From enichol4 at attbi.com  Fri Feb  1 05:17:20 2002
From: enichol4 at attbi.com (Eric)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 23:17:20 -0600
Subject: Siouanists, eat your heart out.
Message-ID: <THU.31.JAN.2002.231720.0600.>

I might've not 've responded to this thread if it hadn't come down to a
question of whether or not perfection is distributive over modal
auxileration. To my Upper Great Lakes ear it sort of reminds my of a line
from a song I could (obviously) never finish writing:

"If it'd been real, Master, I'd've said it'd been a dream!"

Or the colorless greens I had for lunch yesterday in lieu of an angry
night's sleep.
--Eric

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu>
To: <BARudes at aol.com>; <"'siouan at lists.colorado.edu '"@hooch.Colorado.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 1:14 PM
Subject: RE: Siouanists, eat your heart out.


>
> >You MIGHT'VE SHOULD'VE talked to some of us up here in the Carolinas.
> We could've explained the usage to you right quick.
>
> I grew up in South Georgia, and "might could", Ken's "usta could" along
with
> "might oughta" are second nature to me in casual English.  But putting
<'ve>
> on BOTH elements is out of the question for me and everyone I know. "Might
> would've" and "might should've" or "might oughta've" would be OK, but not
> with *might've.
>
> Bob
>


From cqcq at compuserve.com  Fri Feb  1 17:42:04 2002
From: cqcq at compuserve.com (Carolyn Quintero)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:42:04 -0500
Subject: Siouanists, eat your heart out.
Message-ID: <FRI.1.FEB.2002.124204.0500.>

What it kinda sorta reminds me of is the quote from a lady who said, If I'd
a knowed I could of rode I would of went but I wouldn't of ate nothing when
I got there.
Carolyn

Message text written by INTERNET:siouan at lists.colorado.edu
>
I might've not 've responded to this thread if it hadn't come down to a
question of whether or not perfection is distributive over modal
auxileration. To my Upper Great Lakes ear it sort of reminds my of a line
from a song I could (obviously) never finish writing:

"If it'd been real, Master, I'd've said it'd been a dream!"

Or the colorless greens I had for lunch yesterday in lieu of an angry
night's sleep.
--Eric
<


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Sat Feb  2 17:27:38 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 11:27:38 -0600
Subject: Water monsters
Message-ID: <SAT.2.FEB.2002.112738.0600.>

"alligator" was used for Mississippi keelboatmen and other frontier
types (Dict. Americanisms s.v.)


From BARudes at aol.com  Sat Feb  2 20:32:07 2002
From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 15:32:07 EST
Subject: additions to Woccon article
Message-ID: <SAT.2.FEB.2002.153207.EST.>

Additions to Appendix 4 of "Resurrecting Coastal Catawban"

1. Proto-Siouan *wi'huN:te (?) 'black bear' (Rankin 1998) [Bob R. reports he
would reconstruct *wi'hu:te ~ *wi'huN:te, and that the word is perhaps a
borrowing]

2. Proto-Siouan *'wati 'boat, canoe' (Carter 1980:77) [John K. reports that
the reconstruction in the Comparative Siouan Dictionary is *Wa:'te (?) 'boat']

3. Proto-Siouan *wi'htoxka 'fox' (Rankin 1998)

4. Proto-Siouan *pha 'head' (Matthews 1958) [Bob R. reports that he would
reconstruct *a'hpa 'head']

5. Lakota mi, mila 'knife' (Carter 1980:77) [John K. reports that the
reconstruction in the Comparative Siouan Dictionary is *waN'hiN 'blade']

6. Proto-Siouan *i'hkuN: 'grandmother' (Rankin, Carter and Jones 1997)

7. Proto-Siouan *wi'htaN 'wildcat' (Rankin 1998)

8. Proto-Siouan *hu 'tree, trunk, stalk' (Carter 1980:77)

9. Proto-Siouan *wi'he(-ka) 'raccoon' (Rankin 1998)

10. Proto-Siouan *'ruti 'red' (Matthews 1958) [John K. reports that the
reconstruction in the Comparative Siouan Dictionary is *as^u'te 'red']

Sources

Carter, Richard T. 1980. The Woccon Language of North Carolina: Its Genetic
Affiliations and Historical Significance. IJAL 46(3):170-182.

Koontz, John E. Email communication, 20 January 2002.

Matthews, G. Hubert. 1958. Handbook of Siouan Languages. PhD dissertation.
Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania.

Oliviero, Giulia R.M. and Robert L. Rankin. Fortcoming. On the Subgrouping of
the Virginia Siouan Languages. In Blair A. Rudes and David Costa (eds.).
Essays in Algonquian and Siouan Linguistics in Memory of Frank T. Siebert,
Jr. Winnipeg: University of Manitoba Press.

Rankin, Robert L. 1998. Siouan-Catawban-Yuchi Genetic Relationship: with a
Note on Caddoan. Siouan-Caddoan Linguistics Conference. Bloomington, Indiana.

Rankin, Robert L. Telephone communication, 31 January 2002.

Rankin, Robert L., Richard T. Carter and A. Wesley Jones. 1997. Proto-Siouan
Phonology and Grammar. Mid-America Linguistics Conference. Columbia:
University of Missouri.


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Sat Feb  2 20:43:35 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 14:43:35 -0600
Subject: additions to Woccon article
Message-ID: <SAT.2.FEB.2002.144335.0600.>

Thanks for the addenda, Blair.

Alan
--
Alan H. Hartley
119 West Kent Road
Duluth MN 55812-1152
U.S.A.
218/724-5095
http://www.d.umn.edu/~ahartley/


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Feb  3 02:49:24 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:49:24 -0700
Subject: additions to Woccon article
In-Reply-To: <fd.1322acef.298da6c7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.2.FEB.2002.194924.0700.>

On Sat, 2 Feb 2002 BARudes at aol.com wrote:

> Additions to Appendix 4 of "Resurrecting Coastal Catawban"
>
> 1. Proto-Siouan *wi'huN:te (?) 'black bear' (Rankin 1998) [Bob R. reports he
> would reconstruct *wi'hu:te ~ *wi'huN:te, and that the word is perhaps a
> borrowing]
>
> 2. Proto-Siouan *'wati 'boat, canoe' (Carter 1980:77) [John K. reports that
> the reconstruction in the Comparative Siouan Dictionary is *Wa:'te (?) 'boat']

Note that *w is not the same as *W, as *r is not *R, but until recently
Siouanists were not always clear on the distinction, and that -i vs. -e
reflects some indecision across time and persons among Siouanists as to
how to reconstrict the same thing.  So in essence, the sources agree and
the differences are in detail.

> 3. Proto-Siouan *wi'htoxka 'fox' (Rankin 1998)
>
> 4. Proto-Siouan *pha 'head' (Matthews 1958) [Bob R. reports that he would
> reconstruct *a'hpa 'head']

Yes, this is ppa in Dhegiha, and tense stops (also written as phonetically
preaspirates in, say, Osage) when they pair with Dakota aspiration and
Chiwere aspiration imply *hC.

> 5. Lakota mi, mila 'knife' (Carter 1980:77) [John K. reports that the
> reconstruction in the Comparative Siouan Dictionary is *waN'hiN 'blade']

In which the mi- would be, perhaps *w(a) + the final *iN, the first part
of the cited reconstruction being probably *waN'h(e) 'flint'.

> 6. Proto-Siouan *i'hkuN: 'grandmother' (Rankin, Carter and Jones 1997)
>
> 7. Proto-Siouan *wi'htaN 'wildcat' (Rankin 1998)
>
> 8. Proto-Siouan *hu 'tree, trunk, stalk' (Carter 1980:77)

Unchanged in modern assessment, if we leave aside the vexed question of
the organic (?) or epenthetic (?) -r- in Mandan before the final particle
(Kennard says article)  -e there (cf. -di in some forms in Biloxi, though
I don't recall if this one has that in Biloxi.

> 9. Proto-Siouan *wi'he(-ka) 'raccoon' (Rankin 1998)
>
> 10. Proto-Siouan *'ruti 'red' (Matthews 1958) [John K. reports that the
> reconstruction in the Comparative Siouan Dictionary is *as^u'te 'red']

The *r is an attempt to deal with the Dakotan for luta, which involves
contamination by (or replacement by) *rut(e) 'ripe, cooked'.


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Sun Feb  3 17:16:21 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:16:21 -0600
Subject: pomme de terre
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.111621.0600.>

1813 R. STUART Oregon Trail (1953) 153

"we fell in with a large field of the root called by the Ottos "Toe" &
by the Canadians "Pomme de Terre," they are but seldom of larger
dimensions than a hens egg, with a rough warty brown skin, are never
more than six inches deep in the earth, and when boiled, resemble very
much in taste the sweet potato"

Is this Apios tuberosa/americana (ground nut), which I confuse with
Psoralea esculenta (Indian turnip, prairie potato, pomme blanche). I
assume it's the same as Dakota bdo/mdo, Lakota blo.

I ask for two reasons, one practical, the other far out:

 1.) to confirm a new meaning for pomme de terre in the OED.

 2.) to add to a continuing discussion on the Chinook Jargon listserv
about the etymology of wapato. The latter first appears as wapto in 1805
in the Lewis & Clark journals, with ref. to the lower Columbia where it
is cited as a native name for the edible aquatic root. The OED etymol.
Cree wapatowa 'white mushroom' doesn't seem very likely, and Howard
Berman (IJAL 1990) has suggested Kalapuyan *-pdo 'wapato; potato'
borrowed into Chinookan with its wa- added. Just fishing here, but the
superficial resemblance bdo~pdo, both referring to edible roots, caught
my eye. And then one can prefix the Ojibway and Cree wap- 'white' and
introduce it into Canadian French and then into Chinook Jargon...

Anyway, simply to learn the referent of pomme de terre would be enough,
and much safer.

Thanks,

Alan


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Sun Feb  3 18:38:15 2002
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:38:15 -0500
Subject: pomme de terre
In-Reply-To: <3C5D7065.79D17E63@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.133815.0500.>

The "pomme de terre" of the historical Illinois Country is Ipomeia
pandurata, the wild sweet potato vine. /mihkohpina/ is Miami-Illinois
('red potato'). Later historians often thought erroneously that the native
term referred to the white waterlily, whose Latin name escapes me at the
moment. N... t...

La Salle has a good ethnographic report on these potatoes. They account
for two or three native-created place names in Indiana.

Michael



On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:

> 1813 R. STUART Oregon Trail (1953) 153
>
> "we fell in with a large field of the root called by the Ottos "Toe" &
> by the Canadians "Pomme de Terre," they are but seldom of larger
> dimensions than a hens egg, with a rough warty brown skin, are never
> more than six inches deep in the earth, and when boiled, resemble very
> much in taste the sweet potato"
>
> Is this Apios tuberosa/americana (ground nut), which I confuse with
> Psoralea esculenta (Indian turnip, prairie potato, pomme blanche). I
> assume it's the same as Dakota bdo/mdo, Lakota blo.
>
> I ask for two reasons, one practical, the other far out:
>
>  1.) to confirm a new meaning for pomme de terre in the OED.
>
>  2.) to add to a continuing discussion on the Chinook Jargon listserv
> about the etymology of wapato. The latter first appears as wapto in 1805
> in the Lewis & Clark journals, with ref. to the lower Columbia where it
> is cited as a native name for the edible aquatic root. The OED etymol.
> Cree wapatowa 'white mushroom' doesn't seem very likely, and Howard
> Berman (IJAL 1990) has suggested Kalapuyan *-pdo 'wapato; potato'
> borrowed into Chinookan with its wa- added. Just fishing here, but the
> superficial resemblance bdo~pdo, both referring to edible roots, caught
> my eye. And then one can prefix the Ojibway and Cree wap- 'white' and
> introduce it into Canadian French and then into Chinook Jargon...
>
> Anyway, simply to learn the referent of pomme de terre would be enough,
> and much safer.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Alan
>
>
>


Michael McCafferty
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

"Talking is often a torment for me, and I
need many days of silence to recover from the futility of words.
                                                       C.G. Jung

"...as a dog howls at the moon, I talk."
                                    Rumi


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Sun Feb  3 18:46:47 2002
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:46:47 -0500
Subject: pomme de terre
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020203133347.5771B-100000@ariel.ucs.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.134647.0500.>

I should add that these potatoes aren't red until you cook them. But they
do grow to a somewhat colossal size in well-drained bottomland: about the
size of your arm and at least that big around. I'll also add that the
Miami-Illinois term below seems to be a reformulation of original
/mahkohpina/ 'bear potato', which also appears in the Jesuit documents and
elsewhere and for which there is a Proto-Algonquian reconstruction in
/ma0kwapenya/ 'bear potato'. Potawatomi historically had both 'bear
potato' and 'red potato' for this plant.

Michael

On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Michael Mccafferty wrote:

> The "pomme de terre" of the historical Illinois Country is Ipomeia
> pandurata, the wild sweet potato vine. /mihkohpina/ is Miami-Illinois
> ('red potato'). Later historians often thought erroneously that the native
> term referred to the white waterlily, whose Latin name escapes me at the
> moment. N... t...
>
> La Salle has a good ethnographic report on these potatoes. They account
> for two or three native-created place names in Indiana.
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
>
> > 1813 R. STUART Oregon Trail (1953) 153
> >
> > "we fell in with a large field of the root called by the Ottos "Toe" &
> > by the Canadians "Pomme de Terre," they are but seldom of larger
> > dimensions than a hens egg, with a rough warty brown skin, are never
> > more than six inches deep in the earth, and when boiled, resemble very
> > much in taste the sweet potato"
> >
> > Is this Apios tuberosa/americana (ground nut), which I confuse with
> > Psoralea esculenta (Indian turnip, prairie potato, pomme blanche). I
> > assume it's the same as Dakota bdo/mdo, Lakota blo.
> >
> > I ask for two reasons, one practical, the other far out:
> >
> >  1.) to confirm a new meaning for pomme de terre in the OED.
> >
> >  2.) to add to a continuing discussion on the Chinook Jargon listserv
> > about the etymology of wapato. The latter first appears as wapto in 1805
> > in the Lewis & Clark journals, with ref. to the lower Columbia where it
> > is cited as a native name for the edible aquatic root. The OED etymol.
> > Cree wapatowa 'white mushroom' doesn't seem very likely, and Howard
> > Berman (IJAL 1990) has suggested Kalapuyan *-pdo 'wapato; potato'
> > borrowed into Chinookan with its wa- added. Just fishing here, but the
> > superficial resemblance bdo~pdo, both referring to edible roots, caught
> > my eye. And then one can prefix the Ojibway and Cree wap- 'white' and
> > introduce it into Canadian French and then into Chinook Jargon...
> >
> > Anyway, simply to learn the referent of pomme de terre would be enough,
> > and much safer.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Alan
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Michael McCafferty
> 307 Memorial Hall
> Indiana University
> Bloomington, Indiana
> 47405
> mmccaffe at indiana.edu
>
> "Talking is often a torment for me, and I
> need many days of silence to recover from the futility of words.
>                                                        C.G. Jung
>
> "...as a dog howls at the moon, I talk."
>                                     Rumi
>
>
>
>


Michael McCafferty
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

"Talking is often a torment for me, and I
need many days of silence to recover from the futility of words.
                                                       C.G. Jung

"...as a dog howls at the moon, I talk."
                                    Rumi


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Feb  3 18:56:23 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:56:23 -0700
Subject: pomme de terre
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020203133347.5771B-100000@ariel.ucs.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.115623.0700.>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Michael Mccafferty wrote:
> ... Later historians often thought erroneously that the native term
> referred to the white waterlily, whose Latin name escapes me at the
> moment. N... t...

Nelumbo lutea?


From boris at terracom.net  Sun Feb  3 19:12:43 2002
From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:12:43 -0600
Subject: pomme de terre
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020203133347.5771B-100000@ariel.ucs.indiana .edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.131243.0600.>

A few words to add, first the correct name of the sweet potato vine is
Ipomoea pandurata, second another plant to consider is the Jerusalem
artichoke, Helianthus tuberosus,


At 01:38 PM 2/3/02 -0500, you wrote:
>The "pomme de terre" of the historical Illinois Country is Ipomeia
>pandurata, the wild sweet potato vine. /mihkohpina/ is Miami-Illinois
>('red potato'). Later historians often thought erroneously that the native
>term referred to the white waterlily, whose Latin name escapes me at the
>moment. N... t...
>
>La Salle has a good ethnographic report on these potatoes. They account
>for two or three native-created place names in Indiana.
>
>Michael
>
>
>
>On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
>
> > 1813 R. STUART Oregon Trail (1953) 153
> >
> > "we fell in with a large field of the root called by the Ottos "Toe" &
> > by the Canadians "Pomme de Terre," they are but seldom of larger
> > dimensions than a hens egg, with a rough warty brown skin, are never
> > more than six inches deep in the earth, and when boiled, resemble very
> > much in taste the sweet potato"
> >
> > Is this Apios tuberosa/americana (ground nut), which I confuse with
> > Psoralea esculenta (Indian turnip, prairie potato, pomme blanche). I
> > assume it's the same as Dakota bdo/mdo, Lakota blo.
> >
> > I ask for two reasons, one practical, the other far out:
> >
> >  1.) to confirm a new meaning for pomme de terre in the OED.
> >
> >  2.) to add to a continuing discussion on the Chinook Jargon listserv
> > about the etymology of wapato. The latter first appears as wapto in 1805
> > in the Lewis & Clark journals, with ref. to the lower Columbia where it
> > is cited as a native name for the edible aquatic root. The OED etymol.
> > Cree wapatowa 'white mushroom' doesn't seem very likely, and Howard
> > Berman (IJAL 1990) has suggested Kalapuyan *-pdo 'wapato; potato'
> > borrowed into Chinookan with its wa- added. Just fishing here, but the
> > superficial resemblance bdo~pdo, both referring to edible roots, caught
> > my eye. And then one can prefix the Ojibway and Cree wap- 'white' and
> > introduce it into Canadian French and then into Chinook Jargon...
> >
> > Anyway, simply to learn the referent of pomme de terre would be enough,
> > and much safer.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Alan
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>Michael McCafferty
>307 Memorial Hall
>Indiana University
>Bloomington, Indiana
>47405
>mmccaffe at indiana.edu
>
>"Talking is often a torment for me, and I
>need many days of silence to recover from the futility of words.
>                                                        C.G. Jung
>
>"...as a dog howls at the moon, I talk."
>                                     Rumi
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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Feb  3 19:25:32 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:25:32 -0700
Subject: pomme de terre
In-Reply-To: <3C5D7065.79D17E63@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.122532.0700.>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> 1813 R. STUART Oregon Trail (1953) 153
>
> "we fell in with a large field of the root called by the Ottos "Toe" &
> by the Canadians "Pomme de Terre," they are but seldom of larger
> dimensions than a hens egg, with a rough warty brown skin, are never
> more than six inches deep in the earth, and when boiled, resemble very
> much in taste the sweet potato"

Teton blo, Santee mdo, Omaha-Ponca nu, Osage to, Ioway-Otoe to, Winnebago
too.  Proto-Mississippi Valley is something like *pro, presumably from
*w(a)-ro, and the *pr cluster becomes *R in Dhegiha, Ioway-otoe, and
Winnebago.

Gilmore gives the Pawnee as its.

> Is this Apios tuberosa/americana (ground nut), which I confuse with
> Psoralea esculenta (Indian turnip, prairie potato, pomme blanche). I
> assume it's the same as Dakota bdo/mdo, Lakota blo.

Melvin Gilmore says, mdo, nu, etc., are Glycine apios.  Hugh Cutler's
foreward to the U of Nebraska edition equates this to modern Apios
americana Medic.

Gilmore says Psoralea esculenta refers to:  Santee t(h)iNpsiNna ~
t(h)ipsiNna, Teton t(h)iNpsila (Buechel also gives thiNpsiNla),
Omaha-Ponca nugdhe, Winnebago tdoke'wihi (= tookewihi) (and Pawnee
patsuroka). This is called the wild turnip or tipsin in some contexts.

Miner gives too=..ke'wehi (P1 toikewehi) as 'to be hungry' and tooke'wehi
t?e'e as 'to starve to death'.  Interestingly, Osage has noNppe=..hi
(stative) 'to be hungry', noNppe=hi ..c?e (active) 'to starve'.  The
Omaha-Ponca terms are essentially the same.

> I ask for two reasons, one practical, the other far out:
>
>  1.) to confirm a new meaning for pomme de terre in the OED.
>
>  2.) to add to a continuing discussion on the Chinook Jargon listserv
> about the etymology of wapato. The latter first appears as wapto in 1805
> in the Lewis & Clark journals, with ref. to the lower Columbia where it
> is cited as a native name for the edible aquatic root. ...

It's certainly a striking resemblance.  The wa- prefix is used with
cultivated foodstuffs in Mississippi Valley Siouan, e.g., OP wathaNzi
'corn (plant)', wathaN 'squash'.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Feb  3 19:41:24 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:41:24 -0700
Subject: Omaha-Ponca 'to say' (RE:  Dhegiha prehistory, cont.)
In-Reply-To: <F73B91BED37FD5119F970008C7CF50FC079F0837@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.124124.0700.>

On Sun, 20 Jan 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> A couple of points responding to John.  First, it is my under-
> standing from Kathy Shea, that Ponca (as opposed to Omaha)
> preserves the /ph/ 1st person forms in verbs like e-he 'say',
> i.e., Ponca has /ephe/ like Kaw-Osage, but unlike Quapaw. If
> that is the case, the isogloss is not diagnostic for subgrouping.

I've been meaning to comment in regard to this that my recollection is
that the ph first person is found in Ponca only with eg(i)=..e 'to say
to', not e=..e 'to say', e.g., egiphe 'I said to him', but ehe 'I said'.
This is actually true of Omaha, too, as far as I know, i.e., it is
generally true in the OP texts collected by Dorsey.  The evidence of Osage
ephe (eps^e), etc., confirms that reduction of ph to h in OP is secondary
in e'=..e.

Confusingly, there is an adverb e'gihe 'headlong, onward without
hesitation'.


From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Feb  3 20:09:16 2002
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 14:09:16 -0600
Subject: pomme de terre
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.140916.0600.>

All of that is very interesting in light of the fact that the word for
'mushroom' in one of the Muskogean languages, Creek I think, is /pato/.
That makes it look like one of those "wanderwoerter" that we sometimes find
all over the hemisphere (as I recall mak 'hand' and wat 'boat' are others).


The Siouan form would come from a */-to/ root with a *wa- or *wi- prefix
that typically undergoes syncope to *wto and thence the various mdo, blo,
do, ato, etc. in the different languages.  It may have been a cover term for
a variety of slightly different tubers including the root of the common
sunflower or "Jerusalem artichoke", so named because it is neither from
Jerusalem nor is it an artichoke.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan H. Hartley
To: Siouan
Sent: 2/3/02 11:16 AM
Subject: pomme de terre

1813 R. STUART Oregon Trail (1953) 153

"we fell in with a large field of the root called by the Ottos "Toe" &
by the Canadians "Pomme de Terre," they are but seldom of larger
dimensions than a hens egg, with a rough warty brown skin, are never
more than six inches deep in the earth, and when boiled, resemble very
much in taste the sweet potato"

Is this Apios tuberosa/americana (ground nut), which I confuse with
Psoralea esculenta (Indian turnip, prairie potato, pomme blanche). I
assume it's the same as Dakota bdo/mdo, Lakota blo.

I ask for two reasons, one practical, the other far out:

 1.) to confirm a new meaning for pomme de terre in the OED.

 2.) to add to a continuing discussion on the Chinook Jargon listserv
about the etymology of wapato. The latter first appears as wapto in 1805
in the Lewis & Clark journals, with ref. to the lower Columbia where it
is cited as a native name for the edible aquatic root. The OED etymol.
Cree wapatowa 'white mushroom' doesn't seem very likely, and Howard
Berman (IJAL 1990) has suggested Kalapuyan *-pdo 'wapato; potato'
borrowed into Chinookan with its wa- added. Just fishing here, but the
superficial resemblance bdo~pdo, both referring to edible roots, caught
my eye. And then one can prefix the Ojibway and Cree wap- 'white' and
introduce it into Canadian French and then into Chinook Jargon...

Anyway, simply to learn the referent of pomme de terre would be enough,
and much safer.

Thanks,

Alan


From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Feb  3 20:28:27 2002
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 14:28:27 -0600
Subject: pomme de terre
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.142827.0600.>

>Teton blo, Santee mdo, Omaha-Ponca nu, Osage to, Ioway-Otoe to,
Winnebago too.  Proto-Mississippi Valley is something like *pro, presumably
from *w(a)-ro, and the *pr cluster becomes *R in Dhegiha, Ioway-otoe, and
Winnebago.

Sorry, senion moment.  John's right about the reconstructed root (pun
intended).  *ro, not *to.  The rest of my post is OK. I think the *pr
cluster is really *wr.  Dakotan [b] is from */w/, not *p.

Bob


From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Feb  3 20:32:08 2002
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 14:32:08 -0600
Subject: Omaha-Ponca 'to say' (RE:  Dhegiha prehistory, cont.)
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.143208.0600.>

>I've been meaning to comment in regard to this that my recollection is
that the ph first person is found in Ponca only with eg(i)=..e 'to say
to', not e=..e 'to say', e.g., egiphe 'I said to him', but ehe 'I said'.

Kathy confirms this in a note she sent me last week.  She has also uncovered
a few instances of /athe/ 'must have' that Mr. Williams was willing to
confirm/produce for her.

>The evidence of Osage ephe (eps^e), etc., confirms that reduction of ph to
h in OP is secondary in e'=..e.

Kaw too.

Bob


From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net  Sun Feb  3 20:51:49 2002
From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:51:49 -0800
Subject: pomme de terre
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.125149.0800.>

This wanderwort might have come from Algonquian. The closest thing there is
to a reconstructible Proto-Algonquian word for 'mushroom' is
*wa:pato:wa~*ato:wa (the 'optional' *wa:p- on the front means 'white'). With
'white' on the front, we have:

Illinois wa:panto:wa 'mushroom'
Ojibwe wa:bado: 'rhubarb, shelf fungus'
Potawatomi wabdo 'mushroom'
Menominee wa:patow 'mushroom'

Without the *wa:p- on the front, it's more irregular, but we at least have:

Shawnee hatowa 'mushroom'
Illinois ato:wa 'blood clot'
Fox ato:wa 'blood-clot'
Menominee wato:w 'ball'
Cree wato:w 'clot, ball made of hide-trimmings'
Montagnais utwi '(son) caillot du sang'
Penobscot ato'wsakwe 'jack o' lantern, false chanterelle' (mushroom species)

I personally have never quite been able to see why there should be a
semantic connection between blood clots and mushrooms. Maybe because both
can be ball-shaped (???) and 'ball' was the original meaning?

Anyway, the Creek form is presumably a loan from some Algonquian form with
the *wa:p- present on the front. Shawnee makes the most geographic sense,
tho no form such as **wa:patowa happens to be documented for Shawnee.

Dave Costa




----------
>From: "Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu>
>To: "'Alan H. Hartley '" <ahartley at d.umn.edu>, "'Siouan '"@hooch.Colorado.EDU
>Subject: RE: pomme de terre
>Date: Sun, Feb 3, 2002, 12:09 pm
>

> All of that is very interesting in light of the fact that the word for
> 'mushroom' in one of the Muskogean languages, Creek I think, is /pato/.
> That makes it look like one of those "wanderwoerter" that we sometimes find
> all over the hemisphere (as I recall mak 'hand' and wat 'boat' are others).
>


From shanwest at uvic.ca  Sun Feb  3 22:19:02 2002
From: shanwest at uvic.ca (Shannon West)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 14:19:02 -0800
Subject: pomme de terre
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.40.0202031156340.27842-100000@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.141902.0800.>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of Koontz John E
> Sent: February 3, 2002 11:26 AM
> To: Siouan
> Subject: Re: pomme de terre
>
>
> On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> > 1813 R. STUART Oregon Trail (1953) 153
> >
> > "we fell in with a large field of the root called by the
> Ottos "Toe" &
> > by the Canadians "Pomme de Terre," they are but seldom of larger
> > dimensions than a hens egg, with a rough warty brown skin, are never
> > more than six inches deep in the earth, and when boiled,
> resemble very
> > much in taste the sweet potato"
>
> Teton blo, Santee mdo, Omaha-Ponca nu, Osage to, Ioway-Otoe
> to, Winnebago
> too.  Proto-Mississippi Valley is something like *pro, presumably from
> *w(a)-ro, and the *pr cluster becomes *R in Dhegiha, Ioway-otoe, and
> Winnebago.

Assiniboine has another form, not the expected 'mno'.  Rather it's paNghi.
gh is voiced velar fricative - is that what we've been using here?  It's
quite uncommon in ASB.  I'm not positive of the nasalization there either.
I have it transcribed both ways, but I can 'hear it in my head', if you know
what I mean. :)

Shannon


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Mon Feb  4 01:36:19 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 19:36:19 -0600
Subject: pomme de terre
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.193619.0600.>

Thanks to Dave for the essay on Algonquian mushrooms and blood-clots,
and to Bob and John for theirs on Siouan pomme de terre. I'm happy to
learn that the referent is (usually?) Apios americana.

So, for wapato look-alikes, we have:

Chinook Jargon	wap(a)to 'wapato' (perh. < Chinookan wa- + Kalapuyan
-pdo)
Ojibway		wa:pado: 'rhubarb; shelf fungus' (< wa:p- 'white' + -ado:w-)
Dakotan		m-do 'ground-nut' (< *wa- + to 'Apios Americana')

They're probably accidental similarities: there's no evidence I know of
to support a chain of transmission Dakota (Algonquian) (> Can. Fr.) >
Chinook Jargon, though there certainly are cases of Ojibway (and Cree?)
words making it into CJ.

Thanks for all the help.

Alan

P.S. Yes, Bob, Creek pato is 'mushroom'.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Feb  4 04:44:37 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 21:44:37 -0700
Subject: pomme de terre
In-Reply-To: <F73B91BED37FD5119F970008C7CF50FC079F087D@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.214437.0700.>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> The Siouan form would come from a */-to/ root with a *wa- or *wi- prefix
> that typically undergoes syncope to *wto and thence the various mdo, blo,
> do, ato, etc. in the different languages.  It may have been a cover term for
> a variety of slightly different tubers including the root of the common
> sunflower or "Jerusalem artichoke", so named because it is neither from
> Jerusalem nor is it an artichoke.

Proto-Mississippi Valley for the Jerusalem artichoke is *hpaN'ghi, cf.
Dakotan phaNghi', OP ppaN'ghe, etc., but my impression is that modern
Omahas are not entirely sure which terms apply to what native tubers.  I
definitely wouldn't be surprised to find terminology varying locally
historically.  In modern OP nu' is 'potato' (apparently homophonous with
nu' 'man') and ppaN'ghe is 'radish'.  Incidentally, I've cooked commercial
Jerusalem artichoke, and my recollection is that it turns pinkish when
cooked.  I believe I read somewhere that lemon juice will inhibit this.
Jerusalem artichoke is not bad - a bit like artichoke heart, I guess.

In further support of Bob's comments, my recollection is that the Catawba
form compared to *pro is wituki.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Feb  4 05:09:15 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 22:09:15 -0700
Subject: Omaha-Ponca 'to say' (RE:  Dhegiha prehistory, cont.)
In-Reply-To: <F73B91BED37FD5119F970008C7CF50FC079F0880@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.220915.0700.>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> >I've been meaning to comment in regard to this that my recollection is
> that the ph first person is found in Ponca only with eg(i)=..e 'to say
> to', not e=..e 'to say', e.g., egiphe 'I said to him', but ehe 'I said'.
>
> Kathy confirms this in a note she sent me last week.  She has also uncovered
> a few instances of /athe/ 'must have' that Mr. Williams was willing to
> confirm/produce for her.

That's really great on the athe!  I'm curious about second persons, etc.,
of course.

I've sometimes argued that OP *ph > h (sporadic) might be influence from
the similar change in the first persons of 'say' in Winnebago and
Ioway-Otoe, but, of course, in itself this could be coincidence.  It also
needn't imply anything about proto-Mississippi Valley, since the Omaha and
Ponca were closely associated with the Otoes from at least the early 1700s
to the middle 1800s, and perhaps before that in some analyses of the Blood
Run site.

As far as I can recollect at the moment, the only examples of *ph to h in
Omaha-Ponca are *e=p-he 'I say' and *o-..phe 'to pass along'.  It doesn't
occur in, for example, aNphaN 'elk' or p-hi 'I arrive there'.  OK, it also
occurs in *z^o=..phe 'to wade' and *z^a=..phe 'to stab'.  Maybe also in a
root having to do with pounding in a mortar.


From enichol4 at attbi.com  Mon Feb  4 06:13:34 2002
From: enichol4 at attbi.com (Eric)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 00:13:34 -0600
Subject: pomme de terre
Message-ID: <MON.4.FEB.2002.001334.0600.>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan H. Hartley" <ahartley at d.umn.edu>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: pomme de terre


> Thanks to Dave for the essay on Algonquian mushrooms and blood-clots,
> and to Bob and John for theirs on Siouan pomme de terre. I'm happy to
> learn that the referent is (usually?) Apios americana.
>
> So, for wapato look-alikes, we have:
>
> Chinook Jargon wap(a)to 'wapato' (perh. < Chinookan wa- + Kalapuyan
> -pdo)
> Ojibway wa:pado: 'rhubarb; shelf fungus' (< wa:p- 'white' + -ado:w-)
> Dakotan m-do 'ground-nut' (< *wa- + to 'Apios Americana')
>
> They're probably accidental similarities: there's no evidence I know of
> to support a chain of transmission Dakota (Algonquian) (> Can. Fr.) >
> Chinook Jargon, though there certainly are cases of Ojibway (and Cree?)
> words making it into CJ.
>
> Thanks for all the help.
>
> Alan
>
> P.S. Yes, Bob, Creek pato is 'mushroom'.

Creek may have pato for 'mushroom', but Byington gives Choctaw chulahtuNsh,
luNslo, and pakti; Munro and Willmond give Chickasaw pakti'; Kimball gives
pakto' for Koasati; and Sylestine, Hardy and Montler have pakto for Alabama.

Eric


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Feb  4 06:38:18 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 23:38:18 -0700
Subject: *pr vs. *wr (RE: pomme de terre)
In-Reply-To: <F73B91BED37FD5119F970008C7CF50FC079F087F@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.233818.0700.>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> I think the *pr cluster is really *wr.  Dakotan [b] is from */w/, not
> *p.

Incidentally, I should have put do for 'potato' in Ioway-Otoe, since we've
been trying to write the voiced stops for the voiced to voiceless
unaspirated cases.

It's true that [b] (sometimes w or m) is from *W, and that we have every
reason to suspect that in the first persons of *r verbs and others that
syncopate the first person was originally *wa, reduced to *w, but I don't
think it's actually possible to distinguish *w and *p in *wr and *pr
clusters, and, given the phonetics of the *<?>r clusters, I think *pr is
probably the more reasonable value.

The following table summarizes my impression of the *pr/*wr sets.  The
actual distinctions follow the environment, including morphological class
of root.  I've pondered this data from time to and not come up with any
way to divide it into *pr and *wr cases except possibly by looking outside
Mississippi Valley, and not always even then.  Within, any divvying up
seems a matter of arbitrary fiat.  So, I prefer to say that we can't
distinguish them and to reconstruct *pr, since we also have *kr, though
only two sets that might be *tr (or *tw), with the proviso that *w + r
certain behaves as *pr and may explain most cases of it.

In certain environments (varying with the dialect/branch) *pr behaves as
*pR (Dakotan) or simplifies to *R (Dhegiha, IO and Wi).  Where Dhegiha,
IO, and Wi retain the labial, the reflex of *r is proper for *r, not *R.
Nasality seems to keep roots in the *r category in all dialects, but the
labial is mostly lost in sync with the loss in the corresponding oral
cluster.  We're not sure about *R vs. *r vs. *n before nasal vowels, so
it's hard to say whether Dakotan mni 'water' for, say *priN 'water' is *R
or *r or even *n behavior.

Pre-PMV   PMV             Vwl  Sa   Te   OP    OS     IO       Wi
          *pr (verb root) oral md   bl   bdh   br     br       pVrV
                          nas  mn   mn   bdh   br     br       pVrV
          *pr (medially)  oral md   bl   n     t ~ c  d ~ j^   d
                          nas  mn   mn   bdh   br     n ~ n~*  n
**w-r     *p-r (inflctn)  oral m-d  b-l  b-dh  b-r    d ~ j^   d
                          nas  m-n  m-n  b-dh  b-r    n ~ n~   n
**wV-r    *pr (noun root) oral md   bl   n     t ~ c  d ~ j^   d
                          nas  mn   mn   n     n      n ~ n~   n

* => br in '8', otherwise n~ in '3' and 'bean'

x ~ y is represents examples before back/low and front/high vowels, for
which, in some cases, the relevant examples do not occur.

Santee md (of Riggs) is actually bd, as far as I know, in most places.
I'm not sure about the dialect of the Santee reservation in Nebraska.
Yankton has bd, too.  Stoney and Assiniboine have mn - at least that's the
simplified version for non-students - but Stoney simplifies this to m in
verb inflection.

Examples:

Inflection - *r stems, of which there are examples with nasal root vowels,
though not cognate forms that I recall of hand, though 'have' is fairly
reliable.

Medial - with nasal following vowels, 'three' and 'eight' (where derived
from 'three') and 'bean', which is essentially regular, though it looks to
be a loan word.  With following oral vowel, 'woman's older brother', which
looks like a compound of 'house' and 'male'.

Verb root initials - things like 'flat' (oral) and 'have an odor' (nasal)

Noun root initials - things like 'lake' and 'male' and 'potato' (oral) and
'water' (nasal)

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Feb  4 07:05:35 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 00:05:35 -0700
Subject: pomme de terre
In-Reply-To: <E16XTcr-0007EO-00@falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <MON.4.FEB.2002.000535.0700.>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, David Costa wrote:
> This wanderwort might have come from Algonquian. The closest thing
> there is to a reconstructible Proto-Algonquian word for 'mushroom' is
> *wa:pato:wa~*ato:wa (the 'optional' *wa:p- on the front means
> 'white').

I looked at 'mushroom' in MVS, just out of curiosity.  For 'prairie
puffball' Gilmore gives Dakota (Santee) hoks^i' c^hekpa' 'baby navel'.  He
seems not to have collected terms in the other languages he looked at,
though he has some discussion of usage, say, for the Omaha.  He says the
Pawnee call it kaho rahik 'old kaho', referring to the older stage, which
is gathered for use as a stiptic, applied, for example, to baby's navels,
which he believes explains the Dakota name.

Looking in Swetland & Stabler (or Stabler & Swetland) and in LaFlesche, I
find mika exthi [mikka?exdhi] and mikkak?e for 'mushroom'.  This seems to
be suspiciously close to 'star'.  It could be analysed as 'racoon(s) dig
(it)'.  The xdhi part in Omaha may be explained by the term Gilmore gives
for 'corn smut', which is wahaba xdhi 'corn sores', where xdhi is
'sore(s)'.

I didn't manage to locate any additional terms for 'mushroom' in Dakotan,
though I looked briefly.  I also couldn't find an Ioway-Otoe term.  The
Winnebago terms were 'ghost' (or 'frog') plus 'umbrella' and 'ghost' + po'
(not glossed). There's a smear after po' in my copy of Miner, so perhaps
po' is only the first syllable.  I think the smear was in the original.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Feb  4 07:12:31 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 00:12:31 -0700
Subject: pomme de terre
In-Reply-To: <004101c1ad43$14440260$a096fb0c@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <MON.4.FEB.2002.001231.0700.>

On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Eric wrote:
> Creek may have pato for 'mushroom', but Byington gives Choctaw chulahtuNsh,
> luNslo, and pakti; Munro and Willmond give Chickasaw pakti'; Kimball gives
> pakto' for Koasati; and Sylestine, Hardy and Montler have pakto for Alabama.

I'm going to bet Creek pato, Choc. pakti, Chick pakti, Koas. pakto', Alab.
pakto are the set.

JEK


From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  4 14:42:07 2002
From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 06:42:07 -0800
Subject: pomme de terre
Message-ID: <MON.4.FEB.2002.064207.0800.>

Hmmm... If Alabama has pakto and Koasati has pakto', then probably the
resemblance between Creek pato and the Algonquian forms is just a
coincidence. This looks like a legit Muskogean cognate set.

David

----------
>From: Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
>To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
>Subject: Re: pomme de terre
>Date: Sun, Feb 3, 2002, 11:12 pm
>

> On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Eric wrote:
>> Creek may have pato for 'mushroom', but Byington gives Choctaw chulahtuNsh,
>> luNslo, and pakti; Munro and Willmond give Chickasaw pakti'; Kimball gives
>> pakto' for Koasati; and Sylestine, Hardy and Montler have pakto for Alabama.
>
> I'm going to bet Creek pato, Choc. pakti, Chick pakti, Koas. pakto', Alab.
> pakto are the set.
>
> JEK
>


From munro at ucla.edu  Mon Feb  4 15:30:04 2002
From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 07:30:04 -0800
Subject: pomme de terre
Message-ID: <MON.4.FEB.2002.073004.0800.>

David and John are right, I think -- the k loss in Creek is a common if not
regular process.

Pam



David Costa wrote:

> Hmmm... If Alabama has pakto and Koasati has pakto', then probably the
> resemblance between Creek pato and the Algonquian forms is just a
> coincidence. This looks like a legit Muskogean cognate set.
>
> David
>
> ----------
> >From: Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
> >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> >Subject: Re: pomme de terre
> >Date: Sun, Feb 3, 2002, 11:12 pm
> >
>
> > On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Eric wrote:
> >> Creek may have pato for 'mushroom', but Byington gives Choctaw chulahtuNsh,
> >> luNslo, and pakti; Munro and Willmond give Chickasaw pakti'; Kimball gives
> >> pakto' for Koasati; and Sylestine, Hardy and Montler have pakto for Alabama.
> >
> > I'm going to bet Creek pato, Choc. pakti, Chick pakti, Koas. pakto', Alab.
> > pakto are the set.
> >
> > JEK
> >


From BARudes at aol.com  Mon Feb  4 15:41:39 2002
From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 10:41:39 EST
Subject: pomme de terre
Message-ID: <MON.4.FEB.2002.104139.EST.>

The Catawba word for potato is 'wiNti: ki:  'literally, "root the".

Blair


From rankin at ku.edu  Mon Feb  4 23:04:36 2002
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:04:36 -0600
Subject: pomme de terre
Message-ID: <MON.4.FEB.2002.170436.0600.>

 Thisis so.  I should have looked at the Choctaw and other related forms
before posting.  I only remembered the Creek form.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Koontz John E
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Sent: 2/4/02 1:12 AM
Subject: Re: pomme de terre

On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Eric wrote:
> Creek may have pato for 'mushroom', but Byington gives Choctaw
chulahtuNsh,
> luNslo, and pakti; Munro and Willmond give Chickasaw pakti'; Kimball
gives
> pakto' for Koasati; and Sylestine, Hardy and Montler have pakto for
Alabama.

I'm going to bet Creek pato, Choc. pakti, Chick pakti, Koas. pakto',
Alab.
pakto are the set.

JEK


From rankin at ku.edu  Mon Feb  4 23:11:03 2002
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:11:03 -0600
Subject: pomme de terre
Message-ID: <MON.4.FEB.2002.171103.0600.>

>Assiniboine has another form, not the expected 'mno'.  Rather it's
paNghi.

Yeah, that comes up in Kaw (Kansa) as 'gourd' often enough.  It's what the
dancing mice con coyote into eating in the farting story.

Bob


From rankin at ku.edu  Mon Feb  4 23:31:58 2002
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:31:58 -0600
Subject: *pr vs. *wr (RE: pomme de terre)
Message-ID: <MON.4.FEB.2002.173158.0600.>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> I think the *pr cluster is really *wr.  Dakotan [b] is from */w/, not
> *p.

>It's true that [b] (sometimes w or m) is from *W, and that we have every
reason to suspect that in the first persons of *r verbs and others that
syncopate the first person was originally *wa, reduced to *w, but I
don't think it's actually possible to distinguish *w and *p in *wr and *pr
clusters, and, given the phonetics of the *<?>r clusters, I think *pr is
probably the more reasonable value.

I don't think there are any *pr clusters; they can all be derived from *wC.
The only one I can recall as even a possibility is in 'flat', which is a
widespread form with similar terms in Muskogean and so probably a borrowing.

Siouan /pC/ clusters outside of the 1st persons of verbs come overwhelmingly
from prefixes like *wa- or *wi- (the latter for animates, foodstuffs and a
few other terms). Considering the morphology, the *w emerges clearly as the
front-runner.

>The following table summarizes my impression of the *pr/*wr sets.  The
actual distinctions follow the environment, including morphological
class of root.  I've pondered this data from time to and not come up with
any way to divide it into *pr and *wr cases except possibly by looking
outside Mississippi Valley,...

Well, I think that's the first thing to do!  Go where the evidence is.  As
for MVS, I tried to show in my Siouan Conf. paper last year that [b] is
still an allophone of /w/ even synchronically.  It's been phonologized in a
few dialects, but mostly not.

>Within, any divvying up
>seems a matter of arbitrary fiat.  So, I prefer to say that we can't
distinguish them and to reconstruct *pr, since we also have *kr, though
only two sets that might be *tr (or *tw), with the proviso that *w + r
certain behaves as *pr and may explain most cases of it.

>In certain environments (varying with the dialect/branch) *pr behaves as
*pR (Dakotan) or simplifies to *R (Dhegiha, IO and Wi).  Where Dhegiha,
IO, and Wi retain the labial, the reflex of *r is proper for *r, not *R.
Nasality seems to keep roots in the *r category in all dialects, but the
labial is mostly lost in sync with the loss in the corresponding oral
cluster.  We're not sure about *R vs. *r vs. *n before nasal vowels, so
it's hard to say whether Dakotan mni 'water' for, say *priN 'water' is
*R
or *r or even *n behavior.

>Pre-PMV   PMV             Vwl  Sa   Te   OP    OS     IO       Wi
          *pr (verb root) oral md   bl   bdh   br     br       pVrV
                          nas  mn   mn   bdh   br     br       pVrV
          *pr (medially)  oral md   bl   n     t ~ c  d ~ j^   d
                          nas  mn   mn   bdh   br     n ~ n~*  n
**w-r     *p-r (inflctn)  oral m-d  b-l  b-dh  b-r    d ~ j^   d
                          nas  m-n  m-n  b-dh  b-r    n ~ n~   n
**wV-r    *pr (noun root) oral md   bl   n     t ~ c  d ~ j^   d
                          nas  mn   mn   n     n      n ~ n~   n

* => br in '8', otherwise n~ in '3' and 'bean'

>x ~ y is represents examples before back/low and front/high vowels, for
which, in some cases, the relevant examples do not occur.

>Santee md (of Riggs) is actually bd, as far as I know, in most places.
I'm not sure about the dialect of the Santee reservation in Nebraska.
Yankton has bd, too.  Stoney and Assiniboine have mn - at least that's
the
simplified version for non-students - but Stoney simplifies this to m in
verb inflection.

E>xamples:

Inflection - *r stems, of which there are examples with nasal root
vowels,
though not cognate forms that I recall of hand, though 'have' is fairly
reliable.

>Medial - with nasal following vowels, 'three' and 'eight' (where derived
from 'three') and 'bean', which is essentially regular, though it looks
to be a loan word.  With following oral vowel, 'woman's older brother',
which looks like a compound of 'house' and 'male'.

>Verb root initials - things like 'flat' (oral) and 'have an odor'
(nasal)

>Noun root initials - things like 'lake' and 'male' and 'potato' (oral)
and
'water' (nasal)

While I think it's important to chart out the sound correspondences as John
has done so thoroughly, in the final analysis it's necessary to figure out
what the morphemes are that are being represented in these frozen prefixes
of MVS.  Once you see that they go back to wa-s and wi-s, the phonological
source of the sets and their phonetic trajectories become clear.

The questionable tw or tr clusters seem to have kw origins outside of Siouan
probably, but this brings up a point.  There are numerous Dakotan clusters
that, so far as I know, no one has ever figured out.  These include sw, s^w,
xw, gm (some from kwVN) among others.

Bob


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue Feb  5 05:09:42 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 22:09:42 -0700
Subject: pomme de terre
In-Reply-To: <F73B91BED37FD5119F970008C7CF50FC079F0882@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.4.FEB.2002.220942.0700.>

> > Assiniboine has another form, not the expected 'mno'.  Rather it's
> > paNghi.
>
> Yeah, that comes up in Kaw (Kansa) as 'gourd' often enough.  It's what the
> dancing mice con coyote into eating in the farting story.

And so, presumably that's what the Trickster eats in the Omaha-Ponca and
Winnebago and Mandan (and Wichita and Cheyenne) stories?  Somehow I'd
imagined it was blo ~ nu, though I can't say that anything I've read
specifies, now that I think about it.

One of the best versions I've ever seen of this is the Mandan one recorded
by Dick Carter.  My recollections of it never failed to amuse my daughters
when they were young.  "Tell us the wild potato story, Daddy!"  I guess
the story of diving for plums was a close second.  Of course, I don't know
any of the songs and my story telling technique is pathetic.

In the Mandan version it's the largest "wild potato" (the Ancient of Wild
Potatoes, I guess!) who dialogs with Trickster (Whiteman), and the
impression is given that it is Trickster who fools himself in the face of
the honest warnings of the largest wild potato.

JEK


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Wed Feb  6 02:09:30 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:09:30 -0600
Subject: pomme de terre
Message-ID: <TUE.5.FEB.2002.200930.0600.>

Gary Moulton's footnote to Lewis' "common wild pittatoe" (VII.224):

Apios americana..Indian potato, ground nut, potato bean. It grows on the
banks of streams and floodplains and "is the true pomme de terre of the
French and the modo or wild potato of the Sioux Indians"... Report of
Commissioner of Agriculture for 1870

Note mdo.

Alan


From egooding at iupui.edu  Wed Feb  6 03:15:10 2002
From: egooding at iupui.edu (Erik Gooding)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 22:15:10 -0500
Subject: pomme de terre
In-Reply-To: <3C60905A.E28AFA3B@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.5.FEB.2002.221510.0500.>

I haven't followed this line closely, this may have been offered up
already, but mdo is the Santee-Sisseton Dakota for of the Lakota blo. I
can't remember the Yankton-Yanktonai form off the top of my head. I'm
digging through my Stoney fieldnotes to see if I can find the form there also.

EG

At 08:09 PM 2/5/02 -0600, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
>Gary Moulton's footnote to Lewis' "common wild pittatoe" (VII.224):
>
>Apios americana..Indian potato, ground nut, potato bean. It grows on the
>banks of streams and floodplains and "is the true pomme de terre of the
>French and the modo or wild potato of the Sioux Indians"... Report of
>Commissioner of Agriculture for 1870
>
>Note mdo.
>
>Alan
>
>


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Wed Feb  6 19:57:22 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 13:57:22 -0600
Subject: Siouanists, eat your heart out.
Message-ID: <WED.6.FEB.2002.135722.0600.>

M. Lewis 1 Aug. 1806 (Jrnls. VIII.145):

"I determined to halt..and indeavour to dry my skins of the bighorn
which had every appearance of spoiling, an event which I would not
should happen"

Alan


From rankin at ku.edu  Wed Feb  6 21:59:01 2002
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 15:59:01 -0600
Subject: Siouanists, eat your heart out.
Message-ID: <WED.6.FEB.2002.155901.0600.>

That's very nice.  I was just telling a Cherokee fellow in my Indian
Languages survey class that it didn't matter linguistically whether or not
he spoke like his grandfather did, because all languages evolve constantly.
This is a good case in point.  How many generations has it been since
'would' was truly the past tense of 'will' and was required by the
sequence-of-tenses rules in English sentences like the one below?  I'll use
the example in my next class.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan H. Hartley
To: Siouan
Sent: 2/6/02 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: Siouanists, eat your heart out.

M. Lewis 1 Aug. 1806 (Jrnls. VIII.145):

"I determined to halt..and indeavour to dry my skins of the bighorn
which had every appearance of spoiling, an event which I would not
should happen"

Alan


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Wed Feb  6 22:16:19 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 16:16:19 -0600
Subject: Siouanists, eat your heart out.
Message-ID: <WED.6.FEB.2002.161619.0600.>

Bob Rankin wrote:

> How many generations has it been since
> 'would' was truly the past tense of 'will' and was required by the
> sequence-of-tenses rules in English sentences like the one below?

These are the latest examples in the OED, Tennyson's being archaizing:

1643 [Angier] Lanc. Vall. Achor 18 When we would no Pardon they laboured
to punish us.

1682 Bunyan Holy War (1905) 263 He would that Captain Credence should
join himself with them.

1692 Washington tr. Milton's Def. People xii. 238 To perform, not what
he himself would, but what the People..requir'd of him.

1868 Tennyson Lucretius 68 Because I would not one of thine own doves,
Not ev'n a rose, were offer'd to thee.

The usage is, of course, recorded from Old English (c. A.D. 900) on.

Apologies for extending this non-Siouan excursus.

Alan


From rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu  Thu Feb  7 01:56:46 2002
From: rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu (rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 19:56:46 -0600
Subject: Omaha athe'
Message-ID: <WED.6.FEB.2002.195646.0600.>

Well, after all that build-up three weeks ago, I have
to report bad news on /athe'/.  We had both speakers
in class together recently, and I tried to expand on
the expression / AzhaN' athe' /, which Emmaline had
volunteered the previous session.  Alberta promptly
stopped me to correct my grammar: the expression was
/ AzhaN' the /; there was no a- there.  I looked
pleadingly at Emmaline; she smiled and deferred to
Alberta.  I tried the you, we and s/he forms; Alberta
was emphatic that it was simply /the/ in each case.
Both ladies took great amusement at the way I rolled
my eyes.

Emmaline's parents were uncommonly fluent speakers
of Omaha, but Alberta Canby is about a generation
older and has often shown herself to be very clear
and reliable in her explanation of the language.
It's possible that I prejudiced Emmaline in the
first instance by having quoted the expressions in
Dorsey that Bob was interested in confirming.  In
any case, I'm afraid the trail has run out at this
end.

I should note too that Alberta's use of /the/ here
is precisely in accord semantically with what John
has been saying all along, though I'm still having
trouble seeing it that way in Dorsey.  I'll want
to pursue this particle further.

Rory




                    rlarson at unlnotes01.un
                    l.edu                       To:     siouan at lists.colorado.edu
                    Sent by:                    cc:
                    owner-siouan at lists.co       Subject:     Re: Attn: Dhegiholics.
                    lorado.edu


                    01/14/2002 06:33 PM
                    Please respond to
                    siouan







Bob,

I submitted your sentences to Emmaline Sanchez, one of our two Omaha
speakers, in class today.  She had no trouble at all accepting the
two sentences from Dorsey as valid:

     Na!  Agdha'the athe'!
     Well!  I must have eaten it (my own)!

     Agdha'sni kki azhaN' athe'!
     When I swallowed it, I must have been asleep!

When I tried to conjugate it, though, I got into trouble.  Something
like

     Dhagdha'the dhathe'!

sounded redundant, as the last word also means 'eat'.  In fact, at
one point in there it seemed she was telling me that athe' itself
could also mean 'eat', which it probably does if they elide the
initial dh-.  (I ruefully recall a moment last semester when I was
all ready to rush onto the list with news of the discovery of a
brand new article, iNkhe'.)

I think I got acceptance when I tried athe' with 2nd and 3rd person
forms, but I'm not quite sure, as we were possibly at the point of
confusion by then.  I'll try running these by them again later.

In the first person, at least, I think we're clear that this form
is valid and still used in Omaha.  Emmaline explained the word athe'
as meaning you must have done something, and even offered an example
of her own.  If someone tells you they were trying to get a hold of
you at ten o'clock the previous morning, you can tell them:

     AzhaN' athe'.
     I must have been sleeping.

> WHAT I'D LIKE TO FIND OUT IS WHETHER THIS IS REALLY A CONJUGATED
> "EVIDENTIAL ARTICLE" OR SOME OTHER, UNIDENTIFIED, PARTICLE.

At present, the evidence here seems to be that athe' is an
independent particle that does not conjugate.  We'll need to do a
little more work to be sure of this, however.

Rory


From kdshea at ku.edu  Thu Feb  7 06:09:58 2002
From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 00:09:58 -0600
Subject: Omaha athe'
Message-ID: <THU.7.FEB.2002.000958.0600.>

I'm somewhat slow in responding to some of the recent postings, but I
thought I'd at least try to copy and paste some of what I e-mailed to Bob
Rankin concerning the athe' issue in Ponca, which I reproduce below
(somewhat edited):

I finally did get an /athe/ form from Uncle Parrish, but not where I
expected it.  I gave him the three sentences you suggested, even letting him
read the printout of your message, and here's what I got (with accents after
the vowel, or after the first vowel letter of a double "long" vowel) for "I
must have forgotten to feed the cat;" "I must have been walking in my
sleep;" and "I must have drunk up all the milk last night (but I don't
remember it)":

ppu'si dhiNkhe i'bdhis^i'the agi'sidha maNz^i(N)  (actually, "I forgot to
feed the cat.")

z^aNda'dhiNge maNbdhiN ebdhegaN  "Maybe I was walking in my sleep."
maNze'ni the bdhuga bdha'sni ebdhe'gaN haN'edi  " Maybe I drank all that
milk up last night."

I tried to elicit some 1st person inclusive forms and got these:

maNze'ni the bdhuga aNdha'sni u'dhiNwiNtti the'tta pidu'ba dhiNwiN dhe'wadhe
"We must have drunk all the milk; let's go to the store and buy some more."

maNze'nithe bdhuga aNdha(N)'sni aN'gathaN  "We drank all this milk up."

However, later Uncle Parrish was telling me about young men who claim to be
imparting wisdom by saying "Nia's^iga is^?a'ge gathe'gidhaN awa'naN?aN" ("I
heard some old folks say this"), in other words, according to hearsay, or
"Gathega is^?age iNwiNdhai" ("This is the way that old man told me").  If an
elderly man was listening, he'd remark, "Eb(e) uwi'dhabi'athe?"  ("I wonder
who told him?").  The implication was that the young men should name their
sources in order to speak with authority.  This last Ponca sentence has an
instance of the /athe/ everyone's been talking about.  It seems here to be
accompanied by a meaning of wonder or speculation.

Another example with /athe/:

e'b(e) ugi'ppidhabi'athe  "I wonder who filled it (i.e., my car with gas)."
(PW says here that "who" can refer to one or more persons.)

However, Uncle Parrish also came up with the following question and answer,
which doesn't contain /athe/, showing the difficulting of eliciting
sentences containing /athe/, at least on first pass:

e'b(e)ugi'ppidhe skene'gaNwa  "Who do you think filled it up?"

dhiz^iN'iNdhe ama ugi'ppidhai  "Your older brother filled it up."

Kathy Shea

P.s.  I'm wondering, considering the difficulty we have getting the
inclusive, second, and third person forms, if there's a remote possibility
that the /a/ of /athe/ could be the sentence-final question particle of an
embedded sentence since the sentences ending in /athe/ in the above examples
have to do with wondering, or asking oneself if something's true.

    ----- Original Message -----
From: <rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: Omaha athe'


>
> Well, after all that build-up three weeks ago, I have
> to report bad news on /athe'/.  We had both speakers
> in class together recently, and I tried to expand on
> the expression / AzhaN' athe' /, which Emmaline had
> volunteered the previous session.  Alberta promptly
> stopped me to correct my grammar: the expression was
> / AzhaN' the /; there was no a- there.  I looked
> pleadingly at Emmaline; she smiled and deferred to
> Alberta.  I tried the you, we and s/he forms; Alberta
> was emphatic that it was simply /the/ in each case.
> Both ladies took great amusement at the way I rolled
> my eyes.
>
> Emmaline's parents were uncommonly fluent speakers
> of Omaha, but Alberta Canby is about a generation
> older and has often shown herself to be very clear
> and reliable in her explanation of the language.
> It's possible that I prejudiced Emmaline in the
> first instance by having quoted the expressions in
> Dorsey that Bob was interested in confirming.  In
> any case, I'm afraid the trail has run out at this
> end.
>
> I should note too that Alberta's use of /the/ here
> is precisely in accord semantically with what John
> has been saying all along, though I'm still having
> trouble seeing it that way in Dorsey.  I'll want
> to pursue this particle further.
>
> Rory
>
>
>
>
>                     rlarson at unlnotes01.un
>                     l.edu                       To:
siouan at lists.colorado.edu
>                     Sent by:                    cc:
>                     owner-siouan at lists.co       Subject:     Re: Attn:
Dhegiholics.
>                     lorado.edu
>
>
>                     01/14/2002 06:33 PM
>                     Please respond to
>                     siouan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bob,
>
> I submitted your sentences to Emmaline Sanchez, one of our two Omaha
> speakers, in class today.  She had no trouble at all accepting the
> two sentences from Dorsey as valid:
>
>      Na!  Agdha'the athe'!
>      Well!  I must have eaten it (my own)!
>
>      Agdha'sni kki azhaN' athe'!
>      When I swallowed it, I must have been asleep!
>
> When I tried to conjugate it, though, I got into trouble.  Something
> like
>
>      Dhagdha'the dhathe'!
>
> sounded redundant, as the last word also means 'eat'.  In fact, at
> one point in there it seemed she was telling me that athe' itself
> could also mean 'eat', which it probably does if they elide the
> initial dh-.  (I ruefully recall a moment last semester when I was
> all ready to rush onto the list with news of the discovery of a
> brand new article, iNkhe'.)
>
> I think I got acceptance when I tried athe' with 2nd and 3rd person
> forms, but I'm not quite sure, as we were possibly at the point of
> confusion by then.  I'll try running these by them again later.
>
> In the first person, at least, I think we're clear that this form
> is valid and still used in Omaha.  Emmaline explained the word athe'
> as meaning you must have done something, and even offered an example
> of her own.  If someone tells you they were trying to get a hold of
> you at ten o'clock the previous morning, you can tell them:
>
>      AzhaN' athe'.
>      I must have been sleeping.
>
> > WHAT I'D LIKE TO FIND OUT IS WHETHER THIS IS REALLY A CONJUGATED
> > "EVIDENTIAL ARTICLE" OR SOME OTHER, UNIDENTIFIED, PARTICLE.
>
> At present, the evidence here seems to be that athe' is an
> independent particle that does not conjugate.  We'll need to do a
> little more work to be sure of this, however.
>
> Rory
>
>
>
>


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu Feb  7 14:57:56 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 07:57:56 -0700
Subject: Omaha athe'
In-Reply-To: <003b01c1af9e$12d7a320$4409ed81@9afl3>
Message-ID: <THU.7.FEB.2002.075756.0700.>

On Thu, 7 Feb 2002, Kathleen Shea wrote:
> P.s.  I'm wondering, considering the difficulty we have getting the
> inclusive, second, and third person forms, if there's a remote possibility
> that the /a/ of /athe/ could be the sentence-final question particle of an
> embedded sentence since the sentences ending in /athe/ in the above examples
> have to do with wondering, or asking oneself if something's true.

As a matter of fact, looking at your examples, the same thing occurred to
me, though the order is pretty weird, and I'm not sure how to go about
testing the hypothesis.  I guess the sentences should make sense with the
/the/ omitted.

JEK


From cqcq at compuserve.com  Thu Feb  7 18:48:29 2002
From: cqcq at compuserve.com (Carolyn Quintero)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 13:48:29 -0500
Subject: pomme de terre
Message-ID: <THU.7.FEB.2002.134829.0500.>

I think the Osage root for 'potato' has a long vowel.  too'ska 'white
potato' --the common variety.
Carolyn


From are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu  Fri Feb  8 00:32:46 2002
From: are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu (Ardis R Eschenberg)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 19:32:46 -0500
Subject: pomme de terre and atHe
In-Reply-To: <200202071348_MC3-F11E-4C7@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <THU.7.FEB.2002.193246.0500.>

Hi.  I'm very behind on keeping up with things but a few notes.
1. Re:atHe in Kathy's sentences (which are SO nice), I am pretty sure it
might be the question particle (which is very optional for men in Omaha
anyway and therefore would less reliably elicit).

I haven't seen conjugated tHe for what it's worth.

2. Mushroom in OP - I know it's not historically what yer looking for, but
the common mushroom here is morel and it's tenixa gthezhe (spotted cow
stomach).

Regards,
Ardis


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Feb  8 05:16:27 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:16:27 -0700
Subject: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre
Message-ID: <THU.7.FEB.2002.221627.0700.>

I ran across a potato in:

Wedel, Mildred Mott.  1974.  LeSueur and the Dakota Sioux.  pp.  157-172,
Aspects of Upper Great Lakes Anthropology:  Papers in Honor of Lloyd A.
Wilford.  Ed. by Elden Johnson.  With a combined list of references. St.
Paul:  Minnesota Historical Society.

This article includes a list of early village (hence band) names, one of
which is Menostamenaton, glossed as Nation de la pomme de terre.  I assume
Meno is mno and ton is thuN[waN] 'village, band'.  I can't figure out
stamena, though -na might be the diminutive.

Warning - these names are not always glossed correctly, and the spelling
may be mangled at either the hearing stage or some later transcriptional
stage, e.g., Yanktons comes out Hinhanetonsouanons, where one might expect
Hi(n)hanctonouanons, for IhaNkthuNwaN=na 'little end-villagers'.  The
extra -s- may be a result of analyzing the form as Hinhanetons ouanons,
with a modifier (agreeing in number in French).

This latter was actually glossed 'village de la pierre separee des
autres', which I make 'stone village separated from the others'.  I think
this refers to the gloss 'Stone Sioux' for Ojibwa Assiniboine (assini- is
'stone' and boine is 'Sioux'), cf. Engish Stoney.

In this context, the 'separated from the others' is an early reference (c.
1683) to the notion that the Yanktonais are a group of Assiniboine/Stoney
Sioux who have separated from the rest and joined the Seven Council Fires
grouping instead.

This is a kind of fun list, if anyone is interested in old band names,
which are often nice early sources of vocabulary, e.g., the very first
name in the list is Tangapsinton 'village de la Crosse', Perhaps
representing tham-kapsin-thuN[waN] or something like 'ball-playing
village', from thapa 'ball' + kapsic^a 'to make jump with a blow, as in
shinney' (or kapsiNta 'to whip'?) + thuN[waN] 'village, band'.  Williams
gives t[h]akapsic^api as 'lacrosse'.  Riggs has t[h]akapsic^a 'to play
ball by taking up the ball in the club and throwing it' and
t[h]akic^apsic^a 'a ball club'.  Perhaps kapsic^a 'throw with a stick' is
a specialized meaning of 'make jump with a blow'.  It looks like the
t[h]a- in Santee is a reduction of thapa, corresponding in comparable
words to Teton thab-.  In this context, the -n- in Tan-gapsintons becomes
interesting.  Rather than nasalization, it's probably a reflection of -m
in tham-, a Santee vesion of thab-.

A better known example of a disappearing -n is Teton, if it's based on
thiNta 'prairie'.  In that case ThithuNwaN has to be reduced from
thiNl-thuNwaN, pronounced [thiNn=thuNwaN].

Another of LeSueur's village names that I just figured out, because it
*is* glossed correctly, is Ouidaougecunaton 'nation de l'Isle pleine' or
'People of the full island'.  Ouida is clearly wita 'island', but ougecuna
is somewhat obscure:  uz^kuna?  However, since oz^ula is Teton for 'full',
I suspect this is a misreading of ouge-ou-na.  So it really is
'full-island people'.

JEK


From egooding at iupui.edu  Fri Feb  8 13:59:03 2002
From: egooding at iupui.edu (Erik Gooding)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 08:59:03 -0500
Subject: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.40.0202072117320.20080-100000@spot.colorado.edu >
Message-ID: <FRI.8.FEB.2002.085903.0500.>

See Doug Parks' and Ray DeMallie's work on this list in the Handbook of
North American Indians, p. 723-24. They answer  most of your question
including stamena.

At 10:16 PM 2/7/02 -0700, Koontz John E wrote:
>I ran across a potato in:
>
>Wedel, Mildred Mott.  1974.  LeSueur and the Dakota Sioux.  pp.  157-172,
>Aspects of Upper Great Lakes Anthropology:  Papers in Honor of Lloyd A.
>Wilford.  Ed. by Elden Johnson.  With a combined list of references. St.
>Paul:  Minnesota Historical Society.
>
>This article includes a list of early village (hence band) names, one of
>which is Menostamenaton, glossed as Nation de la pomme de terre.  I assume
>Meno is mno and ton is thuN[waN] 'village, band'.  I can't figure out
>stamena, though -na might be the diminutive.
>
>Warning - these names are not always glossed correctly, and the spelling
>may be mangled at either the hearing stage or some later transcriptional
>stage, e.g., Yanktons comes out Hinhanetonsouanons, where one might expect
>Hi(n)hanctonouanons, for IhaNkthuNwaN=na 'little end-villagers'.  The
>extra -s- may be a result of analyzing the form as Hinhanetons ouanons,
>with a modifier (agreeing in number in French).
>
>This latter was actually glossed 'village de la pierre separee des
>autres', which I make 'stone village separated from the others'.  I think
>this refers to the gloss 'Stone Sioux' for Ojibwa Assiniboine (assini- is
>'stone' and boine is 'Sioux'), cf. Engish Stoney.
>
>In this context, the 'separated from the others' is an early reference (c.
>1683) to the notion that the Yanktonais are a group of Assiniboine/Stoney
>Sioux who have separated from the rest and joined the Seven Council Fires
>grouping instead.
>
>This is a kind of fun list, if anyone is interested in old band names,
>which are often nice early sources of vocabulary, e.g., the very first
>name in the list is Tangapsinton 'village de la Crosse', Perhaps
>representing tham-kapsin-thuN[waN] or something like 'ball-playing
>village', from thapa 'ball' + kapsic^a 'to make jump with a blow, as in
>shinney' (or kapsiNta 'to whip'?) + thuN[waN] 'village, band'.  Williams
>gives t[h]akapsic^api as 'lacrosse'.  Riggs has t[h]akapsic^a 'to play
>ball by taking up the ball in the club and throwing it' and
>t[h]akic^apsic^a 'a ball club'.  Perhaps kapsic^a 'throw with a stick' is
>a specialized meaning of 'make jump with a blow'.  It looks like the
>t[h]a- in Santee is a reduction of thapa, corresponding in comparable
>words to Teton thab-.  In this context, the -n- in Tan-gapsintons becomes
>interesting.  Rather than nasalization, it's probably a reflection of -m
>in tham-, a Santee vesion of thab-.
>
>A better known example of a disappearing -n is Teton, if it's based on
>thiNta 'prairie'.  In that case ThithuNwaN has to be reduced from
>thiNl-thuNwaN, pronounced [thiNn=thuNwaN].
>
>Another of LeSueur's village names that I just figured out, because it
>*is* glossed correctly, is Ouidaougecunaton 'nation de l'Isle pleine' or
>'People of the full island'.  Ouida is clearly wita 'island', but ougecuna
>is somewhat obscure:  uz^kuna?  However, since oz^ula is Teton for 'full',
>I suspect this is a misreading of ouge-ou-na.  So it really is
>'full-island people'.
>
>JEK
>
>


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Sat Feb  9 15:36:37 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 09:36:37 -0600
Subject: MANDAN redux (was Re: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre)
Message-ID: <SAT.9.FEB.2002.093637.0600.>

Erik Gooding wrote:
>
> See Doug Parks' and Ray DeMallie's work on this list in the Handbook of
> North American Indians, p. 723-24.

Item no. 9. on the list of eastern Sioux village names of Le Sueur
(1699-1702) is Mantanton. The -ton is Sioux -thuN 'village', and the
balance appears identical to MANDAN. Le Sueur apparently glosses the
name (or describes the group) twice, as 'N[ation] de la Grosse Roche'
and as 'village d'un grand lac qui se decharge dans un petit'. DeMallie,
the author of the HNAI article, doesn't give a retranscription of the
name.

This group (east of the Mississippi?) is a long way from the Mandan, but
the similarity in the form of the name is really striking, perhaps
showing a Sioux toponym/ethnonym type common to Santee and Assiniboine
(which was the source of the early 18c. French Mantanne).

If anyone can make a connection between Mantan and Le Sueur's glosses,
I'd much appreciate a note.

Alan


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Feb 10 06:55:45 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 23:55:45 -0700
Subject: MANDAN redux (was Re: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre)
In-Reply-To: <3C654205.EFAC41FA@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.9.FEB.2002.235545.0700.>

On Sat, 9 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> Item no. 9. on the list of eastern Sioux village names of Le Sueur
> (1699-1702) is Mantanton. The -ton is Sioux -thuN 'village', and the
> balance appears identical to MANDAN. Le Sueur apparently glosses the
> name (or describes the group) twice, as 'N[ation] de la Grosse Roche'
> and as 'village d'un grand lac qui se decharge dans un petit'. DeMallie,
> the author of the HNAI article, doesn't give a retranscription of the
> name.

I have a citation in my comments on the names recommending Hodge 1907-10:
I, 819, which is The Handbook of American Indians North of Mexico.

I think this is intended to render MdonthuN = Mdo't(e) + thuNwaN.  The
word mdo'te appears in Riggs glossed 'the mouth or junction of one river
with another (a name commonly applied to the country about Fort Snelling,
or the mouth of the Saint Peters; also the name appropriated to the
establisment of the Fur Company at the junction of the river, written
Mendota); the outlet of a lake.  T. iyoh.loke."  I can't find the expected
Teton cognate *blote in Buechel, but iyoxloke, cited by Riggs, does
appear.  Williamson has under 'mouth', 'the mouth of the river, iyoxdoke,
mdote', so it looks like Santee also has iyoxdoke cf. iyoxloke.

If you consider Mendota in contracted form as Mendon, you can easily see
the basis for Mantanton.  Pursuing the obvious question, I don't see that
this helps us understand the term Mandan, which is rather different in
form in the original, cf., OP mawadaN.  The similarity of Mendon ~ Mantan
and Mandan is mainly in English.

It's morphologically interesting that mdo'te is initially stressed,
though this is consistent with the contracted form mdon.  Usually C-final
roots that end in e are finally stressed (on the -e), if bisyllabic.  They
do commonly refer to body parts or other inalienable possessions.  In this
case we have a part of a river network.

Historically, this term is also interesting.  As we know from the *pr or
*wr correspondences, we should be looking for OP *nude, Os *toce, Wi
*dooc^ as correspondences.  And we do find these terms, with the meanings
'throat'.  But these are compared to Te lote' 'throat'.  These terms
appear perhaps to mean throat in the sense of the windpipe in at least
some cases.  This is an entirely appropriate gloss for 'mouth of a
stream', cf.  English gullet, French goulet 'narrow entrance to a port'.
So maybe here we actually have a Dakota doublet with *wr ~ *R?  (Bob
Rankin, take note!)  Do we have any others, I wonder?


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Sun Feb 10 16:23:57 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 10:23:57 -0600
Subject: MANDAN redux (was Re: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre)
Message-ID: <SUN.10.FEB.2002.102357.0600.>

Koontz John E wrote:

> If you consider Mendota in contracted form as Mendon, you can easily see
> the basis for Mantanton.  Pursuing the obvious question, I don't see that
> this helps us understand the term Mandan, which is rather different in
> form in the original, cf., OP mawadaN.  The similarity of Mendon ~ Mantan
> and Mandan is mainly in English.

I still question whether Siouan forms in mawa- are really the direct
source of de la Vérendrye's Mantanne, which he explicitly labels
Assiniboine and which is undoubtedly the source of Eng. Mandan. I think
he would have written the name as Maoua- (or something similar) had the
native etymon been mawa-. (And remember Mandan maNta 'Missouri River':
is it reasonable to imagine the Assiniboines arriving at the Missouri,
inquiring of the resident Mandans the name of the river, adding to it
their locative suffix -n and using it to refer to the Mandans, 'those at
the Missouri'?)

Granted Mendon ~ Mantan may well be of different origin, but the
earliest Fr. examples we have of them (Mantan- and Mantanne) are nearly
identical.

Alan


From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Feb 10 16:33:25 2002
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 10:33:25 -0600
Subject: MANDAN redux (was Re: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre)
Message-ID: <SUN.10.FEB.2002.103325.0600.>

Re: Dakotan iyoxloke.  I take it this is realted to Kaw xloge 'empty,
hollow' and the root related to xloje 'shed, as the skin of a locust or bark
of a tree'  If it's related to 'throat' the implication is that xlo- is
bimorphemic, something that is entirely possible, although I can't think of
any other examples of [fricative]+lV- that are, at least off the top of my
head.  Probably all the [fric]lV sequences should be explored by someone at
some point.  Many are phonesthemes, but I don't suppose that prevents some
of them being historically bimorphemic.

Bob


-----Original Message-----
From: Koontz John E
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Sent: 2/10/02 12:55 AM
Subject: Re: MANDAN redux (was Re: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre)

On Sat, 9 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> Item no. 9. on the list of eastern Sioux village names of Le Sueur
> (1699-1702) is Mantanton. The -ton is Sioux -thuN 'village', and the
> balance appears identical to MANDAN. Le Sueur apparently glosses the
> name (or describes the group) twice, as 'N[ation] de la Grosse Roche'
> and as 'village d'un grand lac qui se decharge dans un petit'.
DeMallie,
> the author of the HNAI article, doesn't give a retranscription of the
> name.

I have a citation in my comments on the names recommending Hodge
1907-10:
I, 819, which is The Handbook of American Indians North of Mexico.

I think this is intended to render MdonthuN = Mdo't(e) + thuNwaN.  The
word mdo'te appears in Riggs glossed 'the mouth or junction of one river
with another (a name commonly applied to the country about Fort
Snelling,
or the mouth of the Saint Peters; also the name appropriated to the
establisment of the Fur Company at the junction of the river, written
Mendota); the outlet of a lake.  T. iyoh.loke."  I can't find the
expected
Teton cognate *blote in Buechel, but iyoxloke, cited by Riggs, does
appear.  Williamson has under 'mouth', 'the mouth of the river,
iyoxdoke,
mdote', so it looks like Santee also has iyoxdoke cf. iyoxloke.

If you consider Mendota in contracted form as Mendon, you can easily see
the basis for Mantanton.  Pursuing the obvious question, I don't see
that
this helps us understand the term Mandan, which is rather different in
form in the original, cf., OP mawadaN.  The similarity of Mendon ~
Mantan
and Mandan is mainly in English.

It's morphologically interesting that mdo'te is initially stressed,
though this is consistent with the contracted form mdon.  Usually
C-final
roots that end in e are finally stressed (on the -e), if bisyllabic.
They
do commonly refer to body parts or other inalienable possessions.  In
this
case we have a part of a river network.

Historically, this term is also interesting.  As we know from the *pr or
*wr correspondences, we should be looking for OP *nude, Os *toce, Wi
*dooc^ as correspondences.  And we do find these terms, with the
meanings
'throat'.  But these are compared to Te lote' 'throat'.  These terms
appear perhaps to mean throat in the sense of the windpipe in at least
some cases.  This is an entirely appropriate gloss for 'mouth of a
stream', cf.  English gullet, French goulet 'narrow entrance to a port'.
So maybe here we actually have a Dakota doublet with *wr ~ *R?  (Bob
Rankin, take note!)  Do we have any others, I wonder?


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Sun Feb 10 17:40:52 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:40:52 -0600
Subject: Ponca
Message-ID: <SUN.10.FEB.2002.114052.0600.>

Lewis & Clark frequently (but by no means always) write the name with
[r] which I've usually taken to be a spelling indication of the length
of the preceding [a]. But there are several cases in which it seems more
than that, e.g., Ponceras, Poncaries.

Does this ring a bell with anyone?

Alan


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Feb 10 18:31:01 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:31:01 -0700
Subject: Ponca
In-Reply-To: <3C66B0A4.EC09DA7E@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.10.FEB.2002.113101.0700.>

On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> Lewis & Clark frequently (but by no means always) write the name with
> [r] which I've usually taken to be a spelling indication of the length
> of the preceding [a]. But there are several cases in which it seems more
> than that, e.g., Ponceras, Poncaries.
>
> Does this ring a bell with anyone?

The Winnebago article (perhaps not a "definite" article per se) is -ra,
cf.  Hooc^aN'k ~ Hooc^aNgara 'Winnebago'.  And, maybe more to the point,
Ioway-Otoe has are 'that, those'.  I'm not able to offer a clear
explanation of the conditions under which these [articles would be
present, though I can at least say that they are absent from the first
element in compounds.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Feb 10 18:42:54 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:42:54 -0700
Subject: MANDAN redux (was Re: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre)
In-Reply-To: <3C669E9D.5A74AD7@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.10.FEB.2002.114254.0700.>

On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> I still question whether Siouan forms in mawa- are really the direct
> source of de la V�rendrye's Mantanne, which he explicitly labels
> Assiniboine and which is undoubtedly the source of Eng. Mandan. I think
> he would have written the name as Maoua- (or something similar) had the
> native etymon been mawa-. (And remember Mandan maNta 'Missouri River':

Well, Teton for Mandan is MiwataNni, but I shouldn't comment further,
until I get the Plains volumes of the Handbook and review what we said on
the list last time.  I don't know what the Assiniboine term for Mandan is
apart from Verendrye's testimony.  French transcriptions are usually
fairly good, but sometimes they fall shy of the mark.

> is it reasonable to imagine the Assiniboines arriving at the Missouri,
> inquiring of the resident Mandans the name of the river, adding to it
> their locative suffix -n and using it to refer to the Mandans, 'those
> at the Missouri'?)

I don't see why not, even without a visit, but I wonder where the
widespread -wi/a- element comes form.  I'm certainly getting a fair second
hand knowledge of Afgan geography.

> Granted Mendon ~ Mantan may well be of different origin, but the
> earliest Fr. examples we have of them (Mantan- and Mantanne) are nearly
> identical.

However, I think we can see that Mantan(ton) is probably the result of
fairly bad transcription (perhaps combined with trouble in the process of
transmitting the written forms).

A possibility we might want to explore is that the name Mandan - without
-wa/i- is somehow connected to MdonthuN.  Is there any reason why the
Mandans might have been know as 'outlet (or straights) people'?  We'd have
to assume that the name has been transmitted to the the Assiniboine via a
non-Dakota route.

JEK


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Sun Feb 10 19:50:45 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 13:50:45 -0600
Subject: MANDAN redux (was Re: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre)
Message-ID: <SUN.10.FEB.2002.135045.0600.>

Koontz John E wrote:

> Well, Teton for Mandan is MiwataNni, but I shouldn't comment further,
> until I get the Plains volumes of the Handbook and review what we said on
> the list last time.  I don't know what the Assiniboine term for Mandan is
> apart from Verendrye's testimony.  French transcriptions are usually
> fairly good, but sometimes they fall shy of the mark.

HNAI 13.363 has Assiniboine mayátana, mayátani. I don't think Mantanne
is a likely transcription of either of those. And I imagine that had de
la Vérendrye's version been too far off the mark, it wouldn't have
survived alone so long without more accurate versions having appeared in
the written record. Fr.-Can. traders had a great deal of first-hand
experience of the Assiniboine language.

Is A. -y- in such an environment a regular reflex of other Siouan -w- ?
HNAI 17.444 says that Lakhota intervocalic -y- and -w- are pronounced
weakly, if at all. That gets us to mátana, but we still have the first
-n- in Mandan to account for.

As far as Teton forms go, there are the Fr.-Eng. vars. in -l (ca. 1800),
e.g., Mandal, again without -w- or -y-, which I assume show Teton
influence.

The Mandans were centered at the confluence of the Heart River and the
Missouri which would accord pretty well with Le Sueur's gloss of
Mantanton 'village d'un grand lac qui se decharge dans un petit'. And
Hayden (1862 p.426) has "The Mandans, or Mi-ah'ta-nes [h dot above, e
with macron] 'people on the bank' (of the river), as they call
themselves": note the similarity to A. mayátana.

Alan


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Sun Feb 10 20:26:07 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 14:26:07 -0600
Subject: Ponca
Message-ID: <SUN.10.FEB.2002.142607.0600.>

Koontz John E wrote:

> The Winnebago article (perhaps not a "definite" article per se) is -ra,
> cf.  Hooc^aN'k ~ Hooc^aNgara 'Winnebago'.  And, maybe more to the point,
> Ioway-Otoe has are 'that, those'.  I'm not able to offer a clear
> explanation of the conditions under which these [articles would be
> present, though I can at least say that they are absent from the first
> element in compounds.

Thanks: I'd forgotten that I hadn't figured out the -ra in
Hochunk~Hochungra! (Does ['] indicate stress?) All the examples I have
from the 18th and 19th centuries have -ra: the plain Hochunk type
doesn't show up till the 20th.

Does -ra exist in the Dhegiha languages? Of course, people coming
upriver might well have learned a Chiwere name for the Ponca.

Alan


From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Feb 10 22:44:09 2002
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 16:44:09 -0600
Subject: Ponca
Message-ID: <SUN.10.FEB.2002.164409.0600.>

Ordinarily, when I see <ar> in older orthographic rendering of Indian names,
I just assume it represents [a], as in "Arkansas" or "Harjo", Creek for
'brave'.  This is almost always true in the South, where post-vocalic R
didn't have a phonetic value, but it was true of various other R-less
English dialects too (Boston, NYC, etc.). It's true that sometimes it might
be a diacritic for length, but I don't think it has to be.

On the other hand, there were people who said "sofer" for sofa and Cuber for
"Cuba", which, I suppose was a hypercorrection, although it may have been a
geographic dialect pronunciation of word-final schwa.  Presumably they'd
have said "Dakoter" too.

As for "Ponca", there is really no regularly-occurring suffix or enclitic
with a /dh/, the nearest thing to [r] in Ponca, that would explain the
spellings.

Bob


-----Original Message-----
From: Alan H. Hartley
To: Siouan
Sent: 2/10/02 11:40 AM
Subject: Ponca

Lewis & Clark frequently (but by no means always) write the name with
[r] which I've usually taken to be a spelling indication of the length
of the preceding [a]. But there are several cases in which it seems more
than that, e.g., Ponceras, Poncaries.

Does this ring a bell with anyone?

Alan


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Feb 11 03:28:44 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 20:28:44 -0700
Subject: Ponca
In-Reply-To: <3C66D75F.E56641CB@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.10.FEB.2002.202844.0700.>

On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> Thanks: I'd forgotten that I hadn't figured out the -ra in
> Hochunk~Hochungra! (Does ['] indicate stress?) All the examples I have
> from the 18th and 19th centuries have -ra: the plain Hochunk type
> doesn't show up till the 20th.

The ' represents stress (an acute over the preceding vowel).  I believe
that the ra-less version was more common in English sources in the past.

> Does -ra exist in the Dhegiha languages? Of course, people coming
> upriver might well have learned a Chiwere name for the Ponca.

No, the -ra - as Bob points out, it would be -dha in OP (and in Osage, -ya
in Kaw, and -da in Quapaw) - doesn't occur in Dhegiha.  Instead you have
the whole panoply of positional articles.  In Dakotan you get ki(n) and
k?uN.  It's possible that the -ya suffix that some Dakotan nouns take in
free form, vs. nothing in bound form, is related.

So, for -ra or -(a)re to be added to Ponca, the name would have to be from
a Winnebago or Chiwere source.  I'd assume the latter, meaning you'd have
to assume /are/.  Problem:  while I know that -ra is fairly easily added
to nouns in Winnebago, I'm not actually sure if are has anything like the
same distribution (I think not) with nouns in Ioway-Otoe, though I have
seen it glossed as 'the', and this would be the only example I know of in
which it is attached to an ethnonym.  On the other hand, it's perfectly
reasonable that the name for the Ponca might be learned from an Ioway-Otoe
source, given the political topography of the Missouri River people in the
late 1700s-mid 1800s.  Perhaps somebody with more knowledge of Ioway-Otoe
syntax can comment.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Feb 11 04:10:15 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 21:10:15 -0700
Subject: MANDAN redux (was Re: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre)
In-Reply-To: <3C66CF15.360F1195@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.10.FEB.2002.211015.0700.>

On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> HNAI 13.363 has Assiniboine may�tana, may�tani. I don't think Mantanne
> is a likely transcription of either of those.  ...

> Is A. -y- in such an environment a regular reflex of other Siouan -w- ?

No, y is a bit of a surprise here.  It would reflect *r, while w is *w.

> HNAI 17.444 says that Lakhota intervocalic -y- and -w- are pronounced
> weakly, if at all. That gets us to m�tana, but we still have the first
> -n- in Mandan to account for.

I don't think it's impossible for aya to appear as a: - long a - in fast,
i.e., not careful, speech.  In fact, that's what is meant by -y- being
pronounced weakly in intervocalic position.  To get to /man/, note that
the resulting a: is nasal - it's after m - and that ma:N would be
naturally transcribed man before t, even by a Francophone.  Actually,
especially by a Francophone.

I expect that the surprising y for w substitution is to be accounted for
by the tendency of awa and aya to reduce to a: (aa).  Presented with a
reduced form, a speaker not familiar with the underlying form might
reconstitute the wrong underlying form.

> As far as Teton forms go, there are the Fr.-Eng. vars. in -l (ca. 1800),
> e.g., Mandal, again without -w- or -y-, which I assume show Teton
> influence.

It could also reflect Cree or Ojibway influence, since all three dialect
continuums have considerable dialect variation in "r" forms (y, r, l, n,
d, etc.).

> The Mandans were centered at the confluence of the Heart River and the
> Missouri which would accord pretty well with Le Sueur's gloss of
> Mantanton 'village d'un grand lac qui se decharge dans un petit'. And
> Hayden (1862 p.426) has "The Mandans, or Mi-ah'ta-nes [h dot above, e
> with macron] 'people on the bank' (of the river), as they call
> themselves": note the similarity to A. may�tana.

If it's a question of a lake discharging into another, I'd lay odds on
Minnesota.  And, while I'm not familiar with the junction of the Heart and
the Missouri, I'd expect that to be a small(er) discharging into a
large(r).  I'm also bothered by finding one somewhat distant western group
with several villages (not to mention the Hidatsa villages) included as a
unit in a list of villages otherwise somewhat localized in Minnesota.  It
seems something of a non sequitur.

This reminds me somewhat of the two "Santees," one the Dakotan Santees and
the other the southeastern group - Catawban, I assume.

JEK


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Mon Feb 11 13:03:49 2002
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 08:03:49 -0500
Subject: Ponca
In-Reply-To: <F73B91BED37FD5119F970008C7CF50FC084996DC@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.080349.0500.>

We recently saw a case in Illinois where -r- was written for /-h-/. Not
that this is relevant; just something more to remember.

Michael McCafferty

On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote:

>
> Ordinarily, when I see <ar> in older orthographic rendering of Indian names,
> I just assume it represents [a], as in "Arkansas" or "Harjo", Creek for
> 'brave'.  This is almost always true in the South, where post-vocalic R
> didn't have a phonetic value, but it was true of various other R-less
> English dialects too (Boston, NYC, etc.). It's true that sometimes it might
> be a diacritic for length, but I don't think it has to be.
>
> On the other hand, there were people who said "sofer" for sofa and Cuber for
> "Cuba", which, I suppose was a hypercorrection, although it may have been a
> geographic dialect pronunciation of word-final schwa.  Presumably they'd
> have said "Dakoter" too.
>
> As for "Ponca", there is really no regularly-occurring suffix or enclitic
> with a /dh/, the nearest thing to [r] in Ponca, that would explain the
> spellings.
>
> Bob
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan H. Hartley
> To: Siouan
> Sent: 2/10/02 11:40 AM
> Subject: Ponca
>
> Lewis & Clark frequently (but by no means always) write the name with
> [r] which I've usually taken to be a spelling indication of the length
> of the preceding [a]. But there are several cases in which it seems more
> than that, e.g., Ponceras, Poncaries.
>
> Does this ring a bell with anyone?
>
> Alan
>
>
>


Michael McCafferty
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

"Talking is often a torment for me, and I
need many days of silence to recover from the futility of words.
                                                       C.G. Jung

"...as a dog howls at the moon, I talk."
                                    Rumi


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Mon Feb 11 17:58:12 2002
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:58:12 -0000
Subject: Bruce Ingham's "Nominal and Verbal Status ..." (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.40.0201251512410.14908-100000@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.175812.0000.>

I'm glad people have found this interesting.  I haven't received my
copy of IJAL yet and am looking forward to seeing it.  One problem
that I found in working on the matter was that , waht we are often
told about the ablaut freezing when it becomes a noun doesn't
always seem to work.  As Connie mentions  wauNspekhiye he-ni-
chapi is "you are teachers". (-e ending in Buechel), has the -e
ending, where we might expect the -a ending.  One thing that I did
not mention in the article which I think is very important is that one
can use uN or hecha after these 'plain stems' which I think give
different meanings though difficult to translate:  wauNspekhiya
hemacha would I suppose mean 'I am a teacher, I am someone
who teaches as a permanent characteristic' while  wauNspekhiya
wauN would mean something like 'I am/was engaged in teaching'
(at a particular time).  The -ka ending in waoka 'marksman' etc I
have taken to be a nominalizer, since I don't think waoka could
occur with wa- or ma- ie wawaoka or wamaoka 'I am a marksman'.
I presume only waoka hemacha. Can anyone comment or give
other  examples.

Bruce

On 25 Jan 2002, at 15:13, Koontz John E wrote:

> Maybe a bit long ... :-).
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 00:19:41 +0300
> From: Constantine Chmielnicki <mosind at yahoo.com>
> To: John E Koontz <John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU>
> Subject: RE: Bruce Ingham's "Nominal and Verbal Status ..."
>
> If you find this fit for the Siouan list, forward it there.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>


Dr. Bruce Ingham
Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies
SOAS


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Mon Feb 11 18:04:51 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:04:51 -0600
Subject: MANDAN redux (was Re: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre)
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.120451.0600.>

Koontz John E wrote (ref. Mandal):

> It could also reflect Cree or Ojibway influence, since all three dialect
> continuums have considerable dialect variation in "r" forms (y, r, l, n,
> d, etc.).

Nope: no Cree or Ojibway l-dialects in that area/period.

Thanks for the insight into -aya- / -awa-.

Alan


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Mon Feb 11 18:17:39 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:17:39 -0600
Subject: Ponca
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.121739.0600.>

Rankin, Robert L wrote:

> Ordinarily, when I see <ar> in older orthographic rendering of Indian names,
> I just assume it represents [a], as in "Arkansas" or "Harjo", Creek for
> 'brave'.  This is almost always true in the South, where post-vocalic R
> didn't have a phonetic value, but it was true of various other R-less
> English dialects too (Boston, NYC, etc.). It's true that sometimes it might
> be a diacritic for length, but I don't think it has to be.

You're right: I imagine the -r was simply to insure a pron. as [a]
instead of [eI].

> As for "Ponca", there is really no regularly-occurring suffix or enclitic
> with a /dh/, the nearest thing to [r] in Ponca, that would explain the
> spellings.

It seems we're left with Chiwere as a source, assuming the L & C
spellings do represent a real [r].

Alan


From parksd at indiana.edu  Mon Feb 11 18:37:02 2002
From: parksd at indiana.edu (Parks, Douglas R.)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:37:02 -0500
Subject: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.133702.0500.>

John,

Before trying to identify the names below (and other Sioux band names), you
might take a look at Ray's article "The Sioux to 1850" in vol. 13 of the
Handbook of NA Indians.  These are identified there.

Doug

-----Original Message-----
From: Koontz John E
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Sent: 2/8/2002 12:16 AM
Subject: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre

I ran across a potato in:

Wedel, Mildred Mott.  1974.  LeSueur and the Dakota Sioux.  pp.
157-172,
Aspects of Upper Great Lakes Anthropology:  Papers in Honor of Lloyd A.
Wilford.  Ed. by Elden Johnson.  With a combined list of references. St.
Paul:  Minnesota Historical Society.

This article includes a list of early village (hence band) names, one of
which is Menostamenaton, glossed as Nation de la pomme de terre.  I
assume
Meno is mno and ton is thuN[waN] 'village, band'.  I can't figure out
stamena, though -na might be the diminutive.

Warning - these names are not always glossed correctly, and the spelling
may be mangled at either the hearing stage or some later transcriptional
stage, e.g., Yanktons comes out Hinhanetonsouanons, where one might
expect
Hi(n)hanctonouanons, for IhaNkthuNwaN=na 'little end-villagers'.  The
extra -s- may be a result of analyzing the form as Hinhanetons ouanons,
with a modifier (agreeing in number in French).

This latter was actually glossed 'village de la pierre separee des
autres', which I make 'stone village separated from the others'.  I
think
this refers to the gloss 'Stone Sioux' for Ojibwa Assiniboine (assini-
is
'stone' and boine is 'Sioux'), cf. Engish Stoney.

In this context, the 'separated from the others' is an early reference
(c.
1683) to the notion that the Yanktonais are a group of
Assiniboine/Stoney
Sioux who have separated from the rest and joined the Seven Council
Fires
grouping instead.

This is a kind of fun list, if anyone is interested in old band names,
which are often nice early sources of vocabulary, e.g., the very first
name in the list is Tangapsinton 'village de la Crosse', Perhaps
representing tham-kapsin-thuN[waN] or something like 'ball-playing
village', from thapa 'ball' + kapsic^a 'to make jump with a blow, as in
shinney' (or kapsiNta 'to whip'?) + thuN[waN] 'village, band'.  Williams
gives t[h]akapsic^api as 'lacrosse'.  Riggs has t[h]akapsic^a 'to play
ball by taking up the ball in the club and throwing it' and
t[h]akic^apsic^a 'a ball club'.  Perhaps kapsic^a 'throw with a stick'
is
a specialized meaning of 'make jump with a blow'.  It looks like the
t[h]a- in Santee is a reduction of thapa, corresponding in comparable
words to Teton thab-.  In this context, the -n- in Tan-gapsintons
becomes
interesting.  Rather than nasalization, it's probably a reflection of -m
in tham-, a Santee vesion of thab-.

A better known example of a disappearing -n is Teton, if it's based on
thiNta 'prairie'.  In that case ThithuNwaN has to be reduced from
thiNl-thuNwaN, pronounced [thiNn=thuNwaN].

Another of LeSueur's village names that I just figured out, because it
*is* glossed correctly, is Ouidaougecunaton 'nation de l'Isle pleine' or
'People of the full island'.  Ouida is clearly wita 'island', but
ougecuna
is somewhat obscure:  uz^kuna?  However, since oz^ula is Teton for
'full',
I suspect this is a misreading of ouge-ou-na.  So it really is
'full-island people'.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Feb 11 18:38:46 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:38:46 -0700
Subject: MANDAN redux (was Re: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre)
In-Reply-To: <3C6807C3.547CFAC9@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.113846.0700.>

On Mon, 11 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> Thanks for the insight into -aya- / -awa-.

If any Dakotanists disagree, they win, of course.  :-)  I'd heard
something of this in the past, and I've hard some examples of y-loss
between vowels in Teton texts that have been played for me, so I was
interested when I saw in your quotation that the Handbook specifically
pointed this out.  I suppose they (Goddard, Parks, DeMallie and
consultants?) were trying to connect the form with "Mandan" specifically.
I think I may have said something about the possibility of awa > aa,
perhaps not very clearly in our earlier discussion of this.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Feb 11 18:48:50 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:48:50 -0700
Subject: Nebraska (Re: Ponca)
In-Reply-To: <3C680AC3.39A15D9E@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.114850.0700.>

On Mon, 11 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> You're right: I imagine the -r was simply to insure a pron. as [a]
> instead of [eI].

This is one reason I think Nebraska may be an attempt to render IO n(~)iN
braske as ne-bras-ka, rather than OP niN bdhaska, which would have been
ne-blas-kar or maybe ne-bthas-kar.  Unfortunately the vaguaries of
recording r-like sounds and /a/ in English orthography make it difficult
to be sure.  The use of ne for n~iN or niN does suggest that an English
rendition of whichever form it was is in question.  Of course, the modern
pronunciation of the state name is a spelling-b ased pronunciation that
uses lax-e or an unstressed reduction to barred-i.


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Mon Feb 11 19:03:36 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:03:36 -0600
Subject: MANDAN redux (was Re: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre)
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.130336.0600.>

Koontz John E wrote:

> On Mon, 11 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> > Thanks for the insight into -aya- / -awa-.
>
> If any Dakotanists disagree, they win, of course.  :-)  I'd heard
> something of this in the past, and I've hard some examples of y-loss
> between vowels in Teton texts that have been played for me, so I was
> interested when I saw in your quotation that the Handbook specifically
> pointed this out.  I suppose they (Goddard, Parks, DeMallie and
> consultants?) were trying to connect the form with "Mandan" specifically.
> I think I may have said something about the possibility of awa > aa,
> perhaps not very clearly in our earlier discussion of this.

The Teton quot. was from Rood & Taylor's Sketch in vol. 17 (not 13) of
HNAI, and it had nothing directly to do with MANDAN.

Alan


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Feb 11 19:01:42 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:01:42 -0700
Subject: Bruce Ingham's "Nominal and Verbal Status ..." (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3C680634.28023.8B6682@localhost>
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.120142.0700.>

On Mon, 11 Feb 2002 bi1 at soas.ac.uk wrote:
> ... One thing that I did not mention in the article which I think is
> very important is that one can use uN or hecha after these 'plain
> stems' which I think give different meanings though difficult to
> translate:  wauNspekhiya hemacha would I suppose mean 'I am a teacher,
> I am someone who teaches as a permanent characteristic' while
> wauNspekhiya wauN would mean something like 'I am/was engaged in
> teaching' (at a particular time).

This sounds a bit like the Spanish ser vs. estar opposition, though I has
the impression that that is frozen for particular cases.  Is there
something similar in Russian involving cases oppositions?  It's been a
while!

> The -ka ending in waoka 'marksman' etc I have taken to be a
> nominalizer, since I don't think waoka could occur with wa- or ma- ie
> wawaoka or wamaoka 'I am a marksman'.  I presume only waoka hemacha.
> Can anyone comment or give other examples.

I can give diachronic examples of -ka as a nominalizer (and with stative
verbs), e.g., Da c^haNte' 'heart', OP naN'de 'heart' vs. Wi naNaNc^ge'
'heart', if I recall these properly.  I think Mandan also has the *ka in
this ans some other body part nouns.  A number of Winnebago animal terms
have *ka (as -ge/C__ ~ -k/V__).  In stative verbs, cf. Da thaN'ka, OP
ttaN'ga vs. frozen c^aN in compounds in Wi.  I suspect, however, you mean
other specifically Dakotan examples where -ka precludes inflection!

JEK


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Mon Feb 11 19:09:45 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:09:45 -0600
Subject: MANDAN redux (was Re: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre)
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.130945.0600.>

Koontz John E wrote:

> I think I may have said something about the possibility of awa > aa,
> perhaps not very clearly in our earlier discussion of this.

I believe you did. You might be amazed how much was written on MANDAN
last time around. I've assembled (in chronological order) material
abstracted from those emails into a text-file that I'd be happy to send
anyone that's interested.

Alan


From boris at terracom.net  Mon Feb 11 20:33:14 2002
From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:33:14 -0600
Subject: Ponca
In-Reply-To: <F73B91BED37FD5119F970008C7CF50FC084996DC@skylark.mail.ukan s.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.143314.0600.>

Now that we are on the subject of ethnonyms--what is the origin of the term
Minatari?

Thx
Alan K


From boris at terracom.net  Mon Feb 11 20:25:38 2002
From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:25:38 -0600
Subject: Ponca
In-Reply-To: <F73B91BED37FD5119F970008C7CF50FC084996DC@skylark.mail.ukan s.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.142538.0600.>

I always thought that r-loss in English was pre-consonantal and prepausal
and never intervocalic, leading to a contrast between fa:tha (from farther)
and fatha (from father) (excuse orthography, pls), and as I understood that
r-insertion was a hypercorrection (as h-insertion in Cockney) leading to
something as grating as Waursaur (as in the commercial) for Wausau.


At 04:44 PM 2/10/02 -0600, you wrote:
>
>Ordinarily, when I see <ar> in older orthographic rendering of Indian names,
>I just assume it represents [a], as in "Arkansas" or "Harjo", Creek for
>'brave'.  This is almost always true in the South, where post-vocalic R
>didn't have a phonetic value, but it was true of various other R-less
>English dialects too (Boston, NYC, etc.). It's true that sometimes it might
>be a diacritic for length, but I don't think it has to be.
>
>On the other hand, there were people who said "sofer" for sofa and Cuber for
>"Cuba", which, I suppose was a hypercorrection, although it may have been a
>geographic dialect pronunciation of word-final schwa.  Presumably they'd
>have said "Dakoter" too.
>
>As for "Ponca", there is really no regularly-occurring suffix or enclitic
>with a /dh/, the nearest thing to [r] in Ponca, that would explain the
>spellings.
>
>Bob
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Alan H. Hartley
>To: Siouan
>Sent: 2/10/02 11:40 AM
>Subject: Ponca
>
>Lewis & Clark frequently (but by no means always) write the name with
>[r] which I've usually taken to be a spelling indication of the length
>of the preceding [a]. But there are several cases in which it seems more
>than that, e.g., Ponceras, Poncaries.
>
>Does this ring a bell with anyone?
>
>Alan


From boris at terracom.net  Mon Feb 11 20:41:46 2002
From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:41:46 -0600
Subject: Ponca
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020211143139.00a8bd90@mail.terracom.net>
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.144146.0600.>

And just to muddy the waters a little (sorry, :)  ) there is also the
alternate form of the Caddoan Arikara---
Arikari.


Alan K


From rankin at ku.edu  Mon Feb 11 21:11:47 2002
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:11:47 -0600
Subject: Rees
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.151147.0600.>

 These are all issues that relate to American English dialects of the 18th
and 19th centuries, plus several idiosyncracies in naming habits.

In addition to R-loss syllable finally, and rhotacization of schwa
word-finally in some speech, there were also speakers who raised final schwa
to [I] or [i].  The local pronunciations of Missoura/Missoury,
Indiana/Indiany, Tulsa/Tulsy, Arizona/Arizony attest to this.  There were
many more.  It is possible that the Arikara/Arikaree doublet is the frozen
result of this change.  This particular sound change did not become part of
standard American English (whatever that is), but it is discussed in Edgar
Sturtevant's little book "Linguistic Change".  He discusses what he calls
"primary" phonetic change (=neogrammarian Lautgesetz) and "secondary"
phonetic change (=Labovian dialect borrowing) and the dialect phenomena are
among the latter as I recall.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Knutson
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Sent: 2/11/02 2:41 PM
Subject: RE: Ponca

And just to muddy the waters a little (sorry, :)  ) there is also the
alternate form of the Caddoan Arikara---
Arikari.


Alan K


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Mon Feb 11 23:51:46 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:51:46 -0600
Subject: Rees
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.175146.0600.>

Rankin, Robert L wrote:

> In addition to R-loss syllable finally, and rhotacization of schwa
> word-finally in some speech, there were also speakers who raised final schwa
> to [I] or [i].  The local pronunciations of Missoura/Missoury,
> Indiana/Indiany, Tulsa/Tulsy, Arizona/Arizony attest to this.  There were
> many more.  It is possible that the Arikara/Arikaree doublet is the frozen
> result of this change.

There's an abbreviated form (type REE) which is attested first in
French:

1797 J. TRUDEAU _Descr. haut Missouri_ in Mississippi Valley Hist.
Review VIII. (1921) 164
"Les aricaras, appelés par abrigé les ris"

1804 (P. Gass) Jrnls. Lewis & Clark Exped. X. (1996) 51
"we passed a handsome bottom, where a band of Rees lived last winter."

And Wm. Clark has an early example of the full form in [i]:

1804 3 Aug. in Jrnls. Lewis & Clark Exped. II. (1986) 438
"the Panies & Recreries Speak the Same language"

1804 30 Sep. Jrnls. Lewis & Clark Exped. III. (1987) 129
"he..requested to come on bord and go up to the recorees"

Alan


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Tue Feb 12 00:06:06 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:06:06 -0600
Subject: Ponca
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.180606.0600.>

Alan Knutson wrote:
>
> Now that we are on the subject of ethnonyms--what is the origin of the term
> Minatari?

There's more in the archives of this listserv, but here's my stab at it:

Eng. < Mandan /wríNtari/ [miníNtari], or directly from its etymon
Hidatsa /wiríta:ri/ [miníta:ri] 'crosses the water', i.e.,
'river-crossing'. The Eng. forms in w- and m- reflect the use in Hidatsa
of rapid and careful speech respectively.

Alan


From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu  Tue Feb 12 00:52:09 2002
From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:52:09 -0800
Subject: Rees
In-Reply-To: <3C685912.64425764@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.165209.0800.>

For whatever it's worth, when I did a little work with Arikara in 1959 and
1960, people on the Ft. Berthold Reservation always used the name Ree. I
had the impression they didn't even know the name Arikara, or at best it
was a name used by anthropologists. Similarly, they called the Hidatsas
Gros Ventres. Hidatsa was also at best an outsider's term. I don't know
how it is now, but I'm sure Doug Parks does.

Wally Chafe

> There's an abbreviated form (type REE) which is attested first in
> French:
>
> 1797 J. TRUDEAU _Descr. haut Missouri_ in Mississippi Valley Hist.
> Review VIII. (1921) 164
> "Les aricaras, appel�s par abrig� les ris"
>
> 1804 (P. Gass) Jrnls. Lewis & Clark Exped. X. (1996) 51
> "we passed a handsome bottom, where a band of Rees lived last winter."
>
> And Wm. Clark has an early example of the full form in [i]:
>
> 1804 3 Aug. in Jrnls. Lewis & Clark Exped. II. (1986) 438
> "the Panies & Recreries Speak the Same language"
>
> 1804 30 Sep. Jrnls. Lewis & Clark Exped. III. (1987) 129
> "he..requested to come on bord and go up to the recorees"
>
> Alan
>


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Tue Feb 12 03:44:20 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:44:20 -0600
Subject: Matthews on Siouan dialogue
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.214420.0600.>

This passage is probably well known to Siouanists, but it is so
enlightening as to bear repeating:

1877 W. Matthews _Ethnog. & Philol. of the Hidatsa Indians_ 17-18

"To the philologist, it is an interesting fact that this trio of savage
clans, although now living in the same village, and having been
next-door neighbors to each other for more than a hundred years, on
terms of peace and intimacy, and to a great extent intermarried, speak,
nevertheless, totally distinct languages, which show no perceptible
inclination to coalesce. The Mandan and Grosventre (or Minnetaree)
languages are somewhat alike, and probably of a very distant common
origin; but no resemblance has yet been discovered between either of
these and the Arickaree ("Ricara"). Almost every member of each tribe
understands the languages of the other tribes, yet he speaks his own
most fluently; so it is not an uncommon thing to hear a dialogue carried
on in two languages, one person, for instance, questioning in Mandan,
and the other answering back in Grosventre, and vice versa. Many of them
understand the Dakota tongue, and use it as a means of
intercommunication, and all understand the sign-language... it is not
uncommon to find persons among them, some even under twenty years of
age, who can speak fluently four or five different languages."

Alan


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Tue Feb 12 13:58:42 2002
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:58:42 -0000
Subject: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre
In-Reply-To: <4F1C26C2EB4CD211BD2300805F657B5C0AF2C798@newjersey.exchange.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.12.FEB.2002.135842.0000.>

I have also seen Ouiidebatons or Hoebatons,  'Gens de la Riviere'
presumably WatpathuN also Songatskitons or Chongasketons
presumably ChuNkas^kathuN 'dwellers in the stockade'

Bruce
On 11 Feb 2002, at 13:37, Parks, Douglas R. wrote:

> John,
>
> Before trying to identify the names below (and other Sioux band names), you
> might take a look at Ray's article "The Sioux to 1850" in vol. 13 of the
> Handbook of NA Indians.  These are identified there.
>
> Doug
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Koontz John E
> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> Sent: 2/8/2002 12:16 AM
> Subject: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre
>
> I ran across a potato in:
>
> Wedel, Mildred Mott.  1974.  LeSueur and the Dakota Sioux.  pp.
> 157-172,
> Aspects of Upper Great Lakes Anthropology:  Papers in Honor of Lloyd A.
> Wilford.  Ed. by Elden Johnson.  With a combined list of references. St.
> Paul:  Minnesota Historical Society.
>
> This article includes a list of early village (hence band) names, one of
> which is Menostamenaton, glossed as Nation de la pomme de terre.  I
> assume
> Meno is mno and ton is thuN[waN] 'village, band'.  I can't figure out
> stamena, though -na might be the diminutive.
>
> Warning - these names are not always glossed correctly, and the spelling
> may be mangled at either the hearing stage or some later transcriptional
> stage, e.g., Yanktons comes out Hinhanetonsouanons, where one might
> expect
> Hi(n)hanctonouanons, for IhaNkthuNwaN=na 'little end-villagers'.  The
> extra -s- may be a result of analyzing the form as Hinhanetons ouanons,
> with a modifier (agreeing in number in French).
>
> This latter was actually glossed 'village de la pierre separee des
> autres', which I make 'stone village separated from the others'.  I
> think
> this refers to the gloss 'Stone Sioux' for Ojibwa Assiniboine (assini-
> is
> 'stone' and boine is 'Sioux'), cf. Engish Stoney.
>
> In this context, the 'separated from the others' is an early reference
> (c.
> 1683) to the notion that the Yanktonais are a group of
> Assiniboine/Stoney
> Sioux who have separated from the rest and joined the Seven Council
> Fires
> grouping instead.
>
> This is a kind of fun list, if anyone is interested in old band names,
> which are often nice early sources of vocabulary, e.g., the very first
> name in the list is Tangapsinton 'village de la Crosse', Perhaps
> representing tham-kapsin-thuN[waN] or something like 'ball-playing
> village', from thapa 'ball' + kapsic^a 'to make jump with a blow, as in
> shinney' (or kapsiNta 'to whip'?) + thuN[waN] 'village, band'.  Williams
> gives t[h]akapsic^api as 'lacrosse'.  Riggs has t[h]akapsic^a 'to play
> ball by taking up the ball in the club and throwing it' and
> t[h]akic^apsic^a 'a ball club'.  Perhaps kapsic^a 'throw with a stick'
> is
> a specialized meaning of 'make jump with a blow'.  It looks like the
> t[h]a- in Santee is a reduction of thapa, corresponding in comparable
> words to Teton thab-.  In this context, the -n- in Tan-gapsintons
> becomes
> interesting.  Rather than nasalization, it's probably a reflection of -m
> in tham-, a Santee vesion of thab-.
>
> A better known example of a disappearing -n is Teton, if it's based on
> thiNta 'prairie'.  In that case ThithuNwaN has to be reduced from
> thiNl-thuNwaN, pronounced [thiNn=thuNwaN].
>
> Another of LeSueur's village names that I just figured out, because it
> *is* glossed correctly, is Ouidaougecunaton 'nation de l'Isle pleine' or
> 'People of the full island'.  Ouida is clearly wita 'island', but
> ougecuna
> is somewhat obscure:  uz^kuna?  However, since oz^ula is Teton for
> 'full',
> I suspect this is a misreading of ouge-ou-na.  So it really is
> 'full-island people'.
>
> JEK


Dr. Bruce Ingham
Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies
SOAS


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Tue Feb 12 14:04:15 2002
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:04:15 -0000
Subject: Bruce Ingham's "Nominal and Verbal Status ..." (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.40.0202111150260.24868-100000@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.12.FEB.2002.140415.0000.>

Yes I was thinking of Lakota examples, but the comparative
examples are interesting.

Bruce

>
> > The -ka ending in waoka 'marksman' etc I have taken to be a
> > nominalizer, since I don't think waoka could occur with wa- or ma- ie
> > wawaoka or wamaoka 'I am a marksman'.  I presume only waoka hemacha.
> > Can anyone comment or give other examples.
>
> I can give diachronic examples of -ka as a nominalizer (and with stative
> verbs), e.g., Da c^haNte' 'heart', OP naN'de 'heart' vs. Wi naNaNc^ge'
> 'heart', if I recall these properly.  I think Mandan also has the *ka in
> this ans some other body part nouns.  A number of Winnebago animal terms
> have *ka (as -ge/C__ ~ -k/V__).  In stative verbs, cf. Da thaN'ka, OP
> ttaN'ga vs. frozen c^aN in compounds in Wi.  I suspect, however, you mean
> other specifically Dakotan examples where -ka precludes inflection!
>
> JEK
>


Dr. Bruce Ingham
Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies
SOAS


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Tue Feb 12 14:08:37 2002
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:08:37 -0000
Subject: Ponca
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020211080256.5510C-100000@ariel.ucs.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.12.FEB.2002.140837.0000.>

I notice in Lakota variation between -y-, -h- and - - in ithaanuNg,
ithayanuNg and ithahanung 'from both sides' , uNgnaheh^ci and
uNgnayehci 'nearly' and a few others like it.

Bruce
On 11 Feb 2002, at 8:03, Michael Mccafferty wrote:

> We recently saw a case in Illinois where -r- was written for /-h-/. Not
> that this is relevant; just something more to remember.
>
> Michael McCafferty
>
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
>
> >
> > Ordinarily, when I see <ar> in older orthographic rendering of Indian names,
> > I just assume it represents [a], as in "Arkansas" or "Harjo", Creek for
> > 'brave'.  This is almost always true in the South, where post-vocalic R
> > didn't have a phonetic value, but it was true of various other R-less
> > English dialects too (Boston, NYC, etc.). It's true that sometimes it might
> > be a diacritic for length, but I don't think it has to be.
> >
> > On the other hand, there were people who said "sofer" for sofa and Cuber for
> > "Cuba", which, I suppose was a hypercorrection, although it may have been a
> > geographic dialect pronunciation of word-final schwa.  Presumably they'd
> > have said "Dakoter" too.
> >
> > As for "Ponca", there is really no regularly-occurring suffix or enclitic
> > with a /dh/, the nearest thing to [r] in Ponca, that would explain the
> > spellings.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Alan H. Hartley
> > To: Siouan
> > Sent: 2/10/02 11:40 AM
> > Subject: Ponca
> >
> > Lewis & Clark frequently (but by no means always) write the name with
> > [r] which I've usually taken to be a spelling indication of the length
> > of the preceding [a]. But there are several cases in which it seems more
> > than that, e.g., Ponceras, Poncaries.
> >
> > Does this ring a bell with anyone?
> >
> > Alan
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Michael McCafferty
> 307 Memorial Hall
> Indiana University
> Bloomington, Indiana
> 47405
> mmccaffe at indiana.edu
>
> "Talking is often a torment for me, and I
> need many days of silence to recover from the futility of words.
>                                                        C.G. Jung
>
> "...as a dog howls at the moon, I talk."
>                                     Rumi
>
>
>


Dr. Bruce Ingham
Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies
SOAS


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Tue Feb 12 14:13:33 2002
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:13:33 -0000
Subject: Ponca
In-Reply-To: <F73B91BED37FD5119F970008C7CF50FC084996DC@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.12.FEB.2002.141333.0000.>

as an interesting doilaect aside in the area of Bristol (Bristow or
Bristoe in older writings) in Western England there is a
pronunciation which makes final -a into -ol. So India and China are
pronounced Indiol and Chinol.  There is a complicated joke about
three girls called Vera (Veral), Vena (Venal) and something
else, but I can't remember the details.

BruceOn 10 Feb 2002, at 16:44, Rankin, Robert L wrote:

>
> Ordinarily, when I see <ar> in older orthographic rendering of Indian names,
> I just assume it represents [a], as in "Arkansas" or "Harjo", Creek for
> 'brave'.  This is almost always true in the South, where post-vocalic R
> didn't have a phonetic value, but it was true of various other R-less
> English dialects too (Boston, NYC, etc.). It's true that sometimes it might
> be a diacritic for length, but I don't think it has to be.
>
> On the other hand, there were people who said "sofer" for sofa and Cuber for
> "Cuba", which, I suppose was a hypercorrection, although it may have been a
> geographic dialect pronunciation of word-final schwa.  Presumably they'd
> have said "Dakoter" too.
>
> As for "Ponca", there is really no regularly-occurring suffix or enclitic
> with a /dh/, the nearest thing to [r] in Ponca, that would explain the
> spellings.
>
> Bob
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan H. Hartley
> To: Siouan
> Sent: 2/10/02 11:40 AM
> Subject: Ponca
>
> Lewis & Clark frequently (but by no means always) write the name with
> [r] which I've usually taken to be a spelling indication of the length
> of the preceding [a]. But there are several cases in which it seems more
> than that, e.g., Ponceras, Poncaries.
>
> Does this ring a bell with anyone?
>
> Alan


Dr. Bruce Ingham
Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies
SOAS


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Tue Feb 12 14:58:45 2002
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:58:45 -0000
Subject: Siouanists, eat your heart out.
In-Reply-To: <3C5870F9.8B3116E6@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.12.FEB.2002.145845.0000.>

I always thought they were spelt 'should of' and 'might of' etc, but
then I also thought there was a verb 'to misle' with a past tense
'misled'.  I think I believed that well into my 30s.  Sic permutatent
linguae

Bruce

On 30 Jan 2002, at 16:17, Alan H. Hartley wrote:

> > This year's Oscar for Best Embedded Modal goes to an unidentified worker at
> > Disney World in Florida, who, when discussing dissatisfaction with worker
> > pay cuts, said, "It MIGHT'VE WOULD'VE quelled it a little if management had
> > taken a cut too,..."  Even I can't say that.
>
> "might could/would" is good southern, but this must just be Disney!


Dr. Bruce Ingham
Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies
SOAS


From rwd0002 at unt.edu  Tue Feb 12 19:00:12 2002
From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:00:12 -0600
Subject: Poncal
In-Reply-To: <3C69230D.1968.E4D7E3@localhost>
Message-ID: <TUE.12.FEB.2002.130012.0600.>

Quoting bi1 at soas.ac.uk:

> as an interesting doilaect aside in the area of Bristol (Bristow or
> Bristoe in older writings) in Western England there is a
> pronunciation which makes final -a into -ol. So India and China are
> pronounced Indiol and Chinol.  There is a complicated joke about
> three girls called Vera (Veral), Vena (Venal) and something
> else, but I can't remember the details.
>

Hi Bruce and all:

Willem de Reuse here. Peter Trudgill told us the story about the man from
Bristol with three daughters: Eva (Evil), Ida (Idle), and Norma (Normal).  But
there must be more than one version to this. There is a reference to this one
in J. C. Wells' Accents of English (1982:344).

Best,

Willem


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue Feb 12 19:40:33 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:40:33 -0700
Subject: Poncal
In-Reply-To: <3C69230D.1968.E4D7E3@localhost>
Message-ID: <TUE.12.FEB.2002.124033.0700.>

On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 bi1 at soas.ac.uk wrote:
> as an interesting doilaect aside in the area of Bristol (Bristow or
> Bristoe in older writings) in Western England there is a
> pronunciation which makes final -a into -ol. ...

The closest comparable thing I can think of in a Siouan language is the
variable nasalization of some final vowels in Mississippi Valley,
apparently in enclitics, and especially Dakotan.  I'm thinking of Dakotan
=xti : =xtiN, =ki : =kiN, and so on, though there is something similar
going across the family, since, as I recall Winnebago has the nasalized
variant of =xtiN and Omaha-Ponca doesn't, and there seems to be something
similar happening with the =s^(i(N)) that appears in various capacities
(negatives, emphatics, etc.).  I think there are some -a(N)  variables,
too, but I'm not recalling them.  This is one of those details that
comparativists have neglected, without actually sweeping it under the
carpet.

At the other end of the word, OP has variably recorded nasality in initial
i, e.g., i(N)khe(de/=) 'shoulder', i(N)s^ta 'eye', and so on.  I think
these i's might all be organic (as opposed to fosilized Poss3 *i-).  This
and the variable recording of final -a(N) in OP may be matters of hearing,
or, rather, of English influence on the orthographic intepretation of
vowel allophones, but I think there's something more involved with the
enclitics.


From napsha51 at aol.com  Tue Feb 12 21:45:19 2002
From: napsha51 at aol.com (napsha51 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:45:19 EST
Subject: Poncal
Message-ID: <TUE.12.FEB.2002.164519.EST.>

I found willem here, please write to me at
napsha51 at aol.com
violet catches miye,
tanyan ya-un he?


From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Feb 12 22:42:17 2002
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:42:17 -0600
Subject: Rees
Message-ID: <TUE.12.FEB.2002.164217.0600.>

>>From what Wally and Alan wrote, it appears as though Arikara went the same
direction as Missouri > Missoura, rather than a > i.

By the way, I'm getting more and more messages via the Siouan list (from
more than one person) that look like the following.  Maybe it's KU's server.

Bob

>This message uses a character set that is not supported by the Internet
Service.  To view the original message content,  open the attached
message. If the text doesn't display correctly, save the attachment to
disk, and then open it using a viewer that can display the original
character set. <<message.txt>>


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Tue Feb 12 23:02:24 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:02:24 -0600
Subject: Rees
Message-ID: <TUE.12.FEB.2002.170224.0600.>

"Rankin, Robert L" wrote:

> >From what Wally and Alan wrote, it appears as though Arikara went the same
> direction as Missouri > Missoura, rather than a > i.

A quick look through my quot.-file shows no example of type MISSOURA and
5 of the type MISSOURIA. All the rest are of the type MISSOURI.

Alan


From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Feb 12 23:28:36 2002
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:28:36 -0600
Subject: Rees
Message-ID: <TUE.12.FEB.2002.172836.0600.>

 The original, AFAIK, is the "emiss8rit-" name on the map attributed to
Marquette.

bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan H. Hartley
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Sent: 2/12/02 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: Rees

"Rankin, Robert L" wrote:

> >From what Wally and Alan wrote, it appears as though Arikara went the
same
> direction as Missouri > Missoura, rather than a > i.

A quick look through my quot.-file shows no example of type MISSOURA and
5 of the type MISSOURIA. All the rest are of the type MISSOURI.

Alan


From jggoodtracks at juno.com  Wed Feb 13 01:15:49 2002
From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 19:15:49 -0600
Subject: Poncal
Message-ID: <TUE.12.FEB.2002.191549.0600.>

On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:45:19 EST napsha51 at aol.com writes:
> I found willem here, please write to me at
> napsha51 at aol.com
> violet catches miye,
> tanyan ya-un he?


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Feb 13 13:00:08 2002
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:00:08 -0500
Subject: Rees
In-Reply-To: <F73B91BED37FD5119F970008C7CF50FC079F08AF@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.13.FEB.2002.080008.0500.>

actually, that's <8emiss8rit>, an Illinois participle.

Michael


On Tue, 12 Feb 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote:

>  The original, AFAIK, is the "emiss8rit-" name on the map attributed to
> Marquette.
>
> bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan H. Hartley
> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> Sent: 2/12/02 5:02 PM
> Subject: Re: Rees
>
> "Rankin, Robert L" wrote:
>
> > >From what Wally and Alan wrote, it appears as though Arikara went the
> same
> > direction as Missouri > Missoura, rather than a > i.
>
> A quick look through my quot.-file shows no example of type MISSOURA and
> 5 of the type MISSOURIA. All the rest are of the type MISSOURI.
>
> Alan
>
>
>


Michael McCafferty
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

"Talking is often a torment for me, and I
need many days of silence to recover from the futility of words.
                                                       C.G. Jung

"...as a dog howls at the moon, I talk."
                                    Rumi


From pustet at babel.Colorado.EDU  Thu Feb 14 11:11:25 2002
From: pustet at babel.Colorado.EDU (regina pustet)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 04:11:25 -0700
Subject: Bruce Ingham's "Nominal and Verbal Status..."
Message-ID: <THU.14.FEB.2002.041125.0700.>

> > ... One thing that I did not mention in the article which I think is
> > very important is that one can use uN or hecha after these 'plain
> > stems' which I think give different meanings though difficult to
> > translate: wauNspekhiya hemacha would I suppose mean 'I am a teacher,
> > I am someone who teaches as a permanent characteristic' while
> > wauNspekhiya wauN would mean something like 'I am/was engaged in
> > teaching' (at a particular time).
>
>This sounds a bit like the Spanish ser vs. estar opposition,

Exactly. ser vs. estar implies a difference in permanence vs. transience,
but to my knowledge, compatibility with both copulas, in Spanish, is
largely, if not exclusively, limited to (semantic) adjectives only, and is
not observed with nouns. Lakhota wauNspekhiya in the above example is a
(semantic) noun, but I have a couple of nice examples from my fieldwork in
which presence vs. absence of hecha with adjectives implies precisely the
difference in permanence vs. transience John notes for Spanish ser vs.
estar:

hus^te			'(temporarily) lame'
hus^te hecha		'permanently lame'

ies^ni			'speechless, unable to speak for a while'
ies^ni hecha		'permanently mute'

ps^uNps^uN		'stiff, e.g. from cold or while sleeping, but not
			from arthritis'
ps^uNps^uN hecha	'stiff from arthritis'

h^miN			'to look misshapen, e.g. because a shoe does not fit
			and causes a strange way of walking'
h^miN hecha		'permanently misshapen'

Hi Violet, if you're still listening: these are your examples from ages
ago! Toniktuka he?

Regina


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Thu Feb 14 17:00:44 2002
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:00:44 -0000
Subject: Poncal
In-Reply-To: <1013540412.3c69663c3d0bb@eaglemail.unt.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.14.FEB.2002.170044.0000.>

Hi Willem
Yes that's the one.

I didn't realize it had got into print

Bruce

>
> Hi Bruce and all:
>
> Willem de Reuse here. Peter Trudgill told us the story about the man from
> Bristol with three daughters: Eva (Evil), Ida (Idle), and Norma (Normal).  But
> there must be more than one version to this. There is a reference to this one
> in J. C. Wells' Accents of English (1982:344).
>
> Best,
>
> Willem


Dr. Bruce Ingham
Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies
SOAS


From cqcq at compuserve.com  Thu Feb 14 18:06:27 2002
From: cqcq at compuserve.com (carolyn quintero)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:06:27 -0500
Subject: New address
Message-ID: <THU.14.FEB.2002.130627.0500.>

My email is now:
cqcqcq at pgtv.net

Thanks,
Carolyn Quintero


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Fri Feb 15 02:25:11 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:25:11 -0600
Subject: MANDAN redux (was Re: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre)
Message-ID: <THU.14.FEB.2002.202511.0600.>

Koontz John E wrote:
>
> On Sat, 9 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> > Item no. 9. on the list of eastern Sioux village names of Le Sueur
> > (1699-1702) is Mantanton. The -ton is Sioux -thuN 'village', and the
> > balance appears identical to MANDAN. Le Sueur apparently glosses the
> > name (or describes the group) twice, as 'N[ation] de la Grosse Roche'
> > and as 'village d'un grand lac qui se decharge dans un petit'.

> I have a citation in my comments on the names recommending Hodge 1907-10:
> I, 819, which is The Handbook of American Indians North of Mexico.
>
> I think this is intended to render MdonthuN = Mdo't(e) + thuNwaN.  The
> word mdo'te appears in Riggs glossed 'the mouth or junction of one river
> with another (a name commonly applied to the country about Fort Snelling,
> or the mouth of the Saint Peters; also the name appropriated to the
> establisment of the Fur Company at the junction of the river, written
> Mendota); the outlet of a lake.  T. iyoh.loke."  I can't find the expected
> Teton cognate *blote in Buechel, but iyoxloke, cited by Riggs, does
> appear.  Williamson has under 'mouth', 'the mouth of the river, iyoxdoke,
> mdote', so it looks like Santee also has iyoxdoke cf. iyoxloke.

Interesting to note that the Hidatsa name for the Mandan is aráxpakua
'at the confluence; toward the mouth of the creek' (HNAI 13.363).

Alan


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Fri Feb 15 02:36:11 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:36:11 -0600
Subject: MANDAN redux
Message-ID: <THU.14.FEB.2002.203611.0600.>

"Alan H. Hartley" wrote, 9 Sep. 1999:

> De la Vérendrye, in his journal for 1738 (ibid. 297-8) says:
>
> "pour venir avec moy dans l'automne à la Descouverte des mantannes que
> si deuant on apeloit ouachipouanne selon les monsony"
>
> The name may be Cree waciypwa:n, lit. 'mountain Sioux' (where
> pwa:n is the same element as in "Assiniboine").

I stand corrected by HNAI XIII.364 which makes it Ojibway wa:Si-pwa:n
'cave Sioux' [more accurately, perhaps, 'den Sioux' AH], with ref. to
the Mandans' earth-lodges.

Alan


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Feb 20 07:22:03 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 00:22:03 -0700
Subject: Evidentials of Inference
Message-ID: <WED.20.FEB.2002.002203.0700.>

In the current issue of IJAL:

James, Deborah and Clarke, Sandra.  2002.  The encoding of information
source in Algonquian:  evidentials in Cree/Montagnais/Naskapi.  IJAL
67.3:229-263.

p. 247

"It has been noted by a number of writers (e.g., Comrie 1976, Anderson
1986, Willet 1988, and Bybee, Perkins and Pagliuca 1994, and see the
articles in section I of Guentche'va 1996) that evidentials which signal
inference frequently derive historically from morphemes with present
perfect meaning.  Such a development has taken place, for example, in
Latvian, Albanian, Bulgarian, Turkish, Georgian, the Tibetan languages, a
number of Uralic languages, Inuktitut, Tucano, and Chinese Pidgin Russian
(Comrie 1976:110, Willett 1988:79, and Bybee, Perkins, and Pagliuca
1994:95).  It seems most likely that perfects develop into inferentials
via a "resultative" stage (Bybee, Perkins and Pagliuca 1994:96).  With
perfects, there can develop over time an increasing emphasis on the result
of the past action, that is, on the way in which that action is relevant
to the present.  This resulting state exists because of the past action.
In this shift of focus, the perceived resulting state can come to be
viewed as evidence on the basis of which the speaker draws an inference
about what the past action must have been which brought about the
resulting state.  Thus a marker of the perfect changes into an evidential
signaling inference.  This is one of the "universal paths of development"
posited by Bybee, Perkins and Pagliuca (1994:95-97)."

I (JEK) might add to this that any given point in this development the
data are going to represent a range of possibilities along
this progression, or at least some somewhat complex compromise between
successive "pure" cases.  This will be especially true if the data are due
to a variety of speakers of different ages and backgrounds, but I think
even a single speaker might be expected to produce a mixture of more or
less progressive or conservative uses, perhaps with special conditioning,
e.g., resultative use with an inferential reading for verbs of motion, to
make up a plausible sounding situation.

I'd have to add that I'm not positive there is any reason to regard the
Dhegiha inferential (evidentials) as old present perfects, in any
classical Indo-European sense.  But it might make sense to regard then as
old resultatives, e.g., 'it stands that/there is a pile of results which
someone X-ed', which becomes 'it stands that/there is a pile of results
such that someone must have X-ed'.  The positional sense of 'stand/be a
pile of' would be a secondary reading, perhaps, of the from earlier *ra-he
with some other reading.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sat Feb 23 05:46:59 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:46:59 -0700
Subject: PS *Wa:'te 'boat' (Re: additions to Woccon article)
In-Reply-To: <fd.1322acef.298da6c7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.22.FEB.2002.224659.0700.>

On Sat, 2 Feb 2002 BARudes at aol.com wrote:
> 2. Proto-Siouan *'wati 'boat, canoe' (Carter 1980:77) [John K. reports that
> the reconstruction in the Comparative Siouan Dictionary is *Wa:'te (?) 'boat']

Something we might want to keep in mind:

Catherine Callaghan.  More evidence for Yok-Utian:  a reanalysis of the
Dixon and Kroeber sets.  IJAL 67.3:313-345, p. 322, says Miss [Southern
Sierra Miwok] wo:te- 'boat' is a loanword from Spanish bote 'boat'.
However, the So. Sierra Miwok term is isolated, and the Siouan term is
widely distributed (Crow-Hidatsa, Mississippi Valley, Bioloxi-Ofo and
Woccon), albeit somewhat irregular.

I scanned all the sets out of curiosity, and came away with an impression
that if ever a language family looked distinctively non-Siouan, this was
it.  Not only were the forms reconstructed not resemblant, their canons of
form were entirely different.  I only noticed Proto-Miwok *mu:s,
Proto-Costanoan *mu(:)s. Proto-Utian (both the foregoing) *mu:s 'breast,
milk', cf. PS *a:si (Proto-Mississippi Valley *(Wa-)aze), and Proto-Sierra
Miwok *c^uku-, Proto-Wintun *suku 'dog', cf. PS *w[i (?)]s^uNke.  One
wonders about onomatopoeia in 'breast' terms with this form, and Callaghan
suggests that 'dog' terms are so widely borrowed in California as to be
difficult to assess in comparative contexts.

JEK


From enichol4 at attbi.com  Fri Feb  1 05:17:20 2002
From: enichol4 at attbi.com (Eric)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 23:17:20 -0600
Subject: Siouanists, eat your heart out.
Message-ID: <THU.31.JAN.2002.231720.0600.>

I might've not 've responded to this thread if it hadn't come down to a
question of whether or not perfection is distributive over modal
auxileration. To my Upper Great Lakes ear it sort of reminds my of a line
from a song I could (obviously) never finish writing:

"If it'd been real, Master, I'd've said it'd been a dream!"

Or the colorless greens I had for lunch yesterday in lieu of an angry
night's sleep.
--Eric

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu>
To: <BARudes at aol.com>; <"'siouan at lists.colorado.edu '"@hooch.Colorado.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 1:14 PM
Subject: RE: Siouanists, eat your heart out.


>
> >You MIGHT'VE SHOULD'VE talked to some of us up here in the Carolinas.
> We could've explained the usage to you right quick.
>
> I grew up in South Georgia, and "might could", Ken's "usta could" along
with
> "might oughta" are second nature to me in casual English.  But putting
<'ve>
> on BOTH elements is out of the question for me and everyone I know. "Might
> would've" and "might should've" or "might oughta've" would be OK, but not
> with *might've.
>
> Bob
>


From cqcq at compuserve.com  Fri Feb  1 17:42:04 2002
From: cqcq at compuserve.com (Carolyn Quintero)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:42:04 -0500
Subject: Siouanists, eat your heart out.
Message-ID: <FRI.1.FEB.2002.124204.0500.>

What it kinda sorta reminds me of is the quote from a lady who said, If I'd
a knowed I could of rode I would of went but I wouldn't of ate nothing when
I got there.
Carolyn

Message text written by INTERNET:siouan at lists.colorado.edu
>
I might've not 've responded to this thread if it hadn't come down to a
question of whether or not perfection is distributive over modal
auxileration. To my Upper Great Lakes ear it sort of reminds my of a line
from a song I could (obviously) never finish writing:

"If it'd been real, Master, I'd've said it'd been a dream!"

Or the colorless greens I had for lunch yesterday in lieu of an angry
night's sleep.
--Eric
<


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Sat Feb  2 17:27:38 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 11:27:38 -0600
Subject: Water monsters
Message-ID: <SAT.2.FEB.2002.112738.0600.>

"alligator" was used for Mississippi keelboatmen and other frontier
types (Dict. Americanisms s.v.)


From BARudes at aol.com  Sat Feb  2 20:32:07 2002
From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 15:32:07 EST
Subject: additions to Woccon article
Message-ID: <SAT.2.FEB.2002.153207.EST.>

Additions to Appendix 4 of "Resurrecting Coastal Catawban"

1. Proto-Siouan *wi'huN:te (?) 'black bear' (Rankin 1998) [Bob R. reports he
would reconstruct *wi'hu:te ~ *wi'huN:te, and that the word is perhaps a
borrowing]

2. Proto-Siouan *'wati 'boat, canoe' (Carter 1980:77) [John K. reports that
the reconstruction in the Comparative Siouan Dictionary is *Wa:'te (?) 'boat']

3. Proto-Siouan *wi'htoxka 'fox' (Rankin 1998)

4. Proto-Siouan *pha 'head' (Matthews 1958) [Bob R. reports that he would
reconstruct *a'hpa 'head']

5. Lakota mi, mila 'knife' (Carter 1980:77) [John K. reports that the
reconstruction in the Comparative Siouan Dictionary is *waN'hiN 'blade']

6. Proto-Siouan *i'hkuN: 'grandmother' (Rankin, Carter and Jones 1997)

7. Proto-Siouan *wi'htaN 'wildcat' (Rankin 1998)

8. Proto-Siouan *hu 'tree, trunk, stalk' (Carter 1980:77)

9. Proto-Siouan *wi'he(-ka) 'raccoon' (Rankin 1998)

10. Proto-Siouan *'ruti 'red' (Matthews 1958) [John K. reports that the
reconstruction in the Comparative Siouan Dictionary is *as^u'te 'red']

Sources

Carter, Richard T. 1980. The Woccon Language of North Carolina: Its Genetic
Affiliations and Historical Significance. IJAL 46(3):170-182.

Koontz, John E. Email communication, 20 January 2002.

Matthews, G. Hubert. 1958. Handbook of Siouan Languages. PhD dissertation.
Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania.

Oliviero, Giulia R.M. and Robert L. Rankin. Fortcoming. On the Subgrouping of
the Virginia Siouan Languages. In Blair A. Rudes and David Costa (eds.).
Essays in Algonquian and Siouan Linguistics in Memory of Frank T. Siebert,
Jr. Winnipeg: University of Manitoba Press.

Rankin, Robert L. 1998. Siouan-Catawban-Yuchi Genetic Relationship: with a
Note on Caddoan. Siouan-Caddoan Linguistics Conference. Bloomington, Indiana.

Rankin, Robert L. Telephone communication, 31 January 2002.

Rankin, Robert L., Richard T. Carter and A. Wesley Jones. 1997. Proto-Siouan
Phonology and Grammar. Mid-America Linguistics Conference. Columbia:
University of Missouri.


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Sat Feb  2 20:43:35 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 14:43:35 -0600
Subject: additions to Woccon article
Message-ID: <SAT.2.FEB.2002.144335.0600.>

Thanks for the addenda, Blair.

Alan
--
Alan H. Hartley
119 West Kent Road
Duluth MN 55812-1152
U.S.A.
218/724-5095
http://www.d.umn.edu/~ahartley/


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Feb  3 02:49:24 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:49:24 -0700
Subject: additions to Woccon article
In-Reply-To: <fd.1322acef.298da6c7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.2.FEB.2002.194924.0700.>

On Sat, 2 Feb 2002 BARudes at aol.com wrote:

> Additions to Appendix 4 of "Resurrecting Coastal Catawban"
>
> 1. Proto-Siouan *wi'huN:te (?) 'black bear' (Rankin 1998) [Bob R. reports he
> would reconstruct *wi'hu:te ~ *wi'huN:te, and that the word is perhaps a
> borrowing]
>
> 2. Proto-Siouan *'wati 'boat, canoe' (Carter 1980:77) [John K. reports that
> the reconstruction in the Comparative Siouan Dictionary is *Wa:'te (?) 'boat']

Note that *w is not the same as *W, as *r is not *R, but until recently
Siouanists were not always clear on the distinction, and that -i vs. -e
reflects some indecision across time and persons among Siouanists as to
how to reconstrict the same thing.  So in essence, the sources agree and
the differences are in detail.

> 3. Proto-Siouan *wi'htoxka 'fox' (Rankin 1998)
>
> 4. Proto-Siouan *pha 'head' (Matthews 1958) [Bob R. reports that he would
> reconstruct *a'hpa 'head']

Yes, this is ppa in Dhegiha, and tense stops (also written as phonetically
preaspirates in, say, Osage) when they pair with Dakota aspiration and
Chiwere aspiration imply *hC.

> 5. Lakota mi, mila 'knife' (Carter 1980:77) [John K. reports that the
> reconstruction in the Comparative Siouan Dictionary is *waN'hiN 'blade']

In which the mi- would be, perhaps *w(a) + the final *iN, the first part
of the cited reconstruction being probably *waN'h(e) 'flint'.

> 6. Proto-Siouan *i'hkuN: 'grandmother' (Rankin, Carter and Jones 1997)
>
> 7. Proto-Siouan *wi'htaN 'wildcat' (Rankin 1998)
>
> 8. Proto-Siouan *hu 'tree, trunk, stalk' (Carter 1980:77)

Unchanged in modern assessment, if we leave aside the vexed question of
the organic (?) or epenthetic (?) -r- in Mandan before the final particle
(Kennard says article)  -e there (cf. -di in some forms in Biloxi, though
I don't recall if this one has that in Biloxi.

> 9. Proto-Siouan *wi'he(-ka) 'raccoon' (Rankin 1998)
>
> 10. Proto-Siouan *'ruti 'red' (Matthews 1958) [John K. reports that the
> reconstruction in the Comparative Siouan Dictionary is *as^u'te 'red']

The *r is an attempt to deal with the Dakotan for luta, which involves
contamination by (or replacement by) *rut(e) 'ripe, cooked'.


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Sun Feb  3 17:16:21 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:16:21 -0600
Subject: pomme de terre
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.111621.0600.>

1813 R. STUART Oregon Trail (1953) 153

"we fell in with a large field of the root called by the Ottos "Toe" &
by the Canadians "Pomme de Terre," they are but seldom of larger
dimensions than a hens egg, with a rough warty brown skin, are never
more than six inches deep in the earth, and when boiled, resemble very
much in taste the sweet potato"

Is this Apios tuberosa/americana (ground nut), which I confuse with
Psoralea esculenta (Indian turnip, prairie potato, pomme blanche). I
assume it's the same as Dakota bdo/mdo, Lakota blo.

I ask for two reasons, one practical, the other far out:

 1.) to confirm a new meaning for pomme de terre in the OED.

 2.) to add to a continuing discussion on the Chinook Jargon listserv
about the etymology of wapato. The latter first appears as wapto in 1805
in the Lewis & Clark journals, with ref. to the lower Columbia where it
is cited as a native name for the edible aquatic root. The OED etymol.
Cree wapatowa 'white mushroom' doesn't seem very likely, and Howard
Berman (IJAL 1990) has suggested Kalapuyan *-pdo 'wapato; potato'
borrowed into Chinookan with its wa- added. Just fishing here, but the
superficial resemblance bdo~pdo, both referring to edible roots, caught
my eye. And then one can prefix the Ojibway and Cree wap- 'white' and
introduce it into Canadian French and then into Chinook Jargon...

Anyway, simply to learn the referent of pomme de terre would be enough,
and much safer.

Thanks,

Alan


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Sun Feb  3 18:38:15 2002
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:38:15 -0500
Subject: pomme de terre
In-Reply-To: <3C5D7065.79D17E63@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.133815.0500.>

The "pomme de terre" of the historical Illinois Country is Ipomeia
pandurata, the wild sweet potato vine. /mihkohpina/ is Miami-Illinois
('red potato'). Later historians often thought erroneously that the native
term referred to the white waterlily, whose Latin name escapes me at the
moment. N... t...

La Salle has a good ethnographic report on these potatoes. They account
for two or three native-created place names in Indiana.

Michael



On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:

> 1813 R. STUART Oregon Trail (1953) 153
>
> "we fell in with a large field of the root called by the Ottos "Toe" &
> by the Canadians "Pomme de Terre," they are but seldom of larger
> dimensions than a hens egg, with a rough warty brown skin, are never
> more than six inches deep in the earth, and when boiled, resemble very
> much in taste the sweet potato"
>
> Is this Apios tuberosa/americana (ground nut), which I confuse with
> Psoralea esculenta (Indian turnip, prairie potato, pomme blanche). I
> assume it's the same as Dakota bdo/mdo, Lakota blo.
>
> I ask for two reasons, one practical, the other far out:
>
>  1.) to confirm a new meaning for pomme de terre in the OED.
>
>  2.) to add to a continuing discussion on the Chinook Jargon listserv
> about the etymology of wapato. The latter first appears as wapto in 1805
> in the Lewis & Clark journals, with ref. to the lower Columbia where it
> is cited as a native name for the edible aquatic root. The OED etymol.
> Cree wapatowa 'white mushroom' doesn't seem very likely, and Howard
> Berman (IJAL 1990) has suggested Kalapuyan *-pdo 'wapato; potato'
> borrowed into Chinookan with its wa- added. Just fishing here, but the
> superficial resemblance bdo~pdo, both referring to edible roots, caught
> my eye. And then one can prefix the Ojibway and Cree wap- 'white' and
> introduce it into Canadian French and then into Chinook Jargon...
>
> Anyway, simply to learn the referent of pomme de terre would be enough,
> and much safer.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Alan
>
>
>


Michael McCafferty
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

"Talking is often a torment for me, and I
need many days of silence to recover from the futility of words.
                                                       C.G. Jung

"...as a dog howls at the moon, I talk."
                                    Rumi


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Sun Feb  3 18:46:47 2002
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:46:47 -0500
Subject: pomme de terre
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020203133347.5771B-100000@ariel.ucs.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.134647.0500.>

I should add that these potatoes aren't red until you cook them. But they
do grow to a somewhat colossal size in well-drained bottomland: about the
size of your arm and at least that big around. I'll also add that the
Miami-Illinois term below seems to be a reformulation of original
/mahkohpina/ 'bear potato', which also appears in the Jesuit documents and
elsewhere and for which there is a Proto-Algonquian reconstruction in
/ma0kwapenya/ 'bear potato'. Potawatomi historically had both 'bear
potato' and 'red potato' for this plant.

Michael

On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Michael Mccafferty wrote:

> The "pomme de terre" of the historical Illinois Country is Ipomeia
> pandurata, the wild sweet potato vine. /mihkohpina/ is Miami-Illinois
> ('red potato'). Later historians often thought erroneously that the native
> term referred to the white waterlily, whose Latin name escapes me at the
> moment. N... t...
>
> La Salle has a good ethnographic report on these potatoes. They account
> for two or three native-created place names in Indiana.
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
>
> > 1813 R. STUART Oregon Trail (1953) 153
> >
> > "we fell in with a large field of the root called by the Ottos "Toe" &
> > by the Canadians "Pomme de Terre," they are but seldom of larger
> > dimensions than a hens egg, with a rough warty brown skin, are never
> > more than six inches deep in the earth, and when boiled, resemble very
> > much in taste the sweet potato"
> >
> > Is this Apios tuberosa/americana (ground nut), which I confuse with
> > Psoralea esculenta (Indian turnip, prairie potato, pomme blanche). I
> > assume it's the same as Dakota bdo/mdo, Lakota blo.
> >
> > I ask for two reasons, one practical, the other far out:
> >
> >  1.) to confirm a new meaning for pomme de terre in the OED.
> >
> >  2.) to add to a continuing discussion on the Chinook Jargon listserv
> > about the etymology of wapato. The latter first appears as wapto in 1805
> > in the Lewis & Clark journals, with ref. to the lower Columbia where it
> > is cited as a native name for the edible aquatic root. The OED etymol.
> > Cree wapatowa 'white mushroom' doesn't seem very likely, and Howard
> > Berman (IJAL 1990) has suggested Kalapuyan *-pdo 'wapato; potato'
> > borrowed into Chinookan with its wa- added. Just fishing here, but the
> > superficial resemblance bdo~pdo, both referring to edible roots, caught
> > my eye. And then one can prefix the Ojibway and Cree wap- 'white' and
> > introduce it into Canadian French and then into Chinook Jargon...
> >
> > Anyway, simply to learn the referent of pomme de terre would be enough,
> > and much safer.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Alan
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Michael McCafferty
> 307 Memorial Hall
> Indiana University
> Bloomington, Indiana
> 47405
> mmccaffe at indiana.edu
>
> "Talking is often a torment for me, and I
> need many days of silence to recover from the futility of words.
>                                                        C.G. Jung
>
> "...as a dog howls at the moon, I talk."
>                                     Rumi
>
>
>
>


Michael McCafferty
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

"Talking is often a torment for me, and I
need many days of silence to recover from the futility of words.
                                                       C.G. Jung

"...as a dog howls at the moon, I talk."
                                    Rumi


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Feb  3 18:56:23 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:56:23 -0700
Subject: pomme de terre
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020203133347.5771B-100000@ariel.ucs.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.115623.0700.>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Michael Mccafferty wrote:
> ... Later historians often thought erroneously that the native term
> referred to the white waterlily, whose Latin name escapes me at the
> moment. N... t...

Nelumbo lutea?


From boris at terracom.net  Sun Feb  3 19:12:43 2002
From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:12:43 -0600
Subject: pomme de terre
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020203133347.5771B-100000@ariel.ucs.indiana .edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.131243.0600.>

A few words to add, first the correct name of the sweet potato vine is
Ipomoea pandurata, second another plant to consider is the Jerusalem
artichoke, Helianthus tuberosus,


At 01:38 PM 2/3/02 -0500, you wrote:
>The "pomme de terre" of the historical Illinois Country is Ipomeia
>pandurata, the wild sweet potato vine. /mihkohpina/ is Miami-Illinois
>('red potato'). Later historians often thought erroneously that the native
>term referred to the white waterlily, whose Latin name escapes me at the
>moment. N... t...
>
>La Salle has a good ethnographic report on these potatoes. They account
>for two or three native-created place names in Indiana.
>
>Michael
>
>
>
>On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
>
> > 1813 R. STUART Oregon Trail (1953) 153
> >
> > "we fell in with a large field of the root called by the Ottos "Toe" &
> > by the Canadians "Pomme de Terre," they are but seldom of larger
> > dimensions than a hens egg, with a rough warty brown skin, are never
> > more than six inches deep in the earth, and when boiled, resemble very
> > much in taste the sweet potato"
> >
> > Is this Apios tuberosa/americana (ground nut), which I confuse with
> > Psoralea esculenta (Indian turnip, prairie potato, pomme blanche). I
> > assume it's the same as Dakota bdo/mdo, Lakota blo.
> >
> > I ask for two reasons, one practical, the other far out:
> >
> >  1.) to confirm a new meaning for pomme de terre in the OED.
> >
> >  2.) to add to a continuing discussion on the Chinook Jargon listserv
> > about the etymology of wapato. The latter first appears as wapto in 1805
> > in the Lewis & Clark journals, with ref. to the lower Columbia where it
> > is cited as a native name for the edible aquatic root. The OED etymol.
> > Cree wapatowa 'white mushroom' doesn't seem very likely, and Howard
> > Berman (IJAL 1990) has suggested Kalapuyan *-pdo 'wapato; potato'
> > borrowed into Chinookan with its wa- added. Just fishing here, but the
> > superficial resemblance bdo~pdo, both referring to edible roots, caught
> > my eye. And then one can prefix the Ojibway and Cree wap- 'white' and
> > introduce it into Canadian French and then into Chinook Jargon...
> >
> > Anyway, simply to learn the referent of pomme de terre would be enough,
> > and much safer.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Alan
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>Michael McCafferty
>307 Memorial Hall
>Indiana University
>Bloomington, Indiana
>47405
>mmccaffe at indiana.edu
>
>"Talking is often a torment for me, and I
>need many days of silence to recover from the futility of words.
>                                                        C.G. Jung
>
>"...as a dog howls at the moon, I talk."
>                                     Rumi
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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Feb  3 19:25:32 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:25:32 -0700
Subject: pomme de terre
In-Reply-To: <3C5D7065.79D17E63@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.122532.0700.>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> 1813 R. STUART Oregon Trail (1953) 153
>
> "we fell in with a large field of the root called by the Ottos "Toe" &
> by the Canadians "Pomme de Terre," they are but seldom of larger
> dimensions than a hens egg, with a rough warty brown skin, are never
> more than six inches deep in the earth, and when boiled, resemble very
> much in taste the sweet potato"

Teton blo, Santee mdo, Omaha-Ponca nu, Osage to, Ioway-Otoe to, Winnebago
too.  Proto-Mississippi Valley is something like *pro, presumably from
*w(a)-ro, and the *pr cluster becomes *R in Dhegiha, Ioway-otoe, and
Winnebago.

Gilmore gives the Pawnee as its.

> Is this Apios tuberosa/americana (ground nut), which I confuse with
> Psoralea esculenta (Indian turnip, prairie potato, pomme blanche). I
> assume it's the same as Dakota bdo/mdo, Lakota blo.

Melvin Gilmore says, mdo, nu, etc., are Glycine apios.  Hugh Cutler's
foreward to the U of Nebraska edition equates this to modern Apios
americana Medic.

Gilmore says Psoralea esculenta refers to:  Santee t(h)iNpsiNna ~
t(h)ipsiNna, Teton t(h)iNpsila (Buechel also gives thiNpsiNla),
Omaha-Ponca nugdhe, Winnebago tdoke'wihi (= tookewihi) (and Pawnee
patsuroka). This is called the wild turnip or tipsin in some contexts.

Miner gives too=..ke'wehi (P1 toikewehi) as 'to be hungry' and tooke'wehi
t?e'e as 'to starve to death'.  Interestingly, Osage has noNppe=..hi
(stative) 'to be hungry', noNppe=hi ..c?e (active) 'to starve'.  The
Omaha-Ponca terms are essentially the same.

> I ask for two reasons, one practical, the other far out:
>
>  1.) to confirm a new meaning for pomme de terre in the OED.
>
>  2.) to add to a continuing discussion on the Chinook Jargon listserv
> about the etymology of wapato. The latter first appears as wapto in 1805
> in the Lewis & Clark journals, with ref. to the lower Columbia where it
> is cited as a native name for the edible aquatic root. ...

It's certainly a striking resemblance.  The wa- prefix is used with
cultivated foodstuffs in Mississippi Valley Siouan, e.g., OP wathaNzi
'corn (plant)', wathaN 'squash'.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Feb  3 19:41:24 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:41:24 -0700
Subject: Omaha-Ponca 'to say' (RE:  Dhegiha prehistory, cont.)
In-Reply-To: <F73B91BED37FD5119F970008C7CF50FC079F0837@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.124124.0700.>

On Sun, 20 Jan 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> A couple of points responding to John.  First, it is my under-
> standing from Kathy Shea, that Ponca (as opposed to Omaha)
> preserves the /ph/ 1st person forms in verbs like e-he 'say',
> i.e., Ponca has /ephe/ like Kaw-Osage, but unlike Quapaw. If
> that is the case, the isogloss is not diagnostic for subgrouping.

I've been meaning to comment in regard to this that my recollection is
that the ph first person is found in Ponca only with eg(i)=..e 'to say
to', not e=..e 'to say', e.g., egiphe 'I said to him', but ehe 'I said'.
This is actually true of Omaha, too, as far as I know, i.e., it is
generally true in the OP texts collected by Dorsey.  The evidence of Osage
ephe (eps^e), etc., confirms that reduction of ph to h in OP is secondary
in e'=..e.

Confusingly, there is an adverb e'gihe 'headlong, onward without
hesitation'.


From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Feb  3 20:09:16 2002
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 14:09:16 -0600
Subject: pomme de terre
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.140916.0600.>

All of that is very interesting in light of the fact that the word for
'mushroom' in one of the Muskogean languages, Creek I think, is /pato/.
That makes it look like one of those "wanderwoerter" that we sometimes find
all over the hemisphere (as I recall mak 'hand' and wat 'boat' are others).


The Siouan form would come from a */-to/ root with a *wa- or *wi- prefix
that typically undergoes syncope to *wto and thence the various mdo, blo,
do, ato, etc. in the different languages.  It may have been a cover term for
a variety of slightly different tubers including the root of the common
sunflower or "Jerusalem artichoke", so named because it is neither from
Jerusalem nor is it an artichoke.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan H. Hartley
To: Siouan
Sent: 2/3/02 11:16 AM
Subject: pomme de terre

1813 R. STUART Oregon Trail (1953) 153

"we fell in with a large field of the root called by the Ottos "Toe" &
by the Canadians "Pomme de Terre," they are but seldom of larger
dimensions than a hens egg, with a rough warty brown skin, are never
more than six inches deep in the earth, and when boiled, resemble very
much in taste the sweet potato"

Is this Apios tuberosa/americana (ground nut), which I confuse with
Psoralea esculenta (Indian turnip, prairie potato, pomme blanche). I
assume it's the same as Dakota bdo/mdo, Lakota blo.

I ask for two reasons, one practical, the other far out:

 1.) to confirm a new meaning for pomme de terre in the OED.

 2.) to add to a continuing discussion on the Chinook Jargon listserv
about the etymology of wapato. The latter first appears as wapto in 1805
in the Lewis & Clark journals, with ref. to the lower Columbia where it
is cited as a native name for the edible aquatic root. The OED etymol.
Cree wapatowa 'white mushroom' doesn't seem very likely, and Howard
Berman (IJAL 1990) has suggested Kalapuyan *-pdo 'wapato; potato'
borrowed into Chinookan with its wa- added. Just fishing here, but the
superficial resemblance bdo~pdo, both referring to edible roots, caught
my eye. And then one can prefix the Ojibway and Cree wap- 'white' and
introduce it into Canadian French and then into Chinook Jargon...

Anyway, simply to learn the referent of pomme de terre would be enough,
and much safer.

Thanks,

Alan


From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Feb  3 20:28:27 2002
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 14:28:27 -0600
Subject: pomme de terre
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.142827.0600.>

>Teton blo, Santee mdo, Omaha-Ponca nu, Osage to, Ioway-Otoe to,
Winnebago too.  Proto-Mississippi Valley is something like *pro, presumably
from *w(a)-ro, and the *pr cluster becomes *R in Dhegiha, Ioway-otoe, and
Winnebago.

Sorry, senion moment.  John's right about the reconstructed root (pun
intended).  *ro, not *to.  The rest of my post is OK. I think the *pr
cluster is really *wr.  Dakotan [b] is from */w/, not *p.

Bob


From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Feb  3 20:32:08 2002
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 14:32:08 -0600
Subject: Omaha-Ponca 'to say' (RE:  Dhegiha prehistory, cont.)
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.143208.0600.>

>I've been meaning to comment in regard to this that my recollection is
that the ph first person is found in Ponca only with eg(i)=..e 'to say
to', not e=..e 'to say', e.g., egiphe 'I said to him', but ehe 'I said'.

Kathy confirms this in a note she sent me last week.  She has also uncovered
a few instances of /athe/ 'must have' that Mr. Williams was willing to
confirm/produce for her.

>The evidence of Osage ephe (eps^e), etc., confirms that reduction of ph to
h in OP is secondary in e'=..e.

Kaw too.

Bob


From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net  Sun Feb  3 20:51:49 2002
From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:51:49 -0800
Subject: pomme de terre
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.125149.0800.>

This wanderwort might have come from Algonquian. The closest thing there is
to a reconstructible Proto-Algonquian word for 'mushroom' is
*wa:pato:wa~*ato:wa (the 'optional' *wa:p- on the front means 'white'). With
'white' on the front, we have:

Illinois wa:panto:wa 'mushroom'
Ojibwe wa:bado: 'rhubarb, shelf fungus'
Potawatomi wabdo 'mushroom'
Menominee wa:patow 'mushroom'

Without the *wa:p- on the front, it's more irregular, but we at least have:

Shawnee hatowa 'mushroom'
Illinois ato:wa 'blood clot'
Fox ato:wa 'blood-clot'
Menominee wato:w 'ball'
Cree wato:w 'clot, ball made of hide-trimmings'
Montagnais utwi '(son) caillot du sang'
Penobscot ato'wsakwe 'jack o' lantern, false chanterelle' (mushroom species)

I personally have never quite been able to see why there should be a
semantic connection between blood clots and mushrooms. Maybe because both
can be ball-shaped (???) and 'ball' was the original meaning?

Anyway, the Creek form is presumably a loan from some Algonquian form with
the *wa:p- present on the front. Shawnee makes the most geographic sense,
tho no form such as **wa:patowa happens to be documented for Shawnee.

Dave Costa




----------
>From: "Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu>
>To: "'Alan H. Hartley '" <ahartley at d.umn.edu>, "'Siouan '"@hooch.Colorado.EDU
>Subject: RE: pomme de terre
>Date: Sun, Feb 3, 2002, 12:09 pm
>

> All of that is very interesting in light of the fact that the word for
> 'mushroom' in one of the Muskogean languages, Creek I think, is /pato/.
> That makes it look like one of those "wanderwoerter" that we sometimes find
> all over the hemisphere (as I recall mak 'hand' and wat 'boat' are others).
>


From shanwest at uvic.ca  Sun Feb  3 22:19:02 2002
From: shanwest at uvic.ca (Shannon West)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 14:19:02 -0800
Subject: pomme de terre
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.40.0202031156340.27842-100000@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.141902.0800.>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of Koontz John E
> Sent: February 3, 2002 11:26 AM
> To: Siouan
> Subject: Re: pomme de terre
>
>
> On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> > 1813 R. STUART Oregon Trail (1953) 153
> >
> > "we fell in with a large field of the root called by the
> Ottos "Toe" &
> > by the Canadians "Pomme de Terre," they are but seldom of larger
> > dimensions than a hens egg, with a rough warty brown skin, are never
> > more than six inches deep in the earth, and when boiled,
> resemble very
> > much in taste the sweet potato"
>
> Teton blo, Santee mdo, Omaha-Ponca nu, Osage to, Ioway-Otoe
> to, Winnebago
> too.  Proto-Mississippi Valley is something like *pro, presumably from
> *w(a)-ro, and the *pr cluster becomes *R in Dhegiha, Ioway-otoe, and
> Winnebago.

Assiniboine has another form, not the expected 'mno'.  Rather it's paNghi.
gh is voiced velar fricative - is that what we've been using here?  It's
quite uncommon in ASB.  I'm not positive of the nasalization there either.
I have it transcribed both ways, but I can 'hear it in my head', if you know
what I mean. :)

Shannon


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Mon Feb  4 01:36:19 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 19:36:19 -0600
Subject: pomme de terre
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.193619.0600.>

Thanks to Dave for the essay on Algonquian mushrooms and blood-clots,
and to Bob and John for theirs on Siouan pomme de terre. I'm happy to
learn that the referent is (usually?) Apios americana.

So, for wapato look-alikes, we have:

Chinook Jargon	wap(a)to 'wapato' (perh. < Chinookan wa- + Kalapuyan
-pdo)
Ojibway		wa:pado: 'rhubarb; shelf fungus' (< wa:p- 'white' + -ado:w-)
Dakotan		m-do 'ground-nut' (< *wa- + to 'Apios Americana')

They're probably accidental similarities: there's no evidence I know of
to support a chain of transmission Dakota (Algonquian) (> Can. Fr.) >
Chinook Jargon, though there certainly are cases of Ojibway (and Cree?)
words making it into CJ.

Thanks for all the help.

Alan

P.S. Yes, Bob, Creek pato is 'mushroom'.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Feb  4 04:44:37 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 21:44:37 -0700
Subject: pomme de terre
In-Reply-To: <F73B91BED37FD5119F970008C7CF50FC079F087D@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.214437.0700.>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> The Siouan form would come from a */-to/ root with a *wa- or *wi- prefix
> that typically undergoes syncope to *wto and thence the various mdo, blo,
> do, ato, etc. in the different languages.  It may have been a cover term for
> a variety of slightly different tubers including the root of the common
> sunflower or "Jerusalem artichoke", so named because it is neither from
> Jerusalem nor is it an artichoke.

Proto-Mississippi Valley for the Jerusalem artichoke is *hpaN'ghi, cf.
Dakotan phaNghi', OP ppaN'ghe, etc., but my impression is that modern
Omahas are not entirely sure which terms apply to what native tubers.  I
definitely wouldn't be surprised to find terminology varying locally
historically.  In modern OP nu' is 'potato' (apparently homophonous with
nu' 'man') and ppaN'ghe is 'radish'.  Incidentally, I've cooked commercial
Jerusalem artichoke, and my recollection is that it turns pinkish when
cooked.  I believe I read somewhere that lemon juice will inhibit this.
Jerusalem artichoke is not bad - a bit like artichoke heart, I guess.

In further support of Bob's comments, my recollection is that the Catawba
form compared to *pro is wituki.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Feb  4 05:09:15 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 22:09:15 -0700
Subject: Omaha-Ponca 'to say' (RE:  Dhegiha prehistory, cont.)
In-Reply-To: <F73B91BED37FD5119F970008C7CF50FC079F0880@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.220915.0700.>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> >I've been meaning to comment in regard to this that my recollection is
> that the ph first person is found in Ponca only with eg(i)=..e 'to say
> to', not e=..e 'to say', e.g., egiphe 'I said to him', but ehe 'I said'.
>
> Kathy confirms this in a note she sent me last week.  She has also uncovered
> a few instances of /athe/ 'must have' that Mr. Williams was willing to
> confirm/produce for her.

That's really great on the athe!  I'm curious about second persons, etc.,
of course.

I've sometimes argued that OP *ph > h (sporadic) might be influence from
the similar change in the first persons of 'say' in Winnebago and
Ioway-Otoe, but, of course, in itself this could be coincidence.  It also
needn't imply anything about proto-Mississippi Valley, since the Omaha and
Ponca were closely associated with the Otoes from at least the early 1700s
to the middle 1800s, and perhaps before that in some analyses of the Blood
Run site.

As far as I can recollect at the moment, the only examples of *ph to h in
Omaha-Ponca are *e=p-he 'I say' and *o-..phe 'to pass along'.  It doesn't
occur in, for example, aNphaN 'elk' or p-hi 'I arrive there'.  OK, it also
occurs in *z^o=..phe 'to wade' and *z^a=..phe 'to stab'.  Maybe also in a
root having to do with pounding in a mortar.


From enichol4 at attbi.com  Mon Feb  4 06:13:34 2002
From: enichol4 at attbi.com (Eric)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 00:13:34 -0600
Subject: pomme de terre
Message-ID: <MON.4.FEB.2002.001334.0600.>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan H. Hartley" <ahartley at d.umn.edu>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: pomme de terre


> Thanks to Dave for the essay on Algonquian mushrooms and blood-clots,
> and to Bob and John for theirs on Siouan pomme de terre. I'm happy to
> learn that the referent is (usually?) Apios americana.
>
> So, for wapato look-alikes, we have:
>
> Chinook Jargon wap(a)to 'wapato' (perh. < Chinookan wa- + Kalapuyan
> -pdo)
> Ojibway wa:pado: 'rhubarb; shelf fungus' (< wa:p- 'white' + -ado:w-)
> Dakotan m-do 'ground-nut' (< *wa- + to 'Apios Americana')
>
> They're probably accidental similarities: there's no evidence I know of
> to support a chain of transmission Dakota (Algonquian) (> Can. Fr.) >
> Chinook Jargon, though there certainly are cases of Ojibway (and Cree?)
> words making it into CJ.
>
> Thanks for all the help.
>
> Alan
>
> P.S. Yes, Bob, Creek pato is 'mushroom'.

Creek may have pato for 'mushroom', but Byington gives Choctaw chulahtuNsh,
luNslo, and pakti; Munro and Willmond give Chickasaw pakti'; Kimball gives
pakto' for Koasati; and Sylestine, Hardy and Montler have pakto for Alabama.

Eric


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Feb  4 06:38:18 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 23:38:18 -0700
Subject: *pr vs. *wr (RE: pomme de terre)
In-Reply-To: <F73B91BED37FD5119F970008C7CF50FC079F087F@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.FEB.2002.233818.0700.>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> I think the *pr cluster is really *wr.  Dakotan [b] is from */w/, not
> *p.

Incidentally, I should have put do for 'potato' in Ioway-Otoe, since we've
been trying to write the voiced stops for the voiced to voiceless
unaspirated cases.

It's true that [b] (sometimes w or m) is from *W, and that we have every
reason to suspect that in the first persons of *r verbs and others that
syncopate the first person was originally *wa, reduced to *w, but I don't
think it's actually possible to distinguish *w and *p in *wr and *pr
clusters, and, given the phonetics of the *<?>r clusters, I think *pr is
probably the more reasonable value.

The following table summarizes my impression of the *pr/*wr sets.  The
actual distinctions follow the environment, including morphological class
of root.  I've pondered this data from time to and not come up with any
way to divide it into *pr and *wr cases except possibly by looking outside
Mississippi Valley, and not always even then.  Within, any divvying up
seems a matter of arbitrary fiat.  So, I prefer to say that we can't
distinguish them and to reconstruct *pr, since we also have *kr, though
only two sets that might be *tr (or *tw), with the proviso that *w + r
certain behaves as *pr and may explain most cases of it.

In certain environments (varying with the dialect/branch) *pr behaves as
*pR (Dakotan) or simplifies to *R (Dhegiha, IO and Wi).  Where Dhegiha,
IO, and Wi retain the labial, the reflex of *r is proper for *r, not *R.
Nasality seems to keep roots in the *r category in all dialects, but the
labial is mostly lost in sync with the loss in the corresponding oral
cluster.  We're not sure about *R vs. *r vs. *n before nasal vowels, so
it's hard to say whether Dakotan mni 'water' for, say *priN 'water' is *R
or *r or even *n behavior.

Pre-PMV   PMV             Vwl  Sa   Te   OP    OS     IO       Wi
          *pr (verb root) oral md   bl   bdh   br     br       pVrV
                          nas  mn   mn   bdh   br     br       pVrV
          *pr (medially)  oral md   bl   n     t ~ c  d ~ j^   d
                          nas  mn   mn   bdh   br     n ~ n~*  n
**w-r     *p-r (inflctn)  oral m-d  b-l  b-dh  b-r    d ~ j^   d
                          nas  m-n  m-n  b-dh  b-r    n ~ n~   n
**wV-r    *pr (noun root) oral md   bl   n     t ~ c  d ~ j^   d
                          nas  mn   mn   n     n      n ~ n~   n

* => br in '8', otherwise n~ in '3' and 'bean'

x ~ y is represents examples before back/low and front/high vowels, for
which, in some cases, the relevant examples do not occur.

Santee md (of Riggs) is actually bd, as far as I know, in most places.
I'm not sure about the dialect of the Santee reservation in Nebraska.
Yankton has bd, too.  Stoney and Assiniboine have mn - at least that's the
simplified version for non-students - but Stoney simplifies this to m in
verb inflection.

Examples:

Inflection - *r stems, of which there are examples with nasal root vowels,
though not cognate forms that I recall of hand, though 'have' is fairly
reliable.

Medial - with nasal following vowels, 'three' and 'eight' (where derived
from 'three') and 'bean', which is essentially regular, though it looks to
be a loan word.  With following oral vowel, 'woman's older brother', which
looks like a compound of 'house' and 'male'.

Verb root initials - things like 'flat' (oral) and 'have an odor' (nasal)

Noun root initials - things like 'lake' and 'male' and 'potato' (oral) and
'water' (nasal)

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Feb  4 07:05:35 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 00:05:35 -0700
Subject: pomme de terre
In-Reply-To: <E16XTcr-0007EO-00@falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <MON.4.FEB.2002.000535.0700.>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, David Costa wrote:
> This wanderwort might have come from Algonquian. The closest thing
> there is to a reconstructible Proto-Algonquian word for 'mushroom' is
> *wa:pato:wa~*ato:wa (the 'optional' *wa:p- on the front means
> 'white').

I looked at 'mushroom' in MVS, just out of curiosity.  For 'prairie
puffball' Gilmore gives Dakota (Santee) hoks^i' c^hekpa' 'baby navel'.  He
seems not to have collected terms in the other languages he looked at,
though he has some discussion of usage, say, for the Omaha.  He says the
Pawnee call it kaho rahik 'old kaho', referring to the older stage, which
is gathered for use as a stiptic, applied, for example, to baby's navels,
which he believes explains the Dakota name.

Looking in Swetland & Stabler (or Stabler & Swetland) and in LaFlesche, I
find mika exthi [mikka?exdhi] and mikkak?e for 'mushroom'.  This seems to
be suspiciously close to 'star'.  It could be analysed as 'racoon(s) dig
(it)'.  The xdhi part in Omaha may be explained by the term Gilmore gives
for 'corn smut', which is wahaba xdhi 'corn sores', where xdhi is
'sore(s)'.

I didn't manage to locate any additional terms for 'mushroom' in Dakotan,
though I looked briefly.  I also couldn't find an Ioway-Otoe term.  The
Winnebago terms were 'ghost' (or 'frog') plus 'umbrella' and 'ghost' + po'
(not glossed). There's a smear after po' in my copy of Miner, so perhaps
po' is only the first syllable.  I think the smear was in the original.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Feb  4 07:12:31 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 00:12:31 -0700
Subject: pomme de terre
In-Reply-To: <004101c1ad43$14440260$a096fb0c@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <MON.4.FEB.2002.001231.0700.>

On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Eric wrote:
> Creek may have pato for 'mushroom', but Byington gives Choctaw chulahtuNsh,
> luNslo, and pakti; Munro and Willmond give Chickasaw pakti'; Kimball gives
> pakto' for Koasati; and Sylestine, Hardy and Montler have pakto for Alabama.

I'm going to bet Creek pato, Choc. pakti, Chick pakti, Koas. pakto', Alab.
pakto are the set.

JEK


From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  4 14:42:07 2002
From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 06:42:07 -0800
Subject: pomme de terre
Message-ID: <MON.4.FEB.2002.064207.0800.>

Hmmm... If Alabama has pakto and Koasati has pakto', then probably the
resemblance between Creek pato and the Algonquian forms is just a
coincidence. This looks like a legit Muskogean cognate set.

David

----------
>From: Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
>To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
>Subject: Re: pomme de terre
>Date: Sun, Feb 3, 2002, 11:12 pm
>

> On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Eric wrote:
>> Creek may have pato for 'mushroom', but Byington gives Choctaw chulahtuNsh,
>> luNslo, and pakti; Munro and Willmond give Chickasaw pakti'; Kimball gives
>> pakto' for Koasati; and Sylestine, Hardy and Montler have pakto for Alabama.
>
> I'm going to bet Creek pato, Choc. pakti, Chick pakti, Koas. pakto', Alab.
> pakto are the set.
>
> JEK
>


From munro at ucla.edu  Mon Feb  4 15:30:04 2002
From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 07:30:04 -0800
Subject: pomme de terre
Message-ID: <MON.4.FEB.2002.073004.0800.>

David and John are right, I think -- the k loss in Creek is a common if not
regular process.

Pam



David Costa wrote:

> Hmmm... If Alabama has pakto and Koasati has pakto', then probably the
> resemblance between Creek pato and the Algonquian forms is just a
> coincidence. This looks like a legit Muskogean cognate set.
>
> David
>
> ----------
> >From: Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
> >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> >Subject: Re: pomme de terre
> >Date: Sun, Feb 3, 2002, 11:12 pm
> >
>
> > On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Eric wrote:
> >> Creek may have pato for 'mushroom', but Byington gives Choctaw chulahtuNsh,
> >> luNslo, and pakti; Munro and Willmond give Chickasaw pakti'; Kimball gives
> >> pakto' for Koasati; and Sylestine, Hardy and Montler have pakto for Alabama.
> >
> > I'm going to bet Creek pato, Choc. pakti, Chick pakti, Koas. pakto', Alab.
> > pakto are the set.
> >
> > JEK
> >


From BARudes at aol.com  Mon Feb  4 15:41:39 2002
From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 10:41:39 EST
Subject: pomme de terre
Message-ID: <MON.4.FEB.2002.104139.EST.>

The Catawba word for potato is 'wiNti: ki:  'literally, "root the".

Blair


From rankin at ku.edu  Mon Feb  4 23:04:36 2002
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:04:36 -0600
Subject: pomme de terre
Message-ID: <MON.4.FEB.2002.170436.0600.>

 Thisis so.  I should have looked at the Choctaw and other related forms
before posting.  I only remembered the Creek form.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Koontz John E
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Sent: 2/4/02 1:12 AM
Subject: Re: pomme de terre

On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Eric wrote:
> Creek may have pato for 'mushroom', but Byington gives Choctaw
chulahtuNsh,
> luNslo, and pakti; Munro and Willmond give Chickasaw pakti'; Kimball
gives
> pakto' for Koasati; and Sylestine, Hardy and Montler have pakto for
Alabama.

I'm going to bet Creek pato, Choc. pakti, Chick pakti, Koas. pakto',
Alab.
pakto are the set.

JEK


From rankin at ku.edu  Mon Feb  4 23:11:03 2002
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:11:03 -0600
Subject: pomme de terre
Message-ID: <MON.4.FEB.2002.171103.0600.>

>Assiniboine has another form, not the expected 'mno'.  Rather it's
paNghi.

Yeah, that comes up in Kaw (Kansa) as 'gourd' often enough.  It's what the
dancing mice con coyote into eating in the farting story.

Bob


From rankin at ku.edu  Mon Feb  4 23:31:58 2002
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:31:58 -0600
Subject: *pr vs. *wr (RE: pomme de terre)
Message-ID: <MON.4.FEB.2002.173158.0600.>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> I think the *pr cluster is really *wr.  Dakotan [b] is from */w/, not
> *p.

>It's true that [b] (sometimes w or m) is from *W, and that we have every
reason to suspect that in the first persons of *r verbs and others that
syncopate the first person was originally *wa, reduced to *w, but I
don't think it's actually possible to distinguish *w and *p in *wr and *pr
clusters, and, given the phonetics of the *<?>r clusters, I think *pr is
probably the more reasonable value.

I don't think there are any *pr clusters; they can all be derived from *wC.
The only one I can recall as even a possibility is in 'flat', which is a
widespread form with similar terms in Muskogean and so probably a borrowing.

Siouan /pC/ clusters outside of the 1st persons of verbs come overwhelmingly
from prefixes like *wa- or *wi- (the latter for animates, foodstuffs and a
few other terms). Considering the morphology, the *w emerges clearly as the
front-runner.

>The following table summarizes my impression of the *pr/*wr sets.  The
actual distinctions follow the environment, including morphological
class of root.  I've pondered this data from time to and not come up with
any way to divide it into *pr and *wr cases except possibly by looking
outside Mississippi Valley,...

Well, I think that's the first thing to do!  Go where the evidence is.  As
for MVS, I tried to show in my Siouan Conf. paper last year that [b] is
still an allophone of /w/ even synchronically.  It's been phonologized in a
few dialects, but mostly not.

>Within, any divvying up
>seems a matter of arbitrary fiat.  So, I prefer to say that we can't
distinguish them and to reconstruct *pr, since we also have *kr, though
only two sets that might be *tr (or *tw), with the proviso that *w + r
certain behaves as *pr and may explain most cases of it.

>In certain environments (varying with the dialect/branch) *pr behaves as
*pR (Dakotan) or simplifies to *R (Dhegiha, IO and Wi).  Where Dhegiha,
IO, and Wi retain the labial, the reflex of *r is proper for *r, not *R.
Nasality seems to keep roots in the *r category in all dialects, but the
labial is mostly lost in sync with the loss in the corresponding oral
cluster.  We're not sure about *R vs. *r vs. *n before nasal vowels, so
it's hard to say whether Dakotan mni 'water' for, say *priN 'water' is
*R
or *r or even *n behavior.

>Pre-PMV   PMV             Vwl  Sa   Te   OP    OS     IO       Wi
          *pr (verb root) oral md   bl   bdh   br     br       pVrV
                          nas  mn   mn   bdh   br     br       pVrV
          *pr (medially)  oral md   bl   n     t ~ c  d ~ j^   d
                          nas  mn   mn   bdh   br     n ~ n~*  n
**w-r     *p-r (inflctn)  oral m-d  b-l  b-dh  b-r    d ~ j^   d
                          nas  m-n  m-n  b-dh  b-r    n ~ n~   n
**wV-r    *pr (noun root) oral md   bl   n     t ~ c  d ~ j^   d
                          nas  mn   mn   n     n      n ~ n~   n

* => br in '8', otherwise n~ in '3' and 'bean'

>x ~ y is represents examples before back/low and front/high vowels, for
which, in some cases, the relevant examples do not occur.

>Santee md (of Riggs) is actually bd, as far as I know, in most places.
I'm not sure about the dialect of the Santee reservation in Nebraska.
Yankton has bd, too.  Stoney and Assiniboine have mn - at least that's
the
simplified version for non-students - but Stoney simplifies this to m in
verb inflection.

E>xamples:

Inflection - *r stems, of which there are examples with nasal root
vowels,
though not cognate forms that I recall of hand, though 'have' is fairly
reliable.

>Medial - with nasal following vowels, 'three' and 'eight' (where derived
from 'three') and 'bean', which is essentially regular, though it looks
to be a loan word.  With following oral vowel, 'woman's older brother',
which looks like a compound of 'house' and 'male'.

>Verb root initials - things like 'flat' (oral) and 'have an odor'
(nasal)

>Noun root initials - things like 'lake' and 'male' and 'potato' (oral)
and
'water' (nasal)

While I think it's important to chart out the sound correspondences as John
has done so thoroughly, in the final analysis it's necessary to figure out
what the morphemes are that are being represented in these frozen prefixes
of MVS.  Once you see that they go back to wa-s and wi-s, the phonological
source of the sets and their phonetic trajectories become clear.

The questionable tw or tr clusters seem to have kw origins outside of Siouan
probably, but this brings up a point.  There are numerous Dakotan clusters
that, so far as I know, no one has ever figured out.  These include sw, s^w,
xw, gm (some from kwVN) among others.

Bob


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue Feb  5 05:09:42 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 22:09:42 -0700
Subject: pomme de terre
In-Reply-To: <F73B91BED37FD5119F970008C7CF50FC079F0882@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.4.FEB.2002.220942.0700.>

> > Assiniboine has another form, not the expected 'mno'.  Rather it's
> > paNghi.
>
> Yeah, that comes up in Kaw (Kansa) as 'gourd' often enough.  It's what the
> dancing mice con coyote into eating in the farting story.

And so, presumably that's what the Trickster eats in the Omaha-Ponca and
Winnebago and Mandan (and Wichita and Cheyenne) stories?  Somehow I'd
imagined it was blo ~ nu, though I can't say that anything I've read
specifies, now that I think about it.

One of the best versions I've ever seen of this is the Mandan one recorded
by Dick Carter.  My recollections of it never failed to amuse my daughters
when they were young.  "Tell us the wild potato story, Daddy!"  I guess
the story of diving for plums was a close second.  Of course, I don't know
any of the songs and my story telling technique is pathetic.

In the Mandan version it's the largest "wild potato" (the Ancient of Wild
Potatoes, I guess!) who dialogs with Trickster (Whiteman), and the
impression is given that it is Trickster who fools himself in the face of
the honest warnings of the largest wild potato.

JEK


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Wed Feb  6 02:09:30 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:09:30 -0600
Subject: pomme de terre
Message-ID: <TUE.5.FEB.2002.200930.0600.>

Gary Moulton's footnote to Lewis' "common wild pittatoe" (VII.224):

Apios americana..Indian potato, ground nut, potato bean. It grows on the
banks of streams and floodplains and "is the true pomme de terre of the
French and the modo or wild potato of the Sioux Indians"... Report of
Commissioner of Agriculture for 1870

Note mdo.

Alan


From egooding at iupui.edu  Wed Feb  6 03:15:10 2002
From: egooding at iupui.edu (Erik Gooding)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 22:15:10 -0500
Subject: pomme de terre
In-Reply-To: <3C60905A.E28AFA3B@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.5.FEB.2002.221510.0500.>

I haven't followed this line closely, this may have been offered up
already, but mdo is the Santee-Sisseton Dakota for of the Lakota blo. I
can't remember the Yankton-Yanktonai form off the top of my head. I'm
digging through my Stoney fieldnotes to see if I can find the form there also.

EG

At 08:09 PM 2/5/02 -0600, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
>Gary Moulton's footnote to Lewis' "common wild pittatoe" (VII.224):
>
>Apios americana..Indian potato, ground nut, potato bean. It grows on the
>banks of streams and floodplains and "is the true pomme de terre of the
>French and the modo or wild potato of the Sioux Indians"... Report of
>Commissioner of Agriculture for 1870
>
>Note mdo.
>
>Alan
>
>


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Wed Feb  6 19:57:22 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 13:57:22 -0600
Subject: Siouanists, eat your heart out.
Message-ID: <WED.6.FEB.2002.135722.0600.>

M. Lewis 1 Aug. 1806 (Jrnls. VIII.145):

"I determined to halt..and indeavour to dry my skins of the bighorn
which had every appearance of spoiling, an event which I would not
should happen"

Alan


From rankin at ku.edu  Wed Feb  6 21:59:01 2002
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 15:59:01 -0600
Subject: Siouanists, eat your heart out.
Message-ID: <WED.6.FEB.2002.155901.0600.>

That's very nice.  I was just telling a Cherokee fellow in my Indian
Languages survey class that it didn't matter linguistically whether or not
he spoke like his grandfather did, because all languages evolve constantly.
This is a good case in point.  How many generations has it been since
'would' was truly the past tense of 'will' and was required by the
sequence-of-tenses rules in English sentences like the one below?  I'll use
the example in my next class.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan H. Hartley
To: Siouan
Sent: 2/6/02 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: Siouanists, eat your heart out.

M. Lewis 1 Aug. 1806 (Jrnls. VIII.145):

"I determined to halt..and indeavour to dry my skins of the bighorn
which had every appearance of spoiling, an event which I would not
should happen"

Alan


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Wed Feb  6 22:16:19 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 16:16:19 -0600
Subject: Siouanists, eat your heart out.
Message-ID: <WED.6.FEB.2002.161619.0600.>

Bob Rankin wrote:

> How many generations has it been since
> 'would' was truly the past tense of 'will' and was required by the
> sequence-of-tenses rules in English sentences like the one below?

These are the latest examples in the OED, Tennyson's being archaizing:

1643 [Angier] Lanc. Vall. Achor 18 When we would no Pardon they laboured
to punish us.

1682 Bunyan Holy War (1905) 263 He would that Captain Credence should
join himself with them.

1692 Washington tr. Milton's Def. People xii. 238 To perform, not what
he himself would, but what the People..requir'd of him.

1868 Tennyson Lucretius 68 Because I would not one of thine own doves,
Not ev'n a rose, were offer'd to thee.

The usage is, of course, recorded from Old English (c. A.D. 900) on.

Apologies for extending this non-Siouan excursus.

Alan


From rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu  Thu Feb  7 01:56:46 2002
From: rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu (rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 19:56:46 -0600
Subject: Omaha athe'
Message-ID: <WED.6.FEB.2002.195646.0600.>

Well, after all that build-up three weeks ago, I have
to report bad news on /athe'/.  We had both speakers
in class together recently, and I tried to expand on
the expression / AzhaN' athe' /, which Emmaline had
volunteered the previous session.  Alberta promptly
stopped me to correct my grammar: the expression was
/ AzhaN' the /; there was no a- there.  I looked
pleadingly at Emmaline; she smiled and deferred to
Alberta.  I tried the you, we and s/he forms; Alberta
was emphatic that it was simply /the/ in each case.
Both ladies took great amusement at the way I rolled
my eyes.

Emmaline's parents were uncommonly fluent speakers
of Omaha, but Alberta Canby is about a generation
older and has often shown herself to be very clear
and reliable in her explanation of the language.
It's possible that I prejudiced Emmaline in the
first instance by having quoted the expressions in
Dorsey that Bob was interested in confirming.  In
any case, I'm afraid the trail has run out at this
end.

I should note too that Alberta's use of /the/ here
is precisely in accord semantically with what John
has been saying all along, though I'm still having
trouble seeing it that way in Dorsey.  I'll want
to pursue this particle further.

Rory




                    rlarson at unlnotes01.un
                    l.edu                       To:     siouan at lists.colorado.edu
                    Sent by:                    cc:
                    owner-siouan at lists.co       Subject:     Re: Attn: Dhegiholics.
                    lorado.edu


                    01/14/2002 06:33 PM
                    Please respond to
                    siouan







Bob,

I submitted your sentences to Emmaline Sanchez, one of our two Omaha
speakers, in class today.  She had no trouble at all accepting the
two sentences from Dorsey as valid:

     Na!  Agdha'the athe'!
     Well!  I must have eaten it (my own)!

     Agdha'sni kki azhaN' athe'!
     When I swallowed it, I must have been asleep!

When I tried to conjugate it, though, I got into trouble.  Something
like

     Dhagdha'the dhathe'!

sounded redundant, as the last word also means 'eat'.  In fact, at
one point in there it seemed she was telling me that athe' itself
could also mean 'eat', which it probably does if they elide the
initial dh-.  (I ruefully recall a moment last semester when I was
all ready to rush onto the list with news of the discovery of a
brand new article, iNkhe'.)

I think I got acceptance when I tried athe' with 2nd and 3rd person
forms, but I'm not quite sure, as we were possibly at the point of
confusion by then.  I'll try running these by them again later.

In the first person, at least, I think we're clear that this form
is valid and still used in Omaha.  Emmaline explained the word athe'
as meaning you must have done something, and even offered an example
of her own.  If someone tells you they were trying to get a hold of
you at ten o'clock the previous morning, you can tell them:

     AzhaN' athe'.
     I must have been sleeping.

> WHAT I'D LIKE TO FIND OUT IS WHETHER THIS IS REALLY A CONJUGATED
> "EVIDENTIAL ARTICLE" OR SOME OTHER, UNIDENTIFIED, PARTICLE.

At present, the evidence here seems to be that athe' is an
independent particle that does not conjugate.  We'll need to do a
little more work to be sure of this, however.

Rory


From kdshea at ku.edu  Thu Feb  7 06:09:58 2002
From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 00:09:58 -0600
Subject: Omaha athe'
Message-ID: <THU.7.FEB.2002.000958.0600.>

I'm somewhat slow in responding to some of the recent postings, but I
thought I'd at least try to copy and paste some of what I e-mailed to Bob
Rankin concerning the athe' issue in Ponca, which I reproduce below
(somewhat edited):

I finally did get an /athe/ form from Uncle Parrish, but not where I
expected it.  I gave him the three sentences you suggested, even letting him
read the printout of your message, and here's what I got (with accents after
the vowel, or after the first vowel letter of a double "long" vowel) for "I
must have forgotten to feed the cat;" "I must have been walking in my
sleep;" and "I must have drunk up all the milk last night (but I don't
remember it)":

ppu'si dhiNkhe i'bdhis^i'the agi'sidha maNz^i(N)  (actually, "I forgot to
feed the cat.")

z^aNda'dhiNge maNbdhiN ebdhegaN  "Maybe I was walking in my sleep."
maNze'ni the bdhuga bdha'sni ebdhe'gaN haN'edi  " Maybe I drank all that
milk up last night."

I tried to elicit some 1st person inclusive forms and got these:

maNze'ni the bdhuga aNdha'sni u'dhiNwiNtti the'tta pidu'ba dhiNwiN dhe'wadhe
"We must have drunk all the milk; let's go to the store and buy some more."

maNze'nithe bdhuga aNdha(N)'sni aN'gathaN  "We drank all this milk up."

However, later Uncle Parrish was telling me about young men who claim to be
imparting wisdom by saying "Nia's^iga is^?a'ge gathe'gidhaN awa'naN?aN" ("I
heard some old folks say this"), in other words, according to hearsay, or
"Gathega is^?age iNwiNdhai" ("This is the way that old man told me").  If an
elderly man was listening, he'd remark, "Eb(e) uwi'dhabi'athe?"  ("I wonder
who told him?").  The implication was that the young men should name their
sources in order to speak with authority.  This last Ponca sentence has an
instance of the /athe/ everyone's been talking about.  It seems here to be
accompanied by a meaning of wonder or speculation.

Another example with /athe/:

e'b(e) ugi'ppidhabi'athe  "I wonder who filled it (i.e., my car with gas)."
(PW says here that "who" can refer to one or more persons.)

However, Uncle Parrish also came up with the following question and answer,
which doesn't contain /athe/, showing the difficulting of eliciting
sentences containing /athe/, at least on first pass:

e'b(e)ugi'ppidhe skene'gaNwa  "Who do you think filled it up?"

dhiz^iN'iNdhe ama ugi'ppidhai  "Your older brother filled it up."

Kathy Shea

P.s.  I'm wondering, considering the difficulty we have getting the
inclusive, second, and third person forms, if there's a remote possibility
that the /a/ of /athe/ could be the sentence-final question particle of an
embedded sentence since the sentences ending in /athe/ in the above examples
have to do with wondering, or asking oneself if something's true.

    ----- Original Message -----
From: <rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: Omaha athe'


>
> Well, after all that build-up three weeks ago, I have
> to report bad news on /athe'/.  We had both speakers
> in class together recently, and I tried to expand on
> the expression / AzhaN' athe' /, which Emmaline had
> volunteered the previous session.  Alberta promptly
> stopped me to correct my grammar: the expression was
> / AzhaN' the /; there was no a- there.  I looked
> pleadingly at Emmaline; she smiled and deferred to
> Alberta.  I tried the you, we and s/he forms; Alberta
> was emphatic that it was simply /the/ in each case.
> Both ladies took great amusement at the way I rolled
> my eyes.
>
> Emmaline's parents were uncommonly fluent speakers
> of Omaha, but Alberta Canby is about a generation
> older and has often shown herself to be very clear
> and reliable in her explanation of the language.
> It's possible that I prejudiced Emmaline in the
> first instance by having quoted the expressions in
> Dorsey that Bob was interested in confirming.  In
> any case, I'm afraid the trail has run out at this
> end.
>
> I should note too that Alberta's use of /the/ here
> is precisely in accord semantically with what John
> has been saying all along, though I'm still having
> trouble seeing it that way in Dorsey.  I'll want
> to pursue this particle further.
>
> Rory
>
>
>
>
>                     rlarson at unlnotes01.un
>                     l.edu                       To:
siouan at lists.colorado.edu
>                     Sent by:                    cc:
>                     owner-siouan at lists.co       Subject:     Re: Attn:
Dhegiholics.
>                     lorado.edu
>
>
>                     01/14/2002 06:33 PM
>                     Please respond to
>                     siouan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bob,
>
> I submitted your sentences to Emmaline Sanchez, one of our two Omaha
> speakers, in class today.  She had no trouble at all accepting the
> two sentences from Dorsey as valid:
>
>      Na!  Agdha'the athe'!
>      Well!  I must have eaten it (my own)!
>
>      Agdha'sni kki azhaN' athe'!
>      When I swallowed it, I must have been asleep!
>
> When I tried to conjugate it, though, I got into trouble.  Something
> like
>
>      Dhagdha'the dhathe'!
>
> sounded redundant, as the last word also means 'eat'.  In fact, at
> one point in there it seemed she was telling me that athe' itself
> could also mean 'eat', which it probably does if they elide the
> initial dh-.  (I ruefully recall a moment last semester when I was
> all ready to rush onto the list with news of the discovery of a
> brand new article, iNkhe'.)
>
> I think I got acceptance when I tried athe' with 2nd and 3rd person
> forms, but I'm not quite sure, as we were possibly at the point of
> confusion by then.  I'll try running these by them again later.
>
> In the first person, at least, I think we're clear that this form
> is valid and still used in Omaha.  Emmaline explained the word athe'
> as meaning you must have done something, and even offered an example
> of her own.  If someone tells you they were trying to get a hold of
> you at ten o'clock the previous morning, you can tell them:
>
>      AzhaN' athe'.
>      I must have been sleeping.
>
> > WHAT I'D LIKE TO FIND OUT IS WHETHER THIS IS REALLY A CONJUGATED
> > "EVIDENTIAL ARTICLE" OR SOME OTHER, UNIDENTIFIED, PARTICLE.
>
> At present, the evidence here seems to be that athe' is an
> independent particle that does not conjugate.  We'll need to do a
> little more work to be sure of this, however.
>
> Rory
>
>
>
>


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu Feb  7 14:57:56 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 07:57:56 -0700
Subject: Omaha athe'
In-Reply-To: <003b01c1af9e$12d7a320$4409ed81@9afl3>
Message-ID: <THU.7.FEB.2002.075756.0700.>

On Thu, 7 Feb 2002, Kathleen Shea wrote:
> P.s.  I'm wondering, considering the difficulty we have getting the
> inclusive, second, and third person forms, if there's a remote possibility
> that the /a/ of /athe/ could be the sentence-final question particle of an
> embedded sentence since the sentences ending in /athe/ in the above examples
> have to do with wondering, or asking oneself if something's true.

As a matter of fact, looking at your examples, the same thing occurred to
me, though the order is pretty weird, and I'm not sure how to go about
testing the hypothesis.  I guess the sentences should make sense with the
/the/ omitted.

JEK


From cqcq at compuserve.com  Thu Feb  7 18:48:29 2002
From: cqcq at compuserve.com (Carolyn Quintero)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 13:48:29 -0500
Subject: pomme de terre
Message-ID: <THU.7.FEB.2002.134829.0500.>

I think the Osage root for 'potato' has a long vowel.  too'ska 'white
potato' --the common variety.
Carolyn


From are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu  Fri Feb  8 00:32:46 2002
From: are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu (Ardis R Eschenberg)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 19:32:46 -0500
Subject: pomme de terre and atHe
In-Reply-To: <200202071348_MC3-F11E-4C7@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <THU.7.FEB.2002.193246.0500.>

Hi.  I'm very behind on keeping up with things but a few notes.
1. Re:atHe in Kathy's sentences (which are SO nice), I am pretty sure it
might be the question particle (which is very optional for men in Omaha
anyway and therefore would less reliably elicit).

I haven't seen conjugated tHe for what it's worth.

2. Mushroom in OP - I know it's not historically what yer looking for, but
the common mushroom here is morel and it's tenixa gthezhe (spotted cow
stomach).

Regards,
Ardis


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Feb  8 05:16:27 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:16:27 -0700
Subject: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre
Message-ID: <THU.7.FEB.2002.221627.0700.>

I ran across a potato in:

Wedel, Mildred Mott.  1974.  LeSueur and the Dakota Sioux.  pp.  157-172,
Aspects of Upper Great Lakes Anthropology:  Papers in Honor of Lloyd A.
Wilford.  Ed. by Elden Johnson.  With a combined list of references. St.
Paul:  Minnesota Historical Society.

This article includes a list of early village (hence band) names, one of
which is Menostamenaton, glossed as Nation de la pomme de terre.  I assume
Meno is mno and ton is thuN[waN] 'village, band'.  I can't figure out
stamena, though -na might be the diminutive.

Warning - these names are not always glossed correctly, and the spelling
may be mangled at either the hearing stage or some later transcriptional
stage, e.g., Yanktons comes out Hinhanetonsouanons, where one might expect
Hi(n)hanctonouanons, for IhaNkthuNwaN=na 'little end-villagers'.  The
extra -s- may be a result of analyzing the form as Hinhanetons ouanons,
with a modifier (agreeing in number in French).

This latter was actually glossed 'village de la pierre separee des
autres', which I make 'stone village separated from the others'.  I think
this refers to the gloss 'Stone Sioux' for Ojibwa Assiniboine (assini- is
'stone' and boine is 'Sioux'), cf. Engish Stoney.

In this context, the 'separated from the others' is an early reference (c.
1683) to the notion that the Yanktonais are a group of Assiniboine/Stoney
Sioux who have separated from the rest and joined the Seven Council Fires
grouping instead.

This is a kind of fun list, if anyone is interested in old band names,
which are often nice early sources of vocabulary, e.g., the very first
name in the list is Tangapsinton 'village de la Crosse', Perhaps
representing tham-kapsin-thuN[waN] or something like 'ball-playing
village', from thapa 'ball' + kapsic^a 'to make jump with a blow, as in
shinney' (or kapsiNta 'to whip'?) + thuN[waN] 'village, band'.  Williams
gives t[h]akapsic^api as 'lacrosse'.  Riggs has t[h]akapsic^a 'to play
ball by taking up the ball in the club and throwing it' and
t[h]akic^apsic^a 'a ball club'.  Perhaps kapsic^a 'throw with a stick' is
a specialized meaning of 'make jump with a blow'.  It looks like the
t[h]a- in Santee is a reduction of thapa, corresponding in comparable
words to Teton thab-.  In this context, the -n- in Tan-gapsintons becomes
interesting.  Rather than nasalization, it's probably a reflection of -m
in tham-, a Santee vesion of thab-.

A better known example of a disappearing -n is Teton, if it's based on
thiNta 'prairie'.  In that case ThithuNwaN has to be reduced from
thiNl-thuNwaN, pronounced [thiNn=thuNwaN].

Another of LeSueur's village names that I just figured out, because it
*is* glossed correctly, is Ouidaougecunaton 'nation de l'Isle pleine' or
'People of the full island'.  Ouida is clearly wita 'island', but ougecuna
is somewhat obscure:  uz^kuna?  However, since oz^ula is Teton for 'full',
I suspect this is a misreading of ouge-ou-na.  So it really is
'full-island people'.

JEK


From egooding at iupui.edu  Fri Feb  8 13:59:03 2002
From: egooding at iupui.edu (Erik Gooding)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 08:59:03 -0500
Subject: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.40.0202072117320.20080-100000@spot.colorado.edu >
Message-ID: <FRI.8.FEB.2002.085903.0500.>

See Doug Parks' and Ray DeMallie's work on this list in the Handbook of
North American Indians, p. 723-24. They answer  most of your question
including stamena.

At 10:16 PM 2/7/02 -0700, Koontz John E wrote:
>I ran across a potato in:
>
>Wedel, Mildred Mott.  1974.  LeSueur and the Dakota Sioux.  pp.  157-172,
>Aspects of Upper Great Lakes Anthropology:  Papers in Honor of Lloyd A.
>Wilford.  Ed. by Elden Johnson.  With a combined list of references. St.
>Paul:  Minnesota Historical Society.
>
>This article includes a list of early village (hence band) names, one of
>which is Menostamenaton, glossed as Nation de la pomme de terre.  I assume
>Meno is mno and ton is thuN[waN] 'village, band'.  I can't figure out
>stamena, though -na might be the diminutive.
>
>Warning - these names are not always glossed correctly, and the spelling
>may be mangled at either the hearing stage or some later transcriptional
>stage, e.g., Yanktons comes out Hinhanetonsouanons, where one might expect
>Hi(n)hanctonouanons, for IhaNkthuNwaN=na 'little end-villagers'.  The
>extra -s- may be a result of analyzing the form as Hinhanetons ouanons,
>with a modifier (agreeing in number in French).
>
>This latter was actually glossed 'village de la pierre separee des
>autres', which I make 'stone village separated from the others'.  I think
>this refers to the gloss 'Stone Sioux' for Ojibwa Assiniboine (assini- is
>'stone' and boine is 'Sioux'), cf. Engish Stoney.
>
>In this context, the 'separated from the others' is an early reference (c.
>1683) to the notion that the Yanktonais are a group of Assiniboine/Stoney
>Sioux who have separated from the rest and joined the Seven Council Fires
>grouping instead.
>
>This is a kind of fun list, if anyone is interested in old band names,
>which are often nice early sources of vocabulary, e.g., the very first
>name in the list is Tangapsinton 'village de la Crosse', Perhaps
>representing tham-kapsin-thuN[waN] or something like 'ball-playing
>village', from thapa 'ball' + kapsic^a 'to make jump with a blow, as in
>shinney' (or kapsiNta 'to whip'?) + thuN[waN] 'village, band'.  Williams
>gives t[h]akapsic^api as 'lacrosse'.  Riggs has t[h]akapsic^a 'to play
>ball by taking up the ball in the club and throwing it' and
>t[h]akic^apsic^a 'a ball club'.  Perhaps kapsic^a 'throw with a stick' is
>a specialized meaning of 'make jump with a blow'.  It looks like the
>t[h]a- in Santee is a reduction of thapa, corresponding in comparable
>words to Teton thab-.  In this context, the -n- in Tan-gapsintons becomes
>interesting.  Rather than nasalization, it's probably a reflection of -m
>in tham-, a Santee vesion of thab-.
>
>A better known example of a disappearing -n is Teton, if it's based on
>thiNta 'prairie'.  In that case ThithuNwaN has to be reduced from
>thiNl-thuNwaN, pronounced [thiNn=thuNwaN].
>
>Another of LeSueur's village names that I just figured out, because it
>*is* glossed correctly, is Ouidaougecunaton 'nation de l'Isle pleine' or
>'People of the full island'.  Ouida is clearly wita 'island', but ougecuna
>is somewhat obscure:  uz^kuna?  However, since oz^ula is Teton for 'full',
>I suspect this is a misreading of ouge-ou-na.  So it really is
>'full-island people'.
>
>JEK
>
>


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Sat Feb  9 15:36:37 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 09:36:37 -0600
Subject: MANDAN redux (was Re: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre)
Message-ID: <SAT.9.FEB.2002.093637.0600.>

Erik Gooding wrote:
>
> See Doug Parks' and Ray DeMallie's work on this list in the Handbook of
> North American Indians, p. 723-24.

Item no. 9. on the list of eastern Sioux village names of Le Sueur
(1699-1702) is Mantanton. The -ton is Sioux -thuN 'village', and the
balance appears identical to MANDAN. Le Sueur apparently glosses the
name (or describes the group) twice, as 'N[ation] de la Grosse Roche'
and as 'village d'un grand lac qui se decharge dans un petit'. DeMallie,
the author of the HNAI article, doesn't give a retranscription of the
name.

This group (east of the Mississippi?) is a long way from the Mandan, but
the similarity in the form of the name is really striking, perhaps
showing a Sioux toponym/ethnonym type common to Santee and Assiniboine
(which was the source of the early 18c. French Mantanne).

If anyone can make a connection between Mantan and Le Sueur's glosses,
I'd much appreciate a note.

Alan


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Feb 10 06:55:45 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 23:55:45 -0700
Subject: MANDAN redux (was Re: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre)
In-Reply-To: <3C654205.EFAC41FA@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.9.FEB.2002.235545.0700.>

On Sat, 9 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> Item no. 9. on the list of eastern Sioux village names of Le Sueur
> (1699-1702) is Mantanton. The -ton is Sioux -thuN 'village', and the
> balance appears identical to MANDAN. Le Sueur apparently glosses the
> name (or describes the group) twice, as 'N[ation] de la Grosse Roche'
> and as 'village d'un grand lac qui se decharge dans un petit'. DeMallie,
> the author of the HNAI article, doesn't give a retranscription of the
> name.

I have a citation in my comments on the names recommending Hodge 1907-10:
I, 819, which is The Handbook of American Indians North of Mexico.

I think this is intended to render MdonthuN = Mdo't(e) + thuNwaN.  The
word mdo'te appears in Riggs glossed 'the mouth or junction of one river
with another (a name commonly applied to the country about Fort Snelling,
or the mouth of the Saint Peters; also the name appropriated to the
establisment of the Fur Company at the junction of the river, written
Mendota); the outlet of a lake.  T. iyoh.loke."  I can't find the expected
Teton cognate *blote in Buechel, but iyoxloke, cited by Riggs, does
appear.  Williamson has under 'mouth', 'the mouth of the river, iyoxdoke,
mdote', so it looks like Santee also has iyoxdoke cf. iyoxloke.

If you consider Mendota in contracted form as Mendon, you can easily see
the basis for Mantanton.  Pursuing the obvious question, I don't see that
this helps us understand the term Mandan, which is rather different in
form in the original, cf., OP mawadaN.  The similarity of Mendon ~ Mantan
and Mandan is mainly in English.

It's morphologically interesting that mdo'te is initially stressed,
though this is consistent with the contracted form mdon.  Usually C-final
roots that end in e are finally stressed (on the -e), if bisyllabic.  They
do commonly refer to body parts or other inalienable possessions.  In this
case we have a part of a river network.

Historically, this term is also interesting.  As we know from the *pr or
*wr correspondences, we should be looking for OP *nude, Os *toce, Wi
*dooc^ as correspondences.  And we do find these terms, with the meanings
'throat'.  But these are compared to Te lote' 'throat'.  These terms
appear perhaps to mean throat in the sense of the windpipe in at least
some cases.  This is an entirely appropriate gloss for 'mouth of a
stream', cf.  English gullet, French goulet 'narrow entrance to a port'.
So maybe here we actually have a Dakota doublet with *wr ~ *R?  (Bob
Rankin, take note!)  Do we have any others, I wonder?


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Sun Feb 10 16:23:57 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 10:23:57 -0600
Subject: MANDAN redux (was Re: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre)
Message-ID: <SUN.10.FEB.2002.102357.0600.>

Koontz John E wrote:

> If you consider Mendota in contracted form as Mendon, you can easily see
> the basis for Mantanton.  Pursuing the obvious question, I don't see that
> this helps us understand the term Mandan, which is rather different in
> form in the original, cf., OP mawadaN.  The similarity of Mendon ~ Mantan
> and Mandan is mainly in English.

I still question whether Siouan forms in mawa- are really the direct
source of de la V?rendrye's Mantanne, which he explicitly labels
Assiniboine and which is undoubtedly the source of Eng. Mandan. I think
he would have written the name as Maoua- (or something similar) had the
native etymon been mawa-. (And remember Mandan maNta 'Missouri River':
is it reasonable to imagine the Assiniboines arriving at the Missouri,
inquiring of the resident Mandans the name of the river, adding to it
their locative suffix -n and using it to refer to the Mandans, 'those at
the Missouri'?)

Granted Mendon ~ Mantan may well be of different origin, but the
earliest Fr. examples we have of them (Mantan- and Mantanne) are nearly
identical.

Alan


From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Feb 10 16:33:25 2002
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 10:33:25 -0600
Subject: MANDAN redux (was Re: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre)
Message-ID: <SUN.10.FEB.2002.103325.0600.>

Re: Dakotan iyoxloke.  I take it this is realted to Kaw xloge 'empty,
hollow' and the root related to xloje 'shed, as the skin of a locust or bark
of a tree'  If it's related to 'throat' the implication is that xlo- is
bimorphemic, something that is entirely possible, although I can't think of
any other examples of [fricative]+lV- that are, at least off the top of my
head.  Probably all the [fric]lV sequences should be explored by someone at
some point.  Many are phonesthemes, but I don't suppose that prevents some
of them being historically bimorphemic.

Bob


-----Original Message-----
From: Koontz John E
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Sent: 2/10/02 12:55 AM
Subject: Re: MANDAN redux (was Re: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre)

On Sat, 9 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> Item no. 9. on the list of eastern Sioux village names of Le Sueur
> (1699-1702) is Mantanton. The -ton is Sioux -thuN 'village', and the
> balance appears identical to MANDAN. Le Sueur apparently glosses the
> name (or describes the group) twice, as 'N[ation] de la Grosse Roche'
> and as 'village d'un grand lac qui se decharge dans un petit'.
DeMallie,
> the author of the HNAI article, doesn't give a retranscription of the
> name.

I have a citation in my comments on the names recommending Hodge
1907-10:
I, 819, which is The Handbook of American Indians North of Mexico.

I think this is intended to render MdonthuN = Mdo't(e) + thuNwaN.  The
word mdo'te appears in Riggs glossed 'the mouth or junction of one river
with another (a name commonly applied to the country about Fort
Snelling,
or the mouth of the Saint Peters; also the name appropriated to the
establisment of the Fur Company at the junction of the river, written
Mendota); the outlet of a lake.  T. iyoh.loke."  I can't find the
expected
Teton cognate *blote in Buechel, but iyoxloke, cited by Riggs, does
appear.  Williamson has under 'mouth', 'the mouth of the river,
iyoxdoke,
mdote', so it looks like Santee also has iyoxdoke cf. iyoxloke.

If you consider Mendota in contracted form as Mendon, you can easily see
the basis for Mantanton.  Pursuing the obvious question, I don't see
that
this helps us understand the term Mandan, which is rather different in
form in the original, cf., OP mawadaN.  The similarity of Mendon ~
Mantan
and Mandan is mainly in English.

It's morphologically interesting that mdo'te is initially stressed,
though this is consistent with the contracted form mdon.  Usually
C-final
roots that end in e are finally stressed (on the -e), if bisyllabic.
They
do commonly refer to body parts or other inalienable possessions.  In
this
case we have a part of a river network.

Historically, this term is also interesting.  As we know from the *pr or
*wr correspondences, we should be looking for OP *nude, Os *toce, Wi
*dooc^ as correspondences.  And we do find these terms, with the
meanings
'throat'.  But these are compared to Te lote' 'throat'.  These terms
appear perhaps to mean throat in the sense of the windpipe in at least
some cases.  This is an entirely appropriate gloss for 'mouth of a
stream', cf.  English gullet, French goulet 'narrow entrance to a port'.
So maybe here we actually have a Dakota doublet with *wr ~ *R?  (Bob
Rankin, take note!)  Do we have any others, I wonder?


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Sun Feb 10 17:40:52 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:40:52 -0600
Subject: Ponca
Message-ID: <SUN.10.FEB.2002.114052.0600.>

Lewis & Clark frequently (but by no means always) write the name with
[r] which I've usually taken to be a spelling indication of the length
of the preceding [a]. But there are several cases in which it seems more
than that, e.g., Ponceras, Poncaries.

Does this ring a bell with anyone?

Alan


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Feb 10 18:31:01 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:31:01 -0700
Subject: Ponca
In-Reply-To: <3C66B0A4.EC09DA7E@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.10.FEB.2002.113101.0700.>

On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> Lewis & Clark frequently (but by no means always) write the name with
> [r] which I've usually taken to be a spelling indication of the length
> of the preceding [a]. But there are several cases in which it seems more
> than that, e.g., Ponceras, Poncaries.
>
> Does this ring a bell with anyone?

The Winnebago article (perhaps not a "definite" article per se) is -ra,
cf.  Hooc^aN'k ~ Hooc^aNgara 'Winnebago'.  And, maybe more to the point,
Ioway-Otoe has are 'that, those'.  I'm not able to offer a clear
explanation of the conditions under which these [articles would be
present, though I can at least say that they are absent from the first
element in compounds.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Feb 10 18:42:54 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:42:54 -0700
Subject: MANDAN redux (was Re: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre)
In-Reply-To: <3C669E9D.5A74AD7@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.10.FEB.2002.114254.0700.>

On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> I still question whether Siouan forms in mawa- are really the direct
> source of de la V?rendrye's Mantanne, which he explicitly labels
> Assiniboine and which is undoubtedly the source of Eng. Mandan. I think
> he would have written the name as Maoua- (or something similar) had the
> native etymon been mawa-. (And remember Mandan maNta 'Missouri River':

Well, Teton for Mandan is MiwataNni, but I shouldn't comment further,
until I get the Plains volumes of the Handbook and review what we said on
the list last time.  I don't know what the Assiniboine term for Mandan is
apart from Verendrye's testimony.  French transcriptions are usually
fairly good, but sometimes they fall shy of the mark.

> is it reasonable to imagine the Assiniboines arriving at the Missouri,
> inquiring of the resident Mandans the name of the river, adding to it
> their locative suffix -n and using it to refer to the Mandans, 'those
> at the Missouri'?)

I don't see why not, even without a visit, but I wonder where the
widespread -wi/a- element comes form.  I'm certainly getting a fair second
hand knowledge of Afgan geography.

> Granted Mendon ~ Mantan may well be of different origin, but the
> earliest Fr. examples we have of them (Mantan- and Mantanne) are nearly
> identical.

However, I think we can see that Mantan(ton) is probably the result of
fairly bad transcription (perhaps combined with trouble in the process of
transmitting the written forms).

A possibility we might want to explore is that the name Mandan - without
-wa/i- is somehow connected to MdonthuN.  Is there any reason why the
Mandans might have been know as 'outlet (or straights) people'?  We'd have
to assume that the name has been transmitted to the the Assiniboine via a
non-Dakota route.

JEK


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Sun Feb 10 19:50:45 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 13:50:45 -0600
Subject: MANDAN redux (was Re: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre)
Message-ID: <SUN.10.FEB.2002.135045.0600.>

Koontz John E wrote:

> Well, Teton for Mandan is MiwataNni, but I shouldn't comment further,
> until I get the Plains volumes of the Handbook and review what we said on
> the list last time.  I don't know what the Assiniboine term for Mandan is
> apart from Verendrye's testimony.  French transcriptions are usually
> fairly good, but sometimes they fall shy of the mark.

HNAI 13.363 has Assiniboine may?tana, may?tani. I don't think Mantanne
is a likely transcription of either of those. And I imagine that had de
la V?rendrye's version been too far off the mark, it wouldn't have
survived alone so long without more accurate versions having appeared in
the written record. Fr.-Can. traders had a great deal of first-hand
experience of the Assiniboine language.

Is A. -y- in such an environment a regular reflex of other Siouan -w- ?
HNAI 17.444 says that Lakhota intervocalic -y- and -w- are pronounced
weakly, if at all. That gets us to m?tana, but we still have the first
-n- in Mandan to account for.

As far as Teton forms go, there are the Fr.-Eng. vars. in -l (ca. 1800),
e.g., Mandal, again without -w- or -y-, which I assume show Teton
influence.

The Mandans were centered at the confluence of the Heart River and the
Missouri which would accord pretty well with Le Sueur's gloss of
Mantanton 'village d'un grand lac qui se decharge dans un petit'. And
Hayden (1862 p.426) has "The Mandans, or Mi-ah'ta-nes [h dot above, e
with macron] 'people on the bank' (of the river), as they call
themselves": note the similarity to A. may?tana.

Alan


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Sun Feb 10 20:26:07 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 14:26:07 -0600
Subject: Ponca
Message-ID: <SUN.10.FEB.2002.142607.0600.>

Koontz John E wrote:

> The Winnebago article (perhaps not a "definite" article per se) is -ra,
> cf.  Hooc^aN'k ~ Hooc^aNgara 'Winnebago'.  And, maybe more to the point,
> Ioway-Otoe has are 'that, those'.  I'm not able to offer a clear
> explanation of the conditions under which these [articles would be
> present, though I can at least say that they are absent from the first
> element in compounds.

Thanks: I'd forgotten that I hadn't figured out the -ra in
Hochunk~Hochungra! (Does ['] indicate stress?) All the examples I have
from the 18th and 19th centuries have -ra: the plain Hochunk type
doesn't show up till the 20th.

Does -ra exist in the Dhegiha languages? Of course, people coming
upriver might well have learned a Chiwere name for the Ponca.

Alan


From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Feb 10 22:44:09 2002
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 16:44:09 -0600
Subject: Ponca
Message-ID: <SUN.10.FEB.2002.164409.0600.>

Ordinarily, when I see <ar> in older orthographic rendering of Indian names,
I just assume it represents [a], as in "Arkansas" or "Harjo", Creek for
'brave'.  This is almost always true in the South, where post-vocalic R
didn't have a phonetic value, but it was true of various other R-less
English dialects too (Boston, NYC, etc.). It's true that sometimes it might
be a diacritic for length, but I don't think it has to be.

On the other hand, there were people who said "sofer" for sofa and Cuber for
"Cuba", which, I suppose was a hypercorrection, although it may have been a
geographic dialect pronunciation of word-final schwa.  Presumably they'd
have said "Dakoter" too.

As for "Ponca", there is really no regularly-occurring suffix or enclitic
with a /dh/, the nearest thing to [r] in Ponca, that would explain the
spellings.

Bob


-----Original Message-----
From: Alan H. Hartley
To: Siouan
Sent: 2/10/02 11:40 AM
Subject: Ponca

Lewis & Clark frequently (but by no means always) write the name with
[r] which I've usually taken to be a spelling indication of the length
of the preceding [a]. But there are several cases in which it seems more
than that, e.g., Ponceras, Poncaries.

Does this ring a bell with anyone?

Alan


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Feb 11 03:28:44 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 20:28:44 -0700
Subject: Ponca
In-Reply-To: <3C66D75F.E56641CB@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.10.FEB.2002.202844.0700.>

On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> Thanks: I'd forgotten that I hadn't figured out the -ra in
> Hochunk~Hochungra! (Does ['] indicate stress?) All the examples I have
> from the 18th and 19th centuries have -ra: the plain Hochunk type
> doesn't show up till the 20th.

The ' represents stress (an acute over the preceding vowel).  I believe
that the ra-less version was more common in English sources in the past.

> Does -ra exist in the Dhegiha languages? Of course, people coming
> upriver might well have learned a Chiwere name for the Ponca.

No, the -ra - as Bob points out, it would be -dha in OP (and in Osage, -ya
in Kaw, and -da in Quapaw) - doesn't occur in Dhegiha.  Instead you have
the whole panoply of positional articles.  In Dakotan you get ki(n) and
k?uN.  It's possible that the -ya suffix that some Dakotan nouns take in
free form, vs. nothing in bound form, is related.

So, for -ra or -(a)re to be added to Ponca, the name would have to be from
a Winnebago or Chiwere source.  I'd assume the latter, meaning you'd have
to assume /are/.  Problem:  while I know that -ra is fairly easily added
to nouns in Winnebago, I'm not actually sure if are has anything like the
same distribution (I think not) with nouns in Ioway-Otoe, though I have
seen it glossed as 'the', and this would be the only example I know of in
which it is attached to an ethnonym.  On the other hand, it's perfectly
reasonable that the name for the Ponca might be learned from an Ioway-Otoe
source, given the political topography of the Missouri River people in the
late 1700s-mid 1800s.  Perhaps somebody with more knowledge of Ioway-Otoe
syntax can comment.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Feb 11 04:10:15 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 21:10:15 -0700
Subject: MANDAN redux (was Re: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre)
In-Reply-To: <3C66CF15.360F1195@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.10.FEB.2002.211015.0700.>

On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> HNAI 13.363 has Assiniboine may?tana, may?tani. I don't think Mantanne
> is a likely transcription of either of those.  ...

> Is A. -y- in such an environment a regular reflex of other Siouan -w- ?

No, y is a bit of a surprise here.  It would reflect *r, while w is *w.

> HNAI 17.444 says that Lakhota intervocalic -y- and -w- are pronounced
> weakly, if at all. That gets us to m?tana, but we still have the first
> -n- in Mandan to account for.

I don't think it's impossible for aya to appear as a: - long a - in fast,
i.e., not careful, speech.  In fact, that's what is meant by -y- being
pronounced weakly in intervocalic position.  To get to /man/, note that
the resulting a: is nasal - it's after m - and that ma:N would be
naturally transcribed man before t, even by a Francophone.  Actually,
especially by a Francophone.

I expect that the surprising y for w substitution is to be accounted for
by the tendency of awa and aya to reduce to a: (aa).  Presented with a
reduced form, a speaker not familiar with the underlying form might
reconstitute the wrong underlying form.

> As far as Teton forms go, there are the Fr.-Eng. vars. in -l (ca. 1800),
> e.g., Mandal, again without -w- or -y-, which I assume show Teton
> influence.

It could also reflect Cree or Ojibway influence, since all three dialect
continuums have considerable dialect variation in "r" forms (y, r, l, n,
d, etc.).

> The Mandans were centered at the confluence of the Heart River and the
> Missouri which would accord pretty well with Le Sueur's gloss of
> Mantanton 'village d'un grand lac qui se decharge dans un petit'. And
> Hayden (1862 p.426) has "The Mandans, or Mi-ah'ta-nes [h dot above, e
> with macron] 'people on the bank' (of the river), as they call
> themselves": note the similarity to A. may?tana.

If it's a question of a lake discharging into another, I'd lay odds on
Minnesota.  And, while I'm not familiar with the junction of the Heart and
the Missouri, I'd expect that to be a small(er) discharging into a
large(r).  I'm also bothered by finding one somewhat distant western group
with several villages (not to mention the Hidatsa villages) included as a
unit in a list of villages otherwise somewhat localized in Minnesota.  It
seems something of a non sequitur.

This reminds me somewhat of the two "Santees," one the Dakotan Santees and
the other the southeastern group - Catawban, I assume.

JEK


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Mon Feb 11 13:03:49 2002
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 08:03:49 -0500
Subject: Ponca
In-Reply-To: <F73B91BED37FD5119F970008C7CF50FC084996DC@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.080349.0500.>

We recently saw a case in Illinois where -r- was written for /-h-/. Not
that this is relevant; just something more to remember.

Michael McCafferty

On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote:

>
> Ordinarily, when I see <ar> in older orthographic rendering of Indian names,
> I just assume it represents [a], as in "Arkansas" or "Harjo", Creek for
> 'brave'.  This is almost always true in the South, where post-vocalic R
> didn't have a phonetic value, but it was true of various other R-less
> English dialects too (Boston, NYC, etc.). It's true that sometimes it might
> be a diacritic for length, but I don't think it has to be.
>
> On the other hand, there were people who said "sofer" for sofa and Cuber for
> "Cuba", which, I suppose was a hypercorrection, although it may have been a
> geographic dialect pronunciation of word-final schwa.  Presumably they'd
> have said "Dakoter" too.
>
> As for "Ponca", there is really no regularly-occurring suffix or enclitic
> with a /dh/, the nearest thing to [r] in Ponca, that would explain the
> spellings.
>
> Bob
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan H. Hartley
> To: Siouan
> Sent: 2/10/02 11:40 AM
> Subject: Ponca
>
> Lewis & Clark frequently (but by no means always) write the name with
> [r] which I've usually taken to be a spelling indication of the length
> of the preceding [a]. But there are several cases in which it seems more
> than that, e.g., Ponceras, Poncaries.
>
> Does this ring a bell with anyone?
>
> Alan
>
>
>


Michael McCafferty
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

"Talking is often a torment for me, and I
need many days of silence to recover from the futility of words.
                                                       C.G. Jung

"...as a dog howls at the moon, I talk."
                                    Rumi


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Mon Feb 11 17:58:12 2002
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:58:12 -0000
Subject: Bruce Ingham's "Nominal and Verbal Status ..." (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.40.0201251512410.14908-100000@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.175812.0000.>

I'm glad people have found this interesting.  I haven't received my
copy of IJAL yet and am looking forward to seeing it.  One problem
that I found in working on the matter was that , waht we are often
told about the ablaut freezing when it becomes a noun doesn't
always seem to work.  As Connie mentions  wauNspekhiye he-ni-
chapi is "you are teachers". (-e ending in Buechel), has the -e
ending, where we might expect the -a ending.  One thing that I did
not mention in the article which I think is very important is that one
can use uN or hecha after these 'plain stems' which I think give
different meanings though difficult to translate:  wauNspekhiya
hemacha would I suppose mean 'I am a teacher, I am someone
who teaches as a permanent characteristic' while  wauNspekhiya
wauN would mean something like 'I am/was engaged in teaching'
(at a particular time).  The -ka ending in waoka 'marksman' etc I
have taken to be a nominalizer, since I don't think waoka could
occur with wa- or ma- ie wawaoka or wamaoka 'I am a marksman'.
I presume only waoka hemacha. Can anyone comment or give
other  examples.

Bruce

On 25 Jan 2002, at 15:13, Koontz John E wrote:

> Maybe a bit long ... :-).
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 00:19:41 +0300
> From: Constantine Chmielnicki <mosind at yahoo.com>
> To: John E Koontz <John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU>
> Subject: RE: Bruce Ingham's "Nominal and Verbal Status ..."
>
> If you find this fit for the Siouan list, forward it there.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>


Dr. Bruce Ingham
Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies
SOAS


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Mon Feb 11 18:04:51 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:04:51 -0600
Subject: MANDAN redux (was Re: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre)
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.120451.0600.>

Koontz John E wrote (ref. Mandal):

> It could also reflect Cree or Ojibway influence, since all three dialect
> continuums have considerable dialect variation in "r" forms (y, r, l, n,
> d, etc.).

Nope: no Cree or Ojibway l-dialects in that area/period.

Thanks for the insight into -aya- / -awa-.

Alan


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Mon Feb 11 18:17:39 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:17:39 -0600
Subject: Ponca
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.121739.0600.>

Rankin, Robert L wrote:

> Ordinarily, when I see <ar> in older orthographic rendering of Indian names,
> I just assume it represents [a], as in "Arkansas" or "Harjo", Creek for
> 'brave'.  This is almost always true in the South, where post-vocalic R
> didn't have a phonetic value, but it was true of various other R-less
> English dialects too (Boston, NYC, etc.). It's true that sometimes it might
> be a diacritic for length, but I don't think it has to be.

You're right: I imagine the -r was simply to insure a pron. as [a]
instead of [eI].

> As for "Ponca", there is really no regularly-occurring suffix or enclitic
> with a /dh/, the nearest thing to [r] in Ponca, that would explain the
> spellings.

It seems we're left with Chiwere as a source, assuming the L & C
spellings do represent a real [r].

Alan


From parksd at indiana.edu  Mon Feb 11 18:37:02 2002
From: parksd at indiana.edu (Parks, Douglas R.)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:37:02 -0500
Subject: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.133702.0500.>

John,

Before trying to identify the names below (and other Sioux band names), you
might take a look at Ray's article "The Sioux to 1850" in vol. 13 of the
Handbook of NA Indians.  These are identified there.

Doug

-----Original Message-----
From: Koontz John E
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Sent: 2/8/2002 12:16 AM
Subject: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre

I ran across a potato in:

Wedel, Mildred Mott.  1974.  LeSueur and the Dakota Sioux.  pp.
157-172,
Aspects of Upper Great Lakes Anthropology:  Papers in Honor of Lloyd A.
Wilford.  Ed. by Elden Johnson.  With a combined list of references. St.
Paul:  Minnesota Historical Society.

This article includes a list of early village (hence band) names, one of
which is Menostamenaton, glossed as Nation de la pomme de terre.  I
assume
Meno is mno and ton is thuN[waN] 'village, band'.  I can't figure out
stamena, though -na might be the diminutive.

Warning - these names are not always glossed correctly, and the spelling
may be mangled at either the hearing stage or some later transcriptional
stage, e.g., Yanktons comes out Hinhanetonsouanons, where one might
expect
Hi(n)hanctonouanons, for IhaNkthuNwaN=na 'little end-villagers'.  The
extra -s- may be a result of analyzing the form as Hinhanetons ouanons,
with a modifier (agreeing in number in French).

This latter was actually glossed 'village de la pierre separee des
autres', which I make 'stone village separated from the others'.  I
think
this refers to the gloss 'Stone Sioux' for Ojibwa Assiniboine (assini-
is
'stone' and boine is 'Sioux'), cf. Engish Stoney.

In this context, the 'separated from the others' is an early reference
(c.
1683) to the notion that the Yanktonais are a group of
Assiniboine/Stoney
Sioux who have separated from the rest and joined the Seven Council
Fires
grouping instead.

This is a kind of fun list, if anyone is interested in old band names,
which are often nice early sources of vocabulary, e.g., the very first
name in the list is Tangapsinton 'village de la Crosse', Perhaps
representing tham-kapsin-thuN[waN] or something like 'ball-playing
village', from thapa 'ball' + kapsic^a 'to make jump with a blow, as in
shinney' (or kapsiNta 'to whip'?) + thuN[waN] 'village, band'.  Williams
gives t[h]akapsic^api as 'lacrosse'.  Riggs has t[h]akapsic^a 'to play
ball by taking up the ball in the club and throwing it' and
t[h]akic^apsic^a 'a ball club'.  Perhaps kapsic^a 'throw with a stick'
is
a specialized meaning of 'make jump with a blow'.  It looks like the
t[h]a- in Santee is a reduction of thapa, corresponding in comparable
words to Teton thab-.  In this context, the -n- in Tan-gapsintons
becomes
interesting.  Rather than nasalization, it's probably a reflection of -m
in tham-, a Santee vesion of thab-.

A better known example of a disappearing -n is Teton, if it's based on
thiNta 'prairie'.  In that case ThithuNwaN has to be reduced from
thiNl-thuNwaN, pronounced [thiNn=thuNwaN].

Another of LeSueur's village names that I just figured out, because it
*is* glossed correctly, is Ouidaougecunaton 'nation de l'Isle pleine' or
'People of the full island'.  Ouida is clearly wita 'island', but
ougecuna
is somewhat obscure:  uz^kuna?  However, since oz^ula is Teton for
'full',
I suspect this is a misreading of ouge-ou-na.  So it really is
'full-island people'.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Feb 11 18:38:46 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:38:46 -0700
Subject: MANDAN redux (was Re: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre)
In-Reply-To: <3C6807C3.547CFAC9@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.113846.0700.>

On Mon, 11 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> Thanks for the insight into -aya- / -awa-.

If any Dakotanists disagree, they win, of course.  :-)  I'd heard
something of this in the past, and I've hard some examples of y-loss
between vowels in Teton texts that have been played for me, so I was
interested when I saw in your quotation that the Handbook specifically
pointed this out.  I suppose they (Goddard, Parks, DeMallie and
consultants?) were trying to connect the form with "Mandan" specifically.
I think I may have said something about the possibility of awa > aa,
perhaps not very clearly in our earlier discussion of this.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Feb 11 18:48:50 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:48:50 -0700
Subject: Nebraska (Re: Ponca)
In-Reply-To: <3C680AC3.39A15D9E@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.114850.0700.>

On Mon, 11 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> You're right: I imagine the -r was simply to insure a pron. as [a]
> instead of [eI].

This is one reason I think Nebraska may be an attempt to render IO n(~)iN
braske as ne-bras-ka, rather than OP niN bdhaska, which would have been
ne-blas-kar or maybe ne-bthas-kar.  Unfortunately the vaguaries of
recording r-like sounds and /a/ in English orthography make it difficult
to be sure.  The use of ne for n~iN or niN does suggest that an English
rendition of whichever form it was is in question.  Of course, the modern
pronunciation of the state name is a spelling-b ased pronunciation that
uses lax-e or an unstressed reduction to barred-i.


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Mon Feb 11 19:03:36 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:03:36 -0600
Subject: MANDAN redux (was Re: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre)
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.130336.0600.>

Koontz John E wrote:

> On Mon, 11 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> > Thanks for the insight into -aya- / -awa-.
>
> If any Dakotanists disagree, they win, of course.  :-)  I'd heard
> something of this in the past, and I've hard some examples of y-loss
> between vowels in Teton texts that have been played for me, so I was
> interested when I saw in your quotation that the Handbook specifically
> pointed this out.  I suppose they (Goddard, Parks, DeMallie and
> consultants?) were trying to connect the form with "Mandan" specifically.
> I think I may have said something about the possibility of awa > aa,
> perhaps not very clearly in our earlier discussion of this.

The Teton quot. was from Rood & Taylor's Sketch in vol. 17 (not 13) of
HNAI, and it had nothing directly to do with MANDAN.

Alan


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Feb 11 19:01:42 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:01:42 -0700
Subject: Bruce Ingham's "Nominal and Verbal Status ..." (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3C680634.28023.8B6682@localhost>
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.120142.0700.>

On Mon, 11 Feb 2002 bi1 at soas.ac.uk wrote:
> ... One thing that I did not mention in the article which I think is
> very important is that one can use uN or hecha after these 'plain
> stems' which I think give different meanings though difficult to
> translate:  wauNspekhiya hemacha would I suppose mean 'I am a teacher,
> I am someone who teaches as a permanent characteristic' while
> wauNspekhiya wauN would mean something like 'I am/was engaged in
> teaching' (at a particular time).

This sounds a bit like the Spanish ser vs. estar opposition, though I has
the impression that that is frozen for particular cases.  Is there
something similar in Russian involving cases oppositions?  It's been a
while!

> The -ka ending in waoka 'marksman' etc I have taken to be a
> nominalizer, since I don't think waoka could occur with wa- or ma- ie
> wawaoka or wamaoka 'I am a marksman'.  I presume only waoka hemacha.
> Can anyone comment or give other examples.

I can give diachronic examples of -ka as a nominalizer (and with stative
verbs), e.g., Da c^haNte' 'heart', OP naN'de 'heart' vs. Wi naNaNc^ge'
'heart', if I recall these properly.  I think Mandan also has the *ka in
this ans some other body part nouns.  A number of Winnebago animal terms
have *ka (as -ge/C__ ~ -k/V__).  In stative verbs, cf. Da thaN'ka, OP
ttaN'ga vs. frozen c^aN in compounds in Wi.  I suspect, however, you mean
other specifically Dakotan examples where -ka precludes inflection!

JEK


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Mon Feb 11 19:09:45 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:09:45 -0600
Subject: MANDAN redux (was Re: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre)
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.130945.0600.>

Koontz John E wrote:

> I think I may have said something about the possibility of awa > aa,
> perhaps not very clearly in our earlier discussion of this.

I believe you did. You might be amazed how much was written on MANDAN
last time around. I've assembled (in chronological order) material
abstracted from those emails into a text-file that I'd be happy to send
anyone that's interested.

Alan


From boris at terracom.net  Mon Feb 11 20:33:14 2002
From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:33:14 -0600
Subject: Ponca
In-Reply-To: <F73B91BED37FD5119F970008C7CF50FC084996DC@skylark.mail.ukan s.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.143314.0600.>

Now that we are on the subject of ethnonyms--what is the origin of the term
Minatari?

Thx
Alan K


From boris at terracom.net  Mon Feb 11 20:25:38 2002
From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:25:38 -0600
Subject: Ponca
In-Reply-To: <F73B91BED37FD5119F970008C7CF50FC084996DC@skylark.mail.ukan s.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.142538.0600.>

I always thought that r-loss in English was pre-consonantal and prepausal
and never intervocalic, leading to a contrast between fa:tha (from farther)
and fatha (from father) (excuse orthography, pls), and as I understood that
r-insertion was a hypercorrection (as h-insertion in Cockney) leading to
something as grating as Waursaur (as in the commercial) for Wausau.


At 04:44 PM 2/10/02 -0600, you wrote:
>
>Ordinarily, when I see <ar> in older orthographic rendering of Indian names,
>I just assume it represents [a], as in "Arkansas" or "Harjo", Creek for
>'brave'.  This is almost always true in the South, where post-vocalic R
>didn't have a phonetic value, but it was true of various other R-less
>English dialects too (Boston, NYC, etc.). It's true that sometimes it might
>be a diacritic for length, but I don't think it has to be.
>
>On the other hand, there were people who said "sofer" for sofa and Cuber for
>"Cuba", which, I suppose was a hypercorrection, although it may have been a
>geographic dialect pronunciation of word-final schwa.  Presumably they'd
>have said "Dakoter" too.
>
>As for "Ponca", there is really no regularly-occurring suffix or enclitic
>with a /dh/, the nearest thing to [r] in Ponca, that would explain the
>spellings.
>
>Bob
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Alan H. Hartley
>To: Siouan
>Sent: 2/10/02 11:40 AM
>Subject: Ponca
>
>Lewis & Clark frequently (but by no means always) write the name with
>[r] which I've usually taken to be a spelling indication of the length
>of the preceding [a]. But there are several cases in which it seems more
>than that, e.g., Ponceras, Poncaries.
>
>Does this ring a bell with anyone?
>
>Alan


From boris at terracom.net  Mon Feb 11 20:41:46 2002
From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:41:46 -0600
Subject: Ponca
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020211143139.00a8bd90@mail.terracom.net>
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.144146.0600.>

And just to muddy the waters a little (sorry, :)  ) there is also the
alternate form of the Caddoan Arikara---
Arikari.


Alan K


From rankin at ku.edu  Mon Feb 11 21:11:47 2002
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:11:47 -0600
Subject: Rees
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.151147.0600.>

 These are all issues that relate to American English dialects of the 18th
and 19th centuries, plus several idiosyncracies in naming habits.

In addition to R-loss syllable finally, and rhotacization of schwa
word-finally in some speech, there were also speakers who raised final schwa
to [I] or [i].  The local pronunciations of Missoura/Missoury,
Indiana/Indiany, Tulsa/Tulsy, Arizona/Arizony attest to this.  There were
many more.  It is possible that the Arikara/Arikaree doublet is the frozen
result of this change.  This particular sound change did not become part of
standard American English (whatever that is), but it is discussed in Edgar
Sturtevant's little book "Linguistic Change".  He discusses what he calls
"primary" phonetic change (=neogrammarian Lautgesetz) and "secondary"
phonetic change (=Labovian dialect borrowing) and the dialect phenomena are
among the latter as I recall.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Knutson
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Sent: 2/11/02 2:41 PM
Subject: RE: Ponca

And just to muddy the waters a little (sorry, :)  ) there is also the
alternate form of the Caddoan Arikara---
Arikari.


Alan K


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Mon Feb 11 23:51:46 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:51:46 -0600
Subject: Rees
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.175146.0600.>

Rankin, Robert L wrote:

> In addition to R-loss syllable finally, and rhotacization of schwa
> word-finally in some speech, there were also speakers who raised final schwa
> to [I] or [i].  The local pronunciations of Missoura/Missoury,
> Indiana/Indiany, Tulsa/Tulsy, Arizona/Arizony attest to this.  There were
> many more.  It is possible that the Arikara/Arikaree doublet is the frozen
> result of this change.

There's an abbreviated form (type REE) which is attested first in
French:

1797 J. TRUDEAU _Descr. haut Missouri_ in Mississippi Valley Hist.
Review VIII. (1921) 164
"Les aricaras, appel?s par abrig? les ris"

1804 (P. Gass) Jrnls. Lewis & Clark Exped. X. (1996) 51
"we passed a handsome bottom, where a band of Rees lived last winter."

And Wm. Clark has an early example of the full form in [i]:

1804 3 Aug. in Jrnls. Lewis & Clark Exped. II. (1986) 438
"the Panies & Recreries Speak the Same language"

1804 30 Sep. Jrnls. Lewis & Clark Exped. III. (1987) 129
"he..requested to come on bord and go up to the recorees"

Alan


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Tue Feb 12 00:06:06 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:06:06 -0600
Subject: Ponca
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.180606.0600.>

Alan Knutson wrote:
>
> Now that we are on the subject of ethnonyms--what is the origin of the term
> Minatari?

There's more in the archives of this listserv, but here's my stab at it:

Eng. < Mandan /wr?Ntari/ [min?Ntari], or directly from its etymon
Hidatsa /wir?ta:ri/ [min?ta:ri] 'crosses the water', i.e.,
'river-crossing'. The Eng. forms in w- and m- reflect the use in Hidatsa
of rapid and careful speech respectively.

Alan


From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu  Tue Feb 12 00:52:09 2002
From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:52:09 -0800
Subject: Rees
In-Reply-To: <3C685912.64425764@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.165209.0800.>

For whatever it's worth, when I did a little work with Arikara in 1959 and
1960, people on the Ft. Berthold Reservation always used the name Ree. I
had the impression they didn't even know the name Arikara, or at best it
was a name used by anthropologists. Similarly, they called the Hidatsas
Gros Ventres. Hidatsa was also at best an outsider's term. I don't know
how it is now, but I'm sure Doug Parks does.

Wally Chafe

> There's an abbreviated form (type REE) which is attested first in
> French:
>
> 1797 J. TRUDEAU _Descr. haut Missouri_ in Mississippi Valley Hist.
> Review VIII. (1921) 164
> "Les aricaras, appel?s par abrig? les ris"
>
> 1804 (P. Gass) Jrnls. Lewis & Clark Exped. X. (1996) 51
> "we passed a handsome bottom, where a band of Rees lived last winter."
>
> And Wm. Clark has an early example of the full form in [i]:
>
> 1804 3 Aug. in Jrnls. Lewis & Clark Exped. II. (1986) 438
> "the Panies & Recreries Speak the Same language"
>
> 1804 30 Sep. Jrnls. Lewis & Clark Exped. III. (1987) 129
> "he..requested to come on bord and go up to the recorees"
>
> Alan
>


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Tue Feb 12 03:44:20 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:44:20 -0600
Subject: Matthews on Siouan dialogue
Message-ID: <MON.11.FEB.2002.214420.0600.>

This passage is probably well known to Siouanists, but it is so
enlightening as to bear repeating:

1877 W. Matthews _Ethnog. & Philol. of the Hidatsa Indians_ 17-18

"To the philologist, it is an interesting fact that this trio of savage
clans, although now living in the same village, and having been
next-door neighbors to each other for more than a hundred years, on
terms of peace and intimacy, and to a great extent intermarried, speak,
nevertheless, totally distinct languages, which show no perceptible
inclination to coalesce. The Mandan and Grosventre (or Minnetaree)
languages are somewhat alike, and probably of a very distant common
origin; but no resemblance has yet been discovered between either of
these and the Arickaree ("Ricara"). Almost every member of each tribe
understands the languages of the other tribes, yet he speaks his own
most fluently; so it is not an uncommon thing to hear a dialogue carried
on in two languages, one person, for instance, questioning in Mandan,
and the other answering back in Grosventre, and vice versa. Many of them
understand the Dakota tongue, and use it as a means of
intercommunication, and all understand the sign-language... it is not
uncommon to find persons among them, some even under twenty years of
age, who can speak fluently four or five different languages."

Alan


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Tue Feb 12 13:58:42 2002
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:58:42 -0000
Subject: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre
In-Reply-To: <4F1C26C2EB4CD211BD2300805F657B5C0AF2C798@newjersey.exchange.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.12.FEB.2002.135842.0000.>

I have also seen Ouiidebatons or Hoebatons,  'Gens de la Riviere'
presumably WatpathuN also Songatskitons or Chongasketons
presumably ChuNkas^kathuN 'dwellers in the stockade'

Bruce
On 11 Feb 2002, at 13:37, Parks, Douglas R. wrote:

> John,
>
> Before trying to identify the names below (and other Sioux band names), you
> might take a look at Ray's article "The Sioux to 1850" in vol. 13 of the
> Handbook of NA Indians.  These are identified there.
>
> Doug
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Koontz John E
> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> Sent: 2/8/2002 12:16 AM
> Subject: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre
>
> I ran across a potato in:
>
> Wedel, Mildred Mott.  1974.  LeSueur and the Dakota Sioux.  pp.
> 157-172,
> Aspects of Upper Great Lakes Anthropology:  Papers in Honor of Lloyd A.
> Wilford.  Ed. by Elden Johnson.  With a combined list of references. St.
> Paul:  Minnesota Historical Society.
>
> This article includes a list of early village (hence band) names, one of
> which is Menostamenaton, glossed as Nation de la pomme de terre.  I
> assume
> Meno is mno and ton is thuN[waN] 'village, band'.  I can't figure out
> stamena, though -na might be the diminutive.
>
> Warning - these names are not always glossed correctly, and the spelling
> may be mangled at either the hearing stage or some later transcriptional
> stage, e.g., Yanktons comes out Hinhanetonsouanons, where one might
> expect
> Hi(n)hanctonouanons, for IhaNkthuNwaN=na 'little end-villagers'.  The
> extra -s- may be a result of analyzing the form as Hinhanetons ouanons,
> with a modifier (agreeing in number in French).
>
> This latter was actually glossed 'village de la pierre separee des
> autres', which I make 'stone village separated from the others'.  I
> think
> this refers to the gloss 'Stone Sioux' for Ojibwa Assiniboine (assini-
> is
> 'stone' and boine is 'Sioux'), cf. Engish Stoney.
>
> In this context, the 'separated from the others' is an early reference
> (c.
> 1683) to the notion that the Yanktonais are a group of
> Assiniboine/Stoney
> Sioux who have separated from the rest and joined the Seven Council
> Fires
> grouping instead.
>
> This is a kind of fun list, if anyone is interested in old band names,
> which are often nice early sources of vocabulary, e.g., the very first
> name in the list is Tangapsinton 'village de la Crosse', Perhaps
> representing tham-kapsin-thuN[waN] or something like 'ball-playing
> village', from thapa 'ball' + kapsic^a 'to make jump with a blow, as in
> shinney' (or kapsiNta 'to whip'?) + thuN[waN] 'village, band'.  Williams
> gives t[h]akapsic^api as 'lacrosse'.  Riggs has t[h]akapsic^a 'to play
> ball by taking up the ball in the club and throwing it' and
> t[h]akic^apsic^a 'a ball club'.  Perhaps kapsic^a 'throw with a stick'
> is
> a specialized meaning of 'make jump with a blow'.  It looks like the
> t[h]a- in Santee is a reduction of thapa, corresponding in comparable
> words to Teton thab-.  In this context, the -n- in Tan-gapsintons
> becomes
> interesting.  Rather than nasalization, it's probably a reflection of -m
> in tham-, a Santee vesion of thab-.
>
> A better known example of a disappearing -n is Teton, if it's based on
> thiNta 'prairie'.  In that case ThithuNwaN has to be reduced from
> thiNl-thuNwaN, pronounced [thiNn=thuNwaN].
>
> Another of LeSueur's village names that I just figured out, because it
> *is* glossed correctly, is Ouidaougecunaton 'nation de l'Isle pleine' or
> 'People of the full island'.  Ouida is clearly wita 'island', but
> ougecuna
> is somewhat obscure:  uz^kuna?  However, since oz^ula is Teton for
> 'full',
> I suspect this is a misreading of ouge-ou-na.  So it really is
> 'full-island people'.
>
> JEK


Dr. Bruce Ingham
Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies
SOAS


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Tue Feb 12 14:04:15 2002
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:04:15 -0000
Subject: Bruce Ingham's "Nominal and Verbal Status ..." (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.40.0202111150260.24868-100000@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.12.FEB.2002.140415.0000.>

Yes I was thinking of Lakota examples, but the comparative
examples are interesting.

Bruce

>
> > The -ka ending in waoka 'marksman' etc I have taken to be a
> > nominalizer, since I don't think waoka could occur with wa- or ma- ie
> > wawaoka or wamaoka 'I am a marksman'.  I presume only waoka hemacha.
> > Can anyone comment or give other examples.
>
> I can give diachronic examples of -ka as a nominalizer (and with stative
> verbs), e.g., Da c^haNte' 'heart', OP naN'de 'heart' vs. Wi naNaNc^ge'
> 'heart', if I recall these properly.  I think Mandan also has the *ka in
> this ans some other body part nouns.  A number of Winnebago animal terms
> have *ka (as -ge/C__ ~ -k/V__).  In stative verbs, cf. Da thaN'ka, OP
> ttaN'ga vs. frozen c^aN in compounds in Wi.  I suspect, however, you mean
> other specifically Dakotan examples where -ka precludes inflection!
>
> JEK
>


Dr. Bruce Ingham
Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies
SOAS


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Tue Feb 12 14:08:37 2002
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:08:37 -0000
Subject: Ponca
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020211080256.5510C-100000@ariel.ucs.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.12.FEB.2002.140837.0000.>

I notice in Lakota variation between -y-, -h- and - - in ithaanuNg,
ithayanuNg and ithahanung 'from both sides' , uNgnaheh^ci and
uNgnayehci 'nearly' and a few others like it.

Bruce
On 11 Feb 2002, at 8:03, Michael Mccafferty wrote:

> We recently saw a case in Illinois where -r- was written for /-h-/. Not
> that this is relevant; just something more to remember.
>
> Michael McCafferty
>
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
>
> >
> > Ordinarily, when I see <ar> in older orthographic rendering of Indian names,
> > I just assume it represents [a], as in "Arkansas" or "Harjo", Creek for
> > 'brave'.  This is almost always true in the South, where post-vocalic R
> > didn't have a phonetic value, but it was true of various other R-less
> > English dialects too (Boston, NYC, etc.). It's true that sometimes it might
> > be a diacritic for length, but I don't think it has to be.
> >
> > On the other hand, there were people who said "sofer" for sofa and Cuber for
> > "Cuba", which, I suppose was a hypercorrection, although it may have been a
> > geographic dialect pronunciation of word-final schwa.  Presumably they'd
> > have said "Dakoter" too.
> >
> > As for "Ponca", there is really no regularly-occurring suffix or enclitic
> > with a /dh/, the nearest thing to [r] in Ponca, that would explain the
> > spellings.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Alan H. Hartley
> > To: Siouan
> > Sent: 2/10/02 11:40 AM
> > Subject: Ponca
> >
> > Lewis & Clark frequently (but by no means always) write the name with
> > [r] which I've usually taken to be a spelling indication of the length
> > of the preceding [a]. But there are several cases in which it seems more
> > than that, e.g., Ponceras, Poncaries.
> >
> > Does this ring a bell with anyone?
> >
> > Alan
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Michael McCafferty
> 307 Memorial Hall
> Indiana University
> Bloomington, Indiana
> 47405
> mmccaffe at indiana.edu
>
> "Talking is often a torment for me, and I
> need many days of silence to recover from the futility of words.
>                                                        C.G. Jung
>
> "...as a dog howls at the moon, I talk."
>                                     Rumi
>
>
>


Dr. Bruce Ingham
Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies
SOAS


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Tue Feb 12 14:13:33 2002
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:13:33 -0000
Subject: Ponca
In-Reply-To: <F73B91BED37FD5119F970008C7CF50FC084996DC@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.12.FEB.2002.141333.0000.>

as an interesting doilaect aside in the area of Bristol (Bristow or
Bristoe in older writings) in Western England there is a
pronunciation which makes final -a into -ol. So India and China are
pronounced Indiol and Chinol.  There is a complicated joke about
three girls called Vera (Veral), Vena (Venal) and something
else, but I can't remember the details.

BruceOn 10 Feb 2002, at 16:44, Rankin, Robert L wrote:

>
> Ordinarily, when I see <ar> in older orthographic rendering of Indian names,
> I just assume it represents [a], as in "Arkansas" or "Harjo", Creek for
> 'brave'.  This is almost always true in the South, where post-vocalic R
> didn't have a phonetic value, but it was true of various other R-less
> English dialects too (Boston, NYC, etc.). It's true that sometimes it might
> be a diacritic for length, but I don't think it has to be.
>
> On the other hand, there were people who said "sofer" for sofa and Cuber for
> "Cuba", which, I suppose was a hypercorrection, although it may have been a
> geographic dialect pronunciation of word-final schwa.  Presumably they'd
> have said "Dakoter" too.
>
> As for "Ponca", there is really no regularly-occurring suffix or enclitic
> with a /dh/, the nearest thing to [r] in Ponca, that would explain the
> spellings.
>
> Bob
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan H. Hartley
> To: Siouan
> Sent: 2/10/02 11:40 AM
> Subject: Ponca
>
> Lewis & Clark frequently (but by no means always) write the name with
> [r] which I've usually taken to be a spelling indication of the length
> of the preceding [a]. But there are several cases in which it seems more
> than that, e.g., Ponceras, Poncaries.
>
> Does this ring a bell with anyone?
>
> Alan


Dr. Bruce Ingham
Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies
SOAS


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Tue Feb 12 14:58:45 2002
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:58:45 -0000
Subject: Siouanists, eat your heart out.
In-Reply-To: <3C5870F9.8B3116E6@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.12.FEB.2002.145845.0000.>

I always thought they were spelt 'should of' and 'might of' etc, but
then I also thought there was a verb 'to misle' with a past tense
'misled'.  I think I believed that well into my 30s.  Sic permutatent
linguae

Bruce

On 30 Jan 2002, at 16:17, Alan H. Hartley wrote:

> > This year's Oscar for Best Embedded Modal goes to an unidentified worker at
> > Disney World in Florida, who, when discussing dissatisfaction with worker
> > pay cuts, said, "It MIGHT'VE WOULD'VE quelled it a little if management had
> > taken a cut too,..."  Even I can't say that.
>
> "might could/would" is good southern, but this must just be Disney!


Dr. Bruce Ingham
Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies
SOAS


From rwd0002 at unt.edu  Tue Feb 12 19:00:12 2002
From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:00:12 -0600
Subject: Poncal
In-Reply-To: <3C69230D.1968.E4D7E3@localhost>
Message-ID: <TUE.12.FEB.2002.130012.0600.>

Quoting bi1 at soas.ac.uk:

> as an interesting doilaect aside in the area of Bristol (Bristow or
> Bristoe in older writings) in Western England there is a
> pronunciation which makes final -a into -ol. So India and China are
> pronounced Indiol and Chinol.  There is a complicated joke about
> three girls called Vera (Veral), Vena (Venal) and something
> else, but I can't remember the details.
>

Hi Bruce and all:

Willem de Reuse here. Peter Trudgill told us the story about the man from
Bristol with three daughters: Eva (Evil), Ida (Idle), and Norma (Normal).  But
there must be more than one version to this. There is a reference to this one
in J. C. Wells' Accents of English (1982:344).

Best,

Willem


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue Feb 12 19:40:33 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:40:33 -0700
Subject: Poncal
In-Reply-To: <3C69230D.1968.E4D7E3@localhost>
Message-ID: <TUE.12.FEB.2002.124033.0700.>

On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 bi1 at soas.ac.uk wrote:
> as an interesting doilaect aside in the area of Bristol (Bristow or
> Bristoe in older writings) in Western England there is a
> pronunciation which makes final -a into -ol. ...

The closest comparable thing I can think of in a Siouan language is the
variable nasalization of some final vowels in Mississippi Valley,
apparently in enclitics, and especially Dakotan.  I'm thinking of Dakotan
=xti : =xtiN, =ki : =kiN, and so on, though there is something similar
going across the family, since, as I recall Winnebago has the nasalized
variant of =xtiN and Omaha-Ponca doesn't, and there seems to be something
similar happening with the =s^(i(N)) that appears in various capacities
(negatives, emphatics, etc.).  I think there are some -a(N)  variables,
too, but I'm not recalling them.  This is one of those details that
comparativists have neglected, without actually sweeping it under the
carpet.

At the other end of the word, OP has variably recorded nasality in initial
i, e.g., i(N)khe(de/=) 'shoulder', i(N)s^ta 'eye', and so on.  I think
these i's might all be organic (as opposed to fosilized Poss3 *i-).  This
and the variable recording of final -a(N) in OP may be matters of hearing,
or, rather, of English influence on the orthographic intepretation of
vowel allophones, but I think there's something more involved with the
enclitics.


From napsha51 at aol.com  Tue Feb 12 21:45:19 2002
From: napsha51 at aol.com (napsha51 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:45:19 EST
Subject: Poncal
Message-ID: <TUE.12.FEB.2002.164519.EST.>

I found willem here, please write to me at
napsha51 at aol.com
violet catches miye,
tanyan ya-un he?


From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Feb 12 22:42:17 2002
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:42:17 -0600
Subject: Rees
Message-ID: <TUE.12.FEB.2002.164217.0600.>

>>From what Wally and Alan wrote, it appears as though Arikara went the same
direction as Missouri > Missoura, rather than a > i.

By the way, I'm getting more and more messages via the Siouan list (from
more than one person) that look like the following.  Maybe it's KU's server.

Bob

>This message uses a character set that is not supported by the Internet
Service.  To view the original message content,  open the attached
message. If the text doesn't display correctly, save the attachment to
disk, and then open it using a viewer that can display the original
character set. <<message.txt>>


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Tue Feb 12 23:02:24 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:02:24 -0600
Subject: Rees
Message-ID: <TUE.12.FEB.2002.170224.0600.>

"Rankin, Robert L" wrote:

> >From what Wally and Alan wrote, it appears as though Arikara went the same
> direction as Missouri > Missoura, rather than a > i.

A quick look through my quot.-file shows no example of type MISSOURA and
5 of the type MISSOURIA. All the rest are of the type MISSOURI.

Alan


From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Feb 12 23:28:36 2002
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:28:36 -0600
Subject: Rees
Message-ID: <TUE.12.FEB.2002.172836.0600.>

 The original, AFAIK, is the "emiss8rit-" name on the map attributed to
Marquette.

bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan H. Hartley
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Sent: 2/12/02 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: Rees

"Rankin, Robert L" wrote:

> >From what Wally and Alan wrote, it appears as though Arikara went the
same
> direction as Missouri > Missoura, rather than a > i.

A quick look through my quot.-file shows no example of type MISSOURA and
5 of the type MISSOURIA. All the rest are of the type MISSOURI.

Alan


From jggoodtracks at juno.com  Wed Feb 13 01:15:49 2002
From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 19:15:49 -0600
Subject: Poncal
Message-ID: <TUE.12.FEB.2002.191549.0600.>

On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:45:19 EST napsha51 at aol.com writes:
> I found willem here, please write to me at
> napsha51 at aol.com
> violet catches miye,
> tanyan ya-un he?


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Feb 13 13:00:08 2002
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:00:08 -0500
Subject: Rees
In-Reply-To: <F73B91BED37FD5119F970008C7CF50FC079F08AF@skylark.mail.ukans.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.13.FEB.2002.080008.0500.>

actually, that's <8emiss8rit>, an Illinois participle.

Michael


On Tue, 12 Feb 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote:

>  The original, AFAIK, is the "emiss8rit-" name on the map attributed to
> Marquette.
>
> bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan H. Hartley
> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> Sent: 2/12/02 5:02 PM
> Subject: Re: Rees
>
> "Rankin, Robert L" wrote:
>
> > >From what Wally and Alan wrote, it appears as though Arikara went the
> same
> > direction as Missouri > Missoura, rather than a > i.
>
> A quick look through my quot.-file shows no example of type MISSOURA and
> 5 of the type MISSOURIA. All the rest are of the type MISSOURI.
>
> Alan
>
>
>


Michael McCafferty
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

"Talking is often a torment for me, and I
need many days of silence to recover from the futility of words.
                                                       C.G. Jung

"...as a dog howls at the moon, I talk."
                                    Rumi


From pustet at babel.Colorado.EDU  Thu Feb 14 11:11:25 2002
From: pustet at babel.Colorado.EDU (regina pustet)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 04:11:25 -0700
Subject: Bruce Ingham's "Nominal and Verbal Status..."
Message-ID: <THU.14.FEB.2002.041125.0700.>

> > ... One thing that I did not mention in the article which I think is
> > very important is that one can use uN or hecha after these 'plain
> > stems' which I think give different meanings though difficult to
> > translate: wauNspekhiya hemacha would I suppose mean 'I am a teacher,
> > I am someone who teaches as a permanent characteristic' while
> > wauNspekhiya wauN would mean something like 'I am/was engaged in
> > teaching' (at a particular time).
>
>This sounds a bit like the Spanish ser vs. estar opposition,

Exactly. ser vs. estar implies a difference in permanence vs. transience,
but to my knowledge, compatibility with both copulas, in Spanish, is
largely, if not exclusively, limited to (semantic) adjectives only, and is
not observed with nouns. Lakhota wauNspekhiya in the above example is a
(semantic) noun, but I have a couple of nice examples from my fieldwork in
which presence vs. absence of hecha with adjectives implies precisely the
difference in permanence vs. transience John notes for Spanish ser vs.
estar:

hus^te			'(temporarily) lame'
hus^te hecha		'permanently lame'

ies^ni			'speechless, unable to speak for a while'
ies^ni hecha		'permanently mute'

ps^uNps^uN		'stiff, e.g. from cold or while sleeping, but not
			from arthritis'
ps^uNps^uN hecha	'stiff from arthritis'

h^miN			'to look misshapen, e.g. because a shoe does not fit
			and causes a strange way of walking'
h^miN hecha		'permanently misshapen'

Hi Violet, if you're still listening: these are your examples from ages
ago! Toniktuka he?

Regina


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Thu Feb 14 17:00:44 2002
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:00:44 -0000
Subject: Poncal
In-Reply-To: <1013540412.3c69663c3d0bb@eaglemail.unt.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.14.FEB.2002.170044.0000.>

Hi Willem
Yes that's the one.

I didn't realize it had got into print

Bruce

>
> Hi Bruce and all:
>
> Willem de Reuse here. Peter Trudgill told us the story about the man from
> Bristol with three daughters: Eva (Evil), Ida (Idle), and Norma (Normal).  But
> there must be more than one version to this. There is a reference to this one
> in J. C. Wells' Accents of English (1982:344).
>
> Best,
>
> Willem


Dr. Bruce Ingham
Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies
SOAS


From cqcq at compuserve.com  Thu Feb 14 18:06:27 2002
From: cqcq at compuserve.com (carolyn quintero)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:06:27 -0500
Subject: New address
Message-ID: <THU.14.FEB.2002.130627.0500.>

My email is now:
cqcqcq at pgtv.net

Thanks,
Carolyn Quintero


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Fri Feb 15 02:25:11 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:25:11 -0600
Subject: MANDAN redux (was Re: Dakota Band Names and Pomme de Terre)
Message-ID: <THU.14.FEB.2002.202511.0600.>

Koontz John E wrote:
>
> On Sat, 9 Feb 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> > Item no. 9. on the list of eastern Sioux village names of Le Sueur
> > (1699-1702) is Mantanton. The -ton is Sioux -thuN 'village', and the
> > balance appears identical to MANDAN. Le Sueur apparently glosses the
> > name (or describes the group) twice, as 'N[ation] de la Grosse Roche'
> > and as 'village d'un grand lac qui se decharge dans un petit'.

> I have a citation in my comments on the names recommending Hodge 1907-10:
> I, 819, which is The Handbook of American Indians North of Mexico.
>
> I think this is intended to render MdonthuN = Mdo't(e) + thuNwaN.  The
> word mdo'te appears in Riggs glossed 'the mouth or junction of one river
> with another (a name commonly applied to the country about Fort Snelling,
> or the mouth of the Saint Peters; also the name appropriated to the
> establisment of the Fur Company at the junction of the river, written
> Mendota); the outlet of a lake.  T. iyoh.loke."  I can't find the expected
> Teton cognate *blote in Buechel, but iyoxloke, cited by Riggs, does
> appear.  Williamson has under 'mouth', 'the mouth of the river, iyoxdoke,
> mdote', so it looks like Santee also has iyoxdoke cf. iyoxloke.

Interesting to note that the Hidatsa name for the Mandan is ar?xpakua
'at the confluence; toward the mouth of the creek' (HNAI 13.363).

Alan


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Fri Feb 15 02:36:11 2002
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:36:11 -0600
Subject: MANDAN redux
Message-ID: <THU.14.FEB.2002.203611.0600.>

"Alan H. Hartley" wrote, 9 Sep. 1999:

> De la V?rendrye, in his journal for 1738 (ibid. 297-8) says:
>
> "pour venir avec moy dans l'automne ? la Descouverte des mantannes que
> si deuant on apeloit ouachipouanne selon les monsony"
>
> The name may be Cree waciypwa:n, lit. 'mountain Sioux' (where
> pwa:n is the same element as in "Assiniboine").

I stand corrected by HNAI XIII.364 which makes it Ojibway wa:Si-pwa:n
'cave Sioux' [more accurately, perhaps, 'den Sioux' AH], with ref. to
the Mandans' earth-lodges.

Alan


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Feb 20 07:22:03 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 00:22:03 -0700
Subject: Evidentials of Inference
Message-ID: <WED.20.FEB.2002.002203.0700.>

In the current issue of IJAL:

James, Deborah and Clarke, Sandra.  2002.  The encoding of information
source in Algonquian:  evidentials in Cree/Montagnais/Naskapi.  IJAL
67.3:229-263.

p. 247

"It has been noted by a number of writers (e.g., Comrie 1976, Anderson
1986, Willet 1988, and Bybee, Perkins and Pagliuca 1994, and see the
articles in section I of Guentche'va 1996) that evidentials which signal
inference frequently derive historically from morphemes with present
perfect meaning.  Such a development has taken place, for example, in
Latvian, Albanian, Bulgarian, Turkish, Georgian, the Tibetan languages, a
number of Uralic languages, Inuktitut, Tucano, and Chinese Pidgin Russian
(Comrie 1976:110, Willett 1988:79, and Bybee, Perkins, and Pagliuca
1994:95).  It seems most likely that perfects develop into inferentials
via a "resultative" stage (Bybee, Perkins and Pagliuca 1994:96).  With
perfects, there can develop over time an increasing emphasis on the result
of the past action, that is, on the way in which that action is relevant
to the present.  This resulting state exists because of the past action.
In this shift of focus, the perceived resulting state can come to be
viewed as evidence on the basis of which the speaker draws an inference
about what the past action must have been which brought about the
resulting state.  Thus a marker of the perfect changes into an evidential
signaling inference.  This is one of the "universal paths of development"
posited by Bybee, Perkins and Pagliuca (1994:95-97)."

I (JEK) might add to this that any given point in this development the
data are going to represent a range of possibilities along
this progression, or at least some somewhat complex compromise between
successive "pure" cases.  This will be especially true if the data are due
to a variety of speakers of different ages and backgrounds, but I think
even a single speaker might be expected to produce a mixture of more or
less progressive or conservative uses, perhaps with special conditioning,
e.g., resultative use with an inferential reading for verbs of motion, to
make up a plausible sounding situation.

I'd have to add that I'm not positive there is any reason to regard the
Dhegiha inferential (evidentials) as old present perfects, in any
classical Indo-European sense.  But it might make sense to regard then as
old resultatives, e.g., 'it stands that/there is a pile of results which
someone X-ed', which becomes 'it stands that/there is a pile of results
such that someone must have X-ed'.  The positional sense of 'stand/be a
pile of' would be a secondary reading, perhaps, of the from earlier *ra-he
with some other reading.

JEK


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sat Feb 23 05:46:59 2002
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:46:59 -0700
Subject: PS *Wa:'te 'boat' (Re: additions to Woccon article)
In-Reply-To: <fd.1322acef.298da6c7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.22.FEB.2002.224659.0700.>

On Sat, 2 Feb 2002 BARudes at aol.com wrote:
> 2. Proto-Siouan *'wati 'boat, canoe' (Carter 1980:77) [John K. reports that
> the reconstruction in the Comparative Siouan Dictionary is *Wa:'te (?) 'boat']

Something we might want to keep in mind:

Catherine Callaghan.  More evidence for Yok-Utian:  a reanalysis of the
Dixon and Kroeber sets.  IJAL 67.3:313-345, p. 322, says Miss [Southern
Sierra Miwok] wo:te- 'boat' is a loanword from Spanish bote 'boat'.
However, the So. Sierra Miwok term is isolated, and the Siouan term is
widely distributed (Crow-Hidatsa, Mississippi Valley, Bioloxi-Ofo and
Woccon), albeit somewhat irregular.

I scanned all the sets out of curiosity, and came away with an impression
that if ever a language family looked distinctively non-Siouan, this was
it.  Not only were the forms reconstructed not resemblant, their canons of
form were entirely different.  I only noticed Proto-Miwok *mu:s,
Proto-Costanoan *mu(:)s. Proto-Utian (both the foregoing) *mu:s 'breast,
milk', cf. PS *a:si (Proto-Mississippi Valley *(Wa-)aze), and Proto-Sierra
Miwok *c^uku-, Proto-Wintun *suku 'dog', cf. PS *w[i (?)]s^uNke.  One
wonders about onomatopoeia in 'breast' terms with this form, and Callaghan
suggests that 'dog' terms are so widely borrowed in California as to be
difficult to assess in comparative contexts.

JEK