commentary to student safety in St Petersburg

[Dustin Hosseini]

I called for more data because for my own reasons I will not fully accept a
study done by the particular group that was mentioned.   

Using the logic that's going around here, though, we might as well give
severe warnings to LGBT students as well: avoid Russia, or face the
potentially grave consequences.  

If we say Russia is a dangerous place for people of color, then I will put
forward these questions: 

What is the situation like for those who live in Russia of Caucasian descent?  
What is the situation like for the various Asian nationals and Asiatic
Russians who live in Russia?  

Both groups are of 'color', so using your logic they should face a lot of
issues.   For the sake of my argument, let's exclude random police checks
and migrant workers.  


>
>Fear getting in the way of things does not make the fear irrational. There's
>no logic to that.  And since you're not accepting the data on hate crimes in
>Russia, it's perfectly rational that you'd think it's not so dangerous that
>students of color might decide not to go there. But you haven't provided any
>compelling reasons for your dismissal of this data. And since you're so
>insistent on reputable data, where are your reputable data showing that
>Russia is not such a dangerous place for people of color?
>
>>
>> If 'people of color' can't study in Russia for the obvious main reasons of
>> studying the language, culture, and history in a rich context, then what is
>> the answer?  Should programs be set up in Belarus and Ukraine?
>>


You are right, but some have implied that it is a terribly dangerous idea to
do so, such that one should not risk their safety and/or well-being.    


>No one is saying that people of color can't study in Russia. They can. But
>they (and everyone involved in study abroad programs) should be informed of
>the very real problem of hate crimes so that they can make informed
>decisions about what risks they're willing to take when it comes to their
>safety and well-being.
>
>>
>> "the problem of racism will resolve itself".  Fine - this will seem like
>> apples and oranges, but if this problem has gone through a long process in
>> the US, why should we expect it to be solved overnight in Russia?  There is
>> a process and it has to be completed, and that does include a struggle of
>> some sort.
>>
>
>Who expects it to be solved overnight?
>
>>
>> No, I am against foreign interference in Russia for both issues.  Since
>> when
>> have Russians ever wholeheartedly welcomed outside influence to solve their
>> own problems?  I don't remember it ever causing much good either
>> objectively
>> or in the eyes of the Russians.
>>
>
>I think Alina responded more than sufficiently to this, but I'd like to just
>add that frankly, whether or not Russians respond well to foreign pressure
>to alleviate human rights violations is hardly my concern.  Anyone who
>supports human rights will welcome foreign interference, especially since
>supporting human rights within Russia is a dangerous position to take these
>days. Alina brought up apartheid - I really doubt that South Africans who
>supported apartheid welcomed foreign interference. Of course people who
>oppress or support the oppression of others will not welcome demands to stop
>- either from people within or outside of their country. So what? Should be
>not then try to stop human rights violations?

No, however comparing what happened in SA with apartheid to the LGBT
community's situation in Russia is just a bit off-balance.  

>>
>> Shlomit, I had a lot of friends and acquaintances in the LGBT community in
>> Moscow; I, a single solitary person, would inquire about their thoughts and
>> feelings on the failed 'pride parades'.  They considered it a shame,
>> something that lacked government support, something that completely lacked
>> organization, and it was ultimately a failure.
>> The guy behind the parades, Nikolai Alexeyev, does well at making a big
>> scandalous scene, but does little to produce anything effective.
>>
>
>> Many of the people with whom I spoke also thought it a bit silly that a
>> British MP would come over and try to change anything.  Again, it is that
>> idea of a foreigner interfering (and causing a scene) in a domestic affair
>> that does not sit well with many, regardless of whether they are LGBT or
>> not.
>>
>
>Your friends' and acquaintances' feelings about the pride parades and the
>British MP don't change the fact that there is systematic oppression of
>homosexuals in Russia.
>

No, but ultimately it is what they feel as being members of that community
that relates to how things will or will not be influenced or changed.  I
disagree that there is, as you call it, a systematic oppression of
homosexuals in Russia.   They are allowed to socialize in cyberspace without
any issue.  In the larger cities there are gay bars/clubs, and they have not
experienced any issues recently.  Gays aren't being swept off the streets,
you know... 

>> Let's not forget that only 10-20 years ago several countries that have up
>> to
>> now changed their laws on homosexuality, had in those days laws outlawing
>> the very idea or did not have provisions for protecting that particular
>> minority.


No, but when these issues are still happening in the US, why should certain
groups seek to project influence into Russia?  Granted, the UK is light
years ahead of the US on gay rights and does offer many provisions that the
US as a country does not, so perhaps they are in a better position to
dictate to Russia what should be done.  In any case, I don't feel other
countries should interfere on behalf of the LGBT community in Russia as long
as the status quo is kept.  

>Does that make homophobia, discrimination and physical assault of gays in
>Russia alright?
>
>>
>> In the US today gays may be able to hold parades, but that still doesn't
>> mean that they are all completely equal with their heterosexual
>> counterparts.  So, they will just have to wait until the rest of the
>> country
>> is ready.  I think that is logical.  Forcing someone's hand never wins any
>> friends or support.
>>
>

I am sorry.  The LGBT community in the US did wait and has had to wait and
will wait a few more years for full acceptance as equal citizens; for now,
they are second class as they are denied a multitude of rights.  It's great
what a few states have done, but they are still denied rights at the federal
level.  

Back to Russian gays - they can fight for it, and hopefully will do so at a
grassroots level with strong organization.  But for now they will have to
wait until some key events take place, perhaps (dis)similar to those that
took place in the US in the 1960s.  I am not here to define those events.  
Honestly, do you yourself feel that Russian society is ready for that change?  

>No, they will not just have to wait, and they don't just wait. And how dare
>you tell any group of people that they just have to wait around for equal
>rights?  I don't think gay rights supporters are interested in making
>friends with or asking politely for support from those who find their
>sexuality problematic. 

I disagree yet again.  There have been many mothers and fathers (in the US
and UK) who were homophobic until, low and behold, their daughter or son
came out as lesbian or gay.  Those parents undoubtedly suffered a lot of
grief and soul searching, but a lot have come to accept their children and
realize that it really is OK to be gay.  


The LGBT community just wants the same rights as
>heterosexuals, and no one who is homophobic will wake up one day and think,
>"You know what, I actually think there's nothing wrong with being gay." If
>we all just waited around for people to not be racist or homophobic or
>sexist or whatever, we'd be in big trouble.
>
>Shlomit

Alina wrote:
-You are possibly confusing gay rights and gay parade. Only those gays  
-afflicted by self-hatred and the Stockholm syndrome can be against  
-having equal rights with heterosexuals, although self-hatred and  
-shame are not uncommon among minorities of all stripes.

I believe to those who are involved the parade is a way of expressing their
rights.  I did not mention that they do not want equal rights, I stated that
the way the parade was handled was considered shameful as it showed a real
lack of organization and focus, in addition to a silly foreigner muddling
the message down.  


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