Wolves and Sheep

[Lauren Leighton]

-----Original Message-----
From: Slavic & East European Languages and Literature list
[mailto:SEELANGS at LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU]On Behalf Of Timothy D. Sergay
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 12:52 PM
To: SEELANGS at LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Wolves and Sheep

It's mostly been used in business. The notion that if two parties do
business in a rational manner, both will profit. The assumption is that
that's the way business works. In the early 90s it was used to try to
demonstrate to new Russian businessmen that when they try to outsmart each
other, they both lose. But I'm darned if I remember how it was converted
into Russian.




Dear Robert and All,

       "Win-win" is also inherently paradoxical: it's just as "impossible"
as volki syty/ovtsy tsely. It's a metaphor from organized sports, in which
there are two sides that by definition cannot both "win," applied to
"zero-sum" situations (as in "predator/prey relations") where two persons or
parties are pursuing (or seem to be pursuing) directly conflicting
interests. If you resolve those interests artfully enough, you can represent
the outcome as, surprisingly, win-win. I doubt that the Russian expression
is invariably used ironically, and I doubt that win-win cannot be used
ironically. But the test of any translation solution is always how
convincing and readable it is in the context at hand, which we don't have.
We're simply brainstorming potentially useful solutions.

Best,

Tim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Chandler" <kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM>
To: <SEELANGS at LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU>
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Proverbs


> Dear Timothy and others
>
> > I think "I volky syty, i ovtsy tsely" is very
> > close to a very current idiomatic observation in US English "It's a
win-win
> > [situation]"
> I doubt it.  Surely the Russian proverb is used ironically?  It is, after
> all, entirely impossible for sheep and wolves to achieve a "win-win
> situation"!
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Robert
>
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