U.S. President and cloud/sky: more. (fwd)

[Koontz John E]

Oops.  This ought to have gone to the list.  Nailed by the return to what
problem in spite of my own good advice.  JEK

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 02:07:25 -0700 (MST)
From: Koontz John E <koontz at spot.colorado.edu>
To: Lance Foster <ioway at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: U.S. President and cloud/sky: more.

On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Lance Foster wrote:
> The Iowa chiefs Mahaska, White Cloud, was spelled historically different
> ways. Together these ways (ex: Monhaska, Monhashka, Mahaska, Mahaskan, JGT
> Maxu(we)=xga) can reveal some things.

I suspect the spellings of 'White Cloud' are intended to render MaNgheska,
in which maNghe is the "form 1" 'sky' term not otherwise attested in
Ioway-Otoe and Winnebago.  I wonder if the name is borrowed froma language
that does have this term or if this is a relict.  I can't think of any way
to be sure!  I suppose the name might be MaNghuska, too.

> As Marsh/Whitman noted, "s" (?Prepalatal sibilant) was changing to
v> (alveolar) "sh".. and JGT noted that even more recently in some family
> dialects, the s/sh was being realized as "x". Thus JGT has "xga" as
> "white", but earlier forms were ska/shka, very much like Om/Dak (again
> correct me if I am off base).

I think hka is a variant of (older) ska ~ (newer) <th>ka.

> IO does have another term, kera/kela (I am still deciding whether to go
> with l or r in my presentation to the learner and I think JGT goes back and
> forth too), which is glossed "the clear blue sky (at dawn)", a Bear Clan
> name. "To" is blue, so kela has more to do with clarity.. although for
> water (and for thinking), bredhe is "clear."

Notice that here we have IO ? khera, cf. Dieterle's report of Wi kera, and
LaFlesche has kkedha 'sky, the unclouded or clear sky.  (What is the
source for the IO form, by the way?)  Teton has kheya 'to make a roof of',
analyzed as a causative of 'turtle' by Buechel.  I'm not sure if that's a
clue or a red herring.  I think earth is a turtle shell, but not the sky.

Also, while one might wonder about *hkera 'sky', there's this from David
Costa:

====
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:58:59 -0800
From: David Costa <pankihtamwa at earthlink.net>
To: Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>,
    Michael Mccafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: Sky and clouds (fwd)

A Miami-Illinois word for 'sky'? Certainly, /kii$ikwi/.
=====

The $ is s^.

> IO "maNshi" is high, as in ahemaN'shi = ahe "hill" + maN'shi "high" =
> mountain. But maN'shi also is related to maNgri(da), "above (as in the
> sky).

The first has a cognate in Omaa-Ponca.  I think the second is perhaps not
related, though it has the same first syllable.

Also, compare Dakotan {waNkatuya or WaNkal literally 'up there, high up'},
offered by Bruce Ingham with Winnebago {maxi wange'ja, heaven, sky ("sky
above") [Gatschet]}, offered by Richard Dieterle, in which waNka- matches
waNge-, implying *waNk(e)  'high'.  I'm not sure if the first part of IO
maNgrida is related or not.

JEK