FW: Translation Query

[Katz, Michael]

I am forwarding this to the list with permission of Vladimir Tsurikov at
Holy Trinity Monastery, Jordanville, NY.

Michael Katz

> ----------
> From:         V. Tsurikov
> Sent:         Friday, January 11, 2002 9:43 AM
> To:   Katz, Michael
> Subject:      Re: Translation Query
>
> That seems to be a very good answer.
> I was trying to get more info on Nikitski sorok, but his answer seems to
> very detailed.
> As far as No. 1 - "Ivana postnogo" is not really John's Fast, since what
> is
> really being defined here is the feast day of St. John. "Postnogo" is
> meant
> to indicate which feast of St. John is being referred to. The feast of the
> beheading of St. John is one that is remembered with strict fast, the
> strictest there is actually. But there are also several other feasts, when
> the the Church remembers St. John, which are not strict fast days (in some
> instances not fast days at all) for example: Obretenie glavy Ioanna
> Predtechi, Rozhdestvo Ioanna Predtechi.
> Predtecha should be translated as: Forerunner.
> So basically "Postnyi" is not referring to John, but to the actual feast,
> to
> distinguish it from the other feasts of St. John. When you say to someone:
> Ioanna Postnogo they know you mean the 29 of August.
>
> > FYI
> >
> >> ----------
> >> From:     Jack Kollmann
> >> Reply To:     Slavic & East European Languages and Literature list
> >> Sent:     Friday, January 11, 2002 3:10 AM
> >> To:     SEELANGS at LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU
> >> Subject:     Re: Translation Query
> >>
> >> Dear Nora,
> >>
> >>          (1)  Re: "Ivana postnogo" -- "John's Fast" is literally
> correct
> >> as
> >> a translation, but the full meaning, as your text explains, is the Day
> (29
> >> August) of the Fast of the Beheading of John the Forerunner/Precursor
> >> (Baptist); with or without parentheses or brackets or footnote, you
> might
> >> include some of this more full info; one could, e.g., say "John's Day,"
> or
> >> "the Fast Day of [St.] John [the Baptist]," with footnote:  "the Fast
> Day
> >> of the Beheading of John the Baptist (29 August)," plus you have to
> decide
> >> how to render "Predtecha":  Precursor/Forerunner/Baptist.  All of this
> >> depends on how picky and detailed you want your translation and its
> >> supporting apparatus to be.
> >>
> >>          (2)  Re: "Nikitskii sorok" -- you're on the right track with
> your
> >> "conglomeration of Moscow churches."  The Stoglav Council in 1551
> decreed
> >> (Chap. 6) that seven church districts should be established in Moscow,
> >> that
> >> a "cathedral(sobor)" should be designated in each of the seven
> districts,
> >> and that a priest supervisor (popovksii starosta) should be appointed
> to
> >> each sobor to oversee and supervise the qualifications and practices of
> >> parish priests.  Seven districts were in fact delineated at the time of
> >> the
> >> council, each containing approx. 40 churches, and thus the nomenclature
> >> arose of calling each district a "forty," one of which was Nikitskii
> (the
> >> others were Kremlevskii, Kitaigorodskii, Zamoskvoretskii,
> Prechistenskii,
> >> Sretenskii, and Ivanovskii).
> >>          The expression "sorok sorokov" apparently arose from cross
> >> procession days, when priests and parishioners (from approx. 40
> churches)
> >> processed to their district (sorok) "cathedral(sobor)."  As I
> understand
> >> it, the expression did not originally mean that there were 40 times 40
> >> (=1,600) "churches" in Moscow as of, say, the 1550s, but that cross
> >> processions and parish priests proceeded in each district (sorok) from
> the
> >> 40 (sorok) churches to the district sobor.  In 1594, by which time
> Moscow
> >> had grown and an 8th district sobor was designated, each sobor had
> >> approx.100 district priests assigned to it.  I haven't researched it,
> but
> >> it is my impression that the nomenclature of "sorok" districts fell
> into
> >> disuse at about this time, while the expression "sorok sorokov" came to
> >> mean 40 X 40 churches.  What is the date of your text that refers to
> the
> >> Nikitskii sorok?
> >>
> >>          Numbers of individual church buildings are frequently hard to
> >> determine:  many churches had more than one consecrated altar, each
> altar
> >> might have a priest assigned to it, and statistics frequently refer to
> the
> >> number of consecrated altars (not separate church buildings).  For
> >> example,
> >> a 17 February 1551 decree naming priest supervisors for Moscow states
> that
> >> there were 644 churches in Moscow, but if one adds district totals in
> the
> >> same decree, the total is only 300.  My guess:  there were about 300
> >> church
> >> buildings at the time (which is close to 7 districts times 40
> churches),
> >> but a total of 644 consecrated altars.  Figures for 1917:  848 church
> >> buildings (khramy) in Moscow, and 1,620 consecrated altars.  To
> >> repeat:  most estimates are inflated in the sense that consecrated
> altars
> >> are frequently being counted (not "churches" in the sense of individual
> >> buildings).   One practice that the prelates of the Stoglav Council
> tried
> >> to reduce was "altar inflation":  secondary altars would be consecrated
> in
> >> a church, a priest would wrangle an appointment to one of them, and
> then
> >> the priest with some justification could beg the tsar or the prelates
> for
> >> financial support since the priest had few if any parishioners on whom
> to
> >> rely.  In the 17th century the Kremlin Archangel Michael Cathedral had
> 12
> >> consecrated altars, the Annunciation Cathedral had 9, and the main
> church
> >> of the Chudov Monastery had 7 altars.  Each altar (indeed, each altar
> >> cloth:  antimins/antimension) could be counted as a "church (tserkov')"
> in
> >> the sense that a daily liturgy could be performed at it.
> >>
> >>          By the way, what is the source (and its date) that you're
> >> translating, concerning what convent, and for what years?
> >>
> >> The above strays beyond your questions, but I hope some of it helps.
> >>
> >> Jack Kollmann
> >> Stanford University
> >>
> >>
> >> At 11:30 AM 1/10/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >>> Dear SEELANGERS,
> >>> I am working on a translation concerning the history of a convent and
> >> have
> >>> stumbled over some of the religious terminology.  Perhaps one of you
> will
> >> be
> >>> able to enlighten me.
> >>> 1.  Ivana postnogo:  it is explained in the text that this is the
> >>> prostonarodnyj abbreviation for "prazdnik Useknovenija glavy sv.
> Ioanna
> >>> Predtechi."  Would "John's Fast" convey what a Russian hears in "Ivana
> >>> postnogo"?  I'm not sure how to deal with postnyj as an adjective
> >> modifying
> >>> Ivan.
> >>> 2.  Nikitskij sorok:  This sounds from context like a conglomeration
> of
> >>> Moscow churches, but I'm not sure.  The sentence reads:  Sobornuiu
> >> tserkov
> >>> Ioanna Predtechi pereveli v razriad prikhodskikh s zachisleniem ee v
> >>> Nikitskij sorok...  While I have found many Russian-lanaguage internet
> >>> mentions of this Nikitskij sorok, they haven't been enough to clarify
> >>> exactly what it is.
> >>>
> >>> Any help would be appreciated.
> >>> Nora Favorov
> >>> Reply on list or to norafavorov at earthlink.net
> >>>
> >>>
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