From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Sep 1 02:37:18 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 20:37:18 -0600 Subject: Is Shoebox4.0 good for Dakotan? In-Reply-To: <199908311808_MC2-831E-B3AE@compuserve.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Aug 1999, Carolyn wrote: > After experimenting with Shoebox 2.0 parser (ITP) just to the point of > getting it to work and building a small data base, I abandoned its use > entirely due to too much surface variation in Osage. I did use Shoebox > happily for dictionary items as a simple database and found it excellent > (except for the absence of ability to print!) The surface variation problem Carolyn refers to for Osage was partly due to variation in the transcriptions, preservation of phonetic detail due to the special circumstances of Osage, and so on, and not just the usual allomorphy of a MV Siouan language (somewhat more in Dhegiha than in Dakotan). Current versions of Shoebox have some simple printing facilities, I believe, and there is now a nice separate formatting tool that takes the Shoebox database as input and creates an RTF file plus a Word style file. The two of these can be read into Word (for Windows) and printed. This approach allows you to convert your dictionary database into a printed dictionary, for example. I'm not sure how powerful the facilities are for interconverting between fields and independent paragraphs or for making various substitutions and conversions. We've found facilities of that nature to be important in working with the Comparative Siouan Dictionary. From Rgraczyk at aol.com Fri Sep 3 16:50:02 1999 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 12:50:02 EDT Subject: etymology of Apsa'alooka Message-ID: In following the discussion on the etymologies of Mandan and Hidatsa, I was struck by the statement, "The Hidatsa were known by a number of terms, including Gros Ventres/Big Bellies, Minataries and a collective term 'Mirokac' which included the River Crows. 'Mirokac' looks very much like the Crow term bi'ilukaa, which the Crows use to refer to themselves, and which is sometimes glossed 'our side, our people, we Crows'. The glosses suggest that the term includes the 1 person stative pronoun bii-. This term is obviously cognate with the Hidatsa; I presume that the 'c' in 'Mirokac' is the Hi declarative sentence-final marker. I am wondering if luukaa/roka is also found as the last part of Apsa'alooka. Crows usually say that this means 'children of the long-beaked bird', i.e., apa' 'nose, beak' + isa'a 'big' plus looka 'children'. I have always felt that this is a folk etymology, since the word for children in Crow is da'aka, not do'oka. In other words, the vowels do not match very well. Interestingly, there is another word that contains a similar element: baawilo'oka or baawulo'oka 'virgin'. In all three cases, looka/luuka refers to persons. Does anyone know of a Siouan cognate for this element? Randy From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Fri Sep 3 23:46:52 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 18:46:52 -0500 Subject: etymology of Apsa'alooka In-Reply-To: <402f3e44.2501563a@aol.com> Message-ID: > In all three cases, looka/luuka refers to persons. Does anyone know > of a Siouan cognate for this element? *wi-ro:k-a/e with the root /ro:k/ 'man'. This really is restricted to MALEs in most Siouan languages however and contrasts with a term for 'female'. The PERSON term is different and not resemblant. Maybe I'll think of something more likely. Bob From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Sep 6 17:17:53 1999 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 12:17:53 -0500 Subject: MANDAN Message-ID: Hayden (1862, p. 426) has "The Mandans, or Mi-ah'ta-nes [dot above h; long e], "people on the bank"(of the river), as they call themselves". Is this analyzable? And (p. 428) "Nearly all of the Mandans speak the Minnitaree language, and many of them are familiar with the Dakota and Arikara tongues, but very few if any of the surrounding tribes have acquired that of the Mandans." Alan From Zylogy at aol.com Mon Sep 6 18:22:57 1999 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 14:22:57 EDT Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting Message-ID: Is there someone out there who has any idea when various sound-symbolic shifts in Siouan languages became unproductive- that is, lexicalized- in most of the languages? Also, family-level cross-linguistic work seems to indicate that most of such augmentive/diminutive shifts originate as bound morphology. Has any study been done to determine etymological sources within Siouan? Thanks. Sincerely, Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Sep 6 18:33:15 1999 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 13:33:15 -0500 Subject: MANDAN Message-ID: McKenzie (early 19c., in Wood & Thiessen 1985, 249) gives the following names for the Mandan: Gros Ventres: arrach bugja wrach baga Corbeaux (Crow): annach bogu minnach baga cf.-- Hidatsa adahpakoa [second a short, dot above h] 'Mandan' (Matthews 1877, 125) Crow birexba:ke [first e is schwa, a is accented] 'person, people' (Lowie 1960, 305-6) We can thus apparently exclude at least CH as the source of Eng. Mandan. From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Mon Sep 6 18:45:59 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 13:45:59 -0500 Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting In-Reply-To: <5807348.25056081@aol.com> Message-ID: > Is there someone out there who has any idea when various > sound-symbolic shifts in Siouan languages became unproductive- that > is, lexicalized- in most of the languages? There's no real evidence that it ever was anything but lexical. I guess I've heard that Dakotan speakers can sometimes play games with the concept. > Also, family-level cross-linguistic work seems to indicate that most > of such augmentive/diminutive shifts originate as bound morphology. Where you find diminutive shift (dental is replaced by palato-alveolar), it is not affixal nor is it possible to reconstruct a point where it was. Kansa examples: dappa 'short' > jappa 'stubby, really short' doba 'some' > joba 'a little bit' Not many examples of this and none reconstructible to proto-Siouan. Bob From Zylogy at aol.com Mon Sep 6 19:19:14 1999 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 15:19:14 EDT Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting Message-ID: Thanks. Perhaps then it is extremely old in Siouan languages. If there are any scholars of contiguous families (Algonkian, Muskogean, etc.) on the list, would you say that shifting was similarly lexicalized in these families? Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Sep 7 18:51:39 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 12:51:39 -0600 Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting In-Reply-To: <5807348.25056081@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 Zylogy at aol.com wrote: > Is there someone out there who has any idea when various sound-symbolic > shifts in Siouan languages became unproductive- that is, lexicalized- in > most of the languages? It's an interesting question whether unproductive and lexicalized are the same thing - at least in this case. The fricative gradation that occurs throughout the family and the affrication that occurs in at least Dhegiha are not in any sense morphological or obligatory, and in Dhegiha the closest to frequent use I've seen is a text or part of a text in which there was a lot of the affrication. I don't recall the details at the moment but I remember it seemed to be associated with a "little old lady" (wa?u zhiNga) speaking. On the other hand, it's not at all clear that all examples of the fricative gradation are inherited, so somebody, somewhere, sometime is manufacturing new examples that catch on and become fixed idioms. It's a form of lexical affixation (nonlinear or superfix or whatever). It seems to be less used (less productive) than instrumental prefixation, for example, but I'm not convinced it's completely unproductive in Dhegiha. I just don't have any idea how productive it is. Other lexical processes of uncertain degree of productivity would include reduplication and spontaneously generated onomatopes or ideophones. I'm pretty sure that things like the locatives, reflexives, datives and suus prefixes are more productive, but I don't have anything but an impression to go on there either. These are quasi grammatical, of course, in Siouan languages, though less so than personal inflection. Some of the fault for not being sure of the degree of productivity here falls on the shoulders of the students of Dhegiha. We haven't been very productive either, I guess. On the other hand, I suspect that it's not really possible to say much on this score for any language in the family, including the Dakotan dialects or Crow. The truth is, very little has been done on such questions, and the best lexicons for Siouan languages are still at a quite primitive state of development, including those for Dakotan. I can remember David Rood agonizing over issues like this when the new Lakota dictionary project got under way. (It's currently on hold.) By the way, another related phenomena might be bl ~ gm alternations in Dakotan. There's no real etymolopgical source for gm. > Also, family-level cross-linguistic work seems to > indicate that most of such augmentive/diminutive shifts originate as bound > morphology. Like Dakotan =la DIMINUTIVE - here in Teton form. I think this is derived from =la(ka) the conjugated enclitic that means 'consider as'. Most of the rest of Mississippi Valley seems to rely on appending their equivalent of 'be little' to the noun. I think this occurs some in Dakotan, too. > Has any study been done to determine etymological sources within > Siouan? I'm not aware of any investigations into the origin of fricative gradation (or any of the other phenomena mentioned) in Siouan. I've always assumed, however, that it originated in precisely the form in which it now exists. If there is something affixal underlying all this, then it's very old and I suspect there's nothing left of it. Howver, Wes Jones has discussed (in a SACC/MALC paper, published in the MALC proceedings) an apparent pattern in Proto-Siouan of forming new roots from old by means of various extensions (initial or final). There are enough examples to make it seem that something was going on, but the basis of the system is completely obscure - i.e., the extensions seem arbitrary - at this point. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Sep 7 18:55:25 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 12:55:25 -0600 Subject: MANDAN In-Reply-To: <37D3F741.E23B961E@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Sep 1999, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > Hayden (1862, p. 426) has "The Mandans, or Mi-ah'ta-nes [dot above h; > long e], "people on the bank"(of the river), as they call themselves". > Is this analyzable? It looks like a mangling of Minitare, with the first r (the n in Mini) missing. I'll have to look up 'bank' later. From Zylogy at aol.com Tue Sep 7 19:42:16 1999 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 15:42:16 EDT Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting Message-ID: Thanks for the responses. In comparing what has been done concerning augmentative/diminutive shifts across North America, it becomes pretty clear that Chinookan and Sahaptian had the most elaborated systems. These, however, were mostly limited to nominal forms, and much more rarely occurred on verbal forms. Interestingly, many of the "Penutian" languages in this area relied on true ideophones to specify manner on a very much reduced verb stock. These ideophones are quite simple in structure, and relatively few in number (and they don't exhibit shifting) which seems to be true of most verb-initial languages with case (or which had it) as well as many primarily head-marking verb-final languages. Word order here can be pragmatic (and statistical) or grammatical- so I'm including "free" order langs. The picture in Siouan, at least to me, resembles to some extent an extrapolation beyond the situation between Pomoan and Yuman. In Kashaya Pomo, a good percentage of normal verb roots (especially those descriptive of manners of action) can appear stripped of morphology as ideophones (or conversely, one could think of the roots as derivative- it's difficult to know which process came first). Aug/dim shifts per se are not evident. In Yuman there are also ideophones, though fewer in number, aug/dim shifts seem more limited to quality terms (and derived nominals) than in Siouan. Given a putative relationship between Siouan and Hokan, perhaps shifting goes back to before the current families evolved. From what little I've seen Siouan has essentially no ideophones. Perhaps aug/dim shifts originated on stative verbs, while ideophones describe more actions with recognizable termini. In any case the Siouan shifts resemble Yuman more than anything else on the continent. Speculations? Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Tue Sep 7 20:51:22 1999 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 14:51:22 -0600 Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting In-Reply-To: <5807348.25056081@aol.com> Message-ID: I can't give you the details from my memory, but for some of the Lakhota speakers I've worked with, the symbolism is alive and well and used for both fun and expressive purposes. I don't believe that finding a bound morphological origin for it is likely, however, since it affects (synchronically) medial fricatives as well as initial ones. I don't have any notes on this, but I would be glad to try to elicit some data if you're interested and have lots of time -- all the speakers I regularly work with are away from Boulder at the moment, and I'm on sabbatical and otherwise preoccupied. Let me know how urgently you want the data, if at all. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado Campus Box 295 Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 Zylogy at aol.com wrote: > Is there someone out there who has any idea when various sound-symbolic > shifts in Siouan languages became unproductive- that is, lexicalized- in > most of the languages? Also, family-level cross-linguistic work seems to > indicate that most of such augmentive/diminutive shifts originate as bound > morphology. Has any study been done to determine etymological sources within > Siouan? Thanks. > > Sincerely, > Jess Tauber > zylogy at aol.com > From Zylogy at aol.com Tue Sep 7 20:59:29 1999 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 16:59:29 EDT Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting Message-ID: New data would be wonderful. I'd also be interested in whether or not there are sound symbolic ideophonic forms used at all by modern speakers (with or without associated auxiliaries)- here it would also be of interest to know whether such forms are Siouan in origin or French/English. Thanks, and take your time. I'm up to my ears in data from all over the planet. Best, Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Tue Sep 7 23:55:54 1999 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (SHEA KATHLEEN DORETTE) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 18:55:54 -0500 Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In working on Ponca, I found a couple of examples that might be interesting. One of the speakers I work with tells me that the (Omaha-)Ponca word for 'blue' is ttu, while the word for 'green' is ccu (with c standing for an alveo-palatal voiceless affricate that patterns with the stops p, t, and k, as does j with b, d, and g in Ponca). Since Siouan languages typically have one word for blue and green, ccu seems to be an innovation. Another example that I came across recently when I was talking to a native Ponca speaker at the Ponca Powwow recently is what I'll term a kind of "baby talk," or what an older person might use with a younger person I was told: dhaecHewadhe' 'You poor thing!' (with dh representing a voiced dental resonant, H aspiration--a raised h, and ' an accent on the preceding vowel). The ordinary form of this word would be dhaetHewadhe'. The speaker said his grandfather would use the form with cH substituted for tH when speaking to him. I thought I had another example but am not sure of it. I checked with my main consultant, and he confirmed the occasional usage of a special kind of speech by older people with younger. This is probably the same type of speech that John refers to as "little old lady speech," but I need to get more examples. By the way, John Nichols gave an interesting paper at the last WAIL conference about the dilemmas of having to compile a dictionary when there are two competing types of speech in the community--one in use among "younger" (about 20 to 60 years old) speakers and the other among elders. This was in Ojibway, and I think most of the examples involved palatalization in the younger peoples' speech with a consequent re-ordering of phonological rules. (I don't have a copy of his handout with me.) Anyway this is an interesting topic, and I agree with John Koontz that it deserves more study. Kathy Shea On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 Zylogy at aol.com wrote: > > Is there someone out there who has any idea when various sound-symbolic > > shifts in Siouan languages became unproductive- that is, lexicalized- in > > most of the languages? > > It's an interesting question whether unproductive and lexicalized are the > same thing - at least in this case. The fricative gradation that occurs > throughout the family and the affrication that occurs in at least Dhegiha > are not in any sense morphological or obligatory, and in Dhegiha the > closest to frequent use I've seen is a text or part of a text in which > there was a lot of the affrication. I don't recall the details at the > moment but I remember it seemed to be associated with a "little old lady" > (wa?u zhiNga) speaking. > > On the other hand, it's not at all clear that all examples of the > fricative gradation are inherited, so somebody, somewhere, sometime is > manufacturing new examples that catch on and become fixed idioms. It's a > form of lexical affixation (nonlinear or superfix or whatever). It seems > to be less used (less productive) than instrumental prefixation, for > example, but I'm not convinced it's completely unproductive in Dhegiha. I > just don't have any idea how productive it is. Other lexical processes of > uncertain degree of productivity would include reduplication and > spontaneously generated onomatopes or ideophones. I'm pretty sure that > things like the locatives, reflexives, datives and suus prefixes are more > productive, but I don't have anything but an impression to go on there > either. These are quasi grammatical, of course, in Siouan languages, > though less so than personal inflection. > > Some of the fault for not being sure of the degree of productivity here > falls on the shoulders of the students of Dhegiha. We haven't been very > productive either, I guess. On the other hand, I suspect that it's not > really possible to say much on this score for any language in the family, > including the Dakotan dialects or Crow. The truth is, very little has > been done on such questions, and the best lexicons for Siouan languages > are still at a quite primitive state of development, including those for > Dakotan. I can remember David Rood agonizing over issues like this when > the new Lakota dictionary project got under way. (It's currently on > hold.) > > By the way, another related phenomena might be bl ~ gm alternations in > Dakotan. There's no real etymolopgical source for gm. > > > Also, family-level cross-linguistic work seems to > > indicate that most of such augmentive/diminutive shifts originate as bound > > morphology. > > Like Dakotan =la DIMINUTIVE - here in Teton form. I think this is derived > from =la(ka) the conjugated enclitic that means 'consider as'. Most of > the rest of Mississippi Valley seems to rely on appending their equivalent > of 'be little' to the noun. I think this occurs some in Dakotan, too. > > > Has any study been done to determine etymological sources within > > Siouan? > > I'm not aware of any investigations into the origin of fricative gradation > (or any of the other phenomena mentioned) in Siouan. I've always assumed, > however, that it originated in precisely the form in which it now exists. > If there is something affixal underlying all this, then it's very old and > I suspect there's nothing left of it. > > Howver, Wes Jones has discussed (in a SACC/MALC paper, published in the > MALC proceedings) an apparent pattern in Proto-Siouan of forming new roots > from old by means of various extensions (initial or final). There are > enough examples to make it seem that something was going on, but the basis > of the system is completely obscure - i.e., the extensions seem arbitrary > - at this point. > > From jggoodtracks at juno.com Wed Sep 8 14:53:12 1999 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 09:53:12 -0500 Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting Message-ID: For what it is worth in the discussion: Ioway-Otoe has for "Dark= sewe" which seems to have been generated from "thewe= black". The two terms were used by elders. Also, in agreement with other Siouian languages there is "to= blue, green". In contemporary times "tohge ~ na'tohge= like green ~ like green leaves". JimmGT From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Sep 8 15:18:49 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 09:18:49 -0600 Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, SHEA KATHLEEN DORETTE wrote: > In working on Ponca, I found a couple of examples that might be > interesting. More examples, from Omaha-Ponca, trying not to duplicate Kathy or Bob. >>From Dorsey: =xti : =xc^i the enclitic 'very, truely' iNthaN : iNc^haN 'now' : 'right now' (I think this is the proper distinction.) iNc^haNga 'mouse' Ones I got in fieldwork (Omaha): c^c^eska 'short' haNegaNc^he 'dawn' (haN=egaN=the night-like-the) Dorsey often has MaNs^c^iNge(=iN) for 'the Rabbit', but the speakers I dealt with would only accept MaNs^tiNge. Mark Swetland once mentioned to me some c^ forms that had to do with being disheveled, but I'm not positive of their form at the moment. I use s^ and c^ above for the alveo-palatal series. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Sep 8 15:39:13 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 09:39:13 -0600 Subject: Colors (Was Re: augmentative/diminutive shifting) In-Reply-To: <19990908.095617.-121571.16.jggoodtracks@juno.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Jimm G GoodTracks wrote: > Also, in agreement with other Siouian languages there is "to= blue, > green". In contemporary times "tohge ~ na'tohge= like green ~ like green > leaves". In Omaha-Ponca sources I've found innovated distinctions or perhaps simply attempts to render the English distinction for translation: ttu : ttus^abe 'green' : 'blue' ('grue' : 'dark grue') ppez^ettu : ttu 'green' : 'blue' ('grass grue' : 'grue') I think it's Howard (not positive) who complains somewhere that what is called maNhiNttu 'bluestone' is really a sort of green to his eye. Of course, this is pretty typical of Siouan languages. I've noticed the following patterns of color derivation: X=xti 'real/true/very X' X-s^abe 'dark X' X=egaN 'like X' (typically lighter) noun-X 'the X of noun' Some of these patterns seem to occur in lexicalizations, but I don't recall the particular examples and it's hard to tell when colors are investigated only by eliciting translations of the glossing language. Colorchip investigations are supposed to be the best way, I guess, though just asking what the colors are is probably better than asking for translations. It might not be any better today, with knowledge of English so complete everywhere. Well intentioned, quite fluent speakers might still be thinking, "How would I translate English X?" There's one more pattern involving a verb that escapes me at the moment. Siouan color systems generally consist of opposed 'dark' and 'light' terms, and then a set something like 'black', 'white', 'red', 'grue', 'yellow', 'gray'. The last term if examined carefully (in my case only in Omaha written sources) should turn out to also mean things like 'pink' or 'light purple/violet', 'tan', and so on. It is somewhat atypical typologically to have a 'gray' term in sets like the above, but there is a minority pattern in which there is this extra term for leftover light colors added to black/white/red/grue/yellow. Dorsey always carefully lists a term for 'elk-colored' in his Dhegiha fieldwork, but I'm blanking the term. I think it was derived. From VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA Wed Sep 8 17:07:52 1999 From: VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA (VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 12:07:52 -0500 Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting Message-ID: > Thanks. Perhaps then it is extremely old in Siouan languages. If there are > any scholars of contiguous families (Algonkian, Muskogean, etc.) on the list, > would you say that shifting was similarly lexicalized in these families? > > Jess Tauber > zylogy at aol.com In Algonquian, in Cree, a change of t to c is required (= a productive rule) throughout any noun that acquires the diminutive suffix -is: atim 'dog', acimosis 'puppy', awaasis 'child', nicawaasimisak 'my children' -- in the latter example, -t- normally follows possessive prefixes, like ni- 'my', before a vowel, but even that affixed t has to change to c because the word has -is, cf. astotin 'hat', nitastotin 'my hat'. Other Algonquian languages don't don't do as Cree does, but t~c correspondences in cognates suggest they may have done something similar formerly: Kickapoo mecemooha, Mesquakie metemooha 'old woman', Kickapoo and Mesquakie cahkw-, Ojibwe takkw- 'short'. The -VVh- in Kickapoo and Mesquakie is another diminutive suffix, and 'short' is obviously diminutive in meaning. Paul From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Thu Sep 9 15:17:12 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:17:12 -0500 Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting In-Reply-To: <856eed21.2506c498@aol.com> Message-ID: > Yuman there are also ideophones, though fewer in number, aug/dim > shifts seem more limited to quality terms (and derived nominals) than > in Siouan. Given a putative relationship between Siouan and Hokan, > perhaps shifting goes back to before the current families evolved. I don't think it's legitimate scholarship to try to establish "universals" by appealing to mysterious, hypothetical "deep" relationships (especially those as long-abandoned as "Hokan-Siouan"). The data show that within Siouan the diminutive and related "little old lady" palatal replacements are all innovations (restricted to very specific subgroups and languages). I guess what I'm saying is that the "universal" that such replacements represent ancient derivational affixes ... isn't. I.e., isn't really universal. But there is nothing wrong with "tendencies." Bob From Zylogy at aol.com Thu Sep 9 15:26:01 1999 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 11:26:01 EDT Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting Message-ID: Sorry, didn't mean to imply that I believe in hypothetical relationships. Just how old is Siouan? Anyone have an idea what might therefore have led to innovative use of sound symbolism? Just want to get a picture of what the people who've actually worked with the languages feel in the case. Thanks. Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Sep 9 18:31:00 1999 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 13:31:00 -0500 Subject: MANDAN Message-ID: A letter dated 6 Oct. 1739 from Beauharnois to Maurepas (L. Burpee ed. 1927 _Jrnls. & Letters of de la Vérendrye_ 364) says "vous verrez..par l'extrait du journal de cet officier [de la Vérendrye] qui est cy joint, qu'il a pénétré chez une nation, que les Assiniboels nomment Mantannes" I haven't found a place where de la V. states explicitly that "Mantanne" is an Assiniboin name, but it's pretty clear from the context that that's the case. De la V., in his journal for 1738 (ibid. 297-8) says: "pour venir avec moy dans l'automne à la Descouverte des mantannes que si deuant on apeloit ouachipouanne selon les monsony, Courtchouatte, [selon] Les Crix" The first name may be Cree waciypwa:n, lit. 'mountain Sioux' (where pwa:n is the same element as in "Assiniboine"). The second, also written Koüathéattes, is the same as Cree Coworttaiuck and Ojibway Cowathewog (pl.; in B. Gough ed. 1992 _Jrnl. A. Henry Younger_ II. 393). From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Thu Sep 9 19:18:02 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:18:02 -0500 Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Just how old is Siouan? Anyone have an idea what might therefore have led to > innovative use of sound symbolism? I think those of us interested in the time depth are generally working in a framework of 3 to 4 K years. The better-based glottochronological studies are also in that ball park, if you feel that's a plus. Loanword studies are in the same ball park. That's about as good as one can do at present. The kind of systematic fricative symbolism (which is NOT augment/dimin. symbolism) found in Siouan is primarily a Mississippi Valley Siouan (MVS) phenomenon that is much much less productive outside that subgroup. Nonetheless, it is present to a degree. Because of general lack of cognacy outside of MVS, I tend to think it was poorly represented earlier and became semi-productive in MVS. Nevertheless, there are traces of the s/sh 'black/dark' pair in Yuchi, which has both s/sh variants. The farther back you go, the poorer the attestation of the s/sh/x symbolism. There is some additional evidence that there is a strong geographical component in this. Muskogean has a similar symbolism. I did a paper on it once upon a time. I'm not in a position to reach my notes at the moment, but there are numerous groups like: fama sama shama hama with references to striking a blow at a time or ringing, etc. The interesting thing is that productivity is very good in Choctaw and Chickasaw (in, yes, you guessed it) the Mississippi Valley. But it grades off to the East in Alabama and Koasati and is barely present in Creek (Muskogee). And, again, there is just no suggestion that the fricatives that carry the symbolism are in any way old derivational prefixes. Hope this helps. Bob From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Thu Sep 9 19:22:27 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:22:27 -0500 Subject: MANDAN In-Reply-To: <37D7FCE4.8073766B@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: > "pour venir avec moy dans l'automne � la Descouverte des mantannes que > si deuant on apeloit ouachipouanne selon les monsony, Courtchouatte, > [selon] Les Crix" Interesting citations. Just to muddy the waters, ouachipouanne also resembles the name Chipewyan, which attaches to an Athapaskan-speaking group. I wonder if there's any connection? Bob From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Sep 9 20:02:55 1999 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 15:02:55 -0500 Subject: MANDAN / CHIPEWYAN Message-ID: "Robert L. Rankin" wrote: > Just to muddy the waters, ouachipouanne also resembles the name Chipewyan, > which attaches to an Athapaskan-speaking group. I wonder if there's any > connection? CHIPEWYAN is from Cree ci:pwaya:n (where c = c hacek) '(those who have) pointed skins or hides' (HNAI VI. 283). Can anyone tell me if there is an Assiniboine dictionary? Thanks, Alan From munro at ucla.edu Thu Sep 9 20:06:01 1999 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 13:06:01 -0700 Subject: MANDAN / CHIPEWYAN Message-ID: Doug Parks is compiling an Assiniboine dictionary. Pam From rwd0002 at unt.edu Thu Sep 9 21:21:43 1999 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (Reuse Willem J De) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 16:21:43 -0500 Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting In-Reply-To: <639a37fd.24845a30@aol.com> Message-ID: Some comments regarding the sound-symbolic shifts recently discussed. The mostly diminutive s/sh symbolism is extremely widespread across languages of the world, and is often productive. What is harder to find cross-linguistically, and therefore more interesting from a comparative point of view, is the three degree symbolism one finds in Lakota s/sh/x, for example. In Santiago del Estero Quechua (cf. my 1986 IJAL article), there is a lot of lexicalized as well as some productive s/sh symbolism (which exists as well as in other Quechua and other South American languages), but I only found one case of three degree symbolism, reminiscent of the Lakota; this was the triplet: asna- to smell bad ashna- to stink axna- to stink really bad I don't know if any other words, or any other Quechua languages do this; it would be interesting to survey this sort of three degree symbolism in the Americas (and indeed across the world). Willem de Reuse rwd0002 at unt.edu Dept. of English University of North Texas From Zylogy at aol.com Thu Sep 9 22:12:28 1999 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:12:28 EDT Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting Message-ID: It remains to be seen how widespread this type of shift is in the world outside of the Americas. Some of the "Paleosiberian" languages have a two member shift. In most of Eurasia there is/was rampant use of ideophones, and in some of the languages of the region (mostly on the Pacific Coast) there is often pretty obvious aug/dim splitting (though unlike Siouan), but I'll bet it was rare to find this on established lexical items as normally thought of. I've got data from Mongolian, Manchu, Korean, Japanese, Turkish, etc. representing "Altaic", languages from Munda and Dravidian families, various Mon-Khmer, etc. I haven't yet sorted the data yet from several dozen South American (and about a dozen Mesoamerican) languages, but there didn't seem to be much in the way of shifting. Johanna Nichols (p.c.) has said that aug/dim s.s. seems to be a Pacific Rim phenomenon, and for the most part she may be right, as far as I can see. Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Sep 10 00:24:41 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:24:41 -0600 Subject: MANDAN In-Reply-To: <37D7FCE4.8073766B@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Sep 1999, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > A letter dated 6 Oct. 1739 from Beauharnois to Maurepas (L. Burpee ed. > 1927 _Jrnls. & Letters of de la V�rendrye_ 364) says > > "vous verrez..par l'extrait du journal de cet officier [de la V�rendrye] > qui est cy joint, qu'il a p�n�tr� chez une nation, que les Assiniboels > nomment Mantannes" > > I haven't found a place where de la V. states explicitly that "Mantanne" > is an Assiniboin name, but it's pretty clear from the context that > that's the case. I wonder if it's a French rendition of maNwa'taNnaN as maNtan'. If the form passes through French the first n is just nasalization, not an r/n. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Sep 11 03:32:20 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 21:32:20 -0600 Subject: MANDAN In-Reply-To: <37D408EB.69E0FC00@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Sep 1999, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > McKenzie (early 19c., in Wood & Thiessen 1985, 249) gives the following > names for the Mandan: > > Gros Ventres: arrach bugja wrach baga > Corbeaux (Crow): annach bogu minnach baga > > cf.-- > > Hidatsa adahpakoa [second a short, dot above h] 'Mandan' (Matthews 1877, > 125) > Crow birexba:ke [first e is schwa, a is accented] 'person, people' > (Lowie 1960, 305-6) > > We can thus apparently exclude at least CH as the source of Eng. Mandan. I don't quite know what to make of these. It requires more knowledge of the languages and source than I have. It looks like each row consists of a language/ethnic group name followed by two similar forms. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Sep 11 03:50:59 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 21:50:59 -0600 Subject: MANDAN In-Reply-To: <37D3F741.E23B961E@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Sep 1999, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > Hayden (1862, p. 426) has "The Mandans, or Mi-ah'ta-nes [dot above h; > long e], "people on the bank"(of the river), as they call themselves". > Is this analyzable? Hollow gives waN'pte (ma'pte) as 'river bank' and waN'tah (maNta ~ maNtahe) as river', e.g., MaNta ~ MaNtahe 'river, Missouri River', MaNta saraNks 'Short River', maNtamiNnaNk 'river boat'. Clearly there is some resemblance between Mandan, at least in French and English, and 'river', though the last vowel isn't nasal. The first and last syllable of mi-ah'ta-nes also seem out of place if this is compared to maNta(he). It appears that 'people on/of' is to be understood. My suspicion is that the gloss here is a folk etymology, as the details don't work for the form actually cited. One might wonder to what extent something like maNwadaNniN might reflect maNta, of course. The problem is that there's no immediately obvious account for the structure of the longer form in terms of the shorter one and reasonable other elements or typical Siouan sound proceses. JEK From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Sep 12 14:27:31 1999 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 09:27:31 -0500 Subject: MANDAN Message-ID: John Koontz wrote 10 Sep. 99: > > McKenzie (early 19c., in Wood & Thiessen 1985, 249) gives the following > > names for the Mandan: > > > > Gros Ventres: arrach bugja wrach baga > > Corbeaux (Crow): annach bogu minnach baga > > > > cf.-- > > > > Hidatsa adahpakoa [second a short, dot above h] 'Mandan' (Matthews 1877, > > 125) > > Crow birexba:ke [first e is schwa, a is accented] 'person, people' > > (Lowie 1960, 305-6) > I don't quite know what to make of these. It requires more knowledge of > the languages and source than I have. It looks like each row consists of > a language/ethnic group name followed by two similar forms. Right: the first two "words" in each represent the Crow-Hidatsa name for the Mandan (e.g., Hidatsa adahpakoa), and the second two the CH word for person/people (e.g., Crow birexba:ke). From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Sep 12 15:21:13 1999 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 10:21:13 -0500 Subject: MANDAN Message-ID: Thanks to John for the data from Hollow's dictionary (which I have as yet not received through interlibrary loan). I'm spending far more time on this etymology than I should, and chances are that after all the work--and all the contributions from the Siouan list--I still won't have a secure etym. But we'll certainly know more about the word and, I hope, have enjoyed ourselves along the way. I suppose it's possible that MANDAN represents Mandan MaNta '(Missouri) River' (via an Assiniboine form) + a Fr. suffix -(a)n 'of, pertaining to' (-ain/en in metropolitan French). All pretty speculative, as Bob Rankin has cautioned. Alan From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Sun Sep 12 20:12:32 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:12:32 -0700 Subject: Possible loanwords in Dhegiha. Message-ID: VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA wrote: > Other Algonquian languages don't don't do as Cree does, but t~c correspondences in cognates suggest they may have done something similar formerly: Kickapoo and Mesquakie cahkw-, Ojibwe takkw- 'short'. Cf. Dhegiha languages (except Quapaw?) OP dappa/jappa 'short' OS tahpa/cahpa 'short' KS dappa/jappa 'short' OJ takkw- FX cahkw- both 'short' I'm a little hesitant about proclaiming these unambiguous loanwords from Algonquian to Siouan, but they do fit. The kw > p isn't common in Siouan (which had no kw sequence as far as we know) but it is common throughout the world. The rest fits pretty well phonologically and semantically, and the root isn't known outside of Dhegiha as far as I know (tho' I could easily be corrected on that). Thus it only stands to reason we might look for a source for Dhegiha 'short' outside of Siouan. (Quapaw may also have the word, but I don't recall it and would have to search.) Chiwere should be checked. Bob From VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA Mon Sep 13 13:39:38 1999 From: VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA (VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 08:39:38 -0500 Subject: Possible loanwords in Dhegiha Message-ID: > > Other Algonquian languages don't don't do as Cree does, but t~c cor= > > respondences in cognates suggest they may have done something > > similar formerly: Kickapoo and Mesquakie cahkw-, Ojibwe takkw- > > 'short'. > > Cf. Dhegiha languages (except Quapaw?) > > OP dappa/jappa 'short' > OS tahpa/cahpa 'short' > KS dappa/jappa 'short' > > OJ takkw- > FX cahkw- both 'short' > > I'm a little hesitant about proclaiming these unambiguous > loanwords from Algonquian to Siouan, but they do fit. The kw > p > isn't common in Siouan (which had no kw sequence as far as we > know) but it is common throughout the world. The rest fits > pretty well phonologically and semantically, and the root isn't > known outside of Dhegiha as far as I know (tho' I could easily be > corrected on that). Thus it only stands to reason we might look > for a source for Dhegiha 'short' outside of Siouan. (Quapaw may > also have the word, but I don't recall it and would have to > search.) Chiwere should be checked. > > Bob One problem with borrowing a stative root from an Algonqian language into a Siouan one, or vice versa, is that the Algonquian root, unlike the Siouan, can never be an independent word by itself, but must always be attached to something, most frequently to a suffix meaning 'be' plus a bound pronominal subject, though the latter could sometimes be zero in some of the languages. The root tahkw-/cahkw- as quoted would not normally be cited, recognized, or even considered pronounceable by native speakers of these languages. 'be' in Algonquian is fashionably irregular, but not in the Indo-European way, where the suppletive alternants are conditioned by person of subject, tense, and mode. In Algonquian, the suppletive alternants of 'be' are conditioned by gender of subject, and then especially by root, that is, as if by the predicate adjective from the Indo-European point of view. So typically tahkw-/cahkw- will be encountered with a 'be' suffix followed by a third singular suffix; I list below the forms that make a statement (= independent or indicative forms) followed by the forms that modify a noun (= participles or relative forms) after a slash: Mesquakie (animate) cahkwiihiwa / ceehkwiihita M (inanimate) cahkonoohiwi / ceehkonoohiki Kickapoo (an.) cahkwiihia / ceehkwiihita K (in.) cahkwaahenwi / ceehkwaaheki Ojibwe (an.) takkoosi / teekkoosit or kaa takkoosit O (in.) takkwaa / teekkwaak or kaa takkwaak Cree (an.) tahkosiw / kaa tahkosit C (in.) tahkwaaw / kaa tahkwaak The languages disagree among themselves about the irregularities. Nevertheless, without going into further convoluted Algonquian detail on a Siouan list, I think a case could be made for the Cree and Ojibwe inanimate forms being old, and the Kickapoo cahkwaahenwi is just a diminutive of the same thing, based on *cahkwaai or *tahkwaai. If these full words are the source of the Dhegiha ones, they may also explain the a at the end of dappa, jappa, etc. (Anyone who wants the convoluted Algonquian detail can e-mail me for it.) Paul From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Sep 13 15:28:11 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 09:28:11 -0600 Subject: Possible loanwords in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: <01JFWYX3VX4Y9PPF70@BrandonU.CA> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 1999 VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA wrote: Bob Rankin's hesitant suggestion: > > Cf. Dhegiha languages (except Quapaw?) > > > > OP dappa/jappa 'short' ... > > OJ takkw- > > FX cahkw- both 'short' > > One problem with borrowing a stative root from an Algonqian language into a > Siouan one, or vice versa, is that the Algonquian root, unlike the Siouan, can > never be an independent word by itself, but must always be attached to > something, most frequently to a suffix meaning 'be' plus a bound pronominal > subject, though the latter could sometimes be zero in some of the languages. > The root tahkw-/cahkw- as quoted would not normally be cited, recognized, or > even considered pronounceable by native speakers of these languages. ... > So typically tahkw-/cahkw- will be encountered with a 'be' suffix > followed by a third singular suffix; ... ... > Kickapoo (an.) cahkwiihia / ceehkwiihita > K (in.) cahkwaahenwi / ceehkwaaheki ... It's a very interesting question how borrowing of a verb root between an Algonquian and a Siouan language would work. All the borrowings I'm aware of are nouns or at least manifest as nouns in Siouan. I'd expect some invariant simple form, not the extracted root. If so, that would be a problem here. The Dhegiha form suggests underlying PS *taCpa, where C is some stop (t or k in the context) or preaspiration. Typically Dhegiha tense stops (CC or hC) correspond to Dakotan aspirates (Ch), and *hC is reconstructed or to stop-stop clusters C1C2 in Dakotan, with assimilation being to C2, though tk and kt both end up tt ~ ht. Siouan stative stems are typically of the form (C)CV(C), with e ~ a added. The vowel varies with the language, and if there is some form of ablaut in the language, it may alternate withina language. The formant -ka often occurs, too, as with *htaN-ka 'big', and if -ka is added to a C-final form *ka or *h-ka (after -h#) may occur. I have seen *-riN as a formant, too, I guess. From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Mon Sep 13 16:45:29 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:45:29 -0500 Subject: Possible loanwords in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: <01JFWYX3VX4Y9PPF70@BrandonU.CA> Message-ID: > One problem with borrowing a stative root from an Algonqian language > into a Siouan one, or vice versa, is that the Algonquian root, unlike > the Siouan, can never be an independent word by itself,... Paul's obviously right. However, the several Algonquian loans into Siouan that have been spotted so far (mostly by John Koontz), like 'bow', seem to show that Siouan speakers grabbed the first two Algonquian syllables and the rest of the (huge, long) word went out the window. So, in fact, we can all be right. Bob From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Mon Sep 13 17:00:58 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:00:58 -0500 Subject: Possible loanwords in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The Dhegiha form suggests underlying PS *taCpa, where C is some stop > (t or k in the context) or preaspiration. Suggestion: Let's check Chiwere (and poss. Winnebago) for possible related forms. I'm out of circulation with a new right hip and away from many of my sources, so can someone (Jimm?) look up the possible forms of this stem in Good Tracks' dictionary? The forms to check would mean something like 'short' and are: dapa dape tapa tape dakwa dakwe dagwa dagwe takwa, etc. Anything? Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Sep 13 18:04:40 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:04:40 -0600 Subject: Possible loanwords in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Robert L. Rankin wrote: > Paul's obviously right. However, the several Algonquian loans into Siouan > that have been spotted so far (mostly by John Koontz), like 'bow', seem to > show that Siouan speakers grabbed the first two Algonquian syllables and > the rest of the (huge, long) word went out the window. So, in fact, we > can all be right. Grabbing the first two syllables, with some syncope, is a fair assessment, though the words in question weren't enormously long in the fairly secure cases, and only lose about two syllables from syncope and ending loss. In general the words seem to be subjected to some sort of Siouanization in phonology (of course), with some modification based on a pseudo-Siouan analysis of the morphology, e.g., 'cucurbit' loses its initial e (perhaps taken as a demonstrative?). In that particular case I'm not absolutely sure which direction the loan went - i.e., it may have been out of a third language presently unknown. In both 'bow' (cf. Omaha-Ponca maNde and Wi maNaNc^ku) and 'rattlesnake' (cf. Omaha-Ponca s^ekki) the animate -a is deleted, which is odd, as this has a nice structural parallel (if not a semantic one) in Siouan. I'm inclined to wonder if some of the borrowing occurred long enough ago that what are now grammatical morphemes in Algonquian languages (e.g., animate singular -a) might have been more segmentable enclitic articles. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Sep 13 21:25:03 1999 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 16:25:03 -0500 Subject: etymology of Apsa'alooka Message-ID: Maximilian's _Travels_ (1843, p. 174; p. 352 in v. 22 of Thwaites' _Early Western Travels_): "The Crows are called by the Mandans, Hahderuka, by the Manitaries, Haideroka; they..call their own tribe Apsaruka." Charles McKenzie's journal (1805, p. 248 in Wood & Thiessen _Early Fur Trade_): The [Corbeaux] Nation is in two Tribes Kegh-chy-Sa and Hey-re-ro-ka" [and in a variant narrative, "Kegh chy ta and Hen ne no ka"] Bob Rankin's -ro:k-a/e again. Can Randy decipher the rest? Alan From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Tue Sep 14 03:02:13 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 22:02:13 -0500 Subject: Possible loanwords in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Note: Dorsey's Quapaw lexical file did have "tappa" (my orthography) but, oddly, labels it an "Osage loan". It fits Quapaw perfectly -- how could he know? And it turned out I do have Jimm's dictionary here at home. I couldn't find cognates or analogs. Bob From rwd0002 at unt.edu Tue Sep 14 20:12:19 1999 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (Reuse Willem J De) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 15:12:19 -0500 Subject: How widespread is Sound symbolism In-Reply-To: <639a37fd.24845a30@aol.com> Message-ID: Responding to Jess Tauber's message of 9/9/99. When I said that diminutive s/sh symbolism is extremely widespread, I had in mind the Spanish hypocoristics where /ch/ replaces /s/, diminutive palatalizations in Basque, /s/ to /sh/ shift in Lule, an extinct language of northern central Argentina. It might be more common around the Pacific rim, but there are plenty of other places where it can be encountered. Willem de Reuse From Zylogy at aol.com Tue Sep 14 21:41:37 1999 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 17:41:37 EDT Subject: How widespread is Sound symbolism Message-ID: Just a note: it may be possible that there is a developmental implicational hierarchy behind the aug/dim observations. Using Trubetzkoyan/Jakobsonian features as a jumping off point, it seems that "acute" phonemes are far more commonly shifted, crosslinguistically, than the corresponding "graves". Even in the most elaborated system I know of, that of the Chinookan languages, the system isn't completely extended to all the graves. One might even be able to suggest that the presence of shifting in graves implies shifts in acutes. It would be interesting to look at the data from Boas' Dakota again to see whether /s/ and /sh/ were more common than corresponding /x/ in shifted forms statistically. Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Tue Sep 14 21:59:19 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:59:19 -0500 Subject: How widespread is Sound symbolism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > would be interesting to look at the data from Boas' Dakota again to > see whether /s/ and /sh/ were more common than corresponding /x/ in > shifted forms statistically. I think you'll find that if only two of the three places of articulation participate in symbolic sets (NOT aug./dim. symbolism, but the "real" pan-Siouan phenomenon), that it will the the dental and palatal. There may be a few exceptions, but that's how it seems to me. Bob From Zylogy at aol.com Wed Sep 15 00:15:51 1999 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:15:51 EDT Subject: How widespread is Sound symbolism Message-ID: Didn't Boas also mention in passing some examples of an h' or something to that effect? Would this have been the rarest member of the series, and perhaps corresponding to labials(?) in semantics? It's been a long time since I looked at those materials. Perhaps I should start thinking of this form of symbolism as something else than augmentative/diminutive. Can you even really consider it shifting? Given that /x/ seems rarer (and more derivative) than /s/ and /sh/, what about these last? Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Sep 15 04:55:06 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 22:55:06 -0600 Subject: How widespread is Sound symbolism In-Reply-To: <620a0136.25103f37@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Sep 1999 Zylogy at aol.com wrote: > Didn't Boas also mention in passing some examples of an h' or something to > that effect? I'm not familiar with the reference, but if that's a h-overdot, then it's the same as the x - just different orthographies. JEK From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Sep 15 16:28:53 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 09:28:53 -0700 Subject: How widespread is Sound symbolism Message-ID: > > Didn't Boas also mention in passing some examples of an h' or something to that effect? > > I'm not familiar with the reference, but if that's a h-overdot, then it's the same as the x - just different orthographies. All fricatives are elegible to participate. s sh x z zh gh [gamma] s' sh' x' We've just been using the VL set as examples. I don't recall if there are any "fully functional" glottalized sets or not, but they are potentially there. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Sep 15 16:15:02 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:15:02 -0600 Subject: How widespread is Sound symbolism In-Reply-To: <37DFC945.E15CE920@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Robert L. Rankin wrote: > All fricatives are elegible to participate. > > s sh x > z zh gh [gamma] > s' sh' x' > > We've just been using the VL set as examples. I don't recall if there > are any "fully functional" glottalized sets or not, but they are > potentially there. I believe there's a case in Omaha-Ponca with a term meaning 'hollow, depression' that involves the glottalized set. It's interesting because, of course, *x? becomes just ? in Omaha-Ponca. From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Sun Sep 19 08:14:00 1999 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (SHEA KATHLEEN DORETTE) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 03:14:00 -0500 Subject: How widespread is Sound symbolism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Omaha-Ponca has the pair s?adhe 'salty' and x?adhe 'sour,' which I think is an example of sound symbolism involving the non-contiguous sounds s? and x? of the glottalized fricative series. Apparently, the word sh?adhe doesn't exist. (I checked with a couple of speakers.) I haven't been reading the entire discussion about the origin of the names of various tribes, but I did glance at the comments about the name for "Comanche" in O-P, ppada~kka, which I'm told by Ponca speakers means "hooked nose." This could be a folk etymology, however. I wonder if the signs used for tribes' names in Plains sign language would shed some light on their origins or if the signs, too, might be the result of folk etymologies. Kathy Shea On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Koontz John E wrote: > On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Robert L. Rankin wrote: > > All fricatives are elegible to participate. > > > > s sh x > > z zh gh [gamma] > > s' sh' x' > > > > We've just been using the VL set as examples. I don't recall if there > > are any "fully functional" glottalized sets or not, but they are > > potentially there. > > I believe there's a case in Omaha-Ponca with a term meaning 'hollow, > depression' that involves the glottalized set. It's interesting because, > of course, *x? becomes just ? in Omaha-Ponca. > > From ahartley at d.umn.edu Tue Sep 21 01:19:50 1999 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:19:50 -0500 Subject: Siouan personal names Message-ID: For anyone interested, there is a list of 8 Osage and 10 Kansa personal names (in Spanish (?) orthography and with French translations) from a Spanish document of 1795 printed, in English translation, in A. P. Nasatir 1952 _Before Lewis and Clark_ vol. I, p. 327. From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Tue Sep 21 16:16:30 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:16:30 -0700 Subject: Siouan personal names Message-ID: Alan, Thanks for the info. Bob Alan H. Hartley wrote: > > For anyone interested, there is a list of 8 Osage and 10 Kansa personal > names (in Spanish (?) orthography and with French translations) from a > Spanish document of 1795 printed, in English translation, in A. P. > Nasatir 1952 _Before Lewis and Clark_ vol. I, p. 327. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Sep 21 15:17:51 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:17:51 -0600 Subject: Siouan personal names In-Reply-To: <37E7AF5E.4883021F@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Sep 1999, Robert L. Rankin wrote: > Thanks for the info. > > Alan H. Hartley wrote: > > > > For anyone interested, there is a list of 8 Osage and 10 Kansa personal > > names (in Spanish (?) orthography and with French translations) from a > > Spanish document of 1795 printed, in English translation, in A. P. > > Nasatir 1952 _Before Lewis and Clark_ vol. I, p. 327. In Nasatir or Houck (both unfortunately packed away) there is also a reference to the Omaha name Waz^iNga Sabe 'Blackbird' (literally 'black bird', but referring to the raven), spelled Wajinga Saby, at about the same date, in connection with a treaty with the Spanish authorities. I think the gloss is pajaro negro. I hadn't noticed the Osage and Kansa names. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Tue Sep 21 18:55:17 1999 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 13:55:17 -0500 Subject: Siouan personal names Message-ID: If anyone has trouble getting hold of Nasatir, let me know and I'll type out the list of names in e-mail. Alan From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Fri Sep 24 15:32:39 1999 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 10:32:39 -0500 Subject: Fw: post-secondary directory Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Mark Awakuni-Swetland To: Siouan List Date: Friday, September 24, 1999 9:08 AM Subject: post-secondary directory 24 Sept 1999 Hello Folks: At the risk of sounding completely uninformed: Would anyone know if there is a directory or inventory somewhere of post-secondary institutions offering (currently or recent past) Siouan languages? Actually that should more usefully read "... offering any Native language." Or am I faced with soliciting information from each institution starting with the Great Plains region and working my way outward? I am trying to get a handle on what is "out there" as I work on the University of Nebraska's plans to develop an Omaha language series. Thanks! Mark Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Lecturer Department of Anthropology University of Nebraska Bessey Hall 132 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 Office 402-472-3455 Dept. 402-472-2411 FAX 402-472-9642 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Sep 24 21:07:30 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:07:30 -0600 Subject: Fw: post-secondary directory In-Reply-To: <001c01bf06a2$08e42020$79345d81@mark.unl.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Sep 1999, Mark Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > Would anyone know if there is a directory or inventory somewhere of > post-secondary institutions offering (currently or recent past) Siouan > languages? Actually that should more usefully read "... offering any > Native language." Or am I faced with soliciting information from each > institution starting with the Great Plains region and working my way > outward? The Linguistic Society of America publishes a directory of linguistics programs in the US and Canada that includes an index by languages of uncommonly taught languages. Check with the UNL library to see if they have copies of this directory. The LSA site is http://www.lsadc.org, but it didn't seem to include this part of the listing when I checked it quickly. You can also check for references at the SSILA site: http://trc2.ucdavis.edu/ssila/ in http://trc2.ucdavis.edu/ssila/learning.stm. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Sep 1 02:37:18 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 20:37:18 -0600 Subject: Is Shoebox4.0 good for Dakotan? In-Reply-To: <199908311808_MC2-831E-B3AE@compuserve.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Aug 1999, Carolyn wrote: > After experimenting with Shoebox 2.0 parser (ITP) just to the point of > getting it to work and building a small data base, I abandoned its use > entirely due to too much surface variation in Osage. I did use Shoebox > happily for dictionary items as a simple database and found it excellent > (except for the absence of ability to print!) The surface variation problem Carolyn refers to for Osage was partly due to variation in the transcriptions, preservation of phonetic detail due to the special circumstances of Osage, and so on, and not just the usual allomorphy of a MV Siouan language (somewhat more in Dhegiha than in Dakotan). Current versions of Shoebox have some simple printing facilities, I believe, and there is now a nice separate formatting tool that takes the Shoebox database as input and creates an RTF file plus a Word style file. The two of these can be read into Word (for Windows) and printed. This approach allows you to convert your dictionary database into a printed dictionary, for example. I'm not sure how powerful the facilities are for interconverting between fields and independent paragraphs or for making various substitutions and conversions. We've found facilities of that nature to be important in working with the Comparative Siouan Dictionary. From Rgraczyk at aol.com Fri Sep 3 16:50:02 1999 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 12:50:02 EDT Subject: etymology of Apsa'alooka Message-ID: In following the discussion on the etymologies of Mandan and Hidatsa, I was struck by the statement, "The Hidatsa were known by a number of terms, including Gros Ventres/Big Bellies, Minataries and a collective term 'Mirokac' which included the River Crows. 'Mirokac' looks very much like the Crow term bi'ilukaa, which the Crows use to refer to themselves, and which is sometimes glossed 'our side, our people, we Crows'. The glosses suggest that the term includes the 1 person stative pronoun bii-. This term is obviously cognate with the Hidatsa; I presume that the 'c' in 'Mirokac' is the Hi declarative sentence-final marker. I am wondering if luukaa/roka is also found as the last part of Apsa'alooka. Crows usually say that this means 'children of the long-beaked bird', i.e., apa' 'nose, beak' + isa'a 'big' plus looka 'children'. I have always felt that this is a folk etymology, since the word for children in Crow is da'aka, not do'oka. In other words, the vowels do not match very well. Interestingly, there is another word that contains a similar element: baawilo'oka or baawulo'oka 'virgin'. In all three cases, looka/luuka refers to persons. Does anyone know of a Siouan cognate for this element? Randy From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Fri Sep 3 23:46:52 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 18:46:52 -0500 Subject: etymology of Apsa'alooka In-Reply-To: <402f3e44.2501563a@aol.com> Message-ID: > In all three cases, looka/luuka refers to persons. Does anyone know > of a Siouan cognate for this element? *wi-ro:k-a/e with the root /ro:k/ 'man'. This really is restricted to MALEs in most Siouan languages however and contrasts with a term for 'female'. The PERSON term is different and not resemblant. Maybe I'll think of something more likely. Bob From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Sep 6 17:17:53 1999 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 12:17:53 -0500 Subject: MANDAN Message-ID: Hayden (1862, p. 426) has "The Mandans, or Mi-ah'ta-nes [dot above h; long e], "people on the bank"(of the river), as they call themselves". Is this analyzable? And (p. 428) "Nearly all of the Mandans speak the Minnitaree language, and many of them are familiar with the Dakota and Arikara tongues, but very few if any of the surrounding tribes have acquired that of the Mandans." Alan From Zylogy at aol.com Mon Sep 6 18:22:57 1999 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 14:22:57 EDT Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting Message-ID: Is there someone out there who has any idea when various sound-symbolic shifts in Siouan languages became unproductive- that is, lexicalized- in most of the languages? Also, family-level cross-linguistic work seems to indicate that most of such augmentive/diminutive shifts originate as bound morphology. Has any study been done to determine etymological sources within Siouan? Thanks. Sincerely, Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Sep 6 18:33:15 1999 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 13:33:15 -0500 Subject: MANDAN Message-ID: McKenzie (early 19c., in Wood & Thiessen 1985, 249) gives the following names for the Mandan: Gros Ventres: arrach bugja wrach baga Corbeaux (Crow): annach bogu minnach baga cf.-- Hidatsa adahpakoa [second a short, dot above h] 'Mandan' (Matthews 1877, 125) Crow birexba:ke [first e is schwa, a is accented] 'person, people' (Lowie 1960, 305-6) We can thus apparently exclude at least CH as the source of Eng. Mandan. From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Mon Sep 6 18:45:59 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 13:45:59 -0500 Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting In-Reply-To: <5807348.25056081@aol.com> Message-ID: > Is there someone out there who has any idea when various > sound-symbolic shifts in Siouan languages became unproductive- that > is, lexicalized- in most of the languages? There's no real evidence that it ever was anything but lexical. I guess I've heard that Dakotan speakers can sometimes play games with the concept. > Also, family-level cross-linguistic work seems to indicate that most > of such augmentive/diminutive shifts originate as bound morphology. Where you find diminutive shift (dental is replaced by palato-alveolar), it is not affixal nor is it possible to reconstruct a point where it was. Kansa examples: dappa 'short' > jappa 'stubby, really short' doba 'some' > joba 'a little bit' Not many examples of this and none reconstructible to proto-Siouan. Bob From Zylogy at aol.com Mon Sep 6 19:19:14 1999 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 15:19:14 EDT Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting Message-ID: Thanks. Perhaps then it is extremely old in Siouan languages. If there are any scholars of contiguous families (Algonkian, Muskogean, etc.) on the list, would you say that shifting was similarly lexicalized in these families? Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Sep 7 18:51:39 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 12:51:39 -0600 Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting In-Reply-To: <5807348.25056081@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 Zylogy at aol.com wrote: > Is there someone out there who has any idea when various sound-symbolic > shifts in Siouan languages became unproductive- that is, lexicalized- in > most of the languages? It's an interesting question whether unproductive and lexicalized are the same thing - at least in this case. The fricative gradation that occurs throughout the family and the affrication that occurs in at least Dhegiha are not in any sense morphological or obligatory, and in Dhegiha the closest to frequent use I've seen is a text or part of a text in which there was a lot of the affrication. I don't recall the details at the moment but I remember it seemed to be associated with a "little old lady" (wa?u zhiNga) speaking. On the other hand, it's not at all clear that all examples of the fricative gradation are inherited, so somebody, somewhere, sometime is manufacturing new examples that catch on and become fixed idioms. It's a form of lexical affixation (nonlinear or superfix or whatever). It seems to be less used (less productive) than instrumental prefixation, for example, but I'm not convinced it's completely unproductive in Dhegiha. I just don't have any idea how productive it is. Other lexical processes of uncertain degree of productivity would include reduplication and spontaneously generated onomatopes or ideophones. I'm pretty sure that things like the locatives, reflexives, datives and suus prefixes are more productive, but I don't have anything but an impression to go on there either. These are quasi grammatical, of course, in Siouan languages, though less so than personal inflection. Some of the fault for not being sure of the degree of productivity here falls on the shoulders of the students of Dhegiha. We haven't been very productive either, I guess. On the other hand, I suspect that it's not really possible to say much on this score for any language in the family, including the Dakotan dialects or Crow. The truth is, very little has been done on such questions, and the best lexicons for Siouan languages are still at a quite primitive state of development, including those for Dakotan. I can remember David Rood agonizing over issues like this when the new Lakota dictionary project got under way. (It's currently on hold.) By the way, another related phenomena might be bl ~ gm alternations in Dakotan. There's no real etymolopgical source for gm. > Also, family-level cross-linguistic work seems to > indicate that most of such augmentive/diminutive shifts originate as bound > morphology. Like Dakotan =la DIMINUTIVE - here in Teton form. I think this is derived from =la(ka) the conjugated enclitic that means 'consider as'. Most of the rest of Mississippi Valley seems to rely on appending their equivalent of 'be little' to the noun. I think this occurs some in Dakotan, too. > Has any study been done to determine etymological sources within > Siouan? I'm not aware of any investigations into the origin of fricative gradation (or any of the other phenomena mentioned) in Siouan. I've always assumed, however, that it originated in precisely the form in which it now exists. If there is something affixal underlying all this, then it's very old and I suspect there's nothing left of it. Howver, Wes Jones has discussed (in a SACC/MALC paper, published in the MALC proceedings) an apparent pattern in Proto-Siouan of forming new roots from old by means of various extensions (initial or final). There are enough examples to make it seem that something was going on, but the basis of the system is completely obscure - i.e., the extensions seem arbitrary - at this point. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Sep 7 18:55:25 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 12:55:25 -0600 Subject: MANDAN In-Reply-To: <37D3F741.E23B961E@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Sep 1999, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > Hayden (1862, p. 426) has "The Mandans, or Mi-ah'ta-nes [dot above h; > long e], "people on the bank"(of the river), as they call themselves". > Is this analyzable? It looks like a mangling of Minitare, with the first r (the n in Mini) missing. I'll have to look up 'bank' later. From Zylogy at aol.com Tue Sep 7 19:42:16 1999 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 15:42:16 EDT Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting Message-ID: Thanks for the responses. In comparing what has been done concerning augmentative/diminutive shifts across North America, it becomes pretty clear that Chinookan and Sahaptian had the most elaborated systems. These, however, were mostly limited to nominal forms, and much more rarely occurred on verbal forms. Interestingly, many of the "Penutian" languages in this area relied on true ideophones to specify manner on a very much reduced verb stock. These ideophones are quite simple in structure, and relatively few in number (and they don't exhibit shifting) which seems to be true of most verb-initial languages with case (or which had it) as well as many primarily head-marking verb-final languages. Word order here can be pragmatic (and statistical) or grammatical- so I'm including "free" order langs. The picture in Siouan, at least to me, resembles to some extent an extrapolation beyond the situation between Pomoan and Yuman. In Kashaya Pomo, a good percentage of normal verb roots (especially those descriptive of manners of action) can appear stripped of morphology as ideophones (or conversely, one could think of the roots as derivative- it's difficult to know which process came first). Aug/dim shifts per se are not evident. In Yuman there are also ideophones, though fewer in number, aug/dim shifts seem more limited to quality terms (and derived nominals) than in Siouan. Given a putative relationship between Siouan and Hokan, perhaps shifting goes back to before the current families evolved. From what little I've seen Siouan has essentially no ideophones. Perhaps aug/dim shifts originated on stative verbs, while ideophones describe more actions with recognizable termini. In any case the Siouan shifts resemble Yuman more than anything else on the continent. Speculations? Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Tue Sep 7 20:51:22 1999 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 14:51:22 -0600 Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting In-Reply-To: <5807348.25056081@aol.com> Message-ID: I can't give you the details from my memory, but for some of the Lakhota speakers I've worked with, the symbolism is alive and well and used for both fun and expressive purposes. I don't believe that finding a bound morphological origin for it is likely, however, since it affects (synchronically) medial fricatives as well as initial ones. I don't have any notes on this, but I would be glad to try to elicit some data if you're interested and have lots of time -- all the speakers I regularly work with are away from Boulder at the moment, and I'm on sabbatical and otherwise preoccupied. Let me know how urgently you want the data, if at all. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado Campus Box 295 Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 Zylogy at aol.com wrote: > Is there someone out there who has any idea when various sound-symbolic > shifts in Siouan languages became unproductive- that is, lexicalized- in > most of the languages? Also, family-level cross-linguistic work seems to > indicate that most of such augmentive/diminutive shifts originate as bound > morphology. Has any study been done to determine etymological sources within > Siouan? Thanks. > > Sincerely, > Jess Tauber > zylogy at aol.com > From Zylogy at aol.com Tue Sep 7 20:59:29 1999 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 16:59:29 EDT Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting Message-ID: New data would be wonderful. I'd also be interested in whether or not there are sound symbolic ideophonic forms used at all by modern speakers (with or without associated auxiliaries)- here it would also be of interest to know whether such forms are Siouan in origin or French/English. Thanks, and take your time. I'm up to my ears in data from all over the planet. Best, Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Tue Sep 7 23:55:54 1999 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (SHEA KATHLEEN DORETTE) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 18:55:54 -0500 Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In working on Ponca, I found a couple of examples that might be interesting. One of the speakers I work with tells me that the (Omaha-)Ponca word for 'blue' is ttu, while the word for 'green' is ccu (with c standing for an alveo-palatal voiceless affricate that patterns with the stops p, t, and k, as does j with b, d, and g in Ponca). Since Siouan languages typically have one word for blue and green, ccu seems to be an innovation. Another example that I came across recently when I was talking to a native Ponca speaker at the Ponca Powwow recently is what I'll term a kind of "baby talk," or what an older person might use with a younger person I was told: dhaecHewadhe' 'You poor thing!' (with dh representing a voiced dental resonant, H aspiration--a raised h, and ' an accent on the preceding vowel). The ordinary form of this word would be dhaetHewadhe'. The speaker said his grandfather would use the form with cH substituted for tH when speaking to him. I thought I had another example but am not sure of it. I checked with my main consultant, and he confirmed the occasional usage of a special kind of speech by older people with younger. This is probably the same type of speech that John refers to as "little old lady speech," but I need to get more examples. By the way, John Nichols gave an interesting paper at the last WAIL conference about the dilemmas of having to compile a dictionary when there are two competing types of speech in the community--one in use among "younger" (about 20 to 60 years old) speakers and the other among elders. This was in Ojibway, and I think most of the examples involved palatalization in the younger peoples' speech with a consequent re-ordering of phonological rules. (I don't have a copy of his handout with me.) Anyway this is an interesting topic, and I agree with John Koontz that it deserves more study. Kathy Shea On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 Zylogy at aol.com wrote: > > Is there someone out there who has any idea when various sound-symbolic > > shifts in Siouan languages became unproductive- that is, lexicalized- in > > most of the languages? > > It's an interesting question whether unproductive and lexicalized are the > same thing - at least in this case. The fricative gradation that occurs > throughout the family and the affrication that occurs in at least Dhegiha > are not in any sense morphological or obligatory, and in Dhegiha the > closest to frequent use I've seen is a text or part of a text in which > there was a lot of the affrication. I don't recall the details at the > moment but I remember it seemed to be associated with a "little old lady" > (wa?u zhiNga) speaking. > > On the other hand, it's not at all clear that all examples of the > fricative gradation are inherited, so somebody, somewhere, sometime is > manufacturing new examples that catch on and become fixed idioms. It's a > form of lexical affixation (nonlinear or superfix or whatever). It seems > to be less used (less productive) than instrumental prefixation, for > example, but I'm not convinced it's completely unproductive in Dhegiha. I > just don't have any idea how productive it is. Other lexical processes of > uncertain degree of productivity would include reduplication and > spontaneously generated onomatopes or ideophones. I'm pretty sure that > things like the locatives, reflexives, datives and suus prefixes are more > productive, but I don't have anything but an impression to go on there > either. These are quasi grammatical, of course, in Siouan languages, > though less so than personal inflection. > > Some of the fault for not being sure of the degree of productivity here > falls on the shoulders of the students of Dhegiha. We haven't been very > productive either, I guess. On the other hand, I suspect that it's not > really possible to say much on this score for any language in the family, > including the Dakotan dialects or Crow. The truth is, very little has > been done on such questions, and the best lexicons for Siouan languages > are still at a quite primitive state of development, including those for > Dakotan. I can remember David Rood agonizing over issues like this when > the new Lakota dictionary project got under way. (It's currently on > hold.) > > By the way, another related phenomena might be bl ~ gm alternations in > Dakotan. There's no real etymolopgical source for gm. > > > Also, family-level cross-linguistic work seems to > > indicate that most of such augmentive/diminutive shifts originate as bound > > morphology. > > Like Dakotan =la DIMINUTIVE - here in Teton form. I think this is derived > from =la(ka) the conjugated enclitic that means 'consider as'. Most of > the rest of Mississippi Valley seems to rely on appending their equivalent > of 'be little' to the noun. I think this occurs some in Dakotan, too. > > > Has any study been done to determine etymological sources within > > Siouan? > > I'm not aware of any investigations into the origin of fricative gradation > (or any of the other phenomena mentioned) in Siouan. I've always assumed, > however, that it originated in precisely the form in which it now exists. > If there is something affixal underlying all this, then it's very old and > I suspect there's nothing left of it. > > Howver, Wes Jones has discussed (in a SACC/MALC paper, published in the > MALC proceedings) an apparent pattern in Proto-Siouan of forming new roots > from old by means of various extensions (initial or final). There are > enough examples to make it seem that something was going on, but the basis > of the system is completely obscure - i.e., the extensions seem arbitrary > - at this point. > > From jggoodtracks at juno.com Wed Sep 8 14:53:12 1999 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 09:53:12 -0500 Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting Message-ID: For what it is worth in the discussion: Ioway-Otoe has for "Dark= sewe" which seems to have been generated from "thewe= black". The two terms were used by elders. Also, in agreement with other Siouian languages there is "to= blue, green". In contemporary times "tohge ~ na'tohge= like green ~ like green leaves". JimmGT From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Sep 8 15:18:49 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 09:18:49 -0600 Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, SHEA KATHLEEN DORETTE wrote: > In working on Ponca, I found a couple of examples that might be > interesting. More examples, from Omaha-Ponca, trying not to duplicate Kathy or Bob. >>From Dorsey: =xti : =xc^i the enclitic 'very, truely' iNthaN : iNc^haN 'now' : 'right now' (I think this is the proper distinction.) iNc^haNga 'mouse' Ones I got in fieldwork (Omaha): c^c^eska 'short' haNegaNc^he 'dawn' (haN=egaN=the night-like-the) Dorsey often has MaNs^c^iNge(=iN) for 'the Rabbit', but the speakers I dealt with would only accept MaNs^tiNge. Mark Swetland once mentioned to me some c^ forms that had to do with being disheveled, but I'm not positive of their form at the moment. I use s^ and c^ above for the alveo-palatal series. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Sep 8 15:39:13 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 09:39:13 -0600 Subject: Colors (Was Re: augmentative/diminutive shifting) In-Reply-To: <19990908.095617.-121571.16.jggoodtracks@juno.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Jimm G GoodTracks wrote: > Also, in agreement with other Siouian languages there is "to= blue, > green". In contemporary times "tohge ~ na'tohge= like green ~ like green > leaves". In Omaha-Ponca sources I've found innovated distinctions or perhaps simply attempts to render the English distinction for translation: ttu : ttus^abe 'green' : 'blue' ('grue' : 'dark grue') ppez^ettu : ttu 'green' : 'blue' ('grass grue' : 'grue') I think it's Howard (not positive) who complains somewhere that what is called maNhiNttu 'bluestone' is really a sort of green to his eye. Of course, this is pretty typical of Siouan languages. I've noticed the following patterns of color derivation: X=xti 'real/true/very X' X-s^abe 'dark X' X=egaN 'like X' (typically lighter) noun-X 'the X of noun' Some of these patterns seem to occur in lexicalizations, but I don't recall the particular examples and it's hard to tell when colors are investigated only by eliciting translations of the glossing language. Colorchip investigations are supposed to be the best way, I guess, though just asking what the colors are is probably better than asking for translations. It might not be any better today, with knowledge of English so complete everywhere. Well intentioned, quite fluent speakers might still be thinking, "How would I translate English X?" There's one more pattern involving a verb that escapes me at the moment. Siouan color systems generally consist of opposed 'dark' and 'light' terms, and then a set something like 'black', 'white', 'red', 'grue', 'yellow', 'gray'. The last term if examined carefully (in my case only in Omaha written sources) should turn out to also mean things like 'pink' or 'light purple/violet', 'tan', and so on. It is somewhat atypical typologically to have a 'gray' term in sets like the above, but there is a minority pattern in which there is this extra term for leftover light colors added to black/white/red/grue/yellow. Dorsey always carefully lists a term for 'elk-colored' in his Dhegiha fieldwork, but I'm blanking the term. I think it was derived. From VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA Wed Sep 8 17:07:52 1999 From: VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA (VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 12:07:52 -0500 Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting Message-ID: > Thanks. Perhaps then it is extremely old in Siouan languages. If there are > any scholars of contiguous families (Algonkian, Muskogean, etc.) on the list, > would you say that shifting was similarly lexicalized in these families? > > Jess Tauber > zylogy at aol.com In Algonquian, in Cree, a change of t to c is required (= a productive rule) throughout any noun that acquires the diminutive suffix -is: atim 'dog', acimosis 'puppy', awaasis 'child', nicawaasimisak 'my children' -- in the latter example, -t- normally follows possessive prefixes, like ni- 'my', before a vowel, but even that affixed t has to change to c because the word has -is, cf. astotin 'hat', nitastotin 'my hat'. Other Algonquian languages don't don't do as Cree does, but t~c correspondences in cognates suggest they may have done something similar formerly: Kickapoo mecemooha, Mesquakie metemooha 'old woman', Kickapoo and Mesquakie cahkw-, Ojibwe takkw- 'short'. The -VVh- in Kickapoo and Mesquakie is another diminutive suffix, and 'short' is obviously diminutive in meaning. Paul From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Thu Sep 9 15:17:12 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:17:12 -0500 Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting In-Reply-To: <856eed21.2506c498@aol.com> Message-ID: > Yuman there are also ideophones, though fewer in number, aug/dim > shifts seem more limited to quality terms (and derived nominals) than > in Siouan. Given a putative relationship between Siouan and Hokan, > perhaps shifting goes back to before the current families evolved. I don't think it's legitimate scholarship to try to establish "universals" by appealing to mysterious, hypothetical "deep" relationships (especially those as long-abandoned as "Hokan-Siouan"). The data show that within Siouan the diminutive and related "little old lady" palatal replacements are all innovations (restricted to very specific subgroups and languages). I guess what I'm saying is that the "universal" that such replacements represent ancient derivational affixes ... isn't. I.e., isn't really universal. But there is nothing wrong with "tendencies." Bob From Zylogy at aol.com Thu Sep 9 15:26:01 1999 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 11:26:01 EDT Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting Message-ID: Sorry, didn't mean to imply that I believe in hypothetical relationships. Just how old is Siouan? Anyone have an idea what might therefore have led to innovative use of sound symbolism? Just want to get a picture of what the people who've actually worked with the languages feel in the case. Thanks. Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Sep 9 18:31:00 1999 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 13:31:00 -0500 Subject: MANDAN Message-ID: A letter dated 6 Oct. 1739 from Beauharnois to Maurepas (L. Burpee ed. 1927 _Jrnls. & Letters of de la V?rendrye_ 364) says "vous verrez..par l'extrait du journal de cet officier [de la V?rendrye] qui est cy joint, qu'il a p?n?tr? chez une nation, que les Assiniboels nomment Mantannes" I haven't found a place where de la V. states explicitly that "Mantanne" is an Assiniboin name, but it's pretty clear from the context that that's the case. De la V., in his journal for 1738 (ibid. 297-8) says: "pour venir avec moy dans l'automne ? la Descouverte des mantannes que si deuant on apeloit ouachipouanne selon les monsony, Courtchouatte, [selon] Les Crix" The first name may be Cree waciypwa:n, lit. 'mountain Sioux' (where pwa:n is the same element as in "Assiniboine"). The second, also written Ko?ath?attes, is the same as Cree Coworttaiuck and Ojibway Cowathewog (pl.; in B. Gough ed. 1992 _Jrnl. A. Henry Younger_ II. 393). From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Thu Sep 9 19:18:02 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:18:02 -0500 Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Just how old is Siouan? Anyone have an idea what might therefore have led to > innovative use of sound symbolism? I think those of us interested in the time depth are generally working in a framework of 3 to 4 K years. The better-based glottochronological studies are also in that ball park, if you feel that's a plus. Loanword studies are in the same ball park. That's about as good as one can do at present. The kind of systematic fricative symbolism (which is NOT augment/dimin. symbolism) found in Siouan is primarily a Mississippi Valley Siouan (MVS) phenomenon that is much much less productive outside that subgroup. Nonetheless, it is present to a degree. Because of general lack of cognacy outside of MVS, I tend to think it was poorly represented earlier and became semi-productive in MVS. Nevertheless, there are traces of the s/sh 'black/dark' pair in Yuchi, which has both s/sh variants. The farther back you go, the poorer the attestation of the s/sh/x symbolism. There is some additional evidence that there is a strong geographical component in this. Muskogean has a similar symbolism. I did a paper on it once upon a time. I'm not in a position to reach my notes at the moment, but there are numerous groups like: fama sama shama hama with references to striking a blow at a time or ringing, etc. The interesting thing is that productivity is very good in Choctaw and Chickasaw (in, yes, you guessed it) the Mississippi Valley. But it grades off to the East in Alabama and Koasati and is barely present in Creek (Muskogee). And, again, there is just no suggestion that the fricatives that carry the symbolism are in any way old derivational prefixes. Hope this helps. Bob From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Thu Sep 9 19:22:27 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:22:27 -0500 Subject: MANDAN In-Reply-To: <37D7FCE4.8073766B@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: > "pour venir avec moy dans l'automne ? la Descouverte des mantannes que > si deuant on apeloit ouachipouanne selon les monsony, Courtchouatte, > [selon] Les Crix" Interesting citations. Just to muddy the waters, ouachipouanne also resembles the name Chipewyan, which attaches to an Athapaskan-speaking group. I wonder if there's any connection? Bob From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Sep 9 20:02:55 1999 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 15:02:55 -0500 Subject: MANDAN / CHIPEWYAN Message-ID: "Robert L. Rankin" wrote: > Just to muddy the waters, ouachipouanne also resembles the name Chipewyan, > which attaches to an Athapaskan-speaking group. I wonder if there's any > connection? CHIPEWYAN is from Cree ci:pwaya:n (where c = c hacek) '(those who have) pointed skins or hides' (HNAI VI. 283). Can anyone tell me if there is an Assiniboine dictionary? Thanks, Alan From munro at ucla.edu Thu Sep 9 20:06:01 1999 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 13:06:01 -0700 Subject: MANDAN / CHIPEWYAN Message-ID: Doug Parks is compiling an Assiniboine dictionary. Pam From rwd0002 at unt.edu Thu Sep 9 21:21:43 1999 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (Reuse Willem J De) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 16:21:43 -0500 Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting In-Reply-To: <639a37fd.24845a30@aol.com> Message-ID: Some comments regarding the sound-symbolic shifts recently discussed. The mostly diminutive s/sh symbolism is extremely widespread across languages of the world, and is often productive. What is harder to find cross-linguistically, and therefore more interesting from a comparative point of view, is the three degree symbolism one finds in Lakota s/sh/x, for example. In Santiago del Estero Quechua (cf. my 1986 IJAL article), there is a lot of lexicalized as well as some productive s/sh symbolism (which exists as well as in other Quechua and other South American languages), but I only found one case of three degree symbolism, reminiscent of the Lakota; this was the triplet: asna- to smell bad ashna- to stink axna- to stink really bad I don't know if any other words, or any other Quechua languages do this; it would be interesting to survey this sort of three degree symbolism in the Americas (and indeed across the world). Willem de Reuse rwd0002 at unt.edu Dept. of English University of North Texas From Zylogy at aol.com Thu Sep 9 22:12:28 1999 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:12:28 EDT Subject: augmentative/diminutive shifting Message-ID: It remains to be seen how widespread this type of shift is in the world outside of the Americas. Some of the "Paleosiberian" languages have a two member shift. In most of Eurasia there is/was rampant use of ideophones, and in some of the languages of the region (mostly on the Pacific Coast) there is often pretty obvious aug/dim splitting (though unlike Siouan), but I'll bet it was rare to find this on established lexical items as normally thought of. I've got data from Mongolian, Manchu, Korean, Japanese, Turkish, etc. representing "Altaic", languages from Munda and Dravidian families, various Mon-Khmer, etc. I haven't yet sorted the data yet from several dozen South American (and about a dozen Mesoamerican) languages, but there didn't seem to be much in the way of shifting. Johanna Nichols (p.c.) has said that aug/dim s.s. seems to be a Pacific Rim phenomenon, and for the most part she may be right, as far as I can see. Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Sep 10 00:24:41 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:24:41 -0600 Subject: MANDAN In-Reply-To: <37D7FCE4.8073766B@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Sep 1999, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > A letter dated 6 Oct. 1739 from Beauharnois to Maurepas (L. Burpee ed. > 1927 _Jrnls. & Letters of de la V?rendrye_ 364) says > > "vous verrez..par l'extrait du journal de cet officier [de la V?rendrye] > qui est cy joint, qu'il a p?n?tr? chez une nation, que les Assiniboels > nomment Mantannes" > > I haven't found a place where de la V. states explicitly that "Mantanne" > is an Assiniboin name, but it's pretty clear from the context that > that's the case. I wonder if it's a French rendition of maNwa'taNnaN as maNtan'. If the form passes through French the first n is just nasalization, not an r/n. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Sep 11 03:32:20 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 21:32:20 -0600 Subject: MANDAN In-Reply-To: <37D408EB.69E0FC00@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Sep 1999, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > McKenzie (early 19c., in Wood & Thiessen 1985, 249) gives the following > names for the Mandan: > > Gros Ventres: arrach bugja wrach baga > Corbeaux (Crow): annach bogu minnach baga > > cf.-- > > Hidatsa adahpakoa [second a short, dot above h] 'Mandan' (Matthews 1877, > 125) > Crow birexba:ke [first e is schwa, a is accented] 'person, people' > (Lowie 1960, 305-6) > > We can thus apparently exclude at least CH as the source of Eng. Mandan. I don't quite know what to make of these. It requires more knowledge of the languages and source than I have. It looks like each row consists of a language/ethnic group name followed by two similar forms. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Sep 11 03:50:59 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 21:50:59 -0600 Subject: MANDAN In-Reply-To: <37D3F741.E23B961E@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Sep 1999, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > Hayden (1862, p. 426) has "The Mandans, or Mi-ah'ta-nes [dot above h; > long e], "people on the bank"(of the river), as they call themselves". > Is this analyzable? Hollow gives waN'pte (ma'pte) as 'river bank' and waN'tah (maNta ~ maNtahe) as river', e.g., MaNta ~ MaNtahe 'river, Missouri River', MaNta saraNks 'Short River', maNtamiNnaNk 'river boat'. Clearly there is some resemblance between Mandan, at least in French and English, and 'river', though the last vowel isn't nasal. The first and last syllable of mi-ah'ta-nes also seem out of place if this is compared to maNta(he). It appears that 'people on/of' is to be understood. My suspicion is that the gloss here is a folk etymology, as the details don't work for the form actually cited. One might wonder to what extent something like maNwadaNniN might reflect maNta, of course. The problem is that there's no immediately obvious account for the structure of the longer form in terms of the shorter one and reasonable other elements or typical Siouan sound proceses. JEK From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Sep 12 14:27:31 1999 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 09:27:31 -0500 Subject: MANDAN Message-ID: John Koontz wrote 10 Sep. 99: > > McKenzie (early 19c., in Wood & Thiessen 1985, 249) gives the following > > names for the Mandan: > > > > Gros Ventres: arrach bugja wrach baga > > Corbeaux (Crow): annach bogu minnach baga > > > > cf.-- > > > > Hidatsa adahpakoa [second a short, dot above h] 'Mandan' (Matthews 1877, > > 125) > > Crow birexba:ke [first e is schwa, a is accented] 'person, people' > > (Lowie 1960, 305-6) > I don't quite know what to make of these. It requires more knowledge of > the languages and source than I have. It looks like each row consists of > a language/ethnic group name followed by two similar forms. Right: the first two "words" in each represent the Crow-Hidatsa name for the Mandan (e.g., Hidatsa adahpakoa), and the second two the CH word for person/people (e.g., Crow birexba:ke). From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Sep 12 15:21:13 1999 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 10:21:13 -0500 Subject: MANDAN Message-ID: Thanks to John for the data from Hollow's dictionary (which I have as yet not received through interlibrary loan). I'm spending far more time on this etymology than I should, and chances are that after all the work--and all the contributions from the Siouan list--I still won't have a secure etym. But we'll certainly know more about the word and, I hope, have enjoyed ourselves along the way. I suppose it's possible that MANDAN represents Mandan MaNta '(Missouri) River' (via an Assiniboine form) + a Fr. suffix -(a)n 'of, pertaining to' (-ain/en in metropolitan French). All pretty speculative, as Bob Rankin has cautioned. Alan From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Sun Sep 12 20:12:32 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:12:32 -0700 Subject: Possible loanwords in Dhegiha. Message-ID: VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA wrote: > Other Algonquian languages don't don't do as Cree does, but t~c correspondences in cognates suggest they may have done something similar formerly: Kickapoo and Mesquakie cahkw-, Ojibwe takkw- 'short'. Cf. Dhegiha languages (except Quapaw?) OP dappa/jappa 'short' OS tahpa/cahpa 'short' KS dappa/jappa 'short' OJ takkw- FX cahkw- both 'short' I'm a little hesitant about proclaiming these unambiguous loanwords from Algonquian to Siouan, but they do fit. The kw > p isn't common in Siouan (which had no kw sequence as far as we know) but it is common throughout the world. The rest fits pretty well phonologically and semantically, and the root isn't known outside of Dhegiha as far as I know (tho' I could easily be corrected on that). Thus it only stands to reason we might look for a source for Dhegiha 'short' outside of Siouan. (Quapaw may also have the word, but I don't recall it and would have to search.) Chiwere should be checked. Bob From VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA Mon Sep 13 13:39:38 1999 From: VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA (VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 08:39:38 -0500 Subject: Possible loanwords in Dhegiha Message-ID: > > Other Algonquian languages don't don't do as Cree does, but t~c cor= > > respondences in cognates suggest they may have done something > > similar formerly: Kickapoo and Mesquakie cahkw-, Ojibwe takkw- > > 'short'. > > Cf. Dhegiha languages (except Quapaw?) > > OP dappa/jappa 'short' > OS tahpa/cahpa 'short' > KS dappa/jappa 'short' > > OJ takkw- > FX cahkw- both 'short' > > I'm a little hesitant about proclaiming these unambiguous > loanwords from Algonquian to Siouan, but they do fit. The kw > p > isn't common in Siouan (which had no kw sequence as far as we > know) but it is common throughout the world. The rest fits > pretty well phonologically and semantically, and the root isn't > known outside of Dhegiha as far as I know (tho' I could easily be > corrected on that). Thus it only stands to reason we might look > for a source for Dhegiha 'short' outside of Siouan. (Quapaw may > also have the word, but I don't recall it and would have to > search.) Chiwere should be checked. > > Bob One problem with borrowing a stative root from an Algonqian language into a Siouan one, or vice versa, is that the Algonquian root, unlike the Siouan, can never be an independent word by itself, but must always be attached to something, most frequently to a suffix meaning 'be' plus a bound pronominal subject, though the latter could sometimes be zero in some of the languages. The root tahkw-/cahkw- as quoted would not normally be cited, recognized, or even considered pronounceable by native speakers of these languages. 'be' in Algonquian is fashionably irregular, but not in the Indo-European way, where the suppletive alternants are conditioned by person of subject, tense, and mode. In Algonquian, the suppletive alternants of 'be' are conditioned by gender of subject, and then especially by root, that is, as if by the predicate adjective from the Indo-European point of view. So typically tahkw-/cahkw- will be encountered with a 'be' suffix followed by a third singular suffix; I list below the forms that make a statement (= independent or indicative forms) followed by the forms that modify a noun (= participles or relative forms) after a slash: Mesquakie (animate) cahkwiihiwa / ceehkwiihita M (inanimate) cahkonoohiwi / ceehkonoohiki Kickapoo (an.) cahkwiihia / ceehkwiihita K (in.) cahkwaahenwi / ceehkwaaheki Ojibwe (an.) takkoosi / teekkoosit or kaa takkoosit O (in.) takkwaa / teekkwaak or kaa takkwaak Cree (an.) tahkosiw / kaa tahkosit C (in.) tahkwaaw / kaa tahkwaak The languages disagree among themselves about the irregularities. Nevertheless, without going into further convoluted Algonquian detail on a Siouan list, I think a case could be made for the Cree and Ojibwe inanimate forms being old, and the Kickapoo cahkwaahenwi is just a diminutive of the same thing, based on *cahkwaai or *tahkwaai. If these full words are the source of the Dhegiha ones, they may also explain the a at the end of dappa, jappa, etc. (Anyone who wants the convoluted Algonquian detail can e-mail me for it.) Paul From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Sep 13 15:28:11 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 09:28:11 -0600 Subject: Possible loanwords in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: <01JFWYX3VX4Y9PPF70@BrandonU.CA> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 1999 VOORHIS at BrandonU.CA wrote: Bob Rankin's hesitant suggestion: > > Cf. Dhegiha languages (except Quapaw?) > > > > OP dappa/jappa 'short' ... > > OJ takkw- > > FX cahkw- both 'short' > > One problem with borrowing a stative root from an Algonqian language into a > Siouan one, or vice versa, is that the Algonquian root, unlike the Siouan, can > never be an independent word by itself, but must always be attached to > something, most frequently to a suffix meaning 'be' plus a bound pronominal > subject, though the latter could sometimes be zero in some of the languages. > The root tahkw-/cahkw- as quoted would not normally be cited, recognized, or > even considered pronounceable by native speakers of these languages. ... > So typically tahkw-/cahkw- will be encountered with a 'be' suffix > followed by a third singular suffix; ... ... > Kickapoo (an.) cahkwiihia / ceehkwiihita > K (in.) cahkwaahenwi / ceehkwaaheki ... It's a very interesting question how borrowing of a verb root between an Algonquian and a Siouan language would work. All the borrowings I'm aware of are nouns or at least manifest as nouns in Siouan. I'd expect some invariant simple form, not the extracted root. If so, that would be a problem here. The Dhegiha form suggests underlying PS *taCpa, where C is some stop (t or k in the context) or preaspiration. Typically Dhegiha tense stops (CC or hC) correspond to Dakotan aspirates (Ch), and *hC is reconstructed or to stop-stop clusters C1C2 in Dakotan, with assimilation being to C2, though tk and kt both end up tt ~ ht. Siouan stative stems are typically of the form (C)CV(C), with e ~ a added. The vowel varies with the language, and if there is some form of ablaut in the language, it may alternate withina language. The formant -ka often occurs, too, as with *htaN-ka 'big', and if -ka is added to a C-final form *ka or *h-ka (after -h#) may occur. I have seen *-riN as a formant, too, I guess. From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Mon Sep 13 16:45:29 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:45:29 -0500 Subject: Possible loanwords in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: <01JFWYX3VX4Y9PPF70@BrandonU.CA> Message-ID: > One problem with borrowing a stative root from an Algonqian language > into a Siouan one, or vice versa, is that the Algonquian root, unlike > the Siouan, can never be an independent word by itself,... Paul's obviously right. However, the several Algonquian loans into Siouan that have been spotted so far (mostly by John Koontz), like 'bow', seem to show that Siouan speakers grabbed the first two Algonquian syllables and the rest of the (huge, long) word went out the window. So, in fact, we can all be right. Bob From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Mon Sep 13 17:00:58 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:00:58 -0500 Subject: Possible loanwords in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The Dhegiha form suggests underlying PS *taCpa, where C is some stop > (t or k in the context) or preaspiration. Suggestion: Let's check Chiwere (and poss. Winnebago) for possible related forms. I'm out of circulation with a new right hip and away from many of my sources, so can someone (Jimm?) look up the possible forms of this stem in Good Tracks' dictionary? The forms to check would mean something like 'short' and are: dapa dape tapa tape dakwa dakwe dagwa dagwe takwa, etc. Anything? Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Sep 13 18:04:40 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:04:40 -0600 Subject: Possible loanwords in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Robert L. Rankin wrote: > Paul's obviously right. However, the several Algonquian loans into Siouan > that have been spotted so far (mostly by John Koontz), like 'bow', seem to > show that Siouan speakers grabbed the first two Algonquian syllables and > the rest of the (huge, long) word went out the window. So, in fact, we > can all be right. Grabbing the first two syllables, with some syncope, is a fair assessment, though the words in question weren't enormously long in the fairly secure cases, and only lose about two syllables from syncope and ending loss. In general the words seem to be subjected to some sort of Siouanization in phonology (of course), with some modification based on a pseudo-Siouan analysis of the morphology, e.g., 'cucurbit' loses its initial e (perhaps taken as a demonstrative?). In that particular case I'm not absolutely sure which direction the loan went - i.e., it may have been out of a third language presently unknown. In both 'bow' (cf. Omaha-Ponca maNde and Wi maNaNc^ku) and 'rattlesnake' (cf. Omaha-Ponca s^ekki) the animate -a is deleted, which is odd, as this has a nice structural parallel (if not a semantic one) in Siouan. I'm inclined to wonder if some of the borrowing occurred long enough ago that what are now grammatical morphemes in Algonquian languages (e.g., animate singular -a) might have been more segmentable enclitic articles. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Sep 13 21:25:03 1999 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 16:25:03 -0500 Subject: etymology of Apsa'alooka Message-ID: Maximilian's _Travels_ (1843, p. 174; p. 352 in v. 22 of Thwaites' _Early Western Travels_): "The Crows are called by the Mandans, Hahderuka, by the Manitaries, Haideroka; they..call their own tribe Apsaruka." Charles McKenzie's journal (1805, p. 248 in Wood & Thiessen _Early Fur Trade_): The [Corbeaux] Nation is in two Tribes Kegh-chy-Sa and Hey-re-ro-ka" [and in a variant narrative, "Kegh chy ta and Hen ne no ka"] Bob Rankin's -ro:k-a/e again. Can Randy decipher the rest? Alan From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Tue Sep 14 03:02:13 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 22:02:13 -0500 Subject: Possible loanwords in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Note: Dorsey's Quapaw lexical file did have "tappa" (my orthography) but, oddly, labels it an "Osage loan". It fits Quapaw perfectly -- how could he know? And it turned out I do have Jimm's dictionary here at home. I couldn't find cognates or analogs. Bob From rwd0002 at unt.edu Tue Sep 14 20:12:19 1999 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (Reuse Willem J De) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 15:12:19 -0500 Subject: How widespread is Sound symbolism In-Reply-To: <639a37fd.24845a30@aol.com> Message-ID: Responding to Jess Tauber's message of 9/9/99. When I said that diminutive s/sh symbolism is extremely widespread, I had in mind the Spanish hypocoristics where /ch/ replaces /s/, diminutive palatalizations in Basque, /s/ to /sh/ shift in Lule, an extinct language of northern central Argentina. It might be more common around the Pacific rim, but there are plenty of other places where it can be encountered. Willem de Reuse From Zylogy at aol.com Tue Sep 14 21:41:37 1999 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 17:41:37 EDT Subject: How widespread is Sound symbolism Message-ID: Just a note: it may be possible that there is a developmental implicational hierarchy behind the aug/dim observations. Using Trubetzkoyan/Jakobsonian features as a jumping off point, it seems that "acute" phonemes are far more commonly shifted, crosslinguistically, than the corresponding "graves". Even in the most elaborated system I know of, that of the Chinookan languages, the system isn't completely extended to all the graves. One might even be able to suggest that the presence of shifting in graves implies shifts in acutes. It would be interesting to look at the data from Boas' Dakota again to see whether /s/ and /sh/ were more common than corresponding /x/ in shifted forms statistically. Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Tue Sep 14 21:59:19 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:59:19 -0500 Subject: How widespread is Sound symbolism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > would be interesting to look at the data from Boas' Dakota again to > see whether /s/ and /sh/ were more common than corresponding /x/ in > shifted forms statistically. I think you'll find that if only two of the three places of articulation participate in symbolic sets (NOT aug./dim. symbolism, but the "real" pan-Siouan phenomenon), that it will the the dental and palatal. There may be a few exceptions, but that's how it seems to me. Bob From Zylogy at aol.com Wed Sep 15 00:15:51 1999 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:15:51 EDT Subject: How widespread is Sound symbolism Message-ID: Didn't Boas also mention in passing some examples of an h' or something to that effect? Would this have been the rarest member of the series, and perhaps corresponding to labials(?) in semantics? It's been a long time since I looked at those materials. Perhaps I should start thinking of this form of symbolism as something else than augmentative/diminutive. Can you even really consider it shifting? Given that /x/ seems rarer (and more derivative) than /s/ and /sh/, what about these last? Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Sep 15 04:55:06 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 22:55:06 -0600 Subject: How widespread is Sound symbolism In-Reply-To: <620a0136.25103f37@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Sep 1999 Zylogy at aol.com wrote: > Didn't Boas also mention in passing some examples of an h' or something to > that effect? I'm not familiar with the reference, but if that's a h-overdot, then it's the same as the x - just different orthographies. JEK From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Sep 15 16:28:53 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 09:28:53 -0700 Subject: How widespread is Sound symbolism Message-ID: > > Didn't Boas also mention in passing some examples of an h' or something to that effect? > > I'm not familiar with the reference, but if that's a h-overdot, then it's the same as the x - just different orthographies. All fricatives are elegible to participate. s sh x z zh gh [gamma] s' sh' x' We've just been using the VL set as examples. I don't recall if there are any "fully functional" glottalized sets or not, but they are potentially there. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Sep 15 16:15:02 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:15:02 -0600 Subject: How widespread is Sound symbolism In-Reply-To: <37DFC945.E15CE920@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Robert L. Rankin wrote: > All fricatives are elegible to participate. > > s sh x > z zh gh [gamma] > s' sh' x' > > We've just been using the VL set as examples. I don't recall if there > are any "fully functional" glottalized sets or not, but they are > potentially there. I believe there's a case in Omaha-Ponca with a term meaning 'hollow, depression' that involves the glottalized set. It's interesting because, of course, *x? becomes just ? in Omaha-Ponca. From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Sun Sep 19 08:14:00 1999 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (SHEA KATHLEEN DORETTE) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 03:14:00 -0500 Subject: How widespread is Sound symbolism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Omaha-Ponca has the pair s?adhe 'salty' and x?adhe 'sour,' which I think is an example of sound symbolism involving the non-contiguous sounds s? and x? of the glottalized fricative series. Apparently, the word sh?adhe doesn't exist. (I checked with a couple of speakers.) I haven't been reading the entire discussion about the origin of the names of various tribes, but I did glance at the comments about the name for "Comanche" in O-P, ppada~kka, which I'm told by Ponca speakers means "hooked nose." This could be a folk etymology, however. I wonder if the signs used for tribes' names in Plains sign language would shed some light on their origins or if the signs, too, might be the result of folk etymologies. Kathy Shea On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Koontz John E wrote: > On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Robert L. Rankin wrote: > > All fricatives are elegible to participate. > > > > s sh x > > z zh gh [gamma] > > s' sh' x' > > > > We've just been using the VL set as examples. I don't recall if there > > are any "fully functional" glottalized sets or not, but they are > > potentially there. > > I believe there's a case in Omaha-Ponca with a term meaning 'hollow, > depression' that involves the glottalized set. It's interesting because, > of course, *x? becomes just ? in Omaha-Ponca. > > From ahartley at d.umn.edu Tue Sep 21 01:19:50 1999 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:19:50 -0500 Subject: Siouan personal names Message-ID: For anyone interested, there is a list of 8 Osage and 10 Kansa personal names (in Spanish (?) orthography and with French translations) from a Spanish document of 1795 printed, in English translation, in A. P. Nasatir 1952 _Before Lewis and Clark_ vol. I, p. 327. From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Tue Sep 21 16:16:30 1999 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:16:30 -0700 Subject: Siouan personal names Message-ID: Alan, Thanks for the info. Bob Alan H. Hartley wrote: > > For anyone interested, there is a list of 8 Osage and 10 Kansa personal > names (in Spanish (?) orthography and with French translations) from a > Spanish document of 1795 printed, in English translation, in A. P. > Nasatir 1952 _Before Lewis and Clark_ vol. I, p. 327. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Sep 21 15:17:51 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:17:51 -0600 Subject: Siouan personal names In-Reply-To: <37E7AF5E.4883021F@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Sep 1999, Robert L. Rankin wrote: > Thanks for the info. > > Alan H. Hartley wrote: > > > > For anyone interested, there is a list of 8 Osage and 10 Kansa personal > > names (in Spanish (?) orthography and with French translations) from a > > Spanish document of 1795 printed, in English translation, in A. P. > > Nasatir 1952 _Before Lewis and Clark_ vol. I, p. 327. In Nasatir or Houck (both unfortunately packed away) there is also a reference to the Omaha name Waz^iNga Sabe 'Blackbird' (literally 'black bird', but referring to the raven), spelled Wajinga Saby, at about the same date, in connection with a treaty with the Spanish authorities. I think the gloss is pajaro negro. I hadn't noticed the Osage and Kansa names. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Tue Sep 21 18:55:17 1999 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 13:55:17 -0500 Subject: Siouan personal names Message-ID: If anyone has trouble getting hold of Nasatir, let me know and I'll type out the list of names in e-mail. Alan From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Fri Sep 24 15:32:39 1999 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 10:32:39 -0500 Subject: Fw: post-secondary directory Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Mark Awakuni-Swetland To: Siouan List Date: Friday, September 24, 1999 9:08 AM Subject: post-secondary directory 24 Sept 1999 Hello Folks: At the risk of sounding completely uninformed: Would anyone know if there is a directory or inventory somewhere of post-secondary institutions offering (currently or recent past) Siouan languages? Actually that should more usefully read "... offering any Native language." Or am I faced with soliciting information from each institution starting with the Great Plains region and working my way outward? I am trying to get a handle on what is "out there" as I work on the University of Nebraska's plans to develop an Omaha language series. Thanks! Mark Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Lecturer Department of Anthropology University of Nebraska Bessey Hall 132 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 Office 402-472-3455 Dept. 402-472-2411 FAX 402-472-9642 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Sep 24 21:07:30 1999 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:07:30 -0600 Subject: Fw: post-secondary directory In-Reply-To: <001c01bf06a2$08e42020$79345d81@mark.unl.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Sep 1999, Mark Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > Would anyone know if there is a directory or inventory somewhere of > post-secondary institutions offering (currently or recent past) Siouan > languages? Actually that should more usefully read "... offering any > Native language." Or am I faced with soliciting information from each > institution starting with the Great Plains region and working my way > outward? The Linguistic Society of America publishes a directory of linguistics programs in the US and Canada that includes an index by languages of uncommonly taught languages. Check with the UNL library to see if they have copies of this directory. The LSA site is http://www.lsadc.org, but it didn't seem to include this part of the listing when I checked it quickly. You can also check for references at the SSILA site: http://trc2.ucdavis.edu/ssila/ in http://trc2.ucdavis.edu/ssila/learning.stm. JEK