From jmcbride at kayserv.net Tue Nov 13 19:46:57 2001 From: jmcbride at kayserv.net (Justin McBride) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 13:46:57 -0600 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha Message-ID: Hello, everyone! We have a question or two for the Dhegihanists out there. We at the Kaw Nation are working on an elementary level curriculum for Kansa. We would like to be able to include in the vocabulary as many common classroom words and phrases as we can find. Unfortunately, we have found no word for 'number.' Can anyone provide me with Osage, Omaha-Ponca, or Quapaw cognates? We would prefer not to neologize if a related word exists in one or more of the others. Furthermore, the Kansa word 'count' seems very odd to me. 'I count' is 'abla,' and 'you count' is 'yabla.' No problem there. The imperative form is 'yawa.' These are the only attested forms of the verbs I have seen. I am fairly new to the Dhegiha verb, and find myself at a loss at figuring out what is happening here. What is the rest of the conjugation? I am not even sure what the 3rd Sing form would be. I am utterly stymied in just two syllables! For shame. This is my first posting to the list, so please bear with my ignorance. I am not even sure of the e-rthography. I've read through other posts that seem to use very similar systems. Is there an archived post of any or all orthography conventions within the email confines of the list? Thanks, Justin McBride jtmcbr at kayserv.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu Wed Nov 14 00:27:05 2001 From: rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu (rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:27:05 -0600 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha Message-ID: Hello Justin! Thanks for your post, and welcome to the list! I'm a student in Mark Awakuni-Swetland's class on Omaha. We have also been trying to come up with a curriculum for teaching the language, while desparately trying to figure it out ourselves, so we can sympathize with your plight! I hope we can keep in touch with you and compare notes. In Omaha-Ponca, the basic word for 'count' is dha'wa. The conjugation we have seems to be: dha'wa s/he counts bdha'wa I count hna'wa you count (the 'h' may be silent.) aNdha'wa we count This is a pretty regular set, and matches your imperative form 'yawa'. What surprises me is your first- and second- person forms 'abla' and 'yabla'. We do have a prefix wa- which generically substitutes for the specific objects that would otherwise precede the verb. Thus, for our English sense of counting in general, rather than counting fish, houses, people, stars, or whatever, it would probably actually come out something like: wadha'wa s/he counts wabdha'wa I count etc. I'm not sure we've found an abstract term 'number' yet, though the Omaha dictionary compiled by Mark and Elizabeth Stabler many years ago translates 'number' as 'wadhawa'. Other than ablaut issues, and a few irregular common verbs, the command form and the third person singular are normally the same. The command form is the verb, ending in -a if it ablauts, followed by the command particle, -ga for men and -a for women. I believe that dha'wa is a regular, non-ablauting -a stem verb, so we can just use it as it is. ShaN'ge dha'wa ga! Count the horses! (man speaking) Wadha'wa ga! Count! (man speaking) ShaN'ge dha'wa a! Count the horses! (19th century woman speaking) ShaN'ge dha'wa ya! Count the horses! (20th century woman speaking) For the orthography on this list, check out John Koontz' excellent web site at http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/default.htm and click down to FAQ, and then "What is NetSiouan?" Good luck! Rory "Justin McBride" @lists.colorado.edu on 11/13/2001 01:46:57 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu To: cc: Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha Hello, everyone! We have a question or two for the Dhegihanists out there. We at the Kaw Nation are working on an elementary level curriculum for Kansa.  We would like to be able to include in the vocabulary as many common classroom words and phrases as we can find.  Unfortunately, we have found no word for 'number.'  Can anyone provide me with Osage, Omaha-Ponca, or Quapaw cognates?  We would prefer not to neologize if a related word exists in one or more of the others. Furthermore, the Kansa word 'count' seems very odd to me.  'I count' is 'abla,' and 'you count' is 'yabla.'  No problem there.  The imperative form is 'yawa.'  These are the only attested forms of the verbs I have seen. I am fairly new to the Dhegiha verb, and find myself at a loss at figuring out what is happening here.  What is the rest of the conjugation? I am not even sure what the 3rd Sing form would be.  I am utterly stymied in just two syllables!  For shame. This is my first posting to the list, so please bear with my ignorance.  I am not even sure of the e-rthography.  I've read through other posts that seem to use very similar systems.  Is there an archived post of any or all orthography conventions within the email confines of the list? Thanks, Justin McBride jtmcbr at kayserv.net From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Nov 14 00:49:52 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:49:52 -0600 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha Message-ID: > I'm not sure we've found an abstract term 'number' yet I wouldn't be surprised (in general terms) if 'number' were a relatively unimportant word. I can't think of many situations requiring it in cultures without a formal mathematics. Alternatives are easily found for expressions like "a large number of". It certainly would come in handy in teaching, though: "let's work on numbers today". An obvious alternative here--"counting"--seems worth looking into: is "count" as noun or verb more common than "number"? Alan From rankin at ku.edu Wed Nov 14 03:41:38 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 21:41:38 -0600 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha Message-ID: > I'm not sure we've found an abstract term 'number' yet >I wouldn't be surprised (in general terms) if 'number' were a relatively unimportant word. Yes, note that "number" in English is borrowed from Fr. nombre < Latin numerus. There doesn't seem to be a real Anglo-Saxon equivalent. There is 'to tell', meaning 'count' (as in a bank teller), but a 'tale' isn't a number; it's restricted to recounting verbal material, not numerals. I'd be surprised to find a noun for number in any Siouan language -- or most other languages for that matter. I guess Rory's 'wadhawa' "something [you] count" is as good a noun as any. Kaw would be *wayawa. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Nov 14 07:24:20 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 00:24:20 -0700 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I guess Rory's 'wadhawa' "something [you] count" is as good a noun as > any. Kaw would be *wayawa. I wondered about we'dhawa (we'yawa?) 'with which you count', though perhaps that would be a closer equivalent to 'numeral'. (This would definitely be at least an etymologically long e, too.) In consideration of Alan Hartley's comments, I'd guess you'd say 'let's count things', which would, in fact, require wadhawa. I suspect the Kaw forms without -wa are simply somewhat contracted. A w is easily lost between vowels in many languages. In that case the final a should probably sound rather long, and we all know how easy it is to miss long vowels ... And speaking of etymology, a verb root beginning in w- is a little unusual, isn't it? For a Mississippi Valley Siouan language, that is. JEK From rankin at ku.edu Wed Nov 14 15:17:07 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:17:07 -0600 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha Message-ID: >I wondered about we'dhawa (we'yawa?) 'with which you count', though perhaps that would be a closer equivalent to 'numeral'. Actually, that word exists in Kaw, but it means 'counting stick' and it is an artifact in the possession of one of the clans. >I suspect the Kaw forms without -wa are simply somewhat contracted. A w is easily lost between vowels in many languages. In that case the final a should probably sound rather long, and we all know how easy it is to miss long vowels ... Probably. But the 2nd person form with the -bl- is simply a mistake someone somewhere along the line made. they've formed the 2nd person on the basis of the irregular 1st person! >And speaking of etymology, a verb root beginning in w- is a little unusual, isn't it? For a Mississippi Valley Siouan language, that is. Yes, that would be strange. I wonder of the ya- here is the instrumental or maybe just the 1st syllable of the root? So far I have found Osage and Omaha-Ponca cognates. Bob From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Nov 14 16:38:27 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:38:27 -0000 Subject: How far/how long? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does anyone know the Lakota equivalent of 'how far' in distance. I presume tohanyan is something like that. But I wonder how one would say 'how far is it to Rapid city from here?' and indeed would one say that or would one say 'how many days march is it?' or something. I am surprised that in none of my texts is there any such sentence? It is the sort of thing a foreigner in Lakota contry might ask and Lakota would not need to. Any hints from other Siouan languages. Bruce On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I guess Rory's 'wadhawa' "something [you] count" is as good a noun as > any. Kaw would be *wayawa. I wondered about we'dhawa (we'yawa?) 'with which you count', though perhaps that would be a closer equivalent to 'numeral'. (This would definitely be at least an etymologically long e, too.) In consideration of Alan Hartley's comments, I'd guess you'd say 'let's count things', which would, in fact, require wadhawa. I suspect the Kaw forms without -wa are simply somewhat contracted. A w is easily lost between vowels in many languages. In that case the final a should probably sound rather long, and we all know how easy it is to miss long vowels ... And speaking of etymology, a verb root beginning in w- is a little unusual, isn't it? For a Mississippi Valley Siouan language, that is. JEK Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Wed Nov 14 16:56:40 2001 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:56:40 -0700 Subject: How far/how long? In-Reply-To: <3BF29E03.17252.1EEA364@localhost> Message-ID: I have only a couple of guesses, not definitive answers, for Bruce's inquiry, but that may be a place to start. I think tohaNyaN is both 'how far' and 'how long'. 'How far is it from here to Rapid City" will require some native speaker insight, I think, because the expression "north of X" uses iwaziyataNhaN for 'north' -- Pierre kiN iwaziyataNhaN 'north of Pierre', and I have trouble reconciling the meaning with the constituency there. It looks like it should mean 'from north of Pierre'. For the 'how many days march is it' I expect an expression with the verb caN 'to be a 24 hour period', e.g. topa can '(for) four days.' I'll be watching for better-informed comments on these musings. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado Campus Box 295 Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 14 Nov 2001 bi1 at soas.ac.uk wrote: > Does anyone know the Lakota equivalent of 'how far' in distance. I > presume tohanyan is something like that. But I wonder how one > would say 'how far is it to Rapid city from here?' and indeed would > one say that or would one say 'how many days march is it?' or > something. I am surprised that in none of my texts is there any > such sentence? It is the sort of thing a foreigner in Lakota contry > might ask and Lakota would not need to. Any hints from other > Siouan languages. > > Bruce > > On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > I guess Rory's 'wadhawa' "something [you] count" is as good a noun as > > any. Kaw would be *wayawa. > > I wondered about we'dhawa (we'yawa?) 'with which you count', though > perhaps that would be a closer equivalent to 'numeral'. (This would > definitely be at least an etymologically long e, too.) > > In consideration of Alan Hartley's comments, I'd guess you'd say 'let's > count things', which would, in fact, require wadhawa. > > I suspect the Kaw forms without -wa are simply somewhat contracted. A w > is easily lost between vowels in many languages. In that case the final a > should probably sound rather long, and we all know how easy it is to miss > long vowels ... > > And speaking of etymology, a verb root beginning in w- is a little > unusual, isn't it? For a Mississippi Valley Siouan language, that is. > > JEK > > Dr. Bruce Ingham > Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies > SOAS > From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Nov 14 17:08:41 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 17:08:41 -0000 Subject: How far/how long? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David thanks for the thoughts. I remember Pierre ki iwaziyataNhaN na Mini S^os^e ki iwiyohpeyataNhaN from your course. I would take it that it means 'north from Pierre and West from the Missouri'. It is not unlike Arabic which would jinubin min al Kuwait 'south-ish from Kuwait'. Yes I would not be surprised if it was Mni Luzahan Otunwahe etan numpacan yaNke or something like it. All native speakers please forgive my presumptioin and do not laugh to loud. I await enlightenment. Bruce I have only a couple of guesses, not definitive answers, for Bruce's inquiry, but that may be a place to start. I think tohaNyaN is both 'how far' and 'how long'. 'How far is it from here to Rapid City" will require some native speaker insight, I think, because the expression "north of X" uses iwaziyataNhaN for 'north' -- Pierre kiN iwaziyataNhaN 'north of Pierre', and I have trouble reconciling the meaning with the constituency there. It looks like it should mean 'from north of Pierre'. For the 'how many days march is it' I expect an expression with the verb caN 'to be a 24 hour period', e.g. topa can '(for) four days.' I'll be watching for better-informed comments on these musings. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado Campus Box 295 Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 14 Nov 2001 bi1 at soas.ac.uk wrote: > Does anyone know the Lakota equivalent of 'how far' in distance. I > presume tohanyan is something like that. But I wonder how one > would say 'how far is it to Rapid city from here?' and indeed would > one say that or would one say 'how many days march is it?' or > something. I am surprised that in none of my texts is there any > such sentence? It is the sort of thing a foreigner in Lakota contry > might ask and Lakota would not need to. Any hints from other > Siouan languages. > > Bruce > > On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > I guess Rory's 'wadhawa' "something [you] count" is as good a noun as > > any. Kaw would be *wayawa. > > I wondered about we'dhawa (we'yawa?) 'with which you count', though > perhaps that would be a closer equivalent to 'numeral'. (This would > definitely be at least an etymologically long e, too.) > > In consideration of Alan Hartley's comments, I'd guess you'd say 'let's > count things', which would, in fact, require wadhawa. > > I suspect the Kaw forms without -wa are simply somewhat contracted. A w > is easily lost between vowels in many languages. In that case the final a > should probably sound rather long, and we all know how easy it is to miss > long vowels ... > > And speaking of etymology, a verb root beginning in w- is a little > unusual, isn't it? For a Mississippi Valley Siouan language, that is. > > JEK > > Dr. Bruce Ingham > Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies > SOAS > Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From jmcbride at kayserv.net Wed Nov 14 18:54:53 2001 From: jmcbride at kayserv.net (Justin McBride) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:54:53 -0600 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha Message-ID: > Actually, that word exists in Kaw, but it means 'counting stick' and it is > an artifact in the possession of one of the clans. Exactly, I initially took 'yawa' to be the root, and assumed a form something like 'weyawa' might be the word I was looking for, where 'we-' is really 'wa-' nominalizer + '-i-' instrumental. I searched the dictionary for something like this and actually found it. Unfortunately it seemed to be a reserved word for a cultural item--not exactly something that I'd want to use in a classroom setting. I wondered briefly about switching the instrumental to '-ya-' 'by mouth' to tweak the meaning, and maybe adding a helper or two, such as 'iye' 'speech' or something to that effect. I came up with the curious phrase 'iye wayayawa.' Is it just me? ...This seems kinda silly. I'm wondering if it is even possible to use instrumental 'ya' to refer to speech. Does it generally invoke the sense of physical mouth mechanics, such as blowing or chewing? I'm thinking the speech-mouth connection may be somewhat romanticized or just out-of-place. > >I suspect the Kaw forms without -wa are simply somewhat contracted. A w > is easily lost between vowels in many languages. In that case the final > a should probably sound rather long, and we all know how easy it is to > miss long vowels ... > > Probably. But the 2nd person form with the -bl- is simply a mistake someone > somewhere along the line made. they've formed the 2nd person on the basis > of the irregular 1st person! On a somewhat related note, I think you've (Dr. Rankin, that is) shown me some interesting Kansa examples of redundancy in 1st & 2nd persons in which two different sets of prefixes are used at the same time. (I can't think of any of these examples off hand). For instance, in the above example, you posited 'yahnawa' as an analogous possibility. Do such constructions more often involve combinations of A-Active Regular Conjugation and (Y-) R-Stem Conjugation? Does this ever occur with any of the less productive conjugations? Just curious, here... not particularly helpful in this situation. > > >And speaking of etymology, a verb root beginning in w- is a little > unusual, isn't it? For a Mississippi Valley Siouan language, that is. > > Yes, that would be strange. I wonder of the ya- here is the instrumental or > maybe just the 1st syllable of the root? So far I have found Osage and > Omaha-Ponca cognates. > This makes my original construction all the more ridiculous! Oddly, I recognized the fact that 'ya' is an instrumental, but never considered it would be anything other than part of the verb root in this case. Are the instrumental prefixes pretty consistent between dialects? Specifically, is the 'by mouth' prefix found in all of them in roughly the same form? jm From rankin at ku.edu Wed Nov 14 20:17:03 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:17:03 -0600 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha Message-ID: > I wondered briefly about switching the instrumental to '-ya-' 'by mouth' to tweak the meaning, and maybe adding a helper or two, such as 'iye' 'speech' or something to that effect. I came up with the curious phrase 'iye wayayawa.' Is it just me? ...This seems > kinda silly. I'm wondering if it is even possible to use instrumental 'ya' to refer to speech. Does it generally invoke the sense of physical mouth mechanics, such as blowing or chewing? Yes, you can definitely use ya- with speech-related verbs. It can be either physical or metaphorical use of the mouth. Check out all the ya- entries in the dictionary and you'll see a bunch. > ...some interesting Kansa examples of redundancy in 1st & 2nd persons in which two different sets of prefixes are used at the same time. > Do such constructions more often involve combinations of A-Active Regular Conjugation and (Y-) R-Stem Conjugation? Does this ever occur with any of the less productive conjugations? Yes. I've heard yashkaaxe 'you make/do' where both ya- and sh- are pronominals. Probably lots of others. The duplicate pronominal always precedes and is the "regular" one though. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Nov 15 03:53:56 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 20:53:56 -0700 Subject: How far/how long? In-Reply-To: <3BF29E03.17252.1EEA364@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Nov 2001 bi1 at soas.ac.uk wrote: > Does anyone know the Lakota equivalent of 'how far' in distance. I > presume tohanyan is something like that. But I wonder how one > would say 'how far is it to Rapid city from here?' and indeed would > one say that or would one say 'how many days march is it?' or > something. I am surprised that in none of my texts is there any > such sentence? It is the sort of thing a foreigner in Lakota contry > might ask and Lakota would not need to. Any hints from other > Siouan languages. Well, for Omaha-Ponca a close match in syntax would be. There's no "from here" or "to there" phrase. Dorsey 1890:690.4-5 S^e' SiN'de Gdhe'ska a=thaN' gdhiN' e'=iN=the e' iNwiN'dh(a) that Spotted Tail how far he sits perhaps that to tell me idha=i ga! send it IMPm Note that a=thaN' (stress seems irregular?) is analogous to to=haN' yaN a is the indefinite, and the particle thaN is actually cognate with haN, one of various cases where the rare OP th corresponds to Dakotan h, like thi : hi 'to arrive there'. There doesn't seem to be any analogue of the -ya (nasalized in context?). There are a couple of additional examples in the Dorsey texts, but they are relatives (as far as ...). From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Nov 15 04:17:32 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 21:17:32 -0700 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: <003101c16d3d$de360780$2d77f0c7@kayserv.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Justin McBride wrote: > Unfortunately it seemed to be a reserved word for a cultural item--not > exactly something that I'd want to use in a classroom setting. While I wouldn't be surprised is the existence of something like we'yawa blocked a more productive use, I'm not sure it would. We don't know a lot about the productivity of the grammatical prefixes in Mississippi Valley Siouan. > I wondered briefly about switching the instrumental to '-ya-' 'by > mouth' to tweak the meaning, and maybe adding a helper or two, such as > 'iye' 'speech' or something to that effect. I came up with the > curious phrase 'iye wayayawa.' Is it just me? ...This seems kinda > silly. I'm wondering if it is even possible to use instrumental 'ya' > to refer to speech. Does it generally invoke the sense of physical > mouth mechanics, such as blowing or chewing? I'm thinking the > speech-mouth connection may be somewhat romanticized or just > out-of-place. Omaha has forms like dhaxu'be 'to speak in wonder of' and dhas^i'ge 'to speak against' (glosses from Dorsey's texts). > On a somewhat related note, I think you've (Dr. Rankin, that is) shown me > some interesting Kansa examples of redundancy in 1st & 2nd persons in which > two different sets of prefixes are used at the same time. (I can't think of > any of these examples off hand). For instance, in the above example, you > posited 'yahnawa' as an analogous possibility. Do such constructions more > often involve combinations of A-Active Regular Conjugation and (Y-) R-Stem > Conjugation? Does this ever occur with any of the less productive > conjugations? Modern Omaha has regular + d-stem inflecion of daNbe 'to see'. LaFlesche gives regular + b-stem (p-stem) for "boN" (i.e., poN) in Osage. It's actually a fairly common situation. Omaha-Ponca have idhappahaN, is^pahaN, ibahaN for 'I/you/(s)he know(s)', with double inflection only in the first person. > would be anything other than part of the verb root in this case. Are the > instrumental prefixes pretty consistent between dialects? Specifically, is > the 'by mouth' prefix found in all of them in roughly the same form? The instrumentals are pretty much the same across the family. There's a certain amount of irregular variation in form, confusion of similar cases, or merging or splitting into two variants, but no wholesale innovation or loss. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Nov 15 04:21:43 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 21:21:43 -0700 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Justin wrote: > Do such constructions more often involve combinations of A-Active Regular > Conjugation and (Y-) R-Stem Conjugation? Does this ever occur with any of > the less productive conjugations? I should add that doubling with *r-stem (Kansa y- or OP dh-stems) is somewhat unusual in DHegiha (or, anyway, Omaha-Ponca), but I think it occurs wholesale in recent Ioway-Otoe, where I gather that regular + r-stem is the rule for the r-stem paradigms, though that wasn't the case in somewhat older materials. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Nov 15 05:23:10 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 22:23:10 -0700 Subject: More on Number; Inflected Q/INDEF Words Message-ID: I checked "number" and "quantity" in Omaha-Ponca the Dorsey texts and, in a nice concatenation with Bruce's query on "how far" I notice that, except for cases where "great number" is an English idiom for "many," it seems that "number" always occurs in translations of correlatives based on the =naN stem, e.g., a'=naN 'how many', but e'=kki=naN 'an equal (or sufficient) number or quanity' (-kki- reciprocal/reflexive), e'=naN 'that quantity', and so on. I suppose you could say something like 'we will learn to say how many' for 'we will learn numbers'. Incidentally: a'= naN= i 'how many are they' (JOD 1890:297.11) INDEF many PLURAL So, you can inflect this indefinite/interrogative stem for number. For that matter: a'wa= the= di= i 'in what place are they' (JOD 1890:70.10) INDEF-OF-2 DEF-ART LOC PLURAL And: JOD 90:587.1: e=a'thaN=i 'why are they' JOD 90:661.8 e=aN'=i 'how are they' JOD 90:46.14 awa'=hnaNkha=s^e 'where are you who ...' There latter case has personal inflection with the second person plural of the article dhiNkHe 'the sitting'. From ullrich.j at soupvm.cz Thu Nov 15 06:20:37 2001 From: ullrich.j at soupvm.cz (Jan F. Ullrich) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 07:20:37 +0100 Subject: How far/how long? In-Reply-To: <3BF29E03.17252.1EEA364@localhost> Message-ID: I am pretty sure I remember the native speakers saying something like: TohaN' thehaN' yathi' he? How far from here do you live. Besides, I think the time adverbs like tohaN'yaN are adverbs of place/distance at the same time, e.g. i'thehaN - long from / far from, hehaN'yaN - that long (time) / that far. So I presume Bruce's question could likely be: How far is it to Rapid City from here? Rapid City letaN' tohaN'yaN yaNka' he? Or Rapid City letaN' tohaN' thehaN' yaNka' he? Rapid City is ten miles from here. Mnilu'zahe OtxuN'wahe letaN' makhi'yutxa wikce'mna (hehaN'yaN) yaNke'. Jan PS: I am going to search some of my texts and audio recordings for evidence. Jan F. Ullrich ullrich.j at soupvm.cz www.inext.cz/siouan Jan F. Ullrich ullrich.j at soupvm.cz www.inext.cz/siouan > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of bi1 at soas.ac.uk > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 5:38 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: How far/how long? > > > Does anyone know the Lakota equivalent of 'how far' in distance. I > presume tohanyan is something like that. But I wonder how one > would say 'how far is it to Rapid city from here?' and indeed would > one say that or would one say 'how many days march is it?' or > something. I am surprised that in none of my texts is there any > such sentence? It is the sort of thing a foreigner in Lakota contry > might ask and Lakota would not need to. Any hints from other > Siouan languages. > > Bruce > From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Nov 15 12:56:26 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 12:56:26 -0000 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: <003101c16d3d$de360780$2d77f0c7@kayserv.net> Message-ID: Is Kaw the same as Kansa I'm intrigued Bruce > Actually, that word exists in Kaw, but it means 'counting stick' and it is > an artifact in the possession of one of the clans. Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From jmcbride at kayserv.net Thu Nov 15 15:22:18 2001 From: jmcbride at kayserv.net (Justin McBride) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 09:22:18 -0600 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha Message-ID: > Is Kaw the same as Kansa > I'm intrigued > Bruce > Kaw is known by many names, notably Kansa, Konze, Kanza, and Kansas. Perhaps Kansa is the familiar term to you. Growing up in Osage country, a little ways from Kaw City, I always heard the word Kaw. I try to use the word Kansa, though, because it's much closer to the way it used to be said: kkaN'ze or kkaN:'ze. jm From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Nov 15 18:31:12 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 18:31:12 -0000 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: <002201c16de9$5288f740$2d77f0c7@kayserv.net> Message-ID: Thanks Jim KhaNza is what they are called in Lakota think. Not far from the original,name. We English are formed from the Angles, Saxons and Jutes. The Saxons come from Saxony in Germany, the Jutes from Jutland in Denmark which was German at the time not Scandinavian. However there is a dispute about where the Angles came from I believe. A German friend of mine tells me that it is from an area west of Jutland with the name Engl- something to this day and that it is connected with the word angle 'hook' and angling 'fishing'. No Encyclopaedia I've looked at tells you this. I have a sneaking suspicion that at that time they had heard of Angels from the Romans and decided to call themselves that. (like the Hell's Angels perhaps). This is not impossible. Tribal or national names often have self vaunting or mythological significance. The Amalekites of the Old Testament look like the Arabic word for 'giant' and a tribe of Iraq are called the A'ajiba which would seem to mean 'the wonderful ones'. Who knows Bruce Bruce > Is Kaw the same as Kansa > I'm intrigued > Bruce > Kaw is known by many names, notably Kansa, Konze, Kanza, and Kansas. Perhaps Kansa is the familiar term to you. Growing up in Osage country, a little ways from Kaw City, I always heard the word Kaw. I try to use the word Kansa, though, because it's much closer to the way it used to be said: kkaN'ze or kkaN:'ze. jm Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri Nov 16 02:17:10 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 20:17:10 -0600 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha Message-ID: > there is a dispute about where the Angles > came from I believe. A German friend of mine tells me that it is > from an area west of Jutland with the name Engl- something to this > day and that it is connected with the word angle 'hook' and angling > 'fishing'. No Encyclopaedia I've looked at tells you this. _Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology_ s.v. Angle: < Latin Anglus (pl. Angli) < Germanic *ANgli (whence "English") the people of the Angul district of Slesvig so called from its shape (mod. Angeln) the same word as "angle" ['fishing hook']. Alan From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Nov 21 08:15:56 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 08:15:56 -0000 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: <3BF47726.ECA9A467@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Thank you Alan I suppose this region was so named by the Romans, or perhaps the Germans had adopted this Latin word at the time. Do we know which is most likely? Bruce > there is a dispute about where the Angles > came from I believe. A German friend of mine tells me that it is > from an area west of Jutland with the name Engl- something to this > day and that it is connected with the word angle 'hook' and angling > 'fishing'. No Encyclopaedia I've looked at tells you this. _Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology_ s.v. Angle: < Latin Anglus (pl. Angli) < Germanic *ANgli (whence "English") the people of the Angul district of Slesvig so called from its shape (mod. Angeln) the same word as "angle" ['fishing hook']. Alan Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Nov 21 08:25:08 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 08:25:08 -0000 Subject: Aspects of Lakhota syntax In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does anyone know how I could get hold of a copy of 'Aspects of Lakota Syntax' by Robert D. Van Vallin. Berkeley (unpublished) or if not , is the material available elsewhere ie in Van Vallin and Lapolla Bruce Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Nov 22 14:09:37 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 14:09:37 -0000 Subject: Van Vallin Message-ID: Thank you to all those people who suggested ways of getting hold of the Van Vallin work on Aspects of Lakota Syntax Bruce Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From ioway at earthlink.net Thu Nov 22 16:43:55 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 07:43:55 -0900 Subject: Gordon Marsh Message-ID: > Hi all- I was wondering who out there has done research on the life of Gordon Marsh, Chiwere scholar extraordinaire. I remember seeing a short biography on him in an article in a book of biographies of either linguists, anthropologists, or scholars of American Indians. I photocopied the article, but unfortunately it as well as all of my research materials remain in storage in the lower 48 (I am in Alaska now). I also learned more about him in a series of letters with some scholars (Nancy Lurie? Mildred Mott?). I have microfilms of his work (also in storage) from the American Philosophical Society, which was done by Marsh in several seasons of fieldwork in the 1930s-- he even had a special typewriter created for it. His major professor at Columbia was Franz Boas. Unfortunately as he did his fieldwork, Boas retired, so Marsh lost his major prof. Boas had been interested in collecting everything Native American, but the new paradigm in anthropology and at Columbia was more along the lines of social theory, and Marsh could not find anyone on the faculty who was interested in what he was doing. In frustration, Marsh turned in his typewriter, his notes, etc. to the American Philosophical Society, and went to Alaska to become a Russian Orthodox monk! Years later he went to the southwest, Arizona and/or Texas. I received an email from some former parishioners who remembered attending his Masses in Texas, where he is said to have died in the 1970s or 1980s. As I was doing my research, the thing that really bummed me out was finding that William Whitman published Marsh's work verbatim as his own in 1947. In any case this is the impression I get, since Whitman did not list Marsh as a coauthor, the work is verbatim from Marsh's fieldnotes, Whiteman only acknowledges Marsh in an offhand manner, he uses Marsh' orthography, and in fact the last page of Whitman's article is incomplete... with the rest of the page still to be found in Marsh! At most Whitman should be listed as the editor of that work, not the author. Anyway, I would like to know if anyone has followed Marsh's work (Dr. Furbee? Anyone?). I would like to see an article or something done to set the scholarly record straight, not to bash Whitman but to give Marsh proper recognition. I am sure all scholars know how important this is, and how if the same thing happened to you, you would like if someone eventually set the record straight for you. Lance Foster From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Nov 22 17:15:37 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 17:15:37 -0000 Subject: Thanksgiving Message-ID: Best wishes for thanksgiving to all across the water Bruce Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From rankin at ku.edu Fri Nov 23 15:47:58 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 09:47:58 -0600 Subject: Gordon Marsh Message-ID: Lance, Looks like you've done more research on him than anybody else I know. John Koontz found, I think, that he had gone to a retirement home in the SW. That's where he probably died. Why don't YOU write up his bio? You might even find people in Alaska who knew him there. Bob >I was wondering who out there has done research on the life of Gordon Marsh, Chiwere scholar extraordinaire. I remember seeing a short biography on him in an article in a book of biographies of either linguists, anthropologists, or scholars of American Indians. I photocopied the article, but unfortunately it as well as all of my research materials remain in storage in the lower 48 (I am in Alaska now). I also learned more about him in a series of letters with some scholars (Nancy Lurie? Mildred Mott?). I have microfilms of his work (also in storage) from the American Philosophical Society, which was done by Marsh in several seasons of fieldwork in the 1930s-- he even had a special typewriter created for it. His major professor at Columbia was Franz Boas. Unfortunately as he did his fieldwork, Boas retired, so Marsh lost his major prof. Boas had been interested in collecting everything Native American, but the new paradigm in anthropology and at Columbia was more along the lines of social theory, and Marsh could not find anyone on the faculty who was interested in what he was doing. In frustration, Marsh turned in his typewriter, his notes, etc. to the American Philosophical Society, and went to Alaska to become a Russian Orthodox monk! Years later he went to the southwest, Arizona and/or Texas. I received an email from some former parishioners who remembered attending his Masses in Texas, where he is said to have died in the 1970s or 1980s. As I was doing my research, the thing that really bummed me out was finding that William Whitman published Marsh's work verbatim as his own in 1947. In any case this is the impression I get, since Whitman did not list Marsh as a coauthor, the work is verbatim from Marsh's fieldnotes, Whiteman only acknowledges Marsh in an offhand manner, he uses Marsh' orthography, and in fact the last page of Whitman's article is incomplete... with the rest of the page still to be found in Marsh! At most Whitman should be listed as the editor of that work, not the author. Anyway, I would like to know if anyone has followed Marsh's work (Dr. Furbee? Anyone?). I would like to see an article or something done to set the scholarly record straight, not to bash Whitman but to give Marsh proper recognition. I am sure all scholars know how important this is, and how if the same thing happened to you, you would like if someone eventually set the record straight for you. Lance Foster From rwd0002 at unt.edu Fri Nov 23 17:22:27 2001 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (Reuse Willem J De) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 11:22:27 -0600 Subject: Gordon Marsh in Alaska In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Nov 2001 09:47:58 -0600 "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: > Lance, > > Looks like you've done more research on him than anybody else I know. John > Koontz found, I think, that he had gone to a retirement home in the SW. > That's where he probably died. Why don't YOU write up his bio? You might > even find people in Alaska who knew him there. > > Bob Gordon Marsh is well-known in Alaska for his work on the Aleut language. The folks at ANLC, Fairbanks can tell you all about that. Willem de Reuse From rankin at ku.edu Sat Nov 24 23:02:23 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 17:02:23 -0600 Subject: Attn. Ardis. Message-ID: Ardis, In switching computers I somehow lost track of your email address. I need to contact you about the SSILA web site. Did that ever get straightened out, or do I still need to check? If the latter, please send the details we talked about. Bob From FurbeeL at missouri.edu Mon Nov 26 16:13:44 2001 From: FurbeeL at missouri.edu (Louanna Furbee) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:13:44 -0600 Subject: Gordon Marsh In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Hi Lance, Seconding Bob's comments, I think you should put together >what you turn up into an article or report. I think that it was >someplace in Texas where Marsh retired (maybe to a Greek Orthodox >(Russian Orthodox?) home for retired clergy? Dave Rogles tried to >run him down at one time. You might try him. I don't hae his >address, but I think Jill Davidson Greer does. Her e-mail is JGreer >. Good luck. Louanna >Lance, > >Looks like you've done more research on him than anybody else I know. John >Koontz found, I think, that he had gone to a retirement home in the SW. >That's where he probably died. Why don't YOU write up his bio? You might >even find people in Alaska who knew him there. > >Bob > > >>I was wondering who out there has done research on the life of Gordon >Marsh, Chiwere scholar extraordinaire. I remember seeing a short >biography on him in an article in a book of biographies of either >linguists, anthropologists, or scholars of American Indians. I >photocopied the article, but unfortunately it as well as all of my >research materials remain in storage in the lower 48 (I am in Alaska >now). I also learned more about him in a series of letters with some >scholars (Nancy Lurie? Mildred Mott?). I have microfilms of his work >(also in storage) from the American Philosophical Society, which was >done by Marsh in several seasons of fieldwork in the 1930s-- he even had >a special typewriter created for it. His major professor at Columbia was >Franz Boas. Unfortunately as he did his fieldwork, Boas retired, so >Marsh lost his major prof. Boas had been interested in collecting >everything Native American, but the new paradigm in anthropology and at >Columbia was more along the lines of social theory, and Marsh could not >find anyone on the faculty who was interested in what he was doing. In >frustration, Marsh turned in his typewriter, his notes, etc. to the >American Philosophical Society, and went to Alaska to become a Russian >Orthodox monk! Years later he went to the southwest, Arizona and/or >Texas. I received an email from some former parishioners who remembered >attending his Masses in Texas, where he is said to have died in the >1970s or 1980s. > >As I was doing my research, the thing that really bummed me out was >finding that William Whitman published Marsh's work verbatim as his own >in 1947. In any case this is the impression I get, since Whitman did not >list Marsh as a coauthor, the work is verbatim from Marsh's fieldnotes, >Whiteman only acknowledges Marsh in an offhand manner, he uses Marsh' >orthography, and in fact the last page of Whitman's article is >incomplete... with the rest of the page still to be found in Marsh! At >most Whitman should be listed as the editor of that work, not the >author. > >Anyway, I would like to know if anyone has followed Marsh's work (Dr. >Furbee? Anyone?). I would like to see an article or something done to >set the scholarly record straight, not to bash Whitman but to give Marsh >proper recognition. I am sure all scholars know how important this is, >and how if the same thing happened to you, you would like if someone >eventually set the record straight for you. > >Lance Foster -- Prof. N. Louanna Furbee Department of Anthropology 107 Swallow Hall University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65211 USA Telephones: 573/882-9408 (office) 573/882-4731 (department) 573/446-0932 (home) 573/884-5450 (fax) E-mail: FurbeeL at missouri.edu From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon Nov 26 16:31:00 2001 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 09:31:00 -0700 Subject: Gordon Marsh In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lance -- I actually had some correspondence with Marsh after he retired, but it's all lost now. I am pretty sure that he did indeed retire to a Russian Orthodox institution somewhere in the southwest. His Orthodox name was Rev. Priestmonk Innocent. Are you sure that the sequence of events was from Boas' student to Orthodox priest? Somehow I had the idea that he was already a Priest when he was doing his Chiwere work and studying with Boas. Be careful, too, about the Whitman assertion. I have always believed that the copy of the Whitman manuscript in the Marsh files was exactly that -- a copy of what Whitman wrote. For one thing, the typewriter on which that is written looks quite different from the one Marsh used otherwise. When I found the "missing page" from the Whitman ms. years ago, I intended to write a postscript to to the Voelgelin-Harris publication, but I never got around to it. BEcause of these two notions, either or both of which may be from my imagination or from some "folklore" I picked up along the way, I would add my voice to those who encourage you to try to write the biography. I will look for my correspondence, too, but probably not til after Christmas. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado Campus Box 295 Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Louanna Furbee wrote: > >Hi Lance, Seconding Bob's comments, I think you should put together > >what you turn up into an article or report. I think that it was > >someplace in Texas where Marsh retired (maybe to a Greek Orthodox > >(Russian Orthodox?) home for retired clergy? Dave Rogles tried to > >run him down at one time. You might try him. I don't hae his > >address, but I think Jill Davidson Greer does. Her e-mail is JGreer > >. Good luck. Louanna > > > > >Lance, > > > >Looks like you've done more research on him than anybody else I know. John > >Koontz found, I think, that he had gone to a retirement home in the SW. > >That's where he probably died. Why don't YOU write up his bio? You might > >even find people in Alaska who knew him there. > > > >Bob > > > > > >>I was wondering who out there has done research on the life of Gordon > >Marsh, Chiwere scholar extraordinaire. I remember seeing a short > >biography on him in an article in a book of biographies of either > >linguists, anthropologists, or scholars of American Indians. I > >photocopied the article, but unfortunately it as well as all of my > >research materials remain in storage in the lower 48 (I am in Alaska > >now). I also learned more about him in a series of letters with some > >scholars (Nancy Lurie? Mildred Mott?). I have microfilms of his work > >(also in storage) from the American Philosophical Society, which was > >done by Marsh in several seasons of fieldwork in the 1930s-- he even had > >a special typewriter created for it. His major professor at Columbia was > >Franz Boas. Unfortunately as he did his fieldwork, Boas retired, so > >Marsh lost his major prof. Boas had been interested in collecting > >everything Native American, but the new paradigm in anthropology and at > >Columbia was more along the lines of social theory, and Marsh could not > >find anyone on the faculty who was interested in what he was doing. In > >frustration, Marsh turned in his typewriter, his notes, etc. to the > >American Philosophical Society, and went to Alaska to become a Russian > >Orthodox monk! Years later he went to the southwest, Arizona and/or > >Texas. I received an email from some former parishioners who remembered > >attending his Masses in Texas, where he is said to have died in the > >1970s or 1980s. > > > >As I was doing my research, the thing that really bummed me out was > >finding that William Whitman published Marsh's work verbatim as his own > >in 1947. In any case this is the impression I get, since Whitman did not > >list Marsh as a coauthor, the work is verbatim from Marsh's fieldnotes, > >Whiteman only acknowledges Marsh in an offhand manner, he uses Marsh' > >orthography, and in fact the last page of Whitman's article is > >incomplete... with the rest of the page still to be found in Marsh! At > >most Whitman should be listed as the editor of that work, not the > >author. > > > >Anyway, I would like to know if anyone has followed Marsh's work (Dr. > >Furbee? Anyone?). I would like to see an article or something done to > >set the scholarly record straight, not to bash Whitman but to give Marsh > >proper recognition. I am sure all scholars know how important this is, > >and how if the same thing happened to you, you would like if someone > >eventually set the record straight for you. > > > >Lance Foster > > -- > Prof. N. Louanna Furbee > Department of Anthropology > 107 Swallow Hall > University of Missouri > Columbia, MO 65211 USA > Telephones: 573/882-9408 (office) > 573/882-4731 (department) > 573/446-0932 (home) > 573/884-5450 (fax) > E-mail: FurbeeL at missouri.edu > From linchair at linguistics.ucsb.edu Mon Nov 26 17:15:38 2001 From: linchair at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Carol Genetti) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 09:15:38 -0800 Subject: position available in sociocultural linguistics Message-ID: ** POSITION AVAILABLE ** Please note that we are actively accepting applications for the following position, which will remain open until filled. Interviews will be conducted at the meetings of the American Anthropological Association on 11/29-12/1/2001, the Linguistic Society of America on 1/3-1/5/2002, and the International Conference on Austronesian Linguistics on 1/8-1/11/2002. University of California, Santa Barbara. The UCSB Linguistics Department seeks to hire a specialist in social and/or cultural approaches to language. The appointment will be tenure-track at the Assistant Professor level, effective July 1, 2002. Candidates should have an active research program in their area of specialization. Experience in social/cultural research incorporating linguistic analysis of naturally occurring language use is essential. We are especially interested in candidates whose research shows theoretical implications for one or more related disciplines such as anthropology, sociology, or cognitive science, as well as linguistics, and who can interact with colleagues and students in interdisciplinary programs at UCSB such as Language, Interaction, and Social Organization (LISO) and Cognitive Science. Candidates should have demonstrated excellence in teaching, and will be expected to teach a range of courses at graduate and undergraduate levels, including courses in linguistic anthropology and sociolinguistics. Ph.D. normally required by the time of appointment. Applicants should submit curriculum vitae, statement of research interests, 1-2 samples of published work, and full contact information for three academic references to the Search Committee, Linguistics Department, UCSB, Santa Barbara, CA 93106. Inquiries may be addressed to the above address or via email to lingsearch at linguistics.ucsb.edu. Tentative deadline November 15, 2001; the position will remain open until filled. Preliminary interviews will be conducted at the annual meetings of the American Anthropological Association, the International Conference on Austronesian Linguistics, and the Linguistic Society of America, although attendance is not required for consideration. Our department has a genuine commitment to diversity; members of underrepresented groups are especially encouraged to apply. UCSB is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action employer. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ioway at earthlink.net Mon Nov 26 17:25:29 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 08:25:29 -0900 Subject: Gordon Marsh Message-ID: Hi to all those who responded to my Marsh inquiry-- I will be very careful about the Marsh-Whitman situation and will assert nothing more until it is all cleared up. I unfortunately do not have my Marsh info (mainly the 3 microfilm rolls) so that part will have to wait, since it is all in storage in Montana. I will however try to see what I can learn about his life here in Alaska.. thanks for the leads! Lance ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Lance -- > I actually had some correspondence with Marsh after he retired, > but it's all lost now. I am pretty sure that he did indeed retire to a > Russian Orthodox institution somewhere in the southwest. His Orthodox > name was Rev. Priestmonk Innocent. Are you sure that the sequence of > events was from Boas' student to Orthodox priest? Somehow I had the idea > that he was already a Priest when he was doing his Chiwere work and > studying with Boas. > Be careful, too, about the Whitman assertion. I have always > believed that the copy of the Whitman manuscript in the Marsh files was > exactly that -- a copy of what Whitman wrote. For one thing, the > typewriter on which that is written looks quite different from the one > Marsh used otherwise. When I found the "missing page" from the Whitman > ms. years ago, I intended to write a postscript to to the Voelgelin-Harris > publication, but I never got around to it. > BEcause of these two notions, either or both of which may be from > my imagination or from some "folklore" I picked up along the way, I would > add my voice to those who encourage you to try to write the biography. I > will look for my correspondence, too, but probably not til after > Christmas. > > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > Campus Box 295 > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Louanna Furbee wrote: > > > >Hi Lance, Seconding Bob's comments, I think you should put together > > >what you turn up into an article or report. I think that it was > > >someplace in Texas where Marsh retired (maybe to a Greek Orthodox > > >(Russian Orthodox?) home for retired clergy? Dave Rogles tried to > > >run him down at one time. You might try him. I don't hae his > > >address, but I think Jill Davidson Greer does. Her e-mail is JGreer > > >. Good luck. Louanna > > > > > > > > >Lance, > > > > > >Looks like you've done more research on him than anybody else I know. John > > >Koontz found, I think, that he had gone to a retirement home in the SW. > > >That's where he probably died. Why don't YOU write up his bio? You might > > >even find people in Alaska who knew him there. > > > > > >Bob > > > > > > > > >>I was wondering who out there has done research on the life of Gordon > > >Marsh, Chiwere scholar extraordinaire. I remember seeing a short > > >biography on him in an article in a book of biographies of either > > >linguists, anthropologists, or scholars of American Indians. I > > >photocopied the article, but unfortunately it as well as all of my > > >research materials remain in storage in the lower 48 (I am in Alaska > > >now). I also learned more about him in a series of letters with some > > >scholars (Nancy Lurie? Mildred Mott?). I have microfilms of his work > > >(also in storage) from the American Philosophical Society, which was > > >done by Marsh in several seasons of fieldwork in the 1930s-- he even had > > >a special typewriter created for it. His major professor at Columbia was > > >Franz Boas. Unfortunately as he did his fieldwork, Boas retired, so > > >Marsh lost his major prof. Boas had been interested in collecting > > >everything Native American, but the new paradigm in anthropology and at > > >Columbia was more along the lines of social theory, and Marsh could not > > >find anyone on the faculty who was interested in what he was doing. In > > >frustration, Marsh turned in his typewriter, his notes, etc. to the > > >American Philosophical Society, and went to Alaska to become a Russian > > >Orthodox monk! Years later he went to the southwest, Arizona and/or > > >Texas. I received an email from some former parishioners who remembered > > >attending his Masses in Texas, where he is said to have died in the > > >1970s or 1980s. > > > > > >As I was doing my research, the thing that really bummed me out was > > >finding that William Whitman published Marsh's work verbatim as his own > > >in 1947. In any case this is the impression I get, since Whitman did not > > >list Marsh as a coauthor, the work is verbatim from Marsh's fieldnotes, > > >Whiteman only acknowledges Marsh in an offhand manner, he uses Marsh' > > >orthography, and in fact the last page of Whitman's article is > > >incomplete... with the rest of the page still to be found in Marsh! At > > >most Whitman should be listed as the editor of that work, not the > > >author. > > > > > >Anyway, I would like to know if anyone has followed Marsh's work (Dr. > > >Furbee? Anyone?). I would like to see an article or something done to > > >set the scholarly record straight, not to bash Whitman but to give Marsh > > >proper recognition. I am sure all scholars know how important this is, > > >and how if the same thing happened to you, you would like if someone > > >eventually set the record straight for you. > > > > > >Lance Foster > > > > -- > > Prof. N. Louanna Furbee > > Department of Anthropology > > 107 Swallow Hall > > University of Missouri > > Columbia, MO 65211 USA > > Telephones: 573/882-9408 (office) > > 573/882-4731 (department) > > 573/446-0932 (home) > > 573/884-5450 (fax) > > E-mail: FurbeeL at missouri.edu > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Nov 26 17:56:17 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:56:17 -0700 Subject: Gordon Marsh In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > I actually had some correspondence with Marsh after he retired, > but it's all lost now. I am pretty sure that he did indeed retire to a > Russian Orthodox institution somewhere in the southwest. His Orthodox > name was Rev. Priestmonk Innocent. I'll add to the public record (I've already mentioned it to Lance) that I corresponded with him about the Hahn Ponca ms. in his APS files. He didn't actually say it was Hahn's but said that though his memory wasn't what it had been, he didn't recall ever working with Ponca and definitely remembered Ms. Hahn. They and some others went to a PowWow together on one occasion he recalled. I think he even gave the date, so his memory seemed fine to a stranger to it! I can never remember dates! For example, I won't remember what year I corresponded with him until I locate the letter. Anyway, I wrote back to ask more specifically if he - Marhs/Innocent - though that the ms. might be Hahn's, perhaps borrowed to make a typed copy of it (there was a partial typed copy including an interpolated note by GM with the original), but he never answered. I believe he was in an Orthodox facility for retired priest-monks in Phoenix, AZ, at the time. I suppose this would be a sort of monastery! I'm not sure where I got the address. Perhaps from David? I believe it was Dale Nichols, a fellow student at CU who worked briefly with Ioway-Otoe, who told me that some of the people she talked to remembered Marsh kindly, and described him as living, with a younger brother I think, in a tent in a creek bottom. Incidentally, I believe she also said that they remembered him as having red hair, though I guess hair colors are defined in culturally-relative terms. (That's a a couple of dubitatives within a quotative!) That and the presence of the brother might help determine if they were remembering Marsh/Innocent or someone else. It would have been at least 50 years afterwards that she received these memories, now passed on at least third hand. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Nov 29 17:09:50 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:09:50 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Omaha concordances (fwd) Message-ID: These materials were prepared by Matthew Dryer for the use of Ardis Eschenberg, based on the Siouan Archives keying of the Dorsey texts. He's kindly agreed to let me post the information on the list, too, as I thought perhaps others would also be interested. He adds "If after all that [reference to typos in the texts JEK], you want to tell others about it, that's fine, though you might also want to mention that the accent mark only comes out OK on Windows (on my Mac it comes out as a capital Y with two lines through it)." ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 08:53:37 -0700 From: John E. Koontz To: john.koontz at colorado.edu Subject: Fwd: Omaha concordances >Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:25:07 -0500 (EST) >From: Matthew S Dryer >To: koontz at boulder.nist.gov >Subject: Omaha concordances > > >John, > >I have posted to my web site for Ardis to download, three huge >concordances I ran for the Dorsey texts, and thought I'd give you the URL >in case you want to download them. Details below. > >Matthew Dryer > >Concordances of Dorsey's Omaha Texts > >These concordances are meant to be looked at on one's computer screen. >They are far too long to print out. (If you tried, they would be over >20,000 pages.) > >There are three concordances, the main one (Omaha, alphabetical), the >reverse Omaha one, and the English-based one. Each concordance contains >20 or more documents, one for each letter. Each concordance also contains >an additional document with the suffix "list" (before the .rtf suffix) >which is a list of all the words in the order they occur in that >concordance and their frequency in the Dorsey texts. > >They are all RTF documents. Except for the list documents, they must be >opened from within Microsoft Word on a Mac. I don't know if this is also >necessary in Windows. The choice of nonstandard characters is based on >what seems to work in Windows (the accent mark does not come out right on >a Mac). A tilde using its own space is used for the nasalization symbol. > >There are three StuffIt documents, one for each of the three concourdance. >Each will expland into a folder containing the 20 or more documents making >up that concordance. Each of the three StuffIt documents is about 4MB. >When unstuffed, these three concordances require a total of about 80MB of >hard disk space. > >The three concordances are at the following URL's: > >http://wings.buffalo.edu/linguistics/dryer/omaha.conc.sit >http://wings.buffalo.edu/linguistics/dryer/omaha.conc.rev.sit >http://wings.buffalo.edu/linguistics/dryer/omaha.conc.engl.sit > >A list of the documents in each concordance: > >The main concordance: > >omaha.conc.a.rtf >omaha.conc.b.rtf >omaha.conc.c.rtf >omaha.conc.d.rtf >omaha.conc.e.rtf >omaha.conc.g.rtf >omaha.conc.h.rtf >omaha.conc.i.rtf >omaha.conc.j.rtf >omaha.conc.k.rtf >omaha.conc.list.rtf >omaha.conc.m.rtf >omaha.conc.n.rtf >omaha.conc.o.rtf >omaha.conc.p.rtf >omaha.conc.s.rtf >omaha.conc.t.rtf >omaha.conc.u.rtf >omaha.conc.w.rtf >omaha.conc.x.rtf >omaha.conc.z.rtf > >The reverse concordance: > >omaha.conc.rev.a.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.b.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.c.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.d.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.e.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.g.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.h.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.i.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.k.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.list.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.m.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.n.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.o.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.p.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.s.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.t.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.u.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.w.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.x.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.z.rtf > >The English-based concordance: > >omaha.conc.engl.a.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.b.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.c.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.d.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.e.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.f.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.g.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.h.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.i.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.j.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.k.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.l.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.list.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.m.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.n.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.o.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.p.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.q.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.r.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.s.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.t.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.u.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.v.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.w.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.y.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.z.rtf From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Nov 29 17:25:18 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:25:18 -0700 Subject: Windows and Mac SIT (StuffIt) Archives Message-ID: You can get a StuffIt unstuffer for dealing with the concordance SIT rchives at http://www.stuffit.com/expander/index.html. Do a custom install and only install the expander. Don't let it handle files with other extensions unless you want to use it instead of whatever unzippers, etc., you already use. From jmcbride at kayserv.net Tue Nov 13 19:46:57 2001 From: jmcbride at kayserv.net (Justin McBride) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 13:46:57 -0600 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha Message-ID: Hello, everyone! We have a question or two for the Dhegihanists out there. We at the Kaw Nation are working on an elementary level curriculum for Kansa. We would like to be able to include in the vocabulary as many common classroom words and phrases as we can find. Unfortunately, we have found no word for 'number.' Can anyone provide me with Osage, Omaha-Ponca, or Quapaw cognates? We would prefer not to neologize if a related word exists in one or more of the others. Furthermore, the Kansa word 'count' seems very odd to me. 'I count' is 'abla,' and 'you count' is 'yabla.' No problem there. The imperative form is 'yawa.' These are the only attested forms of the verbs I have seen. I am fairly new to the Dhegiha verb, and find myself at a loss at figuring out what is happening here. What is the rest of the conjugation? I am not even sure what the 3rd Sing form would be. I am utterly stymied in just two syllables! For shame. This is my first posting to the list, so please bear with my ignorance. I am not even sure of the e-rthography. I've read through other posts that seem to use very similar systems. Is there an archived post of any or all orthography conventions within the email confines of the list? Thanks, Justin McBride jtmcbr at kayserv.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu Wed Nov 14 00:27:05 2001 From: rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu (rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:27:05 -0600 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha Message-ID: Hello Justin! Thanks for your post, and welcome to the list! I'm a student in Mark Awakuni-Swetland's class on Omaha. We have also been trying to come up with a curriculum for teaching the language, while desparately trying to figure it out ourselves, so we can sympathize with your plight! I hope we can keep in touch with you and compare notes. In Omaha-Ponca, the basic word for 'count' is dha'wa. The conjugation we have seems to be: dha'wa s/he counts bdha'wa I count hna'wa you count (the 'h' may be silent.) aNdha'wa we count This is a pretty regular set, and matches your imperative form 'yawa'. What surprises me is your first- and second- person forms 'abla' and 'yabla'. We do have a prefix wa- which generically substitutes for the specific objects that would otherwise precede the verb. Thus, for our English sense of counting in general, rather than counting fish, houses, people, stars, or whatever, it would probably actually come out something like: wadha'wa s/he counts wabdha'wa I count etc. I'm not sure we've found an abstract term 'number' yet, though the Omaha dictionary compiled by Mark and Elizabeth Stabler many years ago translates 'number' as 'wadhawa'. Other than ablaut issues, and a few irregular common verbs, the command form and the third person singular are normally the same. The command form is the verb, ending in -a if it ablauts, followed by the command particle, -ga for men and -a for women. I believe that dha'wa is a regular, non-ablauting -a stem verb, so we can just use it as it is. ShaN'ge dha'wa ga! Count the horses! (man speaking) Wadha'wa ga! Count! (man speaking) ShaN'ge dha'wa a! Count the horses! (19th century woman speaking) ShaN'ge dha'wa ya! Count the horses! (20th century woman speaking) For the orthography on this list, check out John Koontz' excellent web site at http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/default.htm and click down to FAQ, and then "What is NetSiouan?" Good luck! Rory "Justin McBride" @lists.colorado.edu on 11/13/2001 01:46:57 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu To: cc: Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha Hello, everyone! We?have a question or two for the Dhegihanists out there. We at the Kaw?Nation are working on?an elementary level curriculum for Kansa.? We would like to be able to include in the vocabulary?as many common classroom words and phrases as we can find.? Unfortunately, we have found no word for 'number.'? Can anyone?provide me with Osage, Omaha-Ponca, or Quapaw cognates???We would?prefer?not to neologize if a related word exists in one or more of the others. Furthermore, the Kansa word?'count' seems very odd to me.? 'I count' is 'abla,' and 'you count' is 'yabla.'? No problem there.??The imperative form is 'yawa.'??These are the only attested forms of the verbs I have seen. I am fairly new to the Dhegiha verb, and find myself at a loss at figuring out what is happening here.? What is the rest of the conjugation? I am not even sure what the 3rd Sing form would be.? I am utterly stymied?in?just two syllables!? For shame. This is my first posting to the list, so please bear with my ignorance.? I am not even sure of the e-rthography.? I've read through other posts?that seem to use very similar systems.? Is there an archived post of any or all orthography conventions within the email confines of the list? Thanks, Justin McBride jtmcbr at kayserv.net From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Nov 14 00:49:52 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:49:52 -0600 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha Message-ID: > I'm not sure we've found an abstract term 'number' yet I wouldn't be surprised (in general terms) if 'number' were a relatively unimportant word. I can't think of many situations requiring it in cultures without a formal mathematics. Alternatives are easily found for expressions like "a large number of". It certainly would come in handy in teaching, though: "let's work on numbers today". An obvious alternative here--"counting"--seems worth looking into: is "count" as noun or verb more common than "number"? Alan From rankin at ku.edu Wed Nov 14 03:41:38 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 21:41:38 -0600 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha Message-ID: > I'm not sure we've found an abstract term 'number' yet >I wouldn't be surprised (in general terms) if 'number' were a relatively unimportant word. Yes, note that "number" in English is borrowed from Fr. nombre < Latin numerus. There doesn't seem to be a real Anglo-Saxon equivalent. There is 'to tell', meaning 'count' (as in a bank teller), but a 'tale' isn't a number; it's restricted to recounting verbal material, not numerals. I'd be surprised to find a noun for number in any Siouan language -- or most other languages for that matter. I guess Rory's 'wadhawa' "something [you] count" is as good a noun as any. Kaw would be *wayawa. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Nov 14 07:24:20 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 00:24:20 -0700 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I guess Rory's 'wadhawa' "something [you] count" is as good a noun as > any. Kaw would be *wayawa. I wondered about we'dhawa (we'yawa?) 'with which you count', though perhaps that would be a closer equivalent to 'numeral'. (This would definitely be at least an etymologically long e, too.) In consideration of Alan Hartley's comments, I'd guess you'd say 'let's count things', which would, in fact, require wadhawa. I suspect the Kaw forms without -wa are simply somewhat contracted. A w is easily lost between vowels in many languages. In that case the final a should probably sound rather long, and we all know how easy it is to miss long vowels ... And speaking of etymology, a verb root beginning in w- is a little unusual, isn't it? For a Mississippi Valley Siouan language, that is. JEK From rankin at ku.edu Wed Nov 14 15:17:07 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:17:07 -0600 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha Message-ID: >I wondered about we'dhawa (we'yawa?) 'with which you count', though perhaps that would be a closer equivalent to 'numeral'. Actually, that word exists in Kaw, but it means 'counting stick' and it is an artifact in the possession of one of the clans. >I suspect the Kaw forms without -wa are simply somewhat contracted. A w is easily lost between vowels in many languages. In that case the final a should probably sound rather long, and we all know how easy it is to miss long vowels ... Probably. But the 2nd person form with the -bl- is simply a mistake someone somewhere along the line made. they've formed the 2nd person on the basis of the irregular 1st person! >And speaking of etymology, a verb root beginning in w- is a little unusual, isn't it? For a Mississippi Valley Siouan language, that is. Yes, that would be strange. I wonder of the ya- here is the instrumental or maybe just the 1st syllable of the root? So far I have found Osage and Omaha-Ponca cognates. Bob From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Nov 14 16:38:27 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:38:27 -0000 Subject: How far/how long? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does anyone know the Lakota equivalent of 'how far' in distance. I presume tohanyan is something like that. But I wonder how one would say 'how far is it to Rapid city from here?' and indeed would one say that or would one say 'how many days march is it?' or something. I am surprised that in none of my texts is there any such sentence? It is the sort of thing a foreigner in Lakota contry might ask and Lakota would not need to. Any hints from other Siouan languages. Bruce On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I guess Rory's 'wadhawa' "something [you] count" is as good a noun as > any. Kaw would be *wayawa. I wondered about we'dhawa (we'yawa?) 'with which you count', though perhaps that would be a closer equivalent to 'numeral'. (This would definitely be at least an etymologically long e, too.) In consideration of Alan Hartley's comments, I'd guess you'd say 'let's count things', which would, in fact, require wadhawa. I suspect the Kaw forms without -wa are simply somewhat contracted. A w is easily lost between vowels in many languages. In that case the final a should probably sound rather long, and we all know how easy it is to miss long vowels ... And speaking of etymology, a verb root beginning in w- is a little unusual, isn't it? For a Mississippi Valley Siouan language, that is. JEK Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Wed Nov 14 16:56:40 2001 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:56:40 -0700 Subject: How far/how long? In-Reply-To: <3BF29E03.17252.1EEA364@localhost> Message-ID: I have only a couple of guesses, not definitive answers, for Bruce's inquiry, but that may be a place to start. I think tohaNyaN is both 'how far' and 'how long'. 'How far is it from here to Rapid City" will require some native speaker insight, I think, because the expression "north of X" uses iwaziyataNhaN for 'north' -- Pierre kiN iwaziyataNhaN 'north of Pierre', and I have trouble reconciling the meaning with the constituency there. It looks like it should mean 'from north of Pierre'. For the 'how many days march is it' I expect an expression with the verb caN 'to be a 24 hour period', e.g. topa can '(for) four days.' I'll be watching for better-informed comments on these musings. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado Campus Box 295 Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 14 Nov 2001 bi1 at soas.ac.uk wrote: > Does anyone know the Lakota equivalent of 'how far' in distance. I > presume tohanyan is something like that. But I wonder how one > would say 'how far is it to Rapid city from here?' and indeed would > one say that or would one say 'how many days march is it?' or > something. I am surprised that in none of my texts is there any > such sentence? It is the sort of thing a foreigner in Lakota contry > might ask and Lakota would not need to. Any hints from other > Siouan languages. > > Bruce > > On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > I guess Rory's 'wadhawa' "something [you] count" is as good a noun as > > any. Kaw would be *wayawa. > > I wondered about we'dhawa (we'yawa?) 'with which you count', though > perhaps that would be a closer equivalent to 'numeral'. (This would > definitely be at least an etymologically long e, too.) > > In consideration of Alan Hartley's comments, I'd guess you'd say 'let's > count things', which would, in fact, require wadhawa. > > I suspect the Kaw forms without -wa are simply somewhat contracted. A w > is easily lost between vowels in many languages. In that case the final a > should probably sound rather long, and we all know how easy it is to miss > long vowels ... > > And speaking of etymology, a verb root beginning in w- is a little > unusual, isn't it? For a Mississippi Valley Siouan language, that is. > > JEK > > Dr. Bruce Ingham > Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies > SOAS > From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Nov 14 17:08:41 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 17:08:41 -0000 Subject: How far/how long? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David thanks for the thoughts. I remember Pierre ki iwaziyataNhaN na Mini S^os^e ki iwiyohpeyataNhaN from your course. I would take it that it means 'north from Pierre and West from the Missouri'. It is not unlike Arabic which would jinubin min al Kuwait 'south-ish from Kuwait'. Yes I would not be surprised if it was Mni Luzahan Otunwahe etan numpacan yaNke or something like it. All native speakers please forgive my presumptioin and do not laugh to loud. I await enlightenment. Bruce I have only a couple of guesses, not definitive answers, for Bruce's inquiry, but that may be a place to start. I think tohaNyaN is both 'how far' and 'how long'. 'How far is it from here to Rapid City" will require some native speaker insight, I think, because the expression "north of X" uses iwaziyataNhaN for 'north' -- Pierre kiN iwaziyataNhaN 'north of Pierre', and I have trouble reconciling the meaning with the constituency there. It looks like it should mean 'from north of Pierre'. For the 'how many days march is it' I expect an expression with the verb caN 'to be a 24 hour period', e.g. topa can '(for) four days.' I'll be watching for better-informed comments on these musings. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado Campus Box 295 Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 14 Nov 2001 bi1 at soas.ac.uk wrote: > Does anyone know the Lakota equivalent of 'how far' in distance. I > presume tohanyan is something like that. But I wonder how one > would say 'how far is it to Rapid city from here?' and indeed would > one say that or would one say 'how many days march is it?' or > something. I am surprised that in none of my texts is there any > such sentence? It is the sort of thing a foreigner in Lakota contry > might ask and Lakota would not need to. Any hints from other > Siouan languages. > > Bruce > > On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > I guess Rory's 'wadhawa' "something [you] count" is as good a noun as > > any. Kaw would be *wayawa. > > I wondered about we'dhawa (we'yawa?) 'with which you count', though > perhaps that would be a closer equivalent to 'numeral'. (This would > definitely be at least an etymologically long e, too.) > > In consideration of Alan Hartley's comments, I'd guess you'd say 'let's > count things', which would, in fact, require wadhawa. > > I suspect the Kaw forms without -wa are simply somewhat contracted. A w > is easily lost between vowels in many languages. In that case the final a > should probably sound rather long, and we all know how easy it is to miss > long vowels ... > > And speaking of etymology, a verb root beginning in w- is a little > unusual, isn't it? For a Mississippi Valley Siouan language, that is. > > JEK > > Dr. Bruce Ingham > Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies > SOAS > Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From jmcbride at kayserv.net Wed Nov 14 18:54:53 2001 From: jmcbride at kayserv.net (Justin McBride) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:54:53 -0600 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha Message-ID: > Actually, that word exists in Kaw, but it means 'counting stick' and it is > an artifact in the possession of one of the clans. Exactly, I initially took 'yawa' to be the root, and assumed a form something like 'weyawa' might be the word I was looking for, where 'we-' is really 'wa-' nominalizer + '-i-' instrumental. I searched the dictionary for something like this and actually found it. Unfortunately it seemed to be a reserved word for a cultural item--not exactly something that I'd want to use in a classroom setting. I wondered briefly about switching the instrumental to '-ya-' 'by mouth' to tweak the meaning, and maybe adding a helper or two, such as 'iye' 'speech' or something to that effect. I came up with the curious phrase 'iye wayayawa.' Is it just me? ...This seems kinda silly. I'm wondering if it is even possible to use instrumental 'ya' to refer to speech. Does it generally invoke the sense of physical mouth mechanics, such as blowing or chewing? I'm thinking the speech-mouth connection may be somewhat romanticized or just out-of-place. > >I suspect the Kaw forms without -wa are simply somewhat contracted. A w > is easily lost between vowels in many languages. In that case the final > a should probably sound rather long, and we all know how easy it is to > miss long vowels ... > > Probably. But the 2nd person form with the -bl- is simply a mistake someone > somewhere along the line made. they've formed the 2nd person on the basis > of the irregular 1st person! On a somewhat related note, I think you've (Dr. Rankin, that is) shown me some interesting Kansa examples of redundancy in 1st & 2nd persons in which two different sets of prefixes are used at the same time. (I can't think of any of these examples off hand). For instance, in the above example, you posited 'yahnawa' as an analogous possibility. Do such constructions more often involve combinations of A-Active Regular Conjugation and (Y-) R-Stem Conjugation? Does this ever occur with any of the less productive conjugations? Just curious, here... not particularly helpful in this situation. > > >And speaking of etymology, a verb root beginning in w- is a little > unusual, isn't it? For a Mississippi Valley Siouan language, that is. > > Yes, that would be strange. I wonder of the ya- here is the instrumental or > maybe just the 1st syllable of the root? So far I have found Osage and > Omaha-Ponca cognates. > This makes my original construction all the more ridiculous! Oddly, I recognized the fact that 'ya' is an instrumental, but never considered it would be anything other than part of the verb root in this case. Are the instrumental prefixes pretty consistent between dialects? Specifically, is the 'by mouth' prefix found in all of them in roughly the same form? jm From rankin at ku.edu Wed Nov 14 20:17:03 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:17:03 -0600 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha Message-ID: > I wondered briefly about switching the instrumental to '-ya-' 'by mouth' to tweak the meaning, and maybe adding a helper or two, such as 'iye' 'speech' or something to that effect. I came up with the curious phrase 'iye wayayawa.' Is it just me? ...This seems > kinda silly. I'm wondering if it is even possible to use instrumental 'ya' to refer to speech. Does it generally invoke the sense of physical mouth mechanics, such as blowing or chewing? Yes, you can definitely use ya- with speech-related verbs. It can be either physical or metaphorical use of the mouth. Check out all the ya- entries in the dictionary and you'll see a bunch. > ...some interesting Kansa examples of redundancy in 1st & 2nd persons in which two different sets of prefixes are used at the same time. > Do such constructions more often involve combinations of A-Active Regular Conjugation and (Y-) R-Stem Conjugation? Does this ever occur with any of the less productive conjugations? Yes. I've heard yashkaaxe 'you make/do' where both ya- and sh- are pronominals. Probably lots of others. The duplicate pronominal always precedes and is the "regular" one though. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Nov 15 03:53:56 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 20:53:56 -0700 Subject: How far/how long? In-Reply-To: <3BF29E03.17252.1EEA364@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Nov 2001 bi1 at soas.ac.uk wrote: > Does anyone know the Lakota equivalent of 'how far' in distance. I > presume tohanyan is something like that. But I wonder how one > would say 'how far is it to Rapid city from here?' and indeed would > one say that or would one say 'how many days march is it?' or > something. I am surprised that in none of my texts is there any > such sentence? It is the sort of thing a foreigner in Lakota contry > might ask and Lakota would not need to. Any hints from other > Siouan languages. Well, for Omaha-Ponca a close match in syntax would be. There's no "from here" or "to there" phrase. Dorsey 1890:690.4-5 S^e' SiN'de Gdhe'ska a=thaN' gdhiN' e'=iN=the e' iNwiN'dh(a) that Spotted Tail how far he sits perhaps that to tell me idha=i ga! send it IMPm Note that a=thaN' (stress seems irregular?) is analogous to to=haN' yaN a is the indefinite, and the particle thaN is actually cognate with haN, one of various cases where the rare OP th corresponds to Dakotan h, like thi : hi 'to arrive there'. There doesn't seem to be any analogue of the -ya (nasalized in context?). There are a couple of additional examples in the Dorsey texts, but they are relatives (as far as ...). From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Nov 15 04:17:32 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 21:17:32 -0700 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: <003101c16d3d$de360780$2d77f0c7@kayserv.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Justin McBride wrote: > Unfortunately it seemed to be a reserved word for a cultural item--not > exactly something that I'd want to use in a classroom setting. While I wouldn't be surprised is the existence of something like we'yawa blocked a more productive use, I'm not sure it would. We don't know a lot about the productivity of the grammatical prefixes in Mississippi Valley Siouan. > I wondered briefly about switching the instrumental to '-ya-' 'by > mouth' to tweak the meaning, and maybe adding a helper or two, such as > 'iye' 'speech' or something to that effect. I came up with the > curious phrase 'iye wayayawa.' Is it just me? ...This seems kinda > silly. I'm wondering if it is even possible to use instrumental 'ya' > to refer to speech. Does it generally invoke the sense of physical > mouth mechanics, such as blowing or chewing? I'm thinking the > speech-mouth connection may be somewhat romanticized or just > out-of-place. Omaha has forms like dhaxu'be 'to speak in wonder of' and dhas^i'ge 'to speak against' (glosses from Dorsey's texts). > On a somewhat related note, I think you've (Dr. Rankin, that is) shown me > some interesting Kansa examples of redundancy in 1st & 2nd persons in which > two different sets of prefixes are used at the same time. (I can't think of > any of these examples off hand). For instance, in the above example, you > posited 'yahnawa' as an analogous possibility. Do such constructions more > often involve combinations of A-Active Regular Conjugation and (Y-) R-Stem > Conjugation? Does this ever occur with any of the less productive > conjugations? Modern Omaha has regular + d-stem inflecion of daNbe 'to see'. LaFlesche gives regular + b-stem (p-stem) for "boN" (i.e., poN) in Osage. It's actually a fairly common situation. Omaha-Ponca have idhappahaN, is^pahaN, ibahaN for 'I/you/(s)he know(s)', with double inflection only in the first person. > would be anything other than part of the verb root in this case. Are the > instrumental prefixes pretty consistent between dialects? Specifically, is > the 'by mouth' prefix found in all of them in roughly the same form? The instrumentals are pretty much the same across the family. There's a certain amount of irregular variation in form, confusion of similar cases, or merging or splitting into two variants, but no wholesale innovation or loss. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Nov 15 04:21:43 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 21:21:43 -0700 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Justin wrote: > Do such constructions more often involve combinations of A-Active Regular > Conjugation and (Y-) R-Stem Conjugation? Does this ever occur with any of > the less productive conjugations? I should add that doubling with *r-stem (Kansa y- or OP dh-stems) is somewhat unusual in DHegiha (or, anyway, Omaha-Ponca), but I think it occurs wholesale in recent Ioway-Otoe, where I gather that regular + r-stem is the rule for the r-stem paradigms, though that wasn't the case in somewhat older materials. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Nov 15 05:23:10 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 22:23:10 -0700 Subject: More on Number; Inflected Q/INDEF Words Message-ID: I checked "number" and "quantity" in Omaha-Ponca the Dorsey texts and, in a nice concatenation with Bruce's query on "how far" I notice that, except for cases where "great number" is an English idiom for "many," it seems that "number" always occurs in translations of correlatives based on the =naN stem, e.g., a'=naN 'how many', but e'=kki=naN 'an equal (or sufficient) number or quanity' (-kki- reciprocal/reflexive), e'=naN 'that quantity', and so on. I suppose you could say something like 'we will learn to say how many' for 'we will learn numbers'. Incidentally: a'= naN= i 'how many are they' (JOD 1890:297.11) INDEF many PLURAL So, you can inflect this indefinite/interrogative stem for number. For that matter: a'wa= the= di= i 'in what place are they' (JOD 1890:70.10) INDEF-OF-2 DEF-ART LOC PLURAL And: JOD 90:587.1: e=a'thaN=i 'why are they' JOD 90:661.8 e=aN'=i 'how are they' JOD 90:46.14 awa'=hnaNkha=s^e 'where are you who ...' There latter case has personal inflection with the second person plural of the article dhiNkHe 'the sitting'. From ullrich.j at soupvm.cz Thu Nov 15 06:20:37 2001 From: ullrich.j at soupvm.cz (Jan F. Ullrich) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 07:20:37 +0100 Subject: How far/how long? In-Reply-To: <3BF29E03.17252.1EEA364@localhost> Message-ID: I am pretty sure I remember the native speakers saying something like: TohaN' thehaN' yathi' he? How far from here do you live. Besides, I think the time adverbs like tohaN'yaN are adverbs of place/distance at the same time, e.g. i'thehaN - long from / far from, hehaN'yaN - that long (time) / that far. So I presume Bruce's question could likely be: How far is it to Rapid City from here? Rapid City letaN' tohaN'yaN yaNka' he? Or Rapid City letaN' tohaN' thehaN' yaNka' he? Rapid City is ten miles from here. Mnilu'zahe OtxuN'wahe letaN' makhi'yutxa wikce'mna (hehaN'yaN) yaNke'. Jan PS: I am going to search some of my texts and audio recordings for evidence. Jan F. Ullrich ullrich.j at soupvm.cz www.inext.cz/siouan Jan F. Ullrich ullrich.j at soupvm.cz www.inext.cz/siouan > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of bi1 at soas.ac.uk > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 5:38 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: How far/how long? > > > Does anyone know the Lakota equivalent of 'how far' in distance. I > presume tohanyan is something like that. But I wonder how one > would say 'how far is it to Rapid city from here?' and indeed would > one say that or would one say 'how many days march is it?' or > something. I am surprised that in none of my texts is there any > such sentence? It is the sort of thing a foreigner in Lakota contry > might ask and Lakota would not need to. Any hints from other > Siouan languages. > > Bruce > From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Nov 15 12:56:26 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 12:56:26 -0000 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: <003101c16d3d$de360780$2d77f0c7@kayserv.net> Message-ID: Is Kaw the same as Kansa I'm intrigued Bruce > Actually, that word exists in Kaw, but it means 'counting stick' and it is > an artifact in the possession of one of the clans. Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From jmcbride at kayserv.net Thu Nov 15 15:22:18 2001 From: jmcbride at kayserv.net (Justin McBride) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 09:22:18 -0600 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha Message-ID: > Is Kaw the same as Kansa > I'm intrigued > Bruce > Kaw is known by many names, notably Kansa, Konze, Kanza, and Kansas. Perhaps Kansa is the familiar term to you. Growing up in Osage country, a little ways from Kaw City, I always heard the word Kaw. I try to use the word Kansa, though, because it's much closer to the way it used to be said: kkaN'ze or kkaN:'ze. jm From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Nov 15 18:31:12 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 18:31:12 -0000 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: <002201c16de9$5288f740$2d77f0c7@kayserv.net> Message-ID: Thanks Jim KhaNza is what they are called in Lakota think. Not far from the original,name. We English are formed from the Angles, Saxons and Jutes. The Saxons come from Saxony in Germany, the Jutes from Jutland in Denmark which was German at the time not Scandinavian. However there is a dispute about where the Angles came from I believe. A German friend of mine tells me that it is from an area west of Jutland with the name Engl- something to this day and that it is connected with the word angle 'hook' and angling 'fishing'. No Encyclopaedia I've looked at tells you this. I have a sneaking suspicion that at that time they had heard of Angels from the Romans and decided to call themselves that. (like the Hell's Angels perhaps). This is not impossible. Tribal or national names often have self vaunting or mythological significance. The Amalekites of the Old Testament look like the Arabic word for 'giant' and a tribe of Iraq are called the A'ajiba which would seem to mean 'the wonderful ones'. Who knows Bruce Bruce > Is Kaw the same as Kansa > I'm intrigued > Bruce > Kaw is known by many names, notably Kansa, Konze, Kanza, and Kansas. Perhaps Kansa is the familiar term to you. Growing up in Osage country, a little ways from Kaw City, I always heard the word Kaw. I try to use the word Kansa, though, because it's much closer to the way it used to be said: kkaN'ze or kkaN:'ze. jm Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri Nov 16 02:17:10 2001 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 20:17:10 -0600 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha Message-ID: > there is a dispute about where the Angles > came from I believe. A German friend of mine tells me that it is > from an area west of Jutland with the name Engl- something to this > day and that it is connected with the word angle 'hook' and angling > 'fishing'. No Encyclopaedia I've looked at tells you this. _Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology_ s.v. Angle: < Latin Anglus (pl. Angli) < Germanic *ANgli (whence "English") the people of the Angul district of Slesvig so called from its shape (mod. Angeln) the same word as "angle" ['fishing hook']. Alan From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Nov 21 08:15:56 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 08:15:56 -0000 Subject: Number & Counting Comparisons in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: <3BF47726.ECA9A467@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Thank you Alan I suppose this region was so named by the Romans, or perhaps the Germans had adopted this Latin word at the time. Do we know which is most likely? Bruce > there is a dispute about where the Angles > came from I believe. A German friend of mine tells me that it is > from an area west of Jutland with the name Engl- something to this > day and that it is connected with the word angle 'hook' and angling > 'fishing'. No Encyclopaedia I've looked at tells you this. _Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology_ s.v. Angle: < Latin Anglus (pl. Angli) < Germanic *ANgli (whence "English") the people of the Angul district of Slesvig so called from its shape (mod. Angeln) the same word as "angle" ['fishing hook']. Alan Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Nov 21 08:25:08 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 08:25:08 -0000 Subject: Aspects of Lakhota syntax In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does anyone know how I could get hold of a copy of 'Aspects of Lakota Syntax' by Robert D. Van Vallin. Berkeley (unpublished) or if not , is the material available elsewhere ie in Van Vallin and Lapolla Bruce Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Nov 22 14:09:37 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 14:09:37 -0000 Subject: Van Vallin Message-ID: Thank you to all those people who suggested ways of getting hold of the Van Vallin work on Aspects of Lakota Syntax Bruce Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From ioway at earthlink.net Thu Nov 22 16:43:55 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 07:43:55 -0900 Subject: Gordon Marsh Message-ID: > Hi all- I was wondering who out there has done research on the life of Gordon Marsh, Chiwere scholar extraordinaire. I remember seeing a short biography on him in an article in a book of biographies of either linguists, anthropologists, or scholars of American Indians. I photocopied the article, but unfortunately it as well as all of my research materials remain in storage in the lower 48 (I am in Alaska now). I also learned more about him in a series of letters with some scholars (Nancy Lurie? Mildred Mott?). I have microfilms of his work (also in storage) from the American Philosophical Society, which was done by Marsh in several seasons of fieldwork in the 1930s-- he even had a special typewriter created for it. His major professor at Columbia was Franz Boas. Unfortunately as he did his fieldwork, Boas retired, so Marsh lost his major prof. Boas had been interested in collecting everything Native American, but the new paradigm in anthropology and at Columbia was more along the lines of social theory, and Marsh could not find anyone on the faculty who was interested in what he was doing. In frustration, Marsh turned in his typewriter, his notes, etc. to the American Philosophical Society, and went to Alaska to become a Russian Orthodox monk! Years later he went to the southwest, Arizona and/or Texas. I received an email from some former parishioners who remembered attending his Masses in Texas, where he is said to have died in the 1970s or 1980s. As I was doing my research, the thing that really bummed me out was finding that William Whitman published Marsh's work verbatim as his own in 1947. In any case this is the impression I get, since Whitman did not list Marsh as a coauthor, the work is verbatim from Marsh's fieldnotes, Whiteman only acknowledges Marsh in an offhand manner, he uses Marsh' orthography, and in fact the last page of Whitman's article is incomplete... with the rest of the page still to be found in Marsh! At most Whitman should be listed as the editor of that work, not the author. Anyway, I would like to know if anyone has followed Marsh's work (Dr. Furbee? Anyone?). I would like to see an article or something done to set the scholarly record straight, not to bash Whitman but to give Marsh proper recognition. I am sure all scholars know how important this is, and how if the same thing happened to you, you would like if someone eventually set the record straight for you. Lance Foster From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Nov 22 17:15:37 2001 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 17:15:37 -0000 Subject: Thanksgiving Message-ID: Best wishes for thanksgiving to all across the water Bruce Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From rankin at ku.edu Fri Nov 23 15:47:58 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 09:47:58 -0600 Subject: Gordon Marsh Message-ID: Lance, Looks like you've done more research on him than anybody else I know. John Koontz found, I think, that he had gone to a retirement home in the SW. That's where he probably died. Why don't YOU write up his bio? You might even find people in Alaska who knew him there. Bob >I was wondering who out there has done research on the life of Gordon Marsh, Chiwere scholar extraordinaire. I remember seeing a short biography on him in an article in a book of biographies of either linguists, anthropologists, or scholars of American Indians. I photocopied the article, but unfortunately it as well as all of my research materials remain in storage in the lower 48 (I am in Alaska now). I also learned more about him in a series of letters with some scholars (Nancy Lurie? Mildred Mott?). I have microfilms of his work (also in storage) from the American Philosophical Society, which was done by Marsh in several seasons of fieldwork in the 1930s-- he even had a special typewriter created for it. His major professor at Columbia was Franz Boas. Unfortunately as he did his fieldwork, Boas retired, so Marsh lost his major prof. Boas had been interested in collecting everything Native American, but the new paradigm in anthropology and at Columbia was more along the lines of social theory, and Marsh could not find anyone on the faculty who was interested in what he was doing. In frustration, Marsh turned in his typewriter, his notes, etc. to the American Philosophical Society, and went to Alaska to become a Russian Orthodox monk! Years later he went to the southwest, Arizona and/or Texas. I received an email from some former parishioners who remembered attending his Masses in Texas, where he is said to have died in the 1970s or 1980s. As I was doing my research, the thing that really bummed me out was finding that William Whitman published Marsh's work verbatim as his own in 1947. In any case this is the impression I get, since Whitman did not list Marsh as a coauthor, the work is verbatim from Marsh's fieldnotes, Whiteman only acknowledges Marsh in an offhand manner, he uses Marsh' orthography, and in fact the last page of Whitman's article is incomplete... with the rest of the page still to be found in Marsh! At most Whitman should be listed as the editor of that work, not the author. Anyway, I would like to know if anyone has followed Marsh's work (Dr. Furbee? Anyone?). I would like to see an article or something done to set the scholarly record straight, not to bash Whitman but to give Marsh proper recognition. I am sure all scholars know how important this is, and how if the same thing happened to you, you would like if someone eventually set the record straight for you. Lance Foster From rwd0002 at unt.edu Fri Nov 23 17:22:27 2001 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (Reuse Willem J De) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 11:22:27 -0600 Subject: Gordon Marsh in Alaska In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Nov 2001 09:47:58 -0600 "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: > Lance, > > Looks like you've done more research on him than anybody else I know. John > Koontz found, I think, that he had gone to a retirement home in the SW. > That's where he probably died. Why don't YOU write up his bio? You might > even find people in Alaska who knew him there. > > Bob Gordon Marsh is well-known in Alaska for his work on the Aleut language. The folks at ANLC, Fairbanks can tell you all about that. Willem de Reuse From rankin at ku.edu Sat Nov 24 23:02:23 2001 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 17:02:23 -0600 Subject: Attn. Ardis. Message-ID: Ardis, In switching computers I somehow lost track of your email address. I need to contact you about the SSILA web site. Did that ever get straightened out, or do I still need to check? If the latter, please send the details we talked about. Bob From FurbeeL at missouri.edu Mon Nov 26 16:13:44 2001 From: FurbeeL at missouri.edu (Louanna Furbee) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:13:44 -0600 Subject: Gordon Marsh In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Hi Lance, Seconding Bob's comments, I think you should put together >what you turn up into an article or report. I think that it was >someplace in Texas where Marsh retired (maybe to a Greek Orthodox >(Russian Orthodox?) home for retired clergy? Dave Rogles tried to >run him down at one time. You might try him. I don't hae his >address, but I think Jill Davidson Greer does. Her e-mail is JGreer >. Good luck. Louanna >Lance, > >Looks like you've done more research on him than anybody else I know. John >Koontz found, I think, that he had gone to a retirement home in the SW. >That's where he probably died. Why don't YOU write up his bio? You might >even find people in Alaska who knew him there. > >Bob > > >>I was wondering who out there has done research on the life of Gordon >Marsh, Chiwere scholar extraordinaire. I remember seeing a short >biography on him in an article in a book of biographies of either >linguists, anthropologists, or scholars of American Indians. I >photocopied the article, but unfortunately it as well as all of my >research materials remain in storage in the lower 48 (I am in Alaska >now). I also learned more about him in a series of letters with some >scholars (Nancy Lurie? Mildred Mott?). I have microfilms of his work >(also in storage) from the American Philosophical Society, which was >done by Marsh in several seasons of fieldwork in the 1930s-- he even had >a special typewriter created for it. His major professor at Columbia was >Franz Boas. Unfortunately as he did his fieldwork, Boas retired, so >Marsh lost his major prof. Boas had been interested in collecting >everything Native American, but the new paradigm in anthropology and at >Columbia was more along the lines of social theory, and Marsh could not >find anyone on the faculty who was interested in what he was doing. In >frustration, Marsh turned in his typewriter, his notes, etc. to the >American Philosophical Society, and went to Alaska to become a Russian >Orthodox monk! Years later he went to the southwest, Arizona and/or >Texas. I received an email from some former parishioners who remembered >attending his Masses in Texas, where he is said to have died in the >1970s or 1980s. > >As I was doing my research, the thing that really bummed me out was >finding that William Whitman published Marsh's work verbatim as his own >in 1947. In any case this is the impression I get, since Whitman did not >list Marsh as a coauthor, the work is verbatim from Marsh's fieldnotes, >Whiteman only acknowledges Marsh in an offhand manner, he uses Marsh' >orthography, and in fact the last page of Whitman's article is >incomplete... with the rest of the page still to be found in Marsh! At >most Whitman should be listed as the editor of that work, not the >author. > >Anyway, I would like to know if anyone has followed Marsh's work (Dr. >Furbee? Anyone?). I would like to see an article or something done to >set the scholarly record straight, not to bash Whitman but to give Marsh >proper recognition. I am sure all scholars know how important this is, >and how if the same thing happened to you, you would like if someone >eventually set the record straight for you. > >Lance Foster -- Prof. N. Louanna Furbee Department of Anthropology 107 Swallow Hall University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65211 USA Telephones: 573/882-9408 (office) 573/882-4731 (department) 573/446-0932 (home) 573/884-5450 (fax) E-mail: FurbeeL at missouri.edu From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon Nov 26 16:31:00 2001 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 09:31:00 -0700 Subject: Gordon Marsh In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lance -- I actually had some correspondence with Marsh after he retired, but it's all lost now. I am pretty sure that he did indeed retire to a Russian Orthodox institution somewhere in the southwest. His Orthodox name was Rev. Priestmonk Innocent. Are you sure that the sequence of events was from Boas' student to Orthodox priest? Somehow I had the idea that he was already a Priest when he was doing his Chiwere work and studying with Boas. Be careful, too, about the Whitman assertion. I have always believed that the copy of the Whitman manuscript in the Marsh files was exactly that -- a copy of what Whitman wrote. For one thing, the typewriter on which that is written looks quite different from the one Marsh used otherwise. When I found the "missing page" from the Whitman ms. years ago, I intended to write a postscript to to the Voelgelin-Harris publication, but I never got around to it. BEcause of these two notions, either or both of which may be from my imagination or from some "folklore" I picked up along the way, I would add my voice to those who encourage you to try to write the biography. I will look for my correspondence, too, but probably not til after Christmas. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado Campus Box 295 Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Louanna Furbee wrote: > >Hi Lance, Seconding Bob's comments, I think you should put together > >what you turn up into an article or report. I think that it was > >someplace in Texas where Marsh retired (maybe to a Greek Orthodox > >(Russian Orthodox?) home for retired clergy? Dave Rogles tried to > >run him down at one time. You might try him. I don't hae his > >address, but I think Jill Davidson Greer does. Her e-mail is JGreer > >. Good luck. Louanna > > > > >Lance, > > > >Looks like you've done more research on him than anybody else I know. John > >Koontz found, I think, that he had gone to a retirement home in the SW. > >That's where he probably died. Why don't YOU write up his bio? You might > >even find people in Alaska who knew him there. > > > >Bob > > > > > >>I was wondering who out there has done research on the life of Gordon > >Marsh, Chiwere scholar extraordinaire. I remember seeing a short > >biography on him in an article in a book of biographies of either > >linguists, anthropologists, or scholars of American Indians. I > >photocopied the article, but unfortunately it as well as all of my > >research materials remain in storage in the lower 48 (I am in Alaska > >now). I also learned more about him in a series of letters with some > >scholars (Nancy Lurie? Mildred Mott?). I have microfilms of his work > >(also in storage) from the American Philosophical Society, which was > >done by Marsh in several seasons of fieldwork in the 1930s-- he even had > >a special typewriter created for it. His major professor at Columbia was > >Franz Boas. Unfortunately as he did his fieldwork, Boas retired, so > >Marsh lost his major prof. Boas had been interested in collecting > >everything Native American, but the new paradigm in anthropology and at > >Columbia was more along the lines of social theory, and Marsh could not > >find anyone on the faculty who was interested in what he was doing. In > >frustration, Marsh turned in his typewriter, his notes, etc. to the > >American Philosophical Society, and went to Alaska to become a Russian > >Orthodox monk! Years later he went to the southwest, Arizona and/or > >Texas. I received an email from some former parishioners who remembered > >attending his Masses in Texas, where he is said to have died in the > >1970s or 1980s. > > > >As I was doing my research, the thing that really bummed me out was > >finding that William Whitman published Marsh's work verbatim as his own > >in 1947. In any case this is the impression I get, since Whitman did not > >list Marsh as a coauthor, the work is verbatim from Marsh's fieldnotes, > >Whiteman only acknowledges Marsh in an offhand manner, he uses Marsh' > >orthography, and in fact the last page of Whitman's article is > >incomplete... with the rest of the page still to be found in Marsh! At > >most Whitman should be listed as the editor of that work, not the > >author. > > > >Anyway, I would like to know if anyone has followed Marsh's work (Dr. > >Furbee? Anyone?). I would like to see an article or something done to > >set the scholarly record straight, not to bash Whitman but to give Marsh > >proper recognition. I am sure all scholars know how important this is, > >and how if the same thing happened to you, you would like if someone > >eventually set the record straight for you. > > > >Lance Foster > > -- > Prof. N. Louanna Furbee > Department of Anthropology > 107 Swallow Hall > University of Missouri > Columbia, MO 65211 USA > Telephones: 573/882-9408 (office) > 573/882-4731 (department) > 573/446-0932 (home) > 573/884-5450 (fax) > E-mail: FurbeeL at missouri.edu > From linchair at linguistics.ucsb.edu Mon Nov 26 17:15:38 2001 From: linchair at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Carol Genetti) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 09:15:38 -0800 Subject: position available in sociocultural linguistics Message-ID: ** POSITION AVAILABLE ** Please note that we are actively accepting applications for the following position, which will remain open until filled. Interviews will be conducted at the meetings of the American Anthropological Association on 11/29-12/1/2001, the Linguistic Society of America on 1/3-1/5/2002, and the International Conference on Austronesian Linguistics on 1/8-1/11/2002. University of California, Santa Barbara. The UCSB Linguistics Department seeks to hire a specialist in social and/or cultural approaches to language. The appointment will be tenure-track at the Assistant Professor level, effective July 1, 2002. Candidates should have an active research program in their area of specialization. Experience in social/cultural research incorporating linguistic analysis of naturally occurring language use is essential. We are especially interested in candidates whose research shows theoretical implications for one or more related disciplines such as anthropology, sociology, or cognitive science, as well as linguistics, and who can interact with colleagues and students in interdisciplinary programs at UCSB such as Language, Interaction, and Social Organization (LISO) and Cognitive Science. Candidates should have demonstrated excellence in teaching, and will be expected to teach a range of courses at graduate and undergraduate levels, including courses in linguistic anthropology and sociolinguistics. Ph.D. normally required by the time of appointment. Applicants should submit curriculum vitae, statement of research interests, 1-2 samples of published work, and full contact information for three academic references to the Search Committee, Linguistics Department, UCSB, Santa Barbara, CA 93106. Inquiries may be addressed to the above address or via email to lingsearch at linguistics.ucsb.edu. Tentative deadline November 15, 2001; the position will remain open until filled. Preliminary interviews will be conducted at the annual meetings of the American Anthropological Association, the International Conference on Austronesian Linguistics, and the Linguistic Society of America, although attendance is not required for consideration. Our department has a genuine commitment to diversity; members of underrepresented groups are especially encouraged to apply. UCSB is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action employer. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ioway at earthlink.net Mon Nov 26 17:25:29 2001 From: ioway at earthlink.net (Lance Foster) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 08:25:29 -0900 Subject: Gordon Marsh Message-ID: Hi to all those who responded to my Marsh inquiry-- I will be very careful about the Marsh-Whitman situation and will assert nothing more until it is all cleared up. I unfortunately do not have my Marsh info (mainly the 3 microfilm rolls) so that part will have to wait, since it is all in storage in Montana. I will however try to see what I can learn about his life here in Alaska.. thanks for the leads! Lance ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Lance -- > I actually had some correspondence with Marsh after he retired, > but it's all lost now. I am pretty sure that he did indeed retire to a > Russian Orthodox institution somewhere in the southwest. His Orthodox > name was Rev. Priestmonk Innocent. Are you sure that the sequence of > events was from Boas' student to Orthodox priest? Somehow I had the idea > that he was already a Priest when he was doing his Chiwere work and > studying with Boas. > Be careful, too, about the Whitman assertion. I have always > believed that the copy of the Whitman manuscript in the Marsh files was > exactly that -- a copy of what Whitman wrote. For one thing, the > typewriter on which that is written looks quite different from the one > Marsh used otherwise. When I found the "missing page" from the Whitman > ms. years ago, I intended to write a postscript to to the Voelgelin-Harris > publication, but I never got around to it. > BEcause of these two notions, either or both of which may be from > my imagination or from some "folklore" I picked up along the way, I would > add my voice to those who encourage you to try to write the biography. I > will look for my correspondence, too, but probably not til after > Christmas. > > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > Campus Box 295 > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Louanna Furbee wrote: > > > >Hi Lance, Seconding Bob's comments, I think you should put together > > >what you turn up into an article or report. I think that it was > > >someplace in Texas where Marsh retired (maybe to a Greek Orthodox > > >(Russian Orthodox?) home for retired clergy? Dave Rogles tried to > > >run him down at one time. You might try him. I don't hae his > > >address, but I think Jill Davidson Greer does. Her e-mail is JGreer > > >. Good luck. Louanna > > > > > > > > >Lance, > > > > > >Looks like you've done more research on him than anybody else I know. John > > >Koontz found, I think, that he had gone to a retirement home in the SW. > > >That's where he probably died. Why don't YOU write up his bio? You might > > >even find people in Alaska who knew him there. > > > > > >Bob > > > > > > > > >>I was wondering who out there has done research on the life of Gordon > > >Marsh, Chiwere scholar extraordinaire. I remember seeing a short > > >biography on him in an article in a book of biographies of either > > >linguists, anthropologists, or scholars of American Indians. I > > >photocopied the article, but unfortunately it as well as all of my > > >research materials remain in storage in the lower 48 (I am in Alaska > > >now). I also learned more about him in a series of letters with some > > >scholars (Nancy Lurie? Mildred Mott?). I have microfilms of his work > > >(also in storage) from the American Philosophical Society, which was > > >done by Marsh in several seasons of fieldwork in the 1930s-- he even had > > >a special typewriter created for it. His major professor at Columbia was > > >Franz Boas. Unfortunately as he did his fieldwork, Boas retired, so > > >Marsh lost his major prof. Boas had been interested in collecting > > >everything Native American, but the new paradigm in anthropology and at > > >Columbia was more along the lines of social theory, and Marsh could not > > >find anyone on the faculty who was interested in what he was doing. In > > >frustration, Marsh turned in his typewriter, his notes, etc. to the > > >American Philosophical Society, and went to Alaska to become a Russian > > >Orthodox monk! Years later he went to the southwest, Arizona and/or > > >Texas. I received an email from some former parishioners who remembered > > >attending his Masses in Texas, where he is said to have died in the > > >1970s or 1980s. > > > > > >As I was doing my research, the thing that really bummed me out was > > >finding that William Whitman published Marsh's work verbatim as his own > > >in 1947. In any case this is the impression I get, since Whitman did not > > >list Marsh as a coauthor, the work is verbatim from Marsh's fieldnotes, > > >Whiteman only acknowledges Marsh in an offhand manner, he uses Marsh' > > >orthography, and in fact the last page of Whitman's article is > > >incomplete... with the rest of the page still to be found in Marsh! At > > >most Whitman should be listed as the editor of that work, not the > > >author. > > > > > >Anyway, I would like to know if anyone has followed Marsh's work (Dr. > > >Furbee? Anyone?). I would like to see an article or something done to > > >set the scholarly record straight, not to bash Whitman but to give Marsh > > >proper recognition. I am sure all scholars know how important this is, > > >and how if the same thing happened to you, you would like if someone > > >eventually set the record straight for you. > > > > > >Lance Foster > > > > -- > > Prof. N. Louanna Furbee > > Department of Anthropology > > 107 Swallow Hall > > University of Missouri > > Columbia, MO 65211 USA > > Telephones: 573/882-9408 (office) > > 573/882-4731 (department) > > 573/446-0932 (home) > > 573/884-5450 (fax) > > E-mail: FurbeeL at missouri.edu > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Nov 26 17:56:17 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:56:17 -0700 Subject: Gordon Marsh In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > I actually had some correspondence with Marsh after he retired, > but it's all lost now. I am pretty sure that he did indeed retire to a > Russian Orthodox institution somewhere in the southwest. His Orthodox > name was Rev. Priestmonk Innocent. I'll add to the public record (I've already mentioned it to Lance) that I corresponded with him about the Hahn Ponca ms. in his APS files. He didn't actually say it was Hahn's but said that though his memory wasn't what it had been, he didn't recall ever working with Ponca and definitely remembered Ms. Hahn. They and some others went to a PowWow together on one occasion he recalled. I think he even gave the date, so his memory seemed fine to a stranger to it! I can never remember dates! For example, I won't remember what year I corresponded with him until I locate the letter. Anyway, I wrote back to ask more specifically if he - Marhs/Innocent - though that the ms. might be Hahn's, perhaps borrowed to make a typed copy of it (there was a partial typed copy including an interpolated note by GM with the original), but he never answered. I believe he was in an Orthodox facility for retired priest-monks in Phoenix, AZ, at the time. I suppose this would be a sort of monastery! I'm not sure where I got the address. Perhaps from David? I believe it was Dale Nichols, a fellow student at CU who worked briefly with Ioway-Otoe, who told me that some of the people she talked to remembered Marsh kindly, and described him as living, with a younger brother I think, in a tent in a creek bottom. Incidentally, I believe she also said that they remembered him as having red hair, though I guess hair colors are defined in culturally-relative terms. (That's a a couple of dubitatives within a quotative!) That and the presence of the brother might help determine if they were remembering Marsh/Innocent or someone else. It would have been at least 50 years afterwards that she received these memories, now passed on at least third hand. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Nov 29 17:09:50 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:09:50 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Omaha concordances (fwd) Message-ID: These materials were prepared by Matthew Dryer for the use of Ardis Eschenberg, based on the Siouan Archives keying of the Dorsey texts. He's kindly agreed to let me post the information on the list, too, as I thought perhaps others would also be interested. He adds "If after all that [reference to typos in the texts JEK], you want to tell others about it, that's fine, though you might also want to mention that the accent mark only comes out OK on Windows (on my Mac it comes out as a capital Y with two lines through it)." ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 08:53:37 -0700 From: John E. Koontz To: john.koontz at colorado.edu Subject: Fwd: Omaha concordances >Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:25:07 -0500 (EST) >From: Matthew S Dryer >To: koontz at boulder.nist.gov >Subject: Omaha concordances > > >John, > >I have posted to my web site for Ardis to download, three huge >concordances I ran for the Dorsey texts, and thought I'd give you the URL >in case you want to download them. Details below. > >Matthew Dryer > >Concordances of Dorsey's Omaha Texts > >These concordances are meant to be looked at on one's computer screen. >They are far too long to print out. (If you tried, they would be over >20,000 pages.) > >There are three concordances, the main one (Omaha, alphabetical), the >reverse Omaha one, and the English-based one. Each concordance contains >20 or more documents, one for each letter. Each concordance also contains >an additional document with the suffix "list" (before the .rtf suffix) >which is a list of all the words in the order they occur in that >concordance and their frequency in the Dorsey texts. > >They are all RTF documents. Except for the list documents, they must be >opened from within Microsoft Word on a Mac. I don't know if this is also >necessary in Windows. The choice of nonstandard characters is based on >what seems to work in Windows (the accent mark does not come out right on >a Mac). A tilde using its own space is used for the nasalization symbol. > >There are three StuffIt documents, one for each of the three concourdance. >Each will expland into a folder containing the 20 or more documents making >up that concordance. Each of the three StuffIt documents is about 4MB. >When unstuffed, these three concordances require a total of about 80MB of >hard disk space. > >The three concordances are at the following URL's: > >http://wings.buffalo.edu/linguistics/dryer/omaha.conc.sit >http://wings.buffalo.edu/linguistics/dryer/omaha.conc.rev.sit >http://wings.buffalo.edu/linguistics/dryer/omaha.conc.engl.sit > >A list of the documents in each concordance: > >The main concordance: > >omaha.conc.a.rtf >omaha.conc.b.rtf >omaha.conc.c.rtf >omaha.conc.d.rtf >omaha.conc.e.rtf >omaha.conc.g.rtf >omaha.conc.h.rtf >omaha.conc.i.rtf >omaha.conc.j.rtf >omaha.conc.k.rtf >omaha.conc.list.rtf >omaha.conc.m.rtf >omaha.conc.n.rtf >omaha.conc.o.rtf >omaha.conc.p.rtf >omaha.conc.s.rtf >omaha.conc.t.rtf >omaha.conc.u.rtf >omaha.conc.w.rtf >omaha.conc.x.rtf >omaha.conc.z.rtf > >The reverse concordance: > >omaha.conc.rev.a.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.b.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.c.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.d.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.e.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.g.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.h.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.i.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.k.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.list.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.m.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.n.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.o.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.p.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.s.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.t.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.u.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.w.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.x.rtf >omaha.conc.rev.z.rtf > >The English-based concordance: > >omaha.conc.engl.a.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.b.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.c.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.d.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.e.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.f.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.g.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.h.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.i.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.j.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.k.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.l.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.list.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.m.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.n.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.o.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.p.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.q.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.r.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.s.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.t.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.u.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.v.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.w.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.y.rtf >omaha.conc.engl.z.rtf From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Nov 29 17:25:18 2001 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:25:18 -0700 Subject: Windows and Mac SIT (StuffIt) Archives Message-ID: You can get a StuffIt unstuffer for dealing with the concordance SIT rchives at http://www.stuffit.com/expander/index.html. Do a custom install and only install the expander. Don't let it handle files with other extensions unless you want to use it instead of whatever unzippers, etc., you already use.