From John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU Tue May 11 19:47:33 1999 From: John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:47:33 -0600 Subject: 10.720, Qs: Proximate/obviative, ... In-Reply-To: <199905111528.LAA06706@linguistlist.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 May 1999, Wayles Browne wrote to Linguist: > A European colleague inquires: > > As is well known, some languages, notably some American Indian > languages, discriminate two kinds of verbal third person, namely the > proximate and the obviative. One can compare the Latin iste vir and > ille vir 'that man'. > > A constructed Latin example would be iste vir curri-X versus ille vir > curri-Y, for 'that man run-s', where X and Y represent different > desinences on the finite verb. > > What happens if the proximate and the obviative are coordinated within > the subject NP? Does the finite verb take the desinence corresponding > to the proximate or to the obviative? I refer again to the theoretical > Latin example: iste vir et ille vir curri-Z; what shape does -Z take? > > What category wins if the subject contains the proximate/obviative AND > the first or the second person? Latin: iste vir et ego curri-Z; ille > vir et tu curri-Z. > > Is the proximate or the obviative the less marked category of the two? > > Please answer me directly at ewb2 at cornell.edu and I will pass answers > on (and summarize them for the list, should there be enough). I'm not an Algonquianist, but I can answer from the standpoint of the Siouan language Omaha-Ponca. OP is part of the Dhegiha dialect complex, which with the Dakotan dialects ("Sioux"), Winnebago, and the Ioway-Otoe-Missouria complex make up Mississippi Valley Siouan. In OP, the MV plural marker *=(a)pi > =(a)i ~ =(a)bi, a verbal enclitic, marks not only the first person, second person, and third person plurals of agent and patient, but also the third person singular proximate agent. The other Dhegiha languages do more or less the same with their reflexes of this morpheme. If you consider the implications of using a single morpheme to mark proximate agent and plural you can see that any obviative reference loses out to a proximate reference. Plural and proximate are indistinguishable. However, and here I think what I'm saying may well apply in at least some Algonquian languages, it's probably somewhat misleading to think in terms of iste and ille or English devices like 'the former' vs. 'the latter' or 'this one' vs. 'that one' or even 'he (the male)' vs. 'she (the female)' when considering proximate vs. obviative. It's more of a matter of attention focus or foregrounding: 'the one we're attending to' vs. 'another or others'. As soon as you focus to any extent on 'another', it becomes 'the one we're attending to'. In short, the opposition is between 'the proximate(s)' and 'obviatives'. 'The former' and 'the latter' are probably both proximate, as are 'he' and 'she' normally. It would be pragmatically bizarre to yoke the proximate reference with an obviative one in the same grammtical role. However, in a manner of speaking, the function of the Siouan plural is, in fact, that of an augment, rather than a plural. It signifies 'and others'. So in a sense it does yoke the proximate with obviatives. This is particularly obvious in Winnebago, where both the first person and the inclusive person markers can be combined with =(a)wi. In Dakotan the first person cannot take =(a)pi, but the inclusive can, while in Dhegiha things are like Dakotan, but the unpluralized inclusive is rare, so matters are verging on the inclusive requiring the plural marker and functioning as a pure plural. I suppose one could think of the plural or augment marking proximate by the expedient of implying others not attended to, though I don't usually think of it this way. Another thing to notice is that OP, in effect, requires the object to be obviative. There is no way to combine an obviative agent (subject) with a proximate patient (object) in a transitive verb. Any occurence of the plural/proximate marker indicates that the subject is proximate or that the subject or object is plural. Algonquian languages manage this with an inverse marker, which indicates that the application of obviation marking is reversed from the expected. OP lacks an inverse marker. The OP obviative pattern has a lot in common with the Algonquian second obviative, a system found mainly in the Fox-Kickapoo group. Interestingly, speakers of Kickapoo and OP both agree in construing (second) obviatives out of context as implying that the action was at the behest of another or not actually witnessed by the reporter. Actually, I'm not aware of a language with a morphologized former/latter or referenceA/referenceB pronominal opposition. I'm not sure if this is more than chance, but I tend to suspect not. Multiple reference systems tend to settle on sex gender or noun classes, which are typically shape/posture systems. OP has a scheme like the latter, but it is reflected only in the definite article and certain auxiliaries that are morphologically identical with the definite article. Interestingly, the progressive, one of the forms marked with auxiliaries like this, omits the plural marking enclitic. It does mark obviation, however, by using "object" forms of the article with the obviative subject and as auxiliaries. This pattern also occurs with articles in verb categories that use the plural marker. From John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU Fri May 14 06:33:22 1999 From: John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 00:33:22 -0600 Subject: (In)dependent body parts in Dakotan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, Robert L. Rankin wrote: > I noticed a couple of years ago that a number of Siouan languages split > their inalienably possessed nouns in the 1st sing. into a group with a > reflex of ma- and a group with a reflex of mi- (Crow ba-/bi-, Mandan > ma-/mi-, etc.). The interesting thing is that there does NOT seem to be > any semantic congruity from language to language in the groups of nouns > that take one over the other prefix. And if there were a semantic split > in the 1st person, why not in the 2nd person? For what it's worth there is a small opposition in the first person possessive in Dhegiha (Omaha-Ponca). It doesn't involve vowels, but it is an opposition in the first person, and it might shed some light on the mechanics of first person oppositions. Essentially, inalienable possession in Omaha-Ponca is restricted to kinship terms. There are some terms that might be construed as kin terms that are alienably possessed, e.g., nu 'man' in the sense 'husband'. The only traces of possession with body parts, etc., are the initial i- in iz^a'z^e 'name', and perhaps iNkhede ~ ikhede 'shoulder', and the frequent occurrence of a fossil wa-, apparently marking originally 'unpossessed', with body parts (wahu 'bone', wahe 'horn') and foodstuffs (wahaba 'ear of corn', wattaNzi 'stalk/plant of corn'). One term, 'dwelling' has an irregular paradigm: Px1 tti' wiwi'tta Px2 tti' dhidhi'tta Px3 e' tti'=i cf. PpaNkka tti 'Ponca lodge' NiN'kkagahi tti 'chief's lodge' This is essentially the alienable pattern, but with the third person in verbal form 'he dwells (there)', etc. With kinship terms the prefixes are normally wi Px1, dhi Px2, i Px3. There is no inclusive form. Instead a first person or second person, generally the latter, is substituted. I am not sure what factors, presumably pragmatic, result in the first person being used instead. Two terms, idha'di 'father', and ihaN' 'mother', are exceptional in having iN Px1, to wit, iNda'di 'my father', and iN'naNhaN 'my mother'. Note that with these stems the first person (and vocative) use alternate stems dadi (vs. 2nd and 3rd adi) and naNhaN (vs. 2nd and 3rd haN). The paradigms here are: Voc dadi'=ha=u (modern m spkg), dadi'=ha (modern f spkg)(formerly either sex speaking) Px1 iNda'di Px2 dhia'di Px3 idha'di (dh is probably historically epenthetic) Voc iN'naNhaN=(ha)u (modern m speaking) iN'naNhaN=ha (modern f speaking) (formerly either sex speaking) Px1 iN'naNhaN Px2 dhihaN' Px3 ihaN' The change from former (c. 1880s) to modern (1900s on) usage in the vocatives occur throughout the kinship system, and a part of a readjustment in the sex of speaker markers that was incipient at the time of Dorsey's work, and is well established in the work of LaFlesche. It appears that Dorsey preferred older, conservative speakers, as LaFlsche and he were, of course, contemporaries. There is one further term that I believe includes a fossilized iN prefix, which is iNs^?a'ge 'elder, old man', often used, of course, as a vocative, though this form is also used in reference. There is some tendency for the first person possessive to appear with with vocatives in Omaha-Ponca. The iN form is identical to the dative variant of the patient pronominal aN + gi => iN 'to me' and might arise from it. That is, perhaps iN-possessives reflect benefactives of verablized noun stems: 'iNda'di 'my father' < 'he is a father to/for me'. Notice that Dakotan mi(N) is amenable to the same analysis. If this analysis is deemed plausible then it might account for one source of variant possessive prefixes. From pustet at babel.Colorado.EDU Fri May 14 09:17:27 1999 From: pustet at babel.Colorado.EDU (regina pustet) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 03:17:27 -0600 Subject: (In)dependent body parts in Dakotan? Message-ID: While compiling a Lakota text collection over the past couple of years, I noticed usages of the possessive markers that struck me as extremely inappropriate from the classical Boas/Deloria perspective. My overall impression is that the system is changing under the influence of English syntax. As for the discourse occurrence of the inalienable nominal possessor prefixes (the ma-/mi- series), we have to keep in mind that they were already relatively marginal when Boas and Deloria were working on the language. Usually, in the Deloria texts as well as today, possession is expressed by means of semantically complex verbal person affixes, which do not differentiate between control and non-control, or whatever the semantic denominator of the Lakota ma-/mi- contrast may be, if there is any. In other words, in statistical terms, the hypothetical contrast is not very salient. In my texts I observed an overwhelming tendency to replace the original possessor affixes with the paradigm of free possessive pronouns (mithawa mine, nithawa your etc.), to the effect that I had just a handful occurrences of affixes of the ma-/mi- type in the texts -- which is not much, given that I have about 350 pages of text. I remember an interesting sentence in which my speaker said something like the doctor examined me, and my heart, my liver, and my blood are all okay. She used a different construction type for each possessed body part she mentions: the mi-affix, verbal affixes, and the free pronoun mithawa mine. All in all, body parts tend to be used with the free pronouns today, or with the verbal possessor affixes, rather than with the ma-/mi- series of affixes. I also explicitly checked the compatibility of various body part lexemes with these affixes, and my speakers were usually reluctant to accept the forms. They prefer the free pronouns in this case -- they probably imitate English syntax (subconsciously, of course). What Im trying to say is that the contrast between ma- and mi- did not play a very dominant role in actual language use in the past, and is about to get entirely obsolete today. From Rood at Uni-Koeln.DE Sun May 16 11:46:27 1999 From: Rood at Uni-Koeln.DE (David Rood) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 13:46:27 +0200 Subject: (In)dependent body parts in Dakotan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: When I tried to work on the Lakhota dictionary a few years ago, I wanted to put the correct possessed form for each noun into the entry for that noun as part of its grammatical information. I found something similar to what Regina found, only more extreme: many body part terms were simply unacceptable when possessed in any construction whatsoever. I would have to be back in Boulder to look at the details, but that surprised me. David David S. Rood Professor of LInguistics Institut fuer Sprachwissenschaft Universitaet zu Koeln D-50923 Koeln email: rood at uni-koeln.de email: rood at colorado.edu From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Sun May 16 18:59:58 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 11:59:58 -0700 Subject: Siouan language programs? Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I am updating my article on Siouan languages and linguistics for the Plains volume of the Handbook of North American Indians (HNAI) being published by the Smithsonian. I've been asked by Ray DeMallie to include, for each Siouan language in the Plains area, information on current programs to teach the language in tribal, public or other schools and institutions. I'll only be able to include a few sentences about language maintenence and revival programs in each case, so massive input isn't needed. If you have information about instruction being offered in the languages you have expertise on, would you be willing to send me a short description of the program(s) including information about institution, enrollment and availablilty of pedagogical materials, plus anything else you deem pertinent. I will be more than happy to note your contribution formally. I can handle the usual grammar, phonology, history, etc. but I'll need help to do this section properly. Thanks in advance. Bob Rankin Dept. of Linguistics University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045-2140 From munro at ucla.edu Sun May 16 17:42:11 1999 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 10:42:11 -0700 Subject: Siouan language programs? Message-ID: Dear Bob, I am working with two sets of pedagogical materials on Assiniboine. One of these is by Doug Parks (currently in the field, so he may not see your note), but I know Ray DeMallie is involved with the project, so he may tell you about these materials, which are being used in classes at Fort Belknap College. I know Doug's goal is to offer a full year of instruction, though currently I think his lessons only go through about a semester. The other set of materials have been developed by Ken Ryan and Bob Fourstar (non-linguist native speakers) for use in classes at Fort Peck College. I received these because one of the two students I'm working through the materials with is the niece of these two gentlemen (who are half-brothers). The material I've seen would probably be for a little longer than a semester, so I imagine that it too might be stretched to a year. As I have learned from both sides, there is some animosity between these two language programs, unfortunately (but as you and I know, probably not surprisingly). I can't provide you with enrollment figures but if you don't have another source for these (from Fort Peck) I could probably ask someone. Let me know if you want this much detail. For your ears only (sensitive, and I assume evaluation is not the goal of your report), it's interesting that there are plusses and minuses to both of these sets of materials. Each of them has different orthographic problems (in my opinion: when you have a language that is quite easy to write in a fully keyboardable practical orthography, why not do this??) -- they use totally incompatible orthographies -- and each has different pedagogical strengths and weaknesses. My two students and I both wish that we could wave a magic wand and develop a joint program with all the good features of both programs. Anyway, hope this is helpful. I have heard that there are also (different) Assiniboine materials being used in Canada, but we haven't seen them. Pam From munro at ucla.edu Sun May 16 17:51:51 1999 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 10:51:51 -0700 Subject: Siouan language programs? Message-ID: Dear Everyone, I really apologize to all of you for sending the message I just sent, which should have gone just to Bob Rankin. I am VERY very grateful for all the help I've gotten from all of you about Assiniboine. Please forgive me. Pam Munro From BARudes at aol.com Sun May 16 18:43:02 1999 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 14:43:02 EDT Subject: Siouan language programs? Message-ID: Bob, Given that your article is for the Plains volume, I assume you do not want information on ongoing programs to teach the Catawba language. (There are currently classes for school-aged children and adults at the Catawba Cultural Center and an informal pre-school program as part of the Head Start program on the reservation.) Let me know if I am wrong and I will send you the information. Blair From pustet at babel.Colorado.EDU Mon May 17 08:45:00 1999 From: pustet at babel.Colorado.EDU (regina pustet) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 02:45:00 -0600 Subject: 10.720, Qs: Proximate/obviative, ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just an afterthought: Of course, the Latin iste - ille contrast is, functionally speaking, by no means comparable to obviation in Algonquian languages. The former implies deixis proper, the latter pragmatic deixis, or discourse perspective. But this functional aspect would, at least theoretically, not preclude the occurrence of coordinated NPs which differ with respect to obviation status. Intuitively, I'd say, something like this is unlikely to occur, but the more I think about it, the more fascinating I find this possibility. However, the STRUCTURAL facts connected with Algonquian obviation/inversion systems probably rule out this possibility. In such a system, marking for discourse perspective is inseparably linked with marking for semantic role - perspective markers cannot be shifted around as freely as demonstratives without affecting the structure of a clause as a whole. In particular, the structure of Algonquian obviation systems basically requires that in a given clause, a proximate and an obviative participant fulfill different semantic roles. However, coordinated NPs, as in the Latin examples, fulfill the same semantic role; and this is where the contradiction lies. But this state of affairs describes the situation for transitive clauses only. Coding restrictions might be a bit more relaxed in intransitive clauses. Very much to my surprise, in Uhlenbeck's Peigan Blackfoot texts I have discovered examples of simple clauses in which the very same participant is coded as a proximate on the verb, but as an obviative on the NP, or vice versa. This is the reason why I'm sympathetic to the idea that it might be possible to play around with obviation markers in coordinated NPs as well, at least in intransitive clauses -- although Im unable to come up an example at this point. R.P. From John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU Mon May 17 08:45:53 1999 From: John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 02:45:53 -0600 Subject: Reply Policy on the Siouan List Message-ID: This might be a good time to remind people that the Siouan List (like a lot of lists) is set so that the specified reply address is the list. There are pros and cons to this, but I've observed in the past that lists that set reply to the sender tend to be very quiet, as all replies go to the original poster, and not to the list. A few general words of advice: When replying to email it's a usually a good idea to glance at the To-field before sending. Of course, my least favorite mailers use for the "send immediately" key some combination that means "skip to end of line" in some other mailer that I have to use a lot. This makes it easy to miss your chance to glance. Of course, who remembers to glance, anyway? In general, be aware that replying might address a letter not to an author, but to a list on which a letter has been posted, or to the original author of something that has been forwarded - which is why it's not wise to forward somebody's letter to make fun of it, or to make fun of a forwarding to a forwarder without checking the To-field carefully. Another ambush can be having a reply go to all recipients of a letter sent to several people, when you only wanted to reply to, say, the original sender. I myself have discovered that some mail programs helpfully add all aliases examined in the address book to the current letter without asking. It can also be risky to blind copy someone a letter, as some mailers permit. Sooner or later you will forward a copy to the wrong person in which the blind copy address is included. Also remember that all email archives are subject to subpoena. This is a principle they keep forgetting at, e.g., Microsoft. For that matter, our archives are public. From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Mon May 17 23:19:32 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 16:19:32 -0700 Subject: 10.720, Qs: Proximate/obviative, ... Message-ID: If I have understood the discourse so far correctly, it might be interesting to look at Muskogean languages. I will not get into details here, since Muskogean isn't Siouan obviously, but in Muskogean languages there are two enclitics which could be described as -t 'proximate' and -n 'obviative'. They have often been described as "subject" and "oblique" suffixes, but, although -t does most often mark grammatical subjects, there are suspicious exceptions. Additionally, the same two morphemes are used to link clauses where they are often said to mark "switch reference". If we treat the two usages as distinct phenomena, their homophony would be the most bizzare of coincidences. If we treat the -t's and -n's as "sames" in both their functions, then one of the few concepts that unites them is obviation. Pam Munro's former student, Heather Hardy, did a paper on this some years back in which she elected to use the terms "central" (for -t) vs. "peripheral" (for -n). The concept is very similar though, as far as I can tell. In any event, those who are interested in obviation as a referent tracking grammatical device, should examine the Muskogean data. Bob Rankin ******************************* regina pustet wrote: > ... this functional aspect would, at least theoretically, not preclude the occurrence of coordinated NPs which differ with respect to obviation status. Intuitively, I'd say, something like this is unlikely to occur, but the more I think about it, the more fascinating I find this possibility. From jggoodtracks at juno.com Tue May 18 03:53:09 1999 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:53:09 -0500 Subject: Siouan language programs? Message-ID: Bob: In regard to your update for the Plains Volume for the Handbook of the NAm by the Smithsonian, follows is a current update on the teaching of Baxoje-Jiwere (Ioway-Otoe/Missouri) languages at this time: Otoe-Missouria Tribe at Red Rock, Oklahoma= 1998. Tony Arkikita perform survey of enrolled speakers of Jiwere identified 6 persons who have semi fluency/ knowledge of language (speaking & comprehension). 4 are still living. 70yoa+. Total fluent speakers (first language)=zero. 1999. Kenneth Black asked to teach evening adult classes. 10-15 attending. Using IO Books I & II as only text. KB says the word/ phrases; students told to write it out as it sounds to them. KB also supplies oral history. Tribe provides class room space, but no monetary, moral support, etc. Class currently suspended as KB tends health concerns. Hope to resume and add Autumn language classes at Headstart via some younger person. KB declines teaching children. Truman Black, OKCity, said to hold class in OKCity. Iowa Tribe of Oklahoma at Perkins, OK= Tribe has hired an interested historian, archivist, (Cultural Preservationist) who has sponcered members to various seminars, museums, etc. in past/ current several years. Previously, it is said that Truman Black offered class instructions (at public school?), but was discontinued as some political persons objected to an enrolled Otoe teaching enrolled Ioways in Ioway area (jurisdiction) [Note: This latter information was given me by several IO individuals. So I am not the original source who shares that note with you.] Iowa Tribe of Kansas/ Nebraska at White Cloud, KS= No classes, no support, no interest by Tribe. Some varied interest by perhaps 12 - 18 known enrolled members pursuing random language learning at own cost & time. Some small cultural grants given these individuals by Kansas Historical Society for various projects, songs, language, crafts, etc. Jimm GT From tleonard at tulsa.com Tue May 18 04:56:07 1999 From: tleonard at tulsa.com (Tleonard) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:56:07 -0500 Subject: Siouan language programs? In-Reply-To: <19990517.225314.-431931.0.jggoodtracks@juno.com> Message-ID: Bob: an update on the j. goodtracks message below.......Frontier School, Red Rock Oklahoma is instituting a new program for Ponca and Otoe language education, begining 09/99, incorporating teaching grammars. Preliminary kick-off is Wednesday, May 19, 1999. Program is funded and has good community participation. More detail to follow. TL At 10:53 PM 5/17/99 -0500, you wrote: >Bob: >In regard to your update for the Plains Volume for the Handbook of the >NAm by the Smithsonian, follows is a current update on the teaching of >Baxoje-Jiwere (Ioway-Otoe/Missouri) languages at this time: > >Otoe-Missouria Tribe at Red Rock, Oklahoma= > 1998. Tony Arkikita perform survey of enrolled speakers of Jiwere >identified 6 persons who have semi fluency/ knowledge of language >(speaking & comprehension). 4 are still living. 70yoa+. Total fluent >speakers (first language)=zero. > 1999. Kenneth Black asked to teach evening adult classes. 10-15 >attending. Using IO Books I & II as only text. KB says the word/ >phrases; students told to write it out as it sounds to them. KB also >supplies oral history. Tribe provides class room space, but no monetary, >moral support, etc. Class currently suspended as KB tends health >concerns. Hope to resume and add Autumn language classes at Headstart >via some younger person. KB declines teaching children. Truman Black, >OKCity, said to hold class in OKCity. > >Iowa Tribe of Oklahoma at Perkins, OK= > Tribe has hired an interested historian, archivist, (Cultural >Preservationist) who has sponcered members to various seminars, museums, >etc. in past/ current several years. Previously, it is said that Truman >Black offered class instructions (at public school?), but was >discontinued as some political persons objected to an enrolled Otoe >teaching enrolled Ioways in Ioway area (jurisdiction) [Note: This latter >information was given me by several IO individuals. So I am not the >original source who shares that note with you.] > >Iowa Tribe of Kansas/ Nebraska at White Cloud, KS= > No classes, no support, no interest by Tribe. Some varied interest by >perhaps 12 - 18 known enrolled members pursuing random language learning >at own cost & time. Some small cultural grants given these individuals >by Kansas Historical Society for various projects, songs, language, >crafts, etc. > >Jimm GT > > > > > From John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU Tue May 18 18:35:26 1999 From: John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 12:35:26 -0600 Subject: Bushotter Files Message-ID: In case anyone is interested, I have the Siouan Archives version of the Bushotter files (rather a mess, I'm afraid, and still in the original Siouan Archives format) up at: http://www.colorado.edu/ling/cesnalps/Projects/SA/saindex.htm Also, the complete Siouan fonts are at: http://www.colorado.edu/ling/cesnalps/Services/ssfonts.htm These urls are in a very preliminary new set of CeSNaLPS web pages. Please don't spend any time browsing them as they are in a horrifying state of disarray, still full of incomplete and incorrect links, and neither complete nor fully edited. From VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA Wed May 19 02:09:45 1999 From: VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA (VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 21:09:45 -0500 Subject: Siouan language programs? Message-ID: > Dear Colleagues, > > I am updating my article on Siouan languages and linguistics for the > Plains volume of the Handbook of North American Indians (HNAI) being > published by the Smithsonian. I've been asked by Ray DeMallie to > include, for each Siouan language in the Plains area, information on > current programs to teach the language in tribal, public or other > schools and institutions. Brandon University at Brandon, Manitoba, Canada, offers an introductory Dakota language course. The instructor is Doris Pratt M Ed., using lesson materials developed at the university for this course. The course is not necessarily offered every year, but at least every second year. There has been some discussion about offering a more advanced course too, but I don't know what decisions, if any, have been made about that. I believe I heard that there were around 30 students in the course last year, but let me try to check on that number before you send it on. Paul From VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA Wed May 19 20:00:50 1999 From: VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA (VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 15:00:50 -0500 Subject: Proximate/obviative Message-ID: > If I have understood the discourse so far correctly, it might be > interesting to look at Muskogean languages. I will not get into deta= > ils > here, since Muskogean isn't Siouan obviously, Likewise I apologize in advance for posting a few comments on Algonquian to the Siouan list. I do so in the hope that the characteristics of the Algonquian obviative may be a help in recognizing similar phenomena elsewhere. > but in Muskogean langua= > ges > there are two enclitics which could be described as -t 'proximate' an= > d > -n 'obviative'. They have often been described as "subject" and > "oblique" suffixes, but, although -t does most often mark grammatical > subjects, there are suspicious exceptions. In many sentences in an Algonquian language, the proximate will be found to translate the nominative and the obviative will translate the accusative of an Indo-European, Semitic, or Uralic language that retains such a case system. There are several differences, though, that reflect the fact that the obviative is really a secondary-third-person indicator rather than a direct-object indicator. First, the obviative indicates a direct object only when another third person, pronoun or noun, is the subject. If the subject is a first- or second-person pronoun, then the proximate forms are used for a direct object. Accusative case forms are, of course, used for all direct objects without regard to the person of the subject. Second, obviatives can be subjects and proximates can be objects when the focus is on the object. The inverse suffix on the verb signals this reversal of more typical roles. The situation certainly resembles the passive formations in some of the nominative/accusative languages except that while the basic object becomes nominative in a passive construction (viewed as a transformation of an active), the basic subject can never become accusative, but must be moved into some other case, such as the instrumental, or become the object of a preposition. Accusatives can't be subjects, but obviatives can. Third, the possession of a third-person possessor must be obviative in Algonquian. In fact, we can certainly imagine a language in which either possessor or possession could be obviative, but Algonquian languages do not offer the option. Obviously possessions in case-system languages are never confined to the accusative case. Furthermore, the third-person possessor itself will be proximate or obviative in Algonquian which certainly contrasts with Indo-European, Semitic, and Uralic languages where there are special genitive case forms, prepositions, or adjectival forms to identify possessors. Paul From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed May 19 20:42:28 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 15:42:28 -0500 Subject: Proximate/obviative In-Reply-To: <01JBDW4X2ERM96VLGH@BrandonU.CA> Message-ID: Paul, and all, Personally, I find the Algonquian comments very enlightening. It isn't easy to find good, consise descriptions of just how it works in Algonquian. We're just starting to see that such a system may be at work in Dhegiha Siouan languages, and any comparisons are helpful at least to me. Voorhis, on Algonquian: > First, the obviative indicates a direct object only when another third > person, pronoun or noun, is the subject. If the subject is a first- or > second-person pronoun, then the proximate forms are used for a direct > object. Second, obviatives can be subjects and proximates can be > objects when the focus is on the object. ... Accusatives can't be > subjects, but obviatives can. Algonquian certainly makes the case especially clearly. I don't think Dhegiha Siouan (or Muskogean for that matter) present evidence that is nearly as unequivocal. But I must say that Siouanists have probably not elicited the right kinds of examples for maximal clarification. I know I didn't. If crucial examples are there in my Kaw data, it's accidental. Paul's given us some things to search for in Dhegiha. There are a number of slightly different referent tracking systems out there, and it's often difficult to know whose definition to try to stretch. :-) Bob From jggoodtracks at juno.com Wed May 19 21:42:01 1999 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 16:42:01 -0500 Subject: Fw: Re: Siouan language programs? Message-ID: UPDATED INFORMATION = MAY 19, 1999 RE: IOWAY TRIBAL PROGRAMING --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: jggoodtracks at juno.com To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:53:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Siouan language programs? Bob: THIS IS A CORRECTED UPDATE In regard to your update for the Plains Volume for the Handbook of the NAm by the Smithsonian: I STAND CORRECTED BY AN INFORM IO ENROLLED MEMEBER IN THAT THE: Iowa Tribe of Oklahoma at Perkins, OK= Tribe has hired an interested historian, archivist, (Cultural Preservationist) THEY ARE INVOLVED IN TNE NAGPRA (N.AM. GRAVES PROTECTION & REPATRIATION ACT (AS PER THEIR WEB PAGE). IT IS SUZZETTE ROGERS, CURATOR FOR THE IOWAY & SAC MUSEUM OF HIGHLAND, KS.... who has sponcered TRIBAL members to various seminars, museums, etc. in past/ current several years. IT IS UNDERSTOOD THAT SHE HOPES TO WORK OUT SOME KIND OF A CULTURAL PROGRAM WITH THE OKLAHOMA IOWAY TRIBE. (AS PER THE UNDERSTANDING OF THIS IO PERSON, WHO HAS ASSISTED HER ON OCCASSION, IN PREVIOUS CULTURAL PROJECTS). Previously, it is said that Truman Black offered class instructions (at public school?), (ETC.) Jimm GT From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Thu May 20 17:25:02 1999 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (SHEA KATHLEEN DORETTE) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:25:02 -0500 Subject: Fw: Re: Siouan language programs? In-Reply-To: <19990519.164203.-431931.5.jggoodtracks@juno.com> Message-ID: Frontier School in Red Rock (K-12) wants to offer both (Iowa-)Oto and (Omaha-)Ponca at the high-school level next fall. The classes have been appoved by the school board and everything and have about 15 eager students signed up for each class, but the problem is that they don't have any teachers, curriculum, or teaching materials. The superintendent heard about my work on Ponca from Parrish Williams, one of my Ponca consultants, who has two great-granddaughters in the school, and asked to meet me. As a result, we decided to get together a group of resource people from among the Poncas and my linguist friends to form a "language committee," which has met a couple of times. (We're concentrating on Ponca, but the Otoe-Missourias also need develop a curriculum. I haven't heard who the Oto teacher will be--possibly Kenneth Black.) I have a problem, in that I'm facing a graduate school deadline for finishing my dissertation and can't afford to get involved in intensive/extensive lesson planning right now, so I've told the school that I can be available as a "consultant." The school will provide classroom space and facilities but expects the Poncas and us other "experts" to develop the curriculum and to come up with any necessary funding to do it. (We're meeting with the tribal council next Monday to talk about this. Apparently, the school district, although very wealthy and reputedly a very good school, due in part to money derived from a nearby power plant, just has money in its budget to pay for books and a curriculum already developed but not for curriculum development. It does have a lot of good computers and an outstanding media, i.e. video, program for high-school students, which could be utilized in the Ponca class.) Alice Anderton, a linguist from Norman who does a weekily t.v. program on Oklahoma Native languages called Wordpath and who heads a non-profit clearinghouse, the Intertribal Wordpath Society, has driven up to attend our committee meetings and has offered to continue to meet once a week with us to develop a plan. She showed us a videotape of a workshop led by Leanne Hinton in Lawton demonstrating the master-apprentice approach to language learning which could be adapted to the Ponca class. Since Ponca doesn't have a standardized writing system at this time, if the language is to be offered in the fall, it would have to be an oral-aural approach initially. The alternative is to start the class in the fall of 2000, which the superintendent is willing to do. Any suggestions from those on the Siouan list about teaching materials, methods, suggestions about ways to deal with the logistics--political or financial, success stories, or anything else would be greatly appreciated! I've already gotten information and input from Catherine Rudin, Carolyn Quintero, and Susan Garzon, who stand ready to help in whatever way they can. Sara Trechter, whose keynote address I heard at the recent WAIL conference, has offered to send me references from the class she teaches on second language acquisition. John Nichols, who was also at the WAIL conference, suggested the intriguing idea of conducting the course something like a fieldmethods course but without much writing, letting the students "discover" the language from the native speakers (about 40 in number, mostly in their 70's and 80's) and perhaps throwing in a little linguistics. Bob Rankin suggested that the ASTP (Army Specialized Training Program) that worked so well during World War II for linguists having to work up teaching materials in a hurry for strategic languages might be useful. Does anyone have any information about this method or know of materials outlining the "template" that was used for developing the ASTP teaching grammars? Again, any suggestions from any of you would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Kathy Shea On Wed, 19 May 1999, Jimm G GoodTracks wrote: > UPDATED INFORMATION = MAY 19, 1999 > RE: IOWAY TRIBAL PROGRAMING > > --------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: jggoodtracks at juno.com > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:53:09 -0500 > Subject: Re: Siouan language programs? > > > Bob: > THIS IS A CORRECTED UPDATE In regard to your update for the Plains Volume > for the Handbook of the NAm by the Smithsonian: > > I STAND CORRECTED BY AN INFORM IO ENROLLED MEMEBER IN THAT THE: > > Iowa Tribe of Oklahoma at Perkins, OK= > Tribe has hired an interested historian, archivist, (Cultural > Preservationist) > THEY ARE INVOLVED IN TNE NAGPRA (N.AM. GRAVES PROTECTION & REPATRIATION > ACT (AS PER THEIR WEB PAGE). > > IT IS SUZZETTE ROGERS, CURATOR FOR THE IOWAY & SAC MUSEUM OF HIGHLAND, > KS.... > who has sponcered TRIBAL members to various seminars, museums, etc. in > past/ current several years. > IT IS UNDERSTOOD THAT SHE HOPES TO WORK OUT SOME KIND OF A CULTURAL > PROGRAM WITH THE OKLAHOMA IOWAY TRIBE. (AS PER THE UNDERSTANDING OF THIS > IO PERSON, WHO HAS ASSISTED HER ON OCCASSION, IN PREVIOUS CULTURAL > PROJECTS). > Previously, it is said that Truman Black offered class instructions (at > public school?), (ETC.) > > Jimm GT > > > > From Rood at Uni-Koeln.DE Fri May 21 06:59:10 1999 From: Rood at Uni-Koeln.DE (David Rood) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 08:59:10 +0200 Subject: incommunicado In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just in case anyone cares, the Univ. of Cologne has a mid-semester vacation next week and I'll be away from my computer. So don't expect me to answer email until May 31 or so. Hope you're all having a happy summer, and that most of you will see each other at the conference in Regina. I'm sorry I won't be there. Best wishes, David David S. Rood Professor of LInguistics Institut fuer Sprachwissenschaft Universitaet zu Koeln D-50923 Koeln email: rood at uni-koeln.de email: rood at colorado.edu From Zylogy at aol.com Mon May 31 21:33:36 1999 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 17:33:36 EDT Subject: Sound symbolism at SSILA Message-ID: Hi, folks. There is the possibility of a session on areal patterning of sound symbolism at the upcoming SSILA meeting in Chicago in January. Are there any Siouanists who think they might like to contribute? Please let me know. Thanks! Sincerely, Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com From Rood at Uni-Koeln.DE Mon May 31 11:45:46 1999 From: Rood at Uni-Koeln.DE (David Rood) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 13:45:46 +0200 Subject: Flying to the Conference? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My most recent experience was a nasty one with the US immigration people in Chicago. They weren't going to let me back in the country because I didn't have either a passport or a birth certificate plus ID. The officer there told me that they were stricter on airline passengers than drivers because the drivers had to be processed so quickly. That was in the summer of 1997. It was definitely the US immigration people who were hassling me. Again, everyone have a good time -- I'm sorry I can't be there. David David S. Rood Professor of LInguistics Institut fuer Sprachwissenschaft Universitaet zu Koeln D-50923 Koeln email: rood at uni-koeln.de email: rood at colorado.edu From John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU Tue May 11 19:47:33 1999 From: John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:47:33 -0600 Subject: 10.720, Qs: Proximate/obviative, ... In-Reply-To: <199905111528.LAA06706@linguistlist.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 May 1999, Wayles Browne wrote to Linguist: > A European colleague inquires: > > As is well known, some languages, notably some American Indian > languages, discriminate two kinds of verbal third person, namely the > proximate and the obviative. One can compare the Latin iste vir and > ille vir 'that man'. > > A constructed Latin example would be iste vir curri-X versus ille vir > curri-Y, for 'that man run-s', where X and Y represent different > desinences on the finite verb. > > What happens if the proximate and the obviative are coordinated within > the subject NP? Does the finite verb take the desinence corresponding > to the proximate or to the obviative? I refer again to the theoretical > Latin example: iste vir et ille vir curri-Z; what shape does -Z take? > > What category wins if the subject contains the proximate/obviative AND > the first or the second person? Latin: iste vir et ego curri-Z; ille > vir et tu curri-Z. > > Is the proximate or the obviative the less marked category of the two? > > Please answer me directly at ewb2 at cornell.edu and I will pass answers > on (and summarize them for the list, should there be enough). I'm not an Algonquianist, but I can answer from the standpoint of the Siouan language Omaha-Ponca. OP is part of the Dhegiha dialect complex, which with the Dakotan dialects ("Sioux"), Winnebago, and the Ioway-Otoe-Missouria complex make up Mississippi Valley Siouan. In OP, the MV plural marker *=(a)pi > =(a)i ~ =(a)bi, a verbal enclitic, marks not only the first person, second person, and third person plurals of agent and patient, but also the third person singular proximate agent. The other Dhegiha languages do more or less the same with their reflexes of this morpheme. If you consider the implications of using a single morpheme to mark proximate agent and plural you can see that any obviative reference loses out to a proximate reference. Plural and proximate are indistinguishable. However, and here I think what I'm saying may well apply in at least some Algonquian languages, it's probably somewhat misleading to think in terms of iste and ille or English devices like 'the former' vs. 'the latter' or 'this one' vs. 'that one' or even 'he (the male)' vs. 'she (the female)' when considering proximate vs. obviative. It's more of a matter of attention focus or foregrounding: 'the one we're attending to' vs. 'another or others'. As soon as you focus to any extent on 'another', it becomes 'the one we're attending to'. In short, the opposition is between 'the proximate(s)' and 'obviatives'. 'The former' and 'the latter' are probably both proximate, as are 'he' and 'she' normally. It would be pragmatically bizarre to yoke the proximate reference with an obviative one in the same grammtical role. However, in a manner of speaking, the function of the Siouan plural is, in fact, that of an augment, rather than a plural. It signifies 'and others'. So in a sense it does yoke the proximate with obviatives. This is particularly obvious in Winnebago, where both the first person and the inclusive person markers can be combined with =(a)wi. In Dakotan the first person cannot take =(a)pi, but the inclusive can, while in Dhegiha things are like Dakotan, but the unpluralized inclusive is rare, so matters are verging on the inclusive requiring the plural marker and functioning as a pure plural. I suppose one could think of the plural or augment marking proximate by the expedient of implying others not attended to, though I don't usually think of it this way. Another thing to notice is that OP, in effect, requires the object to be obviative. There is no way to combine an obviative agent (subject) with a proximate patient (object) in a transitive verb. Any occurence of the plural/proximate marker indicates that the subject is proximate or that the subject or object is plural. Algonquian languages manage this with an inverse marker, which indicates that the application of obviation marking is reversed from the expected. OP lacks an inverse marker. The OP obviative pattern has a lot in common with the Algonquian second obviative, a system found mainly in the Fox-Kickapoo group. Interestingly, speakers of Kickapoo and OP both agree in construing (second) obviatives out of context as implying that the action was at the behest of another or not actually witnessed by the reporter. Actually, I'm not aware of a language with a morphologized former/latter or referenceA/referenceB pronominal opposition. I'm not sure if this is more than chance, but I tend to suspect not. Multiple reference systems tend to settle on sex gender or noun classes, which are typically shape/posture systems. OP has a scheme like the latter, but it is reflected only in the definite article and certain auxiliaries that are morphologically identical with the definite article. Interestingly, the progressive, one of the forms marked with auxiliaries like this, omits the plural marking enclitic. It does mark obviation, however, by using "object" forms of the article with the obviative subject and as auxiliaries. This pattern also occurs with articles in verb categories that use the plural marker. From John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU Fri May 14 06:33:22 1999 From: John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 00:33:22 -0600 Subject: (In)dependent body parts in Dakotan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, Robert L. Rankin wrote: > I noticed a couple of years ago that a number of Siouan languages split > their inalienably possessed nouns in the 1st sing. into a group with a > reflex of ma- and a group with a reflex of mi- (Crow ba-/bi-, Mandan > ma-/mi-, etc.). The interesting thing is that there does NOT seem to be > any semantic congruity from language to language in the groups of nouns > that take one over the other prefix. And if there were a semantic split > in the 1st person, why not in the 2nd person? For what it's worth there is a small opposition in the first person possessive in Dhegiha (Omaha-Ponca). It doesn't involve vowels, but it is an opposition in the first person, and it might shed some light on the mechanics of first person oppositions. Essentially, inalienable possession in Omaha-Ponca is restricted to kinship terms. There are some terms that might be construed as kin terms that are alienably possessed, e.g., nu 'man' in the sense 'husband'. The only traces of possession with body parts, etc., are the initial i- in iz^a'z^e 'name', and perhaps iNkhede ~ ikhede 'shoulder', and the frequent occurrence of a fossil wa-, apparently marking originally 'unpossessed', with body parts (wahu 'bone', wahe 'horn') and foodstuffs (wahaba 'ear of corn', wattaNzi 'stalk/plant of corn'). One term, 'dwelling' has an irregular paradigm: Px1 tti' wiwi'tta Px2 tti' dhidhi'tta Px3 e' tti'=i cf. PpaNkka tti 'Ponca lodge' NiN'kkagahi tti 'chief's lodge' This is essentially the alienable pattern, but with the third person in verbal form 'he dwells (there)', etc. With kinship terms the prefixes are normally wi Px1, dhi Px2, i Px3. There is no inclusive form. Instead a first person or second person, generally the latter, is substituted. I am not sure what factors, presumably pragmatic, result in the first person being used instead. Two terms, idha'di 'father', and ihaN' 'mother', are exceptional in having iN Px1, to wit, iNda'di 'my father', and iN'naNhaN 'my mother'. Note that with these stems the first person (and vocative) use alternate stems dadi (vs. 2nd and 3rd adi) and naNhaN (vs. 2nd and 3rd haN). The paradigms here are: Voc dadi'=ha=u (modern m spkg), dadi'=ha (modern f spkg)(formerly either sex speaking) Px1 iNda'di Px2 dhia'di Px3 idha'di (dh is probably historically epenthetic) Voc iN'naNhaN=(ha)u (modern m speaking) iN'naNhaN=ha (modern f speaking) (formerly either sex speaking) Px1 iN'naNhaN Px2 dhihaN' Px3 ihaN' The change from former (c. 1880s) to modern (1900s on) usage in the vocatives occur throughout the kinship system, and a part of a readjustment in the sex of speaker markers that was incipient at the time of Dorsey's work, and is well established in the work of LaFlesche. It appears that Dorsey preferred older, conservative speakers, as LaFlsche and he were, of course, contemporaries. There is one further term that I believe includes a fossilized iN prefix, which is iNs^?a'ge 'elder, old man', often used, of course, as a vocative, though this form is also used in reference. There is some tendency for the first person possessive to appear with with vocatives in Omaha-Ponca. The iN form is identical to the dative variant of the patient pronominal aN + gi => iN 'to me' and might arise from it. That is, perhaps iN-possessives reflect benefactives of verablized noun stems: 'iNda'di 'my father' < 'he is a father to/for me'. Notice that Dakotan mi(N) is amenable to the same analysis. If this analysis is deemed plausible then it might account for one source of variant possessive prefixes. From pustet at babel.Colorado.EDU Fri May 14 09:17:27 1999 From: pustet at babel.Colorado.EDU (regina pustet) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 03:17:27 -0600 Subject: (In)dependent body parts in Dakotan? Message-ID: While compiling a Lakota text collection over the past couple of years, I noticed usages of the possessive markers that struck me as extremely inappropriate from the classical Boas/Deloria perspective. My overall impression is that the system is changing under the influence of English syntax. As for the discourse occurrence of the inalienable nominal possessor prefixes (the ma-/mi- series), we have to keep in mind that they were already relatively marginal when Boas and Deloria were working on the language. Usually, in the Deloria texts as well as today, possession is expressed by means of semantically complex verbal person affixes, which do not differentiate between control and non-control, or whatever the semantic denominator of the Lakota ma-/mi- contrast may be, if there is any. In other words, in statistical terms, the hypothetical contrast is not very salient. In my texts I observed an overwhelming tendency to replace the original possessor affixes with the paradigm of free possessive pronouns (mithawa mine, nithawa your etc.), to the effect that I had just a handful occurrences of affixes of the ma-/mi- type in the texts -- which is not much, given that I have about 350 pages of text. I remember an interesting sentence in which my speaker said something like the doctor examined me, and my heart, my liver, and my blood are all okay. She used a different construction type for each possessed body part she mentions: the mi-affix, verbal affixes, and the free pronoun mithawa mine. All in all, body parts tend to be used with the free pronouns today, or with the verbal possessor affixes, rather than with the ma-/mi- series of affixes. I also explicitly checked the compatibility of various body part lexemes with these affixes, and my speakers were usually reluctant to accept the forms. They prefer the free pronouns in this case -- they probably imitate English syntax (subconsciously, of course). What Im trying to say is that the contrast between ma- and mi- did not play a very dominant role in actual language use in the past, and is about to get entirely obsolete today. From Rood at Uni-Koeln.DE Sun May 16 11:46:27 1999 From: Rood at Uni-Koeln.DE (David Rood) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 13:46:27 +0200 Subject: (In)dependent body parts in Dakotan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: When I tried to work on the Lakhota dictionary a few years ago, I wanted to put the correct possessed form for each noun into the entry for that noun as part of its grammatical information. I found something similar to what Regina found, only more extreme: many body part terms were simply unacceptable when possessed in any construction whatsoever. I would have to be back in Boulder to look at the details, but that surprised me. David David S. Rood Professor of LInguistics Institut fuer Sprachwissenschaft Universitaet zu Koeln D-50923 Koeln email: rood at uni-koeln.de email: rood at colorado.edu From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Sun May 16 18:59:58 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 11:59:58 -0700 Subject: Siouan language programs? Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I am updating my article on Siouan languages and linguistics for the Plains volume of the Handbook of North American Indians (HNAI) being published by the Smithsonian. I've been asked by Ray DeMallie to include, for each Siouan language in the Plains area, information on current programs to teach the language in tribal, public or other schools and institutions. I'll only be able to include a few sentences about language maintenence and revival programs in each case, so massive input isn't needed. If you have information about instruction being offered in the languages you have expertise on, would you be willing to send me a short description of the program(s) including information about institution, enrollment and availablilty of pedagogical materials, plus anything else you deem pertinent. I will be more than happy to note your contribution formally. I can handle the usual grammar, phonology, history, etc. but I'll need help to do this section properly. Thanks in advance. Bob Rankin Dept. of Linguistics University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045-2140 From munro at ucla.edu Sun May 16 17:42:11 1999 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 10:42:11 -0700 Subject: Siouan language programs? Message-ID: Dear Bob, I am working with two sets of pedagogical materials on Assiniboine. One of these is by Doug Parks (currently in the field, so he may not see your note), but I know Ray DeMallie is involved with the project, so he may tell you about these materials, which are being used in classes at Fort Belknap College. I know Doug's goal is to offer a full year of instruction, though currently I think his lessons only go through about a semester. The other set of materials have been developed by Ken Ryan and Bob Fourstar (non-linguist native speakers) for use in classes at Fort Peck College. I received these because one of the two students I'm working through the materials with is the niece of these two gentlemen (who are half-brothers). The material I've seen would probably be for a little longer than a semester, so I imagine that it too might be stretched to a year. As I have learned from both sides, there is some animosity between these two language programs, unfortunately (but as you and I know, probably not surprisingly). I can't provide you with enrollment figures but if you don't have another source for these (from Fort Peck) I could probably ask someone. Let me know if you want this much detail. For your ears only (sensitive, and I assume evaluation is not the goal of your report), it's interesting that there are plusses and minuses to both of these sets of materials. Each of them has different orthographic problems (in my opinion: when you have a language that is quite easy to write in a fully keyboardable practical orthography, why not do this??) -- they use totally incompatible orthographies -- and each has different pedagogical strengths and weaknesses. My two students and I both wish that we could wave a magic wand and develop a joint program with all the good features of both programs. Anyway, hope this is helpful. I have heard that there are also (different) Assiniboine materials being used in Canada, but we haven't seen them. Pam From munro at ucla.edu Sun May 16 17:51:51 1999 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 10:51:51 -0700 Subject: Siouan language programs? Message-ID: Dear Everyone, I really apologize to all of you for sending the message I just sent, which should have gone just to Bob Rankin. I am VERY very grateful for all the help I've gotten from all of you about Assiniboine. Please forgive me. Pam Munro From BARudes at aol.com Sun May 16 18:43:02 1999 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 14:43:02 EDT Subject: Siouan language programs? Message-ID: Bob, Given that your article is for the Plains volume, I assume you do not want information on ongoing programs to teach the Catawba language. (There are currently classes for school-aged children and adults at the Catawba Cultural Center and an informal pre-school program as part of the Head Start program on the reservation.) Let me know if I am wrong and I will send you the information. Blair From pustet at babel.Colorado.EDU Mon May 17 08:45:00 1999 From: pustet at babel.Colorado.EDU (regina pustet) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 02:45:00 -0600 Subject: 10.720, Qs: Proximate/obviative, ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just an afterthought: Of course, the Latin iste - ille contrast is, functionally speaking, by no means comparable to obviation in Algonquian languages. The former implies deixis proper, the latter pragmatic deixis, or discourse perspective. But this functional aspect would, at least theoretically, not preclude the occurrence of coordinated NPs which differ with respect to obviation status. Intuitively, I'd say, something like this is unlikely to occur, but the more I think about it, the more fascinating I find this possibility. However, the STRUCTURAL facts connected with Algonquian obviation/inversion systems probably rule out this possibility. In such a system, marking for discourse perspective is inseparably linked with marking for semantic role - perspective markers cannot be shifted around as freely as demonstratives without affecting the structure of a clause as a whole. In particular, the structure of Algonquian obviation systems basically requires that in a given clause, a proximate and an obviative participant fulfill different semantic roles. However, coordinated NPs, as in the Latin examples, fulfill the same semantic role; and this is where the contradiction lies. But this state of affairs describes the situation for transitive clauses only. Coding restrictions might be a bit more relaxed in intransitive clauses. Very much to my surprise, in Uhlenbeck's Peigan Blackfoot texts I have discovered examples of simple clauses in which the very same participant is coded as a proximate on the verb, but as an obviative on the NP, or vice versa. This is the reason why I'm sympathetic to the idea that it might be possible to play around with obviation markers in coordinated NPs as well, at least in intransitive clauses -- although Im unable to come up an example at this point. R.P. From John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU Mon May 17 08:45:53 1999 From: John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 02:45:53 -0600 Subject: Reply Policy on the Siouan List Message-ID: This might be a good time to remind people that the Siouan List (like a lot of lists) is set so that the specified reply address is the list. There are pros and cons to this, but I've observed in the past that lists that set reply to the sender tend to be very quiet, as all replies go to the original poster, and not to the list. A few general words of advice: When replying to email it's a usually a good idea to glance at the To-field before sending. Of course, my least favorite mailers use for the "send immediately" key some combination that means "skip to end of line" in some other mailer that I have to use a lot. This makes it easy to miss your chance to glance. Of course, who remembers to glance, anyway? In general, be aware that replying might address a letter not to an author, but to a list on which a letter has been posted, or to the original author of something that has been forwarded - which is why it's not wise to forward somebody's letter to make fun of it, or to make fun of a forwarding to a forwarder without checking the To-field carefully. Another ambush can be having a reply go to all recipients of a letter sent to several people, when you only wanted to reply to, say, the original sender. I myself have discovered that some mail programs helpfully add all aliases examined in the address book to the current letter without asking. It can also be risky to blind copy someone a letter, as some mailers permit. Sooner or later you will forward a copy to the wrong person in which the blind copy address is included. Also remember that all email archives are subject to subpoena. This is a principle they keep forgetting at, e.g., Microsoft. For that matter, our archives are public. From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Mon May 17 23:19:32 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 16:19:32 -0700 Subject: 10.720, Qs: Proximate/obviative, ... Message-ID: If I have understood the discourse so far correctly, it might be interesting to look at Muskogean languages. I will not get into details here, since Muskogean isn't Siouan obviously, but in Muskogean languages there are two enclitics which could be described as -t 'proximate' and -n 'obviative'. They have often been described as "subject" and "oblique" suffixes, but, although -t does most often mark grammatical subjects, there are suspicious exceptions. Additionally, the same two morphemes are used to link clauses where they are often said to mark "switch reference". If we treat the two usages as distinct phenomena, their homophony would be the most bizzare of coincidences. If we treat the -t's and -n's as "sames" in both their functions, then one of the few concepts that unites them is obviation. Pam Munro's former student, Heather Hardy, did a paper on this some years back in which she elected to use the terms "central" (for -t) vs. "peripheral" (for -n). The concept is very similar though, as far as I can tell. In any event, those who are interested in obviation as a referent tracking grammatical device, should examine the Muskogean data. Bob Rankin ******************************* regina pustet wrote: > ... this functional aspect would, at least theoretically, not preclude the occurrence of coordinated NPs which differ with respect to obviation status. Intuitively, I'd say, something like this is unlikely to occur, but the more I think about it, the more fascinating I find this possibility. From jggoodtracks at juno.com Tue May 18 03:53:09 1999 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:53:09 -0500 Subject: Siouan language programs? Message-ID: Bob: In regard to your update for the Plains Volume for the Handbook of the NAm by the Smithsonian, follows is a current update on the teaching of Baxoje-Jiwere (Ioway-Otoe/Missouri) languages at this time: Otoe-Missouria Tribe at Red Rock, Oklahoma= 1998. Tony Arkikita perform survey of enrolled speakers of Jiwere identified 6 persons who have semi fluency/ knowledge of language (speaking & comprehension). 4 are still living. 70yoa+. Total fluent speakers (first language)=zero. 1999. Kenneth Black asked to teach evening adult classes. 10-15 attending. Using IO Books I & II as only text. KB says the word/ phrases; students told to write it out as it sounds to them. KB also supplies oral history. Tribe provides class room space, but no monetary, moral support, etc. Class currently suspended as KB tends health concerns. Hope to resume and add Autumn language classes at Headstart via some younger person. KB declines teaching children. Truman Black, OKCity, said to hold class in OKCity. Iowa Tribe of Oklahoma at Perkins, OK= Tribe has hired an interested historian, archivist, (Cultural Preservationist) who has sponcered members to various seminars, museums, etc. in past/ current several years. Previously, it is said that Truman Black offered class instructions (at public school?), but was discontinued as some political persons objected to an enrolled Otoe teaching enrolled Ioways in Ioway area (jurisdiction) [Note: This latter information was given me by several IO individuals. So I am not the original source who shares that note with you.] Iowa Tribe of Kansas/ Nebraska at White Cloud, KS= No classes, no support, no interest by Tribe. Some varied interest by perhaps 12 - 18 known enrolled members pursuing random language learning at own cost & time. Some small cultural grants given these individuals by Kansas Historical Society for various projects, songs, language, crafts, etc. Jimm GT From tleonard at tulsa.com Tue May 18 04:56:07 1999 From: tleonard at tulsa.com (Tleonard) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:56:07 -0500 Subject: Siouan language programs? In-Reply-To: <19990517.225314.-431931.0.jggoodtracks@juno.com> Message-ID: Bob: an update on the j. goodtracks message below.......Frontier School, Red Rock Oklahoma is instituting a new program for Ponca and Otoe language education, begining 09/99, incorporating teaching grammars. Preliminary kick-off is Wednesday, May 19, 1999. Program is funded and has good community participation. More detail to follow. TL At 10:53 PM 5/17/99 -0500, you wrote: >Bob: >In regard to your update for the Plains Volume for the Handbook of the >NAm by the Smithsonian, follows is a current update on the teaching of >Baxoje-Jiwere (Ioway-Otoe/Missouri) languages at this time: > >Otoe-Missouria Tribe at Red Rock, Oklahoma= > 1998. Tony Arkikita perform survey of enrolled speakers of Jiwere >identified 6 persons who have semi fluency/ knowledge of language >(speaking & comprehension). 4 are still living. 70yoa+. Total fluent >speakers (first language)=zero. > 1999. Kenneth Black asked to teach evening adult classes. 10-15 >attending. Using IO Books I & II as only text. KB says the word/ >phrases; students told to write it out as it sounds to them. KB also >supplies oral history. Tribe provides class room space, but no monetary, >moral support, etc. Class currently suspended as KB tends health >concerns. Hope to resume and add Autumn language classes at Headstart >via some younger person. KB declines teaching children. Truman Black, >OKCity, said to hold class in OKCity. > >Iowa Tribe of Oklahoma at Perkins, OK= > Tribe has hired an interested historian, archivist, (Cultural >Preservationist) who has sponcered members to various seminars, museums, >etc. in past/ current several years. Previously, it is said that Truman >Black offered class instructions (at public school?), but was >discontinued as some political persons objected to an enrolled Otoe >teaching enrolled Ioways in Ioway area (jurisdiction) [Note: This latter >information was given me by several IO individuals. So I am not the >original source who shares that note with you.] > >Iowa Tribe of Kansas/ Nebraska at White Cloud, KS= > No classes, no support, no interest by Tribe. Some varied interest by >perhaps 12 - 18 known enrolled members pursuing random language learning >at own cost & time. Some small cultural grants given these individuals >by Kansas Historical Society for various projects, songs, language, >crafts, etc. > >Jimm GT > > > > > From John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU Tue May 18 18:35:26 1999 From: John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 12:35:26 -0600 Subject: Bushotter Files Message-ID: In case anyone is interested, I have the Siouan Archives version of the Bushotter files (rather a mess, I'm afraid, and still in the original Siouan Archives format) up at: http://www.colorado.edu/ling/cesnalps/Projects/SA/saindex.htm Also, the complete Siouan fonts are at: http://www.colorado.edu/ling/cesnalps/Services/ssfonts.htm These urls are in a very preliminary new set of CeSNaLPS web pages. Please don't spend any time browsing them as they are in a horrifying state of disarray, still full of incomplete and incorrect links, and neither complete nor fully edited. From VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA Wed May 19 02:09:45 1999 From: VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA (VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 21:09:45 -0500 Subject: Siouan language programs? Message-ID: > Dear Colleagues, > > I am updating my article on Siouan languages and linguistics for the > Plains volume of the Handbook of North American Indians (HNAI) being > published by the Smithsonian. I've been asked by Ray DeMallie to > include, for each Siouan language in the Plains area, information on > current programs to teach the language in tribal, public or other > schools and institutions. Brandon University at Brandon, Manitoba, Canada, offers an introductory Dakota language course. The instructor is Doris Pratt M Ed., using lesson materials developed at the university for this course. The course is not necessarily offered every year, but at least every second year. There has been some discussion about offering a more advanced course too, but I don't know what decisions, if any, have been made about that. I believe I heard that there were around 30 students in the course last year, but let me try to check on that number before you send it on. Paul From VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA Wed May 19 20:00:50 1999 From: VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA (VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 15:00:50 -0500 Subject: Proximate/obviative Message-ID: > If I have understood the discourse so far correctly, it might be > interesting to look at Muskogean languages. I will not get into deta= > ils > here, since Muskogean isn't Siouan obviously, Likewise I apologize in advance for posting a few comments on Algonquian to the Siouan list. I do so in the hope that the characteristics of the Algonquian obviative may be a help in recognizing similar phenomena elsewhere. > but in Muskogean langua= > ges > there are two enclitics which could be described as -t 'proximate' an= > d > -n 'obviative'. They have often been described as "subject" and > "oblique" suffixes, but, although -t does most often mark grammatical > subjects, there are suspicious exceptions. In many sentences in an Algonquian language, the proximate will be found to translate the nominative and the obviative will translate the accusative of an Indo-European, Semitic, or Uralic language that retains such a case system. There are several differences, though, that reflect the fact that the obviative is really a secondary-third-person indicator rather than a direct-object indicator. First, the obviative indicates a direct object only when another third person, pronoun or noun, is the subject. If the subject is a first- or second-person pronoun, then the proximate forms are used for a direct object. Accusative case forms are, of course, used for all direct objects without regard to the person of the subject. Second, obviatives can be subjects and proximates can be objects when the focus is on the object. The inverse suffix on the verb signals this reversal of more typical roles. The situation certainly resembles the passive formations in some of the nominative/accusative languages except that while the basic object becomes nominative in a passive construction (viewed as a transformation of an active), the basic subject can never become accusative, but must be moved into some other case, such as the instrumental, or become the object of a preposition. Accusatives can't be subjects, but obviatives can. Third, the possession of a third-person possessor must be obviative in Algonquian. In fact, we can certainly imagine a language in which either possessor or possession could be obviative, but Algonquian languages do not offer the option. Obviously possessions in case-system languages are never confined to the accusative case. Furthermore, the third-person possessor itself will be proximate or obviative in Algonquian which certainly contrasts with Indo-European, Semitic, and Uralic languages where there are special genitive case forms, prepositions, or adjectival forms to identify possessors. Paul From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed May 19 20:42:28 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 15:42:28 -0500 Subject: Proximate/obviative In-Reply-To: <01JBDW4X2ERM96VLGH@BrandonU.CA> Message-ID: Paul, and all, Personally, I find the Algonquian comments very enlightening. It isn't easy to find good, consise descriptions of just how it works in Algonquian. We're just starting to see that such a system may be at work in Dhegiha Siouan languages, and any comparisons are helpful at least to me. Voorhis, on Algonquian: > First, the obviative indicates a direct object only when another third > person, pronoun or noun, is the subject. If the subject is a first- or > second-person pronoun, then the proximate forms are used for a direct > object. Second, obviatives can be subjects and proximates can be > objects when the focus is on the object. ... Accusatives can't be > subjects, but obviatives can. Algonquian certainly makes the case especially clearly. I don't think Dhegiha Siouan (or Muskogean for that matter) present evidence that is nearly as unequivocal. But I must say that Siouanists have probably not elicited the right kinds of examples for maximal clarification. I know I didn't. If crucial examples are there in my Kaw data, it's accidental. Paul's given us some things to search for in Dhegiha. There are a number of slightly different referent tracking systems out there, and it's often difficult to know whose definition to try to stretch. :-) Bob From jggoodtracks at juno.com Wed May 19 21:42:01 1999 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 16:42:01 -0500 Subject: Fw: Re: Siouan language programs? Message-ID: UPDATED INFORMATION = MAY 19, 1999 RE: IOWAY TRIBAL PROGRAMING --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: jggoodtracks at juno.com To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:53:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Siouan language programs? Bob: THIS IS A CORRECTED UPDATE In regard to your update for the Plains Volume for the Handbook of the NAm by the Smithsonian: I STAND CORRECTED BY AN INFORM IO ENROLLED MEMEBER IN THAT THE: Iowa Tribe of Oklahoma at Perkins, OK= Tribe has hired an interested historian, archivist, (Cultural Preservationist) THEY ARE INVOLVED IN TNE NAGPRA (N.AM. GRAVES PROTECTION & REPATRIATION ACT (AS PER THEIR WEB PAGE). IT IS SUZZETTE ROGERS, CURATOR FOR THE IOWAY & SAC MUSEUM OF HIGHLAND, KS.... who has sponcered TRIBAL members to various seminars, museums, etc. in past/ current several years. IT IS UNDERSTOOD THAT SHE HOPES TO WORK OUT SOME KIND OF A CULTURAL PROGRAM WITH THE OKLAHOMA IOWAY TRIBE. (AS PER THE UNDERSTANDING OF THIS IO PERSON, WHO HAS ASSISTED HER ON OCCASSION, IN PREVIOUS CULTURAL PROJECTS). Previously, it is said that Truman Black offered class instructions (at public school?), (ETC.) Jimm GT From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Thu May 20 17:25:02 1999 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (SHEA KATHLEEN DORETTE) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:25:02 -0500 Subject: Fw: Re: Siouan language programs? In-Reply-To: <19990519.164203.-431931.5.jggoodtracks@juno.com> Message-ID: Frontier School in Red Rock (K-12) wants to offer both (Iowa-)Oto and (Omaha-)Ponca at the high-school level next fall. The classes have been appoved by the school board and everything and have about 15 eager students signed up for each class, but the problem is that they don't have any teachers, curriculum, or teaching materials. The superintendent heard about my work on Ponca from Parrish Williams, one of my Ponca consultants, who has two great-granddaughters in the school, and asked to meet me. As a result, we decided to get together a group of resource people from among the Poncas and my linguist friends to form a "language committee," which has met a couple of times. (We're concentrating on Ponca, but the Otoe-Missourias also need develop a curriculum. I haven't heard who the Oto teacher will be--possibly Kenneth Black.) I have a problem, in that I'm facing a graduate school deadline for finishing my dissertation and can't afford to get involved in intensive/extensive lesson planning right now, so I've told the school that I can be available as a "consultant." The school will provide classroom space and facilities but expects the Poncas and us other "experts" to develop the curriculum and to come up with any necessary funding to do it. (We're meeting with the tribal council next Monday to talk about this. Apparently, the school district, although very wealthy and reputedly a very good school, due in part to money derived from a nearby power plant, just has money in its budget to pay for books and a curriculum already developed but not for curriculum development. It does have a lot of good computers and an outstanding media, i.e. video, program for high-school students, which could be utilized in the Ponca class.) Alice Anderton, a linguist from Norman who does a weekily t.v. program on Oklahoma Native languages called Wordpath and who heads a non-profit clearinghouse, the Intertribal Wordpath Society, has driven up to attend our committee meetings and has offered to continue to meet once a week with us to develop a plan. She showed us a videotape of a workshop led by Leanne Hinton in Lawton demonstrating the master-apprentice approach to language learning which could be adapted to the Ponca class. Since Ponca doesn't have a standardized writing system at this time, if the language is to be offered in the fall, it would have to be an oral-aural approach initially. The alternative is to start the class in the fall of 2000, which the superintendent is willing to do. Any suggestions from those on the Siouan list about teaching materials, methods, suggestions about ways to deal with the logistics--political or financial, success stories, or anything else would be greatly appreciated! I've already gotten information and input from Catherine Rudin, Carolyn Quintero, and Susan Garzon, who stand ready to help in whatever way they can. Sara Trechter, whose keynote address I heard at the recent WAIL conference, has offered to send me references from the class she teaches on second language acquisition. John Nichols, who was also at the WAIL conference, suggested the intriguing idea of conducting the course something like a fieldmethods course but without much writing, letting the students "discover" the language from the native speakers (about 40 in number, mostly in their 70's and 80's) and perhaps throwing in a little linguistics. Bob Rankin suggested that the ASTP (Army Specialized Training Program) that worked so well during World War II for linguists having to work up teaching materials in a hurry for strategic languages might be useful. Does anyone have any information about this method or know of materials outlining the "template" that was used for developing the ASTP teaching grammars? Again, any suggestions from any of you would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Kathy Shea On Wed, 19 May 1999, Jimm G GoodTracks wrote: > UPDATED INFORMATION = MAY 19, 1999 > RE: IOWAY TRIBAL PROGRAMING > > --------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: jggoodtracks at juno.com > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:53:09 -0500 > Subject: Re: Siouan language programs? > > > Bob: > THIS IS A CORRECTED UPDATE In regard to your update for the Plains Volume > for the Handbook of the NAm by the Smithsonian: > > I STAND CORRECTED BY AN INFORM IO ENROLLED MEMEBER IN THAT THE: > > Iowa Tribe of Oklahoma at Perkins, OK= > Tribe has hired an interested historian, archivist, (Cultural > Preservationist) > THEY ARE INVOLVED IN TNE NAGPRA (N.AM. GRAVES PROTECTION & REPATRIATION > ACT (AS PER THEIR WEB PAGE). > > IT IS SUZZETTE ROGERS, CURATOR FOR THE IOWAY & SAC MUSEUM OF HIGHLAND, > KS.... > who has sponcered TRIBAL members to various seminars, museums, etc. in > past/ current several years. > IT IS UNDERSTOOD THAT SHE HOPES TO WORK OUT SOME KIND OF A CULTURAL > PROGRAM WITH THE OKLAHOMA IOWAY TRIBE. (AS PER THE UNDERSTANDING OF THIS > IO PERSON, WHO HAS ASSISTED HER ON OCCASSION, IN PREVIOUS CULTURAL > PROJECTS). > Previously, it is said that Truman Black offered class instructions (at > public school?), (ETC.) > > Jimm GT > > > > From Rood at Uni-Koeln.DE Fri May 21 06:59:10 1999 From: Rood at Uni-Koeln.DE (David Rood) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 08:59:10 +0200 Subject: incommunicado In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just in case anyone cares, the Univ. of Cologne has a mid-semester vacation next week and I'll be away from my computer. So don't expect me to answer email until May 31 or so. Hope you're all having a happy summer, and that most of you will see each other at the conference in Regina. I'm sorry I won't be there. Best wishes, David David S. Rood Professor of LInguistics Institut fuer Sprachwissenschaft Universitaet zu Koeln D-50923 Koeln email: rood at uni-koeln.de email: rood at colorado.edu From Zylogy at aol.com Mon May 31 21:33:36 1999 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 17:33:36 EDT Subject: Sound symbolism at SSILA Message-ID: Hi, folks. There is the possibility of a session on areal patterning of sound symbolism at the upcoming SSILA meeting in Chicago in January. Are there any Siouanists who think they might like to contribute? Please let me know. Thanks! Sincerely, Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com From Rood at Uni-Koeln.DE Mon May 31 11:45:46 1999 From: Rood at Uni-Koeln.DE (David Rood) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 13:45:46 +0200 Subject: Flying to the Conference? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My most recent experience was a nasty one with the US immigration people in Chicago. They weren't going to let me back in the country because I didn't have either a passport or a birth certificate plus ID. The officer there told me that they were stricter on airline passengers than drivers because the drivers had to be processed so quickly. That was in the summer of 1997. It was definitely the US immigration people who were hassling me. Again, everyone have a good time -- I'm sorry I can't be there. David David S. Rood Professor of LInguistics Institut fuer Sprachwissenschaft Universitaet zu Koeln D-50923 Koeln email: rood at uni-koeln.de email: rood at colorado.edu