From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue May 2 07:04:48 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 01:04:48 -0600 Subject: More on Dhegiha Evidential Message-ID: The following is material from Ardis Eschenberg, posted by permission: I basically agree with John (though I likely have less evidence!), but I do get the with declarative I think. Dorsey 58.8 wa'uzhiNga dhittuspa haNbthiNge aNkki'ai dhaNshti waNgishe-xti we'iN old lady grandson beans we hoed heretofore all-very carry for us for ourselves agii the he, a-bi-ama. was coming back DEC said-Prox-QUO 'Your grandson was coming back hither carrying away from us all the beans we hoed for ourselves.'they said. I think there are other examples, but I can't find them now. I'm pretty sure the above is the and not tta due to context alone (the granson was already there and hidden). I have to think more about the exact parameters of when it is used. John's explanation seemed pretty good to me. Also, it occurs in the right place for an evidential type clitic. -Ardis From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon May 8 20:18:57 2000 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 14:18:57 -0600 Subject: Conference update Message-ID: Dear Siouanists, Please remember to send me a paper title by Friday of this week. There will be a $15.00 registration fee for the conference. If this is a hardship for anyone you know, please discuss it with me. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado Campus Box 295 Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From munro at ucla.edu Sat May 13 14:42:14 2000 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 07:42:14 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: Edison Movie] Message-ID: Maybe you guys have all seen this. One of my students brought it to my attention. Kind of dark, but still interesting! Pam -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: macbride at ucla.edu Subject: Edison Movie Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 13:10:09 +0000 Size: 2063 URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue May 16 18:57:32 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:57:32 -0600 Subject: Query: Possessor Raising Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:01:58 -0600 From: "R. Rankin" To: john.koontz at colorado.edu Subject: For Siouan list. John, this is for the list. could you post it for me? thanks. Bob A question has arisen here in Australia where I am currently about "possessor raising" in Siouan. One of the Quapaws who had not used her language in a long time gave me a sentence "shoNke aN-t?e" for 'my dog died' or possibly 'my dog died on me'. Note that possession is indicated by the patient pronominal prefix, aN- rather than with the alienable possessive "witta" 'my'. The learned typologists here tell me that they shouldn't be able to get this kind of possessor raising if the possessed object is animate (like 'dog'). How does this work out in the languages you know? Can you get possessor raising with animate objects or is it confined strictly to inanimates? Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue May 16 19:06:49 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 13:06:49 -0600 Subject: Query: Possessor Raising Message-ID: The construction I recall for OP is git?e, e.g., (?) s^i'nudaN iNt?e. 'my dog has died'. This has an unusual minor pattern argument structure. It's a dative object version of the dhiNge structure: N[pat2] pro[pat1]-verb, e.g., a theme without any verbal concord (but third person, so ...) plus a marked patient pronominal inflection (experiencer or whatever). I wonder if Quapaw could have shifted to the non-dative version from the dative one? I don't recall this verb with 'dog', but it definitely occurs with kinterms. From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Wed May 17 18:23:10 2000 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:23:10 -0600 Subject: Siouan/Caddoan Conference program Message-ID: Friday, June 2 9:00 Registration 9:30 Opening Prayer: Dru Pickard, Elder Opening Remarks: Gary McAdams, President Virgil Swift, Treasurer and Historical Preservation Officer 10:00 T.C. Grimm (Kansas). Another look at Proto-Siouan *r and *y. 10:30 Coffee break. 11:00 Regina Pustet (Univ. of Munich, Germany). Lakota Postpositions. 11:30 Bruce Ingham, SOAS (London). An investigation of the occurrence of the emphatic suffixes - hca, -hce and -hci in Lakhota. 12:00 Lunch break. 2:00 Linda Cumberland (Indiana University). The stop phonemes of Assiniboine: Empirical evidence from spectrographic analysis. 2:30 Catherine Rudin (Wayne State, NE). Insights from an Omaha Linguistics Class. 3:00 Coffee break. 3:30 - 5:00 OPEN DISCUSSION WITH ANADARKO AREA TRIBES ON LANGUAGE ISSUES 6:30 Dinner and Handgame hosted by Wichita Language Class Saturday June 3 9:00 John Koontz (Colorado). Evidentials and Consequentials in Omaha-Ponca. 9:30 Ardis R Eschenberg (SUNY Buffalo). Referential Distance and Animate Articles in Omaha. 10:00 Business meeting. 10:30 Coffee break. 11:00 John P. Boyle (Univ. of Chicago). Causative constructions and valency changing morphology in Hidatsa. . 11:30 Nicole Lea Evans (Indiana U.). Phrasal Markers and Pitch Accent in Pawnee. 12:00 David Rood (Univ. of Colorado) Speaking polysynthetically. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado Campus Box 295 Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Wed May 17 19:40:11 2000 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 13:40:11 -0600 Subject: A little more about the conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just spoke again with Gary McAdams, Wichita tribal president. He would like me to tell you that the program, a map of how to get to the tribal complex, and a registration form are or soon will be available on the Wichita tribal web site, www.wichita.nsn.us. Registration ($15) can take place at the conference on Friday morning. He has also invited anyone who is in town Thursday evening to come to the tribal complex around 7:00 for a reception. Thursday is the regular meeting of a group studying and working to preserve traditional Wichita songs. Maps to the tribal complex should be available in the motel. If you still need information on housing, let me know. The motel is still holding rooms for us, and will do so until 10 days before the conference, but you must tell them that you're with the conference when you call -- otherwise they're sold out for that weekend. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado Campus Box 295 Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 17 May 2000, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > > Here is the (hopefully final) program for the Siouan/Caddoan conference. > Write back to me if you need further information. > DAvid > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > Campus Box 295 > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > > Friday, June 2 > > 9:00 Registration > > 9:30 Opening Prayer: Dru Pickard, Elder > Opening Remarks: > Gary McAdams, President > Virgil Swift, Treasurer and > Historical Preservation Officer > > 10:00 T.C. Grimm (Kansas). > Another look at Proto-Siouan > *r and *y. > 10:30 Coffee break. > > 11:00 Regina Pustet (Univ. of > Munich, Germany). > Lakota Postpositions. > > 11:30 Bruce Ingham, SOAS (London). > An investigation of the > occurrence of the emphatic > suffixes - hca, -hce and -hci in > Lakhota. > > 12:00 Lunch break. > > 2:00 Linda Cumberland (Indiana > University). The stop > phonemes of Assiniboine: > Empirical evidence from > spectrographic analysis. > > 2:30 Catherine Rudin (Wayne State, > NE). Insights from an Omaha > Linguistics Class. > 3:00 Coffee break. > > 3:30 - 5:00 OPEN DISCUSSION > WITH ANADARKO AREA TRIBES > ON LANGUAGE ISSUES > > 6:30 Dinner and Handgame hosted by > Wichita Language Class > > Saturday June 3 > > 9:00 John Koontz (Colorado). > Evidentials and Consequentials > in Omaha-Ponca. > > 9:30 Ardis R Eschenberg (SUNY > Buffalo). Referential Distance > and Animate Articles in Omaha. > > 10:00 Business meeting. > > 10:30 Coffee break. > > 11:00 John P. Boyle (Univ. of > Chicago). Causative > constructions and valency > changing morphology in > Hidatsa. . > > 11:30 Nicole Lea Evans (Indiana U.). > Phrasal Markers and Pitch > Accent in Pawnee. > > 12:00 David Rood (Univ. of Colorado) > Speaking polysynthetically. > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > Campus Box 295 > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > > From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Thu May 18 10:14:51 2000 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (SHEA KATHLEEN DORETTE) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 05:14:51 -0500 Subject: Query: Possessor Raising In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In answer to Bob's query, I asked Parrish Williams (a native speaker of Ponca) today for a translation for 'My dog died' in Ponca and got "s^inuda witta t?e." When I asked him for something like 'The/my dog died on me,' I got "s^inuda (witta) iN-t?e." When I asked him outright if one could say, "s^inuda aN-t?e," reading him the corresponding Quapaw sentence Bob had recorded, or even "s^inuda witta aN-t?e," I got a definite no from him. This confirms John's form for Omaha-Ponca. By the way, I don't know if this is newsworthy for the Siouan list, but Rolf Clements, a new subscriber to the list and a member, as am I, of the Ponca Language Arts Council, Ponca Nation of Oklahoma, which is concerned with developing a curriculum for the Frontier High School Ponca language class taught by Henry Lieb (also a fluent, native speaker of Ponca), just made a wonderful flier to be posted announcing the dinner I'm sponsoring (on behalf of the Ponca Language Arts Council) for the Ponca elders, Ponca speakers, and other interested people this Friday at noon at the Methodist Church in White Eagle. (Commissioner of Indian Affairs for the State of Oklahoma Barbara Warner, a Ponca, is our invited speaker and is coming to lead a discussion about Ponca clans.) Anyway, the flier is in English, captioned with one Ponca sentence written in the alphabet that PLAC recently developed and that has been newly endorsed in a resolution by the Ponca Business Council as the tribe's primary alphabet (with accent marks omitted in e-mail and with a capital N standing for a raised n, indicating that the preceding vowel is nasal, and a capital H standing for a raised h, indicating that the preceding stop is aspirated): ANba gatHedi haNga aNguhaN ta aNgatHaN PaNka ie ukikHunethe aNgatHaN! 'The Ponca Language Arts Council is going to cook on this day!' I think that to be able to extend the use of Ponca in this way, through a written public announcement, is pretty exciting, since it reflects the culmination of a yearlong process. I've been wanting to sponsor a dinner for the elders for a long time, just because I don't hear very much Ponca being spoken around here. I'm hoping that people will show up and will speak a lot of Ponca, especially since I got enough food to feed an army! I hope I'm not gushing too much or sounding as if I'm boasting or being anything but proud of all the people who have contributed to this effort (core PLAC members Parrish Williams, Henry Lieb, Lucy Cries For Ribs, the late Josetta Rush, Bertha LeRoy, Dwight Buffalo Head, Carol Le Clair, Alice Anderton, Phyllis Rush, Rolf Clements, and myself). Any of you out there who live near Ponca City are invited! Kathy Shea On Tue, 16 May 2000, Koontz John E wrote: > The construction I recall for OP is git?e, e.g., (?) s^i'nudaN iNt?e. 'my > dog has died'. This has an unusual minor pattern argument structure. > It's a dative object version of the dhiNge structure: N[pat2] > pro[pat1]-verb, e.g., a theme without any verbal concord (but third > person, so ...) plus a marked patient pronominal inflection (experiencer > or whatever). I wonder if Quapaw could have shifted to the non-dative > version from the dative one? > > I don't recall this verb with 'dog', but it definitely occurs with kinterms. > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu May 18 14:32:58 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 08:32:58 -0600 Subject: Query: Possessor Raising In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2000, SHEA KATHLEEN DORETTE wrote: > In answer to Bob's query, I asked Parrish Williams (a native speaker of > Ponca) today for a translation for 'My dog died' in Ponca and got "s^inuda > witta t?e." When I asked him for something like 'The/my dog died on me,' > I got "s^inuda (witta) iN-t?e." In a side letter, Bob reminded me that the Osage pattern for the dative is aN + gi => aN', not iN' (as in Omaha-Ponca). So this may well be the correct form for the dative in Quapaw (and would be in Osage). Neither of us has tried to look for evidence on the inflection of the dative in Quapaw yet. Is there a similar construction in Dakotan? From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu May 18 14:36:30 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 08:36:30 -0600 Subject: For Siouan list. (fwd) Message-ID: I think I can just post this, though I interpreted the "For Siouan List" as applying to the original, and not this follow up. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 08:05:15 -0600 From: "R. Rankin" To: john.koontz at colorado.edu Subject: Re: For Siouan list. > ...the construction I recall > for OP is git?e, e.g., s^i'nudaN iNt?e. ... You may remember that in Carolyn Quintero's Osage the aN+ki- construction collapsed to aN- (I think) rather than iN-, as in OP. I think Kaw has the same, so maybe that's what happened in Quapaw. ... Bob Note that neither of us is claiming that we know or recall the Quapaw dative paradigm, though I believe Bob is correct in regard to Osage, and Kaw is pretty close to Osage in many respects. JEK From FurbeeL at missouri.edu Thu May 18 20:42:05 2000 From: FurbeeL at missouri.edu (Louanna Furbee) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 15:42:05 -0500 Subject: Siouan/Caddoan Conference Housing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave, Just made my reservation for the S/C conf. Arriving June 1, probably pretty late in the day. Louanna From r.rankin at latrobe.edu.au Thu May 18 22:46:56 2000 From: r.rankin at latrobe.edu.au (R. Rankin) Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 08:46:56 +1000 Subject: Query: Possessor Raising Message-ID: > In answer to Bob's query, I asked Parrish Williams (a native speaker of > Ponca) today for a translation for 'My dog died' in Ponca and got "s^inuda > witta t?e." When I asked him for something like 'The/my dog died on me,' > I got "s^inuda (witta) iN-t?e." When I asked him outright if one could > say, "s^inuda aN-t?e," reading him the corresponding Quapaw sentence Bob > had recorded, or even "s^inuda witta aN-t?e," I got a definite no from > him. This confirms John's form for Omaha-Ponca. The question in Omaha and Ponca would be whether you could get "Shinuda iNt?e" by itself. aN+ki (dative/benefactive) collapses to iN- in Ponca but aN- in Quapaw. There's a "ki" hidden in there. You report Shinuda (witta) iNt?e. does that mean the witta is optional? That's my basic question. Bob From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Fri May 19 05:51:59 2000 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (SHEA KATHLEEN DORETTE) Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:51:59 -0500 Subject: Query: Possessor Raising In-Reply-To: <392472E0.405496A6@latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: Yes, the witta is optional, so that you can get "s^inuda iN-t?e" in Ponca. Kathy Shea On Fri, 19 May 2000, R. Rankin wrote: > > In answer to Bob's query, I asked Parrish Williams (a native speaker of > > Ponca) today for a translation for 'My dog died' in Ponca and got "s^inuda > > witta t?e." When I asked him for something like 'The/my dog died on me,' > > I got "s^inuda (witta) iN-t?e." When I asked him outright if one could > > say, "s^inuda aN-t?e," reading him the corresponding Quapaw sentence Bob > > had recorded, or even "s^inuda witta aN-t?e," I got a definite no from > > him. This confirms John's form for Omaha-Ponca. > > The question in Omaha and Ponca would be whether you could get "Shinuda iNt?e" by > itself. aN+ki (dative/benefactive) collapses to iN- in Ponca but aN- in Quapaw. > There's a "ki" hidden in there. You report Shinuda (witta) iNt?e. does that mean > the witta is optional? That's my basic question. > > Bob > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 19 06:27:27 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:27:27 -0600 Subject: Query: Possessor Raising In-Reply-To: <392472E0.405496A6@latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: Bob asks: > The question in Omaha and Ponca would be whether you could > get "Shinuda iNt?e" by itself. aN+ki (dative/benefactive) collapses > to iN- in Ponca but aN- in Quapaw. There's a "ki" hidden in there. > You report Shinuda (witta) iNt?e. Does that mean the witta is > optional? That's my basic question. Examples from Dorsey 1890. Basically, it looks to me as though an animate inalienable possessum generally gets the dative construction with all persons of possessors, though some non-dative examples occur in at least embedded contexts. The construction is also used with partitives, e.g., 'some/many of us died' or 'some/many of you died', but non partitive constructions occur, too, perhaps more frequently. Sometimes the posessum seems to be marked as subject. S^iN'gaz^iNga git?e' ugdha'=bi=ama. Child his was dead he told of his, they say. jod 1890:347.10 Inalienable possession. Third person. Ni'kkas^iNga ama iN't?a=i People the have died to me jod 1890:495.8 Presumably 'people' refers to friends, kin, associates, so inalienable possession or at least initmate association. First person. Possessum marked as subject with article. S^iN'gaz^iNga aNttaN'=i ede, we't?a=i ha. Child we had him but, he died to us A child which we had (?) jod 1890:347.10-11 Inalienable possession. Inclusive person. Di'ghe=s^te wakhe'ga a'higi wea't?a=i UmaN'haN ama. Small-pox too sick many died to us Omahas the. jod 1890:399.8 "Many of our/us Omahas had died of the smallpox." Partitive. Inclusive person. Dative formation. Possessor marked as subject? Or is it the possessum? Noun subject with inclusive agreement. N.B.: Case before has wa-(gi)-; this, wa-(gi)-a-. Is this just personal variation, or something else? GaN' ni'kkas^iNga s^e'nuz^iNga wahe'h=az^i=xti bahi'=xti aNt?a'=i ha. And person young man very stout-hearted picked we have died. jod 1890:502.2 Partitive. Inclusive peson. Non-dative formation. Compare to (1890:399.8) (smallpox example). N.B.: 'Very stout-hearted' is literally 'very not trembling'. Ni'as^iNga aNt?a'=i ha. People we have died jod 1890:687.3-4 Partitive. Inclusive person. Non-dative formation. A'=na s^aN' dhat?a'=i e=iN=the winaN'?aN=i kkaN'=bdha. How many in fact you have died perhaps I hear from you I wish. jod 1890:512.1-2 Partitive without dative. Second person. In embedded position. Wiz^iN'dhe iN't?e, naN'de iN'ppi=m=az^i=hnaN s^aN's^aN. My elder brother died to me, heart bad for me regularly always. jod 1890:506.3 Clear inalienable possessum. First person dative. Simple association of clauses, with body part first person dative in second clause. INda'di, S^e'kki, udhe'hna=tte ha, witta'haN t?e=the. My father, Ceki, you will tell him, my brother-in-law died the. jod 1890:497.8-9 Clear inalienable possessum, but no dative, and verb agrees with possessum. 'Died' in embedded position. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 19 06:37:10 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:37:10 -0600 Subject: Query: Possessor Raising In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 May 2000, Koontz John E wrote: > The construction is also used with partitives, e.g., 'some/many of us > died' or 'some/many of you died', but non partitive constructions occur, > too, perhaps more frequently. I mean, "partitive non-dative constructions ocur, too, ..." > Sometimes the posessum seems to be marked as subject. Marked by the use of a proximate "subject" article. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 19 06:58:22 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:58:22 -0600 Subject: Query: Possessor Raising In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 May 2000, Koontz John E wrote: > S^iN'gaz^iNga aNttaN'=i ede, we't?a=i ha. > Child we had him but, he died to us > A child which we had (?) > jod 1890:347.10-11 I omitted to comment that *ede* (e'=de) is the marker that Dorsey translates 'but' that I think may be the Omaha-Ponca equivalent of Dakotan *c^ha* used as an indefinite head relativizer. Rood & Taylor indicate that *c^ha* tends to indicate something unexpected, which is consistent with the "but" reading. The contexts are more or less consistent with the indefinite head reading. I'm wondering what others interested in Dhegiha or Siouan syntax think about this. In my limited fieldwork I don't believe I ever encountered an example of e'=de, though I'm not sure I would have been able to distinguish it from e'=di 'there, at it' except from context. Like =iN=the 'perhaps', =de tends to occur attached to e=, but can also occur with simple verbs. It also occurs with (e)gaN appended, etc. JEK From r.rankin at latrobe.edu.au Sun May 21 23:48:58 2000 From: r.rankin at latrobe.edu.au (R. Rankin) Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:48:58 +1000 Subject: Query: Possessor Raising Message-ID: SHEA KATHLEEN DORETTE wrote:Yes, the witta is optional, so that you can get "s^inuda iN-t?e" in Ponca. Ah, yes. Siouan languages violating yet another "universal". Thanks. Bob From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Mon May 22 17:11:00 2000 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:11:00 +0100 Subject: Kristineaux Message-ID: Dear all, I know this is a Siouan List. I also know there are Algonquianists out there. Does anyone know the origin of Kristineaux or Kelistineaux from which is derived the name Cree. I have read somewhere that 'one branch of the Cree (presumably Eastern) called themselves Kenistenoag from whence we get this name. If this is true, does anyone know what Kenistenoag means. Bruce Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon May 22 18:55:58 2000 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 13:55:58 -0500 Subject: Kristineaux Message-ID: Bruce, > I know this is a Siouan List. I also know there are Algonquianists out > there. Does anyone know the origin of Kristineaux or Kelistineaux from which > is derived the name Cree. I have read somewhere that 'one branch of the Cree > (presumably Eastern) called themselves Kenistenoag from whence we get this > name. If this is true, does anyone know what Kenistenoag means. The etymology is pretty opaque. Here is what is known, thanks mostly to David Pentland (U. Manitoba) in his synonymy in vol. 6 of the Hdbk. of N. Amer. Indians, and in personal communications: Fr. Christinaux (and inumerable variants) < Ojibway kiris^tino: probably < a (so far unattested) Cree band-name of unknown meaning. The various forms of the sort kVn-, kVr- and kVl- represent synchronic and diachronic variants in Ojibway. The cluster s^t is foreign to Oj. but common in Cree. The -g in some Eng./Fr. forms represents the Algonquian animate plural suffix -k. Dave says "Possibly the kiris^tin(w)- part was a non-Algonquian place name or descriptive term, and only the -o:w is real Algonquian." (The final -ow: in Cree [just -o: in Oj.] is an ethnonymic suffix.) As Dave says, "I know this doesn't clear up any problems, but proper names without contemporary translations are always hard to analyze." Alan -- Alan H. Hartley 119 West Kent Road Duluth MN 55812-1152 U.S.A. 218/724-5095 http://www.d.umn.edu/~ahartley/ From r.rankin at latrobe.edu.au Tue May 23 06:12:03 2000 From: r.rankin at latrobe.edu.au (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 16:12:03 +1000 Subject: Two argument statives. Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I am trying to improve my Siouan Conference paper from last Spring ("Diachronic perspective on Active/Stative Alignment in Siouan") and would like to include treatment of verbs with two pronominal arguments, both of which are stative. Boas and Deloria (1941:77f.), Legendre and Rood (1992:158f.) and Quintero (1997:158ff.) list and discuss several of these in Lakota and Osage. The particular verbs involved include the following: Dakotan: 'like/be pleasing to, look like/resemble, be as X as, be next to, be proud of; and Osage 'love' and 'be tired of'. Perhaps there are more such. I hate to ask others to do my digging for me, but I'm off here in Australia without my Siouan reference library and about to give a colloquium on the topic of my last year's conference paper, and I'd like to include what we know at least about cognacy among this class of 2 argument statives. Can any of you tell me quickly if you have such verbs and what their form is in the language of your choice. I will, of course, acknowledge any help received and will be happy to share my results. I can also send anyone who wants one a copy of the current revision of my conference paper via email attachment in Winword format with the SSDoulos font. I'm really sorry to be missing this year's Conference. Bob From soup at vm.inext.cz Tue May 23 12:37:27 2000 From: soup at vm.inext.cz (SOUP) Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 14:37:27 +0200 Subject: Two argument statives. Message-ID: R. Rankin wrote: > The particular verbs involved include the following: Dakotan: 'like/be > pleasing to, look like/resemble, be as X as, be next to, be proud of; > and Osage 'love' and 'be tired of'. Perhaps there are more such. I'd like > to include what we know at least about cognacy among this class of 2 > argument statives. Can any of you tell me quickly if you have such > verbs and what their form is in the language of your choice. There might be a reason (one that I am not aware of) why you didn't include tha'wa (Buechel's Lakota Grammar #118, 3b, p. 210) in your list, for it seems well known (I think it's somewhere in Boas&Deloria, too): Mani'thawa I am thine. Nimi'thawa Thou art mine. Another one is: ini'haN - to fear someone/something (ini'manihaN - I fear you). I do not have Legendre and Rood (1992) and Quintero (1997) so I am not informed up-to-date. Anyway, here is a list of other verbs that are theoretically 2 argument statives (I think); unfortunately I have no evidence of their "-mani-" or "-nima-" form: iyo'waz^a (< owa'z^a) - to be of someone's business (iyo'mawaz^a - it is of my business) iki'phi - to fit for; be worth of (ima'kiphi - I fit for it / I am worth of it) ima'g^g^a - to be amused with (ima'mag^g^a - I am amused with it) ic^a'h^taka - to bump into (ima'k^ah^take - I bumped into it) ic^a'kiz^a - to suffer because of (ima'kakiz^e - I suffer because of it) itho'kapha - to be elder than (mitho'kapha - I am elder than him) i'thokec^a - be different from (i'mathokec^a - I different from him) iwa's^te - to benefit from (ima'was^te - I benefit from it) iwa'tokhiya - to be worried / concerned about (iwa'matokhiya) iyóyaka - to be aggrieved by (iyo'mayake - I am aggrieved by it/him) i'yakhapha - to surpass something / someone (i'yamakhaphe - I surpass it/him) iyo's^niz^a - to be dazzled by (iyo'mas^niz^a) iyu'taN - to be tempted by (ima'yutaN - I am tempted by) iki'wiNkc^ekc^e - to loose interest in something (ima'kiwiNkc^ekc^e - I lost...) ic^a'g^i - to have something in one's way (ima'c^ag^i - I have something in my way) a'khilehaNkec^a - to be of same size (a'khilemahaNkec^a) (there are many more beginning with a'khi- but you probably know these) > be proud of; I know of three "be proud of" statives: iwíNkta (ima'wiNkta) ig^uN'g^a (ima'g^uNg^e) i'taN (i'mataN) (this one is perhaps just "be proud") Perhaps some of this will be helpful. > I can also send anyone who wants one a copy of the > current revision of my conference paper via email attachment in Winword > format with the SSDoulos font. I'd be very much interested in it. Jan F. Ullrich soup at vm.inext.cz www.inext.cz/siouan From jendye at email.com Tue May 23 15:45:30 2000 From: jendye at email.com (Jennifer Dye) Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 11:45:30 -0400 Subject: please remove Message-ID: please, please, please remove me from your list. ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue May 23 18:01:18 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:01:18 -0600 Subject: please remove In-Reply-To: <385122552.959096730881.JavaMail.root@web14.mail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 May 2000, Jennifer Dye wrote: > please, please, please remove me from your list. To remove yourself from this list send the following message: unsubscribe siouan to the following address: listproc at lists.colorado.edu It is this address and the name of the list (siouan) that varies with the list. Essentially all lists send you a subscription message that explains how to do this. Always save this message as a precaution. Sooner or later you'll need it. If all else fails, I can remove you manually. This might fail because your site has changed its email address format. In this case it was just a case of not knowing what to do, I think. From r.rankin at latrobe.edu.au Wed May 24 02:54:24 2000 From: r.rankin at latrobe.edu.au (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:54:24 +1000 Subject: Two argument statives. Message-ID: Jan, Many thanks for your contributions. Dakotan certainly seems to have a lot more stative verbs than many or most of the other Siouan languages. I sort of doubted that fact when it was brought to my attention by Dr. Regina Pustet, but I no longer do. > There might be a reason (one that I am not aware of) why you didn't include > tha'wa (Buechel's Lakota Grammar #118, 3b, p. 210) in your list, for it > seems well known (I think it's somewhere in Boas&Deloria, too): > > Mani'thawa I am thine. > Nimi'thawa Thou art mine. > I've discussed this one with several other Siouanists and I think there is a lack of agreement on whether the bound stem -tha(wE) is a verb or not. But you are certainly right that it is felt to be a verb by some. > Another one is: > ini'haN - to fear someone/something (ini'manihaN - I fear you). > > I do not have Legendre and Rood (1992) and Quintero (1997) so I am not > informed up-to-date. Anyway, here is a list of other verbs that are > theoretically 2 argument statives (I think); unfortunately I have no > evidence of their "-mani-" or "-nima-" form: Many thanks. The list at least gives other Siouanists a good place to start looking. I agree that they are all good potentials. Rood and Taylor's Lakhota Sketch in the Handbook of North American Indians, vol. 17, p. 468, mentions that in two argument stative verbs the order of 1st and 2nd person affixes is always "ni-" then "ma-" "regardless of the grammatical functions of the affixes. The meaning of verbal forms of this kind is therefore ambiguous." > > iyo'waz^a (< owa'z^a) - to be of someone's business (iyo'mawaz^a - it is of > my business) > iki'phi - to fit for; be worth of (ima'kiphi - I fit for it / I am worth of > it) > ima'g^g^a - to be amused with (ima'mag^g^a - I am amused with it) > ic^a'h^taka - to bump into (ima'k^ah^take - I bumped into it) > ic^a'kiz^a - to suffer because of (ima'kakiz^e - I suffer because of it) > itho'kapha - to be elder than (mitho'kapha - I am elder than him) > i'thokec^a - be different from (i'mathokec^a - I different from him) > iwa's^te - to benefit from (ima'was^te - I benefit from it) > iwa'tokhiya - to be worried / concerned about (iwa'matokhiya) > iyóyaka - to be aggrieved by (iyo'mayake - I am aggrieved by it/him) > i'yakhapha - to surpass something / someone (i'yamakhaphe - I surpass > it/him) > iyo's^niz^a - to be dazzled by (iyo'mas^niz^a) > iyu'taN - to be tempted by (ima'yutaN - I am tempted by) > iki'wiNkc^ekc^e - to loose interest in something (ima'kiwiNkc^ekc^e - I > lost...) > ic^a'g^i - to have something in one's way (ima'c^ag^i - I have something in > my way) > a'khilehaNkec^a - to be of same size (a'khilemahaNkec^a) > (there are many more beginning with a'khi- but you probably know these) > > > be proud of; > > I know of three "be proud of" statives: > iwíNkta (ima'wiNkta) > ig^uN'g^a (ima'g^uNg^e) > i'taN (i'mataN) (this one is perhaps just "be proud") > > Perhaps some of this will be helpful. yes indeed. Thank you. Bob From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Wed May 24 14:37:37 2000 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 08:37:37 -0600 Subject: Two argument statives. In-Reply-To: <392B4460.5D713D4F@latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: DEar Bob, I am really impressed with Jan's list -- I don't think anyone has ever assembled the possibilities so carefully before. But we need to check most of those with speakers (and there is likely to be some speaker disagreement) unless Regina has already done so -- she's currently in Denver, but not settled or using email regularly yet. As for the ni-ma ordering of affixes, I put that in the sketch with a certain amount of trepidation. Deloria says the same thing (pp 77-78), giving a list which only takes -nima-, and the assertion that for you-me statements, one must use the reciprical (khi) and the dual uN(k), giving 'we two...each other', literally. The ni-ma sequence is the only one I was ever able to elicit from the people I've worked with, but somewhere, in someone else's description (VanValin maybe, or Williamson -- I can't remember) I've seen this contradicted. If someone has more data on this, I'd like to know about it, too. DAvid David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado Campus Box 295 Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From Rgraczyk at aol.com Fri May 26 01:31:24 2000 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:31:24 EDT Subject: Two argument statives. Message-ID: Bob: The following are the only two-argument statives that I can think of offhand: chiche'e 'resemble' achi' 'join, belong to' baaia'leeta 'be proud of' i'hkuluu 'be touching' i'kuxxa 'be equal to' If I find any more, I'll let you know. Randy From r.rankin at latrobe.edu.au Fri May 26 03:05:08 2000 From: r.rankin at latrobe.edu.au (R. Rankin) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:05:08 +1000 Subject: Two argument statives. Message-ID: Randy, Many thanks for the help. Bob > The following are the only two-argument statives that I can think of offhand: > > chiche'e 'resemble' > achi' 'join, belong to' > baaia'leeta 'be proud of' > i'hkuluu 'be touching' > i'kuxxa 'be equal to' From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue May 2 07:04:48 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 01:04:48 -0600 Subject: More on Dhegiha Evidential Message-ID: The following is material from Ardis Eschenberg, posted by permission: I basically agree with John (though I likely have less evidence!), but I do get the with declarative I think. Dorsey 58.8 wa'uzhiNga dhittuspa haNbthiNge aNkki'ai dhaNshti waNgishe-xti we'iN old lady grandson beans we hoed heretofore all-very carry for us for ourselves agii the he, a-bi-ama. was coming back DEC said-Prox-QUO 'Your grandson was coming back hither carrying away from us all the beans we hoed for ourselves.'they said. I think there are other examples, but I can't find them now. I'm pretty sure the above is the and not tta due to context alone (the granson was already there and hidden). I have to think more about the exact parameters of when it is used. John's explanation seemed pretty good to me. Also, it occurs in the right place for an evidential type clitic. -Ardis From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon May 8 20:18:57 2000 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 14:18:57 -0600 Subject: Conference update Message-ID: Dear Siouanists, Please remember to send me a paper title by Friday of this week. There will be a $15.00 registration fee for the conference. If this is a hardship for anyone you know, please discuss it with me. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado Campus Box 295 Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From munro at ucla.edu Sat May 13 14:42:14 2000 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 07:42:14 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: Edison Movie] Message-ID: Maybe you guys have all seen this. One of my students brought it to my attention. Kind of dark, but still interesting! Pam -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: macbride at ucla.edu Subject: Edison Movie Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 13:10:09 +0000 Size: 2063 URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue May 16 18:57:32 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:57:32 -0600 Subject: Query: Possessor Raising Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:01:58 -0600 From: "R. Rankin" To: john.koontz at colorado.edu Subject: For Siouan list. John, this is for the list. could you post it for me? thanks. Bob A question has arisen here in Australia where I am currently about "possessor raising" in Siouan. One of the Quapaws who had not used her language in a long time gave me a sentence "shoNke aN-t?e" for 'my dog died' or possibly 'my dog died on me'. Note that possession is indicated by the patient pronominal prefix, aN- rather than with the alienable possessive "witta" 'my'. The learned typologists here tell me that they shouldn't be able to get this kind of possessor raising if the possessed object is animate (like 'dog'). How does this work out in the languages you know? Can you get possessor raising with animate objects or is it confined strictly to inanimates? Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue May 16 19:06:49 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 13:06:49 -0600 Subject: Query: Possessor Raising Message-ID: The construction I recall for OP is git?e, e.g., (?) s^i'nudaN iNt?e. 'my dog has died'. This has an unusual minor pattern argument structure. It's a dative object version of the dhiNge structure: N[pat2] pro[pat1]-verb, e.g., a theme without any verbal concord (but third person, so ...) plus a marked patient pronominal inflection (experiencer or whatever). I wonder if Quapaw could have shifted to the non-dative version from the dative one? I don't recall this verb with 'dog', but it definitely occurs with kinterms. From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Wed May 17 18:23:10 2000 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:23:10 -0600 Subject: Siouan/Caddoan Conference program Message-ID: Friday, June 2 9:00 Registration 9:30 Opening Prayer: Dru Pickard, Elder Opening Remarks: Gary McAdams, President Virgil Swift, Treasurer and Historical Preservation Officer 10:00 T.C. Grimm (Kansas). Another look at Proto-Siouan *r and *y. 10:30 Coffee break. 11:00 Regina Pustet (Univ. of Munich, Germany). Lakota Postpositions. 11:30 Bruce Ingham, SOAS (London). An investigation of the occurrence of the emphatic suffixes - hca, -hce and -hci in Lakhota. 12:00 Lunch break. 2:00 Linda Cumberland (Indiana University). The stop phonemes of Assiniboine: Empirical evidence from spectrographic analysis. 2:30 Catherine Rudin (Wayne State, NE). Insights from an Omaha Linguistics Class. 3:00 Coffee break. 3:30 - 5:00 OPEN DISCUSSION WITH ANADARKO AREA TRIBES ON LANGUAGE ISSUES 6:30 Dinner and Handgame hosted by Wichita Language Class Saturday June 3 9:00 John Koontz (Colorado). Evidentials and Consequentials in Omaha-Ponca. 9:30 Ardis R Eschenberg (SUNY Buffalo). Referential Distance and Animate Articles in Omaha. 10:00 Business meeting. 10:30 Coffee break. 11:00 John P. Boyle (Univ. of Chicago). Causative constructions and valency changing morphology in Hidatsa. . 11:30 Nicole Lea Evans (Indiana U.). Phrasal Markers and Pitch Accent in Pawnee. 12:00 David Rood (Univ. of Colorado) Speaking polysynthetically. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado Campus Box 295 Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Wed May 17 19:40:11 2000 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 13:40:11 -0600 Subject: A little more about the conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just spoke again with Gary McAdams, Wichita tribal president. He would like me to tell you that the program, a map of how to get to the tribal complex, and a registration form are or soon will be available on the Wichita tribal web site, www.wichita.nsn.us. Registration ($15) can take place at the conference on Friday morning. He has also invited anyone who is in town Thursday evening to come to the tribal complex around 7:00 for a reception. Thursday is the regular meeting of a group studying and working to preserve traditional Wichita songs. Maps to the tribal complex should be available in the motel. If you still need information on housing, let me know. The motel is still holding rooms for us, and will do so until 10 days before the conference, but you must tell them that you're with the conference when you call -- otherwise they're sold out for that weekend. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado Campus Box 295 Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 17 May 2000, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > > Here is the (hopefully final) program for the Siouan/Caddoan conference. > Write back to me if you need further information. > DAvid > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > Campus Box 295 > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > > Friday, June 2 > > 9:00 Registration > > 9:30 Opening Prayer: Dru Pickard, Elder > Opening Remarks: > Gary McAdams, President > Virgil Swift, Treasurer and > Historical Preservation Officer > > 10:00 T.C. Grimm (Kansas). > Another look at Proto-Siouan > *r and *y. > 10:30 Coffee break. > > 11:00 Regina Pustet (Univ. of > Munich, Germany). > Lakota Postpositions. > > 11:30 Bruce Ingham, SOAS (London). > An investigation of the > occurrence of the emphatic > suffixes - hca, -hce and -hci in > Lakhota. > > 12:00 Lunch break. > > 2:00 Linda Cumberland (Indiana > University). The stop > phonemes of Assiniboine: > Empirical evidence from > spectrographic analysis. > > 2:30 Catherine Rudin (Wayne State, > NE). Insights from an Omaha > Linguistics Class. > 3:00 Coffee break. > > 3:30 - 5:00 OPEN DISCUSSION > WITH ANADARKO AREA TRIBES > ON LANGUAGE ISSUES > > 6:30 Dinner and Handgame hosted by > Wichita Language Class > > Saturday June 3 > > 9:00 John Koontz (Colorado). > Evidentials and Consequentials > in Omaha-Ponca. > > 9:30 Ardis R Eschenberg (SUNY > Buffalo). Referential Distance > and Animate Articles in Omaha. > > 10:00 Business meeting. > > 10:30 Coffee break. > > 11:00 John P. Boyle (Univ. of > Chicago). Causative > constructions and valency > changing morphology in > Hidatsa. . > > 11:30 Nicole Lea Evans (Indiana U.). > Phrasal Markers and Pitch > Accent in Pawnee. > > 12:00 David Rood (Univ. of Colorado) > Speaking polysynthetically. > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > Campus Box 295 > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > > From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Thu May 18 10:14:51 2000 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (SHEA KATHLEEN DORETTE) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 05:14:51 -0500 Subject: Query: Possessor Raising In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In answer to Bob's query, I asked Parrish Williams (a native speaker of Ponca) today for a translation for 'My dog died' in Ponca and got "s^inuda witta t?e." When I asked him for something like 'The/my dog died on me,' I got "s^inuda (witta) iN-t?e." When I asked him outright if one could say, "s^inuda aN-t?e," reading him the corresponding Quapaw sentence Bob had recorded, or even "s^inuda witta aN-t?e," I got a definite no from him. This confirms John's form for Omaha-Ponca. By the way, I don't know if this is newsworthy for the Siouan list, but Rolf Clements, a new subscriber to the list and a member, as am I, of the Ponca Language Arts Council, Ponca Nation of Oklahoma, which is concerned with developing a curriculum for the Frontier High School Ponca language class taught by Henry Lieb (also a fluent, native speaker of Ponca), just made a wonderful flier to be posted announcing the dinner I'm sponsoring (on behalf of the Ponca Language Arts Council) for the Ponca elders, Ponca speakers, and other interested people this Friday at noon at the Methodist Church in White Eagle. (Commissioner of Indian Affairs for the State of Oklahoma Barbara Warner, a Ponca, is our invited speaker and is coming to lead a discussion about Ponca clans.) Anyway, the flier is in English, captioned with one Ponca sentence written in the alphabet that PLAC recently developed and that has been newly endorsed in a resolution by the Ponca Business Council as the tribe's primary alphabet (with accent marks omitted in e-mail and with a capital N standing for a raised n, indicating that the preceding vowel is nasal, and a capital H standing for a raised h, indicating that the preceding stop is aspirated): ANba gatHedi haNga aNguhaN ta aNgatHaN PaNka ie ukikHunethe aNgatHaN! 'The Ponca Language Arts Council is going to cook on this day!' I think that to be able to extend the use of Ponca in this way, through a written public announcement, is pretty exciting, since it reflects the culmination of a yearlong process. I've been wanting to sponsor a dinner for the elders for a long time, just because I don't hear very much Ponca being spoken around here. I'm hoping that people will show up and will speak a lot of Ponca, especially since I got enough food to feed an army! I hope I'm not gushing too much or sounding as if I'm boasting or being anything but proud of all the people who have contributed to this effort (core PLAC members Parrish Williams, Henry Lieb, Lucy Cries For Ribs, the late Josetta Rush, Bertha LeRoy, Dwight Buffalo Head, Carol Le Clair, Alice Anderton, Phyllis Rush, Rolf Clements, and myself). Any of you out there who live near Ponca City are invited! Kathy Shea On Tue, 16 May 2000, Koontz John E wrote: > The construction I recall for OP is git?e, e.g., (?) s^i'nudaN iNt?e. 'my > dog has died'. This has an unusual minor pattern argument structure. > It's a dative object version of the dhiNge structure: N[pat2] > pro[pat1]-verb, e.g., a theme without any verbal concord (but third > person, so ...) plus a marked patient pronominal inflection (experiencer > or whatever). I wonder if Quapaw could have shifted to the non-dative > version from the dative one? > > I don't recall this verb with 'dog', but it definitely occurs with kinterms. > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu May 18 14:32:58 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 08:32:58 -0600 Subject: Query: Possessor Raising In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2000, SHEA KATHLEEN DORETTE wrote: > In answer to Bob's query, I asked Parrish Williams (a native speaker of > Ponca) today for a translation for 'My dog died' in Ponca and got "s^inuda > witta t?e." When I asked him for something like 'The/my dog died on me,' > I got "s^inuda (witta) iN-t?e." In a side letter, Bob reminded me that the Osage pattern for the dative is aN + gi => aN', not iN' (as in Omaha-Ponca). So this may well be the correct form for the dative in Quapaw (and would be in Osage). Neither of us has tried to look for evidence on the inflection of the dative in Quapaw yet. Is there a similar construction in Dakotan? From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu May 18 14:36:30 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 08:36:30 -0600 Subject: For Siouan list. (fwd) Message-ID: I think I can just post this, though I interpreted the "For Siouan List" as applying to the original, and not this follow up. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 08:05:15 -0600 From: "R. Rankin" To: john.koontz at colorado.edu Subject: Re: For Siouan list. > ...the construction I recall > for OP is git?e, e.g., s^i'nudaN iNt?e. ... You may remember that in Carolyn Quintero's Osage the aN+ki- construction collapsed to aN- (I think) rather than iN-, as in OP. I think Kaw has the same, so maybe that's what happened in Quapaw. ... Bob Note that neither of us is claiming that we know or recall the Quapaw dative paradigm, though I believe Bob is correct in regard to Osage, and Kaw is pretty close to Osage in many respects. JEK From FurbeeL at missouri.edu Thu May 18 20:42:05 2000 From: FurbeeL at missouri.edu (Louanna Furbee) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 15:42:05 -0500 Subject: Siouan/Caddoan Conference Housing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave, Just made my reservation for the S/C conf. Arriving June 1, probably pretty late in the day. Louanna From r.rankin at latrobe.edu.au Thu May 18 22:46:56 2000 From: r.rankin at latrobe.edu.au (R. Rankin) Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 08:46:56 +1000 Subject: Query: Possessor Raising Message-ID: > In answer to Bob's query, I asked Parrish Williams (a native speaker of > Ponca) today for a translation for 'My dog died' in Ponca and got "s^inuda > witta t?e." When I asked him for something like 'The/my dog died on me,' > I got "s^inuda (witta) iN-t?e." When I asked him outright if one could > say, "s^inuda aN-t?e," reading him the corresponding Quapaw sentence Bob > had recorded, or even "s^inuda witta aN-t?e," I got a definite no from > him. This confirms John's form for Omaha-Ponca. The question in Omaha and Ponca would be whether you could get "Shinuda iNt?e" by itself. aN+ki (dative/benefactive) collapses to iN- in Ponca but aN- in Quapaw. There's a "ki" hidden in there. You report Shinuda (witta) iNt?e. does that mean the witta is optional? That's my basic question. Bob From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Fri May 19 05:51:59 2000 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (SHEA KATHLEEN DORETTE) Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:51:59 -0500 Subject: Query: Possessor Raising In-Reply-To: <392472E0.405496A6@latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: Yes, the witta is optional, so that you can get "s^inuda iN-t?e" in Ponca. Kathy Shea On Fri, 19 May 2000, R. Rankin wrote: > > In answer to Bob's query, I asked Parrish Williams (a native speaker of > > Ponca) today for a translation for 'My dog died' in Ponca and got "s^inuda > > witta t?e." When I asked him for something like 'The/my dog died on me,' > > I got "s^inuda (witta) iN-t?e." When I asked him outright if one could > > say, "s^inuda aN-t?e," reading him the corresponding Quapaw sentence Bob > > had recorded, or even "s^inuda witta aN-t?e," I got a definite no from > > him. This confirms John's form for Omaha-Ponca. > > The question in Omaha and Ponca would be whether you could get "Shinuda iNt?e" by > itself. aN+ki (dative/benefactive) collapses to iN- in Ponca but aN- in Quapaw. > There's a "ki" hidden in there. You report Shinuda (witta) iNt?e. does that mean > the witta is optional? That's my basic question. > > Bob > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 19 06:27:27 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:27:27 -0600 Subject: Query: Possessor Raising In-Reply-To: <392472E0.405496A6@latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: Bob asks: > The question in Omaha and Ponca would be whether you could > get "Shinuda iNt?e" by itself. aN+ki (dative/benefactive) collapses > to iN- in Ponca but aN- in Quapaw. There's a "ki" hidden in there. > You report Shinuda (witta) iNt?e. Does that mean the witta is > optional? That's my basic question. Examples from Dorsey 1890. Basically, it looks to me as though an animate inalienable possessum generally gets the dative construction with all persons of possessors, though some non-dative examples occur in at least embedded contexts. The construction is also used with partitives, e.g., 'some/many of us died' or 'some/many of you died', but non partitive constructions occur, too, perhaps more frequently. Sometimes the posessum seems to be marked as subject. S^iN'gaz^iNga git?e' ugdha'=bi=ama. Child his was dead he told of his, they say. jod 1890:347.10 Inalienable possession. Third person. Ni'kkas^iNga ama iN't?a=i People the have died to me jod 1890:495.8 Presumably 'people' refers to friends, kin, associates, so inalienable possession or at least initmate association. First person. Possessum marked as subject with article. S^iN'gaz^iNga aNttaN'=i ede, we't?a=i ha. Child we had him but, he died to us A child which we had (?) jod 1890:347.10-11 Inalienable possession. Inclusive person. Di'ghe=s^te wakhe'ga a'higi wea't?a=i UmaN'haN ama. Small-pox too sick many died to us Omahas the. jod 1890:399.8 "Many of our/us Omahas had died of the smallpox." Partitive. Inclusive person. Dative formation. Possessor marked as subject? Or is it the possessum? Noun subject with inclusive agreement. N.B.: Case before has wa-(gi)-; this, wa-(gi)-a-. Is this just personal variation, or something else? GaN' ni'kkas^iNga s^e'nuz^iNga wahe'h=az^i=xti bahi'=xti aNt?a'=i ha. And person young man very stout-hearted picked we have died. jod 1890:502.2 Partitive. Inclusive peson. Non-dative formation. Compare to (1890:399.8) (smallpox example). N.B.: 'Very stout-hearted' is literally 'very not trembling'. Ni'as^iNga aNt?a'=i ha. People we have died jod 1890:687.3-4 Partitive. Inclusive person. Non-dative formation. A'=na s^aN' dhat?a'=i e=iN=the winaN'?aN=i kkaN'=bdha. How many in fact you have died perhaps I hear from you I wish. jod 1890:512.1-2 Partitive without dative. Second person. In embedded position. Wiz^iN'dhe iN't?e, naN'de iN'ppi=m=az^i=hnaN s^aN's^aN. My elder brother died to me, heart bad for me regularly always. jod 1890:506.3 Clear inalienable possessum. First person dative. Simple association of clauses, with body part first person dative in second clause. INda'di, S^e'kki, udhe'hna=tte ha, witta'haN t?e=the. My father, Ceki, you will tell him, my brother-in-law died the. jod 1890:497.8-9 Clear inalienable possessum, but no dative, and verb agrees with possessum. 'Died' in embedded position. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 19 06:37:10 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:37:10 -0600 Subject: Query: Possessor Raising In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 May 2000, Koontz John E wrote: > The construction is also used with partitives, e.g., 'some/many of us > died' or 'some/many of you died', but non partitive constructions occur, > too, perhaps more frequently. I mean, "partitive non-dative constructions ocur, too, ..." > Sometimes the posessum seems to be marked as subject. Marked by the use of a proximate "subject" article. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 19 06:58:22 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:58:22 -0600 Subject: Query: Possessor Raising In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 May 2000, Koontz John E wrote: > S^iN'gaz^iNga aNttaN'=i ede, we't?a=i ha. > Child we had him but, he died to us > A child which we had (?) > jod 1890:347.10-11 I omitted to comment that *ede* (e'=de) is the marker that Dorsey translates 'but' that I think may be the Omaha-Ponca equivalent of Dakotan *c^ha* used as an indefinite head relativizer. Rood & Taylor indicate that *c^ha* tends to indicate something unexpected, which is consistent with the "but" reading. The contexts are more or less consistent with the indefinite head reading. I'm wondering what others interested in Dhegiha or Siouan syntax think about this. In my limited fieldwork I don't believe I ever encountered an example of e'=de, though I'm not sure I would have been able to distinguish it from e'=di 'there, at it' except from context. Like =iN=the 'perhaps', =de tends to occur attached to e=, but can also occur with simple verbs. It also occurs with (e)gaN appended, etc. JEK From r.rankin at latrobe.edu.au Sun May 21 23:48:58 2000 From: r.rankin at latrobe.edu.au (R. Rankin) Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:48:58 +1000 Subject: Query: Possessor Raising Message-ID: SHEA KATHLEEN DORETTE wrote:Yes, the witta is optional, so that you can get "s^inuda iN-t?e" in Ponca. Ah, yes. Siouan languages violating yet another "universal". Thanks. Bob From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Mon May 22 17:11:00 2000 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:11:00 +0100 Subject: Kristineaux Message-ID: Dear all, I know this is a Siouan List. I also know there are Algonquianists out there. Does anyone know the origin of Kristineaux or Kelistineaux from which is derived the name Cree. I have read somewhere that 'one branch of the Cree (presumably Eastern) called themselves Kenistenoag from whence we get this name. If this is true, does anyone know what Kenistenoag means. Bruce Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon May 22 18:55:58 2000 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 13:55:58 -0500 Subject: Kristineaux Message-ID: Bruce, > I know this is a Siouan List. I also know there are Algonquianists out > there. Does anyone know the origin of Kristineaux or Kelistineaux from which > is derived the name Cree. I have read somewhere that 'one branch of the Cree > (presumably Eastern) called themselves Kenistenoag from whence we get this > name. If this is true, does anyone know what Kenistenoag means. The etymology is pretty opaque. Here is what is known, thanks mostly to David Pentland (U. Manitoba) in his synonymy in vol. 6 of the Hdbk. of N. Amer. Indians, and in personal communications: Fr. Christinaux (and inumerable variants) < Ojibway kiris^tino: probably < a (so far unattested) Cree band-name of unknown meaning. The various forms of the sort kVn-, kVr- and kVl- represent synchronic and diachronic variants in Ojibway. The cluster s^t is foreign to Oj. but common in Cree. The -g in some Eng./Fr. forms represents the Algonquian animate plural suffix -k. Dave says "Possibly the kiris^tin(w)- part was a non-Algonquian place name or descriptive term, and only the -o:w is real Algonquian." (The final -ow: in Cree [just -o: in Oj.] is an ethnonymic suffix.) As Dave says, "I know this doesn't clear up any problems, but proper names without contemporary translations are always hard to analyze." Alan -- Alan H. Hartley 119 West Kent Road Duluth MN 55812-1152 U.S.A. 218/724-5095 http://www.d.umn.edu/~ahartley/ From r.rankin at latrobe.edu.au Tue May 23 06:12:03 2000 From: r.rankin at latrobe.edu.au (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 16:12:03 +1000 Subject: Two argument statives. Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I am trying to improve my Siouan Conference paper from last Spring ("Diachronic perspective on Active/Stative Alignment in Siouan") and would like to include treatment of verbs with two pronominal arguments, both of which are stative. Boas and Deloria (1941:77f.), Legendre and Rood (1992:158f.) and Quintero (1997:158ff.) list and discuss several of these in Lakota and Osage. The particular verbs involved include the following: Dakotan: 'like/be pleasing to, look like/resemble, be as X as, be next to, be proud of; and Osage 'love' and 'be tired of'. Perhaps there are more such. I hate to ask others to do my digging for me, but I'm off here in Australia without my Siouan reference library and about to give a colloquium on the topic of my last year's conference paper, and I'd like to include what we know at least about cognacy among this class of 2 argument statives. Can any of you tell me quickly if you have such verbs and what their form is in the language of your choice. I will, of course, acknowledge any help received and will be happy to share my results. I can also send anyone who wants one a copy of the current revision of my conference paper via email attachment in Winword format with the SSDoulos font. I'm really sorry to be missing this year's Conference. Bob From soup at vm.inext.cz Tue May 23 12:37:27 2000 From: soup at vm.inext.cz (SOUP) Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 14:37:27 +0200 Subject: Two argument statives. Message-ID: R. Rankin wrote: > The particular verbs involved include the following: Dakotan: 'like/be > pleasing to, look like/resemble, be as X as, be next to, be proud of; > and Osage 'love' and 'be tired of'. Perhaps there are more such. I'd like > to include what we know at least about cognacy among this class of 2 > argument statives. Can any of you tell me quickly if you have such > verbs and what their form is in the language of your choice. There might be a reason (one that I am not aware of) why you didn't include tha'wa (Buechel's Lakota Grammar #118, 3b, p. 210) in your list, for it seems well known (I think it's somewhere in Boas&Deloria, too): Mani'thawa I am thine. Nimi'thawa Thou art mine. Another one is: ini'haN - to fear someone/something (ini'manihaN - I fear you). I do not have Legendre and Rood (1992) and Quintero (1997) so I am not informed up-to-date. Anyway, here is a list of other verbs that are theoretically 2 argument statives (I think); unfortunately I have no evidence of their "-mani-" or "-nima-" form: iyo'waz^a (< owa'z^a) - to be of someone's business (iyo'mawaz^a - it is of my business) iki'phi - to fit for; be worth of (ima'kiphi - I fit for it / I am worth of it) ima'g^g^a - to be amused with (ima'mag^g^a - I am amused with it) ic^a'h^taka - to bump into (ima'k^ah^take - I bumped into it) ic^a'kiz^a - to suffer because of (ima'kakiz^e - I suffer because of it) itho'kapha - to be elder than (mitho'kapha - I am elder than him) i'thokec^a - be different from (i'mathokec^a - I different from him) iwa's^te - to benefit from (ima'was^te - I benefit from it) iwa'tokhiya - to be worried / concerned about (iwa'matokhiya) iy?yaka - to be aggrieved by (iyo'mayake - I am aggrieved by it/him) i'yakhapha - to surpass something / someone (i'yamakhaphe - I surpass it/him) iyo's^niz^a - to be dazzled by (iyo'mas^niz^a) iyu'taN - to be tempted by (ima'yutaN - I am tempted by) iki'wiNkc^ekc^e - to loose interest in something (ima'kiwiNkc^ekc^e - I lost...) ic^a'g^i - to have something in one's way (ima'c^ag^i - I have something in my way) a'khilehaNkec^a - to be of same size (a'khilemahaNkec^a) (there are many more beginning with a'khi- but you probably know these) > be proud of; I know of three "be proud of" statives: iw?Nkta (ima'wiNkta) ig^uN'g^a (ima'g^uNg^e) i'taN (i'mataN) (this one is perhaps just "be proud") Perhaps some of this will be helpful. > I can also send anyone who wants one a copy of the > current revision of my conference paper via email attachment in Winword > format with the SSDoulos font. I'd be very much interested in it. Jan F. Ullrich soup at vm.inext.cz www.inext.cz/siouan From jendye at email.com Tue May 23 15:45:30 2000 From: jendye at email.com (Jennifer Dye) Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 11:45:30 -0400 Subject: please remove Message-ID: please, please, please remove me from your list. ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue May 23 18:01:18 2000 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:01:18 -0600 Subject: please remove In-Reply-To: <385122552.959096730881.JavaMail.root@web14.mail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 May 2000, Jennifer Dye wrote: > please, please, please remove me from your list. To remove yourself from this list send the following message: unsubscribe siouan to the following address: listproc at lists.colorado.edu It is this address and the name of the list (siouan) that varies with the list. Essentially all lists send you a subscription message that explains how to do this. Always save this message as a precaution. Sooner or later you'll need it. If all else fails, I can remove you manually. This might fail because your site has changed its email address format. In this case it was just a case of not knowing what to do, I think. From r.rankin at latrobe.edu.au Wed May 24 02:54:24 2000 From: r.rankin at latrobe.edu.au (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:54:24 +1000 Subject: Two argument statives. Message-ID: Jan, Many thanks for your contributions. Dakotan certainly seems to have a lot more stative verbs than many or most of the other Siouan languages. I sort of doubted that fact when it was brought to my attention by Dr. Regina Pustet, but I no longer do. > There might be a reason (one that I am not aware of) why you didn't include > tha'wa (Buechel's Lakota Grammar #118, 3b, p. 210) in your list, for it > seems well known (I think it's somewhere in Boas&Deloria, too): > > Mani'thawa I am thine. > Nimi'thawa Thou art mine. > I've discussed this one with several other Siouanists and I think there is a lack of agreement on whether the bound stem -tha(wE) is a verb or not. But you are certainly right that it is felt to be a verb by some. > Another one is: > ini'haN - to fear someone/something (ini'manihaN - I fear you). > > I do not have Legendre and Rood (1992) and Quintero (1997) so I am not > informed up-to-date. Anyway, here is a list of other verbs that are > theoretically 2 argument statives (I think); unfortunately I have no > evidence of their "-mani-" or "-nima-" form: Many thanks. The list at least gives other Siouanists a good place to start looking. I agree that they are all good potentials. Rood and Taylor's Lakhota Sketch in the Handbook of North American Indians, vol. 17, p. 468, mentions that in two argument stative verbs the order of 1st and 2nd person affixes is always "ni-" then "ma-" "regardless of the grammatical functions of the affixes. The meaning of verbal forms of this kind is therefore ambiguous." > > iyo'waz^a (< owa'z^a) - to be of someone's business (iyo'mawaz^a - it is of > my business) > iki'phi - to fit for; be worth of (ima'kiphi - I fit for it / I am worth of > it) > ima'g^g^a - to be amused with (ima'mag^g^a - I am amused with it) > ic^a'h^taka - to bump into (ima'k^ah^take - I bumped into it) > ic^a'kiz^a - to suffer because of (ima'kakiz^e - I suffer because of it) > itho'kapha - to be elder than (mitho'kapha - I am elder than him) > i'thokec^a - be different from (i'mathokec^a - I different from him) > iwa's^te - to benefit from (ima'was^te - I benefit from it) > iwa'tokhiya - to be worried / concerned about (iwa'matokhiya) > iy?yaka - to be aggrieved by (iyo'mayake - I am aggrieved by it/him) > i'yakhapha - to surpass something / someone (i'yamakhaphe - I surpass > it/him) > iyo's^niz^a - to be dazzled by (iyo'mas^niz^a) > iyu'taN - to be tempted by (ima'yutaN - I am tempted by) > iki'wiNkc^ekc^e - to loose interest in something (ima'kiwiNkc^ekc^e - I > lost...) > ic^a'g^i - to have something in one's way (ima'c^ag^i - I have something in > my way) > a'khilehaNkec^a - to be of same size (a'khilemahaNkec^a) > (there are many more beginning with a'khi- but you probably know these) > > > be proud of; > > I know of three "be proud of" statives: > iw?Nkta (ima'wiNkta) > ig^uN'g^a (ima'g^uNg^e) > i'taN (i'mataN) (this one is perhaps just "be proud") > > Perhaps some of this will be helpful. yes indeed. Thank you. Bob From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Wed May 24 14:37:37 2000 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 08:37:37 -0600 Subject: Two argument statives. In-Reply-To: <392B4460.5D713D4F@latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: DEar Bob, I am really impressed with Jan's list -- I don't think anyone has ever assembled the possibilities so carefully before. But we need to check most of those with speakers (and there is likely to be some speaker disagreement) unless Regina has already done so -- she's currently in Denver, but not settled or using email regularly yet. As for the ni-ma ordering of affixes, I put that in the sketch with a certain amount of trepidation. Deloria says the same thing (pp 77-78), giving a list which only takes -nima-, and the assertion that for you-me statements, one must use the reciprical (khi) and the dual uN(k), giving 'we two...each other', literally. The ni-ma sequence is the only one I was ever able to elicit from the people I've worked with, but somewhere, in someone else's description (VanValin maybe, or Williamson -- I can't remember) I've seen this contradicted. If someone has more data on this, I'd like to know about it, too. DAvid David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado Campus Box 295 Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From Rgraczyk at aol.com Fri May 26 01:31:24 2000 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:31:24 EDT Subject: Two argument statives. Message-ID: Bob: The following are the only two-argument statives that I can think of offhand: chiche'e 'resemble' achi' 'join, belong to' baaia'leeta 'be proud of' i'hkuluu 'be touching' i'kuxxa 'be equal to' If I find any more, I'll let you know. Randy From r.rankin at latrobe.edu.au Fri May 26 03:05:08 2000 From: r.rankin at latrobe.edu.au (R. Rankin) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:05:08 +1000 Subject: Two argument statives. Message-ID: Randy, Many thanks for the help. Bob > The following are the only two-argument statives that I can think of offhand: > > chiche'e 'resemble' > achi' 'join, belong to' > baaia'leeta 'be proud of' > i'hkuluu 'be touching' > i'kuxxa 'be equal to'