<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>I just want to point out a tricky problem with miniDV versus flash/HD based recorders, which is (if you want to skip the long-winded bit below): DV is a compressed format that doesn't automatically trump compression used in modern recorders. It isn't the best. In fact it's a pain in the neck.</div><div><br></div><div>(before I begin, I am always talking about lossy compression here, not lossless compression)</div><div><br></div><div>The video that is transferred from MiniDV cassettes is often called raw. But actually dv is a compressed format, using a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrete_cosine_transform">discrete cosine transform</a> algorithm, with a ratio of 5:1 (or higher). There are other aspects of the format (as it is stored on a tape, not on the computer) that relate to the fact that it is stored on fallible magnetic media, but I won't go into that. When using DV as a format you are using a degraded form. "Digitising" (or transferring to your computer) may or may not also re-compress the original compressed DV stream. But in transferring a recording to your computer, you receive an already compressed file, not an uncompressed file.</div><div><br></div><div>I admit I'm being a little pedantic, but I simply want to point out that when you copy a compressed AVI file (or any of the many other formats out there) off of the flash card or HD drive, you are similarly making a "raw" copy of that file. Really, with digital video, the debate is about the subjective quality of one compression algorithm over another. Unless you are using truly high end gear, no one is using uncompressed video. Lets face it, if you did, it would be completely unmanageable with current tech. Imagine working with a real raw video file. With a frame size of 640x480 (not HD), an hour of footage would be <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_video%23Technical_overview">82.8GB!</a> That's a fair bit more than a DV file.</div><div><br></div><div>Because storage is cheap with magnetic media (but more fallible), and we are now approaching a point where solid state storage is becoming cheaper, there has been a transitional trade off. DV uses a lower compression ratio than most modern consumer and "prosumer" level recorders, but modern formats in modern devices use compression algorithms that produce subjectively better results at much higher compression ratios. Basically, it was cheaper to use worse compression at a lower ratio with cheaper storage (that was more fallible). But DV is a pain in the neck. So we had these transitional forms of storage with DVD based recorders, and Hard Disk recorders, which allowed cheaper storage of larger amounts of data (but both of which are power hungry, produce noise, and are still fallible - but less so than tape). Meanwhile, we're sitting around waiting for Flash based Storage to get cheaper... and now it is. As a side point, the computing power in these devices has also increased, allowing us to apply computationally more complex algorithms.</div><div><br></div><div>What I really like about these newer removable flash-based devices is that they have low power consumption, are less fallible (if you buy good flash cards), and I copy the file off of the card and start using it in ELAN within minutes. Another great thing that all new formats have over DV is that many/most of them can record for more than an hour! I carry two wafer thin flash cards and transfer my data to alternate storage in the field. Perfect but...</div><div><br></div><div>The main problems then are the proliferation of a variety of file formats, the fact that many of them are proprietary and the difficult question of subjective quality of the video compression - which is an equally valid question to pose about DV formatted video.</div><div><br></div><div>So yes, </div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>It has also been sometime since we have revisited what the manufacturers are doing in regards to recording formats.</div></blockquote><br></div><div>that's the tricky bit...</div><div><br></div><div>-tom</div><div><br></div><div><div>On 26/03/2010, at 12:06 PM, Daryn McKenny wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>Your spot on with what you say Aidan as characteristics and challenges with using tape and transferring to hdd asap, we cured our dropped frame scenario with Premiere by making sure our hardware was up to scratch.<br><br>We always carry at least 6 tapes in our camera bag so that when that tape is full there is minimal disruption to continuing the recording. I would presume that would be possible with the Dvd/SD recorders as well but not with the hard drive recorders as you have to empty the hard drive before recording once again.<br><br>It has also been sometime since we have revisited what the manufacturers are doing in regards to recording formats.<br><br>Regards<br> <br>Daryn <br> <br>Arwarbukarl Cultural Resource Association Inc. Trading as:<br>Miromaa Aboriginal Language and Technology Centre<br> <br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Aidan Wilson [<a href="mailto:aidan@usyd.edu.au">mailto:aidan@usyd.edu.au</a>] <br>Sent: Friday, 26 March 2010 11:47 AM<br>To: r-n-l-d<br>Subject: RE: video cameras<br><br>While it is certainly true that raw is best, DV tapes are also highly <br>irritating to work with. I can't tell you the number of times final cut <br>pro has encountered a 'dropped frames' issue when re-digitising from a DV <br>tape. Also, some may be tempted to leave them as is for some time before <br>they digitise/transfer them to a machine, thinking the data is safely <br>stored on a DV tape. The cassettes themselves are as fragile as any <br>physical medium, and the magnetic tape can become affected, allowing the <br>signal to deteriorate. Granted though, it is much better then the <br>deterioration of VHS.<br><br>If you transfer from a HDD camera as soon as you can, then the file will <br>be in .mov format, which is about the best format around when it comes to <br>forward-compatibility and cross-platform-ness, and it will be an exact <br>clone of what's on the camera.<br><br>Both methods yield very good results when used properly (I should <br>emphasise that last point), and it depends on the individual user or group <br>whether they go for tapes or for HD/solid state.<br><br>-- <br>Aidan Wilson<br><br>The University of Sydney<br>+612 9036 9558<br>+61428 458 969<br><a href="mailto:aidan.wilson@sydney.edu.au">aidan.wilson@sydney.edu.au</a><br><br>On Fri, 26 Mar 2010, Daryn McKenny wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">I would like to add to what we as an Aboriginal Language centre would want alongside of supporting what Felicity has said:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">We don't want just audio recordings, I cant emphasise enough how important video is for us when receiving language spoken evidence back to community.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Ourselves only use quality (Sony/Canon) HDDV recorders recording to tape, we will not go to hard drive or any other format yet because of proprietary formats and compressions/codecs used, raw is best and that is what tapes give us.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Regards<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Daryn<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Arwarbukarl Cultural Resource Association Inc. Trading as:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Miromaa Aboriginal Language and Technology Centre<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">P | 02 4927 8222 F | 02 4925 2185 E | daryn@acra.org.au W | www.acra.org.au<http://www.acra.org.au/> & www.miromaa.com.au<http://www.miromaa.com.au/><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">P Please consider the environment before printing this email<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">The Arwarbukarl Cultural Resource Association Inc. respects the privacy of individuals and strives to comply with all areas of the Privacy Act. The contents of this email are intended for the purpose of the person or persons named in either the "To" or "CC" boxes of the email. Any person not named in these boxes in receipt of this email should immediately delete this email and advise the sender accordingly.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">From: Felicity Meakins [mailto:f.meakins@uq.edu.au]<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Sent: Friday, 26 March 2010 9:33 AM<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">To: Laura Robinson; r-n-l-d<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Subject: Re: video cameras<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I haven't been overly impressed with the quality of the hard drive cameras I've looked at. I have a Canon HV30 Black Progressive HDV which rates better than the Sony equivalent. The HDDV quality is infinitely better than the normal DV cameras and better than any of the hard drive cameras I've used. The digitised files require more hard drive space, but it is worth it for the image.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I think that as linguists doing documentation we spend more time worrying about sound quality and good sound equipment and not enough about the quality of footage. We think of it as just adding a bit of context to our recordings rather than considering them as the primary recording that language communities are going to be interested in in decades to come.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">On 26/3/10 6:57 AM, "Laura Robinson" <lcrobinson1@gmail.com> wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Hello all,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I am looking to buy some video cameras for my fieldwork this summer. I'm thinking to get a couple of the new tiny video cameras, plus something more mid-range, like a solid-state video recorder. It would be nice to get away from miniDV if possible, and I was wondering what this list thought of the various kinds of new video cameras on the market?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Thanks,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Laura<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">--<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Laura C. Robinson<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Postdoctoral Researcher<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Department of Linguistics<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">University of Alaska, Fairbanks<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">http://go.alaska.edu/lcrobinson<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>