Analogs of Vysotsky - IV

Tue Feb 11 14:56:06 UTC 2014

Dear Yevgeny,

I'm sorry, I just don't know Vysotsky's songs well enough to participate in this discussion.
What I tried to say is that he was not a hero for me because he was not a good musician.

Cheers,
Alexei

-----Original Message-----
From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Yevgeniy Slivkin
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 8:59 PM
To: SEELANGS at LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Analogs of Vysotsky - IV

Dear Alexei,

It is the same as to say that a Russian poem can't  be translated into English, French or German. Yet the world practice of poetic translation proves that it can. With some losses and same gains it can!
This discussion is about finding a cultural equivalent to Vladimir Vysotsky, that is to "translate" Vysotsky in the cultural sense of this verb.

>From my point of view Vysotsky is a first rate author of comical songs. Such masterpieces as "Mishka Shifman", "Razgovor pered televizorom, "Tatuirovka", "Lektsiia o mezhdunarodnom polozhenii v vytrezvitele", and some others  will stay in Russian culture. His war and "criminal" songs are of less importance.  

As for his acting, he is a typical "star" who remains almost the same in each role he plays.  Galileo, Hamlet, Zhiglov are still Vladimir Vysotsky with his powerful stage presence and machismo. That is to say that he is not at all a great actor.  He was an actor of a rather narrow scope, although very charming one.  

Regards,

Yevgeny Slivkin
University of Denver

________________________________________
From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [SEELANGS at LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Alexei Bogdanov [alexei.bogdanov at COLORADO.EDU]
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 6:57 PM
To: SEELANGS at LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Analogs of Vysotsky - IV

This is a very interesting discussion.  I grew up in Moscow in the late 70s where, I'm happy to admit, lots of people listened to Vysotsky's songs.  I did not and I still don't, regardless of the improved sound quality.  I could see his macho charm but I just didn't find in his songs what I needed - MUSIC.  To me, all of his songs sounded the same.  A storyteller, yes.  Composer... sorry, folks.  This was not just me but all of my friends.  I can't remember anyone close to me listening to Vysotsky.  Jethro Tull, Yes, King Crimson, Gentle Giant - and our own Aquarium, of course.  Vysotsky somehow made himself a cult figure among the Russian people that I thought I belonged to but apparently I didn't.

Most importantly for this discussion, I don't think there is even a possibility for an analogous American figure because it was the Soviet Union of the 1960s and 1970s that created Vysotsky.

Alexei Bogdanov
University of Colorado at Boulder

From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list [mailto:SEELANGS at LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Matthew Walker
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 4:55 PM
To: SEELANGS at LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Analogs of Vysotsky - IV

One more comment... I won't argue about the cultural significance of Kurt Cobain and his relation to "grunge," as this obviously isn't the forum for it, nor did I necessarily want to compare him directly to Vysotsky: the question of who wrote better songs or was more impressive in concert is, as I said, always going to be a subjective one. You might loathe him, which I understand, but when I was at MGU as an exchange student in the nineties I also met Russian kids who thought "Heart-Shaped Box" was genius; in short, de gustibus non est disputandum, everybody has their hobby-horse, etc. Who knows, maybe those kids just hadn't listened to enough Vysotsky yet! The point I was trying to make was rather about the difficulty of identifying anyone in US music culture who has this "unlimited" appeal you're looking for. I doubt even Elvis really satisfies this, and any claim he might have to "longevity" has to come with serious qualifications. After Elvis died -- and I think most people are pretty convinced he's dead ;) -- someone asked John Lennon about it, and he chuckled and said something like, "What are you talking about, Elvis died when he joined the army," i.e. long before he got to the White House to pose with Nixon or keeled over from all the prescription drugs at Graceland. More importantly though, I think it wouldn't be an exaggeration to state that most Americans these days respond to Elvis more as the kitsch object of the '68 Comeback special than as an actual musician, and that there are actually significant parts of US music culture that feel absolutely no attachment to Elvis at all--just ask Chuck D.

Best,

Matt Walker

On 2/10/14 1:22 PM, Sentinel76 Astrakhan wrote:
Hello, again.

I would vote for Dylan. One of the original criticisms against this was that Dylan only spoke to the American intelligentsia while Vysotsky's influence was more universal in the USSR. That may be true (although others in this list have written about Dylan's broad influence, with which I agree), but it could be argued that they were both speaking to the same audience. This depends on the definition of "intelligentsia," but if that term is defined broadly as those who are socially and politically conscious, then Vysotsky spoke to the same people. The only difference is that there were many more Soviet citizens into that category than Americans.

I disagree.  An intellectual is an intellectual, and a bum in the street is a bum in the street.  Vysotsky appealed to factory workers, miners, truck drivers, cops, and prisoners in a way that Dylan did not.  I maintain that Cash and especially Marley appealed to these (huge) segments of the society substantially more than Dylan.

I don't think anyone could possibly have had the same influence in America that Vysotsky did in the USSR.

Elvis.  If only he wrote better poetry, Americans would have them their own Vysotsky.  Heck, Lennon came close.

Attention is pulled in too many different directions over here (but it's fun to hear everyone argue for their favorites!). I don't mean this as an insult, but there's a reason why there are 8-10 American/British artists on that list and only one Soviet.
That's just not true.  I can bring up Okudzhava, BG, Shevchuk, and Tsoy who are not far behind Cash, Dylan, and Cobain in terms of their impact (if at all).  And, speaking of arguing their favorites:
But the most appropriate comparison is actually Eddie Vedder and Pearl Jam.

You clearly let your personal tastes carry you away.  PJ's appeal was even briefer than Nirvana's.  "Massively popular" is a massive overstatement.
So, I would argue, in terms of his lasting fame, Vysotsky's acting should be considered.

In terms of lasting fame -- absolutely.  But, like I said:  his main two roles had largely a posthumous effect.

But I still believe that there can not possibly be an American /Western equivalent of Vladimir Vysonsky. To truly see his uniqueness we have to look at the context (the Soviet state, the time of stagnation) and recall that Vysotsky was a voice of non-conformity, subversion and protest. None of the American or any Western singers/poets/bards had to deal with anything comparable to the Soviet censorship.

Bob Marley.  In fact, Marley went to far greater distances in "protest" than any of the people we've discussed so far, including Vysotsky.

Vysotsky, btw, was never an open "protester."  He never wrote a song like Marley's "Get up, Stand up."  He never called out for the open protest and was never an open dissident.  All his songs were ultimately about himself, in various (often imaginary) scenarios.  He was the ultimate lone wolf.  Power of One, personified.

Vysotsky's topics and images were truly unique. Just recall his songs "The One Who did not Shoot" (tot, kotoryi ne strelial), Penal Batallions (Shtrafnye batal'ony), Bathhouse (Ban'ka).

They were unique, but these are not the best examples.  For example, one can, without too much stress, imagine "The One Who Didn't Shoot," being written not only by Alexander Galich, but also by Bob Dylan.  I cannot imagine anybody writing "Wolfhunt," "The Ornery Horses," "The Monument," or "History of Illness," that's for sure.

I am still struggling with Marley.  I have listened to several songs of his last night.  He has a totally different vibe from Vysotsky.  He does have a strong message and his words are very resonant, but so far I haven't heard any notable storytelling.  And Vysotsky was, first and foremost, a terrific storyteller.  Marley's words don't seem to carry much of intellectual stimulation, like those of Vysotsky, Dylan, and Cohen.  Plus Marley just sounds too laid back, ya'know?  Vysotsky was all about intensity and attack.

As far as Marley's appeal / impact goes, it seems that I underestimated his popularity.  From talking to different people, it seems like he currently rivals, and possibly surpasses Morrison.  Again, we are talking US/UK, because in the Third World Marley beats everyone into pulp.  But even in America you will not find many kids, of all races and statutes, who would not have heard of Marley.

The only aspect that I don't see anybody rivaling Vysotsky, in the West or in the East, is his intensity and sheer domination.  In the world of thrash metal, maybe (think James Hetfield of Metallica and Phil Anselmo of Pantera), but they are fairly low in the category of "universal listenability" :).

Vadim
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