From klokeid at victoria.tc.ca Tue Feb 1 07:59:34 2000 From: klokeid at victoria.tc.ca (Terry J. Klokeid) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 23:59:34 -0800 Subject: Sunroot use among First Nations Message-ID: Dear colleagues: I have a small seed selling operation and one of the plants I carry is the sunroot, Helianthus tuberosus. I am hoping to obtain more information about the use of this plant by Indians of Canada and the USA, as well as leads on the etymology of the name 'sunroot'. A member of the sunflower family, this plant has a tall stalk, similar to that of the sunflower, Helianthus annuus. Some varieties of sunroot, in a suitable climate, produce small flowers similar to the sunflower, though no viable seeds have ever been documented. Instead, the sunroot propagates through its underground tubers There are many dozens of varieties of the plant, with tubers ranging in size from small carrot to small pumpkin, and colours from bright white to tan to brown to red. Flavours vary just as much (as my seed catalogue demonstrates). You may know the sunroot under another name such as Jerusalem artichoke, or sunchoke, or topinambo(u)r. The sunroot is a native plant of Canada and adjacent parts of the USA. While its homeland is the eastern half of this country and its neighbour to the south, in Algonquian and Iroquoian territory, there is some evidence that sunroots were used by First Nations as far west as the Salish Sea, where I live. If anyone on this list has information about use of sunroots amomg First Nations, I would be most grateful to hear from them. When Samuel de Champlain was discovered on the shores of what are now the Maritime provinces, he was given some tubers to take back to Europe. Somehow the plant got confused with the tropical Calathea aliciae, and hence the French name, 'le topinambour', variously attributed to Arawak or Carib; possibly it is the same in both languages. When sunroot tubers reached London via a Dutch farm at Ter Neusen, Cockney rhyming slang came up with the humorous name 'artichoke of Jerusalem'. (The folk etymology, which derives 'Jerusalem' from Italian 'girasole', overlooks the facts that (1) '*artichoke of girasole' fits no nominal pattern of English while 'artichoke of Ter Neusen' is perfectly ordinary, and (2) - perhaps more subtley for the layman yet obvious to any linguist on this list -- 'girasole' and 'Jerusalem' have quite distinct stress patterns, so the latter could not be a simple assimilation of the former. I also wonder how many Cockney market sellers were familiar enough with both the Italian language and botanical taxonomy, to be able to tranfer 'girasole' from the species Helianthus annuus to the related sp. Helianthus tuberosus, since sunroots flower only rarely in the English climate, and so this would not be an obvious attribute to anyone who grew them there. -- But whatever the correct etymology of J.A. may be, my interest lies not in the Euro-terminology, but in the name 'sunroot' and the provenance of the plant in our own country as well as the USA.) Some people have claimed that the name 'sunroot' is based on the original (presumably Algonquian) name (Or Iroquoian name? Anybody happen to have a copy of Champlain's diaries at hand? I wasn't really paying attention in grade 5 social studies, when we did eastern Canada, and am rather vague about just where Champlain travelled.) Given this possible origin of the name 'sunroot', I am keen to learn what the name for this plant and its tubers might be --in any Algonquian, Iroquoian, or other Indian language. On another aspect -- Some programs, both here in BC and elsewhere, are supplying sunroot tubers for Indian seniors to eat, due to the high incidence of diabetes. The sunroot contains its carbohydratyes in the form of inulin, which can be readily digested by diabetics. I would be happy to share more informatuon about this, and if you know anyone who would like to grow sunroots for such purposes, I'll be happy to send them my catalogue, which describes about 7 of the 20 varieties that I grow. With best wishes, Terry Terry J. Klokeid, Ph.D. Amblewood Organic Farm 126 Amblewood Drive, Fulford Harbour Salt Spring Island BC V8K 1X2 Voice/Fax (250) 653-4099 email amblewood at mail.com "On a trouvé en bonne politique, le secret de faire mourir de faim ceux qui, en cultivant la terre, font vivre les autres." (Voltaire) From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Tue Feb 1 10:15:45 2000 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (SHEA KATHLEEN DORETTE) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 04:15:45 -0600 Subject: Sunroot use among First Nations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Melvin R Gilmore's _Uses of Plants by the Indians of the Missouri River Region_ (University of Nebraska Press, 1991; paperback ISBN 0-8032-7034-8) contains about a paragraph on Helianthus tuberosus (p. 79) and gives the common English, Dakota, Omaha, Winnebago, and Pawnee names. This book, with which you're probably familiar, is a reprint of the 1919 original, the 3rd Annual Report of the BAE. A more recent book, _Edible Wild Plants of the Prairie_ (University Press of Kansas, 1987; paperback ISBN 0-7006-0325-5), written by a local author here in Kansas, Kelly Kindscher, has a four-page write-up for Helianthus tuberosus, with a drawing of it on a fifth page (pp. 129-33). He gives the Cheyenne and Pawnee names for the plant and several common English names in addition to the Latin scientific name. (You might also be interested in Kelly Kindscher's _Medicinal Wild Plants of the Prairie_, although it doesn't mention Helianthus tuberosus.) I hope this information helps. Kathy Shea From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Feb 1 23:17:18 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:17:18 -0700 Subject: Sunroot use among First Nations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Terry J. Klokeid wrote: > I have a small seed selling operation and one of the plants I carry is the > sunroot, Helianthus tuberosus. > > I am hoping to obtain more information about the use of this plant by > Indians of Canada and the USA, as well as leads on the etymology of the > name 'sunroot'. I suppose sunroot is a calque of Heli(anthus) tuberosus. Sunchoke is the form I've run into in commercial contexts. I'd assumed this was a portmanteau of sunflower and artichoke, but maybe the two components are sunroot and artichoke. I've run into "sunchokes" in supermarkets in Colorado, and the usual distributors seem to be in California. > If anyone on this list has information about use of sunroots amomg First > Nations, I would be most grateful to hear from them. The Proto(Mississippi Valley) Siouan form was something like *hpaN'xi. The Omahas I asked about it used the word for 'radish'. The modern form is ppaN'ghe in Omaha in my limited experience, though I've seen ppaN'ghi in sources, I think. Dakotan has phaNghi'. I don't think the stem is attested outside Missippi Valley, though this is probably at least partly due to coincidences of distribution. I suppose there must be forms in Crow-Hidatsa and in Mandan. From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 2 00:06:03 2000 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 18:06:03 -0600 Subject: Sunroot use among First Nations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The Proto(Mississippi Valley) Siouan form was something like *hpaN'xi. > The Omahas I asked about it used the word for 'radish'. The modern > form is ppaN'ghe in Omaha in my limited experience, though I've seen > ppaN'ghi in sources, I think. Dakotan has phaNghi'. I don't think > the stem is attested outside Missippi Valley, though this is probably > at least partly due to coincidences of distribution. I suppose there > must be forms in Crow-Hidatsa and in Mandan. I guess I'm behind the curve on this one. I thought Terry was referring to the term that crops up (pun intended) in Dakotan as mdo/blo <*wVRo. In any event, it might be worthwhile calling his attention to those ethnobotanies by Huron Smith. I don't currently have the biblio nearby, but John would. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 2 05:45:56 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 22:45:56 -0700 Subject: Sunroot use among First Nations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Feb 2000, Robert L. Rankin wrote: > I guess I'm behind the curve on this one. I thought Terry was referring > to the term that crops up (pun intended) in Dakotan as mdo/blo <*wVRo. I think I have the terms sorted properly. That's the *pro < **wVro '(wild) potato' stem. The vegetable that gave Trickster gas ... At least as Gilmore and Dorsey have them sorted out. > In any event, it might be worthwhile calling his attention to those > ethnobotanies by Huron Smith. I don't currently have the biblio nearby, > but John would. Ah, now you've put me on the spot. There's a series of these, published by the Milwaukee Museum of Natural History. H.K. Smith visited most (all?) of the tribes resident in Wisconsin and published lists of terms with some comentary in the Museum's proceedings. As he was in the process of editing the Oneida and Winnebago ones, if I recall properly, he took the family out for a drive one Sunday in the 1920's and they were all killed in a collision at a train crossing - a sad event recalling the later fate of the Chapmans. The uncompleted manuscripts for these are in the ms. holdings of the Museum and somewhere I have xeroxes of these obtained through the good offices of Nancy Lurie. Bob, wasn't somebody editing the Winnebago ms. for publication? (Return service barely clears the net.) Unfortunately, this portion of my office is still not unpacked from my move. If Terry or anyone else is interested, I will do the necessary excavation. By the way, if you need a new snail mail address - let me know! JEK From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 2 14:55:02 2000 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:55:02 -0600 Subject: Sunroot use among First Nations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I think I have the terms sorted properly. That's the *pro < **wVro > '(wild) potato' stem. The vegetable that gave Trickster gas ... At > least as Gilmore and Dorsey have them sorted out. OK. The *hpaNxi term is, as I recall, only found in the Mississippi Valley Siouan subgroup. The *wVro term is pan-Siouan and there is an potential reflex in Catawba also. > Ah, now you've put me on the spot. There's a series of these, > published by the Milwaukee Museum of Natural History. H.K. Smith > visited most (all?) of the tribes resident in Wisconsin and published > lists of terms with some comentary in the Museum's proceedings. As he > was in the process of editing the Oneida and Winnebago ones, if I > recall properly, he took the family out for a drive one Sunday in the > 1920's and they were all killed in a collision at a train crossing - a > sad event recalling the later fate of the Chapmans. The uncompleted > manuscripts for these are in the ms. holdings of the Museum and > somewhere I have xeroxes of these obtained through the good offices of > Nancy Lurie. Right. I know they exist for Menomini and Oneida and I think Fox at least. Sorry, I forgot about your recent move. Your office probably looks like mine. > Bob, wasn't somebody editing the Winnebago ms. for publication? Yes, Kelly Kindscher and someone else I believe published it but didn't get the vowel length in every instance. One could try just doing a name search on K.K. using Netscape and see if it emerges. Bob From BGalloway at sifc.edu Tue Feb 8 23:17:12 2000 From: BGalloway at sifc.edu (Galloway, Brent) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:17:12 -0600 Subject: Sunroot use among First Nations Message-ID: Terry, Interesting e-mail about the sunchoke and your research and development on it. I can't contribute much, but I did find the plant and its name in Upriver Halkomelem. The elders called it 'wild artichoke' and showed me samples from Sardis and Seabird Island, which I dried in a plant press and took to Nancy Turner to help me identify. As I suspected from the botany books, it was Jerusalem artichoke (Helianthus tuberosus). The Upriver Halkomelem word for it is xa'xakw' (where both x's should be underlined in the Sto':lo writing system used in the Fraser Valley, showing that they are uvular, the first a should have an acute accent showing it has high tone and is equivalent to digraph/ash, and the last kw' is for a glottalized labialized velar stop. The literal meaning is probably 'wedged in'. It is one of several kinds of "Indian potato" according to the elders. It has an edible root or bulb. Could be eaten raw, cooked or dried. Grew on Seabird Island and by Chehalis, within their (Sto':lo) territory. (Sto':lo in the orthography has an o [phonemically and phonetically [a], with an acute accent over it (high phonemic tone), followed by : for phonemic length, and the final o should have a macron over it [o]. This is written up in my Upper Sto':lo Ethnobotany, published by Coqualeetza Education Training Centre in 1982 and used as a teacher's guide in the Sto':lo Si'tel Indian studies curriculum used in the Fraser Valley school system for a number of years (maybe even still used there). I'm doing some work in field methods course this semester with Leona Kroeskamp on Assiniboine and I will ask her if she knows the plant and knows a term for it in Assiniboine. Hope this helps. Brent Galloway -----Original Message----- From: Terry J. Klokeid [SMTP:klokeid at victoria.tc.ca] Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 2:00 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Sunroot use among First Nations Dear colleagues: I have a small seed selling operation and one of the plants I carry is the sunroot, Helianthus tuberosus. I am hoping to obtain more information about the use of this plant by Indians of Canada and the USA, as well as leads on the etymology of the name 'sunroot'. A member of the sunflower family, this plant has a tall stalk, similar to that of the sunflower, Helianthus annuus. Some varieties of sunroot, in a suitable climate, produce small flowers similar to the sunflower, though no viable seeds have ever been documented. Instead, the sunroot propagates through its underground tubers There are many dozens of varieties of the plant, with tubers ranging in size from small carrot to small pumpkin, and colours from bright white to tan to brown to red. Flavours vary just as much (as my seed catalogue demonstrates). You may know the sunroot under another name such as Jerusalem artichoke, or sunchoke, or topinambo(u)r. The sunroot is a native plant of Canada and adjacent parts of the USA. While its homeland is the eastern half of this country and its neighbour to the south, in Algonquian and Iroquoian territory, there is some evidence that sunroots were used by First Nations as far west as the Salish Sea, where I live. If anyone on this list has information about use of sunroots amomg First Nations, I would be most grateful to hear from them. When Samuel de Champlain was discovered on the shores of what are now the Maritime provinces, he was given some tubers to take back to Europe. Somehow the plant got confused with the tropical Calathea aliciae, and hence the French name, 'le topinambour', variously attributed to Arawak or Carib; possibly it is the same in both languages. When sunroot tubers reached London via a Dutch farm at Ter Neusen, Cockney rhyming slang came up with the humorous name 'artichoke of Jerusalem'. (The folk etymology, which derives 'Jerusalem' from Italian 'girasole', overlooks the facts that (1) '*artichoke of girasole' fits no nominal pattern of English while 'artichoke of Ter Neusen' is perfectly ordinary, and (2) - perhaps more subtley for the layman yet obvious to any linguist on this list -- 'girasole' and 'Jerusalem' have quite distinct stress patterns, so the latter could not be a simple assimilation of the former. I also wonder how many Cockney market sellers were familiar enough with both the Italian language and botanical taxonomy, to be able to tranfer 'girasole' from the species Helianthus annuus to the related sp. Helianthus tuberosus, since sunroots flower only rarely in the English climate, and so this would not be an obvious attribute to anyone who grew them there. -- But whatever the correct etymology of J.A. may be, my interest lies not in the Euro-terminology, but in the name 'sunroot' and the provenance of the plant in our own country as well as the USA.) Some people have claimed that the name 'sunroot' is based on the original (presumably Algonquian) name (Or Iroquoian name? Anybody happen to have a copy of Champlain's diaries at hand? I wasn't really paying attention in grade 5 social studies, when we did eastern Canada, and am rather vague about just where Champlain travelled.) Given this possible origin of the name 'sunroot', I am keen to learn what the name for this plant and its tubers might be --in any Algonquian, Iroquoian, or other Indian language. On another aspect -- Some programs, both here in BC and elsewhere, are supplying sunroot tubers for Indian seniors to eat, due to the high incidence of diabetes. The sunroot contains its carbohydratyes in the form of inulin, which can be readily digested by diabetics. I would be happy to share more informatuon about this, and if you know anyone who would like to grow sunroots for such purposes, I'll be happy to send them my catalogue, which describes about 7 of the 20 varieties that I grow. With best wishes, Terry Terry J. Klokeid, Ph.D. Amblewood Organic Farm 126 Amblewood Drive, Fulford Harbour Salt Spring Island BC V8K 1X2 Voice/Fax (250) 653-4099 email amblewood at mail.com "On a trouvé en bonne politique, le secret de faire mourir de faim ceux qui, en cultivant la terre, font vivre les autres." (Voltaire) From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Feb 21 18:05:22 2000 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:05:22 -0600 Subject: CHIWERE etymology Message-ID: The Hdbk. Amer. Indians (1907, I. 287) gives the meaning of CHIWERE as 'belonging to this place; the home people', presumably following Dorsey. Can anyone confirm that and/or amplify on it? And provide the earliest occurrence (? Dorsey c. 1880). Thanks, Alan From mosind at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 01:07:24 2000 From: mosind at yahoo.com (Constantine Xmelnitski) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:07:24 -0800 Subject: D.Rood & A.Taylor's "Sketch of Lakhota" online! Message-ID: Dear Siouanists: With a permission of David and Smithsonian Inst. I published the "Sketch of Lakhota, a Siouan Language", (H.N.A.I. Vol.17, pp.440-82). http://www.wablenica.newmail.ru/lakhota.htm The Lakhota spellings are NetSiouan and Colorado (in Unicode). I would be very glad for the feedback (re misprints etc.) either thru the List or thru my email: wablenica at mail.ru Presently I'm preparing the online version of "Dakota Grammar" of Boas & Deloria! Toks^a, c^hiyepi! Connie. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Feb 22 01:11:58 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 18:11:58 -0700 Subject: CHIWERE etymology In-Reply-To: <38B17E62.5869C3EE@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > The Hdbk. Amer. Indians (1907, I. 287) gives the meaning of CHIWERE as > 'belonging to this place; the home people', presumably following Dorsey. > Can anyone confirm that and/or amplify on it? And provide the earliest > occurrence (? Dorsey c. 1880). I can't access the file at the moment, but doesn't Dorsey discuss the Dhegiha term in the Phonology of 5? (4?) Siouan languages paper, too? I think that's c. 1895. That might be the place to look, by analogy. Chiwere is from Jiwere (or jiwele, c^iwere, c^iwele, depending on how the liquid and the unaspirated c^ are written). Rankin generally recommends using j^ for c^ (vs. c^h, I think, for c^h), in order to maximize the attention drawn to the aspiration distinction, which is regularly and thoroughly (though not universally) overlooked in Ioway-Otoe-Missouria work. The j^i stem should be *t-hi 'to arrive here' (<**re-hi), as PS (post)aspirates end up as voiced in Ioway-Otoe and Winnebago. If it were c^h it would be from *hti (the PREaspirate), which would be 'to dwell'. The latter is not the root that occurs here. The -were part could, I suppose, involve the we 'horizontal positional' stem. That is, this could be based on one of the 'suddenly' verbs, analogous to Dhegiha (cf. OP) thihe. Cf. Good Tracks's dictionary j^iwe 'to fall, come down lying'. (Here and below I convert his j to j^.) But the final -re is a problem, I think, as this slot should have the causative, if anything, which would be -hi. That would produce *j^iwehi (not attested, but probably valid, though not as the name in question!). Good Tracks does list j^irehi 'to remove, subtravct, take away', which is the causative of j^ire, another 'suddenly' stem, which is glossed 'to get up, rise up, begin, commence'. Good Tracks cites the ablauted form j^ira. This is analogous to OP thidhe, or Dakota hiya. These forms reduplicate as j^irara, thidhadha, and hiyaya. If the stem in j^iwere is j^ire, then we is some sort of inflectional or derivational inclusion, apparently -wa-(something?)i-. I'm not sure what at the moment. All things considered, probably the simplest thing is to mark the form 'name in Ioway-Otoe-Missouria of the Otoe (not certainly analyzable)'. From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Tue Feb 22 17:41:20 2000 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (SHEA KATHLEEN DORETTE) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 11:41:20 -0600 Subject: heyoka mistranslation In-Reply-To: <8525688D.005CAE0E.00@harcourtbrace.com> Message-ID: Mr. Masthay, I'm going to forward your question to the Siouan list so that someone who reads it may answer it. Even though I said that I am a Siouanist, I study Ponca, in the Dhegiha branch of the Siouan language family. I'm in Oklahoma right now and don't have my Dakota mateials with me, and, anyway, someone who studies one of the Dakota dialects could probably give you a better translation of the material you quote. Kathy Shea On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 carl.masthay at harcourt.com wrote: > > > Hi, Kathleen, by golly, I do have a Siouan question for you on my mistranslation > from > message #577 on the site Village of First Nations > ("http://www.firstnations.com/cgi-bin/postit?login=fnai&topic=forum/culture/culture&order=date&article=577"): > > OK, so I don't know Lakota, and I should have translated the long sentence in > #576, but here > are the words I dragged out of the dictionary as well as I could: 'Winter, and > within-red... not > (emphatic) warm, and red... not then with[fire?] this un(?)-clown/trickster > (men's emphatic final > particle)'. So maybe that is: 'Winter may look red but it is not really warm, > and so what looks red > may not be a fire(?) with this trickster.' Help me, someone! I'm sure that I > botched it up! Carl > [Kathleen, can you provide a better translation? Pilamaya, Carl] > > "Osni, yunkan tiyoceyati s'ni nak.e' mas'te, yunkan ceyati s'ni ehan on le > heyonika yelo," as is > said to one when he once had a fire while they called it warm weather. > > > (Message #576:) Following up on Gary Senkowski's corrected spelling, I found > this in my > Lakota-English Dictionary by Buechel (1970): > heyo'ka, a clown. According to Riggs this is the name of a Dakota god called by > some the > anti-natural god. He is represented as a little old man with a cocked hat on his > head, a bow > and arrows in his hands and a quiver on his back. In winter he goes naked, and > in the summer > he wraps his buffalo robe around himself. "Osni, yunkan tiyoceyati s'ni nak.e' > mas'te, yunkan > ceyati s'ni ehan on le heyonika yelo," as is said to one when he once had a fire > while they > called it warm weather. > heyo'ka oti', the house or place where a heyoka does his wakan work. > In addition, there is this curious name of a plant: > heyo'ka tapeju'ta, red false mallow, prairie mallow, Malvastrum coccineum. A > gray moss root. > Magicians chewed their roots and rubbed their hands with it and so could dip > them into the > hottest water without being scalded. (But Sam Terry denied those qualities.) The > roots > chewed and laid on sores have a healing effect. > ------------------------------------------------ Gary had earlier e-mailed me > the following: > I found that there is a heyoka wheel. It represents all that is not what seems. > For example, > when in the southern hemisphere it would appear that the sun rises in the west > and sets in the > east. Heyoka means trickster, or jester. The medicine of not what it seems, > turning things > upside down. > > > From ahartley at d.umn.edu Tue Feb 22 19:48:40 2000 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:48:40 -0600 Subject: CHIWERE etymology Message-ID: Thanks, John. Hodge's Hdbk I.287 s.v. Chiwere has the following Dorsey forms: Ti-re'-wi (1879) 'Ce'kiwere (1880) 'Ciwere (1880) Tcekiwere (1882) Tciwere (1882; Dorsey?) Tcekiwere (1884; T, c and k inverted) Can the Dorseyists among you explain these? From egooding at iupui.edu Tue Feb 22 19:48:33 2000 From: egooding at iupui.edu (Erik D Gooding) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:48:33 -0500 Subject: heyoka mistranslation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As I've already email Mr. Mashtay, I believe that this sentence, taken from Father B's definition of aheyoka, contains a typo, that second s'ni should be the conintuative s'na, 'he's always having a fire'. that expresses the contrary nature of the heyoka. Perhaps Ray DeMallie can run into the other room there at AISRI and check to see which way Father B wrote it on his slips. But my gut says its either an expression of the period and/or a typo. Erik P.S. JEK, I'll get to our conversation about stress/pitch/accent here shortly, if I ever get my dissertation done, I can think of other things! On Tue, 22 Feb 2000, SHEA KATHLEEN DORETTE wrote: > Mr. Masthay, > > I'm going to forward your question to the Siouan list so that someone who > reads it may answer it. Even though I said that I am a Siouanist, I study > Ponca, in the Dhegiha branch of the Siouan language family. I'm in > Oklahoma right now and don't have my Dakota mateials with me, and, anyway, > someone who studies one of the Dakota dialects could probably give you a > better translation of the material you quote. > > Kathy Shea > > On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 carl.masthay at harcourt.com wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, Kathleen, by golly, I do have a Siouan question for you on my mistranslation > > from > > message #577 on the site Village of First Nations > > ("http://www.firstnations.com/cgi-bin/postit?login=fnai&topic=forum/culture/culture&order=date&article=577"): > > > > OK, so I don't know Lakota, and I should have translated the long sentence in > > #576, but here > > are the words I dragged out of the dictionary as well as I could: 'Winter, and > > within-red... not > > (emphatic) warm, and red... not then with[fire?] this un(?)-clown/trickster > > (men's emphatic final > > particle)'. So maybe that is: 'Winter may look red but it is not really warm, > > and so what looks red > > may not be a fire(?) with this trickster.' Help me, someone! I'm sure that I > > botched it up! Carl > > [Kathleen, can you provide a better translation? Pilamaya, Carl] > > > > "Osni, yunkan tiyoceyati s'ni nak.e' mas'te, yunkan ceyati s'ni ehan on le > > heyonika yelo," as is > > said to one when he once had a fire while they called it warm weather. > > > > > > (Message #576:) Following up on Gary Senkowski's corrected spelling, I found > > this in my > > Lakota-English Dictionary by Buechel (1970): > > heyo'ka, a clown. According to Riggs this is the name of a Dakota god called by > > some the > > anti-natural god. He is represented as a little old man with a cocked hat on his > > head, a bow > > and arrows in his hands and a quiver on his back. In winter he goes naked, and > > in the summer > > he wraps his buffalo robe around himself. "Osni, yunkan tiyoceyati s'ni nak.e' > > mas'te, yunkan > > ceyati s'ni ehan on le heyonika yelo," as is said to one when he once had a fire > > while they > > called it warm weather. > > heyo'ka oti', the house or place where a heyoka does his wakan work. > > In addition, there is this curious name of a plant: > > heyo'ka tapeju'ta, red false mallow, prairie mallow, Malvastrum coccineum. A > > gray moss root. > > Magicians chewed their roots and rubbed their hands with it and so could dip > > them into the > > hottest water without being scalded. (But Sam Terry denied those qualities.) The > > roots > > chewed and laid on sores have a healing effect. > > ------------------------------------------------ Gary had earlier e-mailed me > > the following: > > I found that there is a heyoka wheel. It represents all that is not what seems. > > For example, > > when in the southern hemisphere it would appear that the sun rises in the west > > and sets in the > > east. Heyoka means trickster, or jester. The medicine of not what it seems, > > turning things > > upside down. > > > > > > > From jggoodtracks at juno.com Wed Feb 23 05:11:38 2000 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:11:38 -0600 Subject: CHIWERE etymology Message-ID: Alan Hartley: As John says, Dorsey discussed "Ji'were" for the similar term in OP, and mentioned of it for IOM. Like John, I have Dorsey's notation somewhere, but haven't a clue as to where I can find it for an exact quote or reference here. And as he explained it's glossed meaning referrs to "People of this place" or as I recall, somewhere given as "People from here", which begins to approach something of a literal meaning. A more exact rendition is "(we/I) go from here": The term for "here" is usually "igi/ jegi" or some derivation [See p.161, IOMDict]. "je/ jegi" signifies "here/ right here/ at" thus suggesting this place right here. Also, there is "jira'ra= here & there", however, it appears the first that "ji-" is contracted from "j(eg)i". John suggested another possibility, indeed, that "ji" is the verb "to arrive here". And while IOM, as do other Siouian languages, use several motion verbs together, this does not seem to be the case here. "wa-" is a directional prefix indicating the action moves away from/ to a third point. There is another prefix "wa-", which is rendered as "something" and may convert verbs to noun. Each of these prefixes have different positions in the verb complex. "re" = "to go"; "ire'" = "to go across"; "hire'" = "go away/ depart/ leave/ arrive going"; "ware'" = "go from/ go towards"; "gawa're" = "go to there"; "iwa're" = "go from here/ go to specified place". Thus, "Je (here)" + "wa (from)" + "hire (arrive going)". Note: "wa> we" before "(h)i". Contractions occur frequently in IOM. This discussion confirms the my commitment to expand the First Edition IOM Dictionary into the unabridged version that would address these kinds of questions, with supporting examples and opportunity for comparitive analysis. As far as Dorsey's variations of the term, can wait on another dialog at another time, perhaps when his Dhegiha reference is located. Furthermore, I have no idea when the term began to be used by the OM People. Perhaps, John can give some idea as to when it became used by linguists. I imagine the People adopted it when the Missionaries discouraged the use of their previous traditional designation. Jimm GoodTracks On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:05:22 -0600 "Alan H. Hartley" writes: >The Hdbk. Amer. Indians (1907, I. 287) gives the meaning of CHIWERE >as >'belonging to this place; the home people', presumably following >Dorsey. >Can anyone confirm that and/or amplify on it? And provide the >earliest >occurrence (? Dorsey c. 1880). > >Thanks, > >Alan > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 23 06:35:29 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:35:29 -0700 Subject: CHIWERE etymology In-Reply-To: <38B2E818.5B5CC05@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Feb 2000, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > Hodge's Hdbk I.287 s.v. Chiwere has the following Dorsey forms: > > Ti-re'-wi (1879) Not in IO form. Not clear what it is. > 'Ce'kiwere (1880) > 'Ciwere (1880) > Tcekiwere (1882) > Tciwere (1882; Dorsey?) Successive pairs of orthographic variants for J^egiwere, J^iwere. > Tcekiwere (1884; T, c and k inverted) Additional orthographic variant of first form in pair only, confirming lack of aspiration in tc (i.e., t + s^, representing c^) and k, or, actually, since unaspirated, j^ and g. The variants J^egiwere ~ J^iwere shed additional light on the form. It appears that the first element is probably j^e 'this', and that it becomes j^i only by contraction with a following i, i.e., probably the underlying forms are j^e'=giwere and j^(e)'=iwere. Again, I don't thing I'm completely sure of the inflectional/derivational forms involved in the gi- and i-, but now we have something more or less parallel with OP dhe'=giha. j^e gi we re dhe gi ha 0 this VERTITIVE? HORIZONTAL-POSITIONAL ??? The final -re is still a bit of a mystery, but checking the Dorsey OP texts for -gih- turns up only a series of examples of e'=gihE glossed '(headlong|right) (0|into|through|beneath)'. Here the first element is e 'the aforesaid, it', and the second element is a stem somewhere along the path between verb and postposition. This stem occurs as gihe mostly, but as giha sometimes, when followed by =xti, and, interestingly, when followed by a verb of motion (beginning in its own separate a) or a 'suddenly' auxiliary. A typical 'suddenly' auxiliary is idhe, which may explain the -re of the Chiwere form. Somebody recently (last SIuan COnference?) suggested a term (in actual use in other language families) for 'suddenly' auxiliaries. Anyone know or remember it? Note that 0 (nothing) or 'into' are typical in the glosses, e.g., with such things as a thicket, while 'through' occurs with lodge smoke holes, and 'beneath (the surface of)' with water. I'm going to guess that dhe'=giha and e'=gihE involve the same stem gihe, posibly made up of the elements VERTITIVE + HORIZONTAL, and that it covers the sense 'pertain/belong to, be(come) an element of, enter (completely) into'. The available derivatives seem rather lexicalized. Ioway-Otoe seems to have the a parallel construction j^e'=(g)iwe=re, which requires the addition of a 'suddenly' auxiliary =re. Note that Bob Rankin is always on the lookout for cases of causative =re in Chiwere, and this is one that I'd have a hard time fighting off, without a lot of supporting paradigmatic information that's probably not available, in spite of my instincts. I don't understand why sometimes gi and sometimes i, though i- is an initial component of positional verbs, and in OP forms like ihe=...dhe (dhe is the causative here) mean 'to lay (horizontally)', and in these ihe is i=he 'motion hither' + 'horizonal', which can occur independently, e.g., as a 'suddenly' auxiliary. Note that LaFlesche maintains that Dhegiha is in no sense an ethnonym and essentially means something like 'a member of the same team for a game'. This is not too different from what Dorsey claimed, i.e., 'a local, a member of the group', though he may also have considered the term suitable as a self-designation for Omahas, etc. By analogy it would appear that Chiwere was posssibly once only a possible internal designation for the Otoe, and not (originally) a name in the proper sense, especially not one that others might apply to them. As such, speculatively, it might even have been something an Ioway might have said of him or herself at some point in the (forgotten) past, before it came to imply 'Otoe' in a specific way. It's interesting that Ioway has that /we/ form for the horizonal positional. It's /he/ in Dhegiha, and the correspondence w:h isn't regular, except ... OP has uhe 'to follow' (< *ophe) and IO has uwe'. Unfortunately, the rest of Dhegiha has, as far as I know, reflexes of h in the positional and reflexes of ph (with the p intact) in the verb, cf. Osage ops^e. If there's anything in this, either gihe:giwe(re) don't involve the positional, or perhaps we're seeing the origin of the positional? > Can the Dorseyists among you explain these? Well, I've tried! The simple answer is now something along these lines: J^(e)(g)iwere may be something like 'belonging here; located here; one of these', from j^e 'this' and (g)iwere, a (set of related) lexicalized form(s) meaning something like 'belong to, be located at, be one of', cf. Dhegiha, an Omaha-Ponca term with a parallel analysis. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 23 06:52:15 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:52:15 -0700 Subject: CHIWERE etymology In-Reply-To: <38B2E818.5B5CC05@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Feb 2000, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > Hodge's Hdbk I.287 s.v. Chiwere has the following Dorsey forms: > > Ti-re'-wi (1879) A thought. This may be a variant of the Irish version, Tiperewi, cf. "Tipperary." This is much mangled from the original J^egiwere, but, then, they were a long way from the Ti(pe)rewi. Consider this my contribution to the April postings. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Feb 23 15:08:20 2000 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:08:20 -0600 Subject: CHIWERE etymology Message-ID: > A thought. This may be a variant of the Irish version, Tiperewi I always knew Koontz was a good Irish name! From FurbeeL at missouri.edu Wed Feb 23 16:49:52 2000 From: FurbeeL at missouri.edu (Louanna Furbee) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:49:52 -0600 Subject: CHIWERE etymology In-Reply-To: <38B17E62.5869C3EE@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Alan, This is news to me. As far as I know there is no satisfactory gloss for Chiwere, although some of the historical types might dig out an etymology for it. I had no idea Dorsey had an analysis or gloss. None of my informants were very helpful, but that may be because there is a story about taboo behavior engaged in by Otoes when they were first affiliated with the Missourias, and one of the names for Otoes makes reference to it. I'll have to look some of that stuff up. Just got back from AAAS meeting in DC. Sorry to be late in replying. I'm copying in Jill Davidson and Lori Stanley to see if they have any help to offer. Best, Louanna >The Hdbk. Amer. Indians (1907, I. 287) gives the meaning of CHIWERE as >'belonging to this place; the home people', presumably following Dorsey. >Can anyone confirm that and/or amplify on it? And provide the earliest >occurrence (? Dorsey c. 1880). > >Thanks, > >Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Feb 24 21:22:44 2000 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:22:44 -0600 Subject: CHIWERE etymology Message-ID: Thanks to Jimm, John and Louanna: Jimm and John, do you think it might be possible to reach a fairly high-confidence consensus between your etymological suggestions? And John, I was interested in the Dhegiha/Chiwere parallels. Louanna: > taboo behavior engaged in by Otoes when they were first affiliated > with the Missourias, and one of the names for Otoes makes reference to it. > Jimm and Bob Rankin have posted messages touching on this subject. Thanks very much for inquiring of your informants and for looking things up. I don't want to send anyone on a wild goose-chase, but I do want OED ethnonym etymologies to take account of everything we know. Best regards, Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Feb 28 07:45:06 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 00:45:06 -0700 Subject: D.Rood & A.Taylor's "Sketch of Lakhota" online! In-Reply-To: <20000222010724.11142.qmail@web119.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: > With a permission of David and Smithsonian Inst. I > published the "Sketch of Lakhota, a Siouan Language", > (H.N.A.I. Vol.17, pp.440-82). > http://www.wablenica.newmail.ru/lakhota.htm Sure enough! I checked it out quickly. It's nice to have this reference accessible via the Net. Note that you can search the text using your browser's search mechanisms. > The Lakhota spellings are NetSiouan and Colorado (in > Unicode). It could be something about my setup, but in the NetSiouan version glottal stop appears as ~~~ on my system. I also happened to notice a small typo (without really checking for such things or noticing any others): 1.4.1. /w y h/ at the Beginning of a Words (Spurious plural) > Presently I'm preparing the online version of "Dakota > Grammar" of Boas & Deloria! That will be another coup! WibadhahaN! From mosind at yahoo.com Tue Feb 29 03:32:33 2000 From: mosind at yahoo.com (Constantine Xmelnitski) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 19:32:33 -0800 Subject: D.Rood & A.Taylor's "Sketch of Lakhota" online! Message-ID: --- Koontz John E wrote: > It could be something about my setup, but in the > NetSiouan version glottal > stop appears as ~~~ on my system. My fault - fixed. > > I also happened to notice a small typo (without > really checking for such > things or noticing any others): > > 1.4.1. /w y h/ at the Beginning of a Words > > (Spurious plural) Fixed. Thank you, John! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From soup at vm.inext.cz Tue Feb 29 06:45:27 2000 From: soup at vm.inext.cz (SOUP) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 07:45:27 +0100 Subject: Two object pronouns in a transitive verb Message-ID: I have been transcribing Buechel's Lakhota version of Bible, phonemizing it and supplying it with literal and free translation. During the work I came upon a transitive verb with two object pronouns in it: nima'kahipi ( Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Feb 2000, SOUP wrote: > I have been transcribing Buechel's Lakhota version of Bible, phonemizing it > and supplying it with literal and free translation. During the work I came > upon a transitive verb with two object pronouns in it: > > nima'kahipi ( (Pilate talking to Jesus, pp. 282; 1924) > > I only know the use of two object pronouns in few stative verbs, but I have > never encountered this kind of construction in a transitive verb (and I > don't recall it being described in any of the works on Lakhota known to me). I'd tend to suspect that this form popped into existence to accomodate the context, but cannot affirm this. > 6) If it is not regular to use two object pronouns in a transitive verb, how > would Lakhotas express sentences of the type: "They brought you to me"? In Omaha I'd expect something like '(they) having me, they came to you', or something on the order of aN'dhiN s^=athi'=i (or aN'dhiN s^=ahi'=i, or aN'dhiN s^=agdhi'=i, or aN'dhiN s^=akhi'=i, depending on where there was). The closest analog I've noticed is aN'dhiN akhi=i 'having me, they went back'. The 'to you' sense is regularly expressed, however, by the proclitic s^u 'thither (near you)', which regularly contracts to s^ before the a-prefix common in third person plurals (and singulars in OP) of motion verbs. Note that the verb 'to have' is a...dhiN, but the a-prefix regularly contracts with first person aN as aN'-, hence aN'dhiN, not *aaN'dhiN. One might wonder if the a was simply not being heard, but I think not, because 'have for me' is iN'dhiN, not *aiN'dhiN or *e'iNdhiN or *e'aNdhiN. The rule for forming datives with or without various locative sequences is to insert gi or change a vowel (e.g., form aN to aiN or a to e) or vowels. I won't go into the details, which are convoluted and depend on the locative present (or the absence of the locative). In this case the change shows that there is no a present, however. Note that the vowel that changes is not always the vowel next to the putative slot for any underlying gi, hence my reluctance to define tha change int erms of contraction with gi, though this is likely to be the historical origin of the change. For example, aNg + a + (putative gi) + stem produces iNg-a-stem. (This is by memory, but I htink it's right.) Anyway, this 'having + Verb of motion' construct is the most common way of saying 'bring' or 'take' in OP. The usual equivalent of 'send' is 'cause + Verb of motion'. Note: iN'dhiN gi=ga! 'having (it) for me come back (male imp)', i.e., 'bring it for me!'. This can also be 'bring it (or him) to me'. Another verb used with verbs of motion is dhighe 'to pursue': dhighe athi'=i 'pursuing him they came', etc. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Feb 29 15:50:20 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:50:20 -0700 Subject: Two object pronouns in a transitive verb In-Reply-To: <001a01bf8280$ae93a680$c9006fd4@default> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Feb 2000, SOUP wrote: > Considering that kahi' is a verb requiring three participants this use of > pronouns seems quite logical. Thinking further, I seem to recall that kahi is an example of a comitative structure used in Dakotan, involving prefixing k- to a verb of motion, like ahi. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Feb 29 19:35:01 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:35:01 -0700 Subject: CHIWERE etymology In-Reply-To: <38B5A124.AABC7143@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Feb 2000, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > Jimm and John, do you think it might be possible to reach a fairly > high-confidence consensus between your etymological suggestions? And > John, I was interested in the Dhegiha/Chiwere parallels. I'll see what I can cook up. I haven't heard from Jim. I thought I was pretty well on track with take 2. Jimm added: A more exact rendition is "(we/I) go from here": The term for "here" is usually "igi/ jegi" or some derivation [See p.161, IOMDict]. "je/ jegi" signifies "here/ right here/ at" thus suggesting this place right here. John: =gi (the = just marking an enclitic boundary) is 'at' (the locative postposition), which is =gi in Chiwere and Winnebago, vs. =di in OP and =l ~ =tu in Dakotan. The Chiwere and Winnebago forms are cognate with each other, as are the Dhegiha and Dakotan ones, but the two sets (*ki and *tu) are not cognate with each other. i- is either a raised version of e= or just i 'it', which tends to replace e= in Chiwere and Winnebago. I've never felt that I knew which was happening or in which degree both were happening. So igi and j^egi are analogs of OP edi, dhedi and Teton el, lel. All these forms are the generic demonstrative (it, that aforementioned) and the proximal demonstrative (this) combined with a locative postposition. This said, I think that the gi in j^egiwere probably isn't that locative postposition gi, though I could be wrong, because Chiwere has its own rules, and it is true that locative and other case forms of demonstratives tend to replace and/or augment simple demonstrative forms, in Siouan and elsewhere, cf. English this here, that there; French ceci, cela; or just plain English yonder (directional) for yon. Jimm: Also, there is "jira'ra= here & there", however, it appears the first that "ji-" is contracted from "j(eg)i". John: I'd expect this form to be 'begins, starts, occurs in this direction repeatedly', one of those 'suddenly' auxiliaries, for which 'here and there' is not that unreasonable an English translation. The first is too precise for ordinary use. It may define the semantics, but it's unworkable as a translation in context. The j^i there would normally be the verb of motion, i.e., j^i 'to arrive here'. The next part is the positional, but in these constructions there's a special 'moving' positional homophonous with 'to go', i.e., re, and since it's reduplicated (to create the iterative, distributive sense), that re becomes rara (change of vowel normal in reduplication). So j^ire (matches OP thidhe) reduplicates to j^irara (matches OP thidhadha). The Dakotan forms would be hiya and hiyaya, which are used only as verbs of motion. The OP forms are used in context to mean 'to suddenly (and repeatedly) do ...', sort of like saying 'he went and ...' in English. I have the impression that Chiwere, and to some extent Winnebago, work the same as Dhegiha in this respect. Dakota has only a few frozen forms of this nature. Of course, in Siouan languages you can't just say 'go' or 'went' (specifying time, something irrelevant in Siouan), you have to specify some other things so this is 'arriving here (j^i), moving (re) repeatedly (reduplication or re)' or 'by fits and starts in this direction, stopping finally here', 'here and there (on the way hither)' etc. Jimm: John suggested another possibility, indeed, that "ji" is the verb "to arrive here". And while IOM, as do other Siouian languages, use several motion verbs together, this does not seem to be the case here. John: Agreed; the j^egiwere variant showed me the error of my ways! Jimm: "wa-" is a directional prefix indicating the action moves away from/ to a third point. There is another prefix "wa-", which is rendered as "something" and may convert verbs to noun. Each of these prefixes have different positions in the verb complex. John: Jimm, this is something I'm unfamiliar with. Do you have some examples? Jimm: "re" = "to go"; "ire'" = "to go across"; "hire'" = "go away/ depart/ leave/ arrive going"; John: These are motion verbs and motion verb compounds, from re 'to go', i 'to come', hi 'to arrive there'. The compounds tend to be rendered 'to cross', 'to pass', etc., and this is done consistently enough that I think it reflects the lexical sense of the verbs, and not just some convenient nonce English equation. The more analytic translations like 'coming here and going there' or 'arriving there and going there' => 'arrive (there) going (somewhere else)' help show how the more limited meanings arose. Jimm: "ware'" = "go from/ go towards"; "gawa're" = "go to there"; "iwa're" = "go from here/ go to specified place". John: I guess these are the wa forms Jimm was mentioning. I'll have to ponder them. Initially, I don't think that wa here would meet the needs of we in j^egiwere ~ j^iwere, because the vowel is different without any explanation of why. If anyone is still listening at this point, does anyone have comments on those wa-forms? From klokeid at victoria.tc.ca Tue Feb 1 07:59:34 2000 From: klokeid at victoria.tc.ca (Terry J. Klokeid) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 23:59:34 -0800 Subject: Sunroot use among First Nations Message-ID: Dear colleagues: I have a small seed selling operation and one of the plants I carry is the sunroot, Helianthus tuberosus. I am hoping to obtain more information about the use of this plant by Indians of Canada and the USA, as well as leads on the etymology of the name 'sunroot'. A member of the sunflower family, this plant has a tall stalk, similar to that of the sunflower, Helianthus annuus. Some varieties of sunroot, in a suitable climate, produce small flowers similar to the sunflower, though no viable seeds have ever been documented. Instead, the sunroot propagates through its underground tubers There are many dozens of varieties of the plant, with tubers ranging in size from small carrot to small pumpkin, and colours from bright white to tan to brown to red. Flavours vary just as much (as my seed catalogue demonstrates). You may know the sunroot under another name such as Jerusalem artichoke, or sunchoke, or topinambo(u)r. The sunroot is a native plant of Canada and adjacent parts of the USA. While its homeland is the eastern half of this country and its neighbour to the south, in Algonquian and Iroquoian territory, there is some evidence that sunroots were used by First Nations as far west as the Salish Sea, where I live. If anyone on this list has information about use of sunroots amomg First Nations, I would be most grateful to hear from them. When Samuel de Champlain was discovered on the shores of what are now the Maritime provinces, he was given some tubers to take back to Europe. Somehow the plant got confused with the tropical Calathea aliciae, and hence the French name, 'le topinambour', variously attributed to Arawak or Carib; possibly it is the same in both languages. When sunroot tubers reached London via a Dutch farm at Ter Neusen, Cockney rhyming slang came up with the humorous name 'artichoke of Jerusalem'. (The folk etymology, which derives 'Jerusalem' from Italian 'girasole', overlooks the facts that (1) '*artichoke of girasole' fits no nominal pattern of English while 'artichoke of Ter Neusen' is perfectly ordinary, and (2) - perhaps more subtley for the layman yet obvious to any linguist on this list -- 'girasole' and 'Jerusalem' have quite distinct stress patterns, so the latter could not be a simple assimilation of the former. I also wonder how many Cockney market sellers were familiar enough with both the Italian language and botanical taxonomy, to be able to tranfer 'girasole' from the species Helianthus annuus to the related sp. Helianthus tuberosus, since sunroots flower only rarely in the English climate, and so this would not be an obvious attribute to anyone who grew them there. -- But whatever the correct etymology of J.A. may be, my interest lies not in the Euro-terminology, but in the name 'sunroot' and the provenance of the plant in our own country as well as the USA.) Some people have claimed that the name 'sunroot' is based on the original (presumably Algonquian) name (Or Iroquoian name? Anybody happen to have a copy of Champlain's diaries at hand? I wasn't really paying attention in grade 5 social studies, when we did eastern Canada, and am rather vague about just where Champlain travelled.) Given this possible origin of the name 'sunroot', I am keen to learn what the name for this plant and its tubers might be --in any Algonquian, Iroquoian, or other Indian language. On another aspect -- Some programs, both here in BC and elsewhere, are supplying sunroot tubers for Indian seniors to eat, due to the high incidence of diabetes. The sunroot contains its carbohydratyes in the form of inulin, which can be readily digested by diabetics. I would be happy to share more informatuon about this, and if you know anyone who would like to grow sunroots for such purposes, I'll be happy to send them my catalogue, which describes about 7 of the 20 varieties that I grow. With best wishes, Terry Terry J. Klokeid, Ph.D. Amblewood Organic Farm 126 Amblewood Drive, Fulford Harbour Salt Spring Island BC V8K 1X2 Voice/Fax (250) 653-4099 email amblewood at mail.com "On a trouv? en bonne politique, le secret de faire mourir de faim ceux qui, en cultivant la terre, font vivre les autres." (Voltaire) From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Tue Feb 1 10:15:45 2000 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (SHEA KATHLEEN DORETTE) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 04:15:45 -0600 Subject: Sunroot use among First Nations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Melvin R Gilmore's _Uses of Plants by the Indians of the Missouri River Region_ (University of Nebraska Press, 1991; paperback ISBN 0-8032-7034-8) contains about a paragraph on Helianthus tuberosus (p. 79) and gives the common English, Dakota, Omaha, Winnebago, and Pawnee names. This book, with which you're probably familiar, is a reprint of the 1919 original, the 3rd Annual Report of the BAE. A more recent book, _Edible Wild Plants of the Prairie_ (University Press of Kansas, 1987; paperback ISBN 0-7006-0325-5), written by a local author here in Kansas, Kelly Kindscher, has a four-page write-up for Helianthus tuberosus, with a drawing of it on a fifth page (pp. 129-33). He gives the Cheyenne and Pawnee names for the plant and several common English names in addition to the Latin scientific name. (You might also be interested in Kelly Kindscher's _Medicinal Wild Plants of the Prairie_, although it doesn't mention Helianthus tuberosus.) I hope this information helps. Kathy Shea From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Feb 1 23:17:18 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:17:18 -0700 Subject: Sunroot use among First Nations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Terry J. Klokeid wrote: > I have a small seed selling operation and one of the plants I carry is the > sunroot, Helianthus tuberosus. > > I am hoping to obtain more information about the use of this plant by > Indians of Canada and the USA, as well as leads on the etymology of the > name 'sunroot'. I suppose sunroot is a calque of Heli(anthus) tuberosus. Sunchoke is the form I've run into in commercial contexts. I'd assumed this was a portmanteau of sunflower and artichoke, but maybe the two components are sunroot and artichoke. I've run into "sunchokes" in supermarkets in Colorado, and the usual distributors seem to be in California. > If anyone on this list has information about use of sunroots amomg First > Nations, I would be most grateful to hear from them. The Proto(Mississippi Valley) Siouan form was something like *hpaN'xi. The Omahas I asked about it used the word for 'radish'. The modern form is ppaN'ghe in Omaha in my limited experience, though I've seen ppaN'ghi in sources, I think. Dakotan has phaNghi'. I don't think the stem is attested outside Missippi Valley, though this is probably at least partly due to coincidences of distribution. I suppose there must be forms in Crow-Hidatsa and in Mandan. From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 2 00:06:03 2000 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 18:06:03 -0600 Subject: Sunroot use among First Nations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The Proto(Mississippi Valley) Siouan form was something like *hpaN'xi. > The Omahas I asked about it used the word for 'radish'. The modern > form is ppaN'ghe in Omaha in my limited experience, though I've seen > ppaN'ghi in sources, I think. Dakotan has phaNghi'. I don't think > the stem is attested outside Missippi Valley, though this is probably > at least partly due to coincidences of distribution. I suppose there > must be forms in Crow-Hidatsa and in Mandan. I guess I'm behind the curve on this one. I thought Terry was referring to the term that crops up (pun intended) in Dakotan as mdo/blo <*wVRo. In any event, it might be worthwhile calling his attention to those ethnobotanies by Huron Smith. I don't currently have the biblio nearby, but John would. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 2 05:45:56 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 22:45:56 -0700 Subject: Sunroot use among First Nations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Feb 2000, Robert L. Rankin wrote: > I guess I'm behind the curve on this one. I thought Terry was referring > to the term that crops up (pun intended) in Dakotan as mdo/blo <*wVRo. I think I have the terms sorted properly. That's the *pro < **wVro '(wild) potato' stem. The vegetable that gave Trickster gas ... At least as Gilmore and Dorsey have them sorted out. > In any event, it might be worthwhile calling his attention to those > ethnobotanies by Huron Smith. I don't currently have the biblio nearby, > but John would. Ah, now you've put me on the spot. There's a series of these, published by the Milwaukee Museum of Natural History. H.K. Smith visited most (all?) of the tribes resident in Wisconsin and published lists of terms with some comentary in the Museum's proceedings. As he was in the process of editing the Oneida and Winnebago ones, if I recall properly, he took the family out for a drive one Sunday in the 1920's and they were all killed in a collision at a train crossing - a sad event recalling the later fate of the Chapmans. The uncompleted manuscripts for these are in the ms. holdings of the Museum and somewhere I have xeroxes of these obtained through the good offices of Nancy Lurie. Bob, wasn't somebody editing the Winnebago ms. for publication? (Return service barely clears the net.) Unfortunately, this portion of my office is still not unpacked from my move. If Terry or anyone else is interested, I will do the necessary excavation. By the way, if you need a new snail mail address - let me know! JEK From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 2 14:55:02 2000 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:55:02 -0600 Subject: Sunroot use among First Nations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I think I have the terms sorted properly. That's the *pro < **wVro > '(wild) potato' stem. The vegetable that gave Trickster gas ... At > least as Gilmore and Dorsey have them sorted out. OK. The *hpaNxi term is, as I recall, only found in the Mississippi Valley Siouan subgroup. The *wVro term is pan-Siouan and there is an potential reflex in Catawba also. > Ah, now you've put me on the spot. There's a series of these, > published by the Milwaukee Museum of Natural History. H.K. Smith > visited most (all?) of the tribes resident in Wisconsin and published > lists of terms with some comentary in the Museum's proceedings. As he > was in the process of editing the Oneida and Winnebago ones, if I > recall properly, he took the family out for a drive one Sunday in the > 1920's and they were all killed in a collision at a train crossing - a > sad event recalling the later fate of the Chapmans. The uncompleted > manuscripts for these are in the ms. holdings of the Museum and > somewhere I have xeroxes of these obtained through the good offices of > Nancy Lurie. Right. I know they exist for Menomini and Oneida and I think Fox at least. Sorry, I forgot about your recent move. Your office probably looks like mine. > Bob, wasn't somebody editing the Winnebago ms. for publication? Yes, Kelly Kindscher and someone else I believe published it but didn't get the vowel length in every instance. One could try just doing a name search on K.K. using Netscape and see if it emerges. Bob From BGalloway at sifc.edu Tue Feb 8 23:17:12 2000 From: BGalloway at sifc.edu (Galloway, Brent) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:17:12 -0600 Subject: Sunroot use among First Nations Message-ID: Terry, Interesting e-mail about the sunchoke and your research and development on it. I can't contribute much, but I did find the plant and its name in Upriver Halkomelem. The elders called it 'wild artichoke' and showed me samples from Sardis and Seabird Island, which I dried in a plant press and took to Nancy Turner to help me identify. As I suspected from the botany books, it was Jerusalem artichoke (Helianthus tuberosus). The Upriver Halkomelem word for it is xa'xakw' (where both x's should be underlined in the Sto':lo writing system used in the Fraser Valley, showing that they are uvular, the first a should have an acute accent showing it has high tone and is equivalent to digraph/ash, and the last kw' is for a glottalized labialized velar stop. The literal meaning is probably 'wedged in'. It is one of several kinds of "Indian potato" according to the elders. It has an edible root or bulb. Could be eaten raw, cooked or dried. Grew on Seabird Island and by Chehalis, within their (Sto':lo) territory. (Sto':lo in the orthography has an o [phonemically and phonetically [a], with an acute accent over it (high phonemic tone), followed by : for phonemic length, and the final o should have a macron over it [o]. This is written up in my Upper Sto':lo Ethnobotany, published by Coqualeetza Education Training Centre in 1982 and used as a teacher's guide in the Sto':lo Si'tel Indian studies curriculum used in the Fraser Valley school system for a number of years (maybe even still used there). I'm doing some work in field methods course this semester with Leona Kroeskamp on Assiniboine and I will ask her if she knows the plant and knows a term for it in Assiniboine. Hope this helps. Brent Galloway -----Original Message----- From: Terry J. Klokeid [SMTP:klokeid at victoria.tc.ca] Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 2:00 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Sunroot use among First Nations Dear colleagues: I have a small seed selling operation and one of the plants I carry is the sunroot, Helianthus tuberosus. I am hoping to obtain more information about the use of this plant by Indians of Canada and the USA, as well as leads on the etymology of the name 'sunroot'. A member of the sunflower family, this plant has a tall stalk, similar to that of the sunflower, Helianthus annuus. Some varieties of sunroot, in a suitable climate, produce small flowers similar to the sunflower, though no viable seeds have ever been documented. Instead, the sunroot propagates through its underground tubers There are many dozens of varieties of the plant, with tubers ranging in size from small carrot to small pumpkin, and colours from bright white to tan to brown to red. Flavours vary just as much (as my seed catalogue demonstrates). You may know the sunroot under another name such as Jerusalem artichoke, or sunchoke, or topinambo(u)r. The sunroot is a native plant of Canada and adjacent parts of the USA. While its homeland is the eastern half of this country and its neighbour to the south, in Algonquian and Iroquoian territory, there is some evidence that sunroots were used by First Nations as far west as the Salish Sea, where I live. If anyone on this list has information about use of sunroots amomg First Nations, I would be most grateful to hear from them. When Samuel de Champlain was discovered on the shores of what are now the Maritime provinces, he was given some tubers to take back to Europe. Somehow the plant got confused with the tropical Calathea aliciae, and hence the French name, 'le topinambour', variously attributed to Arawak or Carib; possibly it is the same in both languages. When sunroot tubers reached London via a Dutch farm at Ter Neusen, Cockney rhyming slang came up with the humorous name 'artichoke of Jerusalem'. (The folk etymology, which derives 'Jerusalem' from Italian 'girasole', overlooks the facts that (1) '*artichoke of girasole' fits no nominal pattern of English while 'artichoke of Ter Neusen' is perfectly ordinary, and (2) - perhaps more subtley for the layman yet obvious to any linguist on this list -- 'girasole' and 'Jerusalem' have quite distinct stress patterns, so the latter could not be a simple assimilation of the former. I also wonder how many Cockney market sellers were familiar enough with both the Italian language and botanical taxonomy, to be able to tranfer 'girasole' from the species Helianthus annuus to the related sp. Helianthus tuberosus, since sunroots flower only rarely in the English climate, and so this would not be an obvious attribute to anyone who grew them there. -- But whatever the correct etymology of J.A. may be, my interest lies not in the Euro-terminology, but in the name 'sunroot' and the provenance of the plant in our own country as well as the USA.) Some people have claimed that the name 'sunroot' is based on the original (presumably Algonquian) name (Or Iroquoian name? Anybody happen to have a copy of Champlain's diaries at hand? I wasn't really paying attention in grade 5 social studies, when we did eastern Canada, and am rather vague about just where Champlain travelled.) Given this possible origin of the name 'sunroot', I am keen to learn what the name for this plant and its tubers might be --in any Algonquian, Iroquoian, or other Indian language. On another aspect -- Some programs, both here in BC and elsewhere, are supplying sunroot tubers for Indian seniors to eat, due to the high incidence of diabetes. The sunroot contains its carbohydratyes in the form of inulin, which can be readily digested by diabetics. I would be happy to share more informatuon about this, and if you know anyone who would like to grow sunroots for such purposes, I'll be happy to send them my catalogue, which describes about 7 of the 20 varieties that I grow. With best wishes, Terry Terry J. Klokeid, Ph.D. Amblewood Organic Farm 126 Amblewood Drive, Fulford Harbour Salt Spring Island BC V8K 1X2 Voice/Fax (250) 653-4099 email amblewood at mail.com "On a trouv? en bonne politique, le secret de faire mourir de faim ceux qui, en cultivant la terre, font vivre les autres." (Voltaire) From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Feb 21 18:05:22 2000 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:05:22 -0600 Subject: CHIWERE etymology Message-ID: The Hdbk. Amer. Indians (1907, I. 287) gives the meaning of CHIWERE as 'belonging to this place; the home people', presumably following Dorsey. Can anyone confirm that and/or amplify on it? And provide the earliest occurrence (? Dorsey c. 1880). Thanks, Alan From mosind at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 01:07:24 2000 From: mosind at yahoo.com (Constantine Xmelnitski) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:07:24 -0800 Subject: D.Rood & A.Taylor's "Sketch of Lakhota" online! Message-ID: Dear Siouanists: With a permission of David and Smithsonian Inst. I published the "Sketch of Lakhota, a Siouan Language", (H.N.A.I. Vol.17, pp.440-82). http://www.wablenica.newmail.ru/lakhota.htm The Lakhota spellings are NetSiouan and Colorado (in Unicode). I would be very glad for the feedback (re misprints etc.) either thru the List or thru my email: wablenica at mail.ru Presently I'm preparing the online version of "Dakota Grammar" of Boas & Deloria! Toks^a, c^hiyepi! Connie. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Feb 22 01:11:58 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 18:11:58 -0700 Subject: CHIWERE etymology In-Reply-To: <38B17E62.5869C3EE@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > The Hdbk. Amer. Indians (1907, I. 287) gives the meaning of CHIWERE as > 'belonging to this place; the home people', presumably following Dorsey. > Can anyone confirm that and/or amplify on it? And provide the earliest > occurrence (? Dorsey c. 1880). I can't access the file at the moment, but doesn't Dorsey discuss the Dhegiha term in the Phonology of 5? (4?) Siouan languages paper, too? I think that's c. 1895. That might be the place to look, by analogy. Chiwere is from Jiwere (or jiwele, c^iwere, c^iwele, depending on how the liquid and the unaspirated c^ are written). Rankin generally recommends using j^ for c^ (vs. c^h, I think, for c^h), in order to maximize the attention drawn to the aspiration distinction, which is regularly and thoroughly (though not universally) overlooked in Ioway-Otoe-Missouria work. The j^i stem should be *t-hi 'to arrive here' (<**re-hi), as PS (post)aspirates end up as voiced in Ioway-Otoe and Winnebago. If it were c^h it would be from *hti (the PREaspirate), which would be 'to dwell'. The latter is not the root that occurs here. The -were part could, I suppose, involve the we 'horizontal positional' stem. That is, this could be based on one of the 'suddenly' verbs, analogous to Dhegiha (cf. OP) thihe. Cf. Good Tracks's dictionary j^iwe 'to fall, come down lying'. (Here and below I convert his j to j^.) But the final -re is a problem, I think, as this slot should have the causative, if anything, which would be -hi. That would produce *j^iwehi (not attested, but probably valid, though not as the name in question!). Good Tracks does list j^irehi 'to remove, subtravct, take away', which is the causative of j^ire, another 'suddenly' stem, which is glossed 'to get up, rise up, begin, commence'. Good Tracks cites the ablauted form j^ira. This is analogous to OP thidhe, or Dakota hiya. These forms reduplicate as j^irara, thidhadha, and hiyaya. If the stem in j^iwere is j^ire, then we is some sort of inflectional or derivational inclusion, apparently -wa-(something?)i-. I'm not sure what at the moment. All things considered, probably the simplest thing is to mark the form 'name in Ioway-Otoe-Missouria of the Otoe (not certainly analyzable)'. From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Tue Feb 22 17:41:20 2000 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (SHEA KATHLEEN DORETTE) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 11:41:20 -0600 Subject: heyoka mistranslation In-Reply-To: <8525688D.005CAE0E.00@harcourtbrace.com> Message-ID: Mr. Masthay, I'm going to forward your question to the Siouan list so that someone who reads it may answer it. Even though I said that I am a Siouanist, I study Ponca, in the Dhegiha branch of the Siouan language family. I'm in Oklahoma right now and don't have my Dakota mateials with me, and, anyway, someone who studies one of the Dakota dialects could probably give you a better translation of the material you quote. Kathy Shea On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 carl.masthay at harcourt.com wrote: > > > Hi, Kathleen, by golly, I do have a Siouan question for you on my mistranslation > from > message #577 on the site Village of First Nations > ("http://www.firstnations.com/cgi-bin/postit?login=fnai&topic=forum/culture/culture&order=date&article=577"): > > OK, so I don't know Lakota, and I should have translated the long sentence in > #576, but here > are the words I dragged out of the dictionary as well as I could: 'Winter, and > within-red... not > (emphatic) warm, and red... not then with[fire?] this un(?)-clown/trickster > (men's emphatic final > particle)'. So maybe that is: 'Winter may look red but it is not really warm, > and so what looks red > may not be a fire(?) with this trickster.' Help me, someone! I'm sure that I > botched it up! Carl > [Kathleen, can you provide a better translation? Pilamaya, Carl] > > "Osni, yunkan tiyoceyati s'ni nak.e' mas'te, yunkan ceyati s'ni ehan on le > heyonika yelo," as is > said to one when he once had a fire while they called it warm weather. > > > (Message #576:) Following up on Gary Senkowski's corrected spelling, I found > this in my > Lakota-English Dictionary by Buechel (1970): > heyo'ka, a clown. According to Riggs this is the name of a Dakota god called by > some the > anti-natural god. He is represented as a little old man with a cocked hat on his > head, a bow > and arrows in his hands and a quiver on his back. In winter he goes naked, and > in the summer > he wraps his buffalo robe around himself. "Osni, yunkan tiyoceyati s'ni nak.e' > mas'te, yunkan > ceyati s'ni ehan on le heyonika yelo," as is said to one when he once had a fire > while they > called it warm weather. > heyo'ka oti', the house or place where a heyoka does his wakan work. > In addition, there is this curious name of a plant: > heyo'ka tapeju'ta, red false mallow, prairie mallow, Malvastrum coccineum. A > gray moss root. > Magicians chewed their roots and rubbed their hands with it and so could dip > them into the > hottest water without being scalded. (But Sam Terry denied those qualities.) The > roots > chewed and laid on sores have a healing effect. > ------------------------------------------------ Gary had earlier e-mailed me > the following: > I found that there is a heyoka wheel. It represents all that is not what seems. > For example, > when in the southern hemisphere it would appear that the sun rises in the west > and sets in the > east. Heyoka means trickster, or jester. The medicine of not what it seems, > turning things > upside down. > > > From ahartley at d.umn.edu Tue Feb 22 19:48:40 2000 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:48:40 -0600 Subject: CHIWERE etymology Message-ID: Thanks, John. Hodge's Hdbk I.287 s.v. Chiwere has the following Dorsey forms: Ti-re'-wi (1879) 'Ce'kiwere (1880) 'Ciwere (1880) Tcekiwere (1882) Tciwere (1882; Dorsey?) Tcekiwere (1884; T, c and k inverted) Can the Dorseyists among you explain these? From egooding at iupui.edu Tue Feb 22 19:48:33 2000 From: egooding at iupui.edu (Erik D Gooding) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:48:33 -0500 Subject: heyoka mistranslation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As I've already email Mr. Mashtay, I believe that this sentence, taken from Father B's definition of aheyoka, contains a typo, that second s'ni should be the conintuative s'na, 'he's always having a fire'. that expresses the contrary nature of the heyoka. Perhaps Ray DeMallie can run into the other room there at AISRI and check to see which way Father B wrote it on his slips. But my gut says its either an expression of the period and/or a typo. Erik P.S. JEK, I'll get to our conversation about stress/pitch/accent here shortly, if I ever get my dissertation done, I can think of other things! On Tue, 22 Feb 2000, SHEA KATHLEEN DORETTE wrote: > Mr. Masthay, > > I'm going to forward your question to the Siouan list so that someone who > reads it may answer it. Even though I said that I am a Siouanist, I study > Ponca, in the Dhegiha branch of the Siouan language family. I'm in > Oklahoma right now and don't have my Dakota mateials with me, and, anyway, > someone who studies one of the Dakota dialects could probably give you a > better translation of the material you quote. > > Kathy Shea > > On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 carl.masthay at harcourt.com wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, Kathleen, by golly, I do have a Siouan question for you on my mistranslation > > from > > message #577 on the site Village of First Nations > > ("http://www.firstnations.com/cgi-bin/postit?login=fnai&topic=forum/culture/culture&order=date&article=577"): > > > > OK, so I don't know Lakota, and I should have translated the long sentence in > > #576, but here > > are the words I dragged out of the dictionary as well as I could: 'Winter, and > > within-red... not > > (emphatic) warm, and red... not then with[fire?] this un(?)-clown/trickster > > (men's emphatic final > > particle)'. So maybe that is: 'Winter may look red but it is not really warm, > > and so what looks red > > may not be a fire(?) with this trickster.' Help me, someone! I'm sure that I > > botched it up! Carl > > [Kathleen, can you provide a better translation? Pilamaya, Carl] > > > > "Osni, yunkan tiyoceyati s'ni nak.e' mas'te, yunkan ceyati s'ni ehan on le > > heyonika yelo," as is > > said to one when he once had a fire while they called it warm weather. > > > > > > (Message #576:) Following up on Gary Senkowski's corrected spelling, I found > > this in my > > Lakota-English Dictionary by Buechel (1970): > > heyo'ka, a clown. According to Riggs this is the name of a Dakota god called by > > some the > > anti-natural god. He is represented as a little old man with a cocked hat on his > > head, a bow > > and arrows in his hands and a quiver on his back. In winter he goes naked, and > > in the summer > > he wraps his buffalo robe around himself. "Osni, yunkan tiyoceyati s'ni nak.e' > > mas'te, yunkan > > ceyati s'ni ehan on le heyonika yelo," as is said to one when he once had a fire > > while they > > called it warm weather. > > heyo'ka oti', the house or place where a heyoka does his wakan work. > > In addition, there is this curious name of a plant: > > heyo'ka tapeju'ta, red false mallow, prairie mallow, Malvastrum coccineum. A > > gray moss root. > > Magicians chewed their roots and rubbed their hands with it and so could dip > > them into the > > hottest water without being scalded. (But Sam Terry denied those qualities.) The > > roots > > chewed and laid on sores have a healing effect. > > ------------------------------------------------ Gary had earlier e-mailed me > > the following: > > I found that there is a heyoka wheel. It represents all that is not what seems. > > For example, > > when in the southern hemisphere it would appear that the sun rises in the west > > and sets in the > > east. Heyoka means trickster, or jester. The medicine of not what it seems, > > turning things > > upside down. > > > > > > > From jggoodtracks at juno.com Wed Feb 23 05:11:38 2000 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:11:38 -0600 Subject: CHIWERE etymology Message-ID: Alan Hartley: As John says, Dorsey discussed "Ji'were" for the similar term in OP, and mentioned of it for IOM. Like John, I have Dorsey's notation somewhere, but haven't a clue as to where I can find it for an exact quote or reference here. And as he explained it's glossed meaning referrs to "People of this place" or as I recall, somewhere given as "People from here", which begins to approach something of a literal meaning. A more exact rendition is "(we/I) go from here": The term for "here" is usually "igi/ jegi" or some derivation [See p.161, IOMDict]. "je/ jegi" signifies "here/ right here/ at" thus suggesting this place right here. Also, there is "jira'ra= here & there", however, it appears the first that "ji-" is contracted from "j(eg)i". John suggested another possibility, indeed, that "ji" is the verb "to arrive here". And while IOM, as do other Siouian languages, use several motion verbs together, this does not seem to be the case here. "wa-" is a directional prefix indicating the action moves away from/ to a third point. There is another prefix "wa-", which is rendered as "something" and may convert verbs to noun. Each of these prefixes have different positions in the verb complex. "re" = "to go"; "ire'" = "to go across"; "hire'" = "go away/ depart/ leave/ arrive going"; "ware'" = "go from/ go towards"; "gawa're" = "go to there"; "iwa're" = "go from here/ go to specified place". Thus, "Je (here)" + "wa (from)" + "hire (arrive going)". Note: "wa> we" before "(h)i". Contractions occur frequently in IOM. This discussion confirms the my commitment to expand the First Edition IOM Dictionary into the unabridged version that would address these kinds of questions, with supporting examples and opportunity for comparitive analysis. As far as Dorsey's variations of the term, can wait on another dialog at another time, perhaps when his Dhegiha reference is located. Furthermore, I have no idea when the term began to be used by the OM People. Perhaps, John can give some idea as to when it became used by linguists. I imagine the People adopted it when the Missionaries discouraged the use of their previous traditional designation. Jimm GoodTracks On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:05:22 -0600 "Alan H. Hartley" writes: >The Hdbk. Amer. Indians (1907, I. 287) gives the meaning of CHIWERE >as >'belonging to this place; the home people', presumably following >Dorsey. >Can anyone confirm that and/or amplify on it? And provide the >earliest >occurrence (? Dorsey c. 1880). > >Thanks, > >Alan > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 23 06:35:29 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:35:29 -0700 Subject: CHIWERE etymology In-Reply-To: <38B2E818.5B5CC05@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Feb 2000, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > Hodge's Hdbk I.287 s.v. Chiwere has the following Dorsey forms: > > Ti-re'-wi (1879) Not in IO form. Not clear what it is. > 'Ce'kiwere (1880) > 'Ciwere (1880) > Tcekiwere (1882) > Tciwere (1882; Dorsey?) Successive pairs of orthographic variants for J^egiwere, J^iwere. > Tcekiwere (1884; T, c and k inverted) Additional orthographic variant of first form in pair only, confirming lack of aspiration in tc (i.e., t + s^, representing c^) and k, or, actually, since unaspirated, j^ and g. The variants J^egiwere ~ J^iwere shed additional light on the form. It appears that the first element is probably j^e 'this', and that it becomes j^i only by contraction with a following i, i.e., probably the underlying forms are j^e'=giwere and j^(e)'=iwere. Again, I don't thing I'm completely sure of the inflectional/derivational forms involved in the gi- and i-, but now we have something more or less parallel with OP dhe'=giha. j^e gi we re dhe gi ha 0 this VERTITIVE? HORIZONTAL-POSITIONAL ??? The final -re is still a bit of a mystery, but checking the Dorsey OP texts for -gih- turns up only a series of examples of e'=gihE glossed '(headlong|right) (0|into|through|beneath)'. Here the first element is e 'the aforesaid, it', and the second element is a stem somewhere along the path between verb and postposition. This stem occurs as gihe mostly, but as giha sometimes, when followed by =xti, and, interestingly, when followed by a verb of motion (beginning in its own separate a) or a 'suddenly' auxiliary. A typical 'suddenly' auxiliary is idhe, which may explain the -re of the Chiwere form. Somebody recently (last SIuan COnference?) suggested a term (in actual use in other language families) for 'suddenly' auxiliaries. Anyone know or remember it? Note that 0 (nothing) or 'into' are typical in the glosses, e.g., with such things as a thicket, while 'through' occurs with lodge smoke holes, and 'beneath (the surface of)' with water. I'm going to guess that dhe'=giha and e'=gihE involve the same stem gihe, posibly made up of the elements VERTITIVE + HORIZONTAL, and that it covers the sense 'pertain/belong to, be(come) an element of, enter (completely) into'. The available derivatives seem rather lexicalized. Ioway-Otoe seems to have the a parallel construction j^e'=(g)iwe=re, which requires the addition of a 'suddenly' auxiliary =re. Note that Bob Rankin is always on the lookout for cases of causative =re in Chiwere, and this is one that I'd have a hard time fighting off, without a lot of supporting paradigmatic information that's probably not available, in spite of my instincts. I don't understand why sometimes gi and sometimes i, though i- is an initial component of positional verbs, and in OP forms like ihe=...dhe (dhe is the causative here) mean 'to lay (horizontally)', and in these ihe is i=he 'motion hither' + 'horizonal', which can occur independently, e.g., as a 'suddenly' auxiliary. Note that LaFlesche maintains that Dhegiha is in no sense an ethnonym and essentially means something like 'a member of the same team for a game'. This is not too different from what Dorsey claimed, i.e., 'a local, a member of the group', though he may also have considered the term suitable as a self-designation for Omahas, etc. By analogy it would appear that Chiwere was posssibly once only a possible internal designation for the Otoe, and not (originally) a name in the proper sense, especially not one that others might apply to them. As such, speculatively, it might even have been something an Ioway might have said of him or herself at some point in the (forgotten) past, before it came to imply 'Otoe' in a specific way. It's interesting that Ioway has that /we/ form for the horizonal positional. It's /he/ in Dhegiha, and the correspondence w:h isn't regular, except ... OP has uhe 'to follow' (< *ophe) and IO has uwe'. Unfortunately, the rest of Dhegiha has, as far as I know, reflexes of h in the positional and reflexes of ph (with the p intact) in the verb, cf. Osage ops^e. If there's anything in this, either gihe:giwe(re) don't involve the positional, or perhaps we're seeing the origin of the positional? > Can the Dorseyists among you explain these? Well, I've tried! The simple answer is now something along these lines: J^(e)(g)iwere may be something like 'belonging here; located here; one of these', from j^e 'this' and (g)iwere, a (set of related) lexicalized form(s) meaning something like 'belong to, be located at, be one of', cf. Dhegiha, an Omaha-Ponca term with a parallel analysis. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 23 06:52:15 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:52:15 -0700 Subject: CHIWERE etymology In-Reply-To: <38B2E818.5B5CC05@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Feb 2000, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > Hodge's Hdbk I.287 s.v. Chiwere has the following Dorsey forms: > > Ti-re'-wi (1879) A thought. This may be a variant of the Irish version, Tiperewi, cf. "Tipperary." This is much mangled from the original J^egiwere, but, then, they were a long way from the Ti(pe)rewi. Consider this my contribution to the April postings. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Feb 23 15:08:20 2000 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:08:20 -0600 Subject: CHIWERE etymology Message-ID: > A thought. This may be a variant of the Irish version, Tiperewi I always knew Koontz was a good Irish name! From FurbeeL at missouri.edu Wed Feb 23 16:49:52 2000 From: FurbeeL at missouri.edu (Louanna Furbee) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:49:52 -0600 Subject: CHIWERE etymology In-Reply-To: <38B17E62.5869C3EE@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Alan, This is news to me. As far as I know there is no satisfactory gloss for Chiwere, although some of the historical types might dig out an etymology for it. I had no idea Dorsey had an analysis or gloss. None of my informants were very helpful, but that may be because there is a story about taboo behavior engaged in by Otoes when they were first affiliated with the Missourias, and one of the names for Otoes makes reference to it. I'll have to look some of that stuff up. Just got back from AAAS meeting in DC. Sorry to be late in replying. I'm copying in Jill Davidson and Lori Stanley to see if they have any help to offer. Best, Louanna >The Hdbk. Amer. Indians (1907, I. 287) gives the meaning of CHIWERE as >'belonging to this place; the home people', presumably following Dorsey. >Can anyone confirm that and/or amplify on it? And provide the earliest >occurrence (? Dorsey c. 1880). > >Thanks, > >Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Feb 24 21:22:44 2000 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:22:44 -0600 Subject: CHIWERE etymology Message-ID: Thanks to Jimm, John and Louanna: Jimm and John, do you think it might be possible to reach a fairly high-confidence consensus between your etymological suggestions? And John, I was interested in the Dhegiha/Chiwere parallels. Louanna: > taboo behavior engaged in by Otoes when they were first affiliated > with the Missourias, and one of the names for Otoes makes reference to it. > Jimm and Bob Rankin have posted messages touching on this subject. Thanks very much for inquiring of your informants and for looking things up. I don't want to send anyone on a wild goose-chase, but I do want OED ethnonym etymologies to take account of everything we know. Best regards, Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Feb 28 07:45:06 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 00:45:06 -0700 Subject: D.Rood & A.Taylor's "Sketch of Lakhota" online! In-Reply-To: <20000222010724.11142.qmail@web119.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: > With a permission of David and Smithsonian Inst. I > published the "Sketch of Lakhota, a Siouan Language", > (H.N.A.I. Vol.17, pp.440-82). > http://www.wablenica.newmail.ru/lakhota.htm Sure enough! I checked it out quickly. It's nice to have this reference accessible via the Net. Note that you can search the text using your browser's search mechanisms. > The Lakhota spellings are NetSiouan and Colorado (in > Unicode). It could be something about my setup, but in the NetSiouan version glottal stop appears as ~~~ on my system. I also happened to notice a small typo (without really checking for such things or noticing any others): 1.4.1. /w y h/ at the Beginning of a Words (Spurious plural) > Presently I'm preparing the online version of "Dakota > Grammar" of Boas & Deloria! That will be another coup! WibadhahaN! From mosind at yahoo.com Tue Feb 29 03:32:33 2000 From: mosind at yahoo.com (Constantine Xmelnitski) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 19:32:33 -0800 Subject: D.Rood & A.Taylor's "Sketch of Lakhota" online! Message-ID: --- Koontz John E wrote: > It could be something about my setup, but in the > NetSiouan version glottal > stop appears as ~~~ on my system. My fault - fixed. > > I also happened to notice a small typo (without > really checking for such > things or noticing any others): > > 1.4.1. /w y h/ at the Beginning of a Words > > (Spurious plural) Fixed. Thank you, John! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From soup at vm.inext.cz Tue Feb 29 06:45:27 2000 From: soup at vm.inext.cz (SOUP) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 07:45:27 +0100 Subject: Two object pronouns in a transitive verb Message-ID: I have been transcribing Buechel's Lakhota version of Bible, phonemizing it and supplying it with literal and free translation. During the work I came upon a transitive verb with two object pronouns in it: nima'kahipi ( Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Feb 2000, SOUP wrote: > I have been transcribing Buechel's Lakhota version of Bible, phonemizing it > and supplying it with literal and free translation. During the work I came > upon a transitive verb with two object pronouns in it: > > nima'kahipi ( (Pilate talking to Jesus, pp. 282; 1924) > > I only know the use of two object pronouns in few stative verbs, but I have > never encountered this kind of construction in a transitive verb (and I > don't recall it being described in any of the works on Lakhota known to me). I'd tend to suspect that this form popped into existence to accomodate the context, but cannot affirm this. > 6) If it is not regular to use two object pronouns in a transitive verb, how > would Lakhotas express sentences of the type: "They brought you to me"? In Omaha I'd expect something like '(they) having me, they came to you', or something on the order of aN'dhiN s^=athi'=i (or aN'dhiN s^=ahi'=i, or aN'dhiN s^=agdhi'=i, or aN'dhiN s^=akhi'=i, depending on where there was). The closest analog I've noticed is aN'dhiN akhi=i 'having me, they went back'. The 'to you' sense is regularly expressed, however, by the proclitic s^u 'thither (near you)', which regularly contracts to s^ before the a-prefix common in third person plurals (and singulars in OP) of motion verbs. Note that the verb 'to have' is a...dhiN, but the a-prefix regularly contracts with first person aN as aN'-, hence aN'dhiN, not *aaN'dhiN. One might wonder if the a was simply not being heard, but I think not, because 'have for me' is iN'dhiN, not *aiN'dhiN or *e'iNdhiN or *e'aNdhiN. The rule for forming datives with or without various locative sequences is to insert gi or change a vowel (e.g., form aN to aiN or a to e) or vowels. I won't go into the details, which are convoluted and depend on the locative present (or the absence of the locative). In this case the change shows that there is no a present, however. Note that the vowel that changes is not always the vowel next to the putative slot for any underlying gi, hence my reluctance to define tha change int erms of contraction with gi, though this is likely to be the historical origin of the change. For example, aNg + a + (putative gi) + stem produces iNg-a-stem. (This is by memory, but I htink it's right.) Anyway, this 'having + Verb of motion' construct is the most common way of saying 'bring' or 'take' in OP. The usual equivalent of 'send' is 'cause + Verb of motion'. Note: iN'dhiN gi=ga! 'having (it) for me come back (male imp)', i.e., 'bring it for me!'. This can also be 'bring it (or him) to me'. Another verb used with verbs of motion is dhighe 'to pursue': dhighe athi'=i 'pursuing him they came', etc. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Feb 29 15:50:20 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:50:20 -0700 Subject: Two object pronouns in a transitive verb In-Reply-To: <001a01bf8280$ae93a680$c9006fd4@default> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Feb 2000, SOUP wrote: > Considering that kahi' is a verb requiring three participants this use of > pronouns seems quite logical. Thinking further, I seem to recall that kahi is an example of a comitative structure used in Dakotan, involving prefixing k- to a verb of motion, like ahi. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Feb 29 19:35:01 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:35:01 -0700 Subject: CHIWERE etymology In-Reply-To: <38B5A124.AABC7143@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Feb 2000, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > Jimm and John, do you think it might be possible to reach a fairly > high-confidence consensus between your etymological suggestions? And > John, I was interested in the Dhegiha/Chiwere parallels. I'll see what I can cook up. I haven't heard from Jim. I thought I was pretty well on track with take 2. Jimm added: A more exact rendition is "(we/I) go from here": The term for "here" is usually "igi/ jegi" or some derivation [See p.161, IOMDict]. "je/ jegi" signifies "here/ right here/ at" thus suggesting this place right here. John: =gi (the = just marking an enclitic boundary) is 'at' (the locative postposition), which is =gi in Chiwere and Winnebago, vs. =di in OP and =l ~ =tu in Dakotan. The Chiwere and Winnebago forms are cognate with each other, as are the Dhegiha and Dakotan ones, but the two sets (*ki and *tu) are not cognate with each other. i- is either a raised version of e= or just i 'it', which tends to replace e= in Chiwere and Winnebago. I've never felt that I knew which was happening or in which degree both were happening. So igi and j^egi are analogs of OP edi, dhedi and Teton el, lel. All these forms are the generic demonstrative (it, that aforementioned) and the proximal demonstrative (this) combined with a locative postposition. This said, I think that the gi in j^egiwere probably isn't that locative postposition gi, though I could be wrong, because Chiwere has its own rules, and it is true that locative and other case forms of demonstratives tend to replace and/or augment simple demonstrative forms, in Siouan and elsewhere, cf. English this here, that there; French ceci, cela; or just plain English yonder (directional) for yon. Jimm: Also, there is "jira'ra= here & there", however, it appears the first that "ji-" is contracted from "j(eg)i". John: I'd expect this form to be 'begins, starts, occurs in this direction repeatedly', one of those 'suddenly' auxiliaries, for which 'here and there' is not that unreasonable an English translation. The first is too precise for ordinary use. It may define the semantics, but it's unworkable as a translation in context. The j^i there would normally be the verb of motion, i.e., j^i 'to arrive here'. The next part is the positional, but in these constructions there's a special 'moving' positional homophonous with 'to go', i.e., re, and since it's reduplicated (to create the iterative, distributive sense), that re becomes rara (change of vowel normal in reduplication). So j^ire (matches OP thidhe) reduplicates to j^irara (matches OP thidhadha). The Dakotan forms would be hiya and hiyaya, which are used only as verbs of motion. The OP forms are used in context to mean 'to suddenly (and repeatedly) do ...', sort of like saying 'he went and ...' in English. I have the impression that Chiwere, and to some extent Winnebago, work the same as Dhegiha in this respect. Dakota has only a few frozen forms of this nature. Of course, in Siouan languages you can't just say 'go' or 'went' (specifying time, something irrelevant in Siouan), you have to specify some other things so this is 'arriving here (j^i), moving (re) repeatedly (reduplication or re)' or 'by fits and starts in this direction, stopping finally here', 'here and there (on the way hither)' etc. Jimm: John suggested another possibility, indeed, that "ji" is the verb "to arrive here". And while IOM, as do other Siouian languages, use several motion verbs together, this does not seem to be the case here. John: Agreed; the j^egiwere variant showed me the error of my ways! Jimm: "wa-" is a directional prefix indicating the action moves away from/ to a third point. There is another prefix "wa-", which is rendered as "something" and may convert verbs to noun. Each of these prefixes have different positions in the verb complex. John: Jimm, this is something I'm unfamiliar with. Do you have some examples? Jimm: "re" = "to go"; "ire'" = "to go across"; "hire'" = "go away/ depart/ leave/ arrive going"; John: These are motion verbs and motion verb compounds, from re 'to go', i 'to come', hi 'to arrive there'. The compounds tend to be rendered 'to cross', 'to pass', etc., and this is done consistently enough that I think it reflects the lexical sense of the verbs, and not just some convenient nonce English equation. The more analytic translations like 'coming here and going there' or 'arriving there and going there' => 'arrive (there) going (somewhere else)' help show how the more limited meanings arose. Jimm: "ware'" = "go from/ go towards"; "gawa're" = "go to there"; "iwa're" = "go from here/ go to specified place". John: I guess these are the wa forms Jimm was mentioning. I'll have to ponder them. Initially, I don't think that wa here would meet the needs of we in j^egiwere ~ j^iwere, because the vowel is different without any explanation of why. If anyone is still listening at this point, does anyone have comments on those wa-forms?