From steiger at ROGERS.COM Thu Jul 1 04:00:22 2010 From: steiger at ROGERS.COM (Krystyna Steiger) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 00:00:22 -0400 Subject: more translation help Message-ID: Dear fellow list members, another question about the Pyetsukh piece I'm working on: in yet another discussion about good and evil, one character suggests to the other that somehow or other, in primitive man, good evolved from the 'law of the jungle:' Ведь не так уж мудрено было проточеловеку сообразть, что выживание ему обеспечивает не только механическое зло, которое представляет собой все-таки какое-то "целенаправленное деление," но и добро, точнее будет сказать, преддобро, которое представляет собой "выгодное неделение." Потому что ведь не убей, не изувечь, не укради у сородича последний кусок -- это выгдное неделение . . . I'm wondering if the two terms I have in quotes, [tselenapravlennoe delenie and vygodnoe nedelenie] are fixed, ideologically oriented terms in Russian and, hence, also in English? So far I have been thinking along the lines of, say, "single-minded alienation vs. advantageous non- or de-alienation" or even "distinction vs. non-distinction." Again, I would greatly appreciate any suggestions on or off list. Thanks in advance and very best to all, Krystyna ______________________________ Krystyna Steiger, PhD steiger at rogers.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From cxwilkinson at GOOGLEMAIL.COM Thu Jul 1 08:30:25 2010 From: cxwilkinson at GOOGLEMAIL.COM (Wilkinson, C.) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 09:30:25 +0100 Subject: Petition against relocation of European Resource Centre/Baykov Library at University of Birmingham Message-ID: Dear All, It has been announced that the European Resource Centre, which incorporates the Baykov Library, is to be moved off the main Edgbaston campus here at the University of Birmingham and relocated off the main campus at a site several miles away (the Orchard Learning Resource Centre, accessible via a 15-20 minute shuttle bus ride). The move is to be completed by September. This decision has been taken without any consultation with staff or students, despite the detrimental impact that more limited access will have to both teaching and research in the fields of Russian and East European Studies and European Studies more widely. The justification for not consulting staff or students is that this is the only viable option, seeing as the ERC has been identified as the location for a new "Heritage Learning Hub". Information about the Baykov Library, which is a unique collection of social science texts relating to Russia and Eastern Europe, can be found at http://www.crees.bham.ac.uk/about/baykov.shtml A petition has been set up and your support would be appreciated in trying to keep this resource on campus and accessible to students, staff and visitors alike. The petition is at http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/baykov-library.html Please feel free to forward this information. With thanks, C. Wilkinson ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From J.Dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Thu Jul 1 12:52:25 2010 From: J.Dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 14:52:25 +0200 Subject: taking poll on pronunciation Message-ID: As it happens, I have of late been contemplating the rules by which English speakers assign stress to unfamiliar Russian names. In the instance of Borodino, two rules would seem to be relevant. The first is that final stress is generally avoided. There are exceptions to this with some two-syllable names, particularly if they are transliterated according to French norms (as used to be the practice for passports and the like), but final stress does not appear to occur spontaneously with longer names. The second rule is that English prefers to avoid sequences of more than two unstressed syllables. With four-syllable names there are thus two options, and while it is my impression that the second syllable is the 'default' (if there is one), the actual assignment appears to depend on the shape of the word. I am sure that a previous correspondent is correct in suggesting that BoroDIno is prompted by Italian patterns such as ValenTIno, just as the pattern CasaNOva is probably responsible for stress assignments of the SharaPOva type. John Dunn. -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Windle To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 13:27:33 +1000 Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] taking poll on pronunciation In my experience as a Brit living in Australia, speakers in the UK and Australia will pronounce BorodINo with exactly the stress preferred in North America, i.e. primary stress on the third syllable and a weaker one on the first. Stressing the last syllable seems unnatural to most speakers of English. It may actually render the name unrecognizable to them, forcing those who do know Russian to shift the stress to the penult when speaking English. Much the same thing happens with Vladivostok. English-speakers will generally place the stress on the penult. Kevin Windle, John Dunn Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) University of Glasgow, Scotland Address: Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 40137 Bologna Italy Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it John Dunn Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) University of Glasgow, Scotland Address: Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 40137 Bologna Italy Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From krechakj at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jul 1 13:10:27 2010 From: krechakj at HOTMAIL.COM (Julia Krechak) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 09:10:27 -0400 Subject: please help with translation In-Reply-To: <1277988745.9f83cd1cJ.Dunn@slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk> Message-ID: Dear SEERANGers, Could you please help me with the translation the following phrase from Belarussian into English: "Зямная дарога у вырай. беларускiя народныя прыкметы i павер'i " (ziamnaia daroga u vyrai. belaruskiia narodnyia prykmety i paver'i) Thank you very much in advance! Julia _________________________________________________________________ Электронная почта и не только — готова к работе. Получите Windows Live Hotmail бесплатно. https://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Thu Jul 1 13:20:39 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 09:20:39 -0400 Subject: taking poll on pronunciation In-Reply-To: <1277988745.9f83cd1cJ.Dunn@slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk> Message-ID: John Dunn wrote: > As it happens, I have of late been contemplating the rules by which > English speakers assign stress to unfamiliar Russian names. In the > instance of Borodino, two rules would seem to be relevant. > > The first is that final stress is generally avoided. There are > exceptions to this with some two-syllable names, particularly if they > are transliterated according to French norms (as used to be the > practice for passports and the like), but final stress does not > appear to occur spontaneously with longer names. > > The second rule is that English prefers to avoid sequences of more > than two unstressed syllables. With four-syllable names there are > thus two options, and while it is my impression that the second > syllable is the 'default' (if there is one), the actual assignment > appears to depend on the shape of the word. I am sure that a > previous correspondent is correct in suggesting that BoroDIno is > prompted by Italian patterns such as ValenTIno, just as the pattern > CasaNOva is probably responsible for stress assignments of the > SharaPOva type. Agreed. I would add that other things being equal, certain syllable types tend to attract stress in English -- syllables with complex consonant clusters, diphthongs, and "long vowels" seem to be preferred over CV syllables and those with "short vowels." Thus, it's more likely that the stress would be placed finally if the word were "Borodinay" or "Borodinoskt" (imaginary but permissible English words). By the same token, the imaginary word "Boraudino" would most likely get antepenultimate stress. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Thu Jul 1 14:14:29 2010 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 10:14:29 -0400 Subject: taking poll on pronunciation In-Reply-To: <1277988745.9f83cd1cJ.Dunn@slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk> Message-ID: If it were that simple Zvonarëva would be pronounced correctly, but it isn't. I could offer a few of more names for a stress test (so to speak): Shaposhnikova, Tartakovskaya, Slutskaya, Myskina, all usually mispronounced. On Jul 1, 2010, at 8:52 AM, John Dunn wrote: > , just as the pattern CasaNOva is probably responsible for stress > assignments of the SharaPOva type. Alina Israeli Associate Professor of Russian LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave. Washington DC 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Thu Jul 1 14:46:02 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 10:46:02 -0400 Subject: taking poll on pronunciation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Alina Israeli wrote: > If it were that simple Zvonarëva would be pronounced correctly, but it > isn't. > > I could offer a few of more names for a stress test (so to speak): > Shaposhnikova, Tartakovskaya, Slutskaya, Myskina, all usually > mispronounced. If journalists would take a moment out of their busy days to actually /listen/ to the names, they'd do much better. In the vast majority of cases, however, they don't even bother. They look at the spelling and take wild guesses based on their own native intuitions, personal incompetences, and so forth. That's how you get "Suh-VAHN-uh-REY-vuh" in the final. I saw an interview last night with one "Anna Vassil-YAY!-va" where the anchor sat in the same room with her saying her name wrong over and over to her face. Sheesh... An English speaker is perfectly capable of saying "Navrátil," but the moment you tack on the feminine suffix (Navrátilová), everything changes and you get "Näävratilouva" -- again, because they've never heard it said and don't know Czech spelling and pronunciation rules. It doesn't help that diacritics (such as the umlaut on ë) are usually stripped before they even see them. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From J.Dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Thu Jul 1 15:13:48 2010 From: J.Dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 17:13:48 +0200 Subject: taking poll on pronunciation Message-ID: I am distinctly taken aback to discover that my inadvertant re-sending* of a message first seen on this list several weeks ago has produced rather more responses than it did the first time round. It is, as Alina Israeli, says, not that simple, and if one were minded to take this question beyond mere contemplation to the levels of a serious academic study, then one would need to take into account not only the stress patterns of English (especially with regard to proper names), but also such matters as spurious analogies with other foreign languages, unhelpful transliteration systems and even the stress patterns of Russian itself. Meanwhile, you may wish to know that the All-England Lawn Tennis Championships are being graced this year by a gentleman called, if the BBC (and at least one umpire) are to be believed, DolgOpolov. I wonder, though, with respect to Paul Gallagher, how easy it is for an English speaker to pronounce Navrátil correctly. In my experience English speakers have problems with long vowels in unstressed syllables and thus tend either to shorten the vowel or shift the stress onto the second syllable. And Navrátilová, which combines a sequence of four unstressed syllables with two long unstressed vowels, is even harder to get right than Всеволодовна. John Dunn. *Yes, I pressed 'send' instead of 'delete'. Ah, the joys of computing on hot summer afternoons. And apologies to those who weren't interested in the message the first time round. -----Original Message----- From: Alina Israeli To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 10:14:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] taking poll on pronunciation If it were that simple Zvonarëva would be pronounced correctly, but it isn't. I could offer a few of more names for a stress test (so to speak): Shaposhnikova, Tartakovskaya, Slutskaya, Myskina, all usually mispronounced. On Jul 1, 2010, at 8:52 AM, John Dunn wrote: > , just as the pattern CasaNOva is probably responsible for stress > assignments of the SharaPOva type. Alina Israeli Associate Professor of Russian LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave. Washington DC 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Dunn Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) University of Glasgow, Scotland Address: Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 40137 Bologna Italy Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU Thu Jul 1 16:56:59 2010 From: hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU (Hugh McLean) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 09:56:59 -0700 Subject: taking poll on pronunciation In-Reply-To: <1277988745.9f83cd1cJ.Dunn@slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk> Message-ID: John Dunn is doubtless right that the Casanova model is responsible for SharapOva, though I wonder why such English models as intErrogate, regUrgitate, infUriate are ignored. In any case, the mindless provincialism of American TV sports announcers is especially noticeable during the Wimbledon broadcasts. Yesterday we had Berdych consistently pronounced burr-ditch by the American announcers and commentators, even though the official referee was doing a very good job of bear-dikh, with an excellent velar fricative for the Czech ch. Shame! Let's infuriate! Hugh McLean > As it happens, I have of late been contemplating the rules by which English speakers assign stress to unfamiliar Russian names. In the instance of Borodino, two rules would seem to be relevant. > > The first is that final stress is generally avoided. There are exceptions to this with some two-syllable names, particularly if they are transliterated according to French norms (as used to be the practice for passports and the like), but final stress does not appear to occur spontaneously with longer names. > > The second rule is that English prefers to avoid sequences of more than two unstressed syllables. With four-syllable names there are thus two options, and while it is my impression that the second syllable is the 'default' (if there is one), the actual assignment appears to depend on the shape of the word. I am sure that a previous correspondent is correct in suggesting that BoroDIno is prompted by Italian patterns such as ValenTIno, just as the pattern CasaNOva is probably responsible for stress assignments of the SharaPOva type. > > John Dunn. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kevin Windle > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 13:27:33 +1000 > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] taking poll on pronunciation > > In my experience as a Brit living in Australia, speakers in the UK and Australia will pronounce BorodINo with exactly the stress preferred in North America, i.e. primary stress on the third syllable and a weaker one on the first. Stressing the last syllable seems unnatural to most speakers of English. It may actually render the name unrecognizable to them, forcing those who do know Russian to shift the stress to the penult when speaking English. Much the same thing happens with Vladivostok. English-speakers will generally place the stress on the penult. > > Kevin Windle, > > > John Dunn > Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) > University of Glasgow, Scotland > > Address: > Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 > 40137 Bologna > Italy > Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 > e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk > johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it > > > John Dunn > Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) > University of Glasgow, Scotland > > Address: > Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 > 40137 Bologna > Italy > Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 > e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk > johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU Thu Jul 1 17:01:16 2010 From: hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU (Hugh McLean) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 10:01:16 -0700 Subject: taking poll on pronunciation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think Zvonreva is partly to blame for transliterating her name that way. Non speakers of Russian couldn't possibly get it right.Why doesn't she call herself Zvonaryova? Then she could join SharapOva! > If it were that simple Zvonarëva would be pronounced correctly, but it > isn't. > > I could offer a few of more names for a stress test (so to speak): > Shaposhnikova, Tartakovskaya, Slutskaya, Myskina, all usually > mispronounced. > > > > On Jul 1, 2010, at 8:52 AM, John Dunn wrote: > >> , just as the pattern CasaNOva is probably responsible for stress >> assignments of the SharaPOva type. > > Alina Israeli > Associate Professor of Russian > LFS, American University > 4400 Massachusetts Ave. > Washington DC 20016 > (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 > aisrael at american.edu > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From miriam at LING.ROCHESTER.EDU Thu Jul 1 17:37:34 2010 From: miriam at LING.ROCHESTER.EDU (Miriam) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 13:37:34 -0400 Subject: pronunciation and translation query In-Reply-To: <4C2CC8DB.5010507@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: and I heard Mucha being pronounced Mjutcha. (be it Alfons or the soccer player) To take a Czech detour, I have a question, esteemed SEELANGS colleagues, recently I was part of an interesting discussion on the English (i.e.. translated) title of the Czech film: Musime si pomahat (literally: We have to help each other). It is known in English as "Divided We Fall". For many Czechs and Slovaks or those who know enough of the relevant history, this particular translation may allude immediately to the "hot" issue of the division of Czechoslovakia (which happened more than once...). The film, in the meantime, deals with the Czechs (Christians and Jews) helping each other during the Second World War. No division issues. Does anybody have any thoughts on this? I would appreciate thoughts on a more general level as well, from anybody interested in translation of titles. thank you very much Miriam Margala University of Rochester Hugh McLean wrote: > John Dunn is doubtless right that the Casanova model is responsible > for SharapOva, though I wonder why such English models as intErrogate, > regUrgitate, infUriate are ignored. In any case, the mindless > provincialism of American TV sports announcers is especially > noticeable during the Wimbledon broadcasts. Yesterday we had Berdych > consistently pronounced burr-ditch by the American announcers and > commentators, even though the official referee was doing a very good > job of bear-dikh, with an excellent velar fricative for the Czech ch. > > Shame! Let's infuriate! > > Hugh McLean ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Ralph.Cleminson at PORT.AC.UK Thu Jul 1 18:08:30 2010 From: Ralph.Cleminson at PORT.AC.UK (Ralph Cleminson) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 19:08:30 +0100 Subject: taking poll on pronunciation Message-ID: >>> Hugh McLean 01/07/10 5:58 PM >>> John Dunn is doubtless right that the Casanova model is responsible for SharapOva, It cuts both ways. As a Slavist, I've found myself pronouncing the name of the Dutch rose grower Rosanova as Rozánova. It doesn't help being a mediævalist either. A while ago I caught sight of a newspaper headline "£30,000 charge for cæsareans" and remarked to my daughter "I read that as '£30,000 charge for Cæsaréans'." To which she replied "Isn't that what it says?" ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Thu Jul 1 18:42:21 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 14:42:21 -0400 Subject: Translation queries: Ipatyevskaya letopis, 1184 Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I'm using up my third and final posting for the day with this, so please understand why I can't reply publicly until tomorrow. Thanks in advance for your assistance. My source text reads: Вот как в Ипатьевской летописи описаны события одной из битв объединенного войска русских князей, состоявшейся в 1184 г.: «... Двинулся окаянный и безбожный и трижды проклятый Кончак с бесчисленными полками половецкими на Русь, надеясь захватить и пожечь огнем города русские, ибо нашел некого мужа басурманина, который стрелял живым огнем. Хан Кончак имел мужа, умеющего стрелять огнем и зажигать грады, у коего был самострельные луки так велики, что едва восемь человек могли натягивать, и укреплены были на возу великом. Сам он мог бросать каменья в середину града в подъем человеку и для метания огня имел особый малейший, но вельми хитро сделанный». My queries are as follows: 1) "У коего был самострельные луки..." -- singular or plural bow(s)? By majority rule, should be plural... I have no reason to think this is one of the anomalous nouns that is apparently plural but logically singular, but I'm open to guidance. 2) "в подъем человеку" -- "to the height of a man"? Certainly the point is not to raise a man, but to knock him down! 3) "для метания огня имел особый малейший, но вельми хитро сделанный" -- where's the masc.sg. noun that goes with the adjectives? Should I assume "лук"? If it helps, my author is concerned with the use of so-called "Greek fire" ("греческий огонь"), a weapon developed by the Byzantines in which a mixture of petroleum and other secret ingredients was heated in a pot and shot through a tube against an enemy target (originally, warships). The term "живой огонь" was also used for this. Part of my confusion here lies in the use of a bow, which should not be able to propel a liquid. Thanks very much. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From elena.ostrovskaya at GMAIL.COM Thu Jul 1 20:05:06 2010 From: elena.ostrovskaya at GMAIL.COM (Elena Ostrovskaya) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 00:05:06 +0400 Subject: Translation queries: Ipatyevskaya letopis, 1184 In-Reply-To: <4C2CE18D.2060108@pbg-translations.com> Message-ID: Dear Paul, 1) It is plural - bows, all the words that agree with 'luki' (plural) are also plural but the verb 'byl'. That must be a typo. In the original in Old Slavonic it is plural. 3) The noun is missing and is not clear. I tried to find it in the original, but it is not in the main version (spisok). The only context for it I was able to find is a strange article in Rodina magazine (is this the one you are translating?). It is hard to say which noun they mean, so you can only translate it the way it is, without any noun at all. This way it looks as strange in Russian as it would in English. I don't really think you need it, but just in case this is the link to Ipatievskaya letopis at the site of Vinogradov Institute of Russian Language. It is to the page with this text. Your text is at the bottom of the page and goes to next page. But it is shorter and slightly different. I guess it is not Ipatievskaya, after all. http://www.lrc-lib.ru/rus_letopisi/Ipatius/gif_mm.php?file=633-634.gif My two cents, Elena Ostrovskaya. 2010/7/1 Paul B. Gallagher > Dear colleagues, > > I'm using up my third and final posting for the day with this, so please > understand why I can't reply publicly until tomorrow. Thanks in advance for > your assistance. > > My source text reads: > > Вот как в Ипатьевской летописи описаны события одной из битв объединенного > войска русских князей, состоявшейся в 1184 г.: <<... Двинулся окаянный и > безбожный и трижды проклятый Кончак с бесчисленными полками половецкими на > Русь, надеясь захватить и пожечь огнем города русские, ибо нашел некого мужа > басурманина, который стрелял живым огнем. Хан Кончак имел мужа, умеющего > стрелять огнем и зажигать грады, у коего был самострельные луки так велики, > что едва восемь человек могли натягивать, и укреплены были на возу великом. > Сам он мог бросать каменья в середину града в подъем человеку и для метания > огня имел особый малейший, но вельми хитро сделанный>>. > > My queries are as follows: > > 1) "У коего был самострельные луки..." -- singular or plural bow(s)? By > majority rule, should be plural... I have no reason to think this is one of > the anomalous nouns that is apparently plural but logically singular, but > I'm open to guidance. > > 2) "в подъем человеку" -- "to the height of a man"? Certainly the point is > not to raise a man, but to knock him down! > > 3) "для метания огня имел особый малейший, но вельми хитро сделанный" -- > where's the masc.sg. noun that goes with the adjectives? Should I assume > "лук"? > > If it helps, my author is concerned with the use of so-called "Greek fire" > ("греческий огонь"), a weapon developed by the Byzantines in which a mixture > of petroleum and other secret ingredients was heated in a pot and shot > through a tube against an enemy target (originally, warships). The term > "живой огонь" was also used for this. Part of my confusion here lies in the > use of a bow, which should not be able to propel a liquid. > > Thanks very much. > > -- > War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. > -- > Paul B. Gallagher > pbg translations, inc. > "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" > http://pbg-translations.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From n_shevchuk at YAHOO.COM Thu Jul 1 20:47:22 2010 From: n_shevchuk at YAHOO.COM (Nina Murray) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 13:47:22 -0700 Subject: Translation queries: Ipatyevskaya letopis, 1184 In-Reply-To: <4C2CE18D.2060108@pbg-translations.com> Message-ID: Paul -- "каменья ... в подъем человеку" -- в подъем modifies каменья (to me) and thus means rocks as heavy as a man could possibly lift, at the extreme of a man's strength. As big as himself, basically. Hope this helps. Best, Nina Murray Translator of "Fish: A Story of One Migration" http://www.russianlife.com/peteraleshkovsky/ ________________________________ From: Paul B. Gallagher To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Sent: Thu, July 1, 2010 1:42:21 PM Subject: [SEELANGS] Translation queries: Ipatyevskaya letopis, 1184 Dear colleagues, I'm using up my third and final posting for the day with this, so please understand why I can't reply publicly until tomorrow. Thanks in advance for your assistance. My source text reads: Вот как в Ипатьевской летописи описаны события одной из битв объединенного войска русских князей, состоявшейся в 1184 г.: «... Двинулся окаянный и безбожный и трижды проклятый Кончак с бесчисленными полками половецкими на Русь, надеясь захватить и пожечь огнем города русские, ибо нашел некого мужа басурманина, который стрелял живым огнем. Хан Кончак имел мужа, умеющего стрелять огнем и зажигать грады, у коего был самострельные луки так велики, что едва восемь человек могли натягивать, и укреплены были на возу великом. Сам он мог бросать каменья в середину града в подъем человеку и для метания огня имел особый малейший, но вельми хитро сделанный». My queries are as follows: 1) "У коего был самострельные луки..." -- singular or plural bow(s)? By majority rule, should be plural... I have no reason to think this is one of the anomalous nouns that is apparently plural but logically singular, but I'm open to guidance. 2) "в подъем человеку" -- "to the height of a man"? Certainly the point is not to raise a man, but to knock him down! 3) "для метания огня имел особый малейший, но вельми хитро сделанный" -- where's the masc.sg. noun that goes with the adjectives? Should I assume "лук"? If it helps, my author is concerned with the use of so-called "Greek fire" ("греческий огонь"), a weapon developed by the Byzantines in which a mixture of petroleum and other secret ingredients was heated in a pot and shot through a tube against an enemy target (originally, warships). The term "живой огонь" was also used for this. Part of my confusion here lies in the use of a bow, which should not be able to propel a liquid. Thanks very much. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Fri Jul 2 00:30:53 2010 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 20:30:53 -0400 Subject: Translation queries: Ipatyevskaya letopis, 1184 In-Reply-To: <403703.46471.qm@web112410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: You are probably using this text: http://www.istrodina.com/ rodina_articul.php3?id=2746&n=134 It has the incorrect agreement: у коего был самострельные луки так велики Besides, the last sentence Сам он мог бросать каменья в середину града в подъём человеку и для метания огня имел особый малейший, но вельми хитро сделанный, as far as I can see, is not only ungrammatical in Russian (the object is missing имел ЧТО?), but also does not seem to be present in the original — top of the p. 635. This strange sentence is also on the above mentioned Zhurnal Rodina site. This translation from O.R. to Russian here: http://old-ru.ru/ 03-18.html is closer to the Old Russian, has no grammatical mistakes in agreement, and does not have the objectionable sentence that I just mentioned which appeared in "translation" from nowhere". > Alina Israeli Associate Professor of Russian LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave. Washington DC 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Ralph.Cleminson at PORT.AC.UK Fri Jul 2 09:45:53 2010 From: Ralph.Cleminson at PORT.AC.UK (Ralph Cleminson) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:45:53 +0100 Subject: Translation queries: Ipatyevskaya letopis, 1184 Message-ID: As others have already pointed out, the text from "и укреплены были на возу" to "вельми хитро сделанный" is not in the Hypatian Chronicle, at least as edited in the PSRL. Presumably it comes from somewhere, but short of going through all the volumes of the PSRL there doesn't seem to be an easy way of identifying the source (though it might be worth checking the relevant volume of Solov'ev's history, he uses a lot of chronicle material). I strongly suspect that there was an Old Russian source, as малѣишии is used in the sense of Modern Russian меньший. "Был" is presumably a misprint, as the original is clearly plural: бяхоу же и оу нихъ лоуци тоузи самострѣлнии. It should be noted that these are not "bows" in the common meaning of the English word, but siege engines of some sort, as it took fifty men (in the original, not eight, as in the translation) to draw them. Since the translator is clearly unreliable (both in citing his sources and rendering them accurately), on no account should the non-Hypatian part of this passage be used for any scholarly purpose until the original has been identified and checked. >>> "Paul B. Gallagher" 01/07/10 7:43 PM >>> Dear colleagues, I'm using up my third and final posting for the day with this, so please understand why I can't reply publicly until tomorrow. Thanks in advance for your assistance. My source text reads: Вот как в Ипатьевской летописи описаны события одной из битв объединенного войска русских князей, состоявшейся в 1184 г.: «... Двинулся окаянный и безбожный и трижды проклятый Кончак с бесчисленными полками половецкими на Русь, надеясь захватить и пожечь огнем города русские, ибо нашел некого мужа басурманина, который стрелял живым огнем. Хан Кончак имел мужа, умеющего стрелять огнем и зажигать грады, у коего был самострельные луки так велики, что едва восемь человек могли натягивать, и укреплены были на возу великом. Сам он мог бросать каменья в середину града в подъем человеку и для метания огня имел особый малейший, но вельми хитро сделанный». My queries are as follows: 1) "У коего был самострельные луки..." -- singular or plural bow(s)? By majority rule, should be plural... I have no reason to think this is one of the anomalous nouns that is apparently plural but logically singular, but I'm open to guidance. 2) "в подъем человеку" -- "to the height of a man"? Certainly the point is not to raise a man, but to knock him down! 3) "для метания огня имел особый малейший, но вельми хитро сделанный" -- where's the masc.sg. noun that goes with the adjectives? Should I assume "лук"? If it helps, my author is concerned with the use of so-called "Greek fire" ("греческий огонь"), a weapon developed by the Byzantines in which a mixture of petroleum and other secret ingredients was heated in a pot and shot through a tube against an enemy target (originally, warships). The term "живой огонь" was also used for this. Part of my confusion here lies in the use of a bow, which should not be able to propel a liquid. Thanks very much. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From irybalsky at AD-ART.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Jul 2 13:20:25 2010 From: irybalsky at AD-ART.RUTGERS.EDU (Irene Rybalsky) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 08:20:25 -0500 Subject: Nonconformist Art from Soviet Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan Exhibition in Zimmerli Art museum Message-ID: The Colors of the Steppe: Nonconformist Art from Soviet Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan Opening ReceptiOn Wednesday, July 75:30 tO 8:00pm The neighboring central Asian nations of Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan share a physical geography defined by the flat grasslands known as the steppe, as well as Islamic traditions of the arts and architecture featuring the decorative use of vivid color. When Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan were part of the Soviet Union, professional artists were required to work in the official Soviet style of Socialist Realism which favored heroic and patriotic topics painted in a conservative style. The Colors of the Steppe examines the revival of expressive color in the underground or nonconformist art of Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan, in which tradition and innovation are combined to produce a modern, regional art. Organizing curator: Adrian Barr, Dodge Fellow Zimmerli Art Museum, Rutgers University The Colors of the Steppe is on view through October 24, 2010 a curator-led tour will take place at 5:30pm. Wednesday, October 13 6:00pm Film and discussiOn the desert of Forbidden art is a documentary about the Nukus Museum of Art, Uzbekistan, which houses thousands of works by Russian avant-garde and nonconformist artists, prohibited from display under Soviet rule. The film, created by Amanda Pope and Tchavdar Georgiev, will be followed by a discussion with Marinika Babanazarova, director of the Nukus Museum of Art. Zimmerli Art Museum Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey 71 Hamilton Street New Brunswick, New Jersey 08901-1248 732.932.7237 www.zimmerlimuseum.rutgers.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rrobin at GWU.EDU Fri Jul 2 15:39:53 2010 From: rrobin at GWU.EDU (Richard Robin) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 11:39:53 -0400 Subject: taking poll on pronunciation In-Reply-To: <4C2CC8DB.5010507@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: Specialists in English phonology will correct me, but isn't the English default stress on a four-syllable noun composed of open syllables on the penultimate? As in Manitoba Colorado propaganda panorama emphysema plus the assigned place of stress for most place names of native American origin, regardless of language of origin. Exceptions to this tendency, like amygdala and Kalamazoo, *sound** *like exceptions. So Sharapóva and Borodíno obey that rule. On the other hand, Americans have always had both stress and vowel problems with Russian names containing ё, probably, as Hugh McLean said, because of the transliteration, but also no doubt because word-final stress in nouns (as in -ёв last names) is so rare in English. So Khrúshchev was Khrushchóv only on the lips of President Kennedy and NBC's Chet Huntley. Gorbachev defaulted to initial stress, although a few talking heads insisted on Gorbáchev. Finally, I would add that the hardest vocabulary item for my own beginning students is the last name of our program's course coordinator, Shatalina, which students insist on rhyming with Catalina, even well into middle of first year. So how did Anna Karenina survive with her name intact? -Richard Robin On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Hugh McLean wrote: > John Dunn is doubtless right that the Casanova model is responsible for > SharapOva, though I wonder why such English models as intErrogate, > regUrgitate, infUriate are ignored. In any case, the mindless provincialism > of American TV sports announcers is especially noticeable during the > Wimbledon broadcasts. Yesterday we had Berdych consistently pronounced > burr-ditch by the American announcers and commentators, even though the > official referee was doing a very good job of bear-dikh, with an excellent > velar fricative for the Czech ch. > > Shame! Let's infuriate! > > Hugh McLean > >> As it happens, I have of late been contemplating the rules by which >> English speakers assign stress to unfamiliar Russian names. In the instance >> of Borodino, two rules would seem to be relevant. >> >> The first is that final stress is generally avoided. There are exceptions >> to this with some two-syllable names, particularly if they are >> transliterated according to French norms (as used to be the practice for >> passports and the like), but final stress does not appear to occur >> spontaneously with longer names. >> >> The second rule is that English prefers to avoid sequences of more than >> two unstressed syllables. With four-syllable names there are thus two >> options, and while it is my impression that the second syllable is the >> 'default' (if there is one), the actual assignment appears to depend on the >> shape of the word. I am sure that a previous correspondent is correct in >> suggesting that BoroDIno is prompted by Italian patterns such as ValenTIno, >> just as the pattern CasaNOva is probably responsible for stress assignments >> of the SharaPOva type. >> >> John Dunn. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kevin Windle >> To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >> Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 13:27:33 +1000 >> Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] taking poll on pronunciation >> >> In my experience as a Brit living in Australia, speakers in the UK and >> Australia will pronounce BorodINo with exactly the stress preferred in North >> America, i.e. primary stress on the third syllable and a weaker one on the >> first. Stressing the last syllable seems unnatural to most speakers of >> English. It may actually render the name unrecognizable to them, forcing >> those who do know Russian to shift the stress to the penult when speaking >> English. Much the same thing happens with Vladivostok. English-speakers will >> generally place the stress on the penult. >> >> Kevin Windle, >> >> >> John Dunn >> Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) >> University of Glasgow, Scotland >> >> Address: >> Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 >> 40137 Bologna >> Italy >> Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 >> e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk >> johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it >> >> >> John Dunn >> Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) >> University of Glasgow, Scotland >> >> Address: >> Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 >> 40137 Bologna >> Italy >> Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 >> e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk >> johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Richard M. Robin, Ph.D. Director Russian Language Program The George Washington University Washington, DC 20052 202-994-7081 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Russkiy tekst v UTF-8 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From caron.4 at BUCKEYEMAIL.OSU.EDU Fri Jul 2 16:33:44 2010 From: caron.4 at BUCKEYEMAIL.OSU.EDU (Inna Caron) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 16:33:44 +0000 Subject: taking poll on pronunciation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Richard Robin wrote: >So how did Anna Karenina survive with her name intact? Funny you should ask that. In Bernard Rose's film (1997), Anna, courtesy of Sophie Marceau, asks Vronsky in a jealous fit: "Then why was it delivered by Princess Soro-KIna?" (stress on "i" as opposed to the second "o"). Anyway, as the person responsible for the initial query I thank everyone for confirming what I suspected from the beginning: a general reader will be most comfortable with the pronunciation "Boro-DIno." Good to know, and much easier to rhyme. IC ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] on behalf of Richard Robin [rrobin at GWU.EDU] Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 11:39 AM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] taking poll on pronunciation Specialists in English phonology will correct me, but isn't the English default stress on a four-syllable noun composed of open syllables on the penultimate? As in Manitoba Colorado propaganda panorama emphysema plus the assigned place of stress for most place names of native American origin, regardless of language of origin. Exceptions to this tendency, like amygdala and Kalamazoo, *sound** *like exceptions. So Sharapóva and Borodíno obey that rule. On the other hand, Americans have always had both stress and vowel problems with Russian names containing ё, probably, as Hugh McLean said, because of the transliteration, but also no doubt because word-final stress in nouns (as in -ёв last names) is so rare in English. So Khrúshchev was Khrushchóv only on the lips of President Kennedy and NBC's Chet Huntley. Gorbachev defaulted to initial stress, although a few talking heads insisted on Gorbáchev. Finally, I would add that the hardest vocabulary item for my own beginning students is the last name of our program's course coordinator, Shatalina, which students insist on rhyming with Catalina, even well into middle of first year. So how did Anna Karenina survive with her name intact? -Richard Robin On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Hugh McLean wrote: > John Dunn is doubtless right that the Casanova model is responsible for > SharapOva, though I wonder why such English models as intErrogate, > regUrgitate, infUriate are ignored. In any case, the mindless provincialism > of American TV sports announcers is especially noticeable during the > Wimbledon broadcasts. Yesterday we had Berdych consistently pronounced > burr-ditch by the American announcers and commentators, even though the > official referee was doing a very good job of bear-dikh, with an excellent > velar fricative for the Czech ch. > > Shame! Let's infuriate! > > Hugh McLean > >> As it happens, I have of late been contemplating the rules by which >> English speakers assign stress to unfamiliar Russian names. In the instance >> of Borodino, two rules would seem to be relevant. >> >> The first is that final stress is generally avoided. There are exceptions >> to this with some two-syllable names, particularly if they are >> transliterated according to French norms (as used to be the practice for >> passports and the like), but final stress does not appear to occur >> spontaneously with longer names. >> >> The second rule is that English prefers to avoid sequences of more than >> two unstressed syllables. With four-syllable names there are thus two >> options, and while it is my impression that the second syllable is the >> 'default' (if there is one), the actual assignment appears to depend on the >> shape of the word. I am sure that a previous correspondent is correct in >> suggesting that BoroDIno is prompted by Italian patterns such as ValenTIno, >> just as the pattern CasaNOva is probably responsible for stress assignments >> of the SharaPOva type. >> >> John Dunn. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kevin Windle >> To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >> Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 13:27:33 +1000 >> Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] taking poll on pronunciation >> >> In my experience as a Brit living in Australia, speakers in the UK and >> Australia will pronounce BorodINo with exactly the stress preferred in North >> America, i.e. primary stress on the third syllable and a weaker one on the >> first. Stressing the last syllable seems unnatural to most speakers of >> English. It may actually render the name unrecognizable to them, forcing >> those who do know Russian to shift the stress to the penult when speaking >> English. Much the same thing happens with Vladivostok. English-speakers will >> generally place the stress on the penult. >> >> Kevin Windle, >> >> >> John Dunn >> Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) >> University of Glasgow, Scotland >> >> Address: >> Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 >> 40137 Bologna >> Italy >> Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 >> e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk >> johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it >> >> >> John Dunn >> Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) >> University of Glasgow, Scotland >> >> Address: >> Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 >> 40137 Bologna >> Italy >> Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 >> e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk >> johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Richard M. Robin, Ph.D. Director Russian Language Program The George Washington University Washington, DC 20052 202-994-7081 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Russkiy tekst v UTF-8 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Fri Jul 2 16:36:46 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 12:36:46 -0400 Subject: taking poll on pronunciation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Richard Robin wrote: > Specialists in English phonology will correct me, but isn't the > English default stress on a four-syllable noun composed of open > syllables on the penultimate? As in > > Manitoba > Colorado > propaganda > panorama > emphysema > plus the assigned place of stress for most place names of native > American origin, regardless of language of origin. You may be right, but none of your examples qualify as CV.CV.CV.CV. And even when they could, historical vowel "shortness" tends to cause a following C to move to the previous syllable. Thus, I would syllabify: Màn.i.tó.ba -- CVC. V .CV .CV ("short a" attracts C) Còl.o.rá.do -- CVC. V .CV .CV ("short o" attracts C) pròp.a.gán.da -- CVC. V .CVC.CV ("short o" attracts C) èm.phy.sé.ma -- VC.CV .CV .CV (/mf/ must be split) > Exceptions to this tendency, like amygdala and Kalamazoo, *sound** > *like exceptions. So Sharapóva and Borodíno obey that rule. Once again, a.mýg.da.la (antepenultimate stress from Greek) is not CV.CV.CV.CV, and Kàl.a.ma.zóo usually wouldn't be. Your claim, in the absence of supporting evidence, remains unproven. > On the other hand, Americans have always had both stress and vowel > problems with Russian names containing ё, probably, as Hugh McLean > said, because of the transliteration, but also no doubt because > word-final stress in nouns (as in -ёв last names) is so rare in > English. So Khrúshchev was Khrushchóv only on the lips of President > Kennedy and NBC's Chet Huntley. Gorbachev defaulted to initial > stress, although a few talking heads insisted on Gorbáchev. Another problem here, to which I alluded in a previous posting, is that closed syllables tend to attract stress. Since English cannot begin a syllable with /šč/ (/ʃʧ/), we must syllabify Khrush.chov, and that complex first syllable, besides being initial and penultimate, will also attract stress by dint of its complexity. I personally have /never/ heard Gorbáchev, only Górbachov and Gorbachóv and the occasional Górbachev. Was that a typo? > Finally, I would add that the hardest vocabulary item for my own > beginning students is the last name of our program's course > coordinator, Shatalina, which students insist on rhyming with > Catalina, even well into middle of first year. > > So how did Anna Karenina survive with her name intact? Only repetition can account for it. If we hear something often enough, it becomes normal, no matter how weird it was to begin with. When I first moved to Ohio back in the late 1970s, I encountered people using the "needs done" construction (e.g., "the floor needs swept") for the first time in my life and thought it not only ungrammatical, but foreign and so defective as to reflect the speaker's illiteracy or incompetence (yes, the reaction was that strong). After 15 years in Columbus, I got used to it and even occasionally used it myself, to the consternation of my Eastern relatives and friends, who thought I had contracted some disease and advised me to seek professional help. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Fri Jul 2 16:52:11 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 12:52:11 -0400 Subject: Translation queries: Ipatyevskaya letopis, 1184 In-Reply-To: <4C2DC361020000420008B6B9@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk> Message-ID: Thanks to Elena Ostrovskaya, Nina Murray, Alina Israeli, and Ralph Cleminson for their valuable and unique assistance. I would never have known where to look for the original without them. There is clearly a problem with both the quotation and the citation, and we have an author's query pending (this is for a book that will eventually be published some 190,000 words from now). I did find another modern translation that had a somewhat different version of this excerpt: 6693 (1185). Война половцев. Кончак кн. Стреляние огнем. Самострелы великие. Хорол р. Коварство половцев. Половцы побеждены. Безбожный и свирепый Кончак, князь половецкий, собрав войско великое, пошел на пределы русские, желая все города попленить и разорить, имея с собою мужа, умеющего стрелять огнем и зажигать грады, у коего были самострельные туги столь великие, что едва 8 человек могли натягивать, и каждый укреплен был на возу великом. Сим мог бросать каменья в средину града в подъем человеку и для метания огня имел приспособление особое, небольшое, но весьма хитро сделанное. Here I'm at a loss to understand the word "туги," but even if I could, I would still have to wait for the author's correction. I assume "сим" is a typo for "сам" = "тот, он" and not for "сий," but I would render all of these simply as "he" so it doesn't matter. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ashot-vardanyan at UIOWA.EDU Fri Jul 2 16:41:34 2010 From: ashot-vardanyan at UIOWA.EDU (Vardanyan, Ashot) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 11:41:34 -0500 Subject: taking poll on pronunciation Message-ID: I don't think the penultimate syllable in "propaganda" is open. Otherwise, yes, the principal stress falls on the third syllables in these four-syllable words. However, I don't think there is a strict rule on the accentuation of four-syllable or other polysyllabic nouns. Ashot Vardanyan ________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list on behalf of Richard Robin Sent: Fri 02-Jul-10 10:39 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] taking poll on pronunciation Specialists in English phonology will correct me, but isn't the English default stress on a four-syllable noun composed of open syllables on the penultimate? As in Manitoba Colorado propaganda panorama emphysema plus the assigned place of stress for most place names of native American origin, regardless of language of origin. Exceptions to this tendency, like amygdala and Kalamazoo, *sound** *like exceptions. So Sharapóva and Borodíno obey that rule. On the other hand, Americans have always had both stress and vowel problems with Russian names containing ?, probably, as Hugh McLean said, because of the transliteration, but also no doubt because word-final stress in nouns (as in -?? last names) is so rare in English. So Khrúshchev was Khrushchóv only on the lips of President Kennedy and NBC's Chet Huntley. Gorbachev defaulted to initial stress, although a few talking heads insisted on Gorbáchev. Finally, I would add that the hardest vocabulary item for my own beginning students is the last name of our program's course coordinator, Shatalina, which students insist on rhyming with Catalina, even well into middle of first year. So how did Anna Karenina survive with her name intact? -Richard Robin On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Hugh McLean wrote: > John Dunn is doubtless right that the Casanova model is responsible for > SharapOva, though I wonder why such English models as intErrogate, > regUrgitate, infUriate are ignored. In any case, the mindless provincialism > of American TV sports announcers is especially noticeable during the > Wimbledon broadcasts. Yesterday we had Berdych consistently pronounced > burr-ditch by the American announcers and commentators, even though the > official referee was doing a very good job of bear-dikh, with an excellent > velar fricative for the Czech ch. > > Shame! Let's infuriate! > > Hugh McLean > >> As it happens, I have of late been contemplating the rules by which >> English speakers assign stress to unfamiliar Russian names. In the instance >> of Borodino, two rules would seem to be relevant. >> >> The first is that final stress is generally avoided. There are exceptions >> to this with some two-syllable names, particularly if they are >> transliterated according to French norms (as used to be the practice for >> passports and the like), but final stress does not appear to occur >> spontaneously with longer names. >> >> The second rule is that English prefers to avoid sequences of more than >> two unstressed syllables. With four-syllable names there are thus two >> options, and while it is my impression that the second syllable is the >> 'default' (if there is one), the actual assignment appears to depend on the >> shape of the word. I am sure that a previous correspondent is correct in >> suggesting that BoroDIno is prompted by Italian patterns such as ValenTIno, >> just as the pattern CasaNOva is probably responsible for stress assignments >> of the SharaPOva type. >> >> John Dunn. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kevin Windle >> To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >> Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 13:27:33 +1000 >> Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] taking poll on pronunciation >> >> In my experience as a Brit living in Australia, speakers in the UK and >> Australia will pronounce BorodINo with exactly the stress preferred in North >> America, i.e. primary stress on the third syllable and a weaker one on the >> first. Stressing the last syllable seems unnatural to most speakers of >> English. It may actually render the name unrecognizable to them, forcing >> those who do know Russian to shift the stress to the penult when speaking >> English. Much the same thing happens with Vladivostok. English-speakers will >> generally place the stress on the penult. >> >> Kevin Windle, >> >> >> John Dunn >> Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) >> University of Glasgow, Scotland >> >> Address: >> Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 >> 40137 Bologna >> Italy >> Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 >> e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk >> johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it >> >> >> John Dunn >> Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) >> University of Glasgow, Scotland >> >> Address: >> Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 >> 40137 Bologna >> Italy >> Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 >> e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk >> johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Richard M. Robin, Ph.D. Director Russian Language Program The George Washington University Washington, DC 20052 202-994-7081 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Russkiy tekst v UTF-8 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From nilafri at YAHOO.COM Fri Jul 2 17:17:28 2010 From: nilafri at YAHOO.COM (Nila Friedberg) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:17:28 -0700 Subject: taking poll on pronunciation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Rich, The relevant issue with English stress placement, according to Chomsky and Halle (1968), is whether the syllable is heavy (i.e., a heavy syllable is a closed syllable or a syllable containing a phonologically long/tense vowel). In nouns the antepenultimate syllable is stressed if the penultimate syllable is short and open (as in MI-se-ry or PRI-so-ner); and otherwise stress falls on the penult, as in ve-RAN-da or ho-RI-zon (where -RAN- and -RI- are both heavy syllables). So perhaps the English stress rule may explain why Americans say "pi-ROZH-ki" in Russian ("ROZH" being a closed syllable). But since Russian has no phonologically long vowels, it is really hard to say why Americans say "GOR-ba-chev" (interpreting 'ba' as a light syllable) versus "sha-ra-PO-va" (interpreting 'po' as a heavy syllable). I think the transfer of the English stress rule into Russian is a really complicated issue, and what one needs to know here is how exactly Americans transfer the notion of English phonological length into Russian, where this category is not phonological. Nila ________________________________ From: Richard Robin To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Sent: Fri, July 2, 2010 8:39:53 AM Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] taking poll on pronunciation Specialists in English phonology will correct me, but isn't the English default stress on a four-syllable noun composed of open syllables on the penultimate? As in Manitoba Colorado propaganda panorama emphysema plus the assigned place of stress for most place names of native American origin, regardless of language of origin. Exceptions to this tendency, like amygdala and Kalamazoo, *sound** *like exceptions. So Sharapóva and Borodíno obey that rule. On the other hand, Americans have always had both stress and vowel problems with Russian names containing ё, probably, as Hugh McLean said, because of the transliteration, but also no doubt because word-final stress in nouns (as in -ёв last names) is so rare in English. So Khrúshchev was Khrushchóv only on the lips of President Kennedy and NBC's Chet Huntley. Gorbachev defaulted to initial stress, although a few talking heads insisted on Gorbáchev. Finally, I would add that the hardest vocabulary item for my own beginning students is the last name of our program's course coordinator, Shatalina, which students insist on rhyming with Catalina, even well into middle of first year. So how did Anna Karenina survive with her name intact? -Richard Robin On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Hugh McLean wrote: > John Dunn is doubtless right that the Casanova model is responsible for > SharapOva, though I wonder why such English models as intErrogate, > regUrgitate, infUriate are ignored. In any case, the mindless provincialism > of American TV sports announcers is especially noticeable during the > Wimbledon broadcasts. Yesterday we had Berdych consistently pronounced > burr-ditch by the American announcers and commentators, even though the > official referee was doing a very good job of bear-dikh, with an excellent > velar fricative for the Czech ch. > > Shame! Let's infuriate! > > Hugh McLean > >> As it happens, I have of late been contemplating the rules by which >> English speakers assign stress to unfamiliar Russian names. In the instance >> of Borodino, two rules would seem to be relevant. >> >> The first is that final stress is generally avoided. There are exceptions >> to this with some two-syllable names, particularly if they are >> transliterated according to French norms (as used to be the practice for >> passports and the like), but final stress does not appear to occur >> spontaneously with longer names. >> >> The second rule is that English prefers to avoid sequences of more than >> two unstressed syllables. With four-syllable names there are thus two >> options, and while it is my impression that the second syllable is the >> 'default' (if there is one), the actual assignment appears to depend on the >> shape of the word. I am sure that a previous correspondent is correct in >> suggesting that BoroDIno is prompted by Italian patterns such as ValenTIno, >> just as the pattern CasaNOva is probably responsible for stress assignments >> of the SharaPOva type. >> >> John Dunn. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kevin Windle >> To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >> Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 13:27:33 +1000 >> Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] taking poll on pronunciation >> >> In my experience as a Brit living in Australia, speakers in the UK and >> Australia will pronounce BorodINo with exactly the stress preferred in North >> America, i.e. primary stress on the third syllable and a weaker one on the >> first. Stressing the last syllable seems unnatural to most speakers of >> English. It may actually render the name unrecognizable to them, forcing >> those who do know Russian to shift the stress to the penult when speaking >> English. Much the same thing happens with Vladivostok. English-speakers will >> generally place the stress on the penult. >> >> Kevin Windle, >> >> >> John Dunn >> Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) >> University of Glasgow, Scotland >> >> Address: >> Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 >> 40137 Bologna >> Italy >> Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 >> e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk >> johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it >> >> >> John Dunn >> Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) >> University of Glasgow, Scotland >> >> Address: >> Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 >> 40137 Bologna >> Italy >> Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 >> e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk >> johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Richard M. Robin, Ph.D. Director Russian Language Program The George Washington University Washington, DC 20052 202-994-7081 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Russkiy tekst v UTF-8 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Fri Jul 2 17:57:30 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 13:57:30 -0400 Subject: taking poll on pronunciation In-Reply-To: <32353.18583.qm@web51508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Nila Friedberg wrote: > Dear Rich, > > The relevant issue with English stress placement, according to > Chomsky and Halle (1968), is whether the syllable is heavy (i.e., a > heavy syllable is a closed syllable or a syllable containing a > phonologically long/tense vowel). In nouns the antepenultimate > syllable is stressed if the penultimate syllable is short and open > (as in MI-se-ry or PRI-so-ner); and otherwise stress falls on the > penult, as in ve-RAN-da or ho-RI-zon (where -RAN- and -RI- are both > heavy syllables). This is a good model. Unfortunately, any treatment of English stress necessarily includes some circularity, because stress placement has historically altered vowel quality, and vowel quality has historically altered stress placement. Is it "ho.rí.zon" with "long i" due to stress in an open syllable (stress lengthens), or is the stress on the second syllable because of the vowel length (heavy syllables attract stress)? Assuming the source was an end-stressed French word, why don't we have "hó.ri.zon" /hō.rĭ.zŏn/? > So perhaps the English stress rule may explain why Americans say > "pi-ROZH-ki" in Russian ("ROZH" being a closed syllable). But since > Russian has no phonologically long vowels, it is really hard to say > why Americans say "GOR-ba-chev" (interpreting 'ba' as a light > syllable) versus "sha-ra-PO-va" (interpreting 'po' as a heavy > syllable). I think the transfer of the English stress rule into > Russian is a really complicated issue, and what one needs to know > here is how exactly Americans transfer the notion of English > phonological length into Russian, where this category is not > phonological. As a monolingual American classifying Russian vowels in terms of my native "length," I would assign /iyu/ to the "long" category and /eoa/ to the "short" category (unless I identified ы with my /ĭ/). Keeping in mind that monolinguals don't know or care a whit about Russian and just make guesses based on the spelling, we can make several educated guesses about these two names: 1) "Gór.ba.chev" has two heavy syllables, and the one in initial position (where many native words are stressed) is favored over the one in final position (where few native words are stressed). Even if the final syllable were given primary stress, a secondary stress would automatically fall on the initial syllable (two away from the primary), and there would then be strong pressure for retraction by reclassifying the secondary stress as primary and the primary stress as secondary. 2) "Sharapova" has only one vowel that "looks" long, namely the third one -- an "o" in an open syllable is generally long in English, notwithstanding exceptions like "domino" (where I would close the syllable by reassigning the /m/). In a word with one heavy syllable that also happens to be penultimate, the temptation to stress it is irresistible. It would never occur to an American to read the "po" here as /pə/ -- "o" rarely spells schwa in English, though of course every rule has exceptions ("Dəlóres," "Tərónto"). There is also a putative "pattern" that Slavic names in -ova are always stressed on the "o"; this may be a relic of the millions of Polish immigrants, all of whose names bore penultimate stress (Do Brits follow the same rule? If so, that would squash this conjecture). Americans don't know that Czech has fixed initial stress, Russian has movable stress, and Polish has fixed penultimate stress. They all look alike to us. This would also account for the treatment of "-(sk)aya." -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rrobin at GWU.EDU Fri Jul 2 17:49:07 2010 From: rrobin at GWU.EDU (Richard Robin) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 13:49:07 -0400 Subject: taking poll on pronunciation In-Reply-To: <4C2E159E.1020209@pbg-translations.com> Message-ID: Paul is, of course, right. Propaganda and emphasyma are not all CVCVCVCV. And strength/length and syllabicity play a huge role in English stress assignment. But the prevalence of four-syllable nouns with the pattern СV̀CVСV́CV is quite striking, even in nouns without some closed syllables (propaganda, Vlàdivóstok). But is it a matter of historical shortening or a combination of that plus vowel quality (strength/length) that are dictating the stress placement in four-syllable nouns or is the result of a rule that requires both syllable “shortening” (Great vowel shift) and secondary stress in the initial syllable of 1-2-3́-4 environments? We have plenty of adjectives and verbs with 1-2́-3-4 (‘proliferate’, ‘magnificent’) but nouns like ‘intelligence’ are rare (and in this case perhaps motivated by ‘intelligent’. Given the fact that Russian four-syllable words (nearly all nouns) come into English without length clues, as Nila Friedberg pointed out, I am suggesting that the default to the most common 4-syllable noun stress pattern that we have in the language. On the matter of Khrushchev, I remember that [krúščhev] as a less common variant of the [krúšhev] with the first syllable open. Does closed syllabicity have that much to do with attracting the stress either onto or away from the first syllable in two syllable English nouns? On Gorbáchev: John McLaughlin of the McGlaughlin Group was one I remember who insisted on [gorbáchev] or [gorbáchov] -Rich . Once again, a.mýg.da.la (antepenultimate stress > from Greek) is not CV.CV.CV.CV, and Kàl.a.ma.zóo usually wouldn't be. Your > claim, in the absence of supporting evidence, remains unproven. > > > On the other hand, Americans have always had both stress and vowel >> problems with Russian names containing ё, probably, as Hugh McLean >> said, because of the transliteration, but also no doubt because >> word-final stress in nouns (as in -ёв last names) is so rare in >> English. So Khrúshchev was Khrushchóv only on the lips of President >> Kennedy and NBC's Chet Huntley. Gorbachev defaulted to initial >> stress, although a few talking heads insisted on Gorbáchev. >> > > Another problem here, to which I alluded in a previous posting, is that > closed syllables tend to attract stress. Since English cannot begin a > syllable with /šč/ (/ʃʧ/), we must syllabify Khrush.chov, and that complex > first syllable, besides being initial and penultimate, will also attract > stress by dint of its complexity. > > I personally have /never/ heard Gorbáchev, only Górbachov and Gorbachóv and > the occasional Górbachev. Was that a typo? > > > Finally, I would add that the hardest vocabulary item for my own >> beginning students is the last name of our program's course >> coordinator, Shatalina, which students insist on rhyming with >> Catalina, even well into middle of first year. >> >> So how did Anna Karenina survive with her name intact? >> > > Only repetition can account for it. If we hear something often enough, it > becomes normal, no matter how weird it was to begin with. When I first moved > to Ohio back in the late 1970s, I encountered people using the "needs done" > construction (e.g., "the floor needs swept") for the first time in my life > and thought it not only ungrammatical, but foreign and so defective as to > reflect the speaker's illiteracy or incompetence (yes, the reaction was that > strong). After 15 years in Columbus, I got used to it and even occasionally > used it myself, to the consternation of my Eastern relatives and friends, > who thought I had contracted some disease and advised me to seek > professional help. > > -- > War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. > -- > Paul B. Gallagher > pbg translations, inc. > "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" > http://pbg-translations.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Richard M. Robin, Ph.D. Director Russian Language Program The George Washington University Washington, DC 20052 202-994-7081 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Russkiy tekst v UTF-8 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bidoshik at UNION.EDU Fri Jul 2 18:17:06 2010 From: bidoshik at UNION.EDU (Bidoshi, Kristin A.) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 14:17:06 -0400 Subject: Adjunct in Russian - Union College In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Adjunct in Russian Union College The Department of Modern Languages and Literatures at Union College announces an opening for an adjunct instructor position in Russian language beginning in fall 2010. The successful candidate will teach one second year Russian language course in fall term (Russian 200) and one second year language course in the spring term 2011 (Russian 202); it is anticipated that the Department will continue to require an adjunct in future years. Candidates must have native or near-native Russian language ability, training and/or experience in modern methods of foreign language pedagogy, experience teaching Russian language and familiarity with the American university system. Applicants should hold an MA or PhD in Russian. Applications should include a cover letter and CV with a list of references. Please forward application materials to Professor Kristin Bidoshi, Dean of Studies, 100 Science and Engineering Building, Union College, Schenectady, NY 12308. E-mail: bidoshik at union.edu . Revi! ew of applications will begin immediately and will continue until the position is filled. Union College is an equal opportunity employer and strongly committed to student and workforce diversity. Kristin Bidoshi Dean of Studies and Associate Professor of Russian Union College Science and Engineering Building 100 Schenectady, NY 12308 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bradleygorski at GMAIL.COM Fri Jul 2 18:22:24 2010 From: bradleygorski at GMAIL.COM (Bradley Gorski) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 20:22:24 +0200 Subject: taking poll on pronunciation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A thought: Anna Karenina's integrity might have been preserved by her first name, as the book's title is repeated more often than the text is read, making the seven-syllable collocation a single semantic unit. Sports stars (Sharapova) and professors (Shatalina) more often find themselves without their first names. Bradley Gorski On Jul 2, 2010, at 6:33 PM, Inna Caron wrote: > Richard Robin wrote: >> So how did Anna Karenina survive with her name intact? > > Funny you should ask that. In Bernard Rose's film (1997), Anna, > courtesy of Sophie Marceau, asks Vronsky in a jealous fit: "Then why > was it delivered by Princess Soro-KIna?" (stress on "i" as opposed > to the second "o"). > > Anyway, as the person responsible for the initial query I thank > everyone for confirming what I suspected from the beginning: a > general reader will be most comfortable with the pronunciation "Boro- > DIno." Good to know, and much easier to rhyme. > > IC > > ________________________________________ > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures > list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] on behalf of Richard Robin > [rrobin at GWU.EDU] > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 11:39 AM > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] taking poll on pronunciation > > Specialists in English phonology will correct me, but isn't the > English > default stress on a four-syllable noun composed of open syllables on > the > penultimate? As in > > Manitoba > Colorado > propaganda > panorama > emphysema > plus the assigned place of stress for most place names of native > American > origin, regardless of language of origin. > > Exceptions to this tendency, like amygdala and Kalamazoo, *sound** > *like > exceptions. So Sharapóva and Borodíno obey that rule. > > On the other hand, Americans have always had both stress and vowel > problems > with Russian names containing ё, probably, as Hugh McLean said, beca > use of > the transliteration, but also no doubt because word-final stress in > nouns > (as in -ёв last names) is so rare in English. So Khrúshchev was > Khrushchóv > only on the lips of President Kennedy and NBC's Chet Huntley. > Gorbachev > defaulted to initial stress, although a few talking heads insisted on > Gorbáchev. > > Finally, I would add that the hardest vocabulary item for my own > beginning > students is the last name of our program's course coordinator, > Shatalina, > which students insist on rhyming with Catalina, even well into > middle of > first year. > > So how did Anna Karenina survive with her name intact? > > -Richard Robin > > On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Hugh McLean > wrote: > >> John Dunn is doubtless right that the Casanova model is responsible >> for >> SharapOva, though I wonder why such English models as intErrogate, >> regUrgitate, infUriate are ignored. In any case, the mindless >> provincialism >> of American TV sports announcers is especially noticeable during the >> Wimbledon broadcasts. Yesterday we had Berdych consistently >> pronounced >> burr-ditch by the American announcers and commentators, even though >> the >> official referee was doing a very good job of bear-dikh, with an >> excellent >> velar fricative for the Czech ch. >> >> Shame! Let's infuriate! >> >> Hugh McLean >> >>> As it happens, I have of late been contemplating the rules by which >>> English speakers assign stress to unfamiliar Russian names. In >>> the instance >>> of Borodino, two rules would seem to be relevant. >>> >>> The first is that final stress is generally avoided. There are >>> exceptions >>> to this with some two-syllable names, particularly if they are >>> transliterated according to French norms (as used to be the >>> practice for >>> passports and the like), but final stress does not appear to occur >>> spontaneously with longer names. >>> >>> The second rule is that English prefers to avoid sequences of more >>> than >>> two unstressed syllables. With four-syllable names there are thus >>> two >>> options, and while it is my impression that the second syllable is >>> the >>> 'default' (if there is one), the actual assignment appears to >>> depend on the >>> shape of the word. I am sure that a previous correspondent is >>> correct in >>> suggesting that BoroDIno is prompted by Italian patterns such as >>> ValenTIno, >>> just as the pattern CasaNOva is probably responsible for stress >>> assignments >>> of the SharaPOva type. >>> >>> John Dunn. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kevin Windle >>> To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >>> Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 13:27:33 +1000 >>> Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] taking poll on pronunciation >>> >>> In my experience as a Brit living in Australia, speakers in the UK >>> and >>> Australia will pronounce BorodINo with exactly the stress >>> preferred in North >>> America, i.e. primary stress on the third syllable and a weaker >>> one on the >>> first. Stressing the last syllable seems unnatural to most >>> speakers of >>> English. It may actually render the name unrecognizable to them, >>> forcing >>> those who do know Russian to shift the stress to the penult when >>> speaking >>> English. Much the same thing happens with Vladivostok. English- >>> speakers will >>> generally place the stress on the penult. >>> >>> Kevin Windle, >>> >>> >>> John Dunn >>> Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) >>> University of Glasgow, Scotland >>> >>> Address: >>> Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 >>> 40137 Bologna >>> Italy >>> Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 >>> e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk >>> johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it >>> >>> >>> John Dunn >>> Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) >>> University of Glasgow, Scotland >>> >>> Address: >>> Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 >>> 40137 Bologna >>> Italy >>> Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 >>> e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk >>> johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it >>> >>> --- >>> --- >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your >>> subscription >>> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface >>> at: >>> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >>> --- >>> --- >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >> >> --- >> --- >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your >> subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> --- >> --- >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > > > -- > Richard M. Robin, Ph.D. > Director Russian Language Program > The George Washington University > Washington, DC 20052 > 202-994-7081 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Russkiy tekst v UTF-8 > > --- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > --- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > --- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Ralph.Cleminson at PORT.AC.UK Fri Jul 2 18:29:42 2010 From: Ralph.Cleminson at PORT.AC.UK (Ralph Cleminson) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 19:29:42 +0100 Subject: taking poll on pronunciation Message-ID: >Once again, a.mýg.da.la (antepenultimate stress from Greek) is not Antepenultimate stress from Latin (where it is regular when the last two syllables are short), which was the intermediary for many Greek loan-words in English. Greek ἀμυγδαλῆ has final stress. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Ralph.Cleminson at PORT.AC.UK Fri Jul 2 19:05:49 2010 From: Ralph.Cleminson at PORT.AC.UK (Ralph Cleminson) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 20:05:49 +0100 Subject: Translation queries: Ipatyevskaya letopis, 1184 Message-ID: Aha! I can't open the link below, but I can read "vasilii-tati6ev" in the URL, which gives the clue to the origin of the non-Hypatian material, namely V. N. Tatiščev's "История российская". Notoriously, this contains a lot of material that is not to be found in the primary sources, and the question is whether he found it in documents that were still available to him, working in the 18th century, but are no longer extant, or whether he made it up. It appears that the creator of the document that this link is supposed to lead to also had difficulty with his sources. The "самострельные туги" are evidently a corruption of the "лоуци тоузи самострѣлнии" of the chronicle, which in Modern Russian would be "луки тугие самострельные", and are the antecedent of the pronoun, which should therefore be сими. The only way out of the translation difficulty, therefore, is to consult an actual copy of Tatiščev's history (not some garbled internet version), and cite what he says -- with the usual caveat regarding "Tatiščev's material". Incidentally, à propos of the original post, "Part of my confusion here lies in the use of a bow, which should not be able to propel a liquid." Indeed: the chronicle does not say that it could. It says that Končak had a man who could shoot "living fire" AND he had ballistae, if that is what they were. (Experts on mediaeval warfare may care to offer an opinion.) >>> "Paul B. Gallagher" 02/07/10 5:53 PM >>> I did find another modern translation that had a somewhat different version of this excerpt: 6693 (1185). Война половцев. Кончак кн. Стреляние огнем. Самострелы великие. Хорол р. Коварство половцев. Половцы побеждены. Безбожный и свирепый Кончак, князь половецкий, собрав войско великое, пошел на пределы русские, желая все города попленить и разорить, имея с собою мужа, умеющего стрелять огнем и зажигать грады, у коего были самострельные туги столь великие, что едва 8 человек могли натягивать, и каждый укреплен был на возу великом. Сим мог бросать каменья в средину града подъем человеку и для метания огня имел приспособление особое, небольшое, но весьма хитро сделанное. Here I'm at a loss to understand the word "туги," but even if I could, I would still have to wait for the author's correction. I assume "сим" is a typo for "сам" = "тот, он" and not for "сий," but I would render all of these simply as "he" so it doesn't matter. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Ralph.Cleminson at PORT.AC.UK Sat Jul 3 07:04:17 2010 From: Ralph.Cleminson at PORT.AC.UK (Ralph Cleminson) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 08:04:17 +0100 Subject: Translation queries: Ipatyevskaya letopis, 1184 Message-ID: Here we are: Исторія Россійская съ самыхъ древнѣйшихъ временъ, неусыпными трудами черезъ тритцать лѣтъ собранная и описанная Покойнымъ Тайнымъ Совѣтникомъ и Астраханскимъ Губернаторомъ, Васильемъ Никитичемъ Татищевымъ. (What a wonderful title!) Книга третія. Напечатана при Императорскомъ Московскомъ Университетѣ 1774 года. On p.259 we read: 6693, 1185. Безбожный и свирѣпый Кончакъ Князь Половецкїй собравъ войско великое, пошелъ на предѣлы Рускїе, хотя всѣ грады поплѣнить и разорить, имѣя съ собою мужа умѣющаго стрѣлять огнемъ, и зажигать грады, у коего были самострѣльные туги такъ великїе, что едва 8 человѣкъ могли натягивать, и укрѣпленъ былъ на возу великомъ. Симъ онъ могъ бросать каменья въ середину града, въ подъемъ человѣку, и для метанїя огня имѣлъ особый малѣйшїй, но вельми хитро сдѣланный. >From this we conclude: (a) that we are indeed dealing with "Татищевские известия" and should exercise appropriate caution (unless anyone can produce an earlier source); (b) that Tatiščev (or his editors or printers -- the book was published long after his death, and he can't be held responsible for everything in it) was responsible for the "туги" (but would someone like to look it up in Sreznevskij, just in case?), for the misread numeral, and for the switch from plural to singular in mid-sentence; (c) that whoever produced the text that gave rise to the original query was even less scrupulous in his treatment of his sources than Tatiščev. The original can be read at: http://imwerden.de/cat/modules.php?name=books&pa=showbook&pid=2294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jwilson at SRAS.ORG Sat Jul 3 08:44:45 2010 From: jwilson at SRAS.ORG (Josh Wilson) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 12:44:45 +0400 Subject: Call for Papers: To STUDENTS of all Levels Message-ID: Dear SEELANGers, The School of Russian and Asian Studies is proud to say: VESTNIK, the Journal of Russian and Asian Studies, is announcing its return to the academic world. VESTNIK, the world's first online journal focused on showcasing student research on Eurasia, has been on hiatus for more than two years. However, its editorial staff has again assembled to continue this fascinating and much-needed work. We now welcome and invite papers written by undergraduates, graduates, and postgraduates. Research on any subject is accepted - politics, literature, art, history, linguistics, etc. If you have written solid research in the last year, send it to jwilson at sras.org Deadline for submissions for the next issue: Aug 15, 2010 VESTNIK has been created by The School of Russian and Asian Studies in an effort to effectively encourage the study of Russia and those states formerly a part of the Soviet Union. VESTNIK is a scholarly journal which publishes the best in undergraduate and graduate research on any subject of relevance to that geographic region. VESTNIK is designed to showcase exceptional work by students of all levels, subjects, and backgrounds who are researching and writing about Russia or those states formerly a part of the Soviet Union. If you are interested in submitting material for future issues, have students that should be encouraged to publish, or would like to participate on our editorial staff, contact us at jwilson at sras.org. All subjects related to Russia and the FSU will be considered. Submitted papers should include, at the top of the first page, the applicant's name, major, class standing, and a brief description of his/her future plans. Submissions should not be more than 25 pages (longer submission will be accepted, but may be edited for length), should be in 12-point TNR type with one-inch margins, and in electronic format (MS Word). Since we are dealing with diverse subjects, we will accept MLA, ALA and Chicago formats. You can find past issues of Vestnik, as well as more information about the publication, here: http://www.sras.org/vestnik . For a free subscription to VESTNIK, send an email to jwilson at sras.org with the words "Subscribe VESTNIK" in the title or body of the letter. Sincerely, Josh Wilson Assistant Director The School of Russian and Asian Studies Editor in Chief Vestnik, The Journal of Russian and Asian Studies SRAS.org jwilson at sras.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU Sat Jul 3 16:44:06 2010 From: hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU (Hugh McLean) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 09:44:06 -0700 Subject: taking poll on pronunciation In-Reply-To: <3B7DCC4D-0CC4-4D09-82B7-E79A8FFC09CA@gmail.com> Message-ID: Anna's feminine surname even miraculously survived an assault by Vladimir Nabokov, who insisted on Anna Karenin and tried to establish a rule that only ballerinas had the right to use their feminine surnames in Western countries.His wife, of course, was Vera Nabokov, not Nabokova, with an accent aigu over the e in Vera, because she didn't like the pronunciation Veera. Even with that accent she still didn't get the palatalized v. English biographies of Tolstoy's wife can't very well call her Countess Tolstaya (despite Tat'yana's example); who would know who that was? Whether they should call her Sonya or not is another issue, perhaps stressful, but not about stress. > A thought: Anna Karenina's integrity might have been preserved by her > first name, as the book's title is repeated more often than the text > is read, making the seven-syllable collocation a single semantic unit. > Sports stars (Sharapova) and professors (Shatalina) more often find > themselves without their first names. > > Bradley Gorski > > On Jul 2, 2010, at 6:33 PM, Inna Caron > wrote: > >> Richard Robin wrote: >>> So how did Anna Karenina survive with her name intact? >> >> Funny you should ask that. In Bernard Rose's film (1997), Anna, >> courtesy of Sophie Marceau, asks Vronsky in a jealous fit: "Then why >> was it delivered by Princess Soro-KIna?" (stress on "i" as opposed to >> the second "o"). >> >> Anyway, as the person responsible for the initial query I thank >> everyone for confirming what I suspected from the beginning: a >> general reader will be most comfortable with the pronunciation >> "Boro-DIno." Good to know, and much easier to rhyme. >> >> IC >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list >> [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] on behalf of Richard Robin [rrobin at GWU.EDU] >> Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 11:39 AM >> To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >> Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] taking poll on pronunciation >> >> Specialists in English phonology will correct me, but isn't the English >> default stress on a four-syllable noun composed of open syllables on the >> penultimate? As in >> >> Manitoba >> Colorado >> propaganda >> panorama >> emphysema >> plus the assigned place of stress for most place names of native >> American >> origin, regardless of language of origin. >> >> Exceptions to this tendency, like amygdala and Kalamazoo, *sound** *like >> exceptions. So Sharapóva and Borodíno obey that rule. >> >> On the other hand, Americans have always had both stress and vowel >> problems >> with Russian names containing ё, probably, as Hugh McLean said, >> because of >> the transliteration, but also no doubt because word-final stress in >> nouns >> (as in -ёв last names) is so rare in English. So Khrúshchev was >> Khrushchóv >> only on the lips of President Kennedy and NBC's Chet Huntley. Gorbachev >> defaulted to initial stress, although a few talking heads insisted on >> Gorbáchev. >> >> Finally, I would add that the hardest vocabulary item for my own >> beginning >> students is the last name of our program's course coordinator, >> Shatalina, >> which students insist on rhyming with Catalina, even well into middle of >> first year. >> >> So how did Anna Karenina survive with her name intact? >> >> -Richard Robin >> >> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Hugh McLean >> wrote: >> >>> John Dunn is doubtless right that the Casanova model is responsible for >>> SharapOva, though I wonder why such English models as intErrogate, >>> regUrgitate, infUriate are ignored. In any case, the mindless >>> provincialism >>> of American TV sports announcers is especially noticeable during the >>> Wimbledon broadcasts. Yesterday we had Berdych consistently pronounced >>> burr-ditch by the American announcers and commentators, even though the >>> official referee was doing a very good job of bear-dikh, with an >>> excellent >>> velar fricative for the Czech ch. >>> >>> Shame! Let's infuriate! >>> >>> Hugh McLean >>> >>>> As it happens, I have of late been contemplating the rules by which >>>> English speakers assign stress to unfamiliar Russian names. In the >>>> instance >>>> of Borodino, two rules would seem to be relevant. >>>> >>>> The first is that final stress is generally avoided. There are >>>> exceptions >>>> to this with some two-syllable names, particularly if they are >>>> transliterated according to French norms (as used to be the >>>> practice for >>>> passports and the like), but final stress does not appear to occur >>>> spontaneously with longer names. >>>> >>>> The second rule is that English prefers to avoid sequences of more >>>> than >>>> two unstressed syllables. With four-syllable names there are thus two >>>> options, and while it is my impression that the second syllable is the >>>> 'default' (if there is one), the actual assignment appears to >>>> depend on the >>>> shape of the word. I am sure that a previous correspondent is >>>> correct in >>>> suggesting that BoroDIno is prompted by Italian patterns such as >>>> ValenTIno, >>>> just as the pattern CasaNOva is probably responsible for stress >>>> assignments >>>> of the SharaPOva type. >>>> >>>> John Dunn. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Kevin Windle >>>> To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >>>> Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 13:27:33 +1000 >>>> Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] taking poll on pronunciation >>>> >>>> In my experience as a Brit living in Australia, speakers in the UK and >>>> Australia will pronounce BorodINo with exactly the stress preferred >>>> in North >>>> America, i.e. primary stress on the third syllable and a weaker one >>>> on the >>>> first. Stressing the last syllable seems unnatural to most speakers of >>>> English. It may actually render the name unrecognizable to them, >>>> forcing >>>> those who do know Russian to shift the stress to the penult when >>>> speaking >>>> English. Much the same thing happens with Vladivostok. >>>> English-speakers will >>>> generally place the stress on the penult. >>>> >>>> Kevin Windle, >>>> >>>> >>>> John Dunn >>>> Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) >>>> University of Glasgow, Scotland >>>> >>>> Address: >>>> Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 >>>> 40137 Bologna >>>> Italy >>>> Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 >>>> e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk >>>> johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it >>>> >>>> >>>> John Dunn >>>> Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) >>>> University of Glasgow, Scotland >>>> >>>> Address: >>>> Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 >>>> 40137 Bologna >>>> Italy >>>> Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 >>>> e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk >>>> johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >>>> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >>>> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >>> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >>> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Richard M. Robin, Ph.D. >> Director Russian Language Program >> The George Washington University >> Washington, DC 20052 >> 202-994-7081 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Russkiy tekst v UTF-8 >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU Sat Jul 3 18:06:57 2010 From: mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU (Melissa Smith) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 14:06:57 -0400 Subject: taking poll on pronunciation Message-ID: Today, when watching the Wimbledon women's tennis final, I didn't understand who Serena William's opponent was until I saw it written: Zvonareva. The initial consonant cluster is impossible for English speakers. My greatest shock, however, came a few years ago when, listening to a Metropolitan Opera broadcast of "Boris Godunov," and heard our colleague Harlow Robinson pronounce the composer's name as MoussOR(G)sky. Now I tend to "correct" the Russian-like pronunciations that escape my lips with a "normative" American-like version (always prefaced by a necessarily pedantic, "you probably have heard it pronounced as..."). Melissa Smith On 7/3/10 12:44 PM, Hugh McLean wrote: > Anna's feminine surname even miraculously survived an assault by > Vladimir Nabokov, who insisted on Anna Karenin and tried to establish a > rule that only ballerinas had the right to use their feminine surnames > in Western countries.His wife, of course, was Vera Nabokov, not > Nabokova, with an accent aigu over the e in Vera, because she didn't > like the pronunciation Veera. Even with that accent she still didn't get > the palatalized v. English biographies of Tolstoy's wife can't very well > call her Countess Tolstaya (despite Tat'yana's example); who would know > who that was? Whether they should call her Sonya or not is another > issue, perhaps stressful, but not about stress. > > A thought: Anna Karenina's integrity might have been preserved by her > > first name, as the book's title is repeated more often than the text > > is read, making the seven-syllable collocation a single semantic unit. > > Sports stars (Sharapova) and professors (Shatalina) more often find > > themselves without their first names. > > > > Bradley Gorski > > > > On Jul 2, 2010, at 6:33 PM, Inna Caron > > wrote: > > > >> Richard Robin wrote: > >>> So how did Anna Karenina survive with her name intact? > >> > >> Funny you should ask that. In Bernard Rose's film (1997), Anna, > >> courtesy of Sophie Marceau, asks Vronsky in a jealous fit: "Then why > >> was it delivered by Princess Soro-KIna?" (stress on "i" as opposed to > >> the second "o"). > >> > >> Anyway, as the person responsible for the initial query I thank > >> everyone for confirming what I suspected from the beginning: a > >> general reader will be most comfortable with the pronunciation > >> "Boro-DIno." Good to know, and much easier to rhyme. > >> > >> IC > >> > >> ________________________________________ > >> From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list > >> [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] on behalf of Richard Robin [rrobin at GWU.EDU] > >> Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 11:39 AM > >> To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > >> Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] taking poll on pronunciation > >> > >> Specialists in English phonology will correct me, but isn't the English > >> default stress on a four-syllable noun composed of open syllables on the > >> penultimate? As in > >> > >> Manitoba > >> Colorado > >> propaganda > >> panorama > >> emphysema > >> plus the assigned place of stress for most place names of native > >> American > >> origin, regardless of language of origin. > >> > >> Exceptions to this tendency, like amygdala and Kalamazoo, *sound** *like > >> exceptions. So Sharapóva and Borodíno obey that rule. > >> > >> On the other hand, Americans have always had both stress and vowel > >> problems > >> with Russian names containing ё, probably, as Hugh McLean said, > >> because of > >> the transliteration, but also no doubt because word-final stress in > >> nouns > >> (as in -ёв last names) is so rare in English. So Khrúshchev was > >> Khrushchóv > >> only on the lips of President Kennedy and NBC's Chet Huntley. Gorbachev > >> defaulted to initial stress, although a few talking heads insisted on > >> Gorbáchev. > >> > >> Finally, I would add that the hardest vocabulary item for my own > >> beginning > >> students is the last name of our program's course coordinator, > >> Shatalina, > >> which students insist on rhyming with Catalina, even well into middle of > >> first year. > >> > >> So how did Anna Karenina survive with her name intact? > >> > >> -Richard Robin > >> > >> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Hugh McLean > >> wrote: > >> > >>> John Dunn is doubtless right that the Casanova model is responsible for > >>> SharapOva, though I wonder why such English models as intErrogate, > >>> regUrgitate, infUriate are ignored. In any case, the mindless > >>> provincialism > >>> of American TV sports announcers is especially noticeable during the > >>> Wimbledon broadcasts. Yesterday we had Berdych consistently pronounced > >>> burr-ditch by the American announcers and commentators, even though the > >>> official referee was doing a very good job of bear-dikh, with an > >>> excellent > >>> velar fricative for the Czech ch. > >>> > >>> Shame! Let's infuriate! > >>> > >>> Hugh McLean > >>> > >>>> As it happens, I have of late been contemplating the rules by which > >>>> English speakers assign stress to unfamiliar Russian names. In the > >>>> instance > >>>> of Borodino, two rules would seem to be relevant. > >>>> > >>>> The first is that final stress is generally avoided. There are > >>>> exceptions > >>>> to this with some two-syllable names, particularly if they are > >>>> transliterated according to French norms (as used to be the > >>>> practice for > >>>> passports and the like), but final stress does not appear to occur > >>>> spontaneously with longer names. > >>>> > >>>> The second rule is that English prefers to avoid sequences of more > >>>> than > >>>> two unstressed syllables. With four-syllable names there are thus two > >>>> options, and while it is my impression that the second syllable is the > >>>> 'default' (if there is one), the actual assignment appears to > >>>> depend on the > >>>> shape of the word. I am sure that a previous correspondent is > >>>> correct in > >>>> suggesting that BoroDIno is prompted by Italian patterns such as > >>>> ValenTIno, > >>>> just as the pattern CasaNOva is probably responsible for stress > >>>> assignments > >>>> of the SharaPOva type. > >>>> > >>>> John Dunn. > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Kevin Windle > >>>> To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > >>>> Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 13:27:33 +1000 > >>>> Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] taking poll on pronunciation > >>>> > >>>> In my experience as a Brit living in Australia, speakers in the UK and > >>>> Australia will pronounce BorodINo with exactly the stress preferred > >>>> in North > >>>> America, i.e. primary stress on the third syllable and a weaker one > >>>> on the > >>>> first. Stressing the last syllable seems unnatural to most speakers of > >>>> English. It may actually render the name unrecognizable to them, > >>>> forcing > >>>> those who do know Russian to shift the stress to the penult when > >>>> speaking > >>>> English. Much the same thing happens with Vladivostok. > >>>> English-speakers will > >>>> generally place the stress on the penult. > >>>> > >>>> Kevin Windle, > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> John Dunn > >>>> Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) > >>>> University of Glasgow, Scotland > >>>> > >>>> Address: > >>>> Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 > >>>> 40137 Bologna > >>>> Italy > >>>> Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 > >>>> e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk > >>>> johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> John Dunn > >>>> Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) > >>>> University of Glasgow, Scotland > >>>> > >>>> Address: > >>>> Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 > >>>> 40137 Bologna > >>>> Italy > >>>> Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 > >>>> e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk > >>>> johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > >>>> > >>>> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > >>>> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > >>>> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > >>> > >>> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > >>> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > >>> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Richard M. Robin, Ph.D. > >> Director Russian Language Program > >> The George Washington University > >> Washington, DC 20052 > >> 202-994-7081 > >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >> Russkiy tekst v UTF-8 > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > >> > >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > >> > >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------ Melissa T. Smith, Professor Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures Youngstown State University Youngstown, OH 44555 Tel: (330)941-3462 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sergeytlnv at GMAIL.COM Sat Jul 3 19:35:13 2010 From: sergeytlnv at GMAIL.COM (serge tyuli) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 20:35:13 +0100 Subject: taking poll on pronunciation In-Reply-To: <12244268.1278180417559.JavaMail.mtsmith02@ysu.edu> Message-ID: Can you stop, all of you. You all seem to have a nederzhanie. On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 7:06 PM, Melissa Smith wrote: > Today, when watching the Wimbledon women's tennis final, I didn't > understand who Serena William's opponent was until I saw it written: > Zvonareva. The initial consonant cluster is impossible for English > speakers. My greatest shock, however, came a few years ago when, > listening to a Metropolitan Opera broadcast of "Boris Godunov," and > heard our colleague Harlow Robinson pronounce the composer's name as > MoussOR(G)sky. Now I tend to "correct" the Russian-like pronunciations > that escape my lips with a "normative" American-like version (always > prefaced by a necessarily pedantic, "you probably have heard it > pronounced as..."). > > Melissa Smith > > On 7/3/10 12:44 PM, Hugh McLean wrote: > > Anna's feminine surname even miraculously survived an assault by > > Vladimir Nabokov, who insisted on Anna Karenin and tried to establish > a > > rule that only ballerinas had the right to use their feminine surnames > > in Western countries.His wife, of course, was Vera Nabokov, not > > Nabokova, with an accent aigu over the e in Vera, because she didn't > > like the pronunciation Veera. Even with that accent she still didn't > get > > the palatalized v. English biographies of Tolstoy's wife can't very > well > > call her Countess Tolstaya (despite Tat'yana's example); who would > know > > who that was? Whether they should call her Sonya or not is another > > issue, perhaps stressful, but not about stress. > > > A thought: Anna Karenina's integrity might have been preserved by > her > > > first name, as the book's title is repeated more often than the text > > > is read, making the seven-syllable collocation a single semantic > unit. > > > Sports stars (Sharapova) and professors (Shatalina) more often find > > > themselves without their first names. > > > > > > Bradley Gorski > > > > > > On Jul 2, 2010, at 6:33 PM, Inna Caron > > > wrote: > > > > > >> Richard Robin wrote: > > >>> So how did Anna Karenina survive with her name intact? > > >> > > >> Funny you should ask that. In Bernard Rose's film (1997), Anna, > > >> courtesy of Sophie Marceau, asks Vronsky in a jealous fit: "Then > why > > >> was it delivered by Princess Soro-KIna?" (stress on "i" as opposed > to > > >> the second "o"). > > >> > > >> Anyway, as the person responsible for the initial query I thank > > >> everyone for confirming what I suspected from the beginning: a > > >> general reader will be most comfortable with the pronunciation > > >> "Boro-DIno." Good to know, and much easier to rhyme. > > >> > > >> IC > > >> > > >> ________________________________________ > > >> From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures > list > > >> [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] on behalf of Richard Robin [rrobin at GWU.EDU] > > >> Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 11:39 AM > > >> To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > >> Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] taking poll on pronunciation > > >> > > >> Specialists in English phonology will correct me, but isn't the > English > > >> default stress on a four-syllable noun composed of open syllables > on the > > >> penultimate? As in > > >> > > >> Manitoba > > >> Colorado > > >> propaganda > > >> panorama > > >> emphysema > > >> plus the assigned place of stress for most place names of native > > >> American > > >> origin, regardless of language of origin. > > >> > > >> Exceptions to this tendency, like amygdala and Kalamazoo, *sound** > *like > > >> exceptions. So Sharapóva and Borodíno obey that rule. > > >> > > >> On the other hand, Americans have always had both stress and vowel > > >> problems > > >> with Russian names containing ё, probably, as Hugh McLean said, > > >> because of > > >> the transliteration, but also no doubt because word-final stress in > > >> nouns > > >> (as in -ёв last names) is so rare in English. So Khrúshchev was > > >> Khrushchóv > > >> only on the lips of President Kennedy and NBC's Chet Huntley. > Gorbachev > > >> defaulted to initial stress, although a few talking heads insisted > on > > >> Gorbáchev. > > >> > > >> Finally, I would add that the hardest vocabulary item for my own > > >> beginning > > >> students is the last name of our program's course coordinator, > > >> Shatalina, > > >> which students insist on rhyming with Catalina, even well into > middle of > > >> first year. > > >> > > >> So how did Anna Karenina survive with her name intact? > > >> > > >> -Richard Robin > > >> > > >> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Hugh McLean > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >>> John Dunn is doubtless right that the Casanova model is > responsible for > > >>> SharapOva, though I wonder why such English models as intErrogate, > > >>> regUrgitate, infUriate are ignored. In any case, the mindless > > >>> provincialism > > >>> of American TV sports announcers is especially noticeable during > the > > >>> Wimbledon broadcasts. Yesterday we had Berdych consistently > pronounced > > >>> burr-ditch by the American announcers and commentators, even > though the > > >>> official referee was doing a very good job of bear-dikh, with an > > >>> excellent > > >>> velar fricative for the Czech ch. > > >>> > > >>> Shame! Let's infuriate! > > >>> > > >>> Hugh McLean > > >>> > > >>>> As it happens, I have of late been contemplating the rules by > which > > >>>> English speakers assign stress to unfamiliar Russian names. In > the > > >>>> instance > > >>>> of Borodino, two rules would seem to be relevant. > > >>>> > > >>>> The first is that final stress is generally avoided. There are > > >>>> exceptions > > >>>> to this with some two-syllable names, particularly if they are > > >>>> transliterated according to French norms (as used to be the > > >>>> practice for > > >>>> passports and the like), but final stress does not appear to occur > > >>>> spontaneously with longer names. > > >>>> > > >>>> The second rule is that English prefers to avoid sequences of > more > > >>>> than > > >>>> two unstressed syllables. With four-syllable names there are > thus two > > >>>> options, and while it is my impression that the second syllable > is the > > >>>> 'default' (if there is one), the actual assignment appears to > > >>>> depend on the > > >>>> shape of the word. I am sure that a previous correspondent is > > >>>> correct in > > >>>> suggesting that BoroDIno is prompted by Italian patterns such as > > >>>> ValenTIno, > > >>>> just as the pattern CasaNOva is probably responsible for stress > > >>>> assignments > > >>>> of the SharaPOva type. > > >>>> > > >>>> John Dunn. > > >>>> > > >>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>> From: Kevin Windle > > >>>> To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > >>>> Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 13:27:33 +1000 > > >>>> Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] taking poll on pronunciation > > >>>> > > >>>> In my experience as a Brit living in Australia, speakers in the > UK and > > >>>> Australia will pronounce BorodINo with exactly the stress > preferred > > >>>> in North > > >>>> America, i.e. primary stress on the third syllable and a weaker > one > > >>>> on the > > >>>> first. Stressing the last syllable seems unnatural to most > speakers of > > >>>> English. It may actually render the name unrecognizable to them, > > >>>> forcing > > >>>> those who do know Russian to shift the stress to the penult when > > >>>> speaking > > >>>> English. Much the same thing happens with Vladivostok. > > >>>> English-speakers will > > >>>> generally place the stress on the penult. > > >>>> > > >>>> Kevin Windle, > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> John Dunn > > >>>> Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) > > >>>> University of Glasgow, Scotland > > >>>> > > >>>> Address: > > >>>> Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 > > >>>> 40137 Bologna > > >>>> Italy > > >>>> Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 > > >>>> e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk > > >>>> johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> John Dunn > > >>>> Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) > > >>>> University of Glasgow, Scotland > > >>>> > > >>>> Address: > > >>>> Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 > > >>>> 40137 Bologna > > >>>> Italy > > >>>> Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 > > >>>> e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk > > >>>> johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it > > >>>> > > >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > >>>> > > >>>> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription > > >>>> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface > at: > > >>>> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > >>> > > >>> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription > > >>> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface > at: > > >>> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Richard M. Robin, Ph.D. > > >> Director Russian Language Program > > >> The George Washington University > > >> Washington, DC 20052 > > >> 202-994-7081 > > >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > >> Russkiy tekst v UTF-8 > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > >> > > >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription > > >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface > at: > > >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > >> > > >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription > > >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface > at: > > >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription > > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface > at: > > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > > ------------------------------------ > > Melissa T. Smith, Professor > Department of Foreign Languages and > Literatures > Youngstown State University > Youngstown, OH 44555 > Tel: (330)941-3462 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pstock at brandeis.edu Sat Jul 3 22:34:46 2010 From: pstock at brandeis.edu (David Powelstock) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 18:34:46 -0400 Subject: taking poll on pronunciation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mr. Tyuli: talk about nederzahnie! Your domineering and corrosive tone is utterly inappropriate in this forum. You can delete messages of no interest to you, or unsubscribe if you don't like the list. But you will not be welcome here if you bully its members. David Powelstock On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 3:35 PM, serge tyuli wrote: Can you stop, all of you. You all seem to have a nederzhanie. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Sat Jul 3 23:24:22 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 19:24:22 -0400 Subject: Translation queries: Ipatyevskaya letopis, 1184 In-Reply-To: <4C2E469E020000420008B770@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk> Message-ID: Ralph Cleminson wrote: > Aha! I can't open the link below, If you copy/paste everything between the angle brackets (but excluding the brackets), I think you'll find it works fine -- unless, of course, Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 7.0.3 is one of the very few email programs that disrespects angle brackets and insists on inserting a space or other character in the middle to split it between two lines. In that case, you will have to reassemble the two pieces. > but I can read "vasilii-tati6ev" in the URL, which gives the clue to > the origin of the non-Hypatian material, namely V. N. Tatiščev's > "История российская". Notoriously, this contains a lot of material > that is not to be found in the primary sources, and the question is > whether he found it in documents that were still available to him, > working in the 18th century, but are no longer extant, or whether he > made it up. Your recognition is correct, and I thank you for the additional background on the source. > It appears that the creator of the document that this link is > supposed to lead to also had difficulty with his sources. The > "самострельные туги" are evidently a corruption of the "лоуци тоузи > самострѣлнии" of the chronicle, which in Modern Russian would be > "луки тугие самострельные", and are the antecedent of the pronoun, > which should therefore be сими. Aha! So the bows were throwing rocks, not living fire. OK. > The only way out of the translation difficulty, therefore, is to > consult an actual copy of Tatiščev's history (not some garbled > internet version), and cite what he says -- with the usual caveat > regarding "Tatiščev's material". Provided, of course, that our author, after careful consideration of the issues raised in this forum, decides that this is the best source to use. I also have one more paragraph, all of which I can follow but the last word of the quote: Крещение Руси (988-989 гг.) Константинопольскими патриархами скорее всего не обошлось без договоренности о праве на использование новообращенными "греческого огня". Когда камские булгары захватили древний русский город Устюг, великий князь Владимирский Георгий отправил своего брата Святослава с сильным ополчением обуздать захватчиков. В 1219 году русские атаковали город камских булгар Ошель: «... а наперед шли пешцы с огнем и с топорами, а за ними стрельцы... ко граду приступиша, отовсюду зажгоша его и бысть буря и дым велик на сих потяну...», сообщает летописец. Can anyone tell me what this "потяну" is? MTIA -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ameliede at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Jul 4 04:34:25 2010 From: ameliede at EARTHLINK.NET (J F Levin) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 21:34:25 -0700 Subject: taking poll on pronunciation In-Reply-To: <4C2F68D6.6090302@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: The late great archeologist, and my Lithuanian teacher, Marija Gimbutas, should, of course, have been Marija Gimbutiene. The masculine suffix seems even stranger in Lithuanian. After all, in Russian indeclinable surnames are not rare. Jules Levin ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK Sun Jul 4 09:45:39 2010 From: Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK (Alexandra Smith) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 10:45:39 +0100 Subject: Ivan Tolstoy on the history of publication of Message-ID: --------------------------- Alexandra Smith (PhD, University of London) Reader in Russian Studies Department of European Languages and Cultures School of Languages, Literatures and Cultures The University of Edinburgh David Hume Tower George Square Edinburgh EH8 9JX UK tel. +44-(0)131-6511381 fax: +44- (0)131 -651 -1482 e-mail: Alexandra.Smith at ed.ac.uk -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK Sun Jul 4 09:50:30 2010 From: Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK (Alexandra Smith) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 10:50:30 +0100 Subject: Ivan Tolstoy on the history of publication of Doctor Zhivago Message-ID: Dear colleagues, My apologies for sending a draft of my message. It was an accident. Just to alert you to a very fascinating discussion of the history of publication of Pasternak's novel Doctor Zhivago in the West. It's related to Ivan Tolstoy's book on Doctor Zhivago: http://video.yandex.ru/users/mizo4ka-7890tyi/view/17/ With best wishes, Alexandra -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Ralph.Cleminson at PORT.AC.UK Sun Jul 4 12:20:24 2010 From: Ralph.Cleminson at PORT.AC.UK (Ralph Cleminson) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 13:20:24 +0100 Subject: Translation queries: Ipatyevskaya letopis, 1184 Message-ID: >>> "Paul B. Gallagher" 04/07/10 12:26 AM >>> Can anyone tell me what this "потяну" is? 3rd person singular aorist of потянути. (It is of course a "new" form, by analogy with other conjugational patterns, but there are other examples of this type in the chronicles.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Sun Jul 4 12:14:54 2010 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 13:14:54 +0100 Subject: Translation queries: Ipatyevskaya letopis, 1184 In-Reply-To: <4C2E469E020000420008B770@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk> Message-ID: Just returned from abroad to find this interesting exchange. Comment: samostrel in Old Russian is usually a crossbow. A ballista is in effect a very large crossbow, which might well have required eight men to draw and load; when mounted on a carriage a ballista was called by the Romans a carroballista. Sreznevskii, Materialy ..., s.v. samostrel'nyi quotes this incident directly from the Ipatevskaia letopis' , and s.v. samostrel says that the word is given as a marginal note in the Bible of 1499 to the word ballista in the Latin original of I Maccabees vi, 20, which suggests that the Greek/Latin word was unfamiliar to Russians at that time but that the weapon was not. 'Tuzi' I take to mean simply 'strong', the primary meaning given by Sreznevskii to this word. J. R. Partington's classic work 'A History of Greek Fire and Gunpowder' (1999 edn, p. 25) notes that Greek fire, in tubs, was launched by ballistas. The technology was known to both Byzantine and Muslim military engineers in Konchak's time. Whatever the source of the text the description of the weapon in the chronicle, a ballista mounted on a cart, firing containers of Greek fire, is not a problem linguistically or historically. Note 97 in Haney's commentary on the Slovo o polku igoreve on Dan Waugh's online text site states that Greek fire was occasionally used by the Polovtsy but gives no evidence for the assertion. Was it simply this chronicle entry? Will Ryan On 02/07/2010 20:05, Ralph Cleminson wrote: > Aha! I can't open the link below, but I can read "vasilii-tati6ev" in > the URL, which gives the clue to the origin of the non-Hypatian > material, namely V. N. Tatiščev's "История российская". Notoriously, > this contains a lot of material that is not to be found in the primary > sources, and the question is whether he found it in documents that were > still available to him, working in the 18th century, but are no longer > extant, or whether he made it up. > > It appears that the creator of the document that this link is supposed > to lead to also had difficulty with his sources. The "самострельные > туги" are evidently a corruption of the "лоуци тоузи > самострѣлнии" of the chronicle, > which in Modern Russian would be "луки тугие самострельные", and are the > antecedent of the pronoun, which should therefore be сими. > > The only way out of the translation difficulty, therefore, is to consult > an actual copy of Tatiščev's history (not some garbled internet > version), and cite what he says -- with the usual caveat regarding > "Tatiščev's material". > > Incidentally, à propos of the original post, "Part of my confusion here > lies in the use of a bow, which should not be able to propel a liquid." > Indeed: the chronicle does not say that it could. It says that Končak > had a man who could shoot "living fire" AND he had ballistae, if that is > what they were. (Experts on mediaeval warfare may care to offer an > opinion.) > > > >>>> "Paul B. Gallagher" 02/07/10 5:53 PM >>>> >>>> > > I did find another modern translation that had a somewhat different > version of this excerpt: > > > > 6693 (1185). Война половцев. Кончак кн. Стреляние огнем. Самострелы > великие. Хорол р. Коварство половцев. Половцы побеждены. Безбожный и > свирепый Кончак, князь половецкий, собрав войско великое, пошел на > пределы русские, желая все города попленить и разорить, имея с собою > мужа, умеющего стрелять огнем и зажигать грады, у коего были > самострельные туги столь великие, что едва 8 человек могли натягивать, и > > каждый укреплен был на возу великом. Сим мог бросать каменья в средину > града подъем человеку и для метания огня имел приспособление особое, > небольшое, но весьма хитро сделанное. > > Here I'm at a loss to understand the word "туги," but even if I could, I > > would still have to wait for the author's correction. I assume "сим" is > a typo for "сам" = "тот, он" and not for "сий," but I would render all > of these simply as "he" so it doesn't matter. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mkatz at MIDDLEBURY.EDU Sun Jul 4 19:55:09 2010 From: mkatz at MIDDLEBURY.EDU (Katz, Michael R.) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 15:55:09 -0400 Subject: MLA Conventions Message-ID: Dear colleagues: I have just discovered the dates and locations of the 2012 and 2013 conventions and list them here for those who like to know well in advance: 5-8 January 2012 Seattle 3-6 January 2013 Boston Michael Katz Middlebury College ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Mon Jul 5 09:33:56 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 10:33:56 +0100 Subject: Nonconformist Art from Soviet Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan Exhibition in Zimmerli Art museum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Nukus museum has a wonderful collection - so this should be well worth travelling to! Best Wishes, Robert > The Colors of the Steppe: Nonconformist Art from Soviet Kazakhstan and > Uzbekistan > > Opening ReceptiOn > Wednesday, July 75:30 tO 8:00pm > The neighboring central Asian nations of Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan share a > physical geography defined by the flat grasslands known as the steppe, as > well as Islamic traditions of the arts and architecture featuring the > decorative > use of vivid color. When Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan were part of the Soviet > Union, professional artists were required to work in the official Soviet style > of > Socialist Realism which favored heroic and patriotic topics painted in a > conservative style. The Colors of the Steppe examines the revival of > expressive color in the underground or nonconformist art of Uzbekistan and > Kazakhstan, in which tradition and innovation are combined to produce a > modern, regional art. > Organizing curator: Adrian Barr, Dodge Fellow Zimmerli Art Museum, Rutgers > University > The Colors of the Steppe is on view through October 24, 2010 > a curator-led tour will take place at 5:30pm. > > Wednesday, October 13 > 6:00pm > Film and discussiOn > the desert of Forbidden art is a documentary about the Nukus Museum of Art, > Uzbekistan, which houses thousands of works by Russian avant-garde and > nonconformist artists, prohibited from display under Soviet rule. The film, > created by Amanda Pope and Tchavdar Georgiev, will be followed by a > discussion with Marinika Babanazarova, director of the Nukus Museum of Art. > > Zimmerli Art Museum > Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey 71 Hamilton Street New > Brunswick, New Jersey 08901-1248 732.932.7237 > www.zimmerlimuseum.rutgers.edu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From diannamurphy at WISC.EDU Mon Jul 5 11:31:19 2010 From: diannamurphy at WISC.EDU (Dianna Murphy) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 06:31:19 -0500 Subject: MLA Conventions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear SEELANGs, The AATSEEL Conference is held concurrently with the Modern Language Association Convention. The dates and locations of future conferences are also posted on the AATSEEL website: www.aatseel.org/program. Thanks to Michael and best wishes to all, Dianna Murphy Katz, Michael R. wrote: > Dear colleagues: > > I have just discovered the dates and locations of the 2012 and 2013 conventions and list them here for those who like to know well in advance: > > 5-8 January 2012 Seattle > > 3-6 January 2013 Boston > > Michael Katz > Middlebury College > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- Dianna L. Murphy, Ph.D. Associate Director, Language Institute Associate Director, Russian Flagship Program University of Wisconsin-Madison 1322 Van Hise Hall, 1220 Linden Avenue Madison, WI 53706 (608) 262-1575 diannamurphy at wisc.edu www.languageinstitute.wisc.edu www.sla.wisc.edu www.russianflagship.wisc.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Mon Jul 5 15:51:52 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 11:51:52 -0400 Subject: More antique Russian Message-ID: Can anyone make sense of this? I'm at my wits' end with the weird syntax. I'm supposed to be translating a history of the Russian oil industry, not a compilation of Proto-Slavic quotations... MMTIA Далее приведены сведения о том, что Федор Прядунов приступил и к самостоятельной работе в этой лаборатории: «Того же октября 19 дня означенный Прядунов скаскою в Берг-коллегию показал привезено де им Прядуновым достаток а 746 и 747 годах маия по первое число в Пустоозерском уезде при речке Ухте российской нефти в Москву Берг-коллегии в лабораторию сорок пудов, которая де им Прядуновым вся и передвоена. А по передвойке явилось чистой нефти две трети весом 26 пудов 26 фунтов с половиною...» This refers to events occurring in the 1740s, so I assume "746 и 747 годах маия по первое число" are a thousand years off. The "Берг-коллегия" would be a government agency established to oversee the mining industry (German "Berg" = Russian "Горный"). I suppose "передвойка" is some kind of fractionation or distillation process. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From psyling at YMAIL.COM Mon Jul 5 21:59:44 2010 From: psyling at YMAIL.COM (Psy Ling) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 14:59:44 -0700 Subject: Talking Putin funny program In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Talking Putin funny program. http://esquire.ru/speech The program is slow to upload, but you can make him say whatever you want (although there is a list of words extracted from his speech). Especially I like the list of word combinations. а если серьёзно, в силу объективных причин, стрекоза что-то лето красное пропела, кровь из носу, золотые зубы, кровь из носу etc. PL ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK Mon Jul 5 22:54:32 2010 From: Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK (Alexandra Smith) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 23:54:32 +0100 Subject: Putin's language/funny programme In-Reply-To: <311584.6289.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Psy Ling, Thank you for your reference. According to Verbitskaya's recent assessment of the state of Russian language today in public sphere, Putin's language is much more sophisticated than that of Chernomyrdin. See her interview here: http://www.5-tv.ru/video/505170/ With best wishes, Alexandra ------------- Alexandra Smith (PhD, University of London) Reader in Russian Studies Department of European Languages and Cultures School of Languages, Literatures and Cultures The University of Edinburgh David Hume Tower George Square Edinburgh EH8 9JX UK tel. +44-(0)131-6511381 fax: +44- (0)131 -651 -1482 e-mail: Alexandra.Smith at ed.ac.uk Quoting Psy Ling : > Talking Putin funny program. > http://esquire.ru/speech > The program is slow to upload, but you can make him say whatever you > want (although there is a list of words extracted from his speech). > Especially I like the list of word combinations. а если серьёзно, в > силу объективных причин, стрекоза что-то лето красное пропела, > кровь из носу, золотые зубы, кровь из носу etc. > > PL > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Tue Jul 6 01:03:28 2010 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 21:03:28 -0400 Subject: Putin's language/funny programme In-Reply-To: <20100705235432.wuyg0xktcg44c0w8@www.staffmail.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: That very well may be, but while Vladimir Vladimorovich left us some expressions akin to those that Khrushchev bestowed upon us (мочить в сортире and как раб на галерах being the prime examples; Khrushchev left us кузькину мать, я, дяденька, еще пороть буду and the like): http://www.commcenter.ru/press/articles/2008_05_08.html, Chernomyrdin left us a wealth of incredible, funny and sad at the same time sayings. People and publications reprint them all the time. Only Krylov can compete with him in quantity, and nobody can compete with him in quality. His greatest saying Хотели как лучше, а получилось как всегда will live forever. Have a laugh for yourself: http://aphorism-list.com/autors.php? page=chernomyrdin&tkautors=chernomyrdin http://citataua.livejournal.com/46486.html http://www.oratorica.ru/materials_tsr/material_tsr/&id_obj_ex=77 http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A7%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BC%D1% 8B%D1%80%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BD,_%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80_%D0% A1%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BF%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1% 87#.D0.90.D1.84.D0.BE.D1.80.D0.B8.D0.B7.D0.BC.D1.8B On Jul 5, 2010, at 6:54 PM, Alexandra Smith wrote: > > According to Verbitskaya's recent assessment of the state of > Russian language today in public sphere, Putin's language is much > more sophisticated than that of Chernomyrdin. See her interview > here: http://www.5-tv.ru/video/505170/ > > Alina Israeli Associate Professor of Russian LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave. Washington DC 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From J.Dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Tue Jul 6 13:40:13 2010 From: J.Dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 15:40:13 +0200 Subject: Putin's language/funny programme Message-ID: I believe that many politicians eventually turn into self-parodies, and I think this is to some extent true of Putin and Chernomyrdin. In my view both men are equally sophisticated, though perhaps in a sense closer to the original meaning of the word than its current meaning. It strikes me as probable that their initial linguistic eccentricities were spontaneous and, in the case of Chernomyrdin, accidental, but as time has gone on, these have come to be used by both men (or their advisers) to form part of a carefully constructed linguistic image which has in different ways enhanced their popularity. The danger, however, is that the image starts to takes over the man, and that is when they descend into self-parody. The person who loses out in all this is the incumbent president, for whom it has so far proved impossible to create a convincing and popular linguistic image. But then I am not sure how one would go about creating a convincing and popular linguistic image for someone who has spent their career as an academic lawyer. John Dunn. -----Original Message----- From: Alexandra Smith To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 23:54:32 +0100 Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Putin's language/funny programme Dear Psy Ling, Thank you for your reference. According to Verbitskaya's recent assessment of the state of Russian language today in public sphere, Putin's language is much more sophisticated than that of Chernomyrdin. See her interview here: http://www.5-tv.ru/video/505170/ With best wishes, Alexandra John Dunn Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) University of Glasgow, Scotland Address: Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 40137 Bologna Italy Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wolandusa at BELLSOUTH.NET Tue Jul 6 17:38:08 2010 From: wolandusa at BELLSOUTH.NET (ROBERT MANN) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 10:38:08 -0700 Subject: Authenticity of the Igor Tale - Rare, Overlooked Text Message-ID: Monuments of Early Russian Literature, volume VIII: Skazanie o Mamaevom poboishche. Zabytyi spisok Nikolaia Golovina, Robert Mann ed. (Berkeley Slavic Specialties [ www.berkslav.com ], 2010), 167pp. ISBN 978 1-57201-086-4 In 1835, a rare copy of the Skazanie o Mamaevom poboishche was published by Nikolai Golovin, a friend and distant relative of Pushkin. Golovin's edition was subsequently forgotten, overlooked and ignored by scholars for nearly two centuries. Only a few copies of Golovin's little booklet now survive. Studying Golovin's text in 2005, Robert Mann concluded that the rare version comes from the first redaction of the Skazanie -- a redaction that scholars have posited but could never find. Golovin's text of the Skazanie sheds much light on the history and interconnections of the Kulikovo tales, and it presents at least five new parallels to formulations found in the Igor Tale (Slovo o polku Igoreve) -- including important parallels to the ending of the Slovo. Mann argues that these shared features point to an oral mode of composition and transmission for both the Igor Tale and Kulikovo tales that served as sources for the Zadonshchina. Needless to say, Golovin's text is of great importance in the unending debate over the authenticity of the Igor Tale. Volume VIII of Monuments contains a complete transcript of Golovin's Skazanie as well as a reprint of the version published by Ivan Snegirev in 1838 (from a later redaction that was somewhat erroneously named "Basic"). In an essay that accompanies the two Skazanie texts, Mann addresses questions pertaining to the authenticity of Golovin's copy and its relationship to other known redactions of the tale as well as to the Slovo o polku Igoreve.    ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From emilyerken at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jul 6 21:58:52 2010 From: emilyerken at HOTMAIL.COM (Emma Erken) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 21:58:52 +0000 Subject: Small Moscow Apartment close to the city center Message-ID: Please post this email. Small Moscow Apartment close to the city center a one-bedroom (i.e. one room + kitchen +bathroom +entranceway) apartment will be available August 1. It is located 4 minutes walk away from Metro Polezhayevskaya (purple line), 4 stops from Pushkinskaya. It was completely renovated in 2009. All furnishings are new.The apartment is at the corner of the building so there are two windows and a lot of light. The room is 18.6 square meters. All utilities and internet are included. It overlooks a peaceful courtyard, and the pod'ezd is not scary. This apartment would be an ideal place for a post-graduate, a visiting professor, or a young couple. The landlady teaches English at a university. There is a Pyatyorochka - inexpensive grocery store- just across the street, and the lovely Beryozovaya Roshcha Park is 15 minutes walk away. Serebryannyi Bor (beaches, swimming area) is 15 minutes away by trolley. The pictures are available on my facebook page - Emma Erken Please contact Emily emilyerken at hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From a.e.leeds at GMAIL.COM Wed Jul 7 03:38:44 2010 From: a.e.leeds at GMAIL.COM (Adam Leeds) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 23:38:44 -0400 Subject: Apartment or room needed in Moscow, long term Message-ID: Hi, I'm beginning my dissertation research in Moscow, starting September 1st and staying for up to two years. Right now I'm hoping to find something on expat.ru, but I'd very much appreciate any suggestions or help. I'm clean and conscientious. Long term would be wonderful, but short term would also be good to give me a chance to look for something longer while in Moscow. Many thanks in advance, Adam Leeds -- Adam E. Leeds Ph.D. Candidate Department of Anthropology University of Pennsylvania 914.980.2970 leeds at sas.upenn.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Wed Jul 7 11:34:10 2010 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 12:34:10 +0100 Subject: More antique Russian In-Reply-To: <4C31FF98.9010609@pbg-translations.com> Message-ID: Paul - since no one else has commented (summer vacation?), I can make few points: скаскою (skazkoiu) here means 'in a report'; the Berg-Kollegiia was one of the 12 quasi-ministries set up by Peter the Great and continued until the early 19th c. - it dealt with mines and minerals; the missing first digit in the dates is quite normal in this period; peredvoit' is to distill a second time (see Dal'), thus peredvoika = secondary distillation; dostatok = a quantity, a supply. The syntax is indeed convoluted, and the grammatical agreement peculiar, but fairly typical of 18th c. officialese. I would guess the meaning to be: On the 19th of that October the aforementioned Priadunov in a presentation to the Berg-Kollegia displayed a quantity [of naphtha, i.e. petroleum] brought by him, Priadunov, and in 1746 and 1747 on the first of May [he brought] 40 puds of Russian naphtha [obtained] in the Pustozersk district on the river Ukhta to the laboratory of the Berg Kollegiia in Moscow, all of which was double distilled by the same Priadunov. And after the second distillation there appeared two thirds of pure naphtha, 26 puds, 26 and a half pounds in weight. Perhaps someone can refine this further (pardon the pun). Will On 05/07/2010 16:51, Paul B. Gallagher wrote: > Can anyone make sense of this? I'm at my wits' end with the weird > syntax. I'm supposed to be translating a history of the Russian oil > industry, not a compilation of Proto-Slavic quotations... > > MMTIA > > Далее приведены сведения о том, что Федор Прядунов приступил и к > самостоятельной работе в этой лаборатории: «Того же октября 19 дня > означенный Прядунов скаскою в Берг-коллегию показал привезено де им > Прядуновым достаток а 746 и 747 годах маия по первое число в > Пустоозерском уезде при речке Ухте российской нефти в Москву > Берг-коллегии в лабораторию сорок пудов, которая де им Прядуновым вся > и передвоена. А по передвойке явилось чистой нефти две трети весом 26 > пудов 26 фунтов с половиною...» > > This refers to events occurring in the 1740s, so I assume "746 и 747 > годах маия по первое число" are a thousand years off. The > "Берг-коллегия" would be a government agency established to oversee > the mining industry (German "Berg" = Russian "Горный"). I suppose > "передвойка" is some kind of fractionation or distillation process. > From Philippe.FRISON at COE.INT Thu Jul 8 07:26:28 2010 From: Philippe.FRISON at COE.INT (FRISON Philippe) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 09:26:28 +0200 Subject: Operotdel In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: Coul list members give me definitions of various meanings of оперотдел ('operotdel'). The term seems to be in use within the KGB-FSB and in penitentiary contexts It seems connected to the rather vague оперативный (operativny), of which I am really desperate to find appropriate equivalent (the calque 'operational' does not fit in most contexts). Thank you in advance for any help Philippe Frison (Strasbourg, france) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Thu Jul 8 08:10:53 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 04:10:53 -0400 Subject: Operotdel In-Reply-To: <42E8F3C1A8950C4DB7DFF5833AA7FAD103859CF6@OBELIX.key.coe.int> Message-ID: FRISON Philippe wrote: > Coul list members give me definitions of various meanings of оперотдел ('operotdel'). > > The term seems to be in use within the KGB-FSB and in penitentiary contexts > > It seems connected to the rather vague оперативный (operativny), of which I am > really desperate to find appropriate equivalent (the calque 'operational' does > not fit in most contexts). > > Thank you in advance for any help ОПЕР... Первая часть сложных слов. Вносит зн.: связанный с операциями по задержанию правонарушителей, с расследованием происшествий и преступлений. Опермероприятия, оперотдел, оперработник. -- Толковый словарь русского языка Кузнецова ОПЕРАЦИОННЫЙ операционная, операционное. 1. прил. к операция. Операционное отделение в больнице. Операционный стол. Операционный отдел (учреждения, банка, где проводятся операции). Операционный год (годичный период, за который учреждение… -- Толковый словарь Ушакова ОПЕРАТИВНЫЙ прил. 1) efficient, active; effective; energetic 2) мед. operative; surgical 3) воен. operations; operational; strategical; front, war 4) (практически осуществляющий что-л.) executive; operation(s) -- Большой англо-русский и русско-английский словарь HTH -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From J.Dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Thu Jul 8 09:58:07 2010 From: J.Dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 11:58:07 +0200 Subject: Operotdel Message-ID: A visit to the web-sites of the relevant UK agencies suggests that 'operational' may indeed be the appropriate word. Of course, I cannot guarantee that what appears there is not deliberate disinformation... John Dunn. -----Original Message----- From: FRISON Philippe To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 09:26:28 +0200 Subject: [SEELANGS] Operotdel Coul list members give me definitions of various meanings of оперотдел ('operotdel'). The term seems to be in use within the KGB-FSB and in penitentiary contexts It seems connected to the rather vague оперативный (operativny), of which I am really desperate to find appropriate equivalent (the calque 'operational' does not fit in most contexts). Thank you in advance for any help Philippe Frison (Strasbourg, france) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Dunn Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) University of Glasgow, Scotland Address: Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 40137 Bologna Italy Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From franssuasso at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jul 8 13:05:04 2010 From: franssuasso at HOTMAIL.COM (Frans Suasso) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 15:05:04 +0200 Subject: Operotdel In-Reply-To: <42E8F3C1A8950C4DB7DFF5833AA7FAD103859CF6@OBELIX.key.coe.int> Message-ID: On 8-7-2010 9:26, FRISON Philippe wrote: > Coul list members give me definitions of various meanings of оперотдел ('operotdel'). > > The term seems to be in use within the KGB-FSB and in penitentiary contexts > > It seems connected to the rather vague оперативный (operativny), of which I am > really desperate to find appropriate equivalent (the calque 'operational' does > not fit in most contexts). > > Thank you in advance for any help > > Philippe Frison > (Strasbourg, france) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It ia team that has to do an ur4gent job. In Frenchjyou miay try someting with "intervention nurgente// eapide. Gpod luck. Frans Suasso ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mrjimwormold at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jul 8 17:19:07 2010 From: mrjimwormold at HOTMAIL.COM (Will C) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 17:19:07 +0000 Subject: Apartment in Moscow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Emma, I am interested in the apartment but would like to know a few things. First, how much is the apartment? Second, what is the street number of the house? And finally, how do I access the pictures? Thanks! Best,Will > Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 21:58:52 +0000 > From: emilyerken at HOTMAIL.COM > Subject: [SEELANGS] Small Moscow Apartment close to the city center > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > Please post this email. > Small Moscow Apartment close to the city center > a one-bedroom (i.e. one room + kitchen +bathroom +entranceway) apartment will be available August 1. It is located 4 minutes walk away from Metro Polezhayevskaya (purple line), 4 stops from Pushkinskaya. > It was completely renovated in 2009. All furnishings are new.The apartment is at the corner of the building so there are two windows and a lot of light. The room is 18.6 square meters. All utilities and internet are included. It overlooks a peaceful courtyard, and the pod'ezd is not scary. This apartment would be an ideal place for a post-graduate, a visiting professor, or a young couple. The landlady teaches English at a university. > There is a Pyatyorochka - inexpensive grocery store- just across the street, and the lovely Beryozovaya Roshcha Park is 15 minutes walk away. Serebryannyi Bor (beaches, swimming area) is 15 minutes away by trolley. > The pictures are available on my facebook page - Emma Erken > Please contact Emily emilyerken at hotmail.com > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From emily.ambrose.wang at GMAIL.COM Thu Jul 8 17:41:14 2010 From: emily.ambrose.wang at GMAIL.COM (Emily Wang) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 12:41:14 -0500 Subject: Apartment in Moscow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry, the apartment is no longer available! Thanks for your interest, though. On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Will C wrote: > Dear Emma, > I am interested in the apartment but would like to know a few things. > First, how much is the apartment? Second, what is the street number of the > house? And finally, how do I access the pictures? Thanks! > Best,Will > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 21:58:52 +0000 > > From: emilyerken at HOTMAIL.COM > > Subject: [SEELANGS] Small Moscow Apartment close to the city center > > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > > > Please post this email. > > Small Moscow Apartment close to the city center > > a one-bedroom (i.e. one room + kitchen +bathroom +entranceway) apartment > will be available August 1. It is located 4 minutes walk away from Metro > Polezhayevskaya (purple line), 4 stops from Pushkinskaya. > > It was completely renovated in 2009. All furnishings are new.The > apartment is at the corner of the building so there are two windows and a > lot of light. The room is 18.6 square meters. All utilities and internet are > included. It overlooks a peaceful courtyard, and the pod'ezd is not scary. > This apartment would be an ideal place for a post-graduate, a visiting > professor, or a young couple. The landlady teaches English at a university. > > There is a Pyatyorochka - inexpensive grocery store- just across the > street, and the lovely Beryozovaya Roshcha Park is 15 minutes walk away. > Serebryannyi Bor (beaches, swimming area) is 15 minutes away by trolley. > > The pictures are available on my facebook page - Emma Erken > > Please contact Emily emilyerken at hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from > your inbox. > > > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _________________________________________________________________ > The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with > Hotmail. > > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From emily.ambrose.wang at GMAIL.COM Thu Jul 8 17:41:56 2010 From: emily.ambrose.wang at GMAIL.COM (Emily Wang) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 12:41:56 -0500 Subject: Apartment in Moscow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, I apologize! I thought this was a different e-mail. On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 12:41 PM, Emily Wang wrote: > Sorry, the apartment is no longer available! Thanks for your interest, > though. > > > On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Will C wrote: > >> Dear Emma, >> I am interested in the apartment but would like to know a few things. >> First, how much is the apartment? Second, what is the street number of the >> house? And finally, how do I access the pictures? Thanks! >> Best,Will >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 21:58:52 +0000 >> > From: emilyerken at HOTMAIL.COM >> > Subject: [SEELANGS] Small Moscow Apartment close to the city center >> > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >> > >> > Please post this email. >> > Small Moscow Apartment close to the city center >> > a one-bedroom (i.e. one room + kitchen +bathroom +entranceway) apartment >> will be available August 1. It is located 4 minutes walk away from Metro >> Polezhayevskaya (purple line), 4 stops from Pushkinskaya. >> > It was completely renovated in 2009. All furnishings are new.The >> apartment is at the corner of the building so there are two windows and a >> lot of light. The room is 18.6 square meters. All utilities and internet are >> included. It overlooks a peaceful courtyard, and the pod'ezd is not scary. >> This apartment would be an ideal place for a post-graduate, a visiting >> professor, or a young couple. The landlady teaches English at a university. >> > There is a Pyatyorochka - inexpensive grocery store- just across the >> street, and the lovely Beryozovaya Roshcha Park is 15 minutes walk away. >> Serebryannyi Bor (beaches, swimming area) is 15 minutes away by trolley. >> > The pictures are available on my facebook page - Emma Erken >> > Please contact Emily emilyerken at hotmail.com >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________________________________ >> > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from >> your inbox. >> > >> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with >> Hotmail. >> >> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fjp2106 at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Jul 8 18:49:45 2010 From: fjp2106 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Francisco Picon) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 14:49:45 -0400 Subject: sharing a room at the 2010 ASEEES (AAASS) convention Message-ID: Dear prospective 2010 ASEEES (AAASS) conference attendees, I am seeking someone to split the cost of sharing a room at the 2010 ASEEES (AAASS) convention in Los Angeles in November. If you are interested in sharing a room, please respond to me off-list. Yours, Francisco Picon Columbia University ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU Thu Jul 8 23:21:34 2010 From: hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU (Hugh McLean) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 16:21:34 -0700 Subject: Operotdel In-Reply-To: <42E8F3C1A8950C4DB7DFF5833AA7FAD103859CF6@OBELIX.key.coe.int> Message-ID: Vera V. Carpovich's book Solzhenitsyn's Peculiar Vocabulary (1976) does not list 'operotdel' among various other derivatives of 'oper.' which itself is regarded as a contraction of 'operativnyj upolnomochennyj, nachal'nik osvedomitelej',defined as 'local secret-police officer.' She gives 'operativnik' as a synonym of 'oper' and 'operchast' as 'local secret police office'. She does include 'operchekotdel' as a contraction of operativno-chekistkaja chast', with the meaning 'Operations Dept' (of secret police). > The term seems to be in use within the KGB-FSB and in penitentiary contexts > > It seems connected to the rather vague оперативный (operativny), of which I am > really desperate to find appropriate equivalent (the calque 'operational' does > not fit in most contexts). > > Thank you in advance for any help > > Philippe Frison > (Strasbourg, france) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From emilyerken at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jul 9 09:26:35 2010 From: emilyerken at HOTMAIL.COM (Emma Erken) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 09:26:35 +0000 Subject: Apartment in Moscow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Will, Thanks for your response. The address is Khoroshovskoye shosse 70, and the apartment costs 30,000 rubles a month. All utilities and internet are included. I had some trouble posting the pictures at first, but now they should be up. Search on Facebook, "Emma Erken". Could you tell us a little bit about yourself? Best,Emma > Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 17:19:07 +0000 > From: mrjimwormold at HOTMAIL.COM > Subject: [SEELANGS] Apartment in Moscow > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > Dear Emma, > I am interested in the apartment but would like to know a few things. First, how much is the apartment? Second, what is the street number of the house? And finally, how do I access the pictures? Thanks! > Best,Will > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 21:58:52 +0000 > > From: emilyerken at HOTMAIL.COM > > Subject: [SEELANGS] Small Moscow Apartment close to the city center > > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > > > Please post this email. > > Small Moscow Apartment close to the city center > > a one-bedroom (i.e. one room + kitchen +bathroom +entranceway) apartment will be available August 1. It is located 4 minutes walk away from Metro Polezhayevskaya (purple line), 4 stops from Pushkinskaya. > > It was completely renovated in 2009. All furnishings are new.The apartment is at the corner of the building so there are two windows and a lot of light. The room is 18.6 square meters. All utilities and internet are included. It overlooks a peaceful courtyard, and the pod'ezd is not scary. This apartment would be an ideal place for a post-graduate, a visiting professor, or a young couple. The landlady teaches English at a university. > > There is a Pyatyorochka - inexpensive grocery store- just across the street, and the lovely Beryozovaya Roshcha Park is 15 minutes walk away. Serebryannyi Bor (beaches, swimming area) is 15 minutes away by trolley. > > The pictures are available on my facebook page - Emma Erken > > Please contact Emily emilyerken at hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. > > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _________________________________________________________________ > The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Fri Jul 9 10:16:06 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 06:16:06 -0400 Subject: More antique Russian In-Reply-To: <4C346632.5020905@sas.ac.uk> Message-ID: William Ryan wrote: > Paul - since no one else has commented (summer vacation?), I can make > few points: > > скаскою (skazkoiu) here means 'in a report'; the Berg-Kollegiia was > one of the 12 quasi-ministries set up by Peter the Great and > continued until the early 19th c. - it dealt with mines and minerals; > the missing first digit in the dates is quite normal in this period; > peredvoit' is to distill a second time (see Dal'), thus peredvoika = > secondary distillation; dostatok = a quantity, a supply. > > The syntax is indeed convoluted, and the grammatical agreement > peculiar, but fairly typical of 18th c. officialese. I would guess > the meaning to be: > > On the 19th of that October the aforementioned Priadunov in a > presentation to the Berg-Kollegia displayed a quantity [of naphtha, > i.e. petroleum] brought by him, Priadunov, and in 1746 and 1747 on > the first of May [he brought] 40 puds of Russian naphtha [obtained] > in the Pustozersk district on the river Ukhta to the laboratory of > the Berg Kollegiia in Moscow, all of which was double distilled by > the same Priadunov. And after the second distillation there appeared > two thirds of pure naphtha, 26 puds, 26 and a half pounds in weight. > > Perhaps someone can refine this further (pardon the pun). Actually, several other people did help me, but they all wrote privately, so I assume they prefer not to be publicly acclaimed for their valuable contributions. Still, your remarks confirmed what the others said, and filled in a gap with скаскою (сказкою as you say). Thank you. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Fri Jul 9 12:35:34 2010 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 13:35:34 +0100 Subject: More antique Russian In-Reply-To: <4C36F6E6.9030507@pbg-translations.com> Message-ID: To repeat a complaint made often enough before, if SEELANGers respond off-list to requests for information this not only leads to unnecessary duplication of effort, it defeats the whole purpose of the list, which is to exchange information and opinion. In this particular interesting case I would quite like to know if anyone has come up with a better explanation of the apparently defective agreement of 'perevezeno' in your problem passage. Will On 09/07/2010 11:16, Paul B. Gallagher wrote: > William Ryan wrote: > >> Paul - since no one else has commented (summer vacation?), I can make >> few points: >> >> скаскою (skazkoiu) here means 'in a report'; the Berg-Kollegiia was >> one of the 12 quasi-ministries set up by Peter the Great and >> continued until the early 19th c. - it dealt with mines and minerals; >> the missing first digit in the dates is quite normal in this period; >> peredvoit' is to distill a second time (see Dal'), thus peredvoika = >> secondary distillation; dostatok = a quantity, a supply. >> >> The syntax is indeed convoluted, and the grammatical agreement >> peculiar, but fairly typical of 18th c. officialese. I would guess >> the meaning to be: >> >> On the 19th of that October the aforementioned Priadunov in a >> presentation to the Berg-Kollegia displayed a quantity [of naphtha, >> i.e. petroleum] brought by him, Priadunov, and in 1746 and 1747 on >> the first of May [he brought] 40 puds of Russian naphtha [obtained] >> in the Pustozersk district on the river Ukhta to the laboratory of >> the Berg Kollegiia in Moscow, all of which was double distilled by >> the same Priadunov. And after the second distillation there appeared >> two thirds of pure naphtha, 26 puds, 26 and a half pounds in weight. >> >> Perhaps someone can refine this further (pardon the pun). > > Actually, several other people did help me, but they all wrote > privately, so I assume they prefer not to be publicly acclaimed for > their valuable contributions. > > Still, your remarks confirmed what the others said, and filled in a > gap with скаскою (сказкою as you say). Thank you. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From J.Dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Fri Jul 9 13:34:33 2010 From: J.Dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 15:34:33 +0200 Subject: More antique Russian Message-ID: In response to Will's reproach I am re-sending to the list my annotated translation of the passage in question. I have removed a note that essentially duplicates some of Will's explanations and added a new note about the agreement of 'perevezeno'. Also on 19 October the above-mentioned Priadunov made a statement to the Mining Department in which he claimed that he had delivered to the laboratory of the Mining Department in Moscow Russian oil, which he had extracted in 1746 and in the first four months of 1747 [while exploring] in the Pustozersk uezd close to the river Ukhta, to a quantity [weight] of 40 poods. Priadunov claimed to have subjected all of this oil to a process of double distillation, and the result of this double distillation was pure oil which had a weight of two-thirds [of the original], i.e. 26 poods and 26½ pounds. Notes: 1. This does not claim to be a finshed version, but I wanted to make it reasonably transparent how I got from the original to the translation. 2. Even by the undemanding standards of the 18th century this is not particularly elegant piece of writing, and I cannot rule out the possibility that the text is corrupt (or that it is written by someone who is not a native speaker of Russian). 3. I am not sure that agreement of перевезено is defective. The syntax here in not entirely transparent, but I take the subject to be the numeral construction: российской нефти ... сорок пудов, and to the best of my knowledge neuter agreement with such constructions is not unusual in 17th- and 18th-century Russian. But there may be other and better explanations. John Dunn. -----Original Message----- From: William Ryan To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 13:35:34 +0100 Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] More antique Russian To repeat a complaint made often enough before, if SEELANGers respond off-list to requests for information this not only leads to unnecessary duplication of effort, it defeats the whole purpose of the list, which is to exchange information and opinion. In this particular interesting case I would quite like to know if anyone has come up with a better explanation of the apparently defective agreement of 'perevezeno' in your problem passage. Will John Dunn Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) University of Glasgow, Scotland Address: Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 40137 Bologna Italy Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Fri Jul 9 14:10:54 2010 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 15:10:54 +0100 Subject: More antique Russian In-Reply-To: <1278682473.9f85a47cJ.Dunn@slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk> Message-ID: Thank you John. Your suggestion regarding 'perevezeno' makes good sense. And I had carelessly glossed over the sense of 'po' which you give, correctly I think, as 'in the first four months of 1747'. Your version is better although I think we agree on the essentials. So I have learned. Open exchange is worth it! Regards, Will On 09/07/2010 14:34, John Dunn wrote: > In response to Will's reproach I am re-sending to the list my annotated translation of the passage in question. I have removed a note that essentially duplicates some of Will's explanations and added a new note about the agreement of 'perevezeno'. > > Also on 19 October the above-mentioned Priadunov made a statement to the Mining Department in which he claimed that he had delivered to the laboratory of the Mining Department in Moscow Russian oil, which he had extracted in 1746 and in the first four months of 1747 [while exploring] in the Pustozersk uezd close to the river Ukhta, to a quantity [weight] of 40 poods. Priadunov claimed to have subjected all of this oil to a process of double distillation, and the result of this double distillation was pure oil which had a weight of two-thirds [of the original], i.e. 26 poods and 26½ pounds. > > Notes: > > 1. This does not claim to be a finshed version, but I wanted to make it reasonably transparent how I got from the original to the translation. > > 2. Even by the undemanding standards of the 18th century this is not particularly elegant piece of writing, and I cannot rule out the possibility that the text is corrupt (or that it is written by someone who is not a native speaker of Russian). > > 3. I am not sure that agreement of перевезено is defective. The syntax here in not entirely transparent, but I take the subject to be the numeral construction: российской нефти ... сорок пудов, and to the best of my knowledge neuter agreement with such constructions is not unusual in 17th- and 18th-century Russian. But there may be other and better explanations. > > John Dunn. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: William Ryan > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 13:35:34 +0100 > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] More antique Russian > > To repeat a complaint made often enough before, if SEELANGers respond > off-list to requests for information this not only leads to unnecessary > duplication of effort, it defeats the whole purpose of the list, which > is to exchange information and opinion. In this particular interesting > case I would quite like to know if anyone has come up with a better > explanation of the apparently defective agreement of 'perevezeno' in > your problem passage. > > Will > > > John Dunn > Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) > University of Glasgow, Scotland > > Address: > Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 > 40137 Bologna > Italy > Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 > e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk > johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Ralph.Cleminson at PORT.AC.UK Fri Jul 9 14:52:35 2010 From: Ralph.Cleminson at PORT.AC.UK (Ralph Cleminson) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 15:52:35 +0100 Subject: More antique Russian Message-ID: I have nothing to add to the translation (with which I agree), but might I suggest a minor textual emendation: instead of "а 746 и 747 годах", "в 746 и 747 годах"? This certainly helps with both sense and syntax. It also makes it easier to read if you imagine a colon after "показал". >>> William Ryan 09/07/10 3:11 PM >>> Thank you John. Your suggestion regarding 'perevezeno' makes good sense. And I had carelessly glossed over the sense of 'po' which you give, correctly I think, as 'in the first four months of 1747'. Your version is better although I think we agree on the essentials. So I have learned. Open exchange is worth it! Regards, Will On 09/07/2010 14:34, John Dunn wrote: > In response to Will's reproach I am re-sending to the list my annotated translation of the passage in question. I have removed a note that essentially duplicates some of Will's explanations and added a new note about the agreement of 'perevezeno'. > > Also on 19 October the above-mentioned Priadunov made a statement to the Mining Department in which he claimed that he had delivered to the laboratory of the Mining Department in Moscow Russian oil, which he had extracted in 1746 and in the first four months of 1747 [while exploring] in the Pustozersk uezd close to the river Ukhta, to a quantity [weight] of 40 poods. Priadunov claimed to have subjected all of this oil to a process of double distillation, and the result of this double distillation was pure oil which had a weight of two-thirds [of the original], i.e. 26 poods and 26½ pounds. > > Notes: > > 1. This does not claim to be a finshed version, but I wanted to make it reasonably transparent how I got from the original to the translation. > > 2. Even by the undemanding standards of the 18th century this is not particularly elegant piece of writing, and I cannot rule out the possibility that the text is corrupt (or that it is written by someone who is not a native speaker of Russian). > > 3. I am not sure that agreement of перевезено is defective. The syntax here in not entirely transparent, but I take the subject to be the numeral construction: российской нефти ... сорок пудов, and to the best of my knowledge neuter agreement with such constructions is not unusual in 17th- and 18th-century Russian. But there may be other and better explanations. > > John Dunn. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: William Ryan > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 13:35:34 +0100 > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] More antique Russian > > To repeat a complaint made often enough before, if SEELANGers respond > off-list to requests for information this not only leads to unnecessary > duplication of effort, it defeats the whole purpose of the list, which > is to exchange information and opinion. In this particular interesting > case I would quite like to know if anyone has come up with a better > explanation of the apparently defective agreement of 'perevezeno' in > your problem passage. > > Will > > > John Dunn > Honorary Research Fellow, SMLC (Slavonic Studies) > University of Glasgow, Scotland > > Address: > Via Carolina Coronedi Berti 6 > 40137 Bologna > Italy > Tel.: +39 051/1889 8661 > e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk > johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From taya.kitaysky at GMAIL.COM Sat Jul 10 08:08:48 2010 From: taya.kitaysky at GMAIL.COM (Taya Kitaysky) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 02:08:48 -0600 Subject: Call for submissions: poetry and translations Message-ID: *Ice Floe*, a journal of circumpolar north poetry, is seeking northern Russia poetry and translations to be considered for its upcoming 2011 volume. This includes poetry written in Russian and any indigenous languages as well. There is no limit on subject matter; the only qualification is excellence and a strong connection to northern Russia. Please send electronic submissions--no more than five poems--to takitaysky at alaska.edu. Thank you, Taya Kitaysky Ice Floe Northern Russia poetry editor * * ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From GODWINJO at BC.EDU Sat Jul 10 14:37:43 2010 From: GODWINJO at BC.EDU (Molly Godwin-Jones) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 09:37:43 -0500 Subject: Call for submissions: poetry and translations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Taya- This seems like a very interesting journal- Is there a deadline for submission of poetry? Thank you- Molly Godwin-Jones On Jul 10, 2010, at 3:08 AM, Taya Kitaysky wrote: > *Ice Floe*, a journal of circumpolar north poetry, is seeking northern > Russia poetry and translations to be considered for its upcoming 2011 > volume. This includes poetry written in Russian and any indigenous > languages > as well. There is no limit on subject matter; the only qualification > is > excellence and a strong connection to northern Russia. > > Please send electronic submissions--no more than five poems--to > takitaysky at alaska.edu. > > Thank you, > Taya Kitaysky > Ice Floe Northern Russia poetry editor > * > * > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vakarel at UOREGON.EDU Sat Jul 10 19:38:16 2010 From: vakarel at UOREGON.EDU (Cynthia Vakareliyska) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 14:38:16 -0500 Subject: Seeking specialist on 19th-cen. Polish letters Message-ID: Can anyone refer me, **off-line**, to a historian or other specialist, preferably a native Polish speaker, who has experience reading 19th-cen. Polish letters handwritten by not very educated people? I have a number of PDFs of letters written in Polish and containing both apparent Suwalki-area dialect lexemes and certain graphemes that can't be deciphered by a host of people who have tried, including native speakers. With thanks in advance, Cynthia Vakareliyska Cynthia M. Vakareliyska Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics University of Oregon Eugene, OR 97403 vakarel at uoregon.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From caron.4 at BUCKEYEMAIL.OSU.EDU Sat Jul 10 21:25:31 2010 From: caron.4 at BUCKEYEMAIL.OSU.EDU (Inna Caron) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 21:25:31 +0000 Subject: Elephant in the room Message-ID: Does anyone have any idea as to how this situation with the Russian spies may affect Russian language programs in the U.S. universities? Common sense suggests that we should see some increase in funding, but common sense doesn't always prevail in these matters, does it? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rifkin at TCNJ.EDU Sat Jul 10 21:30:16 2010 From: rifkin at TCNJ.EDU (Benjamin Rifkin) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 17:30:16 -0400 Subject: Elephant in the room In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I believe that funding doesn't respond to such events; funding follows enrollments and strategic planning. In the context of budgetary crises in higher education, I can't imagine that many institutions will be able to nimbly redirect resources from chemistry or English to Russian. I have seen enrollments in Russian in my own institution go up dramatically because our freshman orientation was fortuitously scheduled to occur on the days immediately following the arrests, allowing me to capitalize on the events in my presentation. Ben Rifkin The College of New Jersey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Inna Caron" To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 5:25:31 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [SEELANGS] Elephant in the room Does anyone have any idea as to how this situation with the Russian spies may affect Russian language programs in the U.S. universities? Common sense suggests that we should see some increase in funding, but common sense doesn't always prevail in these matters, does it? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From stepanova.1 at BUCKEYEMAIL.OSU.EDU Sat Jul 10 21:31:57 2010 From: stepanova.1 at BUCKEYEMAIL.OSU.EDU (LARYSA STEPANOVA) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 21:31:57 +0000 Subject: Elephant in the room In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No, it does not. L ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] on behalf of Inna Caron [caron.4 at BUCKEYEMAIL.OSU.EDU] Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 5:25 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] Elephant in the room Does anyone have any idea as to how this situation with the Russian spies may affect Russian language programs in the U.S. universities? Common sense suggests that we should see some increase in funding, but common sense doesn't always prevail in these matters, does it? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From beyer at MIDDLEBURY.EDU Sat Jul 10 22:20:30 2010 From: beyer at MIDDLEBURY.EDU (Beyer, Tom) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 18:20:30 -0400 Subject: Elephant in the room In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Funding is not likely to be forthcoming, but news about things Russian, any news has traditionally increased elementary Rusian enrollments for that year. So plan on my work with the same resources. :-) On 7/10/10 5:25 PM, "Inna Caron" wrote: > Does anyone have any idea as to how this situation with the Russian spies may > affect Russian language programs in the U.S. universities? Common sense > suggests that we should see some increase in funding, but common sense doesn't > always prevail in these matters, does it? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From nicolakuchta at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 10 23:00:33 2010 From: nicolakuchta at YAHOO.COM (Nicola Kuchta) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 16:00:33 -0700 Subject: Elephant in the room In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I cannot speak to enrollments or funding but our department's summer language study-abroad program recently encountered difficulty when getting student visas processed. What for the last 10 years has taken 10-15 days took two months and ended with their reception at the 11th hour. Nicola Kuchta Graduate Student University of Pittsburgh ________________________________ From: Inna Caron To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Sent: Sat, July 10, 2010 5:25:31 PM Subject: [SEELANGS] Elephant in the room Does anyone have any idea as to how this situation with the Russian spies may affect Russian language programs in the U.S. universities? Common sense suggests that we should see some increase in funding, but common sense doesn't always prevail in these matters, does it? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From nataliek at UALBERTA.CA Sun Jul 11 00:34:15 2010 From: nataliek at UALBERTA.CA (nataliek at UALBERTA.CA) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 18:34:15 -0600 Subject: Elephant in the room In-Reply-To: <278224.25036.qm@web112611.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have a different sort of "elephant" question. Not sure if this is the right forum, but here goes. I met a man in Moscow. He was quite prominent in museum circles. We had a lengthy correspondence and I put him in touch with various other people in Canada with similar interests. He was an avid correspondent. He wrote to all of them before they had a chance to contact him. Then, all of a sudden, he disappeared. I emailed many times. Finally I called and was told that the phone was no longer in service. Any ideas as to what happened? Did he get into trouble for contact with too many foreigners? I'm both curious and worried. Natalie Kononenko Kule Chair of Ukrainian Ethnography Editor, Folklorica University of Alberta Modern Languages and Cultural Studies 200 Arts Building Edmonton, Alberta, Canada T6G 2E6 Phone: 780-492-6810 Web: http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/uvp/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kristi.groberg at NDSU.EDU Sun Jul 11 02:38:07 2010 From: kristi.groberg at NDSU.EDU (kristi.groberg at NDSU.EDU) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 21:38:07 -0500 Subject: Elephant in the room In-Reply-To: <20100710183415.13971pu39xisfyqs@webmail.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: Natalie, might he be one of these people? Might account for it. Kris http://www.salon.com/wires/entertainment/2010/07/07/D9GQ6DF80_eu_russia_art_on_trial/index.html > I have a different sort of "elephant" question. Not sure if this is > the right forum, but here goes. > > I met a man in Moscow. He was quite prominent in museum circles. We > had a lengthy correspondence and I put him in touch with various other > people in Canada with similar interests. He was an avid > correspondent. He wrote to all of them before they had a chance to > contact him. > > Then, all of a sudden, he disappeared. I emailed many times. Finally > I called and was told that the phone was no longer in service. Any > ideas as to what happened? Did he get into trouble for contact with > too many foreigners? > > I'm both curious and worried. > > Natalie Kononenko > Kule Chair of Ukrainian Ethnography > Editor, Folklorica > University of Alberta > Modern Languages and Cultural Studies > 200 Arts Building > Edmonton, Alberta, Canada T6G 2E6 > Phone: 780-492-6810 > Web: http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/uvp/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From nataliek at UALBERTA.CA Sun Jul 11 03:38:07 2010 From: nataliek at UALBERTA.CA (nataliek at UALBERTA.CA) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 21:38:07 -0600 Subject: Elephant in the room In-Reply-To: <25a91ca1264b53632c8a6db29cb01a6e.squirrel@webmail.ndsu.nodak.edu> Message-ID: Interesting - and scary. No, he is not one of these. In fact, he is from St. Petersburg which, as you all probably know, has a large and wonderful museum system. I'm reluctant to reveal my correspondent's name just in case he is not in trouble but has disappeared for another reason. I would hate to be the one to draw suspicion to him. The situation with the two men from Moscow may well be analogous to the one in which my correspondent finds himself. I don't see a religious element to what he was up to. But who knows. Maybe there was a show that he was planning that I don't know about and that drew the ire of the powers that be. Natalie Kononenko Quoting kristi.groberg at NDSU.EDU: > Natalie, might he be one of these people? Might account for it. Kris > http://www.salon.com/wires/entertainment/2010/07/07/D9GQ6DF80_eu_russia_art_on_trial/index.html > >> I have a different sort of "elephant" question. Not sure if this is >> the right forum, but here goes. >> >> I met a man in Moscow. He was quite prominent in museum circles. We >> had a lengthy correspondence and I put him in touch with various other >> people in Canada with similar interests. He was an avid >> correspondent. He wrote to all of them before they had a chance to >> contact him. >> >> Then, all of a sudden, he disappeared. I emailed many times. Finally >> I called and was told that the phone was no longer in service. Any >> ideas as to what happened? Did he get into trouble for contact with >> too many foreigners? >> >> I'm both curious and worried. >> >> Natalie Kononenko >> Kule Chair of Ukrainian Ethnography >> Editor, Folklorica >> University of Alberta >> Modern Languages and Cultural Studies >> 200 Arts Building >> Edmonton, Alberta, Canada T6G 2E6 >> Phone: 780-492-6810 >> Web: http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/uvp/ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Natalie Kononenko Kule Chair of Ukrainian Ethnography Editor, Folklorica University of Alberta Modern Languages and Cultural Studies 200 Arts Building Edmonton, Alberta, Canada T6G 2E6 Phone: 780-492-6810 Web: http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/uvp/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Sun Jul 11 10:02:11 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 06:02:11 -0400 Subject: More antique Russian In-Reply-To: <1278682473.9f85a47cJ.Dunn@slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk> Message-ID: Thanks again to Will Ryan, John Dunn, and Ralph Cleminson for their additional contributions to the discussion. Certainly I had already subconsciously corrected "а 746 и 747 годах" to "в 746 и 747 годах"; sorry for not mentioning that. It's the kind of typo people often don't realize they've seen. As for the neuter agreement of numerals, that was news to me and very helpful. And the added colon -- "показал, что привезено де..." -- clarifies a major sticking point. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From davidagoldfarb at GMAIL.COM Sun Jul 11 11:25:05 2010 From: davidagoldfarb at GMAIL.COM (David Goldfarb) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 07:25:05 -0400 Subject: Seeking specialist on 19th-cen. Polish letters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If you don't find an answer on SEELANGS, I'd recommend asking on the Polish Studies Association listserv, which has more of a following among historians who may not be on SEELANGS. Information on the PSA and subscribing to the list may be found at-- http://history.lsa.umich.edu/PSA/listserv.htm Best, David A. Goldfarb Literary Curator Polish Cultural Institute 350 Fifth Avenue, Suite 4621 New York, NY 10118 -- tel. 212-239-7300, ext. 3002 fax 212-239-7577 http://www.polishculture-nyc.org/ -- http://www.davidagoldfarb.com On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 3:38 PM, Cynthia Vakareliyska wrote: > Can anyone refer me, **off-line**, to a historian or other specialist, preferably > a native Polish speaker, who has experience reading 19th-cen. Polish letters > handwritten by not very educated people? I have a number of PDFs of letters > written in Polish and containing both apparent Suwalki-area dialect lexemes and > certain graphemes that can't be deciphered by a host of people who have tried, > including native speakers. > > With thanks in advance, > > Cynthia Vakareliyska > > > Cynthia M. Vakareliyska > Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics > University of Oregon > Eugene, OR 97403 > vakarel at uoregon.edu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >  Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >  options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >                    http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU Sun Jul 11 18:20:43 2010 From: mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU (Melissa Smith) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 14:20:43 -0400 Subject: Elephant in the room Message-ID: While Russian language enrollments lately have been stable or even rising at the elementary level, I have found that among students in general education courses at my university, the perception of the importance of Russian language, culture, or even political influence has dropped drastically. I infer that intrinsic/intellectual curiosity remains, but for those with instrumental motivation, Russian is off the scale. The presence of "sleeper" spy cells, in my opinion, is not likely to change this. When I attended the Ohio Foreign Language Association meeting this spring, it appeared that Russian was not even on the radar screen in materials or approaches that were being marketed. Russian does not seem to have the sexy "otherness" that it has had for past generations. If I judge by my students in a "Foreign Film" class I teach, the Asian film industry has the cache, whether it be in Japanese anime or Chinese martial arts. The language interest seems to follow. Arabic appeals to the military and criminal justice students. We must hope that our LOVE will guide us... Melissa Smith On 7/10/10 6:20 PM, Beyer, Tom wrote: > Funding is not likely to be forthcoming, but news about things Russian, any > news has traditionally increased elementary Rusian enrollments for that > year. > > So plan on my work with the same resources. > > :-) > > > > > > On 7/10/10 5:25 PM, "Inna Caron" wrote: > > > Does anyone have any idea as to how this situation with the Russian spies may > > affect Russian language programs in the U.S. universities? Common sense > > suggests that we should see some increase in funding, but common sense doesn't > > always prevail in these matters, does it? > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------ Melissa T. Smith, Professor Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures Youngstown State University Youngstown, OH 44555 Tel: (330)941-3462 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hemyers at GMAIL.COM Mon Jul 12 09:21:20 2010 From: hemyers at GMAIL.COM (holly myers) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 16:21:20 +0700 Subject: Russian language schools in Kiev? Message-ID: Dear SEELANGS: An acquaintance plans to study Russian intensively in Kiev for a couple of months (August-September) and is looking for any recommendations or advice. His current level of Russian is intermediate. Please feel free to reply to this e-mail off-list: hemyers at gmail.com Thanks in advance, Holly ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From gladney at ILLINOIS.EDU Mon Jul 12 15:35:27 2010 From: gladney at ILLINOIS.EDU (Frank Gladney) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:35:27 -0500 Subject: walking, going Message-ID: Dear Russian Speakers, Here are four scenarios: 1. Ona shla po ulitse. 2. Ona khodila po ulitse. 3. Ona shla po parku. 4. Ona khodil po parku. Is it clear in each case what is going on? Spasibo zaranee, Frank Y. Gladney ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From greniers at GEORGETOWN.EDU Mon Jul 12 16:56:01 2010 From: greniers at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Svetlana Grenier) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 12:56:01 -0400 Subject: walking, going In-Reply-To: <20100712103527.CHD21804@expms1.cites.uiuc.edu> Message-ID: Yes, it is clear: in "shla" she was "walking down the street", "walking through the park"; in "khodila", she was "walking back and forth in the street" or "he was walking around in the park." Of course, if you add other words (say "chasto khodila") it would mean something different. At least, that's how it sounds to me! Svetlana Grenier gladney at ILLINOIS.EDU wrote: >Dear Russian Speakers, > >Here are four scenarios: > >1. Ona shla po ulitse. > >2. Ona khodila po ulitse. > >3. Ona shla po parku. > >4. Ona khodil po parku. > >Is it clear in each case what is going on? > >Spasibo zaranee, > >Frank Y. Gladney > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- Svetlana S. Grenier Associate Professor Department of Slavic Languages Box 571050 Georgetown University Washington, DC 20057-1050 202-687-6108 greniers at georgetown.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Mon Jul 12 17:08:50 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:08:50 -0400 Subject: walking, going In-Reply-To: <4C3B4921.4070802@georgetown.edu> Message-ID: Svetlana Grenier wrote: > Yes, it is clear: in "shla" she was "walking down the street", "walking > through the park"; in "khodila", she was "walking back and forth in the > street" or "he was walking around in the park." Of course, if you add > other words (say "chasto khodila") it would mean something different. > At least, that's how it sounds to me! > > Svetlana Grenier > > gladney at ILLINOIS.EDU wrote: > >> Dear Russian Speakers, >> >> Here are four scenarios: >> >> 1. Ona shla po ulitse. >> >> 2. Ona khodila po ulitse. >> >> 3. Ona shla po parku. >> >> 4. Ona khodil po parku. >> >> Is it clear in each case what is going on? In every case, there are inherent ambiguities that the reader must fill in as the context warrants, or leave open if he doesn't care. Is the motion linear, circuitous, oscillating, etc.? Is the "she" a woman or a girl? Is the street broad or narrow? Was she walking on the sidewalk or in the street? Some parks (typically beside streams) are long and narrow -- was the motion along the length of the park? So the question can only be answered if Frank will give us a definition of "clear" that suits his purpose. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From oothappam at earthlink.net Mon Jul 12 17:47:12 2010 From: oothappam at earthlink.net (oothappam) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:47:12 -0700 Subject: walking, going Message-ID: It's nice that this appeared on the group list today,as it's precisely what I've been attempting to learn for the past few days. My book (Live From Russia) states: Used with verbs of motion, the preposition PO + dative means "around" or "along".Idti meaning walking in one direction, and hodit meaning walking in more than one direction, random motion, a round trip, or simply naming the habit of walking.These verbs are imperfective, too, so it has to be more of a past progressive feeling, not absolute past and done with. So, it seems to me that the sentences mean: 1. Ona shla po ulitse. She was walking in one direction along the street. 2. Ona khodila po ulitse.She was walking around the street, kind of wandering,looking around. 3. Ona shla po parku.She was was walking around the park, in one direction-from one end to the other, once.This sounds like she was at the edge or one side of it, to me. 4. Ona khodila po parku. She was walking around in the park leisurely, with no real purpose. --- That is my VERY rudimentary understanding so far! Nola -----Original Message----- >From: "Paul B. Gallagher" >Sent: Jul 12, 2010 10:08 AM >To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] walking, going > >Svetlana Grenier wrote: > >> Yes, it is clear: in "shla" she was "walking down the street", "walking >> through the park"; in "khodila", she was "walking back and forth in the >> street" or "he was walking around in the park." Of course, if you add >> other words (say "chasto khodila") it would mean something different. >> At least, that's how it sounds to me! >> >> Svetlana Grenier >> >> gladney at ILLINOIS.EDU wrote: >> >>> Dear Russian Speakers, >>> >>> Here are four scenarios: >>> >>> 1. Ona shla po ulitse. >>> >>> 2. Ona khodila po ulitse. >>> >>> 3. Ona shla po parku. >>> >>> 4. Ona khodil po parku. >>> >>> Is it clear in each case what is going on? > >In every case, there are inherent ambiguities that the reader must fill >in as the context warrants, or leave open if he doesn't care. Is the >motion linear, circuitous, oscillating, etc.? Is the "she" a woman or a >girl? Is the street broad or narrow? Was she walking on the sidewalk or >in the street? Some parks (typically beside streams) are long and narrow >-- was the motion along the length of the park? > >So the question can only be answered if Frank will give us a definition >of "clear" that suits his purpose. > >-- >War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. >-- >Paul B. Gallagher >pbg translations, inc. >"Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" >http://pbg-translations.com > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From nflrc at HAWAII.EDU Tue Jul 13 00:04:00 2010 From: nflrc at HAWAII.EDU (National Foreign Language Resource Center) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 14:04:00 -1000 Subject: 2nd Call for Proposals: 2nd International Conference on Language Documentation & Conservation (ICLDC) Message-ID: Apologies for any cross-postings . . . 2nd International Conference on Language Documentation and Conservation: Strategies for Moving Forward. Honolulu, Hawai'i, February 11-13, 2011 http://nflrc.hawaii.edu/ICLDC/2011 The 2nd International Conference on Language Documentation and Conservation (ICLDC) will be held February 11-13, 2011, at the Hawai‘i Imin International Conference Center on the University of Hawai‘i at Manoa campus. Two days of optional technical training workshops will precede the conference (Feb 9-10 - see details below). An optional Hilo Field Study (on the Big Island of Hawai'i) to visit Hawaiian language revitalization programs in action will immediately follow the conference (Feb. 14-15). The 1st ICLDC, with its theme “Supporting Small Languages Together," underscored the need for communities, linguists, and other academics to work in close collaboration. The theme of the 2nd ICLDC is “Strategies for Moving Forward." We aim to build on the strong momentum created at the 1st ICLDC and to discuss research and revitalization approaches yielding rich, accessible records which can benefit both the field of language documentation and speech communities. We hope you will join us. TOPICS We welcome abstracts on best practices for language documentation and conservation moving forward, which may include: - Archiving matters - Community-based documentation/conservation initiatives - Data management - Fieldwork methods - Ethical issues - Interdisciplinary fieldwork - Language planning - Lexicography - Methods of assessing ethnolinguistic vitality - Orthography design - Reference grammar design - Reports on language maintenance, preservation, and revitalization efforts - Teaching/learning small languages - Technology in documentation – methods and pitfalls - Topics in areal language documentation - Training in documentation methods – beyond the university This is not an exhaustive list, and individual proposals on topics outside these areas are warmly welcomed. ABSTRACT SUBMISSION Abstracts should be submitted in English, but presentations can be in any language. We particularly welcome presentations in languages of the region discussed. Authors may submit no more than one individual and one joint (co-authored) proposal. ABSTRACTS ARE DUE BY AUGUST 31, 2010, with notification of acceptance by September 30, 2010. We ask for ABSTRACTS OF NO MORE THAN 400 WORDS for online publication so that conference participants can have a good idea of the content of your paper and a 50-WORD SUMMARY for inclusion in the conference program. All abstracts will be submitted to blind peer review by international experts on the topic. See ICLDC conference website for ONLINE PROPOSAL SUBMISSION FORM. We will only be accepting proposal submissions for papers or posters. **Note for students**: Scholarships for up to $1,500 will be awarded to the six best student abstracts submitted to help defray travel expenses to come and present at the conference. (Only U.S.-based students are eligible for this scholarship due to funding source regulations, and only one scholarship awarded per abstract.) If you wish to be considered for a scholarship, please select the "Yes" button on the proposal submission form. Selected papers from the conference will be invited to submit to the journal Language Documentation & Conservation for publication. (Most presentations from the 1st ICLDC were recorded and can be heard as podcasts here: http://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/handle/10125/5961.) PRESENTATION FORMATS - Papers will be allowed 20 minutes for presentation with 10 minutes of  question time. - Posters will be on display throughout the conference. Poster presentations will run during the lunch breaks. PLENARY SPEAKERS * Keren D. Rice, University of Toronto * Wayan Arka, Australian National University * Larry Kimura, University of Hawai‘i at Hilo INVITED COLLOQUIA * The Use of Film in Language Documentation (Organizers: Rozenn Milin and Melissa Bisagni) * Grammaticography (Organizer: Sebastian Nordhoff) * Colloquium on Dictionaries and Endangered Languages: Technology, Revitalization, and Collaboration (Organizer: Sarah Ogilvie) OPTIONAL PRE-CONFERENCE WORKSHOPS (TENTATIVE SCHEDULE) Pre-conference workshops will be an additional $20/workshop. The number of spaces available per workshop will be limited and can be signed up for via the conference registration form, available in September. Wednesday Feb 9th 9:00-12:00 - Flex (Beth Bryson) - Elan (Andrea Berez) - Advanced Toolbox (Albert Bickford) Wednesday Feb 9th 1:00-4:00 - Psycholinguistic techniques for the assessment of language strength (Amy Schafer and William O'Grady) - Flex (repeat offering) (Beth Bryson) - Video/film in langdoc 1- use of video for langdoc (TBA) Thursday Feb 10th, 9:00-12:00 - Video/film in langdoc 2 - use of video for langdoc (TBA) - Elan (repeat offering) (Andrea Berez) - LEXUS and VICOS - lexicon and conceptual spaces (Jacquelijn Ringersma) Thursday Feb 10th, 1:00-4:00 - Archiving challenges and metadata (Paul Trilsbeek) - Language acquisition for revitalization specialists (William O'Grady and Virginia Yip) - Advanced Toolbox (repeat offering) (Albert Bickford) ADVISORY COMMITTEE Helen Aristar-Dry (LinguistList, Eastern Michigan University) Peter Austin (SOAS, London) Linda Barwick (University of Sydney) Steven Bird (University of Melbourne) Phil Cash Cash (University of Arizona) Lise Dobrin (University of Virginia) Arienne Dwyer (University of Kansas) Margaret Florey (Resource Network for Linguistic Diversity) Carol Genetti (University of California, Santa Barbara) Spike Gildea (University of Oregon) Jeff Good (SUNY Buffalo) Joseph Grimes (SIL International) Colette Grinevald (University of Lyon) Nikolaus Himmelmann (Institut für Allgemeine Sprachwissenschaft Westfälische Wilhelms-Universität Münster) Leanne Hinton (University of California, Berkeley) Gary Holton (Alaska Native Language Center) Will McClatchey (University of Hawai'i) Marianne Mithun (University of California, Santa Barbara) Claire Moyse-Faurie (LACITO, CNRS) Toshihide Nakayama (Tokyo University of Foreign Studies) Keren D. Rice (University of Toronto) Norvin Richards (Massachusetts Institute of Technology) ************************************************************************* N          National Foreign Language Resource Center   F         University of Hawai'i   L        1859 East-West Road, #106    R       Honolulu HI 96822 C      voice: (808) 956-9424, fax: (808) 956-5983            email: nflrc at hawaii.edu VISIT OUR WEBSITE!   http://nflrc.hawaii.edu ************************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From alexander.burry at GMAIL.COM Tue Jul 13 00:41:29 2010 From: alexander.burry at GMAIL.COM (Alexander Burry) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:41:29 -0500 Subject: Departmental Chairs Meeting, AATSEEL 2011 Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, AATSEEL would like to announce a departmental chairs meeting that will take place at the upcoming conference in Pasadena, CA. The meeting, sponsored by Tom Seifrid and Susan McReynolds, will be held Friday, January 7, 2011, 5:00-7:00 pm. This event will enable chairs to share information and strategies on a wide variety of topics. Questions to be addressed may include, but are not limited to: --How can chairs best advocate for students and faculty within our home institutions? What is the guiding role, if any, of chairs in the larger curricular revisions of the college or university, and how can Slavic departments�traditionally small, or merged with other national languages�make themselves most effectively felt? --What forms of collaboration with other disciplines have proven fruitful? What forms have not? What, if any, are the qualifications we should look for in each party? How might such collaboration be fairly credited and assessed? --How can chairs have an impact on the conditions of adjunct faculty? Please contact Tom Seifrid (seifrid at usc.edu) or Susan McReynolds (s-mcreynolds at northwestern.edu) with suggestions for further topics. We look forward to seeing you in Pasadena. Best wishes, Alexander Burry Chair, AATSEEL Program Committee ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From keyboard at SHKLAR.COM Tue Jul 13 09:45:46 2010 From: keyboard at SHKLAR.COM (Gene Shklar) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 02:45:46 -0700 Subject: walking, going Message-ID: That is generally correct. And both verbs are imperfective in aspect. Идти (and the Ukrainian "іти") generally means "to go" to a destination, either to a destination specified in the sentence or to a destination implied by context, without a means of transportation implied unless specified. Ходить (and the Ukrainian "ходити") generally means "to walk" or "to walk around", with no destination implied unless specified in the sentence. Some examples in Ukrainian: Вона йшла до церкви трамвайом. She used to go to church by streetcar. Вона йшла до церкви пішки. She used to go to church on foot. Вона ходила до церкви. She used to walk to (to attend) church. Вона ходила до них щодня. She used to walk to (to visit) them every day. Вона ходила по парку щодня. She used to walk around (walk in) the park every day. /Gene Shklar ----- Original Message ----- From: "oothappam" Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 10:47 AM Subject: Re: walking, going It's nice that this appeared on the group list today,as it's precisely what I've been attempting to learn for the past few days. My book (Live From Russia) states: Used with verbs of motion, the preposition PO + dative means "around" or "along".Idti meaning walking in one direction, and hodit meaning walking in more than one direction, random motion, a round trip, or simply naming the habit of walking.These verbs are imperfective, too, so it has to be more of a past progressive feeling, not absolute past and done with. So, it seems to me that the sentences mean: 1. Ona shla po ulitse. She was walking in one direction along the street. 2. Ona khodila po ulitse.She was walking around the street, kind of wandering,looking around. 3. Ona shla po parku.She was was walking around the park, in one direction-from one end to the other, once.This sounds like she was at the edge or one side of it, to me. 4. Ona khodila po parku. She was walking around in the park leisurely, with no real purpose. --- That is my VERY rudimentary understanding so far! Nola -----Original Message----- >From: "Paul B. Gallagher" >Sent: Jul 12, 2010 10:08 AM >To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] walking, going > >Svetlana Grenier wrote: > >> Yes, it is clear: in "shla" she was "walking down the street", "walking >> through the park"; in "khodila", she was "walking back and forth in the >> street" or "he was walking around in the park." Of course, if you add >> other words (say "chasto khodila") it would mean something different. >> At least, that's how it sounds to me! >> >> Svetlana Grenier >> >> gladney at ILLINOIS.EDU wrote: >> >>> Dear Russian Speakers, >>> >>> Here are four scenarios: >>> >>> 1. Ona shla po ulitse. >>> >>> 2. Ona khodila po ulitse. >>> >>> 3. Ona shla po parku. >>> >>> 4. Ona khodil po parku. >>> >>> Is it clear in each case what is going on? > >In every case, there are inherent ambiguities that the reader must fill >in as the context warrants, or leave open if he doesn't care. Is the >motion linear, circuitous, oscillating, etc.? Is the "she" a woman or a >girl? Is the street broad or narrow? Was she walking on the sidewalk or >in the street? Some parks (typically beside streams) are long and narrow >-- was the motion along the length of the park? > >So the question can only be answered if Frank will give us a definition >of "clear" that suits his purpose. > >-- >War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. >-- >Paul B. Gallagher >pbg translations, inc. >"Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" >http://pbg-translations.com > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From a.schonle at QMUL.AC.UK Tue Jul 13 11:48:33 2010 From: a.schonle at QMUL.AC.UK (Andreas Schonle) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 12:48:33 +0100 Subject: Conference on architectural preservation in Russian - Call for Papers Message-ID: Call for Papers GLOBAL ASPIRATION AND PASTICHE IDENTITY: ARCHITECTURAL PRESERVATION IN RUSSIA Inter-disciplinary conference Queen Mary, University of London 6-7 November 2010 Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, major Russian cities have been undergoing rapid development, which has led to unprecedented destruction of the architectural heritage. In two reports and through multiple appeals, the Moscow Architecture Preservation Society has campaigned vigorously to draw attention to the on-going demolition of architectural landmarks, from seventeenth-century mansions to Constructivist masterpieces to grand Stalinist hotels. Owing to the practice of replacing historical buildings with modern structures built in concrete and disguised by a mock façade in historical style, the cityscape of the Russian capital increasingly looks like a theme park. In St Petersburg, mass demolition has not reached these levels, but unsympathetic new building has placed the fabric of the historic city under threat. There is an urgent need to assess the deep-seated historical causes of this state of affairs and to explore new ways to address the situation. This conference proposes therefore to convene an international group of academics and preservationists to investigate the historical context of this crisis, examine current practices, and identify opportunities for future action. Our premise is that the roots of this crisis lie not only in current political and economic factors, but also in a historical background that needs to be better understood. It is hoped that through multi-disciplinary dialogue between historians, art and architecture historians, anthropologists, literary scholars, and preservationists the contextual embedding of attitudes regarding architectural preservation can be revealed. Particular emphasis will be placed on the Orthodox Church's attitude to the national heritage, as practices with regard to the restoration and reconstruction of churches have arguably set an influential precedent for preservation in contemporary Russia. Proposals for talks (20-25 min.) that specifically address any of the following themes are particularly welcome: -. Attitudes toward ruins, conservation, and restoration at various historical junctures -. Preservation in a global world -. Preservation, historical consciousness, and nationalist pride -. Preservation and restoration from the standpoint of the Orthodox Church -. Contemporary architecture and the national heritage -. The culture of sham facades and pastiche buildings: historical background and contemporary realizations -. Preservation debates as incipient civil society. Short proposals (250 words maximum) should be submitted as an attachment to a.schonle at qmul.ac.uk by Sunday 5 September 2010. Further information will be available in due course at http://www.sllf.qmul.ac.uk/russian/ The conference is organized by Prof. Andreas Schönle (QMUL) and Prof. Catriona Kelly (Oxford, New College). ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rifkin at TCNJ.EDU Tue Jul 13 12:08:08 2010 From: rifkin at TCNJ.EDU (Benjamin Rifkin) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 08:08:08 -0400 Subject: Research on Study Abroad Message-ID: Dear Colleagues: For those of you who are fighting the good fight to get more of our students on study abroad --- The research at the University of Georgia system reported here is good ammunition: http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/07/13/abroad Best wishes to all, Ben Rifkin The College of New Jersey ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Philippe.FRISON at COE.INT Tue Jul 13 12:44:42 2010 From: Philippe.FRISON at COE.INT (FRISON Philippe) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 14:44:42 +0200 Subject: Operotdel In-Reply-To: A<4C365D7E.8020101@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: I wish to thank all those who reply to my post, especially Hugh McLean and Paul Gallagher In fact, "Operotdel" is a structure in Uzbek camps. I always tend to forget that in a society where ihabitants are be controlled by a political police even prisons have to get their own surveillance unit... Therefore, in French, an appropriate equivalent would be "Sécurité", which can imply such an element. Regards Philippe -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Hugh McLean Sent: Friday 9 July 2010 01:22 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Operotdel Vera V. Carpovich's book Solzhenitsyn's Peculiar Vocabulary (1976) does not list 'operotdel' among various other derivatives of 'oper.' which itself is regarded as a contraction of 'operativnyj upolnomochennyj, nachal'nik osvedomitelej',defined as 'local secret-police officer.' She gives 'operativnik' as a synonym of 'oper' and 'operchast' as 'local secret police office'. She does include 'operchekotdel' as a contraction of operativno-chekistkaja chast', with the meaning 'Operations Dept' (of secret police). > The term seems to be in use within the KGB-FSB and in penitentiary contexts > > It seems connected to the rather vague оперативный (operativny), of which I am > really desperate to find appropriate equivalent (the calque 'operational' does > not fit in most contexts). > > Thank you in advance for any help > > Philippe Frison > (Strasbourg, france) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bstiner at BRYNMAWR.EDU Tue Jul 13 12:47:57 2010 From: bstiner at BRYNMAWR.EDU (Billie Jo Stiner) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 08:47:57 -0400 Subject: searching for apartment in Moscow In-Reply-To: <1096602057.2316.1279025105120.JavaMail.root@ganesh.brynmawr.edu> Message-ID: I am traveling to Moscow as an independent scholar and am looking for a small furnished apartment to rent from August to December 2010, preferably near the metro. If you have any information regarding available apartments during this time, please contact Billie Jo at bstiner at brynmawr.edu. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jwilson at SRAS.ORG Tue Jul 13 13:03:04 2010 From: jwilson at SRAS.ORG (Josh Wilson) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 17:03:04 +0400 Subject: Jury Award Announced for Vestnik Message-ID: Dear SEELANGers, For those of you hoping to encourage study abroad and original research by your students: In celebration of the return of VESTNIK, The Journal of Russian and Asian Studies, the world's first online journal focused on showcasing student research on Eurasia, the editorial board is pleased to announce that a $200 Jury Award will be given to the most interesting, original, and well-written paper published in the next edition of VESTNIK. Details on the award and the call for papers can be found on our site here: http://www.sras.org/call_for_papers_vestnik SRAS is also pleased to announce that the Charles Braver Language Exploration Grant for Spring, 2011 will award $1000 to a promising student looking to study Kyrgyz, Russian, or Chinese on our programs. Deadline is Oct 1, 2010. More information can be found on our site here: http://www.sras.org/language_grants_russia The SRAS Research Abroad Grant will award $1000 to upperclassman and graduate students who will conduct research in Russia or Kyrgyzstan over the 2010-2011 school year. Deadline: Sept 17, 2010. More Information can be found on our site here: http://www.sras.org/research_grants_russia And, as always, lots of info about funding for study abroad can be found here: http://www.sras.org/grants_and_scholarships_for_russia and information about current open cycles can be found here: http://www.sras.org/scholarships_for_russia I hope you are all enjoying your summer! Sincerely, Josh Wilson Assistant Director The School of Russian and Asian Studies Editor in Chief Vestnik, The Journal of Russian and Asian Studies SRAS.org jwilson at sras.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From milagrinshpan at YAHOO.COM Tue Jul 13 14:24:47 2010 From: milagrinshpan at YAHOO.COM (Lyudmila Grinshpan) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 07:24:47 -0700 Subject: walking, going In-Reply-To: <20100712103527.CHD21804@expms1.cites.uiuc.edu> Message-ID: --- On Mon, 7/12/10, gladney at ILLINOIS.EDU wrote: From: gladney at ILLINOIS.EDU Subject: [SEELANGS] walking, going To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Date: Monday, July 12, 2010, 10:35 AM Dear Russian Speakers, Here are four scenarios: 1. Ona shla po ulitse. She was walking along the street. 2. Ona khodila po ulitse. More context would not be amiss. 3. Ona shla po parku. She was walking (somewhere) through the park. 4. Ona khodila po parku. She was walking in the park. Is it clear in each case what is going on? Context never hurts the understanding. Spasibo zaranee, Frank Y. Gladney ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription   options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at:                     http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rifkin at TCNJ.EDU Tue Jul 13 16:47:19 2010 From: rifkin at TCNJ.EDU (Benjamin Rifkin) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 12:47:19 -0400 Subject: Translation INTO OCS Message-ID: Dear SEELANGers: A request from a colleague - Can anyone please provide me with a translation from English into OCS of the phrase Here lies the body of ---- a slave of God With thanks, Ben Rifkin The College of New Jersey ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From s.tomelleri at UNIMC.IT Tue Jul 13 17:48:29 2010 From: s.tomelleri at UNIMC.IT (Put Your Name Here) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 19:48:29 +0200 Subject: Translation INTO OCS In-Reply-To: <38F553E8-E6B7-4564-A0E9-1E33541EDF75@tcnj.edu> Message-ID: This could be a Russian (Church Slavonic) equivalent: здесь (сьде) почиет тело... раба божьего V. S. T. Quoting Benjamin Rifkin : > Dear SEELANGers: > > A request from a colleague - > > Can anyone please provide me with a translation from English into OCS > of the phrase > > Here lies the body of ---- a slave of God > > With thanks, > > Ben Rifkin > The College of New Jersey > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Ralph.Cleminson at PORT.AC.UK Wed Jul 14 10:58:17 2010 From: Ralph.Cleminson at PORT.AC.UK (Ralph Cleminson) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 11:58:17 +0100 Subject: Translation INTO OCS Message-ID: Do you really mean Old Church Slavonic, or Church Slavonic? And if the latter, of what tradition and period? A fairly standard Russian CS version would be Здѣсь почiетъ (или: покоится) тѣло раба Божiяго NN., which is the sort of thing you can see in Russian cemetaries. Or, with a stricter orthography, Здѣ́сь (или: Здѣ̀) почетъ (или: покится) тѣ́ло раб Бж҃їѧгѡ NN. (This may not be displayed correctly in all browsers. The encoding is Unicode, and of course it helps to have a decent Old Cyrillic font.) >>> Benjamin Rifkin 13/07/10 5:48 PM >>> Dear SEELANGers: A request from a colleague - Can anyone please provide me with a translation from English into OCS of the phrase Here lies the body of ---- a slave of God With thanks, Ben Rifkin The College of New Jersey ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rifkin at TCNJ.EDU Wed Jul 14 12:37:50 2010 From: rifkin at TCNJ.EDU (Benjamin Rifkin) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 08:37:50 -0400 Subject: Translation INTO OCS In-Reply-To: <4C3DA65A020000420008C525@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk> Message-ID: Thanks to all for your suggestions. I've shared them with my colleague and he's happy to have the information. Sincerely, Ben Rifkin On Jul 14, 2010, at 6:58 AM, Ralph Cleminson wrote: > Do you really mean Old Church Slavonic, or Church Slavonic? And if > the > latter, of what tradition and period? > > A fairly standard Russian CS version would be Здѣсь > почiетъ (или: > покоится) тѣло раба Божiяго NN., which is the > sort of thing you can see in Russian cemetaries. Or, with a stricter > orthography, Здѣ́сь (или: Здѣ̀) почетъ (или: > покится) тѣ́ло раб Бж҃їѧгѡ > NN. (This may not be displayed correctly in all browsers. The > encoding > is Unicode, and of course it helps to have a decent Old Cyrillic > font.) > >>>> Benjamin Rifkin 13/07/10 5:48 PM >>> > Dear SEELANGers: > > A request from a colleague - > > Can anyone please provide me with a translation from English into OCS > of the phrase > > Here lies the body of ---- a slave of God > > With thanks, > > Ben Rifkin > The College of New Jersey > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From natalia.pylypiuk at UALBERTA.CA Thu Jul 15 01:32:53 2010 From: natalia.pylypiuk at UALBERTA.CA (Natalia Pylypiuk) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 19:32:53 -0600 Subject: Save Comparative Literature at the University of Toronto In-Reply-To: <20100713215601.10813xzwa1nc9zs4@webmail.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I draw your attention to the following, rather disturbing news from the University of Toronto: University of Toronto plan decimates languages, humanities programs BY JEANNINE M. PITAS | JULY 12, 2010 http://rabble.ca/news/2010/07/university-toronto-plan-decimates-languages-humanities-programs I also draw your attention to the following petition protesting the "disestablishment" of the Centre for Comparative Literature at the University of Toronto: http://www.petitiononline.com/complit/petition.html Please sign it, if you support the idea of studying literatures from a comparative perspective, and feel free to circulate the petition widely. Thank you and best wishes, Natalia Pylypiuk, PhD, Professor Ukrainian Culture, Language & Literature Program [www.arts.ualberta.ca/~ukraina/] Modern Languages & Cultural Studies 200 Arts, University of Alberta Edmonton, AB, Canada T6G 2E6 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK Sun Jul 18 09:57:23 2010 From: Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK (Alexandra Smith) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 10:57:23 +0100 Subject: 2 interesting programmes on Sedakova Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Those of you who are interested in Olga Sedakova, Russian post-Soviet culture and translation might be interested in watching 2 recent programmes featuring Sedakova. One of them is dedicated to her translations of Paul Celan into Russian. The address is here: http://www.polit.ru/culture/2010/06/30/videon_celan.html The second programme includes Sedakova's views on Soviet underground poetry, post-Soviet culture and Christianity: http://video.yandex.ru/users/neboslov/view/76/ All best, Alexandra ------------------------------------ Alexandra Smith (PhD, University of London) Reader in Russian Studies Department of European Languages and Cultures School of Languages, Literatures and Cultures The University of Edinburgh David Hume Tower George Square Edinburgh EH8 9JX UK tel. +44-(0)131-6511381 fax: +44- (0)131 -651 -1482 e-mail: Alexandra.Smith at ed.ac.uk -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From birgitbeumers at YAHOO.CO.UK Sun Jul 18 14:40:55 2010 From: birgitbeumers at YAHOO.CO.UK (Birgit Beumers) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 09:40:55 -0500 Subject: KinoKultura 29 Message-ID: KinoKultura has the pleasure to announce its 29th issue (July 2010) with the following content available at http://www.kinokultura.com/2010/issue29.shtml Articles Aliya Moldalieva: "Topical Reflections from Twenty Years Ago" (Ailanpa, 1989) Festival Report Birgit Beumers: "Suzdal 2010. The Business of Animation" Film Reviews Dmitrii D'iachenko: What Men Talk About by Lena Doubivko Nikolai Dreiden: Angel’s Aisle by Arlene Forman Feliks Mikhailov: Jolly Fellows by Marko Dumančić Andrei Razenkov: Kromov” by Jamila Nazyrova Aleksandr Rogozhkin: To Live for Another by Liudmila Basmakova El’dar Salavatov: Antikiller D.K. by Florian Weinhold Pavel Sanaev: Hooked by Volha Isakava Aleksandr Voitinskii and Dmitrii Kiselev: Black Lightning by Muireann Maguire Television and Documentaries: Valeriia Gai-Germanika: School II (TV series) by Joe Crescente Igor’ Maiboroda: Rerberg and Tarkovsky (doc) by Robert Bird Georgii Gitis: New Adventures of Alenushka and Yerioma (animation) by Natalie Kononenko Egor Mikhalkov-Konchalovskii: Our Masha (animation) by Erin Alpert Central Asia and Caucasus Region: Ayaz Salayev: Anchor Man (Azerbaijan) by Thomas Welsford Enjoy the issue and have a great summer! We always welcome new reviewers and suggestions for films to review! The KiKu team ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kpking at MTHOLYOKE.EDU Mon Jul 19 06:59:13 2010 From: kpking at MTHOLYOKE.EDU (kpking at MTHOLYOKE.EDU) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 02:59:13 -0400 Subject: Apartment in Brno, available September 1 In-Reply-To: <54DA43C2-8ADE-40E6-9C34-B2E535767E10@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: Newly renovated apartment in the center of Brno, 3 rooms + large kitchen and bath. Furnished and equipped. September 1, academic year rental. Contact Katya King at allkings at email.cz ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mm504 at CAM.AC.UK Mon Jul 19 16:24:02 2010 From: mm504 at CAM.AC.UK (Muireann Maguire) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 11:24:02 -0500 Subject: Seeking Accommodation in Moscow, September 2010 Message-ID: Dear SEELANGS colleagues, A historian friend asked me to post the following on his behalf. Please reply directly to him off-list at was23 at cam.ac.uk, if you can help. Regards, Muireann ****I'm a PhD student heading to Russia for a month of research this fall, and I'm looking for furnished accommodation--a room in a shared flat, apartment sublet, or perhaps homestay--in Moscow between about September 6th and October 5th of this year. I would prefer to be close to public transport, as I will be working at the RGVIA and AVPRI archives, both on metro lines. Ideally I'd like to pay around £650 for the month but would appreciate any leads. Thank you! Will Smiley PhD student, Asian & Middle Eastern Studies Queens' College, Cambridge (+44) 07531608 was23 at cam.ac.uk******** ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hokanson at UOREGON.EDU Mon Jul 19 19:41:58 2010 From: hokanson at UOREGON.EDU (Katya Hokanson) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 12:41:58 -0700 Subject: U of Toronto amalgamation also affects Slavic Languages, other languages/programs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The "disestablishment" of Toronto's Comparative Literature Department also affects the Slavic Languages department, which I believe will also mean they can no longer admit graduate students, and many feel that literature will essentially be taught in service to language. The article notes: The other departments affected are: Italian, German, East Asian Studies, Spanish and Portuguese, and Slavic languages. Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2010/07/13/nb-northrop-frye-centre-close.html#socialcomments #ixzz0u9tcybpX I have appended a petition from the similarly-affected East Asian Studies program at the University of Toronto to indicate their concerns. Katya Hokanson University of Oregon To: The Dean of the Faculty of Arts & Sciences A Strategic Planning Committee at the University of Toronto has recently proposed an amalgamation of the East Asian, Italian, German, Slavic, Spanish & Portuguese, and Comparative Literature Departments into a new "School of Languages and Literatures." This merger would effectively mean dissolution of the East Asian Studies Department by moving our language programmes and few literature professors into the new school while the remaining faculty members would be transferred to other disciplines. The EAS program at U of T would cease to exist. We, the undersigned, are strongly opposed to this proposal. We predict it will harm both the university's reputation as a whole and the undergraduate educational experience. As easily one of the largest EAS departments in North America, the current enrolment in the undergraduate EAS program is roughly the same size as the other four departments involved in this proposal combined. Yet in the new school the East Asian unit would have only five professors, less than one third of the number in each of the other four departments. Not only does this cause an imbalance amongst the school itself, but a broad School of Languages and Literatures would simply not encourage the number of enrolments that are currently attracted by the renowned East Asian Studies department. We are against this proposed departure from the EAS program's mandate of providing a platform for students to do critical humanities research on Asian society and culture. Amalgamating EAS into a School of Languages and Literatures and transferring remaining courses to other disciplines would effectively destroy opportunities for students at the University of Toronto to do the type of humanities research on Asia that they have been highly well-regarded for in the past. Not only would undergraduates lose the opportunity to engage in humanities study of Asia, but there would no longer be a graduate program that would attract the top level of Asian studies scholarship currently at U of T, or allow those students to receive grants from Asian foundations. We are also concerned for the status of literature within this school, as it appears that literature will become primarily a tool in the study of language. Language alone would essentially become the primary mode of study of Asia, with all other components of study becoming secondary. This is an antiquated method of regional study and one that the faculty has diverged from in the past decade. It is this change that has attracted esteemed faculty to the university, and caused an increase in enrolment numbers, as well as earned respect from the wider community. The East Asian Studies department at U of T is widely recognized and respected amongst global universities, which has allowed it to recruit professors at the top of their field from all over the world. If U of T no longer has an East Asian Studies department, it will be impossible for the university to attract those kinds of professors when in competition with other universities who still have autonomous academic departments for Asian studies. Also, if our current professors decide to stay at UofT despite these changes, they will be overwhelmed by larger departments, unable to offer advanced courses in their specialties and leaving students with far fewer courses available to them. For these reasons we strongly protest the dissolution of East Asian Studies at the University of Toronto. Sincerely, The Undersigned M, SEELANGS automatic digest system wrote: > There is 1 message totalling 44 lines in this issue. > > Topics of the day: > > 1. Save Comparative Literature at the University of Toronto > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 19:32:53 -0600 > From: Natalia Pylypiuk > Subject: Save Comparative Literature at the University of Toronto > > Dear Colleagues, > > I draw your attention to the following, rather disturbing news from > the University of Toronto: > > University of Toronto plan decimates languages, humanities programs > BY JEANNINE M. PITAS > | JULY 12, 2010 > > http://rabble.ca/news/2010/07/university-toronto-plan-decimates-languages-humanities-programs > > I also draw your attention to the following petition protesting the > "disestablishment" of the Centre for Comparative Literature at the > University of Toronto: > http://www.petitiononline.com/complit/petition.html > > Please sign it, if you support the idea of studying literatures from a > comparative perspective, and feel free to circulate the petition > widely. > > Thank you and best wishes, > > > Natalia Pylypiuk, PhD, Professor > Ukrainian Culture, Language & Literature Program > [www.arts.ualberta.ca/~ukraina/] > Modern Languages & Cultural Studies > 200 Arts, University of Alberta > Edmonton, AB, Canada T6G 2E6 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------ > > End of SEELANGS Digest - 14 Jul 2010 to 15 Jul 2010 (#2010-235) > *************************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Mon Jul 19 21:29:03 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 22:29:03 +0100 Subject: Bronze Horseman Message-ID: Hi Folks, Can anyone point me to a website with the Bronze Horseman poem, in Russian (preferably also with an English translation), with the stresses accented? Spasibo! Stephanie ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! FIRST SALE: 11/13/09! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ Got Your Spoon? Find out what they're all about (and find out a little about me too!) http://www.butyoudontlooksick.com/the_spoon_theory/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From john at RUSLAN.CO.UK Mon Jul 19 21:56:32 2010 From: john at RUSLAN.CO.UK (John Langran) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 22:56:32 +0100 Subject: Bronze Horseman Message-ID: I have an interactive version using the Ruslan CDRom template. Learners can click on the verses and hear the recording while they see the text. There are vocabularies, illustrations and exercises, and there is a screen-by-screen translation. We deliberately left out the stress marks. They are not really needed if the learner has the recording and the text at the same time. Details at www.ruslan.co.uk/advanced.htm John Langran www.ruslan.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephanie Briggs" To: Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 10:29 PM Subject: [SEELANGS] Bronze Horseman > Hi Folks, > > Can anyone point me to a website with the Bronze Horseman poem, in Russian > (preferably also with an English translation), with the stresses accented? > Spasibo! > > Stephanie > > ***************************** > ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs > http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ > > Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! > FIRST SALE: 11/13/09! > http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ > > Got Your Spoon? Find out what they're all about (and find out a little > about > me too!) > http://www.butyoudontlooksick.com/the_spoon_theory/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ieubanks at pushkiniana.org Tue Jul 20 01:50:05 2010 From: ieubanks at pushkiniana.org (Ivan S. Eubanks) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 21:50:05 -0400 Subject: Call for Submissions Message-ID: Dear SEELANGS Members, The 2011 volume of /The Pushkin Review / Пушкинский вестник/ will feature a section devoted to Aleksandr Griboedov, guest edited by Angela Brintlinger. We welcome the submission of essays on any aspect of Griboedov's life and works as well as translations of his writings. Essays may be written in English or Russian. Translations should be in English. To submit work, please attach it to an email as a Microsoft Word document (.doc, or .docx), a Rich Text Format document (.rtf) or an Open Office document (.odt) and send it to Ivan Eubanks (ieubanks at pushkiniana.org) and/or Lina Steiner (lsteiner at uchicago.edu) by January 25, 2011. We also welcome queries, but they should be sent well in advance of the January deadline. All the best, -- Ivan S. Eubanks /Pushkin Review / Пушкинский вестник/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From donna.orwin at UTORONTO.CA Tue Jul 20 03:58:15 2010 From: donna.orwin at UTORONTO.CA (Donna Orwin) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 23:58:15 -0400 Subject: U of Toronto In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I am writing to respond to a recent posting on SEELANGS about the future of Toronto's program in Slavic. We appreciate colleagues' expressions of concern but would like to clarify the situation. Our university is in the process of a reorganization of several language and literature departments in which our department is involved. We have been assured that the university is committed to the continuation and even the strengthening of our programs on both the undergraduate and the graduate level. In the midst of this process, we would welcome testimonials sent to our Dean of Arts and Sciences as to our status in the field. Our programs are thriving and look forward to a prosperous future. We are excited about new possibilities for us. We have one of the youngest and most dynamic and varied programs in the field, and we intend to keep it that way. If anyone has any further questions, please write to me or other members of the Slavic Dept., or Christina Kramer, the Chair. Sincerely yours, Donna Orwin ____________________________________________________ Donna Tussing Orwin, Professor President, North American Tolstoy Society Department of Slavic Languages and Literatures University of Toronto 415 Alumni Hall 121 St. Joseph St. Toronto, ON M5S 1J4 tel. 416-926-1300, x3316 fax 416-926-2076 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From lora at UCI.EDU Tue Jul 20 16:03:25 2010 From: lora at UCI.EDU (lora at UCI.EDU) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 09:03:25 -0700 Subject: Job Posting Message-ID: Position: Lecturer of Russian Literature/Culture The Program in Russian Studies at the University of California, Irvine invites applications for a part-time lecturer to teach one lower division course on Russian Culture in English translation for the Fall Quarter, 2010 -- from Sept. 2 to Dec. 10, 2010 at a salary of $5,579.50. This is a 37.5% lecturer appointment and does not include UC benefits. Requirements: The successful candidate should hold at least an M.A. degree at the time of appointment and have experience teaching Russian Language, Literature and Culture at the college level. Application Procedure: Send the following application materials via e-mail attachment to Program Manager Deirdre Newman at HLLP at uci.edu: 1. Cover letter 2. Curriculum vitae 3. Evidence of excellence in teaching, which should include at least teaching evaluation summaries 4. Two Letters of Recommendation 5. A sample syllabus of a course you would be interested in teaching in English on a topic in Russian culture/literature, including a course description and a list of course materials. Applications will be accepted until the position is filled. However, to ensure fullest consideration, all application materials should be submitted by Aug. 14, 2010. The University of California, Irvine is an equal opportunity employer committed to excellence through diversity. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From donna.orwin at UTORONTO.CA Tue Jul 20 16:43:18 2010 From: donna.orwin at UTORONTO.CA (Donna Orwin) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 12:43:18 -0400 Subject: Reposting on Toronto Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I am writing to respond to a recent posting on SEELANGS about the future of Toronto's program in Slavic. We appreciate colleagues' expressions of concern but would like to clarify the situation. Our university is in the process of a reorganization of several language and literature departments in which our department is involved. We have been assured that the university is committed to the continuation and even the strengthening of our programs on both the undergraduate and the graduate level. In the midst of this process, we would welcome testimonials sent to our Dean of Arts and Sciences as to our status in the field. Our programs are thriving and look forward to a prosperous future. We are excited about new possibilities for us. We have one of the youngest and most dynamic and varied programs in the field, and we intend to keep it that way. If anyone has any further questions, please write to me or other members of the Slavic Dept., or Christina Kramer, the Chair. If you want to write the Dean on our behalf, the address is: officeofthedean at artsci.utoronto.ca. Sincerely yours, Donna Orwin ____________________________________________________ Donna Tussing Orwin, Professor President, North American Tolstoy Society Department of Slavic Languages and Literatures University of Toronto 415 Alumni Hall 121 St. Joseph St. Toronto, ON M5S 1J4 tel. 416-926-1300, x3316 fax 416-926-2076 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sarahhurst at ALASKA.NET Tue Jul 20 21:34:31 2010 From: sarahhurst at ALASKA.NET (Sarah Hurst) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 13:34:31 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=D0=BC=D0=BE=D1=80=D1=81=D0=BA=D0=B0=D1=8F_=D1=81=D0=B2=D0=B8?= =?utf-8?Q?=D0=BD=D0=BA=D0=B0?= Message-ID: Hello, I’m working with a translation of an early 19th-century document in which the way in which the months were characterized by Alaska Natives is described. July is said to be the month when “морские свинки плодятся”. The translator has said this means when “dolphins give birth”. Does this refer to dolphins? Thanks, Sarah Hurst ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From michael.pushkin at BTOPENWORLD.COM Tue Jul 20 21:42:18 2010 From: michael.pushkin at BTOPENWORLD.COM (MICHAEL PUSHKIN) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 21:42:18 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=D0=BC=D0=BE=D1=80=D1=81=D0=BA=D0=B0=D1=8F_=D1=81=D0=B2=D0=B8?= =?utf-8?Q?=D0=BD=D0=BA=D0=B0?= In-Reply-To: <44A0F250475B459486843057255811C9@SarahPC> Message-ID: Guinea pigs. Best, Mike Mike Pushkin CREES Hi Sarah, Guinea pigs. Best, Mike Mike Pushkin CREES University of Birmingham UK ________________________________ From: Sarah Hurst To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Sent: Tuesday, 20 July, 2010 22:34:31 Subject: [SEELANGS] морская свинка Hello, I’m working with a translation of an early 19th-century document in which the way in which the months were characterized by Alaska Natives is described. July is said to be the month when “морские свинки плодятся”. The translator has said this means when “dolphins give birth”. Does this refer to dolphins? Thanks, Sarah Hurst ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription   options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at:                     http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From robinso at STOLAF.EDU Tue Jul 20 21:44:37 2010 From: robinso at STOLAF.EDU (Marc Robinson) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 16:44:37 -0500 Subject: =?KOI8-R?Q?=CD=CF=D2=D3=CB=C1=D1_=D3=D7=C9=CE=CB=C1?= In-Reply-To: <234565.32448.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: pморские свинки refers to guinea pigs, but they probably meant морские свиньи (Phocoenidae) porpoise Marc Robinson 2010/7/20 MICHAEL PUSHKIN > Guinea pigs. > > Best, > > Mike > > Mike Pushkin > CREES > Hi Sarah, > > Guinea pigs. > > Best, > > Mike > > Mike Pushkin > CREES > University of Birmingham > UK > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Sarah Hurst > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Sent: Tuesday, 20 July, 2010 22:34:31 > Subject: [SEELANGS] морская свинка > > Hello, > > > > I'm working with a translation of an early 19th-century document in which > the > way in which the months were characterized by Alaska Natives is described. > July > is said to be the month when "морские свинки плодятся". The translator has > said > this means when "dolphins give birth". Does this refer to dolphins? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Sarah Hurst > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hhalva at MINDSPRING.COM Tue Jul 20 21:49:30 2010 From: hhalva at MINDSPRING.COM (Helen Halva) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 17:49:30 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?=D0=BC=D0=BE=D1=80=D1=81=D0=BA=D0=B0=D1=8F_=D1=81=D0=B2=D0=B8?= =?UTF-8?Q?=D0=BD=D0=BA=D0=B0?= In-Reply-To: <44A0F250475B459486843057255811C9@SarahPC> Message-ID: I can't speak for the early 19th century, but I've always understood "morskaia svinka" to be a guinea pig. HH Sarah Hurst wrote: > Hello, > > > > I’m working with a translation of an early 19th-century document in which the way in which the months were characterized by Alaska Natives is described. July is said to be the month when “морские свинки плодятся”. The translator has said this means when “dolphins give birth”. Does this refer to dolphins? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Sarah Hurst > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Wwdslovene at AOL.COM Tue Jul 20 21:50:26 2010 From: Wwdslovene at AOL.COM (William Derbyshire) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 17:50:26 EDT Subject: porpoise Message-ID: In a message dated 7/20/2010 3:34:36 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, sarahhurst at ALASKA.NET writes: I agree with the two preceding replies. The term refers to guinea pigs. Marc Robinson is correct. This refers to porpoises, and they do give birth during the summer months, primarily in July. Wm. Derbyshire Hello, I’m working with a translation of an early 19th-century document in which the way in which the months were characterized by Alaska Natives is described. July is said to be the month when “морские свинки плодятся”. The translator has said this means when “dolphins give birth”. Does this refer to dolphins? Thanks, Sarah Hurst ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ************************************************* Coffee ! - you can sleep when you're dead ! William W. Derbyshire Professor Emeritus - Rutgers University freelance translator - Slavic languages land line: 505-982-6646 cell: 520-400-9190 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kmharkness at GMAIL.COM Tue Jul 20 21:57:57 2010 From: kmharkness at GMAIL.COM (K M Harkness) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 17:57:57 -0400 Subject: Russian Chemistry Abbreviation? Message-ID: I'm translating an article about ancient bronzes found in Siberia. In an extensive chart listing the chemical composition of the objects, the abbreviation Н. о [N. o] appears in two places in the iridium column. I cannot for the life of me figure out what this means and it isn't in the list of abbreviations. (The authors use a — when an element is absent and Сл. [Sl.] when a trace is present.) Help please! Many thanks in advance. Kristen Harkness ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sarahhurst at ALASKA.NET Tue Jul 20 22:00:39 2010 From: sarahhurst at ALASKA.NET (Sarah Hurst) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 14:00:39 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=D0=BC=D0=BE=D1=80=D1=81=D0=BA=D0=B0=D1=8F_=D1=81=D0=B2=D0=B8?= =?utf-8?Q?=D0=BD=D0=BA=D0=B0?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, it's probably a funny typo! Sarah Hurst -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Marc Robinson Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 1:45 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] морская свинка pморские свинки refers to guinea pigs, but they probably meant морские свиньи (Phocoenidae) porpoise Marc Robinson 2010/7/20 MICHAEL PUSHKIN > Guinea pigs. > > Best, > > Mike > > Mike Pushkin > CREES > Hi Sarah, > > Guinea pigs. > > Best, > > Mike > > Mike Pushkin > CREES > University of Birmingham > UK > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Sarah Hurst > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Sent: Tuesday, 20 July, 2010 22:34:31 > Subject: [SEELANGS] морская свинка > > Hello, > > > > I'm working with a translation of an early 19th-century document in which > the > way in which the months were characterized by Alaska Natives is described. > July > is said to be the month when "морские свинки плодятся". The translator has > said > this means when "dolphins give birth". Does this refer to dolphins? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Sarah Hurst > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3017 - Release Date: 07/19/10 22:36:00 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jul 20 22:05:16 2010 From: anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM (anne marie devlin) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 23:05:16 +0100 Subject: porpoise In-Reply-To: <31c6e.302496f2.39777422@aol.com> Message-ID: It obviously refers to porpoises. If you take the context into consideration, it would be highly unlikely for 19th century Alaskans to compare the seasons with the breeding patterns of an Andean rodent. The use of the diminutive is possibly displays an emotional response to a harbinger of warm weather. It would also be interesting to find out when the term морская свинка came into use. I don't think it would be too far fetched to suggest that the native Alaskans were unaware of its existence. Anne marie‏ > Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 17:50:26 -0400 > From: Wwdslovene at AOL.COM > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] porpoise > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > > > In a message dated 7/20/2010 3:34:36 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > sarahhurst at ALASKA.NET writes: > > I agree with the two preceding replies. The term refers to guinea pigs. > Marc Robinson is correct. This refers to porpoises, and they do give > birth during the summer months, primarily in July. > Wm. Derbyshire > > Hello, > > > > I’m working with a translation of an early 19th-century document in which > the way in which the months were characterized by Alaska Natives is > described. July is said to be the month when “морские свинки плодятся”. > The translator has said this means when “dolphins give birth”. Does this > refer to dolphins? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Sarah Hurst > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > ************************************************* > Coffee ! - you can sleep when you're dead ! > > > William W. Derbyshire > Professor Emeritus - Rutgers University > freelance translator - Slavic languages > land line: 505-982-6646 > cell: 520-400-9190 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. https://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969 From anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jul 20 22:09:40 2010 From: anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM (anne marie devlin) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 23:09:40 +0100 Subject: porpoise In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For anyone who's interested the word porpoise is a hybrid of pig and fish > Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 23:05:16 +0100 > From: anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] porpoise > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > > It obviously refers to porpoises. If you take the context into consideration, it would be highly unlikely for 19th century Alaskans to compare the seasons with the breeding patterns of an Andean rodent. The use of the diminutive is possibly displays an emotional response to a harbinger of warm weather. It would also be interesting to find out when the term морская свинка came into use. I don't think it would be too far fetched to suggest that the native Alaskans were unaware of its existence. > > Anne marie‏ > > Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 17:50:26 -0400 > > From: Wwdslovene at AOL.COM > > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] porpoise > > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > > > > > > > In a message dated 7/20/2010 3:34:36 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > > sarahhurst at ALASKA.NET writes: > > > > I agree with the two preceding replies. The term refers to guinea pigs. > > Marc Robinson is correct. This refers to porpoises, and they do give > > birth during the summer months, primarily in July. > > Wm. Derbyshire > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > I’m working with a translation of an early 19th-century document in which > > the way in which the months were characterized by Alaska Natives is > > described. July is said to be the month when “морские свинки плодятся”. > > The translator has said this means when “dolphins give birth”. Does this > > refer to dolphins? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Sarah Hurst > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > ************************************************* > > Coffee ! - you can sleep when you're dead ! > > > > > > William W. Derbyshire > > Professor Emeritus - Rutgers University > > freelance translator - Slavic languages > > land line: 505-982-6646 > > cell: 520-400-9190 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. > https://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969 _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. https://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969 From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Tue Jul 20 22:13:23 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 18:13:23 -0400 Subject: Russian Chemistry Abbreviation? In-Reply-To: <9C687C7A-417D-4A3B-B2F4-41720E496BEC@gmail.com> Message-ID: K M Harkness wrote: > I'm translating an article about ancient bronzes found in Siberia. > In an extensive chart listing the chemical composition of the > objects, the abbreviation Н. о [N. o] appears in two places in the > iridium column. I cannot for the life of me figure out what this > means and it isn't in the list of abbreviations. (The authors use a > — when an element is absent and Сл. [Sl.] when a trace is present.) > Help please! Не определено, не определилось (not measured). -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From allab_1983 at YAHOO.COM Tue Jul 20 22:21:12 2010 From: allab_1983 at YAHOO.COM (Alla N. Baranovsky) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 15:21:12 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=D0=BC=D0=BE=D1=80=D1=81=D0=BA=D0=B0=D1=8F_=D1=81=D0=B2=D0=B8?= =?utf-8?Q?=D0=BD=D0=BA=D0=B0?= In-Reply-To: <44A0F250475B459486843057255811C9@SarahPC> Message-ID: "морская св Hello Sarah, "морская свинка" is actually a guinea pig. Hope this helps! -Alla ________________________________ From: Sarah Hurst To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 5:34:31 PM Subject: [SEELANGS] морская свинка Hello, I’m working with a translation of an early 19th-century document in which the way in which the months were characterized by Alaska Natives is described. July is said to be the month when “морские свинки плодятся”. The translator has said this means when “dolphins give birth”. Does this refer to dolphins? Thanks, Sarah Hurst ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From john at RUSLAN.CO.UK Wed Jul 21 07:19:16 2010 From: john at RUSLAN.CO.UK (John Langran) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 08:19:16 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=D0=BC=D0=BE=D1=80=D1=81=D0=BA=D0=B0=D1=8F_=D1=81=D0=B2=D0=B8?= =?utf-8?Q?=D0=BD=D0=BA=D0=B0?= Message-ID: My kids' guinea pigs had to come indoors whenever we had a cold winter. In Alaska these must be porpoises. Perhaps the locals didn't have a copy of Ozhegov handy to check whether it should be svini or svinki? John Langran www.ruslan.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alla N. Baranovsky" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 11:21 PM Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] морская свинка "морская св Hello Sarah, "морская свинка" is actually a guinea pig. Hope this helps! -Alla ________________________________ From: Sarah Hurst To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 5:34:31 PM Subject: [SEELANGS] морская свинка Hello, I’m working with a translation of an early 19th-century document in which the way in which the months were characterized by Alaska Natives is described. July is said to be the month when “морские свинки плодятся”. The translator has said this means when “dolphins give birth”. Does this refer to dolphins? Thanks, Sarah Hurst ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Ralph.Cleminson at PORT.AC.UK Wed Jul 21 08:45:56 2010 From: Ralph.Cleminson at PORT.AC.UK (Ralph Cleminson) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:45:56 +0100 Subject: porpoise Message-ID: >>> anne marie devlin 20/07/10 11:05 PM >>> It would also be interesting to find out when the term морская свинка came into use. Remarkably, the word is absent from my etymological dictionaries, but it is evidently a calque of German Meerschweinchen, which is to be understood not so much as a sea-pig as an overseas pig. Different languages seem to ascribe fairly random origins to these exotic imports, so the English guinea pig is the French cochon d'Inde. It's the same story with the turkey (a name originally applied in English to what we now call the guinea fowl), индюк, dindon. The two come together in Slovak, where guinea pig is morča and turkey is moriak. The adjective from both is morčací, which can be quite disconcerting on a menu. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jul 21 12:11:27 2010 From: anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM (anne marie devlin) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 13:11:27 +0100 Subject: [SEELA NGS] =?windows-1251?Q?=EC=EE=F0=F1=EA_=E0=FF_=F1=E2=E8=ED=EA=E0?= In-Reply-To: <52F1597D64B94A2A9307E2FCBF679EBA@your2aab5bb80c> Message-ID: WE need to get away from the Saussurian view of word and meaning as fixed and move on maybe to a Bakhtinian view. His concept of chronotope illustrates perfectly the significant impact of time and space on meaning. AMD > Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 08:19:16 +0100 > From: john at RUSLAN.CO.UK > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] морская свинка > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > My kids' guinea pigs had to come indoors whenever we had a cold winter. In > Alaska these must be porpoises. Perhaps the locals didn't have a copy of > Ozhegov handy to check whether it should be svini or svinki? > John Langran > www.ruslan.co.uk > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alla N. Baranovsky" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 11:21 PM > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] морская свинка > > > "морская св > Hello Sarah, > > "морская свинка" is actually a guinea pig. Hope this helps! > > -Alla > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Sarah Hurst > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 5:34:31 PM > Subject: [SEELANGS] морская свинка > > Hello, > > > > I’m working with a translation of an early 19th-century document in which > the > way in which the months were characterized by Alaska Natives is described. > July > is said to be the month when “морские свинки плодятся”. The translator has > said > this means when “dolphins give birth”. Does this refer to dolphins? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Sarah Hurst > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. https://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Wed Jul 21 14:12:47 2010 From: j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 15:12:47 +0100 Subject: [SEELA NGS] =?koi8-r?Q?=CD=CF=D2=D3=CB_=C1=D1_=D3=D7=C9=CE_=CB=C1?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The fourth edition of Даль is helpful here. S.v. свинка the phrase заморская свинка, to which Baudouin de Courtenay has added морская свинка, is defined as a guinea pig (Cavia cobaja). In addition морская свинка is given as a variant of морская свинья. John Dunn. ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of anne marie devlin [anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM] Sent: 21 July 2010 13:11 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] [SEELA NGS] морск ая свинка WE need to get away from the Saussurian view of word and meaning as fixed and move on maybe to a Bakhtinian view. His concept of chronotope illustrates perfectly the significant impact of time and space on meaning. AMD > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jul 21 15:43:41 2010 From: anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM (anne marie devlin) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 16:43:41 +0100 Subject: [SEELA NGS] [SEEL A NGS] =?koi8-r?Q?=CD=CF=D2_=D3=CB_=C1=D1_=D3=D7=C9=CE__=CB=C1?= In-Reply-To: <9B55785EA179DA42AAA6EA7F7DC9DB90A99C6E53DF@CMS01.campus.gla.ac.uk> Message-ID: I truly believe there is a need to move away from the idea of words having certain meanings only if prescribed in a dictionary. Surely the context, ie knowing who, what why, where and when plays a bigger role. In this case, I'm sure морская свинка refers to a purpoise, not because it has been assigned that meaning by Даль, but because it was uttered/written by a 19th century native Alaskan to describe the coming of summer. Of course words have common meanings understood by most people, but they likewise have spatial/temporal meanings which may not be officially sanctioned and recorded. Think for example of the case of кушать. For a long time dictionaries insisted this the formal verb 'to dine'. However, no-one had informed my russian friends in my Soviet era общежитие where будешь кушать? referred to sharing каша from a pot - and not in an ironic way! AMD > Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 15:12:47 +0100 > From: j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] [SEELA NGS] морск ая свин ка > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > The fourth edition of Даль is helpful here. S.v. свинка the phrase заморская свинка, to which Baudouin de Courtenay has added морская свинка, is defined as a guinea pig (Cavia cobaja). In addition морская свинка is given as a variant of морская свинья. > > John Dunn. > ________________________________________ > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of anne marie devlin [anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM] > Sent: 21 July 2010 13:11 > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] [SEELA NGS] морск ая свинка > > WE need to get away from the Saussurian view of word and meaning as fixed and move on maybe to a Bakhtinian view. His concept of chronotope illustrates perfectly the significant impact of time and space on meaning. > > AMD > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. https://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jrosengrant at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 21 16:47:05 2010 From: jrosengrant at EARTHLINK.NET (Judson Rosengrant) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:47:05 -0700 Subject: Sea Pigs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think Professor Dunn's point may simply have been that the answer to the original question was readily available in the most authoritative resource for 19th-century Russian: Vladimir Dahl's great dictionary. There's even a version of it (2nd edition) available on-line: or . If you read Dahl's article on 'свинья' you'll find 'морская свинка' glossed as 'дельфин (Delphinus phocaena)'. Since the alternative of 'Guinea pig' is obviously inappropriate for geographical and historical reasons, you can take Dahl's word for it and call it either 'dolphin' or 'porpoise'. That last 'or' raises the interesting question of which species actually pertains. I would tend to think the first, since dolphins appear to be much more common in the North Pacific than porpoises. But I would want to research the local conditions before making a final decision. It could be the text was talking about harbor porpoises. The derivation of 'porpoise' is interesting too: it seems to come from the French 'pourpois', which itself derives from the Latin 'porcopiscus' or 'pig-fish'. Or as the the Russian has it, 'морская свинка' (the second word probably not being a diminutive but a regional alternative with the simpler declension, like 'морковка'). Or as a yet another old English alternative, 'mereswine' (ОЕД cites 725 - 1886). In short, it all probably has less to do with Saussure or Bakhtin (as truly wonderful as they are) and more with consulting the basic professional resources available to us with the click of a mouse and then using a little common sense in regard to geography and history. Judson Rosengrant, PhD PO Box 551 Portland, OR 97207 503.880.9521 mobile jrosengrant at earthlink.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jul 21 17:02:12 2010 From: anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM (anne marie devlin) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 18:02:12 +0100 Subject: Sea Pigs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm in total agreement with you re: common sense and historical/geographical knowledge. That is precisely the point I was making. I felt dismayed that a few respondents didn't seem to accept the possibility of 'морская свинка' being a purpoise/dolphin. And while dictioaries are of course essential, sometimes we need more and i believe that is what Bakhtin advocates AMD > Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:47:05 -0700 > From: jrosengrant at EARTHLINK.NET > Subject: [SEELANGS] Sea Pigs > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > I think Professor Dunn's point may simply have been that the answer to the > original question was readily available in the most authoritative resource > for 19th-century Russian: Vladimir Dahl's great dictionary. There's even a > version of it (2nd edition) available on-line: or > . > > If you read Dahl's article on 'свинья' you'll find 'морская свинка' glossed > as 'дельфин (Delphinus phocaena)'. Since the alternative of 'Guinea pig' is > obviously inappropriate for geographical and historical reasons, you can > take Dahl's word for it and call it either 'dolphin' or 'porpoise'. > > That last 'or' raises the interesting question of which species actually > pertains. I would tend to think the first, since dolphins appear to be much > more common in the North Pacific than porpoises. But I would want to > research the local conditions before making a final decision. It > could be the text was talking about harbor porpoises. > > The derivation of 'porpoise' is interesting too: it seems to come from the > French 'pourpois', which itself derives from the Latin 'porcopiscus' or > 'pig-fish'. Or as the the Russian has it, 'морская свинка' (the second word > probably not being a diminutive but a regional alternative with the simpler > declension, like 'морковка'). Or as a yet another old English alternative, > 'mereswine' (ОЕД cites 725 - 1886). > > In short, it all probably has less to do with Saussure or Bakhtin (as truly > wonderful as they are) and more with consulting the basic professional > resources available to us with the click of a mouse and then using a little > common sense in regard to geography and history. > > > Judson Rosengrant, PhD > PO Box 551 > Portland, OR 97207 > > 503.880.9521 mobile > jrosengrant at earthlink.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. https://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ZitaD at AOL.COM Wed Jul 21 17:01:59 2010 From: ZitaD at AOL.COM (Zita Dabars) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 13:01:59 EDT Subject: Russian proverbs - near English equivalents? Message-ID: July 22, 2010 Dear Seelangers, I am turning to this wonderful group for help. With colleagues I am working on an answer key for the Kendall-Hunt Publishing Company's textook «Mir russkikh» to have this answer key join the «Answer Key for Mir russkih Exercise Book» which became available last year. We are having difficulty in answering an exercise that asks for finding near English equivalents to four Russian proverbs. I would appreciate receiving suggested answers. I transliterate the Russian in case the Cyrillic does not come through. «___ _______ _ ______, ___ _ _____ ___» (Gde lyubov i sovet, tam i gore net) «__ _______ _____ _______, _ _______ _________» (Ne krasna izba uglami, a krasna pirogami) «_ ________ ____ _________, ___ ____ __ __________» (V kotoryj den parishsya, tot den ne starishsya) «_____ _ ______ _________» (Doma i steny pomogayut) Thank you in advance, Zita Dabars 7223 Lanark Road Baltimore, MD 21212 Phone and fax: (410) 821-1994 E-mail: zitad at aol.com Web site: www.basilproducts.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Wed Jul 21 17:26:42 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 18:26:42 +0100 Subject: Russian proverbs - near English equivalents? In-Reply-To: <3812c.461f210c.39788207@aol.com> Message-ID: How about this? «Where there is love and advice, there are no obstacles.» (Gde lyubov i sovet, tam i gore net) ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! FIRST SALE: 11/13/09! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ Got Your Spoon? Find out what they're all about (and find out a little about me too!) http://www.butyoudontlooksick.com/the_spoon_theory/ On 21 July 2010 18:01, Zita Dabars wrote: > July 22, 2010 > > Dear Seelangers, > > I am turning to this wonderful group for help. With colleagues I am working > on an answer key for the Kendall-Hunt Publishing Company's textook «Mir > russkikh» to have this answer key join the «Answer Key for Mir russkih > Exercise Book» which became available last year. > > We are having difficulty in answering an exercise that asks for finding > near English equivalents to four Russian proverbs. I would appreciate > receiving > suggested answers. I transliterate the Russian in case the Cyrillic does > not come through. > > «___ _______ _ ______, ___ _ _____ ___» (Gde lyubov i sovet, tam i gore > net) > > «__ _______ _____ _______, _ _______ _________» (Ne krasna izba uglami, a > krasna pirogami) > > «_ ________ ____ _________, ___ ____ __ __________» (V kotoryj den > parishsya, tot den ne starishsya) > > «_____ _ ______ _________» (Doma i steny pomogayut) > > Thank you in advance, > > Zita Dabars > 7223 Lanark Road > Baltimore, MD 21212 > Phone and fax: (410) 821-1994 > E-mail: zitad at aol.com > Web site: www.basilproducts.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sarahhurst at ALASKA.NET Wed Jul 21 17:51:25 2010 From: sarahhurst at ALASKA.NET (Sarah Hurst) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:51:25 -0800 Subject: Sea Pigs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This has been a fascinating discussion. I was fairly sure that guinea pigs weren't being referred too, but since I didn't know the word for porpoise, I hadn't seen the similarity. I'll never forget those words now! Thanks, Sarah Hurst ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From john at RUSLAN.CO.UK Wed Jul 21 18:17:07 2010 From: john at RUSLAN.CO.UK (John Langran) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:17:07 +0100 Subject: Sea Pigs Message-ID: We in the UK all know guinea pig in Russian, it's in the school GCSE syllabus - talking about your pets ... John Langran www.ruslan.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Hurst" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 6:51 PM Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Sea Pigs > This has been a fascinating discussion. I was fairly sure that guinea pigs > weren't being referred too, but since I didn't know the word for porpoise, > I hadn't seen the similarity. I'll never forget those words now! > > Thanks, > > Sarah Hurst > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kmharkness at GMAIL.COM Wed Jul 21 18:50:46 2010 From: kmharkness at GMAIL.COM (K M Harkness) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:50:46 -0400 Subject: Russian Chemistry Abbreviation? In-Reply-To: <4C461F83.7050903@pbg-translations.com> Message-ID: Thanks! I knew as soon as I gave up and posted to the list that it would turn out to be something really obvious. Kristen Harkness On Jul 20, 2010, at 6:13 PM, Paul B. Gallagher wrote: > K M Harkness wrote: > >> I'm translating an article about ancient bronzes found in Siberia. >> In an extensive chart listing the chemical composition of the >> objects, the abbreviation Н. о [N. o] appears in two places in the >> iridium column. I cannot for the life of me figure out what this >> means and it isn't in the list of abbreviations. (The authors use a >> — when an element is absent and Сл. [Sl.] when a trace is present.) >> Help please! > > Не определено, не определилось (not measured). > > -- > War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. > -- > Paul B. Gallagher > pbg translations, inc. > "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" > http://pbg-translations.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From yasicus at RAMBLER.RU Wed Jul 21 19:29:58 2010 From: yasicus at RAMBLER.RU (Iaroslav Pankovskyi) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 23:29:58 +0400 Subject: TranscUlturAl call for papers Message-ID: Dear ALL, I would like to invite your contributions to a special issue of the University of Alberta e-journal TranscUlturAl (http://ejournals.library.ualberta.ca/index.php/TC/index [redirect.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fejournals.library.ualberta.ca%2Findex.php%2FTC%2Findex;href=1]) If you are interested in Slavic studies, your paper may be published in this special issue. Summer in addition to nice weather also offers more opportunities for scholarly work. As autumn, winter and spring often involve teaching responsibilities, I believe that summer is especially favourable season for publications. Therefore, I encourage you to submit papers to this special issue of TranscUlturAl (international journal). _________________________________________________ TranscUlturAl is indexed with major Humanities bibliographies, including the MLA and Benjamins Translation Studies bibliography. For the details see the web link above. Best regards, Iaroslav Pankovskyi. ________________________________________ Member of TranscUlturAl editorial board, University of Alberta. pankovsk at ualberta.ca [redirect.cgi?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwebmail.ualberta.ca%2Fimp%2Fmessage.php%3Fmailbox%3Dsent-mail%26index%3D2125%23;href=1]. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From soboleva at COMCAST.NET Thu Jul 22 03:00:51 2010 From: soboleva at COMCAST.NET (Valentina Soboleva) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 03:00:51 +0000 Subject: Russian proverbs - near English equivalents? In-Reply-To: <3812c.461f210c.39788207@aol.com> Message-ID: Zita, in the first proverb instead of "gore" should be "goria net" (Gen c. from gore); also, I think, in the third one, the preposition "v" should be repeated: "V kotoryj ...., v tot den' ne starish'sia." But I cannot help with translations. Valentina Soboleva ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zita Dabars" To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 10:01:59 AM Subject: [SEELANGS] Russian proverbs - near English equivalents? July 22, 2010 Dear Seelangers, I am turning to this wonderful group for help. With colleagues I am working on an answer key for the Kendall-Hunt Publishing Company's textook   «Mir russkikh» to have this answer key join the «Answer Key for Mir russkih Exercise Book» which became available last year. We are having difficulty in answering an exercise that asks for finding near English equivalents to four Russian proverbs. I would appreciate receiving suggested answers. I transliterate the Russian in case the Cyrillic does not come through. «___ _______ _ ______, ___ _ _____ ___» (Gde lyubov i sovet, tam i gore net) «__ _______ _____ _______, _ _______ _________» (Ne krasna izba uglami, a krasna pirogami) «_ ________ ____ _________, ___ ____ __ __________» (V kotoryj den parishsya, tot den ne starishsya) «_____ _ ______ _________» (Doma i steny pomogayut) Thank you in advance, Zita Dabars 7223 Lanark Road Baltimore, MD 21212 Phone and fax: (410) 821-1994 E-mail: zitad at aol.com Web site: www.basilproducts.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------  Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription   options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at:                     http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From djloewen at BINGHAMTON.EDU Thu Jul 22 03:11:14 2010 From: djloewen at BINGHAMTON.EDU (Donald J Loewen) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 23:11:14 -0400 Subject: HS Russian Teacher Urgently Needed, Albany area. Start Fall 2010 Message-ID: I'm posting this on behalf of a concerned parent who is trying her utmost to help find a teacher to keep the Russian program alive at Watervliet Jr/Sr High School, near Albany, NY ; I share her concern and I'm sure that those on this list do as well. If you are interested or know of someone in the Albany area who is qualified to teach Russian, please use the link below. The parent who contacted me writes that the program is very successful and has good parental and student support, but the recent resignation of the teacher has put the program in jeopardy. The position is being posted until July 30, so please urge prospective teachers to apply immediately. https://www.pnwboces.org/teacherapplicationSSL/JobDetailInfo.aspx?JobNumber=WTVN0041758-0055 All the best, Donald Loewen Associate Professor of Russian Chair, Department of German and Russian Studies Binghamton University (SUNY) PO Box 6000 Binghamton, NY 13902-6000 ph. (607) 777-5970 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ZitaD at AOL.COM Thu Jul 22 03:17:45 2010 From: ZitaD at AOL.COM (Zita Dabars) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 23:17:45 EDT Subject: Russian proverbs - near English equivalents? Message-ID: Thank you for your comments. I failed to say that the transliterated version (for which I was not sufficiently accurate) will never appear in the "Answer Key to Mir russkikh." The transliteration was used only in the case that the Cyrillic did not appear in the mailing which I sent to SEELANGS. Zita Dabars ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From elena.ostrovskaya at GMAIL.COM Thu Jul 22 08:52:14 2010 From: elena.ostrovskaya at GMAIL.COM (Elena Ostrovskaya) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 12:52:14 +0400 Subject: Russian proverbs - near English equivalents? In-Reply-To: <5cda2.2b0ddc81.39791259@aol.com> Message-ID: Dear Zita, I am afraid I don't get what you / they mean by 'near equivalents'. Corresponding English proverbs? I'd be really surprised if there were one about banya. Or translation? Could you please clarify? Anyway, if you follow this link http://masterrussian.com/proverbs/russian_proverbs_3.htm you'll find equivalents and literal translation to your 1st and 4rth proverbs. For the 2nd, I'd say something like: The beauty of a home is hospitality, not decoration Literally: The beauty of a house is its pies, not its corners. All that keeping in mind that 'krasny ugol' is not a red corner, or even a beautiful corner, since 'krasny' here means 'good', or 'beautiful', but a place of worship where the ikons are http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Красный_угол . Thus the same thing can be understood in the religious line. 3. The day you go to banya, you don't get older that day. Hope that helps. Elena Ostrovskaya You'll find the equivalen and translation to your 1st and 3rd sayings. On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 7:17 AM, Zita Dabars wrote: > Thank you for your comments. > > I failed to say that the transliterated version (for which I was not > sufficiently accurate) will never appear in the "Answer Key to Mir > russkikh." The > transliteration was used only in the case that the Cyrillic did not appear > in the mailing which I sent to SEELANGS. > > Zita Dabars > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jul 22 10:40:05 2010 From: anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM (anne marie devlin) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 11:40:05 +0100 Subject: Russian proverbs - near English equivalents? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Possibly the nearest equivalent for the first is 'love conquers all'; athough there is no mention of 'advice'. > Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 12:52:14 +0400 > From: elena.ostrovskaya at GMAIL.COM > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian proverbs - near English equivalents? > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > Dear Zita, > I am afraid I don't get what you / they mean by 'near equivalents'. > Corresponding English proverbs? I'd be really surprised if there were one > about banya. Or translation? Could you please clarify? > Anyway, if you follow this link > http://masterrussian.com/proverbs/russian_proverbs_3.htm > > you'll find equivalents and literal translation to your 1st and 4rth > proverbs. > For the 2nd, > I'd say something like: The beauty of a home is hospitality, not decoration > Literally: The beauty of a house is its pies, not its corners. > > All that keeping in mind that 'krasny ugol' is not a red corner, or even a > beautiful corner, since 'krasny' here means 'good', or 'beautiful', but a > place of worship where the ikons are > > http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Красный_угол > . > > Thus the same thing can be understood in the religious line. > > 3. The day you go to banya, you don't get older that day. > > Hope that helps. > Elena Ostrovskaya > > > > > > You'll find the > equivalen and translation to your 1st and 3rd sayings. > > On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 7:17 AM, Zita Dabars wrote: > > > Thank you for your comments. > > > > I failed to say that the transliterated version (for which I was not > > sufficiently accurate) will never appear in the "Answer Key to Mir > > russkikh." The > > transliteration was used only in the case that the Cyrillic did not appear > > in the mailing which I sent to SEELANGS. > > > > Zita Dabars > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. https://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Thu Jul 22 13:50:59 2010 From: j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:50:59 +0100 Subject: Russian proverbs, Dal' and exotic mammals Message-ID: It may be worth noting that in the phrase любовь и/да совет [ljbov' i/da sovet], the latter word has the meaning 'harmony'. This meaning is (dare I say it?) recorded by Dal', and is even recorded by some post-Soviet dictionaries, but the phrase in question is, to the best of my knowledge, the only place where it survives in the present-day language. Judson Rosengrant's exegis of my previous e-mail is broadly correct, but the other reason why Dal' is helpful here is that it contributes towards dating the appearance of морская свинка [morskaja svinka] with the meaning of 'guinea pig', a question that been raised earlier in the thread. In this connectiopn A. Aleksandrow's Polnyj russko-anglijskij slovar' (SPb, 1885), s.v. свинка [svinka], gives морская свинка [morskaja svinka] as 'porpoise' and гвинейская свинка [gvinejskaja svinka] as 'guinea-pig'; I suspect that the later may be an early example of Runglish. John Dunn. ________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From yasicus at RAMBLER.RU Thu Jul 22 16:11:59 2010 From: yasicus at RAMBLER.RU (Iaroslav Pankovskyi) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 20:11:59 +0400 Subject: PROVERBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Message-ID: Hi, Proverbs, that's interesting! 1) Gde lyubov i sovet, tam i gore net --->Love is not just looking at each other, it's looking in the same direction. (Antoine de Saint-Exupery) or Love makes labour light. 2) Ne krasna izba uglami, a krasna pirogami --->Home is where the hearth is. or Home is where the heart is 3) V kotoryj den parishsya, tot den ne starishsya --->Labour warms, sloth harms. 4) Doma i steny pomogayut. East or West, home is best. Best, Iaroslav. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Thu Jul 22 17:03:17 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 18:03:17 +0100 Subject: PROVERBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In-Reply-To: <627596908.1279815119.53946232.40858@mcgi75.rambler.ru> Message-ID: Brilliant! R. > Hi, > > Proverbs, that's interesting! > 1) Gde lyubov i sovet, tam i gore net > --->Love is not just looking at each other, it's looking in the same > direction. > (Antoine de Saint-Exupery) > or Love makes labour light. > > 2) Ne krasna izba uglami, a krasna pirogami > --->Home is where the hearth is. > or Home is where the heart is > > 3) V kotoryj den parishsya, tot den ne starishsya > --->Labour warms, sloth harms. > > 4) Doma i steny pomogayut. > East or West, home is best. > > Best, > Iaroslav. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ericson at AMERICANCOUNCILS.ORG Thu Jul 22 17:10:32 2010 From: ericson at AMERICANCOUNCILS.ORG (Brita Ericson) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 12:10:32 -0500 Subject: Title VIII Grants for Research and Advanced Language Training Message-ID: American Councils for International Education: ACTR/ACCELS is now accepting applications for its 2011-2012 Title VIII Grants for Research and Advanced Language Training programs in Central Asia, the South Caucasus, Russia, Southeast Europe, Belarus, Moldova and Ukraine. Only U.S. citizens and permanent residents are eligible for these awards. The application deadline for Spring 2011, Summer 2011, Fall 2011, Academic Year 2011-2012, and Spring 2012 programs is OCTOBER 1, 2010. Programs must begin between February 1st, 2011 and June 30, 2012; and must be completed by September 30, 2012. Fellowships will be offered in three categories: *Title VIII Research Scholar Program: Provides full support for three- to nine-month research trips to Russia, Central Asia, the South Caucasus, Southeast Europe, Ukraine, Belarus, and Moldova. Fellowships include roundtrip international travel, housing and living stipend, visa support, medical insurance, archive access, and logistical support in the field. Open to U.S. graduate students, post-doctoral scholars, and faculty. Annual deadline: October 1st. *Title VIII Combined Research and Language Training Program: Provides full support for research and up to ten academic hours per week of advanced language instruction for three-to-nine months in Russia, Central Asia, the South Caucasus, Ukraine, Belarus, and Moldova. Fellowships include roundtrip international travel, housing and living stipend, tuition, visa support, medical insurance, archive access, and logistical support in the field. Open to U.S. graduate students, post-doctoral scholars, and faculty. Annual deadline: October 1st. *Title VIII Southeast European Language Training Program: Provides fellowships for graduate students, faculty, and scholars to study language for a semester, academic year or summer in Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro, Romania, and Serbia. Open to students at the MA and Ph.D. level, as well as post-doctoral scholars and faculty, who have at least elementary language skills. For a full list of countries eligible for each fellowship, please see our website: http://www.americancouncils.org/research.php. Funding for these programs is available through American Councils from the U.S. Department of State’s Title VIII Program for Research and Training on Eastern Europe and Eurasia (Independent States of the Former Soviet Union). All competitions for funding are open and merit based. All applications will receive consideration without regard to race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, national origin, marital status, political affiliation, or disability. Applications are available for download at www.americancouncils.org/research or by contacting the American Councils Outbound Office. Applications must be postmarked by the application deadline date. For more information, please contact: Russian and Eurasian Outbound Programs American Councils for International Education: ACTR/ACCELS 1828 L St. NW, Suite 1200 Washington, DC 20036 Telephone: (202) 833-7522 Email: outbound at americancouncils.org Website: http://www.americancouncils.org/research.php ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ZitaD at AOL.COM Thu Jul 22 20:46:54 2010 From: ZitaD at AOL.COM (Zita Dabars) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 16:46:54 EDT Subject: Clarification on Proverb help needed Message-ID: July 22, 2010 Dear Elena Ostrovskaya and other SEELANGERS: Having been asked to clarify my request of yesterday, regarding help with four proverbs, I have copied below the direction given to the students, and how the authors of the Answer Key to the «Mir russkikh» textbook handled that task in four lessons. We are not looking for literal translations into English of the proverbs. I thought of sending examples of how we treat proverbs in three of the lessons where we have found similar English sayings. Again, I will transliterate in case the Cyrillic does not come through. But at no point do we use transliteration in the answer key. Lesson 2 _3 ___ __ ________, ___ _______ «_ ______ ___ _ _ _______». ____ __ ___________ ______ __________ _ ______ ______?/Kak vy dumaete, chto znachit «S milym rai I v shalashe». Est' li ekvivalent etogo vyrazhenija v vashem jazyke? «_ ______ ___ _ _ _______» _______, ___ ___ ________ ________ ______ ________ ______, _____, ________ ____ ______, ______ ____ _ ______ _____, _________, ____, _______, _ ________, _______ ___ ____ ______ ____ ______. “S milym rai I v shalashe» znachit, chto nevazhno ckol'ko deneg chelovek imeet, lyudi, lyubyashchie drug druga, budut zhit' v lyubom dome, kvartire, ili, skazhem, v palatke, potomu chto oni lyubyat drug druga. A similar English saying: “A cottage is a castle for those in love.” Lesson 4 Г3 «Что име_ем, не храни_м, потеря_вши, пла_чем» зна_чит , что мы не оце_ниваем то, что у нас есть. «Chto imeem, ne xranim, poteryavshi, plachem» znachit, chto my ne otcenivaem to, chto u nas est'. A similar English saying: “You don't appreciae what you have until you lose it.” Lesson 7 Г3 «Что посе_ешь, то и пожнёшь» зна_чит, что вы бу_дете страда_ть от сле_дствие свои_х посту_пков. «Chto poseesh', to I pozhnyosh'” znachit, chto vy budete stradat' ot slegstvie scoikh postupkov. A similar English saying: “You reap what you sow.” (You suffer the consequences of your actions.) These are the four proverbs in question in my letter of yesterday: «___ _______ _ ______, ___ _ _____ ___» (Gde lyubov i sovet, tam i gorya net) «__ _______ _____ _______, _ _______ _________» (Ne krasna izba uglami, a krasna pirogami) «_ ________ ____ _________, ___ ____ __ __________» (V kotoryj den' parish'sya, v tot den ne starish'sya) «_____ _ ______ _________» (Doma i steny pomogayut) Thank you to those who have already responded! This morning brought a most interesting mailing from laroslav. Zita Dabars 7223 Lanark Road Baltimore, MD 21212 Phone and fax: (410) 821-1994 E-mail: zitad at aol.com Web site: www.basilproducts.com From yasicus at RAMBLER.RU Thu Jul 22 21:30:20 2010 From: yasicus at RAMBLER.RU (Iaroslav Pankovskyi) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 01:30:20 +0400 Subject: Clarification on Proverb help needed Message-ID: Thank you, Zita! Phraseology is the most exciting things ever!!! Sincerely, Iaroslav. * Zita Dabars [Thu, 22 Jul 2010 16:46:54 EDT]: > July 22, 2010 > > Dear Elena Ostrovskaya and other SEELANGERS: > > Having been asked to clarify my request of yesterday, regarding help > with > four proverbs, I have copied below the direction given to the students, > and > how the authors of the Answer Key to the «Mir russkikh» textbook handled > that > task in four lessons. We are not looking for literal translations into > English of the proverbs. > > I thought of sending examples of how we treat proverbs in three of the > lessons where we have found similar English sayings. Again, I will > transliterate in case the Cyrillic does not come through. But at no > point do we use > transliteration in the answer key. > > Lesson 2 > _3 ___ __ ________, ___ _______ «_ ______ ___ _ _ _______». ____ __ > ___________ ______ __________ _ ______ ______?/Kak vy dumaete, chto > znachit «S > milym rai I v shalashe». Est' li ekvivalent etogo vyrazhenija v vashem > jazyke? > > «_ ______ ___ _ _ _______» _______, ___ ___ ________ ________ ______ > ________ ______, _____, ________ ____ ______, ______ ____ _ ______ > _____, > _________, ____, _______, _ ________, _______ ___ ____ ______ ____ > ______. > “S milym rai I v shalashe» znachit, chto nevazhno ckol'ko deneg > chelovek > imeet, lyudi, lyubyashchie drug druga, budut zhit' v lyubom dome, > kvartire, > ili, skazhem, v palatke, potomu chto oni lyubyat drug druga. A > similar English saying: “A cottage is a castle for those in love.” > > Lesson 4 > Г3 «Что име_ем, не храни_м, потеря_вши, пла_чем» зна_чит > , что мы не оце_ниваем то, что у нас есть. > «Chto imeem, ne xranim, poteryavshi, plachem» znachit, chto my ne > otcenivaem to, chto u nas est'. A similar English saying: “You don't > appreciae what > you have until you lose it.” > > Lesson 7 > Г3 «Что посе_ешь, то и пожнёшь» зна_чит, что вы бу_дете > страда_ть от сле_дствие свои_х посту_пков. > «Chto poseesh', to I pozhnyosh'” znachit, chto vy budete stradat' ot > slegstvie scoikh postupkov. A similar English saying: “You reap what you > sow.” > (You suffer the consequences of your actions.) > > These are the four proverbs in question in my letter of yesterday: > > «___ _______ _ ______, ___ _ _____ ___» (Gde lyubov i sovet, tam i gorya > net) > > «__ _______ _____ _______, _ _______ _________» (Ne krasna izba uglami, > a > krasna pirogami) > > «_ ________ ____ _________, ___ ____ __ __________» (V kotoryj den' > parish'sya, v tot den ne starish'sya) > > «_____ _ ______ _________» (Doma i steny pomogayut) > > Thank you to those who have already responded! This morning brought a > most > interesting mailing from laroslav. > > > Zita Dabars > 7223 Lanark Road > Baltimore, MD 21212 > Phone and fax: (410) 821-1994 > E-mail: zitad at aol.com > Web site: www.basilproducts.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Fri Jul 23 14:18:29 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 15:18:29 +0100 Subject: Sally Laird Message-ID: Dear all, Sally Laird has not been working on things Russian for the last seven or eight years, but I am sure there are some of you who will know of her, or will have met her, or will know her translations of Petrushevskaya and Sorokin or the interviews collected in ³Voices of Russian Literature² (OUP). The deeply sad news I have to pass on is that Sally died, of cancer, two weeks ago. The funeral was today. It is very remiss of me not to have sent this message before the funeral. I am sorry. Sally was, some time ago, the editor of the excellent journal INDEX ON CENSORSHIP. I have written a few lines about her on the INDEX website. So has Natasha Perova. It would be great if other people could also write as much or as little as feels right to them. Here is the link: http://www.indexoncensorship.org/2010/07/sally-laird-obituary/ The address of her husband, Mark Lefanu, and her daughter Sylvia, is Bülowsgade 3, 8000 Århus C, Denmark Vsego samogo dobrogo, Robert ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From lave0093 at UMN.EDU Fri Jul 23 16:08:17 2010 From: lave0093 at UMN.EDU (Susan LaVelle) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 11:08:17 -0500 Subject: Discussion on language teaching in higher education Message-ID: Here is a link to an article found in the "Inside Higher Education" newsletter, discussing cross-disciplinary second-language approaches for intermediate college language study. There is at least one substantial and thoughtful comment at the end of the article worth reading, also. The article discusses an approach that perhaps many at SEELANGS have tried in some form or other already, but which is worth taking the time to understand as it may have applications to some current situations in the Academe. Although it will no doubt give rise to negative reactions by some readers, the article seems to do a good job of explaining the side presented and opening the discussion. Basically, the idea is that opportunities can be found to expand language learning beyond the strict bounds of the language department by pairing with other departments to offer cross-disciplinary classes, such as offering students the opportunity to study within their field (i.e., ecology, biology, business, etc.) in conjunction with a target language. http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/07/23/languages ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From edseelangs at GMAIL.COM Sat Jul 24 04:50:53 2010 From: edseelangs at GMAIL.COM (Edward Dumanis) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 00:50:53 -0400 Subject: walking, going In-Reply-To: <4C3B4921.4070802@georgetown.edu> Message-ID: However, if "ona" is, e.g., "konka" (a horse car), there is no need in adding any other words to get a repetitive meaning. Edward Dumanis On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Svetlana Grenier wrote: > Yes, it is clear: in "shla" she was "walking down the street", "walking > through the park"; in "khodila", she was "walking back and forth in the > street" or "he was walking around in the park."  Of course, if you add other > words (say "chasto khodila") it would mean something different. > At least, that's how it sounds to me! > > Svetlana Grenier > > gladney at ILLINOIS.EDU wrote: > >> Dear Russian Speakers, >> >> Here are four scenarios: >> >> 1. Ona shla po ulitse. >> >> 2. Ona khodila po ulitse. >> >> 3. Ona shla po parku. >> >> 4. Ona khodil po parku. >> >> Is it clear in each case what is going on? >> >> Spasibo zaranee, >> >> Frank Y. Gladney >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >>  options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >>                   http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > -- > Svetlana S. Grenier > > Associate Professor > Department of Slavic Languages > Box 571050 > Georgetown University > Washington, DC 20057-1050 > 202-687-6108 > greniers at georgetown.edu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >  options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >                   http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From greniers at GEORGETOWN.EDU Sat Jul 24 14:05:33 2010 From: greniers at GEORGETOWN.EDU (greniers at GEORGETOWN.EDU) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 10:05:33 -0400 Subject: walking, going In-Reply-To: Message-ID: However, if "ona" is, e.g., "konka" (a horse car), there is no need in adding any other words to get a repetitive meaning. Edward Dumanis Very true! I had not thought of that possibility! Svetlana Grenier ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From k2kingdom at GMAIL.COM Sun Jul 25 14:53:26 2010 From: k2kingdom at GMAIL.COM (Mark Kingdom) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 17:53:26 +0300 Subject: Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? Message-ID: "Your hair is like golden silk?" Dude, you wrote that to her? That's so corny. So, the meaning of corny I have in mind is "old-fashioned, and embarrassingly uncool." But I'm having a heck of a time finding a Russian equivalent. Any suggestions? Thanks to all in advance! Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Sun Jul 25 20:42:12 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 21:42:12 +0100 Subject: Teffi - 'Sobaka' - 'Vot tak Garri!' Message-ID: Dear all, The narrator in this story is talking about a long-ago incident in her life, around 1919, when she was infatuated with a vile man called Harry. It will eventually emerge that he has been working for the Cheka. But in these lines she is talking about a time before she learned this. Я была тронута Гарриной добротой. — Гарри, разве вам не было бы страшно прятать у себя белого офицера? Он чуть-чуть покраснел. — Пустяки! — пробормотал он. — Если встретите его снова, непременно — слышите? — непременно позовите к себе. Вот так Гарри! Способен на подвиг. Даже больше того — ищет подвига. Am I correct in hearing the whole of the last line as ironical in tone, i.e. imbued with an irony that springs from what she eventually learned about him? Something like: Harry was a fine fellow. Capable of heroism. Even going out of his way to display heroism. Vsego dobrogo, Robert ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU Sun Jul 25 20:51:57 2010 From: mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU (Melissa Smith) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 16:51:57 -0400 Subject: Russian proverbs - near English equivalents? Message-ID: Banya proverb -- Cleanliness is next to Godliness? Melissa Smith On 7/22/10 6:40 AM, anne marie devlin wrote: > Possibly the nearest equivalent for the first is 'love conquers all'; athough there is no mention of 'advice'. > > > Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 12:52:14 +0400 > > From: elena.ostrovskaya at GMAIL.COM > > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian proverbs - near English equivalents? > > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > > > Dear Zita, > > I am afraid I don't get what you / they mean by 'near equivalents'. > > Corresponding English proverbs? I'd be really surprised if there were one > > about banya. Or translation? Could you please clarify? > > Anyway, if you follow this link > > http://masterrussian.com/proverbs/russian_proverbs_3.htm > > > > you'll find equivalents and literal translation to your 1st and 4rth > > proverbs. > > For the 2nd, > > I'd say something like: The beauty of a home is hospitality, not decoration > > Literally: The beauty of a house is its pies, not its corners. > > > > All that keeping in mind that 'krasny ugol' is not a red corner, or even a > > beautiful corner, since 'krasny' here means 'good', or 'beautiful', but a > > place of worship where the ikons are > > > > http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Красный_угол > > . > > > > Thus the same thing can be understood in the religious line. > > > > 3. The day you go to banya, you don't get older that day. > > > > Hope that helps. > > Elena Ostrovskaya > > > > > > > > > > > > You'll find the > > equivalen and translation to your 1st and 3rd sayings. > > > > On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 7:17 AM, Zita Dabars wrote: > > > > > Thank you for your comments. > > > > > > I failed to say that the transliterated version (for which I was not > > > sufficiently accurate) will never appear in the "Answer Key to Mir > > > russkikh." The > > > transliteration was used only in the case that the Cyrillic did not appear > > > in the mailing which I sent to SEELANGS. > > > > > > Zita Dabars > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. > https://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------ Melissa T. Smith, Professor Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures Youngstown State University Youngstown, OH 44555 Tel: (330)941-3462 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Sun Jul 25 21:56:11 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 22:56:11 +0100 Subject: Teffi - Sobaka -Erunda Message-ID: And a second question. The narrator has just grasped that Harry has been cheating her in regard to money. И вдруг я поняла: это он съездил к тетке и представился как мой муж, а старая дура отдала ему мои деньги! — Сколько она дала вам? — спокойно спросила я. — Тысяч около тридцати. Ерунда! Я не хотел, чтобы мы растратили их по мелочам, и вложил их в это автомобильное дело. Does Harry’s ‘Erunda!’ mean ‘Nothing much!’ (i.e. That 30,000 roubles is only a small sum of money)? Or could it mean that his having deceived her is nothing serious, since he was doing it for a supposedldy sensible reason? R. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From english.online at YMAIL.COM Mon Jul 26 05:07:01 2010 From: english.online at YMAIL.COM (Olga Fields) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 22:07:01 -0700 Subject: Teffi - Sobaka -Erunda In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I would say he meant that don't worry, I will use it for serious business, as he says "Я не хотел, чтобы мы растратили их по мелочам" which shows that he considers this money as a good sum of money --- On Sun, 7/25/10, Robert Chandler wrote: From: Robert Chandler Subject: [SEELANGS] Teffi - Sobaka -Erunda To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Date: Sunday, July 25, 2010, 9:56 PM And a second question. The narrator has just grasped that Harry has been cheating her in regard to money. И вдруг я поняла: это он съездил к тетке и представился как мой муж, а старая дура отдала ему мои деньги! — Сколько она дала вам? — спокойно спросила я. — Тысяч около тридцати. Ерунда! Я не хотел, чтобы мы растратили их по мелочам, и вложил их в это автомобильное дело. Does Harry’s ‘Erunda!’ mean ‘Nothing much!’ (i.e. That 30,000 roubles is only a small sum of money)?  Or could it mean that his having deceived her is nothing serious, since he was doing it for a supposedldy sensible reason? R. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription   options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at:                     http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From A.Shafarenko at HERTS.AC.UK Mon Jul 26 11:15:34 2010 From: A.Shafarenko at HERTS.AC.UK (Alex Shafaremlp) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 06:15:34 -0500 Subject: Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? Message-ID: Although "corny" corresponds to the Russian word "banal'nyj" as in "a corny movie" banal'nyj film, translation can hardly ever be word-to-word. There is a very appropriate Russian word: poshlyj, which is so difficult to render precisely in English, but which is so very appropriate in the suggested context. I refer the interested reader to Nabokov's well known example of poshlost' (a blond lad swimming daily with two swans in the pond beneath his beloved's balcony ...) as well as the extensive critical writings on the subject. Regards, Alex ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Mon Jul 26 12:45:50 2010 From: j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:45:50 +0100 Subject: Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wouldn't disagree with any of this, but if you take Z.E. Aleksandrova's Slovar' sinonimov russkogo jazyka (my copy was published by Sovetskaja entsiklopedija in 1968, but there may be other editions) and look up банальный [banal'nyj], you will be offered seventeen suggestions, several of which may be appropriate. Curiously, if you look up пошлый [pošlyj], you are offered only вульгарный [vul'garnyj] and a cross-reference to непристойный [nepristojnyj], neither of which is helpful here. John Dunn. __, ______________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Alex Shafaremlp [A.Shafarenko at HERTS.AC.UK] Sent: 26 July 2010 13:15 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? Although "corny" corresponds to the Russian word "banal'nyj" as in "a corny movie" banal'nyj film, translation can hardly ever be word-to-word. There is a very appropriate Russian word: poshlyj, which is so difficult to render precisely in English, but which is so very appropriate in the suggested context. I refer the interested reader to Nabokov's well known example of poshlost' (a blond lad swimming daily with two swans in the pond beneath his beloved's balcony ...) as well as the extensive critical writings on the subject. Regards, Alex ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jul 26 12:54:03 2010 From: anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM (anne marie devlin) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:54:03 +0100 Subject: Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? In-Reply-To: <9B55785EA179DA42AAA6EA7F7DC9DB90A99D7D04F5@CMS01.campus.gla.ac.uk> Message-ID: A quick check on the much-maligned google translate will give platitudinous and flimsy as definitions of пошлый which seem in line with Nabokov's description and which therefore could relate to corny AMD > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:45:50 +0100 > From: j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > I wouldn't disagree with any of this, but if you take Z.E. Aleksandrova's Slovar' sinonimov russkogo jazyka (my copy was published by Sovetskaja entsiklopedija in 1968, but there may be other editions) and look up банальный [banal'nyj], you will be offered seventeen suggestions, several of which may be appropriate. Curiously, if you look up пошлый [pošlyj], you are offered only вульгарный [vul'garnyj] and a cross-reference to непристойный [nepristojnyj], neither of which is helpful here. > > John Dunn. > > > __, ______________________________________ > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Alex Shafaremlp [A.Shafarenko at HERTS.AC.UK] > Sent: 26 July 2010 13:15 > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? > > Although "corny" corresponds to the Russian word "banal'nyj" as in "a corny > movie" > banal'nyj film, translation can hardly ever be word-to-word. There is a very > appropriate Russian word: poshlyj, which is so difficult to render precisely > in English, but which is so very appropriate in the suggested context. I > refer the interested reader to Nabokov's well known example of poshlost' (a > blond lad swimming daily with two swans in the pond beneath his beloved's > balcony ...) as well as the extensive critical writings on the subject. > > Regards, > > Alex > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. https://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969 From mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU Mon Jul 26 16:24:01 2010 From: mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU (Melissa Smith) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 12:24:01 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: [SEELANGS] Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? Message-ID: I think "corny" doesn't have as negative overtones as the options here suggest. It is closer to клише, провиннциальный - I think of someone with cornsilk in their hair, a "hayseed." As Nellie Forbush sings in "South Pacific": "I'm as corny as Kansas in August" - there must be a Russian pop-culture equivalent! Melissa Smith On 7/26/10 8:54 AM, anne marie devlin wrote: > > A quick check on the much-maligned google translate will give platitudinous and flimsy as definitions of пошлый which seem in line with Nabokov's description and which therefore could relate to corny > > AMD > > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:45:50 +0100 > > From: j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK > > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? > > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > > > I wouldn't disagree with any of this, but if you take Z.E. Aleksandrova's Slovar' sinonimov russkogo jazyka (my copy was published by Sovetskaja entsiklopedija in 1968, but there may be other editions) and look up банальный [banal'nyj], you will be offered seventeen suggestions, several of which may be appropriate. Curiously, if you look up пошлый [pošlyj], you are offered only вульгарный [vul'garnyj] and a cross-reference to непристойный [nepristojnyj], neither of which is helpful here. > > > > John Dunn. > > > > > > __, ______________________________________ > > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Alex Shafaremlp [A.Shafarenko at HERTS.AC.UK] > > Sent: 26 July 2010 13:15 > > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? > > > > Although "corny" corresponds to the Russian word "banal'nyj" as in "a corny > > movie" > > banal'nyj film, translation can hardly ever be word-to-word. There is a very > > appropriate Russian word: poshlyj, which is so difficult to render precisely > > in English, but which is so very appropriate in the suggested context. I > > refer the interested reader to Nabokov's well known example of poshlost' (a > > blond lad swimming daily with two swans in the pond beneath his beloved's > > balcony ...) as well as the extensive critical writings on the subject. > > > > Regards, > > > > Alex > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. > https://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969 ------------------------------------ Melissa T. Smith, Professor Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures Youngstown State University Youngstown, OH 44555 Tel: (330)941-3462 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From maureen.riley at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jul 26 16:37:47 2010 From: maureen.riley at US.ARMY.MIL (Riley, Maureen Ms CIV USA DLI-W) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 12:37:47 -0400 Subject: Corny (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE The context suggests "lame". Surely there is someone out there well-versed in contemporary Russian slang who has an equivalent for that. Maureen Riley DLI-Washington Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Mon Jul 26 16:58:59 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 12:58:59 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: [SEELANGS] Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? In-Reply-To: <26809044.1280161441661.JavaMail.mtsmith02@ysu.edu> Message-ID: Melissa Smith wrote: > I think "corny" doesn't have as negative overtones as the options here > suggest. It is closer to клише, провиннциальный - I think of someone > with cornsilk in their hair, a "hayseed." > > As Nellie Forbush sings in "South Pacific": "I'm as corny as Kansas in > August" - there must be a Russian pop-culture equivalent! I've also seen/heard "corny" used in a sense very close to "sappy" -- sickeningly sweet, implausibly romantic, overdramatic like theater makeup compared to everyday makeup. In that sense it does contrast with the jaded big-city ways of doing things. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU Mon Jul 26 17:13:25 2010 From: hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU (Hugh McLean) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 10:13:25 -0700 Subject: Teffi - 'Sobaka' - 'Vot tak Garri!' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Robert, I think you are right about the irony, but the phrase "going out of his way to display heroism" strikes me as bookish and artificial. . How about "always looking for a chance to play the hero"? Hugh > Dear all, > > The narrator in this story is talking about a long-ago incident in her life, > around 1919, when she was infatuated with a vile man called Harry. It will > eventually emerge that he has been working for the Cheka. > > But in these lines she is talking about a time before she learned this. > > Я была тронута Гарриной добротой. > — Гарри, разве вам не было бы страшно прятать у себя белого офицера? Он > чуть-чуть покраснел. > — Пустяки! — пробормотал он. — Если встретите его снова, непременно — > слышите? — непременно позовите к себе. > Вот так Гарри! Способен на подвиг. Даже больше того — ищет подвига. > > Am I correct in hearing the whole of the last line as ironical in tone, i.e. > imbued with an irony that springs from what she eventually learned about > him? Something like: > > Harry was a fine fellow. Capable of heroism. Even going out of his way to > display heroism. > > Vsego dobrogo, > > Robert > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From russell-valentino at UIOWA.EDU Mon Jul 26 17:24:30 2010 From: russell-valentino at UIOWA.EDU (Valentino, Russell) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 12:24:30 -0500 Subject: Teffi - 'Sobaka' - 'Vot tak Garri!' In-Reply-To: <4C4DC235.8010203@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: It does sound ironic. The telegraphic quality seems important for that, too: That was Harry for you! Capable of heroism. Even more than that--he was in search of it. Or present tense. Russell -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Hugh McLean Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 12:13 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Teffi - 'Sobaka' - 'Vot tak Garri!' Dear Robert, I think you are right about the irony, but the phrase "going out of his way to display heroism" strikes me as bookish and artificial. . How about "always looking for a chance to play the hero"? Hugh > Dear all, > > The narrator in this story is talking about a long-ago incident in her life, > around 1919, when she was infatuated with a vile man called Harry. It will > eventually emerge that he has been working for the Cheka. > > But in these lines she is talking about a time before she learned this. > > Я была тронута Гарриной добротой. > - Гарри, разве вам не было бы страшно прятать у себя белого офицера? Он > чуть-чуть покраснел. > - Пустяки! - пробормотал он. - Если встретите его снова, непременно - > слышите? - непременно позовите к себе. > Вот так Гарри! Способен на подвиг. Даже больше того - ищет подвига. > > Am I correct in hearing the whole of the last line as ironical in tone, i.e. > imbued with an irony that springs from what she eventually learned about > him? Something like: > > Harry was a fine fellow. Capable of heroism. Even going out of his way to > display heroism. > > Vsego dobrogo, > > Robert > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From cxwilkinson at GOOGLEMAIL.COM Mon Jul 26 17:27:58 2010 From: cxwilkinson at GOOGLEMAIL.COM (Wilkinson, C.) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 18:27:58 +0100 Subject: Fwd: Re: [SEELANGS] Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? In-Reply-To: <4C4DBED3.3070506@pbg-translations.com> Message-ID: I'm wondering if тупой (tupoi) works - certainly forums such as http://www.galya.ru/clubs/show.php?id=24207 and http://otvet.mail.ru/question/8637471/ have plenty of examples (including the classics "Ой как красиво ты челку подстригла как лошадиная но тебе так идет!!" and "Ты такая тёпленькая, как поросёнок!"). Multitran also gives it as a possible translation of "sappy", although its suitability inevitably depends on one's interpretation of the original. Нелепый (nelepyi) might also be possible ( http://forum.justlady.ru/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8223&start=0) C.Wilkinson University of Birmingham On 26 July 2010 17:58, Paul B. Gallagher wrote: > Melissa Smith wrote: > > I think "corny" doesn't have as negative overtones as the options here >> suggest. It is closer to клише, провиннциальный - I think of someone with >> cornsilk in their hair, a "hayseed." >> >> As Nellie Forbush sings in "South Pacific": "I'm as corny as Kansas in >> August" - there must be a Russian pop-culture equivalent! >> > > I've also seen/heard "corny" used in a sense very close to "sappy" -- > sickeningly sweet, implausibly romantic, overdramatic like theater makeup > compared to everyday makeup. In that sense it does contrast with the jaded > big-city ways of doing things. > > -- > War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. > -- > Paul B. Gallagher > pbg translations, inc. > "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" > http://pbg-translations.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU Mon Jul 26 17:28:05 2010 From: hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU (Hugh McLean) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 10:28:05 -0700 Subject: Teffi - Sobaka -Erunda In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Robert, That's a tough one. The first solution seems linguistically more likely, the second psychologically. The persona obviously thinks of 30,000 rubles as a large sum, her entire savings, and is angry with her aunt for giving it to him. It sounds large to us, dollars or pounds. So his minimizing it seems like bravado (in my league, a mere pittance) or a defensive effort to play it down. On the other hand, if this is 1919, the economy was in shambles, terrific inflation, civil war, different kinds of paper money in circulation. Only gold coins were secure. So 30,000 paper rubles might well be "erunda" in real value. On the other hand, he has invested the money in an automobile business and might want to reassure her that the money is not only intact and safe, but will actually prove a lucrative investment. Hugh > And a second question. > > The narrator has just grasped that Harry has been cheating her in regard to > money. > > И вдруг я поняла: это он съездил к тетке и представился как мой муж, а > старая дура отдала ему мои деньги! > — Сколько она дала вам? — спокойно спросила я. > — Тысяч около тридцати. Ерунда! Я не хотел, чтобы мы растратили их по > мелочам, и вложил их в это автомобильное дело. > > Does Harry’s ‘Erunda!’ mean ‘Nothing much!’ (i.e. That 30,000 roubles is > only a small sum of money)? Or could it mean that his having deceived her > is nothing serious, since he was doing it for a supposedldy sensible reason? > > R. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From gusejnov at GOOGLEMAIL.COM Mon Jul 26 17:47:14 2010 From: gusejnov at GOOGLEMAIL.COM (Gasan Gusejnov) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 19:47:14 +0200 Subject: Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: a person younger than 40 would probably judge the phrase about "golden silk" as слишком пафосную, 45+ perhaps as слащавую (банальная or избитая are perhaps too bookish for corny) On 25 July 2010 16:53, Mark Kingdom wrote: > "Your hair is like golden silk?" Dude, you wrote that to her? That's so > corny. > > So, the meaning of corny I have in mind is "old-fashioned, and > embarrassingly uncool." > But I'm having a heck of a time finding a Russian equivalent. Any > suggestions? > > Thanks to all in advance! > > Mark > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Gasan Gusejnov / Гасан Гусейнов ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jekerr at CHARTER.NET Mon Jul 26 17:42:15 2010 From: jekerr at CHARTER.NET (James Kerr) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 12:42:15 -0500 Subject: seeking host families Message-ID: My name is James Kerr. I am a retired high school teacher from Troy, Il. I also work as a Lecturer in the History Dept. at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville. I have been working as a volunteer for about ten years for a nongovernmental agency in Washington, DC, American Councils for International Education. American Councils works to place high school students who have won scholarships sponsored by the US Dept. of State for study in American high schools. These programs include FLEX (Future Leaders Exchange,) for students from the nations of the former Soviet Union, YES (Youth Exchange Study) for students from some nations in Southeastern Europe, and A-SMYLE (American-Serbian and Montenegro Youth Exchange.) Recently, the US Embassy in Lithuania organized a new program funded by the State Dept. and called ExCEL. Currently, I am working to place several students from Russia and Ukraine, several of the students from Lithuania (who were just notified several weeks ago,) and a number of students from Serbia, Albania, and Kosovo. All the students will arrive in August for the beginning of the school year. Typically these students arrive in August and depart in May or June of the next year. They are required to maintain a “B” average in their schools and must complete a minimum of 30 hours of volunteer service. Host families must provide a place to sleep, a place to study, three meals and a snack daily, and transportation to and from school and school activities. The students receive a monthly stipend from the State Dept. for incidental expenses and come with full health insurance coverage. Last year I worked with eight students in the St. Louis area. Four of the eight maintained straight “A” averages in their respective schools. This year presents even greater challenges finding host families. I fear that these students may lose the scholarships they earned. That is why I am making a contact via listserve. I am looking for help and I am looking for suggestions. As you can imagine, in this economy it is difficult to find host families. If you know of a host family who would be interested in one of these students, please reply to this e-mail. If you would like to respond to the placement agency, I have listed a contact person below. I deeply appreciate your assistance. More importantly, the experiences that these students have could make a difference in the years to come. Thanks again. James Kerr PhD Local Coordinator 618 667 9858 jekerr at charter.net Brian Peterson Program Officer - Secondary School Programs American Councils for International Education 1828 L Street NW, Suite 1200 Washington, DC 20036 BPeterson at americancouncils.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Mon Jul 26 18:14:32 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 19:14:32 +0100 Subject: Teffi - Sobaka -Erunda In-Reply-To: <4C4DC5A5.9020101@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: Thank you, Hugh, for your messages! (Am receiving contradictory replies to both and keep changing my mind!) R. > Dear Robert, > That's a tough one. The first solution seems linguistically more likely, > the second psychologically. The persona obviously thinks of 30,000 > rubles as a large sum, her entire savings, and is angry with her aunt > for giving it to him. It sounds large to us, dollars or pounds. So his > minimizing it seems like bravado (in my league, a mere pittance) or a > defensive effort to play it down. On the other hand, if this is 1919, > the economy was in shambles, terrific inflation, civil war, different > kinds of paper money in circulation. Only gold coins were secure. So > 30,000 paper rubles might well be "erunda" in real value. On the other > hand, he has invested the money in an automobile business and might want > to reassure her that the money is not only intact and safe, but will > actually prove a lucrative investment. > > Hugh >> And a second question. >> >> The narrator has just grasped that Harry has been cheating her in regard to >> money. >> >> И вдруг я поняла: это он съездил к тетке и представился как мой муж, а >> старая дура отдала ему мои деньги! >> — Сколько она дала вам? — спокойно спросила я. >> — Тысяч около тридцати. Ерунда! Я не хотел, чтобы мы растратили их по >> мелочам, и вложил их в это автомобильное дело. >> >> Does Harry’s ‘Erunda!’ mean ‘Nothing much!’ (i.e. That 30,000 roubles is >> only a small sum of money)? Or could it mean that his having deceived her >> is nothing serious, since he was doing it for a supposedldy sensible reason? >> >> R. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ameliede at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 26 18:57:24 2010 From: ameliede at EARTHLINK.NET (J F Levin) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 11:57:24 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Re: [SEELANGS] Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? In-Reply-To: <4C4DBED3.3070506@pbg-translations.com> Message-ID: At 09:58 AM 7/26/2010, you wrote: >Melissa Smith wrote: > >> I think "corny" doesn't have as negative >> overtones as the options here suggest. It is >> closer to клише, >> провиннциальный - I think of >> someone with cornsilk in their hair, a "hayseed." >>As Nellie Forbush sings in "South Pacific": >>"I'm as corny as Kansas in August" - there must >>be a Russian pop-culture equivalent! "corny" says a lot more about American popcult than any Russian equivalent. I think we can understand it best by its opposite. Corny got its current connotations from the spread of a universal tone of irony with which everything must be viewed. Corny is the antithesis of that ironic tone. What is corny is just what it is, no joke. Having just seen the reprise of South Pacific in Los Angeles, I understand the significance of Forbush's being corny. Corny has not changed its denotation, only its connotation. We see a similar thing with "square". When George M. Cohan sang "And there is something there / That sounds so square / It's a grand old name", he had the same thing in mind as Buddy Holly singing "you're so square baby/I don't care". Only the connotation has changed. Does Russian culture have anything like this? Jules Levin Los Angeles ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From marinabrodskaya at GMAIL.COM Mon Jul 26 20:25:35 2010 From: marinabrodskaya at GMAIL.COM (Marina Brodskaya) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:25:35 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Re: [SEELANGS] Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? In-Reply-To: <4C4DBED3.3070506@pbg-translations.com> Message-ID: Постылый? On Jul 26, 2010, at 9:58 AM, "Paul B. Gallagher" wrote: > Melissa Smith wrote: > >> I think "corny" doesn't have as negative overtones as the options >> here suggest. It is closer to клише, провиннциальный - I think of >> someone with cornsilk in their hair, a "hayseed." >> As Nellie Forbush sings in "South Pacific": "I'm as corny as Kansas >> in August" - there must be a Russian pop-culture equivalent! > > I've also seen/heard "corny" used in a sense very close to "sappy" > -- sickeningly sweet, implausibly romantic, overdramatic like > theater makeup compared to everyday makeup. In that sense it does > contrast with the jaded big-city ways of doing things. > > -- > War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. > -- > Paul B. Gallagher > pbg translations, inc. > "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" > http://pbg-translations.com > > --- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > --- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From khrysostom at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 26 20:53:44 2010 From: khrysostom at YAHOO.COM (DBH) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:53:44 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Re: [SEELANGS] Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? In-Reply-To: <26809044.1280161441661.JavaMail.mtsmith02@ysu.edu> Message-ID: That doesn't mean that provincial Kansas is corny, it's a pun, since there's a lot of corn in Kansas in the summer. --- On Mon, 7/26/10, Melissa Smith wrote: > From: Melissa Smith > Subject: [SEELANGS] Fwd: Re: [SEELANGS] Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Date: Monday, July 26, 2010, 12:24 PM > I think "corny" doesn't have as > negative overtones as the options here > suggest.  It is closer to клише, > провиннциальный - I think of someone > with cornsilk in their hair, a "hayseed." > > As Nellie Forbush sings in "South Pacific": "I'm as corny > as Kansas in > August" - there must be a Russian pop-culture > equivalent!  > > Melissa Smith > > On 7/26/10 8:54 AM, anne marie devlin wrote: > > > > A quick check on the much-maligned google translate > will give > platitudinous and flimsy as definitions of пошлый > which seem in line > with Nabokov's description and which therefore could relate > to corny > > > > AMD > > > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:45:50 +0100 > > > From: j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK > > > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Equivalent to "corny"? > Any suggestions? > > > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > > > > > I wouldn't disagree with any of this, but if you > take Z.E. > Aleksandrova's Slovar' sinonimov russkogo jazyka (my copy > was published > by Sovetskaja entsiklopedija in 1968, but there may be > other editions) > and look up банальный [banal'nyj], you will be > offered seventeen > suggestions, several of which may be appropriate. > Curiously, if you > look up пошлый [pošlyj], you are offered only > вульгарный [vul'garnyj] > and a cross-reference to непристойный > [nepristojnyj], neither of which > is helpful here. > > > > > > John Dunn. > > > > > > > > > __, ______________________________________ > > > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European > Languages and Literatures > list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] > On Behalf Of Alex Shafaremlp > [A.Shafarenko at HERTS.AC.UK] > > > Sent: 26 July 2010 13:15 > > > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Equivalent to "corny"? > Any suggestions? > > > > > > Although "corny" corresponds to the Russian word > "banal'nyj" as in > "a corny > > > movie" > > > banal'nyj film, translation can hardly ever be > word-to-word. There > is a very > > > appropriate Russian word: poshlyj, which is so > difficult to render > precisely > > > in English, but which is so very appropriate in > the suggested > context. I > > > refer the interested reader to Nabokov's well > known example of > poshlost' (a > > > blond lad swimming daily with two swans in the > pond beneath his > beloved's > > > balcony ...) as well as the extensive critical > writings on the > subject. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > > Use your web browser to search the archives, > control your > subscription > > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the > SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > > Use your web browser to search the archives, > control your > subscription > > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the > SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > >      >          >            >   > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by > Microsoft. > > https://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969 > > ------------------------------------ > > Melissa T. Smith, Professor > Department of Foreign Languages and > Literatures  > Youngstown State University > Youngstown, OH 44555 > Tel: (330)941-3462 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription >   options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the > SEELANGS Web Interface at: >                 >     http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From A.Shafarenko at HERTS.AC.UK Mon Jul 26 20:53:34 2010 From: A.Shafarenko at HERTS.AC.UK (Alex Shafarenko) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 21:53:34 +0100 Subject: Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John, Anne-Marrie, Melissa, and Maureen, The issue, I believe, is more subtle than one might think. It all depends on the stylistic context and the narrative situation -- and, as I said, a word by itself can rarely be translated out of context. First, John. Yes, indeed "банальный" would do, as in: "банальное любовное послание". However, the word corny according to Mr Webster has the undertones of mawkishness and sentimentality, which is why I mentioned a corny movie to illustrate the sense in which the word was used in the original. Банальный does not AT ALL convey this in Russian. It is rather unemotional. For instance, a problem could have "банальное решение", i.e. a most straightforward, uninspired and uncontroversial one. As regards пошлый, yes, it has the connotation you mentioned, too: "пошлая шутка" is precisely a salacious joke. However, a very common apology: "простите, я волнуюсь и говорю пошлости", literally sorry, I am nervous and talk banalities, to a girl -- after you say to her that her teeth are like pearls, or her lips are red corals, or some other mawkish nonsense -- demonstrates that the word "пошлость" does not necessarily presuppose vulgarity or salaciousness. In fact, this particular context demonstrates another side of the rich (and barely translatable) semantic spectrum of it: ostentatious bad taste. "Пошлость" may or may not be vulgar, obscene, etc., but it is always in incredibly bad taste or it is not "пошлость" at all. That is why I am certain that the word "пошлый" fits the original context perfectly. To Anne-Marie: Google translation sucks, for instance flimsy has nothing to do with пошлый, while platitudinous (although seems very weak and too formal/pompous) has some connection. To Melissa: if I am not mistaken, corny has two different connotations: what you mentioned and the one referred to above. While being linked etymologically, they are otherwise seem completely disconnected in parlance; otherwise calling a Hollywood tear-jerker corny would not be correct in most cases. Indeed, if the context of the original example suggests that the golden silk simile is a provincial, peasant turn of a phrase, not just a trivial sappy, overblown compliment, then I am completely wrong and my position should be ignored, or rather used as an example of how translation is perilous without knowing the fullest possible context of the original. To Maureen: having spoken the language in question for well-nigh 50 years, I may be as well versed in it as any. Colloquial words for lame in the sense (of something intended to be entertaining) uninspired and dull are тоскливый, занудный, etc. None of them in my judgement can qualify a mawkish love letter. Or at least I can't imagine how it could. Having said that, I am not particularly familiar with Russian teenagers' jargon du jour... Regards, Alex Prof Alex Shafarenko University of Hertfordshire Hatfield, AL10 9AB, UK > > From: John Dunn > Date: 26 July 2010 13:45:50 GMT+01:00 > Subject: Re: Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? > > > I wouldn't disagree with any of this, but if you take Z.E. Aleksandrova's Slovar' sinonimov russkogo jazyka (my copy was published by Sovetskaja entsiklopedija in 1968, but there may be other editions) and look up банальный [banal'nyj], you will be offered seventeen suggestions, several of which may be appropriate. Curiously, if you look up пошлый [pošlyj], you are offered only вульгарный [vul'garnyj] and a cross-reference to непристойный [nepristojnyj], neither of which is helpful here. > > John Dunn. > > > > From: anne marie devlin > Date: 26 July 2010 13:54:03 GMT+01:00 > Subject: Re: Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? > > > > A quick check on the much-maligned google translate will give platitudinous and flimsy as definitions of пошлый which seem in line with Nabokov's description and which therefore could relate to corny > > > From: Melissa Smith > Date: 26 July 2010 17:24:01 GMT+01:00 > Subject: Fwd: Re: [SEELANGS] Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? > > > I think "corny" doesn't have as negative overtones as the options here > suggest. It is closer to клише, провиннциальный - I think of someone > with cornsilk in their hair, a "hayseed." > > As Nellie Forbush sings in "South Pacific": "I'm as corny as Kansas in > August" - there must be a Russian pop-culture equivalent! > > Melissa Smith > > > > From: "Riley, Maureen Ms CIV USA DLI-W" > Date: 26 July 2010 17:37:47 GMT+01:00 > Subject: Corny (UNCLASSIFIED) > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > The context suggests "lame". Surely there is someone out there > well-versed in contemporary Russian slang who has an equivalent for > that. > > > From: "Paul B. Gallagher" > Date: 26 July 2010 17:58:59 GMT+01:00 > Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [SEELANGS] Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? > > > Melissa Smith wrote: > >> I think "corny" doesn't have as negative overtones as the options here >> suggest. It is closer to клише, провиннциальный - I think of someone >> with cornsilk in their hair, a "hayseed." >> >> As Nellie Forbush sings in "South Pacific": "I'm as corny as Kansas in >> August" - there must be a Russian pop-culture equivalent! > > I've also seen/heard "corny" used in a sense very close to "sappy" -- > sickeningly sweet, implausibly romantic, overdramatic like theater > makeup compared to everyday makeup. In that sense it does contrast with > the jaded big-city ways of doing things. > > -- > War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. > -- > Paul B. Gallagher > pbg translations, inc. > "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" > http://pbg-translations.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Mon Jul 26 20:57:16 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:57:16 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: [SEELANGS] Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? In-Reply-To: <5EEF2C55-ACAB-4181-9DB8-4DD1D76FA962@gmail.com> Message-ID: Marina Brodskaya wrote: > On Jul 26, 2010, at 9:58 AM, "Paul B. Gallagher" > wrote: > >> Melissa Smith wrote: >> >>> I think "corny" doesn't have as negative overtones as the options >>> here suggest. It is closer to клише, провиннциальный - I think >>> of someone with cornsilk in their hair, a "hayseed." As Nellie >>> Forbush sings in "South Pacific": "I'm as corny as Kansas in >>> August" - there must be a Russian pop-culture equivalent! >> >> I've also seen/heard "corny" used in a sense very close to "sappy" >> -- sickeningly sweet, implausibly romantic, overdramatic like >> theater makeup compared to everyday makeup. In that sense it does >> contrast with the jaded big-city ways of doing things. >> > Постылый? I perceive that as too negative for the sense I have in mind. For me, the subtext is something like, "Perhaps you mean well, but it's too over the top, I'm not buying it." If I told a lady friend her eyes were "like limpid pools" (which of course is a literary turn of phrase), she might call it "corny" in part because it's so excessive as to be implausible and in part because it's not my wording, it's not genuine. It's also possible, I suppose, that a lady in a bar might reject a suitor's approach as "corny" with the implication that it was trite, tired, clichéd, and undeserving of respect -- again, because she didn't feel it was from his heart. A city girl wouldn't take that stuff seriously; she's heard it all before and can recite it by heart. A city boy wouldn't be so effusive, he would be subtle and artful, and "corny" is neither; it's heavy-handed and clumsy. None of this necessarily means that's what the speaker was doing; we're only discussing the meaning of the comment. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jhl9t at VIRGINIA.EDU Mon Jul 26 21:08:21 2010 From: jhl9t at VIRGINIA.EDU (John Lyles) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:08:21 -0400 Subject: Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? In-Reply-To: <1E6C7C49-2149-49DD-BCFF-42113D28BBB3@herts.ac.uk> Message-ID: Dear All, I would also be interested in learning how the list would translate "dude" in the sentence Mark proposed. I have a copy of The Big Lebowski with Russian subtitles, but I seem to remember the film translates The Dude as Дуд (dud) or something along those lines. Sincerely, John 2010/7/26 Alex Shafarenko > John, Anne-Marrie, Melissa, and Maureen, > > The issue, I believe, is more subtle than one might think. It all depends > on the stylistic context and the narrative > situation -- and, as I said, a word by itself can rarely be translated out > of context. > > First, John. Yes, indeed "банальный" would do, as in: "банальное любовное > послание". However, the word corny according to Mr Webster > has the undertones of mawkishness and sentimentality, which is why I > mentioned a corny movie to illustrate the sense in which > the word was used in the original. Банальный does not AT ALL convey this in > Russian. It is rather unemotional. For instance, > a problem could have "банальное решение", i.e. a most straightforward, > uninspired and uncontroversial one. As regards пошлый, yes, > it has the connotation you mentioned, too: "пошлая шутка" is precisely a > salacious joke. However, a very common apology: "простите, > я волнуюсь и говорю пошлости", literally sorry, I am nervous and talk > banalities, to a girl -- after you say to her that her teeth are like > pearls, or her > lips are red corals, or some other mawkish nonsense -- demonstrates that > the word "пошлость" does not necessarily presuppose vulgarity > or salaciousness. In fact, this particular context demonstrates another > side of the rich (and barely translatable) semantic spectrum of it: > ostentatious bad taste. "Пошлость" may or may not be vulgar, obscene, > etc., but it is always in incredibly bad taste or it is > not "пошлость" at all. That is why I am certain that the word "пошлый" fits > the original context perfectly. > > To Anne-Marie: Google translation sucks, for instance flimsy has nothing to > do with пошлый, while platitudinous (although seems > very weak and too formal/pompous) has some connection. > > To Melissa: if I am not mistaken, corny has two different connotations: > what you mentioned and the one referred to above. While being > linked etymologically, they are otherwise seem completely disconnected in > parlance; otherwise calling a Hollywood tear-jerker corny > would not be correct in most cases. Indeed, if the context of the original > example suggests that the golden silk simile is a provincial, > peasant turn of a phrase, not just a trivial sappy, overblown compliment, > then I am completely wrong and my position > should be ignored, or rather used as an example of how translation is > perilous without knowing the fullest possible > context of the original. > > To Maureen: having spoken the language in question for well-nigh 50 years, > I may be as well versed in it as any. Colloquial > words for lame in the sense (of something intended to be entertaining) > uninspired and dull are тоскливый, занудный, etc. > None of them in my judgement can qualify a mawkish love letter. Or at least > I can't imagine how it could. > Having said that, I am not particularly familiar with Russian teenagers' > jargon du jour... > > Regards, > > Alex > > Prof Alex Shafarenko > University of Hertfordshire > Hatfield, AL10 9AB, UK > > > > > > > > > From: John Dunn > > Date: 26 July 2010 13:45:50 GMT+01:00 > > Subject: Re: Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? > > > > > > I wouldn't disagree with any of this, but if you take Z.E. Aleksandrova's > Slovar' sinonimov russkogo jazyka (my copy was published by Sovetskaja > entsiklopedija in 1968, but there may be other editions) and look up > банальный [banal'nyj], you will be offered seventeen suggestions, several of > which may be appropriate. Curiously, if you look up пошлый [pošlyj], you > are offered only вульгарный [vul'garnyj] and a cross-reference to > непристойный [nepristojnyj], neither of which is helpful here. > > > > John Dunn. > > > > > > > > > > From: anne marie devlin > > Date: 26 July 2010 13:54:03 GMT+01:00 > > Subject: Re: Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? > > > > > > > > A quick check on the much-maligned google translate will give > platitudinous and flimsy as definitions of пошлый which seem in line with > Nabokov's description and which therefore could relate to corny > > > > > > > > > > From: Melissa Smith > > Date: 26 July 2010 17:24:01 GMT+01:00 > > Subject: Fwd: Re: [SEELANGS] Equivalent to "corny"? Any > suggestions? > > > > > > I think "corny" doesn't have as negative overtones as the options here > > suggest. It is closer to клише, провиннциальный - I think of someone > > with cornsilk in their hair, a "hayseed." > > > > As Nellie Forbush sings in "South Pacific": "I'm as corny as Kansas in > > August" - there must be a Russian pop-culture equivalent! > > > > Melissa Smith > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: "Riley, Maureen Ms CIV USA DLI-W" > > Date: 26 July 2010 17:37:47 GMT+01:00 > > Subject: Corny (UNCLASSIFIED) > > > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > The context suggests "lame". Surely there is someone out there > > well-versed in contemporary Russian slang who has an equivalent for > > that. > > > > > > > > > > From: "Paul B. Gallagher" > > Date: 26 July 2010 17:58:59 GMT+01:00 > > Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [SEELANGS] Equivalent to "corny"? Any > suggestions? > > > > > > Melissa Smith wrote: > > > >> I think "corny" doesn't have as negative overtones as the options here > >> suggest. It is closer to клише, провиннциальный - I think of someone > >> with cornsilk in their hair, a "hayseed." > >> > >> As Nellie Forbush sings in "South Pacific": "I'm as corny as Kansas in > >> August" - there must be a Russian pop-culture equivalent! > > > > I've also seen/heard "corny" used in a sense very close to "sappy" -- > > sickeningly sweet, implausibly romantic, overdramatic like theater > > makeup compared to everyday makeup. In that sense it does contrast with > > the jaded big-city ways of doing things. > > > > -- > > War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. > > -- > > Paul B. Gallagher > > pbg translations, inc. > > "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" > > http://pbg-translations.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jwilson at SRAS.ORG Mon Jul 26 21:13:18 2010 From: jwilson at SRAS.ORG (Josh Wilson) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 01:13:18 +0400 Subject: Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This one is, I think, relatively easy. Chuvak It's a slightly dated term, sounds a bit silly, but still used in youth culture on occasion... as is "dude" It's very nearly always translated this - see for example the surfer-tortoise in the Russian version of _Finding Nemo_ Josh Wilson Assistant Director The School of Russian and Asian Studies Editor in Chief Vestnik, The Journal of Russian and Asian Studies SRAS.org jwilson at sras.org -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of John Lyles Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 1:08 AM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? Dear All, I would also be interested in learning how the list would translate "dude" in the sentence Mark proposed. I have a copy of The Big Lebowski with Russian subtitles, but I seem to remember the film translates The Dude as Дуд (dud) or something along those lines. Sincerely, John 2010/7/26 Alex Shafarenko > John, Anne-Marrie, Melissa, and Maureen, > > The issue, I believe, is more subtle than one might think. It all depends > on the stylistic context and the narrative > situation -- and, as I said, a word by itself can rarely be translated out > of context. > > First, John. Yes, indeed "банальный" would do, as in: "банальное любовное > послание". However, the word corny according to Mr Webster > has the undertones of mawkishness and sentimentality, which is why I > mentioned a corny movie to illustrate the sense in which > the word was used in the original. Банальный does not AT ALL convey this in > Russian. It is rather unemotional. For instance, > a problem could have "банальное решение", i.e. a most straightforward, > uninspired and uncontroversial one. As regards пошлый, yes, > it has the connotation you mentioned, too: "пошлая шутка" is precisely a > salacious joke. However, a very common apology: "простите, > я волнуюсь и говорю пошлости", literally sorry, I am nervous and talk > banalities, to a girl -- after you say to her that her teeth are like > pearls, or her > lips are red corals, or some other mawkish nonsense -- demonstrates that > the word "пошлость" does not necessarily presuppose vulgarity > or salaciousness. In fact, this particular context demonstrates another > side of the rich (and barely translatable) semantic spectrum of it: > ostentatious bad taste. "Пошлость" may or may not be vulgar, obscene, > etc., but it is always in incredibly bad taste or it is > not "пошлость" at all. That is why I am certain that the word "пошлый" fits > the original context perfectly. > > To Anne-Marie: Google translation sucks, for instance flimsy has nothing to > do with пошлый, while platitudinous (although seems > very weak and too formal/pompous) has some connection. > > To Melissa: if I am not mistaken, corny has two different connotations: > what you mentioned and the one referred to above. While being > linked etymologically, they are otherwise seem completely disconnected in > parlance; otherwise calling a Hollywood tear-jerker corny > would not be correct in most cases. Indeed, if the context of the original > example suggests that the golden silk simile is a provincial, > peasant turn of a phrase, not just a trivial sappy, overblown compliment, > then I am completely wrong and my position > should be ignored, or rather used as an example of how translation is > perilous without knowing the fullest possible > context of the original. > > To Maureen: having spoken the language in question for well-nigh 50 years, > I may be as well versed in it as any. Colloquial > words for lame in the sense (of something intended to be entertaining) > uninspired and dull are тоскливый, занудный, etc. > None of them in my judgement can qualify a mawkish love letter. Or at least > I can't imagine how it could. > Having said that, I am not particularly familiar with Russian teenagers' > jargon du jour... > > Regards, > > Alex > > Prof Alex Shafarenko > University of Hertfordshire > Hatfield, AL10 9AB, UK > > > > > > > > > From: John Dunn > > Date: 26 July 2010 13:45:50 GMT+01:00 > > Subject: Re: Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? > > > > > > I wouldn't disagree with any of this, but if you take Z.E. Aleksandrova's > Slovar' sinonimov russkogo jazyka (my copy was published by Sovetskaja > entsiklopedija in 1968, but there may be other editions) and look up > банальный [banal'nyj], you will be offered seventeen suggestions, several of > which may be appropriate. Curiously, if you look up пошлый [pošlyj], you > are offered only вульгарный [vul'garnyj] and a cross-reference to > непристойный [nepristojnyj], neither of which is helpful here. > > > > John Dunn. > > > > > > > > > > From: anne marie devlin > > Date: 26 July 2010 13:54:03 GMT+01:00 > > Subject: Re: Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? > > > > > > > > A quick check on the much-maligned google translate will give > platitudinous and flimsy as definitions of пошлый which seem in line with > Nabokov's description and which therefore could relate to corny > > > > > > > > > > From: Melissa Smith > > Date: 26 July 2010 17:24:01 GMT+01:00 > > Subject: Fwd: Re: [SEELANGS] Equivalent to "corny"? Any > suggestions? > > > > > > I think "corny" doesn't have as negative overtones as the options here > > suggest. It is closer to клише, провиннциальный - I think of someone > > with cornsilk in their hair, a "hayseed." > > > > As Nellie Forbush sings in "South Pacific": "I'm as corny as Kansas in > > August" - there must be a Russian pop-culture equivalent! > > > > Melissa Smith > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: "Riley, Maureen Ms CIV USA DLI-W" > > Date: 26 July 2010 17:37:47 GMT+01:00 > > Subject: Corny (UNCLASSIFIED) > > > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > The context suggests "lame". Surely there is someone out there > > well-versed in contemporary Russian slang who has an equivalent for > > that. > > > > > > > > > > From: "Paul B. Gallagher" > > Date: 26 July 2010 17:58:59 GMT+01:00 > > Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [SEELANGS] Equivalent to "corny"? Any > suggestions? > > > > > > Melissa Smith wrote: > > > >> I think "corny" doesn't have as negative overtones as the options here > >> suggest. It is closer to клише, провиннциальный - I think of someone > >> with cornsilk in their hair, a "hayseed." > >> > >> As Nellie Forbush sings in "South Pacific": "I'm as corny as Kansas in > >> August" - there must be a Russian pop-culture equivalent! > > > > I've also seen/heard "corny" used in a sense very close to "sappy" -- > > sickeningly sweet, implausibly romantic, overdramatic like theater > > makeup compared to everyday makeup. In that sense it does contrast with > > the jaded big-city ways of doing things. > > > > -- > > War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. > > -- > > Paul B. Gallagher > > pbg translations, inc. > > "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" > > http://pbg-translations.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From greniers at GEORGETOWN.EDU Mon Jul 26 21:50:31 2010 From: greniers at GEORGETOWN.EDU (greniers at GEORGETOWN.EDU) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:50:31 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: [SEELANGS] Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? In-Reply-To: <5EEF2C55-ACAB-4181-9DB8-4DD1D76FA962@gmail.com> Message-ID: "Postylyi" means something altogether different: "возбуждающий к себе неприязнь, отвращение, надоевший" (Ozhegov dictionary). Almost something like "repulsive". Regards to all, Svetlana Grenier ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Edythe.Haber at UMB.EDU Tue Jul 27 00:28:53 2010 From: Edythe.Haber at UMB.EDU (Edythe Haber) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 20:28:53 -0400 Subject: Teffi - Sobaka -Erunda Message-ID: Dear Robert, I don't know if you're aware of my old translation of "Sobaka," published in Russian Literature Triquarterly, No. 9 (Spring, 1974): 117-36. It might be helpful for you to refer to it. As for your questions: I have no doubt that Teffi was being ironic in the first instance. As for the second, I assumed when I did my translation that the "erunda" was referring to the 30,000 rubles, and translated it as "A piddling amount." But now that I look at it again it does seem to make more sense that Harry (whom I call Garri) is talking about his own deception. I'm looking forward to your new translation. I think it's an excellent story that deserves to be better known.. Best wishes, Edythe Haber ________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list on behalf of Robert Chandler Sent: Sun 7/25/2010 5:56 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] Teffi - Sobaka -Erunda And a second question. The narrator has just grasped that Harry has been cheating her in regard to money. ? ????? ? ??????: ??? ?? ??????? ? ????? ? ???????????? ??? ??? ???, ? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ??????! - ??????? ??? ???? ???? - ???????? ???????? ?. - ????? ????? ????????. ??????! ? ?? ?????, ????? ?? ?????????? ?? ?? ???????, ? ?????? ?? ? ??? ????????????? ????. Does Harry's 'Erunda!' mean 'Nothing much!' (i.e. That 30,000 roubles is only a small sum of money)? Or could it mean that his having deceived her is nothing serious, since he was doing it for a supposedldy sensible reason? R. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Philippe.FRISON at COE.INT Tue Jul 27 09:30:42 2010 From: Philippe.FRISON at COE.INT (FRISON Philippe) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 11:30:42 +0200 Subject: FW: Creativity Message-ID: This is not a question. Enjoy. Philippe http://pelapapas.com.mx/htmls/animacion-arena-2.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Tue Jul 27 09:43:09 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 10:43:09 +0100 Subject: Russian proverbs - near English equivalents? In-Reply-To: <7227021.1280091117672.JavaMail.mtsmith02@ysu.edu> Message-ID: Re the banya - are we talking of proverbs that were in use before Soviet Russia? I wouldn't expect many Soviet proverbs to refer to God. Stephanie ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! FIRST SALE: 11/13/09! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ Got Your Spoon? Find out what they're all about (and find out a little about me too!) http://www.butyoudontlooksick.com/the_spoon_theory/ On 25 July 2010 21:51, Melissa Smith wrote: > Banya proverb -- Cleanliness is next to Godliness? > > Melissa Smith > > On 7/22/10 6:40 AM, anne marie devlin wrote: > > Possibly the nearest equivalent for the first is 'love conquers all'; > athough there is no mention of 'advice'. > > > > > Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 12:52:14 +0400 > > > From: elena.ostrovskaya at GMAIL.COM > > > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian proverbs - near English equivalents? > > > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > > > > > Dear Zita, > > > I am afraid I don't get what you / they mean by 'near equivalents'. > > > Corresponding English proverbs? I'd be really surprised if there > were one > > > about banya. Or translation? Could you please clarify? > > > Anyway, if you follow this link > > > http://masterrussian.com/proverbs/russian_proverbs_3.htm > > > > > > you'll find equivalents and literal translation to your 1st and 4rth > > > proverbs. > > > For the 2nd, > > > I'd say something like: The beauty of a home is hospitality, not > decoration > > > Literally: The beauty of a house is its pies, not its corners. > > > > > > All that keeping in mind that 'krasny ugol' is not a red corner, or > even a > > > beautiful corner, since 'krasny' here means 'good', or 'beautiful', > but a > > > place of worship where the ikons are > > > > > > > http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Красный_угол > < > http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%BB > > > > > . > > > > > > Thus the same thing can be understood in the religious line. > > > > > > 3. The day you go to banya, you don't get older that day. > > > > > > Hope that helps. > > > Elena Ostrovskaya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You'll > find the > > > equivalen and translation to your 1st and 3rd sayings. > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 7:17 AM, Zita Dabars wrote: > > > > > > > Thank you for your comments. > > > > > > > > I failed to say that the transliterated version (for which I was > not > > > > sufficiently accurate) will never appear in the "Answer Key to Mir > > > > russkikh." The > > > > transliteration was used only in the case that the Cyrillic did > not appear > > > > in the mailing which I sent to SEELANGS. > > > > > > > > Zita Dabars > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription > > > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface > at: > > > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription > > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. > > https://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > > ------------------------------------ > > Melissa T. Smith, Professor > Department of Foreign Languages and > Literatures > Youngstown State University > Youngstown, OH 44555 > Tel: (330)941-3462 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From michael.pushkin at BTOPENWORLD.COM Tue Jul 27 09:55:16 2010 From: michael.pushkin at BTOPENWORLD.COM (MICHAEL PUSHKIN) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 09:55:16 +0000 Subject: Source of comment on Tolstoy Message-ID: I have had this query from a colleague: Re the Dear SEELANGers, I have had this query from a colleague: Re the already very aged Tolstoy's thinking (in sum) (as he looks upon all the characters he has created in the books on his shelves) that God should grant him/decide that he must live to 125 so as to able to fulfil his remaining  plans. Do you know where this piece belongs ? Someone's memoirs? Gorky (a bit dubious perhaps). Bunin ? Any offers gratefully received. Thanks. Mike Pushkin CREES University of Birmingham UK ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jul 27 10:05:20 2010 From: anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM (anne marie devlin) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 11:05:20 +0100 Subject: Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? In-Reply-To: <1E6C7C49-2149-49DD-BCFF-42113D28BBB3@herts.ac.uk> Message-ID: Dear Alex, I agree that google translate sucks and as you may have seen from previous postings, I am not a great fan of literal dictionary translations in general. Intensive training should be given before people are allowed near dictionaries. You should be taught to consider the context - the who, what, why, where and when - first. A translation without human intervention, i.e. google, or even worse dictionary.com, is of course an abomination. I just wanted to make a point that connection between Пошлость and platitudes is so well-established that even google has it! AM > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 21:53:34 +0100 > From: A.Shafarenko at HERTS.AC.UK > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > John, Anne-Marrie, Melissa, and Maureen, > > The issue, I believe, is more subtle than one might think. It all depends on the stylistic context and the narrative > situation -- and, as I said, a word by itself can rarely be translated out of context. > > First, John. Yes, indeed "банальный" would do, as in: "банальное любовное послание". However, the word corny according to Mr Webster > has the undertones of mawkishness and sentimentality, which is why I mentioned a corny movie to illustrate the sense in which > the word was used in the original. Банальный does not AT ALL convey this in Russian. It is rather unemotional. For instance, > a problem could have "банальное решение", i.e. a most straightforward, uninspired and uncontroversial one. As regards пошлый, yes, > it has the connotation you mentioned, too: "пошлая шутка" is precisely a salacious joke. However, a very common apology: "простите, > я волнуюсь и говорю пошлости", literally sorry, I am nervous and talk banalities, to a girl -- after you say to her that her teeth are like pearls, or her > lips are red corals, or some other mawkish nonsense -- demonstrates that the word "пошлость" does not necessarily presuppose vulgarity > or salaciousness. In fact, this particular context demonstrates another side of the rich (and barely translatable) semantic spectrum of it: > ostentatious bad taste. "Пошлость" may or may not be vulgar, obscene, etc., but it is always in incredibly bad taste or it is > not "пошлость" at all. That is why I am certain that the word "пошлый" fits the original context perfectly. > > To Anne-Marie: Google translation sucks, for instance flimsy has nothing to do with пошлый, while platitudinous (although seems > very weak and too formal/pompous) has some connection. > > To Melissa: if I am not mistaken, corny has two different connotations: what you mentioned and the one referred to above. While being > linked etymologically, they are otherwise seem completely disconnected in parlance; otherwise calling a Hollywood tear-jerker corny > would not be correct in most cases. Indeed, if the context of the original example suggests that the golden silk simile is a provincial, > peasant turn of a phrase, not just a trivial sappy, overblown compliment, then I am completely wrong and my position > should be ignored, or rather used as an example of how translation is perilous without knowing the fullest possible > context of the original. > > To Maureen: having spoken the language in question for well-nigh 50 years, I may be as well versed in it as any. Colloquial > words for lame in the sense (of something intended to be entertaining) uninspired and dull are тоскливый, занудный, etc. > None of them in my judgement can qualify a mawkish love letter. Or at least I can't imagine how it could. > Having said that, I am not particularly familiar with Russian teenagers' jargon du jour... > > Regards, > > Alex > > Prof Alex Shafarenko > University of Hertfordshire > Hatfield, AL10 9AB, UK > > > > > > > > > From: John Dunn > > Date: 26 July 2010 13:45:50 GMT+01:00 > > Subject: Re: Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? > > > > > > I wouldn't disagree with any of this, but if you take Z.E. Aleksandrova's Slovar' sinonimov russkogo jazyka (my copy was published by Sovetskaja entsiklopedija in 1968, but there may be other editions) and look up банальный [banal'nyj], you will be offered seventeen suggestions, several of which may be appropriate. Curiously, if you look up пошлый [pošlyj], you are offered only вульгарный [vul'garnyj] and a cross-reference to непристойный [nepristojnyj], neither of which is helpful here. > > > > John Dunn. > > > > > > > > > > From: anne marie devlin > > Date: 26 July 2010 13:54:03 GMT+01:00 > > Subject: Re: Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? > > > > > > > > A quick check on the much-maligned google translate will give platitudinous and flimsy as definitions of пошлый which seem in line with Nabokov's description and which therefore could relate to corny > > > > > > > > > > From: Melissa Smith > > Date: 26 July 2010 17:24:01 GMT+01:00 > > Subject: Fwd: Re: [SEELANGS] Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? > > > > > > I think "corny" doesn't have as negative overtones as the options here > > suggest. It is closer to клише, провиннциальный - I think of someone > > with cornsilk in their hair, a "hayseed." > > > > As Nellie Forbush sings in "South Pacific": "I'm as corny as Kansas in > > August" - there must be a Russian pop-culture equivalent! > > > > Melissa Smith > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: "Riley, Maureen Ms CIV USA DLI-W" > > Date: 26 July 2010 17:37:47 GMT+01:00 > > Subject: Corny (UNCLASSIFIED) > > > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > The context suggests "lame". Surely there is someone out there > > well-versed in contemporary Russian slang who has an equivalent for > > that. > > > > > > > > > > From: "Paul B. Gallagher" > > Date: 26 July 2010 17:58:59 GMT+01:00 > > Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [SEELANGS] Equivalent to "corny"? Any suggestions? > > > > > > Melissa Smith wrote: > > > >> I think "corny" doesn't have as negative overtones as the options here > >> suggest. It is closer to клише, провиннциальный - I think of someone > >> with cornsilk in their hair, a "hayseed." > >> > >> As Nellie Forbush sings in "South Pacific": "I'm as corny as Kansas in > >> August" - there must be a Russian pop-culture equivalent! > > > > I've also seen/heard "corny" used in a sense very close to "sappy" -- > > sickeningly sweet, implausibly romantic, overdramatic like theater > > makeup compared to everyday makeup. In that sense it does contrast with > > the jaded big-city ways of doing things. > > > > -- > > War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. > > -- > > Paul B. Gallagher > > pbg translations, inc. > > "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" > > http://pbg-translations.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. https://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969 From philipkrobinson at GMAIL.COM Tue Jul 27 14:24:04 2010 From: philipkrobinson at GMAIL.COM (Philip Robinson) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 10:24:04 -0400 Subject: Teffi - 'Sobaka' - 'Vot tak Garri!' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Always looking for a chance to play the hero" could even be winnowed down to "always playing the hero." Phil 2010/7/26 Valentino, Russell > It does sound ironic. The telegraphic quality seems important for that, > too: That was Harry for you! Capable of heroism. Even more than that--he was > in search of it. Or present tense. > > Russell > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list > [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Hugh McLean > Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 12:13 PM > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Teffi - 'Sobaka' - 'Vot tak Garri!' > > Dear Robert, > > I think you are right about the irony, but the phrase "going out of his > way to display heroism" strikes me as bookish and artificial. . How > about "always looking for a chance to play the hero"? Hugh > > Dear all, > > > > The narrator in this story is talking about a long-ago incident in her > life, > > around 1919, when she was infatuated with a vile man called Harry. It > will > > eventually emerge that he has been working for the Cheka. > > > > But in these lines she is talking about a time before she learned this. > > > > Я была тронута Гарриной добротой. > > - Гарри, разве вам не было бы страшно прятать у себя белого офицера? Он > > чуть-чуть покраснел. > > - Пустяки! - пробормотал он. - Если встретите его снова, непременно - > > слышите? - непременно позовите к себе. > > Вот так Гарри! Способен на подвиг. Даже больше того - ищет подвига. > > > > Am I correct in hearing the whole of the last line as ironical in tone, > i.e. > > imbued with an irony that springs from what she eventually learned about > > him? Something like: > > > > Harry was a fine fellow. Capable of heroism. Even going out of his way > to > > display heroism. > > > > Vsego dobrogo, > > > > Robert > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ericson at AMERICANCOUNCILS.ORG Tue Jul 27 15:13:19 2010 From: ericson at AMERICANCOUNCILS.ORG (Brita Ericson) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 10:13:19 -0500 Subject: Russian Language and Area Studies Program Message-ID: It’s not too early to start planning for your spring semester! The spring semester deadline is October 1, 2010. American Councils for International Education: ACTR/ACCELS invites applications for the 2011 Advanced Russian Language & Area Studies Program (RLASP) in Vladimir, Moscow, or St. Petersburg, Russia. For over 30 years, American Councils has offered quality-assured, intensive language study programs in Russia for thousands of students and scholars. Participants of this program receive approximately twenty hours per week of in-class instruction in Russian grammar, phonetics, conversation, and cultural studies. Students greatly benefit from individual attention in our small classes of 2 to 6 students, and from interaction with host faculty who have extensive experience in second language acquisition. Additionally, qualified participants have the opportunity to take courses with Russians at the local host university in each city as part of our honors program. All participants receive undergraduate- or graduate-level academic credit through Bryn Mawr College. American Councils emphasizes language immersion outside of the academic program as well. During the semester, students may take advantage of volunteer opportunities or internship placements at sites including local public schools, charity organizations, international businesses, and international NGOs. Cultural excursions, discussion groups, and other extracurricular activities in Russian are offered in each city. Students also meet at least two hours a week with peer tutors recruited from the host university. Finally, most students choose to live with Russian host-families where they can become fully immersed in the language, culture and cuisine of Russia. American Councils is able to award substantial scholarships to qualified participants, thanks to significant grant support from the U.S. Department of Education (Fulbright-Hays) and the U.S. Department of State (Title VIII). In addition, recipients of FLAS, Boren, Benjamin A. Gilman and university fellowships frequently apply these funds to study on our programs. The Advanced Russian Language and Area Studies Program is offered in the Summer, Fall, Spring and Academic-Year semesters. American Councils also offers specialized programs for Heritage Speakers and those interested in studying Business Russian. More information and applications are available on our website: www.acrussiaabroad.org. Application Deadlines: Spring Semester: October 1 Summer Program: March 1 Fall/Academic Year: April 1 For more information, please contact: American Councils for International Education: ACTR/ACCELS 1828 L St., NW Suite 1200 Washington, DC 20036 outbound at americancouncils.org www.acrussiaabroad.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From colkitto at ROGERS.COM Wed Jul 28 06:16:06 2010 From: colkitto at ROGERS.COM (Robert Orr) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 02:16:06 -0400 Subject: gender in translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: http://www.litportal.ru/genre6/author3279/read/page/1/book15045.html I recently found this version of C.S. Lewis "the Last Battle" on line. Shift, the Ape, is referred to as "обезьян", in order to preserve the gender in the original text. "обезьян", however, seems to be a very rare (I hesitate to say "invented") form. Comments? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From asured at VERIZON.NET Wed Jul 28 08:15:23 2010 From: asured at VERIZON.NET (Steve Marder) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 04:15:23 -0400 Subject: Book for sale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: SEELANGS readers, Owing to an unfortunate ordering mishap, I find I have an extra copy of vol. 1 of a two-volume set of books: M.N. Priyomysheva, "Taynye i uslovnye yazyki v Rossii XIX v." Moscow: Nestor-Istoriya, 2009. 456 pp. Hardcover. 14 x 21 cm. Print run 500 copies. ISBN 9785981874390. I recently paid the normal retail price (see, e.g., http://tinyurl.com/25925ha) and will accept the first reasonable offer. If interested, please reply off-list to asured at verizon.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Wed Jul 28 14:23:07 2010 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 10:23:07 -0400 Subject: gender in translation In-Reply-To: <146AE4A7E8C04AD5A1B94B1F462181EB@owner2ef280411> Message-ID: The doublet жираф ‒ жирафа is rare and fortunate. When I want to praise my dog I often say "какой ты умный собак" with the fear that my kids would hear me and pick up the neologism instead of the correct one. Even though Russia has also masculine пёс, it has a different connotation and I cannot use it on my rather small bichon frisé. I think it's a good idea to create in fiction gender specific variants. AI On Jul 28, 2010, at 2:16 AM, Robert Orr wrote: > http://www.litportal.ru/genre6/author3279/read/page/1/book15045.html > > > I recently found this version of C.S. Lewis "the Last Battle" on > line. > Shift, the Ape, is referred to as "обезьян", in order to > preserve the gender > in the original text. "обезьян", however, seems to be a very > rare (I > hesitate to say "invented") form. > > Comments? > > Alina Israeli Associate Professor of Russian LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave. Washington DC 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From obukhina at ACLS.ORG Wed Jul 28 14:14:35 2010 From: obukhina at ACLS.ORG (Olga Bukhina) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 10:14:35 -0400 Subject: gender in translation In-Reply-To: A<146AE4A7E8C04AD5A1B94B1F462181EB@owner2ef280411> Message-ID: As an author of this translation (first published by the Variant-Dva Slona in 1991), I can vouch that it is an invented word, for the purpose of this very translation. The only other use I could see will be some children's rhyme, draznilka. This website, alas, did not bother to mention a translator. Olga Bukhina obukhina at acls.org -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Robert Orr Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 2:16 AM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] gender in translation http://www.litportal.ru/genre6/author3279/read/page/1/book15045.html I recently found this version of C.S. Lewis "the Last Battle" on line. Shift, the Ape, is referred to as "обезьян", in order to preserve the gender in the original text. "обезьян", however, seems to be a very rare (I hesitate to say "invented") form. Comments? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From moss at MIDDLEBURY.EDU Wed Jul 28 14:35:36 2010 From: moss at MIDDLEBURY.EDU (Kevin Moss) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 10:35:36 -0400 Subject: gender in translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I and many gay men across Central and Eastern Europe approve of gender play in all our inflected languages, in daily life as well as in fiction. On Jul 28, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Alina Israeli wrote: > The doublet жираф ‒ жирафа is rare and fortunate. > When I want to praise my dog I often say "какой ты умный > собак" with the fear that my kids would hear me and pick up the > neologism instead of the correct one. Even though Russia has also > masculine пёс, it has a different connotation and I cannot use it > on my rather small bichon frisé. > > I think it's a good idea to create in fiction gender specific > variants. > > AI > > On Jul 28, 2010, at 2:16 AM, Robert Orr wrote: > >> http://www.litportal.ru/genre6/author3279/read/page/1/book15045.html >> >> >> I recently found this version of C.S. Lewis "the Last Battle" on >> line. >> Shift, the Ape, is referred to as "обезьян", in order to >> preserve the gender >> in the original text. "обезьян", however, seems to be a very >> rare (I >> hesitate to say "invented") form. >> >> Comments? >> >> > > Alina Israeli > Associate Professor of Russian > LFS, American University > 4400 Massachusetts Ave. > Washington DC 20016 > (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 > aisrael at american.edu > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface > at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Wed Jul 28 14:55:39 2010 From: j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 15:55:39 +0100 Subject: gender in translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There is, alas, nothing new under the sun, and the Словарь русского языка XVIII в. (Vol. 15, p. 226, published only in 2005) records one occurrence of the masculine, albeit in the form облезьян. It is my impression, which others may be able to confirm or otherwise, that the back-formation of masculines from feminine nouns in the manner described by Olga Bukhina and Alina Israeli is not all that unusual in language play. John Dunn. ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Olga Bukhina [obukhina at ACLS.ORG] Sent: 28 July 2010 16:14 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] gender in translation As an author of this translation (first published by the Variant-Dva Slona in 1991), I can vouch that it is an invented word, for the purpose of this very translation. The only other use I could see will be some children's rhyme, draznilka. This website, alas, did not bother to mention a translator. Olga Bukhina obukhina at acls.org -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Robert Orr Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 2:16 AM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] gender in translation http://www.litportal.ru/genre6/author3279/read/page/1/book15045.html I recently found this version of C.S. Lewis "the Last Battle" on line. Shift, the Ape, is referred to as "обезьян", in order to preserve the gender in the original text. "обезьян", however, seems to be a very rare (I hesitate to say "invented") form. Comments? - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From A.Shafarenko at HERTS.AC.UK Thu Jul 29 09:04:42 2010 From: A.Shafarenko at HERTS.AC.UK (Alex Shafarenko) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 10:04:42 +0100 Subject: gender in translation Message-ID: This smacks of: Косматый облак надо мной кочует, И вверх уходят светлые стволы. and Ivanov's excellent parody: В худой котомк поклав ржаное хлебо, Я ухожу туда, где птичья звон. И вижу над собою синий небо, Косматый облак и высокий крон. Now the point. Ivanov concludes his pastiche with a line that explains it all: "Велик, могучий русский языка! " Indeed the Russian language is unimaginably mighty. One can construct a word of the "wrong" gender and use it. Be warned though that it does not come alone. It drags along a whole bunch of phonetic, semantic and semiotic links and will significantly colour the sentence it is used in. Specifically, to call a dog "собак" as a term of endearment is perfectly OK (even though the boringly correct word пёсик is every bit as good in my humble opinion). However, if it is used in a piece of creative writing, it might, for instance, hark back to Fima Sobak, a character from Ilf and Petrov's Twelve Chairs. That's your semiotic connection. I can imagine a context in which it might sound as a euphemistic substitution -- not unlike those in the Cockney rhyming slang. That's your phonetic link. Finally, semantics-wise one has to ask oneself what shades of meaning may be achieved by calling a dog собак rather than say кобель or пёс. Clearly the constructed word avoids the association with male dog behaviour: кобель is commonly linked with promiscuity and пёс with viciousness. To me собак sounds like a castrated male. Would that be the intended meaning? As regards the Russian Narnia, Обезьян produces a totally unintended comic effect by association with the youth-culture Armenian twist in the ending (cf Толик -> Толян). The original character is an old ape (not a monkey, which обезьяна is primarily associated with in the Russian language) . There would be no problem at all if the translator chose the word орангутанг. It is (a) an ape, (b) one that looks like an old wrinkly man, and (c) a masculine noun in Russian, which fits the original perfectly. Also bear in mind that modern-day Russian translators from English like their text to sound quite unnatural as Russian prose in its own right; I have noticed that a lot. I think the idea is that if it sounds quite un-Russian, then the foreign flavour of the original is somehow enhanced, which is "kinda cool". For instance, "I'd like to teach you a good lesson, baby!" tends to be rendered as a stilted "Я хотел бы тебя как следует проучить, крошка!" rather than, say, " Ох, я тебе и задам, милая", which would be precise in tone, style and meaning --- all at once. Regards, Alex Prof Alex Shafarenko University of Hertfordshire Hatfield, AL10 9AB, UK ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Ralph.Cleminson at PORT.AC.UK Thu Jul 29 09:37:13 2010 From: Ralph.Cleminson at PORT.AC.UK (Ralph Cleminson) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 10:37:13 +0100 Subject: gender in translation Message-ID: The problem is not only one of gender: although the connotative meaning of обезьяна is more or less the same as in English (hence обезьянничать и т.п.), the denotatative meaning is considerably wider (the Academy Dictionary actually defines мартышка as "маленькая обезьяна"). It would be interesting to know how translators of Terry Pratchett have got round that one. In Russian of an earlier period, of course, there is a word which satisfies both the criteria of gender and semantics, namely пифик: perfect in every respect except that the modern reader probably wouldn't know what it meant. And finally (I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this before): По улице ходила Большая крокодила, Она, Она Зеленая была. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jul 29 09:45:51 2010 From: anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM (anne marie devlin) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 10:45:51 +0100 Subject: gender in translation In-Reply-To: <4C5159D9020000420008D817@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk> Message-ID: The concept of gender in nonuns is so interesting and when talking about animate objects, grammatical gender and sex are easily confused. I'd be interested to know what you think about umnitsa and molodets. AM > Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 10:37:13 +0100 > From: Ralph.Cleminson at PORT.AC.UK > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] gender in translation > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > The problem is not only one of gender: although the connotative meaning > of обезьяна is more or less the same as in English (hence обезьянничать и > т.п.), the denotatative meaning is considerably wider (the Academy > Dictionary actually defines мартышка as "маленькая обезьяна"). It would > be interesting to know how translators of Terry Pratchett have got round > that one. > > In Russian of an earlier period, of course, there is a word which > satisfies both the criteria of gender and semantics, namely пифик: > perfect in every respect except that the modern reader probably wouldn't > know what it meant. > > And finally (I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this before): > > По улице ходила > Большая крокодила, > Она, > Она > Зеленая была. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Thu Jul 29 10:10:20 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 11:10:20 +0100 Subject: gender in translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have heard people say "Молодцы!" and "Молодца!" Stephanie ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! FIRST SALE: 11/13/09! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ Got Your Spoon? Find out what they're all about (and find out a little about me too!) http://www.butyoudontlooksick.com/the_spoon_theory/ 2010/7/29 anne marie devlin > The concept of gender in nonuns is so interesting and when talking about > animate objects, grammatical gender and sex are easily confused. I'd be > interested to know what you think about umnitsa and molodets. > > AM > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From k2kingdom at GMAIL.COM Thu Jul 29 10:22:36 2010 From: k2kingdom at GMAIL.COM (Mark Kingdom) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 13:22:36 +0300 Subject: "=?KOI8-R?Q?=ED=CF=CC=CF=C4=C3=D9!=22?= Message-ID: Yes, Russians definitely say "Молодцы!" When the local soccer club here in Sevastopol one some kind of championship this spring, the whole crowd was cheering ""Молодцы!" over and over. I'm like, "Wait, people! Isn't it молодец?" Mark 2010/7/29 Stephanie Briggs > I have heard people say "Молодцы!" and "Молодца!" > > Stephanie > ***************************** > ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs > http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ > > Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! > FIRST SALE: 11/13/09! > http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ > > Got Your Spoon? Find out what they're all about (and find out a little > about > me too!) > http://www.butyoudontlooksick.com/the_spoon_theory/ > > > 2010/7/29 anne marie devlin > > > The concept of gender in nonuns is so interesting and when talking about > > animate objects, grammatical gender and sex are easily confused. I'd be > > interested to know what you think about umnitsa and molodets. > > > > AM > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Thu Jul 29 10:22:34 2010 From: j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 11:22:34 +0100 Subject: gender in translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Three quick points: The word oблак is, I think, different from the other examples, in that it was at one time an acceptable alternative to облако (the 17-volume Dictionary iists it as устар.). On the question of sex and grammatical gender, it is sometimes possible to use masculine nouns to refer to women (or female animals), but it is much harder to find examples where the reverse happens. The only instances I can think of are certain nouns of indirect reference, such as жертва and звезда. This apparent restriction may be one reason why it is sometimes felt appropriate to resort to playful back formations of the type we have been talking about. Finally, doing clever tricks with word-formation devices is not a game played only by Russians. As P.G. Wodehouse wrote: '... I could see that, if not exactly disgruntled, he was far from being gruntled ... ' John Dunn. ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of anne marie devlin [anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM] Sent: 29 July 2010 11:45 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] gender in translation The concept of gender in nonuns is so interesting and when talking about animate objects, grammatical gender and sex are easily confused. I'd be interested to know what you think about umnitsa and molodets. AM > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From maberdy at GMAIL.COM Thu Jul 29 10:50:18 2010 From: maberdy at GMAIL.COM (Michele A. Berdy) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 14:50:18 +0400 Subject: gender in translation Message-ID: > On the question of sex and grammatical gender, it is sometimes possible to > use masculine nouns to refer to women (or female animals), but it is much > harder to find examples where the reverse happens. I got very interested in this at one point and asked a Russian translator friend to put together a list of examples from literature of men being referred to as mamochka, milasha, golubushka, milochka, etc. and women referred to as golubchik, brat, zolotoi, etc. He says that changing the gender intensifies the sense of affection and intimacy. (Would you all agree?) I never knew quite what to make of this, and so it remains in a file of "topics to figure out some day." I would be very interested in any research on the subject. Here's a related question for the British speakers on the list: in my paperback version of Sayer's Gaudy Night, the women students refer to each other as Brother So-and-so. But in later editions (it appears), the text was corrected to "Oh, bother!" or "Bother!" Does anyone know if British women university students (in the 30s?) ever called each other Brother? (I had jumped on this as an analagous example in English, but then abandoned it.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From af38 at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Jul 29 11:46:10 2010 From: af38 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Anna Frajlich-Zajac) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 07:46:10 -0400 Subject: "=?UTF-8?Q?=D0=9C=D0=BE=D0=BB=D0=BE=D0=B4=D1=86_=D1=8B!=22?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Singular and Plural. Isn't it? AF _______________________________ On Jul 29, 2010, at 6:22 AM, Mark Kingdom wrote: > Yes, Russians definitely say "Молодцы!" When the local soccer club > here in Sevastopol one some kind of championship this spring, the > whole > crowd was cheering ""Молодцы!" over and over. I'm like, "Wait, people! > Isn't it молодец?" > > Mark > > > > 2010/7/29 Stephanie Briggs > >> I have heard people say "Молодцы!" and "Молодца!" >> >> Stephanie >> ***************************** >> ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs >> http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ >> >> Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! >> FIRST SALE: 11/13/09! >> http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ >> >> Got Your Spoon? Find out what they're all about (and find out a >> little >> about >> me too!) >> http://www.butyoudontlooksick.com/the_spoon_theory/ >> >> >> 2010/7/29 anne marie devlin >> >>> The concept of gender in nonuns is so interesting and when >>> talking about >>> animate objects, grammatical gender and sex are easily confused. >>> I'd be >>> interested to know what you think about umnitsa and molodets. >>> >>> AM >>> >>> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ---- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your >> subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface >> at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ---- >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface > at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sforres1 at SWARTHMORE.EDU Thu Jul 29 13:44:31 2010 From: sforres1 at SWARTHMORE.EDU (Sibelan Forrester) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 09:44:31 -0400 Subject: gender in translation In-Reply-To: <9B55785EA179DA42AAA6EA7F7DC9DB90A99D7D04FE@CMS01.campus.gla.ac.uk> Message-ID: As John's post suggests, the intention or genre of a text can predominate over a language's or literary tradition's usual tendencies. It's telling that you mention Wodehouse, John: wordplay of this kind tends to correlate to humorous writing (at least, it does in English). On a similar note, though perhaps without connotations of gender play, the English-language poet whose play with rhymes seems most similar to Mayakovsky's is Ogden Nash, though on the whole Russian and Anglo-American rhyming practices tended to diverge in the 20th century. Regards, Sibelan On 7/29/10 6:22 AM, John Dunn wrote: > Three quick points: > > The word oблак is, I think, different from the other examples, in that it was at one time an acceptable alternative to облако (the 17-volume Dictionary iists it as устар.). > > On the question of sex and grammatical gender, it is sometimes possible to use masculine nouns to refer to women (or female animals), but it is much harder to find examples where the reverse happens. The only instances I can think of are certain nouns of indirect reference, such as жертва and звезда. This apparent restriction may be one reason why it is sometimes felt appropriate to resort to playful back formations of the type we have been talking about. > > Finally, doing clever tricks with word-formation devices is not a game played only by Russians. As P.G. Wodehouse wrote: '... I could see that, if not exactly disgruntled, he was far from being gruntled ... ' > > John Dunn. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Thu Jul 29 14:50:39 2010 From: j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 15:50:39 +0100 Subject: gender in translation In-Reply-To: <4C5185BF.5000905@swarthmore.edu> Message-ID: There is, I would imagine, a thesis to be written comparing the humorous use of linguistic and paralinguistic devices in English and Russian. It strikes me that in English word-play tends to be an end in itself, and I am not sure whether that is true to the same extent in Russian. As for rhyme, I tend to think that the English-language light verse tradition, including such 19th-century practitioners as Thomas Hood (with his fondness for punning rhymes) and W.S. Gilbert, has a lot to answer for. It is difficult nowadays to use rhyme in English for anything other than humorous effect, which is why I have serious reservations about rhymed translations of Russian poetry. John Dunn. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Thu Jul 29 15:02:39 2010 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 11:02:39 -0400 Subject: gender in translation In-Reply-To: <1FD57A24-3FF1-4CB2-AECE-35B3FF38A1DD@herts.ac.uk> Message-ID: 1. I must say that I am a lot happier with the ironic statement of Ivanov. I firmly believe that the phrase "великий и могучий" should be used only in ironic contexts these days. As for пёсик it's a nice word, but much too common (as in "common man", not "frequent") and terms of endearment have to have pizzazz. (Although I would not call песик "corny" — плоско, избито, пошло.) 2. On the subject of Молодца! I am not sure it is feminine. 3. Умница is common gender. Emotive common gender words tend to be used in feminine even when applied to men. Here grandfather says to grandson: Умница ты моя! (http://books.google.com/books?id=yC0bAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=% 22%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0+%D1%82%D1%8B+%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%8F %22+%D0%BC%D0% BE&source=bl&ots=3pwMAsJOLP&sig=7xfzr0gS6XKOXKWNZILZGvpHuaU&hl=en&ei=z5Z RTJzcM4L58Ab_qISTBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDEQ6AEw BQ#v=onepage&q=%22%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0%20%D1%82%D1%8B% 20%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%8F%22%20%D0%BC%D0%BE&f=false) On Jul 29, 2010, at 5:04 AM, Alex Shafarenko wrote: > > Ivanov concludes his pastiche with a line that explains it all: > "Велик, могучий русский языка! " > Indeed the Russian language is unimaginably mighty. One can > construct a word of the > "wrong" gender and use it. Be warned though that it does not come > alone. It drags along > a whole bunch of phonetic, semantic and semiotic links and will > significantly colour > the sentence it is used in. > > Specifically, to call a dog "собак" as a term of endearment is > perfectly OK (even though > the boringly correct word пёсик is every bit as good in my humble > opinion). > On Jul 29, 2010, at 6:10 AM, Stephanie Briggs wrote: > >> I have heard people say "Молодцы!" and "Молодца!" > > On Jul 29, 2010, at 5:45 AM, anne marie devlin wrote: > >> The concept of gender in nonuns is so interesting and when talking >> about animate objects, grammatical gender and sex are easily >> confused. I'd be interested to know what you think about umnitsa >> and molodets. >> Alina Israeli Associate Professor of Russian LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave. Washington DC 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Thu Jul 29 15:11:08 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 16:11:08 +0100 Subject: gender in translation In-Reply-To: <9B55785EA179DA42AAA6EA7F7DC9DB90A99D7D0500@CMS01.campus.gla.ac.uk> Message-ID: Dear John and all, > It is difficult nowadays to use rhyme in English for anything other than > humorous effect, which is why I have serious reservations about rhymed > translations of Russian poetry. This is completely untrue. There are many deeply serious poems still being written in rhyme. Have a look at the work of Mimi Khalvati or Richard Wilbur. Or, going back only a few years, Larkin and Anthony Hecht. The problem with rhymed translations is simply that most of the time we are not skilled enough. Stanley Mitchell, however, rhymes fluently and wittily throughout the whole of his recent translation of ONEGIN. Best Wishes, Robert ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jul 29 15:19:07 2010 From: anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM (anne marie devlin) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 16:19:07 +0100 Subject: gender in translation In-Reply-To: <37A0752B-F10F-41E8-A03A-61CD291F5780@american.edu> Message-ID: I was wondering if there have been any attempts to 'de-gender' such emotive words. As we know, English has been trying to replace words such as chairman with chairperson - however research has shown that where chairperson is used by the press that it usually refers to a female!. In French the word professeur can now be grammatically masculine or feminine. Madame la professeur is now in use. So would it be possible to use Умница or убийца with a masculine adjective, or what about a masculine ending past tense verb? AM > Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 11:02:39 -0400 > From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] gender in translation > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > 1. I must say that I am a lot happier with the ironic statement of > Ivanov. I firmly believe that the phrase "великий и могучий" should > be used only in ironic contexts these days. > > As for пёсик it's a nice word, but much too common (as in "common > man", not "frequent") and terms of endearment have to have pizzazz. > (Although I would not call песик "corny" — плоско, избито, пошло.) > > 2. On the subject of Молодца! I am not sure it is feminine. > > 3. Умница is common gender. Emotive common gender words tend to be > used in feminine even when applied to men. Here grandfather says to > grandson: Умница ты моя! > > (http://books.google.com/books?id=yC0bAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=% > 22%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0+%D1%82%D1%8B+%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%8F > %22+%D0%BC%D0% > BE&source=bl&ots=3pwMAsJOLP&sig=7xfzr0gS6XKOXKWNZILZGvpHuaU&hl=en&ei=z5Z > RTJzcM4L58Ab_qISTBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDEQ6AEw > BQ#v=onepage&q=%22%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0%20%D1%82%D1%8B% > 20%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%8F%22%20%D0%BC%D0%BE&f=false) > > > On Jul 29, 2010, at 5:04 AM, Alex Shafarenko wrote: > > > > > Ivanov concludes his pastiche with a line that explains it all: > > "Велик, могучий русский языка! " > > Indeed the Russian language is unimaginably mighty. One can > > construct a word of the > > "wrong" gender and use it. Be warned though that it does not come > > alone. It drags along > > a whole bunch of phonetic, semantic and semiotic links and will > > significantly colour > > the sentence it is used in. > > > > Specifically, to call a dog "собак" as a term of endearment is > > perfectly OK (even though > > the boringly correct word пёсик is every bit as good in my humble > > opinion). > > > > On Jul 29, 2010, at 6:10 AM, Stephanie Briggs wrote: > > > >> I have heard people say "Молодцы!" and "Молодца!" > > > > On Jul 29, 2010, at 5:45 AM, anne marie devlin wrote: > > > >> The concept of gender in nonuns is so interesting and when talking > >> about animate objects, grammatical gender and sex are easily > >> confused. I'd be interested to know what you think about umnitsa > >> and molodets. > >> > > Alina Israeli > Associate Professor of Russian > LFS, American University > 4400 Massachusetts Ave. > Washington DC 20016 > (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 > aisrael at american.edu > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From obukhina at ACLS.ORG Thu Jul 29 15:14:33 2010 From: obukhina at ACLS.ORG (Olga Bukhina) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 11:14:33 -0400 Subject: gender in translation In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: Another nice example of playing with gender in poetry is Vera Inber's poem Moja devochka. - Завтра, значит, будет праздница? - Праздник, Жана, говорят. - Всё равно, какая разница, Лишь бы дали шоколад. - Будет всё, мой мальчик миленький, Будет даже детский бал. Знаешь: повар в старом валенке Утром мышку увидал. - Мама, ты всегда проказница: Я не мальчик. Я же дочь - Всё равно, какая разница, Спи, мой мальчик, скоро ночь. Olga Bukhina obukhina at acls.org -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of anne marie devlin Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:19 AM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] gender in translation I was wondering if there have been any attempts to 'de-gender' such emotive words. As we know, English has been trying to replace words such as chairman with chairperson - however research has shown that where chairperson is used by the press that it usually refers to a female!. In French the word professeur can now be grammatically masculine or feminine. Madame la professeur is now in use. So would it be possible to use Умница or убийца with a masculine adjective, or what about a masculine ending past tense verb? AM > Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 11:02:39 -0400 > From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] gender in translation > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > 1. I must say that I am a lot happier with the ironic statement of > Ivanov. I firmly believe that the phrase "великий и могучий" should > be used only in ironic contexts these days. > > As for пёсик it's a nice word, but much too common (as in "common > man", not "frequent") and terms of endearment have to have pizzazz. > (Although I would not call песик "corny" - плоско, избито, пошло.) > > 2. On the subject of Молодца! I am not sure it is feminine. > > 3. Умница is common gender. Emotive common gender words tend to be > used in feminine even when applied to men. Here grandfather says to > grandson: Умница ты моя! > > (http://books.google.com/books?id=yC0bAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=% > 22%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0+%D1%82%D1%8B+%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%8F > %22+%D0%BC%D0% > BE&source=bl&ots=3pwMAsJOLP&sig=7xfzr0gS6XKOXKWNZILZGvpHuaU&hl=en&ei=z5Z > RTJzcM4L58Ab_qISTBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDEQ6AEw > BQ#v=onepage&q=%22%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0%20%D1%82%D1%8B% > 20%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%8F%22%20%D0%BC%D0%BE&f=false) > > > On Jul 29, 2010, at 5:04 AM, Alex Shafarenko wrote: > > > > > Ivanov concludes his pastiche with a line that explains it all: > > "Велик, могучий русский языка! " > > Indeed the Russian language is unimaginably mighty. One can > > construct a word of the > > "wrong" gender and use it. Be warned though that it does not come > > alone. It drags along > > a whole bunch of phonetic, semantic and semiotic links and will > > significantly colour > > the sentence it is used in. > > > > Specifically, to call a dog "собак" as a term of endearment is > > perfectly OK (even though > > the boringly correct word пёсик is every bit as good in my humble > > opinion). > > > > On Jul 29, 2010, at 6:10 AM, Stephanie Briggs wrote: > > > >> I have heard people say "Молодцы!" and "Молодца!" > > > > On Jul 29, 2010, at 5:45 AM, anne marie devlin wrote: > > > >> The concept of gender in nonuns is so interesting and when talking > >> about animate objects, grammatical gender and sex are easily > >> confused. I'd be interested to know what you think about umnitsa > >> and molodets. > >> > > Alina Israeli > Associate Professor of Russian > LFS, American University > 4400 Massachusetts Ave. > Washington DC 20016 > (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 > aisrael at american.edu > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Thu Jul 29 15:35:29 2010 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 11:35:29 -0400 Subject: gender in translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: English has no gender, only sex, so the attempt is to obscure the gender, hence "chairperson" or even "chair" (which sounded very strange 30 years ago). Russian is more like French "Madame la ministre" model (or German Kanzlerin): коллега and судья were strictly masculine some 50 years ago, now they are common gender, hence дорогая коллега, умная судья. I am personally always perplexed by the Lithuanian way to divulge woman's marital status in last names. English created Ms. in order not to have Miss vs. Mrs, French address all women "madame" (Italians and Spanish check the left hand in the absence of a man next to her), but how would Lithuanians ever cope with the problem? On Jul 29, 2010, at 11:19 AM, anne marie devlin wrote: > I was wondering if there have been any attempts to 'de-gender' such > emotive words. As we know, English has been trying to replace > words such as chairman with chairperson - however research has > shown that where chairperson is used by the press that it usually > refers to a female!. In French the word professeur can now be > grammatically masculine or feminine. Madame la professeur is now > in use. So would it be possible to use Умница or убийца with a > masculine adjective, or what about a masculine ending past tense verb? > > Alina Israeli Associate Professor of Russian LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave. Washington DC 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Thu Jul 29 15:39:12 2010 From: j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 16:39:12 +0100 Subject: gender in translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In today's Independent there is an interview with Evgenij Chichvarkin, a Russian businessman, whom the Russian authorities are seeking to have extradited from London. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/news/the-whiz-kid-billionaire-who-says-he-cant-go-home-2038006.html In the interview Mr Chichvarkin describes himself as a house husband, a term which someone has translated as муж-домохозяйка: http://www.newsru.com/world/29jul2010/chich.html Incidentally, newsru.com also has an interseting article on ё: http://www.newsru.com/russia/29jul2010/yo.html John Dunn. ________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Thu Jul 29 16:42:26 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 12:42:26 -0400 Subject: "=?KOI8-R?Q?=ED=CF=CC=CF=C4=C3=D9!=22?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark Kingdom wrote: > Yes, Russians definitely say "Молодцы!" When the local soccer club > here in Sevastopol one some kind of championship this spring, the > whole crowd was cheering ""Молодцы!" over and over. I'm like, "Wait, > people! Isn't it молодец?" That one's not new. It was in my first-year textbook when I started learning Russian (mumble) decades ago, and my dictionary lists the plural with a quote from /Three Sisters/. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From a.shafarenko at HERTS.AC.UK Thu Jul 29 17:01:37 2010 From: a.shafarenko at HERTS.AC.UK (Shafarenko, Alex) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 18:01:37 +0100 Subject: gender in translation Message-ID: I wonder when the "nowadays" in John's message below started. It certainly was not difficult for Betjeman and Larkin to write serious rhymed poetry, and they are not 19th century light verse practitioners, to say nothing of Frost and Auden, so perhaps there was a precipitous death of rhymed verse in English around the 1980s -- after centuries of achievement. As Tim Steele aptly said somewhere, Departments of English turned towards free verse and critics followed. As a result versification skills waned. At the same time, the deluge of idiotic rhymed incantations in TV adverts created the impression in peoples' minds that the only place for rhyme (as well as metre, which followed suit) is among that gibberish. "Serious" poets had to be writing verse libre. Well, to blame the instrument for the decadence of its users is as productive as it is to accuse the violin of the inability to articulate jazz. It is able and innocent. It's them who are neither. By contrast, Russian poetry stayed the course (while not eschewing free verse where it is potent and called for artistically). It is especially sad that "modern" translators of Russian poetry take it as given that such translation must be into English free verse... Inventiveness with the language is a lot more required in poetry than it is in prose. Gender modification is only one interesting example. Alex Shafarenko ________________________________________ From: John Dunn [j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK] Sent: 29 July 2010 15:50 Subject: Re: gender in translation There is, I would imagine, a thesis to be written comparing the humorous use of linguistic and paralinguistic devices in English and Russian. It strikes me that in English word-play tends to be an end in itself, and I am not sure whether that is true to the same extent in Russian. As for rhyme, I tend to think that the English-language light verse tradition, including such 19th-century practitioners as Thomas Hood (with his fondness for punning rhymes) and W.S. Gilbert, has a lot to answer for. It is difficult nowadays to use rhyme in English for anything other than humorous effect, which is why I have serious reservations about rhymed translations of Russian poetry. John Dunn. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ieubanks at PUSHKINIANA.ORG Thu Jul 29 17:18:21 2010 From: ieubanks at PUSHKINIANA.ORG (Ivan S. Eubanks) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 13:18:21 -0400 Subject: gender in translation In-Reply-To: <18EF08266D889C41A14D1099C7102CE2AD35581A9B@UH-MAILSTOR.herts.ac.uk> Message-ID: The debate is pretty old, dating at least back to the 17th century, as far as English verse is concerned. For example, John Milton, in his "Introduction" to /Paradise Lost/, condemns rhyme in English poetry: "Rhime being no necessary Adjunct or true Ornament of Poem or good Verse, in longer Works especially, but the Invention of a barbarous Age, to set off wretched matter and lame Meeter; grac't indeed since by the use of some famous modern Poets, carried away by Custom, but much to thir own vexation, hindrance, and constraint to express many things otherwise, and for the most part worse then else they would have exprest them." I'm not saying I agree with Milton, just that the pendulum has been swinging for centuries. Ivan S. Eubanks /Pushkin Review / ?????????? ???????/ On 7/29/2010 1:01 PM, Shafarenko, Alex wrote: > I wonder when the "nowadays" in John's message below started. It certainly was not difficult for Betjeman and Larkin to write serious rhymed poetry, and they are > not 19th century light verse practitioners, to say nothing of Frost and Auden, so perhaps there was a precipitous death of rhymed verse in English around the 1980s -- > after centuries of achievement. As Tim Steele aptly said somewhere, Departments of English turned towards free verse and critics followed. As a result versification skills > waned. At the same time, the deluge of idiotic rhymed incantations in TV adverts created the impression in peoples' minds that the only place for rhyme (as well as metre, > which followed suit) is among that gibberish. "Serious" poets had to be writing verse libre. Well, to blame the instrument for the decadence of its users is as productive > as it is to accuse the violin of the inability to articulate jazz. It is able and innocent. It's them who are neither. > > By contrast, Russian poetry stayed the course (while not eschewing free verse where it is potent and called for artistically). It is especially sad that "modern" translators of > Russian poetry take it as given that such translation must be into English free verse... > > Inventiveness with the language is a lot more required in poetry than it is in prose. Gender modification is only one interesting example. > > Alex Shafarenko > ________________________________________ > From: John Dunn [j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK] > Sent: 29 July 2010 15:50 > Subject: Re: gender in translation > > There is, I would imagine, a thesis to be written comparing the humorous use of linguistic and paralinguistic devices in English and Russian. It strikes me that in English word-play tends to be an end in itself, and I am not sure whether that is true to the same extent in Russian. > > As for rhyme, I tend to think that the English-language light verse tradition, including such 19th-century practitioners as Thomas Hood (with his fondness for punning rhymes) and W.S. Gilbert, has a lot to answer for. It is difficult nowadays to use rhyme in English for anything other than humorous effect, which is why I have serious reservations about rhymed translations of Russian poetry. > > John Dunn. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From russell-valentino at UIOWA.EDU Thu Jul 29 17:59:56 2010 From: russell-valentino at UIOWA.EDU (Valentino, Russell) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 12:59:56 -0500 Subject: gender in translation In-Reply-To: <4C51B7DD.9040407@pushkiniana.org> Message-ID: Tolerance for rhyme in contemporary English poetry is not the same as tolerance for rhyme in translations into English, especially of non-contemporary works, "classics," etc. Of the thousand or so unsolicited poetry submissions The Iowa Review gets each year, few employ regular rhyme, though I can't agree with Alex that versification skills have declined -- that depends on who's teaching and who's learning and who's publishing, same as ever. That break in sensibility and artistic aims was probably just a little earlier than the 1980s and likely had something to do with the wave of experiment and innovation in 60s and 70s poetry circles (Beat, language poets, etc.). Which reminds me: does anyone on the list know of homophonic translations into Russian or any other Slavic languages? I'm thinking of the sort that Louis Zukovsky or Charles Bernstein have done into English. Russell Valentino -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Ivan S. Eubanks Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 12:18 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] gender in translation The debate is pretty old, dating at least back to the 17th century, as far as English verse is concerned. For example, John Milton, in his "Introduction" to /Paradise Lost/, condemns rhyme in English poetry: "Rhime being no necessary Adjunct or true Ornament of Poem or good Verse, in longer Works especially, but the Invention of a barbarous Age, to set off wretched matter and lame Meeter; grac't indeed since by the use of some famous modern Poets, carried away by Custom, but much to thir own vexation, hindrance, and constraint to express many things otherwise, and for the most part worse then else they would have exprest them." I'm not saying I agree with Milton, just that the pendulum has been swinging for centuries. Ivan S. Eubanks /Pushkin Review / ?????????? ???????/ On 7/29/2010 1:01 PM, Shafarenko, Alex wrote: > I wonder when the "nowadays" in John's message below started. It certainly was not difficult for Betjeman and Larkin to write serious rhymed poetry, and they are > not 19th century light verse practitioners, to say nothing of Frost and Auden, so perhaps there was a precipitous death of rhymed verse in English around the 1980s -- > after centuries of achievement. As Tim Steele aptly said somewhere, Departments of English turned towards free verse and critics followed. As a result versification skills > waned. At the same time, the deluge of idiotic rhymed incantations in TV adverts created the impression in peoples' minds that the only place for rhyme (as well as metre, > which followed suit) is among that gibberish. "Serious" poets had to be writing verse libre. Well, to blame the instrument for the decadence of its users is as productive > as it is to accuse the violin of the inability to articulate jazz. It is able and innocent. It's them who are neither. > > By contrast, Russian poetry stayed the course (while not eschewing free verse where it is potent and called for artistically). It is especially sad that "modern" translators of > Russian poetry take it as given that such translation must be into English free verse... > > Inventiveness with the language is a lot more required in poetry than it is in prose. Gender modification is only one interesting example. > > Alex Shafarenko > ________________________________________ > From: John Dunn [j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK] > Sent: 29 July 2010 15:50 > Subject: Re: gender in translation > > There is, I would imagine, a thesis to be written comparing the humorous use of linguistic and paralinguistic devices in English and Russian. It strikes me that in English word-play tends to be an end in itself, and I am not sure whether that is true to the same extent in Russian. > > As for rhyme, I tend to think that the English-language light verse tradition, including such 19th-century practitioners as Thomas Hood (with his fondness for punning rhymes) and W.S. Gilbert, has a lot to answer for. It is difficult nowadays to use rhyme in English for anything other than humorous effect, which is why I have serious reservations about rhymed translations of Russian poetry. > > John Dunn. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Thu Jul 29 18:17:47 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 14:17:47 -0400 Subject: gender in translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Valentino, Russell wrote: > Tolerance for rhyme in contemporary English poetry is not the same as > tolerance for rhyme in translations into English, especially of > non-contemporary works, "classics," etc. Of the thousand or so > unsolicited poetry submissions The Iowa Review gets each year, few > employ regular rhyme, though I can't agree with Alex that > versification skills have declined -- that depends on who's teaching > and who's learning and who's publishing, same as ever. > ... I don't claim to be an expert on the subject of poetry, but my impression is that the question is not one of tolerance vs. intolerance, but of the impression created by rhyming. Rhyming in English tends to be associated with less-serious poems -- limericks, ditties, and such -- so a modern poet who chooses to rhyme risks having his work taken less seriously. To those who hasten to remind me of Shakespeare, I say I'm aware that these things change over the years as the language and the field evolve. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From russell-valentino at UIOWA.EDU Thu Jul 29 19:42:07 2010 From: russell-valentino at UIOWA.EDU (Valentino, Russell) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 14:42:07 -0500 Subject: gender in translation In-Reply-To: <4C51C5CB.1090909@pbg-translations.com> Message-ID: I think it's kind of like that, yes, at least for very short poems with very strict meter -- they will sound humorous. But rhyming also makes certain kinds of stylization possible, gestures, and virtuoso moments that some contemporary English-language poets make splendid use of. Right, not a good word, tolerance. I'm sure there's a better one. Russell -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Paul B. Gallagher Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 1:18 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] gender in translation I don't claim to be an expert on the subject of poetry, but my impression is that the question is not one of tolerance vs. intolerance, but of the impression created by rhyming. Rhyming in English tends to be associated with less-serious poems -- limericks, ditties, and such -- so a modern poet who chooses to rhyme risks having his work taken less seriously. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jrosengrant at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 29 19:47:43 2010 From: jrosengrant at EARTHLINK.NET (Judson Rosengrant) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 12:47:43 -0700 Subject: When =?windows-1251?Q?=CF=F3=F8=EA=E8=EDComes_?= to Shove In-Reply-To: <18EF08266D889C41A14D1099C7102CE2AD35581A9B@UH-MAILSTOR.herts.ac.uk> Message-ID: About retaining the rhyme and meter in verse translation: it can be done in English and has been done by modern poets, just as modern poets in both Britain and America have continued to avail themselves of the resource (for that's what it is), whatever the academic currency about what may or may not be acceptable practice. While vers libre may have its even dominant place, rumors of its universal triumph are greatly exaggerated. In any case, rhyme is rhyme and a fairly straightforward thing, although there may certainly be degrees of quality that depend on its originality, subtlety, and resonance or dissonance (the interplay of meaning within the poem's larger structure), but meter is another thing entirely, being merely the formal underpinning of the much more important values of rhythm and intonation. A nice case in point is the following well-known lyric, where Pushkin readily departs from the iambic paradigm when he needs to for semantic and tonal emphasis (and of course to avoid the rude sing-song monotony of the ditty), by exploiting the less obvious qualities of length and bolstering that with alliteration and assonance: e.g., 'то робостью, то ревностью томим', where there are only three clear stresses in the pentameter line but the other elements hold it firmly together. Я вас любил: любовь еще, быть может, В душе моей угасла не совсем; Но пусть она вас больше не тревожит; Я не хочу печалить вас ничем. Я вас любил безмолвно, безнадежно, То робостью, то ревностью томим; Я вас любил так искренно, так нежно, Как дай вам бог любимой быть другим. An English version with an equivalent rhyme scheme and metrical structure might read: I loved you, and it may be that love's ember Still smolders in my heart to flame again; Yet that love is nothing you need remember, For I've no wish at all to cause you pain. I loved you with words unspoken, hopelessly, By diffidence, then jealousy oppressed; I loved you so sincerely, so tenderly-- May God grant you another's love as blessed. I myself very rarely translate verse, not because I can't or don't know how, but because I sense, as others do, something intellectually dishonest about it. And of course it's almost always conspicuously inferior to the original, even when the translator is as gifted as, say, a Marshak. More often than not, you get a technically brilliant version of гладкопись (Marshak's rendering of Shakespeare's sonnets) that may have little of the original's distinctive qualities. But readers suppose, nonetheless, that they're actually reading whatever poet has been translated. They're not, and that's the dishonesty of it. Hence, perhaps, the proliferation of unrhymed versions that may sometimes read like подстрочники (or worse: Nabokov's Onegin), but that at least accurately represent the so-called 'cognitive' level of the poem (as my rhymed version does not and simply cannot) and, if they are sensitively and skillfully done, its essential intonation and voice, as well. For many people, that vers libre procedure will be less a matter of fashion or of the perceived influence of popular culture on the imagined reader's ear, as one of ethics, of allegiance to the intricate integrity of the original work. So we'll call such rhymed English versions not translations but adaptations or imitations (Dryden's excellent category and term) and regard them, at least in the present case, as а form of etude or exercise for the pleasure (or irritation) of people like ourselves with the two languages more or less at our command. . . Judson Rosengrant PO Box 551 Portland, OR 97207 503.880.9521 mobile jrosengrant at earthlink.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From russell-valentino at UIOWA.EDU Thu Jul 29 20:27:44 2010 From: russell-valentino at UIOWA.EDU (Valentino, Russell) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 15:27:44 -0500 Subject: gender in translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: These are all excellent examples. At a reading a couple of years ago, Mimi Khalvati had the whole room singing rhymed couplets with her. No one was laughing. Russell -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Robert Chandler Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 10:11 AM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] gender in translation Dear John and all, > It is difficult nowadays to use rhyme in English for anything other than > humorous effect, which is why I have serious reservations about rhymed > translations of Russian poetry. This is completely untrue. There are many deeply serious poems still being written in rhyme. Have a look at the work of Mimi Khalvati or Richard Wilbur. Or, going back only a few years, Larkin and Anthony Hecht. The problem with rhymed translations is simply that most of the time we are not skilled enough. Stanley Mitchell, however, rhymes fluently and wittily throughout the whole of his recent translation of ONEGIN. Best Wishes, Robert ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From caron.4 at BUCKEYEMAIL.OSU.EDU Thu Jul 29 20:55:06 2010 From: caron.4 at BUCKEYEMAIL.OSU.EDU (Inna Caron) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 20:55:06 +0000 Subject: When =?koi8-r?Q?=F0=D5=DB=CB=C9=CEComes_?= to Shove In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >So we'll call such rhymed English versions not translations but adaptations >or imitations and regard them, at >least in the present case, as а form of etude or exercise for the pleasure >(or irritation) of people like ourselves with the two languages more or less >at our command. . . I couldn't disagree more. To me, the mark of a good translation is that the original is clearly recognizable, and yet it stands as a poem in its own right, leaving the reader haunted by a line or an image, which is hopefully (though not always) most representative of the translated poet's intention. I believe that the greatest problem for some of the contemporary translators is that metered and rhymed poetry is not their preferred form when it comes to their own writing. When they try to do with a translation what they don't normally do with their original poetry the result appears a bit forced and lacks the fluidity. In any event, I find nothing intellectually or otherwise dishonest about one's desire to avail the undergraduate students and general readers with no knowledge of Russian, Japanese or Persian, of the benefits of reading and/or studying haiku, rubaiyat, or the Golden Age poetry, both the content and the form. Inna Caron ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] on behalf of Judson Rosengrant [jrosengrant at EARTHLINK.NET] Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 3:47 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] When Пушкин Comes to Shove About retaining the rhyme and meter in verse translation: it can be done in English and has been done by modern poets, just as modern poets in both Britain and America have continued to avail themselves of the resource (for that's what it is), whatever the academic currency about what may or may not be acceptable practice. While vers libre may have its even dominant place, rumors of its universal triumph are greatly exaggerated. In any case, rhyme is rhyme and a fairly straightforward thing, although there may certainly be degrees of quality that depend on its originality, subtlety, and resonance or dissonance (the interplay of meaning within the poem's larger structure), but meter is another thing entirely, being merely the formal underpinning of the much more important values of rhythm and intonation. A nice case in point is the following well-known lyric, where Pushkin readily departs from the iambic paradigm when he needs to for semantic and tonal emphasis (and of course to avoid the rude sing-song monotony of the ditty), by exploiting the less obvious qualities of length and bolstering that with alliteration and assonance: e.g., 'то робостью, то ревностью томим', where there are only three clear stresses in the pentameter line but the other elements hold it firmly together. Я вас любил: любовь еще, быть может, В душе моей угасла не совсем; Но пусть она вас больше не тревожит; Я не хочу печалить вас ничем. Я вас любил безмолвно, безнадежно, То робостью, то ревностью томим; Я вас любил так искренно, так нежно, Как дай вам бог любимой быть другим. An English version with an equivalent rhyme scheme and metrical structure might read: I loved you, and it may be that love's ember Still smolders in my heart to flame again; Yet that love is nothing you need remember, For I've no wish at all to cause you pain. I loved you with words unspoken, hopelessly, By diffidence, then jealousy oppressed; I loved you so sincerely, so tenderly-- May God grant you another's love as blessed. I myself very rarely translate verse, not because I can't or don't know how, but because I sense, as others do, something intellectually dishonest about it. And of course it's almost always conspicuously inferior to the original, even when the translator is as gifted as, say, a Marshak. More often than not, you get a technically brilliant version of гладкопись (Marshak's rendering of Shakespeare's sonnets) that may have little of the original's distinctive qualities. But readers suppose, nonetheless, that they're actually reading whatever poet has been translated. They're not, and that's the dishonesty of it. Hence, perhaps, the proliferation of unrhymed versions that may sometimes read like подстрочники (or worse: Nabokov's Onegin), but that at least accurately represent the so-called 'cognitive' level of the poem (as my rhymed version does not and simply cannot) and, if they are sensitively and skillfully done, its essential intonation and voice, as well. For many people, that vers libre procedure will be less a matter of fashion or of the perceived influence of popular culture on the imagined reader's ear, as one of ethics, of allegiance to the intricate integrity of the original work. So we'll call such rhymed English versions not translations but adaptations or imitations (Dryden's excellent category and term) and regard them, at least in the present case, as а form of etude or exercise for the pleasure (or irritation) of people like ourselves with the two languages more or less at our command. . . Judson Rosengrant PO Box 551 Portland, OR 97207 503.880.9521 mobile jrosengrant at earthlink.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jrosengrant at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 29 21:38:37 2010 From: jrosengrant at EARTHLINK.NET (Judson Rosengrant) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 14:38:37 -0700 Subject: When =?windows-1251?Q?=CF=F3=F8=EA=E8=EDComes_?= to Shove In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In response to Inna Caron: you miss the point. The dishonestly lies in pretending that the rhymed verse translation is a translation in the same sense that a rendering of literary prose is a translation: that the offered text represents in some full sense the meaning of the original. The rhymed verse translation rarely does any such thing--as you yourself unconsciously acknowledged when you said, "leaving the reader haunted by a line or an image, which is hopefully [!] (though not always [!]) most representative [?] of the translated poet's intention [?!]." My point isn't that the pretended translation can't be a good poem in its own right (it can), but that that's what it is--another poem, and not what it seems to claim to be, the thought and art of someone else. Marshak's versions of the sonnets may be good poems in Russian, but they are not Shakespeare, and anyone who relies on them will have an inadequate sense of the originals, to say the least. As Jakobson said, poetry is by definition untranslatable. That is a sad fact, perhaps, but inescapable. One can make versions of Pushkin like mine (I gave you an example) or even much better than mine, but they will still not be true translations. They will be adaptations or, to use Dryden's term again as a way of reminding you that this is a discussion that English-speaking people have been having for over three hundred years, imitations. Imitations can be good poems but they can't pretend to 'represent' the original's 'intention', whatever that may mean. They are simply something else, skillful or not as the case may be, but quite definitely something else. The rest is obfuscation or mendacity or inflating one's own self-indulgent creative escapades with the name and authority of a genuine master and all to common. Judson Rosengrant, PhD PO Box 551 Portland, OR 97207 503.880.9521 mobile jrosengrant at earthlink.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From gfowler at INDIANA.EDU Thu Jul 29 21:39:36 2010 From: gfowler at INDIANA.EDU (gfowler at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 17:39:36 -0400 Subject: Job opportunity - Indiana University (Russian lit) Message-ID: FALL 2011 Open-rank position in Russian Literature The Department of Slavic Languages and Literatures at Indiana University, Bloomington, announces an open-rank faculty position in Russian literature, starting fall semester 2011. Although area(s) of specialization are open, the successful candidate should have a strong background and interest in literary theory, native or near-native English and Russian, an attractive research agenda, and an established publication record; administrative experience is also a plus. We are seeking an enthusiastic teacher and scholar to teach at both the undergraduate and graduate levels, to supervise graduate students specializing in Russian literature, to contribute to the growth of a strong Russian literature program, and to promote the field in the wider university context. Standard teaching load is two courses per semester. Current plans are to interview candidates at the 2010 ASEEES conference in Los Angeles, after which a short list of candidates will be invited to the Bloomington campus for visits. Send curriculum vitae, letter of interest, and three letters of recommendation to: Search Committee, Department of Slavic Languages and Literatures, Indiana University, BH 502, Bloomington, IN 47405-7103. Applications can also be submitted electronically, to: iuslavic at indiana.edu, subject line: Russian-literature position. Preference given to applications submitted by November 1, 2010, but applications will be considered until the position is filled. Indiana University is an Equal Opportunity-Affirmative Action Employer; Indiana University encourages applications from women and minorities. Committee: Steven Franks, ex officio Justyna Beinek, committee chair George Fowler Eyal Peretz (Comparative Literature) Sara Stefani ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From gfowler at INDIANA.EDU Thu Jul 29 21:41:00 2010 From: gfowler at INDIANA.EDU (gfowler at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 17:41:00 -0400 Subject: Job opportunity - Indiana University (Czech) Message-ID: FALL 2011 Visiting lecturer position Czech language and culture The Department of Slavic Languages and Literatures at Indiana University, Bloomington, announces an opening for a two-year visiting lecturer in Czech language, culture and/or literature, starting in the fall semester 2011. The successful candidate should have native or near-native Czech, ability to teach Czech literature, culture, and/or film in English, teaching experience, and knowledge of best practices in foreign language pedagogy. Ph.D. or ABD in a field related to the teaching of Czech language and familiarity with the American university system is required. Standard course load is three courses per semester. Send curriculum vitae, letter of interest, and three letters of recommendation to: Search Committee, Department of Slavic Languages and Literatures, Indiana University, BH 502, Bloomington, IN 47405-7103. Applications can also be submitted electronically to: iuslavic at indiana.edu, subject line: Czech. Applications should be submitted by November 1, 2010, but will be considered until the position has been filled. Current plans are to conduct initial interviews at ASEEES and/or AATSEEL in Los Angeles, after which we hope to invite a short list of candidates to Bloomington for on-campus interviews. Indiana University is an Equal Opportunity-Affirmative Action Employer; Indiana University encourages applications from women and minorities. Committee: Steven Franks, ex officio Ronald Feldstein, committee chair Jeffrey Holdeman Maria Shardakova Miriam Shrager ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From colkitto at ROGERS.COM Thu Jul 29 21:13:11 2010 From: colkitto at ROGERS.COM (Robert Orr) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 17:13:11 -0400 Subject: gender in translation Message-ID: And, as I read the translation of the Last Battle that started all this, I have to commend Olga Bukhina on Тархистанец, Тархистан, for Calormen, and making Tash feminine. Marvellous! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From caron.4 at BUCKEYEMAIL.OSU.EDU Fri Jul 30 01:06:53 2010 From: caron.4 at BUCKEYEMAIL.OSU.EDU (Inna Caron) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 01:06:53 +0000 Subject: When =?koi8-r?Q?=F0=D5=DB=CB=C9=CEComes_?= to Shove In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It seems to me that you are single-handedly dismissing well over three hundred years of poetry translation practice, by many, many talented poets, into many different languages. Not to mention a great many scholarly works on the history of translation (not "pretend translation"). However, as it often happens, it all comes down to a difference in personal philosophies. Unless this particular segment of the discussion is of interest to other SEELANGS readers, I invite you to continue it off-list, if so desired. Sincerely, Inna Caron ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] on behalf of Judson Rosengrant [jrosengrant at EARTHLINK.NET] Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 5:38 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] When Пушкин Comes to Shove In response to Inna Caron: you miss the point. The dishonestly lies in pretending that the rhymed verse translation is a translation in the same sense that a rendering of literary prose is a translation: that the offered text represents in some full sense the meaning of the original. The rhymed verse translation rarely does any such thing--as you yourself unconsciously acknowledged when you said, "leaving the reader haunted by a line or an image, which is hopefully [!] (though not always [!]) most representative [?] of the translated poet's intention [?!]." My point isn't that the pretended translation can't be a good poem in its own right (it can), but that that's what it is--another poem, and not what it seems to claim to be, the thought and art of someone else. Marshak's versions of the sonnets may be good poems in Russian, but they are not Shakespeare, and anyone who relies on them will have an inadequate sense of the originals, to say the least. As Jakobson said, poetry is by definition untranslatable. That is a sad fact, perhaps, but inescapable. One can make versions of Pushkin like mine (I gave you an example) or even much better than mine, but they will still not be true translations. They will be adaptations or, to use Dryden's term again as a way of reminding you that this is a discussion that English-speaking people have been having for over three hundred years, imitations. Imitations can be good poems but they can't pretend to 'represent' the original's 'intention', whatever that may mean. They are simply something else, skillful or not as the case may be, but quite definitely something else. The rest is obfuscation or mendacity or inflating one's own self-indulgent creative escapades with the name and authority of a genuine master and all to common. Judson Rosengrant, PhD PO Box 551 Portland, OR 97207 503.880.9521 mobile jrosengrant at earthlink.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jrosengrant at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 30 01:59:54 2010 From: jrosengrant at EARTHLINK.NET (Judson Rosengrant) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 18:59:54 -0700 Subject: When =?windows-1251?Q?=CF=F3=F8=EA=E8=EDComes_?= to Shove In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sure, Inna, let's continue off-list, since the matter has many dimensions. But let me say before we do that I'm not 'dismissing' anything but rather attempting to define accurately what verse translation is and can be as a matter of its ontology. I want to acknowledge that it is not translation in the same same sense and with the same criteria of accuracy as generally obtains with prose. Would you accept a version of Dostoevsky that merely 'left the reader haunted by a line or an image, which was hopefully, though not always, most representative' of his intention? I don't think you would, and to me that practical awareness of a difference is not especially odd or controversial. But, on the other hand, the consequences of failing to keep the difference between verse and prose translation firmly in mind and before the user can be destructive. It can mislead innocent readers and generally cheapen the quality of our representation and understanding of foreign literatures and cultures, the very things we are duty bound to serve as scholars and translators, as essential intermediaries. There has been much discussion of these issues in English and of course in other languages over the centuries, and that is as it should be, since the issues are important and there are no easy answers to any of them. Jud Judson Rosengrant, PhD PO Box 551 Portland, OR 97207 503.880.9521 mobile jrosengrant at earthlink.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bowrudder at GMAIL.COM Fri Jul 30 02:53:35 2010 From: bowrudder at GMAIL.COM (Charles Mills) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 19:53:35 -0700 Subject: When =?UTF-8?Q?=D0=9F=D1=83=D1=88=D0=BA=D0=B8=D0=BDComes_?= to Shove In-Reply-To: Message-ID: SEELANGS shall be the poorer for it if you take it off list. I for one was finding it an interesting conversation. C. Mills On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 6:59 PM, Judson Rosengrant < jrosengrant at earthlink.net> wrote: > Sure, Inna, let's continue off-list, since the matter has many dimensions. > But let me say before we do that I'm not 'dismissing' anything but rather > attempting to define accurately what verse translation is and can be as a > matter of its ontology. > > I want to acknowledge that it is not translation in the same same sense and > with the same criteria of accuracy as generally obtains with prose. Would > you accept a version of Dostoevsky that merely 'left the reader haunted by > a > line or an image, which was hopefully, though not always, most > representative' of his intention? I don't think you would, and to me that > practical awareness of a difference is not especially odd or controversial. > But, on the other hand, the consequences of failing to keep the difference > between verse and prose translation firmly in mind and before the user can > be destructive. It can mislead innocent readers and generally cheapen the > quality of our representation and understanding of foreign literatures and > cultures, the very things we are duty bound to serve as scholars and > translators, as essential intermediaries. > > There has been much discussion of these issues in English and of course in > other languages over the centuries, and that is as it should be, since the > issues are important and there are no easy answers to any of them. > > Jud > > > Judson Rosengrant, PhD > PO Box 551 > Portland, OR 97207 > > 503.880.9521 mobile > jrosengrant at earthlink.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dpbrowne at MAC.COM Fri Jul 30 03:59:51 2010 From: dpbrowne at MAC.COM (Devin Browne) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 23:59:51 -0400 Subject: Russian newscaster flips off someone on air Message-ID: I assume some of you have seen this. I don't think it's been posted on SEELANGS yet, but I'll apologize in advance if it has. :-) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/27/russian-news-anchor-flips_n_661221.html Devin ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Fri Jul 30 11:43:25 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:43:25 +0100 Subject: When =?UTF-8?Q?=D0=9F=D1=83=D1=88=D0=BA=D0=B8=D0=BDComes_?= to Shove In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On translation and rhyme... What is the general opinion of Pasternak's translations of Hamlet, Romeo and Juliet, etc? Stephanie ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From A.Shafarenko at HERTS.AC.UK Fri Jul 30 13:55:11 2010 From: A.Shafarenko at HERTS.AC.UK (Alex Shafarenko) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 14:55:11 +0100 Subject: When =?utf-8?Q?=D0=9F=D1=83=D1=88=D0=BA=D0=B8=D0=BDComes_?= to Shove Message-ID: All that was said below and in the previous post by Judson may look completely unimpeachable but it is not. It is in fact a fallacy based on a few common misconceptions. > In response to Inna Caron: you miss the point. The dishonestly lies in > pretending that the rhymed verse translation is a translation in the same > sense that a rendering of literary prose is a translation: that the offered > text represents in some full sense the meaning of the original. I don't know who pretends that a poetry translation is the same as a rendering of literary prose, but certainly no good translator would do, and only a very naive reader could expect it. Indeed one has to be completely unfamiliar with the very nature of poetry to have this extraordinary view. Nor is all prose translatable in the forensic sense. The target language has a different cultural context, different cadence of speech, stylistic palette -- hardly anything is the same!.. Translating Isaac Babel's muscular Russian prose (which is condensed to the extreme, full of stylistic colour, trops, as well as controlled pace and rhythm) by just rendering "the meaning of the original"?! I bet in translating "Odessa stories" the exact meaning would have to be modified somewhat (by finding an apt English analogue of a Russian idiom, a paraphrase that better conveys the original stylistic twist, etc.). A prose translation can even be "better" than the original. Some bilinguals find Right-Kovaleva's translation of Vonnegut more convincing than its English source, and I for one personally prefer to read Tolstoy in English as I am too sensitive to the grandmaster's sloppiness with the Russian tongue. > The rhymed > verse translation rarely does any such thing--as you yourself unconsciously > acknowledged when you said, "leaving the reader haunted by a line or an > image, which is hopefully [!] (though not always [!]) most representative > [?] of the translated poet's intention [?!]." Did Pushkin write his famous 8-liner merely to tell the reader that he had loved someone, still loved her but did not want to disturb her peace; that he had loved her hopelessly and without uttering a word, very sincerely and very tenderly but now wished her to be thus loved by another? If so, that in itself is an excellent translation. It does convey all the information, does it not? Why then does it leave people cold, Anglophones and English-speaking Russophones alike? What does it tell the monolingual reader? Perhaps that Pushkin was no poet, only a jaded lover. That, in my view, is a much bigger fraud. The original lines have touched generations of Russian readers, but a prose translation kills off the original art. I frankly prefer Judson's own attempt at a form-preserving rendering, at least I can recognise some Pushkin in it, more than I can do in (the pinnacle of literalism!) Nabokov's well known stillborn version with all its terrible imitative anastrophes, a version which Arndt characterised as “sad ritual murder performed for the purposes of an ever more insatiable lexical necrophilia”. > My point isn't that the pretended translation can't be a good poem in its > own right (it can), but that that's what it is--another poem, and not what > it seems to claim to be, the thought and art of someone else. OK, you think by translating word-for-word, you are making sure that, in the words of Nabokov, "the most exact information possible" will not mislead the reader. But it will! The poet chose words to appear in rhymed positions for a reason: think, for example, of "томим/другим" and all the implications thereof. There is a scaffold of sorts embedded in the poem in order to maintain the form. It is clearly marked by the form, and any reader of the original gets the full package. The reader of the literal translation is mislead into believing that all the words in the poem are equally significant. This totally misrepresents the impact. Quoting Arndt again, literal translation is "a message in garbled prose, with subsequent assurances by way of stylistic and other commentary that the corpse in its lifetime was poetry." If I am allowed to use an analogy, it is as if a pianist performing Chopin decided to do away with the timing of the notes. After all, that timing cannot be played precisely but the pitch can. So let's play the pitches and forget the rhythm. The most exact information possible without a doubt. The only trouble is: it's not Chopin -- not by a long shot. > Marshak's > versions of the sonnets may be good poems in Russian, but they are not > Shakespeare, and anyone who relies on them will have an inadequate > sense of the originals, to say the least. That's the best they can hope for today. Poetry translation is not an act, it is a journey. In the fullness of time better results will appear. Of course the debate about poetry translation is not new, yet it is not very old in the Russian-to-English domain either, and, more importantly, it is still ongoing. The position of "congruent translation", which I personally support, was presented and extensively argued for by Dr Slava Muchnick in the introduction of the anthology "Salt Crystals on an Axe" published by Ancient Purple Translations last year. It is well worth the read. Alex ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From caron.4 at BUCKEYEMAIL.OSU.EDU Fri Jul 30 14:26:32 2010 From: caron.4 at BUCKEYEMAIL.OSU.EDU (Inna Caron) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 14:26:32 +0000 Subject: When =?koi8-r?Q?=F0=D5=DB=CB=C9=CEComes_?= to Shove In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't mind continuing on-list, as long as it remains amicable. In five or six years that I have been a SEELANGS reader and contributor, I have seen my fair share of discussions that led to escalating hostility and general unpleasantness. If the present segment starts steering toward that, I'd rather spare others the indignity. I don't think it will, though, so here's my response. Jud, I am all too aware of the ongoing argument about the nature and validity of poetic translation. In fact, my reluctance to get too involved in online discussion is owed to the fact that I've submitted my thoughts on the subject elsewhere, publication pending. Incidentally, Jakobson, whom you quote, in the same essay suggests that while a poem cannot be translated in the strict sense of the word, it can, nevertheless, be recreated in another language. As for whether such translations are legitimate, it truly depends on an individual philosophy, and I respect your point of view as I hope you will respect mine. The two points you've made with which I cannot agree are 1) that poetic translations are of no true value to anyone but the translator himself, and 2) that the said translator is driven by deluded sense of self-importance further fed by attaching own whimsical exercises to a well-known literary figure. On the former point, I believe that, to quote Charles Mills, we would be so much poorer had we not had access to poetry in any language we do not speak. Say what you will, but I, for one, am grateful to the translators of Petrarch's sonnets, Khayyam's rubai, and samurai death poetry, for leaving me struck by the beauty of imagery, keenness of wisdom, and the sheer musicality of the form. On the latter point, I contend that translators are driven by no such thing. Instead, their desire to translate a poem comes from a combination of fascination with the original and frustration with the inability to share it with others. It is not enough for me to convey to the students Pushkin's intellectual agenda and the historical reality behind his writing. I want them to be mesmerized by the music of his verse. To answer your question about Dostoevsky, yes, I would opt for the functional equivalence, that is, for the profound and lingering affect on the reader's emotional, psychological and intellectual state, as I believe that is what Dostoevsky himself would prefer. I believe he was humble enough to let go of some of his precise wording for the sake of overall impact on a reader in another language, culture, and time. But that again is just one person's philosophy, and not by any means a universal truth. Regards to the list :) Inna Caron ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] on behalf of Charles Mills [bowrudder at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 10:53 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] When Пушкин Comes to Shove SEELANGS shall be the poorer for it if you take it off list. I for one was finding it an interesting conversation. C. Mills On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 6:59 PM, Judson Rosengrant < jrosengrant at earthlink.net> wrote: > Sure, Inna, let's continue off-list, since the matter has many dimensions. > But let me say before we do that I'm not 'dismissing' anything but rather > attempting to define accurately what verse translation is and can be as a > matter of its ontology. > > I want to acknowledge that it is not translation in the same same sense and > with the same criteria of accuracy as generally obtains with prose. Would > you accept a version of Dostoevsky that merely 'left the reader haunted by > a > line or an image, which was hopefully, though not always, most > representative' of his intention? I don't think you would, and to me that > practical awareness of a difference is not especially odd or controversial. > But, on the other hand, the consequences of failing to keep the difference > between verse and prose translation firmly in mind and before the user can > be destructive. It can mislead innocent readers and generally cheapen the > quality of our representation and understanding of foreign literatures and > cultures, the very things we are duty bound to serve as scholars and > translators, as essential intermediaries. > > There has been much discussion of these issues in English and of course in > other languages over the centuries, and that is as it should be, since the > issues are important and there are no easy answers to any of them. > > Jud > > > Judson Rosengrant, PhD > PO Box 551 > Portland, OR 97207 > > 503.880.9521 mobile > jrosengrant at earthlink.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From russell-valentino at UIOWA.EDU Fri Jul 30 16:29:51 2010 From: russell-valentino at UIOWA.EDU (Valentino, Russell) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 11:29:51 -0500 Subject: When =?koi8-r?Q?=F0=D5=DB=CB=C9=CEComes_?= to Shove In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Inna and colleagues, Glad you're willing to work through some of these issues more on list. Judson wrote: "As Jakobson said, poetry is by definition untranslatable. That is a sad fact, perhaps, but inescapable. One can make versions of Pushkin like mine (I gave you an example) or even much better than mine, but they will still not be true translations." This seems to me to assume a narrow conveyance model for translation. Jacobson's definition is only inescapable if one assumes that the aim of all translation is transfer of the whole, not, for instance, inspiration, or invention, or persuasion, or literary practice (i.e., the practice of literature), or therapy, or the development of language skills, reading skills, aesthetic range, or any of the many other things that translation actually does in practice. It assumes a very narrow speech situation, pretty much just one -- Modernist and, I think, rather elitist. We attempt to carry a cup filled to the absolute brim with tea, one pinky protruding, across a sea of obstacles, getting elbowed and jostled along the way. I'm sure others have encountered metaphors like this. Of course you can't do that without spilling anything: therefore impossible. According to this way of thinking, all the 3rd-graders translating poems in the Bay Area's Poetry Inside Out Program (for instance) ! are failures; in fact, they've been set up to fail from the start by an assumption about what a full, true translation might be. But neither poetry nor translation is that one thing that J's axiom qua definition suggests. I would say the same about artistic prose. I love the idea, suggested by Alex, that translation might trade in forensic sense, both for its connection to law (every translation is an argument for itself) and for its associations with investigation and what happens to bodies when they're dead (known in some circles as "rendering"). I'll be sure to credit you, Alex. Russell ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From elena.ostrovskaya at GMAIL.COM Fri Jul 30 17:31:51 2010 From: elena.ostrovskaya at GMAIL.COM (Elena Ostrovskaya) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 21:31:51 +0400 Subject: Russian proverbs - near English equivalents? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't think it makes a big difference since not so many Russians are likely to know the proverb anyway. Elena Ostrovskaya 2010/7/27 Stephanie Briggs > Re the banya - are we talking of proverbs that were in use before Soviet > Russia? I wouldn't expect many Soviet proverbs to refer to God. > > Stephanie > > ***************************** > ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs > http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ > > Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! > FIRST SALE: 11/13/09! > http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ > > Got Your Spoon? Find out what they're all about (and find out a little > about > me too!) > http://www.butyoudontlooksick.com/the_spoon_theory/ > > > On 25 July 2010 21:51, Melissa Smith wrote: > > > Banya proverb -- Cleanliness is next to Godliness? > > > > Melissa Smith > > > > On 7/22/10 6:40 AM, anne marie devlin wrote: > > > Possibly the nearest equivalent for the first is 'love conquers all'; > > athough there is no mention of 'advice'. > > > > > > > Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 12:52:14 +0400 > > > > From: elena.ostrovskaya at GMAIL.COM > > > > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian proverbs - near English equivalents? > > > > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > > > > > > > Dear Zita, > > > > I am afraid I don't get what you / they mean by 'near equivalents'. > > > > Corresponding English proverbs? I'd be really surprised if there > > were one > > > > about banya. Or translation? Could you please clarify? > > > > Anyway, if you follow this link > > > > http://masterrussian.com/proverbs/russian_proverbs_3.htm > > > > > > > > you'll find equivalents and literal translation to your 1st and 4rth > > > > proverbs. > > > > For the 2nd, > > > > I'd say something like: The beauty of a home is hospitality, not > > decoration > > > > Literally: The beauty of a house is its pies, not its corners. > > > > > > > > All that keeping in mind that 'krasny ugol' is not a red corner, or > > even a > > > > beautiful corner, since 'krasny' here means 'good', or 'beautiful', > > but a > > > > place of worship where the ikons are > > > > > > > > > > http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Красный_угол > < > http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%BB > > > > < > > > http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%BB > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > Thus the same thing can be understood in the religious line. > > > > > > > > 3. The day you go to banya, you don't get older that day. > > > > > > > > Hope that helps. > > > > Elena Ostrovskaya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You'll > > find the > > > > equivalen and translation to your 1st and 3rd sayings. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 7:17 AM, Zita Dabars wrote: > > > > > > > > > Thank you for your comments. > > > > > > > > > > I failed to say that the transliterated version (for which I was > > not > > > > > sufficiently accurate) will never appear in the "Answer Key to Mir > > > > > russkikh." The > > > > > transliteration was used only in the case that the Cyrillic did > > not appear > > > > > in the mailing which I sent to SEELANGS. > > > > > > > > > > Zita Dabars > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > - > > > > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > > subscription > > > > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface > > at: > > > > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > - > > > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > > subscription > > > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > - > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. > > > https://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969 > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > - > > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > - > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Melissa T. Smith, Professor > > Department of Foreign Languages and > > Literatures > > Youngstown State University > > Youngstown, OH 44555 > > Tel: (330)941-3462 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From AnemoneA at NEWSCHOOL.EDU Fri Jul 30 18:28:06 2010 From: AnemoneA at NEWSCHOOL.EDU (Tony Anemone) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 14:28:06 -0400 Subject: Tolstoy in America? Message-ID: A colleague has asked me for help in finding information on the existence and activities of tolstoyans and tolstoyan groups in America at the turn of the 19-20 centuries. I know they existed but am hoping that the Tolstoy specialists on the list will be able to help with specific sources in English since she doesn't read Russian. Thanks, as always, Tony * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Anthony Anemone Associate Professor of Foreign Languages and Literary Studies Associate Dean for Faculty Affairs 72 Fifth Avenue, Rm 501 The New School University NY, NY 10011 212-229-5400, ex 1413 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jrosengrant at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 30 19:47:44 2010 From: jrosengrant at EARTHLINK.NET (Judson Rosengrant) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:47:44 -0700 Subject: When =?windows-1251?Q?=CF=F3=F8=EA=E8=EDComes_?= to Shove In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Judging by the tenor of the responses so far, I seem to be arguing as a sort of slightly presumptuous newcomer or outsider, third-person singular, on the one side, with all right-thinking colleagues amiably gathered on the other. But that's fine, since I feel strongly about the points I've been attempting to make and believe them to be based on serious thought about the issues (some of it published, by the way: my examination in SEEJ of Nabokov's theory and practice of translation with respect to Onegin, or the discussion of historical lexis in the preface to my edition of Lydia Ginzburg's On Psychological Prose), just as they derive from fairly extensive experience as a translator of a very wide variety of nineteenth- and twentieth-century Russian literary prose (from Olesha's notebooks to my forthcoming new edition for Penguin of the Tolstoy trilogy). Be that as it may, I've found the responses to my remarks to be interesting, if not always entirely cogent or convincing, at least as I regard the issues and their implications, and I'll try to answer them all in detail over the weekend when I'll have the leisure to do so with the care they deserve. Best wishes, Jud Judson Rosengrant, PhD PO Box 551 Portland, OR 97207 503.880.9521 mobile jrosengrant at earthlink.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From beyer at MIDDLEBURY.EDU Fri Jul 30 20:50:50 2010 From: beyer at MIDDLEBURY.EDU (Beyer, Tom) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 16:50:50 -0400 Subject: Tolstoy in America? In-Reply-To: <3E8F9BDD-D2AB-40CB-B38F-D8A5F3536257@newschool.edu> Message-ID: I have to think you could begin with the Tolstoi Foundation. http://www.tolstoyfoundation.org/ On 7/30/10 8:28 PM, "Tony Anemone" wrote: > A colleague has asked me for help in finding information on the existence and > activities of tolstoyans and tolstoyan groups in America at the turn of the > 19-20 centuries. I know they existed but am hoping that the Tolstoy > specialists on the list will be able to help with specific sources in English > since she doesn't read Russian. > > Thanks, as always, > > Tony > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > * * * > Anthony Anemone > Associate Professor of Foreign Languages and Literary Studies > Associate Dean for Faculty Affairs > 72 Fifth Avenue, Rm 501 > The New School University > NY, NY 10011 > > 212-229-5400, ex 1413 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From caron.4 at BUCKEYEMAIL.OSU.EDU Fri Jul 30 21:48:08 2010 From: caron.4 at BUCKEYEMAIL.OSU.EDU (Inna Caron) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 21:48:08 +0000 Subject: When =?koi8-r?Q?=F0=D5=DB=CB=C9=CEComes_?= to Shove In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jud, I am sure no one wants you to feel ostracized and ganged up on. It seems that when you enter the discussion with a statement such as "I, too, could do X if I chose to, but I choose not to for the following reasons," it is a perfectly welcome self-introduction. It's when those reasons boil down to the assertion that those who do choose to do X are self-indulgent frauds, liable for doing disservice to the classics and misleading the reader, you can't be surprised that some will find your statement as judgmental as it appears misinformed. Inna ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] on behalf of Judson Rosengrant [jrosengrant at EARTHLINK.NET] Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 3:47 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] When Пушкин Comes to Shove Judging by the tenor of the responses so far, I seem to be arguing as a sort of slightly presumptuous newcomer or outsider, third-person singular, on the one side, with all right-thinking colleagues amiably gathered on the other. But that's fine, since I feel strongly about the points I've been attempting to make and believe them to be based on serious thought about the issues (some of it published, by the way: my examination in SEEJ of Nabokov's theory and practice of translation with respect to Onegin, or the discussion of historical lexis in the preface to my edition of Lydia Ginzburg's On Psychological Prose), just as they derive from fairly extensive experience as a translator of a very wide variety of nineteenth- and twentieth-century Russian literary prose (from Olesha's notebooks to my forthcoming new edition for Penguin of the Tolstoy trilogy). Be that as it may, I've found the responses to my remarks to be interesting, if not always entirely cogent or convincing, at least as I regard the issues and their implications, and I'll try to answer them all in detail over the weekend when I'll have the leisure to do so with the care they deserve. Best wishes, Jud Judson Rosengrant, PhD PO Box 551 Portland, OR 97207 503.880.9521 mobile jrosengrant at earthlink.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jrosengrant at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 30 22:11:21 2010 From: jrosengrant at EARTHLINK.NET (Judson Rosengrant) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 15:11:21 -0700 Subject: When =?windows-1251?Q?=CF=F3=F8=EA=E8=EDComes_?= to Shove In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As I said, I'll respond this weekend to the substantive remarks that have been made in response to my own comments, since I think the issues are important and a vigorous discussion of them may have value. But I'd rather not reply, other than this once, to the sort of personal remarks that were just made, with their crude characterization of my arguments. If that's going to be the approach, then perhaps it will indeed be better left off-list or simply not pursued at all. JR ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Fri Jul 30 22:16:59 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 18:16:59 -0400 Subject: When =?KOI8-R?Q?=F0=D5=DB=CB=C9=CEComes_?= to Shove In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Inna Caron wrote: > Jud, I am sure no one wants you to feel ostracized and ganged up on. > > It seems that when you enter the discussion with a statement such as > "I, too, could do X if I chose to, but I choose not to for the > following reasons," it is a perfectly welcome self-introduction. It's > when those reasons boil down to the assertion that those who do > choose to do X are self-indulgent frauds, liable for doing disservice > to the classics and misleading the reader, you can't be surprised > that some will find your statement as judgmental as it appears > misinformed. Returning to the subject, it seems to me that a central issue in the difference between translating poetry and translating prose is that prose is primarily (though not entirely) about the content, whereas poetry is primarily (though not entirely) about the form. So an artist who wishes to render a foreign poem must somehow convey the beauty of the form with an entirely different tool set (palette, if you will). The result, if s/he is successful, is an entirely different beauty from the original beauty. At best, such an author can claim to be "inspired by" the original, and should give credit where credit is due, but he can't really claim to be "translating" it. Imagine if Metallica produced a work titled "Variations on a theme by Mozart." No matter how inspired they were, this is not Mozart. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Sat Jul 31 05:09:18 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 06:09:18 +0100 Subject: When =?windows-1251?Q?=CF=F3=F8=EA=E8=EDComes_?= to Shove In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Judson, Inna and all, In regard to the moral probity of translators, here are the last paragraphs of an article I once wrote about translating The Captain's Daughter. The full text has been published by the excellent journal Cardinal Points: http://www.stosvet.net/12/chandler/ There is one last thread to hold up to the light. As an epigraph to this essay I chose a sentence quoted in the complete Oxford English Dictionary as an example of the use of the word 'turncoated'. This scornful view of translations, this feeling that they are 'turncoated things at best', has persisted over the centuries ­ and not only in the English-speaking world. [...] My hunch is that this hostility towards translators and their work arises not from the entirely justified view that most translations are imperfect but from a suspicion of translators per se. Translators are, by definition, at least relatively at home in two or more cultures and their loyalty to any single culture is therefore questionable. It is interesting that Pushkin, apparently somewhat irrelevantly, tells us that Pyotr Grinyov is himself something of a translator. Not only does he, as a child, teach Beaupré to speak Russian; not only does he mediate between the world of the aristocracy and that of the Cossacks and peasants; he even, while serving in a remote steppe fortress, studies French and ­ most surprisingly of all ­ does regular translation exercises. Translators are always vulnerable to criticism. If they do not make full use of their creative imagination, they will betray not only themselves but also the life and spirit of the original. If they do let their imaginations play, they are likely to be accused of presumption. Fidelity, however, is never simply a mechanical matter; to be faithful to a person, a belief, a cause or a work of literature, we must do more than simply obey a set of rules. There will always be times when we need to think more deeply, to ask ourselves questions about what it is we want to be faithful to and why. The best I can do by way of being faithful to Pushkin's P-L-T logogram is to use the word 'turncoat' at two significant moments. Like Pyotr Grinyov, we may sometimes need to be tricksters; perhaps, rather than worrying about being called turncoats, we should simply try to be more accomplished tricksters. Vsego dobrogo, Robert > As I said, I'll respond this weekend to the substantive remarks that have > been made in response to my own comments, since I think the issues are > important and a vigorous discussion of them may have value. > > But I'd rather not reply, other than this once, to the sort of personal > remarks that were just made, with their crude characterization of my > arguments. > > If that's going to be the approach, then perhaps it will indeed be better > left off-list or simply not pursued at all. > > JR > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From a.shafarenko at HERTS.AC.UK Sat Jul 31 15:08:20 2010 From: a.shafarenko at HERTS.AC.UK (Alex Shafarenko) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 16:08:20 +0100 Subject: When =?utf-8?Q?=D0=9F=D1=83=D1=88=D0=BA=D0=B8=D0=BDComes_?= to Shove Message-ID: Just a little extra point to what I have already said. One should ask oneself who the judge of translated poetry should be. There is a tacit acceptance of the fact that it is always the target-language audience. At first glance that is how it should be, since it is their language after all; they are supposed to know what is beautiful in it and what is not. But in reality beauty comes from the original, and the target language is only the prism through which the original is supposed to shine. I believe that makes it important that a good translation is seen as such by bilinguals. "Ambidextrous" bilinguals were exceedingly rare in the old days of the Iron Curtain (the emigrée community did not on the whole have a strong interest in Anglo-Saxon culture, despite some notable exceptions), while nowadays I think there is a small army of Russians who grew up in an English-speaking country, many of them having a strong interest in their ancestral culture and fluency in its language. There is also a large number of cultured Russian speakers who speak excellent English and are well-versed in English poetry, both classical and modern. My point is, I have struggled to find a single bilingual of this kind who would approve of forensic translations of Akhmatova, Tsvetayeva, Mandelstam, Paternak, Brodsky, etc. Raised eyebrows and a polite smile is all you get. They hate inept/loose conformal translations even more, true, as they feel that those misrepresent the original. Give them a good one, like Wilbur's masterful rendering of Brodsky's "Six Years Later" and watch them touched, amazed, elated and asking tons of questions (the first one would be "where can I buy a book of this kind of translations for my Anglophone friend, partner, kids, etc..."). Nobody complains about getting inexact information content. Nobody says it is only an imitation (the original poet, who had the habit of scrutinising all translations of his work into English, did neither -- surprise!). The proof of the pudding is in the eating. People who can read the originals, who love the originals and feel protective of them also love some of my translations. Whatever a purist might think about possibility/impossibility, I hope I may be forgiven if I say these people know better. Usually their criteria are "do I hear the voice of the original poet? does the poem send shivers down my spine?", not just "do I recognise the poem and not feel offended by the translator's liberties". Needless to say that I strongly agree with Inna and look forward to her forthcoming paper on the subject when it is published. Alex ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Sat Jul 31 16:54:16 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 17:54:16 +0100 Subject: When =?UTF-8?Q?=D0=9F=D1=83=D1=88=D0=BA=D0=B8=D0=BDComes_?= to Shove In-Reply-To: <8B7FD636-98CB-42E7-9DD0-24C71609AF76@herts.ac.uk> Message-ID: In the book "Ice Bound" by Dr Jerri Nielsen, a doctor serving at the South Pole Station who diagnosed and treated her own breast cancer, she talks about a poetry recital the group had weekly. A Ukrainian-Canadian scientist recited Pushkin in Russian. He started trying to translate it, but gave up and said, "Just listen to the sound." And the impression she got is the same one I have of Pushkin - he makes Russian language sound like music. Isn't that the goal of poetry, no matter what the language? Stephanie ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! SECOND SALE: 28/07/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ Got Your Spoon? Find out what they're all about (and find out a little about me too!) http://www.butyoudontlooksick.com/the_spoon_theory/ On 31 July 2010 16:08, Alex Shafarenko wrote: > Just a little extra point to what I have already said. One should ask > oneself who the judge of translated poetry should be. > There is a tacit acceptance of the fact that it is always the > target-language audience. At first glance that is how > it should be, since it is their language after all; they are supposed to > know what is beautiful in it and what is not. > But in reality beauty comes from the original, and the target language is > only the prism through which the original > is supposed to shine. I believe that makes it important that a good > translation is seen as such by bilinguals. > > "Ambidextrous" bilinguals were exceedingly rare in the old days of the Iron > Curtain (the emigrée community did not > on the whole have a strong interest in Anglo-Saxon culture, despite some > notable exceptions), while nowadays > I think there is a small army of Russians who grew up in an > English-speaking country, many of them having > a strong interest in their ancestral culture and fluency in its language. > There is also a large number > of cultured Russian speakers who speak excellent English and are > well-versed in English poetry, both classical > and modern. > > My point is, I have struggled to find a single bilingual of this kind who > would approve of forensic translations > of Akhmatova, Tsvetayeva, Mandelstam, Paternak, Brodsky, etc. Raised > eyebrows and a polite smile is all you get. > They hate inept/loose conformal translations even more, true, as they feel > that those misrepresent the original. Give > them a good one, like Wilbur's masterful rendering of Brodsky's "Six Years > Later" and watch them touched, amazed, > elated and asking tons of questions (the first one would be "where can I > buy a book of this kind of translations > for my Anglophone friend, partner, kids, etc..."). Nobody complains about > getting inexact information content. Nobody > says it is only an imitation (the original poet, who had the habit of > scrutinising all translations of his work into > English, did neither -- surprise!). > > The proof of the pudding is in the eating. People who can read the > originals, who love the originals and feel protective > of them also love some of my translations. Whatever a purist might think > about possibility/impossibility, > I hope I may be forgiven if I say these people know better. Usually their > criteria are "do I hear the voice of > the original poet? does the poem send shivers down my spine?", not just "do > I recognise the poem and not feel > offended by the translator's liberties". > > Needless to say that I strongly agree with Inna and look forward to her > forthcoming paper > on the subject when it is published. > > Alex > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU Sat Jul 31 18:13:40 2010 From: hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU (Hugh McLean) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 11:13:40 -0700 Subject: Tolstoy in America? In-Reply-To: <3E8F9BDD-D2AB-40CB-B38F-D8A5F3536257@newschool.edu> Message-ID: Tony, The person to ask about that is Robert Whitaker of Lehman College, CCNY. He's right there in NY with you. Warm regards, Hugh > A colleague has asked me for help in finding information on the existence and activities of tolstoyans and tolstoyan groups in America at the turn of the 19-20 centuries. I know they existed but am hoping that the Tolstoy specialists on the list will be able to help with specific sources in English since she doesn't read Russian. > > Thanks, as always, > > Tony > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > Anthony Anemone > Associate Professor of Foreign Languages and Literary Studies > Associate Dean for Faculty Affairs > 72 Fifth Avenue, Rm 501 > The New School University > NY, NY 10011 > > 212-229-5400, ex 1413 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From edseelangs at GMAIL.COM Sat Jul 31 18:24:41 2010 From: edseelangs at GMAIL.COM (Edward Dumanis) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 14:24:41 -0400 Subject: Teffi - Sobaka -Erunda In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 'Nothing much!' would clearly contradict to the sentence that follows it. So, it was not that the amount was insignificant, but rather that it was a cinch for him to do that. Edward Dumanis 2010/7/25 Robert Chandler : > And a second question. > > The narrator has just grasped that Harry has been cheating her in regard to > money. > > И вдруг я поняла: это он съездил к тетке и представился как мой муж, а > старая дура отдала ему мои деньги! > -- Сколько она дала вам? -- спокойно спросила я. > -- Тысяч около тридцати. Ерунда! Я не хотел, чтобы мы растратили их по > мелочам, и вложил их в это автомобильное дело. > > Does Harry's 'Erunda!' mean 'Nothing much!' (i.e. That 30,000 roubles is > only a small sum of money)? Or could it mean that his having deceived her > is nothing serious, since he was doing it for a supposedldy sensible reason? > > R. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From afol at UAA.ALASKA.EDU Sat Jul 31 18:25:23 2010 From: afol at UAA.ALASKA.EDU (Olga Livshin) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 10:25:23 -0800 Subject: Two weeks to deadline -- AATSEEL Special Poetry Events Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Submissions are invited for the 2011 annual AATSEEL (American Association of Teachers of Slavic and East European Languages) Russian poetry events. The AATSEEL national conference will take place on January 6-9, 2011, in Pasadena, California. To stimulate conversation between poets, the academic community and other attendees, events will include several poetry readings, followed by discussion that will be led by a commentator. Past panels have included themes such as "Russian Poets in America," "Poets of Several Cultures" and "Contemporary Poetry and the Visual Arts." There is limited space in the schedule, but the selection committee would like to showcase a variety of authors. Poets who would like to read their work are invited to submit three representative poems to Olga Livshin (University of Alaska Anchorage) at afol at uaa.alaska.edu **by August 15, 2010.** Please feel free to distribute this announcement as you see fit. All the best, Olga Livshin ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From edseelangs at GMAIL.COM Sat Jul 31 18:31:51 2010 From: edseelangs at GMAIL.COM (Edward Dumanis) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 14:31:51 -0400 Subject: Teffi - 'Sobaka' - 'Vot tak Garri!' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am sorry to disagree with many of those who responded. The irony is not obvious at all. It could be possible but it would not follow just from the quoted excerpt. Leaving it alone, it would sound rather as admiration than irony. Edward Dumanis 2010/7/25 Robert Chandler : > Dear all, > > The narrator in this story is talking about a long-ago incident in her life, > around 1919, when she was infatuated with a vile man called Harry. It will > eventually emerge that he has been working for the Cheka. > > But in these lines she is talking about a time before she learned this. > > Я была тронута Гарриной добротой. > -- Гарри, разве вам не было бы страшно прятать у себя белого офицера? Он > чуть-чуть покраснел. > -- Пустяки! -- пробормотал он. -- Если встретите его снова, непременно -- > слышите? -- непременно позовите к себе. > Вот так Гарри! Способен на подвиг. Даже больше того -- ищет подвига. > > Am I correct in hearing the whole of the last line as ironical in tone, i.e. > imbued with an irony that springs from what she eventually learned about > him? Something like: > > Harry was a fine fellow. Capable of heroism. Even going out of his way to > display heroism. > > Vsego dobrogo, > > Robert > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Elena_Baraban at UMANITOBA.CA Sat Jul 31 19:23:52 2010 From: Elena_Baraban at UMANITOBA.CA (/Elena Baraban/) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 14:23:52 -0500 Subject: leitenantskaia proza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Colleagues, Could someone tell me who first used the term "leitenantskaia proza"? Would be also good to know the year when the term was first used. Thank you, Elena -- Elena Baraban, Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Russian Room 325, Fletcher Argue Bldg. German and Slavic Studies University of Manitoba Winnipeg, MB Canada R3T 2N2 Tel.: (204)474-9735 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From nafpaktitism at VIRGINIA.EDU Sat Jul 31 22:11:53 2010 From: nafpaktitism at VIRGINIA.EDU (Margarita Nafpaktitis) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 18:11:53 -0400 Subject: "akusherka" as insult? Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, In his diaries from the late teens to the early 1920s, when Kornei Chukovskii is particularly frustrated by female bureaucrats in the Petrograd cultural administration, he calls them "akusherki." I've looked up the term in several dictionaries, and the most I can find is "midwife" ("zhenshchina so srednim meditsinskim obrazovaniem, imeiushchaia pravo samostoiatel'no okazyvat' pomoshch' pri rodakh"). If anyone can explain why Chukovskii cast the term as an aspersion, I'd be grateful for the enlightenment. With thanks in advance, Margarita <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Margarita Nafpaktitis Assistant Professor of Slavic Languages & Literatures University of Virginia 109 New Cabell Hall / PO Box 400783 Charlottesville, Virginia 22904-4783 Tel: (434) 924-3548 FAX: (434) 982-2744 http://artsandsciences.virginia.edu/slavic/people/mn2t.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------