From Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp Fri Feb 2 05:18:01 2001 From: Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp (Mike Morgan) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:18:01 +0900 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?2_sentences_from=81@Buechel?= Message-ID: Can anyone supply me with the Lakota for the following passages in Buechels A Grammar of Lakota (My copy is defective in these spots). p. 302 1/3 the way down: We believed him to be the new teacher. I have "[....]wicak'iya wanx lecala hi kinx he e keunxkecinxpi." p. 303 1/3 the way down. I know his uncle to be an honorable man. I have "Leksxitku kinx wicxasxa [.....]" Thanks to whoever can supply the blank spots (just the Lakota). Mike Morgan Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp From mosind at yahoo.com Fri Feb 2 18:03:18 2001 From: mosind at yahoo.com (Constantine Xmelnitski) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:03:18 -0800 Subject: 2 sentences from Buechel Message-ID: >Can anyone supply me with the Lakota for the following passages in Buechels >A Grammar of Lakota (My copy is defective in these spots). > >p. 302 1/3 the way down: >We believed him to be the new teacher. >I have "[....]wicak'iya wanx lecala hi kinx he e keunxkecinxpi." Waya'wa-wic(h)akhiya wan... > >p. 303 1/3 the way down. >I know his uncle to be an honorable man. >I have "Leksxitku kinx wicxasxa [.....]" Lekshitku kin wichasha - owo'txanla kin he'c(h)a c(h)a slolwa'ye. __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp Fri Feb 2 18:18:19 2001 From: Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp (Mike Morgan) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 03:18:19 +0900 Subject: 2 sentences from Buechel Message-ID: Thanks for the help! MWM From ioway at earthlink.net Tue Feb 13 02:01:07 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 19:01:07 -0700 Subject: Self-Intro New Member Message-ID: Hi I thought I would introduce myself, as I just joined the list. Thanks John K for letting me know about it. I know a couple of you (Hi Robert R, and the indefatigable and knowledgable Jimm GT) and have heard of some of the others (I look forward to seeing Louann F's book on the Chiwere.. does Lori know?) I am a member of the Iowa Tribe of Kansas and Nebraska. I also have ancestors among the Otoe, Omaha, Sauk, and Yankton. My particular interests are Chiwere and comparative Siouan that helps me get a handle on it. My grandmother knew only a little of the language, and many years ago, when I was taking a NA linguistics class for my undergrad in Anthro from Timothy Montler at U Montana (he was into Salish as I recall) I found Jimm and Lila W-Robinson's work on IOM. I must commend Jimm, for in those days few were interested, and he took the time and effort. He should never be forgotten for that. I have a BA in Anthro and Native American Studies from U Montana, and an MA in Anthro from Iowa State. I have been studying Chiwere since I was about 20 (I am 40 now), mainly because I was not raised in the Ioway community, but in Montana, among Cheyenne and Blackfeet. One thing I learned was that language is the heart of culture, that without the language, you cannot understand the culture. I did not do my Masters work on linguistics per se, it was more of an old style multifield Anthro approach (the benefits of small universities are that they aren't under such pressure to fit you into a "archaeologist" or "linguist" box.. what I lost in depth I think I gained in breadth). I did my thesis on the Sacred Bundle system of the Ioway, with a focus on using linguistic taxonomy to determine the actual taxonomy of the system rather than the one ascribed to it by collectors and ethnographers. I am not a linguist per se, and have not kept up with the latest. I work as a historical landscape architect in the cultural landscapes program of the National Park Service. My connections to Chiwere are avocational on one level, but deeply personal on another. I am not particularly deep in my interests about the subtleties of phonetics.. language changes, speakers differ, and family dialects often go to war... how do we maintain a language community with these opposing forces? ..it will take some time to get up to speed on some of the terminology I've seen in the archives. I am mainly interested in the language and how it shapes how we think, how it relates to ethnic identity.. and I don't know if this is the place, but the real power of the spoken word in a native sense.. how speaking something creates it in a sense. There is something magical about language.. and I do mean magic in the real sense. I guess that's it for now.. -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From wbgrail at hotmail.com Tue Feb 13 15:03:34 2001 From: wbgrail at hotmail.com (WENDY BRANWELL) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:03:34 -0600 Subject: another self-introduction Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From m.mixco at m.cc.utah.edu Tue Feb 13 19:20:11 2001 From: m.mixco at m.cc.utah.edu (Mauricio Mixco) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:20:11 -0700 Subject: another self-introduction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wendy I wish you all the best in your endeavors M. Mixco From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Tue Feb 13 23:34:15 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:34:15 -0600 Subject: self-introductions Message-ID: Welcome to Lance and to Wendy. The list has been quiet lately. Someone should ask some questions to get things hopping. We (try to) deal with morpho-syntax, phonology, history, bibliography and all sorts of other things. The whole gamut. Bob Rankin From Zylogy at aol.com Wed Feb 14 00:29:37 2001 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:29:37 EST Subject: Siouan, Caddoan, Iroquoian Message-ID: Hi. OK, a question- any feelings on the part of list members concerning Wally Chafe's book speculating on macrogenetic relationship between Siouan, Caddoan, and Iroqoian families? Don't know whether anyone wants to go at larger Greenbergian roadapples, Hokan-Siouan? Must be folks on both sides of the fence, here. Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ioway at earthlink.net Wed Feb 14 14:07:49 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 07:07:49 -0700 Subject: Self-Intro/Chiwere Message-ID: Thanks to everyone for the nice welcome! Mirzayan Armik wrote: >I have been working on morphological and syntactic analysis ofChiwere texts that were recorded by Marsh and Dorsey. I have a couple of things up on our Ioway website you might be interested in. Like all websites, it is a work in progress: 1. Ioway/Chiwere language (with links and greetings): http://www.ioway.org/language/language.html 2. Language Death, the paper by Louanne Furbee. I had a link originally, but then the paper was removed. I put it up to help our tribal members understand that it wasn't just the whiteman's school that caused the loss of our language. It was also tribal factiousness.. we did it to ourselves. If Louanne wants me to take it down, I will, but I hope she puts it up somewhere so I can direct people to it. It's important to know how things really happened: http://www.ioway.org/language/chiweredeath.html 3. Counting in Ioway: http://www.ioway.org/language/numbers.html 4. Colors in Ioway: http://www.ioway.org/language/colors.html 5. Ioway Language Lesson 1 (with sentence analysis and vocabulary): http://www.ioway.org/language/lang1coffee.html 6. Dorsey's text "Rabbit and Grasshoppers" from his original publication (with interlinear translation). I did change the free translation some to make it flow better in modern English: http://www.ioway.org/language/rabbit.html 7. Gordon Marsh's "This Land Here" Otoe text from his original (I purchased the microfilms from the American Philosophical Society), with a bit about Marsh and Whitman, as well as interlinear and free translations. I used his info on his informants, though there is differing info on the tribal affiliations of Julia and Robert Small (Jimm GT can perhaps address this): http://www.ioway.org/language/thisland.html I see there is great discussion on Jiwele vs Chiwere. My impression is that Otoe voiced a lot more than Ioway (Otoe: "taje" "wind" vs Ioway "tache", like Lakota "tate"). The Dorsey "Chiwere/Chikiwere" is, I believe, on the first page of his "Omaha Sociology" with the explanation of their meanings and use. -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Feb 14 15:24:53 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:24:53 GMT Subject: another self-introduction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: To Wendy and Lance Great to hear from you both. Best of luck with everything Bruce Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Feb 14 15:35:27 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:35:27 GMT Subject: Sky and clouds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Siouanists Something has been at the back of my mind for years. In Lakota the word given in dictionaries and elsewhere for 'sky', 'cloud' and 'heaven' is mah^piya. Sometimes also in Lakota prayers the equivalent for 'heaven' or 'sky' is waNkatuya or WaNkal literally 'up there, high up'. Therefore I wonder how to say such a thing as 'there are no clouds in the sky' . There is a verb kaska iyaya 'to clear (of clouds in the sky)' and one sees sentences like, I think, mah^piya ska wan woslal he 'a white cloud stood vertically (in front of them)'. Any ideas. Is this the same in other Siouan languages. Bruce Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From egooding at iupui.edu Wed Feb 14 16:43:46 2001 From: egooding at iupui.edu (Erik D. Gooding) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:43:46 -0500 Subject: Sky and clouds In-Reply-To: <16D6BF527E9@soas.ac.uk> Message-ID: There is a Lakota ritual expression, that means something like "on a cloudless day". It escapes me at the moment. It is a pre-Christian expression. I'll dig around to see if I can find it, unless anyone else has it at hand. Erik At 03:35 PM 02/14/2001 +0000, Bruce Ingham wrote: >Dear Siouanists >Something has been at the back of my mind for years. In Lakota the word > given in dictionaries and elsewhere for 'sky', 'cloud' and 'heaven' is >mah^piya. >Sometimes also in Lakota prayers the equivalent for 'heaven' or 'sky' is >waNkatuya or WaNkal literally 'up there, high up'. Therefore I wonder >how to say such a thing as 'there are no clouds in the sky' . There is a verb > kaska iyaya 'to clear (of clouds in the sky)' and one sees sentences > like, I think, mah^piya ska wan woslal he 'a white cloud stood vertically > (in front of them)'. Any ideas. Is this the same in other Siouan languages. > >Bruce > > > >Dr. Bruce Ingham >Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies >SOAS From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 14 17:12:24 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:12:24 -0600 Subject: Siouan, Caddoan, Iroquoian Message-ID: > Chafe's book speculating on macrogenetic relationship between Siouan, > Caddoan, and Iroqoian families? Don't know whether anyone wants to go at > larger Greenbergian roadapples, Hokan-Siouan? Jess, I did a review of Wally's book in 1981 in IJAL 47:172-178. I have not changed my general view of things much since then. I think Siouan-Yuchi looks quite good, but Caddoan only has two potential pronominal matches and that isn't enough of a paradigm to be very helpful. Iroquoian is even harder for me to justify. I think it is wrong simply to presume the relationship as Mithun does in her 1991 (?) paper in Language on active/stative languages. Nonetheless, I think Wally, Marianne and others have found enough interesting similarities to make the possible relationship worth pursuing further as more comparative work is done and becomes available in Caddoan and Iroquoian. I have said all I have to say about the larger Greenbergian groupings in a review of his book (LIA) that I did for IJAL 58:324-351 in 1992. "Hokan-Siouan" had one known effect. Wick Miller, God rest his soul, used to tell the story of driving across the desert West in the Death Valley area and stopping at a curio shop at the edge of the desert. There, hanging on the wall, was an object for sale that the owner had labeled "Hokan-Siouan cradleboard." Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 14 18:04:42 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:04:42 -0700 Subject: Sky and clouds In-Reply-To: <16D6BF527E9@soas.ac.uk> Message-ID: Warning: For some reason the original post was structured so that replies went to the sender (Bruce) in preference to the list. It's always wise to check to see where your replies to things on lists are going, of course. The list is supposed to be configured to encourage replies to go to the list, by including a REPLY-TO header pointed at the list, but various mailers sending and receiving behavior can thwart this. On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Bruce Ingham wrote: > Something has been at the back of my mind for years. In Lakota the word > given in dictionaries and elsewhere for 'sky', 'cloud' and 'heaven' is mah^piya. This is pretty much the same across Mississippi Valley Siouan, anyway. 'Sky' is usually at least etymologically the plural of 'cloud'. A stem-forming vowel -e- or -a- can occur after the plural before postpositions, etc., cf. maNxpi(y)a- in Dakotan. This said, at the moment sadly I can't recall how this works in Omaha-Ponca! I think 'sky' might be maNxpi, obviously an old CVC + pi plural formation. If this recollection is true, then could be interpreted as a fossilized CVC root form. All modern roots are V-final, except that in some compounds CVCV forms lose the final CV, e.g., s^aNge 'horse' vs. s^aNttaNga 'wolf' (would be s^uN"k"-thaNka in Dakotan), or waz^iNga '(small) bird' vs. waz^iNttu 'bluebird'. A similar pattern of truncation occurs in some diminutivized kinship terms, though it may be of a different origin there, e.g., siz^iN 'dear child' < nisi z^iNga 'little offspring'. I don't remember 'cloud' at all. > Sometimes also in Lakota prayers the equivalent for 'heaven' or 'sky' is > waNkatuya or WaNkal literally 'up there, high up'. Perhaps comparable would be OP maNs^iatta < *maNs^i-a-kta 'tall (uninflected), on high, in the heavens'. > Therefore I wonder how to say such a thing as 'there are no clouds in > the sky'. I'd assume that historically this would be akin to saying 'there are no clouds among the clouds'. In other words, I think the conception of sky was an emptiness populated by clouds, so that clouds were the thing to which attention was directed, leaving no actual term for the emptiness, except in the theological conception of stacked worlds that occurs among Siouan groups as it does elsewhere. It might be relevant that sky is psychologically very different in a grassland from sky peeping between trees in a forest or hanging between mountains in a valley. It seems less a lid and more a vastness. Easterners always comment to me on how weird it seems too see distant rain. However, whatever the etymological basis of the forms, with or without English, French, etc., and Christian influences, this conception may have changed in a given language. The formulation of 'sky' as 'clouds' enters into the compound 'blue-sky-people' for the Arapahoes. > ... and one sees sentences like, I think, mah^piya ska wan woslal he > 'a white cloud stood vertically (in front of them)'. I seem to recall that clouds walk in Omaha-Ponca. JEK From CRudin at wscgate.wsc.edu Wed Feb 14 18:54:11 2001 From: CRudin at wscgate.wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:54:11 -0600 Subject: Sky and clouds Message-ID: >This said, at the moment sadly I can't recall how this works in >Omaha-Ponca! I think 'sky' might be maNxpi, obviously an old CVC + pi >plural formation. ... >I don't remember 'cloud' at all. In Mark Swetland's UmoNhoN Iye of Elizabeth Stabler, 'sky' is maNghe and 'cloud' is maNxpi (slightly re-spelled, of course). So clouds are plural sky? From Rgraczyk at aol.com Wed Feb 14 19:24:39 2001 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:24:39 EST Subject: U.S. President Message-ID: A query: what is the word for 'U.S. President' in your Siouan language? Crow has baa-iila'pxisaahka and Hidatsa has maa-a'arutaahka (in both lgs, indefinite prefix + grandfather). Is this perhaps a pan-Plains phenomenon? Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 14 20:29:29 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:29:29 -0700 Subject: U.S. President In-Reply-To: <9e.1016cfa2.27bc3577@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > A query: what is the word for 'U.S. President' in your Siouan language? Crow > has baa-iila'pxisaahka and Hidatsa has maa-a'arutaahka (in both lgs, > indefinite prefix + grandfather). Is this perhaps a pan-Plains phenomenon? In Omaha-Ponca "President" (and other major government officials) was ittigaN=...dhe 'his/her grandfather' + 'to cause' in Dorsey's time. I don't know if things are more specialized today. The agent was idhadi=...dhe 'his/her father' + 'to cause'. The 'to cause' possessive construction occurs in Dakotan, Omaha-Ponca (all Dhegiha?), and Winnebago with kin terms. I don't recall if it occurs in Ioway-Otoe, too. I suspect from contexts in the Dorsey texts that in OP it marks what might be called ostensive kin, e.g., relations under the pipe dance, or cases like this: what might be called treaty relationships. In Winnebago it's the only construction for kin possession, I think, and is used with an incorporated root 'living' for possession of animals. (Which ties in with 'pet' possession investigations of the late Wick Miller.) Two further Omaha-Ponca examples are e=...dhe 'relative' = 'the aforesaid (or maybe just he/she/it)' + 'to cause' and ikhage=...dhe 'his (not her) friend' + 'to cause'. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 14 20:37:35 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:37:35 -0700 Subject: Sky and clouds In-Reply-To: <001AD80B.C21368@wscgate.wsc.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Catherine Rudin wrote: > >This said, at the moment sadly I can't recall how this works in > >Omaha-Ponca! I think 'sky' might be maNxpi, obviously an old CVC + pi > >plural formation. ... > >I don't remember 'cloud' at all. > > In Mark Swetland's UmoNhoN Iye of Elizabeth Stabler, 'sky' is maNghe and 'cloud' > is maNxpi (slightly re-spelled, of course). So clouds are plural sky? Oops. It appears that I got this backward. I'm not sure it affects the conclusions in general, but it does change the details. 'Clouds' are the salient aspect of 'sky', and 'sky' : 'cloud' is historically something like 'one (expanse of) sky stuff' : 'multiple (bits of) sky stuff'. It would be difficult for me to maintain that maNxpi is the current plural of maNghe, of course, for a number of reasons: the root form canon issues mentioned before, the changes in the form and use of the plural morpheme in OP (=> =i ~ =bi ~ =b acting as plural and proximate), and the present normal use of positional articles (when present) to indicate plurality of inanimate (definite) references. I wonder what the proper articles are for 'clouds' and 'sky'? JEK From CRudin at wscgate.wsc.edu Wed Feb 14 21:06:12 2001 From: CRudin at wscgate.wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:06:12 -0600 Subject: Sky and clouds Message-ID: >I wonder what the proper articles are for 'clouds' and 'sky'? Well, I have a couple of examples of maNxpi khe. We were talking about colors, in particular, 'green' (the usual 'grue' translation problem) and a speaker said: "CHchu. Real green grass coming up. Then we say sky. Ttu. Blue. The sky is blue. MaNxpi khe ttu. Manghe ttu." I asked about the two words he'd used; he clarified maNxpi ='cloud' and maNghe = 'sky' and provided a couple of other colors that clouds could be: The cloud is grey = maNxpi khe xude The cloud is black = maNxpi khe sabe Notice that the speaker first translated "the sky is blue" with maNxpi -- maybe this was just a slip of the tongue, but maybe sky and clouds aren't as clearly distinct from each other as in English. From BARudes at aol.com Wed Feb 14 21:10:00 2001 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:10:00 EST Subject: Siouan, Caddoan, Iroquoian Message-ID: Dear Jess, I once did a thorough examination of Wally's data in support of Siouan-Iroquoian that he published in the American Anthropologist. His method was sloppy because he picked an chose data from Siouan languages arbitrarily and he used internally reconstructed pre-Seneca, rather than Proto-Iroquoian forms for comparison. Of his sets, only about five had any credibility once better data were used. There are some reasonable similarities between Siouan and Iroquoian at the lexical level (perhaps borrowings), but very little at the grammatical level. I would agree with Bob that we need to wait until more comparative work has been done, in particular on the relationship between Catawba, Yuchi and Siouan with one another before we can bring Iroquoian into the picture. Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Zylogy at aol.com Wed Feb 14 22:04:14 2001 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:04:14 EST Subject: Siouan, Caddoan, Iroquoian Message-ID: Thanks. If I'm at all right about structures in languages such as these originating in serialization, there may be very little in common, at least as far as verb roots/stems, much sooner than in other language types. Two "dialects" of Yahgan, for instance, are quite dissimilar lexically. If we go further and assume a prior period of overall dependent marking structure and the jig is up. One full cycle of such shifts, with concomitant mass replacement of lexical items (skewed by form class within each type), and there will be precious little left upon which to grow a putative family tree, except for borrowings, phonosemantic "agnates", and accidental resemblances. Years ago, someone wrote (I don't remember who, but I believe it came out in the 1975 Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences- they had an entire issue given over to origins of language) that a full typological "cycle" took such and such a figure- I think it was on the order of 14000 years or so (I don't remember the exact figure). I also don't know whether or not this was based on some evidence or was pure speculation. In any case it would be interesting to know whether there was any relationship between such a number, typological inversion re verb and noun roots as preferred base forms for higher derivation (plus attrition and replacement), and the usual baseline figure given for the deepest levels of reconstructability (which is either half or a quarter of this figure, if it was more like 25000 years- again I don't remember). I saw for sale, by the way, "Hokan-Siouan" projectile points on a trip through Illinois a couple of years ago. Almost enough to make one "Algic" to the entire concept (ouch!). :-) By the way, what is the state of current work on Yuchi? Will there be a relatively comprehensive dictionary available at any time in the near future (or already?). Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 14 22:19:52 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:19:52 -0600 Subject: Sky and clouds Message-ID: > In Mark Swetland's UmoNhoN Iye of Elizabeth Stabler, 'sky' is maNghe and 'cloud' is maNxpi (slightly re-spelled, of course). So clouds are plural sky? I don't think so, but I'm not certain. I suspect the -pi or -piya that occurs on maNghe to make 'cloud' is just a derivational morpheme of some kind -- not the pluralizer. The forms I'm familiar with have an umlauted [u"] after -p-, not an i. [maxpu"ya]. I would have expected the Dakotan form then to have -pu rather than -pi, but it doesn't seem to, so I'm a little unsure of my ground here. In any event, nothing about this is obvious to me. JGT has Chiwere maNghu or maNghuwe (with [x] variants). That ought to muddy the waters some. Haven't checked Winnebago. Bob From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 14 22:47:37 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:47:37 -0600 Subject: U.S. President and cloud/sky: more. Message-ID: Re 'President': JGT gives Chiwere hiNtugaN hiNye 'their grandfather'. It's a causative construction, as John described. Quapaw has ittikaN dawe 'their grandfather' (the conjugated causative of grandfather < ittikaN de). Kansa has an exact analog of the QU form: iccigo yabe 'they have him for a grandfather' or just 'their grandfather'. (Also w/ the conjugated causative.) And re 'sky, cloud(s)': Quapaw has maNghe 'sky'; moxpi 'cloud(s)' Kansa has maNghe 'sky, "the upper world"' and maxpu" or moxpu" 'cloud(s)'. All of this leads me to speculate that the mysterious Chiwere form for 'sky', maNghu, is from earlier *maNxwu, which would be the outcome in Chiwere of the same form that gives Kansa/Osage maNxpu". My recollection is that the p > w in this context in CH. This would give Quapaw and Omaha-Ponca maNxpi regularly, leaving only the Dakotan /i/ unexplained. Bob ****************************************** Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > > A query: what is the word for 'U.S. President' in your Siouan > language? Crow > has baa-iila'pxisaahka and Hidatsa has maa-a'arutaahka (in both lgs, > indefinite prefix + grandfather). Is this perhaps a pan-Plains > phenomenon? > > Randy From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 14 23:04:43 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:04:43 -0600 Subject: Siouan, Caddoan, Iroquoian Message-ID: > By the way, what is the state of current work on Yuchi? Will there be > a > relatively comprehensive dictionary available at any time in the near > future > (or already?). Write to mslinn at lark.cc.ukans.edu (that's Mary S. Linn) and ask about lexicon. She just defended a grammar of the language as her dissertation. I don't now what her plans for a dict. may be. There is lots of unpublished lexical material by Wagner and by Jim Crawford, the latter in the APS library. Bob From ioway at earthlink.net Wed Feb 14 23:44:25 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:44:25 -0700 Subject: U.S. President Message-ID: IO is Hintuga/Intuga "my/his grandfather", like John put it. The IO "to cause" is -hi suffix. Marsh had "(government) official" as wawayin "one sent" (this could be a messenger or emissary), from Intuga. You can see the -hi also in "Chief", wangegihi, wange (man) gi (towards it, referring to it) to cause (-hi), referring to the authority and leadership of a chief. -Lance Koontz John E wrote: > On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > > A query: what is the word for 'U.S. President' in your Siouan language? Crow > > has baa-iila'pxisaahka and Hidatsa has maa-a'arutaahka (in both lgs, > > indefinite prefix + grandfather). Is this perhaps a pan-Plains phenomenon? > > In Omaha-Ponca "President" (and other major government officials) was > ittigaN=...dhe 'his/her grandfather' + 'to cause' in Dorsey's time. I > don't know if things are more specialized today. The agent was > idhadi=...dhe 'his/her father' + 'to cause'. The 'to cause' possessive > construction occurs in Dakotan, Omaha-Ponca (all Dhegiha?), and Winnebago > with kin terms. I don't recall if it occurs in Ioway-Otoe, too. I > suspect from contexts in the Dorsey texts that in OP it marks what might > be called ostensive kin, e.g., relations under the pipe dance, or cases > like this: what might be called treaty relationships. In Winnebago it's > the only construction for kin possession, I think, and is used with an > incorporated root 'living' for possession of animals. (Which ties in with > 'pet' possession investigations of the late Wick Miller.) Two further > Omaha-Ponca examples are e=...dhe 'relative' = 'the aforesaid (or maybe > just he/she/it)' + 'to cause' and ikhage=...dhe 'his (not her) friend' + > 'to cause'. > > JEK -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From ioway at earthlink.net Wed Feb 14 23:59:45 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:59:45 -0700 Subject: U.S. President and cloud/sky: more. Message-ID: RLR wrote: > > > And re 'sky, cloud(s)': > > Quapaw has maNghe 'sky'; moxpi 'cloud(s)' > > Kansa has maNghe 'sky, "the upper world"' and maxpu" or moxpu" > 'cloud(s)'. > > All of this leads me to speculate that the mysterious Chiwere form for > 'sky', maNghu, is from earlier *maNxwu, which would be the outcome in > Chiwere of the same form that gives Kansa/Osage maNxpu". My recollection > is that the p > w in this context in CH. This would give Quapaw and > Omaha-Ponca maNxpi regularly, leaving only the Dakotan /i/ unexplained. > > Bob > ****************************************** The Iowa chiefs Mahaska, White Cloud, was spelled historically different ways. Together these ways (ex: Monhaska, Monhashka, Mahaska, Mahaskan, JGT Maxu(we)=xga) can reveal some things. As Marsh/Whitman noted, "s" (?Prepalatal sibilant) was changing to (alveolar) "sh".. and JGT noted that even more recently in some family dialects, the s/sh was being realized as "x". Thus JGT has "xga" as "white", but earlier forms were ska/shka, very much like Om/Dak (again correct me if I am off base). Maha = Maxa.. I notice that in endings, often there was variation in realization between "ah" and "eh" and "uh". And English-speakers often ignored nasalization. I think the way it would have been said in the 1830s was something like MaNxa=shka "cloud/cloudy sky/sky"+"white". IO does have another term, kera/kela (I am still deciding whether to go with l or r in my presentation to the learner and I think JGT goes back and forth too), which is glossed "the clear blue sky (at dawn)", a Bear Clan name. "To" is blue, so kela has more to do with clarity.. although for water (and for thinking), bredhe is "clear." IO "maNshi" is high, as in ahemaN'shi = ahe "hill" + maN'shi "high" = mountain. But maN'shi also is related to maNgri(da), "above (as in the sky). Lance -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From jggoodtracks at juno.com Thu Feb 15 04:59:02 2001 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:59:02 -0600 Subject: U.S. President and cloud/sky: more. Message-ID: Bob: The Winnebago via Miner (1984) for Cloud/ Sky is "maaNxi". To be cloudy= "maaNxi'wi". Zeps' Lexicon concurs, adding: "maNxi', sky; clouds (collectively); heaven (R)'. Jimm On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:47:37 -0600 RLR writes: > > And re 'sky, cloud(s)': > > Quapaw has maNghe 'sky'; moxpi 'cloud(s)' > > Kansa has maNghe 'sky, "the upper world"' and maxpu" or moxpu" > 'cloud(s)'. > > All of this leads me to speculate that the mysterious Chiwere form > for > 'sky', maNghu, is from earlier *maNxwu, which would be the outcome > in > Chiwere of the same form that gives Kansa/Osage maNxpu". My > recollection > is that the p > w in this context in CH. This would give Quapaw and > Omaha-Ponca maNxpi regularly, leaving only the Dakotan /i/ > unexplained. > > Bob > ****************************************** > > Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > > > > A query: what is the word for 'U.S. President' in your Siouan > > language? Crow > > has baa-iila'pxisaahka and Hidatsa has maa-a'arutaahka (in both > lgs, > > indefinite prefix + grandfather). Is this perhaps a pan-Plains > > phenomenon? > > > > Randy From jggoodtracks at juno.com Thu Feb 15 13:36:51 2001 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 07:36:51 -0600 Subject: U.S. President and cloud/sky: more. Message-ID: Bob: Also they noted the word for "to be sky blue"= "maNxio'cho". jgt On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:59:02 -0600 Jimm G GoodTracks writes: > Bob: > The Winnebago via Miner (1984) for Cloud/ Sky is "maaNxi". To be > cloudy= > "maaNxi'wi". > Zeps' Lexicon concurs, adding: "maNxi', sky; clouds (collectively); > heaven (R)'. > Jimm > > On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:47:37 -0600 RLR > writes: > > > > And re 'sky, cloud(s)': > > > > Quapaw has maNghe 'sky'; moxpi 'cloud(s)' > > > > Kansa has maNghe 'sky, "the upper world"' and maxpu" or moxpu" > > 'cloud(s)'. > > > > All of this leads me to speculate that the mysterious Chiwere form > > > for > > 'sky', maNghu, is from earlier *maNxwu, which would be the outcome > > > in > > Chiwere of the same form that gives Kansa/Osage maNxpu". My > > recollection > > is that the p > w in this context in CH. This would give Quapaw > and > > Omaha-Ponca maNxpi regularly, leaving only the Dakotan /i/ > > unexplained. > > > > Bob > > ****************************************** > > > > Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > > > > > > A query: what is the word for 'U.S. President' in your Siouan > > > language? Crow > > > has baa-iila'pxisaahka and Hidatsa has maa-a'arutaahka (in both > > lgs, > > > indefinite prefix + grandfather). Is this perhaps a pan-Plains > > > phenomenon? > > > > > > Randy From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu Thu Feb 15 14:27:56 2001 From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 08:27:56 -0600 Subject: sky, clouds Message-ID: Here are some forms from Winnebago: maNxi, sky, clouds, heaven, air maNghira, the sky [Tiver-Radin] maxi wange'ja, heaven, sky ("sky above") [Gatschet] The following forms are interesting because -wi also happens to be the plural suffix: maxiwi, cloud, clouded sky [Gatschet] maxiwi, ka-a that cloud [Gatschet] maxiwi nige, "piece of cloud" (lit., "cloud forming") [Gatschet] maNxiwi, cloud [Radin-Marino] maxiwixiwi, cloudy [Gatschet] MaNxiwimaniga, He who Walks in the Cloud, a personal name in the Bird Clan [Radin] MaNxiwiwak'anjaNk'a, Sacred Cloud, a personal name in the Bird Clan [Radin] The Winnebago also have another word for cloud that also seems to mean "sky": ke(ra), (the) cloud [Radin-Marino] K'eratcosepga, Black Sky (the firmament), a personal name in the Bird Clan [Radin] The last seems to come from k'era, "the sky," tco, "blue," and sep, "black," with -ga indicating a personal name. Sometimes the sky is denoted in the following way: tcora, sky ("the blue") [Radin-Marino] From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu Thu Feb 15 14:52:46 2001 From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 08:52:46 -0600 Subject: President Message-ID: I can only find one source for Winnebago that has their term for the US president: Hitc�ke H�rera, Our Great Father, the President [Gatschet]. This actually means "Our Grandfather." Foster, who collected his material in 1853, has the following of interest: huNk hiaNtc hirera, the chief our father, a title for an Indian agent. From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Thu Feb 15 15:11:41 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:11:41 -0600 Subject: U.S. President and cloud/sky: more. Message-ID: > Also they noted the word for "to be sky blue"= "maNxio'cho". jgt That confirms that the -u in maNxu or maNghu is the remnant of a suffix that had a -u. Thanks! So I'm still convinced that there's a -pu suffix wandering about in here somewhere. It is conceivable that it is the pluralizer/nominalizer, -pi, but then we'd have irregular passage of the -i to -u. But of course -pi ~ -u contextually in Dakotan.... So who knows. There's certainly precedent for plural -pi being bleached of its plural meaning and becoming a noun formative in Dakotan. Sara Trechter (I think) did a paper on some of these at one of the more recent Siouan Conferences. A good example is tipi /thipi/. For those interested in the cultural aspects of blue skies and clouds, LaFlesche's Osage Dictionary has a number of references to the importance of clear blue skies, etc. in Osage prayer rituals. A computer search for "cloud" in the dict. turned up quite a variety of terms and references. Bob From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Thu Feb 15 15:55:09 2001 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 08:55:09 -0700 Subject: U.S. President Message-ID: Lakhota also uses 'his/her grandfather' (thuNkas^ila) -- but that term is also used for the head of other kinds of organizations or groups. The word "thunkas^silapi", lit. 'their grandfather(s)' is used for the US government, though one source also glosses it as 'elders". Normally, -pi pluralizes the possessor, not the possessed. If you're curious, Wichita for 'president' (i':ri7asiwa:c7A) translates 'Big Chief'. Is that because Wichita is not Siouan, or because they're in the Southern plains? DAvid David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado Campus Box 295 Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > A query: what is the word for 'U.S. President' in your Siouan language? Crow > has baa-iila'pxisaahka and Hidatsa has maa-a'arutaahka (in both lgs, > indefinite prefix + grandfather). Is this perhaps a pan-Plains phenomenon? > > Randy > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Feb 15 17:02:38 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:02:38 -0700 Subject: U.S. President In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > If you're curious, Wichita for 'president' (i':ri7asiwa:c7A) > translates 'Big Chief'. Is that because Wichita is not Siouan, or because > they're in the Southern plains? Very curious, actually! Now I wonder about Pawnee and Arikara, which are clearly Northern Plains as well as Northern Caddoan. JEK From egooding at iupui.edu Thu Feb 15 22:46:35 2001 From: egooding at iupui.edu (Erik D. Gooding) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:46:35 -0500 Subject: clouds in Stoney In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here are the cloud terms I collected for the two Stoney dialects: Mountain: ohanthi Forest: Ohazi I didn't collect terms for president, since all Stoney live in Canada. I guess I should have asked for a term for Prime Minister, but I didn't. The word for queen I got from one person was wiNyahuNga ''woman-beloved" Erik At 08:27 AM 02/15/2001 -0600, Richard L. Dieterle wrote: >Here are some forms from Winnebago: > >maNxi, sky, clouds, heaven, air >maNghira, the sky [Tiver-Radin] >maxi wange'ja, heaven, sky ("sky above") [Gatschet] > >The following forms are interesting because -wi also happens to be the plural >suffix: > >maxiwi, cloud, clouded sky [Gatschet] >maxiwi, ka-a that cloud [Gatschet] >maxiwi nige, "piece of cloud" (lit., "cloud forming") [Gatschet] >maNxiwi, cloud [Radin-Marino] >maxiwixiwi, cloudy [Gatschet] >MaNxiwimaniga, He who Walks in the Cloud, a personal name in the Bird Clan >[Radin] >MaNxiwiwak'anjaNk'a, Sacred Cloud, a personal name in the Bird Clan [Radin] > >The Winnebago also have another word for cloud that also seems to mean "sky": > >ke(ra), (the) cloud [Radin-Marino] >K'eratcosepga, Black Sky (the firmament), a personal name in the Bird Clan >[Radin] > >The last seems to come from k'era, "the sky," tco, "blue," and sep, "black," >with -ga indicating a personal name. > >Sometimes the sky is denoted in the following way: > >tcora, sky ("the blue") [Radin-Marino] > > > > > > From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Thu Feb 15 22:29:07 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:29:07 -0600 Subject: U.S. President Message-ID: > If you're curious, Wichita for 'president' (i':ri7asiwa:c7A) > translates 'Big Chief'. Is that because Wichita is not Siouan, or > because they're in the Southern plains? Good question. In addition to the Quapaw form I cited, that language also has 'wajini kahike' for President. Wajini is 'whiteman < Virginia' and kahike is 'chief'. I took it to be a neologism because of the word order, but a large group of Quapaws lived with the Caddos in the 19th century. Interestingly, Osage has the borrowing 'wacini' from 'Virginia' also, but there it means "disease". :-) Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Feb 15 23:37:01 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:37:01 -0700 Subject: Quapaw & Caddo (was Re: U.S. President) In-Reply-To: <3A8C5832.A1AEAA86@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, RLR wrote: > Good question. In addition to the Quapaw form I cited, that language > also has 'wajini kahike' for President. Wajini is 'whiteman < Virginia' > and kahike is 'chief'. I took it to be a neologism because of the word > order, but a large group of Quapaws lived with the Caddos in the 19th > century. In fact, the Ima(N)haN village group merged with the Caddo. JEK From shanwest at uvic.ca Thu Feb 15 23:46:13 2001 From: shanwest at uvic.ca (Shannon West) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:46:13 -0800 Subject: Sky and clouds In-Reply-To: <3A8B0488.EF62D882@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of RLR > Sent: February 14, 2001 2:20 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Sky and clouds > > > > In Mark Swetland's UmoNhoN Iye of Elizabeth Stabler, 'sky' > is maNghe and 'cloud' is maNxpi (slightly re-spelled, of > course). So clouds are plural sky? > > I don't think so, but I'm not certain. I suspect the -pi or -piya that > occurs on maNghe to make 'cloud' is just a derivational > morpheme of some > kind -- not the pluralizer. The forms I'm familiar with have > an umlauted > [u"] after -p-, not an i. [maxpu"ya]. I would have expected > the Dakotan > form then to have -pu rather than -pi, but it doesn't seem > to, so I'm a > little unsure of my ground here. In any event, nothing about this is > obvious to me. For Assiniboine, I've got maxpiya for 'sky' and amaxpiya for 'cloud', and aohazi for 'cloudy'. That last one is from Jerome Fourstar's Assiniboine Dictionary, the others from my notes. Shannon From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 16 06:57:24 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:57:24 -0700 Subject: U.S. President (fwd) Message-ID: I asked David Costa and Michael McCafferty about 'president' in Algonquian languages. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:57:15 -0800 From: David Costa To: Michael Mccafferty , Koontz John E Subject: Re: U.S. President (fwd) /meetaahtsoopia/, actually. Means 'government', mainly. It literally means 'ten-sitter'. It has straight cognates in Fox and Ottawa, so it's not just some perverse Miami fluke, either. Next question: I have NO IDEA why the word for 'government' should be 'ten-sitter'. ... From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 16 07:07:36 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:07:36 -0700 Subject: U.S. President In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, Koontz John E wrote: > Very curious, actually! Now I wonder about Pawnee and Arikara, which are > clearly Northern Plains as well as Northern Caddoan. Arikara ati'pa? 'my grandfather' a'pa? 'your grandfather' ipa'hni? 'his grandfather' ati'pAt 'President of the United States' These terms look related, but, as it's Caddoan, I hesitate to assert this definitely. JEK (From An English-Arikara Student Dictionary, ed. by Douglas R. Parks.) V' = accented vowel, A = voiceless a, ? = glottal stop From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 16 08:47:41 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:47:41 -0700 Subject: U.S. President and cloud/sky: more. In-Reply-To: <3A8B0B08.1A5CB4A7@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, RLR wrote: > And re 'sky, cloud(s)': > > Quapaw has maNghe 'sky'; moxpi 'cloud(s)' > Kansa has maNghe 'sky, "the upper world"' and maxpu" or moxpu" > 'cloud(s)'. > > All of this leads me to speculate that the mysterious Chiwere form for > 'sky', maNghu, is from earlier *maNxwu, which would be the outcome in > Chiwere of the same form that gives Kansa/Osage maNxpu". My recollection > is that the p > w in this context in CH. This would give Quapaw and > Omaha-Ponca maNxpi regularly, leaving only the Dakotan /i/ unexplained. Here's my take on this. Note that Dorsey, in 1885 article 'On the Comparative Phonolpogy of Four Siouan Languages', gives as set 92 'sky': Da ma-qpi-ya; Po (OP) ma-qpi; Ks ma-qpu"; Os ma-qpu"; Ch. ma-xu (I), ma-xue (Ot); Wi (Ho) maxi-da. His q is modern x; his x is modern gh (gamma). He tends in this to give Winnebago -ra as -da. The -ra (or =ra) is identified as the definite article and has functions in marking relative clauses. I'm not sure if it is properly a "definite" article, but it is probably not wrong to call it an article in some sense, and it is not an indefinite article. Summarizing the forms supplied in which maNx- occurs: Language Te OP Ks Os IO Wi 'sky' - maN'ghe maNghe maNghe - - 'cloud' maxpi'ya maN'xpi maNxpu" maNxp[i?] maN'ghu(e) maNaNxi'(wi) In Teton, compare maNxpi'xpiya 'scatering clouds' (reduplicated); also maNxpi'ohaNzi 'a shadow caused by a cloud', maNxpiyohaNzizi 'the passage of clouds, at intervlas obstructing the sunlight'. Winnebago maN(aN)xi=ra is just maNaNxi' with =ra. Winnebago maNaNxioc^o is maNaNxi' + oco 'be blue in/there'. IO "mo"xpi" attributed in Good Tracks to Maximillien, sure looks like Omaha-Ponca to me. Os maNxpi per LaFlesche could be maNxpu", given LaFlesche's difficulties with u". IO maNghue is clearly a spelling variant of maNghuwe. IO maNghu(we) in the maNxuwe variant reduplicates as maNghughuwe. In languages that lack a form in the first row, the form in the second row takes the interpretation 'sky; cloud(s)'. 'Cloud(s)' is also rendered 'cloudy' in translations. Reconstructions. Form 1 is *maN'ghe. For the moment I'll avoid the waN vs maN issue. Form 2 is *maN'xpi. The developments of form 1 don't seem to pose any problems. Note that those languages that lack it have homophones, mainly *maNgh- 'field'. The second form acquires a formant -ya in Dakotan. This disappears in some compounds, though not maNxpiyatho 'blue sky; Arapahoe'. And it's difficult to argue this convincingly as the only compound I have is V-initial, making a V1 + V2 => V2 contraction argument possible. However, compare the flat absence of any such extension elsewhere, except Winnebago, to which I'll return, and the existence of other root + ya nouns that lose -ya in compounds, e.g., wiN(yaN) 'woman', khe(ya) 'turtle', he(ya) 'louse', iN(yaN) 'stone' (cf. B&D, p. 71). Also the pattern of insertion of -ya after many CV nouns before certain postpositions, e.g., with thi- 'dwelling', mniN- 'water', ble- 'lake', c^haN- 'woods', xe- 'away from camp; mountains?' (cf. B&D, p. 144). A similar pattern occurs with appended a or ablaut in Omaha-Ponca with certain postpositions, e.g., ttiatta 'in the house'. The Dakotan postpositions are -ta, -taya, -taNhaN. The OP ones are -di, -tta, -ttadi, ttahaN, sometimes others. In OP, the forms remains intact. In Ks and posibly Os for reasons as yet unclear final i becomes u". This might be the influence of the preceding p, but there are other cases of unexpected u" for *i and unexpected i for *u, and OP and Qu both merge *u and *i, while Ks and Os shift *u to u". In IO, *maNxpi > *maNxwi regularly, and this is reinterpreted as maNxu(w)e, presumbly via maNxui. Compare IO xume, xumi 'stinky' with OP xwiN 'phew!'. For the developments of *xp, cf. Te xpe'c^a(ka) 'faint, exhausted', Os xpeka 'languid, drooping', IO xwe'ge 'week, feeble, drousy'. The final change is the loss of -(w)e in some usages. Wi maNaNxi'wi is the regular development of maN'xpi. But -wi is one of the plural enclitics, cf. Dakotan -pi, OP -bi ~ -i, etc., so it is often deleted through a reanalysis process, yielding maNaNxi'. And the enclitic article =ra can be added to this reduced form. Whether or not this =ra is to be connected with the Dakotan -ya extensions and insertions, the Omaha-Ponca -(y)a insertions, and perhaps the readines of IO to delete an apparently extraneous -(w)e at the end of a word is, again, a separate issue. Yet another issue is whether *maN'xpi 'cloud(s), cloudy' is the plural of *maN'gh(e) 'sky'. Clearly the concepts of 'sky' and 'cloud(s)' connect well today in many cases and I don't see any real semantic difficulty in treating 'cloud(s)' as 'pieces of sky, skies'. However, whatever the nature and origin of the final -e of *maNghe, it is true that the Mississippi Valley plural marker pi (and, as far as I know, all Siouan plural markers) is notorious for preferring to mutate -e to -a. Also, Bob Rankin has argued powerfully that we should probably see -pi as -api even in synchronic cases, so perhaps the plural of *maN'ghe should be expected to be *maNghapi. (How do you * a *-ed form to indicate that it doesn't occur?) Note that the CSD draft reports cognates for form 1 'sky' in Crow-Hidatsa and Southeastern. The CH forms seem a bit difficult. Form 2 'cloud(s)' (albeit the Dakotan form is included under 'sky') seems to be restricted to Mississippi Valley. The 'rounding is secondary in Dhegiha' approach is adopted in 'cloud(s)'. John Koontz From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 16 09:17:00 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 02:17:00 -0700 Subject: U.S. President and cloud/sky: more. (fwd) Message-ID: Oops. This ought to have gone to the list. Nailed by the return to what problem in spite of my own good advice. JEK ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 02:07:25 -0700 (MST) From: Koontz John E To: Lance Foster Subject: Re: U.S. President and cloud/sky: more. On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > The Iowa chiefs Mahaska, White Cloud, was spelled historically different > ways. Together these ways (ex: Monhaska, Monhashka, Mahaska, Mahaskan, JGT > Maxu(we)=xga) can reveal some things. I suspect the spellings of 'White Cloud' are intended to render MaNgheska, in which maNghe is the "form 1" 'sky' term not otherwise attested in Ioway-Otoe and Winnebago. I wonder if the name is borrowed froma language that does have this term or if this is a relict. I can't think of any way to be sure! I suppose the name might be MaNghuska, too. > As Marsh/Whitman noted, "s" (?Prepalatal sibilant) was changing to v> (alveolar) "sh".. and JGT noted that even more recently in some family > dialects, the s/sh was being realized as "x". Thus JGT has "xga" as > "white", but earlier forms were ska/shka, very much like Om/Dak (again > correct me if I am off base). I think hka is a variant of (older) ska ~ (newer) ka. > IO does have another term, kera/kela (I am still deciding whether to go > with l or r in my presentation to the learner and I think JGT goes back and > forth too), which is glossed "the clear blue sky (at dawn)", a Bear Clan > name. "To" is blue, so kela has more to do with clarity.. although for > water (and for thinking), bredhe is "clear." Notice that here we have IO ? khera, cf. Dieterle's report of Wi kera, and LaFlesche has kkedha 'sky, the unclouded or clear sky. (What is the source for the IO form, by the way?) Teton has kheya 'to make a roof of', analyzed as a causative of 'turtle' by Buechel. I'm not sure if that's a clue or a red herring. I think earth is a turtle shell, but not the sky. Also, while one might wonder about *hkera 'sky', there's this from David Costa: ==== Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:58:59 -0800 From: David Costa To: Koontz John E , Michael Mccafferty Subject: Re: Sky and clouds (fwd) A Miami-Illinois word for 'sky'? Certainly, /kii$ikwi/. ===== The $ is s^. > IO "maNshi" is high, as in ahemaN'shi = ahe "hill" + maN'shi "high" = > mountain. But maN'shi also is related to maNgri(da), "above (as in the > sky). The first has a cognate in Omaa-Ponca. I think the second is perhaps not related, though it has the same first syllable. Also, compare Dakotan {waNkatuya or WaNkal literally 'up there, high up'}, offered by Bruce Ingham with Winnebago {maxi wange'ja, heaven, sky ("sky above") [Gatschet]}, offered by Richard Dieterle, in which waNka- matches waNge-, implying *waNk(e) 'high'. I'm not sure if the first part of IO maNgrida is related or not. JEK From ioway at earthlink.net Fri Feb 16 13:15:36 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 06:15:36 -0700 Subject: U.S. President and cloud/sky: more. (fwd) Message-ID: > > > I suspect the spellings of 'White Cloud' are intended to render MaNgheska, > in which maNghe is the "form 1" 'sky' term not otherwise attested in > Ioway-Otoe and Winnebago. I wonder if the name is borrowed froma language > that does have this term or if this is a relict. I can't think of any way > to be sure! I suppose the name might be MaNghuska, too. Something to consider...JGT may have some thoughts on this. > > > I think hka is a variant of (older) ska ~ (newer) ka. I think there was a change from shka to ska to a kind of lisping ska/thka, then finally thka. Whitman describes this. Don't know why.. that's why I'm here.. to learn :-) > > Notice that here we have IO ? khera, cf. Dieterle's report of Wi kera, and > LaFlesche has kkedha 'sky, the unclouded or clear sky. (What is the > source for the IO form, by the way?) I have to go through my horrible mess of a filing system for the short form, but one source is Skinner's list of gentes (1926:193) in which one subgentes of the Buffalo Gens/Clan is given as " Kxe'rata' ", "Clear Day." I know I have seen the short form Kera as well, in another work of Skinner's. > Teton has kheya 'to make a roof of', > analyzed as a causative of 'turtle' by Buechel. I'm not sure if that's a > clue or a red herring. I think earth is a turtle shell, but not the sky. IO has "ketan" as turtle. IO tended to look at the earth as a domed lodge, and the earth as an Island, but Turtle was conceived as being one of the layers of the World, and it is possible to think of the sky as the inside of a domed shell. The archaeological antecedent of the IOM was Oneota, and Oneota was a heavily intertribal/interlinguistic phenomenon involved with much trading up and down the Mississippi and Missouri, a role the Ioway continued into historic times. -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu Fri Feb 16 16:57:59 2001 From: jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu (John P. Boyle) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:57:59 -0600 Subject: Sky and clouds In-Reply-To: <001601c097a9$7bad5c40$6436688e@fsh.uvic.ca> Message-ID: Just to throw out the Hidatsa forms for sky and clouds. 'Sky' is ahpaaxi which can also be used for 'clouds'. 'Clouds' can also be ahpaaxi-aru-ohxaadi 'sky-REL-white' or 'those that are white in the sky' which can be compared to 'sky-blue' ahpaaxi-aru-do'ohi 'sky-REL-blue'. Clearly the Hidatsa sky/cloud word is cognate with the other (cloud) words discusseds thus far. John Boyle From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Fri Feb 16 15:44:26 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:44:26 GMT Subject: Sky and clouds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes it had occurred to me that living on the Plains would make a difference in one's concept of sky and clouds. I suppose the 'clouds' are seen as a reduction of the 'vastness' to specific entities. On a sailing note in England we talk about the 'sea-side' and in America and Australia I hear people refer more often to 'the Ocean', presumably because the only sea you've got is an ocean. The colour is different too. We distinguish 'grey water sailors' around the estuaries, 'green water sailors' in the English channeI and North Sea and 'blue water sailors' who cross the oceans. On days without any clouds in the sky I heard people saying "thowaN'z^ic^a" (tho + waNz^i' -ka) - something like "all blue" or "whole blue". I don't have Buechel on hand right now but I think he has this word in his dictionary too. Thanks Jan I think that occurs in Buechel too. That would obviously be the way it would be done. Bruce Date sent: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:04:42 -0700 (MST) Send reply to: Koontz John E From: Koontz John E To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Sky and clouds > Therefore I wonder how to say such a thing as 'there are no clouds in > the sky'. I'd assume that historically this would be akin to saying 'there are no clouds among the clouds'. In other words, I think the conception of sky was an emptiness populated by clouds, so that clouds were the thing to which attention was directed, leaving no actual term for the emptiness, except in the theological conception of stacked worlds that occurs among Siouan groups as it does elsewhere. It might be relevant that sky is psychologically very different in a grassland from sky peeping between trees in a forest or hanging between mountains in a valley. It seems less a lid and more a vastness. Easterners always comment to me on how weird it seems too see distant rain. However, whatever the etymological basis of the forms, with or without English, French, etc., and Christian influences, this conception may have changed in a given language. The formulation of 'sky' as 'clouds' enters into the compound 'blue-sky-people' for the Arapahoes. > ... and one sees sentences like, I think, mah^piya ska wan woslal he > 'a white cloud stood vertically (in front of them)'. I seem to recall that clouds walk in Omaha-Ponca. JEK Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Fri Feb 16 16:10:23 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 16:10:23 GMT Subject: clouds in Stoney In-Reply-To: <4.1.20010215174059.0097c6a0@imap1.iupui.edu> Message-ID: That's interesting they're cognate with the words for 'shade, shadow' in Lakota, ohaNzi. Do these then mean shadow of the cloud on the mountains or forest? Queen Victoria was referred to as the Grandmother uNci or uNcis^i in Lakota and Canada as uNci thamakhoche 'Grandmother land', but I'm sure you know that. Presumably they've forgotten about Queen Vic. Bruce Date sent: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:46:35 -0500 Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: "Erik D. Gooding" To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu, siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: clouds in Stoney Here are the cloud terms I collected for the two Stoney dialects: Mountain: ohanthi Forest: Ohazi I didn't collect terms for president, since all Stoney live in Canada. I guess I should have asked for a term for Prime Minister, but I didn't. The word for queen I got from one person was wiNyahuNga ''woman-beloved" Erik At 08:27 AM 02/15/2001 -0600, Richard L. Dieterle wrote: >Here are some forms from Winnebago: > >maNxi, sky, clouds, heaven, air >maNghira, the sky [Tiver-Radin] >maxi wange'ja, heaven, sky ("sky above") [Gatschet] > >The following forms are interesting because -wi also happens to be the plural >suffix: > >maxiwi, cloud, clouded sky [Gatschet] >maxiwi, ka-a that cloud [Gatschet] >maxiwi nige, "piece of cloud" (lit., "cloud forming") [Gatschet] >maNxiwi, cloud [Radin-Marino] >maxiwixiwi, cloudy [Gatschet] >MaNxiwimaniga, He who Walks in the Cloud, a personal name in the Bird Clan >[Radin] >MaNxiwiwak'anjaNk'a, Sacred Cloud, a personal name in the Bird Clan [Radin] > >The Winnebago also have another word for cloud that also seems to mean "sky": > >ke(ra), (the) cloud [Radin-Marino] >K'eratcosepga, Black Sky (the firmament), a personal name in the Bird Clan >[Radin] > >The last seems to come from k'era, "the sky," tco, "blue," and sep, "black," >with -ga indicating a personal name. > >Sometimes the sky is denoted in the following way: > >tcora, sky ("the blue") [Radin-Marino] > > > > > > Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 16 16:37:33 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:37:33 -0700 Subject: ska, s^ka, xja, ka, etc. In-Reply-To: <3A8D27F7.6C71D1A7@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > > I think hka is a variant of (older) ska ~ (newer) ka. > > I think there was a change from shka to ska to a kind of lisping ska/thka, then > finally thka. Whitman describes this. Don't know why.. that's why I'm here.. to > learn :-) The comparativist's appreciation of the situation is that most of the Mississippi Valley Siouan languages have s/s^/x contrasts (and at least some voiced z/z^/gh contrasts) in the fricatives. These occur in older examples of Ioway-Otoe more or less matched with the other languages in cognate sets, like *ska 'white'. However, for a long time now Ioway-Otoe has been shifting s to (i.e., theta) and s^ to s. My recollection is that x stays put. Z/z^/gh troop/do not troop along in unison with s/s^/x. In addition there is some tendency for sk to become hk, which, of course, conflicts with the tendency of s to become , leading to k ~ hk doublets. And, in older sources you find sk still. The shift of s^ (or sh) to s is less absolute, if I recall, so that s^ variants tend to still occur. Naturally, this is all somewhat complicated by the existence in Ioway-Otoe of the same pattern of sound symbolism with fricatives that occurs in other Siouan languages, so that one might expect for ska sound symbolic grades of s^ka and *xka. I think xk tends to be rare to non-existent because of constraints on clusters. Some Stoney dialects also shift s to , and Ofo in the Southeast shifts it to f. In Mandan, to everyone's amazement, s and s^ are interchanged. Hu Matthews has a paper in IJAL c. 1970 addressing the Mandan situation and some others. Siouanists pondering these problems tend to spend a lot of time squinting askew, frowning, and counting on their fingers. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 16 16:45:34 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:45:34 -0700 Subject: Cf. IO khera 'sky' In-Reply-To: <3A8D27F7.6C71D1A7@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > > Notice that here we have IO ? khera, cf. Dieterle's report of Wi kera, and > > LaFlesche has kkedha 'sky, the unclouded or clear sky. (What is the > > source for the IO form, by the way?) (JEK speaking) > > I have to go through my horrible mess of a filing system for the short form, but > one source is Skinner's list of gentes (1926:193) in which one subgentes of the > Buffalo Gens/Clan is given as " Kxe'rata' ", "Clear Day." I know I have seen the > short form Kera as well, in another work of Skinner's. Thanks. Jimm Good Tracks' IOM Dictionary is otherwise such a thorough collection of the existing materials that I was surprised not to find it there. I'd say that Skinner's kx confirms the aspiration. > > Teton has kheya 'to make a roof of', > > analyzed as a causative of 'turtle' by Buechel. I'm not sure if that's a > > clue or a red herring. I think earth is a turtle shell, but not the sky. > > IO has "ketan" as turtle. IO tended to look at the earth as a domed lodge, and Cf. OP kkettaNga, which is usually translated 'big turtle', though something I saw somewhere suggested to me that it referred to a 'snapping turtle'. > the earth as an Island, but Turtle was conceived as being one of the layers of > the World, and it is possible to think of the sky as the inside of a domed > shell. The archaeological antecedent of the IOM was Oneota, and Oneota was a > heavily intertribal/interlinguistic phenomenon involved with much trading up and > down the Mississippi and Missouri, a role the Ioway continued into historic > times. I'll have to see if David Costa thinks there's anything in the MI resemblance. On reflection I think that 'turtle' itself has some resemblances between Siouan and Algonquian. The Siouan correspondences for *hkera are quite regular as far as they go. JEK From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Fri Feb 16 16:50:34 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:50:34 -0600 Subject: sky Message-ID: > I suppose the name might be MaNghuska, too. Don't think so. It was written down by a number of different people and became a place name in KS and NE, etc. It was never written with a rounded vowel as far as I know (and I've been looking at these names lately for Bill Bright's book). The most common (mis)spelling was "Mahaska". The -u of maNghu still has to be coming from a suffix. The spelling mo"xpi for sky or cloud found in Jimm's dictionary is listed as being from Prince Maximilian of Wied's word lists in the 1820's. I've written on this and we know his word list came from one Major John Dougherty who was assigned as an agent of the War Department to the Otoes at Belleview, NE. He is known to have substituted words from other Indian languages he had a passing familiarity with when he couldn't recall the term in the languages he had volunteered information about. I found a number of clearly Otoe terms among his "Kansa" contributions. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 16 16:57:24 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:57:24 -0700 Subject: Sky and clouds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, John P. Boyle wrote: > Just to throw out the Hidatsa forms for sky and clouds. 'Sky' is ahpaaxi > which can also be used for 'clouds'. 'Clouds' can also be > ahpaaxi-aru-ohxaadi 'sky-REL-white' or 'those that are white in the sky' > which can be compared to 'sky-blue' ahpaaxi-aru-do'ohi 'sky-REL-blue'. > Clearly the Hidatsa sky/cloud word is cognate with the other > (cloud) words discusseds thus far. It's nice to see 'sky' and 'cloud' again conflated. I'm a little puzzled by the ahp- vs. m (or w) correspondence, though otherwise this looks good and convinced the CSD team. The hardening in Hidatsa is what puzzles me, not the nasality, since CH loses this. On the other hand, I don't really remember the correspondences for PS vs. CH! The prefixal a- does remind me of the mechanism exhibited in a number of the Mississippi Valley languages of verbalizing the 'cloud/sky' stem(s) with a- as 'be cloudy (there/on it)'. Some of these are then renominalized. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 16 17:01:09 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:01:09 -0700 Subject: Sky and clouds In-Reply-To: <19D952D4AC3@soas.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, Bruce Ingham wrote: > Yes it had occurred to me that living on the Plains would make a difference > in one's concept of sky and clouds. ... > Dr. Bruce Ingham > Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies > SOAS I guess I should have recalled that Bruce specializes in languages spoken in places with relatively few trees. And has been there to make sure. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 16 17:07:55 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:07:55 -0700 Subject: sky In-Reply-To: <3A8D5A5A.9020205@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, RLR wrote: > > I suppose the name might be MaNghuska, too. > > Don't think so. It was written down by a number of different people and > became a place name in KS and NE, etc. It was never written with a > rounded vowel as far as I know (and I've been looking at these names > lately for Bill Bright's book). The most common (mis)spelling was > "Mahaska". The -u of maNghu still has to be coming from a suffix. OK, strike MaNghuska as a possibility for "Mahaska," etc. > The spelling mo"xpi for sky or cloud found in Jimm's dictionary is > listed as being from Prince Maximilian of Wied's word lists in the > 1820's. I've written on this and we know his word list came from one > Major John Dougherty who was assigned as an agent of the War Department > to the Otoes at Belleview, NE. He is known to have substituted words > from other Indian languages he had a passing familiarity with when he > couldn't recall the term in the languages he had volunteered information > about. I found a number of clearly Otoe terms among his "Kansa" > contributions. That would tend to confirm that. There shouldn't be any *xp > xp in IO, only *xp > xw. JEK From Rgraczyk at aol.com Fri Feb 16 18:09:08 2001 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:09:08 EST Subject: U.S. President Message-ID: Thanks for the info on 'president'. I had thought that it might have been a borrowing between Crow and Hidatsa, but the 'grandfather' term is widespread on the northern plains. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rgraczyk at aol.com Fri Feb 16 18:31:07 2001 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:31:07 EST Subject: U.S. President Message-ID: Martin and Mauldin's Creek/Muskogee dictionary has Wvcenvmekko 'white man's chief' for president. Note the Virginia word again. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rgraczyk at aol.com Fri Feb 16 18:55:43 2001 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:55:43 EST Subject: Sky and clouds Message-ID: Crow has awa'xa for 'sky' and ahpaaxi' for 'cloud'. Perhaps Hidatsa has lost the awa'xa term and uses ahpaaxi' for both 'clouds' and 'sky'. Actually awa'xa looks like a better candidate for a cognate with the other Siouan terms. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Fri Feb 16 20:52:30 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 14:52:30 -0600 Subject: Sky and clouds Message-ID: Yeah, awaxa fits maNghe perfectly, initial syllables undergoing syncope in Mississippi Valley Siouan. Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > Crow has awa'xa for 'sky' and ahpaaxi' for 'cloud'. Perhaps Hidatsa has > lost > the awa'xa term and uses ahpaaxi' for both 'clouds' and 'sky'. Actually > awa'xa looks like a better candidate for a cognate with the other Siouan > terms. > > Randy I still tend to think that in the more southerly languages *maxpu is the prototype in Chiwere and Dhegiha throughout, with -pi turning up only in those languages (QU, OM, PN) in which *u > i with absolute regularity. That still leaves Dakotan and Winnebago. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 16 21:49:39 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 14:49:39 -0700 Subject: Sky and clouds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Feb 2001 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > Crow has awa'xa for 'sky' and ahpaaxi' for 'cloud'. Perhaps Hidatsa has lost > the awa'xa term and uses ahpaaxi' for both 'clouds' and 'sky'. Actually > awa'xa looks like a better candidate for a cognate with the other Siouan > terms. Is there any process (e.g., "aku-" prefixation) that would derive ahpaaxi' from awa'xa? JEK From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu Sat Feb 17 00:21:27 2001 From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 18:21:27 -0600 Subject: sky, turtle Message-ID: The connection between WI ke, "sky," and ke, "turtle," is interesting. It could be that WI ke meant "the vaulted one." In one of the Redhorn Cycle myths, the sons of Redhorn go on the warpath against two spirit beings who live beyond the edge of the earth. They have to cross the place where the sky meets the earth. They say that at this place a loud banging noise arises from the rocking sky-vault slamming against the rim of the earth. This shows that at least some of the WI believed that the sky is a solid vault. However, Marino (from Radin's notes) says that ke may also mean "frog," but a question mark is placed after it. I have yet to see ke as "frog" attested. One form for "frog" is wakaNaNshge (contemporary Wisc. WI), wakaNashke (Gatschet, Dorsey). Another of the words for frog, toad is kewaxgu (contemporary WI, Lamere, Marino-Radin). The contemporary Wisc. WI recognize kewashorocge as the word for "box turtle," however. A very common form of "turtle" is kecaNk, caNk meaning, "great, big, genuine, proper, etc." Vide, shuNk, "canine, dog," vs. shuNkcaNk, "wolf (great canine, canine proper)." It could be that kecaNk is meant to differentiate turtles from frogs. However, it may be the ke originally came to be applied to frogs in derivation from the sense meaning "turtle." Responding to the message of from siouan at lists.colorado.edu: > > Oops. This ought to have gone to the list. Nailed by the return to what > problem in spite of my own good advice. JEK > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 02:07:25 -0700 (MST) > From: Koontz John E > To: Lance Foster > Subject: Re: U.S. President and cloud/sky: more. > > On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > > The Iowa chiefs Mahaska, White Cloud, was spelled historically different > > ways. Together these ways (ex: Monhaska, Monhashka, Mahaska, Mahaskan, JGT > > Maxu(we)=xga) can reveal some things. > > I suspect the spellings of 'White Cloud' are intended to render MaNgheska, > in which maNghe is the "form 1" 'sky' term not otherwise attested in > Ioway-Otoe and Winnebago. I wonder if the name is borrowed froma language > that does have this term or if this is a relict. I can't think of any way > to be sure! I suppose the name might be MaNghuska, too. > > > As Marsh/Whitman noted, "s" (?Prepalatal sibilant) was changing to > v> (alveolar) "sh".. and JGT noted that even more recently in some family > > dialects, the s/sh was being realized as "x". Thus JGT has "xga" as > > "white", but earlier forms were ska/shka, very much like Om/Dak (again > > correct me if I am off base). > > I think hka is a variant of (older) ska ~ (newer) ka. > > > IO does have another term, kera/kela (I am still deciding whether to go > > with l or r in my presentation to the learner and I think JGT goes back and > > forth too), which is glossed "the clear blue sky (at dawn)", a Bear Clan > > name. "To" is blue, so kela has more to do with clarity.. although for > > water (and for thinking), bredhe is "clear." > > Notice that here we have IO ? khera, cf. Dieterle's report of Wi kera, and > LaFlesche has kkedha 'sky, the unclouded or clear sky. (What is the > source for the IO form, by the way?) Teton has kheya 'to make a roof of', > analyzed as a causative of 'turtle' by Buechel. I'm not sure if that's a > clue or a red herring. I think earth is a turtle shell, but not the sky. > > Also, while one might wonder about *hkera 'sky', there's this from David > Costa: > > ==== > Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:58:59 -0800 > From: David Costa > To: Koontz John E , > Michael Mccafferty > Subject: Re: Sky and clouds (fwd) > > A Miami-Illinois word for 'sky'? Certainly, /kii$ikwi/. > ===== > > The $ is s^. > > > IO "maNshi" is high, as in ahemaN'shi = ahe "hill" + maN'shi "high" = > > mountain. But maN'shi also is related to maNgri(da), "above (as in the > > sky). > > The first has a cognate in Omaa-Ponca. I think the second is perhaps not > related, though it has the same first syllable. > > Also, compare Dakotan {waNkatuya or WaNkal literally 'up there, high up'}, > offered by Bruce Ingham with Winnebago {maxi wange'ja, heaven, sky ("sky > above") [Gatschet]}, offered by Richard Dieterle, in which waNka- matches > waNge-, implying *waNk(e) 'high'. I'm not sure if the first part of IO > maNgrida is related or not. > > JEK > > > > . From Zylogy at aol.com Sat Feb 17 02:10:35 2001 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:10:35 EST Subject: sky, turtle Message-ID: Hi. Crosslinguistically, words for frog hail either from onomatopes (which CAN be reshaped historically to conform to other perceived motivations by speakers), physically salient actions such as jump/leap or the tongue shooting out to catch prey (much rarer), OR (and this is the most interesting here) the way the frogs vaulted roof of a mouth interacts with the flat lower jaw- you see this, for instance, across much of SEAsia (in Tai-Kadai, various Sinitic, etc.). The oral portion of the frog's skull is as shell-like as any turtle's shell, and the bottom interacts in the same way, just as the flat earth matches the sky. Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Zylogy at aol.com Sat Feb 17 02:15:58 2001 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:15:58 EST Subject: sky, turtle Message-ID: And oh, I forgot to include the dynamic part- the frog's tongue zaps out to capture prey, just as the turtle's head can come out of its shell and retract. In similar vein it seems the sun is the major trajector with respect to the sky, and the day/night cycle may relate as regards the ideas of openness/closure and lit/dark, clarity/dullness. Note finally that people in aboriginal times also went out from/back into their own "shells" diurnally. Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jggoodtracks at juno.com Sat Feb 17 04:15:04 2001 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:15:04 -0600 Subject: sky, turtle Message-ID: For comparision: There seems some correlation of the IO and WI as you present it below. There is an IO story which speaks similar to the story of the Red Horn Cycle. In this story, a group of ten men go on the warpath and come to the crack in the earth (end of the world). Upon jumping over it, they come to a Spirit Lodge, .... On Fri, 16 Feb 2001 18:21:27 -0600 "Richard L. Dieterle" writes: > The connection between WI ke, "sky," and ke, "turtle," is > interesting. It could > be that WI ke meant "the vaulted one." In one of the Redhorn Cycle > myths, the > sons of Redhorn go on the warpath against two spirit beings who live > beyond the > edge of the earth. They have to cross the place where the sky meets > the earth. Mayan ^shagarana at^anweNyashgun. Broge at^anwenya iyanki ugwa gigrashgun. Ruhaye mayan ugwa gigranye ki. ^sanke kinuwegra rashgun. The earth cracked and split open, and they had to jump across. They all jumped across, but one, he fell in. The earth opened and closed. He fell in, they say. (The Leader) went on with his nine men. > They say that at this place a loud banging noise arises from the > rocking > sky-vault slamming against the rim of the earth. This shows that at > least some > of the WI believed that the sky is a solid vault. >One form for "frog" is > wakaNaNshge (contemporary Wisc. WI), wakaNashke (Gatschet, Dorsey). IO= wagranshge; Also, the small green tree frog= peshge/ pesge. > Another of > the words for frog, toad is kewaxgu (contemporary WI, Lamere, > Marino-Radin). IO= chewax^u, toad [lit. "warty buffalo"]. From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Sat Feb 17 13:58:08 2001 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 07:58:08 -0600 Subject: another self-introduction Message-ID: I'll add my voice to welcome Wendy and Lance! Kathy Shea ----- Original Message ----- From: WENDY BRANWELL To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 9:03 AM Subject: another self-introduction Following Lance's steps, I'll also introduce myself. My name is Wendy Branwell, and I am currently a graduate student in the Anthropology department at Wichita State University. I am writing an introductory descriptive grammar of the Kaw language with the invaluable assistance of Dr. Rankin. The purpose of the grammar is to offer it to the Kaw as a tool for a language revitalization project I believe to have been recently initiated there in Kaw City. Any knowledge pertaining to Kaw culture and language is appreciated. To work with endangered languages is my passion, although, like Lance, my knowledge depth of linguistics is limited due to lack of a linguistic dept. at Wichita State. I am ESL certified with a BS in Technical Writing, and Phd work in literary theory at Rice University (1988). I lived in Costa Rica as a newspaper reporter for 6 years, and have lived in Panama, Guatemala, India, England and the Netherlands. If any of you know of a program seeking individuals to work in endangered language documentation, I'd be grateful for the contact. I should be finished in Wichita this August, and am welcoming a move out of the Wichita area (if ya know what I mean....). I look forward to getting to know all of you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sat Feb 17 14:59:46 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 08:59:46 -0600 Subject: Sky and clouds Message-ID: An interesting source of SKY and CLOUD forms is Kappler's Indian Affairs (Treaties) http://digital.library.okstate.edu/kappler/ in which the names of signatories are often given both in their native form and in English translation. A search for "sky OR cloud" yielded nearly 100 hits, many of them Siouan. Alan From ioway at earthlink.net Sat Feb 17 15:27:53 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 08:27:53 -0700 Subject: sky Message-ID: Ok, now for something weird in the way of unseemly coincidence... In Tewa (a Pueblo language of the southwest), 'sky' is "makowa." Source: J. P. Harrington, "The Ethnogeography of the Tewa Indians," (1916) (29th BAE Report [1907-1908], p. 45). "Makowa".. "sky".. hehe.. and it's not even Siouan... don't that burn your tail feathers Lance RLR wrote: > > I suppose the name might be MaNghuska, too. > > Don't think so. It was written down by a number of different people and > became a place name in KS and NE, etc. It was never written with a > rounded vowel as far as I know (and I've been looking at these names > lately for Bill Bright's book). The most common (mis)spelling was > "Mahaska". The -u of maNghu still has to be coming from a suffix. > > The spelling mo"xpi for sky or cloud found in Jimm's dictionary is > listed as being from Prince Maximilian of Wied's word lists in the > 1820's. I've written on this and we know his word list came from one > Major John Dougherty who was assigned as an agent of the War Department > to the Otoes at Belleview, NE. He is known to have substituted words > from other Indian languages he had a passing familiarity with when he > couldn't recall the term in the languages he had volunteered information > about. I found a number of clearly Otoe terms among his "Kansa" > contributions. > > Bob -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From ioway at earthlink.net Sat Feb 17 15:51:36 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 08:51:36 -0700 Subject: another self-introduction Message-ID: I am glad to be here. I no longer live in Montana, as I work and live in Santa Fe (for now anyway). I look forward to talking about Chiwere and comparative Siouan with everyone. I don't get to do much with it... other than talk to myself to the best of my ability.. if you think people give you looks when you talk English to yourself, think about when you talk IO aloud to yourself (or clouds, deer, etc.)..hehe I have an online group of 100+ members of the IO communities in which I act as referee and collaborator. I hope to establish an active cultural group, where language preservation and use is an important part. It will be tricky as JGT knows, as there are so many family dialects, interpersonal dynamics of sometimes opposing viewpoints, and so on. My approach will have to be measured and considered carefully, as I have made mistakes in the past and will no doubt continue to do so. I will have to mend some fences I broke when I was younger and thought I knew everything :-) I am interested in whether or not Dr. Furbee has actually published her Chiwere grammar, or if it just has the ISBN number at this time. I emailed the publisher in Germany and haven't heard anything from them. Does anyone know if it is out or when it will be out? Lance -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From BARudes at aol.com Sun Feb 18 02:16:18 2001 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:16:18 EST Subject: Sky and cloud Message-ID: Catawba has distinct words for sky and cloud. The word for cloud is namuN? (with accent on the /uN/) and the word for sky is wa:pit (with accent on the /a:/). However, the English glosses do not fit well. The word for cloud is often used for heaven and the lower levels of the sky in narratives, and the word for sky occurs in compounds for celestial objects (e.g., wa:pidnu star [with accent on the /i/). The distinction seems to be one of upper versus lower sky, or bounded versus unbounded sky. The Catawba word for sky may show metathesis, since the Woccon word for sun is Wittapare (i.e. /wita:pire:/ it is the sky). Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rgraczyk at aol.com Sun Feb 18 19:54:28 2001 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 14:54:28 EST Subject: Sky and clouds Message-ID: In a message dated 2/16/01 2:50:36 PM Mountain Standard Time, John.Koontz at colorado.edu writes: > Is there any process (e.g., "aku-" prefixation) that would derive ahpaaxi' > from awa'xa? > Not really. I wonder if there might be some metathesis involved with ahpaaxi', although it's difficult to work out the details. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Feb 19 01:01:12 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:01:12 -0700 Subject: sky, turtle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, Richard L. Dieterle wrote: > The connection between WI ke, "sky," and ke, "turtle," is interesting. > It could be that WI ke meant "the vaulted one." I'm inclined to suspect that kee means 'turtle', and that if it is the 'turtle' word that appears in this alternate word for 'sky' then in that context it means 'the (sky) turtle'. > In one of the Redhorn Cycle myths, the sons of Redhorn go on the warpath > against two spirit beings who live beyond the edge of the earth. They > have to cross the place where the sky meets the earth. They say that at > this place a loud banging noise arises from the rocking sky-vault > slamming against the rim of the earth. This shows that at least some of > the WI believed that the sky is a solid vault. This seems like an interesting confirmation of the vault theory. > However, Marino (from Radin's notes) says that ke may also mean "frog," > but a question mark is placed after it. I have yet to see ke as "frog" > attested. One form for "frog" is wakaNaNshge (contemporary Wisc. WI), > wakaNashke (Gatschet, Dorsey). I think this is perhaps supposed to be wakaNnaN's^ge, cf. Teton wagna's^ka, < PMV *wa-kraN's^-ka. The -n- appears in the citation in Miner. This does look like a onomatopeic 'the one that (goes) kraNs^'. > Another of the words for frog, toad is > kewaxgu (contemporary WI, Lamere, Marino-Radin). Miner gives it as 'toad', while Marino has it as 'frog' under ke. I wasn't able to find wakaNnaNs^ge in the Winnebago side of Marino, or an entry for frog or toad in the English side. I suspect this 'toad' form is what accounts for the "frog ?" in the ke headword. In Miner was^gu is given as 'to shell, v.tr., e.g., corn' (this wa- is the instrumental *pa). He cites -xku as 'to take off layers' (from Lipkind), and xguuxguk as 'to be scaly'. I'd gues kexgu means something like 'scaled or shelled turtle'. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Feb 19 01:21:52 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:21:52 -0700 Subject: sky, turtle In-Reply-To: <20010216.221512.-125547.10.jggoodtracks@juno.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, Jimm G GoodTracks wrote: > For comparision: > There seems some correlation of the IO and WI as you present it below. > There is an IO story which speaks similar to the story of the Red Horn > Cycle. In this story, a group of ten men go on the warpath and come to > the crack in the earth (end of the world). Upon jumping over it, they > come to a Spirit Lodge, .... Although we're perhaps wandering off of what might be for some linguistics (etymology) into literary issues, which I think we should try to avoid, this would seem to be the Omaha-Ponca story 'The Chief's Son and the Thunders' which I had not previously realized might be a part of the Redhorn story. > IO= chewax^u, toad [lit. "warty buffalo"]. In the "NetSiouan" notation this would be c^hewax?u. It vaguely resembles the Wi form, but has a different etymology. OP has ttebi?u < *hte-pix?u. The instrumental is different, pi- instead of pa-, but the root x?u is the same, and the initial syllable, apparently an incorporated *hte (cf. Da pte) 'buffalo'. I don't know what the x?u root signifies. Osage, where the root would take the form k?u has pak?u 'dig a ditch', so the idea of removing material is there in common with xku in the Winnebago word. JEK From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu Mon Feb 19 12:14:33 2001 From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 06:14:33 -0600 Subject: sky, turtle Message-ID: Responding to Koontz John E : > > On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, Richard L. Dieterle wrote: > > > The connection between WI ke, "sky," and ke, "turtle," is interesting. > > It could be that WI ke meant "the vaulted one." > > I'm inclined to suspect that kee means 'turtle', and that if it is the > 'turtle' word that appears in this alternate word for 'sky' then in that > context it means 'the (sky) turtle'. I know that some tribes of the Great Lakes region refer to the land mass (known to them) surrounded by the ocean-sea as "Turtle Island." This makes the land a turtle shell rising out of the surrounding waters. However, I haven't run across the idea that the sky is a turtle shell. Perhaps someone else has. From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu Mon Feb 19 12:36:34 2001 From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 06:36:34 -0600 Subject: sky, cloud Message-ID: Here is the Biloxi and Ofo material on sky/clouds from Dorsey's dictionary. There is very little preserved of Ofo. Biloxi: naci cloud, clouds naci kdexi mackerel sky ("spotted clouds") naci tohi the clear sky ("blue cloud") naci xwuhi the horizon ("low cloud") nacixti many clouds, the sky is cloudy naci psohuye northeast ("corner of the cloud") tunaci shadow anaci a ghost, shade, spirit Ofo: ocigwe cloud oNtaske star, sky From rlundy at huntel.net Mon Feb 19 17:05:15 2001 From: rlundy at huntel.net (Richard C. Lundy) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:05:15 -0600 Subject: Sky and clouds Message-ID: "Richard C. Lundy" wrote: > Greetings All! > > I continue to enjoy reading these materials generated by your interest in our Native > languages. Hello to Shannon West in Canada. I hope all is well for you and your > work. In response to the question re: clear sky or not cloudy, I can tell you how > I've learned it in actual on the rez Lakota. We say "amaHpiya Sni". Note that the > "H" is the so called guttural "H" often written as an "x". The "S" is as "sh" in > English. Once again I apologize for my lack of linguistic symbolism and training. > Also, one can say "maSte" (again with the S=sh) which means "it's a sunny day" or > the Santees will say "kasota" referring to a clear, cloudless day. In Lakota we > also will say "kaska iyaye" re: it has cleared up. These don't directly or > literally say "it is cloudless". That would be "amaHpiya Sni". > > Bruce Ingham wrote: > > > Dear Siouanists > > Something has been at the back of my mind for years. In Lakota the word > > given in dictionaries and elsewhere for 'sky', 'cloud' and 'heaven' is mah^piya. > > Sometimes also in Lakota prayers the equivalent for 'heaven' or 'sky' is > > waNkatuya or WaNkal literally 'up there, high up'. Therefore I wonder > > how to say such a thing as 'there are no clouds in the sky' . There is a verb > > kaska iyaya 'to clear (of clouds in the sky)' and one sees sentences > > like, I think, mah^piya ska wan woslal he 'a white cloud stood vertically > > (in front of them)'. Any ideas. Is this the same in other Siouan languages. > > > > Bruce > > > > > > Dr. Bruce Ingham > > Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies > > SOAS From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Mon Feb 19 17:33:20 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:33:20 GMT Subject: Sky and cloud In-Reply-To: <4e.119ee336.27c08a72@aol.com> Message-ID: Thank you for all the replies re cloud and sky. It is fascinating to see all these reflexes indifferent Siouan languages. Incidentally Blair's reply mentions 'stars'. In Lakota the word for 'star' is wichah^pi . Normally the prefix wicha- refers to animate plurals. Does anyone know why it turns up in the word for star? Is it from some other earlier use or some other morph. Does the wicha- occur in any other Siouan reflexes for 'star'. It is tempting to think of it as having something to do with spirits of the dead, but I'm sure that's far- fetched. Bruce Date sent: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:16:18 EST Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: BARudes at aol.com To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Sky and cloud Catawba has distinct words for sky and cloud. The word for cloud is namuN? (with accent on the /uN/) and the word for sky is wa:pit (with accent on the /a:/). However, the English glosses do not fit well. The word for cloud is often used for heaven and the lower levels of the sky in narratives, and the word for sky occurs in compounds for celestial objects (e.g., wa:pidnu star [with accent on the /i/). The distinction seems to be one of upper versus lower sky, or bounded versus unbounded sky. The Catawba word for sky may show metathesis, since the Woccon word for sun is Wittapare (i.e. /wita:pire:/ it is the sky). Blair Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Mon Feb 19 18:50:28 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 12:50:28 -0600 Subject: Stars. Message-ID: > In Lakota the word for 'star' is wichah^pi . > Normally the prefix wicha- refers to animate plurals. Does anyone > know why it turns up in the word for star? Hard to say. I'd guess either by accident or, perhaps, by folk-etymology. The form in several related languages is nasalized: Omaha-Ponca mikka'?e Kansa mikka'k?e Osage mihka'k?e Quapaw mikka'x?e These languages have no obvious reflex of a form that would underlie wicha "Man/person". However the folk etymology could have gone either way, i.e., the wicha in Dakotan may represent folk etymology connecting 'man' with 'star' (as in several traditional stories). Or the mi- of Dhegiha dialects may represent a fancied connection with mi- 'sun'. I resist connecting Dhegiha with mikka/mihka 'raccoon'. The m/w *should not* be corresponding here without a nasal vowel in the term, so there is certainly some sort of analogical change going on. The suffix is different in the two subgroups also. It appears as though -?e is a suffix in Dhegiha and the same -pi suffix we find so well represented in Dakotan nouns turns up there. So the glottalized fricative found originally in Dhegiha is historically most likely a composite with a morpheme boundary in the middle. Then the result underwent the usual Dhegiha change: *x? > k? > ? with Kansa/Osage retaining the middle form and Omaha-Ponca showing the last stage. There are plenty of other examples of this change. In the Comparative Dictionary files 'star' is very peculiar overall and hard to reconstruct. I don't have all the forms available at the moment, but I'll get them if anyone is interested. My recollection is that there are at least two quite distinct etyma reconstructible. But there are problems with both. I don't think that any of them can be reconstructed with 'man' as a component though. Bob Is it from some other > earlier use or some other morph. Does the wicha- occur in any > other Siouan reflexes for 'star'. It is tempting to think of it as having > something to do with spirits of the dead, but I'm sure that's far- > fetched. From ioway at earthlink.net Mon Feb 19 18:59:25 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:59:25 -0700 Subject: Sky and cloud Message-ID: IO is bikax?e bi = wi (bi = sun/light/moon) so I can see kax?e relates to chah?pi but could it relate to bika- hmm I don't know. However our IO stories do relate that the stars represent the campfires of the dead in wanaxi china (ghost+village) or wanaxi nawo (ghost+road) aka The Milky Way. And the father of the Holy Twins did go to live in Bikax?e Manyiskunyi, Star-Moves/Walks-Not, "the Star that does not move", aka the North Star. I find it interesting that many Native stories do not follow the popular notion that the Sun is male and the Moon is female (in IO the terms are the same, Bi) ...in IO the Twin Holy Boys, after they left Earth, one went into the Sun and the other into the Moon (while the father went into the North Star). But in IO the Earth is female. Lance Bruce Ingham wrote: > Thank you for all the replies re cloud and sky. It is fascinating to see > all these reflexes indifferent Siouan languages. Incidentally Blair's > reply mentions 'stars'. In Lakota the word for 'star' is wichah^pi . > Normally the prefix wicha- refers to animate plurals. Does anyone > know why it turns up in the word for star? Is it from some other > earlier use or some other morph. Does the wicha- occur in any > other Siouan reflexes for 'star'. It is tempting to think of it as having > something to do with spirits of the dead, but I'm sure that's far- > fetched. > > Bruce > > Date sent: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:16:18 EST > Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > From: BARudes at aol.com > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Sky and cloud > > Catawba has distinct words for sky and cloud. The word for cloud is namuN? > (with accent on the /uN/) and the word for sky is wa:pit (with accent on the > /a:/). However, the English glosses do not fit well. The word for cloud is > often used for heaven and the lower levels of the sky in narratives, and the > word for sky occurs in compounds for celestial objects (e.g., wa:pidnu star > [with accent on the /i/). The distinction seems to be one of upper versus > lower sky, or bounded versus unbounded sky. The Catawba word for sky may > show metathesis, since the Woccon word for sun is Wittapare (i.e. > /wita:pire:/ it is the sky). > > Blair > > Dr. Bruce Ingham > Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies > SOAS -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Feb 19 21:51:36 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 14:51:36 -0700 Subject: Stars. In-Reply-To: <3A916AF4.8030807@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: This doesn't add much to Bob's account, but may be easier for some folks to follow. On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, RLR wrote: > > In Lakota the word for 'star' is wichah^pi . > > Normally the prefix wicha- refers to animate plurals. Does anyone > > know why it turns up in the word for star? > > Hard to say. I'd guess either by accident or, perhaps, by > folk-etymology. The form in several related languages is nasalized: Mississippi Valley 'star': Dakotan wic^haxpi < *Wi hkax pi > Omaha-Ponca mikka'?e < *miN hkax ?e > Kansa mikka'k?e < *miN hkax ?e > Osage mihka'k?e < *miN hkax ?e > Quapaw mikka'x?e < *miN hkax ?e IO bikha'x?e < *Wi hkax ?e Wi (wiira guNs^ge) The affrications of k to c^ after i is regular in Dakotan. The k ~ c^ set is otherwise typical of the proto-Mississippi Valley "preaspirate" correspondence vs. the "(post)aspirate" and "unaspirated" correspondences. The spaces here are just to line things up. They don't necessarily correspond to morphological boundaries, but might. In particular, note that the first syllable in each case actually is the term in each language for 'luminary', that is 'sun; moon'. These forms have the same irregular corespondence, with *W in Dakota, IO, and Winnebago, and m + nasalized vowel in Dhegiha. In the Dhegiha languages, terms for 'moon' add aNba (or uNba?) and in OP the compound is changed then to niNaNba. The Winnebago term is based on wiira 'the luminary' = wii 'sun; moon' + ra 'the'. GuNuNs^ge is 'skunk', though guNuNs is 'teach, create'. The -ke (-ge in some Wi orthogrpahies) is the Winnebago and Ioway reflex of the nominalizer/"qualifier" -ka in Dakotan and Dhegiha. I'm not sure if 'star' should be rendered 'skunk luminary' or 'creator/teacher luminary'. The latter seems more likely. That sense might make some sense of *hkax in the other languages, since in all Mississippi Valley languages but IO and WI developments of *kaghe (Da kagha, OP gaghe, etc.) are 'to make'. The preaspiration in hkax is, however, something that only occurs when some other morpheme is prefixed to *kaghe e.g., *ki in some of the languages. cf. Da kic^haghe 'to make for' or OP gikkaghe 'to make one's own'. Since nothing is clearly prefixed here, we're left suspecting that we're going down a false trail. > The suffix is different in the two subgroups also. It appears as though > -?e is a suffix in Dhegiha and the same -pi suffix we find so well > represented in Dakotan nouns turns up there. So the glottalized > fricative found originally in Dhegiha is historically most likely a > composite with a morpheme boundary in the middle. Then the result > underwent the usual Dhegiha change: *x? > k? > ? with Kansa/Osage > retaining the middle form and Omaha-Ponca showing the last stage. There > are plenty of other examples of this change. For example, 'woman' OP wa?u, Os wak?o, Qu wax?o The ...x-pi sequence here is reminiscent of the one in the 'cloud' forms we have been discussing. We could possibly take it as a plural (as opposed to the "singular" in -e in 'sky'), but since the singular 'sky' form lacks the x?e reflexes, there are problems with that. About the best we can do is line the evidence up, notice the problems, and wait for some further enlightenment. Incidentally the *W set is Dakotan w (sometimes b in Santee or p in Teton), OP m, Ks b, Os p, Qu p, IO p, Wi w. JEK From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu Mon Feb 19 23:30:49 2001 From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:30:49 -0600 Subject: Stars, etc. Message-ID: Here is what I have in WI on star, sun, moon: wi sun, moon, month hamp wida sun (lit., "day sun") [Gatschet] haNhe wi moon (lit., "night sun") [Gatschet] hahewira (hah-ha-wer-dah) a moon [ge] wijahaNpi moonlight [Dorsey] wiragos^ke, pl. wiragos^kera star [Gatschet] wirakos^kera star, stars ("sun-suspended") [Dorsey] wiragus^kera (we-dah-goose-ka-dah) stars [Th. George] Wiragos^ge HaNke Dirani the North Star (Polaris), "the Star that does not Move." (cf. Crow, Ihaxaz^ise, "the Star that does not Move.") Wiragos^ge XedenaNgere The Large Star, Morning Star Wiragos^gew'iNga Star Woman, a personal name in the Bird Clan wi-hojije (> wojije) meteor [Radin] wiragos^ke ho-ikada shooting star [Gatschet] wirakos^keras^ibare a meteor [Dorsey] The word for "moonlight" might be a copying error for widahaNpi, which should be the correct form. Dorsey's analysis of wirakos^kera as "sun-suspended" is interesting. The nearest thing to kos^ke that I can find (other than skunk words) is gus, "rope." I had rejected the XIXth century translations of "sun" for wi, and had replaced them by "orb." However, I can find no instance of a word like this for a non-luminous orb (like a ball), so I will adopt "luminary" after Koontz. Wojije is the usual for "meteor, comet," and it is what they call its spiritual embodiment. From mosind at yahoo.com Tue Feb 20 03:26:51 2001 From: mosind at yahoo.com (Constantine Xmelnitski) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:26:51 -0800 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN Message-ID: Dear Siouanists: As is known, Lakhota dialect of Dakotan has two variations of aspirated stops : weak (h-like), and strong (x-like). According to Rood & Taylor ("Beginning Lakhota", 1976, 3:5), "All speakers agree that [h^] is used before [a, aN, uN]. All will also agree that [h] is always used after [c^]. Elsewhere, there is variation, with [h] predomination before [i, u], but [h^] predomination before [e, o, iN]." Perhaps that's all that could and should be said to it but I wonder what are the dialectal, positional, and etymological features of x-aspiration. 1. Lakxota-Dakhota-Nakoda dialects P.Shaw (1980), D.Parks & R. DeMallie (1992) do not tell anything about Ch vs. Cx opposition in LDN dialects. Neither N.Levin (1964) nor R.Hollow (1970) mention x-aspirated stops in their consonant sets for Fort Peck Assiniboine. However, the examples of speech published on http://fpcctalkindian.nativeweb.org/Nakona%20Alphabet.htm site cannot fully exclude the existence of px/tx/kx in Nakota. The audio-samples from CD on Yanktonai dialect (by the way, is it for sale already?) also seem to have [txatxanka] for buffalo. The Riggs dictionary is almost totaly devoid of aspiration marks, probably testifying the absense of px/tx/kx in Dakota. Yet there is a couple of exceptions, one of them is ape [aphe] "to wait for", and aphe [apxe?], var. of apha, to strike. However, the 2nd edition has WJC's note for a th^aNka entry: "The "h^" sound is introduced between "t" and its vowel quiet frequently by the TitoNwaN; perhaps with the idea of giving emphasis. I am more inclined, however, to regard it as a conventionality. I give some examples: tho, i. q. to, blue; thokeca, i. q. tokeca, different; thehan, i. q. tehan." So whether x-aspiration exists in Dakota is unclear. 2. Distribution. If we take positional rules ( x / C _ {a, aN, uN, o} ; h / C _ { u, i, iN, +/-e } ) for granted then Ch and Cx appear to be just positional allophones. Anyhow Jan Ullrich claims and David Rood confirms that px/tx/kx before ablauting -A remains in all positions, e.g. apxA "to strike": apxa pi ~ apxe shni ~ apxin kte (cp. aphe "to wait for": aphe shni). In this case Ch and Cx may be turning into separate phonemes. And Violet Catches, having designed the diacritic-free orthography for Lakxota, even regards px/tx/kx as consonantic clusters! Whether she is right or not, this proves that (some) fluent speakers consider Ch and Cx to be separate sounds. 3. Etymology. What is the amount of native speakers using both phe/the/khe and pxe/txe/kxe for different morphemes? Can we hypothesize that all the x-aspirated stops before [e] originate from -CxA verbs and Cxa nouns? Here's some examples (from Albert White Hat, Violet Catches - who show h- vs. x- aspiration in spelling) Derivatives of -pxA verbs: wi'chapxe "fork", owapxe "a strike; hour" Derivatives of pxa? ("?sharped end"): pxehin "hair", wi'pxe "sharped weapons", pxe'ta "fire" (The words with unclear aspiration: phezhi "grass", ophetxun "to buy") wi'yutxe "sign-talk" (< iyutxA), derivatives of kxA "to mean", wicakxA "to speak true" But: thezi "stomack", themni "to be perspiring", the'ca (WhiteHat) (but txecake (Violet Catches)). Thank you for your attention. Connie. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Tue Feb 20 08:22:26 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:22:26 GMT Subject: Sky and clouds In-Reply-To: <3A91524B.B8F7E8EE@huntel.net> Message-ID: Thanks Richard. Yes amah^piyas^ni is something I should have thought of. The verb amah^piya occurs in Buechel's dictionary. It confirms something I 've always thought about learning languages, which is that, if you've been working on a language for a few years, you probably know all the words that you need to know, but if you are not exposed to it in an everyday context, you don't know the context in which the words are used and keep looking for a new word, where you don't really need to. I mentioned at the Siouan conference a couple of years ago that my daughter, who learnt Persian as her first language, at the age of 1 year 8 months had 30 verbs and about 50 nouns, but seemed to be able to say absolutely everything that she needed to with very passable grammatical correctness. But then we all know that it's easier for children. Bruce . Date sent: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:35:35 -0600 From: "Richard C. Lundy" Send reply to: Richard, C., Lundy, PO, Box, 216, Macy, NE, 68039 To: bi1 at soas.ac.uk Subject: Re: Sky and clouds Greetings All! I continue to enjoy reading these materials generated by your interest in our Native languages. Hello to Shannon West in Canada. I hope all is well for you and your work. In response to the question re: clear sky or not cloudy, I can tell you how I've learned it in actual on the rez Lakota. We say "amaHpiya Sni". Note that the "H" is the so called guttural "H" often written as an "x". The "S" is as "sh" in English. Once again I apologize for my lack of linguistic symbolism and training. Also, one can say "maSte" (again with the S=sh) which means "it's a sunny day" or the Santees will say "kasota" referring to a clear, cloudless day. In Lakota we also will say "kaska iyaye" re: it has cleared up. These don't directly or literally say "it is cloudless". That would be "amaHpiya Sni". Bruce Ingham wrote: > Dear Siouanists > Something has been at the back of my mind for years. In Lakota the word > given in dictionaries and elsewhere for 'sky', 'cloud' and 'heaven' is mah^piya. > Sometimes also in Lakota prayers the equivalent for 'heaven' or 'sky' is > waNkatuya or WaNkal literally 'up there, high up'. Therefore I wonder > how to say such a thing as 'there are no clouds in the sky' . There is a verb > kaska iyaya 'to clear (of clouds in the sky)' and one sees sentences > like, I think, mah^piya ska wan woslal he 'a white cloud stood vertically > (in front of them)'. Any ideas. Is this the same in other Siouan languages. > > Bruce > > > Dr. Bruce Ingham > Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies > SOAS Date sent: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:05:15 -0600 Send reply to: Richard at hooch.colorado.edu, C. at hooch.colorado.edu, Kimberly.Lundy at colorado.edu, PO at hooch.colorado.edu From: "Richard C. Lundy" To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Sky and clouds "Richard C. Lundy" wrote: > Greetings All! > > I continue to enjoy reading these materials generated by your interest in our Native > languages. Hello to Shannon West in Canada. I hope all is well for you and your > work. In response to the question re: clear sky or not cloudy, I can tell you how > I've learned it in actual on the rez Lakota. We say "amaHpiya Sni". Note that the > "H" is the so called guttural "H" often written as an "x". The "S" is as "sh" in > English. Once again I apologize for my lack of linguistic symbolism and training. > Also, one can say "maSte" (again with the S=sh) which means "it's a sunny day" or > the Santees will say "kasota" referring to a clear, cloudless day. In Lakota we > also will say "kaska iyaye" re: it has cleared up. These don't directly or > literally say "it is cloudless". That would be "amaHpiya Sni". > > Bruce Ingham wrote: > > > Dear Siouanists > > Something has been at the back of my mind for years. In Lakota the word > > given in dictionaries and elsewhere for 'sky', 'cloud' and 'heaven' is mah^piya. > > Sometimes also in Lakota prayers the equivalent for 'heaven' or 'sky' is > > waNkatuya or WaNkal literally 'up there, high up'. Therefore I wonder > > how to say such a thing as 'there are no clouds in the sky' . There is a verb > > kaska iyaya 'to clear (of clouds in the sky)' and one sees sentences > > like, I think, mah^piya ska wan woslal he 'a white cloud stood vertically > > (in front of them)'. Any ideas. Is this the same in other Siouan languages. > > > > Bruce > > > > > > Dr. Bruce Ingham > > Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies > > SOAS Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From jggoodtracks at juno.com Tue Feb 20 14:43:23 2001 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:43:23 -0600 Subject: Stars. Message-ID: It has been shared that IOM "star" = bikax?e, from which one could derive a meaning of "Sun Crow" from the words: bi (celestial body; sun/ moon) & kax?e (crow). And at the same time, it has been mentioned that the oral literature speaks of the Twin Holy Boys and their father, merging in with the Sun, Moon & North Star, respectively. The statement that the stars were campfires of the dead is new to me, not ever hearing elderly informants say that, nor mention of it in the published accounts, traditional stories, or ethnology studies. And then, I could have missed something, so would need a resource reference on it. However, no one has mentioned here the Clan moieties for the IOM/ Winn, Dhegihas which indicate that the origins of the Clans were half from the Sky People (moiety), and half from the Earth People (moiety). I am not familiar with the Dhegiha Clan stories, but the IOM/WI stories, say the ancestors came to earth in the form of animals/ birds, changing into human beings. Perhaps, the Lakota "wicha-" (animate plural) is a carry over from a more archaic era with the L/D/Nakotas were still affiliated with a Clan system, that had the above features. I do recall that the Eastern Dakota (Santee), were the only group to maintain even a shorten version of the Twin Boys story, which is well known even in the Northern Plains by (Hidatsa/ Mandan) and the Algonquian neighbors. Jimm On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 12:50:28 -0600 RLR writes: > > In Lakota the word for 'star' is wichah^pi . > > Normally the prefix wicha- refers to animate plurals. Does anyone > > > know why it turns up in the word for star? > > Hard to say. I'd guess either by accident or, perhaps, by > folk-etymology. The form in several related languages is nasalized: > > Omaha-Ponca > mikka'?e > Kansa > mikka'k?e > Osage > mihka'k?e > Quapaw > mikka'x?e > > These languages have no obvious reflex of a form that would underlie > > wicha "Man/person". However the folk etymology could have gone > either > way, i.e., the wicha in Dakotan may represent folk etymology > connecting > 'man' with 'star' (as in several traditional stories). Or the mi- of > > Dhegiha dialects may represent a fancied connection with mi- 'sun'. > I > resist connecting Dhegiha with mikka/mihka 'raccoon'. The m/w > *should > not* be corresponding here without a nasal vowel in the term, so > there > is certainly some sort of analogical change going on. > > The suffix is different in the two subgroups also. It appears as > though > -?e is a suffix in Dhegiha and the same -pi suffix we find so well > represented in Dakotan nouns turns up there. So the glottalized > fricative found originally in Dhegiha is historically most likely a > composite with a morpheme boundary in the middle. Then the result > underwent the usual Dhegiha change: *x? > k? > ? with Kansa/Osage > retaining the middle form and Omaha-Ponca showing the last stage. > There > are plenty of other examples of this change. > > In the Comparative Dictionary files 'star' is very peculiar overall > and > hard to reconstruct. I don't have all the forms available at the > moment, > but I'll get them if anyone is interested. My recollection is that > there > are at least two quite distinct etyma reconstructible. But there > are > problems with both. I don't think that any of them can be > reconstructed > with 'man' as a component though. > > Bob > > Is it from some other > > earlier use or some other morph. Does the wicha- occur in any > > other Siouan reflexes for 'star'. It is tempting to think of it > as having > > something to do with spirits of the dead, but I'm sure that's far- > > fetched. > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Feb 20 15:04:13 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:04:13 -0700 Subject: Stars, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Richard L. Dieterle wrote: > Here is what I have in WI on star, sun, moon: ... > wiragos^ke, pl. wiragos^kera star [Gatschet] > wirakos^kera star, stars ("sun-suspended") [Dorsey] > wiragus^kera (we-dah-goose-ka-dah) stars [Th. George] > Wiragos^ge HaNke Dirani the North Star (Polaris), "the Star > that does not Move." (cf. Crow, Ihaxaz^ise, > "the Star that does not Move.") > Wiragos^ge XedenaNgere The Large Star, Morning Star > Wiragos^gew'iNga Star Woman, a personal name in the Bird Clan ... > wiragos^ke ho-ikada shooting star [Gatschet] > wirakos^keras^ibare a meteor [Dorsey] ... The reading wiiraguNs^ge, with nasal uN is from Miner. It's interesting to notice that earlier versions all have o or u. not uN. Marino (Radin) also has -gos-. This also tends to argue against the 'make' reading in *-hkax-, since it eliminates the any parallelism with -guNs-. > Dorsey's analysis of wirakos^kera as "sun-suspended" is interesting. > The nearest thing to kos^ke that I can find (other than skunk words) is > gus, "rope." I had rejected the XIXth century translations of "sun" for > wi, and had replaced them by "orb." However, I can find no instance of > a word like this for a non-luminous orb (like a ball), so I will adopt > "luminary" after Koontz. I borrowed this usage from someone! From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Feb 20 15:29:30 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:29:30 -0700 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN In-Reply-To: <20010220032651.3586.qmail@web120.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Constantine Xmelnitski wrote: > As is known, Lakhota dialect of Dakotan has two > variations of aspirated stops : weak (h-like), and > strong (x-like). ... In Dhegiha Osage has velar aspiration with p, t and k, i.e., not with c (ts), which occurs instead of t before i, e, u. If velar aspiration occurs before i, e and, I think, u, i.e., after p and k, but not t, the velar is x palatalized to s^. So, ps^e, che, ks^e, ps^i, chi, ks^i, but aNpxaN, petxaN, (a)kxa. Of course, the bulk of Dakotan aspirates and stop-stop cluster correspond to tense stops in Dhegiha, and these manifest in Osage as preaspirates, which lack velarization. Only a small percentage of Dakotan aspirates correspond to (the few) aspirates in Dhegiha languages. In fact Dhegiha th generally matches h in Dakotan (cf. pehaN for petxaN above). MaNtho 'grizzly' has th in both. I believe Kaw is generally like Osage in having velar aspiration (except for having c^ affrication instead of c affrication), but Omaha-Ponca and Quapaw have laryngeal aspiration. I gather that velar aspiration also occurs in some other families, e.g., Athabascan, but I have never tracked down the details. Apart from this, in Indo-European, compare High German pf, ts, kx as developments of ph, th, kh. You might call this "homorganic" aspiration. I have also seen a discussion of ancient Greek corrspondence sets with ps, ts, ks corresponding to aspirated ph, th, kh elsewhere in ancient Greek, suggesting a sort of "sibilant" aspiration. From rwd0002 at unt.edu Tue Feb 20 15:46:41 2001 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:46:41 -0600 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Regarding velar aspiration in Siouan. As John points out it is indeed common in Athabaskan. In Southern Athabaskan or Apachean, the aspirated t's in front of back vowels are more or less velar. Hoijer wrote that Western Apache, (one of the Apachean languages) had no velar aspiration, but his field notes on this language show that it occurs even there, even though not as consistently as in Navajo or Chiricahua. Another place where this phenomenon occurs: the Northwest Mandarin Chinese dialect of Qinghai has strong velar aspiration of aspirated stops. Greetings, Willem J. de Reuse Department of English University of North Texas From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Tue Feb 20 20:45:17 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:45:17 -0600 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN Message-ID: > I believe Kaw is generally like Osage in having velar aspiration (except for having c^ > affrication instead of c affrication), but Omaha-Ponca and Quapaw have laryngeal aspiration. No, Kaw just has the [h] aspiration, also Quapaw. Osage stands alone in Dhegiha in having [x] aspiration at all. [x] aspiration appears to be recorded for Biloxi and Ofo however (and possibly Tutelo in the Dorsey transcriptions). I don't think that Dakotan [x] and [h] aspiration have distinct historical sources, but the set of correspondences that we reconstruct as *ph, *th, *kh in a few words might have involved C[x] clusters. But this would only be in a few words like 'grizzly'. Most Dakotan th go back to what we reconstruct as *ht. There are fossilized morphophonemic rules in Dakotan that show h-C > Ch. bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 21 07:45:16 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:45:16 -0700 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN In-Reply-To: <3A92D75D.2030706@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, RLR wrote: > No, Kaw just has the [h] aspiration, also Quapaw. Osage stands alone in > Dhegiha in having [x] aspiration at all. [x] aspiration appears to be > recorded for Biloxi and Ofo however (and possibly Tutelo in the Dorsey > transcriptions). I don't think that Dakotan [x] and [h] aspiration have > distinct historical sources, ... Nor I. > but the set of correspondences that we reconstruct as *ph, *th, *kh in a > few words ... In other words the postaspirates or aspirates proper that show up as aspirates in Dhegiha, instead of tense stops (hC or CC, depending on the dialect) (and merge with the unaspirated series in IO and Wi). Example PMV Teton Omaha IO Wi 'grizzly' *maNtho maNtho maNc^hu maNtho maNc^o (or *maNtxo ?) 'fold' *pethaN pehaN bethaN -wedaN weejaN 'arrive here' *thi hi thi ji jii 'house' *hti thi tti c^hi c^ii 'ruminant' *hta tha tta tha c^aa > might have involved C[x] clusters. But this would only be in a > few words like 'grizzly'. About the only case of *th (as opposed to *ht) that appears as th in Dakotan instead of h. > Most Dakotan th go back to what we reconstruct as *ht. There are > fossilized morphophonemic rules in Dakotan that show h-C > Ch. Bob here refers to his discovery that the -kha and -kka derivational suffixes in Dakotan and Dhegiha (in OP form), respectively, derive from old h-final roots plus the -ka suffix. JEK From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 21 18:42:52 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:42:52 -0600 Subject: [Fwd: poison ivy] Message-ID: From the SSILA Newsletter: -------- Original Message -------- I am writing a popular article on poison ivy and poison oak and I would like to provide a list of a few Native American names for these plants. I need to know the words and what the phrase or word means. Any assis- tance readers of the SSILA Bulletin can give would be greatly appreciated. --Spencer Tomb Kansas State University (astomb at ksu.edu) In the interests of fostering good relations between the KU Jayhawks and the Purple Pussies of Kansas Straight University, I checked out 'poison ivy' in the several Siouan language dictionaries in my computer. Those of you reading this on the Siouan Listserv might be willing to contribute the relevant terms to his study. He is not a list member, so using his email address, above, will get the info to him. Kansa, sometimes called Kaw, the Siouan language formerly spoken along the Kansas River in eastern KS, used the compound "mahin-ppizhi" for poison ivy, where "mahin" is the term normally used for grass or weeds and "ppizhi" is the verb 'to be bad'. This is from my field notes on the language. Winnebago, a Siouan language originally spoken in E. central Wisconsin, now spoken in central Wisc. and in NE Nebraska, uses the term "xa~a~win-shishik" where the letter "x" is a gutteral fricative like German "ch" and the tildes (~) should be written on top of the preceding "a" vowels to indicate nasalization. "Xa~a~win" is also 'grass' and "shik" is 'to be bad'. So the compound has essentially the same meaning as the Kaw one did, but the words used are different. The initial syllable of shik 'to be bad' has been reduplicated in 'poison ivy' for semantic effect. This term is taken from the "Winnebago Field Lexicon" by Kenneth Miner, MS, 1984. Good luck with other terms. I have no separate terms for poison oak/sumac -- just ivy. Bob Rankin Professor of Linguistics University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045-2140 From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 21 19:25:16 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:25:16 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: poison ivy] In-Reply-To: <3A940C2C.5020500@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, RLR wrote: > From the SSILA Newsletter: > -------- Original Message -------- > I am writing a popular article on poison ivy and poison oak and I would > like to provide a list of a few Native American names for these plants. > I need to know the words and what the phrase or word means. Any assis- > tance readers of the SSILA Bulletin can give would be greatly appreciated. > > --Spencer Tomb > Kansas State University > (astomb at ksu.edu) ... > Good luck with other terms. I have no separate terms for poison > oak/sumac -- just ivy. It may be worth pointing out that there is no reason to expect terms in a given language, English or Siouan, to map one-for-one to Linnaean species, even when all the species in question occur locally. Modern field guide usage tends to suggest that there is one (or sometimes more) popular term in each language for each Linnaean species, but this is an artificial assumption of Linnaean taxonomic principles in non-Linnaean systems. John Koontz From mosind at yahoo.com Wed Feb 21 19:28:46 2001 From: mosind at yahoo.com (Constantine Xmelnitski) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:28:46 -0800 Subject: [Fwd: poison ivy] Message-ID: Here's what Buechel's Lakota-English dictionary search on "ivy" yields: wikhos^ka thaphez^uta, n. The small western poison ivy. Rhus rydbergii.The sumac family. When touched it causes irritations, hence the name. It is not a medicine plant. Cf. wikhos^ka. wikhos^ka, n. A venereal disease of women. cha~iyuwi iyecheca, n. The Virginia creeper, the woodbine, the false grape, the American ivy or the five-leaved ivy. The vine family. The roots are bad. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 21 20:34:17 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:34:17 -0600 Subject: [Fwd: poison ivy] Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: >> Good luck with other terms. I have no separate terms for poison >> oak/sumac -- just ivy. > > It may be worth pointing out that there is no reason to expect terms in a > given language, English or Siouan, to map one-for-one to Linnaean species, This is true, but at least we wouldn't expect multiple overlaps with harmless species. I noted that in at least one language there was an interjection listed with the notation approximately "as when someone notices that he has gotten poison ivy." Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 21 21:45:09 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:45:09 -0700 Subject: More on Winnebago Moon (was Re: [Fwd: poison ivy]) In-Reply-To: <20010221192846.20892.qmail@web123.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Constantine Xmelnitski wrote: > Here's what Buechel's Lakota-English dictionary search > on "ivy" yields: > wikhos^ka thaphez^uta, n. The small western poison > ivy. Rhus rydbergii.The sumac family. When touched it > causes irritations, hence the name. It is not a > medicine plant. Cf. wikhos^ka. > wikhos^ka, n. A venereal disease of women. Remember Winnebago wiira guNs^ge, earlier wiira gos^ge, 'moon'? And remember that in some cases aspirated stops in Dakotan or Dhegiha correspond to voiced stops in Winnebago? Dakotan khos^ka could regularly match Wi gos^ge. Perhaps wiira gos^ge could be interpreted 'pocked or blistered luminary'? Note that this meaning is perhaps implied for Dakotan khos^ka, but I'm not positive of that. I also don't know if such a form as gos^ka is attested in this sense in Winnebago, or if there is a widespread set of similar or calqued forms for venereal diseases. A cognate-like pairing could exist in Dakotan and Winnebago either by inheritence, in which case the correspondence is potentially regular, or by borrowing, in which case the adaptation might have gone in either direction. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 21 22:06:58 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:06:58 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: poison ivy] In-Reply-To: <3A942649.1000308@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, RLR wrote: > > It may be worth pointing out that there is no reason to expect terms in a > > given language, English or Siouan, to map one-for-one to Linnaean species, > > This is true, but at least we wouldn't expect multiple overlaps with > harmless species. I wouldn't expect so. We might expect several of the poisonous species to go under a single name, however, or to be regarded as subkinds of a single higher kind, perhaps including stinging nettles, etc. > I noted that in at least one language there was an interjection listed > with the notation approximately "as when someone notices that he has > gotten poison ivy." I know one in English, but it's homophonous with my term for excrement. JEK From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 21 23:18:03 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:18:03 -0600 Subject: [Fwd: poison ivy] Message-ID: Just Dakotan "axaNxaN!" in Buechel. :-) Bob > > I noted that in at least one language there was an interjection listed > > with the notation approximately "as when someone notices that he has > > gotten poison ivy." From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 21 23:33:47 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:33:47 -0600 Subject: [Fwd: poison ivy] Message-ID: > Here's what Buechel's Lakota-English dictionary search > on "ivy" yields: > wikhos^ka thaphez^uta, n. The small western poison > ivy. Rhus rydbergii.The sumac family. When touched it > causes irritations, hence the name. It is not a > medicine plant. Cf. wikhos^ka. > wikhos^ka, n. A venereal disease of women. > > cha~iyuwi iyecheca, n. The Virginia creeper, the > woodbine, the false grape, the American > ivy or the five-leaved ivy. The vine family. The roots > are bad. Symbols s^ and z^ are used for the English sounds "sh" and "zh" here. I did a computer search of Buechel for wikhoshka, ikhoshka and just khoshka. It turned up a disease of horses' hooves and also entries: khoshka' 'be affected by veneral disease' khoshkalaka 'young man' wikhoshkalaka 'young woman' While I have to admit that John's discussion of Winnebago 'moon' doesn't yet convince me that the moon was described as blistered or pockmarked (something I can only see with a telescope), the Dakotan "wikhoshkalaka" 'young woman' might have something to do with the Winnebago term and also the moon's being commonly thought of in Siouan-speaking cultures as feminine or womanly. But returning to poison ivy, the Dakotan form, kindly provided by Connie Xmelnitsky, can apparently be analyzed as: wi-khos^ka tha-phez^uta fem-VD its-plant My next question would relate to what sorts of venereal infections were extant in North America before contact. But whatever they were, the Lakota speakers are comparing them to the poison ivy rash/blistering. Bob From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Feb 22 02:03:57 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:03:57 -0600 Subject: Nebraska Message-ID: Can anyone tell me exactly what Omaha bdhaska means as used in the name of the Platte? Does it mean 'flat' in the sense 'spreading out'? Can it mean 'shallow' in any of the Siouan languages? (Of course, a widely spreading river will generally be shallow.) Thanks for any help. Alan From jggoodtracks at juno.com Thu Feb 22 03:33:13 2001 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:33:13 -0600 Subject: [Fwd: poison ivy] Message-ID: Melvin GIlmore, (his plant book), has for Poison Oak/ Ivy: Hthiwathehi (O/P), "plant that makes sore". jgt On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:28:46 -0800 (PST) Constantine Xmelnitski writes: > Here's what Buechel's Lakota-English dictionary search > on "ivy" yields: > wikhos^ka thaphez^uta, n. The small western poison > ivy. Rhus rydbergii.The sumac family. When touched it > causes irritations, hence the name. It is not a > medicine plant. Cf. wikhos^ka. > wikhos^ka, n. A venereal disease of women. > > cha~iyuwi iyecheca, n. The Virginia creeper, the > woodbine, the false grape, the American > ivy or the five-leaved ivy. The vine family. The roots > are bad. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From ioway at earthlink.net Thu Feb 22 04:04:29 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:04:29 -0700 Subject: Nebraska Message-ID: "Alan H. Hartley" wrote: > Can anyone tell me exactly what Omaha bdhaska means as used in the name > of the Platte? Does it mean 'flat' in the sense 'spreading out'? Can it > mean 'shallow' in any of the Siouan languages? (Of course, a widely > spreading river will generally be shallow.) > > Thanks for any help. > > Alan IO Nyibrashke/Nyibrathge/Nyibraxge = "nyi" water + "brathge (etc)" to be flat Platte is just German for "flat" as well -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Feb 22 05:01:27 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:01:27 -0700 Subject: Nebraska In-Reply-To: <3A94738D.3999A5F@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > Can anyone tell me exactly what Omaha bdhaska means as used in the name > of the Platte? Does it mean 'flat' in the sense 'spreading out'? Can it > mean 'shallow' in any of the Siouan languages? (Of course, a widely > spreading river will generally be shallow.) Or it could be - in fact I think it may be - Ioway-Otoe braske. It depends on what -ka represents in something like ne-bras-ka. Ne is clearly niN, which tends to suggest ka is ke. It is, of course, very difficult to tell. In any event, this is always translated 'flat' in the sources. It might be difficult to tell this from 'shallow' or 'spreading out', but the latter is supposed to be the sense of ubdhadha in Niobrara. Mark Swetland is perhaps in the best position at present to find out what other readings might be possible, or what other things could be bdhaska. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Feb 22 05:04:10 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:04:10 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: poison ivy] In-Reply-To: <20010221.215144.-443551.0.jggoodtracks@juno.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Jimm G GoodTracks wrote: > Melvin GIlmore, (his plant book), has for Poison Oak/ Ivy: > Hthiwathehi (O/P), "plant that makes sore". > jgt I think this would be xdhi= wadhe hi exudations it causes them plant JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Feb 22 05:07:58 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:07:58 -0700 Subject: Nebraska In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Koontz John E wrote: > Or it could be - in fact I think it may be - Ioway-Otoe braske. It > depends on what -ka represents in something like ne-bras-ka. Ne is > clearly niN, which tends to suggest ka is ke. It is, of course, very > difficult to tell. I should also say that, if IO, probably specifically Otoe, from the location of the Otoe village at its mouth, this would have to be in a very conservative form, e.g., with -s- where most recent speakers would have or (preaspiration of k). Also, the (predictable) palatalization of n before i, iN, e is not indicated, which may also be conservative, or simply a simplification. JEK From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Feb 22 12:25:06 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:25:06 GMT Subject: [Fwd: poison ivy] In-Reply-To: <20010221.215144.-443551.0.jggoodtracks@juno.com> Message-ID: With regard to the name cha~iyuwi iyecheca, n. The Virginia creeper, the > woodbine, the false grape, the American > ivy or the five-leaved ivy. The vine family. The roots > are bad. Does any native speaker out there know if this really is a Lakota 'name' for the plant. The literal translation of the name is 'it is like a vine or twisting plant' ie it looks like an 'explanation' rather than a name. Certain entries like this in Buechel I did not put in my English Lakota dictionary (ie I didn't put an entry for Virginia creeper), because of a suspicion that they were not really 'names' as such. I hope in a sense that I was wrong, because the more words Lakota has, the happier I will be. Bruce Date sent: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:33:13 -0600 Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: Jimm G GoodTracks To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: [Fwd: poison ivy] Melvin GIlmore, (his plant book), has for Poison Oak/ Ivy: Hthiwathehi (O/P), "plant that makes sore". jgt On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:28:46 -0800 (PST) Constantine Xmelnitski writes: > Here's what Buechel's Lakota-English dictionary search > on "ivy" yields: > wikhos^ka thaphez^uta, n. The small western poison > ivy. Rhus rydbergii.The sumac family. When touched it > causes irritations, hence the name. It is not a > medicine plant. Cf. wikhos^ka. > wikhos^ka, n. A venereal disease of women. > > cha~iyuwi iyecheca, n. The Virginia creeper, the > woodbine, the false grape, the American > ivy or the five-leaved ivy. The vine family. The roots > are bad. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Thu Feb 22 13:51:19 2001 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:51:19 -0600 Subject: Nebraska Message-ID: 22 Feb 2001 Aloha All: I've been listening in on the various conversations about poison ivy, aspiration, and stellar objects. Quite interesting. I will ask my Omaha Language class instructors about the Nebraska term. Generally I have heard the elders gloss it as "flat", but some would swing out the hand as though to simulate something spread out, too. No one specifically suggested "shallow". The Stabler lexicon listed shallow as "xe'be" I will check the Dorsey lexicon to see what he offers for xe'be. Stabler:lumber, board, floor, and tile are all glossed as "zhoNbthaska", i.e., flat wood (or could we say "to lie flat"?) Stabler: blackboard (classroom chalkboard) as "zhoNbthaska sabe" i.e., flat black wood (or could we say "to lie flat black"?) uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Lecturer Anthropology/Ethnic Studies c/o Department of Anthropology-Geography University of Nebraska Bessey Hall 132 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 Office 402-472-3455 Dept. 402-472-2411 FAX 402-472-9642 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu -----Original Message----- From: Koontz John E To: Siouan Date: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 10:49 PM Subject: Re: Nebraska >On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > >> Can anyone tell me exactly what Omaha bdhaska means as used in the name >> of the Platte? Does it mean 'flat' in the sense 'spreading out'? Can it >> mean 'shallow' in any of the Siouan languages? (Of course, a widely >> spreading river will generally be shallow.) > >Or it could be - in fact I think it may be - Ioway-Otoe braske. It >depends on what -ka represents in something like ne-bras-ka. Ne is >clearly niN, which tends to suggest ka is ke. It is, of course, very >difficult to tell. > >In any event, this is always translated 'flat' in the sources. It might >be difficult to tell this from 'shallow' or 'spreading out', but the >latter is supposed to be the sense of ubdhadha in Niobrara. > >Mark Swetland is perhaps in the best position at present to find out what >other readings might be possible, or what other things could be bdhaska. > >JEK > From ioway at earthlink.net Thu Feb 22 14:36:55 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:36:55 -0700 Subject: Nebraska Message-ID: Ok.. I am trying to get a better handle of the s/th/hk trasnformation/shift (in linguistics which term is used to describe the change in a phoneme over time rather then in a particular linguistic setting) in IOM. You say "this would have to be in a very conservative form, e.g., with -s- where most recent speakers would have or (preaspiration of k)" To make sure I understand this right, the oldest descriptions in historic word lists imply a "s" rather than a "th" and now you also see it as "x" (I am assuming in this case it is not a true "x" but as you say a preaspiration of "k"). Why do you think this change occurred and when? And what is the standard practice in word lists when wanting to show such changes and recognizing the variations in the various family dialects. My Grandma spoke only a little IO from her parents, and my Uncle John learned some from them as well and so I have been able to collect a short list of words and expressions from that source as well. For example they were given "Hinuu" as meaning "I'm afraid." One strange variation in pronunciation was that "baxoje" was pronounced "paxoji"/"paxoci"/"pakoci" in our family dialect from my Grandmother's Mother's side. Lance Koontz John E wrote: > On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Koontz John E wrote: > > Or it could be - in fact I think it may be - Ioway-Otoe braske. It > > depends on what -ka represents in something like ne-bras-ka. Ne is > > clearly niN, which tends to suggest ka is ke. It is, of course, very > > difficult to tell. > > I should also say that, if IO, probably specifically Otoe, from the > location of the Otoe village at its mouth, this would have to be in a very > conservative form, e.g., with -s- where most recent speakers would have > or (preaspiration of k). Also, the (predictable) > palatalization of n before i, iN, e is not indicated, which may also be > conservative, or simply a simplification. > > JEK -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Feb 22 14:54:26 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:54:26 -0600 Subject: Nebraska Message-ID: Thanks to everyone for the help. So... IO n(y)iN-braske 'flat river' ' ' ' ' ' ' Eng. Nebraska Fr. Platte ' ' Eng. Platte Alan P.S. Is someone writing a Siouan etymological (or at least comparative) dictionary, and when will it be published? Something has to come of all this knowledge floating around! From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Feb 22 15:37:56 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:37:56 -0700 Subject: Nebraska In-Reply-To: <3A952822.D2E4EB11@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > Thanks to everyone for the help. So... > > IO n(y)iN-braske 'flat river' > ' ' > ' ' > ' ' > Eng. Nebraska Fr. Platte > ' > ' > Eng. Platte It's probably impossible to completely eliminate the Omaha-Ponca, Kaw, Osage, etc., forms from consideration, as they are all pretty similar. They might be cognates, though they're probably just calques among languages with closely cognate vocabulary. Note, however, that Dorsey says the river is called Ni TtaNga 'Big Water' in Ponca usage. More northerly languages seem to use variations on 'Shell River'. Pawnee has Kickatus (c = ts) also water + flat or Flat Water. The pattern of referring to large streams as 'waters' is certainly common in Mississippi Valley Siouan languages and seems to occur in Pawnee (Caddoan) as well. The Siouan languages do have various words for 'stream' applied to smaller streams, cf. OP wac^his^ka ~ wathis^ka, and, in fact, the Platte is rated a watpa(daN) ~ wakpa(la) in Dakotan. It might be interesting to look at comparative hydronymy in the area, but I'm not sure if the appropriate resources exist. > P.S. Is someone writing a Siouan etymological (or at least comparative) > dictionary, and when will it be published? Something has to come of all > this knowledge floating around! A comparative dictionary is in the works (Contacts David Rood, Robert Rankin, Richard Carter, Wesley Jones). JEK From daynal at nsula.edu Thu Feb 22 18:22:15 2001 From: daynal at nsula.edu (Dayna Bowker Lee) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:22:15 -0800 Subject: [Fwd: poison ivy] Message-ID: I'm a lurker on your list - not a linguist, just an anthropologist interested in language use - so forgive me if the format is incorrect on the following words. In Caddo: poison ivy = dan?nin? cloud = kah-cha-chí-ah sky = kah-cha-tuh Caddo linguists out there can discuss the etymology. I just thought I'd throw the words out for consideration. Dayna Lee From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Feb 22 16:22:00 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 09:22:00 -0700 Subject: Nebraska In-Reply-To: <3A952406.CC81E0A1@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > Ok.. I am trying to get a better handle of the s/th/hk trasnformation/shift > (in linguistics which term is used to describe the change in a phoneme over > time rather then in a particular linguistic setting) in IOM. Usually they're called shifts or changes or developments. Incidentally, the importance of stating that the IO in the word Nebraska is conservative is that if one works on a basis of modern IO pronunciation one has to eliminate IO as a source, since Nebraska doesn't show --t^ke or -hke or, less significantly, nyi. Knowing that earlier speakers could have used -ske or even ni makes it possible to see IO as a source here. > You say "this would have to be in a very conservative form, e.g., with > -s- where most recent speakers would have or (preaspiration > of k)" > > To make sure I understand this right, the oldest descriptions in historic > word lists imply a "s" rather than a "th" and now you also see it as "x" (I > am assuming in this case it is not a true "x" but as you say a preaspiration > of "k"). In this case the "conservative" or oldest state is primarily indicated by the situation in IO's closest relatives, e.g., Winnebago, the Dhegiha dialects, and the Dakotan dialects. Mandan might be the next closest after that and it is unique in somehow having managed to reverse s and s^. However, even though IO is particularly poorly - infrequently and not very thoroughly - recorded, it is clear that in early times it did have s/s^/x (etc.) more or less in synchrony with the other languages. As the s/s^/x set of sounds participate in a pattern of sound symbolic alternations, sometimes one language has s or s^ or x instead of another of these sounds anyway. I think the usual characterization of the alternations (from Dakotan) is s = diminutive, s^ = regular, x = augmentative. However, as all of the sounds seems to occur as the basic sound in some word or another perhaps it's safer to say that shifting the sound in a word one direction or another could make the sense of the word relatively more augmented or diminuated. In any event, s is regular in a set like *ska 'white' or *sap(e) 'black, or s^ in *s^uNk(e) 'dog', x in *xaNt(e) 'grass' and so on, and IO must have inherited such an arrangement originally, and also attests something like it, especially in earlier recordings. However, in some fairly early recordings and especially in modern recordings we find s shifted to , and s shifted to s^ (). Also, we find sk shifted to hk, not really xk. Linguists can distinguish several different s and s^ pronunciations in various languages of the world, e.g., Californian languages often distinguish two s's, but I don't think even modern Siouanists tend to comment on which are in use in particular Siouan languages, and the historical materials don't permit us to determine things like this either. > Why do you think this change occurred and when? The usual explanations for sound changes of this sort revolve around unconscious individual human efforts to express group solidarity by adopting (progressively exagerating) certain perceived markers of group identity, in this case pronunciation norms. A fairly common popular explanation of this is "immitation of the speech of some prestigious individual," though this is probably actually seldom the case. In fact, members of a group are all immitating each other in ways that set them apart from outsiders. In some cases there might be a pattern of trying to avoid a pronunciation characteristic of an out group. The shift in IO fricatives seems to have been ongoing since at least the 1700s. I should add, of course, that there is nothing deficient or corrupt about the more modern pronunciations. One might argue that from an IO point of view they would be probably "better" or more characteristically and satisfyingly IO, at least in more recent time. > And what is the standard practice in word lists when wanting to show > such changes and recognizing the variations in the various family > dialects. Depending on the situation people may suppress the differences in favor of some "standard" or "prestige" norm (not necessarily the conservative variant), or go into great detail listing the variants, ideally (in dictionary contexts) listing the sources for the variants (ideally a person, place and time). > My Grandma spoke only a little IO from her parents, and my Uncle John > learned some from them as well and so I have been able to collect a > short list of words and expressions from that source as well. For > example they were given "Hinuu" as meaning "I'm afraid." One strange > variation in pronunciation was that "baxoje" was pronounced > "paxoji"/"paxoci"/"pakoci" in our family dialect from my Grandmother's > Mother's side. The unaspirated series of stops is often voiced in IO (as in some other Siouan languages) and there's tendency among linguists recently to write bdj^g for the unaspirated stops to reflect this. Still, for some speakers (probnably originally certain localities) lack of aspiration would not be supplemented by voicing, so the sound would be ptc^k. This would still be distinct from the aspirates ph/th/c^k/kh. To English ears the difference between, say, p and ph is a hard one to hear, but it's real enough in most Siouan languages. Far more real than b vs. p. Linguists (mainly Bob Rankin, though I follow his lead) recently have been trying to encourage writing the aspirates in IO as ph, etc., in IO citations in spite of having gone over to writing the inaspirates as b, etc. There used to be a tendency to write either p vs. ph or b vs. p, allowing p in the second case to indicate the aspirate. Just writing p seems simpler, but it is fraught with pitfalls. Mainly it is potentially confusing both to non-Siouanists and to speakers of the language interested in writing it. The problem is that since both b and p occur as pronunciations of "unaspirated p," both b and p occur indifferently in the sources as ways of writing this sound, while p and ph occur indifferently as ways of writing ph. This leads to a constant state of uncertainty as to whether a given word in IO has an aspirated stop or not. In fact, it leads to uncertainty as to whether IO even has aspiration, which it does. JEK From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Thu Feb 22 16:37:03 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:37:03 -0600 Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: poison ivy]] Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Jimm G GoodTracks wrote: > Melvin GIlmore, (his plant book), has for Poison Oak/ Ivy: > Hthiwathehi (Omaha/Ponca), "plant that makes sore". > jgt I think this would be xdhi= wadhe hi exudations it causes them plant ---------------------- Clearly fits the meaning of the Kaw cognate "xli", which means 'running sore(s)'. And I think I should clarify my last message of yesterday regarding the analysis of Lakota "wikhoshka". khoshka' have a venereal infection khoshka'laka young man wikho'shkalaka young woman The analysis I sent yesterday would be the folk analysis. wi-kho'shka (+its plant/weed) fem-infection While it's possible that the "wi-" here is the feminine morpheme (as in Wi-nona), the actual morphology here was probably: wa + i + kho'shka ABS INS infected where ABS is the noun-forming "absolutive" prefix in Siouan, INS is the instrumental "i" prefix followed by the intransitive verb stem. In reality, then, the form means 'what-infects its plant', a fairly typical Siouan grammatical construction. And re Bruce's note on descriptive natural history terminology: After Frank Siebert published his paper on Algonquian animal/plant names in an attempt to isolate the proto-Algonquian homeland, I set about searching for similar terms/evidence in Siouan. While it's true that the oldest, most widespread animal terms seem to be "names" (i.e., unanalyzable), a huge number of natural history terms that Siouan speakers clearly knew about do seem to be transparently descriptive. What this suggested to me was that perhaps Siouan speakers had, in relatively recent times, migrated from one climatic/floral/faunal zone into a new one which had many different trees, plants and animals. Thus the (more recent) descriptive terminology. Other interpretations are probably possible. And some languages just seem to "like" descriptive terms. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Koontz John E Subject: Re: [Fwd: poison ivy] Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:04:10 -0700 (MST) Size: 1518 URL: From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Thu Feb 22 16:55:31 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:55:31 -0600 Subject: Nebraska Message-ID: > > Ok.. I am trying to get a better handle of the s/th/hk transformation/shift > ... it is clear that in early times it did have s/s^/x > (etc.) more or less in synchrony with the other languages. Ted Grimm did a talk on this about 3 years ago at the Siouan Conference. He did find early transcriptions with "s" in place of "theta" (th). I don't remember his dates/sources off the top of my head. Maybe he is reading the list...? > The usual explanations for sound changes of this sort revolve around > unconscious individual human efforts to express group solidarity by > adopting (progressively exagerating) certain perceived markers of > group identity, in this case pronunciation norms. Labov (his 1994 book) has finally admitted that "imitation" in any real sense is only a characteristic of a relatively few sound changes and that most (as we've known since the 1880's) are blind, fortuitous and no respecters of meaning. No sound change begins for any sort of sociolinguistic reason. All have to do with the shape and movements of the human articulatory and perceptual apparatus (the mouth, tongue, teeth, larynx, etc.) AFTER the change has already taken place, however, it can be diffused from person to person, group to group via immitation. This is what linguists have traditionally called "dialect borrowing". And as John points out, at that point it can involve the notion of "prestige" (tho that doesn't necessarily refer to class distinctions). My lecture for the day. ;-) Bob From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Feb 22 17:07:23 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:07:23 GMT Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: poison ivy]] In-Reply-To: <3A95402F.13F092A3@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: re Bob's reply to my note. Yes I can understand descriptive names, things like for instance 'bindweed' kimimila thawanah^ca (butterfly flower) which I suppose is because it looks like a butterfly or butterflies like it and would also think of as a 'name' or 'maple' chanhasaN (light bark tree) which describe the plant in terms of something else, but a plant name meaning 'it resembles another plant' seems somehow uny such examples occur in other languages. Bruce PS in the Middle East some of the new plants have the designation 'European' they call 'potatoes' apples of the erath (Turkish yer elmasi, Persian sib zamini) and in Persian tomatoe is 'European (Frankish) plum (goje farangi), starwberry is 'European mulberry' (tut farangi). Okra or egg plant among Arabian bedouins takes the persian Badhenjan and reanalyzes it as Beedh Jann (Jinn egg). Date sent: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:37:03 -0600 Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: RLR To: astomb at ksu.edu, Siouan list Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: poison ivy]] And re Bruce's note on descriptive natural history terminology: After Frank Siebert published his paper on Algonquian animal/plant names in an attempt to isolate the proto-Algonquian homeland, I set about searching for similar terms/evidence in Siouan. While it's true that the oldest, most widespread animal terms seem to be "names" (i.e., unanalyzable), a huge number of natural history terms that Siouan speakers clearly knew about do seem to be transparently descriptive. What this suggested to me was that perhaps Siouan speakers had, in relatively recent times, migrated from one climatic/floral/faunal zone into a new one which had many different trees, plants and animals. Thus the (more recent) descriptive terminology. Other interpretations are probably possible. And some languages just seem to "like" descriptive terms. Bob Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Thu Feb 22 18:21:45 2001 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:21:45 -0600 Subject: more "flat" versus "shallow" Message-ID: 22 Feb 2001 Aloha all: Looking at the Fletcher and La Flesche collection of Omaha names for streams and rivers: Ni'xebe te.....Shallow Water.....Bayer Creek, Iowa 1911:92 versus Ni btha'cka ke....Flat River....Platte river 1911:90 Note: c = c-cedilla with the sound of s uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Lecturer Anthropology/Ethnic Studies c/o Department of Anthropology-Geography University of Nebraska Bessey Hall 132 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 Office 402-472-3455 Dept. 402-472-2411 FAX 402-472-9642 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Feb 22 18:27:50 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:27:50 GMT Subject: Lakota names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: re Bob's point about Lakota names and their often descriptive nature, that is an interesting point about them having moved into a new area with different flora and fauna. I'm sure that is much like the other case of having to deal with new objects which a foreign group have brought in, like the Lakota use of maza 'iron' or wakhaN 'mysterious' as a component of their names for many was^icu items. I sometimes wonder about a parallel point with regard to Lakota which is that so many of their words are morphologically analyzable into components which still have a meaning and can be thought to contribute to the new item. Things like chegnake 'loin cloth' (che 'loins', gnaka 'put'), chuwignaka 'woman's dress' (che ditto ?, wi 'fem?, gnaka 'put'), chaNksa 'club' (chaN 'wood', ksa 'break'), hanpos^pu 'doll' . One would think that clothes, clubs and dolls would be old in the culture yet they have morphologically analyzable names. It may just be that as Bob says, some languages do it that way.Maybe these have replaced earlier monomorphemic elements. Maybe they were originally picturesque epithets, but then became the main words. Do these correspond to similar things in other Siouan languages? This is a thing I've often wondered about. I leave it with you over there on the other side of the Atlantic. I'm going home for dinner. Have a nice day. Bruce Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From mosind at yahoo.com Thu Feb 22 18:28:48 2001 From: mosind at yahoo.com (Constantine Xmelnitski) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:28:48 -0800 Subject: wa-i-khoshka? Message-ID: RLR: >The analysis I sent yesterday would be the folk analysis. > >wi-kho'shka (+its plant/weed) >fem-infection > >While it's possible that the "wi-" here is the feminine morpheme (as in >Wi-nona), the actual morphology here was probably: > >wa + i + kho'shka >ABS INS infected > --Guess that wa+i -> wi- coalescence should shift the stress to the initial syllable (as is in most (all?) other cases). Yet the entry in Buechel's dictionary has the stress according to Dakota Accent Rule: wikho'shka. By the way, I couldn't find any entry in Riggs Dakota-English dictionary (2nd ed.) with definition containing the word "ivy". The word for sumac is "chaNzi" - wood-yellow. Riggs has two entries for "venereal": k(h)oshka' (Teton), khomashka, to be affected with the venereal disease: i.q. che xli, and wik(h)os^ka, young woman. WJC remarks: "This word, like kos^ka, had a bad meaning in Teton and should be avoided: wis^aN yazaN, "a woman who is kos^ka, or affected with the venereal disease." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Feb 22 19:21:31 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:21:31 -0600 Subject: Baxoce Message-ID: > that "baxoje" was pronounced "paxoji"/"paxoci"/"pakoci" in our family dialect Lance, These are the variants I've found in my OED work, normalized orthographically (by me, a non-Siouanist, so beware!) All but the first are from English-language docs. paxote (French 1673, Fr. 1776) paxoje (1825, 1843) paxoce (1853, 1885) paxoci (1854) pakoTe (1877; T = theta) Alan From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Thu Feb 22 20:09:08 2001 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:09:08 -0600 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN Message-ID: I've noticed a very "strong" aspiration, verging on x, in Ponca after t before low back vowels, for instance in the word for 'Arapaho': maxpi' atHaN. One speaker I work with says this means "standing on the clouds," (verb tHaN). By the way, what is the etiquette when referring to speakers of a language we're studying? Should we protect their privacy by not mentioning their names or should we give them credit for their valuable assistance? Kathy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 9:29 AM Subject: Re: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN > On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Constantine Xmelnitski wrote: > > As is known, Lakhota dialect of Dakotan has two > > variations of aspirated stops : weak (h-like), and > > strong (x-like). ... > > In Dhegiha Osage has velar aspiration with p, t and k, i.e., not with c > (ts), which occurs instead of t before i, e, u. If velar aspiration > occurs before i, e and, I think, u, i.e., after p and k, but not t, the > velar is x palatalized to s^. So, ps^e, che, ks^e, ps^i, chi, ks^i, but > aNpxaN, petxaN, (a)kxa. Of course, the bulk of Dakotan aspirates and > stop-stop cluster correspond to tense stops in Dhegiha, and these manifest > in Osage as preaspirates, which lack velarization. Only a small > percentage of Dakotan aspirates correspond to (the few) aspirates in > Dhegiha languages. In fact Dhegiha th generally matches h in Dakotan (cf. > pehaN for petxaN above). MaNtho 'grizzly' has th in both. I believe Kaw > is generally like Osage in having velar aspiration (except for having c^ > affrication instead of c affrication), but Omaha-Ponca and Quapaw have > laryngeal aspiration. > > I gather that velar aspiration also occurs in some other families, e.g., > Athabascan, but I have never tracked down the details. > > Apart from this, in Indo-European, compare High German pf, ts, kx as > developments of ph, th, kh. You might call this "homorganic" aspiration. > I have also seen a discussion of ancient Greek corrspondence sets with ps, > ts, ks corresponding to aspirated ph, th, kh elsewhere in ancient Greek, > suggesting a sort of "sibilant" aspiration. > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Feb 22 21:01:09 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:01:09 -0700 Subject: Baxoce In-Reply-To: <3A9566BB.A1CDCF8F@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: > > that "baxoje" was pronounced "paxoji"/"paxoci"/"pakoci" in our family dialect > > Lance, > > These are the variants I've found in my OED work, normalized > orthographically (by me, a non-Siouanist, so beware!) All but the first > are from English-language docs. > > paxote (French 1673, Fr. 1776) > paxoje (1825, 1843) > paxoce (1853, 1885) > paxoci (1854) > pakoTe (1877; T = theta) > > Alan > The version with theta may involve some sort of confusion over the meaning of a symbol, as theta would not be expected. C-cedilla was used by Dorsey (BAE?) and LaFlesche for theta, but was used in Boas's Ponca Sketch for edh, in lieu of Dorsey's cent-sign. I think Dorsey used the cent-sign because the Government Printing Office of his day lacked an edh in its fonts. Boas used c-cedilla because the Canadian printer didn't have a cent-sign. In this case it seems likely that a c^ (or ts^) was meant. It's interesting that the earliest forms also lack the affrication of t before e. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Feb 22 21:05:36 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:05:36 -0700 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN In-Reply-To: <000801c09d0b$514a5180$600aed81@9afl3> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Kathleen Shea wrote: > I've noticed a very "strong" aspiration, verging on x, in Ponca after t > before low back vowels, for instance in the word for 'Arapaho': maxpi' > atHaN. One speaker I work with says this means "standing on the clouds," > (verb tHaN). I'm pretty sure Fletcher & LaFlesche give maxpiattu 'blue sky', which I think must be loosely adapted from Dakotan maxpiyatho 'blue sky'. Regularly Omaha would have maxpittu and Dakotan would have a velar aspiration that might underlie the Ponca reanalysis. I take it that velarized aspiration occurs in other words, too, though? > By the way, what is the etiquette when referring to speakers of a language > we're studying? Should we protect their privacy by not mentioning their > names or should we give them credit for their valuable assistance? I'm not sure about convention, but perhaps it should depend on the speaker's views? From mosind at yahoo.com Thu Feb 22 21:18:28 2001 From: mosind at yahoo.com (Constantine Xmelnitski) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:18:28 -0800 Subject: Distant kins & -shit- :-) Message-ID: Dear Siouanists: I have three questions on Siouan kinship terms. 1. What are the terms for greatgrand- fathers/mothers,and 2. What are the terms for distant relatives in eachgeneration. The possible ways out could be: 1) Using composite constructions, like "niyate txunkashitku", your-father's his-grandfather, orperhaps, Maxpiya Luta txakozhakpaku atewaye - Cloud-Redhis-grandchild father-I-have.for 2) Spreading closely-related kinsmen terms for distant ones, as: all the men in my generation, not recursively defined as my brothers - are called cousins if they are blood relations, and brothers-in-law if they are relatives by marriage. Possible hint testifying that Soln #2 can be true is the definition of Father-in-law (in Buechel's Lakota Grammar as I recall): "Father-in-law and other men in his generation, who are relatives of the spouse" John Koontz wrote me on Jan 22, 1999 in this regard: "There's a paper (unpublished, I think) by Richard Lungstrum which shows how the various Siouan systems all work to make it normal to use the same terms for everyone of a given sex and generation in the group of people one normally hangs out with." 3. Also, talking about the -shi(t)- suffix, he wrote: "There's a suffix -shi(t)- that applies to Dakotankinship terms that (as I recall) refer to classifications that one can't marryinto, or, to be more accurate, wouldn't dream of having sex with." --Yet the system of kinship terms seems to have obscured that meaning. Indeed, is it possible that I cannot have sex with mother-in-law (uncishi) but may with grandmother (unci). Why a man cannot dream of sex with his younger sis (txankshitku) and she CAN (he isher thibloku) :-))? Alfred WhiteHat claims that -shi- is a suffix of adoption, but that doesn't add more understanding tome. Connie. P.S. Oh, just got the message from Violet Catches: > "niyate txunkashitku" -no, niyate txokapxa, the oldest (uncle) unci txanka is great grandmother __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Feb 22 21:43:52 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:43:52 -0600 Subject: Baxoce Message-ID: > The version with theta may involve some sort of confusion over the meaning > of a symbol, as theta would not be expected. The form is from L. H. MORGAN Ancient Soc. 155 (cited in F. W. HODGE Hdbk. Amer. Indians I. (1907) 614/2), and he writes it pa-kuh'-tha (both a's have diaeresis). Alan From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Thu Feb 22 23:40:16 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:40:16 -0600 Subject: wa-i-khoshka? Message-ID: > >wa + i + kho'shka > >ABS INS infected > --Guess that wa+i -> wi- coalescence should shift the > stress to the initial syllable (as is in most (all?) > other cases). Yet the entry in Buechel's dictionary has the stress > according to Dakota Accent Rule: > wikho'shka. Thanks for the addition/correction. I agree in principle. That's how the accentuation rule works. However, if the form was indeed folk- etymologized the other way, i.e., as wi- 'female' plus khoshka 'VD', then the accent may have shifted accordingly. I really have no way to know, but it seems to me that both remain possibilities. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 23 00:20:56 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:20:56 -0700 Subject: Distant kins & -shit- :-) In-Reply-To: <20010222211828.21742.qmail@web123.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Constantine Xmelnitski wrote: > I have three questions on Siouan kinship terms. > 1. What are the terms for greatgrand- > fathers/mothers,and The pattern in Omaha is for all fathers of grandfathers to be termed grandfathers, too, and so on up. I suspect this pattern generalizes to most other Siouan systems, though perhaps the thaNka modifier system Violet mentioned occurs more widely than I realize. If I recall this properly - note that Omaha has an Omaha kinship system - all males in the mother's father's line are grandfathers and all females are grandmothers. I'm positive that all males and females below mother's brother in mother's lineage are mother's brother (uncle) and mother, respectively. Among themselves Siouan kinship systems cover a fairly large range of types. > 2. What are the terms for distant relatives in > eachgeneration. In Omaha systems the critical factor is usually the lineage, and then, within that, the generation. Some lineages have extremely simple system, e.g., mother's father's lineage. Ego's lineage has the most complex scheme. > 1) Using composite constructions, like "niyate > txunkashitku", your-father's his-grandfather, > orperhaps, Generally compounded sequences like this aren't used. From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu Fri Feb 23 00:37:45 2001 From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:37:45 -0600 Subject: wiragos^ge Message-ID: As far as I know, wiragos^ge never means "moon," but "star." From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu Fri Feb 23 00:53:34 2001 From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:53:34 -0600 Subject: Platte, Nebraska (WI) Message-ID: Here's the WI material that I've collected that pertains to Nebraska, Platte: n� par�sra Platte River. [Gatschet] paras to be broad [Marino-Radin] paras wide [Gatschet, Marino-Radin] parasdi to be broad [Marino-Radin] parasti broad (very wide) [Foster] Here, clearly, the name reflects width rather than shallowness. I can't resist mentioning here what I recollect that someone said in the Senate about William Jennings Bryant: "The senator is like the great Platte River of his native Nebraska, a mile wide at the mouth and about an inch deep." From wbgrail at hotmail.com Fri Feb 23 01:11:52 2001 From: wbgrail at hotmail.com (WENDY BRANWELL) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:11:52 -0600 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ioway at earthlink.net Fri Feb 23 03:04:23 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:04:23 -0700 Subject: Baxoce Message-ID: "Alan H. Hartley" wrote: > > The version with theta may involve some sort of confusion over the meaning > > of a symbol, as theta would not be expected. > > The form is from L. H. MORGAN Ancient Soc. 155 (cited in F. W. HODGE > Hdbk. Amer. Indians I. (1907) 614/2), and he writes it pa-kuh'-tha (both > a's have diaeresis). > > Alan That was an error, as Pakhtha/pa-kuh'tha was an archaic term for the Beaver Clan (Morgan in White 1959) and is also listed as such on the same page in Hodge (up near the top). Lance -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 23 06:23:31 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:23:31 -0700 Subject: wiragos^ge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Richard L. Dieterle wrote: > As far as I know, wiragos^ge never means "moon," but "star." Oops! Quite right. I seem to have dropped one of the facts on the floor. JEK From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Fri Feb 23 10:40:10 2001 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 04:40:10 -0600 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN Message-ID: Yes, Fletcher & LaFlesche do give the form Maxpi'ato ("blue clouds") for both Arapaho and Kiowa on page 102 of the Omaha Tribe, and the word might very well have been borrowed from Dakotan and reanalyzed, but I'm just saying that there is strong aspiration in the Ponca word (and nasalization of the last vowel). I'm not sure about other aspirated stops before low back vowels. As you know, aspirated stops are somewhat rare in Omaha-Ponca, occurring mostly in the definite articles (of which, of course, tHaN is one). The definite article akHa' doesn't have strong, velar aspiration, but I seem to recall that the word for 'elk' does: aNpHaN. (I'm using H here for a raised h, which is necessary in the standard orthography for Ponca. Omaha writing differs only in that the low back nasal vowel is written oN instead of aN in these examples. Also, I don't think that any long vowels are recorded in the Omaha standard writing currently being used.) Actually, I should have written a nasal vowel for the first vowel in the word for Arapaho since that's what I heard: maNxpi' atHaN. I'll try to be on the lookout for other examples. Kathy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 3:05 PM Subject: Re: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN > On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Kathleen Shea wrote: > > > I've noticed a very "strong" aspiration, verging on x, in Ponca after t > > before low back vowels, for instance in the word for 'Arapaho': maxpi' > > atHaN. One speaker I work with says this means "standing on the clouds," > > (verb tHaN). > > I'm pretty sure Fletcher & LaFlesche give maxpiattu 'blue sky', which I > think must be loosely adapted from Dakotan maxpiyatho 'blue sky'. > Regularly Omaha would have maxpittu and Dakotan would have a velar > aspiration that might underlie the Ponca reanalysis. I take it that > velarized aspiration occurs in other words, too, though? > > > By the way, what is the etiquette when referring to speakers of a language > > we're studying? Should we protect their privacy by not mentioning their > > names or should we give them credit for their valuable assistance? > > I'm not sure about convention, but perhaps it should depend on the > speaker's views? > > From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Fri Feb 23 11:19:46 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:19:46 GMT Subject: (Fwd) Re: Lakota names Message-ID: Following last nights contribution about complex morphology of words chuwignaka 'woman's dress' (che ditto ?, wi 'fem?, gnaka 'put') This is of course more probably chuwi 'back', gnaka 'put' ie put on and covering the back. Having started off with loins I sort of got focussed on it. But it illustrates the point just as well. Bruce Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Fri Feb 23 11:46:25 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:46:25 GMT Subject: Distant kins & -shit- :-) In-Reply-To: <20010222211828.21742.qmail@web123.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: re Constantine's message I have seen sam thunkas^ila for great grandfather and somewhere the usage of akhotaNhaN 'beyond' for 'great grandson'. Something like thakoja akhotanhan, but I'm not sure. thakoja and sam chiNca 'grandchild' can also just mean 'descendant' of course. I have three questions on Siouan kinship terms. 1. What are the terms for greatgrand- fathers/mothers,and 2. What are the terms for distant relatives in eachgeneration. P.S. Oh, just got the message from Violet Catches: > "niyate txunkashitku" -no, niyate txokapxa, the oldest (uncle) unci txanka is great grandmother __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Fri Feb 23 14:05:03 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:05:03 GMT Subject: Names In-Reply-To: <001001c09d85$000654c0$3b09ed81@9afl3> Message-ID: On the subject of names again, I recently met over here a man called Colin Taylor, who I believe David Rood has also had e-mail contact with, who has written a few things about Plains culture and history and was interested in the question of Sitting Bull's name and whether it really was 'Sitting Bull' ThathaNka Iyotake (or Iyotaka) or in fact ThathaNka IyotaNka 'Most Important Bull'. Boas and Deloria's Grammar actually favours the second meaning. I myself always thought that the presence of the -N- in the word for sitting was through the influence of Dakota which was written much earlier and might at that stage have become a sort of standard or perhaps the name was originally written down by a Santee or someone who had learnt to write Santee. Also, although I don't know any other name with Iyotake 'sitting', there are quite a few parallel names with najiN 'standing', ThathaNka Najin 'Standing Buffalo', Heh^aka NajiN 'Standing Elk', Matho H^lo NajiN 'Standing Growling Bear' etc. Also haven't ever seen iyotaN as a modifier following a noun, but usually as a emphasiser 'most' followed by a modifying verb as in iyotaN thaNka 'most great' or in the verb iyotaNla 'think important'. Also the pictograph for his name has a buffalo turned vertically as though sitting. Has anyone else heard of this controversy. Any ideas? Bruce PS a last flash of inspiration. Perhaps it could have been thathaNka iyotaN thaNka 'most great bull', like ChetaN ThaNka 'Great Hawk' Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Fri Feb 23 15:05:47 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:05:47 -0600 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN Message-ID: > I've noticed a very "strong" aspiration, verging on x, in Ponca after t > before low back vowels, for instance in the word for 'Arapaho': maxpi' > atHaN. One speaker I work with says this means "standing on the clouds," > (verb tHaN). For form I've heard is maxpi(dh)a tto 'blue clouds'. Looks like another folk reanalysis. Someone should write a paper as there seems to be a very productive folk etymology process among Siouan speakers. > By the way, what is the etiquette when referring to speakers of a language > we're studying? Should we protect their privacy by not mentioning their > names or should we give them credit for their valuable assistance? Check, you may have signed one of those statements dreamed up by the biohazard people that affirms you'll maintain their anonymity. Might not hurt to get their OK certainly. Bob From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Fri Feb 23 15:29:46 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:29:46 -0600 Subject: Ioway baxoje, paoutet, etc. Message-ID: The transcriptions of the Ioway self-identifier with apparent stop consonants, e.g. "paoutet", etc. on some early French maps, should be taken with a grain of salt. 1. French had no "ch" sound, either phonemically or phonetically and had not had since about the 12th century. They had no "dj" sound either. So they had to write any such sound they heard in some other way. In the modern language the spelling conventions tch and dj are most often used. But in the 17th century there was no real standard. 2. In Canadian dialects of French (and perhaps those in the areas of France from which most colonials came) the stops /t/ and /d/ are pronounced as affricates [ts] and [dz]. It may well be that a spelling like "Paoutet" for the Ioway represented [paxotse] and was thus the closest they could get to the ch that they heard from speakers. We would need to check for such transcriptions by English speakers. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 23 16:41:30 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:41:30 -0700 Subject: Censorship Message-ID: Somebody at ag.ch probably isn't getting all their mail? Connie's message with -s*h*i*t- in it (homophonous only, anyway, not the real thing) seems to have been quarantined, whatever that means. You can pick it up at the archive site if pseudo-scatologically inclined: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/siouan.html I assure the authorities at ag.ch that no irreparable harm will ensue from reading this message. I'm surprised Bruce Ingham's comments about loins slipped through. JEK ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:56:53 +0100 From: Systemaufsicht To: 'Koontz John E' Subject: ScanMail Message: To Sender, sensitive content found and action t aken. Trend SMEX Content Filter has detected sensitive content. Place = siouan at lists.colorado.edu; ; ; siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sender = Koontz John E Subject = Re: Distant kins & -s*h*i*t- :-) Delivery Time = February 23, 2001 (Friday) 08:56:51 Policy = Dirty Words Action on this mail = Quarantine message Warning message from administrator: Sender, Content filter has detected dirty words in e-mail. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 23 16:46:29 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:46:29 -0700 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN In-Reply-To: <001001c09d85$000654c0$3b09ed81@9afl3> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Kathleen Shea wrote: > As you know, aspirated stops are somewhat rare in Omaha-Ponca, occurring > mostly in the definite articles (of which, of course, tHaN is one). The > definite article akHa' doesn't have strong, velar aspiration, but I seem > to recall that the word for 'elk' does: aNpHaN. > Actually, I should have written a nasal vowel for the first vowel in the > word for Arapaho since that's what I heard: maNxpi' atHaN. I'll try to > be on the lookout for other examples. The only one that occurs to me at the moment would be thaN as an article in other contexts. I notice also something here that I hadn't noticed before, which is that the original "thematic" -a suffix of Da maNxpiya, superflous in OP maNxpi, has been reinterpreted as the locative a- 'on'. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 23 16:54:33 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:54:33 -0700 Subject: Ioway baxoje, paoutet, etc. In-Reply-To: <3A9681EA.4020006@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: This is very helpful. On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, RLR wrote: > The transcriptions of the Ioway self-identifier with apparent stop > consonants, e.g. "paoutet", etc. on some early French maps, should be > taken with a grain of salt. > > 1. French had no "ch" sound, either phonemically or phonetically and > had not had since about the 12th century. They had no "dj" sound either. > So they had to write any such sound they heard in some other way. In the > modern language the spelling conventions tch and dj are most often used. > But in the 17th century there was no real standard. However, I have seen both tch and dj (or, I think, dge) in early 1700s French transcriptions specifically of Ioway-Otoe. On the other hand, it occurs to me that a version with t might well be a Miami-Illinois version. > 2. In Canadian dialects of French (and perhaps those in the areas of > France from which most colonials came) the stops /t/ and /d/ are > pronounced as affricates [ts] and [dz]. It may well be that a spelling > like "Paoutet" for the Ioway represented [paxotse] and was thus the > closest they could get to the ch that they heard from speakers. We would > need to check for such transcriptions by English speakers. > > Bob From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Fri Feb 23 17:05:40 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:05:40 -0600 Subject: Ioway baxoje, paoutet, etc. Message-ID: > I have seen both tch and dj (or, I think, dge) in early 1700s > French transcriptions specifically of Ioway-Otoe. On the other hand, it > occurs to me that a version with t might well be a Miami-Illinois version. But that says nothing about the phonetic value of preceding in other transcriptions by other individuals. My point is that those spellings simply do not show that Ioway-Otoe-Missouria still had [t] before front vowels. B. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri Feb 23 18:38:27 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:38:27 -0600 Subject: Ioway baxoje, paoutet, etc. Message-ID: RLR wrote: > > The transcriptions of the Ioway self-identifier with apparent stop > consonants, e.g. "paoutet", etc. on some early French maps, should be > taken with a grain of salt. > > 1. French had no "ch" sound, either phonemically or phonetically and > had not had since about the 12th century. They had no "dj" sound either. > So they had to write any such sound they heard in some other way. In the > modern language the spelling conventions tch and dj are most often used. > But in the 17th century there was no real standard. No standard, but they did usually distinguish ch, e.g., some ethnonyms (with my OED headword forms): Apalatci (1591, Apalachee) (Hi-)attchiritiny (1737 (ay-)Archithinue) Metchigamea (1674 Michigamea; cf. Matsigamea in 1698) Natches (1690 Natchez) Natchetes (1698 Natchitoch; cf. Nachitos in 1714) Outchibiue (1668 Ojibway) Cadodacchos (1698 Kadohadacho) Chacchi-Ouma (1774 Chakchiuma; and Chachouma in 1702) Chikacha (1698 Chickasa) Chetimacha (1770 Chitimacha; and Chotymacha in 1699) Tchiacta (1708 Choctaw) Otchagra (1761 Hochunk) > 2. In Canadian dialects of French (and perhaps those in the areas of > France from which most colonials came) the stops /t/ and /d/ are > pronounced as affricates [ts] and [dz]. It may well be that a spelling > like "Paoutet" for the Ioway represented [paxotse] and was thus the > closest they could get to the ch that they heard from speakers. Judging from the above examples, I think they could have gotten closer: *Pa(h)outche. Alan From ioway at earthlink.net Sat Feb 24 02:27:24 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:27:24 -0700 Subject: Nebraska Message-ID: Platte ne-bras-ka “flat water” (O) (Say in Thwaites (17):300) Valley a-bras-ka (O) (Say in Thwaites (17):295) River nesh-noug-a “running water” (O) (Say in Thwaites (17):295) nischna (I) (Maximilian in Thwaites 245) Spring ne-wa-bru “water springing up” (O) (Say in Thwaites (17):295) Lance RLR wrote: > > > Ok.. I am trying to get a better handle of the s/th/hk transformation/shift > > > ... it is clear that in early times it did have s/s^/x > > (etc.) more or less in synchrony with the other languages. > > Ted Grimm did a talk on this about 3 years ago at the Siouan Conference. > He did find early transcriptions with "s" in place of "theta" (th). I > don't remember his dates/sources off the top of my head. Maybe he is > reading the list...? > > > The usual explanations for sound changes of this sort revolve around > > unconscious individual human efforts to express group solidarity by > > adopting (progressively exagerating) certain perceived markers of > group identity, in this case pronunciation norms. > > Labov (his 1994 book) has finally admitted that "imitation" in any real > sense is only a characteristic of a relatively few sound changes and > that most (as we've known since the 1880's) are blind, fortuitous and no > respecters of meaning. No sound change begins for any sort of > sociolinguistic reason. All have to do with the shape and movements of > the human articulatory and perceptual apparatus (the mouth, tongue, > teeth, larynx, etc.) AFTER the change has already taken place, however, > it can be diffused from person to person, group to group via immitation. > This is what linguists have traditionally called "dialect borrowing". > And as John points out, at that point it can involve the notion of > "prestige" (tho that doesn't necessarily refer to class distinctions). > > My lecture for the day. ;-) > > Bob -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From ioway at earthlink.net Sat Feb 24 02:44:38 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:44:38 -0700 Subject: z to dh in Otoe Message-ID: Some examples of a change in Otoe, from z to dh in the 1820s or thereafter (note how many words were closer to Dak/Om) (by comparison the terminal "a" in maza should be pronounced "e", as in Bison cha (O) (Say in Thwaites (17):296 [should be che (Om: te, Dak: pte])..terminal "e" in these old transcriptions should be "i": [musket-]ball: ma-za-muh (O) (Say in Thwaites (17):300) [mazema = maze (iron/metal) + ma (arrow/missile)] Copper ma-za-ze (O) (Say in Thwaites (17):297) [mazezi = maze + zi (yellow)] Iron ma-za (O) (Say in Thwaites (17):297) [maze Yellow ze (O) (Say in Thwaites (17):297 [zi, now dhi] Besides the shift to dh (eth) from z... The shift is from s to th ..not only seen in the "Nebraska" post of today but also that "sewe" originally meant "black" not "dark" and that "thewe" is an example of the shift to voiced from voiceless... Black sa-wa (O) (Say in Thwaites (17):297) [sewe or sawe .. see how much closer it was to Dak sapa and Om sabe?] So rather than as Jimm suggests that sewe (dark) was derived from thewe.. the historic evidence shows that it was the other way around ..sewe (1820s) -> thewe (1900 ca.) .. man that is some awful fast linguistic change You linguists can help me understand this shift to voiced from voiceless in Chiwere with the examples here of z -> dh and s -> th .. I know this is consistent in its mechanism ..I just can't remember the terminology Lance -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Sun Feb 25 13:51:55 2001 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 07:51:55 -0600 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN Message-ID: I've been following the discussions about clouds, sky, celestial luminaries, birds, and bugs, and I'll take this opportunity to comment without trying to look up all the original postings to the Siouan list. I checked by phone with a couple of the Ponca-speaking elders I work with for some examples containing the words we've been discussing. Although, I don't think they care if I identify them, or might even prefer that I do, I'll just refer to these two elders by their initials PW (whom I call Uncle) and his sister-in-law BL (whom I call Aunt). I'll try to write the examples in "net Siouan," with the standard written form in parentheses. BL says that wagdhis^ka (wagthishka) refers to crawling bugs but does admit that it could include ladybugs. When I asked about inclusion of various flying and crawling insects, I mostly got specific names for them. She says that the word waz^i~'ga (wazhi'Nga) refers only to chickens and uses the word kkippa'j^a (kipa'ja) for any type of little flying bird. The large birds, such as birds of prey, all have specific names. She says that ma~xpi' (maNxpi') can mean 'cloud' or 'sky.' I couldn't get her to say anything in Ponca that could be translated, 'There are no clouds in the sky,' but I did get the sentence a(a)'ma~xpi (a(a)'maNxpi) 'It's cloudy.' (I'm using parentheses around the second a, because I'm unsure of the length, even though I did hear something of a glottal stop or "creaky voice" here, which often accompanies long vowels.) PW says that wagdhi's^ka (wagthi'shka) is a worm or crawling insect but could also be a lizard. He said he would use the term wagdhi's^ka gia~' (wagthi'shka giaN') for flying insects like bees, flies, and fireflies. A descriptive term, waz^i~'ga wadhi'ze (wazhiN'ga wathi'ze), literally, 'bird that picks up chickens,' applies to a chicken hawk and all kinds of hawk. For PW, waz^i'~ga (wazhiN'ga) means 'chicken, bird,' and kkippa'j^a (kipa'ja) are 'little chicks just hatched, little birds in the nest.' He says that ma~xpi' (maNxpi') is 'cloud,' and ma~(a~)'g^e (maN(aN)'ghe) is 'sky.' In a few short minutes, I got a plethora of sentences about clouds and weather, shown here with PW's translations (with parentheses used here in the Ponca words for elision): ma~xpi'i (MaNxpi'i.) 'It's cloudy.' a~'b(a) akha' ma~xpi'i (AN'ba akHa' maNxpi'i.) 'The day is cloudy.' (PW says this is like a warning, i.e. to take a coat.) a~'b(a) akha' ma~xpi' akha' (AN'ba akHa' maNxpi' akHa'.) 'It's cloudy out there, here.' (PW says that it's as though you just noticed or just stepped outside and noticed.) a~'ba th(e) ea~wa (AN'ba tHe eaNwa?) 'How's the weather out there?' (to which the first statement and the one immediately above are answers) a'ama~xpi' (A'amaNxpi'.) 'It's clouding up. (scattered clouds) ma~xpi'ia (MaNxpi'ia?) 'Is it cloudy out there?' a~'kkaz^i a'ama~xpi (AN'kazhi, a'amaNxpi.) 'No, it's just cloudy here and there.' a~ba' akha kke'dhae (ANba' akHa ke'thai.) 'It's clear out there.' a~ba' akha kke'dha a'i akha (ANba' akHa ke'tha a'i akHa.) 'It's clearing up now.' a~'ba the kke'dha (AN'ba tHe ke'tha.) 'It's clear; today is clear.' a~ba' akha kke'dha akha (ANba' akHa ke'tha akHa.) 'It's clear out there.' (just noticed) A~'ba khe da~'baga (AN'ba kHe daN'baga!) 'See about the weather!' (man speaking to one person) There is a woman's name, kke'dhawi~ (Ke'thawiN), that means something like 'calm disposition.' (Women's names often end in -wi~ (-wiN) or begin with mi~- (miN-), the latter apparently homophonous with the word for 'moon, sun.') PW says that mi~ (miN) means both 'sun' and 'moon,' although it's hard for me to tell if the vowel is really nasal or not. He differentiates the two by using the phrases a~ba mi~ (aNba miN) 'sun, day luminary' and ha~da~ mi~ (haNdaN miN) 'moon.' The word nia~'ba (niaN'ba) means 'moonlight,' according to PW. I hope these examples prove interesting. Kathy Shea ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 10:46 AM Subject: Re: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN > On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Kathleen Shea wrote: > > > As you know, aspirated stops are somewhat rare in Omaha-Ponca, occurring > > mostly in the definite articles (of which, of course, tHaN is one). The > > definite article akHa' doesn't have strong, velar aspiration, but I seem > > to recall that the word for 'elk' does: aNpHaN. > > > Actually, I should have written a nasal vowel for the first vowel in the > > word for Arapaho since that's what I heard: maNxpi' atHaN. I'll try to > > be on the lookout for other examples. > > The only one that occurs to me at the moment would be thaN as an article > in other contexts. > > I notice also something here that I hadn't noticed before, which is that > the original "thematic" -a suffix of Da maNxpiya, superflous in OP maNxpi, > has been reinterpreted as the locative a- 'on'. > > JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Feb 26 07:38:04 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 00:38:04 -0700 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN In-Reply-To: <005a01c09f32$1e2694c0$1509ed81@9afl3> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Feb 2001, Kathleen Shea wrote: Without reiterating the details, it's interesting that you get somewhat different answers from different individuals - different also from others elsewhere at other times. PW appears more in line with "traditional knowledge" among Siouanists, but BL's views show that Siouanists should beware trying to apply historical data in modern situations. There are various techniques for working with ethnotaxonymy. The one example that comes to mind is that one can investigate classifications by using possible superordinate terms in referring back to an example in the immediate context, e.g., in English: That tarantula is one ugly !spider/?bug/*animal/creature! We had to put a wire cover on the chicken coop to protect them from eagles and other birds/animals/?creatures like that. This is an iguana. A lizzard/*bug/creature like that is fairly common around here. I think you usually get better results with tests like this than by asking people to classify things themselves, especially if there's a competing system (like the Linnaean one or the English one) in the way. It's also interesting to notice the differences in gloss between the "progressive" and the non-progressive examples' glosses. > a~'b(a) akha' ma~xpi'i (AN'ba akHa' maNxpi'i.) 'The day is cloudy.' (PW > says this is like a warning, i.e. to take a coat.) > a~'b(a) akha' ma~xpi' akha' (AN'ba akHa' maNxpi' akHa'.) 'It's cloudy out > there, here.' (PW says that it's as though you > just noticed or just stepped outside and noticed.) > a~'ba the kke'dha (AN'ba tHe ke'tha.) 'It's clear; today is clear.' > a~ba' akha kke'dha akha (ANba' akHa ke'tha akHa.) 'It's clear out there.' > (just noticed) From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu Mon Feb 26 14:35:44 2001 From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 08:35:44 -0600 Subject: bear, acorn Message-ID: I wonder if anyone can answer this: which came first, the bear or the acorn? Is the bear the "acorn-eater", or is the acorn "bear-food"? Some material (Winnebago unless otherwise stated): hujera acorn [Foster] huc, huj, hunjra acorn [Gatschet] huNc bear [Marino-Radin, contemporary Hocak] hunc bear [Radin] HuNc Hikikarac Bear Clan [Gatschet] hunjera bear [Foster] huNjera bears [Lamere-Radin] HuNjga Bear, a Bear Clan personal name [Dorsey] hujijaN a bear [Radin] Ofo: uthi bear [Dorsey] Biloxi: oNt'i, oNdi bear [Dorsey] Biloxi: anyaN, udi acorn [Dorsey] From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Feb 26 15:47:36 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 08:47:36 -0700 Subject: bear, acorn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Richard L. Dieterle wrote: > I wonder if anyone can answer this: which came first, the bear or the acorn? Is > the bear the "acorn-eater", or is the acorn "bear-food"? Some material > (Winnebago unless otherwise stated): > > hujera acorn [Foster] > huc, huj, hunjra acorn [Gatschet] > huNc bear [Marino-Radin, contemporary Hocak] > hunc bear [Radin] > Ofo: uthi bear [Dorsey] > Biloxi: oNt'i, oNdi bear [Dorsey] > Biloxi: anyaN, udi acorn [Dorsey] I don't recall all the details, but the 'acorn' set is basically oral, while the '(black)bear' set is nasal. The 'bear' set is widely replaced by forms meaning 'the black one' in Mississippi Valley Siouan, cf. wasabe in Omaha-Ponca. The 'acorn' set is somewhat irregular. The Omaha-Ponca correspondent is bu'de. The two sets are not obviously related. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Feb 26 16:03:34 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 09:03:34 -0700 Subject: Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences Message-ID: Incidentally, think further about Richard Dieterle's acorn : bear comparison, one of the interesting things about the Siouan languages is that (as far as I can recall) they don't make any productive use of nasalization as a morpheme. Apart from this, some sets are nasal, some are oral, in those languages that have nasality as a vowel feature. Crow and Hidatsa don't have nasalization at all, except as a contextually determined feature of some consonants: basically initial /w/ and /r/ in Hidatsa and /w/ and /r/ in clusters in Crow, if I remember correctly. The rest of the languages come very close to have nasality only in vowels, and, secondarily, in /w/ and /r/ before nasal vowels. Each languages has various exceptions and/or complications to this. There are a few sets that are nasal in some languages and oral in others. The main instance that I recall is *hapa ~ haNpa 'ear of corn'. This is actually one reason for supposing that the set might be a loan. In Muskogean nasality is used to mark one of the verb aspects. However, the real reason for thinking of Muskogean in connection with this set is the existence of a verb habali 'to form tassels (of corn plants)' in Choctaw. I believe, however, that this form may be restricted to Choctaw(-Chickasaw) in Muskogean. Another unusual set is the one represented by wiNyaN 'woman' in Dakotan. One might expect miNyaN. The -yaN is nasalized by spreading from wiN-, so the set is actually something like wiN-y-a or wiNy-a underlyingly, depending on whether one takes the y as intrusive or part of the stem. I think the -a is essentially comparable to the "epenthetic a" in other nouns like s^uN'ka. It is, in any event, similarly deleted in older patterns of compounding for both kinds of stems. Comparisons with other branches of Siouan suggest that this stem is historically *wiNh(e), with one idea as to why it doesn't nasalize w in a number of languages being that the final h effects the nasalizability of the initial w. JEK From BARudes at aol.com Mon Feb 26 17:13:29 2001 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:13:29 EST Subject: Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences Message-ID: The situation with respect to nasality becomes much more complicated when the Catawban languages are brought into the picture. Unlike the Siouan languages, there is no evidence to suggest that /m/ and /n/ are secondary developments from *w and *r before a nasal vowel. Rather, *m, *n,*w and *r must be reconstructed as independent phonemes for Proto-Catawban,along with a contrast between long and short oral vowels and (inherently long) nasal vowels. There is good documentation to show that, in the mid-1800s, Catawba began undergoing a process of denasalization, whereby /m/ and /n/ partially and then fully denasalized before an oral vowel that was not followed by a nasal consonant. This process, when combined with loan words and a voicing of /p/ and /t/ to [b] and [d] before voiced consonants resulted in the creation of new phonemes /b/ and /d/. In addition, the phoneme *r was nasalized to /n/ in word-initial position when followed by a nasal vowel or an oral vowel plus a nasal consonant. Elsewhere, initial *r merged with /d/. A major contrast between the two documented dialects of Catawba, which Siebert named Saraw and Esaw, is that the former frequently (but not always) has nasal vowels where the latter has long oral vowels, e.g., Saraw ki~ the : Esaw ki: the; Saraw ka~ya: terrapin (accent on the first vowel) :Esaw ka:ya: terrapin (accent on the first vowel). There appear to have been similar differences between Woccon and Catawba (both dialects), as illustrated by Woccon Wittaw Rat (/wi:ta:?/) versus Catawba (both dialects) wi~ta:? rat,and Woccon Ikettau Bread and Catawba (both dialects) ikta~? baked. There are also differences in the distribution of nasal versus oral vowels between Catawba and Proto-Siouan. For example, the verb meaning give is ku~ in Catawba, versusProto-Siouan *k?u:. At present, based on the Catawba data and at least some of the irregular sets within Siouan, I lean toward the reverse of the usual explanation for the development of the nasal/oral distribution within Siouan, that is, that pre-Proto-Siouan (Proto-Siouan-Catawban) distinguish phonemes *m,*n, *r, *w and oral and nasal vowels, and that the nasalization of *r and *w to*n and *m before nasal vowels, and the denasalization of *m and *n to *w and *r before oral vowels was a Proto-Siouan innovation – an innovation that was not implemented in the Catawban languages until the mid-1800s. Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Mon Feb 26 17:27:17 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:27:17 -0600 Subject: Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences Message-ID: The 'bear' and 'acorn' words seem just to be distinct words for very different things that accidently sound a little bit alike. The acorn word seems to be found throughout the Siouan language family in one form or another. The bear word however appears to be a borrowing from Uto-Aztecan, where similar forms are found throughout that family. Jane Hill told me a few months ago when we were discussing this, that the proto-form in U-A is *hun. There is an additional syllable in most U-A languages and a number of the languages have forms that are very much like the irregularly corresponding Siouan words for the animal. I can't regard my analysis here as totally definitive, but this is the way things look to me. > There are a few sets that are nasal in some languages and oral in others. > The main instance that I recall is *hapa ~ haNpa 'ear of corn'. This is > actually one reason for supposing that the set might be a loan. In > Muskogean nasality is used to mark one of the verb aspects. Yes, the continuative aspect. > However, the > real reason for thinking of Muskogean in connection with this set is the > existence of a verb habali 'to form tassels (of corn plants)' in Choctaw. > I believe, however, that this form may be restricted to > Choctaw(-Chickasaw) in Muskogean. I don't know if anyone has ever checked Alabama and Koasati, etc. Guess I should. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Feb 26 19:26:04 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:26:04 -0700 Subject: Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences In-Reply-To: <29.10fb78da.27cbe8b9@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Feb 2001 BARudes at aol.com wrote: > The situation with respect to nasality becomes much more complicated when the > Catawban languages are brought into the picture. Unlike the Siouan > languages, there is no evidence to suggest that /m/ and /n/ are secondary > developments from *w and *r before a nasal vowel. Rather, *m, *n,*w and *r > must be reconstructed as independent phonemes for Proto-Catawban,along with a > contrast between long and short oral vowels and (inherently long) nasal > vowels. There are a few Siouan sets that make *n seem likely, too, like *ni... 'to be in pain'. This is a sort of messy set and I don't recall the details off the top of my head. This one just never seems to act like r + VN unless the language is quite faithful to the r + VN => nVN pattern. There might well be ways around this, e.g., taking the first syllable as prepronominals (a preverb), but as neither I nor anyone else has worked out the details, and as most comparative Siouanists seem somewhat uncomfortable with a presumption of *m and *n conditioned strictly by vowel nasality, I'm taking a cautious approach. > At present, based on the Catawba data and at least some of the irregular > sets within Siouan, I lean toward the reverse of the usual explanation > for the development of the nasal/oral distribution within Siouan, that > is, that pre-Proto-Siouan (Proto-Siouan-Catawban) distinguish phonemes > *m,*n, *r, *w and oral and nasal vowels, and that the nasalization of *r > and *w to*n and *m before nasal vowels, and the denasalization of *m and > *n to *w and *r before oral vowels was a Proto-Siouan innovation > [something that got rendered as gibberish in my mailer JEK] an > innovation that was not implemented in the Catawban languages until the > mid-1800s. This wouldn't be the only case of similar developments in different Siouan(-Caddoan) languages separated by long periods of time. For example, the loss of *s^ 'second person agent' in *r-stems in Dakotan (before contact) and in Omaha-Ponca (from the 1870s). JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Feb 26 19:28:49 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:28:49 -0700 Subject: Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences In-Reply-To: <3A9A91F5.4040500@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, RLR wrote: > The bear word however appears to be a borrowing from Uto-Aztecan, where > similar forms are found throughout that family. ... 'bean' also looks like a loan from UA Another set that is strikingly similar is 'blue (~ green)', though I suppose it could be a coincidence. We are dealing with monosyllables and disyllables of fairly simple form. JEK From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Mon Feb 26 21:10:40 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 15:10:40 -0600 Subject: Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences Message-ID: > 'bean' also looks like a loan from UA "Bean" has look-alikes in UA, but it is not reconstructable there either. The family where the 'bean' word seems to be native is Yuman. > Another set that is strikingly similar is 'blue (~ green)', though I > suppose it could be a coincidence. We are dealing with monosyllables and > disyllables of fairly simple form. I don't know the 'blue' term, but 'bear' and 'bean' are at least disyllables and the semantic matches are quite precise. So we're not dealing with the same kinds of chance resemblance problems that often plague distant genetic comparisons. The interesting thing about 'bear' is that it would have to be so early, since it's all over Siouan in one form or another. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Feb 26 23:28:05 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 16:28:05 -0700 Subject: Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences In-Reply-To: <3A9AC650.7040604@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, RLR wrote: > > 'bean' also looks like a loan from UA > > "Bean" has look-alikes in UA, but it is not reconstructable there > either. The family where the 'bean' word seems to be native is Yuman. Of course, YUMAN Beans! From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Feb 26 23:40:36 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 17:40:36 -0600 Subject: Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences Message-ID: > Of course, YUMAN Beans! Have you got a good straight-man or what?! From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Feb 26 23:40:30 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 16:40:30 -0700 Subject: Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences In-Reply-To: <3A9AC650.7040604@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, RLR wrote: > I don't know the 'blue' term, ... I'll look it up. > but 'bear' and 'bean' are at least disyllables ... The last syllable of bear is sort of "non-contrastive" in Siouan, of course, though 'bean' is nicely complex (cf. OP hiNbdhiNge). It was 'blue' (or 'grue') I was thinking of, since it's something like *hto(ho) (cf. OP ttu). > and the semantic matches are quite precise. That's a good point. Short cognates are better when the correspondence of meaning (and even form) are fairly exact, as they are in all these cases ('bear' and 'bean' - 'blue' is a separate case, especially until I track down the forms). Nothing like c^e and ki, both referring to some body part, to raise suspicions, especially with lots of other stuff attached to them. > So we're not dealing with the same kinds of chance resemblance problems > that often plague distant genetic comparisons. The interesting thing > about 'bear' is that it would have to be so early, since it's all over > Siouan in one form or another. Yes, and why would one borrow a term for 'black bear'? They're all over, too. And these are two families that are not normally considered to be in heavy contact at any point in their histories. One further point is that I'm not sure how far south Ursus (Euarctos) americanus (or Ursus horribilis (?), either) ranges. And didn't you (Bob) just mention to me in some context that Jane Hill thought UA might well originate much further south than previously thought? JEK From ioway at earthlink.net Tue Feb 27 01:47:12 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 18:47:12 -0700 Subject: Bean/Bear/Circumlocution Message-ID: > I guess the derivation for bean from the southwest language groups makes > sense based in the archaeological antecedents of bean agriculture. > Shouldn't we also expect this for corn and squash? The bear derivation seems a bit farfetched.. maybe some terms for Bear are borrowed (the hunch- ones) but Bear is holoarctic, and the Cult of Bear goes back at least to Neanderthal times in Europe. I would think that any term for some words like 'water', 'sun', 'man' and 'bear' would be very old. If there is good evidence of borrowing, something very odd happened historically (or PREhistorically). Speaking of which, Bear is a classic candidate for circumlocution, due to its spiritual significance. As in OP, wathabe, 'something black' for bear. IO has some good examples of circumlocution for Bear and other game animals preserved in old stories.. 'The Sister and the Brother' was a good example of a way that was used to pass on such circumlocution, and IO also used "something black" for Bear. -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From ioway at earthlink.net Tue Feb 27 01:55:31 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 18:55:31 -0700 Subject: bear, acorn Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Richard L. Dieterle wrote: > > > I wonder if anyone can answer this: which came first, the bear or the acorn? Is > > the bear the "acorn-eater", or is the acorn "bear-food"? Some material > > (Winnebago unless otherwise stated): > > > > hujera acorn [Foster] > > huc, huj, hunjra acorn [Gatschet] > > huNc bear [Marino-Radin, contemporary Hocak] > > hunc bear [Radin] > > > Ofo: uthi bear [Dorsey] > > Biloxi: oNt'i, oNdi bear [Dorsey] > > Biloxi: anyaN, udi acorn [Dorsey] > > I don't recall all the details, but the 'acorn' set is basically oral, > while the '(black)bear' set is nasal. The 'bear' set is widely replaced > by forms meaning 'the black one' in Mississippi Valley Siouan, cf. wasabe > in Omaha-Ponca. The 'acorn' set is somewhat irregular. The Omaha-Ponca > correspondent is bu'de. The two sets are not obviously related. > > JEK Interestingly, IO is bu'je .. which is also slang for the head of the penis.. which I guess does look like an acorn ...of course there was a trickster story that had him putting his penis under a log to get at a chipmunk that was taunting the size of his equipment.. the chipmunk bit off the member bit by bit, each bit becoming a different plant, and the head became an acorn! -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From ioway at earthlink.net Tue Feb 27 01:59:17 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 18:59:17 -0700 Subject: bear, acorn Message-ID: Also, can anyone make sense of the Bear terms.. in IO, we have wathewe (the black one) only in a hunting-teaching song (Sister and Brother).. while the terms are variously mahto or munje (and variants of each).. I tend to see mahto as Ursus arctos (Ursus horribilis etc) and the 'older' term, while munje is Ursus americanus.. and there is a clan name that means Black Bear, tunap'in. Any theories on these various terms? Lance Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Richard L. Dieterle wrote: > > > I wonder if anyone can answer this: which came first, the bear or the acorn? Is > > the bear the "acorn-eater", or is the acorn "bear-food"? Some material > > (Winnebago unless otherwise stated): > > > > hujera acorn [Foster] > > huc, huj, hunjra acorn [Gatschet] > > huNc bear [Marino-Radin, contemporary Hocak] > > hunc bear [Radin] > > > Ofo: uthi bear [Dorsey] > > Biloxi: oNt'i, oNdi bear [Dorsey] > > Biloxi: anyaN, udi acorn [Dorsey] > > I don't recall all the details, but the 'acorn' set is basically oral, > while the '(black)bear' set is nasal. The 'bear' set is widely replaced > by forms meaning 'the black one' in Mississippi Valley Siouan, cf. wasabe > in Omaha-Ponca. The 'acorn' set is somewhat irregular. The Omaha-Ponca > correspondent is bu'de. The two sets are not obviously related. > > JEK -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Feb 27 05:33:29 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:33:29 -0700 Subject: bear, acorn In-Reply-To: <3A9B0912.991ADB8@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > Interestingly, IO is bu'je .. which is also slang for the head of the > penis.. which I guess does look like an acorn ...of course there was a > trickster story that had him putting his penis under a log to get at a > chipmunk that was taunting the size of his equipment.. the chipmunk bit > off the member bit by bit, each bit becoming a different plant, and the > head became an acorn! I think it was Dick Carter who told the rest of the CSD group that this glans = acorn was a common trope (not just in Siouan languages). The story of Trickster and Chipmunk is also in the Winnebago and Omaha-Ponca versions of the Trickster cycle. Though Dorsey's Omaha-Ponca version is a bit truncated (no pun intended) in detail and a good deal of it is in Latin. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Feb 27 05:47:29 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:47:29 -0700 Subject: bear, acorn In-Reply-To: <3A9B09F4.E27F9751@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > wathewe (the black one) This looks right to me. > mahto Should be something like maNtho 'grizzly bear' (Definitely Ursus arctos - I couldn't remember it. Thanks for correcting me; U. horribilis is now considered conspecific with the Eurasian brown bear U. arctos, at least at the somewhat popular level of reference in that field that I frequent.) > munje Or muNj^e 'black bear' (U. americanus) or at least that's the impression I had from the sources the CSD used. This is the correspondent of huNuNc^ in Winnebago, though the initial sounds don't match. Or, in short, this is the term that seems to be of Uto-Aztecan origin in Siouan. > I tend to see mahto as Ursus arctos (Ursus horribilis etc) and the > 'older' term, while munje is Ursus americanus.. and there is a clan name > that means Black Bear, ... > tunap'in The naNp?iN part is presumably 'to wear around the neck'. I'm not sure about the "tu" (thu? i.e., with aspirated t, not theta). JEK From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Tue Feb 27 09:30:24 2001 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 03:30:24 -0600 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 1:38 AM Subject: Re: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN > Without reiterating the details, it's interesting that you get somewhat > different answers from different individuals - different also from others > elsewhere at other times. PW appears more in line with "traditional > knowledge" among Siouanists, but BL's views show that Siouanists should > beware trying to apply historical data in modern situations. > > There are various techniques for working with ethnotaxonymy. The one > example that comes to mind is that one can investigate classifications by > using possible superordinate terms in referring back to an example in the > immediate context, e.g., in English: > > That tarantula is one ugly !spider/?bug/*animal/creature! > > We had to put a wire cover on the chicken coop to protect them from eagles > and other birds/animals/?creatures like that. > > This is an iguana. A lizzard/*bug/creature like that is fairly common > around here. > > I think you usually get better results with tests like this than by asking > people to classify things themselves, especially if there's a competing > system (like the Linnaean one or the English one) in the way. Thanks for the suggestions on eliciting taxonomies. > It's also interesting to notice the differences in gloss between the > "progressive" and the non-progressive examples' glosses > > > On Sun, 25 Feb 2001, Kathleen Shea wrote: > > > a~'b(a) akha' ma~xpi'i (AN'ba akHa' maNxpi'i.) 'The day is cloudy.' (PW > > says this is like a warning, i.e. to take a coat.) > > a~'b(a) akha' ma~xpi' akha' (AN'ba akHa' maNxpi' akHa'.) 'It's cloudy out > > there, here.' (PW says that it's as though you > > just noticed or just stepped outside and noticed.) > > > a~'ba the kke'dha (AN'ba tHe ke'tha.) 'It's clear; today is clear.' > > a~ba' akha kke'dha akha (ANba' akHa ke'tha akHa.) 'It's clear out there.' > > (just noticed) > Yes, but the examples where the auxiliary akha is present after the verb (ma~xpi 'be cloudy'; kkedha 'be clear') Dhegihanists usually call "progressive," when they seem to me to be sudden, perhaps "momentaneous" in aspect. (At least it's a suddenly perceived state on the part of the speaker.) Kathy From cqcq at compuserve.com Tue Feb 27 14:12:19 2001 From: cqcq at compuserve.com (Carolyn) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:12:19 -0500 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN Message-ID: Kathy: Regarding the data you report below, could it be that the akHa "continuative' endings occur when the speaker is in the presence of the weather, that is, when he/she steps outside. The references to the weather spoken from indoors---such as the "i.e. take a coat" ones--occur when the speaker is not in the presence of the weather. I like this better than the "momentaneous" explanation. I haven't followed your entire discussion, so you'll have to excuse me if I've repeated something someone else has mentioned. Carolyn > > On Sun, 25 Feb 2001, Kathleen Shea wrote: > > > a~'b(a) akha' ma~xpi'i (AN'ba akHa' maNxpi'i.) 'The day is cloudy.' (PW > > says this is like a warning, i.e. to take a coat.) > > a~'b(a) akha' ma~xpi' akha' (AN'ba akHa' maNxpi' akHa'.) 'It's cloudy out > > there, here.' (PW says that it's as though you > > just noticed or just stepped outside and noticed.) > > > a~'ba the kke'dha (AN'ba tHe ke'tha.) 'It's clear; today is clear.' > > a~ba' akha kke'dha akha (ANba' akHa ke'tha akHa.) 'It's clear out there.' > > (just noticed) > Yes, but the examples where the auxiliary akha is present after the verb (ma~xpi 'be cloudy'; kkedha 'be clear') Dhegihanists usually call "progressive," when they seem to me to be sudden, perhaps "momentaneous" in aspect. (At least it's a suddenly perceived state on the part of the speaker.) Kathy < Dr. Carolyn Quintero, President Inter Lingua, Inc. 1711 East 15th Street Tulsa OK 74104-4608 U.S.A. Telephone (office): +1 918 743 2424 Fax (office): +1 918 743 1347 Cell phone: +1 918 671 4545 Email (personal): cqcq at compuserve.com Email (office): ilinc at ionet.net From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Tue Feb 27 14:57:31 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:57:31 -0600 Subject: Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences Message-ID: > Of course, YUMAN Beans! All my careful wording in vain! :-( Bob From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Tue Feb 27 15:05:24 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:05:24 -0600 Subject: Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences Message-ID: > Yes, and why would one borrow a term for 'black bear'? They tend to be tabooed in many cultures (including many Indo-European ones: in Slavic 'bear' is 'honey eater' or 'the brown one'). Miner once speculated that maybe it was because they walked on their hind legs sometimes -- or at least stood up on them. He found it tabooed in Menomini and maybe some other Algonquian. It's borrowed in Comanche from Osage. It's obviously been replaced with "the black one" in Dhegiha. > I'm not sure how far south Ursus (Euarctos) americanus (or Ursus > horribilis (?), either) ranges. And didn't you (Bob) just mention to me > in some context that Jane Hill thought UA might well originate much > further south than previously thought? Her current hypothesis is that they migrated north, not south. We know that the corn and beans (maybe some squashes) come from Mexico too. Bob From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Tue Feb 27 15:14:22 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:14:22 -0600 Subject: Bean/Bear/Circumlocution Message-ID: > The bear derivation seems a bit farfetched.. maybe some terms for Bear are borrowed (the hunch- ones) but Bear is holoarctic, and the Cult of Bear goes back at least to Neanderthal times in Europe. Sorry, it's only the hute/huNje/huuNc and the derived wa- or wi- plus *huNte > muNte/oNti/muNje, etc. that I'm talking about coming from UA languages. The grizzly terms are strange, but seemingly native. There was presumably a native term for the smaller, black bear everywhere, but, as Lance and I have both said, they tend to be replaced by taboo. Bob From ccpp at cetlink.net Tue Feb 27 15:35:03 2001 From: ccpp at cetlink.net (Catawba Cultural Center) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:35:03 -0500 Subject: Stars, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Going back to a discussion about a week ago of "heavenly" things, Dr. Rudes and I discussed the terms in Catawba. This is a list of words, phrases we compiled: Sky: wa:pit (accenton a:) Cloud: namuN? (accent on uN) Air: ye (also means wind) Heaven: himbare: (accent on i) (see below regarding this word) incidentally, we use "himba" for "yes" Star: wa:pidnu: (accent on i) Comet, meteor, shooting star: ukni: (accent on u) (Comet, metaphoric:wa:pidnu: tusa? [accent on i of first word and u of second word], literally, star-tail) Moon, sun: nuNti: (accent on i) (sometimes when Catawbas want to be very specific about Moon, they say nu~ti wic^awa, Night Sun) Milky Way: yiNwe yaN (accent on iN of first word; literally, dead people's road) Rainbow: nami: (accent on the a) Regarding himbare:, the only sources of /b/ or the cluster /mb/ in Catawba are: (a) assimilation to a neighboring voiced consonant, (b) an onomatopoeic word, or (c) partial or complete denasalization of /m/ next to oral vowels. I think the /mb/ in this word comes from (c), and that the word may have originally entered Catawba from German Himmel. Note that the earliest missionaries in the central Carolinas were the Swiss Palatine (who settled in Tuscarora territory), the Moravians (who settled in Winston-Salem), and the United Brethern (Quakers) (who founded Greensboro). I think the Catawba word may just be a nativization (with the indicative suffix -re:) of the German word, with later partial denasalization of the /m/. It would be interesting to look for other German loan words among other words referring to aspects of Christianity. We have many words that have the /mb/ occuring in words, phrases for "shoot", "sleep", "bad", "brother" examples of which are too numerous to put in this list here, but probably for the reasons (a), (b), and (c) mentioned above by Dr. Rudes. Note that the Catawba word for moon, sun is essentially identical to the Cherokee word for sun (nvte), so one borrowed from the other, but it is not clear which is the source and which borrowed the word. There are of course many more. Catawbas could be very precise and descriptive, which what I enjoy about working with them and their language. Claudia Catawba Cultural Preservation Project From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Feb 27 16:13:40 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:13:40 -0700 Subject: Dhegiha Progressive (Re: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN) In-Reply-To: <005301c0a09f$ea8b0f00$3609ed81@9afl3> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Kathleen Shea wrote: > > > On Sun, 25 Feb 2001, Kathleen Shea wrote: > > > > > a~'b(a) akha' ma~xpi'i (AN'ba akHa' maNxpi'i.) 'The day is cloudy.' > (PW > > > says this is like a warning, i.e. to take a coat.) > > > a~'b(a) akha' ma~xpi' akha' (AN'ba akHa' maNxpi' akHa'.) 'It's cloudy > out > > > there, here.' (PW says that it's as though you > > > just noticed or just stepped outside and noticed.) > > > > > a~'ba the kke'dha (AN'ba tHe ke'tha.) 'It's clear; today is clear.' > > > a~ba' akha kke'dha akha (ANba' akHa ke'tha akHa.) 'It's clear out > there.' > > > (just noticed) > > > Yes, but the examples where the auxiliary akha is present after the verb > (ma~xpi 'be cloudy'; kkedha 'be clear') Dhegihanists usually call > "progressive," when they seem to me to be sudden, perhaps "momentaneous" in > aspect. (At least it's a suddenly perceived state on the part of the > speaker.) The perception may be sudden, but the difference seems to be that in these examples the condition of the weather is background to the person being outside and perhaps noticing the weather (the thread of the discourse), whereas in the others it is the main thread of the discourse. At least that's the way I interpret the contextualization that PW offers. That analysis is also typical of the opposition between imperfective and perfective in discourse-based analyses of their functions. It would be interesting to know how to say '(In the evening) it got cloudy.' (vs. 'In the evening it was cloudy.') or 'It kept clouding up (and then clearing).' or 'Suddenly it was cloudy (or clouded up).' JEK From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Tue Feb 27 19:16:55 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:16:55 -0600 Subject: Dhegiha Progressive (Re: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN) Message-ID: Well, the progressive business plus it's use with the future, etc. are things that Kathy ought to be planning on covering in her dissertation, so please feel free to keep on feeding her questions. I certainly didn't get a complete picture in my Kaw elicitations back in the '70's. Bob > The perception may be sudden, but the difference seems to be that in these > examples the condition of the weather is background to the person being > outside and perhaps noticing the weather (the thread of the discourse), > whereas in the others it is the main thread of the discourse. At least > that's the way I interpret the contextualization that PW offers. That > analysis is also typical of the opposition between imperfective and > perfective in discourse-based analyses of their functions. > > It would be interesting to know how to say '(In the evening) it got > cloudy.' (vs. 'In the evening it was cloudy.') or 'It kept clouding > up (and then clearing).' or 'Suddenly it was cloudy (or clouded up).' > > JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Feb 27 20:10:57 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:10:57 -0700 Subject: Dhegiha Progressive (Re: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN) In-Reply-To: <3A9BFD27.2090700@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, RLR wrote: > Well, the progressive business plus it's use with the future, etc. are > things that Kathy ought to be planning on covering in her dissertation, > so please feel free to keep on feeding her questions. I certainly didn't > get a complete picture in my Kaw elicitations back in the '70's. > > It would be interesting to know how to say '(In the evening) it got > > cloudy.' (vs. 'In the evening it was cloudy.') or 'It kept clouding > > up (and then clearing).' or 'Suddenly it was cloudy (or clouded up).' These questions were cleverly [I hope] designed to elicit non-progressives, or, specifically, 'suddenly' forms. You can work up to those with 'push' or 'shove' examples, too, or 'begin/start to', since the same general set of constructions are used in inceptives and 'suddenly' (aorist?) sentences. Sometime of the sentences are iteratives. Essentially the same constructions are used in sentences involving 'put/place/set/lay/stand' plus some object. And while I'm at it, there are an incredible number of uninvestigated coverbal constructions with motion verbs (pass by, set out), transitive motion verbs (bring, send, accompany, haul, etc.). I was able just using dictionaries and Dorsey's texts to find several motion verb + motion verb patterns that weren't listed in Taylor's summary of MV Siouan motion verbs in IJAL about 25 years ago. My suspicion is that these sorts of questions would be interesting in any Siouan language, not just Dhegiha. The Dakota progressives are a bit simpler in formation than those in Dhegiha, but I'm not aware of any discussions of them outside of - I think - Boas & Deloria. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 28 07:03:47 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:03:47 -0700 Subject: Comparison with PUA 'blue'/'black' In-Reply-To: <3A9AC650.7040604@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: I said I'd provide the Proto-Uto-Aztecan form for 'blue'. This is from a PUA list prepared by the late Wick Miller. It turns out that the comparison is a bit more complex than I remembered, and therefore more dubious. PSi *sap(e) 'black' cf. PUA *sak 'blue' (Miller # 50) PSi *hto(ho) 'grue' cf. PUA *tu, tuhu 'black' (Miller # 45a) Notice that the glosses are reversed. I assume any connection would be a matter of loans one direction or another. Note, however, that the Siouan sets, and I presume the UA sets can be regularly reconstructed, so this would have to be a very old pair of loans. I don't have any mechanism in mind to account for a reversal of the glosses for these two colors, though both are dark colors, and fairly basic ones in the development of color system complexity. All things considered, it seems easier to think of this comparison as reflected some sort of coincidence. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 28 07:19:57 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:19:57 -0700 Subject: Distant kins & -shit- :-) In-Reply-To: <20010222211828.21742.qmail@web123.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Constantine Xmelnitski wrote: > I have three questions on Siouan kinship terms. I've been meaning to supply the reference for a comprehensive reference on Siouan kinship systems: Lesser, Alexander. 1958. Siouan Kinship. Ph.D. DIssertation, Columbia Unversity. I don't seem to have a DAI number. This was based on fieldwork in the late 1920s plus publications availble at the time of writing, and published long after it was written. There is also a comprehensive analysis of Siouan kinship terms by G.H. Matthews. I believe it appeared in American Anthropologist, but I've misplaced the reference. From soup at vm.inext.cz Wed Feb 28 09:52:49 2001 From: soup at vm.inext.cz (SOUP) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 10:52:49 +0100 Subject: Bear (Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences) Message-ID: On 27 Feb 2001, Robert Rankin wrote: > They tend to be tabooed in many cultures (including many Indo-European > ones: in Slavic 'bear' is 'honey eater' or 'the brown one'). Yes, in Czech - the westernmost Slavic language - bear is called medve^d, where "med" = "honey" and "ve^d" = "the one who knows of". It is said that bear was considered so sacred or scary that the old Slavs didn't dare to speak up its real name and thus used a byname for it (which makes me wonder what the original name could have been). Jan From ioway at earthlink.net Wed Feb 28 13:16:25 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 06:16:25 -0700 Subject: Bear (Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences) Message-ID: Yes, to use a descriptive name rather than THE name is circumlocution (relates to how a bear walks around a bush before crapping as my dad says). Also even the word "bear" I think comes from the Germanic root that means "the brown [one]". In Ioway examples of this circulocution is not only "wathewe", but also "no hair on the seat" "big foot" "big tracks" all of which in one story were used to infuriate the bear. One of the best examples I have seen describing this "talking around" the real name of the Bear (and other powerful and spiritually dangerous animals) was in the book on the Koyukon, "Make Prayers to the Raven : A Koyukon View of the Northern Forest" by Richard K. Nelson. It relates to the relationship between the hunter and the hunted, and the fact the Bear is so much like the human being, frighteningly so when it is skinned. I am Bear Clan so all this is fascinating to me. Lance SOUP wrote: > On 27 Feb 2001, Robert Rankin wrote: > > > They tend to be tabooed in many cultures (including many Indo-European > > ones: in Slavic 'bear' is 'honey eater' or 'the brown one'). > > Yes, in Czech - the westernmost Slavic language - bear is called medve^d, > where "med" = "honey" and "ve^d" = "the one who knows of". It is said that > bear was considered so sacred or scary that the old Slavs didn't dare to > speak up its real name and thus used a byname for it (which makes me wonder > what the original name could have been). > > Jan -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From ioway at earthlink.net Wed Feb 28 14:32:07 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:32:07 -0700 Subject: Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences Message-ID: You guys may already know about it, but for those who may not-- I found a wonderful resource on the web that I would like to share with the group, The Short Encyclopedia of Hotcâk (Winnebago) Myth, Legend, and Folklore, by Richard L. Dieterle, editor and compiler (http://members.nbci.com/diete003/) All kinds of really neat stuff here, even texts from Dorsey, such as: http://members.nbci.com/diete003/ho.HotcTxtFatalHouse.html Good stuff Maynard! -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From ioway at earthlink.net Wed Feb 28 14:35:01 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:35:01 -0700 Subject: Online Hocak Encyclopedia and Texts Message-ID: > You guys may already know about it, but for those who may not-- > > I found a wonderful resource on the web that I would like to share with the group, > The Short Encyclopedia of Hotcâk (Winnebago) Myth, Legend, and Folklore, by > Richard L. Dieterle, editor and compiler (http://members.nbci.com/diete003/) > > All kinds of really neat stuff here, even texts from Dorsey, such as: > > http://members.nbci.com/diete003/ho.HotcTxtFatalHouse.html > > Good stuff Maynard! > > -- > Lance Michael Foster > Email: ioway at earthlink.net > http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway > ------------------------- > Native Nations Press, > 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 > Phone: 505-438-2945 > info at nativenations.com > ------------------------- > NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) > Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Feb 28 15:33:28 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:33:28 GMT Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN In-Reply-To: Message-ID: re Arapaho, I have also presumed, on no evidence at all, that it is a rendering into English of Mah^piya Tho. Am I right or is it from some other Siouan language. Bruce > Actually, I should have written a nasal vowel for the first vowel in the > word for Arapaho since that's what I heard: maNxpi' atHaN. I'll try to > be on the lookout for other examples. JEK Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 28 17:13:03 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:13:03 -0600 Subject: More bears. Message-ID: I went to my sources and retrieved the 'bear' terms we were talking about. The Uto-Aztecan forms are more complicated than I remembered (like John's "black and blue" words). Here are the Siouan and then the UA terms. Crow buusshi' Dakotan hu'te Chiwere muN'je Winneb. huuN'c Biloxi oNti Tutelo mu:Nti Ofo uNthi with its aspirate has become mixed with 'grizzley' (maNtho). Comments: The sound correspondences are not as regular as we would like them to be. A possible prototype here might be *wi-hu:N'te. The prefix is the Siouan animate absolutive and it accounts for those languages in which 'bear' begins with a labial sonorant. There is no uniformity in retention of reflexes of this prefix however. Even Chiwere is split from Winnebago on this feature. Dakotan ought to retain nasalization but does not. In verbs, a w-initial prefix before root-initial h- would collapse to a [p], but not here. So the "bear" root would have been something like *hu:te or *hu:Nte. Now consider these Uto-Aztecan forms: Cora huu'ce?e 'bear' Huichol hu'uce 'bear' Mayo hooso 'bear' (may be contaminated from Spanish oso -- jek) Hopi ho:nawy 'bear' (related to 'badger' term) Luiseno hu'n-wu-t 'bear' (related to 'badger') Tubatul. ?u:nal 'black bear' Cahuilla hu'nal 'badger' Cupeno hu'nal 'badger' S. Paiute yna-N 'badger' Shoshone hunan 'badger' These are mostly from p. 56 of Millers UA Cognate Sets. Some information is from Jane Hill personally. She says the root is *hun-. I really am not qualified to comment on the morphemic breakdown or sound changes in UA. This could just be a "Wanderwort" that is borrowed in all the languages where it is found. Note that the languages nearer to modern Siouan locations tend to have the 'badger' meaning while the 'bear' meaning is found farther afield. Messy. Thanks to Lance for the wa0ewe term from Chiwere; it wasn't in the comparative database. Stoney has wa0aben 'black bear' also, probably a taboo replacement. Bob From egooding at iupui.edu Wed Feb 28 18:28:21 2001 From: egooding at iupui.edu (Erik D. Gooding) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:28:21 -0500 Subject: More bears. In-Reply-To: <3A9D319F.5020209@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: Other Dakotan Bear terms: Santee-Sisseton wah^?aNksica 'black bear' s^ake'haNska 'long claws'/grizzly s^ake'hute 'root nose' Yankton-Yanktonai wah^aNks^ica 'black bear' s^akehute 'grizzly' Assiniboine wah^?aNsicaskana 'White Bear'/grizzly wacHuwiska 'white sided/grizzly owes^icapi 'bad kind' wamaNkamani 'earth walker' makHuska 'white chest' Stoney wasabe 'black animal' oz^iNz^a 'blows through the nose' these were from Parks and DeMallie (1994 AAA talk handout) I got oz^iNz^a 'blows through the nose' for Stoney 'bear' at both Alexis and Morley At 11:13 AM 02/28/2001 -0600, RLR wrote: > >I went to my sources and retrieved the 'bear' terms we were talking >about. The Uto-Aztecan forms are more complicated than I remembered >(like John's "black and blue" words). Here are the Siouan and then the >UA terms. > >Crow >buusshi' >Dakotan > hu'te >Chiwere >muN'je >Winneb. > huuN'c >Biloxi oNti >Tutelo >mu:Nti > >Ofo uNthi with its aspirate has become mixed with 'grizzley' (maNtho). > >Comments: The sound correspondences are not as regular as we would like >them to be. A possible prototype here might be *wi-hu:N'te. The prefix >is the Siouan animate absolutive and it accounts for those languages in >which 'bear' begins with a labial sonorant. There is no uniformity in >retention of reflexes of this prefix however. Even Chiwere is split from >Winnebago on this feature. Dakotan ought to retain nasalization but does >not. In verbs, a w-initial prefix before root-initial h- would collapse >to a [p], but not here. > >So the "bear" root would have been something like *hu:te or *hu:Nte. >Now consider these Uto-Aztecan forms: > >Cora > huu'ce?e 'bear' >Huichol > hu'uce 'bear' >Mayo > hooso 'bear' (may be contaminated from Spanish oso -- jek) >Hopi > ho:nawy 'bear' (related to 'badger' term) >Luiseno > hu'n-wu-t 'bear' (related to 'badger') >Tubatul. ?u:nal 'black bear' >Cahuilla hu'nal 'badger' >Cupeno > hu'nal 'badger' >S. Paiute yna-N 'badger' >Shoshone hunan 'badger' > >These are mostly from p. 56 of Millers UA Cognate Sets. Some information >is from Jane Hill personally. She says the root is *hun-. I really am >not qualified to comment on the morphemic breakdown or sound changes in >UA. This could just be a "Wanderwort" that is borrowed in all the >languages where it is found. Note that the languages nearer to modern >Siouan locations tend to have the 'badger' meaning while the 'bear' >meaning is found farther afield. Messy. > >Thanks to Lance for the wa0ewe term from Chiwere; it wasn't in the >comparative database. Stoney has wa0aben 'black bear' also, probably a >taboo replacement. > >Bob From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 28 18:41:19 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:41:19 -0600 Subject: More bears. Message-ID: Eric has come up with a lot more evidence for the taboo status of 'bear' among Siouan speakers. Several nice euphemisms here. And it looks to me as though the s^ake'hute term with the translation 'root nose' probably involved folk etymology on the part of speakers again. It is true that hu'te is 'stump, base of a tree, etc.' but it is also 'blackbear' as we have seen in many related languages. Folk reanalysis of hute as 'stump' might account for the missing nasalization in Dakotan though. We would expect Dakotan huN'te 'bear'. The term is missing from Buechel under H but can be found under S^ on page 460 without an explicit translation. Bob Erik D. Gooding wrote: > Other Dakotan Bear terms: > Santee-Sisseton > wah^?aNksica 'black bear' > s^ake'haNska 'long claws'/grizzly > s^ake'hute 'root nose' > > Yankton-Yanktonai > wah^aNks^ica 'black bear' > s^akehute 'grizzly' > > Assiniboine > wah^?aNsicaskana 'White Bear'/grizzly > wacHuwiska 'white sided/grizzly > owes^icapi 'bad kind' > wamaNkamani 'earth walker' > makHuska 'white chest' > > Stoney > wasabe 'black animal' > oz^iNz^a 'blows through the nose' > > these were from Parks and DeMallie (1994 AAA talk handout) > > I got oz^iNz^a 'blows through the nose' for Stoney 'bear' at both Alexis > and Morley > From egooding at iupui.edu Wed Feb 28 20:05:12 2001 From: egooding at iupui.edu (Erik D. Gooding) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:05:12 -0500 Subject: More bears. In-Reply-To: <3A9D464F.3070406@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: Let me add the terms for Bear in Lakota ritual langauge, hunuNp, hunuNpa, and hunuNpakaN, all variants of "two legs". What about lions and tigers? (that's me playing the straight man for someone else) At 12:41 PM 02/28/2001 -0600, RLR wrote: >Eric has come up with a lot more evidence for the taboo status of 'bear' >among Siouan speakers. Several nice euphemisms here. And it looks to me >as though the s^ake'hute term with the translation 'root nose' probably >involved folk etymology on the part of speakers again. It is true that >hu'te is 'stump, base of a tree, etc.' but it is also 'blackbear' as we >have seen in many related languages. Folk reanalysis of hute as 'stump' >might account for the missing nasalization in Dakotan though. We would >expect Dakotan huN'te 'bear'. The term is missing from Buechel under H >but can be found under S^ on page 460 without an explicit translation. > >Bob > >Erik D. Gooding wrote: > >> Other Dakotan Bear terms: >> Santee-Sisseton >> wah^?aNksica 'black bear' >> s^ake'haNska 'long claws'/grizzly >> s^ake'hute 'root nose' >> >> Yankton-Yanktonai >> wah^aNks^ica 'black bear' >> s^akehute 'grizzly' >> >> Assiniboine >> wah^?aNsicaskana 'White Bear'/grizzly >> wacHuwiska 'white sided/grizzly >> owes^icapi 'bad kind' >> wamaNkamani 'earth walker' >> makHuska 'white chest' >> >> Stoney >> wasabe 'black animal' >> oz^iNz^a 'blows through the nose' >> >> these were from Parks and DeMallie (1994 AAA talk handout) >> >> I got oz^iNz^a 'blows through the nose' for Stoney 'bear' at both Alexis >> and Morley >> From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 28 21:11:18 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:11:18 -0600 Subject: More bears. Message-ID: > What about lions and tigers? (that's me playing the straight man for > someone else) Hmm, good question. All I know is 'elephant' in Kaw, which is wakkaNda xoje-ttaNga 'great gray god'. B. From ccpp at cetlink.net Wed Feb 28 21:22:01 2001 From: ccpp at cetlink.net (Catawba Cultural Center) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:22:01 -0500 Subject: More bears. In-Reply-To: <3A9D319F.5020209@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: In Catawba, "bear" is "nime~?" (where ? represents a glottal stop). This is the black bear; I don't think there were any other kind in this part of the country (SE). There isn't a "taboo" with this term, but there are examples of descriptive terms for certain animals. Some have older forms but others just descriptive ones where the older form may have been forgotten. The word for alligator means "one (who is) terrible", "dape~hi:yi~", rabbit "one (who) sits", "dabawa~?", chipmunk "one (whose) back (is) scratched/scraped/spotted" de:pendata:ks'uksu Can we not trace the English word 'bear', or German "Baer"(a umlaut) back to the Indo-European "bheros", 'brown animal' also the same root for 'beaver'? How does E "beaver" and G "Biber" relate to the Latin word "fiber"? I'm curious about the etymology; isn't there a taboo to be found here too? -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of RLR Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 12:13 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: More bears. I went to my sources and retrieved the 'bear' terms we were talking about. The Uto-Aztecan forms are more complicated than I remembered (like John's "black and blue" words). Here are the Siouan and then the UA terms. Crow buusshi' Dakotan hu'te Chiwere muN'je Winneb. huuN'c Biloxi oNti Tutelo mu:Nti Ofo uNthi with its aspirate has become mixed with 'grizzley' (maNtho). Comments: The sound correspondences are not as regular as we would like them to be. A possible prototype here might be *wi-hu:N'te. The prefix is the Siouan animate absolutive and it accounts for those languages in which 'bear' begins with a labial sonorant. There is no uniformity in retention of reflexes of this prefix however. Even Chiwere is split from Winnebago on this feature. Dakotan ought to retain nasalization but does not. In verbs, a w-initial prefix before root-initial h- would collapse to a [p], but not here. So the "bear" root would have been something like *hu:te or *hu:Nte. Now consider these Uto-Aztecan forms: Cora huu'ce?e 'bear' Huichol hu'uce 'bear' Mayo hooso 'bear' (may be contaminated from Spanish oso -- jek) Hopi ho:nawy 'bear' (related to 'badger' term) Luiseno hu'n-wu-t 'bear' (related to 'badger') Tubatul. ?u:nal 'black bear' Cahuilla hu'nal 'badger' Cupeno hu'nal 'badger' S. Paiute yna-N 'badger' Shoshone hunan 'badger' These are mostly from p. 56 of Millers UA Cognate Sets. Some information is from Jane Hill personally. She says the root is *hun-. I really am not qualified to comment on the morphemic breakdown or sound changes in UA. This could just be a "Wanderwort" that is borrowed in all the languages where it is found. Note that the languages nearer to modern Siouan locations tend to have the 'badger' meaning while the 'bear' meaning is found farther afield. Messy. Thanks to Lance for the wa0ewe term from Chiwere; it wasn't in the comparative database. Stoney has wa0aben 'black bear' also, probably a taboo replacement. Bob From shanwest at uvic.ca Wed Feb 28 21:45:31 2001 From: shanwest at uvic.ca (Shannon West) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:45:31 -0800 Subject: More bears. In-Reply-To: <4.1.20010228131724.00a83ed0@imap1.iupui.edu> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of Erik D. Gooding > Sent: February 28, 2001 10:28 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu; siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: More bears. > > > Other Dakotan Bear terms: > Assiniboine > wah^?aNsicaskana 'White Bear'/grizzly > wacHuwiska 'white sided/grizzly > owes^icapi 'bad kind' > wamaNkamani 'earth walker' > makHuska 'white chest' I've got waxaNksija in Assiniboine. Shannon From egooding at iupui.edu Wed Feb 28 22:49:02 2001 From: egooding at iupui.edu (Erik D. Gooding) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:49:02 -0500 Subject: More bears. In-Reply-To: <3A9D6976.7090901@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: I was hoping for someone to say "Oh, my!" from the "lions and tigers, and bears, oh, my!" of my youth. At 03:11 PM 02/28/2001 -0600, RLR wrote: >> What about lions and tigers? (that's me playing the straight man for >> someone else) > >Hmm, good question. All I know is 'elephant' in Kaw, which is wakkaNda >xoje-ttaNga 'great gray god'. > >B. From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 28 22:55:44 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:55:44 -0600 Subject: More bears. Message-ID: > I was hoping for someone to say "Oh, my!" from the "lions and tigers, and bears, oh, my!" of my youth. We must have had different youths. :-) I was thinking all the while of "Animal Crackers in my Soup!" and the little tune that goes with it. B. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 28 23:34:10 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:34:10 -0700 Subject: Stem Truncation in Dhegiha (was Re: More bears) In-Reply-To: <4.1.20010228150236.00a83b40@imap1.iupui.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Erik D. Gooding wrote: > What about lions and tigers? (that's me playing the straight man for > someone else) Well, Omaha-Ponca iNgdhaNsiNsnede 'mountain lion' is interesting in providing two examples in one word of stem truncation, in which a longer stem is truncated in a compound. I've already mentioned this in passing, including truncation in kin terms, where it appears to be diminutive in origin. This word is iNgdhaN(ge) 'cat' + siN(de) 'tail' + snede 'long'. Comparable examples are s^aNttaNga 'wolf' with s^aN(ge) 'dog' ('horse in historical usage) and waz^iNttu 'bluebird' with waz^iN(ga) '(small) bird'. One way to analyze this is as a Dhegiha implementation of the C-final stem pattern that some stems (C-final ones) show in Dakotan, e.g., s^aN < *s^aNk < s^aNge, rather than direct truncation. Dhegiha languages tend to avoid C-final forms in independent words and have a greatly reduced cluster inventory, so neither *siNt or s^aNk nor *siNtsnede or *s^aNkttaNga would be expected. Note that Omaha, however, does have a tendency to reduce word final CV sequences to Ch[V-voiceless] which comes across as Ch#. This is especially frequent with the articles akha and khe. But it also occurs with the article ama and the homonophonous quotative. Medially you also get niks^iNga for nikkas^iNga 'person', ttapska for ttappuska 'student; school', and so on. I'm not positive what the conditioning is, but it looks like something along the lines of C__# (in enclitics) and C__C[voiceless] (medially). Incidentally, as long as we're looking at obscure borrowings, that 'student, school' word is also attested in Pawnee. The origin is unknown. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 28 23:35:57 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:35:57 -0700 Subject: More bears. In-Reply-To: <3A9D6976.7090901@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, RLR wrote: > > What about lions and tigers? (that's me playing the straight man for > > someone else) > > Hmm, good question. All I know is 'elephant' in Kaw, which is wakkaNda > xoje-ttaNga 'great gray god'. Omaha has nitta ttaNga 'big beast' for 'lion'. JEK From Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp Fri Feb 2 05:18:01 2001 From: Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp (Mike Morgan) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:18:01 +0900 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?2_sentences_from=81@Buechel?= Message-ID: Can anyone supply me with the Lakota for the following passages in Buechels A Grammar of Lakota (My copy is defective in these spots). p. 302 1/3 the way down: We believed him to be the new teacher. I have "[....]wicak'iya wanx lecala hi kinx he e keunxkecinxpi." p. 303 1/3 the way down. I know his uncle to be an honorable man. I have "Leksxitku kinx wicxasxa [.....]" Thanks to whoever can supply the blank spots (just the Lakota). Mike Morgan Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp From mosind at yahoo.com Fri Feb 2 18:03:18 2001 From: mosind at yahoo.com (Constantine Xmelnitski) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:03:18 -0800 Subject: 2 sentences from Buechel Message-ID: >Can anyone supply me with the Lakota for the following passages in Buechels >A Grammar of Lakota (My copy is defective in these spots). > >p. 302 1/3 the way down: >We believed him to be the new teacher. >I have "[....]wicak'iya wanx lecala hi kinx he e keunxkecinxpi." Waya'wa-wic(h)akhiya wan... > >p. 303 1/3 the way down. >I know his uncle to be an honorable man. >I have "Leksxitku kinx wicxasxa [.....]" Lekshitku kin wichasha - owo'txanla kin he'c(h)a c(h)a slolwa'ye. __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp Fri Feb 2 18:18:19 2001 From: Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp (Mike Morgan) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 03:18:19 +0900 Subject: 2 sentences from Buechel Message-ID: Thanks for the help! MWM From ioway at earthlink.net Tue Feb 13 02:01:07 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 19:01:07 -0700 Subject: Self-Intro New Member Message-ID: Hi I thought I would introduce myself, as I just joined the list. Thanks John K for letting me know about it. I know a couple of you (Hi Robert R, and the indefatigable and knowledgable Jimm GT) and have heard of some of the others (I look forward to seeing Louann F's book on the Chiwere.. does Lori know?) I am a member of the Iowa Tribe of Kansas and Nebraska. I also have ancestors among the Otoe, Omaha, Sauk, and Yankton. My particular interests are Chiwere and comparative Siouan that helps me get a handle on it. My grandmother knew only a little of the language, and many years ago, when I was taking a NA linguistics class for my undergrad in Anthro from Timothy Montler at U Montana (he was into Salish as I recall) I found Jimm and Lila W-Robinson's work on IOM. I must commend Jimm, for in those days few were interested, and he took the time and effort. He should never be forgotten for that. I have a BA in Anthro and Native American Studies from U Montana, and an MA in Anthro from Iowa State. I have been studying Chiwere since I was about 20 (I am 40 now), mainly because I was not raised in the Ioway community, but in Montana, among Cheyenne and Blackfeet. One thing I learned was that language is the heart of culture, that without the language, you cannot understand the culture. I did not do my Masters work on linguistics per se, it was more of an old style multifield Anthro approach (the benefits of small universities are that they aren't under such pressure to fit you into a "archaeologist" or "linguist" box.. what I lost in depth I think I gained in breadth). I did my thesis on the Sacred Bundle system of the Ioway, with a focus on using linguistic taxonomy to determine the actual taxonomy of the system rather than the one ascribed to it by collectors and ethnographers. I am not a linguist per se, and have not kept up with the latest. I work as a historical landscape architect in the cultural landscapes program of the National Park Service. My connections to Chiwere are avocational on one level, but deeply personal on another. I am not particularly deep in my interests about the subtleties of phonetics.. language changes, speakers differ, and family dialects often go to war... how do we maintain a language community with these opposing forces? ..it will take some time to get up to speed on some of the terminology I've seen in the archives. I am mainly interested in the language and how it shapes how we think, how it relates to ethnic identity.. and I don't know if this is the place, but the real power of the spoken word in a native sense.. how speaking something creates it in a sense. There is something magical about language.. and I do mean magic in the real sense. I guess that's it for now.. -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From wbgrail at hotmail.com Tue Feb 13 15:03:34 2001 From: wbgrail at hotmail.com (WENDY BRANWELL) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:03:34 -0600 Subject: another self-introduction Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From m.mixco at m.cc.utah.edu Tue Feb 13 19:20:11 2001 From: m.mixco at m.cc.utah.edu (Mauricio Mixco) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:20:11 -0700 Subject: another self-introduction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wendy I wish you all the best in your endeavors M. Mixco From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Tue Feb 13 23:34:15 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:34:15 -0600 Subject: self-introductions Message-ID: Welcome to Lance and to Wendy. The list has been quiet lately. Someone should ask some questions to get things hopping. We (try to) deal with morpho-syntax, phonology, history, bibliography and all sorts of other things. The whole gamut. Bob Rankin From Zylogy at aol.com Wed Feb 14 00:29:37 2001 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:29:37 EST Subject: Siouan, Caddoan, Iroquoian Message-ID: Hi. OK, a question- any feelings on the part of list members concerning Wally Chafe's book speculating on macrogenetic relationship between Siouan, Caddoan, and Iroqoian families? Don't know whether anyone wants to go at larger Greenbergian roadapples, Hokan-Siouan? Must be folks on both sides of the fence, here. Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ioway at earthlink.net Wed Feb 14 14:07:49 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 07:07:49 -0700 Subject: Self-Intro/Chiwere Message-ID: Thanks to everyone for the nice welcome! Mirzayan Armik wrote: >I have been working on morphological and syntactic analysis ofChiwere texts that were recorded by Marsh and Dorsey. I have a couple of things up on our Ioway website you might be interested in. Like all websites, it is a work in progress: 1. Ioway/Chiwere language (with links and greetings): http://www.ioway.org/language/language.html 2. Language Death, the paper by Louanne Furbee. I had a link originally, but then the paper was removed. I put it up to help our tribal members understand that it wasn't just the whiteman's school that caused the loss of our language. It was also tribal factiousness.. we did it to ourselves. If Louanne wants me to take it down, I will, but I hope she puts it up somewhere so I can direct people to it. It's important to know how things really happened: http://www.ioway.org/language/chiweredeath.html 3. Counting in Ioway: http://www.ioway.org/language/numbers.html 4. Colors in Ioway: http://www.ioway.org/language/colors.html 5. Ioway Language Lesson 1 (with sentence analysis and vocabulary): http://www.ioway.org/language/lang1coffee.html 6. Dorsey's text "Rabbit and Grasshoppers" from his original publication (with interlinear translation). I did change the free translation some to make it flow better in modern English: http://www.ioway.org/language/rabbit.html 7. Gordon Marsh's "This Land Here" Otoe text from his original (I purchased the microfilms from the American Philosophical Society), with a bit about Marsh and Whitman, as well as interlinear and free translations. I used his info on his informants, though there is differing info on the tribal affiliations of Julia and Robert Small (Jimm GT can perhaps address this): http://www.ioway.org/language/thisland.html I see there is great discussion on Jiwele vs Chiwere. My impression is that Otoe voiced a lot more than Ioway (Otoe: "taje" "wind" vs Ioway "tache", like Lakota "tate"). The Dorsey "Chiwere/Chikiwere" is, I believe, on the first page of his "Omaha Sociology" with the explanation of their meanings and use. -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Feb 14 15:24:53 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:24:53 GMT Subject: another self-introduction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: To Wendy and Lance Great to hear from you both. Best of luck with everything Bruce Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Feb 14 15:35:27 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:35:27 GMT Subject: Sky and clouds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Siouanists Something has been at the back of my mind for years. In Lakota the word given in dictionaries and elsewhere for 'sky', 'cloud' and 'heaven' is mah^piya. Sometimes also in Lakota prayers the equivalent for 'heaven' or 'sky' is waNkatuya or WaNkal literally 'up there, high up'. Therefore I wonder how to say such a thing as 'there are no clouds in the sky' . There is a verb kaska iyaya 'to clear (of clouds in the sky)' and one sees sentences like, I think, mah^piya ska wan woslal he 'a white cloud stood vertically (in front of them)'. Any ideas. Is this the same in other Siouan languages. Bruce Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From egooding at iupui.edu Wed Feb 14 16:43:46 2001 From: egooding at iupui.edu (Erik D. Gooding) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:43:46 -0500 Subject: Sky and clouds In-Reply-To: <16D6BF527E9@soas.ac.uk> Message-ID: There is a Lakota ritual expression, that means something like "on a cloudless day". It escapes me at the moment. It is a pre-Christian expression. I'll dig around to see if I can find it, unless anyone else has it at hand. Erik At 03:35 PM 02/14/2001 +0000, Bruce Ingham wrote: >Dear Siouanists >Something has been at the back of my mind for years. In Lakota the word > given in dictionaries and elsewhere for 'sky', 'cloud' and 'heaven' is >mah^piya. >Sometimes also in Lakota prayers the equivalent for 'heaven' or 'sky' is >waNkatuya or WaNkal literally 'up there, high up'. Therefore I wonder >how to say such a thing as 'there are no clouds in the sky' . There is a verb > kaska iyaya 'to clear (of clouds in the sky)' and one sees sentences > like, I think, mah^piya ska wan woslal he 'a white cloud stood vertically > (in front of them)'. Any ideas. Is this the same in other Siouan languages. > >Bruce > > > >Dr. Bruce Ingham >Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies >SOAS From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 14 17:12:24 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:12:24 -0600 Subject: Siouan, Caddoan, Iroquoian Message-ID: > Chafe's book speculating on macrogenetic relationship between Siouan, > Caddoan, and Iroqoian families? Don't know whether anyone wants to go at > larger Greenbergian roadapples, Hokan-Siouan? Jess, I did a review of Wally's book in 1981 in IJAL 47:172-178. I have not changed my general view of things much since then. I think Siouan-Yuchi looks quite good, but Caddoan only has two potential pronominal matches and that isn't enough of a paradigm to be very helpful. Iroquoian is even harder for me to justify. I think it is wrong simply to presume the relationship as Mithun does in her 1991 (?) paper in Language on active/stative languages. Nonetheless, I think Wally, Marianne and others have found enough interesting similarities to make the possible relationship worth pursuing further as more comparative work is done and becomes available in Caddoan and Iroquoian. I have said all I have to say about the larger Greenbergian groupings in a review of his book (LIA) that I did for IJAL 58:324-351 in 1992. "Hokan-Siouan" had one known effect. Wick Miller, God rest his soul, used to tell the story of driving across the desert West in the Death Valley area and stopping at a curio shop at the edge of the desert. There, hanging on the wall, was an object for sale that the owner had labeled "Hokan-Siouan cradleboard." Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 14 18:04:42 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:04:42 -0700 Subject: Sky and clouds In-Reply-To: <16D6BF527E9@soas.ac.uk> Message-ID: Warning: For some reason the original post was structured so that replies went to the sender (Bruce) in preference to the list. It's always wise to check to see where your replies to things on lists are going, of course. The list is supposed to be configured to encourage replies to go to the list, by including a REPLY-TO header pointed at the list, but various mailers sending and receiving behavior can thwart this. On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Bruce Ingham wrote: > Something has been at the back of my mind for years. In Lakota the word > given in dictionaries and elsewhere for 'sky', 'cloud' and 'heaven' is mah^piya. This is pretty much the same across Mississippi Valley Siouan, anyway. 'Sky' is usually at least etymologically the plural of 'cloud'. A stem-forming vowel -e- or -a- can occur after the plural before postpositions, etc., cf. maNxpi(y)a- in Dakotan. This said, at the moment sadly I can't recall how this works in Omaha-Ponca! I think 'sky' might be maNxpi, obviously an old CVC + pi plural formation. If this recollection is true, then could be interpreted as a fossilized CVC root form. All modern roots are V-final, except that in some compounds CVCV forms lose the final CV, e.g., s^aNge 'horse' vs. s^aNttaNga 'wolf' (would be s^uN"k"-thaNka in Dakotan), or waz^iNga '(small) bird' vs. waz^iNttu 'bluebird'. A similar pattern of truncation occurs in some diminutivized kinship terms, though it may be of a different origin there, e.g., siz^iN 'dear child' < nisi z^iNga 'little offspring'. I don't remember 'cloud' at all. > Sometimes also in Lakota prayers the equivalent for 'heaven' or 'sky' is > waNkatuya or WaNkal literally 'up there, high up'. Perhaps comparable would be OP maNs^iatta < *maNs^i-a-kta 'tall (uninflected), on high, in the heavens'. > Therefore I wonder how to say such a thing as 'there are no clouds in > the sky'. I'd assume that historically this would be akin to saying 'there are no clouds among the clouds'. In other words, I think the conception of sky was an emptiness populated by clouds, so that clouds were the thing to which attention was directed, leaving no actual term for the emptiness, except in the theological conception of stacked worlds that occurs among Siouan groups as it does elsewhere. It might be relevant that sky is psychologically very different in a grassland from sky peeping between trees in a forest or hanging between mountains in a valley. It seems less a lid and more a vastness. Easterners always comment to me on how weird it seems too see distant rain. However, whatever the etymological basis of the forms, with or without English, French, etc., and Christian influences, this conception may have changed in a given language. The formulation of 'sky' as 'clouds' enters into the compound 'blue-sky-people' for the Arapahoes. > ... and one sees sentences like, I think, mah^piya ska wan woslal he > 'a white cloud stood vertically (in front of them)'. I seem to recall that clouds walk in Omaha-Ponca. JEK From CRudin at wscgate.wsc.edu Wed Feb 14 18:54:11 2001 From: CRudin at wscgate.wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:54:11 -0600 Subject: Sky and clouds Message-ID: >This said, at the moment sadly I can't recall how this works in >Omaha-Ponca! I think 'sky' might be maNxpi, obviously an old CVC + pi >plural formation. ... >I don't remember 'cloud' at all. In Mark Swetland's UmoNhoN Iye of Elizabeth Stabler, 'sky' is maNghe and 'cloud' is maNxpi (slightly re-spelled, of course). So clouds are plural sky? From Rgraczyk at aol.com Wed Feb 14 19:24:39 2001 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:24:39 EST Subject: U.S. President Message-ID: A query: what is the word for 'U.S. President' in your Siouan language? Crow has baa-iila'pxisaahka and Hidatsa has maa-a'arutaahka (in both lgs, indefinite prefix + grandfather). Is this perhaps a pan-Plains phenomenon? Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 14 20:29:29 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:29:29 -0700 Subject: U.S. President In-Reply-To: <9e.1016cfa2.27bc3577@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > A query: what is the word for 'U.S. President' in your Siouan language? Crow > has baa-iila'pxisaahka and Hidatsa has maa-a'arutaahka (in both lgs, > indefinite prefix + grandfather). Is this perhaps a pan-Plains phenomenon? In Omaha-Ponca "President" (and other major government officials) was ittigaN=...dhe 'his/her grandfather' + 'to cause' in Dorsey's time. I don't know if things are more specialized today. The agent was idhadi=...dhe 'his/her father' + 'to cause'. The 'to cause' possessive construction occurs in Dakotan, Omaha-Ponca (all Dhegiha?), and Winnebago with kin terms. I don't recall if it occurs in Ioway-Otoe, too. I suspect from contexts in the Dorsey texts that in OP it marks what might be called ostensive kin, e.g., relations under the pipe dance, or cases like this: what might be called treaty relationships. In Winnebago it's the only construction for kin possession, I think, and is used with an incorporated root 'living' for possession of animals. (Which ties in with 'pet' possession investigations of the late Wick Miller.) Two further Omaha-Ponca examples are e=...dhe 'relative' = 'the aforesaid (or maybe just he/she/it)' + 'to cause' and ikhage=...dhe 'his (not her) friend' + 'to cause'. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 14 20:37:35 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:37:35 -0700 Subject: Sky and clouds In-Reply-To: <001AD80B.C21368@wscgate.wsc.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Catherine Rudin wrote: > >This said, at the moment sadly I can't recall how this works in > >Omaha-Ponca! I think 'sky' might be maNxpi, obviously an old CVC + pi > >plural formation. ... > >I don't remember 'cloud' at all. > > In Mark Swetland's UmoNhoN Iye of Elizabeth Stabler, 'sky' is maNghe and 'cloud' > is maNxpi (slightly re-spelled, of course). So clouds are plural sky? Oops. It appears that I got this backward. I'm not sure it affects the conclusions in general, but it does change the details. 'Clouds' are the salient aspect of 'sky', and 'sky' : 'cloud' is historically something like 'one (expanse of) sky stuff' : 'multiple (bits of) sky stuff'. It would be difficult for me to maintain that maNxpi is the current plural of maNghe, of course, for a number of reasons: the root form canon issues mentioned before, the changes in the form and use of the plural morpheme in OP (=> =i ~ =bi ~ =b acting as plural and proximate), and the present normal use of positional articles (when present) to indicate plurality of inanimate (definite) references. I wonder what the proper articles are for 'clouds' and 'sky'? JEK From CRudin at wscgate.wsc.edu Wed Feb 14 21:06:12 2001 From: CRudin at wscgate.wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:06:12 -0600 Subject: Sky and clouds Message-ID: >I wonder what the proper articles are for 'clouds' and 'sky'? Well, I have a couple of examples of maNxpi khe. We were talking about colors, in particular, 'green' (the usual 'grue' translation problem) and a speaker said: "CHchu. Real green grass coming up. Then we say sky. Ttu. Blue. The sky is blue. MaNxpi khe ttu. Manghe ttu." I asked about the two words he'd used; he clarified maNxpi ='cloud' and maNghe = 'sky' and provided a couple of other colors that clouds could be: The cloud is grey = maNxpi khe xude The cloud is black = maNxpi khe sabe Notice that the speaker first translated "the sky is blue" with maNxpi -- maybe this was just a slip of the tongue, but maybe sky and clouds aren't as clearly distinct from each other as in English. From BARudes at aol.com Wed Feb 14 21:10:00 2001 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:10:00 EST Subject: Siouan, Caddoan, Iroquoian Message-ID: Dear Jess, I once did a thorough examination of Wally's data in support of Siouan-Iroquoian that he published in the American Anthropologist. His method was sloppy because he picked an chose data from Siouan languages arbitrarily and he used internally reconstructed pre-Seneca, rather than Proto-Iroquoian forms for comparison. Of his sets, only about five had any credibility once better data were used. There are some reasonable similarities between Siouan and Iroquoian at the lexical level (perhaps borrowings), but very little at the grammatical level. I would agree with Bob that we need to wait until more comparative work has been done, in particular on the relationship between Catawba, Yuchi and Siouan with one another before we can bring Iroquoian into the picture. Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Zylogy at aol.com Wed Feb 14 22:04:14 2001 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:04:14 EST Subject: Siouan, Caddoan, Iroquoian Message-ID: Thanks. If I'm at all right about structures in languages such as these originating in serialization, there may be very little in common, at least as far as verb roots/stems, much sooner than in other language types. Two "dialects" of Yahgan, for instance, are quite dissimilar lexically. If we go further and assume a prior period of overall dependent marking structure and the jig is up. One full cycle of such shifts, with concomitant mass replacement of lexical items (skewed by form class within each type), and there will be precious little left upon which to grow a putative family tree, except for borrowings, phonosemantic "agnates", and accidental resemblances. Years ago, someone wrote (I don't remember who, but I believe it came out in the 1975 Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences- they had an entire issue given over to origins of language) that a full typological "cycle" took such and such a figure- I think it was on the order of 14000 years or so (I don't remember the exact figure). I also don't know whether or not this was based on some evidence or was pure speculation. In any case it would be interesting to know whether there was any relationship between such a number, typological inversion re verb and noun roots as preferred base forms for higher derivation (plus attrition and replacement), and the usual baseline figure given for the deepest levels of reconstructability (which is either half or a quarter of this figure, if it was more like 25000 years- again I don't remember). I saw for sale, by the way, "Hokan-Siouan" projectile points on a trip through Illinois a couple of years ago. Almost enough to make one "Algic" to the entire concept (ouch!). :-) By the way, what is the state of current work on Yuchi? Will there be a relatively comprehensive dictionary available at any time in the near future (or already?). Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 14 22:19:52 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:19:52 -0600 Subject: Sky and clouds Message-ID: > In Mark Swetland's UmoNhoN Iye of Elizabeth Stabler, 'sky' is maNghe and 'cloud' is maNxpi (slightly re-spelled, of course). So clouds are plural sky? I don't think so, but I'm not certain. I suspect the -pi or -piya that occurs on maNghe to make 'cloud' is just a derivational morpheme of some kind -- not the pluralizer. The forms I'm familiar with have an umlauted [u"] after -p-, not an i. [maxpu"ya]. I would have expected the Dakotan form then to have -pu rather than -pi, but it doesn't seem to, so I'm a little unsure of my ground here. In any event, nothing about this is obvious to me. JGT has Chiwere maNghu or maNghuwe (with [x] variants). That ought to muddy the waters some. Haven't checked Winnebago. Bob From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 14 22:47:37 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:47:37 -0600 Subject: U.S. President and cloud/sky: more. Message-ID: Re 'President': JGT gives Chiwere hiNtugaN hiNye 'their grandfather'. It's a causative construction, as John described. Quapaw has ittikaN dawe 'their grandfather' (the conjugated causative of grandfather < ittikaN de). Kansa has an exact analog of the QU form: iccigo yabe 'they have him for a grandfather' or just 'their grandfather'. (Also w/ the conjugated causative.) And re 'sky, cloud(s)': Quapaw has maNghe 'sky'; moxpi 'cloud(s)' Kansa has maNghe 'sky, "the upper world"' and maxpu" or moxpu" 'cloud(s)'. All of this leads me to speculate that the mysterious Chiwere form for 'sky', maNghu, is from earlier *maNxwu, which would be the outcome in Chiwere of the same form that gives Kansa/Osage maNxpu". My recollection is that the p > w in this context in CH. This would give Quapaw and Omaha-Ponca maNxpi regularly, leaving only the Dakotan /i/ unexplained. Bob ****************************************** Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > > A query: what is the word for 'U.S. President' in your Siouan > language? Crow > has baa-iila'pxisaahka and Hidatsa has maa-a'arutaahka (in both lgs, > indefinite prefix + grandfather). Is this perhaps a pan-Plains > phenomenon? > > Randy From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 14 23:04:43 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:04:43 -0600 Subject: Siouan, Caddoan, Iroquoian Message-ID: > By the way, what is the state of current work on Yuchi? Will there be > a > relatively comprehensive dictionary available at any time in the near > future > (or already?). Write to mslinn at lark.cc.ukans.edu (that's Mary S. Linn) and ask about lexicon. She just defended a grammar of the language as her dissertation. I don't now what her plans for a dict. may be. There is lots of unpublished lexical material by Wagner and by Jim Crawford, the latter in the APS library. Bob From ioway at earthlink.net Wed Feb 14 23:44:25 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:44:25 -0700 Subject: U.S. President Message-ID: IO is Hintuga/Intuga "my/his grandfather", like John put it. The IO "to cause" is -hi suffix. Marsh had "(government) official" as wawayin "one sent" (this could be a messenger or emissary), from Intuga. You can see the -hi also in "Chief", wangegihi, wange (man) gi (towards it, referring to it) to cause (-hi), referring to the authority and leadership of a chief. -Lance Koontz John E wrote: > On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > > A query: what is the word for 'U.S. President' in your Siouan language? Crow > > has baa-iila'pxisaahka and Hidatsa has maa-a'arutaahka (in both lgs, > > indefinite prefix + grandfather). Is this perhaps a pan-Plains phenomenon? > > In Omaha-Ponca "President" (and other major government officials) was > ittigaN=...dhe 'his/her grandfather' + 'to cause' in Dorsey's time. I > don't know if things are more specialized today. The agent was > idhadi=...dhe 'his/her father' + 'to cause'. The 'to cause' possessive > construction occurs in Dakotan, Omaha-Ponca (all Dhegiha?), and Winnebago > with kin terms. I don't recall if it occurs in Ioway-Otoe, too. I > suspect from contexts in the Dorsey texts that in OP it marks what might > be called ostensive kin, e.g., relations under the pipe dance, or cases > like this: what might be called treaty relationships. In Winnebago it's > the only construction for kin possession, I think, and is used with an > incorporated root 'living' for possession of animals. (Which ties in with > 'pet' possession investigations of the late Wick Miller.) Two further > Omaha-Ponca examples are e=...dhe 'relative' = 'the aforesaid (or maybe > just he/she/it)' + 'to cause' and ikhage=...dhe 'his (not her) friend' + > 'to cause'. > > JEK -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From ioway at earthlink.net Wed Feb 14 23:59:45 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:59:45 -0700 Subject: U.S. President and cloud/sky: more. Message-ID: RLR wrote: > > > And re 'sky, cloud(s)': > > Quapaw has maNghe 'sky'; moxpi 'cloud(s)' > > Kansa has maNghe 'sky, "the upper world"' and maxpu" or moxpu" > 'cloud(s)'. > > All of this leads me to speculate that the mysterious Chiwere form for > 'sky', maNghu, is from earlier *maNxwu, which would be the outcome in > Chiwere of the same form that gives Kansa/Osage maNxpu". My recollection > is that the p > w in this context in CH. This would give Quapaw and > Omaha-Ponca maNxpi regularly, leaving only the Dakotan /i/ unexplained. > > Bob > ****************************************** The Iowa chiefs Mahaska, White Cloud, was spelled historically different ways. Together these ways (ex: Monhaska, Monhashka, Mahaska, Mahaskan, JGT Maxu(we)=xga) can reveal some things. As Marsh/Whitman noted, "s" (?Prepalatal sibilant) was changing to (alveolar) "sh".. and JGT noted that even more recently in some family dialects, the s/sh was being realized as "x". Thus JGT has "xga" as "white", but earlier forms were ska/shka, very much like Om/Dak (again correct me if I am off base). Maha = Maxa.. I notice that in endings, often there was variation in realization between "ah" and "eh" and "uh". And English-speakers often ignored nasalization. I think the way it would have been said in the 1830s was something like MaNxa=shka "cloud/cloudy sky/sky"+"white". IO does have another term, kera/kela (I am still deciding whether to go with l or r in my presentation to the learner and I think JGT goes back and forth too), which is glossed "the clear blue sky (at dawn)", a Bear Clan name. "To" is blue, so kela has more to do with clarity.. although for water (and for thinking), bredhe is "clear." IO "maNshi" is high, as in ahemaN'shi = ahe "hill" + maN'shi "high" = mountain. But maN'shi also is related to maNgri(da), "above (as in the sky). Lance -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From jggoodtracks at juno.com Thu Feb 15 04:59:02 2001 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:59:02 -0600 Subject: U.S. President and cloud/sky: more. Message-ID: Bob: The Winnebago via Miner (1984) for Cloud/ Sky is "maaNxi". To be cloudy= "maaNxi'wi". Zeps' Lexicon concurs, adding: "maNxi', sky; clouds (collectively); heaven (R)'. Jimm On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:47:37 -0600 RLR writes: > > And re 'sky, cloud(s)': > > Quapaw has maNghe 'sky'; moxpi 'cloud(s)' > > Kansa has maNghe 'sky, "the upper world"' and maxpu" or moxpu" > 'cloud(s)'. > > All of this leads me to speculate that the mysterious Chiwere form > for > 'sky', maNghu, is from earlier *maNxwu, which would be the outcome > in > Chiwere of the same form that gives Kansa/Osage maNxpu". My > recollection > is that the p > w in this context in CH. This would give Quapaw and > Omaha-Ponca maNxpi regularly, leaving only the Dakotan /i/ > unexplained. > > Bob > ****************************************** > > Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > > > > A query: what is the word for 'U.S. President' in your Siouan > > language? Crow > > has baa-iila'pxisaahka and Hidatsa has maa-a'arutaahka (in both > lgs, > > indefinite prefix + grandfather). Is this perhaps a pan-Plains > > phenomenon? > > > > Randy From jggoodtracks at juno.com Thu Feb 15 13:36:51 2001 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 07:36:51 -0600 Subject: U.S. President and cloud/sky: more. Message-ID: Bob: Also they noted the word for "to be sky blue"= "maNxio'cho". jgt On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:59:02 -0600 Jimm G GoodTracks writes: > Bob: > The Winnebago via Miner (1984) for Cloud/ Sky is "maaNxi". To be > cloudy= > "maaNxi'wi". > Zeps' Lexicon concurs, adding: "maNxi', sky; clouds (collectively); > heaven (R)'. > Jimm > > On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:47:37 -0600 RLR > writes: > > > > And re 'sky, cloud(s)': > > > > Quapaw has maNghe 'sky'; moxpi 'cloud(s)' > > > > Kansa has maNghe 'sky, "the upper world"' and maxpu" or moxpu" > > 'cloud(s)'. > > > > All of this leads me to speculate that the mysterious Chiwere form > > > for > > 'sky', maNghu, is from earlier *maNxwu, which would be the outcome > > > in > > Chiwere of the same form that gives Kansa/Osage maNxpu". My > > recollection > > is that the p > w in this context in CH. This would give Quapaw > and > > Omaha-Ponca maNxpi regularly, leaving only the Dakotan /i/ > > unexplained. > > > > Bob > > ****************************************** > > > > Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > > > > > > A query: what is the word for 'U.S. President' in your Siouan > > > language? Crow > > > has baa-iila'pxisaahka and Hidatsa has maa-a'arutaahka (in both > > lgs, > > > indefinite prefix + grandfather). Is this perhaps a pan-Plains > > > phenomenon? > > > > > > Randy From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu Thu Feb 15 14:27:56 2001 From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 08:27:56 -0600 Subject: sky, clouds Message-ID: Here are some forms from Winnebago: maNxi, sky, clouds, heaven, air maNghira, the sky [Tiver-Radin] maxi wange'ja, heaven, sky ("sky above") [Gatschet] The following forms are interesting because -wi also happens to be the plural suffix: maxiwi, cloud, clouded sky [Gatschet] maxiwi, ka-a that cloud [Gatschet] maxiwi nige, "piece of cloud" (lit., "cloud forming") [Gatschet] maNxiwi, cloud [Radin-Marino] maxiwixiwi, cloudy [Gatschet] MaNxiwimaniga, He who Walks in the Cloud, a personal name in the Bird Clan [Radin] MaNxiwiwak'anjaNk'a, Sacred Cloud, a personal name in the Bird Clan [Radin] The Winnebago also have another word for cloud that also seems to mean "sky": ke(ra), (the) cloud [Radin-Marino] K'eratcosepga, Black Sky (the firmament), a personal name in the Bird Clan [Radin] The last seems to come from k'era, "the sky," tco, "blue," and sep, "black," with -ga indicating a personal name. Sometimes the sky is denoted in the following way: tcora, sky ("the blue") [Radin-Marino] From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu Thu Feb 15 14:52:46 2001 From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 08:52:46 -0600 Subject: President Message-ID: I can only find one source for Winnebago that has their term for the US president: Hitc?ke H?rera, Our Great Father, the President [Gatschet]. This actually means "Our Grandfather." Foster, who collected his material in 1853, has the following of interest: huNk hiaNtc hirera, the chief our father, a title for an Indian agent. From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Thu Feb 15 15:11:41 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:11:41 -0600 Subject: U.S. President and cloud/sky: more. Message-ID: > Also they noted the word for "to be sky blue"= "maNxio'cho". jgt That confirms that the -u in maNxu or maNghu is the remnant of a suffix that had a -u. Thanks! So I'm still convinced that there's a -pu suffix wandering about in here somewhere. It is conceivable that it is the pluralizer/nominalizer, -pi, but then we'd have irregular passage of the -i to -u. But of course -pi ~ -u contextually in Dakotan.... So who knows. There's certainly precedent for plural -pi being bleached of its plural meaning and becoming a noun formative in Dakotan. Sara Trechter (I think) did a paper on some of these at one of the more recent Siouan Conferences. A good example is tipi /thipi/. For those interested in the cultural aspects of blue skies and clouds, LaFlesche's Osage Dictionary has a number of references to the importance of clear blue skies, etc. in Osage prayer rituals. A computer search for "cloud" in the dict. turned up quite a variety of terms and references. Bob From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Thu Feb 15 15:55:09 2001 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 08:55:09 -0700 Subject: U.S. President Message-ID: Lakhota also uses 'his/her grandfather' (thuNkas^ila) -- but that term is also used for the head of other kinds of organizations or groups. The word "thunkas^silapi", lit. 'their grandfather(s)' is used for the US government, though one source also glosses it as 'elders". Normally, -pi pluralizes the possessor, not the possessed. If you're curious, Wichita for 'president' (i':ri7asiwa:c7A) translates 'Big Chief'. Is that because Wichita is not Siouan, or because they're in the Southern plains? DAvid David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado Campus Box 295 Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > A query: what is the word for 'U.S. President' in your Siouan language? Crow > has baa-iila'pxisaahka and Hidatsa has maa-a'arutaahka (in both lgs, > indefinite prefix + grandfather). Is this perhaps a pan-Plains phenomenon? > > Randy > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Feb 15 17:02:38 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:02:38 -0700 Subject: U.S. President In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > If you're curious, Wichita for 'president' (i':ri7asiwa:c7A) > translates 'Big Chief'. Is that because Wichita is not Siouan, or because > they're in the Southern plains? Very curious, actually! Now I wonder about Pawnee and Arikara, which are clearly Northern Plains as well as Northern Caddoan. JEK From egooding at iupui.edu Thu Feb 15 22:46:35 2001 From: egooding at iupui.edu (Erik D. Gooding) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:46:35 -0500 Subject: clouds in Stoney In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here are the cloud terms I collected for the two Stoney dialects: Mountain: ohanthi Forest: Ohazi I didn't collect terms for president, since all Stoney live in Canada. I guess I should have asked for a term for Prime Minister, but I didn't. The word for queen I got from one person was wiNyahuNga ''woman-beloved" Erik At 08:27 AM 02/15/2001 -0600, Richard L. Dieterle wrote: >Here are some forms from Winnebago: > >maNxi, sky, clouds, heaven, air >maNghira, the sky [Tiver-Radin] >maxi wange'ja, heaven, sky ("sky above") [Gatschet] > >The following forms are interesting because -wi also happens to be the plural >suffix: > >maxiwi, cloud, clouded sky [Gatschet] >maxiwi, ka-a that cloud [Gatschet] >maxiwi nige, "piece of cloud" (lit., "cloud forming") [Gatschet] >maNxiwi, cloud [Radin-Marino] >maxiwixiwi, cloudy [Gatschet] >MaNxiwimaniga, He who Walks in the Cloud, a personal name in the Bird Clan >[Radin] >MaNxiwiwak'anjaNk'a, Sacred Cloud, a personal name in the Bird Clan [Radin] > >The Winnebago also have another word for cloud that also seems to mean "sky": > >ke(ra), (the) cloud [Radin-Marino] >K'eratcosepga, Black Sky (the firmament), a personal name in the Bird Clan >[Radin] > >The last seems to come from k'era, "the sky," tco, "blue," and sep, "black," >with -ga indicating a personal name. > >Sometimes the sky is denoted in the following way: > >tcora, sky ("the blue") [Radin-Marino] > > > > > > From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Thu Feb 15 22:29:07 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:29:07 -0600 Subject: U.S. President Message-ID: > If you're curious, Wichita for 'president' (i':ri7asiwa:c7A) > translates 'Big Chief'. Is that because Wichita is not Siouan, or > because they're in the Southern plains? Good question. In addition to the Quapaw form I cited, that language also has 'wajini kahike' for President. Wajini is 'whiteman < Virginia' and kahike is 'chief'. I took it to be a neologism because of the word order, but a large group of Quapaws lived with the Caddos in the 19th century. Interestingly, Osage has the borrowing 'wacini' from 'Virginia' also, but there it means "disease". :-) Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Feb 15 23:37:01 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:37:01 -0700 Subject: Quapaw & Caddo (was Re: U.S. President) In-Reply-To: <3A8C5832.A1AEAA86@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, RLR wrote: > Good question. In addition to the Quapaw form I cited, that language > also has 'wajini kahike' for President. Wajini is 'whiteman < Virginia' > and kahike is 'chief'. I took it to be a neologism because of the word > order, but a large group of Quapaws lived with the Caddos in the 19th > century. In fact, the Ima(N)haN village group merged with the Caddo. JEK From shanwest at uvic.ca Thu Feb 15 23:46:13 2001 From: shanwest at uvic.ca (Shannon West) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:46:13 -0800 Subject: Sky and clouds In-Reply-To: <3A8B0488.EF62D882@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of RLR > Sent: February 14, 2001 2:20 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Sky and clouds > > > > In Mark Swetland's UmoNhoN Iye of Elizabeth Stabler, 'sky' > is maNghe and 'cloud' is maNxpi (slightly re-spelled, of > course). So clouds are plural sky? > > I don't think so, but I'm not certain. I suspect the -pi or -piya that > occurs on maNghe to make 'cloud' is just a derivational > morpheme of some > kind -- not the pluralizer. The forms I'm familiar with have > an umlauted > [u"] after -p-, not an i. [maxpu"ya]. I would have expected > the Dakotan > form then to have -pu rather than -pi, but it doesn't seem > to, so I'm a > little unsure of my ground here. In any event, nothing about this is > obvious to me. For Assiniboine, I've got maxpiya for 'sky' and amaxpiya for 'cloud', and aohazi for 'cloudy'. That last one is from Jerome Fourstar's Assiniboine Dictionary, the others from my notes. Shannon From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 16 06:57:24 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:57:24 -0700 Subject: U.S. President (fwd) Message-ID: I asked David Costa and Michael McCafferty about 'president' in Algonquian languages. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:57:15 -0800 From: David Costa To: Michael Mccafferty , Koontz John E Subject: Re: U.S. President (fwd) /meetaahtsoopia/, actually. Means 'government', mainly. It literally means 'ten-sitter'. It has straight cognates in Fox and Ottawa, so it's not just some perverse Miami fluke, either. Next question: I have NO IDEA why the word for 'government' should be 'ten-sitter'. ... From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 16 07:07:36 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:07:36 -0700 Subject: U.S. President In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, Koontz John E wrote: > Very curious, actually! Now I wonder about Pawnee and Arikara, which are > clearly Northern Plains as well as Northern Caddoan. Arikara ati'pa? 'my grandfather' a'pa? 'your grandfather' ipa'hni? 'his grandfather' ati'pAt 'President of the United States' These terms look related, but, as it's Caddoan, I hesitate to assert this definitely. JEK (From An English-Arikara Student Dictionary, ed. by Douglas R. Parks.) V' = accented vowel, A = voiceless a, ? = glottal stop From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 16 08:47:41 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:47:41 -0700 Subject: U.S. President and cloud/sky: more. In-Reply-To: <3A8B0B08.1A5CB4A7@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, RLR wrote: > And re 'sky, cloud(s)': > > Quapaw has maNghe 'sky'; moxpi 'cloud(s)' > Kansa has maNghe 'sky, "the upper world"' and maxpu" or moxpu" > 'cloud(s)'. > > All of this leads me to speculate that the mysterious Chiwere form for > 'sky', maNghu, is from earlier *maNxwu, which would be the outcome in > Chiwere of the same form that gives Kansa/Osage maNxpu". My recollection > is that the p > w in this context in CH. This would give Quapaw and > Omaha-Ponca maNxpi regularly, leaving only the Dakotan /i/ unexplained. Here's my take on this. Note that Dorsey, in 1885 article 'On the Comparative Phonolpogy of Four Siouan Languages', gives as set 92 'sky': Da ma-qpi-ya; Po (OP) ma-qpi; Ks ma-qpu"; Os ma-qpu"; Ch. ma-xu (I), ma-xue (Ot); Wi (Ho) maxi-da. His q is modern x; his x is modern gh (gamma). He tends in this to give Winnebago -ra as -da. The -ra (or =ra) is identified as the definite article and has functions in marking relative clauses. I'm not sure if it is properly a "definite" article, but it is probably not wrong to call it an article in some sense, and it is not an indefinite article. Summarizing the forms supplied in which maNx- occurs: Language Te OP Ks Os IO Wi 'sky' - maN'ghe maNghe maNghe - - 'cloud' maxpi'ya maN'xpi maNxpu" maNxp[i?] maN'ghu(e) maNaNxi'(wi) In Teton, compare maNxpi'xpiya 'scatering clouds' (reduplicated); also maNxpi'ohaNzi 'a shadow caused by a cloud', maNxpiyohaNzizi 'the passage of clouds, at intervlas obstructing the sunlight'. Winnebago maN(aN)xi=ra is just maNaNxi' with =ra. Winnebago maNaNxioc^o is maNaNxi' + oco 'be blue in/there'. IO "mo"xpi" attributed in Good Tracks to Maximillien, sure looks like Omaha-Ponca to me. Os maNxpi per LaFlesche could be maNxpu", given LaFlesche's difficulties with u". IO maNghue is clearly a spelling variant of maNghuwe. IO maNghu(we) in the maNxuwe variant reduplicates as maNghughuwe. In languages that lack a form in the first row, the form in the second row takes the interpretation 'sky; cloud(s)'. 'Cloud(s)' is also rendered 'cloudy' in translations. Reconstructions. Form 1 is *maN'ghe. For the moment I'll avoid the waN vs maN issue. Form 2 is *maN'xpi. The developments of form 1 don't seem to pose any problems. Note that those languages that lack it have homophones, mainly *maNgh- 'field'. The second form acquires a formant -ya in Dakotan. This disappears in some compounds, though not maNxpiyatho 'blue sky; Arapahoe'. And it's difficult to argue this convincingly as the only compound I have is V-initial, making a V1 + V2 => V2 contraction argument possible. However, compare the flat absence of any such extension elsewhere, except Winnebago, to which I'll return, and the existence of other root + ya nouns that lose -ya in compounds, e.g., wiN(yaN) 'woman', khe(ya) 'turtle', he(ya) 'louse', iN(yaN) 'stone' (cf. B&D, p. 71). Also the pattern of insertion of -ya after many CV nouns before certain postpositions, e.g., with thi- 'dwelling', mniN- 'water', ble- 'lake', c^haN- 'woods', xe- 'away from camp; mountains?' (cf. B&D, p. 144). A similar pattern occurs with appended a or ablaut in Omaha-Ponca with certain postpositions, e.g., ttiatta 'in the house'. The Dakotan postpositions are -ta, -taya, -taNhaN. The OP ones are -di, -tta, -ttadi, ttahaN, sometimes others. In OP, the forms remains intact. In Ks and posibly Os for reasons as yet unclear final i becomes u". This might be the influence of the preceding p, but there are other cases of unexpected u" for *i and unexpected i for *u, and OP and Qu both merge *u and *i, while Ks and Os shift *u to u". In IO, *maNxpi > *maNxwi regularly, and this is reinterpreted as maNxu(w)e, presumbly via maNxui. Compare IO xume, xumi 'stinky' with OP xwiN 'phew!'. For the developments of *xp, cf. Te xpe'c^a(ka) 'faint, exhausted', Os xpeka 'languid, drooping', IO xwe'ge 'week, feeble, drousy'. The final change is the loss of -(w)e in some usages. Wi maNaNxi'wi is the regular development of maN'xpi. But -wi is one of the plural enclitics, cf. Dakotan -pi, OP -bi ~ -i, etc., so it is often deleted through a reanalysis process, yielding maNaNxi'. And the enclitic article =ra can be added to this reduced form. Whether or not this =ra is to be connected with the Dakotan -ya extensions and insertions, the Omaha-Ponca -(y)a insertions, and perhaps the readines of IO to delete an apparently extraneous -(w)e at the end of a word is, again, a separate issue. Yet another issue is whether *maN'xpi 'cloud(s), cloudy' is the plural of *maN'gh(e) 'sky'. Clearly the concepts of 'sky' and 'cloud(s)' connect well today in many cases and I don't see any real semantic difficulty in treating 'cloud(s)' as 'pieces of sky, skies'. However, whatever the nature and origin of the final -e of *maNghe, it is true that the Mississippi Valley plural marker pi (and, as far as I know, all Siouan plural markers) is notorious for preferring to mutate -e to -a. Also, Bob Rankin has argued powerfully that we should probably see -pi as -api even in synchronic cases, so perhaps the plural of *maN'ghe should be expected to be *maNghapi. (How do you * a *-ed form to indicate that it doesn't occur?) Note that the CSD draft reports cognates for form 1 'sky' in Crow-Hidatsa and Southeastern. The CH forms seem a bit difficult. Form 2 'cloud(s)' (albeit the Dakotan form is included under 'sky') seems to be restricted to Mississippi Valley. The 'rounding is secondary in Dhegiha' approach is adopted in 'cloud(s)'. John Koontz From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 16 09:17:00 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 02:17:00 -0700 Subject: U.S. President and cloud/sky: more. (fwd) Message-ID: Oops. This ought to have gone to the list. Nailed by the return to what problem in spite of my own good advice. JEK ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 02:07:25 -0700 (MST) From: Koontz John E To: Lance Foster Subject: Re: U.S. President and cloud/sky: more. On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > The Iowa chiefs Mahaska, White Cloud, was spelled historically different > ways. Together these ways (ex: Monhaska, Monhashka, Mahaska, Mahaskan, JGT > Maxu(we)=xga) can reveal some things. I suspect the spellings of 'White Cloud' are intended to render MaNgheska, in which maNghe is the "form 1" 'sky' term not otherwise attested in Ioway-Otoe and Winnebago. I wonder if the name is borrowed froma language that does have this term or if this is a relict. I can't think of any way to be sure! I suppose the name might be MaNghuska, too. > As Marsh/Whitman noted, "s" (?Prepalatal sibilant) was changing to v> (alveolar) "sh".. and JGT noted that even more recently in some family > dialects, the s/sh was being realized as "x". Thus JGT has "xga" as > "white", but earlier forms were ska/shka, very much like Om/Dak (again > correct me if I am off base). I think hka is a variant of (older) ska ~ (newer) ka. > IO does have another term, kera/kela (I am still deciding whether to go > with l or r in my presentation to the learner and I think JGT goes back and > forth too), which is glossed "the clear blue sky (at dawn)", a Bear Clan > name. "To" is blue, so kela has more to do with clarity.. although for > water (and for thinking), bredhe is "clear." Notice that here we have IO ? khera, cf. Dieterle's report of Wi kera, and LaFlesche has kkedha 'sky, the unclouded or clear sky. (What is the source for the IO form, by the way?) Teton has kheya 'to make a roof of', analyzed as a causative of 'turtle' by Buechel. I'm not sure if that's a clue or a red herring. I think earth is a turtle shell, but not the sky. Also, while one might wonder about *hkera 'sky', there's this from David Costa: ==== Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:58:59 -0800 From: David Costa To: Koontz John E , Michael Mccafferty Subject: Re: Sky and clouds (fwd) A Miami-Illinois word for 'sky'? Certainly, /kii$ikwi/. ===== The $ is s^. > IO "maNshi" is high, as in ahemaN'shi = ahe "hill" + maN'shi "high" = > mountain. But maN'shi also is related to maNgri(da), "above (as in the > sky). The first has a cognate in Omaa-Ponca. I think the second is perhaps not related, though it has the same first syllable. Also, compare Dakotan {waNkatuya or WaNkal literally 'up there, high up'}, offered by Bruce Ingham with Winnebago {maxi wange'ja, heaven, sky ("sky above") [Gatschet]}, offered by Richard Dieterle, in which waNka- matches waNge-, implying *waNk(e) 'high'. I'm not sure if the first part of IO maNgrida is related or not. JEK From ioway at earthlink.net Fri Feb 16 13:15:36 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 06:15:36 -0700 Subject: U.S. President and cloud/sky: more. (fwd) Message-ID: > > > I suspect the spellings of 'White Cloud' are intended to render MaNgheska, > in which maNghe is the "form 1" 'sky' term not otherwise attested in > Ioway-Otoe and Winnebago. I wonder if the name is borrowed froma language > that does have this term or if this is a relict. I can't think of any way > to be sure! I suppose the name might be MaNghuska, too. Something to consider...JGT may have some thoughts on this. > > > I think hka is a variant of (older) ska ~ (newer) ka. I think there was a change from shka to ska to a kind of lisping ska/thka, then finally thka. Whitman describes this. Don't know why.. that's why I'm here.. to learn :-) > > Notice that here we have IO ? khera, cf. Dieterle's report of Wi kera, and > LaFlesche has kkedha 'sky, the unclouded or clear sky. (What is the > source for the IO form, by the way?) I have to go through my horrible mess of a filing system for the short form, but one source is Skinner's list of gentes (1926:193) in which one subgentes of the Buffalo Gens/Clan is given as " Kxe'rata' ", "Clear Day." I know I have seen the short form Kera as well, in another work of Skinner's. > Teton has kheya 'to make a roof of', > analyzed as a causative of 'turtle' by Buechel. I'm not sure if that's a > clue or a red herring. I think earth is a turtle shell, but not the sky. IO has "ketan" as turtle. IO tended to look at the earth as a domed lodge, and the earth as an Island, but Turtle was conceived as being one of the layers of the World, and it is possible to think of the sky as the inside of a domed shell. The archaeological antecedent of the IOM was Oneota, and Oneota was a heavily intertribal/interlinguistic phenomenon involved with much trading up and down the Mississippi and Missouri, a role the Ioway continued into historic times. -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu Fri Feb 16 16:57:59 2001 From: jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu (John P. Boyle) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:57:59 -0600 Subject: Sky and clouds In-Reply-To: <001601c097a9$7bad5c40$6436688e@fsh.uvic.ca> Message-ID: Just to throw out the Hidatsa forms for sky and clouds. 'Sky' is ahpaaxi which can also be used for 'clouds'. 'Clouds' can also be ahpaaxi-aru-ohxaadi 'sky-REL-white' or 'those that are white in the sky' which can be compared to 'sky-blue' ahpaaxi-aru-do'ohi 'sky-REL-blue'. Clearly the Hidatsa sky/cloud word is cognate with the other (cloud) words discusseds thus far. John Boyle From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Fri Feb 16 15:44:26 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:44:26 GMT Subject: Sky and clouds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes it had occurred to me that living on the Plains would make a difference in one's concept of sky and clouds. I suppose the 'clouds' are seen as a reduction of the 'vastness' to specific entities. On a sailing note in England we talk about the 'sea-side' and in America and Australia I hear people refer more often to 'the Ocean', presumably because the only sea you've got is an ocean. The colour is different too. We distinguish 'grey water sailors' around the estuaries, 'green water sailors' in the English channeI and North Sea and 'blue water sailors' who cross the oceans. On days without any clouds in the sky I heard people saying "thowaN'z^ic^a" (tho + waNz^i' -ka) - something like "all blue" or "whole blue". I don't have Buechel on hand right now but I think he has this word in his dictionary too. Thanks Jan I think that occurs in Buechel too. That would obviously be the way it would be done. Bruce Date sent: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:04:42 -0700 (MST) Send reply to: Koontz John E From: Koontz John E To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Sky and clouds > Therefore I wonder how to say such a thing as 'there are no clouds in > the sky'. I'd assume that historically this would be akin to saying 'there are no clouds among the clouds'. In other words, I think the conception of sky was an emptiness populated by clouds, so that clouds were the thing to which attention was directed, leaving no actual term for the emptiness, except in the theological conception of stacked worlds that occurs among Siouan groups as it does elsewhere. It might be relevant that sky is psychologically very different in a grassland from sky peeping between trees in a forest or hanging between mountains in a valley. It seems less a lid and more a vastness. Easterners always comment to me on how weird it seems too see distant rain. However, whatever the etymological basis of the forms, with or without English, French, etc., and Christian influences, this conception may have changed in a given language. The formulation of 'sky' as 'clouds' enters into the compound 'blue-sky-people' for the Arapahoes. > ... and one sees sentences like, I think, mah^piya ska wan woslal he > 'a white cloud stood vertically (in front of them)'. I seem to recall that clouds walk in Omaha-Ponca. JEK Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Fri Feb 16 16:10:23 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 16:10:23 GMT Subject: clouds in Stoney In-Reply-To: <4.1.20010215174059.0097c6a0@imap1.iupui.edu> Message-ID: That's interesting they're cognate with the words for 'shade, shadow' in Lakota, ohaNzi. Do these then mean shadow of the cloud on the mountains or forest? Queen Victoria was referred to as the Grandmother uNci or uNcis^i in Lakota and Canada as uNci thamakhoche 'Grandmother land', but I'm sure you know that. Presumably they've forgotten about Queen Vic. Bruce Date sent: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:46:35 -0500 Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: "Erik D. Gooding" To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu, siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: clouds in Stoney Here are the cloud terms I collected for the two Stoney dialects: Mountain: ohanthi Forest: Ohazi I didn't collect terms for president, since all Stoney live in Canada. I guess I should have asked for a term for Prime Minister, but I didn't. The word for queen I got from one person was wiNyahuNga ''woman-beloved" Erik At 08:27 AM 02/15/2001 -0600, Richard L. Dieterle wrote: >Here are some forms from Winnebago: > >maNxi, sky, clouds, heaven, air >maNghira, the sky [Tiver-Radin] >maxi wange'ja, heaven, sky ("sky above") [Gatschet] > >The following forms are interesting because -wi also happens to be the plural >suffix: > >maxiwi, cloud, clouded sky [Gatschet] >maxiwi, ka-a that cloud [Gatschet] >maxiwi nige, "piece of cloud" (lit., "cloud forming") [Gatschet] >maNxiwi, cloud [Radin-Marino] >maxiwixiwi, cloudy [Gatschet] >MaNxiwimaniga, He who Walks in the Cloud, a personal name in the Bird Clan >[Radin] >MaNxiwiwak'anjaNk'a, Sacred Cloud, a personal name in the Bird Clan [Radin] > >The Winnebago also have another word for cloud that also seems to mean "sky": > >ke(ra), (the) cloud [Radin-Marino] >K'eratcosepga, Black Sky (the firmament), a personal name in the Bird Clan >[Radin] > >The last seems to come from k'era, "the sky," tco, "blue," and sep, "black," >with -ga indicating a personal name. > >Sometimes the sky is denoted in the following way: > >tcora, sky ("the blue") [Radin-Marino] > > > > > > Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 16 16:37:33 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:37:33 -0700 Subject: ska, s^ka, xja, ka, etc. In-Reply-To: <3A8D27F7.6C71D1A7@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > > I think hka is a variant of (older) ska ~ (newer) ka. > > I think there was a change from shka to ska to a kind of lisping ska/thka, then > finally thka. Whitman describes this. Don't know why.. that's why I'm here.. to > learn :-) The comparativist's appreciation of the situation is that most of the Mississippi Valley Siouan languages have s/s^/x contrasts (and at least some voiced z/z^/gh contrasts) in the fricatives. These occur in older examples of Ioway-Otoe more or less matched with the other languages in cognate sets, like *ska 'white'. However, for a long time now Ioway-Otoe has been shifting s to (i.e., theta) and s^ to s. My recollection is that x stays put. Z/z^/gh troop/do not troop along in unison with s/s^/x. In addition there is some tendency for sk to become hk, which, of course, conflicts with the tendency of s to become , leading to k ~ hk doublets. And, in older sources you find sk still. The shift of s^ (or sh) to s is less absolute, if I recall, so that s^ variants tend to still occur. Naturally, this is all somewhat complicated by the existence in Ioway-Otoe of the same pattern of sound symbolism with fricatives that occurs in other Siouan languages, so that one might expect for ska sound symbolic grades of s^ka and *xka. I think xk tends to be rare to non-existent because of constraints on clusters. Some Stoney dialects also shift s to , and Ofo in the Southeast shifts it to f. In Mandan, to everyone's amazement, s and s^ are interchanged. Hu Matthews has a paper in IJAL c. 1970 addressing the Mandan situation and some others. Siouanists pondering these problems tend to spend a lot of time squinting askew, frowning, and counting on their fingers. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 16 16:45:34 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:45:34 -0700 Subject: Cf. IO khera 'sky' In-Reply-To: <3A8D27F7.6C71D1A7@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > > Notice that here we have IO ? khera, cf. Dieterle's report of Wi kera, and > > LaFlesche has kkedha 'sky, the unclouded or clear sky. (What is the > > source for the IO form, by the way?) (JEK speaking) > > I have to go through my horrible mess of a filing system for the short form, but > one source is Skinner's list of gentes (1926:193) in which one subgentes of the > Buffalo Gens/Clan is given as " Kxe'rata' ", "Clear Day." I know I have seen the > short form Kera as well, in another work of Skinner's. Thanks. Jimm Good Tracks' IOM Dictionary is otherwise such a thorough collection of the existing materials that I was surprised not to find it there. I'd say that Skinner's kx confirms the aspiration. > > Teton has kheya 'to make a roof of', > > analyzed as a causative of 'turtle' by Buechel. I'm not sure if that's a > > clue or a red herring. I think earth is a turtle shell, but not the sky. > > IO has "ketan" as turtle. IO tended to look at the earth as a domed lodge, and Cf. OP kkettaNga, which is usually translated 'big turtle', though something I saw somewhere suggested to me that it referred to a 'snapping turtle'. > the earth as an Island, but Turtle was conceived as being one of the layers of > the World, and it is possible to think of the sky as the inside of a domed > shell. The archaeological antecedent of the IOM was Oneota, and Oneota was a > heavily intertribal/interlinguistic phenomenon involved with much trading up and > down the Mississippi and Missouri, a role the Ioway continued into historic > times. I'll have to see if David Costa thinks there's anything in the MI resemblance. On reflection I think that 'turtle' itself has some resemblances between Siouan and Algonquian. The Siouan correspondences for *hkera are quite regular as far as they go. JEK From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Fri Feb 16 16:50:34 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:50:34 -0600 Subject: sky Message-ID: > I suppose the name might be MaNghuska, too. Don't think so. It was written down by a number of different people and became a place name in KS and NE, etc. It was never written with a rounded vowel as far as I know (and I've been looking at these names lately for Bill Bright's book). The most common (mis)spelling was "Mahaska". The -u of maNghu still has to be coming from a suffix. The spelling mo"xpi for sky or cloud found in Jimm's dictionary is listed as being from Prince Maximilian of Wied's word lists in the 1820's. I've written on this and we know his word list came from one Major John Dougherty who was assigned as an agent of the War Department to the Otoes at Belleview, NE. He is known to have substituted words from other Indian languages he had a passing familiarity with when he couldn't recall the term in the languages he had volunteered information about. I found a number of clearly Otoe terms among his "Kansa" contributions. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 16 16:57:24 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:57:24 -0700 Subject: Sky and clouds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, John P. Boyle wrote: > Just to throw out the Hidatsa forms for sky and clouds. 'Sky' is ahpaaxi > which can also be used for 'clouds'. 'Clouds' can also be > ahpaaxi-aru-ohxaadi 'sky-REL-white' or 'those that are white in the sky' > which can be compared to 'sky-blue' ahpaaxi-aru-do'ohi 'sky-REL-blue'. > Clearly the Hidatsa sky/cloud word is cognate with the other > (cloud) words discusseds thus far. It's nice to see 'sky' and 'cloud' again conflated. I'm a little puzzled by the ahp- vs. m (or w) correspondence, though otherwise this looks good and convinced the CSD team. The hardening in Hidatsa is what puzzles me, not the nasality, since CH loses this. On the other hand, I don't really remember the correspondences for PS vs. CH! The prefixal a- does remind me of the mechanism exhibited in a number of the Mississippi Valley languages of verbalizing the 'cloud/sky' stem(s) with a- as 'be cloudy (there/on it)'. Some of these are then renominalized. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 16 17:01:09 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:01:09 -0700 Subject: Sky and clouds In-Reply-To: <19D952D4AC3@soas.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, Bruce Ingham wrote: > Yes it had occurred to me that living on the Plains would make a difference > in one's concept of sky and clouds. ... > Dr. Bruce Ingham > Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies > SOAS I guess I should have recalled that Bruce specializes in languages spoken in places with relatively few trees. And has been there to make sure. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 16 17:07:55 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:07:55 -0700 Subject: sky In-Reply-To: <3A8D5A5A.9020205@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, RLR wrote: > > I suppose the name might be MaNghuska, too. > > Don't think so. It was written down by a number of different people and > became a place name in KS and NE, etc. It was never written with a > rounded vowel as far as I know (and I've been looking at these names > lately for Bill Bright's book). The most common (mis)spelling was > "Mahaska". The -u of maNghu still has to be coming from a suffix. OK, strike MaNghuska as a possibility for "Mahaska," etc. > The spelling mo"xpi for sky or cloud found in Jimm's dictionary is > listed as being from Prince Maximilian of Wied's word lists in the > 1820's. I've written on this and we know his word list came from one > Major John Dougherty who was assigned as an agent of the War Department > to the Otoes at Belleview, NE. He is known to have substituted words > from other Indian languages he had a passing familiarity with when he > couldn't recall the term in the languages he had volunteered information > about. I found a number of clearly Otoe terms among his "Kansa" > contributions. That would tend to confirm that. There shouldn't be any *xp > xp in IO, only *xp > xw. JEK From Rgraczyk at aol.com Fri Feb 16 18:09:08 2001 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:09:08 EST Subject: U.S. President Message-ID: Thanks for the info on 'president'. I had thought that it might have been a borrowing between Crow and Hidatsa, but the 'grandfather' term is widespread on the northern plains. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rgraczyk at aol.com Fri Feb 16 18:31:07 2001 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:31:07 EST Subject: U.S. President Message-ID: Martin and Mauldin's Creek/Muskogee dictionary has Wvcenvmekko 'white man's chief' for president. Note the Virginia word again. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rgraczyk at aol.com Fri Feb 16 18:55:43 2001 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:55:43 EST Subject: Sky and clouds Message-ID: Crow has awa'xa for 'sky' and ahpaaxi' for 'cloud'. Perhaps Hidatsa has lost the awa'xa term and uses ahpaaxi' for both 'clouds' and 'sky'. Actually awa'xa looks like a better candidate for a cognate with the other Siouan terms. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Fri Feb 16 20:52:30 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 14:52:30 -0600 Subject: Sky and clouds Message-ID: Yeah, awaxa fits maNghe perfectly, initial syllables undergoing syncope in Mississippi Valley Siouan. Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > Crow has awa'xa for 'sky' and ahpaaxi' for 'cloud'. Perhaps Hidatsa has > lost > the awa'xa term and uses ahpaaxi' for both 'clouds' and 'sky'. Actually > awa'xa looks like a better candidate for a cognate with the other Siouan > terms. > > Randy I still tend to think that in the more southerly languages *maxpu is the prototype in Chiwere and Dhegiha throughout, with -pi turning up only in those languages (QU, OM, PN) in which *u > i with absolute regularity. That still leaves Dakotan and Winnebago. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 16 21:49:39 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 14:49:39 -0700 Subject: Sky and clouds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Feb 2001 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > Crow has awa'xa for 'sky' and ahpaaxi' for 'cloud'. Perhaps Hidatsa has lost > the awa'xa term and uses ahpaaxi' for both 'clouds' and 'sky'. Actually > awa'xa looks like a better candidate for a cognate with the other Siouan > terms. Is there any process (e.g., "aku-" prefixation) that would derive ahpaaxi' from awa'xa? JEK From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu Sat Feb 17 00:21:27 2001 From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 18:21:27 -0600 Subject: sky, turtle Message-ID: The connection between WI ke, "sky," and ke, "turtle," is interesting. It could be that WI ke meant "the vaulted one." In one of the Redhorn Cycle myths, the sons of Redhorn go on the warpath against two spirit beings who live beyond the edge of the earth. They have to cross the place where the sky meets the earth. They say that at this place a loud banging noise arises from the rocking sky-vault slamming against the rim of the earth. This shows that at least some of the WI believed that the sky is a solid vault. However, Marino (from Radin's notes) says that ke may also mean "frog," but a question mark is placed after it. I have yet to see ke as "frog" attested. One form for "frog" is wakaNaNshge (contemporary Wisc. WI), wakaNashke (Gatschet, Dorsey). Another of the words for frog, toad is kewaxgu (contemporary WI, Lamere, Marino-Radin). The contemporary Wisc. WI recognize kewashorocge as the word for "box turtle," however. A very common form of "turtle" is kecaNk, caNk meaning, "great, big, genuine, proper, etc." Vide, shuNk, "canine, dog," vs. shuNkcaNk, "wolf (great canine, canine proper)." It could be that kecaNk is meant to differentiate turtles from frogs. However, it may be the ke originally came to be applied to frogs in derivation from the sense meaning "turtle." Responding to the message of from siouan at lists.colorado.edu: > > Oops. This ought to have gone to the list. Nailed by the return to what > problem in spite of my own good advice. JEK > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 02:07:25 -0700 (MST) > From: Koontz John E > To: Lance Foster > Subject: Re: U.S. President and cloud/sky: more. > > On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > > The Iowa chiefs Mahaska, White Cloud, was spelled historically different > > ways. Together these ways (ex: Monhaska, Monhashka, Mahaska, Mahaskan, JGT > > Maxu(we)=xga) can reveal some things. > > I suspect the spellings of 'White Cloud' are intended to render MaNgheska, > in which maNghe is the "form 1" 'sky' term not otherwise attested in > Ioway-Otoe and Winnebago. I wonder if the name is borrowed froma language > that does have this term or if this is a relict. I can't think of any way > to be sure! I suppose the name might be MaNghuska, too. > > > As Marsh/Whitman noted, "s" (?Prepalatal sibilant) was changing to > v> (alveolar) "sh".. and JGT noted that even more recently in some family > > dialects, the s/sh was being realized as "x". Thus JGT has "xga" as > > "white", but earlier forms were ska/shka, very much like Om/Dak (again > > correct me if I am off base). > > I think hka is a variant of (older) ska ~ (newer) ka. > > > IO does have another term, kera/kela (I am still deciding whether to go > > with l or r in my presentation to the learner and I think JGT goes back and > > forth too), which is glossed "the clear blue sky (at dawn)", a Bear Clan > > name. "To" is blue, so kela has more to do with clarity.. although for > > water (and for thinking), bredhe is "clear." > > Notice that here we have IO ? khera, cf. Dieterle's report of Wi kera, and > LaFlesche has kkedha 'sky, the unclouded or clear sky. (What is the > source for the IO form, by the way?) Teton has kheya 'to make a roof of', > analyzed as a causative of 'turtle' by Buechel. I'm not sure if that's a > clue or a red herring. I think earth is a turtle shell, but not the sky. > > Also, while one might wonder about *hkera 'sky', there's this from David > Costa: > > ==== > Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:58:59 -0800 > From: David Costa > To: Koontz John E , > Michael Mccafferty > Subject: Re: Sky and clouds (fwd) > > A Miami-Illinois word for 'sky'? Certainly, /kii$ikwi/. > ===== > > The $ is s^. > > > IO "maNshi" is high, as in ahemaN'shi = ahe "hill" + maN'shi "high" = > > mountain. But maN'shi also is related to maNgri(da), "above (as in the > > sky). > > The first has a cognate in Omaa-Ponca. I think the second is perhaps not > related, though it has the same first syllable. > > Also, compare Dakotan {waNkatuya or WaNkal literally 'up there, high up'}, > offered by Bruce Ingham with Winnebago {maxi wange'ja, heaven, sky ("sky > above") [Gatschet]}, offered by Richard Dieterle, in which waNka- matches > waNge-, implying *waNk(e) 'high'. I'm not sure if the first part of IO > maNgrida is related or not. > > JEK > > > > . From Zylogy at aol.com Sat Feb 17 02:10:35 2001 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:10:35 EST Subject: sky, turtle Message-ID: Hi. Crosslinguistically, words for frog hail either from onomatopes (which CAN be reshaped historically to conform to other perceived motivations by speakers), physically salient actions such as jump/leap or the tongue shooting out to catch prey (much rarer), OR (and this is the most interesting here) the way the frogs vaulted roof of a mouth interacts with the flat lower jaw- you see this, for instance, across much of SEAsia (in Tai-Kadai, various Sinitic, etc.). The oral portion of the frog's skull is as shell-like as any turtle's shell, and the bottom interacts in the same way, just as the flat earth matches the sky. Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Zylogy at aol.com Sat Feb 17 02:15:58 2001 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:15:58 EST Subject: sky, turtle Message-ID: And oh, I forgot to include the dynamic part- the frog's tongue zaps out to capture prey, just as the turtle's head can come out of its shell and retract. In similar vein it seems the sun is the major trajector with respect to the sky, and the day/night cycle may relate as regards the ideas of openness/closure and lit/dark, clarity/dullness. Note finally that people in aboriginal times also went out from/back into their own "shells" diurnally. Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jggoodtracks at juno.com Sat Feb 17 04:15:04 2001 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:15:04 -0600 Subject: sky, turtle Message-ID: For comparision: There seems some correlation of the IO and WI as you present it below. There is an IO story which speaks similar to the story of the Red Horn Cycle. In this story, a group of ten men go on the warpath and come to the crack in the earth (end of the world). Upon jumping over it, they come to a Spirit Lodge, .... On Fri, 16 Feb 2001 18:21:27 -0600 "Richard L. Dieterle" writes: > The connection between WI ke, "sky," and ke, "turtle," is > interesting. It could > be that WI ke meant "the vaulted one." In one of the Redhorn Cycle > myths, the > sons of Redhorn go on the warpath against two spirit beings who live > beyond the > edge of the earth. They have to cross the place where the sky meets > the earth. Mayan ^shagarana at^anweNyashgun. Broge at^anwenya iyanki ugwa gigrashgun. Ruhaye mayan ugwa gigranye ki. ^sanke kinuwegra rashgun. The earth cracked and split open, and they had to jump across. They all jumped across, but one, he fell in. The earth opened and closed. He fell in, they say. (The Leader) went on with his nine men. > They say that at this place a loud banging noise arises from the > rocking > sky-vault slamming against the rim of the earth. This shows that at > least some > of the WI believed that the sky is a solid vault. >One form for "frog" is > wakaNaNshge (contemporary Wisc. WI), wakaNashke (Gatschet, Dorsey). IO= wagranshge; Also, the small green tree frog= peshge/ pesge. > Another of > the words for frog, toad is kewaxgu (contemporary WI, Lamere, > Marino-Radin). IO= chewax^u, toad [lit. "warty buffalo"]. From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Sat Feb 17 13:58:08 2001 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 07:58:08 -0600 Subject: another self-introduction Message-ID: I'll add my voice to welcome Wendy and Lance! Kathy Shea ----- Original Message ----- From: WENDY BRANWELL To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 9:03 AM Subject: another self-introduction Following Lance's steps, I'll also introduce myself. My name is Wendy Branwell, and I am currently a graduate student in the Anthropology department at Wichita State University. I am writing an introductory descriptive grammar of the Kaw language with the invaluable assistance of Dr. Rankin. The purpose of the grammar is to offer it to the Kaw as a tool for a language revitalization project I believe to have been recently initiated there in Kaw City. Any knowledge pertaining to Kaw culture and language is appreciated. To work with endangered languages is my passion, although, like Lance, my knowledge depth of linguistics is limited due to lack of a linguistic dept. at Wichita State. I am ESL certified with a BS in Technical Writing, and Phd work in literary theory at Rice University (1988). I lived in Costa Rica as a newspaper reporter for 6 years, and have lived in Panama, Guatemala, India, England and the Netherlands. If any of you know of a program seeking individuals to work in endangered language documentation, I'd be grateful for the contact. I should be finished in Wichita this August, and am welcoming a move out of the Wichita area (if ya know what I mean....). I look forward to getting to know all of you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sat Feb 17 14:59:46 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 08:59:46 -0600 Subject: Sky and clouds Message-ID: An interesting source of SKY and CLOUD forms is Kappler's Indian Affairs (Treaties) http://digital.library.okstate.edu/kappler/ in which the names of signatories are often given both in their native form and in English translation. A search for "sky OR cloud" yielded nearly 100 hits, many of them Siouan. Alan From ioway at earthlink.net Sat Feb 17 15:27:53 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 08:27:53 -0700 Subject: sky Message-ID: Ok, now for something weird in the way of unseemly coincidence... In Tewa (a Pueblo language of the southwest), 'sky' is "makowa." Source: J. P. Harrington, "The Ethnogeography of the Tewa Indians," (1916) (29th BAE Report [1907-1908], p. 45). "Makowa".. "sky".. hehe.. and it's not even Siouan... don't that burn your tail feathers Lance RLR wrote: > > I suppose the name might be MaNghuska, too. > > Don't think so. It was written down by a number of different people and > became a place name in KS and NE, etc. It was never written with a > rounded vowel as far as I know (and I've been looking at these names > lately for Bill Bright's book). The most common (mis)spelling was > "Mahaska". The -u of maNghu still has to be coming from a suffix. > > The spelling mo"xpi for sky or cloud found in Jimm's dictionary is > listed as being from Prince Maximilian of Wied's word lists in the > 1820's. I've written on this and we know his word list came from one > Major John Dougherty who was assigned as an agent of the War Department > to the Otoes at Belleview, NE. He is known to have substituted words > from other Indian languages he had a passing familiarity with when he > couldn't recall the term in the languages he had volunteered information > about. I found a number of clearly Otoe terms among his "Kansa" > contributions. > > Bob -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From ioway at earthlink.net Sat Feb 17 15:51:36 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 08:51:36 -0700 Subject: another self-introduction Message-ID: I am glad to be here. I no longer live in Montana, as I work and live in Santa Fe (for now anyway). I look forward to talking about Chiwere and comparative Siouan with everyone. I don't get to do much with it... other than talk to myself to the best of my ability.. if you think people give you looks when you talk English to yourself, think about when you talk IO aloud to yourself (or clouds, deer, etc.)..hehe I have an online group of 100+ members of the IO communities in which I act as referee and collaborator. I hope to establish an active cultural group, where language preservation and use is an important part. It will be tricky as JGT knows, as there are so many family dialects, interpersonal dynamics of sometimes opposing viewpoints, and so on. My approach will have to be measured and considered carefully, as I have made mistakes in the past and will no doubt continue to do so. I will have to mend some fences I broke when I was younger and thought I knew everything :-) I am interested in whether or not Dr. Furbee has actually published her Chiwere grammar, or if it just has the ISBN number at this time. I emailed the publisher in Germany and haven't heard anything from them. Does anyone know if it is out or when it will be out? Lance -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From BARudes at aol.com Sun Feb 18 02:16:18 2001 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:16:18 EST Subject: Sky and cloud Message-ID: Catawba has distinct words for sky and cloud. The word for cloud is namuN? (with accent on the /uN/) and the word for sky is wa:pit (with accent on the /a:/). However, the English glosses do not fit well. The word for cloud is often used for heaven and the lower levels of the sky in narratives, and the word for sky occurs in compounds for celestial objects (e.g., wa:pidnu star [with accent on the /i/). The distinction seems to be one of upper versus lower sky, or bounded versus unbounded sky. The Catawba word for sky may show metathesis, since the Woccon word for sun is Wittapare (i.e. /wita:pire:/ it is the sky). Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rgraczyk at aol.com Sun Feb 18 19:54:28 2001 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 14:54:28 EST Subject: Sky and clouds Message-ID: In a message dated 2/16/01 2:50:36 PM Mountain Standard Time, John.Koontz at colorado.edu writes: > Is there any process (e.g., "aku-" prefixation) that would derive ahpaaxi' > from awa'xa? > Not really. I wonder if there might be some metathesis involved with ahpaaxi', although it's difficult to work out the details. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Feb 19 01:01:12 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:01:12 -0700 Subject: sky, turtle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, Richard L. Dieterle wrote: > The connection between WI ke, "sky," and ke, "turtle," is interesting. > It could be that WI ke meant "the vaulted one." I'm inclined to suspect that kee means 'turtle', and that if it is the 'turtle' word that appears in this alternate word for 'sky' then in that context it means 'the (sky) turtle'. > In one of the Redhorn Cycle myths, the sons of Redhorn go on the warpath > against two spirit beings who live beyond the edge of the earth. They > have to cross the place where the sky meets the earth. They say that at > this place a loud banging noise arises from the rocking sky-vault > slamming against the rim of the earth. This shows that at least some of > the WI believed that the sky is a solid vault. This seems like an interesting confirmation of the vault theory. > However, Marino (from Radin's notes) says that ke may also mean "frog," > but a question mark is placed after it. I have yet to see ke as "frog" > attested. One form for "frog" is wakaNaNshge (contemporary Wisc. WI), > wakaNashke (Gatschet, Dorsey). I think this is perhaps supposed to be wakaNnaN's^ge, cf. Teton wagna's^ka, < PMV *wa-kraN's^-ka. The -n- appears in the citation in Miner. This does look like a onomatopeic 'the one that (goes) kraNs^'. > Another of the words for frog, toad is > kewaxgu (contemporary WI, Lamere, Marino-Radin). Miner gives it as 'toad', while Marino has it as 'frog' under ke. I wasn't able to find wakaNnaNs^ge in the Winnebago side of Marino, or an entry for frog or toad in the English side. I suspect this 'toad' form is what accounts for the "frog ?" in the ke headword. In Miner was^gu is given as 'to shell, v.tr., e.g., corn' (this wa- is the instrumental *pa). He cites -xku as 'to take off layers' (from Lipkind), and xguuxguk as 'to be scaly'. I'd gues kexgu means something like 'scaled or shelled turtle'. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Feb 19 01:21:52 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:21:52 -0700 Subject: sky, turtle In-Reply-To: <20010216.221512.-125547.10.jggoodtracks@juno.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, Jimm G GoodTracks wrote: > For comparision: > There seems some correlation of the IO and WI as you present it below. > There is an IO story which speaks similar to the story of the Red Horn > Cycle. In this story, a group of ten men go on the warpath and come to > the crack in the earth (end of the world). Upon jumping over it, they > come to a Spirit Lodge, .... Although we're perhaps wandering off of what might be for some linguistics (etymology) into literary issues, which I think we should try to avoid, this would seem to be the Omaha-Ponca story 'The Chief's Son and the Thunders' which I had not previously realized might be a part of the Redhorn story. > IO= chewax^u, toad [lit. "warty buffalo"]. In the "NetSiouan" notation this would be c^hewax?u. It vaguely resembles the Wi form, but has a different etymology. OP has ttebi?u < *hte-pix?u. The instrumental is different, pi- instead of pa-, but the root x?u is the same, and the initial syllable, apparently an incorporated *hte (cf. Da pte) 'buffalo'. I don't know what the x?u root signifies. Osage, where the root would take the form k?u has pak?u 'dig a ditch', so the idea of removing material is there in common with xku in the Winnebago word. JEK From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu Mon Feb 19 12:14:33 2001 From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 06:14:33 -0600 Subject: sky, turtle Message-ID: Responding to Koontz John E : > > On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, Richard L. Dieterle wrote: > > > The connection between WI ke, "sky," and ke, "turtle," is interesting. > > It could be that WI ke meant "the vaulted one." > > I'm inclined to suspect that kee means 'turtle', and that if it is the > 'turtle' word that appears in this alternate word for 'sky' then in that > context it means 'the (sky) turtle'. I know that some tribes of the Great Lakes region refer to the land mass (known to them) surrounded by the ocean-sea as "Turtle Island." This makes the land a turtle shell rising out of the surrounding waters. However, I haven't run across the idea that the sky is a turtle shell. Perhaps someone else has. From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu Mon Feb 19 12:36:34 2001 From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 06:36:34 -0600 Subject: sky, cloud Message-ID: Here is the Biloxi and Ofo material on sky/clouds from Dorsey's dictionary. There is very little preserved of Ofo. Biloxi: naci cloud, clouds naci kdexi mackerel sky ("spotted clouds") naci tohi the clear sky ("blue cloud") naci xwuhi the horizon ("low cloud") nacixti many clouds, the sky is cloudy naci psohuye northeast ("corner of the cloud") tunaci shadow anaci a ghost, shade, spirit Ofo: ocigwe cloud oNtaske star, sky From rlundy at huntel.net Mon Feb 19 17:05:15 2001 From: rlundy at huntel.net (Richard C. Lundy) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:05:15 -0600 Subject: Sky and clouds Message-ID: "Richard C. Lundy" wrote: > Greetings All! > > I continue to enjoy reading these materials generated by your interest in our Native > languages. Hello to Shannon West in Canada. I hope all is well for you and your > work. In response to the question re: clear sky or not cloudy, I can tell you how > I've learned it in actual on the rez Lakota. We say "amaHpiya Sni". Note that the > "H" is the so called guttural "H" often written as an "x". The "S" is as "sh" in > English. Once again I apologize for my lack of linguistic symbolism and training. > Also, one can say "maSte" (again with the S=sh) which means "it's a sunny day" or > the Santees will say "kasota" referring to a clear, cloudless day. In Lakota we > also will say "kaska iyaye" re: it has cleared up. These don't directly or > literally say "it is cloudless". That would be "amaHpiya Sni". > > Bruce Ingham wrote: > > > Dear Siouanists > > Something has been at the back of my mind for years. In Lakota the word > > given in dictionaries and elsewhere for 'sky', 'cloud' and 'heaven' is mah^piya. > > Sometimes also in Lakota prayers the equivalent for 'heaven' or 'sky' is > > waNkatuya or WaNkal literally 'up there, high up'. Therefore I wonder > > how to say such a thing as 'there are no clouds in the sky' . There is a verb > > kaska iyaya 'to clear (of clouds in the sky)' and one sees sentences > > like, I think, mah^piya ska wan woslal he 'a white cloud stood vertically > > (in front of them)'. Any ideas. Is this the same in other Siouan languages. > > > > Bruce > > > > > > Dr. Bruce Ingham > > Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies > > SOAS From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Mon Feb 19 17:33:20 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:33:20 GMT Subject: Sky and cloud In-Reply-To: <4e.119ee336.27c08a72@aol.com> Message-ID: Thank you for all the replies re cloud and sky. It is fascinating to see all these reflexes indifferent Siouan languages. Incidentally Blair's reply mentions 'stars'. In Lakota the word for 'star' is wichah^pi . Normally the prefix wicha- refers to animate plurals. Does anyone know why it turns up in the word for star? Is it from some other earlier use or some other morph. Does the wicha- occur in any other Siouan reflexes for 'star'. It is tempting to think of it as having something to do with spirits of the dead, but I'm sure that's far- fetched. Bruce Date sent: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:16:18 EST Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: BARudes at aol.com To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Sky and cloud Catawba has distinct words for sky and cloud. The word for cloud is namuN? (with accent on the /uN/) and the word for sky is wa:pit (with accent on the /a:/). However, the English glosses do not fit well. The word for cloud is often used for heaven and the lower levels of the sky in narratives, and the word for sky occurs in compounds for celestial objects (e.g., wa:pidnu star [with accent on the /i/). The distinction seems to be one of upper versus lower sky, or bounded versus unbounded sky. The Catawba word for sky may show metathesis, since the Woccon word for sun is Wittapare (i.e. /wita:pire:/ it is the sky). Blair Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Mon Feb 19 18:50:28 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 12:50:28 -0600 Subject: Stars. Message-ID: > In Lakota the word for 'star' is wichah^pi . > Normally the prefix wicha- refers to animate plurals. Does anyone > know why it turns up in the word for star? Hard to say. I'd guess either by accident or, perhaps, by folk-etymology. The form in several related languages is nasalized: Omaha-Ponca mikka'?e Kansa mikka'k?e Osage mihka'k?e Quapaw mikka'x?e These languages have no obvious reflex of a form that would underlie wicha "Man/person". However the folk etymology could have gone either way, i.e., the wicha in Dakotan may represent folk etymology connecting 'man' with 'star' (as in several traditional stories). Or the mi- of Dhegiha dialects may represent a fancied connection with mi- 'sun'. I resist connecting Dhegiha with mikka/mihka 'raccoon'. The m/w *should not* be corresponding here without a nasal vowel in the term, so there is certainly some sort of analogical change going on. The suffix is different in the two subgroups also. It appears as though -?e is a suffix in Dhegiha and the same -pi suffix we find so well represented in Dakotan nouns turns up there. So the glottalized fricative found originally in Dhegiha is historically most likely a composite with a morpheme boundary in the middle. Then the result underwent the usual Dhegiha change: *x? > k? > ? with Kansa/Osage retaining the middle form and Omaha-Ponca showing the last stage. There are plenty of other examples of this change. In the Comparative Dictionary files 'star' is very peculiar overall and hard to reconstruct. I don't have all the forms available at the moment, but I'll get them if anyone is interested. My recollection is that there are at least two quite distinct etyma reconstructible. But there are problems with both. I don't think that any of them can be reconstructed with 'man' as a component though. Bob Is it from some other > earlier use or some other morph. Does the wicha- occur in any > other Siouan reflexes for 'star'. It is tempting to think of it as having > something to do with spirits of the dead, but I'm sure that's far- > fetched. From ioway at earthlink.net Mon Feb 19 18:59:25 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:59:25 -0700 Subject: Sky and cloud Message-ID: IO is bikax?e bi = wi (bi = sun/light/moon) so I can see kax?e relates to chah?pi but could it relate to bika- hmm I don't know. However our IO stories do relate that the stars represent the campfires of the dead in wanaxi china (ghost+village) or wanaxi nawo (ghost+road) aka The Milky Way. And the father of the Holy Twins did go to live in Bikax?e Manyiskunyi, Star-Moves/Walks-Not, "the Star that does not move", aka the North Star. I find it interesting that many Native stories do not follow the popular notion that the Sun is male and the Moon is female (in IO the terms are the same, Bi) ...in IO the Twin Holy Boys, after they left Earth, one went into the Sun and the other into the Moon (while the father went into the North Star). But in IO the Earth is female. Lance Bruce Ingham wrote: > Thank you for all the replies re cloud and sky. It is fascinating to see > all these reflexes indifferent Siouan languages. Incidentally Blair's > reply mentions 'stars'. In Lakota the word for 'star' is wichah^pi . > Normally the prefix wicha- refers to animate plurals. Does anyone > know why it turns up in the word for star? Is it from some other > earlier use or some other morph. Does the wicha- occur in any > other Siouan reflexes for 'star'. It is tempting to think of it as having > something to do with spirits of the dead, but I'm sure that's far- > fetched. > > Bruce > > Date sent: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:16:18 EST > Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > From: BARudes at aol.com > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Sky and cloud > > Catawba has distinct words for sky and cloud. The word for cloud is namuN? > (with accent on the /uN/) and the word for sky is wa:pit (with accent on the > /a:/). However, the English glosses do not fit well. The word for cloud is > often used for heaven and the lower levels of the sky in narratives, and the > word for sky occurs in compounds for celestial objects (e.g., wa:pidnu star > [with accent on the /i/). The distinction seems to be one of upper versus > lower sky, or bounded versus unbounded sky. The Catawba word for sky may > show metathesis, since the Woccon word for sun is Wittapare (i.e. > /wita:pire:/ it is the sky). > > Blair > > Dr. Bruce Ingham > Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies > SOAS -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Feb 19 21:51:36 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 14:51:36 -0700 Subject: Stars. In-Reply-To: <3A916AF4.8030807@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: This doesn't add much to Bob's account, but may be easier for some folks to follow. On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, RLR wrote: > > In Lakota the word for 'star' is wichah^pi . > > Normally the prefix wicha- refers to animate plurals. Does anyone > > know why it turns up in the word for star? > > Hard to say. I'd guess either by accident or, perhaps, by > folk-etymology. The form in several related languages is nasalized: Mississippi Valley 'star': Dakotan wic^haxpi < *Wi hkax pi > Omaha-Ponca mikka'?e < *miN hkax ?e > Kansa mikka'k?e < *miN hkax ?e > Osage mihka'k?e < *miN hkax ?e > Quapaw mikka'x?e < *miN hkax ?e IO bikha'x?e < *Wi hkax ?e Wi (wiira guNs^ge) The affrications of k to c^ after i is regular in Dakotan. The k ~ c^ set is otherwise typical of the proto-Mississippi Valley "preaspirate" correspondence vs. the "(post)aspirate" and "unaspirated" correspondences. The spaces here are just to line things up. They don't necessarily correspond to morphological boundaries, but might. In particular, note that the first syllable in each case actually is the term in each language for 'luminary', that is 'sun; moon'. These forms have the same irregular corespondence, with *W in Dakota, IO, and Winnebago, and m + nasalized vowel in Dhegiha. In the Dhegiha languages, terms for 'moon' add aNba (or uNba?) and in OP the compound is changed then to niNaNba. The Winnebago term is based on wiira 'the luminary' = wii 'sun; moon' + ra 'the'. GuNuNs^ge is 'skunk', though guNuNs is 'teach, create'. The -ke (-ge in some Wi orthogrpahies) is the Winnebago and Ioway reflex of the nominalizer/"qualifier" -ka in Dakotan and Dhegiha. I'm not sure if 'star' should be rendered 'skunk luminary' or 'creator/teacher luminary'. The latter seems more likely. That sense might make some sense of *hkax in the other languages, since in all Mississippi Valley languages but IO and WI developments of *kaghe (Da kagha, OP gaghe, etc.) are 'to make'. The preaspiration in hkax is, however, something that only occurs when some other morpheme is prefixed to *kaghe e.g., *ki in some of the languages. cf. Da kic^haghe 'to make for' or OP gikkaghe 'to make one's own'. Since nothing is clearly prefixed here, we're left suspecting that we're going down a false trail. > The suffix is different in the two subgroups also. It appears as though > -?e is a suffix in Dhegiha and the same -pi suffix we find so well > represented in Dakotan nouns turns up there. So the glottalized > fricative found originally in Dhegiha is historically most likely a > composite with a morpheme boundary in the middle. Then the result > underwent the usual Dhegiha change: *x? > k? > ? with Kansa/Osage > retaining the middle form and Omaha-Ponca showing the last stage. There > are plenty of other examples of this change. For example, 'woman' OP wa?u, Os wak?o, Qu wax?o The ...x-pi sequence here is reminiscent of the one in the 'cloud' forms we have been discussing. We could possibly take it as a plural (as opposed to the "singular" in -e in 'sky'), but since the singular 'sky' form lacks the x?e reflexes, there are problems with that. About the best we can do is line the evidence up, notice the problems, and wait for some further enlightenment. Incidentally the *W set is Dakotan w (sometimes b in Santee or p in Teton), OP m, Ks b, Os p, Qu p, IO p, Wi w. JEK From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu Mon Feb 19 23:30:49 2001 From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:30:49 -0600 Subject: Stars, etc. Message-ID: Here is what I have in WI on star, sun, moon: wi sun, moon, month hamp wida sun (lit., "day sun") [Gatschet] haNhe wi moon (lit., "night sun") [Gatschet] hahewira (hah-ha-wer-dah) a moon [ge] wijahaNpi moonlight [Dorsey] wiragos^ke, pl. wiragos^kera star [Gatschet] wirakos^kera star, stars ("sun-suspended") [Dorsey] wiragus^kera (we-dah-goose-ka-dah) stars [Th. George] Wiragos^ge HaNke Dirani the North Star (Polaris), "the Star that does not Move." (cf. Crow, Ihaxaz^ise, "the Star that does not Move.") Wiragos^ge XedenaNgere The Large Star, Morning Star Wiragos^gew'iNga Star Woman, a personal name in the Bird Clan wi-hojije (> wojije) meteor [Radin] wiragos^ke ho-ikada shooting star [Gatschet] wirakos^keras^ibare a meteor [Dorsey] The word for "moonlight" might be a copying error for widahaNpi, which should be the correct form. Dorsey's analysis of wirakos^kera as "sun-suspended" is interesting. The nearest thing to kos^ke that I can find (other than skunk words) is gus, "rope." I had rejected the XIXth century translations of "sun" for wi, and had replaced them by "orb." However, I can find no instance of a word like this for a non-luminous orb (like a ball), so I will adopt "luminary" after Koontz. Wojije is the usual for "meteor, comet," and it is what they call its spiritual embodiment. From mosind at yahoo.com Tue Feb 20 03:26:51 2001 From: mosind at yahoo.com (Constantine Xmelnitski) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:26:51 -0800 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN Message-ID: Dear Siouanists: As is known, Lakhota dialect of Dakotan has two variations of aspirated stops : weak (h-like), and strong (x-like). According to Rood & Taylor ("Beginning Lakhota", 1976, 3:5), "All speakers agree that [h^] is used before [a, aN, uN]. All will also agree that [h] is always used after [c^]. Elsewhere, there is variation, with [h] predomination before [i, u], but [h^] predomination before [e, o, iN]." Perhaps that's all that could and should be said to it but I wonder what are the dialectal, positional, and etymological features of x-aspiration. 1. Lakxota-Dakhota-Nakoda dialects P.Shaw (1980), D.Parks & R. DeMallie (1992) do not tell anything about Ch vs. Cx opposition in LDN dialects. Neither N.Levin (1964) nor R.Hollow (1970) mention x-aspirated stops in their consonant sets for Fort Peck Assiniboine. However, the examples of speech published on http://fpcctalkindian.nativeweb.org/Nakona%20Alphabet.htm site cannot fully exclude the existence of px/tx/kx in Nakota. The audio-samples from CD on Yanktonai dialect (by the way, is it for sale already?) also seem to have [txatxanka] for buffalo. The Riggs dictionary is almost totaly devoid of aspiration marks, probably testifying the absense of px/tx/kx in Dakota. Yet there is a couple of exceptions, one of them is ape [aphe] "to wait for", and aphe [apxe?], var. of apha, to strike. However, the 2nd edition has WJC's note for a th^aNka entry: "The "h^" sound is introduced between "t" and its vowel quiet frequently by the TitoNwaN; perhaps with the idea of giving emphasis. I am more inclined, however, to regard it as a conventionality. I give some examples: tho, i. q. to, blue; thokeca, i. q. tokeca, different; thehan, i. q. tehan." So whether x-aspiration exists in Dakota is unclear. 2. Distribution. If we take positional rules ( x / C _ {a, aN, uN, o} ; h / C _ { u, i, iN, +/-e } ) for granted then Ch and Cx appear to be just positional allophones. Anyhow Jan Ullrich claims and David Rood confirms that px/tx/kx before ablauting -A remains in all positions, e.g. apxA "to strike": apxa pi ~ apxe shni ~ apxin kte (cp. aphe "to wait for": aphe shni). In this case Ch and Cx may be turning into separate phonemes. And Violet Catches, having designed the diacritic-free orthography for Lakxota, even regards px/tx/kx as consonantic clusters! Whether she is right or not, this proves that (some) fluent speakers consider Ch and Cx to be separate sounds. 3. Etymology. What is the amount of native speakers using both phe/the/khe and pxe/txe/kxe for different morphemes? Can we hypothesize that all the x-aspirated stops before [e] originate from -CxA verbs and Cxa nouns? Here's some examples (from Albert White Hat, Violet Catches - who show h- vs. x- aspiration in spelling) Derivatives of -pxA verbs: wi'chapxe "fork", owapxe "a strike; hour" Derivatives of pxa? ("?sharped end"): pxehin "hair", wi'pxe "sharped weapons", pxe'ta "fire" (The words with unclear aspiration: phezhi "grass", ophetxun "to buy") wi'yutxe "sign-talk" (< iyutxA), derivatives of kxA "to mean", wicakxA "to speak true" But: thezi "stomack", themni "to be perspiring", the'ca (WhiteHat) (but txecake (Violet Catches)). Thank you for your attention. Connie. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Tue Feb 20 08:22:26 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:22:26 GMT Subject: Sky and clouds In-Reply-To: <3A91524B.B8F7E8EE@huntel.net> Message-ID: Thanks Richard. Yes amah^piyas^ni is something I should have thought of. The verb amah^piya occurs in Buechel's dictionary. It confirms something I 've always thought about learning languages, which is that, if you've been working on a language for a few years, you probably know all the words that you need to know, but if you are not exposed to it in an everyday context, you don't know the context in which the words are used and keep looking for a new word, where you don't really need to. I mentioned at the Siouan conference a couple of years ago that my daughter, who learnt Persian as her first language, at the age of 1 year 8 months had 30 verbs and about 50 nouns, but seemed to be able to say absolutely everything that she needed to with very passable grammatical correctness. But then we all know that it's easier for children. Bruce . Date sent: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:35:35 -0600 From: "Richard C. Lundy" Send reply to: Richard, C., Lundy, PO, Box, 216, Macy, NE, 68039 To: bi1 at soas.ac.uk Subject: Re: Sky and clouds Greetings All! I continue to enjoy reading these materials generated by your interest in our Native languages. Hello to Shannon West in Canada. I hope all is well for you and your work. In response to the question re: clear sky or not cloudy, I can tell you how I've learned it in actual on the rez Lakota. We say "amaHpiya Sni". Note that the "H" is the so called guttural "H" often written as an "x". The "S" is as "sh" in English. Once again I apologize for my lack of linguistic symbolism and training. Also, one can say "maSte" (again with the S=sh) which means "it's a sunny day" or the Santees will say "kasota" referring to a clear, cloudless day. In Lakota we also will say "kaska iyaye" re: it has cleared up. These don't directly or literally say "it is cloudless". That would be "amaHpiya Sni". Bruce Ingham wrote: > Dear Siouanists > Something has been at the back of my mind for years. In Lakota the word > given in dictionaries and elsewhere for 'sky', 'cloud' and 'heaven' is mah^piya. > Sometimes also in Lakota prayers the equivalent for 'heaven' or 'sky' is > waNkatuya or WaNkal literally 'up there, high up'. Therefore I wonder > how to say such a thing as 'there are no clouds in the sky' . There is a verb > kaska iyaya 'to clear (of clouds in the sky)' and one sees sentences > like, I think, mah^piya ska wan woslal he 'a white cloud stood vertically > (in front of them)'. Any ideas. Is this the same in other Siouan languages. > > Bruce > > > Dr. Bruce Ingham > Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies > SOAS Date sent: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:05:15 -0600 Send reply to: Richard at hooch.colorado.edu, C. at hooch.colorado.edu, Kimberly.Lundy at colorado.edu, PO at hooch.colorado.edu From: "Richard C. Lundy" To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Sky and clouds "Richard C. Lundy" wrote: > Greetings All! > > I continue to enjoy reading these materials generated by your interest in our Native > languages. Hello to Shannon West in Canada. I hope all is well for you and your > work. In response to the question re: clear sky or not cloudy, I can tell you how > I've learned it in actual on the rez Lakota. We say "amaHpiya Sni". Note that the > "H" is the so called guttural "H" often written as an "x". The "S" is as "sh" in > English. Once again I apologize for my lack of linguistic symbolism and training. > Also, one can say "maSte" (again with the S=sh) which means "it's a sunny day" or > the Santees will say "kasota" referring to a clear, cloudless day. In Lakota we > also will say "kaska iyaye" re: it has cleared up. These don't directly or > literally say "it is cloudless". That would be "amaHpiya Sni". > > Bruce Ingham wrote: > > > Dear Siouanists > > Something has been at the back of my mind for years. In Lakota the word > > given in dictionaries and elsewhere for 'sky', 'cloud' and 'heaven' is mah^piya. > > Sometimes also in Lakota prayers the equivalent for 'heaven' or 'sky' is > > waNkatuya or WaNkal literally 'up there, high up'. Therefore I wonder > > how to say such a thing as 'there are no clouds in the sky' . There is a verb > > kaska iyaya 'to clear (of clouds in the sky)' and one sees sentences > > like, I think, mah^piya ska wan woslal he 'a white cloud stood vertically > > (in front of them)'. Any ideas. Is this the same in other Siouan languages. > > > > Bruce > > > > > > Dr. Bruce Ingham > > Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies > > SOAS Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From jggoodtracks at juno.com Tue Feb 20 14:43:23 2001 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:43:23 -0600 Subject: Stars. Message-ID: It has been shared that IOM "star" = bikax?e, from which one could derive a meaning of "Sun Crow" from the words: bi (celestial body; sun/ moon) & kax?e (crow). And at the same time, it has been mentioned that the oral literature speaks of the Twin Holy Boys and their father, merging in with the Sun, Moon & North Star, respectively. The statement that the stars were campfires of the dead is new to me, not ever hearing elderly informants say that, nor mention of it in the published accounts, traditional stories, or ethnology studies. And then, I could have missed something, so would need a resource reference on it. However, no one has mentioned here the Clan moieties for the IOM/ Winn, Dhegihas which indicate that the origins of the Clans were half from the Sky People (moiety), and half from the Earth People (moiety). I am not familiar with the Dhegiha Clan stories, but the IOM/WI stories, say the ancestors came to earth in the form of animals/ birds, changing into human beings. Perhaps, the Lakota "wicha-" (animate plural) is a carry over from a more archaic era with the L/D/Nakotas were still affiliated with a Clan system, that had the above features. I do recall that the Eastern Dakota (Santee), were the only group to maintain even a shorten version of the Twin Boys story, which is well known even in the Northern Plains by (Hidatsa/ Mandan) and the Algonquian neighbors. Jimm On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 12:50:28 -0600 RLR writes: > > In Lakota the word for 'star' is wichah^pi . > > Normally the prefix wicha- refers to animate plurals. Does anyone > > > know why it turns up in the word for star? > > Hard to say. I'd guess either by accident or, perhaps, by > folk-etymology. The form in several related languages is nasalized: > > Omaha-Ponca > mikka'?e > Kansa > mikka'k?e > Osage > mihka'k?e > Quapaw > mikka'x?e > > These languages have no obvious reflex of a form that would underlie > > wicha "Man/person". However the folk etymology could have gone > either > way, i.e., the wicha in Dakotan may represent folk etymology > connecting > 'man' with 'star' (as in several traditional stories). Or the mi- of > > Dhegiha dialects may represent a fancied connection with mi- 'sun'. > I > resist connecting Dhegiha with mikka/mihka 'raccoon'. The m/w > *should > not* be corresponding here without a nasal vowel in the term, so > there > is certainly some sort of analogical change going on. > > The suffix is different in the two subgroups also. It appears as > though > -?e is a suffix in Dhegiha and the same -pi suffix we find so well > represented in Dakotan nouns turns up there. So the glottalized > fricative found originally in Dhegiha is historically most likely a > composite with a morpheme boundary in the middle. Then the result > underwent the usual Dhegiha change: *x? > k? > ? with Kansa/Osage > retaining the middle form and Omaha-Ponca showing the last stage. > There > are plenty of other examples of this change. > > In the Comparative Dictionary files 'star' is very peculiar overall > and > hard to reconstruct. I don't have all the forms available at the > moment, > but I'll get them if anyone is interested. My recollection is that > there > are at least two quite distinct etyma reconstructible. But there > are > problems with both. I don't think that any of them can be > reconstructed > with 'man' as a component though. > > Bob > > Is it from some other > > earlier use or some other morph. Does the wicha- occur in any > > other Siouan reflexes for 'star'. It is tempting to think of it > as having > > something to do with spirits of the dead, but I'm sure that's far- > > fetched. > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Feb 20 15:04:13 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:04:13 -0700 Subject: Stars, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Richard L. Dieterle wrote: > Here is what I have in WI on star, sun, moon: ... > wiragos^ke, pl. wiragos^kera star [Gatschet] > wirakos^kera star, stars ("sun-suspended") [Dorsey] > wiragus^kera (we-dah-goose-ka-dah) stars [Th. George] > Wiragos^ge HaNke Dirani the North Star (Polaris), "the Star > that does not Move." (cf. Crow, Ihaxaz^ise, > "the Star that does not Move.") > Wiragos^ge XedenaNgere The Large Star, Morning Star > Wiragos^gew'iNga Star Woman, a personal name in the Bird Clan ... > wiragos^ke ho-ikada shooting star [Gatschet] > wirakos^keras^ibare a meteor [Dorsey] ... The reading wiiraguNs^ge, with nasal uN is from Miner. It's interesting to notice that earlier versions all have o or u. not uN. Marino (Radin) also has -gos-. This also tends to argue against the 'make' reading in *-hkax-, since it eliminates the any parallelism with -guNs-. > Dorsey's analysis of wirakos^kera as "sun-suspended" is interesting. > The nearest thing to kos^ke that I can find (other than skunk words) is > gus, "rope." I had rejected the XIXth century translations of "sun" for > wi, and had replaced them by "orb." However, I can find no instance of > a word like this for a non-luminous orb (like a ball), so I will adopt > "luminary" after Koontz. I borrowed this usage from someone! From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Feb 20 15:29:30 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:29:30 -0700 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN In-Reply-To: <20010220032651.3586.qmail@web120.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Constantine Xmelnitski wrote: > As is known, Lakhota dialect of Dakotan has two > variations of aspirated stops : weak (h-like), and > strong (x-like). ... In Dhegiha Osage has velar aspiration with p, t and k, i.e., not with c (ts), which occurs instead of t before i, e, u. If velar aspiration occurs before i, e and, I think, u, i.e., after p and k, but not t, the velar is x palatalized to s^. So, ps^e, che, ks^e, ps^i, chi, ks^i, but aNpxaN, petxaN, (a)kxa. Of course, the bulk of Dakotan aspirates and stop-stop cluster correspond to tense stops in Dhegiha, and these manifest in Osage as preaspirates, which lack velarization. Only a small percentage of Dakotan aspirates correspond to (the few) aspirates in Dhegiha languages. In fact Dhegiha th generally matches h in Dakotan (cf. pehaN for petxaN above). MaNtho 'grizzly' has th in both. I believe Kaw is generally like Osage in having velar aspiration (except for having c^ affrication instead of c affrication), but Omaha-Ponca and Quapaw have laryngeal aspiration. I gather that velar aspiration also occurs in some other families, e.g., Athabascan, but I have never tracked down the details. Apart from this, in Indo-European, compare High German pf, ts, kx as developments of ph, th, kh. You might call this "homorganic" aspiration. I have also seen a discussion of ancient Greek corrspondence sets with ps, ts, ks corresponding to aspirated ph, th, kh elsewhere in ancient Greek, suggesting a sort of "sibilant" aspiration. From rwd0002 at unt.edu Tue Feb 20 15:46:41 2001 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:46:41 -0600 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Regarding velar aspiration in Siouan. As John points out it is indeed common in Athabaskan. In Southern Athabaskan or Apachean, the aspirated t's in front of back vowels are more or less velar. Hoijer wrote that Western Apache, (one of the Apachean languages) had no velar aspiration, but his field notes on this language show that it occurs even there, even though not as consistently as in Navajo or Chiricahua. Another place where this phenomenon occurs: the Northwest Mandarin Chinese dialect of Qinghai has strong velar aspiration of aspirated stops. Greetings, Willem J. de Reuse Department of English University of North Texas From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Tue Feb 20 20:45:17 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:45:17 -0600 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN Message-ID: > I believe Kaw is generally like Osage in having velar aspiration (except for having c^ > affrication instead of c affrication), but Omaha-Ponca and Quapaw have laryngeal aspiration. No, Kaw just has the [h] aspiration, also Quapaw. Osage stands alone in Dhegiha in having [x] aspiration at all. [x] aspiration appears to be recorded for Biloxi and Ofo however (and possibly Tutelo in the Dorsey transcriptions). I don't think that Dakotan [x] and [h] aspiration have distinct historical sources, but the set of correspondences that we reconstruct as *ph, *th, *kh in a few words might have involved C[x] clusters. But this would only be in a few words like 'grizzly'. Most Dakotan th go back to what we reconstruct as *ht. There are fossilized morphophonemic rules in Dakotan that show h-C > Ch. bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 21 07:45:16 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:45:16 -0700 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN In-Reply-To: <3A92D75D.2030706@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, RLR wrote: > No, Kaw just has the [h] aspiration, also Quapaw. Osage stands alone in > Dhegiha in having [x] aspiration at all. [x] aspiration appears to be > recorded for Biloxi and Ofo however (and possibly Tutelo in the Dorsey > transcriptions). I don't think that Dakotan [x] and [h] aspiration have > distinct historical sources, ... Nor I. > but the set of correspondences that we reconstruct as *ph, *th, *kh in a > few words ... In other words the postaspirates or aspirates proper that show up as aspirates in Dhegiha, instead of tense stops (hC or CC, depending on the dialect) (and merge with the unaspirated series in IO and Wi). Example PMV Teton Omaha IO Wi 'grizzly' *maNtho maNtho maNc^hu maNtho maNc^o (or *maNtxo ?) 'fold' *pethaN pehaN bethaN -wedaN weejaN 'arrive here' *thi hi thi ji jii 'house' *hti thi tti c^hi c^ii 'ruminant' *hta tha tta tha c^aa > might have involved C[x] clusters. But this would only be in a > few words like 'grizzly'. About the only case of *th (as opposed to *ht) that appears as th in Dakotan instead of h. > Most Dakotan th go back to what we reconstruct as *ht. There are > fossilized morphophonemic rules in Dakotan that show h-C > Ch. Bob here refers to his discovery that the -kha and -kka derivational suffixes in Dakotan and Dhegiha (in OP form), respectively, derive from old h-final roots plus the -ka suffix. JEK From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 21 18:42:52 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:42:52 -0600 Subject: [Fwd: poison ivy] Message-ID: From the SSILA Newsletter: -------- Original Message -------- I am writing a popular article on poison ivy and poison oak and I would like to provide a list of a few Native American names for these plants. I need to know the words and what the phrase or word means. Any assis- tance readers of the SSILA Bulletin can give would be greatly appreciated. --Spencer Tomb Kansas State University (astomb at ksu.edu) In the interests of fostering good relations between the KU Jayhawks and the Purple Pussies of Kansas Straight University, I checked out 'poison ivy' in the several Siouan language dictionaries in my computer. Those of you reading this on the Siouan Listserv might be willing to contribute the relevant terms to his study. He is not a list member, so using his email address, above, will get the info to him. Kansa, sometimes called Kaw, the Siouan language formerly spoken along the Kansas River in eastern KS, used the compound "mahin-ppizhi" for poison ivy, where "mahin" is the term normally used for grass or weeds and "ppizhi" is the verb 'to be bad'. This is from my field notes on the language. Winnebago, a Siouan language originally spoken in E. central Wisconsin, now spoken in central Wisc. and in NE Nebraska, uses the term "xa~a~win-shishik" where the letter "x" is a gutteral fricative like German "ch" and the tildes (~) should be written on top of the preceding "a" vowels to indicate nasalization. "Xa~a~win" is also 'grass' and "shik" is 'to be bad'. So the compound has essentially the same meaning as the Kaw one did, but the words used are different. The initial syllable of shik 'to be bad' has been reduplicated in 'poison ivy' for semantic effect. This term is taken from the "Winnebago Field Lexicon" by Kenneth Miner, MS, 1984. Good luck with other terms. I have no separate terms for poison oak/sumac -- just ivy. Bob Rankin Professor of Linguistics University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045-2140 From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 21 19:25:16 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:25:16 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: poison ivy] In-Reply-To: <3A940C2C.5020500@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, RLR wrote: > From the SSILA Newsletter: > -------- Original Message -------- > I am writing a popular article on poison ivy and poison oak and I would > like to provide a list of a few Native American names for these plants. > I need to know the words and what the phrase or word means. Any assis- > tance readers of the SSILA Bulletin can give would be greatly appreciated. > > --Spencer Tomb > Kansas State University > (astomb at ksu.edu) ... > Good luck with other terms. I have no separate terms for poison > oak/sumac -- just ivy. It may be worth pointing out that there is no reason to expect terms in a given language, English or Siouan, to map one-for-one to Linnaean species, even when all the species in question occur locally. Modern field guide usage tends to suggest that there is one (or sometimes more) popular term in each language for each Linnaean species, but this is an artificial assumption of Linnaean taxonomic principles in non-Linnaean systems. John Koontz From mosind at yahoo.com Wed Feb 21 19:28:46 2001 From: mosind at yahoo.com (Constantine Xmelnitski) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:28:46 -0800 Subject: [Fwd: poison ivy] Message-ID: Here's what Buechel's Lakota-English dictionary search on "ivy" yields: wikhos^ka thaphez^uta, n. The small western poison ivy. Rhus rydbergii.The sumac family. When touched it causes irritations, hence the name. It is not a medicine plant. Cf. wikhos^ka. wikhos^ka, n. A venereal disease of women. cha~iyuwi iyecheca, n. The Virginia creeper, the woodbine, the false grape, the American ivy or the five-leaved ivy. The vine family. The roots are bad. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 21 20:34:17 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:34:17 -0600 Subject: [Fwd: poison ivy] Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: >> Good luck with other terms. I have no separate terms for poison >> oak/sumac -- just ivy. > > It may be worth pointing out that there is no reason to expect terms in a > given language, English or Siouan, to map one-for-one to Linnaean species, This is true, but at least we wouldn't expect multiple overlaps with harmless species. I noted that in at least one language there was an interjection listed with the notation approximately "as when someone notices that he has gotten poison ivy." Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 21 21:45:09 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:45:09 -0700 Subject: More on Winnebago Moon (was Re: [Fwd: poison ivy]) In-Reply-To: <20010221192846.20892.qmail@web123.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Constantine Xmelnitski wrote: > Here's what Buechel's Lakota-English dictionary search > on "ivy" yields: > wikhos^ka thaphez^uta, n. The small western poison > ivy. Rhus rydbergii.The sumac family. When touched it > causes irritations, hence the name. It is not a > medicine plant. Cf. wikhos^ka. > wikhos^ka, n. A venereal disease of women. Remember Winnebago wiira guNs^ge, earlier wiira gos^ge, 'moon'? And remember that in some cases aspirated stops in Dakotan or Dhegiha correspond to voiced stops in Winnebago? Dakotan khos^ka could regularly match Wi gos^ge. Perhaps wiira gos^ge could be interpreted 'pocked or blistered luminary'? Note that this meaning is perhaps implied for Dakotan khos^ka, but I'm not positive of that. I also don't know if such a form as gos^ka is attested in this sense in Winnebago, or if there is a widespread set of similar or calqued forms for venereal diseases. A cognate-like pairing could exist in Dakotan and Winnebago either by inheritence, in which case the correspondence is potentially regular, or by borrowing, in which case the adaptation might have gone in either direction. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 21 22:06:58 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:06:58 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: poison ivy] In-Reply-To: <3A942649.1000308@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, RLR wrote: > > It may be worth pointing out that there is no reason to expect terms in a > > given language, English or Siouan, to map one-for-one to Linnaean species, > > This is true, but at least we wouldn't expect multiple overlaps with > harmless species. I wouldn't expect so. We might expect several of the poisonous species to go under a single name, however, or to be regarded as subkinds of a single higher kind, perhaps including stinging nettles, etc. > I noted that in at least one language there was an interjection listed > with the notation approximately "as when someone notices that he has > gotten poison ivy." I know one in English, but it's homophonous with my term for excrement. JEK From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 21 23:18:03 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:18:03 -0600 Subject: [Fwd: poison ivy] Message-ID: Just Dakotan "axaNxaN!" in Buechel. :-) Bob > > I noted that in at least one language there was an interjection listed > > with the notation approximately "as when someone notices that he has > > gotten poison ivy." From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 21 23:33:47 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:33:47 -0600 Subject: [Fwd: poison ivy] Message-ID: > Here's what Buechel's Lakota-English dictionary search > on "ivy" yields: > wikhos^ka thaphez^uta, n. The small western poison > ivy. Rhus rydbergii.The sumac family. When touched it > causes irritations, hence the name. It is not a > medicine plant. Cf. wikhos^ka. > wikhos^ka, n. A venereal disease of women. > > cha~iyuwi iyecheca, n. The Virginia creeper, the > woodbine, the false grape, the American > ivy or the five-leaved ivy. The vine family. The roots > are bad. Symbols s^ and z^ are used for the English sounds "sh" and "zh" here. I did a computer search of Buechel for wikhoshka, ikhoshka and just khoshka. It turned up a disease of horses' hooves and also entries: khoshka' 'be affected by veneral disease' khoshkalaka 'young man' wikhoshkalaka 'young woman' While I have to admit that John's discussion of Winnebago 'moon' doesn't yet convince me that the moon was described as blistered or pockmarked (something I can only see with a telescope), the Dakotan "wikhoshkalaka" 'young woman' might have something to do with the Winnebago term and also the moon's being commonly thought of in Siouan-speaking cultures as feminine or womanly. But returning to poison ivy, the Dakotan form, kindly provided by Connie Xmelnitsky, can apparently be analyzed as: wi-khos^ka tha-phez^uta fem-VD its-plant My next question would relate to what sorts of venereal infections were extant in North America before contact. But whatever they were, the Lakota speakers are comparing them to the poison ivy rash/blistering. Bob From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Feb 22 02:03:57 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:03:57 -0600 Subject: Nebraska Message-ID: Can anyone tell me exactly what Omaha bdhaska means as used in the name of the Platte? Does it mean 'flat' in the sense 'spreading out'? Can it mean 'shallow' in any of the Siouan languages? (Of course, a widely spreading river will generally be shallow.) Thanks for any help. Alan From jggoodtracks at juno.com Thu Feb 22 03:33:13 2001 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:33:13 -0600 Subject: [Fwd: poison ivy] Message-ID: Melvin GIlmore, (his plant book), has for Poison Oak/ Ivy: Hthiwathehi (O/P), "plant that makes sore". jgt On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:28:46 -0800 (PST) Constantine Xmelnitski writes: > Here's what Buechel's Lakota-English dictionary search > on "ivy" yields: > wikhos^ka thaphez^uta, n. The small western poison > ivy. Rhus rydbergii.The sumac family. When touched it > causes irritations, hence the name. It is not a > medicine plant. Cf. wikhos^ka. > wikhos^ka, n. A venereal disease of women. > > cha~iyuwi iyecheca, n. The Virginia creeper, the > woodbine, the false grape, the American > ivy or the five-leaved ivy. The vine family. The roots > are bad. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From ioway at earthlink.net Thu Feb 22 04:04:29 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:04:29 -0700 Subject: Nebraska Message-ID: "Alan H. Hartley" wrote: > Can anyone tell me exactly what Omaha bdhaska means as used in the name > of the Platte? Does it mean 'flat' in the sense 'spreading out'? Can it > mean 'shallow' in any of the Siouan languages? (Of course, a widely > spreading river will generally be shallow.) > > Thanks for any help. > > Alan IO Nyibrashke/Nyibrathge/Nyibraxge = "nyi" water + "brathge (etc)" to be flat Platte is just German for "flat" as well -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Feb 22 05:01:27 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:01:27 -0700 Subject: Nebraska In-Reply-To: <3A94738D.3999A5F@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > Can anyone tell me exactly what Omaha bdhaska means as used in the name > of the Platte? Does it mean 'flat' in the sense 'spreading out'? Can it > mean 'shallow' in any of the Siouan languages? (Of course, a widely > spreading river will generally be shallow.) Or it could be - in fact I think it may be - Ioway-Otoe braske. It depends on what -ka represents in something like ne-bras-ka. Ne is clearly niN, which tends to suggest ka is ke. It is, of course, very difficult to tell. In any event, this is always translated 'flat' in the sources. It might be difficult to tell this from 'shallow' or 'spreading out', but the latter is supposed to be the sense of ubdhadha in Niobrara. Mark Swetland is perhaps in the best position at present to find out what other readings might be possible, or what other things could be bdhaska. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Feb 22 05:04:10 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:04:10 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: poison ivy] In-Reply-To: <20010221.215144.-443551.0.jggoodtracks@juno.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Jimm G GoodTracks wrote: > Melvin GIlmore, (his plant book), has for Poison Oak/ Ivy: > Hthiwathehi (O/P), "plant that makes sore". > jgt I think this would be xdhi= wadhe hi exudations it causes them plant JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Feb 22 05:07:58 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:07:58 -0700 Subject: Nebraska In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Koontz John E wrote: > Or it could be - in fact I think it may be - Ioway-Otoe braske. It > depends on what -ka represents in something like ne-bras-ka. Ne is > clearly niN, which tends to suggest ka is ke. It is, of course, very > difficult to tell. I should also say that, if IO, probably specifically Otoe, from the location of the Otoe village at its mouth, this would have to be in a very conservative form, e.g., with -s- where most recent speakers would have or (preaspiration of k). Also, the (predictable) palatalization of n before i, iN, e is not indicated, which may also be conservative, or simply a simplification. JEK From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Feb 22 12:25:06 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:25:06 GMT Subject: [Fwd: poison ivy] In-Reply-To: <20010221.215144.-443551.0.jggoodtracks@juno.com> Message-ID: With regard to the name cha~iyuwi iyecheca, n. The Virginia creeper, the > woodbine, the false grape, the American > ivy or the five-leaved ivy. The vine family. The roots > are bad. Does any native speaker out there know if this really is a Lakota 'name' for the plant. The literal translation of the name is 'it is like a vine or twisting plant' ie it looks like an 'explanation' rather than a name. Certain entries like this in Buechel I did not put in my English Lakota dictionary (ie I didn't put an entry for Virginia creeper), because of a suspicion that they were not really 'names' as such. I hope in a sense that I was wrong, because the more words Lakota has, the happier I will be. Bruce Date sent: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:33:13 -0600 Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: Jimm G GoodTracks To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: [Fwd: poison ivy] Melvin GIlmore, (his plant book), has for Poison Oak/ Ivy: Hthiwathehi (O/P), "plant that makes sore". jgt On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:28:46 -0800 (PST) Constantine Xmelnitski writes: > Here's what Buechel's Lakota-English dictionary search > on "ivy" yields: > wikhos^ka thaphez^uta, n. The small western poison > ivy. Rhus rydbergii.The sumac family. When touched it > causes irritations, hence the name. It is not a > medicine plant. Cf. wikhos^ka. > wikhos^ka, n. A venereal disease of women. > > cha~iyuwi iyecheca, n. The Virginia creeper, the > woodbine, the false grape, the American > ivy or the five-leaved ivy. The vine family. The roots > are bad. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Thu Feb 22 13:51:19 2001 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:51:19 -0600 Subject: Nebraska Message-ID: 22 Feb 2001 Aloha All: I've been listening in on the various conversations about poison ivy, aspiration, and stellar objects. Quite interesting. I will ask my Omaha Language class instructors about the Nebraska term. Generally I have heard the elders gloss it as "flat", but some would swing out the hand as though to simulate something spread out, too. No one specifically suggested "shallow". The Stabler lexicon listed shallow as "xe'be" I will check the Dorsey lexicon to see what he offers for xe'be. Stabler:lumber, board, floor, and tile are all glossed as "zhoNbthaska", i.e., flat wood (or could we say "to lie flat"?) Stabler: blackboard (classroom chalkboard) as "zhoNbthaska sabe" i.e., flat black wood (or could we say "to lie flat black"?) uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Lecturer Anthropology/Ethnic Studies c/o Department of Anthropology-Geography University of Nebraska Bessey Hall 132 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 Office 402-472-3455 Dept. 402-472-2411 FAX 402-472-9642 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu -----Original Message----- From: Koontz John E To: Siouan Date: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 10:49 PM Subject: Re: Nebraska >On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > >> Can anyone tell me exactly what Omaha bdhaska means as used in the name >> of the Platte? Does it mean 'flat' in the sense 'spreading out'? Can it >> mean 'shallow' in any of the Siouan languages? (Of course, a widely >> spreading river will generally be shallow.) > >Or it could be - in fact I think it may be - Ioway-Otoe braske. It >depends on what -ka represents in something like ne-bras-ka. Ne is >clearly niN, which tends to suggest ka is ke. It is, of course, very >difficult to tell. > >In any event, this is always translated 'flat' in the sources. It might >be difficult to tell this from 'shallow' or 'spreading out', but the >latter is supposed to be the sense of ubdhadha in Niobrara. > >Mark Swetland is perhaps in the best position at present to find out what >other readings might be possible, or what other things could be bdhaska. > >JEK > From ioway at earthlink.net Thu Feb 22 14:36:55 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:36:55 -0700 Subject: Nebraska Message-ID: Ok.. I am trying to get a better handle of the s/th/hk trasnformation/shift (in linguistics which term is used to describe the change in a phoneme over time rather then in a particular linguistic setting) in IOM. You say "this would have to be in a very conservative form, e.g., with -s- where most recent speakers would have or (preaspiration of k)" To make sure I understand this right, the oldest descriptions in historic word lists imply a "s" rather than a "th" and now you also see it as "x" (I am assuming in this case it is not a true "x" but as you say a preaspiration of "k"). Why do you think this change occurred and when? And what is the standard practice in word lists when wanting to show such changes and recognizing the variations in the various family dialects. My Grandma spoke only a little IO from her parents, and my Uncle John learned some from them as well and so I have been able to collect a short list of words and expressions from that source as well. For example they were given "Hinuu" as meaning "I'm afraid." One strange variation in pronunciation was that "baxoje" was pronounced "paxoji"/"paxoci"/"pakoci" in our family dialect from my Grandmother's Mother's side. Lance Koontz John E wrote: > On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Koontz John E wrote: > > Or it could be - in fact I think it may be - Ioway-Otoe braske. It > > depends on what -ka represents in something like ne-bras-ka. Ne is > > clearly niN, which tends to suggest ka is ke. It is, of course, very > > difficult to tell. > > I should also say that, if IO, probably specifically Otoe, from the > location of the Otoe village at its mouth, this would have to be in a very > conservative form, e.g., with -s- where most recent speakers would have > or (preaspiration of k). Also, the (predictable) > palatalization of n before i, iN, e is not indicated, which may also be > conservative, or simply a simplification. > > JEK -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Feb 22 14:54:26 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:54:26 -0600 Subject: Nebraska Message-ID: Thanks to everyone for the help. So... IO n(y)iN-braske 'flat river' ' ' ' ' ' ' Eng. Nebraska Fr. Platte ' ' Eng. Platte Alan P.S. Is someone writing a Siouan etymological (or at least comparative) dictionary, and when will it be published? Something has to come of all this knowledge floating around! From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Feb 22 15:37:56 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:37:56 -0700 Subject: Nebraska In-Reply-To: <3A952822.D2E4EB11@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > Thanks to everyone for the help. So... > > IO n(y)iN-braske 'flat river' > ' ' > ' ' > ' ' > Eng. Nebraska Fr. Platte > ' > ' > Eng. Platte It's probably impossible to completely eliminate the Omaha-Ponca, Kaw, Osage, etc., forms from consideration, as they are all pretty similar. They might be cognates, though they're probably just calques among languages with closely cognate vocabulary. Note, however, that Dorsey says the river is called Ni TtaNga 'Big Water' in Ponca usage. More northerly languages seem to use variations on 'Shell River'. Pawnee has Kickatus (c = ts) also water + flat or Flat Water. The pattern of referring to large streams as 'waters' is certainly common in Mississippi Valley Siouan languages and seems to occur in Pawnee (Caddoan) as well. The Siouan languages do have various words for 'stream' applied to smaller streams, cf. OP wac^his^ka ~ wathis^ka, and, in fact, the Platte is rated a watpa(daN) ~ wakpa(la) in Dakotan. It might be interesting to look at comparative hydronymy in the area, but I'm not sure if the appropriate resources exist. > P.S. Is someone writing a Siouan etymological (or at least comparative) > dictionary, and when will it be published? Something has to come of all > this knowledge floating around! A comparative dictionary is in the works (Contacts David Rood, Robert Rankin, Richard Carter, Wesley Jones). JEK From daynal at nsula.edu Thu Feb 22 18:22:15 2001 From: daynal at nsula.edu (Dayna Bowker Lee) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:22:15 -0800 Subject: [Fwd: poison ivy] Message-ID: I'm a lurker on your list - not a linguist, just an anthropologist interested in language use - so forgive me if the format is incorrect on the following words. In Caddo: poison ivy = dan?nin? cloud = kah-cha-ch?-ah sky = kah-cha-tuh Caddo linguists out there can discuss the etymology. I just thought I'd throw the words out for consideration. Dayna Lee From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Feb 22 16:22:00 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 09:22:00 -0700 Subject: Nebraska In-Reply-To: <3A952406.CC81E0A1@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > Ok.. I am trying to get a better handle of the s/th/hk trasnformation/shift > (in linguistics which term is used to describe the change in a phoneme over > time rather then in a particular linguistic setting) in IOM. Usually they're called shifts or changes or developments. Incidentally, the importance of stating that the IO in the word Nebraska is conservative is that if one works on a basis of modern IO pronunciation one has to eliminate IO as a source, since Nebraska doesn't show --t^ke or -hke or, less significantly, nyi. Knowing that earlier speakers could have used -ske or even ni makes it possible to see IO as a source here. > You say "this would have to be in a very conservative form, e.g., with > -s- where most recent speakers would have or (preaspiration > of k)" > > To make sure I understand this right, the oldest descriptions in historic > word lists imply a "s" rather than a "th" and now you also see it as "x" (I > am assuming in this case it is not a true "x" but as you say a preaspiration > of "k"). In this case the "conservative" or oldest state is primarily indicated by the situation in IO's closest relatives, e.g., Winnebago, the Dhegiha dialects, and the Dakotan dialects. Mandan might be the next closest after that and it is unique in somehow having managed to reverse s and s^. However, even though IO is particularly poorly - infrequently and not very thoroughly - recorded, it is clear that in early times it did have s/s^/x (etc.) more or less in synchrony with the other languages. As the s/s^/x set of sounds participate in a pattern of sound symbolic alternations, sometimes one language has s or s^ or x instead of another of these sounds anyway. I think the usual characterization of the alternations (from Dakotan) is s = diminutive, s^ = regular, x = augmentative. However, as all of the sounds seems to occur as the basic sound in some word or another perhaps it's safer to say that shifting the sound in a word one direction or another could make the sense of the word relatively more augmented or diminuated. In any event, s is regular in a set like *ska 'white' or *sap(e) 'black, or s^ in *s^uNk(e) 'dog', x in *xaNt(e) 'grass' and so on, and IO must have inherited such an arrangement originally, and also attests something like it, especially in earlier recordings. However, in some fairly early recordings and especially in modern recordings we find s shifted to , and s shifted to s^ (). Also, we find sk shifted to hk, not really xk. Linguists can distinguish several different s and s^ pronunciations in various languages of the world, e.g., Californian languages often distinguish two s's, but I don't think even modern Siouanists tend to comment on which are in use in particular Siouan languages, and the historical materials don't permit us to determine things like this either. > Why do you think this change occurred and when? The usual explanations for sound changes of this sort revolve around unconscious individual human efforts to express group solidarity by adopting (progressively exagerating) certain perceived markers of group identity, in this case pronunciation norms. A fairly common popular explanation of this is "immitation of the speech of some prestigious individual," though this is probably actually seldom the case. In fact, members of a group are all immitating each other in ways that set them apart from outsiders. In some cases there might be a pattern of trying to avoid a pronunciation characteristic of an out group. The shift in IO fricatives seems to have been ongoing since at least the 1700s. I should add, of course, that there is nothing deficient or corrupt about the more modern pronunciations. One might argue that from an IO point of view they would be probably "better" or more characteristically and satisfyingly IO, at least in more recent time. > And what is the standard practice in word lists when wanting to show > such changes and recognizing the variations in the various family > dialects. Depending on the situation people may suppress the differences in favor of some "standard" or "prestige" norm (not necessarily the conservative variant), or go into great detail listing the variants, ideally (in dictionary contexts) listing the sources for the variants (ideally a person, place and time). > My Grandma spoke only a little IO from her parents, and my Uncle John > learned some from them as well and so I have been able to collect a > short list of words and expressions from that source as well. For > example they were given "Hinuu" as meaning "I'm afraid." One strange > variation in pronunciation was that "baxoje" was pronounced > "paxoji"/"paxoci"/"pakoci" in our family dialect from my Grandmother's > Mother's side. The unaspirated series of stops is often voiced in IO (as in some other Siouan languages) and there's tendency among linguists recently to write bdj^g for the unaspirated stops to reflect this. Still, for some speakers (probnably originally certain localities) lack of aspiration would not be supplemented by voicing, so the sound would be ptc^k. This would still be distinct from the aspirates ph/th/c^k/kh. To English ears the difference between, say, p and ph is a hard one to hear, but it's real enough in most Siouan languages. Far more real than b vs. p. Linguists (mainly Bob Rankin, though I follow his lead) recently have been trying to encourage writing the aspirates in IO as ph, etc., in IO citations in spite of having gone over to writing the inaspirates as b, etc. There used to be a tendency to write either p vs. ph or b vs. p, allowing p in the second case to indicate the aspirate. Just writing p seems simpler, but it is fraught with pitfalls. Mainly it is potentially confusing both to non-Siouanists and to speakers of the language interested in writing it. The problem is that since both b and p occur as pronunciations of "unaspirated p," both b and p occur indifferently in the sources as ways of writing this sound, while p and ph occur indifferently as ways of writing ph. This leads to a constant state of uncertainty as to whether a given word in IO has an aspirated stop or not. In fact, it leads to uncertainty as to whether IO even has aspiration, which it does. JEK From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Thu Feb 22 16:37:03 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:37:03 -0600 Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: poison ivy]] Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Jimm G GoodTracks wrote: > Melvin GIlmore, (his plant book), has for Poison Oak/ Ivy: > Hthiwathehi (Omaha/Ponca), "plant that makes sore". > jgt I think this would be xdhi= wadhe hi exudations it causes them plant ---------------------- Clearly fits the meaning of the Kaw cognate "xli", which means 'running sore(s)'. And I think I should clarify my last message of yesterday regarding the analysis of Lakota "wikhoshka". khoshka' have a venereal infection khoshka'laka young man wikho'shkalaka young woman The analysis I sent yesterday would be the folk analysis. wi-kho'shka (+its plant/weed) fem-infection While it's possible that the "wi-" here is the feminine morpheme (as in Wi-nona), the actual morphology here was probably: wa + i + kho'shka ABS INS infected where ABS is the noun-forming "absolutive" prefix in Siouan, INS is the instrumental "i" prefix followed by the intransitive verb stem. In reality, then, the form means 'what-infects its plant', a fairly typical Siouan grammatical construction. And re Bruce's note on descriptive natural history terminology: After Frank Siebert published his paper on Algonquian animal/plant names in an attempt to isolate the proto-Algonquian homeland, I set about searching for similar terms/evidence in Siouan. While it's true that the oldest, most widespread animal terms seem to be "names" (i.e., unanalyzable), a huge number of natural history terms that Siouan speakers clearly knew about do seem to be transparently descriptive. What this suggested to me was that perhaps Siouan speakers had, in relatively recent times, migrated from one climatic/floral/faunal zone into a new one which had many different trees, plants and animals. Thus the (more recent) descriptive terminology. Other interpretations are probably possible. And some languages just seem to "like" descriptive terms. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Koontz John E Subject: Re: [Fwd: poison ivy] Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:04:10 -0700 (MST) Size: 1518 URL: From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Thu Feb 22 16:55:31 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:55:31 -0600 Subject: Nebraska Message-ID: > > Ok.. I am trying to get a better handle of the s/th/hk transformation/shift > ... it is clear that in early times it did have s/s^/x > (etc.) more or less in synchrony with the other languages. Ted Grimm did a talk on this about 3 years ago at the Siouan Conference. He did find early transcriptions with "s" in place of "theta" (th). I don't remember his dates/sources off the top of my head. Maybe he is reading the list...? > The usual explanations for sound changes of this sort revolve around > unconscious individual human efforts to express group solidarity by > adopting (progressively exagerating) certain perceived markers of > group identity, in this case pronunciation norms. Labov (his 1994 book) has finally admitted that "imitation" in any real sense is only a characteristic of a relatively few sound changes and that most (as we've known since the 1880's) are blind, fortuitous and no respecters of meaning. No sound change begins for any sort of sociolinguistic reason. All have to do with the shape and movements of the human articulatory and perceptual apparatus (the mouth, tongue, teeth, larynx, etc.) AFTER the change has already taken place, however, it can be diffused from person to person, group to group via immitation. This is what linguists have traditionally called "dialect borrowing". And as John points out, at that point it can involve the notion of "prestige" (tho that doesn't necessarily refer to class distinctions). My lecture for the day. ;-) Bob From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Feb 22 17:07:23 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:07:23 GMT Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: poison ivy]] In-Reply-To: <3A95402F.13F092A3@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: re Bob's reply to my note. Yes I can understand descriptive names, things like for instance 'bindweed' kimimila thawanah^ca (butterfly flower) which I suppose is because it looks like a butterfly or butterflies like it and would also think of as a 'name' or 'maple' chanhasaN (light bark tree) which describe the plant in terms of something else, but a plant name meaning 'it resembles another plant' seems somehow uny such examples occur in other languages. Bruce PS in the Middle East some of the new plants have the designation 'European' they call 'potatoes' apples of the erath (Turkish yer elmasi, Persian sib zamini) and in Persian tomatoe is 'European (Frankish) plum (goje farangi), starwberry is 'European mulberry' (tut farangi). Okra or egg plant among Arabian bedouins takes the persian Badhenjan and reanalyzes it as Beedh Jann (Jinn egg). Date sent: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:37:03 -0600 Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: RLR To: astomb at ksu.edu, Siouan list Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: poison ivy]] And re Bruce's note on descriptive natural history terminology: After Frank Siebert published his paper on Algonquian animal/plant names in an attempt to isolate the proto-Algonquian homeland, I set about searching for similar terms/evidence in Siouan. While it's true that the oldest, most widespread animal terms seem to be "names" (i.e., unanalyzable), a huge number of natural history terms that Siouan speakers clearly knew about do seem to be transparently descriptive. What this suggested to me was that perhaps Siouan speakers had, in relatively recent times, migrated from one climatic/floral/faunal zone into a new one which had many different trees, plants and animals. Thus the (more recent) descriptive terminology. Other interpretations are probably possible. And some languages just seem to "like" descriptive terms. Bob Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Thu Feb 22 18:21:45 2001 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:21:45 -0600 Subject: more "flat" versus "shallow" Message-ID: 22 Feb 2001 Aloha all: Looking at the Fletcher and La Flesche collection of Omaha names for streams and rivers: Ni'xebe te.....Shallow Water.....Bayer Creek, Iowa 1911:92 versus Ni btha'cka ke....Flat River....Platte river 1911:90 Note: c = c-cedilla with the sound of s uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Lecturer Anthropology/Ethnic Studies c/o Department of Anthropology-Geography University of Nebraska Bessey Hall 132 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 Office 402-472-3455 Dept. 402-472-2411 FAX 402-472-9642 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Feb 22 18:27:50 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:27:50 GMT Subject: Lakota names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: re Bob's point about Lakota names and their often descriptive nature, that is an interesting point about them having moved into a new area with different flora and fauna. I'm sure that is much like the other case of having to deal with new objects which a foreign group have brought in, like the Lakota use of maza 'iron' or wakhaN 'mysterious' as a component of their names for many was^icu items. I sometimes wonder about a parallel point with regard to Lakota which is that so many of their words are morphologically analyzable into components which still have a meaning and can be thought to contribute to the new item. Things like chegnake 'loin cloth' (che 'loins', gnaka 'put'), chuwignaka 'woman's dress' (che ditto ?, wi 'fem?, gnaka 'put'), chaNksa 'club' (chaN 'wood', ksa 'break'), hanpos^pu 'doll' . One would think that clothes, clubs and dolls would be old in the culture yet they have morphologically analyzable names. It may just be that as Bob says, some languages do it that way.Maybe these have replaced earlier monomorphemic elements. Maybe they were originally picturesque epithets, but then became the main words. Do these correspond to similar things in other Siouan languages? This is a thing I've often wondered about. I leave it with you over there on the other side of the Atlantic. I'm going home for dinner. Have a nice day. Bruce Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From mosind at yahoo.com Thu Feb 22 18:28:48 2001 From: mosind at yahoo.com (Constantine Xmelnitski) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:28:48 -0800 Subject: wa-i-khoshka? Message-ID: RLR: >The analysis I sent yesterday would be the folk analysis. > >wi-kho'shka (+its plant/weed) >fem-infection > >While it's possible that the "wi-" here is the feminine morpheme (as in >Wi-nona), the actual morphology here was probably: > >wa + i + kho'shka >ABS INS infected > --Guess that wa+i -> wi- coalescence should shift the stress to the initial syllable (as is in most (all?) other cases). Yet the entry in Buechel's dictionary has the stress according to Dakota Accent Rule: wikho'shka. By the way, I couldn't find any entry in Riggs Dakota-English dictionary (2nd ed.) with definition containing the word "ivy". The word for sumac is "chaNzi" - wood-yellow. Riggs has two entries for "venereal": k(h)oshka' (Teton), khomashka, to be affected with the venereal disease: i.q. che xli, and wik(h)os^ka, young woman. WJC remarks: "This word, like kos^ka, had a bad meaning in Teton and should be avoided: wis^aN yazaN, "a woman who is kos^ka, or affected with the venereal disease." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Feb 22 19:21:31 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:21:31 -0600 Subject: Baxoce Message-ID: > that "baxoje" was pronounced "paxoji"/"paxoci"/"pakoci" in our family dialect Lance, These are the variants I've found in my OED work, normalized orthographically (by me, a non-Siouanist, so beware!) All but the first are from English-language docs. paxote (French 1673, Fr. 1776) paxoje (1825, 1843) paxoce (1853, 1885) paxoci (1854) pakoTe (1877; T = theta) Alan From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Thu Feb 22 20:09:08 2001 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:09:08 -0600 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN Message-ID: I've noticed a very "strong" aspiration, verging on x, in Ponca after t before low back vowels, for instance in the word for 'Arapaho': maxpi' atHaN. One speaker I work with says this means "standing on the clouds," (verb tHaN). By the way, what is the etiquette when referring to speakers of a language we're studying? Should we protect their privacy by not mentioning their names or should we give them credit for their valuable assistance? Kathy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 9:29 AM Subject: Re: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN > On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Constantine Xmelnitski wrote: > > As is known, Lakhota dialect of Dakotan has two > > variations of aspirated stops : weak (h-like), and > > strong (x-like). ... > > In Dhegiha Osage has velar aspiration with p, t and k, i.e., not with c > (ts), which occurs instead of t before i, e, u. If velar aspiration > occurs before i, e and, I think, u, i.e., after p and k, but not t, the > velar is x palatalized to s^. So, ps^e, che, ks^e, ps^i, chi, ks^i, but > aNpxaN, petxaN, (a)kxa. Of course, the bulk of Dakotan aspirates and > stop-stop cluster correspond to tense stops in Dhegiha, and these manifest > in Osage as preaspirates, which lack velarization. Only a small > percentage of Dakotan aspirates correspond to (the few) aspirates in > Dhegiha languages. In fact Dhegiha th generally matches h in Dakotan (cf. > pehaN for petxaN above). MaNtho 'grizzly' has th in both. I believe Kaw > is generally like Osage in having velar aspiration (except for having c^ > affrication instead of c affrication), but Omaha-Ponca and Quapaw have > laryngeal aspiration. > > I gather that velar aspiration also occurs in some other families, e.g., > Athabascan, but I have never tracked down the details. > > Apart from this, in Indo-European, compare High German pf, ts, kx as > developments of ph, th, kh. You might call this "homorganic" aspiration. > I have also seen a discussion of ancient Greek corrspondence sets with ps, > ts, ks corresponding to aspirated ph, th, kh elsewhere in ancient Greek, > suggesting a sort of "sibilant" aspiration. > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Feb 22 21:01:09 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:01:09 -0700 Subject: Baxoce In-Reply-To: <3A9566BB.A1CDCF8F@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: > > that "baxoje" was pronounced "paxoji"/"paxoci"/"pakoci" in our family dialect > > Lance, > > These are the variants I've found in my OED work, normalized > orthographically (by me, a non-Siouanist, so beware!) All but the first > are from English-language docs. > > paxote (French 1673, Fr. 1776) > paxoje (1825, 1843) > paxoce (1853, 1885) > paxoci (1854) > pakoTe (1877; T = theta) > > Alan > The version with theta may involve some sort of confusion over the meaning of a symbol, as theta would not be expected. C-cedilla was used by Dorsey (BAE?) and LaFlesche for theta, but was used in Boas's Ponca Sketch for edh, in lieu of Dorsey's cent-sign. I think Dorsey used the cent-sign because the Government Printing Office of his day lacked an edh in its fonts. Boas used c-cedilla because the Canadian printer didn't have a cent-sign. In this case it seems likely that a c^ (or ts^) was meant. It's interesting that the earliest forms also lack the affrication of t before e. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Feb 22 21:05:36 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:05:36 -0700 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN In-Reply-To: <000801c09d0b$514a5180$600aed81@9afl3> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Kathleen Shea wrote: > I've noticed a very "strong" aspiration, verging on x, in Ponca after t > before low back vowels, for instance in the word for 'Arapaho': maxpi' > atHaN. One speaker I work with says this means "standing on the clouds," > (verb tHaN). I'm pretty sure Fletcher & LaFlesche give maxpiattu 'blue sky', which I think must be loosely adapted from Dakotan maxpiyatho 'blue sky'. Regularly Omaha would have maxpittu and Dakotan would have a velar aspiration that might underlie the Ponca reanalysis. I take it that velarized aspiration occurs in other words, too, though? > By the way, what is the etiquette when referring to speakers of a language > we're studying? Should we protect their privacy by not mentioning their > names or should we give them credit for their valuable assistance? I'm not sure about convention, but perhaps it should depend on the speaker's views? From mosind at yahoo.com Thu Feb 22 21:18:28 2001 From: mosind at yahoo.com (Constantine Xmelnitski) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:18:28 -0800 Subject: Distant kins & -shit- :-) Message-ID: Dear Siouanists: I have three questions on Siouan kinship terms. 1. What are the terms for greatgrand- fathers/mothers,and 2. What are the terms for distant relatives in eachgeneration. The possible ways out could be: 1) Using composite constructions, like "niyate txunkashitku", your-father's his-grandfather, orperhaps, Maxpiya Luta txakozhakpaku atewaye - Cloud-Redhis-grandchild father-I-have.for 2) Spreading closely-related kinsmen terms for distant ones, as: all the men in my generation, not recursively defined as my brothers - are called cousins if they are blood relations, and brothers-in-law if they are relatives by marriage. Possible hint testifying that Soln #2 can be true is the definition of Father-in-law (in Buechel's Lakota Grammar as I recall): "Father-in-law and other men in his generation, who are relatives of the spouse" John Koontz wrote me on Jan 22, 1999 in this regard: "There's a paper (unpublished, I think) by Richard Lungstrum which shows how the various Siouan systems all work to make it normal to use the same terms for everyone of a given sex and generation in the group of people one normally hangs out with." 3. Also, talking about the -shi(t)- suffix, he wrote: "There's a suffix -shi(t)- that applies to Dakotankinship terms that (as I recall) refer to classifications that one can't marryinto, or, to be more accurate, wouldn't dream of having sex with." --Yet the system of kinship terms seems to have obscured that meaning. Indeed, is it possible that I cannot have sex with mother-in-law (uncishi) but may with grandmother (unci). Why a man cannot dream of sex with his younger sis (txankshitku) and she CAN (he isher thibloku) :-))? Alfred WhiteHat claims that -shi- is a suffix of adoption, but that doesn't add more understanding tome. Connie. P.S. Oh, just got the message from Violet Catches: > "niyate txunkashitku" -no, niyate txokapxa, the oldest (uncle) unci txanka is great grandmother __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Feb 22 21:43:52 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:43:52 -0600 Subject: Baxoce Message-ID: > The version with theta may involve some sort of confusion over the meaning > of a symbol, as theta would not be expected. The form is from L. H. MORGAN Ancient Soc. 155 (cited in F. W. HODGE Hdbk. Amer. Indians I. (1907) 614/2), and he writes it pa-kuh'-tha (both a's have diaeresis). Alan From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Thu Feb 22 23:40:16 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:40:16 -0600 Subject: wa-i-khoshka? Message-ID: > >wa + i + kho'shka > >ABS INS infected > --Guess that wa+i -> wi- coalescence should shift the > stress to the initial syllable (as is in most (all?) > other cases). Yet the entry in Buechel's dictionary has the stress > according to Dakota Accent Rule: > wikho'shka. Thanks for the addition/correction. I agree in principle. That's how the accentuation rule works. However, if the form was indeed folk- etymologized the other way, i.e., as wi- 'female' plus khoshka 'VD', then the accent may have shifted accordingly. I really have no way to know, but it seems to me that both remain possibilities. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 23 00:20:56 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:20:56 -0700 Subject: Distant kins & -shit- :-) In-Reply-To: <20010222211828.21742.qmail@web123.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Constantine Xmelnitski wrote: > I have three questions on Siouan kinship terms. > 1. What are the terms for greatgrand- > fathers/mothers,and The pattern in Omaha is for all fathers of grandfathers to be termed grandfathers, too, and so on up. I suspect this pattern generalizes to most other Siouan systems, though perhaps the thaNka modifier system Violet mentioned occurs more widely than I realize. If I recall this properly - note that Omaha has an Omaha kinship system - all males in the mother's father's line are grandfathers and all females are grandmothers. I'm positive that all males and females below mother's brother in mother's lineage are mother's brother (uncle) and mother, respectively. Among themselves Siouan kinship systems cover a fairly large range of types. > 2. What are the terms for distant relatives in > eachgeneration. In Omaha systems the critical factor is usually the lineage, and then, within that, the generation. Some lineages have extremely simple system, e.g., mother's father's lineage. Ego's lineage has the most complex scheme. > 1) Using composite constructions, like "niyate > txunkashitku", your-father's his-grandfather, > orperhaps, Generally compounded sequences like this aren't used. From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu Fri Feb 23 00:37:45 2001 From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:37:45 -0600 Subject: wiragos^ge Message-ID: As far as I know, wiragos^ge never means "moon," but "star." From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu Fri Feb 23 00:53:34 2001 From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:53:34 -0600 Subject: Platte, Nebraska (WI) Message-ID: Here's the WI material that I've collected that pertains to Nebraska, Platte: n? par?sra Platte River. [Gatschet] paras to be broad [Marino-Radin] paras wide [Gatschet, Marino-Radin] parasdi to be broad [Marino-Radin] parasti broad (very wide) [Foster] Here, clearly, the name reflects width rather than shallowness. I can't resist mentioning here what I recollect that someone said in the Senate about William Jennings Bryant: "The senator is like the great Platte River of his native Nebraska, a mile wide at the mouth and about an inch deep." From wbgrail at hotmail.com Fri Feb 23 01:11:52 2001 From: wbgrail at hotmail.com (WENDY BRANWELL) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:11:52 -0600 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ioway at earthlink.net Fri Feb 23 03:04:23 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:04:23 -0700 Subject: Baxoce Message-ID: "Alan H. Hartley" wrote: > > The version with theta may involve some sort of confusion over the meaning > > of a symbol, as theta would not be expected. > > The form is from L. H. MORGAN Ancient Soc. 155 (cited in F. W. HODGE > Hdbk. Amer. Indians I. (1907) 614/2), and he writes it pa-kuh'-tha (both > a's have diaeresis). > > Alan That was an error, as Pakhtha/pa-kuh'tha was an archaic term for the Beaver Clan (Morgan in White 1959) and is also listed as such on the same page in Hodge (up near the top). Lance -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 23 06:23:31 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:23:31 -0700 Subject: wiragos^ge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Richard L. Dieterle wrote: > As far as I know, wiragos^ge never means "moon," but "star." Oops! Quite right. I seem to have dropped one of the facts on the floor. JEK From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Fri Feb 23 10:40:10 2001 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 04:40:10 -0600 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN Message-ID: Yes, Fletcher & LaFlesche do give the form Maxpi'ato ("blue clouds") for both Arapaho and Kiowa on page 102 of the Omaha Tribe, and the word might very well have been borrowed from Dakotan and reanalyzed, but I'm just saying that there is strong aspiration in the Ponca word (and nasalization of the last vowel). I'm not sure about other aspirated stops before low back vowels. As you know, aspirated stops are somewhat rare in Omaha-Ponca, occurring mostly in the definite articles (of which, of course, tHaN is one). The definite article akHa' doesn't have strong, velar aspiration, but I seem to recall that the word for 'elk' does: aNpHaN. (I'm using H here for a raised h, which is necessary in the standard orthography for Ponca. Omaha writing differs only in that the low back nasal vowel is written oN instead of aN in these examples. Also, I don't think that any long vowels are recorded in the Omaha standard writing currently being used.) Actually, I should have written a nasal vowel for the first vowel in the word for Arapaho since that's what I heard: maNxpi' atHaN. I'll try to be on the lookout for other examples. Kathy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 3:05 PM Subject: Re: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN > On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Kathleen Shea wrote: > > > I've noticed a very "strong" aspiration, verging on x, in Ponca after t > > before low back vowels, for instance in the word for 'Arapaho': maxpi' > > atHaN. One speaker I work with says this means "standing on the clouds," > > (verb tHaN). > > I'm pretty sure Fletcher & LaFlesche give maxpiattu 'blue sky', which I > think must be loosely adapted from Dakotan maxpiyatho 'blue sky'. > Regularly Omaha would have maxpittu and Dakotan would have a velar > aspiration that might underlie the Ponca reanalysis. I take it that > velarized aspiration occurs in other words, too, though? > > > By the way, what is the etiquette when referring to speakers of a language > > we're studying? Should we protect their privacy by not mentioning their > > names or should we give them credit for their valuable assistance? > > I'm not sure about convention, but perhaps it should depend on the > speaker's views? > > From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Fri Feb 23 11:19:46 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:19:46 GMT Subject: (Fwd) Re: Lakota names Message-ID: Following last nights contribution about complex morphology of words chuwignaka 'woman's dress' (che ditto ?, wi 'fem?, gnaka 'put') This is of course more probably chuwi 'back', gnaka 'put' ie put on and covering the back. Having started off with loins I sort of got focussed on it. But it illustrates the point just as well. Bruce Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Fri Feb 23 11:46:25 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:46:25 GMT Subject: Distant kins & -shit- :-) In-Reply-To: <20010222211828.21742.qmail@web123.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: re Constantine's message I have seen sam thunkas^ila for great grandfather and somewhere the usage of akhotaNhaN 'beyond' for 'great grandson'. Something like thakoja akhotanhan, but I'm not sure. thakoja and sam chiNca 'grandchild' can also just mean 'descendant' of course. I have three questions on Siouan kinship terms. 1. What are the terms for greatgrand- fathers/mothers,and 2. What are the terms for distant relatives in eachgeneration. P.S. Oh, just got the message from Violet Catches: > "niyate txunkashitku" -no, niyate txokapxa, the oldest (uncle) unci txanka is great grandmother __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Fri Feb 23 14:05:03 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:05:03 GMT Subject: Names In-Reply-To: <001001c09d85$000654c0$3b09ed81@9afl3> Message-ID: On the subject of names again, I recently met over here a man called Colin Taylor, who I believe David Rood has also had e-mail contact with, who has written a few things about Plains culture and history and was interested in the question of Sitting Bull's name and whether it really was 'Sitting Bull' ThathaNka Iyotake (or Iyotaka) or in fact ThathaNka IyotaNka 'Most Important Bull'. Boas and Deloria's Grammar actually favours the second meaning. I myself always thought that the presence of the -N- in the word for sitting was through the influence of Dakota which was written much earlier and might at that stage have become a sort of standard or perhaps the name was originally written down by a Santee or someone who had learnt to write Santee. Also, although I don't know any other name with Iyotake 'sitting', there are quite a few parallel names with najiN 'standing', ThathaNka Najin 'Standing Buffalo', Heh^aka NajiN 'Standing Elk', Matho H^lo NajiN 'Standing Growling Bear' etc. Also haven't ever seen iyotaN as a modifier following a noun, but usually as a emphasiser 'most' followed by a modifying verb as in iyotaN thaNka 'most great' or in the verb iyotaNla 'think important'. Also the pictograph for his name has a buffalo turned vertically as though sitting. Has anyone else heard of this controversy. Any ideas? Bruce PS a last flash of inspiration. Perhaps it could have been thathaNka iyotaN thaNka 'most great bull', like ChetaN ThaNka 'Great Hawk' Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Fri Feb 23 15:05:47 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:05:47 -0600 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN Message-ID: > I've noticed a very "strong" aspiration, verging on x, in Ponca after t > before low back vowels, for instance in the word for 'Arapaho': maxpi' > atHaN. One speaker I work with says this means "standing on the clouds," > (verb tHaN). For form I've heard is maxpi(dh)a tto 'blue clouds'. Looks like another folk reanalysis. Someone should write a paper as there seems to be a very productive folk etymology process among Siouan speakers. > By the way, what is the etiquette when referring to speakers of a language > we're studying? Should we protect their privacy by not mentioning their > names or should we give them credit for their valuable assistance? Check, you may have signed one of those statements dreamed up by the biohazard people that affirms you'll maintain their anonymity. Might not hurt to get their OK certainly. Bob From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Fri Feb 23 15:29:46 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:29:46 -0600 Subject: Ioway baxoje, paoutet, etc. Message-ID: The transcriptions of the Ioway self-identifier with apparent stop consonants, e.g. "paoutet", etc. on some early French maps, should be taken with a grain of salt. 1. French had no "ch" sound, either phonemically or phonetically and had not had since about the 12th century. They had no "dj" sound either. So they had to write any such sound they heard in some other way. In the modern language the spelling conventions tch and dj are most often used. But in the 17th century there was no real standard. 2. In Canadian dialects of French (and perhaps those in the areas of France from which most colonials came) the stops /t/ and /d/ are pronounced as affricates [ts] and [dz]. It may well be that a spelling like "Paoutet" for the Ioway represented [paxotse] and was thus the closest they could get to the ch that they heard from speakers. We would need to check for such transcriptions by English speakers. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 23 16:41:30 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:41:30 -0700 Subject: Censorship Message-ID: Somebody at ag.ch probably isn't getting all their mail? Connie's message with -s*h*i*t- in it (homophonous only, anyway, not the real thing) seems to have been quarantined, whatever that means. You can pick it up at the archive site if pseudo-scatologically inclined: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/siouan.html I assure the authorities at ag.ch that no irreparable harm will ensue from reading this message. I'm surprised Bruce Ingham's comments about loins slipped through. JEK ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:56:53 +0100 From: Systemaufsicht To: 'Koontz John E' Subject: ScanMail Message: To Sender, sensitive content found and action t aken. Trend SMEX Content Filter has detected sensitive content. Place = siouan at lists.colorado.edu; ; ; siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sender = Koontz John E Subject = Re: Distant kins & -s*h*i*t- :-) Delivery Time = February 23, 2001 (Friday) 08:56:51 Policy = Dirty Words Action on this mail = Quarantine message Warning message from administrator: Sender, Content filter has detected dirty words in e-mail. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 23 16:46:29 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:46:29 -0700 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN In-Reply-To: <001001c09d85$000654c0$3b09ed81@9afl3> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Kathleen Shea wrote: > As you know, aspirated stops are somewhat rare in Omaha-Ponca, occurring > mostly in the definite articles (of which, of course, tHaN is one). The > definite article akHa' doesn't have strong, velar aspiration, but I seem > to recall that the word for 'elk' does: aNpHaN. > Actually, I should have written a nasal vowel for the first vowel in the > word for Arapaho since that's what I heard: maNxpi' atHaN. I'll try to > be on the lookout for other examples. The only one that occurs to me at the moment would be thaN as an article in other contexts. I notice also something here that I hadn't noticed before, which is that the original "thematic" -a suffix of Da maNxpiya, superflous in OP maNxpi, has been reinterpreted as the locative a- 'on'. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 23 16:54:33 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:54:33 -0700 Subject: Ioway baxoje, paoutet, etc. In-Reply-To: <3A9681EA.4020006@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: This is very helpful. On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, RLR wrote: > The transcriptions of the Ioway self-identifier with apparent stop > consonants, e.g. "paoutet", etc. on some early French maps, should be > taken with a grain of salt. > > 1. French had no "ch" sound, either phonemically or phonetically and > had not had since about the 12th century. They had no "dj" sound either. > So they had to write any such sound they heard in some other way. In the > modern language the spelling conventions tch and dj are most often used. > But in the 17th century there was no real standard. However, I have seen both tch and dj (or, I think, dge) in early 1700s French transcriptions specifically of Ioway-Otoe. On the other hand, it occurs to me that a version with t might well be a Miami-Illinois version. > 2. In Canadian dialects of French (and perhaps those in the areas of > France from which most colonials came) the stops /t/ and /d/ are > pronounced as affricates [ts] and [dz]. It may well be that a spelling > like "Paoutet" for the Ioway represented [paxotse] and was thus the > closest they could get to the ch that they heard from speakers. We would > need to check for such transcriptions by English speakers. > > Bob From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Fri Feb 23 17:05:40 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:05:40 -0600 Subject: Ioway baxoje, paoutet, etc. Message-ID: > I have seen both tch and dj (or, I think, dge) in early 1700s > French transcriptions specifically of Ioway-Otoe. On the other hand, it > occurs to me that a version with t might well be a Miami-Illinois version. But that says nothing about the phonetic value of preceding in other transcriptions by other individuals. My point is that those spellings simply do not show that Ioway-Otoe-Missouria still had [t] before front vowels. B. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri Feb 23 18:38:27 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:38:27 -0600 Subject: Ioway baxoje, paoutet, etc. Message-ID: RLR wrote: > > The transcriptions of the Ioway self-identifier with apparent stop > consonants, e.g. "paoutet", etc. on some early French maps, should be > taken with a grain of salt. > > 1. French had no "ch" sound, either phonemically or phonetically and > had not had since about the 12th century. They had no "dj" sound either. > So they had to write any such sound they heard in some other way. In the > modern language the spelling conventions tch and dj are most often used. > But in the 17th century there was no real standard. No standard, but they did usually distinguish ch, e.g., some ethnonyms (with my OED headword forms): Apalatci (1591, Apalachee) (Hi-)attchiritiny (1737 (ay-)Archithinue) Metchigamea (1674 Michigamea; cf. Matsigamea in 1698) Natches (1690 Natchez) Natchetes (1698 Natchitoch; cf. Nachitos in 1714) Outchibiue (1668 Ojibway) Cadodacchos (1698 Kadohadacho) Chacchi-Ouma (1774 Chakchiuma; and Chachouma in 1702) Chikacha (1698 Chickasa) Chetimacha (1770 Chitimacha; and Chotymacha in 1699) Tchiacta (1708 Choctaw) Otchagra (1761 Hochunk) > 2. In Canadian dialects of French (and perhaps those in the areas of > France from which most colonials came) the stops /t/ and /d/ are > pronounced as affricates [ts] and [dz]. It may well be that a spelling > like "Paoutet" for the Ioway represented [paxotse] and was thus the > closest they could get to the ch that they heard from speakers. Judging from the above examples, I think they could have gotten closer: *Pa(h)outche. Alan From ioway at earthlink.net Sat Feb 24 02:27:24 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:27:24 -0700 Subject: Nebraska Message-ID: Platte ne-bras-ka ?flat water? (O) (Say in Thwaites (17):300) Valley a-bras-ka (O) (Say in Thwaites (17):295) River nesh-noug-a ?running water? (O) (Say in Thwaites (17):295) nischna (I) (Maximilian in Thwaites 245) Spring ne-wa-bru ?water springing up? (O) (Say in Thwaites (17):295) Lance RLR wrote: > > > Ok.. I am trying to get a better handle of the s/th/hk transformation/shift > > > ... it is clear that in early times it did have s/s^/x > > (etc.) more or less in synchrony with the other languages. > > Ted Grimm did a talk on this about 3 years ago at the Siouan Conference. > He did find early transcriptions with "s" in place of "theta" (th). I > don't remember his dates/sources off the top of my head. Maybe he is > reading the list...? > > > The usual explanations for sound changes of this sort revolve around > > unconscious individual human efforts to express group solidarity by > > adopting (progressively exagerating) certain perceived markers of > group identity, in this case pronunciation norms. > > Labov (his 1994 book) has finally admitted that "imitation" in any real > sense is only a characteristic of a relatively few sound changes and > that most (as we've known since the 1880's) are blind, fortuitous and no > respecters of meaning. No sound change begins for any sort of > sociolinguistic reason. All have to do with the shape and movements of > the human articulatory and perceptual apparatus (the mouth, tongue, > teeth, larynx, etc.) AFTER the change has already taken place, however, > it can be diffused from person to person, group to group via immitation. > This is what linguists have traditionally called "dialect borrowing". > And as John points out, at that point it can involve the notion of > "prestige" (tho that doesn't necessarily refer to class distinctions). > > My lecture for the day. ;-) > > Bob -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From ioway at earthlink.net Sat Feb 24 02:44:38 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:44:38 -0700 Subject: z to dh in Otoe Message-ID: Some examples of a change in Otoe, from z to dh in the 1820s or thereafter (note how many words were closer to Dak/Om) (by comparison the terminal "a" in maza should be pronounced "e", as in Bison cha (O) (Say in Thwaites (17):296 [should be che (Om: te, Dak: pte])..terminal "e" in these old transcriptions should be "i": [musket-]ball: ma-za-muh (O) (Say in Thwaites (17):300) [mazema = maze (iron/metal) + ma (arrow/missile)] Copper ma-za-ze (O) (Say in Thwaites (17):297) [mazezi = maze + zi (yellow)] Iron ma-za (O) (Say in Thwaites (17):297) [maze Yellow ze (O) (Say in Thwaites (17):297 [zi, now dhi] Besides the shift to dh (eth) from z... The shift is from s to th ..not only seen in the "Nebraska" post of today but also that "sewe" originally meant "black" not "dark" and that "thewe" is an example of the shift to voiced from voiceless... Black sa-wa (O) (Say in Thwaites (17):297) [sewe or sawe .. see how much closer it was to Dak sapa and Om sabe?] So rather than as Jimm suggests that sewe (dark) was derived from thewe.. the historic evidence shows that it was the other way around ..sewe (1820s) -> thewe (1900 ca.) .. man that is some awful fast linguistic change You linguists can help me understand this shift to voiced from voiceless in Chiwere with the examples here of z -> dh and s -> th .. I know this is consistent in its mechanism ..I just can't remember the terminology Lance -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Sun Feb 25 13:51:55 2001 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 07:51:55 -0600 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN Message-ID: I've been following the discussions about clouds, sky, celestial luminaries, birds, and bugs, and I'll take this opportunity to comment without trying to look up all the original postings to the Siouan list. I checked by phone with a couple of the Ponca-speaking elders I work with for some examples containing the words we've been discussing. Although, I don't think they care if I identify them, or might even prefer that I do, I'll just refer to these two elders by their initials PW (whom I call Uncle) and his sister-in-law BL (whom I call Aunt). I'll try to write the examples in "net Siouan," with the standard written form in parentheses. BL says that wagdhis^ka (wagthishka) refers to crawling bugs but does admit that it could include ladybugs. When I asked about inclusion of various flying and crawling insects, I mostly got specific names for them. She says that the word waz^i~'ga (wazhi'Nga) refers only to chickens and uses the word kkippa'j^a (kipa'ja) for any type of little flying bird. The large birds, such as birds of prey, all have specific names. She says that ma~xpi' (maNxpi') can mean 'cloud' or 'sky.' I couldn't get her to say anything in Ponca that could be translated, 'There are no clouds in the sky,' but I did get the sentence a(a)'ma~xpi (a(a)'maNxpi) 'It's cloudy.' (I'm using parentheses around the second a, because I'm unsure of the length, even though I did hear something of a glottal stop or "creaky voice" here, which often accompanies long vowels.) PW says that wagdhi's^ka (wagthi'shka) is a worm or crawling insect but could also be a lizard. He said he would use the term wagdhi's^ka gia~' (wagthi'shka giaN') for flying insects like bees, flies, and fireflies. A descriptive term, waz^i~'ga wadhi'ze (wazhiN'ga wathi'ze), literally, 'bird that picks up chickens,' applies to a chicken hawk and all kinds of hawk. For PW, waz^i'~ga (wazhiN'ga) means 'chicken, bird,' and kkippa'j^a (kipa'ja) are 'little chicks just hatched, little birds in the nest.' He says that ma~xpi' (maNxpi') is 'cloud,' and ma~(a~)'g^e (maN(aN)'ghe) is 'sky.' In a few short minutes, I got a plethora of sentences about clouds and weather, shown here with PW's translations (with parentheses used here in the Ponca words for elision): ma~xpi'i (MaNxpi'i.) 'It's cloudy.' a~'b(a) akha' ma~xpi'i (AN'ba akHa' maNxpi'i.) 'The day is cloudy.' (PW says this is like a warning, i.e. to take a coat.) a~'b(a) akha' ma~xpi' akha' (AN'ba akHa' maNxpi' akHa'.) 'It's cloudy out there, here.' (PW says that it's as though you just noticed or just stepped outside and noticed.) a~'ba th(e) ea~wa (AN'ba tHe eaNwa?) 'How's the weather out there?' (to which the first statement and the one immediately above are answers) a'ama~xpi' (A'amaNxpi'.) 'It's clouding up. (scattered clouds) ma~xpi'ia (MaNxpi'ia?) 'Is it cloudy out there?' a~'kkaz^i a'ama~xpi (AN'kazhi, a'amaNxpi.) 'No, it's just cloudy here and there.' a~ba' akha kke'dhae (ANba' akHa ke'thai.) 'It's clear out there.' a~ba' akha kke'dha a'i akha (ANba' akHa ke'tha a'i akHa.) 'It's clearing up now.' a~'ba the kke'dha (AN'ba tHe ke'tha.) 'It's clear; today is clear.' a~ba' akha kke'dha akha (ANba' akHa ke'tha akHa.) 'It's clear out there.' (just noticed) A~'ba khe da~'baga (AN'ba kHe daN'baga!) 'See about the weather!' (man speaking to one person) There is a woman's name, kke'dhawi~ (Ke'thawiN), that means something like 'calm disposition.' (Women's names often end in -wi~ (-wiN) or begin with mi~- (miN-), the latter apparently homophonous with the word for 'moon, sun.') PW says that mi~ (miN) means both 'sun' and 'moon,' although it's hard for me to tell if the vowel is really nasal or not. He differentiates the two by using the phrases a~ba mi~ (aNba miN) 'sun, day luminary' and ha~da~ mi~ (haNdaN miN) 'moon.' The word nia~'ba (niaN'ba) means 'moonlight,' according to PW. I hope these examples prove interesting. Kathy Shea ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 10:46 AM Subject: Re: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN > On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Kathleen Shea wrote: > > > As you know, aspirated stops are somewhat rare in Omaha-Ponca, occurring > > mostly in the definite articles (of which, of course, tHaN is one). The > > definite article akHa' doesn't have strong, velar aspiration, but I seem > > to recall that the word for 'elk' does: aNpHaN. > > > Actually, I should have written a nasal vowel for the first vowel in the > > word for Arapaho since that's what I heard: maNxpi' atHaN. I'll try to > > be on the lookout for other examples. > > The only one that occurs to me at the moment would be thaN as an article > in other contexts. > > I notice also something here that I hadn't noticed before, which is that > the original "thematic" -a suffix of Da maNxpiya, superflous in OP maNxpi, > has been reinterpreted as the locative a- 'on'. > > JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Feb 26 07:38:04 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 00:38:04 -0700 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN In-Reply-To: <005a01c09f32$1e2694c0$1509ed81@9afl3> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Feb 2001, Kathleen Shea wrote: Without reiterating the details, it's interesting that you get somewhat different answers from different individuals - different also from others elsewhere at other times. PW appears more in line with "traditional knowledge" among Siouanists, but BL's views show that Siouanists should beware trying to apply historical data in modern situations. There are various techniques for working with ethnotaxonymy. The one example that comes to mind is that one can investigate classifications by using possible superordinate terms in referring back to an example in the immediate context, e.g., in English: That tarantula is one ugly !spider/?bug/*animal/creature! We had to put a wire cover on the chicken coop to protect them from eagles and other birds/animals/?creatures like that. This is an iguana. A lizzard/*bug/creature like that is fairly common around here. I think you usually get better results with tests like this than by asking people to classify things themselves, especially if there's a competing system (like the Linnaean one or the English one) in the way. It's also interesting to notice the differences in gloss between the "progressive" and the non-progressive examples' glosses. > a~'b(a) akha' ma~xpi'i (AN'ba akHa' maNxpi'i.) 'The day is cloudy.' (PW > says this is like a warning, i.e. to take a coat.) > a~'b(a) akha' ma~xpi' akha' (AN'ba akHa' maNxpi' akHa'.) 'It's cloudy out > there, here.' (PW says that it's as though you > just noticed or just stepped outside and noticed.) > a~'ba the kke'dha (AN'ba tHe ke'tha.) 'It's clear; today is clear.' > a~ba' akha kke'dha akha (ANba' akHa ke'tha akHa.) 'It's clear out there.' > (just noticed) From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu Mon Feb 26 14:35:44 2001 From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 08:35:44 -0600 Subject: bear, acorn Message-ID: I wonder if anyone can answer this: which came first, the bear or the acorn? Is the bear the "acorn-eater", or is the acorn "bear-food"? Some material (Winnebago unless otherwise stated): hujera acorn [Foster] huc, huj, hunjra acorn [Gatschet] huNc bear [Marino-Radin, contemporary Hocak] hunc bear [Radin] HuNc Hikikarac Bear Clan [Gatschet] hunjera bear [Foster] huNjera bears [Lamere-Radin] HuNjga Bear, a Bear Clan personal name [Dorsey] hujijaN a bear [Radin] Ofo: uthi bear [Dorsey] Biloxi: oNt'i, oNdi bear [Dorsey] Biloxi: anyaN, udi acorn [Dorsey] From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Feb 26 15:47:36 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 08:47:36 -0700 Subject: bear, acorn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Richard L. Dieterle wrote: > I wonder if anyone can answer this: which came first, the bear or the acorn? Is > the bear the "acorn-eater", or is the acorn "bear-food"? Some material > (Winnebago unless otherwise stated): > > hujera acorn [Foster] > huc, huj, hunjra acorn [Gatschet] > huNc bear [Marino-Radin, contemporary Hocak] > hunc bear [Radin] > Ofo: uthi bear [Dorsey] > Biloxi: oNt'i, oNdi bear [Dorsey] > Biloxi: anyaN, udi acorn [Dorsey] I don't recall all the details, but the 'acorn' set is basically oral, while the '(black)bear' set is nasal. The 'bear' set is widely replaced by forms meaning 'the black one' in Mississippi Valley Siouan, cf. wasabe in Omaha-Ponca. The 'acorn' set is somewhat irregular. The Omaha-Ponca correspondent is bu'de. The two sets are not obviously related. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Feb 26 16:03:34 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 09:03:34 -0700 Subject: Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences Message-ID: Incidentally, think further about Richard Dieterle's acorn : bear comparison, one of the interesting things about the Siouan languages is that (as far as I can recall) they don't make any productive use of nasalization as a morpheme. Apart from this, some sets are nasal, some are oral, in those languages that have nasality as a vowel feature. Crow and Hidatsa don't have nasalization at all, except as a contextually determined feature of some consonants: basically initial /w/ and /r/ in Hidatsa and /w/ and /r/ in clusters in Crow, if I remember correctly. The rest of the languages come very close to have nasality only in vowels, and, secondarily, in /w/ and /r/ before nasal vowels. Each languages has various exceptions and/or complications to this. There are a few sets that are nasal in some languages and oral in others. The main instance that I recall is *hapa ~ haNpa 'ear of corn'. This is actually one reason for supposing that the set might be a loan. In Muskogean nasality is used to mark one of the verb aspects. However, the real reason for thinking of Muskogean in connection with this set is the existence of a verb habali 'to form tassels (of corn plants)' in Choctaw. I believe, however, that this form may be restricted to Choctaw(-Chickasaw) in Muskogean. Another unusual set is the one represented by wiNyaN 'woman' in Dakotan. One might expect miNyaN. The -yaN is nasalized by spreading from wiN-, so the set is actually something like wiN-y-a or wiNy-a underlyingly, depending on whether one takes the y as intrusive or part of the stem. I think the -a is essentially comparable to the "epenthetic a" in other nouns like s^uN'ka. It is, in any event, similarly deleted in older patterns of compounding for both kinds of stems. Comparisons with other branches of Siouan suggest that this stem is historically *wiNh(e), with one idea as to why it doesn't nasalize w in a number of languages being that the final h effects the nasalizability of the initial w. JEK From BARudes at aol.com Mon Feb 26 17:13:29 2001 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:13:29 EST Subject: Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences Message-ID: The situation with respect to nasality becomes much more complicated when the Catawban languages are brought into the picture. Unlike the Siouan languages, there is no evidence to suggest that /m/ and /n/ are secondary developments from *w and *r before a nasal vowel. Rather, *m, *n,*w and *r must be reconstructed as independent phonemes for Proto-Catawban,along with a contrast between long and short oral vowels and (inherently long) nasal vowels. There is good documentation to show that, in the mid-1800s, Catawba began undergoing a process of denasalization, whereby /m/ and /n/ partially and then fully denasalized before an oral vowel that was not followed by a nasal consonant. This process, when combined with loan words and a voicing of /p/ and /t/ to [b] and [d] before voiced consonants resulted in the creation of new phonemes /b/ and /d/. In addition, the phoneme *r was nasalized to /n/ in word-initial position when followed by a nasal vowel or an oral vowel plus a nasal consonant. Elsewhere, initial *r merged with /d/. A major contrast between the two documented dialects of Catawba, which Siebert named Saraw and Esaw, is that the former frequently (but not always) has nasal vowels where the latter has long oral vowels, e.g., Saraw ki~ the : Esaw ki: the; Saraw ka~ya: terrapin (accent on the first vowel) :Esaw ka:ya: terrapin (accent on the first vowel). There appear to have been similar differences between Woccon and Catawba (both dialects), as illustrated by Woccon Wittaw Rat (/wi:ta:?/) versus Catawba (both dialects) wi~ta:? rat,and Woccon Ikettau Bread and Catawba (both dialects) ikta~? baked. There are also differences in the distribution of nasal versus oral vowels between Catawba and Proto-Siouan. For example, the verb meaning give is ku~ in Catawba, versusProto-Siouan *k?u:. At present, based on the Catawba data and at least some of the irregular sets within Siouan, I lean toward the reverse of the usual explanation for the development of the nasal/oral distribution within Siouan, that is, that pre-Proto-Siouan (Proto-Siouan-Catawban) distinguish phonemes *m,*n, *r, *w and oral and nasal vowels, and that the nasalization of *r and *w to*n and *m before nasal vowels, and the denasalization of *m and *n to *w and *r before oral vowels was a Proto-Siouan innovation ? an innovation that was not implemented in the Catawban languages until the mid-1800s. Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Mon Feb 26 17:27:17 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:27:17 -0600 Subject: Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences Message-ID: The 'bear' and 'acorn' words seem just to be distinct words for very different things that accidently sound a little bit alike. The acorn word seems to be found throughout the Siouan language family in one form or another. The bear word however appears to be a borrowing from Uto-Aztecan, where similar forms are found throughout that family. Jane Hill told me a few months ago when we were discussing this, that the proto-form in U-A is *hun. There is an additional syllable in most U-A languages and a number of the languages have forms that are very much like the irregularly corresponding Siouan words for the animal. I can't regard my analysis here as totally definitive, but this is the way things look to me. > There are a few sets that are nasal in some languages and oral in others. > The main instance that I recall is *hapa ~ haNpa 'ear of corn'. This is > actually one reason for supposing that the set might be a loan. In > Muskogean nasality is used to mark one of the verb aspects. Yes, the continuative aspect. > However, the > real reason for thinking of Muskogean in connection with this set is the > existence of a verb habali 'to form tassels (of corn plants)' in Choctaw. > I believe, however, that this form may be restricted to > Choctaw(-Chickasaw) in Muskogean. I don't know if anyone has ever checked Alabama and Koasati, etc. Guess I should. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Feb 26 19:26:04 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:26:04 -0700 Subject: Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences In-Reply-To: <29.10fb78da.27cbe8b9@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Feb 2001 BARudes at aol.com wrote: > The situation with respect to nasality becomes much more complicated when the > Catawban languages are brought into the picture. Unlike the Siouan > languages, there is no evidence to suggest that /m/ and /n/ are secondary > developments from *w and *r before a nasal vowel. Rather, *m, *n,*w and *r > must be reconstructed as independent phonemes for Proto-Catawban,along with a > contrast between long and short oral vowels and (inherently long) nasal > vowels. There are a few Siouan sets that make *n seem likely, too, like *ni... 'to be in pain'. This is a sort of messy set and I don't recall the details off the top of my head. This one just never seems to act like r + VN unless the language is quite faithful to the r + VN => nVN pattern. There might well be ways around this, e.g., taking the first syllable as prepronominals (a preverb), but as neither I nor anyone else has worked out the details, and as most comparative Siouanists seem somewhat uncomfortable with a presumption of *m and *n conditioned strictly by vowel nasality, I'm taking a cautious approach. > At present, based on the Catawba data and at least some of the irregular > sets within Siouan, I lean toward the reverse of the usual explanation > for the development of the nasal/oral distribution within Siouan, that > is, that pre-Proto-Siouan (Proto-Siouan-Catawban) distinguish phonemes > *m,*n, *r, *w and oral and nasal vowels, and that the nasalization of *r > and *w to*n and *m before nasal vowels, and the denasalization of *m and > *n to *w and *r before oral vowels was a Proto-Siouan innovation > [something that got rendered as gibberish in my mailer JEK] an > innovation that was not implemented in the Catawban languages until the > mid-1800s. This wouldn't be the only case of similar developments in different Siouan(-Caddoan) languages separated by long periods of time. For example, the loss of *s^ 'second person agent' in *r-stems in Dakotan (before contact) and in Omaha-Ponca (from the 1870s). JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Feb 26 19:28:49 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:28:49 -0700 Subject: Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences In-Reply-To: <3A9A91F5.4040500@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, RLR wrote: > The bear word however appears to be a borrowing from Uto-Aztecan, where > similar forms are found throughout that family. ... 'bean' also looks like a loan from UA Another set that is strikingly similar is 'blue (~ green)', though I suppose it could be a coincidence. We are dealing with monosyllables and disyllables of fairly simple form. JEK From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Mon Feb 26 21:10:40 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 15:10:40 -0600 Subject: Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences Message-ID: > 'bean' also looks like a loan from UA "Bean" has look-alikes in UA, but it is not reconstructable there either. The family where the 'bean' word seems to be native is Yuman. > Another set that is strikingly similar is 'blue (~ green)', though I > suppose it could be a coincidence. We are dealing with monosyllables and > disyllables of fairly simple form. I don't know the 'blue' term, but 'bear' and 'bean' are at least disyllables and the semantic matches are quite precise. So we're not dealing with the same kinds of chance resemblance problems that often plague distant genetic comparisons. The interesting thing about 'bear' is that it would have to be so early, since it's all over Siouan in one form or another. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Feb 26 23:28:05 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 16:28:05 -0700 Subject: Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences In-Reply-To: <3A9AC650.7040604@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, RLR wrote: > > 'bean' also looks like a loan from UA > > "Bean" has look-alikes in UA, but it is not reconstructable there > either. The family where the 'bean' word seems to be native is Yuman. Of course, YUMAN Beans! From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Feb 26 23:40:36 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 17:40:36 -0600 Subject: Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences Message-ID: > Of course, YUMAN Beans! Have you got a good straight-man or what?! From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Feb 26 23:40:30 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 16:40:30 -0700 Subject: Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences In-Reply-To: <3A9AC650.7040604@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, RLR wrote: > I don't know the 'blue' term, ... I'll look it up. > but 'bear' and 'bean' are at least disyllables ... The last syllable of bear is sort of "non-contrastive" in Siouan, of course, though 'bean' is nicely complex (cf. OP hiNbdhiNge). It was 'blue' (or 'grue') I was thinking of, since it's something like *hto(ho) (cf. OP ttu). > and the semantic matches are quite precise. That's a good point. Short cognates are better when the correspondence of meaning (and even form) are fairly exact, as they are in all these cases ('bear' and 'bean' - 'blue' is a separate case, especially until I track down the forms). Nothing like c^e and ki, both referring to some body part, to raise suspicions, especially with lots of other stuff attached to them. > So we're not dealing with the same kinds of chance resemblance problems > that often plague distant genetic comparisons. The interesting thing > about 'bear' is that it would have to be so early, since it's all over > Siouan in one form or another. Yes, and why would one borrow a term for 'black bear'? They're all over, too. And these are two families that are not normally considered to be in heavy contact at any point in their histories. One further point is that I'm not sure how far south Ursus (Euarctos) americanus (or Ursus horribilis (?), either) ranges. And didn't you (Bob) just mention to me in some context that Jane Hill thought UA might well originate much further south than previously thought? JEK From ioway at earthlink.net Tue Feb 27 01:47:12 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 18:47:12 -0700 Subject: Bean/Bear/Circumlocution Message-ID: > I guess the derivation for bean from the southwest language groups makes > sense based in the archaeological antecedents of bean agriculture. > Shouldn't we also expect this for corn and squash? The bear derivation seems a bit farfetched.. maybe some terms for Bear are borrowed (the hunch- ones) but Bear is holoarctic, and the Cult of Bear goes back at least to Neanderthal times in Europe. I would think that any term for some words like 'water', 'sun', 'man' and 'bear' would be very old. If there is good evidence of borrowing, something very odd happened historically (or PREhistorically). Speaking of which, Bear is a classic candidate for circumlocution, due to its spiritual significance. As in OP, wathabe, 'something black' for bear. IO has some good examples of circumlocution for Bear and other game animals preserved in old stories.. 'The Sister and the Brother' was a good example of a way that was used to pass on such circumlocution, and IO also used "something black" for Bear. -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From ioway at earthlink.net Tue Feb 27 01:55:31 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 18:55:31 -0700 Subject: bear, acorn Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Richard L. Dieterle wrote: > > > I wonder if anyone can answer this: which came first, the bear or the acorn? Is > > the bear the "acorn-eater", or is the acorn "bear-food"? Some material > > (Winnebago unless otherwise stated): > > > > hujera acorn [Foster] > > huc, huj, hunjra acorn [Gatschet] > > huNc bear [Marino-Radin, contemporary Hocak] > > hunc bear [Radin] > > > Ofo: uthi bear [Dorsey] > > Biloxi: oNt'i, oNdi bear [Dorsey] > > Biloxi: anyaN, udi acorn [Dorsey] > > I don't recall all the details, but the 'acorn' set is basically oral, > while the '(black)bear' set is nasal. The 'bear' set is widely replaced > by forms meaning 'the black one' in Mississippi Valley Siouan, cf. wasabe > in Omaha-Ponca. The 'acorn' set is somewhat irregular. The Omaha-Ponca > correspondent is bu'de. The two sets are not obviously related. > > JEK Interestingly, IO is bu'je .. which is also slang for the head of the penis.. which I guess does look like an acorn ...of course there was a trickster story that had him putting his penis under a log to get at a chipmunk that was taunting the size of his equipment.. the chipmunk bit off the member bit by bit, each bit becoming a different plant, and the head became an acorn! -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From ioway at earthlink.net Tue Feb 27 01:59:17 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 18:59:17 -0700 Subject: bear, acorn Message-ID: Also, can anyone make sense of the Bear terms.. in IO, we have wathewe (the black one) only in a hunting-teaching song (Sister and Brother).. while the terms are variously mahto or munje (and variants of each).. I tend to see mahto as Ursus arctos (Ursus horribilis etc) and the 'older' term, while munje is Ursus americanus.. and there is a clan name that means Black Bear, tunap'in. Any theories on these various terms? Lance Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Richard L. Dieterle wrote: > > > I wonder if anyone can answer this: which came first, the bear or the acorn? Is > > the bear the "acorn-eater", or is the acorn "bear-food"? Some material > > (Winnebago unless otherwise stated): > > > > hujera acorn [Foster] > > huc, huj, hunjra acorn [Gatschet] > > huNc bear [Marino-Radin, contemporary Hocak] > > hunc bear [Radin] > > > Ofo: uthi bear [Dorsey] > > Biloxi: oNt'i, oNdi bear [Dorsey] > > Biloxi: anyaN, udi acorn [Dorsey] > > I don't recall all the details, but the 'acorn' set is basically oral, > while the '(black)bear' set is nasal. The 'bear' set is widely replaced > by forms meaning 'the black one' in Mississippi Valley Siouan, cf. wasabe > in Omaha-Ponca. The 'acorn' set is somewhat irregular. The Omaha-Ponca > correspondent is bu'de. The two sets are not obviously related. > > JEK -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Feb 27 05:33:29 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:33:29 -0700 Subject: bear, acorn In-Reply-To: <3A9B0912.991ADB8@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > Interestingly, IO is bu'je .. which is also slang for the head of the > penis.. which I guess does look like an acorn ...of course there was a > trickster story that had him putting his penis under a log to get at a > chipmunk that was taunting the size of his equipment.. the chipmunk bit > off the member bit by bit, each bit becoming a different plant, and the > head became an acorn! I think it was Dick Carter who told the rest of the CSD group that this glans = acorn was a common trope (not just in Siouan languages). The story of Trickster and Chipmunk is also in the Winnebago and Omaha-Ponca versions of the Trickster cycle. Though Dorsey's Omaha-Ponca version is a bit truncated (no pun intended) in detail and a good deal of it is in Latin. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Feb 27 05:47:29 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:47:29 -0700 Subject: bear, acorn In-Reply-To: <3A9B09F4.E27F9751@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Lance Foster wrote: > wathewe (the black one) This looks right to me. > mahto Should be something like maNtho 'grizzly bear' (Definitely Ursus arctos - I couldn't remember it. Thanks for correcting me; U. horribilis is now considered conspecific with the Eurasian brown bear U. arctos, at least at the somewhat popular level of reference in that field that I frequent.) > munje Or muNj^e 'black bear' (U. americanus) or at least that's the impression I had from the sources the CSD used. This is the correspondent of huNuNc^ in Winnebago, though the initial sounds don't match. Or, in short, this is the term that seems to be of Uto-Aztecan origin in Siouan. > I tend to see mahto as Ursus arctos (Ursus horribilis etc) and the > 'older' term, while munje is Ursus americanus.. and there is a clan name > that means Black Bear, ... > tunap'in The naNp?iN part is presumably 'to wear around the neck'. I'm not sure about the "tu" (thu? i.e., with aspirated t, not theta). JEK From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Tue Feb 27 09:30:24 2001 From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 03:30:24 -0600 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 1:38 AM Subject: Re: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN > Without reiterating the details, it's interesting that you get somewhat > different answers from different individuals - different also from others > elsewhere at other times. PW appears more in line with "traditional > knowledge" among Siouanists, but BL's views show that Siouanists should > beware trying to apply historical data in modern situations. > > There are various techniques for working with ethnotaxonymy. The one > example that comes to mind is that one can investigate classifications by > using possible superordinate terms in referring back to an example in the > immediate context, e.g., in English: > > That tarantula is one ugly !spider/?bug/*animal/creature! > > We had to put a wire cover on the chicken coop to protect them from eagles > and other birds/animals/?creatures like that. > > This is an iguana. A lizzard/*bug/creature like that is fairly common > around here. > > I think you usually get better results with tests like this than by asking > people to classify things themselves, especially if there's a competing > system (like the Linnaean one or the English one) in the way. Thanks for the suggestions on eliciting taxonomies. > It's also interesting to notice the differences in gloss between the > "progressive" and the non-progressive examples' glosses > > > On Sun, 25 Feb 2001, Kathleen Shea wrote: > > > a~'b(a) akha' ma~xpi'i (AN'ba akHa' maNxpi'i.) 'The day is cloudy.' (PW > > says this is like a warning, i.e. to take a coat.) > > a~'b(a) akha' ma~xpi' akha' (AN'ba akHa' maNxpi' akHa'.) 'It's cloudy out > > there, here.' (PW says that it's as though you > > just noticed or just stepped outside and noticed.) > > > a~'ba the kke'dha (AN'ba tHe ke'tha.) 'It's clear; today is clear.' > > a~ba' akha kke'dha akha (ANba' akHa ke'tha akHa.) 'It's clear out there.' > > (just noticed) > Yes, but the examples where the auxiliary akha is present after the verb (ma~xpi 'be cloudy'; kkedha 'be clear') Dhegihanists usually call "progressive," when they seem to me to be sudden, perhaps "momentaneous" in aspect. (At least it's a suddenly perceived state on the part of the speaker.) Kathy From cqcq at compuserve.com Tue Feb 27 14:12:19 2001 From: cqcq at compuserve.com (Carolyn) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:12:19 -0500 Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN Message-ID: Kathy: Regarding the data you report below, could it be that the akHa "continuative' endings occur when the speaker is in the presence of the weather, that is, when he/she steps outside. The references to the weather spoken from indoors---such as the "i.e. take a coat" ones--occur when the speaker is not in the presence of the weather. I like this better than the "momentaneous" explanation. I haven't followed your entire discussion, so you'll have to excuse me if I've repeated something someone else has mentioned. Carolyn > > On Sun, 25 Feb 2001, Kathleen Shea wrote: > > > a~'b(a) akha' ma~xpi'i (AN'ba akHa' maNxpi'i.) 'The day is cloudy.' (PW > > says this is like a warning, i.e. to take a coat.) > > a~'b(a) akha' ma~xpi' akha' (AN'ba akHa' maNxpi' akHa'.) 'It's cloudy out > > there, here.' (PW says that it's as though you > > just noticed or just stepped outside and noticed.) > > > a~'ba the kke'dha (AN'ba tHe ke'tha.) 'It's clear; today is clear.' > > a~ba' akha kke'dha akha (ANba' akHa ke'tha akHa.) 'It's clear out there.' > > (just noticed) > Yes, but the examples where the auxiliary akha is present after the verb (ma~xpi 'be cloudy'; kkedha 'be clear') Dhegihanists usually call "progressive," when they seem to me to be sudden, perhaps "momentaneous" in aspect. (At least it's a suddenly perceived state on the part of the speaker.) Kathy < Dr. Carolyn Quintero, President Inter Lingua, Inc. 1711 East 15th Street Tulsa OK 74104-4608 U.S.A. Telephone (office): +1 918 743 2424 Fax (office): +1 918 743 1347 Cell phone: +1 918 671 4545 Email (personal): cqcq at compuserve.com Email (office): ilinc at ionet.net From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Tue Feb 27 14:57:31 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:57:31 -0600 Subject: Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences Message-ID: > Of course, YUMAN Beans! All my careful wording in vain! :-( Bob From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Tue Feb 27 15:05:24 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:05:24 -0600 Subject: Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences Message-ID: > Yes, and why would one borrow a term for 'black bear'? They tend to be tabooed in many cultures (including many Indo-European ones: in Slavic 'bear' is 'honey eater' or 'the brown one'). Miner once speculated that maybe it was because they walked on their hind legs sometimes -- or at least stood up on them. He found it tabooed in Menomini and maybe some other Algonquian. It's borrowed in Comanche from Osage. It's obviously been replaced with "the black one" in Dhegiha. > I'm not sure how far south Ursus (Euarctos) americanus (or Ursus > horribilis (?), either) ranges. And didn't you (Bob) just mention to me > in some context that Jane Hill thought UA might well originate much > further south than previously thought? Her current hypothesis is that they migrated north, not south. We know that the corn and beans (maybe some squashes) come from Mexico too. Bob From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Tue Feb 27 15:14:22 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:14:22 -0600 Subject: Bean/Bear/Circumlocution Message-ID: > The bear derivation seems a bit farfetched.. maybe some terms for Bear are borrowed (the hunch- ones) but Bear is holoarctic, and the Cult of Bear goes back at least to Neanderthal times in Europe. Sorry, it's only the hute/huNje/huuNc and the derived wa- or wi- plus *huNte > muNte/oNti/muNje, etc. that I'm talking about coming from UA languages. The grizzly terms are strange, but seemingly native. There was presumably a native term for the smaller, black bear everywhere, but, as Lance and I have both said, they tend to be replaced by taboo. Bob From ccpp at cetlink.net Tue Feb 27 15:35:03 2001 From: ccpp at cetlink.net (Catawba Cultural Center) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:35:03 -0500 Subject: Stars, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Going back to a discussion about a week ago of "heavenly" things, Dr. Rudes and I discussed the terms in Catawba. This is a list of words, phrases we compiled: Sky: wa:pit (accenton a:) Cloud: namuN? (accent on uN) Air: ye (also means wind) Heaven: himbare: (accent on i) (see below regarding this word) incidentally, we use "himba" for "yes" Star: wa:pidnu: (accent on i) Comet, meteor, shooting star: ukni: (accent on u) (Comet, metaphoric:wa:pidnu: tusa? [accent on i of first word and u of second word], literally, star-tail) Moon, sun: nuNti: (accent on i) (sometimes when Catawbas want to be very specific about Moon, they say nu~ti wic^awa, Night Sun) Milky Way: yiNwe yaN (accent on iN of first word; literally, dead people's road) Rainbow: nami: (accent on the a) Regarding himbare:, the only sources of /b/ or the cluster /mb/ in Catawba are: (a) assimilation to a neighboring voiced consonant, (b) an onomatopoeic word, or (c) partial or complete denasalization of /m/ next to oral vowels. I think the /mb/ in this word comes from (c), and that the word may have originally entered Catawba from German Himmel. Note that the earliest missionaries in the central Carolinas were the Swiss Palatine (who settled in Tuscarora territory), the Moravians (who settled in Winston-Salem), and the United Brethern (Quakers) (who founded Greensboro). I think the Catawba word may just be a nativization (with the indicative suffix -re:) of the German word, with later partial denasalization of the /m/. It would be interesting to look for other German loan words among other words referring to aspects of Christianity. We have many words that have the /mb/ occuring in words, phrases for "shoot", "sleep", "bad", "brother" examples of which are too numerous to put in this list here, but probably for the reasons (a), (b), and (c) mentioned above by Dr. Rudes. Note that the Catawba word for moon, sun is essentially identical to the Cherokee word for sun (nvte), so one borrowed from the other, but it is not clear which is the source and which borrowed the word. There are of course many more. Catawbas could be very precise and descriptive, which what I enjoy about working with them and their language. Claudia Catawba Cultural Preservation Project From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Feb 27 16:13:40 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:13:40 -0700 Subject: Dhegiha Progressive (Re: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN) In-Reply-To: <005301c0a09f$ea8b0f00$3609ed81@9afl3> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Kathleen Shea wrote: > > > On Sun, 25 Feb 2001, Kathleen Shea wrote: > > > > > a~'b(a) akha' ma~xpi'i (AN'ba akHa' maNxpi'i.) 'The day is cloudy.' > (PW > > > says this is like a warning, i.e. to take a coat.) > > > a~'b(a) akha' ma~xpi' akha' (AN'ba akHa' maNxpi' akHa'.) 'It's cloudy > out > > > there, here.' (PW says that it's as though you > > > just noticed or just stepped outside and noticed.) > > > > > a~'ba the kke'dha (AN'ba tHe ke'tha.) 'It's clear; today is clear.' > > > a~ba' akha kke'dha akha (ANba' akHa ke'tha akHa.) 'It's clear out > there.' > > > (just noticed) > > > Yes, but the examples where the auxiliary akha is present after the verb > (ma~xpi 'be cloudy'; kkedha 'be clear') Dhegihanists usually call > "progressive," when they seem to me to be sudden, perhaps "momentaneous" in > aspect. (At least it's a suddenly perceived state on the part of the > speaker.) The perception may be sudden, but the difference seems to be that in these examples the condition of the weather is background to the person being outside and perhaps noticing the weather (the thread of the discourse), whereas in the others it is the main thread of the discourse. At least that's the way I interpret the contextualization that PW offers. That analysis is also typical of the opposition between imperfective and perfective in discourse-based analyses of their functions. It would be interesting to know how to say '(In the evening) it got cloudy.' (vs. 'In the evening it was cloudy.') or 'It kept clouding up (and then clearing).' or 'Suddenly it was cloudy (or clouded up).' JEK From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Tue Feb 27 19:16:55 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:16:55 -0600 Subject: Dhegiha Progressive (Re: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN) Message-ID: Well, the progressive business plus it's use with the future, etc. are things that Kathy ought to be planning on covering in her dissertation, so please feel free to keep on feeding her questions. I certainly didn't get a complete picture in my Kaw elicitations back in the '70's. Bob > The perception may be sudden, but the difference seems to be that in these > examples the condition of the weather is background to the person being > outside and perhaps noticing the weather (the thread of the discourse), > whereas in the others it is the main thread of the discourse. At least > that's the way I interpret the contextualization that PW offers. That > analysis is also typical of the opposition between imperfective and > perfective in discourse-based analyses of their functions. > > It would be interesting to know how to say '(In the evening) it got > cloudy.' (vs. 'In the evening it was cloudy.') or 'It kept clouding > up (and then clearing).' or 'Suddenly it was cloudy (or clouded up).' > > JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Feb 27 20:10:57 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:10:57 -0700 Subject: Dhegiha Progressive (Re: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN) In-Reply-To: <3A9BFD27.2090700@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, RLR wrote: > Well, the progressive business plus it's use with the future, etc. are > things that Kathy ought to be planning on covering in her dissertation, > so please feel free to keep on feeding her questions. I certainly didn't > get a complete picture in my Kaw elicitations back in the '70's. > > It would be interesting to know how to say '(In the evening) it got > > cloudy.' (vs. 'In the evening it was cloudy.') or 'It kept clouding > > up (and then clearing).' or 'Suddenly it was cloudy (or clouded up).' These questions were cleverly [I hope] designed to elicit non-progressives, or, specifically, 'suddenly' forms. You can work up to those with 'push' or 'shove' examples, too, or 'begin/start to', since the same general set of constructions are used in inceptives and 'suddenly' (aorist?) sentences. Sometime of the sentences are iteratives. Essentially the same constructions are used in sentences involving 'put/place/set/lay/stand' plus some object. And while I'm at it, there are an incredible number of uninvestigated coverbal constructions with motion verbs (pass by, set out), transitive motion verbs (bring, send, accompany, haul, etc.). I was able just using dictionaries and Dorsey's texts to find several motion verb + motion verb patterns that weren't listed in Taylor's summary of MV Siouan motion verbs in IJAL about 25 years ago. My suspicion is that these sorts of questions would be interesting in any Siouan language, not just Dhegiha. The Dakota progressives are a bit simpler in formation than those in Dhegiha, but I'm not aware of any discussions of them outside of - I think - Boas & Deloria. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 28 07:03:47 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:03:47 -0700 Subject: Comparison with PUA 'blue'/'black' In-Reply-To: <3A9AC650.7040604@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: I said I'd provide the Proto-Uto-Aztecan form for 'blue'. This is from a PUA list prepared by the late Wick Miller. It turns out that the comparison is a bit more complex than I remembered, and therefore more dubious. PSi *sap(e) 'black' cf. PUA *sak 'blue' (Miller # 50) PSi *hto(ho) 'grue' cf. PUA *tu, tuhu 'black' (Miller # 45a) Notice that the glosses are reversed. I assume any connection would be a matter of loans one direction or another. Note, however, that the Siouan sets, and I presume the UA sets can be regularly reconstructed, so this would have to be a very old pair of loans. I don't have any mechanism in mind to account for a reversal of the glosses for these two colors, though both are dark colors, and fairly basic ones in the development of color system complexity. All things considered, it seems easier to think of this comparison as reflected some sort of coincidence. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 28 07:19:57 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:19:57 -0700 Subject: Distant kins & -shit- :-) In-Reply-To: <20010222211828.21742.qmail@web123.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Constantine Xmelnitski wrote: > I have three questions on Siouan kinship terms. I've been meaning to supply the reference for a comprehensive reference on Siouan kinship systems: Lesser, Alexander. 1958. Siouan Kinship. Ph.D. DIssertation, Columbia Unversity. I don't seem to have a DAI number. This was based on fieldwork in the late 1920s plus publications availble at the time of writing, and published long after it was written. There is also a comprehensive analysis of Siouan kinship terms by G.H. Matthews. I believe it appeared in American Anthropologist, but I've misplaced the reference. From soup at vm.inext.cz Wed Feb 28 09:52:49 2001 From: soup at vm.inext.cz (SOUP) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 10:52:49 +0100 Subject: Bear (Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences) Message-ID: On 27 Feb 2001, Robert Rankin wrote: > They tend to be tabooed in many cultures (including many Indo-European > ones: in Slavic 'bear' is 'honey eater' or 'the brown one'). Yes, in Czech - the westernmost Slavic language - bear is called medve^d, where "med" = "honey" and "ve^d" = "the one who knows of". It is said that bear was considered so sacred or scary that the old Slavs didn't dare to speak up its real name and thus used a byname for it (which makes me wonder what the original name could have been). Jan From ioway at earthlink.net Wed Feb 28 13:16:25 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 06:16:25 -0700 Subject: Bear (Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences) Message-ID: Yes, to use a descriptive name rather than THE name is circumlocution (relates to how a bear walks around a bush before crapping as my dad says). Also even the word "bear" I think comes from the Germanic root that means "the brown [one]". In Ioway examples of this circulocution is not only "wathewe", but also "no hair on the seat" "big foot" "big tracks" all of which in one story were used to infuriate the bear. One of the best examples I have seen describing this "talking around" the real name of the Bear (and other powerful and spiritually dangerous animals) was in the book on the Koyukon, "Make Prayers to the Raven : A Koyukon View of the Northern Forest" by Richard K. Nelson. It relates to the relationship between the hunter and the hunted, and the fact the Bear is so much like the human being, frighteningly so when it is skinned. I am Bear Clan so all this is fascinating to me. Lance SOUP wrote: > On 27 Feb 2001, Robert Rankin wrote: > > > They tend to be tabooed in many cultures (including many Indo-European > > ones: in Slavic 'bear' is 'honey eater' or 'the brown one'). > > Yes, in Czech - the westernmost Slavic language - bear is called medve^d, > where "med" = "honey" and "ve^d" = "the one who knows of". It is said that > bear was considered so sacred or scary that the old Slavs didn't dare to > speak up its real name and thus used a byname for it (which makes me wonder > what the original name could have been). > > Jan -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From ioway at earthlink.net Wed Feb 28 14:32:07 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:32:07 -0700 Subject: Oral ~ Nasal Correspondences Message-ID: You guys may already know about it, but for those who may not-- I found a wonderful resource on the web that I would like to share with the group, The Short Encyclopedia of Hotc?k (Winnebago) Myth, Legend, and Folklore, by Richard L. Dieterle, editor and compiler (http://members.nbci.com/diete003/) All kinds of really neat stuff here, even texts from Dorsey, such as: http://members.nbci.com/diete003/ho.HotcTxtFatalHouse.html Good stuff Maynard! -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From ioway at earthlink.net Wed Feb 28 14:35:01 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:35:01 -0700 Subject: Online Hocak Encyclopedia and Texts Message-ID: > You guys may already know about it, but for those who may not-- > > I found a wonderful resource on the web that I would like to share with the group, > The Short Encyclopedia of Hotc?k (Winnebago) Myth, Legend, and Folklore, by > Richard L. Dieterle, editor and compiler (http://members.nbci.com/diete003/) > > All kinds of really neat stuff here, even texts from Dorsey, such as: > > http://members.nbci.com/diete003/ho.HotcTxtFatalHouse.html > > Good stuff Maynard! > > -- > Lance Michael Foster > Email: ioway at earthlink.net > http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway > ------------------------- > Native Nations Press, > 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 > Phone: 505-438-2945 > info at nativenations.com > ------------------------- > NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) > Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) -- Lance Michael Foster Email: ioway at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway ------------------------- Native Nations Press, 1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501 Phone: 505-438-2945 info at nativenations.com ------------------------- NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com) Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org) From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Feb 28 15:33:28 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:33:28 GMT Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN In-Reply-To: Message-ID: re Arapaho, I have also presumed, on no evidence at all, that it is a rendering into English of Mah^piya Tho. Am I right or is it from some other Siouan language. Bruce > Actually, I should have written a nasal vowel for the first vowel in the > word for Arapaho since that's what I heard: maNxpi' atHaN. I'll try to > be on the lookout for other examples. JEK Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 28 17:13:03 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:13:03 -0600 Subject: More bears. Message-ID: I went to my sources and retrieved the 'bear' terms we were talking about. The Uto-Aztecan forms are more complicated than I remembered (like John's "black and blue" words). Here are the Siouan and then the UA terms. Crow buusshi' Dakotan hu'te Chiwere muN'je Winneb. huuN'c Biloxi oNti Tutelo mu:Nti Ofo uNthi with its aspirate has become mixed with 'grizzley' (maNtho). Comments: The sound correspondences are not as regular as we would like them to be. A possible prototype here might be *wi-hu:N'te. The prefix is the Siouan animate absolutive and it accounts for those languages in which 'bear' begins with a labial sonorant. There is no uniformity in retention of reflexes of this prefix however. Even Chiwere is split from Winnebago on this feature. Dakotan ought to retain nasalization but does not. In verbs, a w-initial prefix before root-initial h- would collapse to a [p], but not here. So the "bear" root would have been something like *hu:te or *hu:Nte. Now consider these Uto-Aztecan forms: Cora huu'ce?e 'bear' Huichol hu'uce 'bear' Mayo hooso 'bear' (may be contaminated from Spanish oso -- jek) Hopi ho:nawy 'bear' (related to 'badger' term) Luiseno hu'n-wu-t 'bear' (related to 'badger') Tubatul. ?u:nal 'black bear' Cahuilla hu'nal 'badger' Cupeno hu'nal 'badger' S. Paiute yna-N 'badger' Shoshone hunan 'badger' These are mostly from p. 56 of Millers UA Cognate Sets. Some information is from Jane Hill personally. She says the root is *hun-. I really am not qualified to comment on the morphemic breakdown or sound changes in UA. This could just be a "Wanderwort" that is borrowed in all the languages where it is found. Note that the languages nearer to modern Siouan locations tend to have the 'badger' meaning while the 'bear' meaning is found farther afield. Messy. Thanks to Lance for the wa0ewe term from Chiwere; it wasn't in the comparative database. Stoney has wa0aben 'black bear' also, probably a taboo replacement. Bob From egooding at iupui.edu Wed Feb 28 18:28:21 2001 From: egooding at iupui.edu (Erik D. Gooding) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:28:21 -0500 Subject: More bears. In-Reply-To: <3A9D319F.5020209@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: Other Dakotan Bear terms: Santee-Sisseton wah^?aNksica 'black bear' s^ake'haNska 'long claws'/grizzly s^ake'hute 'root nose' Yankton-Yanktonai wah^aNks^ica 'black bear' s^akehute 'grizzly' Assiniboine wah^?aNsicaskana 'White Bear'/grizzly wacHuwiska 'white sided/grizzly owes^icapi 'bad kind' wamaNkamani 'earth walker' makHuska 'white chest' Stoney wasabe 'black animal' oz^iNz^a 'blows through the nose' these were from Parks and DeMallie (1994 AAA talk handout) I got oz^iNz^a 'blows through the nose' for Stoney 'bear' at both Alexis and Morley At 11:13 AM 02/28/2001 -0600, RLR wrote: > >I went to my sources and retrieved the 'bear' terms we were talking >about. The Uto-Aztecan forms are more complicated than I remembered >(like John's "black and blue" words). Here are the Siouan and then the >UA terms. > >Crow >buusshi' >Dakotan > hu'te >Chiwere >muN'je >Winneb. > huuN'c >Biloxi oNti >Tutelo >mu:Nti > >Ofo uNthi with its aspirate has become mixed with 'grizzley' (maNtho). > >Comments: The sound correspondences are not as regular as we would like >them to be. A possible prototype here might be *wi-hu:N'te. The prefix >is the Siouan animate absolutive and it accounts for those languages in >which 'bear' begins with a labial sonorant. There is no uniformity in >retention of reflexes of this prefix however. Even Chiwere is split from >Winnebago on this feature. Dakotan ought to retain nasalization but does >not. In verbs, a w-initial prefix before root-initial h- would collapse >to a [p], but not here. > >So the "bear" root would have been something like *hu:te or *hu:Nte. >Now consider these Uto-Aztecan forms: > >Cora > huu'ce?e 'bear' >Huichol > hu'uce 'bear' >Mayo > hooso 'bear' (may be contaminated from Spanish oso -- jek) >Hopi > ho:nawy 'bear' (related to 'badger' term) >Luiseno > hu'n-wu-t 'bear' (related to 'badger') >Tubatul. ?u:nal 'black bear' >Cahuilla hu'nal 'badger' >Cupeno > hu'nal 'badger' >S. Paiute yna-N 'badger' >Shoshone hunan 'badger' > >These are mostly from p. 56 of Millers UA Cognate Sets. Some information >is from Jane Hill personally. She says the root is *hun-. I really am >not qualified to comment on the morphemic breakdown or sound changes in >UA. This could just be a "Wanderwort" that is borrowed in all the >languages where it is found. Note that the languages nearer to modern >Siouan locations tend to have the 'badger' meaning while the 'bear' >meaning is found farther afield. Messy. > >Thanks to Lance for the wa0ewe term from Chiwere; it wasn't in the >comparative database. Stoney has wa0aben 'black bear' also, probably a >taboo replacement. > >Bob From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 28 18:41:19 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:41:19 -0600 Subject: More bears. Message-ID: Eric has come up with a lot more evidence for the taboo status of 'bear' among Siouan speakers. Several nice euphemisms here. And it looks to me as though the s^ake'hute term with the translation 'root nose' probably involved folk etymology on the part of speakers again. It is true that hu'te is 'stump, base of a tree, etc.' but it is also 'blackbear' as we have seen in many related languages. Folk reanalysis of hute as 'stump' might account for the missing nasalization in Dakotan though. We would expect Dakotan huN'te 'bear'. The term is missing from Buechel under H but can be found under S^ on page 460 without an explicit translation. Bob Erik D. Gooding wrote: > Other Dakotan Bear terms: > Santee-Sisseton > wah^?aNksica 'black bear' > s^ake'haNska 'long claws'/grizzly > s^ake'hute 'root nose' > > Yankton-Yanktonai > wah^aNks^ica 'black bear' > s^akehute 'grizzly' > > Assiniboine > wah^?aNsicaskana 'White Bear'/grizzly > wacHuwiska 'white sided/grizzly > owes^icapi 'bad kind' > wamaNkamani 'earth walker' > makHuska 'white chest' > > Stoney > wasabe 'black animal' > oz^iNz^a 'blows through the nose' > > these were from Parks and DeMallie (1994 AAA talk handout) > > I got oz^iNz^a 'blows through the nose' for Stoney 'bear' at both Alexis > and Morley > From egooding at iupui.edu Wed Feb 28 20:05:12 2001 From: egooding at iupui.edu (Erik D. Gooding) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:05:12 -0500 Subject: More bears. In-Reply-To: <3A9D464F.3070406@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: Let me add the terms for Bear in Lakota ritual langauge, hunuNp, hunuNpa, and hunuNpakaN, all variants of "two legs". What about lions and tigers? (that's me playing the straight man for someone else) At 12:41 PM 02/28/2001 -0600, RLR wrote: >Eric has come up with a lot more evidence for the taboo status of 'bear' >among Siouan speakers. Several nice euphemisms here. And it looks to me >as though the s^ake'hute term with the translation 'root nose' probably >involved folk etymology on the part of speakers again. It is true that >hu'te is 'stump, base of a tree, etc.' but it is also 'blackbear' as we >have seen in many related languages. Folk reanalysis of hute as 'stump' >might account for the missing nasalization in Dakotan though. We would >expect Dakotan huN'te 'bear'. The term is missing from Buechel under H >but can be found under S^ on page 460 without an explicit translation. > >Bob > >Erik D. Gooding wrote: > >> Other Dakotan Bear terms: >> Santee-Sisseton >> wah^?aNksica 'black bear' >> s^ake'haNska 'long claws'/grizzly >> s^ake'hute 'root nose' >> >> Yankton-Yanktonai >> wah^aNks^ica 'black bear' >> s^akehute 'grizzly' >> >> Assiniboine >> wah^?aNsicaskana 'White Bear'/grizzly >> wacHuwiska 'white sided/grizzly >> owes^icapi 'bad kind' >> wamaNkamani 'earth walker' >> makHuska 'white chest' >> >> Stoney >> wasabe 'black animal' >> oz^iNz^a 'blows through the nose' >> >> these were from Parks and DeMallie (1994 AAA talk handout) >> >> I got oz^iNz^a 'blows through the nose' for Stoney 'bear' at both Alexis >> and Morley >> From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 28 21:11:18 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:11:18 -0600 Subject: More bears. Message-ID: > What about lions and tigers? (that's me playing the straight man for > someone else) Hmm, good question. All I know is 'elephant' in Kaw, which is wakkaNda xoje-ttaNga 'great gray god'. B. From ccpp at cetlink.net Wed Feb 28 21:22:01 2001 From: ccpp at cetlink.net (Catawba Cultural Center) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:22:01 -0500 Subject: More bears. In-Reply-To: <3A9D319F.5020209@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: In Catawba, "bear" is "nime~?" (where ? represents a glottal stop). This is the black bear; I don't think there were any other kind in this part of the country (SE). There isn't a "taboo" with this term, but there are examples of descriptive terms for certain animals. Some have older forms but others just descriptive ones where the older form may have been forgotten. The word for alligator means "one (who is) terrible", "dape~hi:yi~", rabbit "one (who) sits", "dabawa~?", chipmunk "one (whose) back (is) scratched/scraped/spotted" de:pendata:ks'uksu Can we not trace the English word 'bear', or German "Baer"(a umlaut) back to the Indo-European "bheros", 'brown animal' also the same root for 'beaver'? How does E "beaver" and G "Biber" relate to the Latin word "fiber"? I'm curious about the etymology; isn't there a taboo to be found here too? -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of RLR Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 12:13 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: More bears. I went to my sources and retrieved the 'bear' terms we were talking about. The Uto-Aztecan forms are more complicated than I remembered (like John's "black and blue" words). Here are the Siouan and then the UA terms. Crow buusshi' Dakotan hu'te Chiwere muN'je Winneb. huuN'c Biloxi oNti Tutelo mu:Nti Ofo uNthi with its aspirate has become mixed with 'grizzley' (maNtho). Comments: The sound correspondences are not as regular as we would like them to be. A possible prototype here might be *wi-hu:N'te. The prefix is the Siouan animate absolutive and it accounts for those languages in which 'bear' begins with a labial sonorant. There is no uniformity in retention of reflexes of this prefix however. Even Chiwere is split from Winnebago on this feature. Dakotan ought to retain nasalization but does not. In verbs, a w-initial prefix before root-initial h- would collapse to a [p], but not here. So the "bear" root would have been something like *hu:te or *hu:Nte. Now consider these Uto-Aztecan forms: Cora huu'ce?e 'bear' Huichol hu'uce 'bear' Mayo hooso 'bear' (may be contaminated from Spanish oso -- jek) Hopi ho:nawy 'bear' (related to 'badger' term) Luiseno hu'n-wu-t 'bear' (related to 'badger') Tubatul. ?u:nal 'black bear' Cahuilla hu'nal 'badger' Cupeno hu'nal 'badger' S. Paiute yna-N 'badger' Shoshone hunan 'badger' These are mostly from p. 56 of Millers UA Cognate Sets. Some information is from Jane Hill personally. She says the root is *hun-. I really am not qualified to comment on the morphemic breakdown or sound changes in UA. This could just be a "Wanderwort" that is borrowed in all the languages where it is found. Note that the languages nearer to modern Siouan locations tend to have the 'badger' meaning while the 'bear' meaning is found farther afield. Messy. Thanks to Lance for the wa0ewe term from Chiwere; it wasn't in the comparative database. Stoney has wa0aben 'black bear' also, probably a taboo replacement. Bob From shanwest at uvic.ca Wed Feb 28 21:45:31 2001 From: shanwest at uvic.ca (Shannon West) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:45:31 -0800 Subject: More bears. In-Reply-To: <4.1.20010228131724.00a83ed0@imap1.iupui.edu> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of Erik D. Gooding > Sent: February 28, 2001 10:28 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu; siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: More bears. > > > Other Dakotan Bear terms: > Assiniboine > wah^?aNsicaskana 'White Bear'/grizzly > wacHuwiska 'white sided/grizzly > owes^icapi 'bad kind' > wamaNkamani 'earth walker' > makHuska 'white chest' I've got waxaNksija in Assiniboine. Shannon From egooding at iupui.edu Wed Feb 28 22:49:02 2001 From: egooding at iupui.edu (Erik D. Gooding) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:49:02 -0500 Subject: More bears. In-Reply-To: <3A9D6976.7090901@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: I was hoping for someone to say "Oh, my!" from the "lions and tigers, and bears, oh, my!" of my youth. At 03:11 PM 02/28/2001 -0600, RLR wrote: >> What about lions and tigers? (that's me playing the straight man for >> someone else) > >Hmm, good question. All I know is 'elephant' in Kaw, which is wakkaNda >xoje-ttaNga 'great gray god'. > >B. From rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu Wed Feb 28 22:55:44 2001 From: rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu (RLR) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:55:44 -0600 Subject: More bears. Message-ID: > I was hoping for someone to say "Oh, my!" from the "lions and tigers, and bears, oh, my!" of my youth. We must have had different youths. :-) I was thinking all the while of "Animal Crackers in my Soup!" and the little tune that goes with it. B. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 28 23:34:10 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:34:10 -0700 Subject: Stem Truncation in Dhegiha (was Re: More bears) In-Reply-To: <4.1.20010228150236.00a83b40@imap1.iupui.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Erik D. Gooding wrote: > What about lions and tigers? (that's me playing the straight man for > someone else) Well, Omaha-Ponca iNgdhaNsiNsnede 'mountain lion' is interesting in providing two examples in one word of stem truncation, in which a longer stem is truncated in a compound. I've already mentioned this in passing, including truncation in kin terms, where it appears to be diminutive in origin. This word is iNgdhaN(ge) 'cat' + siN(de) 'tail' + snede 'long'. Comparable examples are s^aNttaNga 'wolf' with s^aN(ge) 'dog' ('horse in historical usage) and waz^iNttu 'bluebird' with waz^iN(ga) '(small) bird'. One way to analyze this is as a Dhegiha implementation of the C-final stem pattern that some stems (C-final ones) show in Dakotan, e.g., s^aN < *s^aNk < s^aNge, rather than direct truncation. Dhegiha languages tend to avoid C-final forms in independent words and have a greatly reduced cluster inventory, so neither *siNt or s^aNk nor *siNtsnede or *s^aNkttaNga would be expected. Note that Omaha, however, does have a tendency to reduce word final CV sequences to Ch[V-voiceless] which comes across as Ch#. This is especially frequent with the articles akha and khe. But it also occurs with the article ama and the homonophonous quotative. Medially you also get niks^iNga for nikkas^iNga 'person', ttapska for ttappuska 'student; school', and so on. I'm not positive what the conditioning is, but it looks like something along the lines of C__# (in enclitics) and C__C[voiceless] (medially). Incidentally, as long as we're looking at obscure borrowings, that 'student, school' word is also attested in Pawnee. The origin is unknown. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 28 23:35:57 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:35:57 -0700 Subject: More bears. In-Reply-To: <3A9D6976.7090901@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, RLR wrote: > > What about lions and tigers? (that's me playing the straight man for > > someone else) > > Hmm, good question. All I know is 'elephant' in Kaw, which is wakkaNda > xoje-ttaNga 'great gray god'. Omaha has nitta ttaNga 'big beast' for 'lion'. JEK