From Yevgeniy.A.Slivkin-1 at OU.EDU Thu Nov 1 01:42:05 2007 From: Yevgeniy.A.Slivkin-1 at OU.EDU (Yevgeniy.A.Slivkin-1 at OU.EDU) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 19:42:05 -0600 Subject: Conference: The Pain of Words: Narratives of Suffering in Slavic Cultures (May 9-11, 2008, Princeton) In-Reply-To: <4728BE46.2080101@comcast.net> Message-ID: What a discovery!!! I have never known that Avvakum, Custine, Chadaev,Lermontov, and Grossman were masochists. I will reread all these authors now with new eyes! Yevgeny Slivkin, Ph.D. Department of Modern Languages, Literatures, and Linguistics University of Oklahoma Kaufman Hall # 225A Office Phone: (405)325-5079 Norman, OK 73069 ----- Original Message ----- From: Daniel Rancour-Laferriere Date: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 2:09 pm Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Conference: The Pain of Words: Narratives of Suffering in Slavic Cultures (May 9-11, 2008, Princeton) To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU > 30 October 07 > > Dear Alex, > Not to worry. There is no need to open Pandora's Box here, on the > list. It's the conference organizers who are trying to keep that box > closed as a topic of their conference at Princeton. Stay cool. > Glasnost' is out. Putin is in. If they are lucky, Avvakum, Custine, > Chaadaev, Lermontov, Grossman, etc. etc. will be contained, the box will > stay closed. > > Cheers to the list, > > Daniel Rancour-Laferriere > > > Alex Spektor wrote: > > >oh no! not another pandora's box. maybe we should quickly return > to kurva, > >shliuha and svat'ia baba babariha while there's still time. > Although I doubt > >there is... > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From colkitto at ROGERS.COM Thu Nov 1 04:12:48 2007 From: colkitto at ROGERS.COM (colkitto) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 00:12:48 -0400 Subject: 'The Captain's Daughter' in English + Russkie Skazki Message-ID: Seelangovcy may interested in having look at the October 20 issue of the Spectator, which has a favourable review of Robert Chandler's new translation of Kapitanskaja docka, by Jonathan Mirsky. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Thu Nov 1 06:07:05 2007 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 06:07:05 +0000 Subject: 'The Captain's Daughter' in English + Russkie Skazki In-Reply-To: <00f401c81c3d$769ea3b0$a095f163@yourg9zekrp5zf> Message-ID: Thanks, but I would say a bit more: 'favourable' with regard to 'The Captain's Daughter' itself and to our translation of it; patronizing with regard to my introduction! (I have committed the sin of taking Pushkin too seriously.) Best Wishes to all, Robert > Seelangovcy may interested in having look at the October 20 issue of the > Spectator, which has a favourable review of Robert Chandler's new > translation of Kapitanskaja docka, by Jonathan Mirsky. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Thu Nov 1 06:10:55 2007 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 06:10:55 +0000 Subject: Conference: The Pain of Words: Narratives of Suffering in Slavic Cultures (May 9-11, 2008, Princeton) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I had not realized that Daniel Rancour-Laferriere, or anyone else, had implied that these writers are all THEMSELVES masochists. I had imagined R-L mentioned these writers because he thought that some of them, at least, had something interesting to say ABOUT masochism. R. > What a discovery!!! I have never known that Avvakum, Custine, > Chadaev,Lermontov, and Grossman > were masochists. I will reread all these authors now with new eyes! > > > > Yevgeny Slivkin, Ph.D. > Department of Modern Languages, Literatures, and Linguistics > University of Oklahoma > Kaufman Hall # 225A > Office Phone: (405)325-5079 > Norman, OK 73069 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Daniel Rancour-Laferriere > Date: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 2:09 pm > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Conference: The Pain of Words: Narratives of Suffering > in Slavic Cultures (May 9-11, 2008, Princeton) > To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU > > >> 30 October 07 >> >> Dear Alex, >> Not to worry. There is no need to open Pandora's Box here, on the >> list. It's the conference organizers who are trying to keep that box >> closed as a topic of their conference at Princeton. Stay cool. >> Glasnost' is out. Putin is in. If they are lucky, Avvakum, Custine, >> Chaadaev, Lermontov, Grossman, etc. etc. will be contained, the box will >> stay closed. >> >> Cheers to the list, >> >> Daniel Rancour-Laferriere >> >> >> Alex Spektor wrote: >> >>> oh no! not another pandora's box. maybe we should quickly return >> to kurva, >>> shliuha and svat'ia baba babariha while there's still time. >> Although I doubt >>> there is... >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jennifercarr at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Thu Nov 1 12:52:14 2007 From: jennifercarr at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jenny Carr) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 12:52:14 -0000 Subject: CDs etc wanted Message-ID: Maybe this is something SEELANGS members could help with? We have received a letter from the director of MOSCOW MUSIC COLLEGE asking for donations of CDs, DVDs and LPs. Extract below. If you can help please post to: Nickolay Carmanow, Director, Moscow Musical College 39-5-25, 3-Barkovaya street, 105037, Moscow, Russian Federation Phone: 7-095-5654257; Fax: 7-095-56542 E-mail 1: MusicalCollege at bk.ru E-mail 2: MusicalCollege at mtu-net.ru Web: http://MusicalCollege.narod.ru "More than 15 years we attended training to music of children from 5 till 14 years. Unfortunately, because of the heavy economic situation in which for a long time there was Russia, we on an extent several years on receive any financial support from the federal budget. The support rendered to us from the budget of the Moscow government - is minimum. I want to explain, that we do not collect a tuition fee in our college as, otherwise, the majority of parents cannot pay training of children. In view of the set forth above reasons for us all is more difficult to acquaint children with music. We have simply catastrophic situation with a teaching material, in particular with sound materials. We shall be very grateful, if you can send us any records of music on CDs, DVDs or LPs, even if their boxes are damaged. YOUR HELP IS NECESSARY FOR US! Nickolay Carmanow, Director, Moscow Musical College" Jenny Carr The Scotland-Russia Forum Registered charity no. SC038728 www.scotlandrussiaforum.org +44 (0)131 662 9149, 07939 200205 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mkatz at MIDDLEBURY.EDU Thu Nov 1 18:42:23 2007 From: mkatz at MIDDLEBURY.EDU (Katz, Michael) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 14:42:23 -0400 Subject: Avvakum Message-ID: Dear colleagues: A student asked me about the origin/etymology of the name Avvakum. Can anyone enlighten me so I can pass the information along? Michael Katz Middlebury College mkatz at middlebury.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jknox at BOWDOIN.EDU Thu Nov 1 18:49:33 2007 From: jknox at BOWDOIN.EDU (Jane Knox-Voina) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 14:49:33 -0400 Subject: Those in the North East Please join us! Message-ID: The Film Forum, “Kazakh Nation Building Through Film: Family and Women as its Cornerstones” November 6-10, 2007. Funded by Bowdoin College (Concerts&Lectures), Women’s Studies, Russian Department), The Maine Humanities Council and the International Research Exchange. Tuesday, November 6. 7:00 p.m. (Language Media Center Viewing Room). Gender Montage: Paradigms in Soviet Space (Central Asian Documentaries), Bowdoin College. Bowdoin College. Short women’s documentaries on poverty, trafficking drugs, slave market, an elderly woman’s creative tiny rug business. Q&A led by K. Ghodsee and Е. Stishova. Wednesday November 7. 7:00 p.m. (Curtis Memorial Library, Brunswick). Bride Kidnapping in Kyrgyzstan Director: Petr Lom (51 min) Documentary. Pure Coolness, Director: Ernest Abdyzhparov (95 min) 2007. Feature on Bride kidnapping (Kyrgyzstan) Thursday, November 8: 4:00 p.m. (Women’s Research Center) Round table with Women and Gender Studies with documentaries from Central Asian Gender Montage: Wishing for Seven Sons and One Daughter, and Invisible Friday, November 9. 7:00 p.m. (Beam Classroom) Topic – Film screening Waiting for Uigurstan, by Dr. Sean Roberts (Historian and Anthropologist, Georgetown University). Q & A Professor Shu-chin Tsui, Asian Studies, Bowdoin College November 10. 10:30 a.m. Eveningstar Cinema, Tontine Mall, Brunswick: Crazy Quilt, comic drama by Rustem Abddrashev, Kazakhstan Short documentary, Two Faces of a Nation, 2007, J. Knox-Voina, S. Chapple-Sokol, A. Karr, J, Greene, A, Handel, and J, Kellner ‘09 together with Kenzhebai Dusembaev Discussion and Kazakh food. Admission is Free! Jane Knox-Voina Russian Department Bowdoin College Brunswick, Maine 01044 Director, Silkway Films, USA. INC ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mkatz at MIDDLEBURY.EDU Thu Nov 1 18:58:20 2007 From: mkatz at MIDDLEBURY.EDU (Katz, Michael) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 14:58:20 -0400 Subject: Avvakum In-Reply-To: <20071101145324.xfadnqg5up4o04oo@webmail.mtholyoke.edu> Message-ID: Thanks very much. On 11/1/07 2:53 PM, "pscotto at MTHOLYOKE.EDU" wrote: > Habbakuk from the the Bible, I believe. > >> Dear colleagues: >> >> A student asked me about the origin/etymology of the name Avvakum. Can >> anyone enlighten me so I can pass the information along? >> >> Michael Katz >> Middlebury College >> mkatz at middlebury.edu >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pscotto at MTHOLYOKE.EDU Thu Nov 1 18:53:24 2007 From: pscotto at MTHOLYOKE.EDU (pscotto at MTHOLYOKE.EDU) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 14:53:24 -0400 Subject: Avvakum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Habbakuk from the the Bible, I believe. > Dear colleagues: > > A student asked me about the origin/etymology of the name Avvakum. Can > anyone enlighten me so I can pass the information along? > > Michael Katz > Middlebury College > mkatz at middlebury.edu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From darancourlaferriere at COMCAST.NET Thu Nov 1 19:35:27 2007 From: darancourlaferriere at COMCAST.NET (Daniel Rancour-Laferriere) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 12:35:27 -0700 Subject: Conference: The Pain of Words: Narratives of Suffering in Slavic Cultures (May 9-11, 2008, Princeton) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Robert, Actually, my short list includes both types. Vasilii Grossman wrote about the "slave soul" ("rabskaia dusha") of Russia, for example, while Avvakum himself was a masochist who actively sought punishment for himself. His autobiography is filled with grisly scenes of flogging, burning, mutilation, starvation, forced labor, and other horrors - all welcomed in the name of Western Civilization's paradigmatic masochist, Jesus the Christ. Symbolist poet Viacheslav Ivanov wrote of the Russians: "Hic populus natus est christianus." The term masochism derives from Leopold von Sacher-Masoch (1836-95), who was primarily concerned with erotogenic masochism. The cult of suffering which is widespread in Russia, on the other hand, involves what Freud termed moral masochism, and is generally termed just masochism or masochistic personality disorder in current psychoanalytic theory (e.g. in PDM). Most masochists do not actually derive pleasure from the pain they invite, but are compelled by other factors, such as guilt or shame or depression. An example would be Tolstoy in his quest for God. People who think masochism is only the sort of thing depicted in VENUS IN FURS are not up on current theory. Although there is a cult of suffering in Russia, I do not believe that MOST of the widespread suffering and pain endured in Russia during the twentieth century was masochistic in nature. For example, most victims in the war against Hitler's invading forces were not victims because they were masochists, but because of other factors outside of their control (including the psychiatric problems of both Stalin and Hitler). The victims' narratives of pain and suffering elicit profound sympathy, or even despair, or rage. On the other hand it is more difficult to sympathize with the masochistic Avvakum, or, to take a more extreme example, the folkloric figure of Ivan durak, who actually elicits laughter when he is playing the fool and getting himself painfully beaten time after time. "Pain and suffering" happens to people, human beings - not to "words" or "narratives." The latter phenomena are signifying mechanisms, eloquent at best, and unrecorded for the vast majority of victims. With regards to the list, Daniel R-L Robert Chandler wrote: >I had not realized that Daniel Rancour-Laferriere, or anyone else, had >implied that these writers are all THEMSELVES masochists. I had imagined >R-L mentioned these writers because he thought that some of them, at least, >had something interesting to say ABOUT masochism. > >R. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From nataliek at UALBERTA.CA Thu Nov 1 20:04:40 2007 From: nataliek at UALBERTA.CA (nataliek at UALBERTA.CA) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 14:04:40 -0600 Subject: Graduate study in Folklore Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, The Ukrainian Folklore Program is accepting applications to its graduate program in the Department of Modern Languages and Cultural Studies at the University of Alberta. The program offers both the MA and PhD degrees. Courses cover the verbal arts, both prose and poetry, material culture, ritual practices in Ukraine and Canada, folklore theory and methodology, and folk belief. Students may choose fieldwork in either Ukraine or Canada or a combination of the two and a recent agreement with the Rylskyi Institute of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences should expand field and archival research possibilities in Ukraine. Opportunities for language training are excellent and students may include work in Lviv as part of their program. Courses in fields related to folklore include humanities computing, anthropology, museum studies, and ethnomusicology, along with a wide range of choices in other departments. Our degrees prepare students for a variety of interesting jobs and recent graduates have found employment in academe, in museums and historical preservation facilities, in archives, and in the public sector, notably working with immigrants and in medical humanities. Graduate support is generous and students typically work as both teaching assistants and research assistants. Research assistantships include database and archival work and thus contribute to training and employability. For more information, see www.ukrfolk.ca, www.mlcs.ca or contact Andriy Nahachewsky, Huculak Chair and Centre Director at andriyn at ualberta.ca or Natalie Kononenko, Kule Chair of Ukrainian Ethnography at nataliek at ualberta.ca Natalie Kononenko Kule Chair of Ukrainian Ethnography University of Alberta Modern Languages and Cultural Studies 200 Arts Building Edmonton, Alberta, Canada T6G 2E6 Phone: 780-492-6810 Web: http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/uvp/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From margarita at RENT-A-MIND.COM Thu Nov 1 21:45:28 2007 From: margarita at RENT-A-MIND.COM (Margarita Orlova) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 13:45:28 -0800 Subject: Avvakum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Avvakum = AVVA + KUM cf. English ABBA: In the Old testament, 'Father', In the New Testament, 'God'. [ from Late Latin "abb", from Greek; from Hebrew 'father', cf. English "abbot"] However, in the Middle-Age Greek, the phonetic transformation happened: [b->v], thus, the word came into Slavic languages as AVVA, [Old Slavonic = "Otche", Vocative of "Otetc" = 'Father'] Hebrew root [qum] included in the word formations, which are signifying the act of 'bending' to somebody. Just my two cents. Margarita On Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 10:42 AM, Katz, Michael wrote: > Dear colleagues: > > A student asked me about the origin/etymology of the name Avvakum. Can > anyone enlighten me so I can pass the information along? > > Michael Katz > Middlebury College > mkatz at middlebury.edu > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From nataliek at UALBERTA.CA Thu Nov 1 21:48:02 2007 From: nataliek at UALBERTA.CA (nataliek at UALBERTA.CA) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 15:48:02 -0600 Subject: Folkloric 2007 Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I am pleased to announce the publication of this year's issue of Folklorica, the journal of SEEFA, the Slavic and East European Folklore Association. This issue is especially full and includes a special section on Ukrainian Folklore. There are also articles on other topics, including folk religious belief, and a large number of book reviews (eight), two of which are longer, survey pieces. The table of contents is below. Please consider joining SEEFA. You can download an application form on our website: http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/SEEFA/ We have recently updated this site and opened the preceeding issue of Folklorica, the one for 2006, to public access. Folklorica 2007 contents: Studies in Ukrainian Folklore From Ritual Object To Art Form: The Ukrainian Easter Egg Pysanka In Its Canadian Context Mariya Lesiv Buried Treasures: Narratives of an Immigrant from Ukraine in Israel Larisa Fialkova Animal Magic: Contemporary Beliefs and Practices in Ukrainian Villages Svitlana P. Kukharenko K. V. Kvitka’s Correspondence with the Academicians of Petrograd Leningrad M. A. Lobanov Other Folklore Articles Narratives on the Rescue of the Infant Jesus in the Russian Folk “Bible” (Siberian Russian Texts) V. S. Kuznetsova Contemporary Urban Russian Funerals: Continuity and Change J. Rouhier-Willoughby Natalie Kononenko Kule Chair of Ukrainian Ethnography University of Alberta Modern Languages and Cultural Studies 200 Arts Building Edmonton, Alberta, Canada T6G 2E6 Phone: 780-492-6810 Web: http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/uvp/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Fri Nov 2 00:30:17 2007 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 20:30:17 -0400 Subject: Conference: The Pain of Words: Narratives of Suffering in Slavic Cultures (May 9-11, 2008, Princeton) Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Yevgeniy.A.Slivkin-1 at OU.EDU Date: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 9:42 pm Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Conference: The Pain of Words: Narratives of Suffering in Slavic Cultures (May 9-11, 2008, Princeton) > What a discovery!!! I have never known that Avvakum, Custine, > Chadaev,Lermontov, and Grossman > were masochists. I will reread all these authors now with new > eyes! > > > > Yevgeny Slivkin, Ph.D. > Department of Modern Languages, Literatures, and Linguistics > University of Oklahoma > Kaufman Hall # 225A > Office Phone: (405)325-5079 > Norman, OK 73069 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Daniel Rancour-Laferriere > Date: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 2:09 pm > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Conference: The Pain of Words: Narratives > of Suffering in Slavic Cultures (May 9-11, 2008, Princeton) > To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU > > > > 30 October 07 > > > > Dear Alex, > > Not to worry. There is no need to open Pandora's Box here, on the > > list. It's the conference organizers who are trying to keep > that box > > closed as a topic of their conference at Princeton. Stay cool. > > Glasnost' is out. Putin is in. If they are lucky, Avvakum, > Custine,> Chaadaev, Lermontov, Grossman, etc. etc. will be > contained, the box will > > stay closed. > > > > Cheers to the list, > > > > Daniel Rancour-Laferriere > > > > > > Alex Spektor wrote: > > > > >oh no! not another pandora's box. maybe we should quickly > return > > to kurva, > > >shliuha and svat'ia baba babariha while there's still time. > > Although I doubt > > >there is... > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the > SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS > Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Fri Nov 2 02:18:09 2007 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 02:18:09 +0000 Subject: Avvakum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not from Hebrew directly but from the late Greek Abbakoum, from the Septuagint Ambakoum = Habacuc (the 8th minor prophet) in the Vulgate and Habbakuk in the King James version. Beta in Greek is regularly rendered as v in Church Slavonic. The phonetic progression of mb(mv) to bb(vv) is unproblematic. A direct borrowing of a biblical name from Hebrew in Old Russian or Church Slavonic would be very surprising since few if any Orthodox Slavs knew Hebrew but did of course know the Church Slavonic translations of the books of the Septuagint. Will Ryan Margarita Orlova wrote: >> Avvakum = AVVA + KUM > > cf. English ABBA: In the Old testament, 'Father', In the New > Testament, 'God'. > > [ from Late Latin "abb", from Greek; from Hebrew 'father', cf. > English "abbot"] > However, in the Middle-Age Greek, the phonetic transformation > happened: [b->v], thus, the word came into Slavic languages as AVVA, > [Old Slavonic = "Otche", Vocative of "Otetc" = 'Father'] > > Hebrew root [qum] included in the word formations, which are > signifying the act of 'bending' to somebody. > > Just my two cents. > > Margarita > > > On Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 10:42 AM, Katz, Michael wrote: > >> Dear colleagues: >> >> A student asked me about the origin/etymology of the name Avvakum. Can >> anyone enlighten me so I can pass the information along? >> >> Michael Katz >> Middlebury College >> mkatz at middlebury.edu >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Fri Nov 2 02:49:56 2007 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 21:49:56 -0500 Subject: Avvakum Message-ID: Will is correct about this particular name. For the direct Hebrew borrowings in OR and OCS, and R, however, see the research on the Judaizers (zhidovstvuiushchie) and their texts and translations, e.g., the Psalter. The best work done so far, I believe, is by Andrey Arkhipov, the greatest scholar of the problem known to me, sadly and scandalously currently unemployed. I don't believe he is on SEELANGS but I can give his email to anyone interested in these etymological questions. o.m. ----- Original Message ----- From: William Ryan Date: Thursday, November 1, 2007 9:18 pm Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Avvakum > Not from Hebrew directly but from the late Greek Abbakoum, from the > Septuagint Ambakoum = Habacuc (the 8th minor prophet) in the > Vulgate and > Habbakuk in the King James version. Beta in Greek is regularly > rendered > as v in Church Slavonic. The phonetic progression of mb(mv) to > bb(vv) is > unproblematic. A direct borrowing of a biblical name from Hebrew in > Old > Russian or Church Slavonic would be very surprising since few if > any > Orthodox Slavs knew Hebrew but did of course know the Church > Slavonic > translations of the books of the Septuagint. > Will Ryan > > > Margarita Orlova wrote: > >> Avvakum = AVVA + KUM > > > > cf. English ABBA: In the Old testament, 'Father', In the New > > Testament, 'God'. > > > > [ from Late Latin "abb", from Greek; from Hebrew 'father', cf. > > English "abbot"] > > However, in the Middle-Age Greek, the phonetic transformation > > happened: [b->v], thus, the word came into Slavic languages as > AVVA, > > [Old Slavonic = "Otche", Vocative of "Otetc" = 'Father'] > > > > Hebrew root [qum] included in the word formations, which are > > signifying the act of 'bending' to somebody. > > > > Just my two cents. > > > > Margarita > > > > > > On Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 10:42 AM, Katz, Michael wrote: > > > >> Dear colleagues: > >> > >> A student asked me about the origin/etymology of the name > Avvakum. Can > >> anyone enlighten me so I can pass the information along? > >> > >> Michael Katz > >> Middlebury College > >> mkatz at middlebury.edu > >> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> > >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription>> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the > SEELANGS Web Interface at: > >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS > Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------- > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS > Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Fri Nov 2 12:04:50 2007 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 12:04:50 +0000 Subject: Avvakum In-Reply-To: <2686e02666ff.2666ff2686e0@imap.georgetown.edu> Message-ID: Perhaps I should have been more specific and said that it was the direct borrowing of Hebrew biblical names _for use by Russians as baptismal names_ which would be surprising. The question of the appearance of Hebrew words in specific texts is another matter - I avoided mentioning the 'Judaizer' texts referred to by Olga since they are a special case with very limited circulation in most cases, and forms found there can hardly be described as loan words. An exception might be the Tainaia tainykh and the extract from it which is known in lechebniki as Nauka Moiseia Egiptianina - but without checking exhaustively I can't say if the relatively wide availability of this text actually led to any lexical loans. For colleagues interested in this topic, Arkhipov has indeed made good contributions to this study; see also important studies and editions by Moshe Taube, some in conjunction with Horace Lunt, and, more controversially, some of the older work by N. A. Meshcherskii. On the lexical material, including Hebrew and Arabic via Hebrew, in the Old Russian translation of the Hebrew version of the medical works of Maimonides, which are interpolated in the Tainaia tainykh, see my own article 'Maimonides in Muscovy: Medical Texts and Terminology', Journal of the Warburg and Courtauld Institutes, 51, 1989 (in JSTOR). Will Ryan Olga Meerson wrote: > Will is correct about this particular name. For the direct Hebrew borrowings in OR and OCS, and R, however, see the research on the Judaizers (zhidovstvuiushchie) and their texts and translations, e.g., the Psalter. The best work done so far, I believe, is by Andrey Arkhipov, the greatest scholar of the problem known to me, sadly and scandalously currently unemployed. I don't believe he is on SEELANGS but I can give his email to anyone interested in these etymological questions. > o.m. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: William Ryan > Date: Thursday, November 1, 2007 9:18 pm > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Avvakum > > >> Not from Hebrew directly but from the late Greek Abbakoum, from the >> Septuagint Ambakoum = Habacuc (the 8th minor prophet) in the >> Vulgate and >> Habbakuk in the King James version. Beta in Greek is regularly >> rendered >> as v in Church Slavonic. The phonetic progression of mb(mv) to >> bb(vv) is >> unproblematic. A direct borrowing of a biblical name from Hebrew in >> Old >> Russian or Church Slavonic would be very surprising since few if >> any >> Orthodox Slavs knew Hebrew but did of course know the Church >> Slavonic >> translations of the books of the Septuagint. >> Will Ryan >> >> >> Margarita Orlova wrote: >> >>>> Avvakum = AVVA + KUM >>>> >>> cf. English ABBA: In the Old testament, 'Father', In the New >>> Testament, 'God'. >>> >>> [ from Late Latin "abb", from Greek; from Hebrew 'father', cf. >>> English "abbot"] >>> However, in the Middle-Age Greek, the phonetic transformation >>> happened: [b->v], thus, the word came into Slavic languages as >>> >> AVVA, >> >>> [Old Slavonic = "Otche", Vocative of "Otetc" = 'Father'] >>> >>> Hebrew root [qum] included in the word formations, which are >>> signifying the act of 'bending' to somebody. >>> >>> Just my two cents. >>> >>> Margarita >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 10:42 AM, Katz, Michael wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Dear colleagues: >>>> >>>> A student asked me about the origin/etymology of the name >>>> >> Avvakum. Can >> >>>> anyone enlighten me so I can pass the information along? >>>> >>>> Michael Katz >>>> Middlebury College >>>> mkatz at middlebury.edu >>>> >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >> -------- >> >>>> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your >>>> >> subscription>> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the >> SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> >>>> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >> -------- >> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >> ------- >> >>> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your >>> >> subscription> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS >> Web Interface at: >> >>> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >> ------- >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your >> subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS >> Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----- >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Fri Nov 2 12:39:08 2007 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 07:39:08 -0500 Subject: Avvakum Message-ID: Will, many thanks for all your references from which many of us will greatly benefit and I am planning to start benefiting asap. (I know well only Taube's work, besides Arkhipov's, but then again, my knowledge in the field is only tangential, only when it comes to the history of exegesis for the purposes of Russian Church mentality and auto-pilot hermeneutics). I am especially grateful for your reference to your own work on Maimonides. Beautiful. Will read carefully. Do you happen to know the work of Mira Mikhailovna Geffen (Gefen? Rozhanskaia, by her husband's name--what a name! Miriam-the-Vine!--her daughter, who is an excellent poet with a great ear, really savors and appreciates the name) in Moscow, on the history of mathematical terminology as derived from Arabic, or as compared to Arabic? The scholars at the Institut Istorii Nauki (including her) have some interesting insights here. o.m. ----- Original Message ----- From: William Ryan Date: Friday, November 2, 2007 7:04 am Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Avvakum > Perhaps I should have been more specific and said that it was the > direct > borrowing of Hebrew biblical names _for use by Russians as > baptismal > names_ which would be surprising. The question of the appearance of > Hebrew words in specific texts is another matter - I avoided > mentioning > the 'Judaizer' texts referred to by Olga since they are a special > case > with very limited circulation in most cases, and forms found there > can > hardly be described as loan words. An exception might be the > Tainaia > tainykh and the extract from it which is known in lechebniki as > Nauka > Moiseia Egiptianina - but without checking exhaustively I can't say > if > the relatively wide availability of this text actually led to any > lexical loans. For colleagues interested in this topic, Arkhipov > has > indeed made good contributions to this study; see also important > studies > and editions by Moshe Taube, some in conjunction with Horace Lunt, > and, > more controversially, some of the older work by N. A. Meshcherskii. > On > the lexical material, including Hebrew and Arabic via Hebrew, in > the Old > Russian translation of the Hebrew version of the medical works of > Maimonides, which are interpolated in the Tainaia tainykh, see my > own > article 'Maimonides in Muscovy: Medical Texts and Terminology', > Journal > of the Warburg and Courtauld Institutes, 51, 1989 (in JSTOR). > Will Ryan > > Olga Meerson wrote: > > Will is correct about this particular name. For the direct Hebrew > borrowings in OR and OCS, and R, however, see the research on the > Judaizers (zhidovstvuiushchie) and their texts and translations, > e.g., the Psalter. The best work done so far, I believe, is by > Andrey Arkhipov, the greatest scholar of the problem known to me, > sadly and scandalously currently unemployed. I don't believe he is > on SEELANGS but I can give his email to anyone interested in these > etymological questions. > > o.m. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: William Ryan > > Date: Thursday, November 1, 2007 9:18 pm > > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Avvakum > > > > > >> Not from Hebrew directly but from the late Greek Abbakoum, from > the > >> Septuagint Ambakoum = Habacuc (the 8th minor prophet) in the > >> Vulgate and > >> Habbakuk in the King James version. Beta in Greek is regularly > >> rendered > >> as v in Church Slavonic. The phonetic progression of mb(mv) to > >> bb(vv) is > >> unproblematic. A direct borrowing of a biblical name from Hebrew > in > >> Old > >> Russian or Church Slavonic would be very surprising since few if > >> any > >> Orthodox Slavs knew Hebrew but did of course know the Church > >> Slavonic > >> translations of the books of the Septuagint. > >> Will Ryan > >> > >> > >> Margarita Orlova wrote: > >> > >>>> Avvakum = AVVA + KUM > >>>> > >>> cf. English ABBA: In the Old testament, 'Father', In the New > >>> Testament, 'God'. > >>> > >>> [ from Late Latin "abb", from Greek; from Hebrew 'father', cf. > >>> English "abbot"] > >>> However, in the Middle-Age Greek, the phonetic transformation > >>> happened: [b->v], thus, the word came into Slavic languages as > >>> > >> AVVA, > >> > >>> [Old Slavonic = "Otche", Vocative of "Otetc" = 'Father'] > >>> > >>> Hebrew root [qum] included in the word formations, which are > >>> signifying the act of 'bending' to somebody. > >>> > >>> Just my two cents. > >>> > >>> Margarita > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 10:42 AM, Katz, Michael wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> Dear colleagues: > >>>> > >>>> A student asked me about the origin/etymology of the name > >>>> > >> Avvakum. Can > >> > >>>> anyone enlighten me so I can pass the information along? > >>>> > >>>> Michael Katz > >>>> Middlebury College > >>>> mkatz at middlebury.edu > >>>> > >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > >>>> > >> -------- > >> > >>>> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > >>>> > >> subscription>> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the > >> SEELANGS Web Interface at: > >> > >>>> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > >>>> > >> -------- > >> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > >>> > >> ------- > >> > >>> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > >>> > >> subscription> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the > SEELANGS > >> Web Interface at: > >> > >>> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > >>> > >> ------- > >> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > >> ----- > >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > >> subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the > SEELANGS > >> Web Interface at: > >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > >> ----- > >> > >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS > Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------- > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS > Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pankova+ at PITT.EDU Fri Nov 2 12:53:07 2007 From: pankova+ at PITT.EDU (pankova+ at PITT.EDU) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:53:07 -0400 Subject: Conference: The Pain of Words: Narratives of Suffering in Slavic Cultures (May 9-11, 2008, Princeton) In-Reply-To: <2ca51a2c84b2.2c84b22ca51a@imap.georgetown.edu> Message-ID: I agree that debates on masochism do tend to be tautological. On the other hand, how could we pinpoint a simple explanation why "[s]ometimes a man is intensely, even passionately, attached to suffering -that is a fact"? FMD's take on this would certainly greatly differ from Freud's (both the earlier one and the later one) which, in turn, differs from any number of other psychological explanations of masochism. Lenka Pankova > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Yevgeniy.A.Slivkin-1 at OU.EDU > Date: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 9:42 pm > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Conference: The Pain of Words: Narratives of > Suffering in Slavic Cultures (May 9-11, 2008, Princeton) > >> What a discovery!!! I have never known that Avvakum, Custine, >> Chadaev,Lermontov, and Grossman >> were masochists. I will reread all these authors now with new >> eyes! >> >> >> >> Yevgeny Slivkin, Ph.D. >> Department of Modern Languages, Literatures, and Linguistics >> University of Oklahoma >> Kaufman Hall # 225A >> Office Phone: (405)325-5079 >> Norman, OK 73069 >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Daniel Rancour-Laferriere >> Date: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 2:09 pm >> Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Conference: The Pain of Words: Narratives >> of Suffering in Slavic Cultures (May 9-11, 2008, Princeton) >> To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU >> >> >> > 30 October 07 >> > >> > Dear Alex, >> > Not to worry. There is no need to open Pandora's Box here, on the >> > list. It's the conference organizers who are trying to keep >> that box >> > closed as a topic of their conference at Princeton. Stay cool. >> > Glasnost' is out. Putin is in. If they are lucky, Avvakum, >> Custine,> Chaadaev, Lermontov, Grossman, etc. etc. will be >> contained, the box will >> > stay closed. >> > >> > Cheers to the list, >> > >> > Daniel Rancour-Laferriere >> > >> > >> > Alex Spektor wrote: >> > >> > >oh no! not another pandora's box. maybe we should quickly >> return >> > to kurva, >> > >shliuha and svat'ia baba babariha while there's still time. >> > Although I doubt >> > >there is... >> > > >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your >> subscription> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the >> SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ------ >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your >> subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS >> Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ------ >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pashkovska_k at MAIL.RU Sat Nov 3 02:42:47 2007 From: pashkovska_k at MAIL.RU (Kateryna Pashkovska) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 05:42:47 +0300 Subject: Lullabies Message-ID: Hi all, I need your advice regarding the field of folklore. I'm writing my Master's thesis on American lullabies, and it turned out to be a weary work to collect lullabies themselves. Does anybody know any collections or recordings of lullabies, preferably American folk ones and not literary? Also, the titles and authors of critical and research works on this topic will be appreciated. Thanks a lot, Kateryna. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From schwartzm at SBCGLOBAL.NET Sat Nov 3 14:54:53 2007 From: schwartzm at SBCGLOBAL.NET (Marian Schwartz) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 09:54:53 -0500 Subject: Tolstoy and the New York Times Message-ID: For those of you who haven't seen this, the New York Times Reading Room is running a long discussion of the Pevear-Volokhonsky War and Peace with such contributors as Bill Keller, Sam Tanenhouse, Francine Prose, and Liesl Schillinger. It would be wonderful if someone knowledgeable about Tolstoy, and particularly his writing style, could weigh in on the discussion. You should be able to access the blog at http://readingroom.blogs.nytimes.com Sincerely, Marian Schwartz ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From lllittle at WISC.EDU Sat Nov 3 16:15:30 2007 From: lllittle at WISC.EDU (Laura Little) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 11:15:30 -0500 Subject: Elena Shvarts poetry reading at UW-Madison Message-ID: The following event is co-sponsored by University of Wisconsin-Madison's CREECA and Department of Slavic Languages and Literatures. *** Please join us for a poetry reading by renowned Russian poet Elena Shvarts. Tuesday, November 6 at 5:00 pm 126 Memorial Library 728 State Street About the poet: Elena Shvarts is recognized as one of the leading poets writing in Russian today. Born in 1948 in Leningrad, Shvarts started writing poetry at the age of thirteen and was received as something of a wunderkind by readers and writers of the Soviet Union’s officially banned literature, its so-called “second literature.” A prominent participant in the Leningrad intellectual underground, Shvarts moved in the dissident literary and artistic circles that flourished in the 1970s and ‘80s, publishing verse and criticism in the samizdat and tamizdat. The author of over a dozen volumes of verse and the subject of over a hundred scholarly articles and reviews, Shvarts’ reputation continues to grow both at home and abroad. In 2003 her poetry was collected by Petersburg publisher Pushkinskii dom in a two-volume edition for which she was awarded the prestigious Triumph Prize. A Gogol prize followed a year later for the prose collection _Vidimaia storona zhizni_. In January of this year the Moscow literary journal Znamia, to which Shvarts is a frequent contributor, singled out her “Kitaiskaia igrushka” cycle of verse with one of its annual prizes. _Birdsong on the Seabed_, a Russian-English bilingual edition of her poems, is forthcoming from publisher Bloodaxe Books. Among the more striking characteristics of Elena Shvarts’ verse are the intensity of its existential exploration, its continually shifting rhythms and intonations, the multiplicity of its authorial personae and frames of reference, and its striking and often violent imagery. Drago Momcilovic CREECA Events Coordinator Center for Russia, East Europe, and Central Asia 210 Ingraham Hall 1155 Observatory Drive Madison, WI 53706 Phone:(608) 262-3379 Fax: (608) 890-0267 www.creeca.wisc.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Mogens.Jensen at SKOLEKOM.DK Sun Nov 4 09:47:52 2007 From: Mogens.Jensen at SKOLEKOM.DK (Mogens Jensen) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 10:47:52 +0100 Subject: All Cyrillic font In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Seelangers – can anyone recomend a font with all cyrillic characters, also those used by eg. non-slavic languages ? Arial Unicode MS does not include all of these characters (eg unicode range 0500) Best regards, Mogens Jensen, Denmark ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Sun Nov 4 13:25:40 2007 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 08:25:40 -0500 Subject: All Cyrillic font In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mogens Jensen wrote: > Dear Seelangers – can anyone recomend a font with all cyrillic characters, > also those used by eg. non-slavic languages ? > Arial Unicode MS does not include all of these characters (eg unicode > range 0500) As far as I can tell, it does -- what version of the font do you have and how are you displaying its inventory? It does have a jump between 04F9 (ӹ, end of Cyrillic) and 0531 (Ա, beginning of Armenian), but I'm seeing lots and lots of non-Russian Cyrillic characters beginning at 0452 (ђ). It has obsolete letters like 0462 (Ѣ), as well as full sets for Serbian, Bulgarian, all the Central Asian languages, etc. I only have version 1.01 of August 6, 1990, but that appears to be the current version. It's installed automatically with Windows XP and also comes as an option with Office products from 2000 onward. MS says: Note -- If you are using Microsoft Windows XP, the universal font for Unicode is automatically installed. Arial Unicode MS font is a full Unicode (Unicode: A character encoding standard developed by the Unicode Consortium. By using more than one byte to represent each character, Unicode enables almost all of the written languages in the world to be represented by using a single character set.) font. It contains all of the characters, ideographs, and symbols defined in the Unicode 2.1 standard. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From J.Dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Sun Nov 4 13:26:36 2007 From: J.Dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 14:26:36 +0100 Subject: Tolstoy and the New York Times Message-ID: Lowering the tone by several octaves (if that's what tones are measured in), I should perhaps alert you to the sumptuous, multi-national, multi-lingual adaptation of War and Peace that RAI Uno (the first channel of Italian state television) has just shown in four 2-hour episodes. The production involved six different co-producers and actors from ten different countries, and while I have no skills in multi-lingual lip-reading, I calculated that the actors between them probably spoke their lines in six different languages, though all was, naturally, dubbed into Italian. I would like to be able to say that the adaptation displayed all the virtues one would expect from something produced in such circumstances, but, in my view, it was nowhere near as good as that, and I gave up part-way through episode 2. Some of you, though, should be able to judge for yourselves, since I assume (and, as an Italian TV licence-payer who does not want to see yet more time given up to ex-Rangers football players and assorted comedians advertising mobile telephones, devoutly hope) that RAI and its co-producers will want to recoup their money by selling it to as many countries as possible. Since one of the co-producers was the Rossiya TV channel, it will presumably be shown in due course in Russia, but I doubt if the the presence of two reasonably well-known British actors in minor roles will be enough to persuade anglophone broadcasters to part with their cash. It did, incidentally, occur to me to wonder if the director shot millions of hours of film, which different editors can cut and paste to produce a version that matches each nation's view of what War and Peace should be like. Probably not, alas(?). John Dunn. -----Original Message----- From: Marian Schwartz To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 09:54:53 -0500 Subject: [SEELANGS] Tolstoy and the New York Times For those of you who haven't seen this, the New York Times Reading Room is running a long discussion of the Pevear-Volokhonsky War and Peace with such contributors as Bill Keller, Sam Tanenhouse, Francine Prose, and Liesl Schillinger. It would be wonderful if someone knowledgeable about Tolstoy, and particularly his writing style, could weigh in on the discussion. You should be able to access the blog at http://readingroom.blogs.nytimes.com Sincerely, Marian Schwartz ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Dunn Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) University of Glasgow, Scotland Address: Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 40137 Bologna Italy Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From k.r.hauge at ILOS.UIO.NO Sun Nov 4 13:28:10 2007 From: k.r.hauge at ILOS.UIO.NO (=?windows-1252?Q?Kjetil_R=E5_Hauge?=) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 14:28:10 +0100 Subject: All Cyrillic font In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mogens Jensen wrote: > Dear Seelangers – can anyone recomend a font with all cyrillic characters, > also those used by eg. non-slavic languages ? > Arial Unicode MS does not include all of these characters (eg unicode > range 0500) Charis SIL would be your best bet, with runners-up Lucida Grande and Titus Cyberbit. -- --- Kjetil Rå Hauge, U. of Oslo --- tel. +47/22856710, fax +1/5084372444 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Mogens.Jensen at SKOLEKOM.DK Sun Nov 4 14:13:20 2007 From: Mogens.Jensen at SKOLEKOM.DK (Mogens Jensen) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 15:13:20 +0100 Subject: All Cyrillic font In-Reply-To: <472DC8EA.8070903@ilos.uio.no> Message-ID: Thank you very much to all participants - the Charis SIL is what I was looking for ! Best regards, Mogens Jensen "SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list" den 4. november 2007 kl. 14:28 +0100 skrev: >Mogens Jensen wrote: >> Dear Seelangers – can anyone recomend a font with all cyrillic >characters, >> also those used by eg. non-slavic languages ? >> Arial Unicode MS does not include all of these characters (eg unicode >> range 0500) > >Charis SIL would be your best bet, with runners-up Lucida Grande and >Titus Cyberbit. > >-- >--- Kjetil Rå Hauge, U. of Oslo >--- tel. +47/22856710, fax +1/5084372444 > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >================================================ >Denne meddelelse med evt. vedlæg er scannet af SkoleKom. > >Meddelelsen kan læses sikkert. Det kán i sjældne tilfælde være kritisk at >hente vedlæg. Kontakt din systemadministrator, hvis du er i tvivl. > >Læs her: http://forside.skolekom.dk/indhold/punkt1/viruspolitik for >yderligere information om SkoleKoms scanning for virus og spam. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jeffhold at INDIANA.EDU Sun Nov 4 14:24:12 2007 From: jeffhold at INDIANA.EDU (Holdeman, Jeffrey D.) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 09:24:12 -0500 Subject: African-American emigration from the US to the Soviet Union In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear SEELangentsiia, Can anyone point me to sources for the history of African-American emigration from the U.S. to the Soviet Union? Works on the African-American (immigrant/expat) experience in the Soviet Union would also be appreciated. I will summarize the responses for the list. Jeff Dr. Jeffrey D. Holdeman Slavic Language Coordinator, Dept. of Slavic Languages and Literatures Director, Global Village Living-Learning Center Indiana University jeffhold at indiana.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Sun Nov 4 15:58:28 2007 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 10:58:28 -0500 Subject: Tolstoy and the New York Times In-Reply-To: <1194182796.9117c79cJ.Dunn@slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Nov 4, 2007, at 8:26 AM, John Dunn wrote: > Lowering the tone by several octaves (if that's what tones are > measured in), I should perhaps alert you to the sumptuous, multi- > national, multi-lingual adaptation of War and Peace that RAI Uno > (the first channel of Italian state television) has just shown in > four 2-hour episodes. The production involved six different co- > producers and actors from ten different countries, and while I have > no skills in multi-lingual lip-reading, I calculated that the > actors between them probably spoke their lines in six different > languages, though all was, naturally, dubbed into Italian. > Yes, here's the backstage clip: www.dailymotion.com/video/x36o2p_guerra-e-pace-backstage-dal-21-otto_ads Kostalevsky speaking Italian is at the very end. Alina Israeli LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW Washington DC. 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Sun Nov 4 18:02:06 2007 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 13:02:06 -0500 Subject: African-American emigration from the US to the Soviet Union In-Reply-To: <20071104092412.idkvghgn0g8coks0@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Start with her: http://www.africana.ru/Golden/ http://africana.ru/index.htm Also search Оливер Голден, her father. On Nov 4, 2007, at 9:24 AM, Holdeman, Jeffrey D. wrote: > Dear SEELangentsiia, > > Can anyone point me to sources for the history of African-American > emigration from the U.S. to the Soviet Union? Works on the African- > American (immigrant/expat) experience in the Soviet Union would > also be appreciated. I will summarize the responses for the list. > > Jeff > > Dr. Jeffrey D. Holdeman > Slavic Language Coordinator, > Dept. of Slavic Languages and Literatures > Director, Global Village Living-Learning Center > Indiana University > jeffhold at indiana.edu > Alina Israeli LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW Washington DC. 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Sun Nov 4 18:33:00 2007 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 13:33:00 -0500 Subject: Tolstoy and the New York Times Message-ID: Alinochka, darling, lowering the tone by one octave already gives you the difference between the female mezzo and the male baritone range :) I love the Pevears and, just back from Italy, saw the ads for the Italian TV production. What do you think of it? Anyone else? o.m. ----- Original Message ----- From: Alina Israeli Date: Sunday, November 4, 2007 10:58 am Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Tolstoy and the New York Times > On Nov 4, 2007, at 8:26 AM, John Dunn wrote: > > > Lowering the tone by several octaves (if that's what tones are > > measured in), I should perhaps alert you to the sumptuous, multi- > > national, multi-lingual adaptation of War and Peace that RAI Uno > > (the first channel of Italian state television) has just shown in > > > four 2-hour episodes. The production involved six different co- > > producers and actors from ten different countries, and while I > have > > no skills in multi-lingual lip-reading, I calculated that the > > actors between them probably spoke their lines in six different > > languages, though all was, naturally, dubbed into Italian. > > > > Yes, here's the backstage clip: > www.dailymotion.com/video/x36o2p_guerra-e-pace-backstage-dal-21- > otto_adsKostalevsky speaking Italian is at the very end. > > > > Alina Israeli > LFS, American University > 4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW > Washington DC. 20016 > (202) 885-2387 > fax (202) 885-1076 > aisrael at american.edu > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS > Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From grylkova at UFL.EDU Mon Nov 5 01:12:55 2007 From: grylkova at UFL.EDU (Galina Rylkova) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 20:12:55 -0500 Subject: Evropa znakomitsia s Tolstym In-Reply-To: <35899e35cda1.35cda135899e@imap.georgetown.edu> Message-ID: Dear colleagues, below is the link to "Evropa znakomitsia s Tolstym." I hope it will work. http://www.rutv.ru/rnews.html?id=127814&d=0 Galina Rylkova On Nov 4, 2007, at 1:33 PM, Olga Meerson wrote: > Alinochka, darling, lowering the tone by one octave already gives you > the difference between the female mezzo and the male baritone range :) > I love the Pevears and, just back from Italy, saw the ads for the > Italian TV production. What do you think of it? Anyone else? > o.m. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Alina Israeli > Date: Sunday, November 4, 2007 10:58 am > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Tolstoy and the New York Times > >> On Nov 4, 2007, at 8:26 AM, John Dunn wrote: >> >>> Lowering the tone by several octaves (if that's what tones are >>> measured in), I should perhaps alert you to the sumptuous, multi- >>> national, multi-lingual adaptation of War and Peace that RAI Uno >>> (the first channel of Italian state television) has just shown in >> >>> four 2-hour episodes. The production involved six different co- >>> producers and actors from ten different countries, and while I >> have >>> no skills in multi-lingual lip-reading, I calculated that the >>> actors between them probably spoke their lines in six different >>> languages, though all was, naturally, dubbed into Italian. >>> >> >> Yes, here's the backstage clip: >> www.dailymotion.com/video/x36o2p_guerra-e-pace-backstage-dal-21- >> otto_adsKostalevsky speaking Italian is at the very end. >> >> >> >> Alina Israeli >> LFS, American University >> 4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW >> Washington DC. 20016 >> (202) 885-2387 >> fax (202) 885-1076 >> aisrael at american.edu >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your >> subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS >> Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----- >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > Galina S. Rylkova Associate Professor of Russian Studies Undergraduate Coordinator for Russian Studies Dept. of Germanic and Slavic Studies University of Florida 256 Dauer Hall office hours: T,R - 5th period grylkova at ufl.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From J.Dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Mon Nov 5 11:02:19 2007 From: J.Dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:02:19 +0100 Subject: Evropa znakomitsia s Tolstym Message-ID: Worth reading for the final paragraph alone. It's good to know that L.N. Tolstoy is a бренд [brend]. Meanwhile there is more background (in Italian) at: John Dunn. -----Original Message----- From: Galina Rylkova To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 20:12:55 -0500 Subject: [SEELANGS] Evropa znakomitsia s Tolstym Dear colleagues, below is the link to "Evropa znakomitsia s Tolstym." I hope it will work. http://www.rutv.ru/rnews.html?id=127814&d=0 Galina Rylkova John Dunn Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) University of Glasgow, Scotland Address: Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 40137 Bologna Italy Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From lino59 at AMERITECH.NET Mon Nov 5 13:38:21 2007 From: lino59 at AMERITECH.NET (Deborah Hoffman) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 05:38:21 -0800 Subject: African-American emigration from the US to the Soviet Union In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Also try Soul to Soul by the talk show host Yelena Khanga. I believe she is the daughter of the already mentioned Lili Golden. There is also a (relatively?) extensive entry in Africana: The Encyclopedia of the African and African-American Experience, ed. Henry Louis Gates and Anthony Appiah, under "Russia and the Soviet Union" >Subject: African-American emigration from the US to the Soviet Union > >Dear SEELangentsiia, > >Can anyone point me to sources for the history of African-American emigration from the U.S. to the Soviet Union? Works on the >African-American (immigrant/expat) experience in the Soviet Union would >also be appreciated. I will summarize the responses for the list. >Jeff >Dr. Jeffrey D. Holdeman >Slavic Language Coordinator, Dept. of Slavic Languages and Literatures> >Director, Global Village Living-Learning Center >Indiana University jeffhold at indiana.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hokanson at UOREGON.EDU Mon Nov 5 17:43:17 2007 From: hokanson at UOREGON.EDU (Katya Hokanson) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 09:43:17 -0800 Subject: Pushkin question Message-ID: Dear SEELANGtsy, I have been trying to find the source of the phrase: "Bol'noi, rasslablennyi koloss" in Pushkin's 1831 "Borodinskaia godovshchina." It clearly refers to Russia and is italicized in the original. A variant was "Bol'noi izmuchennyi koloss." Lednicki says it responds to a phrase in the Franco-Polish committee's manifesto calling Russia "cette puissance colossale." That no doubt is correct, but the italicization of the whole suggests to me that it plays off some other fixed phrase or well-known quotation. I include the entire stanza in which the phrase appears for reference. Thanks in advance for any insight, Katya Hokanson University of Oregon Но вы, мутители палат, Легкоязычные витии, Вы, черни бедственный набат, Клеветники, враги России! Что взяли вы?... Еще ли росс Больной, расслабленный колосс? Еще ли северная слава Пустая притча, лживый сон? Скажите: скоро ль нам Варшава Предпишет гордый свой закон? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From frosset at WHEATONMA.EDU Mon Nov 5 18:07:36 2007 From: frosset at WHEATONMA.EDU (Francoise Rosset) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 13:07:36 -0500 Subject: Pushkin question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Dear SEELANGtsy, > >I have been trying to find the source of the phrase: "Bol'noi, >rasslablennyi koloss" in Pushkin's 1831 "Borodinskaia >godovshchina." >It clearly refers to Russia and is italicized in the original. A >variant was "Bol'noi izmuchennyi koloss." Lednicki says it responds >to a phrase in the Franco-Polish committee's manifesto calling >Russia "cette puissance colossale." That no doubt is correct, but >the italicization of the whole suggests to me that it plays off some >other fixed phrase or well-known quotation. I include the entire >stanza in which the phrase appears for reference. This is not the exact answer to your question but may be related. Diderot supposedly called Russia "ce colosse aux pieds d'argile," referring to mid 18th century Russia. I wasn't able to look through Diderot, so I got some confirmation from Polish wikipedia (wikicytaty) at: http://pl.wikiquote.org/wiki/Denis_Diderot The expression "colosse aux pieds d'argile" is obviously older than that --a Biblical reference to Daniel explaning Nabuchodonazar's dream -- hence perhaps "pustaia pritcha, lzhivyj son." But Diderot's quote seems to be one time it refers clearly and identifiably to Russia. And a Diderot quote would be a recent, well-repeated phrase for Pushkin. Maybe this helps some ... -FR -- Francoise Rosset Chair, Russian and Russian Studies Coordinator, German and Russian Wheaton College Norton, Massachusetts 02766 phone: (508) 286-3696 fax #: (508) 286-3640 e-mail: FRosset at wheatonma.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From caron.4 at OSU.EDU Mon Nov 5 22:47:42 2007 From: caron.4 at OSU.EDU (Inna Caron) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 17:47:42 -0500 Subject: Pushkin question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Furthermore, Pushkin's "Borodinskaia godovshchina" together with "Klevetnikam Rossii" was, if memory serves me right, written in offensive-defensive response to Mickiewicz's "Do przyjaciol Moskali." I think it even caused a rift between the two. There is nothing about a colossus per se in Mickiewicz's poem, but Pushkin's reference to the Franco-Polish manifesto in general seems very appropriate. Perhaps the quote "cette puissance colossale" was, in fact, well known to educated Russians, as an official insult hurdled by the insubordinate Poles and their French allies? My two cents... Inna Caron The Ohio State University -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Francoise Rosset Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 1:08 PM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Pushkin question >Dear SEELANGtsy, > >I have been trying to find the source of the phrase: "Bol'noi, >rasslablennyi koloss" in Pushkin's 1831 "Borodinskaia >godovshchina." >It clearly refers to Russia and is italicized in the original. A >variant was "Bol'noi izmuchennyi koloss." Lednicki says it responds >to a phrase in the Franco-Polish committee's manifesto calling >Russia "cette puissance colossale." That no doubt is correct, but >the italicization of the whole suggests to me that it plays off some >other fixed phrase or well-known quotation. I include the entire >stanza in which the phrase appears for reference. This is not the exact answer to your question but may be related. Diderot supposedly called Russia "ce colosse aux pieds d'argile," referring to mid 18th century Russia. I wasn't able to look through Diderot, so I got some confirmation from Polish wikipedia (wikicytaty) at: http://pl.wikiquote.org/wiki/Denis_Diderot The expression "colosse aux pieds d'argile" is obviously older than that --a Biblical reference to Daniel explaning Nabuchodonazar's dream -- hence perhaps "pustaia pritcha, lzhivyj son." But Diderot's quote seems to be one time it refers clearly and identifiably to Russia. And a Diderot quote would be a recent, well-repeated phrase for Pushkin. Maybe this helps some ... -FR -- Francoise Rosset Chair, Russian and Russian Studies Coordinator, German and Russian Wheaton College Norton, Massachusetts 02766 phone: (508) 286-3696 fax #: (508) 286-3640 e-mail: FRosset at wheatonma.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From erika.wolf at OTAGO.AC.NZ Tue Nov 6 04:48:09 2007 From: erika.wolf at OTAGO.AC.NZ (Erika Wolf) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 17:48:09 +1300 Subject: Query: Moscow -- "Port piati morei" Message-ID: Greetings, I am attempting to track the original appearance of the reference to Moscow as "port piati morei." This term has its origins in the 1930s, during the canal building of the OGPU/NKVD. I have found plentiful popular references that attribute it to Stalin -- but that is a common trope in the culture of the period (either credit or blame him with everything). Any suggestions or leads would be most appreciated. Best regards, -- Dr. Erika Wolf Senior Lecturer Art History & Theory Programme Department of History University of Otago P.O. Box 56 Dunedin AOTEAROA/NEW ZEALAND Phone: 64 3 479 9012 FAX: 64 3 479 8429 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dumanis at BUFFALO.EDU Tue Nov 6 06:33:54 2007 From: dumanis at BUFFALO.EDU (Edward M Dumanis) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 01:33:54 -0500 Subject: African-American emigration from the US to the Soviet Union In-Reply-To: <20071104092412.idkvghgn0g8coks0@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: You can learn about the life of Robert Robinson in the USSR from his book "Black on Red." I found it very interesting. Disclaimer: I knew Robert Robinson personally. Sincerely, Edward Dumanis On Sun, 4 Nov 2007, Holdeman, Jeffrey D. wrote: > Dear SEELangentsiia, > > Can anyone point me to sources for the history of African-American emigration > from the U.S. to the Soviet Union? Works on the African-American > (immigrant/expat) experience in the Soviet Union would also be appreciated. > I will summarize the responses for the list. > > Jeff > > Dr. Jeffrey D. Holdeman > Slavic Language Coordinator, > Dept. of Slavic Languages and Literatures > Director, Global Village Living-Learning Center > Indiana University > jeffhold at indiana.edu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From J.Dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Tue Nov 6 09:19:50 2007 From: J.Dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:19:50 +0100 Subject: Query: Moscow -- Message-ID: According to K. Dushenko, Slovar' sovremnennyx citat, Eksmo, M., 2005, p. 390, it originated as a Pravda headline in the edition of 6 January 1935. John Dunn. -----Original Message----- From: Erika Wolf To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 17:48:09 +1300 Subject: [SEELANGS] Query: Moscow -- "Port piati morei" Greetings, I am attempting to track the original appearance of the reference to Moscow as "port piati morei." This term has its origins in the 1930s, during the canal building of the OGPU/NKVD. I have found plentiful popular references that attribute it to Stalin -- but that is a common trope in the culture of the period (either credit or blame him with everything). Any suggestions or leads would be most appreciated. Best regards, -- Dr. Erika Wolf Senior Lecturer Art History & Theory Programme Department of History University of Otago P.O. Box 56 Dunedin AOTEAROA/NEW ZEALAND Phone: 64 3 479 9012 FAX: 64 3 479 8429 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Dunn Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) University of Glasgow, Scotland Address: Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 40137 Bologna Italy Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From nafpaktitism at VIRGINIA.EDU Tue Nov 6 13:31:26 2007 From: nafpaktitism at VIRGINIA.EDU (Margarita Nafpaktitis) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 08:31:26 -0500 Subject: African-American emigration from the US to the Soviet Union In-Reply-To: <20071104092412.idkvghgn0g8coks0@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: There's also the documentary by Kara Lynch, "Black Russians," which, although not exclusively about *Americans* of African descent in the Soviet Union, does include, among other things, an interview with Jim Patterson (who played Liubov Orlova's character's son in "Tsirk"). Patterson talks about his father's emigration from the US to the Soviet Union. Margarita <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Margarita Nafpaktitis Assistant Professor of Slavic Languages & Literatures University of Virginia 109 New Cabell Hall / PO Box 400783 Charlottesville, Virginia 22904-4783 Tel: (434) 924-3548 FAX: (434) 982-2744 http://www.people.virginia.edu/~mn2t/home.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdawes at AMERICANCOUNCILS.ORG Tue Nov 6 15:25:09 2007 From: sdawes at AMERICANCOUNCILS.ORG (Sheila Dawes) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:25:09 -0500 Subject: 2008-09 National Endowment for the Humanities (NEH) Collaborative Grants for Research Message-ID: National Endowment for the Humanities (NEH) Grant for Collaborative Research in Eastern Europe and Eurasia American Councils for International Education: ACTR/ACCELS (American Councils) and the National Council for Eurasian and East European Research (NCEEER) are now accepting applications for the 2008-09 NEH Collaborative Humanities Fellowship. Application deadline: February 15. NEH grants provide up to $40,000 for four to nine months of research in Eastern Europe and Eurasia for U.S. post-doctoral scholars. Research topics are not restricted to regional or area studies, but must involve at least one collaborator from the region and research in the region itself. Applicants must propose to conduct at least four months of full-time research, of which two months must be spent overseas. Scholars who are able to begin their projects between May 2008 and May 2009 are welcome to apply to this year’s competition. Funding is available through American Councils and NCEEER from the National Endowment for the Humanities grant support. American Councils and NCEEER encourage applications from scholars proposing innovative, interdisciplinary approaches to their subjects, and all applications receive equal consideration during the selection process. Program organizers support the work of U.S. humanists from fields that have been underrepresented in scholarship on Eastern Europe and Eurasia in the past, such as American studies, art history, comparative literature, cultural anthropology, musicology, and philosophy, as well as projects that strengthen international academic linkages beyond the traditional regional centers. All awards place a premium on the potential for further valuable humanistic collaboration beyond the specific award period of the NEH fellowship. U.S. citizenship, permanent resident status, or residency in the U.S. for three years before date of application is required. Application Deadline: February 15, 2008 For more information and an application, please contact: (for projects in Eurasia) Outbound Programs American Councils for International Education: ACTR/ACCELS 1776 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W. Suite 700 Washington, D.C. 20036 Phone: (202) 833-7522 Website: www.americancouncils.org Email: outbound at americancouncils.org (for projects in Central and Eastern Europe) Program Officer NEH Collaborative Humanities Fellowship NCEEER 2601 Fourth Ave, Suite 310 Seattle, WA 98121 Phone (206) 441-6433 Website: www.nceeer.org Email: dc at nceeer.org All applications will receive consideration without regard to any non-merit factor such as race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, national origin, marital status, age, political affiliation, or disability. Sheila Dawes Eurasia Study Coordinator Russia and Eurasia Outbound Office American Councils for International Education: ACTR/ACCELS 1776 Massachusetts Ave., NW, Suite 700 Washington, DC 20036 phone: 202-833-7522 fax: 202-833-7523 www.acrussiaabroad.org www.americancouncils.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From newsnet at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Nov 6 17:30:31 2007 From: newsnet at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (NewsNet) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:30:31 -0500 Subject: Call for submissions for the 2008 Summer Programs listing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The January 2008 issue of NewsNet, the newsletter published by the American Association for the Advancement of Slavic Studies (AAASS) will carry an annual listing of summer programs in languages of the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, and other programs related to Slavic Studies. This listing offers colleges, universities, and other institutions who have such programs an excellent opportunity to publicize them among a highly focused readership of area studies specialists. If your department or organization runs a summer program related to Slavic studies, either in the U.S. or abroad, and you would like to see it listed in our January 2007 issue, please send to the NewsNet Editor via e-mail: newsnet at fas.harvard.edu a brief description of your program (approximately 100 words) including a list of languages in which instruction is offered, dates of the program, deadline for registration, and detailed contact information. Please specify in which of the following sections you would like to include your listing: --Language Programs offered in the United States and Canada --Language Programs offered in Russia (including travel study programs run by organizations based in the U.S.) --Language Programs offered in Eastern Europe and the Former Soviet Union except Russia (including travel study programs run by organizations based in the U.S.) --Study Tours and Other Programs (other summer programs related to Slavic Studies but not offering language study, based both in the U.S. or abroad) Although submissions in electronic format are preferred, hard copy sent via fax or regular mail will also be accepted at the following address: Summer Language Program Listing AAASS 8 Story Street Cambridge, MA 02138 Fax: 617-495-0680 Deadline for Submissions: December 1, 2007 We will be pleased to include a brief announcement of your program at no charge, as a service to the membership of the AAASS. In addition, we offer paid display advertising, which many universities and programs choose as a means of achieving greater visibility for their offerings. For more information about ad rates and sizes, please see: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~aaass/advertising/newsnetads.html The 2007 listing was also posted to: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~aaass/additional/summerprograms-2007-01.html If you have any questions about the AAASS, or the listing of Slavic, Eurasian & East European programs, please feel free to contact me. Sincerely, Jolanta M. Davis AAASS Publications Coordinator and NewsNet Editor American Association for the Advancement of Slavic Studies (AAASS) 8 Story Street Cambridge, MA tel.: 617-495-0679 fax: 617-495-0680 Web site: www.fas.harvard.edu/~aaass ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From frosset at WHEATONMA.EDU Tue Nov 6 19:10:10 2007 From: frosset at WHEATONMA.EDU (Francoise Rosset) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:10:10 -0500 Subject: African-American emigration from the US to the Soviet Union In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >You can learn about the life of Robert Robinson in the USSR from his >book "Black on Red." I found it very interesting. I have the book, and it _is_ very worthwhile. What about African-Americans who did not emigrate but spent lots of time there? I'm sure you've already thought of Paul Robeson. He spent much of his life out of the US, working in England, travelled to Russia extensively and was an outspoken defender of Stalin and the USSR. His autobiography _Here I Stand_ was published in England in 1958, long before Robeson changed his feelings about the USSR, IF he ever did. It might have useful materials. By the way, that's him singing one version of "shiroka strana moia rodnaia" on the "Russian Anthems Museum" page: http://www.hymn.ru/index-en.html http://folk.ntnu.no/makarov/temporary_url_20070929kldcg/shiroka-strana-moya-rodnaya-robeson.mp3 -FR -- Francoise Rosset Chair, Russian and Russian Studies Coordinator, German and Russian Wheaton College Norton, Massachusetts 02766 phone: (508) 286-3696 fax #: (508) 286-3640 e-mail: FRosset at wheatonma.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From yfurman at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU Tue Nov 6 21:36:20 2007 From: yfurman at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU (Furman, Yelena) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 13:36:20 -0800 Subject: Translations of Dostoevskii's Besy Message-ID: Dear all, Out of curiosity, does anyone have a preference in terms of recent translations of Besy? Please reply off list: yfurman at humnet.ucla.edu Many thanks in advance, Yelena Furman ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From brifkin at TEMPLE.EDU Wed Nov 7 14:59:08 2007 From: brifkin at TEMPLE.EDU (Benjamin Rifkin) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 09:59:08 -0500 Subject: 90th Anniversary of Nov. 7 Revolution Message-ID: Dear SEELANGers: Among the publications revolving around today¹s anniversary of the Bol¹shevik coup (or ³Great October Socialist Revolution²), I found this article and the accompanying forum (with over 100 comments) interesting; I share the links with you in case you want to share with your students. Of course, as in any internet forum, some of the comments are more to the point than others. http://www.ng.ru/editorial/2007-11-07/2_red.html http://forums.ng.ru/arc/part/www.ng.ru,editorial,2007-11-07,2_red/1.html With best wishes to all, BR -- Benjamin Rifkin Vice Dean for Undergraduate Affairs and Professor of Russian College of Liberal Arts, Temple University 1206 Anderson Hall, 1114 W. Berks St. Philadelphia, PA 19122 USA Voice: (215) 204-1816; Fax: (215) 204-3731 http://www.temple.edu/fgis/rifkin ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ajd31+ at PITT.EDU Wed Nov 7 17:06:18 2007 From: ajd31+ at PITT.EDU (Alyssa DeBlasio) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 12:06:18 -0500 Subject: CFP:Studies in Slavic Cultures VII, "Performance" Message-ID: Studies in Slavic Cultures VII University of Pittsburgh, Department of Slavic Languages and Literatures Call for Papers: PERFORMANCE How can gender, nationality or identity be performed? What separates the performance of an idea from its reality? How do more traditional performances—on stage or in film—reflect cultural tropes? Studies in Slavic Cultures is now accepting submissions for the 2008 issue. The theme of this issue is “Performance,” and we welcome graduate student submissions investigating any aspect of this topic in relation to theatre, film, literature, music, or other areas of contemporary or non-contemporary culture in Russia and Eastern Europe. The deadline for submissions is DECEMBER 1, 2007. Queries and submissions should be sent to Alyssa DeBlasio and Julie Draskoczy sisc at pitt.edu Please visit the following link for detailed submission and formatting guidelines: www.pitt.edu/~slavic/sisc SISC is published by members of the Department of Slavic Languages and Literatures at the University of Pittsburgh, with support from the Center for Russian and East European Studies. The journal consists entirely of analytical articles by graduate students, appears annually, runs to approximately 120 pages, and is devoted to Slavic culture. SISC is an image-friendly publication, and the editors encourage applicants to submit visuals to accompany their work. SISC is indexed in ABSEES. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From lino59 at AMERITECH.NET Wed Nov 7 22:13:56 2007 From: lino59 at AMERITECH.NET (Deborah Hoffman) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 14:13:56 -0800 Subject: 2008 CENTRAL EURASIAN STUDIES CONFERENCE - 22-23 MARCH 2008 Message-ID: From: ACES [mailto:aces at indiana.edu] Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 8:37 AM To: ACES Subject: CONF./CFP - 2008 CENTRAL EURASIAN STUDIES CONFERENCE - 22-23 MARCH 2008 Dear Friends, Please share this announcement with faculty, students, and any other colleagues who may be interested. Thank you very much. THE ASSOCIATION OF CENTRAL EURASIAN STUDENTS (ACES) OF INDIANA UNIVERSITY CALL FOR PAPERS 15TH ANNUAL CENTRAL EURASIAN STUDIES CONFERENCE Saturday 22 March - Sunday 23 April 2008 Submission deadline: 18 January 2008 ACES invites panel and individual paper proposals for the Fifteenth Annual Central Eurasian Studies Conference to be held Saturday, 22 March and Sunday, 23 March 2008 at Indiana University in Bloomington, Indiana. Graduate students, professors, and independent scholars are cordially invited to submit abstracts of papers covering all topics pertaining to Central Eurasian Studies. Central Eurasian Studies is defined for the purposes of this conference as the study of the historical and contemporary Afghan, Balto-Finnic, Hungarian, Mongolic, Persian, Tibetan, Tungusic, and Turkic peoples, languages, cultures, and states. An extensive, but by no means comprehensive, list of topics addressed by this conference may be found at the end of this announcement. Submission Instructions Submission of pre-organized panels is strongly encouraged. Individual papers are also welcome and will be assigned by the Conference Committee to a suitable panel. An honorable distinction of best paper will be awarded. All participants will receive a certificate of participation. Please include the following information on all submissions: 1) Names of all authors (note name of the person presenting the paper); 2) Institutional affiliation and title/position; 3) Contact information, including e-mail address, postal address, and telephone/fax numbers; 4) Curriculum Vitae (1 page); 5) Paper title; 6) An abstract of no more than 300 words, to be included in the Conference Program; 7) Geographic location and thematic panel preference. Thematic panel preferences include, but are not limited to: socio-economic issues, nationalism and identity, natural resources management, music and culture, politics, history, education, and archaeology; and 8) Any audio-visual equipment needs (overhead, slide projector, PowerPoint, etc.) Due to space constraints, abstracts exceeding 300 words cannot be accepted. ACES regrets that it cannot provide any funding to participants. Submission deadline: 18 January 2008. Applicants will be notified of acceptance by 15 February 2008. Submit this information: Via e-mail as an attachment (pdf, .doc or .rtf formats preferred) to: aces at indiana.edu Or via hard copy sent to: The Fifteenth Annual Central Eurasian Studies Conference The Association of Central Eurasian Students ( ACES) Goodbody Hall 157 Indiana University 1011 East Third Street Bloomington, IN 47405-7005 USA Fax: (812) 855-7500 Some covered topics: Azerbaijan, Turkey, Uzbekistan, Finland, Karelia, Estonia, Buryatia, Turkmenistan, Uyghur, Manchu, Kazakh, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyz, Kyrgyz Republic, Xinjiang, Tibet, Mongolia, Manchuria, Hungary, Tatarstan, Volga, Siberia, Tungusic, Tajikistan, Persia, Iran, Evenki, Afghanistan, Ferghana Valley, Caspian Sea, Aral Sea, Central Eurasian steppe an/or oases, Inner Asia, Sufism, Chaghatay, Mari, "Silk Road", Ottoman Empire, Orkhon, politics, nationalism, identity, ethnicity, state-building, ancient and contemporary religion, Islam, Nestorian Christianity, Buddhism, Lamaism, Qing Dynasty, Yuan Dynasty, shamanism, cinema, film, literature, history, linguistics, anthropology, musicology, folklore, archaeology, architecture, art, law - in short, the historical and contemporary Afghan, Balto-Finnic, Hungarian, Mongolic, Persian, Tibetan, Tungusic, and Turkic peoples, languages, cultures, and states. Association of Central Eurasian Students Goodbody Hall 157 Indiana University 1011 East Third Street Bloomington, IN 47405-7005 USA Fax: (812) 855-7500 aces at indiana.edu http://www.indiana.edu/~aces ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kebradley at GMAIL.COM Thu Nov 8 05:00:03 2007 From: kebradley at GMAIL.COM (Kathleen Bradley) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 23:00:03 -0600 Subject: Collective Memory and War&Peace Message-ID: Hi all, I'm interested in researching and writing about the role of the War of 1812 in Russian collective memory and specifically War&Peace as an attempt by Tolstoy to work though and reinterpret this past. I'm having trouble finding sources to help me develop this idea. If anyone has any suggestions or can point me in the right direction, it would be most appreciated. Thank you in advance, Kathleen. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From nem at ONLINE.DEBRYANSK.RU Thu Nov 8 16:01:26 2007 From: nem at ONLINE.DEBRYANSK.RU (Lena) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 19:01:26 +0300 Subject: About Britain In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear everyone! Does anyone by chance know any links where one can read about Culture and sience of England in 13th century? Thank you much, Nikolaenko Elena E-mail: nem at online.debryansk.ru http://www.acr.scilib.debryansk.ru/ruslat1/index.html http://esl-nikolaenkoelena.blogspot.com/ http://students-linguistic-research.blogspot.com/ http://ruslatproject.blogspot.com/ http://argentina-ruslatproject.blogspot.com/ http://cubatuna.blogspot.com http://maximus-russiancartoon.blogspot.com/ http://languagecoursesbgu.blogspot.com/ Tel.: (4832) 575350 Dept. Ofc. tel.: (4832) 666779 Faculty Ofc. tel.: (4832) 666822 http://www.brgu.ru/index.php?id=3 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From colkitto at ROGERS.COM Thu Nov 8 17:28:46 2007 From: colkitto at ROGERS.COM (colkitto@rogers.com) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 12:28:46 -0500 Subject: Collective Memory and War&Peace Message-ID: Lermontov's poem 'Borodino', set to music also, and in the form of a veteran telling a younger relative what the battle was like (moaning about how the youth of the day had gone downhill by comparison to the glory days of his youth) might be a good place to start. Original Message: ----------------- From: Kathleen Bradley kebradley at GMAIL.COM Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 23:00:03 -0600 To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: [SEELANGS] Collective Memory and War&Peace Hi all, I'm interested in researching and writing about the role of the War of 1812 in Russian collective memory and specifically War&Peace as an attempt by Tolstoy to work though and reinterpret this past. I'm having trouble finding sources to help me develop this idea. If anyone has any suggestions or can point me in the right direction, it would be most appreciated. Thank you in advance, Kathleen. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com – What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you? http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From margarita at RENT-A-MIND.COM Thu Nov 8 20:41:35 2007 From: margarita at RENT-A-MIND.COM (Margarita Orlova) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 12:41:35 -0800 Subject: Collective Memory and War&Peace In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The movie "Gusarskaja ballada" and the previous play by Gladkov, used to be staged everywhere. On Wednesday, November 7, 2007, at 09:00 PM, Kathleen Bradley wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm interested in researching and writing about the role of the War of > 1812 > in Russian collective memory and specifically War&Peace as an attempt > by > Tolstoy to work though and reinterpret this past. I'm having trouble > finding > sources to help me develop this idea. If anyone has any suggestions or > can > point me in the right direction, it would be most appreciated. > > Thank you in advance, > Kathleen. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From anne.lounsbery at NYU.EDU Thu Nov 8 21:17:38 2007 From: anne.lounsbery at NYU.EDU (Anne Lounsbery) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 16:17:38 -0500 Subject: CFP: Mid-Atlantic Slavic Conference, March 29, 2008, at NYU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Colleagues: I am writing to invite you to submit a proposal for an individual paper or a complete panel for the Thirty-first Annual Meeting of the Mid-Atlantic Slavic Conference, a regional conference of the AAASS. Proposals should include the paper's title, a very brief abstract, any request for technical support, and the surface and email address of the presenter as well as his/her institutional affiliation. The conference will be held at New York University in New York City on Saturday, March 29, 2007. Panels and papers are welcome on any appropriate scholarly aspect of Slavic and East European Studies. Please send your proposals in both electronic and hard copy form BY DECEMBER 14, 2007. Proposals should be addressed to Professor Mary Theis (theis at kutztown.edu), MASC Executive Secretary, Department of Modern Language Studies, Kutztown University, PO BOX 730, Kutztown, PA 19530. The President of our conference this year is Professor Anne Lounsbery. Her email address is anne.lounsbery at nyu.edu. We would like to remind you and your graduate students that their participation as well as yours is encouraged. A juried award of $200 is made annually for the best graduate paper judged according to these elements in our rubric: clarity of main research question and the response to it, importance to the profession of main research findings, amount of support for their argument, use of primary sources as well as adequate and interesting content, readiness for publication, correct use of English, and readability/style. Please remind your students that they should provide the necessary visuals or materials to make a valid evaluation. Of course, the paper must be presented at our MASC to be considered and will differ somewhat from the written paper. The winning paper is then entered in the national AAASS competition, where the rewards are more significant. A second place prize of $175 is also awarded. Although we are very keen to have the participation of graduate students in our regional conferences, they and other participants should remember that if they absolutely must withdraw a paper from a panel once they have agreed to present it and the panels have been formed, it is their professional responsibility to contact me well in advance of the conference so that I can alert the chair and discussant in a timely fashion and revise the final program accordingly. I look forward to hearing from you soon and seeing each of you at the conference. Sincerely yours, Mary E. Theis Executive Secretary, MASC ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From karmanova-t at MSSU.EDU Thu Nov 8 22:42:04 2007 From: karmanova-t at MSSU.EDU (Tatiana Karmanova) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 16:42:04 -0600 Subject: CARTA Conference, April 4-6, 2008 Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, We invite you to submit proposals for individual papers, complete panels, or roundtables for the 10th Annual Conference of the Central Association of Russian Teachers of America (CARTA). The conference will be held at the Colcord Hotel, Oklahoma City, OK, from April 4 through April 6, 2008. Proposals can address any aspect of Russian language, literature, history, social sciences, culture, methodology and related scholarly topics. The theme of this year's conference is "Giving Voice: Discoveries, Methods, Ideas in the Russian Studies Classroom." Deadline for submissions is January 10, 2008. Please send proposals to Dr. Mara Sukholutskaya, CARTA, East Central University, Department of English and Languages, Ada, OK 74820. For more information contact Mara Sukholutskaya at msukholu at mailclerk.ecok.edu and visit CARTA’s web page at http://www.carta.us/. Sincerely, Dr. Tatiana Karmanova, Director Int'l Language Resource Center Associate Professor of Russian and Spanish Missouri Southern State University 3950 E. Newman Rd. Joplin, MO 64801-1595 E-mail: Karmanova-T at mssu.edu Tel. (417) 625-3109 Fax (417) 625-9585 http://www.mssu.edu/international/ilrc/ From jos23 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Nov 8 22:51:04 2007 From: jos23 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Jose Alaniz) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 14:51:04 -0800 Subject: Aesthenic Syndrome Message-ID: Does anyone know where I might procure a VHS or DVD copy of Kira Muratova's "Astenicheskii Sindrom" with English subtitles? Jose Alaniz UW Seattle ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mp at MIPCO.COM Thu Nov 8 22:59:06 2007 From: mp at MIPCO.COM (mipco) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 16:59:06 -0600 Subject: Review in Moscow ExLibris Message-ID: Moscow literary weekly ExLibris has published a peculiar review on the notorious book "Parapushkinistika 2" http://exlibris.ng.ru/koncep/2007-11-08/8_parapushkin.html -- Alexander Sokolov M.I.P. Company P.O.B. 27484 Minneapolis, Minnesota 55427 USA http://www.mipco.com mp at mipco.com phone:763-544-5915 fax: 612-871-5733 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From trubikhina at AOL.COM Fri Nov 9 01:37:19 2007 From: trubikhina at AOL.COM (trubikhina at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 20:37:19 -0500 Subject: Looking for a roommate for AATSEEL in Chicago Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I'm looking for a roommate/roommates at AATSEEL in Chicago.? If one or two people would like to share a room please contact me off the list.? Thank you, Julia Trubikhina Assistant Professor of Russian Russian Program Coordinator Department of Modern Languages and Literatures Montclair State University Dickson Hall, Room 138 Montclair, NJ 07043 ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pieter.plas at VVSG.BE Fri Nov 9 14:19:31 2007 From: pieter.plas at VVSG.BE (Plas Pieter) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 15:19:31 +0100 Subject: New: Article on discourse and identity in early Croatian ethnography Message-ID: (with apologies for cross-posting) The Journal of Pragmatics has published the following article which may be of interest to list members: Plas, P., "Voicing Folk for the Academy: Interdiscursivity and Collective Identity in a North Dalmatian Ethnography, 1899-1900." Journal of Pragmatics 39/12 (2007): 2244-2272. The abstract and article can be accessed online (through institutional subscription) at http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.pragma.2007.07.002 or via www.sciencedirect.com At the same time, I would like to draw members' attention to the following, already less recent but no less relevant publication: Detrez, Raymond / Plas, Pieter (eds.), Developing Cultural Identity in the Balkans: Convergence vs. Divergence. Bruxelles, Bern, Berlin, Frankfurt am Main, New York, Oxford, Wien: Peter Lang, 2005. More information on this volume can be found at http://www.peterlang.com/Index.cfm?vID=21297&vHR=1&vUR=3&vUUR=4&vLang=E Pieter Plas, Ghent, Belgium ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From newsnet at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Nov 9 18:55:02 2007 From: newsnet at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (NewsNet) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 13:55:02 -0500 Subject: American Association for the Advancement of Slavic Studies (AAASS) Honors Slavic Scholars Message-ID: CAMBRIDGE, MA ­ November 9, 2007 ­ The American Association for the Advancement of Slavic Studies (AAASS), the leading private, nonprofit organization dedicated to the advancement of knowledge about Russia, Central Eurasia, and Eastern and Central Europe, will present its annual awards on November 17, 2007, during the 39th National Convention held at the New Orleans Marriott Hotel in New Orleans, Louisiana. Two scholars receive the Association’s highest honor­the Distinguished Contributions to Slavic Studies Award: Alexander M. Schenker, Professor Emeritus of Slavic Linguistics at Yale University, receives the award for “his important contributions to the field of Polish language and literature, for his further scholarly work in 18th-century cultural history, and for his pioneering role in shaping the development of Slavic linguistics as a scholarly field in the United States.” Richard S. Wortman, James Bryce Professor of History at Columbia University, receives the award “in recognition of his extraordinary scholarly accomplishments and his lifelong dedication to the field of Russian history.” The following scholars receive the Association’s book prizes for their recently published monographs: Alexei Yurchak, Associate Professor of Anthropology at University of California, Berkeley, receives the Wayne S. Vucinich Book Prize awarded for the most important contribution to Russian, Eurasian, and East European studies in any discipline of the humanities or social sciences, for Everything Was Forever Until It Was No More: The Last Soviet Generation, published by Princeton University Press. Charles Gati, Senior Adjunct Professor in Russian and Eurasian Studies, and Fellow at the Foreign Policy Institute, at the The Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced International Studies, Johns Hopkins University, receives the Marshall Shulman Book Prize for an outstanding monograph dealing with the international relations, foreign policy, or foreign-policy decision-making of any of the states of the former Soviet Union or Eastern Europe for Failed Illusions: Moscow, Washington, Budapest, and the 1956 Hungarian Revolt, co-published by Woodrow Wilson Center Press and Stanford University Press in the Cold War International History Project Series. János Kornai, Allie S. Freed Professor of Economics Emeritus at Harvard University and Permanent Fellow Emeritus at Collegium Budapest, receives the Ed A. Hewett Book Prize for an outstanding publication on the political economy of the centrally planned economies of the former Soviet Union and East Central Europe and their transitional successors, for By Force of Thought: Irregular Memoirs of an Intellectual Journey, published by the MIT Press. Pieter M. Judson, Professor of History at Swarthmore College, and Editor of the Austrian History Yearbook, a journal for the History of the Habsburg Monarchy and its successor states, receives the Barbara Jelavich Book Prize for a distinguished monograph on any aspect of Southeast European or Habsburg studies since 1600, or nineteenth- and twentieth-century Ottoman or Russian diplomatic history, for Guardians of the Nation: Activists on the Language Frontiers of Imperial Austria, published by Harvard University Press. Two scholars share the AAASS/Orbis Books Prize for Polish studies for the best book in any discipline on any aspect of Polish affairs this year: Marci Shore, Assistant Professor of History at Yale University, receives the prize for Caviar and Ashes: A Warsaw Generation’s Life and Death in Marxism, 1918-1968, published by Yale University Press. Genevieve Zubrzycki, Assistant Professor of Sociology at the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor, receives the prize for The Crosses of Auschwitz: Nationalism and Religion in Post-Communist Poland, published by the University of Chicago Press. In addition, Emily Baran, PhD candidate in History at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, receives the AAASS Graduate Student Essay Prize for an outstanding essay by a graduate student in Slavic studies for “Communism or Armageddon?: Representation of the Jehovah’s Witnesses in the Soviet Press, 1954-1985” which also won the Southern Conference on Slavic Studies graduate student essay competition. # # # For additional information about the AAASS, the awards presentation, an electronic version of this press release, full text of the citations for the awards, and contact information for prize winners or publishers, please contact: Dmitry Gorenburg, Executive Director of AAASS, tel.: 617-496-9412, e-mail: gorenbur at fas.harvard.edu, or visit: www.aaass.org, and click on "AAASS Prizes." ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kolljack at STANFORD.EDU Sun Nov 11 19:24:40 2007 From: kolljack at STANFORD.EDU (Jack Kollmann) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:24:40 -0800 Subject: AAASS Convention Message-ID: Dear Stanford Colleagues, For those of you planning to attend the AAASS events in New Orleans this year, please come meet the new Director of CREEES, Professor Gabriella Safran, Slavic Languages and Literatures, and the new Associate Director Rob Wessling. Hors d'oeuvres will be served; cash bar. Date: Friday, November 16 Time: 7:30 pm Location: Galerie 4, Marriott Hotel, New Orleans Please pass this message on to Stanford colleagues or alums present in New Orleans. Contact: Rob Wessling Center for Russian, East European, and Eurasian Studies ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From s-hill4 at UIUC.EDU Mon Nov 12 01:05:03 2007 From: s-hill4 at UIUC.EDU (Prof Steven P Hill) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 19:05:03 -0600 Subject: contact info (Shelokhonov) Message-ID: Dear colleagues: Numerous biographies and other entries (many of which relate to Russia and E. Europe) on the "Internet Movie Data Base" (HTTP://US.IMDB .COM) are credited to STEVE SHELOKHONOV. This prolific author is the son of the late actor Petr Shelokhonov (1929-99), and probably was born in the 1950s. Does anyone know how to contact Stepan Petrovich Shelokhonov, who may commute between the former USSR and the USA? (A "deconstructed" E-Mail address, like mine below, would be ideal...) Gratefully, Steven P Hill, University of Illinois. " S (DASH) HILL4 (AT) UIUC (DOT) EDU " ____________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vbelyanin at GMAIL.COM Mon Nov 12 16:47:06 2007 From: vbelyanin at GMAIL.COM (Valery Belyanin) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 19:47:06 +0300 Subject: a song translation (silent night) Message-ID: I have receiverd a lettel I have not met these verses in Russian. ================================================================== from Tiffany Vergato hide details 5:05 pm (5 minutes ago) to psyling at mail.ru date Nov 12, 2007 5:05 PM subject Can you please help with a song translation? Hello, My name is Tiffany Vergato and I am a music teacher at a small school in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA. Every year, we do the song "Silent Night" in a different language, and this year, we want to do it in Russian. I have looked on the internet and found several translations, (all different) and have been studying the pronunciation guides, but I want to get it right. Is there a way that you can give me an accurate translation? I understand that most translations are not word-for-word; I just want it to be authentic. Any help you can give would be greatly appreciated! The lyrics are: Silent night, holy night All is calm, all is bright 'Round yon virgin, mother and child, Holy infant so tender and mild Sleep in heavenly peace Sleep in heavenly peace. ------------------------ Thank you! Tiffany Vergato =================================================================== answering to the list please make a copy to the sender Tiffany Vergato ==================================================================== Yours truly, Валерий Белянин / Valery Belyanin, From mkatz at MIDDLEBURY.EDU Mon Nov 12 16:54:33 2007 From: mkatz at MIDDLEBURY.EDU (Katz, Michael) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:54:33 -0500 Subject: Silent night Message-ID: If you Google "Silent Night in Russian" you will find several versions available on-line. Happy Chanukah. Michael Katz ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Mon Nov 12 16:59:14 2007 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:59:14 -0500 Subject: a song translation (silent night) In-Reply-To: <6e5389890711120847h38e3e69fs247a6ef558b55310@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: /_Не спеша_/ Ночь тиха, ночь свята, В небе свет, красота. Божий Сын пеленами повит, В Вифлеемском вертепе лежит. Спи, Младенец Святой, Спи, Младенец Святой. Ночь тиха, ночь свята, И светла и чиста. Славит радостный Ангелов хор, Далеко оглашая простор Над уснувшей землёй. Над уснувшей землёй. Ночь тиха, ночь свята, Мы поём Христа. И с улыбкой Младенец глядит, Взгляд Его о любви говорит И сияет красой. И сияет красой. For the music, see: http://www.tropinka.orthodoxy.ru/zal/poezija/noch_tih.htm ** Valery Belyanin wrote: >I have receiverd a lettel >I have not met these verses in Russian. >================================================================== >from Tiffany Vergato hide details 5:05 pm (5 minutes >ago) >to psyling at mail.ru date Nov 12, 2007 5:05 PM >subject Can you please help with a song translation? >Hello, >My name is Tiffany Vergato and I am a music teacher at a small school in >Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA. >Every year, we do the song "Silent Night" in a different language, and this >year, we want to do it in Russian. >I have looked on the internet and found several translations, (all >different) and have been studying the pronunciation guides, but I want to >get it right. >Is there a way that you can give me an accurate translation? I understand >that most translations are not word-for-word; I just want it to be >authentic. Any help you can give would be greatly appreciated! >The lyrics are: > >Silent night, holy night >All is calm, all is bright >'Round yon virgin, mother and child, >Holy infant so tender and mild >Sleep in heavenly peace >Sleep in heavenly peace. >------------------------ >Thank you! Tiffany Vergato >=================================================================== >answering to the list please make a copy to the sender >Tiffany Vergato >==================================================================== >Yours truly, Валерий Белянин / Valery Belyanin, > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vbelyanin at GMAIL.COM Mon Nov 12 17:21:19 2007 From: vbelyanin at GMAIL.COM (Valery Belyanin) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:21:19 +0300 Subject: Sugary Texts Message-ID: In the late 80-ies - in the beginning of the end of the epoch of socialism - I wrote about sugary texts as a type of ideological socialist texts. Seems not only in SF time may go backewards. Some of you may be aware of the famous letter to the Presidents of the Russian Federation Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin (October, 16th 2007) : "Russia needs your talent of the statesman, your political wisdom" etc. Is it only typical of socialist discourse? What may be equivalent to this type of texts in American discourse? Have anybody studied such kind of rhetoric? The full text is here: http://www.rg.ru/2007/10/16/pismo.html P.S. I admire Nikita Mikhalkov as the director of great movies. P.P.S. And certainly I am a loyal Russian citizen. -- Yours truly, Валерий Белянин / Valery Belyanin, From peitlovakatarina at TISCALI.IT Mon Nov 12 17:29:50 2007 From: peitlovakatarina at TISCALI.IT (Peitlova Katarina) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 18:29:50 +0100 Subject: silent night Message-ID: There are several texts:in this link http://festival.1september.ru/2005_2006/index.php?numb_artic=310570 and even: Тихая ночь,дивная ночь. Мир земной сон сковал В Вифлееме покой,тишина Лишь не спит там святая чета чудный младенец рожден Best wishes Katarina Peitlova,PhDr. Italy ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From peitlovakatarina at TISCALI.IT Mon Nov 12 17:41:42 2007 From: peitlovakatarina at TISCALI.IT (Peitlova Katarina) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 18:41:42 +0100 Subject: тихая ночь Message-ID: Тихая ночь,святая ночь. Ясный свет разлит кругом. Все заботы и тревоги уходят прочь. Мать и дитя спят божественным сном. Тихая ночь,святая чочь. Пастух ярким светом пленен, Что озаряет все земли окрестные. Наш спаситель рожден. Поют Аллилуйя силы небесные . Тихая ночь,святая ночь. Божий сын - любви чистый свет. Яркие света лучи твой лик озаряют, И вместе с зарею рассвет Силы небесные предвещает. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From J.Dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Mon Nov 12 17:42:56 2007 From: J.Dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 18:42:56 +0100 Subject: Sugary Texts Message-ID: I can't speak for America, but it occurs to me that similarly sentiments were sometimes expressed in the 18th century, e.g. in book dedications and the text of God Save the Queen (King). In general even those recent politicians (such as Margaret Thatcher or Tony Blair) who inspired unwonted degrees of admiration among their followers were unlikely to be addressed in similar terms, though, having said that, I thought I discerned some rudimentary elements of 'sugary texts' in some of the more sycophantic comments about Tony Blair. John Dunn. -----Original Message----- From: Valery Belyanin To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:21:19 +0300 Subject: [SEELANGS] Sugary Texts In the late 80-ies - in the beginning of the end of the epoch of socialism - I wrote about sugary texts as a type of ideological socialist texts. Seems not only in SF time may go backewards. Some of you may be aware of the famous letter to the Presidents of the Russian Federation Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin (October, 16th 2007) : "Russia needs your talent of the statesman, your political wisdom" etc. Is it only typical of socialist discourse? What may be equivalent to this type of texts in American discourse? Have anybody studied such kind of rhetoric? The full text is here: http://www.rg.ru/2007/10/16/pismo.html P.S. I admire Nikita Mikhalkov as the director of great movies. P.P.S. And certainly I am a loyal Russian citizen. -- Yours truly, Валерий Белянин / Valery Belyanin, John Dunn Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) University of Glasgow, Scotland Address: Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 40137 Bologna Italy Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From lloannna at GMAIL.COM Mon Nov 12 19:34:56 2007 From: lloannna at GMAIL.COM (Sarah Marie Parker-Allen) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:34:56 -0500 Subject: silent night In-Reply-To: <002101c82551$a19367f0$04acdf54@amministrazione> Message-ID: I have this one, translated by "Джона Ф. Янга (1820-1885 гг.)" Тихая ночь! Дивная ночь! Под звездой тишь, покой. Деву свет окружает златой, рядом с нею Младенец Святой спит Божественым сном, спит Божественым сном. Вдруг пастухов трепет объял: с Неба свет засиял "Слава, слава!" - звучит в Небесах. "Аллелуйя!" - поют голоса. Нам Спаситель рождён! Нам Спаситель рождён! Тихая ночь... Ты, Божий Сын, свыше нам послан был. Лучезарен Твой облик Святой. Свет любви нам приносишь с Собой Ты Своим Рождеством, Ты Своим Рождеством! Sarah Marie Parker-Allen lloannna at gmail.com http://lloannna.blogspot.com You can protect your liberties in this world only by protecting the other man's freedom. You can be free only if I am free. - Clarence Darrow ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Mon Nov 12 20:10:02 2007 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:10:02 -0500 Subject: Sugary Texts In-Reply-To: <6e5389890711120921j75300c29v748780f7953ec374@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 12, 2007, at 12:21 PM, Valery Belyanin wrote: > "Russia needs your talent of the statesman, your political wisdom" > etc. This is more or less "Drakon" by Evgenij Shwarz verbatim. > http://www.rg.ru/2007/10/16/pismo.html Fortunately this letter "ot vsex" had a reply from those who did not agree. http://www.newsru.com/russia/25oct2007/letters.html text of the letter: http://sps.ru/?id=223630 Alina Israeli LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW Washington DC. 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kbtrans at COX.NET Mon Nov 12 20:47:30 2007 From: kbtrans at COX.NET (Kim Braithwaite) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 12:47:30 -0800 Subject: silent night Message-ID: John F. Young is credited with translating the original German text of Stille Nacht into the English version that we use. I don't know who did the Russian version provided by Parker-Allen, but it is included in the latest Russian edition of the Mormon Hymn Book. Mr Kim Braithwaite, Translator "Good is better than evil, because it's nicer" - Mammy Yokum (Al Capp) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Marie Parker-Allen" To: Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] silent night >I have this one, translated by "Джона Ф. Янга (1820-1885 гг.)" > > Тихая ночь! Дивная ночь! > Под звездой тишь, покой. > Деву свет окружает златой, > рядом с нею Младенец Святой > спит Божественым сном, > спит Божественым сном. > > Вдруг пастухов трепет объял: > с Неба свет засиял > "Слава, слава!" - звучит в Небесах. > "Аллелуйя!" - поют голоса. > Нам Спаситель рождён! > Нам Спаситель рождён! > > Тихая ночь... Ты, Божий Сын, > свыше нам послан был. > Лучезарен Твой облик Святой. > Свет любви нам приносишь с Собой > Ты Своим Рождеством, > Ты Своим Рождеством! > > Sarah Marie Parker-Allen > lloannna at gmail.com > http://lloannna.blogspot.com > > You can protect your liberties in this world only by protecting the other > man's freedom. You can be free only if I am free. - Clarence Darrow > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From monniern at MISSOURI.EDU Mon Nov 12 23:06:38 2007 From: monniern at MISSOURI.EDU (Nicole Monnier) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:06:38 -0600 Subject: English translation of Sumarokov's Gamlet? Message-ID: Dear SEELANGSsty! Does anyone know off the top of his/her head whether there exists an English translation of Sumarokov's Gamlet? I struggle with a dim memory of such an English text, but can't for the life of me recover any bibliographic material attached to it (the dim memory). Curiously, Nicole **************************** Dr. Nicole Monnier Assistant Professor of Instruction Director of Undergraduate Studies (Russian) German & Russian Studies 428A GCB University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65211 phone: 573.882.3370 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mkatz at MIDDLEBURY.EDU Mon Nov 12 23:53:11 2007 From: mkatz at MIDDLEBURY.EDU (Katz, Michael) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 18:53:11 -0500 Subject: English translation of Sumarokov's Gamlet? Message-ID: Selected Tragedies of A. P. Sumarokov, trans. Richard and Raymond Fortune, intr. by John Fizer (Evanston: Northwestern U P, 1970), 87-134. Michael Katz Middlebury College -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list on behalf of Nicole Monnier Sent: Mon 11/12/2007 6:06 PM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: [SEELANGS] English translation of Sumarokov's Gamlet? Dear SEELANGSsty! Does anyone know off the top of his/her head whether there exists an English translation of Sumarokov's Gamlet? I struggle with a dim memory of such an English text, but can't for the life of me recover any bibliographic material attached to it (the dim memory). Curiously, Nicole **************************** Dr. Nicole Monnier Assistant Professor of Instruction Director of Undergraduate Studies (Russian) German & Russian Studies 428A GCB University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65211 phone: 573.882.3370 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jwilson at SRAS.ORG Tue Nov 13 05:20:05 2007 From: jwilson at SRAS.ORG (Josh Wilson) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:20:05 +0300 Subject: English translation of Sumarokov's Gamlet? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nicole There does indeed - it was published in 1970 in a book called _Selected Tragedies of A. P. Sumarokov_ Transalaters were Richard and Raymond Fortune. Published by Northwestern University Press. As I happen to have the to-be-or-not-to-be speech in my files, I'll include that below. Best, Josh Wilson Asst. Director The School of Russian and Asian Studies Editor-in-Chief Vestnik, The Journal of Russian and Asian Studies www.sras.org jwilson at sras.org To Be or Not to Be, by Sumarokov What am I to do now? Where am I to begin? Is it an easy thing to cast one's love aside? Father, Ophelia, of all names to me the dearest, You were my happiness in other days now vanished. Now you torment me so, now you are hard to bear; In front of one of you I'm bound to stand in guilt Although I love you both, I must offend one of you. O floodgates of my eyes, restrain the tears from flowing! I do not seem to be equipped to face my task, And there is no refuge for my poor distracted mind. (Reaches for sword) In you alone, my sword can I find consolation, And I entrust to heav'n a just and righteous vengeance. But wait., the matter's grave that lies ahead today, My body and my soul this very hour will part. To open up death's door and finish with my suff'ring, Or in this world of ours to try to bear it longer? In death I'll fall asleep, asleep Ill slumber on, But what will be the dreams this restless night will bring? To die, to find one's peace in death would seem so pleasant, But what may follow that sweet sleep is unknown to us. We know the promises of our most gracious God. There's hope, the spirit's strong, but how the flesh is weak! O death, O hour of woe, O dreaded final minute, O agony supreme, of all our woes the greatest! Even to think of it is torment in itself, Is fear unspeakable even to bravest hearts! The very name alone does cause our flesh to tremble, And from our safe retreat returns us to confusion. But if our dreary life on earth had not an end, Who would not long to end it with this peaceful sleep? For who could long endure the pain of persecution, Illnesses, poverty, attacks of all the stronger, Wrongs and injustices of judges' lawlessness, Anger, offenses, theft, betrayal of best friends, And poison-hearted knaves who flatter those in power? If we should just live on and on with grief forever, Then death would be a thing most needful and desired. But even so, alas, it fills our hearts with fear. How frail is man before the majesty of nature! We fear death, yet this fear will pass by in an instant. If I should die, what would my people say of me, Under their heavy yoke in this unhappy land? Their songs would tell how love did vanquish Hamlet's honor, How Hamlet's manliness became love's greatest trophy. How I gave up my life without a glorious stand, How from a coward's wounds I caused my blood to flow, Blood that was meant to flow in honor for my people. O peace of mind, alas, whom did you think to flatter? I must not think of death when I hear duty call, When truth makes itself known and lights my conscience path. My mother did not yield to thoughts of desperation, But soon the king will work on her his machinations. She must be warned in time of Claudius' bloody plot. The tyrant's blood may flow, the innocent's must not. -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Nicole Monnier Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:07 AM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: [SEELANGS] English translation of Sumarokov's Gamlet? Dear SEELANGSsty! Does anyone know off the top of his/her head whether there exists an English translation of Sumarokov's Gamlet? I struggle with a dim memory of such an English text, but can't for the life of me recover any bibliographic material attached to it (the dim memory). Curiously, Nicole **************************** Dr. Nicole Monnier Assistant Professor of Instruction Director of Undergraduate Studies (Russian) German & Russian Studies 428A GCB University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65211 phone: 573.882.3370 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From tol at INL.NL Tue Nov 13 09:03:28 2007 From: tol at INL.NL (Sijmen Tol) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 03:03:28 -0600 Subject: BLonline on-line again Message-ID: Dear SEELANGovcy, Due to circumstances completely beyond our control, BLonline (the electronic version of the Linguistic Bibliography/Bibliographie linguistique) was off line for 12 days. We are very happy to announce that the problems are solved. Our database with over 227,000 references to linguistic publications from 1993 to the present is available again to be searched by linguists all over the world. No subscription needed, access is free. The editors, Sijmen Tol & Hella Olbertz ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fehrmann at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Tue Nov 13 10:35:19 2007 From: fehrmann at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (Dorothee Fehrmann) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 11:35:19 +0100 Subject: FDSL-7 Program Message-ID: Dear colleagues, We are pleased to inform you that the program of the 7th European Conference on Formal Description of Slavic Languages (FDSL-7) to be held at the University of Leipzig, Germany, 30 November - 2 December 2007, is now available at http://www.uni-leipzig.de/~jungslav/fdsl/fdsl7/fdsl7program.html For further information about the conference see the Conference Homepage at http://www.uni-leipzig.de/~jungslav/fdsl/fdsl7/fdsl7main.html Organizing Committee Gerhild Zybatow, Uwe Junghanns, Denisa Lenertová, Dorothee Fehrmann, Petr Biskup Institut für Slavistik Universität Leipzig Beethovenstr. 15 04107 Leipzig Germany ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kyst at HUM.KU.DK Tue Nov 13 11:45:13 2007 From: kyst at HUM.KU.DK (Jon Kyst) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:45:13 +0100 Subject: DIS Copenhagen and Academic Travel Copenhagen at AAASS Message-ID: Dear colleagues, At AAASS I will be representing the Danish study abroad program DIS as well as Academic Travel, copenhagen, which specializes in learning-based study tours to Russia. Affiliated with the University of Copenhagen, DIS (Danish Institute of Study Abroad) is one of Europe's oldest (founded 1959) and largest study abroad programs, taking in 1500+ mainly US college seniors and juniors for credit-providing courses taught only in English. With three Russian studies courses (society, history and literature) and several study tours every semester to Russia, which is just a 2 hour flight from Copenhagen, DIS is the obvious study abroad choice for students with an interest in Russia, but without the commitment it takes to study Russian language at a high level and studying abroad in Russia. See www.dis.dk for more info The study tours to Russia DIS offers are organized with Academic Travel in Copenhagen. Academic Travel organizes study tours in Russia from its base in Copenhagen and branches in St. Petersburg and Moscow. Study tours focus on learning and are developed in close cooperation with professors for classes. I look forwards to meeting colleagues at AAASS and tell more about these opportunities. To organize an appointment, write to me directly on kyst at hum.ku.dk Jon Kyst Lecturer, PhD University of Copenhagen and DIS Copenhagen ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From nem at ONLINE.DEBRYANSK.RU Tue Nov 13 14:46:14 2007 From: nem at ONLINE.DEBRYANSK.RU (Lena) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:46:14 +0300 Subject: Ratushinskaya's poems translated into English In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear everyone! Could you please help me with finding out which of Ratushinskaya's poems were translated into English. Thank you much. Sincerely, Nikolaenko Elena ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sforres1 at SWARTHMORE.EDU Tue Nov 13 15:14:58 2007 From: sforres1 at SWARTHMORE.EDU (Sibelan E S Forrester) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:14:58 -0500 Subject: Ignatova books Message-ID: Dear colleagues, As in the past, I will have a few copies of Elena Ignatova's book STIKHOTVORENIJA RAZNYX LET (Jerusalem, 2005) available for sale at the AAASS conference in New Orleans. If you are interested, please send e-mail or contact me at the conference itself. With best wishes, Sibelan Sibelan Forrester Russian/Modern Languages and Literatures Swarthmore College ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From nafpaktitism at VIRGINIA.EDU Tue Nov 13 17:16:51 2007 From: nafpaktitism at VIRGINIA.EDU (Margarita Nafpaktitis) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:16:51 -0500 Subject: CFP: Southern Conference on Slavic Studies (27-29 March 2008) Message-ID: Please contact Sharon Kowalsky (sharon_kowalsky at tamu-commerce.edu) for additional details. CALL FOR PAPERS 46th Annual Meeting Southern Conference on Slavic Studies Atlanta, GA March 27-29, 2008 DEADLINE FOR SUBMISSION OF PROPOSALS: January 15 The 46th annual meeting of the Southern Conference on Slavic Studies (SCSS) will take place in Atlanta, GA on March 27-29, 2008. The purpose of SCSS is to promote scholarship, education, and in all other ways to advance scholarly interest in Russian, Soviet, and East European studies in the Southern region of the United States and nationwide. The program committee is accepting panel and paper proposals until January 15. Whole panel proposals (chair, three papers, discussant) are preferred, but proposals for individual papers are also welcome. Whole panel proposals should include the titles of each individual paper as well as a proposed title for the panel itself and identifying information on the discussant and chair. Proposals for individual papers should include a brief (one paragraph) abstract to guide the program committee in the assembly of panels. Email (preferably) your proposal to Sharon Kowalsky at sharon_kowalsky at tamu-commerce.edu or you can also send it by conventional post to: Dr. Sharon Kowalsky Department of History Texas A&M University-Commerce Box 3011 Commerce, TX 75429 This year's conference is hosted by Emory University and will be held at the Emory Conference Center on the Emory University Campus, 15 miles from Hartsfield International Airport, 8 miles from downtown and 3 miles from Buckhead entertainment district. -- <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Margarita Nafpaktitis Assistant Professor of Slavic Languages & Literatures University of Virginia 109 New Cabell Hall / PO Box 400783 Charlottesville, Virginia 22904-4783 Tel: (434) 924-3548 FAX: (434) 982-2744 http://www.people.virginia.edu/~mn2t/home.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pankova+ at PITT.EDU Tue Nov 13 17:51:50 2007 From: pankova+ at PITT.EDU (pankova+ at PITT.EDU) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:51:50 -0500 Subject: Share a room in Chicago? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all: Is anybody still looking for a room-mate at the AATSEEL conference in Chicago? Please respond to pankova at pitt.edu. Thank you, Lenka ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From margarita at RENT-A-MIND.COM Tue Nov 13 21:02:08 2007 From: margarita at RENT-A-MIND.COM (Margarita Orlova) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 13:02:08 -0800 Subject: BLonline on-line again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Isn't the access to BLonline restricted severely, anyway? Thanks Margarita On Tuesday, November 13, 2007, at 01:03 AM, Sijmen Tol wrote: > Dear SEELANGovcy, > > Due to circumstances completely beyond our control, BLonline (the > electronic > version of the Linguistic Bibliography/Bibliographie linguistique) was > off line for > 12 days. We are very happy to announce that the problems are solved. > Our > database with over 227,000 references to linguistic publications from > 1993 to > the present is available again to be searched by linguists all over > the world. No > subscription needed, access is free. > > The editors, > Sijmen Tol & Hella Olbertz > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ewb2 at CORNELL.EDU Tue Nov 13 21:24:40 2007 From: ewb2 at CORNELL.EDU (Wayles Browne) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:24:40 -0500 Subject: BLonline on-line again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Surprised to see someone say that.... I just went to http://www.blonline.nl/ and could search without any further formalities. My thanks to the compilers and the Instituut voor Nederlandse Lexicologie which hosts their site. >Isn't the access to BLonline restricted severely, anyway? > >Thanks > >Margarita > >On Tuesday, November 13, 2007, at 01:03 AM, Sijmen Tol wrote: > >>Dear SEELANGovcy, >> >>...BLonline (the electronic >>version of the Linguistic Bibliography/Bibliographie linguistique) >>... is available again to be searched by linguists all over the >>world. No >>subscription needed, access is free. >> >>The editors, >>Sijmen Tol & Hella Olbertz -- Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics Department of Linguistics Morrill Hall 220, Cornell University Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A. tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h) fax 607-255-2044 (write FOR W. BROWNE) e-mail ewb2 at cornell.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pstock at BRANDEIS.EDU Tue Nov 13 21:52:20 2007 From: pstock at BRANDEIS.EDU (David Powelstock) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:52:20 -0500 Subject: Sarajevo Marlboro Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I am teaching Miljenko Jergovic's Sarajevo Marlboro and have encountered a sentence I cannot decipher in the translation. It occurs at the end of the story "Mr. Ivo." I simply can't parse it. I wonder whether it is an editing or translation hiccup. If anyone either can help me understand the English or provide a retranslation from the original, I would be very grateful. Here is the final paragraph in full: "Every day when I drag the water up the hill I remember Christ on his way to Calvary. I wonder if Calvary was uphill all the way, or if it was perhaps uphill only here and there, with flat or even downhill stretches in between, the way my mother used to say it was about a Muslim woman--giving her something else to worry about?" I assure you that this is exactly how it appears (minus the quotation marks) in my edition of the English. I'm losing sleep over this! Any help would be much appreciated. Best, David David Powelstock Asst. Prof. of Russian & East European Literatures Undergraduate Advising Head, Russian Language and Literature Chair, Program in Russian & East European Studies Brandeis University GREA, MS 024 Waltham, MA 02454-9110 781.736.3347 (Office) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From margarita at RENT-A-MIND.COM Tue Nov 13 22:23:39 2007 From: margarita at RENT-A-MIND.COM (Margarita Orlova) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:23:39 -0800 Subject: BLonline on-line again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you so much for providing the link to the actual site. I have searched your site with Google engine [with keywords: ] and found this restricted DB with all sorts of excuses about why it is restricted: https://auth.lib.unc.edu/ezproxy_auth.php?url=http://www.blonline.nl/ http://eresources.lib.unc.edu/eid/list.php?letter=L#lingbibon Thanks! Margarita On Tuesday, November 13, 2007, at 01:24 PM, Wayles Browne wrote: > Surprised to see someone say that.... I just went to > http://www.blonline.nl/ > and could search without any further formalities. My thanks to the > compilers and the Instituut voor Nederlandse Lexicologie which hosts > their site. > >> Isn't the access to BLonline restricted severely, anyway? >> >> Thanks >> >> Margarita >> >> On Tuesday, November 13, 2007, at 01:03 AM, Sijmen Tol wrote: >> >>> Dear SEELANGovcy, >>> >>> ...BLonline (the electronic >>> version of the Linguistic Bibliography/Bibliographie linguistique) >>> ... is available again to be searched by linguists all over the >>> world. No >>> subscription needed, access is free. >>> >>> The editors, >>> Sijmen Tol & Hella Olbertz > > -- > > Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics > Morrill Hall 220, Cornell University > Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A. > > tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h) > fax 607-255-2044 (write FOR W. BROWNE) > e-mail ewb2 at cornell.edu > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ewb2 at CORNELL.EDU Tue Nov 13 22:24:58 2007 From: ewb2 at CORNELL.EDU (Wayles Browne) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:24:58 -0500 Subject: Sarajevo Marlboro In-Reply-To: <000301c8263f$77988ae0$120d4081@brandeis.edu> Message-ID: I looked at the original and I can see that the punctuation has gone astray in the translation, as have a few significant content-words. It should say: "Every day when I drag the water up the hill I remember Christ and Calvary. I wonder if it is possible that Calvary was uphill all the way, or if it was uphill a bit and downhill a bit," said my mother to a Muslim woman--giving her that additional burden to worry about. (- Svaki dan kada vuc^em vodu gore sjetim se Krista i Kalvarije. Mislim je li moguc'e da je Kalvarija stalno uzbrdo, ili ima malo uzbrdo, malo nizbrdo - govorila je moja majka jednoj Muslimanki, natovarivs^i joj i tu brigu na vrat.) From: Miljenko Jergovic', Sarajevski Marlboro. (series: Biblioteka Jutarnjeg lista XX. STOLJEC'E, 17.) Zagreb: Jutarnji list 2004 (page 30). At 4:52 PM -0500 11/13/07, David Powelstock wrote: >Dear colleagues, > >I am teaching Miljenko Jergovic's Sarajevo Marlboro and have >encountered a sentence I cannot decipher in the translation. It >occurs at the end of the story "Mr. Ivo." I simply can't parse it. I >wonder whether it is an editing or translation hiccup. If anyone >either can help me understand the English or provide a retranslation >from the original, I would be very grateful. Here is the final >paragraph in full: > >"Every day when I drag the water up the hill I remember Christ on >his way to Calvary. I wonder if Calvary was uphill all the way, or >if it was perhaps uphill only here and there, with flat or even >downhill stretches in between, the way my mother used to say it was >about a Muslim woman--giving her something else to worry about?" > >I assure you that this is exactly how it appears (minus the >quotation marks) in my edition of the English. I'm losing sleep over >this! Any help would be much appreciated. > >Best, >David > >David Powelstock >Asst. Prof. of Russian & East European Literatures >Undergraduate Advising Head, Russian Language and Literature >Chair, Program in Russian & East European Studies >Brandeis University >GREA, MS 024 >Waltham, MA 02454-9110 >781.736.3347 (Office) > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics Department of Linguistics Morrill Hall 220, Cornell University Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A. tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h) fax 607-255-2044 (write FOR W. BROWNE) e-mail ewb2 at cornell.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jschill at AMERICAN.EDU Wed Nov 14 02:08:16 2007 From: jschill at AMERICAN.EDU (John Schillinger) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 21:08:16 -0500 Subject: CCPCR Census of College/University level Russian, other Slavic and EE language programs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear SEELANGERS- The CCPCR website is back in operation following a computer crash Oct. 8. We are now able to process responses and upload to the website again. Since many programs remain to be heard from following the first request in September we're renewing our plea for your 1st and 2nd year enrollments in Russian while the numbers are fresh in mind. In addition to Russian enrollment data, in response to an initiative from AATSEEL, we will also list OTHER SLAVIC and EE LANGUAGES taught at your institution if you or a colleague will provide that information. 46 institutions have responded thus far, and their data is now available on the website (just click on the website address below to get to the home page and the College/University enrollment data). Along with your Russian enrollments, we will list those additional languages; and if you have the data, the enrollments at the first and 2nd year levels in those languages. If you don't have access to the enrollment numbers, but can provide a list of the Slavic and EE languages taught at the 1st and 2nd year levels, please do just that. It is hoped that a national overview of the extent of our offerings in Slavic and EE languages, or at least a sense of the extent, will emerge from your responses to give the profession a better idea of the distribution and depth of such courses across the country. Please send your information to our e-mail address: ccpcr at american.edu. Many thanks!! Prof. John Schillinger American University, Washington D.C. Chair, CCPCR Committee on College and Pre-College Russian e-mail: ccpcr at american.edu website: www.american.edu/research/CCPCR/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pstock at BRANDEIS.EDU Wed Nov 14 02:08:41 2007 From: pstock at BRANDEIS.EDU (David Powelstock) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 21:08:41 -0500 Subject: Sarajevo Marlboro In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wayles, thank you so much! One especially puzzling bit was the final question mark, which made no sense. One of my students (jokingly?) suggested that the translator or editor had put the question mark to come back to later, but then somehow missed. Now that I see the correct translation and the original, it seems highly plausible! I thank you, and my students thank you! Best, David -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wayles Browne Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 5:25 PM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Sarajevo Marlboro Importance: High I looked at the original and I can see that the punctuation has gone astray in the translation, as have a few significant content-words. It should say: "Every day when I drag the water up the hill I remember Christ and Calvary. I wonder if it is possible that Calvary was uphill all the way, or if it was uphill a bit and downhill a bit," said my mother to a Muslim woman--giving her that additional burden to worry about. (- Svaki dan kada vuc^em vodu gore sjetim se Krista i Kalvarije. Mislim je li moguc'e da je Kalvarija stalno uzbrdo, ili ima malo uzbrdo, malo nizbrdo - govorila je moja majka jednoj Muslimanki, natovarivs^i joj i tu brigu na vrat.) From: Miljenko Jergovic', Sarajevski Marlboro. (series: Biblioteka Jutarnjeg lista XX. STOLJEC'E, 17.) Zagreb: Jutarnji list 2004 (page 30). At 4:52 PM -0500 11/13/07, David Powelstock wrote: >Dear colleagues, > >I am teaching Miljenko Jergovic's Sarajevo Marlboro and have >encountered a sentence I cannot decipher in the translation. It occurs >at the end of the story "Mr. Ivo." I simply can't parse it. I wonder >whether it is an editing or translation hiccup. If anyone either can >help me understand the English or provide a retranslation from the >original, I would be very grateful. Here is the final paragraph in >full: > >"Every day when I drag the water up the hill I remember Christ on his >way to Calvary. I wonder if Calvary was uphill all the way, or if it >was perhaps uphill only here and there, with flat or even downhill >stretches in between, the way my mother used to say it was about a >Muslim woman--giving her something else to worry about?" > >I assure you that this is exactly how it appears (minus the quotation >marks) in my edition of the English. I'm losing sleep over this! Any >help would be much appreciated. > >Best, >David > >David Powelstock >Asst. Prof. of Russian & East European Literatures Undergraduate >Advising Head, Russian Language and Literature Chair, Program in >Russian & East European Studies Brandeis University GREA, MS 024 >Waltham, MA 02454-9110 >781.736.3347 (Office) > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >-- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >-- -- Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics Department of Linguistics Morrill Hall 220, Cornell University Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A. tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h) fax 607-255-2044 (write FOR W. BROWNE) e-mail ewb2 at cornell.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From gillespie.20 at ND.EDU Wed Nov 14 04:07:30 2007 From: gillespie.20 at ND.EDU (Alyssa Gillespie) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 23:07:30 -0500 Subject: Open-Rank Search: Religion and Literature In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The College of Arts and Letters at the University of Notre Dame announces a tenure-track or tenured position for a scholar-teacher whose work explores religion and literature. The position is open with regard to discipline, and the candidate could be housed in English, Theology, or any of the College’s several language and literature departments. Candidates should send a letter of application and a CV to Religion and Literature Search Committee, 100 O’Shaughnessy Hall, University of Notre Dame, Notre Dame, IN 46556. Review of applications will begin on November 1, 2007. The preferred candidate will be sympathetic to and supportive of the mission of the University of Notre Dame, which seeks a distinctive educational and scholarly excellence founded on its Catholic identity. The University is an affirmative action, equal opportunity employer with a strong commitment to fostering a culturally diverse atmosphere for faculty, staff, and students. Women and members of minority groups are especially encouraged to apply. The University particularly seeks candidates who demonstrate excellence in both teaching and research. Information about the College of Arts and Letters is available at . ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mlg at KU.EDU Wed Nov 14 10:45:43 2007 From: mlg at KU.EDU (Greenberg, Marc L) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 04:45:43 -0600 Subject: University of Kansas Slavic graduate program Message-ID: [Sent on behalf of Prof. Edith W. Clowes:] We in the Slavic Department at the University of Kansas in Lawrence, KS, are looking for a few potentially excellent graduate students who would like to have a lot of personal faculty attention to develop their passions in our areas of expertise in Slavic literatures and linguistics (see our faculty profiles at http://www.ku.edu/~slavic/faculty.shtml). Our program offers competitive funding packages for excellent candidates whose interests fit well with our department's emphases. Visit us. We know you will like it here. Please contact Prof. Edith W. Clowes, e-mail: eclowes at ku.edu or tel. 785-864-2359. Website: http://www.ku.edu/~slavic ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From publikationsreferat at OSTEUROPA.UNI-BREMEN.DE Wed Nov 14 12:53:52 2007 From: publikationsreferat at OSTEUROPA.UNI-BREMEN.DE (Publikationsreferat (Matthias Neumann)) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:53:52 +0100 Subject: TOC: kultura 3/2007 English-language edition Message-ID: The Research Centre for East European Studies at the University of Bremen (Forschungsstelle Osteuropa an der Universitaet Bremen) announces the publication of the newest issue of kultura. Subject and contents: WHEN THE DOUBLE-HEADED EAGLE PUMPS IRON: SPORT AND SOCIETY IN RUSSIA Guest Editors: Sandra Budy und Manfred Zeller (Hamburg) - editorial Sport in Contemporary Russia - the Expression of a Way of Living 2 - analysis Sport and Lifestyle 3 Olga Chepurnaya (St. Petersburg) - portrait Fitness, Russian style 9 Tim B. Peters (Moscow) - analysis To the Away Game by Dog Sleigh - Football Fans in Russia 11 Manfred Zeller (Hamburg) - video 'Contact' - a Video Project by Dmitry Vilensky (St. Petersburg) 16 The Internet URL for this issue is: In order to subscribe to kultura, please send an email with the subject line 'subscribe kultura english' to +++++++++++++++ Best regards Publikationsreferat / Publications Dept. Forschungsstelle Osteuropa / Research Centre for East European Studies Klagenfurter Str. 3 28359 Bremen Germany publikationsreferat at osteuropa.uni-bremen.de www.forschungsstelle.uni-bremen.de www.russlandanalysen.de www.ukraine-analysen.de ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From gillespie.20 at ND.EDU Wed Nov 14 13:18:26 2007 From: gillespie.20 at ND.EDU (Alyssa Gillespie) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 08:18:26 -0500 Subject: Open-Rank Search: Religion and Literature (resending) Message-ID: I am resending this announcement, as it was botched in transmission the first time around. The College of Arts and Letters at the University of Notre Dame announces a tenure-track or tenured position for a scholar-teacher whose work explores religion and literature. The position is open with regard to discipline, and the candidate could be housed in English, Theology, or any of the College's several language and literature departments. Candidates should send a letter of application and a CV to Religion and Literature Search Committee, 100 O'Shaughnessy Hall, University of Notre Dame, Notre Dame, IN 46556. Review of applications will begin on November 1, 2007. The preferred candidate will be sympathetic to and supportive of the mission of the University of Notre Dame, which seeks a distinctive educational and scholarly excellence founded on its Catholic identity. The University is an affirmative action, equal opportunity employer with a strong commitment to fostering a culturally diverse atmosphere for faculty, staff, and students. Women and members of minority groups are especially encouraged to apply. The University particularly seeks candidates who demonstrate excellence in both teaching and research. Information about the College of Arts and Letters is available at . ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From amoss8 at JHU.EDU Wed Nov 14 14:12:26 2007 From: amoss8 at JHU.EDU (Anne Eakin Moss) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:12:26 -0500 Subject: AAASS convention child care co-op Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Thank you for your enthusiastic and supportive messages about establishing a child care co-op at the AAASS national convention. We have 19 interested parents and a total of 26 children! Let us reiterate: this is a project in the planning stages for next year in Philadelphia. But we will be very glad to discuss the issue this week in New Orleans, especially if you can share experiences with child care at other conventions or if you are willing to help with the planning. Please feel free to come find one or both of us during the convention. One or both of us will be attending the AWSS luncheon on Saturday, and will also try to attend some part of the "Women Navigating Academia" panel Saturday afternoon. Sincerely, Anne Eakin Moss Elissa Bemporad ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From frosset at WHEATONMA.EDU Wed Nov 14 15:16:01 2007 From: frosset at WHEATONMA.EDU (Francoise Rosset) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 10:16:01 -0500 Subject: Increased Enrollments article In-Reply-To: <560EE5F2-667F-4C1A-B4BB-3CF28DA4E680@jhu.edu> Message-ID: Today's Chronicle records the MLA's findings on Increased Enrollments in the Languages http://chronicle.com/temp/email2.php?id=xvdfDJGsYVNpWyPt4sjmr8R4vRS423wp In reading the article carefully you will find out two things: 1. The news is NOT all rosy 2. The word "Russian" or "Slavic" appears nowhere in the article. Does anyone know what the official MLA story is for Russian/ Slavic? And is anyone tracking what happens to Slavic languages when *small* colleges jump on the Arabic/Chinese bandwagon? Please understand I firmly believe more languages are good, in principle, especially if and when the college has resources in other fields to back them up. There should be so many more!! But I also suspect Slavic competes for the same limited student pool as Arabic and Asian languages. Is this merely mild paranoia? Could it be that instead we bolster one another? Thoughts and info? -FR -- Francoise Rosset Chair, Russian and Russian Studies Coordinator, German and Russian Wheaton College Norton, Massachusetts 02766 phone: (508) 286-3696 fax #: (508) 286-3640 e-mail: FRosset at wheatonma.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meloches at UMICH.EDU Wed Nov 14 15:23:33 2007 From: meloches at UMICH.EDU (meloches at UMICH.EDU) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 10:23:33 -0500 Subject: Check out "More Students, More Languages" at insidehighered.com Message-ID: This message was sent to you because thought you might be interested in "More Students, More Languages" at insidehighered.com. Here's a link to the page: http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/11/14/languages Comments from : This article from Inside Higher Ed ranks Russian with other languages taught. Want to receive Inside Higher Ed's FREE daily news alerts? Signup online at http://www.insidehighered.com/sign_up for your e-mail review of top news stories, provocative opinion and great new careers in higher education. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From anthony.j.vanchu at NASA.GOV Wed Nov 14 16:23:04 2007 From: anthony.j.vanchu at NASA.GOV (Vanchu, Anthony J. (JSC-AH)[TTI]) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 10:23:04 -0600 Subject: Increased Enrollments article In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: If you click on the "report" link in the first sentence, you'll get a PDF file with the MLA article itself. There you'll find information about Russian. Tony Dr. Anthony J. Vanchu Director, JSC Language Education Center TechTrans International, Inc. NASA Johnson Space Center Houston, TX anthony.j.vanchu at nasa.gov Phone: (281) 483-0644 Fax: (281) 483-4050 -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Francoise Rosset Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 9:16 AM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: [SEELANGS] Increased Enrollments article Today's Chronicle records the MLA's findings on Increased Enrollments in the Languages http://chronicle.com/temp/email2.php?id=xvdfDJGsYVNpWyPt4sjmr8R4vRS423wp In reading the article carefully you will find out two things: 1. The news is NOT all rosy 2. The word "Russian" or "Slavic" appears nowhere in the article. Does anyone know what the official MLA story is for Russian/ Slavic? And is anyone tracking what happens to Slavic languages when *small* colleges jump on the Arabic/Chinese bandwagon? Please understand I firmly believe more languages are good, in principle, especially if and when the college has resources in other fields to back them up. There should be so many more!! But I also suspect Slavic competes for the same limited student pool as Arabic and Asian languages. Is this merely mild paranoia? Could it be that instead we bolster one another? Thoughts and info? -FR -- Francoise Rosset Chair, Russian and Russian Studies Coordinator, German and Russian Wheaton College Norton, Massachusetts 02766 phone: (508) 286-3696 fax #: (508) 286-3640 e-mail: FRosset at wheatonma.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From renee at ALINGA.COM Wed Nov 14 17:57:45 2007 From: renee at ALINGA.COM (Renee Stillings) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:57:45 -0800 Subject: Increased Enrollments article In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "But I also suspect Slavic competes for the same limited student pool as Arabic and Asian languages. Is this merely mild paranoia? Could it be that instead we bolster one another?" I would think this competition is certainly the case. Arabic of course has gotten the "anti-terrorist" boost and China has apparently been able to disseminate the message that there are endless business opportunities there - and students perceive this. I am interested in any other opinions as to why we cannot seem to make any headway in increasing Russian language study. My personal inclination that from the aspects of culture, linguistics, literature, and the arts Russian holds up just fine against the directly competing languages. What it lacks is the clear and understandable draw of business/career opportunities. Those opportunities are not as accessible to the average American. I suspect that a far greater number of Americans can envison some involvement with China - be it trade, manufacturing, or outsourcing. Such career opportunities are more apparent to the many business-oriented students. The opportunities in Russia, outside of the academic and NGO sectors, are narrower. They are either for the extremely adventurous and thick-skinned entrepreneur, the risk-attracted financial types, or those in resource-extraction related industries. These are not opportunities for those right out of college or the typical mom n' pop business in the US. They tend, in fact, to be for the non-Russian major. Even the lure of English teaching has always been more elusive in Russia. There is no outreach really for teachers. It is those who happen to already be there or are otherwise very determined. This is now going to backslide even further as the new visa regulations are going to make it nearly impossible for young people to "hang out" for a year or two teaching and as such often transition into other positions in the Russian market. Especially with prices in Russia skyrocketing, it is rapidly become impossible to self-fund an extended stay there without legal (work-permit based) employment. Still, we should expect more growth in the numbers than there is. Can anyone offer up any feedback based on attempts to recruit students and reasons they give for choosing other languages? Renee ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mp at MIPCO.COM Wed Nov 14 20:23:50 2007 From: mp at MIPCO.COM (mipco) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:23:50 -0600 Subject: Russian Fonts in Leopard Message-ID: I have installd Leopard OS X on my iMac and several old Russian fonts stopped being displayed. They did work with Tiger OS. The "Cyrilic" and "Russian Time" fonts I have problem with were made in 1994. Does anyone know of a converter to change old documents written in an old font into a document with one of new Cyrilic Fonts in Mac? Or are there any other solutions? -- Michael Peltsman M.I.P. Company P.O.B. 27484 Minneapolis, Minnesota 55427 USA http://www.mipco.com mp at mipco.com phone:763-544-5915 fax: 612-871-5733 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From caron.4 at OSU.EDU Wed Nov 14 20:31:49 2007 From: caron.4 at OSU.EDU (Inna Caron) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 15:31:49 -0500 Subject: Increased Enrollments article In-Reply-To: <008301c826e7$dd24b390$0300a8c0@renee> Message-ID: > Can anyone >offer up any feedback based on attempts to recruit students and reasons they >give for choosing other languages? > Renee Russia is no longer perceived as a major threat to national security and/or the principle competitor for the world dominance. Russian has never been the primary language of choice for the business majors, but it used to be popular among those preparing themselves for military and government careers. These days, despite some news releases here and there, assuring the general public that Putin is up to no good, Russia just doesn't have that formidable status of The Evil Empire. It affected not only the prospective majors, but even the seasoned professionals. Not that there is no more need in the international security experts specializing in that region; it's just that there is a no need for as many of them as it used to be. I once attended a talk by a CIA officer, who put a great effort into emphasizing that it would be foolish to assume that Russia is no longer the most dangerous enemy. Incidentally, the officer was a specialist on the former Soviet Union, and gave the sad impression of someone fearing for their job security. A few years ago I gave a talk on Russian hackers and cybercrime in the U.S. One of the attendees said afterward, "We need more of this type of publications, because it will assure the funding of the Russian programs, which we can then use to continue teaching Dostoevsky." Inna -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Renee Stillings Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 12:58 PM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Increased Enrollments article "But I also suspect Slavic competes for the same limited student pool as Arabic and Asian languages. Is this merely mild paranoia? Could it be that instead we bolster one another?" I would think this competition is certainly the case. Arabic of course has gotten the "anti-terrorist" boost and China has apparently been able to disseminate the message that there are endless business opportunities there - and students perceive this. I am interested in any other opinions as to why we cannot seem to make any headway in increasing Russian language study. My personal inclination that from the aspects of culture, linguistics, literature, and the arts Russian holds up just fine against the directly competing languages. What it lacks is the clear and understandable draw of business/career opportunities. Those opportunities are not as accessible to the average American. I suspect that a far greater number of Americans can envison some involvement with China - be it trade, manufacturing, or outsourcing. Such career opportunities are more apparent to the many business-oriented students. The opportunities in Russia, outside of the academic and NGO sectors, are narrower. They are either for the extremely adventurous and thick-skinned entrepreneur, the risk-attracted financial types, or those in resource-extraction related industries. These are not opportunities for those right out of college or the typical mom n' pop business in the US. They tend, in fact, to be for the non-Russian major. Even the lure of English teaching has always been more elusive in Russia. There is no outreach really for teachers. It is those who happen to already be there or are otherwise very determined. This is now going to backslide even further as the new visa regulations are going to make it nearly impossible for young people to "hang out" for a year or two teaching and as such often transition into other positions in the Russian market. Especially with prices in Russia skyrocketing, it is rapidly become impossible to self-fund an extended stay there without legal (work-permit based) employment. Still, we should expect more growth in the numbers than there is. Can anyone offer up any feedback based on attempts to recruit students and reasons they give for choosing other languages? Renee ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From maswift at UVIC.CA Wed Nov 14 21:56:41 2007 From: maswift at UVIC.CA (maswift) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:56:41 -0800 Subject: Call For Papers: Canadian Association of Slavists Annual Conference In-Reply-To: <071f01c826fd$63c511a0$2b4f34e0$@4@osu.edu> Message-ID: CANADIAN ASSOCIATION OF SLAVISTS ANNUAL CONFERENCE May 31-June 2, 2008 (Saturday – Monday) University of British Columbia Vancouver, British Columbia CALL FOR PAPERS The annual conference of the Canadian Association of Slavists will take place in Vancouver (British Columbia) on May 31- June 2, 2008 as part of the Congress of the Humanities and Social Sciences Federation. The theme of the 2008 Congress is THINKING BEYOND BORDERS. Proposals are invited for individual papers, panels, and roundtable discussions. Proposals for complete panels are preferred. Please follow abstract specifications (see attached) when submitting your proposal(s). We particularly want to encourage young scholars to participate in this conference. Deadline for proposals: 1 February 2008. Notification of the Program Committee’s decisions will be sent out by 3 March 2008. ALL PRESENTERS MUST BE MEMBERS OF CAS. For all questions, please contact Megan Swift (maswift at uvic.ca) (250.721.7504) or Bozena Karwowska (bozena at interchange.ubc.ca) (604.822.5956) Abstract specifications: To apply for participation in the conference, please fill out the respective forms (CV and individual paper proposal form; roundtable proposal form and/or panel proposal form). Abstracts should not exceed 400 words. Please use MS Word for Windows and Times New Roman or MS Word for Apple and TimesCE or pure Unicode text. Make sure to use the Library of Congress transliteration system to render words in a Cyrillic alphabet. Your abstract should present a research question and outline your plan for investigating this scholarly problem. Each abstract will be reviewed by the Program Committee. Abstracts sent by attachment may be emailed to either Megan Swift (maswift at uvic.ca) or Bozena Karwowska (bozena at interchange.ubc.ca). If electronic submission is not possible, send hard copies of your proposal to: Megan Swift, Assistant Professor Department of Germanic and Russian Studies University of Victoria PO Box 3045 STN CSC, Victoria BC. V8W 3P4 Canada. Tel. 250.721.7504 Fax 250.721.7319 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Wed Nov 14 22:17:38 2007 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:17:38 -0500 Subject: Increased Enrollments article In-Reply-To: <071f01c826fd$63c511a0$2b4f34e0$@4@osu.edu> Message-ID: Inna Caron wrote: > Russia is no longer perceived as a major threat to national security and/or > the principal competitor for the world dominance. Russian has never been the > primary language of choice for the business majors, but it used to be > popular among those preparing themselves for military and government > careers. These days, despite some news releases here and there, assuring the > general public that Putin is up to no good, Russia just doesn't have that > formidable status of The Evil Empire. It affected not only the prospective > majors, but even the seasoned professionals. Not that there is no more need > in the international security experts specializing in that region; it's just > that there is a no need for as many of them as it used to be. I once > attended a talk by a CIA officer, who put a great effort into emphasizing > that it would be foolish to assume that Russia is no longer the most > dangerous enemy. Incidentally, the officer was a specialist on the former > Soviet Union, and gave the sad impression of someone fearing for their job > security. > > A few years ago I gave a talk on Russian hackers and cybercrime in the U.S. > One of the attendees said afterward, "We need more of this type of > publications, because it will assure the funding of the Russian programs, > which we can then use to continue teaching Dostoevsky." This much is true, but it's only part of the picture. When the Soviet Union collapsed back in 1991, there was an initial rush of Western companies to enter the newly opened market. Unfortunately, for political and legal reasons (including the 1998 default), most Western companies no longer regard Russia as a huge opportunity. There is a steady low level of trade, but not nearly what we might expect if the political and legal environments were as conducive as they are in Brazil, China, and India. Human rights aside, this is the great tragedy of Putinovshchina -- that fear of nationalization, fear of piracy, and quite simply fear of the inability to turn a profit and repatriate it -- are keeping Russia more isolated commercially than it need be. When and if the legal and political issues are resolved, the market for Russian speakers will pick up -- perhaps to the level of major European languages like French or Italian. Russia has nearly twice the population of Germany and three times the population of France, its people are highly educated and literate, and it has vastly more natural resources than the rest of Europe combined, so it does have something to sell. And let's keep in mind that we need far more language majors to deal with a major trading partner than with an Evil Empire. :-) -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Wed Nov 14 22:26:32 2007 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:26:32 -0500 Subject: Increased Enrollments article In-Reply-To: <071f01c826fd$63c511a0$2b4f34e0$@4@osu.edu> Message-ID: On Nov 14, 2007, at 3:31 PM, Inna Caron wrote: > Russia is no longer perceived as a major threat to national > security and/or > the principle competitor for the world dominance. 1. Russian is one of top four urgently needed (that is speakers of, pardon my fractured syntax) on the State Dept. and US Army lists. 2. That's what makes so many Russians upset and they are trying their darnest to make sure that Americans (and others) perceive them that way. Alina Israeli LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW Washington DC. 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From renee at ALINGA.COM Wed Nov 14 22:47:51 2007 From: renee at ALINGA.COM (Renee Stillings) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:47:51 -0800 Subject: Increased Enrollments article In-Reply-To: <473B7402.5010705@pbg-translations.com> Message-ID: "And let's keep in mind that we need far more language majors to deal with a major trading partner than with an Evil Empire. :-)" This is an excellent summary statement. The irony of it all is that if to ask any of the major foreign players in Russia right now, this is their #1 market. The American Chamber of Commerce of Russia has a whole list of quotes from those heading up operations in Russia that you'd think would have more of us heading east. They are all making such gobs of money that they will put up with the other challenges, of which there are many. With the petrocurrency and the falling dollar there is a flood of money there waiting to gobble up just about anything (of quality - they are fussy!) we will sell them. Berlitz has recently entered the market in Russia. They are literally going gangbusters - growing at a far faster pace than anticipated. They are not Exxon or Coca Cola, but they are an indicator as to what is happening. Russians are looking at international possibilities and learning foreign languages as fast as they can - even at pretty high prices. Another interesting trend that is starting set in is Russian investment abroad. How will this affect the interest in Russia? Hard to say, but Russian money is coming. Lukoils bought the former Getty Gas Stations, Severstahl bought Rouge Steel, Evraz bought Oregon Steel Mills. Activity is even more significant in Europe and the Russians are all over Africa these days. This year the worldwide investment conference as concern Russia were at least equally focused on outward investment from Russia. Related to the Evraz deal, I found the following tidbit interesting (from http://news.surfwax.com/biz/files/Oregon_Steel_Mills.html which also highlights some other steel mill activity, much with Russian involvement): Oct 13, 2007: "OSU is supporting an effort to change the state s foreign language instruction being led by the University of Oregon, and supported by government agencies, school districts and businesses such as Nike, IBM, Reser s Fine Foods and Oregon Steel Mills. The Oregon Roadmap to Language Excellence aims to ensure that every Oregon high school graduate is functionally proficient in another language by 2025. (Corvallis Gazette Times, OR)" I wonder just how interested Oregon Steel Mills was in supporting foreign language learning before the Russians took over? Anyone on the list from Oregon - would be curious as to any real impact this has had locally on Russian language enrollment. A hypothetical (or maybe not) question - if the Russians are all learning English because we (businesses) are coming to them, will we learn Russian if they start coming to us? Renee ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sendelbach at LAKEFOREST.EDU Wed Nov 14 23:13:08 2007 From: sendelbach at LAKEFOREST.EDU (Donnie Sendelbach) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:13:08 -0600 Subject: Russian Fonts in Leopard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Michael, In the past when I've had trouble, in the old OS I'd change the font to a more standard Russian font/one that was developed later, resave the file and then open it in the new OS. No guarantees this will work with your problem. With Leopard, Classic has completely disappeared, so anything from OS 9 might be problematic. ds On Nov 14, 2007, at 2:23 PM, mipco wrote: > I have installd Leopard OS X on my iMac and several old Russian > fonts stopped being displayed. They did work with Tiger OS. > The "Cyrilic" and "Russian Time" fonts I have problem with were > made in 1994. Does anyone know of a converter to change old > documents written in an old font into a document with one of new > Cyrilic Fonts in Mac? Or are there any other solutions? > -- > Michael Peltsman > M.I.P. Company > P.O.B. 27484 > Minneapolis, Minnesota 55427 USA > http://www.mipco.com > mp at mipco.com > phone:763-544-5915 > fax: 612-871-5733 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- Donnie Sendelbach, Ph.D. Academic Technology Specialist Co-Director, Virtual Burnham Initiative 555 N. Sheridan Rd. Donnelley & Lee Library Room 233 Lake Forest College Lake Forest, IL 60045 (847) 735-5113 (847) 735-6297 (fax) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From k.r.hauge at ILOS.UIO.NO Thu Nov 15 00:17:59 2007 From: k.r.hauge at ILOS.UIO.NO (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kjetil_R=E5_Hauge?=) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 01:17:59 +0100 Subject: Russian Fonts in Leopard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: mipco wrote: > I have installd Leopard OS X on my iMac and several old Russian fonts > stopped being displayed. They did work with Tiger OS. > The "Cyrilic" and "Russian Time" fonts I have problem with were made in > 1994. Does anyone know of a converter to change old documents written in > an old font into a document with one of new Cyrilic Fonts in Mac? Or are > there any other solutions? If the fonts adhere to one of the standards of the time (KOI-8, MacCyrillic etc), you may try this: 1. Get TextWrangler (free) from barebones.com 2. In Preferences>Text Encodings, enable all Cyrillic encodings 3. Open your word processor and save the file as "text only". If you have problems at this point, go directly to the next (and you will have more noise in the result) 4. Open the file in TextWrangler 5. Use menu "Reopen using encoding..." with different Cyrillic encodings until the result is readable 6. Save as UTF-8 or UTF-16 7. Open in your word processor and reformat (all formatting, bold, italics etc. will be gone). Converting non-standard encodings and/or preserving formatting is more complicated. If can use AppleScript (and FileMaker, for non-standard encodings) I can send you some scripts that will give you ideas to work from. -- --- Kjetil Rå Hauge, U. of Oslo --- tel. +47/22856710, fax +1/5084372444 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From caron.4 at OSU.EDU Thu Nov 15 04:59:35 2007 From: caron.4 at OSU.EDU (Inna Caron) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:59:35 -0500 Subject: Increased Enrollments article In-Reply-To: <00f501c82710$643034e0$0300a8c0@renee> Message-ID: >A hypothetical (or maybe not) question - if the Russians are all learning >English because we (businesses) are coming to them, will we learn Russian if >they start coming to us? >Renee I believe the Russians are all learning English because it is the international language these days. Same reason they learned French back in the 19th century (rather than because so many refugees from Napoleonic France opened up fashion shops all over Petersburg and Moscow :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From margarita at RENT-A-MIND.COM Thu Nov 15 05:58:11 2007 From: margarita at RENT-A-MIND.COM (Margarita Orlova) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 21:58:11 -0800 Subject: Increased Enrollments article In-Reply-To: <073e01c82744$526884e0$f7398ea0$@4@osu.edu> Message-ID: But if American businessmen do not know Russian, Russians will cheat on them. I've heard about that problem with Chinese;) Margarita On Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 08:59 PM, Inna Caron wrote: >> A hypothetical (or maybe not) question - if the Russians are all >> learning >> English because we (businesses) are coming to them, will we learn >> Russian > if >> they start coming to us? > >> Renee > > I believe the Russians are all learning English because it is the > international language these days. Same reason they learned French > back in > the 19th century (rather than because so many refugees from Napoleonic > France opened up fashion shops all over Petersburg and Moscow :-) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jwilson at SRAS.ORG Thu Nov 15 08:30:09 2007 From: jwilson at SRAS.ORG (Josh Wilson) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 11:30:09 +0300 Subject: Increased Enrollments article In-Reply-To: <81010780-F67B-4870-AB17-D790C8C5E297@american.edu> Message-ID: Another two cents, I don't think that a drop in Russia's perceived threat is to blame. The US does see Russia as threat - Alina Israeli's comments show this, as does nearly all journalism in the States, as does the current politics in Central Asia. Take Georgia, for instance. Georgia is right now our one way of "safely" getting oil out of Central Asia - Russia wants control there because with Georgia in its sphere, it can route all the oil and gas heading for the West through Russian pipelines, thus boosting Russian economic and political power. While the news will have you believe that Iran and "terrorists" are our biggest threats - that title more properly rests with China and Russia - who are increasingly gaining the ability to challenge us militarily and, more importantly, economically. Thus, we are supporting Georgia's current government while Russia is supporting its opposition. Also, Russia is still seen by businesses as a source of major profits. The consumer boom, petrodollars, etc. means that, according to a study by Ernst and Young that says that 90% of business invested here plan to expand in 2008. Many more companies (mostly smaller, like Campbell's Soup, Starbucks, Berlitz - but also a few major companies like Disney) - are now planning or recently made market entries or major investments. And foreign investment is still in the billions every year. Intel recently opened a fairly expensive R&D facility in Nizhny Novgorod. Pepsi is planning a brand new factory in southern Russia. Coca-Cola is following through with plans to invest 1.5 billion dollars (yes, billion) in Russia over the next few years. And that's just what I recall off the top of my head. I would offer that the slump in interest is simply one of style. Russia was cool in the 80s and early 90s. Now, it's out of fashion. China's the new Russia, so to say. Maybe in several years, it will be Russia's turn again - or maybe students will be studying Portuguese to head down to Brazil. Hard to say. A major PR campaign (or major world event) would likely help - something to drive home that Russia is a major destination for investment - and is very important to international diplomacy. But that would take the media reporting on Russia with something other than hopelessness - and likely politicians doing the same. I don't think this is likely in the near future. Maybe we could get Paris Hilton and Ksenia Sobchuk to do some public service announcements? ;) (kidding, of course). But this doesn't mean that increased grass-roots efforts that we can do won't help. For folks hoping to build the attractiveness of their programs on campus, SRAS offers http://www.sras.org/educators (see "Classroom Materials and Advocacy). We'd love to hear what you think - and if you have success (or failure) with our ideas. Best, Josh Wilson Asst. Director The School of Russian and Asian Studies Editor-in-Chief Vestnik, The Journal of Russian and Asian Studies www.sras.org jwilson at sras.org -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Alina Israeli Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 1:27 AM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Increased Enrollments article On Nov 14, 2007, at 3:31 PM, Inna Caron wrote: > Russia is no longer perceived as a major threat to national > security and/or > the principle competitor for the world dominance. 1. Russian is one of top four urgently needed (that is speakers of, pardon my fractured syntax) on the State Dept. and US Army lists. 2. That's what makes so many Russians upset and they are trying their darnest to make sure that Americans (and others) perceive them that way. Alina Israeli LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW Washington DC. 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From amarilis at BUGBYTES.COM Thu Nov 15 14:56:57 2007 From: amarilis at BUGBYTES.COM (B. Amarilis Lugo de Fabritz) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 09:56:57 -0500 Subject: Increased Enrollments article In-Reply-To: <071f01c826fd$63c511a0$2b4f34e0$@4@osu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Nov 2007, Inna Caron wrote: > > A few years ago I gave a talk on Russian hackers and cybercrime in the U.S. > One of the attendees said afterward, "We need more of this type of > publications, because it will assure the funding of the Russian programs, > which we can then use to continue teaching Dostoevsky." > There are two angles that I see as openings for expanding the enrollments. The security angle has always been clearly compelling. The angle we still have to maximize is the plain appeal of the popular culture. I had three experiences this week that made this clear to me. I teach at a Historically Black University, and the standard channels for Russian language are usually exposure to the literature content courses that fulfill the humanities requirement. I had one of my literature students come into my office yesterday to show me a dvd copy - her own personal copy - of Russian Ark. She was absolutely excited about the difference between this movie and the other American "artsy" movies she has watched. Unfortunately, her father is working in Beijing this year, so she gets free Chinese in China this summer *GROAN* otherwise she would sign up for Russian next year. But she is trying to see if she can get to Siberia for Russian. If she does that, she mnight be willing to take both Chinese and Russian in the fall. Granted, it is a less than even odd of taking Russian, but she is quite excited about it. The other experience occured with my four year old. He finally got to see Little Einstein's episode on the Firebird -- granted a super kitchy, stereotypical presentation of Russian art and music. But I was in the car with the classical music station on and he sang along to a segment of the Firebird they were playing on the radio. From Wiggles to Stravinsky in an hour. He also really really likes Dvorak's Ninth because Little Einsteins has used it in four episodes. The same thing can apply to our universities, only with materials that appeal to the MTV generation. Granted, it means proactive work by overworked, underpaid faculty to do things like film festivals and concerts, but that grabs undergraduate attentions at their MTV level. Finally, the most influential experience involved word of mouth. Somehow, even though we have not had enough content for a major in the last few years, we got a graduating Senior win a Fulbright to go to Russia. Another student completed summer study at Middlebury and is singing the glories of Russian to any classmate who will listen. I have another student in second year Russian and in my literature classes who is trying to find a way to do summer study in the United States. Our own students are the best advertisements for Russian. The problem is the available energy to resources ratio. Usually Spanish has hundreds of students to help faculty put together whatever you want - plays, concerts, Spanish club suppers, etc. Your average Russian department, at maybe a half to a fifth to a tenth of the size of the Spanish contingent burns faculty out at a higher rate. Getting funding for one special program every two years is a lot easier than having to get funding for every special program we want to put together. That is a problem I have a harder time solving. Amarilis Lugo de Fabritz Lecturer, Howard University ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From welsh at HWS.EDU Thu Nov 15 17:22:12 2007 From: welsh at HWS.EDU (Welsh, Kristen) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:22:12 -0500 Subject: Increased Enrollments article Message-ID: Posted for my colleague, David Galloway; I should note that I've been the "other half" of the Learning Community for the past two years, teaching Russian 101, and that David's note expresses my views, as well. --Kristen Welsh, Hobart and William Smith Colleges David's message: I'd like to address the question of Russian enrollments from more of a programmatic point of view. Speaking only from personal experience, advertising and the profile of the program only affects courses in culture, not language. (There may be a small trickle-down effect when students first take a culture course, and then try the language, but it's neither significant nor predictable.) For several years we put major effort into advertising, staffing tables at open houses and registration, and so on--with poor results for language. Culture courses have boomed, however. But our majors (area studies/language and culture) require either two or four years of language, respectively, so we have to get students into those courses. Our current solution, which seems to be working well, is to offer a first-year seminar (required for all incoming students) which is part of a "learning community"--which means that any student who chooses our seminar must register for Russian 101 (students with prior knowledge are excluded). Though the administration was initially concerned that there might not be enough students who want to do this, for two years we've had no trouble filling the course. The advantages are several: we have a guaranteed Rus 101 class of 12-14 students each year, we accrue good-citizen credit for supporting the first-year curriculum, and we catch the students as they enter. It was our belief--now confirmed--that there are students who want to take Russian language, but if you find them as sophomores, it's often too late. Apropos of recent posts, I should say that we don't advertise the seminar with anything which addresses outcomes or career paths--it's pure culture (in this case, Russian folklore). The obvious question is, how many continue? Of the 15 students in 101 (including three students who are not in the seminar), 9-10 are continuing to 102 (last year we had 12 in 102). This is not huge, but for an institution our size (2000 students) without any language requirement, it represents a dramatic improvement. Too often over the last decade we have had language courses of four or fewer, which tends to attract unwelcome scrutiny. This arrangement also opens up the possibility of interesting linkages between the two courses, which are encouraged as part of the first-year experience. The lesson for us seems to be that if you subject the students to a semester of language, getting them through those first (sometimes painful) couple months, a good number will continue, often surprising themselves with how interested they've become in the field. We do offer an additional carrot--with a catch. Students can go on a 10-day trip to Moscow and St. P in May with us if they pass 101 and take 102 (spring). This non-credit trip is not sponsored by the institution, so students pay their own way. I'd be interested to know if anyone has tried or is trying something similar. DJG ______________________________ David J. Galloway Assistant Professor Russian Area Studies Program Hobart and William Smith Colleges Geneva, New York 14456-3397 Phone: (315) 781-3790 Fax: (315) 781-3822 Email: galloway at hws.edu http://academic.hws.edu/russian/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vjhaynes at BELLSOUTH.NET Thu Nov 15 23:21:46 2007 From: vjhaynes at BELLSOUTH.NET (Janey Haynes) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 23:21:46 +0000 Subject: Increased Enrollments article Message-ID: I have been teaching Russian at McGavock High School in Nashville, TN, since 1986, and it's interesting the way the enrollment's gone. Back then, with the Cold War still on, it was the language of choice by the "alternative" kids, many of them "Goth", many of them brilliant and troubled at the same time. Then, down came the curtain, and enrollment dropped to a mere trickle. I've always had one Russian class, a combination class with up to four levels in the same classroom at the same time (one-room schoolhouse!), with first year getting the lion's share of attention and levels 3 & 4 never more than 3-4 students each. Because of declining enrollment our assistant principal in charge of scheduling took it upon herself to delete first year Russian from the schedule last year, so while I had a handful of second year and four brilliant third year students, I had nothing to build on. Fortunately she retired and the new assistant principal allowed me to recruit. She let me speak to the incoming freshmen before they registered about the five languages offered at our school and to give the pros for each one. I know that put Russian back on the map for some. But the biggest and best boost we got was from the Open House in the spring, where parents can come in to look at our programs. My Russian two kids did a bang-up job advertising Russian, so that this year I have 31 first year students and 3 third years. The first quarter I had 1/3 make A's in Russian 1--and when that was compared to the number of A's in the other foreign languages taught here, it brought gasps of amazement. The kids love it. They feel special, and many of them have already expressed the desire to go three, even four years with it. Word of mouth, people. It's the BEST advertisement! Janey Haynes Nashville, TN -------------- Original message from Josh Wilson : -------------- > Another two cents, > > I don't think that a drop in Russia's perceived threat is to blame. The US > does see Russia as threat - Alina Israeli's comments show this, as does > nearly all journalism in the States, as does the current politics in Central > Asia. Take Georgia, for instance. Georgia is right now our one way of > "safely" getting oil out of Central Asia - Russia wants control there > because with Georgia in its sphere, it can route all the oil and gas heading > for the West through Russian pipelines, thus boosting Russian economic and > political power. While the news will have you believe that Iran and > "terrorists" are our biggest threats - that title more properly rests with > China and Russia - who are increasingly gaining the ability to challenge us > militarily and, more importantly, economically. Thus, we are supporting > Georgia's current government while Russia is supporting its opposition. > > Also, Russia is still seen by businesses as a source of major profits. The > consumer boom, petrodollars, etc. means that, according to a study by Ernst > and Young that says that 90% of business invested here plan to expand in > 2008. Many more companies (mostly smaller, like Campbell's Soup, Starbucks, > Berlitz - but also a few major companies like Disney) - are now planning or > recently made market entries or major investments. And foreign investment is > still in the billions every year. Intel recently opened a fairly expensive > R&D facility in Nizhny Novgorod. Pepsi is planning a brand new factory in > southern Russia. Coca-Cola is following through with plans to invest 1.5 > billion dollars (yes, billion) in Russia over the next few years. And that's > just what I recall off the top of my head. > > I would offer that the slump in interest is simply one of style. Russia was > cool in the 80s and early 90s. Now, it's out of fashion. China's the new > Russia, so to say. Maybe in several years, it will be Russia's turn again - > or maybe students will be studying Portuguese to head down to Brazil. Hard > to say. > > A major PR campaign (or major world event) would likely help - something to > drive home that Russia is a major destination for investment - and is very > important to international diplomacy. But that would take the media > reporting on Russia with something other than hopelessness - and likely > politicians doing the same. I don't think this is likely in the near future. > Maybe we could get Paris Hilton and Ksenia Sobchuk to do some public service > announcements? ;) (kidding, of course). > > But this doesn't mean that increased grass-roots efforts that we can do > won't help. For folks hoping to build the attractiveness of their programs > on campus, SRAS offers http://www.sras.org/educators (see "Classroom > Materials and Advocacy). We'd love to hear what you think - and if you have > success (or failure) with our ideas. > > Best, > > > > Josh Wilson > Asst. Director > The School of Russian and Asian Studies > Editor-in-Chief > Vestnik, The Journal of Russian and Asian Studies > www.sras.org > jwilson at sras.org > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list > [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Alina Israeli > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 1:27 AM > To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Increased Enrollments article > > On Nov 14, 2007, at 3:31 PM, Inna Caron wrote: > > > Russia is no longer perceived as a major threat to national > > security and/or > > the principle competitor for the world dominance. > > > 1. Russian is one of top four urgently needed (that is speakers of, > pardon my fractured syntax) on the State Dept. and US Army lists. > > 2. That's what makes so many Russians upset and they are trying their > darnest to make sure that Americans (and others) perceive them that way. > > > > Alina Israeli > LFS, American University > 4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW > Washington DC. 20016 > (202) 885-2387 > fax (202) 885-1076 > aisrael at american.edu > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Fri Nov 16 06:17:43 2007 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 06:17:43 +0000 Subject: Increased Enrollments article In-Reply-To: <111520072321.17261.473CD489000971490000436D22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9C0A02970E080690@att.net> Message-ID: Dear Janey, CONGRATULATIONS on all this! Robert > I have been teaching Russian at McGavock High School in Nashville, TN, since > 1986, and it's interesting the way the enrollment's gone. Back then, with the > Cold War still on, it was the language of choice by the "alternative" kids, > many of them "Goth", many of them brilliant and troubled at the same time. > Then, down came the curtain, and enrollment dropped to a mere trickle. I've > always had one Russian class, a combination class with up to four levels in > the same classroom at the same time (one-room schoolhouse!), with first year > getting the lion's share of attention and levels 3 & 4 never more than 3-4 > students each. Because of declining enrollment our assistant principal in > charge of scheduling took it upon herself to delete first year Russian from > the schedule last year, so while I had a handful of second year and four > brilliant third year students, I had nothing to build on. Fortunately she > retired and the new assistant principal allowed me to recruit. She let me > speak to > the incoming freshmen before they registered about the five languages offered > at our school and to give the pros for each one. I know that put Russian back > on the map for some. But the biggest and best boost we got was from the Open > House in the spring, where parents can come in to look at our programs. My > Russian two kids did a bang-up job advertising Russian, so that this year I > have 31 first year students and 3 third years. The first quarter I had 1/3 > make A's in Russian 1--and when that was compared to the number of A's in the > other foreign languages taught here, it brought gasps of amazement. The kids > love it. They feel special, and many of them have already expressed the > desire to go three, even four years with it. Word of mouth, people. It's the > BEST advertisement! > > Janey Haynes > Nashville, TN > > -------------- Original message from Josh Wilson : > -------------- > > >> Another two cents, >> >> I don't think that a drop in Russia's perceived threat is to blame. The US >> does see Russia as threat - Alina Israeli's comments show this, as does >> nearly all journalism in the States, as does the current politics in Central >> Asia. Take Georgia, for instance. Georgia is right now our one way of >> "safely" getting oil out of Central Asia - Russia wants control there >> because with Georgia in its sphere, it can route all the oil and gas heading >> for the West through Russian pipelines, thus boosting Russian economic and >> political power. While the news will have you believe that Iran and >> "terrorists" are our biggest threats - that title more properly rests with >> China and Russia - who are increasingly gaining the ability to challenge us >> militarily and, more importantly, economically. Thus, we are supporting >> Georgia's current government while Russia is supporting its opposition. >> >> Also, Russia is still seen by businesses as a source of major profits. The >> consumer boom, petrodollars, etc. means that, according to a study by Ernst >> and Young that says that 90% of business invested here plan to expand in >> 2008. Many more companies (mostly smaller, like Campbell's Soup, Starbucks, >> Berlitz - but also a few major companies like Disney) - are now planning or >> recently made market entries or major investments. And foreign investment is >> still in the billions every year. Intel recently opened a fairly expensive >> R&D facility in Nizhny Novgorod. Pepsi is planning a brand new factory in >> southern Russia. Coca-Cola is following through with plans to invest 1.5 >> billion dollars (yes, billion) in Russia over the next few years. And that's >> just what I recall off the top of my head. >> >> I would offer that the slump in interest is simply one of style. Russia was >> cool in the 80s and early 90s. Now, it's out of fashion. China's the new >> Russia, so to say. Maybe in several years, it will be Russia's turn again - >> or maybe students will be studying Portuguese to head down to Brazil. Hard >> to say. >> >> A major PR campaign (or major world event) would likely help - something to >> drive home that Russia is a major destination for investment - and is very >> important to international diplomacy. But that would take the media >> reporting on Russia with something other than hopelessness - and likely >> politicians doing the same. I don't think this is likely in the near future. >> Maybe we could get Paris Hilton and Ksenia Sobchuk to do some public service >> announcements? ;) (kidding, of course). >> >> But this doesn't mean that increased grass-roots efforts that we can do >> won't help. For folks hoping to build the attractiveness of their programs >> on campus, SRAS offers http://www.sras.org/educators (see "Classroom >> Materials and Advocacy). We'd love to hear what you think - and if you have >> success (or failure) with our ideas. >> >> Best, >> >> >> >> Josh Wilson >> Asst. Director >> The School of Russian and Asian Studies >> Editor-in-Chief >> Vestnik, The Journal of Russian and Asian Studies >> www.sras.org >> jwilson at sras.org >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list >> [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Alina Israeli >> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 1:27 AM >> To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Increased Enrollments article >> >> On Nov 14, 2007, at 3:31 PM, Inna Caron wrote: >> >>> Russia is no longer perceived as a major threat to national >>> security and/or >>> the principle competitor for the world dominance. >> >> >> 1. Russian is one of top four urgently needed (that is speakers of, >> pardon my fractured syntax) on the State Dept. and US Army lists. >> >> 2. That's what makes so many Russians upset and they are trying their >> darnest to make sure that Americans (and others) perceive them that way. >> >> >> >> Alina Israeli >> LFS, American University >> 4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW >> Washington DC. 20016 >> (202) 885-2387 >> fax (202) 885-1076 >> aisrael at american.edu >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From JJorgensen at ERSKINEACADEMY.ORG Fri Nov 16 12:42:04 2007 From: JJorgensen at ERSKINEACADEMY.ORG (JJorgensen) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 07:42:04 -0500 Subject: Increased Enrollments article In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: Good job, Janey-- I started a Russian program last year at a high school in central. The Russian 1 had fifteen students, but five of those were seniors. This year's Russian 2 has nine students. Unfortunately, eight of those are seniors so will be gone in June. Last spring not enough students signed up in time to meet the scheduling deadline, which means no Russian 1 this year. I've already started recruiting for next year. But Russian has become notorious as a difficult language. If you have any suggestions on or off SEELANGS, let me know. Cheers! Jon Jorgensen Erskine Academy, Maine -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Robert Chandler Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 1:18 AM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Increased Enrollments article Dear Janey, CONGRATULATIONS on all this! Robert > I have been teaching Russian at McGavock High School in Nashville, TN, since > 1986, and it's interesting the way the enrollment's gone. Back then, with the > Cold War still on, it was the language of choice by the "alternative" kids, > many of them "Goth", many of them brilliant and troubled at the same time. > Then, down came the curtain, and enrollment dropped to a mere trickle. I've > always had one Russian class, a combination class with up to four levels in > the same classroom at the same time (one-room schoolhouse!), with first year > getting the lion's share of attention and levels 3 & 4 never more than 3-4 > students each. Because of declining enrollment our assistant principal in > charge of scheduling took it upon herself to delete first year Russian from > the schedule last year, so while I had a handful of second year and four > brilliant third year students, I had nothing to build on. Fortunately she > retired and the new assistant principal allowed me to recruit. She let me > speak to > the incoming freshmen before they registered about the five languages offered > at our school and to give the pros for each one. I know that put Russian back > on the map for some. But the biggest and best boost we got was from the Open > House in the spring, where parents can come in to look at our programs. My > Russian two kids did a bang-up job advertising Russian, so that this year I > have 31 first year students and 3 third years. The first quarter I had 1/3 > make A's in Russian 1--and when that was compared to the number of A's in the > other foreign languages taught here, it brought gasps of amazement. The kids > love it. They feel special, and many of them have already expressed the > desire to go three, even four years with it. Word of mouth, people. It's the > BEST advertisement! > > Janey Haynes > Nashville, TN > > -------------- Original message from Josh Wilson : > -------------- > > >> Another two cents, >> >> I don't think that a drop in Russia's perceived threat is to blame. The US >> does see Russia as threat - Alina Israeli's comments show this, as does >> nearly all journalism in the States, as does the current politics in Central >> Asia. Take Georgia, for instance. Georgia is right now our one way of >> "safely" getting oil out of Central Asia - Russia wants control there >> because with Georgia in its sphere, it can route all the oil and gas heading >> for the West through Russian pipelines, thus boosting Russian economic and >> political power. While the news will have you believe that Iran and >> "terrorists" are our biggest threats - that title more properly rests with >> China and Russia - who are increasingly gaining the ability to challenge us >> militarily and, more importantly, economically. Thus, we are supporting >> Georgia's current government while Russia is supporting its opposition. >> >> Also, Russia is still seen by businesses as a source of major profits. The >> consumer boom, petrodollars, etc. means that, according to a study by Ernst >> and Young that says that 90% of business invested here plan to expand in >> 2008. Many more companies (mostly smaller, like Campbell's Soup, Starbucks, >> Berlitz - but also a few major companies like Disney) - are now planning or >> recently made market entries or major investments. And foreign investment is >> still in the billions every year. Intel recently opened a fairly expensive >> R&D facility in Nizhny Novgorod. Pepsi is planning a brand new factory in >> southern Russia. Coca-Cola is following through with plans to invest 1.5 >> billion dollars (yes, billion) in Russia over the next few years. And that's >> just what I recall off the top of my head. >> >> I would offer that the slump in interest is simply one of style. Russia was >> cool in the 80s and early 90s. Now, it's out of fashion. China's the new >> Russia, so to say. Maybe in several years, it will be Russia's turn again - >> or maybe students will be studying Portuguese to head down to Brazil. Hard >> to say. >> >> A major PR campaign (or major world event) would likely help - something to >> drive home that Russia is a major destination for investment - and is very >> important to international diplomacy. But that would take the media >> reporting on Russia with something other than hopelessness - and likely >> politicians doing the same. I don't think this is likely in the near future. >> Maybe we could get Paris Hilton and Ksenia Sobchuk to do some public service >> announcements? ;) (kidding, of course). >> >> But this doesn't mean that increased grass-roots efforts that we can do >> won't help. For folks hoping to build the attractiveness of their programs >> on campus, SRAS offers http://www.sras.org/educators (see "Classroom >> Materials and Advocacy). We'd love to hear what you think - and if you have >> success (or failure) with our ideas. >> >> Best, >> >> >> >> Josh Wilson >> Asst. Director >> The School of Russian and Asian Studies >> Editor-in-Chief >> Vestnik, The Journal of Russian and Asian Studies >> www.sras.org >> jwilson at sras.org >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list >> [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Alina Israeli >> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 1:27 AM >> To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Increased Enrollments article >> >> On Nov 14, 2007, at 3:31 PM, Inna Caron wrote: >> >>> Russia is no longer perceived as a major threat to national >>> security and/or >>> the principle competitor for the world dominance. >> >> >> 1. Russian is one of top four urgently needed (that is speakers of, >> pardon my fractured syntax) on the State Dept. and US Army lists. >> >> 2. That's what makes so many Russians upset and they are trying their >> darnest to make sure that Americans (and others) perceive them that way. >> >> >> >> Alina Israeli >> LFS, American University >> 4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW >> Washington DC. 20016 >> (202) 885-2387 >> fax (202) 885-1076 >> aisrael at american.edu >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jobailey at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Fri Nov 16 15:52:05 2007 From: jobailey at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (James Bailey) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:52:05 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Everyone and anyone, Please send me the address for the site where I can find the form for renewing my membership in AATSEEL. Thanks, James Bailey ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From strakhov at GSD.HARVARD.EDU Fri Nov 16 16:02:50 2007 From: strakhov at GSD.HARVARD.EDU (Strakhov, Olga) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:02:50 -0500 Subject: Palaeoslavica XV/2007, nos. 1-2 Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I am glad to announce the publication of the next (XV/2007) issue of the Palaeoslavica: International Journal for the Study of Slavic Medieval Literature, History, Language and Ethnology. No. 1 of Palaeoslavica XV consists of four sections. The Articles section contains a study by O. Tolochko who proposes a new look at the relationship between the Short and the Expanded Redactions of Pravda Ruskaia; a study by V. Chentsova who investigates an engrossing tale about bringing the miracle-making icon of the Theo-tokos of Blachernas from Greece to Moscow in the 17th c.; and a study by A. Strakhov who analyzes several Eastern Slavic marriage rituals dealing with horse collars in terms of their cleansing functions. The Publications section presents Слово о послушании by John Climacus following to the oldest extant Slavic manuscript (publ. and comm. by T.Popova) and folklore narratives about mermaids (русалки) recorded in Central Russia (publ. by E. Samodelova) and in Belаrus' (publ. by G. Lopatin). The Speculum section discusses the history of the word лафа and points to various mistakes in its lexicographic-al treatment. The Miscellanea section contains notes by P. Schreiner, C.M. Vakareliyska, et al. No. 2 of Palaeoslavica XV also consists of four sections. The Articles section presents a study by D. Christians in which she reconstructs the Канон Мефодию Патарско-му following the extant Slavic manuscripts; an article by T. Vilkul that analyzes the relationship between PVL and Old Russian Khronographs; and a study by O. Strakhov featuring a detailed discussion of titles of Russian Patri-archs from 1589 to 1700. The Publications section pre-sents some seventeenth-century texts from Siberia, and a description of present-day calendar rituals attested in the Komi region. The Speculum section contains two re-views: the first by J. Fellerer who analyzes A. Danylen-ko's recent book on various questions of Ukrainian philo-logy, and by D. Ostrowski who re-evaluates the relation-ship between the Galician-Volynian Chronicle and the Life of Alexander Nevskii. The Miscellanea section con-tains notes by F. Klimchuk and A. Strakhov. For details and a complete Table of Contents see www.palaeoslavica.com Or write to: palaeoslavica at gmail.com, strakhov at palaeoslavica.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dworth at UCLA.EDU Fri Nov 16 17:36:21 2007 From: dworth at UCLA.EDU (dworth at UCLA.EDU) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:36:21 -0800 Subject: Palaeoslavica XV/2007, nos. 1-2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dr. Strakhov, Please send me volume XV 1-2. If possible, I'd like you to send me each issue as it appears, without special requests. Thanks, Dean Worth Quoting "Strakhov, Olga" : > Dear colleagues, > > I am glad to announce the publication of the next (XV/2007) issue of > the Palaeoslavica: International Journal for the Study of Slavic > Medieval Literature, History, Language and Ethnology. > > > > No. 1 of Palaeoslavica XV consists of four sections. > > The Articles section contains a study by O. Tolochko who proposes a > new look at the relationship between the Short and the Expanded > Redactions of Pravda Ruskaia; a study by V. Chentsova who > investigates an engrossing tale about bringing the miracle-making > icon of the Theo-tokos of Blachernas from Greece to Moscow in the > 17th c.; and a study by A. Strakhov who analyzes several Eastern > Slavic marriage rituals dealing with horse collars in terms of their > cleansing functions. The Publications section presents ????? ? > ?????????? by John Climacus following to the oldest extant Slavic > manuscript (publ. and comm. by T.Popova) and folklore narratives > about mermaids (???????) recorded in Central Russia (publ. by E. > Samodelova) and in Bel?rus' (publ. by G. Lopatin). The Speculum > section discusses the history of the word ???? and points to various > mistakes in its lexicographic-al treatment. The Miscellanea section > contains notes by P. Schreiner, C.M. Vakareliyska, et al. > > > > No. 2 of Palaeoslavica XV also consists of four sections. > > The Articles section presents a study by D. Christians in which she > reconstructs the ????? ??????? ????????-?? following the extant > Slavic manuscripts; an article by T. Vilkul that analyzes the > relationship between PVL and Old Russian Khronographs; and a study > by O. Strakhov featuring a detailed discussion of titles of Russian > Patri-archs from 1589 to 1700. The Publications section pre-sents > some seventeenth-century texts from Siberia, and a description of > present-day calendar rituals attested in the Komi region. The > Speculum section contains two re-views: the first by J. Fellerer who > analyzes A. Danylen-ko's recent book on various questions of > Ukrainian philo-logy, and by D. Ostrowski who re-evaluates the > relation-ship between the Galician-Volynian Chronicle and the Life > of Alexander Nevskii. The Miscellanea section con-tains notes by F. > Klimchuk and A. Strakhov. > > > > For details and a complete Table of Contents see www.palaeoslavica.com > > Or write to: palaeoslavica at gmail.com, strakhov at palaeoslavica.com > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mdenner at STETSON.EDU Fri Nov 16 17:47:05 2007 From: mdenner at STETSON.EDU (Michael Denner) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:47:05 -0500 Subject: Increased Enrollments article In-Reply-To: A<091400CA0B9FCA458659C2631E7820AA81950F@EAFILE2.erskine.net> Message-ID: A few, probably inchoate thoughts on the topics broached earlier. First - here at Stetson began teaching Arabic and Chinese three years ago. At first, I was very worried about the effect on enrollments in Russian. We use Fulbright instructors since, practically speaking, there are no available Arabic or Chinese instructors from US institutions... or at least none that WE could afford. Enrollments were strong, initially, with both courses hitting the cap of 15. However, very quickly students realized that Arabic and Chinese are REALLY hard. (I seem to remember that both require at least twice as many contact hours to achieve 2 as Russian.) What's more, the quality of the teaching was very weak -- native speakers make relatively ineffective elementary-level instructors, and these instructors had little if any classroom experience. Both the Arabic and Mandarin instructors are now advised to sit in regularly on my classes for observation. Currently, after two years of problems and dissatisfaction, both Arabic and Chinese are significantly underenrolled, each with about 3 students left in the first semester. Since the programs are very inexpensive to maintain and look great on paper, I believe our administration will continue to support them. However, they represent no "threat" to my enrollments. Russian language, if well taught and supported by a strong program of cultural activities and area-studies courses, can deal with the competition. We're at capacity teaching Russian language and area-study courses. My elementary Russian class closed at 20 this fall (17 continuing on to spring), and my Russian film class has closed for the fall semester. Though our upper-level courses are a bit underenrolled (we have a one-year requirement), we have at any time a dozen or more majors... in a regional university of 2000 with only one Russian language instructor, that makes ours a fairly efficient program. On the wisdom of choosing a language because it's "in demand": I had a student come into my office a few weeks ago during advising week, and ask me what language she should study. She said -- everyone says we need to study Arabic and Chinese. I told her this anecdote: When I was a Political Science major in 1992 at Indiana (a top program), I remember VERY clearly that we were instructed, regularly, that the two most important languages to study were German and Japanese -- these would be the key languages to study if we wanted to do important policy analysis and get jobs in commerce. (Think of the context 15 years ago.) In retrospect, of course, that sounds ludicrous. I do not remember _a single time_ being told that Arabic or Chinese would be important... My point was that prevailing opinion and conventional wisdom is very often completely wrong. I advised the student instead to study language with a good teacher, one that piqued her interest. ~mad ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Dr. Michael A. Denner Editor, Tolstoy Studies Journal Director, University Honors Program Contact Information: Russian Studies Program Stetson University Campus Box 8361 DeLand, FL 32720-3756 386.822.7381 (department) 386.822.7265 (direct line) 386.822.7380 (fax) www.stetson.edu/~mdenner ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fsciacca at HAMILTON.EDU Fri Nov 16 18:04:41 2007 From: fsciacca at HAMILTON.EDU (Franklin Sciacca) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 13:04:41 -0500 Subject: to google In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Is there a verb "to google" in Russian? Thanks, Frank -- Franklin Sciacca Program in Russian Studies Hamilton College 198 College Hill Road Clinton, New York 13323 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Fri Nov 16 18:12:41 2007 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 13:12:41 -0500 Subject: to google In-Reply-To: <473DDBB9.7080003@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: Гуглить http://www.google.com/search?q=%D0%B3%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%82% D1%8C&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en- US:official&client=firefox-a On Nov 16, 2007, at 1:04 PM, Franklin Sciacca wrote: > Is there a verb "to google" in Russian? > > Thanks, Frank > > -- > Franklin Sciacca > Program in Russian Studies > Hamilton College > 198 College Hill Road > Clinton, New York 13323 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- Alina Israeli LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW Washington DC. 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Fri Nov 16 18:18:46 2007 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 13:18:46 -0500 Subject: to google In-Reply-To: <473DDBB9.7080003@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: It even got to this: Google запрещает «гуглить» http://habrahabr.ru/ blog/columns/6064.html On Nov 16, 2007, at 1:04 PM, Franklin Sciacca wrote: > Is there a verb "to google" in Russian? > Alina Israeli LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW Washington DC. 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From n_shevchuk at YAHOO.COM Fri Nov 16 18:27:15 2007 From: n_shevchuk at YAHOO.COM (Nina Shevchuk) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 10:27:15 -0800 Subject: to google Message-ID: Best, I would also say (and have heard) гугльнуть. Best, Nina Shevchuk-Murray ----- Original Message ---- From: Franklin Sciacca To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 12:04:41 PM Subject: [SEELANGS] to google Is there a verb "to google" in Russian? Thanks, Frank -- Franklin Sciacca Program in Russian Studies Hamilton College 198 College Hill Road Clinton, New York 13323 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Fri Nov 16 18:26:34 2007 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:26:34 +0000 Subject: to google In-Reply-To: <473DDBB9.7080003@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: I have found on the net both guglit' and iandeksirovat' (i.e. to search with Yandex, which may well be more used by Russians for purely Russian material). Also zaguglit', proguglit', poguglit', naguglit' - all rather charming really. Will Franklin Sciacca wrote: > Is there a verb "to google" in Russian? > > Thanks, Frank > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Fri Nov 16 18:44:16 2007 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 13:44:16 -0500 Subject: to google In-Reply-To: <110214.11162.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Results 1 - 10 of about 66 for гугльнуть. Results 1 - 10 of about 35,000 for гуглить. On Nov 16, 2007, at 1:27 PM, Nina Shevchuk wrote: > Best, > I would also say (and have heard) гугльнуть. > Alina Israeli LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW Washington DC. 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From david.riesenberg at GMAIL.COM Fri Nov 16 18:53:56 2007 From: david.riesenberg at GMAIL.COM (david riesenberg) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:53:56 +0300 Subject: to google In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does anybody know anything about the phonetic mechanisms by which these silly new verbs or nouns (from the West or elsewhere) land on their eventual Russian morphology? How did "parkirovat'" get its "ir" and "ov" when "guglit'" has avoided them completely? Why is the " nut' " so very rare for the new additions? Also - what goes into the 'H' transformation into "G" or "Kh?" Why do we have Gitler and Sherlock Kholmes instead of Khitler and Sherlock Golmes? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From asred at COX.NET Fri Nov 16 19:19:17 2007 From: asred at COX.NET (Steve Marder) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:19:17 -0500 Subject: to google In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > How did "parkirovat'" get its "ir" and "ov" when "guglit'" has avoided > them completely? That's not entirely so. There _is_ a verb "guglirovat'", although stating this fact should not be taken as an endorsement. "Guglit'" reigns supreme. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Fri Nov 16 21:57:38 2007 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:57:38 -0500 Subject: to google In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Perfective is прогуглить Alina Israeli wrote: > Гуглить > http://www.google.com/search?q=%D0%B3%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%82% > D1%8C&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en- > US:official&client=firefox-a > > On Nov 16, 2007, at 1:04 PM, Franklin Sciacca wrote: > >> Is there a verb "to google" in Russian? >> >> Thanks, Frank >> >> -- >> Franklin Sciacca >> Program in Russian Studies >> Hamilton College >> 198 College Hill Road >> Clinton, New York 13323 >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- > > > Alina Israeli > LFS, American University > 4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW > Washington DC. 20016 > (202) 885-2387 > fax (202) 885-1076 > aisrael at american.edu > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Fri Nov 16 22:00:42 2007 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:00:42 -0500 Subject: to google In-Reply-To: <20071116141917.C7LDP.60803.root@eastrmwml21.mgt.cox.net> Message-ID: Parkirovat' is bad: too cumbersome. Parkovat' is way better. The mechanism there is the same as in polish, I presume. The ova suffix in Russian, too allows to domesticate foreign root verbs (like tancevat', etc.: not just risovat', etc.) Steve Marder wrote: >>How did "parkirovat'" get its "ir" and "ov" when "guglit'" has avoided >>them completely? >> >> > >That's not entirely so. There _is_ a verb "guglirovat'", although stating this fact should not be taken as an endorsement. "Guglit'" reigns supreme. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Fri Nov 16 20:44:17 2007 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 20:44:17 +0000 Subject: to google In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Why silly? They are inevitable, natural, even necessary. I have found 'razguglennaia informatsiia', which would require a much longer phrase if expressed in any other way. And naguglivat'sia is a very satisfying verb. Gugl'nut' one would expect to be a semelfactive verb and thus less used. Personally I find the alternative guglianut', also to be found, much more euphonious. Guglirovat' in fact can also be seen. The potential paradigm of a new verb using a single-syllable stem like this, with a sound that invites analogy with guliat' and its variants, is really quite large - Russian is a wonderful language with many productive processes. These are not phonetic but morphological mechanisms, although the guglit' form does suggest that the alternative form, gugl', which can be found, is how most Russians hear the final English l even if they spell it more often as gugl. Verbs in -irovat' were, I seem to remember from my student days, 18th/19th century loan words from German verbs in -ieren, and analogy has done the rest. As to the h>g transformation, the usual explanation, as far as I recall, is to do with Ukrainian/South Russian pronunciation of g in the 17th-18 c. I do remember hearing a lecture about Evelyn Waugh in Leningrad University in 1962 when the lecturer pronounced his subject's name as Evlin Wog. He is usually referred to now more phonetically as the oriental-looking Uo. Given that great writer's snobbishness about being an English gentleman both forms no doubt have him spluttering in his grave. Will david riesenberg wrote: > Does anybody know anything about the phonetic mechanisms by which > these silly new verbs or nouns (from the West or elsewhere) land on > their eventual Russian morphology? > > How did "parkirovat'" get its "ir" and "ov" when "guglit'" has avoided > them completely? Why is the " nut' " so very rare for the new > additions? > > > > Also - what goes into the 'H' transformation into "G" or "Kh?" Why do > we have Gitler and Sherlock Kholmes instead of Khitler and Sherlock > Golmes? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Fri Nov 16 23:29:56 2007 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:29:56 -0500 Subject: to google In-Reply-To: <473E0121.7090102@sas.ac.uk> Message-ID: William Ryan wrote: > ... As to the h>g transformation, the usual explanation, as far as I > recall, is to do with Ukrainian/South Russian pronunciation of g in > the 17th-18 c. I do remember hearing a lecture about Evelyn Waugh in > Leningrad University in 1962 when the lecturer pronounced his > subject's name as Evlin Wog. He is usually referred to now more > phonetically as the oriental-looking Uo. Given that great writer's > snobbishness about being an English gentleman both forms no doubt > have him spluttering in his grave. On a barely related topic, I've always wondered whether Waugh's parents "gave him a girl's name" or the name has evolved over time. I see from his bio that his first name was "Arthur" and "Evelyn" was his middle name, but I can't tell whether he was given the latter after a grandmother or something. And with a father named "Arthur" it would be reasonable for him to seek something more distinctive. Anyway, just musing in ignorance. Anyone know the answers? -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Sat Nov 17 00:58:55 2007 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 00:58:55 +0000 Subject: to google In-Reply-To: <473E27F4.2010404@pbg-translations.com> Message-ID: Evelyn is not common nowadays for boys but it used to be. Compare Leslie, Vivian, Sidney, Marion (John Wayne was Marion), all old hermaphrodite names. Will Paul B. Gallagher wrote: > William Ryan wrote: > >> ... As to the h>g transformation, the usual explanation, as far as I >> recall, is to do with Ukrainian/South Russian pronunciation of g in >> the 17th-18 c. I do remember hearing a lecture about Evelyn Waugh in >> Leningrad University in 1962 when the lecturer pronounced his >> subject's name as Evlin Wog. He is usually referred to now more >> phonetically as the oriental-looking Uo. Given that great writer's >> snobbishness about being an English gentleman both forms no doubt >> have him spluttering in his grave. > > On a barely related topic, I've always wondered whether Waugh's > parents "gave him a girl's name" or the name has evolved over time. I > see from his bio that his first name was "Arthur" and "Evelyn" was his > middle name, but I can't tell whether he was given the latter after a > grandmother or something. And with a father named "Arthur" it would be > reasonable for him to seek something more distinctive. > > Anyway, just musing in ignorance. Anyone know the answers? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kbtrans at COX.NET Sat Nov 17 01:21:48 2007 From: kbtrans at COX.NET (Kim Braithwaite) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:21:48 -0800 Subject: to google Message-ID: And don't forget Joyce (e.g., Kilmer). Kim Braithwaite, Translator "Good is better than evil, because it's nicer" - Mammy Yokum (Al Capp) ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Ryan" To: Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] to google > Evelyn is not common nowadays for boys but it used to be. Compare Leslie, > Vivian, Sidney, Marion (John Wayne was Marion), all old hermaphrodite > names. > Will > > > Paul B. Gallagher wrote: >> William Ryan wrote: >> >>> ... As to the h>g transformation, the usual explanation, as far as I >>> recall, is to do with Ukrainian/South Russian pronunciation of g in >>> the 17th-18 c. I do remember hearing a lecture about Evelyn Waugh in >>> Leningrad University in 1962 when the lecturer pronounced his >>> subject's name as Evlin Wog. He is usually referred to now more >>> phonetically as the oriental-looking Uo. Given that great writer's >>> snobbishness about being an English gentleman both forms no doubt >>> have him spluttering in his grave. >> >> On a barely related topic, I've always wondered whether Waugh's parents >> "gave him a girl's name" or the name has evolved over time. I see from >> his bio that his first name was "Arthur" and "Evelyn" was his middle >> name, but I can't tell whether he was given the latter after a >> grandmother or something. And with a father named "Arthur" it would be >> reasonable for him to seek something more distinctive. >> >> Anyway, just musing in ignorance. Anyone know the answers? >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From gladney at UIUC.EDU Sat Nov 17 17:08:34 2007 From: gladney at UIUC.EDU (Frank Y Gladney) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 11:08:34 -0600 Subject: to google Message-ID: William Ryan writes: >>Gugl'nut' one would expect to be a semelfactive verb and thus less >>used. Personally I find the alternative guglianut', also to be found, >>much more euphonious. [...] These are not phonetic but >>>>>>>>>>morphological mechanisms [,,,]. These two forms may in fact be related by phonetic (euphonious) mechanisms. _Gugl'nut'_ is unavoidably trisyllabic. My off-line correspondent informs me it is pronounced as if spelled _gugyl'nut'_. That spelling shows the [g] being released before the coronal occlusion for the [l'] is formed. But if the [l'] occlusion is formed before the [g] is released, this results in a (potentially) syllabie [l'], which is realized as [l'i], corresponding to the spelling _guglianut'_. Frank ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From gladney at UIUC.EDU Sat Nov 17 17:10:50 2007 From: gladney at UIUC.EDU (Frank Y Gladney) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 11:10:50 -0600 Subject: to Google Message-ID: William Ryan writes: >>Gugl'nut' one would expect to be a semelfactive verb and thus less >>used. Personally I find the alternative guglianut', also to be found, >>much more euphonious. [...] These are not phonetic but >>>>>>>>>>morphological mechanisms [,,,]. These two forms may in fact be related by phonetic (euphonious) mechanisms. _Gugl'nut'_ is unavoidably trisyllabic.  My off-line correspondent informs me it is pronounced as if spelled _gugyl'nut'_.  That spelling shows the [g] being released before the coronal occlusion for the [l'] is formed.  But if the [l'] occlusion is formed before the [g] is released, this results in a (potentially) syllabie [l'], which is realized as [l'i], corresponding to the spelling _guglianut'_. Frank ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Sat Nov 17 17:33:45 2007 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:33:45 -0500 Subject: to google In-Reply-To: <473E3CCF.3060203@sas.ac.uk> Message-ID: William Ryan wrote: > Evelyn is not common nowadays for boys but it used to be. Compare > Leslie, Vivian, Sidney, Marion (John Wayne was Marion), all old > hermaphrodite names. Thanks. I had no idea Evelyn, Vivian, or Marion could ever be masculine; I did know Leslie and Sidney swung both ways. ;-) Saturday Night Live had a series of skits one year about "Pat" and "Chris" and a couple of other characters with intentionally ambiguous names where the other characters struggled to classify them. Pretty lame, but whatever. ;-) -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Sat Nov 17 20:05:58 2007 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 20:05:58 +0000 Subject: to google In-Reply-To: <20071117110834.AYQ83992@expms1.cites.uiuc.edu> Message-ID: An entirely convincing explanation. Thank you. Clearly gugl is a lexeme for linguists to watch, and perhaps use as an example in class - it promises a multitude of forms, even if some of those currently on the net (razguglivat', pereguglit', obguglennyi for example) are probably facetious. Will gladney at UIUC.EDU wrote: > William Ryan writes: > > >>> Gugl'nut' one would expect to be a semelfactive verb and thus less >>> used. Personally I find the alternative guglianut', also to be found, >>> much more euphonious. [...] These are not phonetic but >>>>>>>>>>morphological mechanisms [,,,]. >>> > > These two forms may in fact be related by phonetic (euphonious) mechanisms. _Gugl'nut'_ is unavoidably trisyllabic. My off-line correspondent informs me it is pronounced as if spelled _gugyl'nut'_. That spelling shows the [g] being released before the coronal occlusion for the [l'] is formed. But if the [l'] occlusion is formed before the [g] is released, this results in a (potentially) syllabie [l'], which is realized as [l'i], corresponding to the spelling _guglianut'_. > > Frank > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Sat Nov 17 20:23:49 2007 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 20:23:49 +0000 Subject: to google In-Reply-To: <473F25F9.20105@pbg-translations.com> Message-ID: There are more. Not just Marion but also Robin - the Sheriff of Nottingham must have got very confused at times. Will Paul B. Gallagher wrote: > William Ryan wrote: > >> Evelyn is not common nowadays for boys but it used to be. Compare >> Leslie, Vivian, Sidney, Marion (John Wayne was Marion), all old >> hermaphrodite names. > > Thanks. I had no idea Evelyn, Vivian, or Marion could ever be > masculine; I did know Leslie and Sidney swung both ways. ;-) > > Saturday Night Live had a series of skits one year about "Pat" and > "Chris" and a couple of other characters with intentionally ambiguous > names where the other characters struggled to classify them. Pretty > lame, but whatever. ;-) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jdingley at YORKU.CA Sat Nov 17 21:33:09 2007 From: jdingley at YORKU.CA (jdingley at YORKU.CA) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 13:33:09 -0800 Subject: to google In-Reply-To: <473F49A6.3030902@sas.ac.uk> Message-ID: Perhaps I missed it, but what stress does guglit' have? Stem or ending? If ending, then I would assume shifting, i.e. guglyu', gu'glish' John Dingley --------------- http://momiji.yorku.ca/jding07.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Sat Nov 17 21:37:50 2007 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 16:37:50 -0500 Subject: to google Message-ID: In the pair gugl'nut'/guglit', the stress is on the last syllable. In the pair proguglit'/guglit', on the first of the stem (-U-). ----- Original Message ----- From: jdingley at YORKU.CA Date: Saturday, November 17, 2007 4:33 pm Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] to google > Perhaps I missed it, but what stress does guglit' have? > Stem or ending? If ending, then I would assume shifting, > i.e. guglyu', gu'glish' > > John Dingley > > --------------- > http://momiji.yorku.ca/jding07.html > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS > Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From amarilis at BUGBYTES.COM Sat Nov 17 23:03:13 2007 From: amarilis at BUGBYTES.COM (B. Amarilis Lugo de Fabritz) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 18:03:13 -0500 Subject: part time lecturer needed. In-Reply-To: <473F49A6.3030902@sas.ac.uk> Message-ID: Dear SEELANGS members in the metro DC area. Howard University is in need of a part time lecturer for next semester. The assignment would last one semester. They would be teaching second semester of first and second year Russian. The person should hopefully be abd or phd, or have a master degree with some classroom teaching experience. If anyone is interested, please write back to me off-list and I will give you a summary of the current situation. Amarilis Lugo de Fabritz Lecturer, Howard University ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mstaube at MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL Sat Nov 17 22:54:36 2007 From: mstaube at MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL (Moshe Taube) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 00:54:36 +0200 Subject: to google In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In the latest newcomer to SEELANGS, Modern Hebrew (which according to Paul Wexler is a Slavic language, cf. http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/ yedion/03-04/syllabi/single_syllabi/06273138.html ) we do it the old fashioned Semitic way: we extract the consonantal root, G, G, L, and then conjugate it in the pi'el formation, hence gigalti, gigalta, gigalt, megagelim, legagel etc. Cheers, Moshe Taube On Nov 17, 2007, at 11:37 PM, Olga Meerson wrote: > In the pair gugl'nut'/guglit', the stress is on the last syllable. > In the pair proguglit'/guglit', on the first of the stem (-U-). > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: jdingley at YORKU.CA > Date: Saturday, November 17, 2007 4:33 pm > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] to google > >> Perhaps I missed it, but what stress does guglit' have? >> Stem or ending? If ending, then I would assume shifting, >> i.e. guglyu', gu'glish' >> >> John Dingley >> >> --------------- >> http://momiji.yorku.ca/jding07.html >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your >> subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS >> Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----- >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface > at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- Professor Moshe Taube Tamara and Saveli Grinberg Chair in Russian Studies Dept. of Linguistics / Dept. of Russian and Slavic Studies Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Mt. Scopus 91905 ISRAEL email: mstaube at mscc.huji.ac.il tel. 972-2-5883835 (w.) tel. 972-2-6513819 (h.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From irina.dolgova at YALE.EDU Sun Nov 18 00:56:53 2007 From: irina.dolgova at YALE.EDU (irina.dolgova at YALE.EDU) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:56:53 -0500 Subject: Increased Enrollments article In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Michael, Here is something I came across dealing with similar issues. It's a public website running by Michigan State University. Among other valuable things, there is a crash course for new language instructors on this site. Don't be discouraged if you don't find the specific language of instructions because the crash course is in English. You'll also find excellent materials for Russian. http://clear.msu.edu Good luck with everything, Irina. > A few, probably inchoate thoughts on the topics broached earlier. > > First - here at Stetson began teaching Arabic and Chinese three years > ago. At first, I was very worried about the effect on enrollments in > Russian. We use Fulbright instructors since, practically speaking, there > are no available Arabic or Chinese instructors from US institutions... > or at least none that WE could afford. > > Enrollments were strong, initially, with both courses hitting the cap of > 15. However, very quickly students realized that Arabic and Chinese are > REALLY hard. (I seem to remember that both require at least twice as > many contact hours to achieve 2 as Russian.) What's more, the quality of > the teaching was very weak -- native speakers make relatively > ineffective elementary-level instructors, and these instructors had > little if any classroom experience. Both the Arabic and Mandarin > instructors are now advised to sit in regularly on my classes for > observation. > > Currently, after two years of problems and dissatisfaction, both Arabic > and Chinese are significantly underenrolled, each with about 3 students > left in the first semester. Since the programs are very inexpensive to > maintain and look great on paper, I believe our administration will > continue to support them. However, they represent no "threat" to my > enrollments. Russian language, if well taught and supported by a strong > program of cultural activities and area-studies courses, can deal with > the competition. > > We're at capacity teaching Russian language and area-study courses. My > elementary Russian class closed at 20 this fall (17 continuing on to > spring), and my Russian film class has closed for the fall semester. > Though our upper-level courses are a bit underenrolled (we have a > one-year requirement), we have at any time a dozen or more majors... in > a regional university of 2000 with only one Russian language instructor, > that makes ours a fairly efficient program. > > On the wisdom of choosing a language because it's "in demand": I had a > student come into my office a few weeks ago during advising week, and > ask me what language she should study. She said -- everyone says we need > to study Arabic and Chinese. I told her this anecdote: > > When I was a Political Science major in 1992 at Indiana (a top program), > I remember VERY clearly that we were instructed, regularly, that the two > most important languages to study were German and Japanese -- these > would be the key languages to study if we wanted to do important policy > analysis and get jobs in commerce. (Think of the context 15 years ago.) > In retrospect, of course, that sounds ludicrous. I do not remember _a > single time_ being told that Arabic or Chinese would be important... My > point was that prevailing opinion and conventional wisdom is very often > completely wrong. I advised the student instead to study language with a > good teacher, one that piqued her interest. > > > ~mad > ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* > Dr. Michael A. Denner > Editor, Tolstoy Studies Journal > Director, University Honors Program > > > Contact Information: > Russian Studies Program > Stetson University > Campus Box 8361 > DeLand, FL 32720-3756 > 386.822.7381 (department) > 386.822.7265 (direct line) > 386.822.7380 (fax) > > www.stetson.edu/~mdenner > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Sun Nov 18 04:09:40 2007 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 23:09:40 -0500 Subject: to google Message-ID: The verbal noun is then giggul (for the activity of Googleing)? If something is well-known and attested through google, it is guggal. My favorite in Hebrew is still the verbal noun for de-bugging a computer--dibbug. Sounds almost like dibbuq but means the exact opposite! PS Professor Taube, you are my hero in your approach to Judeo-Slavica. o.m. ----- Original Message ----- From: Moshe Taube Date: Saturday, November 17, 2007 5:54 pm Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] to google > In the latest newcomer to SEELANGS, Modern Hebrew (which according > to > Paul Wexler is a Slavic language, cf. > http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/ > yedion/03-04/syllabi/single_syllabi/06273138.html ) we do it the > old > fashioned Semitic way: we extract the consonantal root, G, G, L, > and > then conjugate it in the pi'el formation, hence gigalti, gigalta, > gigalt, megagelim, legagel etc. > > Cheers, > Moshe Taube > > On Nov 17, 2007, at 11:37 PM, Olga Meerson wrote: > > > In the pair gugl'nut'/guglit', the stress is on the last > syllable. > > In the pair proguglit'/guglit', on the first of the stem (-U-). > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: jdingley at YORKU.CA > > Date: Saturday, November 17, 2007 4:33 pm > > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] to google > > > >> Perhaps I missed it, but what stress does guglit' have? > >> Stem or ending? If ending, then I would assume shifting, > >> i.e. guglyu', gu'glish' > >> > >> John Dingley > >> > >> --------------- > >> http://momiji.yorku.ca/jding07.html > >> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > >> ----- > >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > >> subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS > >> Web Interface at: > >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > >> ----- > >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---- > > --- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > > subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web > Interface > > at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---- > > --- > > Professor Moshe Taube > Tamara and Saveli Grinberg Chair in Russian Studies > Dept. of Linguistics / Dept. of Russian and Slavic Studies > Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Mt. Scopus 91905 ISRAEL > email: mstaube at mscc.huji.ac.il > tel. 972-2-5883835 (w.) > tel. 972-2-6513819 (h.) > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS > Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From colkitto at ROGERS.COM Sun Nov 18 07:17:19 2007 From: colkitto at ROGERS.COM (colkitto) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 02:17:19 -0500 Subject: translations into Russian Message-ID: A nice collection of Clark Ashton Smith's Zothique tales are available in Russian, including the classics The Black Abbot of Puthuum, The Charnel God, The Isle of the Torturers, Xeethra and also The Dark Eidolon, The Death of Ilalotha, The Garden of Adompha, The Last Hieroglyph, The Master of the Crabs, Morthylla, Necromancy in Naat, The Tomb Spawn, The Seed from the Sepulchre, here http://www.litportal.ru/genre35/author2667/read/page/2/book12716.html supplementing the meagre offering here http://www.eldritchdark.com/writings/translations/russian/ which also includes some Czech ones http://www.eldritchdark.com/writings/translations/czech/ classics are A Vintage from Atlantis and the Empire of the Necromancers Legenda o Mmatmuorovi a Sodosmovi prijde k zivotu az v posledních dnech pozemských, ..... Díky, kamaráde, ale já víno nepiji, ani kdyz je to nejvzácnejsí Kanárské, nebo nejstarsí Amontilladské. Víno je posmevac, opojný nápoj krikloun.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mstaube at MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL Sun Nov 18 16:29:09 2007 From: mstaube at MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL (Moshe Taube) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 18:29:09 +0200 Subject: to google In-Reply-To: <10415a101977.10197710415a@imap.georgetown.edu> Message-ID: Hi Olga Giggul it is indeed (as attested by a google search). It's good to see someone there in the dark reads your postings. The reactions on Wexler which I was kind of expecting have not materialized yet, though. Thanks for your kind words on my contribution to Judeo-Slavica. For a moment I felt rather embarrassed, thinking that you posted your reply through SEELANGS for everyone to see. best Moshe On Nov 18, 2007, at 6:09 AM, Olga Meerson wrote: > The verbal noun is then giggul (for the activity of Googleing)? If > something is well-known and attested through google, it is guggal. > My favorite in Hebrew is still the verbal noun for de-bugging a > computer--dibbug. Sounds almost like dibbuq but means the exact > opposite! > PS Professor Taube, you are my hero in your approach to Judeo-Slavica. > o.m. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Moshe Taube > Date: Saturday, November 17, 2007 5:54 pm > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] to google > >> In the latest newcomer to SEELANGS, Modern Hebrew (which according >> to >> Paul Wexler is a Slavic language, cf. >> http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/ >> yedion/03-04/syllabi/single_syllabi/06273138.html ) we do it the >> old >> fashioned Semitic way: we extract the consonantal root, G, G, L, >> and >> then conjugate it in the pi'el formation, hence gigalti, gigalta, >> gigalt, megagelim, legagel etc. >> >> Cheers, >> Moshe Taube >> >> On Nov 17, 2007, at 11:37 PM, Olga Meerson wrote: >> >>> In the pair gugl'nut'/guglit', the stress is on the last >> syllable. >>> In the pair proguglit'/guglit', on the first of the stem (-U-). >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: jdingley at YORKU.CA >>> Date: Saturday, November 17, 2007 4:33 pm >>> Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] to google >>> >>>> Perhaps I missed it, but what stress does guglit' have? >>>> Stem or ending? If ending, then I would assume shifting, >>>> i.e. guglyu', gu'glish' >>>> >>>> John Dingley >>>> >>>> --------------- >>>> http://momiji.yorku.ca/jding07.html >>>> >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >>>> ----- >>>> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your >>>> subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS >>>> Web Interface at: >>>> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >>>> ----- >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> ---- >>> --- >>> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your >>> subscription >>> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web >> Interface >>> at: >>> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> ---- >>> --- >> >> Professor Moshe Taube >> Tamara and Saveli Grinberg Chair in Russian Studies >> Dept. of Linguistics / Dept. of Russian and Slavic Studies >> Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Mt. Scopus 91905 ISRAEL >> email: mstaube at mscc.huji.ac.il >> tel. 972-2-5883835 (w.) >> tel. 972-2-6513819 (h.) >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your >> subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS >> Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----- >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface > at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- Professor Moshe Taube Tamara and Saveli Grinberg Chair in Russian Studies Dept. of Linguistics / Dept. of Russian and Slavic Studies Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Mt. Scopus 91905 ISRAEL email: mstaube at mscc.huji.ac.il tel. 972-2-5883835 (w.) tel. 972-2-6513819 (h.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mstaube at MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL Sun Nov 18 16:36:19 2007 From: mstaube at MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL (Moshe Taube) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 18:36:19 +0200 Subject: apology Message-ID: Oops. I apologize for inadvertenty posting a private reply to the whole list. M. Taube ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ruskychris at GMAIL.COM Sun Nov 18 22:37:08 2007 From: ruskychris at GMAIL.COM (Chris Rusky) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:37:08 -0800 Subject: Study Russian in Russia Message-ID: I am looking to schedule a month long in-country cultural/language immersion in Saint Petersburg Feb-April time frame. I'm considering the Center of Russian Language and Culture http://www.crlc.pu.ru/ Has anyone had any experience with this organization? Any other schools/programs that anyone would recommend? Thank you, C. Roush ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From klinela at COMCAST.NET Mon Nov 19 03:51:51 2007 From: klinela at COMCAST.NET (Laura Kline) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:51:51 -0500 Subject: Literary texts and movies on Russian business culture In-Reply-To: <4387140a0711181437r1716a54eo2ebacf1e394e63ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear All, Can anyone recommend any literary texts or movies which would shed light on contemporary Russian business culture - preferably in English? Thank you in advance! Laura Kline Lecturer in Russian Wayne State University ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jmcguckin at CIEE.ORG Mon Nov 19 09:38:55 2007 From: jmcguckin at CIEE.ORG (Jarlath McGuckin) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 03:38:55 -0600 Subject: Study Russian in Russia Message-ID: Hi Chris, The Center of Russian Language and Culture (CRLC) is a part of St. Petersburg State University and the Council on International Educational Exchange (CIEE) has enjoyed a relationship with the CRLC for many years. CIEE maintains a study center at the CRLC where students may sign up for a semester or year in the Russian Language program or the Russian Area Studies program. This year marks the 40th anniversary of the CIEE Study Center in St. Petersburg. The CIEE Russian Language program is an intensive course of study supplemented by field trips and weekend excursions. All students take Grammar, Conversation and Phonetics, and two additional elective courses. Electives include: - RUSI 3003: Russian Word Formation - RUSI 3004: Russian Civilization and Current Press - RUSI 3005: Russian Culture: Visual and Performing Arts - LITT 3001/3102: Analytical Readings, Russian Literature 19th or 20th c. All our students live with Russian host families and our staff set up a wide array of extra-curricular activities to supplement in-class study. Internships and volunteer activities from previous semesters have included: - Intranet designer for Evidence Clinical and Pharmaceutical Research - Copy editors and contributors to the St. Petersburg Times, Мой Район (Moi Raion), U Journal (Stockholm School of Economics Journal), and Neva News - Language instructors at St. Petersburg State University's Philological Faculty - Participation in the St. Petersburg State U. Orchestra and private classes in dance, balalaika, and circus performing We provide services at the university, such as free WiFi, a library, a study room, a cultural reimbursement program, "russkiy stol" and round-the-clock staff support to assist with language learning and cultural adjustment. For more information about the CIEE program at St. Petersburg State University, please visit: http://www.ciee.org/program_search/program_detail.aspx? program_id=73&type=part I look forward to hearing from you, Jarlath ------------------ Jarlath McGuckin Resident Coordinator CIEE St. Petersburg ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From reei at INDIANA.EDU Mon Nov 19 13:01:51 2007 From: reei at INDIANA.EDU (REEI) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 08:01:51 -0500 Subject: Literary texts and movies on Russian business culture In-Reply-To: <00ba01c82a5f$85301640$6a00a8c0@yourf78bf48ce2> Message-ID: Hi Laura, The movie "Oligarkh" immediately comes to mind--the English version in our collection here is entitled "Tycoon: A New Russian." Some of the works of Evgenii Grishkovetz, e.g. "Rubashka" and stories in a collection whose title escapes me, shed light on the mentality of Russian businesspeople in their 30s or so. Though I haven't seen it, I'm pretty sure the recent hit TV series "Ne rodis' krasivoi" takes place in a contemporary business setting (and there are others). Best wishes, Mark Trotter Assistant Director/Outreach Coordinator Indiana University martrott at indiana.edu ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Laura Kline [klinela at COMCAST.NET] Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 10:51 PM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: [SEELANGS] Literary texts and movies on Russian business culture Dear All, Can anyone recommend any literary texts or movies which would shed light on contemporary Russian business culture - preferably in English? Thank you in advance! Laura Kline Lecturer in Russian Wayne State University ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From brifkin at TEMPLE.EDU Mon Nov 19 13:27:26 2007 From: brifkin at TEMPLE.EDU (Benjamin Rifkin) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 08:27:26 -0500 Subject: Literary texts and movies on Russian business culture In-Reply-To: <00ba01c82a5f$85301640$6a00a8c0@yourf78bf48ce2> Message-ID: Another film by Lungin, The Wedding, does not address the business culture, per se, but does depict the economy circa 2000 in a provincial Russian city. BR On 11/18/07 10:51 PM, "Laura Kline" wrote: > Dear All, > Can anyone recommend any literary texts or movies which would shed light on > contemporary Russian business culture - preferably in English? > Thank you in advance! > Laura Kline > Lecturer in Russian > Wayne State University > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Benjamin Rifkin Vice Dean for Undergraduate Affairs and Professor of Russian College of Liberal Arts, Temple University 1206 Anderson Hall, 1114 W. Berks St. Philadelphia, PA 19122 USA Voice: (215) 204-1816; Fax: (215) 204-3731 http://www.temple.edu/fgis/rifkin ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jwilson at SRAS.ORG Mon Nov 19 14:22:13 2007 From: jwilson at SRAS.ORG (Josh Wilson) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:22:13 +0300 Subject: Literary texts and movies on Russian business culture In-Reply-To: <5EDC627BE8273643A97CFEBB5B396B9103458D085F@iu-mssg-mbx02.ads.iu.edu> Message-ID: On TV shows, there was another based on the Donald-Trump-hosted show that was aired on Russia's TNT awhile back. Was hosted, if I recall correct, by the billionaire CEO of Norilsk Nickel, Vladimir Pontain. However, it seemed to me that one - and Ne rodis krasivoi - were highly, highly dramatized. I wouldn't take either one to reflect what Russian business culture is actually like (any more than "Just Shoot Me" show's Americas office life). I strongly second anything by Evgenii Grishkovetz, however. Rubashka is a fantastic depiction of a middle-class Russian man interacting in a contemporary business setting and, in my view, hits a lot of the problems currently facing that business environment spot-on. While the book is not available in English, it is written is a very simple, humorous Russian prose. I've recommended his stuff to many of our upper-intermediate students and have seen them read the books cover-to-cover with the help of a dictionary. Another of his books, Reki, deals quite a bit with life (and microeconomics) in the provinces. One disclaimer - Grishkovetz does not shy from profanity - though he does not overuse it either. Best, Josh Wilson Asst. Director The School of Russian and Asian Studies Editor-in-Chief Vestnik, The Journal of Russian and Asian Studies www.sras.org jwilson at sras.org -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of REEI Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 4:02 PM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Literary texts and movies on Russian business culture Hi Laura, The movie "Oligarkh" immediately comes to mind--the English version in our collection here is entitled "Tycoon: A New Russian." Some of the works of Evgenii Grishkovetz, e.g. "Rubashka" and stories in a collection whose title escapes me, shed light on the mentality of Russian businesspeople in their 30s or so. Though I haven't seen it, I'm pretty sure the recent hit TV series "Ne rodis' krasivoi" takes place in a contemporary business setting (and there are others). Best wishes, Mark Trotter Assistant Director/Outreach Coordinator Indiana University martrott at indiana.edu ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Laura Kline [klinela at COMCAST.NET] Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 10:51 PM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: [SEELANGS] Literary texts and movies on Russian business culture Dear All, Can anyone recommend any literary texts or movies which would shed light on contemporary Russian business culture - preferably in English? Thank you in advance! Laura Kline Lecturer in Russian Wayne State University ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rrobin at GWU.EDU Mon Nov 19 14:59:43 2007 From: rrobin at GWU.EDU (Richard Robin) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:59:43 -0500 Subject: Wexler says Hebrew is a Slavic Language Message-ID: I am familiar with Paul Wexler's argument (summed up in English at http://linguistlist.org/issues/13/13-2349.html). Wexler says that Yiddish, commonly thought to be Germanic (specifically a development of Middle High German) is in fact, relexified (by German) 10-C Slavic on two fronts: Sorbian in the 10thC and Ukrainian (Kiev-Polessian) several centuries later. I'm way out of my depth in discussing the merits of that argument. But Wexler goes on to argue that Hebrew is relexified Yiddish. That makes Hebrew a Slavic language. I need a reality check. Isn't that something of a stretch? Or can my department go to our dean and demand that the we now subsume Hebrew program? -Rich Robin *In the latest newcomer to SEELANGS, Modern Hebrew (which according to Paul Wexler is a Slavic language, cf. http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/ yedion/03-04/syllabi/single_syllabi/06273138.html ) * -- Richard M. Robin, Ph.D. Director Russian Language Program Technical Advisor, GW Language Сenter The George Washington University Washington, DC 20008 202-994-7081 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Russkiy tekst v UTF-8 From colkitto at ROGERS.COM Mon Nov 19 15:16:36 2007 From: colkitto at ROGERS.COM (colkitto) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:16:36 -0500 Subject: Wexler says Hebrew is a Slavic Language Message-ID: or maybe your Hebrew programme could do something way outside the box and say ..... No. Our tradition is older We get promoted from programme to department and take over Slavic! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Robin" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 9:59 AM Subject: [SEELANGS] Wexler says Hebrew is a Slavic Language >I am familiar with Paul Wexler's argument (summed up in English at > http://linguistlist.org/issues/13/13-2349.html). Wexler says that Yiddish, > commonly thought to be Germanic (specifically a development of Middle High > German) is in fact, relexified (by German) 10-C Slavic on two fronts: > Sorbian in the 10thC and Ukrainian (Kiev-Polessian) several centuries > later. > I'm way out of my depth in discussing the merits of that argument. But > Wexler goes on to argue that Hebrew is relexified Yiddish. That makes > Hebrew > a Slavic language. I need a reality check. Isn't that something of a > stretch? Or can my department go to our dean and demand that the we now > subsume Hebrew program? > > -Rich Robin > > *In the latest newcomer to SEELANGS, Modern Hebrew (which according to > Paul Wexler is a Slavic language, cf. http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/ > yedion/03-04/syllabi/single_syllabi/06273138.html ) > * > > -- > Richard M. Robin, Ph.D. > Director Russian Language Program > Technical Advisor, GW Language Сenter > The George Washington University > Washington, DC 20008 > 202-994-7081 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Russkiy tekst v UTF-8 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vbelyanin at GMAIL.COM Mon Nov 19 15:36:06 2007 From: vbelyanin at GMAIL.COM (Valery Belyanin) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:36:06 +0300 Subject: Sugary Texts In-Reply-To: <41869657-FA87-43ED-9758-705DE2A0700E@american.edu> Message-ID: Still it seems that a new way type of texts is being born nowadays in Russian press. В июле 2007 года Путин побывал на ранчо семейства Буш, где рыбачил вместе с нынешним главой Белого дома и его отцом – бывшим президентом США Джорджем Бушем-старшим. Единственным, кто из всей компании смог поймать рыбу, стал Путин, «счастливчик Влад»... И в этом тоже, как и во всем, что делает Путин, многие верующие углядели Божий промысел. Рыба, как известно, древний символ христианства. ......... Именно с приходом Путина в Россию вернулась та система ценностей, которая за многие века помогла стране стать мировой державой. Вера, царь, отечество – вот основные столпы, на которых зиждется слава и благополучие России. Именно Путин вернул веру в Бога, веру в отечество и в царя, если под этим словом подразумевать власть. etc. http://zhizn.ru/article/politic/9037/ I do not belive this can be true: am not a very religious person, I lived enough under socialism. Or it is just hidden irony? Still the style is rather interesting. -- Валерий Белянин / Valery Belyanin, a loyal Russian sitizen From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Mon Nov 19 15:58:33 2007 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:58:33 -0500 Subject: Sugary Texts In-Reply-To: <6e5389890711190736h3383e7c6s80f9154bc18ff5f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: You must have missed the adulations: http://www.rusnovosti.ru/ program_reports/20070/ http://www.vz.ru/politics/2007/11/19/125840.html http://vzglyad.ru/columns/2007/9/28/112869.html "Vzgljad" is in the forefront. But it is not alone there. http://fintimes.ru/root/10064/ There are blogs, videos, not to mention main stream press. On Nov 19, 2007, at 10:36 AM, Valery Belyanin wrote: > I do not belive this can be true: am not a very religious person, I > lived > enough under socialism. Or it is just hidden irony? > Still the style is rather interesting. > -- > Валерий Белянин / Valery Belyanin, a loyal Russian sitizen Alina Israeli LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW Washington DC. 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From lino59 at AMERITECH.NET Mon Nov 19 17:05:06 2007 From: lino59 at AMERITECH.NET (Deborah Hoffman) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:05:06 -0800 Subject: to google/should be "who is a Slavic speaker?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've been trying to convince my husband for years that Yiddish is a Slavic language, at least certain geographical permutations of it. If this could replace the who is a Jew controversy, I would be all for it. >Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 00:54:36 +0200 From: Moshe Taube Subject: Re: to google > >In the latest newcomer to SEELANGS, Modern Hebrew (which according to Paul Wexler is a Slavic language, cf. http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/ >yedion/03-04/syllabi/single_syllabi/06273138.html ) we do it the old >fashioned Semitic way: we extract the consonantal root, G, G, L, and then conjugate it in the pi'el formation, hence gigalti, gigalta, gigalt, megagelim, legagel etc. > Cheers, >Moshe Taube ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From lino59 at AMERITECH.NET Mon Nov 19 17:17:56 2007 From: lino59 at AMERITECH.NET (Deborah Hoffman) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:17:56 -0800 Subject: to google/should be "who is a Slavic speaker?" Message-ID: Let me cover myself: not a Slavic language in the sense of indicating a Khazar origin for the Ashkenazi Jews (I've often wondered why this argument never considers that the resulting lingo would have had a Turkish structure). The Yiddish syntax I hear (and I admittedly am not a researcher in linguistics) is Germanic, but there are so many Slavic roots used by the Polish or Subcarpathian Ukraine versions--compared to, say, that of the Frankfurt area--that I would think those Yiddishes would be completely opaque to a modern speaker of German. In any event, I was largely speaking tongue in cheek. Deborah Hoffman wrote: Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:05:06 -0800 (PST) From: Deborah Hoffman Subject: to google/should be "who is a Slavic speaker?" To: "SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list" I've been trying to convince my husband for years that Yiddish is a Slavic language, at least certain geographical permutations of it. If this could replace the who is a Jew controversy, I would be all for it. >Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 00:54:36 +0200 From: Moshe Taube Subject: Re: to google > >In the latest newcomer to SEELANGS, Modern Hebrew (which according to Paul Wexler is a Slavic language, cf. http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/ >yedion/03-04/syllabi/single_syllabi/06273138.html ) we do it the old >fashioned Semitic way: we extract the consonantal root, G, G, L, and then conjugate it in the pi'el formation, hence gigalti, gigalta, gigalt, megagelim, legagel etc. > Cheers, >Moshe Taube ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Mon Nov 19 17:32:51 2007 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 12:32:51 -0500 Subject: to google/should be "who is a Slavic speaker?" In-Reply-To: <272239.56482.qm@web80601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Deborah Hoffman wrote: > I've been trying to convince my husband for years that Yiddish is a > Slavic language, at least certain geographical permutations of it. If > this could replace the who is a Jew controversy, I would be all for > it. You might as well ask whether an American of mixed heritage belongs to one or the other culture. Am I Irish because my father was Irish, or Jewish because my mother was Jewish? Answer -- yes. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ggerhart at COMCAST.NET Mon Nov 19 20:05:41 2007 From: ggerhart at COMCAST.NET (Genevra Gerhart) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 12:05:41 -0800 Subject: to google In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My visiting Russians, admittedly middle-aged and therefore more conservative, are involved with the internet every day, and insist that guglit' is not commonly used, though the noun form is used all the time: "poishchi v gugle". In both cases stress is on the first syllable. Genevra Gerhart ggerhart at comcast.net www.genevragerhart.com www.russiancommonknowledge.com -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Moshe Taube Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 8:29 AM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] to google Hi Olga Giggul it is indeed (as attested by a google search). It's good to see someone there in the dark reads your postings. The reactions on Wexler which I was kind of expecting have not materialized yet, though. Thanks for your kind words on my contribution to Judeo-Slavica. For a moment I felt rather embarrassed, thinking that you posted your reply through SEELANGS for everyone to see. best Moshe On Nov 18, 2007, at 6:09 AM, Olga Meerson wrote: > The verbal noun is then giggul (for the activity of Googleing)? If > something is well-known and attested through google, it is guggal. > My favorite in Hebrew is still the verbal noun for de-bugging a > computer--dibbug. Sounds almost like dibbuq but means the exact > opposite! > PS Professor Taube, you are my hero in your approach to Judeo-Slavica. > o.m. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Moshe Taube > Date: Saturday, November 17, 2007 5:54 pm > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] to google > >> In the latest newcomer to SEELANGS, Modern Hebrew (which according >> to >> Paul Wexler is a Slavic language, cf. >> http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/ >> yedion/03-04/syllabi/single_syllabi/06273138.html ) we do it the >> old >> fashioned Semitic way: we extract the consonantal root, G, G, L, >> and >> then conjugate it in the pi'el formation, hence gigalti, gigalta, >> gigalt, megagelim, legagel etc. >> >> Cheers, >> Moshe Taube >> >> On Nov 17, 2007, at 11:37 PM, Olga Meerson wrote: >> >>> In the pair gugl'nut'/guglit', the stress is on the last >> syllable. >>> In the pair proguglit'/guglit', on the first of the stem (-U-). >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: jdingley at YORKU.CA >>> Date: Saturday, November 17, 2007 4:33 pm >>> Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] to google >>> >>>> Perhaps I missed it, but what stress does guglit' have? >>>> Stem or ending? If ending, then I would assume shifting, >>>> i.e. guglyu', gu'glish' >>>> >>>> John Dingley >>>> >>>> --------------- >>>> http://momiji.yorku.ca/jding07.html >>>> >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >>>> ----- >>>> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your >>>> subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS >>>> Web Interface at: >>>> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >>>> ----- >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> ---- >>> --- >>> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your >>> subscription >>> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web >> Interface >>> at: >>> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> ---- >>> --- >> >> Professor Moshe Taube >> Tamara and Saveli Grinberg Chair in Russian Studies >> Dept. of Linguistics / Dept. of Russian and Slavic Studies >> Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Mt. Scopus 91905 ISRAEL >> email: mstaube at mscc.huji.ac.il >> tel. 972-2-5883835 (w.) >> tel. 972-2-6513819 (h.) >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your >> subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS >> Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----- >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface > at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- Professor Moshe Taube Tamara and Saveli Grinberg Chair in Russian Studies Dept. of Linguistics / Dept. of Russian and Slavic Studies Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Mt. Scopus 91905 ISRAEL email: mstaube at mscc.huji.ac.il tel. 972-2-5883835 (w.) tel. 972-2-6513819 (h.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.0/1136 - Release Date: 11/17/2007 2:55 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.0/1139 - Release Date: 11/19/2007 12:35 PM ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From elizabethskomp at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Nov 19 20:33:28 2007 From: elizabethskomp at HOTMAIL.COM (Elizabeth Skomp) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:33:28 -0500 Subject: Uzbek film query Message-ID: Dear SEELANGers, A colleague who does not subscribe to SEELANGS is in search of the 1963 film "Ty ne sirota" (dir. Shukhrat Abbasov). Please contact him off-list (StronskiPM at state.gov) if you have suggestions or information about obtaining the film. Spasibo zaranee, Elizabeth Skomp Sewanee: The University of the South _________________________________________________________________ Your smile counts. The more smiles you share, the more we donate.  Join in. www.windowslive.com/smile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_oprsmilewlhmtagline ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From atacama at GLOBAL.CO.ZA Mon Nov 19 20:17:09 2007 From: atacama at GLOBAL.CO.ZA (Vera Beljakova) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:17:09 +0200 Subject: "who is a Slavic speaker?" Message-ID: Sorry, Yiddish is based on German and orginated in German-speaking territory. Vera Beljakova Johannesburg  ----- Original Message ------  From:Deborah Hoffman  Sent:Monday, November 19, 2007 19:05  To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU;  Subject:[SEELANGS] to google/should be "who is a Slavic speaker?" I've been trying to convince my husband for years that Yiddish is a Slavic language, at least certain geographical permutations of it. If this could replace the who is a Jew controversy, I would be all for it. >Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 00:54:36 +0200 From: Moshe Taube Subject: Re: to google > >In the latest newcomer to SEELANGS, Modern Hebrew (which according to Paul Wexler is a Slavic language, cf. http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/ >yedion/03-04/syllabi/single_syllabi/06273138.html ) we do it the old >fashioned Semitic way: we extract the consonantal root, G, G, L, and then conjugate it in the pi'el formation, hence gigalti, gigalta, gigalt, megagelim, legagel etc. > Cheers, >Moshe Taube ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulr at RUSSIANLIFE.NET Mon Nov 19 21:43:58 2007 From: paulr at RUSSIANLIFE.NET (Paul Richardson) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 16:43:58 -0500 Subject: Russian business culture Message-ID: Laura: Pelevin's "Babylon" (that's the English title, it was "Generation P" in Russian, I believe), deals with the life of an adman. I believe his newer DPP(NN) was also relevant to this context. Paul Richardson Russian Life magazine On Nov 19, 2007, at 3:52 PM, SEELANGS automatic digest system wrote: > On 11/18/07 10:51 PM, "Laura Kline" wrote: > > >> Dear All, >> Can anyone recommend any literary texts or movies which would shed >> light on >> contemporary Russian business culture - preferably in English? >> Thank you in advance! >> Laura Kline >> Lecturer in Russian >> Wayne State University >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From lino59 at AMERITECH.NET Mon Nov 19 22:06:42 2007 From: lino59 at AMERITECH.NET (Deborah Hoffman) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 14:06:42 -0800 Subject: to google/should be "who is a Slavic speaker?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Vera nicht gedaiget, ich hob nur a bissel shpass gemacht! I really don't see how Wexler reasonably conclude that the Slavicisms in Yiddish can result from a Slavic origin, as opposed to an infiltration from many years of later co-existence. If you go to Williamsburg you see signs that say "Vindos gefixed" and hear "Di kenn nicht kayin chooingam (chewing gum) oif Shabbes" as English has been taken in. Although I suppose the kayin should be at the end, where all proper Germanic verbs go... >Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:17:09 +0200 >From: Vera Beljakova >Subject: Re: "who is a Slavic speaker?" > >Sorry,=0AYiddish is based on German and orginated in German-speaking >territory >Vera Beljakova >Johannesburg > --- Original Message ------=0A=C2=A0From:Deborah >>Hoffman >>Subject:=5BSEELANGS=5D to google/should be =22who is a Slavic >>speaker?= >>I've been trying to convince my husband >>for years that Yiddish is a Slavic language, at least certain >> geographical permutations of it=2E If this could replace the who is a Jew >>controversy, I would be all for it ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From anthony.j.vanchu at NASA.GOV Mon Nov 19 22:14:20 2007 From: anthony.j.vanchu at NASA.GOV (Vanchu, Anthony J. (JSC-AH)[TTI]) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 16:14:20 -0600 Subject: to google/should be "who is a Slavic speaker?" In-Reply-To: A<586526.6962.qm@web80609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Except that "kayin" is a negative (akin to nikakoi in Russian) and not a verb... So it should probably stay where it is, modifying "chooingam"... -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Deborah Hoffman Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 4:07 PM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: [SEELANGS] to google/should be "who is a Slavic speaker?" Vera nicht gedaiget, ich hob nur a bissel shpass gemacht! I really don't see how Wexler reasonably conclude that the Slavicisms in Yiddish can result from a Slavic origin, as opposed to an infiltration from many years of later co-existence. If you go to Williamsburg you see signs that say "Vindos gefixed" and hear "Di kenn nicht kayin chooingam (chewing gum) oif Shabbes" as English has been taken in. Although I suppose the kayin should be at the end, where all proper Germanic verbs go... >Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:17:09 +0200 >From: Vera Beljakova >Subject: Re: "who is a Slavic speaker?" > >Sorry,=0AYiddish is based on German and orginated in German-speaking >territory >Vera Beljakova >Johannesburg > --- Original Message ------=0A=C2=A0From:Deborah >>Hoffman >>Subject:=5BSEELANGS=5D to google/should be =22who is a Slavic >>speaker?= >>I've been trying to convince my husband >>for years that Yiddish is a Slavic language, at least certain >> geographical permutations of it=2E If this could replace the who is a >> Jew >>controversy, I would be all for it ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aspektor at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Nov 19 22:20:17 2007 From: aspektor at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Alex Spektor) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:20:17 -0500 Subject: Nabokov and drafts Message-ID: Can anyone help me locate the place where Nabokov compares our reality to a tightly closed room in which we still feel the draft of eternity? Strong Opinions? Thank you, Sasha. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From colkitto at ROGERS.COM Mon Nov 19 22:33:16 2007 From: colkitto at ROGERS.COM (colkitto@rogers.com) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:33:16 -0500 Subject: to google/should be who is a Slavic speaker? Message-ID: Isn't "kayin" rather "kauen" - chew (cognate with zhevat, of course)? "nicht kein" would sound very odd in German, and I suspect, Yiddish as well Original Message: ----------------- From: Vanchu, Anthony J. (JSC-AH)[TTI] anthony.j.vanchu at NASA.GOV Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 16:14:20 -0600 To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] to google/should be "who is a Slavic speaker?" Except that "kayin" is a negative (akin to nikakoi in Russian) and not a verb... So it should probably stay where it is, modifying "chooingam"... -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Deborah Hoffman Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 4:07 PM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: [SEELANGS] to google/should be "who is a Slavic speaker?" Vera nicht gedaiget, ich hob nur a bissel shpass gemacht! I really don't see how Wexler reasonably conclude that the Slavicisms in Yiddish can result from a Slavic origin, as opposed to an infiltration from many years of later co-existence. If you go to Williamsburg you see signs that say "Vindos gefixed" and hear "Di kenn nicht kayin chooingam (chewing gum) oif Shabbes" as English has been taken in. Although I suppose the kayin should be at the end, where all proper Germanic verbs go... >Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:17:09 +0200 >From: Vera Beljakova >Subject: Re: "who is a Slavic speaker?" > >Sorry,=0AYiddish is based on German and orginated in German-speaking >territory >Vera Beljakova >Johannesburg > --- Original Message ------=0A=C2=A0From:Deborah >>Hoffman >>Subject:=5BSEELANGS=5D to google/should be =22who is a Slavic >>speaker?= >>I've been trying to convince my husband >>for years that Yiddish is a Slavic language, at least certain >> geographical permutations of it=2E If this could replace the who is a >> Jew >>controversy, I would be all for it ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft® Windows® and Linux web and application hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Mon Nov 19 22:36:28 2007 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:36:28 -0500 Subject: to google/should be "who is a Slavic speaker?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Vanchu, Anthony J. (JSC-AH)[TTI] wrote: > Except that "kayin" is a negative (akin to nikakoi in Russian) and not a > verb... > So it should probably stay where it is, modifying "chooingam"... I myself was waiting for the main verb to show up, taking "kayin" for German "kein," but then I looked it up and realized it had two syllables and meant "to chew." :-) Никакой would be קײן ("keyn" or "kein" according to your transliteration system, or "kayn" in some dialects). -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ssychov at UMICH.EDU Mon Nov 19 22:51:15 2007 From: ssychov at UMICH.EDU (Sergei Sychov) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:51:15 -0500 Subject: Nabokov and drafts In-Reply-To: <1195510817.47420c2107316@webmail.fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: This may come from "Dar," chapter 5, where the narrator comments on Delalande's scorn for death and talks about life not as a journey but as sitting-at-home. Cheers, -sergei Quoting Alex Spektor : > Can anyone help me locate the place where Nabokov compares our reality to a > tightly closed room in which we still feel the draft of eternity? Strong > Opinions? > > Thank you, > Sasha. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pstock at BRANDEIS.EDU Mon Nov 19 23:22:17 2007 From: pstock at BRANDEIS.EDU (David Powelstock) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:22:17 -0500 Subject: Russian business culture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Translation published under a different title in the US: _Homo Zapiens_. -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul Richardson Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 4:44 PM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: [SEELANGS] Russian business culture Laura: Pelevin's "Babylon" (that's the English title, it was "Generation P" in Russian, I believe), deals with the life of an adman. I believe his newer DPP(NN) was also relevant to this context. Paul Richardson Russian Life magazine On Nov 19, 2007, at 3:52 PM, SEELANGS automatic digest system wrote: > On 11/18/07 10:51 PM, "Laura Kline" wrote: > > >> Dear All, >> Can anyone recommend any literary texts or movies which would shed >> light on contemporary Russian business culture - preferably in >> English? >> Thank you in advance! >> Laura Kline >> Lecturer in Russian >> Wayne State University >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From colkitto at ROGERS.COM Tue Nov 20 03:40:35 2007 From: colkitto at ROGERS.COM (colkitto) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:40:35 -0500 Subject: to google/should be "who is a Slavic speaker?" Message-ID: I will take the liberty of quoting from my review of Dixon The Rise and Fall of Languages (1999) "...... disentangling all the different strata in so-called hybrid languages is admittedly difficult, but not impossible, if proper use is made of all available items of evidence. Eggers (1998) provides examples of how close analysis of linguistic material can often disentangle quite fine strands, in this case various Judeo-Romance, Bavarian, Slavic, and Hebrew components in Yiddish." ......... [A] much-discussed phenomenon in historical linguistics is relexification, which involves situations where a language preserves its original grammatical structure during a period of close language contact while borrowing most of its lexicon from another language. Some of the examples cited by Thomason & Kaufman (1988), and discussed by Dixon, appear to this involve this process (see above). Welsh may also provide a relevant example. Currently in South Wales a form of relexification appears to be actually under way. Many children in Glamorgan and the Rhondda whose first language is English are being educated through the medium of Welsh. However, there have been no actual Welsh-speaking communities in those areas since about 1850. The Welsh that such children actually use, however, may be described as English structure with a Welsh lexicon: partially parallel to the Yiddish/Hebrew situation described by Wexler. This type of Welsh is called bratiaith (jargon), and is regarded with scorn by many speakers from North Wales, who often claim that it is incomprehensible. However, if the decline of Welsh in rural communities coupled with the increase in numbers of speakers of bratiaith continues, one day the latter might be the only type of Welsh left. So-called revived languages may also constitute partial examples of relexification. Further on (Chapter 8, p.111n.), Dixon cites Hebrew as a canonical example of a revived language. He points out that Modern Hebrew has borrowed syntactic constructions from the Indo-European languages spoken by Jews before they switched to Hebrew.fn. Similar criticism has been voiced of revived Cornish, which is mostly based on the language of medieval miracle plays. As Dixon points out, the examples of Hebrew (as well as Cornish) show that even if language revivalists are successful in persuading a critical mass of speakers to (re)learn and (re)use dead or moribund languages, the revived languages often undergo massive structural borrowings from the native or functional languages of the speakers who are making the switch. This is all the more reason to heed Dixon’s concluding call (135-138) for recording languages currently on the brink of extinction. fn. In a recent series of works Wexler has proposed that Yiddish, and by extension Modern Hebrew, are actually Slavic languages which have undergone massive relexification (see Wexler 1993, and the literature cited therein). His proposal has remained controversial, see, e.g., the mainly negative reviews cited in Wexler 1993:305). " Eggers, Eckhard. 1998. Sprachwandel und Sprachmischung im Jiddischen. Frankfurt a. M.: Peter Lang. Thomason Sarah G. & Terrence Kaufman. 1988. Language Contact: Creolization and Genetic Linguistics. Berkeley: University of California Press. Wexler, Paul. 1993. The Ashkenazic Jews: A Slavo-Turkic people in search of a Jewish identity. Columbus: Slavica." So the question is: are processes such as massive structural borrowing and relexification enough to move a language from one family into another? Wexler clearly thinks that they are. He may well have a point. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ggerhart at COMCAST.NET Tue Nov 20 04:55:38 2007 From: ggerhart at COMCAST.NET (Genevra Gerhart) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 20:55:38 -0800 Subject: Baklava In-Reply-To: <009401c82b27$1c39fb60$a095f163@yourg9zekrp5zf> Message-ID: Over fifty years ago, my Russian landlady in Paris served me a dessert which she said was very popular and came from the eastern Mediterranean. Table discussion tonight was whether baklava or pakhlava was from Greece, Turkey, Azerbaidzhan, etc. None of my dictionaries was any help whatsoever. Help! Genevra Gerhart ggerhart at comcast.net www.genevragerhart.com www.russiancommonknowledge.com No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.0/1139 - Release Date: 11/19/2007 12:35 PM ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From k.r.hauge at ILOS.UIO.NO Tue Nov 20 08:10:03 2007 From: k.r.hauge at ILOS.UIO.NO (=?UTF-8?B?S2pldGlsIFLDpSBIYXVnZQ==?=) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:10:03 +0100 Subject: Baklava In-Reply-To: <001301c82b31$987bef30$6773e747@DB4SFP51> Message-ID: Genevra Gerhart wrote: > Over fifty years ago, my Russian landlady in Paris served me a dessert which > she said was very popular and came from the eastern Mediterranean. > Table discussion tonight was whether baklava or pakhlava was from Greece, > Turkey, Azerbaidzhan, etc. None of my dictionaries was any help whatsoever. > Help! > Genevra Gerhart According to Hasan Eren, Türk Dilinin Etimolojik Sözlüğü, Ankara 1999, its etymology is not too clear, but it could be some kind of contamination of _bakla_ 'broad bean' (from Arabic) and _oklava_ 'rolling pin' and has spread from Turkish to South Slavonic, Romanian, Armenian, Greek and Arabic. You get the best baklava (my opinion, but I am sure Eren would agree) in Gaziantep, where they make it with honey and pistachios instead of sugar syrup and hazelnuts. -- --- Kjetil Rå Hauge, U. of Oslo --- tel. +47/22856710, fax +1/5084372444 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From alerosa at HOL.GR Tue Nov 20 09:14:39 2007 From: alerosa at HOL.GR (Alexandra Ioannidou) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:14:39 +0200 Subject: Baklava In-Reply-To: <001301c82b31$987bef30$6773e747@DB4SFP51> Message-ID: Dear Genevra, although I am a Greek I have to admit that this wonderful desert is definitely Turkish! Alex -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Genevra Gerhart Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 6:56 AM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: [SEELANGS] Baklava Over fifty years ago, my Russian landlady in Paris served me a dessert which she said was very popular and came from the eastern Mediterranean. Table discussion tonight was whether baklava or pakhlava was from Greece, Turkey, Azerbaidzhan, etc. None of my dictionaries was any help whatsoever. Help! Genevra Gerhart ggerhart at comcast.net www.genevragerhart.com www.russiancommonknowledge.com No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.0/1139 - Release Date: 11/19/2007 12:35 PM ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.1/1140 - Release Date: 19/11/2007 7:05 __ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From J.Dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Tue Nov 20 09:56:02 2007 From: J.Dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:56:02 +0100 Subject: to google/should be Message-ID: It may be worth noting that in Welsh you can also find the reverse pattern of relexification, i.e. Welsh structures with English lexicon. Examples I recall hearing include 'y favourite ploy Bennett' [Bennett's favourite ploy] and 'tair chops o lamb' [three lamb chops], though since Welsh numerals are followed by the singular, the plural ending may be interpreted as a structural anglicism. It may also be the case that some speakers replace the syntactically and structurally complex higher Welsh numerals with their simpler English counterparts. Even allowing for the specific features of the education and mass media systems that have brought about this state of affairs, one can presumably posit similarly (or even more) convoluted patterns of influence for other situations of language contact, e.g. German/Yiddish/Slavonic or Yiddish/Hebrew/A.N. Other. John Dunn. -----Original Message----- From: colkitto To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:40:35 -0500 Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] to google/should be "who is a Slavic speaker?" I will take the liberty of quoting from my review of Dixon The Rise and Fall of Languages (1999) [cut] ......... [A] much-discussed phenomenon in historical linguistics is relexification, which involves situations where a language preserves its original grammatical structure during a period of close language contact while borrowing most of its lexicon from another language. Some of the examples cited by Thomason & Kaufman (1988), and discussed by Dixon, appear to this involve this process (see above). Welsh may also provide a relevant example. Currently in South Wales a form of relexification appears to be actually under way. Many children in Glamorgan and the Rhondda whose first language is English are being educated through the medium of Welsh. However, there have been no actual Welsh-speaking communities in those areas since about 1850. The Welsh that such children actually use, however, may be described as English structure with a Welsh lexicon: partially parallel to the Yiddish/Hebrew situation described by Wexler. This type of Welsh is called bratiaith (jargon), and is regarded with scorn by many speakers from North Wales, who often claim that it is incomprehensible. However, if the decline of Welsh in rural communities coupled with the increase in numbers of speakers of bratiaith continues, one day the latter might be the only type of Welsh left. [cut] John Dunn Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) University of Glasgow, Scotland Address: Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 40137 Bologna Italy Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From iamlearningenglish at GMAIL.COM Tue Nov 20 11:48:56 2007 From: iamlearningenglish at GMAIL.COM (Dustin Hosseini) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 05:48:56 -0600 Subject: Baklava Message-ID: Here is an interesting article from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baklava I must add, you can find baklava in most Middle Eastern countries, Turkey, Iran, Syria, Lebanon... The best I've ever had was in Turkey and Syria, but it was a lot less expensive in Syria! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Tue Nov 20 12:17:20 2007 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 07:17:20 -0500 Subject: to google/should be "who is a Slavic speaker?" Message-ID: I replied to Prof. Taube privately before. The best testimony about relexification is describing the process of learning a revived language, with knowing "the other". I am a native speaker of Russian and at one point (mid-seventies) learned Hebrew to function in it intellectually, not only in the streets. When, However, I came to the US and started learning how to use English actively, as well as Biblical Hebrew for exegetic purposes, did I discover what learning a truly foreign language actually entailed. Only in retrospect did I understand that what I had learned in Israel, near perfectly, was Russian relexified: it was a piece of cake and everything "made sense" in the terms of my native Russian. Another interesting point is that this modern Hebrew, Russian relexified, is surviving: people speak and read in it, and even write wonderful, controversial literature, such as Agnon's, where a Biblical quote sounds like a Church-Slavonicism in Leskov's Russian--always recognizable as deceptively similar vocabulary but a different, marked structure. In fact, by clashing his re-lexified Russian (and partially German, and not always through Yiddishisms) with Bibleisms, Agnon creates a Hebrew literary style as unique as that of Leskov's in Russian. So there are ways in poetics to urge relexifications to take root, and thereby make the revived language survive, by making this new structure clash with the traditional. As usual, cross-breeding helps to make the species survive, and purists lose. But everyone knows this who has worked with poetics and not merely with languages as sociolects. Paradoxically, the more a poet bends the language, the better it is tempered. Look at Shak espeare. o.m. ----- Original Message ----- From: colkitto Date: Monday, November 19, 2007 10:40 pm Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] to google/should be "who is a Slavic speaker?" > I will take the liberty of quoting from my review of Dixon The Rise > and Fall > of Languages (1999) > > "...... disentangling all the different strata in so-called hybrid > languages > is admittedly difficult, but not impossible, if proper use is made > of all > available items of evidence. Eggers (1998) provides examples of how > close > analysis of linguistic material can often disentangle quite fine > strands, in > this case various Judeo-Romance, Bavarian, Slavic, and Hebrew > components in > Yiddish." > > ......... > > [A] much-discussed phenomenon in historical linguistics is > relexification, > which involves situations where a language preserves its original > grammatical structure during a period of close language contact > while > borrowing most of its lexicon from another language. Some of the > examples > cited by Thomason & Kaufman (1988), and discussed by Dixon, appear > to this > involve this process (see above). Welsh may also provide a relevant > example. > Currently in South Wales a form of relexification appears to be > actually > under way. Many children in Glamorgan and the Rhondda whose first > language > is English are being educated through the medium of Welsh. However, > there > have been no actual Welsh-speaking communities in those areas since > about > 1850. The Welsh that such children actually use, however, may be > described > as English structure with a Welsh lexicon: partially parallel to > the > Yiddish/Hebrew situation described by Wexler. This type of Welsh is > called > bratiaith (jargon), and is regarded with scorn by many speakers > from North > Wales, who often claim that it is incomprehensible. However, if the > decline > of Welsh in rural communities coupled with the increase in numbers > of > speakers of bratiaith continues, one day the latter might be the > only type > of Welsh left. > > So-called revived languages may also constitute partial examples of > relexification. Further on (Chapter 8, p.111n.), Dixon cites Hebrew > as a > canonical example of a revived language. He points out that Modern > Hebrew > has borrowed syntactic constructions from the Indo-European > languages spoken > by Jews before they switched to Hebrew.fn. Similar criticism has > been voiced > of revived Cornish, which is mostly based on the language of > medieval > miracle plays. As Dixon points out, the examples of Hebrew (as well > as > Cornish) show that even if language revivalists are successful in > persuading > a critical mass of speakers to (re)learn and (re)use dead or > moribund > languages, the revived languages often undergo massive structural > borrowings > from the native or functional languages of the speakers who are > making the > switch. This is all the more reason to heed Dixon’s concluding call > (135-138) for recording languages currently on the brink of > extinction. > fn. In a recent series of works Wexler has proposed that Yiddish, > and by > extension Modern Hebrew, are actually Slavic languages which have > undergone > massive relexification (see Wexler 1993, and the literature cited > therein). > His proposal has remained controversial, see, e.g., the mainly > negative > reviews cited in Wexler 1993:305). " > > Eggers, Eckhard. 1998. Sprachwandel und Sprachmischung im > Jiddischen. > Frankfurt a. M.: Peter Lang. > > Thomason Sarah G. & Terrence Kaufman. 1988. Language Contact: > Creolization > and Genetic Linguistics. Berkeley: University of California Press. > > Wexler, Paul. 1993. The Ashkenazic Jews: A Slavo-Turkic people in > search of > a Jewish identity. Columbus: Slavica." > > So the question is: are processes such as massive structural > borrowing and > relexification enough to move a language from one family into > another? > Wexler clearly thinks that they are. He may well have a point. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS > Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Tue Nov 20 13:39:19 2007 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:39:19 -0500 Subject: Baklava In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I would like to point out the flip-article in Russian and its Russian name Paxlava: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B0%D1%85%D0%BB% D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B0 On Nov 20, 2007, at 6:48 AM, Dustin Hosseini wrote: > Here is an interesting article from Wikipedia: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baklava > Alina Israeli LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW Washington DC. 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From colkitto at ROGERS.COM Tue Nov 20 14:09:03 2007 From: colkitto at ROGERS.COM (colkitto) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:09:03 -0500 Subject: to google/should be Message-ID: > It may be worth noting that in Welsh you can also find the reverse pattern > of relexification, i.e. Welsh structures with English lexicon. Examples I > recall hearing include 'y favourite ploy Bennett' [Bennett's favourite > ploy] and 'tair chops o lamb' [three lamb chops], though since Welsh > numerals are followed by the singular, the plural ending may be > interpreted as a structural anglicism. It may also be the case that some > speakers replace the syntactically and structurally complex higher Welsh > numerals with their simpler English counterparts. on the radio news in Gaelic people often read out the years in English, so you might suddenly hear, e.g., nineteen seventy-seven, in the middle of a stream of Gaelic ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From tsergay at ALBANY.EDU Tue Nov 20 14:24:03 2007 From: tsergay at ALBANY.EDU (Timothy Sergay) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:24:03 -0500 Subject: Russian business culture Message-ID: Dear Laura Kline and SEELANGers, For a gritty, dark, sharply persecuted and no doubt controversial vision of Russian business culture you could consider using the fictional and journalistic/publitsistika writings of Yuliya Latynina. At least one of her novels has been translated as "The Insider" and is available at http://www.lib.ru/RUFANT/LATYNINA/insajder_engl.txt. Best wishes, Tim Sergay >>> Dear All, >>> Can anyone recommend any literary texts or movies which would shed >>> light on >>> contemporary Russian business culture - preferably in English? >>> Thank you in advance! >>> Laura Kline >>> Lecturer in Russian >>> Wayne State University >>> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From tsergay at ALBANY.EDU Tue Nov 20 14:35:36 2007 From: tsergay at ALBANY.EDU (Timothy Sergay) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:35:36 -0500 Subject: Russian business culture (more on Latynina) Message-ID: Dear All, I meant to characterize Latynina's views of Russia's business world as "sharply prosecuted," not "sharply persecuted." Sorry for this elementary paronym error; I'm no good with "principal" and "principle," either. I have read one of Latyinina's "economic thrillers," "Promzona" and found it very interesting precisely as a kind of three-dimensional, cinematic illustration of the ruthless world she portrays in her journalism, mainly her radio commentaries on Ekho Moskvy (where she hosts the polemical call-in program "Kod dostupa"). --Tim Sergay ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From lino59 at AMERITECH.NET Tue Nov 20 17:33:42 2007 From: lino59 at AMERITECH.NET (Deborah Hoffman) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:33:42 -0800 Subject: google/who is a Slavic speaker In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry - kayin is "chew" in Yiddish run through a Carpathian accent (as opposed to the one taught by the proper folks at YIVO). I don't know whether kayin is the most proper transliteration, but there is more of a vowel separation/second syllable there than is heard in the German kein. Ka-in? With the "ah" turning slightly "ee" before it completely gets to the second vowel? I've wondered about the double negative. One hears "Hoch mir nicht kein chainik" (Don't bang my kettle/rattle my cage") but it may be regional. Any Litvaks out there? >Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:33:16 -0500 >From: "colkitto at rogers.com" >Subject: Re: to google/should be who is a Slavic speaker? > >Isn't "kayin" rather "kauen" - chew (cognate with zhevat, of course)? > >"nicht kein" would sound very odd in German, and I suspect, Yiddish as >well > >Original Message: >>----------------- >> >>te: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 16:14:20 -0600 >>To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] to google/should be "who is a Slavic speaker?" >>Except that "kayin" is a negative (akin to nikakoi in Russian) and not > a verb... >>So it should probably stay where it is, modifying "chooingam"... ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From margarita at RENT-A-MIND.COM Tue Nov 20 18:51:51 2007 From: margarita at RENT-A-MIND.COM (Margarita Orlova) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:51:51 -0800 Subject: Baklava In-Reply-To: <001301c82b31$987bef30$6773e747@DB4SFP51> Message-ID: That is Бахлава [bakhlavA] in Kazakhstan, I tried it in Moscow, too, but it was in 1970-s. On Monday, November 19, 2007, at 08:55 PM, Genevra Gerhart wrote: > Over fifty years ago, my Russian landlady in Paris served me a dessert > which > she said was very popular and came from the eastern Mediterranean. > Table discussion tonight was whether baklava or pakhlava was from > Greece, > Turkey, Azerbaidzhan, etc. None of my dictionaries was any help > whatsoever. > Help! > Genevra Gerhart > > ggerhart at comcast.net > > www.genevragerhart.com > www.russiancommonknowledge.com > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.0/1139 - Release Date: > 11/19/2007 > 12:35 PM > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mclason at UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Nov 20 23:24:51 2007 From: mclason at UCHICAGO.EDU (Meredith Clason) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:24:51 -0600 Subject: Call for applications: Summer 2008 Fulbright-Hays GPA Short-Term Seminar in Russia Message-ID: CEERES is pleased to announce a call for applications for K-12 educators to travel to Russia and develop innovative materials to bring back to school districts and classrooms. 2008 Fulbright-Hays GPA Short-Term Seminar in Russia "Discovering Russia: Challenging Stereotypes and Media Myths" Download application [MSWord ] [PDF ] Download flyer [PDF ] *A full website is forthcoming. June 19- July 23, 2008 [Tentative Program Dates]: June 19--23 Pre-departure workshop at The University of Chicago June 24--July 21 Seminar in Russia CEERES, in conjunction with faculty at Illinois State University in Bloomington-Normal, has submitted a grant application for a Fulbright--Hays Group Project Abroad (GPA) to lead a short-term seminar in Russia on "Discovering Russia: Challenging Stereotypes and Media Myths" for educators. The seminar will take place mainly in the historic cultural city of Vladimir, Russia, followed by trips to Murom, St. Petersburg, and Moscow. The seminar will be preceded by a curriculum development workshop/predeparture orientation to be held at The University of Chicago campus. For some helpful background information, you check the website of previous similar programs held through University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign here: http://www.reec.uiuc.edu/outreach/fulbright.htm Although the Fulbright-Hays GPA grant for this program is still pending (expected notification date: March 2008), we are proceeding with the participant application for the seminar to Russia. Please be aware that the proposed seminar is contingent on the grant funding approval. Application Deadline: February 22, 2008 (postmarked) For more information, please contact 773-702-0866, email ceeres at uchicago.edu. Mail application to: CEERES attn Fulbright GPA 5835 S. Kimbark Ave., Rm 323 Chicago, IL 60637 -- Jeremy C. Pinkham Outreach Coordinator University of Chicago Center for East European and Russian/Eurasian Studies 5835 S. Kimbark Ave., Judd Hall 321 Chicago, IL 60637 (773) 702-0875 web: http://ceeres.uchicago.edu blog: http://ceeres.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rar at SLAVIC.UMASS.EDU Wed Nov 21 03:55:34 2007 From: rar at SLAVIC.UMASS.EDU (Robert A. Rothstein) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 22:55:34 -0500 Subject: google/who is a Slavic speaker In-Reply-To: <675511.99849.qm@web80601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Deborah Hoffman wrote: > Sorry - kayin is "chew" in Yiddish... There are two punning Yiddish proverbs about "kayen" (to chew): 1. Kayen iz keyn hevel nit 'Chewing is not vanity' (i.e., in vain) = Eating is important; but also 'Cain is no Abel.' 2. Hakoyl hevl - ober kayen muz men 'All is vanity (or: Abel) - but one has to chew (or: Cain). Bob Rothstein ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From seegmillerm at MAIL.MONTCLAIR.EDU Wed Nov 21 17:52:48 2007 From: seegmillerm at MAIL.MONTCLAIR.EDU (Steve Seegmiller) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 09:52:48 -0800 Subject: Hoch mir nicht kein chainik Message-ID: My ex-wife's family used this expression; they were from one of those places that used to be part of Russia but is now in eastern Poland, so apparently the expression is more widespread than the Baltic countries. Steve Seegmiller ----- Original Message ----- From: Deborah Hoffman Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 9:33 am Subject: [SEELANGS] google/who is a Slavic speaker > Sorry - kayin is "chew" in Yiddish run through a Carpathian accent > (as opposed to the one taught by the proper folks at YIVO). > > I don't know whether kayin is the most proper transliteration, > but there is more of a vowel separation/second syllable there than > is heard in the German kein. Ka-in? With the "ah" turning slightly > "ee" before it completely gets to the second vowel? > > I've wondered about the double negative. One hears "Hoch mir > nicht kein chainik" (Don't bang my kettle/rattle my cage") but it > may be regional. Any Litvaks out there? > > > >Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:33:16 -0500 > >From: "colkitto at rogers.com" > >Subject: Re: to google/should be who is a Slavic speaker? > > > >Isn't "kayin" rather "kauen" - chew (cognate with zhevat, of course)? > > > >"nicht kein" would sound very odd in German, and I suspect, > Yiddish as > >well > > > >Original Message: > >>----------------- > >> > >>te: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 16:14:20 -0600 > >>To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] to google/should be "who is a Slavic speaker?" > >>Except that "kayin" is a negative (akin to nikakoi in Russian) > and not > > a verb... > >>So it should probably stay where it is, modifying "chooingam"... > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS > Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From birgitbeumers at YAHOO.CO.UK Wed Nov 21 20:13:23 2007 From: birgitbeumers at YAHOO.CO.UK (Birgit Beumers) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 20:13:23 +0000 Subject: Central Asian Cinema Collection Message-ID: Cinema of Central Asia: Collection of Ten Films (subtitled, on DVD) by the Open Society Institute, Budapest,edited by Gulnara Abikeeva. For publication details and on how to obtain the collection, please see http://www.kinokultura.com/biblio.html#Multi-Media%20Sources Dr Birgit Beumers Department of Russian Studies University of Bristol 17 Woodland Road Bristol BS8 1TE United Kingdom Tel +44 117 928 7596 Editor, www.kinokultura.com Editor, Studies in Russian and Soviet Cinema --------------------------------- For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint visit Yahoo! For Good this month. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From edytaamazur at GMAIL.COM Wed Nov 21 20:34:09 2007 From: edytaamazur at GMAIL.COM (Edyta Mazur) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:34:09 -0600 Subject: looking for a room in Moscov Message-ID: Hello everybody, I am going to Moscow in January and I am looking for a room to rent, maybe some of you know some cheap place to live in Moscow? I will be very grateful for any help ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ameliede at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Nov 21 23:35:18 2007 From: ameliede at EARTHLINK.NET (Jules Levin) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:35:18 -0800 Subject: Hoch mir nicht kein chainik In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 09:52 AM 11/21/2007, you wrote: >My ex-wife's family used this expression; they were from one of >those places that used to be part of Russia but is now in eastern >Poland, so apparently the expression is more widespread than the >Baltic countries. > >Steve Seegmiller Strange. I think this expression is a blend of two expressions: 1. 'haken a chainik' "talk incessantly about some topic..." 2. "Macht mir nisht kein [sic! rhymes with Dane] chrein." 'Don't make me any horseradish' = Don't do me any favors. Confused blends of this type are not unusual in language. Jules Levin ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From lino59 at AMERITECH.NET Thu Nov 22 06:20:42 2007 From: lino59 at AMERITECH.NET (Deborah Hoffman) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:20:42 -0800 Subject: Hoch mir nicht kein chainik In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Interesting--I've encountered it in speakers from Subcarpathian Ukraine (where the chrein rhymes with wine and dine and not with rain and Spain). These same speakers, however, generally use "a" for the indefinite article, replacing "ein," which you'd think would render the phrase as Jules Levin has it, "haken a chainik" rather than "nisht kein chainik." Relexification? Gey veys... SEELANGS automatic digest system wrote: There are 4 messages totalling 159 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Hoch mir nicht kein chainik (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 09:52:48 -0800 From: Steve Seegmiller Subject: Re: Hoch mir nicht kein chainik My ex-wife's family used this expression; they were from one of those places that used to be part of Russia but is now in eastern Poland, so apparently the expression is more widespread than the Baltic countries. Steve Seegmiller ----------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:35:18 -0800 From: Jules Levin Subject: Re: Hoch mir nicht kein chainik At 09:52 AM 11/21/2007, you wrote: >My ex-wife's family used this expression; they were from one of >those places that used to be part of Russia but is now in eastern >Poland, so apparently the expression is more widespread than the >Baltic countries. > >Steve Seegmiller Strange. I think this expression is a blend of two expressions: 1. 'haken a chainik' "talk incessantly about some topic..." 2. "Macht mir nisht kein [sic! rhymes with Dane] chrein." 'Don't make me any horseradish' = Don't do me any favors. Confused blends of this type are not unusual in language. Jules Levin ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jerry3 at ROADRUNNER.COM Thu Nov 22 16:49:34 2007 From: jerry3 at ROADRUNNER.COM (Jerry Katsell) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 08:49:34 -0800 Subject: Chainik Message-ID: Dear Deborah and Seelangtsy! In my family the phrase went: "Hak nisht mir a chainik!" Also, for "who knows?", you probably want to say "Ver veys," and not "Gey veys." "Gey avek" is a common Yiddish expression to say "Go away". Best wishes, Jerry Katsell ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK Sat Nov 24 14:19:00 2007 From: Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK (Alexandra Smith) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:19:00 +0000 Subject: a new wave of censorship... Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Just to let you know about the disturbing news from St Petersburg regards a new wave of censorship.... You could find several reports regarding the weekly newsaper Novyj Peterburg published in the last two days here: http://www.newspb.org/ The latest issue was stopped by the local authorities and the editor Nikolai Adrushchenko has been arrested; the office has been searched, many items were taken away, including computers and discs, etc. The latest issue was meant to contain an article on Putin's critics and Marsh nesoglasnykh; G. Kasparov's essay and Adrushchenko's article criticising Putin's policies... All best, Alexandra ================================================ Alexandra Smith (PhD, University of London) Lecturer in Russian School of European Languages and Cultures The University of Edinburgh David Hume Tower George Square Edinburgh EX8 9JX UK tel. +44-(0)131-6511381 fax: +44- (0)131- 650-3604 e-mail: Alexandra.Smith at ed.ac.uk -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From marinabrodskaya at GMAIL.COM Sat Nov 24 19:45:25 2007 From: marinabrodskaya at GMAIL.COM (marina brodskaya) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 11:45:25 -0800 Subject: Chainik In-Reply-To: <001001c82d27$a94476f0$6501a8c0@D569F421> Message-ID: Dear Seelangovtsy -- My 17 year-old daughter is interested in attending a summer language program in Russia and would prefer either Moscow or St. Petersburg since that's where my roots are. Together we have looked at a few college-level programs, but she is afraid that she might feel left out given that she is still in high school and they are not. Well... I would love to get a few recommendations from you for programs that accept both high school and college students, or just high school students. A community service component would be most welcome as well. Although she has lived and participated in other programs abroad, this is the first time she has expressed an interest in going to Russia. The earliest she could start would be June 14th. I am grateful for any information and feedback you could provide. Zaranee blagodariu. Marina On Nov 22, 2007 8:49 AM, Jerry Katsell wrote: > > > > > Dear Deborah and Seelangtsy! > > > > In my family the phrase went: "Hak nisht mir a chainik!" > Also, for "who knows?", you probably want to say "Ver veys," and not > "Gey veys." > > "Gey avek" is a common Yiddish expression to say "Go away". > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Jerry Katsell > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Sun Nov 25 14:17:23 2007 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:17:23 +0000 Subject: Irony in Grossman's VSE TECHET Message-ID: Dear all, I am unsure how to read the last sentence of this passage. I don’t think it is ironical, but I am not sure. Завидя его, два раздевальщика выбежали из-за барьера, пришептывая: "Пожалте, пожалте", - и, похрапывая как жеребцы, в нетерпении тянулись к богатым пинегинским доспехам. Глаза у них были зоркие, хорошие глаза рысистых умных русских ребят из раздевалки интуристского ресторана, умевших точно запомнить, кто был да как одет, что сказал невзначай. Но уж к Пинегину с его депутатским значком они относились всей душой, открыто, почти как к непосредственному начальнику. No uzh k Pineginu s ego deputatskim znachkom oni otnosilis’ vsei dushoi, otkryto, pochti kak k neposredstvennomu nachal’niku. And are they open with him BECAUSE of his deputatskii znachok, or IN SPITE of it? (And am I right in thinking that this means he is a deputy to the Supreme Soviet?) Here is a very tentative first attempt at a translation: ‘They were observant, clever lynx-eyed Russian boys from an Intourist restaurant cloakroom – boys with a precise memory for who had been where, what he had been wearing and what he had happened to say. But they were entirely open with Pinegin, treating him, with his Deputy's badge, almost as if he were their immediate superior.’ Best Wishes, Robert ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From n-tyurina at NORTHWESTERN.EDU Mon Nov 26 01:50:24 2007 From: n-tyurina at NORTHWESTERN.EDU (Nina Wieda) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 01:50:24 +0000 Subject: Inviting question submissions from graduate students Message-ID: An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From klinela at COMCAST.NET Mon Nov 26 04:19:22 2007 From: klinela at COMCAST.NET (Laura Kline) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 23:19:22 -0500 Subject: Russian business culture In-Reply-To: <50291.72.230.33.251.1195568643.squirrel@webmail.albany.edu> Message-ID: I would like to thank everyone for their helpful suggestions on books and movies on Russian business culture. Best, Laura Kline ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From alexaaa at BGNET.BGSU.EDU Mon Nov 26 04:27:11 2007 From: alexaaa at BGNET.BGSU.EDU (alexaaa@bgnet.bgsu.edu) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 23:27:11 -0500 Subject: V lesu rodilas yolochka In-Reply-To: <001001c82d27$a94476f0$6501a8c0@D569F421> Message-ID: Hello everyone! Does anybody know a good translation of Russian New Year's song "V lesu rodilas yolochka" and where to get it? Thank you! If someone is interested, I found a pretty useful website with old Soviet songs recorded in mp3. you can listen to them right there. Plus, as far as I see, it is a safe web-page: there is no spam and pop up windows. Here it is: http://www.sovmusic.ru/english/alphabet.php?letter=V Cheers, Anastasia A. Alexandrova Instructor of Russian language and culture Russian Club Advisor Assistant Director of Russian Study Abroad Program German, Russian, East Asian Languages Department Bowling Green State University (419) 372 9517 (419) 372 2268 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From peitlovakatarina at TISCALI.IT Mon Nov 26 09:45:02 2007 From: peitlovakatarina at TISCALI.IT (Peitlova Katarina) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 10:45:02 +0100 Subject: v lesu rodilas'... Message-ID: Go to site: www.snegovichok.ru Best wishes Katarina Peitlova,PhDr. Italy ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rrobin at GWU.EDU Mon Nov 26 13:29:30 2007 From: rrobin at GWU.EDU (Richard Robin) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:29:30 -0500 Subject: Looking for US native informants for Russian colleague Message-ID: Dear SEELANGovtsy, A Russian colleague of mine, Olga Maslova, is completing her dissertation in sociolinguistics at Moscow State University. She wants to find 50 respondents, GRADUATE STUDENTS IN THE HUMANITIES OR LAW STUDENTS, to fill out a one-hour online survey. Each participant will be paid $15 cash/check to complete the online survey. They purpose of the survey is to collect data on attitudes towards various degrees of speech aggression. It takes 60 minutes. The survey designer will not have access to student names, only to pseudonyms. The survey asks for no personal information. Respondents are asked to rate various printed utterances as to the degree of speech aggression and/or politeness ( e.g. "I'm warning you...!) Respondents are also asked to write down examples of utterances that fit the categories listed in the survey. Because the investigator is Russian, writing in Russia for a strictly Russian audience, she is not IRB-certified. (IRB-like requirements are unknown in Russia.) However, I am IRB certified in Social Sciences. I have examined the survey thoroughly and while one can criticize it methodologically, nothing in it raises issues central to IRB. You yourself can see the survey at http://home.gwu.edu/~rrobin/maslova.html . If you or any of your graduate students are interested in taking the survey and receiving a $15 payment, please respond to me off-list. Sincerely, Richard Robin -- Richard M. Robin, Ph.D. Director Russian Language Program Technical Advisor, GW Language Сenter The George Washington University Washington, DC 20008 202-994-7081 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Russkiy tekst v UTF-8 From jrouhie at EMAIL.UKY.EDU Mon Nov 26 14:32:12 2007 From: jrouhie at EMAIL.UKY.EDU (Jeanmarie Rouhier-Willoughby) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:32:12 -0500 Subject: First Call for Papers AAASS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Slavic and East European Folklore Association (SEEFA), an AAASS affiliate, is searching for participants for the following panels. One need not be a member of SEEFA to present. We are eager to organize interdisciplinary panels with specialists from a variety of disciplines. SEEFA (and its annual journal Folklorica) focuses on material related to all the Slavic countries as well as Hungary, Romania, Albania and the non-Slavic countries of the former Soviet Union. The SEEFA web site is: http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/SEEFA/ Back issues of Folklorica may be found there. Call for papers for AAASS Nov. 20-23, 2008 in Philadelphia, PA. Folk Religion Electronic and Other Media in Teaching and Research on Slavic/EE Culture Folk Prose Genres (legends, tales, bylichki, etc.) Folk Culture and Identity Teaching Folklore The Festivalization or Commercialization of Folk Culture Traditionalists and Wannabes: Non-Slavs in North American "Folk" Performance Groups If you are interested in submitting a paper for one of these organized panels, please send the following by January 4 to Jeanmarie Rouhier-Willoughby at j.rouhier at uky.edu: Paper title and brief abstract; requests for AV equipment; cv using the AAASS C.V. form (available online at www.aaass.org). Indicate the panel(s) to which you are submitting . You must be a member of AAASS or a foreign scholar to present. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From lzaharkov at WITTENBERG.EDU Mon Nov 26 15:36:44 2007 From: lzaharkov at WITTENBERG.EDU (Lila W. Zaharkov) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 10:36:44 -0500 Subject: Russian business culture In-Reply-To: <002f01c82fe3$85637ab0$6a00a8c0@yourf78bf48ce2> Message-ID: At 11:19 PM 11/25/2007, you wrote: >I would like to thank everyone for their helpful suggestions on books and >movies on Russian business culture. >Best, >Laura Kline > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- Would it be possibel to share the list for all? We all need help in creating new courses. Thanks much! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From beth.holmgren at DUKE.EDU Mon Nov 26 15:41:36 2007 From: beth.holmgren at DUKE.EDU (Beth Holmgren) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 10:41:36 -0500 Subject: "The Gender Question" at next year's AAASS Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I write to let you know that the theme of next year's AAASS convention (to be held in Philadelphia, November 20-23, 2008) is "The Gender Question." The deadline for panel/roundtable proposals is January 11, 2008. A description of this theme is cut and pasted in below. AAASS just launched the policy of themed panels/roundtables at this year's convention. Of course panel and roundtable proposals on any topic in our various fields and regions of specialization are also welcome. For more information about next year's convention and instructions for submitting panel/roundtable proposals, check out this link: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~aaass/convention/cfp.html Thanks for your attention, Beth Holmgren The theme of the 2008 convention is "The Gender Question." The theme of “The Gender Question” for the 2008 AAASS convention invites participants to reflect on and assess past and current practices in incorporating gender in our scholarship and teaching. All panel and roundtable topics engaging this project are welcome; the following questions are offered as guidelines for designing relevant topics. * How and how effectively has gender been integrated into scholarship and teaching in your specific discipline in Slavic and Eurasian studies? Is analysis of women's roles and achievements incorporated into mainstream scholarly and teaching surveys in your discipline, or do these topics figure as addenda to surveys or the subject of special topics courses? * What is the currency of relatively new studies of masculinity and femininity in your discipline? * How has gender theory based on the analysis of other national societies and cultures been useful or problematic for your work in Slavic and Eurasian studies? * How have in-country specialists in Slavic and Eurasian studies responded to the gender theory adapted and/or developed in the work of American Slavists/Eurasianists and vice versa? Have we been engaged in a productive dialogue on gender topics? * What has been the experience — the specific challenges, the extent of their outreach — of centers and universities teaching gender and gender theory in Slavic and Eurasian countries? * What connections have been/are being made between gender studies scholarship, social legislation, and everyday practice in Slavic and Eurasian countries? We encourage panels and roundtables that discuss this theme. Please select “themed panel/roundtable” from the list of categories and enter this on your panel/roundtable proposal. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rrobin at GWU.EDU Mon Nov 26 15:54:01 2007 From: rrobin at GWU.EDU (Richard Robin) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 10:54:01 -0500 Subject: Looking for US native informants for Russian colleague In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I should clarify: the researcher is looking for native *American English*speakers. -RR On Nov 26, 2007 8:29 AM, Richard Robin wrote: > Dear SEELANGovtsy, > > A Russian colleague of mine, Olga Maslova, is completing her > dissertation in sociolinguistics at Moscow State University. She wants > to find 50 respondents, GRADUATE STUDENTS IN THE HUMANITIES OR LAW > STUDENTS, > to fill out a one-hour online survey. > > Each participant will be paid $15 cash/check to complete the online > survey. > They purpose of the survey is to collect data on attitudes towards > various degrees of speech aggression. It takes 60 minutes. > > The survey designer will not have access to student names, only to > pseudonyms. > The survey asks for no personal information. > > Respondents are asked to rate various printed utterances as to the > degree of speech aggression and/or politeness ( e.g. "I'm warning > you...!) Respondents are also asked to write down examples of utterances > that > fit the categories listed in the survey. > > Because the investigator is Russian, writing in Russia for a strictly > Russian audience, she is not IRB-certified. (IRB-like requirements are > unknown in Russia.) However, I am IRB certified in Social Sciences. I > have examined the survey thoroughly and while one can criticize it > methodologically, nothing in it raises issues central to IRB. > > You yourself can see the survey at http://home.gwu.edu/~rrobin/ maslova > .html . > > If you or any of your graduate students are interested in taking the > survey and receiving a $15 > payment, please respond to me off-list. > > Sincerely, > Richard Robin > > -- > Richard M. Robin, Ph.D. > Director Russian Language Program > Technical Advisor, GW Language Сenter > The George Washington University > Washington, DC 20008 > 202-994-7081 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Russkiy tekst v UTF-8 -- Richard M. Robin, Ph.D. Director Russian Language Program Technical Advisor, GW Language Сenter The George Washington University Washington, DC 20008 202-994-7081 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Russkiy tekst v UTF-8 From caron.4 at OSU.EDU Mon Nov 26 18:00:19 2007 From: caron.4 at OSU.EDU (Inna Caron) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:00:19 -0500 Subject: standard rates for written translation Message-ID: Dear SEELANGers, When you have been contracted to do a commercial translation, is the payment subject to agreement between the parties, or is there a more or less standard rate per page of written translation? If so, 1) Do you charge per page of the original or translated text? 2) What is the format of the chargeable page (say, in Word) - is it single- or double-spaced? 11 or 12 pt font size? 3) If the pay is per original text page, and there is a photograph or a table taking up some space, do you still charge as for a full page, or do you extract the text portions and calculate the number of pages sans all the illustrations? Thank you very much in advance for any information. Inna Caron, Ohio State University ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------- Cowardice is the worst of human vices, because all the rest come from it. - Mikhail Bulgakov ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Lien.Verpoest at ARTS.KULEUVEN.BE Mon Nov 26 17:57:57 2007 From: Lien.Verpoest at ARTS.KULEUVEN.BE (Lien Verpoest) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:57:57 +0100 Subject: treaty Message-ID: Dear SEELANGers, Maybe a bit off topic, but could anyone provide me with a (digital copy) of the CIS treaty creating the Economic Union? It was published in the Bulleten Mezhdunarodnykh Dogovorov 4 in 1994. Unfortunately, I do not have a copy and I need to check some things in this document. Please reply to this email address off list. Many thanks! sincerely, Lien Verpoest Dept. of Slavonic Languages & East European Studies Faculty of Arts, KU Leuven Blijde Inkomststraat 21 3000 Leuven Disclaimer: http://www.kuleuven.be/cwis/email_disclaimer.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From atacama at GLOBAL.CO.ZA Mon Nov 26 18:26:50 2007 From: atacama at GLOBAL.CO.ZA (Vera Beljakova) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:26:50 +0200 Subject: standard rates for written translation Message-ID: Loo The norm is to charge per word. Some charge per character. Look on the internet at other translation websites....Paul Gallagher is one famous translator. Norm is per original text because otherwise you can spin it out and become very wordy.  Besides, an English text will always be shorter by at least 10%. However, Word will do you a word count into the translated language, and therefore it is quicker and easier to charge for what you can see in the word count field. Russians and Germans are verbose, English are not. Page size and illustrations are immaterial, since you are not translating pictures, only captions. Regards, Vera Beljakova Johannesburg  ----- Original Message ------  From:Inna Caron  Sent:Monday, November 26, 2007 20:00  To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU;  Subject:[SEELANGS] standard rates for written translation Dear SEELANGers, When you have been contracted to do a commercial translation, is the payment subject to agreement between the parties, or is there a more or less standard rate per page of written translation? If so, 1) Do you charge per page of the original or translated text? 2) What is the format of the chargeable page (say, in Word) - is it single- or double-spaced? 11 or 12 pt font size? 3) If the pay is per original text page, and there is a photograph or a table taking up some space, do you still charge as for a full page, or do you extract the text portions and calculate the number of pages sans all the illustrations? Thank you very much in advance for any information. Inna Caron, Ohio State University ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------- Cowardice is the worst of human vices, because all the rest come from it. - Mikhail Bulgakov ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Mon Nov 26 19:03:22 2007 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:03:22 -0500 Subject: standard rates for written translation In-Reply-To: <00c401c83056$351e5480$9f5afd80$@4@osu.edu> Message-ID: Inna Caron wrote: > When you have been contracted to do a commercial translation, is the > payment subject to agreement between the parties, or is there a more > or less standard rate per page of written translation? If so, > > 1) Do you charge per page of the original or translated text? > > 2) What is the format of the chargeable page (say, in Word) - is it > single- or double-spaced? 11 or 12 pt font size? > > 3) If the pay is per original text page, and there is a photograph or > a table taking up some space, do you still charge as for a full page, > or do you extract the text portions and calculate the number of pages > sans all the illustrations? > > Thank you very much in advance for any information. Well, I can't speak for academia, but out here in "the real world" (no offense intended -- I called it that when I was in academia), we don't generally charge by the page (pages can vary so widely, as you know). In the US, we charge based on word count; in Europe it's more common to charge by the line (where a line is defined as 55 or 60 characters), and sometimes by the "standard page" of 1500-1800 characters. Some systems include spaces, some do not, but as long as both parties agree on the counting system it doesn't really matter. In the US, it's common but not universal to charge by the English count. The advantage of charging by the source count is that everyone knows the price before the work begins; the advantage of charging by the target count is that some source texts expand more than others and this accounts for it. I believe the above answers your question 2). Tables are generally charged the same way as body text -- by word or character count; if the formatting is unusually heinous you can usually negotiate a formatting surcharge. The same goes for graphics -- a simple photo in the source file that requires no processing is generally just thrown in at no charge, but a detailed schematic requiring replacement text in lots of little boxes will incur additional charges. Finally, if you are a professional translator, you should devise your own rate sheet to which you adhere more or less. Translation agencies have their own rate sheets, and they will push you to accept their rates while you pull to get your rates. Direct clients are generally less systematic in their approach to translation rates, and they will generally pay what you ask or walk away. You should not feel obliged to take whatever is offered by a particular client, but if lots of clients offer similar rates for a particular class of work, that's what the market will bear. You can then decide whether you want to do that class of work or look for something else. The simplest way to figure rates is this: first determine how much you need to make per hour, including taxes, expenses, etc., remembering to include your own profit. Then estimate how many hours the job will take and multiply to get the end price. For example, if you need to make $50 an hour and a job will take you eight hours, you should charge $400. If the word count is 10,000, that means you're charging four cents a word. (These figures are for illustration purposes only and not intended as recommendations.) In general, commercial clients will pay much more than academic ones, and sci/tech clients will pay much more than literary ones. As in all businesses, YMMV -- if you can translate /Harry Potter/, you can probably get more than the average literary translator. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From tritt002 at TC.UMN.EDU Mon Nov 26 19:30:11 2007 From: tritt002 at TC.UMN.EDU (Mike Trittipo) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:30:11 -0600 Subject: standard rates for written translation In-Reply-To: <00c401c83056$351e5480$9f5afd80$@4@osu.edu> Message-ID: On Nov 26 2007, Inna Caron wrote: > When you have been contracted to do a commercial translation, is the > payment subject to agreement between the parties, or is there a more or > less standard rate per page of written translation? If so, . . .? Any agreement should specify the price and payment terms. So it's a matter of agreement. If you don't like an offered rate or price, you should reject it; and of course you may counter-offer a rate or price you prefer. E-mail discussion of "standard" rates can raise antitrust issues both in the U.S. and in the E.U. So it's best to steer clear of anything that smacks of a recommendation of X rate or Y rate. The general approach that Paul Gallagher has outlined is valid, however: each individual begins with his or her own numbers as to what he or she wants or needs, and each may take different amounts of time to produce a result in line with a client's requirements. Other decisions follow from those variables. Most often, I have charged per word of the target English. But sometimes I've charged a flat price, based on a reasonably accurate source word count and experience with the particular kind of text. Of course, any word count can be turned into a page count, if the definition of "page" is agreed upon. (Even where the "normostrana" is common, e.g., the Czech Republic, there are sometimes variations on what it is, ranging from 30 lines of 50 characters to 30 lines of 65 characters, counting spaces as characters. And of course there were questions even with typewriters about how to count partial "pages.") Michael Trittipo Minneapolis, Minnesota ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From atacama at GLOBAL.CO.ZA Mon Nov 26 19:57:08 2007 From: atacama at GLOBAL.CO.ZA (Vera Beljakova) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:57:08 +0200 Subject: No time rates : standard rates for written translation Message-ID: I have always found it unfair to charge by time, because then the slow incompetent translator will earn more than the quick and experienced one. The best way is to gauge from the Internet and see how other translation agencies function.....frankly, now, a lot of translation work is being done in Russia or the CIS or East European countries where work is excellent and delivery times are fast. Many of the technical texts are now being translated in Russia by academics on a freelance basis.  The end result might need a bit of editing, but at least the technical content is accurate.  That's what I do now - when and where possible, I subcontract to Russian retired academics. Vera Beljakova  ----- Original Message ------  From:Mike Trittipo  Sent:Monday, November 26, 2007 21:30  To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU;  Subject:Re: [SEELANGS] standard rates for written translation On Nov 26 2007, Inna Caron wrote: > When you have been contracted to do a commercial translation, is the > payment subject to agreement between the parties, or is there a more or > less standard rate per page of written translation? If so, . . .? Any agreement should specify the price and payment terms. So it's a matter of agreement. If you don't like an offered rate or price, you should reject it; and of course you may counter-offer a rate or price you prefer. E-mail discussion of "standard" rates can raise antitrust issues both in the U.S. and in the E.U. So it's best to steer clear of anything that smacks of a recommendation of X rate or Y rate. The general approach that Paul Gallagher has outlined is valid, however: each individual begins with his or her own numbers as to what he or she wants or needs, and each may take different amounts of time to produce a result in line with a client's requirements. Other decisions follow from those variables. Most often, I have charged per word of the target English. But sometimes I've charged a flat price, based on a reasonably accurate source word count and experience with the particular kind of text. Of course, any word count can be turned into a page count, if the definition of "page" is agreed upon. (Even where the "normostrana" is common, e.g., the Czech Republic, there are sometimes variations on what it is, ranging from 30 lines of 50 characters to 30 lines of 65 characters, counting spaces as characters. And of course there were questions even with typewriters about how to count partial "pages.") Michael Trittipo Minneapolis, Minnesota ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Mon Nov 26 20:54:11 2007 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 15:54:11 -0500 Subject: standard rates for written translation In-Reply-To: <474B187A.1020204@pbg-translations.com> Message-ID: P.S. I would also add that when negotiating, there are three fundamental factors to consider: quality, speed, and price. The client can have his way on any two, but in that case, I need to have my way on the third. So for example, if he needs high quality at a low price, I need to have plenty of time. You should never accept a deal where the client has his way on all three. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From s-mcreynolds at NORTHWESTERN.EDU Mon Nov 26 22:09:28 2007 From: s-mcreynolds at NORTHWESTERN.EDU (Susan McReynolds) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:09:28 -0600 Subject: Norton edition of The Brothers Karamazov Message-ID: Dear SEELANGERs, Do you use the Norton Critical Edition of The Brothers Karamazov for teaching or research? Do you have experiences about its usefulness or limitations to share, or have suggestions about how to improve it? If so, please contact me off list: susan.mcreynolds at gmail.com. I am currently revising it and welcome your input. sincerely, Susan McReynolds -- Susan McReynolds Oddo Associate Professor Director of Undergraduate Studies Slavic Languages and Literatures Northwestern University 1860 Campus Drive 4-113 Crowe Hall Evanston, Illinois 60208-2163 phone (847) 491-5636 fax (847) 467-2596 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kbtrans at COX.NET Mon Nov 26 22:49:08 2007 From: kbtrans at COX.NET (Kim Braithwaite) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:49:08 -0800 Subject: No time rates : standard rates for written translation Message-ID: To me, "might need a bit of editing" sends up a red flag. Once in a while a client will ask me to "look over" a translation that someone else has done and "clean it up a little." I did that a couple of times, years ago, and learned that it doesn't pay. Quite apart from a missing or misplaced "the" or "a," and the like, if you care about accuracy and idiom it takes more time and effort to check the translation against the original document, and correct it, than the client wants to pay for (since he/she has already paid the translator, you see). Almost always these days I politely offer to translate the item from scratch at my usual rate, otherwise no thanks. I contend that it is reasonable to quote an hourly rate for certain kinds of jobs (editing might be one). The "incompetent translator," of course, is a problem no matter how the remuneration is established. For documents that are not connected prose such as articles and books - for example birth certificates, transcripts, product lists and the like - I generally eyeball the item, decide how long it will take me and how much I want for it, and quote a flat fee. Most clients accept. Mr Kim Braithwaite, Translator "Good is better than evil, because it's nicer" - Mammy Yokum (Al Capp) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vera Beljakova" To: Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 11:57 AM Subject: [SEELANGS] No time rates : standard rates for written translation I have always found it unfair to charge by time, because then the slow incompetent translator will earn more than the quick and experienced one. The best way is to gauge from the Internet and see how other translation agencies function.....frankly, now, a lot of translation work is being done in Russia or the CIS or East European countries where work is excellent and delivery times are fast. Many of the technical texts are now being translated in Russia by academics on a freelance basis. The end result might need a bit of editing, but at least the technical content is accurate. That's what I do now - when and where possible, I subcontract to Russian retired academics. Vera Beljakova ----- Original Message ------ From:Mike Trittipo Sent:Monday, November 26, 2007 21:30 To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU; Subject:Re: [SEELANGS] standard rates for written translation On Nov 26 2007, Inna Caron wrote: > When you have been contracted to do a commercial translation, is the > payment subject to agreement between the parties, or is there a more or > less standard rate per page of written translation? If so, . . .? Any agreement should specify the price and payment terms. So it's a matter of agreement. If you don't like an offered rate or price, you should reject it; and of course you may counter-offer a rate or price you prefer. E-mail discussion of "standard" rates can raise antitrust issues both in the U.S. and in the E.U. So it's best to steer clear of anything that smacks of a recommendation of X rate or Y rate. The general approach that Paul Gallagher has outlined is valid, however: each individual begins with his or her own numbers as to what he or she wants or needs, and each may take different amounts of time to produce a result in line with a client's requirements. Other decisions follow from those variables. Most often, I have charged per word of the target English. But sometimes I've charged a flat price, based on a reasonably accurate source word count and experience with the particular kind of text. Of course, any word count can be turned into a page count, if the definition of "page" is agreed upon. (Even where the "normostrana" is common, e.g., the Czech Republic, there are sometimes variations on what it is, ranging from 30 lines of 50 characters to 30 lines of 65 characters, counting spaces as characters. And of course there were questions even with typewriters about how to count partial "pages.") Michael Trittipo Minneapolis, Minnesota ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From klinela at COMCAST.NET Mon Nov 26 22:49:06 2007 From: klinela at COMCAST.NET (Laura Kline) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:49:06 -0500 Subject: Russian business culture In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.1.20071126103549.01d86eb0@imap.wittenberg.edu> Message-ID: Here they are: The Wedding (DVD) Tycoon (DVD) Homo Zapiens by Victor Pelevin The Shirt by Evgenii Grishkovetz Novels by Yuliya Latynina >------------------------------------------------------------------------- Would it be possibel to share the list for all? We all need help in creating new courses. Thanks much! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From tritt002 at TC.UMN.EDU Tue Nov 27 03:12:09 2007 From: tritt002 at TC.UMN.EDU (Mike Trittipo) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:12:09 -0600 Subject: No time rates : standard rates for written translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Vera Beljakova" wrote: > To: > I have always found it unfair to charge by time, because then the slow > incompetent translator will earn more than the quick and experienced one. Please note that I did not suggest charging by time. I wrote only about charging by word or normostrana. I did mention time, but only as part of the internal process a translator can use to decide where his or her "fish or cut bait" zone is. Illustration: Translator A does 300 words per hour at, let's say just for now, an "acceptable" delivered quality. Translator B averages 600 wph at the same delivered quality, counting all editing time, etc. Translator A wants to make $90,000 a year. Translator B will be happy with $72,000 a year. Translator A thinks she can be actually translating for 2000 hours a year. Translator B believes she can actually translate about 1200 hours a year, because she wants some days of vacation, and knows there will be "overhead" time (negotiating, seeking clients, marketing, billing, doing taxes, fixing computers, etc.). Translator A needs to charge at least 90,000/(300*2000) per word ($0.15), or else operate at a loss for a while or else do something else or adjust her expectations, or other "or others." Translator B needs to charge at least $72,000/(600*1200) ($0.10), with the same consequences in case that isn't possible for any reason (e.g., clients won't pay it, or there aren't enough who will, etc.) Neither translator needs to tell, nor would either of them naturally tell, any potential client about this internal calculation; each will just name his or her price per word or per "standardized" page or line or character, or name a flat fee based again on some internal calculation that needn't be shared with a prospective client. But time does enter into any business's rational determination of economic evaluation of whether any activity is "_worthwhile_" doing ("worthwhile" being inherently a time-driven word). Of course, if one only does an occasional translation, one might set the "worthwhile" threshold somewhere else, and might for the sake of some not directly pecuniary factors do something that would not seem, purely in terms of a calculable hourly income, seem to be "worth it" for the money alone. The figures given are, obviously, just to allow some math, and do not represent any recommendation. They could be in euros or crowns or yen with no difference in principle. As for time billing, see http://www.lawcomix.com/bp.07/09.19.07.html (and figure out how many hours a day the 8900 billable hours a year is). :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Elizabeth_Lipschultz at PITZER.EDU Tue Nov 27 03:43:15 2007 From: Elizabeth_Lipschultz at PITZER.EDU (Elizabeth Lipschultz) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:43:15 -0800 Subject: Study Abroad Message-ID: Hi, My name is Elizabeth Lipschultz I am interested in studying abroad in Russia in the spring of 2009. I have no experience speaking the Russian language, but will have completed the intro level by the time I wish to study abroad. I am interested in Russian Film specifically, but also Russian culture in general. Does anyone have a suggestion for a good Study Abroad option that fits my begginers language level and film interest? Any advice would be great Thanks -Liz ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jwilson at SRAS.ORG Tue Nov 27 06:59:27 2007 From: jwilson at SRAS.ORG (Josh Wilson) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 09:59:27 +0300 Subject: No time rates : standard rates for written translation In-Reply-To: <007501c8307e$8e497350$6501a8c0@your46e94owx6a> Message-ID: As someone who often pays for translation, I can tell you that the arrangement I usually use runs as follows: I pay for translations based on a character count in the source language. I would never pay based on the target language as that would not encourage brevity, which I highly value as an editor working in the English language. Usually pay is figured at some sum per 1800 characters - I often start with a new translator saying that the 1800 includes spaces. After they have produced a few satisfactory translations, I bump their pay a bit by excluding spaces from the 1800. I would also add that I would hesitate to pay a translator working to translate into a target language that is not their native language. As Mr. Braithwaite says, "'might need a bit of editing' sends up a red flag" and I've generally found that a bad translation is worse than no translation. One organization I edit for was using a local translation agency when I first came onboard. The agency insisted that their translators were trained specifically in the type of terminology (accounting, tax, and legal), that we were using. I would need to only "proofread" their texts. However, even the word "edit" would not be applicable to what needed to be done to the text to make it publishable. The term needed was "translation," (!) only this time Ruslish>English. I soon convinced the organization that they needed to dump that agency and let me find a decent freelancer, preferably a native speaker. That said, I should also add that I've worked nearly exclusively with translators based inside Russia. I've seldom worked with Russian translators who have spent years living in a foreign country, soaking up idioms and natural speech. I should also add that the freelance translator I currently use most often, and whom I am generally quite satisfied with in terms of speed, accuracy, and price, is Russian. However, she's also married to an American and has spoken English almost exclusively in her household for years (so that their children will be exposed to both languages). Hope that helps somewhat. Best, Josh Wilson Asst. Director The School of Russian and Asian Studies Editor-in-Chief Vestnik, The Journal of Russian and Asian Studies www.sras.org jwilson at sras.org Also: General Editor Alinga Consulting Group www.acg.ru/english General Editor The US-Russian Chamber of Commerce of New England www.usrccne.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jwilson at SRAS.ORG Tue Nov 27 07:05:43 2007 From: jwilson at SRAS.ORG (Josh Wilson) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:05:43 +0300 Subject: No time rates : standard rates for written translation In-Reply-To: <200711270659.lAR6xS64019260@alinga.com> Message-ID: Oops. Revise that to: "Usually pay is figured at some sum per 1800 characters - I often start with a new translator saying that the 1800 EXcludes spaces. After they have produced a few satisfactory translations, I bump their pay a bit by INcluding spaces WITH the 1800." And, of course, even native speakers can make mistakes - but I'll chalk that one to my poor math skills. -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Josh Wilson Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 9:59 AM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] No time rates : standard rates for written translation As someone who often pays for translation, I can tell you that the arrangement I usually use runs as follows: I pay for translations based on a character count in the source language. I would never pay based on the target language as that would not encourage brevity, which I highly value as an editor working in the English language. Usually pay is figured at some sum per 1800 characters - I often start with a new translator saying that the 1800 includes spaces. After they have produced a few satisfactory translations, I bump their pay a bit by excluding spaces from the 1800. I would also add that I would hesitate to pay a translator working to translate into a target language that is not their native language. As Mr. Braithwaite says, "'might need a bit of editing' sends up a red flag" and I've generally found that a bad translation is worse than no translation. One organization I edit for was using a local translation agency when I first came onboard. The agency insisted that their translators were trained specifically in the type of terminology (accounting, tax, and legal), that we were using. I would need to only "proofread" their texts. However, even the word "edit" would not be applicable to what needed to be done to the text to make it publishable. The term needed was "translation," (!) only this time Ruslish>English. I soon convinced the organization that they needed to dump that agency and let me find a decent freelancer, preferably a native speaker. That said, I should also add that I've worked nearly exclusively with translators based inside Russia. I've seldom worked with Russian translators who have spent years living in a foreign country, soaking up idioms and natural speech. I should also add that the freelance translator I currently use most often, and whom I am generally quite satisfied with in terms of speed, accuracy, and price, is Russian. However, she's also married to an American and has spoken English almost exclusively in her household for years (so that their children will be exposed to both languages). Hope that helps somewhat. Best, Josh Wilson Asst. Director The School of Russian and Asian Studies Editor-in-Chief Vestnik, The Journal of Russian and Asian Studies www.sras.org jwilson at sras.org Also: General Editor Alinga Consulting Group www.acg.ru/english General Editor The US-Russian Chamber of Commerce of New England www.usrccne.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From peitlovakatarina at TISCALI.IT Tue Nov 27 15:57:53 2007 From: peitlovakatarina at TISCALI.IT (Peitlova Katarina) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:57:53 +0100 Subject: Irony in Grossman's VSE TECHET Message-ID: Но уж к Пинегину с его депутатским значком они относились всей душой, открыто, почти как к непосредственному начальнику. And are they open with him BECAUSE of his deputatskii znachok, or IN SPITE of it? (And am I right in thinking that this means he is a deputy to the Supreme Soviet?) I think that they are open with Pinegin BECAUSE of his deputatskij znachok. If he wasn't DEPUTAT he were not aloud to enter in inturistskij restoran. There's no irony in it. As for deputat v verxovnyj sovet?. I think he could be deputat rajsoveta. Ivan Grigorjevich meets Pinegin in Leningrad.And Pinegin thoughts about his car;on pozhalel hto u nego netu masiny ...eto znachit chto on v Leningrade zanimaet takoj post ,po kotoromy emu daetsja mashina s voditelem. Da jescio vspominaet kak on sebja chuvstvuet pri vzgljade Ivana Grigorievicha :... vokrug vse moi referenty,sekretari,voditel' ...... eto tozhe pokazyvajet,chto on rabotaet zdes' ( v Leningrade) ; vrjad li byli by u nego sekretari i referenty esli by on byl deputatom v Verxovnyj Sovet ,a rabotal by v Leningrade na drugom postu.There were sovets in every city: Leningradskij rajonnyj sovet narodnyx deputatov. That's only how I interpretate the text. Best wishes Katarina Peitlova PhDr. Italy ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From tsergay at ALBANY.EDU Tue Nov 27 17:04:23 2007 From: tsergay at ALBANY.EDU (Timothy Sergay) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:04:23 -0500 Subject: standard rates for written translation Message-ID: Dear Josh and SEELANGers, When I was actively freelancing as a translator I occasionally compared word counts of Russian originals and my English translations; if memory serves I noticed about an 8-10% increase in word count going from Russian to English, while character counts would be significantly closer to each other. I attributed this to the underlying linguistic fact that Russian is synthetic while English is analytic. I still think that's correct, but maybe SEELANGers with stronger backgrounds in linguistics could weigh in on this. In other words, verbosity in the target language (English) wasn't the issue: it was the fact that the English noun system requires all kinds of articles and prepositions to convey what Russian nouns convey through the case system and often without prepositions, while the English verbal system requires auxiliaries while the Russian verbal system can even dispense with repeating the subject pronoun. I do understand why someone translating, say, lists of terms from English to Russian would conclude that English is more concise than Russian as a whole (Russian terms compared to English often look like periphrases -- we can say "toenail clippers" in English while Russian seems to require things like "nozhnitsy dlia nogtei pal'tsev nog"). But I think the general fact is that in semantically equivalent blocks of text, English will naturally have more word boundaries than Russian. As for charging translation clients, for all these reasons I think charging by character count (and judging "verbosity" likewise by character count) rather than word count makes sense and is a good use of the advantages created by computerized word processing. As for never paying based on target-language counts at all so as to encourage brevity, you may have arrived at this idea, Josh, through bitter experience, but speaking as a translator, I find it hard to imagine anyone really worth their salt in this business going out of their way to deliberately pad a word count. Padding your word count is hardly the way to acquire repeat clients, and in any case, it's hard enough just to get things right semantically and recreate stylistic attributes as far as possible. I've met colleagues who take great personal umbrage at payment practices that imply that they must be vigilantly "incentivized" against verbosity in their work. Best wishes to all, Tim Sergay > As someone who often pays for translation, I can tell you that the > arrangement I usually use runs as follows: > > I pay for translations based on a character count in the source language. > I > would never pay based on the target language as that would not encourage > brevity, which I highly value as an editor working in the English > language. > Usually pay is figured at some sum per 1800 characters ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Tue Nov 27 17:50:12 2007 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:50:12 -0500 Subject: standard rates for written translation In-Reply-To: <49219.169.226.153.46.1196183063.squirrel@webmail.albany.edu> Message-ID: Timothy Sergay wrote: > Dear Josh and SEELANGers, > > When I was actively freelancing as a translator I occasionally compared > word counts of Russian originals and my English translations; if memory > serves I noticed about an 8-10% increase in word count going from Russian > to English, while character counts would be significantly closer to each > other. I attributed this to the underlying linguistic fact that Russian is > synthetic while English is analytic. I still think that's correct, but > maybe SEELANGers with stronger backgrounds in linguistics could weigh in > on this. In other words, verbosity in the target language (English) wasn't > the issue: it was the fact that the English noun system requires all kinds > of articles and prepositions to convey what Russian nouns convey through > the case system and often without prepositions, while the English verbal > system requires auxiliaries while the Russian verbal system can even > dispense with repeating the subject pronoun. I do understand why someone > translating, say, lists of terms from English to Russian would conclude > that English is more concise than Russian as a whole (Russian terms > compared to English often look like periphrases -- we can say "toenail > clippers" in English while Russian seems to require things like "nozhnitsy > dlia nogtei pal'tsev nog"). But I think the general fact is that in > semantically equivalent blocks of text, English will naturally have more > word boundaries than Russian. In my experience, different categories of text expand different amounts -- legalese tends to expand more, ad copy less. But the single factor that is most important is how much time I have to draft and revise the translation. The more I revise, the more concise and natural the English becomes. My slapdash first drafts hew too closely to the Russian (in several respects), and while they may technically be "grammatical" and "understandable" English, they don't read like originals. > As for charging translation clients, for all these reasons I think > charging by character count (and judging "verbosity" likewise by character > count) rather than word count makes sense and is a good use of the > advantages created by computerized word processing. > > As for never paying based on target-language counts at all so as to > encourage brevity, you may have arrived at this idea, Josh, through bitter > experience, but speaking as a translator, I find it hard to imagine anyone > really worth their salt in this business going out of their way to > deliberately pad a word count. Padding your word count is hardly the way > to acquire repeat clients, and in any case, it's hard enough just to get > things right semantically and recreate stylistic attributes as far as > possible. I've met colleagues who take great personal umbrage at payment > practices that imply that they must be vigilantly "incentivized" against > verbosity in their work. Following onto my remarks above, an agency is reasonable in wanting translators to review and revise their copy before sending it in. There are obviously various schools of thought as to where to draw the line between the translator's job and the editor's, but as you say if you want repeat business, you have to minimize the agency's editing costs. If that wounds your pride, you'll have to find a stable of ignorant clients who accept whatever hash you send, and I'm sure that's not the Sergay way. But I have encountered successful "professional" translators who are very good at churning out natural-sounding English that bears only a cursory relationship to the source text, and while their direct clients may think they're getting a good translation because it reads well, I know better and choose not to hire them. Some of them were outraged at my choice, but I'd rather have /them/ outraged than my end client, and I'm not willing to put in all the extra hours it takes to revise their copy. As you can see, I don't think anyone goes out of their way to pad their counts, but a few translators are far too lazy or cavalier for my taste. P.S. Tim, please don't force replies to your personal address. Leave "Reply-To" blank so the discussion will continue on the list where all can enjoy it. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dumanis at BUFFALO.EDU Tue Nov 27 18:14:47 2007 From: dumanis at BUFFALO.EDU (Edward M Dumanis) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:14:47 -0500 Subject: Irony in Grossman's VSE TECHET In-Reply-To: <002f01c8310e$460476e0$c0addf54@amministrazione> Message-ID: I think that you meant "gorsovet" and "gorodskoj sovet" in your message. Sincerely, Edward Dumanis On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, Peitlova Katarina wrote: ........./snip/......... > > I think that they are open with Pinegin BECAUSE of his > deputatskij znachok. If he wasn't DEPUTAT he were not aloud to enter in > inturistskij restoran. There's no irony in it. > > As for deputat v verxovnyj sovet?. I think he could be deputat rajsoveta. ........./snip/......... > There were sovets in every city: Leningradskij > rajonnyj sovet narodnyx deputatov. > > That's only how I interpretate the text. > > Best wishes > > > Katarina Peitlova PhDr. > Italy ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From atacama at GLOBAL.CO.ZA Tue Nov 27 06:57:34 2007 From: atacama at GLOBAL.CO.ZA (Vera Beljakova) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 08:57:34 +0200 Subject: Double fees / standard rates for written translation Message-ID: Some of us charge or are offered double fees (100% extra) if we get out the urgent documents overnight, or within 24 hours or within 12 hours, or meet very tight deadlines  - that, of course, is for contracts, technical papers or certificates that are urgently needed. Although I am far from a full time translators (it's a sideline), I do have clients who sometimes sit in my dining room while I knock out their urgent work in my home office. Now, how about payment methods ? If the client is a blue chip company, national, international - I send through an account; sometimes I ask to be paid on delivery; if the client is "off the street" - an unknown to me, small company or private person - I ask to be paid up front.  If the job is vast, I ask for 50% upfront as a deposit.  But one can only do these things if one has a 'name' or a good reputation for reliability/availability/standards in the market place, which I do in Johannesburg. So, it helps to gain a good repuation before upping the prices. Hope that helps. Vera Beljakova  ----- Original Message ------  From:Paul B. Gallagher  Sent:Monday, November 26, 2007 22:54  To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU;  Subject:Re: [SEELANGS] standard rates for written translation P.S. I would also add that when negotiating, there are three fundamental factors to consider: quality, speed, and price. The client can have his way on any two, but in that case, I need to have my way on the third. So for example, if he needs high quality at a low price, I need to have plenty of time. You should never accept a deal where the client has his way on all three. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From atacama at GLOBAL.CO.ZA Tue Nov 27 07:06:55 2007 From: atacama at GLOBAL.CO.ZA (Vera Beljakova) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 09:06:55 +0200 Subject: No time rates : standard rates for written translation Message-ID: I agree with Kim regarding product lists, technical drawings, graphs, tables and such, but when I need a technical documents on, e.g., mining, I prefer it if a Russian mining engineer (retired/academic) translates it for me and I edit it ...because I do edit at the speed of lighting in these circumstances, but this does not apply for, eg. non-technical, non-commercial prose. Regards, Vera Beljakova  ----- Original Message ------  From:Kim Braithwaite  Sent:Tuesday, November 27, 2007 00:49  To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU;  Subject:Re: [SEELANGS] No time rates : standard rates for written translation To me, "might need a bit of editing" sends up a red flag. Once in a while a client will ask me to "look over" a translation that someone else has done and "clean it up a little." I did that a couple of times, years ago, and learned that it doesn't pay. Quite apart from a missing or misplaced "the" or "a," and the like, if you care about accuracy and idiom it takes more time and effort to check the translation against the original document, and correct it, than the client wants to pay for (since he/she has already paid the translator, you see). Almost always these days I politely offer to translate the item from scratch at my usual rate, otherwise no thanks. I contend that it is reasonable to quote an hourly rate for certain kinds of jobs (editing might be one). The "incompetent translator," of course, is a problem no matter how the remuneration is established. For documents that are not connected prose such as articles and books - for example birth certificates, transcripts, product lists and the like - I generally eyeball the item, decide how long it will take me and how much I want for it, and quote a flat fee. Most clients accept. Mr Kim Braithwaite, Translator "Good is better than evil, because it's nicer" - Mammy Yokum (Al Capp) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vera Beljakova" To: Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 11:57 AM Subject: [SEELANGS] No time rates : standard rates for written translation I have always found it unfair to charge by time, because then the slow incompetent translator will earn more than the quick and experienced one. The best way is to gauge from the Internet and see how other translation agencies function.....frankly, now, a lot of translation work is being done in Russia or the CIS or East European countries where work is excellent and delivery times are fast. Many of the technical texts are now being translated in Russia by academics on a freelance basis. The end result might need a bit of editing, but at least the technical content is accurate. That's what I do now - when and where possible, I subcontract to Russian retired academics. Vera Beljakova ----- Original Message ------ From:Mike Trittipo Sent:Monday, November 26, 2007 21:30 To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU; Subject:Re: [SEELANGS] standard rates for written translation On Nov 26 2007, Inna Caron wrote: > When you have been contracted to do a commercial translation, is the > payment subject to agreement between the parties, or is there a more or > less standard rate per page of written translation? If so, . . .? Any agreement should specify the price and payment terms. So it's a matter of agreement. If you don't like an offered rate or price, you should reject it; and of course you may counter-offer a rate or price you prefer. E-mail discussion of "standard" rates can raise antitrust issues both in the U.S. and in the E.U. So it's best to steer clear of anything that smacks of a recommendation of X rate or Y rate. The general approach that Paul Gallagher has outlined is valid, however: each individual begins with his or her own numbers as to what he or she wants or needs, and each may take different amounts of time to produce a result in line with a client's requirements. Other decisions follow from those variables. Most often, I have charged per word of the target English. But sometimes I've charged a flat price, based on a reasonably accurate source word count and experience with the particular kind of text. Of course, any word count can be turned into a page count, if the definition of "page" is agreed upon. (Even where the "normostrana" is common, e.g., the Czech Republic, there are sometimes variations on what it is, ranging from 30 lines of 50 characters to 30 lines of 65 characters, counting spaces as characters. And of course there were questions even with typewriters about how to count partial "pages.") Michael Trittipo Minneapolis, Minnesota ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From atacama at GLOBAL.CO.ZA Tue Nov 27 18:24:14 2007 From: atacama at GLOBAL.CO.ZA (Vera Beljakova) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 20:24:14 +0200 Subject: standard rates for written translation Message-ID: I've come frequently across a dilemma... * do I make the copy sound concise that reads well in English, but is not totally as deeply detailed as the Russian text * or do I go for extreme accuracy and mirror the Russian text which would translate every single clause, every word practically. Clients whom I do not charge high fees (those who need family history/genealogy/letter translation/poetry paraphrased) get the more cumbersome but 100% accurate translation into English.  It might not be elegant and might not read like the original text, but I guarantee 100% factual accuracy where every nuance is reflected, and it is then up to the client to do what he wants with it.  Such work is not intended for publication but for research, therefore accuracy more vital than elegance. Articles for publication, of course, need elegant fluency - and elegance often wins out at the expense of accuracy. Vera Beljakova  ----- Original Message ------  From:Paul B. Gallagher  Sent:Tuesday, November 27, 2007 19:50  To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU;  Subject:Re: [SEELANGS] standard rates for written translation Timothy Sergay wrote: > Dear Josh and SEELANGers, > > When I was actively freelancing as a translator I occasionally compared > word counts of Russian originals and my English translations; if memory > serves I noticed about an 8-10% increase in word count going from Russian > to English, while character counts would be significantly closer to each > other. I attributed this to the underlying linguistic fact that Russian is > synthetic while English is analytic. I still think that's correct, but > maybe SEELANGers with stronger backgrounds in linguistics could weigh in > on this. In other words, verbosity in the target language (English) wasn't > the issue: it was the fact that the English noun system requires all kinds > of articles and prepositions to convey what Russian nouns convey through > the case system and often without prepositions, while the English verbal > system requires auxiliaries while the Russian verbal system can even > dispense with repeating the subject pronoun. I do understand why someone > translating, say, lists of terms from English to Russian would conclude > that English is more concise than Russian as a whole (Russian terms > compared to English often look like periphrases -- we can say "toenail > clippers" in English while Russian seems to require things like "nozhnitsy > dlia nogtei pal'tsev nog"). But I think the general fact is that in > semantically equivalent blocks of text, English will naturally have more > word boundaries than Russian. In my experience, different categories of text expand different amounts -- legalese tends to expand more, ad copy less. But the single factor that is most important is how much time I have to draft and revise the translation. The more I revise, the more concise and natural the English becomes. My slapdash first drafts hew too closely to the Russian (in several respects), and while they may technically be "grammatical" and "understandable" English, they don't read like originals. > As for charging translation clients, for all these reasons I think > charging by character count (and judging "verbosity" likewise by character > count) rather than word count makes sense and is a good use of the > advantages created by computerized word processing. > > As for never paying based on target-language counts at all so as to > encourage brevity, you may have arrived at this idea, Josh, through bitter > experience, but speaking as a translator, I find it hard to imagine anyone > really worth their salt in this business going out of their way to > deliberately pad a word count. Padding your word count is hardly the way > to acquire repeat clients, and in any case, it's hard enough just to get > things right semantically and recreate stylistic attributes as far as > possible. I've met colleagues who take great personal umbrage at payment > practices that imply that they must be vigilantly "incentivized" against > verbosity in their work. Following onto my remarks above, an agency is reasonable in wanting translators to review and revise their copy before sending it in. There are obviously various schools of thought as to where to draw the line between the translator's job and the editor's, but as you say if you want repeat business, you have to minimize the agency's editing costs. If that wounds your pride, you'll have to find a stable of ignorant clients who accept whatever hash you send, and I'm sure that's not the Sergay way. But I have encountered successful "professional" translators who are very good at churning out natural-sounding English that bears only a cursory relationship to the source text, and while their direct clients may think they're getting a good translation because it reads well, I know better and choose not to hire them. Some of them were outraged at my choice, but I'd rather have /them/ outraged than my end client, and I'm not willing to put in all the extra hours it takes to revise their copy. As you can see, I don't think anyone goes out of their way to pad their counts, but a few translators are far too lazy or cavalier for my taste. P.S. Tim, please don't force replies to your personal address. Leave "Reply-To" blank so the discussion will continue on the list where all can enjoy it. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mdenner at STETSON.EDU Tue Nov 27 20:57:53 2007 From: mdenner at STETSON.EDU (Michael Denner) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:57:53 -0500 Subject: A. D. P. Briggs Message-ID: Does anyone have contact information for Tony Briggs? A colleague is trying to reach him, but his information is out-of-date. Thanks! ~mad ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Dr. Michael A. Denner Editor, Tolstoy Studies Journal Director, University Honors Program Contact Information: Russian Studies Program Stetson University Campus Box 8361 DeLand, FL 32720-3756 386.822.7381 (department) 386.822.7265 (direct line) 386.822.7380 (fax) www.stetson.edu/~mdenner ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK Tue Nov 27 21:33:34 2007 From: Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK (Alexandra Smith) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 21:33:34 +0000 Subject: A. D. P. Briggs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dr Denner, Since Professor Anthony Briggs had retired from the University of Birmingham a while ago, he created his own webpage: http://adpbriggs.com/abp%20briggs3.swf; his address is: All best, Alexandra ============================== Alexandra Smith (PhD, University of London) Lecturer in Russian School of European Languages and Cultures The University of Edinburgh David Hume Tower George Square Edinburgh EX8 9JX UK tel. +44-(0)131-6511381 fax: +44- (0)131- 650-3604 e-mail: Alexandra.Smith at ed.ac.uk -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sarahhurst at ALASKA.NET Tue Nov 27 21:56:37 2007 From: sarahhurst at ALASKA.NET (Sarah Hurst) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:56:37 -0900 Subject: A. D. P. Briggs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I suggest http://www.adpbriggs.com. His email address seems to be on there. Sarah Hurst -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael Denner Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:58 AM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: [SEELANGS] A. D. P. Briggs Does anyone have contact information for Tony Briggs? A colleague is trying to reach him, but his information is out-of-date. Thanks! ~mad ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Dr. Michael A. Denner Editor, Tolstoy Studies Journal Director, University Honors Program Contact Information: Russian Studies Program Stetson University Campus Box 8361 DeLand, FL 32720-3756 386.822.7381 (department) 386.822.7265 (direct line) 386.822.7380 (fax) www.stetson.edu/~mdenner ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jwilson at SRAS.ORG Wed Nov 28 06:15:00 2007 From: jwilson at SRAS.ORG (Josh Wilson) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 09:15:00 +0300 Subject: standard rates for written translation In-Reply-To: <49219.169.226.153.46.1196183063.squirrel@webmail.albany.edu> Message-ID: Tim, et al. Actually, I've never had the bitter experience, but then I've always paid like that. The logic, when we came up with the policy, was three fold: 1) It's easier to budget (i.e., you know exactly what any translation will cost before you send it out); 2) It complements our editorial style (which basically says shorter is better, so long as all the information is there); 3) It's the same policy all the agencies in town were using (so we assumed it was generally market-standard anyway). I've never had a complaint. I'm not sure as to word boundaries, but I think your argument makes sense in the fact that English usually prefers short words. However, nearly every English translation (working mostly with business news articles) I've seen has been shorter than the Russian original in both terms of bulk and characters. It would seem to me, then, that paying according to character counts in the source language when the source language is usually longer would be preferable even for the translator. Is there some reason you think billing by the target language is preferable? Best, Josh Wilson Asst. Director The School of Russian and Asian Studies Editor-in-Chief Vestnik, The Journal of Russian and Asian Studies www.sras.org jwilson at sras.org -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Timothy Sergay Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 8:04 PM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] standard rates for written translation Dear Josh and SEELANGers, When I was actively freelancing as a translator I occasionally compared word counts of Russian originals and my English translations; if memory serves I noticed about an 8-10% increase in word count going from Russian to English, while character counts would be significantly closer to each other. I attributed this to the underlying linguistic fact that Russian is synthetic while English is analytic. I still think that's correct, but maybe SEELANGers with stronger backgrounds in linguistics could weigh in on this. In other words, verbosity in the target language (English) wasn't the issue: it was the fact that the English noun system requires all kinds of articles and prepositions to convey what Russian nouns convey through the case system and often without prepositions, while the English verbal system requires auxiliaries while the Russian verbal system can even dispense with repeating the subject pronoun. I do understand why someone translating, say, lists of terms from English to Russian would conclude that English is more concise than Russian as a whole (Russian terms compared to English often look like periphrases -- we can say "toenail clippers" in English while Russian seems to require things like "nozhnitsy dlia nogtei pal'tsev nog"). But I think the general fact is that in semantically equivalent blocks of text, English will naturally have more word boundaries than Russian. As for charging translation clients, for all these reasons I think charging by character count (and judging "verbosity" likewise by character count) rather than word count makes sense and is a good use of the advantages created by computerized word processing. As for never paying based on target-language counts at all so as to encourage brevity, you may have arrived at this idea, Josh, through bitter experience, but speaking as a translator, I find it hard to imagine anyone really worth their salt in this business going out of their way to deliberately pad a word count. Padding your word count is hardly the way to acquire repeat clients, and in any case, it's hard enough just to get things right semantically and recreate stylistic attributes as far as possible. I've met colleagues who take great personal umbrage at payment practices that imply that they must be vigilantly "incentivized" against verbosity in their work. Best wishes to all, Tim Sergay > As someone who often pays for translation, I can tell you that the > arrangement I usually use runs as follows: > > I pay for translations based on a character count in the source language. > I > would never pay based on the target language as that would not encourage > brevity, which I highly value as an editor working in the English > language. > Usually pay is figured at some sum per 1800 characters ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Wed Nov 28 06:29:31 2007 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 06:29:31 +0000 Subject: standard rates for written translation In-Reply-To: <200711280615.lAS6ExA1024294@alinga.com> Message-ID: Dear Josh (and all) What you say here is very interesting: > However, nearly every > English translation (working mostly with business news articles) I've seen > has been shorter than the Russian original in both terms of bulk and > characters. There is obviously a greater difference than I had realized between different styles of writing. I have NEVER seen a literary translation into English that has not been 10 to 25 % longer than the original, at least in terms of word count. R. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jwilson at SRAS.ORG Wed Nov 28 06:54:04 2007 From: jwilson at SRAS.ORG (Josh Wilson) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 09:54:04 +0300 Subject: standard rates for written translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Could be, I've not had experience in editing or closely analyzing literary translations. However, there is inconsistency in the terminology being used in this conversation. Some folks are speaking about characters, others about words. These are two very different things. -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Robert Chandler Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:30 AM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] standard rates for written translation Dear Josh (and all) What you say here is very interesting: > However, nearly every > English translation (working mostly with business news articles) I've seen > has been shorter than the Russian original in both terms of bulk and > characters. There is obviously a greater difference than I had realized between different styles of writing. I have NEVER seen a literary translation into English that has not been 10 to 25 % longer than the original, at least in terms of word count. R. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Wed Nov 28 07:13:43 2007 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 07:13:43 +0000 Subject: standard rates for written translation In-Reply-To: <200711280654.lAS6rvNV002867@alinga.com> Message-ID: I was speaking about words. R. > Could be, I've not had experience in editing or closely analyzing literary > translations. > > However, there is inconsistency in the terminology being used in this > conversation. Some folks are speaking about characters, others about words. > These are two very different things. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list > [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Robert Chandler > Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:30 AM > To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] standard rates for written translation > > Dear Josh (and all) > > What you say here is very interesting: >> However, nearly every >> English translation (working mostly with business news articles) I've seen >> has been shorter than the Russian original in both terms of bulk and >> characters. > > There is obviously a greater difference than I had realized between > different styles of writing. I have NEVER seen a literary translation into > English that has not been 10 to 25 % longer than the original, at least in > terms of word count. > > R. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jwilson at SRAS.ORG Wed Nov 28 07:28:01 2007 From: jwilson at SRAS.ORG (Josh Wilson) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 10:28:01 +0300 Subject: standard rates for written translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And I about characters. Different things. -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Robert Chandler Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:14 AM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] standard rates for written translation I was speaking about words. R. > Could be, I've not had experience in editing or closely analyzing literary > translations. > > However, there is inconsistency in the terminology being used in this > conversation. Some folks are speaking about characters, others about words. > These are two very different things. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list > [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Robert Chandler > Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:30 AM > To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] standard rates for written translation > > Dear Josh (and all) > > What you say here is very interesting: >> However, nearly every >> English translation (working mostly with business news articles) I've seen >> has been shorter than the Russian original in both terms of bulk and >> characters. > > There is obviously a greater difference than I had realized between > different styles of writing. I have NEVER seen a literary translation into > English that has not been 10 to 25 % longer than the original, at least in > terms of word count. > > R. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From renee at ALINGA.COM Wed Nov 28 07:32:55 2007 From: renee at ALINGA.COM (Renee Stillings) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 23:32:55 -0800 Subject: standard rates for written translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: To throw my two cents in on this, having reviewed quite a few translations of primarily business texts into Russian. Josh is correct in that oddly enough they can shrink - if the translator is thinking about getting the point across rather than translating words. Much of this may have to do with the original author of the text but often the Russian is fundamentally too wordy. I think back to my technical writing class in college where the two most important things I left with were the ability to keep things short and to the point and to never use long words where a simpler short word serves the same purpose. Oh, and drop all the crutch words. Russian, both written, and verbal, is often littered with ambiguous (non-committal ...) terms like "v principe," "vozmozhno," etc. In nearly all cases these can just be dropped for the sake of good writing ... or speaking. I can't tell you how many times a question along the lines of "How's the weather today?" is answered by "V principe, kholodno." Is it or isn't it??? It may be that if the Russian piece is well written to begin with that this shrinkage would not occur and perhaps there'd be more of a tendency toward the expansion when translating into English. Thus fewer problems of this nature in literature or professionally authored material - where we can assume a degree of writing ability. We are often translating articles by professionals in various areas of business - not writers, but lawyers, accountants, etc. So the raw material has all the leanings of college first drafts and the translation is actually very much an editing process, often even prompting later revisions in the Russian. Now, if such translations are being done commercially, often the client is looking for more parallels and not that sort of liberty in cutting out swathes of text just because one thinks it is frivolous. My first year out of college was spent in a technical translation company and at various stages gaps in text would be noted even by the peon such as myself just running comparisons of numbers and units on a language we were not fluent in. BTW, as a company, I am 99% positive the job was estimated on source word count because that is the only set definition that can be evaluated by both client and provider. -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Robert Chandler Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:14 PM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] standard rates for written translation I was speaking about words. R. > Could be, I've not had experience in editing or closely analyzing literary > translations. > > However, there is inconsistency in the terminology being used in this > conversation. Some folks are speaking about characters, others about words. > These are two very different things. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From peitlovakatarina at TISCALI.IT Wed Nov 28 08:27:56 2007 From: peitlovakatarina at TISCALI.IT (Peitlova Katarina) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 09:27:56 +0100 Subject: Irony in Grossman's VSE TECHET Message-ID: It could have been " gorodskoj" as far as "oblastnoj,rajonnyj " and "verxovnyj". Best wishes, Katarina ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward M Dumanis" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 7:14 PM Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Irony in Grossman's VSE TECHET >I think that you meant "gorsovet" and "gorodskoj sovet" in your message. > > Sincerely, > > Edward Dumanis > > On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, Peitlova Katarina wrote: > > ........./snip/......... > >> >> I think that they are open with Pinegin BECAUSE of his >> deputatskij znachok. If he wasn't DEPUTAT he were not aloud to enter in >> inturistskij restoran. There's no irony in it. >> >> As for deputat v verxovnyj sovet?. I think he could be deputat >> rajsoveta. > > ........./snip/......... > >> There were sovets in every city: Leningradskij rajonnyj sovet narodnyx >> deputatov. >> >> That's only how I interpretate the text. >> >> Best wishes >> >> >> Katarina Peitlova PhDr. >> Italy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Wed Nov 28 08:33:33 2007 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 03:33:33 -0500 Subject: standard rates for written translation In-Reply-To: <200711280615.lAS6ExA1024294@alinga.com> Message-ID: Combining responses to stay under the three-message-per-day limit: Josh Wilson wrote: > ... I'm not sure as to word boundaries, but I think your argument > makes sense in the fact that English usually prefers short words. > However, nearly every English translation (working mostly with > business news articles) I've seen has been shorter than the Russian > original in both terms of bulk and characters. It would seem to me, > then, that paying according to character counts in the source > language when the source language is usually longer would be > preferable even for the translator.... Paying on source need not automatically be cheaper or more expensive. For example, if I know that my English translations contain 15% more words than the Russian source, and I want to charge 15 cents per English (target) word, but the client wants to pay on source, I merely adjust my rate to 17.25 cents per Russian word. The same documents will cost the same amount, but the calculation will differ: 1000 Russian words at 17.25 cents is $172.50, but 1150 English words at 15 cents is $172.50. Vera Beljakova wrote: > I've come frequently across a dilemma... * do I make the copy sound > concise that reads well in English, but is not totally as deeply > detailed as the Russian text * or do I go for extreme accuracy and > mirror the Russian text which would translate every single clause, > every word practically. > > Clients whom I do not charge high fees (those who need family > history/genealogy/letter translation/poetry paraphrased) get the more > cumbersome but 100% accurate translation into English. It might not > be elegant and might not read like the original text, but I guarantee > 100% factual accuracy where every nuance is reflected, and it is > then up to the client to do what he wants with it. Such work is not > intended for publication but for research, therefore accuracy more > vital than elegance. > > Articles for publication, of course, need elegant fluency - and > elegance often wins out at the expense of accuracy. You raise an important point: the purpose of the translation. Part of understanding and serving the client well is understanding their purpose in ordering the translation, the intended use to which it will be put, the readership in the target language. Taken in a vacuum, translation should be "faithful" to the original document, but as we all know, the source document was written not simply in a different coding system (language), but in a different culture with a different set of assumptions, a different mindset, a different rhetorical style, etc. [insert plug for Gerhart's /Russian Context/ here] Put simply, a translation that is faithful to the explicitly expressed content will often fail to achieve the author's intended purpose in the target language. What will an American think if I speak of "making an elephant out of a fly," or perhaps more naturally, "making a fly into an elephant"? (assuming he's kind enough not to think I'm a total idiot...) Given that reading is an active skill in which the reader integrates what he sees with what he already knows (and often with what he wants to know -- his purpose in reading), what happens when we replace the intended reader with one whose background and purpose are entirely different? We must conclude that there will be many "good translations" of a particular document -- as many as there are translation clients. To address your question more directly, I agree that a genealogical translation must convey the essential genealogical information (who begat whom, etc.), but to the extent that the client wants to learn about how his/her ancestors lived, "who they were," it may also be important to convey that information as well, in a form the client can understand. Sometimes that means glossing unfamiliar terms such as "kvass" or supplying latitude/longitude for villages -- but that verges into research, and in that case I would ask the client whether that sort of information will be valuable enough to them to pay for my time. Things would seem to be simpler with a technical article for publication, but even a British author will find that American tech journals have quite a different style, and his article may have to be revised in order to work well for this readership. The most difficult task is converting the Russian rhetorical style, built around passive and impersonal constructions where the verbs are disguised as nouns, into the more direct, active, verby American style. A Russian bureaucrat might say something like "the coloration of the wall was effected by the application of paint of green color" where we would say "we painted the wall green." ;-) Renee Stillings wrote: > To throw my two cents in on this, having reviewed quite a few > translations of primarily business texts into Russian. Josh is > correct in that oddly enough they can shrink - if the translator is > thinking about getting the point across rather than translating > words. Much of this may have to do with the original author of the > text but often the Russian is fundamentally too wordy. ... because Russian style places a higher premium on puffery (making the author seem important and/or erudite) than American style, whereas we are more concerned with getting our point across (at least those of us who know how to write effective English are). > ... I can't tell you how many times a question along the lines of > "How's the weather today?" is answered by "V principe, kholodno." Is > it or isn't it??? Listen to some man-in-the-street interviews on TV and you'll hear the same stalling tactics here -- "I mean," "you know," etc. In the presidential debates, you hear "the fact of the matter is" (which generally introduces a lie, but that's another kettle of worms)... > ... We are often translating articles by professionals in various > areas of business - not writers, but lawyers, accountants, etc. So > the raw material has all the leanings of college first drafts and the > translation is actually very much an editing process, often even > prompting later revisions in the Russian. On those occasions where I have access to the author, I have often consulted back and forth to fully understand their intent, and it's not uncommon for the author to discover that he wasn't very clear about an important point. Translators routinely hear that only they would have noticed little flubs such as "Ru-239" for "Pu-239" in a nuclear piece. > Now, if such translations are being done commercially, often the > client is looking for more parallels and not that sort of liberty in > cutting out swathes of text just because one thinks it is frivolous. > My first year out of college was spent in a technical translation > company and at various stages gaps in text would be noted even by the > peon such as myself just running comparisons of numbers and units on > a language we were not fluent in. I've always thought that type of "content check" was a complete waste of time and money, but if you don't have a TL reviewer at the company, what can you do? hire a translation agency... -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From if_bosna at BIH.NET.BA Wed Nov 28 08:49:48 2007 From: if_bosna at BIH.NET.BA (Irena Saravanja) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 02:49:48 -0600 Subject: Radosavljev zbornik Message-ID: Dear Sirs, We in International Forum Bosnia have just published Gala Edition of Sonnets by Skender Kulenović to mark the tenth anniversary of our work and existence. We find that the book could be interested to the people all over the world. We attend to publish in the first half on 2008 two new books of interest for the people connected with Slavic languages, Radosavljev bosanski zbornik, edited by Prof. Dr. Anica Nazor and Srednjevjekovna bosanska književnost by Prof. Dr. Herta Kuna. With kind regards Irena Saravanja Associate in the International Forum Bosnia. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meloches at UMICH.EDU Wed Nov 28 14:49:07 2007 From: meloches at UMICH.EDU (Meloche, Sylvia) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 09:49:07 -0500 Subject: Stanislav Leonard Andreski In-Reply-To: A<474D27DD.1000907@pbg-translations.com> Message-ID: Stanislav Leonard Andreski (Andrzejewski), sociologist, born May 8 1919; died September 26 2007. Obituary by Kazimierz Sowa (Jagiellonian University) in The Guardian of Nov. 20,2007. http://www.guardian.co.uk/obituaries/story/0,,2213725,00.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From lzaharkov at WITTENBERG.EDU Wed Nov 28 14:51:12 2007 From: lzaharkov at WITTENBERG.EDU (Lila W. Zaharkov) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 09:51:12 -0500 Subject: Russian business culture In-Reply-To: <007001c8307e$8ceaf4c0$6a00a8c0@yourf78bf48ce2> Message-ID: At 05:49 PM 11/26/2007, you wrote: Hi! Thanhks for your help in responding. SHcmelev's The visit is an older But shocking one of his daughter's prostitution. Thanka again. Lila z. >Here they are: >The Wedding (DVD) >Tycoon (DVD) >Homo Zapiens by Victor Pelevin >The Shirt by Evgenii Grishkovetz >Novels by Yuliya Latynina > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Would it be possibel to share the list for all? We all need help in >creating new courses. Thanks much! > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From k.r.hauge at ILOS.UIO.NO Wed Nov 28 16:28:01 2007 From: k.r.hauge at ILOS.UIO.NO (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kjetil_R=E5_Hauge?=) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:28:01 +0100 Subject: Scando-Slavica volume 53 Message-ID: Volume 53 of Scando-Slavica will soon be ready for distribution. Table of contents, abstracts and full text of the "Information" section are available at our web page: Consider this also a call for papers for vol. 54. Final deadline is 1 March, 2008, and you will find a link to our "Instructions for contributors" on our web page. -- --- Kjetil Rå Hauge, U. of Oslo, PO Box 1003 Blindern, N-0315 Oslo, Norway Tel. +47/22856710, fax +47/22854140 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Wed Nov 28 22:27:40 2007 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:27:40 +0000 Subject: Summary of comments on extract from Grossman's VSE TECHET Message-ID: Dear all, I have received many interesting off-list responses, and I think I should attempt to summarize them. These few lines (which I had not at first thought of as esp. difficult!) contain so many problems that I wonder how I or anyone else ever dare to translate entire books! Завидя его, два раздевальщика выбежали из-за барьера, пришептывая: "Пожалте, пожалте", - и, похрапывая как жеребцы, в нетерпении тянулись к богатым пинегинским доспехам. Глаза у них были зоркие, хорошие глаза рысистых умных русских ребят из раздевалки интуристского ресторана, умевших точно запомнить, кто был да как одет, что сказал невзначай. Но уж к Пинегину с его депутатским значком они относились всей душой, открыто, почти как к непосредственному начальнику. 1. The first problem is рысистых. Several people have pointed out that this derives from the Russian for ‘trot’ rather than the Russian for ‘lynx’. One person pointed out that the normal adjective for the latter is рысий. I too had originally understood the word as relating to ‘trot’ and imagined that it might just refer to some kind of general quickness about these lads. When a student came up with ‘lynx-eyed’, that seemed to make so much better sense that I accepted it at once. BUT, though ’зоркий’ appears to confirm this, the image of жеребцы appears to confirm the other reading. I shall stay with ‘lynx-eyed’, if only because it is so much clearer an image. And it is perhaps worth remembering that this is an unfinished book that Gr. Was revising right up till his last days. 2. No uzh k Pineginu s ego deputatskim znachkom It was suggested that he must be a deputy of the Leningrad gorsovet or he would not have a car and secretaries, etc, there in Leningrad. Someone else contradicted this, saying, ‘под депутатским значком здесь понимается только значок депутата верховного совета союза или республики: таких же заметных номерных нагрудных знаков с флагом ссср у депутатов местных советов в советское время не было. Они появятся только в ельцинское время.’ This convinced me. 3. они относились всей душой, открыто, почти как к непосредственному начальнику. oni otnosilis’ vsei dushoi, otkryto, pochti kak k neposredstvennomu nachal’niku. One correspondent thought that they genuinely did ‘think the world’ of Pinegin, seeing him as one of the family. Someone else wrote ‘They PRETENDED TO BE OPEN, which is a very Russian thing to do. It is a quality that is deeply valued by this culture, and so scoundrels often manipulate with it. They were of course playing their little game of prostodushnie rebiata, open, simple, good hearted guys, who loved their boss kak podnogo.’ This seems right to me. At the end of all this I have made only a few slight changes to the translation. I may not yet have succeded in making it entirely clear that there is sarcasm and irony in the final sentence: On catching sight of him, two cloakroom attendants sprang out from behind a partition, whispering ‘Welcome! Welcome!’; neighing like colts, they impatiently stretched out towards Pinegin’s luxurious accoutrements. They were observant, clever, lynx-eyed Russian boys from an Intourist restaurant cloakroom – boys with a precise memory for who had been where, what he had been wearing and what he had happened to say. But they were, naturally, entirely open-hearted and spontaneous with Pinegin, treating him, with his Deputy's badge, almost as if he were their immediate superior. Best Wishes – and thanks to all! Robert ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From olga at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU Thu Nov 29 00:41:51 2007 From: olga at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU (Yokoyama, Olga) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:41:51 -0800 Subject: SEELANGS Digest - 27 Nov 2007 to 28 Nov 2007 - Special issue (#2007-273) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just a comment on the "crutch words"/"stalling tactics" mentioned in the on-going discussion of translation (cf. the quotes below). These words and phrases, which are often accused of "littering" the language, actually have very important discourse functions such as hedging, soliciting a response, expressing a certain stance, etc. etc. They are particularly important in person-to-person (hence, oral) communication, where communication heavily depends on interlocutor attitudes. These words and phrases exist in every language and are being widely studied by discourse-oriented linguists (just one example: the co-occurrence of the English "y'know" with pauses of 0.5 msec or longer in malfunctioning male-female conversation). Diachronically, what now looks like a legitimate lexical item often originated as a word or phrase that used to function just like any of the "litter" phrases now do; consider, e.g., the clitic "ved'", originally from the full-fledged verb "vedeti". Many of the "litter" words/phrases in current use are in the process of lexicalization, as is evident from their reduced phonological shapes: "y'know" sounds very different from a full two-word sequence "you know". That written texts are often consciously purged of these words/phrases in certain written traditions is itself a phenomenon peculiar to these written traditions. But when necessary, even in written English, say, hedging can be accomplished, but this is usually done by other means, such as by inserting the bookish "evidently", "allegedly" or even by explicit clauses like "although this is not entirely certain". Like esthetic judgements, what consitutes "good writing" (or "good speaking") is never an absolute or universal matter. [quoting Renee Stillings: Oh, and drop all the crutch words. Russian, both written, and verbal, is often littered with ambiguous (non-committal ...) terms like "v principe," "vozmozhno," etc. In nearly all cases these can just be dropped for the sake of good writing ... or speaking. I can't tell you how many times a question along the lines of "How's the weather today?" is answered by "V principe, kholodno." Is it or isn't it???] [quoting Paul Gallagher: Listen to some man-in-the-street interviews on TV and you'll hear the same stalling tactics here -- "I mean," "you know," etc. In the presidential debates, you hear "the fact of the matter is" (which generally introduces a lie, but that's another kettle of worms)...] Olga T. Yokoyama Professor Department of Applied Linguistics and TESL University of California, Los Angeles ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Thu Nov 29 03:09:51 2007 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:09:51 -0500 Subject: discourse words In-Reply-To: <513E941A9575754C9471B37BBE1C60EA04D3AE49@hermes.humnet.ucla.edu> Message-ID: Many thanks to Olga Yokoyama for defending the discourse words that traditionally earned a bad reputation being called crutches, sornjaki and many other things. A quick Google search of the subject gives you a number of citations. But I would like to mention a book edited by Denis Paillard and K. Kiseleva "Diskursivnye slova". (Moscow 1998) In my translation class I actually teach the meaning of some of those words, like v principe, for example, and how to translate them into English. Learning to use them in a foreign language is a lot harder. This is a true sign of mastery of the language. AI On Nov 28, 2007, at 7:41 PM, Yokoyama, Olga wrote: > [quoting Renee Stillings: Oh, and drop all the crutch words. Russian, > both written, and verbal, is often littered with ambiguous > (non-committal ...) terms like "v principe," "vozmozhno," etc. In > nearly > all cases these can just be dropped for the sake of good > writing ... or > speaking. I can't tell you how many times a question along the > lines of > "How's the weather today?" is answered by "V principe, kholodno." > Is it > or isn't it???] > Alina Israeli LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW Washington DC. 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From renee at ALINGA.COM Thu Nov 29 04:46:42 2007 From: renee at ALINGA.COM (Renee Stillings) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:46:42 -0800 Subject: discourse words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Perhaps it is just my personal impression, but the more I hear "v principe" used in Russia, the more I cringe. The reason - it signals to me the main thing as an employer in Russia I want to pull my hair out about - lack of commitment or taking of responsibility. Now it is normal for everyone to do that to some degree and other examples like "evidently" or "allegedly" are also very lazy words. These were examples we also discussed in technical writing as signaling lack of effort in providing any evidence or reference for the statement being made, and completely weakening the whole case. But that is probably individual laziness. What strikes me about the overuse of "v principe" is that is has some historical/cultural context in lack of individual responsibility and over-reliance on sudba, the state, or other intangibles. In that context, I am not exactly sure how to translate the full flavor of the word ... . It is just a word I want to go away when an employee is trying to tell me whether they will meet a deadline or not or if they are offering an opinion to a client. Arghhhh. Is this just my impression or are there any studies reflecting on the connection between these words and the historical/cultural background from which they may have gained such popularity? Definitely though, the ability to use these words is a major leap in mastery of the language. I remember noting when I started littering the language with these expressions, suddenly feeling confident (maybe with some added humor) in injecting "zhe" multiple times in one sentence! One funny thing of course is that you pick up these words from the people you keep company with. We had one guy in our office who had a few funny crutch words. He was such a strong personality though that even years after he left you could still detect the increased use of those particular words among those he worked with. As foreigners we are even more susceptible and if we are at that point in our language learning, we rapidly pick up the speech patterns - good and bad - of our close friends. Quoting AI: In my translation class I actually teach the meaning of some of those words, like v principe, for example, and how to translate them into English. Learning to use them in a foreign language is a lot harder. This is a true sign of mastery of the language. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Thu Nov 29 09:44:33 2007 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (Will Ryan) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:44:33 +0000 Subject: SEELANGS Digest - 27 Nov 2007 to 28 Nov 2007 - Special issue (#2007-273) In-Reply-To: <513E941A9575754C9471B37BBE1C60EA04D3AE49@hermes.humnet.ucla.edu> Message-ID: Olga Yokoyama is absolutely right. To ignore so-called crutch words (for British English I would add 'basicly' as very common) is to ignore the totality of discourse and register, which, in spoken language also includes facial expression and bodily gestures. I have been been an interpreter in several situations where the choice of words, pauses, hesitations, 'crutch' words, and facial expression or hand gestures have indicated that the speaker wished to be understood ironically or humorously, or wished to be convey that his real feelings were not those that would appear in the official written record of the meeting. I was astonished, many years ago, to hear in a lecture about the art of interpreting, by a professional UN interpreter, that the proper way to do 'unbiased' interpreting was to sit in a dark room wearing a headset, without sight of the speaker. I don't know how she dealt with the famous incident of Khrushchev's shoe. Will Ryan Yokoyama, Olga wrote: > Just a comment on the "crutch words"/"stalling tactics" mentioned in the > on-going discussion of translation (cf. the quotes below). These words > and phrases, which are often accused of "littering" the language, > actually have very important discourse functions such as hedging, > soliciting a response, expressing a certain stance, etc. etc. They are > particularly important in person-to-person (hence, oral) communication, > where communication heavily depends on interlocutor attitudes. These > words and phrases exist in every language and are being widely studied > by discourse-oriented linguists (just one example: the co-occurrence of > the English "y'know" with pauses of 0.5 msec or longer in malfunctioning > male-female conversation). > > Diachronically, what now looks like a legitimate lexical item often > originated as a word or phrase that used to function just like any of > the "litter" phrases now do; consider, e.g., the clitic "ved'", > originally from the full-fledged verb "vedeti". Many of the "litter" > words/phrases in current use are in the process of lexicalization, as is > evident from their reduced phonological shapes: "y'know" sounds very > different from a full two-word sequence "you know". > > That written texts are often consciously purged of these words/phrases > in certain written traditions is itself a phenomenon peculiar to these > written traditions. But when necessary, even in written English, say, > hedging can be accomplished, but this is usually done by other means, > such as by inserting the bookish "evidently", "allegedly" or even by > explicit clauses like "although this is not entirely certain". Like > esthetic judgements, what consitutes "good writing" (or "good speaking") > is never an absolute or universal matter. > > [quoting Renee Stillings: Oh, and drop all the crutch words. Russian, > both written, and verbal, is often littered with ambiguous > (non-committal ...) terms like "v principe," "vozmozhno," etc. In nearly > all cases these can just be dropped for the sake of good writing ... or > speaking. I can't tell you how many times a question along the lines of > "How's the weather today?" is answered by "V principe, kholodno." Is it > or isn't it???] > > [quoting Paul Gallagher: Listen to some man-in-the-street interviews on > TV and you'll hear the same stalling tactics here -- "I mean," "you > know," etc. In the presidential debates, you hear "the fact of the > matter is" (which generally introduces a lie, but that's another kettle > of worms)...] > > > Olga T. Yokoyama > Professor > Department of Applied Linguistics and TESL > University of California, Los Angeles > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From J.Dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Thu Nov 29 10:59:05 2007 From: J.Dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:59:05 +0100 Subject: discourse words Message-ID: In the days when I drove a lift in a department store, I was continually amazed by the contradictory accounts of the weather that I received from customers. Even in the West Riding of Yorkshire the weather doesn't change that fast, and a hedging phrase such as 'v principe' would have been a very useful adjunct to my necessarily obsequious replies. Perhaps because of that, whenever I speak a foreign language other than Russian, I find myself constantly trying to come up with literal translations of 'v principe'. But I am surprised to find 'allegedly' introduced into this company. At least in British English this is more than a discourse word, since it is customarily added to any public accusation to ensure that you (and the medium conveying your words) are exempt from any subsequent libel action that may be brought. I accept, though, that its use in technical language could be problematic, not least because it is in effect the expression of a personal opinion. John Dunn. -----Original Message----- From: Alina Israeli To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:09:51 -0500 Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] discourse words Many thanks to Olga Yokoyama for defending the discourse words that traditionally earned a bad reputation being called crutches, sornjaki and many other things. A quick Google search of the subject gives you a number of citations. But I would like to mention a book edited by Denis Paillard and K. Kiseleva "Diskursivnye slova". (Moscow 1998) In my translation class I actually teach the meaning of some of those words, like v principe, for example, and how to translate them into English. Learning to use them in a foreign language is a lot harder. This is a true sign of mastery of the language. AI On Nov 28, 2007, at 7:41 PM, Yokoyama, Olga wrote: > [quoting Renee Stillings: Oh, and drop all the crutch words. Russian, > both written, and verbal, is often littered with ambiguous > (non-committal ...) terms like "v principe," "vozmozhno," etc. In > nearly > all cases these can just be dropped for the sake of good > writing ... or > speaking. I can't tell you how many times a question along the > lines of > "How's the weather today?" is answered by "V principe, kholodno." > Is it > or isn't it???] > Alina Israeli LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW Washington DC. 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Dunn Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) University of Glasgow, Scotland Address: Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 40137 Bologna Italy Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From colkitto at ROGERS.COM Thu Nov 29 14:44:50 2007 From: colkitto at ROGERS.COM (colkitto) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:44:50 -0500 Subject: discourse words Message-ID: This may be an example of a change in progress discourse words ... like ... y'know ... kazetsja ... maybe "allegedly" is starting to undergo some erosion .... > In the days when I drove a lift in a department store, I was continually > amazed by the contradictory accounts of the weather that I received from > customers. Even in the West Riding of Yorkshire the weather doesn't > change that fast, and a hedging phrase such as 'v principe' would have > been a very useful adjunct to my necessarily obsequious replies. Perhaps > because of that, whenever I speak a foreign language other than Russian, I > find myself constantly trying to come up with literal translations of 'v > principe'. > > But I am surprised to find 'allegedly' introduced into this company. At > least in British English this is more than a discourse word, since it is > customarily added to any public accusation to ensure that you (and the > medium conveying your words) are exempt from any subsequent libel action > that may be brought. I accept, though, that its use in technical language > could be problematic, not least because it is in effect the expression of > a personal opinion. > > John Dunn. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alina Israeli > To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU > Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:09:51 -0500 > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] discourse words > > Many thanks to Olga Yokoyama for defending the discourse words that > traditionally earned a bad reputation being called crutches, sornjaki > and many other things. A quick Google search of the subject gives you > a number of citations. But I would like to mention a book edited by > Denis Paillard and K. Kiseleva "Diskursivnye slova". (Moscow 1998) > > In my translation class I actually teach the meaning of some of those > words, like v principe, for example, and how to translate them into > English. Learning to use them in a foreign language is a lot harder. > This is a true sign of mastery of the language. > > AI > > On Nov 28, 2007, at 7:41 PM, Yokoyama, Olga wrote: > >> [quoting Renee Stillings: Oh, and drop all the crutch words. Russian, >> both written, and verbal, is often littered with ambiguous >> (non-committal ...) terms like "v principe," "vozmozhno," etc. In >> nearly >> all cases these can just be dropped for the sake of good >> writing ... or >> speaking. I can't tell you how many times a question along the >> lines of >> "How's the weather today?" is answered by "V principe, kholodno." >> Is it >> or isn't it???] >> > > > Alina Israeli > LFS, American University > 4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW > Washington DC. 20016 > (202) 885-2387 > fax (202) 885-1076 > aisrael at american.edu > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > John Dunn > Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) > University of Glasgow, Scotland > > Address: > Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 > 40137 Bologna > Italy > Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 > e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk > johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pstock at BRANDEIS.EDU Thu Nov 29 14:57:50 2007 From: pstock at BRANDEIS.EDU (David Powelstock) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:57:50 -0500 Subject: SEELANGS Digest - 27 Nov 2007 to 28 Nov 2007 - Special issue (#2007-273) In-Reply-To: <474E8A01.6030405@sas.ac.uk> Message-ID: I tried, but could resist intervening in this discussion. I'm surprised that no one has pointed out the obvious: statements about language are either descriptive or normative. Olga Y. and Will Ryan (and others) are speaking primarily about descriptions of linguistic items, e.g., how they function in discourse. Such statements need to be evaluated on the basis of their descriptive adequacy. Normative statements, in this case questions of "good" or "bad" style, are another matter entirely. As Olga points out, "Like esthetic judgements, what consitutes "good writing" (or "good speaking") is never an absolute or universal matter." Nevertheless, one can make sound arguments in support of one's normative stylistic judgments as they apply to particular types of writing or speaking. As someone who teaches writing and public speaking in English regularly and writing in Russian occasionally, I would be remiss if I didn't teach the students that certain types of language that have clear functions in conversational discourse make their formal writing and speaking less persuasive and powerful. There are all sorts of normative stylistic judgments out there, not all of which are well founded in the logic of effective communication. On the other hand, there are fine works of normative stylistics that make compelling arguments for their recommendations. For English style, I highly recommend _Clear and Simple as the Truth_ by Francis-Noel Thomas and Mark Turner. There is also Orwell's famous essay, "Politics and the English Language." But my main point is that one needs to be aware of the difference between descriptive and normative approaches to language usage. To ignore the first is to misunderstand how language works; to ignore the second is to deprive the teaching of language of an important element of functionally effective communication, even if there is an inevitable element of subjectivity involved. Incidentally, one can also study normative stylistics descriptively, i.e., as a phenomenon in the history of culture. I recall playing on local softball team where I felt the need to curse more often in order to be considered a full-fledged member of the "discursive community"! Best wishes to all, David Powelstock Brandeis University -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Will Ryan Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 4:45 AM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] SEELANGS Digest - 27 Nov 2007 to 28 Nov 2007 - Special issue (#2007-273) Olga Yokoyama is absolutely right. To ignore so-called crutch words (for British English I would add 'basicly' as very common) is to ignore the totality of discourse and register, which, in spoken language also includes facial expression and bodily gestures. I have been been an interpreter in several situations where the choice of words, pauses, hesitations, 'crutch' words, and facial expression or hand gestures have indicated that the speaker wished to be understood ironically or humorously, or wished to be convey that his real feelings were not those that would appear in the official written record of the meeting. I was astonished, many years ago, to hear in a lecture about the art of interpreting, by a professional UN interpreter, that the proper way to do 'unbiased' interpreting was to sit in a dark room wearing a headset, without sight of the speaker. I don't know how she dealt with the famous incident of Khrushchev's shoe. Will Ryan Yokoyama, Olga wrote: > Just a comment on the "crutch words"/"stalling tactics" mentioned in > the on-going discussion of translation (cf. the quotes below). These > words and phrases, which are often accused of "littering" the > language, actually have very important discourse functions such as > hedging, soliciting a response, expressing a certain stance, etc. etc. > They are particularly important in person-to-person (hence, oral) > communication, where communication heavily depends on interlocutor > attitudes. These words and phrases exist in every language and are > being widely studied by discourse-oriented linguists (just one > example: the co-occurrence of the English "y'know" with pauses of 0.5 > msec or longer in malfunctioning male-female conversation). > > Diachronically, what now looks like a legitimate lexical item often > originated as a word or phrase that used to function just like any of > the "litter" phrases now do; consider, e.g., the clitic "ved'", > originally from the full-fledged verb "vedeti". Many of the "litter" > words/phrases in current use are in the process of lexicalization, as > is evident from their reduced phonological shapes: "y'know" sounds > very different from a full two-word sequence "you know". > > That written texts are often consciously purged of these words/phrases > in certain written traditions is itself a phenomenon peculiar to these > written traditions. But when necessary, even in written English, say, > hedging can be accomplished, but this is usually done by other means, > such as by inserting the bookish "evidently", "allegedly" or even by > explicit clauses like "although this is not entirely certain". Like > esthetic judgements, what consitutes "good writing" (or "good speaking") > is never an absolute or universal matter. > > [quoting Renee Stillings: Oh, and drop all the crutch words. Russian, > both written, and verbal, is often littered with ambiguous > (non-committal ...) terms like "v principe," "vozmozhno," etc. In > nearly all cases these can just be dropped for the sake of good > writing ... or speaking. I can't tell you how many times a question > along the lines of "How's the weather today?" is answered by "V > principe, kholodno." Is it or isn't it???] > > [quoting Paul Gallagher: Listen to some man-in-the-street interviews > on TV and you'll hear the same stalling tactics here -- "I mean," "you > know," etc. In the presidential debates, you hear "the fact of the > matter is" (which generally introduces a lie, but that's another > kettle of worms)...] > > > Olga T. Yokoyama > Professor > Department of Applied Linguistics and TESL University of California, > Los Angeles > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Thu Nov 29 15:12:05 2007 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:12:05 -0500 Subject: discourse words In-Reply-To: <033801c83242$d6f43ca0$0300a8c0@renee> Message-ID: On Nov 28, 2007, at 11:46 PM, Renee Stillings wrote: > Perhaps it is just my personal impression, but the more I hear "v > principe" > used in Russia, the more I cringe. Think of it in conjunction with English kinda (kind of), sorta (sort of). There is not much difference. 388,000,000 for "kind of" on Google 138,000,000 for "sort of" 2,900,000 for "в принципе" > The reason - it signals to me the main > thing as an employer in Russia I want to pull my hair out about - > lack of > commitment or taking of responsibility. It could signal a number of other things, a form of modesty, for example, common in Eastern societies, observance of the social hierarchy, to which Russians are more sensitive than Americans. Alina Israeli LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW Washington DC. 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Thu Nov 29 16:11:13 2007 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:11:13 -0500 Subject: discourse words In-Reply-To: <16AF71C4-E206-4A8D-8892-820711818461@american.edu> Message-ID: Alina Israeli wrote: > On Nov 28, 2007, at 11:46 PM, Renee Stillings wrote: > >> Perhaps it is just my personal impression, but the more I hear "v >> principe" used in Russia, the more I cringe. > > Think of it in conjunction with English kinda (kind of), sorta (sort > of). There is not much difference. > > 388,000,000 for "kind of" on Google > 138,000,000 for "sort of" > > 2,900,000 for "в принципе" > >> The reason - it signals to me the main thing as an employer in >> Russia I want to pull my hair out about - lack of commitment or >> taking of responsibility. > > It could signal a number of other things, a form of modesty, for > example, common in Eastern societies, observance of the social > hierarchy, to which Russians are more sensitive than Americans. Yeah, well, in principle, I'd kinda like to be president, if you don't mind, y'know... Just imagine VVP talking like that. ;-) -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vbelyanin at GMAIL.COM Thu Nov 29 16:15:17 2007 From: vbelyanin at GMAIL.COM (Valery Belyanin) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:15:17 +0300 Subject: reviews on Bunin Message-ID: Dear SEELANGers, Tatyana Borovinskaya, senior librarian of the Moscow Library "Russia Abroad" is looking for the intravitam American (and in English in general) reviews on the works of the Russian writer Ivan Bunin (1870-1953). Does anyone know where to find the bibliography or full texts? I will appreciate the answers and forward them to Tatyana, or you may write her directly tborovinskaya at gmail.com Yours truly, Валерий Белянин / Valery Belyanin, From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Thu Nov 29 16:21:11 2007 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:21:11 -0500 Subject: discourse words In-Reply-To: <474EE4A1.6060702@pbg-translations.com> Message-ID: On Nov 29, 2007, at 11:11 AM, Paul B. Gallagher wrote: > Just imagine VVP talking like that. > Just imagine: ВОПРОС: В моем вопросе речь шла о многополярности в самой России как таковой и о том, что касается отношения международного сообщества в отношении России, если она не соблюдает эти принципы: убийства журналистов, страхи, боязнь, отсутствие свободы, неправительственные организации. В.ПУТИН: Я два слова скажу. Там был другой какой-то вопрос, на этот я в принципе уже отвечал, когда говорил о составе российского парламента. Речь Путина в Мюнхене (2007) http://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%B5%D1%87%D1%8C_%D0%9F%D1%83% D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%B2_%D0%9C%D1%8E%D0%BD%D1%85%D0%B5%D0%BD% D0%B5_(2007) Alina Israeli LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW Washington DC. 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From J.Dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Thu Nov 29 16:28:03 2007 From: J.Dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:28:03 +0100 Subject: discourse words Message-ID: That is one of the best imitations of Tony Blair that I have seen. Though El'tsin, ponimaesh', did talk a bit like that, tak skazat'. The politician who really worries me is Aleksej Shokhin, who speaks only in perfectly formed sentences, complete with participial constructions and other subordinate clauses all going off in different, but tightly controlled directions. He must have had a seriously misspent youth. The point about 'allegedly' is, I think, that it is going in the reverse direction from the normal – from discourse word to substantive term. But this might be a specific feature of British English. John Dunn. -----Original Message----- From: "Paul B. Gallagher" To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:11:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] discourse words Yeah, well, in principle, I'd kinda like to be president, if you don't mind, y'know... Just imagine VVP talking like that. ;-) -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Dunn Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) University of Glasgow, Scotland Address: Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 40137 Bologna Italy Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From colkitto at ROGERS.COM Thu Nov 29 17:17:04 2007 From: colkitto at ROGERS.COM (colkitto@rogers.com) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:17:04 -0500 Subject: [Bulk] Re: [SEELANGS] discourse words Message-ID: ÏÔ×ÅÞÁÌ, Á ÎÅ ÏÔ×ÅÔÉÌ? Original Message: ----------------- From: Alina Israeli aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:21:11 -0500 To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: [Bulk] Re: [SEELANGS] discourse words On Nov 29, 2007, at 11:11 AM, Paul B. Gallagher wrote: > Just imagine VVP talking like that. > Just imagine: ÷ïðòïó: ÷ ÍÏÅÍ ×ÏÐÒÏÓÅ ÒÅÞØ ÛÌÁ Ï ÍÎÏÇÏÐÏÌÑÒÎÏÓÔÉ × ÓÁÍÏÊ òÏÓÓÉÉ ËÁË ÔÁËÏ×ÏÊ É Ï ÔÏÍ, ÞÔÏ ËÁÓÁÅÔÓÑ ÏÔÎÏÛÅÎÉÑ ÍÅÖÄÕÎÁÒÏÄÎÏÇÏ ÓÏÏÂÝÅÓÔ×Á × ÏÔÎÏÛÅÎÉÉ òÏÓÓÉÉ, ÅÓÌÉ ÏÎÁ ÎÅ ÓÏÂÌÀÄÁÅÔ ÜÔÉ ÐÒÉÎÃÉÐÙ: ÕÂÉÊÓÔ×Á ÖÕÒÎÁÌÉÓÔÏ×, ÓÔÒÁÈÉ, ÂÏÑÚÎØ, ÏÔÓÕÔÓÔ×ÉÅ Ó×ÏÂÏÄÙ, ÎÅÐÒÁ×ÉÔÅÌØÓÔ×ÅÎÎÙÅ ÏÒÇÁÎÉÚÁÃÉÉ. ÷.ðõôéî: ñ Ä×Á ÓÌÏ×Á ÓËÁÖÕ. ôÁÍ ÂÙÌ ÄÒÕÇÏÊ ËÁËÏÊ-ÔÏ ×ÏÐÒÏÓ, ÎÁ ÜÔÏÔ Ñ × ÐÒÉÎÃÉÐÅ ÕÖÅ ÏÔ×ÅÞÁÌ, ËÏÇÄÁ ÇÏ×ÏÒÉÌ Ï ÓÏÓÔÁ×Å ÒÏÓÓÉÊÓËÏÇÏ ÐÁÒÌÁÍÅÎÔÁ. òÅÞØ ðÕÔÉÎÁ × íÀÎÈÅÎÅ (2007) http://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%B5%D1%87%D1%8C_%D0%9F%D1%83% D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%B2_%D0%9C%D1%8E%D0%BD%D1%85%D0%B5%D0%BD% D0%B5_(2007) Alina Israeli LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW Washington DC. 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com – Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on Microsoft® Exchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pstock at BRANDEIS.EDU Thu Nov 29 17:39:05 2007 From: pstock at BRANDEIS.EDU (David Powelstock) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:39:05 -0500 Subject: [Bulk] Re: [SEELANGS] discourse words In-Reply-To: <380-22007114291717472@M2W041.mail2web.com> Message-ID: Definitely "otvechal," because he's emphasizing that the action was indeed performed, in parallel with "govoril." It seems to me that Russian aspect proves rather merciless in this instance, for this usage prevents Putin from being able to make the claim of finality that would be expressed by "otvetil." In English, "I've already answered that" (where have I heard that before?) preserves a valuable (to the speaker!) ambiguity. Speaking of that ambiguity, "v printsipe" adds a similar ambiguity back in. I think that proponents of purely descriptive discourse analysis would need to acknowledge that in this case, at least, functions more to the advantage of the politician than to that of the citizenry. Cheers, David P. -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of colkitto at rogers.com Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 12:17 PM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] [Bulk] Re: [SEELANGS] discourse words отвечал, а не ответил? Original Message: ----------------- From: Alina Israeli aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:21:11 -0500 To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: [Bulk] Re: [SEELANGS] discourse words On Nov 29, 2007, at 11:11 AM, Paul B. Gallagher wrote: > Just imagine VVP talking like that. > Just imagine: ВОПРОС: В моем вопросе речь шла о многополярности в самой России как таковой и о том, что касается отношения международного сообщества в отношении России, если она не соблюдает эти принципы: убийства журналистов, страхи, боязнь, отсутствие свободы, неправительственные организации. В.ПУТИН: Я два слова скажу. Там был другой какой-то вопрос, на этот я в принципе уже отвечал, когда говорил о составе российского парламента. Речь Путина в Мюнхене (2007) http://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%B5%D1%87%D1%8C_%D0%9F%D1%83% D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%B2_%D0%9C%D1%8E%D0%BD%D1%85%D0%B5%D0%BD% D0%B5_(2007) Alina Israeli LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW Washington DC. 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com v Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on Microsoft- Exchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulr at RUSSIANLIFE.NET Thu Nov 29 18:45:20 2007 From: paulr at RUSSIANLIFE.NET (Paul Richardson) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:45:20 -0500 Subject: Another translation question Message-ID: On the subject of translation... Certainly there are lots of factors like difficulty of text, type of text, quality of result, etc. But I wonder if those working with translators (and translators themselves) have any general rules of thumb for a daily translation volume sweet-spot? Koroche, what kind of daily volume is reasonable to expect? I know what my own daily volume is, but would be interested to see what others use for their benchmarks, based on types of text, etc. Assume a publishable quality in resulting text. I ask because this would help in determining reasonable expectations when we work with outside translators, which we are doing more now that we are expanding into offering a fiction quarterly. (Thus, if one can reasonably assume 2500 words output per day, an 8,000 word piece in a week would not be a rush job. Of course other things being equal.) I would also be interested in the differential between fiction and non-fiction. On or offlist replies welcomed. Thanks, Paul Richardson Russian Life magazine www.russianlife.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Fri Nov 30 00:39:01 2007 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:39:01 +0000 Subject: discourse words In-Reply-To: <1196353683.4049bb7cJ.Dunn@slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk> Message-ID: Yes, but while Blair's demotic was rehearsed in front of a glass, El'tsin's more probably came out of a glass. Will Ryan John Dunn wrote: > That is one of the best imitations of Tony Blair that I have seen. > > Though El'tsin, ponimaesh', did talk a bit like that, tak skazat'. The politician who really worries me is Aleksej Shokhin, who speaks only in perfectly formed sentences, complete with participial constructions and other subordinate clauses all going off in different, but tightly controlled directions. He must have had a seriously misspent youth. > > The point about 'allegedly' is, I think, that it is going in the reverse direction from the normal – from discourse word to substantive term. But this might be a specific feature of British English. > > John Dunn. > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Paul B. Gallagher" > To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU > Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:11:13 -0500 > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] discourse words > > > Yeah, well, in principle, I'd kinda like to be president, if you don't > mind, y'know... > > Just imagine VVP talking like that. > > ;-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ewb2 at CORNELL.EDU Fri Nov 30 01:13:37 2007 From: ewb2 at CORNELL.EDU (E Wayles Browne) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:13:37 -0500 Subject: Collection of Stalin jokes In-Reply-To: <474F5BA5.6000203@sas.ac.uk> Message-ID: SEELANGS readers may be interested in an extensive collection of jokes and famous quotations about Stalin, compiled by a folklorist in Estonia, Arvo Krikmann: http://www.folklore.ee/~kriku/HUUMOR/STALIN_FIN.pdf As he explains in his preface, he has gathered his material from sources in five languages: Russian, English, German, Finnish, and Estonian. Most SEELANGS denizens know the first two, or the first three of these; even those who do not know Estonian should however look at the Estonian versions given, since many of them contain punch lines in Russian (note: the Estonian letter o with tilde renders the Russian vowel bl). -- Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics Department of Linguistics Morrill Hall 220, Cornell University Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A. tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h) fax 607-255-2044 (write FOR W. BROWNE) e-mail ewb2 at cornell.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From chaput at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Nov 30 02:33:08 2007 From: chaput at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Patricia Chaput) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 21:33:08 -0500 Subject: [Bulk] Re: [SEELANGS] discourse words In-Reply-To: <03c701c832ae$bd0ccc50$0301a8c0@inspiron> Message-ID: отвечал, а не ответил? The use of the imperfective here appears to be a case of what has often been called "konstatacija fakta" and is perhaps best understood by assigning two meanings to uzhe: 1) so quickly; 2) at some previous time. I don't mean literal translations of uzhe and perhaps there are better ones, but just a way of trying to characterize the ways that uzhe and aspect can be related to be used in two different kinds of situations that convey two different meanings. Consider the following examples: 1) Two students, working together on their Russian homework. The first one says, "Let's start with ex. 10." A ja ego uzhe sdelal, says the second. That is, having done the exercise is part of relevant time that began at some point in the past and continues to the present, with results relevant to the present moment. So, to try to make it visual, if the present is marked by an X, then |----------|X 2) A substitute teacher in a Russian class, says "Let's do exercise 10." A my ego uzhe delali, answer the students, meaning that this exercise was done at a previous time and therefore does not need to be done now. The doing of the exercise was an event completed in a period of time not relevant to the present. Again to try to make it visual, |---------| X By choosing the imperfective, Putin is saying that answering that question is already over and done with. Time to move on. At least, that is my reading of it. Pat Chaput Harvard University >> ВОПРОС: В моем вопросе речь шла о многополярности в самой России как >> таковой и о том, что касается отношения международного сообщества в >> отношении России, если она не соблюдает эти принципы: убийства >> журналистов, страхи, боязнь, отсутствие свободы, неправительственные >> организации. >> >> В.ПУТИН: Я два слова скажу. Там был другой какой-то вопрос, на этот я >> в принципе уже отвечал, когда говорил о составе российского парламента. >> >> Речь Путина в Мюнхене (2007) >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From colkitto at ROGERS.COM Fri Nov 30 03:43:50 2007 From: colkitto at ROGERS.COM (colkitto) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:43:50 -0500 Subject: [Bulk] Re: [SEELANGS] discourse words Message-ID: My previous posting doesnt seem to have got through, sorry By asking that question ( отвечал, а не ответил?) I meant to suggest that Putin could have been asked that as a follow up, meaning "but you haven't really answered the question". His reaction might have been interesting. And been offered as an example of making aspect fun. > The use of the imperfective here appears to be a case of what has often > been called "konstatacija fakta" and is perhaps best understood by > assigning two meanings to uzhe: 1) so quickly; 2) at some previous time. > I don't mean literal translations of uzhe and perhaps there are better > ones, but just a way of trying to characterize the ways that uzhe and > aspect can be related to be used in two different kinds of situations that > convey two different meanings. Consider the following examples: > 1) Two students, working together on their Russian homework. The first > one says, "Let's start with ex. 10." A ja ego uzhe sdelal, says the > second. That is, having done the exercise is part of relevant time that > began at some point in the past and continues to the present, with results > relevant to the present moment. So, to try to make it visual, if the > present is marked by an X, then |----------|X > 2) A substitute teacher in a Russian class, says "Let's do exercise 10." > A my ego uzhe delali, answer the students, meaning that this exercise was > done at a previous time and therefore does not need to be done now. The > doing of the exercise was an event completed in a period of time not > relevant to the present. Again to try to make it visual, |---------| > X > By choosing the imperfective, Putin is saying that answering that > question is already over and done with. Time to move on. > At least, that is my reading of it. > Pat Chaput > Harvard University > >>> ВОПРОС: В моем вопросе речь шла о многополярности в самой России как >>> таковой и о том, что касается отношения международного сообщества в >>> отношении России, если она не соблюдает эти принципы: убийства >>> журналистов, страхи, боязнь, отсутствие свободы, неправительственные >>> организации. >>> >>> В.ПУТИН: Я два слова скажу. Там был другой какой-то вопрос, на этот я в >>> принципе уже отвечал, когда говорил о составе российского парламента. >>> >>> Речь Путина в Мюнхене (2007) >>> >>> >>> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From margarita at RENT-A-MIND.COM Fri Nov 30 03:53:42 2007 From: margarita at RENT-A-MIND.COM (Margarita Orlova) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:53:42 -0800 Subject: translation question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: a kak ty dumaesh' ? spasibo1 On Thursday, November 29, 2007, at 10:45 AM, Paul Richardson wrote: > On the subject of translation... > > Certainly there are lots of factors like difficulty of text, type of > text, quality of result, etc. But I wonder if those working with > translators (and translators themselves) have any general rules of > thumb for a daily translation volume sweet-spot? Koroche, what kind of > daily volume is reasonable to expect? > > I know what my own daily volume is, but would be interested to see > what others use for their benchmarks, based on types of text, etc. > Assume a publishable quality in resulting text. > > I ask because this would help in determining reasonable expectations > when we work with outside translators, which we are doing more now > that we are expanding into offering a fiction quarterly. (Thus, if one > can reasonably assume 2500 words output per day, an 8,000 word piece > in a week would not be a rush job. Of course other things being > equal.) > > I would also be interested in the differential between fiction and > non-fiction. > > On or offlist replies welcomed. > > Thanks, > > Paul Richardson > Russian Life magazine > www.russianlife.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jwilson at SRAS.ORG Fri Nov 30 08:00:00 2007 From: jwilson at SRAS.ORG (Josh Wilson) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:00:00 +0300 Subject: discourse words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We seem to really be raging on this issue. :) I had a very interesting conversation about this with my wife (she's Russian, I'm American) this morning over breakfast and I thought I would share the results as a way of possibly finding some resolution. I brought up the fact that one of my contributors liberally uses the construction "napomnim chto." I strongly dislike this because, in English, I find it worthless. The direct translation (we remind that) must be expanded (we remind the reader that) in order to makes sense in and of itself. However, an English-speaking reader will assume from this phrase that the author has already told the reader this fact elsewhere in the text. This is almost never the case when my contributor uses this construction. In context, what "napomnim chto" really means is "we realize that you, dear reader, are a widely read and intelligent professional and therefore we likely do not need to tell you this information, as you likely already know it, but here it is again anyway." Contextually this thought might be encapsulated by the English "obviously" or the phrase "it is well known that," depending on the specific context, but that opens another whole can of rhetorical worms. If a fact is obvious or well known, why must the reader be informed it is obvious and/or well known? Especially in a very short news article, the phrase in English is "filler" - it adds to the bulk of the piece without necessarily adding to the reader's understanding of the facts at hand. As I finished this explanation, my wife's reaction was "nu i chto?" She explained to me that in Russian these types of phrases, including "v printsipe" and all the other discourse words mentioned here are important to the Russian reader. These constructions establish the author's relationship with the reader (respectful) and the author's relationship with the material covered (whether it be an close relationship or peripheral, etc.) Our English-speaking readership could care less about these things. So long as the author doesn't insult us, good. So long as the author can discuss the material with a degree of authority, good. But do not tell us directly about your personal life, dear author, we are busy, objective people and are interested in facts and not particularly in whether or not you like us. Hence, I cut this phrase when editing translations because I feel the material should be translated not only from one language to another but from one audience to another. Since we are dealing with relatively dry issues of legislation, taxation, and economic indicators, these types of discourse words are not as important as if we were recording the personal statements of important politicians for posterity. Furthermore, our contributors realize this is our editorial policy, and agree with it. However, I have never, with rare exception, cut these words from the Russian originals. This is, in large part, because I've never met a Russian who feels they should be cut. Particularly after my conversation with my wife, I feel that, as a foreigner, it is not my position to dictate what constitutes professional Russian, but rather to learn what constitutes professional Russian and use it myself. As a native speaker, English-language editor, however, it is my duty to dictate and teach what constitutes professional English. Incidentally, for translations for the Russian language learning material I publish in another publication, The SRAS Newsletter, I use a different policy. Translations should follow the original text as closely as possible, providing a translation that preserves the diction, grammatical structure, and even, if possible, word order. This is because the audience is different. They are students who want to understand the original text as closely as possible - and not just learn the facts the original text has to impart. In short, to paraphrase the old saying: "to every translation style there is a season, and a time to every translation purpose." P.S. I don't think that "allegedly" and "evidently" are necessarily bad or lazy words. However, if the author does not tell us who alleges (particularly if it is not obvious that a plaintiff or the state has pressed formal charges alleging something in court), what the author is probably really saying is "lots of people already believe this, no really they do, so you should too, even though I'm not going to give you more information." In this case, yes, it is lazy and academically reprehensible. In the case of "evidently," if the author does not actually provide the evidence, then the word is also used to avoid the actual hard work of researching evidence. Or, as sometimes happens, the words have simply been used ironically to refer to those people who misuse words such as these to allege something they have no evidence to prove... Best, Josh Wilson Asst. Director The School of Russian and Asian Studies Editor-in-Chief Vestnik, The Journal of Russian and Asian Studies www.sras.org jwilson at sras.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jwilson at SRAS.ORG Fri Nov 30 09:43:58 2007 From: jwilson at SRAS.ORG (Josh Wilson) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:43:58 +0300 Subject: Another translation question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In my experience, your estimate on volume expectation is reasonable. However, this is something that needs to be worked out with each individual translator. Speed is something that will differ for each and will be based on how "in-demand" the translator is, the translator's personal life, etc. I try to take all these into account when formulating my expectations of what to expect from any translator I work with. Obviously, if we look at the Gallagher trinity (which is quite correct, in my view), if we consider speed an issue we should expect either quality to go down or price to go up. -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul Richardson Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 9:45 PM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: [SEELANGS] Another translation question On the subject of translation... Certainly there are lots of factors like difficulty of text, type of text, quality of result, etc. But I wonder if those working with translators (and translators themselves) have any general rules of thumb for a daily translation volume sweet-spot? Koroche, what kind of daily volume is reasonable to expect? I know what my own daily volume is, but would be interested to see what others use for their benchmarks, based on types of text, etc. Assume a publishable quality in resulting text. I ask because this would help in determining reasonable expectations when we work with outside translators, which we are doing more now that we are expanding into offering a fiction quarterly. (Thus, if one can reasonably assume 2500 words output per day, an 8,000 word piece in a week would not be a rush job. Of course other things being equal.) I would also be interested in the differential between fiction and non-fiction. On or offlist replies welcomed. Thanks, Paul Richardson Russian Life magazine www.russianlife.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From igor_horvatus at YAHOO.COM Fri Nov 30 11:31:56 2007 From: igor_horvatus at YAHOO.COM (horvat igor) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 03:31:56 -0800 Subject: Proofreading Message-ID: Hello, a friend of mine is looking for a native speaker of English with background in Slavic studies interested in proofreading English texts written by a non-native speaker. Please reply to my address. Thanks, Igor ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Fri Nov 30 12:13:38 2007 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 07:13:38 -0500 Subject: discourse words Message-ID: Hurray for Josh's wife! Wives have solved many problems of very smart men. All the so-called discourse words may or may not be lazy, depending not only on the difference between discourse analysis and normative approach but also on the genre of the translation in question. What cutting is desirable in, say, a legal document, is inadmissible in any poetic text -- including the same legal document parodied. Imagine someone "improving" Dickens' parody of Legalese in Russian, or Fetiukovich's or Ippolit Kirillovich's speeches in English (well, Constance Garnett actually dared to, and the re4sults were catastrophic, for several generations of Dostoevsky's readers in English!). As for the paying client, it is important that they know what text they want translated. For example, legal documents may require typical legalese language, OR the translation of all the discourse words, the latter in case the document in question is a deposited witness/ testimony, or a quote overheard from a criminal, say a murderer. Was s/he raving mad or cold-blooded? Did s/he perhaps try to establish a rapport with the victim and, in the end, in case s/he failed, did s/he kill in self-defense? Was there bitter or last-resort irony in the words quoted and to be translated? There are legal documents and legal documents. And this explains why it pays to study both poetics and discourse analysis not only for philologists and linguists respectively but for everyone: otherwise, any text can be understood "s tochnost'iu do naoborot". So the problem here is not only the translation client's possible insensitivity to what "lazy" words may mean in different contexts but his or her disdain for the linguists or philologists among us, translators. Sometimes we just turn out to be too serious, conscientious, and competent for them to appreciate the effort -- especially when we invest our literary or linguistic professional competence in what we do as translators. When our employer or client has less of that than ourselves, s/he simply cannot appreciate all our efforts and, therefore, is unable to imagine what we should be paid for--what is there to reward in a symphony offered as a tribute to a tone-deaf Mecenate? ----- Original Message ----- From: Josh Wilson Date: Friday, November 30, 2007 3:00 am Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] discourse words > We seem to really be raging on this issue. :) > > I had a very interesting conversation about this with my wife (she's > Russian, I'm American) this morning over breakfast and I thought I > wouldshare the results as a way of possibly finding some > resolution. > > I brought up the fact that one of my contributors liberally uses the > construction "napomnim chto." I strongly dislike this because, in > English, I > find it worthless. The direct translation (we remind that) must be > expanded(we remind the reader that) in order to makes sense in and > of itself. > However, an English-speaking reader will assume from this phrase > that the > author has already told the reader this fact elsewhere in the text. > This is > almost never the case when my contributor uses this construction. In > context, what "napomnim chto" really means is "we realize that you, > dearreader, are a widely read and intelligent professional and > therefore we > likely do not need to tell you this information, as you likely > already know > it, but here it is again anyway." Contextually this thought might be > encapsulated by the English "obviously" or the phrase "it is well > knownthat," depending on the specific context, but that opens > another whole can > of rhetorical worms. If a fact is obvious or well known, why must > the reader > be informed it is obvious and/or well known? Especially in a very > short news > article, the phrase in English is "filler" - it adds to the bulk of > thepiece without necessarily adding to the reader's understanding > of the facts > at hand. > > As I finished this explanation, my wife's reaction was "nu i chto?" > Sheexplained to me that in Russian these types of phrases, > including "v > printsipe" and all the other discourse words mentioned here are > important to > the Russian reader. These constructions establish the author's > relationshipwith the reader (respectful) and the author's > relationship with the material > covered (whether it be an close relationship or peripheral, etc.) > > Our English-speaking readership could care less about these things. > So long > as the author doesn't insult us, good. So long as the author can > discuss the > material with a degree of authority, good. But do not tell us > directly about > your personal life, dear author, we are busy, objective people and are > interested in facts and not particularly in whether or not you like > us.Hence, I cut this phrase when editing translations because I > feel the > material should be translated not only from one language to another > but from > one audience to another. Since we are dealing with relatively dry > issues of > legislation, taxation, and economic indicators, these types of > discoursewords are not as important as if we were recording the > personal statements > of important politicians for posterity. Furthermore, our contributors > realize this is our editorial policy, and agree with it. > > However, I have never, with rare exception, cut these words from > the Russian > originals. This is, in large part, because I've never met a Russian > whofeels they should be cut. Particularly after my conversation > with my wife, I > feel that, as a foreigner, it is not my position to dictate what > constitutesprofessional Russian, but rather to learn what > constitutes professional > Russian and use it myself. As a native speaker, English-language > editor,however, it is my duty to dictate and teach what constitutes > professionalEnglish. > > Incidentally, for translations for the Russian language learning > material I > publish in another publication, The SRAS Newsletter, I use a different > policy. Translations should follow the original text as closely as > possible,providing a translation that preserves the diction, > grammatical structure, > and even, if possible, word order. This is because the audience is > different. They are students who want to understand the original > text as > closely as possible - and not just learn the facts the original > text has to > impart. > > In short, to paraphrase the old saying: "to every translation style > there is > a season, and a time to every translation purpose." > > > P.S. > > I don't think that "allegedly" and "evidently" are necessarily bad > or lazy > words. However, if the author does not tell us who alleges > (particularly if > it is not obvious that a plaintiff or the state has pressed formal > chargesalleging something in court), what the author is probably > really saying is > "lots of people already believe this, no really they do, so you > should too, > even though I'm not going to give you more information." In this > case, yes, > it is lazy and academically reprehensible. > > In the case of "evidently," if the author does not actually provide > theevidence, then the word is also used to avoid the actual hard > work of > researching evidence. > > Or, as sometimes happens, the words have simply been used > ironically to > refer to those people who misuse words such as these to allege > somethingthey have no evidence to prove... > > > Best, > > Josh Wilson > Asst. Director > The School of Russian and Asian Studies > Editor-in-Chief > Vestnik, The Journal of Russian and Asian Studies > www.sras.org > jwilson at sras.org > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS > Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Fri Nov 30 15:45:06 2007 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:45:06 -0500 Subject: discourse words In-Reply-To: <200711300759.lAU7xqvw009924@alinga.com> Message-ID: On Nov 30, 2007, at 3:00 AM, Josh Wilson wrote: > We seem to really be raging on this issue. :) > > I had a very interesting conversation about this with my wife (she's > Russian, I'm American) this morning over breakfast and I thought I > would > share the results as a way of possibly finding some resolution. > > I brought up the fact that one of my contributors liberally uses the > construction "napomnim chto." I strongly dislike this because, in > English, I > find it worthless. You just have to know what it corresponds in English to. This particular phrase serving as an aside, as a reminder, corresponds to note that, I should note that, readers should not that and the like. There may be other versions of it of course: The center, with a grant from the federal Bureau of Justice Assistance, reviewed 517 closed Secret Service cases from 2000 to 2006. I should note that the data used for the report do not represent all of the identity theft cases that were investigated and prosecuted during this time by the Secret Service and other law enforcement agencies. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/31/ AR2007103102821.html Readers should note that the GPB is a simplified version of trend identification systems developed by Denver Research Group, Inc. (DRGI). http://blog.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/drg/ DenverResearchGroup.html Maybe some day there will be a dictionary of these kinds of phrases, not just of idioms. They usually have a purpose. Although it is true, that there are some words both in Russian and in English that are lost in translation. Alina Israeli LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW Washington DC. 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From J.Dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Fri Nov 30 16:27:10 2007 From: J.Dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 17:27:10 +0100 Subject: [Bulk] Re: [SEELANGS] discourse words Message-ID: With all due respect [there's a good discourse phrase], I don't think 'v principe' does bring in an ambiguity here. If, for some unimaginable sins in a past life, I were to find myself translating Putin's words into English, I would render that phrase as 'in essence' or 'to all intents and purposes'. What I interpret Putin as saying is that he dealt with this issue in response to an earlier question, and while his answer then might not have been exhaustive, it was perfectly adequate for present purposes [and in any case he has a lunch appointment with Angela Merkel and the journalists are desperate to get to the nearest Bierkeller]. Yes, it is a hedge or qualification, but in this instance (unlike perhaps in the answer about the weather which started off this discussion) it seems to have a clear (and translatable) meaning. John Dunn. -----Original Message----- From: David Powelstock To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:39:05 -0500 Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] [Bulk] Re: [SEELANGS] discourse words [. . .] "v printsipe" adds a similar ambiguity back in. I think that proponents of purely descriptive discourse analysis would need to acknowledge that in this case, at least, functions more to the advantage of the politician than to that of the citizenry. Cheers, David P. ----------------- From: Alina Israeli aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:21:11 -0500 To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: [Bulk] Re: [SEELANGS] discourse words Just imagine: ВОПРОС: В моем вопросе речь шла о многополярности в самой России как таковой и о том, что касается отношения международного сообщества в отношении России, если она не соблюдает эти принципы: убийства журналистов, страхи, боязнь, отсутствие свободы, неправительственные организации. В.ПУТИН: Я два слова скажу. Там был другой какой-то вопрос, на этот я в принципе уже отвечал, когда говорил о составе российского парламента. Речь Путина в Мюнхене (2007) http://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%B5%D1%87%D1%8C_%D0%9F%D1%83% D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%B2_%D0%9C%D1%8E%D0%BD%D1%85%D0%B5%D0%BD% D0%B5_(2007) Alina Israeli LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW Washington DC. 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu John Dunn Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) University of Glasgow, Scotland Address: Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 40137 Bologna Italy Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jackhutchens at YAHOO.COM Fri Nov 30 16:35:15 2007 From: jackhutchens at YAHOO.COM (Jack Hutchens) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:35:15 -0800 Subject: cfp update: european popular culture Message-ID: Dear colleagues, The deadline for abstracts for proposals to the European Popular Culture area of the Southwest/Texas Popular Culture Association's 2008 conference has been extended to December 15th. The full cfp is below. I would also like to inform graduate students of the Euro Pop Award, which is awarded to the best presented paper written by a graduate student on a topic of European Popular culure. It includes a $200 award. See http://www.h-net.org/~swpca/Awards/awards_list.htm#euro_award for full award details. European Popular Culture Area Call for Papers for the 2008 Southwest/Texas Popular Culture Association Conference Conference Dates: February 13-16, 2008 Deadline for proposals: December 15, 2007 Registration Deadline: December 31, 2007 (all participants and chairs must register by this date!) Cultural studies panels now forming on topics related to English and non-English representations of popular culture from Europe. Possible areas of interest include film, music, literature, photography, folk culture, art, comic books, parades, etc. Scholars, teachers, independent scholars, and other interested professionals are encouraged to submit papers and/or panels. Graduate students are also particularly welcome with award opportunities for best graduate papers. Conference Hotel Information: Hyatt Regency Albuquerque 330 Tijeras Albuquerque, NM 87102 Phone: 1.505.842.1234 Fax: 1.505.766.6710 http://albuquerque.hyatt.com As hotel rates are low and include an even lower graduate student rate, please book your rooms early. See our SWPCA/ACA website for Participant Fees. Send 100-200 word abstracts for papers and proposals for panels by 15 December 2007: Jack Hutchens Slavic Languages and Literatures 707 S. Matthews Avenue 3080 FLB Urbana, IL 61801 or by email jackhutchens at yahoo.com Jack J. Hutchens Polonist/Bohemist Slavic Languages and Literatures University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign 707 S. Matthews Ave. 3080 FLB Urbana, IL 61801 "While there is a lower class, I am in it. While there is a criminal element, I am of it. While there is a soul in prison, I am not free." --Eugene V. Debs ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mm504 at CAM.AC.UK Fri Nov 30 18:06:43 2007 From: mm504 at CAM.AC.UK (Muireann Maguire) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:06:43 -0600 Subject: Bulat Okudzhava's black staircases Message-ID: In her book 'Common Places' Svetlana Boym quotes a song (in English translation) by Bulat Okudzhava, which is apparently dedicated to the 'black staircases' of Soviet communal apartment buildings. Unfortunately, the quote isn't referenced. After trawling through many Okudzhava poems, I still haven't managed to trace the reference to either 'black staircases' or 'black cats' which 'never cry nor sing' (in the same song). If anyone can tell me which Okudzhava song is being cited, I'd be very grateful. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Fri Nov 30 18:07:47 2007 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 13:07:47 -0500 Subject: Heads up: Amanpour on Putin Message-ID: Tonight on CNN (10 Eastern/9 Central, check local listings elsewhere): Series "CNN Special Investigations Unit" Christiane Amanpour: "Czar Putin" -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From scf1000 at CAM.AC.UK Fri Nov 30 18:25:42 2007 From: scf1000 at CAM.AC.UK (Simon Franklin) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:25:42 +0000 Subject: Bulat Okudzhava's black staircases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Pesen'ka pro chernogo kota: "So dvora pod"ezd izvestnyi pod nazvan'em 'chernyi khod'. V tom pod"ezde, kak v pomest'e, prozhivaet chernyi kot. On v usy usmeshku priachet, temnota emu kak shchit. Vse koty poiut i plachut - etot Chernyi kot molchit. etc. The "Chernyi khod" is, of course, more prosaically rendered as "back" rather than "black" Simon Franklin --On 30 November 2007 12:06:43 -0600 Muireann Maguire wrote: > In her book 'Common Places' Svetlana Boym quotes a song (in English > translation) by Bulat Okudzhava, which is apparently dedicated to the > 'black staircases' of Soviet communal apartment buildings. Unfortunately, > the quote isn't referenced. After trawling through many Okudzhava poems, > I still haven't managed to trace the reference to either 'black > staircases' or 'black cats' which 'never cry nor sing' (in the same > song). If anyone can tell me which Okudzhava song is being cited, I'd be > very grateful. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________ Professor Simon Franklin, University of Cambridge, Department of Slavonic Studies, Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA _________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Alfia.Rakova at DARTMOUTH.EDU Fri Nov 30 18:18:13 2007 From: Alfia.Rakova at DARTMOUTH.EDU (Alfia Rakova) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 13:18:13 -0500 Subject: [Bulk] Re: [SEELANGS] discourse words Message-ID: Then you probably meant otvechal, NO ne otvetil (not A ne otvetil). In this example it has to be Imperfective, meaning either Ja uzhe podrobno otvechal na etot vopros (focus is "Ja ne tol'ko uzhe otvetil, but my answer covered this topic in depth, in detail, in essence, etc.), or Ja uzhe mnogo raz otvechal na etot vopros (repeated action). We need to teach our students to say correctly: Ja uzhe rasskazyval tebe ob etom; Tolstoy uzhe pisal ob etom; My uzhe obsuzhdali eto, etc. After these statements there is always a choice: do I want to conitnue communication, to end it, or to move on? If I want to continue it, then: Ja uzhe otvechal na etot vopros, no mogu povtorit'. If to end it: Ja uzhe otvechal na etot vopros i bol'she ne budu otvechat'. If to move on, then: Ja uzhe otvechal na etot vopros, davajte perejdiom k drugomu voprosu. In this case it means otvetil plus something else. Sometimes it can be a polite form of expressing irritation, impatience, being in a hurry, etc: Ja uzhe otvechal na etot vopros (don't you remember? didn't you pay attention? etc.). Wonderful topic! Thank you. A.Rakova, Senior Lecturer Department of Russian Dartmouth College Hanover, NH 03755 Alfia.Rakova at Dartmouth.edu --- You wrote: My previous posting doesnt seem to have got through, sorry By asking that question ( ÏÔ$F9Å$FBÁÌ, Á ÎÅ ÏÔ$F9ÅÔÉÌ?) I meant to suggest that Putin could have been asked that as a follow up, meaning "but you haven't really answered the question". His reaction might have been interesting. And been offered as an example of making aspect fun. --- Start of quoted text: The use of the imperfective here appears to be a case of what has often been called "konstatacija fakta" and is perhaps best understood by assigning two meanings to uzhe: 1) so quickly; 2) at some previous time. I don't mean literal translations of uzhe and perhaps there are better ones, but just a way of trying to characterize the ways that uzhe and aspect can be related to be used in two different kinds of situations that convey two different meanings. Consider the following examples: 1) Two students, working together on their Russian homework. The first one says, "Let's start with ex. 10." A ja ego uzhe sdelal, says the second. That is, having done the exercise is part of relevant time that began at some point in the past and continues to the present, with results relevant to the present moment. So, to try to make it visual, if the present is marked by an X, then |----------|X 2) A substitute teacher in a Russian class, says "Let's do exercise 10." A my ego uzhe delali, answer the students, meaning that this exercise was done at a previous time and therefore does not need to be done now. The doing of the exercise was an event completed in a period of time not relevant to the present. Again to try to make it visual, |---------| X By choosing the imperfective, Putin is saying that answering that question is already over and done with. Time to move on. At least, that is my reading of it. Pat Chaput Harvard University --- Start of quoted text (3): ÷ï$FFòïó: ÷ ÍÏÅÍ $F9Ï$F5ÒÏÓÅ ÒÅ$FBØ ÛÌÁ Ï ÍÎÏÇÏ$F5ÏÌÑÒÎÏÓÔÉ $F9 ÓÁÍÏÊ òÏÓÓÉÉ ËÁË ÔÁËÏ$F9ÏÊ É Ï ÔÏÍ, $FBÔÏ ËÁÓÁÅÔÓÑ ÏÔÎÏÛÅÎÉÑ ÍÅOÄÕÎÁÒÏÄÎÏÇÏ ÓÏÏÂ$FAÅÓÔ$F9Á $F9 ÏÔÎÏÛÅÎÉÉ òÏÓÓÉÉ, ÅÓÌÉ ÏÎÁ ÎÅ ÓÏÂÌÀÄÁÅÔ ÜÔÉ $F5ÒÉÎÃÉ$F5Ù: ÕÂÉÊÓÔ$F9Á OÕÒÎÁÌÉÓÔÏ$F9, ÓÔÒÁÈÉ, ÂÏÑÚÎØ, ÏÔÓÕÔÓÔ$F9ÉÅ Ó$F9ÏÂÏÄÙ, ÎÅ$F5ÒÁ$F9ÉÔÅÌØÓÔ$F9ÅÎÎÙÅ ÏÒÇÁÎÉÚÁÃÉÉ. ÷.$FFõôéî: ñ Ä$F9Á ÓÌÏ$F9Á ÓËÁOÕ. ôÁÍ ÂÙÌ ÄÒÕÇÏÊ ËÁËÏÊ-ÔÏ $F9Ï$F5ÒÏÓ, ÎÁ ÜÔÏÔ Ñ $F9 $F5ÒÉÎÃÉ$F5Å ÕOÅ ÏÔ$F9Å$FBÁÌ, ËÏÇÄÁ ÇÏ$F9ÏÒÉÌ Ï ÓÏÓÔÁ$F9Å ÒÏÓÓÉÊÓËÏÇÏ $F5ÁÒÌÁÍÅÎÔÁ. òÅ$FBØ $FFÕÔÉÎÁ $F9 íÀÎÈÅÎÅ (2007) --- end of quoted text (3) --- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- end of quoted text --- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- end of quote --- ************************************* Alfia Rakova, Senior Lecturer Department of Russian Dartmouth College 15 College Street Hanover, NH 03755 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From norafavorov at BELLSOUTH.NET Fri Nov 30 20:01:44 2007 From: norafavorov at BELLSOUTH.NET (Nora Favorov) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:01:44 -0500 Subject: SEELANGS Digest - 29 Nov 2007 to 30 Nov 2007 - Special issue (#2007-277) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear SEELANGERS, As a busy professional translator I tend to delete my SEELANGS digest after a brief glance, but I have followed recent discussions on the art and practice of translation with interest. Thanks to Josh Wilson for taking the time to type out the sort of thought process we translators go through several times per paragraph, mentally weighing meaning vs. style, dictionary definition vs. usage, alliterative effect/repetitiveness/register vs. literal accuracy, authorial intent vs. reader expectation, etc.. And to his wife for her thoughtful comment. And to others, including Olga Meerson for her words on the client-translator relationship and her well-taken point about Garnett & Dostoevsky, part of another discussion that has been treated thoughtfully in recent reviews of the new P/V War & Peace (did anyone post a link to Orlando Riges review in the NY Review of Books? http://www.nybooks.com/articles/20810 - worth reading!). Three more points: 1. Congratulations to Paul G. for having his "trinity" so nicely christened by Josh. Your place in the annals of translation theory and practice is now secure. 2. On average my translation *word* counts expand by 20-25% (R to E), and that even with a tightening-up of the text. In addition to the articles and ofs, one reason for this is a frequent need to spell out acronyms of otherwise clarify some bit of Russian realia. I wonder why here in the US we don't use the method Josh mentioned. Using characters vs. words to price translations seems to make a lot of sense to me. 3. RE: the posting by Igor Horvat (which seems to have a sort of non-linear relevance to the translation discussion). Not wishing to pick on him in particular, it is my experience that "proofreading" is a bit of a misnomer (to put it mildly) when something written by a non-native speaker requires editing. As someone who has done a lot of this, I can attest that assisting non-native speakers prepare manuscripts or other texts can be extremely interesting and rewarding, but it usually takes longer than it would have to just translate the text from the writer's native language. I'm sure that Mr. Horvat can be forgiven for his choice of words, but often agencies hire translators for "proofreading" of translations by non-native speakers so they can pay the proofreading rate rather than the retranslate-the-whole-#&%*$#-thing rate. Now I'll go back to my lurking. Cheers, Nora Nora Seligman Favorov 100 Village Lane Chapel Hill, NC 27514 Tel. 919-960-6871 Fax 919-969-6628 Mobile 919-923-2772 Skype: nora.favorov ATA Certified (Russian into English) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From n.bermel at SHEFFIELD.AC.UK Fri Nov 30 09:36:52 2007 From: n.bermel at SHEFFIELD.AC.UK (Neil Bermel) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:36:52 +0000 Subject: Boodishnick Message-ID: Dear all, Here's one of those friend-of-a-friend-asked-me queries. I've checked a number of obvious sources to which I have access, including Russian print and online dictionaries and Yiddish and Ukrainian online dictionaries and googling the word in various spellings (only one hit...), but no luck. I'm not even sure if the word referred to is best treated as Russian (seems unlikely), Ukrainian, Yiddish.... "A word cropped up in a piece of fiction I’ve got to annotate for a book proposal. The word is ‘boodishnick’, which is how it’s spelt in the fiction, but I’m not sure whether it’s correctly spelled. The context is a pogrom in Odessa during the 1880s, and the word is used by one of the mob, who shouts ‘Who murdered the boodishnick?’ Could you help with a possible translation?" Any advice for this person will be greatly appreciated. Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------