From thodge at WELLESLEY.EDU Wed Sep 1 01:18:51 2010 From: thodge at WELLESLEY.EDU (Thomas Hodge) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 20:18:51 -0500 Subject: Stressed Russian vowels in Word 2007? Message-ID: Dear SEELANGers, I use Word 2007 on a PC with Windows 7. Does anyone have a simple way of adding -- with that software setup -- stress-marks to Russian vowels? Word does this easily for characters that look identical in Russian and English (a, e, o, y), but when it comes to э [e], ы [y], я [ia], и [i] and ю [iu], Word can't add stress-marks. We used to have a rather clumsy macro work-around that passably solved this problem in Word 2003, but I'm looking for something elegant and reliable that works in Office 2007. Thanks in advance for any suggestions! Tom thodge at wellesley.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dolack_thomas at WHEATONCOLLEGE.EDU Wed Sep 1 01:59:02 2010 From: dolack_thomas at WHEATONCOLLEGE.EDU (Tom Dolack) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 21:59:02 -0400 Subject: Stressed Russian vowels in Word 2007? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Tom: Hope this does the trick: Go to the Insert Menu > Symbol > More Symbols > Choose "Combining Diacritical Marks" from the subset menu > Pick the acute accent (or whichever you so desire) and you're done! I also suggest setting up a shortcut key, I use ctrl-` . Tom _____ Tom Dolack Wheaton College Thomas Hodge wrote: > Dear SEELANGers, > I use Word 2007 on a PC with Windows 7. Does anyone have a simple way > of adding -- with that software setup -- stress-marks to Russian vowels? > Word does this easily for characters that look identical in Russian and English > (a, e, o, y), but when it comes to э [e], ы [y], я [ia], и [i] and ю [iu], Word > can't add stress-marks. We used to have a rather clumsy macro work-around > that passably solved this problem in Word 2003, but I'm looking for something > elegant and reliable that works in Office 2007. Thanks in advance for any > suggestions! > Tom > > thodge at wellesley.edu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From thodge at WELLESLEY.EDU Wed Sep 1 02:08:33 2010 From: thodge at WELLESLEY.EDU (Thomas Hodge) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 21:08:33 -0500 Subject: Stressed Russian vowels in Word 2007? Message-ID: Dear Tom, Thanks! That worked like a charm. Beautiful, and oh so simple. All best, Tom ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From af38 at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed Sep 1 02:12:56 2010 From: af38 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Anna Frajlich-Zajac) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 22:12:56 -0400 Subject: Steven P. Hill memorial service In-Reply-To: <20100831153525.CIT28337@expms1.cites.uiuc.edu> Message-ID: Please accept my condolences. All he best, Anna _______________________________ Anna Frajlich-Zajac, Ph.D. Senior Lecturer Department of Slavic Languages Columbia University 704 Hamilton Hall, MC 2840 1130 Amsterdam Avenue New York, NY 10027 Tel. 212-854-4850 Fax: 212-854-5009 http://www.annafrajlich.com/ On Aug 31, 2010, at 4:35 PM, gladney at ILLINOIS.EDU wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > On Friday, September 10 the University of Illinois Department of > Slavic Languages and Literatures is holding a memorial service for > Steven P. Hill, who died in June. > > Colleagues and past students who have testimonies or reminiscences > they wish to share with those in attendance are invited to send > them to me prior to that date. > > Frank Y. Gladney > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface > at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU Wed Sep 1 05:13:15 2010 From: mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU (Melissa Smith) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 01:13:15 -0400 Subject: class size Message-ID: Pat: Some classes lend themselves better than others to combining students of various levels. The materials in Olga Kagan's "Cinema for Russian conversation," with its presentation of assignments divided according to Proficiency levels, works especially well for this. I also taught a course several years ago entitled "Russians Discover America," with variously assigned readings, including Sergei Dovlatov's "Inostranka," which exists in a glossed edition. I also found material in the textbook "V puti" well suited to be included in a variety of "content-based" courses. David Birnbaum of Pitt did a presentation at MidWest Slavic on this type of approach in their popular course on folklore and fairytales. I'd be interested in hearing more about other creative solutions in low-enrollment courses. No compromise solution is ideal, of course. I try to make sure any student with a strong interest attend a summer intensive program elsewhere, and try to tailor my offerings to dovetail with their specific interests in a major or minor outside of the language department. The internet offers a wealth of articles in Russian on any topic you can name, so I try to help the individual students develop specific vocabulary by exposure to topics that afford a broad range of cognates. Some of my students have expressed an interest in Russian pop music, and both the lyrics and videos are often available on YouTube. The singers all have websites, too, that can be used as reading projects. One student did a project on "TaTu." Another student had Russian satellite TV and had taken an interest in the Show "Zhdi menya." He was planning a trip to Belarus, and we used the Simonov poem in class. The poem is quite accessible, and I had the three students in one second year memorize one verse apiece. The student traveled over break and returned to report that the Belorusans he met went absolutely crazy when this otherwise weak student recited the opening lines! Best wishes, Melissa On 8/31/10 12:18 PM, Krafcik, Patricia wrote: > Melissa, Rich, and Ashot-- > I just sent a message to my colleague Rob referring to this discussion--so interesting > and so relevant to a subject which is hot right now on my campus! Thus, the "holy > mackeral"! It seems difficult for other sections of the college to understand why we > need smaller classes for language study, yet this activity requires such intensive one-on- > one interaction that small is better. We usually begin with a large number, perhaps 45, > which we divide into two sections. There is always attrition, however, and each quarter > finds a diminished number. > > The question we are dealing with now is how to retain Russian-language students. Should > the instructor slow up, play more language games, feed the students more Russian food? > All of these techniques have been shown to hold the students' interest. Or in the case of > Russian, is it simply that some students discover that they cannot handle such a substantially > inflected language? If anyone has any ideas, please share them. We would like to hold as many > students as possible, helping them to get through the difficult moments of Russian-language > study in order to enjoy the wonderful fruits of their work. (We are using the Nachalo text.) > > Pat Krafcik > The Evergreen State College > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list on behalf of Melissa Smith > Sent: Tue 8/31/2010 9:02 AM > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] class size > > At Youngstown State University, an open-enrollment institution, we have > a cap on all Foreign language courses of 25 (4xweek), and haven't maxed > out since the late 1980s. The official YSU policy is minimum of 15. > Since ONE year of FL is the language requirement and therefore the > second term MUST be offered, we are allowed to go MUCH lower on the > second term, and often do. The drop-out rate in the first term varies > greatly. > > I teach the students who go on to second-year and above. This is a > stable(?) population of 2-5 students, so the "workload hours" assigned > to the course can vary from 1-3, depending on enrollment. I have a part > -time instructor at the first-year level, because this is the only > course that can justify the hire, then my workload gets adjusted in > various ways (thank heavens for tenure!). > > Rich is right about the ideal figures. Since at a commuter campus, > despite all efforts, attendance can be very erratic, I find seven > preferable to five, since it's easier to keep up the pace! > > Good luck on your ventures, > > Melissa Smith > > On 8/31/10 8:54 AM, Richard Robin wrote: > > George Washington University: > > Section cap for regular track language (4 hrs/week) : 18 > > In Russian, we usually reach or come close to this cap for all our > sections > > at the beginning of the year, but we also lose about two students per > > section before the end of the semester. > > Cap for intensive track language (8 hrs/week): 15 > > Minimum amount of students required to put a new course on the books: > 10 > > Minimum amount of students to offer a course already on the books: 7 > > (although pleading with the dean can save a course). > > > > IMHO: Ideal number of students to start in a Russian language section > in > > Intensive: 13-14. Every intensive class has three-four weak students. > If > > they drop, I'm left with an ideal class of 10 - easy enough to work > with, > > but enough to keep the dean at bay. > > > > Actually, the ideal number of students is 5 - 6 as in Russia. But > let's be > > realistic. > > > > -Rich Robin > > > > On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 10:23 PM, Vardanyan, Ashot < > > ashot-vardanyan at uiowa.edu> wrote: > > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > > > I am interested in information on the size of a foreign language > class > > > within a college / university format. Any piece would be valued, > such as > > > official recommendations and regulations at various colleges, your > opinion > > > on the (most) optimal number of students, your and your colleagues' > > > experience, etc. > > > > > > Thank you, Ashot Vardanyan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription > > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface > at: > > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Richard M. Robin > > Director Russian Language Program > > The George Washington University > > Washington, DC 20052 > > 202-994-7081 > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > > ------------------------------------ > > Melissa T. Smith, Professor > Department of Foreign Languages and > Literatures > Youngstown State University > Youngstown, OH 44555 > Tel: (330)941-3462 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------ Melissa T. Smith, Professor Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures Youngstown State University Youngstown, OH 44555 Tel: (330)941-3462 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Wed Sep 1 08:54:30 2010 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 09:54:30 +0100 Subject: PDF editing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A belated offering. The current version of WordPerfect (X4) has a built-in facility to open PDF and scanned files. You just open them like any other file and edit them, or save them as .doc files if you prefer working in MSWord. You can then save them again as PDFs if you wish. I haven't used this for any serious work but have checked successfully with a few samples. I don't know if all PDFs and scans will work - PDFs vary. Will ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rrobin at GWU.EDU Wed Sep 1 12:57:59 2010 From: rrobin at GWU.EDU (Richard Robin) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 08:57:59 -0400 Subject: Stressed Russian vowels in Word 2007? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For all sorts of accent marks possibilities in Windows (written for Vista, but works in 7) see http://www.gwu.edu/~slavic/gw-cyrillic/cyrilize.htm#stressmarks. Rich Robin On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 10:08 PM, Thomas Hodge wrote: > Dear Tom, > Thanks! That worked like a charm. Beautiful, and oh so simple. All > best, > Tom > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Richard M. Robin Director Russian Language Program The George Washington University Washington, DC 20052 202-994-7081 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK Wed Sep 1 13:32:48 2010 From: Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK (Simon Beattie) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 14:32:48 +0100 Subject: Alexander's Column Message-ID: Dear SEELANGers, I'd like to know if there's any truth in Alexander I constructing a column out of the French cannons left by Napoleon around Moscow in 1812. Does anyone remember reading about this anywhere? Any leads most gratefully received. Simon Simon Beattie Antiquarian books and music 84 The Broadway | Chesham | Buckinghamshire | HP5 1EG | UK tel. +44 (0)1494 784954 | mobile/voicemail +44 (0)7717 707575 | e-mail simon at simonbeattie.co.uk VAT no. GB 983 5355 83 Join me on Facebook . ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rifkin at TCNJ.EDU Wed Sep 1 13:40:38 2010 From: rifkin at TCNJ.EDU (Benjamin Rifkin) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 09:40:38 -0400 Subject: class size In-Reply-To: <29586447.1283317996014.JavaMail.mtsmith02@ysu.edu> Message-ID: Dear SEELANGers: The American Council on the Teaching of Foreign Languages has a policy statement on class size in the study of world languages. You can find that statement, dated May 2010, on the web at: http://www.actfl.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=4368#maxclass With best wishes to all, Ben Rifkin The College of New Jersey ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Wed Sep 1 13:42:39 2010 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 09:42:39 -0400 Subject: Alexander's Column In-Reply-To: <012701cb49da$2baae7b0$8300b710$@co.uk> Message-ID: Are you talking about the column near Winter Palace? It is made of granite, one piece held in place by its own weight. However, Александровская колонна была окружена декоративной бронзовой оградой, выполненной по проекту Огюста Монферрана. Высота ограды около 1,5 метров. Ограду украшали 136 двуглавых орлов и 12 трофейных пушек (4 по углам и 2 обрамляют двустворчатые ворота с четырёх сторон ограды), которые венчали трёхглавые орлы. (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%B0 ) They are now gone. Sep 1, 2010, в 9:32 AM, Simon Beattie написал(а): > Dear SEELANGers, > > > > I'd like to know if there's any truth in Alexander I constructing a > column > out of the French cannons left by Napoleon around Moscow in 1812. > Does > anyone remember reading about this anywhere? > > > > Any leads most gratefully received. > > > > Simon > > > > > > Simon Beattie > > Antiquarian books and music > > > > 84 The Broadway | Chesham | Buckinghamshire | HP5 1EG | UK > > > > tel. +44 (0)1494 784954 | mobile/voicemail +44 (0)7717 707575 | e- > mail > simon at simonbeattie.co.uk > > > > VAT no. GB 983 5355 83 > > > > Join me on Facebook > > . > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alina Israeli Associate Professor of Russian LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave. Washington DC 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK Wed Sep 1 14:04:23 2010 From: Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK (Simon Beattie) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 15:04:23 +0100 Subject: Alexander's Column In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you, Alina, but no, it's not the one in St Petersburg. This is what's supposed to have looked like (or was intended to have looked like, if it was indeed erected): http://www.glowfoto.com/static_image/01-065809L/3981/jpg/09/2010/img6/glowfo to Simon -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Alina Israeli Sent: 01 September 2010 14:43 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Alexander's Column Are you talking about the column near Winter Palace? It is made of granite, one piece held in place by its own weight. However, Александровская колонна была окружена декоративной бронзовой оградой, выполненной по проекту Огюста Монферрана. Высота ограды около 1,5 метров. Ограду украшали 136 двуглавых орлов и 12 трофейных пушек (4 по углам и 2 обрамляют двустворчатые ворота с четырёх сторон ограды), которые венчали трёхглавые орлы. (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0% B4%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BD% D0%BD%D0%B0 ) They are now gone. Sep 1, 2010, в 9:32 AM, Simon Beattie написал(а): > Dear SEELANGers, > > > > I'd like to know if there's any truth in Alexander I constructing a > column > out of the French cannons left by Napoleon around Moscow in 1812. > Does > anyone remember reading about this anywhere? > > > > Any leads most gratefully received. > > > > Simon > > > > > > Simon Beattie > > Antiquarian books and music > > > > 84 The Broadway | Chesham | Buckinghamshire | HP5 1EG | UK > > > > tel. +44 (0)1494 784954 | mobile/voicemail +44 (0)7717 707575 | e- > mail > simon at simonbeattie.co.uk > > > > VAT no. GB 983 5355 83 > > > > Join me on Facebook > > . > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alina Israeli Associate Professor of Russian LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave. Washington DC 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From marina.teterina at GMAIL.COM Wed Sep 1 14:26:43 2010 From: marina.teterina at GMAIL.COM (Marina Teterina) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 10:26:43 -0400 Subject: Alexander's Column In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -- Sent from my Palm Pixi On Sep 1, 2010 9:44 AM, Alina Israeli <aisrael at american.edu> wrote: Are you talking about the column near Winter Palace? It is made of granite, one piece held in place by its own weight. However, Александровская колонна была окружена декоративной бронзовой оградой, выполненной по проекту Огюста Монферрана. Высота ограды около 1,5 метров. Ограду украшали 136 двуглавых орлов и 12 трофейных пушек (4 по углам и 2 обрамляют двустворчатые ворота с четырёх сторон ограды), которые венчали трёхглавые орлы. (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%B0 ) They are now gone. Sep 1, 2010, в 9:32 AM, Simon Beattie написал(а): > Dear SEELANGers, > > > > I'd like to know if there's any truth in Alexander I constructing a > column > out of the French cannons left by Napoleon around Moscow in 1812. > Does > anyone remember reading about this anywhere? > > > > Any leads most gratefully received. > > > > Simon > > > > > > Simon Beattie > > Antiquarian books and music > > > > 84 The Broadway | Chesham | Buckinghamshire | HP5 1EG | UK > > > > tel. +44 (0)1494 784954 | mobile/voicemail +44 (0)7717 707575 | e- > mail > simon at simonbeattie.co.uk > > > > VAT no. GB 983 5355 83 > > > > Join me on Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=118806184805137 > > > . > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alina Israeli Associate Professor of Russian LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave. Washington DC 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Wed Sep 1 14:58:56 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 10:58:56 -0400 Subject: PDF editing In-Reply-To: <4C7E14C6.1040101@sas.ac.uk> Message-ID: William Ryan wrote: > A belated offering. The current version of WordPerfect (X4) has a > built-in facility to open PDF and scanned files. You just open them > like any other file and edit them, or save them as .doc files if you > prefer working in MSWord. You can then save them again as PDFs if you > wish. I haven't used this for any serious work but have checked > successfully with a few samples. I don't know if all PDFs and scans > will work - PDFs vary. Chances are it depends on how the PDF was constructed. If we're talking about a PDF that was created from an editable file such as a Word file, many applications can select and manipulate the text. But if it's simply a series of page images (as we are here), that's a horse of a different color. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From gladney at ILLINOIS.EDU Wed Sep 1 15:26:54 2010 From: gladney at ILLINOIS.EDU (Frank Gladney) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 10:26:54 -0500 Subject: Steven P. Hill memorial service In-Reply-To: <49F19BE9-EE24-473E-9418-E531B73288A7@columbia.edu> Message-ID: Dear Anna, Thank you for your condolences. I'll see to it that they are conveyed. Frank ---- Original message ---- >Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 22:12:56 -0400 >From: Anna Frajlich-Zajac >Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Steven P. Hill memorial service >To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > >Please accept my condolences. > >All he best, >Anna >_______________________________ >Anna Frajlich-Zajac, Ph.D. >Senior Lecturer >Department of Slavic Languages >Columbia University >704 Hamilton Hall, MC 2840 >1130 Amsterdam Avenue >New York, NY 10027 >Tel. 212-854-4850 >Fax: 212-854-5009 >http://www.annafrajlich.com/ > > > > > >On Aug 31, 2010, at 4:35 PM, gladney at ILLINOIS.EDU wrote: > >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> On Friday, September 10 the University of Illinois Department of >> Slavic Languages and Literatures is holding a memorial service for >> Steven P. Hill, who died in June. >> >> Colleagues and past students who have testimonies or reminiscences >> they wish to share with those in attendance are invited to send >> them to me prior to that date. >> >> Frank Y. Gladney >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your >> subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface >> at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Edythe.Haber at UMB.EDU Wed Sep 1 15:26:34 2010 From: Edythe.Haber at UMB.EDU (Edythe Haber) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 11:26:34 -0400 Subject: Tolstoi and Austen Message-ID: A friend of mine (an English professor) asked me whether there is any evidence that Tolstoi read Jane Austen. I don't know, but if those of you out there who do know could let me know, I'd much appreciate it. Best, Edie Haber ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From timur2000 at JUNO.COM Wed Sep 1 15:44:03 2010 From: timur2000 at JUNO.COM (Tim West) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 10:44:03 -0500 Subject: Alexander's Column Message-ID: Simon, Maybe you�re thinking of the monument to the Turkish war next to Trinity Cathedral in St. Petersburg (constructed from 140 cannon barrels), which was built by Alexander III. It looks a lot like your illustration. The original was destroyed in 1929 and a replica was built in 2004: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Turkish_War_Memorial_column ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK Wed Sep 1 15:59:28 2010 From: Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK (Simon Beattie) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 16:59:28 +0100 Subject: Alexander's Column In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks. It's certainly similar, isn't it? But there's a description with this engraving and it's definitely Alexander I, and definitely French artillery. Simon -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Tim West Sent: 01 September 2010 16:44 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Alexander's Column Simon, Maybe you're thinking of the monument to the Turkish war next to Trinity Cathedral in St. Petersburg (constructed from 140 cannon barrels), which was built by Alexander III. It looks a lot like your illustration. The original was destroyed in 1929 and a replica was built in 2004: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Turkish_War_Memorial_column ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From KrafcikP at EVERGREEN.EDU Wed Sep 1 16:05:28 2010 From: KrafcikP at EVERGREEN.EDU (Krafcik, Patricia) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 09:05:28 -0700 Subject: class size Message-ID: Thank you for this link, Ben. It will be highly useful in our discussions with the administration about language class size. Pat Krafcik The Evergreen State College -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list on behalf of Benjamin Rifkin Sent: Wed 9/1/2010 6:40 AM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] class size Dear SEELANGers: The American Council on the Teaching of Foreign Languages has a policy statement on class size in the study of world languages. You can find that statement, dated May 2010, on the web at: http://www.actfl.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=4368#maxclass With best wishes to all, Ben Rifkin The College of New Jersey ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulr at RUSSIANLIFE.NET Wed Sep 1 17:36:39 2010 From: paulr at RUSSIANLIFE.NET (Paul Richardson) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 13:36:39 -0400 Subject: Fish translated into English Message-ID: Russian Life books today announces the release of its new English translation of Peter Aleshkovsky's Russian Booker shortlisted novel, "Fish: A History of One Migration." This mesmerizing novel from one of Russia’s most important modern authors traces the life journey of a selfless Russian everywoman. Suffering through rape, abuse, dislocation and exile, Vera ("Faith" in Russian) personifies Mother Russia's torment and resilience amid the Soviet disintegration. "We tend to forget that ten years ago, for hundreds of millions of people, the world was falling apart," said Publisher Paul Richardson. "Aleshkovsky’s intense novel recalls that era with honesty and power, but not by dwelling on the sort of big events reported in the media. Instead, Fish focuses on how those events shaped and altered individual lives, how one woman navigated through that very difficult time." Peter Aleshkovsky has written a dozen novels, mainly in the realistic tradition, displaying a mastery of evocative detail and gripping narrative. The male author’s ambitious and rare choice of a first-person, female narrator makes Fish all the more significant as a work of world fiction. "Aleshkovsky’s range in Fish truly reflects the distance his heroine travels and the incredible diversity of people and places she encounters," said translator Nina Shevchuk-Murray. "Every time I turned to the text, it surprised and challenged me in a new way." This is Aleshkovsky's second novel translated into English. His most recent novel, "The Dark Side of the Moon," came out in Russia on the same day as Fish arrived in the U.S. in English. For more information about the book, visit: http://www.russianlife.com/store/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=196 "Fish" is also available on Kindle: http://www.amazon.com/Fish-History-One-Migration-ebook/dp/B0041HXKAU For more information about Peter Aleshkovsky and his work, visit: http://www.peteraleshkovsky.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rifkin at TCNJ.EDU Wed Sep 1 18:05:17 2010 From: rifkin at TCNJ.EDU (Benjamin Rifkin) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 14:05:17 -0400 Subject: class size In-Reply-To: <3171EF0C0146664DA703DE4D8DB912650266A34B@birch.evergreen.edu> Message-ID: Happy to help. Ben On Sep 1, 2010, at 12:05 PM, Krafcik, Patricia wrote: > Thank you for this link, Ben. It will be highly useful in our > discussions > with the administration about language class size. > > Pat Krafcik > The Evergreen State College > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures > list on behalf of Benjamin Rifkin > Sent: Wed 9/1/2010 6:40 AM > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] class size > > Dear SEELANGers: > > The American Council on the Teaching of Foreign Languages has a policy > statement on class size in the study of world languages. You can find > that statement, dated May 2010, on the web at: > > http://www.actfl.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=4368#maxclass > > With best wishes to all, > > Ben Rifkin > The College of New Jersey > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From losinkina at YAHOO.CO.UK Thu Sep 2 08:58:22 2010 From: losinkina at YAHOO.CO.UK (Lyubov Osinkina) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 08:58:22 +0000 Subject: Patrick Waddington (request for his email) Message-ID: Dear colleagues, a friend of mine ( Dr. of Medicine at the university of St. Petersburg) wanted to send his article on ''Bazarov and Karl Bazedov'' to Patrick Waddington (an authority on Turgenev) but he does not know his current address and email. He asked me for help in finding Waddington's whereabouts. If you you do know Waddington's email, please, let us know. Apparently P. Waddington taught in New Zealand and has now retired. Yours, Lyubov Osinkina. lyubov.osinkina at wolfson.ox.ac.uk ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK Thu Sep 2 09:10:01 2010 From: Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK (Alexandra Smith) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 10:10:01 +0100 Subject: Patrick Waddington (request for his email) In-Reply-To: <853224.62642.qm@web26303.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Liubov', Patrick Waddington retired a very long time ago. I'm not sure whether he still participates in any seminars, conferences, etc. He lives in Wellington. You should be able to find his e-mail address through Dr David Wells who compiles newsletters for the Association of Slavic and East European Studies specialists in New Zealand and Australia. His address is: David Wells With best wishes, Alexandra ---------------------------------------- Alexandra Smith (PhD, University of London) Reader in Russian Studies Department of European Languages and Cultures School of Languages, Literatures and Cultures The University of Edinburgh David Hume Tower George Square Edinburgh EH8 9JX UK tel. +44-(0)131-6511381 fax: +44- (0)131 -651 -1482 e-mail: Alexandra.Smith at ed.ac.uk -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From thomasy at WISC.EDU Thu Sep 2 11:46:53 2010 From: thomasy at WISC.EDU (Molly Thomasy Blasing) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 07:46:53 -0400 Subject: Molodets (The Swain) in English? In-Reply-To: <75E002E6-A0F4-4229-B925-9921103ECB28@russianlife.net> Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Can anyone direct me to an English translation of Tsvetaeva's poema Molodets? Thanks in advance for your help! Best, Molly ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From psyling at YMAIL.COM Thu Sep 2 11:45:43 2010 From: psyling at YMAIL.COM (Psy Ling) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 04:45:43 -0700 Subject: Katcap, hohol, etc In-Reply-To: <75E002E6-A0F4-4229-B925-9921103ECB28@russianlife.net> Message-ID: The SEELANG’s community may be interested in the article of my colleague Mihail Gorbanevsky about derogative names for people of different nationalities in modern Russian. As for me I did not realize that “hohol” is not a good name for Ukrainians. Now I know. http://www.rg.ru/2010/09/01/mat.html ВБ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Thu Sep 2 12:11:32 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 13:11:32 +0100 Subject: 501 Russian Verbs Message-ID: Dear SEELANGers, I've had this book for years, and I've found it invaluable. But something's been bugging me. On the cover and spine, the subtitle says "fully conjugated". I was under the impression that Russian verbs are declined, not conjugated, and that declension differs somewhat from conjugation. ie French is conjugated, and Russian is declined (declinated?). Thoughts? Spasibo! Stephanie ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ewb2 at CORNELL.EDU Thu Sep 2 12:15:23 2010 From: ewb2 at CORNELL.EDU (E Wayles Browne) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 08:15:23 -0400 Subject: 501 Russian Verbs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Really and truly, what you do to verbs is conjugate them (put them into different persons and tenses), and what you do to nouns and adjectives is decline them (put them into different cases and, if they're adjectives, into different genders). English verbs have conjugations, French verbs have conjugations, and Russian verbs have conjugations. English nouns have very little in the way of declension (just: child, child's, children, children's), French nouns have nothing whatever in the way of declension, but Russian nouns have declension. So "501 Russian Verbs" is not leading you astray. -- Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics Department of Linguistics Morrill Hall 220, Cornell University Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A. tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h) fax 607-255-2044 (write FOR W. BROWNE) e-mail ewb2 at cornell.edu ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Stephanie Briggs [sdsures at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 8:11 AM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] 501 Russian Verbs Dear SEELANGers, I've had this book for years, and I've found it invaluable. But something's been bugging me. On the cover and spine, the subtitle says "fully conjugated". I was under the impression that Russian verbs are declined, not conjugated, and that declension differs somewhat from conjugation. ie French is conjugated, and Russian is declined (declinated?). Thoughts? Spasibo! Stephanie ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Thu Sep 2 13:17:07 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 14:17:07 +0100 Subject: MOROZKO Message-ID: Dear all, This is from the version of the skazka collected by Karnaukhova: У деда была доцка и у бабы была доцка. Ну, ланно. Вси знают, как за мацехой жить: перевернешься – бита, и не довернешься - бита, и в пору - бита. Can someone help me with перевернешься and довернешься, which I don’t understand at all? All the best, Robert ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From af38 at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Sep 2 13:20:59 2010 From: af38 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Anna Frajlich-Zajac) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 09:20:59 -0400 Subject: 501 Russian Verbs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Verbs are always conjugated and nouns, adjectives and pronouns are declined. Anna _______________________________ Anna Frajlich-Zajac, Ph.D. Senior Lecturer Department of Slavic Languages Columbia University 704 Hamilton Hall, MC 2840 1130 Amsterdam Avenue New York, NY 10027 Tel. 212-854-4850 Fax: 212-854-5009 http://www.annafrajlich.com/ On Sep 2, 2010, at 8:11 AM, Stephanie Briggs wrote: > Dear SEELANGers, > > I've had this book for years, and I've found it invaluable. But > something's > been bugging me. On the cover and spine, the subtitle says "fully > conjugated". I was under the impression that Russian verbs are > declined, not > conjugated, and that declension differs somewhat from conjugation. > ie French > is conjugated, and Russian is declined (declinated?). > > Thoughts? > > Spasibo! > > Stephanie > > ***************************** > ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs > http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ > > Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! > THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! > http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface > at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Thu Sep 2 13:24:38 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 09:24:38 -0400 Subject: MOROZKO In-Reply-To: Message-ID: перевернешься – бита, и не довернешься - бита, и в пору - бита. = you turn all the way around--they don't like it and beat you; you turn just a little [not enough]--they don't like it and beat you; you do it just right -- they still beat you ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Thu Sep 2 14:15:18 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 10:15:18 -0400 Subject: 501 Russian Verbs In-Reply-To: <112DB62B-7902-49E3-97CA-4468986A13F2@columbia.edu> Message-ID: Anna Frajlich-Zajac wrote: > Verbs are always conjugated and nouns, adjectives and pronouns are > declined. The exception being Russian past tenses in -l(a,o,i), which are relic past participles that have lost the conjugated auxiliary verb. Cf. substandard English "I been," "I done," etc. Since the inflection is for number and gender and is governed by the subject, it's reasonable to say these are declined. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK Thu Sep 2 14:16:27 2010 From: Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK (Alexandra Smith) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 15:16:27 +0100 Subject: Molodets (The Swain) in English? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Molly, As far as I know, there is no English translation of Tsvetaeva's "Molodets" available to general readers at this stage. There was an English translation prepared by one British translator -- Alec Brown (he was a friend of Mirsky) in the end of the 1920s: there was a plan in 1929 to publish a French and an English versions of the poem and include Natalia Goncharova's illustrations. You could read about this plan in Tsvetaeva's letters to Gonsharova (esp. in her letter written on 3 March 1929):http://www.nasledie-rus.ru/podshivka/7311.php One of the specialists on Goncharova from Newcastle have managed to find surviving relatives of Alec Brown, in hope to obtain the manuscript but he was told that the translator's archive was burnt in his relatives attic after the WW2. The bilingual edition that includes Tsvetaeva's own translation of the poem into French was published in 2005 in Moscow: Цветаева М.И. Молодец=La Gars / Ил. Н.Гончаровой. - М.: Эллис Лак 2000; Дом-музей Марины Цветаевой, 2005. - 328 с. - На фр. и рус. яз. It contains Efim Etkind's translation of Tsvetaeva's preface to the French edition. Some passages from this book are available here: http://fringilla-pinso.livejournal.com/1319.html Neither French, nor English versions of the poem with Goncharova's illustrations were published in 1929 -- for financial reasons. There is a bilingual edition of the poem that includes Christiane Hauschild's translation of the whole poem into German (plus her Notes): Молодец. Сказка./Molodec. Ein Marchen.-Herausgegeben and ubersetzt von Christiane Hauschild. Wallstein Verlag, 2004. (Sorry I can't reproduce all German letters properly in this e-mail.) Christiane has also published her dissertation on this poem as a book: Christiane Hauschild. Haretische Transgressionen. Das Marchenpoem "Molodec" von Marina Cvetaeva, Wallstein Verlag, 2004. With best wishes, Alexandra -- ------------------------------------ Alexandra Smith (PhD, University of London) Reader in Russian Studies Department of European Languages and Cultures School of Languages, Literatures and Cultures The University of Edinburgh David Hume Tower George Square Edinburgh EH8 9JX UK tel. +44-(0)131-6511381 fax: +44- (0)131 -651 -1482 e-mail: Alexandra.Smith at ed.ac.uk -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From yasicus at RAMBLER.RU Thu Sep 2 14:21:18 2010 From: yasicus at RAMBLER.RU (Iaroslav Pankovskyi) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 18:21:18 +0400 Subject: MOROZKO Message-ID: Good translation, Olga! Another possible suggestion for Robert: перевернешься – бита, и не довернешься - бита, и в пору - бита. ... you turn more, you are beaten; you turn less, you are beaten; you turn just enough, again you are beaten. Best, Iaroslav. * Olga Meerson [Thu, 2 Sep 2010 09:24:38 -0400]: > перевернешься – бита, и не довернешься - бита, и в пору - > бита. > > = > you turn all the way around--they don't like it and beat you; you turn > just a little [not enough]--they don't like it and beat you; you do it > just right -- they still beat you > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ [redirect.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fseelangs.home.comcast.net%2F;href=1] > --------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU Thu Sep 2 14:43:25 2010 From: mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU (Melissa Smith) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 10:43:25 -0400 Subject: 501 Russian Verbs Message-ID: Therefore, verbs must live in a CONJUGAL relationship with a person; nouns, pronouns, and adjectives, DECLINE their generic, lexical meaning in order to live in community within a sentence. Melissa Smith On 9/2/10 9:20 AM, Anna Frajlich-Zajac wrote: > Verbs are always conjugated and nouns, adjectives and pronouns are > declined. > Anna > _______________________________ > Anna Frajlich-Zajac, Ph.D. > Senior Lecturer > Department of Slavic Languages > Columbia University > 704 Hamilton Hall, MC 2840 > 1130 Amsterdam Avenue > New York, NY 10027 > Tel. 212-854-4850 > Fax: 212-854-5009 > http://www.annafrajlich.com/ > > > > > > On Sep 2, 2010, at 8:11 AM, Stephanie Briggs wrote: > > > Dear SEELANGers, > > > > I've had this book for years, and I've found it invaluable. But > > something's > > been bugging me. On the cover and spine, the subtitle says "fully > > conjugated". I was under the impression that Russian verbs are > > declined, not > > conjugated, and that declension differs somewhat from conjugation. > > ie French > > is conjugated, and Russian is declined (declinated?). > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Spasibo! > > > > Stephanie > > > > ***************************** > > ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs > > http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ > > > > Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! > > THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! > > http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > > subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface > > at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --- > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------ Melissa T. Smith, Professor Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures Youngstown State University Youngstown, OH 44555 Tel: (330)941-3462 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From k2kingdom at GMAIL.COM Thu Sep 2 15:09:23 2010 From: k2kingdom at GMAIL.COM (Mark Kingdom) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 18:09:23 +0300 Subject: Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E, W Message-ID: Living here in Sevastopol, I ask my share of directions to places. I don't recall *ever* getting an answer where the speaker used compass directions. It's always, "Go straight, then turn left..." Granted, plenty of Americans use left, right, straight terminology, but plenty *also* use compass directions. "Go east on 7th and then turn north onto Broadway." Is that a cultural thing, you think, or a linguistic one? Just curious! Thanks all for the help! Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Thu Sep 2 15:13:29 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 11:13:29 -0400 Subject: MOROZKO In-Reply-To: <1221740045.1283437278.44180856.34714@mcgi73.rambler.ru> Message-ID: Iaroslav Pankovskyi wrote: > Good translation, Olga! > Another possible suggestion for Robert: > перевернешься – бита, и не довернешься - бита, и в пору - бита. > ... you turn more, you are beaten; you turn less, you are beaten; you > turn just enough, again you are beaten. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From amarilis at BUGBYTES.COM Thu Sep 2 15:27:20 2010 From: amarilis at BUGBYTES.COM (amarilis) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 11:27:20 -0400 Subject: 501 Russian Verbs In-Reply-To: <128185.1283438606010.JavaMail.mtsmith02@ysu.edu> Message-ID: Oh, thank you so much! Much needed levity in the midst of starting verbs with my Russian I class. Amarilis On 9/2/2010 10:43 AM, Melissa Smith wrote: > Therefore, verbs must live in a CONJUGAL relationship with a person; > nouns, pronouns, and adjectives, DECLINE their generic, lexical meaning > in order to live in community within a sentence. > > Melissa Smith > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From amarilis at BUGBYTES.COM Thu Sep 2 15:29:06 2010 From: amarilis at BUGBYTES.COM (amarilis) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 11:29:06 -0400 Subject: Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E, W In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It is definitely a regional thing. I went to high school in New England, where roads are old and windy, so no one thinks to say "go north" or "go south" unless you are on a federal highway. My husband, a Midwesterner, however, as well as my in-laws, always talk in terms of north, south, east and west and are very confused if they cannot figure out which cardinal directions they face. Amarilis On 9/2/2010 11:09 AM, Mark Kingdom wrote: > Living here in Sevastopol, I ask my share of directions to places. > I don't recall *ever* getting an answer where the speaker used > compass directions. It's always, "Go straight, then turn left..." > Granted, plenty of Americans use left, right, straight terminology, > but plenty *also* use compass directions. "Go east on 7th and then > turn north onto Broadway." > > Is that a cultural thing, you think, or a linguistic one? > > Just curious! > > Thanks all for the help! > > Mark > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Thu Sep 2 15:29:26 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 16:29:26 +0100 Subject: 501 Russian Verbs In-Reply-To: <4C7FC258.8010906@bugbytes.com> Message-ID: *laughs* Oh boy, I can see the dirty jokes in Russian I starting now... ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ On 2 September 2010 16:27, amarilis wrote: > Oh, thank you so much! Much needed levity in the midst of starting verbs > with my Russian I class. > Amarilis > > On 9/2/2010 10:43 AM, Melissa Smith wrote: > >> Therefore, verbs must live in a CONJUGAL relationship with a person; >> nouns, pronouns, and adjectives, DECLINE their generic, lexical meaning >> in order to live in community within a sentence. >> >> Melissa Smith >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From elena.ostrovskaya at GMAIL.COM Thu Sep 2 16:07:20 2010 From: elena.ostrovskaya at GMAIL.COM (Elena Ostrovskaya) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 20:07:20 +0400 Subject: Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E, W In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We definitely never think in terms of compass directions as we walk around the city. What is more, I don't know about Sebastopol, but you never get any signs with them in the metro or streets in Moscow unless you are driving along the Rings, of course. North or South is very rare as part of a toponym in Moscow, so even if a person somehow marks his or her own movements as going north, or east, or whatever, I don't think you will get it in his or her directions. But it seems to be even deeper, I am afraid. Many people try not to use maps as they find them too complicated. It all changes with driving, of course, but non-driving city-dwellers, which are still quite numerous, often try to pretend that they are not up to map-reading. So originally it's not linguistics, just toponymy and habits, but eventually, for some people, it's a matter of usage, i.e. language. >From my perspective of a Russian city-walker, Elena Ostrovskaya. On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 7:09 PM, Mark Kingdom wrote: > Living here in Sevastopol, I ask my share of directions to places. > I don't recall *ever* getting an answer where the speaker used > compass directions. It's always, "Go straight, then turn left..." > Granted, plenty of Americans use left, right, straight terminology, > but plenty *also* use compass directions. "Go east on 7th and then > turn north onto Broadway." > > Is that a cultural thing, you think, or a linguistic one? > > Just curious! > > Thanks all for the help! > > Mark > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From KrafcikP at EVERGREEN.EDU Thu Sep 2 16:19:54 2010 From: KrafcikP at EVERGREEN.EDU (Krafcik, Patricia) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 09:19:54 -0700 Subject: Russian Equivalent? Message-ID: Quick Question, Colleagues: My son's cross-country running friends at high school want to place on their T-shirts the Russian equivalent of this phrase: "Go big or go home!" meaning "Do it all the way or don't do it at all!" or something to this effect. I've gotten suggestions from friends, but our efforts thus far seem simply too literate, and not "slangy" enough. Is there some way to express this idea in good Russian slang? Thanks in advance for your suggestions. Pat Krafcik The Evergreen State College krafcikp at evergreen.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Andrej.Oelze at STUDIUM.UNI-HAMBURG.DE Thu Sep 2 16:20:50 2010 From: Andrej.Oelze at STUDIUM.UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Andrej Oelze) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 18:20:50 +0200 Subject: AW: [SEELANGS] Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E, W In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Mark, as the German I am - and we also do not use compass directions - I would like to add one important fact besides the one Amarilis already mentioned. I don't think, nearly 50 percent of any people anywhere in the world know the cardinal direction when they are "on the road". But isn't it an important fact that streets in many US states have compass directions added - like for example "Hobart Street S.E."? So compass directions are more common and it makes it easier using them... Andrej -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] Im Auftrag von Mark Kingdom Gesendet: Donnerstag, 2. September 2010 17:09 An: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Betreff: [SEELANGS] Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E, W Living here in Sevastopol, I ask my share of directions to places. I don't recall *ever* getting an answer where the speaker used compass directions. It's always, "Go straight, then turn left..." Granted, plenty of Americans use left, right, straight terminology, but plenty *also* use compass directions. "Go east on 7th and then turn north onto Broadway." Is that a cultural thing, you think, or a linguistic one? Just curious! Thanks all for the help! Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ericson at AMERICANCOUNCILS.ORG Thu Sep 2 16:22:16 2010 From: ericson at AMERICANCOUNCILS.ORG (Brita Ericson) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 11:22:16 -0500 Subject: New American Councils Website for Research Fellowships Message-ID: American Councils is pleased to announce the launch of its newest website: http://researchfellowships.americancouncils.org/ With funds from the U.S. Department of State (Title VIII), American Councils administers several major grants for independent, overseas policy relevant research in the humanities and social sciences as well as language training. This site features full program details, application instructions, FAQs, and information on previously funded projects. In recent years, American Councils scholars have conducted independent research in Albania, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kosovo, Kyrgyzstan, Macedonia, Moldova, Montenegro, Romania, Russia, Serbia, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Ukraine. Applications are now being accepted for our October 1st, 2010 deadline. All application materials must be postmarked by October 1st for programs that begin between February 1, 2011 and June 30, 2012. American Councils for International Education: ACTR/ACCELS 1828 L St., NW Suite 1200 Washington DC 20036 http://researchfellowships.americancouncils.org/ http://www.americancouncils.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rmcleminson at POST.SK Thu Sep 2 16:14:44 2010 From: rmcleminson at POST.SK (R. M. Cleminson) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 18:14:44 +0200 Subject: Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E, W In-Reply-To: <1307008850.43273.1283444080283.JavaMail.root@mbox01.in.post.sk> Message-ID: Many American cities are on a grid plan with streets orientated north-south or east-west; moreover, if you're in New York, for example, you know that if it's a street, it's (roughly) east-west, the higher numbers being further north, and if it's an avenue it's (roughly) north-south, the higher numbers being further west. Therefore compass directions are useful and comprehensible in this environment. Elsewhere in the world, as a rule, streets are neither straight nor orientated, and so even if you knew where north was when you started out, after a few twists and turns you probably don't any more, and neither does the person you're asking for directions. ----- Originálna správa ----- Odosielateľ: "Mark Kingdom" Komu: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Dátum: štvrtok, september 2, 2010 04:09:23 Predmet: [SEELANGS] Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E, W Living here in Sevastopol, I ask my share of directions to places. I don't recall *ever* getting an answer where the speaker used compass directions. It's always, "Go straight, then turn left..." Granted, plenty of Americans use left, right, straight terminology, but plenty *also* use compass directions. "Go east on 7th and then turn north onto Broadway." Is that a cultural thing, you think, or a linguistic one? Just curious! Thanks all for the help! Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- _____________________________________________________________________ Aky bol svet v 20. storoci - http://mozaika.sme.sk ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU Thu Sep 2 16:34:49 2010 From: mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU (Melissa Smith) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 12:34:49 -0400 Subject: Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E, W Message-ID: A Russian friend of mine who spends a lot of time in England on research mentioned to me once that she had come to the following explanation: Russian settlement has taken place along rivers, so that directions are up and down along the particuar river: NIZHNIJ Novgorod, VERXNIJ Ust-Ulimsk(?), ZAmoskovie, ZAvolzh'e, etc. Melissa Smith On 9/2/10 12:14 PM, R. M. Cleminson wrote: > Many American cities are on a grid plan with streets orientated north-south or east-west; moreover, if you're in New York, for example, you know that if it's a street, it's (roughly) east-west, the higher numbers being further north, and if it's an avenue it's (roughly) north-south, the higher numbers being further west. Therefore compass directions are useful and comprehensible in this environment. Elsewhere in the world, as a rule, streets are neither straight nor orientated, and so even if you knew where north was when you started out, after a few twists and turns you probably don't any more, and neither does the person you're asking for directions. > > ----- Originálna správa ----- > Odosielateľ: "Mark Kingdom" > Komu: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Dátum: štvrtok, september 2, 2010 04:09:23 > Predmet: [SEELANGS] Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E, W > > Living here in Sevastopol, I ask my share of directions to places. > I don't recall *ever* getting an answer where the speaker used > compass directions. It's always, "Go straight, then turn left..." > Granted, plenty of Americans use left, right, straight terminology, > but plenty *also* use compass directions. "Go east on 7th and then > turn north onto Broadway." > > Is that a cultural thing, you think, or a linguistic one? > > Just curious! > > Thanks all for the help! > > Mark > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > _____________________________________________________________________ > > Aky bol svet v 20. storoci - http://mozaika.sme.sk > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------ Melissa T. Smith, Professor Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures Youngstown State University Youngstown, OH 44555 Tel: (330)941-3462 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Thu Sep 2 16:38:16 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 17:38:16 +0100 Subject: Russian Equivalent? In-Reply-To: <3171EF0C0146664DA703DE4D8DB912650266A35A@birch.evergreen.edu> Message-ID: What about a Yodish equivalent? "Do, or do not. There is no 'try'." ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ On 2 September 2010 17:19, Krafcik, Patricia wrote: > Quick Question, Colleagues: > > My son's cross-country running friends at high school want to place on > their > T-shirts the Russian equivalent of this phrase: "Go big or go home!" > meaning > "Do it all the way or don't do it at all!" or something to this effect. > I've gotten > suggestions from friends, but our efforts thus far seem simply too > literate, > and not "slangy" enough. Is there some way to express this idea in good > Russian > slang? > > Thanks in advance for your suggestions. > Pat Krafcik > The Evergreen State College > krafcikp at evergreen.edu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From djbpitt+seelangs at PITT.EDU Thu Sep 2 16:55:48 2010 From: djbpitt+seelangs at PITT.EDU (David J. Birnbaum) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 11:55:48 -0500 Subject: Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E, W Message-ID: Dear SEELANGers, Concerning the use (or avoidance) of compass points for navigation, http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/magazine/29language-t.html contains a discussion of the differences among cultures that distinguish geographic coordinates from that use egocentric ones. Cheers, David ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU Thu Sep 2 17:12:59 2010 From: hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU (Hugh McLean) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 10:12:59 -0700 Subject: MOROZKO In-Reply-To: <20100902092438.AFJ53953@mstore-prod-2.pdc.uis.georgetown.edu> Message-ID: This seems good to me, except for the "they." It's the macexa who does the beating. > перевернешься – бита, и не довернешься - бита, и в пору - > бита. > > = > you turn all the way around--they don't like it and beat you; you turn just a little [not enough]--they don't like it and beat you; you do it just right -- they still beat you > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rrobin at GWU.EDU Thu Sep 2 18:43:07 2010 From: rrobin at GWU.EDU (Richard Robin) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 14:43:07 -0400 Subject: Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E, W In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The fact that Russians don't use compass directions has always been frustrating to me. Whenever I come out of a Moscow metro station that I have never seen before, my first instinct is to try and figure out where north is. If I know that, I can find almost anything. But alas, on a cloudy day or at night, with no sun for guidance, I know that no one I ask will be able to tell me where north is. Of course, in the northern part of the city, I can use Ostankino as a marker. But elsewhere it's hopeless. Maybe I should carry around a compass. Perhaps I'm atypical, even for an American. My wife is ready to divorce me every time I say something like "It's on the southeast corner of Wisconsin Avenue and Reservoir Road." -Rich Robin -- Richard M. Robin Director Russian Language Program The George Washington University Washington, DC 20052 202-994-7081 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From roman.ivashkiv at UALBERTA.CA Thu Sep 2 19:45:11 2010 From: roman.ivashkiv at UALBERTA.CA (Roman Ivashkiv) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 13:45:11 -0600 Subject: Russian Equivalent? In-Reply-To: <3171EF0C0146664DA703DE4D8DB912650266A35A@birch.evergreen.edu> Message-ID: Dear Dr. Krafcik, I am really curious to see suggestions from more experienced colleagues that would be idiomatically closer to your English slogan, but in the context of cross-country running, here are a few options: Бежать до конца - не потерять лица! Умереть - добежать, вторым не стать! Бежал по делу - гуляй смело! Беги, давай, не отставай! Хоть ноги изломать, но первым добежать! Бежать! Не проиграть! Твою мать! (This may be a little too "slangy" for high school, though). Нас не догонят! (That's from "ТАТУ," so, although it works well contextually, one may need to be careful with associations, etc) I hope this helps a little bit. If not, maybe it'll spur more ideas. Sincerely, Roman Ivashkiv -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Krafcik, Patricia Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 10:20 AM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] Russian Equivalent? Quick Question, Colleagues: My son's cross-country running friends at high school want to place on their T-shirts the Russian equivalent of this phrase: "Go big or go home!" meaning "Do it all the way or don't do it at all!" or something to this effect. I've gotten suggestions from friends, but our efforts thus far seem simply too literate, and not "slangy" enough. Is there some way to express this idea in good Russian slang? Thanks in advance for your suggestions. Pat Krafcik The Evergreen State College krafcikp at evergreen.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Thu Sep 2 19:55:12 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 20:55:12 +0100 Subject: MOROZKO (and a SECOND question!) In-Reply-To: <4C7FA626.3040201@gatech.edu> Message-ID: Dear all, My thanks to everyone who has responded. I am, however, still not quite sure what the 'turning' verbs really mean. To keep the idea of turning or twisting will be confusing in English. Does the following seem acceptable? "Once upon a time there was a widower who had taken a second wife. He had a daughter of his own, and his wife had a daughter too. Well, everyone knows what it’s like to live with a stepmother. Do too much – you get beaten. Do too little – you get beaten. Do things just right – and you still get beaten." Or would it be better to have something like "Do things too quickly – you get beaten. Do things too slowly – you get beaten. Do things just right – and you still get beaten." And my second question is about the girl's first words to Moroz in Afanasyev 96: «Добро пожаловать, Мороз; знать, бог тебя принес по мою душу грешную». Is the following correct? "God has brought you here to FETCH my sinful soul." Guterman has her say, "God must have sent you to SAVE my sinful soul." But this would be presumptuous on her part, wouldn't it? All the best, Robert > I understand it as turn over/turn too far, turn not far enough. > > I might take some liberty and say: > > twist too far -- you get hit, not enough -- you get hit, and a whack in > good time as well. > > Best regards, > Stuart Goldberg > > > On 9/2/2010 9:17 AM, Robert Chandler wrote: >> Dear all, >> >> This is from the version of the skazka collected by Karnaukhova: >> >> У деда была доцка и у бабы была доцка. Ну, ланно. Вси знают, как за >> мацехой жить: перевернешься – бита, и не довернешься - бита, и в пору - >> бита. >> >> Can someone help me with перевернешься and довернешься, which I don’t >> understand at all? >> >> All the best, >> >> Robert >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU Thu Sep 2 21:26:22 2010 From: mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU (Melissa Smith) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 17:26:22 -0400 Subject: Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E, W Message-ID: I don't know what knowledge is typical in any culture. I personally like studying maps and carry the directions of the compass in my head, but I've been astounded when I try to teach points of the compass, and my students on a commuter campus don't know which way is home! I think it's only going to get worse, since GPS tends to indicate the direction you happen to be headed. The route that one needs to take is the most relevant information, and directions of the compass involve an extra layer of abstraction from one's personal world. You may not need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing, but if you want to communicate this information to someone else, you need a shared system of coordinates! Melissa On 9/2/10 2:43 PM, Richard Robin wrote: > The fact that Russians don't use compass directions has always been > frustrating to me. Whenever I come out of a Moscow metro station that I have > never seen before, my first instinct is to try and figure out where north > is. If I know that, I can find almost anything. But alas, on a cloudy day or > at night, with no sun for guidance, I know that no one I ask will be able to > tell me where north is. Of course, in the northern part of the city, I can > use Ostankino as a marker. But elsewhere it's hopeless. Maybe I should carry > around a compass. > > Perhaps I'm atypical, even for an American. My wife is ready to divorce me > every time I say something like "It's on the southeast corner of Wisconsin > Avenue and Reservoir Road." > > -Rich Robin > > -- > Richard M. Robin > Director Russian Language Program > The George Washington University > Washington, DC 20052 > 202-994-7081 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------ Melissa T. Smith, Professor Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures Youngstown State University Youngstown, OH 44555 Tel: (330)941-3462 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From KrafcikP at EVERGREEN.EDU Thu Sep 2 21:28:33 2010 From: KrafcikP at EVERGREEN.EDU (Krafcik, Patricia) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 14:28:33 -0700 Subject: Russian Equivalent? Message-ID: Thanks, Roman, and also to a few others who have made suggestions about Russian equivalents for "Go big or go home!" Thus far, the best has been "Vse sto ili nichego!" from Nathan Hawryluk. Some others have been perhaps a bit too literal, without the "slangy" rhythm that "Go big or go home!" has ("Ili staraisja na vse sto, ili ne delai voobshche" and "Delai kak nado ili ne beris' vovse"-- a couple of examples). Your list here is excellent, and I suspect that the boys will focus in on an appropriate choice from all that has been suggested up to now. (I may not share with them the "tvoiu mat'" selection, though.... LOL!) --Pat -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list on behalf of Roman Ivashkiv Sent: Thu 9/2/2010 12:45 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian Equivalent? Dear Dr. Krafcik, I am really curious to see suggestions from more experienced colleagues that would be idiomatically closer to your English slogan, but in the context of cross-country running, here are a few options: ?????? ?? ????? - ?? ???????? ????! ??????? - ????????, ?????? ?? ?????! ????? ?? ???? - ????? ?????! ????, ?????, ?? ????????! ???? ???? ????????, ?? ?????? ????????! ??????! ?? ?????????! ???? ????! (This may be a little too "slangy" for high school, though). ??? ?? ???????! (That's from "????," so, although it works well contextually, one may need to be careful with associations, etc) I hope this helps a little bit. If not, maybe it'll spur more ideas. Sincerely, Roman Ivashkiv -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Krafcik, Patricia Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 10:20 AM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] Russian Equivalent? Quick Question, Colleagues: My son's cross-country running friends at high school want to place on their T-shirts the Russian equivalent of this phrase: "Go big or go home!" meaning "Do it all the way or don't do it at all!" or something to this effect. I've gotten suggestions from friends, but our efforts thus far seem simply too literate, and not "slangy" enough. Is there some way to express this idea in good Russian slang? Thanks in advance for your suggestions. Pat Krafcik The Evergreen State College krafcikp at evergreen.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ameliede at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Sep 2 23:05:45 2010 From: ameliede at EARTHLINK.NET (J F Levin) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 16:05:45 -0700 Subject: B 3ACTEHKE? Message-ID: Colleagues: I just got a query from the manager of one of the Jewish genealogy lists regarding a translation being done of some archival material i Kaunas. The translator translated "v zastenke" as "in the torture chamber" followed by a place name. I could not find zastenok in online Dal', and of course in my Ozhegov it seems to mean more or less that. But the gentleman who sent the query and I are both sceptical. I assume this is a 19th Century record, what could it be? Could it have just meant something like "punishment cell" in a prison? Jules Levin PS Don't let the "Cyrillic" on the subject line fool you. I cannot write Cyrillic in eudora--it was cleverly made entirely from the Latin keyboard. So please transliterate if you cite from a Russian source. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From e.gapova at GMAIL.COM Fri Sep 3 00:06:17 2010 From: e.gapova at GMAIL.COM (Elena Gapova) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 20:06:17 -0400 Subject: B 3ACTEHKE? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Zastenak" has several meanings. In Belarusian (and Kaunas belongs to the Belarusian-Lithuanian linguistic area) it can be: 1. prison; 2. a small and impoverished estate, similar to "хутор" ("засцянковая шляхта" - small nobility which did not have the land of its own and had to rent); 3. a village type which emerged in the 16th century: see http://be.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%86%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BA Most probably, if someone was born "v zastenke" followed by a proper name, this should be translated as "in the village of..." e.g. 2010/9/2 J F Levin > Colleagues: > I just got a query from the manager of one of the Jewish genealogy lists > regarding a translation being done > of some archival material i Kaunas. The translator translated "v zastenke" > as "in the torture chamber" followed > by a place name. I could not find zastenok in online Dal', and of course > in my Ozhegov it seems to mean more or > less that. But the gentleman who sent the query and I are both sceptical. > I assume this is a 19th Century record, what could it be? Could it have > just meant something like "punishment cell" > in a prison? > Jules Levin > PS Don't let the "Cyrillic" on the subject line fool you. I cannot write > Cyrillic in eudora--it was cleverly made entirely > from the Latin keyboard. So please transliterate if you cite from a > Russian source. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pashuk at KNOLOGY.NET Fri Sep 3 00:09:01 2010 From: pashuk at KNOLOGY.NET (Oleg Pashuk) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 20:09:01 -0400 Subject: B 3ACTEHKE? Message-ID: "V zastenke" simply means "in prison." It has nothing to do with "the torture chamber" ----- Original Message ----- From: "J F Levin" To: Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 7:05 PM Subject: [SEELANGS] B 3ACTEHKE? > Colleagues: > I just got a query from the manager of one of the Jewish genealogy lists > regarding a translation being done > of some archival material i Kaunas. The translator translated "v > zastenke" as "in the torture chamber" followed > by a place name. I could not find zastenok in online Dal', and of course > in my Ozhegov it seems to mean more or > less that. But the gentleman who sent the query and I are both sceptical. > I assume this is a 19th Century record, what could it be? Could it have > just meant something like "punishment cell" > in a prison? > Jules Levin > PS Don't let the "Cyrillic" on the subject line fool you. I cannot write > Cyrillic in eudora--it was cleverly made entirely > from the Latin keyboard. So please transliterate if you cite from a > Russian source. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From nicolakuchta at YAHOO.COM Fri Sep 3 00:47:25 2010 From: nicolakuchta at YAHOO.COM (Nicola Kuchta) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 17:47:25 -0700 Subject: LCES 2010 Appel =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0contributions?= Message-ID: I am posting this call for submissions on behalf of La Lett Dear list, I am posting this call for submissions on behalf of La Lettre du Centre d'études slaves. Please contact them directly for further information. Best regards, Nicola Kuchta University of Pittsburgh Slavic Languages and Literatures ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: Canadian Slavonic Papers To: Canadian Slavonic Papers Sent: Thu, September 2, 2010 3:19:40 PM Subject: FW: LCES2010_3_Appel à contributions ________________________________ From:Centre d'études slaves [mailto:centre.etudes-slaves at paris-sorbonne.fr] Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 3:43 AM Subject: LCES2010_3_Appel à contributions La Lettre du Centre d'études slaves propose trois fois par an aux slavisants et, d'une manière générale, à tous ceux qui s'intéressent à l'Europe centrale, orientale et balkanique des informations sur les séminaires etconférences, les colloques et congrès, l'actualité du livre, etc. Outre la version papier disponible sur simple demande, la LCES estconsultable avec ses archives sur notre site internet : www.etudes-slaves.paris-sorbonne.fr. Soucieux d'enrichir les pages rédactionnelles de la LCES, nous lançons un appel à contributions à tous ceux qui, enseignants ou chercheurs, sont concernés par les études slaves. Si vous souhaitez diffuser des informations, présenter un établissement, un centre de recherche, un périodique ou un site web spécialisé, un cycle d'enseignement, un programme d'étude en cours, annoncer un colloque ou une soutenance de thèse, rendre compte d'une manifestation scientifique, n'hésitez pas à prendre contact avec nous* : LCES - Rédaction 9 rue Michelet, 75006 Paris Téléphone: +33 (0)1 43 26 66 00 Télécopie : +33 (0)1 43 26 66 65 Courriel: Revue.etudes-slaves at paris-sorbonne.fr * Date limite de remise des textes pour la prochaine LCES : 10 octobre 2010. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kevin.windle at ANU.EDU.AU Fri Sep 3 00:54:34 2010 From: kevin.windle at ANU.EDU.AU (Kevin Windle) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 10:54:34 +1000 Subject: B 3ACTEHKE? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In its Polish form zaścianek it has a similar historical sense to the Belarusan. It is rendered in Stanislawski's dictionary as 'yeomen's settlement' (okolica szlachecka). See also Dal' for older senses of the Russian word, mentioning Polish: khutor, odinokii poselok na pustoshi, vne obshchei krest'ianskoi mezhi. Kevin Windle -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Elena Gapova Sent: Friday, 3 September 2010 10:06 AM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] B 3ACTEHKE? "Zastenak" has several meanings. In Belarusian (and Kaunas belongs to the Belarusian-Lithuanian linguistic area) it can be: 1. prison; 2. a small and impoverished estate, similar to "хутор" ("засцянковая шляхта" - small nobility which did not have the land of its own and had to rent); 3. a village type which emerged in the 16th century: see http://be.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%86%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BA Most probably, if someone was born "v zastenke" followed by a proper name, this should be translated as "in the village of..." e.g. 2010/9/2 J F Levin > Colleagues: > I just got a query from the manager of one of the Jewish genealogy lists > regarding a translation being done > of some archival material i Kaunas. The translator translated "v zastenke" > as "in the torture chamber" followed > by a place name. I could not find zastenok in online Dal', and of course > in my Ozhegov it seems to mean more or > less that. But the gentleman who sent the query and I are both sceptical. > I assume this is a 19th Century record, what could it be? Could it have > just meant something like "punishment cell" > in a prison? > Jules Levin > PS Don't let the "Cyrillic" on the subject line fool you. I cannot write > Cyrillic in eudora--it was cleverly made entirely > from the Latin keyboard. So please transliterate if you cite from a > Russian source. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From af38 at COLUMBIA.EDU Fri Sep 3 00:57:54 2010 From: af38 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Anna Frajlich-Zajac) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 20:57:54 -0400 Subject: B 3ACTEHKE? In-Reply-To: <540CE951003E6442A97FE5DB625B3DE90C492D@CASSEXG01.artsfleet.anu.edu.au> Message-ID: Bravo!! _______________________________ On Sep 2, 2010, at 8:54 PM, Kevin Windle wrote: > In its Polish form zaścianek it has a similar historical sense to > the Belarusan. It is rendered in Stanislawski's dictionary as > 'yeomen's settlement' (okolica szlachecka). > > > > See also Dal' for older senses of the Russian word, mentioning > Polish: khutor, odinokii poselok na pustoshi, vne obshchei > krest'ianskoi mezhi. > > > > Kevin Windle > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures > list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Elena Gapova > Sent: Friday, 3 September 2010 10:06 AM > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] B 3ACTEHKE? > > > > "Zastenak" has several meanings. > > In Belarusian (and Kaunas belongs to the Belarusian-Lithuanian > linguistic > > area) it can be: > > 1. prison; > > 2. a small and impoverished estate, similar to > "хутор" ("засцянковая шляхта" > > - small nobility which did not have the land of its own and had to > rent); > > 3. a village type which emerged in the 16th century: see > > http://be.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%86%D0%B5%D0%BD% > D0%B0%D0%BA > > > > Most probably, if someone was born "v zastenke" followed by a > proper name, > > this should be translated as "in the village of..." > > > > e.g. > > > > 2010/9/2 J F Levin > > > >> Colleagues: > >> I just got a query from the manager of one of the Jewish genealogy >> lists > >> regarding a translation being done > >> of some archival material i Kaunas. The translator translated "v >> zastenke" > >> as "in the torture chamber" followed > >> by a place name. I could not find zastenok in online Dal', and of >> course > >> in my Ozhegov it seems to mean more or > >> less that. But the gentleman who sent the query and I are both >> sceptical. > >> I assume this is a 19th Century record, what could it be? Could >> it have > >> just meant something like "punishment cell" > >> in a prison? > >> Jules Levin > >> PS Don't let the "Cyrillic" on the subject line fool you. I >> cannot write > >> Cyrillic in eudora--it was cleverly made entirely > >> from the Latin keyboard. So please transliterate if you cite from a > >> Russian source. > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ---- > >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your >> subscription > >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface >> at: > >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ---- > >> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface > at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From beyer at MIDDLEBURY.EDU Fri Sep 3 01:05:31 2010 From: beyer at MIDDLEBURY.EDU (Beyer, Tom) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 01:05:31 +0000 Subject: 501 Russian Verbs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Stephanie, as the author of the book I was happy to follow the conversation and hope that all Your verbs are active ones. I do recall learning Russian many years ago and hearing that there were only two conjugations in Russian. Ah if only it were that simple. Tom Beyer :-) On 9/2/10 11:29 AM, "Stephanie Briggs" wrote: > *laughs* Oh boy, I can see the dirty jokes in Russian I starting now... > > ***************************** > ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs > http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ > > Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! > THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! > http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ > > > > > On 2 September 2010 16:27, amarilis wrote: > >> Oh, thank you so much! Much needed levity in the midst of starting verbs >> with my Russian I class. >> Amarilis >> >> On 9/2/2010 10:43 AM, Melissa Smith wrote: >> >>> Therefore, verbs must live in a CONJUGAL relationship with a person; >>> nouns, pronouns, and adjectives, DECLINE their generic, lexical meaning >>> in order to live in community within a sentence. >>> >>> Melissa Smith >>> >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From n_shevchuk at YAHOO.COM Fri Sep 3 01:38:37 2010 From: n_shevchuk at YAHOO.COM (Nina Murray) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 18:38:37 -0700 Subject: MOROZKO (and a SECOND question!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That Robert, how about just, "God sent you AFTER my sinful soul?" That way, you avoid presuming anything... Best, Nina Translator of "Fish: A Story of One Migration" http://www.russianlife.com/peteraleshkovsky/ ________________________________ From: Robert Chandler To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Sent: Thu, September 2, 2010 2:55:12 PM Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] MOROZKO (and a SECOND question!) Dear all, My thanks to everyone who has responded. I am, however, still not quite sure what the 'turning' verbs really mean. To keep the idea of turning or twisting will be confusing in English. Does the following seem acceptable? "Once upon a time there was a widower who had taken a second wife. He had a daughter of his own, and his wife had a daughter too. Well, everyone knows what it’s like to live with a stepmother. Do too much – you get beaten. Do too little – you get beaten. Do things just right – and you still get beaten." Or would it be better to have something like "Do things too quickly – you get beaten. Do things too slowly – you get beaten. Do things just right – and you still get beaten." And my second question is about the girl's first words to Moroz in Afanasyev 96: «Добро пожаловать, Мороз; знать, бог тебя принес по мою душу грешную». Is the following correct? "God has brought you here to FETCH my sinful soul." Guterman has her say, "God must have sent you to SAVE my sinful soul." But this would be presumptuous on her part, wouldn't it? All the best, Robert > I understand it as turn over/turn too far, turn not far enough. > > I might take some liberty and say: > > twist too far -- you get hit, not enough -- you get hit, and a whack in > good time as well. > > Best regards, > Stuart Goldberg > > > On 9/2/2010 9:17 AM, Robert Chandler wrote: >> Dear all, >> >> This is from the version of the skazka collected by Karnaukhova: >> >> У деда была доцка и у бабы была доцка. Ну, ланно. Вси знают, как за >> мацехой жить: перевернешься – бита, и не довернешься - бита, и в пору - >> бита. >> >> Can someone help me with перевернешься and довернешься, which I don’t >> understand at all? >> >> All the best, >> >> Robert >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Fri Sep 3 02:22:39 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 22:22:39 -0400 Subject: MOROZKO (and a SECOND question!) In-Reply-To: <181757.51454.qm@web112401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: по мою душу грешную = to fetch [my sinful soul] ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mlsvetka at YAHOO.COM Fri Sep 3 03:21:16 2010 From: mlsvetka at YAHOO.COM (Svetlana Malykhina) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 20:21:16 -0700 Subject: Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E, W In-Reply-To: <23485736.1283462782546.JavaMail.mtsmith02@ysu.edu> Message-ID: I second the opinion that avoidance of using geographic coordinates is deeply embedded 'russian way' of describing urban places. From my observation, it seems like those who are sailing, hiking and driving around the places are more likely to use N S E W while telling the directions to places. Likewise those who know something about the starry sky, can locate the North Star and read by starlight can easily navigate a city at night. Astronomy and geography are sets of universal skills, aren't they?    Svitlana Malykhina --- On Fri, 3/9/10, Melissa Smith wrote: From: Melissa Smith Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E, W To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Date: Friday, 3 September, 2010, 0:26 I don't know what knowledge is typical in any culture. I personally like studying maps and carry the directions of the compass in my head, but I've been astounded when I try to teach points of the compass, and my students on a commuter campus don't know which way is home! I think it's only going to get worse, since GPS tends to indicate the direction you happen to be headed. The route that one needs to take is the most relevant information, and directions of the compass involve an extra layer of abstraction from one's personal world. You may not need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing, but if you want to communicate this information to someone else, you need a shared system of coordinates! Melissa On 9/2/10 2:43 PM, Richard Robin wrote: > The fact that Russians don't use compass directions has always been > frustrating to me. Whenever I come out of a Moscow metro station that I have > never seen before, my first instinct is to try and figure out where north > is. If I know that, I can find almost anything. But alas, on a cloudy day or > at night, with no sun for guidance, I know that no one I ask will be able to > tell me where north is. Of course, in the northern part of the city, I can > use Ostankino as a marker. But elsewhere it's hopeless. Maybe I should carry > around a compass. > > Perhaps I'm atypical, even for an American. My wife is ready to divorce me > every time I say something like "It's on the southeast corner of Wisconsin > Avenue and Reservoir Road." > > -Rich Robin > > -- > Richard M. Robin > Director Russian Language Program > The George Washington University > Washington, DC 20052 > 202-994-7081 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - >  Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >   options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >                     http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------ Melissa T. Smith, Professor Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures  Youngstown State University Youngstown, OH 44555 Tel: (330)941-3462 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription   options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at:                     http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bowrudder at GMAIL.COM Fri Sep 3 05:06:37 2010 From: bowrudder at GMAIL.COM (Charles Mills) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 22:06:37 -0700 Subject: Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E, W In-Reply-To: <469181.93715.qm@web57307.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My impression is that astronomy and orienteering are not universal skills. Think of what relative recent original the coordinate system is, how culture-specific it is (essentially an artifact of seafaring), how abstract it is, and how -- as numerous people here have pointed out -- of its dubious value in the context of a city not laid out on a grid. I am a sea kayaker in my free time, so I am fairly well versed in the black art of navigation by chart and compass. That said, on dry land living on a curved bay is enough to drive you to distraction. Short of carrying a compass or making reference to the sun or direction of the clouds, it's almost impossible to keep track of which way is north as you make your way around the bay. It's always changing. The same would apply to a historic city like Moscow that grew in concentric circles. So I'm not surprised by that. My dismay has been rather at Russians' unfamiliarity with the culture of maps. I will never forget the day I handed my map to a man on the street as I asked for directions in Leningrad. First he turned it one way. Then another. Then another again. It was almost comical as he tried to get his bearings. I got the impression that he had never held a map before, and that was not untypical. I came away with the impression that Russians simply use maps less. But, like taxi drivers, the typical urban Russian carries a huge spacial representation of the city in his or her head. For example, every Russian in Petersburg knows exactly which car on the subway to get on -- down to the door -- to get off at such-and-such a station and transfer to another line with the fewest steps. C. Mills Monterey On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 8:21 PM, Svetlana Malykhina wrote: > I second the opinion that avoidance of using geographic coordinates is > deeply embedded 'russian way' of describing urban places. From my > observation, it seems like those who are sailing, hiking and driving around > the places are more likely to use N S E W while telling the directions to > places. Likewise those who know something about the starry sky, can locate > the North Star and read by starlight can easily navigate a city at night. > Astronomy and geography are sets of universal skills, aren't they? > > Svitlana Malykhina ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jwilson at SRAS.ORG Fri Sep 3 07:34:55 2010 From: jwilson at SRAS.ORG (Josh Wilson) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 11:34:55 +0400 Subject: Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E, W In-Reply-To: <469181.93715.qm@web57307.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Not at all universal, no. Common across cultures, but not at all universally accepted, used, or even really comprehensible. Here's another couple interesting tidbits: When at home (in rural Idaho), I can easily find the North Star. I can usually point out Venus, Mars, and on a really clear night, the tail of the Milky Way. However, in Moscow (and New York for that matter), glaring city lights obliterate most if not nearly all of the stars, and it disorients me. Plus, with almost-constant cloud cover, stars are very haphazard way of navigating Moscow in my opinion. I could probably relearn how to tell the North Star from 3-4 other visible stars, but it's never struck me as worth my time. Another interesting fact - my wife grew up in Ashgabat and Moscow. She can generally navigate those cities with little effort, as though by instinct. However, in other cities, and especially cities that are built on a grid system, she very quickly becomes disoriented. She is amazed at the fact that I can, however, having been raised in grid-system cities, can always point to where we need to go... with a grid, I can easily carry the map in my head and maintain my position within it. In Moscow, I generally navigate by public transportation and a map in my hand. Josh Wilson Assistant Director The School of Russian and Asian Studies Editor in Chief Vestnik, The Journal of Russian and Asian Studies SRAS.org jwilson at sras.org -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Svetlana Malykhina Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 7:21 AM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E, W I second the opinion that avoidance of using geographic coordinates is deeply embedded 'russian way' of describing urban places. From my observation, it seems like those who are sailing, hiking and driving around the places are more likely to use N S E W while telling the directions to places. Likewise those who know something about the starry sky, can locate the North Star and read by starlight can easily navigate a city at night. Astronomy and geography are sets of universal skills, aren't they?    Svitlana Malykhina --- On Fri, 3/9/10, Melissa Smith wrote: From: Melissa Smith Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E, W To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Date: Friday, 3 September, 2010, 0:26 I don't know what knowledge is typical in any culture. I personally like studying maps and carry the directions of the compass in my head, but I've been astounded when I try to teach points of the compass, and my students on a commuter campus don't know which way is home! I think it's only going to get worse, since GPS tends to indicate the direction you happen to be headed. The route that one needs to take is the most relevant information, and directions of the compass involve an extra layer of abstraction from one's personal world. You may not need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing, but if you want to communicate this information to someone else, you need a shared system of coordinates! Melissa On 9/2/10 2:43 PM, Richard Robin wrote: > The fact that Russians don't use compass directions has always been > frustrating to me. Whenever I come out of a Moscow metro station that I have > never seen before, my first instinct is to try and figure out where north > is. If I know that, I can find almost anything. But alas, on a cloudy day or > at night, with no sun for guidance, I know that no one I ask will be able to > tell me where north is. Of course, in the northern part of the city, I can > use Ostankino as a marker. But elsewhere it's hopeless. Maybe I should carry > around a compass. > > Perhaps I'm atypical, even for an American. My wife is ready to divorce me > every time I say something like "It's on the southeast corner of Wisconsin > Avenue and Reservoir Road." > > -Rich Robin > > -- > Richard M. Robin > Director Russian Language Program > The George Washington University > Washington, DC 20052 > 202-994-7081 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - >  Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >   options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >                     http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------ Melissa T. Smith, Professor Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures  Youngstown State University Youngstown, OH 44555 Tel: (330)941-3462 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription   options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at:                     http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kbrostrom0707 at COMCAST.NET Fri Sep 3 08:48:45 2010 From: kbrostrom0707 at COMCAST.NET (Kenneth Brostrom) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 04:48:45 -0400 Subject: Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E, W In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As an old friend and native Detroiter pointed out to me some time ago, the East Side of Detroit is a basic grid, but the streets run from west southwest to east northeast, and from south southeast to north northwest. The early French settlers came up with this scheme in order to have the former streets parallel the Detroit River. The Germans, however, developed the West Side, and there the street grid is true north-south and east-west. Where the two sides meet in the middle is an often confusing muddle, a mute and lasting testament to cultural conflict, and a perfect place in which to get lost on a dark and stormy night. I speak from unhappy experience. Coming from a Scando-Germanic background, whenever I leave the East Side, that zone of Gallic whimsicality, and enter the West Side with its Teutonic good sense, I heave a huge sigh of relief, and my well trained car with me. And it is westward ho! back home to Ann Arbor. Cheers, Ken Brostrom >The fact that Russians don't use compass directions has always been >frustrating to me. Whenever I come out of a Moscow metro station that I have >never seen before, my first instinct is to try and figure out where north >is. If I know that, I can find almost anything. But alas, on a cloudy day or >at night, with no sun for guidance, I know that no one I ask will be able to >tell me where north is. Of course, in the northern part of the city, I can >use Ostankino as a marker. But elsewhere it's hopeless. Maybe I should carry >around a compass. > >Perhaps I'm atypical, even for an American. My wife is ready to divorce me >every time I say something like "It's on the southeast corner of Wisconsin >Avenue and Reservoir Road." > >-Rich Robin > >-- >Richard M. Robin >Director Russian Language Program >The George Washington University >Washington, DC 20052 >202-994-7081 > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Fri Sep 3 10:03:38 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 11:03:38 +0100 Subject: 501 Russian Verbs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm reminded of the scene in Monty Python's "The Life of Brian", where Brian gets a grammar lesson from a Centurion. [*Brian is writing graffiti on the palace wall. The Centurion catches him in the act*] *Centurion *: What's this, then? "Romanes eunt domus"? People called Romanes, they go, the house? *Brian *: It says, "Romans go home. " *Centurion *: No it doesn't ! What's the latin for "Roman"? Come on, come on ! *Brian *: Er, "Romanus" ! *Centurion *: Vocative plural of "Romanus" is? *Brian *: Er, er, "Romani" ! *Centurion *: [*Writes "Romani" over Brian's graffiti*] "Eunt"? What is "eunt"? Conjugate the verb, "to go" ! *Brian *: Er, "Ire". Er, "eo", "is", "it", "imus", "itis", "eunt". *Centurion *: So, "eunt" is...? *Brian *: Third person plural present indicative, "they go". *Centurion *: But, "Romans, go home" is an order. So you must use...? [*He twists Brian's ear*] *Brian *: Aaagh ! The imperative ! *Centurion *: Which is...? *Brian *: Aaaagh ! Er, er, "i" ! *Centurion *: How many Romans? *Brian *: Aaaaagh ! Plural, plural, er, "ite" ! *Centurion *: [*Writes "ite"*] "Domus"? Nominative? "Go home" is motion towards, isn't it? *Brian *: Dative ! [*the Centurion holds a sword to his throat*] *Brian *: Aaagh ! Not the dative, not the dative ! Er, er, accusative, "Domum" ! *Centurion *: But "Domus" takes the locative, which is...? *Brian *: Er, "Domum" ! *Centurion *: [*Writes "Domum"*] Understand? Now, write it out a hundred times. *Brian *: Yes sir. Thank you, sir. Hail Caesar, sir. *Centurion *: Hail Caesar ! And if it's not done by sunrise, I'll cut your balls off. Funny thing was, when I saw this for the first time, I was pre-empting Brian on the correct cases he should use ("Accusative! Dative!"). Yeah, I need a hobby. Actually, I have one; I run my own Etsy knitting business. :) ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From diannamurphy at WISC.EDU Fri Sep 3 11:17:17 2010 From: diannamurphy at WISC.EDU (Dianna Murphy) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 06:17:17 -0500 Subject: Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E, W In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear SEELANGs, Somewhat related to this topic, there is interesting new research coming out of cognitive psychology that revisits -- and tries to empirically test -- the question of whether speakers of languages *think* and perceive the world differently. Lera Boroditsky, for example, a cognitive psychologist at Stanford who looks at differences in domains of thought such as space, time, motion, color, etc., discusses the example of Kuuk Thaayorrean, an aboriginal language in Australia, in which speakers express all direction in absolute reference frames ("there's an ant on my southwest leg," is one of her examples from this language), compared with languages such as English and Russian, in which speakers tend to use more relative frames, referring to themselves ("there's an ant on my left leg," which references the speaker) or other objects (landmarks, etc.). In looking at perceptions of color, Boroditskaya compares speakers of Russian and English directly, testing whether speakers of these languages perceive BLUE differently. Using tests of reaction time to color differences, she concludes that speakers of Russian do perceive blue (sinij/goluboj) differently than do speakers of English. The questions of whether speakers of different languages perceive the world differently is of course an old one, but Boroditky's research on language and cognition a new way of looking at possible answers. See: www-psych.stanford.edu/~lera/ Best regards, Dianna On 9/3/10 3:48 AM, Kenneth Brostrom wrote: > As an old friend and native Detroiter pointed out to me some time ago, > the East Side of Detroit is a basic grid, but the streets run from > west southwest to east northeast, and from south southeast to north > northwest. The early French settlers came up with this scheme in > order to have the former streets parallel the Detroit River. The > Germans, however, developed the West Side, and there the street grid > is true north-south and east-west. Where the two sides meet in the > middle is an often confusing muddle, a mute and lasting testament to > cultural conflict, and a perfect place in which to get lost on a dark > and stormy night. I speak from unhappy experience. Coming from a > Scando-Germanic background, whenever I leave the East Side, that zone > of Gallic whimsicality, and enter the West Side with its Teutonic good > sense, I heave a huge sigh of relief, and my well trained car with > me. And it is westward ho! back home to Ann Arbor. > > Cheers, > Ken Brostrom > > >> The fact that Russians don't use compass directions has always been >> frustrating to me. Whenever I come out of a Moscow metro station that >> I have >> never seen before, my first instinct is to try and figure out where >> north >> is. If I know that, I can find almost anything. But alas, on a cloudy >> day or >> at night, with no sun for guidance, I know that no one I ask will be >> able to >> tell me where north is. Of course, in the northern part of the city, >> I can >> use Ostankino as a marker. But elsewhere it's hopeless. Maybe I >> should carry >> around a compass. >> >> Perhaps I'm atypical, even for an American. My wife is ready to >> divorce me >> every time I say something like "It's on the southeast corner of >> Wisconsin >> Avenue and Reservoir Road." >> >> -Rich Robin >> >> -- >> Richard M. Robin >> Director Russian Language Program >> The George Washington University >> Washington, DC 20052 >> 202-994-7081 >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Dianna L. Murphy, Ph.D. Associate Director, Language Institute Associate Director, Russian Flagship Program University of Wisconsin-Madison 1322 Van Hise Hall, 1220 Linden Avenue Madison, WI 53706 (608) 262-1575 diannamurphy at wisc.edu www.languageinstitute.wisc.edu www.sla.wisc.edu www.russianflagship.wisc.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bradleygorski at GMAIL.COM Fri Sep 3 11:34:36 2010 From: bradleygorski at GMAIL.COM (Bradley Agnew Gorski) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 15:34:36 +0400 Subject: Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E, W In-Reply-To: <4C80D93D.7010802@wisc.edu> Message-ID: Last weekend's NYTimes Magazine featured an article that cites, at length, another Australian aboriginal language that uses cardinal instead of egocentric directions. The article uses examples from a language called Guugu Yimithirr via researchers John Haviland and Stephen Levinson, but the phenomenon seems parallel. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/magazine/29language-t.html?pagewanted=all Bradley Guugu Yimithirr John Haviland and later the linguist Stephen Levinson On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Dianna Murphy wrote: > Dear SEELANGs, > > Somewhat related to this topic, there is interesting new research coming > out of cognitive psychology that revisits -- and tries to empirically test > -- the question of whether speakers of languages *think* and perceive the > world differently. Lera Boroditsky, for example, a cognitive psychologist > at Stanford who looks at differences in domains of thought such as space, > time, motion, color, etc., discusses the example of Kuuk Thaayorrean, an > aboriginal language in Australia, in which speakers express all direction in > absolute reference frames ("there's an ant on my southwest leg," is one of > her examples from this language), compared with languages such as English > and Russian, in which speakers tend to use more relative frames, referring > to themselves ("there's an ant on my left leg," which references the > speaker) or other objects (landmarks, etc.). > > In looking at perceptions of color, Boroditskaya compares speakers of > Russian and English directly, testing whether speakers of these languages > perceive BLUE differently. Using tests of reaction time to color > differences, she concludes that speakers of Russian do perceive blue > (sinij/goluboj) differently than do speakers of English. > > The questions of whether speakers of different languages perceive the world > differently is of course an old one, but Boroditky's research on language > and cognition a new way of looking at possible answers. See: > www-psych.stanford.edu/~lera/ > > Best regards, > Dianna > > > > On 9/3/10 3:48 AM, Kenneth Brostrom wrote: > >> As an old friend and native Detroiter pointed out to me some time ago, the >> East Side of Detroit is a basic grid, but the streets run from west >> southwest to east northeast, and from south southeast to north northwest. >> The early French settlers came up with this scheme in order to have the >> former streets parallel the Detroit River. The Germans, however, developed >> the West Side, and there the street grid is true north-south and east-west. >> Where the two sides meet in the middle is an often confusing muddle, a mute >> and lasting testament to cultural conflict, and a perfect place in which to >> get lost on a dark and stormy night. I speak from unhappy experience. >> Coming from a Scando-Germanic background, whenever I leave the East Side, >> that zone of Gallic whimsicality, and enter the West Side with its Teutonic >> good sense, I heave a huge sigh of relief, and my well trained car with me. >> And it is westward ho! back home to Ann Arbor. >> >> Cheers, >> Ken Brostrom >> >> >> The fact that Russians don't use compass directions has always been >>> frustrating to me. Whenever I come out of a Moscow metro station that I >>> have >>> never seen before, my first instinct is to try and figure out where north >>> is. If I know that, I can find almost anything. But alas, on a cloudy day >>> or >>> at night, with no sun for guidance, I know that no one I ask will be able >>> to >>> tell me where north is. Of course, in the northern part of the city, I >>> can >>> use Ostankino as a marker. But elsewhere it's hopeless. Maybe I should >>> carry >>> around a compass. >>> >>> Perhaps I'm atypical, even for an American. My wife is ready to divorce >>> me >>> every time I say something like "It's on the southeast corner of >>> Wisconsin >>> Avenue and Reservoir Road." >>> >>> -Rich Robin >>> >>> -- >>> Richard M. Robin >>> Director Russian Language Program >>> The George Washington University >>> Washington, DC 20052 >>> 202-994-7081 >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >>> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >>> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > -- > Dianna L. Murphy, Ph.D. > Associate Director, Language Institute > Associate Director, Russian Flagship Program > University of Wisconsin-Madison > 1322 Van Hise Hall, 1220 Linden Avenue > Madison, WI 53706 > (608) 262-1575 > diannamurphy at wisc.edu > www.languageinstitute.wisc.edu > www.sla.wisc.edu > www.russianflagship.wisc.edu > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- bradleygorski at gmail.com +7.965.287.2737 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From psyling at YMAIL.COM Fri Sep 3 12:15:38 2010 From: psyling at YMAIL.COM (Psy Ling) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 05:15:38 -0700 Subject: Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E, W In-Reply-To: <953F88ACD5DA4120B23CE1CB29E4DEE5@JoshPC> Message-ID: A Russian person came to me for a visit. She asked where is the subway. I said: "Exit the house, go to the West (to the right), then turn left (which will be South), go 700 meters and on the right hand (which is West) you will see the sign of a subway station. It is such and such" She became really - really mad. "Do you think I am an idiot? Can you tell me in an easier way? Go right turn left and then you will see the subway?" The way most of the Russians explain how to get somewhere is "Go straight ahead and then you sill see it. It is not far", which makes me mad :-) Psy Ling ----- Original Message ---- > From: Josh Wilson > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Sent: Fri, September 3, 2010 3:34:55 AM > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E, W > > Another interesting fact - my wife grew up in Ashgabat and Moscow. She can > generally navigate those cities with little effort, as though by instinct. > However, in other cities, and especially cities that are built on a grid > system, she very quickly becomes disoriented. She is amazed at the fact that > I can, however, having been raised in grid-system cities, can always point > to where we need to go... with a grid, I can easily carry the map in my head > and maintain my position within it. In Moscow, I generally navigate by > public transportation and a map in my hand. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From lino59 at AMERITECH.NET Fri Sep 3 12:50:12 2010 From: lino59 at AMERITECH.NET (Deborah Hoffman) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 05:50:12 -0700 Subject: Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E and W In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Where I live (northeast Ohio) I am confused by how many people don't use directions either. If you tell me turn right on such and such street, then I go too far or there's construction, I now have no idea which way to get back on the road if you have not told me go east on it. We have a big lake here, to the north, and a pretty distinct division between west side and east side. Heck, the address numbers even conveniently go up on major streets as you're going east away from downtown and west away from downtown the other way, so to me it's not too hard to figure out which direction one is traveling but others may not carry the same mental map. On the other hand, within the home my mental map breaks down and I couldn't tell you, for example, what part of the basement the furnace sits underneath but would have to be told "go right at the stairs, then left" etc. So perhaps it comes down to one's ability, innate or developed, to picture spatial relations in a particular context.   Deborah Hoffman, Esq. Russian > English Translator On 9/2/10 2:43 PM, Richard Robin wrote: > The fact that Russians don't use compass directions has always been > frustrating to me. Whenever I come out of a Moscow metro station that I have > never seen before, my first instinct is to try and figure out where north > is. If I know that, I can find almost anything. But alas, on a cloudy day or > at night, with no sun for guidance, I know that no one I ask will be able to > tell me where north is. Of course, in the northern part of the city, I can > use Ostankino as a marker. But elsewhere it's hopeless. Maybe I should carry > around a compass. > > Perhaps I'm atypical, even for an American. My wife is ready to divorce me > every time I say something like "It's on the southeast corner of Wisconsin > Avenue and Reservoir Road." > > -Rich Robin > > -- > Richard M. Robin > Director Russian Language Program > The George Washington University > Washington, DC 20052 > 202-994-7081 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK Fri Sep 3 13:01:59 2010 From: Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK (Simon Beattie) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 14:01:59 +0100 Subject: Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E and W In-Reply-To: <239778.35667.qm@web80601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I don't think that here in Britain we would naturally give directions using points of the compass (although people might use compass points to help with location, e.g. "I live 25 miles north-west of London"). However, we do use them on signs: Northbound, Eastbound etc. on the London Underground, and simply "The North" or "The South West" on motorway signs. I don't remember seeing the latter usage anywhere else, though I'm sure someone will put me right! Simon -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Deborah Hoffman Sent: 03 September 2010 13:50 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E and W Where I live (northeast Ohio) I am confused by how many people don't use directions either. If you tell me turn right on such and such street, then I go too far or there's construction, I now have no idea which way to get back on the road if you have not told me go east on it. We have a big lake here, to the north, and a pretty distinct division between west side and east side. Heck, the address numbers even conveniently go up on major streets as you're going east away from downtown and west away from downtown the other way, so to me it's not too hard to figure out which direction one is traveling but others may not carry the same mental map. On the other hand, within the home my mental map breaks down and I couldn't tell you, for example, what part of the basement the furnace sits underneath but would have to be told "go right at the stairs, then left" etc. So perhaps it comes down to one's ability, innate or developed, to picture spatial relations in a particular context.   Deborah Hoffman, Esq. Russian > English Translator On 9/2/10 2:43 PM, Richard Robin wrote: > The fact that Russians don't use compass directions has always been > frustrating to me. Whenever I come out of a Moscow metro station that I have > never seen before, my first instinct is to try and figure out where north > is. If I know that, I can find almost anything. But alas, on a cloudy day or > at night, with no sun for guidance, I know that no one I ask will be able to > tell me where north is. Of course, in the northern part of the city, I can > use Ostankino as a marker. But elsewhere it's hopeless. Maybe I should carry > around a compass. > > Perhaps I'm atypical, even for an American. My wife is ready to divorce me > every time I say something like "It's on the southeast corner of Wisconsin > Avenue and Reservoir Road." > > -Rich Robin > > -- > Richard M. Robin > Director Russian Language Program > The George Washington University > Washington, DC 20052 > 202-994-7081 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Fri Sep 3 13:04:01 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 09:04:01 -0400 Subject: Whorf and coordinates in the Bible In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you, Brad, the article is beautiful. I think, however, it is important to restore the good name of Whorf. As for words, he may be all wrong, but grammatical systems do affect us--not necessarily by constraining but philosophically, by what we consider to be our priorities. Biblical Hebrew -- unlike the modern -- indeed thinks in the terms of aspects rather than tenses. This makes all the debates, superimposed later, on the Bible's historical inaccuracies (such as Evolutionism vs. Creationism and all such nonsense) completely irrelevant for understanding the true mentality of the authors, as well as the readers (the proper readers, that is, as we also should be, in order to understand it) of the Bible. Another important feature of Biblical Hebrew actually should take into account the difference between Modern Hebrew and Biblical: sometimes, what used to designate time (olam=eternity) now designates space (olam=the universe), and sometimes the same thing used to designat! e ! both: qedem, like qodem and interchangeably with it, used to mean both before and the east [!!!], and now it has separated into qedem, meaning the east, and qodem, meaning before. These, to us, are merely mild precursors of einstein, but to the mentality self evident for the writers and the readers of the Bible, these were the given and the self-evident. In Jakobson's terms, the Biblical authors, before the Masoretic vocalization, were not OBLIGED to tell their readers whether they spoke of time or space-- the dimensions were that close in some cases! The same goes for other notions of phonetics distinction but not the graphemic (Hebrew, before the straightjacketing of the Masoret codification, capitalized on homographs) between passive and active forms of verbs. A good example is the name of the place of the Aqedah--the sacrifice of Isaak. "God will see" (Adonai yir'eh) and "God will be seen (Adonai yirAeh") are used interchangeably! This goes into future mentalities way be! yo! nd Einstein, or rather way before (although also much after the Bible itself!)--into Nicholas of Cusa who, in "de icone/visione Dei", claimed that in order to see God, we have to contemplate Him as seeing us. All this concerns me because of my latest book, on characters' subjective points of view as "egocentric coordinates" in fiction. I did not use any of these examples, though, oddly enough. This may go to prove that the topic is in the air, everywhere, and of true importance, way beyond my personal, "egocentric" interests! o.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Fri Sep 3 13:52:17 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 09:52:17 -0400 Subject: Whorf and coordinates in the Bible In-Reply-To: <20100903090401.AFK07692@mstore-prod-2.pdc.uis.georgetown.edu> Message-ID: My apologies to the list: I meant to reply to Bradley Gorsky alone: he is my former student and much interested in linguistics as related to poetics. o.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From h.p.houtzagers at RUG.NL Fri Sep 3 14:00:53 2010 From: h.p.houtzagers at RUG.NL (H.P. Houtzagers) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 16:00:53 +0200 Subject: Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E and W In-Reply-To: <00ab01cb4b68$325319e0$96f94da0$@co.uk> Message-ID: The same holds for Dutch: it is exceptional to hear someone saying "at point so-and-so turn east". Peter Houtzagers Simon Beattie wrote: > I don't think that here in Britain we would naturally give directions using > points of the compass (although people might use compass points to help with > location, e.g. "I live 25 miles north-west of London"). However, we do use > them on signs: Northbound, Eastbound etc. on the London Underground, and > simply "The North" or "The South West" on motorway signs. I don't remember > seeing the latter usage anywhere else, though I'm sure someone will put me > right! > > Simon > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rrobin at GWU.EDU Fri Sep 3 14:19:10 2010 From: rrobin at GWU.EDU (Richard Robin) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 10:19:10 -0400 Subject: Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E and W In-Reply-To: <00ab01cb4b68$325319e0$96f94da0$@co.uk> Message-ID: Come to think of it, Russian *road signs *are rather sparse on compass directions, at least in the cities I have driven in or between (Moscow, SPb, Petrozavodsk, Arkgangelsk). (For those who do not drive in the US, nearly all numbered road markers, from the widest Interstate to a lowly country state route, usually have direction tags, e.g. I-95 North) The only time I remember seeing compass directions used is on the MKAD: МКАД - СЕВЕР, МКАД - ЮГ... which actually makes little sense, since it's a ring (albeit oval shaped, and at 109 km, about the same dimensions at the 103-km Atlanta Perimeter Road, I-285), and you're never going in one direction for long (in theory - although traffic may keep you in one place for hours). But for all the exits (and for the Petersburg KAD as well and intercity roads beyond), the directions are referenced by suburb and city names, e.g. ЦЕНТР vs. МУРМАНСК. Road markers are rare (like M10 / E95) and never include direction tags. Plus, identifying markers are totally non-existent for secondary roads; directions are often given by landmarks: Go about 10 minutes until you see the dacha development billboard, then turn right. The approach to Petrozavodsk from the only intercity road (Murmanskoe shosse) has two signs showing ЦЕНТР within a few hundred meters of each other. They both lead downtown, but one leads to a northern spur, the other to a southern spur. The signs don't give you a clue as to which is which. Of course in general American signs are in general more loquacious than Russian signs, which hew to established international symbolic standards. Russian signs convey in symbols not words things like No Left Turn, One Way, End Divided Highway (BTW, why are these apparent imperatives in American English?), etc. And some of our No Parking signs have so much verbiage on them that they resemble legal contracts. -Rich Robin -- Richard M. Robin Director Russian Language Program The George Washington University Washington, DC 20052 202-994-7081 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From xmas at UA.FM Thu Sep 2 23:15:10 2010 From: xmas at UA.FM (Maria Dmytriyeva) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 02:15:10 +0300 Subject: B 3ACTEHKE? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In a wider sense, it is just a prison, cf. царские застенки. застенок — узилище, острог, тюрьма, кутузка, каменный мешок, темница, камера пыток, каталажка (Источник: Словарь русских синонимов ) MD > Colleagues: > I just got a query from the manager of one of the Jewish genealogy > lists regarding a translation being done > of some archival material i Kaunas. The translator translated "v > zastenke" as "in the torture chamber" followed > by a place name. I could not find zastenok in online Dal', and of > course in my Ozhegov it seems to mean more or > less that. But the gentleman who sent the query and I are both sceptical. > I assume this is a 19th Century record, what could it be? Could it > have just meant something like "punishment cell" > in a prison? > Jules Levin > PS Don't let the "Cyrillic" on the subject line fool you. I cannot > write Cyrillic in eudora--it was cleverly made entirely > from the Latin keyboard. So please transliterate if you cite from a > Russian source. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- реклама ----------------------------------------------------------- Покупай хостинг от $3.45 Участвуй в розыгрыше подарков от www.hostpro.ua ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Fri Sep 3 15:09:55 2010 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 11:09:55 -0400 Subject: Russian Equivalent? In-Reply-To: <3171EF0C0146664DA703DE4D8DB912650266A35A@birch.evergreen.edu> Message-ID: Not as a cheer: Пан или пропал. Бежать так бежать. Sep 2, 2010, в 12:19 PM, Krafcik, Patricia написал(а): > Quick Question, Colleagues: > > My son's cross-country running friends at high school want to place > on their > T-shirts the Russian equivalent of this phrase: "Go big or go home!" > meaning > "Do it all the way or don't do it at all!" or something to this > effect. I've gotten > suggestions from friends, but our efforts thus far seem simply too > literate, > and not "slangy" enough. Is there some way to express this idea in > good Russian > slang? > > Thanks in advance for your suggestions. > Pat Krafcik > The Evergreen State College > krafcikp at evergreen.edu > Alina Israeli Associate Professor of Russian LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave. Washington DC 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Philippe.FRISON at COE.INT Fri Sep 3 15:47:06 2010 From: Philippe.FRISON at COE.INT (FRISON Philippe) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 17:47:06 +0200 Subject: B 3ACTEHKE? In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: As for "prisons", you might add the following terms (sorry for translating them only into French): �ҧ�ѧاߧѧ� �����ާ� (�� �����ܧӧ� �� �ߧѧ�ѧݧ� XVII ��.) prison de d��grisement (hist.) ������ ��. (�ҧѧ�ѧ� ���ڧݧ֧ߧߧ�ԧ� ��֧اڧާ� �C ���֧اߧ֧� �ߧѧ٧ӧѧߧڧ� ������) prison de camp (jur.) �������� (�էڧ��ڧ�ݧڧߧѧ�ߧ�� �ڧ٧�ݧ����) prison de colonie de r����ducation (pour mineurs) (jur.) �������� (�֧էڧߧ�� ���ާ֧�֧ߧڧ� �ܧѧާ֧�ߧ�ԧ� ��ڧ��) 1 quartier d��isolement disciplinaire (pour une dur��e maximale d��un an) ; 2 prison de camp (EPKT) (o�� les d��tenus sont plac��s sur d��cision administrative et non judiciaire comme dans les PKT) (jur.) ������ (�ڧ٧�ݧ���� �ӧ�֧ާ֧ߧߧ�ԧ� ���է֧�اѧߧڧ�) quartier / centre de d��tention temporaire (qui rel��vent du minist��re de l'Int��rieur - �� distinguer de la prison pr��ventive) (jur.) �٧� �ܧ�ݧ��֧� ����ӧ�ݧ�ܧ�� en d��tention (en camp ou en prison), derri��re les barreaux ; �ܧѧ���اߧѧ� �����ާ� bagne m., p��nitencier m., maison de correction �ܧ���ѧ� ��. prison f. (destin��e aux criminels dangereux et d��tenus r��calcitrants) (jur.) ������ (�ݧ�ܧѧݧ�ߧ�-�����ڧݧѧܧ�ڧ�֧�ڧ� ���ѧ����) "zone isol��e de pr��vention" (jusqu'en 1997 en Russie, prison int��rieure destin��e aux d��tenus jug��s r��calcitrants) ��֧�֧��ݧ�ߧѧ� �����ާ� prison d'��tape (jur.) ������ (���ާ֧�֧ߧڧ� �ܧѧާ֧�ߧ�ԧ� ��ڧ��) 1 quartier d'isolement disciplinaire (dans une prison, pour une dur��e maximale de six mois) ; 2 prison du camp (jur.) �������� (��ݧ֧է��ӧ֧ߧߧ�� �ڧ٧�ݧ���� ) ��. maison d'arr��t (rattach��e au minist��re de la justice) ; �������� (���֧�. �����ާ� �����. �ߧѧ٧ߧѧ�֧ߧڧ�) prison d'affectation sp��ciale (1937) (jur.) ��ԧ�ݧ�ӧߧѧ� �����ާ� prison pour droits communs ��֧ߧ��ѧ� ��. maison centrale (en Russie avant 1917, prison de bagne destin��e avant tout aux prisonniers politiques) (jur.) Philippe Frison (Strasbourg, France) -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Maria Dmytriyeva Sent: Friday 3 September 2010 01:15 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] B 3ACTEHKE? In a wider sense, it is just a prison, cf. ��ѧ��ܧڧ� �٧ѧ��֧ߧܧ�. �٧ѧ��֧ߧ�� �� ��٧ڧݧڧ��, �������, �����ާ�, �ܧ���٧ܧ�, �ܧѧާ֧ߧߧ�� �ާ֧���, ��֧ާߧڧ��, �ܧѧާ֧�� ������, �ܧѧ�ѧݧѧاܧ� (�������ߧڧ�: ���ݧ�ӧѧ�� �����ܧڧ� ��ڧߧ�ߧڧާ�� ) MD > Colleagues: > I just got a query from the manager of one of the Jewish genealogy > lists regarding a translation being done > of some archival material i Kaunas. The translator translated "v > zastenke" as "in the torture chamber" followed > by a place name. I could not find zastenok in online Dal', and of > course in my Ozhegov it seems to mean more or > less that. But the gentleman who sent the query and I are both sceptical. > I assume this is a 19th Century record, what could it be? Could it > have just meant something like "punishment cell" > in a prison? > Jules Levin > PS Don't let the "Cyrillic" on the subject line fool you. I cannot > write Cyrillic in eudora--it was cleverly made entirely > from the Latin keyboard. So please transliterate if you cite from a > Russian source. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- ��֧ܧݧѧާ� ----------------------------------------------------------- ����ܧ��ѧ� �����ڧߧ� ��� $3.45 ����ѧ��ӧ�� �� ���٧�ԧ���� ���էѧ�ܧ�� ��� www.hostpro.ua ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From oothappam at earthlink.net Fri Sep 3 15:56:27 2010 From: oothappam at earthlink.net (oothappam) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 08:56:27 -0700 Subject: 501 Russian Verbs Message-ID: Oh Stephanie,it's so funny to read all that.I just added that film to my Netflix queue! Nola -----Original Message----- >From: Stephanie Briggs >Sent: Sep 3, 2010 3:03 AM >To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] 501 Russian Verbs > >I'm reminded of the scene in Monty Python's "The Life of Brian", where Brian >gets a grammar lesson from a Centurion. > >[*Brian is writing graffiti on the palace wall. The Centurion catches him in >the act*] >*Centurion *: What's this, then? >"Romanes eunt domus"? People called Romanes, they go, the house? >*Brian *: It says, "Romans go home. " >*Centurion *: No it doesn't ! What's >the latin for "Roman"? Come on, come on ! >*Brian *: Er, "Romanus" ! >*Centurion *: Vocative plural of >"Romanus" is? >*Brian *: Er, er, "Romani" ! >*Centurion *: [*Writes "Romani" over >Brian's graffiti*] "Eunt"? What is "eunt"? Conjugate the verb, "to go" ! >*Brian *: Er, "Ire". Er, "eo", "is", >"it", "imus", "itis", "eunt". >*Centurion *: So, "eunt" is...? >*Brian *: Third person plural present >indicative, "they go". >*Centurion *: But, "Romans, go home" is >an order. So you must use...? >[*He twists Brian's ear*] >*Brian *: Aaagh ! The imperative ! >*Centurion *: Which is...? >*Brian *: Aaaagh ! Er, er, "i" ! >*Centurion *: How many Romans? >*Brian *: Aaaaagh ! Plural, plural, er, >"ite" ! >*Centurion *: [*Writes "ite"*] "Domus"? >Nominative? "Go home" is motion towards, isn't it? >*Brian *: Dative ! >[*the Centurion holds a sword to his throat*] >*Brian *: Aaagh ! Not the dative, not >the dative ! Er, er, accusative, "Domum" ! >*Centurion *: But "Domus" takes the >locative, which is...? >*Brian *: Er, "Domum" ! >*Centurion *: [*Writes "Domum"*] >Understand? Now, write it out a hundred times. >*Brian *: Yes sir. Thank you, sir. Hail >Caesar, sir. >*Centurion *: Hail Caesar ! And if it's >not done by sunrise, I'll cut your balls off. > >Funny thing was, when I saw this for the first time, I was pre-empting Brian >on the correct cases he should use ("Accusative! Dative!"). Yeah, I need a >hobby. Actually, I have one; I run my own Etsy knitting business. :) > >***************************** >~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs >http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ > >Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! >THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! >http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Fri Sep 3 15:51:35 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 11:51:35 -0400 Subject: Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E and W In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Richard Robin wrote: > Come to think of it, Russian *road signs *are rather sparse on compass > directions, at least in the cities I have driven in or between (Moscow, SPb, > Petrozavodsk, Arkgangelsk). (For those who do not drive in the US, nearly > all numbered road markers, from the widest Interstate to a lowly country > state route, usually have direction tags, e.g. I-95 North) The only time I > remember seeing compass directions used is on the MKAD: МКАД - СЕВЕР, МКАД > - ЮГ... which actually makes little sense, since it's a ring (albeit oval > shaped, and at 109 km, about the same dimensions at the 103-km Atlanta > Perimeter Road, I-285), and you're never going in one direction for long (in > theory - although traffic may keep you in one place for hours). But for all > the exits (and for the Petersburg KAD as well and intercity roads beyond), > the directions are referenced by suburb and city names, e.g. ЦЕНТР vs. > МУРМАНСК. Road markers are rare (like M10 / E95) and never include direction > tags. Plus, identifying markers are totally non-existent for secondary > roads; directions are often given by landmarks: Go about 10 minutes until > you see the dacha development billboard, then turn right. The approach to > Petrozavodsk from the only intercity road (Murmanskoe shosse) has two signs > showing ЦЕНТР within a few hundred meters of each other. They both lead > downtown, but one leads to a northern spur, the other to a southern spur. > The signs don't give you a clue as to which is which. > > Of course in general American signs are in general more loquacious than > Russian signs, which hew to established international symbolic standards. > Russian signs convey in symbols not words things like No Left Turn, One Way, > End Divided Highway (BTW, why are these apparent imperatives in American > English?), etc. And some of our No Parking signs have so much verbiage on > them that they resemble legal contracts. In my experience, many Americans are ignorant of NESW, so the GPS habit of giving directions in terms of your current heading makes sense. I happen to prefer knowing NESW, but I can't often get that information unless I go online or consult some other map. In the Philadelphia area, the original roads were built parallel or perpendicular to the Delaware river, so the entire grid is 40° off true north. Consequently, it makes little sense to speak of traveling "west" when you're actually traveling 40° north of west (310°).... In Manhattan, on the other hand, uptown/downtown is essentially north/south, and the east and west sides of the island are called that, so everyone is familiar with it and uses NESW on a daily basis. My favorite is Salt Lake City, which was built from scratch on a planned grid. Streets are named for their grid position, thus: "200 South" is a street running E/W 200 houses south of the main E/W axis. And a house 400 houses east of the center of town on the street called "200 South" would have the address "400 East 200 South." Beautiful! As for numbered routes, the directions specified on road signs correlate to the big picture, not to the road's direction at a particular point. So for example, US Route 202 runs mostly N/S along the eastern seaboard, but anyone who knows a bit of geography will immediately see that it's more like NE/SW, with frequent wrinkles along the way. But for convenience, the convention is to call its directions "north" and "south." Similarly, Pennsylvania route 611 runs roughly N/S from Philadelphia to the Poconos. As luck would have it, these two roads intersect and overlap briefly near Doylestown, PA: 611 N/S 202 N/S || || \\ // || || \\ <= 611 N/202 S // ================ // 202 N/611 S => \\ || || // \\ || || 202 N/S 611 N/S As you can see, the overlap bears the very peculiar designations "202 N/611 S" on the eastbound side and "611 N/202 S" in the westbound side. How anyone can understand that proceeding east on this highway will take you simultaneously north on 202 and south on 611 is left as an exercise to the reader. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Fri Sep 3 16:12:29 2010 From: j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 17:12:29 +0100 Subject: Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E and W In-Reply-To: <4C80FF95.4050404@rug.nl> Message-ID: I would go further than some members of the list and suggest that even in those British cities (such as Glasgow) that are, at least in part, built on a North-South/East-West grid it would be thought not so much strange as deliberately unhelpful to attempt to give street directions in terms of points of the compass (and it is generally considered advisable not to appear deliberately unhelpful when giving street directions in Glasgow). And thinking about Rostov-on-Don, which is also largely built on a similar grid pattern, reminds me that while London taxi-drivers notoriously never go south of the river and Glaswegians may live on the South Side [of the Clyde], Russian rivers tend to have a left and a right bank. I am not sure that all users of the London Underground find the Northbound etc. descriptions totally helpful. Those other European underground systems that I know of use a combination of line number (not used in London) and termini, perhaps because the individual lines tend not to follow compass directions in any meaningful way. As for the motorway sign 'The North', I find this unsatisfactory, as it implies a vast unmapped area inhabited by dragons and other strange creatures (which I suppose is what it is to most Londoners). I think that in Europe we prefer greater precision - except perhaps for the famously helpful French road sign that simply says 'Toutes directions'. John Dunn. Honorary Research Fellow SMLC (Slavonic Studies) University of Glasgow Via Carolina Coronedi Berti, 6 40137 Bologna Italy John.Dunn at glasgow.ac.uk johnanthony.dunn at fastwebnet.it ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of H.P. Houtzagers [h.p.houtzagers at RUG.NL] Sent: 03 September 2010 16:00 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E and W The same holds for Dutch: it is exceptional to hear someone saying "at point so-and-so turn east". Peter Houtzagers Simon Beattie wrote: > I don't think that here in Britain we would naturally give directions using > points of the compass (although people might use compass points to help with > location, e.g. "I live 25 miles north-west of London"). However, we do use > them on signs: Northbound, Eastbound etc. on the London Underground, and > simply "The North" or "The South West" on motorway signs. I don't remember > seeing the latter usage anywhere else, though I'm sure someone will put me > right! > > Simon > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kmharkness at GMAIL.COM Fri Sep 3 16:16:44 2010 From: kmharkness at GMAIL.COM (K M Harkness) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 12:16:44 -0400 Subject: Word for Mac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm late getting caught up here, but hopefully I can help. I've found that if you make sure to set the language of your document to Russian (or the part of the document that is in Russian, just select the paragraphs) under Tools > Language, I don't get the keyboard "bounce" problem in Word. You may still confuse Word if you are working in a multi-language document, but in my experience it's pretty stable and if not, a simple "splat" + spacebar works to change the keyboard, as has been pointed out. Hope that helps! Kristen Kristen M. Harkness, PhD Instructor, Division of Art College of Creative Arts West Virginia University Instructor, College of General Studies University of Pittsburgh kmharkness at gmail.com On Aug 25, 2010, at 12:14 PM, Aura Young wrote: > After all of this discussion about Macs, I'd love it if anyone could shed some light on my > problem: I have Microsoft Word for Mac (2004, version 11.5.6). Whenever I'm typing in > Russian and move my cursor, it automatically switches back to the Latin alphabet. Then I > have to go back to the little flag at the top of the screen and switch back to Russian. The IT > guys at school didn't have an answer for this problem, and I can't figure it out. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Fri Sep 3 16:31:21 2010 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 17:31:21 +0100 Subject: 501 Russian Verbs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The centurion was wrong - domum is correct but is accusative, not locative. Or is that the joke? Will On 03/09/2010 11:03, Stephanie Briggs wrote: > I'm reminded of the scene in Monty Python's "The Life of Brian", where Brian > gets a grammar lesson from a Centurion. > > [*Brian is writing graffiti on the palace wall. The Centurion catches him in > the act*] > *Centurion*: What's this, then? > "Romanes eunt domus"? People called Romanes, they go, the house? > *Brian*: It says, "Romans go home. " > *Centurion*: No it doesn't ! What's > the latin for "Roman"? Come on, come on ! > *Brian*: Er, "Romanus" ! > *Centurion*: Vocative plural of > "Romanus" is? > *Brian*: Er, er, "Romani" ! > *Centurion*: [*Writes "Romani" over > Brian's graffiti*] "Eunt"? What is "eunt"? Conjugate the verb, "to go" ! > *Brian*: Er, "Ire". Er, "eo", "is", > "it", "imus", "itis", "eunt". > *Centurion*: So, "eunt" is...? > *Brian*: Third person plural present > indicative, "they go". > *Centurion*: But, "Romans, go home" is > an order. So you must use...? > [*He twists Brian's ear*] > *Brian*: Aaagh ! The imperative ! > *Centurion*: Which is...? > *Brian*: Aaaagh ! Er, er, "i" ! > *Centurion*: How many Romans? > *Brian*: Aaaaagh ! Plural, plural, er, > "ite" ! > *Centurion*: [*Writes "ite"*] "Domus"? > Nominative? "Go home" is motion towards, isn't it? > *Brian*: Dative ! > [*the Centurion holds a sword to his throat*] > *Brian*: Aaagh ! Not the dative, not > the dative ! Er, er, accusative, "Domum" ! > *Centurion*: But "Domus" takes the > locative, which is...? > *Brian*: Er, "Domum" ! > *Centurion*: [*Writes "Domum"*] > Understand? Now, write it out a hundred times. > *Brian*: Yes sir. Thank you, sir. Hail > Caesar, sir. > *Centurion*: Hail Caesar ! And if it's > not done by sunrise, I'll cut your balls off. > > Funny thing was, when I saw this for the first time, I was pre-empting Brian > on the correct cases he should use ("Accusative! Dative!"). Yeah, I need a > hobby. Actually, I have one; I run my own Etsy knitting business. :) > > ***************************** > ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs > http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ > > Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! > THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! > http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Fri Sep 3 16:35:46 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 12:35:46 -0400 Subject: Word for Mac In-Reply-To: <24B018DF-2088-423A-940C-8778DE80D94B@gmail.com> Message-ID: K M Harkness wrote: > I'm late getting caught up here, but hopefully I can help. I've > found that if you make sure to set the language of your document to > Russian (or the part of the document that is in Russian, just select > the paragraphs) under Tools> Language, I don't get the keyboard > "bounce" problem in Word. > > You may still confuse Word if you are working in a multi-language > document, but in my experience it's pretty stable and if not, a > simple "splat" + spacebar works to change the keyboard, as has been > pointed out. On the Windows side, one of the first options I set when installing a new version of Word is to disable its automatic language detection "feature" (Tools | Language | Set Language | Detect language automatically). Then it will mark each chunk of text according to the keyboard in effect at the moment -- if you're using the Cyrillic keyboard, it treats the text as Russian, but if you're using the English keyboard, it treats it as English. HTH -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kbtrans at COX.NET Fri Sep 3 16:38:25 2010 From: kbtrans at COX.NET (Kim Braithwaite) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 09:38:25 -0700 Subject: Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E and W In-Reply-To: <4C811987.4050603@pbg-translations.com> Message-ID: A small addition to Paul's appreciation of Salt Lake City's grid system (a pattern that is repeated in dozens of towns all over the region). The peaks of the Wasatch Range rise up immediately to the east of the string of cities located along that front, making it very easy to be oriented NESW almost anywhere. When I moved to Tucson AZ, where the tallest mountain peaks rise up north of the town, my ingrained Wasatch orientation kept me confused for quite a while. Mr Kim Braithwaite, Translator Russian and Georgian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul B. Gallagher" Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 8:51 AM To: Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russians seem to avoid using N, S, E and W > Richard Robin wrote: > >> Come to think of it, Russian *road signs *are rather sparse on compass >> directions, at least in the cities I have driven in or between (Moscow, >> SPb, >> Petrozavodsk, Arkgangelsk). (For those who do not drive in the US, nearly >> all numbered road markers, from the widest Interstate to a lowly country >> state route, usually have direction tags, e.g. I-95 North) The only time >> I >> remember seeing compass directions used is on the MKAD: МКАД - СЕВЕР, >> МКАД >> - ЮГ... which actually makes little sense, since it's a ring (albeit oval >> shaped, and at 109 km, about the same dimensions at the 103-km Atlanta >> Perimeter Road, I-285), and you're never going in one direction for long >> (in >> theory - although traffic may keep you in one place for hours). But for >> all >> the exits (and for the Petersburg KAD as well and intercity roads >> beyond), >> the directions are referenced by suburb and city names, e.g. ЦЕНТР vs. >> МУРМАНСК. Road markers are rare (like M10 / E95) and never include >> direction >> tags. Plus, identifying markers are totally non-existent for secondary >> roads; directions are often given by landmarks: Go about 10 minutes >> until >> you see the dacha development billboard, then turn right. The approach to >> Petrozavodsk from the only intercity road (Murmanskoe shosse) has two >> signs >> showing ЦЕНТР within a few hundred meters of each other. They both lead >> downtown, but one leads to a northern spur, the other to a southern spur. >> The signs don't give you a clue as to which is which. >> >> Of course in general American signs are in general more loquacious than >> Russian signs, which hew to established international symbolic standards. >> Russian signs convey in symbols not words things like No Left Turn, One >> Way, >> End Divided Highway (BTW, why are these apparent imperatives in American >> English?), etc. And some of our No Parking signs have so much verbiage on >> them that they resemble legal contracts. > > In my experience, many Americans are ignorant of NESW, so the GPS habit of > giving directions in terms of your current heading makes sense. I happen > to prefer knowing NESW, but I can't often get that information unless I go > online or consult some other map. > > In the Philadelphia area, the original roads were built parallel or > perpendicular to the Delaware river, so the entire grid is 40° off true > north. Consequently, it makes little sense to speak of traveling "west" > when you're actually traveling 40° north of west (310°).... In Manhattan, > on the other hand, uptown/downtown is essentially north/south, and the > east and west sides of the island are called that, so everyone is familiar > with it and uses NESW on a daily basis. > > My favorite is Salt Lake City, which was built from scratch on a planned > grid. Streets are named for their grid position, thus: "200 South" is a > street running E/W 200 houses south of the main E/W axis. And a house 400 > houses east of the center of town on the street called "200 South" would > have the address "400 East 200 South." Beautiful! > > > As for numbered routes, the directions specified on road signs correlate > to the big picture, not to the road's direction at a particular point. So > for example, US Route 202 runs mostly N/S along the eastern seaboard, but > anyone who knows a bit of geography will immediately see that it's more > like NE/SW, with frequent wrinkles along the way. But for convenience, the > convention is to call its directions "north" and "south." Similarly, > Pennsylvania route 611 runs roughly N/S from Philadelphia to the Poconos. > > > > As luck would have it, these two roads intersect and overlap briefly near > Doylestown, PA: > > > 611 N/S 202 N/S > || || > \\ // > || || > \\ <= 611 N/202 S // > ================ > // 202 N/611 S => \\ > || || > // \\ > || || > 202 N/S 611 N/S > > As you can see, the overlap bears the very peculiar designations "202 > N/611 S" on the eastbound side and "611 N/202 S" in the westbound side. > How anyone can understand that proceeding east on this highway will take > you simultaneously north on 202 and south on 611 is left as an exercise to > the reader. > > -- > War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. > -- > Paul B. Gallagher > pbg translations, inc. > "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" > http://pbg-translations.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mlsvetka at YAHOO.COM Fri Sep 3 17:01:34 2010 From: mlsvetka at YAHOO.COM (Svetlana Malykhina) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 10:01:34 -0700 Subject: Russian Equivalent? In-Reply-To: <806441A0-F395-41BE-9386-190CEB4C1AD8@american.edu> Message-ID: Dear Patricia,   The following sport slogan is often used:   Со щитом или на щите   This laconic phrase originated from Spartan war-tradition: when Spartan men went to war, their women would give them their shields and wish them luck by saying “Come home with your shield or upon it,” meaning that true Spartans could only return to Sparta either victorious (with their shield in hand) or dead (carried upon it).   Svitlana  --- On Fri, 3/9/10, Alina Israeli wrote: From: Alina Israeli Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian Equivalent? To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Date: Friday, 3 September, 2010, 18:09 Not as a cheer: Пан или пропал. Бежать так бежать. Sep 2, 2010, в 12:19 PM, Krafcik, Patricia написал(а): > Quick Question, Colleagues: > > My son's cross-country running friends at high school want to place on their > T-shirts the Russian equivalent of this phrase: "Go big or go home!" meaning > "Do it all the way or don't do it at all!" or something to this effect. I've gotten > suggestions from friends, but our efforts thus far seem simply too literate, > and not "slangy" enough. Is there some way to express this idea in good Russian > slang? > > Thanks in advance for your suggestions. > Pat Krafcik > The Evergreen State College > krafcikp at evergreen.edu > Alina Israeli Associate Professor of Russian LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave. Washington DC 20016 (202) 885-2387     fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at:                    http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU Fri Sep 3 17:32:49 2010 From: mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU (Melissa Smith) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 13:32:49 -0400 Subject: Russian Equivalent? Message-ID: On 9/3/10 1:01 PM, Svetlana Malykhina wrote: > Dear Patricia, >   > The following sport slogan is often used: >   > Со щитом или на щите >   > This laconic phrase originated from Spartan war-tradition: when Spartan men went to war, their women would give them their shields and wish them luck by saying “Come home with your shield or upon it,” meaning that true Spartans could only return to Sparta either victorious (with their shield in hand) or dead (carried upon it). >   > Svitlana >  --- On Fri, 3/9/10, Alina Israeli wrote: > > > From: Alina Israeli > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian Equivalent? > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Date: Friday, 3 September, 2010, 18:09 > > > Not as a cheer: > > Пан или пропал. > Бежать так бежать. > > Sep 2, 2010, в 12:19 PM, Krafcik, Patricia написал(а): > > > Quick Question, Colleagues: > > > > My son's cross-country running friends at high school want to place on their > > T-shirts the Russian equivalent of this phrase: "Go big or go home!" meaning > > "Do it all the way or don't do it at all!" or something to this effect. I've gotten > > suggestions from friends, but our efforts thus far seem simply too literate, > > and not "slangy" enough. Is there some way to express this idea in good Russian > > slang? > > > > Thanks in advance for your suggestions. > > Pat Krafcik > > The Evergreen State College > > krafcikp at evergreen.edu > > > > Alina Israeli > Associate Professor of Russian > LFS, American University > 4400 Massachusetts Ave. > Washington DC 20016 > (202) 885-2387     fax (202) 885-1076 > aisrael at american.edu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >                    http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------ Melissa T. Smith, Professor Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures Youngstown State University Youngstown, OH 44555 Tel: (330)941-3462 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU Fri Sep 3 17:33:43 2010 From: mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU (Melissa Smith) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 13:33:43 -0400 Subject: Russian Equivalent? Message-ID: Those are dangerous sounds for an American football crowd! On 9/3/10 1:01 PM, Svetlana Malykhina wrote: > Dear Patricia, >   > The following sport slogan is often used: >   > Со щитом или на щите >   > This laconic phrase originated from Spartan war-tradition: when Spartan men went to war, their women would give them their shields and wish them luck by saying “Come home with your shield or upon it,” meaning that true Spartans could only return to Sparta either victorious (with their shield in hand) or dead (carried upon it). >   > Svitlana >  --- On Fri, 3/9/10, Alina Israeli wrote: > > > From: Alina Israeli > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian Equivalent? > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Date: Friday, 3 September, 2010, 18:09 > > > Not as a cheer: > > Пан или пропал. > Бежать так бежать. > > Sep 2, 2010, в 12:19 PM, Krafcik, Patricia написал(а): > > > Quick Question, Colleagues: > > > > My son's cross-country running friends at high school want to place on their > > T-shirts the Russian equivalent of this phrase: "Go big or go home!" meaning > > "Do it all the way or don't do it at all!" or something to this effect. I've gotten > > suggestions from friends, but our efforts thus far seem simply too literate, > > and not "slangy" enough. Is there some way to express this idea in good Russian > > slang? > > > > Thanks in advance for your suggestions. > > Pat Krafcik > > The Evergreen State College > > krafcikp at evergreen.edu > > > > Alina Israeli > Associate Professor of Russian > LFS, American University > 4400 Massachusetts Ave. > Washington DC 20016 > (202) 885-2387     fax (202) 885-1076 > aisrael at american.edu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >                    http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------ Melissa T. Smith, Professor Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures Youngstown State University Youngstown, OH 44555 Tel: (330)941-3462 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From oothappam at earthlink.net Fri Sep 3 17:39:27 2010 From: oothappam at earthlink.net (oothappam) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 13:39:27 -0400 Subject: 501 Russian Verbs Message-ID: I just found the clip on Youtube. Here's the segment- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbI-fDzUJXI Nola -----Original Message----- >From: William Ryan >Sent: Sep 3, 2010 12:31 PM >To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] 501 Russian Verbs > > The centurion was wrong - domum is correct but is accusative, not >locative. Or is that the joke? >Will > >On 03/09/2010 11:03, Stephanie Briggs wrote: >> I'm reminded of the scene in Monty Python's "The Life of Brian", where Brian >> gets a grammar lesson from a Centurion. >> >> [*Brian is writing graffiti on the palace wall. The Centurion catches him in >> the act*] >> *Centurion*: What's this, then? >> "Romanes eunt domus"? People called Romanes, they go, the house? >> *Brian*: It says, "Romans go home. " >> *Centurion*: No it doesn't ! What's >> the latin for "Roman"? Come on, come on ! >> *Brian*: Er, "Romanus" ! >> *Centurion*: Vocative plural of >> "Romanus" is? >> *Brian*: Er, er, "Romani" ! >> *Centurion*: [*Writes "Romani" over >> Brian's graffiti*] "Eunt"? What is "eunt"? Conjugate the verb, "to go" ! >> *Brian*: Er, "Ire". Er, "eo", "is", >> "it", "imus", "itis", "eunt". >> *Centurion*: So, "eunt" is...? >> *Brian*: Third person plural present >> indicative, "they go". >> *Centurion*: But, "Romans, go home" is >> an order. So you must use...? >> [*He twists Brian's ear*] >> *Brian*: Aaagh ! The imperative ! >> *Centurion*: Which is...? >> *Brian*: Aaaagh ! Er, er, "i" ! >> *Centurion*: How many Romans? >> *Brian*: Aaaaagh ! Plural, plural, er, >> "ite" ! >> *Centurion*: [*Writes "ite"*] "Domus"? >> Nominative? "Go home" is motion towards, isn't it? >> *Brian*: Dative ! >> [*the Centurion holds a sword to his throat*] >> *Brian*: Aaagh ! Not the dative, not >> the dative ! Er, er, accusative, "Domum" ! >> *Centurion*: But "Domus" takes the >> locative, which is...? >> *Brian*: Er, "Domum" ! >> *Centurion*: [*Writes "Domum"*] >> Understand? Now, write it out a hundred times. >> *Brian*: Yes sir. Thank you, sir. Hail >> Caesar, sir. >> *Centurion*: Hail Caesar ! And if it's >> not done by sunrise, I'll cut your balls off. >> >> Funny thing was, when I saw this for the first time, I was pre-empting Brian >> on the correct cases he should use ("Accusative! Dative!"). Yeah, I need a >> hobby. Actually, I have one; I run my own Etsy knitting business. :) >> >> ***************************** >> ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs >> http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ >> >> Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! >> THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! >> http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From KrafcikP at EVERGREEN.EDU Fri Sep 3 22:16:11 2010 From: KrafcikP at EVERGREEN.EDU (Krafcik, Patricia) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 15:16:11 -0700 Subject: Russian Equivalent? Message-ID: Thank you, Alina and Svitlana, for your suggestions! And yes, Melissa, references to shields and the dead on shields would be dangerous for an American football crowd. Fortunately, and somewhat amusing (I think) would be to apply that phrase to a cross-country team! Pat -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list on behalf of Melissa Smith Sent: Fri 9/3/2010 10:33 AM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian Equivalent? Those are dangerous sounds for an American football crowd! On 9/3/10 1:01 PM, Svetlana Malykhina wrote: > Dear Patricia, >   > The following sport slogan is often used: >   > ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? >   > This laconic phrase originated from Spartan war-tradition: when Spartan men went to war, their women would give them their shields and wish them luck by saying "Come home with your shield or upon it," meaning that true Spartans could only return to Sparta either victorious (with their shield in hand) or dead (carried upon it). >   > Svitlana >  --- On Fri, 3/9/10, Alina Israeli wrote: > > > From: Alina Israeli > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian Equivalent? > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Date: Friday, 3 September, 2010, 18:09 > > > Not as a cheer: > > ??? ??? ??????. > ?????? ??? ??????. > > Sep 2, 2010, ? 12:19 PM, Krafcik, Patricia ???????(?): > > > Quick Question, Colleagues: > > > > My son's cross-country running friends at high school want to place on their > > T-shirts the Russian equivalent of this phrase: "Go big or go home!" meaning > > "Do it all the way or don't do it at all!" or something to this effect. I've gotten > > suggestions from friends, but our efforts thus far seem simply too literate, > > and not "slangy" enough. Is there some way to express this idea in good Russian > > slang? > > > > Thanks in advance for your suggestions. > > Pat Krafcik > > The Evergreen State College > > krafcikp at evergreen.edu > > > > Alina Israeli > Associate Professor of Russian > LFS, American University > 4400 Massachusetts Ave. > Washington DC 20016 > (202) 885-2387     fax (202) 885-1076 > aisrael at american.edu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >                    http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------ Melissa T. Smith, Professor Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures Youngstown State University Youngstown, OH 44555 Tel: (330)941-3462 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From powelstock at BRANDEIS.EDU Sat Sep 4 02:15:49 2010 From: powelstock at BRANDEIS.EDU (David Powelstock) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 22:15:49 -0400 Subject: Russian Equivalent? In-Reply-To: <3171EF0C0146664DA703DE4D8DB912650266A375@birch.evergreen.edu> Message-ID: I think Melissa's concern was homophonic, rather than semantic.... David P. On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 6:16 PM, Krafcik, Patricia wrote: > Thank you, Alina and Svitlana, for your suggestions! And yes, Melissa, > references to shields and the dead on shields would be dangerous for > an American football crowd. Fortunately, and somewhat amusing (I > think) would be to apply that phrase to a cross-country team! > Pat > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From darancourlaferriere at COMCAST.NET Sat Sep 4 17:53:44 2010 From: darancourlaferriere at COMCAST.NET (Daniel Rancour-Laferriere) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 10:53:44 -0700 Subject: Coredemptrix Message-ID: Is anyone aware of a Russian equivalent for one of the (controversial) English designations of the Virgin Mary, namely, "coredemptrix" (or the related term "mediatrix")? Thank you. Daniel Rancour-Laferriere ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From gladney at ILLINOIS.EDU Sat Sep 4 18:37:06 2010 From: gladney at ILLINOIS.EDU (Frank Gladney) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 13:37:06 -0500 Subject: Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: <37CA5D79-A3F8-4AEE-9957-A900E10FE832@comcast.net> Message-ID: For mediatrix perhaps Sreznevskij's xodatainica. Frank Y. Gladney ---- Original message ---- >Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 10:53:44 -0700 >From: Daniel Rancour-Laferriere >Subject: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix >To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > >Is anyone aware of a Russian equivalent for one of the (controversial) English designations of the Virgin Mary, namely, "coredemptrix" (or the related term "mediatrix")? > >Thank you. > >Daniel Rancour-Laferriere > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From asured at VERIZON.NET Sat Sep 4 19:22:09 2010 From: asured at VERIZON.NET (Steve Marder) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 15:22:09 -0400 Subject: Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: <37CA5D79-A3F8-4AEE-9957-A900E10FE832@comcast.net> Message-ID: > Is anyone aware of a Russian equivalent for one of the (controversial) English > designations of the Virgin Mary, namely, "coredemptrix" (or the related term > "mediatrix")? > Thank you. > Daniel Rancour-Laferriere For "mediatrix" ("mediatress"), two sources I have give a combination of the following in varying order: Predstatel'nitsa, Posrednitsa , Zastupnitsa, Primiritel'nitsa ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Sat Sep 4 19:29:40 2010 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 15:29:40 -0400 Subject: Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This must be part of Мариология http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D1%8F Sep 4, 2010, в 3:22 PM, Steve Marder написал(а): > For "mediatrix" ("mediatress"), two sources I have give a > combination of the > following in varying order: > > Predstatel'nitsa, Posrednitsa , > Zastupnitsa, > Primiritel'nitsa > Alina Israeli Associate Professor of Russian LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave. Washington DC 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Sat Sep 4 20:41:13 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 21:41:13 +0100 Subject: Teffi - Skazochka - a leshii in a French forest Message-ID: Dear all, This is a story from the early 1920s. Grisha, a Russian émigré boy, has got lost in a French forest. He goes to sleep, then encounters what seems to be a leshii. Пригляделся Гриша - человечек сидит. Странный такой – голенький. [...] Волосы надо лбом двумя мохрами взбиты, губы толстые. Смотрит на Гришу и так весь от смеха внутри себя дрожит. Видеть невозможно, до того самому смешно делается. У Гриши так в горле и защекотало и ноги задрыгали. А человечек, не сводя с Гриши глаз, вдруг прижал к губам маленькую зеленую дудочку. I am totally confused by this sentence: “Videt’ nevozmozhno, do togo samomu smeshno delaetsya.” WHO can’t see WHAT? Does the “samomu” refer to Grisha or to the leshii? I imagine it refers to Grisha. If so, how should I understand the next sentence? Are the tickling in Grisha’s throat and his twitching legs intended as indications of him getting into a hysterical state? Also: the leshii’s hair is sticking up from his forehead, yes? In two tufts? Thanks, as always! R. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Sun Sep 5 01:15:19 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 21:15:19 -0400 Subject: Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: <37CA5D79-A3F8-4AEE-9957-A900E10FE832@comcast.net> Message-ID: Coredemptrix is purely RC. Mediatrix is Zastupnitsa (the intercessor) or Predstatel'nitsa. There are more poetic and liturgically common epithets (not as dogmatic but very common in addressing Her), where She is compared to the burning bush--containing God without being consumed by Him--the Red Sea--opening and closing for the salvation of Israel, without any traces; the Heavenly Door, the Ladder of Jakob, uniting earth to Heaven; orudie Spaseniia nashego (the instrument of our Salvation), etc. These liturgical texts are called... the Dogmatika (the last stichera of the Lord I cal upon Thee... in the Vespers, but actually hymns, not dogmatic texts--typically for Orthodox liturgical poetics. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Sun Sep 5 01:15:57 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 21:15:57 -0400 Subject: Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: <20100904133706.CIW86893@expms1.cites.uiuc.edu> Message-ID: xodataitsa, not xodatajnitsa. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rolf.fieguth at UNIFR.CH Sun Sep 5 12:20:12 2010 From: rolf.fieguth at UNIFR.CH (FIEGUTH Rolf) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 14:20:12 +0200 Subject: AW: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: <37CA5D79-A3F8-4AEE-9957-A900E10FE832@comcast.net> Message-ID: The correct Russian version of the exclusively Roman Catholic term of "coredemptrix" (quite a horror for other Christian denominations) is "soiskupitel'nica" (соискупительница). Best wishes, Rolf Fieguth ________________________________________ Von: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] im Auftrag von Daniel Rancour-Laferriere [darancourlaferriere at COMCAST.NET] Gesendet: Samstag, 4. September 2010 19:53 An: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Betreff: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix Is anyone aware of a Russian equivalent for one of the (controversial) English designations of the Virgin Mary, namely, "coredemptrix" (or the related term "mediatrix")? Thank you. Daniel Rancour-Laferriere ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Sun Sep 5 23:08:19 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 19:08:19 -0400 Subject: AW: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: <75D697C5ED56E3479777756D06384654BF5F582534@EXCHANGE1.unifr.ch> Message-ID: Rolph, you are quite wrong about "quite a horror for other Christian denominations", besides Roman Catholics. The Orthodox are not Roman Catholic but we are not horrified by the term--merely find it uselessly Thomist (or post-Thomist, but in any case, term-driven) for describing Her huge role in our redemption. In and of itself, the role of the Mother of God in Redemption is not at all a horror to the Orthodox--as the Orthodox Church is Apostolic, as much as the RC. Other denominations may consider this Apostolic nature of the two Churches (Eastern and Western) as perhaps a guide. At least it would be imprudent to dismiss their centuries-long belief as "a horror", for some of the following reasons. After all, the importance of the Mother of God for Redemption is precisely ecclesiastical: She IS the Church, the one who gave Christ His body and who has contained Him bodily the way the Church still does. She is the Temple of God, the Jewish Burning Bush, etc. So ecclesiological! ly! , she is as important for God's presence on earth as the Temple is, and was even for the Jews. But for the Orthodox, calling this co-redemption is about as unnecessary and excessively rationalistic as calling the Church it/herself a Coredemptrix. For the difference between the Catholics and the Orthodox, this argument amounts not to thinking about Her differently but to a difference in attitudes to definitions themselves. If I were you, Rolph, I would think twice before calling the veneration of the Mother of God, the One who gave Him flesh and suffered horrible pains when His flesh suffered, a silly act, let alone a horror. If, of course, you consider the Divine Incarnation itself unacceptable (as the Jewish faith does, not recognizing Jesus as God incarnate), then I would understand why you would feel horrified. But if you happen to consider yourself a Christian, I would at least try to understand why both Apostolic Churches venerate Her as much as we do--or, in other word! s,! what this veneration has to do with OUR belief in God becoming flesh and dwelling among us, as the Apostle of Love put it. In any case, I am humbly asking you to abstain from offending those who happen to venerate the mother of God for giving Him flesh and containing Him the way the Temple does--Roman Catholic OR Christian Orthodox. Respectfully, o.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU Sun Sep 5 23:44:03 2010 From: hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU (Hugh McLean) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 16:44:03 -0700 Subject: Teffi - Skazochka - a leshii in a French forest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Robert Chandler wrote: > Dear all, > > This is a story from the early 1920s. Grisha, a Russian émigré boy, has got > lost in a French forest. He goes to sleep, then encounters what seems to be > a leshii. > > Пригляделся Гриша - человечек сидит. > Странный такой – голенький. [...] Волосы надо лбом двумя мохрами > взбиты, губы толстые. Смотрит на Гришу и так весь от смеха внутри себя > дрожит. Видеть невозможно, до того самому смешно делается. У Гриши так в > горле и защекотало и ноги задрыгали. > А человечек, не сводя с Гриши глаз, вдруг прижал к губам маленькую > зеленую дудочку. > > I am totally confused by this sentence: “Videt’ nevozmozhno, do togo samomu > smeshno delaetsya.” WHO can’t see WHAT? Does the “samomu” refer to Grisha > or to the leshii? I imagine it refers to Grisha. If so, how should I > understand the next sentence? Are the tickling in Grisha’s throat and his > twitching legs intended as indications of him getting into a hysterical > state? > > Also: the leshii’s hair is sticking up from his forehead, yes? In two > tufts? > > Thanks, as always! > > R. > I think the leshii is shaking with laughter, and the boy, observing him, also is overcome with mirth, so much so that his eyes shut. To say that his condition should be deemed "hysterical" seems going pretty far, but I don't know the rest of the story. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From greniers at GEORGETOWN.EDU Mon Sep 6 01:31:24 2010 From: greniers at GEORGETOWN.EDU (greniers at GEORGETOWN.EDU) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 21:31:24 -0400 Subject: Teffi - Skazochka - a leshii in a French forest In-Reply-To: <4C842B43.80508@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: Видеть невозможно, до того самому смешно делается. Dear Robert, I agree with Hugh McLean that the above sentence refers to the boy, but I don't think "videt' nevozmozhno" means that he literally shuts his eyes. It's just means "nevozmozhno videt' bez smekha". I also agree that У Гриши так в > горле и защекотало и ноги задрыгали --probably shows how Grisha can't help himself from laughing and shaking. Like Hugh, I cannot put a psychiatric diagnosis (like 'hysteria') on it. Best, Svetlana ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Mon Sep 6 04:25:39 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 05:25:39 +0100 Subject: Teffi - Skazochka - a leshii in a French forest In-Reply-To: <20100905213124.AFF22648@mstore-prod-1.pdc.uis.georgetown.edu> Message-ID: Thanks very much, Hugh and Sveta and others offline! I think that in England we may use the word hysteria/hysterical more casually than in the USA. In a context like this, I don't myself hear it as a pychiatric diagnosis. I certainly did not intend it as such. But I still don't quite know what to do with this sentence: Волосы надо лбом двумя мохрами взбиты, губы толстые. At present I have ' He had thick lips and two tufts of hair sticking up over his forehead.' OR He had thick lips and two forelocks above his forehead.' Do these seem ok? Offline, I have received this helpful pointer: У Тэффи это, скорей всего, контаминация. http://etymolog.ruslang.ru/vinogradov.php?id=mohri&vol=1 Ср. мохрастый - вихрастый у современников http://esenin.niv.ru/esenin/text/yar1.htm http://www.chelsea.com.ua/forum/viewtopic.php?p=23350 Best, Robert > Видеть невозможно, до того самому смешно делается. > > Dear Robert, > > I agree with Hugh McLean that the above sentence refers to the boy, but I > don't think "videt' nevozmozhno" means that he literally shuts his eyes. It's > just means "nevozmozhno videt' bez smekha". I also agree that У Гриши так в >> горле и защекотало и ноги задрыгали --probably shows how Grisha can't help >> himself from laughing and shaking. Like Hugh, I cannot put a psychiatric >> diagnosis (like 'hysteria') on it. > > Best, > Svetlana > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From elena.ostrovskaya at GMAIL.COM Mon Sep 6 07:37:28 2010 From: elena.ostrovskaya at GMAIL.COM (Elena Ostrovskaya) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 11:37:28 +0400 Subject: Teffi - Skazochka - a leshii in a French forest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Robert, I think technically it's your first version, his hair was sticking out in two tufts, just the original is very much along common spoken language lines in terms of word order and vocabulary. You'll definitely have noticed that yourself, just to be sure. As for the seeing, I think it might be used instead of 'look' : he was so funny you just couldn't look at him without bursting with laughter and yes, those tickling throat and twitching legs are part of that laughter. And come to think of it, 'twitch' per se has some neurologic sound that is not part of дрыгать, but that may easily be the idiosyncrasy of my Russian ear. For what it may be worth, Elena Ostrovskaya. 2010/9/6 Robert Chandler > Thanks very much, Hugh and Sveta and others offline! > > I think that in England we may use the word hysteria/hysterical more > casually than in the USA. In a context like this, I don't myself hear it > as > a pychiatric diagnosis. I certainly did not intend it as such. > > But I still don't quite know what to do with this sentence: > Волосы надо лбом двумя мохрами взбиты, губы толстые. > > At present I have ' He had thick lips and two tufts of hair sticking up > over > his forehead.' > OR > He had thick lips and two forelocks above his forehead.' > Do these seem ok? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK Mon Sep 6 08:09:54 2010 From: Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK (Alexandra Smith) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 09:09:54 +0100 Subject: Teffi - Skazochka - a leshii in a French forest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Robert, I totally agree with Svetlana's comment that the phrase "videt' nevozmozhno" suggests that one can't look at this spirit (leshij) without laughter. It implies that he makes others laugh and his laughter is infectious. I think that your description of the boy as being somewhat hysterical is not out of place. Julia Kristeva points out that children often laugh when they are frightened. In her book "Desire in language: a semiotic approach to literature and art" (Oxford, 1980) Kristeva says: “During the period of indistinction between ‘same’ and ‘other’, infant and mother, as well as between ‘subject’ and ‘object’, while no space has yet been delineated (this will happen with and after the mirror stage-birth of the sign), the semiotic chora that arrests and absorbs the motility of the anaclitic facilitations relieves and produces laughter” (Kristeva 1980, 284). Kristeva points to the fact that children lack a sense of humour, but they easily laugh “when motor tension is linked to vision (a caricature is a visualization of bodily distortion, of an extreme, exaggerated movement, or of an unmastered movement; when a child’s body is too rapidly set in motion by the adult […]; when a sudden stop follows a movement” (ibid.). As for the description of Teffi's leshii, his image reminds me of Vrubel's portrayal of Pan. You could see Vrubel's image here: http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enc_pictures/638/Врубель The image of Pan is related to the two images found in Roman mythology: Favn and Sylvan (Silvan). The latter is often presented in mythology as a spirit of the wood. All best, Sasha Smith -------------------------------------------- Alexandra Smith (PhD, University of London) Reader in Russian Studies Department of European Languages and Cultures School of Languages, Literatures and Cultures The University of Edinburgh David Hume Tower George Square Edinburgh EH8 9JX UK tel. +44-(0)131-6511381 fax: +44- (0)131 -651 -1482 e-mail: Alexandra.Smith at ed.ac.uk -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Mon Sep 6 10:56:18 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 06:56:18 -0400 Subject: Skazki In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Robert (Chandler), dear all, Robert, are you including any fairy-tales by Kodrianskaia ("Natalie Codray"), remizov's biographer but an excellent writer of fairy-tales in her own right? I admire her very much. Was fortunate enough to once write on her in the Encyclopedia of russian Women Writers, which gave me an opportunity to read all of her (with the illustrations of Natalya [also!] Goncharova). o ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Mon Sep 6 11:16:21 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 12:16:21 +0100 Subject: Skazki In-Reply-To: <20100906065618.AFR28192@mstore-prod-2.pdc.uis.georgetown.edu> Message-ID: Dear Olga and all, I had decided against Kodryanskaya, but I may be open to persuasion, particularly if you name individual stories you especially love. At present the only avtorskie skazki I am including are those by Pushkin, Teffi, Bazhov and Platonov. Everything else will be narodnye skazki from Afanasyev, Khudyakov, Onchukov, Ozarovskaya, Karnaukhova, etc. And I have already found so much wonderful material in these collections that I am reluctant to sacrifice it in order to include more avtorskie skazki. I had, until recently, been meaning to include Shergin, but - for all the liveliness of his language - I don't feel he shares Platonov's or Bazhov's ability to penetrate into the heart of traditional skazki and somehow to open them up, to reveal meanings that were already present but only implicity. All the best, Robert > Dear Robert (Chandler), dear all, > Robert, are you including any fairy-tales by Kodrianskaia ("Natalie Codray"), > remizov's biographer but an excellent writer of fairy-tales in her own right? > I admire her very much. Was fortunate enough to once write on her in the > Encyclopedia of russian Women Writers, which gave me an opportunity to read > all of her (with the illustrations of Natalya [also!] Goncharova). > o > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From A.Shafarenko at HERTS.AC.UK Mon Sep 6 11:55:31 2010 From: A.Shafarenko at HERTS.AC.UK (Alex Shafarenko) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 06:55:31 -0500 Subject: skazka Message-ID: Robert Chandler wrote: > Dear all, > This is a story from the early 1920s. Grisha, a Russian émigré boy, has got > lost in a French forest. He goes to sleep, then encounters what seems to be > a leshii. > Пригляделся Гриша - чел&#1086;вечек сидит. > Странный такой – голень&#1082;ий. [...] Волосы надо лбом двумя мохрами > взбиты, &#1075;убы толстые. См&#1086;трит на Гришу и так весь от смеха внутри себя > дрожит. &#1042;идеть невозмо&#1078;но, до того само&#1084;у смешно делае&#1090;ся. У Гриши так в горле и защекот&#1072;ло и ноги задры&#1075;али. > А челов&#1077;чек, не сводя с Гриши глаз, вдруг прижал к губам маленькую зеленую дудочк&#1091;. Robert, here "videt' nevozmozhno..." means "one cannot look (without succumbing to uncontrollable laughter)...", not "it is impossible to see". This sounds archaic to me although examples can be found in today's parlance: nelzya videt' (as opposed to smotret') bez sodroganiya, etc. are completely kosher usages, if only a touch highbrow. > Also: the leshii’s hair is sticking up from his forehead, yes? In two tufts? Yes, indeed. Two tufts of hair are whipped up (referring to the action of a comb that resembles the way egg yolks are whipped up with a fork) above his forehead. Cheers, Alex University of Hertfordshire England, UK. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From edseelangs at GMAIL.COM Mon Sep 6 18:20:12 2010 From: edseelangs at GMAIL.COM (Edward Dumanis) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 14:20:12 -0400 Subject: MOROZKO (and a SECOND question!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 1. Turning verbs are standard verbs associated with work: cf. with idioms "крутиться (вертеться) как белка в колесе" (to be very busy) and "чуть не так повернёшься" (just make something not quite right), and with contemporary slang meaning of the verb "крутиться" as to do different odd works. I'd prefer "Do things nimbly enough - you get beaten. Do things not enough nimbly - you get beaten. Do things just right - and you still get beaten." 2. I think that "sinful soul" sounds in English much stronger than the corresponding Russian words where it formed a stable pair for an everyday usage. So, I'd drop "sinful" in translation. Also, I think that the idea here is not in the soul going to God but rather in the soul leaving her body. I would say, "God must have sent you to TAKE my soul." Regards, Edward Dumanis 2010/9/2 Robert Chandler : > Dear all, > > My thanks to everyone who has responded. I am, however, still not quite sure > what the 'turning' verbs really mean. To keep the idea of turning or > twisting will be confusing in English. Does the following seem acceptable? > > "Once upon a time there was a widower who had taken a second wife. He had a > daughter of his own, and his wife had a daughter too. Well, everyone knows > what it's like to live with a stepmother. Do too much - you get beaten. Do > too little - you get beaten. Do things just right - and you still get > beaten." > > Or would it be better to have something like "Do things too quickly - you > get beaten. Do things too slowly - you get beaten. Do things just right - > and you still get beaten." > > And my second question is about the girl's first words to Moroz in Afanasyev > 96: > <<Добро пожаловать, Мороз; знать, бог тебя принес по мою душу грешную>>. > Is the following correct? "God has brought you here to FETCH my sinful > soul." Guterman has her say, "God must have sent you to SAVE my sinful > soul." But this would be presumptuous on her part, wouldn't it? > > All the best, > > Robert > >> I understand it as turn over/turn too far, turn not far enough. >> >> I might take some liberty and say: >> >> twist too far -- you get hit, not enough -- you get hit, and a whack in >> good time as well. >> >> Best regards, >> Stuart Goldberg >> >> >> On 9/2/2010 9:17 AM, Robert Chandler wrote: >>> Dear all, >>> >>> This is from the version of the skazka collected by Karnaukhova: >>> >>> У деда была доцка и у бабы была доцка. Ну, ланно. Вси знают, как за >>> мацехой жить: перевернешься - бита, и не довернешься - бита, и в пору - >>> бита. >>> >>> Can someone help me with перевернешься and довернешься, which I don't >>> understand at all? >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Robert >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >>> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >>> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ameliede at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Sep 7 00:17:13 2010 From: ameliede at EARTHLINK.NET (J F Levin) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 17:17:13 -0700 Subject: another genealogy puzzle Message-ID: From a list of taxpayers, c. 1900, with professions, appears this: sasovoy master What is it? Jules Levin ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From asured at VERIZON.NET Tue Sep 7 00:28:45 2010 From: asured at VERIZON.NET (Steve Marder) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 20:28:45 -0400 Subject: another genealogy puzzle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > From a list of taxpayers, c. 1900, with professions, appears this: > sasovoy master > What is it? Misprint for "chasovoy master"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ameliede at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Sep 7 00:39:03 2010 From: ameliede at EARTHLINK.NET (J F Levin) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 17:39:03 -0700 Subject: another genealogy puzzle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 05:28 PM 9/6/2010, you wrote: > > From a list of taxpayers, c. 1900, with professions, appears this: > > sasovoy master > > What is it? > >Misprint for "chasovoy master"? Wow! That's good. And it WAS a "Jewish" trade. Jules Levin ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From darancourlaferriere at COMCAST.NET Mon Sep 6 23:51:18 2010 From: darancourlaferriere at COMCAST.NET (Daniel Rancour-Laferriere) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 16:51:18 -0700 Subject: AW: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: <75D697C5ED56E3479777756D06384654BF5F582534@EXCHANGE1.unifr.ch> Message-ID: Dear Rolf Fieguth, Thank you (and thanks to all who replied to my message). I guessed as much, but I wanted to be sure by consulting Slavic specialists. A footnote in the book I am currently writing about the posthumous fate of Miriam/Mariam of Nazareth currently reads: > The Latin coredemptrix (conredemptrix, corredemptrix) is normally rendered as corédemptrice (French), corredentora (Spanish), corredentrice (Italian), Miterlöserin (German). In the Orthodox East the concept of a coredeemer is generally absent (Russian соискупительница [soiskupitel’nitsa] is a somewhat artificial-sounding rendition of the Roman Catholic mariological term), which is not to deny that Mary is a very significant and powerful deity for Orthodox believers. Useful scholarly and theological sources on the corredemption by Mary include: Druwé 1949; Laurentin 1951 (a valuable historical survey); Alastruey 1963-1964 (1952), vol. II, 138-152; Graef 2009 (1963-1965), 371-378, 396-397; entry on “Redemption” in O’Carroll 2000 (1982), 305-309; Miravalle 1996; Calkins 1996; Hauke 2007. Any corrections are welcome. Thank you, Daniel R-L On Sep 5, 2010, at 5:20 AM, FIEGUTH Rolf wrote: The correct Russian version of the exclusively Roman Catholic term of "coredemptrix" (quite a horror for other Christian denominations) is "soiskupitel'nica" (соискупительница). Best wishes, Rolf Fieguth ________________________________________ Von: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] im Auftrag von Daniel Rancour-Laferriere [darancourlaferriere at COMCAST.NET] Gesendet: Samstag, 4. September 2010 19:53 An: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Betreff: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix Is anyone aware of a Russian equivalent for one of the (controversial) English designations of the Virgin Mary, namely, "coredemptrix" (or the related term "mediatrix")? Thank you. Daniel Rancour-Laferriere ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Tue Sep 7 02:30:21 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 22:30:21 -0400 Subject: AW: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: <417F92C6-BF63-4CB7-898A-094AE0248837@comcast.net> Message-ID: Mary is NOT a deity, at least not for Orthodox or roman Catholic believers. Daniel, if you write such a thing, it is like claiming that Russians' reverence for Pushkin proves they [ we believe he is a god. A nice metaphor but not true literally. Not all veneration is deifying. Certainly not the veneration of the Mother of God in the eyes of those who venerate Her. Isn't it logical that they should be consulted on what they believe? If you write that She is "an important deity" for the Orthodox, be prepared for the whole publication you are contributing to to be compromised by such a statement. perhaps there is other compromising evidence in your book but I hope not so. It is amazing how the same people who uphold fairly high standards for their own fields of scholarship say all kinds of nonsense about religion and theology! There are things to know about theological matters, and if you don't know them, it is prudent not to talk about them--if only to uphold your own intellec! tu! al reputation. Respectfully, o.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From russell-valentino at UIOWA.EDU Tue Sep 7 02:45:53 2010 From: russell-valentino at UIOWA.EDU (Valentino, Russell) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 21:45:53 -0500 Subject: AW: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: <20100906223021.AFR45051@mstore-prod-2.pdc.uis.georgetown.edu> Message-ID: Yes, Mary is not *the* deity, which is part of the historical problem for believers in claiming that she can be a co-redeemer of some sort. Raising her to the level of the deity veers into heresy, which is what the phrase in Daniel's draft text sounds like. "An important holy figure," or "venerated figure," or something similar would express enough, it seems to me, without the potential heretical undertones. Russell Valentino -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Olga Meerson Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 9:30 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] AW: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix Mary is NOT a deity, at least not for Orthodox or roman Catholic believers. Daniel, if you write such a thing, it is like claiming that Russians' reverence for Pushkin proves they [ we believe he is a god. A nice metaphor but not true literally. Not all veneration is deifying. Certainly not the veneration of the Mother of God in the eyes of those who venerate Her. Isn't it logical that they should be consulted on what they believe? If you write that She is "an important deity" for the Orthodox, be prepared for the whole publication you are contributing to to be compromised by such a statement. perhaps there is other compromising evidence in your book but I hope not so. It is amazing how the same people who uphold fairly high standards for their own fields of scholarship say all kinds of nonsense about religion and theology! There are things to know about theological matters, and if you don't know them, it is prudent not to talk about them--if only to uphold your own intellec! tu! al reputation. Respectfully, o.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From nataliek at UALBERTA.CA Tue Sep 7 02:56:05 2010 From: nataliek at UALBERTA.CA (nataliek at UALBERTA.CA) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 20:56:05 -0600 Subject: Teffi - Skazochka - a leshii in a French forest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Robert and others, At the risk of imposing folklore concepts on literature ... Eye contact is a way of allowing the other to gain access to the self. So - looking on something that you should not look at, or at a being from the other world, gives that being or that something access to you. Gogol used this concept in Vii. When Khoma Brut looks at Vii, and only then, does the being gain the ability to attack him. This looking and not looking appears in a number of legends, including a story about devils called the all-seeing eye. Laughter can be a form of attack of the supernatural upon the human. This is what rusalki supposedly do to people, esp. men. That is, they make them laugh to the point that they drown. Of course a human whose has died a premature and thus unnatural death must join the world of the spirits. In the case here, it is Grisha looking at - or trying not to look at - the leshii. And he is threatened with laughter. Should he succumb, he would be in mortal danger. This laughter is not hysteria. But it is dangerous. Natalie K. Quoting "Robert Chandler" : > Dear all, > > This is a story from the early 1920s. Grisha, a Russian émigré boy, has got > lost in a French forest. He goes to sleep, then encounters what seems to be > a leshii. > > ??????????? ????? - ????????? ?????. > ???????? ????? ? ?????????. [...] ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??????? > ??????, ???? ???????. ??????? ?? ????? ? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ???? > ??????. ?????? ??????????, ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ????????. ? ????? ??? ? > ????? ? ?????????? ? ???? ?????????. > ? ?????????, ?? ????? ? ????? ????, ????? ?????? ? ????? ????????? > ??????? ???????. > > I am totally confused by this sentence: ?Videt? nevozmozhno, do togo samomu > smeshno delaetsya.? WHO can?t see WHAT? Does the ?samomu? refer to Grisha > or to the leshii? I imagine it refers to Grisha. If so, how should I > understand the next sentence? Are the tickling in Grisha?s throat and his > twitching legs intended as indications of him getting into a hysterical > state? > > Also: the leshii?s hair is sticking up from his forehead, yes? In two > tufts? > > Thanks, as always! > > R. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Natalie Kononenko Kule Chair of Ukrainian Ethnography Editor, Folklorica University of Alberta Modern Languages and Cultural Studies 200 Arts Building Edmonton, Alberta, Canada T6G 2E6 Phone: 780-492-6810 Web: http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/uvp/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Tue Sep 7 04:34:53 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 05:34:53 +0100 Subject: Teffi - Skazochka - a leshii in a French forest In-Reply-To: <20100906205605.31184mdnjlajetyc@webmail.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: Dear Natalie, This is very interesting indeed. Teffi's own favourite among her many collections of short stories was VED'MA (1936), and each story in this book is devoted to a particular folkore creature: the ruskalka, the leshii, the domovoi... Her interest in folklore was very deep indeed, and you certainly do not need to worry about 'imposing folklore concepts on literature'! THANK YOU! R. > Dear Robert and others, > > At the risk of imposing folklore concepts on literature ... > > Eye contact is a way of allowing the other to gain access to the self. > So - looking on something that you should not look at, or at a being > from the other world, gives that being or that something access to > you. Gogol used this concept in Vii. When Khoma Brut looks at Vii, > and only then, does the being gain the ability to attack him. This > looking and not looking appears in a number of legends, including a > story about devils called the all-seeing eye. > > Laughter can be a form of attack of the supernatural upon the human. > This is what rusalki supposedly do to people, esp. men. That is, they > make them laugh to the point that they drown. Of course a human whose > has died a premature and thus unnatural death must join the world of > the spirits. > > In the case here, it is Grisha looking at - or trying not to look at - > the leshii. And he is threatened with laughter. Should he succumb, > he would be in mortal danger. This laughter is not hysteria. But it > is dangerous. > > Natalie K. > > Quoting "Robert Chandler" : > >> Dear all, >> >> This is a story from the early 1920s. Grisha, a Russian émigré boy, has got >> lost in a French forest. He goes to sleep, then encounters what seems to be >> a leshii. >> >> ??????????? ????? - ????????? ?????. >> ???????? ????? ? ?????????. [...] ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??????? >> ??????, ???? ???????. ??????? ?? ????? ? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ???? >> ??????. ?????? ??????????, ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ????????. ? ????? ??? ? >> ????? ? ?????????? ? ???? ?????????. >> ? ?????????, ?? ????? ? ????? ????, ????? ?????? ? ????? ????????? >> ??????? ???????. >> >> I am totally confused by this sentence: ?Videt? nevozmozhno, do togo samomu >> smeshno delaetsya.? WHO can?t see WHAT? Does the ?samomu? refer to Grisha >> or to the leshii? I imagine it refers to Grisha. If so, how should I >> understand the next sentence? Are the tickling in Grisha?s throat and his >> twitching legs intended as indications of him getting into a hysterical >> state? >> >> Also: the leshii?s hair is sticking up from his forehead, yes? In two >> tufts? >> >> Thanks, as always! >> >> R. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > > > > Natalie Kononenko > Kule Chair of Ukrainian Ethnography > Editor, Folklorica > University of Alberta > Modern Languages and Cultural Studies > 200 Arts Building > Edmonton, Alberta, Canada T6G 2E6 > Phone: 780-492-6810 > Web: http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/uvp/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ameliede at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Sep 7 07:08:58 2010 From: ameliede at EARTHLINK.NET (J F Levin) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 00:08:58 -0700 Subject: Another translation question Message-ID: In the Pamyatnaya knizhka Kovenskago guberniya 1861, in the lists of offices of various towns, they each seem to have a "kvartirnaya komissiya". Since I don't think this is just an "apartment commission", I wonder if it was something like a "quartering komission", perhaps making recommendations to the army regarding appropriate housing for military? Jules Levin Los Angeles ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From elena.ostrovskaya at GMAIL.COM Tue Sep 7 07:38:22 2010 From: elena.ostrovskaya at GMAIL.COM (Elena Ostrovskaya) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 11:38:22 +0400 Subject: Another translation question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Right, that's a committee (?) for quartering of the military. You can see it in Alexander Weltman's novel (1846), for example: - Поручик Дмитрицкий; вот не допрошусь, где квартирная комиссия: заготовить надо квартиру его благородию. http://az.lib.ru/w/welxtman_a_f/text_0220.shtml You can check it for a wider context. Elena Ostrovskaya On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 11:08 AM, J F Levin wrote: > In the Pamyatnaya knizhka Kovenskago guberniya 1861, in the lists of > offices of various towns, they each seem to have > a "kvartirnaya komissiya". Since I don't think this is just an "apartment > commission", I wonder if it was something like > a "quartering komission", perhaps making recommendations to the army > regarding appropriate housing for military? > Jules Levin > Los Angeles > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rolf.fieguth at UNIFR.CH Tue Sep 7 08:26:15 2010 From: rolf.fieguth at UNIFR.CH (FIEGUTH Rolf) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 10:26:15 +0200 Subject: AW: [SEELANGS] AW: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: <20100906223021.AFR45051@mstore-prod-2.pdc.uis.georgetown.edu> Message-ID: Dear Olga, you are quite right in stating that Mary cannot be a deity for Christian believers, even for Her most ardent and deepest venerators. But it is precisely for this very reason that "coredemptrix" is an inacceptable concept and term outside the Roman Catholic Church, since it puts Mary on the same level as Jesus Christ. Best wishes to you and Daniel, Rolf Fieguth ________________________________________ Von: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] im Auftrag von Olga Meerson [meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU] Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. September 2010 04:30 An: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Betreff: Re: [SEELANGS] AW: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix Mary is NOT a deity, at least not for Orthodox or roman Catholic believers. Daniel, if you write such a thing, it is like claiming that Russians' reverence for Pushkin proves they [ we believe he is a god. A nice metaphor but not true literally. Not all veneration is deifying. Certainly not the veneration of the Mother of God in the eyes of those who venerate Her. Isn't it logical that they should be consulted on what they believe? If you write that She is "an important deity" for the Orthodox, be prepared for the whole publication you are contributing to to be compromised by such a statement. perhaps there is other compromising evidence in your book but I hope not so. It is amazing how the same people who uphold fairly high standards for their own fields of scholarship say all kinds of nonsense about religion and theology! There are things to know about theological matters, and if you don't know them, it is prudent not to talk about them--if only to uphold your own intellec! tu! al reputation. Respectfully, o.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Tue Sep 7 11:50:46 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 07:50:46 -0400 Subject: AW: [SEELANGS] AW: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: <75D697C5ED56E3479777756D06384654BF5F582536@EXCHANGE1.unifr.ch> Message-ID: Rolph, you are absolutely right, if calling Mary a coredemptrix and believing She is a deity is the same thing. But it is precisely in attitude to terms that the Orthodox and the RC differ so much. The word seems merely silly to the Orthodox while to the "other Christian denominations" it may sound like an abomination--because these other denominations have inherited RC attitude to definitions and keep fighting against them. Xomiakov was right: Protestantism could not have emerged were it not for the peculiarly Catholic mentality. See, we the Orthodox believe that Mary has participated in our redemption by giving flesh to God, sharing it with Him as His Mother, and therefore suffering immensely when He suffered. But that (participated in Redemption) is predication, not a term for definition. The switch from one to the other has caused not only abominations in theology but many weird and silly tendencies in contemporary philosophy--operating, after the Germans (Kant mostly, a! lm! ost exclusively with nominal terms, not verbal predications. It (the Kant and Post-Kant philosophy) is interested in processes and phenomena, therefore in nouns (hence terms as neologisms) and their more precise adjectival definitions, at best (usually, nominal monstrosities like "coredemptrix--be that Latin, German, or Greek)--not in who does what to whom, or even what acts which way when. O, the good old days of Socrates! But he already started trying to define basic abstractions--virtue, love, etc... On the other hand, without him, we would not have had St. Basil the Great of Caesarea--one of my favorite poets. But then again, I prefer his liturgical writings--in the form of a long and beautiful NARRATIVE on creation and Redemption--to his speculative ones. With the exception of comparing the rain of God's mercy to Danae's golden rain. But this in no way means that he believed Zeus was a deity! His comparison was in the predication of the act of God's (true and One!) merc! y ! that makes the creation fruitful. Not knowing the difference between dry nominal definitions and poetry's predicating metaphors causes many heresies or silly points, as well as new disciplines in philosophy. Nowadays, "scientific" language requires that people first lose all sense of the poetic. Then they could say that the Orthodox believe Mary is a deity or that every word of the Bible is literally true--rather than saturated with powerful tropes intelligible to contemporaries (fundamentalisms of all sorts, following all sorts of bibles). All of these outcomes amount to one simple truth, noted by Mandel'stam in his persecutors: "Ia ponial: oni prosto ne liubiat stixov!" Basil's is the logic of poetry and metaphor, liuke that of Orthodox liturgical poetry and poetics. when the Mother of God is compared to the Red Sea because she opened and closed for the salvation of Israel, or to the Red Bush because She contained God without being consumed by Him, or even to the Temple! , ! because--yes!-- She is one, but only because what matters about the Temple IS its function, the sole definition of its identity. Concluding that the Mother of God was seen by "those primitives" (it still is) as a sea of sorts (not the Red one, and not in that very function, as in Exodus!) is both too narrow and too broad--as is usually the case with trope-deaf people. That, incidentally, was the way Freud read tropes, a typical representative of our modern trope-deaf sciences and philosophies. Sorry for sounding too tempestuous: I consider this topic the reason I engaged in poetics in the first place. olga ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Tue Sep 7 12:17:20 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 08:17:20 -0400 Subject: quartering the military In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Леночка, по поводу a committee (?) for quartering of the military. Осторожно с этим словечком! Оно в виде глагола и особенно герундия, сегодня может значить, прежде всего, четвертование! Оно, конечно, и для этого найдется какой-нибудь комитет--трибунал, например, но в России с этим всегда было проще: самомуд, и все. Ну, дедовщина, там, и прочие страсти-мордасти. Или это у меня воображение нездоровое? Как Вы там в Москве и без меня, любимой? В Каргополь поехать у меня никак не выходит, тут на работе нечто неописуемое. И очень жаль. У меня даже доклад есть. Впрочем, можно попросить Сашу Кравецкого прочесть. Целую-- о ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Tue Sep 7 12:22:17 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 08:22:17 -0400 Subject: Oops!!! Re: [SEELANGS] quartering the military In-Reply-To: <20100907081720.AFR54547@mstore-prod-2.pdc.uis.georgetown.edu> Message-ID: Sorry for previous: meant as a private missive to Lena Ostrovskaia. o.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rmcleminson at POST.SK Tue Sep 7 13:47:25 2010 From: rmcleminson at POST.SK (R. M. Cleminson) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 15:47:25 +0200 Subject: Oops!!! Re: [SEELANGS] quartering the military In-Reply-To: <1104056951.158447.1283867216432.JavaMail.root@mbox01.in.post.sk> Message-ID: But then we would have been denied a gem of creative mistranslation (хотя, конечно, to quarter = разместить по квартирам, особенно но не исключительно в военном контексте). It reminds me of that favourite administrative unit of art galleries, the hanging committee. ----- Originálna správa ----- Odosielateľ: "Olga Meerson" Komu: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Dátum: utorok, september 7, 2010 01:22:17 Predmet: [SEELANGS] Oops!!! Re: [SEELANGS] quartering the military Sorry for previous: meant as a private missive to Lena Ostrovskaia. o.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry for previous: meant as a private missive to Lena Ostrovskaia. o.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- _____________________________________________________________________ Sprievodca hernym svetom - http://hry.sme.sk/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ameliede at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Sep 7 18:28:32 2010 From: ameliede at EARTHLINK.NET (J F Levin) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 11:28:32 -0700 Subject: Another translation question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:38 AM 9/7/2010, you wrote: >Right, that's a committee (?) for quartering of the military. >You can see it in Alexander Weltman's novel (1846), for example: > > - ðÏÒÕÞÉË äÍÉÔÒÉÃËÉÊ; ×ÏÔ ÎÅ ÄÏÐÒÏÛÕÓØ, ÇÄÅ Ë×ÁÒÔÉÒÎÁÑ ËÏÍÉÓÓÉÑ: >ÚÁÇÏÔÏ×ÉÔØ ÎÁÄÏ Ë×ÁÒÔÉÒÕ ÅÇÏ ÂÌÁÇÏÒÏÄÉÀ. > >You can check it for a wider context. >Elena Ostrovskaya Alas, my Eudora requires transliteration, but this is very interesting. In the town of Kovno, 1860. this committee was headed by the "Politsiimeister", and had 3 deputies: "ot dvoryan", "ot meshchan", and "ot evreev". There was also a secretary/recorder. The last four were named individuals. There were 8 communities in the gubernia with more or less the same representation. Quotas! Jules Levin ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From levitt at COLLEGE.USC.EDU Tue Sep 7 20:23:02 2010 From: levitt at COLLEGE.USC.EDU (Marcus Levitt) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 13:23:02 -0700 Subject: job posting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The department of Slavic Languages and Literatures in the College of Letters, Arts & Sciencesat the University of Southern California invites applications for a tenure-track position at the level of assistant professor in the area of Russian and/or central or eastern European cinema. In addition to Ph.D. by August 2011, significant scholarly potential and native or near-native fluency in the relevant language(s) is required. The successful applicant will be expected to teach both graduate and undergraduate courses, including courses in the University’s general education program. USC strongly values diversity and is committed to equal opportunity in employment. Women and men, and members of all racial and ethnic groups, are encouraged to apply. Applicants should submit a cover letter, curriculum vitae, sample of scholarly writing, and three letters of recommendation to: Professor Thomas Seifrid, Chair Department of Slavic Languages and Literatures Taper Hall 255 University of Southern California Los Angeles, CA 90089-4353 In order to receive full consideration materials should be sent to the department by no later than November 1, 2010. The department expects to conduct preliminary interviews at the ASEEES convention in Los Angeles in November 2010 and the AATSEEL convention in Pasadena in January 2011. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Tue Sep 7 21:10:54 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 17:10:54 -0400 Subject: GPS directions, color schemes, and other linguistic universals Message-ID: Interesting musings by Ange Mlinko, with references to some recent publications. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU Tue Sep 7 21:12:07 2010 From: mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU (Melissa Smith) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 17:12:07 -0400 Subject: AW: [SEELANGS] AW: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix Message-ID: I've missed the actual context that Dan was looking for a translation for this term, but I assumed it was a non-believer's attempt to insert contemporary sexual equality into religious terminology that hasn't quite kept up with the times! It never struck me as something that might actually be possible in the context of Orthodox religions. Melissa Smith On 9/7/10 4:26 AM, FIEGUTH Rolf wrote: > Dear Olga, > > you are quite right in stating that Mary cannot be a deity for Christian believers, even for Her most ardent and deepest venerators. But it is precisely for this very reason that "coredemptrix" is an inacceptable concept and term outside the Roman Catholic Church, since it puts Mary on the same level as Jesus Christ. > Best wishes to you and Daniel, > > Rolf Fieguth > ________________________________________ > Von: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] im Auftrag von Olga Meerson [meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU] > Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. September 2010 04:30 > An: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Betreff: Re: [SEELANGS] AW: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix > > Mary is NOT a deity, at least not for Orthodox or roman Catholic believers. Daniel, if you write such a thing, it is like claiming that Russians' reverence for Pushkin proves they [ we believe he is a god. A nice metaphor but not true literally. Not all veneration is deifying. Certainly not the veneration of the Mother of God in the eyes of those who venerate Her. Isn't it logical that they should be consulted on what they believe? If you write that She is "an important deity" for the Orthodox, be prepared for the whole publication you are contributing to to be compromised by such a statement. perhaps there is other compromising evidence in your book but I hope not so. It is amazing how the same people who uphold fairly high standards for their own fields of scholarship say all kinds of nonsense about religion and theology! There are things to know about theological matters, and if you don't know them, it is prudent not to talk about them--if only to uphold your own intellec! > tu! > al reputation. > Respectfully, > o.m. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------ Melissa T. Smith, Professor Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures Youngstown State University Youngstown, OH 44555 Tel: (330)941-3462 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From darancourlaferriere at COMCAST.NET Tue Sep 7 21:14:27 2010 From: darancourlaferriere at COMCAST.NET (Daniel Rancour-Laferriere) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 14:14:27 -0700 Subject: AW: [SEELANGS] AW: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: <75D697C5ED56E3479777756D06384654BF5F582536@EXCHANGE1.unifr.ch> Message-ID: Dear Olga and Rolf, I initially asked only for a potential Russian translation of the word "coredemptrix," doubting that it would exist, or at least doubting that it would be meaningful in the Orthodox context, since I had previously published an entire book on veneration of the Mother of God in Russia and did not recall any notion of a coredeemer among Russian Orthodox believers or theologians. Then I made the mistake of copying a footnote from my book in progress about Christian attitudes toward Mary. The book is not about Slavic studies, but is more properly in the field of religious studies. There are atheists in this latter field, and I am one of them. However, SEELANGS is a list for Slavists, so I will not comment on the theological assertions which have been made here. I do welcome any information (off-list) from you about any books or articles which you have published about Mary. With regards, Daniel R-L. On Sep 7, 2010, at 1:26 AM, FIEGUTH Rolf wrote: Dear Olga, you are quite right in stating that Mary cannot be a deity for Christian believers, even for Her most ardent and deepest venerators. But it is precisely for this very reason that "coredemptrix" is an inacceptable concept and term outside the Roman Catholic Church, since it puts Mary on the same level as Jesus Christ. Best wishes to you and Daniel, Rolf Fieguth ________________________________________ Von: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] im Auftrag von Olga Meerson [meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU] Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. September 2010 04:30 An: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Betreff: Re: [SEELANGS] AW: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix Mary is NOT a deity, at least not for Orthodox or roman Catholic believers. Daniel, if you write such a thing, it is like claiming that Russians' reverence for Pushkin proves they [ we believe he is a god. A nice metaphor but not true literally. Not all veneration is deifying. Certainly not the veneration of the Mother of God in the eyes of those who venerate Her. Isn't it logical that they should be consulted on what they believe? If you write that She is "an important deity" for the Orthodox, be prepared for the whole publication you are contributing to to be compromised by such a statement. perhaps there is other compromising evidence in your book but I hope not so. It is amazing how the same people who uphold fairly high standards for their own fields of scholarship say all kinds of nonsense about religion and theology! There are things to know about theological matters, and if you don't know them, it is prudent not to talk about them--if only to uphold your own intellec! tu! al reputation. Respectfully, o.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From cn29 at COLUMBIA.EDU Tue Sep 7 21:45:55 2010 From: cn29 at COLUMBIA.EDU (cn29 at COLUMBIA.EDU) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 17:45:55 -0400 Subject: Tolstoi and Austen In-Reply-To: <2286244B89D3CF4CBFA645AF11EBF5E101FF97@ebe2.umassb.net> Message-ID: Dear Edie, Having spent a fair amount of time researching Austen in Russia, I have found no evidence of Tolstoi having read Jane Austen. Moreover, the main librarian at Yasnaya Polyana has assured me that there is no mention of Austen in Tolstoi's writings. I would be happy to share with your friend what I have published on the history of Austen in Russia. Best wishes, Cathy -- Catharine Nepomnyashchy Ann Whitney Olin Professor and Chair, Slavic Department Barnard College 212 854-2059 Quoting Edythe Haber : > A friend of mine (an English professor) asked me whether there is > any evidence that Tolstoi read Jane Austen. I don't know, but if > those of you out there who do know could let me know, I'd much > appreciate it. > > Best, > Edie Haber > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mdenner at STETSON.EDU Tue Sep 7 22:43:17 2010 From: mdenner at STETSON.EDU (Michael Denner) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 18:43:17 -0400 Subject: Tolstoi and Austen In-Reply-To: <20100907174555.cxvlq6tlk0coos8s@cubmail.cc.columbia.edu> Message-ID: i wanted to second dr nepomnyashchy remark. tolstoy never read austen, and if he had heard of her, she was undifferentiated from other british novelists of the time, eg burney, in fact, i would hazard that by and large austen's fame is a 20th-century phenomenon, mostly attributable to the bloomsbury group's promotion of her. i would be very interested to find, for instance, that ANY russian novelist (or french, or german) of the 19th c. was terribly familiar with her work, or found it remarkable to any degree. (i'm a lover of austen, but that doesn't change her historical role.) i'll probably be proved wrong... ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Dr. Michael A. Denner Associate Professor of Russian Studies Editor, Tolstoy Studies Journal Director, University Honors Program Contact Information: Russian Studies Program Stetson University Campus Box 8361 DeLand, FL 32720-3756 386.822.7381 (department) 386.822.7265 (direct line) 386.822.7380 (fax) google talk michaeladenner www.stetson.edu/~mdenner ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of cn29 at COLUMBIA.EDU [cn29 at COLUMBIA.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:45 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Tolstoi and Austen Dear Edie, Having spent a fair amount of time researching Austen in Russia, I have found no evidence of Tolstoi having read Jane Austen. Moreover, the main librarian at Yasnaya Polyana has assured me that there is no mention of Austen in Tolstoi's writings. I would be happy to share with your friend what I have published on the history of Austen in Russia. Best wishes, Cathy -- Catharine Nepomnyashchy Ann Whitney Olin Professor and Chair, Slavic Department Barnard College 212 854-2059 Quoting Edythe Haber : > A friend of mine (an English professor) asked me whether there is > any evidence that Tolstoi read Jane Austen. I don't know, but if > those of you out there who do know could let me know, I'd much > appreciate it. > > Best, > Edie Haber > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rkikafedra at nilc.spb.ru Wed Sep 8 04:41:48 2010 From: rkikafedra at nilc.spb.ru (Natalia A.Androsova) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 08:41:48 +0400 Subject: Coredemptrix Message-ID: Predstatelnica and zastupnica (предстательница и заступница) seem the closest ones... Elena Arkhipova, PhD, MBA, Vice-President for Foreign Affairs, Nevsky Institute of Language and Culture 27 Bolshaya Raznochinnaya St. Petersburg, 197110, Russia tel./fax: +7 812 230 36 98 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Rancour-Laferriere" To: Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 9:53 PM Subject: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix > Is anyone aware of a Russian equivalent for one of the (controversial) > English designations of the Virgin Mary, namely, "coredemptrix" (or the > related term "mediatrix")? > > Thank you. > > Daniel Rancour-Laferriere > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK Wed Sep 8 08:27:10 2010 From: Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK (Simon Beattie) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 09:27:10 +0100 Subject: Tolstoi and Austen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Austen only appeared in German twice in the nineteenth century, as far as I'm aware, and both are famously rare books: "Persuasion" ("Anna. Ein Familiengemählde", tr. Wilhelm Adolf Lindau, Leipzig, 1822, three copies known: Staatsbibliothek Berlin, Landesbibliothek Schwerin, British Library) and "Pride and Prejudice" ("Stolz und Vorurtheil", tr. Louise Marezoll, Leipzig, 1830, a sole copy known, at Harvard). Of course, this only accounts for translations. There was nothing to stop an English-speaking German reading her books. Simon Simon Beattie Antiquarian books and music 84 The Broadway | Chesham | Buckinghamshire | HP5 1EG | UK tel. +44 (0)1494 784954 | mobile/voicemail +44 (0)7717 707575 | e-mail simon at simonbeattie.co.uk VAT no. GB 983 5355 83 Join me on Facebook. -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Michael Denner Sent: 07 September 2010 23:43 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Tolstoi and Austen i wanted to second dr nepomnyashchy remark. tolstoy never read austen, and if he had heard of her, she was undifferentiated from other british novelists of the time, eg burney, in fact, i would hazard that by and large austen's fame is a 20th-century phenomenon, mostly attributable to the bloomsbury group's promotion of her. i would be very interested to find, for instance, that ANY russian novelist (or french, or german) of the 19th c. was terribly familiar with her work, or found it remarkable to any degree. (i'm a lover of austen, but that doesn't change her historical role.) i'll probably be proved wrong... ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Dr. Michael A. Denner Associate Professor of Russian Studies Editor, Tolstoy Studies Journal Director, University Honors Program Contact Information: Russian Studies Program Stetson University Campus Box 8361 DeLand, FL 32720-3756 386.822.7381 (department) 386.822.7265 (direct line) 386.822.7380 (fax) google talk michaeladenner www.stetson.edu/~mdenner ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of cn29 at COLUMBIA.EDU [cn29 at COLUMBIA.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:45 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Tolstoi and Austen Dear Edie, Having spent a fair amount of time researching Austen in Russia, I have found no evidence of Tolstoi having read Jane Austen. Moreover, the main librarian at Yasnaya Polyana has assured me that there is no mention of Austen in Tolstoi's writings. I would be happy to share with your friend what I have published on the history of Austen in Russia. Best wishes, Cathy -- Catharine Nepomnyashchy Ann Whitney Olin Professor and Chair, Slavic Department Barnard College 212 854-2059 Quoting Edythe Haber : > A friend of mine (an English professor) asked me whether there is > any evidence that Tolstoi read Jane Austen. I don't know, but if > those of you out there who do know could let me know, I'd much > appreciate it. > > Best, > Edie Haber > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From zielinski at GMX.CH Wed Sep 8 08:45:24 2010 From: zielinski at GMX.CH (Jan Zielinski) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 10:45:24 +0200 Subject: Tolstoi and Austen In-Reply-To: <000301cb4f2f$a1d502e0$e57f08a0$@co.uk> Message-ID: Simon Beattie pisze: > Austen only appeared in German twice in the nineteenth century, as far as > I'm aware, and both are famously rare books: "Persuasion" ("Anna. Ein > Familiengemählde", tr. Wilhelm Adolf Lindau, Leipzig, 1822, three copies > known: Staatsbibliothek Berlin, Landesbibliothek Schwerin, British Library) > and "Pride and Prejudice" ("Stolz und Vorurtheil", tr. Louise Marezoll, > Leipzig, 1830, a sole copy known, at Harvard). There is a copy of "Anna" at the university library in Basel (sign.: LesG E 908). Jan Zielinski Berne ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK Wed Sep 8 08:50:53 2010 From: Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK (Simon Beattie) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 09:50:53 +0100 Subject: Tolstoi and Austen In-Reply-To: <4C874D24.8040609@gmx.ch> Message-ID: Thanks, Jan. It's interesting to know about another copy. My informal census is based on work done when the British Library acquired its copy some years ago. Simon -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Jan Zielinski Sent: 08 September 2010 09:45 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Tolstoi and Austen Simon Beattie pisze: > Austen only appeared in German twice in the nineteenth century, as far as > I'm aware, and both are famously rare books: "Persuasion" ("Anna. Ein > Familiengemählde", tr. Wilhelm Adolf Lindau, Leipzig, 1822, three copies > known: Staatsbibliothek Berlin, Landesbibliothek Schwerin, British Library) > and "Pride and Prejudice" ("Stolz und Vorurtheil", tr. Louise Marezoll, > Leipzig, 1830, a sole copy known, at Harvard). There is a copy of "Anna" at the university library in Basel (sign.: LesG E 908). Jan Zielinski Berne ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From zielinski at GMX.CH Wed Sep 8 09:29:26 2010 From: zielinski at GMX.CH (Jan Zielinski) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 11:29:26 +0200 Subject: Tolstoi and Austen In-Reply-To: <000f01cb4f32$f23e4f40$d6baedc0$@co.uk> Message-ID: Simon Beattie pisze: > Thanks, Jan. It's interesting to know about another copy. My informal > census is based on work done when the British Library acquired its copy some > years ago. The book was most probably already there, but not yet visible in the on-line catalogue. You may be interested in the fact that the novel belonged to the local Reading Society (Lesegesellschaft), founded 1787 by Isaac Iselin, which means it most probably circulated among the XIXth century reading public in Basel. The Society still exists, in the same place near the Cathedral since 1832: http://www.lesegesellschaft-basel.ch/ueber/geschichte.htm Jan ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK Wed Sep 8 09:41:40 2010 From: Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK (Simon Beattie) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 10:41:40 +0100 Subject: Tolstoi and Austen In-Reply-To: <4C875776.7070105@gmx.ch> Message-ID: How nice. Another copy of "Anna" was recorded as being in the library of the Studenterforeningen, Copenhagen, in the nineteenth century, but is apparently no longer in the collection. Simon -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Jan Zielinski Sent: 08 September 2010 10:29 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Tolstoi and Austen Simon Beattie pisze: > Thanks, Jan. It's interesting to know about another copy. My informal > census is based on work done when the British Library acquired its copy some > years ago. The book was most probably already there, but not yet visible in the on-line catalogue. You may be interested in the fact that the novel belonged to the local Reading Society (Lesegesellschaft), founded 1787 by Isaac Iselin, which means it most probably circulated among the XIXth century reading public in Basel. The Society still exists, in the same place near the Cathedral since 1832: http://www.lesegesellschaft-basel.ch/ueber/geschichte.htm Jan ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Wed Sep 8 10:12:21 2010 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 11:12:21 +0100 Subject: GPS directions, color schemes, and other linguistic universals In-Reply-To: <4C86AA5E.5040109@pbg-translations.com> Message-ID: Yes, an interesting article. It begins "Before I knew that school buses were yellow, I experienced them as tangerine." and mentions sinii/goluboi and Russian colour awareness. This prompted me to some "Wort und Sache" reflections. As a child in a largish working-class family in WW2 I did not see an orange until well after the war, and tangerines, satsumas etc re-emerged into general use several years later, and then only as rather exotic Christmas treats. So I don't know how I learned to identify orange as a colour. Presumably by instruction but without any specific point of reference. And I still would not normally employ tangerine as a first-choice colour term, and think of it as a word more likely to be seen in a fashion magazine or list of paint shades. My memory of American school buses is that they are indeed yellow. In the Russian context, as a student in Leningrad in the early sixties I never saw an orange or any other citrus fruit. I do in fact wonder if the word "oranzhevyi" is as common in Russian as "orange" (as a colour word) is in English. The etymological dictionaries suggest that "oranzhevyi" was a borrowing from French in the 1860s, while in English "orange" as a colour has been in use at least since the 16th century. In Russian the colour word does not have the mnemonic benefit of a corresponding fruit referent as the English does. And as far as I know "apel'sinovyi" is not commonly used as a colour word. So what did Russian use before they had "oranzhevyi" and is "oranzhevyi" a first-choice word now? A quick unscientific search on Google and Yandex suggests that "a yellow orange" is not a normal word combination in English while "zheltyi apel'sin" is quite possible in Russian. I imagine that "an orange orange" would be even less likely in English, since it is a jingle, while "oranzhevyi apel'sin" would be quite possible in Russian. Will Ryan On 07/09/2010 22:10, Paul B. Gallagher wrote: > > > Interesting musings by Ange Mlinko, with references to some recent > publications. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jwilson at SRAS.ORG Wed Sep 8 10:35:41 2010 From: jwilson at SRAS.ORG (Josh Wilson) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 14:35:41 +0400 Subject: GPS directions, color schemes, and other linguistic universals In-Reply-To: <4C876185.80907@sas.ac.uk> Message-ID: In my (unscientific) experience, "oranzhevyi" is a fairly commonly used word. That said, Russian conceptions of colors are quite different from American. I have encountered several cases in my eight years in Moscow, and with several Russians, where something was, for instance, pointed out to me as blue that was quite strikingly purple. That which is orange for me is sometimes brown from them. It seems that the lines in Russia between white, beige, and brown are also not where I would put them. Interesting, and would probably make for a very interesting study at some point in time... Josh Wilson Assistant Director The School of Russian and Asian Studies Editor in Chief Vestnik, The Journal of Russian and Asian Studies SRAS.org jwilson at sras.org -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of William Ryan Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 2:12 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] GPS directions, color schemes, and other linguistic universals Yes, an interesting article. It begins "Before I knew that school buses were yellow, I experienced them as tangerine." and mentions sinii/goluboi and Russian colour awareness. This prompted me to some "Wort und Sache" reflections. As a child in a largish working-class family in WW2 I did not see an orange until well after the war, and tangerines, satsumas etc re-emerged into general use several years later, and then only as rather exotic Christmas treats. So I don't know how I learned to identify orange as a colour. Presumably by instruction but without any specific point of reference. And I still would not normally employ tangerine as a first-choice colour term, and think of it as a word more likely to be seen in a fashion magazine or list of paint shades. My memory of American school buses is that they are indeed yellow. In the Russian context, as a student in Leningrad in the early sixties I never saw an orange or any other citrus fruit. I do in fact wonder if the word "oranzhevyi" is as common in Russian as "orange" (as a colour word) is in English. The etymological dictionaries suggest that "oranzhevyi" was a borrowing from French in the 1860s, while in English "orange" as a colour has been in use at least since the 16th century. In Russian the colour word does not have the mnemonic benefit of a corresponding fruit referent as the English does. And as far as I know "apel'sinovyi" is not commonly used as a colour word. So what did Russian use before they had "oranzhevyi" and is "oranzhevyi" a first-choice word now? A quick unscientific search on Google and Yandex suggests that "a yellow orange" is not a normal word combination in English while "zheltyi apel'sin" is quite possible in Russian. I imagine that "an orange orange" would be even less likely in English, since it is a jingle, while "oranzhevyi apel'sin" would be quite possible in Russian. Will Ryan On 07/09/2010 22:10, Paul B. Gallagher wrote: > > > Interesting musings by Ange Mlinko, with references to some recent > publications. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Sep 8 10:44:20 2010 From: anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM (anne marie devlin) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 11:44:20 +0100 Subject: GPS directions, color schemes, and other linguistic universals In-Reply-To: <4C876185.80907@sas.ac.uk> Message-ID: Just a memory re: oranzhevyi and it's place in the Russian language. there is a song I vaguely remember my daughter learnt in detskyi sad which has the lines oranzhevoe nebo, oranzhevyi verblyud. It seems to portray some sort of exotic even pyschodelic world. if you take it in context with the Beatles Lucy in the sky with diamonds and the reference to tangerine dreams and marmalade skies, there is maybe some connection in both languages between things of a yellowy/reddish hue and the fantastic??? Of course, here in Ireland, orange has completely different connotations AM > Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 11:12:21 +0100 > From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] GPS directions, color schemes, and other linguistic universals > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > Yes, an interesting article. It begins "Before I knew that school > buses were yellow, I experienced them as tangerine." and mentions > sinii/goluboi and Russian colour awareness. > > This prompted me to some "Wort und Sache" reflections. As a child in a > largish working-class family in WW2 I did not see an orange until well > after the war, and tangerines, satsumas etc re-emerged into general use > several years later, and then only as rather exotic Christmas treats. So > I don't know how I learned to identify orange as a colour. Presumably by > instruction but without any specific point of reference. And I still > would not normally employ tangerine as a first-choice colour term, and > think of it as a word more likely to be seen in a fashion magazine or > list of paint shades. My memory of American school buses is that they > are indeed yellow. > > In the Russian context, as a student in Leningrad in the early sixties I > never saw an orange or any other citrus fruit. I do in fact wonder if > the word "oranzhevyi" is as common in Russian as "orange" (as a colour > word) is in English. The etymological dictionaries suggest that > "oranzhevyi" was a borrowing from French in the 1860s, while in English > "orange" as a colour has been in use at least since the 16th century. In > Russian the colour word does not have the mnemonic benefit of a > corresponding fruit referent as the English does. And as far as I know > "apel'sinovyi" is not commonly used as a colour word. So what did > Russian use before they had "oranzhevyi" and is "oranzhevyi" a > first-choice word now? A quick unscientific search on Google and Yandex > suggests that "a yellow orange" is not a normal word combination in > English while "zheltyi apel'sin" is quite possible in Russian. I imagine > that "an orange orange" would be even less likely in English, since it > is a jingle, while "oranzhevyi apel'sin" would be quite possible in Russian. > > Will Ryan > > On 07/09/2010 22:10, Paul B. Gallagher wrote: > > > > > > Interesting musings by Ange Mlinko, with references to some recent > > publications. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Wed Sep 8 12:11:27 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 08:11:27 -0400 Subject: AW: [SEELANGS] AW: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: <938A4FDC-E23B-4379-B8E5-8D973CE746F6@comcast.net> Message-ID: Dear Dan, Re: "I will not comment on the theological assertions which have been made here. " I usually do not make theological assertions to unwelcoming audiences. The occasion this time was that these assertions were made TO me about MY beliefs. No Orthodox Christian (or an RC one) believes Mary is a deity, not in their right mind. Comments on others' beliefs are something atheists nowadays enjoy making but I am not sure it is parliamentary or plain decent, even purely intellectually. Of what I, OLGA, believe and confess, say, in the Nicene Creed and in my prayers, I probably know more than you do, no? Wouldn't it be logical to assume this as true about any "I"? :) Incidentally, this point makes me doubt that Theology is a decent occupation for atheists, although I know how unfashionable and unprofessional my opinion sounds here. I just think that telling the world what others believe and confess is always presumptuous--in matters of faith as well as in other matters. It is like confessing others' sins, or, in your terms, like going to a shrink in a capacity other than yourself, talking about another's drives, dreams, fantasies, inhibitions, etc., instead of your own. "O, Doc., I don't have this erotic fantasy of sleeping with my mother--I am merely speaking from the point of view of a guy who believes in psychoanalysis!" This sounds silly outside of religious context. It is even sillier inside, believe me--I do have something at stake there! Distance is not always the best way to understand things--not in the cases when you want to understand the other's PERSPECTIVE, rather than merely this other, and his or her mentality, as a mere o! bj! ect of YOUR observation. Not all religious beliefs are unconscious, at least none of those that count for the believer. Sorry for the tone--just trying to clarify what some things you are discussing may mean outside your purview--for example, in the eyes of those who care about those things. o.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rrobin at GWU.EDU Wed Sep 8 12:48:47 2010 From: rrobin at GWU.EDU (Richard Robin) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 08:48:47 -0400 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age Message-ID: Dear SEELANGers, I’d like to get some feedback from colleagues on the issue of teaching Russian script to beginners in an era of computer-delivered materials. Imagine using a textbook under the following conditions: 1. Every exercise is online but also available in the printed version of a student workbook (tear out pages, etc.) 2. Your students have computers that can type Cyrillic, and using either the native Gosstandart layout or the phonetic “student” keyboard, they can type Russian. 3. While all the exercises are on line, some are (a) machine gradable (simple choose the ending or fill in the blank with an unambiguous word or phrase, (b) sentence or paragraph length, submittable electronically to the teacher, but not machine gradable. Questions: 1. Do you teach cursive basically for recognition and embrace the use of all the online exercises? 2. Do you limit the use of the students’ use of the computer until they have mastered cursive? 3. If you answered yes, to Question 2, what are the limits? How long must they write things by hand? (It helps if you calculate by instructional hours, where a typical 4-hour a week semester of 15 weeks comes to 60 hours, a year — 120 hours). Do they have to write everything by hand or is there an acceptable mix of handwritten work and computer work? 4. Any other opinions you have on the subject. Either public or private answers are appreciated. This is not a formal scholarly survey (obviously). I just want to get people to express some opinions on the matter. Thanks, Richard Robin -- Richard M. Robin Director Russian Language Program The George Washington University Washington, DC 20052 202-994-7081 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From chaput at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Sep 8 13:33:01 2010 From: chaput at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Patricia Chaput) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 09:33:01 -0400 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a very quick reply to your question. We require students to do all of their work in handwritten form during the first year, with the exception that students who want to start writing compositions on the computer in the second semester may do so. We require most of the work in second year to be handwritten as well. We insist on correct Russian shapes of the letters, use special "handwriting practice" paper to get correct and consistent letter height and letter shapes. There are sometimes errors that don't get corrected, but generally the results are pretty good. (Our second-year course includes a cursive review.) The reason for all of this is that research and experience show that the physical/kinesthetic shaping of the letters aids in recognition, spelling, retention. Human brains are very much programmed for "doing," not just observing, reading, etc. Writing, copying, making one's own handwritten flashcards—all of these traditional techniques continue to help students learn words, phrases, remember grammar because of the kinesthetic dimension to learning. We do incorporate some computer-based materials, but only as a supplement. (As an aside, we occasionally have students who do their own practice on the computer. One recently remarked that it had been a mistake, that he should have spent that time writing out his practice, that keyboarding just wasn't the same for helping him to learn and retain the material. Although our "sample" is very small, we continue to have good results with having our students write almost all of their work in cursive.) Pat Chaput Harvard University > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From MonnierN at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Sep 8 13:45:58 2010 From: MonnierN at MISSOURI.EDU (Monnier, Nicole M.) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 08:45:58 -0500 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Richard! Great question - one I was contemplating posting to the list as well. As I began the semester this year, I was struck by how many students don't use cursive in English and the added difficulties of this fact for the teaching of Russian cursive. As to your conditions, our current textbook (Live from Russia) does not have online exercises, so students inevitably have to handwrite their textbook exercises, as well as their exams and quizzes, so learning cursive is unavoidable at this juncture. I also tell them that they should be taking notes, and all my notes on the board are in cursive; likewise, when they head off to Russia (I always tell them "when," not "if"!), they're going to find themselves in situations where they'll have to read or write cursive. HOWEVER, I have been seriously contemplating requiring them to learn how to type in Russian, preferably with the Gosstandart layout (again, on the same premise that they find themselves in Russia some day with no option of the QUERTY translit keyboard), if only because it will give them incredible interactive access to real Russian online (Vkontakte, chat, etc.). I'm thinking about doing this in the second semester of first-year (ours is a 15-week course at 6 hours/week). I do not curtail students' use of the computer, though few venture onto the keyboard on their own in any event. If our university required all students to have laptops of some sort, I would be even more likely to require students to learn to type in Russian. Other than that, I can only say that I am as curious as you as to other practices in our field. Best, Nicole **************************** Dr. Nicole Monnier Associate Teaching Professor of Russian Director of Undergraduate Studies (Russian) German & Russian Studies 428A Strickland (formerly GCB) University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65211 phone: 573.882.3370 On 9/8/10 7:48 AM, "Richard Robin" wrote: > Dear SEELANGers, > > I¹d like to get some feedback from colleagues on the issue of teaching > Russian script to beginners in an era of computer-delivered materials. > > Imagine using a textbook under the following conditions: > > 1. Every exercise is online but also available in the printed version of > a student workbook (tear out pages, etc.) > 2. Your students have computers that can type Cyrillic, and using either > the native Gosstandart layout or the phonetic ³student² keyboard, they can > type Russian. > 3. While all the exercises are on line, some are (a) machine gradable > (simple choose the ending or fill in the blank with an unambiguous word or > phrase, (b) sentence or paragraph length, submittable electronically to the > teacher, but not machine gradable. > > > Questions: > > 1. Do you teach cursive basically for recognition and embrace the use of > all the online exercises? > 2. Do you limit the use of the students¹ use of the computer until they > have mastered cursive? > 3. If you answered yes, to Question 2, what are the limits? How long must > they write things by hand? (It helps if you calculate by instructional > hours, where a typical 4-hour a week semester of 15 weeks comes to 60 > hours, > a year ‹ 120 hours). Do they have to write everything by hand or is there > an > acceptable mix of handwritten work and computer work? > 4. Any other opinions you have on the subject. > > Either public or private answers are appreciated. This is not a formal > scholarly survey (obviously). I just want to get people to express some > opinions on the matter. > > Thanks, > Richard Robin > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Edythe.Haber at UMB.EDU Wed Sep 8 16:21:23 2010 From: Edythe.Haber at UMB.EDU (Edythe Haber) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 12:21:23 -0400 Subject: Tolstoi and Austen Message-ID: Thanks to all for the information about the Tolstoi-Austen connection -- or non-connection, as it turns out. I've forwarded your letters to my friend.. Edie Haber ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rmcleminson at POST.SK Wed Sep 8 17:48:30 2010 From: rmcleminson at POST.SK (R. M. Cleminson) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 19:48:30 +0200 Subject: Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: <1825411311.4402.1283968007318.JavaMail.root@mbox01.in.post.sk> Message-ID: Es tut mir Leid, aber ein Tisch ist ein Tisch. (For the dire consequences of ignoring this basic principle, see the well-known short story by Peter Bichsel.) Words mean what they mean. A deity is a being of a completely different nature (essentia, οὐσία) from a human being. Nobody in the Christian community (whether Orthodox, Roman Catholic, or any other denomination) regards Mary as a deity. Nobody in the Christian community (nor, a fortiori, outside it) behaves in such a way as to allow her to be classified phenomenologically as a deity, by offering her the worship (λατρεία) which is due to the Deity alone. Therefore it is not a matter of personal beliefs, nor of whether one's expertise is in the field of Slavonic studies or religious studies: to say that Mary is a deity is simply WRONG, in the same way that it is wrong to say that "domum" is locative when it is in fact accusative. It is not obligatory to believe in the object of one's study. It is, however, necessary to use words correctly if one aspires to academic respectability. ----- Originálna správa ----- Odosielateľ: "Daniel Rancour-Laferriere" Komu: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Dátum: utorok, september 7, 2010 10:14:27 Predmet: Re: [SEELANGS] AW: [SEELANGS] AW: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix Dear Olga and Rolf, I initially asked only for a potential Russian translation of the word "coredemptrix," doubting that it would exist, or at least doubting that it would be meaningful in the Orthodox context, since I had previously published an entire book on veneration of the Mother of God in Russia and did not recall any notion of a coredeemer among Russian Orthodox believers or theologians. Then I made the mistake of copying a footnote from my book in progress about Christian attitudes toward Mary. The book is not about Slavic studies, but is more properly in the field of religious studies. There are atheists in this latter field, and I am one of them. However, SEELANGS is a list for Slavists, so I will not comment on the theological assertions which have been made here. I do welcome any information (off-list) from you about any books or articles which you have published about Mary. With regards, Daniel R-L. On Sep 7, 2010, at 1:26 AM, FIEGUTH Rolf wrote: Dear Olga, you are quite right in stating that Mary cannot be a deity for Christian believers, even for Her most ardent and deepest venerators. But it is precisely for this very reason that "coredemptrix" is an inacceptable concept and term outside the Roman Catholic Church, since it puts Mary on the same level as Jesus Christ. Best wishes to you and Daniel, Rolf Fieguth ________________________________________ Von: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] im Auftrag von Olga Meerson [meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU] Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. September 2010 04:30 An: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Betreff: Re: [SEELANGS] AW: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix Mary is NOT a deity, at least not for Orthodox or roman Catholic believers. Daniel, if you write such a thing, it is like claiming that Russians' reverence for Pushkin proves they [ we believe he is a god. A nice metaphor but not true literally. Not all veneration is deifying. Certainly not the veneration of the Mother of God in the eyes of those who venerate Her. Isn't it logical that they should be consulted on what they believe? If you write that She is "an important deity" for the Orthodox, be prepared for the whole publication you are contributing to to be compromised by such a statement. perhaps there is other compromising evidence in your book but I hope not so. It is amazing how the same people who uphold fairly high standards for their own fields of scholarship say all kinds of nonsense about religion and theology! There are things to know about theological matters, and if you don't know them, it is prudent not to talk about them--if only to uphold your own intellec! tu! al reputation. Respectfully, o.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- _____________________________________________________________________ http://sport.sme.sk - Najkomplexnejsie informacie zo sportu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From beyer at MIDDLEBURY.EDU Wed Sep 8 18:26:12 2010 From: beyer at MIDDLEBURY.EDU (Beyer, Tom) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 18:26:12 +0000 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At Middlebury student learn cursive in first year, much like I learned the Palmer method in first grade. They begin using lined paper- two lines at first, writing in pen (meaning they have to practice several times before the final version). After they have learned the alphabet I give them two books used by Russian first graders to practice penmanship. But computers for text input also come into play almost immediately. A first night assignment is to print out a page from rambler.ru, just so they know their computers have Cyrillic. I also point to input methods, speak of finding and using online dictionaries, how to type in Cyrillic using either the Russian or some YAWERTY keyboard or online keyboards. Since some have Iphones, Ipads, Itouches, and who knows what else before long, etc I simply point them to google and say figure out how to type in Russian one way or another on whatever device(s) you have. Many do word lists on the computer,and there are some other assignments in first year: type a menu, make a business card, etc. But cursive by hand is still for the foreseeable future a necessary skill that I feel we should teach. Good luck and best wishes to all who toil in the garden of Basic Russian. On 9/8/10 9:45 AM, "Monnier, Nicole M." wrote: > Richard! > > Great question - one I was contemplating posting to the list as well. As I > began the semester this year, I was struck by how many students don't use > cursive in English and the added difficulties of this fact for the teaching > of Russian cursive. > > As to your conditions, our current textbook (Live from Russia) does not have > online exercises, so students inevitably have to handwrite their textbook > exercises, as well as their exams and quizzes, so learning cursive is > unavoidable at this juncture. I also tell them that they should be taking > notes, and all my notes on the board are in cursive; likewise, when they > head off to Russia (I always tell them "when," not "if"!), they're going to > find themselves in situations where they'll have to read or write cursive. > > HOWEVER, I have been seriously contemplating requiring them to learn how to > type in Russian, preferably with the Gosstandart layout (again, on the same > premise that they find themselves in Russia some day with no option of the > QUERTY translit keyboard), if only because it will give them incredible > interactive access to real Russian online (Vkontakte, chat, etc.). I'm > thinking about doing this in the second semester of first-year (ours is a > 15-week course at 6 hours/week). > > I do not curtail students' use of the computer, though few venture onto the > keyboard on their own in any event. > > If our university required all students to have laptops of some sort, I > would be even more likely to require students to learn to type in Russian. > > Other than that, I can only say that I am as curious as you as to other > practices in our field. > > Best, > > Nicole > > > **************************** > Dr. Nicole Monnier > Associate Teaching Professor of Russian > Director of Undergraduate Studies (Russian) > German & Russian Studies > 428A Strickland (formerly GCB) > University of Missouri > Columbia, MO 65211 > > phone: 573.882.3370 > > > > > On 9/8/10 7:48 AM, "Richard Robin" wrote: > >> Dear SEELANGers, >> >> I¹d like to get some feedback from colleagues on the issue of teaching >> Russian script to beginners in an era of computer-delivered materials. >> >> Imagine using a textbook under the following conditions: >> >> 1. Every exercise is online but also available in the printed version of >> a student workbook (tear out pages, etc.) >> 2. Your students have computers that can type Cyrillic, and using either >> the native Gosstandart layout or the phonetic ³student² keyboard, they can >> type Russian. >> 3. While all the exercises are on line, some are (a) machine gradable >> (simple choose the ending or fill in the blank with an unambiguous word or >> phrase, (b) sentence or paragraph length, submittable electronically to >> the >> teacher, but not machine gradable. >> >> >> Questions: >> >> 1. Do you teach cursive basically for recognition and embrace the use of >> all the online exercises? >> 2. Do you limit the use of the students¹ use of the computer until they >> have mastered cursive? >> 3. If you answered yes, to Question 2, what are the limits? How long must >> they write things by hand? (It helps if you calculate by instructional >> hours, where a typical 4-hour a week semester of 15 weeks comes to 60 >> hours, >> a year ‹ 120 hours). Do they have to write everything by hand or is there >> an >> acceptable mix of handwritten work and computer work? >> 4. Any other opinions you have on the subject. >> >> Either public or private answers are appreciated. This is not a formal >> scholarly survey (obviously). I just want to get people to express some >> opinions on the matter. >> >> Thanks, >> Richard Robin >> >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU Wed Sep 8 19:36:57 2010 From: mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU (Melissa Smith) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 15:36:57 -0400 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age Message-ID: Since Youngstown State has a one-year foreign language requirement and the bulk of our students stop their study at this level, I only require that they be able to READ cursive, and include sections on tests that include reading passages in cursive. I subsequently include writing assignments like greeting cards for different holidays, and give them models written for Russian children. I required that they send me a card for March 8th, International Women's Day, which falls about spring break, and gave them stamped envelopes and blank cards that they were supposed to mail me. This is not an ideal solution, but I try to compensate by getting them accustomed to using internet sources. I once had a student who had emigrated to the US at age 13 and wanted to return to study in a Russian University. Although she had gone to school and learned cursive as a child, she had taken to printing in both languages here. I had to convince her that she would be expected to write by hand were she to return to study in Moscow, and therefore had to retrain her! Melissa Smith On 9/8/10 2:26 PM, Beyer, Tom wrote: > At Middlebury student learn cursive in first year, much like I learned the > Palmer method in first grade. They begin using lined paper- two lines at > first, writing in pen (meaning they have to practice several times before > the final version). After they have learned the alphabet I give them two > books used by Russian first graders to practice penmanship. > But computers for text input also come into play almost immediately. A first > night assignment is to print out a page from rambler.ru, just so they know > their computers have Cyrillic. I also point to input methods, speak of > finding and using online dictionaries, how to type in Cyrillic using either > the Russian or some YAWERTY keyboard or online keyboards. Since some have > Iphones, Ipads, Itouches, and who knows what else before long, etc I simply > point them to google and say figure out how to type in Russian one way or > another on whatever device(s) you have. Many do word lists on the > computer,and there are some other assignments in first year: type a menu, > make a business card, etc. But cursive by hand is still for the foreseeable > future a necessary skill that I feel we should teach. > > Good luck and best wishes to all who toil in the garden of Basic Russian. > > > > On 9/8/10 9:45 AM, "Monnier, Nicole M." wrote: > > > Richard! > > > > Great question - one I was contemplating posting to the list as well. As I > > began the semester this year, I was struck by how many students don't use > > cursive in English and the added difficulties of this fact for the teaching > > of Russian cursive. > > > > As to your conditions, our current textbook (Live from Russia) does not have > > online exercises, so students inevitably have to handwrite their textbook > > exercises, as well as their exams and quizzes, so learning cursive is > > unavoidable at this juncture. I also tell them that they should be taking > > notes, and all my notes on the board are in cursive; likewise, when they > > head off to Russia (I always tell them "when," not "if"!), they're going to > > find themselves in situations where they'll have to read or write cursive. > > > > HOWEVER, I have been seriously contemplating requiring them to learn how to > > type in Russian, preferably with the Gosstandart layout (again, on the same > > premise that they find themselves in Russia some day with no option of the > > QUERTY translit keyboard), if only because it will give them incredible > > interactive access to real Russian online (Vkontakte, chat, etc.). I'm > > thinking about doing this in the second semester of first-year (ours is a > > 15-week course at 6 hours/week). > > > > I do not curtail students' use of the computer, though few venture onto the > > keyboard on their own in any event. > > > > If our university required all students to have laptops of some sort, I > > would be even more likely to require students to learn to type in Russian. > > > > Other than that, I can only say that I am as curious as you as to other > > practices in our field. > > > > Best, > > > > Nicole > > > > > > **************************** > > Dr. Nicole Monnier > > Associate Teaching Professor of Russian > > Director of Undergraduate Studies (Russian) > > German & Russian Studies > > 428A Strickland (formerly GCB) > > University of Missouri > > Columbia, MO 65211 > > > > phone: 573.882.3370 > > > > > > > > > > On 9/8/10 7:48 AM, "Richard Robin" wrote: > > > >> Dear SEELANGers, > >> > >> I¹d like to get some feedback from colleagues on the issue of teaching > >> Russian script to beginners in an era of computer-delivered materials. > >> > >> Imagine using a textbook under the following conditions: > >> > >> 1. Every exercise is online but also available in the printed version of > >> a student workbook (tear out pages, etc.) > >> 2. Your students have computers that can type Cyrillic, and using either > >> the native Gosstandart layout or the phonetic ³student² keyboard, they can > >> type Russian. > >> 3. While all the exercises are on line, some are (a) machine gradable > >> (simple choose the ending or fill in the blank with an unambiguous word or > >> phrase, (b) sentence or paragraph length, submittable electronically to > >> the > >> teacher, but not machine gradable. > >> > >> > >> Questions: > >> > >> 1. Do you teach cursive basically for recognition and embrace the use of > >> all the online exercises? > >> 2. Do you limit the use of the students¹ use of the computer until they > >> have mastered cursive? > >> 3. If you answered yes, to Question 2, what are the limits? How long must > >> they write things by hand? (It helps if you calculate by instructional > >> hours, where a typical 4-hour a week semester of 15 weeks comes to 60 > >> hours, > >> a year ‹ 120 hours). Do they have to write everything by hand or is there > >> an > >> acceptable mix of handwritten work and computer work? > >> 4. Any other opinions you have on the subject. > >> > >> Either public or private answers are appreciated. This is not a formal > >> scholarly survey (obviously). I just want to get people to express some > >> opinions on the matter. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Richard Robin > >> > >> > >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------ Melissa T. Smith, Professor Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures Youngstown State University Youngstown, OH 44555 Tel: (330)941-3462 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From anne.o.fisher at GMAIL.COM Wed Sep 8 20:38:26 2010 From: anne.o.fisher at GMAIL.COM (Anne Fisher) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 13:38:26 -0700 Subject: help finding book? Message-ID: Hello all, Ozon.ru doesn't have the Russian translation of Cormac McCarthy's "All The Pretty Horses" ("Koni, Koni") in stock. http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/1009410/ Does anyone have any other ideas where I could look to buy a copy? Or does anyone have a copy I can borrow? Thanks, Annie -- Anne O. Fisher, Ph.D. Russian Interpreter and Translator anne.o.fisher at gmail.com 440-986-0175 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Wed Sep 8 21:30:32 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 17:30:32 -0400 Subject: help finding book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Anne Fisher wrote: > Hello all, > > Ozon.ru doesn't have the Russian translation of Cormac McCarthy's "All The > Pretty Horses" ("Koni, Koni") in stock. > > > > Does anyone have any other ideas where I could look to buy a copy? Or does > anyone have a copy I can borrow? Will this 4 MB download do, or do you need a bound copy? There are several other places you can download it. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vcherednik1 at GMAIL.COM Wed Sep 8 21:47:09 2010 From: vcherednik1 at GMAIL.COM (Vitalii Cherednichenko) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 21:47:09 +0000 Subject: Coredemptrix Message-ID: Dear colleagues, regarding the ongoing fascinating discussion on the Coredemptrix term I wonder if there is a room to respond to the following issues that relate both to the style and to the essential subject-matter of the discussed: 1) When Professor Olga Meerson informs the list that: "what I, OLGA, believe and confess, say, in the Nicene Creed and in my prayers, I probably know more than you do, no..." --> does she claims the "her" (i.e. "Olga's") personal views and beliefs are to be observed as *the standard* and the most representative ones for the entire Orthodox Christianity? And it is up to "I Olga" to decide upon what is right and what is wrong? I do not see an easy way to understand why Olga Meerson seems to position herself as "the" Source on what Orthodox Christians think and feel? Don't we need to consult let's say, some Levada Centr anymore? Let us, then blindly subscribe to Olga's words and this will be the right to do. 1-a) Can we relate the somewhat surprising pathos of Olga Meerson's emotional address to Rolf Fieguth with the latter's finest explanation of "coredemptrix" as "soiskupitel'nica", a Russian equivalent term that was omitted in the previous answers? 2) Agreeing that the Dogma of Modern Christianity does not relate Mary to "deity" we, as scholars (and not only as "believers", --> remember, that the believer = believes and the scholar researches) may not forget the broader historical context of this subject. Let me just remind the well known facts that relate the Mother of Christ to Sophia, to the Great Mother-Goddess traditions, and so forth. They all correspond to the image of Mary. Shall we be interested in the History of Religions in the sense of Max Mueller and Mircea Eliade, or we'd rather stick to the Moskovskaia -Patrirchija, or the like dogmatic "prescriptions"? Shall we remember the term "archetype" in the History of Religions and what it stands for, or shall we rather not? What archetype does the Virgin Mary represents? No Mother-Goddess archetype at all? Our beloved and omnipotent Wikipedia rightly mentions that: "there are mystic undercurrents which emphasize the feminine aspects of the Godhead, e.g. the Collyridians in the time of early Christianity, who viewed Mary as a goddess, the medieval visionary Julian of Norwich, the Judaic Shekinah and the Gnostic Sophia traditions.". In the same vein we must not forget the versatile work of Joseph Campbell who also argues that the image of the Virgin Mary was derived from the image of Isis and her child Horus: "The antique model for the Madonna, actually, is Isis with Horus at her breast". Totally subscribing to R. M. Cleminson's wise citation on Es tut mir Leid, aber ein Tisch ist ein Tisch, I'd rather suggest we would deal with Christianity in a broader religious paradigmatic perspective, remembering where the religion was born, etc. The Gnostic and other Sophianic ideas here should be extremely relevant. And above all not to forget the apt expression by Max Mueller "The on who knows only one religion knows none". Thus, if dealing with the Virgin Mary as a deity, we may relate it to the broader archetype (of Isis, etc), rather than just sticking it up to what one particular believer, be it Olga Meerson or any other. The luxury of being a scholar, rather than a believer, is the ability to transcend the traditional dogmatic boundaries the regular adept of this Patriarchate or another can hardly afford. With regards to the list, Vitalii. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vcherednik1 at GMAIL.COM Wed Sep 8 21:55:47 2010 From: vcherednik1 at GMAIL.COM (Vitalii Cherednichenko) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 21:55:47 +0000 Subject: Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear colleagues, regarding the ongoing fascinating discussion on the Coredemptrix term I wonder if there is a room to respond to the following issues that relate both to the style and to the essential subject-matter of the discussed: 1) When Professor Olga Meerson informs the list that: "what I, OLGA, believe and confess, say, in the Nicene Creed and in my prayers, I probably know more than you do, no..." --> does she claim that "her" (i.e. "Olga's") personal views and beliefs are to be observed as *the standard* and the most representative ones for the entire Orthodox Christianity? And it is up to "I Olga" to decide upon what is right and what is wrong? I do not see an easy way to understand why Olga Meerson seems to position herself as "the" Source on what Orthodox Christians think and feel? Don't we need to consult let's say, some Levada Centr anymore? Let us, then blindly subscribe to Olga's words and this will be the right to do. 1-a) Can we relate the somewhat surprising pathos of Olga Meerson's emotional address to Rolf Fieguth with the latter's finest explanation of "coredemptrix" as "soiskupitel'nica", a Russian equivalent term that was omitted in the previous answers? 2) Agreeing that the Dogma of Modern Christianity does not relate Mary to "deity" we, as scholars (and not only as "believers", --> remember, that the believer = believes and the scholar researches) may not forget the broader historical context of this subject. Let me just remind the well known facts that relate the Mother of Christ to Sophia, to the Great Mother-Goddess traditions, and so forth. They all correspond to the image of Mary. Shall we be interested in the History of Religions in the sense of Max Mueller and Mircea Eliade, or we'd rather stick to the Moskovskaia -Patrirchija, or the like dogmatic "prescriptions"? Shall we remember the term "archetype" in the History of Religions and what it stands for, or shall we rather not? What archetype does the Virgin Mary represent? No Mother-Goddess archetype at all? Our beloved and omnipotent Wikipedia rightly mentions that: "there are mystic undercurrents which emphasize the feminine aspects of the Godhead, e.g. the Collyridians in the time of early Christianity, who viewed Mary as a goddess, the medieval visionary Julian of Norwich, the Judaic Shekinah and the Gnostic Sophia traditions.".               In the same vein we must not forget the versatile work of Joseph Campbell who also argues that the image of the Virgin Mary was derived from the image of Isis and her child Horus: "The antique model for the Madonna, actually, is Isis with Horus at her breast". Totally subscribing to R. M. Cleminson's wise citation on Es tut mir Leid, aber ein Tisch ist ein Tisch, I'd rather suggest we would deal with Christianity in a broader religious paradigmatic perspective, remembering where the religion was born, etc. The Gnostic and other Sophianic ideas here should be extremely relevant. And above all not to forget the apt expression by Max Mueller "The on who knows only one religion knows none". Thus, if dealing with the Virgin Mary as a deity, we may relate it to the broader archetype (of Isis, etc), rather than just sticking it up to what one particular believer, be it Olga Meerson or any other. The luxury of being a scholar, rather than a believer, is the ability to transcend the traditional dogmatic boundaries the regular adept of this Patriarchate or another can hardly afford. With regards to the list, Vitalii. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From anne.o.fisher at GMAIL.COM Wed Sep 8 22:41:16 2010 From: anne.o.fisher at GMAIL.COM (Anne Fisher) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 15:41:16 -0700 Subject: help finding book? In-Reply-To: <4C880078.1020701@pbg-translations.com> Message-ID: Hello Paul, Thanks for the suggestion. I saw those download opportunities but I inwardly shrink a little bit at that, since I didn't find any place to pay for the download (at least, not this one) and so the translator wouldn't get his/her share of the profit. And I know it would be a measly 2 rubles or some such, but still... it's the principle of the thing... I acknowledge a potential counter-argument about whether downloading is really any different from borrowing someone else's bound copy (since in that case I also don't pay to use the text) - or about whether the translator would ever see that pittance anyway, so perhaps the point is moot and in the end the translator would be more than pleased just to have someone seeking out and reading his/her translation... But that's a whole 'nother ball of worms, and I guess that for now I'll just say that I'd like to buy or borrow a bound copy if possible. Not to mention that I much prefer reading from a bound book I can hold in my hand, not from a screen (even if it is a screen I can also hold in my hand). All the best, Annie On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 2:30 PM, Paul B. Gallagher < paulbg at pbg-translations.com> wrote: > Anne Fisher wrote: > > Hello all, >> >> Ozon.ru doesn't have the Russian translation of Cormac McCarthy's "All The >> Pretty Horses" ("Koni, Koni") in stock. >> >> >> >> Does anyone have any other ideas where I could look to buy a copy? Or does >> anyone have a copy I can borrow? >> > > Will this 4 MB download do, or do you need a bound copy? > > > > There are several other places you can download it. > > -- > War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. > -- > Paul B. Gallagher > pbg translations, inc. > "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" > http://pbg-translations.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Anne O. Fisher, Ph.D. Russian Interpreter and Translator anne.o.fisher at gmail.com 440-986-0175 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Thu Sep 9 02:27:31 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 22:27:31 -0400 Subject: Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Re: Vitaly Cherednichenko's questions, if these were questions indeed: 1) When Professor Olga Meerson informs the list that: "what I, OLGA, believe and confess, say, in the Nicene Creed and in my prayers, I probably know more than you do, no..." --> does she claims the "her" (i.e. "Olga's") personal views and beliefs are to be observed as *the standard* and the most representative ones for the entire Orthodox Christianity? And it is up to "I Olga" to decide upon what is right and what is wrong? I do not see an easy way to understand why Olga Meerson seems to position herself as "the" Source on what Orthodox Christians think and feel? Don't we need to consult let's say, some Levada Centr anymore? Let us, then blindly subscribe to Olga's words and this will be the right to do. 1-a) Can we relate the somewhat surprising pathos of Olga Meerson's emotional address to Rolf Fieguth with the latter's finest explanation of "coredemptrix" as "soiskupitel'nica", a Russian equivalent term that was omitted in the previous answers? Olga Meerson: No to all of the above. No pathos, no representing every Orthodox Christian, no imposition of my authority on others, and, above all, no reflection--good or bad--on the work of the Levada Centre. No to Wikipedia as being "omnipotent" (did you mean "omniscient", Vitaly? No to that as well). No to soiskupitel'nitsa as a term either. Soiskupitel'nitsa is not itself a term but an attempt to have a semantically valid, if artificial, translation of one. But even Coredemptrix itself is hardly an established term (the Trident, for example, does not recognize any such thing). Vitaly, you have entirely missed the point, at least the one I was trying to make (which Rolph, by the way, did not: his response to me was fine and thoughtful; thank you, Rolph). The realm of discussion was entirely different. I am not positing myself as the, or even a, standard or the sole mouthpiece for what an Orthodox Christian believes--although my authority has counted for something for the past thirty ye! ar! s, given my biography, position, expertise, interests, both academic and ecclesiastic, and experience, of which things you, Vitaly, neither know much nor care to know or respect. The only thing I meant was that, just like ANY OTHER PERSON, I would be the most logical person to listen to when reacting to others telling ME, or even lecturing me on, what I and my confederates allegedly DO believe. Just as any other Orthodox Christian would be more logical to consult on his or her beliefs than not to consult them, merely surmising what they believe. Just as any person deserves to have a say when THEIR stance or opinion, on any matter, is being discussed. In my case, this is not merely an opinion but, yes, some expertise in the matter. The difference between max Mueller and Mircea Eliade, in my opinion (this is indeed a private opinion), is much greater than that between either and the official line of Moscow Patriarchate. At any rate, I represent none of these three. Even as an Orthodox Christian, I do not belong to the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate, neither would I ever aspire or care to become their spokesperson. Not a single hit in any of your attempts to shoot me, Vitaly. Eliade or no Eliade, the Theotokos is not a deity for those who venerate Her. Dear child (of God, not of Eliade), do your homework before entering a discussion like this--to avoid being had for breakfast by bitches like myself. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From johanna at BERKELEY.EDU Thu Sep 9 03:14:49 2010 From: johanna at BERKELEY.EDU (Johanna Nichols) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 20:14:49 -0700 Subject: Assistant professorship in Slavic linguistics Message-ID: The Department of Slavic Languages and Literatures, University of California, Berkeley, invites applications for a position in Slavic linguistics, Assistant Professor (tenure track), to begin on 1 July 2011. We seek candidates with broad specialization in Slavic linguistics, expert knowledge of Russian and at least one other Slavic language (plus some knowledge of other languages of East Europe and Eurasia), training in the cultures of the area, and competence in language pedagogy. The candidate is expected to contribute to the undergraduate and graduate programs in Slavic Languages and Literatures and in neighboring fields, including linguistics. Interdisciplinary interests and expertise are desirable. Demonstrated research excellence and teaching ability (and a PhD degree) are required. Please submit letter of application, curriculum vitae, and a sample of scholarship (hard copies and electronic files) and three letters of recommendation (hard copies). Applicants should refer their referees to the UC Berkeley Statement of Confidentiality at  http://apo.chance.berkeley.edu/evalltr.html. Application must be postmarked no later than November 15, 2010; early applications are encouraged. Interviews will be held at the AATSEEL convention on January 6-9, 2011. UCB is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer. The campus is especially interested in candidates who will contribute to diversity and equal opportunity in higher education. Send materials by mail to: Irina Paperno, Department Chair Attention: Slavic linguistics search Department of Slavic Languages and Literatures 6303 Dwinelle Hall University of California Berkeley, CA 94720-2979 tel. 510-642-2979 Electronic files: Moriah VanVleet, Academic Personnel Assistant (This message posted by Johanna Nichols, UC Berkeley.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From elena.ostrovskaya at GMAIL.COM Thu Sep 9 06:15:51 2010 From: elena.ostrovskaya at GMAIL.COM (Elena Ostrovskaya) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 10:15:51 +0400 Subject: help finding book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Annie, The book is, anyway, out of stock in the main bookstores, both online and physical, so the only options I can see are to write to the publisher (their site is http://inostrankabooks.ru/) for they might have some copies left, or get back to reading from the screen. Best, Elena. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Philippe.FRISON at COE.INT Thu Sep 9 06:52:29 2010 From: Philippe.FRISON at COE.INT (FRISON Philippe) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 08:52:29 +0200 Subject: Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: It seems the whole discussion is drifting away from the purpose of this list, which is "Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures" (curiously enough not "cultures"). Being a "simple" (and not standard) (Roman) Catholic French layman, I would rather be shocked but those posts which assimilate Mary to a deity, if there had not been so much logorrhea said on religions by people who do not care about seriously studying them. Those list members who are interested in such subjects would be best advised to read such works as Michel Onfray's 'In Defence of Atheism: The Case Against Christianity, Judaism and Islam', an English translation of his "traite d'atheologie", issued in 2005, or, closer to the list purpose, Soviet atheist works. All approaches (historic, psycho-analytic, litterary, philosophical, exegetic etc.) can be fruitful to make better undestand why the "Opium for the people" is still very much alive at the beginning of the 21st Century. I would very much like an earnest discussion on those currents which revive(d) "official" religions, under the influence of such men or women as Alexander Men, Maria Skobtsova (http://zarubezhje.narod.ru/mp/m_019.htm), Mary Ward, Francis of Assisi, Ignacius of Loyola, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Albert Schweitzer, Roger of Taize, Jean Vanier etc. Again, the discussion on subjects such as whether Christmas is just a Christian "reprocessing" or adaptation of the Winter solstice has not much to do with the purpose of this list. On the contrary, I would welcome a discussion on influences of Pagan practices in today's Russian such as those linked with 'Mother Earth' or the idea of paradise for Russian people. Regards Philippe Frison (Strasbourg, France) -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Vitalii Cherednichenko Sent: Wednesday 8 September 2010 23:56 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix Dear colleagues, regarding the ongoing fascinating discussion on the Coredemptrix term I wonder if there is a room to respond to the following issues that relate both to the style and to the essential subject-matter of the discussed: 1) When Professor Olga Meerson informs the list that: "what I, OLGA, believe and confess, say, in the Nicene Creed and in my prayers, I probably know more than you do, no..." --> does she claim that "her" (i.e. "Olga's") personal views and beliefs are to be observed as *the standard* and the most representative ones for the entire Orthodox Christianity? And it is up to "I Olga" to decide upon what is right and what is wrong? I do not see an easy way to understand why Olga Meerson seems to position herself as "the" Source on what Orthodox Christians think and feel? Don't we need to consult let's say, some Levada Centr anymore? Let us, then blindly subscribe to Olga's words and this will be the right to do. 1-a) Can we relate the somewhat surprising pathos of Olga Meerson's emotional address to Rolf Fieguth with the latter's finest explanation of "coredemptrix" as "soiskupitel'nica", a Russian equivalent term that was omitted in the previous answers? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Thu Sep 9 11:32:32 2010 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 12:32:32 +0100 Subject: Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: <1983621787.4506.1283968110065.JavaMail.root@mbox01.in.post.sk> Message-ID: Ralph hits the nail on the head and I agree with him absolutely. The phrase objected to in Daniel's message was "Mary is a very significant and powerful deity for Orthodox believers." This is a categorical statement and is factually untrue. If he had said "In Orthodox belief the reverence accorded to Mary is tantamount to the worship of a deity" this would have been a provocative statement of his own polemic attitude to Christianity but at least it would have been one with which it is possible to agreed or disagree in an academic argument, since it would not have claimed as a fact that Mary is worshipped by the Orthodox as a "deity". Daniel, given his background, must surely know this and should re-phrase his tendentious text. With regard to the original word which gave rise to this correspondence, "coredemptrix", it is a descriptive appellation which has not yet been subjected to the Western scholastic passion for definition, which the Orthodox tend to resist, and is not an article of faith for Catholics, though many would like it to be. Personally I hope it will remain as no more than one of the many poetic appellations of Mary in the litanies (who would want to define "Star of the Sea"?) and will never be dogmatically defined because although the underlying belief is not new or startling, the hopelessly neo-Latin term itself gives rise to both honest misunderstanding and deliberate misrepresentation. For the probably small and bemused number of SEELANGers who have followed this thread, there is a sober history of "co-redemptrix" in the entry in Wikipedia, albeit from a largely Catholic viewpoint. Will On 08/09/2010 18:48, R. M. Cleminson wrote: > Es tut mir Leid, aber ein Tisch ist ein Tisch. (For the dire > consequences of ignoring this basic principle, see the well-known > short story by Peter Bichsel.) Words mean what they mean. A deity > is a being of a completely different nature (essentia, οὐσία) from a > human being. Nobody in the Christian community (whether Orthodox, > Roman Catholic, or any other denomination) regards Mary as a deity. > Nobody in the Christian community (nor, a fortiori, outside it) > behaves in such a way as to allow her to be classified > phenomenologically as a deity, by offering her the worship (λατρεία) > which is due to the Deity alone. Therefore it is not a matter of > personal beliefs, nor of whether one's expertise is in the field of > Slavonic studies or religious studies: to say that Mary is a deity is > simply WRONG, in the same way that it is wrong to say that "domum" is > locative when it is in fact accusative. > > It is not obligatory to believe in the object of one's study. It is, > however, necessary to use words correctly if one aspires to academic > respectability. > > > > ----- Originálna správa ----- Odosielateľ: "Daniel > Rancour-Laferriere" Komu: > SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Dátum: utorok, september 7, 2010 10:14:27 > Predmet: Re: [SEELANGS] AW: [SEELANGS] AW: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix > > Dear Olga and Rolf, I initially asked only for a potential Russian > translation of the word "coredemptrix," doubting that it would exist, > or at least doubting that it would be meaningful in the Orthodox > context, since I had previously published an entire book on > veneration of the Mother of God in Russia and did not recall any > notion of a coredeemer among Russian Orthodox believers or > theologians. Then I made the mistake of copying a footnote from my > book in progress about Christian attitudes toward Mary. The book is > not about Slavic studies, but is more properly in the field of > religious studies. There are atheists in this latter field, and I am > one of them. However, SEELANGS is a list for Slavists, so I will not > comment on the theological assertions which have been made here. I > do welcome any information (off-list) from you about any books or > articles which you have published about Mary. > > With regards, Daniel R-L. > > > On Sep 7, 2010, at 1:26 AM, FIEGUTH Rolf wrote: > > Dear Olga, > > you are quite right in stating that Mary cannot be a deity for > Christian believers, even for Her most ardent and deepest venerators. > But it is precisely for this very reason that "coredemptrix" is an > inacceptable concept and term outside the Roman Catholic Church, > since it puts Mary on the same level as Jesus Christ. Best wishes to > you and Daniel, > > Rolf Fieguth ________________________________________ Von: SEELANGS: > Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list > [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] im Auftrag von Olga Meerson > [meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU] Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. September 2010 > 04:30 An: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Betreff: Re: [SEELANGS] AW: [SEELANGS] > Coredemptrix > > Mary is NOT a deity, at least not for Orthodox or roman Catholic > believers. Daniel, if you write such a thing, it is like claiming > that Russians' reverence for Pushkin proves they [ we believe he is a > god. A nice metaphor but not true literally. Not all veneration is > deifying. Certainly not the veneration of the Mother of God in the > eyes of those who venerate Her. Isn't it logical that they should be > consulted on what they believe? If you write that She is "an > important deity" for the Orthodox, be prepared for the whole > publication you are contributing to to be compromised by such a > statement. perhaps there is other compromising evidence in your book > but I hope not so. It is amazing how the same people who uphold > fairly high standards for their own fields of scholarship say all > kinds of nonsense about religion and theology! There are things to > know about theological matters, and if you don't know them, it is > prudent not to talk about them--if only to uphold your own intellec! > tu! al reputation. Respectfully, o.m. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface > at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web > Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web > Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _____________________________________________________________________ > > http://sport.sme.sk - Najkomplexnejsie informacie zo sportu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface > at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Thu Sep 9 12:28:06 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 08:28:06 -0400 Subject: Coredemptrix: apologies from o.m. In-Reply-To: <42E8F3C1A8950C4DB7DFF5833AA7FAD103859E03@OBELIX.key.coe.int> Message-ID: Thank you Philippe, thank you Ralph, Rolph, Will, Dan, and all, especially Vitalii. You have cleared up my mind on some of the relevant matters. I guess the main difference one should keep in mind here is the difference between a testimony and speaking for others. I have attempted the former (a testimony). In testimony, speaking for others, whether with or without authority, is impossible-- a witness is always alone, as his or her choice to testify is always personal. The misunderstanding of this distinction is unfortunate but inevitable for any audiences accustomed to challenging, or establishing, a purely human authority on all matters. In such circumstances, it is just inevitable that anyone testifying about their own faith, even about its objective articles, would sound arrogant and presumptuous. It was really wrong of me to misjudge the audience, assuming that the SEELANGS members would be interested in the difference between testimony and speaking for others. Misjudgin! g ! one's audience always causes tensions and misunderstandings. The fault of this wrong judgment is mine, and so should be the apologies. They are, all mine. o.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK Thu Sep 9 13:41:05 2010 From: Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK (Simon Beattie) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 14:41:05 +0100 Subject: Maxime Shottland Message-ID: Has anyone on the list ever come across a writer called Maxime S[c]hottland? A short report in The New York Times from June 1908 calls him "a young Russian author who has passed most of his life in England and America" who is about to open a theatre in Paris "where an English or American author is able to produce pieces debarred by the prudery of London or New York". The only published work of his I can find is "The Iron Passport" (presumably a novel) from 1914. I have also found newspaper reports cited online for various court cases, but I haven't verified those yet. Has anyone ever heard of him? Simon Simon Beattie Antiquarian books and music 84 The Broadway | Chesham | Buckinghamshire | HP5 1EG | UK tel. +44 (0)1494 784954 | mobile/voicemail +44 (0)7717 707575 | e-mail simon at simonbeattie.co.uk VAT no. GB 983 5355 83 Join me on Facebook . ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From luciano.dicocco at TIN.IT Thu Sep 9 13:49:58 2010 From: luciano.dicocco at TIN.IT (Luciano Di Cocco) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 15:49:58 +0200 Subject: R: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: <4C88C5D0.6040405@sas.ac.uk> Message-ID: Although Roman Catholics have a vision of Mary that other Christians may find problematic, nor standard dogma nor (as far as I know) folk religion consider her a deity. In R.C. theology she shares a unique character with the Son, being preserved from sin but not from the suffering derived from sin. Which I find a beautiful poetic character, but other may disagree. Personally I'm an atheist, so I'm not speaking from any kind of faith. The standard definition of R.C. theology can be found here: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p6.htm Even in folk religion she is not considered a deity. As for the saints her intercessionary role is often forgotten, but she is not considered a deity. Nor in the case of Mary any true identification (apart from obvious iconic ones as a mother) with pagan deity is supported by facts. Very often Gnosticism is cited, but even in their peculiar form of Christianity her divinity is never asserted. In Gnosticism Jesus was often considered a different deity from God the Father, and often a distinction was made between New Testament and Old Testament God. No reference to Mary as a deity is attested, as far as I know. There are indeed in Italian folk religion some association from Christanity and pre-christian cults. On this point I am curious of parallels in the Slavic world. Especially in central Italy it used to be strong the figure of the Befana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Befana), probably a corruption of the name "Epiphany". Clearly a good witch, maybe connected with the Sabinian goddess Strina. In the local form (Tuscany) as a child there was a tradition on the Epiphany night to leave a glass of wine for the Befana, some hay for her donkey (our Befana didn't fly) and some flour on the floor to reveal the Befana steps (which looked remarkably similar to that of the mother). Is there something similar in the Slavic world. I'm just curious. In northern Italy instead gift for children were taken on Christmas night, and the child addressed their wish list to Baby Jesus (in Tuscany we addressed the Befana). There is a joke from an Italian Comedian referring to "Those who think that Santa Claus is Baby Jesus grown up". Is there any parallel in Slavic culture? There is a sense in which many Italian children perceived Baby Jesus as a different entity from Jesus the Redemptor syudied at Sunday School (which in Italy tended not to be only on Sunday). Did Orthodox children risk similar strange misconceptions? By the way, Befana tradition was very widespread in the Church State in central Italy, and as far as I know never really contrasted by the papacy. Luciano Di Cocco > With regard to the original word which gave rise to this > correspondence, > "coredemptrix", it is a descriptive appellation which has not yet been > subjected to the Western scholastic passion for definition, which the > Orthodox tend to resist, and is not an article of faith for Catholics, > though many would like it to be. Personally I hope it will remain as no > more than one of the many poetic appellations of Mary in the litanies > (who would want to define "Star of the Sea"?) and will never be > dogmatically defined because although the underlying belief is not new > or startling, the hopelessly neo-Latin term itself gives rise to both > honest misunderstanding and deliberate misrepresentation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulr at RUSSIANLIFE.NET Thu Sep 9 14:07:51 2010 From: paulr at RUSSIANLIFE.NET (Paul Richardson) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 10:07:51 -0400 Subject: Classroom issues of Russian Life magazine Message-ID: Is your school or university on the list below? If so, your Russian language program is missing out on the opportunity to receive FREE classroom issues of Russian Life under the "Language Through Culture" program supported by the Russkiy Mir Foundation and private donations. Russian language teachers have embraced this program as an effective way to build interest in Russian language study and to keep students studying. The magazine encourages an active interest in Russian culture, history, society and life lights a fire in students... (Plus, each issue during the school year includes a special language learning insert, tying the magazine's subject matter into a lesson plan.) Schools (in the US only) receive free issues, often up to one for every two students, and must merely keep their address information up to date, distribute the issues as they see fit, and evaluate the program at year's end, through a simple online survey. For more information on the program and its genesis nearly a decade ago, visit: http://www.russianlife.com/educpatr.cfm ----------- SCHOOLS WITH UNCONFIRMED DATA ------- IF YOUR SCHOOL IS ON THIS LIST, and you want to participate (and be the contact person), email us at orders at russianlife.com and we will make the switch in our records. ---------------------------------------- A.C. Flora High School (Columbia, SC) Abraham Lincoln High School (Brooklyn, NY) ACTR/ACCELS (Washington, DC) Adams High School (Rochester Hills, MI) Amherst Regional High School (Amherst, MA) Arsenal Technical High School (Indianapolis, IN) Auburn University (Auburn University, AL) Bard College (Annandale-on-Hudson, NY) Barger Academy of Fine Arts (Chattanooga, TN) Barnard College - Slavic Dept (New York, NY) Bartlett High School (Anchorage, AK) Baylor Unv. (Waco, TX) Beloit College (Beloit, WI) Bethlehem High School (Delmar, NY) Boston University (Boston, MA) Bowdoin College (Brunswick, ME) Bowie High School (Bowie, MD) Bowling Green State University (Bowling Green, OH) Brighton High School (Rochester, NY) Brookdale Community College (Lincroft, NJ) Brookfield High School (Brookfield, CT) Brooklyn College - Modern Lang (Brooklyn, NY) Bryn Mawr (Bryn Mawr, PA) Buckingham Browne & Nichols (Cambridge, MA) Cherry Creek High School (Englewood, CO) Chippewa Falls High School (Chippewa Falls, WI) Chugiak High School (Chugiak, AK) College of the Holy Cross (Worcester, MA) College of William & Mary (Williamsburg, VA) Colorado College (Colorado Springs, CO) Colts Neck High School (Colts Neck, NJ) Columbus Alternative High Sch (Columbus, OH) Cornell University (Ithaca, NY) Davidson College (Davidson, NC) Davis District EDNET (Kaysville, UT) Davis Middle School (San Antonio, TX) Delta School (Juneau, AK) Dickinson College (Carlisle, PA) Duke University (Durham, NC) Eagle Rock Junior High School (Idaho Falls, ID) Edward R. Murrow High School (Brooklyn, NY) Emory University (Atlanta, GA) Fordham University (Bronx, NY) Franklin & Marshall College (Lancaster, PA) Franklin High School (Portland, OR) Freehold Township High School (Freehold, NJ) Furr Senior High School (Houston, TX) Georgetown University (Washington, DC) Georgia Inst. of Technology (Atlanta, GA) Glastonbury High School (Glastonbury, CT) Grand Valley State University (Allendale, MI) Grinnell College (Grinnell, IA) Harvard University (Cambridge, MA) Harvard University Slavic Dept (Cambridge, MA) Henry Foss High School (Tacoma, WA) Intermediate District 287 (Plymouth, MN) Iowa State University (Ames, IA) John Burroughs High School (St Louis, MO) John Carroll University (University Heights, OH) Kellam High School (Virginia Beach, VA) Knox College (Galesburg, IL) Louisiana SU (Baton Rouge, LA) Loyola University (Chicago, IL) Macalester College (St. Paul, MN) Maplewood School (Watervliet, NY) Marlboro High School (Marlboro, NJ) Michigan State University (East Lansing, MI) Milford High School (Highland, MI) New Jersey City University (Jersey City, NJ) North Carolina State Univ. (Raleigh, NC) Northern Illinois Univ. (DeKalb, IL) Northern University H S (Cedar Falls, IA) Northwestern Univ. (Evanston, IL) Oberlin College (Oberlin, OH) Oregon State University (Corvallis, OR) Oxford Hills Comprehensive High School (South Paris, ME) Pearl Creek Elementary (Fairbanks, AK) Pennsylvania State University (University Park, PA) Pima Community College East (Tucson, AZ) Pine Creek High School (Colorado Springs, CO) Poughkeepsie Day School (Poughkeepsie, NY) Princeton High School (Cincinnati, OH) Randolph College (Lynchburg, VA) Robert Goddard F.I. (Rehoboth Beach, DE) Romulus Central School (Romulus, NY) Roosevelt High School (Chicago, IL) Saint Mary Central High School (Neenah, WI) San Diego State University (San Diego, CA) San Francisco State University (San Francisco, CA) Shaker High School (Latham, NY) Shawnee Mission South (Shawnee Mission, KS) Silver Spring Intl Middle School (Silver Spring, MD) Smith College (Northampton, MA) South Shore (Port Wing, WI) South Summit High School (Kamas, UT) Sparta High School (Sparta, NJ) St John's University (Jamaica, NY) St. John's High School (Shrewsbury, MA) St. Paul Academy (St. Paul, MN) Stanford University (Stanford, CA) SUNY, New Paltz (New Paltz, NY) SUNY, Stony Brook (Stony Brook, NY) SUNY-Albany (Albany, NY) Tafolla Middle School (San Antonio, TX) Texas A & M (College Station, TX) The Bronx HS of Science (Bronx, NY) The Norwich Free Academy (Norwich, CT) Towson University (Towson, MD) Trinity Lutheran School (Norman, OK) Tufts University (Medford, MA) Tulane University (New Orleans, LA) Turner-Drew Language Academy (Chicago, IL) UCLA International Institute (Los Angeles, CA) UNC Chapel Hill (Chapel Hill, NC) UNH Dept of Lang, Lit, Culture (Durham, NH) Univ of Alaska Fairbanks (Fairbanks, AK) Univ of CA, Irvine (Irvine, CA) Univ of CA, Berkeley (Berkeley, CA) Univ of CA, Davis (Davis, CA) Univ of CA, Los Angeles (Los Angeles, CA) Univ of CA, Riverside (Riverside, CA) Univ of CA, San Diego (La Jolla, CA) Univ of Chicago (Chicago, IL) Univ of Delaware (Newark, DE) Univ of Denver (Denver, CO) Univ of Pittsburgh (Pittsburgh, PA) Univ of Toronto (Toronto, ON) Univ of Virginia (Charlottesville, VA) Univ of Washington (Seattle, WA) Univ of Wisconsin (Madison, WI) Univ of Wisconsin Madison (Madison, WI) Univ. of Houston (Houston, TX) Univ. of North Texas (Denton, TX) Univ. of Pennsylvania (Philadelphia, PA) Univ. of Wisconsin, Milwaukee (Milwaukee, WI) Univ. of Wyoming (Laramie, WY) University of Illinois - REEEC (Champaign, IL) University of Illinois Champaign-Urbana (Urbana, IL) Valley High School (West Des Moines, IA) Vassar College (Poughkeepsie, NY) Vineland High School (Vineland, NJ) Washington & Jefferson College (Washington, PA) Washington State Univ. (Pullman, WA) Western Dubuque High School (Epworth, IA) Western Michigan University (Kalamazoo, MI) Wheaton College (Norton, MA) (NOT ON THIS LIST, but want to see if your school is getting issues and you just didn't know about it? Visit here): http://www.russianlife.com/educpatr2.cfm Schools listed in Red are getting issues... ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From brewerm at U.LIBRARY.ARIZONA.EDU Thu Sep 9 14:54:04 2010 From: brewerm at U.LIBRARY.ARIZONA.EDU (Brewer, Michael) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 07:54:04 -0700 Subject: help finding book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Annie, If the book is completely out of print and unavailable in any format at a reasonable price (new or used), you can ask a US library with a copy of the book in their collections (check Worldcat) to make you a copy of the entire text of the book, assuming that you are going to be using the book for individual research and study purposes. This is allowed under section 108 of US Copyright law. Take a look at the Section 108 Spinner, an online tool (primarily targeted at librarians and archivists) that can give you more information on the various criteria that must be met for this exception to be utilized. http://librarycopyright.net/108spinner/ Please let me know if you have any questions. mb Michael M. Brewer Chair, ASEEES Committee on Libraries & Information Resources University of Arizona Libraries -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Elena Ostrovskaya Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 11:16 PM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] help finding book? Dear Annie, The book is, anyway, out of stock in the main bookstores, both online and physical, so the only options I can see are to write to the publisher (their site is http://inostrankabooks.ru/) for they might have some copies left, or get back to reading from the screen. Best, Elena. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From zielinski at GMX.CH Thu Sep 9 16:18:48 2010 From: zielinski at GMX.CH (Jan Zielinski) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 18:18:48 +0200 Subject: Maxime Shottland In-Reply-To: <00c401cb5024$a740d600$f5c28200$@co.uk> Message-ID: Simon Beattie pisze: > Has anyone on the list ever come across a writer called Maxime S[c]hottland? > A short report in The New York Times from June 1908 calls him "a young > Russian author who has passed most of his life in England and America" who > is about to open a theatre in Paris "where an English or American author is > able to produce pieces debarred by the prudery of London or New York". The > only published work of his I can find is "The Iron Passport" (presumably a > novel) from 1914. I have also found newspaper reports cited online for > various court cases, but I haven't verified those yet. > > > > Has anyone ever heard of him? It's me again, Simon. It was a colourful person, it seems. He used sometimes "Maximilian" and "Maxime-Milian" (!) as forms of his first name and "Baron Maxime de Sheyder Shottland" as his title. On November 24, 1911, he appeared at the Jefferson Market Court (NY) to defend the honour of his guest, Mrs Alma Hayne, "who would have it that she is the granddaughter of Franz Joseph of Austria and the daughter of Crown Prinz Rudolph and Baroness Marie Vetzera" ("N.Y.T."), apparently insulted by a hotel manager. Until 1914 he was co-proprietor of the paper "The Tourist" in London. http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/28837/pages/4498/page.pdf His wife's portrait, an expresssive pastel done by Ossip Perelman, was shown at the Knoedler Galleries in New York in November 1916. He received a bankruptcy order in London in December 1916: http://www.edinburgh-gazette.co.uk/issues/13028/pages/2379/page.pdf In October 1917 a judgement was filed against him in New York County by H. Miller et al. for USD 174.60. And so on and so forth. Hope that helps, Jan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK Thu Sep 9 16:27:43 2010 From: Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK (Simon Beattie) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 17:27:43 +0100 Subject: Maxime Shottland In-Reply-To: <4C8908E8.9090904@gmx.ch> Message-ID: Thanks, Jan. Yes, he does seem a colourful character. I have a photograph of him and am trying to work out exactly who he was. Simon -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Jan Zielinski Sent: 09 September 2010 17:19 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Maxime Shottland Simon Beattie pisze: > Has anyone on the list ever come across a writer called Maxime S[c]hottland? > A short report in The New York Times from June 1908 calls him "a young > Russian author who has passed most of his life in England and America" who > is about to open a theatre in Paris "where an English or American author is > able to produce pieces debarred by the prudery of London or New York". The > only published work of his I can find is "The Iron Passport" (presumably a > novel) from 1914. I have also found newspaper reports cited online for > various court cases, but I haven't verified those yet. > > > > Has anyone ever heard of him? It's me again, Simon. It was a colourful person, it seems. He used sometimes "Maximilian" and "Maxime-Milian" (!) as forms of his first name and "Baron Maxime de Sheyder Shottland" as his title. On November 24, 1911, he appeared at the Jefferson Market Court (NY) to defend the honour of his guest, Mrs Alma Hayne, "who would have it that she is the granddaughter of Franz Joseph of Austria and the daughter of Crown Prinz Rudolph and Baroness Marie Vetzera" ("N.Y.T."), apparently insulted by a hotel manager. Until 1914 he was co-proprietor of the paper "The Tourist" in London. http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/28837/pages/4498/page.pdf His wife's portrait, an expresssive pastel done by Ossip Perelman, was shown at the Knoedler Galleries in New York in November 1916. He received a bankruptcy order in London in December 1916: http://www.edinburgh-gazette.co.uk/issues/13028/pages/2379/page.pdf In October 1917 a judgement was filed against him in New York County by H. Miller et al. for USD 174.60. And so on and so forth. Hope that helps, Jan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU Thu Sep 9 17:20:07 2010 From: hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU (Hugh McLean) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 10:20:07 -0700 Subject: Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bravo! Beautifully argued. > Dear colleagues, > > regarding the ongoing fascinating discussion on the Coredemptrix term > I wonder if there is a room to respond to the following issues that > relate both to the style and to the essential subject-matter of the > discussed: > > 1) When Professor Olga Meerson informs the list that: "what I, OLGA, > believe and confess, say, in the Nicene Creed and in my prayers, I > probably know more than you do, no..." --> does she claims the "her" > (i.e. "Olga's") personal views and beliefs are to be observed as *the > standard* and the most representative ones for the entire Orthodox > Christianity? And it is up to "I Olga" to decide upon what is right > and what is wrong? I do not see an easy way to understand why Olga > Meerson seems to position herself as "the" Source on what Orthodox > Christians think and feel? Don't we need to consult let's say, some > Levada Centr anymore? Let us, then blindly subscribe to Olga's words > and this will be the right to do. > 1-a) Can we relate the somewhat surprising pathos of Olga Meerson's > emotional address to Rolf Fieguth with the latter's finest explanation > of "coredemptrix" as "soiskupitel'nica", a Russian equivalent term > that was omitted in the previous answers? > > 2) Agreeing that the Dogma of Modern Christianity does not relate Mary > to "deity" we, as scholars (and not only as "believers", --> remember, > that the believer = believes and the scholar researches) may not > forget the broader historical context of this subject. Let me just > remind the well known facts that relate the Mother of Christ to > Sophia, to the Great Mother-Goddess traditions, and so forth. They all > correspond to the image of Mary. Shall we be interested in the History > of Religions in the sense of Max Mueller and Mircea Eliade, or we'd > rather stick to the Moskovskaia -Patrirchija, or the like dogmatic > "prescriptions"? Shall we remember the term "archetype" in the History > of Religions and what it stands for, or shall we rather not? What > archetype does the Virgin Mary represents? No Mother-Goddess archetype > at all? > Our beloved and omnipotent Wikipedia rightly mentions that: "there are > mystic undercurrents which emphasize the feminine aspects of the > Godhead, e.g. the Collyridians in the time of early Christianity, who > viewed Mary as a goddess, the medieval visionary Julian of Norwich, > the Judaic Shekinah and the Gnostic Sophia traditions.". > In the same vein we must not forget the versatile work > of Joseph Campbell who also argues that the image of the Virgin Mary > was derived from the image of Isis and her child Horus: "The antique > model for the Madonna, actually, is Isis with Horus at her breast". > Totally subscribing to R. M. Cleminson's wise citation on Es tut mir > Leid, aber ein Tisch ist ein Tisch, I'd rather suggest we would deal > with Christianity in a broader religious paradigmatic perspective, > remembering where the religion was born, etc. The Gnostic and other > Sophianic ideas here should be extremely relevant. And above all not > to forget the apt expression by Max Mueller "The on who knows only one > religion knows none". Thus, if dealing with the Virgin Mary as a > deity, we may relate it to the broader archetype (of Isis, etc), > rather than just sticking it up to what one particular believer, be it > Olga Meerson or any other. The luxury of being a scholar, rather than > a believer, is the ability to transcend the traditional dogmatic > boundaries the regular adept of this Patriarchate or another can > hardly afford. > > With regards to the list, > Vitalii. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From giulianovivaldi at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 9 17:23:45 2010 From: giulianovivaldi at HOTMAIL.COM (Giuliano Vivaldi) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 18:23:45 +0100 Subject: another bibliographical query : Ugo Nebbia on Stepan Erzia (and accounts of Erzia in Argentina) In-Reply-To: <4C8908E8.9090904@gmx.ch> Message-ID: Dear Seelangers, I have a request that Italians on this list maybe able to help me. I have come across an account of Erzia's stay in Italy with a quote from what I believe is a book (biographical or novelised biography) by an 'ispettore dei Musei Lombardi', Ugo Nebbia. The books title(if it is a book and not a review and I have some doubts as to whether it might be a review) is 'Il Viandante' and it was published in Milan in 1910. Various books by Nebbia are available through on-line bookstores (Amazon & Abebooks) but not this one. Any help would be much appreciated. Any further leads on books on the Argentinian period of Erzia's life would also be much appreciated - whether published in Spanish or Russian (I have two Spanish titles on my list by an A.Kann and an I.G Zaldivar in Spanish). Any leads would be very welcome. Regards, Giuliano Vivaldi giulianovivaldi at hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From anne.o.fisher at GMAIL.COM Thu Sep 9 17:38:18 2010 From: anne.o.fisher at GMAIL.COM (Anne Fisher) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 10:38:18 -0700 Subject: help finding book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you, Michael, Elena, and Paul! With all of your suggestions I should be able to lay hands on a copy. All the best, Annie On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Brewer, Michael < brewerm at u.library.arizona.edu> wrote: > Annie, > > If the book is completely out of print and unavailable in any format at a > reasonable price (new or used), you can ask a US library with a copy of the > book in their collections (check Worldcat) to make you a copy of the entire > text of the book, assuming that you are going to be using the book for > individual research and study purposes. This is allowed under section 108 > of US Copyright law. Take a look at the Section 108 Spinner, an online tool > (primarily targeted at librarians and archivists) that can give you more > information on the various criteria that must be met for this exception to > be utilized. http://librarycopyright.net/108spinner/ > > Please let me know if you have any questions. > > mb > > Michael M. Brewer > Chair, ASEEES Committee on Libraries & Information Resources > University of Arizona Libraries > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list > [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Elena Ostrovskaya > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 11:16 PM > To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] help finding book? > > Dear Annie, > The book is, anyway, out of stock in the main bookstores, both online and > physical, so the only options I can see are to write to the publisher > (their > site is http://inostrankabooks.ru/) for they might have some copies left, > or > get back to reading from the screen. > Best, > Elena. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Anne O. Fisher, Ph.D. Russian Interpreter and Translator anne.o.fisher at gmail.com 440-986-0175 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ewb2 at CORNELL.EDU Thu Sep 9 18:28:03 2010 From: ewb2 at CORNELL.EDU (E Wayles Browne) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 14:28:03 -0400 Subject: Was Re: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: <1983621787.4506.1283968110065.JavaMail.root@mbox01.in.post.sk> Message-ID: This has been a fascinating discussion. I'm always glad to hear from Olga Meerson, who can speak with authority on Orthodoxy both from extensive knowledge and from long participation in the community. But the discussion has also made me think about a more linguistic topic: the multiple meanings of the prefix co-. Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary says it rather clearly: "1: with; together; joint; jointly 2: in or to the same degree 3a: one that is associated in an action with another; fellow; partner b: having a usually lesser share in duty or responsibility: alternate; deputy ..." The prefix wasn't used much in classical Latin in meaning 3a or 3b; there are many nouns beginning with com-, con-, col-, cor-, and co-, but very few of them mean 'fellow anything'. A conservus was indeed a fellow slave, but a corruptor was by no means a fellow breaker. So these 'together; same; associated; deputy' meanings must have become more widely used in medieval Latin and then spread to modern languages. If I am somebody's coauthor or coworker, that person is also my coauthor or coworker; but if I am a copilot to a pilot, the pilot is not my copilot. 3a is about symmetrical relationships whereas 3b is about asymmetrical relationships. In the religious context, it is evidently necessary to reject the view that Mary is a co- anything to Jesus in meaning 3a, but seemingly co- in sense 3b could be used with various agent nouns to tell about her roles? -- Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics Department of Linguistics Morrill Hall 220, Cornell University Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A. tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h) fax 607-255-2044 (write FOR W. BROWNE) e-mail ewb2 at cornell.edu ________________________________ From: "R. M. Cleminson" Reply-To: "SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list" Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 13:48:30 -0400 To: Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix Es tut mir Leid, aber ein Tisch ist ein Tisch. (For the dire consequences of ignoring this basic principle, see the well-known short story by Peter Bichsel.) Words mean what they mean. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From anne.o.fisher at GMAIL.COM Thu Sep 9 18:43:05 2010 From: anne.o.fisher at GMAIL.COM (Anne Fisher) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 11:43:05 -0700 Subject: russian podcasts Message-ID: Hello all, I've compiled the list of people's favorite podcasts, as promised. Favorite sites for podcasts include: - http://rpod.ru/podcasts/ - http://www.svobodanews.ru/ - http://www.sras.org/library_russian_language Individual podcasts include: - from Radio Svoboda: Dokumenty proshlogo, Poverkh bar'erov with Ivan Tolstoi. - also on Svoboda: 2000-2100 itogi broadcast, as well as some of Vremya i mir and Grani Vremeni (I like both Irina Lagunin and Vladimir Karamurza). On the weekends, I listen to S Khristinskoi Tochka Zreniya and other weekly analysis programs. - Seva Novgorodtsev of the BBC, the programme BiBiSeva: novosti s chelovecheskim litsom. It is not really a news programme, it is a collage of curious soundbites from the world's media with extensive commentary in Russian from most unusual sources. You can easily find the daily podcast on the BBC Russian Service site. - BBC has one called Вам Слова.  It's not a podcast, but a call-in show. http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/radio/2009/04/000000_radio_slovo.shtml - I also listen to Piatyi etazh from the BBC World Service (. - If you check out itunes, you can find utro on BBC with some suggestions of other programs at the bottom of the page. - I enjoy some of the podcasts from Deutsche Welle that are available through iTunes and was upset when they cut them back to just eight minutes or so each a few months ago. I listen to Nauka i tekhnika and Chital'nyi zal. If I remember rightly, there is a business one available, too. - at http://rpod.ru/podcasts/ - I like the one from NovaRadio and I also like the (pardon me) сиськи-письки шоу - although clearly this one is going to have plenty of language. Many thanks to the list for these suggestions! All the best, Annie -- Anne O. Fisher, Ph.D. Russian Interpreter and Translator anne.o.fisher at gmail.com 440-986-0175 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mdenner at STETSON.EDU Thu Sep 9 18:46:32 2010 From: mdenner at STETSON.EDU (Michael Denner) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 14:46:32 -0400 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age In-Reply-To: <7729527.1283974617270.JavaMail.mtsmith02@ysu.edu> Message-ID: I waste zero time teaching cursive--they need to learn to recognize Russian handwriting (I write on the board) but I think teaching пропись is a waste of valuable resources. Some students WANT to learn it, and I help them out. But for all written work I accept printed (печатные буквы) Russian. I send 4-6 students a year to Russia and I've never heard a complaint. One of my first assignments is for them to download an ASDF keyboard (like Russian for Gringos) or use translit.ru and type me a message. We do a lot of free-writing and I require all of it to be sent by email to me for correction. Finally, I'm slowly moving away even from worrying about typing skills and encouraging students to record dialogues, essays, even their homework assignments. It's something new for me this year, aided in part by the great site vocaroo.com, which allows students to make quick recordings online and post them easily. I'm requiring them to submit the audio files through our class blog (bearinahat.blogspot.com) so they don't fill my inbox. (You can see a few early submissions there already--mostly recordings of poetry.) This move to recordings is a response to changes in the ways that students communicate: I asked my students recently about their email habits. To a one, they said "The only time I use email is to communicate with my professors." Gosh, I'm so old I remember email being new. Times they are a'changin... Oh, and, if you DO still teach handwriting, I cannot recommend highly enough the very cool Primo and Tempo fonts here: http://nekin.narod.ru/e25.htm They're true handwriting fonts, and use a complex macro to connect letters using a variety of liaisons. You'll need to download the documents and fonts, read the instructions carefully. But the results are really impressive--perfect Russian handwriting. I've posted a couple examples here: http://tinyurl.com/33gpr22 ~mad ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*    Dr. Michael A. Denner    Associate Professor of Russian Studies    Editor, Tolstoy Studies Journal Director, Russian Studies Program    Director, University Honors Program       Contact Information:       Russian Studies Program       Stetson University       Campus Box 8361       DeLand, FL 32720-3756       386.822.7381 (department)       386.822.7265 (direct line)       386.822.7380 (fax)       google talk michaeladenner       www.stetson.edu/~mdenner -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Melissa Smith Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 3:37 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age Since Youngstown State has a one-year foreign language requirement and the bulk of our students stop their study at this level, I only require that they be able to READ cursive, and include sections on tests that include reading passages in cursive. I subsequently include writing assignments like greeting cards for different holidays, and give them models written for Russian children. I required that they send me a card for March 8th, International Women's Day, which falls about spring break, and gave them stamped envelopes and blank cards that they were supposed to mail me. This is not an ideal solution, but I try to compensate by getting them accustomed to using internet sources. I once had a student who had emigrated to the US at age 13 and wanted to return to study in a Russian University. Although she had gone to school and learned cursive as a child, she had taken to printing in both languages here. I had to convince her that she would be expected to write by hand were she to return to study in Moscow, and therefore had to retrain her! Melissa Smith On 9/8/10 2:26 PM, Beyer, Tom wrote: > At Middlebury student learn cursive in first year, much like I learned the > Palmer method in first grade. They begin using lined paper- two lines at > first, writing in pen (meaning they have to practice several times before > the final version). After they have learned the alphabet I give them two > books used by Russian first graders to practice penmanship. > But computers for text input also come into play almost immediately. A first > night assignment is to print out a page from rambler.ru, just so they know > their computers have Cyrillic. I also point to input methods, speak of > finding and using online dictionaries, how to type in Cyrillic using either > the Russian or some YAWERTY keyboard or online keyboards. Since some have > Iphones, Ipads, Itouches, and who knows what else before long, etc I simply > point them to google and say figure out how to type in Russian one way or > another on whatever device(s) you have. Many do word lists on the > computer,and there are some other assignments in first year: type a menu, > make a business card, etc. But cursive by hand is still for the foreseeable > future a necessary skill that I feel we should teach. > > Good luck and best wishes to all who toil in the garden of Basic Russian. > > > > On 9/8/10 9:45 AM, "Monnier, Nicole M." wrote: > > > Richard! > > > > Great question - one I was contemplating posting to the list as well. As I > > began the semester this year, I was struck by how many students don't use > > cursive in English and the added difficulties of this fact for the teaching > > of Russian cursive. > > > > As to your conditions, our current textbook (Live from Russia) does not have > > online exercises, so students inevitably have to handwrite their textbook > > exercises, as well as their exams and quizzes, so learning cursive is > > unavoidable at this juncture. I also tell them that they should be taking > > notes, and all my notes on the board are in cursive; likewise, when they > > head off to Russia (I always tell them "when," not "if"!), they're going to > > find themselves in situations where they'll have to read or write cursive. > > > > HOWEVER, I have been seriously contemplating requiring them to learn how to > > type in Russian, preferably with the Gosstandart layout (again, on the same > > premise that they find themselves in Russia some day with no option of the > > QUERTY translit keyboard), if only because it will give them incredible > > interactive access to real Russian online (Vkontakte, chat, etc.). I'm > > thinking about doing this in the second semester of first-year (ours is a > > 15-week course at 6 hours/week). > > > > I do not curtail students' use of the computer, though few venture onto the > > keyboard on their own in any event. > > > > If our university required all students to have laptops of some sort, I > > would be even more likely to require students to learn to type in Russian. > > > > Other than that, I can only say that I am as curious as you as to other > > practices in our field. > > > > Best, > > > > Nicole > > > > > > **************************** > > Dr. Nicole Monnier > > Associate Teaching Professor of Russian > > Director of Undergraduate Studies (Russian) > > German & Russian Studies > > 428A Strickland (formerly GCB) > > University of Missouri > > Columbia, MO 65211 > > > > phone: 573.882.3370 > > > > > > > > > > On 9/8/10 7:48 AM, "Richard Robin" wrote: > > > >> Dear SEELANGers, > >> > >> I¹d like to get some feedback from colleagues on the issue of teaching > >> Russian script to beginners in an era of computer-delivered materials. > >> > >> Imagine using a textbook under the following conditions: > >> > >> 1. Every exercise is online but also available in the printed version of > >> a student workbook (tear out pages, etc.) > >> 2. Your students have computers that can type Cyrillic, and using either > >> the native Gosstandart layout or the phonetic ³student² keyboard, they can > >> type Russian. > >> 3. While all the exercises are on line, some are (a) machine gradable > >> (simple choose the ending or fill in the blank with an unambiguous word or > >> phrase, (b) sentence or paragraph length, submittable electronically to > >> the > >> teacher, but not machine gradable. > >> > >> > >> Questions: > >> > >> 1. Do you teach cursive basically for recognition and embrace the use of > >> all the online exercises? > >> 2. Do you limit the use of the students¹ use of the computer until they > >> have mastered cursive? > >> 3. If you answered yes, to Question 2, what are the limits? How long must > >> they write things by hand? (It helps if you calculate by instructional > >> hours, where a typical 4-hour a week semester of 15 weeks comes to 60 > >> hours, > >> a year ‹ 120 hours). Do they have to write everything by hand or is there > >> an > >> acceptable mix of handwritten work and computer work? > >> 4. Any other opinions you have on the subject. > >> > >> Either public or private answers are appreciated. This is not a formal > >> scholarly survey (obviously). I just want to get people to express some > >> opinions on the matter. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Richard Robin > >> > >> > >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------ Melissa T. Smith, Professor Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures Youngstown State University Youngstown, OH 44555 Tel: (330)941-3462 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sclancy at UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Sep 9 19:08:03 2010 From: sclancy at UCHICAGO.EDU (Steven Clancy) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 14:08:03 -0500 Subject: SCLC-2010 Conference Program In-Reply-To: <4C827393.1060608@sheffield.ac.uk> Message-ID: THE TENTH ANNUAL CONFERENCE OF THE SLAVIC COGNITIVE LINGUISTICS ASSOCIATION (SCLC-2010) October 9-11, 2010 Brown University (Providence, Rhode Island, USA) Hosted by the Department of Slavic Languages, Brown University (Providence, Rhode Island) with support from the Office of International Affairs, the Colver Lectureship Fund from the Office of the Dean of the Faculty, the Center for Language Studies, the Department of Cognitive, Linguistics and Psychologial Sciences, and John Benjamins Publishing Company. THE TENTH ANNUAL CONFERENCE OF THE SLAVIC COGNITIVE LINGUISTICS ASSOCIATION (SCLC-2010) October 9-11, 2010 The Slavic Cognitive Linguistics Association (SCLA) announces the program for the 2010 annual conference. The conference will be held on the campus of Brown University (Providence, Rhode Island) on Saturday, October 9 through Monday, October 11, 2010. SCLC-2010 Keynote Speakers Cognitively Plausible Parsing Eugene Charniak Brown University, USA The role of rational discounting: what to say, what not to say Adele E. Goldberg Princeton University, USA Access, Activation, and Overlap: Focusing on the Differential Ronald W. Langacker University of California, San Diego, USA MAIN SESSIONS (Saturday, Sunday, and Monday) Each presentation for the main sessions will be given 20 minutes and will be followed by a 10-minute discussion period. SCHEDULE View the Conference Schedule in PDF Format. CONFERENCE INFORMATION Membership in the SCLA is free, please see "Joining SCLA" for more information. Attendance at SCLC-2010 is open and all interested individuals are encouraged to attend. Information on Conference Fees and Registration are provided below. Brown University is located in Providence, Rhode Island and is accessible from Boston Logan International Airport (BOS, 55 miles away) or T.F. Green Airport (PVD) in Providence. Transportation from Airports: If you arrive at Boston Logan International Airport (BOS), you can get to Providence by bus (Peter Pan Bus, currently $36 round trip) from Boston Logan to Kennedy Plaza (in downtown Providence, tell the driver you are dropping off at Kennedy Plaza when you board), then by taxi to the Radisson Hotel in Providence (1.6 miles to the hotel) or by subway to South Station and by bus or train to Providence, then by taxi to the Radisson Hotel in Providence. Taxi from Logan to Providence would cost more than $100 and is not recommended. Ground transportation from Boston: further information. If you arrive directly at Providence T.F. Green International Airport (PVD) To and from PVD to downtown area: further information. Taxi from Providence Airport to Providence will cost around $30 one way. Ground transportation from Providence is much simpler. But international travelers may find more flights flying into Boston. Conference Hotel: Radisson Hotel Providence Harbor 220 India Street, Providence, RI 02903, Reservations: 1-800-395-7046 US/Canada Toll-free Telephone: (401) 272-5577 Fax: (401) 272-0251 Email: RHI_PROV at radisson.com Participants should mention the Slavic Cognitive Linguistics Association Conference to reserve a room at the special conference rate ($79USD plus 13% tax). Special rates are valid from Thursday 10/7 to Monday 10/11 (fewer rooms are available on Thursday and Monday). Additional people per room is $10 per person. Reservations at the conference rate must be made by 5:00pm local time, September 8, 2010. Please make your reservations early to ensure a room at the conference hotel. Conference Fees: Registration Fee: Regular participants $60USD Graduate student participants $40USD Conference dinner: $50USD Please make your checks payable to "Brown University" and send them to: Masako Fidler SCLC Organizer 20 Manning Walk, Box E Department of Slavic Languages Brown University Providence, RI02912 If you wish to preregister by wiring money for conference fees, please contact Gisela Belton for details. If you will need to register on-site, please contactSteven Clancy to confirm your participation. We hope you will be able to join us for SCLC-2010. Please forward this call for papers to your colleagues and graduate students who may be interested in presenting or attending. Sincerely, Steven Clancy President, SCLA Tore Nesset Vice-President, SCLA Masako Fidler Conference Organizer and Host Brown University on behalf of the SCLA officers and the 2010 SCLA organizing committee ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Thu Sep 9 19:21:25 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 20:21:25 +0100 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dr Denner, If you don't teach them cursive in the first place, how can students be expected to recognize it when they see it? Stephanie ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ On 9 September 2010 19:46, Michael Denner wrote: > I waste zero time teaching cursive--they need to learn to recognize Russian > handwriting (I write on the board) but I think teaching пропись is a waste > of valuable resources. > > Some students WANT to learn it, and I help them out. But for all written > work I accept printed (печатные буквы) Russian. I send 4-6 students a year > to Russia and I've never heard a complaint. > > One of my first assignments is for them to download an ASDF keyboard (like > Russian for Gringos) or use translit.ru and type me a message. We do a lot > of free-writing and I require all of it to be sent by email to me for > correction. > > Finally, I'm slowly moving away even from worrying about typing skills and > encouraging students to record dialogues, essays, even their homework > assignments. It's something new for me this year, aided in part by the great > site vocaroo.com, which allows students to make quick recordings online > and post them easily. I'm requiring them to submit the audio files through > our class blog (bearinahat.blogspot.com) so they don't fill my inbox. (You > can see a few early submissions there already--mostly recordings of poetry.) > > This move to recordings is a response to changes in the ways that students > communicate: I asked my students recently about their email habits. To a > one, they said "The only time I use email is to communicate with my > professors." Gosh, I'm so old I remember email being new. > > Times they are a'changin... > > Oh, and, if you DO still teach handwriting, I cannot recommend highly > enough the very cool Primo and Tempo fonts here: > http://nekin.narod.ru/e25.htm > > They're true handwriting fonts, and use a complex macro to connect letters > using a variety of liaisons. You'll need to download the documents and > fonts, read the instructions carefully. But the results are really > impressive--perfect Russian handwriting. I've posted a couple examples here: > http://tinyurl.com/33gpr22 > > ~mad > > ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* > Dr. Michael A. Denner > Associate Professor of Russian Studies > Editor, Tolstoy Studies Journal > Director, Russian Studies Program > Director, University Honors Program > > > Contact Information: > Russian Studies Program > Stetson University > Campus Box 8361 > DeLand, FL 32720-3756 > 386.822.7381 (department) > 386.822.7265 (direct line) > 386.822.7380 (fax) > > google talk michaeladenner > www.stetson.edu/~mdenner > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list > [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Melissa Smith > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 3:37 PM > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the > computer age > > Since Youngstown State has a one-year foreign language requirement and > the bulk of our students stop their study at this level, I only require > that they be able to READ cursive, and include sections on tests that > include reading passages in cursive. I subsequently include writing > assignments like greeting cards for different holidays, and give them > models written for Russian children. I required that they send me a > card for March 8th, International Women's Day, which falls about spring > break, and gave them stamped envelopes and blank cards that they were > supposed to mail me. > > This is not an ideal solution, but I try to compensate by getting them > accustomed to using internet sources. I once had a student who had > emigrated to the US at age 13 and wanted to return to study in a > Russian University. Although she had gone to school and learned cursive > as a child, she had taken to printing in both languages here. I had to > convince her that she would be expected to write by hand were she to > return to study in Moscow, and therefore had to retrain her! > > Melissa Smith > > > On 9/8/10 2:26 PM, Beyer, Tom wrote: > > At Middlebury student learn cursive in first year, much like I learned > the > > Palmer method in first grade. They begin using lined paper- two lines > at > > first, writing in pen (meaning they have to practice several times > before > > the final version). After they have learned the alphabet I give them > two > > books used by Russian first graders to practice penmanship. > > But computers for text input also come into play almost immediately. A > first > > night assignment is to print out a page from rambler.ru, just so they > know > > their computers have Cyrillic. I also point to input methods, speak of > > finding and using online dictionaries, how to type in Cyrillic using > either > > the Russian or some YAWERTY keyboard or online keyboards. Since some > have > > Iphones, Ipads, Itouches, and who knows what else before long, etc I > simply > > point them to google and say figure out how to type in Russian one way > or > > another on whatever device(s) you have. Many do word lists on the > > computer,and there are some other assignments in first year: type a > menu, > > make a business card, etc. But cursive by hand is still for the > foreseeable > > future a necessary skill that I feel we should teach. > > > > Good luck and best wishes to all who toil in the garden of Basic > Russian. > > > > > > > > On 9/8/10 9:45 AM, "Monnier, Nicole M." wrote: > > > > > Richard! > > > > > > Great question - one I was contemplating posting to the list as > well. As I > > > began the semester this year, I was struck by how many students > don't use > > > cursive in English and the added difficulties of this fact for the > teaching > > > of Russian cursive. > > > > > > As to your conditions, our current textbook (Live from Russia) does > not have > > > online exercises, so students inevitably have to handwrite their > textbook > > > exercises, as well as their exams and quizzes, so learning cursive is > > > unavoidable at this juncture. I also tell them that they should be > taking > > > notes, and all my notes on the board are in cursive; likewise, when > they > > > head off to Russia (I always tell them "when," not "if"!), they're > going to > > > find themselves in situations where they'll have to read or write > cursive. > > > > > > HOWEVER, I have been seriously contemplating requiring them to learn > how to > > > type in Russian, preferably with the Gosstandart layout (again, on > the same > > > premise that they find themselves in Russia some day with no option > of the > > > QUERTY translit keyboard), if only because it will give them > incredible > > > interactive access to real Russian online (Vkontakte, chat, etc.). > I'm > > > thinking about doing this in the second semester of first-year (ours > is a > > > 15-week course at 6 hours/week). > > > > > > I do not curtail students' use of the computer, though few venture > onto the > > > keyboard on their own in any event. > > > > > > If our university required all students to have laptops of some > sort, I > > > would be even more likely to require students to learn to type in > Russian. > > > > > > Other than that, I can only say that I am as curious as you as to > other > > > practices in our field. > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Nicole > > > > > > > > > **************************** > > > Dr. Nicole Monnier > > > Associate Teaching Professor of Russian > > > Director of Undergraduate Studies (Russian) > > > German & Russian Studies > > > 428A Strickland (formerly GCB) > > > University of Missouri > > > Columbia, MO 65211 > > > > > > phone: 573.882.3370 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/8/10 7:48 AM, "Richard Robin" wrote: > > > > > >> Dear SEELANGers, > > >> > > >> I¹d like to get some feedback from colleagues on the issue of > teaching > > >> Russian script to beginners in an era of computer-delivered > materials. > > >> > > >> Imagine using a textbook under the following conditions: > > >> > > >> 1. Every exercise is online but also available in the printed > version of > > >> a student workbook (tear out pages, etc.) > > >> 2. Your students have computers that can type Cyrillic, and > using either > > >> the native Gosstandart layout or the phonetic ³student² > keyboard, they can > > >> type Russian. > > >> 3. While all the exercises are on line, some are (a) machine > gradable > > >> (simple choose the ending or fill in the blank with an > unambiguous word or > > >> phrase, (b) sentence or paragraph length, submittable > electronically to > > >> the > > >> teacher, but not machine gradable. > > >> > > >> > > >> Questions: > > >> > > >> 1. Do you teach cursive basically for recognition and embrace > the use of > > >> all the online exercises? > > >> 2. Do you limit the use of the students¹ use of the computer > until they > > >> have mastered cursive? > > >> 3. If you answered yes, to Question 2, what are the limits? How > long must > > >> they write things by hand? (It helps if you calculate by > instructional > > >> hours, where a typical 4-hour a week semester of 15 weeks comes > to 60 > > >> hours, > > >> a year ‹ 120 hours). Do they have to write everything by hand or > is there > > >> an > > >> acceptable mix of handwritten work and computer work? > > >> 4. Any other opinions you have on the subject. > > >> > > >> Either public or private answers are appreciated. This is not a > formal > > >> scholarly survey (obviously). I just want to get people to express > some > > >> opinions on the matter. > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> Richard Robin > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription > > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface > at: > > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > > ------------------------------------ > > Melissa T. Smith, Professor > Department of Foreign Languages and > Literatures > Youngstown State University > Youngstown, OH 44555 > Tel: (330)941-3462 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ozaslav at ALUMNI.UPENN.EDU Thu Sep 9 19:25:58 2010 From: ozaslav at ALUMNI.UPENN.EDU (Olga Zaslavsky) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 19:25:58 +0000 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age/ Q about downloading a Russian font on a PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Michael, I have a student who owns a PC, and, when he tried to follow directions on the AATSEEL website about downloading a Russian font, he didn't succeed.Can you suggest something in addition to those instructions? I am a Mac user, so I couldn't help him.Many thanks,Olga Zaslavsky, PhD > Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 14:46:32 -0400 > From: mdenner at STETSON.EDU > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > > One of my first assignments is for them to download an ASDF keyboard (like Russian for Gringos) or use translit.ru and type me a message. We do a lot of free-writing and I require all of it to be sent by email to me for correction. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Thu Sep 9 19:30:03 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 20:30:03 +0100 Subject: Good news for readers of Platonov Message-ID: Dear all, The fourth volume of an eight-volume edition of Platonov has just come out from VREMYA. It contains most of what he wrote in the 1930s. For the first time, several of Platonov¹s masterpieces - ³Dzhan², ³Sredi zhivotnykh I rastenii² are available in uncensored texts, and in volumes that are readily obtainable. Until now the complete text of ³Dzhan² was available only in a 1999 volume published with the help of the Soros Foundation that seems to have disappeared almost without trace. This volume is edited by Natalia Kornienko from IMLI, who is both very knowledgeable and very conscientious. I ordered several copies from KNIGA.COM Vsego dobrogo, Robert ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From evansromaine at WISC.EDU Thu Sep 9 19:40:54 2010 From: evansromaine at WISC.EDU (Karen Evans-Romaine) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 14:40:54 -0500 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age Message-ID: Dear Michael (cc Seelangs colleagues), Why make students download an ASDF keyboard and give up the chance to teach them to type using the Russian standard keyboard already available to them? That is a far more logical and practical choice, both from an ergonomic point of view and for any future work in a Russian office. Best wishes, Karen Karen Evans-Romaine Associate Professor, Department of Slavic Languages & Literature Director, Russian Flagship Center University of Wisconsin - Madison On 09/09/10, Michael Denner wrote: > I waste zero time teaching cursive--they need to learn to recognize Russian handwriting (I write on the board) but I think teaching пропись is a waste of valuable resources. > > Some students WANT to learn it, and I help them out. But for all written work I accept printed (печатные буквы) Russian. I send 4-6 students a year to Russia and I've never heard a complaint.  > > One of my first assignments is for them to download an ASDF keyboard (like Russian for Gringos) or use translit.ru and type me a message. We do a lot of free-writing and I require all of it to be sent by email to me for correction. > > Finally, I'm slowly moving away even from worrying about typing skills and encouraging students to record dialogues, essays, even their homework assignments. It's something new for me this year, aided in part by the great site vocaroo.com, which allows students to make quick recordings online and post them easily. I'm requiring them to submit the audio files through our class blog (bearinahat.blogspot.com) so they don't fill my inbox. (You can see a few early submissions there already--mostly recordings of poetry.) > > This move to recordings is a response to changes in the ways that students communicate: I asked my students recently about their email habits. To a one, they said "The only time I use email is to communicate with my professors."  Gosh, I'm so old I remember email being new. > > Times they are a'changin... > > Oh, and, if you DO still teach handwriting, I cannot recommend highly enough the very cool Primo and Tempo fonts here: > http://nekin.narod.ru/e25.htm > > They're true handwriting fonts, and use a complex macro to connect letters using a variety of liaisons. You'll need to download the documents and fonts, read the instructions carefully. But the results are really impressive--perfect Russian handwriting. I've posted a couple examples here: > http://tinyurl.com/33gpr22 > > ~mad > > ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* >    Dr. Michael A. Denner >    Associate Professor of Russian Studies >    Editor, Tolstoy Studies Journal >    Director, Russian Studies Program >    Director, University Honors Program > >    >    Contact Information: >       Russian Studies Program >       Stetson University >       Campus Box 8361 >       DeLand, FL 32720-3756 >       386.822.7381 (department) >       386.822.7265 (direct line) >       386.822.7380 (fax) > >       google talk michaeladenner >       www.stetson.edu/~mdenner > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu](javascript:main.compose() On Behalf Of Melissa Smith > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 3:37 PM > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age > > Since Youngstown State has a one-year foreign language requirement and > the bulk of our students stop their study at this level, I only require > that they be able to READ cursive, and include sections on tests that > include reading passages in cursive.  I subsequently include writing > assignments like greeting cards for different holidays, and give them > models written for Russian children. I required that they send me a > card for March 8th, International Women's Day, which falls about spring > break, and gave them stamped envelopes and blank cards that they were > supposed to mail me. > > This is not an ideal solution, but I try to compensate by getting them > accustomed to using internet sources. I once had a student who had > emigrated to the US at age 13 and wanted to return to study in a > Russian University. Although she had gone to school and learned cursive > as a child, she had taken to printing in both languages here. I had to > convince her that she would be expected to write by hand were she to > return to study in Moscow, and therefore had to retrain her! > > Melissa Smith > > > On 9/8/10 2:26 PM, Beyer, Tom wrote: > > At Middlebury student learn cursive in first year, much like I learned > the > > Palmer method in first grade. They begin using lined paper- two lines > at > > first, writing in pen (meaning they have to practice several times > before > > the final version). After they have learned the alphabet I give them > two > > books used by Russian first graders to practice penmanship. > > But computers for text input also come into play almost immediately. A > first > > night assignment is to print out a page from rambler.ru, just so they > know > > their computers have Cyrillic. I also point to input methods, speak of > > finding and using online dictionaries, how to type in Cyrillic using > either > > the Russian or some YAWERTY keyboard or online keyboards. Since some > have > > Iphones, Ipads, Itouches, and who knows what else before long, etc I > simply > > point them to google and say figure out how to type in Russian one way > or > > another on whatever device(s) you have. Many do word lists on the > > computer,and there are some other assignments in first year: type a > menu, > > make a business card, etc. But cursive by hand is still for the > foreseeable > > future a necessary skill that I feel we should teach. > > > > Good luck and best wishes to all who toil in the garden of Basic > Russian. > > > > > > > > On 9/8/10 9:45 AM, "Monnier, Nicole M." wrote: > > > > > Richard! > > > > > > Great question - one I was contemplating posting to the list as > well. As I > > > began the semester this year, I was struck by how many students > don't use > > > cursive in English and the added difficulties of this fact for the > teaching > > > of Russian cursive. > > > > > > As to your conditions, our current textbook (Live from Russia) does > not have > > > online exercises, so students inevitably have to handwrite their > textbook > > > exercises, as well as their exams and quizzes, so learning cursive is > > > unavoidable at this juncture. I also tell them that they should be > taking > > > notes, and all my notes on the board are in cursive; likewise, when > they > > > head off to Russia (I always tell them "when," not "if"!), they're > going to > > > find themselves in situations where they'll have to read or write > cursive. > > > > > > HOWEVER, I have been seriously contemplating requiring them to learn > how to > > > type in Russian, preferably with the Gosstandart layout (again, on > the same > > > premise that they find themselves in Russia some day with no option > of the > > > QUERTY translit keyboard), if only because it will give them > incredible > > > interactive access to real Russian online (Vkontakte, chat, etc.). > I'm > > > thinking about doing this in the second semester of first-year (ours > is a > > > 15-week course at 6 hours/week). > > > > > > I do not curtail students' use of the computer, though few venture > onto the > > > keyboard on their own in any event. > > > > > > If our university required all students to have laptops of some > sort, I > > > would be even more likely to require students to learn to type in > Russian. > > > > > > Other than that, I can only say that I am as curious as you as to > other > > > practices in our field. > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Nicole > > > > > > > > > **************************** > > > Dr. Nicole Monnier > > > Associate Teaching Professor of Russian > > > Director of Undergraduate Studies (Russian) > > > German & Russian Studies > > > 428A Strickland (formerly GCB) > > > University of Missouri > > > Columbia, MO 65211 > > > > > > phone: 573.882.3370 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/8/10 7:48 AM, "Richard Robin" wrote: > > > > > >> Dear SEELANGers, > > >> > > >> I¹d like to get some feedback from colleagues on the issue of > teaching > > >> Russian script to beginners in an era of computer-delivered > materials. > > >> > > >> Imagine using a textbook under the following conditions: > > >> > > >>    1. Every exercise is online but also available in the printed > version of > > >>    a student workbook (tear out pages, etc.) > > >>    2. Your students have computers that can type Cyrillic, and > using either > > >>    the native Gosstandart layout or the phonetic ³student² > keyboard, they can > > >>    type Russian. > > >>    3. While all the exercises are on line, some are (a) machine > gradable > > >>    (simple choose the ending or fill in the blank with an > unambiguous word or > > >>    phrase, (b) sentence or paragraph length, submittable > electronically to > > >> the > > >>    teacher, but not machine gradable. > > >> > > >> > > >> Questions: > > >> > > >>    1. Do you teach cursive basically for recognition and embrace > the use of > > >>    all the online exercises? > > >>    2. Do you limit the use of the students¹ use of the computer > until they > > >>    have mastered cursive? > > >>    3. If you answered yes, to Question 2, what are the limits? How > long must > > >>    they write things by hand? (It helps if you calculate by > instructional > > >>    hours, where a typical 4-hour a week semester of 15 weeks comes > to 60 > > >> hours, > > >>    a year ‹ 120 hours). Do they have to write everything by hand or > is there > > >> an > > >>    acceptable mix of handwritten work and computer work? > > >>    4. Any other opinions you have on the subject. > > >> > > >> Either public or private answers are appreciated. This is not a > formal > > >> scholarly survey (obviously). I just want to get people to express > some > > >> opinions on the matter. > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> Richard Robin > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > >  Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription > > >   options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface > at: > > >                     http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > >  Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > >   options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > >                     http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > > ------------------------------------ > > Melissa T. Smith, Professor > Department of Foreign Languages and > Literatures  > Youngstown State University > Youngstown, OH 44555 > Tel: (330)941-3462 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >  Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >   options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >                     http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >  Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >   options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >                     http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From luciano.dicocco at TIN.IT Thu Sep 9 20:01:31 2010 From: luciano.dicocco at TIN.IT (Luciano Di Cocco) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 22:01:31 +0200 Subject: Was Re: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > If I am somebody's coauthor or coworker, that person is also my > coauthor or coworker; but if I am a copilot to a pilot, the pilot is > not my copilot. 3a is about symmetrical relationships whereas 3b is > about asymmetrical relationships. > > In the religious context, it is evidently necessary to reject the view > that Mary is a co- anything to Jesus in meaning 3a, but seemingly co- > in sense 3b could be used with various agent nouns to tell about her > roles? Official theological documents of Roman Catholic Church uses the prefix co- with a clear 3b meaning referring to Mary in key functions. The Cathechism of Catholic Chrurch at point 968 cites Lumen gentium (61), a document from Vatican Council II: "In a wholly singular way she _cooperated_ by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace." In the official Latin: operi Salvatoris singulari prorsus modo _cooperata_ est, oboedientia, fide, spe et flagrante caritate, ad vitam animarum supernaturalem restaurandam. Quam ob causam mater nobis in ordine gratiae exstitit. By the way in the next point clarifies the concept: For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source. The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary. It knows it through unfailing experience of it and commends it to the hearts of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the more intimately adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer. Nulla enim creatura cum Verbo incarnato ac Redemptore connumerari umquam potest; sed sicut sacerdotium Christi variis modis tum a ministris tum a fideli populo participatur, et sicut una bonitas Dei in creaturis modis diversis realiter diffunditur, ita etiam unica mediatio Redemptoris non excludit, sed suscitat variam apud creaturas participatam ex unico fonte cooperationem. Tale autem munus subordinatum Mariae Ecclesia profiteri non dubitat, iugiter experitur et fidelium cordi commendat, ut hoc materno fulti praesidio Mediatori ac Salvatori intimius adhaereant. Luciano Di Cocco ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From darancourlaferriere at COMCAST.NET Thu Sep 9 20:10:49 2010 From: darancourlaferriere at COMCAST.NET (Daniel Rancour-Laferriere) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 13:10:49 -0700 Subject: Was Re: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Wayles, Thank you for bringing this linguistic clarity to my original question when you wrote: > the discussion has also made me think about a more linguistic topic: the multiple meanings of the prefix co-. Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary says it rather clearly: > "1: with; together; joint; jointly > 2: in or to the same degree > 3a: one that is associated in an action with another; fellow; partner b: having a usually lesser share in duty or responsibility: alternate; deputy > ..." > The prefix wasn't used much in classical Latin in meaning 3a or 3b; there are many nouns beginning with com-, con-, col-, cor-, and co-, but very few of them mean 'fellow anything'. A conservus was indeed a fellow slave, but a corruptor was by no means a fellow breaker. So these 'together; same; associated; deputy' meanings must have become more widely used in medieval Latin and then spread to modern languages. > > If I am somebody's coauthor or coworker, that person is also my coauthor or coworker; but if I am a copilot to a pilot, the pilot is not my copilot. 3a is about symmetrical relationships whereas 3b is about asymmetrical relationships. > > In the religious context, it is evidently necessary to reject the view that Mary is a co- anything to Jesus in meaning 3a, but seemingly co- in sense 3b could be used with various agent nouns to tell about her roles? This is correct, for most of the sources listed among the references in the footnote I provided are careful to stipulate that Mary had a "subordinate" role. Also, "coredemptrix" (or its equivalents in other languages) goes back to the fifteenth century at the earliest, according to Laurentin (the leading Catholic mariologist of the twentieth century). That is language. Now, religion. Since there has been a proliferation of religious discussion about this matter on this list, I will contribute by simply quoting from my book THE JOY OF ALL WHO SORROW (Moscow, 2005). It appears that the Russian Orthodox Mary is as much a deity as is the Roman Catholic coredemptrix. (But this would not be surprising in view of the Orthodox notion of theosis): > Mary’s death, like Christ’s, is temporary, for she, too, rises up bodily into heaven according to Orthodox belief: “The Church has always believed that Her body was taken up into heaven” – to quote a standard Russian Orthodox reference work.[i] Thus the Dormition or Assumption of Mary (“Uspenie”) is rather like the Ascension of Christ (“Voznesenie”). Georgii Fedotov speaks of Mary as “having ascended into the divine world to the point of indistinguishability from the heavenly God.”[ii] Metropolitan Sergii utilizes the same word -- “ascension” – to characterize Mary’s Assumption as is ordinarily applied to Christ’s postmortem ascent. He goes on to say: “The flesh of the Mother of God, having become like the flesh of the Resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, had already undergone that change from decay to non-decay which will come to all other people only after the general resurrection.”[iii] > > The transformation of Mary from dead flesh to a resurrected, ascended body means that she is divine. As Sergii Bulgakov says, Mary is a “totally divinized creature.”[iv] Leonid Uspenskii speaks of her “divinization” (“obozhenie”).[v] In Vladimir Lossky’s words, she is “the sole human person deified.”[vi] > > > [i] . Polnyi pravoslavnyi bogoslovskii entsiklopedicheskii slovar’ (1992 [1913]), vol. 2, col. 2206. Cf. Brianchaninov 1995 (1886), 436. > > Among Orthodox Christians it is widely believed that Mary also descended into Hell, just as Christ did (for example: Strotmann 1959, 191; Hubbs 1988, 108). She is sometimes shown on icons of the Last Judgement, and appears in the songs about the Last Judgement. > > > > > > [ii] . Fedotov 1991 (1935), 49. Fedotov does recognize that some of the (theologically incorrect) spiritual songs represent Mary’s body as remaining on earth in the form of her relics (51). > > > > [iii] . Sergii 1989 (1932), 118. Cf. Bulgakov 1927, 124. > > > > [iv] . Bulgakov 1927, 128 (cf. 130). > > > > [v] . Uspenskii 1989, 28. > > > > [vi] . In Ouspensky and Lossky 1982, 76. In the West too Mary is sometimes divinized or otherwise aggrandized. She is Mater Gloriosa, “the Woman Clothed with the Sun,” “Queen of Heaven,” and so forth. See, for example: Pelikan 1996. > > So, back to language: if she is "deified," as Lossky says, I think it is safe to say that she is a "deity." Q.E.D. DRL ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Thu Sep 9 20:25:42 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 21:25:42 +0100 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age In-Reply-To: <73a0dc5e5617.4c88f1f6@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: I'm assuming you're referring to a desktop PC with a detachable keyboard? Can't exactly detach the keyboard from a laptop like mine. What I do is use the Russian keyboard layout in Windows Vista and apply Cyrillic stickers appropriately. Stephanie ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ On 9 September 2010 20:40, Karen Evans-Romaine wrote: > Dear Michael (cc Seelangs colleagues), > > Why make students download an ASDF keyboard and give up the chance to teach > them to type using the Russian standard keyboard already available to them? > That is a far more logical and practical choice, both from an ergonomic > point of view and for any future work in a Russian office. > > Best wishes, > > Karen > > Karen Evans-Romaine > Associate Professor, Department of Slavic Languages & Literature > Director, Russian Flagship Center > University of Wisconsin - Madison > > > On 09/09/10, Michael Denner wrote: > > > I waste zero time teaching cursive--they need to learn to recognize > Russian handwriting (I write on the board) but I think teaching пропись is a > waste of valuable resources. > > > > Some students WANT to learn it, and I help them out. But for all written > work I accept printed (печатные буквы) Russian. I send 4-6 students a year > to Russia and I've never heard a complaint. > > > > One of my first assignments is for them to download an ASDF keyboard > (like Russian for Gringos) or use translit.ru and type me a message. We do > a lot of free-writing and I require all of it to be sent by email to me for > correction. > > > > Finally, I'm slowly moving away even from worrying about typing skills > and encouraging students to record dialogues, essays, even their homework > assignments. It's something new for me this year, aided in part by the great > site vocaroo.com, which allows students to make quick recordings online > and post them easily. I'm requiring them to submit the audio files through > our class blog (bearinahat.blogspot.com) so they don't fill my inbox. (You > can see a few early submissions there already--mostly recordings of poetry.) > > > > This move to recordings is a response to changes in the ways that > students communicate: I asked my students recently about their email habits. > To a one, they said "The only time I use email is to communicate with my > professors." Gosh, I'm so old I remember email being new. > > > > Times they are a'changin... > > > > Oh, and, if you DO still teach handwriting, I cannot recommend highly > enough the very cool Primo and Tempo fonts here: > > http://nekin.narod.ru/e25.htm > > > > They're true handwriting fonts, and use a complex macro to connect > letters using a variety of liaisons. You'll need to download the documents > and fonts, read the instructions carefully. But the results are really > impressive--perfect Russian handwriting. I've posted a couple examples here: > > http://tinyurl.com/33gpr22 > > > > ~mad > > > > ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* > > Dr. Michael A. Denner > > Associate Professor of Russian Studies > > Editor, Tolstoy Studies Journal > > Director, Russian Studies Program > > Director, University Honors Program > > > > > > Contact Information: > > Russian Studies Program > > Stetson University > > Campus Box 8361 > > DeLand, FL 32720-3756 > > 386.822.7381 (department) > > 386.822.7265 (direct line) > > 386.822.7380 (fax) > > > > google talk michaeladenner > > www.stetson.edu/~mdenner > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list > [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu](javascript:main.compose() On Behalf Of > Melissa Smith > > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 3:37 PM > > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the > computer age > > > > Since Youngstown State has a one-year foreign language requirement and > > the bulk of our students stop their study at this level, I only require > > that they be able to READ cursive, and include sections on tests that > > include reading passages in cursive. I subsequently include writing > > assignments like greeting cards for different holidays, and give them > > models written for Russian children. I required that they send me a > > card for March 8th, International Women's Day, which falls about spring > > break, and gave them stamped envelopes and blank cards that they were > > supposed to mail me. > > > > This is not an ideal solution, but I try to compensate by getting them > > accustomed to using internet sources. I once had a student who had > > emigrated to the US at age 13 and wanted to return to study in a > > Russian University. Although she had gone to school and learned cursive > > as a child, she had taken to printing in both languages here. I had to > > convince her that she would be expected to write by hand were she to > > return to study in Moscow, and therefore had to retrain her! > > > > Melissa Smith > > > > > > On 9/8/10 2:26 PM, Beyer, Tom wrote: > > > At Middlebury student learn cursive in first year, much like I learned > > the > > > Palmer method in first grade. They begin using lined paper- two lines > > at > > > first, writing in pen (meaning they have to practice several times > > before > > > the final version). After they have learned the alphabet I give them > > two > > > books used by Russian first graders to practice penmanship. > > > But computers for text input also come into play almost immediately. A > > first > > > night assignment is to print out a page from rambler.ru, just so they > > know > > > their computers have Cyrillic. I also point to input methods, speak of > > > finding and using online dictionaries, how to type in Cyrillic using > > either > > > the Russian or some YAWERTY keyboard or online keyboards. Since some > > have > > > Iphones, Ipads, Itouches, and who knows what else before long, etc I > > simply > > > point them to google and say figure out how to type in Russian one way > > or > > > another on whatever device(s) you have. Many do word lists on the > > > computer,and there are some other assignments in first year: type a > > menu, > > > make a business card, etc. But cursive by hand is still for the > > foreseeable > > > future a necessary skill that I feel we should teach. > > > > > > Good luck and best wishes to all who toil in the garden of Basic > > Russian. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/8/10 9:45 AM, "Monnier, Nicole M." wrote: > > > > > > > Richard! > > > > > > > > Great question - one I was contemplating posting to the list as > > well. As I > > > > began the semester this year, I was struck by how many students > > don't use > > > > cursive in English and the added difficulties of this fact for the > > teaching > > > > of Russian cursive. > > > > > > > > As to your conditions, our current textbook (Live from Russia) does > > not have > > > > online exercises, so students inevitably have to handwrite their > > textbook > > > > exercises, as well as their exams and quizzes, so learning cursive is > > > > unavoidable at this juncture. I also tell them that they should be > > taking > > > > notes, and all my notes on the board are in cursive; likewise, when > > they > > > > head off to Russia (I always tell them "when," not "if"!), they're > > going to > > > > find themselves in situations where they'll have to read or write > > cursive. > > > > > > > > HOWEVER, I have been seriously contemplating requiring them to learn > > how to > > > > type in Russian, preferably with the Gosstandart layout (again, on > > the same > > > > premise that they find themselves in Russia some day with no option > > of the > > > > QUERTY translit keyboard), if only because it will give them > > incredible > > > > interactive access to real Russian online (Vkontakte, chat, etc.). > > I'm > > > > thinking about doing this in the second semester of first-year (ours > > is a > > > > 15-week course at 6 hours/week). > > > > > > > > I do not curtail students' use of the computer, though few venture > > onto the > > > > keyboard on their own in any event. > > > > > > > > If our university required all students to have laptops of some > > sort, I > > > > would be even more likely to require students to learn to type in > > Russian. > > > > > > > > Other than that, I can only say that I am as curious as you as to > > other > > > > practices in our field. > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > Nicole > > > > > > > > > > > > **************************** > > > > Dr. Nicole Monnier > > > > Associate Teaching Professor of Russian > > > > Director of Undergraduate Studies (Russian) > > > > German & Russian Studies > > > > 428A Strickland (formerly GCB) > > > > University of Missouri > > > > Columbia, MO 65211 > > > > > > > > phone: 573.882.3370 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/8/10 7:48 AM, "Richard Robin" wrote: > > > > > > > >> Dear SEELANGers, > > > >> > > > >> I¹d like to get some feedback from colleagues on the issue of > > teaching > > > >> Russian script to beginners in an era of computer-delivered > > materials. > > > >> > > > >> Imagine using a textbook under the following conditions: > > > >> > > > >> 1. Every exercise is online but also available in the printed > > version of > > > >> a student workbook (tear out pages, etc.) > > > >> 2. Your students have computers that can type Cyrillic, and > > using either > > > >> the native Gosstandart layout or the phonetic ³student² > > keyboard, they can > > > >> type Russian. > > > >> 3. While all the exercises are on line, some are (a) machine > > gradable > > > >> (simple choose the ending or fill in the blank with an > > unambiguous word or > > > >> phrase, (b) sentence or paragraph length, submittable > > electronically to > > > >> the > > > >> teacher, but not machine gradable. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Questions: > > > >> > > > >> 1. Do you teach cursive basically for recognition and embrace > > the use of > > > >> all the online exercises? > > > >> 2. Do you limit the use of the students¹ use of the computer > > until they > > > >> have mastered cursive? > > > >> 3. If you answered yes, to Question 2, what are the limits? How > > long must > > > >> they write things by hand? (It helps if you calculate by > > instructional > > > >> hours, where a typical 4-hour a week semester of 15 weeks comes > > to 60 > > > >> hours, > > > >> a year ‹ 120 hours). Do they have to write everything by hand or > > is there > > > >> an > > > >> acceptable mix of handwritten work and computer work? > > > >> 4. Any other opinions you have on the subject. > > > >> > > > >> Either public or private answers are appreciated. This is not a > > formal > > > >> scholarly survey (obviously). I just want to get people to express > > some > > > >> opinions on the matter. > > > >> > > > >> Thanks, > > > >> Richard Robin > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > - > > > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > > subscription > > > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface > > at: > > > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > - > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > - > > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > - > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Melissa T. Smith, Professor > > Department of Foreign Languages and > > Literatures > > Youngstown State University > > Youngstown, OH 44555 > > Tel: (330)941-3462 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ashot-vardanyan at UIOWA.EDU Thu Sep 9 20:48:56 2010 From: ashot-vardanyan at UIOWA.EDU (Vardanyan, Ashot) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 15:48:56 -0500 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age/ Q about downloading a Russian font on a PC Message-ID: Hello, Have the student study this site -- http://winrus.com/kbd_e.htm#contVista , especially the section titled <>. There, he will find guidelines to install phonetic Russian on your computer. For his information, phonetic Russian is good in that its Cyrillic characters match to the English ones, except for just a few that English lacks. Ashot Vardanyan ________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list on behalf of Olga Zaslavsky Sent: Thu 09-Sep-10 14:25 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age/ Q about downloading a Russian font on a PC Dear Michael, I have a student who owns a PC, and, when he tried to follow directions on the AATSEEL website about downloading a Russian font, he didn't succeed.Can you suggest something in addition to those instructions? I am a Mac user, so I couldn't help him.Many thanks,Olga Zaslavsky, PhD > Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 14:46:32 -0400 > From: mdenner at STETSON.EDU > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > > One of my first assignments is for them to download an ASDF keyboard (like Russian for Gringos) or use translit.ru and type me a message. We do a lot of free-writing and I require all of it to be sent by email to me for correction. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mdenner at STETSON.EDU Thu Sep 9 21:33:59 2010 From: mdenner at STETSON.EDU (Michael Denner) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 17:33:59 -0400 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age In-Reply-To: <73a0dc5e5617.4c88f1f6@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: @ Karen, Hmmm... We might be confusing terms here. Most versions of Windows (I am using three different versions right now) come standard with just the old Soviet typewriter keyboard ("Typewriter" under my RegionalSettings/Language/Russian settings). When I type ASDF on my keyboard, I get this nonsense: фыва I used to know how to type on that keyboard back in the day. Nowadays, my students and I use the homophonic keyboard, Russian for Gringos. When I type ASDF on my keyboard, I get this: Асдф I don't THINK that I've ever used a version of Windows that came with a resident ASDF/Homophonic/Gringos keyboard, but maybe I'm wrong. There are certainly many other ASDF keyboards out there for русский алфавит. In any case, I really like the Gringos keyboard because it's easy to insert accent marks using the solidus (the forward slash). Хорошо́ (That should show the marked accent. But who knows with encoding!) @ Olga Zaslavsky: Another reason to like the Russian for Gringos keyboard: The detailed instructions for downloading and installing. Any чайник can make it work: http://shininghappypeople.net/deljr/gringos/vista/index.htm (Note instructions for XP, Linux at top right corner; I've installed it on my Windows 7 without a problem.) If they really can't get it to work, just have them use www.translit.ru. It works very well, it's always there (no worry about using a different keyboard), and even has an integrated spell check. (Which I encourage my students to use.) @ Stephanie Briggs: I don't teach handwriting. I write in cursive on the board every day (I cover the board). My students learn to read my lovely пропись. It takes a while. I start off with печатные and then slowly, during the semester, switch over to пропись. Sometimes I have to point to the hooks on the м л я and explain how to read them, but not for long. Sometimes students have to ask "Что же это такое!" But rarely. It works. Trust me. Don't waste your time teaching them to write. Those who want to learn, learn. The males just print. ~mad ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Dr. Michael A. Denner Associate Professor of Russian Studies Editor, Tolstoy Studies Journal Director, Russian Studies Program Director, University Honors Program Contact Information: Russian Studies Program Stetson University Campus Box 8361 DeLand, FL 32720-3756 386.822.7381 (department) 386.822.7265 (direct line) 386.822.7380 (fax) google talk michaeladenner www.stetson.edu/~mdenner -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Evans-Romaine Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 3:41 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age Dear Michael (cc Seelangs colleagues), Why make students download an ASDF keyboard and give up the chance to teach them to type using the Russian standard keyboard already available to them? That is a far more logical and practical choice, both from an ergonomic point of view and for any future work in a Russian office. Best wishes, Karen Karen Evans-Romaine Associate Professor, Department of Slavic Languages & Literature Director, Russian Flagship Center University of Wisconsin - Madison On 09/09/10, Michael Denner wrote: > I waste zero time teaching cursive--they need to learn to recognize Russian handwriting (I write on the board) but I think teaching пропись is a waste of valuable resources. > > Some students WANT to learn it, and I help them out. But for all written work I accept printed (печатные буквы) Russian. I send 4-6 students a year to Russia and I've never heard a complaint. > > One of my first assignments is for them to download an ASDF keyboard (like Russian for Gringos) or use translit.ru and type me a message. We do a lot of free-writing and I require all of it to be sent by email to me for correction. > > Finally, I'm slowly moving away even from worrying about typing skills and encouraging students to record dialogues, essays, even their homework assignments. It's something new for me this year, aided in part by the great site vocaroo.com, which allows students to make quick recordings online and post them easily. I'm requiring them to submit the audio files through our class blog (bearinahat.blogspot.com) so they don't fill my inbox. (You can see a few early submissions there already--mostly recordings of poetry.) > > This move to recordings is a response to changes in the ways that students communicate: I asked my students recently about their email habits. To a one, they said "The only time I use email is to communicate with my professors." Gosh, I'm so old I remember email being new. > > Times they are a'changin... > > Oh, and, if you DO still teach handwriting, I cannot recommend highly enough the very cool Primo and Tempo fonts here: > http://nekin.narod.ru/e25.htm > > They're true handwriting fonts, and use a complex macro to connect letters using a variety of liaisons. You'll need to download the documents and fonts, read the instructions carefully. But the results are really impressive--perfect Russian handwriting. I've posted a couple examples here: > http://tinyurl.com/33gpr22 > > ~mad > > ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* > Dr. Michael A. Denner > Associate Professor of Russian Studies > Editor, Tolstoy Studies Journal > Director, Russian Studies Program > Director, University Honors Program > > > Contact Information: > Russian Studies Program > Stetson University > Campus Box 8361 > DeLand, FL 32720-3756 > 386.822.7381 (department) > 386.822.7265 (direct line) > 386.822.7380 (fax) > > google talk michaeladenner > www.stetson.edu/~mdenner > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu](javascript:main.compose() On Behalf Of Melissa Smith > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 3:37 PM > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age > > Since Youngstown State has a one-year foreign language requirement and > the bulk of our students stop their study at this level, I only require > that they be able to READ cursive, and include sections on tests that > include reading passages in cursive. I subsequently include writing > assignments like greeting cards for different holidays, and give them > models written for Russian children. I required that they send me a > card for March 8th, International Women's Day, which falls about spring > break, and gave them stamped envelopes and blank cards that they were > supposed to mail me. > > This is not an ideal solution, but I try to compensate by getting them > accustomed to using internet sources. I once had a student who had > emigrated to the US at age 13 and wanted to return to study in a > Russian University. Although she had gone to school and learned cursive > as a child, she had taken to printing in both languages here. I had to > convince her that she would be expected to write by hand were she to > return to study in Moscow, and therefore had to retrain her! > > Melissa Smith > > > On 9/8/10 2:26 PM, Beyer, Tom wrote: > > At Middlebury student learn cursive in first year, much like I learned > the > > Palmer method in first grade. They begin using lined paper- two lines > at > > first, writing in pen (meaning they have to practice several times > before > > the final version). After they have learned the alphabet I give them > two > > books used by Russian first graders to practice penmanship. > > But computers for text input also come into play almost immediately. A > first > > night assignment is to print out a page from rambler.ru, just so they > know > > their computers have Cyrillic. I also point to input methods, speak of > > finding and using online dictionaries, how to type in Cyrillic using > either > > the Russian or some YAWERTY keyboard or online keyboards. Since some > have > > Iphones, Ipads, Itouches, and who knows what else before long, etc I > simply > > point them to google and say figure out how to type in Russian one way > or > > another on whatever device(s) you have. Many do word lists on the > > computer,and there are some other assignments in first year: type a > menu, > > make a business card, etc. But cursive by hand is still for the > foreseeable > > future a necessary skill that I feel we should teach. > > > > Good luck and best wishes to all who toil in the garden of Basic > Russian. > > > > > > > > On 9/8/10 9:45 AM, "Monnier, Nicole M." wrote: > > > > > Richard! > > > > > > Great question - one I was contemplating posting to the list as > well. As I > > > began the semester this year, I was struck by how many students > don't use > > > cursive in English and the added difficulties of this fact for the > teaching > > > of Russian cursive. > > > > > > As to your conditions, our current textbook (Live from Russia) does > not have > > > online exercises, so students inevitably have to handwrite their > textbook > > > exercises, as well as their exams and quizzes, so learning cursive is > > > unavoidable at this juncture. I also tell them that they should be > taking > > > notes, and all my notes on the board are in cursive; likewise, when > they > > > head off to Russia (I always tell them "when," not "if"!), they're > going to > > > find themselves in situations where they'll have to read or write > cursive. > > > > > > HOWEVER, I have been seriously contemplating requiring them to learn > how to > > > type in Russian, preferably with the Gosstandart layout (again, on > the same > > > premise that they find themselves in Russia some day with no option > of the > > > QUERTY translit keyboard), if only because it will give them > incredible > > > interactive access to real Russian online (Vkontakte, chat, etc.). > I'm > > > thinking about doing this in the second semester of first-year (ours > is a > > > 15-week course at 6 hours/week). > > > > > > I do not curtail students' use of the computer, though few venture > onto the > > > keyboard on their own in any event. > > > > > > If our university required all students to have laptops of some > sort, I > > > would be even more likely to require students to learn to type in > Russian. > > > > > > Other than that, I can only say that I am as curious as you as to > other > > > practices in our field. > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Nicole > > > > > > > > > **************************** > > > Dr. Nicole Monnier > > > Associate Teaching Professor of Russian > > > Director of Undergraduate Studies (Russian) > > > German & Russian Studies > > > 428A Strickland (formerly GCB) > > > University of Missouri > > > Columbia, MO 65211 > > > > > > phone: 573.882.3370 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/8/10 7:48 AM, "Richard Robin" wrote: > > > > > >> Dear SEELANGers, > > >> > > >> I¹d like to get some feedback from colleagues on the issue of > teaching > > >> Russian script to beginners in an era of computer-delivered > materials. > > >> > > >> Imagine using a textbook under the following conditions: > > >> > > >> 1. Every exercise is online but also available in the printed > version of > > >> a student workbook (tear out pages, etc.) > > >> 2. Your students have computers that can type Cyrillic, and > using either > > >> the native Gosstandart layout or the phonetic ³student² > keyboard, they can > > >> type Russian. > > >> 3. While all the exercises are on line, some are (a) machine > gradable > > >> (simple choose the ending or fill in the blank with an > unambiguous word or > > >> phrase, (b) sentence or paragraph length, submittable > electronically to > > >> the > > >> teacher, but not machine gradable. > > >> > > >> > > >> Questions: > > >> > > >> 1. Do you teach cursive basically for recognition and embrace > the use of > > >> all the online exercises? > > >> 2. Do you limit the use of the students¹ use of the computer > until they > > >> have mastered cursive? > > >> 3. If you answered yes, to Question 2, what are the limits? How > long must > > >> they write things by hand? (It helps if you calculate by > instructional > > >> hours, where a typical 4-hour a week semester of 15 weeks comes > to 60 > > >> hours, > > >> a year ‹ 120 hours). Do they have to write everything by hand or > is there > > >> an > > >> acceptable mix of handwritten work and computer work? > > >> 4. Any other opinions you have on the subject. > > >> > > >> Either public or private answers are appreciated. This is not a > formal > > >> scholarly survey (obviously). I just want to get people to express > some > > >> opinions on the matter. > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> Richard Robin > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription > > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface > at: > > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > > ------------------------------------ > > Melissa T. Smith, Professor > Department of Foreign Languages and > Literatures > Youngstown State University > Youngstown, OH 44555 > Tel: (330)941-3462 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From asured at VERIZON.NET Thu Sep 9 22:27:14 2010 From: asured at VERIZON.NET (Steve Marder) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 18:27:14 -0400 Subject: FREE to a good home Message-ID: I am offering the following book gratis on a first come, first served basis: M.N. Priyomysheva, Taynye i uslovnye yazyki v Rossii XIX v.: Chast' 1, S.-P., 2009, 455 pp., print run: 500 copies I am offering it up for adoption because it is superfluous to my needs. The book is in pristine condition. Steve Marder ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From oothappam at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Sep 9 22:34:51 2010 From: oothappam at EARTHLINK.NET (oothappam) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 18:34:51 -0400 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age/ Q about downloading a Russian font on a PC Message-ID: I got tired of going through all that with different computers so just gave up and bought a CD that has "Windows Russian Support" on it. I found it on ebay. Perhaps if one person in the department gets that, they can share it and install on student's PCs if they request it.I used it for Windows 98 and Wiindows 7 and it's worked on both OS's. The CD is actually a set. One installs all the settings to get Russian set up and the other installs a set of Russian fonts. All you need after that is a set of stickers for the keys and you're set. I found the stickers very cheap on ebay too. Nola -----Original Message----- >From: Olga Zaslavsky >Sent: Sep 9, 2010 3:25 PM >To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age/ Q about downloading a Russian font on a PC > >Dear Michael, > >I have a student who owns a PC, and, when he tried to follow directions on the AATSEEL website about downloading a Russian font, he didn't succeed.Can you suggest something in addition to those instructions? I am a Mac user, so I couldn't help him.Many thanks,Olga Zaslavsky, PhD > >> Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 14:46:32 -0400 >> From: mdenner at STETSON.EDU >> Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age >> To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >> > >> >> One of my first assignments is for them to download an ASDF keyboard (like Russian for Gringos) or use translit.ru and type me a message. We do a lot of free-writing and I require all of it to be sent by email to me for correction. >> >> >> >> > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sarahhurst at ALASKA.NET Thu Sep 9 22:55:39 2010 From: sarahhurst at ALASKA.NET (sarah hurst) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 14:55:39 -0800 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have to say that I am rather disturbed by the idea that today's students no longer even need to learn Russian handwriting. Are we raising kids who are going to be completely at a loss if they should ever find themselves without access to a computer, cell phone or other digital device? Is such a scenario really so implausible, especially in Russian-speaking countries where limited internet access and power outages have been known? It doesn't even take very long to learn handwriting but I do think it's an essential skill for both reading and writing. What if they happen to work with historical documents? What if a room-mate leaves them an important note? I hope this skill will continue to be taught. Would you similarly contemplate not bothering to teach English-speaking kids not to write their own language by hand? Sarah Hurst ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mdenner at STETSON.EDU Thu Sep 9 23:05:59 2010 From: mdenner at STETSON.EDU (Michael Denner) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 19:05:59 -0400 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age In-Reply-To: <125652BDC6D5427F860255B8A7F18245@mr21590043443b> Message-ID: Sarah, My students write Russian just fine. It's just not cursive. They write like children, and the Russians probably smirk at them. Who cares? No one's suggesting returning to a pre-literate era. It's just a bloody waste of time to spend a week, a day, an hour on a totally unnecessary skill: Pretty handwriting. ~mad ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*    Dr. Michael A. Denner    Associate Professor of Russian Studies    Editor, Tolstoy Studies Journal Director, Russian Studies Program    Director, University Honors Program       Contact Information:       Russian Studies Program       Stetson University       Campus Box 8361       DeLand, FL 32720-3756       386.822.7381 (department)       386.822.7265 (direct line)       386.822.7380 (fax)       google talk michaeladenner       www.stetson.edu/~mdenner -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of sarah hurst Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 6:56 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age I have to say that I am rather disturbed by the idea that today's students no longer even need to learn Russian handwriting. Are we raising kids who are going to be completely at a loss if they should ever find themselves without access to a computer, cell phone or other digital device? Is such a scenario really so implausible, especially in Russian-speaking countries where limited internet access and power outages have been known? It doesn't even take very long to learn handwriting but I do think it's an essential skill for both reading and writing. What if they happen to work with historical documents? What if a room-mate leaves them an important note? I hope this skill will continue to be taught. Would you similarly contemplate not bothering to teach English-speaking kids not to write their own language by hand? Sarah Hurst ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From keyboard at SHKLAR.COM Thu Sep 9 23:15:10 2010 From: keyboard at SHKLAR.COM (Gene Shklar) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 18:15:10 -0500 Subject: Horace Gray Lunt, 1918-2010 Message-ID: A detailed description of Prof. Lunt's achievements and career is available at http://www.huri.harvard.edu/na/2010_08_11.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sarahhurst at ALASKA.NET Thu Sep 9 23:17:45 2010 From: sarahhurst at ALASKA.NET (sarah hurst) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 15:17:45 -0800 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for the clarification, Michael. I would have thought that cursive was about writing fluently and easily rather than just for appearances' sake, but perhaps it's possible to write quickly letter by letter too. Sarah -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Michael Denner Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 3:06 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age Sarah, My students write Russian just fine. It's just not cursive. They write like children, and the Russians probably smirk at them. Who cares? No one's suggesting returning to a pre-literate era. It's just a bloody waste of time to spend a week, a day, an hour on a totally unnecessary skill: Pretty handwriting. ~mad ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*    Dr. Michael A. Denner    Associate Professor of Russian Studies    Editor, Tolstoy Studies Journal Director, Russian Studies Program    Director, University Honors Program       Contact Information:       Russian Studies Program       Stetson University       Campus Box 8361       DeLand, FL 32720-3756       386.822.7381 (department)       386.822.7265 (direct line)       386.822.7380 (fax)       google talk michaeladenner       www.stetson.edu/~mdenner -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of sarah hurst Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 6:56 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age I have to say that I am rather disturbed by the idea that today's students no longer even need to learn Russian handwriting. Are we raising kids who are going to be completely at a loss if they should ever find themselves without access to a computer, cell phone or other digital device? Is such a scenario really so implausible, especially in Russian-speaking countries where limited internet access and power outages have been known? It doesn't even take very long to learn handwriting but I do think it's an essential skill for both reading and writing. What if they happen to work with historical documents? What if a room-mate leaves them an important note? I hope this skill will continue to be taught. Would you similarly contemplate not bothering to teach English-speaking kids not to write their own language by hand? Sarah Hurst ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3123 - Release Date: 09/08/10 22:34:00 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From grylkova at UFL.EDU Thu Sep 9 23:20:50 2010 From: grylkova at UFL.EDU (RYLKOVA,GALINA S) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 19:20:50 -0400 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age Message-ID: Michael, I'm teaching second-year Russian this fall and have 18 students four days a week. Needless to say, it is a very big group for a conversation class and one needs to move very fast to allow everyone to practice words and expressions, ask questions, etc. They all had different instructors at the first level. Those who write in cursive can follow my writing on the board, and those who print do it twice as slowly and are always behind. Try printing a Russian "D" for example. If properly mastered, cursive saves a lot of time and gives pleasure to students at the early stages (I know it from teaching first-year students on a regular basis). All the best, Galina On Thu Sep 09 19:05:59 EDT 2010, Michael Denner wrote: > Sarah, > My students write Russian just fine. It's just not cursive. They > write like children, and the Russians probably smirk at them. Who > cares? No one's suggesting returning to a pre-literate era. It's > just a bloody waste of time to spend a week, a day, an hour on a > totally unnecessary skill: Pretty handwriting. ~mad > > ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* > ???? Dr. Michael A. Denner > ???? Associate Professor of Russian Studies > ???? Editor, Tolstoy Studies Journal > Director, Russian Studies Program > ???? Director, University Honors Program > > ???? ???? Contact Information: > ?????????? Russian Studies Program > ?????????? Stetson University > ?????????? Campus Box 8361 > ?????????? DeLand, FL 32720-3756 > ?????????? 386.822.7381 (department) > ?????????? 386.822.7265 (direct line) > ?????????? 386.822.7380 (fax) > > ?????????? google talk michaeladenner > ?????????? www.stetson.edu/~mdenner > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures > list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of sarah hurst > Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 6:56 PM > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian handwriting in US classrooms in > the computer age > > I have to say that I am rather disturbed by the idea that today's > students > no longer even need to learn Russian handwriting. Are we raising > kids who > are going to be completely at a loss if they should ever find > themselves > without access to a computer, cell phone or other digital device? > Is such a > scenario really so implausible, especially in Russian-speaking > countries > where limited internet access and power outages have been known? > > It doesn't even take very long to learn handwriting but I do > think it's an > essential skill for both reading and writing. What if they happen > to work > with historical documents? What if a room-mate leaves them an > important > note? I hope this skill will continue to be taught. Would you > similarly > contemplate not bothering to teach English-speaking kids not to > write their > own language by hand? Sarah Hurst > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web > Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web > Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- Galina S. Rylkova Associate Professor of Russian Undergraduate Coordinator for Russian Studies Literatures, Languages and Cultures Office hours: Tuesdays 1 p.m. - 3 p.m. 256 Dauer Hall University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611 USA grylkova at ufl.edu http://www.languages.ufl.edu/russian ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From moss at MIDDLEBURY.EDU Thu Sep 9 23:40:15 2010 From: moss at MIDDLEBURY.EDU (Kevin Moss) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 19:40:15 -0400 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Who said anything about pretty? Comprehensible is what I would aim for. My colleague has already weighed in on what we do in first year. Second year we have daily handwritten assignments (I just graded a huge stack of them, 13 students x 8 pages or so... two day's homeworks plus a quiz). I don't care how beautiful they are, but I do have to be able to decipher them, and for that I would certainly insist on hooks for м, л, я and that they not leave ш hanging up in the air like an English w or write и for й. Another colleague tells me that now Russians themselves are writing any which way, using printed letters in their own script, etc. As long as it doesn't get in the way of comprehension, fine (and there are certain limits on chicken- scratchings beyond which I won't go). They also have to be able to read cursive as in курсив or they won't be able to understand many signs or passages in writing that use italics. I agree with Pat's comment about the added value of handwriting as kinesthetic learning. I suppose one could argue for something similar with typing sequences, but I'm not sure. To get back to Richard's original question, short exercises that require typing are one thing, and I do want them to learn the gosstandart keyboard because that's what they'll mostly encounter in Russia. They will have to use it at least to google or yandex things in Russian. I do not, however, encourage them at the second year level to use the computer for written homeworks (most of which are tear-out) or even translations or short answers, since it just adds one more layer of possibilities for error, and there are quite enough of those without adding typing errors to the mix (э for з for example). That being said, if they want to risk adding to their error-quotient while learning to type, more power to them! KM On Sep 9, 2010, at 7:05 PM, Michael Denner wrote: > Sarah, > My students write Russian just fine. It's just not cursive. They > write like children, and the Russians probably smirk at them. Who > cares? No one's suggesting returning to a pre-literate era. It's > just a bloody waste of time to spend a week, a day, an hour on a > totally unnecessary skill: Pretty handwriting. > > ~mad > > ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* > Dr. Michael A. Denner > Associate Professor of Russian Studies > Editor, Tolstoy Studies Journal > Director, Russian Studies Program > Director, University Honors Program > > > Contact Information: > Russian Studies Program > Stetson University > Campus Box 8361 > DeLand, FL 32720-3756 > 386.822.7381 (department) > 386.822.7265 (direct line) > 386.822.7380 (fax) > > google talk michaeladenner > www.stetson.edu/~mdenner > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures > list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of sarah hurst > Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 6:56 PM > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the > computer age > > I have to say that I am rather disturbed by the idea that today's > students > no longer even need to learn Russian handwriting. Are we raising > kids who > are going to be completely at a loss if they should ever find > themselves > without access to a computer, cell phone or other digital device? Is > such a > scenario really so implausible, especially in Russian-speaking > countries > where limited internet access and power outages have been known? > > It doesn't even take very long to learn handwriting but I do think > it's an > essential skill for both reading and writing. What if they happen to > work > with historical documents? What if a room-mate leaves them an > important > note? > > I hope this skill will continue to be taught. Would you similarly > contemplate not bothering to teach English-speaking kids not to > write their > own language by hand? > > Sarah Hurst > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Thu Sep 9 23:42:18 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 19:42:18 -0400 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Michael Denner wrote: > My students write Russian just fine. It's just not cursive. They > write like children, and the Russians probably smirk at them. Who > cares? No one's suggesting returning to a pre-literate era. It's just > a bloody waste of time to spend a week, a day, an hour on a totally > unnecessary skill: Pretty handwriting. I suppose it matters what their purpose is in taking the class. If they're hard science majors wanting to get through a year of the language to meet a requirement and perhaps stumble through the odd journal article in their fields, handwriting won't serve any useful purpose. If they're majoring in Russian or have some other serious use for the language and don't want their counterparts to smirk at them, I'd say it's part of the culture and they should learn it, just as an Arabic student learns to sit on his left hand at the dinner table and a Japanese student learns to bow on meeting a superior. And Galina Rylkova's point about speed is well taken, though I confess I've occasionally been baffled when I saw words like пишите in my notes: 12 bumps and a "е"??? ;-) -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From oothappam at earthlink.net Fri Sep 10 01:12:27 2010 From: oothappam at earthlink.net (oothappam) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 18:12:27 -0700 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age Message-ID: In the short time that I've been involved with Russian people, I've every December received from kind friends in Russia several beautifully handwritten New Year cards with handwritten verses(it amazes me-they write out verses!Nobody in America does that!) and messages inside. Although they all probably have rather low expectations of me as they know I am only learning Russian, I do send them cards too and write to them in my feeble Russian cursive as well. If I printed , I'd feel silly and maybe a bit tacky. My correspondents and I are all in our 40's and 50's, whereas you are dealing with young adults in college classes. It's true we are in a new world now and maybe many Russian urban youth are busy with typing on computers, texting, writing graffiti somewhere in block letters or otherwise concentrating on not doing whatever their parents did. It will be exciting for college students who are learning Russian to connect with Russian kids their age by computer and cursive wouldn't be important there. But it seems so sad to think that later if they visit Russia, they'll miss out on some of the niceties if they can't write in cursive. (How to favorably impress a perspective mother-in-law?) I don't think anybody misses shorthand, for example, as it was only needed for business situations. But cursive writing seems more an important cultural skill, a grace.. and the appearance of keyboards in everyday life isn't really a complete replacement, at least to me. Nola -----Original Message----- >From: Michael Denner >Sent: Sep 9, 2010 4:05 PM >To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age > >Sarah, >My students write Russian just fine. It's just not cursive. They write like children, and the Russians probably smirk at them. Who cares? No one's suggesting returning to a pre-literate era. It's just a bloody waste of time to spend a week, a day, an hour on a totally unnecessary skill: Pretty handwriting. > >~mad > >~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* >   Dr. Michael A. Denner >   Associate Professor of Russian Studies >   Editor, Tolstoy Studies Journal > Director, Russian Studies Program >   Director, University Honors Program > >   >   Contact Information: >      Russian Studies Program >      Stetson University >      Campus Box 8361 >      DeLand, FL 32720-3756 >      386.822.7381 (department) >      386.822.7265 (direct line) >      386.822.7380 (fax) > >      google talk michaeladenner >      www.stetson.edu/~mdenner > >-----Original Message----- >From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of sarah hurst >Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 6:56 PM >To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age > >I have to say that I am rather disturbed by the idea that today's students >no longer even need to learn Russian handwriting. Are we raising kids who >are going to be completely at a loss if they should ever find themselves >without access to a computer, cell phone or other digital device? Is such a >scenario really so implausible, especially in Russian-speaking countries >where limited internet access and power outages have been known? > >It doesn't even take very long to learn handwriting but I do think it's an >essential skill for both reading and writing. What if they happen to work >with historical documents? What if a room-mate leaves them an important >note? > >I hope this skill will continue to be taught. Would you similarly >contemplate not bothering to teach English-speaking kids not to write their >own language by hand? > >Sarah Hurst > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From oothappam at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Sep 10 01:20:08 2010 From: oothappam at EARTHLINK.NET (oothappam) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 18:20:08 -0700 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age/ Q about downloading a Russian font on a PC Message-ID: oh!--I didn't mean that. The CD says that, but it hasn't got any actual real Windows stuff..it only changes settings enough to set up that toggle thing in the taskbar so you can switch from English to Russian letters. The guy selling this is making a killing.It cost about $15.00 and with the name "Russian support for Windows" sounds impressive. It's a good deal for lazybones like me who hate muddling around with their computers but one can do the same setup in a few minutes if they understand the directions well. Sorry I did not explain it better! Nola -----Original Message----- >From: Michael Denner >Sent: Sep 9, 2010 4:08 PM >To: oothappam >Subject: RE: [SEELANGS] Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age/ Q about downloading a Russian font on a PC > >Nola, You're talking about something very different and much more complex: You've installed a Russian operating system so that it's possible, if you push the right buttons, to get drop-down menus, help, file info, etc in Russian. I suppose that's useful. But we're talking here about something much simpler and more needful: Kак печатать по-русски? No need for installing Windows support to do that... > >~mad > >~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* >   Dr. Michael A. Denner >   Associate Professor of Russian Studies >   Editor, Tolstoy Studies Journal > Director, Russian Studies Program >   Director, University Honors Program > >   >   Contact Information: >      Russian Studies Program >      Stetson University >      Campus Box 8361 >      DeLand, FL 32720-3756 >      386.822.7381 (department) >      386.822.7265 (direct line) >      386.822.7380 (fax) > >      google talk michaeladenner >      www.stetson.edu/~mdenner > > >-----Original Message----- >From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of oothappam >Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 6:35 PM >To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age/ Q about downloading a Russian font on a PC > >I got tired of going through all that with different computers so just gave up and bought a CD that has "Windows Russian Support" on it. I found it on ebay. Perhaps if one person in the department gets that, they can share it and install on student's PCs if they request it.I used it for Windows 98 and Wiindows 7 and it's worked on both OS's. >The CD is actually a set. One installs all the settings to get Russian set up and the other installs a set of Russian fonts. All you need after that is a set of stickers for the keys and you're set. >I found the stickers very cheap on ebay too. >Nola > > >-----Original Message----- >>From: Olga Zaslavsky >>Sent: Sep 9, 2010 3:25 PM >>To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >>Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age/ Q about downloading a Russian font on a PC >> >>Dear Michael, >> >>I have a student who owns a PC, and, when he tried to follow directions on the AATSEEL website about downloading a Russian font, he didn't succeed.Can you suggest something in addition to those instructions? I am a Mac user, so I couldn't help him.Many thanks,Olga Zaslavsky, PhD >> >>> Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 14:46:32 -0400 >>> From: mdenner at STETSON.EDU >>> Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age >>> To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >>> >> >>> >>> One of my first assignments is for them to download an ASDF keyboard (like Russian for Gringos) or use translit.ru and type me a message. We do a lot of free-writing and I require all of it to be sent by email to me for correction. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >>------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From j.hacking at UTAH.EDU Fri Sep 10 01:34:29 2010 From: j.hacking at UTAH.EDU (Jane Frances Hacking) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 19:34:29 -0600 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age In-Reply-To: <4C8970DA.3050101@pbg-translations.com> Message-ID: Dear SEELANGERS, I recall there being a discussion in the US regarding SAT essay performance and the cursive question. Here is a quick link I dug up about the issue. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001475.html I don't know the research referred to in the article, but the references to work on the connection between speed of writing (cursive being faster) and complexity of essays produced by students is intriguing. Also the connection between grading by teachers being dependent on quality of handwriting is sobering. Although presumably as the teacher cadre is replenished with printers and typers this effect will disappear(?) Best, Jane Hacking ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Paul B. Gallagher [paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM] Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 5:42 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age Michael Denner wrote: > My students write Russian just fine. It's just not cursive. They > write like children, and the Russians probably smirk at them. Who > cares? No one's suggesting returning to a pre-literate era. It's just > a bloody waste of time to spend a week, a day, an hour on a totally > unnecessary skill: Pretty handwriting. I suppose it matters what their purpose is in taking the class. If they're hard science majors wanting to get through a year of the language to meet a requirement and perhaps stumble through the odd journal article in their fields, handwriting won't serve any useful purpose. If they're majoring in Russian or have some other serious use for the language and don't want their counterparts to smirk at them, I'd say it's part of the culture and they should learn it, just as an Arabic student learns to sit on his left hand at the dinner table and a Japanese student learns to bow on meeting a superior. And Galina Rylkova's point about speed is well taken, though I confess I've occasionally been baffled when I saw words like пишите in my notes: 12 bumps and a "е"??? ;-) -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From chaput at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Sep 10 02:08:57 2010 From: chaput at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Patricia Chaput) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 22:08:57 -0400 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Response to: "But for all written work I accept printed (печатные буквы) Russian. I send 4-6 students a year to Russia and I've never heard a complaint." It seems to me very odd to accept (and thereby encourage) a form of writing that not even Russian children are taught. Once Russian children enter школа they are taught cursive; печатные буквы are only for дошкольники and essentially for letter recognition (pre-reading). I also think we should be concerned about the possible smirking, that when students are not taught to write in the form that educated native adults command, then they are not themselves perceived as educated adults. In a worst-case scenario, they will be seen as incompetent and perhaps incapable of learning anything very complicated, deprived of respect for the abilities they have. Students who "signal" incompetence may never be offered challenges that they are perfectly capable of meeting, if their teachers or employers do not believe them capable. We also have to consider that these students may be unaware of what they are signaling, since printing is acceptable in North America and increasingly common. These students may not be complaining because they may be unaware of the impression they are conveying. Or, if their friends tease them, they may simply accept it as teasing and believe it unimportant (if their native language experience is that printing is a non-issue! ). For students who print in English, there is an easy compromise for Russian cursive. Many Russians put breaks between letters when they write (picking up the pen and then starting a new letter without having every letter connected). If students who are printers use the cursive shapes of the letters, but aren't required to connect all letters, they can produce a very legible and acceptable form of writing that looks like cursive and doesn't carry the negative associations of printing. Since students have to acquire some form of writing, it is not much more trouble for them to learn the cursive shapes, and they will in fact be able to write faster. We used to have students begin with printing, then learn cursive, but years ago we cut out the printing stage and just have them learn cursive letter shapes. It is my impression that they learn to write the cursive shapes more quickly, perhaps because the cursive shapes are in many cases easier to write, with fewer strokes. Certainly their "printed cursive" is easier for me to read than the odd block letter shapes they used to come up with. And since most printers do in fact connect letters, letting the pencil drag to the next letter, they tend to do the same with the "printed cursive" and end up producing cursive. When we began with printing and moved to cursive, learning cursive seemed to some students to be a burden, but when we eliminated the printing stage and just started students with "printed cursive" the burden seemed to disappear. As to the technology argument, we are far from living in a world in which the technology is always working, computers never crash, batteries never die, the printer is always working (and we have the right printer software), and we all have our electronic writing devices at hand and turned on--if we would even want that. Pat Chaput Harvard University ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From asured at VERIZON.NET Fri Sep 10 08:18:19 2010 From: asured at VERIZON.NET (Steve Marder) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 04:18:19 -0400 Subject: FREE to a good home -- follow-up In-Reply-To: <2D893073832A41C9A829ADC327C87029@owner2ef280411> Message-ID: Many thanks to all those who responded. The book was "served" to the lucky individual within 24 minutes of my original posting. Please, no more requests. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Fri Sep 10 09:31:25 2010 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 10:31:25 +0100 Subject: Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: <36021442-79DE-4B38-B2CB-0E7CBC4F5DAB@comcast.net> Message-ID: With regard to Daniel's Q.E.D., "Alice through the Looking Glass" springs to mind: `When /I/ use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.' ... `That's a great deal to make one word mean,' Alice said in a thoughtful tone. `When I make a word do a lot of work like that,' said Humpty Dumpty, `I always pay it extra.' The bonus that Daniel is paying "deity" must be of Goldman Sachs proportions!/ / Will On 09/09/2010 21:10, Daniel Rancour-Laferriere wrote: > Dear Wayles, > Thank you for bringing this linguistic clarity to my original question when you wrote: > >> the discussion has also made me think about a more linguistic topic: the multiple meanings of the prefix co-. Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary says it rather clearly: >> "1: with; together; joint; jointly >> 2: in or to the same degree >> 3a: one that is associated in an action with another; fellow; partner b: having a usually lesser share in duty or responsibility: alternate; deputy >> ..." >> The prefix wasn't used much in classical Latin in meaning 3a or 3b; there are many nouns beginning with com-, con-, col-, cor-, and co-, but very few of them mean 'fellow anything'. A conservus was indeed a fellow slave, but a corruptor was by no means a fellow breaker. So these 'together; same; associated; deputy' meanings must have become more widely used in medieval Latin and then spread to modern languages. >> >> If I am somebody's coauthor or coworker, that person is also my coauthor or coworker; but if I am a copilot to a pilot, the pilot is not my copilot. 3a is about symmetrical relationships whereas 3b is about asymmetrical relationships. >> >> In the religious context, it is evidently necessary to reject the view that Mary is a co- anything to Jesus in meaning 3a, but seemingly co- in sense 3b could be used with various agent nouns to tell about her roles? > > This is correct, for most of the sources listed among the references in the footnote I provided are careful to stipulate that Mary had a "subordinate" role. Also, "coredemptrix" (or its equivalents in other languages) goes back to the fifteenth century at the earliest, according to Laurentin (the leading Catholic mariologist of the twentieth century). > > That is language. Now, religion. Since there has been a proliferation of religious discussion about this matter on this list, I will contribute by simply quoting from my book THE JOY OF ALL WHO SORROW (Moscow, 2005). It appears that the Russian Orthodox Mary is as much a deity as is the Roman Catholic coredemptrix. (But this would not be surprising in view of the Orthodox notion of theosis): > > >> Mary�s death, like Christ�s, is temporary, for she, too, rises up bodily into heaven according to Orthodox belief: �The Church has always believed that Her body was taken up into heaven� � to quote a standard Russian Orthodox reference work.[i] Thus the Dormition or Assumption of Mary (�Uspenie�) is rather like the Ascension of Christ (�Voznesenie�). Georgii Fedotov speaks of Mary as �having ascended into the divine world to the point of indistinguishability from the heavenly God.�[ii] Metropolitan Sergii utilizes the same word -- �ascension� � to characterize Mary�s Assumption as is ordinarily applied to Christ�s postmortem ascent. He goes on to say: �The flesh of the Mother of God, having become like the flesh of the Resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, had already undergone that change from decay to non-decay which will come to all other people only after the general resurrection.�[iii] >> >> The transformation of Mary from dead flesh to a resurrected, ascended body means that she is divine. As Sergii Bulgakov says, Mary is a �totally divinized creature.�[iv] Leonid Uspenskii speaks of her �divinization� (�obozhenie�).[v] In Vladimir Lossky�s words, she is �the sole human person deified.�[vi] >> >> >> [i] . Polnyi pravoslavnyi bogoslovskii entsiklopedicheskii slovar� (1992 [1913]), vol. 2, col. 2206. Cf. Brianchaninov 1995 (1886), 436. >> >> Among Orthodox Christians it is widely believed that Mary also descended into Hell, just as Christ did (for example: Strotmann 1959, 191; Hubbs 1988, 108). She is sometimes shown on icons of the Last Judgement, and appears in the songs about the Last Judgement. >> >> >> >> >> >> [ii] . Fedotov 1991 (1935), 49. Fedotov does recognize that some of the (theologically incorrect) spiritual songs represent Mary�s body as remaining on earth in the form of her relics (51). >> >> >> >> [iii] . Sergii 1989 (1932), 118. Cf. Bulgakov 1927, 124. >> >> >> >> [iv] . Bulgakov 1927, 128 (cf. 130). >> >> >> >> [v] . Uspenskii 1989, 28. >> >> >> >> [vi] . In Ouspensky and Lossky 1982, 76. In the West too Mary is sometimes divinized or otherwise aggrandized. She is Mater Gloriosa, �the Woman Clothed with the Sun,� �Queen of Heaven,� and so forth. See, for example: Pelikan 1996. >> >> > > So, back to language: if she is "deified," as Lossky says, I think it is safe to say that she is a "deity." > > Q.E.D. > > DRL > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Fri Sep 10 10:33:04 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 11:33:04 +0100 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age In-Reply-To: <4C899339.8050504@fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: My Mom saw my Russian cursive handwriting once, and though she couldn't read it, she said, "It looks like your English handwriting!" Funny how certain recognizable patterns persist across languages and alphabets, eh? Stephanie ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ On 10 September 2010 03:08, Patricia Chaput wrote: > Response to: > > "But for all written work I accept printed (печатные буквы) Russian. I send > 4-6 students a year to Russia and I've never heard a complaint." > > It seems to me very odd to accept (and thereby encourage) a form of writing > that not even Russian children are taught. Once Russian children enter > школа they are taught cursive; печатные буквы are only for дошкольники and > essentially for letter recognition (pre-reading). > I also think we should be concerned about the possible smirking, that when > students are not taught to write in the form that educated native adults > command, then they are not themselves perceived as educated adults. In a > worst-case scenario, they will be seen as incompetent and perhaps incapable > of learning anything very complicated, deprived of respect for the abilities > they have. Students who "signal" incompetence may never be offered > challenges that they are perfectly capable of meeting, if their teachers or > employers do not believe them capable. We also have to consider that these > students may be unaware of what they are signaling, since printing is > acceptable in North America and increasingly common. These students may not > be complaining because they may be unaware of the impression they are > conveying. Or, if their friends tease them, they may simply accept it as > teasing and believe it unimportant (if their native language experience is > that printing is a non-issue! > ). > > For students who print in English, there is an easy compromise for Russian > cursive. Many Russians put breaks between letters when they write (picking > up the pen and then starting a new letter without having every letter > connected). If students who are printers use the cursive shapes of the > letters, but aren't required to connect all letters, they can produce a very > legible and acceptable form of writing that looks like cursive and doesn't > carry the negative associations of printing. Since students have to acquire > some form of writing, it is not much more trouble for them to learn the > cursive shapes, and they will in fact be able to write faster. > We used to have students begin with printing, then learn cursive, but years > ago we cut out the printing stage and just have them learn cursive letter > shapes. It is my impression that they learn to write the cursive shapes > more quickly, perhaps because the cursive shapes are in many cases easier to > write, with fewer strokes. Certainly their "printed cursive" is easier for > me to read than the odd block letter shapes they used to come up with. And > since most printers do in fact connect letters, letting the pencil drag to > the next letter, they tend to do the same with the "printed cursive" and end > up producing cursive. > > When we began with printing and moved to cursive, learning cursive seemed > to some students to be a burden, but when we eliminated the printing stage > and just started students with "printed cursive" the burden seemed to > disappear. > > As to the technology argument, we are far from living in a world in which > the technology is always working, computers never crash, batteries never > die, the printer is always working (and we have the right printer software), > and we all have our electronic writing devices at hand and turned on--if we > would even want that. > Pat Chaput > Harvard University > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From gillespie.20 at ND.EDU Fri Sep 10 13:27:13 2010 From: gillespie.20 at ND.EDU (Alyssa Gillespie) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 09:27:13 -0400 Subject: Job posting: Assistant Dean, U. of Notre Dame Message-ID: Assistant Dean in the College of Arts and Letters University of Notre Dame The College of Arts and Letters at the University of Notre Dame seeks applications for the position of Assistant Dean in the Office for Undergraduate Studies. This person will report to the Associate Dean for Undergraduate Studies and join a dynamic team of dedicated Assistant Deans who advise undergraduate students regarding their academic programs. Rank and salary for this 12-month, full-time special professional (regular, non-tenure track) faculty position commensurate with credentials and experience. Responsibilities include: monitoring student progress toward the completion of college, university, and major requirements according to our academic guidelines; maintaining accurate records of advising sessions; advising and approving students applying for international studies programs; engaging in projects as requested by the Associate Dean; collaborating with faculty and departments concerning curriculum and instruction matters; serving on College and University committees as requested; and supporting the stated mission of the University and the College. Assistant Deans work collaboratively to assist in other duties such as overseeing the course registration process in the College, assessing transfer admissions to the college, providing academic orientation for admitted transfer students, and working with other offices and programs on campus to identify and meet student needs. Assistant Deans may occasionally also choose to teach classes in the College of Arts and Letters in addition to their regular duties, as negotiated with the Associate Dean for Undergraduate Studies and the Dean of the College of Arts and Letters. Candidates should possess the following qualifications: an advanced degree in the humanities, arts, or social sciences (Ph.D. strongly preferred; minimum M.A. or M.F.A.); minimum 3-5 years of experience as a college-level teacher or administrator with at least 1-3 years of formal academic advising experience at the college level; strong communication skills in both speaking and writing; and strong interpersonal skills with demonstrated ability to work well with students, faculty, and administrators. To apply, send a cover letter, curriculum vitae, and three letters of reference from previous supervisors (the latter to be sent separately). Additional letters or evaluations from previous advisees are welcome. Applications should be addressed to: Associate Dean JoAnn DellaNeva, College of Arts and Letters, 104 O’Shaughnessy Hall, University of Notre Dame, Notre Dame, IN 46556. Review of applications will begin September 30, 2010, with preference given to complete applications received by that date. This appointment will begin as soon as possible after hiring. The University of Notre Dame, an international Catholic research university, founded by the Congregation of Holy Cross, is an equal opportunity/affirmative action employer, with a strong commitment to fostering a culturally diverse atmosphere for faculty, staff, and students. Women, minorities, and those attracted to a university with a Catholic identity are encouraged to apply. Information about Notre Dame, including our mission statement, is available at http:// www.nd.edu. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Poole at AMERICANCOUNCILS.ORG Fri Sep 10 16:55:37 2010 From: Poole at AMERICANCOUNCILS.ORG (Kitt Poole) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:55:37 -0400 Subject: Job posting: Managing Director, Flagship Language Programs In-Reply-To: A<0B5F1C20-6E8D-4855-9F04-E7A8C5348E9D@nd.edu> Message-ID: American Councils for International Education announces a new position for Managing Director, Language Flagship Programs: Based in Washington, DC, the Flagship Managing Director oversees American Councils Language Flagship Programs, including the Arabic Overseas Flagship Program (Damascus, Syria; Alexandria, Egypt), the Central Asian Turkic Overseas Flagship Programs (across Central Asia), the Overseas Russian Flagship Program (St. Petersburg Russia), the Persian and Tajik Overseas Flagship Program (Dushanbe, Tajikistan), the Swahili Overseas Flagship Program (Zanzibar, Tanzania), the Yoruba Overseas Flagship Program (Ibadan, Nigeria), the Bambara Overseas Flagship Program (Mali), the Zulu Overseas Flagship Program (South Africa), the Chinese Overseas Flagship Program (Nanjing and Qingdao, China) and the Russian Overseas Flagship Program (St. Petersburg, Russia). The Managing Director will supervise a staff in the U.S. and overseas. American Councils continues to play a dynamic role in the growth and development of Flagship language study overseas. The Managing Director reports to the America! n Councils Vice President. The Flagship Language Program is designed to train superior speakers of critical languages in an intensive, overseas immersion setting. Advanced students of Arabic, Central Asian languages, Persian, and Russian receive NSEP funding to participate in Flagship Programs, while others receive partial funding or funding from a variety of sources. Under the direction of the Managing Director, program staff members manage program logistics, support students pre-departure and overseas, and assists in curriculum development and program design. Program consultants provide curriculum design and evaluation. The Managing Director is also responsible for program development, overall program direction, and financial oversight of the programs. DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITIES: § Oversees daily operations of Arabic, Central Asian, Chinese Persian, Swahili, Yoruba and Russian Flagship (primarily overseas and some domestic) Programs; § Coordinates and works with American Councils program staff in management and development of Flagship programs, including admissions process, curricula, testing, recruitment and evaluation. § With Flagship Program Principal Investigator, Co-Principal Investigators, and consultants, assists in design, development and implementation of current and future Flagship programs; § Works with the Academic Councils and the Council chairs for each of the Flagship Programs, including responsibility for preparing the bi-annual meetings of each of the Councils in close cooperation with program staff and American Councils senior management; § Ensures academic oversight of the Flagship Programs provided by the Council chairs; § Communicates regularly and coordinates with U.S. granting agencies and program contractors, US and foreign institutional partners, including the Institute for International Education, NSEP, and Bryn Mawr College; § Supervises four direct reports in the U.S. with oversight of overseas staff working on Flagship programs; recruits and trains additional staff as program developments require; § Oversees institutional relations with overseas and U.S. university partners; § Oversees application process and selection committees for all Flagship Programs; § Oversees design, scheduling and coordination of orientation programs for Flagship participants; § Oversees coordination of participant testing and tracking of student progress throughout program period; § Ensures comprehensive and effective logistical support for staff and participants overseas; § Writes and edits reports, proposals, and promotional materials; § Oversees maintenance of Flagship websites; § Develops program budgets and tracks expenses; § Works closely with other outbound staff to coordinate Flagship activities with those of other programs as needed, including Russian Language and Area Studies Program, Eurasian Regional Language Program, and Title VIII Research Scholar Programs. QUALIFICATIONS: * Ph.D. in relevant field (area studies, education or second language acquisition) preferred; * Experience in managing study abroad programs required; * Excellent written and oral communication skills; * Excellent spoken and written skills in at least one of the target languages; * Outstanding organizational skills; * At least five years of program administration experience; * Database and spreadsheet skills preferred; * Knowledge of budgetary procedures, especially with regard to government grants preferred; * Knowledge of language and culture of at least one target region desirable. TO APPLY: Select this link and follow the prompts: https://home.eease.adp.com/recruit/?id=522188 Affirmative Action / Equal Opportunity Employer. American Councils improves education at home and abroad through the support of international research, the design of innovative programs, and the exchange of students, scholars, and professionals around the world. American Councils employs a full-time professional staff of over 370, located in the U.S. and in 40 cities in 24 countries of Eastern Europe, Eurasia, Asia and the Middle East. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Poole at AMERICANCOUNCILS.ORG Fri Sep 10 18:29:34 2010 From: Poole at AMERICANCOUNCILS.ORG (Kitt Poole) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:29:34 -0400 Subject: Job posting: Program Manager, National Security Language Institute Outbound Placement Message-ID: American Councils for International Education announces a new position for Program Manager, National Security Language Institute Outbound Placement: SUMMARY: Based in Washington, DC, the NSLI-Y Outbound Placement Program Manager will oversee administration of overseas programs for American high school students studying critical languages on summer, semester, and academic year programs. The National Security Language Initiative for Youth (NSLI-Y) is administered by the U.S. Department of State's Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs. The program provides scholarships for approximately 650 students annually to learn a new language, participate in an academic program, and become part of a community overseas with the goal of creating a cadre of Americans fluent in critical languages. See the NSLI-Y website (nsliforyouth.org) for more information. The position reports to the Vice President responsible for secondary school programs. . The Program Manager's primary responsibilities will include oversight and administration of the NSLI-Y Outbound Placement for American Councils high school programs in China, Russia, and Tajikistan and other sites as determined (approximately 200 students annually). Occasional travel in the United States and abroad is required. The position requires good planning and logistics skills, strong communications skills, strategic thinking, the ability to handle multiple tasks and work independently, and a readiness to communicate with diverse groups of people. A background working with high school students and dealing with high school programs is helpful. RESPONSIBILITIES: * Develops and administers immersion language programs overseas for U.S. high school students, for summer, semester, and academic year periods; * Oversees the hiring, contracting, and training of resident directors, consultants and overseas partners; * Organizes Washington, DC and overseas orientation programs for U.S. participants; * Submits quarterly and financial reporting to the Program Manager of NSLI-Y Administration for the funder; * Prepares agreements and budgets for overseas partners; * Works with student participants and monitors students during their programs overseas, including safety and security of homestays and program locations, as well as counseling; * Assists with grant and budget proposals; * Provides support to and oversight of the resident directors and foreign partners; * Develops and maintains materials for administration and promotion of programs including handbooks, applications, websites and brochures; * Maintains contact databases and uses existing participant databases; * Works with staff to facilitate the domestic and international travel of American participants, including correspondence, preparation of materials, and visa processing; * Works with second language acquisition methodologists to ensure that the NSLI-Y program meets its stated goals (this includes coordinating testing, reviewing syllabi, and organizing trainings); * Coordinates with Program Manager of China Programs regarding the program in China, program administration, participant monitoring, on-program support, and partners in China; * Provides supervision, guidance and training to Program Officer and other program staff; * Provides support for secondary school programs as needed. QUALIFICATIONS: * Bachelor's degree required; Master's degree in education, second language acquisition or another relevant field strongly preferred; * Experience working with high school students; * Effective written and verbal communication skills in English and Russian required; Chinese a plus; * Experience designing and managing international programs; * Demonstrated organizational ability and problem-solving skills; * Ability to manage multiple priorities quickly and effectively; * Ability to work independently while contributing to an overall team effort; * Proven ability to exercise good judgment under pressure; * Financial management skills, including budget development and financial tracking; * Effective interpersonal skills; * Computer skills, including strong knowledge of Access, Excel, as well as experience with Drupal and social networking; * Strong commitment to the mission; * Experience with U.S. and other systems of secondary education; * Experience with international exchange participants and program administration. * Experience living abroad preferred. TO APPLY: Select this link and follow the prompts: https://home.eease.adp.com/recruit/?id=519700 Affirmative Action / Equal Opportunity Employer. American Councils improves education at home and abroad through the support of international research, the design of innovative programs, and the exchange of students, scholars, and professionals around the world. American Councils employs a full-time professional staff of over 370, located in the U.S. and in 40 cities in 24 countries of Eastern Europe, Eurasia, Asia and the Middle East. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From emilyvb at GMAIL.COM Fri Sep 10 18:42:45 2010 From: emilyvb at GMAIL.COM (Emily VB) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:42:45 -0400 Subject: CFP NeMLA New Brunswick (Russian Representations of WWII) Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I am pasting below a call for papers for a seminar at the NeMLA in New Brunswick this spring. If interested, please contact me offlist, and/or send an abstract by Sept. 30. Best regards, Emily Van Buskirk Assistant Professor Dept. of Germanic, Russian, and East European Languages and Literatures Rutgers University 195 College Ave., New Brunswick, NJ 08901 Dept. phone: (732) 932-7201; fax: (732) 932-1111 evanbusk at rci.rutgers.edu Call for Papers Russian Representations of World War II (Seminar) 42nd Annual Convention, Northeast Modern Language Association (NeMLA) April 7-10, 2011 New Brunswick, NY – Hyatt New Brunswick Host Institution: Rutgers University This seminar invites papers on Russian representations of the Second World War in diverse artistic and rhetorical modes (poetry, prose, journalism, music, visual art, film, translation). Papers might treat creative and documentary practices during the war (1941-45); the war as a cultural or intellectual moment; issues of narrative, memory, selfhood, and ethics. Seminar participants (of whom there will be 5-10) will submit 10-15 page papers for pre-circulation. Please send 250-word abstracts to evanbusk at rci.rutgers.edu (Emily Van Buskirk, Rutgers University) by September 30, 2010. Please include with your abstract: Name and Affiliation Email address A/V requirements (if any; $10 handling fee with registration) The 42nd Annual Convention will feature approximately 360 sessions, as well as dynamic speakers and cultural events. Interested participants may submit abstracts to more than one NeMLA session; however panelists can only present one paper (panel or seminar). Convention participants may present a paper at a panel and also present at a creative session or participate in a roundtable. Do not accept a slot if you may cancel to present on another session. Convenient links: Convention homepage: http://www.nemla.org/convention/2011/index.html CFP: http://www.nemla.org/convention/2011/cfp.html Russian/East European Panels: http://www.nemla.org/convention/2011/cfp.html#russian NeMLA homepage: http://www.nemla.org/ Membership and fees: http://www.nemla.org/about/information/membership.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From irina_servais at YAHOO.COM Fri Sep 10 19:20:53 2010 From: irina_servais at YAHOO.COM (Irina Servais) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:20:53 -0700 Subject: Job posting: Program Manager, National Security Language Institute Outbound Placement In-Reply-To: <7DFB6B205A306E4788C547513318C01D59C336@acie-mail.americancouncils.org> Message-ID: Thank you for the posting. It looks very interesting and promising. How do I apply?   Irina Tarnovskaya-Servais --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Kitt Poole wrote: From: Kitt Poole Subject: [SEELANGS] Job posting: Program Manager, National Security Language Institute Outbound Placement To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 2:29 PM American Councils for International Education announces a new position for Program Manager, National Security Language Institute Outbound Placement: SUMMARY: Based in Washington, DC, the NSLI-Y Outbound Placement Program Manager will oversee administration of overseas programs for American high school students studying critical languages on summer, semester, and academic year programs.  The National Security Language Initiative for Youth (NSLI-Y) is administered by the U.S. Department of State's Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs.  The program provides scholarships for approximately 650 students annually to learn a new language, participate in an academic program, and become part of a community overseas with the goal of creating a cadre of Americans fluent in critical languages.  See the NSLI-Y website (nsliforyouth.org) for more information.  The position reports to the Vice President responsible for secondary school programs.  .  The Program Manager's primary responsibilities will include oversight and administration of the NSLI-Y Outbound Placement for American Councils high school programs in China, Russia, and Tajikistan and other sites as determined (approximately 200 students annually). Occasional travel in the United States and abroad is required. The position requires good planning and logistics skills, strong communications skills, strategic thinking, the ability to handle multiple tasks and work independently, and a readiness to communicate with diverse groups of people. A background working with high school students and dealing with high school programs is helpful. RESPONSIBILITIES: *    Develops and administers immersion language programs overseas for U.S. high school students, for summer, semester, and academic year periods; *    Oversees the hiring, contracting, and training of resident directors, consultants and overseas partners; *    Organizes Washington, DC and overseas orientation programs for U.S. participants; *    Submits quarterly and financial reporting to the Program Manager of NSLI-Y Administration for the funder; *    Prepares agreements and budgets for overseas partners; *    Works with student participants and monitors students during their programs overseas, including safety and security of homestays and program locations, as well as counseling; *    Assists with grant and budget proposals; *    Provides support to and oversight of the resident directors and foreign partners; *    Develops and maintains materials for administration and promotion of programs including handbooks, applications, websites and brochures; *    Maintains contact databases and uses existing participant databases; *    Works with staff to facilitate the domestic and international travel of American participants, including correspondence, preparation of materials, and visa processing; *    Works with second language acquisition methodologists to ensure that the NSLI-Y program meets its stated goals (this includes coordinating testing, reviewing syllabi, and organizing trainings); *    Coordinates with Program Manager of China Programs regarding the program in China, program administration, participant monitoring, on-program support, and partners in China; *    Provides supervision, guidance and training to Program Officer and other program staff; *    Provides support for secondary school programs as needed. QUALIFICATIONS: *    Bachelor's degree  required; Master's degree in education, second language acquisition or another relevant field strongly preferred; *    Experience working with high school students; *    Effective written and verbal communication skills in English and Russian required; Chinese a plus; *    Experience designing and managing international programs; *    Demonstrated organizational ability and problem-solving skills; *    Ability to manage multiple priorities quickly and effectively; *    Ability to work independently while contributing to an overall team effort; *    Proven ability to exercise good judgment under pressure; *    Financial management skills, including budget development and financial tracking; *    Effective interpersonal skills; *    Computer skills, including strong knowledge of Access, Excel, as well as experience with Drupal and social networking; *    Strong commitment to the mission; *    Experience with U.S. and other systems of secondary education; *    Experience with international exchange participants and program administration. *    Experience living abroad preferred. TO APPLY: Select this link and follow the prompts: https://home.eease.adp.com/recruit/?id=519700 Affirmative Action / Equal Opportunity Employer. American Councils improves education at home and abroad through the support of international research, the design of innovative programs, and the exchange of students, scholars, and professionals around the world.  American Councils employs a full-time professional staff of over 370, located in the U.S. and in 40 cities in 24 countries of Eastern Europe, Eurasia, Asia and the Middle East. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription   options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at:                     http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From edseelangs at GMAIL.COM Fri Sep 10 20:43:15 2010 From: edseelangs at GMAIL.COM (Edward Dumanis) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 16:43:15 -0400 Subject: GPS directions, color schemes, and other linguistic universals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think that the answer on the color standards in Russia is quite simple. They had different size sets of color pencils used in day care centers and later on. There smallest of those pencil sets had the colors which were included in all other sets, and orange was just one of them with no relation to апельсины. Those pencils were the reference points. Sincerely, Edward Dumanis On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 6:44 AM, anne marie devlin wrote: > Just a memory re: oranzhevyi and it's place in the Russian language.  there is a song I vaguely remember my daughter learnt in detskyi sad which has the lines oranzhevoe nebo, oranzhevyi verblyud.  It seems to portray some sort of exotic even pyschodelic world.  if you take it in context with the Beatles Lucy in the sky with diamonds and the reference to tangerine dreams and marmalade skies, there is maybe some connection  in both languages between things of a yellowy/reddish hue and the fantastic??? > > Of course, here in Ireland, orange has completely different connotations > > AM > >> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 11:12:21 +0100 >> From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK >> Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] GPS directions, color schemes, and other linguistic universals >> To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >> >> Yes, an interesting article. It begins "Before I knew that school >> buses were yellow, I experienced them as tangerine." and mentions >> sinii/goluboi and Russian colour awareness. >> >> This prompted me to some "Wort und Sache" reflections. As a child in a >> largish working-class family in WW2 I did not see an orange until well >> after the war, and tangerines, satsumas etc re-emerged into general use >> several years later, and then only as rather exotic Christmas treats. So >> I don't know how I learned to identify orange as a colour. Presumably by >> instruction but without any specific point of reference. And I still >> would not normally employ tangerine as a first-choice colour term, and >> think of it as a word more likely to be seen in a fashion magazine or >> list of paint shades. My memory of American school buses is that they >> are indeed yellow. >> >> In the Russian context, as a student in Leningrad in the early sixties I >> never saw an orange or any other citrus fruit. I do in fact wonder if >> the word "oranzhevyi" is as common in Russian as "orange" (as a colour >> word) is in English. The etymological dictionaries suggest that >> "oranzhevyi" was a borrowing from French in the 1860s, while in English >> "orange" as a colour has been in use at least since the 16th century. In >> Russian the colour word does not have the mnemonic benefit of a >> corresponding fruit referent as the English does. And as far as I know >> "apel'sinovyi" is not commonly used as a colour word. So what did >> Russian use before they had "oranzhevyi" and is "oranzhevyi" a >> first-choice word now? A quick unscientific search on Google and Yandex >> suggests that "a yellow orange" is not a normal word combination in >> English while "zheltyi apel'sin" is quite possible in Russian. I imagine >> that "an orange orange" would be even less likely in English, since it >> is a jingle, while "oranzhevyi apel'sin" would be quite possible in Russian. >> >> Will Ryan >> >> On 07/09/2010 22:10, Paul B. Gallagher wrote: >> > >> > >> > Interesting musings by Ange Mlinko, with references to some recent >> > publications. >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >  Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >  options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >                    http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Fri Sep 10 20:57:35 2010 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 16:57:35 -0400 Subject: color orange In-Reply-To: <4C876185.80907@sas.ac.uk> Message-ID: Sep 8, 2010, в 6:12 AM, William Ryan написал(а): > > > In the Russian context, as a student in Leningrad in the early > sixties I never saw an orange or any other citrus fruit. I do in > fact wonder if the word "oranzhevyi" is as common in Russian as > "orange" (as a colour word) is in English. About at the same time you were in Leningrad, Arkanov and Gorin wrote this song Оранжевая песня (Написана вместе с Гр. Гориным в 1964 г.) Вот уже подряд два дня Я сижу — рисую. Красок много у меня — Выбирай любую. Я раскрашу целый свет В самый свой любимый цвет. Оранжевое небо, Оранжевое море, Оранжевая зелень, Оранжевый верблюд. Оранжевые мамы Оранжевым ребятам Оранжевые песни Оранжево поют. http://ironicpoetry.ru/autors/arkanov-arkadiy/oranzhevaya-pesnya.html Music by Pevzner. Listen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqwJvPSiL_I It was wildly popular those days. And still is. Alina Israeli Associate Professor of Russian LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave. Washington DC 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From edseelangs at GMAIL.COM Fri Sep 10 21:29:02 2010 From: edseelangs at GMAIL.COM (Edward Dumanis) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 17:29:02 -0400 Subject: Was Re: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: <36021442-79DE-4B38-B2CB-0E7CBC4F5DAB@comcast.net> Message-ID: Sorry but in Russian "обожествлять" someone means only to admire. Deity cannot be made of anyboby. Deity would either exist or not, and nothing more can be added to this. Sincerely, Edward Dumanis On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Daniel Rancour-Laferriere wrote: > Dear Wayles, > Thank you for bringing this linguistic clarity to my original question when you wrote: > >> the discussion has also made me think about a more linguistic topic: the multiple meanings of the prefix co-. Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary says it rather clearly: >> "1: with; together; joint; jointly >> 2: in or to the same degree >> 3a: one that is associated in an action with another; fellow; partner b: having a usually lesser share in duty or responsibility: alternate; deputy >> ..." >> The prefix wasn't used much in classical Latin in meaning 3a or 3b; there are many nouns beginning with com-, con-, col-, cor-, and co-, but very few of them mean 'fellow anything'. A conservus was indeed a fellow slave, but a corruptor was by no means a fellow breaker. So these 'together; same; associated; deputy' meanings must have become more widely used in medieval Latin and then spread to modern languages. >> >> If I am somebody's coauthor or coworker, that person is also my coauthor or coworker; but if I am a copilot to a pilot, the pilot is not my copilot. 3a is about symmetrical relationships whereas 3b is about asymmetrical relationships. >> >> In the religious context, it is evidently necessary to reject the view that Mary is a co- anything to Jesus in meaning 3a, but seemingly co- in sense 3b could be used with various agent nouns to tell about her roles? > > > This is correct, for most of the sources listed among the references in the footnote I provided are careful to stipulate that Mary had a "subordinate" role. Also, "coredemptrix" (or its equivalents in other languages) goes back to the fifteenth century at the earliest, according to Laurentin (the leading Catholic mariologist of the twentieth century). > > That is language. Now, religion. Since there has been a proliferation of religious discussion about this matter on this list, I will contribute by simply quoting from my book THE JOY OF ALL WHO SORROW (Moscow, 2005). It appears that the Russian Orthodox Mary is as much a deity as is the Roman Catholic coredemptrix. (But this would not be surprising in view of the Orthodox notion of theosis): > > >> Mary's death, like Christ's, is temporary, for she, too, rises up bodily into heaven according to Orthodox belief: "The Church has always believed that Her body was taken up into heaven" - to quote a standard Russian Orthodox reference work.[i] Thus the Dormition or Assumption of Mary ("Uspenie") is rather like the Ascension of Christ ("Voznesenie"). Georgii Fedotov speaks of Mary as "having ascended into the divine world to the point of indistinguishability from the heavenly God."[ii] Metropolitan Sergii utilizes the same word -- "ascension" - to characterize Mary's Assumption as is ordinarily applied to Christ's postmortem ascent. He goes on to say: "The flesh of the Mother of God, having become like the flesh of the Resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, had already undergone that change from decay to non-decay which will come to all other people only after the general resurrection."[iii] >> >> The transformation of Mary from dead flesh to a resurrected, ascended body means that she is divine. As Sergii Bulgakov says, Mary is a "totally divinized creature."[iv] Leonid Uspenskii speaks of her "divinization" ("obozhenie").[v] In Vladimir Lossky's words, she is "the sole human person deified."[vi] >> >> >> [i] . Polnyi pravoslavnyi bogoslovskii entsiklopedicheskii slovar' (1992 [1913]), vol. 2, col. 2206. Cf. Brianchaninov 1995 (1886), 436. >> >> Among Orthodox Christians it is widely believed that Mary also descended into Hell, just as Christ did (for example: Strotmann 1959, 191; Hubbs 1988, 108). She is sometimes shown on icons of the Last Judgement, and appears in the songs about the Last Judgement. >> >> >> >> >> >> [ii] . Fedotov 1991 (1935), 49. Fedotov does recognize that some of the (theologically incorrect) spiritual songs represent Mary's body as remaining on earth in the form of her relics (51). >> >> >> >> [iii] . Sergii 1989 (1932), 118. Cf. Bulgakov 1927, 124. >> >> >> >> [iv] . Bulgakov 1927, 128 (cf. 130). >> >> >> >> [v] . Uspenskii 1989, 28. >> >> >> >> [vi] . In Ouspensky and Lossky 1982, 76. In the West too Mary is sometimes divinized or otherwise aggrandized. She is Mater Gloriosa, "the Woman Clothed with the Sun," "Queen of Heaven," and so forth. See, for example: Pelikan 1996. >> >> > > > So, back to language: if she is "deified," as Lossky says, I think it is safe to say that she is a "deity." > > Q.E.D. > > DRL > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From powelstock at brandeis.edu Fri Sep 10 22:12:09 2010 From: powelstock at brandeis.edu (David Powelstock) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 18:12:09 -0400 Subject: Was Re: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Vladimir Solov'ev would have been surprised to hear this. David P. 2010/9/10 Edward Dumanis > > Deity cannot be made of anyboby. Deity would either exist or not, and > nothing more can be added to this. > > Sincerely, > Edward Dumanis > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From esjogren at NC.RR.COM Fri Sep 10 23:05:58 2010 From: esjogren at NC.RR.COM (Ernest Sjogren) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 19:05:58 -0400 Subject: Coredemptrix Message-ID: > With regard to Daniel's Q.E.D., "Alice through the Looking Glass" springs > to mind . . . instead of a logical refutation of his argument. You would prefer to retreat into fiction, it appears. "Deified" means nothing other than "made a god of; raised to the position of a god," of course. If your objection to referring to Mary as a deity is (if I may summarize how the argument progressed), "no Orthodox Christian, nor any other Christian. nor _anyone_ who has looked deeply into the matter thinks of or would refer to Mary as a deity," then the quotations cited are quite to the point. You ignore "quod _est demonstratum_" at your peril. Prof. Dumanis' assertion that "обожествлять" merely means "to admire" is much more pertinent. However, is it tenable? See, for instance, the online version of the Ushakov dictionary, which says: ОБОЖЕСТВИ́ТЬ, обожествлю, обожествишь, ·совер. (к обожествлять), кого-что (·книж. ). Признать имеющим сверхъестественную, божественную силу, божеством. Древние обожествили силы природы. [koi8-r encoding, see if my quotation is scrambled in transmission]. Ernie Sjogren ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From luciano.dicocco at TIN.IT Sat Sep 11 03:02:34 2010 From: luciano.dicocco at TIN.IT (Luciano Di Cocco) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 05:02:34 +0200 Subject: Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: <60C94CC2153C4B278A9FB10C7E30118C@DAD> Message-ID: This discussion is obviously only marginally connected with the main topic of this ML, but I find it very interesting. In particular, and more to the topic, I am interested in differences, even early ones, between Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy, of which I have only a rough understanding. Anyway... I find that part of the problem is using the term "deity" without giving the context. A deity in a polytheistic context is _very_ different from a deity in a monotheistic context. Even monotheistic contexts can have very different interpretations of "deity". To a Jew or a Muslim the Trinity can and do appear a polytheistic concept. On the other hand even the atheistic forms of Buddhism do have the concept of deity, similar to that of Mediterranean polytheism. I stated that as far as I know no major branch of Christianity (and I include Jeovah Witnesses and LDS, divergent as they are, in the major branches), present or past, include in their specific mainstream definition of deity Mary the mother of Jesus (or other Mary for what matter). _Do_ exist single theologians that have a different vision. As _do_ exist theologians in the major branches of Christianity that negate the perfection of the Godhead. To me these positions appear somehow connected. And personally, as an atheist, I find these positions very interesting. On philosophical and moral grounds I cannot believe in a perfect God. But I cannot, on the same grounds, negate the possibility of an immensely powerful but not perfect Godhead that is moving toward perfection. Anyway, if we take a definition of "deity" more close to Mediterranean polytheism, especially after the development of Neo-Platonism, one could argue that Mary can be considered a deity. At the cost of considering, in a RC context, all the saints deity, minor to Mary but deity anyway. Interestingly, as far as we know, Gnosticism (strongly Neo-Platonic) never asserted that Mary was a deity. In the Mediterranean polytheism, deities where non perfect nor omnipotent. They could learn from errors. They were immensely more powerful than humans, as humans (according to them) are superior to animals, but in no way omnipotent. There were things, logically possible, that even them couldn't do. And the distinction between gods and humans were in many points blurred. Not only there were demi-gods of mixed origins, but there were humans that for exceptional feats (even morally negative) were conceded a cult similar to a minor deity. I don't remember the name and the place, but it is reported that in Greece an exceptional athlete in an excess or wrath provoked the destruction of a gym, killing himself and many people in the gym. A small temple were built for the athlete, and sacrifices were made to him. In effect Greco-roman cult was more connected with keeping deities out of human affairs than with receiving benefits, The latter was considered magic, practiced a lot but suspected from the institutions. With Neo-Platonism, that developed more or less at the time in which the Jesus movement defined itself, it was defined the concept of a Godhead (the One) perfect but not connected with the World, and various levels of deities. Saint Augustine used part of this system to give a system that is the basis for western Christianity. He specifically refers to "some books by some Platonists" but unfortunately didn't say which ones. If we accept the monotheistic standard definition of a deity as an uncreated perfect entity, the only way to have Mary as a deity is including her in the Trinity. As far as I know no branch of Christianity has done so. Carl Gustav Jung, on psychological grounds, expected and hoped that RC would in the future do so, but it is his opinion. And the concept of a minor deity, perfectly standard in polytheism, would be stretching monotheism beyond its limit. Roman Catholicism however, especially in folk piety, comes very close to defining a second level of divinity, in the form of humans (Saints) that can answer requests from the faithful. In RC folk piety it is very common to ask Mary or other Saints miracles (grazie in Italian, graces, but unconnected with the theological concept of Grace). The official RC doctrine is that in these miracles Mary or the saint is an intermediary between the faithful and the Godhead. But the language is very ambiguous and I would say that the majority of Roman Catholics believe that the miracles are actually performed by May or the Saint. Anyway, the RC canonical procedure of sanctification requires at least a miracle to declare a Saint. In this specific sense we could argue (polemically of course) that many Roman Catholics act in a way very similar to Greco-Roman Pagans and functionally consider Mary and the Saints very similar to a Mediterranean Polytheistic deity. And even that, while the Greco-Roman public cult was more connected with the Pax Deorum (non interference of the deities in human affairs), although magic was widespread, Roman Catholics are practicing unknowingly a kind of magic. This is an extremization of course. RC theology is very accurate in avoiding this pitfall. I am very interested in knowing something on this point in an Orthodox context. If this ambiguity in folk piety exists in the Orthodox context or if it is specific of Roman Catholicism. Regards Luciano Di Cocco > "Deified" means nothing other than "made a god of; raised to the > position of > a god," of course. If your objection to referring to Mary as a deity > is (if > I may summarize how the argument progressed), "no Orthodox Christian, > nor > any other Christian. nor _anyone_ who has looked deeply into the matter > thinks of or would refer to Mary as a deity," then the quotations cited > are > quite to the point. You ignore "quod _est demonstratum_" at your > peril. > > Prof. Dumanis' assertion that "обожествлять" merely means "to admire" > is > much more pertinent. However, is it tenable? See, for instance, the > online version of the Ushakov dictionary, which says: > > ОБОЖЕСТВИ́ТЬ, обожествлю, обожествишь, ·совер. (к обожествлять), кого-что > (·книж. ). Признать имеющим сверхъестественную, божественную силу, > божеством. Древние обожествили силы природы. > > [koi8-r encoding, see > 37283.htm> > if my quotation is scrambled in transmission]. > > Ernie Sjogren ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Sat Sep 11 11:22:57 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 12:22:57 +0100 Subject: Skazka - Zmeya I rybak - a bull's hide Message-ID: Dear all, This is from a Cossack skazka about ingratitude. Have I translated the last words correctly?  --Злом платят за добро люди. Я своему хозяину землю пашу, и всю посею, и воды навожу. Время придет -- хозяин зарежет меня, мясо сварит, шкуру снимет, расстелет и по мне ходить будет. The bull replied, ‘People repay good with evil. I plough my master’s land for him, I sow it and I fetch water for him. But when the time comes, my master will slaughter me, cook my meat, take off my hide, spread it out on the ground and walk on me.’ This give the impression that the bull’s hide will be used to cover a floor, which I find a little surprising. Am just wondering whether it really means that his hide will be stretched and made into shoe leather. All the best, Robert ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK Sat Sep 11 11:58:58 2010 From: Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK (Alexandra Smith) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 12:58:58 +0100 Subject: Skazka - Zmeya I rybak - a bull's hide In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Robert, It's not unusual to make carpets and mats out of bull hide. I've seen some beautiful carpets of this type in New Zealand. It seems that Russian hunters decorate their huts with carpets made out of bull hide. You could read this article: http://www.ohotniki.com/new1/959.htm There is a beautiful carpet for sale from Normandy made out of bull hide: http://www.lavka.kg/catalog/18/24.html It seems that similar carpets are made in other regions. I'm not sure whether your story features any rituals or invokes some ritualistic use of bull hide. There is a rich tradition related to the use of bull hide in rituals. Here is a passage from Chesnov's book on the history of ethnology (http://www.gumer.info/bibliotek_Buks/History/Chesn/19.php): "Сидение на шкуре быка с целью приобретения союзника было известно скифам. Нуждающийся в союзнике приносил в жертву быка, мясо варил, а сам садился на разостланную шкуру, заложив руки за спину. Кто брал мясо и наступал правой ногой на шкуру, обязывался участвовать в военном деле сам и привести своих сторонников. Ступить на шкуру было равносильно присяге. Сидение на шкуре в случае заключения союза, юридической сделки и брака, при клятве спорадически отмечается в Германии, в Италии. Такое сидение для брачного контракта было известно в древности в Индии и в Риме. Роль шкуры (чаще бычьей) мог выполнять ковер. В немецком средневековье практиковался юридический обычай, согласно которому преступника тащили на площадь на коровьей шкуре. Все это «- обряды забвения» старых прав, старого состояния. Брачное сидение невесты или невесты с женихом на шкуре сохранилось вплоть до этнографической современности. У казахов при первом посещении юрты тестя невесту сажали на свежую шкуру барана — «чтобы много рожала как овца». В Дагестане в доме жениха невеста должна сидеть на овечьей шкуре. У имерина на Мадагаскаре для устранения опасности кровосмешения брачующихся мужчины и женщины их заворачивали в шкуру быка. Распространенность подобных обрядов объясняется необходимостью забвения женщиной своего старого состояния. All best, Sasha Smith ----------------------------------------- Alexandra Smith (PhD, University of London) Reader in Russian Studies Department of European Languages and Cultures School of Languages, Literatures and Cultures The University of Edinburgh David Hume Tower George Square Edinburgh EH8 9JX UK tel. +44-(0)131-6511381 fax: +44- (0)131 -651 -1482 e-mail: Alexandra.Smith at ed.ac.uk Quoting Robert Chandler : > Dear all, > > This is from a Cossack skazka about ingratitude. > > Have I translated the last words correctly? > >  --Злом платят за добро люди. Я своему хозяину землю пашу, и всю посею, и > воды > навожу. Время придет -- хозяин зарежет меня, мясо сварит, шкуру снимет, > расстелет и по мне ходить будет. > > The bull replied, ‘People repay good with evil. I plough my master’s land > for him, I sow it and I fetch water for him. But when the time comes, my > master will slaughter me, cook my meat, take off my hide, spread it out on > the ground and walk on me.’ > > This give the impression that the bull’s hide will be used to cover a floor, > which I find a little surprising. > > Am just wondering whether it really means that his hide will be stretched > and made into shoe leather. > > All the best, > > Robert > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From luciano.dicocco at TIN.IT Sat Sep 11 14:21:35 2010 From: luciano.dicocco at TIN.IT (Luciano Di Cocco) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 16:21:35 +0200 Subject: Tsars as healers? In-Reply-To: <20100911125858.or6oi2yc08ok8cs0@www.staffmail.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: This one is connected with the thread about Mary as coredemptrix. It is a personal curiosity, not an academic question. I know that Roman emperors were supposed to be healers and/or performers of miracles. And that in the middle ages and in early modernity kings by divine right were supposed, at least in folk religion, to share the same attribute. I have read that a similar conception lasted in Russia until recent times. Is this true? If so, how long have it lasted? Was Nicholas II supposed, at least in folk piety, to be a healer? If so, did his manifest incapacity to heal his own son have some effect in the popular vision of him? As I've said, this is only a personal curiosity. All best Luciano Di Cocco ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Sat Sep 11 14:26:37 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 15:26:37 +0100 Subject: Tsars as healers? In-Reply-To: <288763785727160573@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: I'm very interested to hear thoughts on this, as I have a particular interest in Nicholas II. Question about Alexei's hemophilia and Alexandra as a carrier for the disease, because it's been a while since I've read Massie's *Nicholas and Alexandra*. Why was there no warning, in the form of Victoria's offspring? I believe at least one developed the disease. Why would Alexandra never have picked up on this possibility before Alexei's birth? Stephanie ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ On 11 September 2010 15:21, Luciano Di Cocco wrote: > This one is connected with the thread about Mary as coredemptrix. It is a > personal curiosity, not an academic question. > I know that Roman emperors were supposed to be healers and/or performers of > miracles. And that in the middle ages and in early modernity kings by divine > right were supposed, at least in folk religion, to share the same attribute. > I have read that a similar conception lasted in Russia until recent times. > Is this true? If so, how long have it lasted? Was Nicholas II supposed, at > least in folk piety, to be a healer? If so, did his manifest incapacity to > heal his own son have some effect in the popular vision of him? > > As I've said, this is only a personal curiosity. > > All best > Luciano Di Cocco > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From perova09 at GMAIL.COM Sat Sep 11 15:37:13 2010 From: perova09 at GMAIL.COM (Perova Natasha) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 19:37:13 +0400 Subject: Skazka - Zmeya I rybak - a bull's hide Message-ID: Dear Robert your translation is absolutely correct. Hides are often used as rugs, especially bears' hides but others as well. I've seen it many times in various parts of the former USSR. Natasha Perova Glas New Russian Writing tel/fax: (7)495-4419157 perova at glas.msk.su www.glas.msk.su ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Chandler" To: Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:22 PM Subject: [SEELANGS] Skazka - Zmeya I rybak - a bull's hide Dear all, This is from a Cossack skazka about ingratitude. Have I translated the last words correctly? --���� ������ �� ����� ����. � ������ ������� ����� ����, � ��� �����, � ���� ������. ����� ������ -- ������ ������� ����, ���� ������, ����� ������, ��������� � �� ��� ������ �����. The bull replied, �People repay good with evil. I plough my master�s land for him, I sow it and I fetch water for him. But when the time comes, my master will slaughter me, cook my meat, take off my hide, spread it out on the ground and walk on me.� This give the impression that the bull�s hide will be used to cover a floor, which I find a little surprising. Am just wondering whether it really means that his hide will be stretched and made into shoe leather. All the best, Robert ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU Sat Sep 11 16:39:49 2010 From: hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU (Hugh McLean) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 09:39:49 -0700 Subject: Skazka - Zmeya I rybak - a bull's hide In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It seems perfect to me, except the word "all" has been omitted before the land sowed. I first had doubts about whether 'slaughter' was of the right stylistic register, thinking that perhaps zarezhet was more anthropomorphic, like 'slit my throat', but some dictionary exploration convinced me that zarezat' is exactly the word for what human beings do to animals. > Dear all, > > This is from a Cossack skazka about ingratitude. > > Have I translated the last words correctly? > > --Злом платят за добро люди. Я своему хозяину землю пашу, и всю посею, и > воды > навожу. Время придет -- хозяин зарежет меня, мясо сварит, шкуру снимет, > расстелет и по мне ходить будет. > > The bull replied, ‘People repay good with evil. I plough my master’s land > for him, I sow it and I fetch water for him. But when the time comes, my > master will slaughter me, cook my meat, take off my hide, spread it out on > the ground and walk on me.’ > > This give the impression that the bull’s hide will be used to cover a floor, > which I find a little surprising. > > Am just wondering whether it really means that his hide will be stretched > and made into shoe leather. > > All the best, > > Robert > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU Sat Sep 11 17:51:31 2010 From: mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU (Melissa Smith) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 13:51:31 -0400 Subject: Coredemptrix Message-ID: Dear Luciano and others: Since you introduce a broader context for the discussion of belief systems, I offer my own excursus on this topic. My historical dating is rather approximate, but there is ample opportunity for fact-checking on the web. I and at least one other Slavist of my acquaintance are members of the Unitarian-Universalist church which extends back at least to Michael Servetus, who wrote a tract on "The Errors of the Trinity," and was burned at the stake for his troubles. The "Bohemian Brethren" and a 16th(?) century King Sigismund were among historical exemplars of this belief. In the Americas, one branch of Unitarianism was introduced by the British Scientist, Joseph Priestly. The northern branch arose as a reaction against "the Great Awakening," an emotional, evangelical movement in the late 18th-early 19th century, against which the more rationally-inclined Protestants offered their own alternative visions of Christianity. Among early proponents of this faith were our second president, John Adams and many of the New England Transcendentalists,such as Ralph Waldo Emerson. Thomas Jefferson, although not professing to be a Unitarian himself, predicted that, by the end of the 19th century, Unitarianism would be the predominant faith of the USA. We should not, of course, be surprised that the "founding fathers'" influence in such matters was more limited than Jefferson supposed, although the Judaeo-Christian tradition that spawned this denomination remains dominant and multifarious. In the 1960's the Unitarians merged with the Universalist denomination. Since neither denomination has a catechism or other form of dogma, only the sketchiest generalizations can be made. Relevant to the current discussion is the general acceptance of Christ as a great religious TEACHER, but not a divinity (hence, "Unitarian" as opposed to "Trinitarian"). I know less about Universalism, but one of its founders, Hosea Ballou reject the notion of Hell altogether and viewed salvation after death as universal. I personally reject the label "atheist," although etymologically "a-theos," would imply the rejection of ANY divine persona, whether it be depicted in a toga and sandals or sporting a long, white beard. From the Universalist perspective, the absence of eternal damnation would seem to obviate a "redeemer," or "coredemptrix." I accept such terminology, however, from a linguistic perspective, and therefore welcome the discussion and justification of usage that is presented on this listserv. I would suggest, moreover, that in these days of proposed Qu'ran burnings, such discussion assumes even greater relevance. The "belief system" of our profession is in continual evolution. Sincerely, Melissa Smith On 9/10/10 11:02 PM, Luciano Di Cocco wrote: > This discussion is obviously only marginally connected with the main topic of this ML, but I find it very interesting. In particular, and more to the topic, I am interested in differences, even early ones, between Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy, of which I have only a rough understanding. > > Anyway... > > I find that part of the problem is using the term "deity" without giving the context. A deity in a polytheistic context is _very_ different from a deity in a monotheistic context. Even monotheistic contexts can have very different interpretations of "deity". To a Jew or a Muslim the Trinity can and do appear a polytheistic concept. On the other hand even the atheistic forms of Buddhism do have the concept of deity, similar to that of Mediterranean polytheism. > > I stated that as far as I know no major branch of Christianity (and I include Jeovah Witnesses and LDS, divergent as they are, in the major branches), present or past, include in their specific mainstream definition of deity Mary the mother of Jesus (or other Mary for what matter). > > _Do_ exist single theologians that have a different vision. As _do_ exist theologians in the major branches of Christianity that negate the perfection of the Godhead. To me these positions appear somehow connected. And personally, as an atheist, I find these positions very interesting. On philosophical and moral grounds I cannot believe in a perfect God. But I cannot, on the same grounds, negate the possibility of an immensely powerful but not perfect Godhead that is moving toward perfection. > > Anyway, if we take a definition of "deity" more close to Mediterranean polytheism, especially after the development of Neo-Platonism, one could argue that Mary can be considered a deity. At the cost of considering, in a RC context, all the saints deity, minor to Mary but deity anyway. Interestingly, as far as we know, Gnosticism (strongly Neo-Platonic) never asserted that Mary was a deity. > > In the Mediterranean polytheism, deities where non perfect nor omnipotent. They could learn from errors. They were immensely more powerful than humans, as humans (according to them) are superior to animals, but in no way omnipotent. There were things, logically possible, that even them couldn't do. > > And the distinction between gods and humans were in many points blurred. Not only there were demi-gods of mixed origins, but there were humans that for exceptional feats (even morally negative) were conceded a cult similar to a minor deity. I don't remember the name and the place, but it is reported that in Greece an exceptional athlete in an excess or wrath provoked the destruction of a gym, killing himself and many people in the gym. A small temple were built for the athlete, and sacrifices were made to him. In effect Greco-roman cult was more connected with keeping deities out of human affairs than with receiving benefits, The latter was considered magic, practiced a lot but suspected from the institutions. > > With Neo-Platonism, that developed more or less at the time in which the Jesus movement defined itself, it was defined the concept of a Godhead (the One) perfect but not connected with the World, and various levels of deities. > > Saint Augustine used part of this system to give a system that is the basis for western Christianity. He specifically refers to "some books by some Platonists" but unfortunately didn't say which ones. > > If we accept the monotheistic standard definition of a deity as an uncreated perfect entity, the only way to have Mary as a deity is including her in the Trinity. As far as I know no branch of Christianity has done so. Carl Gustav Jung, on psychological grounds, expected and hoped that RC would in the future do so, but it is his opinion. > And the concept of a minor deity, perfectly standard in polytheism, would be stretching monotheism beyond its limit. > > Roman Catholicism however, especially in folk piety, comes very close to defining a second level of divinity, in the form of humans (Saints) that can answer requests from the faithful. In RC folk piety it is very common to ask Mary or other Saints miracles (grazie in Italian, graces, but unconnected with the theological concept of Grace). The official RC doctrine is that in these miracles Mary or the saint is an intermediary between the faithful and the Godhead. But the language is very ambiguous and I would say that the majority of Roman Catholics believe that the miracles are actually performed by May or the Saint. Anyway, the RC canonical procedure of sanctification requires at least a miracle to declare a Saint. > > In this specific sense we could argue (polemically of course) that many Roman Catholics act in a way very similar to Greco-Roman Pagans and functionally consider Mary and the Saints very similar to a Mediterranean Polytheistic deity. And even that, while the Greco-Roman public cult was more connected with the Pax Deorum (non interference of the deities in human affairs), although magic was widespread, Roman Catholics are practicing unknowingly a kind of magic. > > This is an extremization of course. RC theology is very accurate in avoiding this pitfall. > > I am very interested in knowing something on this point in an Orthodox context. If this ambiguity in folk piety exists in the Orthodox context or if it is specific of Roman Catholicism. > > Regards > Luciano Di Cocco > > > "Deified" means nothing other than "made a god of; raised to the > > position of > > a god," of course. If your objection to referring to Mary as a deity > > is (if > > I may summarize how the argument progressed), "no Orthodox Christian, > > nor > > any other Christian. nor _anyone_ who has looked deeply into the matter > > thinks of or would refer to Mary as a deity," then the quotations cited > > are > > quite to the point. You ignore "quod _est demonstratum_" at your > > peril. > > > > Prof. Dumanis' assertion that "обожествлять" merely means "to admire" > > is > > much more pertinent. However, is it tenable? See, for instance, the > > online version of the Ushakov dictionary, which says: > > > > ОБОЖЕСТВИ́ТЬ, обожествлю, обожествишь, ·совер. (к обожествлять), кого-что > > (·книж. ). Признать имеющим сверхъестественную, божественную силу, > > божеством. Древние обожествили силы природы. > > > > [koi8-r encoding, see > > > 37283.htm> > > if my quotation is scrambled in transmission]. > > > > Ernie Sjogren > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------ Melissa T. Smith, Professor Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures Youngstown State University Youngstown, OH 44555 Tel: (330)941-3462 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Sat Sep 11 19:22:09 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 20:22:09 +0100 Subject: Thanks - and another skazka question In-Reply-To: <20100911125858.or6oi2yc08ok8cs0@www.staffmail.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: Many thanks, Sasha, Natasha, and Hugh, for answers about the bull hide. I have another question. A girl has married a bear. She is asking the bear to take a basket of pancakes to her parents' home. (She is, in fact, doing this to smuggle her sister, the bear's previous wife, out of the house of this murderous Bluebeard-like bear). She has told the bear that the pancakes are in order to "pomyanut' mamu". Then she says to the bear, 'Ну неси. Подай милостыню. Вот она (т.е. корзинка) полная. Да смотри: не ешь. Мy question is about the words Подай милостыню. Is she telling the bear to give alms to any beggar he happens to meet (unlikely since they are deep in the forest). Or is it that the pancakes are themselves a form of milostynya that she is giving to her family back home? The latter reading, if possible, seems to make much better sense. Robert ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From luciano.dicocco at TIN.IT Sat Sep 11 19:30:59 2010 From: luciano.dicocco at TIN.IT (Luciano Di Cocco) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 21:30:59 +0200 Subject: R: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: <25071332.1284227492003.JavaMail.mtsmith02@ysu.edu> Message-ID: As I've already said, this discussion is somehow off topic and I wouldn't object if the moderator would invite us to go on off topics. But as some SEELANGer have found this interesting and some may even find it useful in defining the meaning of "redemptor", I go on. Dear Melissa and others: I am very interested in knowing of belief systems, inside or outside the main branches of Christianity. Personally I am a Roman Catholic atheist, in the sense that I'm personally an atheist, but my background, like the majority of Italians, is Catholic. In my home town (Livorno) we have also a significant number of Jews and Waldensians, but very few on US standards (circa 4% Jews and 1% Waldensians). I have also Orthodox ancestors but they are very far in time. On the concept of Redemption. I am not an expert of theology in any sense, but I find that many Christians tend to coalesce the concepts of atonement and redemption. They are indeed strongly connected in mainstream Christianity, but in a wider sense there can be redemption without atonement. Redemption (and its equivalents in Greek and Hebrew kopher and lytron) is etymologically connected with "ransom", strongly connected with atonement. But the Catholic (and I suppose other denominations) definition is "The restoration of man from the bondage of sin to the liberty [of the children of God through the satisfactions and merits of Christ]". I have bracketed the parts that are specifically Christian. If we say "The restoration of sentient beings from the bondage of ignorance to the liberty" the majority of Buddhists would say that this is exactly the objective of the Buddha Dharma. And the concept of redemption in this meaning is not necessarily connected with an eternal damnation. On a personal note I (and many others) find a God who permits eternal damnation not worthy of praise. Anyway the concept of redemption, although not etymologically connected to the Christian one, is part of the majority of Buddhist doctrines, that teach that eventually (billions of years) every sentient being will reach the state of buddhahood. A condition superior to that of the creator God. In their conception even Lord Brahma, in the Indian theology the creator of the universe, is subject to ignorance and decay, although immensely less than humans. And even Lord Brahma will be saved by the Buddha Dharma by a Buddha, a condition that every sentient being will eventually attain. By a process that can be defined as "The restoration of sentient beings from the bondage of ignorance to the liberty", a definition very close to the mainstream Christian definition. Although the means are very different. This is not an apology of Buddhism (I'm not a Buddhist). It's to say that while the concept of atonement is specifically Christian (possibly Judeo-Christian), the concept of redemption (not etymologically) is more widespread in belief systems. Sincerely, Luciano Di Cocco > -----Messaggio originale----- > Da: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list > [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] Per conto di Melissa Smith > Inviato: sabato 11 settembre 2010 19:52 > A: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Oggetto: Re: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix > > Dear Luciano and others: > > Since you introduce a broader context for the discussion of belief > systems, I offer my own excursus on this topic. My historical dating is > rather approximate, but there is ample opportunity for fact-checking on > the web. > > I and at least one other Slavist of my acquaintance are members of the > Unitarian-Universalist church which extends back at least to Michael > Servetus, who wrote a tract on "The Errors of the Trinity," and was > burned at the stake for his troubles. The "Bohemian Brethren" and a > 16th(?) century King Sigismund were among historical exemplars of this > belief. > > In the Americas, one branch of Unitarianism was introduced by the > British Scientist, Joseph Priestly. The northern branch arose as a > reaction against "the Great Awakening," an emotional, evangelical > movement in the late 18th-early 19th century, against which the more > rationally-inclined Protestants offered their own alternative visions > of Christianity. Among early proponents of this faith were our second > president, John Adams and many of the New England > Transcendentalists,such as Ralph Waldo Emerson. Thomas Jefferson, > although not professing to be a Unitarian himself, predicted that, by > the end of the 19th century, Unitarianism would be the predominant > faith of the USA. > > We should not, of course, be surprised that the "founding fathers'" > influence in such matters was more limited than Jefferson supposed, > although the Judaeo-Christian tradition that spawned this denomination > remains dominant and multifarious. In the 1960's the Unitarians merged > with the Universalist denomination. > > Since neither denomination has a catechism or other form of dogma, only > the sketchiest generalizations can be made. Relevant to the current > discussion is the general acceptance of Christ as a great religious > TEACHER, but not a divinity (hence, "Unitarian" as opposed to > "Trinitarian"). I know less about Universalism, but one of its > founders, Hosea Ballou reject the notion of Hell altogether and viewed > salvation after death as universal. > > I personally reject the label "atheist," although etymologically > "a-theos," would imply the rejection of ANY divine persona, whether it > be depicted in a toga and sandals or sporting a long, white beard. From > the Universalist perspective, the absence of eternal damnation would > seem to obviate a "redeemer," or "coredemptrix." I accept such > terminology, however, from a linguistic perspective, and therefore > welcome the discussion and justification of usage that is presented on > this listserv. I would suggest, moreover, that in these days of > proposed Qu'ran burnings, such discussion assumes even greater > relevance. The "belief system" of our profession is in continual > evolution. > > Sincerely, > > Melissa Smith ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From luciano.dicocco at TIN.IT Sat Sep 11 20:59:17 2010 From: luciano.dicocco at TIN.IT (Luciano Di Cocco) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 22:59:17 +0200 Subject: R: [SEELANGS] Tsars as healers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I'm very interested to hear thoughts on this, as I have a particular > interest in Nicholas II. Unfortunately I know nothing about tsars as healers. It was one of my questions. I have found a couple of web references on the background that some may find interesting. On Roman Emperors as healer there is a reference in this article: http://craigaevans.com/Priene%20art.pdf <> By the way, all the article can be of great interest for those interested in the relationship between early Christianity and Roman Emperor Cult. Here http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1067&context=histo ryfacpub there is an article specifically on the (supposed) healing powers of Queen Elisabeth I, and in general this context in England. Here http://www.grijalvo.com/Hfz000/hfz000_2002_J_D_Cofield_Hands_of_a_King.htm , in the context of sources for Tolkien, there is some infos on the tradition of kings imposing hands to the subjects, lasting until 1712 or 1730 in England, and as late as the Revolution in France. I have found no reference on survival of this belief in Russia. But a friend of mine remembers an Italian documentary (I don't know how accurate) asserting that miraculous healings were attributed to Stalin. Somebody can confirm this? If true, was it something new or something referring to older traditions? Luciano Di Cocco ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Sat Sep 11 21:09:01 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 22:09:01 +0100 Subject: R: [SEELANGS] Tsars as healers? In-Reply-To: <3966951631316931106@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Hm, Caligula ("Little Boots") doesn't strike me as an altruistic healing type of guy... ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ On 11 September 2010 21:59, Luciano Di Cocco wrote: > > I'm very interested to hear thoughts on this, as I have a particular > > interest in Nicholas II. > > Unfortunately I know nothing about tsars as healers. It was one of my > questions. I have found a couple of web references on the background that > some may find interesting. > > On Roman Emperors as healer there is a reference in this article: > http://craigaevans.com/Priene%20art.pdf > > < emperors could in some instances effect healing. According to Suetonius: "A > man of the people, who was blind, and another who was lame, together came > to [Vespasian] as he sat on the tribunal, begging for the help for their > disorders which Serapis had promised in a dream; for the god declared that > Vespasian would restore the eyes, if he would spit upon them, and give > strength to the leg, if he would deign to touch with his heel. Though he > had > hardly any faith that this could possibly succeed, and therefore shrank > even > from making the attempt, he was at last prevailed upon by his friends and > tried both things in public before a large crowd; and with success" (Divus > Vespasianus 7.2-3).>> > By the way, all the article can be of great interest for those interested > in > the relationship between early Christianity and Roman Emperor Cult. > > Here > > http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1067&context=histo > ryfacpub > there is an article specifically on the (supposed) healing powers of Queen > Elisabeth I, and in general this context in England. > Here > http://www.grijalvo.com/Hfz000/hfz000_2002_J_D_Cofield_Hands_of_a_King.htm > , in the context of sources for Tolkien, there is some infos on the > tradition of kings imposing hands to the subjects, lasting until 1712 or > 1730 in England, and as late as the Revolution in France. > I have found no reference on survival of this belief in Russia. But a > friend > of mine remembers an Italian documentary (I don't know how accurate) > asserting that miraculous healings were attributed to Stalin. Somebody can > confirm this? If true, was it something new or something referring to older > traditions? > > Luciano Di Cocco > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From lave0093 at UMN.EDU Sat Sep 11 21:26:13 2010 From: lave0093 at UMN.EDU (Susan LaVelle) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 16:26:13 -0500 Subject: Religion, et al Message-ID: Hello: I don't know if I am speaking for myself alone, but I think that I would prefer it if the topics were a little more tethered to the SEELANGS mission...maybe there is a SEEKLANGS list, but I don't believe that this is it. Certainly, some of the discussion fits, but in my opinion, some of it doesn't. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Sat Sep 11 23:24:43 2010 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 00:24:43 +0100 Subject: Thanks - and another skazka question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Robert, Bliny are a traditional part of the funeral feast, and a funeral feast for family and friends is considered to be charitable giving; giving Shrovetide pancakes is also милостыню давать. The remains of the funeral feast are supposed to be given to the poor and needy. Without knowing the whole context, the bliny seem to be for her mother's funeral feast, so I would guess that your second reading makes better sense, though how to convey all this in your translation for an audience unaware of Russian customs is problematic. Roughly perhaps: " Here, take it. Give it for the wake. Here's the basket - it's full. But mind you don't eat any." Emphasizing the fullness of the basket, the religious/charitable nature of the contents, and the warning not to eat, would all fit the need to conceal the sister (large basket, small sister presumably - quite possible in a folk tale). Native speakers please correct if I am wrong. Bliny are generally a symbol of death in dreams and podbliudnye pesni. Will On 11/09/2010 20:22, Robert Chandler wrote: > Many thanks, Sasha, Natasha, and Hugh, for answers about the bull hide. > > I have another question. A girl has married a bear. She is asking the bear > to take a basket of pancakes to her parents' home. (She is, in fact, doing > this to smuggle her sister, the bear's previous wife, out of the house of > this murderous Bluebeard-like bear). She has told the bear that the > pancakes are in order to "pomyanut' mamu". > > Then she says to the bear, 'Ну неси. Подай милостыню. Вот она (т.е. > корзинка) полная. Да смотри: не ешь. > > Мy question is about the words Подай милостыню. Is she telling the bear to > give alms to any beggar he happens to meet (unlikely since they are deep in > the forest). Or is it that the pancakes are themselves a form of milostynya > that she is giving to her family back home? > > The latter reading, if possible, seems to make much better sense. > > Robert > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Sun Sep 12 01:08:11 2010 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 02:08:11 +0100 Subject: color orange In-Reply-To: <2BFAED30-41D2-48A1-9E03-CD272FF93DEF@american.edu> Message-ID: This rather surreal set of possible word combinations certainly pushes up the potential word count for "oranzhevyi" (though the absence of fruit in the list certainly reinforces my memory of the 1960s), but I was thinking in more historical terms, i.e. if "oranzhevyi" is not attested in Russian before the 1860's (says Chernykh's etymological dictionary), what word did Russians use for this colour before? I can now partly answer my own question - chapter four of the admirable work by N.B. Bakhalina, Istoriia tsvetooboznacheniia v russkom iazyke, Moscow, 1975, is devoted entirely to words for the colour orange shows that the word is indeed used in the colour sense only from the later 19th century. Before that "oranzhevyi" existed only in the botanical sense - "oranzhevoe derevo". Bakhalina, who covers Old Russian and Modern Russian in her book, with a wealth of examples, discusses words from the angle of both colour perception and language history. She concludes that the commonest word for orange before "oranzhevyi" was "rudozheltyi", which was new to me, but that several other words such as "zharkoi" and "ognennyi" were also used (which is good to know since it would be easy to mistranslate them). An internet search revealed that Kantemir in the earlier 18th c. in his Ode in Praise of Science translated the orange of Newton's spectrum as "rudozheltyi". However, a search for "rudozheltyi" gave almost no results for 19th century literature, so if writers before the 1860s were not using either oranzhevyi or rudozheltyi, what were they using? Or is the searchable database not yet big enough to do a meaningful search? Will On 10/09/2010 21:57, Alina Israeli wrote: > Sep 8, 2010, в 6:12 AM, William Ryan написал(а): > >> >> >> In the Russian context, as a student in Leningrad in the early >> sixties I never saw an orange or any other citrus fruit. I do in fact >> wonder if the word "oranzhevyi" is as common in Russian as "orange" >> (as a colour word) is in English. > > > About at the same time you were in Leningrad, Arkanov and Gorin wrote > this song > > Оранжевая песня > > (Написана вместе с Гр. Гориным в 1964 г.) > > Вот уже подряд два дня > Я сижу — рисую. > Красок много у меня — > Выбирай любую. > Я раскрашу целый свет > В самый свой любимый цвет. > > Оранжевое небо, > Оранжевое море, > Оранжевая зелень, > Оранжевый верблюд. > Оранжевые мамы > Оранжевым ребятам > Оранжевые песни > Оранжево поют. > http://ironicpoetry.ru/autors/arkanov-arkadiy/oranzhevaya-pesnya.html > > Music by Pevzner. > > Listen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqwJvPSiL_I > > It was wildly popular those days. And still is. > > > > Alina Israeli > Associate Professor of Russian > LFS, American University > 4400 Massachusetts Ave. > Washington DC 20016 > (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 > aisrael at american.edu > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Sun Sep 12 02:14:51 2010 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 22:14:51 -0400 Subject: color orange In-Reply-To: <4C8C27FB.4050306@sas.ac.uk> Message-ID: Sep 11, 2010, в 9:08 PM, William Ryan написал(а): > This rather surreal set of possible word combinations certainly > pushes up the potential word count for "oranzhevyi" (though the > absence of fruit in the list certainly reinforces my memory of the > 1960s), Well, I lived in Leningrad in the 60's, all of them, every single year of the decade (not so for the 50's or 70's). Oranges were sporadic, but certainly they were there from time to time. How can remember it so vividly? I had allergy to oranges, I would break into hives. Fortunately, my food allergies got cured in 1968 and I have been drinking orange juice every day since I am in the US. Tangerines — mandariny — were sine qua non for a New Year tree/party; they were either hanging on the tree or served at children's parties (oranges weren't). But I remember oranges served during dinner in the winter camp on lake Ladoga circa 1966 (end of December — early January). Again, I remember it not because it was so unusual, but because of the strange conversation that surrounded it. > > I can now partly answer my own question - chapter four of the > admirable work by N.B. Bakhalina, Istoriia tsvetooboznacheniia v > russkom iazyke, Moscow, 1975, is devoted entirely to words for the > colour orange shows that the word is indeed used in the colour sense > only from the later 19th century. Before that "oranzhevyi" existed > only in the botanical sense - "oranzhevoe derevo". What was missing in this history is fleur d'orange as part of the wedding dress: Волосы украшали венком с длинной белой фатой. Обычай носить свадебный венок из цветов стар, как мир, но в официальную моду был введен во Франции лишь в XIX веке. Венок назывался флердоранж, потому что делали его из цветов померанцевого дерева. (http://www.fleurdorange.com.ua/index.php?p=446 ) Alina Israeli Associate Professor of Russian LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave. Washington DC 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Sun Sep 12 03:39:11 2010 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 23:39:11 -0400 Subject: color orange In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sep 11, 2010, в 10:14 PM, Alina Israeli написал(а): > Sep 11, 2010, в 9:08 PM, William Ryan написал(а): > >> This rather surreal set of possible word combinations certainly >> pushes up the potential word count for "oranzhevyi" (though the >> absence of fruit in the list certainly reinforces my memory of the >> 1960s), > > Well, I lived in Leningrad in the 60's, all of them, every single > year of the decade (not so for the 50's or 70's). Oranges were > sporadic, but certainly they were there from time to time. How can > remember it so vividly? I had allergy to oranges, I would break into > hives. Fortunately, my food allergies got cured in 1968 and I have > been drinking orange juice every day since I am in the US. > I also remeber the price of oranges, since prices for the most part did not change in those days: 1 rouble 40 kopecks per kilo. Alina Israeli Associate Professor of Russian LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave. Washington DC 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Sun Sep 12 10:11:32 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 11:11:32 +0100 Subject: Religion, et al In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What would the K in SEEKLANGS stand for? ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ On 11 September 2010 22:26, Susan LaVelle wrote: > Hello: I don't know if I am speaking for myself alone, but I think that I > would prefer it if the topics were a little more tethered to the SEELANGS > mission...maybe there is a SEEKLANGS list, but I don't believe that this is > it. Certainly, some of the discussion fits, but in my opinion, some of it > doesn't. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rolf.fieguth at UNIFR.CH Sun Sep 12 10:13:57 2010 From: rolf.fieguth at UNIFR.CH (FIEGUTH Rolf) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 12:13:57 +0200 Subject: AW: [SEELANGS] color orange In-Reply-To: <4C8C27FB.4050306@sas.ac.uk> Message-ID: Dear William, what does Bakhalina say about "apelsinnyj tsvet" in the sense of colour? I found it in Ilf and Petrov's 12 stul'ev. Best wishes, Rolf Fieguth ________________________________________ Von: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] im Auftrag von William Ryan [wfr at SAS.AC.UK] Gesendet: Sonntag, 12. September 2010 03:08 An: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Betreff: Re: [SEELANGS] color orange This rather surreal set of possible word combinations certainly pushes up the potential word count for "oranzhevyi" (though the absence of fruit in the list certainly reinforces my memory of the 1960s), but I was thinking in more historical terms, i.e. if "oranzhevyi" is not attested in Russian before the 1860's (says Chernykh's etymological dictionary), what word did Russians use for this colour before? I can now partly answer my own question - chapter four of the admirable work by N.B. Bakhalina, Istoriia tsvetooboznacheniia v russkom iazyke, Moscow, 1975, is devoted entirely to words for the colour orange shows that the word is indeed used in the colour sense only from the later 19th century. Before that "oranzhevyi" existed only in the botanical sense - "oranzhevoe derevo". Bakhalina, who covers Old Russian and Modern Russian in her book, with a wealth of examples, discusses words from the angle of both colour perception and language history. She concludes that the commonest word for orange before "oranzhevyi" was "rudozheltyi", which was new to me, but that several other words such as "zharkoi" and "ognennyi" were also used (which is good to know since it would be easy to mistranslate them). An internet search revealed that Kantemir in the earlier 18th c. in his Ode in Praise of Science translated the orange of Newton's spectrum as "rudozheltyi". However, a search for "rudozheltyi" gave almost no results for 19th century literature, so if writers before the 1860s were not using either oranzhevyi or rudozheltyi, what were they using? Or is the searchable database not yet big enough to do a meaningful search? Will On 10/09/2010 21:57, Alina Israeli wrote: > Sep 8, 2010, в 6:12 AM, William Ryan написал(а): > >> >> >> In the Russian context, as a student in Leningrad in the early >> sixties I never saw an orange or any other citrus fruit. I do in fact >> wonder if the word "oranzhevyi" is as common in Russian as "orange" >> (as a colour word) is in English. > > > About at the same time you were in Leningrad, Arkanov and Gorin wrote > this song > > Оранжевая песня > > (Написана вместе с Гр. Гориным в 1964 г.) > > Вот уже подряд два дня > Я сижу — рисую. > Красок много у меня — > Выбирай любую. > Я раскрашу целый свет > В самый свой любимый цвет. > > Оранжевое небо, > Оранжевое море, > Оранжевая зелень, > Оранжевый верблюд. > Оранжевые мамы > Оранжевым ребятам > Оранжевые песни > Оранжево поют. > http://ironicpoetry.ru/autors/arkanov-arkadiy/oranzhevaya-pesnya.html > > Music by Pevzner. > > Listen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqwJvPSiL_I > > It was wildly popular those days. And still is. > > > > Alina Israeli > Associate Professor of Russian > LFS, American University > 4400 Massachusetts Ave. > Washington DC 20016 > (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 > aisrael at american.edu > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Sun Sep 12 12:53:00 2010 From: j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 13:53:00 +0100 Subject: colour orange Message-ID: Perhaps the Golden Age is so-called because the writers of that period did not feel the need to refer to anything that was orange-coloured. More seriously, if they did, an adjective they might have used is померанцевый [pomerancevyj], defined in Dal' [III, col. 700] as: ранжевый [sic], рудожолтый, жаркой [ranzhevyj, rudozholtyj, zharkoj]. It did occur to me that the absence of an etymological link between апельсин [apel'sin] and оранжевый [oranzhevyj] means that there is no necessary reason to define the colour in terms of the fruit, but, in fact, Dal', Ushakov and the 17-volume Dictionary all include the phrase цвета апельсина [cveta apel'sina] in their definition of оранжевый. John Dunn. _________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of William Ryan [wfr at SAS.AC.UK] Sent: 12 September 2010 03:08 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] color orange This rather surreal set of possible word combinations certainly pushes up the potential word count for "oranzhevyi" (though the absence of fruit in the list certainly reinforces my memory of the 1960s), but I was thinking in more historical terms, i.e. if "oranzhevyi" is not attested in Russian before the 1860's (says Chernykh's etymological dictionary), what word did Russians use for this colour before? I can now partly answer my own question - chapter four of the admirable work by N.B. Bakhalina, Istoriia tsvetooboznacheniia v russkom iazyke, Moscow, 1975, is devoted entirely to words for the colour orange shows that the word is indeed used in the colour sense only from the later 19th century. Before that "oranzhevyi" existed only in the botanical sense - "oranzhevoe derevo". Bakhalina, who covers Old Russian and Modern Russian in her book, with a wealth of examples, discusses words from the angle of both colour perception and language history. She concludes that the commonest word for orange before "oranzhevyi" was "rudozheltyi", which was new to me, but that several other words such as "zharkoi" and "ognennyi" were also used (which is good to know since it would be easy to mistranslate them). An internet search revealed that Kantemir in the earlier 18th c. in his Ode in Praise of Science translated the orange of Newton's spectrum as "rudozheltyi". However, a search for "rudozheltyi" gave almost no results for 19th century literature, so if writers before the 1860s were not using either oranzhevyi or rudozheltyi, what were they using? Or is the searchable database not yet big enough to do a meaningful search? Will ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fjm6 at COLUMBIA.EDU Sun Sep 12 15:10:28 2010 From: fjm6 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Frank J Miller) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 11:10:28 -0400 Subject: colour orange In-Reply-To: <9B55785EA179DA42AAA6EA7F7DC9DB90A99E930A7C@CMS01.campus.gla.ac.uk> Message-ID: Сee http://ruscorpora.ru/index.html for early examples of the use of оранжевый А. Н. Радищев. Описание моего владения (1800-1801) [омонимия не снята] Все примеры (1) Чернозем лежит очень толстым слоем, и когда глубже аршина, под ним глина, а чаще охра желтая, оранжевая, местом опока или мергель песчаной, песок, еще ниже к водяному горизонту слои разной толщины глины, содержащей в себе купорос; там, кажется, и несколько травяных кореньев. [А. Н. Радищев. Описание моего владения (1800-1801)] [омонимия не снята] ←…→ > > И. А. Гончаров. Фрегат «Паллада» (1855) > [омонимия не снята] Все примеры (1) > Многие предпочитали ананасам мангу: > он фигурой похож на крупную желтую > сливу, только с толстой кожей и с > большой косточкой внутри; мясо > состоит из волокон оранжевого цвета, > напитанных вкусным соком. [И. А. > Гончаров. Фрегат «Паллада» (1855)] > [омонимия не снята] ←…→ > С. Т. Аксаков. Записки ружейного > охотника Оренбургской губернии (1852) > [омонимия не снята] Все примеры (1) > Она была несколько больше самой > крупной дворовой утки; перья имела > светло-коричневого цвета, > испещренные мелкими темными > крапинками; глаза и лапки красные, как > киноварь, а верхнюю половинку носа ― > окаймленную такого же красного цвета > узенькою полоскою; по правильным > перьям поперек крыльев лежала > голубовато-сизая полоса; пух был у ней > розовый, как у дрофы и стрепета, а жир > и кожа оранжевого цвета; вкус ее мяса > был превосходный , отличавшийся от > обыкновенного утиного мяса; хвост > длинный и острый, как у селезня > шилохвости, но сама она была утка, а не > селезень. [С. Т. Аксаков. Записки > ружейного охотника Оренбургской > губернии (1852)] [омонимия не снята] ←…→ > Н. В. Гоголь. Мертвые души (1842) > [омонимия не снята] Все примеры (1) > Поутру, ранее даже того времени, > которое назначено в городе N. для > визитов, из дверей оранжевого > деревянного дома с мезонином и > голубыми колоннами выпорхнула дама в > клетчатом щегольском клоке, > сопровождаемая лакеем в шинели с > несколькими воротниками и золотым > галуном на круглой лощеной шляпе. [Н. > В. Гоголь. Мертвые души (1842)] [омонимия > не снята] ←…→ > О. М. Сомов. Сватовство (1831) [омонимия > не снята] Все примеры (2) > Матушка ссудила меня шелковым > платком оранжевого цвета, с волнисто- > радужными коймами и серебряными > цветами по углам; я повязал этот > платок на шею, распустя длинные концы > его так, что волнисто-радужные коймы и > серебряные цветы приходились у меня > на самой груди. [О. М. Сомов. Сватовство > (1831)] [омонимия не снята] ←…→ > Уже я не решился надеть ни красного > жилета, ни оранжевого платка на шею: > за исключением бессменного моего > долгополого сюртука, я старался > нарядиться сколько можно ближе к > тому, как одеты были городские панычи > на свадьбе. [О. М. Сомов. Сватовство > (1831)] [омонимия не снята] ←…→ > Н. Т. Муравьев. Письма русского из Персии (1844) [омонимия не снята] Все примеры (1) Принц был одет роскошно: на нем был светло-оранжевый низам, подпоясанный золотым широким кушаком, застегнутым огромною бриллиантовою пряжкою чрезвычайной красоты! [Н. Т. Муравьев. Письма русского из Персии (1844)] [омонимия не снята] ←…→ А. А. Бестужев-Марлинский. Он был убит (1835-1836) [омонимия не снята] Все примеры (1) Замечательно, что листья осенью переходят по всем цветам радуги ― из зеленого в голубоватый, потом в желтый, в оранжевый, в красный, и облетают. [А. А. Бестужев-Марлинский. Он был убит (1835-1836)] [омонимия не снята] ←…→ О. М. Сомов. Сватовство (1831) [омонимия не снята] Все примеры (1) Красный цвет и оранжевый, радужные коймы и серебро платка, золото пуговиц ― все это составляло чудную, изящную пестроту и спорило между собою о первенстве на одобрение вкуса самого разборчивого. [О. М. Сомов. Сватовство (1831)] [омонимия не снята] ←…→ Frank J. Miller Professor of Slavic Languages Russian Language Coordinator Department of Slavic Languages Columbia University New York, NY 10027 Phone: 212-854-8155 Fax: 212-854-5009 From rolf.fieguth at UNIFR.CH Sun Sep 12 15:55:06 2010 From: rolf.fieguth at UNIFR.CH (FIEGUTH Rolf) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 17:55:06 +0200 Subject: AW: [SEELANGS] colour orange In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for this excellent tip. Rolf Fieguth ________________________________________ Von: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] im Auftrag von Frank J Miller [fjm6 at COLUMBIA.EDU] Gesendet: Sonntag, 12. September 2010 17:10 An: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Betreff: Re: [SEELANGS] colour orange Сee http://ruscorpora.ru/index.html for early examples of the use of оранжевый А. Н. Радищев. Описание моего владения (1800-1801) [омонимия не снята] Все примеры (1) Чернозем лежит очень толстым слоем, и когда глубже аршина, под ним глина, а чаще охра желтая, оранжевая, местом опока или мергель песчаной, песок, еще ниже к водяному горизонту слои разной толщины глины, содержащей в себе купорос; там, кажется, и несколько травяных кореньев. [А. Н. Радищев. Описание моего владения (1800-1801)] [омонимия не снята] ←…→ > > И. А. Гончаров. Фрегат «Паллада» (1855) > [омонимия не снята] Все примеры (1) > Многие предпочитали ананасам мангу: > он фигурой похож на крупную желтую > сливу, только с толстой кожей и с > большой косточкой внутри; мясо > состоит из волокон оранжевого цвета, > напитанных вкусным соком. [И. А. > Гончаров. Фрегат «Паллада» (1855)] > [омонимия не снята] ←…→ > С. Т. Аксаков. Записки ружейного > охотника Оренбургской губернии (1852) > [омонимия не снята] Все примеры (1) > Она была несколько больше самой > крупной дворовой утки; перья имела > светло-коричневого цвета, > испещренные мелкими темными > крапинками; глаза и лапки красные, как > киноварь, а верхнюю половинку носа ― > окаймленную такого же красного цвета > узенькою полоскою; по правильным > перьям поперек крыльев лежала > голубовато-сизая полоса; пух был у ней > розовый, как у дрофы и стрепета, а жир > и кожа оранжевого цвета; вкус ее мяса > был превосходный , отличавшийся от > обыкновенного утиного мяса; хвост > длинный и острый, как у селезня > шилохвости, но сама она была утка, а не > селезень. [С. Т. Аксаков. Записки > ружейного охотника Оренбургской > губернии (1852)] [омонимия не снята] ←…→ > Н. В. Гоголь. Мертвые души (1842) > [омонимия не снята] Все примеры (1) > Поутру, ранее даже того времени, > которое назначено в городе N. для > визитов, из дверей оранжевого > деревянного дома с мезонином и > голубыми колоннами выпорхнула дама в > клетчатом щегольском клоке, > сопровождаемая лакеем в шинели с > несколькими воротниками и золотым > галуном на круглой лощеной шляпе. [Н. > В. Гоголь. Мертвые души (1842)] [омонимия > не снята] ←…→ > О. М. Сомов. Сватовство (1831) [омонимия > не снята] Все примеры (2) > Матушка ссудила меня шелковым > платком оранжевого цвета, с волнисто- > радужными коймами и серебряными > цветами по углам; я повязал этот > платок на шею, распустя длинные концы > его так, что волнисто-радужные коймы и > серебряные цветы приходились у меня > на самой груди. [О. М. Сомов. Сватовство > (1831)] [омонимия не снята] ←…→ > Уже я не решился надеть ни красного > жилета, ни оранжевого платка на шею: > за исключением бессменного моего > долгополого сюртука, я старался > нарядиться сколько можно ближе к > тому, как одеты были городские панычи > на свадьбе. [О. М. Сомов. Сватовство > (1831)] [омонимия не снята] ←…→ > Н. Т. Муравьев. Письма русского из Персии (1844) [омонимия не снята] Все примеры (1) Принц был одет роскошно: на нем был светло-оранжевый низам, подпоясанный золотым широким кушаком, застегнутым огромною бриллиантовою пряжкою чрезвычайной красоты! [Н. Т. Муравьев. Письма русского из Персии (1844)] [омонимия не снята] ←…→ А. А. Бестужев-Марлинский. Он был убит (1835-1836) [омонимия не снята] Все примеры (1) Замечательно, что листья осенью переходят по всем цветам радуги ― из зеленого в голубоватый, потом в желтый, в оранжевый, в красный, и облетают. [А. А. Бестужев-Марлинский. Он был убит (1835-1836)] [омонимия не снята] ←…→ О. М. Сомов. Сватовство (1831) [омонимия не снята] Все примеры (1) Красный цвет и оранжевый, радужные коймы и серебро платка, золото пуговиц ― все это составляло чудную, изящную пестроту и спорило между собою о первенстве на одобрение вкуса самого разборчивого. [О. М. Сомов. Сватовство (1831)] [омонимия не снята] ←…→ Frank J. Miller Professor of Slavic Languages Russian Language Coordinator Department of Slavic Languages Columbia University New York, NY 10027 Phone: 212-854-8155 Fax: 212-854-5009 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rrobin at GWU.EDU Sun Sep 12 16:14:59 2010 From: rrobin at GWU.EDU (Richard Robin) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 12:14:59 -0400 Subject: Russian rock video caption bank now available Message-ID: Dear SEELANGers, Over the last few years, I have written about 60 SRT caption files to accompany various Russian rock videos, film trailers, and in one case a full film (the trashy, wonderfully badly acted Коснуться неба, whose script is so terribly redundant that the entire movie looks like an учебный фильм for Golosa II). SRT caption files are minuscule text files (1 to 5 Kb) that add captions to video that is played in any number of computer based media players. These include VLC (all platforms, free from videolan.org), Media Player Classic HC (free for Windows), RealPlayer, and DIVX Player, both free in their basic versions. The captions do not work out of the box with QuickTime or Windows Media Player. To learn how to download and make these captions work, go to the *Google Doc Caption directory* (no login required) at * https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B_VJr7H8vNdAMjM2YmVkYjItZDg1Zi00Njc3LWIwNDYtYzIxZWE2YTg5NDhm&hl=en * Make sure to read the READ ME file. Please keep in mind, that while I'm sharing the captions with the world, this is a classroom sideline of mine, not a major grant-supported project. That means that other than correcting inaccuracies in the READ ME file, I can't provide a whole bunch of tech support. The READ ME file covers the basics of SRT captioning. But you may have to Google "SRT captions" plus the name of your player if you have individual difficulties. However, if you cannot get access to the *Caption directory* at all, please let me know. Lack of real support also applies to typos in the actual captions, which I am sure are numerous. I'll be glad to hear from you to learn where the typos are. But I probably won't enter corrections except maybe every few months. So proof before you show! Keep in mind that in many cases, these are "targeted" captions - aimed at a class with a particular proficiency level. You can easily edit the captions to suit your own needs. See the READ ME file for a description of what these captions look like (English, Russian, mixed, dual, glossed, etc.). Copyright info: Obviously, the lyrics are copyrighted, almost always by the song's authors (indicated in the filename). However, posting lyrics of Russian songs on the Internet has never been prosecuted. Th actual video is a different matter. Finding and downloading the matching videos for the SRT caption files is up to you. See the advice in the READ ME file. True, no one gets dragged into court for posting Russian videos all over the web. But despite my "copyleft" proclivities, I'm not willing to infringe to that degree! So you'll have to find the videoclips yourself. Happy watching! Rich Robin -- Richard M. Robin Director Russian Language Program The George Washington University Washington, DC 20052 202-994-7081 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Sun Sep 12 17:06:17 2010 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 18:06:17 +0100 Subject: AW: [SEELANGS] color orange In-Reply-To: <75D697C5ED56E3479777756D06384654BF5F58253F@EXCHANGE1.unifr.ch> Message-ID: Bakhalina notes examples of apel'sinnyi and apel'sinovyi but they do not appear to be common. Pomerantsevyi from German (mentioned by John) is also listed as existing but not common. I should have mentioned, by the way, that Bakhalina is available free on the net as a compressed djvu file. I am glad Frank found examples of earlier oranzhevyi on ruscorpora.ru - I had forgotten that, even though I have it bookmarked. The apparent rarity of words for orange was puzzling me, and it is still slightly mysterious that there is apparent agreement by earlier researchers that oranzhevyi is not earlier than the 1860s. Will On 12/09/2010 11:13, FIEGUTH Rolf wrote: > Dear William, > > what does Bakhalina say about "apelsinnyj tsvet" in the sense of colour? I found it in Ilf and Petrov's 12 stul'ev. > Best wishes, > > Rolf Fieguth > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From edseelangs at GMAIL.COM Sun Sep 12 18:10:57 2010 From: edseelangs at GMAIL.COM (Edward Dumanis) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 14:10:57 -0400 Subject: Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: <60C94CC2153C4B278A9FB10C7E30118C@DAD> Message-ID: I want to call your attention that "обожествлять" that I referred to has more meanings that its perfective version "обожествить." I am sorry (with my apologies to Vladimir Solov'ev) for making the statement stronger that it should be since at that time I was thinking of its meaning in the context related to the original question posted by Daniel Rancour-Laferriere. So, the right link to the word that I used is not http://www.classes.ru/all-russian/russian-dictionary-Ozhegov-term-19166.htm but http://www.classes.ru/all-russian/russian-dictionary-Ushakov-term-37285.htm I clearly referred to the second meaning of this word there. While the first meaning on that page and the meaning of "обожествить" coinside, I believe that the priority in listing given to the first meaning there is only because it is a direct meaning rather than the meaning most frequently used. Sincerely, Edward Dumanis On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Ernest Sjogren wrote: >> With regard to Daniel's Q.E.D., "Alice through the Looking Glass" springs >> to mind . . . > > instead of a logical refutation of his argument.  You would prefer to > retreat into fiction, it appears. > > "Deified" means nothing other than "made a god of; raised to the position of > a god," of course.  If your objection to referring to Mary as a deity is (if > I may summarize how the argument progressed), "no Orthodox Christian, nor > any other Christian. nor _anyone_ who has looked deeply into the matter > thinks of or would refer to Mary as a deity," then the quotations cited are > quite to the point.  You ignore "quod _est demonstratum_" at your peril. > > Prof. Dumanis' assertion that "обожествлять" merely means "to admire" is > much more pertinent.  However, is it tenable?   See, for instance, the > online version of the Ushakov dictionary, which says: > > ОБОЖЕСТВИ́ТЬ, обожествлю, обожествишь, ·совер. (к обожествлять), кого-что > (·книж. ). Признать имеющим сверхъестественную, божественную силу, > божеством. Древние обожествили силы природы. > > [koi8-r encoding, see > > if my quotation is scrambled in transmission]. > > Ernie Sjogren > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >  options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >                   http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From luciano.dicocco at TIN.IT Sun Sep 12 18:11:39 2010 From: luciano.dicocco at TIN.IT (Luciano Di Cocco) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 20:11:39 +0200 Subject: R: [SEELANGS] Russian rock video caption bank now available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Very useful. As I see captions for ДДТ, as an old fan I have a personal question. One of my favorite ДДТ song was На небе вороны. A Russian friend said that according to her the lyrics had some strong literary reference, but she couldn’t remember which. Is it true? The song, with lyrics is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIGj2vNze0k I don't know if for copyright reasons I can post the lyrics, but they are with the song, and anyway they are very easy to follow, even for a beginner like me. Luciano Di Cocco > Dear SEELANGers, > > Over the last few years, I have written about 60 SRT caption files to > accompany various Russian rock videos, film trailers, and in one case a > full > film (the trashy, wonderfully badly acted Коснуться неба, whose script > is so > terribly redundant that the entire movie looks like an учебный фильм > for > Golosa II). ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From KALBJ at MAILBOX.SC.EDU Sun Sep 12 18:14:18 2010 From: KALBJ at MAILBOX.SC.EDU (KALB, JUDITH) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 14:14:18 -0400 Subject: call for papers: Nostos: War, The Odyssey, and Narratives of Return conference, U of SC March 2011 Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I am putting together a panel for the University of South Carolina's annual Comparative Literature conference. This year's theme is Nostos, or homecoming, centered on Homer's Odyssey and its resonances in literature and culture. My panel is devoted to Russian literature and this theme. I would like to find an additional paper and a discussant. Papers thus far are on Brodsky and Ulitskaya. The conference description follows. Please reply to me __off-list__ at jkalb at sc.edu. I will need all proposals by September 27. Thank you! Dr. Judith E. Kalb Associate Professor of Russian Dept. of Languages, Literatures, and Cultures University of South Carolina Columbia, SC 29208 email: jkalb at sc.edu fax (departmental): (803) 777-0454 CFP Nostos: War, the Odyssey, and Narratives of Return March 23-27, 2011 University of South Carolina, Columbia And if you find her poor, Ithaca has not deceived you. Wise as you have become, with so much experience, you must already have understood what Ithacas mean. (Cavafy, "Ithaca") Carol Dougherty, Classics and Comparative Literature, Wellesley Sheila Murnaghan, Classical Studies, University of Pennsylvania René Nünlist, Classics, University of Cologne Jonathan Shay, Psychiatry Department of Veterans Affairs, Naval War College James Tatum, Classics, Dartmouth A soldier comes home from war. What does he find? How does he adapt? He's been away a long time. He's had a long journey filled with wonderful and traumatic experiences. Now, there are strange people in his house doing strange things. What should he do? For almost three thousand years in the west, the archetype of this narrative has been Homer's Odyssey. The poem has fostered many successors from the Nostoi to the Aeneid, to Ulysses, March, and O Brother, Where Art Thou. The narrative remains as present to our society as it was in archaic society. Soldiers today, both men and women, are still coming home, making that fraught passage. And in the largest sense, we too, both soldiers and civilians, are always coming home, always returning to where we've never really been before to confront the different in ourselves and others. We invite a broad range of interdisciplinary papers to explore historically, philosophically, politically, and psychologically topics including but not limited to the following. What is the significance of the Odyssey today? What did it mean in archaic Greece? What does the tradition surrounding it say about the changing meaning of the concepts and practices of war, of the journey, of return, and of home? Do we ever really come home? How does homecoming have the potential to both harm and heal? What is the place of the unheimlich in the all too familiar? Abstracts for twenty minute papers should be sent to frankj at mailbox.sc.edu by October 1, 2010. Abstracts should be no more than 250 words long. Panel proposals of 750 words are due by the same date. Panels should include three papers and a respondent. This conference is sponsored by the Thirteenth Annual University of South Carolina Comparative Literature Conference, the Classics in Contemporary Perspectives Initiative, the Department of Languages, Literatures, and Cultures, the Department of Political Science, and associated Departments and Programs. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From edseelangs at GMAIL.COM Sun Sep 12 18:59:42 2010 From: edseelangs at GMAIL.COM (Edward Dumanis) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 14:59:42 -0400 Subject: Thanks - and another skazka question In-Reply-To: <4C8C0FBB.2030400@sas.ac.uk> Message-ID: Robert, I do not think that I am familiar with the version that you are translating but know a famous folk tale of a similar content: "Маша и медведь." You can find it, e.g., at http://hyaenidae.narod.ru/story1/038.html I think that "Подай милостыню" in your context means simply "Do a favor." Probably, in your case, "милостыня" is just a modification from "милость" and the expression is just a form of "Сделай милость" or "Окажи милость." You use "pancakes" and I am not sure what they use in your original. The version that I have mentioned uses "пирожки." I would think that you version uses "оладушки." If so, it would not necessarily agree with the comment made by Will Ryan. Sincerely, Edward Dumanis On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 7:24 PM, William Ryan wrote: >  Robert, > Bliny are a traditional part of the funeral feast, and a funeral feast for > family and friends is considered to be charitable giving; giving Shrovetide > pancakes is also милостыню давать. The remains of the funeral feast are > supposed to be given to the poor and needy. Without knowing the whole > context, the bliny seem to be for her mother's funeral feast, so I would > guess that your second reading makes better sense, though how to convey all > this in your translation for an audience unaware of Russian customs is > problematic. Roughly perhaps: " Here, take it. Give it for the wake. Here's > the basket - it's full. But mind you don't eat any." Emphasizing the > fullness of the basket, the religious/charitable nature of the contents, and > the warning not to eat, would all fit the need to conceal the sister (large > basket, small sister presumably - quite possible in a folk tale). Native > speakers please correct if I am wrong. > Bliny are generally a symbol of death in dreams and podbliudnye pesni. > Will > > On 11/09/2010 20:22, Robert Chandler wrote: >> >> Many thanks, Sasha, Natasha, and Hugh, for answers about the bull hide. >> >> I have another question.  A girl has married a bear.  She is asking the >> bear >> to take a basket of pancakes to her parents' home.  (She is, in fact, >> doing >> this to smuggle her sister, the bear's previous wife, out of the house of >> this murderous Bluebeard-like bear).  She has told the bear that the >> pancakes are in order to "pomyanut' mamu". >> >> Then she says to the bear, 'Ну неси.  Подай милостыню.  Вот она (т.е. >> корзинка) полная.  Да смотри: не ешь. >> >> Мy question is about the words Подай милостыню.  Is she telling the bear >> to >> give alms to any beggar he happens to meet (unlikely since they are deep >> in >> the forest).  Or is it that the pancakes are themselves a form of >> milostynya >> that she is giving to her family back home? >> >> The latter reading, if possible, seems to make much better sense. >> >> Robert >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>  Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >>   options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >>                     http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >  options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >                   http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Sun Sep 12 19:33:08 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 20:33:08 +0100 Subject: Thanks - and another skazka question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Edward, > You use "pancakes" and I am not sure what they use in your original. > The version that I have mentioned uses "пирожки." > I would think that you version uses "оладушки." > If so, it would not necessarily agree with the comment made by Will Ryan. My version, from a collection edited by Pomerantseva, gives 'bliny'. But there are pirozhki in the basket too. Thanks! R. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jwilson at SRAS.ORG Sun Sep 12 19:56:09 2010 From: jwilson at SRAS.ORG (Josh Wilson) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 23:56:09 +0400 Subject: Thanks - and another skazka question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've actually always been annoyed by folks who translate "bliny" as "pancakes." Pancakes and bliny bear almost no semblance to each other - neither in how they look, taste, feel in the mouth, nor in how they are usually eaten. It's kinda like translating "Kanadets" as "American" because, you know, that's close enough. If the basket contained kholodets, would we call that "jello?" Just my two cents... Josh Wilson Assistant Director The School of Russian and Asian Studies Editor in Chief Vestnik, The Journal of Russian and Asian Studies SRAS.org jwilson at sras.org -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Robert Chandler Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 11:33 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Thanks - and another skazka question Edward, > You use "pancakes" and I am not sure what they use in your original. > The version that I have mentioned uses "пирожки." > I would think that you version uses "оладушки." > If so, it would not necessarily agree with the comment made by Will Ryan. My version, from a collection edited by Pomerantseva, gives 'bliny'. But there are pirozhki in the basket too. Thanks! R. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Sun Sep 12 20:13:14 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 21:13:14 +0100 Subject: Questions about Afanasyev's "Nesmeyana tsarevna" Message-ID: Dear all, There are a surprising number of difficulties in this short tale – at least, there are for me. 1. Поглядишь: у кого хлеб сохнет, желтеет, а у его хозяина все бутеет3; чья скотина ноги завивает4, а его по улице брыкает; чьих коней под гору тащат, а его и в поводу не сдержать. Am I right in thinking that the point here is that it truly is difficult for horses to go downhill, especially if here is a cart behind them? 2. Подумал и пошел куда глаза глядят. Идет он полем, бежит мышь: «Ковалек, дорогой куманек! Дай денежку; я тебе сама пригожусь!» Дал ей денежку. Идет лесом, ползет жук: «Ковалек, дорогой куманек! Дай денежку; я тебе сам пригожусь!» Дал и ему денежку. Поплыл рекой, встрелся сом: «Ковалек, дорогой куманек! Дай денежку; я тебе сам пригожусь!» Он и тому не отказал, последнюю отдал. Is there any reason, other than euphony, for the choice of the word Ковалек? 3. Сам пришел в город; там людей, там дверей! Загляделся, завертелся работник на все стороны, куда идти — не знает. А перед ним стоят царские палаты, сребром-золотом убраты, у окна Несмеяна-царевна сидит и прямо на него глядит. Куда деваться? Затуманилось у него в глазах, нашел на него сон, и упал он прямо в грязь. Откуда ни взялся сом с большим усом, за ним жучок-старичок, мышка-стрижка; Here too euphony is obviously important, but does мышка-стрижка mean that the mouse has short fur? Thanks, as always, Robert ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Sun Sep 12 20:21:42 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 16:21:42 -0400 Subject: Thanks - and another skazka question In-Reply-To: <81F1ABCCB08B49D9B60224E0BFE459D2@JoshPC> Message-ID: Josh Wilson wrote: > I've actually always been annoyed by folks who translate "bliny" as > "pancakes." > > Pancakes and bliny bear almost no semblance to each other - neither in how > they look, taste, feel in the mouth, nor in how they are usually eaten. > > It's kinda like translating "Kanadets" as "American" because, you know, > that's close enough. If the basket contained kholodets, would we call that > "jello?" > > Just my two cents... So what's your proposed solution? "Crepes"? -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Sun Sep 12 21:37:24 2010 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 22:37:24 +0100 Subject: Thanks - and another skazka question In-Reply-To: <81F1ABCCB08B49D9B60224E0BFE459D2@JoshPC> Message-ID: Just depends where you live, both for English speakers and for Russian speakers. In Britain 'pancake' would be the only translation - it is generic for several kinds of flat fried batter, from large thin crepes to smaller fat Scottish pancakes - the recipes can vary widely. The bliny I have eaten, and helped to make, in Russia were mostly like English or French pancakes except that they were often, though not always, made with yeast. I have had them made from both wheat and rye flour, and I would say that many Russians don't distinguish between bliny and blinchiki and may use both words for the same object. See Oxford Engl. Dict.: *pancake. a.* A thin flat cake of batter, fried on both sides in a pan. In Britain made without a raising agent, and similar to a crêpe (cf. CRÊPE /n./ 3); in N. America made with a raising agent, and similar to a drop scone or Scotch pancake (cf. /drop-scone/ n. at SCONE /n./ 1 and /Scotch pancake/ n. at SCOTCH /adj. /and/ n./^3 Special uses 1). I think that 'pancake' in England is sufficiently non-precise that it would also translate olad'i, although if there is any filling added that would more probably be a 'fritter'. There are probably lots of regional variants in England; don't know about English as used in other parts of the world. Personally I like to use a fairly liquid mixture of wheat and rye flour, with just a little sugar and yeast, to be fried in a pan when the yeast is just beginning to work. If you can serve them with caviar and butter and flat parsley - wonderful! My children have always preferred the more English mixture of wheat flour, milk and egg, a softer kind of dish. Will On 12/09/2010 20:56, Josh Wilson wrote: > I've actually always been annoyed by folks who translate "bliny" as > "pancakes." > > Pancakes and bliny bear almost no semblance to each other - neither in how > they look, taste, feel in the mouth, nor in how they are usually eaten. > > It's kinda like translating "Kanadets" as "American" because, you know, > that's close enough. If the basket contained kholodets, would we call that > "jello?" > > Just my two cents... > > Josh Wilson > Assistant Director > The School of Russian and Asian Studies > Editor in Chief > Vestnik, The Journal of Russian and Asian Studies > SRAS.org > jwilson at sras.org > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic& East European Languages and Literatures list > [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Robert Chandler > Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 11:33 PM > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Thanks - and another skazka question > > Edward, > >> You use "pancakes" and I am not sure what they use in your original. >> The version that I have mentioned uses "�������." >> I would think that you version uses "��������." >> If so, it would not necessarily agree with the comment made by Will Ryan. > My version, from a collection edited by Pomerantseva, gives 'bliny'. But > there are pirozhki in the basket too. > > Thanks! > > R. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From elizabethskomp at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Sep 13 03:44:00 2010 From: elizabethskomp at HOTMAIL.COM (Elizabeth Skomp) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 23:44:00 -0400 Subject: CFP: Southern Conference on Slavic Studies, Alexandria, VA, April 7-9, 2011 Message-ID: CALL FOR PAPERS 49th Annual Meeting Southern Conference on Slavic Studies Alexandria, VA April 7-9, 2011 DEADLINE FOR SUBMISSION OF PROPOSALS: January 14, 2011 The 49th annual meeting of the Southern Conference on Slavic Studies (SCSS) will take place in “Old Town” Alexandria, Virginia, April 7-9, 2011, at the Westin Alexandria Hotel. The conference is being hosted by George Mason University’s Center for Eurasian Studies. The purpose of SCSS is to promote scholarship, education, and in all other ways to advance scholarly interest in Russian, Soviet, and East European studies in the Southern region of the United States and nationwide. Papers from all humanities and social science disciplines are welcome and encouraged, as is a focus on countries other than Russia/USSR. Papers and panels on all topics are welcome, but the conference will have two special themes: “Twenty Years After the Collapse,” to mark the anniversary of the end of the Soviet Union, and “Vasily Aksenov, His Work and Times,” to mark the recent passing of a man who was one of the most important literary and cultural figures of post-Stalin Russia/Soviet Union and also a distinguished professor of Russian literature and culture at George Mason University from 1987-2004. The program committee is accepting panel and paper proposals until January 14, 2011. Whole panel proposals (chair, three papers, discussant) are preferred, but proposals for individual papers are also welcome. Whole panel proposals should include the titles of each individual paper as well as a title for the panel itself and identifying information (including email addresses and institutional affiliations) for all participants. Proposals for individual papers should include email contact, institutional affiliation, and a brief (one paragraph) abstract to guide the program committee in the assembly of panels. If any AV equipment will be needed, the panel and paper proposals should indicate so. Email (preferably) your proposal to Sharon Kowalsky at sharon_kowalsky at tamu-commerce.edu, or send it by conventional post to: Dr. Sharon Kowalsky Department of History Texas A&M University-Commerce PO Box 3011 Commerce, TX 75429 The SCSS is the largest of the regional Slavic and Eurasian studies associations and its programs attract national and international scholarly participation. Alexandria and the Westin Hotel are close to Reagan National Airport (DCA), which is only five miles away and thus feasible by taxi. It also is only two stops from National Airport on the Metro to King Street station near the hotel. For conference information other than the program please contact Rex Wade (rwade at gmu.edu or 703-323-6939). For program information or proposals please contact Sharon Kowalsky (Sharon_Kowalsky at tamu-commerce.edu). -- Elizabeth Skomp, Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Russian Sewanee: The University of the South 735 University Avenue Sewanee, TN 37383 Phone: 931.598.1254 E-mail: eskomp at sewanee.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From edseelangs at GMAIL.COM Mon Sep 13 04:55:15 2010 From: edseelangs at GMAIL.COM (Edward Dumanis) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 00:55:15 -0400 Subject: Questions about Afanasyev's "Nesmeyana tsarevna" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 1. No. The meaning of the parallel clauses there is that HE is luckier than others: his wheat (rye?) swells, his cattle (rather, cows) kick (i.e., healthy, strong, in good shape), he cannot even hold his horse back with the reins while others had to pull their horses even downhill. 2. I do not know the details of the story and whether there is any indication there that HE was a blacksmith because his nickname sounds like a diminutive from blacksmith in Ukrainian. Otherwise, it is just euphony. 3. I think that "стрижка" in "мышка-стрижка" comes from "стриж" (Стрижи́ are Swifts - lats. Apodes - and are known for their agility). And "euphony is obviously important." Sincerely, Edward Dumanis 2010/9/12 Robert Chandler : > Dear all, > > There are a surprising number of difficulties in this short tale – at least, > there are for me. > > 1. > > Поглядишь: у кого хлеб  сохнет, желтеет, а у его хозяина все бутеет3; чья > скотина ноги завивает4, а его по улице брыкает; чьих коней  под гору тащат, > а его и в поводу не сдержать. > Am I right in thinking that the point here is that it truly is difficult for > horses to go downhill, especially if here is a cart behind them? > > 2. > Подумал и пошел куда глаза глядят. Идет он полем, бежит  мышь: «Ковалек, > дорогой куманек! Дай денежку; я тебе сама пригожусь!» Дал ей  денежку. Идет > лесом, ползет жук: «Ковалек, дорогой куманек! Дай денежку; я тебе  сам > пригожусь!» Дал и ему денежку. Поплыл рекой, встрелся сом: «Ковалек, > дорогой куманек! Дай денежку; я тебе сам пригожусь!» Он и тому не отказал, > последнюю отдал. > Is there any reason, other than euphony, for the choice of the word Ковалек? > > 3. > Сам  пришел в город; там людей, там дверей! Загляделся, завертелся работник > на все  стороны, куда идти — не знает. А перед ним стоят царские палаты, > сребром-золотом убраты, у окна Несмеяна-царевна сидит и прямо на него > глядит.  Куда деваться? Затуманилось у него в глазах, нашел на него сон, и > упал он прямо  в грязь. Откуда ни взялся сом с большим усом, за ним > жучок-старичок,  мышка-стрижка; > Here too euphony is obviously important, but does мышка-стрижка mean that > the mouse has short fur? > > Thanks, as always, > > Robert > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >  Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >  options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >                    http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From darancourlaferriere at COMCAST.NET Sun Sep 12 05:29:07 2010 From: darancourlaferriere at COMCAST.NET (Daniel Rancour-Laferriere) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 22:29:07 -0700 Subject: Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: <4C89FAED.5050401@sas.ac.uk> Message-ID: Dear Will Ryan, You wrote: > With regard to the original word which gave rise to this correspondence, "coredemptrix", it is a descriptive appellation which has not yet been subjected to the Western scholastic passion for definition, which the Orthodox tend to resist, and is not an article of faith for Catholics, though many would like it to be. Personally I hope it will remain as no more than one of the many poetic appellations of Mary in the litanies (who would want to define "Star of the Sea"?) and will never be dogmatically defined because although the underlying belief is not new or startling, the hopelessly neo-Latin term itself gives rise to both honest misunderstanding and deliberate misrepresentation. Not so. "Stella maris" is a passing poetic trifle, as you say, but "coredemptrix" is a serious and complex theological construct which has grown in significance ever since it developed in Spain, and especially in the "French school" from the seventeenth century onwards. There is a VAST literature on what you ridicule as a "hopelessly neo-Latin term," and I indicated just a few items from this literature in that footnote I copied into a previous post on this list. In any case, forget about Wiki. Walk with the feet, not the fingers. Go into the library of any large Christian seminary in the West, go to the section on Mary, discover how huge it is, discover the books and the journals devoted entirely to Mary (my favorite is Marianum). Although I was once a devout Catholic, and although I have written a book about the Russian Orthodox version of Mary, I was astonished at the sheer quantity of publications on the Catholic version of Mary which I discovered here at the Gradu! ate Theological Union in Berkeley. As for the possibility that coredemptrix will be "dogmatically defined," don't be dismissive. John Paul II spoke often about it in informal terms, and this has been studied by Father Arthur Burton Calkins. Keep an eye on Benedict XVI. And another matter: On Sep 10, 2010, at 2:31 AM, William Ryan wrote: With regard to Daniel's Q.E.D., "Alice through the Looking Glass" springs to mind: `When /I/ use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.' ... `That's a great deal to make one word mean,' Alice said in a thoughtful tone. `When I make a word do a lot of work like that,' said Humpty Dumpty, `I always pay it extra.' The bonus that Daniel is paying "deity" must be of Goldman Sachs proportions!/ / Will No again. Just check your OED. No bonus at all. My use of "deity" is acceptable by that dictionary's standards. Not to mention that an Orthodox authority like Lossky says (in English) that the Orthodox Mary is "deified." Perhaps this could lead to a discussion of the Orthodox notion of theosis, as well as apophatic theology. Somewhere Father Michael O'Carroll (author of the encyclopedic THEOTOKOS, 1982) wrote that "God became a Jew." He was referring to Jesus. Was that not deification too? As an atheist, I would prefer to say that Jesus became God, or, keeping in mind the pagan Hellenistic/Roman context of early Christianity which Luciano Di Cocco and others have been referring to on this list, Jesus became a god. Well, then, Miriam of Nazareth became a goddess, that is, a woman deity. With regards to the list - Daniel R-L > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jwilson at SRAS.ORG Mon Sep 13 09:03:30 2010 From: jwilson at SRAS.ORG (Josh Wilson) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 13:03:30 +0400 Subject: Thanks - and another skazka question In-Reply-To: <4C8D4814.20200@sas.ac.uk> Message-ID: This is interesting - and something I did not know. Thanks. I suppose then, for Chandler's largely British audience (I assume) that his translation is fine. For an American audience, pancake is a very specific food - it's thick, round, usually eaten with a fork. Russians usually refer to them as oladushki when they see them (although the oladushki I've eaten here tend to be fairly greasy, which doesn't happen with the specific American pancake). As oladushki and blini are very separate foods in the Russian mind, the translation of pancakes to blini has always struck me as wholly inaccurate. When describing the food for an American audience, I've found that "Russian crepe" tends to be the most effective and forming a proper image in the mind of someone that has never seen a blin. The crepe and the blin are much more similar in appearance, although the blin is a very specific Russian dish (and not exactly like the egg-rich crepe in taste or consistency)... When describing the pancakes of my homeland in Russia, I usually call them "amerikanskie oladushki." This addition of national adjectives seems to be much more common in Russian, by the way. Tortillas are sold here with "meksikanskie lepyoski" written on their packaging... Incidentally, "fritter" in American English usually denotes that the product is fried (often deep fried) rather than any particular filling... I wonder if the tortilla would count as a pancake in England as well... Josh Wilson Assistant Director The School of Russian and Asian Studies Editor in Chief Vestnik, The Journal of Russian and Asian Studies SRAS.org jwilson at sras.org -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of William Ryan Sent: Monday, September 13, 2010 1:37 AM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Thanks - and another skazka question Just depends where you live, both for English speakers and for Russian speakers. In Britain 'pancake' would be the only translation - it is generic for several kinds of flat fried batter, from large thin crepes to smaller fat Scottish pancakes - the recipes can vary widely. The bliny I have eaten, and helped to make, in Russia were mostly like English or French pancakes except that they were often, though not always, made with yeast. I have had them made from both wheat and rye flour, and I would say that many Russians don't distinguish between bliny and blinchiki and may use both words for the same object. See Oxford Engl. Dict.: *pancake. a.* A thin flat cake of batter, fried on both sides in a pan. In Britain made without a raising agent, and similar to a crêpe (cf. CRÊPE /n./ 3); in N. America made with a raising agent, and similar to a drop scone or Scotch pancake (cf. /drop-scone/ n. at SCONE /n./ 1 and /Scotch pancake/ n. at SCOTCH /adj. /and/ n./^3 Special uses 1). I think that 'pancake' in England is sufficiently non-precise that it would also translate olad'i, although if there is any filling added that would more probably be a 'fritter'. There are probably lots of regional variants in England; don't know about English as used in other parts of the world. Personally I like to use a fairly liquid mixture of wheat and rye flour, with just a little sugar and yeast, to be fried in a pan when the yeast is just beginning to work. If you can serve them with caviar and butter and flat parsley - wonderful! My children have always preferred the more English mixture of wheat flour, milk and egg, a softer kind of dish. Will On 12/09/2010 20:56, Josh Wilson wrote: > I've actually always been annoyed by folks who translate "bliny" as > "pancakes." > > Pancakes and bliny bear almost no semblance to each other - neither in how > they look, taste, feel in the mouth, nor in how they are usually eaten. > > It's kinda like translating "Kanadets" as "American" because, you know, > that's close enough. If the basket contained kholodets, would we call that > "jello?" > > Just my two cents... > > Josh Wilson > Assistant Director > The School of Russian and Asian Studies > Editor in Chief > Vestnik, The Journal of Russian and Asian Studies > SRAS.org > jwilson at sras.org > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic& East European Languages and Literatures list > [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Robert Chandler > Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 11:33 PM > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Thanks - and another skazka question > > Edward, > >> You use "pancakes" and I am not sure what they use in your original. >> The version that I have mentioned uses "�������." >> I would think that you version uses "��������." >> If so, it would not necessarily agree with the comment made by Will Ryan. > My version, from a collection edited by Pomerantseva, gives 'bliny'. But > there are pirozhki in the basket too. > > Thanks! > > R. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Mon Sep 13 09:34:51 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 10:34:51 +0100 Subject: Thanks - and another skazka question In-Reply-To: <87406CE6D38E404384BF9F2E9B1760E8@JoshPC> Message-ID: Dear Josh and all, Register does, of course, matter, as well as accuracy. Nothing would induce me to have a peasant in a folk tale talking about "Russian crepes" - whether for a British or for an American audience! Though I shall certainly try to remember your suggestion in case I need to translate 'bliny' in some other context. Many thanks both to you and to Will Ryan for your very informative messages! All the best, R. > This is interesting - and something I did not know. Thanks. I suppose then, > for Chandler's largely British audience (I assume) that his translation is > fine. > > For an American audience, pancake is a very specific food - it's thick, round, > usually eaten with a fork. Russians usually refer to them as oladushki when > they see them (although the oladushki I've eaten here tend to be fairly > greasy, which doesn't happen with the specific American pancake). > > As oladushki and blini are very separate foods in the Russian mind, the > translation of pancakes to blini has always struck me as wholly inaccurate. > When describing the food for an American audience, I've found that "Russian > crepe" tends to be the most effective and forming a proper image in the mind > of someone that has never seen a blin. The crepe and the blin are much more > similar in appearance, although the blin is a very specific Russian dish (and > not exactly like the egg-rich crepe in taste or consistency)... > > When describing the pancakes of my homeland in Russia, I usually call them > "amerikanskie oladushki." This addition of national adjectives seems to be > much more common in Russian, by the way. Tortillas are sold here with > "meksikanskie lepyoski" written on their packaging... > > Incidentally, "fritter" in American English usually denotes that the product > is fried (often deep fried) rather than any particular filling... I wonder if > the tortilla would count as a pancake in England as well... > > > Josh Wilson > Assistant Director > The School of Russian and Asian Studies > Editor in Chief > Vestnik, The Journal of Russian and Asian Studies > SRAS.org > jwilson at sras.org > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list > [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of William Ryan > Sent: Monday, September 13, 2010 1:37 AM > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Thanks - and another skazka question > > Just depends where you live, both for English speakers and for Russian > speakers. In Britain 'pancake' would be the only translation - it is > generic for several kinds of flat fried batter, from large thin crepes > to smaller fat Scottish pancakes - the recipes can vary widely. The > bliny I have eaten, and helped to make, in Russia were mostly like > English or French pancakes except that they were often, though not > always, made with yeast. I have had them made from both wheat and rye > flour, and I would say that many Russians don't distinguish between > bliny and blinchiki and may use both words for the same object. > > See Oxford Engl. Dict.: > *pancake. a.* A thin flat cake of batter, fried on both sides in a pan. > In Britain made without a raising agent, and similar to a crêpe (cf. > CRÊPE > =word&queryword=pancake&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&search_id=aW7c- > 7WLMH5-5208&result_place=2&xrefword=crepe&ps=n.> > /n./ 3); in N. America made with a raising agent, and similar to a drop > scone or Scotch pancake (cf. /drop-scone/ n. at SCONE > =word&queryword=pancake&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&search_id=aW7c- > 7WLMH5-5208&result_place=2&xrefword=scone&ps=n.> > /n./ 1 and /Scotch pancake/ n. at SCOTCH > =word&queryword=pancake&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&search_id=aW7c- > 7WLMH5-5208&result_place=2&xrefword=Scotch&homonym_no=3> > /adj. /and/ n./^3 Special uses 1). > > I think that 'pancake' in England is sufficiently non-precise that it > would also translate olad'i, although if there is any filling added that > would more probably be a 'fritter'. There are probably lots of regional > variants in England; don't know about English as used in other parts of > the world. > > Personally I like to use a fairly liquid mixture of wheat and rye flour, > with just a little sugar and yeast, to be fried in a pan when the yeast > is just beginning to work. If you can serve them with caviar and butter > and flat parsley - wonderful! My children have always preferred the more > English mixture of wheat flour, milk and egg, a softer kind of dish. > > Will > > > On 12/09/2010 20:56, Josh Wilson wrote: >> I've actually always been annoyed by folks who translate "bliny" as >> "pancakes." >> >> Pancakes and bliny bear almost no semblance to each other - neither in how >> they look, taste, feel in the mouth, nor in how they are usually eaten. >> >> It's kinda like translating "Kanadets" as "American" because, you know, >> that's close enough. If the basket contained kholodets, would we call that >> "jello?" >> >> Just my two cents... >> >> Josh Wilson >> Assistant Director >> The School of Russian and Asian Studies >> Editor in Chief >> Vestnik, The Journal of Russian and Asian Studies >> SRAS.org >> jwilson at sras.org >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: SEELANGS: Slavic& East European Languages and Literatures list >> [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Robert Chandler >> Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 11:33 PM >> To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >> Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Thanks - and another skazka question >> >> Edward, >> >>> You use "pancakes" and I am not sure what they use in your original. >>> The version that I have mentioned uses "�������." >>> I would think that you version uses "��������." >>> If so, it would not necessarily agree with the comment made by Will Ryan. >> My version, from a collection edited by Pomerantseva, gives 'bliny'. But >> there are pirozhki in the basket too. >> >> Thanks! >> >> R. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Mon Sep 13 10:44:18 2010 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 11:44:18 +0100 Subject: Thanks - and another skazka question In-Reply-To: <87406CE6D38E404384BF9F2E9B1760E8@JoshPC> Message-ID: Interesting that tortillas are sold to Russians as "meksikanskie lepyoshki". This is presumably because Russia has imported the product, or recipe, from the US. The British, for whom Spain is a major holiday destination and retirement home, not to mention a refuge for fugitives from the law, would quite probably nowadays call a tortilla a tortilla, and they would probably mean a thick potato omelette made with sliced potatoes lightly boiled in olive oil and then cooked in a pan in layers with beaten egg. At one time it might have been called a Spanish omelette, but that term was also used in cheap restaurants to denote a revolting omelette filled with diced frozen vegetables, mostly peas. I think a tortilla in Mexico and the US may be different - but I have never had one. A fritter in Britain is pan-fried, often with sliced apple or banana, or other filling, like olad'i as I have had them. An English school lunch during World War II could include, on a good day, Spam or corned beef fritters. I think English fritters are essentially the same as Russian olad'i, although the latter often include yeast. Context is everything. Will On 13/09/2010 10:03, Josh Wilson wrote: > This is interesting - and something I did not know. Thanks. I suppose then, for Chandler's largely British audience (I assume) that his translation is fine. > > For an American audience, pancake is a very specific food - it's thick, round, usually eaten with a fork. Russians usually refer to them as oladushki when they see them (although the oladushki I've eaten here tend to be fairly greasy, which doesn't happen with the specific American pancake). > > As oladushki and blini are very separate foods in the Russian mind, the translation of pancakes to blini has always struck me as wholly inaccurate. When describing the food for an American audience, I've found that "Russian crepe" tends to be the most effective and forming a proper image in the mind of someone that has never seen a blin. The crepe and the blin are much more similar in appearance, although the blin is a very specific Russian dish (and not exactly like the egg-rich crepe in taste or consistency)... > > When describing the pancakes of my homeland in Russia, I usually call them "amerikanskie oladushki." This addition of national adjectives seems to be much more common in Russian, by the way. Tortillas are sold here with "meksikanskie lepyoski" written on their packaging... > > Incidentally, "fritter" in American English usually denotes that the product is fried (often deep fried) rather than any particular filling... I wonder if the tortilla would count as a pancake in England as well... > > > Josh Wilson > Assistant Director > The School of Russian and Asian Studies > Editor in Chief > Vestnik, The Journal of Russian and Asian Studies > SRAS.org > jwilson at sras.org > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic& East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of William Ryan > Sent: Monday, September 13, 2010 1:37 AM > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Thanks - and another skazka question > > Just depends where you live, both for English speakers and for Russian > speakers. In Britain 'pancake' would be the only translation - it is > generic for several kinds of flat fried batter, from large thin crepes > to smaller fat Scottish pancakes - the recipes can vary widely. The > bliny I have eaten, and helped to make, in Russia were mostly like > English or French pancakes except that they were often, though not > always, made with yeast. I have had them made from both wheat and rye > flour, and I would say that many Russians don't distinguish between > bliny and blinchiki and may use both words for the same object. > > See Oxford Engl. Dict.: > *pancake. a.* A thin flat cake of batter, fried on both sides in a pan. > In Britain made without a raising agent, and similar to a crêpe (cf. > CRÊPE > > /n./ 3); in N. America made with a raising agent, and similar to a drop > scone or Scotch pancake (cf. /drop-scone/ n. at SCONE > > /n./ 1 and /Scotch pancake/ n. at SCOTCH > > /adj. /and/ n./^3 Special uses 1). > > I think that 'pancake' in England is sufficiently non-precise that it > would also translate olad'i, although if there is any filling added that > would more probably be a 'fritter'. There are probably lots of regional > variants in England; don't know about English as used in other parts of > the world. > > Personally I like to use a fairly liquid mixture of wheat and rye flour, > with just a little sugar and yeast, to be fried in a pan when the yeast > is just beginning to work. If you can serve them with caviar and butter > and flat parsley - wonderful! My children have always preferred the more > English mixture of wheat flour, milk and egg, a softer kind of dish. > > Will > > > On 12/09/2010 20:56, Josh Wilson wrote: >> I've actually always been annoyed by folks who translate "bliny" as >> "pancakes." >> >> Pancakes and bliny bear almost no semblance to each other - neither in how >> they look, taste, feel in the mouth, nor in how they are usually eaten. >> >> It's kinda like translating "Kanadets" as "American" because, you know, >> that's close enough. If the basket contained kholodets, would we call that >> "jello?" >> >> Just my two cents... >> >> Josh Wilson >> Assistant Director >> The School of Russian and Asian Studies >> Editor in Chief >> Vestnik, The Journal of Russian and Asian Studies >> SRAS.org >> jwilson at sras.org >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: SEELANGS: Slavic& East European Languages and Literatures list >> [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Robert Chandler >> Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 11:33 PM >> To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >> Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Thanks - and another skazka question >> >> Edward, >> >>> You use "pancakes" and I am not sure what they use in your original. >>> The version that I have mentioned uses "�������." >>> I would think that you version uses "��������." >>> If so, it would not necessarily agree with the comment made by Will Ryan. >> My version, from a collection edited by Pomerantseva, gives 'bliny'. But >> there are pirozhki in the basket too. >> >> Thanks! >> >> R. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Mon Sep 13 11:42:57 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 07:42:57 -0400 Subject: Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dan, God became a Jew is not deification but Divine Incarnation. A Jew became God would be deification. Herein lies the difference between the view of a believer in Christ (the former) and an atheist, or an apostate (i.e., once a believer but no longer--subscribing to the latter sentence). As to the vast literature on Mary as Co-redemptrix, I agree. But it all has appeared since you stopped being Roman Catholic, I believe: the concept is so new and so much against the Trident notion of Jesus as the sole Redemptor. Again, contradicting the Trident is a problem only insofar as every apt and even piercing "poetic trifle" (what a stab in the body of liturgical poetics, an immensely effective and important aspect of true theology!) is understood as dogmatically "obliging"--i.e., necessary to codify as either a dogma or a heresy. It is your refutation against the stubborn post-Kantian contemporary Catholic compulsive "multiplication of dogmas" that is the stumbling block here. Not a problem for an Orthodox mind, which prefers tropes in liturgical poetics to speculative dogmatic categories. This means that the Orthodox, in their primarily liturgical theological predication, prefer a correspondence between the tenor and the vehicle in a metaphor in ONLY ONE feature, e! .g! ., the function for Salvation, to that of a near-complete identity between the signifier and the signified, typical for a dogmatic discourse discarding tropes. With that claim, I did open the Pandora's Box of the whole discussion on SEELANGS. I still think this difference in mentality is important to bear in mind when considering your topic. I believe that many fewer people lapse from the Orthodox faith than from Roman Catholicism for that precise reason: the Orthodox do not feel obliged to turn every theologumena (-on) (Serge Bulgakov's term) into a dogma. But back to the beginning: theosis (obozhenie) is a form of Transfiguration (as in Mount Tabor, with Moses and Elijah, not with Jesus Himself, Who transcended even their degree of transfiguration, even there and then). That is, theosis is somethig EVERY person can have if they strive to it and lead a saintly life that reflects God's light. Deification in the sense of turning INTO a specific deity--rather than partaking of God's energy by reflecting it (Palamas), is something pagan, to a Christian mind. And yes, the direction in any maxim matters, from the point of view of formal logic: man (e.g., a Jew) becoming God is deification (an abomination in the eyes of anyone who does not believe in Jesus as Christ, e.g., for any sincere Jew), but God becoming a Jew is Incarnation (NOT deification)--something we OK, Vitalii, I personally, but as an Orthodox Christian and like all of them/us) believe freely and completely. Turning man into a god is not the same as turning God into a ! ma! n/Man. Just as turning joy into pain is not the same as turning pain into joy. I am rather moved by your admission that you once considered all these points of view from within Catholicism, Dan. It is movingly personal. It is, however, also symptomatic for the Catholic constant production of ever new dogmas--and subsequently pretending they have always been there!--that causes many besides you to lapse. But in the original church (e.g., before the division between the East and the West, or around Trident, say, not even speaking of the Nicene Creed), these things were produced sparingly and with great internal battles, by sincere believers, not ex cathedra, as something the dumb flock had merely to obey. Sorry, here comes my basic disagreement with people Like John Paul the Second, whom PERSONALLY I respect immensely, objecting only to his infallibility. In that matter, it is not merely a point about dogma that differs between the Catholics and the Orthodox, but something in the attitude to formulating and maintaining truths AS dogma. There is a lot of ! We! stern Mariology rejected by the Orthodox. There is even more of the Orthodox Mariology (e.g., some of Bulgakov's beautiful insights) that would have been rejected by the Orthodox, had it been a matter of obligatory dogma rather than someone's personal insights, or theologumena (as Bugakov himself called that). Again, Dan, I am detecting a serious and sincere misunderstanding here (e.g., of the vectors of transformation, or better, transfiguration, between the human and the divine), rather than any stubborn rejection of all (organized religion"'s dogma as "bullshitting". My respects. But also, please try to understand my (very lame!) attempt at clarification. Very truly yours, Olga ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From luciano.dicocco at TIN.IT Mon Sep 13 13:26:03 2010 From: luciano.dicocco at TIN.IT (Luciano Di Cocco) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 15:26:03 +0200 Subject: R: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix In-Reply-To: <20100913074257.AFU17094@mstore-prod-2.pdc.uis.georgetown.edu> Message-ID: I had decided to continue this discussion (for me very interesting) only off-line. But I find that a couple of points are worth a specification. If the moderator decides to end the thread for me it's OK. And I suggest uninterested SEELANGers to use the "Delete" on my mail at this point. Anyway... Dear Olga, I really appreciate your sincere point of view, but I disagree on your generalizations. I am an atheist. If I am an apostate is open to question. I used to be a practicing Catholic from 8 to 12. Due to (intellectual) disagreements with my parson, I went on a pause. With years I've become an atheist. While I agree that "God became a Jew" is very different from "A Jew became God", as an atheist I disagree on your conclusions. I cannot speak for Dan and at times strongly disagree with him. And I disagree with his conclusion that " God became a Jew " is deification. It's a Divine Incarnation as you say. But "A Jew became God " is a different matter. I wouldn't have used it in this context, but it's a common comment in the context of the historical Jesus. It refers to the true beginning of Christianity, when the Religion of Jesus became the Religion about Jesus. The problem is not this passage. Even a believer agree. The disagreement can be on the relationship between the two. For a believer the two coincide. For a non believer there can be (but not necessarily) big differences. I really appreciate your assertion about Orthodox Christians being less subject to apostasy than Catholic, but I stay unconvinced. Are there statistics? Anyway, and this can have a (very stretched) relationship with the theme of the list, there are significant social differences. In Europe, for historical reasons, the relationship between ethnicity and religious adherence is very different from nation to nation. If we should take the most striking case, in my impression is Nederlands. Previously a maily protestant nation, now the majority is catholic due to "apostasy" of many protestants. My ancestors by mother were Orthodox immigrated in Italy a couple of centuries ago from Greece. Del Greco, meaning that some ancestor of mine was known as "the son of the Greek". Mainly they loaded and unloaded ships by hand. In the second half of '800 they became socialist and not atheists but generically Christians, strongly anti clerical. This is a comparative point with Russia. In Italy there was a strong anti clerical socialist Christian movement. My favorite is Davide Lazzaretti, who preached not far from my town. For those who can read Italian here there is a basic introduction: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davide_Lazzaretti I don't know if a comparative analysis of Lazzaretti, Tolstoy and others have been made. On the point of Mary. Catholic Church come very close to defining her a deity. She is defined (Lumen gentium, one of the key documents of Vatican II) as superior to all _other_ creatures (but a creature anyway), even to angels. She, like only Jesus, is dispensed from sin. Like Enoch and Elijah she is dispensed from death. This make her unique among creatures but not a deity in the post-Nicea conception. By the way, how could an Orthodox react to these specific affirmation about Mary? Some commentators tell that in the draft of Lumen gentium Mary was explicitly defined as "coredemprix", but to avoid problems with Orthodoxy the almost equivalent but less explicit definition of cooperato in Redempton was preferred. Thanks Olga for your sincerity. Regards to all. Luciano Di Cocco > Dear Dan, > God became a Jew is not deification but Divine Incarnation. A Jew > became God would be deification. Herein lies the difference between the > view of a believer in Christ (the former) and an atheist, or an > apostate (i.e., once a believer but no longer--subscribing to the > latter sentence). > As to the vast literature on Mary as Co-redemptrix, I agree. But it all > has appeared since you stopped being Roman Catholic, I believe: the > concept is so new and so much against the Trident notion of Jesus as > the sole Redemptor. Again, contradicting the Trident is a problem only > insofar as every apt and even piercing "poetic trifle" (what a stab in > the body of liturgical poetics, an immensely effective and important > aspect of true theology!) is understood as dogmatically "obliging"-- > i.e., necessary to codify as either a dogma or a heresy. It is your > refutation against the stubborn post-Kantian contemporary Catholic > compulsive "multiplication of dogmas" that is the stumbling block here. > Not a problem for an Orthodox mind, which prefers tropes in liturgical > poetics to speculative dogmatic categories. This means that the > Orthodox, in their primarily liturgical theological predication, prefer > a correspondence between the tenor and the vehicle in a metaphor in > ONLY ONE feature, e! > .g! > ., the function for Salvation, to that of a near-complete identity > between the signifier and the signified, typical for a dogmatic > discourse discarding tropes. With that claim, I did open the Pandora's > Box of the whole discussion on SEELANGS. I still think this difference > in mentality is important to bear in mind when considering your topic. > I believe that many fewer people lapse from the Orthodox faith than > from Roman Catholicism for that precise reason: the Orthodox do not > feel obliged to turn every theologumena (-on) (Serge Bulgakov's term) > into a dogma. > But back to the beginning: theosis (obozhenie) is a form of > Transfiguration (as in Mount Tabor, with Moses and Elijah, not with > Jesus Himself, Who transcended even their degree of transfiguration, > even there and then). That is, theosis is somethig EVERY person can > have if they strive to it and lead a saintly life that reflects God's > light. Deification in the sense of turning INTO a specific deity-- > rather than partaking of God's energy by reflecting it (Palamas), is > something pagan, to a Christian mind. And yes, the direction in any > maxim matters, from the point of view of formal logic: man (e.g., a > Jew) becoming God is deification (an abomination in the eyes of anyone > who does not believe in Jesus as Christ, e.g., for any sincere Jew), > but God becoming a Jew is Incarnation (NOT deification)--something we > OK, Vitalii, I personally, but as an Orthodox Christian and like all of > them/us) believe freely and completely. Turning man into a god is not > the same as turning God into a ! > ma! > n/Man. Just as turning joy into pain is not the same as turning pain > into joy. > I am rather moved by your admission that you once considered all these > points of view from within Catholicism, Dan. It is movingly personal. > It is, however, also symptomatic for the Catholic constant production > of ever new dogmas--and subsequently pretending they have always been > there!--that causes many besides you to lapse. But in the original > church (e.g., before the division between the East and the West, or > around Trident, say, not even speaking of the Nicene Creed), these > things were produced sparingly and with great internal battles, by > sincere believers, not ex cathedra, as something the dumb flock had > merely to obey. Sorry, here comes my basic disagreement with people > Like John Paul the Second, whom PERSONALLY I respect immensely, > objecting only to his infallibility. In that matter, it is not merely a > point about dogma that differs between the Catholics and the Orthodox, > but something in the attitude to formulating and maintaining truths AS > dogma. There is a lot of ! > We! > stern Mariology rejected by the Orthodox. There is even more of the > Orthodox Mariology (e.g., some of Bulgakov's beautiful insights) that > would have been rejected by the Orthodox, had it been a matter of > obligatory dogma rather than someone's personal insights, or > theologumena (as Bugakov himself called that). > Again, Dan, I am detecting a serious and sincere misunderstanding here > (e.g., of the vectors of transformation, or better, transfiguration, > between the human and the divine), rather than any stubborn rejection > of all (organized religion"'s dogma as "bullshitting". My respects. But > also, please try to understand my (very lame!) attempt at > clarification. > Very truly yours, > Olga ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From cllazm at HOFSTRA.EDU Mon Sep 13 17:30:52 2010 From: cllazm at HOFSTRA.EDU (Alexandar Mihailovic) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 12:30:52 -0500 Subject: Call for Papers at Russian-themed panel (NEMLA, 7-11 April 2011; New Brunswick, NJ) Message-ID: Dear SEELANG-ovtsy: There is still room for at least one more presenter on the panel I am organizing for the Northeast Modern Language Association (NEMLA) next Spring. The topic of this particular panel is ideal for the venue. The Zimmerli Art Musuem in New Brunswick, NJ has a stunning collection of contemporary Russian art, and I am in the process of arranging a reception for the Russian specialists at the conference. Alex Mihailovic "Russian Dissident Art and Writing in the Soviet Union" The underground market of dissident work in the visual and literary arts became increasingly influential in the general cultural life of major Russian cities during the last two decades of the Soviet Union. We will examine the legacy of Russian dissident art, literature and the unexpected ways in which it occasionally intersected with the genre of politicized belles-lettres known as publitsistika. Abstracts of no more than 250 words should be sent by September 30, 2011 to Alexandar Mihailovic (cllazm at hofstra.edu) and may also consider how dissident identities contributed to post-Soviet paradigms of the Russian intelligentsia. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Mon Sep 13 19:21:58 2010 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 15:21:58 -0400 Subject: Job ad, deparment chair Message-ID: Pass it along to those who might be interested: The Department of Language and Foreign Studies of American University invites applications for the position of Chair of the Department of Language and Foreign Studies, to begin in the fall semester, 2011. Specialization: open, but the successful candidate will have expertise in French, German, Italian, Russian, Spanish and Latin American studies, and/or Comparative Literature. Professor or Associate Professor rank required. Responsibilities: Chairing the Department of Language and Foreign Studies, which entails strategic planning, development of emergent areas of expertise, faculty and staff management, coordination of interdisciplinary activities, assistance with curriculum building and securing external funding. Teaching two courses per year in the applicant’s general field. Maintaining an active and productive research agenda. Candidates should possess an outstanding record of scholarship; exceptional communication and interpersonal skills; experience as department chair or program director; the ability to lead the department in developing and implementing a compelling vision for its research, education and service programs. Salary commensurate with experience. Applicants should submit a dossier by mailing CV, three letters of recommendation and a letter of interest indicating whether or not attending the 2010 MLA convention, to Chair Search Committee, Department of Language and Foreign Studies, American University, Washington DC, 20016-8045. Review of applications will begin on 1 November, 2010, and will continue until the position is filled. American University is an equal employment opportunity affirmative action employer committed to a diverse faculty, staff and student body. Women and minority candidates are strongly encouraged to apply. Alina Israeli Associate Professor of Russian LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave. Washington DC 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Adrienne_Harris at BAYLOR.EDU Mon Sep 13 19:22:48 2010 From: Adrienne_Harris at BAYLOR.EDU (Harris, Adrienne M.) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 14:22:48 -0500 Subject: oranzhevyi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For those interested in "oranzhevyi" and the nouns the color describes: "Oranzhevoe solntse" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxAgdk-2FHA All the best, Adrienne Harris -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of anne marie devlin Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 5:44 AM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] GPS directions, color schemes, and other linguistic universals Just a memory re: oranzhevyi and it's place in the Russian language. there is a song I vaguely remember my daughter learnt in detskyi sad which has the lines oranzhevoe nebo, oranzhevyi verblyud. It seems to portray some sort of exotic even pyschodelic world. if you take it in context with the Beatles Lucy in the sky with diamonds and the reference to tangerine dreams and marmalade skies, there is maybe some connection in both languages between things of a yellowy/reddish hue and the fantastic??? Of course, here in Ireland, orange has completely different connotations AM > Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 11:12:21 +0100 > From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] GPS directions, color schemes, and other linguistic universals > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > Yes, an interesting article. It begins "Before I knew that school > buses were yellow, I experienced them as tangerine." and mentions > sinii/goluboi and Russian colour awareness. > > This prompted me to some "Wort und Sache" reflections. As a child in a > largish working-class family in WW2 I did not see an orange until well > after the war, and tangerines, satsumas etc re-emerged into general use > several years later, and then only as rather exotic Christmas treats. So > I don't know how I learned to identify orange as a colour. Presumably by > instruction but without any specific point of reference. And I still > would not normally employ tangerine as a first-choice colour term, and > think of it as a word more likely to be seen in a fashion magazine or > list of paint shades. My memory of American school buses is that they > are indeed yellow. > > In the Russian context, as a student in Leningrad in the early sixties I > never saw an orange or any other citrus fruit. I do in fact wonder if > the word "oranzhevyi" is as common in Russian as "orange" (as a colour > word) is in English. The etymological dictionaries suggest that > "oranzhevyi" was a borrowing from French in the 1860s, while in English > "orange" as a colour has been in use at least since the 16th century. In > Russian the colour word does not have the mnemonic benefit of a > corresponding fruit referent as the English does. And as far as I know > "apel'sinovyi" is not commonly used as a colour word. So what did > Russian use before they had "oranzhevyi" and is "oranzhevyi" a > first-choice word now? A quick unscientific search on Google and Yandex > suggests that "a yellow orange" is not a normal word combination in > English while "zheltyi apel'sin" is quite possible in Russian. I imagine > that "an orange orange" would be even less likely in English, since it > is a jingle, while "oranzhevyi apel'sin" would be quite possible in Russian. > > Will Ryan > > On 07/09/2010 22:10, Paul B. Gallagher wrote: > > > > > > Interesting musings by Ange Mlinko, with references to some recent > > publications. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Mon Sep 13 21:36:15 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 17:36:15 -0400 Subject: more honorable than the Cherubim In-Reply-To: <002901cb5347$373c4030$a5b4c090$@dicocco@tin.it> Message-ID: Mary is definitely above angels for the Orthodox (cf. the subject title--from the most famous hymn to Her in the Orthodox Church). But that is only because having flesh, in Christianity, is more honorable than not having it--because of the importance of Incarnation. Many Hymns for Christ's own Ascension state that the angels were stunned by beholding the Son of Man (a Man!) rising above themselves. When you are an angel and have no flesh, you comprehend neither what it is nor how it can be honored above the angelic state. Having flesh is also tied with having freedom--including trhat of rejecting God. Humans have it but angels don't--after the lapse of demons, that is. Christ has become Man, not Angel. But this is a predication about Incarnation, not about divinity. Moses, Enoch and Elijah are mortal although it is likely (for a believer) that they were taken to heaven in the flesh. Now on apostasy. It just means that you stop believing (i.e., trusting) and confessing God. Any moral connotations (of betrayal) come from the point of view of a believer, to whom God is still real. For someone who has lost, or is convinced of having lost, their faith, there is no betrayal, as the reality of God, as a person to whom you may be faithful or unfaithful, doesn't seem to be present. I keep crying and praying when I hear about such things but I cannot force anyone to see that reality. Apostasy is immoral only if you still believe He is real and betray Him out of cowardice, lack of love for Him, or/and all those things we usually consider to be betrayal when we speak about our real and live friends. So in a sense, you are right: what kind of personal loyalty can be betrayed if you no longer believe there is a person to be loyal/faithful to? I stand corrected. None of this, however, including even the Palamist notion of theosis, has much to do with a creature being, or becoming a deity (the ancient Greek APOtheosis). For the Orthodox and the Catholics (unless we talk sects and folk religious syncretism), saints are not gods. But they have indeed partaken of God's nature through the uncreated light He shines on them, and they are pure enough to reflect. This is what theosis means for the Orthodox--not becoming gods but becoming one in and with God, through the Communion, and through partaking of His light (Palamas' energeia). This is Palamas, not me speaking. The same is true about Mary, only the degree is greater: she has become God's temple. She contains Him in an exemplary fashion, as the one who gave Him flesh. We the Orthodox don't believe not only in the dogma of Coredemptrix but also in another relatively new (and arbitrary) dogma, of Her being determined to be exempt from sin (the so-called Immaculate Conception, different! f! rom Her own conceiving Jesus as a Virgin). This dogma actually seems to detract from Her merit of beeing freely and "effortfully" sinless. I would not say apostasy is less common among the Orthodox. But reasons for it are usually not because of some serious disagreement with a formulation in speculative theology. In other words, these reasons are less "Kantian". ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From russell-valentino at UIOWA.EDU Tue Sep 14 04:32:47 2010 From: russell-valentino at UIOWA.EDU (Valentino, Russell) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 23:32:47 -0500 Subject: poem search Message-ID: Dear colleagues, A historian colleague is looking for a poem by Mikhail Lukonin that translates as "Sleep, people," and shows up in the last movement of Mieczyslaw Weinberg's Sixth Symphony. Can anyone point me to this? Thanks very much in advance, Russell Russell Scott Valentino Professor and Chair Department of Cinema and Comparative Literature Editor, The Iowa Review University of Iowa tel. 319-335-2827 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From caron.4 at BUCKEYEMAIL.OSU.EDU Tue Sep 14 05:11:04 2010 From: caron.4 at BUCKEYEMAIL.OSU.EDU (Inna Caron) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 05:11:04 +0000 Subject: poem search In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Russell, here is the text of the poem. If it doesn't come out right, follow this link: http://harmonia.tomsk.ru/pages/78/ and scroll down to the last poem. Михаил Луконин "Спите, люди ..." Спите, люди, отдохните. Вы устали. Отдохните от любви и маяты. Млечный путь усеян звездными кустами, Ваши окна отцветают, как цветы. Наработались, устали ваши руки. Нагляделись и наискрились глаза, И сердца, устав от радости и муки, Тихо вздрагивают, встав на тормоза. Спите, люди, это просто ночь покуда, Вы не бойтесь - день проснётся, снова жив. Спите, люди, ночь такая - просто чудо. Отдыхайте, пятки-яблоки сложив. Все поля теперь уснули под Москвою. Спит столица, спит с ладонью под щекой. И волнует красотой и добротою Нашей жизни, и хранит её покой. Снова Волгу звёзды крупно оросили, Миссисипи и Меконгу спать пора. Спят детишки отдыхающей России. Тише, тише - не будите до утра. Спите, люди, сном предутренним одеты. Отдыхайте для работы, для игры, Привязав на нитке дальние ракеты, Словно детские зеленые шары. Чтобы дети и колосья вырастали, Чтоб проснуться в свете дня, а не во мгле - Спите, люди, отдохните, солнце встанет, Будут скрипки петь о мире на земле. Inna ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] on behalf of Valentino, Russell [russell-valentino at UIOWA.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 12:32 AM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] poem search Dear colleagues, A historian colleague is looking for a poem by Mikhail Lukonin that translates as "Sleep, people," and shows up in the last movement of Mieczyslaw Weinberg's Sixth Symphony. Can anyone point me to this? Thanks very much in advance, Russell Russell Scott Valentino Professor and Chair Department of Cinema and Comparative Literature Editor, The Iowa Review University of Iowa tel. 319-335-2827 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From russell-valentino at UIOWA.EDU Tue Sep 14 05:23:28 2010 From: russell-valentino at UIOWA.EDU (Valentino, Russell) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 00:23:28 -0500 Subject: poem search In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Excellent. Thank you, Inna. Came through just fine. Russell -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Inna Caron Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 12:11 AM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] poem search Dear Russell, here is the text of the poem. If it doesn't come out right, follow this link: http://harmonia.tomsk.ru/pages/78/ and scroll down to the last poem. Михаил Луконин "Спите, люди ..." Спите, люди, отдохните. Вы устали. Отдохните от любви и маяты. Млечный путь усеян звездными кустами, Ваши окна отцветают, как цветы. Наработались, устали ваши руки. Нагляделись и наискрились глаза, И сердца, устав от радости и муки, Тихо вздрагивают, встав на тормоза. Спите, люди, это просто ночь покуда, Вы не бойтесь - день проснётся, снова жив. Спите, люди, ночь такая - просто чудо. Отдыхайте, пятки-яблоки сложив. Все поля теперь уснули под Москвою. Спит столица, спит с ладонью под щекой. И волнует красотой и добротою Нашей жизни, и хранит её покой. Снова Волгу звёзды крупно оросили, Миссисипи и Меконгу спать пора. Спят детишки отдыхающей России. Тише, тише - не будите до утра. Спите, люди, сном предутренним одеты. Отдыхайте для работы, для игры, Привязав на нитке дальние ракеты, Словно детские зеленые шары. Чтобы дети и колосья вырастали, Чтоб проснуться в свете дня, а не во мгле - Спите, люди, отдохните, солнце встанет, Будут скрипки петь о мире на земле. Inna ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] on behalf of Valentino, Russell [russell-valentino at UIOWA.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 12:32 AM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] poem search Dear colleagues, A historian colleague is looking for a poem by Mikhail Lukonin that translates as "Sleep, people," and shows up in the last movement of Mieczyslaw Weinberg's Sixth Symphony. Can anyone point me to this? Thanks very much in advance, Russell Russell Scott Valentino Professor and Chair Department of Cinema and Comparative Literature Editor, The Iowa Review University of Iowa tel. 319-335-2827 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From obukhina at ACLS.ORG Tue Sep 14 14:35:47 2010 From: obukhina at ACLS.ORG (Olga Bukhina) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 10:35:47 -0400 Subject: ACLS Fellowships and Grants in East European Studies in academic year 2010-11 In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: The American Council of Learned Societies announces Fellowships and Grants in East European Studies In academic year 2010-11 For research and language training related to Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Kosovo/a, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Poland, Romania, Serbia, Slovakia, and Slovenia Funding is provided by the U.S. Department of State under the Research and Training for Eastern Europe and the Independent States of the Former Soviet Union Act of 1983, as amended (Title VIII). All applicants must be U.S. citizens or permanent residents. Dissertation fellowships (deadline: November 10, 2010) For graduate students at U.S. universities who have completed all requirements for the Ph.D. except the dissertation (ABDs). Applicants can apply for research fellowships for use in Eastern Europe or for writing fellowships for completing the dissertation outside of Eastern Europe after research is complete. Early career postdoctoral fellowships (deadline: November 10, 2010) For scholars before tenure, including independent scholars. Language grants to institutions (deadline: January 14, 2011) For U.S. institutions of higher education to conduct intensive summer language courses at the beginning, intermediate, and advanced-mastery levels. Language grants to individuals (deadline: January 14, 2011) For attendance at intensive summer language courses (priority given to graduate students seeking to acquire the language as a basic research tool). Travel grants (deadline: January 28, 2011) For travel to conferences to present research papers (all academic ranks). Conference grants (deadline: January 28, 2011) To support planning workshops and conferences for the presentation of significant new research. Request for proposals for research on heritage speakers (deadline: January 14, 2011) Individuals or collaborative teams are invited to propose socio-linguistic research on U.S. communities of heritage speakers of an East European language. The project should produce an analytical paper and a syllabus for an advanced-mastery course for heritage speakers to bring their language competence to a professional level. Further information is available at http://www.acls.org/programs/eesp American Council of Learned Societies 633 Third Avenue, New York, NY 10017-6795, www.acls.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From irinasix at KU.EDU Tue Sep 14 15:20:05 2010 From: irinasix at KU.EDU (Six, Irina Anatolyevna) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 10:20:05 -0500 Subject: R: [SEELANGS] Russian rock video caption bank now available Message-ID: I use this song in my Contemporary Russian Culture class at KU. As I remember from my extensive reading on Shevchuk, this song was written after the death of his wife Elmira. Elmira died in the age of 24 of cancer in 1992. They had one son Peter. I was looking for literary reference of this songs, but could not trace any mentioning of it Dr. Irina Six The University of Kansas irinasix at ku.edu www.ku.edu/~slavic ________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list on behalf of Luciano Di Cocco Sent: Sun 9/12/2010 1:11 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] R: [SEELANGS] Russian rock video caption bank now available Very useful. As I see captions for ???, as an old fan I have a personal question. One of my favorite ??? song was ?? ???? ??????. A Russian friend said that according to her the lyrics had some strong literary reference, but she couldn't remember which. Is it true? The song, with lyrics is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIGj2vNze0k I don't know if for copyright reasons I can post the lyrics, but they are with the song, and anyway they are very easy to follow, even for a beginner like me. Luciano Di Cocco > Dear SEELANGers, > > Over the last few years, I have written about 60 SRT caption files to > accompany various Russian rock videos, film trailers, and in one case a > full > film (the trashy, wonderfully badly acted ????????? ????, whose script > is so > terribly redundant that the entire movie looks like an ??????? ????? > for > Golosa II). ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From redorbrown at YAHOO.COM Tue Sep 14 16:09:45 2010 From: redorbrown at YAHOO.COM (B. Shir) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 09:09:45 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Dear  Seelangers,  a man came to my department yesterday, and brought his play, actually, a comedy: Александр  Чаглай, СЫГРАЕМ     ПРЕЗИДЕНТА.it is in Russian, of course, and I managed to convert his files into MS Word documents. If you are interested to read  the play - please contact me at redorbrown at yahoo.com. He wants his play to be staged, or translated, or just reviewed by a specialist. Oh, I forgot to mention that he is visiting his daughter here in Chicago and his flight back to Russia, Evpatoria is scheduled on Sept.30 but he will have access to email. He is desperate, he needs help, and, most importantly, the play IS FUNNY!!! Upon your request and his permission I will be able to provide you also with his phone number in Chicago. Hope to hear from you! Liza Ginzburg --- On Mon, 9/13/10, Kaiser-Chen, Aaron wrote: From: Kaiser-Chen, Aaron Subject: files To: redorbrown at yahoo.com Date: Monday, September 13, 2010, 3:56 PM Hi Professor Ginzburg,   Here are the files from Rudolph’s CD. I tried opening them and they come out as nonsense (or mojibake/krakozyabry) I’m not sure how to fix this. I think this website may be able to fix the files, but I wouldn’t count on it: http://www.online-decoder.com/ I hope this is what he meant to give you. I’m so sorry to have bothered you with this. Thank you for your time, Aaron Kaiser-Chen ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From redorbrown at YAHOO.COM Tue Sep 14 16:12:02 2010 From: redorbrown at YAHOO.COM (B. Shir) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 09:12:02 -0700 Subject: a new dramaturg,and his play: please see my previous email (without any subject,mistakingly!) Liza Ginzburg Message-ID: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Tue Sep 14 17:38:56 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 13:38:56 -0400 Subject: No subject In-Reply-To: <243034.56956.qm@web50607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Liza, I would love to take a look at the play! Olga ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Tue Sep 14 17:47:39 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 18:47:39 +0100 Subject: Buravchik Message-ID: Dear all, In ‘Tsar’-chernoknizhnik’, from Ozhegov’s SEVERNYE SKAZKI, the hero, after transforming himself into a number of different wild animals, in order to hide from the evil tsar, бегал, бегал, прибежал перед царски окошки, овернулся золотым буравчиком и начал кататьца перед царскими окошками. Тhe only meaning I can find for ‘buravchik’ is gimlet. That is not utterly impossible, but it surprises me. Can anyone suggest any other possible meanings? Thanks, in advance, Robert ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Tue Sep 14 19:11:27 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 15:11:27 -0400 Subject: Buravchik In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Robert Chandler wrote: > Dear all, > > In ‘Tsar’-chernoknizhnik’, from Ozhegov’s SEVERNYE SKAZKI, the hero, after > transforming himself into a number of different wild animals, in order to > hide from the evil tsar, бегал, бегал, прибежал перед царски окошки, > овернулся золотым буравчиком и начал кататьца перед царскими окошками. > > Тhe only meaning I can find for ‘buravchik’ is gimlet. That is not utterly > impossible, but it surprises me. Can anyone suggest any other possible > meanings? You might look through these: Some of the later hits might be useful. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ozaslav at ALUMNI.UPENN.EDU Tue Sep 14 20:31:44 2010 From: ozaslav at ALUMNI.UPENN.EDU (Olga Zaslavsky) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 20:31:44 +0000 Subject: ACLS Fellowships and Grants in East European Studies in academic year 2010-11 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Olga,Do these fellowships exclude scholars working on material related to Russia?Many thanks,Olga Zaslavsky, PhD > Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 10:35:47 -0400 > From: obukhina at ACLS.ORG > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] ACLS Fellowships and Grants in East European Studies in academic year 2010-11 > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > The American Council of Learned Societies announces > Fellowships and Grants in East European Studies > In academic year 2010-11 > > For research and language training related to Albania, Bosnia and > Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, > Kosovo/a, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Poland, Romania, > Serbia, Slovakia, and Slovenia > > Funding is provided by the U.S. Department of State under the Research > and Training for Eastern Europe and the Independent States of the Former > Soviet Union Act of 1983, as amended (Title VIII). > > All applicants must be U.S. citizens or permanent residents. > > Dissertation fellowships (deadline: November 10, 2010) For graduate > students at U.S. universities who have completed all requirements for > the Ph.D. except the dissertation (ABDs). Applicants can apply for > research fellowships for use in Eastern Europe or for writing > fellowships for completing the dissertation outside of Eastern Europe > after research is complete. > > Early career postdoctoral fellowships (deadline: November 10, 2010) For > scholars before tenure, including independent scholars. > > Language grants to institutions (deadline: January 14, 2011) For U.S. > institutions of higher education to conduct intensive summer language > courses at the beginning, intermediate, and advanced-mastery levels. > > Language grants to individuals (deadline: January 14, 2011) For > attendance at intensive summer language courses (priority given to > graduate students seeking to acquire the language as a basic research > tool). > > Travel grants (deadline: January 28, 2011) For travel to conferences to > present research papers (all academic ranks). > > Conference grants (deadline: January 28, 2011) To support planning > workshops and conferences for the presentation of significant new > research. > > Request for proposals for research on heritage speakers (deadline: > January 14, 2011) Individuals or collaborative teams are invited to > propose socio-linguistic research on U.S. communities of heritage > speakers of an East European language. The project should produce an > analytical paper and a syllabus for an advanced-mastery course for > heritage speakers to bring their language competence to a professional > level. > > Further information is available at http://www.acls.org/programs/eesp > American Council of Learned Societies > 633 Third Avenue, New York, NY 10017-6795, www.acls.org > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From obukhina at ACLS.ORG Tue Sep 14 20:31:34 2010 From: obukhina at ACLS.ORG (Olga Bukhina) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 16:31:34 -0400 Subject: ACLS Fellowships and Grants in East European Studies in academic year 2010-11 In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: Alas, Russia is not on the list of the eligible countries. Olga Bukhina American Council of Learned Societies E-mail: obukhina at acls.org www.acls.org -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Olga Zaslavsky Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 4:32 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] ACLS Fellowships and Grants in East European Studies in academic year 2010-11 Dear Olga,Do these fellowships exclude scholars working on material related to Russia?Many thanks,Olga Zaslavsky, PhD > Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 10:35:47 -0400 > From: obukhina at ACLS.ORG > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] ACLS Fellowships and Grants in East European Studies in academic year 2010-11 > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > The American Council of Learned Societies announces > Fellowships and Grants in East European Studies > In academic year 2010-11 > > For research and language training related to Albania, Bosnia and > Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, > Kosovo/a, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Poland, Romania, > Serbia, Slovakia, and Slovenia > > Funding is provided by the U.S. Department of State under the Research > and Training for Eastern Europe and the Independent States of the Former > Soviet Union Act of 1983, as amended (Title VIII). > > All applicants must be U.S. citizens or permanent residents. > > Dissertation fellowships (deadline: November 10, 2010) For graduate > students at U.S. universities who have completed all requirements for > the Ph.D. except the dissertation (ABDs). Applicants can apply for > research fellowships for use in Eastern Europe or for writing > fellowships for completing the dissertation outside of Eastern Europe > after research is complete. > > Early career postdoctoral fellowships (deadline: November 10, 2010) For > scholars before tenure, including independent scholars. > > Language grants to institutions (deadline: January 14, 2011) For U.S. > institutions of higher education to conduct intensive summer language > courses at the beginning, intermediate, and advanced-mastery levels. > > Language grants to individuals (deadline: January 14, 2011) For > attendance at intensive summer language courses (priority given to > graduate students seeking to acquire the language as a basic research > tool). > > Travel grants (deadline: January 28, 2011) For travel to conferences to > present research papers (all academic ranks). > > Conference grants (deadline: January 28, 2011) To support planning > workshops and conferences for the presentation of significant new > research. > > Request for proposals for research on heritage speakers (deadline: > January 14, 2011) Individuals or collaborative teams are invited to > propose socio-linguistic research on U.S. communities of heritage > speakers of an East European language. The project should produce an > analytical paper and a syllabus for an advanced-mastery course for > heritage speakers to bring their language competence to a professional > level. > > Further information is available at http://www.acls.org/programs/eesp > American Council of Learned Societies > 633 Third Avenue, New York, NY 10017-6795, www.acls.org > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kuchar at ROANOKE.EDU Tue Sep 14 23:01:10 2010 From: kuchar at ROANOKE.EDU (Kuchar, Martha) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 19:01:10 -0400 Subject: No subject In-Reply-To: <243034.56956.qm@web50607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The Evpatoria that's in Crimea? If so, we should note: Crimea is part of Ukraine, the presence of the Russian fleet notwithstanding. -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of B. Shir Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 12:10 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] Dear  Seelangers,  a man came to my department yesterday, and brought his play, actually, a comedy: Александр  Чаглай, СЫГРАЕМ     ПРЕЗИДЕНТА.it is in Russian, of course, and I managed to convert his files into MS Word documents. If you are interested to read  the play - please contact me at redorbrown at yahoo.com. He wants his play to be staged, or translated, or just reviewed by a specialist. Oh, I forgot to mention that he is visiting his daughter here in Chicago and his flight back to Russia, Evpatoria is scheduled on Sept.30 but he will have access to email. He is desperate, he needs help, and, most importantly, the play IS FUNNY!!! Upon your request and his permission I will be able to provide you also with his phone number in Chicago. Hope to hear from you! Liza Ginzburg --- On Mon, 9/13/10, Kaiser-Chen, Aaron wrote: From: Kaiser-Chen, Aaron Subject: files To: redorbrown at yahoo.com Date: Monday, September 13, 2010, 3:56 PM Hi Professor Ginzburg,   Here are the files from Rudolph’s CD. I tried opening them and they come out as nonsense (or mojibake/krakozyabry) I’m not sure how to fix this. I think this website may be able to fix the files, but I wouldn’t count on it: http://www.online-decoder.com/ I hope this is what he meant to give you. I’m so sorry to have bothered you with this. Thank you for your time, Aaron Kaiser-Chen ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From i.dembowska at GMAIL.COM Tue Sep 14 23:13:59 2010 From: i.dembowska at GMAIL.COM (Iwona Wosik) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 18:13:59 -0500 Subject: heritage speakers panel at AAASS 2010 convention - participants needed Message-ID: I am looking for participants for this year's AAASS convention in Los Angeles (November 18-21). The panel is about heritage speaker education (original title "Instructional Approaches to Heritage Classes"). Iwona Dembowska-Wosik Slavic Languages and Literatures Indiana University ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Wed Sep 15 00:28:01 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 20:28:01 -0400 Subject: No subject In-Reply-To: <8050525716FAE14286A6A148E1362BB74236C28CB1@EXCHANGE11.academic.roanoke.edu> Message-ID: Re: The Evpatoria that's in Crimea? If so, we should note: Crimea is part of Ukraine, the presence of the Russian fleet notwithstanding. Yea, sure, and it has, "of course" been always inalienably Ukrainian--the native Tatars, Greeks, the Qaraim, etc. notwithstanding! Come on, Martha! It does matter then HOW Crimea became part of Ukraine. The way has a lot to do with Russian, and then Soviet imperial policies! It may be more factually correct now to claim that Crimea is listed as part of Ukraine, but is that something for Ukrainians to be proud of, as a testimony of their independence from Russia? There was a person who not only learned about the history of the region, and of its Tatars' persecution. He was Ukrainian; his name was General Petro Grigorenko. He NEVER considered it honorable that the territory could be claimed by Ukrainians--no more than that it should be claimed by Russians. As for the Russian Black Sea fleet, it does have a history of presence in the Crimea, far preceding the Soviet Union, or the so-called new, Soviet russian domination in the area. Catherine was no angel but the fleet was hers! , ! not that of Ukrainians. The way she dealt with the Zaporozhye cossacks was pretty authoritarian and nothing to be proud of, but this has nothing to do with any rights for Ukraine to dominate over the Crimean peninsula itself. The territory and its history and multinational culture is no more Ukrainian than it is Russian. Perhaps no less. But why pretend that Ukrainians have more of a right here? Just because they inherited this right from the Russian Empire--either pre- or post-Soviet? This may be correct, but in that case, there should be no moral ground to object to the presence of the Russian Black Sea Fleet there. Like General Grigorenko, I in no way support any Russian imperial ambitions but neither would I support anyone's attempts to replace these ambitions with their own. In any case, I am not an historian, but there is some info on the matter here: http://www.blacksea-crimea.com/history1.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pashuk at KNOLOGY.NET Wed Sep 15 02:52:03 2010 From: pashuk at KNOLOGY.NET (Oleg Pashuk) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 22:52:03 -0400 Subject: Buravchik Message-ID: gimlet {noun} буравчик {m} en.bab.la/dictionary/russian-english/буравчик ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Chandler" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 1:47 PM Subject: [SEELANGS] Buravchik Dear all, In ‘Tsar’-chernoknizhnik’, from Ozhegov’s SEVERNYE SKAZKI, the hero, after transforming himself into a number of different wild animals, in order to hide from the evil tsar, бегал, бегал, прибежал перед царски окошки, овернулся золотым буравчиком и начал кататьца перед царскими окошками. Тhe only meaning I can find for ‘buravchik’ is gimlet. That is not utterly impossible, but it surprises me. Can anyone suggest any other possible meanings? Thanks, in advance, Robert ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From redorbrown at YAHOO.COM Wed Sep 15 03:00:33 2010 From: redorbrown at YAHOO.COM (B. Shir) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 20:00:33 -0700 Subject: No subject In-Reply-To: <8050525716FAE14286A6A148E1362BB74236C28CB1@EXCHANGE11.academic.roanoke.edu> Message-ID: Yes, you are correct! --- On Tue, 9/14/10, Kuchar, Martha wrote: From: Kuchar, Martha Subject: [SEELANGS] To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Date: Tuesday, September 14, 2010, 6:01 PM The Evpatoria that's in Crimea? If so, we should note: Crimea is part of Ukraine, the presence of the Russian fleet notwithstanding. -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of B. Shir Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 12:10 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] Dear  Seelangers,  a man came to my department yesterday, and brought his play, actually, a comedy: Александр  Чаглай, СЫГРАЕМ     ПРЕЗИДЕНТА.it is in Russian, of course, and I managed to convert his files into MS Word documents. If you are interested to read  the play - please contact me at redorbrown at yahoo.com. He wants his play to be staged, or translated, or just reviewed by a specialist. Oh, I forgot to mention that he is visiting his daughter here in Chicago and his flight back to Russia, Evpatoria is scheduled on Sept.30 but he will have access to email. He is desperate, he needs help, and, most importantly, the play IS FUNNY!!! Upon your request and his permission I will be able to provide you also with his phone number in Chicago. Hope to hear from you! Liza Ginzburg --- On Mon, 9/13/10, Kaiser-Chen, Aaron wrote: From: Kaiser-Chen, Aaron Subject: files To: redorbrown at yahoo.com Date: Monday, September 13, 2010, 3:56 PM Hi Professor Ginzburg,   Here are the files from Rudolph’s CD. I tried opening them and they come out as nonsense (or mojibake/krakozyabry) I’m not sure how to fix this. I think this website may be able to fix the files, but I wouldn’t count on it: http://www.online-decoder.com/ I hope this is what he meant to give you. I’m so sorry to have bothered you with this. Thank you for your time,  Aaron Kaiser-Chen       ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription   options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at:                     http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription   options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at:                     http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Wed Sep 15 03:37:26 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 23:37:26 -0400 Subject: No subject In-Reply-To: <103765.46036.qm@web50601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear SEELANGSers, As Vitalii Chernetsky suggested, I should "have the decency to apologize" for my comment, to Martha, and the whole list. Perhaps I should. The only thing I don't understand is why I should have been ashamed of "invoking vsue [presumably meaning in vain?] the name of a great person from the dissident movement" (meaning Grigorenko, I presume, whom, by the way, I knew personally and was even his priest's wife, while having no honor of ever meeting Viralii Chernetsky or Martha). If the rest of you, my colleagues, find my letter to Martha offensive, please accept my apologies. And of course, I am asking Martha herself for forgiveness. I indeed did not mean anything ad hominem, as Vitaly has suspected. I am sorry if my argument about certain paradoxes in Crimea's history, and its historical-cultural independence from both Russia and Ukraine, could have been misconstrued as a personal offense. Please accept my apologies, all who feel offended. Here is Vitaly's letter to me. Althoug! h ! it was private, it urged me to apologize to the whole list, so I think the list deserves to know Vitaly's own stance on the matter: Dear Professor Meerson, It is highly inappropriate for you to launch into such ad hominem messages at fellow SEELANGS members. Dr. Kuchar only reminded the previous poster that Evpatoriia is now part of the state of Ukraine. Your logic in linking that with her allegedly "claiming Crimea for Ukrainians" is spurious and reprehensible. The poster in no way suggested that people other than ethnic Ukrainians "do not belong" in Crimea. And invoking vsue a great person from the history of the dissident movement--for shame! I hope you have the decency to apologize to Dr. Kuchar and the list for what you have done. Vitaly Chernetsky ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Philippe.FRISON at COE.INT Wed Sep 15 05:19:24 2010 From: Philippe.FRISON at COE.INT (FRISON Philippe) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 07:19:24 +0200 Subject: Crimea and inviolability of frontiers In-Reply-To: A<20100914202801.AFV22745@mstore-prod-2.pdc.uis.georgetown.edu> Message-ID: Notwithstanding Russians' nostalgy of the past, the fact Crimea belongs now to independant Ukraine is linked with the legal principles of territorial integrity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_integrity) and of inviolability of frontiers, reaffirmed in the 1975 Helsinki Final Act. These principles go contrary to the people's right to self-determination, but there has not been much efforts from Crimeans to independance so far. The countries which gained independance out of Yugoslavia learned dearly (and are still experiencing) the cost of challenging frontiers inherited from the past. True, Crimea became only recently part of Ukraine upon a Krushchev's decision. The problems of Abkhazia and Southern Ossetia show the whole complexity of such questions. But questioning these principles would just open another Pandora's box of territorial claims and human horrors. I doubt Russians would get more out of them than through difficult but patient moves for cooperation between Russia and its neighbour states... As an Alsatian at least I am much conscious of that... But of course Pushkin's "Bakhchisarayski fontan" is Russian (notwithstanding the title, which is half Turkic). Philippe Frison (Strasbourg, France) -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Olga Meerson Sent: Wednesday 15 September 2010 02:28 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] Re: The Evpatoria that's in Crimea? If so, we should note: Crimea is part of Ukraine, the presence of the Russian fleet notwithstanding. Yea, sure, and it has, "of course" been always inalienably Ukrainian--the native Tatars, Greeks, the Qaraim, etc. notwithstanding! Come on, Martha! It does matter then HOW Crimea became part of Ukraine. The way has a lot to do with Russian, and then Soviet imperial policies! It may be more factually correct now to claim that Crimea is listed as part of Ukraine, but is that something for Ukrainians to be proud of, as a testimony of their independence from Russia? There was a person who not only learned about the history of the region, and of its Tatars' persecution. He was Ukrainian; his name was General Petro Grigorenko. He NEVER considered it honorable that the territory could be claimed by Ukrainians--no more than that it should be claimed by Russians. As for the Russian Black Sea fleet, it does have a history of presence in the Crimea, far preceding the Soviet Union, or the so-called new, Soviet russian domination in the area. Catherine was no angel but the fleet was hers! , ! not that of Ukrainians. The way she dealt with the Zaporozhye cossacks was pretty authoritarian and nothing to be proud of, but this has nothing to do with any rights for Ukraine to dominate over the Crimean peninsula itself. The territory and its history and multinational culture is no more Ukrainian than it is Russian. Perhaps no less. But why pretend that Ukrainians have more of a right here? Just because they inherited this right from the Russian Empire--either pre- or post-Soviet? This may be correct, but in that case, there should be no moral ground to object to the presence of the Russian Black Sea Fleet there. Like General Grigorenko, I in no way support any Russian imperial ambitions but neither would I support anyone's attempts to replace these ambitions with their own. In any case, I am not an historian, but there is some info on the matter here: http://www.blacksea-crimea.com/history1.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Marit.Bjerkeng at HIFM.NO Wed Sep 15 07:42:37 2010 From: Marit.Bjerkeng at HIFM.NO (Marit Bjerkeng) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 09:42:37 +0200 Subject: SV: [SEELANGS] Buravchik In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Robert, in a Norwegian fairy-tale which is very similar, the boy transforms himself "lion, falcon and ant" - don't you think buravchik is some kind of insect? I have seen before that northern Russian tales in detail may resemble Norwegian ones. Have you looked it up for instance in Arkhangelsk'skij oblastnoj slovar'? Or contacted people up north - in the Dobrolyubov Library in Archangel? I think they will look it up for you: http://lib.aonb.ru/inetresurs.phtml?cid=60 Greetings from Marit, Norway Dosent i russisk Marit Bjerkeng Høgskolen i Finnmark N-9509 ALTA Professor of Russian Marit Bjerkeng Finnmark University College N-9509 ALTA Norway Tel. +47 78 45 02 60 Fax + 47 78 43 76 70 >>> Robert Chandler 14.09.2010 19:47 >>> Dear all, In ‘Tsar’-chernoknizhnik’, from Ozhegov’s SEVERNYE SKAZKI, the hero, after transforming himself into a number of different wild animals, in order to hide from the evil tsar, бегал, бегал, прибежал перед царски окошки, овернулся золотым буравчиком и начал кататьца перед царскими окошками. Тhe only meaning I can find for ‘buravchik’ is gimlet. That is not utterly impossible, but it surprises me. Can anyone suggest any other possible meanings? Thanks, in advance, Robert ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From chernev at MUOHIO.EDU Wed Sep 15 12:56:16 2010 From: chernev at MUOHIO.EDU (Chernetsky, Vitaly A. Dr.) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 08:56:16 -0400 Subject: The Crimean question Message-ID: Dear Professor Meerson, dear Colleagues, First, I am surprised that a private letter addressed to another person was forwarded to the list without first asking for my permission to do so. This too is a violation of rules of decorum. Second, as a native of the northern Black Sea coast region (specifically the city of Odes(s)a) and a Ukrainian person of multi-ethnic and multi-cultural background, I found the unprovoked lengthy outburst in Prof. Meerson's message last night personally hurtful. No one in Ukraine is waging a campaign of "claiming" Crimea for ethnic Ukrainians. On the contrary, the Crimean Tatar Mejlis and personally Mustafa Dzhemilev, another prominent dissident, have always been close allies of the pro-democracy movement in the entire Ukraine. It is Tsarist policies in the 19th century and, especially, the Stalinist deportations in the 1940s that disrupted the historically established ethnic makeup of Crimea. The Crimean Tatars, the Pontic Greeks, the Caraites, and the Krymchaks are the communities who! se rights have been abused. However, it is the fringe right-wing ethnic Russian extremists, urged by Luzhkov, Zatulin, and other unsavory characters from the Russian political establishment that have been stoking the tensions in Crimea in recent years; I certainly hope that Prof. Meerson would not want to be considered their ally. For those curious to learn more about the history of multicultural Crimea, I recommend the 2007 book by Gwendolyn Sasse, _The Crimea Question: Identity, Transition, and Conflict_--or the beautiful novel by Liudmila Ulitskaia, _Medea and Her Children_. There are also several excellent recent dissertations on Crimea (for instance, two at Columbia that I am personally aware of) that I hope will soon result in fruitful additions to our understanding of the dramatic past and the complicated present sociocultural situation on this peninsula. Sincerely, Vitaly Chernetsky ------------------------------------------------------------ Dr. Vitaly Chernetsky Associate Professor Dept. of German, Russian & East Asian Languages Director, Film Studies Program Miami University Oxford, OH 45056 tel. (513) 529-2515 fax (513) 529-2296 ------------------------------------------------------------ ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Olga Meerson [meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 11:37 PM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: [SEELANGS] Dear SEELANGSers, As Vitalii Chernetsky suggested, I should "have the decency to apologize" for my comment, to Martha, and the whole list. Perhaps I should. The only thing I don't understand is why I should have been ashamed of "invoking vsue [presumably meaning in vain?] the name of a great person from the dissident movement" (meaning Grigorenko, I presume, whom, by the way, I knew personally and was even his priest's wife, while having no honor of ever meeting Viralii Chernetsky or Martha). If the rest of you, my colleagues, find my letter to Martha offensive, please accept my apologies. And of course, I am asking Martha herself for forgiveness. I indeed did not mean anything ad hominem, as Vitaly has suspected. I am sorry if my argument about certain paradoxes in Crimea's history, and its historical-cultural independence from both Russia and Ukraine, could have been misconstrued as a personal offense. Please accept my apologies, all who feel offended. Here is Vitaly's letter to me. Althoug! h ! it was private, it urged me to apologize to the whole list, so I think the list deserves to know Vitaly's own stance on the matter: Dear Professor Meerson, It is highly inappropriate for you to launch into such ad hominem messages at fellow SEELANGS members. Dr. Kuchar only reminded the previous poster that Evpatoriia is now part of the state of Ukraine. Your logic in linking that with her allegedly "claiming Crimea for Ukrainians" is spurious and reprehensible. The poster in no way suggested that people other than ethnic Ukrainians "do not belong" in Crimea. And invoking vsue a great person from the history of the dissident movement--for shame! I hope you have the decency to apologize to Dr. Kuchar and the list for what you have done. Vitaly Chernetsky ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Wed Sep 15 14:18:23 2010 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 10:18:23 -0400 Subject: Crimea and inviolability of frontiers In-Reply-To: <42E8F3C1A8950C4DB7DFF5833AA7FAD103859E36@OBELIX.key.coe.int> Message-ID: Sep 15, 2010, в 1:19 AM, FRISON Philippe написал(а): > > > But of course Pushkin's "Bakhchisarayski fontan" is Russian > (notwithstanding the title, which is half Turkic). > and half French or Italian. Also "Skify" by Blok. Alina Israeli Associate Professor of Russian LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave. Washington DC 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From k2kingdom at GMAIL.COM Wed Sep 15 15:19:43 2010 From: k2kingdom at GMAIL.COM (Mark Kingdom) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 18:19:43 +0300 Subject: =?KOI8-R?Q?=C2=D9before_?= or after verb Message-ID: Hi all, I wrote the following sentence to a Russian friend of mine: Я купил бы эту вещь, но у меня нет денег. She replied, (quoting) "...using бы after the verb is lazy, as if you are giving yourself time to think of an excuse." She says it is better to use бы before the verb: Я бы купил эту вещь, но у меня нет денег. I was taught that you can say it either way. What *is* the difference in placement? Do you agree with my friend's statement? Thanks! Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From anne.o.fisher at GMAIL.COM Wed Sep 15 15:27:01 2010 From: anne.o.fisher at GMAIL.COM (Anne Fisher) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 08:27:01 -0700 Subject: =?KOI8-R?Q?=C2=D9before_?= or after verb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Mark, If you are looking at the question from a descriptive rather than a proscriptive stance, then here is one well-known example to tally on the side of "verb-by" placement: in The Twelve Chairs, Ostap Bender says wistfully, "Nabil by ia tebe rylo, tol'ko Zaratustra ne pozvoliaiet." All the best, Annie 2010/9/15 Mark Kingdom : > Hi all, > > I wrote the following sentence to a Russian friend of mine: > > Я купил бы эту вещь, но у меня нет денег. > > She replied, (quoting) "...using бы after the verb is lazy, as if you are > giving yourself time to think of an excuse." > > She says it is better to use бы before the verb: Я бы купил эту вещь, но у > меня нет денег. > > I was taught that you can say it either way. What *is* the difference in > placement? Do you agree with my friend's statement? > > Thanks! > > Mark > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >  Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >  options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >                    http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Anne O. Fisher, Ph.D. Russian Interpreter and Translator anne.o.fisher at gmail.com 440-986-0175 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Wed Sep 15 15:35:39 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 16:35:39 +0100 Subject: =?KOI8-R?Q?=C2=D9before_?= or after verb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I was taught to place it before the verb. Я бы хотела... I believe the relevant examples are in Golosa Book 2. PS: is there a second edition of Golosa book 2 out there? I knew there was a second edition for the first one. ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ 2010/9/15 Anne Fisher > Hello Mark, > > If you are looking at the question from a descriptive rather than a > proscriptive stance, then here is one well-known example to tally on > the side of "verb-by" placement: in The Twelve Chairs, Ostap Bender > says wistfully, "Nabil by ia tebe rylo, tol'ko Zaratustra ne > pozvoliaiet." > > All the best, > > Annie > > > 2010/9/15 Mark Kingdom : > > Hi all, > > > > I wrote the following sentence to a Russian friend of mine: > > > > Я купил бы эту вещь, но у меня нет денег. > > > > She replied, (quoting) "...using бы after the verb is lazy, as if you are > > giving yourself time to think of an excuse." > > > > She says it is better to use бы before the verb: Я бы купил эту вещь, но > у > > меня нет денег. > > > > I was taught that you can say it either way. What *is* the difference in > > placement? Do you agree with my friend's statement? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Mark > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > -- > Anne O. Fisher, Ph.D. > Russian Interpreter and Translator > anne.o.fisher at gmail.com > 440-986-0175 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From brewerm at U.LIBRARY.ARIZONA.EDU Wed Sep 15 15:41:48 2010 From: brewerm at U.LIBRARY.ARIZONA.EDU (Brewer, Michael) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 08:41:48 -0700 Subject: =?koi8-r?Q?=C2=D9before_?= or after verb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If you put the subject after the verb or remove it entirely (so it is just assumed), бы would have to come after the verb though, right? Michael Brewer University of Arizona Libraries brewerm at u.library.arizona.edu -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Stephanie Briggs Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 8:36 AM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] бы before or after verb I was taught to place it before the verb. Я бы хотела... I believe the relevant examples are in Golosa Book 2. PS: is there a second edition of Golosa book 2 out there? I knew there was a second edition for the first one. ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ 2010/9/15 Anne Fisher > Hello Mark, > > If you are looking at the question from a descriptive rather than a > proscriptive stance, then here is one well-known example to tally on > the side of "verb-by" placement: in The Twelve Chairs, Ostap Bender > says wistfully, "Nabil by ia tebe rylo, tol'ko Zaratustra ne > pozvoliaiet." > > All the best, > > Annie > > > 2010/9/15 Mark Kingdom : > > Hi all, > > > > I wrote the following sentence to a Russian friend of mine: > > > > Я купил бы эту вещь, но у меня нет денег. > > > > She replied, (quoting) "...using бы after the verb is lazy, as if you are > > giving yourself time to think of an excuse." > > > > She says it is better to use бы before the verb: Я бы купил эту вещь, но > у > > меня нет денег. > > > > I was taught that you can say it either way. What *is* the difference in > > placement? Do you agree with my friend's statement? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Mark > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > -- > Anne O. Fisher, Ph.D. > Russian Interpreter and Translator > anne.o.fisher at gmail.com > 440-986-0175 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Wed Sep 15 15:53:34 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 16:53:34 +0100 Subject: =?KOI8-R?Q?=C2=D9before_?= or after verb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There's a construction (Golosa 2 again? maybe V Puti!) where you put бы after the verb, and the way I memorized it was as follows: *Verb....бы....rest of sentence. * ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ 2010/9/15 Brewer, Michael > If you put the subject after the verb or remove it entirely (so it is just > assumed), бы would have to come after the verb though, right? > > Michael Brewer > University of Arizona Libraries > brewerm at u.library.arizona.edu > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list > [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Stephanie Briggs > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 8:36 AM > To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] бы before or after verb > > I was taught to place it before the verb. Я бы хотела... I believe the > relevant examples are in Golosa Book 2. > > PS: is there a second edition of Golosa book 2 out there? I knew there was > a > second edition for the first one. > > > > ***************************** > ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs > http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ > > Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! > THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! > http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ > > > > > 2010/9/15 Anne Fisher > > > Hello Mark, > > > > If you are looking at the question from a descriptive rather than a > > proscriptive stance, then here is one well-known example to tally on > > the side of "verb-by" placement: in The Twelve Chairs, Ostap Bender > > says wistfully, "Nabil by ia tebe rylo, tol'ko Zaratustra ne > > pozvoliaiet." > > > > All the best, > > > > Annie > > > > > > 2010/9/15 Mark Kingdom : > > > Hi all, > > > > > > I wrote the following sentence to a Russian friend of mine: > > > > > > Я купил бы эту вещь, но у меня нет денег. > > > > > > She replied, (quoting) "...using бы after the verb is lazy, as if you > are > > > giving yourself time to think of an excuse." > > > > > > She says it is better to use бы before the verb: Я бы купил эту вещь, > но > > у > > > меня нет денег. > > > > > > I was taught that you can say it either way. What *is* the difference > in > > > placement? Do you agree with my friend's statement? > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Anne O. Fisher, Ph.D. > > Russian Interpreter and Translator > > anne.o.fisher at gmail.com > > 440-986-0175 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Wed Sep 15 16:01:34 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 12:01:34 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?=D0=B1=D1=8Bbefore_?= or after verb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Brewer, Michael wrote: > If you put the subject after the verb or remove it entirely (so it is > just assumed), бы would have to come after the verb though, right? There does seem to be prohibition on «бы» in initial position: «Хотелось бы...», not *«Бы хотелось...». -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From john at RUSLAN.CO.UK Wed Sep 15 16:49:12 2010 From: john at RUSLAN.CO.UK (John Langran) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 17:49:12 +0100 Subject: =?KOI8-R?Q?=C2=D9_before_or_after_verb_/_=C2=D9=D4_=D8/_?= complex sentences Message-ID: But бы cannot be placed before быть, I suppose: Он был бы рад, в огонь и в дым, за вас погибнуть дважды... What I am not sure of is whether the order is possibly optional in the second part of a complex sentence with two "бы" s? Если бы она не вышда за него, она вышла бы за другого. or Если бы она не вышда за него, она бы вышла за другого. John Langran www.ruslan.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephanie Briggs" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] бы before or after verb I was taught to place it before the verb. Я бы хотела... I believe the relevant examples are in Golosa Book 2. PS: is there a second edition of Golosa book 2 out there? I knew there was a second edition for the first one. ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ 2010/9/15 Anne Fisher > Hello Mark, > > If you are looking at the question from a descriptive rather than a > proscriptive stance, then here is one well-known example to tally on > the side of "verb-by" placement: in The Twelve Chairs, Ostap Bender > says wistfully, "Nabil by ia tebe rylo, tol'ko Zaratustra ne > pozvoliaiet." > > All the best, > > Annie > > > 2010/9/15 Mark Kingdom : > > Hi all, > > > > I wrote the following sentence to a Russian friend of mine: > > > > Я купил бы эту вещь, но у меня нет денег. > > > > She replied, (quoting) "...using бы after the verb is lazy, as if you > > are > > giving yourself time to think of an excuse." > > > > She says it is better to use бы before the verb: Я бы купил эту вещь, но > у > > меня нет денег. > > > > I was taught that you can say it either way. What *is* the difference in > > placement? Do you agree with my friend's statement? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Mark > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > -- > Anne O. Fisher, Ph.D. > Russian Interpreter and Translator > anne.o.fisher at gmail.com > 440-986-0175 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sgnillib at GMAIL.COM Wed Sep 15 16:50:16 2010 From: sgnillib at GMAIL.COM (Loren Billings) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 00:50:16 +0800 Subject: =?KOI8-R?Q?=C2=D9before_?= or after verb In-Reply-To: <4C90EDDE.5080308@pbg-translations.com> Message-ID: Here's a classic example of the need for more linguistic training out there: _бы_ is a clitic. As such, it can be placed after the first phonological word or after the verb. If the verb happens to be the first phonological word, then there really isn't any choice. Thus: Я купил бы ... Я бы купил ... Хотелось бы ... *Бы хотелось ... This is probably why you don't see capitalized _Бы_! The positioning (and capitalization) of Y/N-interrogative _ли_ is the same. And if, you might ask, what the relative order of the two clitics is if they co-occur, see my Gmail address! -- Loren A. Billings, Ph.D. Associate professor of linguistics Department of Foreign Languages and Literature National Chi Nan University Puli, Nantou County 545 Taiwan ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ewb2 at CORNELL.EDU Wed Sep 15 17:28:59 2010 From: ewb2 at CORNELL.EDU (E Wayles Browne) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 13:28:59 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1251?Q?=E1=FB_before_or_after_verb_/_=E1=FB=F2__=FC/_?= complex sentences In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, Google shows millions of On byl by and millions of On by byl (really when you look at all the examples, there are 505 instances of On byl by and 446 of On by byl). So seemingly both are possible. -- Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics Department of Linguistics Morrill Hall 220, Cornell University Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A. tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h) fax 607-255-2044 (write FOR W. BROWNE) e-mail ewb2 at cornell.edu ________________________________ From: John Langran Reply-To: "SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list" Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 12:49:12 -0400 To: Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] бы before or after verb / быт ь / complex sentences But бы cannot be placed before быть, I suppose: Он был бы рад, в огонь и в дым, за вас погибнуть дважды... What I am not sure of is whether the order is possibly optional in the second part of a complex sentence with two "бы" s? Если бы она не вышда за него, она вышла бы за другого. or Если бы она не вышда за него, она бы вышла за другого. John Langran www.ruslan.co.uk ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From k2kingdom at GMAIL.COM Wed Sep 15 17:37:37 2010 From: k2kingdom at GMAIL.COM (Mark Kingdom) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 20:37:37 +0300 Subject: =?KOI8-R?Q?=C2=D9_before_or_after_verb_/_=C2=D9=D4_=D8/_?= complex sentences In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't like relying on google for these sorts of issues because it doesn't answer the heart of the question, in this case: *Is there a *difference* to the ear of a native speaker?* Is there an actual difference in meaning? Is there (as my native speaking friend suggested) a feel of "laziness" in one version? So much more reliable to ask a panel of native speaking experts (my beloved SEELANGS group), than relying on cold, heartless, number-crunching google. Mark 2010/9/15 E Wayles Browne > Well, Google shows millions of On byl by and millions of On by byl > (really when you look at all the examples, there are 505 instances of On > byl by and 446 of On by byl). > So seemingly both are possible. > > > -- > Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics > Morrill Hall 220, Cornell University > Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A. > > tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h) > fax 607-255-2044 (write FOR W. BROWNE) > e-mail ewb2 at cornell.edu > > ________________________________ > From: John Langran > Reply-To: "SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list" > > Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 12:49:12 -0400 > To: > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] бы before or after verb / быт ь / complex sentences > > But бы cannot be placed before быть, I suppose: > > Он был бы рад, в огонь и в дым, > за вас погибнуть дважды... > > What I am not sure of is whether the order is possibly optional in the > second part of a complex sentence with two "бы" s? > Если бы она не вышда за него, она вышла бы за другого. > or > Если бы она не вышда за него, она бы вышла за другого. > > John Langran > www.ruslan.co.uk > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From maureen.riley at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Sep 15 17:45:46 2010 From: maureen.riley at US.ARMY.MIL (Riley, Maureen Ms CIV USA DLI-W) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 13:45:46 -0400 Subject: =?koi8-r?Q?=C2=D9before_?= or after verb (UNCLASSIF IED) In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Google also registers/counts errors, grammatical and otherwise. Yet another reason not to consider it authoritative in any way. I'm glad the questioner repeated his question: the discussion that followed the original posting seems to have missed it entirely. mr -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Kingdom Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 1:38 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] бы before or after verb / быт ь / complex sentences I don't like relying on google for these sorts of issues because it doesn't answer the heart of the question, in this case: *Is there a *difference* to the ear of a native speaker?* Is there an actual difference in meaning? Is there (as my native speaking friend suggested) a feel of "laziness" in one version? So much more reliable to ask a panel of native speaking experts (my beloved SEELANGS group), than relying on cold, heartless, number-crunching google. Mark 2010/9/15 E Wayles Browne > Well, Google shows millions of On byl by and millions of On by byl > (really when you look at all the examples, there are 505 instances of > On byl by and 446 of On by byl). > So seemingly both are possible. > > > -- > Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics Department of Linguistics > Morrill Hall 220, Cornell University Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A. > > tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h) fax 607-255-2044 (write FOR W. > BROWNE) e-mail ewb2 at cornell.edu > > ________________________________ > From: John Langran > Reply-To: "SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list" > > Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 12:49:12 -0400 > To: > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] бы before or after verb / быт ь / complex > sentences > > But бы cannot be placed before быть, I suppose: > > Он был бы рад, в огонь и в дым, > за вас погибнуть дважды... > > What I am not sure of is whether the order is possibly optional in the > second part of a complex sentence with two "бы" s? > Если бы она не вышда за него, она вышла бы за другого. > or > Если бы она не вышда за него, она бы вышла за другого. > > John Langran > www.ruslan.co.uk > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web > Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sarahhurst at ALASKA.NET Wed Sep 15 21:09:49 2010 From: sarahhurst at ALASKA.NET (sarah hurst) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 13:09:49 -0800 Subject: =?KOI8-R?Q?=C2=D9before_?= or after verb (UNCLASSIF IED) In-Reply-To: <4AC510E9E66C994AA255358485FE78C6B3971A@DAHQ110BEPNT016.dahq.ds.army.mil> Message-ID: Is it just my imagination or is "on by byl" more difficult to pronounce than "on byl by"? Sarah Hurst ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Wed Sep 15 21:41:48 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 17:41:48 -0400 Subject: =?KOI8-R?Q?=C2=D9before_?= or after verb (UNCLASSIF IED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sarah Hurst wrote: > Is it just my imagination or is "on by byl" more difficult to > pronounce than "on byl by"? On objective grounds (mechanically speaking), I'd say neither is especially more difficult than the other. Prosodically, two adjacent stresses might require a bit of a pause (он... былбы), but I don't think that rises to the level of "difficulty." In terms of point of articulation, an English speaker might want to assimilate the alveolar nasal to the following bilabial, but that applies equally to both. But anything you've practiced for many years will seem easier to rattle off automatically than something you just do occasionally. So if your habit favors one of the options, that one will seem easier. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From oothappam at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Sep 16 01:03:07 2010 From: oothappam at EARTHLINK.NET (oothappam) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 18:03:07 -0700 Subject: recipe ingredient question "=?UTF-8?Q?=D1=81=D0=BE=D0=BB=D0=BE=D0=B4=22?= Message-ID: Here's the recipe for some rye bread. One thing I don't know about is солод.Does anyone here know what it is, and what I could use instead of it,if it's something unattainable in the US? My dictionary says "malt". I have not seen malt in any market here. Here's the recipe: рецепт ржаного хлеба 1. сухие дрожи 2 чайные ложки (ч.л.) 2. пшеничная мука 225 грамм 3. ржаная мука 325 грамм 4. соль 1,5 ч.л. 5. солод 4 столовых ложки (ст.л.) 6. кипяток 80 грамм 7. кориандр 1 ч.л. 8. вода 330 грамм солод залить кипятком, дать остыть и добавить к остальным ингредиентам. --- Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. -Nola ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rifkin at TCNJ.EDU Thu Sep 16 01:10:06 2010 From: rifkin at TCNJ.EDU (Benjamin Rifkin) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 21:10:06 -0400 Subject: Spellcheck for Word Windows and Mac Message-ID: Dear SEELANGers: If you use Russian spellcheck in Word for Windows or Mac platform and like your spellcheck program, could you please say what you're using and where you got it? I myself use Mac but I have students who are Mac and Windows users. Thanks for your recommendations. Sincerely, Ben Rifkin The College of New Jersey ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Thu Sep 16 02:23:26 2010 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 22:23:26 -0400 Subject: recipe ingredient question "=?KOI8-R?Q?=D3=CF_=CC=CF=C4=22?= In-Reply-To: <11641020.1284598988037.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I could not find солод, but I could find malts: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=malts&x=0&y=0 Sep 15, 2010, в 9:03 PM, oothappam написал(а): > Here's the recipe for some rye bread. One thing I don't know about > is солод.Does anyone here know what it is, and what I could use > instead of it,if it's something unattainable in the US? My > dictionary says "malt". I have not seen malt in any market here. > Here's the recipe: > рецепт ржаного хлеба > > 1. сухие дрожи 2 чайные ложки (ч.л.) > 2. пшеничная мука 225 грамм > 3. ржаная мука 325 грамм > 4. соль 1,5 ч.л. > 5. солод 4 столовых ложки (ст.л.) > 6. кипяток 80 грамм > 7. кориандр 1 ч.л. > 8. вода 330 грамм > > солод залить кипятком, дать остыть и добавить к остальным > ингредиентам. > --- > Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. > -Nola Alina Israeli Associate Professor of Russian LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave. Washington DC 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From franssuasso at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 16 08:57:51 2010 From: franssuasso at HOTMAIL.COM (Frans Suasso) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 10:57:51 +0200 Subject: Spellcheck for Word Windows and Mac In-Reply-To: <2092833782.5381061284599406885.JavaMail.root@zcs.TCNJ.EDU> Message-ID: Op 16-9-2010 3:10, Benjamin Rifkin schreef: > Dear SEELANGers: > > > If you use Russian spellcheck in Word for Windows or Mac platform and like your spellcheck program, could you please say what you're using and where you got it? > > > I myself use Mac but I have students who are Mac and Windows users. > > > Thanks for your recommendations. > > > Sincerely, > > > Ben Rifkin > The College of New Jersey > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- For MS Word (Office) up to Word 2007 Orfo 9 is a very good spell checker. For Word 2010 you need Orfo 10, which was released in the first week of september. I bought my copy from Amazon germany (amazon.de) for about 50 euro. Orfo is the most used spellcheck program in Russia. However do not buy it in Russia, because it might work only with a Russian version of windows. Frans Suasso. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Thu Sep 16 09:06:00 2010 From: j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 10:06:00 +0100 Subject: =?koi8-r?Q?=C2=D9before_?= or after verb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In some informal varieties of Russian you can have your cake and eat it by placing бы [by] both after the first stressed word and after the verb: Я бы купил бы ... [Ja by kupil by]. To my non-native speaker's ear this repeated бы might be interpreted either as stressing the conditionality of the action or as an attempt to drag the sentence out and by so temporising gain time to think of an excuse. John Dunn. ______________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Kingdom [k2kingdom at GMAIL.COM] Sent: 15 September 2010 17:19 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] бы before or after verb Hi all, I wrote the following sentence to a Russian friend of mine: Я купил бы эту вещь, но у меня нет денег. She replied, (quoting) "...using бы after the verb is lazy, as if you are giving yourself time to think of an excuse." She says it is better to use бы before the verb: Я бы купил эту вещь, но у меня нет денег. I was taught that you can say it either way. What *is* the difference in placement? Do you agree with my friend's statement? Thanks! Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Thu Sep 16 10:20:15 2010 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 11:20:15 +0100 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?=D0=B1=D1=8Bbefore_?= or after verb In-Reply-To: <9B55785EA179DA42AAA6EA7F7DC9DB90A99E930A7D@CMS01.campus.gla.ac.uk> Message-ID: To my equally non-native ear there is also a question of contrastive emphasis within the sentence, i.e. is the emphasis on the subject or the predicate On 16/09/2010 10:06, John Dunn wrote: > In some informal varieties of Russian you can have your cake and eat it by placing �� [by] both after the first stressed word and after the verb: � �� ����� �� ... [Ja by kupil by]. To my non-native speaker's ear this repeated �� might be interpreted either as stressing the conditionality of the action or as an attempt to drag the sentence out and by so temporising gain time to think of an excuse. > > John Dunn. > > ______________________ > From: SEELANGS: Slavic& East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Kingdom [k2kingdom at GMAIL.COM] > Sent: 15 September 2010 17:19 > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: [SEELANGS] �� before or after verb > > Hi all, > > I wrote the following sentence to a Russian friend of mine: > > � ����� �� ��� ����, �� � ���� ��� �����. > > She replied, (quoting) "...using �� after the verb is lazy, as if you are > giving yourself time to think of an excuse." > > She says it is better to use �� before the verb: � �� ����� ��� ����, �� � > ���� ��� �����. > > I was taught that you can say it either way. What *is* the difference in > placement? Do you agree with my friend's statement? > > Thanks! > > Mark > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From erofeev at EU.SPB.RU Thu Sep 16 11:07:42 2010 From: erofeev at EU.SPB.RU (Sergei Erofeev) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 15:07:42 +0400 Subject: 30 October 2010 - IMARES deadline: Russian and Eurasian Studies in St. Petersburg In-Reply-To: A<4321F8C61926134F91B4F485CD27C7E9C15DFB@post.net.local> Message-ID: 30 October 2010 - IMARES deadline [Please respond to Sergey Erofeev (erofeev at eu.spb.ru)] ------------------------------- Dear colleagues, Here is a reminder that 30 October 2010 is the application deadline for the IMARES program (International MA in Russian and Eurasian Studies) at the European University at St. Petersburg: http://www.eu.spb.ru/imares. The next enrollment date is 1 February 2011. With its international MA programs, EUSP remains the only university in Russia and CIS providing full-fledged graduate experience in the medium of English to students mostly from the USA and the EU, but also from some other countries. IMARES concentrates not only on Russian history, politics, culture and society, but also on Central Asia, Tatarstan, the Caucasus, comparative capitalisms (Russia, Ukraine and Belorussia), energy politics, security, terrorism etc. The program runs for two semesters. Every semester there is a choice of 3 to 5 courses delivered in English out of the list of 8 credited courses. Those who wish to obtain our MA degree write a supervised dissertation (see http://www.eu.spb.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=165&Itemid=702). There is no language prerequisite whatsoever, but we do provide good quality Russian classes for those who want to master the language (4 levels from zero to advanced). There is no extra fee involved for the language classes. For those who have graduated from BA programs in languages and literature, IMARES provides the opportunity to broaden or change specialism. Our graduates have good Ph.D. and job prospects not only to do with Russian cultural studies, but generally with the best US and European departments of politics, history, sociology, anthropology etc.  Some prefer to go to business or civil service (Bloomberg, Shell, US State Department etc). Some of you may have heard that after the program was reformatted, the intake of IMARES students has tripled over the last year! We will stay at those numbers concentrating on high quality of teaching and learning. With best wishes, Dr. Sergey Erofeev (erofeev at eu.spb.ru) Director of International Programs European University at St. Petersburg Tel./fax +7 812 579 4402 Web: http://www.eu.spb.ru/international   ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From john.kopper at DARTMOUTH.EDU Thu Sep 16 11:23:12 2010 From: john.kopper at DARTMOUTH.EDU (John Kopper) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 06:23:12 -0500 Subject: Assistant Professor position at Dartmouth College Message-ID: Dartmouth College Russian Language and Literature, Hanover, New Hampshire, 03755 Assistant Professor of Russian: tenure-track. Applicants must have a Ph. D., a native or near-native command of Russian and English, and a demonstrable commitment to teaching, including language instruction. The successful candidate must be willing to lead the department's foreign study program in St. Petersburg on a regular basis. In addition to a firm grounding in Russian literature, we are interested in candidates with a strong interdisciplinary focus. Possible areas of expertise include folklore, cultural studies, the arts, socio-political contexts, or the non-Russian regions of the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. Send letter of application, current curriculum vitae, and three letters of reference to the following e- mail address: Russian.Search at Dartmouth.edu Alternatively, you may send these materials by surface mail to John M. Kopper, Search Committee Chair, Department of Russian Language and Literature, 6085 Reed Hall, Dartmouth College, Hanover, N.H. 03755. The deadline for receipt of all materials is December 1, 2010. Dartmouth College is an Affirmative Action/Equal Opportunity Employer. We are committed to fostering a diverse campus community, and welcome applications from members of under-represented groups. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From erofeev at EU.SPB.RU Thu Sep 16 11:30:11 2010 From: erofeev at EU.SPB.RU (Sergei Erofeev) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 15:30:11 +0400 Subject: USSR deadline of 30 October 2010: Undergraduate Spring Semester in Russia In-Reply-To: A<4321F8C61926134F91B4F485CD27C7E9C15DFB@post.net.local> Message-ID: USSR-St.Petersburg: Undergraduate Spring Semester in Russia 30 October 2010 - USSR deadline SEE: http://www.eu.spb.ru/semester [Please respond to Sergey Erofeev (erofeev at eu.spb.ru)] ------------------------------- Dear colleagues, We are happy to announce that following the successful experience of RSSA (Russian Studies Semester Abroad) the European University at St. Petersburg will repeat this program from 1 February 2011. It has been rebranded USSR (Undergraduate Spring Semester in Russia) and will be delivered to advanced undergraduates. As a BA study abroad module, USSR is finely tuned to the needs of undergrads. At the same time, it also brings the benefits of collaborating with the famous IMARES program (http://www.eu.spb.ru/imares) ***** 30 October 2010 is the application deadline for this program ******** MAIN FEATURES: ** Ideal for those who at the undergraduate level are seriously planning careers in relation to Russian and Eurasian affairs ** The program draws upon the resources of IMARES, the internationally renowned Master's program in Russian and Eurasian Studies (www.eu.spb.ru/imares) ** Professional academic training plus diverse personal experience of Russian society ** Courses include on-site classes in cultural and historical venues of Saint Petersburg, an international cultural hub WORKLOAD AND CREDITS ** Semester of 13-weeks, from 12 to 24 class hours per week The choice of 3 to 5 courses corresponding to 18 to 30 ECTS credits (9 to 15 US credits). ** Each subject course carries 6 ECTS credits (3 US credits) and is taught for 4 academic hours per week plus homework. Delivered through lectures and seminar sessions for which home reading is assigned, each course involves submitting one or two essays. ** Russian language is taught for 8 hours per week in groups corresponding to proficiency level. The course carries 12 ECTS credits (6 US credits). USSR COURSES ** History of the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union ** Russian Art from Icon to the Avant-garde ** Russian Society, Media and Culture ** Post-Soviet Political and Economic Transition ** Russian language LOGISTICS EUSP provides visa and registration support. It also helps to house international students in Russian families or to rent separate apartments. Students use the library, computer facilities and other university services. More information on EUSP student life: www.eu.spb.ru/StudentLife. The applicants to USSR (St. Petersburg) are expected to excel in their BA study at their home institution in one or more disciplines from a wide range of humanities, area/cultural studies or social sciences: from linguistics to history, from art history to journalism and from philosophy to sociology. There is no Russian language prerequisite as the main curriculum is taught in English. TO APPLY, GO TO www.eu.spb.ru/ussr/apply With best wishes, Dr. Sergey Erofeev (erofeev at eu.spb.ru) Director of International Programs European University at St. Petersburg Tel./fax +7 812 579 4402 Web: http://www.eu.spb.ru/international ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Thu Sep 16 11:53:00 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 12:53:00 +0100 Subject: Varykino in Doctor Zhivago - important or not? Message-ID: I was just reading the Wikipedia page on "Doctor Zhivago", and the admin there is proposing to delete the sub-article on Varykino, deeming it insignificant to warrant keeping it. I think it would be nice to keep the article because without Varykino (ie without the Zhivago family moving there), Zhivago and Lara wouldn't have met up again in the second part of the book. Thoughts? Wiki notes that "Yuriatin" was based on Perm, and Pasternak only changed the town's name but left the street names as they were in Perm. Does Varykino have a similar real-life inspiration? Thanks, Stephanie ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From oothappam at earthlink.net Thu Sep 16 14:15:34 2010 From: oothappam at earthlink.net (oothappam) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 07:15:34 -0700 Subject: thanks for the info about malt Message-ID: Thanks to everyone who responded on and off list. It seemed like something mysterious but now I understand what it is and think I can get it at the health food store in my city.If not, online. My daughter is going to make this rye bread using a bread machine! I'll let you know how it turns out. A friend in Moscow makes it in her machine and gave me that recipe. I don't know if the machines are the same size or not but it will be fun to experiment a little! This is such a nice, kind and resourceful group! Nola ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jwilson at SRAS.ORG Thu Sep 16 14:54:38 2010 From: jwilson at SRAS.ORG (Josh Wilson) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 18:54:38 +0400 Subject: Race in Russia Message-ID: Dear SEELANGERs, The School of Russian and Asian Studies has released its "heavy" back-to-school newsletter. This year, we focus on Race in Russia with three interviews from three "expat" ethnic minorities who have lived and worked in Moscow long-term. Each has a different story to tell from a different perspective. We have also a new article on the Chinese immigrant population in Vladivostok and two updated Library entries: Religion in Russia, and Central Asia (where most of Russia's sizeable immigrant population hails). In other sections, you'll find recipes for Kvass, YouTube videos for Russia's current top movies and music, and a new online test on cases in Russian (you can make an educator account with us and track how your students do!) We are also excited to announce that at long last our new site is online. Among other things, it offers a new program search engine to make browsing our highly varied and innovative study abroad programs easier. *Our latest newsletter: *Our program search engine: *Our new resources page (everything in one place): Our next newsletter issue will focus on translation as a profession! Subscriptions to the newsletter are free. Just click "subscribe" in the newsletter section of our homepage www.sras.org and fill out the tiny little form. Oh, and deadlines for our spring programs are coming up October 15th! Let your students know! Josh Wilson Assistant Director The School of Russian and Asian Studies Editor in Chief Vestnik, The Journal of Russian and Asian Studies SRAS.org jwilson at sras.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mdenner at STETSON.EDU Thu Sep 16 15:10:08 2010 From: mdenner at STETSON.EDU (Michael Denner) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 11:10:08 -0400 Subject: Spellcheck for Word Windows and Mac In-Reply-To: <2092833782.5381061284599406885.JavaMail.root@zcs.TCNJ.EDU> Message-ID: Ben, There's a platform-neutral spellchecker integrated into translit.ru. Hit the орфография button there. I've found it to be quite good. My students have to use it before they turn in their compositions... ~mad ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*    Dr. Michael A. Denner    Associate Professor of Russian Studies    Editor, Tolstoy Studies Journal Director, Russian Studies Program    Director, University Honors Program       Contact Information:       Russian Studies Program       Stetson University       Campus Box 8361       DeLand, FL 32720-3756       386.822.7381 (department)       386.822.7265 (direct line)       386.822.7380 (fax)       google talk michaeladenner       www.stetson.edu/~mdenner -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Benjamin Rifkin Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 9:10 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] Spellcheck for Word Windows and Mac Dear SEELANGers: If you use Russian spellcheck in Word for Windows or Mac platform and like your spellcheck program, could you please say what you're using and where you got it? I myself use Mac but I have students who are Mac and Windows users. Thanks for your recommendations. Sincerely, Ben Rifkin The College of New Jersey ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rrobin at GWU.EDU Thu Sep 16 15:14:09 2010 From: rrobin at GWU.EDU (Richard Robin) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 11:14:09 -0400 Subject: Spellcheck for Word Windows and Mac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In Windows, using both Office 2007 and Office 2009, I use the Microsoft Russian pack. It is available through many Russian vendors (some of whom don't exactly... uh... vend.) It's also probably available on the Microsoft site, if not .com, then probably . ru. The Rusian language pack includes a spellchecker, a fairly useless grammar checker (it catches all the commas), synonyms and antonyms. -Rich Robin If you use Google docs or even Gmail, you can mark text as Russian and it will be checked. But Google docs produce lots of false positives. On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 4:57 AM, Frans Suasso wrote: > Op 16-9-2010 3:10, Benjamin Rifkin schreef: > > Dear SEELANGers: >> >> >> If you use Russian spellcheck in Word for Windows or Mac platform and like >> your spellcheck program, could you please say what you're using and where >> you got it? >> >> >> I myself use Mac but I have students who are Mac and Windows users. >> >> >> Thanks for your recommendations. >> >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> Ben Rifkin >> The College of New Jersey >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > For MS Word (Office) up to Word 2007 Orfo 9 is a very good spell checker. > For Word 2010 you need Orfo 10, which was released in the first week of > september. > I bought my copy from Amazon germany (amazon.de) for about 50 euro. > > Orfo is the most used spellcheck program in Russia. However do not buy it > in Russia, because it might work only with a Russian version of windows. > > > > Frans Suasso. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Richard M. Robin Director Russian Language Program The George Washington University Washington, DC 20052 202-994-7081 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Thu Sep 16 15:39:51 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:39:51 +0100 Subject: Spellcheck for Word Windows and Mac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Boy, I feel like a dinosaur. When I studied Russian for my BA (1999-2003), it all had to be handwritten so spelling mistakes were our own responsibility to check. Hail the humble ORD! ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ On 16 September 2010 16:10, Michael Denner wrote: > Ben, > There's a platform-neutral spellchecker integrated into translit.ru. Hit > the орфография button there. I've found it to be quite good. My students > have to use it before they turn in their compositions... > > ~mad > > ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* > Dr. Michael A. Denner > Associate Professor of Russian Studies > Editor, Tolstoy Studies Journal > Director, Russian Studies Program > Director, University Honors Program > > > Contact Information: > Russian Studies Program > Stetson University > Campus Box 8361 > DeLand, FL 32720-3756 > 386.822.7381 (department) > 386.822.7265 (direct line) > 386.822.7380 (fax) > > google talk michaeladenner > www.stetson.edu/~mdenner > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list > [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Benjamin Rifkin > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 9:10 PM > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: [SEELANGS] Spellcheck for Word Windows and Mac > > Dear SEELANGers: > > > If you use Russian spellcheck in Word for Windows or Mac platform and like > your spellcheck program, could you please say what you're using and where > you got it? > > > I myself use Mac but I have students who are Mac and Windows users. > > > Thanks for your recommendations. > > > Sincerely, > > > Ben Rifkin > The College of New Jersey > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Thu Sep 16 15:41:09 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:41:09 +0100 Subject: Spellcheck for Word Windows and Mac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have Word 2007 and Russian installed on my computer, but the Word Russian spellchecker refuses to work. Did I miss a step, or do I have to install something else from my Office 2007 CD-ROM? ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ On 16 September 2010 16:14, Richard Robin wrote: > In Windows, using both Office 2007 and Office 2009, I use the Microsoft > Russian pack. It is available through many Russian vendors (some of whom > don't exactly... uh... vend.) It's also probably available on the Microsoft > site, if not .com, then probably . ru. The Rusian language pack includes a > spellchecker, a fairly useless grammar checker (it catches all the commas), > synonyms and antonyms. > > -Rich Robin > > If you use Google docs or even Gmail, you can mark text as Russian and it > will be checked. But Google docs produce lots of false positives. > > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 4:57 AM, Frans Suasso >wrote: > > > Op 16-9-2010 3:10, Benjamin Rifkin schreef: > > > > Dear SEELANGers: > >> > >> > >> If you use Russian spellcheck in Word for Windows or Mac platform and > like > >> your spellcheck program, could you please say what you're using and > where > >> you got it? > >> > >> > >> I myself use Mac but I have students who are Mac and Windows users. > >> > >> > >> Thanks for your recommendations. > >> > >> > >> Sincerely, > >> > >> > >> Ben Rifkin > >> The College of New Jersey > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > > For MS Word (Office) up to Word 2007 Orfo 9 is a very good spell checker. > > For Word 2010 you need Orfo 10, which was released in the first week of > > september. > > I bought my copy from Amazon germany (amazon.de) for about 50 euro. > > > > Orfo is the most used spellcheck program in Russia. However do not buy > it > > in Russia, because it might work only with a Russian version of windows. > > > > > > > > Frans Suasso. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > -- > Richard M. Robin > Director Russian Language Program > The George Washington University > Washington, DC 20052 > 202-994-7081 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rrobin at GWU.EDU Thu Sep 16 16:21:48 2010 From: rrobin at GWU.EDU (Richard Robin) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 12:21:48 -0400 Subject: Simplified Russian news is back Message-ID: Dear All, The Simplified Russian News is back for a new academic year: http://nclrc.org/webcasts/russian/ Sincerely, Rich Robin -- Richard M. Robin Director Russian Language Program The George Washington University Washington, DC 20052 202-994-7081 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rrobin at GWU.EDU Thu Sep 16 16:29:47 2010 From: rrobin at GWU.EDU (Richard Robin) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 12:29:47 -0400 Subject: Spellcheck for Word Windows and Mac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: When "Russian is installed on the computer," does that mean that the computer has a Russian keyboard? Or does it mean that the Russian language module is installed for *Office*? These are two different things. Installing a Russian keyboard through Windows does not provide a Microsoft Office Russian spellchecker. One must download (or have the disk for) the Office 2007 Language Pack, which I think I found legally at http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/details.aspx?FamilyId=1F5C7D10-B4F9-482D-B0E5-9547A7F508E5&displaylang=en . On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Stephanie Briggs wrote: > I have Word 2007 and Russian installed on my computer, but the Word Russian > spellchecker refuses to work. Did I miss a step, or do I have to install > something else from my Office 2007 CD-ROM? > > ***************************** > ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs > http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ > > Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! > THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! > http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ > > > > > On 16 September 2010 16:14, Richard Robin wrote: > > > In Windows, using both Office 2007 and Office 2009, I use the Microsoft > > Russian pack. It is available through many Russian vendors (some of whom > > don't exactly... uh... vend.) It's also probably available on the > Microsoft > > site, if not .com, then probably . ru. The Rusian language pack includes > a > > spellchecker, a fairly useless grammar checker (it catches all the > commas), > > synonyms and antonyms. > > > > -Rich Robin > > > > If you use Google docs or even Gmail, you can mark text as Russian and it > > will be checked. But Google docs produce lots of false positives. > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 4:57 AM, Frans Suasso > >wrote: > > > > > Op 16-9-2010 3:10, Benjamin Rifkin schreef: > > > > > > Dear SEELANGers: > > >> > > >> > > >> If you use Russian spellcheck in Word for Windows or Mac platform and > > like > > >> your spellcheck program, could you please say what you're using and > > where > > >> you got it? > > >> > > >> > > >> I myself use Mac but I have students who are Mac and Windows users. > > >> > > >> > > >> Thanks for your recommendations. > > >> > > >> > > >> Sincerely, > > >> > > >> > > >> Ben Rifkin > > >> The College of New Jersey > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription > > >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface > at: > > >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > > > For MS Word (Office) up to Word 2007 Orfo 9 is a very good spell > checker. > > > For Word 2010 you need Orfo 10, which was released in the first week of > > > september. > > > I bought my copy from Amazon germany (amazon.de) for about 50 euro. > > > > > > Orfo is the most used spellcheck program in Russia. However do not > buy > > it > > > in Russia, because it might work only with a Russian version of > windows. > > > > > > > > > > > > Frans Suasso. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Richard M. Robin > > Director Russian Language Program > > The George Washington University > > Washington, DC 20052 > > 202-994-7081 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Richard M. Robin Director Russian Language Program The George Washington University Washington, DC 20052 202-994-7081 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From nsvobodn at ARTSCI.WUSTL.EDU Thu Sep 16 16:38:23 2010 From: nsvobodn at ARTSCI.WUSTL.EDU (Nicole Svobodny) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 11:38:23 -0500 Subject: Simplified Russian news is back In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Great! I use these web casts in my class, and was hoping they'd reappear. Thanks. On 9/16/2010 11:21 AM, Richard Robin wrote: > Dear All, > > The Simplified Russian News is back for a new academic year: > http://nclrc.org/webcasts/russian/ > > Sincerely, > Rich Robin > -- ******************** Nicole Svobodny, PhD Assistant Dean, College of Arts& Sciences Lecturer in Russian, International& Area Studies Washington University in St Louis Office: 257 McMillan Hall Office hours by appointment in online calendar: https://asapps.artsci.wustl.edu/appts/ password: svobodny Phone: (314) 935-7682 Mailing Address: International& Area Studies Box 1088 (for packages, instead use: 138 McMillan) One Brookings Drive Washington University St Louis, MO 63130-4899 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rmcleminson at POST.SK Thu Sep 16 10:27:32 2010 From: rmcleminson at POST.SK (R. M. Cleminson) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 12:27:32 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=D0=B1=D1=8Bbefore_?= or after verb In-Reply-To: <1334167620.126928.1284632532685.JavaMail.root@mbox01.in.post.sk> Message-ID: A quick look at the Russian National Corpus reveals 148 instances of купил/а/и бы and 73 of бы купил/а/и. If you want to do this properly, you will have to go through them and strip out instances of the former where the verb is the first word in the clause, and instances of the latter involving phrases such as вроде бы, будто бы etc. Then you will have material for comparison. Impressionistically (and waiting to be corrected), I would say the following. The enclitic бы forms a single prosodic unit with the preceding word, and its position is determined, like that of the preceding word, not only by grammatical considerations but by the intonational structure of the whole sentence. Consider: Я купил бы эту вещь, но мне дали бесплатно. Я бы купил эту вещь, но ее уже купила Ольга. In other words, I think it probable that there is a tendency (but not a rule) for бы to follow the word that bears the major stress in the clause. Unfortunately this is not a hypothesis that can readily be verified from written sources. It would be interesting to know whether any research has been done on it. Nevertheless, I think we can at least discount the theory that it depends on the laziness of the speaker. ----- Originálna správa ----- Odosielateľ: "Mark Kingdom" Komu: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Dátum: streda, september 15, 2010 04:19:43 Predmet: [SEELANGS] бы before or after verb Hi all, I wrote the following sentence to a Russian friend of mine: Я купил бы эту вещь, но у меня нет денег. She replied, (quoting) "...using бы after the verb is lazy, as if you are giving yourself time to think of an excuse." She says it is better to use бы before the verb: Я бы купил эту вещь, но у меня нет денег. I was taught that you can say it either way. What *is* the difference in placement? Do you agree with my friend's statement? Thanks! Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- _____________________________________________________________________ http://zajtrajsie.sme.sk - tipujte najblizsie sportove vysledky aj politicke udalosti ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From k2kingdom at GMAIL.COM Thu Sep 16 18:53:55 2010 From: k2kingdom at GMAIL.COM (Mark Kingdom) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 21:53:55 +0300 Subject: =?KOI8-R?Q?=C2=D9before_?= or after verb In-Reply-To: <1865196315.127213.1284632852189.JavaMail.root@mbox01.in.post.sk> Message-ID: What would be great is if some native Russian speakers chimed in. Because, although analysis by all the English speaking experts here is certainly helpful and interesting, the essential question is probably best addressed by native speakers, because of its subtlety: Do *native speakers* feel a difference in the word order? (Бы before vs after.) What's the difference in feel or meaning...to them? Mark On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 1:27 PM, R. M. Cleminson wrote: > A quick look at the Russian National Corpus reveals 148 instances of > купил/а/и бы and 73 of бы купил/а/и. > > If you want to do this properly, you will have to go through them and strip > out instances of the former where the verb is the first word in the clause, > and instances of the latter involving phrases such as вроде бы, будто бы > etc. Then you will have material for comparison. > > Impressionistically (and waiting to be corrected), I would say the > following. The enclitic бы forms a single prosodic unit with the preceding > word, and its position is determined, like that of the preceding word, not > only by grammatical considerations but by the intonational structure of the > whole sentence. > > Consider: > > Я купил бы эту вещь, но мне дали бесплатно. > > Я бы купил эту вещь, но ее уже купила Ольга. > > In other words, I think it probable that there is a tendency (but not a > rule) for бы to follow the word that bears the major stress in the clause. > Unfortunately this is not a hypothesis that can readily be verified from > written sources. It would be interesting to know whether any research has > been done on it. Nevertheless, I think we can at least discount the theory > that it depends on the laziness of the speaker. > > ----- Originálna správa ----- > Odosielateľ: "Mark Kingdom" > Komu: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Dátum: streda, september 15, 2010 04:19:43 > Predmet: [SEELANGS] бы before or after verb > > Hi all, > > I wrote the following sentence to a Russian friend of mine: > > Я купил бы эту вещь, но у меня нет денег. > > She replied, (quoting) "...using бы after the verb is lazy, as if you are > giving yourself time to think of an excuse." > > She says it is better to use бы before the verb: Я бы купил эту вещь, но у > меня нет денег. > > I was taught that you can say it either way. What *is* the difference in > placement? Do you agree with my friend's statement? > > Thanks! > > Mark > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _____________________________________________________________________ > > http://zajtrajsie.sme.sk - tipujte najblizsie sportove vysledky aj > politicke udalosti > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From redorbrown at YAHOO.COM Thu Sep 16 18:57:05 2010 From: redorbrown at YAHOO.COM (B. Shir) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 11:57:05 -0700 Subject: Fw: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: [SEELANGS] =?utf-8?Q?=D0=B1=D1=8Bbefore_?= or after verb]] Message-ID: I am posting this on behalf of Jerry Katsell: --- On Thu, 9/16/10, Jerome Katsell wrote: From: Jerome Katsell Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: [SEELANGS] бы before or after verb]] To: "Liza Ginzburg" Date: Thursday, September 16, 2010, 12:11 AM -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Fwd: [SEELANGS] бы before or after verb] Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 10:31:17 -0700 From: Jerome Katsell To: Mark Kingdom References: <4C90FF17.9020308 at roadrunner.com>                  Liza,               As a favor could you forward this message to SEELANGS.        I can read the site but they don't accept my messages. Thanks, Jerry.   I wanted to add this to the "beseda" about бы before or after the verb. Here are a couple of sextets from Pushkin's famous poem on insanity, beauty, the authoritarian state and freedom. "Не дай мне бог сойти с ума". Сould you possibly pass this on to the web site? ********************************************** Когда б оставили меня На воле, как бы резво я     Пустился в темный лес! Я пел бы в пламенном бреду, Я забывался бы в чаду     Нестройных, чудных грез. И я б заслушивался волн, И я глядел бы счастье полн,     В пустые небеса; И силен, волен был бы я, Как вихорь, роющий поля,     Ломающий леса. ********************************************** One might say, "well, this is poetry," but Pushkin in these iambic lines uses бы before and after the verb, in unstressed and stressed position. Thank you, Jerry Katsell -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [SEELANGS] бы before or after verb Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 18:19:43 +0300 From: Mark Kingdom Reply-To: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Hi all, I wrote the following sentence to a Russian friend of mine: Я купил бы эту вещь, но у меня нет денег. She replied, (quoting) "...using бы after the verb is lazy, as if you are giving yourself time to think of an excuse." She says it is better to use бы before the verb: Я бы купил эту вещь, но у меня нет денег. I was taught that you can say it either way. What *is* the difference in placement? Do you agree with my friend's statement? Thanks! Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3136 - Release Date: 09/15/10 06:34:00 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3136 - Release Date: 09/15/10 06:34:00 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From redorbrown at YAHOO.COM Thu Sep 16 19:15:11 2010 From: redorbrown at YAHOO.COM (B. Shir) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 12:15:11 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=D0=B1=D1=8B_before_or_after_verb=3A_=D0=9C_=D0=BD=D0=B5_=D0?= =?utf-8?Q?=B1=D1=8B_=D0=BA=D1=83=D1=80=D0=BE=D1=87=D0=BA=D1=83_=D0=B2_?= =?utf-8?Q?=D0=B2=D0=B8=D0=BD=D0=B5_=D0=B1=D1=8B...?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Mark,  I am not a linguist. Very subjectively, I would explain how I feel this difference: бы before a verb sounds "to me" like "ABSOLUTELY no way for this thing to happen": I recall the old play "Укрощение строптивой," по Шекспиру,  and the desperate song of the very very hungry heroine: Мне бы, мне бы, мне бы, мне-е бы.... Мне бы курочку в вине-е бы... This means:  Никакой курочки ей не светит!  1) Она бы съела хоть что-нибудь. No probability of eating.   2) Она съела бы  мяса (с большим удовольствием, чем сухой хлеб с водой). There is some probability of eating, at least. I hope this helps:) --- On Thu, 9/16/10, Mark Kingdom wrote: From: Mark Kingdom Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] бы before or after verb To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Date: Thursday, September 16, 2010, 1:53 PM What would be great is if some native Russian speakers chimed in. Because, although analysis by all the English speaking experts here is certainly helpful and interesting, the essential question is probably best addressed by native speakers, because of its subtlety: Do *native speakers* feel a difference in the word order? (Бы before vs after.) What's the difference in feel or meaning...to them? Mark On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 1:27 PM, R. M. Cleminson wrote: > A quick look at the Russian National Corpus reveals 148 instances of > купил/а/и бы and 73 of бы купил/а/и. > > If you want to do this properly, you will have to go through them and strip > out instances of the former where the verb is the first word in the clause, > and instances of the latter involving phrases such as вроде бы, будто бы > etc.  Then you will have material for comparison. > > Impressionistically (and waiting to be corrected), I would say the > following.  The enclitic бы forms a single prosodic unit with the preceding > word, and its position is determined, like that of the preceding word, not > only by grammatical considerations but by the intonational structure of the > whole sentence. > > Consider: > > Я купил бы эту вещь, но мне дали бесплатно. > > Я бы купил эту вещь, но ее уже купила Ольга. > > In other words, I think it probable that there is a tendency (but not a > rule) for бы to follow the word that bears the major stress in the clause. >  Unfortunately this is not a hypothesis that can readily be verified from > written sources.  It would be interesting to know whether any research has > been done on it.  Nevertheless, I think we can at least discount the theory > that it depends on the laziness of the speaker. > > ----- Originálna správa ----- > Odosielateľ: "Mark Kingdom" > Komu: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Dátum: streda, september 15, 2010 04:19:43 > Predmet: [SEELANGS] бы before or after verb > > Hi all, > > I wrote the following sentence to a Russian friend of mine: > > Я купил бы эту вещь, но у меня нет денег. > > She replied, (quoting) "...using бы after the verb is lazy, as if you are > giving yourself time to think of an excuse." > > She says it is better to use бы before the verb: Я бы купил эту вещь, но у > меня нет денег. > > I was taught that you can say it either way. What *is* the difference in > placement? Do you agree with my friend's statement? > > Thanks! > > Mark > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >  Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >  options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >                    http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _____________________________________________________________________ > > http://zajtrajsie.sme.sk - tipujte najblizsie sportove vysledky aj > politicke udalosti > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >  Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >  options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >                    http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription   options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at:                     http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bigjim at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Sep 16 19:26:29 2010 From: bigjim at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (augerot) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 12:26:29 -0700 Subject: =?KOI8-R?Q?=C2=D9before_?= or after verb In-Reply-To: <1865196315.127213.1284632852189.JavaMail.root@mbox01.in.post.sk> Message-ID: I really hope you are correct. This is what I have been telling my students for the last 40 years! And none of the natives I have discussed it with have seriously disagreed with this approach. jim james e. augerot ________________________________________________ director, ellison center chair, russian, east european and central asian studies 206-685-3113 treasurer, south east european studies association web denizen, On Thu, 16 Sep 2010, R. M. Cleminson wrote: A quick look at the Russian National Corpus reveals 148 instances of купил/а/и бы and 73 of бы купил/а/и. If you want to do this properly, you will have to go through them and strip out instances of the former where the verb is the first word in the clause, and instances of the latter involving phrases such as вроде бы, будто бы etc. Then you will have material for comparison. Impressionistically (and waiting to be corrected), I would say the following. The enclitic бы forms a single prosodic unit with the preceding word, and its position is determined, like that of the preceding word, not only by grammatical considerations but by the intonational structure of the whole sentence. Consider: Я купил бы эту вещь, но мне дали бесплатно. Я бы купил эту вещь, но ее уже купила Ольга. In other words, I think it probable that there is a tendency (but not a rule) for бы to follow the word that bears the major stress in the clause. Unfortunately this is not a hypothesis that can readily be verified from written sources. It would be interesting to know whether any research has been done on it. Nevertheless, I think we can at least discount the theory that it depends on the laziness of the speaker. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- _____________________________________________________________________ http://zajtrajsie.sme.sk - tipujte najblizsie sportove vysledky aj politicke udalosti ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 16 21:23:15 2010 From: anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM (anne marie devlin) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 22:23:15 +0100 Subject: [SEELA NGS] =?koi8-r?Q?=C2=D9be_?= fore or af ter verb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The field of linguistics and especially sociolinguistics seems to be severely underdeveloped in Russian. The subject of language use has come up many times on this list, but we don't appear to have experts. The answer to so many of these questions can only really be determined through extensive data collection - both written and spontaneous speech sources. What needs to be determined is the who, why , where and when of each variable. What I mean by that is to empirically determine the demographics (if appropriate) of the users of one variable vs another - age, gender, class, geographical location etc., the reason for chosing one - for emphasis, covert/overt prestige, the linguistic environment in which one is favoured and finally in which circumstances/occasions one is more prominent. Asking a panel of native speakers may not provide the answer as there is a well-known sociolinguistic phenomenon called the observer's paradox where speakers purport to use or not certain forms and this is not in anyway supported by empirical analysis of performance data. These are fascinating questions and we would benefit from any input from a sociolinguist as without it my I fear we might lose our minds - as perfectly summed up by the title of the Pushkin poem previously quoted: "Не дай мне бог сойти с ума". Anne Marie > Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 12:26:29 -0700 > From: bigjim at U.WASHINGTON.EDU > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] бы before or after verb > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > I really hope you are correct. This is what I have been telling my students for the last 40 years! And none of the natives I have discussed it with have seriously disagreed with this approach. > jim > > james e. augerot ________________________________________________ > director, ellison center > chair, russian, east european and central asian studies 206-685-3113 > treasurer, south east european studies association > web denizen, > > On Thu, 16 Sep 2010, R. M. Cleminson wrote: > > A quick look at the Russian National Corpus reveals 148 instances of купил/а/и бы and 73 of бы купил/а/и. > > If you want to do this properly, you will have to go through them and strip out instances of the former where the verb is the first word in the clause, and instances of the latter involving phrases such as вроде бы, будто бы etc. Then you will have material for comparison. > > Impressionistically (and waiting to be corrected), I would say the following. The enclitic бы forms a single prosodic unit with the preceding word, and its position is determined, like that of the preceding word, not only by grammatical considerations but by the intonational structure of the whole sentence. > > Consider: > > Я купил бы эту вещь, но мне дали бесплатно. > > Я бы купил эту вещь, но ее уже купила Ольга. > > In other words, I think it probable that there is a tendency (but not a rule) for бы to follow the word that bears the major stress in the clause. Unfortunately this is not a hypothesis that can readily be verified from written sources. It would be interesting to know whether any research has been done on it. Nevertheless, I think we can at least discount the theory that it depends on the laziness of the speaker. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _____________________________________________________________________ > > http://zajtrajsie.sme.sk - tipujte najblizsie sportove vysledky aj politicke udalosti > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kmfplatt at SAS.UPENN.EDU Thu Sep 16 22:19:24 2010 From: kmfplatt at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Kevin M. F. Platt) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 18:19:24 -0400 Subject: Mellon Teaching Post-Doctoral Fellowship at Penn Message-ID: Dear colleagues: Please help to distribute this call for applications to your qualified recent PhDs. Note that inquiries should be sent to my deans, rather than to me. I can field questions about the program, though, if there are interested applicants who would like guidance in completing the application. Thanks for your help, Kevin M. F. Platt, UPenn MELLON POSTDOCTORAL TEACHING FELLOWSHIPS In the Humanities and Humanistic Social Sciences 2011-2013 The University of Pennsylvania School of Arts and Sciences invites applicants for four two-year postdoctoral teaching fellowships in the humanities and humanistic social sciences. Fellows will teach one course per term. Eligibility is limited to applicants who will have received their Ph.D. within two years prior to the time they begin their fellowship at Penn (August, 2009 or later) $48,000 stipend. Application deadline: November 30, 2010. We are especially seeking fellows in Music Theory, Art History (with particular emphasis in Renaissance and/or Baroque), History (specializing in 19th-20th century U.S. International history, or environmental history in any place or time), East Asian Studies (specializing in East Asian religion or East Asian popular culture), and South Asian Studies. For guidelines and application, see the School of Arts and Sciences website [http:www.sas.upenn.edu/deans-office/Mellon] or write: Office of the Dean School of Arts and Sciences University of Pennsylvania 1 College Hall, Room 116 Philadelphia, PA 19104-6377 The University of Pennsylvania is an equal opportunity/affirmative action employer; women and minority candidates are strongly encouraged to apply. Professor Kevin M. F. Platt Chair, Program in Comparative Literature and Literary Theory Acting Chair, Department of Slavic Languages and Literatures 720 Williams Hall 255 S. 36th Street University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia, PA 19104-6305 kmfplatt at sas.upenn.edu http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/slavic/faculty/platt.htm Tel: 215-908-1685 Fax: 215-573-7794 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From yfurman at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU Thu Sep 16 23:03:27 2010 From: yfurman at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU (Furman, Yelena) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:03:27 -0700 Subject: reading suggestions Message-ID: Dear list members, Once again, an appeal to your collective wisdom. I am looking for critical and/or theoretical pieces on Russian detective fiction as well as detective fiction in general, and also more specific pieces on Dostoevskii's and Chekhov's relationship to this genre. Sources in either English or Russian are fine. I've come up with a few titles already, but want to make sure I'm not missing anything obvious. If anyone has any recommendations in this area, please reply off list to yfurman at humnet.ucla.edu and as always, many thanks in advance. -Yelena Furman ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From steiger at ROGERS.COM Fri Sep 17 00:54:28 2010 From: steiger at ROGERS.COM (Krystyna Steiger) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 20:54:28 -0400 Subject: translation help Message-ID: Dear list members, in my P'etsukh text there is a photo of an old man dressed in a "штатский мундир" (shtatskii mundir) of the pre-Revolutionary period, with brass buttons, and on which there is pinned a St. Stanilaus cross. Any ideas on how I should translate "в штатском мундире" (v shtatskom mundire)? Do the two terms not contradict each other? Is there such a thing as a "civillian full-dress uniform"? Any help would be great, on or off list. with best wishes to all, Krystyna steiger at rogers.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From zolotar at INTERLOG.COM Fri Sep 17 02:14:02 2010 From: zolotar at INTERLOG.COM (George Hawrysch) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 19:14:02 -0700 Subject: translation help In-Reply-To: <131EAFCDDE98409CA011AD42B3283845@admina1cadd87b> Message-ID: No contradiction. In that period, it was common for people to wear uniform-like clothing associated with social rank or professional affiliation. Court workers, orchestra members, guards and servants of all kinds... And people with money or title would wear sabers, epaulettes, brass buttons, etc. as a matter of course. The St. Stanislaus pin suggests this is a government employee. Since "мундир" refers to military dress, "штатский" is just a way to indicate a civilian in uniform. I would translate the term as "civil service uniform." George Hawrysch > in my P'etsukh text there is a photo of an old man dressed in a > "штатский мундир" (shtatskii mundir) of the pre-Revolutionary > period, with brass buttons, and on which there is pinned a St. > Stanilaus cross. > Any ideas on how I should translate "в штатском мундире" (v > shtatskom mundire)? Do the two terms not contradict each other? Is > there such a thing as a "civillian full-dress uniform"? > Any help would be great, on or off list. > with best wishes to all, > Krystyna > steiger at rogers.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bowrudder at GMAIL.COM Fri Sep 17 03:27:19 2010 From: bowrudder at GMAIL.COM (Charles Mills) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 20:27:19 -0700 Subject: [SEELA NGS] =?KOI8-R?Q?=C2=D9be_?= fore or af ter ve rb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The field of linguistics isn't underdeveloped in Russian. Rather, it just isn't represented on SEELANGS. There was a mass exodus of Slavic linguists sometime in the late 90s when a general consensus began to emerge among the Slavic linguistics community that SEELANGS and AATSEEL wasn't meeting the needs of the Slavic linguist, which are more closely aligned with general linguistics than literature, film, etc. I would hazard to guess that it has to do more with information structure than prosody. Uwe Junghanns has done outstanding work on the same phenomenon in Czech and shown that clitics are extracted from non-focused domains, but remain in situ within the scope of focus. To the extent that is true for Russian (a hypothesis), the analysis would be something like the following: Я [купил бы эту вещь]FOCUS, но мне дали [бесплатно]FOCUS [Я]FOCUS бы купил эту вещь, но ее уже купила [Ольга]FOCUS 2010/9/16 anne marie devlin > The field of linguistics and especially sociolinguistics seems to be > severely underdeveloped in Russian. The subject of language use has come up > many times on this list, but we don't appear to have experts. The answer to > so many of these questions can only really be determined through extensive > data collection - both written and spontaneous speech sources. What needs > to be determined is the who, why , where and when of each variable. What I > mean by that is to empirically determine the demographics (if appropriate) > of the users of one variable vs another - age, gender, class, geographical > location etc., the reason for chosing one - for emphasis, covert/overt > prestige, the linguistic environment in which one is favoured and finally in > which circumstances/occasions one is more prominent. Asking a panel of > native speakers may not provide the answer as there is a well-known > sociolinguistic phenomenon called the observer's paradox where speakers > purport to use or not certain forms and this is not in anyway supported by > empirical analysis of performance data. > These are fascinating questions and we would benefit from any input from a > sociolinguist as without it my I fear we might lose our minds - as perfectly > summed up by the title of the Pushkin poem previously quoted: > "Не дай мне бог сойти с ума". > > Anne Marie > > > Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 12:26:29 -0700 > > From: bigjim at U.WASHINGTON.EDU > > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] бы before or after verb > > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > > > I really hope you are correct. This is what I have been telling my > students for the last 40 years! And none of the natives I have discussed it > with have seriously disagreed with this approach. > > jim > > > > james e. augerot ________________________________________________ > > director, ellison center > > chair, russian, east european and central asian studies 206-685-3113 > > treasurer, south east european studies association < > http://www.seesa.info/> > > web denizen, > > > > On Thu, 16 Sep 2010, R. M. Cleminson wrote: > > > > A quick look at the Russian National Corpus reveals 148 instances of > купил/а/и бы and 73 of бы купил/а/и. > > > > If you want to do this properly, you will have to go through them and > strip out instances of the former where the verb is the first word in the > clause, and instances of the latter involving phrases such as вроде бы, > будто бы etc. Then you will have material for comparison. > > > > Impressionistically (and waiting to be corrected), I would say the > following. The enclitic бы forms a single prosodic unit with the preceding > word, and its position is determined, like that of the preceding word, not > only by grammatical considerations but by the intonational structure of the > whole sentence. > > > > Consider: > > > > Я купил бы эту вещь, но мне дали бесплатно. > > > > Я бы купил эту вещь, но ее уже купила Ольга. > > > > In other words, I think it probable that there is a tendency (but not a > rule) for бы to follow the word that bears the major stress in the clause. > Unfortunately this is not a hypothesis that can readily be verified from > written sources. It would be interesting to know whether any research has > been done on it. Nevertheless, I think we can at least discount the theory > that it depends on the laziness of the speaker. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _____________________________________________________________________ > > > > http://zajtrajsie.sme.sk - tipujte najblizsie sportove vysledky aj > politicke udalosti > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Philippe.FRISON at COE.INT Fri Sep 17 06:50:37 2010 From: Philippe.FRISON at COE.INT (FRISON Philippe) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 08:50:37 +0200 Subject: arestantskaya tyur'ma pri politsii In-Reply-To: A<20100914202801.AFV22745@mstore-prod-2.pdc.uis.georgetown.edu> Message-ID: Hello, I just found the term "арестантская тюрьма при полиции" (arestantskaya tyur'ma pri politsii). Is it the pre-revolutionary equivalent for ИВС (IVS, izoliator vremennogo soderzhania)? Regards Philippe Frison (Strasbourg, France) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Sep 17 07:37:56 2010 From: anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM (anne marie devlin) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 08:37:56 +0100 Subject: No subject Message-ID: It's such a shame then , that this exodus took place as so many of the queries surround linguistics and especially sociolinguistics. I would be very grateful if anyone could point me in the direction of any studies into the Russian sociolinguistics. I am aware of studies into L1 acquisition and the natural order of acquisition, but would love to find out more about how language is used today. Regards Anne Marie ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK Fri Sep 17 08:20:39 2010 From: Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK (Simon Beattie) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 09:20:39 +0100 Subject: Snimat' Message-ID: Dear List, I have been reading about the artist and icon-painter Lev Stepanovich Igorev. One source I found says: Сохранились сведения, что художник, живя в Пекине, <снимал портреты с некоторых знатных китайцев>, а сам Игорев писал в воспоминаниях об этом времени, что много рисовал, особенно то, <что интересовало его>. [Sokranilos' svedeniia, chto khudozhnik, zhivia v Pekine, "snimal portrety s nekotorykh znatnykh kitaitsev", a sam Igorev pisal v vospominaniiakh ob etom vrememi, chto mnogo risoval, osobenno to, "chto interesovalo ego".] This was in about 1860. As well as being a portrait painter, Igorev apparently also took photographs. 1860 would have been quite early for photography in China. My question is: can "snimat'" only refer to photography, or other drawings and pictures as well? What did the verb mean in the nineteenth century? Might it have had a wider sense then? Many thanks. Simon Simon Beattie Antiquarian books and music 84 The Broadway | Chesham | Buckinghamshire | HP5 1EG | UK tel. +44 (0)1494 784954 | mobile/voicemail +44 (0)7717 707575 | e-mail simon at simonbeattie.co.uk VAT no. GB 983 5355 83 Join me on Facebook . ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Fri Sep 17 08:33:30 2010 From: j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 09:33:30 +0100 Subject: Snimat' In-Reply-To: <003f01cb5641$36ee9720$a4cbc560$@co.uk> Message-ID: Dal' (4th edn, IV, col. 320) suggests that снимать/снять портрет [snimat'/snjat' portret] could be used with reference to either a drawing or a photograph. John Dunn. __________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Simon Beattie [Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK] Sent: 17 September 2010 10:20 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] Snimat' Dear List, I have been reading about the artist and icon-painter Lev Stepanovich Igorev. One source I found says: Сохранились сведения, что художник, живя в Пекине, <снимал портреты с некоторых знатных китайцев>, а сам Игорев писал в воспоминаниях об этом времени, что много рисовал, особенно то, <что интересовало его>. [Sokranilos' svedeniia, chto khudozhnik, zhivia v Pekine, "snimal portrety s nekotorykh znatnykh kitaitsev", a sam Igorev pisal v vospominaniiakh ob etom vrememi, chto mnogo risoval, osobenno to, "chto interesovalo ego".] This was in about 1860. As well as being a portrait painter, Igorev apparently also took photographs. 1860 would have been quite early for photography in China. My question is: can "snimat'" only refer to photography, or other drawings and pictures as well? What did the verb mean in the nineteenth century? Might it have had a wider sense then? Many thanks. Simon Simon Beattie Antiquarian books and music 84 The Broadway | Chesham | Buckinghamshire | HP5 1EG | UK tel. +44 (0)1494 784954 | mobile/voicemail +44 (0)7717 707575 | e-mail simon at simonbeattie.co.uk VAT no. GB 983 5355 83 Join me on Facebook . ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK Fri Sep 17 08:41:43 2010 From: Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK (Simon Beattie) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 09:41:43 +0100 Subject: Snimat' In-Reply-To: <9B55785EA179DA42AAA6EA7F7DC9DB90A99E930A80@CMS01.campus.gla.ac.uk> Message-ID: Thank you very much, John. I don't have reference to a copy of Dal' (or is it available online)? When was the fourth edition published, out of interest? Simon -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of John Dunn Sent: 17 September 2010 09:34 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Snimat' Dal' (4th edn, IV, col. 320) suggests that снимать/снять портрет [snimat'/snjat' portret] could be used with reference to either a drawing or a photograph. John Dunn. __________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Simon Beattie [Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK] Sent: 17 September 2010 10:20 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] Snimat' Dear List, I have been reading about the artist and icon-painter Lev Stepanovich Igorev. One source I found says: Сохранились сведения, что художник, живя в Пекине, <снимал портреты с некоторых знатных китайцев>, а сам Игорев писал в воспоминаниях об этом времени, что много рисовал, особенно то, <что интересовало его>. [Sokranilos' svedeniia, chto khudozhnik, zhivia v Pekine, "snimal portrety s nekotorykh znatnykh kitaitsev", a sam Igorev pisal v vospominaniiakh ob etom vrememi, chto mnogo risoval, osobenno to, "chto interesovalo ego".] This was in about 1860. As well as being a portrait painter, Igorev apparently also took photographs. 1860 would have been quite early for photography in China. My question is: can "snimat'" only refer to photography, or other drawings and pictures as well? What did the verb mean in the nineteenth century? Might it have had a wider sense then? Many thanks. Simon Simon Beattie Antiquarian books and music 84 The Broadway | Chesham | Buckinghamshire | HP5 1EG | UK tel. +44 (0)1494 784954 | mobile/voicemail +44 (0)7717 707575 | e-mail simon at simonbeattie.co.uk VAT no. GB 983 5355 83 Join me on Facebook . ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Fri Sep 17 09:16:37 2010 From: j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 10:16:37 +0100 Subject: Snimat' In-Reply-To: <005f01cb5644$281d6110$78582330$@co.uk> Message-ID: The fourth edition was published in 1914, though the same wording can be found in the second edition (1880-82). A Google search of the phrase Словарь Даля [Slovar' Dalja] comes up with numerous on-line versions; it may be that somebody on this list has had the time and patience to conduct a 'consumer survey' and can say whether any is to be particularly recommended or, indeed, to be avoided. What I did notice was that those versions that specify the edition (not all do) seem to use the first or the second (presumably a more refined search would establish whether there is an on-line version of the fourth edition) and that some use a modernised spelling. John Dunn. ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Simon Beattie [Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK] Sent: 17 September 2010 10:41 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Snimat' Thank you very much, John. I don't have reference to a copy of Dal' (or is it available online)? When was the fourth edition published, out of interest? Simon -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of John Dunn Sent: 17 September 2010 09:34 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Snimat' Dal' (4th edn, IV, col. 320) suggests that снимать/снять портрет [snimat'/snjat' portret] could be used with reference to either a drawing or a photograph. John Dunn. __________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Simon Beattie [Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK] Sent: 17 September 2010 10:20 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] Snimat' Dear List, I have been reading about the artist and icon-painter Lev Stepanovich Igorev. One source I found says: Сохранились сведения, что художник, живя в Пекине, <снимал портреты с некоторых знатных китайцев>, а сам Игорев писал в воспоминаниях об этом времени, что много рисовал, особенно то, <что интересовало его>. [Sokranilos' svedeniia, chto khudozhnik, zhivia v Pekine, "snimal portrety s nekotorykh znatnykh kitaitsev", a sam Igorev pisal v vospominaniiakh ob etom vrememi, chto mnogo risoval, osobenno to, "chto interesovalo ego".] This was in about 1860. As well as being a portrait painter, Igorev apparently also took photographs. 1860 would have been quite early for photography in China. My question is: can "snimat'" only refer to photography, or other drawings and pictures as well? What did the verb mean in the nineteenth century? Might it have had a wider sense then? Many thanks. Simon Simon Beattie Antiquarian books and music 84 The Broadway | Chesham | Buckinghamshire | HP5 1EG | UK tel. +44 (0)1494 784954 | mobile/voicemail +44 (0)7717 707575 | e-mail simon at simonbeattie.co.uk VAT no. GB 983 5355 83 Join me on Facebook . ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK Fri Sep 17 09:43:41 2010 From: Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK (Simon Beattie) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 10:43:41 +0100 Subject: Snimat' In-Reply-To: <9B55785EA179DA42AAA6EA7F7DC9DB90A99E930A81@CMS01.campus.gla.ac.uk> Message-ID: Thanks. That's very helpful. Simon -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of John Dunn Sent: 17 September 2010 10:17 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Snimat' The fourth edition was published in 1914, though the same wording can be found in the second edition (1880-82). A Google search of the phrase Словарь Даля [Slovar' Dalja] comes up with numerous on-line versions; it may be that somebody on this list has had the time and patience to conduct a 'consumer survey' and can say whether any is to be particularly recommended or, indeed, to be avoided. What I did notice was that those versions that specify the edition (not all do) seem to use the first or the second (presumably a more refined search would establish whether there is an on-line version of the fourth edition) and that some use a modernised spelling. John Dunn. ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Simon Beattie [Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK] Sent: 17 September 2010 10:41 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Snimat' Thank you very much, John. I don't have reference to a copy of Dal' (or is it available online)? When was the fourth edition published, out of interest? Simon -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of John Dunn Sent: 17 September 2010 09:34 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Snimat' Dal' (4th edn, IV, col. 320) suggests that снимать/снять портрет [snimat'/snjat' portret] could be used with reference to either a drawing or a photograph. John Dunn. __________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Simon Beattie [Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK] Sent: 17 September 2010 10:20 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] Snimat' Dear List, I have been reading about the artist and icon-painter Lev Stepanovich Igorev. One source I found says: Сохранились сведения, что художник, живя в Пекине, <снимал портреты с некоторых знатных китайцев>, а сам Игорев писал в воспоминаниях об этом времени, что много рисовал, особенно то, <что интересовало его>. [Sokranilos' svedeniia, chto khudozhnik, zhivia v Pekine, "snimal portrety s nekotorykh znatnykh kitaitsev", a sam Igorev pisal v vospominaniiakh ob etom vrememi, chto mnogo risoval, osobenno to, "chto interesovalo ego".] This was in about 1860. As well as being a portrait painter, Igorev apparently also took photographs. 1860 would have been quite early for photography in China. My question is: can "snimat'" only refer to photography, or other drawings and pictures as well? What did the verb mean in the nineteenth century? Might it have had a wider sense then? Many thanks. Simon Simon Beattie Antiquarian books and music 84 The Broadway | Chesham | Buckinghamshire | HP5 1EG | UK tel. +44 (0)1494 784954 | mobile/voicemail +44 (0)7717 707575 | e-mail simon at simonbeattie.co.uk VAT no. GB 983 5355 83 Join me on Facebook . ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Fri Sep 17 11:01:51 2010 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 12:01:51 +0100 Subject: Snimat' In-Reply-To: <9B55785EA179DA42AAA6EA7F7DC9DB90A99E930A81@CMS01.campus.gla.ac.uk> Message-ID: The 4th edn, as far as I know, was just a reprint of the 3rd, which was a "ispravlennoe i znachitelʹno dopolnennoe izdanie" edited by Jan Baudouin de Courtenay, i.e. not the same as the 2nd edition. I have never understood why the 2nd edn is almost always the one which is reprinted, and the one which is found online (but I believe there was 1994 reprint of 4th edn in Moscow). Possibly because it contained netsenzurnye slova? It is quite hard to find and when I last looked it was expensive on the secondhand book market (about £250). Yes, you can use pisat', risovat', sozdavat', delat', izobrazhat' or snimat' with portret: (quote) последний портрет, снятый в год смерти Пушкина. In English I think "take a portrait" would now be a little unusual unless it is photographic. You could at one time "take a likeness" to mean the same thing. Will On 17/09/2010 10:16, John Dunn wrote: > The fourth edition was published in 1914, though the same wording can be found in the second edition (1880-82). A Google search of the phrase ������� ���� [Slovar' Dalja] comes up with numerous on-line versions; it may be that somebody on this list has had the time and patience to conduct a 'consumer survey' and can say whether any is to be particularly recommended or, indeed, to be avoided. What I did notice was that those versions that specify the edition (not all do) seem to use the first or the second (presumably a more refined search would establish whether there is an on-line version of the fourth edition) and that some use a modernised spelling. > > John Dunn. > > ________________________________________ > From: SEELANGS: Slavic& East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Simon Beattie [Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK] > Sent: 17 September 2010 10:41 > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Snimat' > > Thank you very much, John. I don't have reference to a copy of Dal' (or is > it available online)? > > When was the fourth edition published, out of interest? > > Simon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic& East European Languages and Literatures list > [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of John Dunn > Sent: 17 September 2010 09:34 > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Snimat' > > Dal' (4th edn, IV, col. 320) suggests that �������/����� ������� > [snimat'/snjat' portret] could be used with reference to either a drawing or > a photograph. > > John Dunn. > > __________________ > From: SEELANGS: Slavic& East European Languages and Literatures list > [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Simon Beattie [Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK] > Sent: 17 September 2010 10:20 > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: [SEELANGS] Snimat' > > Dear List, > > > > I have been reading about the artist and icon-painter Lev Stepanovich > Igorev. One source I found says: > > > > ����������� ��������, ��� ��������, ���� � ������,<������ �������� � > ��������� ������� ��������>, � ��� ������ ����� � ������������� �� ���� > �������, ��� ����� �������, �������� ��,<��� ������������ ���>. > > > > [Sokranilos' svedeniia, chto khudozhnik, zhivia v Pekine, "snimal portrety s > nekotorykh znatnykh kitaitsev", a sam Igorev pisal v vospominaniiakh ob etom > vrememi, chto mnogo risoval, osobenno to, "chto interesovalo ego".] > > > > This was in about 1860. As well as being a portrait painter, Igorev > apparently also took photographs. 1860 would have been quite early for > photography in China. My question is: can "snimat'" only refer to > photography, or other drawings and pictures as well? What did the verb mean > in the nineteenth century? Might it have had a wider sense then? > > > > Many thanks. > > > > Simon > > > > > > Simon Beattie > > Antiquarian books and music > > > > 84 The Broadway | Chesham | Buckinghamshire | HP5 1EG | UK > > > > tel. +44 (0)1494 784954 | mobile/voicemail +44 (0)7717 707575 | e-mail > simon at simonbeattie.co.uk > > > > VAT no. GB 983 5355 83 > > > > Join me on Facebook > . > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From s.sherry at SMS.ED.AC.UK Fri Sep 17 11:21:36 2010 From: s.sherry at SMS.ED.AC.UK (Samantha Sherry) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 12:21:36 +0100 Subject: Edinburgh University Russian Studies Postgraduate Conference Message-ID: The University of Edinburgh is pleased to announce the programme its Russian Studies Postgraduate Conference, to be held in the university's new Princess Dashkova Centre on the 15th of October. https://www.wiki.ed.ac.uk/display/russianspc/Programme Anyone interested in applying should email russianstudiesconference at gmail.com by 24th September. -- Russian in Context Research Unit University of Edinburgh 19 George Square Edinburgh EH8 9LD Russian Studies Postgraduate Conference www.wiki.ed.ac.uk/display/russianspc The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From asured at VERIZON.NET Fri Sep 17 11:37:16 2010 From: asured at VERIZON.NET (STEPHEN MARDER) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 04:37:16 -0700 Subject: Snimat' In-Reply-To: <4C934A9F.7090208@sas.ac.uk> Message-ID: >  The 4th edn, as far as I know, was just a reprint of the 3rd, which > was a  "ispravlennoe i znachitelʹno dopolnennoe izdanie" edited by Jan > Baudouin de Courtenay, i.e. not the same as the 2nd edition. I have > never understood  why the 2nd edn is almost always the one which is > reprinted, and the one which is found online (but I believe there was > 1994 reprint of 4th edn in Moscow). Possibly because it contained > netsenzurnye slova? It is quite hard to find and when I last looked it > was expensive on the secondhand book market (about £250). The third edition is available online and can be downloaded (in DjVu format): http://runivers.ru/lib/detail.php?ID=540065 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From margaret.samu at NYU.EDU Fri Sep 17 14:33:39 2010 From: margaret.samu at NYU.EDU (Margaret Anne Samu) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 10:33:39 -0400 Subject: Snimat' In-Reply-To: <003f01cb5641$36ee9720$a4cbc560$@co.uk> Message-ID: Dear Simon and All, It's true that snimat' can refer to portrait painting as well as photography, but that does not mean Igorev was not taking photos in China. There were photographers working in China well before 1860. Terry Bennett's new study, /History of photography in China, 1842-1860/ looks at that early history. It would be fascinating to know if Igorev was one of the early practioners. Best regards, Margaret ====================== Margaret Samu, Ph.D. Sylvan C. Coleman and Pamela Coleman Memorial Fellow Nineteenth-Century, Modern and Contemporary Art The Metropolitan Museum of Art 1000 Fifth Avenue New York, NY 10028-0198 ----- Original Message ----- From: Simon Beattie Date: Friday, September 17, 2010 4:23 am Subject: [SEELANGS] Snimat' To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Dear List, > > > > I have been reading about the artist and icon-painter Lev Stepanovich > Igorev. One source I found says: > > > > Сохранились сведения, что художник, живя в Пекине, <снимал портреты с > некоторых знатных китайцев>, а сам Игорев писал в воспоминаниях об этом > времени, что много рисовал, особенно то, <что интересовало его>. > > > > [Sokranilos' svedeniia, chto khudozhnik, zhivia v Pekine, "snimal > portrety s > nekotorykh znatnykh kitaitsev", a sam Igorev pisal v vospominaniiakh > ob etom > vrememi, chto mnogo risoval, osobenno to, "chto interesovalo ego".] > > > > This was in about 1860. As well as being a portrait painter, Igorev > apparently also took photographs. 1860 would have been quite early for > photography in China. My question is: can "snimat'" only refer to > photography, or other drawings and pictures as well? What did the > verb mean > in the nineteenth century? Might it have had a wider sense then? > > > > Many thanks. > > > > Simon > > > > > > Simon Beattie > > Antiquarian books and music > > > > 84 The Broadway | Chesham | Buckinghamshire | HP5 1EG | UK > > > > tel. +44 (0)1494 784954 | mobile/voicemail +44 (0)7717 707575 | e-mail > simon at simonbeattie.co.uk > > > > VAT no. GB 983 5355 83 > > > > Join me on Facebook < > . > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From evprok at WM.EDU Fri Sep 17 15:29:30 2010 From: evprok at WM.EDU (evprok at WM.EDU) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 11:29:30 -0400 Subject: vodka Message-ID: Dear all, a friend of mine in anthropology is looking for any good scholarly publications on the history and culture of vodka consumption in Russia. I would appreciate any suggestions. Siuncerely, Elena Prokhorova Assistant Professor of Russian Director, Russian and Post-Soviet Studies Program Modern Languages Department Film Studies Faculty College of William and Mary (757) 221-7755 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Fri Sep 17 15:32:18 2010 From: j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 16:32:18 +0100 Subject: Snimat' In-Reply-To: <53a0f18155846.4c934403@mail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: P.E. Skachkov (Ocherki russkogo kitaevedenija, M. Nauka, 1977, pp. 172, 175) describes Igorev's activities in China as a member of Russia's 14th ecclesiastical mission to the Chinese capital; he mentions his portraits, but says nothing about photography. Incidentally, Skachkov's copious end-notes may provide additional sources for Igorev, especially in relation to his time in China. John. ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Margaret Anne Samu [margaret.samu at NYU.EDU] Sent: 17 September 2010 16:33 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Snimat' Dear Simon and All, It's true that snimat' can refer to portrait painting as well as photography, but that does not mean Igorev was not taking photos in China. There were photographers working in China well before 1860. Terry Bennett's new study, /History of photography in China, 1842-1860/ looks at that early history. It would be fascinating to know if Igorev was one of the early practioners. Best regards, Margaret ====================== Margaret Samu, Ph.D. Sylvan C. Coleman and Pamela Coleman Memorial Fellow Nineteenth-Century, Modern and Contemporary Art The Metropolitan Museum of Art 1000 Fifth Avenue New York, NY 10028-0198 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ewb2 at CORNELL.EDU Fri Sep 17 16:11:36 2010 From: ewb2 at CORNELL.EDU (E Wayles Browne) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 12:11:36 -0400 Subject: vodka In-Reply-To: <20100917112930.ECS31516@mailstore.wm.edu> Message-ID: See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Pokhlyobkin and follow the link to the Russian Wikipedia article on him too. Pokhlebkin/Pokhlyobkin wrote a book Istoriya Vodki, also translated into English as A History of Vodka. -- Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics Department of Linguistics Morrill Hall 220, Cornell University Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A. tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h) fax 607-255-2044 (write FOR W. BROWNE) e-mail ewb2 at cornell.edu ________________________________ From: Reply-To: "SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list" Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 11:29:30 -0400 To: Subject: [SEELANGS] vodka Dear all, a friend of mine in anthropology is looking for any good scholarly publications on the history and culture of vodka consumption in Russia. I would appreciate any suggestions. Siuncerely, Elena Prokhorova ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From steiger at ROGERS.COM Fri Sep 17 18:30:20 2010 From: steiger at ROGERS.COM (Krystyna Steiger) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 14:30:20 -0400 Subject: translation help Message-ID: Dear George, Steve and Nataliya, thanks so much for clearing up my shtatskii mundir question on-list and off, you've all been a great help! very best wishes to all, Krystyna ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Hawrysch" To: Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 10:14 PM Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] translation help > No contradiction. In that period, it was common for people > to wear uniform-like clothing associated with social rank or > professional affiliation. Court workers, orchestra members, > guards and servants of all kinds... And people with money or > title would wear sabers, epaulettes, brass buttons, etc. as > a matter of course. The St. Stanislaus pin suggests this is > a government employee. > > Since "мундир" refers to military dress, "штатский" is just > a way to indicate a civilian in uniform. I would translate > the term as "civil service uniform." > > George Hawrysch > >> in my P'etsukh text there is a photo of an old man dressed in a >> "штатский мундир" (shtatskii mundir) of the pre-Revolutionary period, >> with brass buttons, and on which there is pinned a St. Stanilaus cross. >> Any ideas on how I should translate "в штатском мундире" (v shtatskom >> mundire)? Do the two terms not contradict each other? Is there such a >> thing as a "civillian full-dress uniform"? >> Any help would be great, on or off list. >> with best wishes to all, >> Krystyna >> steiger at rogers.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ggerhart at COMCAST.NET Fri Sep 17 19:06:55 2010 From: ggerhart at COMCAST.NET (Genevra Gerhart) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 12:06:55 -0700 Subject: Reading list for folklore volunteers Message-ID: Ladies and gentlemen, A friend has asked me to supply a reading list of books that might be helpful to foreigners who will be helping out on folklore expeditions in rural Russia. The books must be fiction, in English, and mostly set in the countryside. Mail to Margaret at mmck at sccd.ctc.edu, or maybe the list would be interested? Thanks for any help you can give. Genevra Gerhart ggerhart at comcast.net www.genevragerhart.com www.russiancommonknowledge.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From victor.dmitriev at OKSTATE.EDU Fri Sep 17 19:00:48 2010 From: victor.dmitriev at OKSTATE.EDU (Dmitriev, Victor) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 14:00:48 -0500 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Я помню Бродский очень хорошо говорил в одном из своих интервью о бесчисленных попытках упростить русский язык. Его мысль была примерно такова: упрощение языка ведет к упрощению мышления. Я думаю, что в основании не самой проблемы курсива, а ее, проблемы, появления лежит обстоятельство, в котором никто не повинен. Здесь, в США, студенты, серьезно изучающие иностранный язык, обречены на то, чтобы сидетъ в одной и той же аудитории с теми, кто берет иностранный язык исключительно в силу обстоятельств, то есть - для "кредитов". Бедный профессо�! � поставлен в глупое и ложное положение: как удовлетворить тех, кому язык не нужен и тех, кому он о ч е н ь нужен. И как спасти работу, над которой завис дамоклов меч деканата, только и думающего о том, как бы сброситъ лишний язык с корабля современности, то есть - с бюджета. Отсюда и идеи, которые хотъ раз, да обязательно приходят в голову любому преподавателю. ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Monnier, Nicole M. [MonnierN at MISSOURI.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 8:45 AM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age Richard! Great question - one I was contemplating posting to the list as well. As I began the semester this year, I was struck by how many students don't use cursive in English and the added difficulties of this fact for the teaching of Russian cursive. As to your conditions, our current textbook (Live from Russia) does not have online exercises, so students inevitably have to handwrite their textbook exercises, as well as their exams and quizzes, so learning cursive is unavoidable at this juncture. I also tell them that they should be taking notes, and all my notes on the board are in cursive; likewise, when they head off to Russia (I always tell them "when," not "if"!), they're going to find themselves in situations where they'll have to read or write cursive. HOWEVER, I have been seriously contemplating requiring them to learn how to type in Russian, preferably with the Gosstandart layout (again, on the same premise that they find themselves in Russia some day with no option of the QUERTY translit keyboard), if only because it will give them incredible interactive access to real Russian online (Vkontakte, chat, etc.). I'm thinking about doing this in the second semester of first-year (ours is a 15-week course at 6 hours/week). I do not curtail students' use of the computer, though few venture onto the keyboard on their own in any event. If our university required all students to have laptops of some sort, I would be even more likely to require students to learn to type in Russian. Other than that, I can only say that I am as curious as you as to other practices in our field. Best, Nicole **************************** Dr. Nicole Monnier Associate Teaching Professor of Russian Director of Undergraduate Studies (Russian) German & Russian Studies 428A Strickland (formerly GCB) University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65211 phone: 573.882.3370 On 9/8/10 7:48 AM, "Richard Robin" wrote: > Dear SEELANGers, > > I¹d like to get some feedback from colleagues on the issue of teaching > Russian script to beginners in an era of computer-delivered materials. > > Imagine using a textbook under the following conditions: > > 1. Every exercise is online but also available in the printed version of > a student workbook (tear out pages, etc.) > 2. Your students have computers that can type Cyrillic, and using either > the native Gosstandart layout or the phonetic ³student² keyboard, they can > type Russian. > 3. While all the exercises are on line, some are (a) machine gradable > (simple choose the ending or fill in the blank with an unambiguous word or > phrase, (b) sentence or paragraph length, submittable electronically to the > teacher, but not machine gradable. > > > Questions: > > 1. Do you teach cursive basically for recognition and embrace the use of > all the online exercises? > 2. Do you limit the use of the students¹ use of the computer until they > have mastered cursive? > 3. If you answered yes, to Question 2, what are the limits? How long must > they write things by hand? (It helps if you calculate by instructional > hours, where a typical 4-hour a week semester of 15 weeks comes to 60 > hours, > a year ‹ 120 hours). Do they have to write everything by hand or is there > an > acceptable mix of handwritten work and computer work? > 4. Any other opinions you have on the subject. > > Either public or private answers are appreciated. This is not a formal > scholarly survey (obviously). I just want to get people to express some > opinions on the matter. > > Thanks, > Richard Robin > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From nataliek at UALBERTA.CA Fri Sep 17 19:44:49 2010 From: nataliek at UALBERTA.CA (nataliek at UALBERTA.CA) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 13:44:49 -0600 Subject: Reading list for folklore volunteers In-Reply-To: <001e01cb569b$7f2434f0$7d6c9ed0$@net> Message-ID: Just out of curiosity, why must the books be fiction? I would suggest my own Slavic Folklore: A Handbook and Linda Ivanits' Russian Folk Belief, but neither is fiction. Natalie Kononenko Quoting "Genevra Gerhart" : > Ladies and gentlemen, > > A friend has asked me to supply a reading list of books that might be > helpful to foreigners who will be helping out on folklore expeditions in > rural Russia. The books must be fiction, in English, and mostly set in the > countryside. > > Mail to Margaret at mmck at sccd.ctc.edu, or maybe the list would be > interested? > > Thanks for any help you can give. > > > > Genevra Gerhart > > > > ggerhart at comcast.net > > > > www.genevragerhart.com > > www.russiancommonknowledge.com > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Natalie Kononenko Kule Chair of Ukrainian Ethnography Editor, Folklorica University of Alberta Modern Languages and Cultural Studies 200 Arts Building Edmonton, Alberta, Canada T6G 2E6 Phone: 780-492-6810 Web: http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/uvp/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From e.gapova at GMAIL.COM Fri Sep 17 20:21:55 2010 From: e.gapova at GMAIL.COM (Elena Gapova) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 16:21:55 -0400 Subject: vodka In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Also see P Herlihy. The alcoholic empire: vodka and politics on late Imperial Russia. 2002 - OXPORD UNIVERSITY PRESS D Christian. Living water: vodka and Russian societyn on the eve of emancipation. 1990 M Shaw, M Ormston. values and vodka: cross-cultural anatomy of an Anglo-Russian educational project. International Journal of Educational Development, 2001 e.g. 2010/9/17 E Wayles Browne > See > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Pokhlyobkin > and follow the link to the Russian Wikipedia article on him too. > > Pokhlebkin/Pokhlyobkin wrote a book Istoriya Vodki, also translated into > English as A History of Vodka. > > > -- > Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics > Morrill Hall 220, Cornell University > Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A. > > tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h) > fax 607-255-2044 (write FOR W. BROWNE) > e-mail ewb2 at cornell.edu > > ________________________________ > From: > Reply-To: "SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list" > > Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 11:29:30 -0400 > To: > Subject: [SEELANGS] vodka > > Dear all, > > a friend of mine in anthropology is looking for any good scholarly > publications on the history and culture of vodka consumption in Russia. > > I would appreciate any suggestions. > > Siuncerely, > > Elena Prokhorova > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From anne.o.fisher at GMAIL.COM Fri Sep 17 20:53:22 2010 From: anne.o.fisher at GMAIL.COM (Anne Fisher) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 13:53:22 -0700 Subject: Reading list for folklore volunteers In-Reply-To: <001e01cb569b$7f2434f0$7d6c9ed0$@net> Message-ID: This is also not fiction, but it is about adjusting to life in rural Russia and might be good preparatory reading for those without prior experience there - _The Stork's Nest: Life and Love in the Russian Countryside_ by Laura Williams. And, this isn't exactly fiction either, but Doug Rogers's book _The Old Faith and The Russian Land_ might be useful to dip into. On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Genevra Gerhart wrote: > Ladies and gentlemen, > > A friend has asked me to supply a reading list of books that might be > helpful to foreigners who will be helping out on folklore expeditions in > rural Russia.  The books must be fiction, in English, and mostly set in the > countryside. > > Mail to Margaret at  mmck at sccd.ctc.edu, or maybe the list would be > interested? > > Thanks for any help you can give. > > > > Genevra Gerhart > > > >   ggerhart at comcast.net > > > >   www.genevragerhart.com > >   www.russiancommonknowledge.com > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >  Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >  options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >                    http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Anne O. Fisher, Ph.D. Russian Interpreter and Translator anne.o.fisher at gmail.com 440-986-0175 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU Fri Sep 17 21:04:16 2010 From: hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU (Hugh McLean) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 14:04:16 -0700 Subject: Snimat' In-Reply-To: <9B55785EA179DA42AAA6EA7F7DC9DB90A99E930A81@CMS01.campus.gla.ac.uk> Message-ID: The fourth edition was reprinted in Tokyo, of all places, in the 1930s. In Soviet times this edition was taboo, apparently because it included "four-letter" words. The earlier editions did not. > The fourth edition was published in 1914, though the same wording can be found in the second edition (1880-82). A Google search of the phrase Словарь Даля [Slovar' Dalja] comes up with numerous on-line versions; it may be that somebody on this list has had the time and patience to conduct a 'consumer survey' and can say whether any is to be particularly recommended or, indeed, to be avoided. What I did notice was that those versions that specify the edition (not all do) seem to use the first or the second (presumably a more refined search would establish whether there is an on-line version of the fourth edition) and that some use a modernised spelling. > > John Dunn. > > ________________________________________ > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Simon Beattie [Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK] > Sent: 17 September 2010 10:41 > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Snimat' > > Thank you very much, John. I don't have reference to a copy of Dal' (or is > it available online)? > > When was the fourth edition published, out of interest? > > Simon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list > [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of John Dunn > Sent: 17 September 2010 09:34 > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Snimat' > > Dal' (4th edn, IV, col. 320) suggests that снимать/снять портрет > [snimat'/snjat' portret] could be used with reference to either a drawing or > a photograph. > > John Dunn. > > __________________ > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list > [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Simon Beattie [Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK] > Sent: 17 September 2010 10:20 > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: [SEELANGS] Snimat' > > Dear List, > > > > I have been reading about the artist and icon-painter Lev Stepanovich > Igorev. One source I found says: > > > > Сохранились сведения, что художник, живя в Пекине, <снимал портреты с > некоторых знатных китайцев>, а сам Игорев писал в воспоминаниях об этом > времени, что много рисовал, особенно то, <что интересовало его>. > > > > [Sokranilos' svedeniia, chto khudozhnik, zhivia v Pekine, "snimal portrety s > nekotorykh znatnykh kitaitsev", a sam Igorev pisal v vospominaniiakh ob etom > vrememi, chto mnogo risoval, osobenno to, "chto interesovalo ego".] > > > > This was in about 1860. As well as being a portrait painter, Igorev > apparently also took photographs. 1860 would have been quite early for > photography in China. My question is: can "snimat'" only refer to > photography, or other drawings and pictures as well? What did the verb mean > in the nineteenth century? Might it have had a wider sense then? > > > > Many thanks. > > > > Simon > > > > > > Simon Beattie > > Antiquarian books and music > > > > 84 The Broadway | Chesham | Buckinghamshire | HP5 1EG | UK > > > > tel. +44 (0)1494 784954 | mobile/voicemail +44 (0)7717 707575 | e-mail > simon at simonbeattie.co.uk > > > > VAT no. GB 983 5355 83 > > > > Join me on Facebook > . > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dustin.hosseini at GMAIL.COM Sat Sep 18 00:29:09 2010 From: dustin.hosseini at GMAIL.COM (Dustin Hosseini) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 19:29:09 -0500 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age Message-ID: I'm not sure if anyone has thought about this, but changing the keyboard layout on any PC or Mac is exceedingly easy these days. All a student has to do is add the keyboard layout and apply it. Macs come with the normal and "phonetic" Russian keyboards as a standard. With PCs, and a Windows-based computer with unrestricted access can easily be modified to suit the needs of the user. Therefore, these arguments about learners being faced with a Russian "gosstandart" keyboard layout in Russia are all completely invalid. Let the learners choose what is best for them, after all, teachers are there to facilitate their learning, not dictate it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Sat Sep 18 06:00:09 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 07:00:09 +0100 Subject: Onchukov - ANSWER TO translation question - Buravchik In-Reply-To: <379498.20098.qm@web63305.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear all, Several days ago I wrote to the list with the following question: “In ‘Tsar’-chernoknizhnik’, from Ozhegov’s SEVERNYE SKAZKI, the hero, after transforming himself into a number of different wild animals, in order to hide from the evil tsar, бегал, бегал, прибежал перед царски окошки, овернулся золотым буравчиком и начал кататьца перед царскими окошками. Тhe only meaning I can find for ‘buravchik’ is gimlet. That is not utterly impossible, but it surprises me. Can anyone suggest any other possible meanings? А couple of days ago Yelena Francis sent me a delightful and totally convincing reply. She has now given me her permission to share it with the list, so here it is: “I think that "buravchik" might be translated directly because of the second meaning of this tool. A.Toporkov's "Russian Erotical Folklore" mentions "buravchik" as a metaphor for penis. You can look at http://www.gumer.info/bibliotek_Buks/Culture/topork/11.php “ The hero will first sleep with, and then marry, the tsarevna, so this reading makes perfect sense. And I found this chastushka on page 511 of Toporkov’s book: - Уж ты, тетушка, красавица моя, Мне пондравилась чернильница твоя. - Уж ты, дядюшка, красавчик мой, Мне пондравился буравчик твой. So here is my draft as it now stands. I have double-translated ‘buravchik’ in an attempt to give a clue to the reader! He ran and he ran until he came back to the tsar’s palace. He turned into a twisting gimlet, a little golden tool, and began dancing about outside the tsar’s windows. He danced and danced, then turned into a falcon and flew to the window of the tsar’s daughter’s bedroom. The tsarevna saw the falcon, opened her window and called the falcon inside: ‘Come in, my fine falcon, come in, my handsome little falcon!’ The falcon sat on the window ledge, leaped onto the floor and turned into a handsome young man. The tsarevna greeted him and sat him at her oak table. They drank and feasted and did what was good. Then the young man turned himself into a gold ring, and the tsarevna put this ring on her finger. My thanks to Yelena and SEELANGS! Robert ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Sat Sep 18 09:55:36 2010 From: j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 10:55:36 +0100 Subject: vodka In-Reply-To: <20100917112930.ECS31516@mailstore.wm.edu> Message-ID: Another potentially useful source might be: R.E.F. Smith and David Christian, Bread and Salt: A Social and Economic History of Food and Drink in Russia, C.U.P., 1984. John Dunn. ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of evprok at WM.EDU [evprok at WM.EDU] Sent: 17 September 2010 17:29 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] vodka Dear all, a friend of mine in anthropology is looking for any good scholarly publications on the history and culture of vodka consumption in Russia. I would appreciate any suggestions. Siuncerely, Elena Prokhorova Assistant Professor of Russian Director, Russian and Post-Soviet Studies Program Modern Languages Department Film Studies Faculty College of William and Mary (757) 221-7755 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Sat Sep 18 11:01:56 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 07:01:56 -0400 Subject: Onchukov - ANSWER TO translation question - Buravchik In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jan, All is perfect, except for the diminutive "little falcon". Perhaps "dearest falcon"? The problem with Russian diminutives as affectionate (not only Russian) and their untranslatability, is huge. Already Nabokov says about one of his philologically inapt characters that he understood Pushkin's nozhki as little feet, or the German fuesschen. Perhaps an affectionate should replace any reference to the diminutive entirely? o.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Sat Sep 18 13:39:15 2010 From: j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 14:39:15 +0100 Subject: No subject In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One can think of several more or less good reasons why sociolinguistic research is or has been difficult to conduct in Soviet and post-Soviet Russia. There is, though, a 4-volume study called Русский язык и советское общество [Russkij jazyk i sovetskoe obshchestvo], edited by M.V. Panov and published in 1968. Not quite today's language, perhaps, but from what I remember (I haven't got the volumes to hand), there is a great deal of statistical data of a type which I don't think can be found anywhere else. And, though there are a number of general surveys of post-Soviet Russian, I am not aware of anything that goes into anything like that level of detail. It may be possible to find some interesting information in the surveys carried out by organisations such as VTsIOM and the Levada-tsentr. I know that surveys exist on attitudes to мат [mat] and there may be others on language-related topics. There is, however, a related issue, which is not (or not necessarily) sociolinguistic. As the co-author of a recently published grammar I am aware of the dearth of information concerning the grammar constructions that people really use (as opposed to the ones that grammar books say they use or should use). Here I would imagine that the corpora gradually being made available will help, at least for the written language, but in the meantime I would draw your attention to L.K. Graudina, V.A. Itskovich, L.P. Katalinskaja, Грамматическая правильность русской речи [Grammaticheskaja pravil'nost' russkoj rechi], M., Nauka, 1976, a book which is far more interesting than the unpromising title might suggest. John Dunn. ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of anne marie devlin [anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM] Sent: 17 September 2010 09:37 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] It's such a shame then , that this exodus took place as so many of the queries surround linguistics and especially sociolinguistics. I would be very grateful if anyone could point me in the direction of any studies into the Russian sociolinguistics. I am aware of studies into L1 acquisition and the natural order of acquisition, but would love to find out more about how language is used today. Regards Anne Marie ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Sat Sep 18 13:50:40 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 09:50:40 -0400 Subject: No subject In-Reply-To: <9B55785EA179DA42AAA6EA7F7DC9DB90A99E930A86@CMS01.campus.gla.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Socio-Linguistics. One of the best today seems to be Maxim Krongauz, both his Russkij iazyk na grani nervnogo sryva (with a tongue-in-cheek homage to Almodovar), and his ""Publichnaia intimnost". Not only is he very apt but also extremely witty. o.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Sep 18 14:42:19 2010 From: anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM (anne marie devlin) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 15:42:19 +0100 Subject: No subject In-Reply-To: <20100918095040.AFX02158@mstore-prod-2.pdc.uis.georgetown.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for the suggestions re: sociolinguistics. I also received a reply off-list with a published article of the language of the army - very interesting material! As regards grammar books and sociolinguistics, I believe there is a huge overlap which makes the compilation of grammars an unenviable task. While corpora provide a rich resource, they are not without caveats. Written corpora provide examples of normally formal language; whereas when dealing with spoken corpora we are presented with language whose origin is often unclear. Again, we need to know the demographics of the speaker, the relationship among interlocutors and formality of the situation. Another point to bear in mind is whether or not the speakers know they are being recorded. A recent corpora of the speech of Irish female students records the word 'Jesus' as being the strongest response token in use. This doesn't seem to correlate with naturally occurring speech as much stronger tokens are generally uttered, so the fact they knew they were being recorded has led to a modification of speech. We need more people on the ground doing empirical research into all the troublesome areas in order to answer our questions. AM > Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 09:50:40 -0400 > From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU > Subject: [SEELANGS] > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > On Socio-Linguistics. One of the best today seems to be Maxim Krongauz, both his Russkij iazyk na grani nervnogo sryva (with a tongue-in-cheek homage to Almodovar), and his ""Publichnaia intimnost". Not only is he very apt but also extremely witty. > o.m. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------. > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Sat Sep 18 15:51:32 2010 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 16:51:32 +0100 Subject: vodka In-Reply-To: <20100917112930.ECS31516@mailstore.wm.edu> Message-ID: For vodka in folk customs and rituals, perhaps useful for someone in anthropology, see N. I. Tolstoi's article "vodka" in the encyclopedia Slavianskie drevnosti, vol. 1, 1995, pp. 392-4. Will Ryan On 17/09/2010 16:29, evprok at WM.EDU wrote: > Dear all, > > a friend of mine in anthropology is looking for any good scholarly publications on the history and culture of vodka consumption in Russia. > > I would appreciate any suggestions. > > Siuncerely, > > Elena Prokhorova > Assistant Professor of Russian > Director, Russian and Post-Soviet Studies Program > Modern Languages Department > Film Studies Faculty > College of William and Mary > (757) 221-7755 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU Sat Sep 18 20:01:20 2010 From: mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU (Melissa Smith) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 16:01:20 -0400 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Thanks! On 9/18/10 9:50 AM, Olga Meerson wrote: > On Socio-Linguistics. One of the best today seems to be Maxim Krongauz, both his Russkij iazyk na grani nervnogo sryva (with a tongue-in-cheek homage to Almodovar), and his ""Publichnaia intimnost". Not only is he very apt but also extremely witty. > o.m. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------ Melissa T. Smith, Professor Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures Youngstown State University Youngstown, OH 44555 Tel: (330)941-3462 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU Sat Sep 18 20:39:07 2010 From: mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU (Melissa Smith) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 16:39:07 -0400 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age Message-ID: To add some personal anecdotes to the discussion: As an American who learned to touch-type in her teens, I can still recite the repetitive training mantra "A S D F space, J K L semicolon L K J"), and thus find the phonetic keyboard pretty much imperative in my dotage. I have done MUCH typing on Russian keyboards, but my most searing experience was as a foreign-language department secretary in the 1970s, when I used an electric typewriter with an IBM Selectric ball, on which the cyrillic characters purported to be the "gosstandart" (to use my colleague's phrase), but uniformly shifted one key to the right. Typing mimeographs and ditto-masters while shifting between English and Russian was hell. I now joke with students that I got my Ph.D "because "I didn't type so good," and that I NEVER would have completed my dissertation had not the personal computer become a fact of life in the early 1980s, when I revised draft after draft to incorporate the changes suggested by my readers. While there is merit in developing flexibility in fine-motor coordination, I would suggest that is hardly the top priority in one's linguistic-professiional development! Melissa Smith On 9/17/10 8:29 PM, Dustin Hosseini wrote: > I'm not sure if anyone has thought about this, but changing the keyboard > layout on any PC or Mac is exceedingly easy these days. All a student has > to do is add the keyboard layout and apply it. > > Macs come with the normal and "phonetic" Russian keyboards as a standard. > With PCs, and a Windows-based computer with unrestricted access can easily > be modified to suit the needs of the user. > > Therefore, these arguments about learners being faced with a Russian > "gosstandart" keyboard layout in Russia are all completely invalid. > > Let the learners choose what is best for them, after all, teachers are there > to facilitate their learning, not dictate it. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------ Melissa T. Smith, Professor Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures Youngstown State University Youngstown, OH 44555 Tel: (330)941-3462 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU Sat Sep 18 20:43:35 2010 From: mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU (Melissa Smith) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 16:43:35 -0400 Subject: Reading list for folklore volunteers Message-ID: "The Russian's World: Life and Language," by Genevra Gerhart, should top the list! On 9/17/10 3:06 PM, Genevra Gerhart wrote: > Ladies and gentlemen, > > A friend has asked me to supply a reading list of books that might be > helpful to foreigners who will be helping out on folklore expeditions in > rural Russia. The books must be fiction, in English, and mostly set in the > countryside. > > Mail to Margaret at mmck at sccd.ctc.edu, or maybe the list would be > interested? > > Thanks for any help you can give. > > > > Genevra Gerhart > > > > ggerhart at comcast.net > > > > www.genevragerhart.com > > www.russiancommonknowledge.com > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------ Melissa T. Smith, Professor Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures Youngstown State University Youngstown, OH 44555 Tel: (330)941-3462 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From steiger at ROGERS.COM Sat Sep 18 20:43:53 2010 From: steiger at ROGERS.COM (Krystyna Steiger) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 16:43:53 -0400 Subject: Izmailovsky polk / Regiment Message-ID: Dear list members, can anyone tell me whether the Izmailovsky polk in St. Petersburg was still an active regiment, housing and deploying troops, by the time of the October revolution, or am I way off? Also, can it be translated simply as the Izmailovsky Regiment (for polk, as it is in the original text), or must it be Izamailovsky 'Life-Guards' Regiment? Thanks in advance and best regards to all, Krystyna _______________________ Krystyna Steiger, PhD Literary Translation steiger at rogers.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Sat Sep 18 21:31:00 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 17:31:00 -0400 Subject: Russian handwriting in US classrooms in the computer age In-Reply-To: <16776310.1284842347087.JavaMail.mtsmith02@ysu.edu> Message-ID: Melissa Smith wrote: > To add some personal anecdotes to the discussion: > > As an American who learned to touch-type in her teens, I can still > recite the repetitive training mantra "A S D F space, J K L semicolon L > K J"), and thus find the phonetic keyboard pretty much imperative in my > dotage. I have done MUCH typing on Russian keyboards, but my most > searing experience was as a foreign-language department secretary in > the 1970s, when I used an electric typewriter with an IBM Selectric > ball, on which the cyrillic characters purported to be the > "gosstandart" (to use my colleague's phrase), but uniformly shifted one > key to the right. Typing mimeographs and ditto-masters while shifting > between English and Russian was hell. I now joke with students that I > got my Ph.D "because "I didn't type so good," and that I NEVER would > have completed my dissertation had not the personal computer become a > fact of life in the early 1980s, when I revised draft after draft to > incorporate the changes suggested by my readers. > > While there is merit in developing flexibility in fine-motor > coordination, I would suggest that is hardly the top priority in one's > linguistic-professiional development! Everyone has different preferences and learning styles. I find it difficult to type Russian with a phonetic keyboard because I get interference from English. Using the Russian keyboard helps me keep the two languages separate, and I got pretty quick at it once the first year had passed. I can't say what your students' reactions would be, but some of them may be similar to mine. I stopped a year short of my Ph.D. -- perhaps because I'm a good typist... -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From nataliek at UALBERTA.CA Sat Sep 18 21:53:04 2010 From: nataliek at UALBERTA.CA (nataliek at UALBERTA.CA) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 15:53:04 -0600 Subject: Help with Balkan Folklore Message-ID: Dear List Members, I got a query from Dilek Songur, a student in Turkey interested in looking at the image of the Turk in Balkan folklore. He found Vasa D. Mihailovich 'Tales from the Heart of the Balkans.' What else would you suggest? He is interested in secondary as well as primary sources. You can write to him directly at dsongur at hotmail.com. Or post to the list. I myself would be interested in the answer to this query. Natalie Kononenko Kule Chair of Ukrainian Ethnography Editor, Folklorica University of Alberta Modern Languages and Cultural Studies 200 Arts Building Edmonton, Alberta, Canada T6G 2E6 Phone: 780-492-6810 Web: http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/uvp/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ggerhart at COMCAST.NET Sat Sep 18 22:04:58 2010 From: ggerhart at COMCAST.NET (Genevra Gerhart) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 15:04:58 -0700 Subject: FW: [SEELANGS] Reading list for folklore volunteers Message-ID: My friend Margaret, below, describes well what she is looking for: Genevra Gerhart ggerhart at comcast.net www.genevragerhart.com www.russiancommonknowledge.com -----Original Message----- From: Mckibben, Margaret [mailto:mmck at sccd.ctc.edu] Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 5:38 PM To: nataliek at UALBERTA.CA Cc: Genevra Gerhart Subject: RE: [SEELANGS] Reading list for folklore volunteers Ah, Natalie, your book and Ivanits' book have long been on the list! There is no lack of good scholarly material on Russian folklore which is accessible to the general English-speaking reader. And experience shows that Western volunteers on folklore expeditions generally "get it" when it comes to recording stories or songs or photographing textiles. What they don't get are the everyday lives of informants. The role of alcohol, male precedence, ramshackle exteriors with spotless interiors, the litanies of personal woes, nostalgia for the Soviet past, notions of responsibility, who's really in charge. There is material here for a library of scholarly treatises, but a working knowledge of the territory is most easily absorbed through fiction. Should I suddenly find myself immersed in genteel society of 1860s Concord, my memories of Alcott's Little Women books would be a pretty good starting point for understanding my new milieu. If I could find the equivalent for a Kruschev-era kolkhoz, I'd be delighted. Margaret ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Adrienne_Harris at BAYLOR.EDU Sat Sep 18 22:17:22 2010 From: Adrienne_Harris at BAYLOR.EDU (Harris, Adrienne M.) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 17:17:22 -0500 Subject: Help with Balkan Folklore In-Reply-To: <20100918155304.11954g198y02zns4@webmail.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: Dear Natalie, It's quite old, but he might want to look at "Hero Tales and Legends of the Serbians," by Woislav M. Petrovitch. The volume includes color illustrations, a pre-WWI map of the Balkans, a glossary and index. All the best, Adrienne Adrienne M. Harris, Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Russian Modern Foreign Languages Baylor University One Bear Place #97391 Waco, TX 76798-7391 (254) 710-3898 Adrienne_Harris at baylor.edu -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of nataliek at UALBERTA.CA Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 4:53 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] Help with Balkan Folklore Dear List Members, I got a query from Dilek Songur, a student in Turkey interested in looking at the image of the Turk in Balkan folklore. He found Vasa D. Mihailovich 'Tales from the Heart of the Balkans.' What else would you suggest? He is interested in secondary as well as primary sources. You can write to him directly at dsongur at hotmail.com. Or post to the list. I myself would be interested in the answer to this query. Natalie Kononenko Kule Chair of Ukrainian Ethnography Editor, Folklorica University of Alberta Modern Languages and Cultural Studies 200 Arts Building Edmonton, Alberta, Canada T6G 2E6 Phone: 780-492-6810 Web: http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/uvp/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kmharkness at GMAIL.COM Sun Sep 19 06:16:08 2010 From: kmharkness at GMAIL.COM (Kristen Harkness) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 02:16:08 -0400 Subject: Spellcheck for Word Windows and Mac In-Reply-To: <2092833782.5381061284599406885.JavaMail.root@zcs.TCNJ.EDU> Message-ID: I'm late catching up with the list again, but hopefully helpful. Macs have built-in Russian spellcheck for native programs. So I work mostly in Pages (which can export into a Word document) when writing in Russian. An inexpensive workaround for your students who can't afford to shell out $$ for Russian spell check for MS Word for Mac and don't want to get Pages (though they may have a demo version on their computer) is to type their essays in TextEdit. You can't make "fancy" documents with footnotes and such in TextEdit, but it does come standard with Macs and does just fine for basic document needs. Kristen Kristen M. Harkness, PhD Instructor, Division of Art College of Creative Arts West Virginia University Instructor, College of General Studies University of Pittsburgh kmharkness at gmail.com On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Benjamin Rifkin wrote: > Dear SEELANGers: > > > If you use Russian spellcheck in Word for Windows or Mac platform and like your spellcheck program, could you please say what you're using and where you got it? > > > I myself use Mac but I have students who are Mac and Windows users. > > > Thanks for your recommendations. > > > Sincerely, > > > Ben Rifkin > The College of New Jersey > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >  Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >  options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >                    http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ameliede at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Sep 19 07:00:41 2010 From: ameliede at EARTHLINK.NET (J F Levin) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 00:00:41 -0700 Subject: Soviet sociolinguistics In-Reply-To: <9B55785EA179DA42AAA6EA7F7DC9DB90A99E930A86@CMS01.campus.gl a.ac.uk> Message-ID: At 06:39 AM 9/18/2010, you wrote: >One can think of several more or less good >reasons why sociolinguistic research is or has >been difficult to conduct in Soviet and >post-Soviet Russia. There is, though, a >4-volume study called òÕÓÓËÉÊ ÑÚÙË É ÓÏ×ÅÔÓËÏÅ >ÏÂÝÅÓÔ×Ï [Russkij jazyk i sovetskoe >obshchestvo], edited by M.V. Panov and published >in 1968. Not quite today's language, perhaps, >but from what I remember (I haven't got the >volumes to hand), there is a great deal of >statistical data of a type which I don't think >can be found anywhere else. And, though there >are a number of general surveys of post-Soviet >Russian, I am not aware of anything that goes >into anything like that level of detail. I published a review article of two Soviet sociolinguistic books. One had many statistical data based on questionnaires of native speakers. Here is the reference: L. P. Krysin & D. N. Shmelev (eds.): Social'no-ling- visticheskie issledovanija and J. D. Desheriev: Social' naja lingvistika. Language in Society, X: 1 (April 1981), 85-96. Jules Levin Los Angeles ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Sun Sep 19 11:08:33 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 07:08:33 -0400 Subject: Soviet sociolinguistics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thankd, Jules. Krysin and D. Shmelev (there is also A.D. Shmelev, his son, also excellent) were very good. Krysin still is. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Sun Sep 19 11:22:25 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 07:22:25 -0400 Subject: FYI: Ukrainian Baroque In-Reply-To: <20100919070833.AFX13991@mstore-prod-2.pdc.uis.georgetown.edu> Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, These are excellent musicians. If anyone is in NYC around Oct.15, please come to the concert at the Ukrainian Museum on 6th Street: http://www.ukrainianmuseum.org/shop/display.php?cartid=201009190000661&zid=1&lid=1&psku=tkt101015&mode=sp o.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Sun Sep 19 15:11:10 2010 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 11:11:10 -0400 Subject: Soviet sociolinguistics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The most famous socio-linguist in Soviet times was Bondaletov, as far as I know.: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B2,_%D0%92%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%94%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87 He studied ARGO languages, that is professional and secret languages of various professions (including blatnaja muzyka, of course). Here are a few citations from Scholar.google.com: [CITATION] Социальная лингвистика ВД Бондалетов - 1984 - Рязанский гос. педагог. институт Cited by 81 - Related articles [CITATION] Русская ономастика ВД Бондалетов - 1983 - " Просвещение" Cited by 95 - Related articles [CITATION] Условные языки русских ремесленников и торговцев ВД Бондалетов - Вып. I. Условные языки как особый тип социальных …, 1974 Cited by 18 - Related articles [CITATION] Теория языка А Хроленко, ВД Бондалетов - 2004 - mce.biophys.msu.ru ... Книги. Категория: Лингвистика и филология. Языки. Хроленко А.Т., Бондалетов В.Д. Теория языка. Купить на OZON.ru Флинта, 2006. 528 стр. (твёрдый переплёт). ISBN 978-5-89349- 583-6. Ориентировочная цена в книжном киоске Конференции 340 рублей. ... Cited by 9 - Related articles - Cached - All 4 versions [CITATION] Средства выражения эмоционально-экспрессивных оттенков в русских личных именах ВД Бондалетов, ЕФ Данилина - Антропонимика. М, 1970 To my chagrin I don't know of any socio-linguistic studies of phonetics in Russian. I would love to see the description of various social groups in one city, let's say Moscow, "valley girls" vs. working class vs. market salesmen/women. Sep 19, 2010, в 3:00 AM, J F Levin написал(а): > I published a review article of two Soviet sociolinguistic books. > One had many statistical data based on questionnaires of native > speakers. Here is the reference: > L. P. Krysin & D. N. Shmelev (eds.): Social'no-ling- visticheskie > issledovanija and J. D. Desheriev: Social' naja lingvistika. > Language in Society, X: 1 (April 1981), 85-96. > Alina Israeli Associate Professor of Russian LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave. Washington DC 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From brett-cooke at TAMU.EDU Sun Sep 19 17:52:42 2010 From: brett-cooke at TAMU.EDU (Brett Cooke) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 12:52:42 -0500 Subject: Moscow bed and breakfast Message-ID: Dear Colleagues: We are looking for a bed and breakfast or something in the way of cheaper accomodations in Moscow for late October. If you have any suggestions, please reply offlist, directly to brett-cooke at tamu.edu Thanks! Brett Cooke Texas A&M University ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sforres1 at SWARTHMORE.EDU Sun Sep 19 18:31:04 2010 From: sforres1 at SWARTHMORE.EDU (Sibelan Forrester) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 14:31:04 -0400 Subject: FW: [SEELANGS] Reading list for folklore volunteers In-Reply-To: <000901cb577d$88aba570$9a02f050$@net> Message-ID: Dear Genevra, For your friend's purpose, I would strongly recommend Margaret Paxson's SOLOVYOVO: THE STORY OF MEMORY IN A RUSSIAN VILLAGE (2005). It's full of evocative photographs, snippets of dialogue drawn from her extensive ethnography of villagers living in the region of Belozersk, and good discussion of how present-day memory in a neglected part of Russia stretches through the Soviet period into a more distant past. It's not fiction, but it certainly grabs and holds the reader's interest. Best wishes, Sibelan Forrester On 9/18/10 6:04 PM, Genevra Gerhart wrote: > My friend Margaret, below, describes well what she is looking for: > > Genevra Gerhart > > ggerhart at comcast.net > > www.genevragerhart.com > www.russiancommonknowledge.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mckibben, Margaret [mailto:mmck at sccd.ctc.edu] > Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 5:38 PM > To: nataliek at UALBERTA.CA > Cc: Genevra Gerhart > Subject: RE: [SEELANGS] Reading list for folklore volunteers > > Ah, Natalie, your book and Ivanits' book have long been on the list! > > There is no lack of good scholarly material on Russian folklore which is > accessible to the general English-speaking reader. And experience shows > that Western volunteers on folklore expeditions generally "get it" when it > comes to recording stories or songs or photographing textiles. > > What they don't get are the everyday lives of informants. The role of > alcohol, male precedence, ramshackle exteriors with spotless interiors, the > litanies of personal woes, nostalgia for the Soviet past, notions of > responsibility, who's really in charge. There is material here for a > library of scholarly treatises, but a working knowledge of the territory is > most easily absorbed through fiction. > > Should I suddenly find myself immersed in genteel society of 1860s Concord, > my memories of Alcott's Little Women books would be a pretty good starting > point for understanding my new milieu. If I could find the equivalent for a > Kruschev-era kolkhoz, I'd be delighted. > > Margaret > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ameliede at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Sep 19 19:14:06 2010 From: ameliede at EARTHLINK.NET (J F Levin) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 12:14:06 -0700 Subject: Soviet sociolinguistics In-Reply-To: <4C66C2FD-74FA-4A61-966B-DFDD16FB13A3@american.edu> Message-ID: At 08:11 AM 9/19/2010, you wrote: >To my chagrin I don't know of any socio-linguistic studies of >phonetics in Russian. I would love to see the description of various >social groups in one city, let's say Moscow, "valley girls" vs. >working class vs. market salesmen/women. The results of the questionnaire I referred to that was reported in one of the two books mentioned in my review article (see below) included much phonological data, all in the speech of "filologi", defined as people in Moscow who made a living from words--college students, intelligentzia, etc. The parameters were defined in detail in the book. [I am writing this from memory, since I do not have a copy of my own article in front of me--so I may be inaccurate in details] Some of the phonic details [NB I am being noncommital re phonemic status] were things like hardening of /r'/ and /n'/ before palatalized consonants. One of my criticisms was that the pre-selected sample, while okay in quantity, deliberately excluded the possibility of class distinctions that you point to above. I attributed this to a reluctance to discuss such possible class issues back then. There were some interesting parameters (age, profession, male vs female speakers?), but some were ignored (as I recall, and I confess that as I write this more memories are coming back), e.g., speakers whose parents were not native speakers of Russian (what % of Moscovites in the '80's?) were included in the survey, but were not separated out in the statistics. Jules Levin >ep 19, 2010, â 3:00 AM, J F Levin íàïèñàë): > >>I published a review article of two Soviet sociolinguistic books. >>One had many statistical data based on questionnaires of native >>speakers. Here is the reference: >>L. P. Krysin & D. N. Shmelev (eds.): Social'no-lingvisticheskie >>issledovanija and J. D. Desheriev: Social'naja lingvistika. >>Language in Society, X: 1 (April 1981), 85-96. > >Alina Israeli >Associate Professor of Russian >LFS, American University >4400 Massachusetts Ave. >Washington DC 20016 >(202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 >aisrael at american.edu > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Sep 19 20:38:32 2010 From: anne_mariedevlin at HOTMAIL.COM (anne marie devlin) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 21:38:32 +0100 Subject: Soviet sociolinguistics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There was a poster presentation at the recent EuroSLA conference comparing prosodic patterns between female L1 and L2 users of Russian. You might find something of interest there. I don't have a link but if you google the following you'll find a link. Riikka Ullakonoja, Department of Languages, University of Jyväskylä, Finland. AM > Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 12:14:06 -0700 > From: ameliede at EARTHLINK.NET > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Soviet sociolinguistics > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > At 08:11 AM 9/19/2010, you wrote: > > >To my chagrin I don't know of any socio-linguistic studies of > >phonetics in Russian. I would love to see the description of various > >social groups in one city, let's say Moscow, "valley girls" vs. > >working class vs. market salesmen/women. > The results of the questionnaire I referred to > that was reported in one of the two > books mentioned in my review article (see below) > included much phonological data, > all in the speech of "filologi", defined as > people in Moscow who made a living from words--college > students, intelligentzia, etc. The parameters > were defined in detail in the book. [I am writing this from > memory, since I do not have a copy of my own > article in front of me--so I may be inaccurate in details] > Some of the phonic details [NB I am being > noncommital re phonemic status] were things like hardening > of /r'/ and /n'/ before palatalized consonants. > One of my criticisms was that the pre-selected > sample, while okay in quantity, deliberately excluded the possibility > of class distinctions that you point to above. I > attributed this to a reluctance to discuss such possible class issues back > then. There were some interesting parameters > (age, profession, male vs female speakers?), but > some were ignored (as I recall, and I confess > that as I write this more memories are coming > back), e.g., speakers whose parents were not > native speakers of Russian (what % of Moscovites > in the '80's?) were included in the survey, but > were not separated out in the statistics. > Jules Levin > > >ep 19, 2010, â 3:00 AM, J F Levin íàïèñàë): > > > >>I published a review article of two Soviet sociolinguistic books. > >>One had many statistical data based on questionnaires of native > >>speakers. Here is the reference: > >>L. P. Krysin & D. N. Shmelev (eds.): Social'no-lingvisticheskie > >>issledovanija and J. D. Desheriev: Social'naja lingvistika. > >>Language in Society, X: 1 (April 1981), 85-96. > > > >Alina Israeli > >Associate Professor of Russian > >LFS, American University > >4400 Massachusetts Ave. > >Washington DC 20016 > >(202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 > >aisrael at american.edu > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Sun Sep 19 20:53:10 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 21:53:10 +0100 Subject: Tsar'-devitsa translation question Message-ID: Dear all, This is from a lesser-known variant of the story. Ivan is, of course, the third son: This made Ivan Tsarevich angry. He said, ‘Father, great lord and hope! If you grant me your blessing and forgiveness, I shall ride away. And if you do not grant me your blessing and forgiveness, I shall still ride away.’ And the tsar ordered him to be given the best horse, as if he were about to go hunting. The last words are no more than a blind guess on my part. Here is the Russian: И царь приказал наилучшего коня дать, когда пущай по охоте поедет. Am I right in understanding по охоте as being to do with hunting rather than wishing? And who is the subject of поедет? Ivan – or his father the tsar? All the best, Robert ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Sun Sep 19 21:13:30 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 22:13:30 +0100 Subject: Tsar'-devitsa translation question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: OR IS IT And the tsar ordered him to be given the best horse, so that he might ride wherever he wished. ?? R. > Dear all, > > This is from a lesser-known variant of the story. Ivan is, of course, the > third son: > > This made Ivan Tsarevich angry. He said, ‘Father, great lord > and hope! If you grant me your blessing and forgiveness, I shall ride away. > And if you do not grant me your blessing and forgiveness, I shall still ride > away.’ > And the tsar ordered him to be given the best horse, as if he > were about to go hunting. > > The last words are no more than a blind guess on my part. Here is the > Russian: > И царь приказал наилучшего коня дать, когда пущай по охоте поедет. > > Am I right in understanding по охоте as being to do with hunting rather than > wishing? And who is the subject of поедет? Ivan – or his father the tsar? > > All the best, > > Robert > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rar at SLAVIC.UMASS.EDU Sun Sep 19 21:24:14 2010 From: rar at SLAVIC.UMASS.EDU (Robert A. Rothstein) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 17:24:14 -0400 Subject: Soviet sociolinguistics In-Reply-To: <9B55785EA179DA42AAA6EA7F7DC9DB90A99E930A86@CMS01.campus.gla.ac.uk> Message-ID: John Dunn wrote: > There is, though, a 4-volume study called Русский язык и советское общество [Russkij jazyk i sovetskoe obshchestvo], edited by M.V. Panov and published in 1968. The subtitle of the 4-volume edition was "Sotsiologo-lingvisticheskoe issledovanie." Individual volumes were devoted to "Leksika/Slovoobrazovanie/Morfologiia i sintaksis/Fonetika/ sovremennogo russkogo iazyka." Accompanying this project (which was intended to mark the fiftieth anniversary of the October Revolution) was a series of collective volumes with parallel titles: "Razvitie sintaksisa (leksiki/fonetiki/funktsional'nykh stilei/slovoobrazovaniia/grammatiki i leksiki) sovremennogo russkogo iazyka" published between 1963 and 1968. There were also volumes called "Razvitie sovremennogo russkogo iazyka" (1963) and "Razvitie sovremennogo russkogo iazyka 1972" (1975) and a 1974 volume called "Russkii iazyk po dannym massovogo obsledovaniia. Opyt sotsial'no-lingvisticheskogo izucheniia." There were also two editions of I. F. Protchenko's "Leksika i slovoobrazovanie russkogo iazyka sovetskoi epokhi. Sotsiolingvisticheskii aspekt," the second expanded edition in 1985. There was also a series of studies of "Russkaia razgovornaia rech'." Bob Rothstein ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From enthorsen at GMAIL.COM Sun Sep 19 22:39:36 2010 From: enthorsen at GMAIL.COM (Elise Thorsen) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 18:39:36 -0400 Subject: Graduate Student CFP: Studies in Slavic Cultures X Message-ID: *Studies in Slavic Cultures* is now accepting submissions for the 2011 issue. The theme of this issue is “Postmodernism” and we welcome graduate student submissions investigating any aspect of this topic in relation to literary, visual, performative, and other areas of contemporary culture in Russia and Eastern Europe. We understand postmodernism to mean a cultural tendency emerging globally in the wake of World War II. Beginning in the 1970s, the particular iteration of postmodernism of the Soviet bloc responds to the tropes of modernity and the imposed aesthetic practice of Socialist Realism, among other things. The demise of the Soviet Union brought about an explosion of new texts as artists eagerly appropriated and reworked a plethora of previously unexplored themes, images, and material from both East and West. The question is now open as to whether postmodernism is at an end, whether all texts are finally played out, and whether the author is really and truly dead. We propose no solution to this question, but seek rather to explore what may be the outermost limits of this period. Submissions should concern texts produced within the bounds of postmodernism, as defined above. We understand “text” in the widest sense possible, from the monumental trace of architecture to the ephemera of performance art. Interdisciplinary and comparative approaches to postmodernism, postmodernity, and the postmodern condition will be considered. Deadline for submissions is December 1, 2010. Queries and submissions should be sent to Hillary Brevig and Elise Thorsen at sisc at pitt.edu. --- Elise Thorsen PhD Student University of Pittsburgh Department of Slavic Languages & Literatures Cathedral of Learning 1417 Pittsburgh, PA 15260 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From edseelangs at GMAIL.COM Sun Sep 19 22:42:24 2010 From: edseelangs at GMAIL.COM (Edward Dumanis) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 18:42:24 -0400 Subject: Tsar'-devitsa translation question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You need to include more Russian text to understand it, but I do not think it has anything to do with hunting. Sincerely, Edward Dumanis 2010/9/19 Robert Chandler : > OR IS IT > > And the tsar ordered him to be given the best horse, so that he might ride > wherever he wished. > > ?? > > R. > > > >> Dear all, >> >> This is from a lesser-known variant of the story. Ivan is, of course, the >> third son: >> >> This made Ivan Tsarevich angry. He said, 'Father, great lord >> and hope! If you grant me your blessing and forgiveness, I shall ride away. >> And if you do not grant me your blessing and forgiveness, I shall still ride >> away.' >> And the tsar ordered him to be given the best horse, as if he >> were about to go hunting. >> >> The last words are no more than a blind guess on my part. Here is the >> Russian: >> И царь приказал наилучшего коня дать, когда пущай по охоте поедет. >> >> Am I right in understanding по охоте as being to do with hunting rather than >> wishing? And who is the subject of поедет? Ivan - or his father the tsar? >> >> All the best, >> >> Robert >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From irina.dolgova at YALE.EDU Mon Sep 20 00:33:52 2010 From: irina.dolgova at YALE.EDU (Irina Dolgova) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 20:33:52 -0400 Subject: Tsar'-devitsa translation question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Robert, You are right. It's the same is "kuda ugodno", "kuda emu okhota" = "khochrtsia". Po + dative as is "according to his wish". Compare: Ona bol'shaia okhotnitsa do varen'a. It's out dated of course but the connection with "prostorechie" Mne (ne) okhota is still very strong. Irina On 9/19/2010 5:13 PM, Robert Chandler wrote: > OR IS IT > > And the tsar ordered him to be given the best horse, so that he might ride > wherever he wished. > > ?? > > R. > > > > >> Dear all, >> >> This is from a lesser-known variant of the story. Ivan is, of course, the >> third son: >> >> This made Ivan Tsarevich angry. He said, ‘Father, great lord >> and hope! If you grant me your blessing and forgiveness, I shall ride away. >> And if you do not grant me your blessing and forgiveness, I shall still ride >> away.’ >> And the tsar ordered him to be given the best horse, as if he >> were about to go hunting. >> >> The last words are no more than a blind guess on my part. Here is the >> Russian: >> И царь приказал наилучшего коня дать, когда пущай по охоте поедет. >> >> Am I right in understanding по охоте as being to do with hunting rather than >> wishing? And who is the subject of поедет? Ivan – or his father the tsar? >> >> All the best, >> >> Robert >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Mon Sep 20 01:25:07 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 21:25:07 -0400 Subject: Soviet sociolinguistics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Prosody was a topic much treated by Sandro Kodzasov (Moscow, of Georgian origin) and his students. He is wonderful. o.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From natalia.pylypiuk at UALBERTA.CA Mon Sep 20 00:58:08 2010 From: natalia.pylypiuk at UALBERTA.CA (Natalia Pylypiuk) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 18:58:08 -0600 Subject: Invitation to a talk next Sunday, September 26, 2010 (Divine Wisdom) Message-ID: Dear Colleagues and Friends, If you live in New York city (or nearby), I cordially invite you to my talk: "Why Did Sophia Let Her Hair Down? Representations of Divine Wisdom in the Age of Mazepa" on Sunday, September 26, 2010, at 2:00 pm, at the Ukrainian Museum in New York 222 East 6th Street, NY 10003 This illustrated lecture explores Ukrainian imagery depicting Divine Wisdom at the end of the XVIIth century and debunks a myth perpetrated for more than a century by historians of Russian art. The presentation focuses on a now lost painting bearing the imprint of political ideology during Mazepa’s hetmancy. The political implications of Wisdom iconography remain relevant today. This talk is part of a series organized in conjunction with the current exhibitions Ukraine-Sweden: At the Crossroads of History (XVII- XVIII Centuries) and Mazepa in Print. For more information, visit: http://www.ukrainianmuseum.org/ A reception will follow the lecture and Q&A period. I look forward to seeing you next Sunday. Natalia Pylypiuk Ukrainian Culture, Language & Literature Program [www.arts.ualberta.ca/~ukraina/] Modern Languages & Cultural Studies University of Alberta ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From franssuasso at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Sep 20 12:00:12 2010 From: franssuasso at HOTMAIL.COM (Frans Suasso) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 14:00:12 +0200 Subject: Snimat' In-Reply-To: <289367.90060.qm@web84202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Op 17-9-2010 13:37, STEPHEN MARDER schreef: >> The 4th edn, as far as I know, was just a reprint of the 3rd, which >> was a "ispravlennoe i znachitelʹno dopolnennoe izdanie" edited by Jan >> Baudouin de Courtenay, i.e. not the same as the 2nd edition. I have >> never understood why the 2nd edn is almost always the one which is >> reprinted, and the one which is found online (but I believe there was >> 1994 reprint of 4th edn in Moscow). Possibly because it contained >> netsenzurnye slova? It is quite hard to find and when I last looked it >> was expensive on the secondhand book market (about £250). > > The third edition is available online and can be downloaded (in DjVu format): > > http://runivers.ru/lib/detail.php?ID=540065 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It took me over 25 years to find an affordable copy (reprint) of the Dal'/ de Courtenay dictionary. A few years ago I found one at Kniga.com.: Four volumes Moskva, Olma Press 2001. It is a reprint of the third edition. It is in post 1917 orthography and does contain the obscenities. Amazon.com offers various editions of Dal's dictionnary. a.o. the one I have, for a very easonable price. The downloadable edition you refer to has the big disadvantage that is has the pre-1917 orhography. For book that is no problem. When you want to look up a word in a dictionary, you have to know how it written. You have to know e.g. that Mir (village community) and Mir (peace) were written differently. I you look up a word that starts with "e", you have to know which "e"it was before 1917 and where it stood in the alphabet. If you want to have a Dal": Try to find a four volume edition published after 2000 in a modern spelling. Many online dictionaries are abridged, adapted for children, or you may face (as I do) problems wih looking up things because of the order in the old alphabet, Frans Suasso ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rifkin at TCNJ.EDU Mon Sep 20 14:07:49 2010 From: rifkin at TCNJ.EDU (Benjamin Rifkin) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 10:07:49 -0400 Subject: Spellcheck for Word Windows and Mac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks to all for your great suggestions on this topic. Ben Rifkin The College of New Jersey ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Mon Sep 20 17:43:49 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 18:43:49 +0100 Subject: Northern dialect and missing, probably obscene, words in skazka Message-ID: Dear all, I am reading this particular version of “Tsar’-devitsa” as scanned from a microfilm of a copy of Zhivaya starina from the late 1890s. And it is in dialect. Sometimes there are words I can’t quite make out. Can anyone guess what the following is likely to be? ‘и взял себе тесьменные БРОЗЬЕ и церкасско седло. И подтягивал своего добраго коня. Another problem is that the editors chose to leave out certain words they consider improper. Instead they just put dots .... What are the missing words likely to be here? The hero has just entered Baba Yaga’s hut and is cross with her for asking him questions instead of feeding him. Тут добрый молодец как прискочет к старухе: “Дам тебе поушину – будет от .... отдушина! а там как песок посыпется – будет с .... песок. Ты бы, старушка, неучилась-то много богатыря спрашивать ь училасх бы кормить да поить! Am I right in thinking he is going to hit her so hard on the ears that she will be farting out of her arse? And that sand will then be coming out of her arse? I think so, but I would be grateful for either confirmation or correction! All the best, Robert ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From evprok at WM.EDU Mon Sep 20 20:02:08 2010 From: evprok at WM.EDU (evprok at WM.EDU) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 16:02:08 -0400 Subject: Northern dialect and missing, probably obscene, words in skazka In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Robert, judging by the context "БРОЗЬЕ" is a dialectical version of БРАЗДЫ (reins)? The missing words are unclear. In fact, we don't know how many words are replaced by the ellipsis. Elena Prokhorova, Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Russian Director, Russian and Post-Soviet Studies Program Modern Languages Department Film Studies Faculty College of William and Mary (757) 221-7755 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Mon Sep 20 22:44:42 2010 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 23:44:42 +0100 Subject: Northern dialect and missing, probably obscene, words in skazka In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Robert, Three websites give this: Дам тебе поушину, будет в спине отдушина; дам в висок - посыплется песок. Il'ia Muromets was a little outspoken than you had suspected (unless this is bowdlerized)! Will On 20/09/2010 18:43, Robert Chandler wrote: > Дам тебе поушину – будет от .... отдушина ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Tue Sep 21 05:15:20 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 06:15:20 +0100 Subject: Northern dialect and missing, probably obscene, words in skazka Message-ID: Dear all, Several people have written to say that they have found the following quote on-line: “Дам тебе поушину, будет в спине отдушина; дам в висок - посыплется песок.” The speaker here is Ilya Muromets. But I am asking about something different: a version of “Tsar’-devitsa” recorded in the late 1890s. The hero is Ivan Tsarevich, the third of three brothers. Here he has just entered Baba Yaga’s hut and is cross with her for asking him questions instead of feeding him. The passage actually occurs three tines. Here is the first. Тут добрый молодец как прискочет к старухе: “Дам тебе поушину – будет от .... отдушина! а там как песок посыпется – будет с .... песок. Ты бы, старушка, неучилась-то много богатыря спрашивать - училась бы кормить да поить! And here is how it occurs the second and third times: прискочет к старухе и замахается: “Я тебе так дам поушину – будет из .... отдушина! дам в висок – из .... посыпется песок. Тhe ellipses are clearly intended, and the folktale collector would have had no reason to omit в спине. So I repeat my question: am I likely to be right in thinking he is going to hit her so hard on the ears that she will be farting out of her arse? All the best, Robert ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From k2kingdom at GMAIL.COM Tue Sep 21 13:14:27 2010 From: k2kingdom at GMAIL.COM (Mark Kingdom) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 16:14:27 +0300 Subject: Is it the use of Dative vs Accusative that clarifies the meaning of =?KOI8-R?Q?=F5=DE=C9=D4=D8=3F?= Message-ID: Hi All, Я *учу** *друга русскому языку. My sources tell me this sentence would translate as: I am *teaching *a friend Russian. Yet: Я *учу** *стихотворение. This translates as, "I am *learning** *a poem." So, a sentence like this: Я учу русский язык. ...is it clear if I am *learning *it, or *teaching *it? I realize a greater context will clarify, but without such context, does it have dual meaning? Or does accusative vs dative clarify? For example: Я учу русскому языку. Does the dative case there somehow imply that now you are teaching an unnamed person the Russian language? I really despise this verb. (In a loving sort of way, of course.) Thanks all, Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From oothappam at earthlink.net Tue Sep 21 13:56:07 2010 From: oothappam at earthlink.net (oothappam) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 06:56:07 -0700 Subject: Is it the use of Dative vs Acc usative that clarifies the meaning of =?UTF-8?Q?=D0=A3=D1=87=D0=B8=D1=82=D1=8C=3F?= Message-ID: I am so glad you posted this question because I have the same problem with this verb. If anyone replies off list to Mark, please reply to me too! Nola oothappam at earthlink.net -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kingdom >Sent: Sep 21, 2010 6:14 AM >To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >Subject: [SEELANGS] Is it the use of Dative vs Accusative that clarifies the meaning of Учить? > >Hi All, > >Я *учу** *друга русскому языку. > >My sources tell me this sentence would translate as: I am *teaching *a >friend Russian. > >Yet: Я *учу** *стихотворение. This translates as, "I am *learning** *a >poem." > >So, a sentence like this: Я учу русский язык. > >...is it clear if I am *learning *it, or *teaching *it? I realize a greater >context will clarify, >but without such context, does it have dual meaning? > >Or does accusative vs dative clarify? For example: > >Я учу русскому языку. > >Does the dative case there somehow imply that now you are teaching an >unnamed person >the Russian language? > >I really despise this verb. (In a loving sort of way, of course.) > >Thanks all, > >Mark > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rmcleminson at POST.SK Tue Sep 21 14:08:12 2010 From: rmcleminson at POST.SK (R. M. Cleminson) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 16:08:12 +0200 Subject: Is it the use of Dative vs Acc usative that clarifies the meaning of =?utf-8?Q?=D0=A3=D1=87=D0=B8=D1=82=D1=8C=3F?= In-Reply-To: <1439435265.59560.1285077922580.JavaMail.root@mbox01.in.post.sk> Message-ID: A quick look at the Russian National Corpus makes it quite clear that учить языку means to teach a language and учить язык means to learn a language. There do not seem to be any instances of ambiguity. ----- Originálna správa ----- Odosielateľ: "Mark Kingdom" Komu: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Dátum: utorok, september 21, 2010 02:14:27 Predmet: [SEELANGS] Is it the use of Dative vs Accusative that clarifies the meaning of Учить? Hi All, Я *учу** *друга русскому языку. My sources tell me this sentence would translate as: I am *teaching *a friend Russian. Yet: Я *учу** *стихотворение. This translates as, "I am *learning** *a poem." So, a sentence like this: Я учу русский язык. ...is it clear if I am *learning *it, or *teaching *it? I realize a greater context will clarify, but without such context, does it have dual meaning? Or does accusative vs dative clarify? For example: Я учу русскому языку. Does the dative case there somehow imply that now you are teaching an unnamed person the Russian language? I really despise this verb. (In a loving sort of way, of course.) Thanks all, Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- _____________________________________________________________________ Aky bol svet v 20. storoci - http://mozaika.sme.sk ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From k2kingdom at GMAIL.COM Tue Sep 21 14:11:35 2010 From: k2kingdom at GMAIL.COM (Mark Kingdom) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 17:11:35 +0300 Subject: Is it the use of Dative vs Acc usativ e that clarifies the meaning of =?KOI8-R?Q?=F5=DE=C9=D4=D8=3F?= In-Reply-To: <1661836385.59633.1285078092407.JavaMail.root@mbox01.in.post.sk> Message-ID: ...and thus, YES, it seems to be the usage of Dative vs Accusative that determines meaning? Я учу стихотворени*ю*. ....now has the meaning of, "I am teaching a poem..." (to an unnamed person.) Just clarifying. Thanks in advance! Mark On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 5:08 PM, R. M. Cleminson wrote: > A quick look at the Russian National Corpus makes it quite clear that учить > языку means to teach a language and учить язык means to learn a language. > There do not seem to be any instances of ambiguity. > > ----- Originálna správa ----- > Odosielateľ: "Mark Kingdom" > Komu: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Dátum: utorok, september 21, 2010 02:14:27 > Predmet: [SEELANGS] Is it the use of Dative vs Accusative that clarifies > the meaning of Учить? > > Hi All, > > Я *учу** *друга русскому языку. > > My sources tell me this sentence would translate as: I am *teaching *a > friend Russian. > > Yet: Я *учу** *стихотворение. This translates as, "I am *learning** *a > poem." > > So, a sentence like this: Я учу русский язык. > > ...is it clear if I am *learning *it, or *teaching *it? I realize a greater > context will clarify, > but without such context, does it have dual meaning? > > Or does accusative vs dative clarify? For example: > > Я учу русскому языку. > > Does the dative case there somehow imply that now you are teaching an > unnamed person > the Russian language? > > I really despise this verb. (In a loving sort of way, of course.) > > Thanks all, > > Mark > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _____________________________________________________________________ > > Aky bol svet v 20. storoci - http://mozaika.sme.sk > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ericson at AMERICANCOUNCILS.ORG Tue Sep 21 16:07:07 2010 From: ericson at AMERICANCOUNCILS.ORG (Brita Ericson) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 11:07:07 -0500 Subject: Scholarships for Language Immersion Program in Russia Message-ID: The application deadline for the Spring 2011 program is quickly approaching! Applications must be postmarked by October 1st, 2010. American Councils for International Education: ACTR/ACCELS invites applications for the 2011 Advanced Russian Language & Area Studies Program (RLASP) in Vladimir, Moscow, or St. Petersburg, Russia. For over 30 years, American Councils has offered quality-assured, intensive language study programs in Russia for thousands of students and scholars. Participants of this program receive approximately twenty hours per week of in-class instruction in Russian grammar, phonetics, conversation, and cultural studies. Students greatly benefit from individual attention in our small classes of 2 to 6 students, and from interaction with host faculty who have extensive experience in second language acquisition. Additionally, qualified participants have the opportunity to take courses with Russians at the local host university in each city as part of our honors program. All participants receive undergraduate- or graduate-level academic credit through Bryn Mawr College. American Councils emphasizes language immersion outside of the academic program as well. During the semester, students may take advantage of volunteer opportunities or internship placements at sites including local public schools, charity organizations, international businesses, and international NGOs. Cultural excursions, discussion groups, and other extracurricular activities in Russian are offered in each city. Students also meet at least two hours a week with peer tutors recruited from the host university. Finally, most students choose to live with Russian host-families where they can become fully immersed in the language, culture and cuisine of Russia. American Councils is able to award substantial scholarships to qualified participants, thanks to significant grant support from the U.S. Department of Education (Fulbright-Hays) and the U.S. Department of State (Title VIII). In addition, recipients of FLAS, Boren, Benjamin A. Gilman and university fellowships frequently apply these funds to study on our programs. The Advanced Russian Language and Area Studies Program is offered in the Summer, Fall, Spring and Academic-Year semesters. American Councils also offers specialized programs for Heritage Speakers and those interested in studying Business Russian. More information and applications are available on our website: www.acrussiaabroad.org. Application Deadlines: Spring Semester: October 1 Summer Program: March 1 Fall/Academic Year: April 1 For more information, please contact: American Councils for International Education: ACTR/ACCELS 1828 L St., NW Suite 1200 Washington, DC 20036 outbound at americancouncils.org www.acrussiaabroad.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Tue Sep 21 16:12:53 2010 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:12:53 -0400 Subject: Is it the use of Dative vs Acc usativ e that clarifies the meaning of =?KOI8-R?Q?=F5=DE=C9=D4=D8=3F?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Учу стихотворению while theoretically possible, not very likely due to the meaning of the verb учить, to teach. It works only with skills: учить читать, писать, ходить, рисовать, дышать, работать, заучивать стихи, писать стихи; учить иностранному языку, танцу, пению, вышиванию, стихосложению etc. "Мemorizing a poem by heart" is not a skill, cannot teach it to others. AI Sep 21, 2010, в 10:11 AM, Mark Kingdom написал(а): > ...and thus, YES, it seems to be the usage of Dative vs Accusative > that > determines meaning? > > Я учу стихотворени*ю*. ....now has the meaning of, "I am teaching a > poem..." (to an unnamed person.) > > Just clarifying. Thanks in advance! > > Mark > > > > > On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 5:08 PM, R. M. Cleminson > wrote: > >> A quick look at the Russian National Corpus makes it quite clear >> that учить >> языку means to teach a language and учить язык means to learn a >> language. >> There do not seem to be any instances of ambiguity. >> >> - Alina Israeli Associate Professor of Russian LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave. Washington DC 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From moss at MIDDLEBURY.EDU Tue Sep 21 16:23:34 2010 From: moss at MIDDLEBURY.EDU (Kevin Moss) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:23:34 -0400 Subject: Is it the use of Dative vs Acc usativ e that clarifies the meaning of =?UTF-8?Q?=D0=A3=D1=87=D0=B8_=D1=82=D1=8C=3F?= In-Reply-To: <743E3661-07A6-4789-947D-A12743D3D3BF@american.edu> Message-ID: There are two different verbs with the same imperfective. Further, you would be highly unlikely to get учить чему WITHOUT a person attached. This one is учить/научить кого чему, and both are usually obligatory. Учить что is instead учить/выучить, which in the imperfective is often informal learning, rather than the kind of studying one does in college. This one you will never have WITHOUT an object On Sep 21, 2010, at 12:12 PM, Alina Israeli wrote: > Учу стихотворению while theoretically possible, not very likely due > to the meaning of the verb учить, to teach. It works only with > skills: учить читать, писать, ходить, рисовать, дышать, работать, > заучивать стихи, писать стихи; учить иностранному языку, танцу, > пению, вышиванию, стихосложению etc. > > "Мemorizing a poem by heart" is not a skill, cannot teach it to > others. > > AI > > Sep 21, 2010, в 10:11 AM, Mark Kingdom написал(а): > >> ...and thus, YES, it seems to be the usage of Dative vs Accusative >> that >> determines meaning? >> >> Я учу стихотворени*ю*. ....now has the meaning of, "I am teaching a >> poem..." (to an unnamed person.) >> >> Just clarifying. Thanks in advance! >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 5:08 PM, R. M. Cleminson >> wrote: >> >>> A quick look at the Russian National Corpus makes it quite clear >>> that учить >>> языку means to teach a language and учить язык means to learn a >>> language. >>> There do not seem to be any instances of ambiguity. >>> >>> - > > Alina Israeli > Associate Professor of Russian > LFS, American University > 4400 Massachusetts Ave. > Washington DC 20016 > (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 > aisrael at american.edu > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From oothappam at earthlink.net Tue Sep 21 16:34:10 2010 From: oothappam at earthlink.net (oothappam) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 09:34:10 -0700 Subject: Beginning Russian language group on Yahoogroups needs more lovers of Russian language Message-ID: Dear SEELANGS members, Do you know any enthusiastic students of Russian who might like to join an online learning/discussion group? Our "RussianI" group on Yahoogroups needs them! We have had the group for 2 years. We have 41 members, most of whom are not posting, and a few very enthusiastic members who try to jeep it going. We need: people to help answer questions- teachers and native speakers, advanced students, AND more interested beginners(or people like me who are still beginners despite having already spent years with this language!) There is another larger, more active Russian language yahoo group, but we started this newer one as there were some hurtful comments going on in the larger group, and some people felt intimidated. We started our newer group as we wanted to provide a safe place for beginners,where they would feel welcome to ask about anything, no matter how basic. I realise that our group is small because I have never made any effort to advertise. I know that each year there are new high school and college students who decide to start their own journeys into these 6 confusing cases and mystifying verbs of motion, and discover that they really do like this language, enough to pursue it further and want some outside help, support and just to have another resource. If you think that you know someone like that, please mention our group. RussianI at yahoogroups.com Thank you! Nola ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Tue Sep 21 16:57:56 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 17:57:56 +0100 Subject: Beginning Russian language group on Yahoogroups needs more lovers of Russian language In-Reply-To: <14424035.1285086851314.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: What is the URL for this group? *enthusiastic and ready to join* Stephanie ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ On 21 September 2010 17:34, oothappam wrote: > Dear SEELANGS members, > > Do you know any enthusiastic students of Russian who might like to join an > online learning/discussion group? > > Our "RussianI" group on Yahoogroups needs them! We have had the group for 2 > years. We have 41 members, most of whom are not posting, and a few very > enthusiastic members who try to jeep it going. We need: people to help > answer questions- teachers and native speakers, advanced students, AND more > interested beginners(or people like me who are still beginners despite > having already spent years with this language!) > > There is another larger, more active Russian language yahoo group, but we > started this newer one as there were some hurtful comments going on in the > larger group, and some people felt intimidated. We started our newer group > as we wanted to provide a safe place for beginners,where they would feel > welcome to ask about anything, no matter how basic. > I realise that our group is small because I have never made any effort to > advertise. I know that each year there are new high school and college > students who decide to start their own journeys into these 6 confusing cases > and mystifying verbs of motion, and discover that they really do like this > language, enough to pursue it further and want some outside help, support > and just to have another resource. If you think that you know someone like > that, please mention our group. RussianI at yahoogroups.com > > Thank you! > > Nola > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From oothappam at earthlink.net Tue Sep 21 17:17:11 2010 From: oothappam at earthlink.net (oothappam) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:17:11 -0700 Subject: Beginning Russian language group on Yahoogroups needs more lovers of Russian language Message-ID: Hi Stephanie! Oh, yes, I should have included this! Thank you for reminding me. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RussianI/ Or you can go to www.yahoogroups.com and put RussianI in the search ox, if you lose the url. Nola -----Original Message----- >From: Stephanie Briggs >Sent: Sep 21, 2010 9:57 AM >To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Beginning Russian language group on Yahoogroups needs more lovers of Russian language > >What is the URL for this group? *enthusiastic and ready to join* > >Stephanie > >***************************** >~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs >http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ > >Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! >THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! >http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ > > > > >On 21 September 2010 17:34, oothappam wrote: > >> Dear SEELANGS members, >> >> Do you know any enthusiastic students of Russian who might like to join an >> online learning/discussion group? >> >> Our "RussianI" group on Yahoogroups needs them! We have had the group for 2 >> years. We have 41 members, most of whom are not posting, and a few very >> enthusiastic members who try to jeep it going. We need: people to help >> answer questions- teachers and native speakers, advanced students, AND more >> interested beginners(or people like me who are still beginners despite >> having already spent years with this language!) >> >> There is another larger, more active Russian language yahoo group, but we >> started this newer one as there were some hurtful comments going on in the >> larger group, and some people felt intimidated. We started our newer group >> as we wanted to provide a safe place for beginners,where they would feel >> welcome to ask about anything, no matter how basic. >> I realise that our group is small because I have never made any effort to >> advertise. I know that each year there are new high school and college >> students who decide to start their own journeys into these 6 confusing cases >> and mystifying verbs of motion, and discover that they really do like this >> language, enough to pursue it further and want some outside help, support >> and just to have another resource. If you think that you know someone like >> that, please mention our group. RussianI at yahoogroups.com >> >> Thank you! >> >> Nola >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Tue Sep 21 17:25:28 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 18:25:28 +0100 Subject: Beginning Russian language group on Yahoogroups needs more lovers of Russian language In-Reply-To: <18332315.1285089431540.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Thanks! I have joined. I have a French exam tonight on Elluminate, but after that I am buying myself the workbook for V Puti! and some review. I've applied to the MA program in Translation Studies at Portsmouth (they offer Russian). ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ On 21 September 2010 18:17, oothappam wrote: > Hi Stephanie! > Oh, yes, I should have included this! Thank you for reminding me. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RussianI/ > > Or you can go to www.yahoogroups.com and put RussianI in the search ox, > if you lose the url. > > Nola > > > > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Stephanie Briggs > >Sent: Sep 21, 2010 9:57 AM > >To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > >Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Beginning Russian language group on Yahoogroups > needs more lovers of Russian language > > > >What is the URL for this group? *enthusiastic and ready to join* > > > >Stephanie > > > >***************************** > >~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs > >http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ > > > >Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! > >THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! > >http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ > > > > > > > > > >On 21 September 2010 17:34, oothappam wrote: > > > >> Dear SEELANGS members, > >> > >> Do you know any enthusiastic students of Russian who might like to join > an > >> online learning/discussion group? > >> > >> Our "RussianI" group on Yahoogroups needs them! We have had the group > for 2 > >> years. We have 41 members, most of whom are not posting, and a few very > >> enthusiastic members who try to jeep it going. We need: people to help > >> answer questions- teachers and native speakers, advanced students, AND > more > >> interested beginners(or people like me who are still beginners despite > >> having already spent years with this language!) > >> > >> There is another larger, more active Russian language yahoo group, but > we > >> started this newer one as there were some hurtful comments going on in > the > >> larger group, and some people felt intimidated. We started our newer > group > >> as we wanted to provide a safe place for beginners,where they would feel > >> welcome to ask about anything, no matter how basic. > >> I realise that our group is small because I have never made any effort > to > >> advertise. I know that each year there are new high school and college > >> students who decide to start their own journeys into these 6 confusing > cases > >> and mystifying verbs of motion, and discover that they really do like > this > >> language, enough to pursue it further and want some outside help, > support > >> and just to have another resource. If you think that you know someone > like > >> that, please mention our group. RussianI at yahoogroups.com > >> > >> Thank you! > >> > >> Nola > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From nuckols at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Sep 21 17:47:28 2010 From: nuckols at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Nuckols) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 13:47:28 -0400 Subject: [SEELA NGS] Is it the use o f Dative v s Acc usat iv e tha t clarifie s the mean ing of =?koi8-r?Q?=F5=DE=C9__=D4=D8=3F?= In-Reply-To: <66C5FAB6-1B22-4880-8178-1B077849092C@middlebury.edu> Message-ID: This discussion got me curious enough to re-read Katarzyna Dziwirek's "A Difference Kind of Non-Canonical Case Marking: The Slavic Verb 'To Teach'" (SEEJ, v. 46, no. 2 (2002), 319-47). The normal pattern for verbs of this sort is to have dative of person and accusative of thing (analogous to 'give s.th. to s.o.'), which is reversed in учить and its cognates in other Slavic languages--historically. But the modern Slavic languages seem to be increasingly employing strategies to avoid the old, almost counterintuitive, pattern. One strategy is to use other verbs for 'teach.' Dziwirek observes (326): "In Croatian predavati, in Russian prepodavat', and in Bulgarian prepodavam must be used when talking of teaching at school or other formal institution, when teaching academic subjects, etc." I have long assumed that in contemporary Russian you can say я преподаю в школе/в университете (no object) or я преподаю русский язык, but я учу русскому языку (в школе) (meaning I teach--or, for that matter, I learn) sounds archaic at best. Well, I couldn't resist googling "учить русскому языку." The first results page showed mostly examples of учить чему кого, but there was this interesting example from Komsomol'skaja Pravda (http://www.kp.md/online/news/54071/, title and first paragraph). В школах Чикаго будут учить русскому языку В ближайшее время власти Чикаго введут в школах уроки русского языка. В рамках программы по улучшению имиджа города и придания ему "глобального статуса" в школах уже учат китайскому, а также арабскому языкам, сообщает РИА "Новости". I'm really curious how native speakers judge or explain this. Mark Nuckols > Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:23:34 -0400 > From: moss at MIDDLEBURY.EDU > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Is it the use of Dative vs Acc usativ e that clarifies the meaning of Учи ть? > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > There are two different verbs with the same imperfective. > > Further, you would be highly unlikely to get учить чему WITHOUT a > person attached. > > This one is учить/научить кого чему, and both are usually obligatory. > > Учить что is instead учить/выучить, which in the imperfective is > often informal learning, rather than the kind of studying one does in > college. > This one you will never have WITHOUT an object > > > On Sep 21, 2010, at 12:12 PM, Alina Israeli wrote: > > > Учу стихотворению while theoretically possible, not very likely due > > to the meaning of the verb учить, to teach. It works only with > > skills: учить читать, писать, ходить, рисовать, дышать, работать, > > заучивать стихи, писать стихи; учить иностранному языку, танцу, > > пению, вышиванию, стихосложению etc. > > > > "Мemorizing a poem by heart" is not a skill, cannot teach it to > > others. > > > > AI > > > > Sep 21, 2010, в 10:11 AM, Mark Kingdom написал(а): > > > >> ...and thus, YES, it seems to be the usage of Dative vs Accusative > >> that > >> determines meaning? > >> > >> Я учу стихотворени*ю*. ....now has the meaning of, "I am teaching a > >> poem..." (to an unnamed person.) > >> > >> Just clarifying. Thanks in advance! > >> > >> Mark > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 5:08 PM, R. M. Cleminson > >> wrote: > >> > >>> A quick look at the Russian National Corpus makes it quite clear > >>> that учить > >>> языку means to teach a language and учить язык means to learn a > >>> language. > >>> There do not seem to be any instances of ambiguity. > >>> > >>> - > > > > Alina Israeli > > Associate Professor of Russian > > LFS, American University > > 4400 Massachusetts Ave. > > Washington DC 20016 > > (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 > > aisrael at american.edu > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kmh2135 at COLUMBIA.EDU Tue Sep 21 17:48:00 2010 From: kmh2135 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Katharine Holt) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 13:48:00 -0400 Subject: 2nd CFP: Ulbandus XIV -- Andrei Platonov and the Collective Message-ID: Ulbandus XIV -- Andrei Platonov and the Collective Deadline: OCTOBER 1, 2010 The next issue of Ulbandus, the Slavic Review of Columbia University (to be published in print in 2011 and then electronically on JSTOR), will be devoted to Andrei Platonov and the role of the collective in his work and its interpretation. Accepted submissions will be published alongside the proceedings of a conference on Platonov that is to be held at Columbia University February 11th and 12th, 2011. We welcome submissions that explore Platonov’s oeuvre in light of various philosophies of collective enterprise, as well as those that examine its relationship to collective bodies like the USSR, the Writers’ Union, collective farms, and the contemporary reading public. Possible topics may include, but are not limited to: -- The origins and evolution of Platonov’s social thought. --The depiction of collective (and collectivized) Soviet spaces, bodies, and institutions in Platonov’s poetry, prose, and journals. --Platonov’s representations of collective consciousness. -- Platonov’s relationship to the Soviet literary establishment. --Platonov as Soviet thinker, Soviet engineer, Soviet poet, Soviet prose writer. --Platonov and his audiences (e.g., the comprehensibility of Platonov’s language, whether in Russian or in translation, Platonov’s recent canonization as Russia’s “greatest prose stylist of the 20th century”). --Platonov and Voronezh, Platonov and Moscow, Platonov and the Soviet Empire. --Platonov’s reading of the collective across and transcending history. --Platonov’s “socialist realism” and its relationship to his 1920s texts. -- Platonov and the Russian literary tradition. -- Platonov and artists with shared sensibilities (e.g., William Faulkner, Aleksandr Medvedkin). In addition to scholarly articles, ULBANDUS encourages submission of original poetry, fiction, translations, photography and artwork. Contributions from outside of the Slavic field are warmly invited. The deadline for submissions is OCTOBER 1, 2010. Manuscripts should be in MLA format, double-spaced and not exceed 25 pages in length. Electronic submissions are strongly encouraged and may be sent to kmh2135 at columbia.edu in .doc or .rtf format. (Artwork should be submitted in TIFF format at a resolution of at least 600 dpi. ) Interested applicants may also submit 2 hard copies of the paper to: ULBANDUS Columbia University 1130 Amsterdam Avenue, Mail code 2839 New York, NY, 10027 USA After acknowledging receipt of your paper, we will prompt you to also send an electronic copy. See “How to Submit Work” link at the Ulbandus website for further details, including a style guide. For inquiries or questions, please check our website, or write to kmh2135 at columbia.edu for more information. As noted above, articles published in Ulbandus XIV will also appear on the JSTOR site. ULBANDUS is a peer-reviewed journal. All articles and notes submitted for publication are reviewed anonymously and should be prepared so that the author's identity is not revealed either in the body of the manuscript or in bibliographic references. Manuscripts are read by at least two evaluators, who recommend acceptance or rejection. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU Tue Sep 21 18:39:05 2010 From: aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU (Alina Israeli) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 14:39:05 -0400 Subject: Is it the use of Dative vs Accusative that clarifies the meaning of =?KOI8-R?Q?=F5=DE=C9=D4=D8=3F?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: They could have of course said В школах Чикаго в ближайшее время введут преподавание русского языка / начнут преподавать русский язык. Then it would have been about the school, the teachers, the school board. Saying будут учить русскому языку is about school students, the focus is on them, even though they are not mentioned. Sep 21, 2010, в 1:47 PM, Mark Nuckols написал(а): > Well, I couldn't resist googling "учить русскому языку." The first > results page showed mostly examples of учить чему кого, but there > was this interesting example from Komsomol'skaja Pravda (http://www.kp.md/online/news/54071/ > , title and first paragraph). > > В школах Чикаго будут учить русскому языку > > В ближайшее время власти Чикаго введут в школах уроки русского > языка. В рамках программы по улучшению имиджа города и придания ему > "глобального статуса" в школах уже учат китайскому, а также > арабскому языкам, сообщает РИА "Новости". > > I'm really curious how native speakers judge or explain this. > > Mark Nuckols > > Alina Israeli Associate Professor of Russian LFS, American University 4400 Massachusetts Ave. Washington DC 20016 (202) 885-2387 fax (202) 885-1076 aisrael at american.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From frosset at WHEATONMA.EDU Tue Sep 21 20:22:39 2010 From: frosset at WHEATONMA.EDU (Francoise Rosset) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 16:22:39 -0400 Subject: CFP, reminder: Russian panel at NeMLA convention, April 2011 in New Brunswick Message-ID: Dear Colleagues: This is a repost of an earlier announcement, I am sending it as a reminder. The deadline for abstracts is September 30 (in nine days ...), so thank you for your consideration and attention. The repost follows: Please consider attending and/or contributing to the next NeMLA convention (NortheastMLA), April 7-10, 2011 in New Brunswick, NJ. http://www.nemla.org/ This year we are lucky to have several Russian and East European-themed panels. http://www.nemla.org/convention/2011/cfp.html#russian I am sending out my call for papers (more correctly, for abstract submissions) for the panel on: Russian Poetry: from Golden Age to Silver Age This panel invites submissions on any aspect of Russian poetry up to and including the Silver Age. We have a particular -- but not exclusive-- interest in comparative proposals, especially those involving non-Russian poetry; in women poets, especially from the nineteenth century; and in proposals that thematically focus on meta-poetry, or on poetry about Russia. We welcome abstracts on other topics as well. Please submit 250-word abstracts by e-mail in .doc format, NOT .docx, -- preferably with an outline of your proposed paper, to: frosset at wheatonma.edu Abstract Deadline: September 30, 2010 Please include with your abstract: * Name and Affiliation * Email address * A/V requirements (if any; $10 handling fee) Looking forward to hearing from you, please see more information about NeMLA in the links below, -FR NeMLA homepage: http://www.nemla.org/ Membership and fees: http://www.nemla.org/about/information/membership.html Convention page: http://www.nemla.org/convention/2011/index.html CFP: http://www.nemla.org/convention/2011/cfp.html Russian and EE: http://www.nemla.org/convention/2011/cfp.html -- Francoise Rosset Chair, Russian and Russian Studies Coordinator, German and Russian Wheaton College Norton, Massachusetts 02766 phone: (508) 286-3696 fax #: (508) 286-3640 e-mail: FRosset at wheatonma.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Francoise Rosset Chair, Russian and Russian Studies Coordinator, German and Russian Wheaton College Norton, Massachusetts 02766 phone: (508) 286-3696 fax #: (508) 286-3640 e-mail: FRosset at wheatonma.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From gladney at ILLINOIS.EDU Wed Sep 22 01:16:49 2010 From: gladney at ILLINOIS.EDU (Frank Gladney) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 20:16:49 -0500 Subject: Jakobson's French Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, There's one sentence in Roman Jakobson's 1929 dissertation _Remarques sur l'evolution phonologique du russe_ ,as reprinted in vol. 1 of his Selected Writings, p. 36, that gives me trouble, specifically the last 10 words (E for e grave, 'e for e acute). L'abrEgement des voyelles longues dans certaines conditions musicales donna aux voyelles longues des brEves corr'elatives, et ainsi la longueur se vit rendre le caract'ere phonologique. My colleague in the French Department interprets _se vit rendre_ 'expressed the phonological characteristic', but that doesn't quite do it. Can someone out there do better? Merci a l'avance, Frank Y. Gladney ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ewb2 at CORNELL.EDU Wed Sep 22 01:35:24 2010 From: ewb2 at CORNELL.EDU (E Wayles Browne) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 21:35:24 -0400 Subject: Jakobson's French In-Reply-To: <20100921201649.CJL58848@expms1.cites.uiuc.edu> Message-ID: Maybe 'and thus length and shortness got its phonemic value back again.' or 'and thus quantity came to be phonemic once again'. Wayles -- Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics Department of Linguistics Morrill Hall 220, Cornell University Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A. tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h) fax 607-255-2044 (write FOR W. BROWNE) e-mail ewb2 at cornell.edu ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of gladney at ILLINOIS.EDU [gladney at ILLINOIS.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 9:16 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] Jakobson's French Dear Colleagues, There's one sentence in Roman Jakobson's 1929 dissertation _Remarques sur l'evolution phonologique du russe_ ,as reprinted in vol. 1 of his Selected Writings, p. 36, that gives me trouble, specifically the last 10 words (E for e grave, 'e for e acute). L'abrEgement des voyelles longues dans certaines conditions musicales donna aux voyelles longues des brEves corr'elatives, et ainsi la longueur se vit rendre le caract'ere phonologique. My colleague in the French Department interprets _se vit rendre_ 'expressed the phonological characteristic', but that doesn't quite do it. Can someone out there do better? Merci a l'avance, Frank Y. Gladney ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From i.dembowska at GMAIL.COM Wed Sep 22 02:47:38 2010 From: i.dembowska at GMAIL.COM (Iwona Dembowska-Wosik) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 21:47:38 -0500 Subject: AAASS - discussant needed Message-ID: I am looking for a discussant for a heritage speaker education panel during this year's AAASS convention. The panel is scheduled for Friday (Nov, 19) 10am. Iwona Dembowska-Wosik Indiana University ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From zolotar at INTERLOG.COM Wed Sep 22 03:20:52 2010 From: zolotar at INTERLOG.COM (George Hawrysch) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 20:20:52 -0700 Subject: Jakobson's French In-Reply-To: <20100921201649.CJL58848@expms1.cites.uiuc.edu> Message-ID: > se vit rendre "Se voir" is a learned locution, now entirely archaic, basically meaning "to be" in English. I would translate "se vit rendre" as "became" or "turned into." George Hawrysch ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From KrafcikP at EVERGREEN.EDU Wed Sep 22 04:57:35 2010 From: KrafcikP at EVERGREEN.EDU (Krafcik, Patricia) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 21:57:35 -0700 Subject: Elementary Russian Textbook? Help! Message-ID: Dear SEELANGERS: We have an emergency situation in that McGraw-Hill has just informed us that their Nachalo text is "out of stock indefinitely" and that there is no reprint date. We start classes in the last week in September and need to order some other elementary text here at The Evergreen State College. Please let me know what some of you use (other than Nachalo) and what you might suggest we order. We used the Troika text before adopting Nachalo and could go back to it. Are there any other really good textbooks (with workbooks and, hopefully, audio) out there? Our students may be freshmen through seniors. We have four hours of language class every week, and are on the quarter system. Thanks so much in advance-- Patricia Krafcik, Ph.D. The Evergreen State College Olympia, Washington ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From john at RUSLAN.CO.UK Wed Sep 22 09:11:37 2010 From: john at RUSLAN.CO.UK (John Langran) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 10:11:37 +0100 Subject: Ruslan Russian Grammar Message-ID: Thanks to several SEELANGs colleagues who have helped recently with the Ruslan Russian Grammar that I have been working on. Publication is due in October, hopefully, and I have put some advance information, including sample pages, at www.ruslan.co.uk/ruslangrammar.htm >From the sample pages, do try out the street signs exercise with beginner students, and the "skorogovorki" for some fun with more advanced learners. (Thanks to colleagues who helped with "ekhal greka" for this page). John Langran www.ruslan.co.uk ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Wed Sep 22 09:59:38 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 10:59:38 +0100 Subject: Elementary Russian Textbook? Help! In-Reply-To: <3171EF0C0146664DA703DE4D8DB912650266A476@birch.evergreen.edu> Message-ID: In my Intro Russian course at the University of Manitoba, we used Golosa Book 1. It has audio (also available on the Internet if you don't have a Language lab), and a workbook. Stephanie. ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ On 22 September 2010 05:57, Krafcik, Patricia wrote: > Dear SEELANGERS: > > We have an emergency situation in that McGraw-Hill has just informed > us that their Nachalo text is "out of stock indefinitely" and that there is > no reprint date. We start classes in the last week in September and need > to order some other elementary text here at The Evergreen State College. > Please let me know what some of you use (other than Nachalo) and what > you might suggest we order. We used the Troika text before adopting > Nachalo and could go back to it. Are there any other really good textbooks > (with workbooks and, hopefully, audio) out there? Our students may be > freshmen through seniors. We have four hours of language class every week, > and are on the quarter system. > > Thanks so much in advance-- > > Patricia Krafcik, Ph.D. > The Evergreen State College > Olympia, Washington > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rmcleminson at POST.SK Wed Sep 22 12:53:33 2010 From: rmcleminson at POST.SK (R. M. Cleminson) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 14:53:33 +0200 Subject: Jakobson's French In-Reply-To: <3DA15837C5EFEE4CB14A201A6C62A23A2EC63FDB80@MBXB.exchange.cornell.edu> Message-ID: Précisément. Or more literally: "length had its phonological character given back to it." (I take it that what J. is saying is that in these conditions the long vowels are replaced by vowels which, though short, are still distinct from the other vowels in the system.) ----- Originálna správa ----- Odosielateľ: "E Wayles Browne" Komu: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Dátum: streda, september 22, 2010 02:35:24 Predmet: Re: [SEELANGS] Jakobson's French Maybe 'and thus length and shortness got its phonemic value back again.' or 'and thus quantity came to be phonemic once again'. Wayles -- Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics Department of Linguistics Morrill Hall 220, Cornell University Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A. tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h) fax 607-255-2044 (write FOR W. BROWNE) e-mail ewb2 at cornell.edu ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of gladney at ILLINOIS.EDU [gladney at ILLINOIS.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 9:16 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] Jakobson's French Dear Colleagues, There's one sentence in Roman Jakobson's 1929 dissertation _Remarques sur l'evolution phonologique du russe_ ,as reprinted in vol. 1 of his Selected Writings, p. 36, that gives me trouble, specifically the last 10 words (E for e grave, 'e for e acute). L'abrEgement des voyelles longues dans certaines conditions musicales donna aux voyelles longues des brEves corr'elatives, et ainsi la longueur se vit rendre le caract'ere phonologique. My colleague in the French Department interprets _se vit rendre_ 'expressed the phonological characteristic', but that doesn't quite do it. Can someone out there do better? Merci a l'avance, Frank Y. Gladney ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- _____________________________________________________________________ http://zajtrajsie.sme.sk - tipujte najblizsie sportove vysledky aj politicke udalosti ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Wed Sep 22 13:52:40 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 14:52:40 +0100 Subject: Source of quotation about the nature of patriotism In-Reply-To: <275EA77D5FC142119562877B4AAFDA4B@nina> Message-ID: Dear all, I am forwarding a question from a Polish friend of mine. We will both be very grateful for your help: “I have been desperately trying to find the source of a quotation cited in early 1970 by a Polish émigré writer, without any context. I checked masses of books in Polish and Russian (on the assumption that this might have been written by a Russian writer, like Solovev, Merezhkovsky or Zinaida Gippius, Sergei Berdaev etc.), but am now asking various well-read people whether they can recognise this wonderful thought in any other language. Here is the quotation in Polish and in my accurate translation: „Na to Antychryst przysłał innego człowieka, który przybył i powiedział: – Kocham ojczyznę. Pozwoli pan, że się przedstawię. Nazywam się: Patriota. W mojej ojczyźnie może panować Zło, i ono może dziać się mnie. Ale ja ją kocham. Odpowiedziałem: – Jeśli w pańskiej ojczyźnie działa Zło i pan ją kocha, kocha pan nie ojczyznę, lecz Zło. (...) Przed wszystkim jesteśmy dziećmi Boga, i Bóg jest pierwszą ojczyzną. Bóg dał nam nogi i podeszwy nie tylko po to, abyśmy się czuli swojsko w naszych krajach, lecz po to także, żebyśmy opuścić mogli kraj, w którym działa Zło.” На это Антихрист направил другого человека, который пришел и сказал: – Я люблю свою родину, Разрешите представиться, Мое имя: Патриот. На моей родине может царствовать Зло, и оно может касаться и меня, но я ее люблю. Я ответил: Если на Вашей родине царствует Зло, а Вы ее любите, Вы любите не родину, но Зло. (…) Мы прежде всего дети Бога и Бог есть первая родина. Бог дал нам ноги и ступни не только, чтобы нам было уютно на родине, но и затем, чтобы мы могли покинуть страну, в которой царствует Зло.” All the best, Robert ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From oothappam at earthlink.net Wed Sep 22 14:27:09 2010 From: oothappam at earthlink.net (oothappam) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 07:27:09 -0700 Subject: Beginning Russian language group on Yahoogroups needs more lovers of Russian language Message-ID: Stephanie! Best of luck with the French exam. What's Elluminate, by the way? Is it something online? I am very glad you joined this group! Nola -----Original Message----- >From: Stephanie Briggs >Sent: Sep 21, 2010 10:25 AM >To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Beginning Russian language group on Yahoogroups needs more lovers of Russian language > >Thanks! I have joined. I have a French exam tonight on Elluminate, but after >that I am buying myself the workbook for V Puti! and some review. I've >applied to the MA program in Translation Studies at Portsmouth (they offer >Russian). > > >***************************** >~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs >http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ > >Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! >THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! >http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ > > > > >On 21 September 2010 18:17, oothappam wrote: > >> Hi Stephanie! >> Oh, yes, I should have included this! Thank you for reminding me. >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RussianI/ >> >> Or you can go to www.yahoogroups.com and put RussianI in the search ox, >> if you lose the url. >> >> Nola >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >From: Stephanie Briggs >> >Sent: Sep 21, 2010 9:57 AM >> >To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >> >Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Beginning Russian language group on Yahoogroups >> needs more lovers of Russian language >> > >> >What is the URL for this group? *enthusiastic and ready to join* >> > >> >Stephanie >> > >> >***************************** >> >~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs >> >http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ >> > >> >Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! >> >THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! >> >http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >On 21 September 2010 17:34, oothappam wrote: >> > >> >> Dear SEELANGS members, >> >> >> >> Do you know any enthusiastic students of Russian who might like to join >> an >> >> online learning/discussion group? >> >> >> >> Our "RussianI" group on Yahoogroups needs them! We have had the group >> for 2 >> >> years. We have 41 members, most of whom are not posting, and a few very >> >> enthusiastic members who try to jeep it going. We need: people to help >> >> answer questions- teachers and native speakers, advanced students, AND >> more >> >> interested beginners(or people like me who are still beginners despite >> >> having already spent years with this language!) >> >> >> >> There is another larger, more active Russian language yahoo group, but >> we >> >> started this newer one as there were some hurtful comments going on in >> the >> >> larger group, and some people felt intimidated. We started our newer >> group >> >> as we wanted to provide a safe place for beginners,where they would feel >> >> welcome to ask about anything, no matter how basic. >> >> I realise that our group is small because I have never made any effort >> to >> >> advertise. I know that each year there are new high school and college >> >> students who decide to start their own journeys into these 6 confusing >> cases >> >> and mystifying verbs of motion, and discover that they really do like >> this >> >> language, enough to pursue it further and want some outside help, >> support >> >> and just to have another resource. If you think that you know someone >> like >> >> that, please mention our group. RussianI at yahoogroups.com >> >> >> >> Thank you! >> >> >> >> Nola >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> > >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From lynnvisson at GMAIL.COM Wed Sep 22 15:50:28 2010 From: lynnvisson at GMAIL.COM (Lynn Visson) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:50:28 -0400 Subject: First year Russian Textbook Message-ID: In answer to Pat Krafcik's query re a first-year Russian textbook: "Beginner's Russian" by Olga Kagan, Anna Kudyma and Frank Miller was just published by Hippocrene Books. It segues nicely into the second-year book by the same three authors. Lynn Visson ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU Wed Sep 22 17:06:50 2010 From: hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU (Hugh McLean) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 10:06:50 -0700 Subject: Jakobson's French In-Reply-To: <20100921201649.CJL58848@expms1.cites.uiuc.edu> Message-ID: I think 'rendre' is used here in the sense of 'give up, surrender, lose.' The sentence might be translated, "The shortening of long vowels under certain musical conditions gave long vowels [or provided long vowels with] corresponding short ones, and thus length lost its phonemic character." > Dear Colleagues, > > There's one sentence in Roman Jakobson's 1929 dissertation _Remarques sur l'evolution phonologique du russe_ ,as reprinted in vol. 1 of his Selected Writings, p. 36, that gives me trouble, specifically the last 10 words (E for e grave, 'e for e acute). > > L'abrEgement des voyelles longues dans certaines conditions musicales donna aux voyelles longues des brEves corr'elatives, et ainsi la longueur se vit rendre le caract'ere phonologique. > > My colleague in the French Department interprets _se vit rendre_ 'expressed the phonological characteristic', but that doesn't quite do it. > > Can someone out there do better? > > Merci a l'avance, > > Frank Y. Gladney > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ajw3 at PSU.EDU Wed Sep 22 17:12:27 2010 From: ajw3 at PSU.EDU (ADRIAN J. WANNER) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 13:12:27 -0400 Subject: Elementary Russian Textbook? Help! In-Reply-To: AANLkTimzmADRRZq=dhc3Q5d2SinQmoufOp6ucaUm3cZ6@mail.gmail.com Message-ID: I am using Golosa this semester. According to the website, there is an on-line teacher's manual, which you can supposedly access by filling out a web-application. I submitted the form in August, but never got a response. I then sent two personal messages to Richard Robin, one of the book's co-authors, but to no avail.I am just curious whether there is anyone out there who had more luck with this. Does this teacher's manual actually exist?Many thanks,Adrian On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 05:59 AM, Stephanie Briggs wrote: > In my Intro Russian course at the University of Manitoba, we used Golosa >Book 1. It has audio (also available on the Internet if you don't have a >Language lab), and a workbook. > >Stephanie. > >***************************** >~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs >http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ > >Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! >THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! >http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ > >Adrian J. Wanner > Professor of Russian and Comparative Literature The Pennsylvania State University 422 Burrowes Building University Park, PA 16802 814 865-1097 (Office) 814 865-5481 (Department) http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/a/j/ajw3/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From James at RUSSIA-ON-LINE.COM Wed Sep 22 17:18:31 2010 From: James at RUSSIA-ON-LINE.COM (James Beale) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 13:18:31 -0400 Subject: Elementary Russian Textbook? Help! In-Reply-To: A<1285175546l.938164l.0l@psu.edu> Message-ID: We are the publishers of the Ruslan Russian 1, North American edition, which has been adopted by several universities this year, including the USAF Academy. The beginning levels have textbooks and workbooks, each with audio supplements. For more information: http://www.russia-on-line.com/ruslan.html The Ruslan Series: Ruslan Russian - a course developed in the UK and revised for American students: Ruslan 1 was created by teachers in the UK and America with years of experience teaching both adults and young people. The course maximizes the enjoyment of learning a new language, while giving a thorough grammatical and structural introduction in a communicative context. The course can be used by people learning in groups with a teacher, and there are a large number of group activities and language games. But, it is also useful to people learning on their own. The approach is practical and communicative, with up-to-date, useful language, thoroughly vetted by Russian teachers living in Russia, and by Russian Language instructors at the US Agency for International Development (USAID), the US Department of Energy (DOE) and the US Department of Commerce (DOC). You can also contact my colleague Elena Rakhaeva (elena at russia-on-line.com) for more information and to see about getting an examination copy. Our full catalog of Russian teaching/study materials is also available as a PDF download. http://www.russia-on-line.com/pdf/ilearnrussian.pdf James Beale Russia Online, Inc. Tel: 301-933-0607 Fax: 301-933-0615 Shop online 24/7: http://shop.russia-on-line.com -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of ADRIAN J. WANNER Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 1:12 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Elementary Russian Textbook? Help! I am using Golosa this semester. According to the website, there is an on-line teacher's manual, which you can supposedly access by filling out a web-application. I submitted the form in August, but never got a response. I then sent two personal messages to Richard Robin, one of the book's co-authors, but to no avail.I am just curious whether there is anyone out there who had more luck with this. Does this teacher's manual actually exist?Many thanks,Adrian On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 05:59 AM, Stephanie Briggs wrote: > In my Intro Russian course at the University of Manitoba, we used Golosa >Book 1. It has audio (also available on the Internet if you don't have a >Language lab), and a workbook. > >Stephanie. > >***************************** >~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs >http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ > >Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! >THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! >http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ > >Adrian J. Wanner > Professor of Russian and Comparative Literature The Pennsylvania State University 422 Burrowes Building University Park, PA 16802 814 865-1097 (Office) 814 865-5481 (Department) http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/a/j/ajw3/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From tatianafilimonova2011 at U.NORTHWESTERN.EDU Wed Sep 22 17:50:45 2010 From: tatianafilimonova2011 at U.NORTHWESTERN.EDU (Tatiana Filimonova) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 12:50:45 -0500 Subject: Olga Kaznina contact info Message-ID: Dear Seelangers, Could anyone help me get in touch with Olga Kaznina (IMLI RAN)? I am trying to contact her regarding a few of her publications. Thank you! Tatiana Filimonova Graduate student, Northwestern University ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ixm12 at PSU.EDU Wed Sep 22 17:58:41 2010 From: ixm12 at PSU.EDU (Irina Mikaelian) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 13:58:41 -0400 Subject: GOLOSA: Elementary Russian Textbook? Help! In-Reply-To: <1285175546l.938164l.0l@psu.edu> Message-ID: I am in the same situation as Adrian Wanner (se below), though I just filled in the online application but did not sent any personal emails to Richard Robin. Thanks, Irina Mikaelian Pennsylvania State University Department of Germanic and Slavic Languages and Literatures 427 Burrowes University Park, PA, 16802 USA ixm12 at psu.edu -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of ADRIAN J. WANNER Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 1:12 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Elementary Russian Textbook? Help! I am using Golosa this semester. According to the website, there is an on-line teacher's manual, which you can supposedly access by filling out a web-application. I submitted the form in August, but never got a response. I then sent two personal messages to Richard Robin, one of the book's co-authors, but to no avail.I am just curious whether there is anyone out there who had more luck with this. Does this teacher's manual actually exist?Many thanks,Adrian On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 05:59 AM, Stephanie Briggs wrote: > In my Intro Russian course at the University of Manitoba, we used Golosa >Book 1. It has audio (also available on the Internet if you don't have a >Language lab), and a workbook. > >Stephanie. > >***************************** >~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs >http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ > >Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! >THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! >http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ > >Adrian J. Wanner > Professor of Russian and Comparative Literature The Pennsylvania State University 422 Burrowes Building University Park, PA 16802 814 865-1097 (Office) 814 865-5481 (Department) http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/a/j/ajw3/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From asured at VERIZON.NET Wed Sep 22 18:24:41 2010 From: asured at VERIZON.NET (STEPHEN MARDER) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:24:41 -0700 Subject: Olga Kaznina contact info In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Could anyone help me get in touch with Olga Kaznina (IMLI RAN)? I am trying to contact her regarding a few of her publications. Thank you! Tatiana Filimonova Graduate student, Northwestern University ------------------------------------------------------------------------- You could try: Телефон: (495) 690-50-30 Факс: (495) 609-95-16 Email: info at imli.ru ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sbauckus at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Sep 22 18:41:44 2010 From: sbauckus at EARTHLINK.NET (Susan Bauckus) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:41:44 -0700 Subject: Elementary Russian Textbook Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Beginner's Russian by Anna Kudyma, Frank Miller, and Olga Kagan also has a website with a freely accessible online workbook that includes self-correcting exercises and multimedia materials. The website also has a teacher's corner. It can be found here: http://www.russian.ucla.edu/beginnersrussian/ Regards, Susie Susan Bauckus UCLA Center for World Languages www.international.ucla.edu Heritage Language Journal www.heritagelanguages.org Language Materials Project www.lmp.ucla.edu LA Language World www.lalamag.ucla.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Elena.Kobzeva at RCC.EDU Wed Sep 22 18:38:36 2010 From: Elena.Kobzeva at RCC.EDU (Elena.Kobzeva at RCC.EDU) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:38:36 -0700 Subject: Elementary Russian Textbook? Help! In-Reply-To: <3171EF0C0146664DA703DE4D8DB912650266A476@birch.evergreen.edu> Message-ID: We use Golosa, Book 1 and Book 2 for many years and we really like it. Elena Kobzeva Riverside Community College elena.kobzeva at rcc.edu ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Krafcik, Patricia [KrafcikP at EVERGREEN.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 9:57 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] Elementary Russian Textbook? Help! Dear SEELANGERS: We have an emergency situation in that McGraw-Hill has just informed us that their Nachalo text is "out of stock indefinitely" and that there is no reprint date. We start classes in the last week in September and need to order some other elementary text here at The Evergreen State College. Please let me know what some of you use (other than Nachalo) and what you might suggest we order. We used the Troika text before adopting Nachalo and could go back to it. Are there any other really good textbooks (with workbooks and, hopefully, audio) out there? Our students may be freshmen through seniors. We have four hours of language class every week, and are on the quarter system. Thanks so much in advance-- Patricia Krafcik, Ph.D. The Evergreen State College Olympia, Washington ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rrobin at GWU.EDU Wed Sep 22 18:42:20 2010 From: rrobin at GWU.EDU (Richard Robin) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 14:42:20 -0400 Subject: GOLOSA: Elementary Russian Textbook? Help! In-Reply-To: <001501cb5a7f$ca69aa20$5f3cfe60$@edu> Message-ID: Dear SEELANGers, On Golosa teachers' materials: Completed applications come to my inbox. I usually get to them in a day or two. But the forms must be complete. If someone fills out a teacher's form and does not include the required information showing that the applicant teaches at a college or high school in a Russian program or that the department chair teaches in a language program and can verify someone's status. (Those are the lines asking for URLs). If those lines are left blank, the system generates a message back t the user saying that the form needs to be complete. Completed forms are forwarded to me. (Uncompleted forms bounce back to the user.) If the applicant's website shows the applicant as a teacher of Russian, then I add the user to the list and e-mail back to the user the necessary credentials. If the user's name is not listed on a website, but the user provided me with a supervisor's e-mail (and URL listing to prove that that person actually works there), I then e-mail the supervisor and cc that message to the applicant. Once I get the conformation that the applicant teaches Russian, I then issue a password. Occasionally, an e-mail goes astray. This happened with one of the people who wrote to SEELANGs, and I am now correcting that situation. Sincerely, Richard Robin On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 1:58 PM, Irina Mikaelian wrote: > I am in the same situation as Adrian Wanner (se below), though I just > filled in the online application but did not sent any personal emails to > Richard Robin. > > Thanks, > > Irina Mikaelian > Pennsylvania State University > Department of Germanic and Slavic Languages and Literatures > 427 Burrowes > University Park, PA, 16802 USA > ixm12 at psu.edu > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list > [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of ADRIAN J. WANNER > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 1:12 PM > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Elementary Russian Textbook? Help! > > I am using Golosa this semester. According to the website, there is an > on-line > teacher's manual, which you can supposedly access by filling out a > web-application. I submitted the form in August, but never got a response. > I > then sent two personal messages to Richard Robin, one of the book's > co-authors, > but to no avail.I am just curious whether there is anyone out there who had > more luck with this. Does this teacher's manual actually exist?Many > thanks,Adrian > > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 05:59 AM, Stephanie Briggs wrote: > > > In my Intro Russian course at the University of Manitoba, we used Golosa > >Book 1. It has audio (also available on the Internet if you don't have a > >Language lab), and a workbook. > > > >Stephanie. > > > >***************************** > >~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs > >http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ > > > >Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! > >THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! > >http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ > > > >Adrian J. Wanner > > > > Professor of Russian and Comparative Literature > The Pennsylvania State University > 422 Burrowes Building > University Park, PA 16802 > > 814 865-1097 (Office) > 814 865-5481 (Department) > http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/a/j/ajw3/ > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Richard M. Robin Director Russian Language Program The George Washington University Washington, DC 20052 202-994-7081 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ashot-vardanyan at UIOWA.EDU Wed Sep 22 20:33:36 2010 From: ashot-vardanyan at UIOWA.EDU (Vardanyan, Ashot) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 15:33:36 -0500 Subject: Elementary Russian Textbook? Help! Message-ID: If the Ruslan 1 text is available at stock, I would recommend it. This book is full of excellent follow-up activities that help firm up the vocabulary and grammar. My students also enjoyed the combination of "from screen" and "from book" teaching by using the course CD-ROM and audio CDs. All Ruslan texts, including the one for the beginners, are especially helpful for communicative purposes. Ashot Vardanyan ________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list on behalf of Krafcik, Patricia Sent: Tue 21-Sep-10 23:57 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] Elementary Russian Textbook? Help! Dear SEELANGERS: We have an emergency situation in that McGraw-Hill has just informed us that their Nachalo text is "out of stock indefinitely" and that there is no reprint date. We start classes in the last week in September and need to order some other elementary text here at The Evergreen State College. Please let me know what some of you use (other than Nachalo) and what you might suggest we order. We used the Troika text before adopting Nachalo and could go back to it. Are there any other really good textbooks (with workbooks and, hopefully, audio) out there? Our students may be freshmen through seniors. We have four hours of language class every week, and are on the quarter system. Thanks so much in advance-- Patricia Krafcik, Ph.D. The Evergreen State College Olympia, Washington ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From temp0001 at SHININGHAPPYPEOPLE.NET Wed Sep 22 20:48:56 2010 From: temp0001 at SHININGHAPPYPEOPLE.NET (Don Livingston) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 15:48:56 -0500 Subject: Elementary Russian Textbook? Help! Message-ID: > Please let me know what some of you use (other than Nachalo) and what you might suggest we order. < We are using "Live from Russia" at Arizona State. It has a very well produced DVD, decent audio CDs, good workbook. The organization of the textbook makes lesson planning fairly simple. The audio is also available online, as well as a teacher's manual, tests, and answer keys for the workbook. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From christopher.alan.pike at GMAIL.COM Wed Sep 22 20:48:58 2010 From: christopher.alan.pike at GMAIL.COM (Christopher Pike) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 15:48:58 -0500 Subject: Elementary Russian Textbook? Help! In-Reply-To: <3171EF0C0146664DA703DE4D8DB912650266A476@birch.evergreen.edu> Message-ID: Dear Professor Krafcik, We used Golosa book 1 and 2 at the University of Oregon. There is an online component with audio and video. Although I often felt that some of the material was too advanced for beginning students, the Golosa program does a good job of preparing students for the variation and unpredictable nature of native speech. The videos, for example, were often too difficult. We got around that by assigning the more difficult sections of earlier chapters only after the students had advanced further along in the textbook. Best of luck! Chris Pike graduate student Northwestern University 2010/9/21 Krafcik, Patricia > Dear SEELANGERS: > > We have an emergency situation in that McGraw-Hill has just informed > us that their Nachalo text is "out of stock indefinitely" and that there is > no reprint date. We start classes in the last week in September and need > to order some other elementary text here at The Evergreen State College. > Please let me know what some of you use (other than Nachalo) and what > you might suggest we order. We used the Troika text before adopting > Nachalo and could go back to it. Are there any other really good textbooks > (with workbooks and, hopefully, audio) out there? Our students may be > freshmen through seniors. We have four hours of language class every week, > and are on the quarter system. > > Thanks so much in advance-- > > Patricia Krafcik, Ph.D. > The Evergreen State College > Olympia, Washington > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ewamp at EMAIL.UNC.EDU Thu Sep 23 12:34:40 2010 From: ewamp at EMAIL.UNC.EDU (Ewa Wampuszyc) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 08:34:40 -0400 Subject: Job Announcement: Lecturer in Polish Studies at the University of Florida Message-ID: Dear SEELANGS Members, I am posting the below job announcement on behalf of the Center for European Studies (CES) at the University of Florida. Please contact the CES directly for further questions or inquiries. Sincerely, Ewa Wampuszyc ______________________________________________ Ewa Wampuszyc Assistant Professor of Polish Dept. of Slavic Languages and Literatures 312 Dey Hall -- CB#3165 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3165 *************************************************************** FULL-TIME LECTURER POSITION: POLISH STUDIES The Center for European Studies (CES) at the University of Florida is conducting a search for a full-time, non-tenure track position in Polish Studies to begin August 16, 2011. Primary duties include teaching two courses per semester: first or second year Polish language and a field-specific, area studies course. In addition, the successful candidate will assist in the continued development of the Polish Studies Program in collaboration with other Polish Studies faculty at UF. Program building tasks include but are not limited to: community outreach activities; enhancing collaboration with the on-campus Polish student organization; and co-directing a study-abroad program. The field of specialization is open and can include any aspect of contemporary Polish language, literature, culture, history, politics or society. Candidates with a demonstrated interest in language pedagogy and an interdisciplinary or comparative background are strongly encouraged to apply. Native or near-native fluency in Polish and English, as well as previous experience teaching Polish language are required. Candidates with Ph.D. are preferred, but qualified candidates who are A.B.D. may be considered. The successful candidate will be expected to participate fully in the scholarly and programming activities of the CES. Send letter of application, CV, a writing sample (approximately 20 pages), 2 sample course descriptions (non-language), and three letters of recommendation to: Chair, Polish Studies Search, Center for European Studies, 3324 Turlington Hall, P.O. Box 117342, University of Florida, Gainesville FL 32611-7342. Applicants are encouraged to apply as soon as possible and to ensure full consideration, applications should be received by Oct 25, 2010. Only complete applications will be considered and the search will remain open until filled. The University of Florida is an Equal Opportunity Employer. Minority and women candidates are strongly encouraged to apply. The Center for European Studies is a Title VI National Resource Center (NRC) for European Studies. Additional information on the Center and its activities is available online at www.ces.ufl.edu *************************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From a_timberlake at BERKELEY.EDU Thu Sep 23 15:45:43 2010 From: a_timberlake at BERKELEY.EDU (a_timberlake at BERKELEY.EDU) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 08:45:43 -0700 Subject: Jakobson's French In-Reply-To: <20100921201649.CJL58848@expms1.cites.uiuc.edu> Message-ID: It might help to go back to Jakobson’s line of thought. Slavic emerged from Indo-European with a distinction of long and short vowels that have quite regular and well-known reflexes in attested Slavic. Thus *long e gives jat, *short e gives e; long *i gives attested i, *short i gives attested front jer. Around the end of the Common Slavic period, original long vowels were shortened in certain accentual positions (“conditions musicales”), different in different dialects (under the circumflex in Czech, under the acute in S-Cr, under both in Polish). Crucially, the shortened vowels did not merge with the original short vowels. Thus for example a shortened *long i did not become a front jer, which was the (usual) reflex of an original *short i. By the time of the shortening, vowels must already have been different in quality: for example, the original *short i had become a front jer, a centralized lax vowel. If the distinction between *i and *front jer had been simply quantity, this shortening should have led to merger. The fact that the shortened longs did not merge with the original shorts allows a new new distinction of quantity to develop in vowels (in some of Slavic).: a long i where length was preserved, a short i where length was lost (for example, under the acute accent in S-CR). The development of a new distinction in quantity was strengthened (and may even have been triggered) by contraction and compensatory lengthening, processes that created new long vowels. The proposed translations that say roughly that (quantity was restored/quantity reemerged/quantity became phonemic again...) are correct. \\ Dear Colleagues, \\ \\ There's one sentence in Roman Jakobson's 1929 dissertation _Remarques sur \\ l'evolution phonologique du russe_ ,as reprinted in vol. 1 of his Selected \\ Writings, p. 36, that gives me trouble, specifically the last 10 words (E \\ for e grave, 'e for e acute). \\ \\ L'abrEgement des voyelles longues dans certaines conditions musicales \\ donna aux voyelles longues des brEves corr'elatives, et ainsi la longueur \\ se vit rendre le caract'ere phonologique. \\ \\ My colleague in the French Department interprets _se vit rendre_ \\ 'expressed the phonological characteristic', but that doesn't quite do it. \\ \\ Can someone out there do better? \\ \\ Merci a l'avance, \\ \\ Frank Y. Gladney \\ \\ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- \\ Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription \\ options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: \\ http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ \\ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- \\ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From lynnvisson at GMAIL.COM Thu Sep 23 17:14:30 2010 From: lynnvisson at GMAIL.COM (Lynn Visson) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 13:14:30 -0400 Subject: Michele Berdy's new book on Russian words and idioms Message-ID: Colleagues teaching and studying Russian should thoroughly enjoy Michele Berdy's new book, "The Russian Word's Worth," just out in Russia, published by GLAS and distributed by Northwestern University Press in the US. Nearly 500 pages long, it contains some five years of Mickey's "The Word's Worth" columns, more than 200 of them, from the *Moscow Times *dealing with dozens of difficulties in Russian for English speakers, and dozens of idioms. The book is organized by themes with mini-intros and a detailed index. Many of us have been reading these columns for years, and it will be great for teachers and students to finally have them all in one place. It's available on Amazon. (PS - I have no vested or commercial interest whatever in this book - just think that it will be invaluable for everyone!) Lynn Visson ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Thu Sep 23 17:27:09 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 18:27:09 +0100 Subject: Michele Berdy's new book on Russian words and idioms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I second everything Lynn says. Michele writes about complex matters with extraordinary grace, subtlety and lightness. Her columns are both entertaining and hugely informative. I am really happy that this is at last available and I'm sure I'll be consulting it almost daily. Vsego samogo dobrogo - and thanks to Natasha Perova and GLAS for bringing this out! Robert > Colleagues teaching and studying Russian should thoroughly enjoy Michele > Berdy's new book, "The Russian Word's Worth," just out in Russia, published > by GLAS and distributed by Northwestern University Press in the US. Nearly > 500 pages long, it contains some five years of Mickey's "The Word's Worth" > columns, more than 200 of them, from the *Moscow Times *dealing with dozens > of difficulties in Russian for English speakers, and dozens of idioms. The > book is organized by themes with mini-intros and a detailed index. Many of > us have been reading these columns for years, and it will be great for > teachers and students to finally have them all in one place. It's available > on Amazon. (PS - I have no vested or commercial interest whatever in this > book - just think that it will be invaluable for everyone!) > > Lynn Visson > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From k2kingdom at GMAIL.COM Thu Sep 23 18:06:11 2010 From: k2kingdom at GMAIL.COM (Mark Kingdom) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 21:06:11 +0300 Subject: Michele Berdy's new book on Russian words and idioms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ....unfortunately it's out of stock at Amazon. Do you think it'd be on the shelves of BN? On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 8:27 PM, Robert Chandler wrote: > I second everything Lynn says. Michele writes about complex matters with > extraordinary grace, subtlety and lightness. Her columns are both > entertaining and hugely informative. I am really happy that this is at > last > available and I'm sure I'll be consulting it almost daily. > > Vsego samogo dobrogo - and thanks to Natasha Perova and GLAS for bringing > this out! > > Robert > > > > > > Colleagues teaching and studying Russian should thoroughly enjoy Michele > > Berdy's new book, "The Russian Word's Worth," just out in Russia, > published > > by GLAS and distributed by Northwestern University Press in the US. > Nearly > > 500 pages long, it contains some five years of Mickey's "The Word's > Worth" > > columns, more than 200 of them, from the *Moscow Times *dealing with > dozens > > of difficulties in Russian for English speakers, and dozens of idioms. > The > > book is organized by themes with mini-intros and a detailed index. Many > of > > us have been reading these columns for years, and it will be great for > > teachers and students to finally have them all in one place. It's > available > > on Amazon. (PS - I have no vested or commercial interest whatever in > this > > book - just think that it will be invaluable for everyone!) > > > > Lynn Visson > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From maureen.riley at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Sep 23 18:25:20 2010 From: maureen.riley at US.ARMY.MIL (Riley, Maureen Ms CIV USA DLI-W) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 14:25:20 -0400 Subject: Michele Berdy's new book on Russian words and idioms (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Actually, the book hasn't been released yet. But you can pre-order it at Amazon. mr -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Kingdom Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 2:06 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Michele Berdy's new book on Russian words and idioms ....unfortunately it's out of stock at Amazon. Do you think it'd be on the shelves of BN? On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 8:27 PM, Robert Chandler wrote: > I second everything Lynn says. Michele writes about complex matters > with extraordinary grace, subtlety and lightness. Her columns are > both entertaining and hugely informative. I am really happy that this > is at last available and I'm sure I'll be consulting it almost daily. > > Vsego samogo dobrogo - and thanks to Natasha Perova and GLAS for > bringing this out! > > Robert > > > > > > Colleagues teaching and studying Russian should thoroughly enjoy > > Michele Berdy's new book, "The Russian Word's Worth," just out in > > Russia, > published > > by GLAS and distributed by Northwestern University Press in the US. > Nearly > > 500 pages long, it contains some five years of Mickey's "The > > Word's > Worth" > > columns, more than 200 of them, from the *Moscow Times *dealing with > dozens > > of difficulties in Russian for English speakers, and dozens of idioms. > The > > book is organized by themes with mini-intros and a detailed index. > > Many > of > > us have been reading these columns for years, and it will be great > > for teachers and students to finally have them all in one place. > > It's > available > > on Amazon. (PS - I have no vested or commercial interest whatever > > in > this > > book - just think that it will be invaluable for everyone!) > > > > Lynn Visson > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > > subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web > Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jschill at AMERICAN.EDU Thu Sep 23 18:56:09 2010 From: jschill at AMERICAN.EDU (John Schillinger) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 14:56:09 -0400 Subject: Mac OS 10.6 and Russian keyboard layout s & glps A=?UTF-8?Q?=D0=92=D0=A2=D0=9E=D0=A0?= In-Reply-To: <25954095.1282682902277.JavaMail.mtsmith02@ysu.edu> Message-ID: Has anyone found a way to make documents written with the old glps АВТОР keyboard work on our new Mac systems? JS > > -------- John Schillinger Emeritus Prof. of Russian American University 192 High St. Strasburg VA, 22657 Ph. (540) 465-2828 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Thu Sep 23 19:41:08 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 15:41:08 -0400 Subject: Michele Berdy's new book on Russian words and idioms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ш цфте I want the book, for my own use as much as for my students! Where can we still get it? o.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From franssuasso at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 23 20:31:52 2010 From: franssuasso at HOTMAIL.COM (Frans Suasso) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 22:31:52 +0200 Subject: Michele Berdy's new book on Russian words and idioms (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <4AC510E9E66C994AA255358485FE78C6B39757@DAHQ110BEPNT016.dahq.ds.army.mil> Message-ID: Op 23-9-2010 20:25, Riley, Maureen Ms CIV USA DLI-W schreef: > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > Actually, the book hasn't been released yet. But you can pre-order it > at Amazon. > > mr > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic& East European Languages and Literatures list > [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Kingdom > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 2:06 PM > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Michele Berdy's new book on Russian words and > idioms > > ....unfortunately it's out of stock at Amazon. Do you think it'd be on > the shelves of BN? > > > On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 8:27 PM, Robert Chandler > wrote: > >> I second everything Lynn says. Michele writes about complex matters >> with extraordinary grace, subtlety and lightness. Her columns are >> both entertaining and hugely informative. I am really happy that this >> is at last available and I'm sure I'll be consulting it almost daily. >> >> Vsego samogo dobrogo - and thanks to Natasha Perova and GLAS for >> bringing this out! >> >> Robert >> >> >> >> >>> Colleagues teaching and studying Russian should thoroughly enjoy >>> Michele Berdy's new book, "The Russian Word's Worth," just out in >>> Russia, >> published >>> by GLAS and distributed by Northwestern University Press in the US. >> Nearly >>> 500 pages long, it contains some five years of Mickey's "The >>> Word's >> Worth" >>> columns, more than 200 of them, from the *Moscow Times *dealing with >> dozens >>> of difficulties in Russian for English speakers, and dozens of > idioms. >> The >>> book is organized by themes with mini-intros and a detailed index. >>> Many >> of >>> us have been reading these columns for years, and it will be great >>> for teachers and students to finally have them all in one place. >>> It's >> available >>> on Amazon. (PS - I have no vested or commercial interest whatever >>> in >> this >>> book - just think that it will be invaluable for everyone!) >>> >>> Lynn Visson >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ----- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your >>> subscription >>> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface > at: >>> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ----- >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your >> subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web >> Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I am not sure about Amazon. I preorderedThe Russian'sword worth" in may or june from Amazon.uk. A month ago I they wrote that the book had been dispatched. Three days later I received"Squaring the circle, short stories by winners of the Debut Prize". I contacted Amazon.UK. They replied that I might keep the book and they would send a copy of The Word's Worth immediately. Two days later I got another package from Amazon.UK and another copy of "Squaring the circle". I contacted them again and I have never heard of them since. Frans Suasso ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From lynnvisson at GMAIL.COM Thu Sep 23 21:17:37 2010 From: lynnvisson at GMAIL.COM (Lynn Visson) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 17:17:37 -0400 Subject: Michele Berdy's new book on Russian words and idioms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think you can pre-order on Amazon. If not, best is probably to write to Mickey Berdy, at maberdy at gmail.com Or try the contacting Northwestern University Press, which is the US distributo - LV On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Robert Chandler wrote: > I second everything Lynn says. Michele writes about complex matters with > extraordinary grace, subtlety and lightness. Her columns are both > entertaining and hugely informative. I am really happy that this is at > last > available and I'm sure I'll be consulting it almost daily. > > Vsego samogo dobrogo - and thanks to Natasha Perova and GLAS for bringing > this out! > > Robert > > > > > > Colleagues teaching and studying Russian should thoroughly enjoy Michele > > Berdy's new book, "The Russian Word's Worth," just out in Russia, > published > > by GLAS and distributed by Northwestern University Press in the US. > Nearly > > 500 pages long, it contains some five years of Mickey's "The Word's > Worth" > > columns, more than 200 of them, from the *Moscow Times *dealing with > dozens > > of difficulties in Russian for English speakers, and dozens of idioms. > The > > book is organized by themes with mini-intros and a detailed index. Many > of > > us have been reading these columns for years, and it will be great for > > teachers and students to finally have them all in one place. It's > available > > on Amazon. (PS - I have no vested or commercial interest whatever in > this > > book - just think that it will be invaluable for everyone!) > > > > Lynn Visson > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Philippe.FRISON at COE.INT Fri Sep 24 08:11:26 2010 From: Philippe.FRISON at COE.INT (FRISON Philippe) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 10:11:26 +0200 Subject: Tyuremny zamok In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: Would you help me to find an accurate definition for тюремный замок (tyuremny zamok), which seem to have been built all over the Russian Empire starting from Catherine II until the 1917 Revolution, after which they were briefly renamed as "дома лишения свободы" (doma lishenya svobody). The problem is that they seemed to have existed along with "остроги" (ostrogi) and пересыльные тюрьмы (peresylnye tyur'my). Butyrka was one of them. How can they be distinguished or more precisely defined? The only occurences I found so far are descriptions of local prisons (in Kishinev, on the Sibirsky trakt etc...). Philippe Frison (Strasbourg, France) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK Fri Sep 24 08:16:58 2010 From: Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK (Simon Beattie) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 09:16:58 +0100 Subject: Readings on childhood Message-ID: I'm singing in a concert to raise funds for a Belarusian children's hospice and we would like to have some readings interspersed with the musical items. Can anyone suggest any poems or short readings relating to childhood? They would need to be in English. Ideally, we'd like something happy or similar lighter material. Thanks. Simon Simon Beattie Antiquarian books and music 84 The Broadway | Chesham | Buckinghamshire | HP5 1EG | UK tel. +44 (0)1494 784954 | mobile/voicemail +44 (0)7717 707575 | e-mail simon at simonbeattie.co.uk VAT no. GB 983 5355 83 Join me on Facebook . ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From asured at VERIZON.NET Fri Sep 24 08:33:24 2010 From: asured at VERIZON.NET (Steve Marder) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 04:33:24 -0400 Subject: Tyuremny zamok In-Reply-To: <42E8F3C1A8950C4DB7DFF5833AA7FAD103859E7F@OBELIX.key.coe.int> Message-ID: For "Butyrka," perhaps "prison fortress." > Would you help me to find an accurate definition for тюремный замок (tyuremny > zamok), which seem to have been built all over > the Russian Empire starting from Catherine II until the 1917 Revolution, after > which they were briefly renamed as "дома лишения > свободы" (doma lishenya svobody). > > The problem is that they seemed to have existed along with "остроги" (ostrogi) > and пересыльные тюрьмы (peresylnye tyur'my). > > Butyrka was one of them. > > How can they be distinguished or more precisely defined? > > The only occurences I found so far are descriptions of local prisons (in > Kishinev, on the Sibirsky trakt etc...). > > Philippe Frison > (Strasbourg, France) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From asured at VERIZON.NET Fri Sep 24 09:02:26 2010 From: asured at VERIZON.NET (Steve Marder) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 05:02:26 -0400 Subject: Tyuremny zamok In-Reply-To: <42E8F3C1A8950C4DB7DFF5833AA7FAD103859E7F@OBELIX.key.coe.int> Message-ID: For "peresyl'naya tyur'ma," perhaps "transit prison." > Would you help me to find an accurate definition for тюремный замок (tyuremny > zamok), which seem to have been built all over > the Russian Empire starting from Catherine II until the 1917 Revolution, after > which they were briefly renamed as "дома лишения > свободы" (doma lishenya svobody). > > The problem is that they seemed to have existed along with "остроги" (ostrogi) > and пересыльные тюрьмы (peresylnye tyur'my). > > Butyrka was one of them. > > How can they be distinguished or more precisely defined? > > The only occurences I found so far are descriptions of local prisons (in > Kishinev, on the Sibirsky trakt etc...). > > Philippe Frison > (Strasbourg, France) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From maberdy at GMAIL.COM Fri Sep 24 11:01:38 2010 From: maberdy at GMAIL.COM (Michele A. Berdy) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:01:38 +0400 Subject: Michele Berdy's new book on Russian words and idioms Message-ID: Wow. Thanks! I think list etiquette allows me to say that the book has been printed and should be available within the next few weeks. In the US it's distributed by Northwestern University Press; in the UK -- by Central Books. As always, I will be grateful for any comments, criticism, and ideas for improvement. Cheers Mickey Berdy ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From lynnvisson at GMAIL.COM Fri Sep 24 14:23:35 2010 From: lynnvisson at GMAIL.COM (Lynn Visson) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 10:23:35 -0400 Subject: Michele Berdy's new book on Russian words and idioms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I pre-ordered the book on Amazon with no problems - found it under "Berdy," got confirmation of the order- LV On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 7:01 AM, Michele A. Berdy wrote: > Wow. Thanks! > I think list etiquette allows me to say that the book has been printed and > should be available within the next few weeks. In the US it's distributed by > Northwestern University Press; in the UK -- by Central Books. > As always, I will be grateful for any comments, criticism, and ideas for > improvement. > Cheers > Mickey Berdy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Adrienne_Harris at BAYLOR.EDU Fri Sep 24 14:36:44 2010 From: Adrienne_Harris at BAYLOR.EDU (Harris, Adrienne M.) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 09:36:44 -0500 Subject: pronunciation of ipod, ipad, mp3 player In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Seelangers who are currently in Russia or have been there recently, Do Russians pronounce "ipod" [ajpod] or [ajpad]? Does anyone know how they pronounce "ipad"? Is "mp3 player" still [εm pi trešnij plejer]? Thank you in advance, Adrienne Adrienne M. Harris, Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Russian Modern Foreign Languages Baylor University One Bear Place #97391 Waco, TX 76798-7391 (254) 710-3898 Adrienne_Harris at baylor.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Fri Sep 24 15:12:50 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 16:12:50 +0100 Subject: pronunciation of ipod, ipad, mp3 player In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What about "CD player"? I was always confused by that, as the full name is "kompakt disk" (Cyrillic doesn't always work on this, so I transliterated it), but the acronym is "SeeDee". K versus S (i.e. C), right? ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ On 24 September 2010 15:36, Harris, Adrienne M. wrote: > Dear Seelangers who are currently in Russia or have been there recently, > > Do Russians pronounce "ipod" [ajpod] or [ajpad]? Does anyone know how they > pronounce "ipad"? Is "mp3 player" still [εm pi trešnij plejer]? > > Thank you in advance, Adrienne > > > Adrienne M. Harris, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor of Russian > Modern Foreign Languages > Baylor University > > One Bear Place #97391 > Waco, TX 76798-7391 > (254) 710-3898 > Adrienne_Harris at baylor.edu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From k2kingdom at GMAIL.COM Fri Sep 24 15:26:54 2010 From: k2kingdom at GMAIL.COM (Mark Kingdom) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 18:26:54 +0300 Subject: pronunciation of ipod, ipad, mp3 player In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I know for sure that iPod is pronounced: Ай-под with a deep 'o'. (At least, here in Sevastopol.) Not sure about iPad. Meanwhile, and mp3 player is: эм-пи-три плеер. Hope this helps, Mark On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Harris, Adrienne M. < Adrienne_Harris at baylor.edu> wrote: > Dear Seelangers who are currently in Russia or have been there recently, > > Do Russians pronounce "ipod" [ajpod] or [ajpad]? Does anyone know how they > pronounce "ipad"? Is "mp3 player" still [εm pi trešnij plejer]? > > Thank you in advance, Adrienne > > > Adrienne M. Harris, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor of Russian > Modern Foreign Languages > Baylor University > > One Bear Place #97391 > Waco, TX 76798-7391 > (254) 710-3898 > Adrienne_Harris at baylor.edu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Philippe.FRISON at COE.INT Fri Sep 24 15:33:54 2010 From: Philippe.FRISON at COE.INT (FRISON Philippe) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 17:33:54 +0200 Subject: pronunciation of ipod, ipad, mp3 player In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: I found планшетный компьютер Ipad (айпад, айпед) or simply "планшет". http://rus-ipad.ru/ for "компакт-диски", Russians need CD-плееры / плейеры... You can find "айпод", but the browsers lead you more often to Latin "Ipod". А куда пропал могучий русский язык? Philippe Frison (Strasbourg, France) -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Stephanie Briggs Sent: Friday 24 September 2010 17:13 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] pronunciation of ipod, ipad, mp3 player What about "CD player"? I was always confused by that, as the full name is "kompakt disk" (Cyrillic doesn't always work on this, so I transliterated it), but the acronym is "SeeDee". K versus S (i.e. C), right? ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ On 24 September 2010 15:36, Harris, Adrienne M. wrote: > Dear Seelangers who are currently in Russia or have been there recently, > > Do Russians pronounce "ipod" [ajpod] or [ajpad]? Does anyone know how they > pronounce "ipad"? Is "mp3 player" still [εm pi trešnij plejer]? > > Thank you in advance, Adrienne > > > Adrienne M. Harris, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor of Russian > Modern Foreign Languages > Baylor University > > One Bear Place #97391 > Waco, TX 76798-7391 > (254) 710-3898 > Adrienne_Harris at baylor.edu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ericson at AMERICANCOUNCILS.ORG Fri Sep 24 16:05:13 2010 From: ericson at AMERICANCOUNCILS.ORG (Brita Ericson) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 11:05:13 -0500 Subject: Deadline Reminder: Language Study in Central Asia and Eastern Europe Message-ID: It's not too late to apply for the Spring 2011 Eurasian Regional Language Program! Applications must be postmarked on October 1st. American Councils for International Education: ACTR/ACCELS invites applications for the 2011 Eurasian Regional Language Program for language study in Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Moldova, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan or Ukraine. Applications and more information: http://www.aceurasiaabroad.org/ The Eurasian Regional Language Program provides graduate students, advanced undergraduates, scholars, and working professionals intensive individualized instruction in the languages of Eurasia. Participants may enroll in semester, academic year, or summer programs. Courses are designed to strengthen speaking, listening, reading, and writing proficiency in the language of study. Program features include: core language courses focusing on grammar and lexical studies, phonetics, vocabulary development, and conversational skills; area studies, literature, and culture classes for advanced students; classes conducted in small groups of three to six students or in private tutorials; native-speaking faculty with extensive experience teaching foreign students; homestays with local families; undergraduate or graduate credit from Bryn Mawr College; pre-departure orientation in Washington, D.C.; and logistical support provided by local American Councils offices. Students with at least two years of college-level instruction in the target language, Russian, or a language related to the target language are eligible to apply to the program. Languages offered: *Armenian in Yerevan, Armenia *Azeri in Baku, Azerbaijan *Chechen or Georgian in Tbilisi, Georgia *Kazakh in Almaty, Kazakhstan *Romanian in Chisinau, Moldova *Persian (Dari, Farsi, Tajiki) or Uzbek in Dushanbe, Tajikistan *Turkmen in Ashgabat, Turkmenistan *Ukrainian in Kyiv, Ukraine Fellowships are available through American Councils from U.S. Department of State (Title VIII) and U.S. Department of Education (Fulbright-Hays) grant support. Recent program participants have also received substantial fellowship support from the National Security Education Program (http://www.borenawards.org/), the Benjamin A. Gilman International Scholarship (http://www.iie.org/gilman), and the U.S. Department of Education Title VI (FLAS). Application deadlines Summer Program: March 1 Fall Semester/Academic Year Program: April 1 Spring Semester: October 1 For more information, please contact: Russian and Eurasian Outbound Programs American Councils for International Education: ACTR/ACCELS 1828 L St., NW Suite 1200 Washington, DC 20036 Telephone: (202) 833-7522 Email: outbound at americancouncils.org Website: http://www.aceurasiaabroad.org/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Fri Sep 24 16:10:39 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 17:10:39 +0100 Subject: pronunciation of ipod, ipad, mp3 player In-Reply-To: <42E8F3C1A8950C4DB7DFF5833AA7FAD103859E83@OBELIX.key.coe.int> Message-ID: Oh no, the Borg have assimilated the Russian language! ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ On 24 September 2010 16:33, FRISON Philippe wrote: > I found планшетный компьютер Ipad (айпад, айпед) or simply "планшет". > http://rus-ipad.ru/ > > for "компакт-диски", Russians need CD-плееры / плейеры... > > You can find "айпод", but the browsers lead you more often to Latin "Ipod". > > А куда пропал могучий русский язык? > > Philippe Frison > (Strasbourg, France) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list > [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Stephanie Briggs > Sent: Friday 24 September 2010 17:13 > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] pronunciation of ipod, ipad, mp3 player > > What about "CD player"? I was always confused by that, as the full name is > "kompakt disk" (Cyrillic doesn't always work on this, so I transliterated > it), but the acronym is "SeeDee". K versus S (i.e. C), right? > > ***************************** > ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs > http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ > > Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! > THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! > http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ > > > > > On 24 September 2010 15:36, Harris, Adrienne M. > wrote: > > > Dear Seelangers who are currently in Russia or have been there recently, > > > > Do Russians pronounce "ipod" [ajpod] or [ajpad]? Does anyone know how > they > > pronounce "ipad"? Is "mp3 player" still [εm pi trešnij plejer]? > > > > Thank you in advance, Adrienne > > > > > > Adrienne M. Harris, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor of Russian > > Modern Foreign Languages > > Baylor University > > > > One Bear Place #97391 > > Waco, TX 76798-7391 > > (254) 710-3898 > > Adrienne_Harris at baylor.edu > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Adrienne_Harris at BAYLOR.EDU Fri Sep 24 16:17:56 2010 From: Adrienne_Harris at BAYLOR.EDU (Harris, Adrienne M.) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 11:17:56 -0500 Subject: pronunciation of ipod, ipad, mp3 player In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, thank you--that's what I needed! I was concerned about the actual pronunciation, rather than the spelling. I know they usually write ipod and mp3, etc. I encountered [εm pi trešnij plejer] in a 2006 pop song. Maybe that pronunciation's been eclipsed by the simple эм-пи-три плеер. Adrienne -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Kingdom Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:27 AM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] pronunciation of ipod, ipad, mp3 player I know for sure that iPod is pronounced: Ай-под with a deep 'o'. (At least, here in Sevastopol.) Not sure about iPad. Meanwhile, and mp3 player is: эм-пи-три плеер. Hope this helps, Mark On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Harris, Adrienne M. < Adrienne_Harris at baylor.edu> wrote: > Dear Seelangers who are currently in Russia or have been there recently, > > Do Russians pronounce "ipod" [ajpod] or [ajpad]? Does anyone know how they > pronounce "ipad"? Is "mp3 player" still [εm pi trešnij plejer]? > > Thank you in advance, Adrienne > > > Adrienne M. Harris, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor of Russian > Modern Foreign Languages > Baylor University > > One Bear Place #97391 > Waco, TX 76798-7391 > (254) 710-3898 > Adrienne_Harris at baylor.edu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From e.gapova at GMAIL.COM Fri Sep 24 16:26:52 2010 From: e.gapova at GMAIL.COM (Elena Gapova) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:26:52 -0400 Subject: Fwd: "Alcohol in Russia" conference Message-ID: Dear all, I remember seeing a question from a list member about literature on vodka. It looks like there's going to be a conference on a related matter. e.g. МИНИСТЕРСТВО ОБРАЗОВАНИЯ И НАУКИ РФ Филиал Государственного образовательного учреждения высшего профессионального образования <<РОССИЙСКИЙ ГОСУДАРСТВЕННЫЙ ГУМАНИТАРНЫЙ УНИВЕРСИТЕТ>> в г. Иваново ИНФОРМАЦИОННОЕ ПИСЬМО Уважаемые коллеги! Приглашаем Вас принять участие в работе I Международной научно-практической конференции <<АЛКОГОЛЬ В РОССИИ>> (29-30 октября 2010 г.) Работу конференции планируется организовать по следующим направлениям: - Историко-культурные и философские аспекты потребления алкогольных напитков - Актуальные проблемы производства и продажи алкогольных напитков - Национальные особенности пьянства и алкоголизма - Государственная <<питейная>> политика: история и современность - Трезвенное движение: история и современность К участию в конференции приглашаются историки, культурологи, социологи, филологи, политологи, экономисты, юристы, медики, химики, биологи, государственные и муниципальные служащие, представители силовых структур, священнослужители, руководители и активисты общественных объединений, а также специалисты, непосредственно связанные с производством и продажей алкогольной продукции. Рабочие языки конференции: русский, английский. Заявки на участие в конференции принимаются до 30 сентября 2010 г. по электронному адресу: rggu37 at mail.ru. В заявке следует указать: Ф.И.О., место работы, должность, ученую степень, телефон, e-mail. К заявке следует приложить тезисы доклада (1 страница). По итогам конференции будет проведен круглый стол. Материалы конференции будут опубликованы в сборнике <<Алкоголь в России>> и на сайте www.ivrggu.ru. Тематика конференции заявлена максимально широко. Сделано это неслучайно, - одна из острейших насущных проблем культурной, общественной и экономической жизни России требует подробного всестороннего изучения. Цель конференции - объединить работу специалистов в области <<алкогольного вопроса>> в России для обмена опытом, проведения совместных проектов, создания коллективных монографий, выработки практических действенных рекомендаций в области регулирования рынка алкоголя. В последующем планируется организовать эту работу на постоянной основе. Тематика последующих конференций будет уточняться по ходу работы секций и круглого стола. Условия участия в конференции: К публикации принимаются статьи объемом до 0,5 п.л. (20 000 печатных знаков). Представленный текст должен быть вычитан, за содержание публикации ответственность несут авторы. Оргкомитет оставляет за собой право отбора материалов для публикации. Публикация и рассылка сборника осуществляется за счет организаторов, проезд и проживание осуществляется за счет участников конференции. Возможна публикация статей без очного участия в работе конференции. Контактные лица: Теплянский Михаил Викторович, Мазин Сергей Игоревич - 8 (4932) 30-08-19, Тимофеев Михаил Юрьевич - timofeew at inbox.ru пр. Фридриха Энгельса, д. 21, каб. 137, г. Иваново, 153000, тел./факс: (4932) 30-08-19, тел.: 8-901-194-29-77 ОКПО 50399183 ОГРН 1037700067118 ИНН/КПП 7707033405/ 370202002 E-mail: rggu37 at mail.ru From gladney at ILLINOIS.EDU Fri Sep 24 16:44:02 2010 From: gladney at ILLINOIS.EDU (Frank Gladney) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 11:44:02 -0500 Subject: short vowels in Common Slavic Message-ID: Alan Timberlake's 23 Sept 10 posting reviews some familiar facts about the vowels of Common and early dialectal Slavic: >>Slavic emerged from Indo-European with a distinction of long and short >>vowels that have quite regular and well-known reflexes in attested Slavic. >>Thus long e gives jat, short e gives e; long i gives attested i, short i gives >>attested front jer. Around the end of the Common Slavic period, original >>long vowels were shortened in certain accentual positions ([Jakobson's] >>“conditions musicales”), different in different dialects (under the circumflex >>in Czech, under the acute in S-Cr, under both in Polish). Crucially, the >>shortened vowels did not merge with the original short vowels. Thus for >>example a shortened long i did not become a front jer, which was the >>(usual) reflex of an original short i. By the time of the shortening, vowels >>must already have been different in quality: for example, the original short i >>had become a front jer, a centralized lax vowel. If the distinction between i >>and front jer had been simply quantity, this shortening! should have led to >>merger. The fact that the shortened longs did not merge with the original >>shorts allows a new new distinction of quantity to develop in vowels (in >>some of Slavic).: a long i where length was preserved, a short i where length >>was lost (for example, under the acute accent in S-CR). […] For example, in Czech an earlier /si:lu/ 'strength' (gen pl) shortened to /silu/, but its stem vowel did not merge with that of /dini/ 'day' (nom sg): the vowel of /dini/ lowered to /e/--_den_--but the /i/ of /silu/ did not--_sil_. How did new /i/ avoid merging with old /i/? One explanation is that old /i/ in /dini/ lowered to /e/ before /i:/ in /si:lu/ shortened to new /i/. Another (less parsimonious) explanation is that old /i/ "had become a front jer, a centralized lax vowel" (I'll write it /@/) before /i:/ shortened to /i/, and that /@/ shifted to /e/. Thus /dini/ → /d at n@/ → _den_, but /si:lu/ → /silu/ → _sil_. It is reasonable to suppose that the long vowels inherited from Indo-European besides being long were also tense, in contrast to the short vowels, which were lax. And since length gives the tongue more time to reach its target position, long vowels were probably more peripheral compared with the more central short vowels. So /e:/ (jat') was more open and fronted and /e/, which was more central. So if /@/ was centralized and lax, how did it differ from /e/? Frank Y. Gladney ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From moss at MIDDLEBURY.EDU Fri Sep 24 16:43:58 2010 From: moss at MIDDLEBURY.EDU (Kevin Moss) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:43:58 -0400 Subject: heteronormativity / diversity in foreign language pedagogy Message-ID: My colleagues at Middlebury have begun addressing issues of heteronormativity in language pedagogy both at Middlebury and the schools abroad. If Seelangers out there have any thoughts on this, I'd love to hear them. We're now expanding the discussion to include other kinds of diversity as well (race, class, disability, where appropriate). Here were our original questions and the feedback from the first meeting: Some topics we should address: 1. How to make space in dialogues / roleplay for non-normative gender and sexuality, family structures, romance. 2. How can we teach terms / concepts in the target language for sexual identity: slang, in-group language, pejorative terms. 3. Textbooks: which textbooks actually allow this to happen and how can we supplement those that don't? 4. Cultural context in the target country(ies), including what not to say. What is the legal and social status of queers? Feedback from the first meeting last year: Several students commented on skits, videos, or activities that seemed to reinforce gender/sexuality archetypes. Some faculty did not allow, for example, two male-identified students to participate in a dialog between marriage partners. Some class activities were described as “appallingly normative.” In most cases, if the students themselves took the initiative to point out these situations to faculty, they later became more open. The general impression is that faculty are worried that other (presumably heterosexual and normatively gendered) students would feel uncomfortable with queering activities, that it’s more a case of “harmless ignorance” than an intentional policy. But should the burden of correcting the erasure of queerness be on the students? Some students also commented that while occasionally students did perform the “other” gender in dialogs, this often became an object of exaggerated gender performance and humor. Some suggestions / best practices / things to consider: 1. Faculty can acknowledge discomfort or ignorance about the topic, rather than merely remaining silent. 2. Make space in dialogs, skits, videos for non-heteronormative families and romance. 3. We should find and share any resources out there, for example in ESL pedagogy, that can serve as a model for addressing gender and sexuality in an inclusive way. Invite language departments to think about how their curriculum addresses these issues. 4. Some textbooks have been updated, and we would like to see inclusion of queer gender and sexuality as well as race / ethnicity / disability in any new materials we produce, including addressing these issues in the K12 language initiative. 5. Gender segregation in dorms both during the academic year and in Language Schools naturalizes gender in a way that may make some students uncomfortable. 6. Gender and queer issues should be addressed in the preparation of students for study abroad, both in upper-level courses and in the orientation sessions run by the study abroad office (this happened last year already and should be continued). Kevin Moss ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From anna.ronell at GMAIL.COM Fri Sep 24 18:07:17 2010 From: anna.ronell at GMAIL.COM (Anna Ronell) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:07:17 -0400 Subject: heteronormativity / diversity in foreign language pedagogy In-Reply-To: <1906462A-EADB-4554-A053-294925E0BFE5@middlebury.edu> Message-ID: Hi, just thought to add my two cents to this discussion. Growing up in the USSR and later being part of the Russian-Jewish communities both in Israel and the US has taught me that me that Russian culture in general (and its Soviet variant specifically) are extremely homophobic, racist, and misogynist. The level of intolerance I have encountered is mind-boggling, which is what I usually honestly tell the students. It is especially important to warn the students who plan to travel to Russia that the tolerance towards sexual difference they take for granted in the US should not be expected in Russia. On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 12:43 PM, Kevin Moss wrote: > My colleagues at Middlebury have begun addressing issues of > heteronormativity in language pedagogy both at Middlebury and the schools > abroad. If Seelangers out there have any thoughts on this, I'd love to hear > them. We're now expanding the discussion to include other kinds of diversity > as well (race, class, disability, where appropriate). > > Here were our original questions and the feedback from the first meeting: > > Some topics we should address: > > 1. How to make space in dialogues / roleplay for non-normative gender and > sexuality, family structures, romance. > > 2. How can we teach terms / concepts in the target language for sexual > identity: slang, in-group language, pejorative terms. > > 3. Textbooks: which textbooks actually allow this to happen and how can we > supplement those that don't? > > 4. Cultural context in the target country(ies), including what not to say. > What is the legal and social status of queers? > > Feedback from the first meeting last year: > > Several students commented on skits, videos, or activities that seemed to > reinforce gender/sexuality archetypes. Some faculty did not allow, for > example, two male-identified students to participate in a dialog between > marriage partners. Some class activities were described as “appallingly > normative.” In most cases, if the students themselves took the initiative to > point out these situations to faculty, they later became more open. The > general impression is that faculty are worried that other (presumably > heterosexual and normatively gendered) students would feel uncomfortable > with queering activities, that it’s more a case of “harmless ignorance” than > an intentional policy. But should the burden of correcting the erasure of > queerness be on the students? Some students also commented that while > occasionally students did perform the “other” gender in dialogs, this often > became an object of exaggerated gender performance and humor. > > Some suggestions / best practices / things to consider: > > 1. Faculty can acknowledge discomfort or ignorance about the topic, rather > than merely remaining silent. > > 2. Make space in dialogs, skits, videos for non-heteronormative families and > romance. > > 3. We should find and share any resources out there, for example in ESL > pedagogy, that can serve as a model for addressing gender and sexuality in > an inclusive way. Invite language departments to think about how their > curriculum addresses these issues. > > 4. Some textbooks have been updated, and we would like to see inclusion of > queer gender and sexuality as well as race / ethnicity / disability in any > new materials we produce, including addressing these issues in the K12 > language initiative. > >  5. Gender segregation in dorms both during the academic year and in > Language Schools naturalizes gender in a way that may make some students > uncomfortable. > >  6. Gender and queer issues should be addressed in the preparation of > students for study abroad, both in upper-level courses and in the > orientation sessions run by the study abroad office (this happened last year > already and should be continued). > > Kevin Moss > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >  options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >                   http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From marina.teterina at GMAIL.COM Fri Sep 24 21:40:57 2010 From: marina.teterina at GMAIL.COM (Marina Teterina) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 17:40:57 -0400 Subject: pronunciation of ipod, ipad, mp3 player In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello all, I heard the following pronunciation (not spelling) of these words in Russia: си-ди плеер (произносится как "плэйер") эм-пэ-три плеер ай-под ай-пэд Hope that is helpful. Marina Teterina On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 12:17 PM, Harris, Adrienne M. < Adrienne_Harris at baylor.edu> wrote: > Yes, thank you--that's what I needed! I was concerned about the actual > pronunciation, rather than the spelling. I know they usually write ipod and > mp3, etc. I encountered [εm pi trešnij plejer] in a 2006 pop song. Maybe > that pronunciation's been eclipsed by the simple эм-пи-три плеер. Adrienne > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list > [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Kingdom > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:27 AM > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] pronunciation of ipod, ipad, mp3 player > > I know for sure that iPod is pronounced: Ай-под with a deep 'o'. (At > least, > here in Sevastopol.) > Not sure about iPad. Meanwhile, and mp3 player is: эм-пи-три плеер. > > Hope this helps, > > Mark > > > > On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Harris, Adrienne M. < > Adrienne_Harris at baylor.edu> wrote: > > > Dear Seelangers who are currently in Russia or have been there recently, > > > > Do Russians pronounce "ipod" [ajpod] or [ajpad]? Does anyone know how > they > > pronounce "ipad"? Is "mp3 player" still [εm pi trešnij plejer]? > > > > Thank you in advance, Adrienne > > > > > > Adrienne M. Harris, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor of Russian > > Modern Foreign Languages > > Baylor University > > > > One Bear Place #97391 > > Waco, TX 76798-7391 > > (254) 710-3898 > > Adrienne_Harris at baylor.edu > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU Fri Sep 24 21:48:52 2010 From: mtsmith02 at YSU.EDU (Melissa Smith) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 17:48:52 -0400 Subject: heteronormativity / diversity in foreign language pedagogy Message-ID: As I read this message, NPR's All Things Considered was playing a story about a black Russian politician and the racial issues he considered: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130102777 Melissa Smith On 9/24/10 2:07 PM, Anna Ronell wrote: > Hi, just thought to add my two cents to this discussion. Growing up in > the USSR and later being part of the Russian-Jewish communities both > in Israel and the US has taught me that me that Russian culture in > general (and its Soviet variant specifically) are extremely > homophobic, racist, and misogynist. The level of intolerance I have > encountered is mind-boggling, which is what I usually honestly tell > the students. It is especially important to warn the students who plan > to travel to Russia that the tolerance towards sexual difference they > take for granted in the US should not be expected in Russia. > > > On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 12:43 PM, Kevin Moss wrote: > > My colleagues at Middlebury have begun addressing issues of > > heteronormativity in language pedagogy both at Middlebury and the schools > > abroad. If Seelangers out there have any thoughts on this, I'd love to hear > > them. We're now expanding the discussion to include other kinds of diversity > > as well (race, class, disability, where appropriate). > > > > Here were our original questions and the feedback from the first meeting: > > > > Some topics we should address: > > > > 1. How to make space in dialogues / roleplay for non-normative gender and > > sexuality, family structures, romance. > > > > 2. How can we teach terms / concepts in the target language for sexual > > identity: slang, in-group language, pejorative terms. > > > > 3. Textbooks: which textbooks actually allow this to happen and how can we > > supplement those that don't? > > > > 4. Cultural context in the target country(ies), including what not to say. > > What is the legal and social status of queers? > > > > Feedback from the first meeting last year: > > > > Several students commented on skits, videos, or activities that seemed to > > reinforce gender/sexuality archetypes. Some faculty did not allow, for > > example, two male-identified students to participate in a dialog between > > marriage partners. Some class activities were described as “appallingly > > normative.” In most cases, if the students themselves took the initiative to > > point out these situations to faculty, they later became more open. The > > general impression is that faculty are worried that other (presumably > > heterosexual and normatively gendered) students would feel uncomfortable > > with queering activities, that it’s more a case of “harmless ignorance” than > > an intentional policy. But should the burden of correcting the erasure of > > queerness be on the students? Some students also commented that while > > occasionally students did perform the “other” gender in dialogs, this often > > became an object of exaggerated gender performance and humor. > > > > Some suggestions / best practices / things to consider: > > > > 1. Faculty can acknowledge discomfort or ignorance about the topic, rather > > than merely remaining silent. > > > > 2. Make space in dialogs, skits, videos for non-heteronormative families and > > romance. > > > > 3. We should find and share any resources out there, for example in ESL > > pedagogy, that can serve as a model for addressing gender and sexuality in > > an inclusive way. Invite language departments to think about how their > > curriculum addresses these issues. > > > > 4. Some textbooks have been updated, and we would like to see inclusion of > > queer gender and sexuality as well as race / ethnicity / disability in any > > new materials we produce, including addressing these issues in the K12 > > language initiative. > > > >  5. Gender segregation in dorms both during the academic year and in > > Language Schools naturalizes gender in a way that may make some students > > uncomfortable. > > > >  6. Gender and queer issues should be addressed in the preparation of > > students for study abroad, both in upper-level courses and in the > > orientation sessions run by the study abroad office (this happened last year > > already and should be continued). > > > > Kevin Moss > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > >  options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > >                   http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------ Melissa T. Smith, Professor Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures Youngstown State University Youngstown, OH 44555 Tel: (330)941-3462 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From refird at VT.EDU Fri Sep 24 23:22:02 2010 From: refird at VT.EDU (Robert Efird) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 19:22:02 -0400 Subject: pronunciation of ipod, ipad, mp3 player In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sep 24, 2010, at 12:17 PM, "Harris, Adrienne M." wrote: > Yes, thank you--that's what I needed! I was concerned about the actual pronunciation, rather than the spelling. I know they usually write ipod and mp3, etc. I encountered [εm pi trešnij plejer] in a 2006 pop song. Maybe that pronunciation's been eclipsed by the simple эм-пи-три плеер. Adrienne > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Kingdom > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:27 AM > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] pronunciation of ipod, ipad, mp3 player > > I know for sure that iPod is pronounced: Ай-под with a deep 'o'. (At least, > here in Sevastopol.) > Not sure about iPad. Meanwhile, and mp3 player is: эм-пи-три плеер. > > Hope this helps, > > Mark > > > > On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Harris, Adrienne M. < > Adrienne_Harris at baylor.edu> wrote: > >> Dear Seelangers who are currently in Russia or have been there recently, >> >> Do Russians pronounce "ipod" [ajpod] or [ajpad]? Does anyone know how they >> pronounce "ipad"? Is "mp3 player" still [εm pi trešnij plejer]? >> >> Thank you in advance, Adrienne >> >> >> Adrienne M. Harris, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor of Russian >> Modern Foreign Languages >> Baylor University >> >> One Bear Place #97391 >> Waco, TX 76798-7391 >> (254) 710-3898 >> Adrienne_Harris at baylor.edu >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Sat Sep 25 20:12:40 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 21:12:40 +0100 Subject: Tsar'-devitsa again Message-ID: Dear all, Ivan Tsarevich is overwhelmed by the beautyof the sleeping Marya-Krasa, Dolga Kosa. And so “Что мне не честь!” разгорелось у молодца ретивое сердце. Is he saying ‘What does my honour matter to me?’ I cannot make sense of his words grammatically. Also, I would have thought it was more a matter of HER rather than HIS honour being sullied! All the best, Robert ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Sat Sep 25 23:37:25 2010 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 00:37:25 +0100 Subject: Tsar'-devitsa again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Could you give a bit more context? chest' is also a verb "to read; consider", and ne chest' could be for nechest', "shame". Will On 25/09/2010 21:12, Robert Chandler wrote: > Dear all, > > Ivan Tsarevich is overwhelmed by the beautyof the sleeping Marya-Krasa, > Dolga Kosa. And so > > “Что мне не честь!” разгорелось у молодца ретивое сердце. > > Is he saying ‘What does my honour matter to me?’ I cannot make sense of his > words grammatically. Also, I would have thought it was more a matter of HER > rather than HIS honour being sullied! > > All the best, > > Robert > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From asured at VERIZON.NET Sat Sep 25 23:47:34 2010 From: asured at VERIZON.NET (Steve Marder) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 19:47:34 -0400 Subject: Tsar'-devitsa again In-Reply-To: <4C9E87B5.2030709@sas.ac.uk> Message-ID: > Could you give a bit more context? chest' is also a verb "to read; > consider", and ne chest' could be for nechest', "shame". > Will Let me jump in with this: http://tinyurl.com/26ytjmz ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ingsoc at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Sep 26 00:09:37 2010 From: ingsoc at EARTHLINK.NET (Boris Dralyuk) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 17:09:37 -0700 Subject: Tsar'-devitsa again Message-ID: Dear All, I sent the following response to Mr. Chandler alone. (I'm new to the list, and hadn't quite figured out how these things work!) Here's what I wrote: I believe our Tsarevich's negation is a kind of emphasis -- colorful grammar, indeed. He simply means "What a great honour (has been granted me)!" It's not quite litotes, but if we 'restore' an elided "малая", we get "Что мне не (малая) честь!" Yours, Boris Dralyuk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Marder" To: Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 4:47 PM Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Tsar'-devitsa again >> Could you give a bit more context? chest' is also a verb "to read; >> consider", and ne chest' could be for nechest', "shame". >> Will > > Let me jump in with this: > > http://tinyurl.com/26ytjmz > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3159 - Release Date: 09/25/10 10:45:00 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Sun Sep 26 05:15:50 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 06:15:50 +0100 Subject: Tsar'-devitsa again In-Reply-To: <4C9E87B5.2030709@sas.ac.uk> Message-ID: Ivan Tsarevich has entered the bedroom where she sleeps, he is excited by her beauty, he says these words to himself and then he gets into bed with her, "waters his horse in her well" and leaves, without having awoken her. I like Boris Dralyuks's suggestion: I believe our Tsarevich's negation is a kind of emphasis -- colorful grammar, indeed. He simply means "What a great honour (has been granted me)!" It's not quite litotes, but if we 'restore' an elided "малая", we get "Что мне не малая честь!" Best Wishes, Robert > Could you give a bit more context? chest' is also a verb "to read; > consider", and ne chest' could be for nechest', "shame". > Will > > On 25/09/2010 21:12, Robert Chandler wrote: >> Dear all, >> >> Ivan Tsarevich is overwhelmed by the beautyof the sleeping Marya-Krasa, >> Dolga Kosa. And so >> >> “Что мне не честь!” разгорелось у молодца ретивое сердце. >> >> Is he saying ‘What does my honour matter to me?’ I cannot make sense of his >> words grammatically. Also, I would have thought it was more a matter of HER >> rather than HIS honour being sullied! >> >> All the best, >> >> Robert >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK Sun Sep 26 10:38:21 2010 From: Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK (Alexandra Smith) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 11:38:21 +0100 Subject: Tsar'-devitsa again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Robert, I agree with Boris's suggestion that this is an example of colourful language that is used for emphasising purposes and does not refer to negation. The construction with the word "chto" is often used in poetry. See one example below from Arseny Tarkovsky's poem: На каждый звук есть эхо на земле. У пастухов кипел кулеш в котле, Почесывались овцы рядом с нами И черными стучали башмачками. Что деньги мне? Что мне почет и честь В степи вечерней без конца и края? С Овидием хочу я брынзу есть И горевать на берегу Дуная, Не различать далеких голосов, Не ждать благословенных парусов. I'm not sure though that your example "chto mne ne chest'!" should be translated as the expression "what a great honour!". Given the fact that there are references to "retivoe sertdtse" and to the verb "razgorelos' ", I think that the narration implies a challenging situation. I personally would understand this phrase as something that is exciting and challenging. Perhaps, it would be better to translate it as follows: "I must rise to the challenge!". I think that Tsarevich thinks to himself that he would be glad and honoured to rise to the challenge and seduce such a beautiful girl. He feels that he is capable of doing so. All best, Sasha Smith ------------------------------------------- Alexandra Smith (PhD, University of London) Reader in Russian Studies Department of European Languages and Cultures School of Languages, Literatures and Cultures The University of Edinburgh David Hume Tower George Square Edinburgh EH8 9JX UK tel. +44-(0)131-6511381 fax: +44- (0)131 -651 -1482 e-mail: Alexandra.Smith at ed.ac.uk -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ingsoc at earthlink.net Sun Sep 26 16:06:10 2010 From: ingsoc at earthlink.net (Boris Dralyuk) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 09:06:10 -0700 Subject: Tsar'-devitsa again Message-ID: I think Alexandra is quite right about the implication of challenge, but I don't see why you ought to jettison "honour". Why not simply orient the phrase toward the future: "What a great honour it would be?" That seems to handle the challenge. Also, I read the "Chto" in Tarkovsky's lovely poem a bit differently; the construction there seems to mean "What does X matter to me, when...?" In the fairytale, the "Что...?" is closer to "Какая...?" -- in other words, it's "Что (за)...?" What one can do with a few words! Yours, Boris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexandra Smith" To: Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2010 3:38 AM Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Tsar'-devitsa again > Dear Robert, > > > I agree with Boris's suggestion that this is an example of colourful > language that is used for emphasising purposes and does not refer to > negation. The construction with the word "chto" is often used in > poetry. See one example below from Arseny Tarkovsky's poem: > > На каждый звук есть эхо на земле. > У пастухов кипел кулеш в котле, > Почесывались овцы рядом с нами > И черными стучали башмачками. > Что деньги мне? Что мне почет и честь > В степи вечерней без конца и края? > С Овидием хочу я брынзу есть > И горевать на берегу Дуная, > Не различать далеких голосов, > Не ждать благословенных парусов. > > I'm not sure though that your example "chto mne ne chest'!" should be > translated as the expression "what a great honour!". Given the fact > that there are references to "retivoe sertdtse" and to the verb > "razgorelos' ", I think that the narration implies a challenging > situation. I personally would understand this phrase as something that > is exciting and challenging. Perhaps, it would be better to translate > it as follows: "I must rise to the challenge!". > I think that Tsarevich thinks to himself that he would be glad and > honoured to rise to the challenge and seduce such a beautiful girl. He > feels that he is capable of doing so. > > All best, > Sasha Smith > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > Alexandra Smith (PhD, University of London) > Reader in Russian Studies > Department of European Languages and Cultures > School of Languages, Literatures and Cultures > The University of Edinburgh > David Hume Tower > George Square > Edinburgh EH8 9JX > UK > > tel. +44-(0)131-6511381 > fax: +44- (0)131 -651 -1482 > e-mail: Alexandra.Smith at ed.ac.uk > > > > -- > The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in > Scotland, with registration number SC005336. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3159 - Release Date: 09/25/10 10:45:00 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Sun Sep 26 16:26:09 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 17:26:09 +0100 Subject: Tsar'-devitsa : 3 questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all, First: With regard to my earlier question about “Что мне не честь!”, I am wondering whether "Что" can best be understood as a substitute for "Неужели": "Is it not an honour for me?" This is, in fact, close to the meanings advanced by Boris and Sasha. That честь is indeed a noun here is (at least partially) confirmed by a later occurrence in this story of the phrase "Не честь–хвала да молдецкая!" ____________________________ After going to bed with the Tsar'-devitsa, Ivan makes his escape. She chases after him. She speaks in turn to 3 Baba Yaga figures (she is, in fact, their niece). They all do their best to help Ivan, who has made friends with them earlier in the story. To the Tsar-Maiden's question as to whether she has seen Ivan, the first Yaga replies: "Ах, мое дитятко!" говорит. "И никуда от твоих рук уйдет; он колом погоняет." The second Yaga replies: "Дитятко!" говорит. "Какой-то дурачек едет; бьет - лошаденка поткается; больше нейдет." And the third replies: "Какой-то дурак уж на кони кожу несет." All three Yagas are basically saying that Ivan is struggling to keep his exhausted horse on the go, that he is having to whip it and beat it. Am I right in understanding the third Yaga to be saying that he is, in effect, flaying his horse, whipping the skin off it? ______________________________________ And lastly Ivan's elder brother robs him of his various trophies. Ivan returns to his city incognito and on foot. But I don't understand the very last words in this paragraph. What does на ряду mean here? Идет Иван-царевич пешком в свой град. И зайди по питейным домам, с удальцами на ряду. SPASIBO! Robert R. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Sun Sep 26 17:01:06 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 13:01:06 -0400 Subject: Tsar'-devitsa again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think what the text has is a variant of the perfectly idiomatic "chem mne ne chest'?" (what an honour it is to me! prove me wrong!) --only with the nominative chto istead of the instr. chem. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kotsyuba at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Sep 26 21:05:18 2010 From: kotsyuba at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Oleh Kotsyuba (Harvard Univ)) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 17:05:18 -0400 Subject: New issue of "Krytyka" is now available Message-ID: Dear friends, the new issue of journal "Krytyka" (no. 7-8, 2010) is now available for purchase - please follow the link below to find out how you can either subscribe for the journal or purchase a particular issue: http://krytyka.com/cms/front_content.php?idart=64 Some articles from the new issue are also available for download in PDF format on our web site www.krytyka.com. The previous issue of "Krytyka" (no. 5-6, 2010), dedicated to Poland's "Two Decades of Freedom," is now also available on our web site www.krytyka.com . Please find below the table of contents for both issues. Enjoy Ukraine's finest intellectual magazine, very best, Oleh Kotsyuba - Editor, www.krytyka.com Рік XIV, Число 7–8 (153–154) Summary (in English) Михайло Мінаков. Якість влади: спроба оцінки українських еліт Андреа Ґраціозі. Про реальність, етику й політику Микола Рябчук. Реконструкція реґіону Олександр Богомолов, Ігор Семиволос. Кримськотатарський газетний дискурс: уявлення про інших Дискусія: Іван Химка. Визнання попри знання? Віталій Пономарьов. Дегероїзація Опору Нікляс Бернсанд. Безневинність пам’яті Тамара Гундорова. Симптоматика «хворого тіла» Євгенія Кононенко. Дама з химерами Юрко Прохасько. Дон Кіхот із Коломиї Лідія Стефановська. Подорожі Пана Коґіто Костянтин Москалець. Час на дотик Лист до «Критики»: Франк Сисин Ірина Шувалова. Можливість неможливого: лабораторна робота Жозе Сарамаґу Остап Середа. Пам’яті Ярослава Ісаєвича Андрій Портнов. Історик і його традиція Рік XIV, Число 5–6 (151–152) Summary (in English) Тадеуш Домбровський. Вулкан жалоби Влодзімєж Марціняк. 1989 рік і крах ялтинського режиму Марцін Куля. «Солідарність» як модель демократії Іренеуш Кшемінський. Валенса і польська традиція Андрій Павлишин. Якого пам’ятника заслуговує Яцек Куронь? Павел Спєвак. Ідеологічні суперечки та розмови про пам’ять Алєксандер Смоляр. Влада й географія пам’яті Мирослав Маринович. Польща й Україна після медового місяця Ґжеґож Мотика. Поляки й українці між Волинню й Віслою Боґуслав Бакула. Нестерпна легкість тягаря Пьотр Косєвський. Довгі двадцять років Єжи Єдліцький. Лєшек Колаковський: історія та відповідальність Лєшек Колаковський. Тези про надію і безнадійність From edseelangs at GMAIL.COM Mon Sep 27 03:21:23 2010 From: edseelangs at GMAIL.COM (Edward Dumanis) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 23:21:23 -0400 Subject: Tsar'-devitsa again In-Reply-To: <20100926130106.AGA29531@mstore-prod-2.pdc.uis.georgetown.edu> Message-ID: I'd second Olga's interpretation. Sincerely, Edward Dumanis On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Olga Meerson wrote: > I think what the text has is a variant of the perfectly idiomatic "chem mne ne chest'?" (what an honour it is to me! prove me wrong!) --only with the nominative chto istead of the instr. chem. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >  Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >  options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >                    http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From KrafcikP at EVERGREEN.EDU Mon Sep 27 04:51:51 2010 From: KrafcikP at EVERGREEN.EDU (Krafcik, Patricia) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 21:51:51 -0700 Subject: Nachalo Text/Workbook/CD--OK Message-ID: Dear Colleagues-- Just a quick note here to let you know that indeed the Nachalo text/workbook/audio CD package is still alive and well and available from McGraw-Hill. The misinformation provided to our bookstore buyer at Evergreen was corrected by our M-H representative who, after a few phone calls at the very end of this past week, found the origin of the mistaken information that the book was out of print. The responses of so many of you to what turned out to be a temporary panic were enormously appreciated. Thank you all for your suggestions for alternative texts. With the start of our term this next week, Evergreen will go ahead and use Nachalo this year. Most sincerely, Patricia Krafcik The Evergreen State College Olympia, Washington ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Mon Sep 27 07:04:56 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 03:04:56 -0400 Subject: Tsar'-devitsa again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Resending because I didn't notice Boris Dralyuk was diverting replies to his personal mailbox. Boris Dralyuk wrote: > I think Alexandra is quite right about the implication of challenge, > but I don't see why you ought to jettison "honour". Why not simply > orient the phrase toward the future: "What a great honour it would > be?" That seems to handle the challenge. Also, I read the "Chto" in > Tarkovsky's lovely poem a bit differently; the construction there > seems to mean "What does X matter to me, when...?" In the fairytale, > the "Что...?" is closer to "Какая...?" -- in other words, it's "Что > (за)...?" > > What one can do with a few words! "Challenge" is a word especially difficult to translate into Russian -- not really вызов, not really задача.... At any rate, Boris's understanding of the word must be very different from mine if he thinks "What a great honor it would be" conveys the slightest element of "challenge." And since I have the floor for a moment, Russian morality (then or now, I'm not sure) must be very different from mine if it considers sex with a sleeping woman "honorable." What am I missing here? We would call it "rape" and send the guy to jail. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Mon Sep 27 08:18:53 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 09:18:53 +0100 Subject: Tsar'-devitsa again In-Reply-To: <4CA04218.7010909@pbg-translations.com> Message-ID: Dear Paul, and all, Pual Gallagher writes, > Russian morality (then or now, > I'm not sure) must be very different from mine if it considers sex with > a sleeping woman "honorable." What am I missing here? We would call it > "rape" and send the guy to jail. I would have thought it went without saying that Russian morality as reflected in narodnye skazki is hugely different from your own - probably more different than any of us can imagine. All the best, R. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From k2kingdom at GMAIL.COM Mon Sep 27 08:58:00 2010 From: k2kingdom at GMAIL.COM (Mark Kingdom) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 11:58:00 +0300 Subject: A Tour of the Hermitage - Genetive or po + Dative? Message-ID: Hi All, I'm trying to say: I'm interested in a tour of the Hermitage. I did some searching online. It seems the 2nd version is preferable, even though my first guess would have been the top one. Thanks in advance for suggestions! Меня интересует тур Эрмитажа Меня интересует тур по Эрмитажу. Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM Mon Sep 27 09:14:48 2010 From: paulbg at PBG-TRANSLATIONS.COM (Paul B. Gallagher) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 05:14:48 -0400 Subject: Tsar'-devitsa again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Robert Chandler wrote: > Dear Paul, and all, > > Paul Gallagher writes, > >> Russian morality (then or now, I'm not sure) must be very different >> from mine if it considers sex with a sleeping woman "honorable." >> What am I missing here? We would call it "rape" and send the guy to >> jail. >> > I would have thought it went without saying that Russian morality as > reflected in narodnye skazki is hugely different from your own - > probably more different than any of us can imagine. Well, perhaps I'm naïve. Sure, I'm accustomed to folk tales having fantastic and magical elements such as animals capable of speech and reason, or kisses that transform frogs into princes, but there's still a heavy dose of verisimilitude -- murder is still wrong, and theft is still wrong, and so forth, unless certain exceptions apply. I also realize that women have not always been held in such high esteem as they are today, but even in settings where abuses are permitted I haven't often seen those abuses characterized as great honors or feats of gallantry. The characters usually know they're getting away with something illicit, and sometimes have to pay the price for it. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher pbg translations, inc. "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" http://pbg-translations.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wfr at SAS.AC.UK Mon Sep 27 09:30:12 2010 From: wfr at SAS.AC.UK (William Ryan) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 10:30:12 +0100 Subject: Tsar'-devitsa again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Robert, I certainly agree about different perceptions of sexual morality - in some cultures abduction and sex, consensual or otherwise, is the necessary prelude to marriage. However, it might also be possible read the passage in question as the rather more cynical : Chto mne nechest' (i.e. ne+chest' is one word = approx. "what's shame got to do with it?"). The line following indicates that the tone of the tale is quite robust - "watering at the well" is a fairly common euphemism in Russian love charms, male and female, in fact it is more of an explicit metaphor - and it doesn't mean rape. I shall be interested to see which colourful English expression you will use to translate it, and whether it will sound equally appropriate to English and non-English ears! Will On 27/09/2010 09:18, Robert Chandler wrote: > Dear Paul, and all, > > Pual Gallagher writes, >> Russian morality (then or now, >> I'm not sure) must be very different from mine if it considers sex with >> a sleeping woman "honorable." What am I missing here? We would call it >> "rape" and send the guy to jail. > I would have thought it went without saying that Russian morality as > reflected in narodnye skazki is hugely different from your own - probably > more different than any of us can imagine. > > All the best, > > R. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK Mon Sep 27 09:44:45 2010 From: Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK (Alexandra Smith) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 10:44:45 +0100 Subject: Tsar'-devitsa again/chem mne ne chest' In-Reply-To: <4CA06088.9090709@pbg-translations.com> Message-ID: Dear Robert, I think that Paul has a point: to translate the word "chest'" in this context as "a (special) honour" is not quite right. The word chest' has many connotations in Russian, including one archaic expression that presents the idiomatic expression "pole chesti" as "pole brani" (battlefield). In Dal's dictionary there are numerous examples of the usage of the word "chest'" in the contexts that relate to gifts: "Князя чествовали встречною хлебом-солью. | Угощать, потчивать, подносить, принимать за хлебом-солью. Не чести меня пивом, медом, почести (почти) меня зеленым вином. А чем вас чествовали у кума В сем знач. говор. и честовать, сев. и честовать, южн. зап.; чествуют и приносом, подарком. Было бы чем честить (потчивать), а честь добудем.". Since the situation described in the story relates to Tsarevich's lust, I also feel that the word "honour" is not right in this context. Perhaps, there is a possibility to render the expression "(chem) /chto mne ne chest'" as something that relates to Tsarevich's good fortune/gift of fate. He must have felt that he was lucky to come across a very beautiful girl. As I've mentioned earlier, I do feel that there is a sense of challenge in this situation but I think that the usage of the word "chest'" that relates to gifts cannot be dismissed either. Perhaps, it would be even more straightforward to say that Tsarevich felt that he was very lucky/fortunate. All best, Sasha Smith ------------------------------------------- Alexandra Smith (PhD, University of London) Reader in Russian Studies Department of European Languages and Cultures School of Languages, Literatures and Cultures The University of Edinburgh David Hume Tower George Square Edinburgh EH8 9JX UK tel. +44-(0)131-6511381 fax: +44- (0)131 -651 -1482 e-mail: Alexandra.Smith at ed.ac.uk Quoting "Paul B. Gallagher" : > Robert Chandler wrote: > >> Dear Paul, and all, >> >> Paul Gallagher writes, >> >>> Russian morality (then or now, I'm not sure) must be very different >>> from mine if it considers sex with a sleeping woman "honorable." >>> What am I missing here? We would call it "rape" and send the guy to >>> jail. >>> >> I would have thought it went without saying that Russian morality as >> reflected in narodnye skazki is hugely different from your own - >> probably more different than any of us can imagine. > > Well, perhaps I'm naïve. > > Sure, I'm accustomed to folk tales having fantastic and magical > elements such as animals capable of speech and reason, or kisses that > transform frogs into princes, but there's still a heavy dose of > verisimilitude -- murder is still wrong, and theft is still wrong, and > so forth, unless certain exceptions apply. I also realize that women > have not always been held in such high esteem as they are today, but > even in settings where abuses are permitted I haven't often seen those > abuses characterized as great honors or feats of gallantry. The > characters usually know they're getting away with something illicit, > and sometimes have to pay the price for it. > > -- > War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. > -- > Paul B. Gallagher > pbg translations, inc. > "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals" > http://pbg-translations.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Mon Sep 27 10:18:03 2010 From: j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 11:18:03 +0100 Subject: heteronormativity / diversity in foreign language pedagogy In-Reply-To: <1906462A-EADB-4554-A053-294925E0BFE5@middlebury.edu> Message-ID: I would suggest that one answer to the second question posed here might be 'very carefully indeed'. It is one thing for students to be aware of the sort of terminology discussed here, but if they are going to try to use it themselves, then there is a general and a specific consideration that they might want to take into account. The first consideration is that the linguistic norms and expectations that apply to foreigners are not necessarily the same as those that apply to native speakers: the former are expected to adhere to a conservative version of the language, and it would be imprudent for learners of a language (unless they have reached a very advanced level indeed) to assume that they have unlimited rights of access to all areas of the language concerned. The second consideration follows from the first: as the terminology used (in-group language, pejorative terms) indicates, this type of language generally implies a particular relationship to the group in question! ; this relationship may be one of association or dissociation or it may be something altogether more subtle or complex (cf. the use of the term 'queer' in Kevin Moss's original e-mail). That it is extremely difficult for learners to have an adequate awareness of all the implications and connotations of the terminology they may be studying is perhaps a point that most would accept, but I would go further and suggest that use of this terminology lmplies ownership of the system of which it forms part and that this ownership is available only to native and, perhaps, near-native speakers. Consequently, it may be the case that it is never appropriate for learners, who by definition stand outside the system, to use slang of this sort in a way that is acceptable to native speakers, regardless of whether these are inside or outside the specific community to which the slang refers. I suspect that these considerations apply to a greater or lesser extent to all languages, but they ! may have a greater significance for Russian, where the divide between Russian and foreigner is perhaps sharper than it is for some other languages or communities. But others are welcome to disagree. John Dunn. ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Kevin Moss [moss at MIDDLEBURY.EDU] Sent: 24 September 2010 18:43 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] heteronormativity / diversity in foreign language pedagogy My colleagues at Middlebury have begun addressing issues of heteronormativity in language pedagogy both at Middlebury and the schools abroad. If Seelangers out there have any thoughts on this, I'd love to hear them. We're now expanding the discussion to include other kinds of diversity as well (race, class, disability, where appropriate). Here were our original questions and the feedback from the first meeting: Some topics we should address: 1. How to make space in dialogues / roleplay for non-normative gender and sexuality, family structures, romance. 2. How can we teach terms / concepts in the target language for sexual identity: slang, in-group language, pejorative terms. 3. Textbooks: which textbooks actually allow this to happen and how can we supplement those that don't? 4. Cultural context in the target country(ies), including what not to say. What is the legal and social status of queers? <......> Kevin Moss ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Mon Sep 27 11:43:53 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 07:43:53 -0400 Subject: Tsar'-devitsa again In-Reply-To: <4CA06424.30202@sas.ac.uk> Message-ID: Wow, Will! You seem right: Chto mne can also mean "what do I care about..."! So, then "chto mne ne chest'?" means "chto mne beschest'e", meaning, "what do I care about the dishonour [the whole thing will entail]?" As for the watering at the well, some of the meaning may come from the Bible: when Jakob falls in love with Rachel at the well, etc. But it takes him a while to "water" at that well. In fact, this postponement (not of sex per se but of the marriage) may come, in the fairytale, from the bible story in Genesis! Robert, perhaps using a Biblical locution as a euphemism in translation sounds scandalous, but Biblical allusions often are--certainly not Victorian! As Pushkin used to say, about Russian, iazyku nashemu ne xvataet nekotoroj biblejskoj poxabnosti. Perhaps ditto about English, esp. when dealing with folklore? Thanks, Will! o.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Mon Sep 27 11:58:16 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 07:58:16 -0400 Subject: The crass style of folklore: correction In-Reply-To: <20100927074353.AGA43954@mstore-prod-2.pdc.uis.georgetown.edu> Message-ID: Oops! I messes up with the Pushkin quote. In fact, he says that Russian has some Biblical crassness but that usually, it gets bowdlerized, and perhaps shouldn't: Пушкин: «Я желал бы оставить русскому языку некоторую библейскую похабность. Я не люблю видеть в первобытном нашем языке следы европейского жеманства и французской утончённости. Грубость и простота более ему пристали». This quote is often used by the proponents of foul language in Russia. The only thing they don't notice is the strange and seemingly incongruous epithet "Biblical". What Pushkin means is that, in the Bible, what "foul" words refer to is in fact sex etc., rather than that they are used as common swearwords. Some--such as watering a horse at a woman's well--are not foul at all but quite the contrary: they are euphemisms, albeit transparent. What Pushkin probably means is the same as Batiushkov does elsewhere (on the influence of light poetry on language): erotic themes seem to promote the development of metaphorical language, and therefore, are very conducive to developing a national poetic. In any case, thanks to Robert's stumbling over a real stumbling block, fruitful as always, we all have found out about a potential that has once fascinated Pushkin, and that he put to great use in his own poetics! o.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Mon Sep 27 12:20:30 2010 From: j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 13:20:30 +0100 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Members of this list, and especially those based in the United States, may be interested in this article (not to mention the accompanying comments): http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-today-tomorrow--the-world-2083869.html John Dunn. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From russell-valentino at UIOWA.EDU Mon Sep 27 13:26:40 2010 From: russell-valentino at UIOWA.EDU (Valentino, Russell) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 08:26:40 -0500 Subject: Director search Message-ID: Director World Languages, Literatures and Cultures The University of Iowa - College of Liberal Arts and Sciences The University of Iowa College of Liberal Arts & Sciences (CLAS) invites applications for a Director of the newly formed Division of World Languages, Literatures, and Cultures. The Director will articulate and sustain a vision for this new collaborative structure, which at present includes the departments of Asian & Slavic Languages & Literatures, French & Italian, German, Spanish & Portuguese, the American Sign Language program, and the Language Media Center. The Director will exercise academic leadership within the Division, and will foster interdisciplinary and cross-cultural initiatives. The Director will contribute to the teaching mission of the Division and will report directly to the Dean of CLAS. Candidates must be teachers/scholars with strong international reputations and with successful records in administration of complex units at the departmental level or beyond. Candidates must have the PhD in a relevant discipline and academic credentials that meet the criteria for appointment at the rank of professor with tenure in CLAS. Applications must be submitted online at http://jobs.uiowa.edu/content/faculty (enter requisition #57960). Applications should include a cover letter, CV, and contact information for three references. Review of applications will begin November 1, 2010, and will continue until the position is filled. The tentative starting date is August 2011. The Division and the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences are strongly committed to gender and ethnic diversity; the strategic plans of the University and College reflect this commitment. Women and minorities are especially encouraged to apply. The University of Iowa is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action employer. For further details about the position, contact the Search Chair, Professor Steve Duck, Administrative Fellow, College of Liberal Arts and Sciences Dean's Office, The University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA 52242-1409 e-mail clas-wllc-director at uiowa.edu or steve-duck at uiowa.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bowrudder at GMAIL.COM Mon Sep 27 13:49:21 2010 From: bowrudder at GMAIL.COM (Charles Mills) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 06:49:21 -0700 Subject: Tsar'-devitsa again In-Reply-To: <20100927074353.AGA43954@mstore-prod-2.pdc.uis.georgetown.edu> Message-ID: Proverbs 5:15 comes to mind. Drink waters out of thine own cistern, and running waters out of thine own well. Пей воду из твоего водоема и текущую из твоего колодезя. The rest of Proverbs chapter 5 makes the context clear. CM On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 4:43 AM, Olga Meerson wrote: > As for the watering at the well, some of the meaning may come from the > Bible: when Jakob falls in love with Rachel at the well, etc. But it takes > him a while to "water" at that well. In fact, this postponement (not of sex > per se but of the marriage) may come, in the fairytale, from the bible story > in Genesis! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ingsoc at earthlink.net Mon Sep 27 14:52:03 2010 From: ingsoc at earthlink.net (Boris Dralyuk) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 07:52:03 -0700 Subject: The crass style of folklore: correction Message-ID: Like Olga, I think Will has a great point! Cf. the usage of "не честь мне" in Leskov's "Kotin doilets i Platonida": "Вдова быстро встала с постели, спешной рукой затворила за улетевшею бабочкой открытую раму и молвила: «Грех мне! не честь мне; не след мне валять по полу его подушки! » С этими словами она подняла подушки с полу и положила их на пустую лежанку. В эту минуту ей послышалось, что у нее за дверью кто-то вздохнул. Платонида схватила еще торопливее те же самые подушки и, положив их на диван под святые, быстро отошла от них прочь и стала у своей кровати." There, in a skazochnyi context, the word and particple also seem to be read as a single word. --- Also, for the third question: >Ivan's elder brother robs him of his various trophies. Ivan returns to his >city incognito and on foot. But I don't understand the very last words in >this paragraph. What does на ряду mean here? >Идет Иван-царевич пешком в свой град. И зайди по питейным домам, с >удальцами на ряду. I'd like to posit "на ряду" -- which literally means "in a line" -- suggests that, dismounted from his horse and travelling incognito, Ivan is, to all appearnces, "just one of the boys." He stands shoulder to shoulder with the rough-and-tumble commoners. For what it's worth, Boris P.S. I really hadn't meant to divert anything to my mailbox! I haven't touched any account settings. As I said, I'm completely inexperienced, and I hope I haven't done anything screwy... It seems that most messages have gone through to the entire list, no? At any rate, Paul, I'm very sorry if I've made any trouble for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Ben.Dhooge at UGENT.BE Mon Sep 27 15:20:01 2010 From: Ben.Dhooge at UGENT.BE (Ben Dhooge) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 17:20:01 +0200 Subject: 2nd CPP: "Platonov revisited. Past and present views on the land of the philosophers" (Ghent University, May 26-27, 2011) Message-ID: CFP: “Platonov revisited. Past and present views on the land of the philosophers” (Ghent University, May 26-27, 2011) The Department of Slavonic and East European Studies at Ghent University (Belgium) is pleased to announce the international conference “Platonov revisited. Past and present views on the land of the philosophers”. The conference will be held at Ghent University (Ghent, Belgium) on Thursday, May 26 and Friday, May 27, 2011 Keynote speakers: Philip Bullock (University of Oxford, Oxford) Hans Günther (Universität Bielefeld, Bielefeld) Natal’ya V. Kornienko (Institute for World Literature, Moscow) Thomas Seifrid (University of Southern California, Los Angeles) Yevgeny A. Yablokov (Moscow) Abstracts are invited for presentations addressing the changes in the perception of Platonov and his works over the last twenty-thirty years. While in Europe and the United States Platonov’s Chevengur and Kotlovan found their way to the public as early as in the 1960s and the 1970s, in Russia these masterpieces were published only in the perestroika era. Of course, Platonov’s works had already been known before, but often in an incomplete form. The publication of the novel and the novella – with the post scriptum of the author! – and the subsequent edition of other unknown and forbidden works in enormous print numbers stimulated not only the interest of the reading public, but also gave a strong impulse to the existing scholarly study of Platonov’s work, both in Russia and abroad. Soon letters, notes and unknown literary works of the writer-engineer, reactions on the campaign against Vprok, reports of the writer’s appearances at the Writers’ Union and much more were brought into the open. These newly available materials, the new possibility to write about literature outside of (the previously almost obligatory) ideological presumptions, the fruitful contacts between Russian and non-Russian scholars, the publication of translations of parts of Platonov’s oeuvre all contributed to the successful development of Platonov studies and transformed it into the fully fledged scholarship it is today. Now, more than twenty years later – and even more than thirty years after the appearance of the first studies on Platonov – it is a good moment to stand still and to have a look at the past and the present (and maybe even the future) of Platonov studies. It is the aim of the conference to reflect on the changes in the perception of Platonov and his works over the last twenty-thirty years in Russia and abroad. The aim of the conference is not to disclose the newest discovery or analysis regarding Platonov, but to reflect on the changes in the readers’ reception and the scholarly study of Platonov’s oeuvre. The following questions take a central place: 1. have our views on Platonov (the man, the engineer, the writer, the thinker) and his oeuvre changed since the first publications in Russia and the West and the subsequent startup of Platonov scholarship?; 2. what effect has the publication of archive materials of the Stalin-era had on the study of Platonov’s works?; 3. to what extent was and is the reception of Platonov’s work or aspects of his work (mythopoetics, philosophy, metaphysics, ) influenced by the ideological context of the reader / scholar?; 4. has the dominance of politicized readings of Platonov’s oeuvre come to an end or has the opposition between anticommunist and procommunist readings been followed by other ideologically inspired readings?; 5. why should we read Platonov now? During the perestroika era and in the first years after the collapse of the Soviet-Union one would read Platonov to retrieve the exceptional legacy of a brilliant but repressed writer, but what is the reason for reading him now?; 6. is it possible to read Platonov outside of his (more and more historically distant) socio-political context?; 7. how has the redefinition of the canon of 20th-century literature in general and Soviet literature, in particular, affected our understanding of Platonov?; 8. is the study of Platonov affected by revised concepts and terms and new scholarly paradigms (cf. modernism vs. avant-garde)?; 9. what will the latest landmark in Platonov scholarship – the acquisition of Platonov’s personal archive by the Institute for World literature – mean for the current Platonov scholarship, and will – and if so, to what extent – the disclosure of Platonov’s personal archive force scholars to reevaluate the scholarly work written the past 40 years?; 10. what have been the effects of the publication of new works of the writer and the “depoliticization” on the reception of Platonov’s works and how have these elements affected translations, readers’ responses to the oeuvre and its translation, reviews, discussions in the media, adaptations of the oeuvre to other media, the popularity of Platonov’s works, the status of Platonov’s work in the Russian canon and in the canon of world literature? We welcome contributions from a variety of methodological approaches and on any topic relating to this problem. Please submit an abstract (in English or in Russian, maximum 500 words) to Thomas.Langerak at UGent.be or Ben.Dhooge at UGent.be. Please add your name, departmental affiliation, email address and the title of your proposed paper. The deadline for proposals is November 1, 2010. Abstracts will be peer-reviewed. Notification of acceptance of proposals will be provided by January, 2011. All abstracts will be made available prior to the conference through the conference website. Presentations should be in English or Russian. Each presentation will be allowed 20 minutes, followed by a 10-minute open discussion. An edited volume with a selection of papers is planned. Information on registration, transportation, accommodations, and the conference venue will be forthcoming. Please forward this call for papers to your colleagues and graduate students who may be interested in presenting or attending. Sincerely, Thomas Langerak (Ghent University) Ben Dhooge (Ghent University) Department of Slavonic and East European Studies Ghent University Rozier 44 9000 Gent Belgium For details or questions, please contact the members of the Organizing Committee: Thomas Langerak (Thomas.Langerak at UGent.be) or Ben Dhooge (Ben.Dhooge at UGent.be). ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Mon Sep 27 19:33:12 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 20:33:12 +0100 Subject: Tsar'-devitsa - =?windows-1251?Q?=CD=E5__=F7=E5=F1=F2=FC=96=F5=E2=E0=EB=E0?= In-Reply-To: <1302604670504B949138D13B776676F8@boris969f37a20> Message-ID: In tentative disagreement with Will and this recent message by Boris, I want to repeat something I wrote a day or two ago: 'That честь is indeed a noun here is (at least partially) confirmed by a later occurrence in this story of the phrase "Не честь–хвала да молдецкая!" ' This seems to have passed by unnoticed, but that is my fault for not providing more context. Here it is with a few more lines: "Не честь–хвала да молодецкая! - в дорожку был справивши не в вестимую, получил своего батюшка вси прихоти, и - буде поискать свого родного братца, Дмитрия-царевича!" The speaker is the same Ivan Tsarevich, so it seems to me likely that this is essentially the same construction as before. R. > Like Olga, I think Will has a great point! Cf. the usage of "не честь мне" in > Leskov's "Kotin doilets i Platonida": > > "Вдова быстро встала с постели, спешной рукой затворила за улетевшею бабочкой > открытую раму и молвила: «Грех мне! не честь мне; не след мне валять по полу > его подушки! » С этими словами она подняла подушки с полу и положила их на > пустую лежанку. В эту минуту ей послышалось, что у нее за дверью кто-то > вздохнул. Платонида схватила еще торопливее те же самые подушки и, положив их > на диван под святые, быстро отошла от них прочь и стала у своей кровати." > > There, in a skazochnyi context, the word and particple also seem to be read as > a single word. > > --- > > Also, for the third question: > >> Ivan's elder brother robs him of his various trophies. Ivan returns to his >> city incognito and on foot. But I don't understand the very last words in >> this paragraph. What does на ряду mean here? >> Идет Иван-царевич пешком в свой град. И зайди по питейным домам, с >> удальцами на ряду. > > I'd like to posit "на ряду" -- which literally means "in a line" -- suggests > that, dismounted from his horse and travelling incognito, Ivan is, to all > appearnces, "just one of the boys." He stands shoulder to shoulder with the > rough-and-tumble commoners. > > For what it's worth, > Boris > > P.S. I really hadn't meant to divert anything to my mailbox! I haven't > touched any account settings. As I said, I'm completely inexperienced, and I > hope I haven't done anything screwy... It seems that most messages have gone > through to the entire list, no? At any rate, Paul, I'm very sorry if I've > made any trouble for you. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Mon Sep 27 20:21:57 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:21:57 -0400 Subject: Tsar'-devitsa - =?utf-8?Q?=D0=9D=D0=B5__=D1=87=D0=B5=D1=81=D1=82=D1=8C=E2=80=93=D1=85=D0?= =?utf-8?Q?=B2=D0=B0=D0=BB=D0=B0?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Robertjan, Re: "Не честь–хвала да молодецкая! - в дорожку был справивши не в вестимую, получил своего батюшка вси прихоти, и - буде поискать свого родного братца, Дмитрия-царевича!" What is the PREVIOUS context for the expression? Negations (e.g., as listed similes) may have a non-negated effect in Russian folklore (e.g.. ьл не ветер ветку клонит, не дубравушка шумит--то мое сердечко стонет, как осенний лист дрожит), and in fact, the same semantic shade WOULD be present in the "CHEM mne ne chest'?", as a rhetorical question. But NOT IN ALL contexts--certainly, not in chto mne beschest'e?! Negations, even if a given sequence of words containing them is the exact same, may mean very different thongs depending on the context OF that syntax--what surrounds it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jhl9t at VIRGINIA.EDU Mon Sep 27 20:17:02 2010 From: jhl9t at VIRGINIA.EDU (John Lyles) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:17:02 -0400 Subject: 20th Century Russian Works about the Caucasus Message-ID: Dear All, Does anyone know of any works of Russian literature from the 20th century that take place in the Caucasus or deal with Russia's presence there? Or any works in which Caucasians play a prominent role? I can only think of Tolstoy's *Hadji Murat* and Iskander's stories, including *Sandro from Chegem*. I am particularly curious to see how Soviet writers treat the Caucasus and its place in Russian history. Thank you in advance for your help. John Lyles University of Virginia ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Mon Sep 27 20:28:13 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 21:28:13 +0100 Subject: 20th Century Russian Works about the Caucasus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Don't forget "The Cossacks" - or is that too early for what you were looking for? ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ On 27 September 2010 21:17, John Lyles wrote: > Dear All, > > Does anyone know of any works of Russian literature from the 20th century > that take place in the Caucasus or deal with Russia's presence there? Or > any works in which Caucasians play a prominent role? I can only think of > Tolstoy's *Hadji Murat* and Iskander's stories, including *Sandro from > Chegem*. I am particularly curious to see how Soviet writers treat the > Caucasus and its place in Russian history. Thank you in advance for your > help. > > John Lyles > University of Virginia > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Mon Sep 27 20:30:35 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 21:30:35 +0100 Subject: FW: [SEELANGS] Tsar'-devitsa - =?windows-1251?Q?=CD=E5_=F7=E5=F1=F2=FC=96=F5=E2=E0=EB=E0?= In-Reply-To: <20100927162157.AGA79261@mstore-prod-2.pdc.uis.georgetown.edu> Message-ID: Olgajan, Here is what I wrote originally: Ivan Tsarevich is overwhelmed by the beauty of the sleeping Marya-Krasa, Dolga Kosa. And so “Что мне не честь!” разгорелось у молодца ретивое сердце. And then he waters his horse at her well. * I NOW understand this as "Is not this an honour for me?" And it IS an honour for him. She is someone very special (a niece of Baba Yaga!!), and at the end of the story he will marry her and live with her in the podsolnechnoe tsarstvo. Rx ------ Forwarded Message From: Olga Meerson Reply-To: seelangs Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:21:57 -0400 To: seelangs Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Tsar'-devitsa - Не честь–хвала Robertjan, Re: "Не честь–хвала да молодецкая! - в дорожку был справивши не в вестимую, получил своего батюшка вси прихоти, и - буде поискать свого родного братца, Дмитрия-царевича!" What is the PREVIOUS context for the expression? Negations (e.g., as listed similes) may have a non-negated effect in Russian folklore (e.g.. ьл не ветер ветку клонит, не дубравушка шумит--то мое сердечко стонет, как осенний лист дрожит), and in fact, the same semantic shade WOULD be present in the "CHEM mne ne chest'?", as a rhetorical question. But NOT IN ALL contexts--certainly, not in chto mne beschest'e?! Negations, even if a given sequence of words containing them is the exact same, may mean very different thongs depending on the context OF that syntax--what surrounds it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ End of Forwarded Message ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dwyera at GMAIL.COM Mon Sep 27 20:42:13 2010 From: dwyera at GMAIL.COM (Anne Dwyer) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 13:42:13 -0700 Subject: 20th Century Russian Works about the Caucasus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear John, Translated works: Pristavkin, The Inseparable Twins; Makanin's Captive of the Caucasus. Also numerous films from late 20th and early 21st century. Charskaia also has some early century popular pieces, but I don't think they've been translated. (Susan Larsen has an article on them.) Best, Anne Anne Dwyer Assistant Professor of German and Russian Pomona College On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Stephanie Briggs wrote: > Don't forget "The Cossacks" - or is that too early for what you were > looking > for? > ***************************** > ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs > http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ > > Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! > THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! > http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ > > > > > On 27 September 2010 21:17, John Lyles wrote: > > > Dear All, > > > > Does anyone know of any works of Russian literature from the 20th century > > that take place in the Caucasus or deal with Russia's presence there? Or > > any works in which Caucasians play a prominent role? I can only think of > > Tolstoy's *Hadji Murat* and Iskander's stories, including *Sandro from > > Chegem*. I am particularly curious to see how Soviet writers treat the > > Caucasus and its place in Russian history. Thank you in advance for your > > help. > > > > John Lyles > > University of Virginia > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From emilka at MAC.COM Mon Sep 27 20:47:12 2010 From: emilka at MAC.COM (Emily Saunders) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 13:47:12 -0700 Subject: 20th Century Russian Works about the Caucasus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not fitting the bill in terms of Soviet Writers, but perhaps fitting the bill in terms of time frame: British author (and adventurer/diplomat) Fitzroy Maclean's 20th century travelogue "To Caucasus, the End of the Earth" makes interesting reading for its time (the 60's, I think). Also "Home, and Home Again" by emigre Georgian writers George and Helen Papashvily -- a combination childhood memoir and an account of their return to visit family during Soviet times. Emily On Sep 27, 2010, at 1:17 PM, John Lyles wrote: > Dear All, > > Does anyone know of any works of Russian literature from the 20th > century > that take place in the Caucasus or deal with Russia's presence > there? Or > any works in which Caucasians play a prominent role? I can only > think of > Tolstoy's *Hadji Murat* and Iskander's stories, including *Sandro from > Chegem*. I am particularly curious to see how Soviet writers treat > the > Caucasus and its place in Russian history. Thank you in advance for > your > help. > > John Lyles > University of Virginia > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ingsoc at earthlink.net Mon Sep 27 20:56:04 2010 From: ingsoc at earthlink.net (Boris Dralyuk) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 13:56:04 -0700 Subject: FW: [SEELANGS] Tsar'-devitsa - =?UTF-8?Q?=D0=9D=D0=B5_=D1=87=D0=B5=D1=81=D1=82=D1=8C=E2=80=93=D1=85=D0?= =?UTF-8?Q?=B2=D0=B0=D0=BB=D0=B0?= Message-ID: Dear Robert and all, I don't know whether the following goes without saying, but I know with some certainty that "Не честь–хвала да молодецкая!" is a fixed epithet reflecting a bogatyr's shame in many bylinas. Pace this from "Илья Муромец в ссоре с князем Владимиром": «А не честь-хвала да молодецкая Сидеть русскому могучему богатырю С голью кабацкою, с нищетой бедняцкою, [...]» So here, "не честь-хвала" is unambiguously a negation - our hero is "бесчестный" and "непохвальный", keeping such company. The scene also recalls your fairytale's Ivan-Tsarevich, incognito "с удальцами на ряду." I hope that helps a bit! Yours, Boris -----Original Message----- >From: Robert Chandler >Sent: Sep 27, 2010 1:30 PM >To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >Subject: [SEELANGS] FW: [SEELANGS] Tsar'-devitsa - Не честь–хвала > >Olgajan, > >Here is what I wrote originally: > >Ivan Tsarevich is overwhelmed by the beauty of the sleeping Marya-Krasa, >Dolga Kosa. And so >“Что мне не честь!” разгорелось у молодца ретивое сердце. > >And then he waters his horse at her well. > > * > >I NOW understand this as "Is not this an honour for me?" And it IS an >honour for him. She is someone very special (a niece of Baba Yaga!!), and >at the end of the story he will marry her and live with her in the >podsolnechnoe tsarstvo. > >Rx > > >------ Forwarded Message >From: Olga Meerson >Reply-To: seelangs >Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:21:57 -0400 >To: seelangs >Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Tsar'-devitsa - Не честь–хвала > >Robertjan, Re: >"Не честь–хвала да молодецкая! - в дорожку был справивши не в вестимую, >получил своего батюшка вси прихоти, и - буде поискать свого родного братца, >Дмитрия-царевича!" > >What is the PREVIOUS context for the expression? Negations (e.g., as listed >similes) may have a non-negated effect in Russian folklore (e.g.. ьл не >ветер ветку клонит, не дубравушка шумит--то мое сердечко стонет, как осенний >лист дрожит), and in fact, the same semantic shade WOULD be present in the >"CHEM mne ne chest'?", as a rhetorical question. But NOT IN ALL >contexts--certainly, not in chto mne beschest'e?! Negations, even if a given >sequence of words containing them is the exact same, may mean very different >thongs depending on the context OF that syntax--what surrounds it. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >------ End of Forwarded Message > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mbalina at IWU.EDU Mon Sep 27 21:46:11 2010 From: mbalina at IWU.EDU (Professor Marina Balina) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:46:11 -0500 Subject: Help needed! Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, A student of mine who is double majoring in Spanish and Russian and Eastern European Studies will be studying in Spain for a semester. She is looking for an opportunity to continue with her Russian via private tutoring, language exchange, or formal instruction that she might audit. She will be in Barcelona. If any of you know a colleague in Russian in one of Barcelona's many institutions of higher education and could give me information about how to reach this colleague, I will be very grateful. Sincerely, Marina Balina --------------------------------------- Dr. Marina Balina Isaac Funk Professor of Russian Studies Illinois Wesleyan University P.O. Box 2900 Bloomington, IL 61702 Ph: (309) 556-3082 Fx: (309) 556-3284 Email: mbalina at iwu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hadjiabrek at YAHOO.COM Mon Sep 27 22:33:52 2010 From: hadjiabrek at YAHOO.COM (John Hope) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:33:52 -0700 Subject: 20th Century Russian Works about the Caucasus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear John, A partial list of 20th-century works on the Caucasian theme would include Anatolii Pristavkin's "Nochevala tuchka zolotaia" (1987), Vladimir Makanin's "Kavkazskii plennyi" (1999, if my memory serves), a fairly large body of pulp dealing with the last two Chechen wars, Boris Akunin's "Smert' Akhillesa" (1998; at least partially relevant), and at least one story by Viktor Pelevin ("Papakhi na bashniakh"). If you expand into film you'll find Gaidai's "Kavkazskaia plennitsa," Bodrov Sr.'s "Kavkazskii plennik," Nevzorov's "Chistilishche," Konchalovskii's "Dom durakov," Rogozhkin's "Blokpost," Balabanov's "Voina," Mikhalkov's "12," and Sokurov's "Aleksandra," among others. Pretty much all of these have been translated / subtitled, with the exception of the pulp fiction and the Pelevin story. There are also a number of books and articles on the subject. --- On Mon, 9/27/10, John Lyles wrote: > From: John Lyles > Subject: [SEELANGS] 20th Century Russian Works about the Caucasus > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Date: Monday, September 27, 2010, 4:17 PM > Dear All, > > Does anyone know of any works of Russian literature from > the 20th century > that take place in the Caucasus or deal with Russia's > presence there?  Or > any works in which Caucasians play a prominent role?  > I can only think of > Tolstoy's *Hadji Murat* and Iskander's stories, including > *Sandro from > Chegem*.  I am particularly curious to see how Soviet > writers treat the > Caucasus and its place in Russian history.  Thank you > in advance for your > help. > > John Lyles > University of Virginia > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription >   options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the > SEELANGS Web Interface at: >                 >     http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From alex.rudd at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 22:36:33 2010 From: alex.rudd at gmail.com (Alex Rudd) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:36:33 -0700 Subject: International Winter Session 2011 at HSE (Moscow) Message-ID: >From time to time I post messages to this list from people who are not subscribers but who would like to advise SEELANGS list members of a new resource or opportunity. This is such a post. If you'd like to reply, please do so directly to the address indicated below, cie.hse at gmail.com. - Alex, list owner of SEELANGS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- National Research University - Higher School of Economics is glad to offer an International Winter Session. The Winter Session gives students a unique opportunity to immerse themselves in intensive studies at the Higher School of Economics - one of the biggest research universities in the CIS and Eastern Europe. The International Winter Session will take place January 4-21, 2011. HSE provides a choice of courses enabling students to earn academic credit and speed up the progress towards their degree or focus on the enhancement of a particular skill. Students are offered courses in: • Russian Studies, • Political Science, • International Relations, • Energy Policy, • Economics, • Mathematics, • Russian Language. This rich and engaging cultural program will allow students to fully experience the beauty of the Russian winter and to participate in great networking events together with other international students. It is a great opportunity to study Russia from the inside, with internationally renowned professors, and to make full use of abundant intercultural and tourist opportunities. More detailed information is available at the HSE website http://cie.hse.ru/index.php/programs/international-winter-session Application deadline for the Winter Session: November 17. HSE is the leading Russian university in the socio-economic sciences. It is a dynamic and progressive university. This year QS have included us in the top 500 world's best universities. We are currently the biggest socio-economics think-tank in Russia and Eastern Europe. Our 18,000 students study at our four campuses - in Moscow, St. Petersburg, Nizhniy Novgorod and Perm. Please address all your questions to cie.hse at gmail.com Yours sincerely, Sergei Krasko, Deputy Director Center for International Education State University Higher School of Economics (Russia) +7 (495) 772-95-90 ext. 2814 skrasko at gmail.com www.cie.hse.ru ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From brooksjef at GMAIL.COM Mon Sep 27 23:02:15 2010 From: brooksjef at GMAIL.COM (jeff brooks) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:02:15 -0400 Subject: 20th Century Russian Works about the Caucasus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear John, If I may. There was at least one wonderful kopeck novel set in the Caucasus, and I describe it in When Russia Learned to Read. It was serialized in Gazeta kopeika. Fun and fortune in Georgia. Russians go there as I recall, plant tobacco and of course there is a Georgian princess. All good cheer, Jeff Brooks On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 4:17 PM, John Lyles wrote: > Dear All, > > Does anyone know of any works of Russian literature from the 20th century > that take place in the Caucasus or deal with Russia's presence there? Or > any works in which Caucasians play a prominent role? I can only think of > Tolstoy's *Hadji Murat* and Iskander's stories, including *Sandro from > Chegem*. I am particularly curious to see how Soviet writers treat the > Caucasus and its place in Russian history. Thank you in advance for your > help. > > John Lyles > University of Virginia > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From moss at MIDDLEBURY.EDU Mon Sep 27 23:11:41 2010 From: moss at MIDDLEBURY.EDU (Kevin Moss) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:11:41 -0400 Subject: 20th Century Russian Works about the Caucasus In-Reply-To: <902238.63589.qm@web113611.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sep 27, 2010, at 6:33 PM, John Hope wrote: > Vladimir Makanin's "Kavkazskii plennyi" (1999, if my memory serves) Actually written in '94 and published in Novy mir in 1995 translated by Anatoly Vishevsky & Michael Biggins in Out of the Blue, 1997 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ingsoc at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Sep 28 03:03:19 2010 From: ingsoc at EARTHLINK.NET (Boris Dralyuk) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 20:03:19 -0700 Subject: FW: [SEELANGS] T sar'-devitsa - =?UTF-8?Q?=D0=9D=D0=B5_=D1=87=D0=B5=D1=81=D1=82=D1=8C=E2=80=93=D1=85=D0?= =?UTF-8?Q?=B2=D0=B0=D0=BB=D0=B0?= Message-ID: Egads, I meant "compare/cf" not "pace". As for Robert's second question: > "Какой-то дурак уж на кони кожу несет." > All three Yagas are basically saying that Ivan is struggling to keep his > exhausted horse on the go, that he is having to whip it and beat it. Am I > right in understanding the third Yaga to be saying that he is, in effect, > flaying his horse, whipping the skin off it? I think flaying is a very good explanation; you beat a "конь" long enough, "можно снести кожу." Here's something I found in Vsev. Fed. Miller's 'Digorskiia skazaniia' (1902), p. 107: "Он плетью так три раза ударил коня, что из его бока выпали три куска кожи (на подошву), а у него из руки три куска на оконечность плети: конь понёсся подобно ветру и дождевым тучам." A translation from Digorian, but... There's also the long shot that the "кожа" is Ivan's own - a metonym. In that case, Ivan may be tearing along on his steed, as if his hide depended on it. Unlikely, of course. At your service, Boris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Boris Dralyuk" To: Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 1:56 PM Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] FW: [SEELANGS] Tsar'-devitsa - Не честь–хвала > Dear Robert and all, > > I don't know whether the following goes without saying, but I know with > some certainty that "Не честь–хвала да молодецкая!" is a fixed epithet > reflecting a bogatyr's shame in many bylinas. Pace this from "Илья > Муромец в ссоре с князем Владимиром": > > «А не честь-хвала да молодецкая > Сидеть русскому могучему богатырю > С голью кабацкою, с нищетой бедняцкою, [...]» > > So here, "не честь-хвала" is unambiguously a negation - our hero is > "бесчестный" and "непохвальный", keeping such company. The scene also > recalls your fairytale's Ivan-Tsarevich, incognito "с удальцами на ряду." > > I hope that helps a bit! > > Yours, > Boris > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Robert Chandler >>Sent: Sep 27, 2010 1:30 PM >>To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >>Subject: [SEELANGS] FW: [SEELANGS] Tsar'-devitsa - Не честь–хвала >> >>Olgajan, >> >>Here is what I wrote originally: >> >>Ivan Tsarevich is overwhelmed by the beauty of the sleeping Marya-Krasa, >>Dolga Kosa. And so >>“Что мне не честь!” разгорелось у молодца ретивое сердце. >> >>And then he waters his horse at her well. >> >> * >> >>I NOW understand this as "Is not this an honour for me?" And it IS an >>honour for him. She is someone very special (a niece of Baba Yaga!!), and >>at the end of the story he will marry her and live with her in the >>podsolnechnoe tsarstvo. >> >>Rx >> >> >>------ Forwarded Message >>From: Olga Meerson >>Reply-To: seelangs >>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:21:57 -0400 >>To: seelangs >>Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Tsar'-devitsa - Не честь–хвала >> >>Robertjan, Re: >>"Не честь–хвала да молодецкая! - в дорожку был справивши не в вестимую, >>получил своего батюшка вси прихоти, и - буде поискать свого родного >>братца, >>Дмитрия-царевича!" >> >>What is the PREVIOUS context for the expression? Negations (e.g., as >>listed >>similes) may have a non-negated effect in Russian folklore (e.g.. ьл не >>ветер ветку клонит, не дубравушка шумит--то мое сердечко стонет, как >>осенний >>лист дрожит), and in fact, the same semantic shade WOULD be present in the >>"CHEM mne ne chest'?", as a rhetorical question. But NOT IN ALL >>contexts--certainly, not in chto mne beschest'e?! Negations, even if a >>given >>sequence of words containing them is the exact same, may mean very >>different >>thongs depending on the context OF that syntax--what surrounds it. >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >>------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>------ End of Forwarded Message >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >>------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3161 - Release Date: 09/26/10 11:40:00 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Tue Sep 28 05:54:06 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 06:54:06 +0100 Subject: 20th Century Russian Works about the Caucasus - SADULAEV In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all, I recommend a book that will be coming out in 2 months time, I AM A CHECHEN by German Sadulaev - beautifully translated by Anna Gunin. Here is what it says about this book on amazon.com "I Am a Chechen!" offers a lyrical fusion of exotic legends, stories and memories of Chechnya: a land of wondrous beauty, site of genocides past and present, and the author's ancestral home. Haunted by memories of the land he deserted, Sadulaev tells the stories of those who stayed behind. He brings to life his friends - now reduced to pieces of flesh - revisiting their first loves, their passion for rock music, their quests for martyrdom. And he immerses us in the intoxicating beauty of his homeland's mountains, blossoms and the flocks of migratory swallows that fill its skies. "I Am a Chechen!" is an intensely personal journey through the carnage of the war, exploring the pain, the challenge, and above all the meaning of being a Chechen. R. About the Author German Sadulaev was born in 1973 and grew up in the Chechen village of Shali. At sixteen, before the start of the first Chechen war, he left to study law in St Petersburg. He lives there now. He is the author of five books, of which I Am a Chechen! is the second. Sadulaev's work makes highly uncomfortable reading for those in power, and has unleashed heated debate in Russia; it has been shortlisted for the Russian Booker Prize, twice for the National Bestseller award, and has won the Eureka Prize. >> >> On 27 September 2010 21:17, John Lyles wrote: >> >>> Dear All, >>> >>> Does anyone know of any works of Russian literature from the 20th century >>> that take place in the Caucasus or deal with Russia's presence there? Or >>> any works in which Caucasians play a prominent role? I can only think of >>> Tolstoy's *Hadji Murat* and Iskander's stories, including *Sandro from >>> Chegem*. I am particularly curious to see how Soviet writers treat the >>> Caucasus and its place in Russian history. Thank you in advance for your >>> help. >>> >>> John Lyles >>> University of Virginia >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >>> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >>> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Tue Sep 28 11:07:12 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 07:07:12 -0400 Subject: 20th Century Russian Works about the Caucasus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Makanin's Asan and "Kavkazskij plennik" are both fascinating but definitely not Soviet. He is not really a post-Modernist writer either. Very worth reading, teaching, and examining and re-examining. esp. now. o.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Tue Sep 28 11:09:43 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 07:09:43 -0400 Subject: FW: [SEELANGS] Tsar'-devitsa - =?utf-8?Q?=D0=9D=D0=B5_=D1=87=D0=B5=D1=81=D1=82=D1=8C=E2=80=93=D1=85=D0?= =?utf-8?Q?=B2=D0=B0=D0=BB=D0=B0?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Robertjan, your (and my original) understanding is valid but so is Will's: what do I care about dishonour (or impropriety) [if she has captivated my heart]? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulr at RUSSIANLIFE.NET Tue Sep 28 12:09:19 2010 From: paulr at RUSSIANLIFE.NET (Paul Richardson) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 08:09:19 -0400 Subject: Caucasus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John: Issue #07 of our journal "Chtenia: Readings from Russia" had as its theme "To the Caucasus" and there are several good contemporary stories about Russia and the Caucasus. Here is link to the TofC: http://www.russianlife.com/chtenia/chteniaissue.cfm?Issue=2103108165 Paul R On Sep 28, 2010, at 1:00 AM, SEELANGS automatic digest system wrote: > Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:17:02 -0400 > From: John Lyles > Subject: 20th Century Russian Works about the Caucasus > > Dear All, > > Does anyone know of any works of Russian literature from the 20th century > that take place in the Caucasus or deal with Russia's presence there? Or > any works in which Caucasians play a prominent role? I can only think of > Tolstoy's *Hadji Murat* and Iskander's stories, including *Sandro from > Chegem*. I am particularly curious to see how Soviet writers treat the > Caucasus and its place in Russian history. Thank you in advance for your > help. > > John Lyles > University of Virginia ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From eclowes at KU.EDU Tue Sep 28 12:03:55 2010 From: eclowes at KU.EDU (Clowes, Edith W) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 07:03:55 -0500 Subject: 20th Century Russian Works about the Caucasus Message-ID: Dear John, See Margaret Ziolkowski's Alien vision: the Chechens and the Navajos in Russian and American literature. My new book, Russia on the Edge: Imagined Geographies and Post-Soviet Identity, due out March, 2011, has a chapter on the north Caucasus. Sincerely, Edith Edith W. Clowes, Professor, Department of Slavic Langs. and Lits. http://www2.ku.edu/~slavic/ Director, Center for Russian, E. European, and Eurasian Studies http://www.crees.ku.edu University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045 -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list on behalf of John Lyles Sent: Mon 9/27/2010 3:17 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] 20th Century Russian Works about the Caucasus Dear All, Does anyone know of any works of Russian literature from the 20th century that take place in the Caucasus or deal with Russia's presence there? Or any works in which Caucasians play a prominent role? I can only think of Tolstoy's *Hadji Murat* and Iskander's stories, including *Sandro from Chegem*. I am particularly curious to see how Soviet writers treat the Caucasus and its place in Russian history. Thank you in advance for your help. John Lyles University of Virginia ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM Tue Sep 28 12:37:15 2010 From: kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM (Robert Chandler) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 13:37:15 +0100 Subject: S belykh gryadochek + excrement Message-ID: Dear all, This is from the beginning of a version of ‘Po shcuchemu veleniyu’ collected by Zelenin. Берет он с залавочка ведерца, а с белых грядочек – коромысличё. The notes inform me that залавочёк is a chicken coop, and that the top of it was used as a shelf. But what are these белые грядочки? *** This version is full of references to excrement. At the beginning, Emelyan lies on his stove surrounded by his own shit. Later, when he rides on his pechka to the Tsar’s palace, the smell makes the Tsar feel sick. Once again I am out of my depth. So I will be very grateful for help from anyone who does not mind reading about such disgusting matters! 1. (As he returns from fetching water) Ведерча идут, а он идет сзади, бежит – г..ёшки коромыслом подшибает. Бежит он, хохочет. Is this correct? The pails made their way back, and he ran along behind them, batting turds along the ground bwith the yoke. 2. The Tsar sends a regiment of soldiers to deal with him. He remains carefree as ever on top of his stove. When they ask if he is at home, he replies, ‘Дома!... На печке лежу, комы гложу, некуда не хожу (DOES комы гложу MEAN HE IS EATING HIS OWN SHIT?!) 3. Солдатов полок заскакал - хто пушкам палит, хто тесаком, а чево – ево несколь не берёт: фсё в комы лепит. (I DON’T UNDERSTAND THIS AT ALL!) HERE IS THE WHOLE PARA, OR RATHER AS MUCH OF IT AS I CAN DO. The Tsar heard news of all this. He sent off a whole regiment of soldiers. They marched up to his porch. ‘Is Omelyanushko at home?’ ‘Yes, I’m at home, lying in the warm on top of the stove. ??? The soldiers began to rush about. Some fired cannons, others swung hatchets. But what did he care? ???? ‘By my father’s blessing, by my mother’s blessing, by the pike’s command!’ He had only to lift his hand – and he felled the whole regiment. Thank you, as always! R. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From James at RUSSIA-ON-LINE.COM Tue Sep 28 13:16:49 2010 From: James at RUSSIA-ON-LINE.COM (James Beale) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 09:16:49 -0400 Subject: 20th Century Russian Works about the Caucasus - SADULAEV In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: To this list I would add Alkhan-Iurt by Babchenko, translated into English as a Soldier's Story. James Beale Russia Online, Inc. Tel: 301-933-0607 Fax: 301-933-0615 Shop online 24/7: http://shop.russia-on-line.com -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] 20th Century Russian Works about the Caucasus From: John Hope Date: Mon, September 27, 2010 6:33 pm To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Dear John, A partial list of 20th-century works on the Caucasian theme would include Anatolii Pristavkin's "Nochevala tuchka zolotaia" (1987), Vladimir Makanin's "Kavkazskii plennyi" (1999, if my memory serves), a fairly large body of pulp dealing with the last two Chechen wars, Boris Akunin's "Smert' Akhillesa" (1998; at least partially relevant), and at least one story by Viktor Pelevin ("Papakhi na bashniakh"). If you expand into film you'll find Gaidai's "Kavkazskaia plennitsa," Bodrov Sr.'s "Kavkazskii plennik," Nevzorov's "Chistilishche," Konchalovskii's "Dom durakov," Rogozhkin's "Blokpost," Balabanov's "Voina," Mikhalkov's "12," and Sokurov's "Aleksandra," among others. Pretty much all of these have been translated / subtitled, with the exception of the pulp fiction and the Pelevin story. There are also a number of books and articles on the subject. --- On Mon, 9/27/10, John Lyles wrote: > From: John Lyles > Subject: [SEELANGS] 20th Century Russian Works about the Caucasus > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Date: Monday, September 27, 2010, 4:17 PM > Dear All, > > Does anyone know of any works of Russian literature from > the 20th century > that take place in the Caucasus or deal with Russia's > presence there? Or > any works in which Caucasians play a prominent role? > I can only think of > Tolstoy's *Hadji Murat* and Iskander's stories, including > *Sandro from > Chegem*. I am particularly curious to see how Soviet > writers treat the > Caucasus and its place in Russian history. Thank you > in advance for your > help. > > John Lyles > University of Virginia > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the > SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Tue Sep 28 13:47:19 2010 From: j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 14:47:19 +0100 Subject: S belykh gryadochek + excrement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Passage 2 may not necessarily be a reference to coprophagy (though if it is, it adds a whole new layer of meaning to the phrase первый блин комом [pervyj blin komom]). According to Dal', the meanings of комы [komy] include хлѣбы, оладьи [xleby, olad'i], though I suppose intentional ambiguity is not impossible here. Dal' also suggests some possible meanings for грядочки [grjadochki], s.v. гряда [grjada]. In passage 3 might it be possible that ево несколь не берёт [evo neskol' ne beret] could be translated as: They don't manage to lay a finger on him (or something to that effect)? John Dunn. ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Robert Chandler [kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM] Sent: 28 September 2010 14:37 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] S belykh gryadochek + excrement Dear all, This is from the beginning of a version of ‘Po shcuchemu veleniyu’ collected by Zelenin. Берет он с залавочка ведерца, а с белых грядочек – коромысличё. The notes inform me that залавочёк is a chicken coop, and that the top of it was used as a shelf. But what are these белые грядочки? *** This version is full of references to excrement. At the beginning, Emelyan lies on his stove surrounded by his own shit. Later, when he rides on his pechka to the Tsar’s palace, the smell makes the Tsar feel sick. Once again I am out of my depth. So I will be very grateful for help from anyone who does not mind reading about such disgusting matters! 1. (As he returns from fetching water) Ведерча идут, а он идет сзади, бежит – г..ёшки коромыслом подшибает. Бежит он, хохочет. Is this correct? The pails made their way back, and he ran along behind them, batting turds along the ground bwith the yoke. 2. The Tsar sends a regiment of soldiers to deal with him. He remains carefree as ever on top of his stove. When they ask if he is at home, he replies, ‘Дома!... На печке лежу, комы гложу, некуда не хожу (DOES комы гложу MEAN HE IS EATING HIS OWN SHIT?!) 3. Солдатов полок заскакал - хто пушкам палит, хто тесаком, а чево – ево несколь не берёт: фсё в комы лепит. (I DON’T UNDERSTAND THIS AT ALL!) HERE IS THE WHOLE PARA, OR RATHER AS MUCH OF IT AS I CAN DO. The Tsar heard news of all this. He sent off a whole regiment of soldiers. They marched up to his porch. ‘Is Omelyanushko at home?’ ‘Yes, I’m at home, lying in the warm on top of the stove. ??? The soldiers began to rush about. Some fired cannons, others swung hatchets. But what did he care? ???? ‘By my father’s blessing, by my mother’s blessing, by the pike’s command!’ He had only to lift his hand – and he felled the whole regiment. Thank you, as always! R. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From perova09 at GMAIL.COM Tue Sep 28 14:00:25 2010 From: perova09 at GMAIL.COM (Perova Natasha) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 18:00:25 +0400 Subject: Caucasus in contemporary Russian fiction Message-ID: I'd like to remind the SEELANGS members that GLAS has published a lot of contemporary Russian stories and novels in good English translation on all sorts of subjects including the Caucasus. Very strange that Glas and Chteniya are disregarded. There are so few sources on 20th century Russian literature in English translation and even they remain unnoticed. On the theme of the Caucasus we have the following: Makanin's "Captives of the Caucasus" (in CAPTIVES); Arkady Babchenko's "Argun" (in War&Peace); Denis Butov's "Five Days of War" (in War&Peace); Alan Cherchesov's novel Requiem for the Living; Julia Latynina's Niyazbek (in War&Peace); Gulla Khirachev's short novel Salam, Dalgat (in Squaring the Circle); Arslan Khasavov's Braguny Story (also in Squaring the Circle) Natasha Perova Glas New Russian Writing tel/fax: (7)495-4419157 perova at glas.msk.su www.glas.msk.su ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From merril25 at CAL.MSU.EDU Tue Sep 28 14:16:22 2010 From: merril25 at CAL.MSU.EDU (Jason Merrill) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 10:16:22 -0400 Subject: Job Announcement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear SEELANGS, I am posting this for a colleague. Please direct questions to them. ** ** *Job Title* Visiting Assistant Professor of Modern Languages *Description* The Department of Modern Languages at Washington & Jefferson College invites applications for a visiting assistant professor of Modern Languages. This one-year position begins in August 2011 and carries the possibility of renewal for up to two additional years. This position entails leading the non-major languages program, teaching language and culture courses at various levels, and potentially teaching a methodology course. The successful candidate will have a completed doctorate and demonstrated excellence teaching in one of the College's non-major languages: Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, or *Russian*. Preference given to candidates with*/ expertise in second language acquisition./* Electronic applications are preferred, and those interested in applying for the position should send to hr at washjeff.edu the following items by 20 January 2011: a cover letter, curriculum vitae, a statement of teaching philosophy, and full contact information only for three professional references (no letters until requested). Washington & Jefferson College is a selective liberal arts college located thirty miles from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. The oldest such college located west of the Allegheny mountains, W&J welcomes applications from creative and adaptable individuals who are dedicated to undergraduate liberal arts education, who cherish close interaction between faculty and students, and who enjoy participating in and promoting a diverse community committed to multicultural and global understanding. Discover more about the College at www.washjeff.edu . Washington & Jefferson College is committed to increasing diversity in our community and actively pursues individuals from all backgrounds. Additionally, W&J College complies with all applicable federal, state and local laws and provides equal opportunity in all educational programs and activities, admission of students and conditions of employment for all qualified individuals regardless of race, color, sex, religion, age, disability, sexual orientation, or national origin. *Contact Person* Human Resources *Phone* 724-223-6509 *E-mail* hr at washjeff.edu *Posted* September 27, 2010 -- Jason Merrill Associate Professor of Russian, Department of Linguistics and Languages Director, Middlebury College Kathryn Wasserman Davis School of Russian A-643 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48864 ph: (517) 355-8365 fax: (517) 432-2736 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Tue Sep 28 20:13:34 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 16:13:34 -0400 Subject: Caucasus in contemporary Russian fiction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you, Natasha (re: Glas translations)! Is anyone planning to translate Makanin's Asan? The work is absolutely fascinating and heart-breaking. Very controversial and giving a complex perspective on the Chechen war. o.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From goscilo at GMAIL.COM Tue Sep 28 20:29:27 2010 From: goscilo at GMAIL.COM (helena goscilo) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 16:29:27 -0400 Subject: CFP: 'From Central to Digital: Television in Russia' International Conference In-Reply-To: <734605.88434.qm@web29717.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Posting for a friend, HG *From Central to Digital: Television in Russia* international conference; 10-11 March 2011 Russian State University for Humanities, Moscow , in collaboration with the University of Leeds *Conference website: http://dtv.vladstrukov.com* *1 December 2010*- deadline for submitting paper and panel proposals As many other countries anticipating the digital television transition, Russia faces a few formidable challenges, including selecting technical standards, developing new digital content, regulating relationships between platforms and service providers, and balancing between public and commercial interests. The complexity of the process is exacerbated by the sheer size of the country and by uneven development of its regions. The conference aims to explore social and cultural implications in the transition to digital television by providing an analysis of the regulatory framework, DTV markets, forms of signal delivery, configuration of DTV channels in Russia ’s regions, and convergence of media platforms. The conference specifically endeavours to examine the role of digital technologies in transforming the political and cultural landscape of Russian television by looking at internet television channels, multi-regional channel *Russia Today,* and other delivery platforms. It plans to investigate social and cultural implications of DTV in Russia by focusing on new genres, hybrid forms of media texts, innovative content of DTV programming as well as on the changing role of DTV audiences. Papers are sought from a spectrum of disciplines such as Television and Film Studies, Media and Communication Studies, Cultural Studies, History, and Political Science. The themes for papers might include: *DTV theory and practice*: success and complexity of digitalization (processes, experiences and first results of introducing new technology into Russian media landscape, case-studies of existing DTV platforms). *Advancing DTV*: interrelations of the state, business and the public in the process of Russian media digitalization; DTV and public and private spheres, central and regional players. *Locating Russian DTV*: traditions of the Soviet television, changes and innovations of 1990-2000s in the context of new media forms. *International Perspective*: comparison of Russian digital switchover with cases in Europe, USA , China , Japan , and former Soviet republics. *DTV audiences*: case studies of Russian DTV audiences, diversification and segmentation of audiences, influence of digital technology on social activism, new fandoms. *DTV programming*: analysis of changes to TV content because of new technologies, new television texts and their messages, global versus local produce, constructions of a new social, political and cultural reality on DTV channels. *DTV as a new medium / language*: cultural implications of DTV technology, new formats, interactivity, viewers’ creativity as resources for future development; creolized TV-Internet texts, technological convergence versus cultural hybridization. *Confirmed List of **Plenary **Speakers: * *Professor Stephen Hutchings * ( University of Manchester ); *Professor **Andrei Richter * ( Moscow State University ); and *Mr **Michael Starks ** **( Oxford University ).*** * * *Organizers / Contact Information * Vlad Strukov (Russian DTV conference) SMLC University of Leeds , Leeds LS2 9JT United Kingdom *v.strukov at leeds.ac.uk* Vera Zvereva k. 307, 5 korpus, Department of History and Theory of Culture Russian State University for the Humanities 6, Miusskaia pl. Moscow , Russian , Moscow ) e-mail: *zverca at yandex.ru* *You can submit either a paper or a panel proposal.* If you plan to submit a paper proposal, please provide an abstract of your paper (either in English or Russian, maximum 400 words) along with your registration form. If you plan to submit a panel proposal, please provide a panel description (either in English or Russian, maximum 300 words), an abstract for each paper on the panel (either in English or Russian, maximum 400 words) and a registration for each presenter. The registration form should include the following information: title, name and surname, name of your organization, your position, postal address, e-mail address, and contact telephone number. The working languages of the conference are Russian and English. Preliminary conference programme will be announced on 20 December 2010. The final conference programme will be published on the conference website in January 2011. *Planned Publication* Papers presented at the conference will be considered for publication in leading Russian and British academic journals. Materials of the round table discussion will be published in *Iskusstvo kino* [Art of cinema] journal. -- Helena Goscilo Professor and Chair Dept. of Slavic Langs. and Lits. at OSU 1775 College Road Columbus, OH 43210 Tel: (614) 292-6733 Fax: (614) 688-3107 Leverhulme Professor, Visiting Professor at University of Leeds, UK Motto: "It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book." Friedrich Nietzsche ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mkostina at SBCGLOBAL.NET Tue Sep 28 22:42:43 2010 From: mkostina at SBCGLOBAL.NET (Marina Kostina) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 17:42:43 -0500 Subject: Online Russian programs Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I am looking for online Russian programs, specifically those that use "Live from Russia" or "Live from Moscow" textbooks. I would greatly appreciate any suggestions. Thank you very much for your help, Sincerely, Marina V. Kostina, PhD candidate in Secondary Education, The University of Iowa ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kyelenak at GMAIL.COM Tue Sep 28 23:43:22 2010 From: kyelenak at GMAIL.COM (Yelena Kalinsky) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 19:43:22 -0400 Subject: Mark Twain censorship? Message-ID: Dear list members, I wonder if anybody knows whether Mark Twain was ever censored in the Soviet Union or how I might find out? Many thanks, Yelena Kalinsky PhD candidate, Rutgers ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From asured at VERIZON.NET Wed Sep 29 08:01:49 2010 From: asured at VERIZON.NET (Steve Marder) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 04:01:49 -0400 Subject: Mark Twain censorship? In-Reply-To: <842FECD8-93E1-4EF2-AC5B-66C33349FFB7@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Dear list members, > > I wonder if anybody knows whether Mark Twain was ever censored in the Soviet > Union or how I might find out? > > Many thanks, > > Yelena Kalinsky > > PhD candidate, > Rutgers You might want to check this out: http://www.libshare.ru/pages/writer/ru-Tven_Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From timur2000 at JUNO.COM Wed Sep 29 14:39:51 2010 From: timur2000 at JUNO.COM (Tim West) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 09:39:51 -0500 Subject: Mark Twain censorship? Message-ID: Yelena, Censorship in Soviet Literature, 1917-1991 (Herman Ermolaev) deals exclusively with Soviet writers, but it has a great bibliography that you may find helpful. Tim West ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From zielinski at GMX.CH Wed Sep 29 15:05:13 2010 From: zielinski at GMX.CH (Jan Zielinski) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 17:05:13 +0200 Subject: Mark Twain censorship? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yelena Kalinsky asks: >I wonder if anybody knows whether Mark Twain was ever censored in the Soviet Union or how I might find out? He was censored already by the tsarist censorship: "Первый русский перевод «Простаков за границей» появился в 1897 г. Царская цензура сделала в книге сокращение, в частности там, где он описывал пребывание в России." http://vashsevdom.narod.ru/histor/twain.html http://forum.roerich.info/showthread.php?t=7210 Here you have something about the film "Adventures of Mark Twain" and the soviet censorship: http://www.diary.ru/~chageandaska/p31513978.htm You may also want to have a look at this 1963 "Voprosy literatury" paper, to see the other side of the problem: http://dlib.eastview.com/browse/doc/11980114?enc=deu Jan Zielinski ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From yasicus at RAMBLER.RU Wed Sep 29 16:23:17 2010 From: yasicus at RAMBLER.RU (Iaroslav Pankovskyi) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 20:23:17 +0400 Subject: Vocalics & "=?windows-1251?Q?=F7=E5=F1=F2=FC-=F5=E2=E0=EB=E0=22discussion.?= Message-ID: Dear Robert and All, I have been observing the "честь-хвала" discussion for some time now. >From my perspective I would like to say that it is not only the lexical meaning that matters but also nonverbal means of communication (I love them). Vocalics (intonation, speech volume, speed of speech) are all important. Sometimes so much important that they complitely alter the meaning. Think of a mother mother and her little son. The boy breaks a vase and she tells him "What a good boy!" Does she really mean "a good boy" or rather "naughty boy"? In fact both the mother and the boy understand what she really means. Why? Due to the variations in speech, vocalics. Now, going back to "честь-хвала". I strongly believe that Russian speech can be highly emotional. And "честь-хвала" may be just such a case. In my opinion, pronounced correspondingly it will mean "Ah, [whatsoever]...". It actually make very little sense on its own out of context. Best wishes, Iaroslav P. Dear Robert and all, I don't know whether the following goes without saying, but I know with some certainty that "Не честь–хвала да молодецкая!" is a fixed epithet reflecting a bogatyr's shame in many bylinas. Pace this from "Илья Муромец в ссоре с князем Владимиром": «А не честь-хвала да молодецкая Сидеть русскому могучему богатырю С голью кабацкою, с нищетой бедняцкою, [...]» So here, "не честь-хвала" is unambiguously a negation - our hero is "бесчестный" and "непохвальный", keeping such company. The scene also recalls your fairytale's Ivan-Tsarevich, incognito "с удальцами на ряду." I hope that helps a bit! Yours, Boris -----Original Message----- >From: Robert Chandler >Sent: Sep 27, 2010 1:30 PM >To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu [compose.cgi?enc=utf-8;4e0d;mailto=SEELANGS%40bama.ua.edu] >Subject: [SEELANGS] FW: [SEELANGS] Tsar'-devitsa - Не честь–хвала > >Olgajan, > >Here is what I wrote originally: > >Ivan Tsarevich is overwhelmed by the beauty of the sleeping Marya-Krasa, >Dolga Kosa. And so >“Что мне не честь!” разгорелось у молодца ретивое сердце. > >And then he waters his horse at her well. > > * > >I NOW understand this as "Is not this an honour for me?" And it IS an >honour for him. She is someone very special (a niece of Baba Yaga!!), and >at the end of the story he will marry her and live with her in the >podsolnechnoe tsarstvo. > >Rx > > >------ Forwarded Message >From: Olga Meerson >Reply-To: seelangs >Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:21:57 -0400 >To: seelangs >Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Tsar'-devitsa - Не честь–хвала > >Robertjan, Re: >"Не честь–хвала да молодецкая! - в дорожку был справивши не в вестимую, >получил своего батюшка вси прихоти, и - буде поискать свого родного братца, >Дмитрия-царевича!" > >What is the PREVIOUS context for the expression? Negations (e.g., as listed >similes) may have a non-negated effect in Russian folklore (e.g.. ьл не >ветер ветку клонит, не дубравушка шумит--то мое сердечко стонет, как осенний >лист дрожит), and in fact, the same semantic shade WOULD be present in the >"CHEM mne ne chest'?", as a rhetorical question. But NOT IN ALL >contexts--certainly, not in chto mne beschest'e?! Negations, even if a given >sequence of words containing them is the exact same, may mean very different >thongs depending on the context OF that syntax--what surrounds it. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ [redirect.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fseelangs.home.comcast.net%2F;href=1] >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >------ End of Forwarded Message > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ [redirect.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fseelangs.home.comcast.net%2F;href=1] >------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ [redirect.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fseelangs.home.comcast.net%2F;href=1] ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kyelenak at GMAIL.COM Wed Sep 29 18:55:19 2010 From: kyelenak at GMAIL.COM (yelena kalinsky) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:55:19 -0400 Subject: Mark Twain censorship? In-Reply-To: <4CA355A9.5030601@gmx.ch> Message-ID: Thanks for the leads, everyone. The only things I've been able to dig up so far is a few statements to the effect that Twain had been "labeled a bourgeois writer" (The Mark Twain Encyclopedia) and that his books were "confiscated at the border" in 1930, but had "become best sellers in the Soviet Union" by 1946. (Banned Books: 387 BC to 1978 AD). But there are no citations given to actual instances. I know that Twain was hugely popular, and it makes sense that his descriptions of Russia might have been cut in tsarist times, but I'm curious whether Twain's satire ever faced political accusations in the Soviet period despite its popularity. best, Yelena On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 11:05 AM, Jan Zielinski wrote: > Yelena Kalinsky asks: > > > >I wonder if anybody knows whether Mark Twain was ever censored in the > Soviet Union or how I might find out? > > He was censored already by the tsarist censorship: > > "Первый русский перевод <<Простаков за границей>> появился в 1897 г. Царская > цензура сделала в книге сокращение, в частности там, где он описывал > пребывание в России." > > http://vashsevdom.narod.ru/histor/twain.html > > http://forum.roerich.info/showthread.php?t=7210 > > Here you have something about the film "Adventures of Mark Twain" and the > soviet censorship: > > http://www.diary.ru/~chageandaska/p31513978.htm > > You may also want to have a look at this 1963 "Voprosy literatury" paper, > to see the other side of the problem: > > http://dlib.eastview.com/browse/doc/11980114?enc=deu > > Jan Zielinski > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ingsoc at earthlink.net Wed Sep 29 20:03:21 2010 From: ingsoc at earthlink.net (Boris Dralyuk) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 13:03:21 -0700 Subject: Mark Twain censorship? Message-ID: Dear Yelena, It's hard going, I know! See if these help: Choldin, Marianna Tax and Maurice Friedberg, eds. The Red Pencil: Artists, Scholars, and Censors in the USSR. Boston: Unwin Hyman, 1989. Friedberg, Maurice. Literary Translation in Russia: A Cultural History. University Park: Pennsylvania State University Press, 1997. Leighton, Lauren G. Two Worlds, One Art: Literary Translation in Russia and America. Dekalb: Northern Illinois University Press, 1991. Magidoff, Robert. In Anger and Pity: A Report on Russia. Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday, 1949. Pp. 230-233. Also, see what Kornei Chukovskii says about his experiences translating Twain. The other translators include Mariia Lorie and N. Daruzes. I hope that helps! Yours, Boris Dralyuk UCLA -----Original Message----- >From: yelena kalinsky >Sent: Sep 29, 2010 11:55 AM >To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu >Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Mark Twain censorship? > >Thanks for the leads, everyone. > >The only things I've been able to dig up so far is a few statements to the >effect that Twain had been "labeled a bourgeois writer" (The Mark Twain >Encyclopedia) and that his books were "confiscated at the border" in 1930, >but had "become best sellers in the Soviet Union" by 1946. (Banned Books: >387 BC to 1978 AD). But there are no citations given to actual instances. I >know that Twain was hugely popular, and it makes sense that his descriptions >of Russia might have been cut in tsarist times, but I'm curious whether >Twain's satire ever faced political accusations in the Soviet period despite >its popularity. > >best, > >Yelena > > >On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 11:05 AM, Jan Zielinski wrote: > >> Yelena Kalinsky asks: >> >> >> >I wonder if anybody knows whether Mark Twain was ever censored in the >> Soviet Union or how I might find out? >> >> He was censored already by the tsarist censorship: >> >> "Первый русский перевод <<Простаков за границей>> появился в 1897 г. Царская >> цензура сделала в книге сокращение, в частности там, где он описывал >> пребывание в России." >> >> http://vashsevdom.narod.ru/histor/twain.html >> >> http://forum.roerich.info/showthread.php?t=7210 >> >> Here you have something about the film "Adventures of Mark Twain" and the >> soviet censorship: >> >> http://www.diary.ru/~chageandaska/p31513978.htm >> >> You may also want to have a look at this 1963 "Voprosy literatury" paper, >> to see the other side of the problem: >> >> http://dlib.eastview.com/browse/doc/11980114?enc=deu >> >> Jan Zielinski >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription >> options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: >> http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From russell-valentino at UIOWA.EDU Wed Sep 29 20:09:06 2010 From: russell-valentino at UIOWA.EDU (Valentino, Russell) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 15:09:06 -0500 Subject: Tolstoy and Chekhov celebration Message-ID: In case any list members are nearby... CHEKHOV'S BIRTH 150 YEARS AGO TOLSTOY'S DEATH 100 YEARS AGO UI RUSSIAN PROGRAM 50 YEARS OLD IOWA CITY, UNESCO CITY OF LITERATURE CELEBRATES TOLSTOY, CHEKHOV, AND THE UNIVERSITY OF IOWA'S RUSSIAN PROGRAM OCTOBER 2010 PUBLIC READING: ANNA KARENINA by LEO TOLSTOY 10/27-10/30, DOWNTOWN AT THE FOUNTAIN WEDNESDAY AND THURSDAY 9 A.M. - 9 P.M. FRIDAY AND SATURDAY 9 A.M. - 6 P.M. (OR TILL FINISHED) SIGN UP AT PHILLIPS HALL 9/26-10/26 OR ON LOCATION DURING THE READING STAGED READING: THE CHERRY ORCHARD by ANTON CHEKHOV (ACTS 1 AND 4) 10/29, TRINITY EPISCOPAL CHURCH, 7 P.M. DIRECTOR: MIKE LEWIS-BECK PLAYERS: NATASA DUROVICOVA, JIM HARRIS, JOANNE MADSEN, TOM HOBART, MICHAEL LENSING, GERHILD KRAPF, JOHN FREYER, ED FOLSOM, SASHA WATERS, JERRY SOROKIN, LINDA MCGUIRE, TOM LAYMAN, JOHN KRAMER, AND BAHRI KARACAY. MOVIE SCREENING: TOLSTOY ADAPTATIONS 10/30, IOWA CITY PUBLIC LIBRARY, MEETING ROOM A 12P.M. WAR AND PEACE (1956) AUDREY HEPBURN (3H 30MIN) 4P.M. ANNA KARENINA (1935) GRETA GARBO (1H 30MIN) COMMEMORATIVE READING: TOLSTOY AND CHEKHOV CELEBRATION 10/30, OLD CAPITOL, 7 P.M. READERS: TIM BUDD, KATHERINE MOYERS, JOHN RAEBURN, AND JOAN KJAER BEETHOVEN, VIOLIN SONATA No. 9, 'KREUTZER' FIRST MOVEMENT, TRICIA PARK, VIOLIN, RENE LECUONA, PIANO 50 YEARS OF RUSSIAN AT THE U OF Iowa 10/31, BLACK BOX THEATER, IMU, 2-5 P.M. EXHIBIT: MAURICIO LASANSKY, 'TOLSTOY' 10/26-10/31, U OF Iowa MUSEUM OF ART, Iowa Memorial Union Tues. 10-5; Wed. 10-5; Thurs. 10-8; Fri. 10-5; Sat. & Sun. 12-5 More information at www.uscityofliterature.com Sponsored by: Asian and Slavic Languages and Literatures Division of World Languages, Literatures, and Cultures Cinema and Comparative Literature Humanities Iowa and the National Endowment for Humanities University of Iowa Museum of Art University of Iowa School of Music Prairie Lights Zephyr Copies Trinity Episcopal Church Aero Rental Moengroup Individuals with disabilities are encouraged to attend all University of Iowa-sponsored events. If you are a person with a disability who requires an accommodation in order to participate in this program, please contact Peggy Timm 111 PH 335-2151. Russell Scott Valentino Professor and Chair Cinema and Comparative Literature http://www.uiowa.edu/~ccl/ Editor, The Iowa Review http://www.iowareview.org/ tel. 319-335-2827 University of Iowa ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Keo at PRINCETON.EDU Wed Sep 29 20:07:06 2010 From: Keo at PRINCETON.EDU (Katya E. Ossorgin) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 15:07:06 -0500 Subject: Chair Needed for ASEEES (AAASS) Panel Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Please consider filling in as chair for our panel on Russian/Soviet Film and Music at this year's ASEEES (formerly AAASS) meeting in Los Angeles (specifically, on Friday, Nov. 19 at 3:15pm). Our chair can no longer serve and we need to find a replacement. The chair's duties are minimal--introducing the speakers, keeping time, moderating questions. If you can be our chair, please email me at keo at Princeton.edu. Thank you! All Best, Katya Ermolaev-Ossorgin PhD candidate in Musicology Department of Music Princeton University Princeton, NJ 08544 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Wed Sep 29 20:12:34 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 21:12:34 +0100 Subject: Tolstoy and Chekhov celebration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "PUBLIC READING: ANNA KARENINA by LEO TOLSTOY 10/27-10/30, DOWNTOWN AT THE FOUNTAIN WEDNESDAY AND THURSDAY 9 A.M. - 9 P.M. FRIDAY AND SATURDAY 9 A.M. - 6 P.M. (OR TILL FINISHED) SIGN UP AT PHILLIPS HALL 9/26-10/26 OR ON LOCATION DURING THE READING" As an aside, that ad could be taken in a very humourous vein: "Dead guy does a public reading of his novel: tickets sold here!" ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From russell-valentino at UIOWA.EDU Wed Sep 29 20:52:02 2010 From: russell-valentino at UIOWA.EDU (Valentino, Russell) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 15:52:02 -0500 Subject: Tolstoy and Chekhov celebration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I do believe he's scheduled to make an appearance. -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Stephanie Briggs Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 3:13 PM To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Tolstoy and Chekhov celebration "PUBLIC READING: ANNA KARENINA by LEO TOLSTOY 10/27-10/30, DOWNTOWN AT THE FOUNTAIN WEDNESDAY AND THURSDAY 9 A.M. - 9 P.M. FRIDAY AND SATURDAY 9 A.M. - 6 P.M. (OR TILL FINISHED) SIGN UP AT PHILLIPS HALL 9/26-10/26 OR ON LOCATION DURING THE READING" As an aside, that ad could be taken in a very humourous vein: "Dead guy does a public reading of his novel: tickets sold here!" ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sdsures at GMAIL.COM Wed Sep 29 20:53:09 2010 From: sdsures at GMAIL.COM (Stephanie Briggs) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 21:53:09 +0100 Subject: Tolstoy and Chekhov celebration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: OK, that's creepy in a Dickensian kind of way. *Marley shakes his chains* ***************************** ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ On 29 September 2010 21:52, Valentino, Russell wrote: > I do believe he's scheduled to make an appearance. > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list > [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Stephanie Briggs > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 3:13 PM > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Tolstoy and Chekhov celebration > > "PUBLIC READING: ANNA KARENINA by LEO TOLSTOY > 10/27-10/30, DOWNTOWN AT THE FOUNTAIN > WEDNESDAY AND THURSDAY 9 A.M. - 9 P.M. > FRIDAY AND SATURDAY 9 A.M. - 6 P.M. (OR TILL FINISHED) > SIGN UP AT PHILLIPS HALL 9/26-10/26 > OR ON LOCATION DURING THE READING" > > As an aside, that ad could be taken in a very humourous vein: "Dead guy > does > a public reading of his novel: tickets sold here!" > > ***************************** > ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs > http://sdsures.blogspot.com/ > > Come have a look at my handmade knitted afghans and scarves! > THIRD SALE: 06/08/10! > http://warmochfuzzy.etsy.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mm504 at CAM.AC.UK Wed Sep 29 21:56:24 2010 From: mm504 at CAM.AC.UK (Muireann Maguire) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 16:56:24 -0500 Subject: Red Hats Message-ID: Dear all, I am translating a short story by Alexander Chayanov, 'The Tale of the Hairdresser's Mannequin'. I have been foiled for some time by an idiom I can't trace in any of the dictionaries I use (and which has also puzzled a native speaker). The hero is trying to trace the originals of the mannequins, and has initiated a pan-European search for a person called Chantrain who may have more information about them. This is what Chayanov writes (as I've had problems with visibility of my Cyrillic text in previous posts, I will also provide a transliteration): Poiski Shantrena, na kotorye byli snariazheny neskol'ko krasnykh shapok, podvigalis' medlenno. Поиски Шантрен&#1072;, на кот&#1086;рые были снаря&#1078;ены несколько &#1082;расных шапок, подвигались ме&#1076;ленно. I suspect that 'krasnye shapki' are private detectives of some sort. Can anyone confirm or dispel this suspicion? To date I have a nonsensical translation, 'The search for Chantrain, for which several red hats were equipped, progressed slowly'. With thanks in advance, Muireann Maguire ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From MedzhibI at NEWSCHOOL.EDU Thu Sep 30 02:29:50 2010 From: MedzhibI at NEWSCHOOL.EDU (Inessa Medzhibovskaya) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 22:29:50 -0400 Subject: Tolstoy in the Twenty-First Century (Symposium Announcement) Message-ID: Tolstoy in the Twenty-First Century International Symposium at the New School (New York, New York) Dates: October 14-17, 2010 Time: 9:30 am-10:00 pm (doors open at 9 am) Location: Tishman Auditorium (66 West 12th Street) and Wollman Hall (65 West 11th Street), New York, New York 10011 Eugene Lang College and The New School are pleased to present "Tolstoy in the Twenty-First Century" (October 14-17, 2010). This international symposium will celebrate Tolstoy's life and legacy and commemorate the centenary of his death. It features philosophers, political scientists, literary scholars, writers and journalists who represent diverse fields and approaches to teaching and research in the humanities, arts, and social sciences. The symposium will discuss new perspectives on Tolstoy for our time and beyond: Tolstoy the politically engaged artist and intellectual in quest of universal happiness. The traditions of academic inquiry at The New School echo Tolstoy's own idealism and his search for social justice. A hundred years after Tolstoy's death we are still far from grasping the meaning of his role as a literary watershed between a Realist worldview and Modernism. We are further still from satisfactorily exploring the extensive impact of his aesthetic, religious, ! educational, philosophical, and political thinking. The contributors will explore Tolstoy's legacy under the traditional rubrics (literary art, aesthetics, history of ideas), along more radical lines (the politics of civic disobedience), and along lines that are totally unexpected-such as Tolstoy and "sustainable living." Our hope is to open up the greatness of this indispensable Russian writer and thinker to renewed life in the twenty-first century. Invited speakers: Galina Alexeeva, Banu Bargu, Nicholas Birns, Andrei Bitov, Margaret Boe Birns, A.D.P. (Tony) Briggs, Jeff Brooks, Julie Buckler, Ellen Chances, Alice Crary, Michael Denner, Caryl Emerson, Galina Galagan, Anna Grodetskaya, Alexander Gulin, Stephen Halliwell, Agnes Heller, Maria Koz'mina, Paul Kottman, Anne Lounsbery, Jeff Gordon Love, Rick McPeak, Inessa Medzhibovskaya, Simon Morrison, Gary Saul Morson, Dan Moulin, Dmitri Nikulin, Donna Tussing Orwin, Vladimir Paperni, Dominic Pettman, Vitaly Remizov, Lina Steiner, Vladimir Tolstoy, Zisan Ugurlu, Ilya Vinitsky, Val Vinokur, Andrew Baruch Wachtel, McKenzie Wark, Thomas Werner, Sara Winter, Robert Whittaker, Galina Zlobina as well as Eugene Lang Literary Studies faculty and students. Please visit our website www.newschool.edu/tolstoy-conference for details Admission is free, but registration required by 10/12/10 to guarantee seating: elcdean at newschool.edu or Tolstoy21stCentury at newschool.edu Please forward all other inquiries to Inessa Medzhibovskaya medzhibi at newschool.edu Sponsored by Eugene Lang College the New School for Liberal Arts, with additional funding from the Provost's Office of the New School. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK Thu Sep 30 10:58:17 2010 From: Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK (Simon Beattie) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 11:58:17 +0100 Subject: Samizdat [was: Mark Twain censorship?] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Talking of banned books, can anyone recommend a good introduction to/history of samizdat? Thanks. Simon -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Tim West Sent: 29 September 2010 15:40 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Mark Twain censorship? Yelena, Censorship in Soviet Literature, 1917-1991 (Herman Ermolaev) deals exclusively with Soviet writers, but it has a great bibliography that you may find helpful. Tim West ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK Thu Sep 30 11:42:12 2010 From: Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK (Alexandra Smith) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 12:42:12 +0100 Subject: Samizdat In-Reply-To: <019601cb608e$6436b300$2ca41900$@co.uk> Message-ID: Dear Simon, If you are interested in samizdat and its history, I would recommend to read at least a few books and articles that I find very useful and informative. See my list below: * Dolinin, Viacheslav and Severyukhin, Dmitry., editors. Samizdat Leningrada: Litraturnaia entsiklopediia, 1950e-1980e, Moscow, Novoe literaturnoe obozrenie,2003. * Dolinin, Viacheslav and Severyukhin, Dmitry.Preodolenie nemoty. Leningradskii samizdat v kontekste nezavisimogo kul'turnogo dvizheniia 1953-91 gg. St Petersburg: Izdatel'stvo imeni N.I. Novikova, 2003. * Dolininin, V. and Ivanov, B., eds. Samizdat, St Petersburg: Nauchno-informativnyj tsentr "Memorial", 2003. * Savitsky, Stanislav. Andegraund. Istoriia i mify leningradskoi neofitsial'noi literatury. Moscow; Kafedra slavostiki univrsiteta Khelsinki: Novoe Literaturnoe obozrenie, 2002. * Ivanov, B. Istoriia leningradskoi nepodsenzurnoi literatury. St Petersburg: Dean, 2000. * Kolchinsky, Irene. The Revival of the Russian Literary Avant-Garde: the Thaw Generation and Beyond. Munich: Verlag Otto Sagner, 2001. * Rein, Evgeny. Mne skuchno bez Dovlatova. St Petersburg: Limbus Press, 1997. * Ol'ga Sedakova. "O pogibshem literaturnom pokolenii. Pamiati Leonida Gubanova", Volga, No.6, June 1990. (The editor of this journal was sacked for publishing Sedakova's article.). * Krivulin, Viktor. Okhota na mamonta. St Petersburg: Russko-baltijskij informatsionnyj tsentr BLITs, 1998. With best wishes, Alexandra -------------------------------- Alexandra Smith (PhD, University of London) Reader in Russian Studies Department of European Languages and Cultures School of Languages, Literatures and Cultures The University of Edinburgh David Hume Tower George Square Edinburgh EH8 9JX UK tel. +44-(0)131-6511381 fax: +44- (0)131 -651 -1482 e-mail: Alexandra.Smith at ed.ac.uk Quoting Simon Beattie : > Talking of banned books, can anyone recommend a good introduction to/history > of samizdat? > > Thanks. > > Simon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list > [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Tim West > Sent: 29 September 2010 15:40 > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Mark Twain censorship? > > Yelena, > > Censorship in Soviet Literature, 1917-1991 (Herman Ermolaev) deals > exclusively > with Soviet writers, but it has a great bibliography that you may find > helpful. > > Tim West > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kyelenak at EDEN.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Sep 30 11:51:09 2010 From: kyelenak at EDEN.RUTGERS.EDU (Yelena Kalinsky) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 07:51:09 -0400 Subject: Samizdat [was: Mark Twain censorship?] In-Reply-To: <019601cb608e$6436b300$2ca41900$@co.uk> Message-ID: Dear Simon, If you read German, take a look at Samizdat. Alternative Kultur in Zentral- und Osteuropa: Die 60er bis 80er Jahre (Bremen: Edition Temmen, 2000). It was published by the Forschungsstelle Osteuropa in Bremen, which houses an excellent collection of samizdat materials from Central and Eastern Europe. The book also reproduces many objects from the archive, so even if you don't read German, you can see what samizdat materials actually looked like. best, Yelena Kalinsky PhD candidate Rutgers University On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 6:58 AM, Simon Beattie wrote: > Talking of banned books, can anyone recommend a good introduction > to/history > of samizdat? > > Thanks. > > Simon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list > [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Tim West > Sent: 29 September 2010 15:40 > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Mark Twain censorship? > > Yelena, > > Censorship in Soviet Literature, 1917-1991 (Herman Ermolaev) deals > exclusively > with Soviet writers, but it has a great bibliography that you may find > helpful. > > Tim West > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK Thu Sep 30 11:57:12 2010 From: Simon at SIMONBEATTIE.CO.UK (Simon Beattie) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 12:57:12 +0100 Subject: Samizdat [was: Mark Twain censorship?] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you, Alexandra and Yelena, for the suggestions. I do read German, so I'll try and see a copy of the book. Simon -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Yelena Kalinsky Sent: 30 September 2010 12:51 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Samizdat [was: Mark Twain censorship?] Dear Simon, If you read German, take a look at Samizdat. Alternative Kultur in Zentral- und Osteuropa: Die 60er bis 80er Jahre (Bremen: Edition Temmen, 2000). It was published by the Forschungsstelle Osteuropa in Bremen, which houses an excellent collection of samizdat materials from Central and Eastern Europe. The book also reproduces many objects from the archive, so even if you don't read German, you can see what samizdat materials actually looked like. best, Yelena Kalinsky PhD candidate Rutgers University On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 6:58 AM, Simon Beattie wrote: > Talking of banned books, can anyone recommend a good introduction > to/history > of samizdat? > > Thanks. > > Simon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list > [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Tim West > Sent: 29 September 2010 15:40 > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Mark Twain censorship? > > Yelena, > > Censorship in Soviet Literature, 1917-1991 (Herman Ermolaev) deals > exclusively > with Soviet writers, but it has a great bibliography that you may find > helpful. > > Tim West > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU Thu Sep 30 12:20:58 2010 From: meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU (Olga Meerson) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 08:20:58 -0400 Subject: Samizdat; the Bremen publications In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Re: Bremen. Dear Yelena, Thank you for mentioning both the excellent volume and, arguably, the best collection on Samizdat there is. I would also like to mention its main compiler (at least of the Russian part, but not exclusively), himself a dissident and a an excellent philologist, from the Tartu school. His name is Gabriel Superfin. He is an excellent source but is also worth studying! He is both a representative and a memory repository of a whole epoch. Pasternak may have had a right to say about himself what I still would say about very few people besides Gabriel: Душа моя, печальница О всех в кругу моем, Ты стала усыпальницей Замученных живьем. Тела их бальзамируя, Им посвящая стих, Рыдающею лирою Оплакивая их, Ты в наше время шкурное За совесть и за страх Стоишь могильной урною, Покоящей их прах. Их муки совокупные Тебя склонили ниц. Ты пахнешь пылью трупною Мертвецких и гробниц. Душа моя, скудельница, Всё, виденное здесь, Перемолов, как мельница, Ты превратила в смесь. И дальше перемалывай Всё бывшее со мной, Как сорок лет без малого, В погостный перегной. (B.L. Pasternak, 1956) It is very rare that such pain, passion, and pathos could be due an archivist's daily work, as well and as much as his life. I have long thought Garik's work deserved an homage but didn't know the occasion, for me personally to give it, would be this list. Thank you for the opportunity, colleagues! Thank you, Garik, for being what you are and remembering those you love and respect! (I doubt he will read the entry but that is how I feel: although I know him personally, I would be embarrassed to send him this panegyric as a private letter, alas...) o.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jhl9t at VIRGINIA.EDU Thu Sep 30 14:19:54 2010 From: jhl9t at VIRGINIA.EDU (John Lyles) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 10:19:54 -0400 Subject: 20th Century Russian Works about the Caucasus In-Reply-To: <902238.63589.qm@web113611.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear John, Thank you for this list. The last trip I made to Russia (2009), I picked up some of the pulp that you mention. I also found a film called "Marsh-brocok," translated "The Forced March," which is not on the same level as the films you mention below, but is interesting nonetheless. I am putting together everything people sent me and will send it out to the list shortly. Thanks again! Sincerely, John 2010/9/27 John Hope > Dear John, > > A partial list of 20th-century works on the Caucasian theme would include > Anatolii Pristavkin's "Nochevala tuchka zolotaia" (1987), Vladimir Makanin's > "Kavkazskii plennyi" (1999, if my memory serves), a fairly large body of > pulp dealing with the last two Chechen wars, Boris Akunin's "Smert' > Akhillesa" (1998; at least partially relevant), and at least one story by > Viktor Pelevin ("Papakhi na bashniakh"). If you expand into film you'll > find Gaidai's "Kavkazskaia plennitsa," Bodrov Sr.'s "Kavkazskii plennik," > Nevzorov's "Chistilishche," Konchalovskii's "Dom durakov," Rogozhkin's > "Blokpost," Balabanov's "Voina," Mikhalkov's "12," and Sokurov's > "Aleksandra," among others. Pretty much all of these have been translated / > subtitled, with the exception of the pulp fiction and the Pelevin story. > > There are also a number of books and articles on the subject. > > --- On Mon, 9/27/10, John Lyles wrote: > > > From: John Lyles > > Subject: [SEELANGS] 20th Century Russian Works about the Caucasus > > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > > Date: Monday, September 27, 2010, 4:17 PM > > Dear All, > > > > Does anyone know of any works of Russian literature from > > the 20th century > > that take place in the Caucasus or deal with Russia's > > presence there? Or > > any works in which Caucasians play a prominent role? > > I can only think of > > Tolstoy's *Hadji Murat* and Iskander's stories, including > > *Sandro from > > Chegem*. I am particularly curious to see how Soviet > > writers treat the > > Caucasus and its place in Russian history. Thank you > > in advance for your > > help. > > > > John Lyles > > University of Virginia > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your > > subscription > > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the > > SEELANGS Web Interface at: > > > > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jhl9t at VIRGINIA.EDU Thu Sep 30 14:27:44 2010 From: jhl9t at VIRGINIA.EDU (John Lyles) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 10:27:44 -0400 Subject: 20th Century works about the Caucasus - list Message-ID: Dear All, Thank you to everyone who replied with contemporary Russian works about the Caucasus. I had suspected that there were far fewer works on this subject from Soviet times, and the responses I have gotten confirmed that. I will continue researching and see what I can come up with. In the meantime, here is a compiled list of all the replies I received, in case anyone else is interested. Thanks again! John *Literature* *Appearing in GLAS* Makanin's "Captives of the Caucasus" (in CAPTIVES); Arkady Babchenko's "Argun" (in War&Peace); Denis Butov's "Five Days of War" (in War&Peace); Alan Cherchesov's novel Requiem for the Living; Julia Latynina's Niyazbek (in War&Peace); Gulla Khirachev's short novel Salam, Dalgat (in Squaring the Circle); Arslan Khasavov's Braguny Story (also in Squaring the Circle) *Appearing in "Chtenia: Readings from Russia" * "To the Caucasus" = a section devoted to contemporary stories about the Caucasus German Sadulaev’s *I Am a Chechen* (to be released) Babchenko’s “Alkhan-Iurt”, translated into English as a “Soldier's Story.” Anatolii Pristavkin's "Nochevala tuchka zolotaia" (1987), Vladimir Makanin's "Kavkazskii plennyi" (1999, if my memory serves) Boris Akunin's "Smert' Akhillesa" (1998; at least partially relevant) Viktor Pelevin ("Papakhi na bashniakh"). Pristavkin, “The Inseparable Twins” Charskaia, multiple works Makanin’s “Asan” “Fun and Fortune in Georgia,” appearing in Gazeta Kopeika *Georgian Literature* "Home, and Home Again" by emigre Georgian writers George and Helen Papashvily *British Literature* Fitzroy Maclean's 20th century travelogue "To Caucasus, the End of the Earth" *Films* Gaidai's "Kavkazskaia plennitsa," Bodrov Sr.'s "Kavkazskii plennik," Nevzorov's "Chistilishche," Konchalovskii's "Dom durakov," Rogozhkin's "Blokpost," Balabanov's "Voina," Mikhalkov's "12," and Sokurov's "Aleksandra" ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Thu Sep 30 15:01:49 2010 From: j.dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK (John Dunn) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 16:01:49 +0100 Subject: 20th Century works about the Caucasus - list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As you've left in your list Fitzroy Maclean's book, perhaps I could take the liberty of mentioning another, less well-known travelogue: Negley Farson, Caucasian Journey, The Travel Book Club, London, 1952. The book, though written in 1950, describes a journey across the North-West Caucasus made in 1929. John Dunn. ________________________________________ From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of John Lyles [jhl9t at VIRGINIA.EDU] Sent: 30 September 2010 16:27 To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Subject: [SEELANGS] 20th Century works about the Caucasus - list Dear All, Thank you to everyone who replied with contemporary Russian works about the Caucasus. I had suspected that there were far fewer works on this subject from Soviet times, and the responses I have gotten confirmed that. I will continue researching and see what I can come up with. In the meantime, here is a compiled list of all the replies I received, in case anyone else is interested. Thanks again! John <......> *British Literature* Fitzroy Maclean's 20th century travelogue "To Caucasus, the End of the Earth" <......> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From slavicre at UOTTAWA.CA Thu Sep 30 16:22:13 2010 From: slavicre at UOTTAWA.CA (slavicre at UOTTAWA.CA) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 12:22:13 -0400 Subject: Publication of Sofia Andreevna Tolstaya's "My life" Message-ID: On behalf of the Slavic Research Group at the University of Ottawa and the Ottawa University Press I am happy to report, at long last, the publication of the English translation of Sofia Andreevna Tolstaya's "My life" (earlier announced on SEELANGS on 8 February 2010). It has been translated by John Woodsworth and Arkadi Klioutchanski under my editorship. Apart from Tolstaya's extensive text, this 1250-page volume includes some 4,000 footnotes, a critical introduction by the editor, two indexes, a bibliography (with a section listing all Tolstaya's writings), an outline of the 873 chapters comprising her narrative, an appendix giving the full text of the 39 Russian-language poems cited by the author together with an English verse translation -- as well as 64 pages of colour illustrations. For a description see: http://www.press.uottawa.ca/book/my-life For reviews and further information see: http://uottawapress.blogspot.com/2010_08_01_archive.html The university administration, in collaboration with the University of Ottawa Press, is sponsoring a book-launch extraordinaire on 6 October. Those of you who will be in the Ottawa area on that date are cordially invited to attend. For further details, please see: http://www.openbookontario.com/events/launch_my_life_sofia_andreevna_tolstaya Andrew Donskov, F.R.S.C., Director, Slavic Research Group at the University of Ottawa ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU Thu Sep 30 16:37:29 2010 From: hmclean at BERKELEY.EDU (Hugh McLean) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 09:37:29 -0700 Subject: Mark Twain censorship? In-Reply-To: <842FECD8-93E1-4EF2-AC5B-66C33349FFB7@gmail.com> Message-ID: My late friend Valerij Aleksandrov, a sotrudnik at the Institut mirovoj literatury in Moscow, published several articles on Mark Twain in Russia, though I think mostly 19th and early 20th-century contacts. Unfortunately, I don't have the references; perhaps they can be obtained with some search engine. The Mark Twain archive is housed here at Berkeley, and they might possibly be able to help you. The director's address is hirst at library.berkeley.edu I recall an amusing tidbit. In V. Kataev's 5-year-plan novel Vremja vpered! there is a reference to "tvenovskie babushki." The translator did not understand the reference and the translation was published with a mysterious "Tvenov grandmothers" left unexplained. > Dear list members, > > I wonder if anybody knows whether Mark Twain was ever censored in the Soviet Union or how I might find out? > > Many thanks, > > Yelena Kalinsky > > PhD candidate, > Rutgers > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From publikationsreferat at OSTEUROPA.UNI-BREMEN.DE Thu Sep 30 16:45:59 2010 From: publikationsreferat at OSTEUROPA.UNI-BREMEN.DE (Publikationsreferat (Matthias Neumann)) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 18:45:59 +0200 Subject: Samizdat [was: Mark Twain censorship?] Message-ID: Dear SEELANGers, the Research Centre for East European Studies at the University of Bremen (Forschungsstelle Osteuropa) is selling Samizdat. Alternative Kultur in Zentral-und Osteuropa: Die 60er bis 80er Jahre (Bremen: Edition Temmen, 2000) for five Euro plus p&p. There is a short description of the book here (in German): http://www.forschungsstelle.uni-bremen.de/index.php?option=com_content&view= article&id=298%3Abd-8-samizdat-alternative-kultur-in-zentral-und-osteuropa&c atid=14%3Adokumentationen&Itemid=66&lang=de (the price of 35,90 Euros is the booksellers' price, we offer remaining copies for five Euros). Furthermore, we have published "Das Archiv der Forschungsstelle Osteuropa" (April 2009, ISBN-13: 978-3898219839, 79,90 Euros), an overview of the archive of Forschungsstelle Osteuropa, which can be purchased directly from the publisher via this link: http://www.ibidemverlag.de/product_info.php?info=p571_das-archiv-der-forschu ngsstelle-osteuropa.html&&language=en or via amazon.co.uk or amazon.de. We would also like to draw your attention to the following German-language working papers dealing with aspects of Samizdat which can be downloaded free of charge from our website: No. 106: Florian Peters: "Das große Abenteuer ihres Lebens". Geschichtsbilder und Symbolik der Armia Krajowa und des Warschauer Aufstandes im polnischen "Zweiten Umlauf" (http://www.forschungsstelle.uni-bremen.de/images/stories/pdf/ap/fsoap106.pd f). Bremen, December 2009, 73 p. No. 100: Karoline von Graevenitz: Die "Untergrunduniversität" der Prager Bohemisten. Ein Fallbeispiel für Parallekultur in der "normalisierten" ČSSR (http://www.forschungsstelle.uni-bremen.de/images/stories/pdf/ap/fsoap100.pd f) Bremen, November 2008, 117 p. No. 96: Wolfgang Schlott: Und die Krähe trägt ein rotes Sternchen. Die politische Karikatur im polnischen Untergrund der Jahre 1981 bis 1989 Bremen, September 2008, 34 p. (http://www.forschungsstelle.uni-bremen.de/images/stories/pdf/ap/fsoAP96.pdf ) No. 95: Forschungsstelle Osteuropa an der Universität Bremen (Hg.): "Das Andere Osteuropa von den 1960er bis zu den 1980er Jahren". Berichte zur Forschungs- und Quellenlage Bremen, Mai 2008, 106 p. (http://www.forschungsstelle.uni-bremen.de/images/stories/pdf/ap/fsoAP95.pdf ) No. 82: Valentina Parisi: Das Buch verlassen: Lev Rubinstejns Künstlerbücher (http://www.forschungsstelle.uni-bremen.de/images/stories/pdf/ap/fsoAP82.pdf ) Bremen, Juni 2007, 35 p. No. 78: Julia Scharf: Das Archiv ist die Kunst. Verfahren der textuellen Selbstreproduktion im Moskauer Konzeptualismus Bremen, Dezember 2006, 54 p. (http://www.forschungsstelle.uni-bremen.de/images/stories/pdf/ap/fsoAP78.pdf ) No. 58: Katja Claus Die Entstehung der "Zweiten Kultur" in Leningrad Am Beispiel der Zeitschrift "Casy" (1976-1990) (http://www.forschungsstelle.uni-bremen.de/images/stories/pdf/ap/fsoAP58.pdf ) Bremen, März 2004, 35 p. No. 48: Wolfgang Schlott: Pilsudski-Kult. die Wiedergeburt einer charismatischen Persönlichkeit in der Solidarnosc-Ära (1980-1989), Bremen August 2003, 35 p. (http://www.forschungsstelle.uni-bremen.de/images/stories/pdf/ap/fsoAP48.pdf ) No. 39: Heidrun Hamersky und Wolfgang Schlott: Buchstabenerotik auf einem Archipel des kreativen Widerstandes. Zu Echo und Rezeption der Ausstellung "Samizdat. Alternative Kultur in Zentral- und Osteuropa - Die 60er bis 80er Jahre" in der nationalen und internationalen Presse, Bremen September 2002, 33 p. (http://www.forschungsstelle.uni-bremen.de/images/stories/pdf/ap/fsoAP39.pdf ) Best wishes, Matthias Neumann Publikationsreferat / Publications Department Forschungsstelle Osteuropa an der Universität Bremen / Research Centre for East European Studies at the University of Bremen Klagenfurter Str. 3 28359 Bremen Germany fsopr at uni-bremen.de www.forschungsstelle.uni-bremen.de www.laender-analysen.de -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] Im Auftrag von Yelena Kalinsky Gesendet: Donnerstag, 30. September 2010 13:51 An: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Betreff: Re: [SEELANGS] Samizdat [was: Mark Twain censorship?] Dear Simon, If you read German, take a look at Samizdat. Alternative Kultur in Zentral- und Osteuropa: Die 60er bis 80er Jahre (Bremen: Edition Temmen, 2000). It was published by the Forschungsstelle Osteuropa in Bremen, which houses an excellent collection of samizdat materials from Central and Eastern Europe. The book also reproduces many objects from the archive, so even if you don't read German, you can see what samizdat materials actually looked like. best, Yelena Kalinsky PhD candidate Rutgers University On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 6:58 AM, Simon Beattie wrote: > Talking of banned books, can anyone recommend a good introduction > to/history > of samizdat? > > Thanks. > > Simon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list > [mailto:SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Tim West > Sent: 29 September 2010 15:40 > To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Mark Twain censorship? > > Yelena, > > Censorship in Soviet Literature, 1917-1991 (Herman Ermolaev) deals > exclusively > with Soviet writers, but it has a great bibliography that you may find > helpful. > > Tim West > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From irybalsky at AD-ART.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Sep 30 17:24:28 2010 From: irybalsky at AD-ART.RUTGERS.EDU (Irene Rybalsky) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 12:24:28 -0500 Subject: "The Desert of Forbidden Art" film screening and reception at the Zimmerli Art Museum Message-ID: Zimmerli Art Museum at Rutgers University The Desert of Forbidden Art A documentary film by Amanda Pope and Tchavdar Georgiev Date of the event: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 Venue: Zimmerli Art Museum. Rutgers University, 71 Hamilton Street, New Brunswick, New Jersey 08901 Description: How does art survive in a time of oppression? During Soviet rule, artists who stayed true to their vision were imprisoned or executed. Their plight inspired the Russian painter, archeologist and collector Igor Savitsky, who daringly rescued 40,000 fellow artists' works and created a museum in Uzbekistan's desert – far from the watchful eyes of the KGB. The Nukus Museum of Art (in full, The State Art Museum of the Republic of Karakalpakstan, named after I.V. Savitsky) has been described as "one of the most remarkable collections of 20th century Russian art." It is located in one of the world's poorest regions, yet holds paintings that are worth millions today, including those by Russian avant-garde artists. The Zimmerli Art Museum offers a screening of the film on the Nukus Museum of Art in conjunction with a visit of Savitsky’s successor and the museum’s current director, Marinika Babanazarova. After the film the audience will have an opportunity to discuss the film with Ms. Babanazarova. Amanda Pope is Associate Professor in University of Southern California School of Cinematic Arts. Pope received her B.A. from Wellesley College and has 20- year background in writing, producing, directing and editing documentary, dramatic and advocacy programs. Amanda Pope’s award-winning documentaries include: Jackson Pollock Portrait, Stages: Houseman Directs Lear and Cities for People, all aired on PBS. Tchavdar Georgiev is a graduate of the University of Southern California School of Cinematic Arts and holds an undergraduate degree from The School of the Art Institute of Chicago. He has edited a number of award-winning fiction and non-fiction films as well as television programming for HBO, PBS, History Channel, National Geographic, Channel 1 Russia and MTV Russia. The Desert of Forbidden Art won the Cine Golden Eagle Award and Best Documentary at the Palm Beach International Film Festival and will be broadcast on PBS Independent Lens in 2011. Outline of the event: 5:30 – 6:15 Reception 6:15 – 6:20 Introduction 6:20 – 7: 40 Film screening 7:40 – 8:00 Q&A section RSVP to irybalsky at ad-art.rutgers.edu Parking: Free parking is available immediately behind the museum and in the Kirkpatrick Chapel lot across from the Zimmerli (entrance is located at the corner of George and Somerset Streets). Metered parking is available on the street. Special arrangements: Bus from NYC and back. Bus leaves at 4:00pm from Penn Station, NY (by the green awning: 31st Street between 7th & 8th Avenues). Return trip: bus leaves at 8:15pm from Zimmerli Art Museum. Fee is $15 per person with advance reservations (http://www.zimmerlimuseum.rutgers.edu/file/Credit_card_payment_form_for_1 0-13-10.pdf); $20 on location if space is available. Free passes to the museum will be distributed on the bus. Program is free with general museum admission. Admission is FREE to members, children under 18, and Rutgers students, faculty, and stuff with valid ID. This program is supported by the Avenir Foundation Endowment Fund. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rifkin at TCNJ.EDU Thu Sep 30 17:38:17 2010 From: rifkin at TCNJ.EDU (Benjamin Rifkin) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 13:38:17 -0400 Subject: Help finding a film Message-ID: Dear SEELANGers: I'm looking to purchase a copy (on DVD or VHS, but must be NTSC format) of Aleksandr Mitta's film Skaz pro to, kak tsar' Petr arapa zhenil If anyone can direct me to a source that has it in stock, I'd much appreciate it. With thanks, Ben Rifkin The College of New Jersey ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From icehouse2626 at YAHOO.COM Thu Sep 30 18:28:07 2010 From: icehouse2626 at YAHOO.COM (Francesca) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 11:28:07 -0700 Subject: Help finding a film In-Reply-To: <404D1185-E326-4274-9647-DE149CE95CA9@tcnj.edu> Message-ID: Dear Benjamin,  I don't know if you can download this one, but you can watch it online if you get a subscription. http://etvnet.com/skaz-pro-to-kak-tsar-petr-arapa-zhenil/307894/ thanks, Dina --- On Thu, 9/30/10, Benjamin Rifkin wrote: From: Benjamin Rifkin Subject: [SEELANGS] Help finding a film To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Date: Thursday, September 30, 2010, 1:38 PM Dear SEELANGers: I'm looking to purchase a copy (on DVD or VHS, but must be NTSC format) of Aleksandr Mitta's film Skaz pro to, kak tsar' Petr arapa zhenil If anyone can direct me to a source that has it in stock, I'd much appreciate it. With thanks, Ben Rifkin The College of New Jersey ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at:                    http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From brewerm at U.LIBRARY.ARIZONA.EDU Thu Sep 30 19:14:18 2010 From: brewerm at U.LIBRARY.ARIZONA.EDU (Brewer, Michael) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 19:14:18 +0000 Subject: Help finding a film In-Reply-To: <404D1185-E326-4274-9647-DE149CE95CA9@tcnj.edu> Message-ID: Russian DVD has it. http://www.russiandvd.com/store/product.asp?sku=35635 Michael Brewer University of Arizona Libraries brewerm at u.library.arizona.edu -----Original Message----- From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Benjamin Rifkin Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 10:38 AM To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: [SEELANGS] Help finding a film Dear SEELANGers: I'm looking to purchase a copy (on DVD or VHS, but must be NTSC format) of Aleksandr Mitta's film Skaz pro to, kak tsar' Petr arapa zhenil If anyone can direct me to a source that has it in stock, I'd much appreciate it. With thanks, Ben Rifkin The College of New Jersey ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rifkin at TCNJ.EDU Thu Sep 30 19:36:59 2010 From: rifkin at TCNJ.EDU (Benjamin Rifkin) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:36:59 -0400 Subject: Help finding a film In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry to have bothered everyone. I checked Russiandvd earlier today and it showed up as "nyet v nalichii". Thanks to Michael for finding the page for me. Ben Rifkin The College of New Jersey On Sep 30, 2010, at 3:14 PM, Brewer, Michael wrote: > Russian DVD has it. > > http://www.russiandvd.com/store/product.asp?sku=35635 > > Michael Brewer > University of Arizona Libraries > brewerm at u.library.arizona.edu > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures > list [mailto:SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Benjamin Rifkin > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 10:38 AM > To: SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: [SEELANGS] Help finding a film > > Dear SEELANGers: > > I'm looking to purchase a copy (on DVD or VHS, but must be NTSC > format) of Aleksandr Mitta's film > > Skaz pro to, kak tsar' Petr arapa zhenil > > If anyone can direct me to a source that has it in stock, I'd much > appreciate it. > > With thanks, > > Ben Rifkin > The College of New Jersey > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rrobin at GWU.EDU Thu Sep 30 20:07:12 2010 From: rrobin at GWU.EDU (Richard Robin) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 16:07:12 -0400 Subject: Help finding a film In-Reply-To: <404D1185-E326-4274-9647-DE149CE95CA9@tcnj.edu> Message-ID: It's also available in vkontakte.ru if you have an account that is 70% complete. (Photo, personal, non-private info, etc.) -Rich Robin On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 1:38 PM, Benjamin Rifkin wrote: > Dear SEELANGers: > > I'm looking to purchase a copy (on DVD or VHS, but must be NTSC format) of > Aleksandr Mitta's film > > Skaz pro to, kak tsar' Petr arapa zhenil > > If anyone can direct me to a source that has it in stock, I'd much > appreciate it. > > With thanks, > > Ben Rifkin > The College of New Jersey > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription > options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Richard M. Robin Director Russian Language Program The George Washington University Washington, DC 20052 202-994-7081 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK Thu Sep 30 21:15:11 2010 From: Alexandra.Smith at ED.AC.UK (Alexandra Smith) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:15:11 +0100 Subject: Samizdat -- a few TV programmes that feature Gorbanevskya In-Reply-To: <01b201cb6096$9eae3910$dc0aab30$@co.uk> Message-ID: Dear Simon, In addition to the list of books and articles that I've sent earlier, I would like to draw your attention to a few TV programmes that feature Natalia Gorbanevskaya, an important political figure associated with the Soviet dissident movement and an excellent poet, translator and editor. See these links: * http://video.yandex.ru/users/mizo4ka-7890tyi/view/34/ * http://rutube.ru/tracks/1242452.html * http://www.5-tv.ru/programs/broadcast/502946/ All best, Alexandra --------------------------------------- Alexandra Smith (PhD, University of London) Reader in Russian Studies Department of European Languages and Cultures School of Languages, Literatures and Cultures The University of Edinburgh David Hume Tower George Square Edinburgh EH8 9JX UK tel. +44-(0)131-6511381 fax: +44- (0)131 -651 -1482 e-mail: Alexandra.Smith at ed.ac.uk -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription options, and more. Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at: http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------