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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dear list,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> Thank you Joe and Chung-pui Tai
for your responses. I've translated the Chinese responses that were provided
below. I'm not entirely familiar with Chinese linguistic terminology (such as
the difference between a fangyan [dialect] and a tuyu [local dialect?]), and I'm
not sure what these tone numbers mean, but I think I have redendered the gist
correctly.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> The translations are in blue, I
have a comment at the end in red.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Liam Kelley</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>University of Hawaii</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=chungpui@GMAIL.COM href="mailto:chungpui@GMAIL.COM">Chung-pui Tai</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=SEALANG-L@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
href="mailto:SEALANG-L@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG">SEALANG-L@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 20, 2008 1:12
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [SEALANG] Tai-Viet
linguistics question CONTINUED</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>Dear List,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The following is a reply from a friend of mine, who is a native of Debao
county, Guangxi, China. Sorry that he can only write Chinese but not English.
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>------------------------------------------------------</DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">***My main
question, however is this: does it make any linguistic sense that ke could be
a Vietnamese adoption/pronunciation of a Zhuang/Tai term k/koo? Is it logical
for those vowels to change in that manner as the term moves from one language
to another?</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">我认为是极有可能的。一种语言从另外一种语言借用词汇，不可能完全将那个发音也完整地借入，因为不同的语言和方言，其音系都不会相同和吻合，一种语言里从其他语言借入的借词，其发音还是用该语言的近似发音去发的，或者有它的借音规则（如壮语里的汉语老借音和汉语新借音，都和任何汉语方言不完全吻合），不会和原来发音一模一样的。</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">况且，越南语是一种源于南亚语系而又先后深受壮侗语、古汉语熏陶和同化的音调语言，它除了有大量的汉语借词之外，也有不少台语借词，反映在很多地名上用到了台语支语言常用的地名用字，如</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">baan</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">（村）</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">paak</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">（口）</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">doi</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">（山）等。所以这个</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">koo</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">完全可能是从壮语南部方言（岱侬语）借入的。</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt"><FONT
color=#0000ff>I think it's highly possible. When one language borrows
vocabulary from another it cannot completely adopt the pronounciation, because
the sound systems of different languages and dialects are not [entirely]
complimentary. When one language borrows a word from another it will use the
sounds which are close in its own language, or other rules for borrowing
sounds (such as how the sounds of old and new Han Chinese words in Zhuang do
not entirely match those of any Han dialect), and will never be exactly the
same as in the original language.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt"><FONT
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt"><FONT
color=#0000ff>What is more, Vietnamese is an Austroasiatic tonal language
which has been deeply influenced by Zhuang-Kam and old Chinese. In addition to
having borrowed many words from Chinese, it has also borrowed quite a lot from
Tai, which is reflected in the use of common Tai words in many place names,
such as baan (village), paak (mouth), doi (mountain), etc. So it is completely
possible that this "koo" was borrowed from a southern Zhuang dialect (Tay
Nung).</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">And yet one
other minor question: some Zhuang place names (and old place names in Vietnam)
begin with the word duo </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">多</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">
[ta in old Chn, da in Viet.]. According to the Zhuang place name study, this
refers to "land." The SEAlang dictionary has the following entry which seems
the closest in sound:<BR>(WEBRANK:3) tra 1 N a piece (used in reference to
land), portion; plot</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">However, Li
Fang-kuei said that "Siamese also shows tr-, but it exists chiefly in
Cambodian and Sanskrit loans."</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">Question:
What Tai word for "land" could duo </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">多</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">
[ta in old Chn, da in Viet.] be an attempted transcription
of?<BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">关于这个</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">多</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">来记录壮语地名，我以前没有注意过原来这个</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">多</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">字开头的壮语地名原来大部分集中在德靖土语地区，直到今天看到这个提问，我才翻阅了《广西壮语地名选集》，居然发现，里面收录的</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">18</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">个以</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">多</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">字开头的壮语地名，除了一个在田阳县的桥业乡之外，其他全部都是德保县和靖西县的，而且以德保县为主。而就算是田阳县桥业乡的那个</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">多感</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">，也是说德保话的地区，而不是说北壮田阳话的地区。</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">但这个</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">多</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">字所记录的这些地名，除了有一个</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">多吉</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">的</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">多</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">字记录的是德靖土语的</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">toi 3
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">（下面）之外，一个</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">多感</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">的</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">多</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">记录的是德靖土语的</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">
ta 6</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">（河流）之外，</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">其他的</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">16</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">个</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">多</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">全部记录的是德靖土语的</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">
tei 6</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">（地方，</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">land</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">）。但这个</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">多</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">的发音不是</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">
ta/tra</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">，其实是来自汉语借词</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">地方</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">的</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">地</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">，声母韵母和粤语发音都一致，就是</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">tei
6</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">，第六调，德保话调值是</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">33</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">，靖西话调值是</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">324</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">。所以这个问题提到的以汉字</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">多</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">的古音</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">ta</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">之类去推测已经变成了没有任何意义了，实际上大都是</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">
tei 6 </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">而已。如果越南的</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">多</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">字开头的地名实际发音是</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">
ta/da </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">之类，我想也就失去了比较的意义，因为</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">tei</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">是不太可能变成</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">ta/da</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">的。另外，泰语的</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">tra</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">我想李方桂说得没错，应该是来自梵语的借词，而对应壮语</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">tei
6</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">的泰语，实际上是</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">
thi </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">，泰语的</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">哪里</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">的</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">
thi nai </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">的</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"thi"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">，实际上就是壮语的</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">
tei </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">，同样是来自古汉语的</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">地</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">。</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff>As for this word duo/da in Zhuang place names, I had
not previously noticed that these place names that start with duo/da are
concentrated in the area of the Deqing local dialect. After seeing this
question I looked through the "Collection of Zhuang Language Place Names in
Guangxi" and found that there are 18 places which start with the word duo/da.
With the exception of one in Qiaoye Village, Tianyang District, all of the
rest are in Debao and Jingxi Districts, with the majority being in Debao. And
even the place "Duogan" in Qiaoye, Tianyang is where Debao [speakers] live,
not where Northern Zhuang Tianyang [speakers] live.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff>However, the places which this character "duo/da" is
used to record -- with the exceptions of the "duo" in "duoji" which is the
Deqing local dialect for "toi 3" (below/under) and the duo in "duogan" which
is the Deqing local dialect for "ta 6" (river) -- the other 16 are all the
Deqing dialect for "tei 6" (land). However the pronounciation here is not
ta/tra, but is actually borrowed from the Han Chinese word for land "di." The
initial and the vowel is the same in Cantonese - tei 6, the 6th tone. The tone
in the Deqing local dialect is 33 and in Jingxi is 324. Therefore, using the
ancient Chinese pronounciation of "ta" to ascertain is actually meaningless.
In actuality, it is just tei 6.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff>If Vietnamese place names that begin with the
character "<SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT
color=#000000>多</FONT></SPAN>" are pronounced ta/da, then I think that it
cannot be compared, because it is not likely that tei would become ta/da.
Also, I think that Li Fanggui [i.e., Li Fang-Kuei] was correct in regards to
"tra." It was probably borrowed from Sanskrit. And the corresponding
word in T[h]ai for "tei" in Zhuang is actually "thi." The "thi" in the T[h]ai
expression "thi nai" (where) is the Zhuang "tei." They both came from the Han
Chinese term "di."</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT
face=Arial><FONT color=#ff0000> This person's comments about
the fact that we might be dealing with a "Tai" word which was actually
borrowed from Chinese is interesting. The sense that I got in perusing the
book on Zhuang place names is that there is a lot of borrowing from Chinese,
or at least knowledge of Chinese, in Zhuang place
names.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT
face=Arial><FONT color=#ff0000> That said, this person's
comments reflect a view which I find prevalent in the work of Vietnamese
scholars--namely that they use the ethno-political map of the present
to make statements about the past. This person's argument is that if
there is a "Vietnamese" place name which uses the character <SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT
color=#000000>多</FONT></SPAN>, and if the "Vietnamese" pronounce this
"da," then it cannot be from Zhuang because in Zhuang it is tei and tei
would not become da in moving from Zhuang to Vietnamese. The problem is that
these place names most likely do not reflect a linguistic borrowing into
Vietnamese.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"> <FONT
face=Arial color=#ff0000>The way I picture what happened is that there were
Tai peoples living in northern and parts of north-central Vietnam from the BC
period into the thousand years of Chinese control (111 BC to 939 AD). It was
during that period that these place names were likely coined. The characters
which were used to write these place names are probably the result of the
interaction between Chinese administrators and local peoples [in this case Tai
speakers], which I would imagine is exactly how Zhuang place names first made
it into Chinese characters. So if tei became <SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT
color=#000000>多</FONT></SPAN> in Guangxi, the same thing would have occurred
south of there in what is today Vietnam because at the time it was all part of
the same Chinese empire ruled over by the same administrators who were writing
down place names the same way in Chinese characters. Once Vietnam broke away
from China in the 10th century, those written names were maintained and appear
in the works which Vietnamese subsequently wrote.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT
face=Arial color=#ff0000> So yes, using Vietnamese
pronounciations for these characters to guess at the origins of these words is
problematic, but in general, Vietnamese pronounciations are close to old
Chinese and Cantonese, the two languages that might have played a role when
these place names were first recorded in Chinese characters. Another problem
is that Zhuang language place names continued to be coined all of the up
through the 18th century, which leaves the door open to a lot of potential
changes in how this was done. The book which this person cites, and which I
used earlier, is very problematic in that it doesn't give any sense of change
over time in the way in which Zhuang place names may have been rendered in
Chinese characters.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT
face=Arial color=#ff0000> In any case, the
issue is that these place names in Vietnam represent a movement from Tai
to Chinese (and then eventually to Vietnamese by virtue of the fact that the
Vietnamese continued to use place names which the Chinese had coined), not
from Tai to Vietnamese.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left; mso-pagination: widow-orphan"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-font-kerning: 0pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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