From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu Mar  1 05:23:04 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:23:04 -0700
Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN
In-Reply-To: <2BD73206AB1@soas.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.28.FEB.2001.222304.0700.>

On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Bruce Ingham wrote:

> re Arapaho, I have also presumed, on no evidence at all, that it is a
>  rendering into English of Mah^piya Tho.  Am I right or is it from
> some other Siouan language.

Crow has Alappaho', but unless this has some obvious interpretation, it
could be a loan, e.g., from English.  Ala- is one of the instrumentals.

JEK


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Thu Mar  1 11:28:32 2001
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:28:32 GMT
Subject: More bears.
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20010228174821.00a86a30@imap1.iupui.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.1.MAR.2001.112832.GMT.>

in Lakota 'whale' is wamnitu presumably 'thing being in water' and
 I think I've seen in for 'hippo' too,  which would make sense.
Incidentally does anyone have an explanation for uNh^ceg^ila or
uNkceg^ila for 'mastodon' or 'prehistoric animal', known through the
skeletons found on the plains.  Unkce looks like the word 'e.cre.
ent' which was quarantined in a recent dialogue g^i 'brown' and la
'diminutive'.  Alltogether highly unpleasant to behold I suppose.  In
one of Buechels texts there is a description of the discovery of one
of these.

Bruce

Date sent:      	Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:49:02 -0500
Send reply to:  	siouan at lists.colorado.edu
From:           	"Erik D. Gooding" <egooding at iupui.edu>
To:             	siouan at lists.colorado.edu, siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject:        	Re: More bears.

I was hoping for someone to say "Oh, my!" from the "lions and tigers, and
bears, oh, my!" of my youth.


At 03:11 PM 02/28/2001 -0600, RLR wrote:
>> What about lions and tigers? (that's me playing the straight man for
>> someone else)
>
>Hmm, good question. All I know is 'elephant' in Kaw, which is wakkaNda
>xoje-ttaNga 'great gray god'.
>
>B.

Dr. Bruce Ingham
Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies
SOAS


From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu  Thu Mar  1 13:18:06 2001
From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark Awakuni-Swetland)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:18:06 -0600
Subject: More bears.
Message-ID: <THU.1.MAR.2001.071806.0600.>

01 March 2001

The Stabler lexicon glosses

lion             wanita waxa        greater animal  (1977:113)

elephant    tibaxiatha            push over house, referring to its strength
(1977:67),
                                                as taken from Fletcher and
La Flesche (1911:103)

giraffe        pasiata wathate    (1977:85)


A couple years ago elders at the UmoNhoN Nation Public Schools had provided
a term for hippo, but I've momentarily misplaced it.

Sorry, no tigers in Omaha country... although niashiNga hiNshkube (hairy
man/bigfoot) has been sited recently.

uthixide

-----Original Message-----
From: Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Date: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: More bears.


>On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, RLR wrote:
>
>> > What about lions and tigers? (that's me playing the straight man for
>> > someone else)
>>
>> Hmm, good question. All I know is 'elephant' in Kaw, which is wakkaNda
>> xoje-ttaNga 'great gray god'.
>
>Omaha has nitta ttaNga 'big beast' for 'lion'.
>
>JEK


From ioway at earthlink.net  Thu Mar  1 15:05:07 2001
From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 08:05:07 -0700
Subject: More bears.
Message-ID: <THU.1.MAR.2001.080507.0700.>

>
>
> Sorry, no tigers in Omaha country... although niashiNga hiNshkube (hairy
> man/bigfoot) has been sited recently.

One thing I am really interested in is some of the cryptozoology of the tribes.

I differentiate legendary animals and spirits from cryptozoology, through the
following criteria:

1. Was the animal thought of as a real PHYSICAL animal? (can be killed, does it
bleed, is similar to other animals)
2. Did people see it recently (not in legendary times) and did it behave like
an animal? (eating, running, having young)

For example, the Ioway had the shunka warak'in (carries off dogs), which was
described as something between a hyena and a wolf. It came into camp at night
and would kill dogs and carry them off to eat. The people finally caught and
killed it, and when it died it screamed like a human being. They used its skin
as an amulet. It was considered to be a real animal. This was also seen in
Idaho, shot and stuffed, and supposedly it still exists in a tiny local museum
there.

I heard the Ponca saw the Pasnute (Hairy-Nose) which conformed to the
description of a mastodon or mammoth.

I don't know if tribes see Bigfoot more as a spirit or as some kind of animal..
I think it is the former.

We had something in our legends that shades between legend and physical
reality.. a story of long-bodied bears.

My Cheyenne Uncle told me that there are still animals "from a long time ago,
different kinds from today" that live in certain hills in Montana.

Does anyone have these kinds of "animals" (not "spirits" that seem to act with
human intelligence, diffuse form, or disappear in front of you)? What kind of
words do they use, descriptive of appearance (hairy nose) or behavior (carries
off dogs)?

--
Lance Michael Foster
Email: ioway at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway
-------------------------
Native Nations Press,
1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501
Phone: 505-438-2945
info at nativenations.com
-------------------------
NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com)
Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org)


From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu  Fri Mar  2 14:03:15 2001
From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:03:15 -0600
Subject: Cryptos
Message-ID: <FRI.2.MAR.2001.080315.0600.>

First regarding bears: "We had something in our legends that shades between
legend and physical reality.. a story of long-bodied bears." The Winnebago have
"long-legged bears," which seem to be the ursine counterparts of humanoid
giants.  One gets the feeling that they are thought to be extinct.

This is the criterion that you give for culling out legendary animals:

"1. Was the animal thought of as a real PHYSICAL animal? (can be killed, does it
bleed, is similar to other animals)
2. Did people see it recently (not in legendary times) and did it behave like
an animal? (eating, running, having young)"

The problem is that waterspirits (waktcexi) seem to satisfy these criteria.
Waterspirits inhabited lakes and streams rather like the Loch Ness monster,
which one Winnebago told me was just a waterspirit.  These spirits gave people
the right to cut certain tissues from their body to use as medicine.  There are
artifacts that purport to be these medicinal items.  Their bones are
particularly valuable in this respect.

People have claimed to see them on rare occasions.  There are stories that they
have swallowed cervids whole.  There is another story in which a waterspirit
created a whirlpool that sucked down a Dakota warparty that was pursuing the
Winnebago across a lake, etc.

Interestingly, the same is not true of Thunderbirds, perhaps because they are
thought to present themselves in the guise of humans.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Mar  2 16:09:40 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:09:40 -0700
Subject: Cryptos
In-Reply-To: <iss.4f42.3a9fa823.610a4.1@garnet.tc.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.MAR.2001.090940.0700.>

On Fri, 2 Mar 2001, Richard L. Dieterle wrote:
...
> This is the criterion that you (Lance) give for culling out legendary
> animals:
>
> "1. Was the animal thought of as a real PHYSICAL animal? (can be killed, does it
> bleed, is similar to other animals)
> 2. Did people see it recently (not in legendary times) and did it behave like
> an animal? (eating, running, having young)"
>
> The problem is that waterspirits (waktcexi) seem to satisfy these criteria.
...

Watermonsters have young in Omaha-Ponca mythology, because Haxige killed
the children of the watermonsters to avenge the death of his brother.

But, anyway - *ahem* - to turn the discussion back to *linguistic* matters
the way to tell would seem to be to see if a given creature is covered by
a given superordinate term, e.g., using Omaha-Ponca examples, wanitta,
waz^iNga, wagdhis^ka, maybe we's?a, maybe nikkas^iNga.  If the creature is
also - well, unattested - then it can be crypto-wanitta or whatever as a
matter of attestation.  It would be rather interesting from the standpoint
of anthropological linguistics if a creature could belong to several
different superordinate categories, though perhaps in thinking that I am
out of date.

It is certainly a handicap in this and related conversations in this list
that nobody, as far as I know, has done any modern anthropological
linguistic investigations of any Siouan language, and scarcely even of any
other Plains or Midwestern (let alone Southeastern) language.  If I'm
wrong on that it would be interesting to hear otherwise.  This includes
color terminology, ethnotaxonomy, kinsip systems, the works.

JEK


From Rgraczyk at aol.com  Fri Mar  2 16:31:38 2001
From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:31:38 EST
Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN
Message-ID: <FRI.2.MAR.2001.113138.EST.>

In a message dated 2/28/01 10:24:13 PM Mountain Standard Time,
John.Koontz at colorado.edu writes:


> > re Arapaho, I have also presumed, on no evidence at all, that it is a
> >  rendering into English of Mah^piya Tho.  Am I right or is it from
> > some other Siouan language.
>
> Crow has Alappaho', but unless this has some obvious interpretation, it
> could be a loan, e.g., from English.  Ala- is one of the instrumentals.
>
> JEK
>
>

I think you can make a case that Arapaho is a Crow or Hidatsa word.  The
derivation that is usually given is alappe' 'tattoos' + aho' 'many, much'.

Randy
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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Mar  2 16:38:15 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:38:15 -0700
Subject: Anthropological Linguistics
Message-ID: <FRI.2.MAR.2001.093815.0700.>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:27:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Lance Foster <hengruh at yahoo.com>
To: John.Koontz at colorado.edu
Subject: Re: Cryptos

Hi John

I can't reply to the list from this address
(hengruh at yahoo.com) so maybe you can pass this on for
me.

I have done two such studies, imperfect though they
may be.

One is a section in my thesis on the Ioway sacred
bundles where I compare the taxonomy of the bundle
system given by ethnographers, compared to what the
linguistic taxonomy seems to be.

The second is the ethnozoology of the Ioway-Otoe and
how it relates to Oneota archaeology and Chiwere
linguistic taxonomy. I talk about circumlocution in
there. This one is quite lengthy, maybe 30 pages long.

If you can, please pass this onto the list. Thanks

Lance


From BGalloway at sifc.edu  Sun Mar  4 00:18:57 2001
From: BGalloway at sifc.edu (Galloway, Brent)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 18:18:57 -0600
Subject: More bears.
Message-ID: <SAT.3.MAR.2001.181857.0600.>

Surely, the correspondence in the last two weeks on the Siouan list has set
some kind of a record.  I was gone on a trip for two weeks and came back to
an astonishing 249 e-mails, of which 181 were from the Siouan list between
Feb. 13 and Feb. 27th.  The pace continued on the 28th.  I do want to read
all these but if the pace keeps up my computer space may be exceeded first!
I printed them out so I could delete them and wound up with a book-sized set
of pages.  I know they are archived and I don't need to print them, I just
did it this time to delete them so I could find my other e-mail.  The Siouan
mail I have read of the last 2 weeks are quite interesting.  I hope to get
into the fray a bit soon as I am doing some fieldwork with an Assiniboine
speaker in our field methods class starting next week.
.
	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Koontz John E [SMTP:John.Koontz at colorado.edu]
	Sent:	Wednesday, February 28, 2001 5:36 PM
	To:	siouan at lists.colorado.edu
	Subject:	Re: More bears.

	On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, RLR wrote:

	> > What about lions and tigers? (that's me playing the straight man
for
	> > someone else)
	>
	> Hmm, good question. All I know is 'elephant' in Kaw, which is
wakkaNda
	> xoje-ttaNga 'great gray god'.

	Omaha has nitta ttaNga 'big beast' for 'lion'.

	JEK


From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu  Fri Mar  9 06:34:41 2001
From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 00:34:41 -0600
Subject: Dhegiha Progressive (Re: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN)
Message-ID: <FRI.9.MAR.2001.003441.0600.>

Yes, it definitely needs more investigation.  Thank-you, Carolyn, John, and
Bob, for your comments.

Kathy

----- Original Message -----
From: "RLR" <rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: Dhegiha Progressive (Re: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN)


> Well, the progressive business plus it's use with the future, etc. are
> things that Kathy ought to be planning on covering in her dissertation,
> so please feel free to keep on feeding her questions. I certainly didn't
> get a complete picture in my Kaw elicitations back in the '70's.
>
> Bob
>
> > The perception may be sudden, but the difference seems to be that in
these
> > examples the condition of the weather is background to the person being
> > outside and perhaps noticing the weather (the thread of the discourse),
> > whereas in the others it is the main thread of the discourse.  At least
> > that's the way I interpret the contextualization that PW offers.  That
> > analysis is also typical of the opposition between imperfective and
> > perfective in discourse-based analyses of their functions.
> >
> > It would be interesting to know how to say '(In the evening) it got
> > cloudy.' (vs. 'In the evening it was cloudy.') or 'It kept clouding
> > up (and then clearing).' or 'Suddenly it was cloudy (or clouded up).'
> >
> > JEK


From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu  Fri Mar  9 08:18:24 2001
From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 02:18:24 -0600
Subject: More bears.
Message-ID: <FRI.9.MAR.2001.021824.0600.>

It seems that Omaha and Ponca diverge quite often when it comes to recent
vocabulary.  For instance, I noticed the word for "cup" in Ponca, uxpe'
z^i~ga (uxpe' zhiNga), lit. "little dish," is different from the Omaha one,
which I can't remember.  the words for "car," "teacher," "student," and
"school" are all different, too.  Anyway, as far as wild, extinct,
mythological, or foreign animals go, I've elicited some terms (shown here in
parentheses in the accepted practical orthography) from two Ponca elders,
both in their late 80's:

"elephant"        wakka~'da ppasne'de (wakaN'da pasne'de)  --PW says this
was also used for mastadons and mammoths,                             and
means literally "god with a long nose."

                        ttibaxi'adha (tibaxi'atha)  --BL recalls this term
for "elephant," which is like the Omaha.

"lion"                ppa'tta hi~s^kube (pa'ta hiNshkube)  --PW, lit., "in
front he's hairy"; "full beard"

"mountain lion, puma, cougar"        i~gdha~' / i~gdha~'ga (iNgtha' /
iNgthaN'ga)  --PW sometimes adds ma~'tta~na~ha~
(maN'taNnaNhaN) "wild" after this.  He calls a housecat ppu'si (pu'si) but
says that his
grandparents' generation had the terms reversed:  They used ppu'si (pu'si)
or ppu'si
ma~'tta~na~ha~ (pu'si maN'taNnaNhaN) for "mountain lion" and i~gdha~'
(iNgthaN') for
"housecat."  He also says that the older generation considered cats in
general to be
important, sacred.  He says the word for "thunder," i~gdha~' hu'tta~
(iNgthaN' hu'taN) is
connected in meaning and interprets it as literally "cat hollering."

                                                    i~gdha~ga
iNgthaNga)  --BL says this word can be used for all cats, including lions.

"monkey"            is^tti'ni~khe (ishti'niNkHe)  --PW and BL both gave this
term for "monkey," but he's also the "trickster" in
Ponca stories.  PW explained the name by saying that the monkey imitates
human beings, and that the name                             comes from
is^te'ga~dhi~kheega~ (ishte'gaNthiNkHeegaN) "something similar to us (human
beings)," from                             is^te' (ishte') "something
similar," according to PW.

"walrus"                wakka~'dagi (wakaN'dagi)  --PW says that this comes
from wakka~'dagi'dhe (wakaN'dagi'the) "he made
himself as a god."  These water monsters feature in the story, or hi'ga~
(hi'gaN), that PW told me about the                             boy who was
made into a door.  At the time he was telling me the story, he said, "We
just call them                                         'walruses.'"

"bigfoot"                nia's^iga ma~tta~na~ha~ (nia'shiga maNtaNnaNhaN),
lit., "wild man"  --PW

"giraffe," "hippo," "whale," "badger"  --Neither PW or BL could think of
words for these.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Awakuni-Swetland" <mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 7:18 AM
Subject: Re: More bears.


> 01 March 2001
>
> The Stabler lexicon glosses
>
> lion             wanita waxa        greater animal  (1977:113)
>
> elephant    tibaxiatha            push over house, referring to its
strength
> (1977:67),
>                                                 as taken from Fletcher and
> La Flesche (1911:103)
>
> giraffe        pasiata wathate    (1977:85)
>
>
> A couple years ago elders at the UmoNhoN Nation Public Schools had
provided
> a term for hippo, but I've momentarily misplaced it.
>
> Sorry, no tigers in Omaha country... although niashiNga hiNshkube (hairy
> man/bigfoot) has been sited recently.
>
> uthixide
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
> Date: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 5:24 PM
> Subject: Re: More bears.
>
>
> >On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, RLR wrote:
> >
> >> > What about lions and tigers? (that's me playing the straight man for
> >> > someone else)
> >>
> >> Hmm, good question. All I know is 'elephant' in Kaw, which is wakkaNda
> >> xoje-ttaNga 'great gray god'.
> >
> >Omaha has nitta ttaNga 'big beast' for 'lion'.
> >
> >JEK


From are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu  Sat Mar 10 04:34:43 2001
From: are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu (ardis eschenberg)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 23:34:43 -0500
Subject: many things
Message-ID: <FRI.9.MAR.2001.233443.0500.>

Well.  I have just read about 600 emails so I apologize that my responses
are tardy & might relate to some things way back, but ...

re: Kathy Shea's cup in Ponca as uxpe
in UmoNhoN it is 'niudhataN'  'water holder'
uxpe is used for plate or dish

I can't find hippo in my notes, but I know there's a word and it has 'water'
in it.  I'll ask monday

re: Bruce Ingham's comments about plants which use ' resembling X'  for
their name:
    We have this in English sort of: False Unicorn Plant
     I think there also are some plants called 'Mock ___' but an example
evades me.

I haven't heard cloudless; clear 'kedha' is consistently used.

Frog: tebia

A venereal disease I remember that Europeans got after contact with the
Americas is syphilis.  I know it came from meso-America; I am unsure of its
range.

re: Kathy Shea's notes on velar aspiration:
aNphaN 'elk' doesn't seem to have this in UmoNhoN

re: OP notation of long vowels:
at the school, we do note them (esp. when contrastive) ex. xtaathe 'I like',
xtatha 's/he likes'

re: Bears
I remember my Russian roomate in Petersburg telling me something about bears
becoming humans (she was very country and so knew lots of folky stuff).

Another example of truncation:
shoNzhiNga 'young horse' (not shoNge zhiNga)

Ok that's my random notes on the emails.  Sorry it lacks promptness, order.
-Ardis


From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu  Sat Mar 10 12:24:27 2001
From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 06:24:27 -0600
Subject: many things
Message-ID: <SAT.10.MAR.2001.062427.0600.>

Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: many things


> re: Kathy Shea's cup in Ponca as uxpe
> in UmoNhoN it is 'niudhataN'  'water holder'
> uxpe is used for plate or dish

The Poncas use uxpe for "plate, dish," too, but cup is uxpe zhiNga,
literally, "little dish."  It's good to know the Omaha word for "cup."  I
seemed to remember that it had something to do with water.

> Another example of truncation:
> shoNzhiNga 'young horse' (not shoNge zhiNga)
>
> -Ardis
>

I was going to mention this example, but, interestingly, in Ponca it means
"puppy."  Apparently, when the word shoNge shifted in Ponca from the older
meaning of "dog" to the newer one of  "horse" as the main pack animal when
horses were introduced to the plains in the 1500's, there was not a parallel
shift in meaning for the word shoNzhiNga.  But there was in Omaha.

Kathy Shea


From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu  Sat Mar 10 12:28:22 2001
From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 06:28:22 -0600
Subject: many things
Message-ID: <SAT.10.MAR.2001.062822.0600.>

> re: Kathy Shea's notes on velar aspiration:
> aNphaN 'elk' doesn't seem to have this in UmoNhoN
>
> -Ardis
>

I'll have to check that.  I'm probably wrong about that.  I am sure about
the velarized aspiration in the word tHaN "step, stand," though.

Kathy


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Tue Mar 13 14:27:40 2001
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:27:40 GMT
Subject: many things
In-Reply-To: <003501c0a91b$7c5f37c0$e3b678cc@ecj8c>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.MAR.2001.142740.GMT.>

Yes that's a good point about the 'false unicorn plant'  and 'mock' XYZ plants.
Perhaps it's not as unlikely as I had thought.

Bruce
Date sent:      	Fri, 9 Mar 2001 23:34:43 -0500
Send reply to:  	siouan at lists.colorado.edu
From:           	"ardis eschenberg" <are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu>
To:             	<siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Subject:        	Re: many things



re: Bruce Ingham's comments about plants which use ' resembling X'  for
their name:
    We have this in English sort of: False Unicorn Plant
     I think there also are some plants called 'Mock ___' but an example
evades me.

I

Dr. Bruce Ingham
Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies
SOAS


From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu  Tue Mar 13 14:54:05 2001
From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark Awakuni-Swetland)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 08:54:05 -0600
Subject: many things
Message-ID: <TUE.13.MAR.2001.085405.0600.>

13 March 2001

...such as Mock Apple, Mock Orange.

As well as there being easily 30+ plants named "False -- "
Mark Awakuni-Swetland



>Yes that's a good point about the 'false unicorn plant'  and 'mock' XYZ
plants.
>Perhaps it's not as unlikely as I had thought.
>
>Bruce


>re: Bruce Ingham's comments about plants which use ' resembling X'  for
>their name:
>    We have this in English sort of: False Unicorn Plant
>     I think there also are some plants called 'Mock ___' but an example
>evades me.
>
>I
>
>Dr. Bruce Ingham
>Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies
>SOAS


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue Mar 13 20:18:22 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 13:18:22 -0700
Subject: many things (fwd)
Message-ID: <TUE.13.MAR.2001.131822.0700.>

On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Bruce Ingham wrote:
> Yes that's a good point about the 'false unicorn plant' and 'mock' XYZ
> plants.  Perhaps it's not as unlikely as I had thought.

Other examples would include technical names in -oid- or pseudo-.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Mar 18 06:28:16 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 23:28:16 -0700
Subject: Thousand
Message-ID: <SAT.17.MAR.2001.232816.0700.>

I'm sorry - I'm afraid it's more etymology.

It's generally reported that Omaha-Ponca kkuge 'box, thousand', derives
from the practice of delivering treaty payments in boxes of a thousand
dollars coins.  I don't actually know what the source is on that anymore,
but I know I've see in several places, probably secondary sources.  I see
that Ioway-Otoe has a similar usage involving a term khoge.

On the other hand, I notice that Dakota has khokta' and khokto'pawiNghe
'thousand', where opawiNghe is 'hundred'.  Also, Dakota has kho'kta
(different stress) 'also, besides'. This appears to be a derivative of
kho' 'and, too, also'.  I think that the pattern must involve the -k-ta
variants of the -ta postposition, as in e-k-ta.  (Incidentally, I think
that this -k-ta accounts for Dhegiha, e.g., OP -tta 'to(ward)' < *-k-ta.)

The box term is khoka' 'keg, barrel', which is a regular match for kkuge,
etc.

I got to wondering if perhaps the actual basis of the thousand term might
be some sort of reanalysis of the 'more, besides' term or something like
it.  I suppose that there might be some historical attestation of the
development of the 'thousand' term.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Mar 18 06:39:22 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 23:39:22 -0700
Subject: Sleeps and Winters
Message-ID: <SAT.17.MAR.2001.233922.0700.>

And more etymology, or, at least, vocabulary.

Does anyone know anything aobut the distribution in North America of
the usage 'sleep(s)' in ennumerating days or 'winter(s)' in ennumerating
years?  Are there any similar patterns I'm overlooking?

I suppose, perhaps falsely, that this is faily widespread in the Siouan
family.  I believe it's the case in Omaha-Ponca (or was), using zhaN '
'sleep' and both ma'dhe 'winter' and usniN' 'cold'.  In Dakota Buechel
lists a term c^(h)aN 'night, day [apparently 24 hour day]' always
accompanied by a numeral and also, laconically, wani'yetu 'winter, year'.
The first of these Dakota terms is a regular cognate of OP zhaN 'sleep',
though it is not the regular verb 'to sleep' in Dakota.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Mar 18 07:06:31 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 00:06:31 -0700
Subject: Omaha-Ponca Long Vowls
Message-ID: <SUN.18.MAR.2001.000631.0700.>

Ardis mentions:
> at the school, we do note them (esp. when contrastive) ex. xtaathe 'I
> like', xtatha 's/he likes'

Sadly, I am perhaps the last person one should discuss OP long vowels
with.  However, I did notice examples like this involving a first person.
Examples like this are, of course, polymorphemic, and, moreover, in my
experience, have decided falling pitch patterns on them that contast
nicely with the pattern on the coresponding third person.

You get this pattern with a causative like xta=dhe:

3rd person xta*=dha(=i)  'like, love'
1st peson  xta*=adhe

Or with the ma= instrumental:

3rd ma*=sa(=i)  'cut (sever with blade)'
1st ma*=ase

Or with the a-locative:

3rd a*gdhiN(=i)   'sit on/down'
1st a*agdhiN

I've used * to mark the place at which the pitch seemed to me to fall.
THat is V1*V2 has V1 high(er) and V2 low(er).  I would normally just write
an accent mark over the V1.

You get the same pattern with the mu= instrumental, too:

3rd mu*=sa(=i)    'sever with a shot'
1st mu*=ase

In fact, the latter sounded to me like [mw*=aase].

Similarly with we'ahide 'far' and similar examples, which I heard as
[we*aahide].

I wonder if the tendency in at least the recording of Omaha-Ponca to find
CV=V'... where CV'=V would be expected might have something to do with
this last transformation, in which it looks like CV1'V2 is transformed to
CV1*V2V2.  The length is perhaps perceived as accent, while the stranded
pitch fall after V1 is not noticed.

The two remarks that round this out are:


1) in monosyllables and second-syllable accented dissylables I noticed a
distinct falling pitch on the (single) vowel in question, e.g.,

he' [he*e]
naNba' [naNba*a]

2) accented vowels do normally sound somewhat longer to me, so that in the
examples above of 3rd vs. 1st contrasts I wouldn't care to say that the
vowel in the third person cases sounded noticeably shorter to me.  But it
certainly lacked the falling contour.

JEK


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Sun Mar 18 17:28:35 2001
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 11:28:35 -0600
Subject: Sleeps and Winters
Message-ID: <SUN.18.MAR.2001.112835.0600.>

> Does anyone know anything aobut the distribution in North America of
> the usage 'sleep(s)' in ennumerating days or 'winter(s)' in ennumerating
> years?

Ojibway has pipo:n 'winter, year', e.g. nisso pipo:n 'three years'
[Baraga _Dict. Otchipwe Lang._]

Blackfoot kaanistsísstoyiimihpa 'how old are you?' is literally (as
close as I can tell) 'how many winters have you?' (sstoyii 'be
cold/winter) [Frantz & Russell _Blackfoot Dict._]

Iñupiat has ukiuk 'winter, year' [Webster & Zibell _Iñupiat Eskimo
Dict._]

Chinook Jargon has cole 'winter, year', from Eng. cold, e.g., ikt cole
'one year' [Thomas _Chinook_].

In Plains sign language, the signs for 'winter' and 'year' are the same
[Clark _Indian Sign Language_].

Creek and Alabama apparently lack both the year=winter and day=sleep
equations. (My cursory look showed no example of the latter in any
language.)

Virginia Algonquian used cohonk (wild goose) as 'year'.

Alan


From are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu  Sun Mar 18 19:15:28 2001
From: are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu (ardis eschenberg)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 14:15:28 -0500
Subject: Omaha-Ponca Long Vowls
Message-ID: <SUN.18.MAR.2001.141528.0500.>

In regard to John's:
> 2) accented vowels do normally sound somewhat longer to me, so that in the
> examples above of 3rd vs. 1st contrasts I wouldn't care to say that the
> vowel in the third person cases sounded noticeably shorter to me.  But it
> certainly lacked the falling contour.

The first person cases are MARKEDLY longer.  This is not simply stress.  And
I do agree that a type of pitch contour seems to be associated.
BTW:
the 1pl also is long with 'like'  xtoNoNtha

 I've been trying to think of non-verb long vowels, which would thus not
necesarily be polymorphemic.  The other day in class we got
moNhi khe paai.    'The knife is sharp.'

where the word for sharp was long and not just stressed.  Note that it was
translated as singular and not plural so I don't think it's some kind of
reduplication.  I have an idea of how to get this in contrast...I'll try it
this week.

-Ardis


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Mar 19 00:18:50 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 17:18:50 -0700
Subject: Sleeps and Winters (fwd)
Message-ID: <SUN.18.MAR.2001.171850.0700.>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 10:36:25 -0600
From: "Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu>
To: 'Koontz John E ' <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
Subject: RE: Sleeps and Winters


> laconically, wani'yetu 'winter, year'.

The Kaws seem to have used omoNyiNkka for 'year' in the Dorsey texts, but it
is also used for 'season'.

Koontz adds:

In OP umaN'[dh]iNkka, 'season, year', also sometimes used in counting
ages.  And I've always noticed maN[dh]iN'kka 'earth, soil'.

(Bob asked me to post this for him as his university email address has
unexpectedly changed, cutting him off temporarily from posting access.
JEK)


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Mar 19 00:22:07 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 17:22:07 -0700
Subject: Thousand (fwd)
Message-ID: <SUN.18.MAR.2001.172207.0700.>

Anohter post for RLR:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 10:40:46 -0600
From: "Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu>
To: 'Koontz John E ' <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
Subject: RE: Thousand


> It's generally reported that Omaha-Ponca kkuge 'box, thousand', derives
> from the practice of delivering treaty payments in boxes of a thousand
> dollar coins.  I don't actually know what the source is on that
> anymore,

I believe Mrs. Rowe was the first to mention this to me. But I'm no longer
certain.

The (Dakota) box term is khoka' 'keg, barrel', which is a regular match for
kkuge, etc.

I've always assumed this was ultimately derived from the verb 'to make a
hollow sound'.  As probably is 'gourd'.    bob


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Mar 19 00:55:14 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 17:55:14 -0700
Subject: Omaha-Ponca Long Vowls
In-Reply-To: <001e01c0afdf$d2e402e0$dab678cc@ecj8c>
Message-ID: <SUN.18.MAR.2001.175514.0700.>

On Sun, 18 Mar 2001, ardis eschenberg wrote:
> I've been trying to think of non-verb long vowels, which would thus not
> necesarily be polymorphemic.

I suspect one could find verbal examples that didn't involve vowel
sequences.

> The other day in class we got moNhi khe paai.  'The knife is sharp.'

This is perhaps helpful because it is a widespread cognate set, involving
loss of intervocalic h in OP.

Da phe
OP ppai (not marking length) (perhaps also in MaNzEppe 'axe')
IO pha'hiN
Wi paahi'

There are various ways to approach the length in Winnebago.  One approach
might be to see it as a relict of historical initial stress, but one also
has to wonder why the form was originally initially stressed, and the
usual answer on that is to wonder if historically this stem might not have
had a long vowel in the initial syllable.  For some reason length is
slightly more perceivable in Winnebago than it has proved elsewhere.  One
obvious suggestion - it has certainly occurred to me - has been that Ken
Miner (working on Winnebago) is a somewhat better phonetician than, e.g.,
John Koontz.  I've been given to understand that length is not always that
easy to perceive in Winnebago, but I nevertheless feel a certain
embarasment on the whole subject.

The real questions are, of course, (a) is the length really there in
Omaha-Ponca, which seems to be the case, and (b) is it contrastive in
accented syllables and in non-accented syllables, omitting any possibility
of polymorphemic sequences.  It would suffice to be contrastive in one or
the other of accented and unaccented syllables, of course.  It wouldn't
have to be both, and it would be typical Siouan phonological perversity if
it weren't.  We might even want to be prepared for something like a length
contrast in accented initial syllables, but not in non-initial syllables,
accented or otherwise.

I think Kathy Shea has a few clear examples of a length contast in
accented syllables, but I haven't heard of any in unaccented syllables.

In passing, note the waffling on the nasality of the final vowel between
IO and Wi, an interesting issue.

> where the word for sharp was long and not just stressed.  Note that it was
> translated as singular and not plural so I don't think it's some kind of
> reduplication.

I think you can rule that out, but I'll be interested to see what the test
produces.

> I have an idea of how to get this in contrast...I'll try it
> this week.

Where do you pereceive stress, pitch, or whatever?


From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu  Mon Mar 19 06:25:53 2001
From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 00:25:53 -0600
Subject: Omaha-Ponca Long Vowls
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.002553.0600.>

As Bob has pointed out to me, we need to listen for length and record it and
then go back to look at the stress.  It is hard, though.  I haven't been
very systematic about it so far.  When I first started doing fieldwork,
almost every vowel sounded long to me, so I stopped writing long vowels as
much.  I need to go back and look at my notes again.  Anyway, the few times
that I've become aware of minimal pairs for length have been when I've been
corrected by native speakers.  This was true of the now worn examples I've
given of vowel length not spanning a morpheme boundary (repeated here in the
accepted Ponca practical writing system with the adopted convention of
writing the accent mark over the first mora of a double, or long, vowel):
naN'aNde "heart" vs. naN'de "inside perimeter of a tipi (tent)" and niN'iNde
"ripe, cooked, done" vs. niN'de "person's backside, buttocks."  In order to
pronounce these two examples with long vowels to the satisfaction of native
speakers, I usually try to include a rising-falling pitch or a "catch" in my
throat (slight glottal stop or creaky voice), or both when saying the
vowels.  If I ask Ponca speakers if the vowel sounds long or drawn out, they
usually say that, no, it's cut off (due to the glottal stop)!  You all know
that Bob has written an article on this phenomenon of Ponca vowel length
associated with rising-falling pitch/glottal stop/creaky voice.  Another
word where I hear this type of "length" is in my name, TesaN'aNwiN, where
saN'aN means "pale, milky or dirty white."  Of course all these examples
have long nasal vowels.  Several months ago in one of our Ponca language
workshops, again in a case where the fluent Ponca speaker--Henry Lieb, the
Ponca language teacher at Frontier High School in Red Rock--wasn't happy
with my initial pronunciation, we came up with an example of a minimal
triplet.  As I recall (off the top of my head) it involved she'e thaN "the
(round) apple" vs. she' thaN "that (round object)" vs. shethaN' (?).  (I'm
sorry, I've forgotten the meaning for the last word.  I think it means
something like "while" or "then.")  Anyway, Ardis, you might want to try
eliciting those words.  I wish I could offer more enlightening observations,
but that's all I have for now.

Kathy

----- Original Message -----
From: "Koontz John E" <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 6:55 PM
Subject: Re: Omaha-Ponca Long Vowls


> On Sun, 18 Mar 2001, ardis eschenberg wrote:
> > I've been trying to think of non-verb long vowels, which would thus not
> > necesarily be polymorphemic.
>
> I suspect one could find verbal examples that didn't involve vowel
> sequences.
>
> > The other day in class we got moNhi khe paai.  'The knife is sharp.'
>
> This is perhaps helpful because it is a widespread cognate set, involving
> loss of intervocalic h in OP.
>
> Da phe
> OP ppai (not marking length) (perhaps also in MaNzEppe 'axe')
> IO pha'hiN
> Wi paahi'
>
> There are various ways to approach the length in Winnebago.  One approach
> might be to see it as a relict of historical initial stress, but one also
> has to wonder why the form was originally initially stressed, and the
> usual answer on that is to wonder if historically this stem might not have
> had a long vowel in the initial syllable.  For some reason length is
> slightly more perceivable in Winnebago than it has proved elsewhere.  One
> obvious suggestion - it has certainly occurred to me - has been that Ken
> Miner (working on Winnebago) is a somewhat better phonetician than, e.g.,
> John Koontz.  I've been given to understand that length is not always that
> easy to perceive in Winnebago, but I nevertheless feel a certain
> embarasment on the whole subject.
>
> The real questions are, of course, (a) is the length really there in
> Omaha-Ponca, which seems to be the case, and (b) is it contrastive in
> accented syllables and in non-accented syllables, omitting any possibility
> of polymorphemic sequences.  It would suffice to be contrastive in one or
> the other of accented and unaccented syllables, of course.  It wouldn't
> have to be both, and it would be typical Siouan phonological perversity if
> it weren't.  We might even want to be prepared for something like a length
> contrast in accented initial syllables, but not in non-initial syllables,
> accented or otherwise.
>
> I think Kathy Shea has a few clear examples of a length contast in
> accented syllables, but I haven't heard of any in unaccented syllables.
>
> In passing, note the waffling on the nasality of the final vowel between
> IO and Wi, an interesting issue.
>
> > where the word for sharp was long and not just stressed.  Note that it
was
> > translated as singular and not plural so I don't think it's some kind of
> > reduplication.
>
> I think you can rule that out, but I'll be interested to see what the test
> produces.
>
> > I have an idea of how to get this in contrast...I'll try it
> > this week.
>
> Where do you pereceive stress, pitch, or whatever?
>
>


From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu  Mon Mar 19 06:31:56 2001
From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 00:31:56 -0600
Subject: Sleeps and Winters (fwd)
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.003156.0600.>

The Ponca usage is the same as the Omaha.

Kathy

----- Original Message -----
From: "Koontz John E" <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 6:18 PM
Subject: RE: Sleeps and Winters (fwd)


> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 10:36:25 -0600
> From: "Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu>
> To: 'Koontz John E ' <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
> Subject: RE: Sleeps and Winters
>
>
> > laconically, wani'yetu 'winter, year'.
>
> The Kaws seem to have used omoNyiNkka for 'year' in the Dorsey texts, but
it
> is also used for 'season'.
>
> Koontz adds:
>
> In OP umaN'[dh]iNkka, 'season, year', also sometimes used in counting
> ages.  And I've always noticed maN[dh]iN'kka 'earth, soil'.
>
> (Bob asked me to post this for him as his university email address has
> unexpectedly changed, cutting him off temporarily from posting access.
> JEK)


From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu  Mon Mar 19 07:10:42 2001
From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 01:10:42 -0600
Subject: Thousand (fwd)
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.011042.0600.>

I don't have much to add to this, except that I'm reminded that the Ponca
name of Old Man McDonald, who raised James P. Williams, the father of
Parrish Williams, winegi and one of the elders teaching me Ponca, was
ttaN'de naNkku'ge (TaN'de NaNku'ge) "making the ground roar (drumming or
pounding the ground by running)."  I'll try to find out more about the
origin of the meaning of "thousand" for kku'ge (ku'ge) at the day-long
workshop that the Ponca Language Arts Council is holding tomorrow,
especially since Henry Lieb, the Ponca language teacher in the high school,
whom most of the Dhegihanists met at our last Siouan and Caddoan Languages
conference, has been teaching how to do arithmetic in Ponca lately and plans
to show us some of the materials he's been using in his lessons.

Kathy

----- Original Message -----
From: "Koontz John E" <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 6:22 PM
Subject: RE: Thousand (fwd)


> Anohter post for RLR:
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 10:40:46 -0600
> From: "Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu>
> To: 'Koontz John E ' <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
> Subject: RE: Thousand
>
>
> > It's generally reported that Omaha-Ponca kkuge 'box, thousand', derives
> > from the practice of delivering treaty payments in boxes of a thousand
> > dollar coins.  I don't actually know what the source is on that
> > anymore,
>
> I believe Mrs. Rowe was the first to mention this to me. But I'm no longer
> certain.
>
> The (Dakota) box term is khoka' 'keg, barrel', which is a regular match
for
> kkuge, etc.
>
> I've always assumed this was ultimately derived from the verb 'to make a
> hollow sound'.  As probably is 'gourd'.    bob


From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu  Mon Mar 19 12:37:21 2001
From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 06:37:21 -0600
Subject: Box, 1000
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.063721.0600.>

Here is the relavent Wi material:

kokiz^aN	               one box; one thousand (dollars in a box) [Dorsey]
kog	                    box [Marino-Radin]
kogera (cogue-er-rah)	  trunk-chest, box [George]
kokera 	                box [Foster, Marino-Radin]
kokara	                 boxes [Dorsey]
kok	                    box [Dorsey from Longtail]
kok	                    box [vid. koc, to bundle?] [Marino-Radin]
kogowanana	             rolling box; barrel [cf. wan�, to roll] [Marino-Radin]
kokawanana	             a barrel [Dorsey]
kokawaNnaNnaN 	         barrel [Foster]
kok'hoaris^	            hoop [Gatschet]

hoki-ihi	               one thousand [Gatschet]
okihi xatez^a	          one thousand [Gatschet]
okihiz^a	               one hundred [Gatschet]
okihiz^aN	              one hundred [Dorsey]


From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu  Mon Mar 19 12:44:03 2001
From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 06:44:03 -0600
Subject: Sleeps & Winters
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.064403.0600.>

"Does anyone know anything about the distribution in North America of
the usage 'sleep(s)' in ennumerating days or 'winter(s)' in ennumerating
years?"

This pattern hold in Wi.  The Four Nights Wake, as Radin calls it, is really the
Four Sleepings in Wi.


From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu  Mon Mar 19 13:03:41 2001
From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark Awakuni-Swetland)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 07:03:41 -0600
Subject: Back to the Platte
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.070341.0600.>

19 March 2001
>>From the earlier discussion about the term Nibthaska and its reference to "shallowness?"

In the preface to La Flesche's "The Middle Five," he notes that..."Most of the country now known as the State of Nebraska (the Omaha name of the river Plattt, descriptive of its shallowness, width, and low banks)..." (1963:xix).

The geese are coming back, so the warm weather will soon be here to stay.

Aloha,
uthixide


Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Lecturer
Anthropology/Ethnic Studies
c/o Department of Anthropology-Geography
University of Nebraska
Bessey Hall 132
Lincoln, NE 68588-0368
Office 402-472-3455
Dept. 402-472-2411
FAX 402-472-9642
mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu
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From are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu  Mon Mar 19 19:10:40 2001
From: are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu (ardis eschenberg)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:10:40 -0500
Subject: Thousand (fwd)
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.141040.0500.>

UmoNdhiNkha is the normal way 'year' is referred to by the speakers I know
(Omaha).

Re: Kathy's long vowels:
I have gotten niNde for 'butt' and niide for 'ripe,' but I'll try listening
again.  Hmmm...It's hard for me to hear nasalization after a nasal.  For
example, with the verb 'to be' bthiN 'I am' sounds very nasal but niN 'you
are' sounds just like assimilated nasality.

Re: Paai 'sharp'
this is also used for 'porcupine' but there wasn't the contrast I hope for.
I perceive accent on the vowel sequence.  Likely on the dipthong but there
is a definite 'a' sound leading into it.

Next time I record...

Geese, robins, a bluejay here...loveliness.
-Ardis


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Mar 19 20:16:03 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 13:16:03 -0700
Subject: Sleep/Winter
In-Reply-To: <003701c0b0a8$5667a040$d9b678cc@ecj8c>
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.131603.0700.>

On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, ardis eschenberg wrote:

> UmoNdhiNkha is the normal way 'year' is referred to by the speakers I know
> (Omaha).

The examples of 'sleeps' and 'winters' as counting units are all in the
Dorsey texts, though there are some 'years/seasons' counting examples
there, too.  (Also a neat word for a 'two year old colt', not related to
either.)


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Mar 19 20:26:21 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 13:26:21 -0700
Subject: Sleep/Winter
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0103191306240.12345-100000@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.132621.0700.>

On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, Koontz John E wrote:

> On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, ardis eschenberg wrote:
>
> > UmoNdhiNkha is the normal way 'year' is referred to by the speakers I know
> > (Omaha).
>
> The examples of 'sleeps' and 'winters' as counting units are all in the
> Dorsey texts, ...

And, as far as I know, the 'winter' is only used in the sense of 'year' in
counting ages or elapsed time.

JEK


From mosind at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 20:10:10 2001
From: mosind at yahoo.com (Wablenica)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 23:10:10 +0300
Subject: Sleeps and Winters
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.231010.0300.>

>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 10:36:25 -0600
>From: "Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu>
>To: 'Koontz John E ' <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
>Subject: RE: Sleeps and Winters
>
>The Kaws seem to have used omoNyiNkka for 'year' in the Dorsey texts, but
it
>is also used for 'season'.
>
>Koontz adds:
>
>In OP umaN'[dh]iNkka, 'season, year', also sometimes used in counting
>ages.  And I've always noticed maN[dh]iN'kka 'earth, soil'.


Lakhota also has o'makxa - season, year.
I wonder, how/why do these words in Siouan relate to makxa "earth"?


_________________________________________________________
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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Mar 19 20:41:11 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 13:41:11 -0700
Subject: 'Heart'
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.134111.0700.>

Incidentally, naN'aNde 'heart' is NOT a *R word.  It belongs to a small
class of body part terms that have *y > c^h in Dakotan, but *r/_VN > n
elsewhere in Mississippi Valley Siouan.  So the set here is Lakota c^haNl
~ c^haNte', OP naN'aNde, Wi naNaNc^ (I seem to recall this alternant) ~
naNaNc^ge'.  This particular term normally as a -ge < *-ka extension in
independent form in Winnebago.  The alternants in Dakotan and perhaps
Winnebago show that this stem is "consonant final" in some sense.

Actually, since only Dakotan and Dhegiha distinguish *y and *r, it's kind
of hard to say what happens in Chiwere, Winnebago, Mandan, etc., where
these merge.

I suspect that the variation here has to do with different treatments of
forms with/without inalienable possessor pronominals prefixed, though body
part terms are not usually inalienable in modern MV languages.
Hypothetically, for example, suppose the stem was *aNt-, and *i-aNt-
'his/her heart' > *yaNt- in PreDakotan, but in PreDhegiha *aNt- ~
*i-r-aNt- with an epenthetic r was perhaps reanalyzed as a *raNt-.

There are some complications with carrying this to other branches of
Siouan, and I don't want to insist that this is the particular explanation
involved.  For example, in Crow-Hidatsa there is a paradigmatic opposition
between body parts (normally possessed inalienably) that seem to have an
organic initial i and those that don't.  I don't recall the details.  I
seem to recall that this doesn't line exactly with the *y : *r sets, but I
wonder if it might be connected.

Anyway, it might be interesting to see if any of the other *y : *r sets
might involve length, even if there aren't minimal pairs.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Mar 19 21:02:20 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:02:20 -0700
Subject: More on Long Vow(e)ls
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.140220.0700.>

As long as I'm thinking about it, there are some other accentual things
in OP that I noticed in Dorsey after my fieldwork that I've always
wondered about.

One of them is pretty straight forward and not much real help, except
perhaps historically.  This is that the syncopated pronominals with
dh-stems (or th-stems) and others behave as if they were moras for
accentuation.

So it's

bdha'the 'I eat'
(s^)na'the 'you eat'

and

aNdha'tha(=i) 'we eat'

but

dhatha'(=i) 'he/she eats'

Notice that the b and (now lost) s^ act like syllables (in some sense) to
pull stress to the first syllable of the root, just as the inclusive aN
and various other prefixes do.

(Yes, *r or *dh in *s^r or *s^dh is acting like *R, and it does so in
Dakotan, too, but not in Ioway-Otoe or Winnebago.)

I guess that something like this is happening in gaghe, too:

ppa'ghe
s^ka'ghe

aNga'gha(=i)

gagha'=i


And in daNbe 'see':

ttaN'be
s^taN'be

aNdaN'ba(=i)

daNba'(=i)

Of course with the pleonastic modern first and second persons in attaN'be,
dhas^taN'be this pattern is erased here.

I think I am remembering all this correctly, but I have the impression
that some of these stems have initial stress when the plural/proximate
marker is missing, e.g., ga'ghe, daN'be, etc.  But dhathe'?  Which would
seem to be saying that OP has an analog of the unaccentable final vowels
in Dakotan in some contexts.

Needless to say, these are the kind of stems where one might expect to
find some long vowels perhaps varying under different accentual schemes,
e.g., ??gaa'ghe ~ ??ga(?)gha'=i.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Mar 19 21:12:11 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:12:11 -0700
Subject: Season/Year and Earth (was Re: Sleeps and Winters)
In-Reply-To: <001c01c0b0b5$04456600$a661bcd4@wablenica>
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.141211.0700.>

On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, Wablenica wrote:
> >In OP umaN'[dh]iNkka, 'season, year', also sometimes used in counting
> >ages.  And I've always noticed maN[dh]iN'kka 'earth, soil'.
>
> Lakhota also has o'makxa - season, year.
> I wonder, how/why do these words in Siouan relate to makxa "earth"?

Me, too.  There's an obvious connection of earth in the extended sense of
the whole earthen surface of the earth and season.  Somehow 'in earth' =
'season'.  Maybe 'on earth' would be a better reading?  Or is it just a
coincidence inherited from Proto-Siouan?

And what is the extra -dhiN- syllable in Dhegiha?  In OP the dh is never
nasalized to n, and the dh can be left out in fast speech.

There's another unusual dh in is^tiniNkhe 'Trickster' (aka 'Monkey' in
OP).  Here it is usually nasalized to n, but I've seen dh, too, and in IO
it is deleted, leaving is^tiNkhe.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Mar 19 20:23:55 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 13:23:55 -0700
Subject: Omaha-Ponca Long Vowels
In-Reply-To: <003701c0b0a8$5667a040$d9b678cc@ecj8c>
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.132355.0700.>

On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, ardis eschenberg wrote:
> Re: Kathy's long vowels:
> I have gotten niNde for 'butt' and niide for 'ripe,' but I'll try listening
> again.  Hmmm...It's hard for me to hear nasalization after a nasal.  For
> example, with the verb 'to be' bthiN 'I am' sounds very nasal but niN 'you
> are' sounds just like assimilated nasality.

For what it is worth, niide 'ripe' isn't historically nasal.  It's a
"funny *R" word, corresponding to Osage cu'ce and Lakota luta 'red'.  I
think Winnebago has duuc^.  The "funny R" words have a nasal reflex of the
consonant "funny *R" in OP, but nowhere else.

Note, of course, that what was true historically need not be the case
today.  There's no reason why this or other n from funny *R words
shouldn't be nasalized today.  In cases where the n precedes e or u < *o,
one might not expect this (negi 'mother's brother', neghe 'pot', ne 'lake'
(said to be Ponca only), nu 'man', 'nu 'potato'), but there are cases of
*R before i, a, and *u > i, where nasalization could occur.  At the moment
I'm not recalling the examples (other than 'ripe', of course).  I think
'ice' is nughe from *Roogh(e).  One of the various senses of naNzhiN may
be an a-example - hair'?

What does come to me is that *pr also behaves as *R in nouns in OP, e.g.,
in nu 'man', and nu 'potato' compare Lakota bloka', blo, and ne 'lake',
compare Dakota ble.  And the *pr can precede a nasal vowel, as in ni(N?)
'fluid, water, major river' compare Dakota mni.

JEK

P.S.  Sorry about typing vowel as vowl in the subject earlier.  See what I
mean about me and vowel length?


From CRudin at wscgate.wsc.edu  Mon Mar 19 21:37:50 2001
From: CRudin at wscgate.wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 15:37:50 -0600
Subject: More on Long Vow (e)ls
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.153750.0600.>

> I have the impression
>that some of these stems have initial stress when the plural/proximate
>marker is missing, e.g., ga'ghe, daN'be, etc.  But dhathe'?

I certainly always hear(d) first syllable accent in these.  But then I nearly
always marked initial accent with the plural/proximate too -- lots of
ga'gha=i=the etc. in my texts.  As John knows I sometimes hear(d) accent on a
different syllable than where he marks it, perhaps because I expected stress
instead of pitch accent...

For what it's worth!  Catherine


From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu  Mon Mar 19 22:48:14 2001
From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 16:48:14 -0600
Subject: Year, Earth
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.164814.0600.>

"Lakhota also has o'makxa - season, year. I wonder, how/why do these words in
Siouan relate to makxa 'earth'?" --"Wablenica"

I had assumed that maN, "earth," and maN, "year," were accidental homonyms.
Here's what I've gotten so far in Wi:

maN	                  year, years [Dorsey-Longtail, Gatschet]
maN 	                 time [Marino-Radin]
maNn	                 year [Gatschet]
maNiz^aN	             a year [Dorsey]
maN nubohanaNga	      to elapse (of years) ? [cf. nup] [Marino-Radin]
maNjiregaN	           as the years go by; year by year [cf. maN, earth; jire, to
                      go by] [Marino-Radin]
maNgicawaN	           forever, for eternity [cf. maN, time; ca, waN]
                      [Marino-Radin]
maNnegus	             all the years past [narrator of "Wor�xega"]
maNnegusdi	           forever (to measure by the earth) [narrator of "Ghost
                      Dance"]
maNnegusji	           forever, always [cf. maN, time] [Marino-Radin]
maNni	                winter [cf. ni, agentive nominalizer ?] [Marino-Radin]
mani	                 winter [Gatschet, Dorsey]
mani hinz^i huwire	   the last year [Gatschet]
maNnina (maah-nee-nah)	year, winter.  "This really means 'winters' -- the
                       Winnebago count years by winters." [George]
manit'e	              this winter [Dorsey]
manine 	              this winter [James StCyr]
manine	               last winter [Gatschet]
maninga	              in winter [Aleck Lonetree]
maNniniz^aN          	a year [George]
maNs'ireja	           long years ago [Rufus Tiver]
MaN canaha raniz^e?	  How old are you? [Gatschet]
mokahi	               a number of years [cf. kahi ?] [Marino-Radin]
maNci	                to winter [cf. maN, time; ci, lodge][Marino-Radin]
marace	               to plan [cf. maN, earth, time][Marino-Radin]

maNna                 the ground [Dorsey]
maNra (maun-dah)	     ground [George]
ma	                   earth, ground [Gatschet]
ma	                   lands, country [Gatschet]
maN	                  earth [Gatschet, Dorsey-Longtail, Marino-Radin]
maN	                  ground [Gatschet]
maNna	                the land [narrator of "Wor�xega"]
mo	                   earth, time (an older form of maN) [Marino-Radin]
MaN'u�na	             Earthmaker, the Creator [Dorsey]

The narrator of "Ghost Dance" gives the gloss for maNnegusdi as "(to measure by
the earth)," but that, I think, is just folk etymology. I find it odd that
Marino suggests that the root of maNjiregaN, "as the years go by,"	is maN,
"earth."

maN also means, "a spring, shell, nest, arrow, wind, to strike." Some of these
homonyms give rise to mythological symbolism (arrow for time, perhaps).


From rankin at ku.edu  Mon Mar 19 23:15:49 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 17:15:49 -0600
Subject: More on Long Vow (e)ls
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.171549.0600.>

Everyone,

I've been trying manfully not to weigh in on the vowel length business
because I have a bunch of deadlines that have to be met over Spring Break
(which it is here this week). BUT I can no longer resist. I will handle the
correspondence in reverse chronological order because that's how our brand
new, crappy email program makes me do it from "dial-in".

> I have the impression
>that some of these stems have initial stress when the plural/proximate
>marker is missing, e.g., ga'ghe, daN'be, etc.  But dhathe'?

I certainly always hear(d) first syllable accent in these.  But then I
nearly always marked initial accent with the plural/proximate too -- lots of
ga'gha=i=the etc. in my texts.  As John knows I sometimes hear(d) accent
on a different syllable than where he marks it, perhaps because I expected
stress instead of pitch accent...

I do too. But gaaghe always has a long vowel for me (that's in Kaw, of
course).  It's conjugated ppaaghe, $kaaghe, gaaghabe, oNgaaghabe, with
accent on the long V throughout. doNbe 'see' also has initial accent
throughout the 1st, 2nd, 3rd person. I am not so sure about 'chew, eat'. I
am pretty sure though that it is conjugated bláche, hnáche, yachábe, but I
am uncertain of the vowel length here. I think the á is long in the 1st and
2nd person forms.

Bob


From rankin at ku.edu  Mon Mar 19 23:37:15 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 17:37:15 -0600
Subject: random phonological observations.
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.173715.0600.>

> Re: Kathy's long vowels:
> I have gotten niNde for 'butt' and niide for 'ripe,' but I'll try
listening again.

For what it is worth, niide 'ripe' isn't historically nasal.  It's a
"funny *R" word, corresponding to Osage cu'ce and Lakota luta 'red'.  I
think Winnebago has duuc^.  The "funny R" words have a nasal reflex of
the consonant "funny *R" in OP, but nowhere else.

Yep, Kaw jü:je 'cooked, ripe' (Initial syll. accent).

What does come to me is that *pr also behaves as *R in nouns in OP,
e.g., in nu 'man', and nu 'potato' compare Lakota bloka', blo, and ne
'lake', compare Dakota ble.  And the *pr can precede a nasal vowel, as in
ni(N?)'fluid, water, major river' compare Dakota mni.

For the record, my analysis of these clusters is a little different from
John's. I identify the /b/ of ble, blo, bloka, etc. and the /m/ of mni as
reflexes of what we sometimes (probably inaccurately) call the "absolutive
prefix". For me that would have been *wa- with inanimate nouns and *wi- with
animate nouns. Therefore, for me, there is no such cluster as *pr. /bl/ and
/mn/ both go back to somewhat earlier *w-r (after vowel syncope), one in a
nasal and the other in a non-nasal environment.

In fact, I derive ALL [b]'s in Dakotan through earlier *w. Even the syllable
codas in b~m found in causatives, reduplications, etc. go through the /w/
stage as Dakotan allows only sonorants in syllable codas. This accounts for
the analogous reduplications in l~d, g~ng from ultimately underlying -t and
-k also.

P.S.  Sorry about typing vowel as vowl in the subject earlier.  See what
I mean about me and vowel length?

That would be the "zero grade", wouldn't it?

bob


From rankin at ku.edu  Mon Mar 19 23:48:11 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 17:48:11 -0600
Subject: More on Long Vow(e)ls
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.174811.0600.>

> As long as I'm thinking about it, there are some other accentual things
in OP that I noticed in Dorsey after my fieldwork that I've always
wondered about.

> One of them is pretty straight forward and not much real help, except
perhaps historically.  This is that the syncopated pronominals with
dh-stems (or th-stems) and others behave as if they were moras for
accentuation.

Another instance of lost initial syllable vowels, as in the wa- wi- prefixes
I mentioned in my last posting.

>So it's
bdha'the 'I eat'
(s^)na'the 'you eat'
and
aNdha'tha(=i) 'we eat'
but
dhatha'(=i) 'he/she eats'

That works just like Kaw. But for whatever reason the verbs with inherently
long vowels like gaaghe 'make, do'doesn't shift.

Notice that the b and (now lost) s^ act like syllables (in some sense)
to pull stress to the first syllable of the root, just as the inclusive aN
and various other prefixes do.

(Yes, *r or *dh in *s^r or *s^dh is acting like *R, and it does so in
Dakotan, too, but not in Ioway-Otoe or Winnebago.)

I guess that something like this is happening in gaghe, too:

ppa'ghe
s^ka'ghe
aNga'gha(=i)
gagha'=i

That's where I am getting gáaghabe. with the long V.

Bob


From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Mar 20 00:21:08 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 18:21:08 -0600
Subject: Siouan Long Vowls
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.182108.0600.>

> The real questions are, of course, (a) is the length really there in
> Omaha-Ponca, which seems to be the case, and (b) is it contrastive in
> accented syllables and in non-accented syllables, omitting any
> possibility of polymorphemic sequences.

> It would suffice to be contrastive in one or the other of accented and >
unaccented syllables, of course.  It wouldn't have to be both, and it >
would be typical Siouan phonological perversity if it weren't.

I think we are ignoring some basic tenets of phonology. It would suffice
even if all long vowels were traceable to polymorphemic sequences. It isn't
legitimate to consider the morphological environments in determining what is
distinctive in the phonology. For example, many instances of 'locative a-
prefix' are derivational and have little or no semantic content. The only
way they are identifiable is if we write them properly, either with a length
diacritic or with double vowels when they appear in sequences with other
instances of /a/. If we permit ourselves (as Dorsey often did) to write wa+a
or, worse, wa+a+a all as "wa-", we have made our transcription useless to
future generations. It will only be useful if we write ALL long vowels as
long. It isn't legit to write length "just where there is contrast". Who
knows in advance where there will be contrast?

Looked at across Siouan, it is notable that Crow, Hidatsa and Tutelo and
Ofo, at opposite geographical ends of the family, had length transcribed in
the same (i.e., cognate) lexemes as early as the late 19th and early 20th
century. Miner's Winnebago clearly shows that this persisted into
Mississippi Valley Siouan.

These languages have length in both accented and unaccented syllables. They
also have it morpheme-internally as well as at boundaries. If memory serves
(and Randy can correct me on this) Crow has three degrees of length, tho' I
don't know how this is resolved phonetically. High, low, rising and falling
pitch are all distinctive. I don't see how we can do less than transcribe
these things just as we hear them without ANY "assumptions" about
predictability.

Note that I am as guilty as everyone else in my early field transcriptions.
I am going to have to retranscribe all my notes before going much farther.

Bob


From Zylogy at aol.com  Tue Mar 20 05:23:40 2001
From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 00:23:40 EST
Subject: Year, Earth
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAR.2001.002340.EST.>

Hi. Just to add in my usual off the wall observation- in many languages the
morpheme for year/cycle/weather is similar in phonological shape to that for
earth/ground (and there may also be a case for person/man). Fellow travelers
from some distant time? I'm not sure I believe they ultimately have the
"same" etymology.

In any case, interestingly, in these languages the morphemes usually begin
with some rounded phoneme, either a labio-back or labial, and end in some
apical or nearly. Go figure. It would be interesting to know whether sound
changes were coordinate between the true etyma, w>m or vice versa, etc. *WEL
vs *MEN (articulatory positions pushed ahead one space on the phonological
cube), etc.  English, by the way, is one of the languages. Maybe a place to
look also are interrogative/irrealis formatives, which also tend to take
(k)w-/m- initials in reconstructed forms.

Jess Tauber
zylogy at aol.com
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From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU  Tue Mar 20 15:34:46 2001
From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 08:34:46 -0700
Subject: a phonetic mystery
In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A4413E3@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAR.2001.083446.0700.>

Dear Bob and everyone else,
	I would like confirmation of the following from others who listen
to Lakhota, but I hear a contrast between mni 'water', with an oral vowel,
and mniN kte 'I will go' with a nasal "i".  If that's the case, isn't
there a problem with deriving the m-n of 'water' from *w-r+nasal?  I still
think we have been far too sloppy in our listening to Lak. vowels after
nasal consonants, but it would take a dedicated study to straighten it
out, preferably one that uses instrumental phonetics and a variety of
speakers from different places and age groups.  Until we do this, however,
I think all our *w & *r reconstructions are suspect.
	DAvid


David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
Campus Box 295
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu


From ccpp at cetlink.net  Tue Mar 20 15:58:14 2001
From: ccpp at cetlink.net (Catawba Cultural Center)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 10:58:14 -0500
Subject: Year, Earth
In-Reply-To: <iss.2772.3ab68caa.d2a0.1@garnet.tc.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAR.2001.105814.0500.>

In Catawba, the word for "earth" and "year" is the same, and the word for
"month" and "moon, sun" is the same.

Catawba Cultural Preservation Project

-----Original Message-----
From:	owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Richard L. Dieterle
Sent:	Monday, March 19, 2001 5:48 PM
To:	siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject:	Year, Earth

"Lakhota also has o'makxa - season, year. I wonder, how/why do these words
in
Siouan relate to makxa 'earth'?" --"Wablenica"

I had assumed that maN, "earth," and maN, "year," were accidental homonyms.
Here's what I've gotten so far in Wi:

maN	                  year, years [Dorsey-Longtail, Gatschet]
maN 	                 time [Marino-Radin]
maNn	                 year [Gatschet]
maNiz^aN	             a year [Dorsey]
maN nubohanaNga	      to elapse (of years) ? [cf. nup] [Marino-Radin]
maNjiregaN	           as the years go by; year by year [cf. maN, earth;
jire, to
                      go by] [Marino-Radin]
maNgicawaN	           forever, for eternity [cf. maN, time; ca, waN]
                      [Marino-Radin]
maNnegus	             all the years past [narrator of "Worœxega"]
maNnegusdi	           forever (to measure by the earth) [narrator of "Ghost
                      Dance"]
maNnegusji	           forever, always [cf. maN, time] [Marino-Radin]
maNni	                winter [cf. ni, agentive nominalizer ?] [Marino-Radin]
mani	                 winter [Gatschet, Dorsey]
mani hinz^i huwire	   the last year [Gatschet]
maNnina (maah-nee-nah)	year, winter.  "This really means 'winters' -- the
                       Winnebago count years by winters." [George]
manit'e	              this winter [Dorsey]
manine 	              this winter [James StCyr]
manine	               last winter [Gatschet]
maninga	              in winter [Aleck Lonetree]
maNniniz^aN          	a year [George]
maNs'ireja	           long years ago [Rufus Tiver]
MaN canaha raniz^e?	  How old are you? [Gatschet]
mokahi	               a number of years [cf. kahi ?] [Marino-Radin]
maNci	                to winter [cf. maN, time; ci, lodge][Marino-Radin]
marace	               to plan [cf. maN, earth, time][Marino-Radin]

maNna                 the ground [Dorsey]
maNra (maun-dah)	     ground [George]
ma	                   earth, ground [Gatschet]
ma	                   lands, country [Gatschet]
maN	                  earth [Gatschet, Dorsey-Longtail, Marino-Radin]
maN	                  ground [Gatschet]
maNna	                the land [narrator of "Worœxega"]
mo	                   earth, time (an older form of maN) [Marino-Radin]
MaN'u«na	             Earthmaker, the Creator [Dorsey]

The narrator of "Ghost Dance" gives the gloss for maNnegusdi as "(to measure
by
the earth)," but that, I think, is just folk etymology. I find it odd that
Marino suggests that the root of maNjiregaN, "as the years go by,"	is maN,
"earth."

maN also means, "a spring, shell, nest, arrow, wind, to strike." Some of
these
homonyms give rise to mythological symbolism (arrow for time, perhaps).


From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu  Tue Mar 20 17:20:31 2001
From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:20:31 -0600
Subject: Back to the Platte
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAR.2001.112031.0600.>

I enjoyed your poetic description of Nebraska this time of year.  Here in north central Oklahoma, the green grass and winter wheat is starting to show, and people around here are planting potatoes and frying up wild onions.  The shinny games will start soon--in April--giving people the chance to get outside and run around after the winter.

I'm not saying much linguistic, except that I did find out from Henry Lieb the meaning of the third Ponca term in the minimal triplet for vowel length and stress that I wrote about in a previous message:  s^ee'dhaN (shee'thaN) 'the (round, inanimate) apple'; s^e'dhaN (she'thaN) 'that (round, inamimate object)'; and s^edhaN' (shethaN') 'broken.'

Kathy
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Mark Awakuni-Swetland 
  To: Siouan 
  Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 7:03 AM
  Subject: Back to the Platte


  19 March 2001
  From the earlier discussion about the term Nibthaska and its reference to "shallowness?"
   
  In the preface to La Flesche's "The Middle Five," he notes that..."Most of the country now known as the State of Nebraska (the Omaha name of the river Plattt, descriptive of its shallowness, width, and low banks)..." (1963:xix).
   
  The geese are coming back, so the warm weather will soon be here to stay.
   
  Aloha,
  uthixide
   

  Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Lecturer
  Anthropology/Ethnic Studies
  c/o Department of Anthropology-Geography
  University of Nebraska
  Bessey Hall 132
  Lincoln, NE 68588-0368
  Office 402-472-3455
  Dept. 402-472-2411
  FAX 402-472-9642
  mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu
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From Rgraczyk at aol.com  Tue Mar 20 17:17:33 2001
From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 12:17:33 EST
Subject: Year, Earth
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAR.2001.121733.EST.>

In Crow and Hidatsa we have awa' 'earth, land'.  Also, in Hidatsa 'awa 'year'
and in Crow awa' 'season'.  I always assumed these were homonymns, but maybe
not!

Randy
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From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Mar 20 17:12:41 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:12:41 -0600
Subject: a phonetic mystery
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAR.2001.111241.0600.>

> I would like confirmation of the following from others who
listen to Lakhota, but I hear a contrast between mni 'water', with an oral
vowel, and mniN kte 'I will go' with a nasal "i".  If that's the case, isn't
there a problem with deriving the m-n of 'water' from *w-r+nasal?  I
still think we have been far too sloppy in our listening to Lak. vowels
after nasal consonants, but it would take a dedicated study to straighten it
out, preferably one that uses instrumental phonetics and a variety of
speakers from different places and age groups.  Until we do this,
however, I think all our *w & *r reconstructions are suspect.

While I agree that most of us have been remiss in not distinguishing nasal
from non-nasal vowels after nasal consonants (the problem isn't limited to
Dakotan!), I think the degree of nasalization in 'water' and 'I will go' is
a simple matter of relative chronology.

'Water' had a nasal V in the proto language as shown by the cognate set, all
members of which but Ofo show consistent [n]'s. The vowel itself may have
denasalized fairly early.

Nasalization in 'I will go', on the other hand, is very recent, as shown by
the fact that only in Dakotan do we find reflexes of nasalization in this
sequence at all. This presumably stems from the fact that the 'irrealis'
mode (=future "tense") marker is/was bimorphemic in the form taken by
Dakotan. It had nasalization associated with the morph preceding ktA. If I
recall correctly, Winnebago or Chiwere preserves the [iN]. This would have
to have developed after the split-off of Dhegiha since only the *-kte >
tte/a is preserved there. It goes back to a verb that meant 'want'
apparently, considering the Crow/Hidatsa/Mandan/Biloxi cognates, but the
nasal element is separate and doesn't show up in those languages either.  I
think John has come up with Omaha cognates for the -iN- as a separate
morpheme.

So the "old" nasal vowels apparently denasalize after m/n while the newer
ones came along afterward and don't.

That doesn't mean that all the developments in the *w-r sequences are clear
and obvious however! Far from it.

Bob


From munro at ucla.edu  Tue Mar 20 18:48:14 2001
From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 10:48:14 -0800
Subject: a phonetic mystery
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAR.2001.104814.0800.>

I can't speak to the historical issue here, but I think there is a good
reason why we might hear a difference between mní 'water' and mnínkte
(as I would write it) 'I will go'. The vowel after the mn in 'water'
seems to me to be a derived nasal vowel that acquires its nasality from
the preceding nasal consonant, while the vowel after the mn in 'I will
go' is an underlyingly nasal vowel (the future of every ablaut verb ends
in -inkta/e, regardless of what consonant precedes). In fact, it's this
underlying nasality that causes the expected bl- of 'I will go' to
become mn- (which doesn't seem to happen for the relatively younger
speaker I'm currently working with, which is why I don't have any clear
intuition for David's particular perception question).

I know that in Assiniboine and elsewhere there's suppposed to be a
contrast between oral and nasal vowels after nasal consonants in
underived environments (which the above isn't); I personally haven't
observed this in Lakhota (and nor, I believe, did anyone in the field
methods class that I taught two years ago, which included many
phoneticians far more instrumentally sophisticated than I am).

I hope this naive observation is helpful. I'm just a lurking groupie.

Pam Munro



ROOD DAVID S wrote:
>
> Dear Bob and everyone else,
>         I would like confirmation of the following from others who listen
> to Lakhota, but I hear a contrast between mni 'water', with an oral vowel,
> and mniN kte 'I will go' with a nasal "i".  If that's the case, isn't
> there a problem with deriving the m-n of 'water' from *w-r+nasal?  I still
> think we have been far too sloppy in our listening to Lak. vowels after
> nasal consonants, but it would take a dedicated study to straighten it
> out, preferably one that uses instrumental phonetics and a variety of
> speakers from different places and age groups.  Until we do this, however,
> I think all our *w & *r reconstructions are suspect.
>         DAvid
>
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> Campus Box 295
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue Mar 20 18:27:10 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:27:10 -0700
Subject: a phonetic mystery
In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A4413E9@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAR.2001.112710.0700.>

On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote:

Referring to the iN grade of ablaut in Lakota with ktA 'future/irrealis':

> I think John has come up with Omaha cognates for the -iN- as a
> separate morpheme.

My candidate is the -iN- that appears in the modal form =iN=the ~ e=iN=the
'perhaps', where the =the is one of the articles in an evidential
capacity.  It's just a little lost iN, one of two.

The other little lost iN, probably not relevant here, occurs after
maNs^tiNge 'rabbit' sometimes when it's in the sense 'the Rabbit'.  I've
seen a similar iN after gdhoN 'thunder' in the LaFlesche Osage Dictionary
and I wonder if this might not be some sort of honorific, akin to what
looks like a similar use of ga in Winnebago.  Whatever it is, it doesn't
seem very productive.

JEK


From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Mar 20 22:28:14 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 16:28:14 -0600
Subject: a phonetic mystery
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAR.2001.162814.0600.>

>From: Pamela Munro
>I can't speak to the historical issue here, but I think there is a good
>reason why we might hear a difference between mní 'water' and mnínkte
>(as I would write it) 'I will go'. The vowel after the mn in 'water'
>seems to me to be a derived nasal vowel that acquires its nasality from
>the preceding nasal consonant, while the vowel after the mn in 'I will
>go' is an underlyingly nasal vowel (the future of every ablaut verb ends
>in -inkta/e, regardless of what consonant precedes). In fact, it's this
>underlying nasality that causes the expected bl- of 'I will go' to
>become mn- ...

It is often said (e.g. Fox's recent book on linguistic reconstruction) that
the methodologies of (internal) reconstruction and synchronic phonology are
identical and (by others) that the rules of synchronic phonology
recapitulate the historical processes that led to the present-day system. I
have strongly opposed this in a chapter that will appear in Blackwell's
Handbook of Historical Ling. Pam's examples are a nice case in point.
Historically, it is clearly 'water' that had the underlying nasal vowel, and
its consonants represent secondary nasalization, but synchronically, as both
David and Pam point out, the vowel has lost its underlying nasality. 'Go',
on the other hand, had the oral vowel *e, and it's nasalization is strictly
secondary, from *iN+kte, just as Pam says. The language has simply been
restructured and our synchronic and diachronic methodologies and rules (or
constraints, for those who believe in them) simply yield different results.

Synchronically in Dakotan it is probably no longer possible to associate the
/m/ of m-ni 'water', the /b/ of b-loka 'male' or the /p/ of 'p-te' 'buffalo
cow' with absolutive wa- (or, historically, in the case of these particular
nouns, the animate *wi-). It has been lexicalized, or "phoneticized" as part
of the noun root.

The parallel allomorphs of first singular actor wa-, however, must still be
associated in 1st person actor forms such as m-aNka 'I sit', m-uN 'I do/use'
(I can't recall which of those 2 uses m-), and m-niN- 'I will go-IRR'; b-le
'I go'; p-hu 'I arrive coming', etc. where there is still a clear 1st person
semantic association.

Bob


From munro at ucla.edu  Wed Mar 21 00:23:14 2001
From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 16:23:14 -0800
Subject: a phonetic mystery
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAR.2001.162314.0800.>

After I sent my note I realized I should have added lots of
"synchronically"s (e.g. in "the vowel after the mn in 'water' seems to
me to be SYNCHRONICALLY a derived nasal vowel"). But I know you all got
that. Thanks, Bob.

Pam

('I do'/'I wear' is m-ún; 'I am located' is wa-'ún...)



"Rankin, Robert L" wrote:
>
> >From: Pamela Munro
> >I can't speak to the historical issue here, but I think there is a good
> >reason why we might hear a difference between mní 'water' and mnínkte
> >(as I would write it) 'I will go'. The vowel after the mn in 'water'
> >seems to me to be a derived nasal vowel that acquires its nasality from
> >the preceding nasal consonant, while the vowel after the mn in 'I will
> >go' is an underlyingly nasal vowel (the future of every ablaut verb ends
> >in -inkta/e, regardless of what consonant precedes). In fact, it's this
> >underlying nasality that causes the expected bl- of 'I will go' to
> >become mn- ...
>
> It is often said (e.g. Fox's recent book on linguistic reconstruction) that
> the methodologies of (internal) reconstruction and synchronic phonology are
> identical and (by others) that the rules of synchronic phonology
> recapitulate the historical processes that led to the present-day system. I
> have strongly opposed this in a chapter that will appear in Blackwell's
> Handbook of Historical Ling. Pam's examples are a nice case in point.
> Historically, it is clearly 'water' that had the underlying nasal vowel, and
> its consonants represent secondary nasalization, but synchronically, as both
> David and Pam point out, the vowel has lost its underlying nasality. 'Go',
> on the other hand, had the oral vowel *e, and it's nasalization is strictly
> secondary, from *iN+kte, just as Pam says. The language has simply been
> restructured and our synchronic and diachronic methodologies and rules (or
> constraints, for those who believe in them) simply yield different results.
>
> Synchronically in Dakotan it is probably no longer possible to associate the
> /m/ of m-ni 'water', the /b/ of b-loka 'male' or the /p/ of 'p-te' 'buffalo
> cow' with absolutive wa- (or, historically, in the case of these particular
> nouns, the animate *wi-). It has been lexicalized, or "phoneticized" as part
> of the noun root.
>
> The parallel allomorphs of first singular actor wa-, however, must still be
> associated in 1st person actor forms such as m-aNka 'I sit', m-uN 'I do/use'
> (I can't recall which of those 2 uses m-), and m-niN- 'I will go-IRR'; b-le
> 'I go'; p-hu 'I arrive coming', etc. where there is still a clear 1st person
> semantic association.
>
> Bob


From shanwest at uvic.ca  Wed Mar 21 07:30:11 2001
From: shanwest at uvic.ca (Shannon West)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 23:30:11 -0800
Subject: a phonetic mystery
In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A4413E9@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAR.2001.233011.0800.>

> It had nasalization associated with the morph
> preceding ktA. If I
> recall correctly, Winnebago or Chiwere preserves the [iN].

Okay.  I'm not sure I'm following this, so correct me if I'm off in left
field.  Would this be what is going on in Assiniboine:

wayaga - he sees
wayagiNkta - he will see

yuda - he eats (transitive)
yudiNkta - he will eat

It goes on and on.  A lot of verbs with stress on the first syllable seem to
be suseptible to this A--> iN ablaut (?) when -kta appears.

As for mni 'water', I've got it with both the nasal and non-nasal vowel from
my primary consultant.  I suspect that's my ear though.

Shannon


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Mar 21 08:32:27 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 01:32:27 -0700
Subject: a phonetic mystery
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0103200829220.17405-100000@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.013227.0700.>

On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, ROOD DAVID S wrote:
> 	I would like confirmation of the following from others who listen
> to Lakhota, but I hear a contrast between mni 'water', with an oral vowel,
> and mniN kte 'I will go' with a nasal "i".  If that's the case, isn't
> there a problem with deriving the m-n of 'water' from *w-r+nasal?  I still
> think we have been far too sloppy in our listening to Lak. vowels after
> nasal consonants, but it would take a dedicated study to straighten it
> out, preferably one that uses instrumental phonetics and a variety of
> speakers from different places and age groups.  Until we do this, however,
> I think all our *w & *r reconstructions are suspect.

I agree that the resconstructions of the sonorants oral and/or nasal could
use some work.  I was spouting current wisdom without including any
caveats.  I am puzzled by a number of cases where nasalization doesn't
occur or does occur.

I wonder, however, here if the issue isn't where the nasality comes from.
The impression I've always gotten from you is that there isn't much
perceptible nasality in vowels following nasal sonorants in Lakota.  I
tend to interpret this as a sort of lexical shift of nasality into
sonorants or sonorant clusters where this was possible.  (So, OK, where
does that leave wiNyaN et al., neglecting historical explanations!)
Otherwise, nasality resides in the vowel.  But in the future the nasality
is introduced with the enclitic and is lexically still tied to the vowel,
even though it does affect the sonorants of the stem.  I guess this
presumes Bob's view that ablaut involves an enclitic's initial vowel
replacing a base's final vowel, and not a change in the base's final
vowel.  (The issue being what entity owns the vowel.)

If you want another interesting case, consider the fact that in Dhegiha
nasality of the root vowel seems to nasalize the sonorants of nouns, but
not of verbs, e.g., ni(N) 'water', but bdhaN 'have an odor'.  And the
nouns lose the initial labial element, too, for that matter, while verbs
don't.

In fact, looking across Mississippi Valley, either there are effectively
four different environments for "*pr" - noun initial, inflected verb
initial, verb stem initial, medial - or one is driven to dividing the sets
up into *wr, *pr, etc.  No matter which way you slice it, however, you
have to assume a lot of analogical influence.

Sets illustrating the four *pr (or *wr or *war):

gloss     La    OP       Wi

lake      ble   ne       dee
water     mni   ni       nii

A1 + r    bl... bdh...   d...

flat      blas- bdhas-   paras
smell     -mna  (-)bdhaN paNnaN

three     yamni dhabdhiN daaniN

Nasal inflected verbs are somewhat complex cases - we've just seen one,
anyway, so I'll omit them.  'Three' is the only medial instance I know of.

Note that *pr pretty much behaves as *R when it simplifies, which is one
of the arguments, originating with Kaufman I think, for considering *R as
a sort of cluster.

Also, in IO, *pr behaves differently in ran(~)i 'three' and grerabriN
'eight', though I tend suspect this might involve, say, a loan from
Dhegiha.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Mar 21 08:53:26 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 01:53:26 -0700
Subject: a phonetic mystery
In-Reply-To: <003401c0b1d8$c4052e20$6436688e@fsh.uvic.ca>
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.015326.0700.>

On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Shannon West wrote:

> > It had nasalization associated with the morph preceding ktA.
> > If I recall correctly, Winnebago or Chiwere preserves the [iN].
>
> Okay.  I'm not sure I'm following this, so correct me if I'm off in left
> field.  Would this be what is going on in Assiniboine:
>
> wayaga - he sees
> wayagiNkta - he will see
...
Yes.  This is it, precisely.
>
> It goes on and on.  A lot of verbs with stress on the first syllable seem to
> be suseptible to this A--> iN ablaut (?) when -kta appears.

In theory, any verb that has a ~ e (or aN ~ e) [or as some write it A or
AN] should have iN as a third alternant before ktA.  Often, but not
always, A will be unaccented even when it is in the second syllable.  In
fact, unaccented "epenthetic" a in C-final roots is independent of A,
though it's strongly correlated with it.  The best survey of this is Pat
Shaw's dissertation.

The two major analyses are:

wayagA + kta => wayagiN-kta  (or A => iN / __#kta)

or

wayaga + iNkta => wayag-iNkta

As far as I know, only the first of these has ever been seriously
entertained by Dakotanists.

Also, while from a Dakotan perspective it makes sense to see a and aN as
the underlying final vowels, elsewhere in Siouan it's e that is seen as
the underlying vowel.  For one thing, only Dakotan does anything with aN;
for another only Dakotan uses a in what amount to citation forms.  In OP
essentially all e-final stems ablaut.  Most languages follow the Dakotan
pattern in which only some stems with the suitable final vowel ablaut.  I
suspect other Dhegiha languages follow the OP pattern.  I'm not sure about
Chiwere.

JEK


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Wed Mar 21 12:31:10 2001
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:31:10 GMT
Subject: Sleeps and Winters
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0103172328270.29230-100000@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.123110.GMT.>

That's very interesting about  chaN.  I'd always thought it had something to
do with chaN(a)s^na 'as many times as, when, whenever'.  Is the
chaN in chaN (a) s^na also from the 'sleep' word.

Bruce

Date sent:      	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 23:39:22 -0700 (MST)
Send reply to:  	siouan at lists.colorado.edu
From:           	Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
To:             	<siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Subject:        	Sleeps and Winters

  In Dakota Buechel
lists a term c^(h)aN 'night, day [apparently 24 hour day]' always
accompanied by a numeral and also, laconically, wani'yetu 'winter, year'.
The first of these Dakota terms is a regular cognate of OP zhaN 'sleep',
though it is not the regular verb 'to sleep' in Dakota.

JEK

Dr. Bruce Ingham
Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies
SOAS


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Wed Mar 21 12:35:50 2001
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:35:50 GMT
Subject: Sleeps and Winters
In-Reply-To: <3AB4F043.EC18F8B@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.123550.GMT.>

Cree also has the pipoon word for winter and year as you would expect and it is also used for
 telling one's age, though I can't remember how

Bruce
Date sent:      	Sun, 18 Mar 2001 11:28:35 -0600
Send reply to:  	siouan at lists.colorado.edu
From:           	"Alan H. Hartley" <ahartley at d.umn.edu>
To:             	siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject:        	Re: Sleeps and Winters

> Does anyone know anything aobut the distribution in North America of
> the usage 'sleep(s)' in ennumerating days or 'winter(s)' in ennumerating
> years?

Ojibway has pipo:n 'winter, year', e.g. nisso pipo:n 'three years'
[Baraga _Dict. Otchipwe Lang._]

Blackfoot kaanists�sstoyiimihpa 'how old are you?' is literally (as
close as I can tell) 'how many winters have you?' (sstoyii 'be
cold/winter) [Frantz & Russell _Blackfoot Dict._]

I�upiat has ukiuk 'winter, year' [Webster & Zibell _I�upiat Eskimo
Dict._]

Chinook Jargon has cole 'winter, year', from Eng. cold, e.g., ikt cole
'one year' [Thomas _Chinook_].

In Plains sign language, the signs for 'winter' and 'year' are the same
[Clark _Indian Sign Language_].

Creek and Alabama apparently lack both the year=winter and day=sleep
equations. (My cursory look showed no example of the latter in any
language.)

Virginia Algonquian used cohonk (wild goose) as 'year'.

Alan
Dr. Bruce Ingham
Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies
SOAS


From jggoodtracks at juno.com  Wed Mar 21 14:36:18 2001
From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 08:36:18 -0600
Subject: a phonetic mystery
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.083618.0600.>

John:
I believe that there are implications/ applications of this for Jiwere~
Chiwere.  I say this, because on occassions, the elders corrected me on
pronunciations.  Because of lack of a trained linguistic hearing, I never
noted such fine articulations.  Several words that I recall being
corrected on were:
phaa 	~   [paa (~paa'ge)] = nose of human; head of an animal  vs
pha	~   [pa	= bitter]

thaan(~)i ~   [taa'�i  = winter]
than(~)i   ~   [ta'�i   =  soup/ deer meat soup]

I will leave an further discussion of such applications in Ioway-Otoe to
Louanna & Jill if they wish to comment.
Jimm

On Wed, 21 Mar 2001 01:53:26 -0700 (MST) Koontz John E
<John.Koontz at colorado.edu> writes:
> On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Shannon West wrote:
>
> > > It had nasalization associated with the morph preceding ktA.
> > > If I recall correctly, Winnebago or Chiwere preserves the [iN].
> >
> > Okay.  I'm not sure I'm following this, so correct me if I'm off
> in left
> > field.  Would this be what is going on in Assiniboine:
> >
> > wayaga - he sees
> > wayagiNkta - he will see
> ...
> Yes.  This is it, precisely.
> >
> > It goes on and on.  A lot of verbs with stress on the first
> syllable seem to
> > be suseptible to this A--> iN ablaut (?) when -kta appears.
>
> In theory, any verb that has a ~ e (or aN ~ e) [or as some write it
> A or
> AN] should have iN as a third alternant before ktA.  Often, but not
> always, A will be unaccented even when it is in the second syllable.
>  In
> fact, unaccented "epenthetic" a in C-final roots is independent of
> A,
> though it's strongly correlated with it.  The best survey of this is
> Pat
> Shaw's dissertation.
>
> The two major analyses are:
>
> wayagA + kta => wayagiN-kta  (or A => iN / __#kta)
>
> or
>
> wayaga + iNkta => wayag-iNkta
>
> As far as I know, only the first of these has ever been seriously
> entertained by Dakotanists.
>
> Also, while from a Dakotan perspective it makes sense to see a and
> aN as
> the underlying final vowels, elsewhere in Siouan it's e that is seen
> as
> the underlying vowel.  For one thing, only Dakotan does anything
> with aN;
> for another only Dakotan uses a in what amount to citation forms.
> In OP
> essentially all e-final stems ablaut.  Most languages follow the
> Dakotan
> pattern in which only some stems with the suitable final vowel
> ablaut.  I
> suspect other Dhegiha languages follow the OP pattern.  I'm not sure
> about
> Chiwere.
>
> JEK
>


From Zylogy at aol.com  Wed Mar 21 15:59:55 2001
From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:59:55 EST
Subject: reduplication in Siouan languages
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.105955.EST.>

Hi. I'm coauthoring an areal/typological map/description of reduplicative
constructions  and wanted to know if any of you folks might help with Siouan-
I've got IJAL materials on a number of languages, and Boas on Lakhota- is
there any concensus on reconstructability of reduplication for the family?
Any areal patterns after dispersal of the various daughter subgroupings? Any
info would be helpful. Thanks.

Best
Jess Tauber
zylogy at aol.com
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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Mar 21 16:28:14 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 09:28:14 -0700
Subject: reduplication in Siouan languages
In-Reply-To: <37.125a7941.27ea29fb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.092814.0700.>

On Wed, 21 Mar 2001 Zylogy at aol.com wrote:
> Hi. I'm coauthoring an areal/typological map/description of reduplicative
> constructions  and wanted to know if any of you folks might help with Siouan-
> I've got IJAL materials on a number of languages, and Boas on Lakhota- is
> there any concensus on reconstructability of reduplication for the family?
> Any areal patterns after dispersal of the various daughter subgroupings? Any
> info would be helpful. Thanks.

Reduplication occurs pretty much throughout Siouan, but details of form
and use differ from language to language.  For an early survey in passing
for Mississippi Valley, see Boas & Swanton's article on Dakota with notes
on Omaha-Ponca and Winnebago in the old BAE Handbook of North American
Indian Languages.

The standard Dakota treatment of C-final stems is uniquely Dakotan.

I've seen or heard Pat Shaw, I think, discuss an additional pattern in
Stoney or Assiniboine, but I'm not sure at this point what the reference
would be, though, obviously, checking a list of her articles would be a
reasonable thing to do.  (Unfortunately, Pat Shaw is not on this list.)

JEK


From rankin at ku.edu  Wed Mar 21 16:34:09 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:34:09 -0600
Subject: Dakotan futures.
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.103409.0600.>

> wayaga - he sees
> wayagiNkta - he will see
> The best survey of this is Pat Shaw's dissertation.

Pub. by Garland press.

> The two major analyses are:
> 1) wayagA + kta => wayagiN-kta  (or A => iN / __#kta)
> or
> wayaga + iNkta => wayag-iNkta

> As far as I know, only the first of these has ever been seriously
> entertained by Dakotanists.

Although the second is clearly what happened historically, with the
understanding that iN and ktA were separate morphemes, cf. John's Omaha
forms in his posting yesterday. kte is semantically reconstructible as a
verb of 'wanting' and in Omaha iN seems to be a "perhaps-ative". :-)

If anyone is interested, I can "attach" my paper on Dhegihan "Ablaut" in
which I talk about the Dakotan problem quite a bit. It is a MSWord for
Windows file using the SIL SSDoulos font, (font available from John's web
site). Ablaut is a complex question, made complexer by Dakotan phonological
and analogical shifts.

Bob


From rankin at ku.edu  Wed Mar 21 19:36:53 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 13:36:53 -0600
Subject: Omaha, Jiwere long vs. short vowels.
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.133653.0600.>

>I believe that there are implications/ applications of this for Jiwere~
>Chiwere.  I say this, because on occassions, the elders corrected me on
>pronunciations.  Because of lack of a trained linguistic hearing, I
>never noted such fine articulations.  Several words that I recall being
>corrected on were:
>phaa 	~   [paa (~paa'ge)] = nose of human; head of an animal  vs
>pha	~   [pa	= bitter]
>thaan(~)i ~   [taa'ñi  = winter]
>than(~)i   ~   [ta'ñi   =  soup/ deer meat soup]

I completely agree with Jimm. I've heard long vs. short vowels in the
recordings of Franklin Murray, Truman Dailey and Lizzie Harper made by
Vantine and by Jill and Louanna. I remember unaccented long vowels too, as
in [greeraa'briN] 'eight'. As in Omaha, they can alternate in paradigms,
i.e., just because a word has length in one of its allomorphs doesn't mean
it will have length in other, inflected or derived, forms, especially if
accent shifts (see John's paradigms of the past couple of days).

I think a good guide to long vowels in Jiwere might be Miner's Winnebago
Dictionary. Winnebago has added "Dorsey's Law" epenthetic vowels in clusters
with sonorants and has moved accent to the right, but otherwise I bet the
long vowels correspond pretty exactly.

In Omaha a guide might be Frida Hahn's doctoral dissertation, done under
Franz Boas. Hahn was a native speaker of German, a language that has a long
vs. short vowel distinction. Her hearing was no doubt more accurate than
most of ours for that feature.

Bob


From Rgraczyk at aol.com  Wed Mar 21 20:15:04 2001
From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 15:15:04 EST
Subject: Siouan Long Vowls
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.151504.EST.>

In a message dated 3/19/01 5:22:07 PM Mountain Standard Time, rankin at ku.edu
writes:


> If memory serves
> (and Randy can correct me on this) Crow has three degrees of length, tho' I
> don't know how this is resolved phonetically. High, low, rising and falling
> pitch are all distinctive.

As far as I can tell Crow has only two degrees of length.  High and low pitch
vowels may be either long or short; falling pitch vowels are only long.

Randy
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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Mar 21 20:44:54 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 13:44:54 -0700
Subject: Siouan Long Vowls
In-Reply-To: <ac.123ca682.27ea65c8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.134454.0700.>

On Wed, 21 Mar 2001 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote:
> > If memory serves
> > (and Randy can correct me on this) Crow has three degrees of length, tho' I
> > don't know how this is resolved phonetically. High, low, rising and falling
> > pitch are all distinctive.

Atsina has three degrees of length, due, if I recall correctly, to loss of
intervocalic laryngeal consonants in a system which already had two
degrees of length.

> As far as I can tell Crow has only two degrees of length.  High and low pitch
> vowels may be either long or short; falling pitch vowels are only long.
>
> Randy

Are there ever cases of two adjacent identical vowels?

JEK


From munro at ucla.edu  Thu Mar 22 02:41:51 2001
From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:41:51 -0800
Subject: a phonetic mystery
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.184151.0800.>

I do not agree that "there is not much perceptible nasality in vowels
following nasal sonorants in Lakhota". I've only worked with two
speakers (representing two generations; born about early '20s and early
'40s), so maybe they were unusual, but both these ladies quite strongly
nasalize(d) vowels after nasals. E.g. the ma- 'I'/'me'/'my' "patient"
prefix has an overwhelmingly nasal vowel. But perhaps others hear things differently.

Pam

The impression I've always gotten from you is that there isn't much
perceptible nasality in vowels following nasal sonorants in Lakota.  I
tend to interpret this as a sort of lexical shift of nasality into
sonorants or sonorant clusters where this was possible.


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Thu Mar 22 02:46:31 2001
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 20:46:31 -0600
Subject: winter=year
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.204631.0600.>

c1804 P. GRANT Sauteux Indians in L. R. Masson ed. Bourgeois de la
Compagnie du Nord-ouest II. (1890) 351:

"In computing time, they reckon by winters.." [referring to the
Saulteaux, a western Ojibway group]

Alan


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Thu Mar 22 02:50:42 2001
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 20:50:42 -0600
Subject: sleeps=days
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.205042.0600.>

c1804 P. GRANT Sauteux Indians in L. R. Masson ed. Bourgeois de la
Compagnie du Nord-ouest II. (1890) 352

"as they compute their years by winters, so they compute distances by
the number of nights which the traveller has to sleep out in making a
journey. They say, likewise, in speaking of an appointment of time, "you
may expect me back in five nights," but never reckon by the number of
days."

Alan


From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu  Thu Mar 22 10:04:20 2001
From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 04:04:20 -0600
Subject: Omaha-Ponca Long Vowels
Message-ID: <THU.22.MAR.2001.040420.0600.>

Ardis, perhaps Omaha is different from Ponca.  I definitely hear a nasal
vowel in niNiNde 'ripe, done, cooked,' and it's easy (I think, anyway) to
hear a nasal vowel before a stop because of the homo-organic nasal consonant
that occurs epenthetically.  (Compare tade 'wind' and taNde 'ground.')  As
John points out, the initial consonant in the word for 'ripe' was "funny"
*R.  The idea that *R might have been a consonant cluster appeals to me, but
I'm not well-versed enough in Siouan historical linguistics to be able to
say why.  By the way, any of you Dhegihanists, would you say that the word
for 'gravy,' wanide (waniide  --?) in Omaha-Ponca, has the same root as the
word for 'ripe, cooked, done'?  Even if it does, it doesn't have a nasal
vowel in Ponca.

John, you mentioned the word naNzhiN 'hair' in Omaha-Ponca as historically
having an initial "funny" *R.  Did its homonyms naNzhiN 'to stand, standing'
and naNzhiN 'rain' begin with *R, too?

Kathy

----- Original Message -----
From: "Koontz John E" <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: Omaha-Ponca Long Vowels


> On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, ardis eschenberg wrote:
> > Re: Kathy's long vowels:
> > I have gotten niNde for 'butt' and niide for 'ripe,' but I'll try
listening
> > again.  Hmmm...It's hard for me to hear nasalization after a nasal.  For
> > example, with the verb 'to be' bthiN 'I am' sounds very nasal but niN
'you
> > are' sounds just like assimilated nasality.
>
> For what it is worth, niide 'ripe' isn't historically nasal.  It's a
> "funny *R" word, corresponding to Osage cu'ce and Lakota luta 'red'.  I
> think Winnebago has duuc^.  The "funny R" words have a nasal reflex of the
> consonant "funny *R" in OP, but nowhere else.
>
> Note, of course, that what was true historically need not be the case
> today.  There's no reason why this or other n from funny *R words
> shouldn't be nasalized today.  In cases where the n precedes e or u < *o,
> one might not expect this (negi 'mother's brother', neghe 'pot', ne 'lake'
> (said to be Ponca only), nu 'man', 'nu 'potato'), but there are cases of
> *R before i, a, and *u > i, where nasalization could occur.  At the moment
> I'm not recalling the examples (other than 'ripe', of course).  I think
> 'ice' is nughe from *Roogh(e).  One of the various senses of naNzhiN may
> be an a-example - hair'?
>
> What does come to me is that *pr also behaves as *R in nouns in OP, e.g.,
> in nu 'man', and nu 'potato' compare Lakota bloka', blo, and ne 'lake',
> compare Dakota ble.  And the *pr can precede a nasal vowel, as in ni(N?)
> 'fluid, water, major river' compare Dakota mni.
>
> JEK
>
> P.S.  Sorry about typing vowel as vowl in the subject earlier.  See what I
> mean about me and vowel length?
>


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Mar 22 15:32:13 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 09:32:13 -0600
Subject: Siouan Long Vowls
Message-ID: <THU.22.MAR.2001.093213.0600.>

> As far as I can tell Crow has only two degrees of length.  High and
low pitch vowels may be either long or short; falling pitch vowels are only
long.

>Are there ever cases of two adjacent identical vowels?

The cases I was thinking about were those in which a morpheme begins or ends
with a long vowel and the adjacent morpheme has the same vowel. This
threesome may just resolve into one long V however. that's pretty common in
languages with length. Contour pitches requiring long vowels (or other heavy
syllables ending in a sonorant) is another common feature.

My limited listening to Chiwere and Dhegiha has some long vowels involving
falling pitch but others having level pitch. We can't assume that the two
are necessarily concommitant.

I guess it's time to encourage some poor soul to do a dissertation on
accent, length and laryngeals alone. :-)

Bob


From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU  Thu Mar 22 15:45:57 2001
From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:45:57 -0700
Subject: a phonetic mystery
In-Reply-To: <3AB9666E.CE92842D@ucla.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.22.MAR.2001.084557.0700.>

This is precisely why I think we've been sloppy about this phenomenon.  I
agree that the vowel in the ma- prefix is strongly nasalized, as is the
prefix in mani 'to walk'. The position of that vowel is also considerably
higher -- more schwah-like -- than the oral equivalent.   But the -na in
wana 'now' is much less obviously nasalized most of the  time, and the
position is low central, more like the stereotyical "a as in  father" than
like a schwah.  Most speakers deny any difference when I ask  them about
it, but their practice belies their intuitions.  Another set  would be the
nasal u in nupa 'two', which is so strongly nasalized that  many people
are tempted to write numpa until we train that out of them, in  contrast
with nuwaN 'to swim' or manu 'to steal', where the "u" is higher, tenser,
backer,  and far  less strongly nasalized, and no one every tries to write
a nasal consonant after the "u".  I don't think anyone has ever
suggested that manupi 'they steal' should be written manumpi.
But I do not  completely trust my own  ears at this point, and I am not
sure how much consistency there is from  speaker to speaker or place to
place, though I am convinced that any given  speaker is quite consistent
about which pronunciation goes with which word.  If there are
contradictory data out there, I'd like to hear about them.

David

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
Campus Box 295
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Pamela Munro wrote:

> I do not agree that "there is not much perceptible nasality in vowels
> following nasal sonorants in Lakhota". I've only worked with two
> speakers (representing two generations; born about early '20s and early
> '40s), so maybe they were unusual, but both these ladies quite strongly
> nasalize(d) vowels after nasals. E.g. the ma- 'I'/'me'/'my' "patient"
> prefix has an overwhelmingly nasal vowel. But perhaps others hear things differently.
>
> Pam
>
> The impression I've always gotten from you is that there isn't much
> perceptible nasality in vowels following nasal sonorants in Lakota.  I
> tend to interpret this as a sort of lexical shift of nasality into
> sonorants or sonorant clusters where this was possible.
>


From munro at ucla.edu  Thu Mar 22 16:14:37 2001
From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:14:37 -0800
Subject: a phonetic mystery
Message-ID: <THU.22.MAR.2001.081437.0800.>

All of David's impressionistic judgments sound correct to me (thus,
John, it's not the case that there's no nasalization after nasals!).
Maybe there is a contrast, as he seems to suggest, but I believe that if
someone was interested in pursuing this exhaustively stress, what
consonant follows, and syllable position within the word the
post-nasal-C vowel would combine to determine which of these variants we
hear. I do not believe there's a phonemic contrast. But if you guys
prove me wrong, great!

Pam

from David:
This is precisely why I think we've been sloppy about this phenomenon.  I
agree that the vowel in the ma- prefix is strongly nasalized, as is the
prefix in mani 'to walk'. The position of that vowel is also considerably
higher -- more schwah-like -- than the oral equivalent.   But the -na in
wana 'now' is much less obviously nasalized most of the  time, and the
position is low central, more like the stereotyical "a as in  father" than
like a schwah.  Most speakers deny any difference when I ask  them about
it, but their practice belies their intuitions.  Another set  would be the
nasal u in nupa 'two', which is so strongly nasalized that  many people
are tempted to write numpa until we train that out of them, in  contrast
with nuwaN 'to swim' or manu 'to steal', where the "u" is higher, tenser,
backer,  and far  less strongly nasalized, and no one every tries to write
a nasal consonant after the "u".  I don't think anyone has ever
suggested that manupi 'they steal' should be written manumpi.
But I do not  completely trust my own  ears at this point, and I am not
sure how much consistency there is from  speaker to speaker or place to
place, though I am convinced that any given  speaker is quite consistent
about which pronunciation goes with which word.  If there are
contradictory data out there, I'd like to hear about them.

David


From munro at ucla.edu  Thu Mar 22 16:21:18 2001
From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:21:18 -0800
Subject: a phonetic mystery
Message-ID: <THU.22.MAR.2001.082118.0800.>

Sorry; what I wrote got garbled. I should have said:

All of David's impressionistic judgments sound correct to me (thus,
John, it's not the case that there's no nasalization after nasals!).
Maybe there is a contrast, as David seems to suggest, but I believe that
if someone was interested in pursuing this exhaustively stress, what
consonant follows the post-nasal-C vowel, and syllable position within
the word would combine to determine which of these variants we
hear. I do not believe there's a phonemic contrast. But if you guys
prove me wrong, great!

ah the joys of cut-and-paste

Pam


From Rgraczyk at aol.com  Thu Mar 22 16:54:15 2001
From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 11:54:15 EST
Subject: Siouan Long Vowls
Message-ID: <THU.22.MAR.2001.115415.EST.>

In a message dated 3/21/01 1:46:34 PM Mountain Standard Time,
John.Koontz at colorado.edu writes:


> > As far as I can tell Crow has only two degrees of length.  High and low
> pitch
> > vowels may be either long or short; falling pitch vowels are only long.
> >
> > Randy
>
> Are there ever cases of two adjacent identical vowels?
>
> JEK
>
>

Yes, you do have cases of adjacent identical vowels.  With prefixes like baa-
'indefinite', the vowels do not merge, but are separated by a slight catch in
the voice, not quite a glottal stop: e.g., baaa'akiia 'vision', or
baaa'pchisuua 'something spread, peanut butter or jam'.

With suffixes, sequences of identical vowels merge into one long vowel: eg,
du'usaa 'lay down' + -ak 'same subject' --> du'usaak.

Randy
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From mosind at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 22 18:17:07 2001
From: mosind at yahoo.com (Wablenica)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 21:17:07 +0300
Subject: Nights and Time
Message-ID: <THU.22.MAR.2001.211707.0300.>

I wonder  what is the etymology of root haN- "night", suffix -haN "time" and
continuative/imperfective enclitic haN~he~hiN in Dakotan. Are these the one
and the same morpheme, do they all originate from haN' "for a tall object to
be located" ?
Examples:
haNhe'pi (L.) / haNye'tu (D.) night
haNcho'kayan - midnight
haNblA' (haNwa'ble)- to fast and dream or attain vision

he'haN, hehaN'l - at that time
hehaN'taNhaN - from that time on; therefore
hetaNhaN - from that place/time

Thank you.
Connie.


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu Mar 22 19:48:54 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 12:48:54 -0700
Subject: a phonetic mystery
In-Reply-To: <3ABA24EC.769FE1AF@ucla.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.22.MAR.2001.124854.0700.>

On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Pamela Munro wrote:
> All of David's impressionistic judgments sound correct to me (thus,
> John, it's not the case that there's no nasalization after nasals!).

I think I should say that probably this is my (incorrectly) simplified
version of something David told me (or a class I was in), and so should
not be flatly attributed to David in the terms I used as I so blythely
did.  Or to put it frankly, I clearly misquoted David on this one.

I remember that Pat Shaw presented a paper at, I think, the second Siouan
& Caddoan Conference which pointed out among other things that there were
a number of cross-dialect correspondences in Dakotan that belied the
simple idea that Santee has d/_V[or] : n/_V[nas], Teton ditto with l vs.
n, and Assiniboine n before both.

I don't recall the details at the moment, though one problematic case is
the diminutive.  I've also noted that some Dakotan dialects nasalize final
i in some enclitics (like =xti(n)) and some don't.  This variability
occurs across Siouan generally, for that matter, when the relevant
morphemes are shared.


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Mar 22 22:04:37 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 16:04:37 -0600
Subject: a phonetic mystery
Message-ID: <THU.22.MAR.2001.160437.0600.>

>I do not believe there's a phonemic contrast. But if you guys
>prove me wrong, great.

David: Didn't you once point out a minimal pair in /gmuka/ vs. /gmuNka/? One
is 'trap' and the other I can't recall.  Or am I just mixed up as usual?

Bob


From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU  Thu Mar 22 22:46:50 2001
From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 15:46:50 -0700
Subject: a phonetic mystery
In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A4413FF@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.22.MAR.2001.154650.0700.>

Yes, Bob, I found several minimal pairs in Eli's speech, but I later found
out that he had learned some of his Lakhota from a Nakoda speaker, and
apparently had an idiosyncratic distribution based on that person's
speech -- e.g. he had two different words for one of the 'cut' verbs,
with slightly different meanings, one with and one without a naslized
vowel -- but everyone else thought they were the same word.  So I'm not
relying on those data any more --  which is why I said we would have to
test several different speakers.
	Some of those data made it into the Sketch in the Handbook, p.
445a: maNka 'I sit' vs. maka 'skunk'; gmuNza 'slimy' vs. gmuza 'closed, as
the fist'; niNyaN 'cause to live' vs. niya 'to breathe'.  But I could
never get anyone except Eli to produce these contrasts.
	I would be interested in the results if anyone else on the list
has a way to check those pairs with a speaker.

	David

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
Campus Box 295
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote:

>
> >I do not believe there's a phonemic contrast. But if you guys
> >prove me wrong, great.
>
> David: Didn't you once point out a minimal pair in /gmuka/ vs. /gmuNka/? One
> is 'trap' and the other I can't recall.  Or am I just mixed up as usual?
>
> Bob
>


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Mar 23 00:36:35 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 17:36:35 -0700
Subject: Nights and Time
In-Reply-To: <004b01c0b2fc$832ad920$b663bcd4@wablenica>
Message-ID: <THU.22.MAR.2001.173635.0700.>

On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Wablenica wrote:

> I wonder  what is the etymology of root haN- "night", suffix -haN "time" and
> continuative/imperfective enclitic haN~he~hiN in Dakotan. Are these the one
> and the same morpheme, do they all originate from haN' "for a tall object to
> be located" ?
> Examples:
> haNhe'pi (L.) / haNye'tu (D.) night
> haNcho'kayan - midnight

I think that the combining stem here is haN- 'night'.  But it looks like
the independent stem is either haNh(A) (as in haNhe=pi), or haNy(A) as in
haNye=tu.  The first alternative looks like an an ablauting epenthetic a
with a C-final stem haNh-. There is a real problem here with =pi, however,
as I think this always conditions the a-grade, right?  This looks a
nominalizing =pi, perhaps, as in thi=pi, but I've never heard that this
behaved any different from the pluralizing =pi.  In fact, I've always
assumed they were the same, though I don't necessarily understand the
connection.  So maybe haNhepi is haN + he + =pi with he being some
morpheme that doesn't ablaut.

For comparison with haNyetu consider on the "extension" wiN- vs. wiNyaN
(with -yA nasalized by iN?), iN- ~ iNyaN, and he- ~ heya.  This sort of
looks like an abluating "epenthetic" a attached to a monosyllable and
separated from it by an epenthetic y.  For the -e=tu part of the second
alternative consider aNpe=tu 'day'.

In OP haN (invariant) is 'night', but there is one old compound
haNhewac^hi 'night dance', that might suggest *haNhe, which is why I
wonder about the haNhepi alternant in Dakotan.  Still the -e=pi in Dakota
is a bit of a problem for this comparison.  Does anyone know of another
-he element in temporal adverbs, etc.?

> haNblA' (haNwa'ble)- to fast and dream or attain vision

This stem presumably incorporates haN- 'night' and occurs pretty
consistantly across at least Mississippi Valley Siouan.

> he'haN, hehaN'l - at that time
> hehaN'taNhaN - from that time on; therefore
> hetaNhaN - from that place/time

In these elements I think =haN is something else; basically a sort of
postposition.  It corresponds to Omaha-Ponca =thaN, which tends to be
associated with extents, e.g., e=di=thaN and e=tta=thaN 'from there' (in
various senses).  The correspondence of OP aspirated t to Da h is regular.
The classic example is OP (a)thi 'arrive here' vs. Da (a)hi 'arrive here'.
Another example is OP (wa)c^hi vs. Da (Santee?) hu, but I can't gloss this
for fear of being banned in Switzerland.

=haNl is from probably from =haN=t(u), a sort of reversal of the *tu=thaN
underlying OP =di=thaN.  =taNhaN might be a direct match for OP =tta=thaN.
The tta is probably from *-k-ta-, as I think I mentioned recently.  So
*-k-ta=thaN => OP =tta=thaN, and just *-ta-thaN => Da -ta-haN with =taNhaN
involving nasalization across h, perhaps.  -haNtahaN looks like a piling
up of =haN + =tahaN.

JEK


From FurbeeL at missouri.edu  Fri Mar 23 16:36:15 2001
From: FurbeeL at missouri.edu (Louanna Furbee)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 10:36:15 -0600
Subject: a phonetic mystery
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0103221534160.6628-100000@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.MAR.2001.103615.0600.>

With respect to Jimm's comment about Chiwere phaa ~   [paa (~paa'ge)]
= nose of human; head of an animal  vs pha~   [pa	= bitter]
and thaan(~)i ~   [taa'ñi  = winter] vs. than(~)i   ~   [ta'ñi   =
soup/ deer meat soup]:  I was admonished by Bob to look out for
length at the start of the field work.  Although I listened long and
hard, heard some differences in vowel length in the course of
interviewing, and discussed candidate pairs often with Jill, Lori,
and Dave, in the end I found no systematic differences.  That is not
to say that the contrasts might not have been there, but it is
possible that we just didn't have the skill to find them, and it is
also possible that the speakers that remained, or their models before
them,  had lost the distinction. There is without a doubt a stress
distinction associated with number of moras in some lexical items (it
is one of the distinguishing features between the two dialects), and
length is probably associated with that stress, but length alone as a
phonemic distinction, I cannot claim for Chiwere.  Length is
sufficiently pervasive in the family that I cannot but think that it
existed in Chiwere, but I can't say with certainty that it existed at
the time that I studied the language.  Louanna
--
Prof. N. Louanna Furbee
Department of Anthropology
107 Swallow Hall
University of Missouri
Columbia, MO  65211 USA
Telephones: 573/882-9408 (office)
	   573/882-4731 (department)
	   573/446-0932 (home)
	   573/884-5450 (fax)
E-mail:  FurbeeL at missouri.edu


From BARudes at aol.com  Fri Mar 23 21:50:04 2001
From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 16:50:04 EST
Subject: reduplication in Siouan languages
Message-ID: <FRI.23.MAR.2001.165004.EST.>

On reduplication, Catawba also exhibits reduplication (but only of verb 
roots).  It is used to express continued or sustained action in space or 
time, as well as intensification and distribution of the action.  Examples 
are: w’aN?hire: ‘one jumps’, waN?w’aN?hire: ‘one hops, one keeps on 
jumping’; bú:?hire: ‘it sparks, flashes, shoots (of a gun)’, bu:?b’u:?nire: 
‘it sparkles’; k’a:?hire: ‘one hits it’, ka:?k’a:?hire: ‘one beats it, one 
strikes it repeatedly’.
 
On the etymology of the root haN- ‘night’, the Catawba word for night 
(w’ic^a:w) is unrelated, but there is a verb h’aNnapire: ‘one passes the 
night, one spends the night’ which probably contains a cognate.
 
On the issue of winter used in counting years, all of the Northern Iroquoian 
languages use the root for winter when stating how many years old someone or 
something is.  In addition, in Tuscarora, the root for winter (Proto-Northern 
Iroquoian *-ohsr-) evolved into the regular word for year, and a new word for 
winter was created.
 
On the subject of the origin of /mn/ clusters, the Catawba cognate to La 
yamni ‘three’ is ná:mina. The /i/ in the word may be epenthetic, since /i/ 
occurs elsewhere in the language to break up consonant clusters. (Catawba 
does not exhibit cognates for lake, water, flat or smell).  The Catawba form 
suggests that, at least in pre-Proto-Siouan, the word had an *mn cluster.
 
Blair 

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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Mar 23 22:46:09 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 15:46:09 -0700
Subject: reduplication in Siouan languages
In-Reply-To: <b6.12fdb825.27ed1f0c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.MAR.2001.154609.0700.>

On Fri, 23 Mar 2001 BARudes at aol.com wrote:

> On reduplication, Catawba also exhibits reduplication (but only of verb
> roots).  It is used to express continued or sustained action in space or
> time, as well as intensification and distribution of the action.  Examples
> are: w’aN?hire: ‘one jumps’, ...

Blair, I just wanted to warn you that in my mailer your Catawba comes out
in a pretty fair approximation of Cree Syllabics, or, possibly, electrical
circuit diagrams.  It's probably best to stick with ASCII or at least
standard fonts in mail to the list.

John Koontz


From BARudes at aol.com  Sat Mar 24 16:23:00 2001
From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 11:23:00 EST
Subject: reduplication in Siouan languages
Message-ID: <SAT.24.MAR.2001.112300.EST.>

The funny looking characters actually represent an apostrophe.  My keyboard
is set for English International, rather than English U.S.  I keep forgetting
that AOL does weird things to the apostrophe.  I will try to remember to
switch keyboards for email.

Blair
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From Zylogy at aol.com  Sat Mar 24 17:26:18 2001
From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 12:26:18 EST
Subject: reduplication in Siouan languages
Message-ID: <SAT.24.MAR.2001.122618.EST.>

Thanks all for the (still incoming) responses, both on- and off-line.  Does
anyone know comparable information for Caddoan langs? Iroquoian? Making no
covert claims of relationship here other than possibly areal. Will post a
summary when enough information is in.

Sincerely,
Jess Tauber
zylogy at aol.com
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From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Mar 25 15:30:57 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 09:30:57 -0600
Subject: Funny looking characters.
Message-ID: <SUN.25.MAR.2001.093057.0600.>

-----Original Message-----
From: BARudes at aol.com
>The funny looking characters actually represent an apostrophe.  My
>keyboard is set for English International, rather than English U.S.  I
>keep forgetting that AOL does weird things to the apostrophe.  I will try
>to remember to switch keyboards for email.

I have a naive question for John and other computer whizzes. If each of us
on the list set our email programs to use a particular font (say, Siouan
SILDoulos or Iroquoian-ABC or whatever we chose as a group), would it enable
each of us to use "real" nasal vowels, accented chanacters, sibilants with
haceks, etc. in our postings to the list, or does this depend on servers,
ISP's, etc.?

Most of us use email programs that allow us to set the default font for
receiving and sending mail. Maybe it would be possible to do away with "net
Siouan".

Bob


From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Mar 25 16:07:35 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 10:07:35 -0600
Subject: Ablaut paper.
Message-ID: <SUN.25.MAR.2001.100735.0600.>

To those who asked for a copy of the (Mississippi Valley Siouan) Ablaut
paper from the Albuquerque Siouan/Caddoan conference: I discovered after
volunteering it that it is in an old Word Star (MSDOS) file rather than a
Word-for-Windows file. Converting it to the 21st century will take some
time, and in the meantime I'll just mail out hard copies of it.

Bob


From BARudes at aol.com  Sun Mar 25 16:53:10 2001
From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 11:53:10 EST
Subject: reduplication in Siouan languages
Message-ID: <SUN.25.MAR.2001.115310.EST.>

I do not know about the Caddoan languages, but the Iroquoian languages make
no use of reduplication whatsoever.

Blair
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From Zylogy at aol.com  Sun Mar 25 17:44:11 2001
From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 12:44:11 EST
Subject: reduplication in Siouan languages
Message-ID: <SUN.25.MAR.2001.124411.EST.>

That Iroquoian makes no grammatical use of reduplication seemed evident from
the grammars and dictionaries I've seen. I also didn't get the impression,
from Mithun's article on Iroquoian expressives, that these undergo
reduplication either, merely simple full-stress repetition (which seems to be
rather common in polysynthetic languages when they have any expressive forms
at all outside the verb inventory).

As there appears to be an implicational hierarchy extending from the point of
lexicalization of expressive/ideophonic forms all the way to grammatical
elements with regard to the how's, where's, etc. of reduplication, it will be
interesting to see just how much of this correlates with typological factors
that on the face of it would seem to have no logical connection- I've already
noted a number linking expressives.
Much may fall under the heading of "holistic typology". Over time one would
then expect to see increasing context-sensitivity as reduplicative
constructions themselves become frozen, and attrition works its magic.

Siouan, under this model, would be far along the way of losing both
expressives (as such) and reduplication.

Jess Tauber
zylogy at aol.com
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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Mar 25 22:41:50 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 15:41:50 -0700
Subject: reduplication in Siouan languages
In-Reply-To: <3e.93ded5c.27ee23e4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.25.MAR.2001.154150.0700.>

On Sat, 24 Mar 2001 BARudes at aol.com wrote:

> The funny looking characters actually represent an apostrophe.

OK.  It looks like one gets a sequence of, say, 4 or 5 characters per
apostrophe, depending on the transmission path and viewer.  The sequence
differs depending on whether the apostrophe is opening or closing.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Mar 25 23:11:48 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 16:11:48 -0700
Subject: Improved e-Mail Fonts (was RE: Funny looking characters)
In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A44140B@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.25.MAR.2001.161148.0700.>

On Sun, 25 Mar 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> I have a naive question for John and other computer whizzes. If each of us
> on the list set our email programs to use a particular font (say, Siouan
> SILDoulos or Iroquoian-ABC or whatever we chose as a group), would it enable
> each of us to use "real" nasal vowels, accented chanacters, sibilants with
> haceks, etc. in our postings to the list, or does this depend on servers,
> ISP's, etc.?

In principle yes, but I think most mail is still transferred using SMTP
(Simple Mail Transfer Protocol) programs, and these might allow for
traslation of characters sets (outside the ASCCI range or even the 96
printable characters within ASCII range).  This used to be a standard
difficulty with email.  I'm not sure if it is still true.  I don't hear
people talking about it, so perhaps it isn't.

Whether or not the transfer mechanism is not a problem, there would be a
problem with the viewing tool, the mail program.  I suspect that most
Windows-based mail programs could handle the matter as Bob suggests, but
this would be less feasible with Unix-based mailers, because the fonts in
question are not available in Unix-supported font formats.  There are also
two other environments to consider.  One is the basic telnet window
environment, which, by a perhaps curious odd turn of events, is what I am
using.  The other is that of individuals viewing the archives as Web files
(which works out to be Windows with MSIE and Netscape - not problems) and
Netscape (etc?) under Unix).  I see I have overlooked Mac environments,
but I think, barring the necessrity for translating the TrueType fonts
into Mac format, they are pretty much a case with Windows users in this
respect.

If we assume no transfer protocol problems, then it all turns on whether
we could agree on a font and agree to use systems and mailers that can
handle that font.

I think a certain amount of discussion on the subject might be
appropriate, but if the general trend seems to be to stick with the status
quo, I think we should not overdo it, though obviously this is an issue
that can be raised fairly from time to time.

Incidentally, I had been hoping to be able to distribute the "Standard"
Siouan fonts in a format usable with Web pages soon, but this has had to
be postponed for a while for personal reasons.

JEK


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Sun Mar 25 23:35:05 2001
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 17:35:05 -0600
Subject: Improved e-Mail Fonts
Message-ID: <SUN.25.MAR.2001.173505.0600.>

In the long run, it would be best to use fonts that represent a subset
of Unicode. (In the near term, that'll be difficult.) As a very small
example in HTML, see my mock-up of an entry ASSINIBOINE for the OED:

http://www.d.umn.edu/~ahartley/slips_to_entry.html

One version uses GIF files for phonetic and Greek characters, and the
other is for Unicode-capable browsers and fonts (Netscape 4.73 and 6,
and Arial Unicode MS and Lucida Sans Unicode work well).

Alan


From mosind at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 26 03:24:16 2001
From: mosind at yahoo.com (Wablenica)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 07:24:16 +0400
Subject: Improved e-Mail Fonts
Message-ID: <MON.26.MAR.2001.072416.0400.>

One way out for non-ANSI character could be attaching the Rich Text Format
files that use the Unicode set. The standard Microsoft TrueType fonts for US
version lack most haceks and ogoneks but the Pan-Euro Win9x versions have a
support for them. IE 5 browser claims to install Multilanguage support when
needed; one may also download the fonts for Multilanguage support from the
net.
One of the best free online Unicode TTF fonts I've seen is TITUS Cyberbit
Basic ( http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/unicode/tituut.asp  ) that has
all the Unicode IPA characters, all the non-spacing diacritics, and lots of
"user-defined" combinations (such as nasalized vowels with breves). Plus
full Greek, Hebrew, Devanagari, Arabic and what have you in - Unicode 2.0
standard.

Connie.


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue Mar 27 16:39:09 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 09:39:09 -0700
Subject: reduplication in Siouan languages (fwd)
Message-ID: <TUE.27.MAR.2001.093909.0700.>

Here is a comment from Pat Shaw on Stoney reduplication, posted with her
permission.  I'm not sure if the Garland publication of her dissertation
is still in print, but the dissertation should be available from [the
company formerly known as UMI], and I would hope the book would be widely
available in libraries.  JEK

The original query - available in the archives at

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A1=ind0103&L=siouan#33

was from: Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 1906 06:16:22 -0800
From: Patricia A. Shaw <shawpa at interchange.ubc.ca>
To: Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
Cc: Kathleen Shea <kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: reduplication in Siouan languages

Thanks, Kathy, for having forwarded this to me.

And, Hi John.

The pattern in Stoney is documented in the final chapter of my thesis/book
(1980. Garland Press, NY). To my knowledge, it is unique within in the
Dakota branch, although I would be very interested indeed if anything like
it were to be found elsewhere. First, it applies to the rightmost edge of
the verb domain, including a number (but not all) of the final
suffixes/enclitics in its purview. Other patterns, to my knowledge,
standardly operate on the right Root edge. Also, the semantics of the
Stoney pattern are something that I haven't seen in Dakotan Redup
elsewhere, expressing an 'adversative' meaning, e.g.

Non-reduplicated: he sold my car.
Reduplicated: he went and sold my car on me.

I don't know if it occurs in the more northern Stoney dialects or in any
of the Assiniboine dialects, or not, as I didn't have the opportunity to
work there. Perhaps Ray and Doug checked it out in their survey. Stoney of
course has the familiar plural/iterative/distributive Root-final pattern
as well. My Chapter 6 as a whole deals with comparative aspects of
reduplication in the Lakota, Manitoba Sioux Valley Dakota, and (southern)
Stoney dialects. I hope it will be helpful to you.

I will certainly be interested in the results of your research on this.
Good luck with it.

Best regards,
Pat


Dr. Patricia A. Shaw
Director, First Nations Languages Program
Buchanan E256
Faculty of Arts, UBC
Phone:  (604) 822-2512

Department of Linguistics
Buchanan E270 - 1866 Main Mall, UBC
Vancouver, B.C.  V6T 1Z1
Canada

Phone:  (604) 822-6481
Fax:    (604) 822-9687
e-mail: shawpa at interchange.ubc.ca


From Zylogy at aol.com  Tue Mar 27 18:49:25 2001
From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 13:49:25 EST
Subject: reduplication in Siouan languages (fwd)
Message-ID: <TUE.27.MAR.2001.134925.EST.>

The Stoney pattern, then, is similar in spirit to that of the Northern
Interior Salishan languages, which appear to have switched from an ancestral
root-based pattern to one trailing off to the right flank including suffixed
materials, following shift from original root-stress system. Areally
interesting, if there may have been intervening languages with similar
stories- anyone know of the Algonkian in between? Kutenay doesn't have any
active reduplicative contructions (second hand p.c. from Larry Morgan) as far
as I can tell. Thanks!

Best regards,
Jess Tauber
zylogy at aol.com
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From egooding at iupui.edu  Wed Mar 28 00:02:29 2001
From: egooding at iupui.edu (Erik D. Gooding)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 19:02:29 -0500
Subject: reduplication in Siouan languages (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <15.11c20fb5.27f23ab5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.MAR.2001.190229.0500.>

When I was working on Stoney I met Corrie Erdman who was working at Alexis, one
of the two "northern" dialects of Stoney that were mentioned. Her dissertation
is available via UMI, its called "A Brief Summary of Stoney Grammar and a Study
of the Innovative Stress Patterns--Penultimate, with Secondary Stress in
Alternating Patterns--in Alexis Stoney.

Erik



At 01:49 PM 03/27/2001 -0500, Zylogy at aol.com wrote:
>
> The Stoney pattern, then, is similar in spirit to that of the Northern
> Interior Salishan languages, which appear to have switched from an ancestral
> root-based pattern to one trailing off to the right flank including suffixed
> materials, following shift from original root-stress system. Areally
> interesting, if there may have been intervening languages with similar
> stories- anyone know of the Algonkian in between? Kutenay doesn't have any
> active reduplicative contructions (second hand p.c. from Larry Morgan) as far
>
> as I can tell. Thanks!
>
> Best regards,
> Jess Tauber
> zylogy at aol.com


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Mar 28 07:43:20 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 00:43:20 -0700
Subject: Sleeps and Winters
In-Reply-To: <183A4D11066@soas.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.28.MAR.2001.004320.0700.>

On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Bruce Ingham wrote:
> That's very interesting about  chaN.  I'd always thought it had something to
> do with chaN(a)s^na 'as many times as, when, whenever'.  Is the
> chaN in chaN (a) s^na also from the 'sleep' word.

I looked further, but all that I could find were references in Buechel, p.
115, to c[h]aN ~ c[^h]aN'na ~ c[^h]a'na "They follow tohaNl, etc., and the
dependent part of the sentence.  When the word referring to the indefinite
time [sic], "whenever," it has the coordinate meaning "then"."

I think this has been mangled somehow and is supposed to mean that if
tohaNl has indefinite reference then c^haN has the coordinate sense, i.e.,
"whenever ..., then ..."

And, same page, c[^h]a'na, "when, at such time as.  But the word always
starts the sentence, which may begin [sic] with tuwa, tohaN, tuktel, etc.,
or any word.  The "na" of cana may be left ot, or hehaNl added."

I have no idea what Buechel is saying here.  There is an example, which
doesn't elucidate matters much for me:

Na  haNhepi, c^ha[N]na  hehaNl     inaz^iN yapi
And at night when[ever] there/then they raised him up

The gloss here is my own.  I suppose this is a biblical reference.

For s^na, p. 466, I found "again and again, continually ... c[^h]aN s^na
yaNka Always there, here, now"

This reminds me of the habitual use of Dhegiha s^na (modern OP na), and
seems to refer to the actual cosntruction Bruce is mentioning.

Knowing Bruce, I'm pretty sure he's considered all these examples already,
and, I'd have to say I'm hoping he can elucidate them, as they get into
areas of grammar where I have no knowledge of the Omaha-Ponca equivalents,
if any (???), and Buechel's discussion seems particularly defective.

I think this probably doesn't have to do with c^haN cf. OP z^aN 'sleep',
but it seems interesting none the less.

-------

OK, I think I see why I never noticed this in Omaha-Ponca before.  I think
this is an example from Dorsey:

1890:469.4-5

1 ... 'TE*-MA T''E*WA'/AI* HNAN*DI.
2 ... / THE BUFFALOES / WERE KILLED / WHENEVER. /

1 +'TE'/E*ZE 'PASI* '/A$N MAN*DE'2 KE'2 UBA*XA$N 'KI'2, MAN*DE'2-'KA$N*
 I*'HI$N-HNA$N*I.  ...
2 +BUFFALO-TONGUE / TIP / THE (OB.) / BOW / THE / PUSHED INTO / WHEN, /
 BOW-STRING / THEY USED TO CARRY BY MEANS OF. ....

I make this:

Tte'=     ma          t?e'=wadha=      i=     hnaN=    di
buffaloes the (group) they killed them PLURAL HABITUAL at

ttedhe'ze       ppasi'=dhaN maN'de=khe uba'ghaN=                kki
buffalo tongue  tip    the  bow    the they pushed it into them when/if

maN'dekkaN i'?iN=                 hnaN=    i
bowstring  they carried them with HABITUAL PLURAL

I tend to read this as Dorsey glosses it, with a double 'when':

When(ever) they killed the buffalo, when they thrust the tip of the bow
into the tongues, they would carry them with the bowstring.

[I think this must mean that the unstrung bow is used as an awl to pierce
the tongues and thread the bowstring through?]

Anyway, it could also be glossed:

When(ever) they killed the buffalo, then they thrust the tip of the bow
into the tongues, (and) they would carry them with the bowstring.

It's interesting that this involves the s^na HABITUAL morpheme, in its
somewhat more developed form hnaN.  It eventually becomes naN.  The first
"when' is a locative postposition, while the second, the 'then' is =kki,
which acts to form when and conditional clauses.  I'm rally not used to
thinking of it as 'then'!

I think I'll leave it at that for now!

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Mar 28 08:01:27 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 01:01:27 -0700
Subject: Omaha-Ponca Long Vowels
In-Reply-To: <007b01c0b2b7$77a5fca0$7409ed81@9afl3>
Message-ID: <WED.28.MAR.2001.010127.0700.>

On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Kathleen Shea wrote:
> Ardis, perhaps Omaha is different from Ponca.  I definitely hear a
> nasal vowel in niNiNde 'ripe, done, cooked,' and it's easy (I think,
> anyway) to hear a nasal vowel before a stop because of the
> homo-organic nasal consonant that occurs epenthetically.  ... By the
> way, any of you Dhegihanists, would you say that the word for 'gravy,'
> wanide (waniide --?) in Omaha-Ponca, has the same root as the word for
> 'ripe, cooked, done'?  Even if it does, it doesn't have a nasal vowel
> in Ponca.

I would have said so, but the difference in nasality is an interesting
conundrum.  I do think that there is a tendency of n < *R to nasalize the
following vowel.

> John, you mentioned the word naNzhiN 'hair' in Omaha-Ponca as historically
> having an initial "funny" *R.  Did its homonyms naNzhiN 'to stand, standing'
> and naNzhiN 'rain' begin with *R, too?

I'm not sure about 'hair'.  Osage has nizhu 'hair' (per LaFlesche) and
nizhiu 'rain', both presumably ni[n]z^u, and noNzhiN 'stand', presumably
naNz^iN.  It would seem I was wrong in recalling 'hair' as a funny *R
word.  Ioway-Otoe has nayiN 'stand', and niyu 'rain'.  I don't see a match
for 'hair'.  Dakotan has naz^iN 'stand', and maghaz^u 'to rain', in which
the final -z^u matches the -z^u of Osage and the -yu of IO.  It is OP that
has the irregular developments in ''rain' and 'hair'.  I don't see a match
for 'hair' in Dakotan either.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Mar 28 08:38:25 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 01:38:25 -0700
Subject: More on Long Vowels
In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A4413E2@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.28.MAR.2001.013825.0700.>

On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> > I have the impression
> >that some of these stems have initial stress when the plural/proximate
> >marker is missing, e.g., ga'ghe, daN'be, etc.  But dhathe'?

Catherine:

> I certainly always hear(d) first syllable accent in these.  But then I
> nearly always marked initial accent with the plural/proximate too -- lots of
> ga'gha=i=the etc. in my texts.  As John knows I sometimes hear(d) accent
> on a different syllable than where he marks it, perhaps because I expected
> stress instead of pitch accent...

Bob:

> I do too. But gaaghe always has a long vowel for me (that's in Kaw, of
> course).  It's conjugated ppaaghe, $kaaghe, gaaghabe, oNgaaghabe, with
> accent on the long V throughout. doNbe 'see' also has initial accent
> throughout the 1st, 2nd, 3rd person. I am not so sure about 'chew, eat'. I
> am pretty sure though that it is conjugated bl�che, hn�che, yach�be, but I
> am uncertain of the vowel length here. I think the � is long in the 1st and
> 2nd person forms.

Dorsey has ppa'ghe 'I do', s^ka'ghe 'you do', and ga'ghe 'to make', and,
of course, if there's a prefixed inflectional string, that pulls accent
onto the first syllable in any event (or further forward, depending on the
number of syllables).  And he has lots of ga'gha=ga (male imperative) and
some ga'gha=a (female imperative).  Also once ga'gha=i=ga (male plural
imperative), and once each ga'gha=bi=ama 'they say he made' and
ga'gha=bi=kki 'if he made'. However, he has many instances of
gagha'=bi-ama, gagha'=bi=the, gagha'=bi=egaN, gagha'=i=ga.

I don't know quite what to make of this.  Perhaps he heard
ga<H>gha<L>bi<L>a<L>mA with a fall from ga<H> to gha<L> so that gha<L>
appeared to be the point of stress.  It may even have been louder or at
least more salient in some sense, from the English speaker's point of view
I can't think of a way to interpret this in terms of the influence of
length.

With 'see' it's ttaN'be 'I see', s^taN'be 'you see', daN'be, daN'ba=i 'he
sees'.  He has lots of both daN'ba=bi=ama and daNba'=bi=ama, daN'ba=ga and
daNba'=ga.  What's really interesting is that he has a lot of aN'daNbe 'to
see me' and dhi'daNbe 'to see you' in subordinate positions, and even
aN'daNba=i 'they see me'.  But the "expected" aNdaN'be and dhidaN'be also
occur.

In my own notes I don't seem to have anything useful on interpreting
these.  (Lots of 'see', but that now has an extra syllable, and I elicited
next to no quotatives or subordinate clauses of the right kind.)

WHat I do notice about the stems that have initial stress in the third
person (unprefixed) forms is that they are more or less the cognates of
(or in some other way the behavioral analogs of) Dakotan CVC verb roots.
They differ from roots that have initial stress because of syncopating b-
'I' or s^ 'you' or g- SUUS prefixes, because I think we all hear these as
finally stressed (well, second syllable stressed) in third persons.  For
example, I can't think, of hand, of a dh-stem that behaves like gaghe or
daNbe in terms of stress.  Even examples like dhathe 'eat' that may not be
instrumental stems seem to treat dha as a "light" syllable.

Does anyone hear length in an analog of gaghe' 'to cry'?

This seems to suggest that CVC stems are CVVC stems, at least mostly.

In skimming my fieldnotes I noticed one place where in desperation I had
written ppaa'dhiN for 'Pawnee'.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Mar 28 08:59:18 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 01:59:18 -0700
Subject: Siouan Long Vowls
In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A4413E5@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.28.MAR.2001.015918.0700.>

On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> I think we are ignoring some basic tenets of phonology. It would suffice
> even if all long vowels were traceable to polymorphemic sequences. It isn't
> legitimate to consider the morphological environments in determining what is
> distinctive in the phonology. For example, many instances of 'locative a-
> prefix' are derivational and have little or no semantic content.

But if all long vowels were also accented, whether or not we could discern
that they came about from morphological sequences, we would have to omit
length from the picture, which is the Dakotan situation.  So unless length
is in some degree independent of accent, we are overdifferentiating to
write it, however nicely we can predict the location of accent by assuming
it.

> Looked at across Siouan, it is notable that Crow, Hidatsa and Tutelo and
> Ofo, at opposite geographical ends of the family, had length transcribed in
> the same (i.e., cognate) lexemes as early as the late 19th and early 20th
> century. Miner's Winnebago clearly shows that this persisted into
> Mississippi Valley Siouan.

Awkwardly, if you undo accent shift and Dorsey's Law and certain V1 + V2
=> VV sequences at morpheme boundaries, you have more or less exact
correspondence of accent and length along the lines of Dhegiha, or, to be
precise, along the lines of Ioway-Otoe (cf. Ken Miner's joke that the way
to predict accent in Winnebago was to study IO).  I've spent a lot of time
looking at this in Winnebago and it's pretty much just the accent shift
and Dorsey's law that make accent and length seem so independent in
Winnebago.  That is, they do make them independent, but only secondarily,
since the synchronic accent can end up on, or one or two syllables after,
the long vowel it was once associated with, depending on the structure of
the word.

> These languages have length in both accented and unaccented syllables.

I guess we need a set of standard examples of these, for the individual
languages and diachronically, too, to help us out here.

JEK


From rankin at ku.edu  Wed Mar 28 17:15:53 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:15:53 -0600
Subject: More on Long Vowels
Message-ID: <WED.28.MAR.2001.111553.0600.>

I think this answers my question about fonts as far as our own server here
at KU is concerned. I had originally sent you a message, which you quoted
back, that had real accented vowels in it, and obviously our server choked
on it when you returned it. I "opened" the attachment and it had turned the
accented vowels into geek-o-gibberish. I did manage to read your reply
happily, but my original charx were a mess. I wonder if it would like the
Unicode fonts better.

Bob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Koontz John E [mailto:John.Koontz at colorado.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 2:38 AM
> To: 'siouan at lists.colorado.edu '
> Subject: RE: More on Long Vowels
>
>
> This message uses a character set that is not supported by
> the Internet Service.  To view the original message content,
> open the attached message. If the text doesn't display
> correctly, save the attachment to disk, and then open it
> using a viewer that can display the original character set.
>


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Mar 28 18:04:04 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:04:04 -0700
Subject: More on Long Vowels
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0103280104310.3674-100000@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.28.MAR.2001.110404.0700.>

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Koontz John E wrote:
> However, he has many instances of gagha'=bi-ama, gagha'=bi=the,
> gagha'=bi=egaN, gagha'=i=ga.
>
> I don't know quite what to make of this.  Perhaps he heard
> ga<H>gha<L>bi<L>a<L>mA with a fall from ga<H> to gha<L> so that gha<L>
> appeared to be the point of stress.  It may even have been louder or at
> least more salient in some sense, from the English speaker's point of view
> I can't think of a way to interpret this in terms of the influence of
> length.

OK, I did think of a way.  If the (ablauted) theme (stem-final) vowel -a-
before =bi is long, whether or not the preceding root-internal vowel in
gagh- is long, then that would, I think, make an English speaker perceive
the theme vowel as accented.  But if only the root-internal vowel is long
(or if neither is), then it seems hard to understand why Dorsey marks it
as accented.

So perhaps writing gagha'=bi=ama is consistent with

ga(a)'ghaa=bi=ama

where V' (accenting) marks the last high vowel, and VV marks length.

Adding accents to clarify matters:

> I can't think, off hand, of a dh-stem that behaves like ga'ghe or
> daN'be in terms of stress.  Even examples like dhathe' 'eat' that may
> not be instrumental stems seem to treat dha as a "light" syllable.

I'm trying, I hope correctly, to distinguish the accentual pattern of
CV(V)'CV stems from that of CVCV' stems, even though many of the latter
(e.g., dhVCV' stems) do develop first syllable accent in the first person
and second person due to b- and s^- behaving like syllables for purposes
of accentuation.

    make/do                                 eat

I   ppaa'ghe                                bdha'the
you s^kaa'ghe                               [s^]na'the
he  gaa'ghe ~ gaa'gha[=i]                   dhathe' ~ dhatha'[=i]

JEK


From ird at blueridge.net  Fri Mar 30 16:48:03 2001
From: ird at blueridge.net (ird)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 11:48:03 -0500
Subject: Time Depths and Comparisons
Message-ID: <FRI.30.MAR.2001.114803.0500.IRD@BLUERIDGE.NET>

Has anyone found a good way to handle time in presenting reconstructions along with dated language data, especially across languages?  Dates of transcriptions, accurately interpreted and updated, must reflect language states over a period before and after recording, say two or three generations, maybe 75-100 years.  Sometimes the beginnings of continuing changes have been documented, like */s/ > /h/ observed in IOM by Whitman.  I am also aware that change accelerates during periods of rapid change (e.g., the striking differences betweeen the English in my faqmily Civil War letters and contemporary English in the same locale).

The farther back we go, the harder to date a reconstruction, and if we attempt comparisons among related langues widely separated across space as well, whether in their lexicons or structures, we need to observe the speech communities' changed environments and interactions with neighbors and trading partners, and should date acquisitions of loans if possible.

I'm trying several things in my works-in-progress.  First, I use visual alignment as pioneered by Haas in listing items to be compared, phoneme by phoneme, morpheme by morpheme, but the order of languages, and thus of data cited, is given as a continuum of similarities, which de-emphasizes fixed boundaries for the subgroups we have been calling Mississippi Valley (Winn.-IOM, Dakotan and Dhegihan), Missouri River, and Ohio Valley.  Mandan isn't isolated, and Catawba is right in there, not separated out.  A (genetic) continuum line can also be shown with curves or loops to suggest spatial arrangements, and thus likely closeness among speech communities who were neighbors at different time periods.  I haven't seen how to combine a tree and a continuum.

To attend to time differences in compared forms, I try to fill out an adjacent column for estimated and recorded dates.  This column can be graphed as on a bar chart, turning the language-continuum line on its side and showing higher filled bars for still-current forms, lower ones for obsolete ones, still lower ones for reconstructions theorized as viable over designated prehistoric spans.  This allows presentation showing linguistic similarities along the continuum plus degrees of variations over time.  Discussion explains the evidence and inferences underlying the dating of reconstructions.

Does the Comparative Siouian Dictionary (archived at U. of Colorado I think) handle comparative time depths?  I have mislaid information on how I might access it.  I would appreciate ideas and pointers to published work that deals with changes in (or snapshots of pieces of?) the Siouan languages over a timespan greater than from European contact to the present.

Irene


From rankin at ku.edu  Fri Mar 30 17:17:27 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 11:17:27 -0600
Subject: Siouan Long Vowls
Message-ID: <FRI.30.MAR.2001.111727.0600.>

> > I think we are ignoring some basic tenets of phonology.

Koontz writes:
> But if all long vowels were also accented, whether or not we
> could discern that they came about from morphological sequences, > we
would have to omit length from the picture, which is the
> Dakotan situation.  So unless length is in some degree
> independent of accent, we are overdifferentiating to write it,
> however nicely we can predict the location of accent by assuming
> it.

I disagree. It is only if *ALL* accented vowels were long, and length
occurred *nowhere* else, that we would be entitled to equate the two.
Moreover, it would have to be shown that it was accent that was generating
length and not length that was *attracting* accent! This is not a minor
point: most of the accented long vowels in Mississippi Valley Siouan
languages occur precisely in syllables that are exceptions to the 2nd
syllable accent rule. It seems to me that this is unlikely to be an
accident.

We already have Ponca and Chiwere data in recent postings that show both
long and short accented vowels.

> > These languages have length in both accented and unaccented
> syllables.
>
> I guess we need a set of standard examples of these, for the
> individual languages and diachronically, too, to help us out
> here.

I agree that would certainly be nice, but the first requirement is that we
have to have field workers willing actively to investigate the problem. I
sense a genuine reluctance among Siouanists to bother with this annoying
problem. If we were Algonquianists we'd all be fired. We need to stop
looking for "minimal pairs" and start training ourselves to hear length,
accented and unaccented. Siouan languages aren't minimal pair languages;
it's hard enough to find them even for simple consonant distinctions.

The other attitudinal problem that I worry about is the idea that geminate
vowels are not long vowels. Unless they are invariably rearticulated, that's
just nonsense. Bimorphemic length is just one *source* of long vowels.

And I reiterate -- I started out just as guilty of these attitudes as anyone
else. But the state of many Siouan languages today won't permit us to wait
for a generation of better trained field workers.

Bob


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Mar 30 18:02:51 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 11:02:51 -0700
Subject: Siouan Long Vowls
In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A441434@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.MAR.2001.110251.0700.>

On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> Koontz writes:
> > But if all long vowels were also accented, whether or not we
> > could discern that they came about from morphological sequences, > we
> would have to omit length from the picture, which is the
> > Dakotan situation.  So unless length is in some degree
> > independent of accent, we are overdifferentiating to write it,
> > however nicely we can predict the location of accent by assuming
> > it.
>
> I disagree. It is only if *ALL* accented vowels were long, and length
> occurred *nowhere* else, that we would be entitled to equate the two.

I said what I said poorly.  What Bob is saying is what I was trying to
say.  If accented <=> long, then being able to place all accents on the
second mora wouldn't justify writing length in the prototonic cases.  In
this case secondary length due to accentedness would have obscured
morpheme-sequence-based and/or morpheme-identity-based length. One would
have to assume that all lengthening situations occurred within the first
two syllables, which, up to a point, is not inconsistent with the
situation we face.  (Note:  Of course Bob is also saying that this doesn't
happen, i.e., it is not the case that accented <=> long.)

What I mean by morpheme-sequence-based is cases where two identical vowels
occur across a morpheme boundary, or one vowel assimilates the other in
such a context, creating a VV sequence that is accented even though it
occurs in the first syllable.  Cases like Omaha-Ponca a 'A1' + gase 'cut'
=> a + ase => aa'se 'I cut'.

By morpheme-identity-based length I mean cases like the accented
a-locative in Omaha-Ponca:  aa + gdhiN => aa'gdhiN 'to sit down/on'.
Another potential case might be gaagh- 'make', which yields gaa'ghe when
it occurs with its (obligatory) theme vowel.  From a Dakotanist point of
view this would be a case of morpheme-identity-based accent, and kagh + a
=> ka'gha.

When I ask for examples, what I guess I'm asking for is help with ear
training.  I don't require minimal pairs, of course, since we all know how
difficult these are to provide in Siouan languages.  We're just grateful
for the ones we find.  What I'm looking for is examples of

any CVV'CV vs. any CV'CV

or

any CV'CVV vs. any CV'CV

etc., or even cases where one might expect this without any certainty. I
can deal with a work still in progress answer.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Mar 30 18:16:20 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 11:16:20 -0700
Subject: Time Depths and Comparisons
In-Reply-To: <200103301647.f2UGlHW32626@genesis.blueridge.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.MAR.2001.111620.0700.>

On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, ird wrote:

> Has anyone found a good way to handle time in presenting
> reconstructions along with dated language data, especially across
> languages?  Dates of transcriptions, accurately interpreted and
> updated, must reflect language states over a period before and after
> recording, say two or three generations, maybe 75-100 years.
> Sometimes the beginnings of continuing changes have been documented,
> like */s/ > /h/ observed in IOM by Whitman.  I am also aware that
> change accelerates during periods of rapid change (e.g., the striking
> differences betweeen the English in my faqmily Civil War letters and
> contemporary English in the same locale).

I'm not quite sure I understand the question.  An example of problems
you're facing might help.

Typically, e.g., in the CSD, the database representation is something
like (highly idealized, with partially invented data):

PMV *s^uNk(e) | dog

DA s^uN'ka | s'oN'ka | dog, horse | Foo 1970:198a

OP s^aN'ge | shoN'ge | horse | Bar 1884:101.2

which could be represented alternatively as

PMV-Reconstruction s^uNk(e)
PMV-Gloss dog

DA-Phonemic s^uN'ka
DA-SourceForm s'oN'ka
DA-Gloss dog, horse
DA-Source Foo 1970:198a

OP-Phonemic s^aN'ge
OP-SourceForm shoN'ge
OP-Gloss horse
OP-Source Bar 1884:101.2

This would be rendered in a published dictionary something like

PMV *s^uNk(e) 'dog' DA s^uN'ka "s'oN'ka" 'dog, horse' (Foo 1970:198a); OP
s^aN'ge "shoN'ge" 'horse' (Bar 1884:101.2).

Of course, heavier use of alternate type faces would be made, etc.

In explaining matters putting a few well chosen examples into a table
makes it easier to make a point, but publication of volumes of material
requires the paragraphed format.  In collecting the data you need
something that is convenient for your database system, and for data entry.

JEK


From rankin at ku.edu  Fri Mar 30 18:44:50 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 12:44:50 -0600
Subject: Siouan Long Vowls
Message-ID: <FRI.30.MAR.2001.124450.0600.>

> What Bob is saying is what I was trying to say.

That's what I sorta figured. I had to take the available opportunity to nag
people a little more though. :-)

> If accented <=> long, then being able to place all accents on the second
mora wouldn't justify writing length in the prototonic cases.

Or wouldn't justify writing accent! Take your pick. the question is whether
one of those can occur without the other. I maintain that both can in most
Siouan languages.

> When I ask for examples, what I guess I'm asking for is help
> with ear training.  I don't require minimal pairs, of course,
> since we all know how difficult these are to provide in Siouan
> languages.  We're just grateful
> for the ones we find. What I'm looking for is examples of any
> CVV'CV vs. any CV'CV

Those would be like the ones Jimm and Kathy posted from Chiwere and Ponca
respectively, I guess.

It might be more productive to assemble a list or paradigm of forms with V+V
at morpheme boundaries, both pre- and post-tonic. In some languages like
Dakotan these may collapse to a short version of V2. Or they may remain
long. Or they may remain long but attract accent forward. But it would be
good to have some specific forms to elicit with, say, wa+a, wa+o, wa+i, etc.

Posttonically, it might be instructive to look at Dhegiha imperatives in
-a'. Gaaghe 'make, do' + -a 'imperative' is...what?
gaagha'  or
gagha'   or
gaghaa'
gaaghaa' ???

Or any verb form that ends in a vowel followed by -azhi 'neg', etc.

> any CV'CVV vs. any CV'CV

You might have to go to Crow to find that :-)

Actually, it might be worthwhile looking at postverbal enclitics followed by
the female speech marker, -e, in some Dhegiha langs.

Sorry for the diffuse answer. As you say, it's all work in progress and I
haven't made enough progress to satisfy myself.

Bob


From BARudes at aol.com  Fri Mar 30 19:11:21 2001
From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 14:11:21 EST
Subject: Siouan Long Vowls
Message-ID: <FRI.30.MAR.2001.141121.EST.>

With regard to reconstructing long vowels for Proto-Siouan, it is probably
relevant to note that Catawba has a phonemic contrast between long and short
vowels, but a very different system of accent placement than the two mora
system in Siouan.  In Catawba, accent may fall on either the first or last
syllable of disyllabic words.  On longer words, excluding some
morphologically conditioned exceptions, accent falls on the penultimate
syllable if it is long.  If it is short, accent falls on the antepenultimate
syllable.  (This accent pattern is very much like the one reconstructed for
Proto-Northern Iroquoian).

Blair
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From rankin at ku.edu  Fri Mar 30 19:19:00 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 13:19:00 -0600
Subject: Time Depths and Comparisons
Message-ID: <FRI.30.MAR.2001.131900.0600.>

> Has anyone found a good way to handle time in presenting
> reconstructions along with dated language data, especially
> across languages?

No. :-)

Having said that, I do have a paper in which I attempt to date subgroup
splits in Siouan using the largely-borrowed cultigen terminology (squash,
corn, beans, etc.) in which I display the results in two ways. (1) a
Stammbaum with the nodes labeled and dated (tentatively of course) which
conveys the temporal distinctions and (2) a map (which should be a *series*
of maps) to convey the spatial distinctions that need to be made.

Beyond that, I must say that I've never been happy with all the ink that has
been spilled debating whether the family tree or wave diagrams are "true" --
or, worse, whether one is true and the other isn't. Obviously both are
"true" but neither is complete. It's what happens when we try to collapse a
stack of comparative grammars and a stack of dialect atlases to a single
page. There is no substitute for a discursive treatment.

But, like John, I'm not certain this is the kind of question you're asking
about.

> The farther back we go, the harder to date a reconstruction,
> and if we attempt comparisons among related languages widely
> separated across space as well, whether in their lexicons or
> structures, we need to observe the speech communities'
> changed environments and interactions with neighbors and
> trading partners, and should date acquisitions of loans if
> possible.

Yes. And that's why most comparativists don't have much use for Labovian
dialectology. It isn't because there is any serious disagreement between the
two groups (at least using Labov's '94 book as a benchmark); it's because
it's SO hard to determine precisely those communities, interactions and
environments at any great time depth. Sociolinguistic observations are often
possible at very shallow time depths, but the returns diminish quickly at
any serious time depth. This often just leaves us stuck with
uniformatarianism, sound change regularity and concommitant relative
chronology as tools. Plus whatever shallow archaeological correlations we
can make.

But there wouldn't be any sport to it if it were easy.

>
> I'm trying several things in my works-in-progress.  First, I
> use visual alignment as pioneered by Haas in listing items to
> be compared, phoneme by phoneme, morpheme by morpheme, but
> the order of languages, and thus of data cited, is given as a
> continuum of similarities, which de-emphasizes fixed
> boundaries for the subgroups we have been calling Mississippi
> Valley (Winn.-IOM, Dakotan and Dhegihan), Missouri River, and
> Ohio Valley.  Mandan isn't isolated, and Catawba is right in
> there, not separated out.  A (genetic) continuum line can
> also be shown with curves or loops to suggest spatial
> arrangements, and thus likely closeness among speech
> communities who were neighbors at different time periods.  I
> haven't seen how to combine a tree and a continuum.

Although when divergence begins, there is normally a dialect continuum, and
that continuum may persist for awhile (or in some cases "forever"), my own
experience with Siouan tends to cause me to de-emphasize the continuum. One
can't always do that with language families like Muskogean, northern
Athabaskan or others for a variety of reasons, but a unique combination of
circumstances (e.g. migration into areas of reduced annual rainfall) caused
numerous of the Siouan-speaking tribes to move along major rivers into the
eastern plains virtually forming a Stammbaum on the face of the land. The
analogy isn't perfect, but the subgroups seem very well defined to me
(compared with, say, Germanic or Romance).

> Does the Comparative Siouian Dictionary (archived at U. of
> Colorado I think) handle comparative time depths?

It's pretty primitive. It's presented subgroup by subgroup, those groupings
having been determined in advance and pretty much agreed upon. It hasn't
been generally accessible, but it needs to become so.

Again, I'm not sure this addresses your points.

Bob


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Fri Mar 30 20:28:30 2001
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 14:28:30 -0600
Subject: Time Depths and Comparisons
Message-ID: <FRI.30.MAR.2001.142830.0600.>

> > Does the Comparative Siouian Dictionary (archived at U. of
> > Colorado I think) handle comparative time depths?
>
> It's pretty primitive. It's presented subgroup by subgroup, those groupings
> having been determined in advance and pretty much agreed upon. It hasn't
> been generally accessible, but it needs to become so.

Please!


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sat Mar 31 00:26:33 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 17:26:33 -0700
Subject: Siouan Long Vowls
In-Reply-To: <da.40c8591.27f63459@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.MAR.2001.172633.0700.>

On Fri, 30 Mar 2001 BARudes at aol.com wrote:
> [In Catawba] On longer words, excluding some morphologically
> conditioned exceptions, accent falls on the penultimate syllable if it
> is long.  If it is short, accent falls on the antepenultimate
> syllable.  (This accent pattern is very much like the one
> reconstructed for Proto-Northern Iroquoian).

It sounds more or less like the system for Ancient Greek, too, though
maybe the conditioning factor there was the final syllable.  I have
forgotten.


From ird at blueridge.net  Sat Mar 31 15:07:20 2001
From: ird at blueridge.net (ird)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 10:07:20 -0500
Subject: Time Depths, etc.
Message-ID: <SAT.31.MAR.2001.100720.0500.>

Thanks for all responses, esp. RLR's point-by-point.  Hope the paper on cuiltigens and Siouan splits is in print somewhere!

I missed some nuances of reply.  RLR replied to my query about the CSD with:

>It's pretty primitive. It's presented subgroup by subgroup, those groupings
>having been determined in advance and pretty much agreed upon. It hasn't
>been generally accessible, but it needs to become so.

To which AH replied:

>Please!

What should one out of the loop assume is common knowledge about the CSD or access to it or questions about it??

I *would* like to revist the subgroupings, one reason I'm working with a continuum.  I would hope for credible dating sometime of the divergences of Mandan and Catawba and am interested in when Biloxi went its own way, surely in early OV more closely related to Tutelo than to Ofo. I'll wade in with examples when my papers get unpacked from boxes.  Now am just glad to clarify received opinions and know where not to tread on pain of scorn! :-)

Irene Roach Delpino


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu Mar  1 05:23:04 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:23:04 -0700
Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN
In-Reply-To: <2BD73206AB1@soas.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.28.FEB.2001.222304.0700.>

On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Bruce Ingham wrote:

> re Arapaho, I have also presumed, on no evidence at all, that it is a
>  rendering into English of Mah^piya Tho.  Am I right or is it from
> some other Siouan language.

Crow has Alappaho', but unless this has some obvious interpretation, it
could be a loan, e.g., from English.  Ala- is one of the instrumentals.

JEK


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Thu Mar  1 11:28:32 2001
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:28:32 GMT
Subject: More bears.
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20010228174821.00a86a30@imap1.iupui.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.1.MAR.2001.112832.GMT.>

in Lakota 'whale' is wamnitu presumably 'thing being in water' and
 I think I've seen in for 'hippo' too,  which would make sense.
Incidentally does anyone have an explanation for uNh^ceg^ila or
uNkceg^ila for 'mastodon' or 'prehistoric animal', known through the
skeletons found on the plains.  Unkce looks like the word 'e.cre.
ent' which was quarantined in a recent dialogue g^i 'brown' and la
'diminutive'.  Alltogether highly unpleasant to behold I suppose.  In
one of Buechels texts there is a description of the discovery of one
of these.

Bruce

Date sent:      	Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:49:02 -0500
Send reply to:  	siouan at lists.colorado.edu
From:           	"Erik D. Gooding" <egooding at iupui.edu>
To:             	siouan at lists.colorado.edu, siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject:        	Re: More bears.

I was hoping for someone to say "Oh, my!" from the "lions and tigers, and
bears, oh, my!" of my youth.


At 03:11 PM 02/28/2001 -0600, RLR wrote:
>> What about lions and tigers? (that's me playing the straight man for
>> someone else)
>
>Hmm, good question. All I know is 'elephant' in Kaw, which is wakkaNda
>xoje-ttaNga 'great gray god'.
>
>B.

Dr. Bruce Ingham
Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies
SOAS


From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu  Thu Mar  1 13:18:06 2001
From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark Awakuni-Swetland)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:18:06 -0600
Subject: More bears.
Message-ID: <THU.1.MAR.2001.071806.0600.>

01 March 2001

The Stabler lexicon glosses

lion             wanita waxa        greater animal  (1977:113)

elephant    tibaxiatha            push over house, referring to its strength
(1977:67),
                                                as taken from Fletcher and
La Flesche (1911:103)

giraffe        pasiata wathate    (1977:85)


A couple years ago elders at the UmoNhoN Nation Public Schools had provided
a term for hippo, but I've momentarily misplaced it.

Sorry, no tigers in Omaha country... although niashiNga hiNshkube (hairy
man/bigfoot) has been sited recently.

uthixide

-----Original Message-----
From: Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Date: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: More bears.


>On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, RLR wrote:
>
>> > What about lions and tigers? (that's me playing the straight man for
>> > someone else)
>>
>> Hmm, good question. All I know is 'elephant' in Kaw, which is wakkaNda
>> xoje-ttaNga 'great gray god'.
>
>Omaha has nitta ttaNga 'big beast' for 'lion'.
>
>JEK


From ioway at earthlink.net  Thu Mar  1 15:05:07 2001
From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 08:05:07 -0700
Subject: More bears.
Message-ID: <THU.1.MAR.2001.080507.0700.>

>
>
> Sorry, no tigers in Omaha country... although niashiNga hiNshkube (hairy
> man/bigfoot) has been sited recently.

One thing I am really interested in is some of the cryptozoology of the tribes.

I differentiate legendary animals and spirits from cryptozoology, through the
following criteria:

1. Was the animal thought of as a real PHYSICAL animal? (can be killed, does it
bleed, is similar to other animals)
2. Did people see it recently (not in legendary times) and did it behave like
an animal? (eating, running, having young)

For example, the Ioway had the shunka warak'in (carries off dogs), which was
described as something between a hyena and a wolf. It came into camp at night
and would kill dogs and carry them off to eat. The people finally caught and
killed it, and when it died it screamed like a human being. They used its skin
as an amulet. It was considered to be a real animal. This was also seen in
Idaho, shot and stuffed, and supposedly it still exists in a tiny local museum
there.

I heard the Ponca saw the Pasnute (Hairy-Nose) which conformed to the
description of a mastodon or mammoth.

I don't know if tribes see Bigfoot more as a spirit or as some kind of animal..
I think it is the former.

We had something in our legends that shades between legend and physical
reality.. a story of long-bodied bears.

My Cheyenne Uncle told me that there are still animals "from a long time ago,
different kinds from today" that live in certain hills in Montana.

Does anyone have these kinds of "animals" (not "spirits" that seem to act with
human intelligence, diffuse form, or disappear in front of you)? What kind of
words do they use, descriptive of appearance (hairy nose) or behavior (carries
off dogs)?

--
Lance Michael Foster
Email: ioway at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~ioway
-------------------------
Native Nations Press,
1542 Calle Angelina, Santa Fe, NM 87501
Phone: 505-438-2945
info at nativenations.com
-------------------------
NativeNations.Com - Native Nations Press (http://www.nativenations.com)
Baxoje Ukich'e: The Ioway Nation (http://www.ioway.org)


From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu  Fri Mar  2 14:03:15 2001
From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:03:15 -0600
Subject: Cryptos
Message-ID: <FRI.2.MAR.2001.080315.0600.>

First regarding bears: "We had something in our legends that shades between
legend and physical reality.. a story of long-bodied bears." The Winnebago have
"long-legged bears," which seem to be the ursine counterparts of humanoid
giants.  One gets the feeling that they are thought to be extinct.

This is the criterion that you give for culling out legendary animals:

"1. Was the animal thought of as a real PHYSICAL animal? (can be killed, does it
bleed, is similar to other animals)
2. Did people see it recently (not in legendary times) and did it behave like
an animal? (eating, running, having young)"

The problem is that waterspirits (waktcexi) seem to satisfy these criteria.
Waterspirits inhabited lakes and streams rather like the Loch Ness monster,
which one Winnebago told me was just a waterspirit.  These spirits gave people
the right to cut certain tissues from their body to use as medicine.  There are
artifacts that purport to be these medicinal items.  Their bones are
particularly valuable in this respect.

People have claimed to see them on rare occasions.  There are stories that they
have swallowed cervids whole.  There is another story in which a waterspirit
created a whirlpool that sucked down a Dakota warparty that was pursuing the
Winnebago across a lake, etc.

Interestingly, the same is not true of Thunderbirds, perhaps because they are
thought to present themselves in the guise of humans.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Mar  2 16:09:40 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:09:40 -0700
Subject: Cryptos
In-Reply-To: <iss.4f42.3a9fa823.610a4.1@garnet.tc.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.MAR.2001.090940.0700.>

On Fri, 2 Mar 2001, Richard L. Dieterle wrote:
...
> This is the criterion that you (Lance) give for culling out legendary
> animals:
>
> "1. Was the animal thought of as a real PHYSICAL animal? (can be killed, does it
> bleed, is similar to other animals)
> 2. Did people see it recently (not in legendary times) and did it behave like
> an animal? (eating, running, having young)"
>
> The problem is that waterspirits (waktcexi) seem to satisfy these criteria.
...

Watermonsters have young in Omaha-Ponca mythology, because Haxige killed
the children of the watermonsters to avenge the death of his brother.

But, anyway - *ahem* - to turn the discussion back to *linguistic* matters
the way to tell would seem to be to see if a given creature is covered by
a given superordinate term, e.g., using Omaha-Ponca examples, wanitta,
waz^iNga, wagdhis^ka, maybe we's?a, maybe nikkas^iNga.  If the creature is
also - well, unattested - then it can be crypto-wanitta or whatever as a
matter of attestation.  It would be rather interesting from the standpoint
of anthropological linguistics if a creature could belong to several
different superordinate categories, though perhaps in thinking that I am
out of date.

It is certainly a handicap in this and related conversations in this list
that nobody, as far as I know, has done any modern anthropological
linguistic investigations of any Siouan language, and scarcely even of any
other Plains or Midwestern (let alone Southeastern) language.  If I'm
wrong on that it would be interesting to hear otherwise.  This includes
color terminology, ethnotaxonomy, kinsip systems, the works.

JEK


From Rgraczyk at aol.com  Fri Mar  2 16:31:38 2001
From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:31:38 EST
Subject: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN
Message-ID: <FRI.2.MAR.2001.113138.EST.>

In a message dated 2/28/01 10:24:13 PM Mountain Standard Time,
John.Koontz at colorado.edu writes:


> > re Arapaho, I have also presumed, on no evidence at all, that it is a
> >  rendering into English of Mah^piya Tho.  Am I right or is it from
> > some other Siouan language.
>
> Crow has Alappaho', but unless this has some obvious interpretation, it
> could be a loan, e.g., from English.  Ala- is one of the instrumentals.
>
> JEK
>
>

I think you can make a case that Arapaho is a Crow or Hidatsa word.  The
derivation that is usually given is alappe' 'tattoos' + aho' 'many, much'.

Randy
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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Mar  2 16:38:15 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:38:15 -0700
Subject: Anthropological Linguistics
Message-ID: <FRI.2.MAR.2001.093815.0700.>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:27:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Lance Foster <hengruh at yahoo.com>
To: John.Koontz at colorado.edu
Subject: Re: Cryptos

Hi John

I can't reply to the list from this address
(hengruh at yahoo.com) so maybe you can pass this on for
me.

I have done two such studies, imperfect though they
may be.

One is a section in my thesis on the Ioway sacred
bundles where I compare the taxonomy of the bundle
system given by ethnographers, compared to what the
linguistic taxonomy seems to be.

The second is the ethnozoology of the Ioway-Otoe and
how it relates to Oneota archaeology and Chiwere
linguistic taxonomy. I talk about circumlocution in
there. This one is quite lengthy, maybe 30 pages long.

If you can, please pass this onto the list. Thanks

Lance


From BGalloway at sifc.edu  Sun Mar  4 00:18:57 2001
From: BGalloway at sifc.edu (Galloway, Brent)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 18:18:57 -0600
Subject: More bears.
Message-ID: <SAT.3.MAR.2001.181857.0600.>

Surely, the correspondence in the last two weeks on the Siouan list has set
some kind of a record.  I was gone on a trip for two weeks and came back to
an astonishing 249 e-mails, of which 181 were from the Siouan list between
Feb. 13 and Feb. 27th.  The pace continued on the 28th.  I do want to read
all these but if the pace keeps up my computer space may be exceeded first!
I printed them out so I could delete them and wound up with a book-sized set
of pages.  I know they are archived and I don't need to print them, I just
did it this time to delete them so I could find my other e-mail.  The Siouan
mail I have read of the last 2 weeks are quite interesting.  I hope to get
into the fray a bit soon as I am doing some fieldwork with an Assiniboine
speaker in our field methods class starting next week.
.
	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Koontz John E [SMTP:John.Koontz at colorado.edu]
	Sent:	Wednesday, February 28, 2001 5:36 PM
	To:	siouan at lists.colorado.edu
	Subject:	Re: More bears.

	On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, RLR wrote:

	> > What about lions and tigers? (that's me playing the straight man
for
	> > someone else)
	>
	> Hmm, good question. All I know is 'elephant' in Kaw, which is
wakkaNda
	> xoje-ttaNga 'great gray god'.

	Omaha has nitta ttaNga 'big beast' for 'lion'.

	JEK


From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu  Fri Mar  9 06:34:41 2001
From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 00:34:41 -0600
Subject: Dhegiha Progressive (Re: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN)
Message-ID: <FRI.9.MAR.2001.003441.0600.>

Yes, it definitely needs more investigation.  Thank-you, Carolyn, John, and
Bob, for your comments.

Kathy

----- Original Message -----
From: "RLR" <rankin at lark.cc.ukans.edu>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: Dhegiha Progressive (Re: h- vs. x-aspiration in LDN)


> Well, the progressive business plus it's use with the future, etc. are
> things that Kathy ought to be planning on covering in her dissertation,
> so please feel free to keep on feeding her questions. I certainly didn't
> get a complete picture in my Kaw elicitations back in the '70's.
>
> Bob
>
> > The perception may be sudden, but the difference seems to be that in
these
> > examples the condition of the weather is background to the person being
> > outside and perhaps noticing the weather (the thread of the discourse),
> > whereas in the others it is the main thread of the discourse.  At least
> > that's the way I interpret the contextualization that PW offers.  That
> > analysis is also typical of the opposition between imperfective and
> > perfective in discourse-based analyses of their functions.
> >
> > It would be interesting to know how to say '(In the evening) it got
> > cloudy.' (vs. 'In the evening it was cloudy.') or 'It kept clouding
> > up (and then clearing).' or 'Suddenly it was cloudy (or clouded up).'
> >
> > JEK


From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu  Fri Mar  9 08:18:24 2001
From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 02:18:24 -0600
Subject: More bears.
Message-ID: <FRI.9.MAR.2001.021824.0600.>

It seems that Omaha and Ponca diverge quite often when it comes to recent
vocabulary.  For instance, I noticed the word for "cup" in Ponca, uxpe'
z^i~ga (uxpe' zhiNga), lit. "little dish," is different from the Omaha one,
which I can't remember.  the words for "car," "teacher," "student," and
"school" are all different, too.  Anyway, as far as wild, extinct,
mythological, or foreign animals go, I've elicited some terms (shown here in
parentheses in the accepted practical orthography) from two Ponca elders,
both in their late 80's:

"elephant"        wakka~'da ppasne'de (wakaN'da pasne'de)  --PW says this
was also used for mastadons and mammoths,                             and
means literally "god with a long nose."

                        ttibaxi'adha (tibaxi'atha)  --BL recalls this term
for "elephant," which is like the Omaha.

"lion"                ppa'tta hi~s^kube (pa'ta hiNshkube)  --PW, lit., "in
front he's hairy"; "full beard"

"mountain lion, puma, cougar"        i~gdha~' / i~gdha~'ga (iNgtha' /
iNgthaN'ga)  --PW sometimes adds ma~'tta~na~ha~
(maN'taNnaNhaN) "wild" after this.  He calls a housecat ppu'si (pu'si) but
says that his
grandparents' generation had the terms reversed:  They used ppu'si (pu'si)
or ppu'si
ma~'tta~na~ha~ (pu'si maN'taNnaNhaN) for "mountain lion" and i~gdha~'
(iNgthaN') for
"housecat."  He also says that the older generation considered cats in
general to be
important, sacred.  He says the word for "thunder," i~gdha~' hu'tta~
(iNgthaN' hu'taN) is
connected in meaning and interprets it as literally "cat hollering."

                                                    i~gdha~ga
iNgthaNga)  --BL says this word can be used for all cats, including lions.

"monkey"            is^tti'ni~khe (ishti'niNkHe)  --PW and BL both gave this
term for "monkey," but he's also the "trickster" in
Ponca stories.  PW explained the name by saying that the monkey imitates
human beings, and that the name                             comes from
is^te'ga~dhi~kheega~ (ishte'gaNthiNkHeegaN) "something similar to us (human
beings)," from                             is^te' (ishte') "something
similar," according to PW.

"walrus"                wakka~'dagi (wakaN'dagi)  --PW says that this comes
from wakka~'dagi'dhe (wakaN'dagi'the) "he made
himself as a god."  These water monsters feature in the story, or hi'ga~
(hi'gaN), that PW told me about the                             boy who was
made into a door.  At the time he was telling me the story, he said, "We
just call them                                         'walruses.'"

"bigfoot"                nia's^iga ma~tta~na~ha~ (nia'shiga maNtaNnaNhaN),
lit., "wild man"  --PW

"giraffe," "hippo," "whale," "badger"  --Neither PW or BL could think of
words for these.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Awakuni-Swetland" <mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 7:18 AM
Subject: Re: More bears.


> 01 March 2001
>
> The Stabler lexicon glosses
>
> lion             wanita waxa        greater animal  (1977:113)
>
> elephant    tibaxiatha            push over house, referring to its
strength
> (1977:67),
>                                                 as taken from Fletcher and
> La Flesche (1911:103)
>
> giraffe        pasiata wathate    (1977:85)
>
>
> A couple years ago elders at the UmoNhoN Nation Public Schools had
provided
> a term for hippo, but I've momentarily misplaced it.
>
> Sorry, no tigers in Omaha country... although niashiNga hiNshkube (hairy
> man/bigfoot) has been sited recently.
>
> uthixide
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
> Date: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 5:24 PM
> Subject: Re: More bears.
>
>
> >On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, RLR wrote:
> >
> >> > What about lions and tigers? (that's me playing the straight man for
> >> > someone else)
> >>
> >> Hmm, good question. All I know is 'elephant' in Kaw, which is wakkaNda
> >> xoje-ttaNga 'great gray god'.
> >
> >Omaha has nitta ttaNga 'big beast' for 'lion'.
> >
> >JEK


From are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu  Sat Mar 10 04:34:43 2001
From: are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu (ardis eschenberg)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 23:34:43 -0500
Subject: many things
Message-ID: <FRI.9.MAR.2001.233443.0500.>

Well.  I have just read about 600 emails so I apologize that my responses
are tardy & might relate to some things way back, but ...

re: Kathy Shea's cup in Ponca as uxpe
in UmoNhoN it is 'niudhataN'  'water holder'
uxpe is used for plate or dish

I can't find hippo in my notes, but I know there's a word and it has 'water'
in it.  I'll ask monday

re: Bruce Ingham's comments about plants which use ' resembling X'  for
their name:
    We have this in English sort of: False Unicorn Plant
     I think there also are some plants called 'Mock ___' but an example
evades me.

I haven't heard cloudless; clear 'kedha' is consistently used.

Frog: tebia

A venereal disease I remember that Europeans got after contact with the
Americas is syphilis.  I know it came from meso-America; I am unsure of its
range.

re: Kathy Shea's notes on velar aspiration:
aNphaN 'elk' doesn't seem to have this in UmoNhoN

re: OP notation of long vowels:
at the school, we do note them (esp. when contrastive) ex. xtaathe 'I like',
xtatha 's/he likes'

re: Bears
I remember my Russian roomate in Petersburg telling me something about bears
becoming humans (she was very country and so knew lots of folky stuff).

Another example of truncation:
shoNzhiNga 'young horse' (not shoNge zhiNga)

Ok that's my random notes on the emails.  Sorry it lacks promptness, order.
-Ardis


From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu  Sat Mar 10 12:24:27 2001
From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 06:24:27 -0600
Subject: many things
Message-ID: <SAT.10.MAR.2001.062427.0600.>

Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: many things


> re: Kathy Shea's cup in Ponca as uxpe
> in UmoNhoN it is 'niudhataN'  'water holder'
> uxpe is used for plate or dish

The Poncas use uxpe for "plate, dish," too, but cup is uxpe zhiNga,
literally, "little dish."  It's good to know the Omaha word for "cup."  I
seemed to remember that it had something to do with water.

> Another example of truncation:
> shoNzhiNga 'young horse' (not shoNge zhiNga)
>
> -Ardis
>

I was going to mention this example, but, interestingly, in Ponca it means
"puppy."  Apparently, when the word shoNge shifted in Ponca from the older
meaning of "dog" to the newer one of  "horse" as the main pack animal when
horses were introduced to the plains in the 1500's, there was not a parallel
shift in meaning for the word shoNzhiNga.  But there was in Omaha.

Kathy Shea


From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu  Sat Mar 10 12:28:22 2001
From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 06:28:22 -0600
Subject: many things
Message-ID: <SAT.10.MAR.2001.062822.0600.>

> re: Kathy Shea's notes on velar aspiration:
> aNphaN 'elk' doesn't seem to have this in UmoNhoN
>
> -Ardis
>

I'll have to check that.  I'm probably wrong about that.  I am sure about
the velarized aspiration in the word tHaN "step, stand," though.

Kathy


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Tue Mar 13 14:27:40 2001
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:27:40 GMT
Subject: many things
In-Reply-To: <003501c0a91b$7c5f37c0$e3b678cc@ecj8c>
Message-ID: <TUE.13.MAR.2001.142740.GMT.>

Yes that's a good point about the 'false unicorn plant'  and 'mock' XYZ plants.
Perhaps it's not as unlikely as I had thought.

Bruce
Date sent:      	Fri, 9 Mar 2001 23:34:43 -0500
Send reply to:  	siouan at lists.colorado.edu
From:           	"ardis eschenberg" <are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu>
To:             	<siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Subject:        	Re: many things



re: Bruce Ingham's comments about plants which use ' resembling X'  for
their name:
    We have this in English sort of: False Unicorn Plant
     I think there also are some plants called 'Mock ___' but an example
evades me.

I

Dr. Bruce Ingham
Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies
SOAS


From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu  Tue Mar 13 14:54:05 2001
From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark Awakuni-Swetland)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 08:54:05 -0600
Subject: many things
Message-ID: <TUE.13.MAR.2001.085405.0600.>

13 March 2001

...such as Mock Apple, Mock Orange.

As well as there being easily 30+ plants named "False -- "
Mark Awakuni-Swetland



>Yes that's a good point about the 'false unicorn plant'  and 'mock' XYZ
plants.
>Perhaps it's not as unlikely as I had thought.
>
>Bruce


>re: Bruce Ingham's comments about plants which use ' resembling X'  for
>their name:
>    We have this in English sort of: False Unicorn Plant
>     I think there also are some plants called 'Mock ___' but an example
>evades me.
>
>I
>
>Dr. Bruce Ingham
>Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies
>SOAS


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue Mar 13 20:18:22 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 13:18:22 -0700
Subject: many things (fwd)
Message-ID: <TUE.13.MAR.2001.131822.0700.>

On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Bruce Ingham wrote:
> Yes that's a good point about the 'false unicorn plant' and 'mock' XYZ
> plants.  Perhaps it's not as unlikely as I had thought.

Other examples would include technical names in -oid- or pseudo-.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Mar 18 06:28:16 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 23:28:16 -0700
Subject: Thousand
Message-ID: <SAT.17.MAR.2001.232816.0700.>

I'm sorry - I'm afraid it's more etymology.

It's generally reported that Omaha-Ponca kkuge 'box, thousand', derives
from the practice of delivering treaty payments in boxes of a thousand
dollars coins.  I don't actually know what the source is on that anymore,
but I know I've see in several places, probably secondary sources.  I see
that Ioway-Otoe has a similar usage involving a term khoge.

On the other hand, I notice that Dakota has khokta' and khokto'pawiNghe
'thousand', where opawiNghe is 'hundred'.  Also, Dakota has kho'kta
(different stress) 'also, besides'. This appears to be a derivative of
kho' 'and, too, also'.  I think that the pattern must involve the -k-ta
variants of the -ta postposition, as in e-k-ta.  (Incidentally, I think
that this -k-ta accounts for Dhegiha, e.g., OP -tta 'to(ward)' < *-k-ta.)

The box term is khoka' 'keg, barrel', which is a regular match for kkuge,
etc.

I got to wondering if perhaps the actual basis of the thousand term might
be some sort of reanalysis of the 'more, besides' term or something like
it.  I suppose that there might be some historical attestation of the
development of the 'thousand' term.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Mar 18 06:39:22 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 23:39:22 -0700
Subject: Sleeps and Winters
Message-ID: <SAT.17.MAR.2001.233922.0700.>

And more etymology, or, at least, vocabulary.

Does anyone know anything aobut the distribution in North America of
the usage 'sleep(s)' in ennumerating days or 'winter(s)' in ennumerating
years?  Are there any similar patterns I'm overlooking?

I suppose, perhaps falsely, that this is faily widespread in the Siouan
family.  I believe it's the case in Omaha-Ponca (or was), using zhaN '
'sleep' and both ma'dhe 'winter' and usniN' 'cold'.  In Dakota Buechel
lists a term c^(h)aN 'night, day [apparently 24 hour day]' always
accompanied by a numeral and also, laconically, wani'yetu 'winter, year'.
The first of these Dakota terms is a regular cognate of OP zhaN 'sleep',
though it is not the regular verb 'to sleep' in Dakota.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Mar 18 07:06:31 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 00:06:31 -0700
Subject: Omaha-Ponca Long Vowls
Message-ID: <SUN.18.MAR.2001.000631.0700.>

Ardis mentions:
> at the school, we do note them (esp. when contrastive) ex. xtaathe 'I
> like', xtatha 's/he likes'

Sadly, I am perhaps the last person one should discuss OP long vowels
with.  However, I did notice examples like this involving a first person.
Examples like this are, of course, polymorphemic, and, moreover, in my
experience, have decided falling pitch patterns on them that contast
nicely with the pattern on the coresponding third person.

You get this pattern with a causative like xta=dhe:

3rd person xta*=dha(=i)  'like, love'
1st peson  xta*=adhe

Or with the ma= instrumental:

3rd ma*=sa(=i)  'cut (sever with blade)'
1st ma*=ase

Or with the a-locative:

3rd a*gdhiN(=i)   'sit on/down'
1st a*agdhiN

I've used * to mark the place at which the pitch seemed to me to fall.
THat is V1*V2 has V1 high(er) and V2 low(er).  I would normally just write
an accent mark over the V1.

You get the same pattern with the mu= instrumental, too:

3rd mu*=sa(=i)    'sever with a shot'
1st mu*=ase

In fact, the latter sounded to me like [mw*=aase].

Similarly with we'ahide 'far' and similar examples, which I heard as
[we*aahide].

I wonder if the tendency in at least the recording of Omaha-Ponca to find
CV=V'... where CV'=V would be expected might have something to do with
this last transformation, in which it looks like CV1'V2 is transformed to
CV1*V2V2.  The length is perhaps perceived as accent, while the stranded
pitch fall after V1 is not noticed.

The two remarks that round this out are:


1) in monosyllables and second-syllable accented dissylables I noticed a
distinct falling pitch on the (single) vowel in question, e.g.,

he' [he*e]
naNba' [naNba*a]

2) accented vowels do normally sound somewhat longer to me, so that in the
examples above of 3rd vs. 1st contrasts I wouldn't care to say that the
vowel in the third person cases sounded noticeably shorter to me.  But it
certainly lacked the falling contour.

JEK


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Sun Mar 18 17:28:35 2001
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 11:28:35 -0600
Subject: Sleeps and Winters
Message-ID: <SUN.18.MAR.2001.112835.0600.>

> Does anyone know anything aobut the distribution in North America of
> the usage 'sleep(s)' in ennumerating days or 'winter(s)' in ennumerating
> years?

Ojibway has pipo:n 'winter, year', e.g. nisso pipo:n 'three years'
[Baraga _Dict. Otchipwe Lang._]

Blackfoot kaanists?sstoyiimihpa 'how old are you?' is literally (as
close as I can tell) 'how many winters have you?' (sstoyii 'be
cold/winter) [Frantz & Russell _Blackfoot Dict._]

I?upiat has ukiuk 'winter, year' [Webster & Zibell _I?upiat Eskimo
Dict._]

Chinook Jargon has cole 'winter, year', from Eng. cold, e.g., ikt cole
'one year' [Thomas _Chinook_].

In Plains sign language, the signs for 'winter' and 'year' are the same
[Clark _Indian Sign Language_].

Creek and Alabama apparently lack both the year=winter and day=sleep
equations. (My cursory look showed no example of the latter in any
language.)

Virginia Algonquian used cohonk (wild goose) as 'year'.

Alan


From are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu  Sun Mar 18 19:15:28 2001
From: are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu (ardis eschenberg)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 14:15:28 -0500
Subject: Omaha-Ponca Long Vowls
Message-ID: <SUN.18.MAR.2001.141528.0500.>

In regard to John's:
> 2) accented vowels do normally sound somewhat longer to me, so that in the
> examples above of 3rd vs. 1st contrasts I wouldn't care to say that the
> vowel in the third person cases sounded noticeably shorter to me.  But it
> certainly lacked the falling contour.

The first person cases are MARKEDLY longer.  This is not simply stress.  And
I do agree that a type of pitch contour seems to be associated.
BTW:
the 1pl also is long with 'like'  xtoNoNtha

 I've been trying to think of non-verb long vowels, which would thus not
necesarily be polymorphemic.  The other day in class we got
moNhi khe paai.    'The knife is sharp.'

where the word for sharp was long and not just stressed.  Note that it was
translated as singular and not plural so I don't think it's some kind of
reduplication.  I have an idea of how to get this in contrast...I'll try it
this week.

-Ardis


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Mar 19 00:18:50 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 17:18:50 -0700
Subject: Sleeps and Winters (fwd)
Message-ID: <SUN.18.MAR.2001.171850.0700.>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 10:36:25 -0600
From: "Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu>
To: 'Koontz John E ' <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
Subject: RE: Sleeps and Winters


> laconically, wani'yetu 'winter, year'.

The Kaws seem to have used omoNyiNkka for 'year' in the Dorsey texts, but it
is also used for 'season'.

Koontz adds:

In OP umaN'[dh]iNkka, 'season, year', also sometimes used in counting
ages.  And I've always noticed maN[dh]iN'kka 'earth, soil'.

(Bob asked me to post this for him as his university email address has
unexpectedly changed, cutting him off temporarily from posting access.
JEK)


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Mar 19 00:22:07 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 17:22:07 -0700
Subject: Thousand (fwd)
Message-ID: <SUN.18.MAR.2001.172207.0700.>

Anohter post for RLR:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 10:40:46 -0600
From: "Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu>
To: 'Koontz John E ' <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
Subject: RE: Thousand


> It's generally reported that Omaha-Ponca kkuge 'box, thousand', derives
> from the practice of delivering treaty payments in boxes of a thousand
> dollar coins.  I don't actually know what the source is on that
> anymore,

I believe Mrs. Rowe was the first to mention this to me. But I'm no longer
certain.

The (Dakota) box term is khoka' 'keg, barrel', which is a regular match for
kkuge, etc.

I've always assumed this was ultimately derived from the verb 'to make a
hollow sound'.  As probably is 'gourd'.    bob


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Mar 19 00:55:14 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 17:55:14 -0700
Subject: Omaha-Ponca Long Vowls
In-Reply-To: <001e01c0afdf$d2e402e0$dab678cc@ecj8c>
Message-ID: <SUN.18.MAR.2001.175514.0700.>

On Sun, 18 Mar 2001, ardis eschenberg wrote:
> I've been trying to think of non-verb long vowels, which would thus not
> necesarily be polymorphemic.

I suspect one could find verbal examples that didn't involve vowel
sequences.

> The other day in class we got moNhi khe paai.  'The knife is sharp.'

This is perhaps helpful because it is a widespread cognate set, involving
loss of intervocalic h in OP.

Da phe
OP ppai (not marking length) (perhaps also in MaNzEppe 'axe')
IO pha'hiN
Wi paahi'

There are various ways to approach the length in Winnebago.  One approach
might be to see it as a relict of historical initial stress, but one also
has to wonder why the form was originally initially stressed, and the
usual answer on that is to wonder if historically this stem might not have
had a long vowel in the initial syllable.  For some reason length is
slightly more perceivable in Winnebago than it has proved elsewhere.  One
obvious suggestion - it has certainly occurred to me - has been that Ken
Miner (working on Winnebago) is a somewhat better phonetician than, e.g.,
John Koontz.  I've been given to understand that length is not always that
easy to perceive in Winnebago, but I nevertheless feel a certain
embarasment on the whole subject.

The real questions are, of course, (a) is the length really there in
Omaha-Ponca, which seems to be the case, and (b) is it contrastive in
accented syllables and in non-accented syllables, omitting any possibility
of polymorphemic sequences.  It would suffice to be contrastive in one or
the other of accented and unaccented syllables, of course.  It wouldn't
have to be both, and it would be typical Siouan phonological perversity if
it weren't.  We might even want to be prepared for something like a length
contrast in accented initial syllables, but not in non-initial syllables,
accented or otherwise.

I think Kathy Shea has a few clear examples of a length contast in
accented syllables, but I haven't heard of any in unaccented syllables.

In passing, note the waffling on the nasality of the final vowel between
IO and Wi, an interesting issue.

> where the word for sharp was long and not just stressed.  Note that it was
> translated as singular and not plural so I don't think it's some kind of
> reduplication.

I think you can rule that out, but I'll be interested to see what the test
produces.

> I have an idea of how to get this in contrast...I'll try it
> this week.

Where do you pereceive stress, pitch, or whatever?


From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu  Mon Mar 19 06:25:53 2001
From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 00:25:53 -0600
Subject: Omaha-Ponca Long Vowls
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.002553.0600.>

As Bob has pointed out to me, we need to listen for length and record it and
then go back to look at the stress.  It is hard, though.  I haven't been
very systematic about it so far.  When I first started doing fieldwork,
almost every vowel sounded long to me, so I stopped writing long vowels as
much.  I need to go back and look at my notes again.  Anyway, the few times
that I've become aware of minimal pairs for length have been when I've been
corrected by native speakers.  This was true of the now worn examples I've
given of vowel length not spanning a morpheme boundary (repeated here in the
accepted Ponca practical writing system with the adopted convention of
writing the accent mark over the first mora of a double, or long, vowel):
naN'aNde "heart" vs. naN'de "inside perimeter of a tipi (tent)" and niN'iNde
"ripe, cooked, done" vs. niN'de "person's backside, buttocks."  In order to
pronounce these two examples with long vowels to the satisfaction of native
speakers, I usually try to include a rising-falling pitch or a "catch" in my
throat (slight glottal stop or creaky voice), or both when saying the
vowels.  If I ask Ponca speakers if the vowel sounds long or drawn out, they
usually say that, no, it's cut off (due to the glottal stop)!  You all know
that Bob has written an article on this phenomenon of Ponca vowel length
associated with rising-falling pitch/glottal stop/creaky voice.  Another
word where I hear this type of "length" is in my name, TesaN'aNwiN, where
saN'aN means "pale, milky or dirty white."  Of course all these examples
have long nasal vowels.  Several months ago in one of our Ponca language
workshops, again in a case where the fluent Ponca speaker--Henry Lieb, the
Ponca language teacher at Frontier High School in Red Rock--wasn't happy
with my initial pronunciation, we came up with an example of a minimal
triplet.  As I recall (off the top of my head) it involved she'e thaN "the
(round) apple" vs. she' thaN "that (round object)" vs. shethaN' (?).  (I'm
sorry, I've forgotten the meaning for the last word.  I think it means
something like "while" or "then.")  Anyway, Ardis, you might want to try
eliciting those words.  I wish I could offer more enlightening observations,
but that's all I have for now.

Kathy

----- Original Message -----
From: "Koontz John E" <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 6:55 PM
Subject: Re: Omaha-Ponca Long Vowls


> On Sun, 18 Mar 2001, ardis eschenberg wrote:
> > I've been trying to think of non-verb long vowels, which would thus not
> > necesarily be polymorphemic.
>
> I suspect one could find verbal examples that didn't involve vowel
> sequences.
>
> > The other day in class we got moNhi khe paai.  'The knife is sharp.'
>
> This is perhaps helpful because it is a widespread cognate set, involving
> loss of intervocalic h in OP.
>
> Da phe
> OP ppai (not marking length) (perhaps also in MaNzEppe 'axe')
> IO pha'hiN
> Wi paahi'
>
> There are various ways to approach the length in Winnebago.  One approach
> might be to see it as a relict of historical initial stress, but one also
> has to wonder why the form was originally initially stressed, and the
> usual answer on that is to wonder if historically this stem might not have
> had a long vowel in the initial syllable.  For some reason length is
> slightly more perceivable in Winnebago than it has proved elsewhere.  One
> obvious suggestion - it has certainly occurred to me - has been that Ken
> Miner (working on Winnebago) is a somewhat better phonetician than, e.g.,
> John Koontz.  I've been given to understand that length is not always that
> easy to perceive in Winnebago, but I nevertheless feel a certain
> embarasment on the whole subject.
>
> The real questions are, of course, (a) is the length really there in
> Omaha-Ponca, which seems to be the case, and (b) is it contrastive in
> accented syllables and in non-accented syllables, omitting any possibility
> of polymorphemic sequences.  It would suffice to be contrastive in one or
> the other of accented and unaccented syllables, of course.  It wouldn't
> have to be both, and it would be typical Siouan phonological perversity if
> it weren't.  We might even want to be prepared for something like a length
> contrast in accented initial syllables, but not in non-initial syllables,
> accented or otherwise.
>
> I think Kathy Shea has a few clear examples of a length contast in
> accented syllables, but I haven't heard of any in unaccented syllables.
>
> In passing, note the waffling on the nasality of the final vowel between
> IO and Wi, an interesting issue.
>
> > where the word for sharp was long and not just stressed.  Note that it
was
> > translated as singular and not plural so I don't think it's some kind of
> > reduplication.
>
> I think you can rule that out, but I'll be interested to see what the test
> produces.
>
> > I have an idea of how to get this in contrast...I'll try it
> > this week.
>
> Where do you pereceive stress, pitch, or whatever?
>
>


From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu  Mon Mar 19 06:31:56 2001
From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 00:31:56 -0600
Subject: Sleeps and Winters (fwd)
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.003156.0600.>

The Ponca usage is the same as the Omaha.

Kathy

----- Original Message -----
From: "Koontz John E" <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 6:18 PM
Subject: RE: Sleeps and Winters (fwd)


> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 10:36:25 -0600
> From: "Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu>
> To: 'Koontz John E ' <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
> Subject: RE: Sleeps and Winters
>
>
> > laconically, wani'yetu 'winter, year'.
>
> The Kaws seem to have used omoNyiNkka for 'year' in the Dorsey texts, but
it
> is also used for 'season'.
>
> Koontz adds:
>
> In OP umaN'[dh]iNkka, 'season, year', also sometimes used in counting
> ages.  And I've always noticed maN[dh]iN'kka 'earth, soil'.
>
> (Bob asked me to post this for him as his university email address has
> unexpectedly changed, cutting him off temporarily from posting access.
> JEK)


From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu  Mon Mar 19 07:10:42 2001
From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 01:10:42 -0600
Subject: Thousand (fwd)
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.011042.0600.>

I don't have much to add to this, except that I'm reminded that the Ponca
name of Old Man McDonald, who raised James P. Williams, the father of
Parrish Williams, winegi and one of the elders teaching me Ponca, was
ttaN'de naNkku'ge (TaN'de NaNku'ge) "making the ground roar (drumming or
pounding the ground by running)."  I'll try to find out more about the
origin of the meaning of "thousand" for kku'ge (ku'ge) at the day-long
workshop that the Ponca Language Arts Council is holding tomorrow,
especially since Henry Lieb, the Ponca language teacher in the high school,
whom most of the Dhegihanists met at our last Siouan and Caddoan Languages
conference, has been teaching how to do arithmetic in Ponca lately and plans
to show us some of the materials he's been using in his lessons.

Kathy

----- Original Message -----
From: "Koontz John E" <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 6:22 PM
Subject: RE: Thousand (fwd)


> Anohter post for RLR:
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 10:40:46 -0600
> From: "Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu>
> To: 'Koontz John E ' <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
> Subject: RE: Thousand
>
>
> > It's generally reported that Omaha-Ponca kkuge 'box, thousand', derives
> > from the practice of delivering treaty payments in boxes of a thousand
> > dollar coins.  I don't actually know what the source is on that
> > anymore,
>
> I believe Mrs. Rowe was the first to mention this to me. But I'm no longer
> certain.
>
> The (Dakota) box term is khoka' 'keg, barrel', which is a regular match
for
> kkuge, etc.
>
> I've always assumed this was ultimately derived from the verb 'to make a
> hollow sound'.  As probably is 'gourd'.    bob


From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu  Mon Mar 19 12:37:21 2001
From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 06:37:21 -0600
Subject: Box, 1000
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.063721.0600.>

Here is the relavent Wi material:

kokiz^aN	               one box; one thousand (dollars in a box) [Dorsey]
kog	                    box [Marino-Radin]
kogera (cogue-er-rah)	  trunk-chest, box [George]
kokera 	                box [Foster, Marino-Radin]
kokara	                 boxes [Dorsey]
kok	                    box [Dorsey from Longtail]
kok	                    box [vid. koc, to bundle?] [Marino-Radin]
kogowanana	             rolling box; barrel [cf. wan?, to roll] [Marino-Radin]
kokawanana	             a barrel [Dorsey]
kokawaNnaNnaN 	         barrel [Foster]
kok'hoaris^	            hoop [Gatschet]

hoki-ihi	               one thousand [Gatschet]
okihi xatez^a	          one thousand [Gatschet]
okihiz^a	               one hundred [Gatschet]
okihiz^aN	              one hundred [Dorsey]


From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu  Mon Mar 19 12:44:03 2001
From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 06:44:03 -0600
Subject: Sleeps & Winters
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.064403.0600.>

"Does anyone know anything about the distribution in North America of
the usage 'sleep(s)' in ennumerating days or 'winter(s)' in ennumerating
years?"

This pattern hold in Wi.  The Four Nights Wake, as Radin calls it, is really the
Four Sleepings in Wi.


From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu  Mon Mar 19 13:03:41 2001
From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark Awakuni-Swetland)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 07:03:41 -0600
Subject: Back to the Platte
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.070341.0600.>

19 March 2001
>>From the earlier discussion about the term Nibthaska and its reference to "shallowness?"

In the preface to La Flesche's "The Middle Five," he notes that..."Most of the country now known as the State of Nebraska (the Omaha name of the river Plattt, descriptive of its shallowness, width, and low banks)..." (1963:xix).

The geese are coming back, so the warm weather will soon be here to stay.

Aloha,
uthixide


Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Lecturer
Anthropology/Ethnic Studies
c/o Department of Anthropology-Geography
University of Nebraska
Bessey Hall 132
Lincoln, NE 68588-0368
Office 402-472-3455
Dept. 402-472-2411
FAX 402-472-9642
mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu
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From are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu  Mon Mar 19 19:10:40 2001
From: are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu (ardis eschenberg)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:10:40 -0500
Subject: Thousand (fwd)
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.141040.0500.>

UmoNdhiNkha is the normal way 'year' is referred to by the speakers I know
(Omaha).

Re: Kathy's long vowels:
I have gotten niNde for 'butt' and niide for 'ripe,' but I'll try listening
again.  Hmmm...It's hard for me to hear nasalization after a nasal.  For
example, with the verb 'to be' bthiN 'I am' sounds very nasal but niN 'you
are' sounds just like assimilated nasality.

Re: Paai 'sharp'
this is also used for 'porcupine' but there wasn't the contrast I hope for.
I perceive accent on the vowel sequence.  Likely on the dipthong but there
is a definite 'a' sound leading into it.

Next time I record...

Geese, robins, a bluejay here...loveliness.
-Ardis


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Mar 19 20:16:03 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 13:16:03 -0700
Subject: Sleep/Winter
In-Reply-To: <003701c0b0a8$5667a040$d9b678cc@ecj8c>
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.131603.0700.>

On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, ardis eschenberg wrote:

> UmoNdhiNkha is the normal way 'year' is referred to by the speakers I know
> (Omaha).

The examples of 'sleeps' and 'winters' as counting units are all in the
Dorsey texts, though there are some 'years/seasons' counting examples
there, too.  (Also a neat word for a 'two year old colt', not related to
either.)


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Mar 19 20:26:21 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 13:26:21 -0700
Subject: Sleep/Winter
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0103191306240.12345-100000@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.132621.0700.>

On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, Koontz John E wrote:

> On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, ardis eschenberg wrote:
>
> > UmoNdhiNkha is the normal way 'year' is referred to by the speakers I know
> > (Omaha).
>
> The examples of 'sleeps' and 'winters' as counting units are all in the
> Dorsey texts, ...

And, as far as I know, the 'winter' is only used in the sense of 'year' in
counting ages or elapsed time.

JEK


From mosind at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 20:10:10 2001
From: mosind at yahoo.com (Wablenica)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 23:10:10 +0300
Subject: Sleeps and Winters
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.231010.0300.>

>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 10:36:25 -0600
>From: "Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu>
>To: 'Koontz John E ' <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
>Subject: RE: Sleeps and Winters
>
>The Kaws seem to have used omoNyiNkka for 'year' in the Dorsey texts, but
it
>is also used for 'season'.
>
>Koontz adds:
>
>In OP umaN'[dh]iNkka, 'season, year', also sometimes used in counting
>ages.  And I've always noticed maN[dh]iN'kka 'earth, soil'.


Lakhota also has o'makxa - season, year.
I wonder, how/why do these words in Siouan relate to makxa "earth"?


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Mar 19 20:41:11 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 13:41:11 -0700
Subject: 'Heart'
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.134111.0700.>

Incidentally, naN'aNde 'heart' is NOT a *R word.  It belongs to a small
class of body part terms that have *y > c^h in Dakotan, but *r/_VN > n
elsewhere in Mississippi Valley Siouan.  So the set here is Lakota c^haNl
~ c^haNte', OP naN'aNde, Wi naNaNc^ (I seem to recall this alternant) ~
naNaNc^ge'.  This particular term normally as a -ge < *-ka extension in
independent form in Winnebago.  The alternants in Dakotan and perhaps
Winnebago show that this stem is "consonant final" in some sense.

Actually, since only Dakotan and Dhegiha distinguish *y and *r, it's kind
of hard to say what happens in Chiwere, Winnebago, Mandan, etc., where
these merge.

I suspect that the variation here has to do with different treatments of
forms with/without inalienable possessor pronominals prefixed, though body
part terms are not usually inalienable in modern MV languages.
Hypothetically, for example, suppose the stem was *aNt-, and *i-aNt-
'his/her heart' > *yaNt- in PreDakotan, but in PreDhegiha *aNt- ~
*i-r-aNt- with an epenthetic r was perhaps reanalyzed as a *raNt-.

There are some complications with carrying this to other branches of
Siouan, and I don't want to insist that this is the particular explanation
involved.  For example, in Crow-Hidatsa there is a paradigmatic opposition
between body parts (normally possessed inalienably) that seem to have an
organic initial i and those that don't.  I don't recall the details.  I
seem to recall that this doesn't line exactly with the *y : *r sets, but I
wonder if it might be connected.

Anyway, it might be interesting to see if any of the other *y : *r sets
might involve length, even if there aren't minimal pairs.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Mar 19 21:02:20 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:02:20 -0700
Subject: More on Long Vow(e)ls
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.140220.0700.>

As long as I'm thinking about it, there are some other accentual things
in OP that I noticed in Dorsey after my fieldwork that I've always
wondered about.

One of them is pretty straight forward and not much real help, except
perhaps historically.  This is that the syncopated pronominals with
dh-stems (or th-stems) and others behave as if they were moras for
accentuation.

So it's

bdha'the 'I eat'
(s^)na'the 'you eat'

and

aNdha'tha(=i) 'we eat'

but

dhatha'(=i) 'he/she eats'

Notice that the b and (now lost) s^ act like syllables (in some sense) to
pull stress to the first syllable of the root, just as the inclusive aN
and various other prefixes do.

(Yes, *r or *dh in *s^r or *s^dh is acting like *R, and it does so in
Dakotan, too, but not in Ioway-Otoe or Winnebago.)

I guess that something like this is happening in gaghe, too:

ppa'ghe
s^ka'ghe

aNga'gha(=i)

gagha'=i


And in daNbe 'see':

ttaN'be
s^taN'be

aNdaN'ba(=i)

daNba'(=i)

Of course with the pleonastic modern first and second persons in attaN'be,
dhas^taN'be this pattern is erased here.

I think I am remembering all this correctly, but I have the impression
that some of these stems have initial stress when the plural/proximate
marker is missing, e.g., ga'ghe, daN'be, etc.  But dhathe'?  Which would
seem to be saying that OP has an analog of the unaccentable final vowels
in Dakotan in some contexts.

Needless to say, these are the kind of stems where one might expect to
find some long vowels perhaps varying under different accentual schemes,
e.g., ??gaa'ghe ~ ??ga(?)gha'=i.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Mar 19 21:12:11 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:12:11 -0700
Subject: Season/Year and Earth (was Re: Sleeps and Winters)
In-Reply-To: <001c01c0b0b5$04456600$a661bcd4@wablenica>
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.141211.0700.>

On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, Wablenica wrote:
> >In OP umaN'[dh]iNkka, 'season, year', also sometimes used in counting
> >ages.  And I've always noticed maN[dh]iN'kka 'earth, soil'.
>
> Lakhota also has o'makxa - season, year.
> I wonder, how/why do these words in Siouan relate to makxa "earth"?

Me, too.  There's an obvious connection of earth in the extended sense of
the whole earthen surface of the earth and season.  Somehow 'in earth' =
'season'.  Maybe 'on earth' would be a better reading?  Or is it just a
coincidence inherited from Proto-Siouan?

And what is the extra -dhiN- syllable in Dhegiha?  In OP the dh is never
nasalized to n, and the dh can be left out in fast speech.

There's another unusual dh in is^tiniNkhe 'Trickster' (aka 'Monkey' in
OP).  Here it is usually nasalized to n, but I've seen dh, too, and in IO
it is deleted, leaving is^tiNkhe.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Mar 19 20:23:55 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 13:23:55 -0700
Subject: Omaha-Ponca Long Vowels
In-Reply-To: <003701c0b0a8$5667a040$d9b678cc@ecj8c>
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.132355.0700.>

On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, ardis eschenberg wrote:
> Re: Kathy's long vowels:
> I have gotten niNde for 'butt' and niide for 'ripe,' but I'll try listening
> again.  Hmmm...It's hard for me to hear nasalization after a nasal.  For
> example, with the verb 'to be' bthiN 'I am' sounds very nasal but niN 'you
> are' sounds just like assimilated nasality.

For what it is worth, niide 'ripe' isn't historically nasal.  It's a
"funny *R" word, corresponding to Osage cu'ce and Lakota luta 'red'.  I
think Winnebago has duuc^.  The "funny R" words have a nasal reflex of the
consonant "funny *R" in OP, but nowhere else.

Note, of course, that what was true historically need not be the case
today.  There's no reason why this or other n from funny *R words
shouldn't be nasalized today.  In cases where the n precedes e or u < *o,
one might not expect this (negi 'mother's brother', neghe 'pot', ne 'lake'
(said to be Ponca only), nu 'man', 'nu 'potato'), but there are cases of
*R before i, a, and *u > i, where nasalization could occur.  At the moment
I'm not recalling the examples (other than 'ripe', of course).  I think
'ice' is nughe from *Roogh(e).  One of the various senses of naNzhiN may
be an a-example - hair'?

What does come to me is that *pr also behaves as *R in nouns in OP, e.g.,
in nu 'man', and nu 'potato' compare Lakota bloka', blo, and ne 'lake',
compare Dakota ble.  And the *pr can precede a nasal vowel, as in ni(N?)
'fluid, water, major river' compare Dakota mni.

JEK

P.S.  Sorry about typing vowel as vowl in the subject earlier.  See what I
mean about me and vowel length?


From CRudin at wscgate.wsc.edu  Mon Mar 19 21:37:50 2001
From: CRudin at wscgate.wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 15:37:50 -0600
Subject: More on Long Vow (e)ls
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.153750.0600.>

> I have the impression
>that some of these stems have initial stress when the plural/proximate
>marker is missing, e.g., ga'ghe, daN'be, etc.  But dhathe'?

I certainly always hear(d) first syllable accent in these.  But then I nearly
always marked initial accent with the plural/proximate too -- lots of
ga'gha=i=the etc. in my texts.  As John knows I sometimes hear(d) accent on a
different syllable than where he marks it, perhaps because I expected stress
instead of pitch accent...

For what it's worth!  Catherine


From Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu  Mon Mar 19 22:48:14 2001
From: Richard.L.Dieterle-1 at tc.umn.edu (Richard L. Dieterle)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 16:48:14 -0600
Subject: Year, Earth
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.164814.0600.>

"Lakhota also has o'makxa - season, year. I wonder, how/why do these words in
Siouan relate to makxa 'earth'?" --"Wablenica"

I had assumed that maN, "earth," and maN, "year," were accidental homonyms.
Here's what I've gotten so far in Wi:

maN	                  year, years [Dorsey-Longtail, Gatschet]
maN 	                 time [Marino-Radin]
maNn	                 year [Gatschet]
maNiz^aN	             a year [Dorsey]
maN nubohanaNga	      to elapse (of years) ? [cf. nup] [Marino-Radin]
maNjiregaN	           as the years go by; year by year [cf. maN, earth; jire, to
                      go by] [Marino-Radin]
maNgicawaN	           forever, for eternity [cf. maN, time; ca, waN]
                      [Marino-Radin]
maNnegus	             all the years past [narrator of "Wor?xega"]
maNnegusdi	           forever (to measure by the earth) [narrator of "Ghost
                      Dance"]
maNnegusji	           forever, always [cf. maN, time] [Marino-Radin]
maNni	                winter [cf. ni, agentive nominalizer ?] [Marino-Radin]
mani	                 winter [Gatschet, Dorsey]
mani hinz^i huwire	   the last year [Gatschet]
maNnina (maah-nee-nah)	year, winter.  "This really means 'winters' -- the
                       Winnebago count years by winters." [George]
manit'e	              this winter [Dorsey]
manine 	              this winter [James StCyr]
manine	               last winter [Gatschet]
maninga	              in winter [Aleck Lonetree]
maNniniz^aN          	a year [George]
maNs'ireja	           long years ago [Rufus Tiver]
MaN canaha raniz^e?	  How old are you? [Gatschet]
mokahi	               a number of years [cf. kahi ?] [Marino-Radin]
maNci	                to winter [cf. maN, time; ci, lodge][Marino-Radin]
marace	               to plan [cf. maN, earth, time][Marino-Radin]

maNna                 the ground [Dorsey]
maNra (maun-dah)	     ground [George]
ma	                   earth, ground [Gatschet]
ma	                   lands, country [Gatschet]
maN	                  earth [Gatschet, Dorsey-Longtail, Marino-Radin]
maN	                  ground [Gatschet]
maNna	                the land [narrator of "Wor?xega"]
mo	                   earth, time (an older form of maN) [Marino-Radin]
MaN'u?na	             Earthmaker, the Creator [Dorsey]

The narrator of "Ghost Dance" gives the gloss for maNnegusdi as "(to measure by
the earth)," but that, I think, is just folk etymology. I find it odd that
Marino suggests that the root of maNjiregaN, "as the years go by,"	is maN,
"earth."

maN also means, "a spring, shell, nest, arrow, wind, to strike." Some of these
homonyms give rise to mythological symbolism (arrow for time, perhaps).


From rankin at ku.edu  Mon Mar 19 23:15:49 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 17:15:49 -0600
Subject: More on Long Vow (e)ls
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.171549.0600.>

Everyone,

I've been trying manfully not to weigh in on the vowel length business
because I have a bunch of deadlines that have to be met over Spring Break
(which it is here this week). BUT I can no longer resist. I will handle the
correspondence in reverse chronological order because that's how our brand
new, crappy email program makes me do it from "dial-in".

> I have the impression
>that some of these stems have initial stress when the plural/proximate
>marker is missing, e.g., ga'ghe, daN'be, etc.  But dhathe'?

I certainly always hear(d) first syllable accent in these.  But then I
nearly always marked initial accent with the plural/proximate too -- lots of
ga'gha=i=the etc. in my texts.  As John knows I sometimes hear(d) accent
on a different syllable than where he marks it, perhaps because I expected
stress instead of pitch accent...

I do too. But gaaghe always has a long vowel for me (that's in Kaw, of
course).  It's conjugated ppaaghe, $kaaghe, gaaghabe, oNgaaghabe, with
accent on the long V throughout. doNbe 'see' also has initial accent
throughout the 1st, 2nd, 3rd person. I am not so sure about 'chew, eat'. I
am pretty sure though that it is conjugated bl?che, hn?che, yach?be, but I
am uncertain of the vowel length here. I think the ? is long in the 1st and
2nd person forms.

Bob


From rankin at ku.edu  Mon Mar 19 23:37:15 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 17:37:15 -0600
Subject: random phonological observations.
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.173715.0600.>

> Re: Kathy's long vowels:
> I have gotten niNde for 'butt' and niide for 'ripe,' but I'll try
listening again.

For what it is worth, niide 'ripe' isn't historically nasal.  It's a
"funny *R" word, corresponding to Osage cu'ce and Lakota luta 'red'.  I
think Winnebago has duuc^.  The "funny R" words have a nasal reflex of
the consonant "funny *R" in OP, but nowhere else.

Yep, Kaw j?:je 'cooked, ripe' (Initial syll. accent).

What does come to me is that *pr also behaves as *R in nouns in OP,
e.g., in nu 'man', and nu 'potato' compare Lakota bloka', blo, and ne
'lake', compare Dakota ble.  And the *pr can precede a nasal vowel, as in
ni(N?)'fluid, water, major river' compare Dakota mni.

For the record, my analysis of these clusters is a little different from
John's. I identify the /b/ of ble, blo, bloka, etc. and the /m/ of mni as
reflexes of what we sometimes (probably inaccurately) call the "absolutive
prefix". For me that would have been *wa- with inanimate nouns and *wi- with
animate nouns. Therefore, for me, there is no such cluster as *pr. /bl/ and
/mn/ both go back to somewhat earlier *w-r (after vowel syncope), one in a
nasal and the other in a non-nasal environment.

In fact, I derive ALL [b]'s in Dakotan through earlier *w. Even the syllable
codas in b~m found in causatives, reduplications, etc. go through the /w/
stage as Dakotan allows only sonorants in syllable codas. This accounts for
the analogous reduplications in l~d, g~ng from ultimately underlying -t and
-k also.

P.S.  Sorry about typing vowel as vowl in the subject earlier.  See what
I mean about me and vowel length?

That would be the "zero grade", wouldn't it?

bob


From rankin at ku.edu  Mon Mar 19 23:48:11 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 17:48:11 -0600
Subject: More on Long Vow(e)ls
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.174811.0600.>

> As long as I'm thinking about it, there are some other accentual things
in OP that I noticed in Dorsey after my fieldwork that I've always
wondered about.

> One of them is pretty straight forward and not much real help, except
perhaps historically.  This is that the syncopated pronominals with
dh-stems (or th-stems) and others behave as if they were moras for
accentuation.

Another instance of lost initial syllable vowels, as in the wa- wi- prefixes
I mentioned in my last posting.

>So it's
bdha'the 'I eat'
(s^)na'the 'you eat'
and
aNdha'tha(=i) 'we eat'
but
dhatha'(=i) 'he/she eats'

That works just like Kaw. But for whatever reason the verbs with inherently
long vowels like gaaghe 'make, do'doesn't shift.

Notice that the b and (now lost) s^ act like syllables (in some sense)
to pull stress to the first syllable of the root, just as the inclusive aN
and various other prefixes do.

(Yes, *r or *dh in *s^r or *s^dh is acting like *R, and it does so in
Dakotan, too, but not in Ioway-Otoe or Winnebago.)

I guess that something like this is happening in gaghe, too:

ppa'ghe
s^ka'ghe
aNga'gha(=i)
gagha'=i

That's where I am getting g?aghabe. with the long V.

Bob


From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Mar 20 00:21:08 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 18:21:08 -0600
Subject: Siouan Long Vowls
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAR.2001.182108.0600.>

> The real questions are, of course, (a) is the length really there in
> Omaha-Ponca, which seems to be the case, and (b) is it contrastive in
> accented syllables and in non-accented syllables, omitting any
> possibility of polymorphemic sequences.

> It would suffice to be contrastive in one or the other of accented and >
unaccented syllables, of course.  It wouldn't have to be both, and it >
would be typical Siouan phonological perversity if it weren't.

I think we are ignoring some basic tenets of phonology. It would suffice
even if all long vowels were traceable to polymorphemic sequences. It isn't
legitimate to consider the morphological environments in determining what is
distinctive in the phonology. For example, many instances of 'locative a-
prefix' are derivational and have little or no semantic content. The only
way they are identifiable is if we write them properly, either with a length
diacritic or with double vowels when they appear in sequences with other
instances of /a/. If we permit ourselves (as Dorsey often did) to write wa+a
or, worse, wa+a+a all as "wa-", we have made our transcription useless to
future generations. It will only be useful if we write ALL long vowels as
long. It isn't legit to write length "just where there is contrast". Who
knows in advance where there will be contrast?

Looked at across Siouan, it is notable that Crow, Hidatsa and Tutelo and
Ofo, at opposite geographical ends of the family, had length transcribed in
the same (i.e., cognate) lexemes as early as the late 19th and early 20th
century. Miner's Winnebago clearly shows that this persisted into
Mississippi Valley Siouan.

These languages have length in both accented and unaccented syllables. They
also have it morpheme-internally as well as at boundaries. If memory serves
(and Randy can correct me on this) Crow has three degrees of length, tho' I
don't know how this is resolved phonetically. High, low, rising and falling
pitch are all distinctive. I don't see how we can do less than transcribe
these things just as we hear them without ANY "assumptions" about
predictability.

Note that I am as guilty as everyone else in my early field transcriptions.
I am going to have to retranscribe all my notes before going much farther.

Bob


From Zylogy at aol.com  Tue Mar 20 05:23:40 2001
From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 00:23:40 EST
Subject: Year, Earth
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAR.2001.002340.EST.>

Hi. Just to add in my usual off the wall observation- in many languages the
morpheme for year/cycle/weather is similar in phonological shape to that for
earth/ground (and there may also be a case for person/man). Fellow travelers
from some distant time? I'm not sure I believe they ultimately have the
"same" etymology.

In any case, interestingly, in these languages the morphemes usually begin
with some rounded phoneme, either a labio-back or labial, and end in some
apical or nearly. Go figure. It would be interesting to know whether sound
changes were coordinate between the true etyma, w>m or vice versa, etc. *WEL
vs *MEN (articulatory positions pushed ahead one space on the phonological
cube), etc.  English, by the way, is one of the languages. Maybe a place to
look also are interrogative/irrealis formatives, which also tend to take
(k)w-/m- initials in reconstructed forms.

Jess Tauber
zylogy at aol.com
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From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU  Tue Mar 20 15:34:46 2001
From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 08:34:46 -0700
Subject: a phonetic mystery
In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A4413E3@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAR.2001.083446.0700.>

Dear Bob and everyone else,
	I would like confirmation of the following from others who listen
to Lakhota, but I hear a contrast between mni 'water', with an oral vowel,
and mniN kte 'I will go' with a nasal "i".  If that's the case, isn't
there a problem with deriving the m-n of 'water' from *w-r+nasal?  I still
think we have been far too sloppy in our listening to Lak. vowels after
nasal consonants, but it would take a dedicated study to straighten it
out, preferably one that uses instrumental phonetics and a variety of
speakers from different places and age groups.  Until we do this, however,
I think all our *w & *r reconstructions are suspect.
	DAvid


David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
Campus Box 295
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu


From ccpp at cetlink.net  Tue Mar 20 15:58:14 2001
From: ccpp at cetlink.net (Catawba Cultural Center)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 10:58:14 -0500
Subject: Year, Earth
In-Reply-To: <iss.2772.3ab68caa.d2a0.1@garnet.tc.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAR.2001.105814.0500.>

In Catawba, the word for "earth" and "year" is the same, and the word for
"month" and "moon, sun" is the same.

Catawba Cultural Preservation Project

-----Original Message-----
From:	owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Richard L. Dieterle
Sent:	Monday, March 19, 2001 5:48 PM
To:	siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject:	Year, Earth

"Lakhota also has o'makxa - season, year. I wonder, how/why do these words
in
Siouan relate to makxa 'earth'?" --"Wablenica"

I had assumed that maN, "earth," and maN, "year," were accidental homonyms.
Here's what I've gotten so far in Wi:

maN	                  year, years [Dorsey-Longtail, Gatschet]
maN 	                 time [Marino-Radin]
maNn	                 year [Gatschet]
maNiz^aN	             a year [Dorsey]
maN nubohanaNga	      to elapse (of years) ? [cf. nup] [Marino-Radin]
maNjiregaN	           as the years go by; year by year [cf. maN, earth;
jire, to
                      go by] [Marino-Radin]
maNgicawaN	           forever, for eternity [cf. maN, time; ca, waN]
                      [Marino-Radin]
maNnegus	             all the years past [narrator of "Wor?xega"]
maNnegusdi	           forever (to measure by the earth) [narrator of "Ghost
                      Dance"]
maNnegusji	           forever, always [cf. maN, time] [Marino-Radin]
maNni	                winter [cf. ni, agentive nominalizer ?] [Marino-Radin]
mani	                 winter [Gatschet, Dorsey]
mani hinz^i huwire	   the last year [Gatschet]
maNnina (maah-nee-nah)	year, winter.  "This really means 'winters' -- the
                       Winnebago count years by winters." [George]
manit'e	              this winter [Dorsey]
manine 	              this winter [James StCyr]
manine	               last winter [Gatschet]
maninga	              in winter [Aleck Lonetree]
maNniniz^aN          	a year [George]
maNs'ireja	           long years ago [Rufus Tiver]
MaN canaha raniz^e?	  How old are you? [Gatschet]
mokahi	               a number of years [cf. kahi ?] [Marino-Radin]
maNci	                to winter [cf. maN, time; ci, lodge][Marino-Radin]
marace	               to plan [cf. maN, earth, time][Marino-Radin]

maNna                 the ground [Dorsey]
maNra (maun-dah)	     ground [George]
ma	                   earth, ground [Gatschet]
ma	                   lands, country [Gatschet]
maN	                  earth [Gatschet, Dorsey-Longtail, Marino-Radin]
maN	                  ground [Gatschet]
maNna	                the land [narrator of "Wor?xega"]
mo	                   earth, time (an older form of maN) [Marino-Radin]
MaN'u?na	             Earthmaker, the Creator [Dorsey]

The narrator of "Ghost Dance" gives the gloss for maNnegusdi as "(to measure
by
the earth)," but that, I think, is just folk etymology. I find it odd that
Marino suggests that the root of maNjiregaN, "as the years go by,"	is maN,
"earth."

maN also means, "a spring, shell, nest, arrow, wind, to strike." Some of
these
homonyms give rise to mythological symbolism (arrow for time, perhaps).


From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu  Tue Mar 20 17:20:31 2001
From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:20:31 -0600
Subject: Back to the Platte
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAR.2001.112031.0600.>

I enjoyed your poetic description of Nebraska this time of year.  Here in north central Oklahoma, the green grass and winter wheat is starting to show, and people around here are planting potatoes and frying up wild onions.  The shinny games will start soon--in April--giving people the chance to get outside and run around after the winter.

I'm not saying much linguistic, except that I did find out from Henry Lieb the meaning of the third Ponca term in the minimal triplet for vowel length and stress that I wrote about in a previous message:  s^ee'dhaN (shee'thaN) 'the (round, inanimate) apple'; s^e'dhaN (she'thaN) 'that (round, inamimate object)'; and s^edhaN' (shethaN') 'broken.'

Kathy
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Mark Awakuni-Swetland 
  To: Siouan 
  Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 7:03 AM
  Subject: Back to the Platte


  19 March 2001
  From the earlier discussion about the term Nibthaska and its reference to "shallowness?"
   
  In the preface to La Flesche's "The Middle Five," he notes that..."Most of the country now known as the State of Nebraska (the Omaha name of the river Plattt, descriptive of its shallowness, width, and low banks)..." (1963:xix).
   
  The geese are coming back, so the warm weather will soon be here to stay.
   
  Aloha,
  uthixide
   

  Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Lecturer
  Anthropology/Ethnic Studies
  c/o Department of Anthropology-Geography
  University of Nebraska
  Bessey Hall 132
  Lincoln, NE 68588-0368
  Office 402-472-3455
  Dept. 402-472-2411
  FAX 402-472-9642
  mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu
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From Rgraczyk at aol.com  Tue Mar 20 17:17:33 2001
From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 12:17:33 EST
Subject: Year, Earth
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAR.2001.121733.EST.>

In Crow and Hidatsa we have awa' 'earth, land'.  Also, in Hidatsa 'awa 'year'
and in Crow awa' 'season'.  I always assumed these were homonymns, but maybe
not!

Randy
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From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Mar 20 17:12:41 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:12:41 -0600
Subject: a phonetic mystery
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAR.2001.111241.0600.>

> I would like confirmation of the following from others who
listen to Lakhota, but I hear a contrast between mni 'water', with an oral
vowel, and mniN kte 'I will go' with a nasal "i".  If that's the case, isn't
there a problem with deriving the m-n of 'water' from *w-r+nasal?  I
still think we have been far too sloppy in our listening to Lak. vowels
after nasal consonants, but it would take a dedicated study to straighten it
out, preferably one that uses instrumental phonetics and a variety of
speakers from different places and age groups.  Until we do this,
however, I think all our *w & *r reconstructions are suspect.

While I agree that most of us have been remiss in not distinguishing nasal
from non-nasal vowels after nasal consonants (the problem isn't limited to
Dakotan!), I think the degree of nasalization in 'water' and 'I will go' is
a simple matter of relative chronology.

'Water' had a nasal V in the proto language as shown by the cognate set, all
members of which but Ofo show consistent [n]'s. The vowel itself may have
denasalized fairly early.

Nasalization in 'I will go', on the other hand, is very recent, as shown by
the fact that only in Dakotan do we find reflexes of nasalization in this
sequence at all. This presumably stems from the fact that the 'irrealis'
mode (=future "tense") marker is/was bimorphemic in the form taken by
Dakotan. It had nasalization associated with the morph preceding ktA. If I
recall correctly, Winnebago or Chiwere preserves the [iN]. This would have
to have developed after the split-off of Dhegiha since only the *-kte >
tte/a is preserved there. It goes back to a verb that meant 'want'
apparently, considering the Crow/Hidatsa/Mandan/Biloxi cognates, but the
nasal element is separate and doesn't show up in those languages either.  I
think John has come up with Omaha cognates for the -iN- as a separate
morpheme.

So the "old" nasal vowels apparently denasalize after m/n while the newer
ones came along afterward and don't.

That doesn't mean that all the developments in the *w-r sequences are clear
and obvious however! Far from it.

Bob


From munro at ucla.edu  Tue Mar 20 18:48:14 2001
From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 10:48:14 -0800
Subject: a phonetic mystery
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAR.2001.104814.0800.>

I can't speak to the historical issue here, but I think there is a good
reason why we might hear a difference between mn? 'water' and mn?nkte
(as I would write it) 'I will go'. The vowel after the mn in 'water'
seems to me to be a derived nasal vowel that acquires its nasality from
the preceding nasal consonant, while the vowel after the mn in 'I will
go' is an underlyingly nasal vowel (the future of every ablaut verb ends
in -inkta/e, regardless of what consonant precedes). In fact, it's this
underlying nasality that causes the expected bl- of 'I will go' to
become mn- (which doesn't seem to happen for the relatively younger
speaker I'm currently working with, which is why I don't have any clear
intuition for David's particular perception question).

I know that in Assiniboine and elsewhere there's suppposed to be a
contrast between oral and nasal vowels after nasal consonants in
underived environments (which the above isn't); I personally haven't
observed this in Lakhota (and nor, I believe, did anyone in the field
methods class that I taught two years ago, which included many
phoneticians far more instrumentally sophisticated than I am).

I hope this naive observation is helpful. I'm just a lurking groupie.

Pam Munro



ROOD DAVID S wrote:
>
> Dear Bob and everyone else,
>         I would like confirmation of the following from others who listen
> to Lakhota, but I hear a contrast between mni 'water', with an oral vowel,
> and mniN kte 'I will go' with a nasal "i".  If that's the case, isn't
> there a problem with deriving the m-n of 'water' from *w-r+nasal?  I still
> think we have been far too sloppy in our listening to Lak. vowels after
> nasal consonants, but it would take a dedicated study to straighten it
> out, preferably one that uses instrumental phonetics and a variety of
> speakers from different places and age groups.  Until we do this, however,
> I think all our *w & *r reconstructions are suspect.
>         DAvid
>
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> Campus Box 295
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue Mar 20 18:27:10 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:27:10 -0700
Subject: a phonetic mystery
In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A4413E9@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAR.2001.112710.0700.>

On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote:

Referring to the iN grade of ablaut in Lakota with ktA 'future/irrealis':

> I think John has come up with Omaha cognates for the -iN- as a
> separate morpheme.

My candidate is the -iN- that appears in the modal form =iN=the ~ e=iN=the
'perhaps', where the =the is one of the articles in an evidential
capacity.  It's just a little lost iN, one of two.

The other little lost iN, probably not relevant here, occurs after
maNs^tiNge 'rabbit' sometimes when it's in the sense 'the Rabbit'.  I've
seen a similar iN after gdhoN 'thunder' in the LaFlesche Osage Dictionary
and I wonder if this might not be some sort of honorific, akin to what
looks like a similar use of ga in Winnebago.  Whatever it is, it doesn't
seem very productive.

JEK


From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Mar 20 22:28:14 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 16:28:14 -0600
Subject: a phonetic mystery
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAR.2001.162814.0600.>

>From: Pamela Munro
>I can't speak to the historical issue here, but I think there is a good
>reason why we might hear a difference between mn? 'water' and mn?nkte
>(as I would write it) 'I will go'. The vowel after the mn in 'water'
>seems to me to be a derived nasal vowel that acquires its nasality from
>the preceding nasal consonant, while the vowel after the mn in 'I will
>go' is an underlyingly nasal vowel (the future of every ablaut verb ends
>in -inkta/e, regardless of what consonant precedes). In fact, it's this
>underlying nasality that causes the expected bl- of 'I will go' to
>become mn- ...

It is often said (e.g. Fox's recent book on linguistic reconstruction) that
the methodologies of (internal) reconstruction and synchronic phonology are
identical and (by others) that the rules of synchronic phonology
recapitulate the historical processes that led to the present-day system. I
have strongly opposed this in a chapter that will appear in Blackwell's
Handbook of Historical Ling. Pam's examples are a nice case in point.
Historically, it is clearly 'water' that had the underlying nasal vowel, and
its consonants represent secondary nasalization, but synchronically, as both
David and Pam point out, the vowel has lost its underlying nasality. 'Go',
on the other hand, had the oral vowel *e, and it's nasalization is strictly
secondary, from *iN+kte, just as Pam says. The language has simply been
restructured and our synchronic and diachronic methodologies and rules (or
constraints, for those who believe in them) simply yield different results.

Synchronically in Dakotan it is probably no longer possible to associate the
/m/ of m-ni 'water', the /b/ of b-loka 'male' or the /p/ of 'p-te' 'buffalo
cow' with absolutive wa- (or, historically, in the case of these particular
nouns, the animate *wi-). It has been lexicalized, or "phoneticized" as part
of the noun root.

The parallel allomorphs of first singular actor wa-, however, must still be
associated in 1st person actor forms such as m-aNka 'I sit', m-uN 'I do/use'
(I can't recall which of those 2 uses m-), and m-niN- 'I will go-IRR'; b-le
'I go'; p-hu 'I arrive coming', etc. where there is still a clear 1st person
semantic association.

Bob


From munro at ucla.edu  Wed Mar 21 00:23:14 2001
From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 16:23:14 -0800
Subject: a phonetic mystery
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAR.2001.162314.0800.>

After I sent my note I realized I should have added lots of
"synchronically"s (e.g. in "the vowel after the mn in 'water' seems to
me to be SYNCHRONICALLY a derived nasal vowel"). But I know you all got
that. Thanks, Bob.

Pam

('I do'/'I wear' is m-?n; 'I am located' is wa-'?n...)



"Rankin, Robert L" wrote:
>
> >From: Pamela Munro
> >I can't speak to the historical issue here, but I think there is a good
> >reason why we might hear a difference between mn? 'water' and mn?nkte
> >(as I would write it) 'I will go'. The vowel after the mn in 'water'
> >seems to me to be a derived nasal vowel that acquires its nasality from
> >the preceding nasal consonant, while the vowel after the mn in 'I will
> >go' is an underlyingly nasal vowel (the future of every ablaut verb ends
> >in -inkta/e, regardless of what consonant precedes). In fact, it's this
> >underlying nasality that causes the expected bl- of 'I will go' to
> >become mn- ...
>
> It is often said (e.g. Fox's recent book on linguistic reconstruction) that
> the methodologies of (internal) reconstruction and synchronic phonology are
> identical and (by others) that the rules of synchronic phonology
> recapitulate the historical processes that led to the present-day system. I
> have strongly opposed this in a chapter that will appear in Blackwell's
> Handbook of Historical Ling. Pam's examples are a nice case in point.
> Historically, it is clearly 'water' that had the underlying nasal vowel, and
> its consonants represent secondary nasalization, but synchronically, as both
> David and Pam point out, the vowel has lost its underlying nasality. 'Go',
> on the other hand, had the oral vowel *e, and it's nasalization is strictly
> secondary, from *iN+kte, just as Pam says. The language has simply been
> restructured and our synchronic and diachronic methodologies and rules (or
> constraints, for those who believe in them) simply yield different results.
>
> Synchronically in Dakotan it is probably no longer possible to associate the
> /m/ of m-ni 'water', the /b/ of b-loka 'male' or the /p/ of 'p-te' 'buffalo
> cow' with absolutive wa- (or, historically, in the case of these particular
> nouns, the animate *wi-). It has been lexicalized, or "phoneticized" as part
> of the noun root.
>
> The parallel allomorphs of first singular actor wa-, however, must still be
> associated in 1st person actor forms such as m-aNka 'I sit', m-uN 'I do/use'
> (I can't recall which of those 2 uses m-), and m-niN- 'I will go-IRR'; b-le
> 'I go'; p-hu 'I arrive coming', etc. where there is still a clear 1st person
> semantic association.
>
> Bob


From shanwest at uvic.ca  Wed Mar 21 07:30:11 2001
From: shanwest at uvic.ca (Shannon West)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 23:30:11 -0800
Subject: a phonetic mystery
In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A4413E9@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAR.2001.233011.0800.>

> It had nasalization associated with the morph
> preceding ktA. If I
> recall correctly, Winnebago or Chiwere preserves the [iN].

Okay.  I'm not sure I'm following this, so correct me if I'm off in left
field.  Would this be what is going on in Assiniboine:

wayaga - he sees
wayagiNkta - he will see

yuda - he eats (transitive)
yudiNkta - he will eat

It goes on and on.  A lot of verbs with stress on the first syllable seem to
be suseptible to this A--> iN ablaut (?) when -kta appears.

As for mni 'water', I've got it with both the nasal and non-nasal vowel from
my primary consultant.  I suspect that's my ear though.

Shannon


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Mar 21 08:32:27 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 01:32:27 -0700
Subject: a phonetic mystery
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0103200829220.17405-100000@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.013227.0700.>

On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, ROOD DAVID S wrote:
> 	I would like confirmation of the following from others who listen
> to Lakhota, but I hear a contrast between mni 'water', with an oral vowel,
> and mniN kte 'I will go' with a nasal "i".  If that's the case, isn't
> there a problem with deriving the m-n of 'water' from *w-r+nasal?  I still
> think we have been far too sloppy in our listening to Lak. vowels after
> nasal consonants, but it would take a dedicated study to straighten it
> out, preferably one that uses instrumental phonetics and a variety of
> speakers from different places and age groups.  Until we do this, however,
> I think all our *w & *r reconstructions are suspect.

I agree that the resconstructions of the sonorants oral and/or nasal could
use some work.  I was spouting current wisdom without including any
caveats.  I am puzzled by a number of cases where nasalization doesn't
occur or does occur.

I wonder, however, here if the issue isn't where the nasality comes from.
The impression I've always gotten from you is that there isn't much
perceptible nasality in vowels following nasal sonorants in Lakota.  I
tend to interpret this as a sort of lexical shift of nasality into
sonorants or sonorant clusters where this was possible.  (So, OK, where
does that leave wiNyaN et al., neglecting historical explanations!)
Otherwise, nasality resides in the vowel.  But in the future the nasality
is introduced with the enclitic and is lexically still tied to the vowel,
even though it does affect the sonorants of the stem.  I guess this
presumes Bob's view that ablaut involves an enclitic's initial vowel
replacing a base's final vowel, and not a change in the base's final
vowel.  (The issue being what entity owns the vowel.)

If you want another interesting case, consider the fact that in Dhegiha
nasality of the root vowel seems to nasalize the sonorants of nouns, but
not of verbs, e.g., ni(N) 'water', but bdhaN 'have an odor'.  And the
nouns lose the initial labial element, too, for that matter, while verbs
don't.

In fact, looking across Mississippi Valley, either there are effectively
four different environments for "*pr" - noun initial, inflected verb
initial, verb stem initial, medial - or one is driven to dividing the sets
up into *wr, *pr, etc.  No matter which way you slice it, however, you
have to assume a lot of analogical influence.

Sets illustrating the four *pr (or *wr or *war):

gloss     La    OP       Wi

lake      ble   ne       dee
water     mni   ni       nii

A1 + r    bl... bdh...   d...

flat      blas- bdhas-   paras
smell     -mna  (-)bdhaN paNnaN

three     yamni dhabdhiN daaniN

Nasal inflected verbs are somewhat complex cases - we've just seen one,
anyway, so I'll omit them.  'Three' is the only medial instance I know of.

Note that *pr pretty much behaves as *R when it simplifies, which is one
of the arguments, originating with Kaufman I think, for considering *R as
a sort of cluster.

Also, in IO, *pr behaves differently in ran(~)i 'three' and grerabriN
'eight', though I tend suspect this might involve, say, a loan from
Dhegiha.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Mar 21 08:53:26 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 01:53:26 -0700
Subject: a phonetic mystery
In-Reply-To: <003401c0b1d8$c4052e20$6436688e@fsh.uvic.ca>
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.015326.0700.>

On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Shannon West wrote:

> > It had nasalization associated with the morph preceding ktA.
> > If I recall correctly, Winnebago or Chiwere preserves the [iN].
>
> Okay.  I'm not sure I'm following this, so correct me if I'm off in left
> field.  Would this be what is going on in Assiniboine:
>
> wayaga - he sees
> wayagiNkta - he will see
...
Yes.  This is it, precisely.
>
> It goes on and on.  A lot of verbs with stress on the first syllable seem to
> be suseptible to this A--> iN ablaut (?) when -kta appears.

In theory, any verb that has a ~ e (or aN ~ e) [or as some write it A or
AN] should have iN as a third alternant before ktA.  Often, but not
always, A will be unaccented even when it is in the second syllable.  In
fact, unaccented "epenthetic" a in C-final roots is independent of A,
though it's strongly correlated with it.  The best survey of this is Pat
Shaw's dissertation.

The two major analyses are:

wayagA + kta => wayagiN-kta  (or A => iN / __#kta)

or

wayaga + iNkta => wayag-iNkta

As far as I know, only the first of these has ever been seriously
entertained by Dakotanists.

Also, while from a Dakotan perspective it makes sense to see a and aN as
the underlying final vowels, elsewhere in Siouan it's e that is seen as
the underlying vowel.  For one thing, only Dakotan does anything with aN;
for another only Dakotan uses a in what amount to citation forms.  In OP
essentially all e-final stems ablaut.  Most languages follow the Dakotan
pattern in which only some stems with the suitable final vowel ablaut.  I
suspect other Dhegiha languages follow the OP pattern.  I'm not sure about
Chiwere.

JEK


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Wed Mar 21 12:31:10 2001
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:31:10 GMT
Subject: Sleeps and Winters
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0103172328270.29230-100000@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.123110.GMT.>

That's very interesting about  chaN.  I'd always thought it had something to
do with chaN(a)s^na 'as many times as, when, whenever'.  Is the
chaN in chaN (a) s^na also from the 'sleep' word.

Bruce

Date sent:      	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 23:39:22 -0700 (MST)
Send reply to:  	siouan at lists.colorado.edu
From:           	Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
To:             	<siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Subject:        	Sleeps and Winters

  In Dakota Buechel
lists a term c^(h)aN 'night, day [apparently 24 hour day]' always
accompanied by a numeral and also, laconically, wani'yetu 'winter, year'.
The first of these Dakota terms is a regular cognate of OP zhaN 'sleep',
though it is not the regular verb 'to sleep' in Dakota.

JEK

Dr. Bruce Ingham
Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies
SOAS


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Wed Mar 21 12:35:50 2001
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:35:50 GMT
Subject: Sleeps and Winters
In-Reply-To: <3AB4F043.EC18F8B@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.123550.GMT.>

Cree also has the pipoon word for winter and year as you would expect and it is also used for
 telling one's age, though I can't remember how

Bruce
Date sent:      	Sun, 18 Mar 2001 11:28:35 -0600
Send reply to:  	siouan at lists.colorado.edu
From:           	"Alan H. Hartley" <ahartley at d.umn.edu>
To:             	siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject:        	Re: Sleeps and Winters

> Does anyone know anything aobut the distribution in North America of
> the usage 'sleep(s)' in ennumerating days or 'winter(s)' in ennumerating
> years?

Ojibway has pipo:n 'winter, year', e.g. nisso pipo:n 'three years'
[Baraga _Dict. Otchipwe Lang._]

Blackfoot kaanists?sstoyiimihpa 'how old are you?' is literally (as
close as I can tell) 'how many winters have you?' (sstoyii 'be
cold/winter) [Frantz & Russell _Blackfoot Dict._]

I?upiat has ukiuk 'winter, year' [Webster & Zibell _I?upiat Eskimo
Dict._]

Chinook Jargon has cole 'winter, year', from Eng. cold, e.g., ikt cole
'one year' [Thomas _Chinook_].

In Plains sign language, the signs for 'winter' and 'year' are the same
[Clark _Indian Sign Language_].

Creek and Alabama apparently lack both the year=winter and day=sleep
equations. (My cursory look showed no example of the latter in any
language.)

Virginia Algonquian used cohonk (wild goose) as 'year'.

Alan
Dr. Bruce Ingham
Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies
SOAS


From jggoodtracks at juno.com  Wed Mar 21 14:36:18 2001
From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 08:36:18 -0600
Subject: a phonetic mystery
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.083618.0600.>

John:
I believe that there are implications/ applications of this for Jiwere~
Chiwere.  I say this, because on occassions, the elders corrected me on
pronunciations.  Because of lack of a trained linguistic hearing, I never
noted such fine articulations.  Several words that I recall being
corrected on were:
phaa 	~   [paa (~paa'ge)] = nose of human; head of an animal  vs
pha	~   [pa	= bitter]

thaan(~)i ~   [taa'?i  = winter]
than(~)i   ~   [ta'?i   =  soup/ deer meat soup]

I will leave an further discussion of such applications in Ioway-Otoe to
Louanna & Jill if they wish to comment.
Jimm

On Wed, 21 Mar 2001 01:53:26 -0700 (MST) Koontz John E
<John.Koontz at colorado.edu> writes:
> On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Shannon West wrote:
>
> > > It had nasalization associated with the morph preceding ktA.
> > > If I recall correctly, Winnebago or Chiwere preserves the [iN].
> >
> > Okay.  I'm not sure I'm following this, so correct me if I'm off
> in left
> > field.  Would this be what is going on in Assiniboine:
> >
> > wayaga - he sees
> > wayagiNkta - he will see
> ...
> Yes.  This is it, precisely.
> >
> > It goes on and on.  A lot of verbs with stress on the first
> syllable seem to
> > be suseptible to this A--> iN ablaut (?) when -kta appears.
>
> In theory, any verb that has a ~ e (or aN ~ e) [or as some write it
> A or
> AN] should have iN as a third alternant before ktA.  Often, but not
> always, A will be unaccented even when it is in the second syllable.
>  In
> fact, unaccented "epenthetic" a in C-final roots is independent of
> A,
> though it's strongly correlated with it.  The best survey of this is
> Pat
> Shaw's dissertation.
>
> The two major analyses are:
>
> wayagA + kta => wayagiN-kta  (or A => iN / __#kta)
>
> or
>
> wayaga + iNkta => wayag-iNkta
>
> As far as I know, only the first of these has ever been seriously
> entertained by Dakotanists.
>
> Also, while from a Dakotan perspective it makes sense to see a and
> aN as
> the underlying final vowels, elsewhere in Siouan it's e that is seen
> as
> the underlying vowel.  For one thing, only Dakotan does anything
> with aN;
> for another only Dakotan uses a in what amount to citation forms.
> In OP
> essentially all e-final stems ablaut.  Most languages follow the
> Dakotan
> pattern in which only some stems with the suitable final vowel
> ablaut.  I
> suspect other Dhegiha languages follow the OP pattern.  I'm not sure
> about
> Chiwere.
>
> JEK
>


From Zylogy at aol.com  Wed Mar 21 15:59:55 2001
From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:59:55 EST
Subject: reduplication in Siouan languages
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.105955.EST.>

Hi. I'm coauthoring an areal/typological map/description of reduplicative
constructions  and wanted to know if any of you folks might help with Siouan-
I've got IJAL materials on a number of languages, and Boas on Lakhota- is
there any concensus on reconstructability of reduplication for the family?
Any areal patterns after dispersal of the various daughter subgroupings? Any
info would be helpful. Thanks.

Best
Jess Tauber
zylogy at aol.com
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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Mar 21 16:28:14 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 09:28:14 -0700
Subject: reduplication in Siouan languages
In-Reply-To: <37.125a7941.27ea29fb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.092814.0700.>

On Wed, 21 Mar 2001 Zylogy at aol.com wrote:
> Hi. I'm coauthoring an areal/typological map/description of reduplicative
> constructions  and wanted to know if any of you folks might help with Siouan-
> I've got IJAL materials on a number of languages, and Boas on Lakhota- is
> there any concensus on reconstructability of reduplication for the family?
> Any areal patterns after dispersal of the various daughter subgroupings? Any
> info would be helpful. Thanks.

Reduplication occurs pretty much throughout Siouan, but details of form
and use differ from language to language.  For an early survey in passing
for Mississippi Valley, see Boas & Swanton's article on Dakota with notes
on Omaha-Ponca and Winnebago in the old BAE Handbook of North American
Indian Languages.

The standard Dakota treatment of C-final stems is uniquely Dakotan.

I've seen or heard Pat Shaw, I think, discuss an additional pattern in
Stoney or Assiniboine, but I'm not sure at this point what the reference
would be, though, obviously, checking a list of her articles would be a
reasonable thing to do.  (Unfortunately, Pat Shaw is not on this list.)

JEK


From rankin at ku.edu  Wed Mar 21 16:34:09 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:34:09 -0600
Subject: Dakotan futures.
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.103409.0600.>

> wayaga - he sees
> wayagiNkta - he will see
> The best survey of this is Pat Shaw's dissertation.

Pub. by Garland press.

> The two major analyses are:
> 1) wayagA + kta => wayagiN-kta  (or A => iN / __#kta)
> or
> wayaga + iNkta => wayag-iNkta

> As far as I know, only the first of these has ever been seriously
> entertained by Dakotanists.

Although the second is clearly what happened historically, with the
understanding that iN and ktA were separate morphemes, cf. John's Omaha
forms in his posting yesterday. kte is semantically reconstructible as a
verb of 'wanting' and in Omaha iN seems to be a "perhaps-ative". :-)

If anyone is interested, I can "attach" my paper on Dhegihan "Ablaut" in
which I talk about the Dakotan problem quite a bit. It is a MSWord for
Windows file using the SIL SSDoulos font, (font available from John's web
site). Ablaut is a complex question, made complexer by Dakotan phonological
and analogical shifts.

Bob


From rankin at ku.edu  Wed Mar 21 19:36:53 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 13:36:53 -0600
Subject: Omaha, Jiwere long vs. short vowels.
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.133653.0600.>

>I believe that there are implications/ applications of this for Jiwere~
>Chiwere.  I say this, because on occassions, the elders corrected me on
>pronunciations.  Because of lack of a trained linguistic hearing, I
>never noted such fine articulations.  Several words that I recall being
>corrected on were:
>phaa 	~   [paa (~paa'ge)] = nose of human; head of an animal  vs
>pha	~   [pa	= bitter]
>thaan(~)i ~   [taa'?i  = winter]
>than(~)i   ~   [ta'?i   =  soup/ deer meat soup]

I completely agree with Jimm. I've heard long vs. short vowels in the
recordings of Franklin Murray, Truman Dailey and Lizzie Harper made by
Vantine and by Jill and Louanna. I remember unaccented long vowels too, as
in [greeraa'briN] 'eight'. As in Omaha, they can alternate in paradigms,
i.e., just because a word has length in one of its allomorphs doesn't mean
it will have length in other, inflected or derived, forms, especially if
accent shifts (see John's paradigms of the past couple of days).

I think a good guide to long vowels in Jiwere might be Miner's Winnebago
Dictionary. Winnebago has added "Dorsey's Law" epenthetic vowels in clusters
with sonorants and has moved accent to the right, but otherwise I bet the
long vowels correspond pretty exactly.

In Omaha a guide might be Frida Hahn's doctoral dissertation, done under
Franz Boas. Hahn was a native speaker of German, a language that has a long
vs. short vowel distinction. Her hearing was no doubt more accurate than
most of ours for that feature.

Bob


From Rgraczyk at aol.com  Wed Mar 21 20:15:04 2001
From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 15:15:04 EST
Subject: Siouan Long Vowls
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.151504.EST.>

In a message dated 3/19/01 5:22:07 PM Mountain Standard Time, rankin at ku.edu
writes:


> If memory serves
> (and Randy can correct me on this) Crow has three degrees of length, tho' I
> don't know how this is resolved phonetically. High, low, rising and falling
> pitch are all distinctive.

As far as I can tell Crow has only two degrees of length.  High and low pitch
vowels may be either long or short; falling pitch vowels are only long.

Randy
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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Mar 21 20:44:54 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 13:44:54 -0700
Subject: Siouan Long Vowls
In-Reply-To: <ac.123ca682.27ea65c8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.134454.0700.>

On Wed, 21 Mar 2001 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote:
> > If memory serves
> > (and Randy can correct me on this) Crow has three degrees of length, tho' I
> > don't know how this is resolved phonetically. High, low, rising and falling
> > pitch are all distinctive.

Atsina has three degrees of length, due, if I recall correctly, to loss of
intervocalic laryngeal consonants in a system which already had two
degrees of length.

> As far as I can tell Crow has only two degrees of length.  High and low pitch
> vowels may be either long or short; falling pitch vowels are only long.
>
> Randy

Are there ever cases of two adjacent identical vowels?

JEK


From munro at ucla.edu  Thu Mar 22 02:41:51 2001
From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:41:51 -0800
Subject: a phonetic mystery
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.184151.0800.>

I do not agree that "there is not much perceptible nasality in vowels
following nasal sonorants in Lakhota". I've only worked with two
speakers (representing two generations; born about early '20s and early
'40s), so maybe they were unusual, but both these ladies quite strongly
nasalize(d) vowels after nasals. E.g. the ma- 'I'/'me'/'my' "patient"
prefix has an overwhelmingly nasal vowel. But perhaps others hear things differently.

Pam

The impression I've always gotten from you is that there isn't much
perceptible nasality in vowels following nasal sonorants in Lakota.  I
tend to interpret this as a sort of lexical shift of nasality into
sonorants or sonorant clusters where this was possible.


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Thu Mar 22 02:46:31 2001
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 20:46:31 -0600
Subject: winter=year
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.204631.0600.>

c1804 P. GRANT Sauteux Indians in L. R. Masson ed. Bourgeois de la
Compagnie du Nord-ouest II. (1890) 351:

"In computing time, they reckon by winters.." [referring to the
Saulteaux, a western Ojibway group]

Alan


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Thu Mar 22 02:50:42 2001
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 20:50:42 -0600
Subject: sleeps=days
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.205042.0600.>

c1804 P. GRANT Sauteux Indians in L. R. Masson ed. Bourgeois de la
Compagnie du Nord-ouest II. (1890) 352

"as they compute their years by winters, so they compute distances by
the number of nights which the traveller has to sleep out in making a
journey. They say, likewise, in speaking of an appointment of time, "you
may expect me back in five nights," but never reckon by the number of
days."

Alan


From kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu  Thu Mar 22 10:04:20 2001
From: kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Kathleen Shea)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 04:04:20 -0600
Subject: Omaha-Ponca Long Vowels
Message-ID: <THU.22.MAR.2001.040420.0600.>

Ardis, perhaps Omaha is different from Ponca.  I definitely hear a nasal
vowel in niNiNde 'ripe, done, cooked,' and it's easy (I think, anyway) to
hear a nasal vowel before a stop because of the homo-organic nasal consonant
that occurs epenthetically.  (Compare tade 'wind' and taNde 'ground.')  As
John points out, the initial consonant in the word for 'ripe' was "funny"
*R.  The idea that *R might have been a consonant cluster appeals to me, but
I'm not well-versed enough in Siouan historical linguistics to be able to
say why.  By the way, any of you Dhegihanists, would you say that the word
for 'gravy,' wanide (waniide  --?) in Omaha-Ponca, has the same root as the
word for 'ripe, cooked, done'?  Even if it does, it doesn't have a nasal
vowel in Ponca.

John, you mentioned the word naNzhiN 'hair' in Omaha-Ponca as historically
having an initial "funny" *R.  Did its homonyms naNzhiN 'to stand, standing'
and naNzhiN 'rain' begin with *R, too?

Kathy

----- Original Message -----
From: "Koontz John E" <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: Omaha-Ponca Long Vowels


> On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, ardis eschenberg wrote:
> > Re: Kathy's long vowels:
> > I have gotten niNde for 'butt' and niide for 'ripe,' but I'll try
listening
> > again.  Hmmm...It's hard for me to hear nasalization after a nasal.  For
> > example, with the verb 'to be' bthiN 'I am' sounds very nasal but niN
'you
> > are' sounds just like assimilated nasality.
>
> For what it is worth, niide 'ripe' isn't historically nasal.  It's a
> "funny *R" word, corresponding to Osage cu'ce and Lakota luta 'red'.  I
> think Winnebago has duuc^.  The "funny R" words have a nasal reflex of the
> consonant "funny *R" in OP, but nowhere else.
>
> Note, of course, that what was true historically need not be the case
> today.  There's no reason why this or other n from funny *R words
> shouldn't be nasalized today.  In cases where the n precedes e or u < *o,
> one might not expect this (negi 'mother's brother', neghe 'pot', ne 'lake'
> (said to be Ponca only), nu 'man', 'nu 'potato'), but there are cases of
> *R before i, a, and *u > i, where nasalization could occur.  At the moment
> I'm not recalling the examples (other than 'ripe', of course).  I think
> 'ice' is nughe from *Roogh(e).  One of the various senses of naNzhiN may
> be an a-example - hair'?
>
> What does come to me is that *pr also behaves as *R in nouns in OP, e.g.,
> in nu 'man', and nu 'potato' compare Lakota bloka', blo, and ne 'lake',
> compare Dakota ble.  And the *pr can precede a nasal vowel, as in ni(N?)
> 'fluid, water, major river' compare Dakota mni.
>
> JEK
>
> P.S.  Sorry about typing vowel as vowl in the subject earlier.  See what I
> mean about me and vowel length?
>


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Mar 22 15:32:13 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 09:32:13 -0600
Subject: Siouan Long Vowls
Message-ID: <THU.22.MAR.2001.093213.0600.>

> As far as I can tell Crow has only two degrees of length.  High and
low pitch vowels may be either long or short; falling pitch vowels are only
long.

>Are there ever cases of two adjacent identical vowels?

The cases I was thinking about were those in which a morpheme begins or ends
with a long vowel and the adjacent morpheme has the same vowel. This
threesome may just resolve into one long V however. that's pretty common in
languages with length. Contour pitches requiring long vowels (or other heavy
syllables ending in a sonorant) is another common feature.

My limited listening to Chiwere and Dhegiha has some long vowels involving
falling pitch but others having level pitch. We can't assume that the two
are necessarily concommitant.

I guess it's time to encourage some poor soul to do a dissertation on
accent, length and laryngeals alone. :-)

Bob


From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU  Thu Mar 22 15:45:57 2001
From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:45:57 -0700
Subject: a phonetic mystery
In-Reply-To: <3AB9666E.CE92842D@ucla.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.22.MAR.2001.084557.0700.>

This is precisely why I think we've been sloppy about this phenomenon.  I
agree that the vowel in the ma- prefix is strongly nasalized, as is the
prefix in mani 'to walk'. The position of that vowel is also considerably
higher -- more schwah-like -- than the oral equivalent.   But the -na in
wana 'now' is much less obviously nasalized most of the  time, and the
position is low central, more like the stereotyical "a as in  father" than
like a schwah.  Most speakers deny any difference when I ask  them about
it, but their practice belies their intuitions.  Another set  would be the
nasal u in nupa 'two', which is so strongly nasalized that  many people
are tempted to write numpa until we train that out of them, in  contrast
with nuwaN 'to swim' or manu 'to steal', where the "u" is higher, tenser,
backer,  and far  less strongly nasalized, and no one every tries to write
a nasal consonant after the "u".  I don't think anyone has ever
suggested that manupi 'they steal' should be written manumpi.
But I do not  completely trust my own  ears at this point, and I am not
sure how much consistency there is from  speaker to speaker or place to
place, though I am convinced that any given  speaker is quite consistent
about which pronunciation goes with which word.  If there are
contradictory data out there, I'd like to hear about them.

David

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
Campus Box 295
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Pamela Munro wrote:

> I do not agree that "there is not much perceptible nasality in vowels
> following nasal sonorants in Lakhota". I've only worked with two
> speakers (representing two generations; born about early '20s and early
> '40s), so maybe they were unusual, but both these ladies quite strongly
> nasalize(d) vowels after nasals. E.g. the ma- 'I'/'me'/'my' "patient"
> prefix has an overwhelmingly nasal vowel. But perhaps others hear things differently.
>
> Pam
>
> The impression I've always gotten from you is that there isn't much
> perceptible nasality in vowels following nasal sonorants in Lakota.  I
> tend to interpret this as a sort of lexical shift of nasality into
> sonorants or sonorant clusters where this was possible.
>


From munro at ucla.edu  Thu Mar 22 16:14:37 2001
From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:14:37 -0800
Subject: a phonetic mystery
Message-ID: <THU.22.MAR.2001.081437.0800.>

All of David's impressionistic judgments sound correct to me (thus,
John, it's not the case that there's no nasalization after nasals!).
Maybe there is a contrast, as he seems to suggest, but I believe that if
someone was interested in pursuing this exhaustively stress, what
consonant follows, and syllable position within the word the
post-nasal-C vowel would combine to determine which of these variants we
hear. I do not believe there's a phonemic contrast. But if you guys
prove me wrong, great!

Pam

from David:
This is precisely why I think we've been sloppy about this phenomenon.  I
agree that the vowel in the ma- prefix is strongly nasalized, as is the
prefix in mani 'to walk'. The position of that vowel is also considerably
higher -- more schwah-like -- than the oral equivalent.   But the -na in
wana 'now' is much less obviously nasalized most of the  time, and the
position is low central, more like the stereotyical "a as in  father" than
like a schwah.  Most speakers deny any difference when I ask  them about
it, but their practice belies their intuitions.  Another set  would be the
nasal u in nupa 'two', which is so strongly nasalized that  many people
are tempted to write numpa until we train that out of them, in  contrast
with nuwaN 'to swim' or manu 'to steal', where the "u" is higher, tenser,
backer,  and far  less strongly nasalized, and no one every tries to write
a nasal consonant after the "u".  I don't think anyone has ever
suggested that manupi 'they steal' should be written manumpi.
But I do not  completely trust my own  ears at this point, and I am not
sure how much consistency there is from  speaker to speaker or place to
place, though I am convinced that any given  speaker is quite consistent
about which pronunciation goes with which word.  If there are
contradictory data out there, I'd like to hear about them.

David


From munro at ucla.edu  Thu Mar 22 16:21:18 2001
From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:21:18 -0800
Subject: a phonetic mystery
Message-ID: <THU.22.MAR.2001.082118.0800.>

Sorry; what I wrote got garbled. I should have said:

All of David's impressionistic judgments sound correct to me (thus,
John, it's not the case that there's no nasalization after nasals!).
Maybe there is a contrast, as David seems to suggest, but I believe that
if someone was interested in pursuing this exhaustively stress, what
consonant follows the post-nasal-C vowel, and syllable position within
the word would combine to determine which of these variants we
hear. I do not believe there's a phonemic contrast. But if you guys
prove me wrong, great!

ah the joys of cut-and-paste

Pam


From Rgraczyk at aol.com  Thu Mar 22 16:54:15 2001
From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 11:54:15 EST
Subject: Siouan Long Vowls
Message-ID: <THU.22.MAR.2001.115415.EST.>

In a message dated 3/21/01 1:46:34 PM Mountain Standard Time,
John.Koontz at colorado.edu writes:


> > As far as I can tell Crow has only two degrees of length.  High and low
> pitch
> > vowels may be either long or short; falling pitch vowels are only long.
> >
> > Randy
>
> Are there ever cases of two adjacent identical vowels?
>
> JEK
>
>

Yes, you do have cases of adjacent identical vowels.  With prefixes like baa-
'indefinite', the vowels do not merge, but are separated by a slight catch in
the voice, not quite a glottal stop: e.g., baaa'akiia 'vision', or
baaa'pchisuua 'something spread, peanut butter or jam'.

With suffixes, sequences of identical vowels merge into one long vowel: eg,
du'usaa 'lay down' + -ak 'same subject' --> du'usaak.

Randy
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From mosind at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 22 18:17:07 2001
From: mosind at yahoo.com (Wablenica)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 21:17:07 +0300
Subject: Nights and Time
Message-ID: <THU.22.MAR.2001.211707.0300.>

I wonder  what is the etymology of root haN- "night", suffix -haN "time" and
continuative/imperfective enclitic haN~he~hiN in Dakotan. Are these the one
and the same morpheme, do they all originate from haN' "for a tall object to
be located" ?
Examples:
haNhe'pi (L.) / haNye'tu (D.) night
haNcho'kayan - midnight
haNblA' (haNwa'ble)- to fast and dream or attain vision

he'haN, hehaN'l - at that time
hehaN'taNhaN - from that time on; therefore
hetaNhaN - from that place/time

Thank you.
Connie.


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu Mar 22 19:48:54 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 12:48:54 -0700
Subject: a phonetic mystery
In-Reply-To: <3ABA24EC.769FE1AF@ucla.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.22.MAR.2001.124854.0700.>

On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Pamela Munro wrote:
> All of David's impressionistic judgments sound correct to me (thus,
> John, it's not the case that there's no nasalization after nasals!).

I think I should say that probably this is my (incorrectly) simplified
version of something David told me (or a class I was in), and so should
not be flatly attributed to David in the terms I used as I so blythely
did.  Or to put it frankly, I clearly misquoted David on this one.

I remember that Pat Shaw presented a paper at, I think, the second Siouan
& Caddoan Conference which pointed out among other things that there were
a number of cross-dialect correspondences in Dakotan that belied the
simple idea that Santee has d/_V[or] : n/_V[nas], Teton ditto with l vs.
n, and Assiniboine n before both.

I don't recall the details at the moment, though one problematic case is
the diminutive.  I've also noted that some Dakotan dialects nasalize final
i in some enclitics (like =xti(n)) and some don't.  This variability
occurs across Siouan generally, for that matter, when the relevant
morphemes are shared.


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Mar 22 22:04:37 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 16:04:37 -0600
Subject: a phonetic mystery
Message-ID: <THU.22.MAR.2001.160437.0600.>

>I do not believe there's a phonemic contrast. But if you guys
>prove me wrong, great.

David: Didn't you once point out a minimal pair in /gmuka/ vs. /gmuNka/? One
is 'trap' and the other I can't recall.  Or am I just mixed up as usual?

Bob


From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU  Thu Mar 22 22:46:50 2001
From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 15:46:50 -0700
Subject: a phonetic mystery
In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A4413FF@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.22.MAR.2001.154650.0700.>

Yes, Bob, I found several minimal pairs in Eli's speech, but I later found
out that he had learned some of his Lakhota from a Nakoda speaker, and
apparently had an idiosyncratic distribution based on that person's
speech -- e.g. he had two different words for one of the 'cut' verbs,
with slightly different meanings, one with and one without a naslized
vowel -- but everyone else thought they were the same word.  So I'm not
relying on those data any more --  which is why I said we would have to
test several different speakers.
	Some of those data made it into the Sketch in the Handbook, p.
445a: maNka 'I sit' vs. maka 'skunk'; gmuNza 'slimy' vs. gmuza 'closed, as
the fist'; niNyaN 'cause to live' vs. niya 'to breathe'.  But I could
never get anyone except Eli to produce these contrasts.
	I would be interested in the results if anyone else on the list
has a way to check those pairs with a speaker.

	David

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
Campus Box 295
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote:

>
> >I do not believe there's a phonemic contrast. But if you guys
> >prove me wrong, great.
>
> David: Didn't you once point out a minimal pair in /gmuka/ vs. /gmuNka/? One
> is 'trap' and the other I can't recall.  Or am I just mixed up as usual?
>
> Bob
>


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Mar 23 00:36:35 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 17:36:35 -0700
Subject: Nights and Time
In-Reply-To: <004b01c0b2fc$832ad920$b663bcd4@wablenica>
Message-ID: <THU.22.MAR.2001.173635.0700.>

On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Wablenica wrote:

> I wonder  what is the etymology of root haN- "night", suffix -haN "time" and
> continuative/imperfective enclitic haN~he~hiN in Dakotan. Are these the one
> and the same morpheme, do they all originate from haN' "for a tall object to
> be located" ?
> Examples:
> haNhe'pi (L.) / haNye'tu (D.) night
> haNcho'kayan - midnight

I think that the combining stem here is haN- 'night'.  But it looks like
the independent stem is either haNh(A) (as in haNhe=pi), or haNy(A) as in
haNye=tu.  The first alternative looks like an an ablauting epenthetic a
with a C-final stem haNh-. There is a real problem here with =pi, however,
as I think this always conditions the a-grade, right?  This looks a
nominalizing =pi, perhaps, as in thi=pi, but I've never heard that this
behaved any different from the pluralizing =pi.  In fact, I've always
assumed they were the same, though I don't necessarily understand the
connection.  So maybe haNhepi is haN + he + =pi with he being some
morpheme that doesn't ablaut.

For comparison with haNyetu consider on the "extension" wiN- vs. wiNyaN
(with -yA nasalized by iN?), iN- ~ iNyaN, and he- ~ heya.  This sort of
looks like an abluating "epenthetic" a attached to a monosyllable and
separated from it by an epenthetic y.  For the -e=tu part of the second
alternative consider aNpe=tu 'day'.

In OP haN (invariant) is 'night', but there is one old compound
haNhewac^hi 'night dance', that might suggest *haNhe, which is why I
wonder about the haNhepi alternant in Dakotan.  Still the -e=pi in Dakota
is a bit of a problem for this comparison.  Does anyone know of another
-he element in temporal adverbs, etc.?

> haNblA' (haNwa'ble)- to fast and dream or attain vision

This stem presumably incorporates haN- 'night' and occurs pretty
consistantly across at least Mississippi Valley Siouan.

> he'haN, hehaN'l - at that time
> hehaN'taNhaN - from that time on; therefore
> hetaNhaN - from that place/time

In these elements I think =haN is something else; basically a sort of
postposition.  It corresponds to Omaha-Ponca =thaN, which tends to be
associated with extents, e.g., e=di=thaN and e=tta=thaN 'from there' (in
various senses).  The correspondence of OP aspirated t to Da h is regular.
The classic example is OP (a)thi 'arrive here' vs. Da (a)hi 'arrive here'.
Another example is OP (wa)c^hi vs. Da (Santee?) hu, but I can't gloss this
for fear of being banned in Switzerland.

=haNl is from probably from =haN=t(u), a sort of reversal of the *tu=thaN
underlying OP =di=thaN.  =taNhaN might be a direct match for OP =tta=thaN.
The tta is probably from *-k-ta-, as I think I mentioned recently.  So
*-k-ta=thaN => OP =tta=thaN, and just *-ta-thaN => Da -ta-haN with =taNhaN
involving nasalization across h, perhaps.  -haNtahaN looks like a piling
up of =haN + =tahaN.

JEK


From FurbeeL at missouri.edu  Fri Mar 23 16:36:15 2001
From: FurbeeL at missouri.edu (Louanna Furbee)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 10:36:15 -0600
Subject: a phonetic mystery
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0103221534160.6628-100000@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.MAR.2001.103615.0600.>

With respect to Jimm's comment about Chiwere phaa ~   [paa (~paa'ge)]
= nose of human; head of an animal  vs pha~   [pa	= bitter]
and thaan(~)i ~   [taa'?i  = winter] vs. than(~)i   ~   [ta'?i   =
soup/ deer meat soup]:  I was admonished by Bob to look out for
length at the start of the field work.  Although I listened long and
hard, heard some differences in vowel length in the course of
interviewing, and discussed candidate pairs often with Jill, Lori,
and Dave, in the end I found no systematic differences.  That is not
to say that the contrasts might not have been there, but it is
possible that we just didn't have the skill to find them, and it is
also possible that the speakers that remained, or their models before
them,  had lost the distinction. There is without a doubt a stress
distinction associated with number of moras in some lexical items (it
is one of the distinguishing features between the two dialects), and
length is probably associated with that stress, but length alone as a
phonemic distinction, I cannot claim for Chiwere.  Length is
sufficiently pervasive in the family that I cannot but think that it
existed in Chiwere, but I can't say with certainty that it existed at
the time that I studied the language.  Louanna
--
Prof. N. Louanna Furbee
Department of Anthropology
107 Swallow Hall
University of Missouri
Columbia, MO  65211 USA
Telephones: 573/882-9408 (office)
	   573/882-4731 (department)
	   573/446-0932 (home)
	   573/884-5450 (fax)
E-mail:  FurbeeL at missouri.edu


From BARudes at aol.com  Fri Mar 23 21:50:04 2001
From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 16:50:04 EST
Subject: reduplication in Siouan languages
Message-ID: <FRI.23.MAR.2001.165004.EST.>

On reduplication, Catawba also exhibits reduplication (but only of verb 
roots).  It is used to express continued or sustained action in space or 
time, as well as intensification and distribution of the action.  Examples 
are: w?aN?hire: ?one jumps?, waN?w?aN?hire: ?one hops, one keeps on 
jumping?; b?:?hire: ?it sparks, flashes, shoots (of a gun)?, bu:?b?u:?nire: 
?it sparkles?; k?a:?hire: ?one hits it?, ka:?k?a:?hire: ?one beats it, one 
strikes it repeatedly?.
 
On the etymology of the root haN- ?night?, the Catawba word for night 
(w?ic^a:w) is unrelated, but there is a verb h?aNnapire: ?one passes the 
night, one spends the night? which probably contains a cognate.
 
On the issue of winter used in counting years, all of the Northern Iroquoian 
languages use the root for winter when stating how many years old someone or 
something is.  In addition, in Tuscarora, the root for winter (Proto-Northern 
Iroquoian *-ohsr-) evolved into the regular word for year, and a new word for 
winter was created.
 
On the subject of the origin of /mn/ clusters, the Catawba cognate to La 
yamni ?three? is n?:mina. The /i/ in the word may be epenthetic, since /i/ 
occurs elsewhere in the language to break up consonant clusters. (Catawba 
does not exhibit cognates for lake, water, flat or smell).  The Catawba form 
suggests that, at least in pre-Proto-Siouan, the word had an *mn cluster.
 
Blair 

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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Mar 23 22:46:09 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 15:46:09 -0700
Subject: reduplication in Siouan languages
In-Reply-To: <b6.12fdb825.27ed1f0c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.MAR.2001.154609.0700.>

On Fri, 23 Mar 2001 BARudes at aol.com wrote:

> On reduplication, Catawba also exhibits reduplication (but only of verb
> roots).  It is used to express continued or sustained action in space or
> time, as well as intensification and distribution of the action.  Examples
> are: w???aN?hire: ???one jumps???, ...

Blair, I just wanted to warn you that in my mailer your Catawba comes out
in a pretty fair approximation of Cree Syllabics, or, possibly, electrical
circuit diagrams.  It's probably best to stick with ASCII or at least
standard fonts in mail to the list.

John Koontz


From BARudes at aol.com  Sat Mar 24 16:23:00 2001
From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 11:23:00 EST
Subject: reduplication in Siouan languages
Message-ID: <SAT.24.MAR.2001.112300.EST.>

The funny looking characters actually represent an apostrophe.  My keyboard
is set for English International, rather than English U.S.  I keep forgetting
that AOL does weird things to the apostrophe.  I will try to remember to
switch keyboards for email.

Blair
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From Zylogy at aol.com  Sat Mar 24 17:26:18 2001
From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 12:26:18 EST
Subject: reduplication in Siouan languages
Message-ID: <SAT.24.MAR.2001.122618.EST.>

Thanks all for the (still incoming) responses, both on- and off-line.  Does
anyone know comparable information for Caddoan langs? Iroquoian? Making no
covert claims of relationship here other than possibly areal. Will post a
summary when enough information is in.

Sincerely,
Jess Tauber
zylogy at aol.com
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From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Mar 25 15:30:57 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 09:30:57 -0600
Subject: Funny looking characters.
Message-ID: <SUN.25.MAR.2001.093057.0600.>

-----Original Message-----
From: BARudes at aol.com
>The funny looking characters actually represent an apostrophe.  My
>keyboard is set for English International, rather than English U.S.  I
>keep forgetting that AOL does weird things to the apostrophe.  I will try
>to remember to switch keyboards for email.

I have a naive question for John and other computer whizzes. If each of us
on the list set our email programs to use a particular font (say, Siouan
SILDoulos or Iroquoian-ABC or whatever we chose as a group), would it enable
each of us to use "real" nasal vowels, accented chanacters, sibilants with
haceks, etc. in our postings to the list, or does this depend on servers,
ISP's, etc.?

Most of us use email programs that allow us to set the default font for
receiving and sending mail. Maybe it would be possible to do away with "net
Siouan".

Bob


From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Mar 25 16:07:35 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 10:07:35 -0600
Subject: Ablaut paper.
Message-ID: <SUN.25.MAR.2001.100735.0600.>

To those who asked for a copy of the (Mississippi Valley Siouan) Ablaut
paper from the Albuquerque Siouan/Caddoan conference: I discovered after
volunteering it that it is in an old Word Star (MSDOS) file rather than a
Word-for-Windows file. Converting it to the 21st century will take some
time, and in the meantime I'll just mail out hard copies of it.

Bob


From BARudes at aol.com  Sun Mar 25 16:53:10 2001
From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 11:53:10 EST
Subject: reduplication in Siouan languages
Message-ID: <SUN.25.MAR.2001.115310.EST.>

I do not know about the Caddoan languages, but the Iroquoian languages make
no use of reduplication whatsoever.

Blair
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From Zylogy at aol.com  Sun Mar 25 17:44:11 2001
From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 12:44:11 EST
Subject: reduplication in Siouan languages
Message-ID: <SUN.25.MAR.2001.124411.EST.>

That Iroquoian makes no grammatical use of reduplication seemed evident from
the grammars and dictionaries I've seen. I also didn't get the impression,
from Mithun's article on Iroquoian expressives, that these undergo
reduplication either, merely simple full-stress repetition (which seems to be
rather common in polysynthetic languages when they have any expressive forms
at all outside the verb inventory).

As there appears to be an implicational hierarchy extending from the point of
lexicalization of expressive/ideophonic forms all the way to grammatical
elements with regard to the how's, where's, etc. of reduplication, it will be
interesting to see just how much of this correlates with typological factors
that on the face of it would seem to have no logical connection- I've already
noted a number linking expressives.
Much may fall under the heading of "holistic typology". Over time one would
then expect to see increasing context-sensitivity as reduplicative
constructions themselves become frozen, and attrition works its magic.

Siouan, under this model, would be far along the way of losing both
expressives (as such) and reduplication.

Jess Tauber
zylogy at aol.com
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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Mar 25 22:41:50 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 15:41:50 -0700
Subject: reduplication in Siouan languages
In-Reply-To: <3e.93ded5c.27ee23e4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.25.MAR.2001.154150.0700.>

On Sat, 24 Mar 2001 BARudes at aol.com wrote:

> The funny looking characters actually represent an apostrophe.

OK.  It looks like one gets a sequence of, say, 4 or 5 characters per
apostrophe, depending on the transmission path and viewer.  The sequence
differs depending on whether the apostrophe is opening or closing.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Mar 25 23:11:48 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 16:11:48 -0700
Subject: Improved e-Mail Fonts (was RE: Funny looking characters)
In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A44140B@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.25.MAR.2001.161148.0700.>

On Sun, 25 Mar 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> I have a naive question for John and other computer whizzes. If each of us
> on the list set our email programs to use a particular font (say, Siouan
> SILDoulos or Iroquoian-ABC or whatever we chose as a group), would it enable
> each of us to use "real" nasal vowels, accented chanacters, sibilants with
> haceks, etc. in our postings to the list, or does this depend on servers,
> ISP's, etc.?

In principle yes, but I think most mail is still transferred using SMTP
(Simple Mail Transfer Protocol) programs, and these might allow for
traslation of characters sets (outside the ASCCI range or even the 96
printable characters within ASCII range).  This used to be a standard
difficulty with email.  I'm not sure if it is still true.  I don't hear
people talking about it, so perhaps it isn't.

Whether or not the transfer mechanism is not a problem, there would be a
problem with the viewing tool, the mail program.  I suspect that most
Windows-based mail programs could handle the matter as Bob suggests, but
this would be less feasible with Unix-based mailers, because the fonts in
question are not available in Unix-supported font formats.  There are also
two other environments to consider.  One is the basic telnet window
environment, which, by a perhaps curious odd turn of events, is what I am
using.  The other is that of individuals viewing the archives as Web files
(which works out to be Windows with MSIE and Netscape - not problems) and
Netscape (etc?) under Unix).  I see I have overlooked Mac environments,
but I think, barring the necessrity for translating the TrueType fonts
into Mac format, they are pretty much a case with Windows users in this
respect.

If we assume no transfer protocol problems, then it all turns on whether
we could agree on a font and agree to use systems and mailers that can
handle that font.

I think a certain amount of discussion on the subject might be
appropriate, but if the general trend seems to be to stick with the status
quo, I think we should not overdo it, though obviously this is an issue
that can be raised fairly from time to time.

Incidentally, I had been hoping to be able to distribute the "Standard"
Siouan fonts in a format usable with Web pages soon, but this has had to
be postponed for a while for personal reasons.

JEK


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Sun Mar 25 23:35:05 2001
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 17:35:05 -0600
Subject: Improved e-Mail Fonts
Message-ID: <SUN.25.MAR.2001.173505.0600.>

In the long run, it would be best to use fonts that represent a subset
of Unicode. (In the near term, that'll be difficult.) As a very small
example in HTML, see my mock-up of an entry ASSINIBOINE for the OED:

http://www.d.umn.edu/~ahartley/slips_to_entry.html

One version uses GIF files for phonetic and Greek characters, and the
other is for Unicode-capable browsers and fonts (Netscape 4.73 and 6,
and Arial Unicode MS and Lucida Sans Unicode work well).

Alan


From mosind at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 26 03:24:16 2001
From: mosind at yahoo.com (Wablenica)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 07:24:16 +0400
Subject: Improved e-Mail Fonts
Message-ID: <MON.26.MAR.2001.072416.0400.>

One way out for non-ANSI character could be attaching the Rich Text Format
files that use the Unicode set. The standard Microsoft TrueType fonts for US
version lack most haceks and ogoneks but the Pan-Euro Win9x versions have a
support for them. IE 5 browser claims to install Multilanguage support when
needed; one may also download the fonts for Multilanguage support from the
net.
One of the best free online Unicode TTF fonts I've seen is TITUS Cyberbit
Basic ( http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/unicode/tituut.asp  ) that has
all the Unicode IPA characters, all the non-spacing diacritics, and lots of
"user-defined" combinations (such as nasalized vowels with breves). Plus
full Greek, Hebrew, Devanagari, Arabic and what have you in - Unicode 2.0
standard.

Connie.


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue Mar 27 16:39:09 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 09:39:09 -0700
Subject: reduplication in Siouan languages (fwd)
Message-ID: <TUE.27.MAR.2001.093909.0700.>

Here is a comment from Pat Shaw on Stoney reduplication, posted with her
permission.  I'm not sure if the Garland publication of her dissertation
is still in print, but the dissertation should be available from [the
company formerly known as UMI], and I would hope the book would be widely
available in libraries.  JEK

The original query - available in the archives at

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A1=ind0103&L=siouan#33

was from: Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 1906 06:16:22 -0800
From: Patricia A. Shaw <shawpa at interchange.ubc.ca>
To: Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
Cc: Kathleen Shea <kdshea at falcon.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: reduplication in Siouan languages

Thanks, Kathy, for having forwarded this to me.

And, Hi John.

The pattern in Stoney is documented in the final chapter of my thesis/book
(1980. Garland Press, NY). To my knowledge, it is unique within in the
Dakota branch, although I would be very interested indeed if anything like
it were to be found elsewhere. First, it applies to the rightmost edge of
the verb domain, including a number (but not all) of the final
suffixes/enclitics in its purview. Other patterns, to my knowledge,
standardly operate on the right Root edge. Also, the semantics of the
Stoney pattern are something that I haven't seen in Dakotan Redup
elsewhere, expressing an 'adversative' meaning, e.g.

Non-reduplicated: he sold my car.
Reduplicated: he went and sold my car on me.

I don't know if it occurs in the more northern Stoney dialects or in any
of the Assiniboine dialects, or not, as I didn't have the opportunity to
work there. Perhaps Ray and Doug checked it out in their survey. Stoney of
course has the familiar plural/iterative/distributive Root-final pattern
as well. My Chapter 6 as a whole deals with comparative aspects of
reduplication in the Lakota, Manitoba Sioux Valley Dakota, and (southern)
Stoney dialects. I hope it will be helpful to you.

I will certainly be interested in the results of your research on this.
Good luck with it.

Best regards,
Pat


Dr. Patricia A. Shaw
Director, First Nations Languages Program
Buchanan E256
Faculty of Arts, UBC
Phone:  (604) 822-2512

Department of Linguistics
Buchanan E270 - 1866 Main Mall, UBC
Vancouver, B.C.  V6T 1Z1
Canada

Phone:  (604) 822-6481
Fax:    (604) 822-9687
e-mail: shawpa at interchange.ubc.ca


From Zylogy at aol.com  Tue Mar 27 18:49:25 2001
From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 13:49:25 EST
Subject: reduplication in Siouan languages (fwd)
Message-ID: <TUE.27.MAR.2001.134925.EST.>

The Stoney pattern, then, is similar in spirit to that of the Northern
Interior Salishan languages, which appear to have switched from an ancestral
root-based pattern to one trailing off to the right flank including suffixed
materials, following shift from original root-stress system. Areally
interesting, if there may have been intervening languages with similar
stories- anyone know of the Algonkian in between? Kutenay doesn't have any
active reduplicative contructions (second hand p.c. from Larry Morgan) as far
as I can tell. Thanks!

Best regards,
Jess Tauber
zylogy at aol.com
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From egooding at iupui.edu  Wed Mar 28 00:02:29 2001
From: egooding at iupui.edu (Erik D. Gooding)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 19:02:29 -0500
Subject: reduplication in Siouan languages (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <15.11c20fb5.27f23ab5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.MAR.2001.190229.0500.>

When I was working on Stoney I met Corrie Erdman who was working at Alexis, one
of the two "northern" dialects of Stoney that were mentioned. Her dissertation
is available via UMI, its called "A Brief Summary of Stoney Grammar and a Study
of the Innovative Stress Patterns--Penultimate, with Secondary Stress in
Alternating Patterns--in Alexis Stoney.

Erik



At 01:49 PM 03/27/2001 -0500, Zylogy at aol.com wrote:
>
> The Stoney pattern, then, is similar in spirit to that of the Northern
> Interior Salishan languages, which appear to have switched from an ancestral
> root-based pattern to one trailing off to the right flank including suffixed
> materials, following shift from original root-stress system. Areally
> interesting, if there may have been intervening languages with similar
> stories- anyone know of the Algonkian in between? Kutenay doesn't have any
> active reduplicative contructions (second hand p.c. from Larry Morgan) as far
>
> as I can tell. Thanks!
>
> Best regards,
> Jess Tauber
> zylogy at aol.com


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Mar 28 07:43:20 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 00:43:20 -0700
Subject: Sleeps and Winters
In-Reply-To: <183A4D11066@soas.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.28.MAR.2001.004320.0700.>

On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Bruce Ingham wrote:
> That's very interesting about  chaN.  I'd always thought it had something to
> do with chaN(a)s^na 'as many times as, when, whenever'.  Is the
> chaN in chaN (a) s^na also from the 'sleep' word.

I looked further, but all that I could find were references in Buechel, p.
115, to c[h]aN ~ c[^h]aN'na ~ c[^h]a'na "They follow tohaNl, etc., and the
dependent part of the sentence.  When the word referring to the indefinite
time [sic], "whenever," it has the coordinate meaning "then"."

I think this has been mangled somehow and is supposed to mean that if
tohaNl has indefinite reference then c^haN has the coordinate sense, i.e.,
"whenever ..., then ..."

And, same page, c[^h]a'na, "when, at such time as.  But the word always
starts the sentence, which may begin [sic] with tuwa, tohaN, tuktel, etc.,
or any word.  The "na" of cana may be left ot, or hehaNl added."

I have no idea what Buechel is saying here.  There is an example, which
doesn't elucidate matters much for me:

Na  haNhepi, c^ha[N]na  hehaNl     inaz^iN yapi
And at night when[ever] there/then they raised him up

The gloss here is my own.  I suppose this is a biblical reference.

For s^na, p. 466, I found "again and again, continually ... c[^h]aN s^na
yaNka Always there, here, now"

This reminds me of the habitual use of Dhegiha s^na (modern OP na), and
seems to refer to the actual cosntruction Bruce is mentioning.

Knowing Bruce, I'm pretty sure he's considered all these examples already,
and, I'd have to say I'm hoping he can elucidate them, as they get into
areas of grammar where I have no knowledge of the Omaha-Ponca equivalents,
if any (???), and Buechel's discussion seems particularly defective.

I think this probably doesn't have to do with c^haN cf. OP z^aN 'sleep',
but it seems interesting none the less.

-------

OK, I think I see why I never noticed this in Omaha-Ponca before.  I think
this is an example from Dorsey:

1890:469.4-5

1 ... 'TE*-MA T''E*WA'/AI* HNAN*DI.
2 ... / THE BUFFALOES / WERE KILLED / WHENEVER. /

1 +'TE'/E*ZE 'PASI* '/A$N MAN*DE'2 KE'2 UBA*XA$N 'KI'2, MAN*DE'2-'KA$N*
 I*'HI$N-HNA$N*I.  ...
2 +BUFFALO-TONGUE / TIP / THE (OB.) / BOW / THE / PUSHED INTO / WHEN, /
 BOW-STRING / THEY USED TO CARRY BY MEANS OF. ....

I make this:

Tte'=     ma          t?e'=wadha=      i=     hnaN=    di
buffaloes the (group) they killed them PLURAL HABITUAL at

ttedhe'ze       ppasi'=dhaN maN'de=khe uba'ghaN=                kki
buffalo tongue  tip    the  bow    the they pushed it into them when/if

maN'dekkaN i'?iN=                 hnaN=    i
bowstring  they carried them with HABITUAL PLURAL

I tend to read this as Dorsey glosses it, with a double 'when':

When(ever) they killed the buffalo, when they thrust the tip of the bow
into the tongues, they would carry them with the bowstring.

[I think this must mean that the unstrung bow is used as an awl to pierce
the tongues and thread the bowstring through?]

Anyway, it could also be glossed:

When(ever) they killed the buffalo, then they thrust the tip of the bow
into the tongues, (and) they would carry them with the bowstring.

It's interesting that this involves the s^na HABITUAL morpheme, in its
somewhat more developed form hnaN.  It eventually becomes naN.  The first
"when' is a locative postposition, while the second, the 'then' is =kki,
which acts to form when and conditional clauses.  I'm rally not used to
thinking of it as 'then'!

I think I'll leave it at that for now!

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Mar 28 08:01:27 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 01:01:27 -0700
Subject: Omaha-Ponca Long Vowels
In-Reply-To: <007b01c0b2b7$77a5fca0$7409ed81@9afl3>
Message-ID: <WED.28.MAR.2001.010127.0700.>

On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Kathleen Shea wrote:
> Ardis, perhaps Omaha is different from Ponca.  I definitely hear a
> nasal vowel in niNiNde 'ripe, done, cooked,' and it's easy (I think,
> anyway) to hear a nasal vowel before a stop because of the
> homo-organic nasal consonant that occurs epenthetically.  ... By the
> way, any of you Dhegihanists, would you say that the word for 'gravy,'
> wanide (waniide --?) in Omaha-Ponca, has the same root as the word for
> 'ripe, cooked, done'?  Even if it does, it doesn't have a nasal vowel
> in Ponca.

I would have said so, but the difference in nasality is an interesting
conundrum.  I do think that there is a tendency of n < *R to nasalize the
following vowel.

> John, you mentioned the word naNzhiN 'hair' in Omaha-Ponca as historically
> having an initial "funny" *R.  Did its homonyms naNzhiN 'to stand, standing'
> and naNzhiN 'rain' begin with *R, too?

I'm not sure about 'hair'.  Osage has nizhu 'hair' (per LaFlesche) and
nizhiu 'rain', both presumably ni[n]z^u, and noNzhiN 'stand', presumably
naNz^iN.  It would seem I was wrong in recalling 'hair' as a funny *R
word.  Ioway-Otoe has nayiN 'stand', and niyu 'rain'.  I don't see a match
for 'hair'.  Dakotan has naz^iN 'stand', and maghaz^u 'to rain', in which
the final -z^u matches the -z^u of Osage and the -yu of IO.  It is OP that
has the irregular developments in ''rain' and 'hair'.  I don't see a match
for 'hair' in Dakotan either.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Mar 28 08:38:25 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 01:38:25 -0700
Subject: More on Long Vowels
In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A4413E2@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.28.MAR.2001.013825.0700.>

On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> > I have the impression
> >that some of these stems have initial stress when the plural/proximate
> >marker is missing, e.g., ga'ghe, daN'be, etc.  But dhathe'?

Catherine:

> I certainly always hear(d) first syllable accent in these.  But then I
> nearly always marked initial accent with the plural/proximate too -- lots of
> ga'gha=i=the etc. in my texts.  As John knows I sometimes hear(d) accent
> on a different syllable than where he marks it, perhaps because I expected
> stress instead of pitch accent...

Bob:

> I do too. But gaaghe always has a long vowel for me (that's in Kaw, of
> course).  It's conjugated ppaaghe, $kaaghe, gaaghabe, oNgaaghabe, with
> accent on the long V throughout. doNbe 'see' also has initial accent
> throughout the 1st, 2nd, 3rd person. I am not so sure about 'chew, eat'. I
> am pretty sure though that it is conjugated bl?che, hn?che, yach?be, but I
> am uncertain of the vowel length here. I think the ? is long in the 1st and
> 2nd person forms.

Dorsey has ppa'ghe 'I do', s^ka'ghe 'you do', and ga'ghe 'to make', and,
of course, if there's a prefixed inflectional string, that pulls accent
onto the first syllable in any event (or further forward, depending on the
number of syllables).  And he has lots of ga'gha=ga (male imperative) and
some ga'gha=a (female imperative).  Also once ga'gha=i=ga (male plural
imperative), and once each ga'gha=bi=ama 'they say he made' and
ga'gha=bi=kki 'if he made'. However, he has many instances of
gagha'=bi-ama, gagha'=bi=the, gagha'=bi=egaN, gagha'=i=ga.

I don't know quite what to make of this.  Perhaps he heard
ga<H>gha<L>bi<L>a<L>mA with a fall from ga<H> to gha<L> so that gha<L>
appeared to be the point of stress.  It may even have been louder or at
least more salient in some sense, from the English speaker's point of view
I can't think of a way to interpret this in terms of the influence of
length.

With 'see' it's ttaN'be 'I see', s^taN'be 'you see', daN'be, daN'ba=i 'he
sees'.  He has lots of both daN'ba=bi=ama and daNba'=bi=ama, daN'ba=ga and
daNba'=ga.  What's really interesting is that he has a lot of aN'daNbe 'to
see me' and dhi'daNbe 'to see you' in subordinate positions, and even
aN'daNba=i 'they see me'.  But the "expected" aNdaN'be and dhidaN'be also
occur.

In my own notes I don't seem to have anything useful on interpreting
these.  (Lots of 'see', but that now has an extra syllable, and I elicited
next to no quotatives or subordinate clauses of the right kind.)

WHat I do notice about the stems that have initial stress in the third
person (unprefixed) forms is that they are more or less the cognates of
(or in some other way the behavioral analogs of) Dakotan CVC verb roots.
They differ from roots that have initial stress because of syncopating b-
'I' or s^ 'you' or g- SUUS prefixes, because I think we all hear these as
finally stressed (well, second syllable stressed) in third persons.  For
example, I can't think, of hand, of a dh-stem that behaves like gaghe or
daNbe in terms of stress.  Even examples like dhathe 'eat' that may not be
instrumental stems seem to treat dha as a "light" syllable.

Does anyone hear length in an analog of gaghe' 'to cry'?

This seems to suggest that CVC stems are CVVC stems, at least mostly.

In skimming my fieldnotes I noticed one place where in desperation I had
written ppaa'dhiN for 'Pawnee'.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Mar 28 08:59:18 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 01:59:18 -0700
Subject: Siouan Long Vowls
In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A4413E5@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.28.MAR.2001.015918.0700.>

On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> I think we are ignoring some basic tenets of phonology. It would suffice
> even if all long vowels were traceable to polymorphemic sequences. It isn't
> legitimate to consider the morphological environments in determining what is
> distinctive in the phonology. For example, many instances of 'locative a-
> prefix' are derivational and have little or no semantic content.

But if all long vowels were also accented, whether or not we could discern
that they came about from morphological sequences, we would have to omit
length from the picture, which is the Dakotan situation.  So unless length
is in some degree independent of accent, we are overdifferentiating to
write it, however nicely we can predict the location of accent by assuming
it.

> Looked at across Siouan, it is notable that Crow, Hidatsa and Tutelo and
> Ofo, at opposite geographical ends of the family, had length transcribed in
> the same (i.e., cognate) lexemes as early as the late 19th and early 20th
> century. Miner's Winnebago clearly shows that this persisted into
> Mississippi Valley Siouan.

Awkwardly, if you undo accent shift and Dorsey's Law and certain V1 + V2
=> VV sequences at morpheme boundaries, you have more or less exact
correspondence of accent and length along the lines of Dhegiha, or, to be
precise, along the lines of Ioway-Otoe (cf. Ken Miner's joke that the way
to predict accent in Winnebago was to study IO).  I've spent a lot of time
looking at this in Winnebago and it's pretty much just the accent shift
and Dorsey's law that make accent and length seem so independent in
Winnebago.  That is, they do make them independent, but only secondarily,
since the synchronic accent can end up on, or one or two syllables after,
the long vowel it was once associated with, depending on the structure of
the word.

> These languages have length in both accented and unaccented syllables.

I guess we need a set of standard examples of these, for the individual
languages and diachronically, too, to help us out here.

JEK


From rankin at ku.edu  Wed Mar 28 17:15:53 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:15:53 -0600
Subject: More on Long Vowels
Message-ID: <WED.28.MAR.2001.111553.0600.>

I think this answers my question about fonts as far as our own server here
at KU is concerned. I had originally sent you a message, which you quoted
back, that had real accented vowels in it, and obviously our server choked
on it when you returned it. I "opened" the attachment and it had turned the
accented vowels into geek-o-gibberish. I did manage to read your reply
happily, but my original charx were a mess. I wonder if it would like the
Unicode fonts better.

Bob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Koontz John E [mailto:John.Koontz at colorado.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 2:38 AM
> To: 'siouan at lists.colorado.edu '
> Subject: RE: More on Long Vowels
>
>
> This message uses a character set that is not supported by
> the Internet Service.  To view the original message content,
> open the attached message. If the text doesn't display
> correctly, save the attachment to disk, and then open it
> using a viewer that can display the original character set.
>


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Mar 28 18:04:04 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:04:04 -0700
Subject: More on Long Vowels
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0103280104310.3674-100000@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.28.MAR.2001.110404.0700.>

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Koontz John E wrote:
> However, he has many instances of gagha'=bi-ama, gagha'=bi=the,
> gagha'=bi=egaN, gagha'=i=ga.
>
> I don't know quite what to make of this.  Perhaps he heard
> ga<H>gha<L>bi<L>a<L>mA with a fall from ga<H> to gha<L> so that gha<L>
> appeared to be the point of stress.  It may even have been louder or at
> least more salient in some sense, from the English speaker's point of view
> I can't think of a way to interpret this in terms of the influence of
> length.

OK, I did think of a way.  If the (ablauted) theme (stem-final) vowel -a-
before =bi is long, whether or not the preceding root-internal vowel in
gagh- is long, then that would, I think, make an English speaker perceive
the theme vowel as accented.  But if only the root-internal vowel is long
(or if neither is), then it seems hard to understand why Dorsey marks it
as accented.

So perhaps writing gagha'=bi=ama is consistent with

ga(a)'ghaa=bi=ama

where V' (accenting) marks the last high vowel, and VV marks length.

Adding accents to clarify matters:

> I can't think, off hand, of a dh-stem that behaves like ga'ghe or
> daN'be in terms of stress.  Even examples like dhathe' 'eat' that may
> not be instrumental stems seem to treat dha as a "light" syllable.

I'm trying, I hope correctly, to distinguish the accentual pattern of
CV(V)'CV stems from that of CVCV' stems, even though many of the latter
(e.g., dhVCV' stems) do develop first syllable accent in the first person
and second person due to b- and s^- behaving like syllables for purposes
of accentuation.

    make/do                                 eat

I   ppaa'ghe                                bdha'the
you s^kaa'ghe                               [s^]na'the
he  gaa'ghe ~ gaa'gha[=i]                   dhathe' ~ dhatha'[=i]

JEK


From ird at blueridge.net  Fri Mar 30 16:48:03 2001
From: ird at blueridge.net (ird)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 11:48:03 -0500
Subject: Time Depths and Comparisons
Message-ID: <FRI.30.MAR.2001.114803.0500.IRD@BLUERIDGE.NET>

Has anyone found a good way to handle time in presenting reconstructions along with dated language data, especially across languages?  Dates of transcriptions, accurately interpreted and updated, must reflect language states over a period before and after recording, say two or three generations, maybe 75-100 years.  Sometimes the beginnings of continuing changes have been documented, like */s/ > /h/ observed in IOM by Whitman.  I am also aware that change accelerates during periods of rapid change (e.g., the striking differences betweeen the English in my faqmily Civil War letters and contemporary English in the same locale).

The farther back we go, the harder to date a reconstruction, and if we attempt comparisons among related langues widely separated across space as well, whether in their lexicons or structures, we need to observe the speech communities' changed environments and interactions with neighbors and trading partners, and should date acquisitions of loans if possible.

I'm trying several things in my works-in-progress.  First, I use visual alignment as pioneered by Haas in listing items to be compared, phoneme by phoneme, morpheme by morpheme, but the order of languages, and thus of data cited, is given as a continuum of similarities, which de-emphasizes fixed boundaries for the subgroups we have been calling Mississippi Valley (Winn.-IOM, Dakotan and Dhegihan), Missouri River, and Ohio Valley.  Mandan isn't isolated, and Catawba is right in there, not separated out.  A (genetic) continuum line can also be shown with curves or loops to suggest spatial arrangements, and thus likely closeness among speech communities who were neighbors at different time periods.  I haven't seen how to combine a tree and a continuum.

To attend to time differences in compared forms, I try to fill out an adjacent column for estimated and recorded dates.  This column can be graphed as on a bar chart, turning the language-continuum line on its side and showing higher filled bars for still-current forms, lower ones for obsolete ones, still lower ones for reconstructions theorized as viable over designated prehistoric spans.  This allows presentation showing linguistic similarities along the continuum plus degrees of variations over time.  Discussion explains the evidence and inferences underlying the dating of reconstructions.

Does the Comparative Siouian Dictionary (archived at U. of Colorado I think) handle comparative time depths?  I have mislaid information on how I might access it.  I would appreciate ideas and pointers to published work that deals with changes in (or snapshots of pieces of?) the Siouan languages over a timespan greater than from European contact to the present.

Irene


From rankin at ku.edu  Fri Mar 30 17:17:27 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 11:17:27 -0600
Subject: Siouan Long Vowls
Message-ID: <FRI.30.MAR.2001.111727.0600.>

> > I think we are ignoring some basic tenets of phonology.

Koontz writes:
> But if all long vowels were also accented, whether or not we
> could discern that they came about from morphological sequences, > we
would have to omit length from the picture, which is the
> Dakotan situation.  So unless length is in some degree
> independent of accent, we are overdifferentiating to write it,
> however nicely we can predict the location of accent by assuming
> it.

I disagree. It is only if *ALL* accented vowels were long, and length
occurred *nowhere* else, that we would be entitled to equate the two.
Moreover, it would have to be shown that it was accent that was generating
length and not length that was *attracting* accent! This is not a minor
point: most of the accented long vowels in Mississippi Valley Siouan
languages occur precisely in syllables that are exceptions to the 2nd
syllable accent rule. It seems to me that this is unlikely to be an
accident.

We already have Ponca and Chiwere data in recent postings that show both
long and short accented vowels.

> > These languages have length in both accented and unaccented
> syllables.
>
> I guess we need a set of standard examples of these, for the
> individual languages and diachronically, too, to help us out
> here.

I agree that would certainly be nice, but the first requirement is that we
have to have field workers willing actively to investigate the problem. I
sense a genuine reluctance among Siouanists to bother with this annoying
problem. If we were Algonquianists we'd all be fired. We need to stop
looking for "minimal pairs" and start training ourselves to hear length,
accented and unaccented. Siouan languages aren't minimal pair languages;
it's hard enough to find them even for simple consonant distinctions.

The other attitudinal problem that I worry about is the idea that geminate
vowels are not long vowels. Unless they are invariably rearticulated, that's
just nonsense. Bimorphemic length is just one *source* of long vowels.

And I reiterate -- I started out just as guilty of these attitudes as anyone
else. But the state of many Siouan languages today won't permit us to wait
for a generation of better trained field workers.

Bob


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Mar 30 18:02:51 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 11:02:51 -0700
Subject: Siouan Long Vowls
In-Reply-To: <5823BD992D67D3119F630008C7CF50FC0A441434@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.MAR.2001.110251.0700.>

On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> Koontz writes:
> > But if all long vowels were also accented, whether or not we
> > could discern that they came about from morphological sequences, > we
> would have to omit length from the picture, which is the
> > Dakotan situation.  So unless length is in some degree
> > independent of accent, we are overdifferentiating to write it,
> > however nicely we can predict the location of accent by assuming
> > it.
>
> I disagree. It is only if *ALL* accented vowels were long, and length
> occurred *nowhere* else, that we would be entitled to equate the two.

I said what I said poorly.  What Bob is saying is what I was trying to
say.  If accented <=> long, then being able to place all accents on the
second mora wouldn't justify writing length in the prototonic cases.  In
this case secondary length due to accentedness would have obscured
morpheme-sequence-based and/or morpheme-identity-based length. One would
have to assume that all lengthening situations occurred within the first
two syllables, which, up to a point, is not inconsistent with the
situation we face.  (Note:  Of course Bob is also saying that this doesn't
happen, i.e., it is not the case that accented <=> long.)

What I mean by morpheme-sequence-based is cases where two identical vowels
occur across a morpheme boundary, or one vowel assimilates the other in
such a context, creating a VV sequence that is accented even though it
occurs in the first syllable.  Cases like Omaha-Ponca a 'A1' + gase 'cut'
=> a + ase => aa'se 'I cut'.

By morpheme-identity-based length I mean cases like the accented
a-locative in Omaha-Ponca:  aa + gdhiN => aa'gdhiN 'to sit down/on'.
Another potential case might be gaagh- 'make', which yields gaa'ghe when
it occurs with its (obligatory) theme vowel.  From a Dakotanist point of
view this would be a case of morpheme-identity-based accent, and kagh + a
=> ka'gha.

When I ask for examples, what I guess I'm asking for is help with ear
training.  I don't require minimal pairs, of course, since we all know how
difficult these are to provide in Siouan languages.  We're just grateful
for the ones we find.  What I'm looking for is examples of

any CVV'CV vs. any CV'CV

or

any CV'CVV vs. any CV'CV

etc., or even cases where one might expect this without any certainty. I
can deal with a work still in progress answer.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Mar 30 18:16:20 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 11:16:20 -0700
Subject: Time Depths and Comparisons
In-Reply-To: <200103301647.f2UGlHW32626@genesis.blueridge.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.MAR.2001.111620.0700.>

On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, ird wrote:

> Has anyone found a good way to handle time in presenting
> reconstructions along with dated language data, especially across
> languages?  Dates of transcriptions, accurately interpreted and
> updated, must reflect language states over a period before and after
> recording, say two or three generations, maybe 75-100 years.
> Sometimes the beginnings of continuing changes have been documented,
> like */s/ > /h/ observed in IOM by Whitman.  I am also aware that
> change accelerates during periods of rapid change (e.g., the striking
> differences betweeen the English in my faqmily Civil War letters and
> contemporary English in the same locale).

I'm not quite sure I understand the question.  An example of problems
you're facing might help.

Typically, e.g., in the CSD, the database representation is something
like (highly idealized, with partially invented data):

PMV *s^uNk(e) | dog

DA s^uN'ka | s'oN'ka | dog, horse | Foo 1970:198a

OP s^aN'ge | shoN'ge | horse | Bar 1884:101.2

which could be represented alternatively as

PMV-Reconstruction s^uNk(e)
PMV-Gloss dog

DA-Phonemic s^uN'ka
DA-SourceForm s'oN'ka
DA-Gloss dog, horse
DA-Source Foo 1970:198a

OP-Phonemic s^aN'ge
OP-SourceForm shoN'ge
OP-Gloss horse
OP-Source Bar 1884:101.2

This would be rendered in a published dictionary something like

PMV *s^uNk(e) 'dog' DA s^uN'ka "s'oN'ka" 'dog, horse' (Foo 1970:198a); OP
s^aN'ge "shoN'ge" 'horse' (Bar 1884:101.2).

Of course, heavier use of alternate type faces would be made, etc.

In explaining matters putting a few well chosen examples into a table
makes it easier to make a point, but publication of volumes of material
requires the paragraphed format.  In collecting the data you need
something that is convenient for your database system, and for data entry.

JEK


From rankin at ku.edu  Fri Mar 30 18:44:50 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 12:44:50 -0600
Subject: Siouan Long Vowls
Message-ID: <FRI.30.MAR.2001.124450.0600.>

> What Bob is saying is what I was trying to say.

That's what I sorta figured. I had to take the available opportunity to nag
people a little more though. :-)

> If accented <=> long, then being able to place all accents on the second
mora wouldn't justify writing length in the prototonic cases.

Or wouldn't justify writing accent! Take your pick. the question is whether
one of those can occur without the other. I maintain that both can in most
Siouan languages.

> When I ask for examples, what I guess I'm asking for is help
> with ear training.  I don't require minimal pairs, of course,
> since we all know how difficult these are to provide in Siouan
> languages.  We're just grateful
> for the ones we find. What I'm looking for is examples of any
> CVV'CV vs. any CV'CV

Those would be like the ones Jimm and Kathy posted from Chiwere and Ponca
respectively, I guess.

It might be more productive to assemble a list or paradigm of forms with V+V
at morpheme boundaries, both pre- and post-tonic. In some languages like
Dakotan these may collapse to a short version of V2. Or they may remain
long. Or they may remain long but attract accent forward. But it would be
good to have some specific forms to elicit with, say, wa+a, wa+o, wa+i, etc.

Posttonically, it might be instructive to look at Dhegiha imperatives in
-a'. Gaaghe 'make, do' + -a 'imperative' is...what?
gaagha'  or
gagha'   or
gaghaa'
gaaghaa' ???

Or any verb form that ends in a vowel followed by -azhi 'neg', etc.

> any CV'CVV vs. any CV'CV

You might have to go to Crow to find that :-)

Actually, it might be worthwhile looking at postverbal enclitics followed by
the female speech marker, -e, in some Dhegiha langs.

Sorry for the diffuse answer. As you say, it's all work in progress and I
haven't made enough progress to satisfy myself.

Bob


From BARudes at aol.com  Fri Mar 30 19:11:21 2001
From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 14:11:21 EST
Subject: Siouan Long Vowls
Message-ID: <FRI.30.MAR.2001.141121.EST.>

With regard to reconstructing long vowels for Proto-Siouan, it is probably
relevant to note that Catawba has a phonemic contrast between long and short
vowels, but a very different system of accent placement than the two mora
system in Siouan.  In Catawba, accent may fall on either the first or last
syllable of disyllabic words.  On longer words, excluding some
morphologically conditioned exceptions, accent falls on the penultimate
syllable if it is long.  If it is short, accent falls on the antepenultimate
syllable.  (This accent pattern is very much like the one reconstructed for
Proto-Northern Iroquoian).

Blair
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From rankin at ku.edu  Fri Mar 30 19:19:00 2001
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 13:19:00 -0600
Subject: Time Depths and Comparisons
Message-ID: <FRI.30.MAR.2001.131900.0600.>

> Has anyone found a good way to handle time in presenting
> reconstructions along with dated language data, especially
> across languages?

No. :-)

Having said that, I do have a paper in which I attempt to date subgroup
splits in Siouan using the largely-borrowed cultigen terminology (squash,
corn, beans, etc.) in which I display the results in two ways. (1) a
Stammbaum with the nodes labeled and dated (tentatively of course) which
conveys the temporal distinctions and (2) a map (which should be a *series*
of maps) to convey the spatial distinctions that need to be made.

Beyond that, I must say that I've never been happy with all the ink that has
been spilled debating whether the family tree or wave diagrams are "true" --
or, worse, whether one is true and the other isn't. Obviously both are
"true" but neither is complete. It's what happens when we try to collapse a
stack of comparative grammars and a stack of dialect atlases to a single
page. There is no substitute for a discursive treatment.

But, like John, I'm not certain this is the kind of question you're asking
about.

> The farther back we go, the harder to date a reconstruction,
> and if we attempt comparisons among related languages widely
> separated across space as well, whether in their lexicons or
> structures, we need to observe the speech communities'
> changed environments and interactions with neighbors and
> trading partners, and should date acquisitions of loans if
> possible.

Yes. And that's why most comparativists don't have much use for Labovian
dialectology. It isn't because there is any serious disagreement between the
two groups (at least using Labov's '94 book as a benchmark); it's because
it's SO hard to determine precisely those communities, interactions and
environments at any great time depth. Sociolinguistic observations are often
possible at very shallow time depths, but the returns diminish quickly at
any serious time depth. This often just leaves us stuck with
uniformatarianism, sound change regularity and concommitant relative
chronology as tools. Plus whatever shallow archaeological correlations we
can make.

But there wouldn't be any sport to it if it were easy.

>
> I'm trying several things in my works-in-progress.  First, I
> use visual alignment as pioneered by Haas in listing items to
> be compared, phoneme by phoneme, morpheme by morpheme, but
> the order of languages, and thus of data cited, is given as a
> continuum of similarities, which de-emphasizes fixed
> boundaries for the subgroups we have been calling Mississippi
> Valley (Winn.-IOM, Dakotan and Dhegihan), Missouri River, and
> Ohio Valley.  Mandan isn't isolated, and Catawba is right in
> there, not separated out.  A (genetic) continuum line can
> also be shown with curves or loops to suggest spatial
> arrangements, and thus likely closeness among speech
> communities who were neighbors at different time periods.  I
> haven't seen how to combine a tree and a continuum.

Although when divergence begins, there is normally a dialect continuum, and
that continuum may persist for awhile (or in some cases "forever"), my own
experience with Siouan tends to cause me to de-emphasize the continuum. One
can't always do that with language families like Muskogean, northern
Athabaskan or others for a variety of reasons, but a unique combination of
circumstances (e.g. migration into areas of reduced annual rainfall) caused
numerous of the Siouan-speaking tribes to move along major rivers into the
eastern plains virtually forming a Stammbaum on the face of the land. The
analogy isn't perfect, but the subgroups seem very well defined to me
(compared with, say, Germanic or Romance).

> Does the Comparative Siouian Dictionary (archived at U. of
> Colorado I think) handle comparative time depths?

It's pretty primitive. It's presented subgroup by subgroup, those groupings
having been determined in advance and pretty much agreed upon. It hasn't
been generally accessible, but it needs to become so.

Again, I'm not sure this addresses your points.

Bob


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Fri Mar 30 20:28:30 2001
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 14:28:30 -0600
Subject: Time Depths and Comparisons
Message-ID: <FRI.30.MAR.2001.142830.0600.>

> > Does the Comparative Siouian Dictionary (archived at U. of
> > Colorado I think) handle comparative time depths?
>
> It's pretty primitive. It's presented subgroup by subgroup, those groupings
> having been determined in advance and pretty much agreed upon. It hasn't
> been generally accessible, but it needs to become so.

Please!


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sat Mar 31 00:26:33 2001
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 17:26:33 -0700
Subject: Siouan Long Vowls
In-Reply-To: <da.40c8591.27f63459@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.MAR.2001.172633.0700.>

On Fri, 30 Mar 2001 BARudes at aol.com wrote:
> [In Catawba] On longer words, excluding some morphologically
> conditioned exceptions, accent falls on the penultimate syllable if it
> is long.  If it is short, accent falls on the antepenultimate
> syllable.  (This accent pattern is very much like the one
> reconstructed for Proto-Northern Iroquoian).

It sounds more or less like the system for Ancient Greek, too, though
maybe the conditioning factor there was the final syllable.  I have
forgotten.


From ird at blueridge.net  Sat Mar 31 15:07:20 2001
From: ird at blueridge.net (ird)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 10:07:20 -0500
Subject: Time Depths, etc.
Message-ID: <SAT.31.MAR.2001.100720.0500.>

Thanks for all responses, esp. RLR's point-by-point.  Hope the paper on cuiltigens and Siouan splits is in print somewhere!

I missed some nuances of reply.  RLR replied to my query about the CSD with:

>It's pretty primitive. It's presented subgroup by subgroup, those groupings
>having been determined in advance and pretty much agreed upon. It hasn't
>been generally accessible, but it needs to become so.

To which AH replied:

>Please!

What should one out of the loop assume is common knowledge about the CSD or access to it or questions about it??

I *would* like to revist the subgroupings, one reason I'm working with a continuum.  I would hope for credible dating sometime of the divergences of Mandan and Catawba and am interested in when Biloxi went its own way, surely in early OV more closely related to Tutelo than to Ofo. I'll wade in with examples when my papers get unpacked from boxes.  Now am just glad to clarify received opinions and know where not to tread on pain of scorn! :-)

Irene Roach Delpino