Name for the Western Rgyalrong languages

Thu Nov 21 20:46:34 UTC 2013

Dear Guillaume,

The pronunciation of Siyuewu is vsɘ jo ɰu.   vsɘ jo means 'stone mill' and ɰu
is just an article that makes a place in Lavrung. There used to be a big
mill stone in the village, that's why people named the village vsɘ jo ɰu.
Siyuwwu is the Chinese *pinyin *version*.*

Best,
Gyu Lha

2013/11/21 云帆赖 <canonnier at gmail.com>

> I'm not sure how it is pronounced, but it seems that the Tibetan spelling
> is bsu yo grong (Sun 2000:164).
>
>
> 2013/11/21 Guillaume Jacques <rgyalrongskad at gmail.com>
>
>> Dear Yunfan and Gyulha,
>>
>> For everybody's benefit, what is the pronunciation of Siyuewu in the
>> local language, and is there a Tibetan spelling for it (I guess it would be
>> something like sŋo...).
>>
>> Guillaume
>>
>>
>> 2013/11/21 云帆赖 <canonnier at gmail.com>
>>
>>> Dear Gyu Lha, thank you very much for your message.
>>>
>>> I have definitely heard of Siyuewu and I would very much love to know
>>> more about the dialect there.
>>>
>>> So let's come back to the main purpose of this forum. Gyu Lha, do you
>>> think Khroskyabs an appropriate name for your language?
>>>
>>> Cordially,
>>>
>>> Yunfan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/11/21 yina jody <abayina at gmail.com>
>>>
>>>> My address is abayina at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2013/11/21 yina jody <abayina at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>> Dear 云帆，
>>>>>
>>>>> I am Gyu Lha. Sorry your my delayed reply. I've been having some rough
>>>>> times with my new college life, so things are a little stressful.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, I of course heard about you from my professor Scott Delancey
>>>>> at University of Oregon and I read your papers on Eri Township. I am a
>>>>> freshman at the University of Oregon and I am adjusting to life in US as
>>>>> well.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not sure if you know, but I am from a village called Siyuewu that
>>>>> is close to where you did your research. I am very excited to learn that
>>>>> someone is documenting the Lavrung language.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am looking forward to hearing from you.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Gyu Lha
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2013/11/21 云帆赖 <canonnier at gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Guillaume and all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for supporting khroskyabs.
>>>>>> khroskyabs is pronounced [tʂʰoscæ] or [tʂʰoscæv] by Wobzi speakers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is G.yu Lha in the list? Guillaume, could you let me know her email
>>>>>> address? I think it would be helpful for me to get in touch with her.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yunfan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2013/11/20 Guillaume Jacques <rgyalrongskad at gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Jesse and all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  pronounced by my Rilong consultant) [rəsɲilonba], [lonba] of
>>>>>>>> course is valley, and [rəsɲi] is an alternative loconym for the valley that
>>>>>>>> runs along the Xianshui River, so the Daofu valley. I am still working on
>>>>>>>> the etymology, but that’s all I have for now. However, my consultant told
>>>>>>>> me that she would never say [rəsɲiske].
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is an interesting information. I would really like to know
>>>>>>> where this name comes from.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2. Although the proper Tibetan spelling is rTau, sTau is easy to
>>>>>>>> “derive” from the Tibetan spelling. Most Tibetans pronounce it as [tawu] or
>>>>>>>> similarly. There are many herders in the grasslands that also pronounce it
>>>>>>>> as [stawu]. Conversely, many Tibetans that I have talked to, some living
>>>>>>>> inside Daofu and others not, have spelled rTau as sTau!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, since the languages of the group clearly distinguish between
>>>>>>> rt- and st-, if they pronounce this placename with a st-, the actual
>>>>>>> pronunciation should have precedence over the standard Tibetan spelling.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe we can keep Stau for the language variety (mainly) spoken in
>>>>>>> Rtau county; even if some villages outside of the county speak a similar
>>>>>>> language, this is not a damaging problem. It is very difficult to come up
>>>>>>> with non-ambiguous names that perfectly reflect the language situaiton. For
>>>>>>> instance, the name Japhug is not the best solution for designating the
>>>>>>> language I am studying. These people call themselves kɯrɯ and their
>>>>>>> language kɯrɯskɤt, and the name Japhug tɕɤpʰɯ or tɕʰɤpʰɯ (both
>>>>>>> pronunciatins are attested) designates the Gsarrdzong/Datshang area and
>>>>>>> does not include Gdongbrgyad, whose real name is sɤŋo in Japhug. However,
>>>>>>> people speaking Situ call them "Japhug" as a whole, and thus the name
>>>>>>> Japhug is not that bad for designating specifically this area.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For the subgroup of Rgyalrongic comprising Stau, I is important to
>>>>>>> take time to as other native speakers of these languages whether 'Tre-Hor'
>>>>>>> is fitting or whether it is appropriate; Horske is not specific enough in
>>>>>>> my opinion (it could equally well designate the Horskad varieties in
>>>>>>> Tibet). Another possibily would be Hor-Rgyalrong or Horpa Rgyalrongic.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For Geshizha, the pronunciation appears to be rgefɕe, maybe
>>>>>>> reflecting Dge.bshes instead of the spelling Dge.rtsa I have found
>>>>>>> elsewhere. This language is clearly distinct from Stau, but I am not sure
>>>>>>> which name is better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Khroskyabs seems to me a good alternative to Lavrung (what is the
>>>>>>> pronunciation of this name in Wobzi?). I would like to know what Gyulha
>>>>>>> thinks of it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For the Rgyalrong languages, there is little controversy, but I will
>>>>>>> still take some time to discuss existing names. I think it is obvious to
>>>>>>> everybody that Chinese-based place names like Chabao, Caodeng or Ribu are a
>>>>>>> bad idea: they poorly reflect the local pronounciation (being transmitted
>>>>>>> through the filter of Sichuan Mandarin plus Standard Mandarin plus English)
>>>>>>> and are unable to represent the local consonant clusters.
>>>>>>> Yet, for Situ I think that the Chinese name is the best solution,
>>>>>>> because this language is spoken on a huge area and does not appear to have
>>>>>>> a native or Tibetan name distinguish it as a whole from the northern
>>>>>>> Rgyalrong languages. So Situ is perhaps the only choice we have to
>>>>>>> encompass the whole area (the Tibetan equivalent would be rgyal bzhi or
>>>>>>> something, but it is not a good idea to invent a name that nobody
>>>>>>> understands). Japhug (and Tshobdun, Tawi and Zbu) people call the Situ
>>>>>>> speakers "roŋba" to differentiate them from themselves (while calling
>>>>>>> themselves "roŋwa"...), but this (as the autonym mentioned by Gyulha) is
>>>>>>> not specific enough to serve as a language name, otherwise all languages of
>>>>>>> the area could be called "rongba".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For Japhug I provide a discussion above, and for Tshobdun I think
>>>>>>> there is no problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For Zbu, there are some issues. The Tibetan name of the area
>>>>>>> Rdzong'bur seems to me to be made up/recent, while the local Rgyalrong name
>>>>>>> Zbu is known by everybody. It is not a perfect name, as this language is
>>>>>>> spread over Rdzong'bur and Tawi areas in Mbarkhams and neighbouring areas
>>>>>>> of Ndzamthang, but the alternative proposed by Jackson Sun, the name ɕoʁu
>>>>>>> in Tshobdun designating speakers of Zbu and latinized as "Showu", does not
>>>>>>> seem very appealing to me. Maybe Zbu-Tawi would be better to include all
>>>>>>> subvarieties?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Concerning the capitalization, in former publications I used to
>>>>>>> write rGyalrong and rTau etc but now I believe that this is useless and
>>>>>>> that we should keep the standard capitalization: Zev is right abou that
>>>>>>> (and several Tibetologists have independently pointed out that they did not
>>>>>>> like this practice either).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If some of you have contacts with Stau/Hor or Lavrung/Khroskyabs
>>>>>>> speaking areas, don't hesitate to contact your friends, ask their opinion,
>>>>>>> and post it on the list (you can even post the original message in the
>>>>>>> local language in IPA transcription or in Tibetan translitteration - there
>>>>>>> is no requirement to write exclusively in English on this list, all
>>>>>>> languages of Western Sichuan are allowed).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Guillaume
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Guillaume Jacques
>>>>>>> CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
>>>>>>> http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques
>>>>>>> http://himalco.hypotheses.org/
>>>>>>> http://panchr.hypotheses.org/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> G.yu Lha
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> G.yu Lha
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Guillaume Jacques
>> CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
>> http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques
>> http://himalco.hypotheses.org/
>> http://panchr.hypotheses.org/
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།
>
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-- 
G.yu Lha

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