From pustet at babel.Colorado.EDU Mon Apr 2 23:38:07 2001 From: pustet at babel.Colorado.EDU (regina pustet) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 17:38:07 -0600 Subject: Lakota demonstratives Message-ID: Dear Siouanists: Obviously, there are three demonstratives in Lakota: le' 'this, he' 'that', and ka' 'that over yonder' (Boas & Deloria 1941:114). However, in the large body of Lakota texts I have compiled about five years ago, there is not a single instance of ka' occurring as a demonstrative, either with or without a head noun. ka' is used as an adverb meaning 'over yonder' though. What's going on? Dialectal variation? (My speakers are from Pine Ridge and Rosebud.) Or is ka' going out of use, perhaps under the influence of English, which does not have a triple distinction of demonstratives? Do comparative Siouan data shed some more light on the issue? Regina From Zylogy at aol.com Tue Apr 3 01:08:17 2001 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 21:08:17 EDT Subject: Lakota demonstratives Message-ID: Any hints that le', he', ka' might go back to very widespread triplet T, K, KW for proximal, medial, distal (sometimes the latter two are interpreted as distal and irrealis, out of sight, etc.) in spatial demonstrative systems? If so, would there be any tendency to let the distal go first hierarchically, as there sometimes isn't any great need to let go of what isn't here and now, in view, etc.? Many languages have 1st and 2nd personal pronouns transparently derivative off the first two, but few (if any- none come immediately to mind) have any from the third. Maybe its just discourse factors, and the third/distal form tends to get lexicalized? Thoughts? Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 3 03:14:33 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:14:33 -0500 Subject: Lakota demonstratives Message-ID: >Obviously, there are three demonstratives in Lakota: le' 'this, he' >'that', and ka' 'that over yonder' >Do comparative Siouan data shed some more light on the >issue? In most Siouan languages the three seem to be reflexes of Proto Siouan proximate: *re ~ *Re (Dakotan from the latter) distal: *$e out of sight: *ka aforementioned: *?e: At least one Dakotan dialect (Stoney?) has /z^e/ (old notes I have from Allan Taylor) for the distal rather than /he/. I don't know where /he/ comes from. The local reflexes of /ka/ seem to be productive in Dhegiha dialects, but I'm afraid I don't know anything more about the Dakotan forms. Bob P.S. Have you returned from RCLT in Melbourne or not gone yet? From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 3 03:19:52 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:19:52 -0500 Subject: Lakota demonstratives Message-ID: >Any hints that le', he', ka' might go back to very widespread triplet T, >K, KW for proximal, medial, distal (sometimes the latter two are >interpreted as distal and irrealis, out of sight, etc.) in spatial >demonstrative systems? Jess, No. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 3 14:41:34 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 08:41:34 -0600 Subject: Lakota demonstratives In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A441446@skylark.mail.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Apr 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > In most Siouan languages the three seem to be reflexes of Proto Siouan > > proximate: *re ~ *Re (Dakotan from the latter) > distal: *$e > out of sight: *ka > > aforementioned: *?e: > > At least one Dakotan dialect (Stoney?) has /z^e/ (old notes I have from > Allan Taylor) for the distal rather than /he/. I don't know where /he/ comes > from. The local reflexes of /ka/ seem to be productive in Dhegiha dialects, > but I'm afraid I don't know anything more about the Dakotan forms. My impression is that all of the grades were reasonably productive in Omaha-Ponca c. 1900 and still are, along with du, s^u, and gu, which are used with motion verbs and elsewhere in parallel with the dhe, s^e, ga set. The e 'aforementioned' (or maybe it's just the independent third person pronoun), is also common. There are a number of ways to shade the meaning of the dhe/s^e/ga set with what look like verbs of motion, e.g., ga, gahi, gahidhe. I tend to think of the du/s^u/gu set as somewhat like Spanish aca, alla. At one point I thought that the Dakota he forms might match the Dhegiha s^e forms involving a sound correspondence also illustrated in the second person of 'to say', e.g., Da ehe, OP es^e 'you say', perhaps *s^h, but Stoney z^e, compared with OP s^e, Winnebago z^ee seems to suggest not. As Bob points out, that leaves he unaccounted for. JEK From mosind at yahoo.com Tue Apr 3 20:18:42 2001 From: mosind at yahoo.com (Wablenica) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 00:18:42 +0400 Subject: Lakota demonstratives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Talking about "ka-" demonstratives, they are not widely used in Deloria's Dakota Texts either. Here are the frequencies: he' - le' - ka' - 712 : 233 : 20 hena' - lena' - kana' 137 : 30 : 2 he'l - le'l - ka'l 94 : 45 : 35 he'tu - le'tu - ka'tu 7 : 4 : 1 he'cha - le'cha 41 : 0 he'chel - le'chel - ka'khel 101 : 48 : 39 he'checa - le'checa - kakheca 10 : 3 : 0 he'chetu - le'chetu - ka'khetu 39 : 1 : 0 he'chiya - le'chiya - ka'khiya 28 : 6 : 12 I wonder, is "yonder" a frequent word in present-day American English? Connie. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Tue Apr 3 20:41:47 2001 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 14:41:47 -0600 Subject: Lakota demonstratives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think Connie has put his finger on the source of the "problem" here -- there is simply far less reason to use "ka" in narrative than to use the others. Although I don't think "yonder" is a part of the demonstrative system of English, the question he poses is the right one -- when do you need that third degree of distance? I think it's significant that the instances of "kakhiya" are among the most frequent -- one does talk about going _to_ far places more often than about things you can't see or know about _in_ far places. I am reminded of a paper (unpublished) that expressed surprise at an absence of second person verb forms in a body of expository prose, and concluded that the language was losing its second person pronouns. Probably I'm only repeating the obvious here, for which I apologize, but note that "le" and "ka" are highly marked in the sense that they carry a lot of information about the locus of their head; "he" is neutral and the unmarked form in the set. After you've pointed something out with either "le" or "ka", you use "he" afterwards, almost like a definite article. And the number of times that you need to point out something close to you and your interlocutor is much greater than the number of times you point out something that's far from both of you. So I would blame the frequency discrepancy on discourse pragmatics rather than any kind of breakdown in the system. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado Campus Box 295 Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Wablenica wrote: > Talking about "ka-" demonstratives, they are not widely used in Deloria's > Dakota Texts either. > Here are the frequencies: > > he' - le' - ka' - 712 : 233 : 20 > hena' - lena' - kana' 137 : 30 : 2 > he'l - le'l - ka'l 94 : 45 : 35 > he'tu - le'tu - ka'tu 7 : 4 : 1 > he'cha - le'cha 41 : 0 > he'chel - le'chel - ka'khel 101 : 48 : 39 > he'checa - le'checa - kakheca 10 : 3 : 0 > he'chetu - le'chetu - ka'khetu 39 : 1 : 0 > he'chiya - le'chiya - ka'khiya 28 : 6 : 12 > > I wonder, is "yonder" a frequent word in present-day American English? > > Connie. > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From Zylogy at aol.com Tue Apr 3 20:44:49 2001 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 16:44:49 EDT Subject: Lakota demonstratives Message-ID: I've been interested in the structure and function of elaborated demonstrative systems for some time- English used to have a much fuller system which included: whither hither thither whence hence thence what ? that which ? this when ? then where here there etc. was yonder part of the first series? But then the lexicalized be-yond still finds use. Perhaps the establishment of systems of roads and increase in less landmark-based navigation strategies are part of what drives such elaborated spatial/temporal demonstrative systems to simpler series- just as elaborated sets of pronominal or address terms can become reduced once rank and face become less important in social intercourse. Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Tue Apr 3 21:01:22 2001 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 15:01:22 -0600 Subject: Lakota demonstratives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado Campus Box 295 Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Tue, 3 Apr 2001 Zylogy at aol.com wrote: > I've been interested in the structure and function of elaborated > demonstrative systems for some time- English used to have a much fuller > system which included: > > whither hither thither > whence hence thence > what ? that > which ? this > when ? then > where here there I think this English system is not of demonstratives (which have only two positions in English, this and that), but of locatives -- the contrast you show in the others is of interrogative/assertive, not of distance (and I'm curious about the equasion of which and this -- is that historically accurate???). Germanic languages have always been hung up on the difference between location in and motion toward; note that we've replaced "whence" with "where from", "whither" with "where (to)" and "where" with "where at" colloquially, maintaining the semantic differences of the older system with new forms. I'm told that both Japanese and Spanish have a 3-way distinction in demonstratives like the Lakhota one -- is the "furthest" form in those languages distributed equally with the other two? DAvid > > etc. was yonder part of the first series? But then the lexicalized be-yond > still finds use. Perhaps the establishment of systems of roads and increase > in less landmark-based navigation strategies are part of what drives such > elaborated spatial/temporal demonstrative systems to simpler series- just as > elaborated sets of pronominal or address terms can become reduced once rank > and face become less important in social intercourse. > > Jess Tauber > zylogy at aol.com > From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 3 22:30:07 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:30:07 -0500 Subject: Lakota demonstratives Message-ID: >I wonder, is "yonder" a frequent word in present-day American English? It certainly is for me, as a Southerner. But it is regional. And I don't use the adjectival "yon" nor the temporal "yore" at all. bob From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 3 22:48:49 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:48:49 -0500 Subject: Lakota demonstratives Message-ID: whither hither thither whence hence thence what ? that which ? this when ? then where here there >etc. was yonder part of the first series? But then the lexicalized >be-yond still finds use.] I think the earlier system was: here, there, yonder this, that, yon now, then, (yore??) I'm not certain that "yore" was really the third member of the "now-then" series, but it fits in there somewhere. I'd like you to think I know this from reading Shakespeare, but it really began from reading Robin Hood. Are there good Germanic cognates for these? Lots of languages have three terms, but their semantics often doesn't match exactly. In marginal cases I always seemed to use "este, ese, aquel" wrong in Spanish. In some Siouan languages the third term supposedly represents only objects that are out of sight, but in Spanish and English they can just be "farther away" than those objects represented by the second term. Bob Bob Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 3 23:12:00 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:12:00 -0600 Subject: Lakota demonstratives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > On Tue, 3 Apr 2001 Zylogy at aol.com wrote: > > whither hither thither > > whence hence thence > > what *this* that > > which ? ~this~ > > when ? then > > where here there > > I think this English system is not of demonstratives (which have only > two positions in English, this and that), but of locatives -- the > contrast you show in the others is of interrogative/assertive, not of > distance (and I'm curious about the equasion of which and this -- is > that historically accurate???). Germanic languages have always been > hung up on the difference between location in and motion toward; note > that we've replaced "whence" with "where from", "whither" with "where > (to)" and "where" with "where at" colloquially, maintaining the > semantic differences of the older system with new forms. 'This' is the proximal demonstrative. "Which' is, I think, derived from the 'of two' series of demonstratives in PIE, and doesn't associate with 'this' properly speaking. So it's this : that : yon (quite obsolete), and hither : thither : yonder or maybe here : there : yonder or both? Yonder is also obsolete, but more often used for effect. Locatives are often, not always, based on or paired with demonstrative stems. Many languages have considerably more elaborate schemes, but of deixis and of adverbial/adjectival derivation from deictic stems. Siouan strikes me as being about on a part with older IE languages, like Latin. The patterns involved are often spoken of a "tables of correlatives." > I'm told that both Japanese and Spanish have a 3-way distinction > in demonstratives like the Lakhota one -- is the "furthest" form in those > languages distributed equally with the other two? Spanish (I think): Demonstratives: este ese aquel Locative: aqui alli ahi aca alla aya JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 3 23:12:49 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:12:49 -0600 Subject: Lakota demonstratives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Apr 2001 Zylogy at aol.com wrote: > I've been interested in the structure and function of elaborated > demonstrative systems for some time- English used to have a much fuller > system ... OK, I gave up. :-) JEK From pustet at babel.Colorado.EDU Wed Apr 4 00:12:37 2001 From: pustet at babel.Colorado.EDU (regina pustet) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 18:12:37 -0600 Subject: Lakota demonstratives Message-ID: Regarding Connie's message, I have the follwoing frequencies for that part of my Lakota texts that I have sampled: he' : le' : ka' 370 : 164 : 0 hena' : lena' : kana' 154 : 83 : 0 The values match Connie's results for the Deloria texts. Taking just the values for he'/hena' and le'/lena', the ratios are: Deloria he' : le' 75% : 25% hena' : lena' 82% : 18% my texts he' : le' 69% : 31% hena' : lena' 65% : 35% Well, the match is apparently more pronounced for the singular forms. Regarding David's first message: > -- when do you > need that third degree of distance? It all depends on the semantics/pragmatics of the system. Many languages have a three-way distinction in the demonstrative system, and the exact functions of the demonstratives involved do not necessarily overlap, as David, Bob, and John have already pointed out in the discussion. So what if ka' expresses a degree of proximity that at least partly overlaps with the semantic range of English 'that'? Then there would be as much motivation for using ka' in narratives as there is motivation for using 'that' in English. And ka' does occur in the older texts, as Connie's text counts show; it's not exactly frequent, but it's there. Maybe it's just a coincidence that my speakers didn't use ka' -- the next thing to do is ask them if they find the combination of head nound plus ka' acceptable at all. Regina From mosind at yahoo.com Wed Apr 4 03:20:34 2001 From: mosind at yahoo.com (Wablenica) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 07:20:34 +0400 Subject: Lakota demonstratives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of regina pustet Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 4:13 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Lakota demonstratives Regarding Connie's message, I have the follwoing frequencies for that part of my Lakota texts that I have sampled: he' : le' : ka' 370 : 164 : 0 hena' : lena' : kana' 154 : 83 : 0 --------------- Analysis a sample from Bushotter texts (1880s) yielded the following results: he' : le' : ka' 302 : 95 : 2 hena' : lena' : kana' 196 : 34 : 0 (Sorry, I couldn't filter out he' "horn(s); stands" and le' "you-go") The instances of kakhel (33) and kakhiya (8) are rather high. However it is not unprobable that the the system is deteriorating. The Ed Starrs articles of the 90s (4700 words) also have no instance of ka/kana. Perhaps it is to the point: Bushotter (63 texts out of 250) has a couple of instances of ahituNwaN "to look in this direction" verb, together with 26 e'tuNwaN (< ai-tuNwaN) "look in that direction", Deloria (64 texts) has no instance of ahituNwaN: e'tuNwaN is used both in "ekta' e'tuNwe" and "e'l e'tuNwe" cases. Connie. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From voorhis at mb.sympatico.ca Thu Apr 5 18:38:05 2001 From: voorhis at mb.sympatico.ca (voorhis at mb.sympatico.ca) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 13:38:05 -0500 Subject: Lakota demonstratives Message-ID: ROOD DAVID S wrote: > > I think Connie has put his finger on the source of the "problem" here -- > there is simply far less reason to use "ka" in narrative than to use the > others. > .... I would blame the frequency discrepancy on discourse pragmatics > rather than any kind of breakdown in the system. For what it's worth, local (= southern Manitoba) Dakota speakers (not Lakota) have told me that "ka" is always accompanied by pointing, so that it now seems to mean not so much 'that far away' as 'look, that one I'm pointing at'. Such a usage would certainly preclude its appearance in narratives except in quotations. This would seem to be a change in the system, rather than a breakdown. Has anyone encountered this elsewhere? Paul From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 9 07:10:50 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 01:10:50 -0600 Subject: This and That Message-ID: A small aside on Gemranic demonstratives. I thought we didn't do them linguistic justice as we mentioned them in passing. I should warn you all that I am not a Germanist, even if I now venture to play one on the Internet. I consulted two standard grammars of Old English, (1) Bright and (2) Moore and Knott. Interestingly, neither mentioned yon at all. I then checked Webster's Collegiate and Prokosch's Comparative Germanic Grammar with rather more luck. The cognate of yon in German is jener, also the remote demonstrative. I'm not sure how common it is. From the omission of OE geon(d) (ancestor of yon - the g was soft: pronounced as y) in OE grammars it appears that yon has been "obs./dial." for a very long time in English, however, suggesting that it has always been somewhere between unknown and infrequent. It may be only chance that it isn't well known in standard dialects. Note that OE student dictonaries do list geond, in the adverbial/prepositional senses of 'throughout, as far as, all over'. That would interest Wes Jones, I think, who argues that demonstratives and adpositions are also related in Siouan languages. Or perhaps the inspiration comes out of his background as a Germanist. (Not to mention various cognate sets.) The here/there/where forms are from locative adverbs her/thaer/hwaer, which I believe most originally have been case forms of (1) he/heo/hit 'he/she/it', (2) the demonstrative se/seo/that 'that (male)/that (female)/that (neuter)', and (3) the interrogative stems hwa/hwaet 'who/what', respectively. In regard to the second, OE retained the PIE mixture of *s- and *t- (th- in Germanic) demonstratives that occurs in Greek ho/he/ton (*s > h). Modern English has lost the s-forms. These forms had corresponding 'motion towards' and 'motion from' forms, hider/thider/hwider and heonan/thanan/hwanan. Note that forms like hinder 'to behind' and nither 'to beneath' also existed, though in these the d and th are part of the stem. The others have -der corresponding to the -ter in Latin comparatives, etc., I think. These would lead to hinder and nether, of course. Hwaether meant 'which of two'. It looks like yonder might be yond-er, rather than yon-der, though it's hard (for me) to say. It seems that Webster's believes that yore is from gear 'year'. There was, however, an adverb geo 'formerly, of old'. which might be relevant. It seems that gear had reference in OE to both 'year' and 'past'. For that matter, it might also mean 'summer', interesting in connection with Siouan 'winter counts', which, incidentally, it occurs to me, is the English usage for the various chronologies painted on hide used among Dakotan groups. Presumably Dakotan or Plains sign language, general English-Native American pidgin usage underlies this. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 9 17:22:54 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 11:22:54 -0600 Subject: Demonstratives Message-ID: I'm not sure why the list processing software bounced this post from Rory Larson. Let's see if it'll take it from me. >>From rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu Mon Apr 9 09:34:24 2001 I believe "jener" is moderately common in German; it's certainly one of the basic words used in texts to illustrate declensional paradigms. "Dieser" is the proximate form. I can't recall that they have an intermediate form other than the definite article itself used as a demonstrative. Does this sound right? In English, we normally restrict ourselves to a two-level system: "this" = "look toward the speaker"; and "that" = "look away from the speaker". The Siouan languages have a three-level system, e.g. Lakhota: le / he / ka, or Omaha: dhe / she / ga. Could we reasonably gloss these as: le / dhe = "look toward the speaker"; he / she = "look toward the listener, or to an item the listener is familiar with"; ka / ga = "look away from both the speaker and the listener" ? If so, would this be the general rule for three-level demonstrative systems? (If this has all just been discussed, I apologize-- I just got on the list and haven't gone through the archives yet.) Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 9 18:08:31 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 12:08:31 -0600 Subject: Demonstratives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>From rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu Mon Apr 9 09:34:24 2001 > In English, we normally restrict ourselves to a two-level system: > "this" = "look toward the speaker"; and "that" = "look away from > the speaker". The Siouan languages have a three-level system, > e.g. Lakhota: le / he / ka, or Omaha: dhe / she / ga. Could we > reasonably gloss these as: le / dhe = "look toward the speaker"; > he / she = "look toward the listener, or to an item the listener is > familiar with"; ka / ga = "look away from both the speaker and > the listener" ? The 'located relative to you' sense of s^e seems very strong in OP, at least to judge from the glosses in Dorsey. Use of the related s^u form as proclitic with motion verbs to form an intermediate set 'toward you' opposed to the regular 'to here' and 'to there' forms is also fairly pronounced. There are a lot of examples of this for OP because of the number of letters recorded in OP. Note that in the context of these letters s^u definitely can refer to someone out of sight and far away. It is possible to use du and gu with motion verbs, too, but this is much less common, and most tokens of these are as conversational pronominals and directionals, du=akha 'hither-the', du=adi 'this direction', etc. There's some waffling on whether du/gu need -a- before =di. I've also seen gu=di ga hau! '(go) that way IMPERATIVE'. For the comparativists, the expected form dhu corresponding to dhe occurs as a locative suffix, mostly with dhe, e.g., dhedhu=di (often dheu(=di)). The form used in analogy with dhe in the "u" series is du. The regular correspondent of Lakota le would be *ne, not found (dhe occurs instead), and the analogical *nu is also not found (du occurs instead), so du doesn't seem to revert to a more regular or less reduced initial than dhe. There are traces of "o" or "u" vowel demonstratives in other Siouan languages, e.g., Winnebago. The main s^u-motion verb instance that I noticed in fieldword (s^u=dhe 'to go toward you') occurred when there was a power failure at the school that left the interior room full of elders where I was working completely blacked out. The supervisor (WW) of the group stood up and maneuvered through the darkened room to open the door, announcing as he came "s^u'=bdhe! s^u'=bdhe!" or 'I am going to you, I am going to you'. I've also noticed that the s^e demonstrative is common as story enders, e.g., s^e'=naN 'so many wrt you', s^e'=thaN 'so far wrt you'. I take this is a sort of listener orientation or involvements strategy with the implicit references being to the words or incidents of the story and to the progression of the plot or story cycle. This is from Dorsey, primarily, not personal experience. I'm inclined to suggest that in the OP context s^e/s^u is the added axis, as it were, and that the basic spatial references are dhe and ga. I noticed in eliciting demonstratives that Omaha speakers felt no need to map dhe/ga to the English set in my stylized way. I was told flatly that ga was this and dhe was that. I fell back in disarray for the moment and later concluded without having a chance to investigate further that the pragmatics of using the OP demonstratives were sufficiently distinct from those of English that speakers did not see the analogical mapping that linguists did. I had already noticed a similar disjunction between linguistic glossing of motion verbs and speaker glossing in translations. Putting it another way, linguists gloss these terms the way they do because they see some general analogy between this/that and dhe/ga (etc.), but I hypothesize that speakers know that in practical use dhe maps to both this and that and ga to both this and that, depending on the context and lack any presumption, for example, that dhe is primarily or prototypically equivalent to this. Or, on the other hand, it might have been a shifter problem: my 'this' was the speaker's ga. > If so, would this be the general rule for three-level demonstrative > systems? (If this has all just been discussed, I apologize-- I just > got on the list and haven't gone through the archives yet.) It's been alluded to in passing only. Actually the basis distinctions among terms in demonstrative sets with more than one terms is fairly variable, though proximal vs. distal is common for two terms. A third, more distal term might involve person, distance, visibility, time, death, or other factors. I'm afraid I'm not actually able to suggest any typological studies. Anyone? From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Tue Apr 10 08:10:34 2001 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 03:10:34 -0500 Subject: Demonstratives Message-ID: I can offer only a few anectodal examples of uses of gu- I've recently heard in Ponca. I'm told that the phrase "Guda, guda, guda!" (roughly, "Watch out! Get out of the way!") is very useful in shinny games. Also, recently at a sermon by the minister of the Ponca Holiness Church, in which he interspersed Ponca with English, he addressed the devil with the command, "Gudiha maNdhiNga!" (translated later for me by the minister as "Get the hell out of here!"). By the way, I happened to hear at the same sermon a seemingly rare example of the second person form addressed to God, "Egis^e...." ("That's what you've said...."), the first person form egiphe ("Thus I said...") being more common in my experience. S^aN ("enough, finished") is often used to end prayers or talks, but so far I haven't heard s^enaN or s^edhaN. However, very little spoken Ponca is heard nowadays in Oklahoma, which is why you'll have to forgive me if I'm rhapsodizing about the few phrases that I do hear in public speeches or conversations! Kathy Shea ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 1:08 PM Subject: Re: Demonstratives > >From rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu Mon Apr 9 09:34:24 2001 > > In English, we normally restrict ourselves to a two-level system: > > "this" = "look toward the speaker"; and "that" = "look away from > > the speaker". The Siouan languages have a three-level system, > > e.g. Lakhota: le / he / ka, or Omaha: dhe / she / ga. Could we > > reasonably gloss these as: le / dhe = "look toward the speaker"; > > he / she = "look toward the listener, or to an item the listener is > > familiar with"; ka / ga = "look away from both the speaker and > > the listener" ? > > The 'located relative to you' sense of s^e seems very strong in OP, at > least to judge from the glosses in Dorsey. Use of the related s^u form as > proclitic with motion verbs to form an intermediate set 'toward you' > opposed to the regular 'to here' and 'to there' forms is also fairly > pronounced. There are a lot of examples of this for OP because of the > number of letters recorded in OP. Note that in the context of these > letters s^u definitely can refer to someone out of sight and far away. > It is possible to use du and gu with motion verbs, too, but this is much > less common, and most tokens of these are as conversational pronominals > and directionals, du=akha 'hither-the', du=adi 'this direction', etc. > There's some waffling on whether du/gu need -a- before =di. I've also > seen gu=di ga hau! '(go) that way IMPERATIVE'. > > For the comparativists, the expected form dhu corresponding to dhe occurs > as a locative suffix, mostly with dhe, e.g., dhedhu=di (often dheu(=di)). > The form used in analogy with dhe in the "u" series is du. The regular > correspondent of Lakota le would be *ne, not found (dhe occurs instead), > and the analogical *nu is also not found (du occurs instead), so du > doesn't seem to revert to a more regular or less reduced initial than dhe. > There are traces of "o" or "u" vowel demonstratives in other Siouan > languages, e.g., Winnebago. > > The main s^u-motion verb instance that I noticed in fieldword (s^u=dhe 'to > go toward you') occurred when there was a power failure at the school that > left the interior room full of elders where I was working completely > blacked out. The supervisor (WW) of the group stood up and maneuvered > through the darkened room to open the door, announcing as he came > "s^u'=bdhe! s^u'=bdhe!" or 'I am going to you, I am going to you'. > > I've also noticed that the s^e demonstrative is common as story enders, > e.g., s^e'=naN 'so many wrt you', s^e'=thaN 'so far wrt you'. I take this > is a sort of listener orientation or involvements strategy with the > implicit references being to the words or incidents of the story and to > the progression of the plot or story cycle. This is from Dorsey, > primarily, not personal experience. > > I'm inclined to suggest that in the OP context s^e/s^u is the added > axis, as it were, and that the basic spatial references are dhe and ga. > > I noticed in eliciting demonstratives that Omaha speakers felt no need to > map dhe/ga to the English set in my stylized way. I was told flatly that > ga was this and dhe was that. I fell back in disarray for the moment and > later concluded without having a chance to investigate further that the > pragmatics of using the OP demonstratives were sufficiently distinct from > those of English that speakers did not see the analogical mapping that > linguists did. I had already noticed a similar disjunction between > linguistic glossing of motion verbs and speaker glossing in translations. > Putting it another way, linguists gloss these terms the way they do > because they see some general analogy between this/that and dhe/ga (etc.), > but I hypothesize that speakers know that in practical use dhe maps to > both this and that and ga to both this and that, depending on the context > and lack any presumption, for example, that dhe is primarily or > prototypically equivalent to this. > > Or, on the other hand, it might have been a shifter problem: my 'this' > was the speaker's ga. > > > If so, would this be the general rule for three-level demonstrative > > systems? (If this has all just been discussed, I apologize-- I just > > got on the list and haven't gone through the archives yet.) > > It's been alluded to in passing only. Actually the basis distinctions > among terms in demonstrative sets with more than one terms is fairly > variable, though proximal vs. distal is common for two terms. A third, > more distal term might involve person, distance, visibility, time, death, > or other factors. I'm afraid I'm not actually able to suggest any > typological studies. Anyone? > From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Tue Apr 10 08:39:25 2001 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 03:39:25 -0500 Subject: Lakota demonstratives Message-ID: > > I'm told that both Japanese and Spanish have a 3-way distinction > > in demonstratives like the Lakhota one -- is the "furthest" form in those > > languages distributed equally with the other two? > > Spanish (I think): > > Demonstratives: este ese aquel > Locative: aqui alli ahi > aca alla aya > > JEK I checked with a native speaker of Mexican Spanish, Ivonne Heinz, who is a graduate student in linguistics here at the University of Kansas. She seems to have a two-way system. She says that she uses both aqui and ahi frequently and alli very infrequently, all referring to a location. (She said she thinks she uses alli in response to questions, when someone asks about something specific.) She uses aca and alla for motion towards a location and says that aya doesn't exist as far as she knows. (I'm not sure that there would be a difference in pronunciation anyway, at least in Mexican Spanish, between alla and aya.) Aqui and aca indicate, respectively, location at and motion towards a nearby place, and ahi and alla indicate, respectively, location at and motion towards a distant place. Kathy Shea From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu Tue Apr 10 19:51:34 2001 From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:51:34 -0500 Subject: Sacred Syllable Message-ID: I think this is something of interest that I have not found elsewhere: In battle when a great feat is accomplished, and the "holiness" of the event requires a cessation of hostilities out of respect, a "holy syllable" is uttered -- gu. When anyone says gu, the battle comes to an abrupt end. I have found reference to this in more than one Winnebago story. Has anyone heard of this in other Siouan traditions? Does anyone have an idea of the origin of this word in that role? From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Apr 11 18:37:06 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:37:06 -0500 Subject: This and That Message-ID: This Germanic sideline has been very interesting. Most of you may be familiar with _The American Heritage Dictionary of Indo-European Roots_, but if not, plunk down the $16 or so for the new (pb) edition and get sucked in. It's an offshoot of the big _Amer. Her. Dict._ (now in 4th ed.), so it stresses the Germanic roots (and in fact cites only roots with reflexes in Eng.), but it's loaded with fascinating general IE stuff. The big dict., incidentally, is an excellent etymological resource. It and the Random House Unabridged (along with Onions' _Oxf. Dict. of Eng. Etym._) are my favorites for etymology. The OED leaves much to be desired as to etym., but that is being rectified in spades in the present revision. And don't forget the OED Online (http://www.oed.com/) which is being updated quarterly. Most universities have (or should have!) institutional subscriptions. From rankin at ku.edu Wed Apr 11 19:30:06 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:30:06 -0500 Subject: This and That Message-ID: Q. Is this a revised edition or just reprint (since I have an earlier version)?? Bob > This Germanic sideline has been very interesting. Most of you may be > familiar with _The American Heritage Dictionary of > Indo-European Roots_, > but if not, plunk down the $16 or so for the new (pb) edition and get > sucked in.... From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Apr 11 20:02:23 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:02:23 -0500 Subject: This and That Message-ID: > Q. Is this a revised edition or just reprint (since I have an earlier > version)?? Yes, it's the new (2d) ed. published in 2000, "fully revised and updated" (149 pp. compared with 113). One major improvement is in the treatment of laryngeals. Alan From jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu Thu Apr 12 20:24:31 2001 From: jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu (John P. Boyle) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 14:24:31 -0600 Subject: Siouan and Caddoan Conference Message-ID: >John -- > I'm starting to think about the Siouan/Caddoan conference and a >possible presentation, along with attempts to encourage some of my >students to participate. Do you have any more conference details yet -- >e.g.should we plan to arrive Thurs. evening instead of Fri. morning, can >we plan on going away Sunday morning rather than Sat. afternoon/evening >(Sat night stay for plane fares), will we be in one place more or less >all the time, or would a rental car be a useful investment, etc.? > Looking forward to it -- > Best, > David Dear Everyone, David sent me this e-mail and I thought that I'd best answer to the entire list just in case others had been wondering the same thing. The conference is scheduled for June 15-16 (Friday and Saturday). If people interested in coming could let me know if they would like to give a paper at the conference that would help. I think that the conference will take up most of the two days, as usual. I'd recommend getting into Chicago on Thursday night and leaving on Sunday. That would be the most optimal. However, if you need to leave Saturday night that will probably work as well. I was wondering if people might like to go out to dinner somewhere either Friday or Saturday night? As far as places to stay in and around the University there are three: The Wooded Isle - This is an apartment complex that rents out studios and one bedrooms to visiting people. Their phone number is 773-288-5578 and they are located at 5750 South Stony island Ave. It is very close to the University and it would be the place that I would recommend first. The drawback is that they only have nine rooms. The I-House (International House) - This is a student dorm that rents out rooms to visiting students (as well as others). It is cheap and very close to the conference site, however it is rather Spartan. The phone number is 773-753-2270 and it is located at 1414 East 59th Street. The Ramada Inn - This is a Ramada Inn (what more can I say). It is located at 4900 South Lake Shore Drive and the phone number is 773-288-5800. It is quite a walk from the University and if you stay there I would recommend renting a car. Hyde Park also has about three Bed and Breakfasts. If you're interested let me know and I'll get the information to you. Renting a car is optional but it is probably a good idea, especially if there is a group of you. The conference will take place at the University of Chicago and if we want to go someplace we can either car pool or take public transportation. Cab rides from O'Hare to the University cost about $40.00 with tip and from Midway airport to the University the cost is about $20.00 with tip. Chicago also has a good public transportation system with buses and trains that can get you almost anywhere. Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions. I encourage everyone to present a paper and to encourage their students to present papers. I'll put out a more official call around April 30 (CLS is next week and that is going to keep me busy until then). I'd like at least a paper title and possibly a short abstract. The conference is being cosponsored by CLS (the Chicago Linguistic Society) and the Native American Student Association. I don't quite know what that entails yet but we here at Chicago are really looking forward to it. If anyone has any questions please let me know. Best wishes, John P. Boyle Department of Linguistics University of Chicago From rankin at ku.edu Fri Apr 13 00:03:12 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 19:03:12 -0500 Subject: Siouan demonstratives. Message-ID: All, I was going through some of my old computer files and, since we were talking about the deictic system in several of the languages, thought I'd pass along this handout I did for a course on the Siouan language family I taught here at KU several years back. I hope the Colorado list server accepts attachments. The attachment is a microsoft Word for Windows file using John Koontz' Siouan SIL-Doulos font for the PC. I will try to send it in .rtf format. That way it may be possible for those of you using MAC's to read it. For those who cannot, I apologize; this is the best I can do. As you'll see, the file just gives some cognate sets. It does not cover the things we've been talking about on the list -- usage and nuances of meaning. I hope it will stimulate more discussion. Bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: deictic2.rtf Type: application/octet-stream Size: 10828 bytes Desc: not available URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Apr 15 00:51:52 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 18:51:52 -0600 Subject: Lakota demonstratives In-Reply-To: <001801c0c199$c0901900$220aed81@9afl3> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Apr 2001, Kathleen Shea wrote: > > Spanish (I think): > > > > Demonstratives: este ese aquel > > Locative: aqui alli ahi Based on dictionary definitins, I seem to have gotten alli and ahi reversed! It should be: este ese aquel aqui ahi alli aca ? alla I can't find any trace of *aya. (I think it was a ghost doublet of alla, as Kathy Shea more or less suggested politely.) I can't find any trace of a form -a corresponding to ahi. The directional sense of alla is apparently fairly weak. It is said to be more remote or less specific than alli. Note that for many purposes este and aquel are normally paired, e.g., as 'the latter' vs. 'the former'. Bringing things back to Native American languages, there is comparative summary of 'Inacessible and Absentative Inflections in Algonquian' by David Pentland in Algonquian and Iroquoian Linguistics 25.3:25-26 (2000). These are somewhat comparable to the remote category of demonstratives and can be paired with demonstratives. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Apr 15 01:00:53 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 19:00:53 -0600 Subject: Sacred Syllable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Apr 2001, Richard L. Dieterle wrote: > I think this is something of interest that I have not found elsewhere: > In battle when a great feat is accomplished, and the "holiness" of the > event requires a cessation of hostilities out of respect, a "holy > syllable" is uttered -- gu. When anyone says gu, the battle comes to > an abrupt end. I have found reference to this in more than one > Winnebago story. Has anyone heard of this in other Siouan traditions? > Does anyone have an idea of the origin of this word in that role? I haven't seen anything like this mentioned in an Omaha or Ponca context. Dorsey's texts include various "ku" representing khu or kku referring to things like the sound of a bow, a gun, drumming, a whirr of wings, and so on. There is one gu(u) representing the sound of many feet striking the ground in a charge. Apart from this, so far as I am aware, there are just cases of demonstrative gu. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Apr 15 02:48:20 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 20:48:20 -0600 Subject: Lakota demonstratives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Wablenica wrote: > Talking about "ka-" demonstratives, they are not widely used in > Deloria's Dakota Texts either. Here are the frequencies: I wanted to see if I could say anything about demonstrative statistics in Omaha-Ponca easily. The answer is, probably not, since dhe is homophonous with 'to go' and the causative, while ga is homophonous with the male imperative and '(third person) said as follows', and all are widely used in clitic complexes of considerable length, However, I do have a list of white-space-delimited character strings form Dorsey, and perusing the lists there it looks like the ratios could be several hundred isolated dhe to several tens of isolated s^e to a handful of isolated ga in about 800 pages of text and free translation. That is with forms not in clitic complexes. There are c. 1000 accented ga, but they all seem to be from ga'=bi=ama 'he said as follows'. Actually, checking the texts, it looks like most of the isolated ga are not the demonstrative. But there are c. 20 instances of ga'=ama 'that' + 'the moving or plural', for example. As far as clitic complex forms, here are over 100 intances of s^e=thaN 'so far', though only some of them are at the end of texts. S^e'=thaN is particularly common ending texts from Francis LaFlesche and Mary LaFlesche, and occurs in some othe texts as well. S^e=na 'so many', glossed 'enough', occurs in some letters. Essentially all instances of du/s^u/gu are in clitic complexes. There are only a couple dozen du and gu cases. On the other hand, there are hundreds of cases of s^u- proclitic to motion verbs, e.g., c. 75 of s^u=bdhe 'I go to you' alone and over 230 of s^u=dhe 'he goes to you'. This is without counting the proximate form sh=adha=i of the latter. There are numerous cases of e and e= of course. I checked to see what Dorsey did with yonder, and it seems that he regularly uses this to gloss s^e=hi and s^e=dhu, to derivatives of s^e. The first uses =hi to indicate a place a bit further away than s^e. The second seems to be a locative. (I remember that dhe=(dh)u was common in the speech of CW, the man I worked with most.) Dorsey also uses yonder in glossing s^u=gi 'coming to you', as in 'yonder comes so-and-so'. Dorsey does not use yon to gloss ga. He does once gloss ga=hi= as 'that ... out of sight'. JEK From ioway at earthlink.net Sun Apr 15 03:28:07 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 21:28:07 -0600 Subject: Chiwere Popular Orthography Message-ID: I have a question for the folks working with Chiwere. I am running into real difficulty with coming up with an orthography that is acceptable to the speaking community. There is an absolute resistance to a standard orthography. I just got back from Hawaii and learned how the missionaries decided to standardize the v/w sounds as w, and the t/k sounds as k. They used to spell Hawaiian in so many different ways it was a real mess. I also learned that much was done to alter the grammar (on Niihau they still speak an old form, sounds and grammar, very different from the revitalized version of Hawaiian). Whatever you say about the accuracy of the missionaries' system, it certainly has helped in its standardization, as far as the revitalization of the past couple of decades. Now Chiwere is in such an awful state that I think we need to look at a similar standardization. Perhaps this will not work perfectly as far as the scholarly system, but it must be acceptable to the community or it will not be used. I for one feel the ideal system is one symbol for one sound, and to keep to meaningful sounds rather than alternative pronunciations. I also really don't dig the awful hyphenation that many in the community keep using (the Lewis and Clark look). The community hates the use of the x. They totally cannot abide such things as eths and thetas. So what ideas do you have? For popular use? Jimm and Lila had a nice system, but the community hated such things as using "x" for the "ach" sound. should it be the old "th" vs "dh" thing? but of course that gets back to the "one symbol for one sound" thing. I'm just flumboozled, and several of us are trying to figure this out. Bob? John? Jimm? Louanna? -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From Zylogy at aol.com Sun Apr 15 14:06:29 2001 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 10:06:29 EDT Subject: Lakota demonstratives Message-ID: It certainly would be nice if there were a compendium/database somewere on the web of various closed-class items across languages, the way there are for numeral sets. Typological databases don't usually cut it here. Its a finite set, even if large. A concerted effort, perhaps as a classroom assignment by many universities. Oh, well, one can dream. Many demonstrative sets exhibit what I believe to be secondary paradigmaticity of an iconic oppositional nature- probably why one sees the *same* sub-elements used again and again, not as a survival from some protohuman language, but as an active development in the life of a language. Some oppositions presumably simply suggest themselves given antecedent morphemes and their semantics, and given a variety of phonological paths to choose from, more often than not they will change in the direction that yields such oppositions. It would, therefore, be interesting to catalogue the particular forms of demonstratives versus their functions and see whether such relations as suggested above hold statistically, beyond what can be accounted for as historical residue. Demonstration of such secondary iconicity wouldn't very likely sit well with lumpers, especially those with a vested interest in long-range genetic issues. Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu Mon Apr 16 02:00:40 2001 From: are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu (Ardis R Eschenberg) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 22:00:40 -0400 Subject: Sacred Syllable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I remember an Omaha text where the earth says 'ku'' as it brings forth some rocks. -Ardis From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 16 14:14:17 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 08:14:17 -0600 Subject: Sacred Syllable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Apr 2001, Ardis R Eschenberg wrote: > I remember an Omaha text where the earth says 'ku'' as it brings forth > some rocks. Oops! Thanks! I saw that in the search, and then forgot it when I made the summary. Wouldn't you know I'd forget the most interesting case ... -- And, incidentally, Winnebago gu(u) could correspond historically to either Omaha-Ponca gu(u) or khu(u). Of course, other things could correspond if it wasn't a case of inheritence. There's another interesting kind of exclamation I've seen mentioned. I think it was Pond who reported a series of Dakota exclamations which he said signified the kind of game hunters had secured. I think the example he gave was a syllable signifying the killing of a bear. I don't recall the specific form, but it struck me as immitative of the bear's vocalizations, rather than, say, a word for 'bear'. From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 16 14:25:18 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:25:18 -0500 Subject: Sacred Syllable Message-ID: > ... Omaha text where the earth says 'ku'' as it brings forth > some rocks. ORdinarily this couldn't be related to Winnebago /gu/ since Omaha /u/ is invariably from /o/ (and actually pronounced [o] about half the time in my Omaha notes from ca. 1973). Nor can Winnebago /g/ be related to Omaha (/kk/), only to Omaha /g/. So the Omaha reflex for the WI sacred syllable ought to be /gi/ if no sound symbolism is involved. I haven't run across anything suggestive in my own work, sorry to say. In this particular term though, I think probably is the standard root for 'make a hollow sound' that is found in 'drum, box, cucurbit, etc. Kind of makes sense that the earth might rumble when coughing up rocks. Winnebago should have /ko-/ for that root. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 16 14:44:24 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 08:44:24 -0600 Subject: Chiwere Popular Orthography In-Reply-To: <3AD91545.F2B1015@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Apr 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > I am running into real difficulty with coming up with an orthography that is > acceptable to the speaking community. There is an absolute resistance to a > standard orthography. I may be wrong, but I think Lance means standard in the sense of using standard choices of graphs, rather than representing a language in a consistent way. The former meaning (typical choice of letters) can be a more stringent version of the latter (same choice of letter for a given sound in all writing), though the latter is usually what linguists mean by a standard orthography > ... The community hates the use of the x. They totally cannot abide > such things as eths and thetas. > > So what ideas do you have? For popular use? Jimm and Lila had a nice system, > but the community hated such things as using "x" for the "ach" sound. >>From a linguistic point of view, if the x sound were consistently written with some other letter or letter combination than x, e.g., ch, as in German, that would be OK, as long as ch wasn't also being used for the sound of - well, ch - as in the word for buffalo. Another alternative sometimes used, for example, in transcribing Russian, is kh. Russian proper, of course, uses a Cyrillic letter that is recognizably an x. There is a certain tradition in favor of x for this sound, and I suspect that most opposition to this would stem from a feeling that English use of x for "ks" is uniquely "right" and other uses of x are "wrong." > should it be the old "th" vs "dh" thing? but of course that gets back to the > "one symbol for one sound" thing. I'm just flumboozled, and several of us are > trying to figure this out. Bob? John? Jimm? Louanna? I think this refers to whether th represents the theta sound or an aspirated t. This can be a problem even in languages where there isn't any theta (or edh) sound, again because of interference from English usage. I can understand people feeling uncomfortable with what for them would be a novel orthographic tradition. They're always a bit of a wrench. However, English spelling is truely inadequate for representing a Siouan language, and some concessions have to be made. And, I've experienced this wrench so often myself that I tend to have a "get over it" attitude to it. The real issues are representing the sounds of the language with sufficient insight to permit working with it at all, and doing so in a way that isn't too impossible to write or key. When I consider writing sh for s^ (s-hacek) I do so because I suspect s^ isn't conveniently available in people's fonts, not because I think sh is better or easier to remember. In fact, there are Siouan languages where h occurs after s, so that sh for s^ simply doesn't work. I think Ioway-Otoe-Missouria is not one of these languages, anyway! John From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 16 14:57:38 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 08:57:38 -0600 Subject: Sacred Syllable In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A441487@skylark.mail.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > ORdinarily this couldn't be related to Winnebago /gu/ since Omaha /u/ is > invariably from /o/ (and actually pronounced [o] about half the time in my > Omaha notes from ca. 1973). Nor can Winnebago /g/ be related to Omaha > (/kk/), only to Omaha /g/. So the Omaha reflex for the WI sacred syllable > ought to be /gi/ if no sound symbolism is involved. I haven't run across > anything suggestive in my own work, sorry to say. I lost track of the vowel correspondence. Apologies again. It would be potentially possible for a Winnebago g to match an OP kk if the match was due to, say, borrowing. That said, I wouldn't ordinarily expect that to be the case. Speakers of Siouan languages in the old days seem to have had a fairly accurate appreciation of the regular correspondences. Very occasionally they mismatched consonants in obvious borrowings. Mismatched vowels (Wi u : OP u) are a bit more common in borrowings, I think, though, again, usually speakers got it right. > In this particular term though, I think probably is the standard root > for 'make a hollow sound' that is found in 'drum, box, cucurbit, etc. Kind > of makes sense that the earth might rumble when coughing up rocks. Winnebago > should have /ko-/ for that root. I thought about the 'hollow sound' sense and decided that for 'sound of gun', 'sound of bow', 'whirring noise', etc., it was probably something else. I remember making something very much like "ku" (or khU - voiceless - or kyU) to represent the sound of gun myself, as a child. So I omitted examples of 'hollow sound' from catalog deliberately. However, they were pretty uniformly lexicalized to the extent of having an instrumental prefix of some sort and so were fairly distinguishable from the exclamatory set. The 'manifestation of rock' examples might be 'hollow sound' or they might be 'sound of shooting or rushing or whirring'. It's hard to say with only textual evidence. I assumed the latter, but then forgot to include the 'manifestation of rock' in my catalog. JEK From ioway at earthlink.net Mon Apr 16 15:16:04 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:16:04 -0600 Subject: Sacred Syllable Message-ID: And IO k'o for "thunder (rumbling)" Lance "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: > > ... Omaha text where the earth says 'ku'' as it brings forth > > some rocks. > > ORdinarily this couldn't be related to Winnebago /gu/ since Omaha /u/ is > invariably from /o/ (and actually pronounced [o] about half the time in my > Omaha notes from ca. 1973). Nor can Winnebago /g/ be related to Omaha > (/kk/), only to Omaha /g/. So the Omaha reflex for the WI sacred syllable > ought to be /gi/ if no sound symbolism is involved. I haven't run across > anything suggestive in my own work, sorry to say. > > In this particular term though, I think probably is the standard root > for 'make a hollow sound' that is found in 'drum, box, cucurbit, etc. Kind > of makes sense that the earth might rumble when coughing up rocks. Winnebago > should have /ko-/ for that root. > > Bob -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From ioway at earthlink.net Mon Apr 16 15:18:26 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:18:26 -0600 Subject: Fonts Message-ID: This should be an easy one for you guys. Where can I download the type of fonts used in the Smithsonian Handbook for Mac? (the 'ng' symbol etc) -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From ioway at earthlink.net Mon Apr 16 15:14:33 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:14:33 -0600 Subject: Ch.Orthography/ Word for "Chief", "Family" Message-ID: Thanks John.. It bears much thought.. but if Cree and Cherokee can use a syllabary and the community get used to it, why not linguistic symbols? The problem comes in because almost all IO today learned to speak/write English before IO (or at the same time). And if you ask four IO to spell Baxoje, you will get six different answers! The reason I am asking this is that I am working on a coloring book with no English, just the Chiwere word and the line drawing for little kids in my family beginning to learn a VERY basic vocabulary of culturally important terms (nouns, adjectives, location, verbs). Just an experiment right now. This reminds me: wasn't there a list of the most common/necessary terms (100? 200?) that a linguist developed when learning any language? (like run, hot, eat, etc) A couple of other questions: There seem to be two Chiwere words/variants for "chief." 1. Kihega/Gaxige/Kahegi etc (Ioway names that translate as 'chief'; I also think it relates to some other Siouan names for 'chief' -in Osage for example?) 2. Wangegihi etc (fr. Wange 'man' + gi 'towards something' + hi 'to cause' = 'Causes a person to go [do? something]', relating to the authority of a chief Also there seem to be different words for 'family' 1. Gratogre (really 'relatives' - gra 'to be related/loved'+togre 'together') 2. Chuyu (could this be 'household'? fr. Chi 'house' + uyu 'to live in') 3. And of course wodi/wori, 'relative/relations' And finally, when we are talking about kinship, for IO we usually use 'hina' for 'mother' (the word you use to address 'mom').. but there is also 'ihun' for 'his/her mother' etc. (the word used to refer to a 'mother') And for father, 'hinka' but his/her is either anje/nanje. If I was doing an illustration of 'mother' or 'father' which should I pick? Lance Koontz John E wrote: > On Sat, 14 Apr 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > > I am running into real difficulty with coming up with an orthography that is > > acceptable to the speaking community. There is an absolute resistance to a > > standard orthography. > > I may be wrong, but I think Lance means standard in the sense of using > standard choices of graphs, rather than representing a language in a > consistent way. The former meaning (typical choice of letters) can be a > more stringent version of the latter (same choice of letter for a given > sound in all writing), though the latter is usually what linguists mean by > a standard orthography > > > ... The community hates the use of the x. They totally cannot abide > > such things as eths and thetas. > > > > So what ideas do you have? For popular use? Jimm and Lila had a nice system, > > but the community hated such things as using "x" for the "ach" sound. > > >From a linguistic point of view, if the x sound were consistently written > with some other letter or letter combination than x, e.g., ch, as in > German, that would be OK, as long as ch wasn't also being used for the > sound of - well, ch - as in the word for buffalo. Another alternative > sometimes used, for example, in transcribing Russian, is kh. Russian > proper, of course, uses a Cyrillic letter that is recognizably an x. > > There is a certain tradition in favor of x for this sound, and I suspect > that most opposition to this would stem from a feeling that English use of > x for "ks" is uniquely "right" and other uses of x are "wrong." > > > should it be the old "th" vs "dh" thing? but of course that gets back to the > > "one symbol for one sound" thing. I'm just flumboozled, and several of us are > > trying to figure this out. Bob? John? Jimm? Louanna? > > I think this refers to whether th represents the theta sound or an > aspirated t. This can be a problem even in languages where there isn't > any theta (or edh) sound, again because of interference from English > usage. > > I can understand people feeling uncomfortable with what for them would be > a novel orthographic tradition. They're always a bit of a wrench. > However, English spelling is truely inadequate for representing a Siouan > language, and some concessions have to be made. And, I've experienced > this wrench so often myself that I tend to have a "get over it" attitude > to it. The real issues are representing the sounds of the language with > sufficient insight to permit working with it at all, and doing so in a way > that isn't too impossible to write or key. When I consider writing sh for > s^ (s-hacek) I do so because I suspect s^ isn't conveniently available in > people's fonts, not because I think sh is better or easier to remember. In > fact, there are Siouan languages where h occurs after s, so that sh for s^ > simply doesn't work. I think Ioway-Otoe-Missouria is not one of these > languages, anyway! > > John -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 16 16:05:50 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:05:50 -0500 Subject: FW: Error Condition Re: RE: Chiwere Popular Orthography Message-ID: If you go down far enough, you'll find my message. Bob -----Original Message----- From: listproc at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:listproc at lists.colorado.edu] Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 11:02 AM To: rankin at KU.EDU Subject: Error Condition Re: RE: Chiwere Popular Orthography Dear user, every time you send email to list SIOUAN the system analyzes the first line of your message in order to catch misdirected requests. It appears that the first line in your message may have been such a request: JOIN THE (ALREADY VERY LARGE) CLUB! I SYMPATHIZE AND HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM The first word, "JOIN", matches one of ListProc's command words, and as a result your mail was not distributed to the list. If your intent was to send a request please resend it to the command processor listproc at lists.Colorado.EDU (not siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU). If your intent was to post a message to this list please rephrase the first line of your message so that it does not look like a request and resubmit it to siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU, and please accept our apologies for the inconvenience. If you need further assistance please contact the owner(s) john.koontz at colorado.edu . Your entire message is copied below. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >>From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 16 10:01:59 2001 Received: from duck.mail.ukans.edu (duck.mail.ukans.edu [129.237.35.84]) by hooch.colorado.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/ITS-5.0/standard) with ESMTP id KAA14292 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:01:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: by duck.mail.ukans.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <2Y429B1C>; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:01:58 -0500 Message-ID: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A44148C at skylark.mail.ukans.edu> From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Chiwere Popular Orthography Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:01:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > I am running into real difficulty with coming up with an > orthography that is > acceptable to the speaking community. There is an absolute > resistance to a > standard orthography. Join the (already very large) club! I sympathize and have the same problem with Kaws who desperately want to stick with English spelling conventions. It is a universal problem and one to which I have no solution. If there are essentially no native speakers, it probably won't be possible to get people to agree. Period. No matter what you do, folks will revert to their own private spellings to "clarify" what you give them. I happen to be one of those curmudgeonly guys who thinks that "teacher knows best." And as the author of your materials, you are in a strong position to be a little insistent. It's obvious that people are going to want to be able to use Jimm's dictionary, so I think that is the system I'd use myself. Linguists use X for the velar fricative because the Greeks use it that way, and when linguists ran out of Roman letters, they went to the Greek alphabet for more symbols. You can try to get agreement from your users, but I have to be pessimistic about your chances. When we are taught Spanish in high school, we don't get a choice about how to spell [x]. They just tell us we're gonna have to learn that it's spelled with most of the time and in front of i or e. Sometimes you just have to try to use your influence to impose a solution. Good luck! Bob From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 16 15:36:18 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:36:18 -0500 Subject: Sacred Syllable Message-ID: > In this particular term though, I think probably is > the standard root > for 'make a hollow sound' that is found in 'drum, box, > cucurbit, etc. Kind > of makes sense that the earth might rumble when coughing up > rocks. Winnebago > should have /ko-/ for that root. ...as indeed it does. Miner (1984) has kook 'box, barrel', kookox 'be noisy', koox 'make noise' and various derivatives. And there is k?oo 'thunder' with glottalization. I think if Ardis is right about equating those Omaha/Winnebago forms, that sound symbolism would be the thing to appeal to here. bob From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Apr 16 17:56:43 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 12:56:43 -0500 Subject: Fonts Message-ID: > Where can I download the type of fonts > used in the Smithsonian Handbook for Mac? (the 'ng' symbol etc) Lance, Sounds like you essentially want an IPA font. (The true Unicode fonts are huge, over 20MB.) Check out: http://www2.arts.gla.ac.uk/IPA/ipafonts.html http://www.sil.org/computing/fonts/encore.html http://www.hclrss.demon.co.uk/unicode/fonts_mac.html Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 16 17:53:35 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:53:35 -0600 Subject: Ch.Orthography/ Word for "Chief", "Family" In-Reply-To: <3ADB0C55.B7288FB@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > Thanks John.. It bears much thought.. but if Cree and Cherokee can use > a syllabary and the community get used to it, why not linguistic > symbols? The two syllabaries have had the sociological advantage of being propagated among native speakers by native speakers as native systems. Of course, (a) the Cree syllabary isn't really of native origin, though exclusively used in such contexts, and (b) syllaries are much more inconvenient than any alphabetic system. > The problem comes in because almost all IO today learned to > speak/write English before IO (or at the same time). And if you ask > four IO to spell Baxoje, you will get six different answers! Very true, though learning English orthography is not equivalent to learning other orthographies and it also teaches some bad practices due to the peculiar inadequacies of English orthography. If an English speaker sets out to learn Spanish they have to learn the Spanish orthgraphy, like it or not. If they tackle Dakotan they have to learn at least one, probably several, systems for the Dakotan dialect they decide on. They may even have to learn a bit about several dialects, since the important references have in several different dialects. > The reason I am asking this is that I am working on a coloring book > with no English, just the Chiwere word and the line drawing for little > kids in my family beginning to learn a VERY basic vocabulary of > culturally important terms (nouns, adjectives, location, verbs). Just > an experiment right now. I tend to agree with Bob. You'll have to pronounce the words for the kids anyway. If anyone complains about the x's and what not, you should just tell them it's not English and some broadening of the mind may be required. A colleague used to tell users "getting the answer to that requires an out-of-net experience." This requires an out-of-English experience. > This reminds me: wasn't there a list of the most common/necessary > terms (100? 200?) that a linguist developed when learning any > language? (like run, hot, eat, etc) Not really. There's a supposedly 'Basic" vocabulary list for English, but it's very peculiar to English. There are Swadesh's 100 word and 200 word lists, but these are intended to be stable or basic vocabulary for historical comparisons, not a bare minimum for conversation. In these lists there are a fair number of egregious Indo-European or European dependencies in the vocabulary as well as Western European dependencies in the implicit assumptions about the grammar. I have also seen a specialized South East Asian version of this list (CALMSEA), but it has its own dependencies and is again intended to support comparisons, not conversation. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 16 18:01:15 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 12:01:15 -0600 Subject: ... Word for "Chief" ... In-Reply-To: <3ADB0C55.B7288FB@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > There seem to be two Chiwere words/variants for "chief." > 1. Kihega/Gaxige/Kahegi etc (Ioway names that translate as 'chief'; I > also think it relates to some other Siouan names for 'chief' -in Osage > for example?) The sets for 'chief' are pretty irregular and are probably loans from somewhere. At one point Allan Taylor suggested Spanish Cacique (from a South American source, I think). The OP root is gahige (~ hagi) if I recall. > 2. Wangegihi etc (fr. Wange 'man' + gi 'towards something' + hi 'to > cause' = 'Causes a person to go [do? something]', relating to the > authority of a chief You could render gihi as 'send(er)'. The concept of 'chief' is fairly complex in Omaha culture, with different levels and kinds of rights and responsibilities. There are different terms for the various kinds, as I recall. And, there's also a current, constitutional system, too, that's probably more useful for most purposes. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 16 18:09:15 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 12:09:15 -0600 Subject: ... Word for "Family" ... In-Reply-To: <3ADB0C55.B7288FB@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > Also there seem to be different words for 'family' > 1. Gratogre (really 'relatives' - gra 'to be related/loved'+togre 'together') > 2. Chuyu (could this be 'household'? fr. Chi 'house' + uyu 'to live in') Cf. Omaha-Ponca ttiz^u 'household', I think. > 3. And of course wodi/wori, 'relative/relations' Cf. OP e=...dhe 'relative' (a causative of e 'the aforesaid'). Unfortunately (?) you can't talk about kinship in Omaha-Ponca without being able to inflect casuative verbs. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 16 18:26:10 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 12:26:10 -0600 Subject: Ch.Orthography/ Word for "Chief", "Family" In-Reply-To: <3ADB0C55.B7288FB@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > And finally, when we are talking about kinship, for IO we usually use > 'hina' for 'mother' (the word you use to address 'mom').. but there is > also 'ihun' for 'his/her mother' etc. (the word used to refer to a > 'mother') And for father, 'hinka' but his/her is either anje/nanje. > > If I was doing an illustration of 'mother' or 'father' which should I pick? Most of the Siouan languages have two terms for 'mother' and two terms for 'father'. The members of the pairs are in a suppletive relationship, meaning basically that one stem in the pair is used in some parts of the possessive paradigm and one stem is used in the other parts. The details vary from language to language, but in Omaha-Ponca, for example: 'father' vocative dadi' hau (male speaker) (old usage dadi' ha) dadi' ha (female speaker) my ... iNda'di your ... dhia'di his/her/their ... idha'di There isn't a term for 'our father'. (That must bother missionaries! No, I guess you want the vocative there.) Usually 'your father' is substituted. Here the two stems are -dadi and -(dh)adi, the latter comparable to aNje. The first person possessive is irregularly formed with this stem. The normal breakdown in suppletive kinship paradigms in Omaha-Ponca is vocative and first person vs. second and third person. A number of terms have innovated new suppletions, e.g., for 'his younger brother' isaN'ga, the vocative/first person is now khage'saNga. My linguistic intuition is that the "citation form" is the third person, but for teaching purposes you have to learn all four or five. A dictionary has got to list all forms or, at a minimum, both stems with a comment in the introduction about how to apply them to produce the four (five) derivative forms, and, for this set, something about the irregular inflection in the first person. A child will probably assume their own father, so the first person or vocative are perhaps the most natural caption to a picture. I've noticed that native Omaha-produced lists tend to ignore the second person entirely and concentrate on the vocative/first person and third person. How's that for a comprehensive non-answer! JEK From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 16 19:39:29 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 14:39:29 -0500 Subject: ... Word for "Family" ... Message-ID: > > 2. Chuyu (could this be 'household'? fr. Chi 'house' + uyu > 'to live in') > Cf. Omaha-Ponca ttiz^u 'household', I think. Hmm, that certainly seems to be related to Kansa chiz^o, which is a moiety name according to Dorsey. I once recorded this, but with an aspirated ch. But it may be derived from 'house', in which case it shouldn't have the aspiration. I wonder if one or the other involves folk etymology or if my ears just failed me? Bob From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 16 20:13:38 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 15:13:38 -0500 Subject: ... Word for "Chief" ... Message-ID: > The sets for 'chief' are pretty irregular and are probably loans > from somewhere. At one point Allan Taylor suggested Spanish > Cacique (from a South American source, I think). The OP root is > gahige (~ hagi) if I recall. > > 2. Wangegihi etc (fr. Wange 'man' + gi 'towards something' + > hi 'to cause' = 'Causes a person to go [do? something]', > relating to the authority of a chief. You could render gihi as > 'send(er)'. Nikka-gahi is another variant in Dhegiha dialects. Nikka 'man' with gahi as the root for 'chief'. Hi does not function as a causative in Dhegiha languages, and they routinely have ga- (Dakotan ka-) where Chiwere and Winnebago have gi-. So it certainly looks as though Dhegiha speakers analyze the root as gahi- (with ga- > gi- in CH/WI). I can't say anything about trying to derive it from Spanish Cacique, but i tend to doubt it. bob From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Apr 16 21:25:00 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 16:25:00 -0500 Subject: ... Word for "Chief" ... Message-ID: > At one point Allan Taylor suggested Spanish > Cacique (from a South American source, I think). >>From Taino (Hispaniola dialect), according to dictionaries. From ioway at earthlink.net Tue Apr 17 01:24:12 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:24:12 -0600 Subject: Chiwere Popular Orthography Message-ID: You have a point, but for some letters that could be written as a single sound (say c for ch, or ñ for ny) are written two lettered, while the x could be kh and probably be more acceptable to the community (for some reason the x really sticks in their craw). If it was going to be consistent I would say "ce" for "che", and "mañi" for "manyi", if I decided to stick with "x", to be consistent with the one sound=one letter. I think for a beginner-level the "kh" may be easier to deal with (I know some really want the hyphens but I put my foot down on that one). One thing to support the "just make'em learn linguistic notation" is what do you do with the eng sound? "ng" is insufficient, as how does one differentiate shunge (SHOONG-ay) from shunge (SHOONG-gay)? And then there is the nasal thing, with hi vs hin. In that case do I go with a superscript "n" which may be more understandable (if a bit sloppy) than the subscript hook (which I always dug) or the tilde over the "i" which looks really sloppy in the IPA font I just downloaded. One more thing I gotta ask. It's been many years (about 1981) since I took linguistics, so what symbol is used to designate the "hm" sound (the one where you say "m" while breathing out through your nose?) Or the "hn" sound? And for IO, what is the best choice in the IPA fonts for the flapped r/l? For "pipe" I have seen rahnuwe, lahnuwe, and even danuwe! And for wori "relative", it is usually said/heard/spelled wodi! Lance So: baxoje, ci, che, mañi, "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: > If you go down far enough, you'll find my message. Bob > > > I am running into real difficulty with coming up with an > > orthography that is > > acceptable to the speaking community. There is an absolute > > resistance to a > > standard orthography. > > Join the (already very large) club! I sympathize and have the same problem > with Kaws who desperately want to stick with English spelling conventions. > It is a universal problem and one to which I have no solution. If there are > essentially no native speakers, it probably won't be possible to get people > to agree. Period. No matter what you do, folks will revert to their own > private spellings to "clarify" what you give them. > > I happen to be one of those curmudgeonly guys who thinks that "teacher knows > best." And as the author of your materials, you are in a strong position to > be a little insistent. It's obvious that people are going to want to be able > to use Jimm's dictionary, so I think that is the system I'd use myself. > Linguists use X for the velar fricative because the Greeks use it that way, > and when linguists ran out of Roman letters, they went to the Greek alphabet > for more symbols. You can try to get agreement from your users, but I have > to be pessimistic about your chances. > > When we are taught Spanish in high school, we don't get a choice about how > to spell [x]. They just tell us we're gonna have to learn that it's spelled > with most of the time and in front of i or e. Sometimes you just > have to try to use your influence to impose a solution. Good luck! > > Bob -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From ioway at earthlink.net Tue Apr 17 01:43:44 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:43:44 -0600 Subject: Ch.Orthography/ Word for "Chief", "Family" Message-ID: If they tackle Dakotan they have to learn at least one, probably several, systems for the Dakotan dialect they decide on. They > may even have to learn a bit about several dialects, since the important > references have in several different dialects. What has been the most successful systems, in terms of community acceptance, for ANY Siouan language? Anyone want to nominatre the one with the most community acceptance? > > > I tend to agree with Bob. You'll have to pronounce the words for the kids > anyway. If anyone complains about the x's and what not, you should just > tell them it's not English and some broadening of the mind may be > required. A colleague used to tell users "getting the answer to that > requires an out-of-net experience." This requires an out-of-English > experience. Again, use fo the x as in Jimm's system is simply not consistent with the rest of the system. For example, ch, ny, ng, etc are all written with two consonants. They could each be written with one (c, ñ, the "eng") if we want to be consistent with the use of x. If we wish to use ch, ny, ng, why not use kh? Not to pick on Jimm, but his and Lila's system uses "sh" not the "esh". I am simply arguing for consistency either way we go. And we are also talking about nonnative speakers and getting them interested rather than scared off. > > > > This reminds me: wasn't there a list of the most common/necessary > > terms (100? 200?) that a linguist developed when learning any > > language? (like run, hot, eat, etc) > > Not really. There's a supposedly 'Basic" vocabulary list for English, but > it's very peculiar to English. ...In these > lists there are a fair number of egregious Indo-European or European > dependencies in the vocabulary as well as Western European dependencies in > the implicit assumptions about the grammar. A point I hadn't thought of. I was remembering a film I saw as an undergrad where a linguist, using NO english was able to elicit a basic vocabulary and basic grammar using nothing but gestures and repetition. Does this sound familiar? -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 17 02:59:03 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:59:03 -0600 Subject: ... Word for "Chief" ... In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A441496@skylark.mail.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > The OP root is > gahige (~ hagi) if I recall. Oops, I transposed gahi. > > > 2. Wangegihi etc (fr. Wange 'man' + gi 'towards something' + > > hi 'to cause' = 'Causes a person to go [do? something]', > > relating to the authority of a chief. You could render gihi as > > 'send(er)'. > > Nikka-gahi is another variant in Dhegiha dialects. Nikka 'man' with gahi as > the root for 'chief'. Hi does not function as a causative in Dhegiha > languages, and they routinely have ga- (Dakotan ka-) where Chiwere and > Winnebago have gi-. So it certainly looks as though Dhegiha speakers analyze > the root as gahi- (with ga- > gi- in CH/WI). I can't say anything about > trying to derive it from Spanish Cacique, but i tend to doubt it. I hadn't thought of that. It makes sense to see gihi as a development of gahi. And then Nikka-gahi does parallel waNge-gihi exactly. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 17 03:17:40 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:17:40 -0600 Subject: Chiwere Popular Orthography In-Reply-To: <3ADB9B3B.DD8263A0@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > You have a point, but for some letters that could be written as a > single sound (say c for ch, or � for ny) are written two lettered, > while the x could be kh and probably be more acceptable to the > community (for some reason the x really sticks in their craw). Well, Dakotanists used to use h plus some diacritic, e.g., h-overdot. I'm trying to remember if the Colorado System uses h-hacek. > If it was going to be consistent I would say "ce" for "che", and "ma�i" for > "manyi", if I decided to stick with "x", to be consistent with the one > sound=one letter. > I think for a beginner-level the "kh" may be easier to deal with (I > know some really want the hyphens but I put my foot down on that one). The problem with stop + h combinations (ph, th, ch, kh) is that they are the most natural way to write aspiration, which is essentially always a factor in Mississippi Valley languages. > One thing to support the "just make'em learn linguistic notation" is > what do you do with the eng sound? "ng" is insufficient, as how does > one differentiate shunge (SHOONG-ay) from shunge (SHOONG-gay)? In cases like that you are pretty much driven to using the eng-character - n with a j-tail. > And then there is the nasal thing, with hi vs hin. In that case do I > go with a superscript "n" which may be more understandable (if a bit > sloppy) than the subscript hook (which I always dug) or the tilde over > the "i" which looks really sloppy in the IPA font I just downloaded. Either superscript n or the hook work for me. > One more thing I gotta ask. It's been many years (about 1981) since I > took linguistics, so what symbol is used to designate the "hm" sound > (the one where you say "m" while breathing out through your nose?) Or > the "hn" sound? Siouanists mostly use hm and hn. > And for IO, what is the best choice in the IPA fonts for the flapped > r/l? For "pipe" I have seen rahnuwe, lahnuwe, and even danuwe! And for > wori "relative", it is usually said/heard/spelled wodi! It doesn't really matter, but I'd tend to pick r somewhat arbitarily. There is a special charactger for it, but I don't think anyone but a fanatic would use it in writing a phonemic system where it wasn't opposed to some other r character. Which brings up an interesting question. Except in a very few words that have y for *y (sometimes written z^) IO merges *r and *y and *R as r. I've sometimes wondered if *R might still really contrast with *r in IO, leading to two contrasting r's that were everywhere being transcribed as r. In fact, the thing that made me wonder was the occasional d for *r. JEK From munro at ucla.edu Tue Apr 17 03:28:08 2001 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:28:08 -0700 Subject: Chiwere Popular Orthography Message-ID: One way to differentiate plain intervocalic eng from eng before g (I'm not sure what Lance means by this symbol) is to write ng for the first and ngg for the second. Of course the second looks a bit odd, but in fact (most) English speakers are generally quite happy to acknowledge the difference between ng (eng) in singer and ngg (eng+g) in finger. It is not true that orthographies have to use nonstandard symbols and consequently not be emailable etc. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 17 03:38:44 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:38:44 -0600 Subject: Ch.Orthography/ Word for "Chief", "Family" In-Reply-To: <3ADB9FCE.5B01CD@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > What has been the most successful systems, in terms of community acceptance, > for ANY Siouan language? Anyone want to nominate the one with the most > community acceptance? I have the impression that the popular orthography for Crow is well accepted. Before that there were at least the Lowie and the Kaschube systems. > Again, use of the x as in Jimm's system is simply not consistent with > the rest of the system. For example, ch, ny, ng, etc are all written > with two consonants. They could each be written with one (c, �, the > "eng") if we want to be consistent with the use of x. If we wish to > use ch, ny, ng, why not use kh? Not to pick on Jimm, but his and > Lila's system uses "sh" not the "esh". I am simply arguing for > consistency either way we go. And we are also talking about nonnative > speakers and getting them interested rather than scared off. I'm not sure Jimm's system was aimed at using one-letter ot two-letter combinations. It looks to me like he set out to use English patterns but fell back on common expedients like x for the velar fricative where English didn't go. I don't think linguists attach much significance to using one letter ot two to represent a sound in practical systems, only to not using more than one expedient (of however many letters) to represent the same sound. So you wouldn't want to write IO "r" sometimes with r, sometimes with l. The one exception would be cases where there is some well-conditioned allophony you want to appeal to. For example, Carolyn Quintero uses r in br, and edh otherwise for th Osage edh (or r). And I use ptc^k in sp, etc., but bdj^g not in clusters, though there is no contrast between p and b, etc. I've tried writing sp and p, e.g., pute for bu(u)de 'acorn', but it involved more explaining than seemed necessary. I've noticed that folks working with Winnebago write sg and g, for example, though, and that seems to work for them. > A point I hadn't thought of. I was remembering a film I saw as an > undergrad where a linguist, using NO english was able to elicit a > basic vocabulary and basic grammar using nothing but gestures and > repetition. Does this sound familiar? My wife says she can teach English this way, but that it's a slow process. It's better to have a translator. We softies working with Native American languages in the US tend to rely on the speaker to be the translator, too. I've heard of cases where the linguist spoke a sort of X to a translator who spoke X and Y and translated X into Y to deal with a speaker who spoke Y and Z, Z being the language of interest. Dorsey seems to have done something like this with a lot of his Omaha-Ponca work. The speakers in many cases knew very little English. He wrote as fast as he could, got them to repeat when he could, and then worked through the results with the aid of one of the tribe's translators or with various consultants like Frank (Francis) LaFlesche or some others who were hired to come to Washington or were visiting on other business. He also elicited texts from English-Omaha-Ponca bilinguals like Frank LaFlesche. Your best bet in developing a vocabulary list is to look at existing texts. JEK From pathfind at country.net.au Tue Apr 17 05:23:36 2001 From: pathfind at country.net.au (Pathfinders) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 15:23:36 +1000 Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: Moving campus... please unsubscribe 'til new ISP. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ioway at earthlink.net Tue Apr 17 13:57:45 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 07:57:45 -0600 Subject: Chiwere Popular Orthography Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > > > I think for a beginner-level the "kh" may be easier to deal with (I > > know some really want the hyphens but I put my foot down on that one). > > The problem with stop + h combinations (ph, th, ch, kh) is that they are > the most natural way to write aspiration, which is essentially always a > factor in Mississippi Valley languages. ok..if th and ch should be avoided as they are "the most natural way to write aspiration", then what do you say about their use in Jimm's system then as far as che and thi? Most in the community seem to be okay with th as theta for example. Although aspiration may be a linguistic characteristic, I don't think it seems to have much importance in the way of distinguishing a meaningful sound anymore (though if you have an example of such a distinction I would be interested!).. aspiration seems just to be a matter of having a more authentic "native accent". I still have a problem with whether the b/p in b/paxoje was originally supposed to be "snow" (ba) or "head" (pa) Lance From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 17 15:00:38 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:00:38 -0500 Subject: Ch.Orthography/ Word for "Chief", "Family" Message-ID: > What has been the most successful systems, in terms of > community acceptance, For Dakotan, the one the Bible was translated into. But not for linguistic reasons, obviously. The Riggs system has probably been around the longest too. I still see no point in changing Jimm's system; it will just make the dictionary inaccessible. I suppose "kh" would work for /x/ in parallel with "gh" for gamma. Aspiration isn't being written as such, so kh is available. As for "ng", Pam's suggestion is good. I discovered it's used a lot in Australia and the SW Pacific (ng/ngg). But since all "ng" sounds in Chiwere actually originate in /ng/ sequences, maybe leaving it alone would work well enough. Or you could spell it "nh" to parallel the other diacritic uses of "h", but, again, I'd stick with the dict. for practical reasons. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 17 16:01:56 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:01:56 -0500 Subject: Chiwere Popular Orthography Message-ID: > ... aspiration, ... is essentially always a factor in > Mississippi Valley languages. True, but since Chiwere/Winnebago specialists have opted to use plain p,t,c,k for the aspirates, that leaves "h" open to be used in digraphs. > ...aspiration seems just to be a matter of having a more > authentic "native accent". The recordings I have of Truman Dailey, Franklin Murray and Lizzie Harper make the aspiration distinction 100% of the time. The consonants written are aspirated [ph,th,ch,kh] in all contexts. But then the consonants that are typically being written with b,d,j,g are sometimes voiced but sometimes voiceless-UNaspirated, creating the problem you describe below: > I still have a problem with whether the b/p in b/paxoje was > originally supposed to be "snow" (ba) or "head" (pa) 'Head' is /pha/, of course. And the b/p of Baxoje are both UNaspirated, i.e., written with "b". This is a problem that Chiwere specialists have always faced. If they fool themselves into thinking that the distinction is one of voicing, they simply transcribe many of the words wrong. The distinction is always aspirated/unaspirated, and the UNaspirated stops can be *either* voiced or voiceless. Bob From FurbeeL at missouri.edu Tue Apr 17 19:33:36 2001 From: FurbeeL at missouri.edu (Louanna Furbee) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 14:33:36 -0500 Subject: Orthography Message-ID: Lance, I'm completely overwhelmed and can't respond to all of your orthography queries (plus other comments on them from other people) at this minute, but here is a quick, unresearched set of opinions. I would suggest that if you can do a superscript n for nazalization, you probably can do a superscript h for either pre or post aspiration. So, you could do hm (with the h superscipt) for preaspirated m, for example, and ph, th, kh, even chh if you want to do that (again with the last h superscript). I'm not sure I'd chose that for my purposes, but it would leave th (no superscript) available for theta and ch for the ch/j (with hachek) of Chiwere (the one that is unaspirated, lenis, and sometimes is heard as a voiced affricate by English speakers). To that end, with respect to your query I still have a problem with whether the b/p in b/paxoje was originally supposed to be "snow" (ba) or "head" (pa) I'd think if the if it is the unaspirated b/p, then it's going to derive from the "snow" example, if the p "head" is ordinarily aspirated, but I'd have to look up these forms to be sure. If you're going to used b, d, g, j for the lenis, sometimes voiced, sometimes voiceless consonant series, then you can reserve ph, th, k, ch, etc. (superscript h in each) for the aspirated, tense, voiceless consonants. The other big set is the glottalized one: just use an apostrophe after the letter for that: p', t', k', ch', etc. If you're writing long vowels, just double the vowel or use a colon after it: aa or a: Like you, I don't find any easy solution to the ng problem. If it is always clear where there is a word boundary, then it is ok with ng. In that case, you can write ngk, when a syllable ends with an agma and begins with a k/g. It might work, but it looks clugy. More and better later. Louanna -- Prof. N. Louanna Furbee Department of Anthropology 107 Swallow Hall University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65211 USA Telephones: 573/882-9408 (office) 573/882-4731 (department) 573/446-0932 (home) 573/884-5450 (fax) E-mail: FurbeeL at missouri.edu From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu Tue Apr 17 20:00:20 2001 From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 15:00:20 -0500 Subject: Sacred Syllable Message-ID: With respect to Omaha ku, in Wi Marino-Radin has ko, meaning, "to look out for, make a place for," and kox, "to help, assist." We also have kog / kok, meaning "box, etc." Besides k'o, "thunder," there is kox, "screetching (of birds)," and the Bird Clan name, KoxmaniNga, "Walking while Making Kox." I now find in Miner the word goo, meaning, "to give a religious feast; (with object) to invite to a religious feast." It may well be that gu is not Siouan at all, but Algonquin. It would seem to be an internationally understood expression, which makes it less likely that it is just Wi. Apart from the three stories that mention it, I had never heard of any such practice anywhere. Responding to the message of <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A441487 at skylark.mail.ukans.edu> from siouan at lists.colorado.edu: > > > > ... Omaha text where the earth says 'ku'' as it brings forth > > some rocks. > > ORdinarily this couldn't be related to Winnebago /gu/ since Omaha /u/ is > invariably from /o/ (and actually pronounced [o] about half the time in my > Omaha notes from ca. 1973). Nor can Winnebago /g/ be related to Omaha > (/kk/), only to Omaha /g/. So the Omaha reflex for the WI sacred syllable > ought to be /gi/ if no sound symbolism is involved. I haven't run across > anything suggestive in my own work, sorry to say. > > In this particular term though, I think probably is the standard root > for 'make a hollow sound' that is found in 'drum, box, cucurbit, etc. Kind > of makes sense that the earth might rumble when coughing up rocks. Winnebago > should have /ko-/ for that root. > > Bob > > . From jggoodtracks at juno.com Tue Apr 17 22:16:39 2001 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 17:16:39 -0500 Subject: Orthography Message-ID: Approximately two (2) years ago (1999), I contemplated how to make a more precise Baxoje-Jiwere Orthography, and composed the following set to eliminate some of the confusion with nasal verbs marked by "n", as well as the confussion between the "ny" & "ng". In as much as this represented a change from the orthography of IOM Bks I & II, and the IOM Dictionary (1992), I thought it well to review the change with community members before, formalizing the new set of characters [fonts] (enclosed here via attachment formated via MSWord 95). The review was carried out with an explaination of how the new characters would facilitate an accurate rendering of the language. A number of community members active in their present contemporary culture and tribal events in Perkins, Red Rock, & White Cloud were consulted. All individuals have partial knowledge of the IOM language from their respective families, and/or have studied the language with others in the respective communities. Upon their acceptance of the proposed set, I composed the enclosed Orthography Update (5/99). The only character rejected was a single "c" or "c^ (hachek) for the sound of "ch". I suggested that it could be written as "c^h", as we think ahead and move towards the tentative time of new learners/ speakers to become familiar and accepting the "c^" (hachek) for the sound in the future, in as much as all fluent speakers are deceased. There was no consideration of the Greek letters theta for "th" nor delta for "dh" were not considered. Of late, There has been discussion of vowel length, and possible marking of it. This needs to be under further review. Also, the discussions have been on-going in regard to marking aspiration distintions. However, as BobR. has pointed out that recordings of Truman Dailey, Franklin Murray, Lizzie Harper, as well as, Joe Young, Betsy Dupee Young, Mary Dupee Irving, Grace Kihega, Ella Brown, Alice Sines, Robert Moore, Fannie Grant (just to name a few more on record) make the aspiration distinction 100% of the time. So for the non-speaker of IOM, it is a matter of learning to hear the distinctions, and accurately reiterate/ render the spoken word. Both Bob and John have commented on the fact that Siouan Languages are not English. If the student of the particular language is committed, they will learn the orthography that has been adapted and standardized by individuals who have been working with it over several decades, as opposed to the recently introduced student. For that student, if it helps them learn it, by writing a sounding out in English glosses, then permit them to do so. Jimm P.S. In the last two years, other individuals have consulted me to assist in rendering an accurate written form (words) and pronunciation of their family Native names from the dot-dash English phonics of past records. In each case, I've written them in the updated orthography to their satisfaction. Others across the country, have asked for stories and narratives, which have been sent in the updated orthography. To date, I have heard no negative responces, either directly nor indirectly. Indeed, I receive "Thank You's" of appreciation, and maybe an occassional remark of "I can make it out (IOM)" or "I need to learn how to read it". -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Orthographic Updates.doc Type: application/octet-stream Size: 14336 bytes Desc: not available URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 18 00:11:06 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 18:11:06 -0600 Subject: Chiwere Popular Orthography In-Reply-To: <3ADC4BD8.D56CC7C2@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Apr 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > Koontz John E wrote: > > The problem with stop + h combinations (ph, th, ch, kh) is that they are > > the most natural way to write aspiration, which is essentially always a > > factor in Mississippi Valley languages. > > ok..if th and ch should be avoided as they are "the most natural way to write > aspiration", then what do you say about their use in Jimm's system then as far > as che and thi? I guess the answer is that while I consider using and , reserving h for aspiration, to be perfectly natural and reasonable, others don't. > I still have a problem with whether the b/p in b/paxoje was originally > supposed to be "snow" (ba) or "head" (pa) I believe it is unaspirated (because people write baxoje as well as early "pahoute"), so ba (or pa), not pha, hence ba 'snow'. And I'd write 'snow' ba (or pa - one or the other, not both) and 'head' pha. For what it's worth, Omaha-Ponca has maxude, which is basically consistent with baxoje, since ma is 'snow'. If it were 'head' it would be ppaxude. Of course, you can't rely on what happens in a loan (which I assume this is), because the loan might involve a reinterpretation (changing to 'head' if the speaker believed this to be the meaning) or go by phonetics, in which case perhaps ba (heard as [pa]) might be mapped to ppa, and so on. I assume this is a loan because it's unlikely a contemporary ethnonym, even a fairly venerable one (attested by at least 1700?) would be unlikely to be inherited from, say, Proto-Mississippi Valley. Almost by definition, the current ethnic groups would not have existed at that point. I might add as a final note that though Baxoje seems to be fairly clearly interpretable as 'gray snow' there's a possibility that something else is involved. The name might have been modified to support a folk etymology, or might simply have some other meaning currently obscure. Ethnonyms are often subjected to folk etymologically-founded modifications. On the other hand, the name may simply encode an emphemerally based description of a place, converted successively into a village name and then an ethnonym, just as it seems it might. It's always difficult to determine what names that are analyzable but something of a non sequitur might refer to. It's even harder if the name is ambiguous with some more lasting verity. For example, are the Omahas UmaNhaN 'upstream' because at some point an ancestral group lived in a place upstream of something since forgotten (some other village? a prominent landmark?) or because they were upstream of all other Dhegiha groups (except the Ponca!)? The latter is the usual assumption, especially given that Ugaxpa (Quapaw in OP form) means 'downstream', but it gives one pause to learn that the Quapaw (in the larger sense) included a village called ImaNhaN 'downstream'. It's not even clear to me that the present name Ugaxpa (etc) originally applied outside of the one of five contact period villages called Ugaxpa, though I've debated this back and forth with Bob Rankin, who thinks it might have applied more widely even at contact. But in any case it's clear that names like "upstream" can be of a more or less local origin, and I would assume that 'gray snow' must have some similar local explanation if Baxoje is to be analyzed as such. From ioway at earthlink.net Wed Apr 18 01:02:11 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 19:02:11 -0600 Subject: Orthography Message-ID: I looked at your new orthography and found it right on, Jimm! I see it has addressed my own frustrations quite well, and with your permission, I will adapt my own work to correspond to your new orthography..it is indeed a giant step in the right direction, and can only help us nonspeakers. Plainly, it kicks butt, hintaro! I am very impressed that you were able to get the many voices together in agreement. Not an easy task, and I am plumb amazed! I hope my efforts are somehow able to complement yours, as well as Dr. Furbee's. Warigroxi, Lance Jimm G GoodTracks wrote: > Approximately two (2) years ago (1999), I contemplated how to make a more > precise Baxoje-Jiwere Orthography, and composed the following set to > eliminate some of the confusion with nasal verbs marked by "n", as well > as the confussion between the "ny" & "ng". > > In as much as this represented a change from the orthography of IOM Bks I > & II, and the IOM Dictionary (1992), I thought it well to review the > change with community members before, formalizing the new set of > characters [fonts] (enclosed here via attachment formated via MSWord 95). > > The review was carried out with an explaination of how the new characters > would facilitate an accurate rendering of the language. A number of > community members active in their present contemporary culture and tribal > events in Perkins, Red Rock, & White Cloud were consulted. All > individuals have partial knowledge of the IOM language from their > respective families, and/or have studied the language with others in the > respective communities. Upon their acceptance of the proposed set, I > composed the enclosed Orthography Update (5/99). > > The only character rejected was a single "c" or "c^ (hachek) for the > sound of "ch". I suggested that it could be written as "c^h", as we > think ahead and move towards the tentative time of new learners/ speakers > to become familiar and accepting the "c^" (hachek) for the sound in the > future, in as much as all fluent speakers are deceased. There was no > consideration of the Greek letters theta for "th" nor delta for "dh" were > not considered. > > Of late, > There has been discussion of vowel length, and possible marking of it. > This needs to be under further review. > Also, the discussions have been on-going in regard to marking aspiration > distintions. However, as BobR. has pointed out that recordings of Truman > Dailey, Franklin Murray, Lizzie Harper, as well as, Joe Young, Betsy > Dupee Young, Mary Dupee Irving, Grace Kihega, Ella Brown, Alice Sines, > Robert Moore, Fannie Grant (just to name a few more on record) make the > aspiration distinction 100% of the time. So for the non-speaker of IOM, > it is a matter of learning to hear the distinctions, and accurately > reiterate/ render the spoken word. > > Both Bob and John have commented on the fact that Siouan Languages are > not English. If the student of the particular language is committed, > they will learn the orthography that has been adapted and standardized by > individuals who have been working with it over several decades, as > opposed to the recently introduced student. For that student, if it > helps them learn it, by writing a sounding out in English glosses, then > permit them to do so. > Jimm > > P.S. In the last two years, other individuals have consulted me to > assist in rendering an accurate written form (words) and pronunciation of > their family Native names from the dot-dash English phonics of past > records. In each case, I've written them in the updated orthography to > their satisfaction. Others across the country, have asked for stories > and narratives, which have been sent in the updated orthography. To > date, I have heard no negative responces, either directly nor indirectly. > Indeed, I receive "Thank You's" of appreciation, and maybe an > occassional remark of "I can make it out (IOM)" or "I need to learn how > to read it". > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Name: Orthographic Updates.doc > Orthographic Updates.doc Type: Microsoft Word Document (application/msword) > Encoding: base64 -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From rankin at ku.edu Wed Apr 18 18:18:05 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 13:18:05 -0500 Subject: Chiwere Popular Orthography Message-ID: > I might add as a final note that though Baxoje seems to be > fairly clearly > interpretable as 'gray snow' there's a possibility that > something else is > involved. The name might have been modified to support a > folk etymology, > or might simply have some other meaning currently obscure. I guess I've tended myself to take nearly all these "transparent" ethnonyms as mostly folk etymologies, but John's right. It may just have some anecdotal historical reference lost in time. > it gives one pause to learn that the Quapaw (in the larger > sense) included a village called ImaNhaN 'downstream'. 'Upstream' actually, as John no doubt noticed as he was pressing the "send" button. It was "up" the tributary from the main 4 villages that were near the junction with the Mississippi. I was talking about some of these ethnonyms with an archaeologist at Wichita State U. last week and he felt that the Pa- in Pani, Paxoje and Padouca ought to be a morpheme. I don't know that I agree, but it's true that all may be borrowings. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 18 20:02:22 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 14:02:22 -0600 Subject: Chiwere Popular Orthography In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A4414A2@skylark.mail.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > it gives one pause to learn that the Quapaw (in the larger > > sense) included a village called ImaNhaN 'downstream'. > > 'Upstream' actually, as John no doubt noticed as he was pressing the "send" > button. It was "up" the tributary from the main 4 villages that were near > the junction with the Mississippi. No, I was still blissfully unaware. Yes, it's 'upstream'. Incidentally, the Imaha group are interesting in that they were absorbed by the Caddo. > I was talking about some of these ethnonyms with an archaeologist at Wichita > State U. last week and he felt that the Pa- in Pani, Paxoje and Padouca > ought to be a morpheme. I don't know that I agree, but it's true that all > may be borrowings. I've wondered about this myself, but Siouan-based enlightenment has consistently failed to dawn. The most likely possibility is *hpa 'head' and its various reflexes, but there is no evidence outside these sets of 'head' being used to refer to ethnic groups, though in leger books and similar artistic contexts the head does stand for unfocussed and abbreviated persons. Also, though the folk etymologically modified versions of padouca (ppadaNkka, etc.) do provide somewhat obscure support for 'head' (now that they've been "fixed"), ppadhiN, etc., don't seem to be helped by this approach. I doubt -dhiN has anything to do with movement, for example. So, perhaps there is a non-Siouan explanation for these forms. I think that the pa in Baxoje differs from the other two in not being aspirated. So, it's not really part of the set. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 18 20:13:30 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 14:13:30 -0600 Subject: Pawnee In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A4414A2@skylark.mail.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I was talking about some of these ethnonyms with an archaeologist at Wichita > State U. last week and he felt that the Pa- in Pani, Paxoje and Padouca > ought to be a morpheme. I don't know that I agree, but it's true that all > may be borrowings. I should mention an idea suggested to me by Heriberto Dixon, namely that Pani, Pawnee, etc., might derive from (Sa)poney. It would be a case of converting the Poney variant of the Saponey ethnonym to apply to all enslaved relatively western Indians. This is interesting, but I don't know if the timing and sources support it. Pani(a) as a component of ethnonyms is first attested in French from, I think, Miami-Illinois sources (like Padouca?), quite early and already refers to Northern Caddoan groups. The attestations for it as a term in English for 'Indian slave' and referring apparently still to Northern Caddoans are somewhat later, but still early. (Paging Alan Hartley!) From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Apr 18 22:14:21 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 17:14:21 -0500 Subject: Pawnee Message-ID: > I should mention an idea suggested to me by Heriberto Dixon, namely that > Pani, Pawnee, etc., might derive from (Sa)poney. It would be a case of > converting the Poney variant of the Saponey ethnonym to apply to all > enslaved relatively western Indians. This is interesting, but I don't > know if the timing and sources support it. Pani(a) as a component of > ethnonyms is first attested in French from, I think, Miami-Illinois > sources (like Padouca?), quite early and already refers to Northern > Caddoan groups. The attestations for it as a term in English for 'Indian > slave' and referring apparently still to Northern Caddoans are somewhat > later, but still early. The earliest example I have of PAWNEE (as ), presumably with approx. its modern reference, is on Marquette's map of 1673. As he was among the Illinois on the upper Mississippi, and as the Illinois ethnonym is cited in Gravier's ms. dict. of c1700, Illinois does seem the most likely immediate etymon for the Fr. name. The Illinois name could still, of course, have come from Siouan. My earliest example of the 'slave' use is (in translation) from 1709, in J. C. HAMILTON The Panis: an hist. Outline of Canadian Indian Slavery in the eighteenth Century [reprint of Proc. Canad. Inst., n.s. I. pt. 1, no. 1 (1897)] 25 "Jacques Raudot, Ninth Intendant, issued an ordinance at Quebec on April 13th, 1709.."We..order that all the panis and negroes who have been bought, and who shall be purchased hereafter, shall belong in full proprietorship to those who have purchased them as their slaves." " And later 1764 in J. C. HAMILTON The Panis: an hist. Outline of Canadian Indian Slavery in the eighteenth Century [reprint of Proc. Canad. Inst., n.s. I. pt. 1, no. 1 (1897)] 23 [quoting E. O'Callaghan ed. Documents Relating to the colonial Hist. New York VII. 650] "any English who may be prisoners or deserters, any negroes, panis, or other slaves amongst the Hurons, who are British property, shall be delivered up within one month to the commandment of the Detroit." In 1767: J. CARVER Journals (1976) 138 "about the head of the Missouri are many Indian bands called in general Pawnees or Pawnanes signifying slaves. War parties from the Naudowessie bring from hence abundance of slaves" (John Koontz pointed out to me that Carver's second form is the Dakotan version, the only example I have in English.) And note G. LEMOINE Dict. français-algonquin (1911) 244 "Esclave...apanini, pani (de race américaine)" (maybe a borrowing from Fr.?) It seems likely that the 'slave' use arose shortly after the first arrivals in Lower Canada of Pawnee captives. As for SAPONY: the first examples I've got are from an Eng. doc. of 1672, as and which imply (to me) stress on the first syllable, and thus a small likelihood that the name would have been borrowed without that syll. Mooney (in Hdbk. Amer. Indians) lists 22 forms in his synonymy, only one of which (but still one!), from 1789 occurs (as ) without the sa-. And SAPONI doesn't seem geographically a very likely etymon for PAWNEE, either, especially given that the 'slave' use occurs so early in Canad. Fr. Alan From ioway at earthlink.net Thu Apr 19 00:16:33 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 18:16:33 -0600 Subject: Pawnee Message-ID: I have to go some hunting in my stuff, but I remember the following in Ioway historical material: 1. Panyi is a Siouan name, relating to the erect headdress, like that of a woodpecker's crest when angry. It is significant that woodpecker scalps on the clan pipe are tied down so they do not stand erect, symbolizing the peaceful nature of the pipe, but also its potential power in war to effect peace. Of course IO also used that same headdress, the red roach (of deer tail hair or turkey beard), which signified a warrior's status. Today's Iroska (Om Hethuska etc) (straight dance) uses that same headdress, and it is significant that the Iroska was gained from the Pawnee, as part of a war, religion and adoption complex that appears to have included the Grizzly Bear Doctor society and the Pipe Dance of intertribal peacemaking/adoption. Pa seems to indicate "head" here; "nyi" may mean "water" or "life", but I cannot say as it may be a contraction of something longer in times past. 2. Padoke (var. Padunke/Padouca) was the Siouan/IO word for first the Plains Apache (in the 1500s-1700s) and then the Comanche (in the 1700s-1800s; also later known as Yetan, or Utes) who usurped the Plains Apache territory to the west and also the function of slave raiders and traders to the Spanish southwest. Padoke/Padunke was translated as "Wet Noses" or "Sweaty Noses", so here Pa means nose, as it does in IO today. [We have done Baxoje/Paxoje.. although the Omaha word is translated "Gray Snow" and the Osage word is translated "Snow Heads"] Pa is often translated as "nose" or "an animal's head" in IO. It is worth noting that the Ioway word for canada goose is Paxanye "Big Nose/Big Head" and the word for toe is "thipa"... so although one might translate pa as head, it also more basically seems to indicate a protrubance of a smaller element (nose/toe/goose head) from a larger element (face/foot/goose body) Lance Koontz John E wrote: > On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > I was talking about some of these ethnonyms with an archaeologist at Wichita > > State U. last week and he felt that the Pa- in Pani, Paxoje and Padouca > > ought to be a morpheme. I don't know that I agree, but it's true that all > > may be borrowings. > > I should mention an idea suggested to me by Heriberto Dixon, namely that > Pani, Pawnee, etc., might derive from (Sa)poney. It would be a case of > converting the Poney variant of the Saponey ethnonym to apply to all > enslaved relatively western Indians. This is interesting, but I don't > know if the timing and sources support it. Pani(a) as a component of > ethnonyms is first attested in French from, I think, Miami-Illinois > sources (like Padouca?), quite early and already refers to Northern > Caddoan groups. The attestations for it as a term in English for 'Indian > slave' and referring apparently still to Northern Caddoans are somewhat > later, but still early. (Paging Alan Hartley!) -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Apr 19 05:14:43 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 23:14:43 -0600 Subject: ... Word for "Family" ... In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A441495@skylark.mail.ukans.edu> Message-ID: > > > 2. Chuyu (could this be 'household'? fr. Chi 'house' + uyu > > 'to live in') > > Cf. Omaha-Ponca ttiz^u 'household', I think. > > Hmm, that certainly seems to be related to Kansa chiz^o, which is a moiety > name according to Dorsey. I once recorded this, but with an aspirated ch. > But it may be derived from 'house', in which case it shouldn't have the > aspiration. I wonder if one or the other involves folk etymology or if my > ears just failed me? For Osage LaFlesche's Osage Dictionary lists "ts.i'zhu" cci'z^o (cciz^u?) in connection with three clans, c^hi'z^o odhohage 'last c.', c^hi'z^o wanoN 'elder c.', and c^hi'z^o was^take 'gentle c.' For Osage Dorsey's Siouan Sociology lists "Tsic.u" Chiz^u as one of the three major subdivisions (moieties?) of the Osage. Some of the clans in that division use the term in their names. (Basically the ones LaFlesche mentions.) For Kaw Dorsey idem lists "Tci ju wactage" C^hiz^u was^tage 'peaceful c.' as one of the Kaw clans. For Ponca Dorsey idem lists "tciNju" chiNz^u as one of the two moieties or half-tribes of the Ponca. For Quapaw Dorsey idem seems to indicate that there were remembered c. 1894 at least three, perhaps four divisions, each with from one to five remaining clans. One of the clans with an uncertain affiliation was "Ti'ju" Thiz^u, meaning unknown. Dorsey explicitly remarks that he got no translation for the Quapaw version, and seems to have gotten none for the others, so that he uses the word to translate itself. These terms seem to suggest thiz^u, usually diminutivized (?) to c^hiz^u or chiz^u (c^ = ts^; c = ts). I assume Ponca nasalization is secondary. I take it that Bob's ear can be trusted on aspiration (as well as lots of other things), and I assume that LaFlesche was simply off in his transcription of the word. I've noticed he was a bit wobbly on aspiration of ch (ts-aspirated) in some other cases, though it's hard to tell with a dot-diacritic when the problem isn't one of editing. After all, his Osage dicitonary manuscript was published postumously and he never got to proofread it. Omaha has tti'-uz^i 'household' in Dorsey's texts. LaFlesche gives "ts.i'-wazhi," perhaps for cci'-waz^u, for 'household' in Osage. This would appear to be the term corresponding to IO "chuyu," probably underlyingly something like c^h(i)-oyu or c^h(i)-uyu. (Note that I'm offering standardized "Net Siouan" transcriptions here, not trying to suggest any particular IO orthography.) I have to confess that I associated these two (sets of) terms before this, but I appear to have been misled. The *thiz^u term seems to be associated with moieties, clans, and divisions whose function is making peace and saving the lives of captives and suppliants. They are opposed to the HaNga (~ haNka, etc.) clans/divisions whose functions include war. Incidentally, I've noticed that Omaha-Ponca doesn't seem to have any term for moiety. There is a term for the two moieties collectively. The terminology for clan is more or less homophonous with the terminology for village, too, which is something of an areal feature, i.e., I think it is true in Pawnee, too. In spite of the tendency on my part to term the higher-level divisons moieties, there are often more than two, especially three, of them. In the past I have wondered if this might be explained by mergers of separate village organizations in which two of the original halves had different names, resulting in three halves, as it were. However, three is so regularly the alternative to two, and the names tend to be similar, making me wonder if three might not be the norm. The Omaha and Ponca are the most notable exceptions, though the original organization of the Quapaw is none too clear. It seems reasonable to interpret the Ponca as a bit unusual mainly due to having been extracted somehow from the original Omaha-Ponca unity. Among the Omaha the 'Left-Hand Side' Clan is especially large and well-developed in its internal organization, so that it might be taken as a third division. (Or some incorporated tribelet.) In fact, the breakdown into three is usually such that two of the divisions are on one side of the tribal circle of hudhuga (OP term) as allied haNga divisions, opposite the *thiz^u or is^tUnga (Kaw) or is^ta-saNda (Omaha) division, which happens to accord with the location of Left-Hand Side, too, on the south, next, in fact, to the HaNga clan. And, interestingly, the Kaw call the HaNga division Yat(t)a 'Left'. One more sociological note: in skimming Siouan Sociology I was also struck by the Osage office of s^okka, which seems to have something in common with that of vizier. I wondered if it might be some sort of Mississippian holdover. From Hartwell.Francis at colorado.edu Thu Apr 19 19:55:44 2001 From: Hartwell.Francis at colorado.edu (Hartwell Francis) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:55:44 -0600 Subject: Ch.Orthography Message-ID: Hello, I want to join the party. Let me introduce myself. I'm Hartwell Francis at the University of Colorado. I've started to work on the Chiwere material we have here in our Language Center. I particular, I have sorted the Marsh database into a searchable format - there's a sample below. The reason I write in is to respond to Lance and his work on coloring books. I am developing kits and procedures for creating books. I have used picture dictionaries to create bound books. I have also developed some techniques for creating alphabet books and picture books from scratch. I would like to share this stuff to see if it works, if anyone has any iterest. Also, the best word lists may come from studies of langauge acquisition. This lead me to wonder if there are any studies of Siouan first language acquisition. Hartwell Would you like to search English or Chiwere? en Please type in the word: chief THE CHIEF''S DAUGHTER, HIS SECOND DAUGHTER THAT IS (+WN. 2-3) WA*'4'NE GI*HI NA'4HA* IYU*'J'NE MI*'4HA'4 NA'4HA* ONCE UPON A TIME A CHIEF THERE WAS, THEY SAY (+AGT. 1.1.8-9) HA*'4WEYA'4 WA*'J'NE-GI'*HI IYA*'4 NA'4HA*N#E K'H"E CHIEF-+MAKER (MALE; FEMALE) WA'NE*K'HIHI-+WAO'4; +WA'NE*K'HIHI-+WAO'4MI From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Apr 19 22:50:14 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:50:14 -0600 Subject: Ch.Orthography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Hartwell Francis wrote: > The reason I write in is to respond to Lance and his work on coloring > books. I am developing kits and procedures for creating books. I have > used picture dictionaries to create bound books. I have also developed > some techniques for creating alphabet books and picture books from > scratch. I would like to share this stuff to see if it works, if anyone > has any iterest. Would anyone else in the OP working group be interested in working on this, too? Or is this something that's been effectively taken care of in the present orthographical context. I know that various Omaha efforts in this line have been created in the past. It might be nice to put up a version on the Web that anyone could download, maybe? Some sort of alternative, computer-free distribution should also be available, of course. By the way, I've always thought that the Crow had some nice things in this line, though I have no idea if they are available anymore. JEK From munro at ucla.edu Thu Apr 19 22:55:11 2001 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:55:11 -0700 Subject: Ch.Orthography Message-ID: I would be very interested to hear other people's ideas on coloring and alphabet books. I'm actually involved in the beginning stages of two projects like this (unfortunately currently for non-Siouan lgs) and I would love to see other people's ideas (and especially techniques, procedures, etc.) on how to do this. I think this is something that speakers generally welcome as a very positive thing linguists can help with. Thank you, Hartwell, for making this offer. Pam From wbgrail at hotmail.com Fri Apr 20 00:15:16 2001 From: wbgrail at hotmail.com (WENDY BRANWELL) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:15:16 -0500 Subject: Ch.Orthography Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Apr 20 05:07:13 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 23:07:13 -0600 Subject: Ch.Orthography In-Reply-To: <3ADF6CC4.3EA9180B@ucla.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Pamela Munro wrote: > I would be very interested to hear other people's ideas on coloring and > alphabet books. I'm actually involved in the beginning stages of two > projects like this ... I seem to remember that a couple of years ago the SIL Americanists (Hispano-America) had some software for something like this, too. JEK From munro at ucla.edu Fri Apr 20 05:29:51 2001 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 22:29:51 -0700 Subject: Ch.Orthography Message-ID: Dear John, Interesting! I haven't heard about this (that I recall). One of this projects is for a Mexican language, so that would be good.... Pam From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Fri Apr 20 12:53:15 2001 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 07:53:15 -0500 Subject: Ch.Orthography Message-ID: 20 April 2001 Aloha all: I would be very interested in any assistance along these lines on behalf of the Native Language:Omaha program here at the University of Nebraska. In collaboration with Omaha Nation Public School on the Omaha Reservation we have nearly completed the construction and translation of the first two of six bilingual elementary booklets planned for the academic period 2000-2002. We were expecting to approach the Omaha Nation Public School Art Dept. to solicit illustrations. Any ideas generated from this Siouanist list could assist us in formulating illustration strategies. On behalf of Omaha Nation, I know they are looking to create picture-centered sorts of bilingual materials for the very youngest ages (pre-school through elementary). I would gleefully pass on any and all ideas to them to consider. uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Lecturer Anthropology/Ethnic Studies c/o Department of Anthropology-Geography University of Nebraska Bessey Hall 132 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 Office 402-472-3455 Dept. 402-472-2411 FAX 402-472-9642 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu -----Original Message----- From: Koontz John E To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Date: Thursday, April 19, 2001 5:36 PM Subject: Re: Ch.Orthography >On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Hartwell Francis wrote: >> The reason I write in is to respond to Lance and his work on coloring >> books. I am developing kits and procedures for creating books. I have >> used picture dictionaries to create bound books. I have also developed >> some techniques for creating alphabet books and picture books from >> scratch. I would like to share this stuff to see if it works, if anyone >> has any iterest. > >Would anyone else in the OP working group be interested in working on >this, too? Or is this something that's been effectively taken care of in >the present orthographical context. I know that various Omaha efforts in >this line have been created in the past. It might be nice to put up a >version on the Web that anyone could download, maybe? Some sort of >alternative, computer-free distribution should also be available, of >course. >JEK From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Fri Apr 20 18:30:43 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:30:43 GMT Subject: a phonetic mystery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm glad that everyone else finds this confusing too. Actually I think the word for 'steal' is written manun or manon in everything I've ever seen. Not man Bruce Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Apr 20 18:33:11 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:33:11 -0600 Subject: a phonetic mystery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Bruce Ingham wrote: > I'm glad that everyone else finds this confusing too. Actually I think the word > for 'steal' is written manun or manon in everything I've ever seen. > Not man[u] (?) Perhaps the enclitic boundary is relevant? It might in some sense block the interactions between manu(N) and pi, whereas there is no such boundary between nuN and pa in 'two'. In that case =ktA should behave similarly, and =pi with other stems. Obviously the ablaut vowel conditioned by =ktA make that something of a special case. This might clarify whether iN behaved as if it were in the stem or the enclitic. Is there any boundary in 'swim'? From rankin at ku.edu Fri Apr 20 19:40:07 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:40:07 -0500 Subject: a phonetic mystery Message-ID: All, I seem to be missing the posting that started this thread off. It's possible I may have been to handy with the "delete" key or something. could someone foreword the original message back to the list or to me? Thanx. Bob > -----Original Message----- > From: Koontz John E [mailto:John.Koontz at colorado.edu] > Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 1:33 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: a phonetic mystery > > > On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Bruce Ingham wrote: > > I'm glad that everyone else finds this confusing too. > Actually I think the word > > for 'steal' is written manun or manon in everything I've ever seen. > > Not man[u] (?) > > Perhaps the enclitic boundary is relevant? It might in some > sense block > the interactions between manu(N) and pi, whereas there is no > such boundary > between nuN and pa in 'two'. In that case =ktA should behave > similarly, > and =pi with other stems. Obviously the ablaut vowel > conditioned by =ktA > make that something of a special case. This might clarify whether iN > behaved as if it were in the stem or the enclitic. > > Is there any boundary in 'swim'? > > > From shanwest at uvic.ca Fri Apr 20 20:42:49 2001 From: shanwest at uvic.ca (Shannon West) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:42:49 -0700 Subject: a phonetic mystery In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A4414AA@skylark.mail.ukans.edu> Message-ID: > All, > > I seem to be missing the posting that started this thread > off. It's possible > I may have been to handy with the "delete" key or something. > could someone > foreword the original message back to the list or to me? Thanx. To the entire list please. I don't have it either. I'm not sure why not. Thanks, Shannon From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Apr 20 21:21:28 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:21:28 -0600 Subject: Siouan List Archives (was RE: a phonetic mystery) In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A4414AA@skylark.mail.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I seem to be missing the posting that started this thread off. It's possible > I may have been to handy with the "delete" key or something. could someone > foreword the original message back to the list or to me? Thanx. The original post was a while back. It and all of the posts except an occasional accident that Aristar has been kind enough to delete for us may be seen at: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/siouan.html This particular thread started in March 2001: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A1=ind0103&L=siouan#31 JEK From jggoodtracks at juno.com Sun Apr 22 17:46:50 2001 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 12:46:50 -0500 Subject: Ch.Orthography Message-ID: Hartwell: That is good you have worked with the Siouan Files, and Marsh in particular. For the masses of people, the Files are still in the original encoded format of early day computering, about 1985 or so. I would be nice if you could convert them into a more recognizable Net format. Jimm On Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:55:44 -0600 (MDT) Hartwell Francis writes: > Hello, > > I want to join the party. Let me introduce myself. I'm Hartwell > Francis at the University of Colorado. I've started to work on the > Chiwere material we have here in our Language Center. I particular, > I > have sorted the Marsh database into a searchable format - there's a > sample below. > The reason I write in is to respond to Lance and his work on > coloring > books. I am developing kits and procedures for creating books. I > have > used picture dictionaries to create bound books. I have also > developed > some techniques for creating alphabet books and picture books from > scratch. I would like to share this stuff to see if it works, if > anyone > has any iterest. > Also, the best word lists may come from studies of langauge > acquisition. > This lead me to wonder if there are any studies of Siouan first > language > acquisition. > > Hartwell > > Would you like to search English or Chiwere? > en > Please type in the word: > > chief > THE CHIEF''S DAUGHTER, HIS SECOND DAUGHTER THAT IS (+WN. 2-3) > WA*'4'NE GI*HI NA'4HA* IYU*'J'NE MI*'4HA'4 NA'4HA* > > ONCE UPON A TIME A CHIEF THERE WAS, THEY SAY (+AGT. 1.1.8-9) > HA*'4WEYA'4 WA*'J'NE-GI'*HI IYA*'4 NA'4HA*N#E K'H"E > > CHIEF-+MAKER (MALE; FEMALE) > WA'NE*K'HIHI-+WAO'4; +WA'NE*K'HIHI-+WAO'4MI > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Apr 22 21:06:24 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 15:06:24 -0600 Subject: Tools for Creating Reading Materials In-Reply-To: <3AE0F8C3.6F8BF82E@ucla.edu> Message-ID: In the SIL/JAARS Notes on Conputing 2000 19.2, p. 42 PRIMER-TOOL ($23.00 to non-SIL members) "Book, Primer, A Tool for Developing Early Reading Materials, with software." ART-READ-CD ($35.00 to non-SIL members) "The Art of Reading: A Literacy Clip Art Library, CD-ROM collection of 4,300 royalty-free line drawings in PCX format by SIL and national artists from around the world, includes a graphics data manager allowing searching the collection by country and subject matter, requires Windows." You can reach them at: NOC, Box 248, Waxhaw, NC 28173-0248. NOC itself is $13.00 for 8 issues, printed 6-8 times a year and a very good reference for a computer-using linguist. JEK From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Apr 25 12:41:54 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:41:54 GMT Subject: Lakota demonstratives In-Reply-To: <90.126867b0.27fa7c81@aol.com> Message-ID: With regard to the relationship between demonstratives and personal pronouns Arabic has an element -k which stands for 2nd person object or possessive which also shows up in as a demonstrative component in dhaak 'that' and haak 'here it is, take it', hiic 'thus', hnaak 'there', which is as you relate. Of the 3rd person however, although it is often unmarked, the personal pronouns have an h- element hu 'he', hi 'she', hum 'they m.' and hin 'they f.' also object pronouns -ih 'him', -ha 'her' -hum 'them m.' and -hin 'them f.', and are 'thought to be' from old demonstratives. The demonstratives for 'this', 'these' etc do have an h- element too as in haadh 'this', haadhi 'this f.s.', haadhool 'these m.', haadhalli 'these f.', hnaa 'here' also in the hiic and haak mentioned above. (Najdi Arabic data). Bruce Date sent: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 21:08:17 EDT Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: Zylogy at aol.com To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Copies to: Zylogy at aol.com Subject: Re: Lakota demonstratives Any hints that le', he', ka' might go back to very widespread triplet T, K, KW for proximal, medial, distal (sometimes the latter two are interpreted as distal and irrealis, out of sight, etc.) in spatial demonstrative systems? If so, would there be any tendency to let the distal go first hierarchically, as there sometimes isn't any great need to let go of what isn't here and now, in view, etc.? Many languages have 1st and 2nd personal pronouns transparently derivative off the first two, but few (if any- none come immediately to mind) have any from the third. Maybe its just discourse factors, and the third/distal form tends to get lexicalized? Thoughts? Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From Zylogy at aol.com Wed Apr 25 12:08:31 2001 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 08:08:31 EDT Subject: Lakota demonstratives Message-ID: Since I posted previously I've been collecting demonstratives to look for regularities of the sort I was proposing (T, K, KW- but also note parallel vocalic versions I, A, U, as in Uto-Aztecan, and also proposed by others). There is quite a bit of variability in the particular systematizations, but all appear to be based on phonological feature oppositions taken binarily, in multidimensional closed figures taken geometrically. Articulatory position orally is only one possibility. Lots of languages utilize it as the basis for systematization. Others (such as North Wakashan), use manner features. What I find interesting here is that in a way such systematizations (as well as those associated with pronouns, kinship terms, color terms, etc.) can serve as kinds of "probes" to sort out the world-view/POV choices languages have made. It will then also be interesting if it turns out that the phonosemantic framework of expressive forms (and their diachronic lexicalizations) end up in some sort of balanced relation (which I expect to be true after examining several hundred languages- but only time and statistical analysis will tell). I'll list actual examples if anyone is interested, but I fear this is getting way off topic Siouan-wise (oh the pain, the pain). Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rgraczyk at aol.com Wed Apr 25 17:38:45 2001 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 13:38:45 EDT Subject: Ch.Orthography Message-ID: Unfortunately the Crow Bilingual Materials Development Center is no longer in existence, a casualty of the loss of federal funding. So the materials are no longer available. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Hartwell.Francis at colorado.edu Wed Apr 25 18:09:33 2001 From: Hartwell.Francis at colorado.edu (Hartwell Francis) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:09:33 -0600 Subject: creating materials Message-ID: In pursuing my interest in creating materials for literacy development I stumbled across Mallery's (1888-1889 Annual Report of the Bureau of Ethnology, vol 10) discussion of the Dakota Winter Counts. Winter Counts would make an interesting class module for 10-12 year olds - they could study Winter Counts and then create their own with the help of their elders. Anyway, Mallery's discussion is in English only. I have been wondering if there are published or written accounts of Winter Counts (wan'iyetu wo'wapi) in any Siouan languages. Also, I wonder how wide-spread the practice was. Mallery cites Lone-Dog 'Shunka-Ishnala' (Yanktonais), The-Flame 'Bo-i'-de' (near Fort Sully), The-Swan (Minneconjou Chief), Black-Bear 'Mato Sapa' (Minneconjou), and Battiste Good (Brule). Specifically, do the Chiwere keep Winter Counts? Hartwell From ioway at earthlink.net Thu Apr 26 00:16:30 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 18:16:30 -0600 Subject: creating materials Message-ID: Not that I have ever heard of Lance Hartwell Francis wrote: > In pursuing my interest in creating materials for literacy development I > stumbled across Mallery's (1888-1889 Annual Report of the Bureau of > Ethnology, vol 10) discussion of the Dakota Winter Counts. Winter Counts > would make an interesting class module for 10-12 year olds - they could > study Winter Counts and then create their own with the help of their > elders. > > Anyway, Mallery's discussion is in English only. I have been wondering > if there are published or written accounts of Winter Counts (wan'iyetu > wo'wapi) in any Siouan languages. Also, I wonder how wide-spread the > practice was. Mallery cites Lone-Dog 'Shunka-Ishnala' (Yanktonais), > The-Flame 'Bo-i'-de' (near Fort Sully), The-Swan (Minneconjou Chief), > Black-Bear 'Mato Sapa' (Minneconjou), and Battiste Good (Brule). > Specifically, do the Chiwere keep Winter Counts? > > Hartwell -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From jggoodtracks at juno.com Thu Apr 26 02:56:27 2001 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 21:56:27 -0500 Subject: creating materials Message-ID: Yes, IOM kept Winter Counts based on some event. Persons marked their birth by the year's event. See: Whitman, Wm. "The Otoe", CUCA:28. Columbia U. Press, NY. 1937. p.13. JGT On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:09:33 -0600 (MDT) Hartwell Francis writes: > In pursuing my interest in creating materials for literacy > development I > stumbled across Mallery's (1888-1889 Annual Report of the Bureau of > Ethnology, vol 10) discussion of the Dakota Winter Counts. Winter > Counts > would make an interesting class module for 10-12 year olds - they > could > study Winter Counts and then create their own with the help of their > elders. > > Anyway, Mallery's discussion is in English only. I have been > wondering > if there are published or written accounts of Winter Counts > (wan'iyetu > wo'wapi) in any Siouan languages. Also, I wonder how wide-spread > the > practice was. Mallery cites Lone-Dog 'Shunka-Ishnala' (Yanktonais), > The-Flame 'Bo-i'-de' (near Fort Sully), The-Swan (Minneconjou > Chief), > Black-Bear 'Mato Sapa' (Minneconjou), and Battiste Good (Brule). > Specifically, do the Chiwere keep Winter Counts? > > Hartwell > From ioway at earthlink.net Thu Apr 26 03:22:38 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 21:22:38 -0600 Subject: creating materials Message-ID: Did Whitman list any of the IOM Winter Counts or give examples of said years? Or was it just the Otoe? It would be really cool to learn more about this! Lance Jimm G GoodTracks wrote: > Yes, IOM kept Winter Counts based on some event. Persons marked their > birth by the year's event. > See: Whitman, Wm. "The Otoe", CUCA:28. Columbia U. Press, NY. 1937. > p.13. > JGT > > On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:09:33 -0600 (MDT) Hartwell Francis > writes: > > In pursuing my interest in creating materials for literacy > > development I > > stumbled across Mallery's (1888-1889 Annual Report of the Bureau of > > Ethnology, vol 10) discussion of the Dakota Winter Counts. Winter > > Counts > > would make an interesting class module for 10-12 year olds - they > > could > > study Winter Counts and then create their own with the help of their > > elders. > > > > Anyway, Mallery's discussion is in English only. I have been > > wondering > > if there are published or written accounts of Winter Counts > > (wan'iyetu > > wo'wapi) in any Siouan languages. Also, I wonder how wide-spread > > the > > practice was. Mallery cites Lone-Dog 'Shunka-Ishnala' (Yanktonais), > > The-Flame 'Bo-i'-de' (near Fort Sully), The-Swan (Minneconjou > > Chief), > > Black-Bear 'Mato Sapa' (Minneconjou), and Battiste Good (Brule). > > Specifically, do the Chiwere keep Winter Counts? > > > > Hartwell > > -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Mon Apr 30 13:41:32 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 13:41:32 GMT Subject: Lakota demonstratives In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A44144E@skylark.mail.ukans.edu> Message-ID: 'yon' is (or was as I had an aunt who spoke that way) quite widely used in northern dialects of British English and I think in South Western rural dialects too. Date sent: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:30:07 -0500 Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: "'siouan at lists.colorado.edu '" Subject: RE: Lakota demonstratives >I wonder, is "yonder" a frequent word in present-day American English? It certainly is for me, as a Southerner. But it is regional. And I don't use the adjectival "yon" nor the temporal "yore" at all. bob Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From pustet at babel.Colorado.EDU Mon Apr 2 23:38:07 2001 From: pustet at babel.Colorado.EDU (regina pustet) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 17:38:07 -0600 Subject: Lakota demonstratives Message-ID: Dear Siouanists: Obviously, there are three demonstratives in Lakota: le' 'this, he' 'that', and ka' 'that over yonder' (Boas & Deloria 1941:114). However, in the large body of Lakota texts I have compiled about five years ago, there is not a single instance of ka' occurring as a demonstrative, either with or without a head noun. ka' is used as an adverb meaning 'over yonder' though. What's going on? Dialectal variation? (My speakers are from Pine Ridge and Rosebud.) Or is ka' going out of use, perhaps under the influence of English, which does not have a triple distinction of demonstratives? Do comparative Siouan data shed some more light on the issue? Regina From Zylogy at aol.com Tue Apr 3 01:08:17 2001 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 21:08:17 EDT Subject: Lakota demonstratives Message-ID: Any hints that le', he', ka' might go back to very widespread triplet T, K, KW for proximal, medial, distal (sometimes the latter two are interpreted as distal and irrealis, out of sight, etc.) in spatial demonstrative systems? If so, would there be any tendency to let the distal go first hierarchically, as there sometimes isn't any great need to let go of what isn't here and now, in view, etc.? Many languages have 1st and 2nd personal pronouns transparently derivative off the first two, but few (if any- none come immediately to mind) have any from the third. Maybe its just discourse factors, and the third/distal form tends to get lexicalized? Thoughts? Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 3 03:14:33 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:14:33 -0500 Subject: Lakota demonstratives Message-ID: >Obviously, there are three demonstratives in Lakota: le' 'this, he' >'that', and ka' 'that over yonder' >Do comparative Siouan data shed some more light on the >issue? In most Siouan languages the three seem to be reflexes of Proto Siouan proximate: *re ~ *Re (Dakotan from the latter) distal: *$e out of sight: *ka aforementioned: *?e: At least one Dakotan dialect (Stoney?) has /z^e/ (old notes I have from Allan Taylor) for the distal rather than /he/. I don't know where /he/ comes from. The local reflexes of /ka/ seem to be productive in Dhegiha dialects, but I'm afraid I don't know anything more about the Dakotan forms. Bob P.S. Have you returned from RCLT in Melbourne or not gone yet? From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 3 03:19:52 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:19:52 -0500 Subject: Lakota demonstratives Message-ID: >Any hints that le', he', ka' might go back to very widespread triplet T, >K, KW for proximal, medial, distal (sometimes the latter two are >interpreted as distal and irrealis, out of sight, etc.) in spatial >demonstrative systems? Jess, No. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 3 14:41:34 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 08:41:34 -0600 Subject: Lakota demonstratives In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A441446@skylark.mail.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Apr 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > In most Siouan languages the three seem to be reflexes of Proto Siouan > > proximate: *re ~ *Re (Dakotan from the latter) > distal: *$e > out of sight: *ka > > aforementioned: *?e: > > At least one Dakotan dialect (Stoney?) has /z^e/ (old notes I have from > Allan Taylor) for the distal rather than /he/. I don't know where /he/ comes > from. The local reflexes of /ka/ seem to be productive in Dhegiha dialects, > but I'm afraid I don't know anything more about the Dakotan forms. My impression is that all of the grades were reasonably productive in Omaha-Ponca c. 1900 and still are, along with du, s^u, and gu, which are used with motion verbs and elsewhere in parallel with the dhe, s^e, ga set. The e 'aforementioned' (or maybe it's just the independent third person pronoun), is also common. There are a number of ways to shade the meaning of the dhe/s^e/ga set with what look like verbs of motion, e.g., ga, gahi, gahidhe. I tend to think of the du/s^u/gu set as somewhat like Spanish aca, alla. At one point I thought that the Dakota he forms might match the Dhegiha s^e forms involving a sound correspondence also illustrated in the second person of 'to say', e.g., Da ehe, OP es^e 'you say', perhaps *s^h, but Stoney z^e, compared with OP s^e, Winnebago z^ee seems to suggest not. As Bob points out, that leaves he unaccounted for. JEK From mosind at yahoo.com Tue Apr 3 20:18:42 2001 From: mosind at yahoo.com (Wablenica) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 00:18:42 +0400 Subject: Lakota demonstratives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Talking about "ka-" demonstratives, they are not widely used in Deloria's Dakota Texts either. Here are the frequencies: he' - le' - ka' - 712 : 233 : 20 hena' - lena' - kana' 137 : 30 : 2 he'l - le'l - ka'l 94 : 45 : 35 he'tu - le'tu - ka'tu 7 : 4 : 1 he'cha - le'cha 41 : 0 he'chel - le'chel - ka'khel 101 : 48 : 39 he'checa - le'checa - kakheca 10 : 3 : 0 he'chetu - le'chetu - ka'khetu 39 : 1 : 0 he'chiya - le'chiya - ka'khiya 28 : 6 : 12 I wonder, is "yonder" a frequent word in present-day American English? Connie. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Tue Apr 3 20:41:47 2001 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 14:41:47 -0600 Subject: Lakota demonstratives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think Connie has put his finger on the source of the "problem" here -- there is simply far less reason to use "ka" in narrative than to use the others. Although I don't think "yonder" is a part of the demonstrative system of English, the question he poses is the right one -- when do you need that third degree of distance? I think it's significant that the instances of "kakhiya" are among the most frequent -- one does talk about going _to_ far places more often than about things you can't see or know about _in_ far places. I am reminded of a paper (unpublished) that expressed surprise at an absence of second person verb forms in a body of expository prose, and concluded that the language was losing its second person pronouns. Probably I'm only repeating the obvious here, for which I apologize, but note that "le" and "ka" are highly marked in the sense that they carry a lot of information about the locus of their head; "he" is neutral and the unmarked form in the set. After you've pointed something out with either "le" or "ka", you use "he" afterwards, almost like a definite article. And the number of times that you need to point out something close to you and your interlocutor is much greater than the number of times you point out something that's far from both of you. So I would blame the frequency discrepancy on discourse pragmatics rather than any kind of breakdown in the system. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado Campus Box 295 Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Wablenica wrote: > Talking about "ka-" demonstratives, they are not widely used in Deloria's > Dakota Texts either. > Here are the frequencies: > > he' - le' - ka' - 712 : 233 : 20 > hena' - lena' - kana' 137 : 30 : 2 > he'l - le'l - ka'l 94 : 45 : 35 > he'tu - le'tu - ka'tu 7 : 4 : 1 > he'cha - le'cha 41 : 0 > he'chel - le'chel - ka'khel 101 : 48 : 39 > he'checa - le'checa - kakheca 10 : 3 : 0 > he'chetu - le'chetu - ka'khetu 39 : 1 : 0 > he'chiya - le'chiya - ka'khiya 28 : 6 : 12 > > I wonder, is "yonder" a frequent word in present-day American English? > > Connie. > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From Zylogy at aol.com Tue Apr 3 20:44:49 2001 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 16:44:49 EDT Subject: Lakota demonstratives Message-ID: I've been interested in the structure and function of elaborated demonstrative systems for some time- English used to have a much fuller system which included: whither hither thither whence hence thence what ? that which ? this when ? then where here there etc. was yonder part of the first series? But then the lexicalized be-yond still finds use. Perhaps the establishment of systems of roads and increase in less landmark-based navigation strategies are part of what drives such elaborated spatial/temporal demonstrative systems to simpler series- just as elaborated sets of pronominal or address terms can become reduced once rank and face become less important in social intercourse. Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Tue Apr 3 21:01:22 2001 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 15:01:22 -0600 Subject: Lakota demonstratives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado Campus Box 295 Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Tue, 3 Apr 2001 Zylogy at aol.com wrote: > I've been interested in the structure and function of elaborated > demonstrative systems for some time- English used to have a much fuller > system which included: > > whither hither thither > whence hence thence > what ? that > which ? this > when ? then > where here there I think this English system is not of demonstratives (which have only two positions in English, this and that), but of locatives -- the contrast you show in the others is of interrogative/assertive, not of distance (and I'm curious about the equasion of which and this -- is that historically accurate???). Germanic languages have always been hung up on the difference between location in and motion toward; note that we've replaced "whence" with "where from", "whither" with "where (to)" and "where" with "where at" colloquially, maintaining the semantic differences of the older system with new forms. I'm told that both Japanese and Spanish have a 3-way distinction in demonstratives like the Lakhota one -- is the "furthest" form in those languages distributed equally with the other two? DAvid > > etc. was yonder part of the first series? But then the lexicalized be-yond > still finds use. Perhaps the establishment of systems of roads and increase > in less landmark-based navigation strategies are part of what drives such > elaborated spatial/temporal demonstrative systems to simpler series- just as > elaborated sets of pronominal or address terms can become reduced once rank > and face become less important in social intercourse. > > Jess Tauber > zylogy at aol.com > From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 3 22:30:07 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:30:07 -0500 Subject: Lakota demonstratives Message-ID: >I wonder, is "yonder" a frequent word in present-day American English? It certainly is for me, as a Southerner. But it is regional. And I don't use the adjectival "yon" nor the temporal "yore" at all. bob From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 3 22:48:49 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:48:49 -0500 Subject: Lakota demonstratives Message-ID: whither hither thither whence hence thence what ? that which ? this when ? then where here there >etc. was yonder part of the first series? But then the lexicalized >be-yond still finds use.] I think the earlier system was: here, there, yonder this, that, yon now, then, (yore??) I'm not certain that "yore" was really the third member of the "now-then" series, but it fits in there somewhere. I'd like you to think I know this from reading Shakespeare, but it really began from reading Robin Hood. Are there good Germanic cognates for these? Lots of languages have three terms, but their semantics often doesn't match exactly. In marginal cases I always seemed to use "este, ese, aquel" wrong in Spanish. In some Siouan languages the third term supposedly represents only objects that are out of sight, but in Spanish and English they can just be "farther away" than those objects represented by the second term. Bob Bob Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 3 23:12:00 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:12:00 -0600 Subject: Lakota demonstratives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > On Tue, 3 Apr 2001 Zylogy at aol.com wrote: > > whither hither thither > > whence hence thence > > what *this* that > > which ? ~this~ > > when ? then > > where here there > > I think this English system is not of demonstratives (which have only > two positions in English, this and that), but of locatives -- the > contrast you show in the others is of interrogative/assertive, not of > distance (and I'm curious about the equasion of which and this -- is > that historically accurate???). Germanic languages have always been > hung up on the difference between location in and motion toward; note > that we've replaced "whence" with "where from", "whither" with "where > (to)" and "where" with "where at" colloquially, maintaining the > semantic differences of the older system with new forms. 'This' is the proximal demonstrative. "Which' is, I think, derived from the 'of two' series of demonstratives in PIE, and doesn't associate with 'this' properly speaking. So it's this : that : yon (quite obsolete), and hither : thither : yonder or maybe here : there : yonder or both? Yonder is also obsolete, but more often used for effect. Locatives are often, not always, based on or paired with demonstrative stems. Many languages have considerably more elaborate schemes, but of deixis and of adverbial/adjectival derivation from deictic stems. Siouan strikes me as being about on a part with older IE languages, like Latin. The patterns involved are often spoken of a "tables of correlatives." > I'm told that both Japanese and Spanish have a 3-way distinction > in demonstratives like the Lakhota one -- is the "furthest" form in those > languages distributed equally with the other two? Spanish (I think): Demonstratives: este ese aquel Locative: aqui alli ahi aca alla aya JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 3 23:12:49 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:12:49 -0600 Subject: Lakota demonstratives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Apr 2001 Zylogy at aol.com wrote: > I've been interested in the structure and function of elaborated > demonstrative systems for some time- English used to have a much fuller > system ... OK, I gave up. :-) JEK From pustet at babel.Colorado.EDU Wed Apr 4 00:12:37 2001 From: pustet at babel.Colorado.EDU (regina pustet) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 18:12:37 -0600 Subject: Lakota demonstratives Message-ID: Regarding Connie's message, I have the follwoing frequencies for that part of my Lakota texts that I have sampled: he' : le' : ka' 370 : 164 : 0 hena' : lena' : kana' 154 : 83 : 0 The values match Connie's results for the Deloria texts. Taking just the values for he'/hena' and le'/lena', the ratios are: Deloria he' : le' 75% : 25% hena' : lena' 82% : 18% my texts he' : le' 69% : 31% hena' : lena' 65% : 35% Well, the match is apparently more pronounced for the singular forms. Regarding David's first message: > -- when do you > need that third degree of distance? It all depends on the semantics/pragmatics of the system. Many languages have a three-way distinction in the demonstrative system, and the exact functions of the demonstratives involved do not necessarily overlap, as David, Bob, and John have already pointed out in the discussion. So what if ka' expresses a degree of proximity that at least partly overlaps with the semantic range of English 'that'? Then there would be as much motivation for using ka' in narratives as there is motivation for using 'that' in English. And ka' does occur in the older texts, as Connie's text counts show; it's not exactly frequent, but it's there. Maybe it's just a coincidence that my speakers didn't use ka' -- the next thing to do is ask them if they find the combination of head nound plus ka' acceptable at all. Regina From mosind at yahoo.com Wed Apr 4 03:20:34 2001 From: mosind at yahoo.com (Wablenica) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 07:20:34 +0400 Subject: Lakota demonstratives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of regina pustet Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 4:13 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Lakota demonstratives Regarding Connie's message, I have the follwoing frequencies for that part of my Lakota texts that I have sampled: he' : le' : ka' 370 : 164 : 0 hena' : lena' : kana' 154 : 83 : 0 --------------- Analysis a sample from Bushotter texts (1880s) yielded the following results: he' : le' : ka' 302 : 95 : 2 hena' : lena' : kana' 196 : 34 : 0 (Sorry, I couldn't filter out he' "horn(s); stands" and le' "you-go") The instances of kakhel (33) and kakhiya (8) are rather high. However it is not unprobable that the the system is deteriorating. The Ed Starrs articles of the 90s (4700 words) also have no instance of ka/kana. Perhaps it is to the point: Bushotter (63 texts out of 250) has a couple of instances of ahituNwaN "to look in this direction" verb, together with 26 e'tuNwaN (< ai-tuNwaN) "look in that direction", Deloria (64 texts) has no instance of ahituNwaN: e'tuNwaN is used both in "ekta' e'tuNwe" and "e'l e'tuNwe" cases. Connie. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From voorhis at mb.sympatico.ca Thu Apr 5 18:38:05 2001 From: voorhis at mb.sympatico.ca (voorhis at mb.sympatico.ca) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 13:38:05 -0500 Subject: Lakota demonstratives Message-ID: ROOD DAVID S wrote: > > I think Connie has put his finger on the source of the "problem" here -- > there is simply far less reason to use "ka" in narrative than to use the > others. > .... I would blame the frequency discrepancy on discourse pragmatics > rather than any kind of breakdown in the system. For what it's worth, local (= southern Manitoba) Dakota speakers (not Lakota) have told me that "ka" is always accompanied by pointing, so that it now seems to mean not so much 'that far away' as 'look, that one I'm pointing at'. Such a usage would certainly preclude its appearance in narratives except in quotations. This would seem to be a change in the system, rather than a breakdown. Has anyone encountered this elsewhere? Paul From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 9 07:10:50 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 01:10:50 -0600 Subject: This and That Message-ID: A small aside on Gemranic demonstratives. I thought we didn't do them linguistic justice as we mentioned them in passing. I should warn you all that I am not a Germanist, even if I now venture to play one on the Internet. I consulted two standard grammars of Old English, (1) Bright and (2) Moore and Knott. Interestingly, neither mentioned yon at all. I then checked Webster's Collegiate and Prokosch's Comparative Germanic Grammar with rather more luck. The cognate of yon in German is jener, also the remote demonstrative. I'm not sure how common it is. From the omission of OE geon(d) (ancestor of yon - the g was soft: pronounced as y) in OE grammars it appears that yon has been "obs./dial." for a very long time in English, however, suggesting that it has always been somewhere between unknown and infrequent. It may be only chance that it isn't well known in standard dialects. Note that OE student dictonaries do list geond, in the adverbial/prepositional senses of 'throughout, as far as, all over'. That would interest Wes Jones, I think, who argues that demonstratives and adpositions are also related in Siouan languages. Or perhaps the inspiration comes out of his background as a Germanist. (Not to mention various cognate sets.) The here/there/where forms are from locative adverbs her/thaer/hwaer, which I believe most originally have been case forms of (1) he/heo/hit 'he/she/it', (2) the demonstrative se/seo/that 'that (male)/that (female)/that (neuter)', and (3) the interrogative stems hwa/hwaet 'who/what', respectively. In regard to the second, OE retained the PIE mixture of *s- and *t- (th- in Germanic) demonstratives that occurs in Greek ho/he/ton (*s > h). Modern English has lost the s-forms. These forms had corresponding 'motion towards' and 'motion from' forms, hider/thider/hwider and heonan/thanan/hwanan. Note that forms like hinder 'to behind' and nither 'to beneath' also existed, though in these the d and th are part of the stem. The others have -der corresponding to the -ter in Latin comparatives, etc., I think. These would lead to hinder and nether, of course. Hwaether meant 'which of two'. It looks like yonder might be yond-er, rather than yon-der, though it's hard (for me) to say. It seems that Webster's believes that yore is from gear 'year'. There was, however, an adverb geo 'formerly, of old'. which might be relevant. It seems that gear had reference in OE to both 'year' and 'past'. For that matter, it might also mean 'summer', interesting in connection with Siouan 'winter counts', which, incidentally, it occurs to me, is the English usage for the various chronologies painted on hide used among Dakotan groups. Presumably Dakotan or Plains sign language, general English-Native American pidgin usage underlies this. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 9 17:22:54 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 11:22:54 -0600 Subject: Demonstratives Message-ID: I'm not sure why the list processing software bounced this post from Rory Larson. Let's see if it'll take it from me. >>From rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu Mon Apr 9 09:34:24 2001 I believe "jener" is moderately common in German; it's certainly one of the basic words used in texts to illustrate declensional paradigms. "Dieser" is the proximate form. I can't recall that they have an intermediate form other than the definite article itself used as a demonstrative. Does this sound right? In English, we normally restrict ourselves to a two-level system: "this" = "look toward the speaker"; and "that" = "look away from the speaker". The Siouan languages have a three-level system, e.g. Lakhota: le / he / ka, or Omaha: dhe / she / ga. Could we reasonably gloss these as: le / dhe = "look toward the speaker"; he / she = "look toward the listener, or to an item the listener is familiar with"; ka / ga = "look away from both the speaker and the listener" ? If so, would this be the general rule for three-level demonstrative systems? (If this has all just been discussed, I apologize-- I just got on the list and haven't gone through the archives yet.) Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 9 18:08:31 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 12:08:31 -0600 Subject: Demonstratives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>From rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu Mon Apr 9 09:34:24 2001 > In English, we normally restrict ourselves to a two-level system: > "this" = "look toward the speaker"; and "that" = "look away from > the speaker". The Siouan languages have a three-level system, > e.g. Lakhota: le / he / ka, or Omaha: dhe / she / ga. Could we > reasonably gloss these as: le / dhe = "look toward the speaker"; > he / she = "look toward the listener, or to an item the listener is > familiar with"; ka / ga = "look away from both the speaker and > the listener" ? The 'located relative to you' sense of s^e seems very strong in OP, at least to judge from the glosses in Dorsey. Use of the related s^u form as proclitic with motion verbs to form an intermediate set 'toward you' opposed to the regular 'to here' and 'to there' forms is also fairly pronounced. There are a lot of examples of this for OP because of the number of letters recorded in OP. Note that in the context of these letters s^u definitely can refer to someone out of sight and far away. It is possible to use du and gu with motion verbs, too, but this is much less common, and most tokens of these are as conversational pronominals and directionals, du=akha 'hither-the', du=adi 'this direction', etc. There's some waffling on whether du/gu need -a- before =di. I've also seen gu=di ga hau! '(go) that way IMPERATIVE'. For the comparativists, the expected form dhu corresponding to dhe occurs as a locative suffix, mostly with dhe, e.g., dhedhu=di (often dheu(=di)). The form used in analogy with dhe in the "u" series is du. The regular correspondent of Lakota le would be *ne, not found (dhe occurs instead), and the analogical *nu is also not found (du occurs instead), so du doesn't seem to revert to a more regular or less reduced initial than dhe. There are traces of "o" or "u" vowel demonstratives in other Siouan languages, e.g., Winnebago. The main s^u-motion verb instance that I noticed in fieldword (s^u=dhe 'to go toward you') occurred when there was a power failure at the school that left the interior room full of elders where I was working completely blacked out. The supervisor (WW) of the group stood up and maneuvered through the darkened room to open the door, announcing as he came "s^u'=bdhe! s^u'=bdhe!" or 'I am going to you, I am going to you'. I've also noticed that the s^e demonstrative is common as story enders, e.g., s^e'=naN 'so many wrt you', s^e'=thaN 'so far wrt you'. I take this is a sort of listener orientation or involvements strategy with the implicit references being to the words or incidents of the story and to the progression of the plot or story cycle. This is from Dorsey, primarily, not personal experience. I'm inclined to suggest that in the OP context s^e/s^u is the added axis, as it were, and that the basic spatial references are dhe and ga. I noticed in eliciting demonstratives that Omaha speakers felt no need to map dhe/ga to the English set in my stylized way. I was told flatly that ga was this and dhe was that. I fell back in disarray for the moment and later concluded without having a chance to investigate further that the pragmatics of using the OP demonstratives were sufficiently distinct from those of English that speakers did not see the analogical mapping that linguists did. I had already noticed a similar disjunction between linguistic glossing of motion verbs and speaker glossing in translations. Putting it another way, linguists gloss these terms the way they do because they see some general analogy between this/that and dhe/ga (etc.), but I hypothesize that speakers know that in practical use dhe maps to both this and that and ga to both this and that, depending on the context and lack any presumption, for example, that dhe is primarily or prototypically equivalent to this. Or, on the other hand, it might have been a shifter problem: my 'this' was the speaker's ga. > If so, would this be the general rule for three-level demonstrative > systems? (If this has all just been discussed, I apologize-- I just > got on the list and haven't gone through the archives yet.) It's been alluded to in passing only. Actually the basis distinctions among terms in demonstrative sets with more than one terms is fairly variable, though proximal vs. distal is common for two terms. A third, more distal term might involve person, distance, visibility, time, death, or other factors. I'm afraid I'm not actually able to suggest any typological studies. Anyone? From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Tue Apr 10 08:10:34 2001 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 03:10:34 -0500 Subject: Demonstratives Message-ID: I can offer only a few anectodal examples of uses of gu- I've recently heard in Ponca. I'm told that the phrase "Guda, guda, guda!" (roughly, "Watch out! Get out of the way!") is very useful in shinny games. Also, recently at a sermon by the minister of the Ponca Holiness Church, in which he interspersed Ponca with English, he addressed the devil with the command, "Gudiha maNdhiNga!" (translated later for me by the minister as "Get the hell out of here!"). By the way, I happened to hear at the same sermon a seemingly rare example of the second person form addressed to God, "Egis^e...." ("That's what you've said...."), the first person form egiphe ("Thus I said...") being more common in my experience. S^aN ("enough, finished") is often used to end prayers or talks, but so far I haven't heard s^enaN or s^edhaN. However, very little spoken Ponca is heard nowadays in Oklahoma, which is why you'll have to forgive me if I'm rhapsodizing about the few phrases that I do hear in public speeches or conversations! Kathy Shea ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 1:08 PM Subject: Re: Demonstratives > >From rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu Mon Apr 9 09:34:24 2001 > > In English, we normally restrict ourselves to a two-level system: > > "this" = "look toward the speaker"; and "that" = "look away from > > the speaker". The Siouan languages have a three-level system, > > e.g. Lakhota: le / he / ka, or Omaha: dhe / she / ga. Could we > > reasonably gloss these as: le / dhe = "look toward the speaker"; > > he / she = "look toward the listener, or to an item the listener is > > familiar with"; ka / ga = "look away from both the speaker and > > the listener" ? > > The 'located relative to you' sense of s^e seems very strong in OP, at > least to judge from the glosses in Dorsey. Use of the related s^u form as > proclitic with motion verbs to form an intermediate set 'toward you' > opposed to the regular 'to here' and 'to there' forms is also fairly > pronounced. There are a lot of examples of this for OP because of the > number of letters recorded in OP. Note that in the context of these > letters s^u definitely can refer to someone out of sight and far away. > It is possible to use du and gu with motion verbs, too, but this is much > less common, and most tokens of these are as conversational pronominals > and directionals, du=akha 'hither-the', du=adi 'this direction', etc. > There's some waffling on whether du/gu need -a- before =di. I've also > seen gu=di ga hau! '(go) that way IMPERATIVE'. > > For the comparativists, the expected form dhu corresponding to dhe occurs > as a locative suffix, mostly with dhe, e.g., dhedhu=di (often dheu(=di)). > The form used in analogy with dhe in the "u" series is du. The regular > correspondent of Lakota le would be *ne, not found (dhe occurs instead), > and the analogical *nu is also not found (du occurs instead), so du > doesn't seem to revert to a more regular or less reduced initial than dhe. > There are traces of "o" or "u" vowel demonstratives in other Siouan > languages, e.g., Winnebago. > > The main s^u-motion verb instance that I noticed in fieldword (s^u=dhe 'to > go toward you') occurred when there was a power failure at the school that > left the interior room full of elders where I was working completely > blacked out. The supervisor (WW) of the group stood up and maneuvered > through the darkened room to open the door, announcing as he came > "s^u'=bdhe! s^u'=bdhe!" or 'I am going to you, I am going to you'. > > I've also noticed that the s^e demonstrative is common as story enders, > e.g., s^e'=naN 'so many wrt you', s^e'=thaN 'so far wrt you'. I take this > is a sort of listener orientation or involvements strategy with the > implicit references being to the words or incidents of the story and to > the progression of the plot or story cycle. This is from Dorsey, > primarily, not personal experience. > > I'm inclined to suggest that in the OP context s^e/s^u is the added > axis, as it were, and that the basic spatial references are dhe and ga. > > I noticed in eliciting demonstratives that Omaha speakers felt no need to > map dhe/ga to the English set in my stylized way. I was told flatly that > ga was this and dhe was that. I fell back in disarray for the moment and > later concluded without having a chance to investigate further that the > pragmatics of using the OP demonstratives were sufficiently distinct from > those of English that speakers did not see the analogical mapping that > linguists did. I had already noticed a similar disjunction between > linguistic glossing of motion verbs and speaker glossing in translations. > Putting it another way, linguists gloss these terms the way they do > because they see some general analogy between this/that and dhe/ga (etc.), > but I hypothesize that speakers know that in practical use dhe maps to > both this and that and ga to both this and that, depending on the context > and lack any presumption, for example, that dhe is primarily or > prototypically equivalent to this. > > Or, on the other hand, it might have been a shifter problem: my 'this' > was the speaker's ga. > > > If so, would this be the general rule for three-level demonstrative > > systems? (If this has all just been discussed, I apologize-- I just > > got on the list and haven't gone through the archives yet.) > > It's been alluded to in passing only. Actually the basis distinctions > among terms in demonstrative sets with more than one terms is fairly > variable, though proximal vs. distal is common for two terms. A third, > more distal term might involve person, distance, visibility, time, death, > or other factors. I'm afraid I'm not actually able to suggest any > typological studies. Anyone? > From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Tue Apr 10 08:39:25 2001 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 03:39:25 -0500 Subject: Lakota demonstratives Message-ID: > > I'm told that both Japanese and Spanish have a 3-way distinction > > in demonstratives like the Lakhota one -- is the "furthest" form in those > > languages distributed equally with the other two? > > Spanish (I think): > > Demonstratives: este ese aquel > Locative: aqui alli ahi > aca alla aya > > JEK I checked with a native speaker of Mexican Spanish, Ivonne Heinz, who is a graduate student in linguistics here at the University of Kansas. She seems to have a two-way system. She says that she uses both aqui and ahi frequently and alli very infrequently, all referring to a location. (She said she thinks she uses alli in response to questions, when someone asks about something specific.) She uses aca and alla for motion towards a location and says that aya doesn't exist as far as she knows. (I'm not sure that there would be a difference in pronunciation anyway, at least in Mexican Spanish, between alla and aya.) Aqui and aca indicate, respectively, location at and motion towards a nearby place, and ahi and alla indicate, respectively, location at and motion towards a distant place. Kathy Shea From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu Tue Apr 10 19:51:34 2001 From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:51:34 -0500 Subject: Sacred Syllable Message-ID: I think this is something of interest that I have not found elsewhere: In battle when a great feat is accomplished, and the "holiness" of the event requires a cessation of hostilities out of respect, a "holy syllable" is uttered -- gu. When anyone says gu, the battle comes to an abrupt end. I have found reference to this in more than one Winnebago story. Has anyone heard of this in other Siouan traditions? Does anyone have an idea of the origin of this word in that role? From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Apr 11 18:37:06 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:37:06 -0500 Subject: This and That Message-ID: This Germanic sideline has been very interesting. Most of you may be familiar with _The American Heritage Dictionary of Indo-European Roots_, but if not, plunk down the $16 or so for the new (pb) edition and get sucked in. It's an offshoot of the big _Amer. Her. Dict._ (now in 4th ed.), so it stresses the Germanic roots (and in fact cites only roots with reflexes in Eng.), but it's loaded with fascinating general IE stuff. The big dict., incidentally, is an excellent etymological resource. It and the Random House Unabridged (along with Onions' _Oxf. Dict. of Eng. Etym._) are my favorites for etymology. The OED leaves much to be desired as to etym., but that is being rectified in spades in the present revision. And don't forget the OED Online (http://www.oed.com/) which is being updated quarterly. Most universities have (or should have!) institutional subscriptions. From rankin at ku.edu Wed Apr 11 19:30:06 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:30:06 -0500 Subject: This and That Message-ID: Q. Is this a revised edition or just reprint (since I have an earlier version)?? Bob > This Germanic sideline has been very interesting. Most of you may be > familiar with _The American Heritage Dictionary of > Indo-European Roots_, > but if not, plunk down the $16 or so for the new (pb) edition and get > sucked in.... From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Apr 11 20:02:23 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:02:23 -0500 Subject: This and That Message-ID: > Q. Is this a revised edition or just reprint (since I have an earlier > version)?? Yes, it's the new (2d) ed. published in 2000, "fully revised and updated" (149 pp. compared with 113). One major improvement is in the treatment of laryngeals. Alan From jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu Thu Apr 12 20:24:31 2001 From: jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu (John P. Boyle) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 14:24:31 -0600 Subject: Siouan and Caddoan Conference Message-ID: >John -- > I'm starting to think about the Siouan/Caddoan conference and a >possible presentation, along with attempts to encourage some of my >students to participate. Do you have any more conference details yet -- >e.g.should we plan to arrive Thurs. evening instead of Fri. morning, can >we plan on going away Sunday morning rather than Sat. afternoon/evening >(Sat night stay for plane fares), will we be in one place more or less >all the time, or would a rental car be a useful investment, etc.? > Looking forward to it -- > Best, > David Dear Everyone, David sent me this e-mail and I thought that I'd best answer to the entire list just in case others had been wondering the same thing. The conference is scheduled for June 15-16 (Friday and Saturday). If people interested in coming could let me know if they would like to give a paper at the conference that would help. I think that the conference will take up most of the two days, as usual. I'd recommend getting into Chicago on Thursday night and leaving on Sunday. That would be the most optimal. However, if you need to leave Saturday night that will probably work as well. I was wondering if people might like to go out to dinner somewhere either Friday or Saturday night? As far as places to stay in and around the University there are three: The Wooded Isle - This is an apartment complex that rents out studios and one bedrooms to visiting people. Their phone number is 773-288-5578 and they are located at 5750 South Stony island Ave. It is very close to the University and it would be the place that I would recommend first. The drawback is that they only have nine rooms. The I-House (International House) - This is a student dorm that rents out rooms to visiting students (as well as others). It is cheap and very close to the conference site, however it is rather Spartan. The phone number is 773-753-2270 and it is located at 1414 East 59th Street. The Ramada Inn - This is a Ramada Inn (what more can I say). It is located at 4900 South Lake Shore Drive and the phone number is 773-288-5800. It is quite a walk from the University and if you stay there I would recommend renting a car. Hyde Park also has about three Bed and Breakfasts. If you're interested let me know and I'll get the information to you. Renting a car is optional but it is probably a good idea, especially if there is a group of you. The conference will take place at the University of Chicago and if we want to go someplace we can either car pool or take public transportation. Cab rides from O'Hare to the University cost about $40.00 with tip and from Midway airport to the University the cost is about $20.00 with tip. Chicago also has a good public transportation system with buses and trains that can get you almost anywhere. Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions. I encourage everyone to present a paper and to encourage their students to present papers. I'll put out a more official call around April 30 (CLS is next week and that is going to keep me busy until then). I'd like at least a paper title and possibly a short abstract. The conference is being cosponsored by CLS (the Chicago Linguistic Society) and the Native American Student Association. I don't quite know what that entails yet but we here at Chicago are really looking forward to it. If anyone has any questions please let me know. Best wishes, John P. Boyle Department of Linguistics University of Chicago From rankin at ku.edu Fri Apr 13 00:03:12 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 19:03:12 -0500 Subject: Siouan demonstratives. Message-ID: All, I was going through some of my old computer files and, since we were talking about the deictic system in several of the languages, thought I'd pass along this handout I did for a course on the Siouan language family I taught here at KU several years back. I hope the Colorado list server accepts attachments. The attachment is a microsoft Word for Windows file using John Koontz' Siouan SIL-Doulos font for the PC. I will try to send it in .rtf format. That way it may be possible for those of you using MAC's to read it. For those who cannot, I apologize; this is the best I can do. As you'll see, the file just gives some cognate sets. It does not cover the things we've been talking about on the list -- usage and nuances of meaning. I hope it will stimulate more discussion. Bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: deictic2.rtf Type: application/octet-stream Size: 10828 bytes Desc: not available URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Apr 15 00:51:52 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 18:51:52 -0600 Subject: Lakota demonstratives In-Reply-To: <001801c0c199$c0901900$220aed81@9afl3> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Apr 2001, Kathleen Shea wrote: > > Spanish (I think): > > > > Demonstratives: este ese aquel > > Locative: aqui alli ahi Based on dictionary definitins, I seem to have gotten alli and ahi reversed! It should be: este ese aquel aqui ahi alli aca ? alla I can't find any trace of *aya. (I think it was a ghost doublet of alla, as Kathy Shea more or less suggested politely.) I can't find any trace of a form -a corresponding to ahi. The directional sense of alla is apparently fairly weak. It is said to be more remote or less specific than alli. Note that for many purposes este and aquel are normally paired, e.g., as 'the latter' vs. 'the former'. Bringing things back to Native American languages, there is comparative summary of 'Inacessible and Absentative Inflections in Algonquian' by David Pentland in Algonquian and Iroquoian Linguistics 25.3:25-26 (2000). These are somewhat comparable to the remote category of demonstratives and can be paired with demonstratives. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Apr 15 01:00:53 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 19:00:53 -0600 Subject: Sacred Syllable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Apr 2001, Richard L. Dieterle wrote: > I think this is something of interest that I have not found elsewhere: > In battle when a great feat is accomplished, and the "holiness" of the > event requires a cessation of hostilities out of respect, a "holy > syllable" is uttered -- gu. When anyone says gu, the battle comes to > an abrupt end. I have found reference to this in more than one > Winnebago story. Has anyone heard of this in other Siouan traditions? > Does anyone have an idea of the origin of this word in that role? I haven't seen anything like this mentioned in an Omaha or Ponca context. Dorsey's texts include various "ku" representing khu or kku referring to things like the sound of a bow, a gun, drumming, a whirr of wings, and so on. There is one gu(u) representing the sound of many feet striking the ground in a charge. Apart from this, so far as I am aware, there are just cases of demonstrative gu. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Apr 15 02:48:20 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 20:48:20 -0600 Subject: Lakota demonstratives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Wablenica wrote: > Talking about "ka-" demonstratives, they are not widely used in > Deloria's Dakota Texts either. Here are the frequencies: I wanted to see if I could say anything about demonstrative statistics in Omaha-Ponca easily. The answer is, probably not, since dhe is homophonous with 'to go' and the causative, while ga is homophonous with the male imperative and '(third person) said as follows', and all are widely used in clitic complexes of considerable length, However, I do have a list of white-space-delimited character strings form Dorsey, and perusing the lists there it looks like the ratios could be several hundred isolated dhe to several tens of isolated s^e to a handful of isolated ga in about 800 pages of text and free translation. That is with forms not in clitic complexes. There are c. 1000 accented ga, but they all seem to be from ga'=bi=ama 'he said as follows'. Actually, checking the texts, it looks like most of the isolated ga are not the demonstrative. But there are c. 20 instances of ga'=ama 'that' + 'the moving or plural', for example. As far as clitic complex forms, here are over 100 intances of s^e=thaN 'so far', though only some of them are at the end of texts. S^e'=thaN is particularly common ending texts from Francis LaFlesche and Mary LaFlesche, and occurs in some othe texts as well. S^e=na 'so many', glossed 'enough', occurs in some letters. Essentially all instances of du/s^u/gu are in clitic complexes. There are only a couple dozen du and gu cases. On the other hand, there are hundreds of cases of s^u- proclitic to motion verbs, e.g., c. 75 of s^u=bdhe 'I go to you' alone and over 230 of s^u=dhe 'he goes to you'. This is without counting the proximate form sh=adha=i of the latter. There are numerous cases of e and e= of course. I checked to see what Dorsey did with yonder, and it seems that he regularly uses this to gloss s^e=hi and s^e=dhu, to derivatives of s^e. The first uses =hi to indicate a place a bit further away than s^e. The second seems to be a locative. (I remember that dhe=(dh)u was common in the speech of CW, the man I worked with most.) Dorsey also uses yonder in glossing s^u=gi 'coming to you', as in 'yonder comes so-and-so'. Dorsey does not use yon to gloss ga. He does once gloss ga=hi= as 'that ... out of sight'. JEK From ioway at earthlink.net Sun Apr 15 03:28:07 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 21:28:07 -0600 Subject: Chiwere Popular Orthography Message-ID: I have a question for the folks working with Chiwere. I am running into real difficulty with coming up with an orthography that is acceptable to the speaking community. There is an absolute resistance to a standard orthography. I just got back from Hawaii and learned how the missionaries decided to standardize the v/w sounds as w, and the t/k sounds as k. They used to spell Hawaiian in so many different ways it was a real mess. I also learned that much was done to alter the grammar (on Niihau they still speak an old form, sounds and grammar, very different from the revitalized version of Hawaiian). Whatever you say about the accuracy of the missionaries' system, it certainly has helped in its standardization, as far as the revitalization of the past couple of decades. Now Chiwere is in such an awful state that I think we need to look at a similar standardization. Perhaps this will not work perfectly as far as the scholarly system, but it must be acceptable to the community or it will not be used. I for one feel the ideal system is one symbol for one sound, and to keep to meaningful sounds rather than alternative pronunciations. I also really don't dig the awful hyphenation that many in the community keep using (the Lewis and Clark look). The community hates the use of the x. They totally cannot abide such things as eths and thetas. So what ideas do you have? For popular use? Jimm and Lila had a nice system, but the community hated such things as using "x" for the "ach" sound. should it be the old "th" vs "dh" thing? but of course that gets back to the "one symbol for one sound" thing. I'm just flumboozled, and several of us are trying to figure this out. Bob? John? Jimm? Louanna? -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From Zylogy at aol.com Sun Apr 15 14:06:29 2001 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 10:06:29 EDT Subject: Lakota demonstratives Message-ID: It certainly would be nice if there were a compendium/database somewere on the web of various closed-class items across languages, the way there are for numeral sets. Typological databases don't usually cut it here. Its a finite set, even if large. A concerted effort, perhaps as a classroom assignment by many universities. Oh, well, one can dream. Many demonstrative sets exhibit what I believe to be secondary paradigmaticity of an iconic oppositional nature- probably why one sees the *same* sub-elements used again and again, not as a survival from some protohuman language, but as an active development in the life of a language. Some oppositions presumably simply suggest themselves given antecedent morphemes and their semantics, and given a variety of phonological paths to choose from, more often than not they will change in the direction that yields such oppositions. It would, therefore, be interesting to catalogue the particular forms of demonstratives versus their functions and see whether such relations as suggested above hold statistically, beyond what can be accounted for as historical residue. Demonstration of such secondary iconicity wouldn't very likely sit well with lumpers, especially those with a vested interest in long-range genetic issues. Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu Mon Apr 16 02:00:40 2001 From: are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu (Ardis R Eschenberg) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 22:00:40 -0400 Subject: Sacred Syllable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I remember an Omaha text where the earth says 'ku'' as it brings forth some rocks. -Ardis From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 16 14:14:17 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 08:14:17 -0600 Subject: Sacred Syllable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Apr 2001, Ardis R Eschenberg wrote: > I remember an Omaha text where the earth says 'ku'' as it brings forth > some rocks. Oops! Thanks! I saw that in the search, and then forgot it when I made the summary. Wouldn't you know I'd forget the most interesting case ... -- And, incidentally, Winnebago gu(u) could correspond historically to either Omaha-Ponca gu(u) or khu(u). Of course, other things could correspond if it wasn't a case of inheritence. There's another interesting kind of exclamation I've seen mentioned. I think it was Pond who reported a series of Dakota exclamations which he said signified the kind of game hunters had secured. I think the example he gave was a syllable signifying the killing of a bear. I don't recall the specific form, but it struck me as immitative of the bear's vocalizations, rather than, say, a word for 'bear'. From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 16 14:25:18 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:25:18 -0500 Subject: Sacred Syllable Message-ID: > ... Omaha text where the earth says 'ku'' as it brings forth > some rocks. ORdinarily this couldn't be related to Winnebago /gu/ since Omaha /u/ is invariably from /o/ (and actually pronounced [o] about half the time in my Omaha notes from ca. 1973). Nor can Winnebago /g/ be related to Omaha (/kk/), only to Omaha /g/. So the Omaha reflex for the WI sacred syllable ought to be /gi/ if no sound symbolism is involved. I haven't run across anything suggestive in my own work, sorry to say. In this particular term though, I think probably is the standard root for 'make a hollow sound' that is found in 'drum, box, cucurbit, etc. Kind of makes sense that the earth might rumble when coughing up rocks. Winnebago should have /ko-/ for that root. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 16 14:44:24 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 08:44:24 -0600 Subject: Chiwere Popular Orthography In-Reply-To: <3AD91545.F2B1015@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Apr 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > I am running into real difficulty with coming up with an orthography that is > acceptable to the speaking community. There is an absolute resistance to a > standard orthography. I may be wrong, but I think Lance means standard in the sense of using standard choices of graphs, rather than representing a language in a consistent way. The former meaning (typical choice of letters) can be a more stringent version of the latter (same choice of letter for a given sound in all writing), though the latter is usually what linguists mean by a standard orthography > ... The community hates the use of the x. They totally cannot abide > such things as eths and thetas. > > So what ideas do you have? For popular use? Jimm and Lila had a nice system, > but the community hated such things as using "x" for the "ach" sound. >>From a linguistic point of view, if the x sound were consistently written with some other letter or letter combination than x, e.g., ch, as in German, that would be OK, as long as ch wasn't also being used for the sound of - well, ch - as in the word for buffalo. Another alternative sometimes used, for example, in transcribing Russian, is kh. Russian proper, of course, uses a Cyrillic letter that is recognizably an x. There is a certain tradition in favor of x for this sound, and I suspect that most opposition to this would stem from a feeling that English use of x for "ks" is uniquely "right" and other uses of x are "wrong." > should it be the old "th" vs "dh" thing? but of course that gets back to the > "one symbol for one sound" thing. I'm just flumboozled, and several of us are > trying to figure this out. Bob? John? Jimm? Louanna? I think this refers to whether th represents the theta sound or an aspirated t. This can be a problem even in languages where there isn't any theta (or edh) sound, again because of interference from English usage. I can understand people feeling uncomfortable with what for them would be a novel orthographic tradition. They're always a bit of a wrench. However, English spelling is truely inadequate for representing a Siouan language, and some concessions have to be made. And, I've experienced this wrench so often myself that I tend to have a "get over it" attitude to it. The real issues are representing the sounds of the language with sufficient insight to permit working with it at all, and doing so in a way that isn't too impossible to write or key. When I consider writing sh for s^ (s-hacek) I do so because I suspect s^ isn't conveniently available in people's fonts, not because I think sh is better or easier to remember. In fact, there are Siouan languages where h occurs after s, so that sh for s^ simply doesn't work. I think Ioway-Otoe-Missouria is not one of these languages, anyway! John From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 16 14:57:38 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 08:57:38 -0600 Subject: Sacred Syllable In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A441487@skylark.mail.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > ORdinarily this couldn't be related to Winnebago /gu/ since Omaha /u/ is > invariably from /o/ (and actually pronounced [o] about half the time in my > Omaha notes from ca. 1973). Nor can Winnebago /g/ be related to Omaha > (/kk/), only to Omaha /g/. So the Omaha reflex for the WI sacred syllable > ought to be /gi/ if no sound symbolism is involved. I haven't run across > anything suggestive in my own work, sorry to say. I lost track of the vowel correspondence. Apologies again. It would be potentially possible for a Winnebago g to match an OP kk if the match was due to, say, borrowing. That said, I wouldn't ordinarily expect that to be the case. Speakers of Siouan languages in the old days seem to have had a fairly accurate appreciation of the regular correspondences. Very occasionally they mismatched consonants in obvious borrowings. Mismatched vowels (Wi u : OP u) are a bit more common in borrowings, I think, though, again, usually speakers got it right. > In this particular term though, I think probably is the standard root > for 'make a hollow sound' that is found in 'drum, box, cucurbit, etc. Kind > of makes sense that the earth might rumble when coughing up rocks. Winnebago > should have /ko-/ for that root. I thought about the 'hollow sound' sense and decided that for 'sound of gun', 'sound of bow', 'whirring noise', etc., it was probably something else. I remember making something very much like "ku" (or khU - voiceless - or kyU) to represent the sound of gun myself, as a child. So I omitted examples of 'hollow sound' from catalog deliberately. However, they were pretty uniformly lexicalized to the extent of having an instrumental prefix of some sort and so were fairly distinguishable from the exclamatory set. The 'manifestation of rock' examples might be 'hollow sound' or they might be 'sound of shooting or rushing or whirring'. It's hard to say with only textual evidence. I assumed the latter, but then forgot to include the 'manifestation of rock' in my catalog. JEK From ioway at earthlink.net Mon Apr 16 15:16:04 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:16:04 -0600 Subject: Sacred Syllable Message-ID: And IO k'o for "thunder (rumbling)" Lance "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: > > ... Omaha text where the earth says 'ku'' as it brings forth > > some rocks. > > ORdinarily this couldn't be related to Winnebago /gu/ since Omaha /u/ is > invariably from /o/ (and actually pronounced [o] about half the time in my > Omaha notes from ca. 1973). Nor can Winnebago /g/ be related to Omaha > (/kk/), only to Omaha /g/. So the Omaha reflex for the WI sacred syllable > ought to be /gi/ if no sound symbolism is involved. I haven't run across > anything suggestive in my own work, sorry to say. > > In this particular term though, I think probably is the standard root > for 'make a hollow sound' that is found in 'drum, box, cucurbit, etc. Kind > of makes sense that the earth might rumble when coughing up rocks. Winnebago > should have /ko-/ for that root. > > Bob -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From ioway at earthlink.net Mon Apr 16 15:18:26 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:18:26 -0600 Subject: Fonts Message-ID: This should be an easy one for you guys. Where can I download the type of fonts used in the Smithsonian Handbook for Mac? (the 'ng' symbol etc) -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From ioway at earthlink.net Mon Apr 16 15:14:33 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:14:33 -0600 Subject: Ch.Orthography/ Word for "Chief", "Family" Message-ID: Thanks John.. It bears much thought.. but if Cree and Cherokee can use a syllabary and the community get used to it, why not linguistic symbols? The problem comes in because almost all IO today learned to speak/write English before IO (or at the same time). And if you ask four IO to spell Baxoje, you will get six different answers! The reason I am asking this is that I am working on a coloring book with no English, just the Chiwere word and the line drawing for little kids in my family beginning to learn a VERY basic vocabulary of culturally important terms (nouns, adjectives, location, verbs). Just an experiment right now. This reminds me: wasn't there a list of the most common/necessary terms (100? 200?) that a linguist developed when learning any language? (like run, hot, eat, etc) A couple of other questions: There seem to be two Chiwere words/variants for "chief." 1. Kihega/Gaxige/Kahegi etc (Ioway names that translate as 'chief'; I also think it relates to some other Siouan names for 'chief' -in Osage for example?) 2. Wangegihi etc (fr. Wange 'man' + gi 'towards something' + hi 'to cause' = 'Causes a person to go [do? something]', relating to the authority of a chief Also there seem to be different words for 'family' 1. Gratogre (really 'relatives' - gra 'to be related/loved'+togre 'together') 2. Chuyu (could this be 'household'? fr. Chi 'house' + uyu 'to live in') 3. And of course wodi/wori, 'relative/relations' And finally, when we are talking about kinship, for IO we usually use 'hina' for 'mother' (the word you use to address 'mom').. but there is also 'ihun' for 'his/her mother' etc. (the word used to refer to a 'mother') And for father, 'hinka' but his/her is either anje/nanje. If I was doing an illustration of 'mother' or 'father' which should I pick? Lance Koontz John E wrote: > On Sat, 14 Apr 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > > I am running into real difficulty with coming up with an orthography that is > > acceptable to the speaking community. There is an absolute resistance to a > > standard orthography. > > I may be wrong, but I think Lance means standard in the sense of using > standard choices of graphs, rather than representing a language in a > consistent way. The former meaning (typical choice of letters) can be a > more stringent version of the latter (same choice of letter for a given > sound in all writing), though the latter is usually what linguists mean by > a standard orthography > > > ... The community hates the use of the x. They totally cannot abide > > such things as eths and thetas. > > > > So what ideas do you have? For popular use? Jimm and Lila had a nice system, > > but the community hated such things as using "x" for the "ach" sound. > > >From a linguistic point of view, if the x sound were consistently written > with some other letter or letter combination than x, e.g., ch, as in > German, that would be OK, as long as ch wasn't also being used for the > sound of - well, ch - as in the word for buffalo. Another alternative > sometimes used, for example, in transcribing Russian, is kh. Russian > proper, of course, uses a Cyrillic letter that is recognizably an x. > > There is a certain tradition in favor of x for this sound, and I suspect > that most opposition to this would stem from a feeling that English use of > x for "ks" is uniquely "right" and other uses of x are "wrong." > > > should it be the old "th" vs "dh" thing? but of course that gets back to the > > "one symbol for one sound" thing. I'm just flumboozled, and several of us are > > trying to figure this out. Bob? John? Jimm? Louanna? > > I think this refers to whether th represents the theta sound or an > aspirated t. This can be a problem even in languages where there isn't > any theta (or edh) sound, again because of interference from English > usage. > > I can understand people feeling uncomfortable with what for them would be > a novel orthographic tradition. They're always a bit of a wrench. > However, English spelling is truely inadequate for representing a Siouan > language, and some concessions have to be made. And, I've experienced > this wrench so often myself that I tend to have a "get over it" attitude > to it. The real issues are representing the sounds of the language with > sufficient insight to permit working with it at all, and doing so in a way > that isn't too impossible to write or key. When I consider writing sh for > s^ (s-hacek) I do so because I suspect s^ isn't conveniently available in > people's fonts, not because I think sh is better or easier to remember. In > fact, there are Siouan languages where h occurs after s, so that sh for s^ > simply doesn't work. I think Ioway-Otoe-Missouria is not one of these > languages, anyway! > > John -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 16 16:05:50 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:05:50 -0500 Subject: FW: Error Condition Re: RE: Chiwere Popular Orthography Message-ID: If you go down far enough, you'll find my message. Bob -----Original Message----- From: listproc at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:listproc at lists.colorado.edu] Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 11:02 AM To: rankin at KU.EDU Subject: Error Condition Re: RE: Chiwere Popular Orthography Dear user, every time you send email to list SIOUAN the system analyzes the first line of your message in order to catch misdirected requests. It appears that the first line in your message may have been such a request: JOIN THE (ALREADY VERY LARGE) CLUB! I SYMPATHIZE AND HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM The first word, "JOIN", matches one of ListProc's command words, and as a result your mail was not distributed to the list. If your intent was to send a request please resend it to the command processor listproc at lists.Colorado.EDU (not siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU). If your intent was to post a message to this list please rephrase the first line of your message so that it does not look like a request and resubmit it to siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU, and please accept our apologies for the inconvenience. If you need further assistance please contact the owner(s) john.koontz at colorado.edu . Your entire message is copied below. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >>From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 16 10:01:59 2001 Received: from duck.mail.ukans.edu (duck.mail.ukans.edu [129.237.35.84]) by hooch.colorado.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/ITS-5.0/standard) with ESMTP id KAA14292 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:01:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: by duck.mail.ukans.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <2Y429B1C>; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:01:58 -0500 Message-ID: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A44148C at skylark.mail.ukans.edu> From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Chiwere Popular Orthography Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:01:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > I am running into real difficulty with coming up with an > orthography that is > acceptable to the speaking community. There is an absolute > resistance to a > standard orthography. Join the (already very large) club! I sympathize and have the same problem with Kaws who desperately want to stick with English spelling conventions. It is a universal problem and one to which I have no solution. If there are essentially no native speakers, it probably won't be possible to get people to agree. Period. No matter what you do, folks will revert to their own private spellings to "clarify" what you give them. I happen to be one of those curmudgeonly guys who thinks that "teacher knows best." And as the author of your materials, you are in a strong position to be a little insistent. It's obvious that people are going to want to be able to use Jimm's dictionary, so I think that is the system I'd use myself. Linguists use X for the velar fricative because the Greeks use it that way, and when linguists ran out of Roman letters, they went to the Greek alphabet for more symbols. You can try to get agreement from your users, but I have to be pessimistic about your chances. When we are taught Spanish in high school, we don't get a choice about how to spell [x]. They just tell us we're gonna have to learn that it's spelled with most of the time and in front of i or e. Sometimes you just have to try to use your influence to impose a solution. Good luck! Bob From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 16 15:36:18 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:36:18 -0500 Subject: Sacred Syllable Message-ID: > In this particular term though, I think probably is > the standard root > for 'make a hollow sound' that is found in 'drum, box, > cucurbit, etc. Kind > of makes sense that the earth might rumble when coughing up > rocks. Winnebago > should have /ko-/ for that root. ...as indeed it does. Miner (1984) has kook 'box, barrel', kookox 'be noisy', koox 'make noise' and various derivatives. And there is k?oo 'thunder' with glottalization. I think if Ardis is right about equating those Omaha/Winnebago forms, that sound symbolism would be the thing to appeal to here. bob From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Apr 16 17:56:43 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 12:56:43 -0500 Subject: Fonts Message-ID: > Where can I download the type of fonts > used in the Smithsonian Handbook for Mac? (the 'ng' symbol etc) Lance, Sounds like you essentially want an IPA font. (The true Unicode fonts are huge, over 20MB.) Check out: http://www2.arts.gla.ac.uk/IPA/ipafonts.html http://www.sil.org/computing/fonts/encore.html http://www.hclrss.demon.co.uk/unicode/fonts_mac.html Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 16 17:53:35 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:53:35 -0600 Subject: Ch.Orthography/ Word for "Chief", "Family" In-Reply-To: <3ADB0C55.B7288FB@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > Thanks John.. It bears much thought.. but if Cree and Cherokee can use > a syllabary and the community get used to it, why not linguistic > symbols? The two syllabaries have had the sociological advantage of being propagated among native speakers by native speakers as native systems. Of course, (a) the Cree syllabary isn't really of native origin, though exclusively used in such contexts, and (b) syllaries are much more inconvenient than any alphabetic system. > The problem comes in because almost all IO today learned to > speak/write English before IO (or at the same time). And if you ask > four IO to spell Baxoje, you will get six different answers! Very true, though learning English orthography is not equivalent to learning other orthographies and it also teaches some bad practices due to the peculiar inadequacies of English orthography. If an English speaker sets out to learn Spanish they have to learn the Spanish orthgraphy, like it or not. If they tackle Dakotan they have to learn at least one, probably several, systems for the Dakotan dialect they decide on. They may even have to learn a bit about several dialects, since the important references have in several different dialects. > The reason I am asking this is that I am working on a coloring book > with no English, just the Chiwere word and the line drawing for little > kids in my family beginning to learn a VERY basic vocabulary of > culturally important terms (nouns, adjectives, location, verbs). Just > an experiment right now. I tend to agree with Bob. You'll have to pronounce the words for the kids anyway. If anyone complains about the x's and what not, you should just tell them it's not English and some broadening of the mind may be required. A colleague used to tell users "getting the answer to that requires an out-of-net experience." This requires an out-of-English experience. > This reminds me: wasn't there a list of the most common/necessary > terms (100? 200?) that a linguist developed when learning any > language? (like run, hot, eat, etc) Not really. There's a supposedly 'Basic" vocabulary list for English, but it's very peculiar to English. There are Swadesh's 100 word and 200 word lists, but these are intended to be stable or basic vocabulary for historical comparisons, not a bare minimum for conversation. In these lists there are a fair number of egregious Indo-European or European dependencies in the vocabulary as well as Western European dependencies in the implicit assumptions about the grammar. I have also seen a specialized South East Asian version of this list (CALMSEA), but it has its own dependencies and is again intended to support comparisons, not conversation. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 16 18:01:15 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 12:01:15 -0600 Subject: ... Word for "Chief" ... In-Reply-To: <3ADB0C55.B7288FB@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > There seem to be two Chiwere words/variants for "chief." > 1. Kihega/Gaxige/Kahegi etc (Ioway names that translate as 'chief'; I > also think it relates to some other Siouan names for 'chief' -in Osage > for example?) The sets for 'chief' are pretty irregular and are probably loans from somewhere. At one point Allan Taylor suggested Spanish Cacique (from a South American source, I think). The OP root is gahige (~ hagi) if I recall. > 2. Wangegihi etc (fr. Wange 'man' + gi 'towards something' + hi 'to > cause' = 'Causes a person to go [do? something]', relating to the > authority of a chief You could render gihi as 'send(er)'. The concept of 'chief' is fairly complex in Omaha culture, with different levels and kinds of rights and responsibilities. There are different terms for the various kinds, as I recall. And, there's also a current, constitutional system, too, that's probably more useful for most purposes. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 16 18:09:15 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 12:09:15 -0600 Subject: ... Word for "Family" ... In-Reply-To: <3ADB0C55.B7288FB@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > Also there seem to be different words for 'family' > 1. Gratogre (really 'relatives' - gra 'to be related/loved'+togre 'together') > 2. Chuyu (could this be 'household'? fr. Chi 'house' + uyu 'to live in') Cf. Omaha-Ponca ttiz^u 'household', I think. > 3. And of course wodi/wori, 'relative/relations' Cf. OP e=...dhe 'relative' (a causative of e 'the aforesaid'). Unfortunately (?) you can't talk about kinship in Omaha-Ponca without being able to inflect casuative verbs. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 16 18:26:10 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 12:26:10 -0600 Subject: Ch.Orthography/ Word for "Chief", "Family" In-Reply-To: <3ADB0C55.B7288FB@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > And finally, when we are talking about kinship, for IO we usually use > 'hina' for 'mother' (the word you use to address 'mom').. but there is > also 'ihun' for 'his/her mother' etc. (the word used to refer to a > 'mother') And for father, 'hinka' but his/her is either anje/nanje. > > If I was doing an illustration of 'mother' or 'father' which should I pick? Most of the Siouan languages have two terms for 'mother' and two terms for 'father'. The members of the pairs are in a suppletive relationship, meaning basically that one stem in the pair is used in some parts of the possessive paradigm and one stem is used in the other parts. The details vary from language to language, but in Omaha-Ponca, for example: 'father' vocative dadi' hau (male speaker) (old usage dadi' ha) dadi' ha (female speaker) my ... iNda'di your ... dhia'di his/her/their ... idha'di There isn't a term for 'our father'. (That must bother missionaries! No, I guess you want the vocative there.) Usually 'your father' is substituted. Here the two stems are -dadi and -(dh)adi, the latter comparable to aNje. The first person possessive is irregularly formed with this stem. The normal breakdown in suppletive kinship paradigms in Omaha-Ponca is vocative and first person vs. second and third person. A number of terms have innovated new suppletions, e.g., for 'his younger brother' isaN'ga, the vocative/first person is now khage'saNga. My linguistic intuition is that the "citation form" is the third person, but for teaching purposes you have to learn all four or five. A dictionary has got to list all forms or, at a minimum, both stems with a comment in the introduction about how to apply them to produce the four (five) derivative forms, and, for this set, something about the irregular inflection in the first person. A child will probably assume their own father, so the first person or vocative are perhaps the most natural caption to a picture. I've noticed that native Omaha-produced lists tend to ignore the second person entirely and concentrate on the vocative/first person and third person. How's that for a comprehensive non-answer! JEK From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 16 19:39:29 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 14:39:29 -0500 Subject: ... Word for "Family" ... Message-ID: > > 2. Chuyu (could this be 'household'? fr. Chi 'house' + uyu > 'to live in') > Cf. Omaha-Ponca ttiz^u 'household', I think. Hmm, that certainly seems to be related to Kansa chiz^o, which is a moiety name according to Dorsey. I once recorded this, but with an aspirated ch. But it may be derived from 'house', in which case it shouldn't have the aspiration. I wonder if one or the other involves folk etymology or if my ears just failed me? Bob From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 16 20:13:38 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 15:13:38 -0500 Subject: ... Word for "Chief" ... Message-ID: > The sets for 'chief' are pretty irregular and are probably loans > from somewhere. At one point Allan Taylor suggested Spanish > Cacique (from a South American source, I think). The OP root is > gahige (~ hagi) if I recall. > > 2. Wangegihi etc (fr. Wange 'man' + gi 'towards something' + > hi 'to cause' = 'Causes a person to go [do? something]', > relating to the authority of a chief. You could render gihi as > 'send(er)'. Nikka-gahi is another variant in Dhegiha dialects. Nikka 'man' with gahi as the root for 'chief'. Hi does not function as a causative in Dhegiha languages, and they routinely have ga- (Dakotan ka-) where Chiwere and Winnebago have gi-. So it certainly looks as though Dhegiha speakers analyze the root as gahi- (with ga- > gi- in CH/WI). I can't say anything about trying to derive it from Spanish Cacique, but i tend to doubt it. bob From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Apr 16 21:25:00 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 16:25:00 -0500 Subject: ... Word for "Chief" ... Message-ID: > At one point Allan Taylor suggested Spanish > Cacique (from a South American source, I think). >>From Taino (Hispaniola dialect), according to dictionaries. From ioway at earthlink.net Tue Apr 17 01:24:12 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:24:12 -0600 Subject: Chiwere Popular Orthography Message-ID: You have a point, but for some letters that could be written as a single sound (say c for ch, or ? for ny) are written two lettered, while the x could be kh and probably be more acceptable to the community (for some reason the x really sticks in their craw). If it was going to be consistent I would say "ce" for "che", and "ma?i" for "manyi", if I decided to stick with "x", to be consistent with the one sound=one letter. I think for a beginner-level the "kh" may be easier to deal with (I know some really want the hyphens but I put my foot down on that one). One thing to support the "just make'em learn linguistic notation" is what do you do with the eng sound? "ng" is insufficient, as how does one differentiate shunge (SHOONG-ay) from shunge (SHOONG-gay)? And then there is the nasal thing, with hi vs hin. In that case do I go with a superscript "n" which may be more understandable (if a bit sloppy) than the subscript hook (which I always dug) or the tilde over the "i" which looks really sloppy in the IPA font I just downloaded. One more thing I gotta ask. It's been many years (about 1981) since I took linguistics, so what symbol is used to designate the "hm" sound (the one where you say "m" while breathing out through your nose?) Or the "hn" sound? And for IO, what is the best choice in the IPA fonts for the flapped r/l? For "pipe" I have seen rahnuwe, lahnuwe, and even danuwe! And for wori "relative", it is usually said/heard/spelled wodi! Lance So: baxoje, ci, che, ma?i, "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: > If you go down far enough, you'll find my message. Bob > > > I am running into real difficulty with coming up with an > > orthography that is > > acceptable to the speaking community. There is an absolute > > resistance to a > > standard orthography. > > Join the (already very large) club! I sympathize and have the same problem > with Kaws who desperately want to stick with English spelling conventions. > It is a universal problem and one to which I have no solution. If there are > essentially no native speakers, it probably won't be possible to get people > to agree. Period. No matter what you do, folks will revert to their own > private spellings to "clarify" what you give them. > > I happen to be one of those curmudgeonly guys who thinks that "teacher knows > best." And as the author of your materials, you are in a strong position to > be a little insistent. It's obvious that people are going to want to be able > to use Jimm's dictionary, so I think that is the system I'd use myself. > Linguists use X for the velar fricative because the Greeks use it that way, > and when linguists ran out of Roman letters, they went to the Greek alphabet > for more symbols. You can try to get agreement from your users, but I have > to be pessimistic about your chances. > > When we are taught Spanish in high school, we don't get a choice about how > to spell [x]. They just tell us we're gonna have to learn that it's spelled > with most of the time and in front of i or e. Sometimes you just > have to try to use your influence to impose a solution. Good luck! > > Bob -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From ioway at earthlink.net Tue Apr 17 01:43:44 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:43:44 -0600 Subject: Ch.Orthography/ Word for "Chief", "Family" Message-ID: If they tackle Dakotan they have to learn at least one, probably several, systems for the Dakotan dialect they decide on. They > may even have to learn a bit about several dialects, since the important > references have in several different dialects. What has been the most successful systems, in terms of community acceptance, for ANY Siouan language? Anyone want to nominatre the one with the most community acceptance? > > > I tend to agree with Bob. You'll have to pronounce the words for the kids > anyway. If anyone complains about the x's and what not, you should just > tell them it's not English and some broadening of the mind may be > required. A colleague used to tell users "getting the answer to that > requires an out-of-net experience." This requires an out-of-English > experience. Again, use fo the x as in Jimm's system is simply not consistent with the rest of the system. For example, ch, ny, ng, etc are all written with two consonants. They could each be written with one (c, ?, the "eng") if we want to be consistent with the use of x. If we wish to use ch, ny, ng, why not use kh? Not to pick on Jimm, but his and Lila's system uses "sh" not the "esh". I am simply arguing for consistency either way we go. And we are also talking about nonnative speakers and getting them interested rather than scared off. > > > > This reminds me: wasn't there a list of the most common/necessary > > terms (100? 200?) that a linguist developed when learning any > > language? (like run, hot, eat, etc) > > Not really. There's a supposedly 'Basic" vocabulary list for English, but > it's very peculiar to English. ...In these > lists there are a fair number of egregious Indo-European or European > dependencies in the vocabulary as well as Western European dependencies in > the implicit assumptions about the grammar. A point I hadn't thought of. I was remembering a film I saw as an undergrad where a linguist, using NO english was able to elicit a basic vocabulary and basic grammar using nothing but gestures and repetition. Does this sound familiar? -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 17 02:59:03 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:59:03 -0600 Subject: ... Word for "Chief" ... In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A441496@skylark.mail.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > The OP root is > gahige (~ hagi) if I recall. Oops, I transposed gahi. > > > 2. Wangegihi etc (fr. Wange 'man' + gi 'towards something' + > > hi 'to cause' = 'Causes a person to go [do? something]', > > relating to the authority of a chief. You could render gihi as > > 'send(er)'. > > Nikka-gahi is another variant in Dhegiha dialects. Nikka 'man' with gahi as > the root for 'chief'. Hi does not function as a causative in Dhegiha > languages, and they routinely have ga- (Dakotan ka-) where Chiwere and > Winnebago have gi-. So it certainly looks as though Dhegiha speakers analyze > the root as gahi- (with ga- > gi- in CH/WI). I can't say anything about > trying to derive it from Spanish Cacique, but i tend to doubt it. I hadn't thought of that. It makes sense to see gihi as a development of gahi. And then Nikka-gahi does parallel waNge-gihi exactly. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 17 03:17:40 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:17:40 -0600 Subject: Chiwere Popular Orthography In-Reply-To: <3ADB9B3B.DD8263A0@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > You have a point, but for some letters that could be written as a > single sound (say c for ch, or ? for ny) are written two lettered, > while the x could be kh and probably be more acceptable to the > community (for some reason the x really sticks in their craw). Well, Dakotanists used to use h plus some diacritic, e.g., h-overdot. I'm trying to remember if the Colorado System uses h-hacek. > If it was going to be consistent I would say "ce" for "che", and "ma?i" for > "manyi", if I decided to stick with "x", to be consistent with the one > sound=one letter. > I think for a beginner-level the "kh" may be easier to deal with (I > know some really want the hyphens but I put my foot down on that one). The problem with stop + h combinations (ph, th, ch, kh) is that they are the most natural way to write aspiration, which is essentially always a factor in Mississippi Valley languages. > One thing to support the "just make'em learn linguistic notation" is > what do you do with the eng sound? "ng" is insufficient, as how does > one differentiate shunge (SHOONG-ay) from shunge (SHOONG-gay)? In cases like that you are pretty much driven to using the eng-character - n with a j-tail. > And then there is the nasal thing, with hi vs hin. In that case do I > go with a superscript "n" which may be more understandable (if a bit > sloppy) than the subscript hook (which I always dug) or the tilde over > the "i" which looks really sloppy in the IPA font I just downloaded. Either superscript n or the hook work for me. > One more thing I gotta ask. It's been many years (about 1981) since I > took linguistics, so what symbol is used to designate the "hm" sound > (the one where you say "m" while breathing out through your nose?) Or > the "hn" sound? Siouanists mostly use hm and hn. > And for IO, what is the best choice in the IPA fonts for the flapped > r/l? For "pipe" I have seen rahnuwe, lahnuwe, and even danuwe! And for > wori "relative", it is usually said/heard/spelled wodi! It doesn't really matter, but I'd tend to pick r somewhat arbitarily. There is a special charactger for it, but I don't think anyone but a fanatic would use it in writing a phonemic system where it wasn't opposed to some other r character. Which brings up an interesting question. Except in a very few words that have y for *y (sometimes written z^) IO merges *r and *y and *R as r. I've sometimes wondered if *R might still really contrast with *r in IO, leading to two contrasting r's that were everywhere being transcribed as r. In fact, the thing that made me wonder was the occasional d for *r. JEK From munro at ucla.edu Tue Apr 17 03:28:08 2001 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:28:08 -0700 Subject: Chiwere Popular Orthography Message-ID: One way to differentiate plain intervocalic eng from eng before g (I'm not sure what Lance means by this symbol) is to write ng for the first and ngg for the second. Of course the second looks a bit odd, but in fact (most) English speakers are generally quite happy to acknowledge the difference between ng (eng) in singer and ngg (eng+g) in finger. It is not true that orthographies have to use nonstandard symbols and consequently not be emailable etc. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 17 03:38:44 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:38:44 -0600 Subject: Ch.Orthography/ Word for "Chief", "Family" In-Reply-To: <3ADB9FCE.5B01CD@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > What has been the most successful systems, in terms of community acceptance, > for ANY Siouan language? Anyone want to nominate the one with the most > community acceptance? I have the impression that the popular orthography for Crow is well accepted. Before that there were at least the Lowie and the Kaschube systems. > Again, use of the x as in Jimm's system is simply not consistent with > the rest of the system. For example, ch, ny, ng, etc are all written > with two consonants. They could each be written with one (c, ?, the > "eng") if we want to be consistent with the use of x. If we wish to > use ch, ny, ng, why not use kh? Not to pick on Jimm, but his and > Lila's system uses "sh" not the "esh". I am simply arguing for > consistency either way we go. And we are also talking about nonnative > speakers and getting them interested rather than scared off. I'm not sure Jimm's system was aimed at using one-letter ot two-letter combinations. It looks to me like he set out to use English patterns but fell back on common expedients like x for the velar fricative where English didn't go. I don't think linguists attach much significance to using one letter ot two to represent a sound in practical systems, only to not using more than one expedient (of however many letters) to represent the same sound. So you wouldn't want to write IO "r" sometimes with r, sometimes with l. The one exception would be cases where there is some well-conditioned allophony you want to appeal to. For example, Carolyn Quintero uses r in br, and edh otherwise for th Osage edh (or r). And I use ptc^k in sp, etc., but bdj^g not in clusters, though there is no contrast between p and b, etc. I've tried writing sp and p, e.g., pute for bu(u)de 'acorn', but it involved more explaining than seemed necessary. I've noticed that folks working with Winnebago write sg and g, for example, though, and that seems to work for them. > A point I hadn't thought of. I was remembering a film I saw as an > undergrad where a linguist, using NO english was able to elicit a > basic vocabulary and basic grammar using nothing but gestures and > repetition. Does this sound familiar? My wife says she can teach English this way, but that it's a slow process. It's better to have a translator. We softies working with Native American languages in the US tend to rely on the speaker to be the translator, too. I've heard of cases where the linguist spoke a sort of X to a translator who spoke X and Y and translated X into Y to deal with a speaker who spoke Y and Z, Z being the language of interest. Dorsey seems to have done something like this with a lot of his Omaha-Ponca work. The speakers in many cases knew very little English. He wrote as fast as he could, got them to repeat when he could, and then worked through the results with the aid of one of the tribe's translators or with various consultants like Frank (Francis) LaFlesche or some others who were hired to come to Washington or were visiting on other business. He also elicited texts from English-Omaha-Ponca bilinguals like Frank LaFlesche. Your best bet in developing a vocabulary list is to look at existing texts. JEK From pathfind at country.net.au Tue Apr 17 05:23:36 2001 From: pathfind at country.net.au (Pathfinders) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 15:23:36 +1000 Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: Moving campus... please unsubscribe 'til new ISP. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ioway at earthlink.net Tue Apr 17 13:57:45 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 07:57:45 -0600 Subject: Chiwere Popular Orthography Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > > > I think for a beginner-level the "kh" may be easier to deal with (I > > know some really want the hyphens but I put my foot down on that one). > > The problem with stop + h combinations (ph, th, ch, kh) is that they are > the most natural way to write aspiration, which is essentially always a > factor in Mississippi Valley languages. ok..if th and ch should be avoided as they are "the most natural way to write aspiration", then what do you say about their use in Jimm's system then as far as che and thi? Most in the community seem to be okay with th as theta for example. Although aspiration may be a linguistic characteristic, I don't think it seems to have much importance in the way of distinguishing a meaningful sound anymore (though if you have an example of such a distinction I would be interested!).. aspiration seems just to be a matter of having a more authentic "native accent". I still have a problem with whether the b/p in b/paxoje was originally supposed to be "snow" (ba) or "head" (pa) Lance From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 17 15:00:38 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:00:38 -0500 Subject: Ch.Orthography/ Word for "Chief", "Family" Message-ID: > What has been the most successful systems, in terms of > community acceptance, For Dakotan, the one the Bible was translated into. But not for linguistic reasons, obviously. The Riggs system has probably been around the longest too. I still see no point in changing Jimm's system; it will just make the dictionary inaccessible. I suppose "kh" would work for /x/ in parallel with "gh" for gamma. Aspiration isn't being written as such, so kh is available. As for "ng", Pam's suggestion is good. I discovered it's used a lot in Australia and the SW Pacific (ng/ngg). But since all "ng" sounds in Chiwere actually originate in /ng/ sequences, maybe leaving it alone would work well enough. Or you could spell it "nh" to parallel the other diacritic uses of "h", but, again, I'd stick with the dict. for practical reasons. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 17 16:01:56 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:01:56 -0500 Subject: Chiwere Popular Orthography Message-ID: > ... aspiration, ... is essentially always a factor in > Mississippi Valley languages. True, but since Chiwere/Winnebago specialists have opted to use plain p,t,c,k for the aspirates, that leaves "h" open to be used in digraphs. > ...aspiration seems just to be a matter of having a more > authentic "native accent". The recordings I have of Truman Dailey, Franklin Murray and Lizzie Harper make the aspiration distinction 100% of the time. The consonants written are aspirated [ph,th,ch,kh] in all contexts. But then the consonants that are typically being written with b,d,j,g are sometimes voiced but sometimes voiceless-UNaspirated, creating the problem you describe below: > I still have a problem with whether the b/p in b/paxoje was > originally supposed to be "snow" (ba) or "head" (pa) 'Head' is /pha/, of course. And the b/p of Baxoje are both UNaspirated, i.e., written with "b". This is a problem that Chiwere specialists have always faced. If they fool themselves into thinking that the distinction is one of voicing, they simply transcribe many of the words wrong. The distinction is always aspirated/unaspirated, and the UNaspirated stops can be *either* voiced or voiceless. Bob From FurbeeL at missouri.edu Tue Apr 17 19:33:36 2001 From: FurbeeL at missouri.edu (Louanna Furbee) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 14:33:36 -0500 Subject: Orthography Message-ID: Lance, I'm completely overwhelmed and can't respond to all of your orthography queries (plus other comments on them from other people) at this minute, but here is a quick, unresearched set of opinions. I would suggest that if you can do a superscript n for nazalization, you probably can do a superscript h for either pre or post aspiration. So, you could do hm (with the h superscipt) for preaspirated m, for example, and ph, th, kh, even chh if you want to do that (again with the last h superscript). I'm not sure I'd chose that for my purposes, but it would leave th (no superscript) available for theta and ch for the ch/j (with hachek) of Chiwere (the one that is unaspirated, lenis, and sometimes is heard as a voiced affricate by English speakers). To that end, with respect to your query I still have a problem with whether the b/p in b/paxoje was originally supposed to be "snow" (ba) or "head" (pa) I'd think if the if it is the unaspirated b/p, then it's going to derive from the "snow" example, if the p "head" is ordinarily aspirated, but I'd have to look up these forms to be sure. If you're going to used b, d, g, j for the lenis, sometimes voiced, sometimes voiceless consonant series, then you can reserve ph, th, k, ch, etc. (superscript h in each) for the aspirated, tense, voiceless consonants. The other big set is the glottalized one: just use an apostrophe after the letter for that: p', t', k', ch', etc. If you're writing long vowels, just double the vowel or use a colon after it: aa or a: Like you, I don't find any easy solution to the ng problem. If it is always clear where there is a word boundary, then it is ok with ng. In that case, you can write ngk, when a syllable ends with an agma and begins with a k/g. It might work, but it looks clugy. More and better later. Louanna -- Prof. N. Louanna Furbee Department of Anthropology 107 Swallow Hall University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65211 USA Telephones: 573/882-9408 (office) 573/882-4731 (department) 573/446-0932 (home) 573/884-5450 (fax) E-mail: FurbeeL at missouri.edu From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu Tue Apr 17 20:00:20 2001 From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 15:00:20 -0500 Subject: Sacred Syllable Message-ID: With respect to Omaha ku, in Wi Marino-Radin has ko, meaning, "to look out for, make a place for," and kox, "to help, assist." We also have kog / kok, meaning "box, etc." Besides k'o, "thunder," there is kox, "screetching (of birds)," and the Bird Clan name, KoxmaniNga, "Walking while Making Kox." I now find in Miner the word goo, meaning, "to give a religious feast; (with object) to invite to a religious feast." It may well be that gu is not Siouan at all, but Algonquin. It would seem to be an internationally understood expression, which makes it less likely that it is just Wi. Apart from the three stories that mention it, I had never heard of any such practice anywhere. Responding to the message of <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A441487 at skylark.mail.ukans.edu> from siouan at lists.colorado.edu: > > > > ... Omaha text where the earth says 'ku'' as it brings forth > > some rocks. > > ORdinarily this couldn't be related to Winnebago /gu/ since Omaha /u/ is > invariably from /o/ (and actually pronounced [o] about half the time in my > Omaha notes from ca. 1973). Nor can Winnebago /g/ be related to Omaha > (/kk/), only to Omaha /g/. So the Omaha reflex for the WI sacred syllable > ought to be /gi/ if no sound symbolism is involved. I haven't run across > anything suggestive in my own work, sorry to say. > > In this particular term though, I think probably is the standard root > for 'make a hollow sound' that is found in 'drum, box, cucurbit, etc. Kind > of makes sense that the earth might rumble when coughing up rocks. Winnebago > should have /ko-/ for that root. > > Bob > > . From jggoodtracks at juno.com Tue Apr 17 22:16:39 2001 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 17:16:39 -0500 Subject: Orthography Message-ID: Approximately two (2) years ago (1999), I contemplated how to make a more precise Baxoje-Jiwere Orthography, and composed the following set to eliminate some of the confusion with nasal verbs marked by "n", as well as the confussion between the "ny" & "ng". In as much as this represented a change from the orthography of IOM Bks I & II, and the IOM Dictionary (1992), I thought it well to review the change with community members before, formalizing the new set of characters [fonts] (enclosed here via attachment formated via MSWord 95). The review was carried out with an explaination of how the new characters would facilitate an accurate rendering of the language. A number of community members active in their present contemporary culture and tribal events in Perkins, Red Rock, & White Cloud were consulted. All individuals have partial knowledge of the IOM language from their respective families, and/or have studied the language with others in the respective communities. Upon their acceptance of the proposed set, I composed the enclosed Orthography Update (5/99). The only character rejected was a single "c" or "c^ (hachek) for the sound of "ch". I suggested that it could be written as "c^h", as we think ahead and move towards the tentative time of new learners/ speakers to become familiar and accepting the "c^" (hachek) for the sound in the future, in as much as all fluent speakers are deceased. There was no consideration of the Greek letters theta for "th" nor delta for "dh" were not considered. Of late, There has been discussion of vowel length, and possible marking of it. This needs to be under further review. Also, the discussions have been on-going in regard to marking aspiration distintions. However, as BobR. has pointed out that recordings of Truman Dailey, Franklin Murray, Lizzie Harper, as well as, Joe Young, Betsy Dupee Young, Mary Dupee Irving, Grace Kihega, Ella Brown, Alice Sines, Robert Moore, Fannie Grant (just to name a few more on record) make the aspiration distinction 100% of the time. So for the non-speaker of IOM, it is a matter of learning to hear the distinctions, and accurately reiterate/ render the spoken word. Both Bob and John have commented on the fact that Siouan Languages are not English. If the student of the particular language is committed, they will learn the orthography that has been adapted and standardized by individuals who have been working with it over several decades, as opposed to the recently introduced student. For that student, if it helps them learn it, by writing a sounding out in English glosses, then permit them to do so. Jimm P.S. In the last two years, other individuals have consulted me to assist in rendering an accurate written form (words) and pronunciation of their family Native names from the dot-dash English phonics of past records. In each case, I've written them in the updated orthography to their satisfaction. Others across the country, have asked for stories and narratives, which have been sent in the updated orthography. To date, I have heard no negative responces, either directly nor indirectly. Indeed, I receive "Thank You's" of appreciation, and maybe an occassional remark of "I can make it out (IOM)" or "I need to learn how to read it". -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Orthographic Updates.doc Type: application/octet-stream Size: 14336 bytes Desc: not available URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 18 00:11:06 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 18:11:06 -0600 Subject: Chiwere Popular Orthography In-Reply-To: <3ADC4BD8.D56CC7C2@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Apr 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > Koontz John E wrote: > > The problem with stop + h combinations (ph, th, ch, kh) is that they are > > the most natural way to write aspiration, which is essentially always a > > factor in Mississippi Valley languages. > > ok..if th and ch should be avoided as they are "the most natural way to write > aspiration", then what do you say about their use in Jimm's system then as far > as che and thi? I guess the answer is that while I consider using and , reserving h for aspiration, to be perfectly natural and reasonable, others don't. > I still have a problem with whether the b/p in b/paxoje was originally > supposed to be "snow" (ba) or "head" (pa) I believe it is unaspirated (because people write baxoje as well as early "pahoute"), so ba (or pa), not pha, hence ba 'snow'. And I'd write 'snow' ba (or pa - one or the other, not both) and 'head' pha. For what it's worth, Omaha-Ponca has maxude, which is basically consistent with baxoje, since ma is 'snow'. If it were 'head' it would be ppaxude. Of course, you can't rely on what happens in a loan (which I assume this is), because the loan might involve a reinterpretation (changing to 'head' if the speaker believed this to be the meaning) or go by phonetics, in which case perhaps ba (heard as [pa]) might be mapped to ppa, and so on. I assume this is a loan because it's unlikely a contemporary ethnonym, even a fairly venerable one (attested by at least 1700?) would be unlikely to be inherited from, say, Proto-Mississippi Valley. Almost by definition, the current ethnic groups would not have existed at that point. I might add as a final note that though Baxoje seems to be fairly clearly interpretable as 'gray snow' there's a possibility that something else is involved. The name might have been modified to support a folk etymology, or might simply have some other meaning currently obscure. Ethnonyms are often subjected to folk etymologically-founded modifications. On the other hand, the name may simply encode an emphemerally based description of a place, converted successively into a village name and then an ethnonym, just as it seems it might. It's always difficult to determine what names that are analyzable but something of a non sequitur might refer to. It's even harder if the name is ambiguous with some more lasting verity. For example, are the Omahas UmaNhaN 'upstream' because at some point an ancestral group lived in a place upstream of something since forgotten (some other village? a prominent landmark?) or because they were upstream of all other Dhegiha groups (except the Ponca!)? The latter is the usual assumption, especially given that Ugaxpa (Quapaw in OP form) means 'downstream', but it gives one pause to learn that the Quapaw (in the larger sense) included a village called ImaNhaN 'downstream'. It's not even clear to me that the present name Ugaxpa (etc) originally applied outside of the one of five contact period villages called Ugaxpa, though I've debated this back and forth with Bob Rankin, who thinks it might have applied more widely even at contact. But in any case it's clear that names like "upstream" can be of a more or less local origin, and I would assume that 'gray snow' must have some similar local explanation if Baxoje is to be analyzed as such. From ioway at earthlink.net Wed Apr 18 01:02:11 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 19:02:11 -0600 Subject: Orthography Message-ID: I looked at your new orthography and found it right on, Jimm! I see it has addressed my own frustrations quite well, and with your permission, I will adapt my own work to correspond to your new orthography..it is indeed a giant step in the right direction, and can only help us nonspeakers. Plainly, it kicks butt, hintaro! I am very impressed that you were able to get the many voices together in agreement. Not an easy task, and I am plumb amazed! I hope my efforts are somehow able to complement yours, as well as Dr. Furbee's. Warigroxi, Lance Jimm G GoodTracks wrote: > Approximately two (2) years ago (1999), I contemplated how to make a more > precise Baxoje-Jiwere Orthography, and composed the following set to > eliminate some of the confusion with nasal verbs marked by "n", as well > as the confussion between the "ny" & "ng". > > In as much as this represented a change from the orthography of IOM Bks I > & II, and the IOM Dictionary (1992), I thought it well to review the > change with community members before, formalizing the new set of > characters [fonts] (enclosed here via attachment formated via MSWord 95). > > The review was carried out with an explaination of how the new characters > would facilitate an accurate rendering of the language. A number of > community members active in their present contemporary culture and tribal > events in Perkins, Red Rock, & White Cloud were consulted. All > individuals have partial knowledge of the IOM language from their > respective families, and/or have studied the language with others in the > respective communities. Upon their acceptance of the proposed set, I > composed the enclosed Orthography Update (5/99). > > The only character rejected was a single "c" or "c^ (hachek) for the > sound of "ch". I suggested that it could be written as "c^h", as we > think ahead and move towards the tentative time of new learners/ speakers > to become familiar and accepting the "c^" (hachek) for the sound in the > future, in as much as all fluent speakers are deceased. There was no > consideration of the Greek letters theta for "th" nor delta for "dh" were > not considered. > > Of late, > There has been discussion of vowel length, and possible marking of it. > This needs to be under further review. > Also, the discussions have been on-going in regard to marking aspiration > distintions. However, as BobR. has pointed out that recordings of Truman > Dailey, Franklin Murray, Lizzie Harper, as well as, Joe Young, Betsy > Dupee Young, Mary Dupee Irving, Grace Kihega, Ella Brown, Alice Sines, > Robert Moore, Fannie Grant (just to name a few more on record) make the > aspiration distinction 100% of the time. So for the non-speaker of IOM, > it is a matter of learning to hear the distinctions, and accurately > reiterate/ render the spoken word. > > Both Bob and John have commented on the fact that Siouan Languages are > not English. If the student of the particular language is committed, > they will learn the orthography that has been adapted and standardized by > individuals who have been working with it over several decades, as > opposed to the recently introduced student. For that student, if it > helps them learn it, by writing a sounding out in English glosses, then > permit them to do so. > Jimm > > P.S. In the last two years, other individuals have consulted me to > assist in rendering an accurate written form (words) and pronunciation of > their family Native names from the dot-dash English phonics of past > records. In each case, I've written them in the updated orthography to > their satisfaction. Others across the country, have asked for stories > and narratives, which have been sent in the updated orthography. To > date, I have heard no negative responces, either directly nor indirectly. > Indeed, I receive "Thank You's" of appreciation, and maybe an > occassional remark of "I can make it out (IOM)" or "I need to learn how > to read it". > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Name: Orthographic Updates.doc > Orthographic Updates.doc Type: Microsoft Word Document (application/msword) > Encoding: base64 -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From rankin at ku.edu Wed Apr 18 18:18:05 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 13:18:05 -0500 Subject: Chiwere Popular Orthography Message-ID: > I might add as a final note that though Baxoje seems to be > fairly clearly > interpretable as 'gray snow' there's a possibility that > something else is > involved. The name might have been modified to support a > folk etymology, > or might simply have some other meaning currently obscure. I guess I've tended myself to take nearly all these "transparent" ethnonyms as mostly folk etymologies, but John's right. It may just have some anecdotal historical reference lost in time. > it gives one pause to learn that the Quapaw (in the larger > sense) included a village called ImaNhaN 'downstream'. 'Upstream' actually, as John no doubt noticed as he was pressing the "send" button. It was "up" the tributary from the main 4 villages that were near the junction with the Mississippi. I was talking about some of these ethnonyms with an archaeologist at Wichita State U. last week and he felt that the Pa- in Pani, Paxoje and Padouca ought to be a morpheme. I don't know that I agree, but it's true that all may be borrowings. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 18 20:02:22 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 14:02:22 -0600 Subject: Chiwere Popular Orthography In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A4414A2@skylark.mail.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > it gives one pause to learn that the Quapaw (in the larger > > sense) included a village called ImaNhaN 'downstream'. > > 'Upstream' actually, as John no doubt noticed as he was pressing the "send" > button. It was "up" the tributary from the main 4 villages that were near > the junction with the Mississippi. No, I was still blissfully unaware. Yes, it's 'upstream'. Incidentally, the Imaha group are interesting in that they were absorbed by the Caddo. > I was talking about some of these ethnonyms with an archaeologist at Wichita > State U. last week and he felt that the Pa- in Pani, Paxoje and Padouca > ought to be a morpheme. I don't know that I agree, but it's true that all > may be borrowings. I've wondered about this myself, but Siouan-based enlightenment has consistently failed to dawn. The most likely possibility is *hpa 'head' and its various reflexes, but there is no evidence outside these sets of 'head' being used to refer to ethnic groups, though in leger books and similar artistic contexts the head does stand for unfocussed and abbreviated persons. Also, though the folk etymologically modified versions of padouca (ppadaNkka, etc.) do provide somewhat obscure support for 'head' (now that they've been "fixed"), ppadhiN, etc., don't seem to be helped by this approach. I doubt -dhiN has anything to do with movement, for example. So, perhaps there is a non-Siouan explanation for these forms. I think that the pa in Baxoje differs from the other two in not being aspirated. So, it's not really part of the set. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 18 20:13:30 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 14:13:30 -0600 Subject: Pawnee In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A4414A2@skylark.mail.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I was talking about some of these ethnonyms with an archaeologist at Wichita > State U. last week and he felt that the Pa- in Pani, Paxoje and Padouca > ought to be a morpheme. I don't know that I agree, but it's true that all > may be borrowings. I should mention an idea suggested to me by Heriberto Dixon, namely that Pani, Pawnee, etc., might derive from (Sa)poney. It would be a case of converting the Poney variant of the Saponey ethnonym to apply to all enslaved relatively western Indians. This is interesting, but I don't know if the timing and sources support it. Pani(a) as a component of ethnonyms is first attested in French from, I think, Miami-Illinois sources (like Padouca?), quite early and already refers to Northern Caddoan groups. The attestations for it as a term in English for 'Indian slave' and referring apparently still to Northern Caddoans are somewhat later, but still early. (Paging Alan Hartley!) From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Apr 18 22:14:21 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 17:14:21 -0500 Subject: Pawnee Message-ID: > I should mention an idea suggested to me by Heriberto Dixon, namely that > Pani, Pawnee, etc., might derive from (Sa)poney. It would be a case of > converting the Poney variant of the Saponey ethnonym to apply to all > enslaved relatively western Indians. This is interesting, but I don't > know if the timing and sources support it. Pani(a) as a component of > ethnonyms is first attested in French from, I think, Miami-Illinois > sources (like Padouca?), quite early and already refers to Northern > Caddoan groups. The attestations for it as a term in English for 'Indian > slave' and referring apparently still to Northern Caddoans are somewhat > later, but still early. The earliest example I have of PAWNEE (as ), presumably with approx. its modern reference, is on Marquette's map of 1673. As he was among the Illinois on the upper Mississippi, and as the Illinois ethnonym is cited in Gravier's ms. dict. of c1700, Illinois does seem the most likely immediate etymon for the Fr. name. The Illinois name could still, of course, have come from Siouan. My earliest example of the 'slave' use is (in translation) from 1709, in J. C. HAMILTON The Panis: an hist. Outline of Canadian Indian Slavery in the eighteenth Century [reprint of Proc. Canad. Inst., n.s. I. pt. 1, no. 1 (1897)] 25 "Jacques Raudot, Ninth Intendant, issued an ordinance at Quebec on April 13th, 1709.."We..order that all the panis and negroes who have been bought, and who shall be purchased hereafter, shall belong in full proprietorship to those who have purchased them as their slaves." " And later 1764 in J. C. HAMILTON The Panis: an hist. Outline of Canadian Indian Slavery in the eighteenth Century [reprint of Proc. Canad. Inst., n.s. I. pt. 1, no. 1 (1897)] 23 [quoting E. O'Callaghan ed. Documents Relating to the colonial Hist. New York VII. 650] "any English who may be prisoners or deserters, any negroes, panis, or other slaves amongst the Hurons, who are British property, shall be delivered up within one month to the commandment of the Detroit." In 1767: J. CARVER Journals (1976) 138 "about the head of the Missouri are many Indian bands called in general Pawnees or Pawnanes signifying slaves. War parties from the Naudowessie bring from hence abundance of slaves" (John Koontz pointed out to me that Carver's second form is the Dakotan version, the only example I have in English.) And note G. LEMOINE Dict. fran?ais-algonquin (1911) 244 "Esclave...apanini, pani (de race am?ricaine)" (maybe a borrowing from Fr.?) It seems likely that the 'slave' use arose shortly after the first arrivals in Lower Canada of Pawnee captives. As for SAPONY: the first examples I've got are from an Eng. doc. of 1672, as and which imply (to me) stress on the first syllable, and thus a small likelihood that the name would have been borrowed without that syll. Mooney (in Hdbk. Amer. Indians) lists 22 forms in his synonymy, only one of which (but still one!), from 1789 occurs (as ) without the sa-. And SAPONI doesn't seem geographically a very likely etymon for PAWNEE, either, especially given that the 'slave' use occurs so early in Canad. Fr. Alan From ioway at earthlink.net Thu Apr 19 00:16:33 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 18:16:33 -0600 Subject: Pawnee Message-ID: I have to go some hunting in my stuff, but I remember the following in Ioway historical material: 1. Panyi is a Siouan name, relating to the erect headdress, like that of a woodpecker's crest when angry. It is significant that woodpecker scalps on the clan pipe are tied down so they do not stand erect, symbolizing the peaceful nature of the pipe, but also its potential power in war to effect peace. Of course IO also used that same headdress, the red roach (of deer tail hair or turkey beard), which signified a warrior's status. Today's Iroska (Om Hethuska etc) (straight dance) uses that same headdress, and it is significant that the Iroska was gained from the Pawnee, as part of a war, religion and adoption complex that appears to have included the Grizzly Bear Doctor society and the Pipe Dance of intertribal peacemaking/adoption. Pa seems to indicate "head" here; "nyi" may mean "water" or "life", but I cannot say as it may be a contraction of something longer in times past. 2. Padoke (var. Padunke/Padouca) was the Siouan/IO word for first the Plains Apache (in the 1500s-1700s) and then the Comanche (in the 1700s-1800s; also later known as Yetan, or Utes) who usurped the Plains Apache territory to the west and also the function of slave raiders and traders to the Spanish southwest. Padoke/Padunke was translated as "Wet Noses" or "Sweaty Noses", so here Pa means nose, as it does in IO today. [We have done Baxoje/Paxoje.. although the Omaha word is translated "Gray Snow" and the Osage word is translated "Snow Heads"] Pa is often translated as "nose" or "an animal's head" in IO. It is worth noting that the Ioway word for canada goose is Paxanye "Big Nose/Big Head" and the word for toe is "thipa"... so although one might translate pa as head, it also more basically seems to indicate a protrubance of a smaller element (nose/toe/goose head) from a larger element (face/foot/goose body) Lance Koontz John E wrote: > On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > I was talking about some of these ethnonyms with an archaeologist at Wichita > > State U. last week and he felt that the Pa- in Pani, Paxoje and Padouca > > ought to be a morpheme. I don't know that I agree, but it's true that all > > may be borrowings. > > I should mention an idea suggested to me by Heriberto Dixon, namely that > Pani, Pawnee, etc., might derive from (Sa)poney. It would be a case of > converting the Poney variant of the Saponey ethnonym to apply to all > enslaved relatively western Indians. This is interesting, but I don't > know if the timing and sources support it. Pani(a) as a component of > ethnonyms is first attested in French from, I think, Miami-Illinois > sources (like Padouca?), quite early and already refers to Northern > Caddoan groups. The attestations for it as a term in English for 'Indian > slave' and referring apparently still to Northern Caddoans are somewhat > later, but still early. (Paging Alan Hartley!) -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Apr 19 05:14:43 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 23:14:43 -0600 Subject: ... Word for "Family" ... In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A441495@skylark.mail.ukans.edu> Message-ID: > > > 2. Chuyu (could this be 'household'? fr. Chi 'house' + uyu > > 'to live in') > > Cf. Omaha-Ponca ttiz^u 'household', I think. > > Hmm, that certainly seems to be related to Kansa chiz^o, which is a moiety > name according to Dorsey. I once recorded this, but with an aspirated ch. > But it may be derived from 'house', in which case it shouldn't have the > aspiration. I wonder if one or the other involves folk etymology or if my > ears just failed me? For Osage LaFlesche's Osage Dictionary lists "ts.i'zhu" cci'z^o (cciz^u?) in connection with three clans, c^hi'z^o odhohage 'last c.', c^hi'z^o wanoN 'elder c.', and c^hi'z^o was^take 'gentle c.' For Osage Dorsey's Siouan Sociology lists "Tsic.u" Chiz^u as one of the three major subdivisions (moieties?) of the Osage. Some of the clans in that division use the term in their names. (Basically the ones LaFlesche mentions.) For Kaw Dorsey idem lists "Tci ju wactage" C^hiz^u was^tage 'peaceful c.' as one of the Kaw clans. For Ponca Dorsey idem lists "tciNju" chiNz^u as one of the two moieties or half-tribes of the Ponca. For Quapaw Dorsey idem seems to indicate that there were remembered c. 1894 at least three, perhaps four divisions, each with from one to five remaining clans. One of the clans with an uncertain affiliation was "Ti'ju" Thiz^u, meaning unknown. Dorsey explicitly remarks that he got no translation for the Quapaw version, and seems to have gotten none for the others, so that he uses the word to translate itself. These terms seem to suggest thiz^u, usually diminutivized (?) to c^hiz^u or chiz^u (c^ = ts^; c = ts). I assume Ponca nasalization is secondary. I take it that Bob's ear can be trusted on aspiration (as well as lots of other things), and I assume that LaFlesche was simply off in his transcription of the word. I've noticed he was a bit wobbly on aspiration of ch (ts-aspirated) in some other cases, though it's hard to tell with a dot-diacritic when the problem isn't one of editing. After all, his Osage dicitonary manuscript was published postumously and he never got to proofread it. Omaha has tti'-uz^i 'household' in Dorsey's texts. LaFlesche gives "ts.i'-wazhi," perhaps for cci'-waz^u, for 'household' in Osage. This would appear to be the term corresponding to IO "chuyu," probably underlyingly something like c^h(i)-oyu or c^h(i)-uyu. (Note that I'm offering standardized "Net Siouan" transcriptions here, not trying to suggest any particular IO orthography.) I have to confess that I associated these two (sets of) terms before this, but I appear to have been misled. The *thiz^u term seems to be associated with moieties, clans, and divisions whose function is making peace and saving the lives of captives and suppliants. They are opposed to the HaNga (~ haNka, etc.) clans/divisions whose functions include war. Incidentally, I've noticed that Omaha-Ponca doesn't seem to have any term for moiety. There is a term for the two moieties collectively. The terminology for clan is more or less homophonous with the terminology for village, too, which is something of an areal feature, i.e., I think it is true in Pawnee, too. In spite of the tendency on my part to term the higher-level divisons moieties, there are often more than two, especially three, of them. In the past I have wondered if this might be explained by mergers of separate village organizations in which two of the original halves had different names, resulting in three halves, as it were. However, three is so regularly the alternative to two, and the names tend to be similar, making me wonder if three might not be the norm. The Omaha and Ponca are the most notable exceptions, though the original organization of the Quapaw is none too clear. It seems reasonable to interpret the Ponca as a bit unusual mainly due to having been extracted somehow from the original Omaha-Ponca unity. Among the Omaha the 'Left-Hand Side' Clan is especially large and well-developed in its internal organization, so that it might be taken as a third division. (Or some incorporated tribelet.) In fact, the breakdown into three is usually such that two of the divisions are on one side of the tribal circle of hudhuga (OP term) as allied haNga divisions, opposite the *thiz^u or is^tUnga (Kaw) or is^ta-saNda (Omaha) division, which happens to accord with the location of Left-Hand Side, too, on the south, next, in fact, to the HaNga clan. And, interestingly, the Kaw call the HaNga division Yat(t)a 'Left'. One more sociological note: in skimming Siouan Sociology I was also struck by the Osage office of s^okka, which seems to have something in common with that of vizier. I wondered if it might be some sort of Mississippian holdover. From Hartwell.Francis at colorado.edu Thu Apr 19 19:55:44 2001 From: Hartwell.Francis at colorado.edu (Hartwell Francis) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:55:44 -0600 Subject: Ch.Orthography Message-ID: Hello, I want to join the party. Let me introduce myself. I'm Hartwell Francis at the University of Colorado. I've started to work on the Chiwere material we have here in our Language Center. I particular, I have sorted the Marsh database into a searchable format - there's a sample below. The reason I write in is to respond to Lance and his work on coloring books. I am developing kits and procedures for creating books. I have used picture dictionaries to create bound books. I have also developed some techniques for creating alphabet books and picture books from scratch. I would like to share this stuff to see if it works, if anyone has any iterest. Also, the best word lists may come from studies of langauge acquisition. This lead me to wonder if there are any studies of Siouan first language acquisition. Hartwell Would you like to search English or Chiwere? en Please type in the word: chief THE CHIEF''S DAUGHTER, HIS SECOND DAUGHTER THAT IS (+WN. 2-3) WA*'4'NE GI*HI NA'4HA* IYU*'J'NE MI*'4HA'4 NA'4HA* ONCE UPON A TIME A CHIEF THERE WAS, THEY SAY (+AGT. 1.1.8-9) HA*'4WEYA'4 WA*'J'NE-GI'*HI IYA*'4 NA'4HA*N#E K'H"E CHIEF-+MAKER (MALE; FEMALE) WA'NE*K'HIHI-+WAO'4; +WA'NE*K'HIHI-+WAO'4MI From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Apr 19 22:50:14 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:50:14 -0600 Subject: Ch.Orthography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Hartwell Francis wrote: > The reason I write in is to respond to Lance and his work on coloring > books. I am developing kits and procedures for creating books. I have > used picture dictionaries to create bound books. I have also developed > some techniques for creating alphabet books and picture books from > scratch. I would like to share this stuff to see if it works, if anyone > has any iterest. Would anyone else in the OP working group be interested in working on this, too? Or is this something that's been effectively taken care of in the present orthographical context. I know that various Omaha efforts in this line have been created in the past. It might be nice to put up a version on the Web that anyone could download, maybe? Some sort of alternative, computer-free distribution should also be available, of course. By the way, I've always thought that the Crow had some nice things in this line, though I have no idea if they are available anymore. JEK From munro at ucla.edu Thu Apr 19 22:55:11 2001 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:55:11 -0700 Subject: Ch.Orthography Message-ID: I would be very interested to hear other people's ideas on coloring and alphabet books. I'm actually involved in the beginning stages of two projects like this (unfortunately currently for non-Siouan lgs) and I would love to see other people's ideas (and especially techniques, procedures, etc.) on how to do this. I think this is something that speakers generally welcome as a very positive thing linguists can help with. Thank you, Hartwell, for making this offer. Pam From wbgrail at hotmail.com Fri Apr 20 00:15:16 2001 From: wbgrail at hotmail.com (WENDY BRANWELL) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:15:16 -0500 Subject: Ch.Orthography Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Apr 20 05:07:13 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 23:07:13 -0600 Subject: Ch.Orthography In-Reply-To: <3ADF6CC4.3EA9180B@ucla.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Pamela Munro wrote: > I would be very interested to hear other people's ideas on coloring and > alphabet books. I'm actually involved in the beginning stages of two > projects like this ... I seem to remember that a couple of years ago the SIL Americanists (Hispano-America) had some software for something like this, too. JEK From munro at ucla.edu Fri Apr 20 05:29:51 2001 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 22:29:51 -0700 Subject: Ch.Orthography Message-ID: Dear John, Interesting! I haven't heard about this (that I recall). One of this projects is for a Mexican language, so that would be good.... Pam From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Fri Apr 20 12:53:15 2001 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 07:53:15 -0500 Subject: Ch.Orthography Message-ID: 20 April 2001 Aloha all: I would be very interested in any assistance along these lines on behalf of the Native Language:Omaha program here at the University of Nebraska. In collaboration with Omaha Nation Public School on the Omaha Reservation we have nearly completed the construction and translation of the first two of six bilingual elementary booklets planned for the academic period 2000-2002. We were expecting to approach the Omaha Nation Public School Art Dept. to solicit illustrations. Any ideas generated from this Siouanist list could assist us in formulating illustration strategies. On behalf of Omaha Nation, I know they are looking to create picture-centered sorts of bilingual materials for the very youngest ages (pre-school through elementary). I would gleefully pass on any and all ideas to them to consider. uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Lecturer Anthropology/Ethnic Studies c/o Department of Anthropology-Geography University of Nebraska Bessey Hall 132 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 Office 402-472-3455 Dept. 402-472-2411 FAX 402-472-9642 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu -----Original Message----- From: Koontz John E To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Date: Thursday, April 19, 2001 5:36 PM Subject: Re: Ch.Orthography >On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Hartwell Francis wrote: >> The reason I write in is to respond to Lance and his work on coloring >> books. I am developing kits and procedures for creating books. I have >> used picture dictionaries to create bound books. I have also developed >> some techniques for creating alphabet books and picture books from >> scratch. I would like to share this stuff to see if it works, if anyone >> has any iterest. > >Would anyone else in the OP working group be interested in working on >this, too? Or is this something that's been effectively taken care of in >the present orthographical context. I know that various Omaha efforts in >this line have been created in the past. It might be nice to put up a >version on the Web that anyone could download, maybe? Some sort of >alternative, computer-free distribution should also be available, of >course. >JEK From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Fri Apr 20 18:30:43 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:30:43 GMT Subject: a phonetic mystery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm glad that everyone else finds this confusing too. Actually I think the word for 'steal' is written manun or manon in everything I've ever seen. Not man Bruce Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Apr 20 18:33:11 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:33:11 -0600 Subject: a phonetic mystery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Bruce Ingham wrote: > I'm glad that everyone else finds this confusing too. Actually I think the word > for 'steal' is written manun or manon in everything I've ever seen. > Not man[u] (?) Perhaps the enclitic boundary is relevant? It might in some sense block the interactions between manu(N) and pi, whereas there is no such boundary between nuN and pa in 'two'. In that case =ktA should behave similarly, and =pi with other stems. Obviously the ablaut vowel conditioned by =ktA make that something of a special case. This might clarify whether iN behaved as if it were in the stem or the enclitic. Is there any boundary in 'swim'? From rankin at ku.edu Fri Apr 20 19:40:07 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:40:07 -0500 Subject: a phonetic mystery Message-ID: All, I seem to be missing the posting that started this thread off. It's possible I may have been to handy with the "delete" key or something. could someone foreword the original message back to the list or to me? Thanx. Bob > -----Original Message----- > From: Koontz John E [mailto:John.Koontz at colorado.edu] > Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 1:33 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: a phonetic mystery > > > On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Bruce Ingham wrote: > > I'm glad that everyone else finds this confusing too. > Actually I think the word > > for 'steal' is written manun or manon in everything I've ever seen. > > Not man[u] (?) > > Perhaps the enclitic boundary is relevant? It might in some > sense block > the interactions between manu(N) and pi, whereas there is no > such boundary > between nuN and pa in 'two'. In that case =ktA should behave > similarly, > and =pi with other stems. Obviously the ablaut vowel > conditioned by =ktA > make that something of a special case. This might clarify whether iN > behaved as if it were in the stem or the enclitic. > > Is there any boundary in 'swim'? > > > From shanwest at uvic.ca Fri Apr 20 20:42:49 2001 From: shanwest at uvic.ca (Shannon West) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:42:49 -0700 Subject: a phonetic mystery In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A4414AA@skylark.mail.ukans.edu> Message-ID: > All, > > I seem to be missing the posting that started this thread > off. It's possible > I may have been to handy with the "delete" key or something. > could someone > foreword the original message back to the list or to me? Thanx. To the entire list please. I don't have it either. I'm not sure why not. Thanks, Shannon From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Apr 20 21:21:28 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:21:28 -0600 Subject: Siouan List Archives (was RE: a phonetic mystery) In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A4414AA@skylark.mail.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I seem to be missing the posting that started this thread off. It's possible > I may have been to handy with the "delete" key or something. could someone > foreword the original message back to the list or to me? Thanx. The original post was a while back. It and all of the posts except an occasional accident that Aristar has been kind enough to delete for us may be seen at: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/siouan.html This particular thread started in March 2001: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A1=ind0103&L=siouan#31 JEK From jggoodtracks at juno.com Sun Apr 22 17:46:50 2001 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 12:46:50 -0500 Subject: Ch.Orthography Message-ID: Hartwell: That is good you have worked with the Siouan Files, and Marsh in particular. For the masses of people, the Files are still in the original encoded format of early day computering, about 1985 or so. I would be nice if you could convert them into a more recognizable Net format. Jimm On Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:55:44 -0600 (MDT) Hartwell Francis writes: > Hello, > > I want to join the party. Let me introduce myself. I'm Hartwell > Francis at the University of Colorado. I've started to work on the > Chiwere material we have here in our Language Center. I particular, > I > have sorted the Marsh database into a searchable format - there's a > sample below. > The reason I write in is to respond to Lance and his work on > coloring > books. I am developing kits and procedures for creating books. I > have > used picture dictionaries to create bound books. I have also > developed > some techniques for creating alphabet books and picture books from > scratch. I would like to share this stuff to see if it works, if > anyone > has any iterest. > Also, the best word lists may come from studies of langauge > acquisition. > This lead me to wonder if there are any studies of Siouan first > language > acquisition. > > Hartwell > > Would you like to search English or Chiwere? > en > Please type in the word: > > chief > THE CHIEF''S DAUGHTER, HIS SECOND DAUGHTER THAT IS (+WN. 2-3) > WA*'4'NE GI*HI NA'4HA* IYU*'J'NE MI*'4HA'4 NA'4HA* > > ONCE UPON A TIME A CHIEF THERE WAS, THEY SAY (+AGT. 1.1.8-9) > HA*'4WEYA'4 WA*'J'NE-GI'*HI IYA*'4 NA'4HA*N#E K'H"E > > CHIEF-+MAKER (MALE; FEMALE) > WA'NE*K'HIHI-+WAO'4; +WA'NE*K'HIHI-+WAO'4MI > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Apr 22 21:06:24 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 15:06:24 -0600 Subject: Tools for Creating Reading Materials In-Reply-To: <3AE0F8C3.6F8BF82E@ucla.edu> Message-ID: In the SIL/JAARS Notes on Conputing 2000 19.2, p. 42 PRIMER-TOOL ($23.00 to non-SIL members) "Book, Primer, A Tool for Developing Early Reading Materials, with software." ART-READ-CD ($35.00 to non-SIL members) "The Art of Reading: A Literacy Clip Art Library, CD-ROM collection of 4,300 royalty-free line drawings in PCX format by SIL and national artists from around the world, includes a graphics data manager allowing searching the collection by country and subject matter, requires Windows." You can reach them at: NOC, Box 248, Waxhaw, NC 28173-0248. NOC itself is $13.00 for 8 issues, printed 6-8 times a year and a very good reference for a computer-using linguist. JEK From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Apr 25 12:41:54 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:41:54 GMT Subject: Lakota demonstratives In-Reply-To: <90.126867b0.27fa7c81@aol.com> Message-ID: With regard to the relationship between demonstratives and personal pronouns Arabic has an element -k which stands for 2nd person object or possessive which also shows up in as a demonstrative component in dhaak 'that' and haak 'here it is, take it', hiic 'thus', hnaak 'there', which is as you relate. Of the 3rd person however, although it is often unmarked, the personal pronouns have an h- element hu 'he', hi 'she', hum 'they m.' and hin 'they f.' also object pronouns -ih 'him', -ha 'her' -hum 'them m.' and -hin 'them f.', and are 'thought to be' from old demonstratives. The demonstratives for 'this', 'these' etc do have an h- element too as in haadh 'this', haadhi 'this f.s.', haadhool 'these m.', haadhalli 'these f.', hnaa 'here' also in the hiic and haak mentioned above. (Najdi Arabic data). Bruce Date sent: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 21:08:17 EDT Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: Zylogy at aol.com To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Copies to: Zylogy at aol.com Subject: Re: Lakota demonstratives Any hints that le', he', ka' might go back to very widespread triplet T, K, KW for proximal, medial, distal (sometimes the latter two are interpreted as distal and irrealis, out of sight, etc.) in spatial demonstrative systems? If so, would there be any tendency to let the distal go first hierarchically, as there sometimes isn't any great need to let go of what isn't here and now, in view, etc.? Many languages have 1st and 2nd personal pronouns transparently derivative off the first two, but few (if any- none come immediately to mind) have any from the third. Maybe its just discourse factors, and the third/distal form tends to get lexicalized? Thoughts? Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From Zylogy at aol.com Wed Apr 25 12:08:31 2001 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 08:08:31 EDT Subject: Lakota demonstratives Message-ID: Since I posted previously I've been collecting demonstratives to look for regularities of the sort I was proposing (T, K, KW- but also note parallel vocalic versions I, A, U, as in Uto-Aztecan, and also proposed by others). There is quite a bit of variability in the particular systematizations, but all appear to be based on phonological feature oppositions taken binarily, in multidimensional closed figures taken geometrically. Articulatory position orally is only one possibility. Lots of languages utilize it as the basis for systematization. Others (such as North Wakashan), use manner features. What I find interesting here is that in a way such systematizations (as well as those associated with pronouns, kinship terms, color terms, etc.) can serve as kinds of "probes" to sort out the world-view/POV choices languages have made. It will then also be interesting if it turns out that the phonosemantic framework of expressive forms (and their diachronic lexicalizations) end up in some sort of balanced relation (which I expect to be true after examining several hundred languages- but only time and statistical analysis will tell). I'll list actual examples if anyone is interested, but I fear this is getting way off topic Siouan-wise (oh the pain, the pain). Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rgraczyk at aol.com Wed Apr 25 17:38:45 2001 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 13:38:45 EDT Subject: Ch.Orthography Message-ID: Unfortunately the Crow Bilingual Materials Development Center is no longer in existence, a casualty of the loss of federal funding. So the materials are no longer available. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Hartwell.Francis at colorado.edu Wed Apr 25 18:09:33 2001 From: Hartwell.Francis at colorado.edu (Hartwell Francis) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:09:33 -0600 Subject: creating materials Message-ID: In pursuing my interest in creating materials for literacy development I stumbled across Mallery's (1888-1889 Annual Report of the Bureau of Ethnology, vol 10) discussion of the Dakota Winter Counts. Winter Counts would make an interesting class module for 10-12 year olds - they could study Winter Counts and then create their own with the help of their elders. Anyway, Mallery's discussion is in English only. I have been wondering if there are published or written accounts of Winter Counts (wan'iyetu wo'wapi) in any Siouan languages. Also, I wonder how wide-spread the practice was. Mallery cites Lone-Dog 'Shunka-Ishnala' (Yanktonais), The-Flame 'Bo-i'-de' (near Fort Sully), The-Swan (Minneconjou Chief), Black-Bear 'Mato Sapa' (Minneconjou), and Battiste Good (Brule). Specifically, do the Chiwere keep Winter Counts? Hartwell From ioway at earthlink.net Thu Apr 26 00:16:30 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 18:16:30 -0600 Subject: creating materials Message-ID: Not that I have ever heard of Lance Hartwell Francis wrote: > In pursuing my interest in creating materials for literacy development I > stumbled across Mallery's (1888-1889 Annual Report of the Bureau of > Ethnology, vol 10) discussion of the Dakota Winter Counts. Winter Counts > would make an interesting class module for 10-12 year olds - they could > study Winter Counts and then create their own with the help of their > elders. > > Anyway, Mallery's discussion is in English only. I have been wondering > if there are published or written accounts of Winter Counts (wan'iyetu > wo'wapi) in any Siouan languages. Also, I wonder how wide-spread the > practice was. Mallery cites Lone-Dog 'Shunka-Ishnala' (Yanktonais), > The-Flame 'Bo-i'-de' (near Fort Sully), The-Swan (Minneconjou Chief), > Black-Bear 'Mato Sapa' (Minneconjou), and Battiste Good (Brule). > Specifically, do the Chiwere keep Winter Counts? > > Hartwell -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From jggoodtracks at juno.com Thu Apr 26 02:56:27 2001 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 21:56:27 -0500 Subject: creating materials Message-ID: Yes, IOM kept Winter Counts based on some event. Persons marked their birth by the year's event. See: Whitman, Wm. "The Otoe", CUCA:28. Columbia U. Press, NY. 1937. p.13. JGT On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:09:33 -0600 (MDT) Hartwell Francis writes: > In pursuing my interest in creating materials for literacy > development I > stumbled across Mallery's (1888-1889 Annual Report of the Bureau of > Ethnology, vol 10) discussion of the Dakota Winter Counts. Winter > Counts > would make an interesting class module for 10-12 year olds - they > could > study Winter Counts and then create their own with the help of their > elders. > > Anyway, Mallery's discussion is in English only. I have been > wondering > if there are published or written accounts of Winter Counts > (wan'iyetu > wo'wapi) in any Siouan languages. Also, I wonder how wide-spread > the > practice was. Mallery cites Lone-Dog 'Shunka-Ishnala' (Yanktonais), > The-Flame 'Bo-i'-de' (near Fort Sully), The-Swan (Minneconjou > Chief), > Black-Bear 'Mato Sapa' (Minneconjou), and Battiste Good (Brule). > Specifically, do the Chiwere keep Winter Counts? > > Hartwell > From ioway at earthlink.net Thu Apr 26 03:22:38 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 21:22:38 -0600 Subject: creating materials Message-ID: Did Whitman list any of the IOM Winter Counts or give examples of said years? Or was it just the Otoe? It would be really cool to learn more about this! Lance Jimm G GoodTracks wrote: > Yes, IOM kept Winter Counts based on some event. Persons marked their > birth by the year's event. > See: Whitman, Wm. "The Otoe", CUCA:28. Columbia U. Press, NY. 1937. > p.13. > JGT > > On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:09:33 -0600 (MDT) Hartwell Francis > writes: > > In pursuing my interest in creating materials for literacy > > development I > > stumbled across Mallery's (1888-1889 Annual Report of the Bureau of > > Ethnology, vol 10) discussion of the Dakota Winter Counts. Winter > > Counts > > would make an interesting class module for 10-12 year olds - they > > could > > study Winter Counts and then create their own with the help of their > > elders. > > > > Anyway, Mallery's discussion is in English only. I have been > > wondering > > if there are published or written accounts of Winter Counts > > (wan'iyetu > > wo'wapi) in any Siouan languages. Also, I wonder how wide-spread > > the > > practice was. Mallery cites Lone-Dog 'Shunka-Ishnala' (Yanktonais), > > The-Flame 'Bo-i'-de' (near Fort Sully), The-Swan (Minneconjou > > Chief), > > Black-Bear 'Mato Sapa' (Minneconjou), and Battiste Good (Brule). > > Specifically, do the Chiwere keep Winter Counts? > > > > Hartwell > > -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Mon Apr 30 13:41:32 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 13:41:32 GMT Subject: Lakota demonstratives In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A44144E@skylark.mail.ukans.edu> Message-ID: 'yon' is (or was as I had an aunt who spoke that way) quite widely used in northern dialects of British English and I think in South Western rural dialects too. Date sent: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:30:07 -0500 Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: "'siouan at lists.colorado.edu '" Subject: RE: Lakota demonstratives >I wonder, is "yonder" a frequent word in present-day American English? It certainly is for me, as a Southerner. But it is regional. And I don't use the adjectival "yon" nor the temporal "yore" at all. bob Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS