Ukraine/The Ukraine
Jules Levin
ameliede at EARTHLINK.NET
Sun Jun 22 17:10:54 UTC 2014
On 22.06.2014 8:55, Jennifer L. Wilson wrote:
> "Old guys like me are still coherent enough to switch to
> African-American when speaking to my A-A neighbor, but my neighbor is
> rational enough not to tell me to use only A-A even when speaking to my
> own family members in the privacy of my home."
>
> I will be unsubscribing from this list. I'm very saddened at the
> number of people who said "I agree with Jules" after a comment like
> this. To Jules, how exactly do you refer to African-Americans in the
> privacy of your home?
Dear Jennifer, do you understand the word "hypothetical"??? What about
my statement made you think I was refering to a real African-American
and a real neighbor. Honestly...! Take a course in Rhetoric. Argue
the validity of the analogy, don't take it literally!
Jules Levin
>
> Believe it or not, there are African-Americans in this field, and some
> of us are subscribed to SEELANGS. Though I don't know how much longer
> either of those will be the case if these attitudes persist and are
> supported openly.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Jennifer Wilson
>
> *From:* SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures
> list [SEELANGS at LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Stephanie Briggs
> [sdsures at GMAIL.COM]
> *Sent:* Sunday, June 22, 2014 10:47 AM
> *To:* SEELANGS at LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> *Subject:* Re: [SEELANGS] Ukraine/The Ukraine
>
> Max makes a good point re countries such as "the United Kingdom", "the
> Philippines". I'm agreeing with him on those, because in those cases,
> that is what those countries have chosen to call themselves.
>
> (But isn't the Russian Federation correctly a "federated country", a
> collection of federal objects with different levels of autonomies?
> Please correct me if I'm wrong.)
>
> Here's what he said in full, for reference, south of my signature.
>
> Cheers!
>
>
> *****************************
> ~Stephanie D. (Sures) Briggs
>
> /Shorn Lambs: Hand-Knitted Scarves, Afghans, Throws and Baby Blankets /
> http://shornlambs.etsy.com <http://shornlambs.etsy.com/>
>
> My blog: http://stephaniebriggs.co.uk <http://stephaniebriggs.co.uk/>
> Twitter: @stephbriggsuk
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/stephanie.briggs3
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> "I don't agree with Jules.
>
> Insisting on the right to use the article "the" before the country
> topnym of "Ukraine" in English is willful ignorance.
>
> If you genuinely reflect on the use of topnyms in English and would
> like to abstract a set of general principles or theory, I offer the
> following:
>
>
> For country names, "the" is used for collective entities or
> territories reflecting the use of a political system: "The
> Philippines," "the United Kingdom," "the United States," "the Czech
> Republic," and "the Russian Federation" (even though it isn’t a
> federation).
>
> Use of "the" with a country toponym that doesn’t conform to the
> preceding rule generally indicates de facto allegiance to some sort of
> imperial claim or subordination. "the Ukraine" seems to be the most
> frequent occurrence, but occasionally and to a lesser degree, there
> are occurrences of "the Argentine" and "the Lebanon." (consider the
> usage of the last two during periods of elevated international
> conflict, especially during the 1980s).
>
>
>
>
> On 22 June 2014 13:51, Evgeny Steiner <es9 at soas.ac.uk
> <mailto:es9 at soas.ac.uk>> wrote:
>
> Venerable Colleagues,
>
> These unending debates - V vs. NA - reminded me the previous round
> of, should I call it, (The) Ukrainian linguistic independency,
> when some activists demanded that 'Kiev' in all international maps
> should be changed to 'Kyiv.' Can't resist to self-quote my modest
> (hope not too acrid) remark. It seems after almost eight years it
> still has some sense.
>
> Date: Sunday, October 22, 2006 11:39 pm
> Subject: [SEELANGS] Is Kiev/Kyiv the new acid test for Russo-centrism?
>
>
> Dear all,
>
> Does it mean that “grown up” nations can afford hearing their city
> names
> “distorted” in every way (say, ‘Moscow’, ‘Moskau’, or ‘Mosukuwa’), but
> the world should be overly accommodating to the sentiments of “newly
> liberated” peoples? This interesting application of the Affirmative
> Action might soon provoke certain activists in the academy to demand
> that Jerusalem should be officially named Al-Quds.
>
> Back to Kiev: if the idea is to eradicate the Russian colonial
> linguistic domination, why not to return ad fontes? The first time
> this
> city was mentioned in a written source was in the Hebrew Kievan Letter
> (early 10 c.). It’s not our concern here if this “kahal shel Kiyyov”
> (“the community of Kiev”) consisted of Khazarian or Judean Jews. They
> settled there before the Slavs and called their city in their way.
> Omeljan Pritsak who, with Norman Gelb, published this document
> transliterated the Hebrew letters exactly in this way: ‘Kiyyov’. And,
> after all, two Y together should look even more exclusive!
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 4:18 PM, Josh Wilson <jwilson at sras.org
> <mailto:jwilson at sras.org>> wrote:
>
> Dear Seelangers -
>
> I feel like I'm treading into dangerous waters here - but I'm
> genuinely
> curious...
>
> Does anyone know if there have been studies on v/na usage
> inside Ukraine?
>
> I've met Ukrainians (on two occasions) that actually use "na."
> They were
> from Crimea and East Ukraine, and both stated that it was not
> uncommon in
> their view for Ukrainian citizens to use the construction.
> Arguments for
> continuing the use of "na" included 1) that's the way it's
> always been
> (granted, which is a flawed argument) and 2) it recalls
> Ukraine's "great
> Soviet past."
>
> Obviously these are not the habits and opinions of all
> Ukrainians, but
> knowing that Soviet nostalgia is fairly common in many places
> of the former
> USSR, I would be interested to know just how widespread it is
> in Ukraine and
> how this might affect language use there (and how much
> diversity in this
> remains in Ukraine), should anyone know of such a study....
>
> Miru mir,
>
>
>
> Josh Wilson
> Assistant Director
> The School of Russian and Asian Studies
> Editor in Chief
> Vestnik, The Journal of Russian and Asian Studies
> SRAS.org
> jwilson at sras.org <mailto:jwilson at sras.org>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: SEELANGS: Slavic & East European Languages and
> Literatures list
> [mailto:SEELANGS at LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> <mailto:SEELANGS at LISTSERV.UA.EDU>] On Behalf Of Paul B. Gallagher
> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 5:56 PM
> To: SEELANGS at LISTSERV.UA.EDU <mailto:SEELANGS at LISTSERV.UA.EDU>
> Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Ukraine/The Ukraine
>
> anne marie devlin wrote:
>
> > Dear Seelangers
> >
> > Would any of you happen to know when 'The Ukraine'
> officially became
> > known as 'Ukraine' in English? I presume sometime after
> 1993, but
> > would be very grateful for precise information on this as I
> can't seem
> > to find it anywhere.
>
> Since there is no "académie anglaise" or equivalent, everyone
> pretty much
> does as they please; there is no "official" English.
>
> Of course, you can make up your own definition by setting some
> organization
> as your standard. E.g., "since xx.xx.xxxx, the U.S. State
> Department has
> dropped the article." That makes it much easier to do the
> research.
>
> This article may be of use in that research:
> <http://www.ukrweekly.com/old/archive/2006/460614.shtml>
>
> --
> War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.
> --
> Paul B. Gallagher
> pbg translations, inc.
> "Russian Translations That Read Like Originals"
> http://pbg-translations.com
>
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>
>
>
> --
> Professor Evgeny Steiner
> Senior Research Associate
> Sainsbury Institute for the Study of Japanese Arts and Cultures
> SOAS, University of London
> Brunei Gallery, B401
> Russell Square
> London WC1H 0XG
> United Kingdom
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