[SEELA NGS] ÏÎ ÓÌ ÏÍÁÌ *ÓÅ Â Å* ÎÏÇÕ v s. ÏÎ ÓÌÏ Í ÁÌ Î ÏÇÕ

[John Dingley]

Hi,

I do not consider John Dunn's suggested translation for "On slomal sebe
nogu" as "He went and broke his leg" to be apt. For me in these English
"go and" (where motion is clearly not a factor) constructions, there
is always an accompanying element of irritation, e.g. "He went and died",
which I don't believe is there in the Russian.

Swedish (Danish?, Norwegian?) has the same construction as English,
e.g. "Han gick och dog", the dictionaries considering "go (and)" (here:
"gick (och)", past of "gå) to be mere "padding" ("rent uppfyllnadsord":
Norstedts Svensk Ordbok), without a nuance of irritation.
Kristian Blensenius would not totally agree:

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&biw=1079&bih=658&q=utfyllnadsord+%22gick+och+dog%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&fp=af35a2ce7494df89

John Dingley

Quoting John Dunn <John.Dunn at GLASGOW.AC.UK>:

> It occurs to me that another translation of the original phrase might be:
>
> I went and broke my leg.
>
> Presumably the question of intention is unlikely to be relevant with this
> particular phrase, but might be with other verbs and/or parts of the body.
>
> I have often used Google myself as a quick and easy means of establishing
> usages, but I have found it less helpful than might be expected.  The
> statistical data are particularly problematic: if you plough through the
> different pages, you soon come across what are in effect repetitions, and the
> examples tend to come from what (to me, at least) is a surprisingly limited
> range of sources.  And I would hesitate to call Google a corpus: the criteria
> for selection are for the user (if not the insides of Google's computers) not
> really transparent and are from the language point of view effectively
> different for each search.  To continue in the vein of finding useful things
> for other people to do, there may well be a paper to be written on the
> precise nature of the language data that Google offers and how these data are
> to be interpreted.
>
> John Dunn.
> ________________________________________
> From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list
> [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Alina Israeli [aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU]
> Sent: 20 January 2011 16:06
> To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] [SEELA NGS] ÏÎ ÓÌ ÏÍÁÌ  *ÓÅÂ  Å* ÎÏÇÕ v  s. ÏÎ ÓÌÏ Í
> ÁÌ Î ÏÇÕ
>
> The way you put questions would make a good research paper for a
> graduate student who would have to spend a year or two in the field,
> and look if there are gender/regional/class/age differences.
>
> The current data suggests that in the 19th century they predominantly
> used "sebe" and in the 20th predominantly without.
>
> I doubt this is a word that could have any gender based distinction in
> the usage. But one never knows. Send you grad students.
>
> AI
>
> Jan 20, 2011, × 5:23 AM, anne marie devlin ÎÁÐÉÓÁÌ(Á):
>
> > Somehow, I don't think that raw statistical data on frequency of use
> > gives the answer.  What we need to know is in which contexts they
> > are used.  "ÏÎÁ ÓÌÏÍÁÌÁ ÎÏÇÕ" may be 30 times more frequent;
> > however, "Ñ ÓÌÏÍÁÌÁ ÓÅÂÅ ÎÏÇÕ" is still present, so we need to ask
> > in which social context is ÓÅÂÅ added. Is it found in written or
> > spoken data?, is it particular to a region?, is it gender-based/age-
> > based/class-based?. Is it a formal/informal situation. Is the
> > speaker high/low/equal status to the interlocutor?
> > I'm also presuming that the google corpus is a corpus of written
> > data, and written and spoken data are often not comparable
> > AM
> >
>
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