Simple Grammar Question

[Nola]

Many, many thanks to all who responded to my question. What I have learned  is that it's quite complicated, worse than I thought. I understand now that context matters. I think...that if it is about demonstrating that something doesn't exist, then I will use the genitive. Otherwise, the accusative.
Thank you all again.
Nola

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Philip Robinson 
  To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu 
  Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 5:39 AM
  Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Simple Grammar Question


  As Alina Israeli suggests, apparently there was a shift over time.  
  Genitive on negated direct objects was more common in the eighteenth  
  and nineteenth centuries, but has gradually been displaced by the  
  accusative.

  Of course, there are plenty of exceptions, such as strong statements  
  of the non- existence of something.

  Phil Robinson

  Sent from my iPhone

  On Jun 18, 2009, at 6:39 PM, Alina Israeli <aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU> wrote:

  > This is a very complicated grammar question, worthy of a  
  > dissertation, and some already have been written.
  >
  > Somewhere around the turn of the 20th century there was a change in  
  > norm with negations in this phrase. We find in Chekhov: он не любит  
  > родины,  потому  что оставил там дурную память о себе (http://az.lib.ru/c/chehow_a_p/text_0210.shtml 
  > )
  >
  > and certainly earlier:
  >
  > Волынской не любит жены своей (http://az.lib.ru/l/lazhechnikow_i_i/text_0020.shtml 
  > )
  >
  > There is a split between concrete and/or specific vs. abstract and/ 
  > or general nouns, and a rather complicated view of what is concrete  
  > or specific; литература is concrete, hence accusative now, just as ж 
  > ена and родина.
  >
  > Огонь is general, non-specific, consequently
  > Ум не любит огня, ибо всегда состязается с сердцем. (lib.ru/RERIH/Re 
  > rih_Mir1.txt_Piece40.28) rather than огонь.
  >
  > Вода is more concrete, so the majority of examples we find are in ac 
  > cusative:
  > Ребенок не любит воду, но еще больше ненавидит дистанционное управле 
  > ние. (zhurnal.lib.ru/i/inspektor_p/morskaylisisa.shtml)
  >
  > although genitive is not as dated as in the case of the wife:
  >
  > Господин Пунтила не любит воды, я это сразу понял. (lib.ru/INPROZ/BR 
  > EHT/breht3_4.txt_Piece40.02)
  >
  > And of course one could debate the meaning of любить (there are seve 
  > ral) and its influence on the choice of the case.
  >
  >
  > Food is very complicated.
  >
  > не любит вина but не любит молоко
  > не любит манной каши and манную кашу, but the first one is 10 times  
  > more likely.
  > не любит хлеб and хлеба, but the first one is 200 times more likely.
  >
  > Variativity suggested by Paul Gallagher would be nice, but it  
  > doesn't always work: works for wine, but I doubt cream of wheat  
  > presupposes any variativity (or is it my hatred of it?). I would  
  > expect multiple varieties of bread, and yet accusative is preferred.
  >
  > Anyway, this is for another dissertation, or a paper.
  >
  > As much as I avoid examples from poetic language (I already once  
  > wrote about it in conjunction with -to and -nibud'), this one — Я не 
  >  люблю фатального исхода. — fits: there hasn't been any outcome at t 
  > he moment the poet spoke, so this is an abstraction.
  >
  > AI
  >
  >
  > Nola wrote:
  >> I apologise for asking this Russian grammar question on this list,  
  >> but so far, I can't get a satisfactory answer yet anywhere else.I  
  >> have asked Russians, who know what should be said, but not why or  
  >> about the rule which applies.
  >> I am having trouble with a sentence which could have either  
  >> genitive or accusative case applied to the last word. The Russian  
  >> speakers told me to use the accusative case. Okay..I will, but I  
  >> need to know a rule so that I can know when to choose accusative  
  >> over genitive in others like this.
  >> Анна Борисовна не любит литературу.( or литературы?)
  >> Nola
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >
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