From jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu Tue Jan 4 03:58:53 2000 From: jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu (John P. Boyle) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 21:58:53 -0600 Subject: LSA & Dinner Message-ID: Dear all, After having heard from many of you it seems that dinner would be a good idea. Sara has suggested Saturday night, which would seem to work for everyone. Randy has made three great suggestions that I wanted to get a last minute reaction to: They are - The Russian Tea Time - Somewhere in China town - which is not to far away. - Somewhere in Greek town - which is also not to far away Let me know what you all think and we can come up with some names of places (if we need to) and make some tentative reservations. Best wishes, John P.S. It is supposed to be getting cold here and the weather people are forecasting snow for the weekend. Dress warmly. From CRudin at wscgate.wsc.edu Tue Jan 4 15:32:04 2000 From: CRudin at wscgate.wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 09:32:04 -0600 Subject: LSA & Dinner Message-ID: Russian Tea Time sounds great to me -- but Chinese or Greek would be fine too. Catherine From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Tue Jan 4 22:41:32 2000 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:41:32 -0600 Subject: LSA & Dinner Message-ID: > After having heard from many of you it seems that dinner would be a good > idea. Sara has suggested Saturday night, which would seem to work for > everyone. Randy has made three great suggestions that I wanted to get a > last minute reaction to: They are - The Russian Tea Time > - Somewhere in China town - which is not to far away. > - Somewhere in Greek town - which is also not to far away Sat. evening works for me (so does thurs. or fri. tho'). We need to work around the SSILA business meeting (I haven't checked to see when or even what day that is). It should be over by 7 anyhow. I was at a really excellent Chinese restaurant during CLS last Spring. Randy may recall the name of it. I think I could find it again. I'd recommend it, but any of the 3 would be fine with me. Bob From jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu Tue Jan 4 21:13:45 2000 From: jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu (John P. Boyle) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:13:45 -0600 Subject: LSA & Dinner In-Reply-To: <38725AFC.75CDFB3B@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: >> After having heard from many of you it seems that dinner would be a good >> idea. Sara has suggested Saturday night, which would seem to work for >> everyone. Randy has made three great suggestions that I wanted to get a >> last minute reaction to: They are - The Russian Tea Time >> - Somewhere in China town - which is not to far away. >> - Somewhere in Greek town - which is also not to far away > >Sat. evening works for me (so does thurs. or fri. tho'). We need to >work around the SSILA business meeting (I haven't checked to see when or >even what day that is). It should be over by 7 anyhow. I was at a >really excellent Chinese restaurant during CLS last Spring. Randy may >recall the name of it. I think I could find it again. I'd recommend >it, but any of the 3 would be fine with me. > >Bob This shouldn't be a problem. The SSILA business meeting is scheduled for Saturday at 11:00 AM and the meetings should be over around 5:00 PM. John From jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu Tue Jan 4 21:26:13 2000 From: jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu (John P. Boyle) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:26:13 -0600 Subject: LSA & Dinner In-Reply-To: <38725AFC.75CDFB3B@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: Just a follow up to that last e-mail. Joan Bresnan's Presidential address is scheduled for 5:00 - 6:00 PM which will be followed by a reception. I though we could aim for dinner around 8:00 PM on Saturday since I don't believe that there are any Saturday evening sessions. John From demallie at indiana.edu Wed Jan 5 16:05:40 2000 From: demallie at indiana.edu (Raymond DeMallie) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:05:40 -0500 Subject: LSA & Dinner In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John, Doug and I will plan on joining you for dinner. Best, Ray At 03:26 PM 1/4/00 -0600, you wrote: >Just a follow up to that last e-mail. Joan Bresnan's Presidential address >is scheduled for 5:00 - 6:00 PM which will be followed by a reception. I >though we could aim for dinner around 8:00 PM on Saturday since I don't >believe that there are any Saturday evening sessions. > >John > > From jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu Wed Jan 5 16:08:33 2000 From: jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu (John P. Boyle) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:08:33 -0600 Subject: LSA & Dinner In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000105110540.019d060c@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> Message-ID: Ray, Great, I was hoping to get to speak with both of you. This will be perfect. John >John, > >Doug and I will plan on joining you for dinner. > >Best, >Ray > >At 03:26 PM 1/4/00 -0600, you wrote: >>Just a follow up to that last e-mail. Joan Bresnan's Presidential address >>is scheduled for 5:00 - 6:00 PM which will be followed by a reception. I >>though we could aim for dinner around 8:00 PM on Saturday since I don't >>believe that there are any Saturday evening sessions. >> >>John >> >> From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Sun Jan 23 14:54:46 2000 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 08:54:46 -0600 Subject: "Lumbee" word list. Message-ID: A paper given by Walt Wolfram and Nancy Estes at LSA on the Lumbees prompted me to get this word list out and distribute it. Most of you won't be interested, but I know one or two of you are. The Lumbees are a group in North Carolina, near Lumberton, who claim Indian ancestry, but who have often been looked upon as Blacks by most white Carolinians. Wolfram and Estes showed that they speak a variety of English that is clearly distinct from both local Blacks and Whites. They've been seeking federal recognition as a tribe for a long time. If you're interested, there's a good book about them by Karen Blu. Well over a decade ago, after I had given a couple of SSILA papers on southeastern Siouan languages, someone (completely anonymously) mailed me a Lumbee newsletter. I'm afraid I didn't keep most of it, which included a photograph of a very White-looking "chief" in horn rimmed glasses and a full plains war bonnet. But in the newsletter was a list of 55 purportedly Lumbee words. Most of them looked like nothing I'd ever seen, but a few looked very much like Catawba words. The Catawba words suggest that the vowels have European values, i.e., roughly IPA, but caution is in order since the Catawba words could have been copied from Frank Speck's published texts, while other words could be using English spelling conventions. Only the letters of the Roman alphabet are used in the list, so it is easy to reproduce for you here. My own commentary is [in square brackets]. Bob Acorn Ogo Anisgina Evil Spirits [all other words are in English alphebetical order] Blackberries Otasha Blueberries Getda Black River Lumbee [here clearly has its English value] Big Tree Yattkin [c.f. the Yadkin tribe, of unknown affiliation] Blackman Negsi [clear English influence here] Bear Niagi Cherry Gowa Christ Sega Corn Pagatour Creator Hodia Devil Segoe [c.f. Christ, above] Christian Gaitur Food Gowa [c.f. Cherry, above] Fire Ode [there are a number of Siouan fire/burn forms with de sequences.] Great Spirit or God Mantoac [looks superficially more Algonquian] Grapes Wisa Greetings Bezon [Some SE languages have bizzare variants of "bonjour". this could be another one.] Grandfather Wuniish Grandmother Shiyoosh Great Corn Ceremony Waanowa Great Feather Dance Ostowa Great Eagle Ceremony Shago Grand Head Chief Gaa-Yu Huckleberries Oya [How are these different from blueberries?] Heaven Tainade Lord Rhoya Whiteman Honio Jesus Jeru Male Hadji Maple Wata Moon Soika Nut Onio May Yai Peach Odjya Pear Ogwa Plum Gae Prophet Proa Red Raspberries Dagwa Reptile Dunuwa River Iswa [This is clearly Catawban, though the final V should be nasalized.] Root Oka Sioux Wasawi [no comment] Strawberries Odjist Snake Usugi Sugar Owan Sun Mus Warrior Society Unlum To Fall Tukar Tree Geit Tobacco Openna [Looks Siouan/Catawban, but there are "ope" words referring to tobacco all the way to the west coast, I think.] War Chief Dioni Women Yeow Warrior Waaow ---------------------------------------- That's it. Comments invited. Bob From are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu Mon Jan 24 03:42:55 2000 From: are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu (Ardis R Eschenberg) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:42:55 -0500 Subject: "Lumbee" word list. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Blueberries and huckleberries are related but different. Blueberry is genus vaccinium and huckleberries are genus gaylussacia. More relevantly the latter are smaller and seedier and purpler I think. Not linguistically relevant but important for pie. -Ardis From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Mon Jan 24 14:31:52 2000 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:31:52 -0600 Subject: "Lumbee" word list. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Blueberries and huckleberries are related but different. Blueberry is > genus vaccinium and huckleberries are genus gaylussacia. More > relevantly the latter are smaller and seedier and purpler I think. > Not linguistically relevant but important for pie. Taste exactly the same to me. Down South the consensus used to be that blueberries were the domesticated variety and huckleberries were the wild variety. I wonder how far back the split goes? By the way, the Lumbee word list is accompanied by a "New Lumbee Alphabet". At first I thought it might have been ripped off from the Cherokee syllabary, but on closer inspection, it is clear that someone just took the 26 letters of the Roman alphabet and modified each one with an extra stroke or two. Very amateurish. What I'm hoping is that when I find Walt Wolfram's and Natalie Estes' email addresses and copy them with the list, that they'll check it with a few of their informants to see if it really is thought of as Lumbee vocabulary, or if it was made up by some one as a stunt. Bob From BARudes at aol.com Mon Jan 24 15:48:32 2000 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:48:32 EST Subject: "Lumbee" word list. Message-ID: Just a quick look at the "Lumbee" word list that Bob kindly sent around reveals much of the vocabulary is Iroquoian, specifically Seneca, with some Cherokee, Mohawk, Catawba and other languages thrown in as well. I have put my comments between curly brackets to distinguish them from Bob's. Seneca data are from Wallace L. Chafe, 1967, Seneca Morphology and Dictionary. Washington, DC: Smithsonian. I have used for the ae digraph of Seneca. Cherokee data are from Durbin Feeling and William Pulte, 1975, Cherokee-English Dictionary, Tahlequah, Okla: Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma. The Mohawk form is from Gunther Michelson, 1973, A Thousand Words of Mohawk, Mercury Series No. 5, Ottawa: National Museum of Man, National Museums of Canada. I have not analyzed every word, but clearly who ever composed the list worked from an old Seneca source. The word for 'Great Feather Dance', for example, is particularly revealing since it comes from Proto-Northern Iroquoian *yoct'ohra? 'feather' which, by regular sound changes of Seneca, becomes osto:wae? 'headdress'. In any event, either a Seneca war party took up residence in the Carolinas and became the Lumbee or, as appears more likely, the list is a late fabrication. Acorn Ogo {Seneca oko:wae? 'red oak, acorn' (Chafe 1967, #1032)} Anisgina Evil Spirits [all other words are in English alphebetical order] {Cherokee anisgina 'demons, devils} Blackberries Otasha Blueberries Getda Black River Lumbee [here clearly has its English value] Big Tree Yattkin [c.f. the Yadkin tribe, of unknown affiliation] Blackman Negsi [clear English influence here] Bear Niagi {Seneca (o)nyahkwai? 'bear' (Chafe 1967, #1327)} Cherry Gowa {Cherokee khuwa 'mulberries'} Christ Sega Corn Pagatour Creator Hodia Devil Segoe [c.f. Christ, above] Christian Gaitur Food Gowa [c.f. Cherry, above] Fire Ode [there are a number of Siouan fire/burn forms with de sequences.] {Catawba de 'blaze'--(Siebert's notes)} Great Spirit or God Mantoac [looks superficially more Algonquian] {looks exactly an Eastern Algonquian form of Manitou /mantu:wak/ with the animate plural ending -ac; it could be Munsee, Unami, Massachussett, Abenaki, etc.} Grapes Wisa Greetings Bezon [Some SE languages have bizzare variants of "bonjour". this could be another one.] Grandfather Wuniish Grandmother Shiyoosh Great Corn Ceremony Waanowa Great Feather Dance Ostowa {Seneca osto:wae? 'headdress', ost'owae?ko:wa:h '(Great) Feather Dance' (Chafe 1967, #1617) Great Eagle Ceremony Shago Grand Head Chief Gaa-Yu {? Cherokee ogvwiyuhi 'chief'} Huckleberries Oya [How are these different from blueberries?] {Seneca o:ya? 'fruit, berry' (Chafe 1967, #298)} Heaven Tainade Lord Rhoya {Mohawk roy'e:ner 'lord, Christ'} Whiteman Honio Jesus Jeru Male Hadji {Seneca haji:no~h 'he's male' (Chafe 1967, #859} Maple Wata (Seneca w'ahta? 'sugar, hard maple' (Chafe 1967, #52} Moon Soika Nut Onio May Yai Peach Odjya Pear Ogwa {Seneca okwa:a? 'orange' (Chafe 1967, #1063) Plum Gae Prophet Proa Red Raspberries Dagwa {Seneca takw'a?tae:ne~? 'red raspberry' (Chafe 1967, #1608)} Reptile Dunuwa River Iswa [This is clearly Catawban, though the final V should be nasalized.] {Catawba 'i:suwa~? 'river'--Siebert notes} Root Oka (? Seneca okt'eae? 'root' (Chafe 1967, # 1060)} Sioux Wasawi [no comment] Strawberries Odjist (Seneca (o)jisto~t'a?shae? 'strawberry' (Chafe 1967, #868)} Snake Usugi Sugar Owan {Seneca owae:no~? 'sugar, maple sugar, candy' (Chafe 1967, #346) Sun Mus Warrior Society Unlum To Fall Tukar Tree Geit {Seneca kae:it 'tree' (Chafe 1967, #340)} Tobacco Openna [Looks Siouan/Catawban, but there are "ope" words referring to tobacco all the way to the west coast, I think.] War Chief Dioni Women Yeow (Seneca yeo~h 'she's a female' (Chafe 1967, #779)} Warrior Waaow ---------------------------------------- From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Tue Jan 25 20:02:23 2000 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:02:23 -0600 Subject: Lumbee. Message-ID: thanks to Blair Rudes for a really great job of sleuthing on that "Lumbee" word list. I don't suppose it will any longer be of interest to Siouanists, but the Iroquoian list might be interested in his findings. Since whoever came up with the list apparently didn't use Chafe's Seneca dictionary (the spellings are all different), I wonder if it would be possible to find the list that was actually used? Walt Wolfram and Natalie Estes might still be interested in further digging. Oh well ... another problem solved! Bob From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Wed Jan 26 06:37:57 2000 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (SHEA KATHLEEN DORETTE) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 00:37:57 -0600 Subject: Siouan Lang. Research In-Reply-To: <10989-388E2535-2259@storefull-142.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: Dear Keith Biddle: I'm curious to know how you happened to write to me about this subject, but I'll be happy to give what few leads I can give you. You should know that I am a linguistics graduate student studying the Ponca language and am not an anthropologist or historian. The Siouan language family falls roughly into three branches: the Mississipi Valley, the Missouri Valley, and the Southeastern. I think the general consensus among linguists and, I suppose, anthropologists is that the original "homeland" of the Siouan peoples was in the woodlands, somewhere around the Great Lakes. If you don't mind, I think I will send a copy of your inuiry, along with my reply, to the Siouan list, maintained at the University of Colorado, and throw this question open to the larger Siouanist community, who will probably be better able to answer it than I can. I'll also forward you some instructions on signing up for the Siouan list, in case you're interested. Good luck on your research! Best wishes, Kathy Shea On Tue, 25 Jan 2000, Igor wrote: > Hello there. My name is Keith Biddle and I am an undergrad from Missouri > who is trying, and failing, to put together a respectable work dealing > with the migrations and possible origins of the Siouan Language Family. > I am not having as much luck as I had anticipated. If yo u have the time > and/or inclination, please write me back. Thank you. > From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Wed Jan 26 11:34:36 2000 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (SHEA KATHLEEN DORETTE) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 05:34:36 -0600 Subject: Lumbee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In addition to the obvious Catawba words for "river" and "blaze (of fire)" (also in other Siouan languages) and aside from the widespread word for "tobacco," another word on the list that might be a good candidate for a Catawba source is tukar "to fall." Other words that more remotely resemble Catawba words are the words wata "maple," shiyoosh "grandmother," and getda "blueberries,": Catawba atae? "maple" (Swadesh), is^c^u "grandmother" (Swadesh), and wa'kta:? "huckleberry" (Swadesh). (I'm using ae for an open mid-front vowel, and the short accented a of wa'kta:? is actually a centralized a.) It's very interesting that most of the word list turns out to be Iroquoian, as Blair has so clearly shown, whether most of it was lifted from old Seneca dictionary or not! I know very little about Iroquoian, but I wonder if it would be worth noting that, of the 15 words on the list having to do with plant-derived food, 9 start with o. Three of the rest start with g, leaving only the words for "grapes," "corn," and "red raspberries." Is it possible that there is some kind of noun classification in effect here? (Admittedly, there are a couple of words starting with o on the list that don't refer to food, like the words for "tobacco", "fire," and "Great Feather Dance.") The only reason I'm commenting on this is that words in Catawba having to do with berries, nuts, tubers, and other plants used as food often start with wV-, indicating that there is a noun classification system functioning. Bob Rankin presented a paper on noun classification, comparing Catawba with Yuchi and Tutelo, as I remember, but not having his paper handy, I am getting all the details and much of the substance mixed up, I'm sure. Kathy Shea On Tue, 25 Jan 2000, Robert L. Rankin wrote: > > thanks to Blair Rudes for a really great job of sleuthing on that "Lumbee" > word list. I don't suppose it will any longer be of interest to > Siouanists, but the Iroquoian list might be interested in his findings. > Since whoever came up with the list apparently didn't use Chafe's Seneca > dictionary (the spellings are all different), I wonder if it would be > possible to find the list that was actually used? Walt Wolfram and > Natalie Estes might still be interested in further digging. > > Oh well ... another problem solved! > > Bob > From BARudes at aol.com Wed Jan 26 14:06:16 2000 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:06:16 EST Subject: Lumbee Message-ID: With respect to initial o- and ga- on words on the "Lumbee" list, to the extent the words are from Seneca or another Northern Iroquoian language, o- and ga- are the third person singular patient (o-) and third person singular agent (ka- [pronounced ga- ]) pronominal prefixes. In the Northern Iroquoian languages, all nouns with the except of a handful of disyllabic nouns and loan words MUST begin with one of these prefixes in the elicitation form. (In possessive forms, these prefixes are replaced by the appropriate pronominal prefixes marking the possessor.) There have been several attempts to show that these prefixes represent some sort of classifier system in these languages; none of the attempts has been convincing, in part because the distribution of the prefixes differs in weird ways among the Northern Iroquoian languages. In Seneca, Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga and Wyandot (where ka- appears as ya-) any noun may begin with either o- or ka-, and the languages disagree with one another as to the prefix on a particular noun (e.g., Onondaga kahw'ehno? 'island', Seneca o:w'e:no? 'island'; Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga ok'ehta? 'harness, burden strap', Cayuga, Seneca kak'ehta? 'harness, burden strap'). In Tuscarora, all nouns except those whose roots begin with the vowel /i/ and two disyllabic exceptions (k'atke~? 'blood' and k'a:ryu:?) take the prefix u- (same as o-). Stems beginning with /i/ take the ka- prefix (e.g., k'e~:ce~? 'fish' -- root -ice~- 'fish'). When a noun occurs compounded with an attributive verb, the prefix changes from u- to ka-, e.g., uk'e~hseh 'face', kakehs'i:yu: 'huge face'. The patterning in Tuscarora appears to be an innovation. Many, if not most nouns in the Northern Iroquoian languages are deverbal in origin and the initial o- and ka- appear to be relics of a stage when the modern nouns were predicate nominals. From BGalloway at sifc.edu Wed Jan 26 22:39:10 2000 From: BGalloway at sifc.edu (Galloway, Brent) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:39:10 -0600 Subject: "Lumbee" word list. Message-ID: Hi Ardis, When I was doing an ethnobotany of Upriver Halkomelem (a Salish language), I found that huckleberries and blueberries are both actually in the Vaccinium species, according to most botanists. I worked with Nancy Turner who is an ethnobotanist who has published a number of ethnobotanies and other works on native uses of plants. Since Upriver Halkomelem is spoken in a largely rain forest ecosystem but also on the edge of a drier area adjacent to interior Salish languages and since it also has many mountains where blueberries grow, as well as lowland areas, there are 6 named types of blueberries and two named types of huckleberries, as follows: (Halkomelem names quoted in their practical orthography) mo'lsem = tall marsh blueberry, bog blueberry, Vaccinium uliginosum lhewqi':m = short gray marsh bluebberry with berries in bunches, probably Canada blueberry, also known as velvet-leaf blueberry, Vaccinium myrtilloides le'th'ilets = tall gray mountain bluevberry, known to botanists as Alaska blueberry, Vaccinium alaskaense sXw'e'xixeq (X for orthography's underlined x, a uvular fricative) = small low-bush gray mountain blueberry, Vaccinium caespitosum-the sweetest of the mt. blueberries xwi'xwekw' = tall sweet mountain blueberry, oval-leafed blueberry, could also be Cascade blueberry, the former is Vaccinium ovalifolium, the latter Vaccinium deliciosum kwxwo':mels = shiny black mountain huckleberry/blueberry, Vaccini\eum membranaceum sqa':la, also skw'e'qwtses = red huckleberry, Vaccinium parvifolium. We got samples, pressed and mounted them, oc course ate those we didn't press, and the Sto':lo Nation containued to teach using the samples after I left in 1980. We decided that since the black variety were really not blue, and were called either black huckleberries or shiny black blueberries, and since the red huckleberries are never called blueberries, it was best to stick with the huckleberry names for those that were actually black or red and not blue at all, at least in teaching and in the ethnobotany put out in 1982. In that last source however we omitted the several letter abbreviations of botanists' names that are usually given at the end of each scientific name which shows who first called it by that name. There are apparently some botanists who do not agree that they all belong to the Vaccinium genus, but I think that is a minority opinion. At any rate, we thought quoting all the botanist name abbreviations just made the ethnobotany more obscure, since it was designed for teachers in a curriculum on Sto':lo culture and it made the scientific names less likely to be useful and maybe would have mae the whole book less used. Any since one can look up the scientific names in the botanical literature and find the botanist names and their obscure abbreviations, there was no need to quote them all. Now that I have moved to the prairies to teach at SIFC/U. of Regina, I find I really miss the great variety of berries from the rainforest/Fraser Valley of B.C. I haven't yet learned what blueberries, are bound around here, but not nearly as many types, I suspect and perhaps some new types. Hope this helps. Best Regards, Brent Galloway -----Original Message----- From: Ardis R Eschenberg [SMTP:are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu] Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2000 9:43 PM To: Siouan list Subject: Re: "Lumbee" word list. Blueberries and huckleberries are related but different. Blueberry is genus vaccinium and huckleberries are genus gaylussacia. More relevantly the latter are smaller and seedier and purpler I think. Not linguistically relevant but important for pie. -Ardis From jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu Tue Jan 4 03:58:53 2000 From: jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu (John P. Boyle) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 21:58:53 -0600 Subject: LSA & Dinner Message-ID: Dear all, After having heard from many of you it seems that dinner would be a good idea. Sara has suggested Saturday night, which would seem to work for everyone. Randy has made three great suggestions that I wanted to get a last minute reaction to: They are - The Russian Tea Time - Somewhere in China town - which is not to far away. - Somewhere in Greek town - which is also not to far away Let me know what you all think and we can come up with some names of places (if we need to) and make some tentative reservations. Best wishes, John P.S. It is supposed to be getting cold here and the weather people are forecasting snow for the weekend. Dress warmly. From CRudin at wscgate.wsc.edu Tue Jan 4 15:32:04 2000 From: CRudin at wscgate.wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 09:32:04 -0600 Subject: LSA & Dinner Message-ID: Russian Tea Time sounds great to me -- but Chinese or Greek would be fine too. Catherine From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Tue Jan 4 22:41:32 2000 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:41:32 -0600 Subject: LSA & Dinner Message-ID: > After having heard from many of you it seems that dinner would be a good > idea. Sara has suggested Saturday night, which would seem to work for > everyone. Randy has made three great suggestions that I wanted to get a > last minute reaction to: They are - The Russian Tea Time > - Somewhere in China town - which is not to far away. > - Somewhere in Greek town - which is also not to far away Sat. evening works for me (so does thurs. or fri. tho'). We need to work around the SSILA business meeting (I haven't checked to see when or even what day that is). It should be over by 7 anyhow. I was at a really excellent Chinese restaurant during CLS last Spring. Randy may recall the name of it. I think I could find it again. I'd recommend it, but any of the 3 would be fine with me. Bob From jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu Tue Jan 4 21:13:45 2000 From: jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu (John P. Boyle) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:13:45 -0600 Subject: LSA & Dinner In-Reply-To: <38725AFC.75CDFB3B@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: >> After having heard from many of you it seems that dinner would be a good >> idea. Sara has suggested Saturday night, which would seem to work for >> everyone. Randy has made three great suggestions that I wanted to get a >> last minute reaction to: They are - The Russian Tea Time >> - Somewhere in China town - which is not to far away. >> - Somewhere in Greek town - which is also not to far away > >Sat. evening works for me (so does thurs. or fri. tho'). We need to >work around the SSILA business meeting (I haven't checked to see when or >even what day that is). It should be over by 7 anyhow. I was at a >really excellent Chinese restaurant during CLS last Spring. Randy may >recall the name of it. I think I could find it again. I'd recommend >it, but any of the 3 would be fine with me. > >Bob This shouldn't be a problem. The SSILA business meeting is scheduled for Saturday at 11:00 AM and the meetings should be over around 5:00 PM. John From jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu Tue Jan 4 21:26:13 2000 From: jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu (John P. Boyle) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:26:13 -0600 Subject: LSA & Dinner In-Reply-To: <38725AFC.75CDFB3B@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: Just a follow up to that last e-mail. Joan Bresnan's Presidential address is scheduled for 5:00 - 6:00 PM which will be followed by a reception. I though we could aim for dinner around 8:00 PM on Saturday since I don't believe that there are any Saturday evening sessions. John From demallie at indiana.edu Wed Jan 5 16:05:40 2000 From: demallie at indiana.edu (Raymond DeMallie) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:05:40 -0500 Subject: LSA & Dinner In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John, Doug and I will plan on joining you for dinner. Best, Ray At 03:26 PM 1/4/00 -0600, you wrote: >Just a follow up to that last e-mail. Joan Bresnan's Presidential address >is scheduled for 5:00 - 6:00 PM which will be followed by a reception. I >though we could aim for dinner around 8:00 PM on Saturday since I don't >believe that there are any Saturday evening sessions. > >John > > From jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu Wed Jan 5 16:08:33 2000 From: jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu (John P. Boyle) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:08:33 -0600 Subject: LSA & Dinner In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000105110540.019d060c@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> Message-ID: Ray, Great, I was hoping to get to speak with both of you. This will be perfect. John >John, > >Doug and I will plan on joining you for dinner. > >Best, >Ray > >At 03:26 PM 1/4/00 -0600, you wrote: >>Just a follow up to that last e-mail. Joan Bresnan's Presidential address >>is scheduled for 5:00 - 6:00 PM which will be followed by a reception. I >>though we could aim for dinner around 8:00 PM on Saturday since I don't >>believe that there are any Saturday evening sessions. >> >>John >> >> From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Sun Jan 23 14:54:46 2000 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 08:54:46 -0600 Subject: "Lumbee" word list. Message-ID: A paper given by Walt Wolfram and Nancy Estes at LSA on the Lumbees prompted me to get this word list out and distribute it. Most of you won't be interested, but I know one or two of you are. The Lumbees are a group in North Carolina, near Lumberton, who claim Indian ancestry, but who have often been looked upon as Blacks by most white Carolinians. Wolfram and Estes showed that they speak a variety of English that is clearly distinct from both local Blacks and Whites. They've been seeking federal recognition as a tribe for a long time. If you're interested, there's a good book about them by Karen Blu. Well over a decade ago, after I had given a couple of SSILA papers on southeastern Siouan languages, someone (completely anonymously) mailed me a Lumbee newsletter. I'm afraid I didn't keep most of it, which included a photograph of a very White-looking "chief" in horn rimmed glasses and a full plains war bonnet. But in the newsletter was a list of 55 purportedly Lumbee words. Most of them looked like nothing I'd ever seen, but a few looked very much like Catawba words. The Catawba words suggest that the vowels have European values, i.e., roughly IPA, but caution is in order since the Catawba words could have been copied from Frank Speck's published texts, while other words could be using English spelling conventions. Only the letters of the Roman alphabet are used in the list, so it is easy to reproduce for you here. My own commentary is [in square brackets]. Bob Acorn Ogo Anisgina Evil Spirits [all other words are in English alphebetical order] Blackberries Otasha Blueberries Getda Black River Lumbee [here clearly has its English value] Big Tree Yattkin [c.f. the Yadkin tribe, of unknown affiliation] Blackman Negsi [clear English influence here] Bear Niagi Cherry Gowa Christ Sega Corn Pagatour Creator Hodia Devil Segoe [c.f. Christ, above] Christian Gaitur Food Gowa [c.f. Cherry, above] Fire Ode [there are a number of Siouan fire/burn forms with de sequences.] Great Spirit or God Mantoac [looks superficially more Algonquian] Grapes Wisa Greetings Bezon [Some SE languages have bizzare variants of "bonjour". this could be another one.] Grandfather Wuniish Grandmother Shiyoosh Great Corn Ceremony Waanowa Great Feather Dance Ostowa Great Eagle Ceremony Shago Grand Head Chief Gaa-Yu Huckleberries Oya [How are these different from blueberries?] Heaven Tainade Lord Rhoya Whiteman Honio Jesus Jeru Male Hadji Maple Wata Moon Soika Nut Onio May Yai Peach Odjya Pear Ogwa Plum Gae Prophet Proa Red Raspberries Dagwa Reptile Dunuwa River Iswa [This is clearly Catawban, though the final V should be nasalized.] Root Oka Sioux Wasawi [no comment] Strawberries Odjist Snake Usugi Sugar Owan Sun Mus Warrior Society Unlum To Fall Tukar Tree Geit Tobacco Openna [Looks Siouan/Catawban, but there are "ope" words referring to tobacco all the way to the west coast, I think.] War Chief Dioni Women Yeow Warrior Waaow ---------------------------------------- That's it. Comments invited. Bob From are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu Mon Jan 24 03:42:55 2000 From: are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu (Ardis R Eschenberg) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:42:55 -0500 Subject: "Lumbee" word list. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Blueberries and huckleberries are related but different. Blueberry is genus vaccinium and huckleberries are genus gaylussacia. More relevantly the latter are smaller and seedier and purpler I think. Not linguistically relevant but important for pie. -Ardis From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Mon Jan 24 14:31:52 2000 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:31:52 -0600 Subject: "Lumbee" word list. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Blueberries and huckleberries are related but different. Blueberry is > genus vaccinium and huckleberries are genus gaylussacia. More > relevantly the latter are smaller and seedier and purpler I think. > Not linguistically relevant but important for pie. Taste exactly the same to me. Down South the consensus used to be that blueberries were the domesticated variety and huckleberries were the wild variety. I wonder how far back the split goes? By the way, the Lumbee word list is accompanied by a "New Lumbee Alphabet". At first I thought it might have been ripped off from the Cherokee syllabary, but on closer inspection, it is clear that someone just took the 26 letters of the Roman alphabet and modified each one with an extra stroke or two. Very amateurish. What I'm hoping is that when I find Walt Wolfram's and Natalie Estes' email addresses and copy them with the list, that they'll check it with a few of their informants to see if it really is thought of as Lumbee vocabulary, or if it was made up by some one as a stunt. Bob From BARudes at aol.com Mon Jan 24 15:48:32 2000 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:48:32 EST Subject: "Lumbee" word list. Message-ID: Just a quick look at the "Lumbee" word list that Bob kindly sent around reveals much of the vocabulary is Iroquoian, specifically Seneca, with some Cherokee, Mohawk, Catawba and other languages thrown in as well. I have put my comments between curly brackets to distinguish them from Bob's. Seneca data are from Wallace L. Chafe, 1967, Seneca Morphology and Dictionary. Washington, DC: Smithsonian. I have used for the ae digraph of Seneca. Cherokee data are from Durbin Feeling and William Pulte, 1975, Cherokee-English Dictionary, Tahlequah, Okla: Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma. The Mohawk form is from Gunther Michelson, 1973, A Thousand Words of Mohawk, Mercury Series No. 5, Ottawa: National Museum of Man, National Museums of Canada. I have not analyzed every word, but clearly who ever composed the list worked from an old Seneca source. The word for 'Great Feather Dance', for example, is particularly revealing since it comes from Proto-Northern Iroquoian *yoct'ohra? 'feather' which, by regular sound changes of Seneca, becomes osto:wae? 'headdress'. In any event, either a Seneca war party took up residence in the Carolinas and became the Lumbee or, as appears more likely, the list is a late fabrication. Acorn Ogo {Seneca oko:wae? 'red oak, acorn' (Chafe 1967, #1032)} Anisgina Evil Spirits [all other words are in English alphebetical order] {Cherokee anisgina 'demons, devils} Blackberries Otasha Blueberries Getda Black River Lumbee [here clearly has its English value] Big Tree Yattkin [c.f. the Yadkin tribe, of unknown affiliation] Blackman Negsi [clear English influence here] Bear Niagi {Seneca (o)nyahkwai? 'bear' (Chafe 1967, #1327)} Cherry Gowa {Cherokee khuwa 'mulberries'} Christ Sega Corn Pagatour Creator Hodia Devil Segoe [c.f. Christ, above] Christian Gaitur Food Gowa [c.f. Cherry, above] Fire Ode [there are a number of Siouan fire/burn forms with de sequences.] {Catawba de 'blaze'--(Siebert's notes)} Great Spirit or God Mantoac [looks superficially more Algonquian] {looks exactly an Eastern Algonquian form of Manitou /mantu:wak/ with the animate plural ending -ac; it could be Munsee, Unami, Massachussett, Abenaki, etc.} Grapes Wisa Greetings Bezon [Some SE languages have bizzare variants of "bonjour". this could be another one.] Grandfather Wuniish Grandmother Shiyoosh Great Corn Ceremony Waanowa Great Feather Dance Ostowa {Seneca osto:wae? 'headdress', ost'owae?ko:wa:h '(Great) Feather Dance' (Chafe 1967, #1617) Great Eagle Ceremony Shago Grand Head Chief Gaa-Yu {? Cherokee ogvwiyuhi 'chief'} Huckleberries Oya [How are these different from blueberries?] {Seneca o:ya? 'fruit, berry' (Chafe 1967, #298)} Heaven Tainade Lord Rhoya {Mohawk roy'e:ner 'lord, Christ'} Whiteman Honio Jesus Jeru Male Hadji {Seneca haji:no~h 'he's male' (Chafe 1967, #859} Maple Wata (Seneca w'ahta? 'sugar, hard maple' (Chafe 1967, #52} Moon Soika Nut Onio May Yai Peach Odjya Pear Ogwa {Seneca okwa:a? 'orange' (Chafe 1967, #1063) Plum Gae Prophet Proa Red Raspberries Dagwa {Seneca takw'a?tae:ne~? 'red raspberry' (Chafe 1967, #1608)} Reptile Dunuwa River Iswa [This is clearly Catawban, though the final V should be nasalized.] {Catawba 'i:suwa~? 'river'--Siebert notes} Root Oka (? Seneca okt'eae? 'root' (Chafe 1967, # 1060)} Sioux Wasawi [no comment] Strawberries Odjist (Seneca (o)jisto~t'a?shae? 'strawberry' (Chafe 1967, #868)} Snake Usugi Sugar Owan {Seneca owae:no~? 'sugar, maple sugar, candy' (Chafe 1967, #346) Sun Mus Warrior Society Unlum To Fall Tukar Tree Geit {Seneca kae:it 'tree' (Chafe 1967, #340)} Tobacco Openna [Looks Siouan/Catawban, but there are "ope" words referring to tobacco all the way to the west coast, I think.] War Chief Dioni Women Yeow (Seneca yeo~h 'she's a female' (Chafe 1967, #779)} Warrior Waaow ---------------------------------------- From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Tue Jan 25 20:02:23 2000 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (Robert L. Rankin) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:02:23 -0600 Subject: Lumbee. Message-ID: thanks to Blair Rudes for a really great job of sleuthing on that "Lumbee" word list. I don't suppose it will any longer be of interest to Siouanists, but the Iroquoian list might be interested in his findings. Since whoever came up with the list apparently didn't use Chafe's Seneca dictionary (the spellings are all different), I wonder if it would be possible to find the list that was actually used? Walt Wolfram and Natalie Estes might still be interested in further digging. Oh well ... another problem solved! Bob From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Wed Jan 26 06:37:57 2000 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (SHEA KATHLEEN DORETTE) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 00:37:57 -0600 Subject: Siouan Lang. Research In-Reply-To: <10989-388E2535-2259@storefull-142.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: Dear Keith Biddle: I'm curious to know how you happened to write to me about this subject, but I'll be happy to give what few leads I can give you. You should know that I am a linguistics graduate student studying the Ponca language and am not an anthropologist or historian. The Siouan language family falls roughly into three branches: the Mississipi Valley, the Missouri Valley, and the Southeastern. I think the general consensus among linguists and, I suppose, anthropologists is that the original "homeland" of the Siouan peoples was in the woodlands, somewhere around the Great Lakes. If you don't mind, I think I will send a copy of your inuiry, along with my reply, to the Siouan list, maintained at the University of Colorado, and throw this question open to the larger Siouanist community, who will probably be better able to answer it than I can. I'll also forward you some instructions on signing up for the Siouan list, in case you're interested. Good luck on your research! Best wishes, Kathy Shea On Tue, 25 Jan 2000, Igor wrote: > Hello there. My name is Keith Biddle and I am an undergrad from Missouri > who is trying, and failing, to put together a respectable work dealing > with the migrations and possible origins of the Siouan Language Family. > I am not having as much luck as I had anticipated. If yo u have the time > and/or inclination, please write me back. Thank you. > From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Wed Jan 26 11:34:36 2000 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (SHEA KATHLEEN DORETTE) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 05:34:36 -0600 Subject: Lumbee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In addition to the obvious Catawba words for "river" and "blaze (of fire)" (also in other Siouan languages) and aside from the widespread word for "tobacco," another word on the list that might be a good candidate for a Catawba source is tukar "to fall." Other words that more remotely resemble Catawba words are the words wata "maple," shiyoosh "grandmother," and getda "blueberries,": Catawba atae? "maple" (Swadesh), is^c^u "grandmother" (Swadesh), and wa'kta:? "huckleberry" (Swadesh). (I'm using ae for an open mid-front vowel, and the short accented a of wa'kta:? is actually a centralized a.) It's very interesting that most of the word list turns out to be Iroquoian, as Blair has so clearly shown, whether most of it was lifted from old Seneca dictionary or not! I know very little about Iroquoian, but I wonder if it would be worth noting that, of the 15 words on the list having to do with plant-derived food, 9 start with o. Three of the rest start with g, leaving only the words for "grapes," "corn," and "red raspberries." Is it possible that there is some kind of noun classification in effect here? (Admittedly, there are a couple of words starting with o on the list that don't refer to food, like the words for "tobacco", "fire," and "Great Feather Dance.") The only reason I'm commenting on this is that words in Catawba having to do with berries, nuts, tubers, and other plants used as food often start with wV-, indicating that there is a noun classification system functioning. Bob Rankin presented a paper on noun classification, comparing Catawba with Yuchi and Tutelo, as I remember, but not having his paper handy, I am getting all the details and much of the substance mixed up, I'm sure. Kathy Shea On Tue, 25 Jan 2000, Robert L. Rankin wrote: > > thanks to Blair Rudes for a really great job of sleuthing on that "Lumbee" > word list. I don't suppose it will any longer be of interest to > Siouanists, but the Iroquoian list might be interested in his findings. > Since whoever came up with the list apparently didn't use Chafe's Seneca > dictionary (the spellings are all different), I wonder if it would be > possible to find the list that was actually used? Walt Wolfram and > Natalie Estes might still be interested in further digging. > > Oh well ... another problem solved! > > Bob > From BARudes at aol.com Wed Jan 26 14:06:16 2000 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:06:16 EST Subject: Lumbee Message-ID: With respect to initial o- and ga- on words on the "Lumbee" list, to the extent the words are from Seneca or another Northern Iroquoian language, o- and ga- are the third person singular patient (o-) and third person singular agent (ka- [pronounced ga- ]) pronominal prefixes. In the Northern Iroquoian languages, all nouns with the except of a handful of disyllabic nouns and loan words MUST begin with one of these prefixes in the elicitation form. (In possessive forms, these prefixes are replaced by the appropriate pronominal prefixes marking the possessor.) There have been several attempts to show that these prefixes represent some sort of classifier system in these languages; none of the attempts has been convincing, in part because the distribution of the prefixes differs in weird ways among the Northern Iroquoian languages. In Seneca, Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga and Wyandot (where ka- appears as ya-) any noun may begin with either o- or ka-, and the languages disagree with one another as to the prefix on a particular noun (e.g., Onondaga kahw'ehno? 'island', Seneca o:w'e:no? 'island'; Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga ok'ehta? 'harness, burden strap', Cayuga, Seneca kak'ehta? 'harness, burden strap'). In Tuscarora, all nouns except those whose roots begin with the vowel /i/ and two disyllabic exceptions (k'atke~? 'blood' and k'a:ryu:?) take the prefix u- (same as o-). Stems beginning with /i/ take the ka- prefix (e.g., k'e~:ce~? 'fish' -- root -ice~- 'fish'). When a noun occurs compounded with an attributive verb, the prefix changes from u- to ka-, e.g., uk'e~hseh 'face', kakehs'i:yu: 'huge face'. The patterning in Tuscarora appears to be an innovation. Many, if not most nouns in the Northern Iroquoian languages are deverbal in origin and the initial o- and ka- appear to be relics of a stage when the modern nouns were predicate nominals. From BGalloway at sifc.edu Wed Jan 26 22:39:10 2000 From: BGalloway at sifc.edu (Galloway, Brent) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:39:10 -0600 Subject: "Lumbee" word list. Message-ID: Hi Ardis, When I was doing an ethnobotany of Upriver Halkomelem (a Salish language), I found that huckleberries and blueberries are both actually in the Vaccinium species, according to most botanists. I worked with Nancy Turner who is an ethnobotanist who has published a number of ethnobotanies and other works on native uses of plants. Since Upriver Halkomelem is spoken in a largely rain forest ecosystem but also on the edge of a drier area adjacent to interior Salish languages and since it also has many mountains where blueberries grow, as well as lowland areas, there are 6 named types of blueberries and two named types of huckleberries, as follows: (Halkomelem names quoted in their practical orthography) mo'lsem = tall marsh blueberry, bog blueberry, Vaccinium uliginosum lhewqi':m = short gray marsh bluebberry with berries in bunches, probably Canada blueberry, also known as velvet-leaf blueberry, Vaccinium myrtilloides le'th'ilets = tall gray mountain bluevberry, known to botanists as Alaska blueberry, Vaccinium alaskaense sXw'e'xixeq (X for orthography's underlined x, a uvular fricative) = small low-bush gray mountain blueberry, Vaccinium caespitosum-the sweetest of the mt. blueberries xwi'xwekw' = tall sweet mountain blueberry, oval-leafed blueberry, could also be Cascade blueberry, the former is Vaccinium ovalifolium, the latter Vaccinium deliciosum kwxwo':mels = shiny black mountain huckleberry/blueberry, Vaccini\eum membranaceum sqa':la, also skw'e'qwtses = red huckleberry, Vaccinium parvifolium. We got samples, pressed and mounted them, oc course ate those we didn't press, and the Sto':lo Nation containued to teach using the samples after I left in 1980. We decided that since the black variety were really not blue, and were called either black huckleberries or shiny black blueberries, and since the red huckleberries are never called blueberries, it was best to stick with the huckleberry names for those that were actually black or red and not blue at all, at least in teaching and in the ethnobotany put out in 1982. In that last source however we omitted the several letter abbreviations of botanists' names that are usually given at the end of each scientific name which shows who first called it by that name. There are apparently some botanists who do not agree that they all belong to the Vaccinium genus, but I think that is a minority opinion. At any rate, we thought quoting all the botanist name abbreviations just made the ethnobotany more obscure, since it was designed for teachers in a curriculum on Sto':lo culture and it made the scientific names less likely to be useful and maybe would have mae the whole book less used. Any since one can look up the scientific names in the botanical literature and find the botanist names and their obscure abbreviations, there was no need to quote them all. Now that I have moved to the prairies to teach at SIFC/U. of Regina, I find I really miss the great variety of berries from the rainforest/Fraser Valley of B.C. I haven't yet learned what blueberries, are bound around here, but not nearly as many types, I suspect and perhaps some new types. Hope this helps. Best Regards, Brent Galloway -----Original Message----- From: Ardis R Eschenberg [SMTP:are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu] Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2000 9:43 PM To: Siouan list Subject: Re: "Lumbee" word list. Blueberries and huckleberries are related but different. Blueberry is genus vaccinium and huckleberries are genus gaylussacia. More relevantly the latter are smaller and seedier and purpler I think. Not linguistically relevant but important for pie. -Ardis