From GMC0633 at aol.com  Sat Aug  1 02:24:57 1998
From: GMC0633 at aol.com (Kevin Hannan)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:24:57 EDT
Subject: Lukashenka stages New attacks on our language!
Message-ID: <FRI.31.JUL.1998.222457.EDT.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

I am not sure that a majority of "distinguished Slavists" in America can tell
us in which country the Belorusian language is spoken.  They are, after all, a
notoriously Russocentric lot.

I myself witnessed an embarrasing moment at my own university, which followed
the lecture of a visiting Ukrainian scholar.  Our "distinguished Slavists"
hooted and hollered following the exit of the Ukrainian speaker, who had dared
to criticize Russocentrism and the role of the Russian language in Ukraine.

You can expect litle sympathy for Belarus and the Belarusian language from
sovietological American Slavists, who are desparetely trying to revive the
dying field of Soviet/Russian studies in the US.

Jan Piotrowicki

KatkouskiV at praguemail.rferl.org (KatkouskiV) wrote:
>Dear SEELANGers,

>I was somewhat upset by the fact that the issue of the Belarus language
>did not spur many answers at all. The upcoming battle in the court will
>be probably the worst attack ever on the culture of Belarus, which is
>under a great threat of being absorbed by the Russians. >I thought that
distinguished linguists as most of SEELANGS >members are
would be more responsive, maybe, you would forward protest >letters to
the court.

>From MAILER-DAEMON at linguistlist.org Fri Dec 24 14:43:28 1999
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From GMC0633 at aol.com  Sat Aug  1 02:24:57 1998
From: GMC0633 at aol.com (Kevin Hannan)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:24:57 EDT
Subject: Lukashenka stages New attacks on our language!
Message-ID: <FRI.31.JUL.1998.222457.EDT.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

I am not sure that a majority of "distinguished Slavists" in America can tell
us in which country the Belorusian language is spoken.  They are, after all, a
notoriously Russocentric lot.

I myself witnessed an embarrasing moment at my own university, which followed
the lecture of a visiting Ukrainian scholar.  Our "distinguished Slavists"
hooted and hollered following the exit of the Ukrainian speaker, who had dared
to criticize Russocentrism and the role of the Russian language in Ukraine.

You can expect litle sympathy for Belarus and the Belarusian language from
sovietological American Slavists, who are desparetely trying to revive the
dying field of Soviet/Russian studies in the US.

Jan Piotrowicki

KatkouskiV at praguemail.rferl.org (KatkouskiV) wrote:
>Dear SEELANGers,

>I was somewhat upset by the fact that the issue of the Belarus language
>did not spur many answers at all. The upcoming battle in the court will
>be probably the worst attack ever on the culture of Belarus, which is
>under a great threat of being absorbed by the Russians. >I thought that
distinguished linguists as most of SEELANGS >members are
would be more responsive, maybe, you would forward protest >letters to
the court.



From aisrael at american.edu  Sat Aug  1 13:56:32 1998
From: aisrael at american.edu (Alina Israeli)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:56:32 -0400
Subject: Lukashenka stages New attacks on our language!
Message-ID: <SAT.1.AUG.1998.095632.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>I am not sure that a majority of "distinguished Slavists" in America can tell
>us in which country the Belorusian language is spoken.  They are, after all, a
>notoriously Russocentric lot.
>
>I myself witnessed an embarrasing moment at my own university, which followed
>the lecture of a visiting Ukrainian scholar.  Our "distinguished Slavists"
>hooted and hollered following the exit of the Ukrainian speaker, who had dared
>to criticize Russocentrism and the role of the Russian language in Ukraine.
>
>You can expect litle sympathy for Belarus and the Belarusian language from
>sovietological American Slavists, who are desparetely trying to revive the
>dying field of Soviet/Russian studies in the US.
>
>Jan Piotrowicki
>
>KatkouskiV at praguemail.rferl.org (KatkouskiV) wrote:
>>Dear SEELANGers,
>
>>I was somewhat upset by the fact that the issue of the Belarus language
>>did not spur many answers at all. The upcoming battle in the court will
>>be probably the worst attack ever on the culture of Belarus, which is
>>under a great threat of being absorbed by the Russians. >I thought that
>distinguished linguists as most of SEELANGS >members are
>would be more responsive, maybe, you would forward protest >letters to
>the court.

I believe one could find many faults with American Slavists, but genocide
and linguocide are not among them.

As far as I remember the original posting by Mr. KatkouskiV, a dissident
paper was using an obsolete system of spelling for which it is being
prosecuted. So the problem is two-fold: 1. spelling; and 2. dissent.

Germany just underwent a spelling change and the High Court just upheld it
against the protest of the parents of Bavaria (or something like that, I am
not a lawyer). What would happen in Germany if a publication would start or
continue using a system which is no longer considered a norm? What does the
law say about it?

History has shown that it is best not to break any laws while being
dissident in a repressive society. I compare it with Soviet dissidents who
were prosecuted for drug use. Of course they were singled out because of
being dissidents. But how can one defend the drug use if it is illegal?

Alina Israeli


From KatkouskiV at praguemail.rferl.org  Sat Aug  1 17:14:51 1998
From: KatkouskiV at praguemail.rferl.org (KatkouskiV)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 17:14:51 U
Subject: Lukashenka stages New attacks on our language!
Message-ID: <SAT.1.AUG.1998.171451.U.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Germany just underwent a spelling reform, and the Supreme Court upheld it
>in protest from the parents from Bawaria if I am not mistaken. What would
>happen in Germany, if the old spelling was used in some publications? They
>probably would get sued and if they are periodicals tehir licences might be
>revoke. I don't know, I am not a lawyer.

Belarus' and Germany's spelling issues are very different. In Belarus during
the Stalin's times the authrities fought against nationalism and one of their
attacks was aimed at the language: the 1933 decree introduced the new rules
of spelling that made Belarusan a lot closer to Russian. The differences
are not huge, but substantial. The two big issues are (1) soft consonants
and (2) spelling of foreign words (Europa, not Ieuropa like in Russian;
Hazeta, not Gazieta; Mit, not Mif; Apateoz, not Apafeoz, ).

There are several smaller
linguistiic issues which reflect how people speak, one of them for example
the endings in Genitiv (zhyhary Miensku, not zhyhary Mienska). Also the
usage of "u neskladavae" and "i karotkae" is different. And, finally, certain
vocabulary was banned.

Overall, the current (1933) version is called Nrkomauka and is a russified
version of Belarusan.  Tarashkevica is the true language of the people that
reflects (1) historical reality and (2) how native speakers really pronounce
/talk.

Now. The legal issue is very clear. The law on mass media (Zakon Ab Druku)
has very vague sentence about the language: "All mass media must use
commonly accepted (ahulna pryniatyja) norms of the language." Nowhere in
this or other legal documents it is said what should be considered
"commonly accepted." Considering total disregard of Lukashenko's regime
towards democratic approaches, it is clear that they will use this
"commonly accepted" term to their advatage -- choosing the meaning they
want.

>A dissident movement should follow the letter of the law. Then it becomes
>obvious that the oppressive regime is trying to discriminate against the
>opponents.

Read the previous paragrpaph, and you will see that the law has not been
broken, because the law does not answer the questions of spelling.

>Similarly, when dissidents in the Soviet Union were prosecuted for the drug
>use, what was there to say? They did use the drugs. And the fact that they
>were singled out because they were dissidents could hardly be used as a
>legal defence.

Alina, you must be totally out of touch with the situation, if you sincerely
believe what you wrote. The only intelligent oppositional newspaper there
is is Nasha Niva. The people that work there are of great integrity and
intellect. They manage to publish the newspaper that is ultra oppositional
and very nationalistic, and AT THE SAME TIME very calm, very considerate,
witty, and oriented towards intellectuals.


>
>Alina Israeli
>
>

 Uladzimir Katkouski
---------------------------------------
       e-mail: KatkouskiV at praguemail.rferl.org
h-page: http://www.aubg.bg/cj/~vlk960/
h-page: http://members.xoom.com/ulad/
----------------------------------------


From SRogosin at aol.com  Sun Aug  2 00:38:10 1998
From: SRogosin at aol.com (Serge Rogosin)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 20:38:10 EDT
Subject: internet explorer and russian
Message-ID: <SAT.1.AUG.1998.203810.EDT.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Is it possible to use Internet Explorer to search for Russian-language
documents on the Web?  I'm sure there's a way, but I haven't been able to get
I.E. to recognize Russian in any coding. (Or more accurately, I can type
Russian in the search box, but this never produces any hits.) Any advice would
be much appreciated.

Serge
__________________
Serge Rogosin
93-49 222 Street
Queens Village, NY 11428
tel. & fax (718)479-2881


From natalia.pylypiuk at ualberta.ca  Sun Aug  2 02:44:49 1998
From: natalia.pylypiuk at ualberta.ca (Natalia Pylypiuk)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:44:49 -0700
Subject: A conference on "language management" policies.
In-Reply-To: <n1310130907.18199@praguemail.rferl.org>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.AUG.1998.194449.0700.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

1) In a message sent by  Kevin Hannan <GMC0633 at aol.com>, Jan Piotrowicki wrote:

>I myself witnessed an embarrasing moment at my own university, which followed
>the lecture of a visiting Ukrainian scholar.  Our "distinguished Slavists"
>hooted and hollered following the exit of the Ukrainian speaker, who had dared
>to criticize Russocentrism and the role of the Russian language in Ukraine.

2) In his response to Alina Israeli, Uladzimir Katkouski
<e-mail: KatkouskiV at praguemail.rferl.org> made the following comment:

> In Belarus during
>the Stalin's times the authrities fought against nationalism and one of their
>attacks was aimed at the language: the 1933 decree introduced the new rules
>of spelling that made Belarusan a lot closer to Russian.

***

I would like to know at which university occurred the incident described by
Mr. Piotrowicki?

Let me point out that the case of (pardon the euphemism) "language
management" in Belarus' under Stalin was not an isolated case.  In Ukraine
similar policies were formulated by P. Postyshev, V. Balickii and
L.Kaganovich whose credentials as linguists (historical or otherwise)
remain to be established.  In the seventies and eighties the institutes of
linguistics throughout the USSR diligently continued such "managerial"
work.  If their actual effect had not been so tragic, some of the articles
published by these august bodies could be considered entertaining.

It appears that a conference devoted to the comparative study of "language
management" policies throughout the USSR, including non-Slavic republics /
linguistic communities, may yield interesting results.  To the best of my
knowledge, these questions -- thus far -- have been studied in isolation.

SEELANhivtsi  interested in the activities of Postyshev, Balickii and
Kaganovich between 1933-1941 may wish to consult *The Ukrainian Language in
the First Half of the Twentieth Century (1900-1941)* by the dean of
Ukrainian linguistics, George Y. Shevelov (Columbia University, emeritus).


Vitaiu!
Natalia Pylypiuk

****************************************************

Natalia Pylypiuk, Associate Professor,
Department of Modern Languages & Cultural Studies:
                                  Germanic, Romance and Slavic
200 Arts Building,  University of Alberta
Edmonton, AB T6G 2E6
Canada

****************************************************

office phone & voice mail:     (403)  492 - 3498
departmental fax:                      (403)  492 - 9106

e-mail address:                       natalia.pylypiuk at ualberta.ca

www.ualberta.ca/~uklanlit/Homepage.html

****************************************************


From yamato at yt.cache.waseda.ac.jp  Sun Aug  2 04:01:04 1998
From: yamato at yt.cache.waseda.ac.jp (Yoshimasa Tsuji)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 13:01:04 +0900
Subject: Lukashenka stages New attacks on our language!
In-Reply-To: <v01540b02b1e89329bd22@[208.220.24.20]> (message from Alina
 Israeli on Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:56:32 -0400)
Message-ID: <SUN.2.AUG.1998.130104.0900.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Hello,
Alina Israeli has written
  Germany just underwent a spelling change and the High Court just upheld it
  against the protest of the parents of Bavaria (or something like that, I am
  not a lawyer). What would happen in Germany if a publication would start or
  continue using a system which is no longer considered a norm? What does the
  law say about it?

  History has shown that it is best not to break any laws while being
  dissident in a repressive society. I compare it with Soviet dissidents who
  were prosecuted for drug use. Of course they were singled out because of
  being dissidents. But how can one defend the drug use if it is illegal?

It is a very sad political fact that some governments impose "the correct
language" on their people. The need that official government documents be
coded in a well defined language is quite different from its extension that
citizens are forbidden to use other codings. Post-war Japan saw a
major spelling change and a substantial discouragement of ideographic
symbols and I am of the opinion that the command of the Japanese language
in general is at a miserable standard. The root of the problem is, in my
view, the lack of understanding that the writing system (simple, short,
phonetic system would be convenient) and the reading system (redundant,
oppositional, complicated, sometimes historical/etymological system
will help one to understand readily) are diagonally opposed entities.

Russia changed her spelling system in November 1918 as people
had ceased to write hard signs at the end of words and had difficulty
to guess whether to write <jat'> or <e>. It is absurd to force uneducated
people to write properly, but it is quite another to force educated people to
throw away the proper way of spelling/punctuation/hyphenation. The traditional
spelling was somewhat difficult to master, but was not dificult to read
at all. Moreover, it was far easier to understand as it was full of
oppositionals ("ee, eja", "oni, onje", "ljesa, les", &c.)
  It appears to be that they have thrown away the mother types ("litery")
of "i", "jat'" and hard signs during the ninety twenties ("thita" was
already hard to find -- many typewriters didn't have it right from the
beginning --, izhica was primarily used for a substitute of Roman numerical
five, now replaced by a Y-like U). But that was not enough to force
the "correct spelling". As a matter of fact, we have seen Orthografichekij
Slavar' published almost every year with small revisions, but we also
know that most of the publishers and printing shops paid little attention
to the revised, "most correct" spellings. People were taught that naturalized
words did not have repetitive consonants --"ofis" instead of "offis"-- but
why "Rossija" had two esses no one could possibly answer (because she was
great?). Russia had issued many, many laws regulating citizen's life, but
being "proizvol'noe" too much,
not all the laws were observed in the same effectiveness. When the Academy
of Sciences published two versions of Russian dictionaries (the seventeen
volume thing and the four volume thing, I remember), the copies first
printed in the same year did have different spellings/punctuation/hyphenation!
The matter was more serious when one printing shop was in Leningrad and
another was in Moscow. But we all know that no one was punished for violating
the law. (*endnote)

It is wrong to assume that linguists are interested only in official
languages enforced by Staatsgewalt(law, in English?) Accent researchers
and dialectologists are abundant, minority language researchers are
"too many" (we may have more Ainu scholars than Ainophones by now).
Censor system may force publications to be coded in an official
language, but no one can force people to speak/write "properly".
Languages/accents/dialects are easy to corrupt, but are hard to die.

Emigre publications went on using traditional coding as they lived
outside the domain of the evils. It is a pleasant memory of mine to
have met Father Nadson in London years ago and to be shown the Bible
DTP'ed in Belarusan by his Macintosh.

Alina, I think, we are not in a position to advise others whether
they ought to obey the law or not. The fact that some dissidents
ended in a political failure by breaking a law means nothing.
Some people would prefer to act as dissidents rather than claim to
be one behaving as conformists. All those depend on the political
judgement of everyone, not mine nor yours. And mind you, the end result
may not always justify the means.

Cheers,
Tsuji

------
*endnote
I may have mentioned this already, but an intersting story of GOST:
The GOST says they have ratified ISO and thus Russians are supposed to
use ISO-8259-9 (something like that, if you wish to be accurate) for
digital communication. I asked the "dezhurnaja" of the reference counter,
will one be punished by not observing GOST?, & was taught, "yes,
certainly". & I inquired, "This data base of GOST is coded in Microsoft's
private encoding, neither in GOST nor its previous version called KOI.
Will the user of this data base be punished?" I am afraid I sounded like
a nasty bureaucrat of Czarist era as she obviously took me for being unserious.
  Japan is not exception either: a recent JIS (Japan Industrial Standard)
defined some typographic rules, but the official document that printed
those rules ignored all this completely!! ha-hah-hah.


From jdclayt at uottawa.ca  Sun Aug  2 16:05:44 1998
From: jdclayt at uottawa.ca (J. Douglas Clayton)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 12:05:44 -0400
Subject: Lukashenka stages New attacks on our language!
Message-ID: <SUN.2.AUG.1998.120544.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Dear Seelangers:

The debate over Belorusian orthography has proved to me one thing: that in
Belarus herrings are still red. Surely the real issue is that a repressive
regime is using the orthographic stick to beat dissenters. They are not
being persecuted for using a particular language norm, but because they
challenge the squalid neo-Soviet regime of Lukashenka. The imposition of a
spelling norm, the dismissal of the head of a Belarusian-language school,
the beating by police of young people when they speak Belarusian - this is
all the depressingly archaic power-politics of a neo-Stalinist dictator.

Our colleague Mr Katkouski is right - Slavists should be protesting all
this, in the name of human rights and intellectual freedom. My best hope is
that Mr Lukashenka will soon be swept into the ash-can of history. My worst
fear - and it is one that we should all share, is that his ideas spread to
other areas of the FSU, including the Russian Federation, where he has a
very considerable following. That could have very grave consequences for
even Russocentric Slavists.

Doug Clayton

*****************************
J. Douglas Clayton                         Tel. 613-562-5800 Ex. 3765 (office)
Professor                                       613-241-1782 (home)
Modern Languages & Literatures             Fax  613-562-5138
University of Ottawa
Box 450 Stn A
Ottawa ON K1N 6N5  Canada           http://aix1.uottawa.ca/~jdclayt/index.html


From dbulgak at pop3.utoledo.edu  Sun Aug  2 19:21:12 1998
From: dbulgak at pop3.utoledo.edu (R&D B.)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 12:21:12 -0700
Subject: Lukashenka stages New attacks on our language!
Message-ID: <SUN.2.AUG.1998.122112.0700.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

> the beating by police of young people when they speak Belarusian -


Wow! is it really so??


From konecny at bcf.usc.edu  Sun Aug  2 16:37:31 1998
From: konecny at bcf.usc.edu (Mark Konecny)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 12:37:31 EDT
Subject: russocentrism
Message-ID: <SUN.2.AUG.1998.123731.EDT.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Dear Seelangers,

With regard to Jan Piotrowicki, I have a few comments of my own.
1. The pronouncement of the demise of Soviet/Russian studies in the US is
premature. The end of the Soviet era has certainly changed the financial
footing of departments and student interest, but the relevance of the field
and the impending (perhaps cataclysmic) changes in Russia assure the
scholarly study of Russian language and history will continue.

2. Russocentrism (which, as Jan rightly points out) is rampant in our
field. This state of affairs is a result of the influence of the influx of
Russians into the field and the subsequent absorption of the prejudices of
the teacher by the student. However, equally as important is the existence
of a canon of work in Russian that is readily available to scholars. Until
recently have there been any Ukrainian or Belorusian publishers
distributing in the West? There has also been a paucity of scholarly works
on these languages; if there is to be some sort of change in the status
quo, there must be a more intense promotion of these ignored culture
(perhaps using Harvard's Ukrainian Studies center as a model). But
realistically because of sheer weight of numbers, Russian will always be
more widely taught than other slavic languages just as Spanish is more
widely taught than Portuguese.

3. Most disturbing for me (and what prompted me to write) was the crude
nationalism which permeats Jan Piotrowicki's snide letter. Even if I grant
the veracity of his argument, I can in no way tolerate his tone. The
destruction of panslavism in the postsoviet world should not be mirrored in
the academic discourse of Slavic studies. What will be next, arm wrestling
to prove the cultural superiority of your favorite nation?


Mark Konecny, Institute of Modern Russian Culture.
konecny at bcf.usc.edu


From aisrael at american.edu  Sun Aug  2 18:14:39 1998
From: aisrael at american.edu (Alina Israeli)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 14:14:39 -0400
Subject: Lukashenka stages New attacks on our language!
Message-ID: <SUN.2.AUG.1998.141439.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Yoshimasa Tsuji wrote:

>Alina, I think, we are not in a position to advise others whether
>they ought to obey the law or not.

I am afraid the discussion is less about the repressive government in
Belarus' and more about me. In this capacity I would like to suggest the
following:

1. Writing systems exist not so much for the pleasure of linguists but in
order for people to cummunicate easily in written form. Spelling rules
should not be overly complicated. Let me offer one idiosyncratic rule: a
Russian child first learns that spelling is morphological, in other words,
the stress matters: molodOj, molOzhe, mOlod, and then that it does not
matter: rOs but rasti.

Linguists have other ways of reconstructing etymologies without
complicating the lives of those who just need to learn to read and write.

2.The fact that

>Post-war Japan saw a
>major spelling change and a substantial discouragement of ideographic
>symbols and I am of the opinion that the command of the Japanese language
>in general is at a miserable standard.

may be due to the fact that many more people are literate after the war
than before the war. In a similar fashion, many American intellectuals
complain that romances make it to the top of the best-sellers lists, while
before the war it was Hemingway. Well, this may be the result of higher
literacy and the fact that many more people read, and Daniele Steel
represents the taste of the masses.

3.
>The fact that some dissidents
>ended in a political failure by breaking a law means nothing.

Hardly nothing. Laws exist to be obeyed, and Lukashenka's regime is the
first to break them. The ruler and his regime can be ostracized for doing
that. The fact that most countries have some bad laws on the books does not
mean that one should favor anarchy. Bad laws should be exposed as such.

>Some people would prefer to act as dissidents rather than claim to
>be one behaving as conformists.

You don't need to remind me of that.

>And mind you, the end result
>may not always justify the means.

Here we are totally in agreement.

Alina Israeli


From brifkin at facstaff.wisc.edu  Mon Aug  3 02:59:23 1998
From: brifkin at facstaff.wisc.edu (Benjamin Rifkin)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:59:23 -0500
Subject: Fred Patton
Message-ID: <SUN.2.AUG.1998.215923.0500.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Dear Colleagues:

I'm trying to track down Fred Patton.  Can anyone tell me how to reach him?

Please respond off-list.

Thank you!

Ben Rifkin

////////////////////////////////////////

Benjamin Rifkin

Associate Professor of Slavic Languages
Coordinator of Russian-Language Instruction

Department of Slavic Languages & Literatures
University of Wisconsin-Madison
1432 Van Hise Hall, 1220 Linden Dr.
Madison, WI  53706  USA

voice:  608/262-1623
fax:  608/265-2814
e-mail:  brifkin at facstaff.wisc.edu

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\


From yamato at yt.cache.waseda.ac.jp  Mon Aug  3 04:49:13 1998
From: yamato at yt.cache.waseda.ac.jp (Yoshimasa Tsuji)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:49:13 +0900
Subject: Lukashenka stages New attacks on our language!
In-Reply-To: <v01540b00b1ea06b247a5@[208.220.25.86]> (message from Alina
 Israeli on Sun, 2 Aug 1998 14:14:39 -0400)
Message-ID: <MON.3.AUG.1998.134913.0900.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Dear Alina Israeli,

You write

  1. Writing systems exist not so much for the pleasure of linguists but in
  order for people to cummunicate easily in written form. Spelling rules
  should not be overly complicated. Let me offer one idiosyncratic rule: a
  Russian child first learns that spelling is morphological, in other words,
  the stress matters: molodOj, molOzhe, mOlod, and then that it does not
  matter: rOs but rasti.
  Linguists have other ways of reconstructing etymologies without
  complicating the lives of those who just need to learn to read and write.

I would like to say it is always the linguist who would invent "better
spelling/grammar" claiming the new rule will be easier to read/write,
truer to etymology, blah, blah, blah.  Has there been a good
reform in history? I say, "color" for "colour" was arguably better,
but "debt" for "dette" was definitely not (but changing back to "dette" now
or in the future is far worse).
  I don't know the right term for those people in English, but most of the
language teachers are there to inculcate nationalism coded in the official
language they teach. However, there are also linguists who are interested
in non-prescriptive approach to the languages (i.e. scientists of the
language, they are). The number of the latter is smaller, but you cannot
possibly compare two totally different categories.

  2.The fact that

  >Post-war Japan saw a
  >major spelling change and a substantial discouragement of ideographic
  >symbols and I am of the opinion that the command of the Japanese language
  >in general is at a miserable standard.

  may be due to the fact that many more people are literate after the war
  than before the war. In a similar fashion, many American intellectuals
  complain that romances make it to the top of the best-sellers lists, while
  before the war it was Hemingway. Well, this may be the result of higher
  literacy and the fact that many more people read, and Daniele Steel
  represents the taste of the masses.

No, not in the least.  Perhaps America may have improved by
importing brainy people from Nazi Germany and Communist East Europe, but
no such thing has happened in Japan. In pre-war Japan, most of the
people went to school five years only and did not know many ideographic
symbols, so publication for the masses ALWAYS carried phonetic notes for
every ideographic symbols. After the reform, while complicated ideographic
symbols were banned from publication, those phonetic notes also disappeared
as children are supposed to learn all the basic symbols at school whose
period had been extended to the age of fifteen. The result is that most
children do not master those basic symbols (1800 or more!), thus cannot
read literature with ease, and even when they guess how to read a word
in question, they cannot guess the meaning because the ideographic
symbol is usually corrupted.
  I am saying that while pre-war generation kept on learning ideographic
symbols for life by simply reading books, post-war youths have been
deprived of the privilege of learning the language outside school.
They spend more time at school, yet they are definitely less literate.
I am convinced that all this resulted from the unawareness of the fact
that the modern Japanese language can survive only as a written
language. Let me explain a bit further. The Japanese language has
very few phonetic units (five vowels and fourteen consonants, totalizing
to 70 or less syllables). The Story of Genji, the first novel, contains
virtually all the Japanese vocabulary which didn't exceed 12,000. All
the new additions to the language were done by way of using ideographic
symbols which phonetically made sense only for the Chinese who have so
many phonemes and tones.
   For example, moustache, beard, and whisker can be expressed
by three different ideographic symbols but are pronounced the same way as
the original Japanese didn't distinguish them. And as none of these
ideographic symbols are taught at school, when a youth reads one of
these they will easily guess it has something to do with "hair", but
fail to read it as phonetic hints are no longer printed after the reform.

   Combined with the modern tendency that television becoming the major
source of information, the inherent deficiency of the Japanese language
that it is a poor oral language and the wrong language reforms, there is
very little chance for literacy to grow in Japan. (Just imagine if you
could readily understand a person who uses the same word for "God, paper,
upside, hair, adding flavour, chewing, bite, laird, wife, ..."). The
ambiguous notion that it is something up above is definitely inadequate
in modern life.

Cheers,
Tsuji


From jkornbla at facstaff.wisc.edu  Mon Aug  3 19:27:59 1998
From: jkornbla at facstaff.wisc.edu (Judith Deutsch Kornblatt)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:27:59 -0500
Subject: visiting position at UW
Message-ID: <MON.3.AUG.1998.142759.0500.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

I apologize for posting the following announcement for the second time, but
I recognize that many SEELANGERS may not receive their mail while on
vacation over the summer.  I will post it once more before the deadline.
Please inform any qualified candidates.  Thank you, and have a productive
end to the summer.

The Department of Slavic Languages and Literature at the University of
Wisconsin-Madison anticipates a 100% time Visiting Assistant Professor or ABD
Lecturer (depending upon qualifications) opening in Russian for Spring
semester, 1998-99,
beginning January 8, 1999, to teach three of the following or similar courses:
Acmeism and Futurism; Survey in Russian Literature: 20th Century;
Third-year Russian; Women in Russian Literature; Topics in Slavic Literature.
Native or near-native fluency in both English and Russian required.  Minimum
ABD; college-level teaching experience required. Send letter, CV, and names of
3 references by August 20, 1998 to Judith Deutsch Kornblatt, Chair, Dept.
of Slavic, 1432 Van Hise Hall, 1220 Linden Dr., Madison, WI 53706.
UW-Madison is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer.  Women
and minorities are encouraged to apply.  Unless confidentiality is requested in
writing, information regarding the applicants must be released upon
request.  Finalists cannot be guaranteed confidentiality.


From brifkin at facstaff.wisc.edu  Tue Aug  4 01:53:17 1998
From: brifkin at facstaff.wisc.edu (Benjamin Rifkin)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 20:53:17 -0500
Subject: AATSEEL Awards
Message-ID: <MON.3.AUG.1998.205317.0500.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Dear Colleagues:

The chair of the AATSEEL Awards Committee, Jane Gary Harris, has asked me to
post this message to SEELANGs.

The AATSEEL awards committee welcomes nominations for the following awards
(to be given in December 1998 at the annual conference in San Francisco):

        (1) Award for Excellence in Teaching at the Secondary Level;
        (2) Award for Excellence in Teaching at the Postsecondary Level;
        (3) Joe Malik Award for Outstanding Service to AATSEEL;
        (4) Award for Distinguished Contribution to the Profession; and
        (5) the Award for Outstanding Achievement in Scholarship.

All nominations should be sent to Jane Gary Harris by e-mail, surface mail,
telephone or fax:

Jane Gary Harris
University of Pittsburgh
Slavic Languages & Literatures
Pittsburgh, PA  15260

phone:  (412) 624-5708
fax:  (412) 624-9714
e-mail:  jgharris+ at pitt.edu

Nominations should specify the achievements of the person nominated.

Thank you for thinking about these awards.

Sincerely,


Ben Rifkin

////////////////////////////////////////

Benjamin Rifkin

Associate Professor of Slavic Languages
Coordinator of Russian-Language Instruction

Department of Slavic Languages & Literatures
University of Wisconsin-Madison
1432 Van Hise Hall, 1220 Linden Dr.
Madison, WI  53706  USA

voice:  608/262-1623
fax:  608/265-2814
e-mail:  brifkin at facstaff.wisc.edu

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\


From gthomson at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca  Tue Aug  4 08:29:46 1998
From: gthomson at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (Greg Thomson)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:29:46 +0300
Subject: Research in RSL inflectional morphology
Message-ID: <TUE.4.AUG.1998.112946.0300.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Greetings SEELangsers. I am doing research on the acquisition of inflection
in Russian as a second language. This grew out of an interest in the
acquisition of L2 inflectional morphology in general. When I started I did
not know Russian, and thus I have been learning Russian from scratch,
starting with a background in SLA, psycholinguistics, and linguistic field
methods. This past spring I conducted an experiment with 37 non-native
speakers of Russian (and 13 native controls) aimed at detecting sensitivity
to inflectional morphology during listening comprehension. Subjects
attempted to detect errors in three conditions: Meaning-Focused Listening,
Form-Focused Listening, and a pencil and paper task. They were divided into
two groups: intermediate (17 subjects) and advanced (20) based on the
number of years they have been learning Russian. All were residents of St.
Petersburg and regular users of Russian as a second language. My assumption
was that if a subject is able to understand a sentence but cannot detect an
inflectional error, than s/he probably is not making much use of inflection
in that particular context and function. The evidence from the first
experience points to a very prolonged period of development, and seems to
suggest that even solid metalinguistic knowledge of the basic "rules" of
case and aspect (the two categories tested), often does not develop well
apart from the global development of proficiency. This may help to account
for the frustration (and often pain) experienced by non-native speakers of
Russian who are attempting to "get all the endings right" in their spoken
production from a very early stage, since they may not yet have developed
an underlying language processing system to support these efforts.

Anyway, I have written up the first experiment as a paper. If you are
actively involved in research into Russian as a second language and might
be able to give me feedback, I would be happy to mail you a copy, while
copies last. Since my background is not specifically in RSL nor even in
Russian linguistics, I'm feeling a need for feedback from people who have
worked longer in those areas, especially RSL.

Cordially,
Greg

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
 Nothing in my hand I bring.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Greg Thomson, Ph.D. Candidate (gthomson at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca)
Dept. of Linguistics, Univ. of Alberta,
4-32 Assiniboia Hall, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2E7, CANADA
Phone: 7-812-246-35-48 (Russia)


From gadassov at csi.com  Tue Aug  4 10:33:29 1998
From: gadassov at csi.com (Adassovsky)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:33:29 +0100
Subject: Lukashenka stages New attacks on our language!
In-Reply-To: <199808030449.NAA08120@tsuji.yt.cache.waseda.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.AUG.1998.113329.0100.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Dear Tsuji!

You wrote :

>  I don't know the right term for those people in English, but most of the
>language teachers are there to inculcate nationalism coded in the official
>language they teach.

Do you really think so ?

 However, there are also linguists who are interested
>in non-prescriptive approach to the languages (i.e. scientists of the
>language, they are). The number of the latter is smaller, but you cannot
>possibly compare two totally different categories.

There are two categories of people : language teachers, who .... teach a
language, and linguists, who study as scientists either a particular
language or Language.
A language teacher can't teach anything : he must obey  a norm, as in
English the "Standart University English".
A linguist, who may teach linguistics, but whose primarily role is not
teaching some given language, studies language, and there is many ways of
doing that.
Now, what is, for a given language, the norm for teachers, and who rules it ?
Certainly not politicians (cultural dictatorship)
The process for some language evolution may be the following :
1) People speak
2) Writers write
3) Some independant cultural organization (as the French "Academie
Frangaise") endorse the two former.
After that the given language evolution becomes part of the norm.
Of course this process is difficult each time there is lack of literature
(In particular with oral languages, Africa, Polynesia, etc...).
Russian, Belorussian, Ukrainian languages come from a common root, but the
fact is that Russian has the richest literature. To establish firmly a
language, people must speak it (at first), and writers must write it (at
second). No government can make things go faster than this natural process,
and a true linguist must stay on neutral observation. Science is not
politics.
I wonder why politics try so often to use one language as a mark for
nationalism. Look at Switzerland : 4 languages (at least) and political
unity without problem.

Beside, I have a question for anyone who may answer :

A French firm will send several executives in Japan (in next january).
Before going there, these executives want to study Japanese culture and
civilization.
What is the better way to doing that?

Georges.


From KatkouskiV at praguemail.rferl.org  Tue Aug  4 12:26:07 1998
From: KatkouskiV at praguemail.rferl.org (KatkouskiV)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:26:07 U
Subject: Lukashenka stages New attacks on our language!
Message-ID: <TUE.4.AUG.1998.122607.U.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>> the beating by police of young people when they speak Belarusian -
>
>Wow! is it really so??

The reference is to othe recent _reported_ beating that happenned
sometimes this spring. It got some publicity, even though there are
many other undocumented occassions. Here is that story in short.

Young people were walking late in the evening through the
Kamarouski Kirmash (the main market). They were speaking
Belarusan. The market guards came to them and asked for
smth. (ID's I think). The guys answered something in Belarusan,
and in response the guards growled: "Can't you speak a normal
language?" (meaning Russian). After short verbal exchange they
beat them up.

The guards were also employed by the newspaper Slavyansky Nabat
(Slavic Bell Tolls), that is famous for its extreme panslavism.

The case got some publicity thanks to the newsline staff of RFE/RL.
But there are many other occassions when policemen on the
streets act in the same way, stopping people from speaking
Belarusan. And nobody knows.


---------------------------------------
mailto: KatkouskiV at praguemail.rferl.org
mailto: vlk960 at cj.aubg.bg
h-page: http://www.aubg.bg/cj/~vlk960/
h-page: http://members.xoom.com/ulad/
---------------------------------------


From yamato at yt.cache.waseda.ac.jp  Tue Aug  4 12:31:10 1998
From: yamato at yt.cache.waseda.ac.jp (Yoshimasa Tsuji)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:31:10 +0900
Subject: Lukashenka stages New attacks on our language!
In-Reply-To: <l03110700b1ebadea20f9@[195.232.67.204]> (message from Adassovsky
 on Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:33:29 +0100)
Message-ID: <TUE.4.AUG.1998.213110.0900.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

I wrote
  >  I don't know the right term for those people in English, but most of the
  >language teachers are there to inculcate nationalism coded in the official
  >language they teach.
And Georges asked me
  Do you really think so ?

Yes, I do. Language is distinguished from dialects by having
a standing army behind it. I admit there are cases where a conquered
nation/tribe are allowed to go on using their now-to-be-annihilated
language, but the general tendency is towards extinction (the revival of
Welsh is happening in an exceptionally lenient environment. Nothing is
more entertaining than listening to Welsh speaking Welsh in Northern
Wales, isn't it).

Whether Belarusan is a different language from Russian or not is a purely
political matter. Linguists may find similarities/differences between
these two and may perhaps be able to establish a "distance", but
the distance is not the decisive factor for being an separate language.
(I recently have had an experience of reading "Novgorodskie skazki",
fables written in that fabulous dialect. I thought the dialect was
very broad, but my Russian friend said the language was perfectly
comprehensible. The distance may depend on the really deep knowledge
of languages. Needless to say, Novgorod was an independent State for
centuries but Belarus hasn't been).

What is happening in Belarus is a purely political strife about
what Belarusan language should be. All we could say is just, "give
citizens the freedom to use the language in whatever way a citizen
may wish to".

>>From the definition of the language it is clear what language
teachers are expected to do at schools, especially at free
government/community set up schools.
 Incidentally, teaching foreign languages is not outside the
evils' domain, either. The primary aim of teaching foreign language
is not so much helping children to acquire a second language as
teaching "the language" from a different perspective. Yes, it is
the teacher of English who teaches how to read/write Japanese while
teachers of Japanese are busy teaching ancient/mediaeval literature.
Nothing else can explain why Japanese children cannot speak English at all
after learning it intensively for six or eight years (they learn
Japanese, instead). The decline of teaching classical language in UK has
surely affected the command of the English language due to similar
reasons but in opposite direction.

Well, a good advice for French executives coming to Japan --- , well,
pick up some English speaking Japanese and get used to their notorious
accent (e.g. Japanese usually say they eat on lice). Learning a few
expressions like thank you, please, excuse me will help much more
than learning the art of tea ceremony, sushi, karate, geisha, etc.


Cheers,
Tsuji


From brifkin at facstaff.wisc.edu  Tue Aug  4 14:08:53 1998
From: brifkin at facstaff.wisc.edu (Benjamin Rifkin)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:08:53 -0500
Subject: previous awards
Message-ID: <TUE.4.AUG.1998.090853.0500.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Dear Colleagues:

Yesterday I posted to SEELANGs a message regarding AATSEEL awards, on the
request of the chair of the AATSEEL awards committee, soliciting nominations
for the awards to be given at our conference in December in San Francisco:

        (1) Award for Excellence in Teaching at the Secondary Level;
        (2) Award for Excellence in Teaching at the Postsecondary Level;
        (3) Joe Malik Award for Outstanding Service to AATSEEL;
        (4) Award for Distinguished Contribution to the Profession; and
        (5) the Award for Outstanding Achievement in Scholarship.

I asked that all nominations should be sent to Jane Gary Harris by e-mail,
surface mail, telephone or fax (Slavic Dept., U. of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh,
PA  15260; phone 412 624-5708; fax 412 624 9714; e-mail jgharris+ at pitt.edu)
and that nominations include a paragraph or two specifying the achievements
of the person nominated.

Since posting that message, I have received a request to provide the names
of previous award winners.

Jerry Ervin and Ray Parrott have provided the following information.
Numbers in parentheses correspond to the numbers of the prizes listed above.

1991 AWARDS:
        (1) John Sheehan, Winter Park High School, Winter Park, Florida;
        (2) Barbara Monahan, Brown University;
        (3) Zita Dabars, Friends School, Baltimore, Maryland
        (4) J. Thomas Shaw, University of Wisconsin-Madison;
        (5) Victor Terras, Brown University; Catherine Chvany, M.I.T.


1992 AWARDS:
        (1) Henry Ziegler, Princeton High School, Cincinnati, Ohio;
        (2) Robert Baker, Middlebury College, Vermont;
        (3) Leon Twarog, Ohio State University; Helen Yakobson, George
Washington University;
        (4) Charles Gribble, Ohio State University'
        (5) Dean Worth, UCLA.


1993 AWARDS:
        (1) George Morris, St. Louis University H.S., St. Louis, MO;
        (2) Irwin Weil, Northwestern University;
        (3) Lauren Leighton, University of Illinois-Chicago;
        (4) Irene Thompson, George Washington University;
        (5) Robert Jackson, Yale University.


1994 AWARDS:
        (1) Will Poole (retired), Lincoln H.S., Portland, OR;
        (2) Leonard Polakiewicz, U. of Minnesota-Minneapolis;
        (3) Christine Tomei, American University;
        (4) Charles Townsend, Princeton University;
        (5) Rado Lencek, Columbia University.


1995 AWARDS:
        (1) Peter Merrill, Phillips Academy, Andover, MA;
        (2) Christopher Wertz, University of Iowa;
        (3) George Gutsche, U. of Arizona; Ernest Scatton, SUNY-Albany;
        (4) Dan Davidson, Bryn Mawr College/ACTR;
        (5) Marina Ledkovsky, Barnard College (Columbia); Michael Mikos, U.
of Wisconsin-Milwaukee


1996 AWARDS:
        (1) Jane Shuffelton, Brighton High School
        (2) Frank Miller, Columbia University
        (3) Ray Parrott, University of Iowa
        (4) George Fowler, Indiana University
        (5) Felix J. Oinas, Indiana University (Emeritus)

1997 AWARDS:
        (1)  Gunther Teschauer, Tenafly HS
        (2)  Robert Beard, Bucknell University
        (3)  John Schillinger, American University
        (4)  Catherine V. Chvany, MIT (emerita)
        (5)  Vladimir Markov UCLA (emeritus)

In addition to the awards listed above, the Publications Committee gave the
following awards in 1996 and 1997:

1996

        Outstanding Book in Literary Studies:  David Bethea, University of
Wisconsin - Madison
        Outstanding Work in Linguistics:  Steven Franks, Indiana University
        Outstanding Translation:  Stanislaw Baranczak, Harvard University;
Clare Cavanagh, University of Wisconsin - Madison
        Special Achievement Award:  Genevra Gerhart


1997

       Best scholarly book: Clare Cavanagh, Osip Mandelstam and the
Creation of Tradition (Princeton UP, 1995)
        Best book in Slavic or East European Linguistics: Selected Essays
of Catherine V. Chvany, eds. Olga Yokoyama and Emily Klenin (Slavica, 1996)
        Best translation from a Slavic or Eastern European Language: H.T.
Willetts, Isaac Babel 1920 Diary, ed. Carol J. Avins (Yale UP, 1995)

The Publications Committee awards are considered in a separate process from
the consideration of the five awards specified above.

The AATSEEL awards committee thanks all association members for their
consideration of nominations for these awards.

Ben Rifkin




////////////////////////////////////////

Benjamin Rifkin

Associate Professor of Slavic Languages
Coordinator of Russian-Language Instruction

Department of Slavic Languages & Literatures
University of Wisconsin-Madison
1432 Van Hise Hall, 1220 Linden Dr.
Madison, WI  53706  USA

voice:  608/262-1623
fax:  608/265-2814
e-mail:  brifkin at facstaff.wisc.edu

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\


From KatkouskiV at praguemail.rferl.org  Tue Aug  4 17:20:41 1998
From: KatkouskiV at praguemail.rferl.org (KatkouskiV)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 17:20:41 U
Subject: Lukashenka stages New attacks on our language!
Message-ID: <TUE.4.AUG.1998.172041.U.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Whether Belarusan is a different language from Russian or not is a purely
... funny question.

Sumna bacyc, sto navat velmi adukavanyia navukoucy prytrymlivajucca
hetkih pohliadau pry adsutnas'ci viedau u hetay haline. Biassprecna,
belmova mocna adroznivaecca ad svajoi ushodnjai susedki prynamsi
pamieram leksikonu i zrazumela svajoi pryhazos'ciu i milahucnus'ciu.
Navukoucy nakstalt vas ujaliajuc' nebias'pieku dlia usioy linguistycnae
supolnas'ci!

P.S. Ask a native Russian speaker with no knowledge of Belarusan
(or native knowledge of Ukrainian/Polish) for the word-by-word
translation... ;) Or even do it yourself ;)

 Uladzimir Katkouski
---------------------------------------
       e-mail: KatkouskiV at praguemail.rferl.org
h-page: http://www.aubg.bg/cj/~vlk960/
h-page: http://members.xoom.com/ulad/
----------------------------------------


From KatkouskiV at praguemail.rferl.org  Tue Aug  4 18:08:45 1998
From: KatkouskiV at praguemail.rferl.org (KatkouskiV)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:08:45 U
Subject: Lukashenka stages New attacks on our language!
Message-ID: <TUE.4.AUG.1998.180845.U.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Whether Belarusan is a different language from Russian or not is a purely
>political matter. Linguists may find similarities/differences between

As a person who has deep respect for languages per se, I just can not
accept the above statement, and hence I wrote the previous message... BUT,
but in principle you are right -- governments/authorities use language
issues for their political ends (just like they do with many other issues).
You can, similarly, announce to Bulgarians that they use Old Russian,
and they should switch to the contemporary Russian and implement appropriate
language reform, right?

 Uladzimir Katkouski
---------------------------------------
       e-mail: KatkouskiV at praguemail.rferl.org
h-page: http://www.aubg.bg/cj/~vlk960/
h-page: http://members.xoom.com/ulad/
----------------------------------------


From aisrael at american.edu  Tue Aug  4 16:11:20 1998
From: aisrael at american.edu (Alina Israeli)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:11:20 -0400
Subject: Lukashenka stages New attacks on our language!
Message-ID: <TUE.4.AUG.1998.121120.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>>Whether Belarusan is a different language from Russian or not is a purely
>... funny question.
>
>Sumna bacyc, sto navat velmi adukavanyia navukoucy prytrymlivajucca
>hetkih pohliadau pry adsutnas'ci viedau u hetay haline. Biassprecna,
>belmova mocna adroznivaecca ad svajoi ushodnjai susedki prynamsi
>pamieram leksikonu i zrazumela svajoi pryhazos'ciu i milahucnus'ciu.
>Navukoucy nakstalt vas ujaliajuc' nebias'pieku dlia usioy linguistycnae
>supolnas'ci!

How does it differ from the Smolensk dialect of Russian?


From KatkouskiV at praguemail.rferl.org  Tue Aug  4 18:34:27 1998
From: KatkouskiV at praguemail.rferl.org (KatkouskiV)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:34:27 U
Subject: Lukashenka stages New attacks on our language!
Message-ID: <TUE.4.AUG.1998.183427.U.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Germany just underwent a spelling change and the High Court just upheld it
<<snip>>
>Post-war Japan saw a major spelling change and a substantial
>discouragement of ideographic symbols

The thing here is that German language will not become less German
because of the reform, the Japanese did not become less Japanese
as well. Unfortunately, this is not the case with Belarusan. The
reforms and the policies of the regime put it under the threat of
being swallowed by the "Velikiy i Moguchiy." It is my strong belief
that we must protest against policies of such ilk.

 Uladzimir Katkouski
---------------------------------------
       e-mail: KatkouskiV at praguemail.rferl.org
h-page: http://www.aubg.bg/cj/~vlk960/
h-page: http://members.xoom.com/ulad/
----------------------------------------


From aisrael at american.edu  Tue Aug  4 17:32:29 1998
From: aisrael at american.edu (Alina Israeli)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:32:29 -0400
Subject: Lukashenka stages New attacks on our language!
Message-ID: <TUE.4.AUG.1998.133229.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>>Whether Belarusan is a different language from Russian or not is a purely
>>political matter. Linguists may find similarities/differences between
>
>As a person who has deep respect for languages per se, I just can not
>accept the above statement, and hence I wrote the previous message... BUT,
>but in principle you are right -- governments/authorities use language
>issues for their political ends (just like they do with many other issues).
>You can, similarly, announce to Bulgarians that they use Old Russian,
>and they should switch to the contemporary Russian and implement appropriate
>language reform, right?
>
> Uladzimir Katkouski

In Iceland they speak Old Norse and nobody's switching. On the other hand,
it is accepted that the differences between Swedish and Norwegian are not
substantial enough to constitute a "linguistic" language. So everybody is
happy to accept "political" languages. A similar situation seems to be
between Roumanian and Moldavian (plus the alphabet). As you can see, I am
carefully staying away from Slavic (on SEELangs).


From napooka at aloha.net  Tue Aug  4 21:42:08 1998
From: napooka at aloha.net (IreneThompson)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:42:08 -1000
Subject: Lukashenka: Enough already!
Message-ID: <TUE.4.AUG.1998.114208.1000.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

I know it is summer and the living is easy. But don't let us get carried
away. Let's find another topic or go to the beach.
Irene Thompson
**********************************************
Irene and Richard Thompson
P.O. Box 3572
Princeville, HI  96722
tel/fax: (808) 826-9510
e-mail:< napooka at aloha.net>
<http://nts.lll.hawaii.edu/flmedia>
**********************************************


From natalia.pylypiuk at ualberta.ca  Tue Aug  4 23:07:11 1998
From: natalia.pylypiuk at ualberta.ca (Natalia Pylypiuk)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 16:07:11 -0700
Subject: On Lukashenka: some tangents
In-Reply-To: <199808030449.NAA08120@tsuji.yt.cache.waseda.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <TUE.4.AUG.1998.160711.0700.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Thank you Yoshimasa Tsuji <yamato at yt.cache.waseda.ac.jp> for offering a
comparative perspective.  I do have a question concerning this passage:

>All
>the new additions to the [Japanese] language were done by way of using
>ideographic
>symbols which phonetically made sense only for the Chinese who have so
>many phonemes and tones.

What were the impulses that led to a choice which disregarded the
specificity of Japanese and -- judging by appearances -- gave preference to
a system more adequate for Chinese?

*********

Concerning comments made by other contributors to the discussion, I would
like to state the following:
(1)
As a native speaker of both Spanish and Ukrainian, when I began studying
Italian and Russian, I found that the distance separating Italian from
Spanish was shorter than the distance between Russian and Ukrainian.
Nonetheless, my colleagues in the field of Romance languages and
literatures would never suggest that  Spanish is a dialect of Italian (or
vice versa).  By the same token, although Portuguese, Castilian Spanish and
Catalan  (to give an analog of geographic proximity) are related languages,
no one formulates the relationship in terms of  "coming" "from a common
root."  Conceptualizing the relationship of Russian to Belarusian and
Ukrainian in such terms is predicated by the political vision that sought
to uphold the idea of a triune Rus' as the legitimization of one and
indivisible Russia.  But, the history of the middle ages is far more
complex than the totalizing narrative of post-eighteenth century Russia
would have it.  Whatever the case, the relationship among the three East
Slavic languages should not give anyone an excuse to persecute speakers of
Belarusian in their native country. J. Douglas Clayton <jdclayt at uottawa.ca>
is so right when he states: "Slavists should be protesting[Lukashenka's
archaic power-politics], in the name of human rights and intellectual
freedom".

(2)
Georges Adassovsky <gadassov at csi.com> wrote:
>Russian, Belorussian, Ukrainian languages come from a common root, but the
>fact is that Russian has the richest literature.

The second part of this statement is an opinion, not a fact.  Assuming that
you have a good command of all three languages and have read everything
within each of the three literary systems, you have a right to your
opinion.  For my part, I would not make such a generalization.  Firstly,
because I have not read nineteenth- and twentieth-century Belarusian
literature.

 As a specialist of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, I can state
that I find Belarusian and Ukrainian literatures -- or, if you prefer, the
Ruthenian system -- fascinating, even exhilarating. This, despite the fact,
that it differs greatly from Spanish literature of the Golden Age.

Leaving aside the bilingualism of Ukrainian literature in the ninetennth
century, when I compare the Ukrainian and Russian systems of this period, I
concur that the literature "written in Russian" is richer.  But, this is
only one century out of ten...

 I could not make the claim that twentieth-century Russian literature is
richer.  In some respects, I find contemporary Ukrainian literature more
rewarding simply because it places greater emphasis on style and story
rather than endless philosophizing.  But, once again, this is a matter of
personal taste.

(3) In 1992, the journal *Canadian Slavonic Papers* initiated a discussion
devoted to Russocentrism in the Slavic field.  I draw the attention of
fellow SEELANGERS to the following articles:

(a) Oleh S. Ilnytzkyj, "Russian and Ukrainian Studies and the New World Order,"
CSP Vol. xxxiv. no. 4. dec 1992, p. 445
(b) Horace G. Lunt, "Notes on Nationalist Attitudes in Slavic Studies," CSP
Vol.
xxxiv. no. 4. dec 1992, p. 459.
(c) Mikhail V. Dmitriev, "Ukraine and Russia," CSP Vol. xxxv, Nos. 1-2,
March-June 1993.
(d) Serhii M. Plokhy, "Ukraine and Russia in their Historical Encounter," Vol.
xxv, Nos. 3-4 Sept-Dec. 1993, p. 335.
(e) Dmitri D. Kozikis and David R. Marples," Impartiality: The Belarusian
context," CSP , Vol xxxvi, Nos. 3-4, Sept.-Dec, 1994, p. 467

*Canadian Slavonic Papers* welcomes your contribution to this ongoing
conversation.  Please join us.

¡Bienvenidos!    Laskavo prosymo!

Natalia Pylypiuk


****************************************************

Natalia Pylypiuk, Book Review Editor
Canadian Slavonic Papers,
Department of Modern Languages & Cultural Studies:
                                   Germanic, Romance and Slavic
200 Arts Building,  University of Alberta
Edmonton, AB T6G 2E6
Canada

****************************************************

office phone & voice mail:     (403)  492 - 3498
departmental fax:                      (403)  492 - 9106

e-mail address:                       natalia.pylypiuk at ualberta.ca

www.ualberta.ca/~uklanlit/Homepage.html

****************************************************


From cfwoolhiser at mail.utexas.edu  Tue Aug  4 22:05:59 1998
From: cfwoolhiser at mail.utexas.edu (curt fredric woolhiser)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 17:05:59 -0500
Subject: Lukashenka & "Nasha Niva"
Message-ID: <TUE.4.AUG.1998.170559.0500.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Dear Seelangers:
>
>The debate over Belorusian orthography has proved to me one thing: that in
>Belarus herrings are still red. Surely the real issue is that a repressive
>regime is using the orthographic stick to beat dissenters. They are not
>being persecuted for using a particular language norm, but because they
>challenge the squalid neo-Soviet regime of Lukashenka. The imposition of a
>spelling norm, the dismissal of the head of a Belarusian-language school,
>the beating by police of young people when they speak Belarusian - this is
>all the depressingly archaic power-politics of a neo-Stalinist dictator.

Doug,

The issue of orthography is, as you suggest, entirely secondary here. After
all, last year Lukashenko managed to close down the opposition newspaper
"Svaboda", which used the official Belarusian "narkomauka" orthography (and
even ran some articles in Russian!), without having to resort to such
tactics. What is really interesting about all this is what it says about
normative attitudes in this part of the world -- that the use of a
non-official orthography could be used in all seriousness as a pretext for
banning an opposition publication.

>
>Our colleague Mr Katkouski is right - Slavists should be protesting all
>this, in the name of human rights and intellectual freedom. My best hope is
>that Mr Lukashenka will soon be swept into the ash-can of history. My worst
>fear - and it is one that we should all share, is that his ideas spread to
>other areas of the FSU, including the Russian Federation, where he has a
>very considerable following. That could have very grave consequences for
>even Russocentric Slavists.
>
>Doug Clayton
>

Hear, hear! One way for the international Slavic studies community to make
itself heard on this matter would be to sponsor a resolution condemning
Lukashenko's linguistic and cultural policies at the upcoming International
Congress of Slavists in Cracow. The resolution could make reference to the
Universal Declaration on Linguistic Rights which was adopted at the 1996
World Conference on Linguistic Rights in Barcelona (sponsored by UNESCO and
the International PEN Club). The text of the declaration can be viewed at:
http://www.partal.com/ciemen/conf/deng.html.

========================================
Curt F. Woolhiser
Dept. of Slavic Languages
University of Texas
Austin, TX 78713-7217

Tel. (512) 471-3607
Fax: (512) 471-6710
Email: cfwoolhiser at mail.utexas.edu
========================================

P.S. Lest we get too self-righteous, however, those of us in the U.S. would
do well  to consider what is going on in our own neck of the woods (i.e.
the "English Only" movement -- see article below). Incidentally, does
anyone know if there are (or were) any Russian bilingual schools in LA or
SF?


In Calif. Classrooms, A Troubled Transition

LOS ANGELES, August 4 -- The sweeping social experiment known as
bilingual education officially ended today in the state where it began.
Confusion reigned in many California school districts and defiance in
others as teachers struggled to switch from Korean, Armenian and Spanish
to all-English, all the time, often without the help of textbooks or
lesson plans. In Oakland and San Francisco, where schools do not open
for another few weeks, officials were still holding out against
implementation of Proposition 227, the voter initiative that passed with
overwhelming support on June 2. The initiative, sponsored by Silicon
Valley software entrepreneur Ron Unz, replaced bilingual education with
a year of English language immersion. Except in charter schools,
students are then to be pushed into mainstream all-English classes. The
end of bilingual education in California, the largest state in the union
and the one with the largest immigrant population, is being closely
watched by other states also facing influxes of immigrant children.
Reflecting resentment over the spreading challenge, a bill curtailing
funding for bilingual education has been introduced in Congress. But in
the meantime, the change began today in Los Angeles. (Washington Post)


From GMC0633 at aol.com  Wed Aug  5 02:05:30 1998
From: GMC0633 at aol.com (Kevin Hannan)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:05:30 EDT
Subject: On Lukashenka: some tangents
Message-ID: <TUE.4.AUG.1998.220530.EDT.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Dear Prof. Pylypiuk,
first of all, I agree wholeheartedly with your comments on the Ukrainian
language.
On another note, I am wondering if Canadian Slavonic Papers will publish a
review of my book Borders of Language and Identity in Teschen Silesian (New
York et al: Peter Lang, 1996).  There was no reply to the query sent two years
ago concerning a free review copy.
Can you let me know when and if a review will appear?
Yours sincerely,
Dr Kevin Hannan


From yamato at yt.cache.waseda.ac.jp  Wed Aug  5 04:36:04 1998
From: yamato at yt.cache.waseda.ac.jp (Yoshimasa Tsuji)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 13:36:04 +0900
Subject: On Lukashenka: some tangents
In-Reply-To: <v04003a01b1ed24a284c7@[24.108.10.164]> (message from Natalia
 Pylypiuk on Tue, 4 Aug 1998 16:07:11 -0700)
Message-ID: <WED.5.AUG.1998.133604.0900.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Hello everyone,
as is already mentioned, the matter started purely as a political
issue (a government forbidding a certain method of expression) and
there seems to be little to be gained by extending the discussion
into whether Belarusan is a "language" or not, which is also a
political discussion.

Political matters are always emotional matters as well. The distance of
two speaks/Sprache or "linguistic family units" may be measured by
so many ways (typically by the assumed date when they were separated), but
there are also "emotional distance" as well. Look at Chinese. Their dialects
were already noticeable thousands of years ago, yet they are considered to
be part of a language. And English. People in Devonshire are heard to
speak "hart" for "hot" which reminds us of a rival foreign language, and
people with a broad dialect still say "be" for "am". But West countries are
inseparable from England and the English language, no doubt about that.

As  to the question why Japanese adopted Chinese civilization, the answer is
easy: the Japanese language was be a primitive language (eighth century) and
could not cope with civilization on its own. Switching to Chinese was the
only choice. Anomalies began when the official written language ceased to
be Chinese but English did not take its place (at about 1870). A minister
of education proposed a reform to that effect, but no one else in the cabinet
took it seriously. Incidentally, he also encouraged intermarriage -- sorry,
to have sounded too old-fashioned -- with British women, which will remain
as a utopia. The last attempt took place when the British
Empire was dissolved and a new Commonwealth of Nations was to be formed:
the then prime minister of Japan, an Etonian, sent a letter (to the Queen,
I think) asking to let Japan in it. Too bizzar an idea, that was. Never mind,
Japan is going to be an unwelcome 51st State of America soon.

  Lukashenko should not be blamed for using Russian or heading towards
integration with Russia, but for depriving people of basic human rights.
If Lukashenko's policy were supported by the majority and the right of the
minority were well respected, there shouldn't be a problem at all whatever
the language policy may be. The problem has nothing to do with linguistics.
Is that clear?

Cheers,
Tsuji


From roborr at aix1.uottawa.ca  Wed Aug  5 05:26:13 1998
From: roborr at aix1.uottawa.ca (Robert Orr)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 01:26:13 -0400
Subject: On Lukashenka: some tangents
In-Reply-To: <199808050436.NAA08480@tsuji.yt.cache.waseda.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <WED.5.AUG.1998.012613.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

I haven't been following the current situation in Belarus as closely as i
should, but I spent some time in Minsk esce pri Brezneve (stareju) and the
impression I had was that the locals didn't really care about Belorussian
(as it was). Also, the bilingual signs in Russian/Belorussian seemed to be
doctored so that the Belorussian read as a sort of orthogrpahic variant of
Russian.

It might also be noted that in those days British universities thought
nothing of sending students of RUSSIAN to MINSK (capital of a polity
speaking a different language) to learn what seemed like a very clear,
standard variant of Russian.

This was in great contrast to attitudes to language in the Baltic states,
etc.

And, from another angle, despite all the recent hype about Scotland
finally taking the plunge, most of the people there don't actually
speak Scots (let alone Gaelic!) the phonology's there, but nearly all the
disticnt lexicon is gone, see a footnote on (I think) around p. 38 of
Lunt's recent article in IJSLP, which deals with the importance of the
lexicon in comprehension, delimiting "language" and "dialect", etc.

None of the above is meant as an excuse for Lukashenka
.

Robert Orr


From llt at hawaii.edu  Wed Aug  5 18:55:30 1998
From: llt at hawaii.edu (Language Learning & Technology)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 14:55:30 EDT
Subject: LLT v. 2, n. 1 is available
Message-ID: <WED.5.AUG.1998.145530.EDT.>

We are happy to announce that Vol. 2, No. 1 of Language Learning &
Technology is now available at http://polyglot.cal.msu.edu/llt .  This is a
special issue on "The Design and Evaluation of Multimedia Software," and
the contents are listed below.

Please visit the LLT web site and be sure to enter your free subscription
if you have not already done so.  Also, we welcome your submissions of
articles, reviews, and commentaries for Vol. 2, No. 2 and future issues as
well. Check our guidelines for submission at
http://polyglot.cal.msu.edu/llt/contrib.html .

Lucinda Hart-Gonzalez & Mark Warschauer, Editors
llt-editors at hawaii.edu


***Feature Articles***

1. Carol A. Chapelle,  "Multimedia CALL: Lessons to be Learned from
Research on Instructed SLA"

2. Jan L. Plass, "Design and Evaluation of the User Interface of Foreign
Language Multimedia Software: A Cognitive Approach"

3. Farzad Ehsani & Eva Knodt, "Speech Technology in Computer-Aided Language
Learning: Strengths and Limitations of a New CALL Paradigm"

4. Dorothy M. Chun, "Signal Analysis Software for Teaching Discourse
Intonation"


***Columns***

>>From the Editors
by Lucinda Hart-Gonzalez, Co-editor

>>From the Guest Editor
by Irene Thompson

On the Net
Using WWW Multimedia in the Foreign Language Classroom: Is This for Me?
by Jean W. LeLoup and Robert Ponterio

Emerging Technologies
New Developments in Digital Video
by Bob Godwin-Jones

Announcements
News from Sponsoring Organizations


***Reviews***

Computer Assisted Language Learning: Context and Conceptualization
Reviewed by Christine Leahy

Tripleplay Plus! English
Reviewed by Alison Mackey and Jung-Yoon Choi


***Call for Papers***

Theme: The Role of Computer Technology in Second Language Acquisition Research


From gadassov at csi.com  Wed Aug  5 22:57:56 1998
From: gadassov at csi.com (Adassovsky)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 23:57:56 +0100
Subject: Lukashenka: Enough already!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980804114208.006918a8@aloha.net>
Message-ID: <WED.5.AUG.1998.235756.0100.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>I know it is summer and the living is easy. But don't let us get carried
>away. Let's find another topic or go to the beach.
>Irene Thompson

Please find ! (or go to the beach)

Georges


From gadassov at csi.com  Wed Aug  5 22:59:09 1998
From: gadassov at csi.com (Adassovsky)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 23:59:09 +0100
Subject: On Lukashenka: some tangents
In-Reply-To: <v04003a01b1ed24a284c7@[24.108.10.164]>
Message-ID: <WED.5.AUG.1998.235909.0100.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Natalia Pylypiuk Wrote:

>Concerning comments made by other contributors to the discussion, I would
>like to state the following:
>(1)
>As a native speaker of both Spanish and Ukrainian, when I began studying
>Italian and Russian, I found that the distance separating Italian from
>Spanish was shorter than the distance between Russian and Ukrainian.
>Nonetheless, my colleagues in the field of Romance languages and
>literatures would never suggest that  Spanish is a dialect of Italian (or
>vice versa).  By the same token, although Portuguese, Castilian Spanish and
>Catalan  (to give an analog of geographic proximity) are related languages,
>no one formulates the relationship in terms of  "coming" "from a common
>root."

I do. Portuguese, Castilian Spanish, Catalan, Valencian, Languedocian,
French, Italian, and many others come from a common root : Latin.

>  Conceptualizing the relationship of Russian to Belarusian and
>Ukrainian in such terms is predicated by the political vision that sought
>to uphold the idea of a triune Rus' as the legitimization of one and
>indivisible Russia.

Not at all. As I told, I believe linguistics are not politics. YOU have a
politic view, not me.

> Whatever the case, the relationship among the three East
>Slavic languages should not give anyone an excuse to persecute speakers of
>Belarusian in their native country.

Of course. I think nobody has denied it in the discussion.

>Georges Adassovsky <gadassov at csi.com> wrote:
>>Russian, Belorussian, Ukrainian languages come from a common root, but the
>>fact is that Russian has the richest literature.
>
>The second part of this statement is an opinion, not a fact.  Assuming that
>you have a good command of all three languages and have read everything
>within each of the three literary systems, you have a right to your
>opinion.  For my part, I would not make such a generalization.  Firstly,
>because I have not read nineteenth- and twentieth-century Belarusian
>literature.

I am French, so I've read only books translated in my language. I found
many pieces translated from Russian (Dostoievsky, Tolstoi, Lermontov,
Poushkine, Tourgeniev, and many others) but nothing translated from
Ukrainian or Belarussian. You are certainly very lucky to be able to read
master pieces in Belarussian and Ukrainian.

> As a specialist of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, I can state
>that I find Belarusian and Ukrainian literatures -- or, if you prefer, the
>Ruthenian system -- fascinating, even exhilarating. This, despite the fact,
>that it differs greatly from Spanish literature of the Golden Age.

As I am a Beotian, I prefer nothing, and I don't even know what is the
Ruthenian system. I even can't see what it have in common with Spanish
literature.

> In some respects, I find contemporary Ukrainian literature more
>rewarding simply because it places greater emphasis on style and story
>rather than endless philosophizing.  But, once again, this is a matter of
>personal taste.

In effect.

Georges.


From rdelossa at fas.harvard.edu  Wed Aug  5 23:51:34 1998
From: rdelossa at fas.harvard.edu (Robert DeLossa)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:51:34 -0500
Subject: On Lukashenka: some tangents (Inquiring minds need to know)
In-Reply-To: <199808052157.RAA12112@smtp3.fas.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.5.AUG.1998.185134.0500.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

The Ruthenians that Professor Pylypiuk refers to were the Orthodox East
Slavs living in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth; proto-Ukrainians and
Belarusians. (Not to be confused with contemporary Carpatho-Ruthenians,
also called Rusyns.) The perceived (then and now) cultural centers of East
Slavic Orthodoxy were outside of Muscovy and in Ruthenian lands until after
the mid-17th century. The connection with Spanish literature has to do with
the experience of peripheralization, especially during the Reformation and
the Counter-Reformation, where Spain and Poland-Lithuania (and, therefore,
the Ruthenians) were on the peripheries of the movement, and also in their
respective roles as antemurales christianitatis. There are many
similarities that were perceived even then and it is no accident that the
protagonist of Calderon de la Barca's masterpiece La Vida es Sueno is
Polish.

David Frick's book on Meletij Smotryc'kyj has lots of food for thought on
how the world worked in early 17th-century Eastern Europe. Another good
study on the Polish-Ruthenian issue is Frank Sysyn's Between Poland and the
Ukraine.

Rob DeLossa



>As I am a Beotian, I prefer nothing, and I don't even know what is the
>Ruthenian system. I even can't see what it have in common with Spanish
>literature.
>
>> In some respects, I find contemporary Ukrainian literature more
>>rewarding simply because it places greater emphasis on style and story
>>rather than endless philosophizing.  But, once again, this is a matter of
>>personal taste.
>
>In effect.
>
>Georges.


____________________________________________________
Robert DeLossa
Director of Publications
Ukrainian Research Institute, Harvard University
1583 Massachusetts Ave., Cambridge, MA 02138
617-496-8768; fax. 617-495-8097
reply to: rdelossa at fas.harvard.edu
http://www.sabre.org/huri


From dbulgak at pop3.utoledo.edu  Thu Aug  6 01:56:42 1998
From: dbulgak at pop3.utoledo.edu (R&D B.)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:56:42 -0700
Subject: Lukashenka: Enough already!
Message-ID: <WED.5.AUG.1998.185642.0700.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Adassovsky wrote:
>
> >I know it is summer and the living is easy. But don't let us get carried
> >away. Let's find another topic or go to the beach.
> >Irene Thompson
>
> Please find ! (or go to the beach)
>
**************

Man, I like you!!

beach rhymes with b....

--
Stat rosa pristina nomine, nomina nuda tenemus


From yamato at yt.cache.waseda.ac.jp  Thu Aug  6 06:05:53 1998
From: yamato at yt.cache.waseda.ac.jp (Yoshimasa Tsuji)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:05:53 +0900
Subject: On Lukashenka: some tangents
In-Reply-To: <l03110701b1ee866f5d13@[195.232.67.204]> (message from Adassovsky
 on Wed, 5 Aug 1998 23:59:09 +0100)
Message-ID: <THU.6.AUG.1998.150553.0900.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

I couldn't help expressing my surprise.
  |
  |>vice versa).  By the same token, although Portuguese, Castilian Spanish and
  |>Catalan  (to give an analog of geographic proximity) are related languages,
  |>no one formulates the relationship in terms of  "coming" "from a common
  |>root."
  |
  |I do. Portuguese, Castilian Spanish, Catalan, Valencian, Languedocian,
  |French, Italian, and many others come from a common root : Latin.

That they have come down from Latin is a typical myth that
"language teachers" of these languages are paid to assert.
  We in the academic world know that "Latin" was a normative language
of the Roman Empire (it was already "literary" in Cicero's time), based
on the Roman dialect of ancient Italic language(s). (Contemporary Italian is
based on Florentine dialect, not Roman, incidentally). It is like saying the
ancestors of humans are apes -- the truth is that the ancestors of apes and
humans are very likely the same. I am saying Latin was not the only
language/dialect within the Roman Empire although the dialectal diversity
of Italic languages seems to be much smaller than today.
  Or do you believe all the Roman colonists spoke exactly the same language
("single vulgar Latin") everywhere?

  The same thing applies to Ukrainian/Belarusan/Russian as well: it is wrong
to say Russian is a off-spring of Ukrainian. Just have a look of the
Old Slavonic and you will notice a considerable diversity of local features.
It is too early to establish a "common Slavonic language" that was the mother
of all Slavonic languages because we don't have adequate evidence to do that.

Cheers,
Tsuji

--------
I can afford to concede to the argument that contemporary Romance languages
have come from Latin. It is like finding a famous war lord among your
ancestors. It is pure nonsense to say "my ancestor was a samurai" because
everyone has 128 paternal ancestors eight generations back. As samurai
constituted one per cent of the population, everyone is very likely to
have one as their ancestor. But the status of samurai was transferred only
to the eldest son, and all the other children were worthless. Considering
every samurai had four to six sons, the greatest chances are that off-springs
of samurai eight generations down are practically all commons.

  It is very likely that many of the military chiefs stationed in the
provinces of Roman Empire were genuine Romans, but does it hardly matter?
The majority of peole who had settled in the provinces are very unlikely
to have been the rightful Roman citizens. I would imagine they were
slaves from everywhere.


From KatkouskiV at praguemail.rferl.org  Thu Aug  6 11:51:32 1998
From: KatkouskiV at praguemail.rferl.org (KatkouskiV)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:51:32 U
Subject: On Lukashenka: some tangents
Message-ID: <THU.6.AUG.1998.115132.U.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>  Lukashenko should not be blamed for using Russian or heading towards
>integration with Russia, but for depriving people of basic human rights.
>If Lukashenko's policy were supported by the majority and the right of the
>minority were well respected, there shouldn't be a problem at all whatever
>the language policy may be. The problem has nothing to do with linguistics.
>Is that clear?

Alles klar, kamerade!
Spasibo tovarishu Tsujiu za nashe shastlivoe detstvo. Vot on -- voinstvujushiy
japonskij IMPERIALIZM v deistvii!

 Uladzimir Katkouski
---------------------------------------
       e-mail: KatkouskiV at praguemail.rferl.org
h-page: http://www.aubg.bg/cj/~vlk960/
h-page: http://members.xoom.com/ulad/
----------------------------------------


From KatkouskiV at praguemail.rferl.org  Thu Aug  6 13:40:25 1998
From: KatkouskiV at praguemail.rferl.org (KatkouskiV)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:40:25 U
Subject: On Lukashenka: some tangents
Message-ID: <THU.6.AUG.1998.134025.U.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Dear Tsuji,

What a wonderful message! You managed to express yourself rather
clear! To summarize your message: (1) The question of Belarusan
language's existence is purely political, (2) and thus it is not
a topic worth dicussing by wise linguists like yourself.

Got the point. Thank you very much, sir, for your invaluable input.
The only way out for me now is to withdraw from this useless
discussion I suppose. Which I will do.

Iskrenne Vash,
VLADIMIR KATKOVSKI

>Hello everyone,
>as is already mentioned, the matter started purely as a political
>issue (a government forbidding a certain method of expression) and
>there seems to be little to be gained by extending the discussion
>into whether Belarusan is a "language" or not, which is also a
>political discussion.
>
>Political matters are always emotional matters as well. The distance of
>two speaks/Sprache or "linguistic family units" may be measured by
>so many ways (typically by the assumed date when they were separated), but
>there are also "emotional distance" as well. Look at Chinese. Their dialects
>were already noticeable thousands of years ago, yet they are considered to
>be part of a language. And English. People in Devonshire are heard to
>speak "hart" for "hot" which reminds us of a rival foreign language, and
>people with a broad dialect still say "be" for "am". But West countries are
>inseparable from England and the English language, no doubt about that.
>
>As  to the question why Japanese adopted Chinese civilization, the answer is
>easy: the Japanese language was be a primitive language (eighth century) and
>could not cope with civilization on its own. Switching to Chinese was the
>only choice. Anomalies began when the official written language ceased to
>be Chinese but English did not take its place (at about 1870). A minister
>of education proposed a reform to that effect, but no one else in the cabinet
>took it seriously. Incidentally, he also encouraged intermarriage -- sorry,
>to have sounded too old-fashioned -- with British women, which will remain
>as a utopia. The last attempt took place when the British
>Empire was dissolved and a new Commonwealth of Nations was to be formed:
>the then prime minister of Japan, an Etonian, sent a letter (to the Queen,
>I think) asking to let Japan in it. Too bizzar an idea, that was. Never mind,
>Japan is going to be an unwelcome 51st State of America soon.
>
>  Lukashenko should not be blamed for using Russian or heading towards
>integration with Russia, but for depriving people of basic human rights.
>If Lukashenko's policy were supported by the majority and the right of the
>minority were well respected, there shouldn't be a problem at all whatever
>the language policy may be. The problem has nothing to do with linguistics.
>Is that clear?
>
>Cheers,
>Tsuji

 Uladzimir Katkouski
---------------------------------------
       e-mail: KatkouskiV at praguemail.rferl.org
h-page: http://www.aubg.bg/cj/~vlk960/
h-page: http://members.xoom.com/ulad/
----------------------------------------


From dbulgak at pop3.utoledo.edu  Thu Aug  6 18:46:43 1998
From: dbulgak at pop3.utoledo.edu (R&D B.)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:46:43 -0700
Subject: On Lukashenka: some tangents
Message-ID: <THU.6.AUG.1998.114643.0700.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

> Alles klar, kamerade!
> Spasibo tovarishu Tsujiu za nashe shastlivoe detstvo. Vot on -- voinstvujushiy
> japonskij IMPERIALIZM v deistvii!


Vladzimir:

Please do not pay attention to Tsujiu (I still cannot understand whether
it is a male or female name)- this person is ignorant in many (too many
, I should say) respects. But she/he , or better "IT" thinks it knows
everything and is  an expert in all fields of knowledge. I noticed that
long time before.I believe the majority supports you and sympathizes
with you.Don't take ITS arrogance too close to heart.We shall overcome.

R.B.




--
Stat rosa pristina nomine, nomina nuda tenemus


From yamato at yt.cache.waseda.ac.jp  Thu Aug  6 16:01:19 1998
From: yamato at yt.cache.waseda.ac.jp (Yoshimasa Tsuji)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 01:01:19 +0900
Subject: off list
In-Reply-To: <n1309708870.17736@praguemail.rferl.org>
 (KatkouskiV@praguemail.rferl.org)
Message-ID: <FRI.7.AUG.1998.010119.0900.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

It is kind of you to have written to me off list. You must understand
politics are most unfavorable for academics. When I mentioned Lukashenko,
I just wanted to remind you of what politics really are. You cannnot do
anything with it, nor can I.

I am also very concerned with mirority languages: I am fairly
informed with many dialects/accents of the British Isles and of
some regions of Leningrad and Moscow (Vladimir, Yaroslavl, Pskov,
Tver, Novgorod). K sozhaleniju, I haven't been able to visit
much of Russia because of travel restrictions (I am having trouble of
obtaining visa at the moment to visit places in Russia). I am sure
I will love Belarus as much as you do once someone managed to invite
me there. As a matter of fact, a good friend of mine and his wife
were born in Mogilev and I very often hear about Belarus with pleasure
from them.

I was introduced to Father Nadson by a famous lady who makes her
living by translating Russian into English when she gave a "doklad"
at our annual convention of Slavic studies in UK. I remember she
talked about Belarusan literature and language in a session and the
audience was only me out of some 300 participants of the convention.
We naturally became good friends and she became so kind as to introduce me
to Father Nadson who happened to live only 15 minutes away from my house.

Out of many things I remember most about Father Nadson is that he told me
that sending medicines to Belarus was more important than talking about
the language and culture in Belarus and asked me to organize an assistance
in Japan for the victims of Chernobyl. He said people could live without
Belarusan culture but not without medicine. I was very, very impressed.

I must admit I don't understand Belarusan as much as you do, which is natural
since I have never lived there.

One thing I want to advise you: you must (are forced to/have to/are obliged to/
ought to) speak in the language your audience understand with comfort and
readiness because you must first understand what the others say and then
need to convey your message in the way others will understand you. In this
sense, I always think that every language is a foreign language because
the language always belongs to others, not to the one who wish to
convey one's message.

It is good of you to love what you call the Belarusan "language" and
go on studying it, but it is other people who decide whether to use it
or not, at least not us outside Belarusan Republic.

Good luck and cheers,

Tsuji


From sunseri.1 at osu.edu  Thu Aug  6 17:06:23 1998
From: sunseri.1 at osu.edu (Jennifer Sunseri)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:06:23 -0400
Subject: Get a grip...
Message-ID: <THU.6.AUG.1998.130623.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

These personal attacks reflect poorly on the list and aren't of benefit to
anyone. I'd been enjoying the discussion, and Tsuji's participation, very
much. Now it's turned ugly. I cannot understand slinging personal insults
at someone because you disagree with their views.

>Please do not pay attention to Tsujiu (I still cannot understand whether
>it is a male or female name)- this person is ignorant in many (too many
>, I should say) respects. But she/he , or better "IT" thinks it knows
>everything and is  an expert in all fields of knowledge. I noticed that
>long time before.I believe the majority supports you and sympathizes
>with you.Don't take ITS arrogance too close to heart.We shall overcome.
>
>R.B.
>


From Rolf.Fieguth at unifr.ch  Thu Aug  6 17:31:29 1998
From: Rolf.Fieguth at unifr.ch (Rolf Fieguth)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 19:31:29 +0200
Subject: Get a grip...
In-Reply-To: <v02130503b1ef57d8c92a@[140.254.113.54]>
Message-ID: <THU.6.AUG.1998.193129.0200.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>These personal attacks reflect poorly on the list and aren't of benefit to
>anyone. I'd been enjoying the discussion, and Tsuji's participation, very
>much. Now it's turned ugly. I cannot understand slinging personal insults
>at someone because you disagree with their views.

Bravo, Ms Jennifer Sunseri.

>>Please do not pay attention to Tsujiu (I still cannot understand whether
>>it is a male or female name)- this person is ignorant in many (too many
>>, I should say) respects. But she/he , or better "IT" thinks it knows
>>everything and is  an expert in all fields of knowledge. I noticed that
>>long time before.I believe the majority supports you and sympathizes
>>with you.Don't take ITS arrogance too close to heart.We shall overcome.
>>
>>R.B.
>>


From douglas at speakeasy.org  Thu Aug  6 17:39:43 1998
From: douglas at speakeasy.org (a telegraph to your soul)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:39:43 -0700
Subject: Get a grip...
In-Reply-To: <v02130503b1ef57d8c92a@[140.254.113.54]>
Message-ID: <THU.6.AUG.1998.103943.0700.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

On Thu, 6 Aug 1998, Jennifer Sunseri wrote:

> These personal attacks reflect poorly on the list and aren't of benefit to
> anyone. I'd been enjoying the discussion, and Tsuji's participation, very
> much. Now it's turned ugly. I cannot understand slinging personal insults
> at someone because you disagree with their views.

Brava, Ms. Sunseri, brava!

> >Please do not pay attention to Tsujiu (I still cannot understand whether
> >it is a male or female name)

I'm not quite sure who I'm replying to, but ... Tsujiu is a masculine
name, if I remember my Japanese right.

> >this person is ignorant in many (too many
> >, I should say) respects. But she/he , or better "IT" thinks it knows
> >everything and is  an expert in all fields of knowledge. I noticed that
> >long time before.I believe the majority supports you and sympathizes
> >with you.Don't take ITS arrogance too close to heart.We shall overcome.

Too many ad hominems here to even begin to start - but, simply put, Tsujiu
has revealed himself to be the better simply by NOT resorting to
phillipics, ad hominem, etc.  So far, I've enjoyed the conversation though
I've disagreed the entire time with Tsujiu's premises - I believe that
comparing Slavic culture and socio-political conflicts with
Chinese/Japanese culture does an injustice to both.

NOw why don't we behave like the adults we supposedly are and debate
points and topics, and NOT each other's gender.  Please?  Prosim?
Pazhalujsta?
--
"Douglas, if you set me on fire, I will scream and burn." - P. Jones


From walkingtune at bigfoot.com  Thu Aug  6 18:26:47 1998
From: walkingtune at bigfoot.com (Junichi Miyazawa)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:26:47 EDT
Subject: where stressed: Dyadkova
Message-ID: <THU.6.AUG.1998.142647.EDT.>

Does anyone tell me which syllable is stressed of the following name:


Dyadkova:  D_ya_dkova  or  Dyadk_o_va

It is from the transliterated name of a Russian singer Larissa Dyadkova.

No entry in Morton Benson's *Dictionary of Russian Personal Names*
nor K. Narumi's *Slovnik russkikh imen i familij*.

A further question:

Is the "d" sound attached with myakhkij znak (')?
Phonetically, is the person's name to be transliterated as
"Dyad'kova" rather than "Dyadkova"?  Or both exist?

(I have to transcribe the name into Japanese according
to the pronunciation: it is a rule.)

Please give me answers *off* list.

Thank you in advance.

Regards,

Junichi Miyazawa,
Waseda University, Tokyo
walkingtune at bigfoot.com


From porte+ at pitt.edu  Thu Aug  6 21:09:24 1998
From: porte+ at pitt.edu (Susanna M Porte)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:09:24 -0400
Subject: Kurs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980806103530.4644A-100000@eve.speakeasy.org>
Message-ID: <THU.6.AUG.1998.170924.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Dear All,

Pardon the prozaicheskii and a-bit-off-the-topic-of-SEELangs-skii vopros,
but would anyone happen to know the current rate of exchange between the
dollar and the ruble?

Thanks,
Susanna Porte


From jccurry at iocc.com  Thu Aug  6 21:38:22 1998
From: jccurry at iocc.com (Caroline Curry)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:38:22 -0500
Subject: Kurs
Message-ID: <THU.6.AUG.1998.163822.0500.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

http://www.dbc.com/cgi-bin/htx.exe/dbcfiles/FXEUROPEt.html?source=blq/washington
 post



6.255 rubles= 1 US $



Susanna M Porte wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> Pardon the prozaicheskii and a-bit-off-the-topic-of-SEELangs-skii vopros,
> but would anyone happen to know the current rate of exchange between the
> dollar and the ruble?
>
> Thanks,
> Susanna Porte


From eleaston at mindspring.com  Thu Aug  6 22:25:25 1998
From: eleaston at mindspring.com (E. L. Easton)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 18:25:25 -0400
Subject: Kurs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96L.980806170507.21719A-100000@unixs2.cis.pitt. edu>
Message-ID: <THU.6.AUG.1998.182525.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>current rate of exchange between the dollar and the ruble?
>Susanna Porte
_________________________________________
Here are sites for currency exchange, including the Federal Reserve and a
number of others:
http://eleaston.home.mindspring.com/html/materials.html#Currency2

Eva Easton
eleaston at mindspring.com
http://eleaston.home.mindspring.com


From ipustino at syr.edu  Fri Aug  7 13:30:09 1998
From: ipustino at syr.edu (Irena Ustinova)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:30:09 -0400
Subject: Kurs
Message-ID: <FRI.7.AUG.1998.093009.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Nowadays, officially in the bank one can change 1 dollar for 6.4 roubles.

Irena Ustinova

At 05:09 PM 8/6/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Dear All,
>
>Pardon the prozaicheskii and a-bit-off-the-topic-of-SEELangs-skii vopros,
>but would anyone happen to know the current rate of exchange between the
>dollar and the ruble?
>
>Thanks,
>Susanna Porte
>
>


From jgharris+ at pitt.edu  Fri Aug  7 13:49:33 1998
From: jgharris+ at pitt.edu (Jane Harris)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:49:33 -0400
Subject: Kurs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96L.980806170507.21719A-100000@unixs2.cis.pitt.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.7.AUG.1998.094933.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

6.26 to the dollar as of a few daysago.
x

On Thu, 6 Aug 1998, Susanna M Porte wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> Pardon the prozaicheskii and a-bit-off-the-topic-of-SEELangs-skii vopros,
> but would anyone happen to know the current rate of exchange between the
> dollar and the ruble?
>
> Thanks,
> Susanna Porte
>


From gadassov at csi.com  Fri Aug  7 17:13:22 1998
From: gadassov at csi.com (Adassovsky)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 18:13:22 +0100
Subject: On Lukashenka: some tangents
In-Reply-To: <199808060605.PAA08584@tsuji.yt.cache.waseda.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <FRI.7.AUG.1998.181322.0100.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Tsuji wrote :

>That they have come down from Latin is a typical myth that
>"language teachers" of these languages are paid to assert.

I didn't tell they "come down" but they "have a common root".

So, all Linguistic and Civilization courses I attended during years at a
French University are false ! A myth ! Bewildering !
The worse is I can't even go to neighbouring countries to study the truth :
I will be obliged to go to Japan , as  language teachers from all romance
countries are paid to lie.
Thank you for bringing me the light.

Georges


From solomons at SLT.LK  Fri Aug  7 05:09:46 1998
From: solomons at SLT.LK (Wendell W. Solomons)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 11:09:46 +0600
Subject: For whom the bell tolls
Message-ID: <FRI.7.AUG.1998.110946.0600.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Greetings Friends!

Just below the waterline on H-Russia and Seelangs lists
ride a few ethnic baiters. If they are successful, then
our line of business will suffer.

Rgds

\\/

Don't let them kill Russian
ANU Russian Club: "Kruzhok"

Welcome to the Home Page of Kruzhok, the Russian Club at the Australian
National University.
Linked to the Russian Page in the Department of Modern European Languages.

About Kruzhok

Kruzhok was re-formed in May, 1998, to fight the proposed axing of Russian
by the University. Russian had been taught at ANU for more that 40 years,
and due to short sighted funding cuts it may be eliminated. Students half
way through degrees could find themselves without a course. Staff, several
of whom already work on a voluntary basis, will lose their jobs. Although
only a small club, Kruzhok has successfully raised funds and is preparing a
major campaign to save Russian.

The Russian Situation

The problems started in the second teaching week of the year. The twelve
students wanting to start first year Russian were informed that their
course had been cancelled. This was after they and enrolled, bought
textbooks and started the course. Two students, who came to the University
specifically to study Russian, have since left. Others have soldiered on in
voluntary classes, for which they will receive no course credits and for
which the staff aren't being paid.

Despite collecting 1,500 signatures on a petition within two and a half
days of the first year cut, University management still refused to listen.
In order to achieve actual savings of around $3000, they were prepared to
kill a subject. Even with a small enrollment, student's HECS fees could
have paid for the course. Now Uni administration is considering abolishing
an entire programme and losing the capacity to teach Russian entirely,
merely for the sake of cutting one salaried position. Although the entire
Modern European Languages Department at ANU is being decimated by savage
cuts, Russian is the only programme facing elimination, so far.

The Plans - So Far

Russian's problems lie with an administration obsessed with enrollment
figures, and Kruzhok plans to hit them where it hurts. A letter writing
campaign is planned for schools, telling them about the Russian course at
ANU while warning that potential students face an ever shrinking choice of
courses, increasing class sizes and the very real danger of being treated
in the same, appalling manner in which first year Russian was treated this
year.

Furthermore, we feel it only fair to write to the editors of newspapers in
South East Asia, to warn potential international students against paying
large fees to come to ANU when they will face similar problems.

Kruzhok hopes that by informing Uni administration of the potential impact
on enrollments of falling standards and course cuts, we can encourage the
hierarchy to rethink their short sighted decision to cut Russian.

Drafts and Letters already sent

How Can You Help?

By writing to the Vice Chancellor of ANU,  Prof R Deane Terrell,

Vice-Chancellor at anu.edu.au

and the Dean of the Arts Faculty, Prof Paul Thom,

and telling them that you, as a student, potential student, alumni or
community member are not happy with the fate of Russian. Let them know the
effect this has on the standing of the University. Maybe if enough people
say something they will finally unblock their ears to the cries of
students, staff and the community.Their snail mail addresses are here.

Snail Mail Addresses:

Prof R Deane Terrell
Vice Chancellor
Australian National University
Acton ACT 0200

Prof Paul Thom
Dean, Faculty of Arts
Australian National University
Acton ACT 0200

If you have any suggestions about saving Russian, or comments on this page,
please do not hesitate to send them to us.


Don't let them kill Russian
Last Modified 27 July 1998
Comments/Suggestions: kruzhok at hotmail.com

--
Rita Bogna
Adelaide, South Australia
e-mail: rabogna at dove.net.au
http://dove.net.au/~rabogna/home.htm
http://dove.net.au/~rabogna/russian/russian1.htm


From natalia.pylypiuk at ualberta.ca  Fri Aug  7 17:44:22 1998
From: natalia.pylypiuk at ualberta.ca (Natalia Pylypiuk)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 10:44:22 -0700
Subject: ad hominem vs. intellectual inquiry
In-Reply-To: <l03110701b1f0e256ce37@[195.232.77.213]>
Message-ID: <FRI.7.AUG.1998.104422.0700.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>So, all Linguistic and Civilization courses I attended during years at a
>French University are false ! A myth ! Bewildering !
>The worse is I can't even go to neighbouring countries to study the truth :
>I will be obliged to go to Japan , as  language teachers from all romance
>countries are paid to lie.
>Thank you for bringing me the light.
>Georges

The tone of the above, the response to Irene Thompson, and previous
invectives directed at Tsuji Yoshimasa are all unacceptable!

****************************************************

Natalia Pylypiuk, Associate Professor,
Department of Modern Languages & Cultural Studies:
                                  Germanic, Romance and Slavic
200 Arts Building,  University of Alberta
Edmonton, AB T6G 2E6
Canada

****************************************************

office phone & voice mail:     (403)  492 - 3498
departmental fax:                      (403)  492 - 9106

e-mail address:                       natalia.pylypiuk at ualberta.ca

www.ualberta.ca/~uklanlit/Homepage.html

****************************************************


From douglas at speakeasy.org  Fri Aug  7 16:53:51 1998
From: douglas at speakeasy.org (a telegraph to your soul)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:53:51 -0700
Subject: ad hominem vs. intellectual inquiry
In-Reply-To: <v04003a01b1f0e9abdeb1@[24.108.10.164]>
Message-ID: <FRI.7.AUG.1998.095351.0700.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

On Fri, 7 Aug 1998, Natalia Pylypiuk wrote:

> >So, all Linguistic and Civilization courses I attended during years at a
> >French University are false ! A myth ! Bewildering !
> >The worse is I can't even go to neighbouring countries to study the truth :
> >I will be obliged to go to Japan , as  language teachers from all romance
> >countries are paid to lie.
> >Thank you for bringing me the light.
> >Georges
>
> The tone of the above, the response to Irene Thompson, and previous
> invectives directed at Tsuji Yoshimasa are all unacceptable!

Is it possible that, much like there's cofusion between
Slavic/Slavonic/Slavistic, that Tsuji (presumably a student) is a bit
confused between "these languages are descended from the same root as
Latin" and "these languages are descended from Latin"?

I'm not criticizing Tsuji - far from it: I respect his insights, though I
disagree, and I respect his ability to communicate in a language *far*
removed in so many ways from his own native language.  What I'm asking,
I suppose, is why some of you - people who should KNOW how difficult it is
to communicate in a foreign language - are jumping all over him and
committing straw man and ad hominem fallacies without first trying to
understand his viewpoint.  This isn't war, this isn't a "mortal insult" to
our societies, cultures, intellects, or whatnot - it's a discussion list,
composed of supposedly educated people who presumably know better than to
behave like a couple of barroom bullies looking for a fight.

Nebezpokoiemtes, soutrudniki.

And if you're going to flame ME, at least attack my presumptuous use of an
alternate form of the imperative, please.  =)
--
"Douglas, if you set me on fire, I will scream and burn." - P. Jones


From aisrael at american.edu  Fri Aug  7 19:12:51 1998
From: aisrael at american.edu (Alina Israeli)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 15:12:51 -0400
Subject: For whom the bell tolls
Message-ID: <FRI.7.AUG.1998.151251.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

The problem is not only that Russian is no longer taught in Australia and
people loose their jobs, but also that Australian institutions tend to not
honor the grand-father clause. Some time ago I received a letter (as some
of you probably did) from a person who has completed her dissertation but
had no way to defend it because the program has been eliminated. (Reminds
me of the Soviet government not honoring its foreign debts.)

AI


From vidan at fas.harvard.edu  Fri Aug  7 19:34:02 1998
From: vidan at fas.harvard.edu (Aida Vidan)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 15:34:02 -0400
Subject: roommate needed
Message-ID: <FRI.7.AUG.1998.153402.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

I am looking for a female roommate who already has a room reservation for
AAASS in Boca Raton. Please respond off the list.

Aida Vidan
vidan at fas.harvard.edu


From billings at uni-leipzig.de  Fri Aug  7 21:36:35 1998
From: billings at uni-leipzig.de (Loren A. BILLINGS)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 16:36:35 -0500
Subject: For whom the bell tolls
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980730111210.307fa770@slt.lk>
Message-ID: <FRI.7.AUG.1998.163635.0500.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Let me get this straight:  Russian will no longer be taught as even an
undergraduate degree specialization (=major) anywhere in Australia?  If so,
what a shame!  --LAB


From gadassov at csi.com  Sat Aug  8 16:57:45 1998
From: gadassov at csi.com (Adassovsky)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 17:57:45 +0100
Subject: ad hominem vs. intellectual inquiry
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980807094740.2009C-100000@eve.speakeasy.org>
Message-ID: <SAT.8.AUG.1998.175745.0100.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>On Fri, 7 Aug 1998, Natalia Pylypiuk wrote:
>
>> >So, all Linguistic and Civilization courses I attended during years at a
>> >French University are false ! A myth ! Bewildering !
>> >The worse is I can't even go to neighbouring countries to study the truth :
>> >I will be obliged to go to Japan , as  language teachers from all romance
>> >countries are paid to lie.
>> >Thank you for bringing me the light.
>> >Georges
>>
>> The tone of the above, the response to Irene Thompson, and previous
>> invectives directed at Tsuji Yoshimasa are all unacceptable!

As I wrote the text above, as well as the answer to I. Thompson, I feel
free to answer :

What is acceptable, and what is unacceptable ?
Is it acceptable, when some participants of this list decided to discuss a
subject,  that a person censor the subject, telling "that's enough, find
another topic or go to the beach !" ?
Is it acceptable that a participant tells to a French linguist : "all
language teachers from your country are paid to lie" ? As an American
professor, would you accept the parallel ?

My answers were not invectives, nor were they insulting, just a bit
sarcastic, I confess. That's a part of my character.

Georges.


From douglas at speakeasy.org  Sat Aug  8 16:21:05 1998
From: douglas at speakeasy.org (a telegraph to your soul)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 09:21:05 -0700
Subject: ad hominem vs. intellectual inquiry
In-Reply-To: <l03110701b1f230763f4e@[195.232.76.237]>
Message-ID: <SAT.8.AUG.1998.092105.0700.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

On Sat, 8 Aug 1998, Adassovsky wrote:

> Is it acceptable, when some participants of this list decided to discuss a
> subject,  that a person censor the subject, telling "that's enough, find
> another topic or go to the beach !" ?

That's neither censorship nor prior restraint, I think; I believe that's
more like "being fed up."  I don't know the French idiom, so my English
one will have to do for now.

> Is it acceptable that a participant tells to a French linguist : "all
> language teachers from your country are paid to lie" ? As an American
> professor, would you accept the parallel ?

If the participant believes that the French teachers are lying?  Yes.  If
the participant believes that the American teachers are lying?  Yes.

> My answers were not invectives, nor were they insulting, just a bit
> sarcastic, I confess. That's a part of my character.

More than sarcastic - they were deliberately hurtful, or at least seemed
to be.
--
"Douglas, if you set me on fire, I will scream and burn." - P. Jones


From gadassov at csi.com  Sun Aug  9 18:52:00 1998
From: gadassov at csi.com (Adassovsky)
Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 19:52:00 +0100
Subject: ad hominem vs. intellectual inquiry
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980808091838.14149C-100000@eve.speakeasy.org>
Message-ID: <SUN.9.AUG.1998.195200.0100.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

P. Jones wrote:

>That's neither censorship nor prior restraint, I think; I believe that's
>more like "being fed up."  I don't know the French idiom, so my English
>one will have to do for now.

Well, when I am fed up, I put the message in the trash and respect other
people enough to let them discuss. There seems to be cultural differences
between USA and European people concerning the perception of such attitudes.

>If the participant believes that the French teachers are lying?  Yes.  If
>the participant believes that the American teachers are lying?  Yes.

I don't believe you really think so. The original message was pedantic,
directed right to my specialty, and implicated that language teachers from
all romance countries consciously lied because they were paid for it, so
that  all our University system is not free. Such an opinion deserved an
answer.

Now, I propose a subject, instead of going to the beach, although the
weather is very fine here on the Mediterranean :

Is French an "idiom", or a "Language" ?
I've just looked up in my dictionnary ( The concise Oxford dictionnary of
current English) and found :
Language : a vocabulary and way of using it prevalent in one or more countries.
Idiom : language of a people or country.

Aren't they touchy, these Frenchies !

Georges.


From douglas at speakeasy.org  Sun Aug  9 18:23:54 1998
From: douglas at speakeasy.org (a telegraph to your soul)
Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 11:23:54 -0700
Subject: ad hominem vs. intellectual inquiry
In-Reply-To: <l03110700b1f335ba0627@[195.232.76.175]>
Message-ID: <SUN.9.AUG.1998.112354.0700.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

On Sun, 9 Aug 1998, Adassovsky wrote:

> P. Jones wrote:

Umm, no - I'm Douglas Taylor.  P. Jones is just referenced in my sig.  =)

> Well, when I am fed up, I put the message in the trash and respect other
> people enough to let them discuss. There seems to be cultural differences
> between USA and European people concerning the perception of such attitudes.

Except Tsuji is not from the US, at a guess.  What with his references to
growing up Japanese, living in Japan, going to Japanese university, et
alia.

> I don't believe you really think so. The original message was pedantic,
> directed right to my specialty, and implicated that language teachers from
> all romance countries consciously lied because they were paid for it, so
> that  all our University system is not free. Such an opinion deserved an
> answer.

Actually, I do think so.  But if in your Gallic fervor to defend your
language and institutions you choose to believe otherwise, there is
nothing I can do to convince you.

> Now, I propose a subject, instead of going to the beach, although the
> weather is very fine here on the Mediterranean :
>
> Is French an "idiom", or a "Language" ?
> I've just looked up in my dictionnary ( The concise Oxford dictionnary of
> current English) and found :
> Language : a vocabulary and way of using it prevalent in one or more
 countries.
> Idiom : language of a people or country.

I don't have a copy of a "real" dictionary handy - my den is a mess.  So
off of Microsoft Bookshelf 98, I grabbed the following definition (one
that doesn't simply "idiom" to complete nonsense):
idiom --  noun
1.      A speech form or an expression of a given language that is
peculiar to itself grammatically or cannot be understood from the
individual meanings of its elements, as in keep tabs on.
2.      The specific grammatical, syntactic, and structural character of a
given language.
3.      Regional speech or dialect.
4.      a. A specialized vocabulary used by a group of people; jargon:
legal idiom. b. A style or manner of expression peculiar to a given
people: "Also important is the uneasiness I've always felt at cutting
myself off from my idiom, the American habits of speech and jest and
reaction, all of them entirely different from the local variety" (S.J.
Perelman).
5.      A style of artistic expression characteristic of a particular
individual, school, period, or medium: the idiom of the French
impressionists; the punk rock idiom.

Excerpted from The American Heritage. Dictionary of the English Language,
Third Edition  ) 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version
licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution in
accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights
reserved.

--
"Douglas, if you set me on fire, I will scream and burn." - P. Jones


From dietlinde.kastelliz at kfunigraz.ac.at  Mon Aug 10 11:37:15 1998
From: dietlinde.kastelliz at kfunigraz.ac.at (dietlinde.kastelliz)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:37:15 +0200
Subject: Help! Bishkek state university
Message-ID: <MON.10.AUG.1998.133715.0200.>

Dear list-readers,

For weeks now I've been trying to get through to the Bishkek state
university on the phone, on the fax and by e-mail. But either nobody is
interested in answering the phone, reading faxes or e-mails, or they
didn't pay their electricity bill. Or are they just on holiday? Or do I
have wrong addresses and telephone numbers?
Can anybody give me a hint or a second e-mail address, telephone or fax
number? The e-mail address I have is: rectorat at bgupub.freenet.bishkek.su

Any help to: dietlinde.kastelliz at kfunigraz.ac.at

Thank's in advance!


From Valeri.Gretchko at rz.ruhr-uni-bochum.de  Mon Aug 10 13:12:23 1998
From: Valeri.Gretchko at rz.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (Valeri Gretchko)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 09:12:23 -0400
Subject: Evrazija/Kazaxstan
Message-ID: <MON.10.AUG.1998.091223.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Dear SEELANGers,

could anyone be so kind to provide me some information about the following
organisations:

Informatsionno-analiticeskij tsentr "Evrazija" (Moskva-Alma-Aty)
Fond "Kazaxstan - XXI vek" (USA)
Fond zashcity glasnosti
Fond "INDEM" (Informacija na sluzhbe demokratii, Moskva)


Thanking you in advance,
Sincerely,

Valerij Gretchko
Dept. of Slavic Languages
University of Bochum
Germany


From brifkin at facstaff.wisc.edu  Mon Aug 10 18:05:57 1998
From: brifkin at facstaff.wisc.edu (Benjamin Rifkin)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:05:57 -0500
Subject: internet radio
Message-ID: <MON.10.AUG.1998.130557.0500.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Dear Colleagues:

I am trying to track down sources of radio broadcasts by internet for Slavic
and East European cultures OTHER THAN RUSSIAN.  I am familiar with the
variety of sources for Russian, but am looking for sources for other cultures.

The Center for Russia, Eastern Europe and Central Asia at the University of
Wisconsin-Madison has a web site for links to many audio sources for these
cultures.  The URL for that page is:

http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/creeca/pages/goradio.html

The audio sources on that page are as follows and I would appreciate it very
much if you would inform me off-list if you know of any other sources:

Albanian:  Voice of Russia Albanian-language broadasts

Bosnian:  Domovina Net Radio

Bulgarian:  International Radio, Voice of Russian Bulgarian-language broadcasts

Croatian:  Radio 101, Radio Rijeka, RTV

Czech:  Radio Prague, Central Europe Report, KISS Hady, Stefanikova, Live
Top 40, Voice of America Czech-language broadcasts, Voice of Russia
Czech-language broadcasts

Hungarian:  DUNO, Hallgassa, Kossuth, Radio Budapest, Radio Eger, Petofi
Radio, Voice of America Hungarian-language broadcasts

Lithuanian:  Radio Vilnius

Polish:  International Radio Polskie radio, Polskie radio in the US, Polish
radio online, Polskie Radio SA, Jedynka, Trojka, Radio Akademickie Krakow,
Radio Jowisz, Jelenia Gora, Radio Rak, Voice of America Polish-language
broadcasts

Romanian:  Kappa TV, Radio Horion, Radio Romania, Radio Sud

Serbian:  Oppennet, B92, RTV, Trezor, Voice of America Serbian-language
broadcasting

Slovak:  Radio Twist, US Slovak, Voice of America Slovak-language broadcasting

Slovenian:  TV Slovenia

Ukrainian:  Voice of America Ukrainian-language broadcasting, Voice of
Canada Ukrainian-language broadcasting


Thanks to all for your help.

Ben Rifkin

////////////////////////////////////////

Benjamin Rifkin

Associate Professor of Slavic Languages
Coordinator of Russian-Language Instruction

Department of Slavic Languages & Literatures
University of Wisconsin-Madison
1432 Van Hise Hall, 1220 Linden Dr.
Madison, WI  53706  USA

voice:  608/262-1623
fax:  608/265-2814
e-mail:  brifkin at facstaff.wisc.edu

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\


From pyz at panix.com  Mon Aug 10 18:29:20 1998
From: pyz at panix.com (Twisted ...)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 14:29:20 -0400
Subject: internet radio
In-Reply-To: <199808101803.NAA75758@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.10.AUG.1998.142920.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

At 01:05 PM 8/10/98 -0500, Benjamin Rifkin wrote:
>Dear Colleagues:
>
>I am trying to track down sources of radio broadcasts by internet for Slavic
>and East European cultures OTHER THAN RUSSIAN.  I am familiar with the
>variety of sources for Russian, but am looking for sources for other
cultures.
>
>The Center for Russia, Eastern Europe and Central Asia at the University of
>Wisconsin-Madison has a web site for links to many audio sources for these
>cultures.  The URL for that page is:

You can try BRAMA's UkraiNewstand located at http://www.brama.com/news/
(it's companion Ukrainian-language page is at
http://www.brama.com/news/ukr.html).

There you can find links to VOA's, Lviv's Radio Lux, and RFE/RL's Ukrainian
language Internet Radio broadcasts which use RealPlayer.

[...]

>Thanks to all for your help.

Thanks for yours also.

>Ben Rifkin
>
>////////////////////////////////////////
>
>Benjamin Rifkin
>
>Associate Professor of Slavic Languages
>Coordinator of Russian-Language Instruction

Max Pyziur                                         BRAMA - Gateway Ukraine
pyz at panix.com                                      http://www.brama.com/


From akalpt at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 10 19:03:15 1998
From: akalpt at hotmail.com (lindsey taxman)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 12:03:15 PDT
Subject: internet radio
Message-ID: <MON.10.AUG.1998.120315.PDT.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

You may also want to try RFE/RL's news site at http://www.rferl.org.
They have radio broadcasts from across the FSU, eastern europe and
central asia daily.

Lindsey Taxman
ltaxman at ucsj.com

>>From owner-seelangs at cunyvm.cuny.edu Mon Aug 10 11:04:14 1998
>Received: from listserv (listserv.cuny.edu) by listserv.cuny.edu (LSMTP
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10 Aug 1998 14:04:51 -0400
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>          14:04:44 -0400
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(8.8.6/50);
>          Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:03:45 -0500
>X-Sender: brifkin at facstaff.wisc.edu
>X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Approved-By:  Benjamin Rifkin <brifkin at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>
>Message-ID:  <199808101803.NAA75758 at mail1.doit.wisc.edu>
>Date:         Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:05:57 -0500
>Reply-To:     "SEELangs: Slavic & E. European Languages & literatures
list"
>              <SEELANGS at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>Sender:       "SEELangs: Slavic & E. European Languages & literatures
list"
>              <SEELANGS at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>From:         Benjamin Rifkin <brifkin at facstaff.wisc.edu>
>Subject:      internet radio
>To:           SEELANGS at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>Dear Colleagues:
>
>I am trying to track down sources of radio broadcasts by internet for
Slavic
>and East European cultures OTHER THAN RUSSIAN.  I am familiar with the
>variety of sources for Russian, but am looking for sources for other
cultures.
>
>The Center for Russia, Eastern Europe and Central Asia at the
University of
>Wisconsin-Madison has a web site for links to many audio sources for
these
>cultures.  The URL for that page is:
>
>http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/creeca/pages/goradio.html
>
>The audio sources on that page are as follows and I would appreciate it
very
>much if you would inform me off-list if you know of any other sources:
>
>Albanian:  Voice of Russia Albanian-language broadasts
>
>Bosnian:  Domovina Net Radio
>
>Bulgarian:  International Radio, Voice of Russian Bulgarian-language
broadcasts
>
>Croatian:  Radio 101, Radio Rijeka, RTV
>
>Czech:  Radio Prague, Central Europe Report, KISS Hady, Stefanikova,
Live
>Top 40, Voice of America Czech-language broadcasts, Voice of Russia
>Czech-language broadcasts
>
>Hungarian:  DUNO, Hallgassa, Kossuth, Radio Budapest, Radio Eger,
Petofi
>Radio, Voice of America Hungarian-language broadcasts
>
>Lithuanian:  Radio Vilnius
>
>Polish:  International Radio Polskie radio, Polskie radio in the US,
Polish
>radio online, Polskie Radio SA, Jedynka, Trojka, Radio Akademickie
Krakow,
>Radio Jowisz, Jelenia Gora, Radio Rak, Voice of America Polish-language
>broadcasts
>
>Romanian:  Kappa TV, Radio Horion, Radio Romania, Radio Sud
>
>Serbian:  Oppennet, B92, RTV, Trezor, Voice of America Serbian-language
>broadcasting
>
>Slovak:  Radio Twist, US Slovak, Voice of America Slovak-language
broadcasting
>
>Slovenian:  TV Slovenia
>
>Ukrainian:  Voice of America Ukrainian-language broadcasting, Voice of
>Canada Ukrainian-language broadcasting
>
>
>Thanks to all for your help.
>
>Ben Rifkin
>
>////////////////////////////////////////
>
>Benjamin Rifkin
>
>Associate Professor of Slavic Languages
>Coordinator of Russian-Language Instruction
>
>Department of Slavic Languages & Literatures
>University of Wisconsin-Madison
>1432 Van Hise Hall, 1220 Linden Dr.
>Madison, WI  53706  USA
>
>voice:  608/262-1623
>fax:  608/265-2814
>e-mail:  brifkin at facstaff.wisc.edu
>
>\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From jfwhite at u.washington.edu  Mon Aug 10 19:16:40 1998
From: jfwhite at u.washington.edu (J. White)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 12:16:40 -0700
Subject: internet radio
In-Reply-To: <199808101803.NAA75758@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.10.AUG.1998.121640.0700.JFWHITE@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Hi Benjamin,

There is an excellent resource page in Hungarian:
Magyar nyelvu radioadsok az Interneten
http://www.compmore.net/~josephc/radio/radiok_ra.html

(Lists many Hungarian stations and programs available in Realaudio
and includes direct links.)

*and* there's even a page for Hungarian Internet TV feeds/programs:

Magyar nyelvu televziadsok az Interneten
http://www.compmore.net/~josephc/radio/tv_ra.html

************

For Latvia, you can connect to Latvijas Radio live at:

http://www.radio.org.lv/realaud/index_a.htm

I have a number of other 'finds' to share but do not have the URLs here at
school, so will post later from home.

regards,  Jake White / Serials Acquisitions
          U of Washington Libraries, Seattle




On Mon, 10 Aug 1998, Benjamin Rifkin wrote:

> Dear Colleagues:
>
> I am trying to track down sources of radio broadcasts by internet for Slavic
> and East European cultures OTHER THAN RUSSIAN.  I am familiar with the
> variety of sources for Russian, but am looking for sources for other cultures.
>
> The Center for Russia, Eastern Europe and Central Asia at the University of
> Wisconsin-Madison has a web site for links to many audio sources for these
> cultures.  The URL for that page is:
>
> http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/creeca/pages/goradio.html
>
> The audio sources on that page are as follows and I would appreciate it very
> much if you would inform me off-list if you know of any other sources:
>
> Albanian:  Voice of Russia Albanian-language broadasts
>
> Bosnian:  Domovina Net Radio
>
> Bulgarian:  International Radio, Voice of Russian Bulgarian-language
 broadcasts
>
> Croatian:  Radio 101, Radio Rijeka, RTV
>
> Czech:  Radio Prague, Central Europe Report, KISS Hady, Stefanikova, Live
> Top 40, Voice of America Czech-language broadcasts, Voice of Russia
> Czech-language broadcasts
>
> Hungarian:  DUNO, Hallgassa, Kossuth, Radio Budapest, Radio Eger, Petofi
> Radio, Voice of America Hungarian-language broadcasts
>
> Lithuanian:  Radio Vilnius
>
> Polish:  International Radio Polskie radio, Polskie radio in the US, Polish
> radio online, Polskie Radio SA, Jedynka, Trojka, Radio Akademickie Krakow,
> Radio Jowisz, Jelenia Gora, Radio Rak, Voice of America Polish-language
> broadcasts
>
> Romanian:  Kappa TV, Radio Horion, Radio Romania, Radio Sud
>
> Serbian:  Oppennet, B92, RTV, Trezor, Voice of America Serbian-language
> broadcasting
>
> Slovak:  Radio Twist, US Slovak, Voice of America Slovak-language broadcasting
>
> Slovenian:  TV Slovenia
>
> Ukrainian:  Voice of America Ukrainian-language broadcasting, Voice of
> Canada Ukrainian-language broadcasting
>
>
> Thanks to all for your help.
>
> Ben Rifkin
>
> ////////////////////////////////////////
>
> Benjamin Rifkin
>
> Associate Professor of Slavic Languages
> Coordinator of Russian-Language Instruction
>
> Department of Slavic Languages & Literatures
> University of Wisconsin-Madison
> 1432 Van Hise Hall, 1220 Linden Dr.
> Madison, WI  53706  USA
>
> voice:  608/262-1623
> fax:  608/265-2814
> e-mail:  brifkin at facstaff.wisc.edu
>
> \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
>


From jfwhite at u.washington.edu  Tue Aug 11 05:25:52 1998
From: jfwhite at u.washington.edu (J. White)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 22:25:52 -0700
Subject: internet radio
In-Reply-To: <199808101803.NAA75758@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.10.AUG.1998.222552.0700.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

On Mon, 10 Aug 1998, Benjamin Rifkin wrote:

> Dear Colleagues:
>
> I am trying to track down sources of radio broadcasts by internet for Slavic
> and East European cultures OTHER THAN RUSSIAN.  I am familiar with the

Jake replies:

Here are a few more links I've found interesting:

CROATIAN:  HRT RealAudio Page http://www.hrt.hr/streams/streams_hrv.html
contains direct links to HRT1, HRT2, HRT3 radio, Radio Osijek, Radio
Rijeka, Radio Sljeme, and the HRT TV feed

ESTONIAN: The Eesti Raadio page (http://www.er.ee/) contains direct
Realaudio links to Vikerraadio, Raadio 2, Klassikraadio, Raadio 4, and
Eesti Raadio
Raadio KUKU is at: http://www.online.ee/realaudio/kuku.ram (Hard to
connect sometimes)

CZECH: Cesky Rozhlas (in mono and stereo) at:
http://radiozurnal.rozhlas.cz/zive_radiozurnal.htm

Rozhlas 2 (Prague) at: http://praha.rozhlas.cz/zive_praha.htm

Rozhlas 3 (Vltava) at: http://vltava.rozhlas.cz/zive_vltava.htm

(Above are 3 different stations, stereo and mono and 20 Kbps with good
sound)

Evropa 2 at: http://www.evropa2.cz/live.htm

Finally, there's a very cool Czech Country Music Station, "Eldoradio"  at:
http://live.eldoradio.cz/ (It has both 28.8 K and 56K feeds -- the 56K
feed is amazing sound if you have a fast connection)


From KatkouskiV at praguemail.rferl.org  Tue Aug 11 10:32:28 1998
From: KatkouskiV at praguemail.rferl.org (KatkouskiV)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:32:28 U
Subject: internet radio
Message-ID: <TUE.11.AUG.1998.103228.U.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>You may also want to try RFE/RL's news site at http://www.rferl.org.
>They have radio broadcasts from across the FSU, eastern europe and
>central asia daily.
>
>Lindsey Taxman
>ltaxman at ucsj.com

That's probably the best single web-site with multi-linguial broadcasting.
You have to download RealPlayer and find out the schedules for each
service. Then, you are all set. Unfortunately, the audio archives are
not available, so you have to listen at exact times of broadcasting.

To hear the beautiful Belarusan language -- click on the second URL
from my signature...

Best,
U.K.

________________________________________________________
NASHA NIVA:      http://members.xoom.com/Nasa_Niva
RADYJO SVABODA:    http://www.rferl.org/bd/be/index.html
________________________________________________________


From mnafpakt at umich.edu  Tue Aug 11 14:39:50 1998
From: mnafpakt at umich.edu (Margarita Nafpaktitis)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:39:50 -0400
Subject: Course materials for "America Through Russian Eyes"
Message-ID: <TUE.11.AUG.1998.103950.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

To my SEELANGS colleagues,

Some of you may faintly remember my plea for help and suggestions last
November as I was working on the syllabus for a 4-week course on "America
Through Russian Eyes."  I received many invaluable replies, and -- at long
last -- I have come up with a summary of suggestions from members of the
list, since they may prove useful to others as well.

Since it is a *long* summary (it includes SEELANGS member suggestions,
additional, potentially useful sources I came across while researching
the topic, and a discussion of materials I ended up using in class, along
with some brief commentary on how they worked out), I hesitate to post the
whole thing to the list.  If you would like to receive it via e-mail,
please respond to me directly (and not to the whole list) at
mnafpakt at umich.edu and I will be glad to send it to you.

However, I would like to use this forum to gratefully acknowledge the
following people for their help and encouragement:  KSANA BLANK, DANIEL
COLLINS, KAREN EVANS-ROMAINE, SIBELAN FORRESTER, DAVID FREEDEL, ALINA
ISRAELI, ULADZIMIR KATKOUSKI, ELENA KATSAROS, KAREN ROBBLEE, JENNIFER
RYAN, EMILY TALL, IRENE THOMPSON, JULIA TRUBIKHINA, RUSSELL VALENTINO, and
MARIKA WHALEY.  If I have inadvertently left someone out, please let me
know!

Again, if you are interested in receiving a copy of this summary by
e-mail, please send me a message.  I welcome any further coments or
feedback on this topic and will be glad to answer any questions on what
I compiled as best I can.

Margarita Nafpaktitis
Ph.D. Candidate / Graduate Student Instructor
Department of Slavic Languages & Literatures
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor

mnafpakt at umich.edu


From Hardman at actr.org  Tue Aug 11 14:59:37 1998
From: Hardman at actr.org (Jack Hardman)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:59:37 -0400
Subject: Course materials for "America Through Russian Eyes" -Reply
Message-ID: <TUE.11.AUG.1998.105937.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Dear Margarita:

I would like very much to receive a summary of the suggestions you
have compiled for your "America Through Russian Eyes" course.

Thanks,
Jack Hardman


From SLBAEHR at VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU  Tue Aug 11 18:18:07 1998
From: SLBAEHR at VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU (Steve Baehr)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 14:18:07 EDT
Subject: Business Russian course
Message-ID: <TUE.11.AUG.1998.141807.EDT.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

During the coming semester, I will be teaching for the first time a course
on "Business Russian." As the basic text, we
will be using N. Milman's +Business Russian:
A Cultural Approach+. I would be very grateful to receive off-line
any suggestions for supplementary material and syllabi for any
successful course in Business Russian. Any general suggestions for
such a course would also be most welcome, as would specific suggestions
for more effectively using the Milman text.

Thanks.
   Steve Baehr

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Stephen L. Baehr (slbaehr at vtvm1.cc.vt.edu OR slbaehr at vt.edu>
NB: AFTER 5/1/99 ADDRESS WILL ONLY BE: slbaehr at vt.edu
Professor of Russian
Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
Blacksburg, VA 24061-0225
Telephone: (540)-231-8323; FAX (540) 231-4812


From natalia.pylypiuk at ualberta.ca  Tue Aug 11 21:48:47 1998
From: natalia.pylypiuk at ualberta.ca (Natalia Pylypiuk)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 14:48:47 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Azerbaijani Interpreters Needed
Message-ID: <TUE.11.AUG.1998.144847.0700.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Perhaps fellow SEELANhivtsi can help with the following:
********************************************************************

>Date:         Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:24:38 -0600
>Reply-To: Less Commonly Taught Language teachers <lctl-t at tc.umn.edu>
>From: Louis Janus <janus005 at maroon.tc.umn.edu>
>Subject: Azerbaijani Interpreters Needed
>Comments: cc: bkranick at dc.berlitz.com
>To: Multiple recipients of list LCTL-T <lctl-t at tc.umn.edu>
>
>I received the following request from <bkranick at dc.berlitz.com>
>
>===============================
>
>
>     Hello I am writing to you from Berlitz International in Washington DC.
>     I am hoping that you may be able to assist us in locating individuals
>     who may be able to speak Azerbaijani and English.  We have a great
>     need for Azerbaijani interpreters currently in various locations,
>     especially Detroit, Michigan.
>
>     The candidate must be either a U.S. citizen or permanent resident.
>     The work would be paid freelance work interpreting at immigration
>     court.
>
>     Any information you may be able to provide would be greatly
>     appreciated.
>
>     Please contact me at:  bkranick at dc.berlitz.com
>     or at 888-241-9149 ext.117
>
>     Thanks!
>
>.............................................
>Problems? Please write Louis Janus, listowner,
>LCTL at umn.edu
>.............................................


From natalia.pylypiuk at ualberta.ca  Wed Aug 12 07:37:34 1998
From: natalia.pylypiuk at ualberta.ca (Natalia Pylypiuk)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 00:37:34 -0700
Subject: BeloRUSSIAN vs. Belarusian
In-Reply-To: <v01540b02b1e89329bd22@[208.220.24.20]>
Message-ID: <WED.12.AUG.1998.003734.0700.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

In view of the recent discussion, may I draw the attention of SEELANGERS
interested in Lukashenka's activities to the following article:

LANGUAGE ON TRIAL by Jan Maksymiuk
RFE/RL NEWSLINE Vol. 2, No. 152 Part II, 10 August 1998

********* A few excerpts follow: ************

        In 1997, the Belarusian National Assembly passed a
law "On the Press and Other Media," which allowed the
government in May 1998 to issue a warning against the biweekly
"Nasha Niva." An independent newspaper published entirely in
Belarusian and with a circulation of some 5,000, "Nasha
Niva" ...uses the traditiona Belarusian orthography, which was
changed by decree under Joseph Stalin's regime in 1933.

 ...The state, which from 1991 to 1994 did a great deal to promote
both the formerly neglected Belarusian culture and education in
the Belarusian language, has practically ceased to support
either under Lukashenka.
        For example, in 1994 there were 220 schools in
Minsk whose language of instruction was Belarusian. Two years
later, their number had shrunk to fewer than 20. ...
        Lukashenka has made a point of ostentatiously
promoting Russian-language and  Soviet culture in Belarus. In a
widely quoted statement, he once asserted that "one cannot
express anything deep in Belarusian."
...
        Dubavets is not the only one to oppose the 1933
orthography reform. The "Belarusian Language
Encyclopedia," published in Minsk in 1994, states that the 1933 reform
focused "not so much on reflecting the specifically
national character of the Belarusian language as on bringing its
orthography in line with the Russian orthographic
tradition." In a wider sense, the 1933 ban on the traditional
Belarusian spelling reflected Stalin's idea of merging the globe's
cultures into one with a single language. Presumably,
that culture was to be Soviet and the language Russian. In
this way, the Belarusian language became a victim of Stalin's
futuristic vision.
        Some of the best-known Belarusian linguists have
come out in support of the spelling used by "Nasha Niva."
International human right organizations have protested,
pointing that the State Press Committee's warning
violates international law--in particular, the International
Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, to which Belarus is a
signatory. But..."no linguistic or even
legal arguments are of any importance" in this case. It is the
language that is on trial, not the spelling.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
               Copyright (c) 1998 RFE/RL, Inc.


From ledept at maik.rssi.ru  Wed Aug 12 08:28:43 1998
From: ledept at maik.rssi.ru (Tim Ross)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 11:28:43 +0300
Subject: EDITING POSITIONS IN MOSCOW
Message-ID: <WED.12.AUG.1998.112843.0300.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

   INTERNSHIP IN MOSCOW:

Edit English-language journals of the
Russian Academy of Sciences

Learn about publishing and editing

Work in Russia

MAIK "Nauka" is a Russian-American company that translates and publishes
over eighty journals of the Russian Academy of Sciences in both Russian and
English. We are seeking qualified individuals who would like to work in
Moscow as Language Editors.  Applicants should be native speakers of
English with a minimum of two years college-level Russian-language study
(or the equivalent). Editing experience and/or a background in the sciences
will strengthen your application.

You will receive:

*       Work permit and visa support
*       Monthly hard currency salary + semi-annual bonus
*       Round-trip plane ticket (reimbursement after one year)
  Help in obtaining safe, affordable housing

The internship is a year-long commitment. We do most of our hiring for the
August - August production year, but will need at least one person to begin
in October and two to start in January.  If you would like further
information, or to request an application, please contact Tim Ross,
Director of Editorial Services, MAIK "Nauka" at:

ledept at maik.rssi.ru.



************************
Tim Ross
Director of Editorial Services
MAIK Nauka
Profsoyuznaya 90
Moscow 117864, Russia
Phone:  336-0711, ext. 44
FAX: 7-095-336-0666
e-mail: ledept at maik.rssi.ru
http://www.maik.rssi.ru
************************


From lgoering at carleton.edu  Wed Aug 12 15:01:59 1998
From: lgoering at carleton.edu (Laura Goering)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 10:01:59 -0500
Subject: Herzen and Khomiakov
Message-ID: <WED.12.AUG.1998.100159.0500.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Does anyone happen to know the original source of either of the following
quotes?

Herzen: "Europe goes through the strains of burdensome pregnancy, painful
childbirth, and exhaustive nursing--and we take the child."

Khomiakov: "Our spiritual malady flowed from the cleavage between
enlightened society and the people.  Its symptom was society's profound
loss of faith in itself and in the people from whom it had torn itself away."

Thanks in advance.  Reply off-list to lgoering at carleton.edu.




*****************************************
Laura Goering
Dept. of German and Russian
Carleton College
Northfield, MN 55057
507-646-4125


From KCHRISTIANS at tntech.edu  Thu Aug 13 17:53:00 1998
From: KCHRISTIANS at tntech.edu (KEVIN CHRISTIANSON)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:53:00 -0500
Subject: Two queries about Polish usage
Message-ID: <THU.13.AUG.1998.125300.0500.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Dear Seelangers:

I understand the major uses of przepraszam (excuse me, I'm sorry, please,
etcetera), but I don't understand the differences between that all-purpose word
and przykro mi and wybacz mi.  I've heard the former used in the chorus of a
song by Lady Pank or Perfect, and the latter was used in the Polish subtitles
to THE FULLY MONTY, when a character said, po angielsku,  "I'm sorry."  Are
przykro mi and wybacz mi interchangeable, is one more commonly used than the
other, more formal, more emotional (in the sense of begging for forgiveness?

My other question is more complicated, I fear. I know the verbs [po]myslec,
sadzec, przypuszczac, uwazac, byc ciekawym, dziwic, czuczyc, obawiac, watpic,
zalowac, etcetera, but I'm not always sure which
Polish verb or expression to use for the following English expressions:

I think that
I feel that
I believe that
I guess that
I suppose that
I imagine that
I wonder if/why
I'm curious whether
I'm surprised that
I doubt that
I'm convinced that
I wish that
I regret that [I wish I could, but I'm unable to

In colloquial English I think/feel/believe are sometimes interchangeable, or at
least two of the three might be in many situations, so I suspect that some of
these Polish verbs may also be near-equivalents, while others may not,
depending on the level of formality or context which my dictionaries and
textbooks don't provide information about.

I appreciate any help you can give me.

Kevin

PS I just returned from attending the July summer session at Sopocka Szkola
Jezyka Polskiego, and highly recommend the school to anyone with a serious
interest in learning Polish and who, like me, doesn't have ready access to
Polish language courses or a large community of native speakers. Bardzo
dziekuje to those Seelangers who recommended this school to me when I sent out
my initial query about intensive summer Polish language study
three or four months ago.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Kevin Christianson, Ph.D                <<KCHRISTIANS at tntech.edu>>
English Department / Box 5053 / Tennessee Tech University / Cookeville, TN 38505

owoc owocuje w smierci / kwiatu / my tez
  a fruit matures in the death / of a flower / so do we --Malgorzata Misiewicz
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 --
Czech novelist Milan Kundera's comments on  Czech poet Jaroslav Seifert,
1984 Nobel Prize winner: "In 1969, when the Russian horror was battering the
country...[t]his little nation, trampled and doomed--how could it possibly
justify its existence? There before us was the justification: the poet, heavy,
with his crutches leaning against the table; the poet, the tangible expression
of the nation's genius."


From h.khan at wayne.edu  Sat Aug 15 04:52:17 1998
From: h.khan at wayne.edu (Halimur Khan)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 00:52:17 -0400
Subject: need a discussant for aaass panel
Message-ID: <SAT.15.AUG.1998.005217.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Dear SEELANGERS,

        If you, or anyone you know, would be interested in serving as
Discussant  at this year's AAASS in Boca Raton in the following panel,
please respond to me off list.  Thanks in advance for your help.

Panel:  Orientalism and Russian Literature
        H-61 (10-05)
        9/27/98
        10:00 am

papers:

1.      Katya Hokanson, "Nationalism and Orientalism"

2.      Halimur Khan    "Constructing Islamic Identities in the Early
                         Nineteenth-century Russian Literature: Kamensky's
                         KELISH BEY"

3.      Walter Comin-Richmond   "Tuda, tuda, gde Izanagi: Khelbnikob's
                                Mythology of Asia"


From jmcd at ziplink.net  Sat Aug 15 16:35:30 1998
From: jmcd at ziplink.net (James P. McDermott)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 12:35:30 -0400
Subject: simple Poilsh/english word processing program
Message-ID: <SAT.15.AUG.1998.123530.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

    I've just learned that the secretary at my grandparent's church types
the bulletin in Polish using an English word processing program and then
goes back and makes the diacritical marks by hand.

    Could anyone recommend a simple Polish / English word processing program
(preferably one that allows the user to toggle back and forth within one
document) ? My understanding is that the computer used is a number of years
old, most likely a 386 or a 486.

    Off list replies are fine.

Serdecznie dziekuje,

James McDermott
jmcd at ziplink.net


From bobick at accessone.com  Sun Aug 16 16:59:48 1998
From: bobick at accessone.com (Stephen Bobick)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 09:59:48 -0700
Subject: Derivation of the Word "Zhid" in Slavic Languages
Message-ID: <SUN.16.AUG.1998.095948.0700.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Dorohi SEELangci!

I would appreciate any comments concerning the etymology of the word
"zhid" (Russian) and its variants in the various Slavic languages.
Specifically, I would like to know:

  1) The etymology of the word in the various Slavic languages.
  2) In which languages the word has taken on negative, inflammatory
     connotations.
  3) In the case that the word has taken negative connotations in a given
     language, I would like to know when this occurred and how/why.

I am especially interested in the etymology and use of the word "zhyd"
in Ukrainian.  I have been informed that historically, the word has *no*
negative connotations, and that it's use in classical literature is
by itself in no way an indicator of antisemitism on the part of an author.
I'd especially like to hear comments on the difference in connotations of
the word in the Western versus Eastern Ukraine.  I'd expect that the word
carries more negative meaning in the more-Russified/Russophonic East, but
would like to know, again, when this occurred.

Lastly, I have a similar question the etymology of the word "kike", which
I have seen used as a translation for the Russian word "zhid".  Specifically,
I found the following entry in "Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary"
which piqued my interest:

  kike n. [prob. alter. of kiki, redupl. of -ki common ending of names of
  Jews who lived in Slavic countries] (1904):  JEW -- usu. taken to be
  offensive.

Could anyone comment on the proposed derivation of the word suggested
above?

Lastly, I am a non-specialist, so if these questions are readily accessible
in books, or are common knowledge, then please excuse my intruston.

Duzhe Vam dyakuyu zazdalehid',

-- Stepan Bobyk


From Rebecca.E.Matveyev at lawrence.edu  Sun Aug 16 18:39:56 1998
From: Rebecca.E.Matveyev at lawrence.edu (Rebecca E. Matveyev)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 12:39:56 -0600
Subject: Russian intonation patterns
Message-ID: <SUN.16.AUG.1998.123956.0600.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Does anyone out there know of any computer program that deals specifically
with Russian intonation patterns (whether or not they're defined according to
the traditional "IK" system), and that gives students practicing in listening
to and reproducing those patterns?

Thanks,
Rebecca


Rebecca Epstein Matveyev
Russian Department
Lawrence University
Appleton, WI 54912


From james.naughton at st-edmund-hall.oxford.ac.uk  Sun Aug 16 18:03:36 1998
From: james.naughton at st-edmund-hall.oxford.ac.uk (James Naughton)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 19:03:36 +0100
Subject: Re derivation of the word Zhid
Message-ID: <SUN.16.AUG.1998.190336.0100.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

The following is simply taken from standard dictionaries of English and the Bible and I make no claim to expert knowledge of the subject!

The English term Jew derives via Old French juieu or juiu (12th century) from Latin Iudaeus, Greek Ioudaios, from Hebrew Yehudhi.

The Slavonic term Zhid (e.g. Czech Zid with a hook over the z) has the same Hebrew origin, according to my Czech etymological dictionaries, via Old Italian Giudio, Latin Iudaeus. Etymologically it is the traditional neutral term for Jews.

The meaning in Hebrew is given as member of the tribe of Judah (Yehudhah) - Judah being one of the 12 tribes of Israel.

It is not clear according to what little I have read whether the name of the tribe does for certain come from the name of Judah, son of Jacob and Leah in Genesis.

The etymology of Judah is uncertain, but its meaning is popularly associated with yadah, praise.

James Naughton

James = anglicised form of Jacob, through Spanish Jaime. Naughton, cf. Celtic name Nechtan...


From jlrice38 at open.org  Sun Aug 16 20:43:56 1998
From: jlrice38 at open.org (James L. Rice)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 13:43:56 -0700
Subject: Re derivation of the word Zhid
Message-ID: <SUN.16.AUG.1998.134356.0700.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

On East Slavic terrain: Sreznevskii notes "zhidovin" as a pejorative in the
Hypatian Chronicle under 1175 AD, but many biblical and other church uses of
"zhid" were without negative stylistic coloring.

In Russia, Eugene Sue's JUIF ERRANT (1844-45) was at once translated into
Russian as VECHNYI ZHID.  The stylistic weight and theme of this book make
it unthinkable to translate the Russian title or refer to it now in English
as "The Eternal Yid". There "zhid" is certainly not a pejorative. The same
stylistic observation applies to Turgenev's short story "Zhid" (1847) -- a
tale too grim to be called a mere stereotype, but it would be a mistake to
translate the title as "The Yid."  The same is true of Dostoevsky's lost
drama of the 1840's, "Zhid Iankel'" (apparently elaborated from Gogol's
Iankel' in "Taras Bul'ba").

HOWEVER, we may be sure that Turgenev's mother at Spasskoe in the 1840's, or
Dostoevsky's father growing up a generation earlier in Podolian Bratslav
(which was then about 40% Jewish), or Gogol, Turgenev, Dostoevsky (and
Tolstoy, and Chekhov) themselves, found occasion to put a pejorative SPIN on
the vocable "zhid" on various occasions.

The case of Dostoevsky is a special one, because just in the era when Jews
started to become more prominent in Russian civic life, D. discussed this
development in great detail in the pages of his journal, DIARY OF A WRITER
(see index of the English edition), and even debated the issues in print
with a very intelligent Jewish writer named Kovner.  (Kovner was at the time
in prison for embezzling a fixed percentage from a Jewish bank, having
placed himself above the law following the example of Raskol'nikov in CRIME
AND PUNISHMENT.  He was thus a bit cracked, but Dostoevsky treated him with
great politeness, and never hints that he is debating a felon.)

Kovner specifically reproached Dostoevsky for using the word "zhid" in his
fiction and non-fiction.  The novelist conceded that much of what he'd
written about Jews was "unsubstantiated, frivolous... and legend" but
insisted that nothing had been ad hominem.  He stuck to his formula of a
"Jewish idea" (zhidovstvo) taking over the world from "failed Christianity."
Meanwhile, it is interesting that in his notorious chapter on "The Jewish
Question" (March, 1877) Dostoevsky the journalist used "zhid" and
derivatives 14 times, "evrei" and derivatives 117 times.  Kovner's attack
forced the great writer to affect a measure of diplomacy.  (There are three
excellent books on Dostoevsky and the Jews: by Leonid Grossman, David
Goldstein, and Felix Ingold.  Grossman and Ingold emphasize Dostoevsky's
"empathy" for the Jews. Goldstein's English translation of his study is
marred by using the rabid pejoratives "yid" or "kike" -- with their
incommensurate post-holocaust burden of hatred -- as automatic equivalents
of 19th-century "zhid" throughout.)

The blundering grasp of the "Jewish Question" by Dostoevsky and his era
resembles America's postwar perceptions of the "Negro Question."  Sinclair
Lewis's novel KINGSBLOOD ROYAL (1947) satirically examines that era, with
all the pejoratives duly assessed.

Soviet-era Russian dictionaries generally tried to touch out "zhid", but
like antisemitism at large, it remains part of society, and so widespread
that no doubt in isolated offhand instances it may be without pejorative
intent.  As a rule, of course, one assumes that it is abusive -- as
apparently it has been applied since the age of Rus'.

Jim Rice

  At 07:03 PM 8/16/98 +0100, you wrote:
>The following is simply taken from standard dictionaries of English and the
Bible and I make no claim to expert knowledge of the subject!
>
>The English term Jew derives via Old French juieu or juiu (12th century)
from Latin Iudaeus, Greek Ioudaios, from Hebrew Yehudhi.
>
>The Slavonic term Zhid (e.g. Czech Zid with a hook over the z) has the same
Hebrew origin, according to my Czech etymological dictionaries, via Old
Italian Giudio, Latin Iudaeus. Etymologically it is the traditional neutral
term for Jews.
>
>The meaning in Hebrew is given as member of the tribe of Judah (Yehudhah) -
Judah being one of the 12 tribes of Israel.
>
>It is not clear according to what little I have read whether the name of
the tribe does for certain come from the name of Judah, son of Jacob and
Leah in Genesis.
>
>The etymology of Judah is uncertain, but its meaning is popularly
associated with yadah, praise.
>
>James Naughton
>
>James = anglicised form of Jacob, through Spanish Jaime. Naughton, cf.
Celtic name Nechtan...
>
>


From WverZhger at aol.com  Sun Aug 16 23:03:26 1998
From: WverZhger at aol.com (William Vernola)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 19:03:26 EDT
Subject: Russian intonation patterns
Message-ID: <SUN.16.AUG.1998.190326.EDT.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Dear Rebecca:  Try the Rosetta stone series.  My school system is using it and
I've seen the Russian variant.  It looks good, but remember I'm thinking more
on the the lines of what's good for high school kids, i.e. there has to be a
fun factor, does it make you feel good, am I playing a game type of mentality.
i'm sure that you could get a desk copy to try out.  I'll dig up the address
and send it to you soon.

William Vernola

PS  At last I've found you again!


From dutkova at U.Arizona.EDU  Sun Aug 16 23:46:45 1998
From: dutkova at U.Arizona.EDU (Ludmila Dutkova)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 16:46:45 -0700
Subject: AATSEEL San Francisco
In-Reply-To: <9649ef42.35d76540@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.16.AUG.1998.164645.0700.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Hi -- I'm posting this message in hope I'll find another female presenter
at the AATSEEL conference who is also looking for a possible roommate. Is
there one out there?

Thanks!!!!
Lida

----------------------
Ludmila Dutkova
dutkova at U.Arizona.EDU


From gthomson at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca  Mon Aug 17 06:39:23 1998
From: gthomson at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (Greg Thomson)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:39:23 +0300
Subject: Russian intonation patterns
In-Reply-To: <35D7277A.330C9D9F@lawrence.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.17.AUG.1998.093923.0300.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

At 12:39 -0600 08-16-1998, Rebecca E. Matveyev wrote:
>Does anyone out there know of any computer program that deals specifically
>with Russian intonation patterns (whether or not they're defined according to
>the traditional "IK" system), and that gives students practicing in listening
>to and reproducing those patterns?

Rebecca, Transparent language (http://www.transparent.com) presents
connected texts (unlike Rossetta Stone). The learner can read a sentence
aloud into the computer, and then, after having done that, play the native
Russian version from a connected text and her own version and compare them.
Intonation is one area where I notice the difference between the non-native
version and native version is often striking. Not to say that the native
version presented is the only possible one, nor that the non-native version
necessarily falls out of the range of possibility just because it happens
to differ from the native version.

But Transparent Language doesn't have a pitch analyzer, which would be nice
in comparing intonation patterns, nor is there any specific effort to
enumerate a fixed set of IKs. I'm too ignorant to argue at this point, but
very skeptical of such an enumerative approach anyway.

Greg

p.s. I've heard that Transparent Language has a fantastic sale on right
now, for a brief time.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
New every morning.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Greg Thomson, Ph.D. Candidate (gthomson at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca)
SIL/Thomson, Westpost P.O. Box 109, FIN 53101,
Lappeenranta, FINLAND
Phone: 7-812-246-35-48 (in St. Petersburg, Russia)


From bursac at fas.harvard.edu  Mon Aug 17 12:10:54 1998
From: bursac at fas.harvard.edu (Ellen Elias-Bursac)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 08:10:54 -0400
Subject: Derivation of the Word "Zhid" in Slavic Languages
In-Reply-To: <199808161659.JAA29872@accessone.com>
Message-ID: <MON.17.AUG.1998.081054.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Interestingly - Croatian uses the word 'zidov' (with a diacritic over the
z) while Serbian uses 'jevrej'. In Serbian, the use of 'zidov' may well be
pejorative, while in Croatian it is completely ordinary usage. There is
another term for Jew which both communities use in a pejorative way:
'cifut' or 'civut' (with a diacritic over the c) which is of Turkish
origin.


From katja.benevol at klub.pasadena.si  Mon Aug 17 13:36:47 1998
From: katja.benevol at klub.pasadena.si (Katja Benevol Gabrijelcic)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:36:47 +0200
Subject: internet radio
In-Reply-To: <199808101803.NAA75758@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.17.AUG.1998.153647.0200.>

Hello!

> I am trying to track down sources of radio
> broadcasts by internet for Slavic
> and East European cultures OTHER THAN RUSSIAN.  I
> am familiar with the
> variety of sources for Russian, but am looking
> for sources for other cultures.

> Slovenian:  TV Slovenia

For Slovenia Radio Ognji ce is also broadcasting on
Internet. The only radio that does it live:
http://www.ognjisce.si/iradio/

HTH, Katja

____________________________
Katja Benevol Gabrijelcic
mailto:katja.benevol at klub.pasadena.si
freelance translator
italian > slovenian > italian
english > slovenian


From jrader at m-w.com  Mon Aug 17 09:52:23 1998
From: jrader at m-w.com (Jim Rader)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:52:23 +0000
Subject: Derivation of the Word "Zhid" in Slavic Languages
Message-ID: <MON.17.AUG.1998.095223.0000.>

On the basis of personal knowledge, I can comment only on the part of
Mr. Bobyk's message concerning <kike>.

The etymology of <kike> cited by Mr. Bobyk appeared in _Webster's
Third New International_, published in 1961, and in several
subsequent Merriam-Webster desk dictionaries, including the 7th, 8th,
and 9th Collegiates (1965, 1973, and 1983).  For the Tenth
Collegiate, published in 1993, I changed the etymology to "origin
unknown."

The "kiki" hypothesis is (as far as I can tell) based on an article
by J.H.A. Lacher published in the March, 1926 issue of
_American Speech_ (v. 1, no. 6, p. 322).  The author, a non-linguist,
claims to have heard "kiki" applied opprobriously to Eastern European
Jews "about forty years ago" by a Jew "of German descent."   I know
of no other evidence for <kiki>.  Even if such a word existed, its
pronunciation would presumably be \kiki\, which if clipped would
yield \kik\, not \kaik\.  I also think that most Americans parse the
final element of Slavic-origin Ashkenazic surnames such as <Barofsky>
as <-ski>, not <-ki>.  In short, this etymology is too weak to be
recommended even with a "probably" or "perhaps."

A number of other etymologies have been proposed for <kike>, none of
them much more plausible than this one.  I believe the origin of the
word has yet to be elucidated.

Jim Rader
Etymology Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.

> Dorohi SEELangci!
>
>
> Lastly, I have a similar question the etymology of the word "kike", which
> I have seen used as a translation for the Russian word "zhid".  Specifically,
> I found the following entry in "Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary"
> which piqued my interest:
>
>   kike n. [prob. alter. of kiki, redupl. of -ki common ending of names of
>   Jews who lived in Slavic countries] (1904):  JEW -- usu. taken to be
>   offensive.
>
> Could anyone comment on the proposed derivation of the word suggested
> above?
>
> Lastly, I am a non-specialist, so if these questions are readily accessible
> in books, or are common knowledge, then please excuse my intruston.
>
> Duzhe Vam dyakuyu zazdalehid',
>
> -- Stepan Bobyk
>


From katja.benevol at klub.pasadena.si  Mon Aug 17 14:03:04 1998
From: katja.benevol at klub.pasadena.si (Katja Benevol Gabrijelcic)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:03:04 +0200
Subject: Derivation of the Word "Zhid" in Slavic Languages
In-Reply-To: <199808161659.JAA29872@accessone.com>
Message-ID: <MON.17.AUG.1998.160304.0200.>

Hello!

Sorry about etimology, the word "zhid" isn't written in my
version of Slovenian etimology dictionary. Will inquire
further. It cannot differ much from the Czech.

>   2) In which languages the word has taken on
> negative, inflammatory
>      connotations.

The second meaning in the Slovenian monolingual dictionary
says: miser, usurer - he became a real usurer; in literature
there is also the meaning "the eternal zhid" - a person that
doesn't find peace in one place.
As far as I know, today the word completely lost the
negative connotation, you only find it in literature.

>   3) In the case that the word has taken negative
> connotations in a given
>      language, I would like to know when this
> occurred and how/why.

IMHO: it probably occured in the second half of 19th
century, when arrived "zhids" with money and bult pubs and
taverns in villages, goldsmith's shops in cities. They were
powerful and - compared to the natives - rich: they could
lend money for high interests etc.

HTH, Katja

____________________________
Katja Benevol Gabrijelcic
mailto:katja.benevol at klub.pasadena.si
freelance translator
italian > slovenian > italian
english > slovenian


From kaiserdwjr at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 17 16:35:52 1998
From: kaiserdwjr at hotmail.com (David Kaiser)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:35:52 CDT
Subject: Russian intonation patterns
Message-ID: <MON.17.AUG.1998.113552.CDT.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Does anyone out there know of any computer program that deals
specifically
>with Russian intonation patterns (whether or not they're defined
according to
>the traditional "IK" system), and that gives students practicing in
listening
>to and reproducing those patterns?
>
>Thanks,
>Rebecca
>
>
>Rebecca Epstein Matveyev
>Russian Department
>Lawrence University
>Appleton, WI 54912
>
The University of Arizona was working on a stress & intonation program
when I was there, I'm not sure how fully developed it is now, but the
demos I saw were very promising. Dr George Gutsche or Phil (a PhD
candidate, I forgot his last name) could tell you about it.

DK


David Kaiser
Please reply to david_kaiser at bigfoot.com

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day,
Teach a man to fish and he will sit in a boat and drink
beer all day....


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From mlaurita at jaguar1.usouthal.edu  Mon Aug 17 17:25:30 1998
From: mlaurita at jaguar1.usouthal.edu (Mary B. Laurita)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:25:30 -0500
Subject: Tretiakov gallery
Message-ID: <MON.17.AUG.1998.122530.0500.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Does anyone know how to go about getting permission from the Tretiakov
gallery to reprint works of art from its collection?  I'd like to include
some in an article I'm working on and have no idea whom to contact there.

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
Please reply off list

Thanks very much

Mary Laurita
Assistant Professor of Russian
Dept. of Foreign Languages and Literatures
University of South Alabama
Mobile, AL  36688
mlaurita at jaguar1.usouthal.edu
(334)460-6291
(344)460-7130 (fax)


From Jerry_Ervin at compuserve.com  Mon Aug 17 17:47:48 1998
From: Jerry_Ervin at compuserve.com (Jerry Ervin)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:47:48 -0400
Subject: AATSEEL '98 Registration, etc.
Message-ID: <MON.17.AUG.1998.134748.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

AATSEEL '98 REGISTRATION BLANK with TRANSPORTATION AND HOUSING INFORMATION

CONFERENCE REGISTRATION 
Preregistration by November 1 is essential for presenters (panel chairs,
panelists) who wish to have their names appear in the printed conference
program.  For others, preregistration must be received by 1 December.  A
$10 handling fee is assessed for canceled registrations.  Registration fees
are as follows:
                        MEMBER 1998     NONMEMBER 1998
  STUDENTS                  $25              $30
  OTHERS
   Preregistration          $60              $75
   On-site registration     $75              $90

HOUSING:  Renaissance Parc 55 Hotel, 55 Cyril Magnin Street (Market at
Fifth) San Francisco, CA 94102; (1-800-468-3571 or 415/392-8000).
     Room rates - $89 single/double.  Suites and upgrades available at
extra charge.  (Rates will be honored a few days before and a few days
after the conference should you wish to take a few extra days for
sightseeing.)

TRANSPORTATION:  Special AATSEEL fares are available through American
Airlines.  Call 1-800-433-1790 and cite Star File #67D8UE.

PLANNING  TO DROP IN ON MLA?  AATSEEL members who have registered for the
AATSEEL convention may register on site for the MLA convention by paying
$50.  Student members of AATSEEL who have registered for the AATSEEL
convention may register for the MLA convention by paying $30.  AATSEEL
members may take advantage of these rates by presenting proof of their
registration at the AATSEEL convention.  We  thank MLA for extending this
professional courtesy.  Also, many thanks to Slavica Publishers for their
assistance in preparing this preliminary program.

Michael Katz, Middlebury College 
President, AATSEEL

David Birnbaum, University of Pittsburgh
AATSEEL '98 Program Chair


AATSEEL '98 ADVANCE REGISTRATION FORM.  THIS FORM MAY BE PHOTOCOPIED.  

Complete this coupon and return it with your check (payable to AATSEEL in
US dollars) before 1 December (1 November for program participants) to: 
AATSEEL, c/o G. Ervin, 1933 N. Fountain Park Dr., Tucson, AZ 85715-5538. 
If you wish a receipt in addition to your canceled check, please enclose a
self-addressed stamped envelope.  (Sorry, we are not able to accept credit
card payments.)  Retain the information about the program, transportation,
housing, etc.  A $10 handling fee is assessed for canceled registrations. 

(Please PRINT all information.) 

First name _____________________  MI (if used) __________

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Mailing address:

_________________________________________________________

_________________________________________________________

_________________________________________________________

Phone/fax/email (in case we have questions about your registration):

_________________________________________________________

Affiliation as you wish it listed on your conference badge:

_________________________________________________________

Please check the number preceding your name on this or any recent AATSEEL
mailing label.  If the number begins with 1998 or higher, your AATSEEL
membership is current.
[___]  I am a current member of AATSEEL.  
[___]  I am unsure of my membership status.  (Please contact us before
completing this form.)
[___]  I wish to pay my 1998 and/or 1999 AATSEEL dues with this conference
registration.

If paying membership, select your membership category:
[___]  Sustaining Members (SUS) - $55
[___]  Joint Members (2 members; 1 set of publications, 1 address) (JOI) -
$45
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[___]  Affiliate (Newsletter only) (NLO) - $20

Preregistration and/or dues payment calculation (circle applicable amount
and fill in below):

                           MEMBER 1998       NONMEMBER 1998
  STUDENTS                    $25                 $30
  OTHERS                      $60                 $75

Preregistration amount:                            ______________

1998 membership amount (if enclosed)               ______________

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TOTAL AMOUNT ENCLOSED                              ______________

Check # ___________, date __________, amount $_____________

Preregistration deadline:  1 December (1 November for program
participants).

Please address all registration questions, and mail preregistration form
and check, to:

Gerard L. Ervin
Executive Director, AATSEEL
1933 N. Fountain Park Dr.
Tucson, AZ 85715-5538 USA

Phone/fax:  520/885-2663
Email:  <76703.2063 at compuserve.com>
AATSEEL home page:
<http://clover.slavic.pitt.edu/~aatseel/>


From Rebecca.E.Matveyev at lawrence.edu  Tue Aug 18 16:18:32 1998
From: Rebecca.E.Matveyev at lawrence.edu (Rebecca E. Matveyev)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:18:32 -0600
Subject: Russian intonation patterns
Message-ID: <TUE.18.AUG.1998.101832.0600.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Hi William,

Thanks for this suggestion!  I'll talk to the computer people here about getting
a desk copy.  I'm sure that they can find out how to get in touch with the
company, so please don't go to any trouble to look for the address and send it
 to
me.

I hope that you and Zhanna are both doing well and that you've had a good
 summer.

Best wishes,
Rebecca

William Vernola wrote:

> Dear Rebecca:  Try the Rosetta stone series.  My school system is using it and
> I've seen the Russian variant.  It looks good, but remember I'm thinking more
> on the the lines of what's good for high school kids, i.e. there has to be a
> fun factor, does it make you feel good, am I playing a game type of mentality.
> i'm sure that you could get a desk copy to try out.  I'll dig up the address
> and send it to you soon.
>
> William Vernola
>
> PS  At last I've found you again!


From Rebecca.E.Matveyev at lawrence.edu  Tue Aug 18 16:30:47 1998
From: Rebecca.E.Matveyev at lawrence.edu (Rebecca E. Matveyev)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:30:47 -0600
Subject: SORRY!
Message-ID: <TUE.18.AUG.1998.103047.0600.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Hi everyone,

I'm sorry for sending that return message to the whole list, instead of
just the one person I meant to send it to.

Rebecca


From rrobin at gwu.edu  Tue Aug 18 05:54:03 1998
From: rrobin at gwu.edu (Richard Robin)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 01:54:03 -0400
Subject: Golosa-2
Message-ID: <TUE.18.AUG.1998.015403.0400.>

I have just spoken to Prentice Hall concerning shipping for portions of
the second edition of Golosa. This may be of concern for those of you
whose fall classes start this in late August.

Rosemary Bradley, the acquisitions editor, told me that the Book 2
Textbook will ship this week. I was told that copies can be expected in
bookstores Monday, August 24.

Tapes for both books are due to ship next week. The Instructor's Manual
for Book 1 is also due out next week.

The Instructor's Manual for Book 2 is still in press. However, those
instructors who need the IM fast can download a temporary copy from the
Golosa website: http://www.gwu.edu/~slavic/golosa/IRM2_download.htm. The
Instructor's Manual is written in Word for Windows 7 and is readable by
Word 6, 7, and Word 97. Please remember that this is the original
manuscript - not the final edited book.

Sincerely,
Richard Robin


From richmond at tiger.cc.oxy.edu  Tue Aug 18 18:16:58 1998
From: richmond at tiger.cc.oxy.edu (Prof. Walter Comins-Richmond)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 11:16:58 -0700
Subject: RGALI
Message-ID: <TUE.18.AUG.1998.111658.0700.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

For all those who use RGALI in Moscow:

The archive closed on July 10 this year instead of the usual August 1.
A few days before closure an announcement was made that the archive would
be closed "for a long time." No one could tell me if this meant three
months, three years, etc. Anyone who plans to use RGALI in the near future
should contact the archive before planning their trip.

Walter Comins-Richmond

**********************************
Walter Comins-Richmond
Assistant Professor
Department of Languages and Literatures
Occidental College
Los Angeles, CA 90041


From darancourlaferriere at ucdavis.edu  Wed Aug 19 00:54:30 1998
From: darancourlaferriere at ucdavis.edu (Daniel Rancour-Laferriere)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:54:30 -0700
Subject: Re derivation of the word Zhid
Message-ID: <TUE.18.AUG.1998.175430.0700.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

18 Aug 98

In response to Jim Rice's comments on the term "Zhid" I would like to
mention one more author who has dealt with Dostoevsky's use of the term,
namely: the late Felix Dreizin, in his book _The Russian Soul and the Jew:
Essays in Literary Ethnocriticism_ (University Press of America, 1990), pp.
61-113.  Dreizin's work is psychologically more nuanced than previous
studies.  Dreizin shows that Dostoevsky often used "Zhid" in the pejorative
sense, especially in his private correspondence.  The translation "Kike" or
"Yid" is therefore justified.  His was a "zoological" anti-Semitism in
private, if a somewhat toned-down anti-Semitism in public.  There were also
interesting projective features to Dostoevsky's ethnic hatred, which fit in
with his general paranoid tendencies.  Dreizin lays this out in painful
detail.  Must reading for anyone interested in Dostoevsky.

Daniel Rancour-Laferriere
University of California, Davis
darancourlaferriere at ucdavis.edu


From jlrice38 at open.org  Wed Aug 19 15:54:32 1998
From: jlrice38 at open.org (James L. Rice)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:54:32 -0700
Subject: Re derivation of the word Zhid
Message-ID: <WED.19.AUG.1998.085432.0700.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Colleagues:                                     August 19. 1998

Dreizin's book, THE RUSSIAN SOUL AND THE JEWS, was reviewed rather
superficially in SEEJ (Fall 1992).  The reviewer declared that _zhid_
"is equivalent to the English 'kike'."  Daniel Rancour-Laferriere seems
to repeat that fundamental semantic error, asserting that since Dostoevsky
often used _zhid_ as a pejorative in letters, the translations 'kike' or
'yid' are "justified."  That is a non-sequitur. The English pejoratives have
been drastically escalated by post-holocaust world ethnic conflict and
hatreds, and so cannot approximate 19th-century _zhid_.  Modern translators
will have to be more resourceful, and they will do will to study the history
of these issues with care before accepting any single-word equivalents.

Meanwhile, the term "zoological" applied to Dostoevsky's antisemitic
expressions in private letters seems to me misleading.  It suggests a
thoughtless knee-jerk reaction, or conditioned response devoid of thought.
In some or many instances that may not be an unfair assessment.  But readers
of Dostoevsky -- if there are some out there -- are best advised to look
carefully at his letters, and his fiction, and the memoir literature about
him, and all the history that bears on the rapidly changing role of the Jews
in Russia in that era: then decide what made the writer tick, and what he
was driving at in references to the Jews, in each case.  Dostoevsky's
thinking was not of the monolithic or knee-jerk variety.  As for the late
Felix Dreizin, my impression is that as a reader of Dostoevsky he was nowhere.

Daniel Rancour-Laferriere's terms applied to Dostoevsky -- "ethnic hatred"
and "paranoid tendencies" -- likewise strike me as misleading. One should be
more cautious about rushing to diagnose Dostoevsky, who is a good deal more
thoughtful and cunning than those labels let on. Except, of course, insofar
as we admit that "ethnic hatred" and "paranoid tendency" are truisms that
apply properly enough to our species at large.

This mounting exchange once more makes me think that email newsletters are
very far down the list of useful media for intellectual discourse.  In
September of 1993, in direct response to that SEEJ review by Harold Shefski
and Dreizin's book, I wrote a few drafts of "A Note on Pejoratives for 'Jew'
in Dostoevsky's Usage," which I have shared with a few Dostoevsky
specialists but haven't finished.  I hereby pledge to say no more on the
subject via SEELANGS, but to try to get it into proper shape for a refereed
journal.

James L. Rice
Comparative Literature Program
University of Oregon
Eugene, OR 97403 USA
jlrice38 at open.org

<I will have a new email address by early September.>

At 05:54 PM 8/18/98 -0700, you wrote:
>18 Aug 98
>
>In response to Jim Rice's comments on the term "Zhid" I would like to
>mention one more author who has dealt with Dostoevsky's use of the term,
>namely: the late Felix Dreizin, in his book _The Russian Soul and the Jew:
>Essays in Literary Ethnocriticism_ (University Press of America, 1990), pp.
>61-113.  Dreizin's work is psychologically more nuanced than previous
>studies.  Dreizin shows that Dostoevsky often used "Zhid" in the pejorative
>sense, especially in his private correspondence.  The translation "Kike" or
>"Yid" is therefore justified.  His was a "zoological" anti-Semitism in
>private, if a somewhat toned-down anti-Semitism in public.  There were also
>interesting projective features to Dostoevsky's ethnic hatred, which fit in
>with his general paranoid tendencies.  Dreizin lays this out in painful
>detail.  Must reading for anyone interested in Dostoevsky.
>
>Daniel Rancour-Laferriere
>University of California, Davis
>darancourlaferriere at ucdavis.edu
>
>


From ggerhart at wolfenet.com  Thu Aug 20 01:10:20 1998
From: ggerhart at wolfenet.com (Genevra Gerhart)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:10:20 -0700
Subject: Re derivation of the word Zhid
Message-ID: <WED.19.AUG.1998.181020.0700.>

To Mr. Rice:
You say: "This mounting exchange once more makes me think that email
newsletters are very far down the list of useful media for intellectual
discourse.  In September of 1993, in direct response to that SEEJ review
by Harold Shefski and Dreizin's book, I wrote a few drafts of "A Note on
Pejoratives for 'Jew' in Dostoevsky's Usage," which I have shared with a
few Dostoevsky specialists but haven't finished.  I hereby pledge to say
no more on the subject via SEELANGS, but to try to get it into proper
shape for a refereed journal."

(1)If e-mail lists are very far down the list of useful media, please to
explain why ours managed to instigate your, I hope, worthy attempt to
prepare material for a refereed journal.
(2) You are right, the material should be written up, and much as you
describe. Don't let intellectual discourse bother you too much.
Regards, gg

--
Genevra Gerhart
http://www.wolfenet.com/~ggerhart/

2134 E. Interlaken  Bl.                 Tel. 206/329-0053
Seattle, WA  98112                      ggerhart at wolfenet.com


From VLK960 at cj.aubg.bg  Thu Aug 20 11:57:43 1998
From: VLK960 at cj.aubg.bg (Uladzimir Katkouski)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:57:43 +200
Subject: derivation of the word Zhid
Message-ID: <THU.20.AUG.1998.135743.200.>

There could be one more explanation for this, which I personally like
very much...

Dastaeuski was born in Belarus. In the language of this country
the word "zhid" is the absolutely neutral term for "jew", not a
derogative one at all, unlike in Russian. Although during 20th
century Belarusan word "zhid" started to get negative connotations
because of the Russian influence, and nowdays the more politically
correct word for it is "habrei"...

In Dastaueski's prose there are lots of indications of his Belarusan
roots. First of all, it's the lastnames of the characters in many
of his books. And, so, I am inclined to believe that "zhid" was just
another reflection of Belarusan influence on Dastaueski's vocabulary.

Best,
U.K.


On 18 Aug 98 at 17:54, Daniel Rancour-Laferriere wrote:

> In response to Jim Rice's comments on the term "Zhid" I would like to
> mention one more author who has dealt with Dostoevsky's use of the term,
> namely: the late Felix Dreizin, in his book _The Russian Soul and the Jew:
> Essays in Literary Ethnocriticism_ (University Press of America, 1990), pp.
> 61-113.  Dreizin's work is psychologically more nuanced than previous
> studies.  Dreizin shows that Dostoevsky often used "Zhid" in the pejorative
> sense, especially in his private correspondence.  The translation "Kike" or
> "Yid" is therefore justified.  His was a "zoological" anti-Semitism in
> private, if a somewhat toned-down anti-Semitism in public.  There were also
> interesting projective features to Dostoevsky's ethnic hatred, which fit in
> with his general paranoid tendencies.  Dreizin lays this out in painful
> detail.  Must reading for anyone interested in Dostoevsky.
>
> Daniel Rancour-Laferriere
> University of California, Davis
> darancourlaferriere at ucdavis.edu
>


From smp at st-andrews.ac.uk  Thu Aug 20 14:04:21 1998
From: smp at st-andrews.ac.uk (stefan pugh)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 15:04:21 +0100
Subject: slav/east eur. medieval studies
Message-ID: <THU.20.AUG.1998.150421.0100.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Dear SEELANGers,

A brief announcement:

The Autumn Slavonic and East European Medieval Studies Group Meeting and
AGM  will take place on October 24, 1998, in the Deneke Common Room, Lady
Margaret Hall, University of Oxford.  Three papers will be given at this
meeting:


        11:00           Dr Natalia Donchenko (Institute of World
Literature, Moscow)
                        "Grigorii Tsamblak i antilatinskaia polemika XIV-XV vv"

        12:00           Dr Dmitrii Bulanin (Institute of Russian
Literature,
Russian Acad. of Sciences, St Petersburg)
                        "Towards Establishing the Text of Early Slavonic
Translations on  the Basis of Russian Manuscripts for the 14th to 17th
Centuries" (to  be delivered in Russian)

        1:00            Lunch in the New Room, Lady Margaret Hall

        2:00            Prof Ralph Cleminson (title to be announced)

        3:00            AGM of SEEMSG



Stefan M Pugh
Secretary and Treasurer, SEEMSG

==========================================
Stefan M Pugh
Reader, Department of Russian
University of St Andrews
St Andrews, Fife KY16 9AJ Scotland
tel: 44-1334-462-953
fax: 44-1334-462-959
e-mail: smp at st-andrews.ac.uk
web: http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk
==========================================


From gadassov at csi.com  Thu Aug 20 20:41:02 1998
From: gadassov at csi.com (Adassovsky)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 21:41:02 +0100
Subject: derivation of the word Zhid
In-Reply-To: <1851E993656@cj.aubg.bg>
Message-ID: <THU.20.AUG.1998.214102.0100.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

 Uladzimir Katkouski wrote :

>Dastaeuski was born in Belarus. In the language of this country
>the word "zhid" is the absolutely neutral term for "jew", not a
>derogative one at all, unlike in Russian.

I'm a  descendant of the 1920 Russian emigration in France, and believe to
have received the cultural heritage of  Tsarist Russia. In our emigrant
circles, the word "zhid" had no pejorative meaning, and was the equivalent
for the French "Juif" or the English "Jew".
The emigrant community was composed of people bearing names finishing as
well with "stein", "berg", as "sky", "ko", "ov", "dze", "chvili", "ian",
etc..., and we all felt belonging to the same community, that is "Russian"
community, I dare to say, although in my own family there are names as
"Solomko" and "Skoropadsky".

>Although during 20th
>century Belarusan word "zhid" started to get negative connotations
>because of the Russian influence, and nowdays the more politically
>correct word for it is "habrei"...

Not because of Russian influence, because of communistic influence
("cosmopolits").

Rulers or new "independant countries", all former nomenclaturists from
Soviet Union eager to keep the power, let people beleive that all their
problems come from "Russian oppression". That's not the truth. Their
problems come from communistic oppression, and there were communists as
well in their own country than in Russia. Russians were oppressed as well
as they were.

Georges.


From WverZhger at aol.com  Thu Aug 20 20:53:06 1998
From: WverZhger at aol.com (William Vernola)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:53:06 EDT
Subject: Distance Learning Instruction
Message-ID: <THU.20.AUG.1998.165306.EDT.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Dear Seelangers, Russophiles, and Tech Heads:

Does anyone ahve any experience or know of anyone who has taught or is
teaching Russian via distance learning technology?  Also, does anyone have any
experience with teaching high school Russian using the so-called block
scheduling (i.e. 90 minute classes X 20 weeks = a 1 year course.)

Any suggestions, help, or networks would be most appreciated.

Sincerely,

William Vernola

PS  Finding another job is not an option at this point!
DuVal HS
9880 Good Luck Rd.
Lanham, MD 20706
(301) 918-8600,  Fax (301) 918-8606


From dutkova at U.Arizona.EDU  Fri Aug 21 16:22:24 1998
From: dutkova at U.Arizona.EDU (Ludmila Dutkova)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:22:24 -0700
Subject: AATSEEL, another search for a roommate.
In-Reply-To: <199808171348_MC2-5650-5FFD@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.AUG.1998.092224.0700.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

A female (NS) presenter at AATSEEL conference in San Francisco is looking
for a roommate to reduce the cost of hotel accommodation. In case you are
interested, please e-mail to the address below.

Thank you!
Lida

----------------------
Ludmila Dutkova
dutkova at U.Arizona.EDU


From Jerry_Ervin at compuserve.com  Fri Aug 21 21:36:14 1998
From: Jerry_Ervin at compuserve.com (Jerry Ervin)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 17:36:14 -0400
Subject: Tracking the AATSEEL '98 postcard
Message-ID: <FRI.21.AUG.1998.173614.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Dear SEELANGERS,

If you're an AATSEEL member in good standing, you should soon be getting an
info postcard about the conference.  If you read SEELANGS regularly you've
already received all of this information, but I'd like to track when the
postcard (which was sent via bulk mail last week) arrives in various
sections of the country.  

I got my own copy today.  If some of you can let me know when you get yours
and where you're located, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,

Jerry

PS:  The preliminary conference program will be mailed and posted on the
AATSEEL Web page in about three weeks.  The conference preregistration form
is already there, and the first two completed preregistrations arrived in
today's post as well.  Please feel free to preregister at any time.

*  *  *  *  *
Gerard L. (Jerry) Ervin
Executive Director, American Ass'n of Teachers of 
Slavic & E European Languages (AATSEEL)
1933 N. Fountain Park Dr., Tucson, AZ 85715 USA
Phone/fax:  520/885-2663
Email:  76703.2063 at compuserve.com
AATSEEL Home Page: <http://clover.slavic.pitt.edu/~aatseel/>
*  *  *  *  *


From darancourlaferriere at ucdavis.edu  Fri Aug 21 23:35:13 1998
From: darancourlaferriere at ucdavis.edu (Daniel Rancour-Laferriere)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:35:13 -0700
Subject: Use of the word "Zhid"
Message-ID: <FRI.21.AUG.1998.163513.0700.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

21 Aug 98

Colleagues,
I am glad to see that Jim Rice will be publishing his study on Dostoevsky's
use of the word "zhid."  In the meantime I feel obliged to object to his
negative evaluation of Felix Dreizin's book, and in particular to his
reluctance to translate Dostoevsky's "zhid" as "yid" or "kike."

Dostoevsky resorted to denial as one way to deal with his anti-Semitism.
In his 1877 essay on "The Jewish Question" in _Diary of a Writer_ he
declares that "in my heart this hatred has never existed."  Yet he then
asks: "Is it because I sometimes call a Jew a 'yid' [nazyvaiu inogda evreia
'zhidom'] that I am accused of 'hatred'?  But, in the first place, I didn't
think this was so offensive, and in the second place, as far as I can
recall, I always used the word 'yid' in reference to a certain idea: 'yid,'
'yidism,' 'the reign of the yids,' and so on.  This was a reference to the
well-known notion, orientation, or characteristic of the times.  One can
dispute this idea, or disagree with it, but one shouldn't be offended by a
word" (Dostoevskii 1972-88, vol. 25, p. 75).  However, Dostoevsky knew
perfectly well that the word was offensive, and he used the word in an
openly contemptuous way in his private correspondence (see Dreizin).  It is
not as if Dostoevsky were operating in a semantic vacuum.  He knew about
the anti-Semitism around him ("well-known notion").  Even here he says that
he doesn't think the term "zhid" is SO offensive ["TAK obidno"] - which is
to say that he admits that it is at least SOMEWHAT offensive.

In my previous posting I mentioned how the anti-Semitism fit in with
Dostoevsky's projective tendencies.  Here is an example, again from _Diary
of a Writer_: the jews are guilty of  "mercilessness" and of "disrespect
for every people and race, and for every human creature who is not a Jew"
(p. 84).  Since this claim is manifestly false (only an anti-Semite would
believe it), then it must originate not in external reality (real Jews),
but in some split-off portion of Dostoevsky's own mind.  It must, in short,
be projected from within from some internal source - and what more likely
source than Dostoevsky's own "mercilessness" and "disrespect" for Jews?
(Dreizin, Rosenthal, Breger, and others have written about projective
mechanisms in Dostoevsky).

Jim Rice objects to my use of the term "paranoid tendencies" to
characterize Dostoevsky.  Yet Rice himself writes of Dostoevsky's "episodes
of paranoid delusion" (_Dostoevsky and the Healing Art_, 1985, p. 81;
quoted by Dreizin, 106).  Clinicians generally agree that sporadic paranoia
is common in the lives of epileptics.  Anti-Semitism is a form of paranoia.
 It is a paranoid delusion to believe that Jews as a class are hostile to
you.  Of course anti-Semitic beliefs became increasingly common in the
second half of the nineteenth century in Russia, and not everyone who held
such a belief was epileptic.  But there are historical contexts which
foster ethnic hatred and make it almost "normal," e.g., anti-Negro
hostility among whites in the antebellum south.  Indeed, as psychologists
Robert Robins and Jerrold Post observe in a recent book: "No one is ever
completely free from the paranoid dynamic.  It is an innate human tendency,
and under stress, otherwise psychologically healthy individuals, groups,
and societies are susceptible to the paranoid appeal."

There is nothing shameful about Dostoevsky's paranoid tendencies when they
grace the pages of his literary art (let us call it the Golyadkin
phenomenon, or let us even agree with Bakhtin's notion of "polyphony").
But real life is something else, and in _Diary of a Writer_ Dostoevsky was
making falsifiable (and false, and hateful) claims about reality.

Daniel Rancour-Laferriere
Professor of Russian
Director, Russian Program
University of California, Davis
darancourlaferriere at ucdavis.edu


From jlrice38 at open.org  Sat Aug 22 01:57:17 1998
From: jlrice38 at open.org (James L. Rice)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 18:57:17 -0700
Subject: Use of the word "Zhid"
Message-ID: <FRI.21.AUG.1998.185717.0700.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Colleagues:                          Dinnertime+, Friday, 21 August 1998

I promised to say no more about Dostoevsky and the Jews on SEELANGS, but I
can allow myself to quote IN FULL the 5-line sentence from my book,
DOSTOEVSKY & THE HEALING ART (1985), from which Dan Rancour-Laferriere has
lifted a snippet -- thoroughly distorting the meaning, and discarding the
main point -- to serve his own hasty ends.  I wrote, 13 years ago:

"The APPARENT behavior change of his last decades, in the direction of
heightened anxiety and suspicion, with episodes of paranoid delusion,
DESERVES TO BE CAREFULLY CONSIDERED not only as A PROBABLE PSYCHIATRIC
COMPLICATION OF HIS EPILEPSY, but against <the> background of quite real
harassment by the state security agencies."  <Op. cit., page 81>

The main point here is that there are various (medical and human) ways of
understanding the sporadically documented outbursts of abusive language from
Dostoevsky, some of which were observed during or after the genuinely
psychotic interludes of 3 to 10 days (with paranoid hallucinations of
unknown content) that ROUTINELY concluded his epileptic seizures; others of
which deployed antisemitic stereotypes (especially in letters), but in many
different ways. Readers who are interested in Dostoevsky's personality,
intellect, and motivation as a writer of journalism, or fiction (where Jews
figure mainly positively, if rarely, and on quite different levels of
abstraction), should look carefully at each context in the letters, to
consider what effects he MAY HAVE wanted to achieve, including -- as I see
it -- not only at times seemingly knee-jerk signals of xenophobia, but also
exasperation at the spectacle of Russia falling face down in the mud, and at
his own political impotence.  Some of us read Dostoevsky as Russia's most
seditiously satirical novelist and journalist, who was determined above all
to "dissect anatomically all Russian attitudes toward authority," and not as
a compulsively xenophobic paranoid.  (Dostoevsky's underlying contempt for
Russia surfaces most clearly, I think, in his last piece of journalism, on
Geok-Tepe.)

So, when I referred (in an elaborately qualified speculation of 1985) to
"episodes of paranoid delusion" deserving "to be carefully considered," I
meant IN ALL THEIR COMPLEXITY, and not at all in order to support the
relatively limited arguments of Dan Rancour-Laferriere, as transmitted
lately on SEELANGS.  It might be added that one line of medical thinking
denies the use of terms for standard clinical psychopathology for the
neurological phenomena of epilepsy.  It may be splitting hairs, but I am not
the one who first proposed this distinction -- for ethical reasons.

I can only repeat that SEELANGS goads us into blurting out scraps of the
whole picture, when it would be far better -- in certain complex issues like
this one -- to get our act together first, and publish with careful
documentation.  Of course I don't pretend that my own squeals here above
are adequately documented, and if I'm out here yapping again I guess my
excuse is that I'm only human.

As for Daniel, I don't mind saying that I've been his friend since 1978, and
can't imagine anyone I'd rather argue with about this, in public or private.
He's a worthy interlocutor.  The only question is (for you folks out there
in cyberspace): has he done his homework?  For the time being, you see,
there's just no telling.

Jim Rice

At 04:35 PM 8/21/98 -0700, you wrote:
>21 Aug 98
>
>Colleagues,
>I am glad to see that Jim Rice will be publishing his study on Dostoevsky's
>use of the word "zhid."  In the meantime I feel obliged to object to his
>negative evaluation of Felix Dreizin's book, and in particular to his
>reluctance to translate Dostoevsky's "zhid" as "yid" or "kike."
>
>Dostoevsky resorted to denial as one way to deal with his anti-Semitism.
>In his 1877 essay on "The Jewish Question" in _Diary of a Writer_ he
>declares that "in my heart this hatred has never existed."  Yet he then
>asks: "Is it because I sometimes call a Jew a 'yid' [nazyvaiu inogda evreia
>'zhidom'] that I am accused of 'hatred'?  But, in the first place, I didn't
>think this was so offensive, and in the second place, as far as I can
>recall, I always used the word 'yid' in reference to a certain idea: 'yid,'
>'yidism,' 'the reign of the yids,' and so on.  This was a reference to the
>well-known notion, orientation, or characteristic of the times.  One can
>dispute this idea, or disagree with it, but one shouldn't be offended by a
>word" (Dostoevskii 1972-88, vol. 25, p. 75).  However, Dostoevsky knew
>perfectly well that the word was offensive, and he used the word in an
>openly contemptuous way in his private correspondence (see Dreizin).  It is
>not as if Dostoevsky were operating in a semantic vacuum.  He knew about
>the anti-Semitism around him ("well-known notion").  Even here he says that
>he doesn't think the term "zhid" is SO offensive ["TAK obidno"] - which is
>to say that he admits that it is at least SOMEWHAT offensive.
>
>In my previous posting I mentioned how the anti-Semitism fit in with
>Dostoevsky's projective tendencies.  Here is an example, again from _Diary
>of a Writer_: the jews are guilty of  "mercilessness" and of "disrespect
>for every people and race, and for every human creature who is not a Jew"
>(p. 84).  Since this claim is manifestly false (only an anti-Semite would
>believe it), then it must originate not in external reality (real Jews),
>but in some split-off portion of Dostoevsky's own mind.  It must, in short,
>be projected from within from some internal source - and what more likely
>source than Dostoevsky's own "mercilessness" and "disrespect" for Jews?
>(Dreizin, Rosenthal, Breger, and others have written about projective
>mechanisms in Dostoevsky).
>
>Jim Rice objects to my use of the term "paranoid tendencies" to
>characterize Dostoevsky.  Yet Rice himself writes of Dostoevsky's "episodes
>of paranoid delusion" (_Dostoevsky and the Healing Art_, 1985, p. 81;
>quoted by Dreizin, 106).  Clinicians generally agree that sporadic paranoia
>is common in the lives of epileptics.  Anti-Semitism is a form of paranoia.
> It is a paranoid delusion to believe that Jews as a class are hostile to
>you.  Of course anti-Semitic beliefs became increasingly common in the
>second half of the nineteenth century in Russia, and not everyone who held
>such a belief was epileptic.  But there are historical contexts which
>foster ethnic hatred and make it almost "normal," e.g., anti-Negro
>hostility among whites in the antebellum south.  Indeed, as psychologists
>Robert Robins and Jerrold Post observe in a recent book: "No one is ever
>completely free from the paranoid dynamic.  It is an innate human tendency,
>and under stress, otherwise psychologically healthy individuals, groups,
>and societies are susceptible to the paranoid appeal."
>
>There is nothing shameful about Dostoevsky's paranoid tendencies when they
>grace the pages of his literary art (let us call it the Golyadkin
>phenomenon, or let us even agree with Bakhtin's notion of "polyphony").
>But real life is something else, and in _Diary of a Writer_ Dostoevsky was
>making falsifiable (and false, and hateful) claims about reality.
>
>Daniel Rancour-Laferriere
>Professor of Russian
>Director, Russian Program
>University of California, Davis
>darancourlaferriere at ucdavis.edu
>
>


From darancourlaferriere at ucdavis.edu  Sat Aug 22 21:38:27 1998
From: darancourlaferriere at ucdavis.edu (Daniel Rancour-Laferriere)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 14:38:27 -0700
Subject: Use of the word "Zhid"
In-Reply-To: <199808220157.SAA25621@opengovt.open.org>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.AUG.1998.143827.0700.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Jim,
It's ok, I think, to have arguments on SEELangs.  I've done my "homework,"
as the citations to Dostoevskii in my last posting indicate, and as the
many more references to Dostoevskii would indicate in my book-in-progress
on Russian ethnicity (about 300 typewritten pages to date).  The book is
tentatively titled "Imagining Russia" (as announced in the AAASS
Newsletter, issue on research in progress).  The first part of the book is
about what Russians think Russia is (focus on Slavophiles, Eurasianists,
current sociological surveys of post-Soviet Russia, etc.).  The second part
of the book is about what Russians (like Dostoevskii) think is not Russia,
or what they think non-Russians are.  This is where xenophobia and
anti-Semitism come in, as many Russian nationalists are just that -
xenophobic and anti-Semitic.  Not all Russians are, of course, but those
who are nationalist tend to follow a pattern of being hostile to what is
"chuzhoi."  There is an extensive literature on this, from the Soviet
semioticians to Western psychoanalysts (I especially recommend Vamik
Volkan's 1988 book titled _The Need to Have Enemies and Allies_ - it's all
about "us" and "them" mentality, i.e., "svoi" vs. "chuzhoi").  Dostoevskii
is of course a complex and interesting individual in his own right.  His
anti-Semitism, including abusive use of the word "zhid" constituted one
pole of his underlying ambivalence toward Jews.  There is a positive pole
as well - as is so often the case with anti-Semites.  This is well-known to
clinicians who study ethnic issues today, and it is just as important to do
"homework" in this area as in the philological field.  I might also mention
that high scores on anti-Semitism scales have been correlated with paranoid
tendencies.  If you wish (or if anyone else out there wishes), I can
provide you with a bibliography of work in this area.

Good arguing with you.

Daniel


At 06:57 PM 8/21/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Colleagues:                          Dinnertime+, Friday, 21 August 1998
>
>I promised to say no more about Dostoevsky and the Jews on SEELANGS, but I
>can allow myself to quote IN FULL the 5-line sentence from my book,
>DOSTOEVSKY & THE HEALING ART (1985), from which Dan Rancour-Laferriere has
>lifted a snippet -- thoroughly distorting the meaning, and discarding the
>main point -- to serve his own hasty ends.  I wrote, 13 years ago:
>
>"The APPARENT behavior change of his last decades, in the direction of
>heightened anxiety and suspicion, with episodes of paranoid delusion,

>DESERVES TO BE CAREFULLY CONSIDERED not only as A PROBABLE PSYCHIATRIC
>COMPLICATION OF HIS EPILEPSY, but against <the> background of quite real
>harassment by the state security agencies."  <Op. cit., page 81>
>
>The main point here is that there are various (medical and human) ways of
>understanding the sporadically documented outbursts of abusive language from
>Dostoevsky, some of which were observed during or after the genuinely
>psychotic interludes of 3 to 10 days (with paranoid hallucinations of
>unknown content) that ROUTINELY concluded his epileptic seizures; others of
>which deployed antisemitic stereotypes (especially in letters), but in many
>different ways. Readers who are interested in Dostoevsky's personality,
>intellect, and motivation as a writer of journalism, or fiction (where Jews
>figure mainly positively, if rarely, and on quite different levels of
>abstraction), should look carefully at each context in the letters, to
>consider what effects he MAY HAVE wanted to achieve, including -- as I see
>it -- not only at times seemingly knee-jerk signals of xenophobia, but also
>exasperation at the spectacle of Russia falling face down in the mud, and at
>his own political impotence.  Some of us read Dostoevsky as Russia's most
>seditiously satirical novelist and journalist, who was determined above all
>to "dissect anatomically all Russian attitudes toward authority," and not as
>a compulsively xenophobic paranoid.  (Dostoevsky's underlying contempt for
>Russia surfaces most clearly, I think, in his last piece of journalism, on
>Geok-Tepe.)
>
>So, when I referred (in an elaborately qualified speculation of 1985) to
>"episodes of paranoid delusion" deserving "to be carefully considered," I
>meant IN ALL THEIR COMPLEXITY, and not at all in order to support the
>relatively limited arguments of Dan Rancour-Laferriere, as transmitted
>lately on SEELANGS.  It might be added that one line of medical thinking
>denies the use of terms for standard clinical psychopathology for the
>neurological phenomena of epilepsy.  It may be splitting hairs, but I am not
>the one who first proposed this distinction -- for ethical reasons.
>
>I can only repeat that SEELANGS goads us into blurting out scraps of the
>whole picture, when it would be far better -- in certain complex issues like
>this one -- to get our act together first, and publish with careful
>documentation.  Of course I don't pretend that my own squeals here above
>are adequately documented, and if I'm out here yapping again I guess my

>excuse is that I'm only human.
>
>As for Daniel, I don't mind saying that I've been his friend since 1978, and
>can't imagine anyone I'd rather argue with about this, in public or private.
>He's a worthy interlocutor.  The only question is (for you folks out there
>in cyberspace): has he done his homework?  For the time being, you see,
>there's just no telling.
>
>Jim Rice
>
>At 04:35 PM 8/21/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>21 Aug 98
>>
>>Colleagues,
>>I am glad to see that Jim Rice will be publishing his study on Dostoevsky's
>>use of the word "zhid."  In the meantime I feel obliged to object to his
>>negative evaluation of Felix Dreizin's book, and in particular to his
>>reluctance to translate Dostoevsky's "zhid" as "yid" or "kike."
>>
>>Dostoevsky resorted to denial as one way to deal with his anti-Semitism.
>>In his 1877 essay on "The Jewish Question" in _Diary of a Writer_ he
>>declares that "in my heart this hatred has never existed."  Yet he then
>>asks: "Is it because I sometimes call a Jew a 'yid' [nazyvaiu inogda evreia
>>'zhidom'] that I am accused of 'hatred'?  But, in the first place, I didn't
>>think this was so offensive, and in the second place, as far as I can
>>recall, I always used the word 'yid' in reference to a certain idea: 'yid,'
>>'yidism,' 'the reign of the yids,' and so on.  This was a reference to the
>>well-known notion, orientation, or characteristic of the times.  One can
>>dispute this idea, or disagree with it, but one shouldn't be offended by a
>>word" (Dostoevskii 1972-88, vol. 25, p. 75).  However, Dostoevsky knew
>>perfectly well that the word was offensive, and he used the word in an
>>openly contemptuous way in his private correspondence (see Dreizin).  It is
>>not as if Dostoevsky were operating in a semantic vacuum.  He knew about
>>the anti-Semitism around him ("well-known notion").  Even here he says that
>>he doesn't think the term "zhid" is SO offensive ["TAK obidno"] - which is
>>to say that he admits that it is at least SOMEWHAT offensive.
>>
>>In my previous posting I mentioned how the anti-Semitism fit in with
>>Dostoevsky's projective tendencies.  Here is an example, again from _Diary
>>of a Writer_: the jews are guilty of  "mercilessness" and of "disrespect
>>for every people and race, and for every human creature who is not a Jew"
>>(p. 84).  Since this claim is manifestly false (only an anti-Semite would
>>believe it), then it must originate not in external reality (real Jews),
>>but in some split-off portion of Dostoevsky's own mind.  It must, in short,
>>be projected from within from some internal source - and what more likely
>>source than Dostoevsky's own "mercilessness" and "disrespect" for Jews?
>>(Dreizin, Rosenthal, Breger, and others have written about projective
>>mechanisms in Dostoevsky).
>>
>>Jim Rice objects to my use of the term "paranoid tendencies" to
>>characterize Dostoevsky.  Yet Rice himself writes of Dostoevsky's "episodes
>>of paranoid delusion" (_Dostoevsky and the Healing Art_, 1985, p. 81;
>>quoted by Dreizin, 106).  Clinicians generally agree that sporadic paranoia
>>is common in the lives of epileptics.  Anti-Semitism is a form of paranoia.

>> It is a paranoid delusion to believe that Jews as a class are hostile to
>>you.  Of course anti-Semitic beliefs became increasingly common in the
>>second half of the nineteenth century in Russia, and not everyone who held
>>such a belief was epileptic.  But there are historical contexts which
>>foster ethnic hatred and make it almost "normal," e.g., anti-Negro
>>hostility among whites in the antebellum south.  Indeed, as psychologists
>>Robert Robins and Jerrold Post observe in a recent book: "No one is ever
>>completely free from the paranoid dynamic.  It is an innate human tendency,
>>and under stress, otherwise psychologically healthy individuals, groups,
>>and societies are susceptible to the paranoid appeal."
>>
>>There is nothing shameful about Dostoevsky's paranoid tendencies when they
>>grace the pages of his literary art (let us call it the Golyadkin
>>phenomenon, or let us even agree with Bakhtin's notion of "polyphony").
>>But real life is something else, and in _Diary of a Writer_ Dostoevsky was
>>making falsifiable (and false, and hateful) claims about reality.
>>
>>Daniel Rancour-Laferriere
>>Professor of Russian
>>Director, Russian Program
>>University of California, Davis
>>darancourlaferriere at ucdavis.edu
>>
>>
>


From jlrice38 at open.org  Sun Aug 23 18:59:20 1998
From: jlrice38 at open.org (James L. Rice)
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 11:59:20 -0700
Subject: Use of the word "Zhid"
Message-ID: <SUN.23.AUG.1998.115920.0700.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Daniel,                                 August 23, 1998

I agree (by now I would have to agree) that it's ok to argue on SEELANGS.
But it's also good to stop and ask whether it's worthwhile, and who will
benefit.  As for your citations to Dostoevsky: I didn't notice any great
number of them.  My sense of this question is that it's complex and still in
need of a thorough study, on the order of a solid doctoral dissertation.  In
that sense of "homework" (careful consideration of every context), you seem
more inclined to put forth a biased hypothesis.  In the near future somebody
may want to do a complete inventory of passages with _zhid_, _evrei_ and
derivatives, and examine the whole array of contexts carefully and
analytically.  I recently learned that Vladimir Zakharov in Petrozavodsk has
a website which will provide something like a complete works of FMD (texts
displayed in old orthography), with a concordance.  For the time being it
is, I understand, far from complete.  It may be of use in time. But it would
be best to approach the problem of Dostoevsky's usage through DOSTOEVSKY,
and not through an index of bare vocables, nor with the preconception that
"yid" and "kike" are equivalents for 19th-century "zhid".  Otherwise your
position tends to perpetuate the view exemplified by a young Russian Jewish
friend of mine (young in 1981, when he was my main guide to Moscow street
life, and still a good friend now), who then knew only that Dostoevsky was a
"strashnyi antisemit", but had never read him.

Vsego dobrogo,  Jim Rice

At 02:38 PM 8/22/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Jim,
>It's ok, I think, to have arguments on SEELangs.  I've done my "homework,"
>as the citations to Dostoevskii in my last posting indicate, and as the
>many more references to Dostoevskii would indicate in my book-in-progress
>on Russian ethnicity (about 300 typewritten pages to date).  The book is
>tentatively titled "Imagining Russia" (as announced in the AAASS
>Newsletter, issue on research in progress).  The first part of the book is
>about what Russians think Russia is (focus on Slavophiles, Eurasianists,
>current sociological surveys of post-Soviet Russia, etc.).  The second part
>of the book is about what Russians (like Dostoevskii) think is not Russia,
>or what they think non-Russians are.  This is where xenophobia and
>anti-Semitism come in, as many Russian nationalists are just that -
>xenophobic and anti-Semitic.  Not all Russians are, of course, but those
>who are nationalist tend to follow a pattern of being hostile to what is
>"chuzhoi."  There is an extensive literature on this, from the Soviet
>semioticians to Western psychoanalysts (I especially recommend Vamik
>Volkan's 1988 book titled _The Need to Have Enemies and Allies_ - it's all
>about "us" and "them" mentality, i.e., "svoi" vs. "chuzhoi").  Dostoevskii
>is of course a complex and interesting individual in his own right.  His
>anti-Semitism, including abusive use of the word "zhid" constituted one
>pole of his underlying ambivalence toward Jews.  There is a positive pole
>as well - as is so often the case with anti-Semites.  This is well-known to
>clinicians who study ethnic issues today, and it is just as important to do
>"homework" in this area as in the philological field.  I might also mention
>that high scores on anti-Semitism scales have been correlated with paranoid
>tendencies.  If you wish (or if anyone else out there wishes), I can
>provide you with a bibliography of work in this area.
>
>Good arguing with you.
>
>Daniel
>
>
>At 06:57 PM 8/21/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>Colleagues:                          Dinnertime+, Friday, 21 August 1998
>>
>>I promised to say no more about Dostoevsky and the Jews on SEELANGS, but I
>>can allow myself to quote IN FULL the 5-line sentence from my book,
>>DOSTOEVSKY & THE HEALING ART (1985), from which Dan Rancour-Laferriere has
>>lifted a snippet -- thoroughly distorting the meaning, and discarding the
>>main point -- to serve his own hasty ends.  I wrote, 13 years ago:
>>
>>"The APPARENT behavior change of his last decades, in the direction of
>>heightened anxiety and suspicion, with episodes of paranoid delusion,
>
>>DESERVES TO BE CAREFULLY CONSIDERED not only as A PROBABLE PSYCHIATRIC
>>COMPLICATION OF HIS EPILEPSY, but against <the> background of quite real
>>harassment by the state security agencies."  <Op. cit., page 81>
>>
>>The main point here is that there are various (medical and human) ways of
>>understanding the sporadically documented outbursts of abusive language from
>>Dostoevsky, some of which were observed during or after the genuinely
>>psychotic interludes of 3 to 10 days (with paranoid hallucinations of
>>unknown content) that ROUTINELY concluded his epileptic seizures; others of
>>which deployed antisemitic stereotypes (especially in letters), but in many
>>different ways. Readers who are interested in Dostoevsky's personality,
>>intellect, and motivation as a writer of journalism, or fiction (where Jews
>>figure mainly positively, if rarely, and on quite different levels of
>>abstraction), should look carefully at each context in the letters, to
>>consider what effects he MAY HAVE wanted to achieve, including -- as I see
>>it -- not only at times seemingly knee-jerk signals of xenophobia, but also
>>exasperation at the spectacle of Russia falling face down in the mud, and at
>>his own political impotence.  Some of us read Dostoevsky as Russia's most
>>seditiously satirical novelist and journalist, who was determined above all
>>to "dissect anatomically all Russian attitudes toward authority," and not as
>>a compulsively xenophobic paranoid.  (Dostoevsky's underlying contempt for
>>Russia surfaces most clearly, I think, in his last piece of journalism, on
>>Geok-Tepe.)
>>
>>So, when I referred (in an elaborately qualified speculation of 1985) to
>>"episodes of paranoid delusion" deserving "to be carefully considered," I
>>meant IN ALL THEIR COMPLEXITY, and not at all in order to support the
>>relatively limited arguments of Dan Rancour-Laferriere, as transmitted
>>lately on SEELANGS.  It might be added that one line of medical thinking
>>denies the use of terms for standard clinical psychopathology for the
>>neurological phenomena of epilepsy.  It may be splitting hairs, but I am not
>>the one who first proposed this distinction -- for ethical reasons.
>>
>>I can only repeat that SEELANGS goads us into blurting out scraps of the
>>whole picture, when it would be far better -- in certain complex issues like
>>this one -- to get our act together first, and publish with careful
>>documentation.  Of course I don't pretend that my own squeals here above
>>are adequately documented, and if I'm out here yapping again I guess my
>
>>excuse is that I'm only human.
>>
>>As for Daniel, I don't mind saying that I've been his friend since 1978, and
>>can't imagine anyone I'd rather argue with about this, in public or private.
>>He's a worthy interlocutor.  The only question is (for you folks out there
>>in cyberspace): has he done his homework?  For the time being, you see,
>>there's just no telling.
>>
>>Jim Rice
>>
>>At 04:35 PM 8/21/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>>21 Aug 98
>>>
>>>Colleagues,
>>>I am glad to see that Jim Rice will be publishing his study on Dostoevsky's
>>>use of the word "zhid."  In the meantime I feel obliged to object to his
>>>negative evaluation of Felix Dreizin's book, and in particular to his
>>>reluctance to translate Dostoevsky's "zhid" as "yid" or "kike."
>>>
>>>Dostoevsky resorted to denial as one way to deal with his anti-Semitism.
>>>In his 1877 essay on "The Jewish Question" in _Diary of a Writer_ he
>>>declares that "in my heart this hatred has never existed."  Yet he then
>>>asks: "Is it because I sometimes call a Jew a 'yid' [nazyvaiu inogda evreia
>>>'zhidom'] that I am accused of 'hatred'?  But, in the first place, I didn't
>>>think this was so offensive, and in the second place, as far as I can
>>>recall, I always used the word 'yid' in reference to a certain idea: 'yid,'
>>>'yidism,' 'the reign of the yids,' and so on.  This was a reference to the
>>>well-known notion, orientation, or characteristic of the times.  One can
>>>dispute this idea, or disagree with it, but one shouldn't be offended by a
>>>word" (Dostoevskii 1972-88, vol. 25, p. 75).  However, Dostoevsky knew
>>>perfectly well that the word was offensive, and he used the word in an
>>>openly contemptuous way in his private correspondence (see Dreizin).  It is
>>>not as if Dostoevsky were operating in a semantic vacuum.  He knew about
>>>the anti-Semitism around him ("well-known notion").  Even here he says that
>>>he doesn't think the term "zhid" is SO offensive ["TAK obidno"] - which is
>>>to say that he admits that it is at least SOMEWHAT offensive.
>>>
>>>In my previous posting I mentioned how the anti-Semitism fit in with
>>>Dostoevsky's projective tendencies.  Here is an example, again from _Diary
>>>of a Writer_: the jews are guilty of  "mercilessness" and of "disrespect
>>>for every people and race, and for every human creature who is not a Jew"
>>>(p. 84).  Since this claim is manifestly false (only an anti-Semite would
>>>believe it), then it must originate not in external reality (real Jews),
>>>but in some split-off portion of Dostoevsky's own mind.  It must, in short,
>>>be projected from within from some internal source - and what more likely
>>>source than Dostoevsky's own "mercilessness" and "disrespect" for Jews?
>>>(Dreizin, Rosenthal, Breger, and others have written about projective
>>>mechanisms in Dostoevsky).
>>>
>>>Jim Rice objects to my use of the term "paranoid tendencies" to
>>>characterize Dostoevsky.  Yet Rice himself writes of Dostoevsky's "episodes
>>>of paranoid delusion" (_Dostoevsky and the Healing Art_, 1985, p. 81;
>>>quoted by Dreizin, 106).  Clinicians generally agree that sporadic paranoia
>>>is common in the lives of epileptics.  Anti-Semitism is a form of paranoia.
>
>>> It is a paranoid delusion to believe that Jews as a class are hostile to
>>>you.  Of course anti-Semitic beliefs became increasingly common in the
>>>second half of the nineteenth century in Russia, and not everyone who held
>>>such a belief was epileptic.  But there are historical contexts which
>>>foster ethnic hatred and make it almost "normal," e.g., anti-Negro
>>>hostility among whites in the antebellum south.  Indeed, as psychologists
>>>Robert Robins and Jerrold Post observe in a recent book: "No one is ever
>>>completely free from the paranoid dynamic.  It is an innate human tendency,
>>>and under stress, otherwise psychologically healthy individuals, groups,
>>>and societies are susceptible to the paranoid appeal."
>>>
>>>There is nothing shameful about Dostoevsky's paranoid tendencies when they
>>>grace the pages of his literary art (let us call it the Golyadkin
>>>phenomenon, or let us even agree with Bakhtin's notion of "polyphony").
>>>But real life is something else, and in _Diary of a Writer_ Dostoevsky was
>>>making falsifiable (and false, and hateful) claims about reality.
>>>
>>>Daniel Rancour-Laferriere
>>>Professor of Russian
>>>Director, Russian Program
>>>University of California, Davis
>>>darancourlaferriere at ucdavis.edu
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>


From C.J.Ayers-Jursa at let.rug.nl  Mon Aug 24 07:27:33 1998
From: C.J.Ayers-Jursa at let.rug.nl (C.J. Ayers)
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 09:27:33 +0200
Subject: Tracking the AATSEEL '98 postcard
In-Reply-To: <199808211736_MC2-56F2-CDC6@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <MON.24.AUG.1998.092733.0200.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

I received my postcard in the Netherlands on Friday the 21st.

Dr. Carolyn Jursa Ayers
Department of Comparative Literature (ALW)
Faculty of Letters
University of Groningen
Postbus 716
9700 AS Groningen The Netherlands
phone 31-50-363-6809
fax 31-50-363-5821
e-mail <c.j.ayers-jursa at let.rug.nl>


From mmbst35+ at pitt.edu  Mon Aug 24 12:46:49 1998
From: mmbst35+ at pitt.edu (Michael M Brewer)
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:46:49 -0400
Subject: Recording audio on the web
Message-ID: <MON.24.AUG.1998.084649.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Seelangers,

I recently discovered the wealth of songs available on the internet.  I
recorded several tapes of songs from a number of sites.  Each time I used
the RealAudio format, as it is the fastest, though it doesn't download
completely onto you computer.  I have heard that the quality is also not
great, but it sounded good to me.  Anyway, after listening to the tapes
for a while, large sections started to just disappear.  Before long the
whole tape would be completely blank.  I didn't use great tapes, but this
has never been a problem before with standard recording.  Does anyone have
any suggestions?  Are any other the other formats better than RealAudio?
(such as AU, WAV, or whatever else there is out there)  Is this problem
due to the poor quality of the recording?  Has anyone else had this
problem?  Any insights into recording material off the internet would be
appreciated!

mb

Michael Brewer                  e-mail  mmbst35+ at pitt.edu
Department of Slavic Languages  fax     1-412-624-9714
1417 Cathedral of Learning      voice   1-412-661-4722
Pittsburgh, PA 15260


From chtodel at humanitas.ucsb.edu  Mon Aug 24 18:57:47 1998
From: chtodel at humanitas.ucsb.edu (Donald Barton Johnson)
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:57:47 -0700
Subject: Query re Russian Orthodox church servises
Message-ID: <MON.24.AUG.1998.115747.0700.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Could someone tell me if  Russian Orthodox rites involve kissing the
cross? With thanks in advance.
        Please reply off-list.

D. Barton Johnson
Department of Germanic, Slavic and Semitic Studies
Phelps Hall
University of California at Santa Barbara
Santa Barbara, CA  93106
Phone and Fax: (805) 687-1825
Home Phone: (805) 682-4618


From natalia.pylypiuk at ualberta.ca  Mon Aug 24 20:06:09 1998
From: natalia.pylypiuk at ualberta.ca (Natalia Pylypiuk)
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:06:09 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Russian colleagues?
Message-ID: <MON.24.AUG.1998.130609.0700.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Shanovni kolehy-rusysty!

Please reply directly to:
 Darlene Smith <SmithDarln at AOL.COM>

************************************************************************

>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Date:         Mon, 24 Aug 1998 07:45:33 EDT
>Reply-To: Less Commonly Taught Language teachers <lctl-t at tc.umn.edu>
>Sender: Less Commonly Taught Language teachers <lctl-t at tc.umn.edu>
>From: Darlene Smith <SmithDarln at AOL.COM>
>Subject: Russian colleagues?
>To: Multiple recipients of list LCTL-T <lctl-t at tc.umn.edu>
>
>Hi!  Is this an active listserve?
>I joined a few days ago and have not received any messages yet.
>
>I am piloting a Russian language program in my local high school.  To my
>knowledge, it will be the only one offered in a public high school within
>about 80 miles.
>Any fellow high school Russian teachers out there?
>
>Darlene Smith in PA

************************************************************************

****************************************************

Natalia Pylypiuk, Associate Professor,
Department of Modern Languages & Cultural Studies:
                                  Germanic, Romance and Slavic
200 Arts Building,  University of Alberta
Edmonton, AB T6G 2E6
Canada

****************************************************

office phone & voice mail:     (403)  492 - 3498
departmental fax:                      (403)  492 - 9106

e-mail address:                       natalia.pylypiuk at ualberta.ca

www.ualberta.ca/~uklanlit/Homepage.html

****************************************************


From WverZhger at aol.com  Tue Aug 25 02:48:38 1998
From: WverZhger at aol.com (William Vernola)
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:48:38 EDT
Subject: Distance Learning Instruction
Message-ID: <MON.24.AUG.1998.224838.EDT.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Dear Mr. Comins- Richmond:  I fully concur with your opinion, but the decision
as to whether or not Russian "flew" or not at my high school was not really
mine.  And I would like to mention the word "High school" here with great
emphasis, because I am sure that the rules of who teaches what, when and where
are different for us high school teachers than they are for the educators in
institutions of higher learning.

First and foremost I am not a Russian language teacher by first choice.  I am
a social studies teacher, also certified in Russian.  I possess a BA in
Russian Area Studies, a BS in Sec. Ed. (Soc. Studies) and I'm working on my MA
in Russian.  I have over 100 semester hours of Russian, other Slavic language
and linguistic courses, plus over two years study/work in Russia.  Two years
ago I worked in a Ukrainian high school in Kharkov to teach civics education.
This program was offered through USIA and ACTR.  I was selected primarily as a
social studies teacher.

Although a highly qualified, motivated and trained Russian language teacher, I
have never really been in the right place, at the right time, with the right
connections, and the right amount of "IN COUNTRY" time to be able to get a
Russian language teaching job - be it as a graduate TA or in any other
educational establishment.  And of course everyone in the field is highly
aware of the fact that there just aren't the number of students of Russian
that there used to be in the pool.

The distance learning environment is a quick fix that many schools across the
country are starting to embrace.  Of course it has it's pros as well as its
cons.  Last year, a colleague of mine (who in fact is a certified social
studies teacher - as a matter of fact the vast majority of teachers in the
state of MD who have full time Russian programs are social studies teachers)
taught 1 student through distance learning and this girl won a medal at the
Mid-Atlantic regional Olimpiada of spoken Russian sponsored by ACTR.

Additionally distance learning allows schools to add courses or keep language
programs going which normally would be cut, or even worse in the opinion of
some of my colleagues in the field such as Richard Brecht, the levels get
compressed into  one class.  So to a high school administrator, who can't
justify a few classes of Russian IIs, IIs, and IVs, combines 8 Russian IIs, 5
IIIs and 3-4 Russian IVs.  And that looks good on paper, but if you ask
anybody it spells disaster.  What level do you think gets taught in that kind
of situation?  Level II of course.  That's if all of your IIIs and IVs stay
motivated and happy. NOT!
So if distance learning helps alleviate that situation, and gives me a chance
to finally teach something and start a program in a school system I was hired
to accomplish 5 years ago, then I'm all for it.  (Incidentally when was the
last time you or anyone from your department stepped into a high school
classroom to help, share, impart knowledge, or just in general keep people
interested in the Russian language?  I read Dan Davidson's message every DAMN!
year in  the members report about "maintaining and strengthening ties with
area schools and supporting new programs in the Russian language."  But I
think his message falls on a lot of deaf ears in the field.

But I do agree with you in one large way.  It is a very poor substitute for 1)
a live teacher; 2) a beginning program; and 3) the first level of a language.
But it is a start and it is better than having the administration cancel your
program every year and slide the kids into German.

If you really feel compelled to sound off I can send you the names of the
administrators responsible for this decision, and you can let them have an
earful.  But since they hardly listened to me until I basically threw down the
gauntlet, I doubt whether or not they will listen to any one in higher ed.
You guys have your problems and we have ours.

And on a final note, higher education concerning itself with what goes on in
high schools may apply the old infantry anxiom from my army service - 1) you
can lead;  2) you can follow;
or 3) you can get the h*** out of the way.

Thank you for your concerns and have a nice day


From Yurij.Lotoshko at tversu.ru  Tue Aug 25 11:52:41 1998
From: Yurij.Lotoshko at tversu.ru (Yurij.Lotoshko)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:52:41 +0400
Subject: internet explorer and russian
Message-ID: <TUE.25.AUG.1998.155241.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

----------
> Nr: Serge Rogosin <SRogosin at aol.com>
> Jnls: SEELANGS at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> Rel`: internet explorer and russian
> D`r`: 2 `bcsqr` 1998 c. 4:38
>
> Is it possible to use Internet Explorer to search for Russian-language
> documents on the Web?  I'm sure there's a way, but I haven't been able to
get
> I.E. to recognize Russian in any coding. (Or more accurately, I can type
> Russian in the search box, but this never produces any hits.) Any advice
would
> be much appreciated.
>
try to use
http://www.rumbler.ru

> Serge
> __________________
> Serge Rogosin
> 93-49 222 Street
> Queens Village, NY 11428
> tel. & fax (718)479-2881


From feldstei at indiana.edu  Tue Aug 25 14:10:05 1998
From: feldstei at indiana.edu (feldstei)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:10:05 -0500
Subject: internet explorer and russian
In-Reply-To: <199808251155.GAA24941@indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.AUG.1998.091005.0500.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

A good selection of Russian search engines is at:

www.deol.ru


From sjogreek at mindspring.com  Wed Aug 26 04:15:57 1998
From: sjogreek at mindspring.com (Ernest Sjogren)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 00:15:57 -0400
Subject: internet explorer and russian
In-Reply-To: <199808251144.PAA12882@tversu.ru>
Message-ID: <WED.26.AUG.1998.001557.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Serge,

Entry of Cyrillic characters is possible w/ the newer releases of IE, at
least.  I have version 4.72 (running on Windows 95) which I downloaded
about ten days ago.  This release has the Win, KOI-8, and ISO codepages
available from the menu bar:  view | fonts.  Or at least mine does, but
that may be due to earlier "internationalization" done on this machine.

For instance, I just went to Rambler, as was suggested, applied Win1251 via
view | fonts | Cyrillic Alphabet (Windows), switched my keyboard codepage
to Win1251,  did a search on "krapivin" (in Cyrillic), and got 205 hits.

With older versions of IE, I've not been so successful.  Those that change
fonts by going to view | options and pushing the "fonts" button I've gotten
to work only once -- and that may be wishful memory, it was so long ago.
However, I've used these older versions only on Windows NT 4.0; they may
work okay on Windows 95.

Myself, I generally use Netscape, although this new version of IE seems
pretty good for Cyrillic.  If you do decide to try this new IE, I'd
recommend downloading only the browser and installing it in some directory
other than the one your current installation is in, in case you have
trouble and have to uninstall it.  IE seems to muck about with other areas
of Windows besides the browser function; the bare browser hasn't seemed to
hurt anything, yet, though.

You may want to try Netscape, instead of IE, which I've been using happily
for almost a year (my version is Netscape Navigator 4.05; my younger son
just installed it, drat him -- wiped out all our bookmarks and didn't back
them up; previously we were using Netscape Navigator 4.0, as I recall).

This assumes you are able to enter Cyrillic characters from your keyboard
at all, which it sounds like you can.

By the way, one thing to try is to copy a string of text from the search
page into your clipboard and thence into the search-text field (hold down
the left mouse button, drag over the text string so that it is in reverse
video, hit CTRL-C, double click with the left mouse button on the search
search-text field so that the current text if any is in reverse video, and
hit CTRL-V, at which point your copied text should appear).  Do your search
and see what happens.

This is all confusing, I know -- it still confuses me, and I've been
mucking with it for months.  Drop me a line if you can't get things going,
and I'll try to help to the best of my abilities and as best my memory will
allow (some of the necessary setup was done so long ago I've forgotten
exactly what I did).  Good luck.  It's cool when it works.

-- Ernie Sjogren

At 03:52 PM 8/25/98 +0400, you wrote:
>----------
>> Nr: Serge Rogosin <SRogosin at aol.com>
>> Jnls: SEELANGS at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>> Rel`: internet explorer and russian
>> D`r`: 2 `bcsqr` 1998 c. 4:38
>>
>> Is it possible to use Internet Explorer to search for Russian-language
>> documents on the Web?  I'm sure there's a way, but I haven't been able to
>get
>> I.E. to recognize Russian in any coding. (Or more accurately, I can type
>> Russian in the search box, but this never produces any hits.) Any advice
>would
>> be much appreciated.
>>
>try to use
>http://www.rumbler.ru
>
>> Serge
>> __________________
>> Serge Rogosin
>> 93-49 222 Street
>> Queens Village, NY 11428
>> tel. & fax (718)479-2881
>


From aimee.m.roebuck1 at jsc.nasa.gov  Wed Aug 26 14:01:47 1998
From: aimee.m.roebuck1 at jsc.nasa.gov (ROEBUCK, AIMEE M. (JSC-AH))
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:01:47 -0500
Subject: Russian speakers in Auburn, Alabama
Message-ID: <WED.26.AUG.1998.090147.0500.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Do any list members know Russian speakers in Auburn, Alabama (or Auburn
University)?  I have a student who would like to have conversation practice
this fall to keep up and develop her skills.

Please reply to me off list.

Thank you,
Aimee Roebuck
aroebuck at ems.jsc.nasa.gov


From Mirjana_Dedaic at SEUR.VOA.GOV  Wed Aug 26 19:04:06 1998
From: Mirjana_Dedaic at SEUR.VOA.GOV (Mima Dedaic)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:04:06 -0400
Subject: Help needed for a panel on computer vocabulary
Message-ID: <WED.26.AUG.1998.150406.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Dear colleagues:

Due to emergency, a participant for the panel :How to say WWW in Slavic* had to
 cancel her coming to AAASS Boca Raton conference.

If you know anyone who would be able and glad to fill in and give a talk on the
 computer vocabulary in any Slavic language other than Croatian and Serbian,
 please send me a note to:

DedaicM at georgetown.edu

I will appreciate any suggestion.

Thank youvery much for your help!

Mima Nelson Dedaic


From klr8p at virginia.edu  Wed Aug 26 20:21:50 1998
From: klr8p at virginia.edu (Karen Ryan)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:21:50 -0500
Subject: Galich poem
Message-ID: <WED.26.AUG.1998.152150.0500.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Does anyone know of or have a recording of Galich performing his song-poem
"Stalin" (also called "Poema o Staline")?  I'd be grateful for help finding
a copy of it.  Please reply to me directly.

Karen Ryan


Department of Slavic Languages and Literatures
109 Cabell Hall
University of Virginia
Charlottesville, VA 22903

(804) 924-6688/3548


From roman at admin.ut.ee  Wed Aug 26 19:50:49 1998
From: roman at admin.ut.ee (R_L)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:50:49 +0300
Subject: Galich poem
In-Reply-To: <199808261919.WAA19165@kadri.ut.ee>
Message-ID: <WED.26.AUG.1998.225049.0300.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

At 15:21 26/08/98 -0500, you wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
-----------------------
>Sender:       "SEELangs: Slavic & E. European Languages & literatures list"
>              <SEELANGS at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>Poster:       Karen Ryan <klr8p at virginia.edu>
>Subject:      Galich poem
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>
>Does anyone know of or have a recording of Galich performing his song-poem
>"Stalin" (also called "Poema o Staline")?  I'd be grateful for help finding
>a copy of it.  Please reply to me directly.
The poem called actually "Poema o begunt na dal'nie distancii"/"Poema o
Staline" (http://www.ksp.krsk.ru/Galich/part140.htm).
I do have this recording, but Tartu is too far from Virginia.
There is real-audio recording of Galich's album (A Song About Paternal
House) on the net
(http://www.music.ru/Audio/r/GalichAlexander/PaternalHouse/). Yet another
real-audio archive - http://www.ksp.krsk.ru/Galich/Audio/index.htm (incl.
poem "Kaddish").
Sincerely,


R_L


From robblee at virginia.edu  Thu Aug 27 01:49:47 1998
From: robblee at virginia.edu (K E Robblee)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:49:47 -0400
Subject: Tracking the AATSEEL '98 postcard
In-Reply-To: <199808211736_MC2-56F2-CDC6@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <WED.26.AUG.1998.214947.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Dear Jerry,

I would like to have my AATSEEL correspondence sent to my new address:

Slavic Department
University of Virginia
109 Cabell Hall
Charlottesville, VA 22903.

Please let me know if I need to send you anything by US post.

Thanks,
Karen

>Dear SEELANGERS,
>
>If you're an AATSEEL member in good standing, you should soon be getting an
>info postcard about the conference.  If you read SEELANGS regularly you've
>already received all of this information, but I'd like to track when the
>postcard (which was sent via bulk mail last week) arrives in various
>sections of the country.
>
>I got my own copy today.  If some of you can let me know when you get yours
>and where you're located, I'd appreciate it.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Jerry
>
>PS:  The preliminary conference program will be mailed and posted on the
>AATSEEL Web page in about three weeks.  The conference preregistration form
>is already there, and the first two completed preregistrations arrived in
>today's post as well.  Please feel free to preregister at any time.
>
>*  *  *  *  *
>Gerard L. (Jerry) Ervin
>Executive Director, American Ass'n of Teachers of
>Slavic & E European Languages (AATSEEL)
>1933 N. Fountain Park Dr., Tucson, AZ 85715 USA
>Phone/fax:  520/885-2663
>Email:  76703.2063 at compuserve.com
>AATSEEL Home Page: <http://clover.slavic.pitt.edu/~aatseel/>
>*  *  *  *  *


From Yurij.Lotoshko at tversu.ru  Thu Aug 27 11:34:27 1998
From: Yurij.Lotoshko at tversu.ru (Yurij.Lotoshko)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 15:34:27 +0400
Subject: NON-STATE UPPER VOLGA INSTITUTE
Message-ID: <THU.27.AUG.1998.153427.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

NON-STATE UPPER VOLGA INSTITUTE

The initiative  to  establish  an  Institute belonged to a group,
guided by a  Distinguished  Member  of  the  Russian  Academy  of
Science,  Dr.Piotr  Nikolaev,  and  was  composed  of  Dr.  Irena
Aksenova and Dr.Taisia Dolgova who started up  the  Institute  in
August  1993.  The  project  was  supervised by the International
Educational Center,  Tver Committee on Municipal  Property,  Tver
State   Technical   University   Administration  and  Educational
Institution, Polinom.

Upper Volga began with such part-time courses as <Social Worker>,
designed  for  employees of orphanages,  assisted care facilities
etc.  of the federal and local authorities. Additionally, courses
in  management  for  personnel  of  Tver  Committee  on Municipal
Property were offered.  Joint American-Russian academic  programs
began  with  <Small  Business  in  the USA>,  designed for people
contemplating starting up a business,  as  well  as  the  already
established  businessman.  A  popular  course,  <TOEFL>  (Test of
English as a Foreign Language),  provided a course in the English
language   for  foreign  students  and  post  graduate  students,
preparing to take the international <TOEFL> test.

Many outstanding and well-known doctors and professors held their
courses  at  the  Upper  Volga Institute.  By contacting numerous
international  organizations  and  committees,  funds  were  made
available   to  the  Upper  Volga  Institute  to  invite  foreign
professors that made the academic programs even more popular  and
sought after.

Through the CDC (Citizen Democracy Corporation Washington-Moscow)
Upper Volga Institute established contacts with businessmen  from
the  USA  who  held  seminars  on  such  topics  as  <Real-Estate
Operations in America> (given by  Mr.  Greg  Vine,  realtor  from
Venice,  Florida,  USA); <Small Business Organization in the USA>
(given by Mr.  William Webb,  practical businessman from  Venice,
Florida,  USA); <How to Get Foreign Investments & Joint Ventures>
(given by Prof.  Henry Saunders of the University of Maine,  USA;
<Bank  and  Banking  in  the  USA>  (given  by  Mr.  Tom  Conner,
bank-owner from Indiana,  USA) as well as other  guest  speakers,
prominent in their respective fields.

After three  years  of educational activities,  the Institute was
issued  a  State  License  (signed  by  the  Minister  of  Higher
Education  of  Russian Federation,  Mr.  Kinelev) authorizing the
Institute to act as a Non-State Institution of  Higher  Learning,
with  the  right to confer a Bachelor's Degree.  Four departments
were formed: Economics, Psychology, Linguistics & Sociology.

The aim  of  the  Upper  Volga  Institute  is  to  integrate  the
institute into an international educational structure.  This will
enable it to award an  internationally  accepted  certificate  of
completion   (Diploma),   start   reciprocal  academic  programs;
exchange specialists & experts and teaching methods & techniques.

Upper Volga Institute is favorably located on the highway between
Moscow  and  St.Petersburg  -  and  is  within  easy reach of all
leading scientific-educational institutions in these cities.

Goals of Upper Volga Institute.

The goal of the project is to achieve an active participation  of
the  Institute in the stable development of the Russian education
concept, by means of creating an international scientific center,
designed   to   train  specialists  in  various  fields  such  as
economics,  sociology,  psychology and many others. The Institute
is  seeking  to  resurrect  the  traditions  of classical Russian
education,  combined, however, with the newest world achievements
in this sphere.

It is  hoped  that  the Institute will become a meeting place for
many scientists from all over the world,  who will come to  share
their  ideas,  thoughts and discoveries.  This will enable Tver's
scientists to acquire new contacts in the academic world.

This project will also demonstrate the common  interest  of  both
state and non-state educational institutions in the problems that
exist nowadays in all higher education systems.


Marketing Research.

According to  the  data  published  in  <Guide Book for College &
University Applicants>, 1997 edited by A.Obolensky, there are, in
Tver,  7  registered State Universitites,  as well as 5 non-state
Universities & Institutes.  Of these,  only 3 are situated in the
central city area,  convenient to transportation, libraries, etc.
And the  Upper  Volga  Institute  is  fortunate  to  be  in  this
exclusive group.

Even under  these  circumstances,  many students,  well qualified
both  academically  as  well  as  psychologically  could  not  be
accommodated by the State Universities & Institutes which brought
about the need for alternative  institutions  such  as  the  UVI.
However,  students  are not accepted at the Upper Volga Institute
indiscriminately,  but,  on the contrary, require examination and
acceptance  by  our certified <Board of Psychological Testing> to
determine  their  suitability  for  placement.  As  the  UVI   is
sanctioned as a non-profit,  or not for-profit,  institute,  fees
have been established at a minimum US $ 1,000  for  one  year  at
full-time  departments  and US $ 500 dollars part-time per annum.
Those  necessary  fees  have  been  established  after  extensive
research  of  average family incomes in Tver,  as well as charges
for equivalent institutions.

An advantage of the UVI is its staff,  the way it is being  built
and  the  atmosphere  it  produces.  We  are proud to say that we
invite academicians  and  professors  from  the  Universities  of
Moscow,  St.  Petersburg  &  Tver,  as  well as from abroad - the
University of Main,  Eckerd College,  Florida, USA; University of
Hertfordshire,  GB.  Leading  scientists of Russia - academicians
Dr. Piotr Nikolayev, Dr. Igor Besstuzhev-Lada, Professor Vladimir
Burmistrov  are on the staff at Upper Volga.  Young lecturers and
instructors work side by side with the distinguished scholars who
share their priceless experience with them.

The psychologists  of  Upper  Volga  Institute  have  developed a
number of tests that are taken  by  the  candidates  applying  to
teach  at  Upper Volga.  Needless to say that the results of this
screening encourages a friendly and warm  atmosphere  &  contacts
between  the  teachers  and  professors;  which  helps  to  avoid
conflicts  and,   as   a   consequence,   results   in   positive
students-teacher relationship.

A great  number  of the already existing curricula (being applied
both in Russia and abroad (USA &  GB))  have  been  analyzed  and
thoroughly  studied  by  the  Academic Programs Committee,  which
enabled  our  specialists  to  use  the  data  and  compile   new
curricula.  The  fact  that they combine the best features of the
existing material up-dated to the situation in Russia,  and  that
they  meet  international  educational requirements,  allow us to
consider the curricula universal,  perspective and  unique  in  a
way.

In May  1997  there was an Agreement of Intentions signed between
the Upper Volga Institute,  and the University  of  Herdfordshire
(the  Department  of  Psychology).  In the very near future it is
anticipated  that  a  number  of  joint  academic   programs   in
Psychology  will  be  worked  out  and,  consequently,  a  joint,
Russian-English Certificate of Completion (Diploma) be awarded.

The facts above mentioned prove the well-timed appearance of  the
Upper   Volga   Institute   as   a   non-state  institution.  The
opinion-polls  data  and  analytical  research  show   that   the
Institute  organically  fits  the  educational infra-structure of
Tver,  and definitely has prospects in terms of development.  Our
aim  is  to train specialists and help the community,  the region
and the country as a whole.

The Design  Project

For the past three years, the administration of the Institute has
followed  the compulsory steps needed to obtain a license,  which
was finally  issued  on  December  6,  1996.  According  to  this
document,  the  <Upper  Volga Institute> is authorized to provide
educational services in the sphere  of  higher  and  professional
education.  The Rector,  Dr.  Irena Aksenova, applied to the Tver
Committee of  the  Municipal  Property,  in  order  to  secure  a
permanent  facility  to  house  and expand its present operation.
After some time it was decided to lease the  4th  floor  of  a  5
storey  building  located in the center of Tver (Mailing address:
170000  Tver  Trehsvyatskaya  street,  #  6).  The  location   is
favorable from the point of view of transportation as well as its
proximity to the central libraries.

The right for long-term lease (15 years) is fixed in Order #  119
of  February  27,  1997 issued by the Tver Committee on municipal
property;  Lease Contract # 993 of March 26,  1997 and Additional
Agreement  to  the  Contract  dated  May  14,  1997 issued by the
mentioned above Committee.  According to these  documents,  Upper
Volga  Institute has rented the 4th floor of the building located
at 170000 Tver Trehsvyatskaya street,  # 6.  It comprises a total
of  551,9  square  meters.  The  rented  space  was at one time a
workshop, and has to be reconstructed and changed to class-rooms,
lecture-rooms and offices by means of new wall erections.

The architect   company   <Design   Center>   (Russian  Union  of
Designers) has worked out the  reconstruction  project.  It  will
include  construction  works,  smoothing  and finishing and there
will be one rector's office;  teaching  staff  office;  manager's
office; 2 offices and several classrooms.

Project's Value

Rent costs  2,258,313  roubles + VAT monthly,  and is paid by the
Institute in accordance with  the  Agreement.  According  to  the
project  documentation,  the  work  will cost 441,704,029 roubles
(project  dated  May  18,  1997)  which  is  approximately  US  $
82,000.00.

In order  to  equip  a  library,  computer  class-room and to buy
necessary furniture it is estimated that the total  overall  cost
will be approximately t US $ 20,000.

By distributing this booklet we are seeking to find sponsors, who
may be willing to support and help our new emerging  Institution.
We would be happy to consider ANY of your offers,  should it be a
donation of computers, books for our library or financial aid.


If you  require  any  further  information  about us or our city,
please,  feel free to contact us at:

phone/fax: in Tver, Russia 7 0822 314 314

e-mail: upper215 at tstu.tver.ru


From frosset at wheatonma.edu  Fri Aug 28 01:09:48 1998
From: frosset at wheatonma.edu (Francoise Rosset)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 21:09:48 -0400
Subject: call for papers II - N.E.MLA, April 1999
Message-ID: <THU.27.AUG.1998.210948.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Dear SEELanzhane:
        This is a call for papers for the panel below, as it appears/
will appear on the NEMLA web site. I am posting it once more because
I have been out of the country.

The conference will be held April 16-17, 1999, in Pittsburgh.

To check the NEMLA web-site, go to:
        http://www.anna-maria.edu/nemla



>
>Russian Poetry Panel.
>   Chair: Nancy Condee, University of Pittsburgh
>   A panel on Russian poetry from the medieval to the modern period.
>Of particular interest are papers discussing intertextual relationships
>between Russian poets, or between Russian poets and poets of other
>European cultures, but all papers on poetry will be considered. Please
>submit abstracts
>      by e-mail to:    frosset at wheatonma.edu
>      by US mail to:   Prof. F. Rosset
>                       Department of Russian
>                       Wheaton College, Box 701
>                       Norton, MA 02766
>Please submit abstracts after August 15 -- the deadline for abstracts and
>equipment requests is September 15.
>
>
>

Francoise Rosset                          phone:  (508) 286-3696
Department of Russian                     e-mail: frosset at wheatonma.edu
Wheaton College
Norton, Massachusetts 02766


From Groznyj at aol.com  Fri Aug 28 05:08:04 1998
From: Groznyj at aol.com (John F. Sheehan)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 01:08:04 EDT
Subject: Tracking the AATSEEL '98 postcard
Message-ID: <FRI.28.AUG.1998.010804.EDT.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Jerry,

I received my postcard in Florida today, Thursday, 8/27.

John Sheehan


From khayuti at mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA  Fri Aug 28 12:08:33 1998
From: khayuti at mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA (Mila Khayutin)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 08:08:33 -0400
Subject: translation software!
Message-ID: <FRI.28.AUG.1998.080833.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Dear SEELANGS,

Could someone recommend a reliable software that could do a decent enough
job on translating English into Russian before idiomatic editing is to be
done.

You could reply to khayuti at mcmaster.ca

Thank you all,

Mila Khayutin
McMaster University Library
Hamilton, Ontario


From lat5 at columbia.edu  Fri Aug 28 13:10:04 1998
From: lat5 at columbia.edu (Ludmilla A Trigos)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:10:04 -0400
Subject: Tracking the AATSEEL '98 postcard
In-Reply-To: <5fe987a4.35e63b34@aol.com>>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.AUG.1998.091004.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

I received my postcard yesterday (8/27) in New York City.



Ludmilla A. Trigos
Columbia University


From Jerry_Ervin at compuserve.com  Fri Aug 28 18:40:54 1998
From: Jerry_Ervin at compuserve.com (Jerry Ervin)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:40:54 -0400
Subject: Tracking the AATSEEL '98 postcard
Message-ID: <FRI.28.AUG.1998.144054.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

SEELANGSers,

Thanks very much for all your input on this.  It appears the postcard 
arrived in most areas around the country between 24-27 August.  Reported
receipt dates from at least one individual in the following states:

24 August
        WI, PA, KS

25 August
        TX

26 August
        WA, CO, PA

27 August
        MA, FL, NY

Of course, one's *local* post office can decide when it wants to deliver
bulk mail (they often wait for a light day), but at least we know that the
cards moved out of here (AZ) at a decent rate.

Regards, and thanks again to all who responded,

Jerry

*  *  *  *  *
Gerard L. (Jerry) Ervin
Executive Director, American Ass'n of Teachers of 
Slavic & E European Languages (AATSEEL)
1933 N. Fountain Park Dr., Tucson, AZ 85715 USA
Phone/fax:  520/885-2663
Email:  76703.2063 at compuserve.com
AATSEEL Home Page: <http://clover.slavic.pitt.edu/~aatseel/>
*  *  *  *  *


From sforres1 at swarthmore.edu  Fri Aug 28 18:53:36 1998
From: sforres1 at swarthmore.edu (Sibelan Forrester)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:53:36 -0400
Subject: Requesting assistance to find available expert
Message-ID: <FRI.28.AUG.1998.145336.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Dorogie SEELANZHane,

I am posting this message with the permission of its author, who is looking
for experts in teaching Russian & agreed that the best thing was to post a
call at the very source thereof.

Please reply to this message to Ralph Todhunter at  <rmtod at onsitegroup.com>
, NOT to SEELANGS.

Sibelan Forrester
Swarthmore College

Mr. Forrester,      I am looking for one to three individuals who are
expert as teachers of the Russian language to English speaking people.
This for aspecial project (not volunteer and well paid) opportunity
involving the authoring of a brand new course designed for incorporation
into computer-based and on-line web-based training media. The persons need
not have any expertise in multimedia authoring.       If you could direct
me to any such individuals and/or certain likely key resource pools for
this kind of person, it would be greatly appreciated.     Please respond to
my email address at work as follows:   rmtod at onsitegroup.com/ .  You may
also call if you wish by phone toll free to (888)838-7483.       Again,
thank you for any assistance you can provide in this matter.

 Here is some more information about the project for those potentially
interested in participating:  We envision maybe one PhD and the rest to be
graduate students, assistant professors, etc.  The primary qualification is
simply the expertise. It could be a small team of, say, 3 people working
full time, or it could be a team twice or possibly even 3 times as large
working parttime. It could also be a combination of both, ie. some part
time and some full time.  The main controlling factor on the above will be
availability of persons most qualified to do the job.  We are expecting
that it will be most feasible to have a larger team of say 5 to 8 who will
all be part time, as those most qualified will almost certainly already be
employed full time in their existing jobs.     We also
believe there would be a production advantage if the team of experts
already live in geographical proximity to one another so as to operate
optimumly and easily as a production team.  Selection of team members would
best be accomplished by one familiar with all the different candidates,
with an eye towards putting together the best combination of individuals to
accomplish the task.     We envision one of the team members to be
designated as the team leader for project management and coordination
purposes, who would serve as the primary liaison between his/her team and
ourselves during the course of the project.  As the entire group of
personnel on the project will be at 3 or 4 different areas of the country,
in-person meetings of the entire project team, ie. your subject matter
experts and ourselves, would occur occasionally but the bulk of such
interaction would be by video conferencing from desktop computer to desktop
computer, with cameras and audio and email, which we would most likely
provide if the team members do not have all the parts of that equipment.
As I indicated in my memo yesterday,  the project essentially involves the
authoring and production of a computer-based (CD Rom) and web-based on-line
course to teach beginning through intermediate level Russian language
skills (including 30,000 words vocabulary) to English speaking people.  The
team of subject matter experts will produce the raw content (in word
processing form) which we will then work with to produce the standalone
multimedia courseware product.  This product will contain text, graphics,
video and audio combined as the medium of presentation and student
interaction. When complete, thousands of people will be making use of this
product to learn to speak the Russian language.     We estimate that the
project should commence in 2-3 months and take approximately a year and a
half to complete.  So we are working to get all teams in place as soon as
possible.  The client will be paying us at certain pre-determined project
milestones, so we will likewise prefer to pay all team members
pre-determined sums at those same milestones.  Payment amounts have not yet
been determined as we are still doing all the costing for the overall
project, but it will be reasonable and satisfactory.     I hope that
answers some of your initial questions.  If you or anyone else reading this
believe that you have a potential team, would personally like to
participate in the project, or can further direct me in this matter, or if
you have further questions, please contact me at rmtod at onsitegroup.com  or
call me toll-free at (888)838-7483.  If you call and I am out, please leave
a message and I will get back to you as soon as I can.  If you semd me
email, please send it to both my addresses, rmtod at home.com and
rmtod at onsitegroup.com/.  We are looking forward to hearing any and all
interested parties!   Best Regards, Ralph Todhunter


From nsm3 at columbia.edu  Sat Aug 29 20:33:13 1998
From: nsm3 at columbia.edu (nadejda sergeyevna michoustina)
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 21:33:13 +0100
Subject: Platonov. Call for Papers.
Message-ID: <SAT.29.AUG.1998.213313.0100.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Attention all SEELangers:
        This is a preliminary call for abstracts and proposals concerning
any aspect of the work of Andrei Platonov.
        All interested in participating please fax or email your
suggestions and a 350-500 words abstract to:

Nadia Michoustina
Slavic Department
Columbia Univeristy
fax. 212.854.5009
nsm3 at columbia.edu.

        The conference will be held in NYC in March 1999.
        Preliminary Deadline for submissions: September 30, 1998


From natalia.pylypiuk at ualberta.ca  Sun Aug 30 20:38:21 1998
From: natalia.pylypiuk at ualberta.ca (Natalia Pylypiuk)
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 13:38:21 -0700
Subject: Fwd:  High School Russian classes
In-Reply-To: <199808271125.PAA11864@tversu.ru>
Message-ID: <SUN.30.AUG.1998.133821.0700.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date:         Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:18:07 EDT
Reply-To: Less Commonly Taught Language teachers <lctl-t at tc.umn.edu>
Sender: Less Commonly Taught Language teachers <lctl-t at tc.umn.edu>
From: Cathie Currin <HCurrins at AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: High School Russian classes

I am a volunteer with AFS Intercultural.  We have a Visiting Teacher Program
-- and bring teachers from Russia to the US to visit schools here. They live
with a host family (as an exchange student would), and attend school every
day, working with a mentor teacher who plans their program, allowing them to
make presentations about their country, teach Russian, take a class or two --
etc.  Their hope is to improve their English and better understand American
culture so that they can be better teachers of English when they return.

Our program has been funded by the Freedom Support Act so continued funding is
not always a certainty -- but if it's something you might be interested, send
me your address and I'll send you some information.

There's no cost to the host school -- we ask only that the school provide a
lunch for the teacher.  We also have to be sure that there is AFS involvement
somewhere nearby so that support for the teacher can be assured.

Cathie in NY


From beyer at jaguar.middlebury.edu  Mon Aug 31 13:24:37 1998
From: beyer at jaguar.middlebury.edu (Beyer, Tom)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 09:24:37 -0400
Subject: Help needed for a panel on computer vocabulary
Message-ID: <MON.31.AUG.1998.092437.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

If Russian is still an open option I could try to fill that gap
let me know by return e-mail
Prof. Thomas Beyer
Middlebury College
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mima Dedaic [SMTP:Mirjana_Dedaic at SEUR.VOA.GOV]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 3:04 PM
> To:   SEELANGS at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> Subject:      Help needed for a panel on computer vocabulary
>
> Dear colleagues:
>
> Due to emergency, a participant for the panel :How to say WWW in Slavic*
> had to
>  cancel her coming to AAASS Boca Raton conference.
>
> If you know anyone who would be able and glad to fill in and give a talk
> on the
>  computer vocabulary in any Slavic language other than Croatian and
> Serbian,
>  please send me a note to:
>
> DedaicM at georgetown.edu
>
> I will appreciate any suggestion.
>
> Thank youvery much for your help!
>
> Mima Nelson Dedaic


From Levitt at Hermes.usc.edu  Mon Aug 31 23:16:47 1998
From: Levitt at Hermes.usc.edu (Marcus C. Levitt)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 15:16:47 PST
Subject: Archival Guide
Message-ID: <MON.31.AUG.1998.151647.PST.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

In case it hasn't been posted already!  A great new guide to work in
Russian archives has come out:

Olga E. Glagoleva, "Working With Russian Archival Documents: A Guide
to Modern Handwriting, Document Forms, Language Patterns, and Other
Related Topics."  The Stalin-Era Research and Archives Project,
Working Paper no. 2, University of Toronto, 1998.  Paper, 109 pp.
$15.00.  ISBN 0-9697723-2-7

Available from The Centre for Russian and E. Eur. Studies, The U. of
Toronto, Robarts Library, Suite 14341, 130 St. George Street,
Toronto, Ontario M5S 1A5 Canada
e-mail: <stalin at chass.utoronto.ca>
tel (416) 978-8192
fax             -3817


(submitted by M. Levitt, USC)


From beyer at jaguar.middlebury.edu  Mon Aug 31 13:24:37 1998
From: beyer at jaguar.middlebury.edu (Beyer, Tom)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 09:24:37 -0400
Subject: Help needed for a panel on computer vocabulary
Message-ID: <MON.31.AUG.1998.092437.0400.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

If Russian is still an open option I could try to fill that gap
let me know by return e-mail
Prof. Thomas Beyer
Middlebury College
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mima Dedaic [SMTP:Mirjana_Dedaic at SEUR.VOA.GOV]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 3:04 PM
> To:   SEELANGS at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> Subject:      Help needed for a panel on computer vocabulary
>
> Dear colleagues:
>
> Due to emergency, a participant for the panel :How to say WWW in Slavic*
> had to
>  cancel her coming to AAASS Boca Raton conference.
>
> If you know anyone who would be able and glad to fill in and give a talk
> on the
>  computer vocabulary in any Slavic language other than Croatian and
> Serbian,
>  please send me a note to:
>
> DedaicM at georgetown.edu
>
> I will appreciate any suggestion.
>
> Thank youvery much for your help!
>
> Mima Nelson Dedaic

--XAA04956.904569987/kryptonite.sge.net--


From Levitt at Hermes.usc.edu  Mon Aug 31 23:16:47 1998
From: Levitt at Hermes.usc.edu (Marcus C. Levitt)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 15:16:47 PST
Subject: Archival Guide
Message-ID: <MON.31.AUG.1998.151647.PST.SEELANGS@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

In case it hasn't been posted already!  A great new guide to work in
Russian archives has come out:

Olga E. Glagoleva, "Working With Russian Archival Documents: A Guide
to Modern Handwriting, Document Forms, Language Patterns, and Other
Related Topics."  The Stalin-Era Research and Archives Project,
Working Paper no. 2, University of Toronto, 1998.  Paper, 109 pp.
$15.00.  ISBN 0-9697723-2-7

Available from The Centre for Russian and E. Eur. Studies, The U. of
Toronto, Robarts Library, Suite 14341, 130 St. George Street,
Toronto, Ontario M5S 1A5 Canada
e-mail: <stalin at chass.utoronto.ca>
tel (416) 978-8192
fax             -3817


(submitted by M. Levitt, USC)

--IAA29527.904602306/kryptonite.sge.net--