<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>Hi All,</div>For those of you who haven't come across it amongst the ever-increasing number of resources for lexicography (including the various journals devoted to problems in dictionary design), a very useful resource for smaller endangered languages, which considers in greater depth all of the issues in this thread (dictionary audience dilemmas, how much morphology to represent in entries etc), is the 2002 volume 'Making Dictionaries: Preserving Indigenous Languages of the Americas' edited by Frawley, Hill and Munro. Although it is focused on American languages, I have also found it very useful for the problems thrown up by lexicography for polysynthetic or otherwise agglutinative languages of northern Australia.<div><br></div><div>I just love the introduction, which sets the tone with tales of 'impossibility and thanklessness' evident in 'lexicographic war stories' of dictionary making veterans.<br><div><br></div><div>regards,</div><div>Murray<br><div><br></div><div><br><div><br></div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 17, 125); font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Helvetica" size="2"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 10px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#00117D" face="'Times New Roman'" size="3"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000" face="'Trebuchet MS'"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#00117D" face="'Times New Roman'" size="3"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Helvetica" size="2"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 10px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font style="font: normal normal normal 10px/normal Helvetica; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Trebuchet MS'">Dr Murray Garde </font></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Trebuchet MS'" size="2"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 10px; ">Kunwinjku Language Project</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font style="font: normal normal normal 13px/normal 'Trebuchet MS'; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 10px; ">School of Archaeology and Anthropology</span></font></font></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font style="font: normal normal normal 10px/normal Helvetica; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Trebuchet MS'">Australian National University</font></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font style="font: normal normal normal 10px/normal Helvetica; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Trebuchet MS'">Canberra, ACT 0200, Australia</font></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font style="font: normal normal normal 10px/normal Helvetica; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Trebuchet MS'">P: +61 2 6689 1914</font></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font style="font: normal normal normal 10px/normal Helvetica; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Trebuchet MS'">M: 0439685381</font></font></div></span></span></font></div></font></font></font></span></font></div></div></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div></div></div></div>
<br><div><div>On 24/10/2010, at 8:10 AM, Jenny Green wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><br><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi all<div>Yes, i agree with Alex. The Arandic language dictionaries are very rich in example sentences which exemplify different senses of words and supply much cultural information etc. However, they are written in 'standard' orthography (sometimes a vexed issue nevertheless) and the dictionaries are aimed at everyone - native speakers, linguists, translators, health workers, school staff etc etc. The reality is that it is difficult enough to get any dictionaries published without imagining that there will be multiple tailor-made versions for different audiences. The use of hyphens is part of the orthographic system, and even though there is variation in their use we have all attempted to formulate rules about them (for example monosyllabic suffixes are not hyphenated whereas multisyllabic ones are). If the voluminous text in these dictionaries had been further segmented orthographically on a morpheme by morpheme basis then the text, i think, would be unreadable, longer, and it would certainly confound attempts to use the dictionary as a standard for teaching vernacular literacy. </div><div>I reckon anyway...</div><div>Cheers</div><div>Jenny</div><div><br><div><div>On 23/10/2010, at 3:27 PM, Alex Francois wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
<div text="#660000" bgcolor="#ffffcc">
<span id="IDstID"></span><span id="IDstID"><font size="+1"><font face="Book Antiqua">dear all,<br>
<br>
I entirely agree with Eva and Ruth's points, that example
sentences are indispensable in a dictionary. I could not
conceive writing a dictionary without exemplifying each
separate sense with at least one example -- ideally taken from
spontaneous speech rather than elicitation.<br>
<br>
However, I think Laura initially asked a different question,
which has not been answered fully yet. Her question was
whether example sentences in a dictionary should include the
representation of morpheme boundaries [e.g. <i>ni-abad=na i
arikawat=na</i>] or not [e.g. <i>niabadna i arikawatna.</i>].
This may seem like a trivial question of formatting, but in
some cases (perhaps for some languages more than others) it is
a real issue.<br>
One dimension which Laura did not mention explicitly, but is
relevant at least in the languages I know, is the issue of
what audience is the target of the dictionary. The divide, as
I see it, is essentially that <i>linguists</i> would like to
see morpheme boundaries specified, including with a refined
contrast between affixes and clitics...; BUT that <i>native
speakers</i> (at least in the languages where I work)
typically dislike hyphens and '=' signs etc, and would like
the forms to appear non-parsed. To some readers, these symbols
we use turn out to be as much a hindrance as if we used IPA in
the middle of words.<br>
<br>
So what may seem to be a sensible answer "<i>Include as much
information as you can.</i>" is not necessarily the final
answer, because "more informative" to the linguist might
correlate with "less easy to read" to the native speaker. Cf.
the example cited by Peter Austin. Peter's suggestion (to
have 2 separate solutions, try them out, publish them
separately online etc.) may be worth a try, even if it also
comes with its own shortcomings in terms of duplicating
effort.<br>
<br>
In a similar way, linguists would like all text collections to
include a row of interlinear glosses; but while this is
indeed valuable to the linguist, this is often burdensome to
native speakers (or to anthropologists and other
non-linguists, for that matter), who are often put off by such
formatting choices.<br>
<br>
In some cases at least (depending on the language, the
literacy of native speakers, the nature of the publication...)
one may have to make a painful decision, as to which audience
we want to favour: native speakers (and other non-linguists),
or linguists? This is not a pleasant dilemma, and I
sympathise with Laura's problem.<br>
<br>
best,<br>
Alex.</font></font><br>
<hr width="300" align="left"><span style="color: gray; font-size:
9pt; font-family: monospace;"><b>Dr Alex FRANÇOIS</b><br>
<br>
LACITO - CNRS, France<br>
<br>
2009-2012: Visiting Fellow<br>
Linguistics<br>
School of Culture, History and Language<br>
Australian National University<br>
ACT 0200, Australia<br>
<br>
Home address:<br>
31 Ainsworth St, Mawson, ACT 2607, Australia<br>
ph: [h] (+61)-2-6166 5569<br>
[w] (+61)-2-6125 1664<br>
[mob] (+61)-4-50 960 042<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://alex.francois.free.fr/">http://alex.francois.free.fr</a><br>
</span>
<hr>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>Subject:</td>
<td>Re: example sentences in a dictionary<br>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Sent:</td>
<td>Sat, 23 Oct 2010 12:59:07 +1100<br>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>From:</td>
<td>Ruth Singer <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:r.singer@latrobe.edu.au"><r.singer@latrobe.edu.au></a><br>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>To:</td>
<td>Eva Schultze-Berndt <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Eva.Schultze-Berndt@manchester.ac.uk"><Eva.Schultze-Berndt@manchester.ac.uk></a><br>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Cc:</td>
<td>Laura C Robinson <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lcrobinson@alaska.edu"><lcrobinson@alaska.edu></a>,
Dorothee Beermann <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dorothee.beermann@hf.ntnu.no"><dorothee.beermann@hf.ntnu.no></a>,
r-n-l-d <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:r-n-l-d@unimelb.edu.au"><r-n-l-d@unimelb.edu.au></a><br>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</span>
<blockquote cite="mid:AANLkTim-YRWvFEWz-H6mKF95pKwEp2n78h35y_aqiQ7E@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hi Laura,
I'd have to agree with Eva. I find that its only by adding example
sentences to my dictionary of Mawng (Australia) that it becomes clear
just how many different uses each word can have. So the collection of
example sentences motivate the structure of entries in terms of how
many senses a more 'lexical' word has or how many functions a more
grammatical word has.
Ruth
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Eva Schultze-Berndt
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Eva.Schultze-Berndt@manchester.ac.uk"><Eva.Schultze-Berndt@manchester.ac.uk></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hi Laura,
Thanks for the preview! I think example sentences are actually very helpful
for illustration of the meaning and collocational use of lexical entries
too, not just grammatical morphemes - though there are obviously issues of
time (in preparing the dictionary) and printing costs to be considered.
Best wishes
Eva
Quoting <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lcrobinson@alaska.edu:">lcrobinson@alaska.edu:</a>
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Thanks, everyone. What I am hearing (both on and off the list) is
that, for linguists, the more information the better. So I will fully
parse the example sentences and consider some of the other suggestions
as well.
If folks are interested, I've attached a PDF of the dictionary with
only those entries that have example sentences. These have now been
broken down. You will see that the majority of the entries with
example sentences are grammatical morphemes because I believe those
are the most important to illustrate with examples, and I don't want
to clutter the dictionary with example sentences that don't actually
provide further information to elucidate the entry.
Cheers,
Laura
--
Laura C. Robinson
Postdoctoral Researcher
Department of Linguistics
University of Alaska, Fairbanks
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://go.alaska.edu/lcrobinson">http://go.alaska.edu/lcrobinson</a>
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:51 PM, Dorothee Beermann
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dorothee.beermann@hf.ntnu.no"><dorothee.beermann@hf.ntnu.no></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Dear Laura, Hi all,
I do not know what the best will be in your case, but I
would like to report on our experience with the integration of
annotated examples into a Bono (Abron) dictionary.
(Bono is a dialect of Akan spoken in Ghana).
We combined a Toolbox dictionary and Interlinear glosses edited
in TypeCraft.
The 1500 word dictionary of Akan produced at the University of Ghana
in Legon features example sentences, yet these examples were not
annotated,
and we found them less helpful for learners of Akan and for linguists
which
are the target group of the Legon Akan lexicon.
I have sent you a sample of the dictionary in a separate mail.
If you are interested in the example sentences you might want to look at
them
online by going to <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.typeCraft.org/">www.typeCraft.org</a>.
Use one of the browsers listed on the TypeCraft main page. Go to *Text
search* in the navigation bar on the left of your browser window and
specify'Abron' as language. The annotator and the author of the Bono
lexicon
is Bright Amoah. He did this work for his master's thesis.
Best
Dorothee
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hello all,
I am wondering about formatting example sentences in a dictionary.
This dictionary is aimed at linguistic audiences (it will be bundled
with the grammar, and it is written in English, which no Agta people
speak yet). In the grammar section, I used - for a morpheme boundary
and = for a clitic boundary. So, should the example sentences in the
dictionary be broken down in the same way? Or not at all? Or some
other way (although I would like to do something that isn't too
inconsistent with the grammar section)?
abad
iabad v. tie something around waist
Obus pag-man, ni-abad=na i arikawat=na
OR
Obus pagman, niabadna i arikawatna.
'After chewing betel, he tied his betel nut pack around his waist.'
This sentence has a very typical amount of morphology.
Thanks,
Laura
--
Laura C. Robinson
Postdoctoral Researcher
Department of Linguistics
University of Alaska, Fairbanks
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://go.alaska.edu/lcrobinson">http://go.alaska.edu/lcrobinson</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">--
Dr. Dorothee Beermann, assoc. prof.
Norwegian University of Science and Technology (NTNU)
Dept. of Language and Communication Studies (ISK)
Surface mail to: NO-7491 Trondheim, Norway/Norge
Visit: Dragvoll, Bldg. 4, Floor 5, Room 4504, NO-7049
Tel.: +47 73 596525
E-mail: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dorothee.beermann@hf.ntnu.no">dorothee.beermann@hf.ntnu.no</a>
Homepage:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.hf.ntnu.no/hf/isk/Ansatte/dorothee.beermann/personInfo.html">http://www.hf.ntnu.no/hf/isk/Ansatte/dorothee.beermann/personInfo.html</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">------------------------
Prof. Eva Schultze-Berndt
Head of Discipline, Linguistics and English Language
School of Languages, Linguistics and Cultures
University of Manchester
Oxford Road
Manchester M13 9PL, UK
E-mail: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:eva.schultze-berndt@manchester.ac.uk">eva.schultze-berndt@manchester.ac.uk</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.llc.manchester.ac.uk/subjects/lel/staff/eva-schultze-berndt/">http://www.llc.manchester.ac.uk/subjects/lel/staff/eva-schultze-berndt/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br><div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div>Jenny Green</div><div><a href="mailto:jenny.green@iinet.net.au">jenny.green@iinet.net.au</a></div><div>0393282660</div><div>0428562830</div><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span>
</div>
<br></div></div></blockquote></div><br><div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div>Jenny Green</div><div><a href="mailto:jenny.green@iinet.net.au">jenny.green@iinet.net.au</a></div><div>0393282660</div><div>0428562830</div><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span>
</div>
<br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>