From rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu Mon Jun 3 17:57:50 2002 From: rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu (rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 12:57:50 -0500 Subject: SCALC 2002 Message-ID: I just wanted to say it was really nice meeting all you fine people at the SCALC conference. I had a wonderful time, and look forward to seeing you all again next year. Hopefully, everybody had a safe trip back. If we ever get up that way again, may I suggest getting lost on foot in the Badlands as a delightful early morning activity? Wandering a few gullies away from the boardwalk, sliding to the bottom of a ravine down a slope too steep to climb back up again, scrambling to the top of a nearby ridge, looking around to see no sign of the works of man in any direction, but only the weird, jagged landscape, and a single black hawk soaring overhead against a blue sky studded with white clouds tinted salmon in the early light of dawn-- this certainly qualifies as one of the magic moments of my life. Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Jun 3 18:34:24 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 12:34:24 -0600 Subject: SCALC 2002 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'll second the comment that it was great to see so many Siouanists (and one lone Caddoanist) again. Those of you who weren't there were missed and missed a great conference, hosted by Dick Carter, in pleasant surroundings. John Boyle picked great local restaurants and does as urbane a job of herding cats as any Siouanist ever has, dead or alive. I'm hoping we'll get a post on the venue for the next meeting soon. I am afraid that I managed to be absent when this was resolved. I think I may have been listening to long vowels in some very sing-songy Assiniboine at the time. I have several rumors and fragments of information, but I'm not sure they go together! On Mon, 3 Jun 2002 rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu wrote: > If we ever get up that way again, may I suggest getting lost on foot in the > Badlands as a delightful early morning activity? ... Uh, just out of curiosity, you're not still lost, right? In this age of wireless networks and Java-enabled cellphones, and given the diffidence of some scholarly pesonalities, it might be worth asking. Armik and I took a route home that he recommended that led us out through Hot Springs via Chadron and Scottsbluff (it IS a bluff!) through the Nebraska National Forest. The reports that this is an inside joke for something more like the Nebraska National Grasslands appear to be greatly exagerated. It's at least as forested as Colorado's Black Forest (no connection with the Bavarian one) and has some interesting chalk formations, especially at Crawfurd (sp?). We saw some fantastic lightning displays south of Harrison. Fortunately they stayed outside the car. One or two looked like wire trash baskets growing upward. I think this is old Oglala territory and I can see why they hung out here. It was also nice to see Spearfish Canyon again (twice), and full of Juneberry (Saskatoon?), right on the mark (1 June). Are the shad blowing anywhere? JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Jun 3 19:07:33 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 13:07:33 -0600 Subject: =(b)(i) in Dhegiha Message-ID: Since several people are interested in this issue, including some Dakotanists, I'll post an interesting development from the SACC this year. Incidentally, there is no official abbreviation for this very informal conference, but SACC = Siouan And Caddoan Conference, while SCALC is, I think Siouan and CAddoan (or Annual?) Linguistics Conference. At the meeting Linda Cumberland described a class of Assiniboine verbs which are characterized by embedding same subject complements that require =pi on the embedded clause verb in the present and =ktA in the past. The embedded verb has no pronominal prefix. These verbs include forms like 'want' and 'like to/don't like to'. I don't recall the precise list at the moment. I hope Linda will comment further when she has time, since she is looking for similar cases and suggestions of additional candidate verbs to look at. It occurred to me that this might explain two things about Dhegiha syntax that are a bit perplexing. 1) The future is embedded under a positional article, usually forms of dhiNkhe 'to sit' in the first and second persons, and forms of akha/ama in the third person. For example bdhe=tta miNkhe 'I will go'. 2) Third person singular proximates (not obviatives) are marked with *=pi (usually > =i in Omaha-Ponca, sometimes =bi, and usually > =p=a/e - adding male/female declarative particles - in Osage, sometimes =pi, etc.). This particle is homophonous with the plural marker used with inclusive, second, and third plurals. The first case might arise from a use of a construction comparable to the one Linda reports (but requiring pronominal prefixes) under superordinate positionals with the original sense 'I sit that I would ...', i.e., 'I would that ...', subsequently reinterpreted as a simple future. Note that the inflected suffixal future auxiliary in Crow and Hidatsa looks like a heavily reduced version of the Dhegiha futures, too, so this may be something that has happened several times, independently, and no doubt with different details, within Siouan. The second case might arise from a construction like 's/he says that s/he ...'. If the superordinate verb were one that tended to be zeroed for phonological or structural reasons, then the =(p)i might be left as the sole marking of this reportative sort of construction and I think it is not unreasonable to suppose that such a construction would be more proximate than the non-reportative, leading porentially to a contrast of =pi (proximate) vs. [zero] obviative. The obviative forms or the forms taken as obviative would also naturally occur in embedded contexts, which is definitely the distribution in Dhegiha as well. The verb 'to say' in Dhegiha has a complex allomorphy, but the third person stem, as in Chiwere and Winnebago is e (ablauts to a, e.g., a=i 'he says' in OP). Note that an additional vowel, albeit apparently varying with gender, does actually occur with =pi in Osage and, I think Kaw: =p=a/e (Kaw =b=e at least). In addition, as Rory Larson has pointed out, =bi tends to appear in reportative subordinate contexts in Omaha-Ponca, e.g., under 'think'. This might also explain the quotative =bi=am(a) as from =bi ab(i) REPORTED they-say. It's possible that the superordinate verb might be something like 'to be', as well, but that is also essentially *e in the third person. I think that this is an approach to explaining the Dhegiha future and proximate =pi that is well worth considering. It might also prove a fruitful way of looking at nominalizing =pi in Dakotan. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Jun 3 19:15:59 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 13:15:59 -0600 Subject: History of SACC/SCALC Message-ID: Does anyone have handy a list of the locations for SACC since its inception? JEK From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Jun 3 19:28:33 2002 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 12:28:33 -0700 Subject: andative Message-ID: Hello all... This doesn't have anything directly to do with Siouan, but I figured this was a good venue to ask this question. I just got the page proofs back of an article on Shawnee I'm publishing, where I used the term 'andative'. The editor of the journal is requesting that I either reconsider the term or add a footnote explaining it. (I guess he'd never seen the term before?) I'm using the term 'andative' to describe a preverb that Carl Voegelin consistently translated in his Shawnee texts as 'go and' or 'go do X' as in the following example: Hoowe "keh-pah-natonehaape wa-miiciyakwe". then | we (incl.) will go look for it | what we (incl.) will eat Then (she said) "let's go look for something to eat". (the andative preverb here is the /pah-/.) Now, this morpheme has no cognates I'm aware of elsewhere in Algonquian, so there's no ready-made term I can borrow for it. Moreover, I'm not aware of anything any linguist has ever called an andative in any other Algonquian language. I chose to call it 'andative' since I have a memory, at least 12 years old, of being told about something in, I think, Wintuan that was translated the same way. Now the question: does anyone out there have any opinions of their own about what an 'andative' is, or, alternately, is anyone aware of another name for a morpheme like this? If 'andative' is the right name for this, it would be very helpful if I could have a straightforward bibliographical reference discussing an andative used the same way as this in another language (it doesn't have to be Algonquian). thanks much, Dave Costa From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Mon Jun 3 19:46:41 2002 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 14:46:41 -0500 Subject: =(b)(i) in Dhegiha Message-ID: Definitely worth thinking about. Do we know what -(p/b)i was originally? It seems to do an awful lot of things in various languages. In these Assiniboine constructions it (and -kta) really look like an "infinitive" marker of some kind -- a complementizer? modality head? same-subject marker? In any case it introduces a clause with obligatory same subject and no person-marking. Not unlike -- dare I say it? -- "to" in English. If something like this (with deleted or bleached matrix verb) is the source of Omaha future and proximate forms, it seems just a little odd that we don't get the -(b)i and -ta on complements of verbs like "want" ... Not terribly odd, since it might have survived only in fossilized corners of the grammar, but still a tiny bit odd. If I remember correctly the pi vs. kta split in Linda's Assiniboine data was positive/negative (or realized/unrealized or some such), not present/past. Koontz John E cc: Sent by: Subject: =(b)(i) in Dhegiha owner-siouan at lists.c olorado.edu 06/03/02 02:07 PM Please respond to siouan Since several people are interested in this issue, including some Dakotanists, I'll post an interesting development from the SACC this year. Incidentally, there is no official abbreviation for this very informal conference, but SACC = Siouan And Caddoan Conference, while SCALC is, I think Siouan and CAddoan (or Annual?) Linguistics Conference. At the meeting Linda Cumberland described a class of Assiniboine verbs which are characterized by embedding same subject complements that require =pi on the embedded clause verb in the present and =ktA in the past. The embedded verb has no pronominal prefix. These verbs include forms like 'want' and 'like to/don't like to'. I don't recall the precise list at the moment. I hope Linda will comment further when she has time, since she is looking for similar cases and suggestions of additional candidate verbs to look at. It occurred to me that this might explain two things about Dhegiha syntax that are a bit perplexing. 1) The future is embedded under a positional article, usually forms of dhiNkhe 'to sit' in the first and second persons, and forms of akha/ama in the third person. For example bdhe=tta miNkhe 'I will go'. 2) Third person singular proximates (not obviatives) are marked with *=pi (usually > =i in Omaha-Ponca, sometimes =bi, and usually > =p=a/e - adding male/female declarative particles - in Osage, sometimes =pi, etc.). This particle is homophonous with the plural marker used with inclusive, second, and third plurals. The first case might arise from a use of a construction comparable to the one Linda reports (but requiring pronominal prefixes) under superordinate positionals with the original sense 'I sit that I would ...', i.e., 'I would that ...', subsequently reinterpreted as a simple future. Note that the inflected suffixal future auxiliary in Crow and Hidatsa looks like a heavily reduced version of the Dhegiha futures, too, so this may be something that has happened several times, independently, and no doubt with different details, within Siouan. The second case might arise from a construction like 's/he says that s/he ...'. If the superordinate verb were one that tended to be zeroed for phonological or structural reasons, then the =(p)i might be left as the sole marking of this reportative sort of construction and I think it is not unreasonable to suppose that such a construction would be more proximate than the non-reportative, leading porentially to a contrast of =pi (proximate) vs. [zero] obviative. The obviative forms or the forms taken as obviative would also naturally occur in embedded contexts, which is definitely the distribution in Dhegiha as well. The verb 'to say' in Dhegiha has a complex allomorphy, but the third person stem, as in Chiwere and Winnebago is e (ablauts to a, e.g., a=i 'he says' in OP). Note that an additional vowel, albeit apparently varying with gender, does actually occur with =pi in Osage and, I think Kaw: =p=a/e (Kaw =b=e at least). In addition, as Rory Larson has pointed out, =bi tends to appear in reportative subordinate contexts in Omaha-Ponca, e.g., under 'think'. This might also explain the quotative =bi=am(a) as from =bi ab(i) REPORTED they-say. It's possible that the superordinate verb might be something like 'to be', as well, but that is also essentially *e in the third person. I think that this is an approach to explaining the Dhegiha future and proximate =pi that is well worth considering. It might also prove a fruitful way of looking at nominalizing =pi in Dakotan. JEK From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon Jun 3 20:01:35 2002 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 14:01:35 -0600 Subject: =(b)(i) in Dakotan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi everyone, Sounds like I missed a terrific meeting. I'll try not to let that happen again, but it was certainly crucial to everyone else's happiness around here that I stay here for the weekend. The pi/kta discussion reminds me of something that I only vaguely remember, but which someone who works with Lakota in Canada, or Dakota, should tell us more about. In the relative clause construction in Sioux Valley, according to some 60's or 70's work by either Pat Shaw or Jack Chambers or Valerie Drummond or some combination thereof, the clauses were said to end in either -g (from ki) or -b (from pi); can anyone recall or find out what these marked? As for the -kta on embedded verbs, that's one more reminder (if we needed it) that that is NOT a future marker, but irrealis; if you "want" something from the past, you apparently didn't get it, so the embedded clause is an unreal statement. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From dvklinguist at hotmail.com Mon Jun 3 20:21:21 2002 From: dvklinguist at hotmail.com (David Kaufman) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 20:21:21 +0000 Subject: andative Message-ID: Hi David, >>From an etymological standpoint, I think your term is appropriate since this is from the Latin verb 'andare' meaning 'to walk' or 'go' showing that this morpheme is used in this 'going' or 'walking' sense. I don't think I've heard the term elsewhere, but then I'm just getting into Native American linguistics and most of my language studies have been related to European languages, so... Hope this might help. Dave Kaufman MA, Linguistics dvklinguist at hotmail.com >From: "David Costa" >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: andative >Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 12:28:33 -0700 > >Hello all... > >This doesn't have anything directly to do with Siouan, but I figured this >was a good venue to ask this question. > >I just got the page proofs back of an article on Shawnee I'm publishing, >where I used the term 'andative'. The editor of the journal is requesting >that I either reconsider the term or add a footnote explaining it. (I guess >he'd never seen the term before?) I'm using the term 'andative' to describe >a preverb that Carl Voegelin consistently translated in his Shawnee texts >as >'go and' or 'go do X' as in the following example: > >Hoowe "keh-pah-natonehaape wa-miiciyakwe". >then | we (incl.) will go look for it | what we (incl.) will eat >Then (she said) "let's go look for something to eat". > >(the andative preverb here is the /pah-/.) > >Now, this morpheme has no cognates I'm aware of elsewhere in Algonquian, so >there's no ready-made term I can borrow for it. Moreover, I'm not aware of >anything any linguist has ever called an andative in any other Algonquian >language. I chose to call it 'andative' since I have a memory, at least 12 >years old, of being told about something in, I think, Wintuan that was >translated the same way. > >Now the question: does anyone out there have any opinions of their own >about >what an 'andative' is, or, alternately, is anyone aware of another name for >a morpheme like this? If 'andative' is the right name for this, it would be >very helpful if I could have a straightforward bibliographical reference >discussing an andative used the same way as this in another language (it >doesn't have to be Algonquian). > >thanks much, > >Dave Costa > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Jun 3 20:26:19 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 14:26:19 -0600 Subject: andative In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, David Costa wrote: > I just got the page proofs back of an article on Shawnee I'm publishing, > where I used the term 'andative'. The editor of the journal is requesting > that I either reconsider the term or add a footnote explaining it. (I guess > he'd never seen the term before?) I'm using the term 'andative' to describe > a preverb that Carl Voegelin consistently translated in his Shawnee texts as > 'go and' or 'go do X' as in the following example: There are serial verb constructions in Mississippi Valley Siouan that mean '[some motion] and ...' but the scheme is restricted to motion verb + positional with senses like 'go and stand'. I don't recall the contexts of exx. like this in Omaha, and never knew them in Dakotan. Unfortunately, as far as I can recollect, these have no name. Maybe the publisher would prefer something more like Classical Latin, e.g., ambulative? Departitive? I think andative may seem sort of "barbarous," combining an Italian or Spanish root with Latinate morphology. Or is andare attested for Classical Latin? Verb tenses in Chadic languages that mean 'came and X' or 'come X-ing' are called ventives. This is sort of burned into my brain from an experience with Chadic in times past. Cases for motion away in nominal systems are called ablative or elative, too, for that matter. Siouanists, at least, have no hesitation about calling certain verbal constructions "dative." When the genius of the language is to do it with verbs, you tend to go and use nominal terminology with verbs. . From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Jun 3 21:21:36 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 15:21:36 -0600 Subject: =(b)(i) in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > Do we know what -(p/b)i was originally? The only function - I think - that has been commented upon in comparative studies has been plurality. All Siouan languages have one or more pluralizers used in about the same way, but *=pi is restricted to Mississippi Valley in that shape and any attempts to recognize it in pluralizers elsewhere are speculative. I've done some of that before, but I won't repeat it here. > ... In these Assiniboine constructions it (and -kta) really look like > an "infinitive" marker of some kind -- a complementizer? modality > head? same-subject marker? In any case it introduces a clause with > obligatory same subject and no person-marking. Not unlike -- dare I > say it? -- "to" in English. This is one reason I thought it might clarify the nominalizing =pi in Dakotan. > If something like this (with deleted or bleached matrix verb) is the source > of Omaha future and proximate forms, it seems just a little odd that we > don't get the -(b)i and -ta on complements of verbs like "want" ... Not > terribly odd, since it might have survived only in fossilized corners of > the grammar, but still a tiny bit odd. We do get =bi in the context of reported complements and other clauses. Off the top of my head, it occurs with e=...dh=e=gaN 'to think' and in egaN and kki clauses. And under quotative ama. Also under the the and khe evidentials, when followed by ama. These are admittedly all cases in which same-subject is generally not even a possibility, and the =bi acts more like a marker of indirect speech combined with - I think - proximateness. It did occur with 'want' in the Assiniboine data, but that seemed a bit of an outlier in the glosses, I think. In OP I'm not sure I've noticed much in the way of complementizers. Are there any? Usually both main verb and subordinate are both inflected and come in sequence. You might be able to argue that the first co-verb, gaN in OP ...gaN=...dha, was a complementizer, perhaps based on the gaN in things like e=gaN 'like that', though we know that this is actually a contraction of gi dative (?) and aN 'do'. > If I remember correctly the pi vs. kta split in Linda's Assiniboine data > was positive/negative (or realized/unrealized or some such), not > present/past. I'll have to check that. JEK From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Jun 3 21:37:14 2002 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 14:37:14 -0700 Subject: andative Message-ID: I should also point out that I searched for the word 'andative' on the web. Needless to say there were very few results, but one reference did come up: Mithun, Marianne. 1988. 'The Grammaticalization of Coordination.' In: Haiman, John, and Sandra Thompson. (eds.) Clause Combining in Grammar and Discourse. Amsterdam: John Benjamins. Apparently, in this article, Mithun uses the term 'andative' in regards to a construction found in Iroquois. I don't happen to own this book, can anyone out there shed any light on how she uses the term 'andative' in this article? thanks, Dave Costa From jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu Mon Jun 3 21:36:42 2002 From: jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu (John Boyle) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:36:42 -0500 Subject: History of SACC/SCALC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Does anyone have handy a list of the locations for SACC since its >inception? > >JEK Here is a list of all of the conferences except 1994 - does anyone know where that one was held? John Boyle ------ Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 1 - Boulder, CO, June, 1981 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 2 - Medora, ND, May, 1982 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 3 - Rapid City, SD, May, 1983 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 4 - University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, July, 1984 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 5 - Tulsa, OK (May 24, 1985) Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 6 - Wisconsin Rapids, WI, April 1986 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 7 - Boulder, CO., June 1987 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 8 - Billings, MT, June 1988 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 9 - Morley, Alberta, Canada, 1989 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 10 - (Held with the Mid-America Linguistics conference) Lawrence, KA. 1990 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 11 - Stillwater, OK, Autumn 1991 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 12 - University of Missouri, Columbia, MO, Autumn 1992 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 13 - (Held with the Mid-America Linguistics conference) Boulder, CO, Autumn 1993 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 14 - 1994 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 15 - (Held with the Linguistic Institute) Albuquerque, NM, July 1995 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 16 - Billings, MT, June, 1996 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 17 - Wayne State University, Wayne, NE, June, 1997 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 18 - Indiana University, Bloomington, June, 1998 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 19 - Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada (June 11-12, 1999) Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 20 - Anadarko, OK. June 2000 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 21 - University of Chicago, Chicago, IL. June 2001. Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 22 - Black Hills State University. Spearfish, South Dakota (May 31 - June 1, 2002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu Tue Jun 4 13:19:54 2002 From: rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu (rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:19:54 -0500 Subject: SCALC 2002 Message-ID: > On Mon, 3 Jun 2002 rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu wrote: >> If we ever get up that way again, may I suggest getting lost on foot in the >> Badlands as a delightful early morning activity? ... John: > Uh, just out of curiosity, you're not still lost, right? In this age of > wireless networks and Java-enabled cellphones, and given the diffidence of > some scholarly pesonalities, it might be worth asking. No, I'm safely back in Lincoln. I might be diffident, but I'm not that technologically enabled, and I probably wouldn't be feeling so poetic about the experience if I were still there. With the sun near the horizon direction was obvious, and it proved disappointingly easy to get out. I just climbed another slope, flipped over the top of a ridge, and fell out almost in front of my truck. Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Jun 4 13:38:14 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 07:38:14 -0600 Subject: listproc error (fwd) Message-ID: Posted for Armik Mirzayan: I would like to also re-iterate what John and Rory have already said. It was a wonderful meeting and it was fun seeing so many Siouanists again, and meeting others that I had not met before. I hope we all get to see each other again next year. > > If we ever get up that way again, may I suggest getting lost on foot in the > > Badlands as a delightful early morning activity? ... > I agree! Some of the hikes in the Badlands are really incredible, and you can also look to see what interesting fossils you can spot after a rainstorm, which typically washes a lot of mud down and exposes new material. > Armik and I took a route home that he recommended that led us out through > Hot Springs via Chadron and Scottsbluff (it IS a bluff!) through the > Nebraska National Forest. The reports that this is an inside joke for > something more like the Nebraska National Grasslands appear to be greatly > exagerated. It's at least as forested as Colorado's Black Forest (no > connection with the Bavarian one) and has some interesting chalk > formations, especially at Crawfurd (sp?). We saw some fantastic lightning > displays south of Harrison. Fortunately they stayed outside the car. > One or two looked like wire trash baskets growing upward. I think this is > old Oglala territory and I can see why they hung out here. > There is something magical about this part of Nebraska. All 3 times that I have been through this area I have experienced some amazing lightning works. It's a great place to go to if you like bluffs and forest and are really awed by watching incredible and sudden weather changes and cloud formations. Although John and I didn't get to go in, there are also the Agate Fossil beds just south of Harrison. -Armik From voorhis at westman.wave.ca Tue Jun 4 14:45:39 2002 From: voorhis at westman.wave.ca (voorhis at westman.wave.ca) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 09:45:39 -0500 Subject: =(b)(i) in Dakotan Message-ID: ROOD DAVID S wrote: > The pi/kta discussion reminds me of something that I only vaguely > remember, but which someone who works with Lakota in Canada, or Dakota, > should tell us more about. In the relative clause construction in Sioux > Valley, according to some 60's or 70's work by either Pat Shaw or Jack > Chambers or Valerie Drummond or some combination thereof, the clauses > were said to end in either -g (from ki) or -b (from pi); can anyone recall > or find out what these marked? -b is still plural. In relative clauses it is a contraction of pi g (from pi ki). Incidentally, around here ki is still kiN, with the nasal vowel, when people take the care not to reduce it to g. But saying kiN instead of g seems to be akin to pronouncing the English definite article like thee, instead of with schwa, even before consonants. pi kta~e contracts to pta~e. Paul Brandon MB, Canada From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Tue Jun 4 17:12:39 2002 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 10:12:39 -0700 Subject: andative In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Siouanists and David Costa, I found this discussion of the term andative very interesting. The Northern Iroquoian languages have a not uncommon suffix that means to go somewhere and do something, quite parallel to the meaning we get in English with go fishing, go bowling, etc. In my 1967 Seneca Morphology and Dictionary I called it the transient suffix, but wasn't happy with that. Later some of us called it the dislocative, but I didn't like that much either. Then, I believe at SSILA meetings, I heard other people using the term andative for quite the same meaning in other languages. I seem to remember Catherine Callaghan, among others, doing that, although I could be wrong. I started telling other Iroquoianists that we ought to be using that term because it was what everybody else was doing. Now I'm very surprised to hear that it isn't so familiar to others after all. Does that mean that Siouanists and Algonquianists are out of touch, or that I am? I'm wondering if I should apologize to other Iroquoianists for telling them this had become a standard term for this kind of meaning, which I believe is very common among the languages of the world. It's certainly a meaning that needs a name, I thought it had one, but should we all go back to start??? Wally Chafe From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Tue Jun 4 18:42:40 2002 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 13:42:40 -0500 Subject: History of SACC/SCALC Message-ID: No information on 1994 -- just a couple of picky compulsive-proofreader notes, in case this is going into some kind of permanent public record... 1. Kansas is KS, not KA 2. The institution in Wayne, NE is Wayne State College. Wayne State University is an entirely different institution, in Detroit. Here is a list of all of the conferences except 1994 - does anyone know where that one was held? John Boyle ------ Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 1 - Boulder, CO, June, 1981 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 2 - Medora, ND, May, 1982 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 3 - Rapid City, SD, May, 1983 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 4 - University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, July, 1984 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 5 - Tulsa, OK (May 24, 1985) Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 6 - Wisconsin Rapids, WI, April 1986 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 7 - Boulder, CO., June 1987 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 8 - Billings, MT, June 1988 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 9 - Morley, Alberta, Canada, 1989 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 10 - (Held with the Mid-America Linguistics conference) Lawrence, KA. 1990 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 11 - Stillwater, OK, Autumn 1991 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 12 - University of Missouri, Columbia, MO, Autumn 1992 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 13 - (Held with the Mid-America Linguistics conference) Boulder, CO, Autumn 1993 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 14 - 1994 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 15 - (Held with the Linguistic Institute) Albuquerque, NM, July 1995 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 16 - Billings, MT, June, 1996 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 17 - Wayne State University, Wayne, NE, June, 1997 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 18 - Indiana University, Bloomington, June, 1998 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 19 - Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada (June 11-12, 1999) Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 20 - Anadarko, OK. June 2000 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 21 - University of Chicago, Chicago, IL. June 2001. Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 22 - Black Hills State University. Spearfish, South Dakota (May 31 - June 1, 2002) From rankin at ku.edu Tue Jun 4 18:58:44 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 13:58:44 -0500 Subject: andative Message-ID: >Maybe the publisher would prefer something more like Classical Latin, e.g., ambulative? Departitive? I think andative may seem sort of "barbarous," combining an Italian or Spanish root with Latinate morphology. Or is andare attested for Classical Latin? Don't think it's attested in the classical language. Romanists have quibbled for decades about the etymology of SP andar, IT andare, trying to relate it to FR aller. It really doesn't relate phonologically. Ambulare is the putative source, but Robert Hall reconstructed amDare or the like, where D was the Greek upper case letter delta. Very creative, but not satisfying. The problem is getting from the l to the d -- the u drops out regularly. I don't have an answer for Wally's query -- Siouanists may indeed just be out of touch. Some term is needed. Does Uralic or NE Caucasian (i.e., language families with really, really extensive case systems) have a satisfactory term that Eurocentric editors would accept? Bob From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Tue Jun 4 19:19:36 2002 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 12:19:36 -0700 Subject: andative In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Please don't decide on ambulative. I started using that term in the 1960s for a Seneca suffix that means to do something while walking: he's singing while walking, etc. The meaning of the andative, or whatever, is that the event in question takes place only after going somewhere. It has more to do with the end point than the starting point, so departitive isn't so good. Wally > Maybe the publisher would prefer something more like Classical Latin, > e.g., ambulative? Departitive? I think andative may seem sort of > "barbarous," combining an Italian or Spanish root with Latinate > morphology. Or is andare attested for Classical Latin? From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Jun 4 19:37:28 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 13:37:28 -0600 Subject: Ks. not Ka. (was Re: History of SACC/SCALC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Jun 2002, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > 1. Kansas is KS, not KA Bob insists on Ks for Kaw, too, though these have always confused me. When I worked for the Postal Service years ago, I noticed people always had problems with NB (New Brunswick) for NE (braska), and Mich (Michoacan) for Michigan (Michoagan?). Now, thanks to the Internet, we have more confusing two letter abbreviations than you can shake a stick at. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Jun 4 20:28:17 2002 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 15:28:17 -0500 Subject: Ks. not Ka. (was Re: History of SACC/SCALC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes. My letters to the W.I. (West Indies) often go to Wisconsin and then return to me. Also, Oklahoma is OK but Indiana is IN. On Tue, 4 Jun 2002, Koontz John E wrote: > On Tue, 4 Jun 2002, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > > 1. Kansas is KS, not KA > > Bob insists on Ks for Kaw, too, though these have always confused me. > When I worked for the Postal Service years ago, I noticed people always > had problems with NB (New Brunswick) for NE (braska), and Mich (Michoacan) > for Michigan (Michoagan?). Now, thanks to the Internet, we have more > confusing two letter abbreviations than you can shake a stick at. > > > > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu "Talking is often a torment for me, and I need many days of silence to recover from the futility of words. C.G. Jung "...as a dog howls at the moon, I talk." Rumi From mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu Tue Jun 4 21:32:56 2002 From: mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Marianne Mithun) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 14:32:56 -0700 Subject: andative In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear David, I've seen the term 'andative' to mean 'go and ...' so much for so many languages that I'm quite surprised that the editor hasn't heard of it. It's probably that we all become the most familiar with the terms that cover the categories of languages we look at the most. This term sometimes has a counterpart 'come and ...' that is called a 'venitive'. If it would help to have an example to point to, I just pulled this off the shelf: Mithun, Marianne 2001. Actualization patterns in grammaticalization: from clause to locative morphology in Northern Iroquoian. _Actualization: Linguistic Change in Progress_. Henning Andersen, ed. 143-168. Amsterdam: John Benjamins. (There's an example on page 147m example (6)b.) Best, Marianne On Tue, 4 Jun 2002, David Costa wrote: > > Wally: > > Thanks for this informative response. I personally think 'andative' is > indeed a legitimate name for the Shawnee preverb I'm describing in my > article, but the editor of the volume seems not to have heard of the term > before, and wants me to provide some reference to prove that it's a real > term and that I'm using it the right way. Do you happen to know of a > published source on an Iroquoian language where this morpheme is actually > *called* an andative, and where it's stated that it means something like 'go > and do X' or 'go X'? > > thanks much, > > Dave Costa > > ---------- > >From: Wallace Chafe > >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > >Cc: mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu > >Subject: Re: andative > >Date: Tue, Jun 4, 2002, 10:12 am > > > > > Dear Siouanists and David Costa, > > > > I found this discussion of the term andative very interesting. The Northern > > Iroquoian languages have a not uncommon suffix that means to go somewhere > > and do something, quite parallel to the meaning we get in English with go > > fishing, go bowling, etc. In my 1967 Seneca Morphology and Dictionary I > > called it the transient suffix, but wasn't happy with that. Later some of us > > called it the dislocative, but I didn't like that much either. Then, I > > believe at SSILA meetings, I heard other people using the term andative for > > quite the same meaning in other languages. I seem to remember Catherine > > Callaghan, among others, doing that, although I could be wrong. I started > > telling other Iroquoianists that we ought to be using that term because it > > was what everybody else was doing. Now I'm very surprised to hear that it > > isn't so familiar to others after all. Does that mean that Siouanists and > > Algonquianists are out of touch, or that I am? I'm wondering if I should > > apologize to other Iroquoianists for telling them this had become a standard > > term for this kind of meaning, which I believe is very common among the > > languages of the world. It's certainly a meaning that needs a name, I > > thought it had one, but should we all go back to start??? > > > > Wally Chafe > > > > > From Zylogy at aol.com Tue Jun 4 22:10:59 2002 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 18:10:59 EDT Subject: andative Message-ID: To Wally: ambulative, hmmm... Yahgan has one, then: haina. Also ugulu flying, datu running (straight), tolli running (hither and yon), guleni diving, wonari swimming and lots more. Would be great to have nice Latinate terms for these. Are there other affixes like this in Iroquoian? Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu Tue Jun 4 22:21:47 2002 From: jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu (John Boyle) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 17:21:47 -0500 Subject: History of SACC/SCALC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Catherine, I just pulled the locations off of the Siouan Bibliography. Surly someone must have been at the 1994 conference. Now I'm really curious! John >No information on 1994 -- just a couple of picky compulsive-proofreader >notes, in case this is going into some kind of permanent public record... >1. Kansas is KS, not KA >2. The institution in Wayne, NE is Wayne State College. Wayne State >University is an entirely different institution, in Detroit. > > > > >Here is a list of all of the conferences except 1994 - does anyone know >where that one was held? > >John Boyle > >------ >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 1 - Boulder, CO, June, 1981 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 2 - Medora, ND, May, 1982 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 3 - Rapid City, SD, May, 1983 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 4 - University of Manitoba, >Winnipeg, July, 1984 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 5 - Tulsa, OK (May 24, 1985) > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 6 - Wisconsin Rapids, WI, April >1986 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 7 - Boulder, CO., June 1987 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 8 - Billings, MT, June 1988 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 9 - Morley, Alberta, Canada, 1989 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 10 - (Held with the Mid-America >Linguistics conference) Lawrence, KA. 1990 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 11 - Stillwater, OK, Autumn 1991 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 12 - University of Missouri, >Columbia, MO, Autumn 1992 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 13 - (Held with the Mid-America >Linguistics conference) Boulder, CO, Autumn 1993 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 14 - 1994 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 15 - (Held with the Linguistic >Institute) Albuquerque, NM, July 1995 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 16 - Billings, MT, June, 1996 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 17 - Wayne State University, Wayne, >NE, June, 1997 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 18 - Indiana University, >Bloomington, June, 1998 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 19 - Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada >(June 11-12, 1999) > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 20 - Anadarko, OK. June 2000 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 21 - University of Chicago, >Chicago, IL. June 2001. > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 22 - Black Hills State University. >Spearfish, South Dakota (May 31 - June 1, 2002) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Jun 5 00:56:00 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 18:56:00 -0600 Subject: History of SACC/SCALC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Jun 2002, John Boyle wrote: > I just pulled the locations off of the Siouan Bibliography. Surly > someone must have been at the 1994 conference. Now I'm really > curious! I'm fairly sure at this point that there was no 1994 SACC. I seem to remember this happening, in one of the intervals in which the scheduling of the meeting changed. In addition, though the evidence is negative, I notice that I have directories under the SACC directory on my hard drive for 1989 to 1999, less 1994. After that I started putting the directories in another location. It's possible that somebody else might havea recollection that would confirm this. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Jun 5 01:14:54 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:14:54 -0600 Subject: =(b)(i) in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > If I remember correctly the pi vs. kta split in Linda's Assiniboine data > was positive/negative (or realized/unrealized or some such), not > present/past. My apologies in advance to Linda in case I misrepresent anything. I now have the handout before me, though not the paper. The examples were: che'yaka 'should, must do' pi should be respected [Linda thought this example should be rejected.] c?iN'ka 'to want' pi want to go/know kta [didn't want to go (? written in by me and may be misconstrued)] don't want to take snokya 'to know' pi don't know how to do s^kaN' 'try to do' kta tried to fight even tried to sit beside thawuN'khas^iN 'hate to do' pi hates to move around pi hate to die was^te'naz 'like to do' pi like to eat waho'ya 'promise' kta promised to do wayu'phi 'be skilled at' pi don't know how to drive I've forgotten how Linda characterized this, but I think it must be something like pi for intention, and kta for completed/avoided JEK From dvklinguist at hotmail.com Wed Jun 5 05:33:16 2002 From: dvklinguist at hotmail.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 22:33:16 -0700 Subject: Oooops! Message-ID: Sorry--I have to back up on my statement about andare coming from Latin. I checked a Latin dictionary today and to my dismay and displeasure there was no "andare" at least not in Classical Latin. Which then leads one to wonder where It. andare, Sp. and Port. andar come from!? Eeeek! Perhaps it came about in the "vulgar" dialects somehow. Dave Kaufman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ullrich.j at soupvm.cz Wed Jun 5 14:19:51 2002 From: ullrich.j at soupvm.cz (Jan F. Ullrich) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:19:51 +0200 Subject: wakhan in nominal position In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Siouanists In the term WakhaN' ThaN'ka the adjectival stative verb wakhan (to be sacred/mysterious/supernatural/incomprehensible) stands in the nominal position and is followed by another adjectival stative verb (thaN'ka – to be big/large/great). I have been trying to figure out why the stative verb wakhaN' isn't nominalized here, e.g. with the wo- prefix, wo'wakhaN. Not being able to recall or find any other examples of such nominal use of stative verbs makes me wonder whether the term WakhaN' ThaN'ka was introduced by missionaries. Buechel used the term in his translation of bible into Lakhota (1939), but I do not know what Riggs used in his biblical translation into Dakhota (probably in second half of 18th century), because I haven't seen a copy of it. Interestingly the early missionaries among eastern Dakotan tribes (Riggs, Pond brothers) do not mention the term WakhaN' ThaN'ka. Instead Riggs informs us that the Dakhotas use Ta'ku WakhaN' (Something Sacred) for designation of deities (ta'ku = something). Beginning with the late 19 century records, WakhaN' ThaN'ka has been used both for Christian God as well as for the Supreme Deity of Lakhotas. Could it be that Riggs (or other missionary) created the term WakhaN' ThaN'ka as a translation for God, because he knew the word wakhaN to be the most sacral one? And without knowing the grammar well enough, he put it into nomilal position? And the term spread and became part of the sacral language and the Lakhotas even started using it for their own Supreme Deity? Or am I wrong and such constructions are found elsewhere in the language? If the assumption of missionary introduction is correct it would have to mean that the use of wakhaN' in nominal position has been accepted, because we can find analogies in WakhaN' Shi'ca and WakhaN' Washte'. I have been searching all available texts and material and besides WakhaN' ThaN'ka I found WakhaN' Shi'ca - !Bad Supernatural" and WakhaN' Washte' – "Good Supernatural" (both in a Red Clouds speech reprinted in DeMallie: Lakota Belief and Ritual, page 140). Big Turkey (in Lakota Tales and Texts) also uses WakhaN' Shi'ca. Of course Buechel's dictionary has both WakhaN' ThaN'ka and WakhaN' Shi'ca – the later being used for Devil. Can anyone help with this? Any hints from Dorsey's materials? He was a missionary as well, right? Any comparative possibilities? I know some of the other Siouan tribes use Wak(h?)aNda. Thanks for any help. Jan P.S.: does anyone know where to get a copy of Riggs's Bible in Dakhota? Jan Ullrich www.inext.cz/siouan --- Odchozí zpráva neobsahuje viry. Zkontrolováno antivirovým systémem AVG (http://www.grisoft.cz). Verze: 6.0.368 / Virová báze: 204 - datum vydání: 29.5.2002 From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Jun 5 14:48:39 2002 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 09:48:39 -0500 Subject: Oooops! Message-ID: According to J. Corominas, Sp. andar, It. andare, and Fr. aller (and Cat., Prov., dial. Rum. forms) are ultimately from Lat. ambulare. Alan From BARudes at aol.com Wed Jun 5 15:09:08 2002 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 11:09:08 EDT Subject: Oooops! Message-ID: Dave, Bob Rankin gave the history correctly in an earlier responses to RE: Andare. Andare is not attested for Classical or Vulgar Latin. Bob Hall proposed a reconstruction *amDlare (where D represents a Greek Delta -- an arbitrary symbol used to represent an uncertain sound) to account for It. andare, Sp. andar, Pt. andar, as well as Franco-Provencal and Provencal anar and French aller. He related *amDlare to Latin ambulare, assuming syncope of the second vowel and assimilation of mb to l. There are a number of problems with the reconstruction, among which are the fact that reflexes of purported *amDlare are attested only in Italo-Western Romance -- no cognate is found in Romanian, Dalmatian, Sardinian or even in Rheto-Romance (Western Romance) and some Italian dialects (Italo-Romance). Second, the cluster *mbl that supposedly resulted from the syncope of the second vowel of ambulare would have been a unique cluster in Proto-Romance, and thus its outcome would be unpredictable (which might explain the otherwise unique correspondene of Northern French /l/ to /n/ in the rest of Western Romance and Italian -- Bob Hall assumed that -mbl- > -mDl- > -ndl- > -nn- (Italo-Western except Northern French)/-ll- (Northern French). As Bob Rankin noted, *amDlare was not a very satisfactory reconstruction for Proto-Romance. Blair From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Jun 5 15:19:57 2002 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 10:19:57 -0500 Subject: Oooops! Message-ID: BARudes at aol.com wrote: > There are a number of problems with the > reconstruction, among which are the fact that reflexes of purported *amDlare > are attested only in Italo-Western Romance -- no cognate is found in > Romanian, Dalmatian, Sardinian or even in Rheto-Romance (Western Romance) and > some Italian dialects (Italo-Romance). Corominas cites dial. Rumanian îmnare and Rhaeto-Romanic amnad. Alan From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Jun 5 15:17:27 2002 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:17:27 +0100 Subject: Spearfish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Missing yo'all already Bruce Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Jun 5 15:59:30 2002 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 08:59:30 -0700 Subject: Andative: conclusion Message-ID: Hello all: Thanks for all the feedback. The impression I get from the various people who've emailed me is that despite the etymologically weird origins of the word 'andative' (I'm not even sure if the stress lands on the first or the second syllable, tho the 1st syllable sounds better to me), it IS a valid linguistic term, in established use at least among Americanists. The term is obviously rare, but it dates back at least 40+ years. In addition to the very helpful recent Iroquoian references I received, I've been informed that it appears in Freeland and Broadbent's 1960 "Central Sierra Miwok Dictionary with Texts". It might be a Penutian phenomenon in general, since it also pops up in Barker's 1963 grammar of Klamath, as well as that grad-school colleague of mine who used it for Patwin. That's good enough for me, so I'm keeping the term. thanks, Dave Costa From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Jun 5 16:23:00 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 10:23:00 -0600 Subject: Andative: conclusion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, David Costa wrote: > That's good enough for me, so I'm keeping the term. If reduplicated, is the form molto andante, piu barbarosa? Anyway, we can clearly make use of andative and ventitive in describing some of the patterns of motion verb compounds in Mississippi Valley Siouan. I think Allan Taylor is on record somewhere as saying that he thought that the term vertitive might be more properly versive in terms of Latin derivational morphology. Not that we need to "fix" it, but clearly there's precedent for neologistic Latinisms. Incidentally, the term vertitive was coined by Terry Kaufman and first taken up by Bob Hollow in his 1965 Mandan dictionary, and then by Taylor for Dakotan and other motion verbs (Taylor 1876:288). This may be where the comment on versive occurs, but I'm not sure. Incidentally, the term second dative was invented by Dorsey (see the notes in Dorsey 1885) and taken up by Boas and Deloria 1941. I think David Rood concluded that Allan Taylor is the one who first applied ablauting to Siouan final vowel alternations. I'm not sure where the oft reviled expression locative originates. I think "syncopating/ed" applied to the "irregular" or "second" conjugations may be my fault. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Jun 5 16:37:38 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 10:37:38 -0600 Subject: wakhan in nominal position In-Reply-To: <000001c20c9c$0f3ea370$1801a8c0@soupvm.cz> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, Jan F. Ullrich wrote: > In the term WakhaN' ThaN'ka the adjectival stative verb wakhan (to be > sacred/mysterious/supernatural/incomprehensible) stands in the nominal > position and is followed by another adjectival stative verb (thaN'ka � to be > big/large/great). This is very interesting detective work - a case of Siouan philology, in fact. > Any hints from Dorsey's materials? He was a missionary as well, right? > Any comparative possibilities? I know some of the other Siouan tribes use > Wak(h?)aNda. Omaha-Ponca has wakkaN'da, Osage wahkaN'ta, etc. The kk/hk set would correspond to Dakotan kh. A Dakota equivalent would be something like *wakhaNl- ~ wakhaN'ta. Dhegiha also has forms like OP wakkaN'dagi 'water monster' (or 'doctor' in some Dhegiha languages), which looks strangely like it has the Dakotan article added. I think that the Omaha Shell Society (and the Mide complex generally) may moderate some of this terminology, since it involves both a water monster and doctoring in its basis story. Both these terms are nominal in OP, and there are various other nouns with wa-prefixes, some from stative sources, like wasa'be 'black bear'. There is also a class of stative verbs in wa-, e.g., wa..khe'ga 'be sick' and wa..s^u's^e 'be brave, generous': aNwa(N)'s^us^e 'I am generous' (bad form to say), wadhi's^us^e 'you are generous', etc. Finally, there are at least some other anomalous compounds in OP, e.g., the name iNs^ta' maN'ze 'iron eye' (or 'glinting eye'?). The pattern here of modified noun + modifying noun (treated as a stative?) is different, but I've always thought that this, and maybe some other examples that slip my mind, suggest that there are still some mysteries to the syntax of (relatively) simple NPs in Siouan languages. JEK From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Wed Jun 5 16:58:57 2002 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 09:58:57 -0700 Subject: Andative: conclusion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: All this makes me feel a little better about andative, which is definitely accented on the first syllable. I did remember it as having been used with respect to Miwok, and it's good to be reminded of Sylvia Broadbent. I wonder if there's been a confusion of venitive (see Marianne's message) with vertitive. I remember quite clearly having discussions about the latter term with Terry Kaufman in Berkeley during the 1960s. We were both bothered by the fact that linguists sometimes used the term inchoative for the become meaning, as in it's getting cold etc. Inchoative seemed more appropriate for what's otherwise called the inceptive. It may well have been Terry who came up with vertitive as more appropriate for the become meaning, and it then received some currency in Berkeley at the time. In spite of that, Iroquoianists still consistently use inchoative for that meaning. Just an added bit of terminological history. Wally > Anyway, we can clearly make use of andative and ventitive in describing > some of the patterns of motion verb compounds in Mississippi Valley > Siouan. > > I think Allan Taylor is on record somewhere as saying that he thought that > the term vertitive might be more properly versive in terms of Latin > derivational morphology. Not that we need to "fix" it, but clearly > there's precedent for neologistic Latinisms. > > Incidentally, the term vertitive was coined by Terry Kaufman and first > taken up by Bob Hollow in his 1965 Mandan dictionary, and then by Taylor > for Dakotan and other motion verbs (Taylor 1876:288). This may be where > the comment on versive occurs, but I'm not sure. From dvklinguist at hotmail.com Wed Jun 5 17:06:00 2002 From: dvklinguist at hotmail.com (David Kaufman) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 17:06:00 +0000 Subject: Oooops! Message-ID: Blair, Thanks for the "andare" lesson. Interesting. It would be interesting perhaps to check some old Spanish/Portuguese/Italian texts and see what verb form they may have been using soon after the break-off from Classical Latin. A good project for me to do some time! Dave >From: BARudes at aol.com >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: Oooops! >Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 11:09:08 EDT > >Dave, > >Bob Rankin gave the history correctly in an earlier responses to RE: >Andare. >Andare is not attested for Classical or Vulgar Latin. Bob Hall proposed a >reconstruction *amDlare (where D represents a Greek Delta -- an arbitrary >symbol used to represent an uncertain sound) to account for It. andare, Sp. >andar, Pt. andar, as well as Franco-Provencal and Provencal anar and French >aller. He related *amDlare to Latin ambulare, assuming syncope of the >second >vowel and assimilation of mb to l. There are a number of problems with the >reconstruction, among which are the fact that reflexes of purported >*amDlare >are attested only in Italo-Western Romance -- no cognate is found in >Romanian, Dalmatian, Sardinian or even in Rheto-Romance (Western Romance) >and >some Italian dialects (Italo-Romance). Second, the cluster *mbl that >supposedly resulted from the syncope of the second vowel of ambulare would >have been a unique cluster in Proto-Romance, and thus its outcome would be >unpredictable (which might explain the otherwise unique correspondene of >Northern French /l/ to /n/ in the rest of Western Romance and Italian -- >Bob >Hall assumed that -mbl- > -mDl- > -ndl- > -nn- (Italo-Western except >Northern >French)/-ll- (Northern French). As Bob Rankin noted, *amDlare was not a >very >satisfactory reconstruction for Proto-Romance. > >Blair _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From BARudes at aol.com Wed Jun 5 17:06:13 2002 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 13:06:13 EDT Subject: Oooops! Message-ID: Alan, Most of my reference works on Romanian and Rheto-Romance are at my university office, whereas I am at home until Friday. I will give you a more detailed response then. Meanwhile, here is what the Dictionarul Explicativ al Limbii Roma^ne (Bucharest: Editura Academiei Republicii Socialiste Roma^nia, 1975) has to say on the subject of the Romanian forms: Page 993: Umbla, umblu, v. I. Intranz. I.1. A se deplasa dintr-un loc in altui (to move from one place to another); a merge (to go); ... [Var. : (inv. si pop. (learned and local) i^mbla vb. 1] - Lat. ambulare]. If I remember correctly, the dialectal form i^mnare (which by the way is a noun, not an infinitive since Latin infinitives became Romanian nouns (compare Romanian avere 'possessions' and French avoir 'have'); infinitives in Romanian are rare (normally found only after forms of the verb a putea 'be able' in the standard dialect) and lack the infinitive suffix of Latin (Proto-Romance)) is a regular, dialect internal development (assimilation), of umbla/i^mbla 'go, move' . Thus, the Romanian forms can be derived directly from ambulare without any intermediate Proto-Romance form *amDlare. I also believe (but will have to check) that there is some question about whether this verb was inherited directly from Proto-Romance or is a later (learned) addition to the language. I will get back to you on the Rheto-Romance forms. Blair From dvklinguist at hotmail.com Wed Jun 5 17:18:43 2002 From: dvklinguist at hotmail.com (David Kaufman) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 17:18:43 +0000 Subject: Oooops! Message-ID: Blair, Just out of curiosity, where can I get a copy of an all-Rumanian dictionary similar to what you have referenced (other than in Rumania!)? While I've studied Rumanian, as I have all the principal Romance languages, I don't have much practice with it, but I find having a dictionary completely in the foreign language is helpful for building vocabulary as well as for etymological reasons. Thanks, Dave K. >From: BARudes at aol.com >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: Oooops! >Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 13:06:13 EDT > >Alan, > >Most of my reference works on Romanian and Rheto-Romance are at my >university >office, whereas I am at home until Friday. I will give you a more detailed >response then. Meanwhile, here is what the Dictionarul Explicativ al >Limbii >Roma^ne (Bucharest: Editura Academiei Republicii Socialiste Roma^nia, 1975) >has to say on the subject of the Romanian forms: > >Page 993: Umbla, umblu, v. I. Intranz. I.1. A se deplasa dintr-un loc in >altui (to move from one place to another); a merge (to go); ... [Var. : >(inv. >si pop. (learned and local) i^mbla vb. 1] - Lat. ambulare]. > >If I remember correctly, the dialectal form i^mnare (which by the way is a >noun, not an infinitive since Latin infinitives became Romanian nouns >(compare Romanian avere 'possessions' and French avoir 'have'); infinitives >in Romanian are rare (normally found only after forms of the verb a putea >'be >able' in the standard dialect) and lack the infinitive suffix of Latin >(Proto-Romance)) is a regular, dialect internal development (assimilation), >of umbla/i^mbla 'go, move' . Thus, the Romanian forms can be derived >directly from ambulare without any intermediate Proto-Romance form >*amDlare. >I also believe (but will have to check) that there is some question about >whether this verb was inherited directly from Proto-Romance or is a later >(learned) addition to the language. > >I will get back to you on the Rheto-Romance forms. > >Blair _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From rankin at ku.edu Wed Jun 5 17:19:18 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:19:18 -0500 Subject: History of SACC/SCALC Message-ID: > I'm fairly sure at this point that there was no 1994 SACC. Hmmm, I don't recall there being any years in the '90's when we didn't have a conference. It's been pretty much every year, I think, since very early on. But I don't remember things by dates, I'm afraid. It's possible, but I surely don't recall any lapses. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Wed Jun 5 17:32:25 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:32:25 -0500 Subject: History of SACC/SCALC Message-ID: I stand corrected. I checked my vita and find that I had no SCALC paper listed for '94. I did, however, have a paper on "Quapaw Positionals" listed for MALC here in Lawrence that year. If we met at all, it would have been informally at the Oct. MALC that year. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Wed Jun 5 18:09:07 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 13:09:07 -0500 Subject: =(b)(i) in Dhegiha Message-ID: I found the full form, /-api/, as a quantifier -- i.e., a separate word -- at least twice in Deloria or Riggs' Dakota texts while writing my classifiers paper recently. I sent it to Sara, who'll know which set of texts it was in. It's also attested as a separate enclitic, /-api ~ -ape/, in La Flesche's Osage I think. I don't have the citations here with me, but the latter instances are laid out in my paper explaining "Ablaut" in Quapaw. So even within Mississippi Valley Siouan it's attested as an incompletely grammaticalized quantifier in addition to it's affixal pluralizer status. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Koontz John E [mailto:John.Koontz at colorado.edu] Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 4:22 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: =(b)(i) in Dhegiha On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > Do we know what -(p/b)i was originally? The only function - I think - that has been commented upon in comparative studies has been plurality. All Siouan languages have one or more pluralizers used in about the same way, but *=pi is restricted to Mississippi Valley in that shape and any attempts to recognize it in pluralizers elsewhere are speculative. I've done some of that before, but I won't repeat it here. > ... In these Assiniboine constructions it (and -kta) really look like > an "infinitive" marker of some kind -- a complementizer? modality > head? same-subject marker? In any case it introduces a clause with > obligatory same subject and no person-marking. Not unlike -- dare I > say it? -- "to" in English. This is one reason I thought it might clarify the nominalizing =pi in Dakotan. > If something like this (with deleted or bleached matrix verb) is the source > of Omaha future and proximate forms, it seems just a little odd that we > don't get the -(b)i and -ta on complements of verbs like "want" ... Not > terribly odd, since it might have survived only in fossilized corners of > the grammar, but still a tiny bit odd. We do get =bi in the context of reported complements and other clauses. Off the top of my head, it occurs with e=...dh=e=gaN 'to think' and in egaN and kki clauses. And under quotative ama. Also under the the and khe evidentials, when followed by ama. These are admittedly all cases in which same-subject is generally not even a possibility, and the =bi acts more like a marker of indirect speech combined with - I think - proximateness. It did occur with 'want' in the Assiniboine data, but that seemed a bit of an outlier in the glosses, I think. In OP I'm not sure I've noticed much in the way of complementizers. Are there any? Usually both main verb and subordinate are both inflected and come in sequence. You might be able to argue that the first co-verb, gaN in OP ...gaN=...dha, was a complementizer, perhaps based on the gaN in things like e=gaN 'like that', though we know that this is actually a contraction of gi dative (?) and aN 'do'. > If I remember correctly the pi vs. kta split in Linda's Assiniboine data > was positive/negative (or realized/unrealized or some such), not > present/past. I'll have to check that. JEK From rankin at ku.edu Wed Jun 5 18:31:28 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 13:31:28 -0500 Subject: Romance philology. Message-ID: It would probably be best for us to take our Romanistics off the Siouan list, I guess. The bottom line is, however, that there is no way one can take Latin 'ambulare' and make all the vowels, n's and l's and clusters come out regularly to derive andare, andar, amnar, anar, aner, aller, umbla and so forth. The result should be rather similar to 'fabulare' (Sp. hablar, Pt. falar), but with the added m. Doesn't happen. Like Blair, I'd want to confirm that Rm. umbla was actually inherited and not a product of Latinizing trends in recent times. The form cited by Corominas, imnare, actually looks to me to be a more likely popular development. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the dialect term despite 2 yrs there doing dialect phonology. I'm not doubting its existence though. BTW, I was an RA for Joan Corominas back in 1961-2 at Chicago, but I couldn't take the drudgery and dropped it. 8-) Bob -----Original Message----- From: BARudes at aol.com [mailto:BARudes at aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 12:06 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Oooops! Alan, Most of my reference works on Romanian and Rheto-Romance are at my university office, whereas I am at home until Friday. I will give you a more detailed response then. Meanwhile, here is what the Dictionarul Explicativ al Limbii Roma^ne (Bucharest: Editura Academiei Republicii Socialiste Roma^nia, 1975) has to say on the subject of the Romanian forms: Page 993: Umbla, umblu, v. I. Intranz. I.1. A se deplasa dintr-un loc in altui (to move from one place to another); a merge (to go); ... [Var. : (inv. si pop. (learned and local) i^mbla vb. 1] - Lat. ambulare]. If I remember correctly, the dialectal form i^mnare (which by the way is a noun, not an infinitive since Latin infinitives became Romanian nouns (compare Romanian avere 'possessions' and French avoir 'have'); infinitives in Romanian are rare (normally found only after forms of the verb a putea 'be able' in the standard dialect) and lack the infinitive suffix of Latin (Proto-Romance)) is a regular, dialect internal development (assimilation), of umbla/i^mbla 'go, move' . Thus, the Romanian forms can be derived directly from ambulare without any intermediate Proto-Romance form *amDlare. I also believe (but will have to check) that there is some question about whether this verb was inherited directly from Proto-Romance or is a later (learned) addition to the language. I will get back to you on the Rheto-Romance forms. Blair From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Jun 5 20:35:28 2002 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 13:35:28 -0700 Subject: History of SACC/SCALC Message-ID: Might not some old 1994 back issues of the SSILA bulletin clear this up? Dave ---------- >From: "Rankin, Robert L" >To: "'siouan at lists.colorado.edu'" >Subject: RE: History of SACC/SCALC >Date: Wed, Jun 5, 2002, 10:32 am > > > I stand corrected. I checked my vita and find that I had no SCALC paper > listed for '94. I did, however, have a paper on "Quapaw Positionals" listed > for MALC here in Lawrence that year. If we met at all, it would have been > informally at the Oct. MALC that year. > > Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Jun 5 21:02:51 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 15:02:51 -0600 Subject: History of SACC/SCALC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, David Costa wrote: > Might not some old 1994 back issues of the SSILA bulletin clear this up? Or perhaps the 1994 MALC Proceedings. JEK From shanwest at uvic.ca Wed Jun 5 21:29:49 2002 From: shanwest at uvic.ca (Shannon West) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 14:29:49 -0700 Subject: History of SACC/SCALC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I vaguely recall this. There was a contigent of U of Regina students prepared to go to this conference, and it was cancelled for some reason I don't recall. I think it was supposed to be in North Dakota or Montana. Shannon > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L > Sent: June 5, 2002 10:32 AM > To: 'siouan at lists.colorado.edu' > Subject: RE: History of SACC/SCALC > > > > I stand corrected. I checked my vita and find that I had no SCALC paper > listed for '94. I did, however, have a paper on "Quapaw > Positionals" listed > for MALC here in Lawrence that year. If we met at all, it would have been > informally at the Oct. MALC that year. > > Bob > > From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Wed Jun 5 21:32:40 2002 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:32:40 -0500 Subject: =(b)(i) in Dhegiha Message-ID: Yes, I just pulled out my copy of the handout too, and it's got a marginal scribble (note made while Linda was talking) "kta = irrealis". The kta examples are all negative except with matrix verbs "try" and "promise", but not all of the negative examples have kta, as John shows below. Tense/time appears to be irrelevant. So we were both wrong... ah, memory! Catherine Koontz John E cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: =(b)(i) in Dhegiha owner-siouan at lists.c olorado.edu 06/04/02 08:14 PM Please respond to siouan On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > If I remember correctly the pi vs. kta split in Linda's Assiniboine data > was positive/negative (or realized/unrealized or some such), not > present/past. My apologies in advance to Linda in case I misrepresent anything. I now have the handout before me, though not the paper. The examples were: che'yaka 'should, must do' pi should be respected [Linda thought this example should be rejected.] c?iN'ka 'to want' pi want to go/know kta [didn't want to go (? written in by me and may be misconstrued)] don't want to take snokya 'to know' pi don't know how to do s^kaN' 'try to do' kta tried to fight even tried to sit beside thawuN'khas^iN 'hate to do' pi hates to move around pi hate to die was^te'naz 'like to do' pi like to eat waho'ya 'promise' kta promised to do wayu'phi 'be skilled at' pi don't know how to drive I've forgotten how Linda characterized this, but I think it must be something like pi for intention, and kta for completed/avoided JEK From lcumberl at indiana.edu Wed Jun 5 23:27:19 2002 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (Linda A Cumberland) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 18:27:19 -0500 Subject: =(b)(i) in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just got back into town and checked e-mail. One quick correction to the following summary: -kta is "irrealis/hypothetical", not "past". More later. Conference was great! Linda > > At the meeting Linda Cumberland described a class of Assiniboine verbs > which are characterized by embedding same subject complements that require > =pi on the embedded clause verb in the present and =ktA in the past. From rankin at ku.edu Thu Jun 6 04:27:26 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 23:27:26 -0500 Subject: Siouan pluralizer. Message-ID: I'm home, have checked the references on the pluralizer and have some details and corrections to my note of this afternoon. Plural is noted in Dorsey's Quapaw notes as /-awe/, e.g., iNte 'ache' vs. /wa-Nte=awe/ 'we.pl ache' (stative pronominal). Carolyn's Osage data that I used in my Ablaut paper includes Osage /s^te/ 'you go' vs. /s^ta-ape/ 'you.pl go'. Dakota /apa/ 'some', see Riggs, Dakota Grammar, p. 87, line 2 for two different examples in the story "The Fallen Star". Grammaticalized /-Api/ 'plural' is presumably a doublet form of the independent word. The final vowel is difficult to determine, but it is probably /-i/ or /-e/. The problem is that it combines with the enclitics that follow it, including the feminine declarative /-e/ in Osage and Quapaw. Probable related forms include Hidatsa /a:pi/ 'with (a unity)', from Wes Jones and Crow /a':ppa:/ 'with', prob. from Randy. The proto-Mississippi Valley form is /*ape/ and proto-Siouan most likely the same. Sorry for the confusion this afternoon -- I was flying by the seat of my pants with no references. Irrealis */kte/ has the Biloxi cognate /te/ 'wish, want, sign of desire' in Dorsey and Swanton (1912), BAE-B-47. I suspect that's close to it's original meaning. I think there is a similar meaning in one of the northern languages. Great meeting!! Kudos to Dick for a great job! Bob From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Jun 6 12:06:55 2002 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 07:06:55 -0500 Subject: wakhan in nominal position In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If I'm not mistaken, there's has also been discussion in Algonquian realms as to whether "Kitchimanito" ('big spirit') was a precontact idea or came with the black robes. Michael McCafferty On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, Koontz John E wrote: > On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, Jan F. Ullrich wrote: > > In the term WakhaN' ThaN'ka the adjectival stative verb wakhan (to be > > sacred/mysterious/supernatural/incomprehensible) stands in the nominal > > position and is followed by another adjectival stative verb (thaN'ka � to be > > big/large/great). > > This is very interesting detective work - a case of Siouan philology, in > fact. > > > Any hints from Dorsey's materials? He was a missionary as well, right? > > Any comparative possibilities? I know some of the other Siouan tribes use > > Wak(h?)aNda. > > Omaha-Ponca has wakkaN'da, Osage wahkaN'ta, etc. The kk/hk set would > correspond to Dakotan kh. A Dakota equivalent would be something like > *wakhaNl- ~ wakhaN'ta. > > Dhegiha also has forms like OP wakkaN'dagi 'water monster' (or 'doctor' in > some Dhegiha languages), which looks strangely like it has the Dakotan > article added. I think that the Omaha Shell Society (and the Mide complex > generally) may moderate some of this terminology, since it involves both a > water monster and doctoring in its basis story. > > Both these terms are nominal in OP, and there are various other nouns with > wa-prefixes, some from stative sources, like wasa'be 'black bear'. There > is also a class of stative verbs in wa-, e.g., wa..khe'ga 'be sick' and > wa..s^u's^e 'be brave, generous': aNwa(N)'s^us^e 'I am generous' (bad > form to say), wadhi's^us^e 'you are generous', etc. > > Finally, there are at least some other anomalous compounds in OP, e.g., > the name iNs^ta' maN'ze 'iron eye' (or 'glinting eye'?). The pattern here > of modified noun + modifying noun (treated as a stative?) is different, > but I've always thought that this, and maybe some other examples that slip > my mind, suggest that there are still some mysteries to the syntax of > (relatively) simple NPs in Siouan languages. > > JEK > > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu "Talking is often a torment for me, and I need many days of silence to recover from the futility of words. C.G. Jung "...as a dog howls at the moon, I talk." Rumi From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Jun 6 12:19:26 2002 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 13:19:26 +0100 Subject: wakhan in nominal position In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This must be the origin of Lakota was^os^e 'brave warrior' whci I think Buechel glosses as 'an old word'. Bruce On 5 Jun 2002, at 10:37, Koontz John E wrote: There > is also a class of stative verbs in wa-, e.g., wa..khe'ga 'be sick' and > wa..s^u's^e 'be brave, generous': aNwa(N)'s^us^e 'I am generous' (bad > form to say), wadhi's^us^e 'you are generous', etc. > > > JEK > From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Jun 6 12:38:31 2002 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 13:38:31 +0100 Subject: wakhan in nominal position In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Although I'm not up on the theology of all this, an alternative word smetimes said to be an alternative of WakhaN ThaNka is Taku s^kaNs^kaN 'thing which moves' as in moves upon the water' perhaps. Another example of wakhaN as head of a clause is the Lakota word for 'electricity' or 'lightning' which is WakhaN gli mysterious thing which comes'. > If I'm not mistaken, there's has also been discussion in Algonquian realms > as to whether "Kitchimanito" ('big spirit') was a precontact idea or came > with the black robes. > > Michael McCafferty > On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, Koontz John E wrote: > > > On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, Jan F. Ullrich wrote: > > > In the term WakhaN' ThaN'ka the adjectival stative verb wakhan (to be > > > sacred/mysterious/supernatural/incomprehensible) stands in the nominal > > > position and is followed by another adjectival stative verb (thaN'ka – to be > > > big/large/great). > > > > This is very interesting detective work - a case of Siouan philology, in > > fact. > > > > > Any hints from Dorsey's materials? He was a missionary as well, right? > > > Any comparative possibilities? I know some of the other Siouan tribes use > > > Wak(h?)aNda. > > > > > > > > > JEK > > > > > > > > > Michael McCafferty > 307 Memorial Hall > Indiana University > Bloomington, Indiana > 47405 > mmccaffe at indiana.edu > > "Talking is often a torment for me, and I > need many days of silence to recover from the futility of words. > C.G. Jung > > "...as a dog howls at the moon, I talk." > Rumi > > > From ullrich.j at soupvm.cz Thu Jun 6 13:12:42 2002 From: ullrich.j at soupvm.cz (Jan F. Ullrich) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 15:12:42 +0200 Subject: wakhan in nominal position In-Reply-To: <3CFF65D7.2822.144D15B@localhost> Message-ID: Bruce Ingham wrote: > Although I'm not up on the theology of all this, an alternative word > smetimes said to be an alternative of WakhaN ThaNka is Taku > s^kaNs^kaN 'thing which moves' as in moves upon the water' > perhaps. Yes, Taku ShkaNShkan is relatively widely used in ceremonies today (especially in Yuwipi) and there are many records about its use in early 20th and the second half of 19th century. According to J.R.Walker's materials citing some of the 1900s elders Taku WakhaN was to designate all the visible/hearable natural phenomena, such as wind, Sun, lightning, thunder moon etc. Taku ShkaNshkaN is considered above these, because it is the ONE that makes everything move – shkaN. The elders told Walker "all we can see from it is the sky". They also told him that WakhaN ThaNka embraces all of these, it is the ONE that includes MANY. Most of Walkers informants were Christian converts, and even if they weren't we still do not know whether WakhaN ThaNka was a pre-contact concept/term or not. Many elders told me (and Violet Catches e-mailed a similar notion) that WakhaN ThaNka was not for everyday use, only for prayers and songs. In everyday language Taku Wakhan is used. But you won't hear Taku Wakhan on the reservation very often today. Instead Thunkashila is heard far most often. Interestingly, while we can find only Taku WakhaN and not WakhaN ThaNka in early missionary reports, today there are hundreds of ceremonial songs with WakhaN ThaNka, while there are really few with Taku WakhaN. > Another example of wakhaN as head of a clause is the > Lakota word for 'electricity' or 'lightning' which is WakhaN gli > mysterious thing which comes'. This is a "good shot". Why haven't I thought of this one? I probably always perceived this wakhaN adverbially ("it comes mysteriously"), it could have even been contracted from WakhaNyaN gli, but that's a guess. Jan --- Odchozí zpráva neobsahuje viry. Zkontrolováno antivirovým systémem AVG (http://www.grisoft.cz). Verze: 6.0.368 / Virová báze: 204 - datum vydání: 29.5.2002 From napsha51 at aol.com Thu Jun 6 13:42:32 2002 From: napsha51 at aol.com (napsha51 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 09:42:32 -0400 Subject: wakhan in nominal position Message-ID: taku shkanshkan is never an alternative word for God, it means all those moving/living things that are a part of taku wakxan or wakxan txanka. the two words hold a huge power, whether you use, taku wakxan or wakxan txanka, it has a feeling connected to it, when I use the word, taku shkanshkan with it, so I give tobacco for it From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Jun 6 14:51:31 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 08:51:31 -0600 Subject: wakhan in nominal position In-Reply-To: <3CFF615E.12511.1335975@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Jun 2002 bi1 at soas.ac.uk wrote: > This must be the origin of Lakota was^os^e 'brave warrior' whci I > think Buechel glosses as 'an old word'. Yes, this is at least a Mississippi Valley cognate set, and Dakota also has a descendent term, though I don't know, off hand, if it is inflected as a stative. The association with generosity is usually explained as lacking fear of poverty, which suggests that courage is the root concept, but there are various ways of conceptualizing associations of virtues like courage and generosity. From lcumberl at indiana.edu Thu Jun 6 16:09:24 2002 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (Linda A Cumberland) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 11:09:24 -0500 Subject: Reference: article on conjunction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's the reference I promised for the article on conjoining nominals: Linguistic Typology 4-1 (2000): Leon Stassen--AND-languages and WITH-languages Linda From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Thu Jun 6 17:54:46 2002 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 12:54:46 -0500 Subject: Reference: article on conjunction Message-ID: Thanks -- I'll look it up when we're in Illinois in a couple of weeks. Catherine Linda A Cumberland Sent by: cc: owner-siouan at lists.c Subject: Reference: article on conjunction olorado.edu 06/06/02 11:09 AM Please respond to siouan Here's the reference I promised for the article on conjoining nominals: Linguistic Typology 4-1 (2000): Leon Stassen--AND-languages and WITH-languages Linda From nancyh at linguist.umass.edu Fri Jun 7 16:47:56 2002 From: nancyh at linguist.umass.edu (Nancy E Hall) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 12:47:56 -0400 Subject: andative Message-ID: After reading the discussion on the word 'andative', I can't resist adding my two cents. As a phonologist who's not a specialist in a language family but does typological work that requires consulting literature on many families, it drives me nuts to open a grammar and immediately be buried in terms like 'andative'. Subfield-specific traditions of terminology become so detailed and obscure that they're a real barrier to comprehension by outsiders, and then so ingrained that no one bothers to explain them. And when they're based on classical languages, it becomes hard to even guess what some of the words mean. I appreciate it when authors coin an apt Anglo-Saxon term- something self-explanatory and easy to remember- instead of a new Latinate one. I suggest a filter on new technical terms: take a poll of 10 non-Siouanist linguist friends and if most can't guess a definition that's somewhere in the ballpark of what the word means, throw it out. The only thing to be said for classically-derived terminology is that it does tend to be uniform across languages. When I have to read an article in Russian I'm grateful they don't have their own word for 'svarabhakti'... Nancy From boris at terracom.net Fri Jun 7 16:59:13 2002 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 11:59:13 -0500 Subject: andative Message-ID: Sorry, but what follows are the following questions.... are you assuming only Anglo-Saxons might be reading these descriptions or that these categories (which is our nature to title or name) should only be accessible to Anglo-Saxons. So what would be useable (ie coming/going-verbal-mode (CGVM) :) Respectfully Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nancy E Hall" To: Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 11:47 AM Subject: andative > > After reading the discussion on the word 'andative', I can't > resist adding my two cents. As a phonologist who's not a specialist in a > language family but does typological work that requires consulting > literature on many families, it drives me nuts to open a grammar and > immediately be buried in terms like 'andative'. Subfield-specific > traditions of terminology become so detailed and obscure that they're a > real barrier to comprehension by outsiders, and then so ingrained that no > one bothers to explain them. And when they're based on classical > languages, it becomes hard to even guess what some of the words mean. > I appreciate it when authors coin an apt Anglo-Saxon term- > something self-explanatory and easy to remember- instead of a new Latinate > one. I suggest a filter on new technical terms: take a poll of 10 > non-Siouanist linguist friends and if most can't guess a definition that's > somewhere in the ballpark of what the word means, throw it out. > The only thing to be said for classically-derived terminology is > that it does tend to be uniform across languages. When I have to read an > article in Russian I'm grateful they don't have their own word for > 'svarabhakti'... > > Nancy > > From rankin at ku.edu Fri Jun 7 21:33:31 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 16:33:31 -0500 Subject: andative Message-ID: Personally, I'm particularly fond of "go-ative" and "come-ative", but I'm still searching desperately for a good translation of 'taco' and 'burrito'. For 'quesadilla' I've come up with "Mexican grilled cheese sandwich with stuff inside" but it seems a little klunky, don't you think? Bob From boris at terracom.net Fri Jun 7 22:16:31 2002 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 17:16:31 -0500 Subject: andative Message-ID: 'burrito' very small equine that honks but does not whinny. ;0 Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 4:33 PM Subject: RE: andative > > Personally, I'm particularly fond of "go-ative" and "come-ative", but I'm > still searching desperately for a good translation of 'taco' and 'burrito'. > For 'quesadilla' I've come up with "Mexican grilled cheese sandwich with > stuff inside" but it seems a little klunky, don't you think? > > Bob > From Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com Sat Jun 8 10:52:47 2002 From: Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com (Anthony Grant) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 11:52:47 +0100 Subject: andative Message-ID: Or: a small entity that, if constiotuted from subadequate ingredients, can make its consumer whinny before honking. ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Knutson To: Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 11:16 PM Subject: Re: andative > 'burrito' very small equine that honks but does not whinny. > > ;0 > > Alan > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rankin, Robert L" > To: > Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 4:33 PM > Subject: RE: andative > > > > > > Personally, I'm particularly fond of "go-ative" and "come-ative", but I'm > > still searching desperately for a good translation of 'taco' and > 'burrito'. > > For 'quesadilla' I've come up with "Mexican grilled cheese sandwich with > > stuff inside" but it seems a little klunky, don't you think? > > > > Bob > > > > From Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com Sat Jun 8 10:56:02 2002 From: Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com (Anthony Grant) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 11:56:02 +0100 Subject: Stoney Message-ID: Colleagues: can anyone point me to recent work on Stoney? I know the Parks and Demallie article, which is what sparked my curiosity. I'm especially interested in the effects of Cree on the language, and on the processes which have made Stoney progressively more distinct from Assiniboin(e). Cordially Anthony Grant -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sat Jun 8 15:04:49 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 10:04:49 -0500 Subject: andative Message-ID: I can't top that on a Saturday morning. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Anthony Grant To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: 6/8/02 5:52 AM Subject: Re: andative Or: a small entity that, if constituted from subadequate ingredients, can make its consumer whinny before honking. ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Knutson To: Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 11:16 PM Subject: Re: andative > 'burrito' very small equine that honks but does not whinny. > > ;0 > > Alan > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rankin, Robert L" > To: > Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 4:33 PM > Subject: RE: andative > > > > > > Personally, I'm particularly fond of "go-ative" and "come-ative", but I'm > > still searching desperately for a good translation of 'taco' and > 'burrito'. > > For 'quesadilla' I've come up with "Mexican grilled cheese sandwich with > > stuff inside" but it seems a little klunky, don't you think? > > > > Bob > > > > From voorhis at westman.wave.ca Sat Jun 8 15:27:48 2002 From: voorhis at westman.wave.ca (voorhis at westman.wave.ca) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 10:27:48 -0500 Subject: andative Message-ID: There is another tradition for the creation of grammatical terminology, the Semitic one. You take a sample root and run it through the complete paradigm (even if some of the forms never occur in the normal, spoken language), and each item in the paradigm of that root becomes the technical term for the corresponding item with any root. For verbs, it's usually a root meaning 'do' that is chosen. With such a system, the andative in Dakota, for example, could be called the "echuN ye", and a form like xtani bde 'I'm going to work' presents the echuN ye form of the verb xtani (and is also third person, incidentally, from the Semitic point of view). With this system, the terminology changes for each language, of course, though the system for deriving that terminology is consistent, so the problem Nancy Hall describes is still there. If we could agree that the terminology would always be in one particular language, we'd just be where we are now, with a general concensus that grammatical terms are Latin, though they are descriptive rather than examples from paradigms. Floyd Lounsbury once said to me, "Why do they call it the obviative? There's nothing obvious about it." Paul Nancy E Hall wrote: > ... it drives me nuts to open a grammar and > immediately be buried in terms like 'andative'. Subfield-specific > traditions of terminology become so detailed and obscure that they're a > real barrier to comprehension by outsiders ... And when they're based on classical > languages, it becomes hard to even guess what some of the words mean. > I appreciate it when authors coin an apt Anglo-Saxon term- > something self-explanatory and easy to remember- instead of a new Latinate one. > ... The only thing to be said for classically-derived terminology is > that it does tend to be uniform across languages. When I have to read an > article in Russian I'm grateful they don't have their own word for > 'svarabhakti'... Alan Knutson wrote: > ... So what would be useable (ie coming/going-verbal-mode ... "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: > Personally, I'm particularly fond of "go-ative" and "come-ative" ... From rankin at ku.edu Sat Jun 8 22:53:14 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 17:53:14 -0500 Subject: Dakotan 'wakhaN' Message-ID: The recent discussion of the lexical class of Dakota 'wakhaN' brought to mind a historical comment I recently made in a paper that Giulia Oliverio and I are publishing. It is possible that the nominal status of 'medicine' has affected the status of 'sacred, mysterious', ordinarily a stative verb. Is it also possible that the root of 'sacred' was just -hkaN and that the wa- nominalized it? Here, in any event are the two cognate sets. 'medicine' 'sacred' *PSI: *wáN:hka *wahkáN Dakotan: wakháN 'spirit, sacred' Chiwere: máNkhaN wakháN 'snake' Winneb: maN:káN wakáN 'snake' Omaha: maNkkáN wakkáNda 'sacred, god' Omaha: maNkkáN wakkáNdagi'water monster' Kansa: mokkáN wakkáNda 'holy, god' Osage: maNhkáN wahkáNta 'holy, god' Quapaw: makkáN wakkáNtta 'spirit, god' *OVS: *muNka 'snake' Biloxi: n-dé:si 'snake' Ofo: oNktéfi 'snake' Saponi "moka" 'snake' In 'medicine' and 'sacred' we have two semantically similar, but derivationally unrelated, roots which, quite by chance, differ only in nasalization and accent placement. Their superficial similarities appear to have led to a certain amount of mixing. The 'medicine' column is where this Ohio Valley Siouan set properly belongs phonologically, but it has undergone the semantic specialization, acquiring the meaning 'snake', that is typical of the 'sacred' set in particular geographical areas. 'Sacred' underwent an exactly parallel change in Winnebago, Chiwere and Omaha. Here it should be noted that the concepts 'God, sacred' and 'snake' were related in much of the prehistoric eastern and central U.S. Nevertheless, there is identical semantic specialization in all three OVS languages. Paul Voorhis provided comments on the areal nature of this phenomenon. Voorhis points to similar parallel conflation of 'snake' and 'deity' in Kickapoo. Shawnee maneto is similarly 'snake' (David Costa, personal communication). Here, as usual, Biloxi and Ofo lose initial labial resonants, while Virginia Siouan keeps them. The -(k)desi portion of the Biloxi and Ofo cognates means 'striped' or 'spotted' and has good cognates throughout Siouan. Bob From enichol4 at attbi.com Sun Jun 9 06:32:02 2002 From: enichol4 at attbi.com (Eric) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 01:32:02 -0500 Subject: andative Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 10:27 AM Subject: Re: andative > > Floyd Lounsbury once said to me, "Why do they call it the obviative? > There's nothing obvious about it." > > Paul > The Oxford English Dictionary points to Cuoq as the source of the term "obviative" as used in Algonquian linguistics, though in French it appeared as "obviatif". Cuoq seems to think of the phenomenon as a kind of "objective" case, but somehow not quite. The closest thing to a reason for the usage I've ever seen is in one of the documents Early Canadiana Online has posted. It's an 1875 publication of a lecture given by Archdeacon Hunter for the Institute of Rupert's Land in 1862, so it predates the earliest Cuoq reference cited in the OED. Hunter uses the term "Accessory, Relative or Possesive Case" for what has become known as the "Obviative". On page 10 he says 'In Cree there is no occasion for this repetition and all ambiguity is removed as to which third person is meant by the use of this Accessory Case. "And John looking upon Jesus as he walked" (John i. 36), is an ambiguous sentence in English, for it may mean either John walking or Jesus walking. To make it quite clear of ambiguity, we should have to put it thus: "And John looking upon Jesus as he (Jesus) walked," repeating, you observe, the third person. In Cree this difficulty is OBVIATED by using the accessory case.' (Emphasis is mine.) Here is the URL to the page: From Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com Sun Jun 9 13:36:24 2002 From: Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com (Anthony Grant) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 14:36:24 +0100 Subject: andative Message-ID: Dear Bob: Glad you liked the joke! Regarding wakhaN etc - didn't the Chctaws used to have a special take on the spirituality of rattlesnakes? Or am I misremembering something that Swanton wrote about circa 1922? If I have remembered it correctly, then it's a crosslinguistic areal culture feature. Regrads Anthony ----- Original Message ----- From: Rankin, Robert L To: Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 4:04 PM Subject: RE: andative > I can't top that on a Saturday morning. Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anthony Grant > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Sent: 6/8/02 5:52 AM > Subject: Re: andative > > Or: a small entity that, if constituted from subadequate ingredients, > can make its consumer whinny before honking. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Alan Knutson > To: > Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 11:16 PM > Subject: Re: andative > > > > 'burrito' very small equine that honks but does not whinny. > > > > ;0 > > > > Alan > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Rankin, Robert L" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 4:33 PM > > Subject: RE: andative > > > > > > > > > > Personally, I'm particularly fond of "go-ative" and "come-ative", > but > I'm > > > still searching desperately for a good translation of 'taco' and > > 'burrito'. > > > For 'quesadilla' I've come up with "Mexican grilled cheese sandwich > with > > > stuff inside" but it seems a little klunky, don't you think? > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon Jun 10 00:26:05 2002 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 18:26:05 -0600 Subject: History of SACC/SCALC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I suspect there was no 1994 meeting. We met in the early summer for many years, until Bob decided to try to host the meeting at Kansas, but for internal university reasons there he had to attach it to the MidAmerica meetings, which were in the fall. So from 1990-1993 (4 meetings) we met in the fall with other Mid-America meetings, then decided to switch back to summer again. But Oct 93 to summer 94 was deemed too short an interval for a viable meeting, so we skipped 94 and went to the Institute in 95. It is odd, however, that we seem to have managed to keep the units digit of our conference number (xth annual conference) the same as the units digit of the meeting year. Must be those of us who organized the Albuquerque meeting assigned a wrong number somehow. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From mary.marino at usask.ca Mon Jun 10 04:59:59 2002 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Mary Marino) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 23:59:59 -0500 Subject: SCALC 2002 Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I got back to Saskatoon on Friday, after a most enjoyable trip. Thanks to everyone who made the conference a success, especially Dick Carter. A great harvest of handouts; I am really looking forward to next year's meeting. Best regards, Mary From are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu Mon Jun 10 11:04:52 2002 From: are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu (Ardis R Eschenberg) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 07:04:52 -0400 Subject: Dakota wakhan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A little note on Omaha concerning this is that wakaNda is used for 'God' whereas xube is used for 'sacred' currently. I thought the wa- was a nominalizer in the above just as 'waxube' is used for holy things. BTW Really disappointed to have missed the conference. Sounds like it was wonderful. France wasn't too bad either. On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > The recent discussion of the lexical class of Dakota 'wakhaN' brought to > mind a historical comment I recently made in a paper that Giulia Oliverio > and I are publishing. It is possible that the nominal status of 'medicine' > has affected the status of 'sacred, mysterious', ordinarily a stative verb. > > > Is it also possible that the root of 'sacred' was just -hkaN and that the > wa- nominalized it? Here, in any event are the two cognate sets. > > 'medicine' 'sacred' > *PSI: *w�N:hka *wahk�N > Dakotan: wakh�N 'spirit, sacred' > Chiwere: m�NkhaN wakh�N 'snake' > Winneb: maN:k�N wak�N 'snake' > Omaha: maNkk�N wakk�Nda 'sacred, god' > Omaha: maNkk�N wakk�Ndagi'water monster' > Kansa: mokk�N wakk�Nda 'holy, god' > Osage: maNhk�N wahk�Nta 'holy, god' > Quapaw: makk�N wakk�Ntta 'spirit, god' > *OVS: *muNka 'snake' > Biloxi: n-d�:si 'snake' > Ofo: oNkt�fi 'snake' > Saponi "moka" 'snake' > > In 'medicine' and 'sacred' we have two semantically similar, but > derivationally unrelated, roots which, quite by chance, differ only in > nasalization and accent placement. Their superficial similarities appear to > have led to a certain amount of mixing. The 'medicine' column is where this > Ohio Valley Siouan set properly belongs phonologically, but it has undergone > the semantic specialization, acquiring the meaning 'snake', that is typical > of the 'sacred' set in particular geographical areas. > > 'Sacred' underwent an exactly parallel change in Winnebago, Chiwere and > Omaha. Here it should be noted that the concepts 'God, sacred' and 'snake' > were related in much of the prehistoric eastern and central U.S. > Nevertheless, there is identical semantic specialization in all three OVS > languages. > > Paul Voorhis provided comments on the areal nature of this phenomenon. > Voorhis points to similar parallel conflation of 'snake' and 'deity' in > Kickapoo. Shawnee maneto is similarly 'snake' (David Costa, personal > communication). > > Here, as usual, Biloxi and Ofo lose initial labial resonants, while Virginia > Siouan keeps them. The -(k)desi portion of the Biloxi and Ofo cognates > means 'striped' or 'spotted' and has good cognates throughout Siouan. > > Bob > > From rankin at ku.edu Mon Jun 10 14:31:02 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 09:31:02 -0500 Subject: Dakota wakhan Message-ID: I'm getting this "char. set" message again with some of John's and Ardis' postings. Bob -----Original Message----- This message uses a character set that is not supported by the Internet Service. To view the original message content, open the attached message. If the text doesn't display correctly, save the attachment to disk, and then open it using a viewer that can display the original character set. From jggoodtracks at juno.com Mon Jun 10 23:38:41 2002 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:38:41 -0500 Subject: Dakota wakhan Message-ID: It may be added to Bob's list below, that "WakaNda" (God) is also found in Ponca & Ioway/Otoe. In Winnebago (Hochank) it is rendered "WakaNja'" (Thunders/ Thunder Birds). The Winnebago retains an older meaning/ application of the word, which was apparent in IOM & Osage, et.al., as noted by LaFleshe, Osage Dictionary, pp.193-194. As such, when the term appears in an IOM Clan Name, it is best rendered as "thunder", e.g., WakandaKipa (Meets The Thunders). The WIN continue to use Ma^unna, (Earth Maker) for their original/ contemporary term for Diety. An 80+ Ioway elder, indicated without solicitation in 1980's that "Ma^un" (Creator/ Earth Maker) was ultilized along with "Wakanda", by the IOM, during his early years by elders. It is noted in M.Merril's IOM biblical texts of 1830's, he uses "Wakanda" exclusively. As noted below for Omaha, the IOM words for sacred/ mysterious is "xo�ita" or "xobrin". Both may take the "wa-" nominalizar when standing alone. jgt On Mon, 10 Jun 2002 07:04:52 -0400 (EDT) Ardis R Eschenberg writes: > A little note on Omaha concerning this is that wakaNda is used for > 'God' > whereas xube is used for 'sacred' currently. I thought the wa- was a > nominalizer in the above just as 'waxube' is used for holy things. > > BTW Really disappointed to have missed the conference. Sounds like > it was > wonderful. France wasn't too bad either. > > > > On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > > The recent discussion of the lexical class of Dakota 'wakhaN' > brought to > > mind a historical comment I recently made in a paper that Giulia > Oliverio > > and I are publishing. It is possible that the nominal status of > 'medicine' > > has affected the status of 'sacred, mysterious', ordinarily a > stative verb. > > > > > > Is it also possible that the root of 'sacred' was just -hkaN and > that the > > wa- nominalized it? Here, in any event are the two cognate sets. > > > > 'medicine' 'sacred' > > *PSI: *w�N:hka *wahk�N > > Dakotan: wakh�N 'spirit, > sacred' > > Chiwere: m�NkhaN wakh�N 'snake' > > > Winneb: maN:k�N wak�N 'snake' > > Omaha: maNkk�N wakk�Nda > 'sacred, god' > > Omaha: maNkk�N > wakk�Ndagi'water monster' > > Kansa: mokk�N wakk�Nda > 'holy, god' > > Osage: maNhk�N wahk�Nta > 'holy, god' > > Quapaw: makk�N wakk�Ntta > 'spirit, god' > > *OVS: *muNka 'snake' > > Biloxi: n-d�:si 'snake' > > Ofo: oNkt�fi 'snake' > > Saponi "moka" 'snake' > > > > In 'medicine' and 'sacred' we have two semantically similar, but > > derivationally unrelated, roots which, quite by chance, differ only in > > nasalization and accent placement. Their superficial similarities appear to > > have led to a certain amount of mixing. The 'medicine' column is where this > > Ohio Valley Siouan set properly belongs phonologically, but it has undergone > > the semantic specialization, acquiring the meaning 'snake', that is typical > > of the 'sacred' set in particular geographical areas. > > > > 'Sacred' underwent an exactly parallel change in Winnebago, Chiwere and > > Omaha. Here it should be noted that the concepts 'God, sacred' and 'snake' > > were related in much of the prehistoric eastern and central U.S. > > Nevertheless, there is identical semantic specialization in all three OVS > > languages. > > > > Paul Voorhis provided comments on the areal nature of this phenomenon. > > Voorhis points to similar parallel conflation of 'snake' and 'deity' in > > Kickapoo. Shawnee maneto is similarly 'snake' (David Costa, personal > > communication). > > > > Here, as usual, Biloxi and Ofo lose initial labial resonants, while Virginia > > Siouan keeps them. The -(k)desi portion of the Biloxi and Ofo cognates > > means 'striped' or 'spotted' and has good cognates throughout Siouan. > > > > Bob > > > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Jun 11 01:39:33 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 19:39:33 -0600 Subject: Dakota wakhan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I'm getting this "char. set" message again with some of John's and Ardis' > postings. > -----Original Message----- > > This message uses a character set that is not supported by the Internet > Service. To view the original message content, open the attached message. > If the text doesn't display correctly, save the attachment to disk, and then > open it using a viewer that can display the original character set. I've tried modifying my settings, but I think this message may be more or less unavoidable (at the sender's end). It basically says, on behalf of your mail program, "The sender was on a Unix system, and you are on a Windows system." I am using a Unix system, and I'll gues that Ardis is, or has set something in her mailer to select the default Unix character set. I am truly sorry if my being on a Unix system causes my letters to be handled as attachments by your mailer, as I know this is fairly awkward. You may be able to configure your mailer so this doesn't happen. There's not much I can do other than trying to figure out how to use Outlook Express from an off campus location. (I think that's actually possible.) JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Jun 11 02:06:28 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:06:28 -0600 Subject: Dakotan 'wakhaN' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote: Based on Jimm's observations, I wonder if it wouldn't be better to distinguish *wakhaN and *wakhaNta(ki). Maybe it would be worth considering *xop- forms, too, on the idea that this term is more used where *wa-hkaN has some sort of special status? Also, for some reason, Omaha-Ponca seems to have borrowed its term for 'rattlesnake' - s^(e)e'kki - from Miami-Illinois or something very similar. Unfortunately, I seem to have left David Costa's MI Dictionary in my other bookshelf, but I know the first two syllables were quite similar. I wonder if this might not be a form of name avoidance, or perhaps I should say antinominalism or something like that? The standard Siouan term for snake, OP w(e)e's?aN, is intact. I do tend to think that the root of *wahkaN is -hkaN, but if 'medicine' is *waNaN'hka, not *waNaN'hkaN, it could be from *waNaN'h-ka, with contamination from *wa-hkaN in Mississippi Valley. > Is it also possible that the root of 'sacred' was just -hkaN and that the > wa- nominalized it? Here, in any event are the two cognate sets. > > 'medicine' 'sacred' > *PSI: *w�N:hka *wahk�N > Dakotan: wakh�N 'spirit, sacred' > Chiwere: m�NkhaN wakh�N 'snake' > Winneb: maN:k�N wak�N 'snake' > Omaha: maNkk�N wakk�Nda 'sacred, god' > Omaha: maNkk�N wakk�Ndagi'water monster' > Kansa: mokk�N wakk�Nda 'holy, god' > Osage: maNhk�N wahk�Nta 'holy, god' > Quapaw: makk�N wakk�Ntta 'spirit, god' > *OVS: *muNka 'snake' > Biloxi: n-d�:si 'snake' > Ofo: oNkt�fi 'snake' > Saponi "moka" 'snake' Although my mailer doesn't cast any aspersions on Bob's mailer's choice of character set, I do see beta for a' and theta for e'. Actually the theta looks a lot like the Linear B character that I used to think of as the chocolate chip cookie. Of course, that's the fault of HyperTerminal and Windows, not Bob. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Jun 11 02:37:29 2002 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 19:37:29 -0700 Subject: rattlesnakes Message-ID: The Miami-Illinois name for the Massasauga (the smaller of the two species of rattlesnakes in that area) is /$iih$iikwia/ ($ = s-hacek). All the sister languages have cognates, like Ojibwe /zhiishiigwe/ & Shawnee /sihsiikwe/. But I don't think it's necessary to posit an Algonquian -> Omaha-Ponca loan here. /s^(e)e'kki/ and the Algonquian etymon are clearly onomatopoeic, and I wouldn't be at all surprised for the different languages to independently create names like that. Dave Costa > Also, for some reason, Omaha-Ponca seems to have borrowed its term for > 'rattlesnake' - s^(e)e'kki - from Miami-Illinois or something very > similar. Unfortunately, I seem to have left David Costa's MI Dictionary > in my other bookshelf, but I know the first two syllables were quite > similar. I wonder if this might not be a form of name avoidance, or > perhaps I should say antinominalism or something like that? The standard > Siouan term for snake, OP w(e)e's?aN, is intact. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Jun 11 05:54:34 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 23:54:34 -0600 Subject: andative (fwd) Message-ID: Looks like I misrouted this! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 18:31:53 -0600 (MDT) From: Koontz John E To: Nancy E Hall Subject: Re: andative On Fri, 7 Jun 2002, Nancy E Hall wrote: > After reading the discussion on the word 'andative', I can't > resist adding my two cents. As a phonologist who's not a specialist in a > language family but does typological work that requires consulting > literature on many families, it drives me nuts to open a grammar and > immediately be buried in terms like 'andative'. Subfield-specific > traditions of terminology become so detailed and obscure that they're a > real barrier to comprehension by outsiders, .. We could probably all do with a bit less terminology. It seems to me that the most obscure terms, however, arise not from any obscurantist tendency, but from attempts to devise a convenient terminology for dealing with an unfamiliar new structure, incommensurate with the details of other structures elsewhere. It can be fairly awkward trying to describe Siouan languages without the somewhat specialized terms we use - agent, patient, active, stative, vertitive, ablaut, instrumental (inner and outer), locative, dative, syncopating, etc. I've tried. All of these things are more or less unique bundles of behavior in Siouan languages, though some of them correspond roughly in functional terms to things elsewhere, and so, somewhat misleadingly, share their names. If these local usages are somewhat misleading or, in cases like Algonquian, downright overwhelming, there's still very little that can be done about it. A succinct, locally applicable terminology is essential to specialist discourse. Siouan instrumentals and locatives just happen to work a bit differently from similar things in other languages, and Algonquianists wouldn't get far without being able to refer to the elements of Algonquian morphosyntax as initials, medials, and finals. If none of these terms have any Anglo-Saxon equivalents, it's mainly because English follows the lead of the Romance languages in using classicizing compounds instead of contemporary native ones modelled on them. It's not uncommon for learned disciplines to use terminologies based on classical languages, and as a linguist I'm more or less willing to deal with it. I'm not even sure how to go about saying instrumental, for example, in Anglo-Saxon. A toolform? Of course, I suspect that Nancy really isn't bother by Latinity, but only by obscurity, and I apologize now for teasing her on this score. In a more serious vein, it strikes me as an advantage that the classical terminology in use is more or less constant across languages sharing the tradition. In a very real way it's this that saves us from Russian (or Anglo-Saxon) words for swarabhakti. On the other hand, we do definitely owe it to the non-Siouanists and future Siouanists, not to mention laymen speakers, to use standard terms wherever we can, and not promote arbitrary family-specific terms where they are not needed. I actually thought that this was David's point, and if I run into an andative now, I'll know what to call it. In addition, I think we can safely avoid specialized terms for infrequent and non-morphological patterns. So, if it's a fairly infrequent compound of 'go' and 'stand', even though it may be andative in some sense, I'm inclined just to call it a compound of 'go' and 'stand', reserving andative for productive morphological constructs as in the Shawnee case in question. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Jun 11 05:56:50 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 23:56:50 -0600 Subject: wakhan in nominal position (fwd) Message-ID: Something else I misrouted. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 09:07:11 -0600 (MDT) From: Koontz John E To: Jan F. Ullrich Subject: RE: wakhan in nominal position On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, Jan F. Ullrich wrote: > What about the stem of the wakkaN'da ..., can it be use as a separate > word, e.g. for modifying nouns? Not to my knowledge. The only other word I've encoutnered with the root -kkaNda is wakkaN'dagi. The one other instance of -kkaN in this sense (as opposed to 'vein, sinew, cord') is maNkkaN' 'medicine', e.g., x'ade maNkkaN' 'tea, lit. grass (or herb) medicine' or maNkkaN' sa'be 'coffee, lit. black medicine'. The usual stative verb for 'holy, sacred, mysterious' is xube. This has an awkward near homophone with 'inebriated'. I think there is an accent difference, but, to my chagrin, I forget which is which, and I avoid guessing in this case. I do recall that both forms have distinct cognate sets, so that they are actually only coincidentally similar. Xube is used in various other forms like waxu'be 'a sacred thing', or dhaxu'be 'to speak of as sacred', and so on. The root s^kaN is 'to move, to make an effort, to try'. I'm not aware of any sacred connections in Omaha-Ponca for that verb, though it does refer to a virtue, or pattern of good behavior, in Omaha and Pona culture. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Jun 11 06:50:42 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 00:50:42 -0600 Subject: rattlesnakes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, David Costa wrote: > The Miami-Illinois name for the Massasauga (the smaller of the two species > of rattlesnakes in that area) is /$iih$iikwia/ ($ = s-hacek). All the sister > languages have cognates, like Ojibwe /zhiishiigwe/ & Shawnee /sihsiikwe/. > But I don't think it's necessary to posit an Algonquian -> Omaha-Ponca loan > here. /s^(e)e'kki/ and the Algonquian etymon are clearly onomatopoeic, and I > wouldn't be at all surprised for the different languages to independently > create names like that. Is the Algonquian set essentially regular? I'd argue against onomatopoeia as the source of the Omaha-Ponca form. There are basically three reasons for this. First, C(V)V'CCV is a rather odd shape for a monomorphemic (root) stem in a MV Siouan language. (The (V)V' notation means I have my suspicions about vowel length in this case. I didn't use to think there was any, but it looks like there probably is and this a place where it's probably been missed, to wit, consider the accent.) Typical onomatopoeic verb roots and immitative words are monosyllables. There are exceptions, like maNgdhi'xta 'redwing' (from the male's territorial cry). Second, the sound of rattling in Siouan languages takes various forms, depending on the language, but this is not the form. I don't know the sounds attributed to rattlesnakes in most languages, but the usual Dakotan (Teton) root for 'rattle' is xla. In Omaha-Ponca the relevant root is sadhu. In effect, onomatopoeic forms can also show similarities among related languages, but differ between unrelated families, even when some degree of continuous reformation occurs. The Iroquoian terms for 'redwing' are all rather similar (not far from the okalee you find in Peterson's field guides), still bear a family resemblence that sets tem apart from the Omaha-Ponca form just cited. Similar patterns occur with other bird names of onomatopoeic origin. Third, onomatopoeic words get borrowed, too, and given the strong resemblenace among the Algonquian forms, and the more or less unique, oddball character of s^(e)e'kki in Omaha-Ponca, I think it likely this is a borrowing. However, it was the second and third syllables, not the first two, that got borrowed. Or, putting it another way, the reduplication and the animate suffix get removed. The animate suffix is also missing in 'bow' (in Winnebago and Ioway-Otoe). MI s^iihs^ii kwia PreOP *s^eekku OP s^eekki *u > i (via u") is regular in OP In the Dorsey texts s^(e)e'kki "Ce'ki" only appears as a personal name, glossed s^e'kki. The texts actually call rattlesnakes w(e)e's?aN. Swetland/Stabler give sadhu', no doubt following Fletcher & LaFlesche, who do, too. It appears that I got the gloss 'rattlesnake' from LaFlesche's Osage Dictionary. I'll have to assume that she'k.i there represents /s^e'kku"/. JEK From rankin at ku.edu Tue Jun 11 15:43:44 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:43:44 -0500 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Message-ID: I guess we'd best go back to the 26 letters of the English alphabet plus the usual diacritics like ~ (tilde) and ^ (circumflex) for our net Siouan. It occurs to me that our European readers may not display $ as a dollar sign but rather as a Euro sign, pound sign or some other currency. I guess I'll go back to using ' for accent also. > The Miami-Illinois name for the Massasauga (the smaller of the two species of rattlesnakes in that area) is /$iih$iikwia/ ($ = s-hacek). For what it's worth, s^ekki looks like a loan to me too. Kansa we'c?a s^ekku' (where u is u-umlaut). but Quapaw we's?a-xti 'snake+intensifier' "real snake". Bob From rankin at ku.edu Tue Jun 11 16:08:46 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:08:46 -0500 Subject: Dakota wakhan Message-ID: Jimm Good Tracks writes: >It may be added to Bob's list below, that "WakaNda" (God) is also found in Ponca & Ioway/Otoe. In Winnebago (Hochank) it is rendered "WakaNja'" (Thunders/ Thunder Birds). The Winnebago retains an older meaning/ application of the word, which was apparent in IOM & Osage, et.al., as noted by LaFleshe, Osage Dictionary, pp.193-194. As such, when the term appears in an IOM Clan Name, it is best rendered as "thunder", e.g., WakandaKipa (Meets The Thunders). All Dhegiha dialects have a version of *wahkaNta as a noun, but do any of these languages also have a reflex of *wahkaN, the verb? If not, it is quite possible that Dhegiha underwent the same change as OVS and Ioway-Otoe and that we's?a has replaced it. We see here the usual progression of derived replacement forms by which the older FORM takes on the newer MEANING and a newer, derived form takes the old meaning. 'Dog' and 'horse' are a good parallel. Bob From lcumberl at indiana.edu Tue Jun 11 16:37:13 2002 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (Linda A Cumberland) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:37:13 -0500 Subject: andative Message-ID: I forwarded one of the early messeges in this series to Bob Botne in the Linguistics dept. here at IU, who works extensively with "come" and "go" in African languages and got these responses (and permission to share them with you). He also gave me an excellent reference on the subject: Wilkins, David P. and Debora Hill. "When 'go' means 'come': Questioning the basicness of basic motion verbs" In Cognitive Linguistics 6-2/3(1995), 209-259. 1. "I can answer the question that was raised about the andative. It was coined by Bernd Heine and his group in Cologne in their work on grammaticalization and African languages. I've used it with the languages I work on as well. It comes from Italian andare 'walk, go'. Thilo Schadeberg, a Latinate Bantu scholar, despises the term since it's not based on Latin. He coined the term itive for the same thing, from the Latin verb for 'go'. Both of these are the counterpart of the ventive (or venitive for some people) 'come'. Bob" 2. "As for the origins of andative, I need to qualify what I said from home. The earliest attested source that I have at hand for "andative" is Lictenberk's 1991 article in Language 67, "Semantic change and heterosemy". Bernd Heine, I believe, coined the term, but I can't find a published use of it before 1993 in Conceptual Shift: A Lexicon of Grammaticalization Terms (Afrikanistische Arbeitspapiere 34/35). It has been used for quite awhile in African linguistics. I do have a reference to Mithun (1988) who may have used the term with respect to Iroquois: Mithun, Marianne. 1988. The Grammaticalization of Coordination. In: Haiman, John, and Sandra Thompson. (eds.) Clause Combining in Grammar and Discourse Bob" From boris at terracom.net Tue Jun 11 18:27:44 2002 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:27:44 -0500 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Message-ID: Available on any "Windows" machine are additional characters, these are typed by pressing the 'alt' key and a sequence of numbers: ie. alt0138 S alt0154 s alt0227 ã alt0240 ð alt0230 æ alt0241 ñ many more are available, this is just a sample. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:43 AM Subject: RE: symbol sets and rattlesnake. > > I guess we'd best go back to the 26 letters of the English alphabet plus the > usual diacritics like ~ (tilde) and ^ (circumflex) for our net Siouan. It > occurs to me that our European readers may not display $ as a dollar sign > but rather as a Euro sign, pound sign or some other currency. I guess I'll > go back to using ' for accent also. > > > The Miami-Illinois name for the Massasauga (the smaller of the two > species of rattlesnakes in that area) is /$iih$iikwia/ ($ = s-hacek). > > For what it's worth, s^ekki looks like a loan to me too. > > Kansa we'c?a s^ekku' (where u is u-umlaut). > > but Quapaw we's?a-xti 'snake+intensifier' "real snake". > > Bob > From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Tue Jun 11 18:46:47 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:46:47 -0500 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Message-ID: Unfortunately, alt0138 gives nothing at all, nor do any of the other combinations, on my HP laptop. So these codes don't work on my Windows ME machine, either in Outlook Express or in Word. Carolyn Q. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Knutson" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:27 PM Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Available on any "Windows" machine are additional characters, these are typed by pressing the 'alt' key and a sequence of numbers: ie. alt0138 S alt0154 s alt0227 � alt0240 � alt0230 � alt0241 � many more are available, this is just a sample. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:43 AM Subject: RE: symbol sets and rattlesnake. > > I guess we'd best go back to the 26 letters of the English alphabet plus the > usual diacritics like ~ (tilde) and ^ (circumflex) for our net Siouan. It > occurs to me that our European readers may not display $ as a dollar sign > but rather as a Euro sign, pound sign or some other currency. I guess I'll > go back to using ' for accent also. > > > The Miami-Illinois name for the Massasauga (the smaller of the two > species of rattlesnakes in that area) is /$iih$iikwia/ ($ = s-hacek). > > For what it's worth, s^ekki looks like a loan to me too. > > Kansa we'c?a s^ekku' (where u is u-umlaut). > > but Quapaw we's?a-xti 'snake+intensifier' "real snake". > > Bob > From bcoon at montana.edu Tue Jun 11 18:58:17 2002 From: bcoon at montana.edu (Coon, Brad) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:58:17 -0600 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Message-ID: Make sure your Numlock is on. It does work on my Windows ME at home FWIW. Brad Coon -----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Quintero [mailto:cqcqcq at pgtv.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:47 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Unfortunately, alt0138 gives nothing at all, nor do any of the other combinations, on my HP laptop. So these codes don't work on my Windows ME machine, either in Outlook Express or in Word. Carolyn Q. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Knutson" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:27 PM Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Available on any "Windows" machine are additional characters, these are typed by pressing the 'alt' key and a sequence of numbers: ie. alt0138 S alt0154 s alt0227 � alt0240 � alt0230 � alt0241 � many more are available, this is just a sample. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:43 AM Subject: RE: symbol sets and rattlesnake. > > I guess we'd best go back to the 26 letters of the English alphabet plus the > usual diacritics like ~ (tilde) and ^ (circumflex) for our net Siouan. It > occurs to me that our European readers may not display $ as a dollar sign > but rather as a Euro sign, pound sign or some other currency. I guess I'll > go back to using ' for accent also. > > > The Miami-Illinois name for the Massasauga (the smaller of the two > species of rattlesnakes in that area) is /$iih$iikwia/ ($ = s-hacek). > > For what it's worth, s^ekki looks like a loan to me too. > > Kansa we'c?a s^ekku' (where u is u-umlaut). > > but Quapaw we's?a-xti 'snake+intensifier' "real snake". > > Bob > From Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com Tue Jun 11 19:23:53 2002 From: Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com (Anthony Grant) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:23:53 +0100 Subject: andative etc Message-ID: Colleagues: I must confess I'm with Thilo Schadeberg on 'andative' (he's not a man to cross), and would use 'itive' myself, though 'venitive' has enjoyed some use in Penutian studies. Howard Berman's paper on the place of Molala in Plateau Penutian (IJAL 1996, 1-30) uses 'venitive' (rather than 'ventive'). Anthony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Jun 11 19:25:09 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:25:09 -0600 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. In-Reply-To: <004301c21175$ae681de0$385faad0@machine> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Jun 2002, Alan Knutson wrote: > Available on any "Windows" machine are additional characters, these are > typed by pressing the 'alt' key > and a sequence of numbers: > > ie. > > alt0138 S Unfortunately, not everyone is using a Windows machine. JEK From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Tue Jun 11 19:26:51 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:26:51 -0500 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Message-ID: I'm trying, and this isn't the first time. Still gives nothing, and the num-lock is on. carolyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Coon, Brad" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:58 PM Subject: RE: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Make sure your Numlock is on. It does work on my Windows ME at home FWIW. Brad Coon -----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Quintero [mailto:cqcqcq at pgtv.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:47 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Unfortunately, alt0138 gives nothing at all, nor do any of the other combinations, on my HP laptop. So these codes don't work on my Windows ME machine, either in Outlook Express or in Word. Carolyn Q. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Knutson" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:27 PM Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Available on any "Windows" machine are additional characters, these are typed by pressing the 'alt' key and a sequence of numbers: ie. alt0138 S alt0154 s alt0227 � alt0240 � alt0230 � alt0241 � many more are available, this is just a sample. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:43 AM Subject: RE: symbol sets and rattlesnake. > > I guess we'd best go back to the 26 letters of the English alphabet plus the > usual diacritics like ~ (tilde) and ^ (circumflex) for our net Siouan. It > occurs to me that our European readers may not display $ as a dollar sign > but rather as a Euro sign, pound sign or some other currency. I guess I'll > go back to using ' for accent also. > > > The Miami-Illinois name for the Massasauga (the smaller of the two > species of rattlesnakes in that area) is /$iih$iikwia/ ($ = s-hacek). > > For what it's worth, s^ekki looks like a loan to me too. > > Kansa we'c?a s^ekku' (where u is u-umlaut). > > but Quapaw we's?a-xti 'snake+intensifier' "real snake". > > Bob > From bcoon at montana.edu Tue Jun 11 19:56:23 2002 From: bcoon at montana.edu (Coon, Brad) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:56:23 -0600 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Message-ID: I just did further experimenting. It does not work with the numbers above the letter keypad, only with the separate number pad. Perhaps this is the problem. Brad Coon -----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Quintero [mailto:cqcqcq at pgtv.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:27 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. I'm trying, and this isn't the first time. Still gives nothing, and the num-lock is on. carolyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Coon, Brad" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:58 PM Subject: RE: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Make sure your Numlock is on. It does work on my Windows ME at home FWIW. Brad Coon -----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Quintero [mailto:cqcqcq at pgtv.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:47 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Unfortunately, alt0138 gives nothing at all, nor do any of the other combinations, on my HP laptop. So these codes don't work on my Windows ME machine, either in Outlook Express or in Word. Carolyn Q. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Knutson" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:27 PM Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Available on any "Windows" machine are additional characters, these are typed by pressing the 'alt' key and a sequence of numbers: ie. alt0138 S alt0154 s alt0227 � alt0240 � alt0230 � alt0241 � many more are available, this is just a sample. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:43 AM Subject: RE: symbol sets and rattlesnake. > > I guess we'd best go back to the 26 letters of the English alphabet plus the > usual diacritics like ~ (tilde) and ^ (circumflex) for our net Siouan. It > occurs to me that our European readers may not display $ as a dollar sign > but rather as a Euro sign, pound sign or some other currency. I guess I'll > go back to using ' for accent also. > > > The Miami-Illinois name for the Massasauga (the smaller of the two > species of rattlesnakes in that area) is /$iih$iikwia/ ($ = s-hacek). > > For what it's worth, s^ekki looks like a loan to me too. > > Kansa we'c?a s^ekku' (where u is u-umlaut). > > but Quapaw we's?a-xti 'snake+intensifier' "real snake". > > Bob > From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Tue Jun 11 20:18:34 2002 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:18:34 -0700 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. In-Reply-To: <007b01c21178$61e8f540$0e15460a@direcpc.com> Message-ID: I wonder if this is because the Num Lock is off. I believe this has to be done on the numeric keypad, with Num Lock on. Wally --On Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:46 PM -0500 Carolyn Quintero wrote: > Unfortunately, alt0138 gives nothing at all, nor do any of the other > combinations, on my HP laptop. So these codes don't work on my Windows ME > machine, either in Outlook Express or in Word. > Carolyn Q. From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Tue Jun 11 20:15:56 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:15:56 -0500 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Message-ID: -� ��� � � � � � I would like to thank Brad Coon, and say that I worked on this problem for a long time with several computer folks, and none were able to solve it for me. Thanks a million, Brad. Now, can I make macros to use these special characters in Outlook Express so I don't have to type in so many codes. I do quite a bit of correspondence in Spanish and need the Spanish characters..upside down question mark and exclamation mark, enye, accented vowels, umlaut. BTW, since I'm on a laptop, ofcourse the number pad is activated by the Fn key. Alt, Fn, +code gets the characters. Appreciatively, Carolyn Make sure your Numlock is on. It does work on my Windows ME at home FWIW. Brad Coon -----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Quintero [mailto:cqcqcq at pgtv.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:47 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Unfortunately, alt0138 gives nothing at all, nor do any of the other combinations, on my HP laptop. So these codes don't work on my Windows ME machine, either in Outlook Express or in Word. Carolyn Q. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Knutson" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:27 PM Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Available on any "Windows" machine are additional characters, these are typed by pressing the 'alt' key and a sequence of numbers: ie. alt0138 S alt0154 s alt0227 � alt0240 � alt0230 � alt0241 � many more are available, this is just a sample. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:43 AM Subject: RE: symbol sets and rattlesnake. > > I guess we'd best go back to the 26 letters of the English alphabet plus the > usual diacritics like ~ (tilde) and ^ (circumflex) for our net Siouan. It > occurs to me that our European readers may not display $ as a dollar sign > but rather as a Euro sign, pound sign or some other currency. I guess I'll > go back to using ' for accent also. > > > The Miami-Illinois name for the Massasauga (the smaller of the two > species of rattlesnakes in that area) is /$iih$iikwia/ ($ = s-hacek). > > For what it's worth, s^ekki looks like a loan to me too. > > Kansa we'c?a s^ekku' (where u is u-umlaut). > > but Quapaw we's?a-xti 'snake+intensifier' "real snake". > > Bob > From boris at terracom.net Tue Jun 11 21:01:56 2002 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:01:56 -0500 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Message-ID: Congratrulations Carolyn, My apologies, I was not familiar with the laptop situation, however I should say that these characters are also available with Mac's. I'm not familiar with Unix however. Alan ���������������� etc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carolyn Quintero" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 3:15 PM Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. > > -� > ��� > � > � > � > � > � > I would like to thank Brad Coon, and say that I worked on this problem for a > long time with several computer folks, and none were able to solve it for > me. Thanks a million, Brad. Now, can I make macros to use these special > characters in Outlook Express so I don't have to type in so many codes. I > do quite a bit of correspondence in Spanish and need the Spanish > characters..upside down question mark and exclamation mark, enye, accented > vowels, umlaut. > BTW, since I'm on a laptop, ofcourse the number pad is activated by the Fn > key. Alt, Fn, +code gets the characters. > Appreciatively, > Carolyn > > Make sure your Numlock is on. It does work on my Windows ME at home FWIW. > Brad Coon > > -----Original Message----- > From: Carolyn Quintero [mailto:cqcqcq at pgtv.net] > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:47 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. > > > Unfortunately, alt0138 gives nothing at all, nor do any of the other > combinations, on my HP laptop. So these codes don't work on my Windows ME > machine, either in Outlook Express or in Word. > Carolyn Q. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alan Knutson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:27 PM > Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. > > > Available on any "Windows" machine are additional characters, these are > typed by pressing the 'alt' key > and a sequence of numbers: > > ie. > > alt0138 S > alt0154 s > alt0227 � > alt0240 � > alt0230 � > alt0241 � > > many more are available, this is just a sample. > > Alan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rankin, Robert L" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:43 AM > Subject: RE: symbol sets and rattlesnake. > > > > > > I guess we'd best go back to the 26 letters of the English alphabet plus > the > > usual diacritics like ~ (tilde) and ^ (circumflex) for our net Siouan. It > > occurs to me that our European readers may not display $ as a dollar sign > > but rather as a Euro sign, pound sign or some other currency. I guess > I'll > > go back to using ' for accent also. > > > > > The Miami-Illinois name for the Massasauga (the smaller of the two > > species of rattlesnakes in that area) is /$iih$iikwia/ ($ = s-hacek). > > > > For what it's worth, s^ekki looks like a loan to me too. > > > > Kansa we'c?a s^ekku' (where u is u-umlaut). > > > > but Quapaw we's?a-xti 'snake+intensifier' "real snake". > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Jun 11 21:01:14 2002 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:01:14 -0700 Subject: symbol sets Message-ID: Did you try alt-138, rather than alt-0138? These are PC-ASCII codes; for those of us who use Macs, these won't work at all. In my experience, virtually ANY kind of special character -- even ordinary ones like 'a-acute accent' -- can and probably will get mangled by being passed through email, especially if it passes through some really different types of servers or if it crosses international boundaries. So really, it works best not to use any special characters in a venue like this and to limit ourselves to ugly-but-safe things like 's^', 'u"' and 'e`'. David ---------- >From: "Carolyn Quintero" >To: >Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. >Date: Tue, Jun 11, 2002, 11:46 am > > Unfortunately, alt0138 gives nothing at all, nor do any of the other > combinations, on my HP laptop. So these codes don't work on my Windows ME > machine, either in Outlook Express or in Word. > Carolyn Q. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alan Knutson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:27 PM > Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. > > > Available on any "Windows" machine are additional characters, these are > typed by pressing the 'alt' key > and a sequence of numbers: > > ie. > > alt0138 S > alt0154 s > alt0227 ã > alt0240 ð > alt0230 æ > alt0241 ñ > > many more are available, this is just a sample. > > Alan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rankin, Robert L" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:43 AM > Subject: RE: symbol sets and rattlesnake. > > >> I guess we'd best go back to the 26 letters of the English alphabet plus the >> usual diacritics like ~ (tilde) and ^ (circumflex) for our net Siouan. It >> occurs to me that our European readers may not display $ as a dollar sign but >> rather as a Euro sign, pound sign or some other currency. I guess I'll go >> back to using ' for accent also. >>> The Miami-Illinois name for the Massasauga (the smaller of the two species >>> of rattlesnakes in that area) is /$iih$iikwia/ ($ = s-hacek). >> For what it's worth, s^ekki looks like a loan to me too. >> Kansa we'c?a s^ekku' (where u is u-umlaut). >> but Quapaw we's?a-xti 'snake+intensifier' "real snake". >> Bob > > > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Jun 11 21:44:43 2002 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:44:43 -0700 Subject: rattlesnakes Message-ID: Yes, the Algonquian set is regular. The old Illinois form was /$iih$iikweewa/. It's found all over the family, from Cheyenne and Arapaho through to Delaware and Penobscot. I'd treat you all to a huge cognate set but this *IS* supposed to be a Siouan list... :-) It goes back to Proto-Algonquian */$i:?$i:kwe:wa/ (again, '$' = s-hacek). It probably literally meant 'he who goes sheek sheek'. It specifically means the Massassauga in Miami-Illinois (not the Timber Rattlesnake), tho it's not clear whether that was the species it designated in Proto-Algonquian. It seems to be the generic rattlesnake word in some daughter languages. Perhaps this truly was loaned from Algonquian to Omaha, but I'm just always leery of drawing many conclusions about onomatopoeic words. We all know they're dangerous to use in proving the relatedness of distant languages, and they often violate normal sound changes. But if some Dheghiha-internal funny business is explained by assuming it's a loan, it could be. Dave ---------- >From: Koontz John E >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: rattlesnakes >Date: Mon, Jun 10, 2002, 11:50 pm > > On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, David Costa wrote: >> The Miami-Illinois name for the Massasauga (the smaller of the two species >> of rattlesnakes in that area) is /$iih$iikwia/ ($ = s-hacek). All the sister >> languages have cognates, like Ojibwe /zhiishiigwe/ & Shawnee /sihsiikwe/. >> But I don't think it's necessary to posit an Algonquian -> Omaha-Ponca loan >> here. /s^(e)e'kki/ and the Algonquian etymon are clearly onomatopoeic, and I >> wouldn't be at all surprised for the different languages to independently >> create names like that. > > Is the Algonquian set essentially regular? > > I'd argue against onomatopoeia as the source of the Omaha-Ponca form. > There are basically three reasons for this. From Rgraczyk at aol.com Tue Jun 11 21:48:46 2002 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Randolph Graczyk) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:48:46 EDT Subject: Dakotan 'wakhaN' Message-ID: In a message dated 06/08/2002 4:54:37 PM Mountain Daylight Time, rankin at ku.edu writes: > Is it also possible that the root of 'sacred' was just -hkaN and that the > wa- nominalized it? > > Something similar has happened in Crow, although the forms are not cognate. > Hidatsa has xupa'a 'holy, sacred', and Crow has baaxpa'a < baa-x(u)pa'a. > Although the Crow form has the baa- prefix, it is a stative verb and not a noun. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Jun 11 22:21:28 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:21:28 -0500 Subject: symbol sets Message-ID: >In my experience, virtually ANY kind of special character -- even ordinary ones like 'a-acute accent' -- can and probably will get mangled by being passed through email, especially if it passes through some really different types of servers or if it crosses international boundaries. So really,it works best not to use any special characters in a venue like this and to limit ourselves to ugly-but-safe things like 's^', 'u"' and 'e`'. I'm afraid Dave's right. We've been thru this before. Those with Windows machines can probaby set their "font" for John's Siouan Doulos and retrieve a fairly large number of the special symbols. But those fonts seem to be a problem for at least some Macs and those who read their email in DOS-based systems like Pine are out of luck. It takes a better man than me to predict how Unix would respond (tho' I think our old Pine system here ran under Unix). I'd love to get everyone on the same page so we could use all of our Siouanist symbols, but I'm not holding my breath. Bob From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Jun 12 00:46:04 2002 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:46:04 -0500 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Message-ID: Carolyn Quintero wrote: > Now, can I make macros to use these special > characters in Outlook Express so I don't have to type in so many codes. I > do quite a bit of correspondence in Spanish and need the Spanish > characters..upside down question mark and exclamation mark, enye, accented > vowels, umlaut. On Windows 98 (and XP, I'm sure), if your keyboard is set to international, you'll be able to type "European" characters easily: for e with acute accent, for example, type the single quote (acute accent) followed by e. The single quote will appear dead till the e is struck, when e-acute magically appears. Same with double quote + u = u-umlaut, etc. The drawback is that you have to override this automatic feature if, for instance, you want to type "a..: you have to strike the double quote twice, when two double quotes will appear, then backspace once and type the a. For those who use special characters a lot, though, it's well worth the bother. Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Jun 12 00:53:43 2002 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:53:43 -0500 Subject: symbol sets Message-ID: And, as I'm sure I've said before, the mid- to long-term solution is for everyone to use Unicode. http://www.unicode.org/ Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Jun 12 00:57:57 2002 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:57:57 -0500 Subject: rattlesnakes Message-ID: David Costa wrote: > I'd treat you all to a huge cognate set > but this *IS* supposed to be a Siouan list... :-) Well, how about an Algonquian list? (Has there ever been one, is there one now, or are there plans for one? Surely there should be.) Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Jun 12 15:19:11 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:19:11 -0600 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. In-Reply-To: <001901c21184$d22fd2e0$0e15460a@direcpc.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Jun 2002, Carolyn Quintero wrote: > -� I see dash ^J (which is a carriage control) > ��� I see ^J^J^J > � I see ^Z > � I see a pi > � I see a mu > � I see the three-bar equivalence sign > � I see the plus or minus sign > I would like to thank Brad Coon, and say that I worked on this problem for a > long time with several computer folks, and none were able to solve it for > me. Thanks a million, Brad. Now, can I make macros to use these special > characters in Outlook Express so I don't have to type in so many codes. I > do quite a bit of correspondence in Spanish and need the Spanish > characters..upside down question mark and exclamation mark, enye, accented > vowels, umlaut. > BTW, since I'm on a laptop, ofcourse the number pad is activated by the Fn > key. Alt, Fn, +code gets the characters. Incidentally, if the issue is typing Spanish in Windows it is possible to install a Windows Spanish keyboard definition (there are a number of different ones) or the USA International, and get your keyboard set up so that certain keys now work as they would in Spain, Mexico, etc., to produce enye, Spanish quotation marks, etc., or certain sequences of keys (in the USA International) will do this. This only solves part of the problems for Siouanists, but nails down Spanish pretty well. You need your Windows disk handy, since Windows will need some files off of it, and you start from settings > control panel > keyboard > language. You can select the active keyboard (if you have several installed ) in the tray or in the login display. In my experience all recent versions of Windows sometimes drop tray icons at login time (they just never appear), at least if you have a lot. There's some chatter about this on the net as an unsolved bug. I believe you can select in this case in the keyboard tool. The real problem with this is that it can be a bit difficult to choke the descriptions of the keyboards (what characters where) out of the Microsoft site. I have managed in the past by being persistant. The Spanish, etc., solution don't work for Siouan because we have some character + diacritic combinations not imagined in Eastern Europe (let alone the Peninsula). Of course, the Corvinologists can get along with the basic English keyboard. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Jun 12 15:38:24 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:38:24 -0600 Subject: rattlesnakes In-Reply-To: <3D069C95.C7ACD62@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Jun 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > Well, how about an Algonquian list? (Has there ever been one, is there > one now, or are there plans for one? Surely there should be.) I don't know if there ever has been one. There was an Iroquoian list, but I'm told it didn't work for various reasons - essentially it wasn't linguistic enough for the linguists. One reason I sort of worry when we stray too far, as we occasionally do. I did once offer to operate a Caddoan list, but got the impression that the Caddoanists didn't really need one, being a small group already in constant communication. I'd cheerfully run any three of these lists (and Muskogean, too), if there was any interest and David Rood agreed to sponsor the situation with the University of Colorado, but it would have to be understood that it would be more or less a silent operation on my part. I wouldn't be able to kick start the list as I occasionally do here, and I might not even be listening in. Essentially I'd just be granting subscriptions and deleting people who can't do it themselves or who disappear. (I more and more frequently have had to block subscriptions from what appear to be spamming operations.) I suspect it would be better in each of these cases if there was someone who was actually working in the field doing the management. I have a few suggestions that might help, if you're interested. JEK From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Wed Jun 12 16:19:08 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:19:08 -0500 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Message-ID: Thanks, John, for the advice. The problem with this solution is that the Spanish keyboard has many characters in the "wrong" places on the keyboard. It's so confusing, especially if you use another keyboard at times, that it's not worth the hassle. I've gone this route, even relabling my keyboard with little stick-on labels, but it's a mess. Carolyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 10:19 AM Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. On Tue, 11 Jun 2002, Carolyn Quintero wrote: > -� I see dash ^J (which is a carriage control) > ��� I see ^J^J^J > � I see ^Z > � I see a pi > � I see a mu > � I see the three-bar equivalence sign > � I see the plus or minus sign > I would like to thank Brad Coon, and say that I worked on this problem for a > long time with several computer folks, and none were able to solve it for > me. Thanks a million, Brad. Now, can I make macros to use these special > characters in Outlook Express so I don't have to type in so many codes. I > do quite a bit of correspondence in Spanish and need the Spanish > characters..upside down question mark and exclamation mark, enye, accented > vowels, umlaut. > BTW, since I'm on a laptop, ofcourse the number pad is activated by the Fn > key. Alt, Fn, +code gets the characters. Incidentally, if the issue is typing Spanish in Windows it is possible to install a Windows Spanish keyboard definition (there are a number of different ones) or the USA International, and get your keyboard set up so that certain keys now work as they would in Spain, Mexico, etc., to produce enye, Spanish quotation marks, etc., or certain sequences of keys (in the USA International) will do this. This only solves part of the problems for Siouanists, but nails down Spanish pretty well. You need your Windows disk handy, since Windows will need some files off of it, and you start from settings > control panel > keyboard > language. You can select the active keyboard (if you have several installed ) in the tray or in the login display. In my experience all recent versions of Windows sometimes drop tray icons at login time (they just never appear), at least if you have a lot. There's some chatter about this on the net as an unsolved bug. I believe you can select in this case in the keyboard tool. The real problem with this is that it can be a bit difficult to choke the descriptions of the keyboards (what characters where) out of the Microsoft site. I have managed in the past by being persistant. The Spanish, etc., solution don't work for Siouan because we have some character + diacritic combinations not imagined in Eastern Europe (let alone the Peninsula). Of course, the Corvinologists can get along with the basic English keyboard. From Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com Wed Jun 12 17:35:00 2002 From: Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 18:35:00 +0100 Subject: symbol sets in British perspective Message-ID: Colleagues: Yes, we do get $ here - it's above the numeral 4 on my keyboard. Does £, above 3 here, come out as a pound sign? I've got quite used to dealing with email data sent in numerous ad hoc codes adapted to the requirements of the qwerty keyboard. As long as a code is used which we can all agree on, the actual forms used shouldn't be too troublesome. (I can imagine some knotty problems with cases such as nasalised stressed vowels in Dhegiha.) Terry Kaufman (whose table of Siuouan correspondences dates from the 1960s and is supposed to be really good) used to use 7 for glottal stop and 9 for angma/eng, which are fine as long as one knows what to look for. I tried to get on the iroquoian list which JEK mentioned an never got a response. As a casual Caddoanist, I'd certainly be keen to participate or at least 'lurk' on such a list. In fact, I'm surprised that there aren't more lists of this sort in general, though most of them get spanmmed fairly swiftly. (I tuned out of an Austronesian list once one of the participants started putting large chunks of his political/erotic novel on the list every weekend.) Anthony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Jun 12 17:44:02 2002 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:44:02 -0500 Subject: symbol sets in British perspective Message-ID: Anthony, > Yes, we do get $ here - it's above the numeral 4 on my keyboard. Does > £, above 3 here, come out as a pound sign? Yes it does for me, at least (on Windows). In the U.S., it's the # (number) sign that's above 3. > I tried to get on the iroquoian list which JEK mentioned an never got > a response. I've received one Iroquoian message, in March 2000. Alan From shanwest at uvic.ca Wed Jun 12 18:30:19 2002 From: shanwest at uvic.ca (Shannon West) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:30:19 -0700 Subject: rattlesnakes In-Reply-To: <3D069C95.C7ACD62@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of Alan H. Hartley > Sent: June 11, 2002 5:58 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: rattlesnakes > > > David Costa wrote: > > > I'd treat you all to a huge cognate set > > but this *IS* supposed to be a Siouan list... :-) > > Well, how about an Algonquian list? (Has there ever been one, is there > one now, or are there plans for one? Surely there should be.) I'd certainly be interested. I've got my eye on Algonquian. :) If there's interest enough, I'd be happy to set it up. If people are interested, email me directly at shanwest at uvic.ca, and if it bounces, as it does for anyone on a ORDB, NJABL, or VISI's blacklist, try shannonwest at hotpop.com. Shannon From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Jun 13 06:43:43 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 00:43:43 -0600 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. In-Reply-To: <002e01c2122c$e87c0ca0$0e15460a@direcpc.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, Carolyn Quintero wrote: > Thanks, John, for the advice. The problem with this solution is that the > Spanish keyboard has many characters in the "wrong" places on the keyboard. > It's so confusing, especially if you use another keyboard at times, that > it's not worth the hassle. I've gone this route, even relabling my keyboard > with little stick-on labels, but it's a mess. The one I've always used is the International one, which represents enye, for example, with n~ (or ~n - I forget). Especially when combined with a switch in the tray I don't find this onorous. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Jun 13 07:46:01 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 01:46:01 -0600 Subject: symbol sets in British perspective [and Constitution of the List] In-Reply-To: <000a01c21237$7b3d2060$1573073e@a5h1k3> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, Anthony Grant wrote: > Yes, we do get $ here - it's above the numeral 4 on my keyboard. > Does �, above 3 here, come out as a pound sign? I see the character after "does" as an accented u. What's above 3 on a standard US keyboard is a thing called the pound sign, basically looking like a tic-tac-toe (naughts and crosses) cross-hatching. > I tried to get on the iroquoian list which JEK mentioned an never got > a response. I got on, but only saw one or two posts, of a marginal nature, and years ago. > I'm surprised that there aren't more lists of this sort in general, > though most of them get spanmmed fairly swiftly. (I tuned out of an > Austronesian list once one of the participants started putting large > chunks of his political/erotic novel on the list every weekend.) About the only policing I've needed so far is this: - Only subscribers can submit traffic (others occasionally try). - Only people I know to be lingistically interested in Siouan languages get on. I have the list set up so that I must approve all subscriptions. I ask questions of anyone whom I don't recognize. A miniscule but increasing applicants fail to answer these questions. Note that approval is not needed to leave the list. - I very occasionally warn somebody about inappropriate topics. Maybe twice, and one of these cases asked nicely beforehand. I would delete anyone posting clearly inappropriate (or wildly irrelevant or significantly irrational or really rude) material immediately and arbitrarily and ask questions (maybe) later. This has never happened, though I think we've bored a few people to death. Sooner or later it will happen, of course. I have no precise criteria for inappropriate, irrelevant, or irrational, but I generally know them when I see them and if I'm ever in doubt, I'll ask. - I do not have things set up so that I have to approve postings, and I most certainly don't edit anything. - If I fall out of touch with the will of the subscribers, I assume they will let me know. I'll be glad to let anyone better in touch handle things. The Chief Executive, responsible for firing me and replacing me if it becomes necessary is David Rood. JEK From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Thu Jun 13 13:34:38 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:34:38 -0500 Subject: symbol sets in British perspective [and Constitution of the List] Message-ID: I see the character after "does" in Anthony's message as a British pound sign in this email.. However, on my keyboard, the character above 3 is the pound-sign (like tic-tac-toe), or what was in the early days of computing around 1982 called "scrunch" by computer folks. I've called it "scrunch" ever since, but not many people know this term? Carolyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 2:46 AM Subject: Re: symbol sets in British perspective [and Constitution of the List] On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, Anthony Grant wrote: > Yes, we do get $ here - it's above the numeral 4 on my keyboard. > Does �, above 3 here, come out as a pound sign? I see the character after "does" as an accented u. What's above 3 on a standard US keyboard is a thing called the pound sign, basically looking like a tic-tac-toe (naughts and crosses) cross-hatching. > I tried to get on the iroquoian list which JEK mentioned an never got > a response. I got on, but only saw one or two posts, of a marginal nature, and years ago. > I'm surprised that there aren't more lists of this sort in general, > though most of them get spanmmed fairly swiftly. (I tuned out of an > Austronesian list once one of the participants started putting large > chunks of his political/erotic novel on the list every weekend.) About the only policing I've needed so far is this: - Only subscribers can submit traffic (others occasionally try). - Only people I know to be lingistically interested in Siouan languages get on. I have the list set up so that I must approve all subscriptions. I ask questions of anyone whom I don't recognize. A miniscule but increasing applicants fail to answer these questions. Note that approval is not needed to leave the list. - I very occasionally warn somebody about inappropriate topics. Maybe twice, and one of these cases asked nicely beforehand. I would delete anyone posting clearly inappropriate (or wildly irrelevant or significantly irrational or really rude) material immediately and arbitrarily and ask questions (maybe) later. This has never happened, though I think we've bored a few people to death. Sooner or later it will happen, of course. I have no precise criteria for inappropriate, irrelevant, or irrational, but I generally know them when I see them and if I'm ever in doubt, I'll ask. - I do not have things set up so that I have to approve postings, and I most certainly don't edit anything. - If I fall out of touch with the will of the subscribers, I assume they will let me know. I'll be glad to let anyone better in touch handle things. The Chief Executive, responsible for firing me and replacing me if it becomes necessary is David Rood. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Jun 13 18:11:19 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:11:19 -0600 Subject: symbol sets in British perspective In-Reply-To: <002501c212df$17111e40$0e15460a@direcpc.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Carolyn Quintero wrote: > ... However, on my keyboard, the character above 3 is the > pound-sign (like tic-tac-toe), or what was in the early days of computing > around 1982 called "scrunch" by computer folks. I've called it "scrunch" > ever since, but not many people know this term? The only oddity in this line I can think of is that Unix people call exclamation mark "bang." JEK From Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com Thu Jun 13 18:33:03 2002 From: Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:33:03 +0100 Subject: pound signs Message-ID: What you guys call the pound sign, the noughts and crosses sign (I know what tic-tac-toe is but I've spent a lot of time in the US and most Brits would just be puzzled) is called the Hash sign here. Probably from French hache 'axe'. It's fairly recent in use in Britain: we wouldn't have understood what the sign in (say) 'Riot in Cell Block #9' meant 20 years ago. Now that we have it, I wonder how we ever lived without it. I customarily use $ for the posatalveolar sibilant in postings to people I think will understand. British keyboards don't have the cent sign, though, which is a pity as I've long liked it as a quick way of signalling /ts/ in the way that Mayanists use it. Anthony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Thu Jun 13 18:44:45 2002 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:44:45 -0600 Subject: pound signs In-Reply-To: <004b01c21308$c1acf940$0d51073e@a5h1k3> Message-ID: This is way out of the realm of Siouanist discussions, but since we're naming the # sign in various cultures, I'm reminded of a problem I had programming my German cellphone. I was supposed to do something and then press the "raute Taste" (Taste - key, button), which experimentation finally showed me to be the pound sign. "Raut" refers to either a rhomboid in technical geometry terms, or the diamond in a deck of cards. Neither of those meanings struck me as right for #; does that say something about the way we match and categorize abstract symbols in various cultures, or am I just dumb about such things? David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Anthony Grant wrote: > What you guys call the pound sign, the noughts and crosses sign (I know what tic-tac-toe is but I've spent a lot of time in the US and most Brits would just be puzzled) is called the Hash sign here. Probably from French hache 'axe'. It's fairly recent in use in Britain: we wouldn't have understood what the sign in (say) 'Riot in Cell Block #9' meant 20 years ago. Now that we have it, I wonder how we ever lived without it. > > I customarily use $ for the posatalveolar sibilant in postings to people I think will understand. British keyboards don't have the cent sign, though, which is a pity as I've long liked it as a quick way of signalling /ts/ in the way that Mayanists use it. > > Anthony > From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Thu Jun 13 18:49:10 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:49:10 -0500 Subject: symbol sets in British perspective Message-ID: I like both "scrunch" and "bang" and shall use them henceforth. Carolyn PS shouldn't we name the question mark "quiz"? Then I need a name for the upside-down-question mark, too. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 1:11 PM Subject: Re: symbol sets in British perspective > On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Carolyn Quintero wrote: > > ... However, on my keyboard, the character above 3 is the > > pound-sign (like tic-tac-toe), or what was in the early days of computing > > around 1982 called "scrunch" by computer folks. I've called it "scrunch" > > ever since, but not many people know this term? > > The only oddity in this line I can think of is that Unix people call > exclamation mark "bang." > > JEK > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Jun 13 19:00:50 2002 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:00:50 -0700 Subject: nothing whatsoever to do with Siouan, but... Message-ID: 'Ziuq' would be the only possible choice. :-) Dave ---------- >From: "Carolyn Quintero" >To: >Subject: Re: symbol sets in British perspective >Date: Thu, Jun 13, 2002, 11:49 am > > PS shouldn't we name the question mark "quiz"? Then I need a name for the > upside-down-question mark, too. From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Thu Jun 13 18:57:12 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:57:12 -0500 Subject: pound signs Message-ID: I've noticed that in the US on company phone lines where I often listen in Spanish, the scrunch-hash-pound sign is referred to as "el signo de numero", but in English as "the pound sign" in the corresponding set of instructions. This sign isn't really used all that much for "number" in Spanish, though. I guess they just couldn't think of any other way of describing it than "the number sign", at least a better choice than rhomboid/diamond, or "pound" which for sure wouldn't mean anything to Spanish speakers. Carolyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "ROOD DAVID S" To: "Anthony Grant" Cc: Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 1:44 PM Subject: Re: pound signs > > This is way out of the realm of Siouanist discussions, but since we're > naming the # sign in various cultures, I'm reminded of a problem I had > programming my German cellphone. I was supposed to do something and then > press the "raute Taste" (Taste - key, button), which experimentation > finally showed me to be the pound sign. "Raut" refers to either a rhomboid > in technical geometry terms, or the diamond in a deck of cards. Neither > of those meanings struck me as right for #; does that say something about > the way we match and categorize abstract symbols in various cultures, or > am I just dumb about such things? > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Anthony Grant wrote: > > > What you guys call the pound sign, the noughts and crosses sign (I know what tic-tac-toe is but I've spent a lot of time in the US and most Brits would just be puzzled) is called the Hash sign here. Probably from French hache 'axe'. It's fairly recent in use in Britain: we wouldn't have understood what the sign in (say) 'Riot in Cell Block #9' meant 20 years ago. Now that we have it, I wonder how we ever lived without it. > > > > I customarily use $ for the posatalveolar sibilant in postings to people I think will understand. British keyboards don't have the cent sign, though, which is a pity as I've long liked it as a quick way of signalling /ts/ in the way that Mayanists use it. > > > > Anthony > > > From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Thu Jun 13 19:15:15 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:15:15 -0500 Subject: nothing whatsoever to do with Siouan, but... Message-ID: Then upside-down-exclamation would have to be "gnab" (would the g be pronounced?). ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Costa" To: Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 2:00 PM Subject: nothing whatsoever to do with Siouan, but... > 'Ziuq' would be the only possible choice. :-) > > Dave > > ---------- > >From: "Carolyn Quintero" > >To: > >Subject: Re: symbol sets in British perspective > >Date: Thu, Jun 13, 2002, 11:49 am > > > > > PS shouldn't we name the question mark "quiz"? Then I need a name for the > > upside-down-question mark, too. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Jun 13 19:48:53 2002 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:48:53 -0700 Subject: nothing whatsoever to do with Siouan, but... Message-ID: It would of course be pronounced in the Italian manner, as [nyab]. ---------- >From: "Carolyn Quintero" >To: >Subject: Re: nothing whatsoever to do with Siouan, but... >Date: Thu, Jun 13, 2002, 12:15 pm > > Then upside-down-exclamation would have to be "gnab" (would the g be > pronounced?). > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Costa" > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 2:00 PM > Subject: nothing whatsoever to do with Siouan, but... > > >> 'Ziuq' would be the only possible choice. :-) >> >> Dave >> >> ---------- >> >From: "Carolyn Quintero" >> >To: >> >Subject: Re: symbol sets in British perspective >> >Date: Thu, Jun 13, 2002, 11:49 am >> > > >>> PS shouldn't we name the question mark "quiz"? Then I need a name for the >>> upside-down-question mark, too. > From rankin at ku.edu Thu Jun 13 20:18:10 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 15:18:10 -0500 Subject: pound signs Message-ID: I've always called the # sign above the 3 on the US keyboard "cross hatch". Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: ROOD DAVID S To: Anthony Grant Cc: Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 1:44 PM Subject: Re: pound signs > > This is way out of the realm of Siouanist discussions, but since we're > naming the # sign in various cultures, I'm reminded of a problem I had > programming my German cellphone. I was supposed to do something and then > press the "raute Taste" (Taste - key, button), which experimentation > finally showed me to be the pound sign. "Raut" refers to either a rhomboid > in technical geometry terms, or the diamond in a deck of cards. Neither > of those meanings struck me as right for #; does that say something about > the way we match and categorize abstract symbols in various cultures, or > am I just dumb about such things? > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Anthony Grant wrote: > > > What you guys call the pound sign, the noughts and crosses sign (I know what tic-tac-toe is but I've spent a lot of time in the US and most Brits would just be puzzled) is called the Hash sign here. Probably from French hache 'axe'. It's fairly recent in use in Britain: we wouldn't have understood what the sign in (say) 'Riot in Cell Block #9' meant 20 years ago. Now that we have it, I wonder how we ever lived without it. > > > > I customarily use $ for the posatalveolar sibilant in postings to people I think will understand. British keyboards don't have the cent sign, though, which is a pity as I've long liked it as a quick way of signalling /ts/ in the way that Mayanists use it. > > > > Anthony > > > From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Thu Jun 13 21:41:36 2002 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 15:41:36 -0600 Subject: pound signs In-Reply-To: <004101c21318$3f47ad00$e2b5ed81@rankin> Message-ID: Armik and I were discussing this discussion and realized that the symbol above the 3 is to be called the "pound sign" in both American and British jargon -- but refers to a different symbol, depending on which side of the pond you're on. The designers of typewriter keyboards are to be commended for choosing so carefully, eh? David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, R. Rankin wrote: > I've always called the # sign above the 3 on the US keyboard "cross hatch". > Bob > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ROOD DAVID S > To: Anthony Grant > Cc: > Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 1:44 PM > Subject: Re: pound signs > > > > > > This is way out of the realm of Siouanist discussions, but since we're > > naming the # sign in various cultures, I'm reminded of a problem I had > > programming my German cellphone. I was supposed to do something and then > > press the "raute Taste" (Taste - key, button), which experimentation > > finally showed me to be the pound sign. "Raut" refers to either a rhomboid > > in technical geometry terms, or the diamond in a deck of cards. Neither > > of those meanings struck me as right for #; does that say something about > > the way we match and categorize abstract symbols in various cultures, or > > am I just dumb about such things? > > > > > > David S. Rood > > Dept. of Linguistics > > Univ. of Colorado > > 295 UCB > > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > > USA > > rood at colorado.edu > > > > On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Anthony Grant wrote: > > > > > What you guys call the pound sign, the noughts and crosses sign (I know > what tic-tac-toe is but I've spent a lot of time in the US and most Brits > would just be puzzled) is called the Hash sign here. Probably from French > hache 'axe'. It's fairly recent in use in Britain: we wouldn't have > understood what the sign in (say) 'Riot in Cell Block #9' meant 20 years > ago. Now that we have it, I wonder how we ever lived without it. > > > > > > I customarily use $ for the posatalveolar sibilant in postings to people > I think will understand. British keyboards don't have the cent sign, > though, which is a pity as I've long liked it as a quick way of signalling > /ts/ in the way that Mayanists use it. > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > From boris at terracom.net Thu Jun 13 21:47:26 2002 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 16:47:26 -0500 Subject: pound signs Message-ID: Wouldn't you say that would be..... which side of the pound? :) Alan K ----- Original Message ----- From: "ROOD DAVID S" To: Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 4:41 PM Subject: Re: pound signs > > Armik and I were discussing this discussion and realized that the symbol > above the 3 is to be called the "pound sign" in both American and British > jargon -- but refers to a different symbol, depending on which side of the > pond you're on. The designers of typewriter keyboards are to be commended > for choosing so carefully, eh? > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, R. Rankin wrote: > > > I've always called the # sign above the 3 on the US keyboard "cross hatch". > > Bob > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: ROOD DAVID S > > To: Anthony Grant > > Cc: > > Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 1:44 PM > > Subject: Re: pound signs > > > > > > > > > > This is way out of the realm of Siouanist discussions, but since we're > > > naming the # sign in various cultures, I'm reminded of a problem I had > > > programming my German cellphone. I was supposed to do something and then > > > press the "raute Taste" (Taste - key, button), which experimentation > > > finally showed me to be the pound sign. "Raut" refers to either a rhomboid > > > in technical geometry terms, or the diamond in a deck of cards. Neither > > > of those meanings struck me as right for #; does that say something about > > > the way we match and categorize abstract symbols in various cultures, or > > > am I just dumb about such things? > > > > > > > > > David S. Rood > > > Dept. of Linguistics > > > Univ. of Colorado > > > 295 UCB > > > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > > > USA > > > rood at colorado.edu > > > > > > On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Anthony Grant wrote: > > > > > > > What you guys call the pound sign, the noughts and crosses sign (I know > > what tic-tac-toe is but I've spent a lot of time in the US and most Brits > > would just be puzzled) is called the Hash sign here. Probably from French > > hache 'axe'. It's fairly recent in use in Britain: we wouldn't have > > understood what the sign in (say) 'Riot in Cell Block #9' meant 20 years > > ago. Now that we have it, I wonder how we ever lived without it. > > > > > > > > I customarily use $ for the posatalveolar sibilant in postings to people > > I think will understand. British keyboards don't have the cent sign, > > though, which is a pity as I've long liked it as a quick way of signalling > > /ts/ in the way that Mayanists use it. > > > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > From jggoodtracks at juno.com Fri Jun 14 00:16:32 2002 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:16:32 -0500 Subject: Dakotan 'wakhaN' Message-ID: For what it is worth, I listed -kan as a root for sacred/ holy. I looked up Ken Miners lexicon on Winnebago and noticed that he, too, had listed it in the same manner. jgt On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:48:46 EDT Rgraczyk at aol.com writes: > In a message dated 06/08/2002 4:54:37 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > rankin at ku.edu writes: > > > > Is it also possible that the root of 'sacred' was just -hkaN and > that the > > wa- nominalized it? > > > > Something similar has happened in Crow, although the forms are not > cognate. > > Hidatsa has xupa'a 'holy, sacred', and Crow has baaxpa'a < > baa-x(u)pa'a. > > > Although the Crow form has the baa- prefix, it is a stative verb and > not a > noun. > > Randy From enichol4 at attbi.com Fri Jun 14 03:19:50 2002 From: enichol4 at attbi.com (Eric) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 22:19:50 -0500 Subject: nothing whatsoever to do with Siouan, but... Message-ID: "zinb", maybe? -Eric ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Costa" To: Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 2:00 PM Subject: nothing whatsoever to do with Siouan, but... > 'Ziuq' would be the only possible choice. :-) > > Dave > > ---------- > >From: "Carolyn Quintero" > >To: > >Subject: Re: symbol sets in British perspective > >Date: Thu, Jun 13, 2002, 11:49 am > > > > > PS shouldn't we name the question mark "quiz"? Then I need a name for the > > upside-down-question mark, too. > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Jun 16 21:31:44 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 15:31:44 -0600 Subject: Stoney (fwd) Message-ID: Rerouted to the list: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 15:31:07 -0600 (MDT) From: Koontz John E To: Anthony Grant Subject: Re: Stoney On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Anthony Grant wrote: > can anyone point me to recent work on Stoney? I know the Parks and > Demallie article, which is what sparked my curiosity. I'm especially > interested in the effects of Cree on the language, and on the > processes which have made Stoney progressively more distinct from > Assiniboin(e). There was an article by Allan Taylor some years ago in the now defunct Siouan & Caddoan Newsletter which was, as I recall, on Stoney phonology, etc., as an evolution of Assiniboine influenced by Cree. I don't have the citation or the article handy. JEK From rankin at ku.edu Sun Jun 16 22:07:10 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 17:07:10 -0500 Subject: Stoney (fwd) Message-ID: Isn't/wasn't one of Doug and/or Ray's grad students working on Stoney a coupla years ago? Ed Cook at Calgary was interested in it too sometime back, but I don't know if anything ever came of it. You could email both and see. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: Koontz John E To: Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 4:31 PM Subject: Re: Stoney (fwd) > Rerouted to the list: > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 15:31:07 -0600 (MDT) > From: Koontz John E > To: Anthony Grant > Subject: Re: Stoney > > On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Anthony Grant wrote: > > can anyone point me to recent work on Stoney? I know the Parks and > > Demallie article, which is what sparked my curiosity. I'm especially > > interested in the effects of Cree on the language, and on the > > processes which have made Stoney progressively more distinct from > > Assiniboin(e). > > There was an article by Allan Taylor some years ago in the now defunct > Siouan & Caddoan Newsletter which was, as I recall, on Stoney phonology, > etc., as an evolution of Assiniboine influenced by Cree. I don't have the > citation or the article handy. > > JEK > > From egooding at iupui.edu Mon Jun 17 00:52:25 2002 From: egooding at iupui.edu (Erik Gooding) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 19:52:25 -0500 Subject: Stoney (fwd) In-Reply-To: <001901c21582$29fa5a80$e1b5ed81@rankin> Message-ID: I've got a Stoney bibliography in my office, I spent some time at Alexis and Morley during the summers of 97-99. If anyone is interested I can email them off list. Erik G. At 05:07 PM 6/16/02 -0500, you wrote: >Isn't/wasn't one of Doug and/or Ray's grad students >working on Stoney a coupla years ago? Ed Cook at >Calgary was interested in it too sometime back, but I >don't know if anything ever came of it. You could >email both and see. > >Bob > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Koontz John E >To: >Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 4:31 PM >Subject: Re: Stoney (fwd) > > >> Rerouted to the list: >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 15:31:07 -0600 (MDT) >> From: Koontz John E >> To: Anthony Grant >> Subject: Re: Stoney >> >> On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Anthony Grant wrote: >> > can anyone point me to recent work on Stoney? I >know the Parks and >> > Demallie article, which is what sparked my >curiosity. I'm especially >> > interested in the effects of Cree on the language, >and on the >> > processes which have made Stoney progressively more >distinct from >> > Assiniboin(e). >> >> There was an article by Allan Taylor some years ago >in the now defunct >> Siouan & Caddoan Newsletter which was, as I recall, >on Stoney phonology, >> etc., as an evolution of Assiniboine influenced by >Cree. I don't have the >> citation or the article handy. >> >> JEK >> >> > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jun 17 11:22:20 2002 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 06:22:20 -0500 Subject: Underwater Cat In-Reply-To: <001901c21582$29fa5a80$e1b5ed81@rankin> Message-ID: Does Siouan, or for that matter Muskogean, cosmology have the Underwater Panther, Underwater Cat, characteristic of Algonquian and Iroquoian? Thanks, Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Jun 17 17:43:15 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 11:43:15 -0600 Subject: Underwater Cat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Does Siouan, or for that matter Muskogean, cosmology have the Underwater > Panther, Underwater Cat, characteristic of Algonquian and Iroquoian? Yes. There was a discussion of this not too long ago, but I guess just long enough ago, under the heading of watermonster that would appear in the archives. Go to http://www.linguistlist.org, select archives lists, go to Siouan and then search on watermonster and/or panther. The recent discussion on terms for sacred and snake would also be applicable. JEK From Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com Mon Jun 17 17:52:33 2002 From: Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 18:52:33 +0100 Subject: Stoney (fwd) Message-ID: Dear Erik: as you may guess, I'm interested! Best wishes and thanks Anthony ----- Original Message ----- From: Erik Gooding To: Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 1:52 AM Subject: Re: Stoney (fwd) > I've got a Stoney bibliography in my office, I spent some time at Alexis > and Morley during the summers of 97-99. If anyone is interested I can email > them off list. > > Erik G. > > > At 05:07 PM 6/16/02 -0500, you wrote: > >Isn't/wasn't one of Doug and/or Ray's grad students > >working on Stoney a coupla years ago? Ed Cook at > >Calgary was interested in it too sometime back, but I > >don't know if anything ever came of it. You could > >email both and see. > > > >Bob > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Koontz John E > >To: > >Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 4:31 PM > >Subject: Re: Stoney (fwd) > > > > > >> Rerouted to the list: > >> > >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 15:31:07 -0600 (MDT) > >> From: Koontz John E > >> To: Anthony Grant > >> Subject: Re: Stoney > >> > >> On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Anthony Grant wrote: > >> > can anyone point me to recent work on Stoney? I > >know the Parks and > >> > Demallie article, which is what sparked my > >curiosity. I'm especially > >> > interested in the effects of Cree on the language, > >and on the > >> > processes which have made Stoney progressively more > >distinct from > >> > Assiniboin(e). > >> > >> There was an article by Allan Taylor some years ago > >in the now defunct > >> Siouan & Caddoan Newsletter which was, as I recall, > >on Stoney phonology, > >> etc., as an evolution of Assiniboine influenced by > >Cree. I don't have the > >> citation or the article handy. > >> > >> JEK > >> > >> > > > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Jun 17 19:05:04 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 13:05:04 -0600 Subject: Underwater Cat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Does Siouan, or for that matter Muskogean, cosmology have the Underwater > Panther, Underwater Cat, characteristic of Algonquian and Iroquoian? Michael's question reminds me that it might be informative in regard to Siouan terms for 'sacred', 'snake', 'watermonster', etc., to look at Algonquian usage with manitou, which I think has some semantic parallels. I don't know if there are any grammatical parallels. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jun 17 19:17:05 2002 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:17:05 -0500 Subject: Underwater Cat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There are cosmogonic parallels, as the Underwater Cat and the snake are constellated within the same archetypal field--long things. Long tails, long bodies. On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > Does Siouan, or for that matter Muskogean, cosmology have the Underwater > > Panther, Underwater Cat, characteristic of Algonquian and Iroquoian? > > Michael's question reminds me that it might be informative in regard to > Siouan terms for 'sacred', 'snake', 'watermonster', etc., to look at > Algonquian usage with manitou, which I think has some semantic parallels. > I don't know if there are any grammatical parallels. > > > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu "Talking is often a torment for me, and I need many days of silence to recover from the futility of words. C.G. Jung "...as a dog howls at the moon, I talk." Rumi From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Jun 17 19:31:07 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 13:31:07 -0600 Subject: Underwater Cat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > There are cosmogonic parallels, as the Underwater Cat and the snake are > constellated within the same archetypal field--long things. Long tails, > long bodies. Aren't there also cases of derivatives of manitou being used both of sacred things, or mysterious creatures, including perhaps, watermonsters, and God? From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Jun 17 20:14:35 2002 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 13:14:35 -0700 Subject: Underwater Cat Message-ID: > On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Michael Mccafferty wrote: >> There are cosmogonic parallels, as the Underwater Cat and the snake are >> constellated within the same archetypal field--long things. Long tails, >> long bodies. > > Aren't there also cases of derivatives of manitou being used both of > sacred things, or mysterious creatures, including perhaps, watermonsters, > and God? Well... *AHEM*... speaking just of Miami-Illinois, the word /manetoowa/ is also used for the aquatic Seven Headed Monster in a Peoria trickster story elicited 100 years ago. In late M-I, the word seems not to have been used for 'god' much anymore, tho speakers seemed to realize that overtones like that still clung to the word. Some speakers said the word meant 'devil'. The truly unexpected thing is that the obviously related M-I word /manetwa/ means 'snow (when falling)', a quirk not shared by any sister langauges. It has to be related since /manetwa/ is actually the modern M-I form one would *expect* by sound law from PA */maneto:wa/, *not* /manetoowa/. The long /oo/ isn't supposed to be preserved in modern M-I. In Southern New England Algonquian, the reflexes of */maneto:wa/ usually end up being the ordinary words for 'god'. Apologies if I already posted all this info on this list 6 or 8 years ago. :-) Dave From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jun 17 20:24:59 2002 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 15:24:59 -0500 Subject: Underwater Cat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > There are cosmogonic parallels, as the Underwater Cat and the snake are > > constellated within the same archetypal field--long things. Long tails, > > long bodies. > > Aren't there also cases of derivatives of manitou being used both of > sacred things, or mysterious creatures, including perhaps, watermonsters, > and God? Yes. > > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Tue Jun 18 12:14:25 2002 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 13:14:25 +0100 Subject: SCALC 2002 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Rory I think it counts as a 'vision' Bruce no sign of the works of man in any direction, but > only the weird, jagged landscape, and a single black hawk soaring overhead > against a blue sky studded with white clouds tinted salmon in the early > light of dawn-- this certainly qualifies as one of the magic moments of my > life. > > Rory > Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Tue Jun 18 12:26:55 2002 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 13:26:55 +0100 Subject: =(b)(i) in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I remember thinking during our meeting, when speaking about the modal/aspectual type verb that these are commonly verbs like 'sit', 'stand', 'wish', 'have', 'be' etc. Both Arabic and Persian have examples of these for present continuous and Lakota/Dakota as mentioned uses haN or yaNka. An exception to this is in Uyghur, which I was working on last year for a course, where they use the verb atmaq 'to shoot' to produce a participle form. I can't quite remember how it goes but it is something like elivatqan idim 'I had taken' al>el 'take', -ip>-iv 'participle former', at 'shoot', -qan 'completive suffix' id- 'past' -im 'I'. I remember thinking that this is a very 'archery centred' language. However others may know of this suffix and prove me wrong. Bruce On 3 Jun 2002, at 13:07, Koontz John E wrote: > > At the meeting Linda Cumberland described a class of Assiniboine verbs > which are characterized by embedding same subject complements that require > =pi on the embedded clause verb in the present and =ktA in the past. The > embedded verb has no pronominal prefix. These verbs include forms like > 'want' and 'like to/don't like to'. I don't recall the precise list at > the moment. I hope Linda will comment further when she has time, since > she is looking for similar cases and suggestions of additional candidate > verbs to look at. > From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Tue Jun 18 13:35:27 2002 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 14:35:27 +0100 Subject: wakhan in nominal position In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 918 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Tue Jun 18 13:38:43 2002 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 14:38:43 +0100 Subject: wakhan in nominal position In-Reply-To: <6598EB02.74DF45C4.00A0EF2D@aol.com> Message-ID: Ho hecetu. Pilamayaye. As they say in Arabic. "If someone teaches me but a word, I become to him a slave" Bruce On 6 Jun 2002, at 9:42, napsha51 at aol.com wrote: > taku shkanshkan is never an alternative word for God, it means all those moving/living things that are a part of taku wakxan or wakxan txanka. > > the two words hold a huge power, whether you use, taku wakxan or wakxan txanka, it has a feeling connected to it, when I use the word, taku shkanshkan with it, so I give tobacco for it Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu Tue Jun 18 16:03:22 2002 From: rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu (rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 11:03:22 -0500 Subject: SCALC 2002 Message-ID: Hmm.. Well, if I'd for four days without food or water, I'll bet that hawk would have spoken to me too! Rory > Dear Rory > > I think it counts as a 'vision' > > Bruce >> no sign of the works of man in any direction, but >> only the weird, jagged landscape, and a single black hawk soaring overhead >> against a blue sky studded with white clouds tinted salmon in the early >> light of dawn-- this certainly qualifies as one of the magic moments of my >> life. >> >> Rory >> From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Jun 19 14:05:32 2002 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 15:05:32 +0100 Subject: shooting auxiliary Message-ID: Just in case anyone was iinterested in my Altaic interlude, I have consulted my notes and find that the atmaq 'shoot' auxiliary forms continuatives as in : oquvati menel 'take', -ip>-iv 'participle former', at 'shoot', -qan 'completive suffix' id- 'past' -im 'I'. I remember thinking that this is a very 'archery centred' language. However others may know of this suffix and prove me wrong. Bruce On 3 Jun 2002, at 13:07, Koontz John E wrote: > > At the meeting Linda Cumberland described a class of Assiniboine verbs > which are characterized by embedding same subject complements that require > =pi on the embedded clause verb in the present and =ktA in the past. The > embedded verb has no pronominal prefix. These verbs include forms like > 'want' and 'like to/don't like to'. I don't recall the precise list at > the moment. I hope Linda will comment further when she has time, since > she is looking for similar cases and suggestions of additional candidate > verbs to look at. > ------- End of forwarded message ------- Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From rankin at ku.edu Wed Jun 19 18:39:26 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 13:39:26 -0500 Subject: do/done auxiliary Message-ID: > Just in case anyone was iinterested in my Altaic interlude, I have consulted my notes and find that the atmaq 'shoot' auxiliary forms continuatives as in: >oquvati men oquvaqtmaymen 'I am not reading' > oquvatqan idim oquvatqanda The corresponding perfective suffix is -et from etmek 'to finish', Yes, and it's more generally "do" in several other Turkic languages. There are a number of Siouan parallels that, to my knowledge, have never been systematically explored. The corresponding Siouan verb is *?uN 'do, be' and its common instrumental derivative *i?uN 'use, do with'. ?uN crops up on most Siouan languages as a part of various enclitics signaling 'past' or 'perfective', including but not limited to, Dhegiha -noN/-naN, glossed 'past' by Dorsey, and Dhegiha egoN/egaN 'this done', Dakotan k?uN/echuN. It crops up as a past or perfective in Biloxi also, so it isn't just MVS. Someone needs to trace this auxiliary/enclitic through the system. Bob From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Thu Jun 20 15:06:23 2002 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 10:06:23 -0500 Subject: shooting auxiliary Message-ID: Cool! Thanks, Bruce. Ali liked this too. What do you bet there are languages that use "fish" or "herd" or "spin/knit/weave" as a progressive affix? Catherine From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Thu Jun 20 15:14:07 2002 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 10:14:07 -0500 Subject: do/done auxiliary Message-ID: Bob wrote: ...?uN crops up on most Siouan languages as a part of various enclitics signaling 'past' or 'perfective', including but not limited to, Dhegiha -noN/-naN, glossed 'past' by Dorsey,... Is this the -noN (1st person -noNmoN) that I always gloss "usually" or "habitual"? How would past/perfective give this very IMperfective meaning? Or are there (sigh) TWO -noN suffixes? Catherine From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Thu Jun 20 15:17:26 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 10:17:26 -0500 Subject: do/done auxiliary Message-ID: In Osage certainly -naN / -noN appears post-verb-root and is imperfective, 'habitually, always, usually, continually'. It very often appears in 'past' contexts 'was always verb-ing; always used to verb' . Most often followed by -pe, (from api 'pluralizer' dhe 'declarative' )in 3rd person sentences. Is there another -naN that is 'past' or 'perfective'? How is it used? Carolyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC" To: Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:14 AM Subject: Re: do/done auxiliary > > Bob wrote: > ...?uN crops up on most Siouan > languages as a part of various enclitics signaling > 'past' or 'perfective', including but not limited to, > Dhegiha -noN/-naN, glossed 'past' by Dorsey,... > > Is this the -noN (1st person -noNmoN) that I always gloss "usually" or > "habitual"? How would past/perfective give this very IMperfective meaning? > Or are there (sigh) TWO -noN suffixes? Catherine > > From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Jun 20 17:39:25 2002 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:39:25 +0100 Subject: shooting auxiliary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wouldn't be at all surprised. Did he understand my Uyghur message? Bruce On 20 Jun 2002, at 10:06, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > > Cool! Thanks, Bruce. Ali liked this too. What do you bet there are > languages that use "fish" or "herd" or "spin/knit/weave" as a progressive > affix? > Catherine > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Jun 20 17:50:47 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 11:50:47 -0600 Subject: do/done auxiliary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > Bob wrote: > ...?uN crops up on most Siouan > languages as a part of various enclitics signaling > 'past' or 'perfective', including but not limited to, > Dhegiha -noN/-naN, glossed 'past' by Dorsey,... > > Is this the -noN (1st person -noNmoN) that I always gloss "usually" or > "habitual"? How would past/perfective give this very IMperfective meaning? > Or are there (sigh) TWO -noN suffixes? Catherine I think Bob might be referring mainly to the inflected (?)aN (maN, z^aN, sometimes aN in third) that appears (a) After xti TRUELY, VERY and (s^ > h > zero)naN EXCLUSIVELY. This is often essentially a habitual, but cf. e=(s^)naN 'only' < 'exclusively that', not to be confused with e=naN, never any s^ in older texts,m meaning 'so many, that many'. For that many, there are cases where 'habitual' doesn't quite cut the mustard as a gloss, as Carolyn suggests in her response. This aN auxiliary appears in the first and second persons, e.g., =xti=maN, =(s^)naN=z^aN, etc. [The shift of s^n to hn and modern n in the second persons of n-stems and in the habitual/exclusive is just one of those things students of Omaha-Ponca have to deal with. I can't think of any other s^n clusters that get reduced, e.g., I think not in verb-stem initials like s^naN 'bald', so it's a bit weird.] (b) Before az^i NEG in the first person only, e.g., m(aN)=az^i 'I-NEG'. . (c) In s^te 'any, soever', e.g., =s^te=aN ~ =s^t=aN and =s^te=waN. I have no idea what factors account for the alternation among =s^te, =s^te=aN and =s^te=waN. I'm still recovering from Gdh[e]e'daN=s^te=miN 'Any Hawk Woman' as a name. Or W[e]e'z^iN=s^te 'Any Angry, Willful (ones)' as a clan name. He describes at the least the first cases as a perfective in Quapaw, as I recall. I managed to misplace the paper two moves ago! There is also a dhaN that appears in various post-verbal (and other?) contexts that Dorsey glosses 'past'. At the moment I'm not clear on whether this is or is not part of the evidential complex involving the articles the/khe/dhaN/ge in clause final cases (also as 'when' and in time and place Q-words). There are evidential/when cases of =dhaN, but this may be something different. JEK From rankin at ku.edu Thu Jun 20 18:52:54 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 13:52:54 -0500 Subject: do/done auxiliary Message-ID: > In Osage certainly -naN / -noN appears post-verb-root and is imperfective, > 'habitually, always, usually, continually'. It very often appears in > 'past' contexts 'was always verb-ing; always used to verb' . Most often > followed by -pe, (from api 'pluralizer' dhe 'declarative' )in 3rd person > sentences. Is there another -naN that is 'past' or 'perfective'? How is it > used? For Osage, I'm not sure, because the problem here is one of homophony. The 'habitual' /naN/ is a phonologically reduced form of common Dhegiha *-$naN. In Kaw this morpheme reduced to /hnaN/, but in Osage, apparently it lost all trace of the fricative. This leaves it merged with reflexes of *?uN and my guess is that something had to "give" in the system. Like I said, none of us has ever systematically investigated what's become of the various reflexes of ?uN in the various languages. It would make a nice doctoral dissertation for some ambitious young linguist. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Thu Jun 20 19:05:56 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:05:56 -0500 Subject: do/done auxiliary Message-ID: > ...?uN crops up on most Siouan > languages as a part of various enclitics signaling > 'past' or 'perfective', including but not limited to, > Dhegiha -noN/-naN, glossed 'past' by Dorsey,... > Is this the -noN (1st person -noNmoN) that I always gloss "usually" or > "habitual"? How would past/perfective give this very IMperfective meaning? > Or are there (sigh) TWO -noN suffixes? Catherine I haven't checked it out in Omaha systematically. I generally have it glossed 'past' by Dorsey, who wasn't often very specific about aspect as opposed to tense. Nor am I sure whether modern Omaha and Ponca have reduced the older /$n/ cluster to /hn/ or /n/ like Kaw and Osage. Dorsey (1890) seems to have all three variants in different places. About all I can guarantee is that *?uN has become an AUXILIARY for either tense or aspect (probably always the latter) in a variety of Siouan languages -- perhaps even all of them. And if *uN is conjugated for person, the 1st person is indeed /muN/. [Dakotan has normalized the underived /uN/ (1sg wa?uN) but kept the conservative conjugation in the derived 'use'.] Second person in Dhegiha is /z^aN/ or /z^oN/. Other languages have other outcomes for the *y-. My recollection is (and it may be faulty) that reflexes of *-$naN 'usually, used to, habitual' are never conjugated but that reflexes of *?uN are. John will probably remember the Omaha a lot better than I. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Fri Jun 21 18:40:28 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 13:40:28 -0500 Subject: do/done auxiliary Message-ID: > Is this the -noN (1st person -noNmoN) that I always gloss "usually" or > "habitual"? How would past/perfective give this very IMperfective meaning? > Or are there (sigh) TWO -noN suffixes? Catherine Looking at this more closely ... yes, there are clearly two -naN suffixes in Omaha (or one naN and one dhaN) and you exemplified both. The first is probably the -naN from earlier *-$naN, i.e., the 'habitual' proper, while -maN is the first person of the *other* -naN, the one JOD glosses 'past'. This latter one is the conjugated form of *?uN 'do, be'. It acquires an epenthetic initial -n- or -dh- in Dhegiha like several other V-initial auxiliaries do. And it is the second one of these that I've been referring to in this thread unless I referred specifically to the 'habitual'. Bob From shanwest at uvic.ca Fri Jun 21 22:12:52 2002 From: shanwest at uvic.ca (Shannon West) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 15:12:52 -0700 Subject: Algonquian list In-Reply-To: <001e01c21953$1e634f40$c0b5ed81@oemcomputer> Message-ID: Hi all. I've been working at getting an algonquian list going, and I'm working out a few bugs (like a really really slow server - I could walk the messages to people faster - and I'm not fast). But just to let y'all know that I will get one up and going. Shannon West From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Jun 22 23:51:12 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 17:51:12 -0600 Subject: Virtues Message-ID: I read an interesting article in Plains Anthropologist 47-181: Sundstrom, Linea. 2002. Steel Awls for Stone Age Plainswomen: Rock Art, Religion, and the Hide Trade on the Northern Plains. pp. 99-119. This is an extensive study of the Double Woman (WiNyaN NuNpa) complex. This is a fascinating article that clarifies a number of things about traditional Dakotan (and adjacent) culture for me in ways that I think will help me better understand the Dorsey texts in particular. I think anyone interested in Plains folklore should probably read this. However, I noticed an interesting linguistic or at least lexical point. Sundstrom explains (p. 100) that "Women at powwows wear an awl case to show they are industrious, a strike-a-light bag to show their hospitality, and a knife case to show their generosity (St. Pierre and Long Soldier 1995:77)." This caught my attention because we had recently mentioned in passing that Omaha-Ponca was^us^e means both 'brave' and 'generous' (and Dakotan was^os^e means at least 'brave'). We'd also mentioned in passing the root *s^kaN (appearing throughout the family), which is connected with ideas of movement and activity. I remembered that this is the verb used in some exhortations to "be active" in Omaha-Ponca, and I thought this was probably the relevant root for 'industrious' in an Omaha-Ponca context. I turns out, though that wasi'sige is more common for 'active', and wase'kkaN is 'quick', and associated quality. S^kaN does occur, and u's^kaN (u' cf. Dakotan wo-) is 'business' in Dorsey. I've seen it in modern use to refer to an organized affair, like a handgame, described as u's^k(aN) u'daN 'a good affair'. The phrase used to translate this was "a doings." However, I couldn't think of a term for 'hospitality'. I couldn't find one in Swetland, either. Then I noticed I couldn't find it in Ingham or Buechel, either. My suspicion is that the term is there, but with a different gloss that hasn't occurred to me. I did find 'hospitable' in LaFlesche, who gives gi'-hi doN-he (ki'hi toNhe?). LaFlesche has almost a full column under doN-he 'following the requirements of [honorable] married life'. I don't know the corresponding term in Omaha-Ponca. I think gi'-hi must be a motion verb, perhaps the dative of hi 'to arrive there', i.e., 'to arrive for something; arrive to obtain/fetch something', but this relies on Omaha-Ponca models and the whole construction is obscure to me, As near as I can tell (using mainly Ingham), the Teton terms for the two virtues I can identify are generous: thawac^hiN ...was^te 'mind, disposition' + 'pleasant' (nice stative verb in wa-) generous: c^haNte' ...yukhAN 'heart' + 'to be' (inflected as stative) generous: ox?aN..phi 'to do, to work' + 'good' (stative) generous, good-natured: c^haNl..yuhA 'heart' + 'have' (active) industrious: ...blihec^a (stative), ...blihec^aka (stative) industrious, skilful in making: wakax wo..hitika 'making' + 'furiously, energetically' (stative) industrious: napis^taN(ka) 'an industrious person' I suspect these are not simply synonyms, but without a variety of examples it would be difficult for a linguist to distinguish the shades of meaning. I noticed that Swetland gives for 'generous' in Omaha: noNde udoN 'heart' + 'be good' (dative) which I've encountered widely as 'be glad, be pleased', e.g., noNde iN'udoN 'I am glad, lit. my heart is good or more lit. heart is good for me'. He also gives ushkoN udoN 'generous person' (elucidated as 'you did well') which is just the term I gave above for a 'good doings'. The dsame observations would apply as in the Dakotan case. It would be difficult for a linguist to determine the shades of meaning involved here without a body of examples. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Jun 23 05:36:02 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 23:36:02 -0600 Subject: dhaN 'past' in OP Message-ID: I've been looking at =dhaN glossed "past" or "in the past" in the Dorsey texts. I'd say that it can be glossed something like "used to," though this is not really in the glosses Dorsey offers. He always says "in the past" or just "(past)." So far I've noticed about three contetxs, though there are probably more. 1) Applied to a main verb, where "used to" or "it used to be that" seems to work best. "... e'=di dha'=zhi=a he," ehe' dhaN', s^aN' s^i' e'gaN, ... there dont't go DEC I said PAST yet you arrived there having Don't go there, I [used to] say, and just as soon as you got there ... 1890:17.9 "Ppahe'=wadhahuni ujna'= khe= dhaN t?e'=adhe," a'=bi= ama Hill he eats them you told it CONT PAST I killed him he said QUOT I have killed (the) Devouring Hill that you [used to] tell of," he said. 1890:28.17 "Mm! S^e' c^?e'=dhe u'daN=akh=ama=dhaN. Mm! It [used to] be a good thing [difficult?] to kill that [kind]. E=a'c^haN=xc^i c^?e'=wadhadhe=c^c^e=iNthe," a'=bi=ama how very you kill them IRR PERHAPS she said However does one kill them?" she said 1890:28.17-18 2) applied to a noun, where the idea is something like "which formerly" or "the former." "NaN'ppa=hi= ge= dhaN wiN iN'dhiNgi=ga," a=bi=ama chokecherry bush the PAST one come back with one for me he said "Get me one of the chokecherry bushes about [like you used to]," he said. Preceding sentence: walk to seek medicine for me 1890:36.15 WakkaN'dagi= khe=dhaN wi' t?e'=adhe," a'=bi=ama water monster the PAST I I killed him he said "It's I who killed the water monster [that there used to be]," he said 1890:112:20 3) With a subordinate verb, producing with a sense like "when formerly," or "it used to be that." "Ni'as^iNga=ama e'=di hi'= hnaN=dhaN=di, Person the there he arrived only PAST LOC w[a]a'dhahuni=hnaN=i he,?" a'=bi=ama. he ate them only DEC she said "[It used to be that] if a person just showed up he'd just eat them," she said. Note that in this last sentence Dorsey glosses =hnaN (modern =naN) as 'only' and elaborates by explaining 'only arrived' as 'arrived (as a rule)'. English 'just' seems a good rendition. 1890:32.3-4 JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Jun 23 20:30:59 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 14:30:59 -0600 Subject: dhaN 'past' in OP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Jun 2002, Koontz John E wrote: > I've been looking at =dhaN glossed "past" or "in the past" in the Dorsey > texts. I'd say that it can be glossed something like "used to," though > this is not really in the glosses Dorsey offers. He always says "in the > past" or just "(past)." I should point out that if I'm right about "used to" as a working gloss, that this is a sort of past durative or imperfect. If the gloss is actually something more liek "once" then it would be an aorist or preterite (or perfective). > "... e'=di dha'=zhi=a he," ehe' dhaN', s^aN' s^i' e'gaN, ... > there dont't go DEC I said PAST yet you arrived there having > > Don't go there, I [used to] say, and just as soon as you got there > ... > > 1890:17.9 > > "Ppahe'=wadhahuni ujna'= khe= dhaN t?e'=adhe," a'=bi= ama > Hill he eats them you told it CONT PAST I killed him he said QUOT > > I have killed (the) Devouring Hill that you [used to] tell of," he said. > > 1890:28.17 On reflection, I have realized that khe (a positional auxiliary or article) here is not a continuative. That is, even if Ppahe'=wadhahuni or 'Devouring Hill' governs the khe 'the (lying)' form of the article, it is not the subject here, and so khe isn't a continuative marker. The alternative (and more normal with inanimate articles) is an evidential marker. though this seems a strange context for one. If khe is evidential, then this example shows khe and dhaN cooccurring, which would argue that dhaN cannot be seen as an evidential itself. Unfortunately, what I really have here is a deceptively simple sentence that I don't understand the syntax of. > "Ni'as^iNga=ama e'=di hi'= hnaN=dhaN=di, > Person the there he arrived only PAST LOC > > Note that in this last sentence Dorsey glosses =hnaN (modern =naN) as > 'only' and elaborates by explaining 'only arrived' as 'arrived (as a > rule)'. English 'just' seems a good rendition. > > 1890:32.3-4 Note also that here we have s^naN ~ hnaN ~ naN cooccurring with dhaN, showing that they are different. JEK From rankin at ku.edu Sun Jun 23 20:49:04 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 15:49:04 -0500 Subject: dhaN 'past' in OP Message-ID: > I should point out that if I'm right about "used to" as a working gloss, > that this is a sort of past durative or imperfect. If the gloss is > actually something more liek "once" then it would be an aorist or > preterite (or perfective). I had to come up with an analysis for the Quapaw cognate for the Quapaw sketch I did for the Hardy and Scancarelli volume that will appear someday. This was in about 1994 or 5. I think I decided, based on the autobiography of Alphonsus Valliere I used as a sample of the language, that it should be labeled 'imperfect'. Based on John's examples, I think most of the Dhegiha uses of it sort of fit that mold. Outside of DH I simply have no idea though. We know it forms part of Dakota k-?uN 'this completed...' and the Omaha cognate/analog (e)gaN. Beyond that I don't know. Bob > > > "... e'=di dha'=zhi=a he," ehe' dhaN', s^aN' s^i' e'gaN, ... > > there dont't go DEC I said PAST yet you arrived there having > > > > Don't go there, I [used to] say, and just as soon as you got there > > ... > > > > 1890:17.9 > > > > "Ppahe'=wadhahuni ujna'= khe= dhaN t?e'=adhe," a'=bi= ama > > Hill he eats them you told it CONT PAST I killed him he said QUOT > > > > I have killed (the) Devouring Hill that you [used to] tell of," he said. > > > > 1890:28.17 > > On reflection, I have realized that khe (a positional auxiliary or > article) here is not a continuative. That is, even if Ppahe'=wadhahuni > or 'Devouring Hill' governs the khe 'the (lying)' form of the article, it > is not the subject here, and so khe isn't a continuative marker. The > alternative (and more normal with inanimate articles) is an evidential > marker. though this seems a strange context for one. If khe is > evidential, then this example shows khe and dhaN cooccurring, which would > argue that dhaN cannot be seen as an evidential itself. > > Unfortunately, what I really have here is a deceptively simple sentence > that I don't understand the syntax of. > > > "Ni'as^iNga=ama e'=di hi'= hnaN=dhaN=di, > > Person the there he arrived only PAST LOC > > > > Note that in this last sentence Dorsey glosses =hnaN (modern =naN) as > > 'only' and elaborates by explaining 'only arrived' as 'arrived (as a > > rule)'. English 'just' seems a good rendition. > > > > 1890:32.3-4 > > Note also that here we have s^naN ~ hnaN ~ naN cooccurring with dhaN, > showing that they are different. > > JEK > From rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu Mon Jun 24 19:11:49 2002 From: rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu (rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:11:49 -0500 Subject: dhaN 'past' in OP Message-ID: John wrote: > I've been looking at =dhaN glossed "past" or "in the past" in the Dorsey > texts. I'd say that it can be glossed something like "used to," though > this is not really in the glosses Dorsey offers. He always says "in the > past" or just "(past)." We had a discussion some months ago about OP =the. I felt that this particle represented action accomplished, and could be used as the "had" particle in English, as in "They had gone." (What is that-- the pluperfect??) John and Bob considered it to be the "evidential" particle, and I got put in my place when the speakers agreed with them. Later, I think John pointed out that "action accomplished" type constructions often evolved into evidentials. Anyway, my feeling for the Dorsey texts is that =the does not work well there as an evidential, but that it does work in parallel contrast with =dhaN in both spatial and temporal dimensions. =the refers to a precise spot as a location, or to a specific point or accomplished action in time, while =dhaN refers to a general area in space or to a general period in time. If =dhaN references a period of time in a sentence stating a reality, "past" would seem to be implied. OP =hnaN can be glossed as "just" or "only" when it modifies a noun, but when it comes after a verb it seems to mean that the action is ongoing or especially repetitive. I think the intent is to place the listener's focus right in the middle of it. I'd parse John's =dhaN sentences as follows: >"... e'=di dha'=zhi=a he," ehe' dhaN', s^aN' s^i' e'gaN, ... > there dont't go DEC I said PAST yet you arrived there having > > Don't go there, I [used to] say, and just as soon as you got there ... Or: "there don't=go EMPH" I=said during=that=period=of=time=preceding= your=disobedience, yet you=went=there that=having=taken=place, ... Don't go there, I had told you [over a period of time], yet you went! that=having=happened, ... > "NaN'ppa=hi= ge= dhaN wiN iN'dhiNgi=ga," a=bi=ama > chokecherry bush the PAST one come back with one for me he said > > "Get me one of the chokecherry bushes about [like you used to]," he said. > > Preceding sentence: walk to seek medicine for me Could this be: "chokecherry=bushes the=scattered in=that=area one bring=me" he=reputedly=said "Bring me one of the bushes from the chokecherry patch." By this interpretation, =dhaN would refer to an area, rather than a period of time. > WakkaN'dagi= khe=dhaN wi' t?e'=adhe," a'=bi=ama > water monster the PAST I I killed him he said > > "It's I who killed the water monster [that there used to be]," he said Or: water=monster the=longitudinal in=the=[past]=period=of=time=that=you= know=about I=myself I=killed=him. It's I who killed the water monster that existed in that [past] period of time. > "Ppahe'=wadhahuni ujna'= khe= dhaN t?e'=adhe," a'=bi= ama > Hill he eats them you told it CONT PAST I killed him he said QUOT > > I have killed (the) Devouring Hill that you [used to] tell of," he said. Or: Devouring=Hill you=told=about=it the=lying in=the=[past]=period=of=time= that=you=know=about I=killed=him I killed the Devouring Hill you told about that existed in that [past] period of time. I think this is actually the same as the one above it, but with a subordinate clause between the noun and the =khe. > "Ni'as^iNga=ama e'=di hi'= hnaN=dhaN=di, > Person the there he arrived only PAST LOC > > w[a]a'dhahuni=hnaN=i he,?" a'=bi=ama. > he ate them only DEC she said > > "[It used to be that] if a person just showed up he'd just eat them," she > said. Or: "Person the=multiple there arrive REPETITIVE PAST=PERIOD LOC, he=ate=them REPETITIVE DEC EMPH" she=reputedly=said. "Whenever people would go there, he would eat them." > Unfortunately, what I really have here is a deceptively simple sentence > that I don't understand the syntax of. > Note also that here we have s^naN ~ hnaN ~ naN cooccurring with dhaN, > showing that they are different. I'm pretty sure that the hnaN=dhaN=di here is equivalent to our word "whenever" in referring to a past condition, and if we accept that, the rest of the syntax falls into place. The fact that =hnaN and =dhaN cooccur doesn't actually prove that they are different in meaning: sometimes one might use two equivalent terms to produce a third term with a specialized emphatic sense. However, I agree that they are different here. =dhaN indicates the past period of time, and =hnaN implies that the action is repetitive. In fact, I would group them separately: (Ni'as^iNga=ama) (e'=di (hi'=hnaN)) (dhaN=di), (The=people) (there (would=arrive)) (in=that=period), Or: (The=people) (there (would=arrive)) (when), > "Mm! S^e' c^?e'=dhe u'daN=akh=ama=dhaN. > > Mm! It [used to] be a good thing [difficult?] to kill that [kind]. This one throws me. I'm not sure how to understand the =akh=ama here, which I would normally read as "this is the one (subject), they say." Suggestions? Rory From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Tue Jun 25 17:23:57 2002 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 18:23:57 +0100 Subject: Virtues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In the connection of virtues the wors wauNs^ilapi or wowauns^ila which in biblical contexts comes to mean 'mercifulness', 'mercy' is probabbly just general 'kindness' and seems to be one virtue often referred to or the absence of it. It may in a nomadic society imply quite often 'hospitality' I suppose. On 22 Jun 2002, at 17:51, Koontz John E wrote: > > However, I couldn't think of a term for 'hospitality'. I couldn't find > one in Swetland, either. Then I noticed I couldn't find it in Ingham or > Buechel, either. My suspicion is that the term is there, but with a > different gloss that hasn't occurred to me. > > I did find 'hospitable' in LaFlesche, who gives gi'-hi doN-he (ki'hi > toNhe?). LaFlesche has almost a full column under doN-he 'following the > requirements of [honorable] married life'. I don't know the corresponding > term in Omaha-Ponca. I think gi'-hi must be a motion verb, perhaps the > dative of hi 'to arrive there', i.e., 'to arrive for something; arrive to > obtain/fetch something', but this relies on Omaha-Ponca models and the > whole construction is obscure to me, > > As near as I can tell (using mainly Ingham), the Teton terms for the two > virtues I can identify are > > generous: thawac^hiN ...was^te 'mind, disposition' + 'pleasant' (nice > stative verb in wa-) > > generous: c^haNte' ...yukhAN 'heart' + 'to be' (inflected as stative) > > generous: ox?aN..phi 'to do, to work' + 'good' (stative) > > generous, good-natured: c^haNl..yuhA 'heart' + 'have' (active) > > industrious: ...blihec^a (stative), ...blihec^aka (stative) > > industrious, skilful in making: wakax wo..hitika 'making' + > 'furiously, energetically' (stative) > > industrious: napis^taN(ka) 'an industrious person' > > I suspect these are not simply synonyms, but without a variety of examples > it would be difficult for a linguist to distinguish the shades of meaning. > > I noticed that Swetland gives for 'generous' in Omaha: > > noNde udoN 'heart' + 'be good' (dative) > > which I've encountered widely as 'be glad, be pleased', e.g., noNde > iN'udoN 'I am glad, lit. my heart is good or more lit. heart is good for > me'. He also gives > > ushkoN udoN 'generous person' (elucidated as 'you did well') > > which is just the term I gave above for a 'good doings'. The dsame > observations would apply as in the Dakotan case. It would be difficult > for a linguist to determine the shades of meaning involved here without a > body of examples. > > JEK > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Jun 26 04:00:00 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 22:00:00 -0600 Subject: Pine and the List Message-ID: A little testing as the behest of Kathy Shea suggests that Unix-based users of Pine can interact better with Windows based recipients of the list by going to the main menu > setup > config and scrolling down to the bottom of the config options to set the character set to US-ASCII. I do not know if this really changes the font, or just causes Pine to generate mail headers that claim this is occurring. Without this folks at KU were seeing letters from myself (and they also mention Ardis) as a message from the system in the body of the letter and the letter itself as an attachment. The text in the attachment was difficult to read - none of the usual Windows attachments could handle it. It is not clear to me whether this problem arises when the reader is Outlook or Outlook Express, or when the site mail hander is the Microsoft product (in some versions). The discussion of this at www.google.com was rather confusing. Anyway, if you use Pine, please consider making this change. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Jun 27 05:38:00 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 23:38:00 -0600 Subject: Virtues In-Reply-To: <3D18B53D.10080.185A4E6@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 bi1 at soas.ac.uk wrote: > In the connection of virtues the wors wauNs^ilapi or wowauns^ila > which in biblical contexts comes to mean 'mercifulness', 'mercy' is > probabbly just general 'kindness' and seems to be one virtue often > referred to or the absence of it. It may in a nomadic society imply > quite often 'hospitality' I suppose. Thanks, Bruce! This seems like a plausible suggesion. With that hint, I recall that the Omaha-Ponca texts refer the feeding of strangers or enemies frequently as a sign that they were treated well and no killed. A variety of terms are used: niN'tta gigaNdha 'to desire someone to live' iu'gdhaN=khidhe 'to cause to put (food) in the mouth' dhathe=khidhe 'to cause to eat' In one story certain Pawnees tell others not kill a visitor because 'he has finished eating, finished drinking, finished smoking'. In at least some of the stories, it is specifically the role of the woman of the house to feed the guest or petitioner in situations like this. 'To be merciful; to pity' is dha?e=...dhe (a causative). JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Jun 27 17:27:54 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:27:54 -0600 Subject: Virtues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A little editing of my composition: > Thanks, Bruce! This seems like a plausible suggesion. With that > hint, I recall that the Omaha-Ponca texts refer the feeding of > strangers or enemies frequently[,] as a sign that they were [to be] > treated well and no[t] killed. A variety of terms are used: ... > 'To be merciful; to pity' is dha?e=...dhe (a causative). I looked for a cognate in Dakotan, and found only yak?e 'wolf', which matches dha?e in form, but not very well in meaning. I believe that cognates of *rak?e=...re are widespread in Dhegiha. I supposed it might be *rax?e=...re - I'd have to check the Quapaw form. The rest merge *x? and *k? as k?, which becomes ? in OP. . JEK From jggoodtracks at juno.com Thu Jun 27 17:40:53 2002 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:40:53 -0500 Subject: Virtues Message-ID: Among Ioway-Otoe traditional culture, any enemy (ukihje) who made it into the village and entered the home of an IOM was considered to have safe refuge, and was fed & offered hospitality. In the same manner, any aggrieved IOM charged with offening another, could seek refuge & sanctity of the Sacred Pipe, asking that it be offered to the threatening distressed person(s), whom would be obligated to accept it. As such, early day explorers & traders used/ displayed a Sacred Pipe to various unknown tribes, to secure safe passage. In a family way, a child who makes it to the safe refuge of the grandparent, would not be further hassled by the parent. nat^udan = to pity (heart depressed towards) Nat^u'hinradan = You pity me. Nat^u'hindan�ye = I am pitied (Literally: "they pity me"). Nat^u'rigradan = I pity you, my own one. Nat^u'kikidanwi = They (dual) pity one another. On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 23:38:00 -0600 (MDT) Koontz John E writes: > On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 bi1 at soas.ac.uk wrote: > > > In the connection of virtues the wors wauNs^ilapi or wowauns^ila > > which in biblical contexts comes to mean 'mercifulness', 'mercy' > is > > probabbly just general 'kindness' and seems to be one virtue often > > referred to or the absence of it. It may in a nomadic society > imply > > quite often 'hospitality' I suppose. > > Thanks, Bruce! This seems like a plausible suggesion. With that > hint, I > recall that the Omaha-Ponca texts refer the feeding of strangers or > enemies frequently as a sign that they were treated well and no > killed. > A variety of terms are used: > > niN'tta gigaNdha 'to desire someone to live' > iu'gdhaN=khidhe 'to cause to put (food) in the mouth' > dhathe=khidhe 'to cause to eat' > > In one story certain Pawnees tell others not kill a visitor because > 'he > has finished eating, finished drinking, finished smoking'. > > In at least some of the stories, it is specifically the role of the > woman > of the house to feed the guest or petitioner in situations like > this. > > 'To be merciful; to pity' is dha?e=...dhe (a causative). > > JEK > From rankin at ku.edu Thu Jun 27 21:10:00 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 16:10:00 -0500 Subject: ?uN as AUX V. Message-ID: Apropos our recent discussion of the meaning(s)/use(s) of reflexes of Proto-Siouan ?uN 'do, be' as some sort of past (perfective or imperfective) and probably-aspectual auxiliary, I was just going over an old paper of mine on Biloxi aspiration and ran across this obvious entry in Dorsey and Swanton's 1912 Biloxi dictionary: uNni 'sign of continuous action' (?) with various examples (p. 284, and the ? is Dorsey's). This pretty much confirms Catherine's and John's notion that this aux. functions as an imperfective marker. Thus far I have no feeling for when you would use reflexes of *?uN and when you might use positionals, but presumably the distinction is that one that exists between 'continuative aspect' and 'imperfective aspect'. Bob From Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com Fri Jun 28 17:31:46 2002 From: Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com (Anthony Grant) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 18:31:46 +0100 Subject: ?uN as AUX V. Message-ID: Dear Bob: Interestingly enough, forms of both 'do' and 'be' are used in English-lexifier creoles and/or AAVE to express habitual aspect. Guyanese has /doz/, for instance, and AAVE's use of 'be' is well-known through William Labov's work. Best Anthony ----- Original Message ----- From: R. Rankin To: Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 10:10 PM Subject: Re: ?uN as AUX V. > Apropos our recent discussion of the meaning(s)/use(s) > of reflexes of Proto-Siouan ?uN 'do, be' as some sort > of past (perfective or imperfective) and > probably-aspectual auxiliary, I was just going over an > old paper of mine on Biloxi aspiration and ran across > this obvious entry in Dorsey and Swanton's 1912 Biloxi > dictionary: > > uNni 'sign of continuous action' (?) with various > examples (p. 284, and the ? is Dorsey's). This pretty > much confirms Catherine's and John's notion that this > aux. functions as an imperfective marker. Thus far I > have no feeling for when you would use reflexes of *?uN > and when you might use positionals, but presumably the > distinction is that one that exists between > 'continuative aspect' and 'imperfective aspect'. > > Bob > From rankin at ku.edu Fri Jun 28 18:22:06 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 13:22:06 -0500 Subject: Siouan ?uN and AAVE 'be' Message-ID: Two language families! I guess that makes it official "UG". 8-} Bob From shanwest at uvic.ca Fri Jun 28 18:38:29 2002 From: shanwest at uvic.ca (Shannon West) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 11:38:29 -0700 Subject: Siouan ?uN and AAVE 'be' In-Reply-To: <001101c21ed0$b6afca80$d1b5ed81@oemcomputer> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of R. Rankin > Sent: June 28, 2002 11:22 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Siouan ?uN and AAVE 'be' > > > Two language families! I guess that makes it official > "UG". 8-} Thanks Noa... uhh... Bob. :) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Jun 30 18:17:55 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 12:17:55 -0600 Subject: dhaN 'past' in OP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Jun 2002 rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu wrote: > Anyway, my feeling for the Dorsey texts is that =the does not work > well there as an evidential, but that it does work in parallel > contrast with =dhaN in both spatial and temporal dimensions. > =the refers to a precise spot as a location, or to a specific point > or accomplished action in time, while =dhaN refers to a general > area in space or to a general period in time. If =dhaN references > a period of time in a sentence stating a reality, "past" would seem > to be implied. I seem to recall some discussion of this the : dhaN temporal contrast by Dorsey - maybe in the notes and parenthetical comments in the texts? I'm wondering if it applies only in 'when' clauses or temporal adverbs constructed from demonstratives, articles, and "post positions." If so, I'd take it as applying with the use of the et al. as evidentials, and perhaps separate from the additional (separate) use of dhaN as a past marker. > OP =hnaN can be glossed as "just" or "only" when it modifies a noun, > but when it comes after a verb it seems to mean that the action is > ongoing or especially repetitive. I think the intent is to place > the listener's focus right in the middle of it. I agree that the marker is all of these things. I think the progression of ideas is 'just, only' => 'nothing but, exclusively' => something like a habitual. As I recall, the just glosses appear with s^naN and verbs, too, in Dorsey. > > "NaN'ppa=hi= ge= dhaN wiN iN'dhiNgi=ga," a=bi=ama > > chokecherry bush the PAST one come back with one for me he said > > > > "Get me one of the chokecherry bushes about [like you used to]," he said. > > > > Preceding sentence: walk to seek medicine for me > > Could this be: > "chokecherry=bushes the=scattered in=that=area one bring=me" > he=reputedly=said > > "Bring me one of the bushes from the chokecherry patch." > > By this interpretation, =dhaN would refer to an area, rather than a > period of time. The "about" in my rendition represented a nod to the 'scattered' sense of ge 'the scattered'. I went with Dorsey's 'past' gloss for dhaN, because series of articles are unusual, and because there were parallels of this use of a past marker with nouns. I just happened to pick this one as the example. [I know it must seem sometimes like I don't edit, but I really do - some.] > > WakkaN'dagi= khe=dhaN wi' t?e'=adhe," a'=bi=ama > > water monster the PAST I I killed him he said > > > > "It's I who killed the water monster [that there used to be]," he said > > Or: > water=monster the=longitudinal in=the=[past]=period=of=time=that=you= > know=about > I=myself I=killed=him. > > It's I who killed the water monster that existed in that [past] > period of time. By this logic we should find khe=the (or some article + the) as well as article + dhaN, so this should be easy enough to test. > > "Ppahe'=wadhahuni ujna'= khe= dhaN t?e'=adhe," a'=bi= ama > > Hill he eats them you told it CONT PAST I killed him he said QUOT > > > > I have killed (the) Devouring Hill that you [used to] tell of," he said. > > Or: > Devouring=Hill you=told=about=it the=lying in=the=[past]=period=of=time= > that=you=know=about > I=killed=him > > I killed the Devouring Hill you told about that existed in that [past] > period of time. > > I think this is actually the same as the one above it, but with a > subordinate clause between the noun and the =khe. That's kind of an unusual pattern of embedding. > > "Mm! S^e' c^?e'=dhe u'daN=akh=ama=dhaN. > > > > Mm! It [used to] be a good thing [difficult?] to kill that [kind]. > > This one throws me. I'm not sure how to understand the =akh=ama here, > which I would normally read as "this is the one (subject), they say." > Suggestions? I think that I mistranslated - the akh(a)=ama is under the dhaN, so it would have to be something like 'they used to say it was' not '(they say) it used to be'. I suppose udaN=akh(a) would have to be 'the good one', too, not, 'a good thing', so maybe it's more like: Mm! that (kind) : to kill : the good one : they used to say (it was) a killer? (one was?) Or 'they used to say (one was) a good one to kill that (kind)' The sense is about the same, but details count in grammar. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Jun 30 18:36:30 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 12:36:30 -0600 Subject: ?uN as AUX V. In-Reply-To: <000501c21e1f$00f0dd80$c0b5ed81@oemcomputer> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, R. Rankin wrote: > This pretty much confirms Catherine's and John's notion that this aux. > functions as an imperfective marker. Thus far I have no feeling for > when you would use reflexes of *?uN and when you might use > positionals, but presumably the distinction is that one that exists > between 'continuative aspect' and 'imperfective aspect'. This Biloxi case and the Quapaw one do seem to confirm the imperfective reading. Of course, we wouldn't necessarily find that languages as diverse as Biloxi and Dhegiha would have exactly the same uses of the markers. In Dhegiha the continuative pattern of use with the articles must be more recent, and may have preempted a lot of the sphere of *?uN. The pieces of it that are left in OP seem somewhat specialized and fragmentary. Only dhaN seems at all productive. The use of aN with the with =xti and with =s^naN looks somewhat fossilized, and with the negative and =s^te even more so. It occurs to me that =daN in temporal uses - I think it figures as 'when' in Osage, though not in OP - might be *=d(u") LOCATIVE + *aN IMPERF-AUX. There are some cases of daN in OP that read like 'during': haN=daN 'during (the) night' 1890:17.20 egasaNi=daN 'during (the) next day' 1890:370.5 me'=daN 'during (the) spring' 1890:393.7 Otherwise the gloss 'during' applies to dhedhu(adi) (with clauses) and a particle de. This is sort of icing on the cake - it's nice to know where things may come from, even little particles - but not necessary to the pursuit of *?uN as a part marker. If I've missed a widespread particle *taN 'during', let me know! From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Jun 30 18:37:52 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 12:37:52 -0600 Subject: ?uN as AUX V. (fwd) Message-ID: Ambushed by a 'reply to' anomaly. This was intended for the list. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 13:54:44 -0600 (MDT) From: Koontz John E To: Anthony Grant Subject: Re: ?uN as AUX V. On Fri, 28 Jun 2002, Anthony Grant wrote: > Interestingly enough, forms of both 'do' and 'be' are used in > English-lexifier creoles and/or AAVE to express habitual aspect. Guyanese > has /doz/, for instance, and AAVE's use of 'be' is well-known through > William Labov's work. I believe this is the usual explanation for the Latin -b- imperfects (and futures), too. JEK From rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu Mon Jun 3 17:57:50 2002 From: rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu (rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 12:57:50 -0500 Subject: SCALC 2002 Message-ID: I just wanted to say it was really nice meeting all you fine people at the SCALC conference. I had a wonderful time, and look forward to seeing you all again next year. Hopefully, everybody had a safe trip back. If we ever get up that way again, may I suggest getting lost on foot in the Badlands as a delightful early morning activity? Wandering a few gullies away from the boardwalk, sliding to the bottom of a ravine down a slope too steep to climb back up again, scrambling to the top of a nearby ridge, looking around to see no sign of the works of man in any direction, but only the weird, jagged landscape, and a single black hawk soaring overhead against a blue sky studded with white clouds tinted salmon in the early light of dawn-- this certainly qualifies as one of the magic moments of my life. Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Jun 3 18:34:24 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 12:34:24 -0600 Subject: SCALC 2002 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'll second the comment that it was great to see so many Siouanists (and one lone Caddoanist) again. Those of you who weren't there were missed and missed a great conference, hosted by Dick Carter, in pleasant surroundings. John Boyle picked great local restaurants and does as urbane a job of herding cats as any Siouanist ever has, dead or alive. I'm hoping we'll get a post on the venue for the next meeting soon. I am afraid that I managed to be absent when this was resolved. I think I may have been listening to long vowels in some very sing-songy Assiniboine at the time. I have several rumors and fragments of information, but I'm not sure they go together! On Mon, 3 Jun 2002 rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu wrote: > If we ever get up that way again, may I suggest getting lost on foot in the > Badlands as a delightful early morning activity? ... Uh, just out of curiosity, you're not still lost, right? In this age of wireless networks and Java-enabled cellphones, and given the diffidence of some scholarly pesonalities, it might be worth asking. Armik and I took a route home that he recommended that led us out through Hot Springs via Chadron and Scottsbluff (it IS a bluff!) through the Nebraska National Forest. The reports that this is an inside joke for something more like the Nebraska National Grasslands appear to be greatly exagerated. It's at least as forested as Colorado's Black Forest (no connection with the Bavarian one) and has some interesting chalk formations, especially at Crawfurd (sp?). We saw some fantastic lightning displays south of Harrison. Fortunately they stayed outside the car. One or two looked like wire trash baskets growing upward. I think this is old Oglala territory and I can see why they hung out here. It was also nice to see Spearfish Canyon again (twice), and full of Juneberry (Saskatoon?), right on the mark (1 June). Are the shad blowing anywhere? JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Jun 3 19:07:33 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 13:07:33 -0600 Subject: =(b)(i) in Dhegiha Message-ID: Since several people are interested in this issue, including some Dakotanists, I'll post an interesting development from the SACC this year. Incidentally, there is no official abbreviation for this very informal conference, but SACC = Siouan And Caddoan Conference, while SCALC is, I think Siouan and CAddoan (or Annual?) Linguistics Conference. At the meeting Linda Cumberland described a class of Assiniboine verbs which are characterized by embedding same subject complements that require =pi on the embedded clause verb in the present and =ktA in the past. The embedded verb has no pronominal prefix. These verbs include forms like 'want' and 'like to/don't like to'. I don't recall the precise list at the moment. I hope Linda will comment further when she has time, since she is looking for similar cases and suggestions of additional candidate verbs to look at. It occurred to me that this might explain two things about Dhegiha syntax that are a bit perplexing. 1) The future is embedded under a positional article, usually forms of dhiNkhe 'to sit' in the first and second persons, and forms of akha/ama in the third person. For example bdhe=tta miNkhe 'I will go'. 2) Third person singular proximates (not obviatives) are marked with *=pi (usually > =i in Omaha-Ponca, sometimes =bi, and usually > =p=a/e - adding male/female declarative particles - in Osage, sometimes =pi, etc.). This particle is homophonous with the plural marker used with inclusive, second, and third plurals. The first case might arise from a use of a construction comparable to the one Linda reports (but requiring pronominal prefixes) under superordinate positionals with the original sense 'I sit that I would ...', i.e., 'I would that ...', subsequently reinterpreted as a simple future. Note that the inflected suffixal future auxiliary in Crow and Hidatsa looks like a heavily reduced version of the Dhegiha futures, too, so this may be something that has happened several times, independently, and no doubt with different details, within Siouan. The second case might arise from a construction like 's/he says that s/he ...'. If the superordinate verb were one that tended to be zeroed for phonological or structural reasons, then the =(p)i might be left as the sole marking of this reportative sort of construction and I think it is not unreasonable to suppose that such a construction would be more proximate than the non-reportative, leading porentially to a contrast of =pi (proximate) vs. [zero] obviative. The obviative forms or the forms taken as obviative would also naturally occur in embedded contexts, which is definitely the distribution in Dhegiha as well. The verb 'to say' in Dhegiha has a complex allomorphy, but the third person stem, as in Chiwere and Winnebago is e (ablauts to a, e.g., a=i 'he says' in OP). Note that an additional vowel, albeit apparently varying with gender, does actually occur with =pi in Osage and, I think Kaw: =p=a/e (Kaw =b=e at least). In addition, as Rory Larson has pointed out, =bi tends to appear in reportative subordinate contexts in Omaha-Ponca, e.g., under 'think'. This might also explain the quotative =bi=am(a) as from =bi ab(i) REPORTED they-say. It's possible that the superordinate verb might be something like 'to be', as well, but that is also essentially *e in the third person. I think that this is an approach to explaining the Dhegiha future and proximate =pi that is well worth considering. It might also prove a fruitful way of looking at nominalizing =pi in Dakotan. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Jun 3 19:15:59 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 13:15:59 -0600 Subject: History of SACC/SCALC Message-ID: Does anyone have handy a list of the locations for SACC since its inception? JEK From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Jun 3 19:28:33 2002 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 12:28:33 -0700 Subject: andative Message-ID: Hello all... This doesn't have anything directly to do with Siouan, but I figured this was a good venue to ask this question. I just got the page proofs back of an article on Shawnee I'm publishing, where I used the term 'andative'. The editor of the journal is requesting that I either reconsider the term or add a footnote explaining it. (I guess he'd never seen the term before?) I'm using the term 'andative' to describe a preverb that Carl Voegelin consistently translated in his Shawnee texts as 'go and' or 'go do X' as in the following example: Hoowe "keh-pah-natonehaape wa-miiciyakwe". then | we (incl.) will go look for it | what we (incl.) will eat Then (she said) "let's go look for something to eat". (the andative preverb here is the /pah-/.) Now, this morpheme has no cognates I'm aware of elsewhere in Algonquian, so there's no ready-made term I can borrow for it. Moreover, I'm not aware of anything any linguist has ever called an andative in any other Algonquian language. I chose to call it 'andative' since I have a memory, at least 12 years old, of being told about something in, I think, Wintuan that was translated the same way. Now the question: does anyone out there have any opinions of their own about what an 'andative' is, or, alternately, is anyone aware of another name for a morpheme like this? If 'andative' is the right name for this, it would be very helpful if I could have a straightforward bibliographical reference discussing an andative used the same way as this in another language (it doesn't have to be Algonquian). thanks much, Dave Costa From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Mon Jun 3 19:46:41 2002 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 14:46:41 -0500 Subject: =(b)(i) in Dhegiha Message-ID: Definitely worth thinking about. Do we know what -(p/b)i was originally? It seems to do an awful lot of things in various languages. In these Assiniboine constructions it (and -kta) really look like an "infinitive" marker of some kind -- a complementizer? modality head? same-subject marker? In any case it introduces a clause with obligatory same subject and no person-marking. Not unlike -- dare I say it? -- "to" in English. If something like this (with deleted or bleached matrix verb) is the source of Omaha future and proximate forms, it seems just a little odd that we don't get the -(b)i and -ta on complements of verbs like "want" ... Not terribly odd, since it might have survived only in fossilized corners of the grammar, but still a tiny bit odd. If I remember correctly the pi vs. kta split in Linda's Assiniboine data was positive/negative (or realized/unrealized or some such), not present/past. Koontz John E cc: Sent by: Subject: =(b)(i) in Dhegiha owner-siouan at lists.c olorado.edu 06/03/02 02:07 PM Please respond to siouan Since several people are interested in this issue, including some Dakotanists, I'll post an interesting development from the SACC this year. Incidentally, there is no official abbreviation for this very informal conference, but SACC = Siouan And Caddoan Conference, while SCALC is, I think Siouan and CAddoan (or Annual?) Linguistics Conference. At the meeting Linda Cumberland described a class of Assiniboine verbs which are characterized by embedding same subject complements that require =pi on the embedded clause verb in the present and =ktA in the past. The embedded verb has no pronominal prefix. These verbs include forms like 'want' and 'like to/don't like to'. I don't recall the precise list at the moment. I hope Linda will comment further when she has time, since she is looking for similar cases and suggestions of additional candidate verbs to look at. It occurred to me that this might explain two things about Dhegiha syntax that are a bit perplexing. 1) The future is embedded under a positional article, usually forms of dhiNkhe 'to sit' in the first and second persons, and forms of akha/ama in the third person. For example bdhe=tta miNkhe 'I will go'. 2) Third person singular proximates (not obviatives) are marked with *=pi (usually > =i in Omaha-Ponca, sometimes =bi, and usually > =p=a/e - adding male/female declarative particles - in Osage, sometimes =pi, etc.). This particle is homophonous with the plural marker used with inclusive, second, and third plurals. The first case might arise from a use of a construction comparable to the one Linda reports (but requiring pronominal prefixes) under superordinate positionals with the original sense 'I sit that I would ...', i.e., 'I would that ...', subsequently reinterpreted as a simple future. Note that the inflected suffixal future auxiliary in Crow and Hidatsa looks like a heavily reduced version of the Dhegiha futures, too, so this may be something that has happened several times, independently, and no doubt with different details, within Siouan. The second case might arise from a construction like 's/he says that s/he ...'. If the superordinate verb were one that tended to be zeroed for phonological or structural reasons, then the =(p)i might be left as the sole marking of this reportative sort of construction and I think it is not unreasonable to suppose that such a construction would be more proximate than the non-reportative, leading porentially to a contrast of =pi (proximate) vs. [zero] obviative. The obviative forms or the forms taken as obviative would also naturally occur in embedded contexts, which is definitely the distribution in Dhegiha as well. The verb 'to say' in Dhegiha has a complex allomorphy, but the third person stem, as in Chiwere and Winnebago is e (ablauts to a, e.g., a=i 'he says' in OP). Note that an additional vowel, albeit apparently varying with gender, does actually occur with =pi in Osage and, I think Kaw: =p=a/e (Kaw =b=e at least). In addition, as Rory Larson has pointed out, =bi tends to appear in reportative subordinate contexts in Omaha-Ponca, e.g., under 'think'. This might also explain the quotative =bi=am(a) as from =bi ab(i) REPORTED they-say. It's possible that the superordinate verb might be something like 'to be', as well, but that is also essentially *e in the third person. I think that this is an approach to explaining the Dhegiha future and proximate =pi that is well worth considering. It might also prove a fruitful way of looking at nominalizing =pi in Dakotan. JEK From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon Jun 3 20:01:35 2002 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 14:01:35 -0600 Subject: =(b)(i) in Dakotan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi everyone, Sounds like I missed a terrific meeting. I'll try not to let that happen again, but it was certainly crucial to everyone else's happiness around here that I stay here for the weekend. The pi/kta discussion reminds me of something that I only vaguely remember, but which someone who works with Lakota in Canada, or Dakota, should tell us more about. In the relative clause construction in Sioux Valley, according to some 60's or 70's work by either Pat Shaw or Jack Chambers or Valerie Drummond or some combination thereof, the clauses were said to end in either -g (from ki) or -b (from pi); can anyone recall or find out what these marked? As for the -kta on embedded verbs, that's one more reminder (if we needed it) that that is NOT a future marker, but irrealis; if you "want" something from the past, you apparently didn't get it, so the embedded clause is an unreal statement. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From dvklinguist at hotmail.com Mon Jun 3 20:21:21 2002 From: dvklinguist at hotmail.com (David Kaufman) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 20:21:21 +0000 Subject: andative Message-ID: Hi David, >>From an etymological standpoint, I think your term is appropriate since this is from the Latin verb 'andare' meaning 'to walk' or 'go' showing that this morpheme is used in this 'going' or 'walking' sense. I don't think I've heard the term elsewhere, but then I'm just getting into Native American linguistics and most of my language studies have been related to European languages, so... Hope this might help. Dave Kaufman MA, Linguistics dvklinguist at hotmail.com >From: "David Costa" >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: andative >Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 12:28:33 -0700 > >Hello all... > >This doesn't have anything directly to do with Siouan, but I figured this >was a good venue to ask this question. > >I just got the page proofs back of an article on Shawnee I'm publishing, >where I used the term 'andative'. The editor of the journal is requesting >that I either reconsider the term or add a footnote explaining it. (I guess >he'd never seen the term before?) I'm using the term 'andative' to describe >a preverb that Carl Voegelin consistently translated in his Shawnee texts >as >'go and' or 'go do X' as in the following example: > >Hoowe "keh-pah-natonehaape wa-miiciyakwe". >then | we (incl.) will go look for it | what we (incl.) will eat >Then (she said) "let's go look for something to eat". > >(the andative preverb here is the /pah-/.) > >Now, this morpheme has no cognates I'm aware of elsewhere in Algonquian, so >there's no ready-made term I can borrow for it. Moreover, I'm not aware of >anything any linguist has ever called an andative in any other Algonquian >language. I chose to call it 'andative' since I have a memory, at least 12 >years old, of being told about something in, I think, Wintuan that was >translated the same way. > >Now the question: does anyone out there have any opinions of their own >about >what an 'andative' is, or, alternately, is anyone aware of another name for >a morpheme like this? If 'andative' is the right name for this, it would be >very helpful if I could have a straightforward bibliographical reference >discussing an andative used the same way as this in another language (it >doesn't have to be Algonquian). > >thanks much, > >Dave Costa > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Jun 3 20:26:19 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 14:26:19 -0600 Subject: andative In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, David Costa wrote: > I just got the page proofs back of an article on Shawnee I'm publishing, > where I used the term 'andative'. The editor of the journal is requesting > that I either reconsider the term or add a footnote explaining it. (I guess > he'd never seen the term before?) I'm using the term 'andative' to describe > a preverb that Carl Voegelin consistently translated in his Shawnee texts as > 'go and' or 'go do X' as in the following example: There are serial verb constructions in Mississippi Valley Siouan that mean '[some motion] and ...' but the scheme is restricted to motion verb + positional with senses like 'go and stand'. I don't recall the contexts of exx. like this in Omaha, and never knew them in Dakotan. Unfortunately, as far as I can recollect, these have no name. Maybe the publisher would prefer something more like Classical Latin, e.g., ambulative? Departitive? I think andative may seem sort of "barbarous," combining an Italian or Spanish root with Latinate morphology. Or is andare attested for Classical Latin? Verb tenses in Chadic languages that mean 'came and X' or 'come X-ing' are called ventives. This is sort of burned into my brain from an experience with Chadic in times past. Cases for motion away in nominal systems are called ablative or elative, too, for that matter. Siouanists, at least, have no hesitation about calling certain verbal constructions "dative." When the genius of the language is to do it with verbs, you tend to go and use nominal terminology with verbs. . From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Jun 3 21:21:36 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 15:21:36 -0600 Subject: =(b)(i) in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > Do we know what -(p/b)i was originally? The only function - I think - that has been commented upon in comparative studies has been plurality. All Siouan languages have one or more pluralizers used in about the same way, but *=pi is restricted to Mississippi Valley in that shape and any attempts to recognize it in pluralizers elsewhere are speculative. I've done some of that before, but I won't repeat it here. > ... In these Assiniboine constructions it (and -kta) really look like > an "infinitive" marker of some kind -- a complementizer? modality > head? same-subject marker? In any case it introduces a clause with > obligatory same subject and no person-marking. Not unlike -- dare I > say it? -- "to" in English. This is one reason I thought it might clarify the nominalizing =pi in Dakotan. > If something like this (with deleted or bleached matrix verb) is the source > of Omaha future and proximate forms, it seems just a little odd that we > don't get the -(b)i and -ta on complements of verbs like "want" ... Not > terribly odd, since it might have survived only in fossilized corners of > the grammar, but still a tiny bit odd. We do get =bi in the context of reported complements and other clauses. Off the top of my head, it occurs with e=...dh=e=gaN 'to think' and in egaN and kki clauses. And under quotative ama. Also under the the and khe evidentials, when followed by ama. These are admittedly all cases in which same-subject is generally not even a possibility, and the =bi acts more like a marker of indirect speech combined with - I think - proximateness. It did occur with 'want' in the Assiniboine data, but that seemed a bit of an outlier in the glosses, I think. In OP I'm not sure I've noticed much in the way of complementizers. Are there any? Usually both main verb and subordinate are both inflected and come in sequence. You might be able to argue that the first co-verb, gaN in OP ...gaN=...dha, was a complementizer, perhaps based on the gaN in things like e=gaN 'like that', though we know that this is actually a contraction of gi dative (?) and aN 'do'. > If I remember correctly the pi vs. kta split in Linda's Assiniboine data > was positive/negative (or realized/unrealized or some such), not > present/past. I'll have to check that. JEK From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Jun 3 21:37:14 2002 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 14:37:14 -0700 Subject: andative Message-ID: I should also point out that I searched for the word 'andative' on the web. Needless to say there were very few results, but one reference did come up: Mithun, Marianne. 1988. 'The Grammaticalization of Coordination.' In: Haiman, John, and Sandra Thompson. (eds.) Clause Combining in Grammar and Discourse. Amsterdam: John Benjamins. Apparently, in this article, Mithun uses the term 'andative' in regards to a construction found in Iroquois. I don't happen to own this book, can anyone out there shed any light on how she uses the term 'andative' in this article? thanks, Dave Costa From jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu Mon Jun 3 21:36:42 2002 From: jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu (John Boyle) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:36:42 -0500 Subject: History of SACC/SCALC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Does anyone have handy a list of the locations for SACC since its >inception? > >JEK Here is a list of all of the conferences except 1994 - does anyone know where that one was held? John Boyle ------ Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 1 - Boulder, CO, June, 1981 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 2 - Medora, ND, May, 1982 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 3 - Rapid City, SD, May, 1983 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 4 - University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, July, 1984 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 5 - Tulsa, OK (May 24, 1985) Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 6 - Wisconsin Rapids, WI, April 1986 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 7 - Boulder, CO., June 1987 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 8 - Billings, MT, June 1988 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 9 - Morley, Alberta, Canada, 1989 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 10 - (Held with the Mid-America Linguistics conference) Lawrence, KA. 1990 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 11 - Stillwater, OK, Autumn 1991 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 12 - University of Missouri, Columbia, MO, Autumn 1992 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 13 - (Held with the Mid-America Linguistics conference) Boulder, CO, Autumn 1993 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 14 - 1994 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 15 - (Held with the Linguistic Institute) Albuquerque, NM, July 1995 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 16 - Billings, MT, June, 1996 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 17 - Wayne State University, Wayne, NE, June, 1997 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 18 - Indiana University, Bloomington, June, 1998 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 19 - Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada (June 11-12, 1999) Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 20 - Anadarko, OK. June 2000 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 21 - University of Chicago, Chicago, IL. June 2001. Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 22 - Black Hills State University. Spearfish, South Dakota (May 31 - June 1, 2002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu Tue Jun 4 13:19:54 2002 From: rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu (rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:19:54 -0500 Subject: SCALC 2002 Message-ID: > On Mon, 3 Jun 2002 rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu wrote: >> If we ever get up that way again, may I suggest getting lost on foot in the >> Badlands as a delightful early morning activity? ... John: > Uh, just out of curiosity, you're not still lost, right? In this age of > wireless networks and Java-enabled cellphones, and given the diffidence of > some scholarly pesonalities, it might be worth asking. No, I'm safely back in Lincoln. I might be diffident, but I'm not that technologically enabled, and I probably wouldn't be feeling so poetic about the experience if I were still there. With the sun near the horizon direction was obvious, and it proved disappointingly easy to get out. I just climbed another slope, flipped over the top of a ridge, and fell out almost in front of my truck. Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Jun 4 13:38:14 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 07:38:14 -0600 Subject: listproc error (fwd) Message-ID: Posted for Armik Mirzayan: I would like to also re-iterate what John and Rory have already said. It was a wonderful meeting and it was fun seeing so many Siouanists again, and meeting others that I had not met before. I hope we all get to see each other again next year. > > If we ever get up that way again, may I suggest getting lost on foot in the > > Badlands as a delightful early morning activity? ... > I agree! Some of the hikes in the Badlands are really incredible, and you can also look to see what interesting fossils you can spot after a rainstorm, which typically washes a lot of mud down and exposes new material. > Armik and I took a route home that he recommended that led us out through > Hot Springs via Chadron and Scottsbluff (it IS a bluff!) through the > Nebraska National Forest. The reports that this is an inside joke for > something more like the Nebraska National Grasslands appear to be greatly > exagerated. It's at least as forested as Colorado's Black Forest (no > connection with the Bavarian one) and has some interesting chalk > formations, especially at Crawfurd (sp?). We saw some fantastic lightning > displays south of Harrison. Fortunately they stayed outside the car. > One or two looked like wire trash baskets growing upward. I think this is > old Oglala territory and I can see why they hung out here. > There is something magical about this part of Nebraska. All 3 times that I have been through this area I have experienced some amazing lightning works. It's a great place to go to if you like bluffs and forest and are really awed by watching incredible and sudden weather changes and cloud formations. Although John and I didn't get to go in, there are also the Agate Fossil beds just south of Harrison. -Armik From voorhis at westman.wave.ca Tue Jun 4 14:45:39 2002 From: voorhis at westman.wave.ca (voorhis at westman.wave.ca) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 09:45:39 -0500 Subject: =(b)(i) in Dakotan Message-ID: ROOD DAVID S wrote: > The pi/kta discussion reminds me of something that I only vaguely > remember, but which someone who works with Lakota in Canada, or Dakota, > should tell us more about. In the relative clause construction in Sioux > Valley, according to some 60's or 70's work by either Pat Shaw or Jack > Chambers or Valerie Drummond or some combination thereof, the clauses > were said to end in either -g (from ki) or -b (from pi); can anyone recall > or find out what these marked? -b is still plural. In relative clauses it is a contraction of pi g (from pi ki). Incidentally, around here ki is still kiN, with the nasal vowel, when people take the care not to reduce it to g. But saying kiN instead of g seems to be akin to pronouncing the English definite article like thee, instead of with schwa, even before consonants. pi kta~e contracts to pta~e. Paul Brandon MB, Canada From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Tue Jun 4 17:12:39 2002 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 10:12:39 -0700 Subject: andative In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Siouanists and David Costa, I found this discussion of the term andative very interesting. The Northern Iroquoian languages have a not uncommon suffix that means to go somewhere and do something, quite parallel to the meaning we get in English with go fishing, go bowling, etc. In my 1967 Seneca Morphology and Dictionary I called it the transient suffix, but wasn't happy with that. Later some of us called it the dislocative, but I didn't like that much either. Then, I believe at SSILA meetings, I heard other people using the term andative for quite the same meaning in other languages. I seem to remember Catherine Callaghan, among others, doing that, although I could be wrong. I started telling other Iroquoianists that we ought to be using that term because it was what everybody else was doing. Now I'm very surprised to hear that it isn't so familiar to others after all. Does that mean that Siouanists and Algonquianists are out of touch, or that I am? I'm wondering if I should apologize to other Iroquoianists for telling them this had become a standard term for this kind of meaning, which I believe is very common among the languages of the world. It's certainly a meaning that needs a name, I thought it had one, but should we all go back to start??? Wally Chafe From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Tue Jun 4 18:42:40 2002 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 13:42:40 -0500 Subject: History of SACC/SCALC Message-ID: No information on 1994 -- just a couple of picky compulsive-proofreader notes, in case this is going into some kind of permanent public record... 1. Kansas is KS, not KA 2. The institution in Wayne, NE is Wayne State College. Wayne State University is an entirely different institution, in Detroit. Here is a list of all of the conferences except 1994 - does anyone know where that one was held? John Boyle ------ Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 1 - Boulder, CO, June, 1981 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 2 - Medora, ND, May, 1982 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 3 - Rapid City, SD, May, 1983 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 4 - University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, July, 1984 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 5 - Tulsa, OK (May 24, 1985) Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 6 - Wisconsin Rapids, WI, April 1986 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 7 - Boulder, CO., June 1987 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 8 - Billings, MT, June 1988 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 9 - Morley, Alberta, Canada, 1989 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 10 - (Held with the Mid-America Linguistics conference) Lawrence, KA. 1990 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 11 - Stillwater, OK, Autumn 1991 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 12 - University of Missouri, Columbia, MO, Autumn 1992 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 13 - (Held with the Mid-America Linguistics conference) Boulder, CO, Autumn 1993 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 14 - 1994 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 15 - (Held with the Linguistic Institute) Albuquerque, NM, July 1995 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 16 - Billings, MT, June, 1996 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 17 - Wayne State University, Wayne, NE, June, 1997 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 18 - Indiana University, Bloomington, June, 1998 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 19 - Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada (June 11-12, 1999) Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 20 - Anadarko, OK. June 2000 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 21 - University of Chicago, Chicago, IL. June 2001. Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 22 - Black Hills State University. Spearfish, South Dakota (May 31 - June 1, 2002) From rankin at ku.edu Tue Jun 4 18:58:44 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 13:58:44 -0500 Subject: andative Message-ID: >Maybe the publisher would prefer something more like Classical Latin, e.g., ambulative? Departitive? I think andative may seem sort of "barbarous," combining an Italian or Spanish root with Latinate morphology. Or is andare attested for Classical Latin? Don't think it's attested in the classical language. Romanists have quibbled for decades about the etymology of SP andar, IT andare, trying to relate it to FR aller. It really doesn't relate phonologically. Ambulare is the putative source, but Robert Hall reconstructed amDare or the like, where D was the Greek upper case letter delta. Very creative, but not satisfying. The problem is getting from the l to the d -- the u drops out regularly. I don't have an answer for Wally's query -- Siouanists may indeed just be out of touch. Some term is needed. Does Uralic or NE Caucasian (i.e., language families with really, really extensive case systems) have a satisfactory term that Eurocentric editors would accept? Bob From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Tue Jun 4 19:19:36 2002 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 12:19:36 -0700 Subject: andative In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Please don't decide on ambulative. I started using that term in the 1960s for a Seneca suffix that means to do something while walking: he's singing while walking, etc. The meaning of the andative, or whatever, is that the event in question takes place only after going somewhere. It has more to do with the end point than the starting point, so departitive isn't so good. Wally > Maybe the publisher would prefer something more like Classical Latin, > e.g., ambulative? Departitive? I think andative may seem sort of > "barbarous," combining an Italian or Spanish root with Latinate > morphology. Or is andare attested for Classical Latin? From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Jun 4 19:37:28 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 13:37:28 -0600 Subject: Ks. not Ka. (was Re: History of SACC/SCALC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Jun 2002, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > 1. Kansas is KS, not KA Bob insists on Ks for Kaw, too, though these have always confused me. When I worked for the Postal Service years ago, I noticed people always had problems with NB (New Brunswick) for NE (braska), and Mich (Michoacan) for Michigan (Michoagan?). Now, thanks to the Internet, we have more confusing two letter abbreviations than you can shake a stick at. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Jun 4 20:28:17 2002 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 15:28:17 -0500 Subject: Ks. not Ka. (was Re: History of SACC/SCALC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes. My letters to the W.I. (West Indies) often go to Wisconsin and then return to me. Also, Oklahoma is OK but Indiana is IN. On Tue, 4 Jun 2002, Koontz John E wrote: > On Tue, 4 Jun 2002, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > > 1. Kansas is KS, not KA > > Bob insists on Ks for Kaw, too, though these have always confused me. > When I worked for the Postal Service years ago, I noticed people always > had problems with NB (New Brunswick) for NE (braska), and Mich (Michoacan) > for Michigan (Michoagan?). Now, thanks to the Internet, we have more > confusing two letter abbreviations than you can shake a stick at. > > > > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu "Talking is often a torment for me, and I need many days of silence to recover from the futility of words. C.G. Jung "...as a dog howls at the moon, I talk." Rumi From mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu Tue Jun 4 21:32:56 2002 From: mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Marianne Mithun) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 14:32:56 -0700 Subject: andative In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear David, I've seen the term 'andative' to mean 'go and ...' so much for so many languages that I'm quite surprised that the editor hasn't heard of it. It's probably that we all become the most familiar with the terms that cover the categories of languages we look at the most. This term sometimes has a counterpart 'come and ...' that is called a 'venitive'. If it would help to have an example to point to, I just pulled this off the shelf: Mithun, Marianne 2001. Actualization patterns in grammaticalization: from clause to locative morphology in Northern Iroquoian. _Actualization: Linguistic Change in Progress_. Henning Andersen, ed. 143-168. Amsterdam: John Benjamins. (There's an example on page 147m example (6)b.) Best, Marianne On Tue, 4 Jun 2002, David Costa wrote: > > Wally: > > Thanks for this informative response. I personally think 'andative' is > indeed a legitimate name for the Shawnee preverb I'm describing in my > article, but the editor of the volume seems not to have heard of the term > before, and wants me to provide some reference to prove that it's a real > term and that I'm using it the right way. Do you happen to know of a > published source on an Iroquoian language where this morpheme is actually > *called* an andative, and where it's stated that it means something like 'go > and do X' or 'go X'? > > thanks much, > > Dave Costa > > ---------- > >From: Wallace Chafe > >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > >Cc: mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu > >Subject: Re: andative > >Date: Tue, Jun 4, 2002, 10:12 am > > > > > Dear Siouanists and David Costa, > > > > I found this discussion of the term andative very interesting. The Northern > > Iroquoian languages have a not uncommon suffix that means to go somewhere > > and do something, quite parallel to the meaning we get in English with go > > fishing, go bowling, etc. In my 1967 Seneca Morphology and Dictionary I > > called it the transient suffix, but wasn't happy with that. Later some of us > > called it the dislocative, but I didn't like that much either. Then, I > > believe at SSILA meetings, I heard other people using the term andative for > > quite the same meaning in other languages. I seem to remember Catherine > > Callaghan, among others, doing that, although I could be wrong. I started > > telling other Iroquoianists that we ought to be using that term because it > > was what everybody else was doing. Now I'm very surprised to hear that it > > isn't so familiar to others after all. Does that mean that Siouanists and > > Algonquianists are out of touch, or that I am? I'm wondering if I should > > apologize to other Iroquoianists for telling them this had become a standard > > term for this kind of meaning, which I believe is very common among the > > languages of the world. It's certainly a meaning that needs a name, I > > thought it had one, but should we all go back to start??? > > > > Wally Chafe > > > > > From Zylogy at aol.com Tue Jun 4 22:10:59 2002 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 18:10:59 EDT Subject: andative Message-ID: To Wally: ambulative, hmmm... Yahgan has one, then: haina. Also ugulu flying, datu running (straight), tolli running (hither and yon), guleni diving, wonari swimming and lots more. Would be great to have nice Latinate terms for these. Are there other affixes like this in Iroquoian? Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu Tue Jun 4 22:21:47 2002 From: jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu (John Boyle) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 17:21:47 -0500 Subject: History of SACC/SCALC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Catherine, I just pulled the locations off of the Siouan Bibliography. Surly someone must have been at the 1994 conference. Now I'm really curious! John >No information on 1994 -- just a couple of picky compulsive-proofreader >notes, in case this is going into some kind of permanent public record... >1. Kansas is KS, not KA >2. The institution in Wayne, NE is Wayne State College. Wayne State >University is an entirely different institution, in Detroit. > > > > >Here is a list of all of the conferences except 1994 - does anyone know >where that one was held? > >John Boyle > >------ >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 1 - Boulder, CO, June, 1981 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 2 - Medora, ND, May, 1982 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 3 - Rapid City, SD, May, 1983 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 4 - University of Manitoba, >Winnipeg, July, 1984 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 5 - Tulsa, OK (May 24, 1985) > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 6 - Wisconsin Rapids, WI, April >1986 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 7 - Boulder, CO., June 1987 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 8 - Billings, MT, June 1988 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 9 - Morley, Alberta, Canada, 1989 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 10 - (Held with the Mid-America >Linguistics conference) Lawrence, KA. 1990 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 11 - Stillwater, OK, Autumn 1991 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 12 - University of Missouri, >Columbia, MO, Autumn 1992 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 13 - (Held with the Mid-America >Linguistics conference) Boulder, CO, Autumn 1993 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 14 - 1994 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 15 - (Held with the Linguistic >Institute) Albuquerque, NM, July 1995 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 16 - Billings, MT, June, 1996 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 17 - Wayne State University, Wayne, >NE, June, 1997 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 18 - Indiana University, >Bloomington, June, 1998 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 19 - Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada >(June 11-12, 1999) > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 20 - Anadarko, OK. June 2000 > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 21 - University of Chicago, >Chicago, IL. June 2001. > >Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference 22 - Black Hills State University. >Spearfish, South Dakota (May 31 - June 1, 2002) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Jun 5 00:56:00 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 18:56:00 -0600 Subject: History of SACC/SCALC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Jun 2002, John Boyle wrote: > I just pulled the locations off of the Siouan Bibliography. Surly > someone must have been at the 1994 conference. Now I'm really > curious! I'm fairly sure at this point that there was no 1994 SACC. I seem to remember this happening, in one of the intervals in which the scheduling of the meeting changed. In addition, though the evidence is negative, I notice that I have directories under the SACC directory on my hard drive for 1989 to 1999, less 1994. After that I started putting the directories in another location. It's possible that somebody else might havea recollection that would confirm this. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Jun 5 01:14:54 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:14:54 -0600 Subject: =(b)(i) in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > If I remember correctly the pi vs. kta split in Linda's Assiniboine data > was positive/negative (or realized/unrealized or some such), not > present/past. My apologies in advance to Linda in case I misrepresent anything. I now have the handout before me, though not the paper. The examples were: che'yaka 'should, must do' pi should be respected [Linda thought this example should be rejected.] c?iN'ka 'to want' pi want to go/know kta [didn't want to go (? written in by me and may be misconstrued)] don't want to take snokya 'to know' pi don't know how to do s^kaN' 'try to do' kta tried to fight even tried to sit beside thawuN'khas^iN 'hate to do' pi hates to move around pi hate to die was^te'naz 'like to do' pi like to eat waho'ya 'promise' kta promised to do wayu'phi 'be skilled at' pi don't know how to drive I've forgotten how Linda characterized this, but I think it must be something like pi for intention, and kta for completed/avoided JEK From dvklinguist at hotmail.com Wed Jun 5 05:33:16 2002 From: dvklinguist at hotmail.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 22:33:16 -0700 Subject: Oooops! Message-ID: Sorry--I have to back up on my statement about andare coming from Latin. I checked a Latin dictionary today and to my dismay and displeasure there was no "andare" at least not in Classical Latin. Which then leads one to wonder where It. andare, Sp. and Port. andar come from!? Eeeek! Perhaps it came about in the "vulgar" dialects somehow. Dave Kaufman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ullrich.j at soupvm.cz Wed Jun 5 14:19:51 2002 From: ullrich.j at soupvm.cz (Jan F. Ullrich) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:19:51 +0200 Subject: wakhan in nominal position In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Siouanists In the term WakhaN' ThaN'ka the adjectival stative verb wakhan (to be sacred/mysterious/supernatural/incomprehensible) stands in the nominal position and is followed by another adjectival stative verb (thaN'ka ? to be big/large/great). I have been trying to figure out why the stative verb wakhaN' isn't nominalized here, e.g. with the wo- prefix, wo'wakhaN. Not being able to recall or find any other examples of such nominal use of stative verbs makes me wonder whether the term WakhaN' ThaN'ka was introduced by missionaries. Buechel used the term in his translation of bible into Lakhota (1939), but I do not know what Riggs used in his biblical translation into Dakhota (probably in second half of 18th century), because I haven't seen a copy of it. Interestingly the early missionaries among eastern Dakotan tribes (Riggs, Pond brothers) do not mention the term WakhaN' ThaN'ka. Instead Riggs informs us that the Dakhotas use Ta'ku WakhaN' (Something Sacred) for designation of deities (ta'ku = something). Beginning with the late 19 century records, WakhaN' ThaN'ka has been used both for Christian God as well as for the Supreme Deity of Lakhotas. Could it be that Riggs (or other missionary) created the term WakhaN' ThaN'ka as a translation for God, because he knew the word wakhaN to be the most sacral one? And without knowing the grammar well enough, he put it into nomilal position? And the term spread and became part of the sacral language and the Lakhotas even started using it for their own Supreme Deity? Or am I wrong and such constructions are found elsewhere in the language? If the assumption of missionary introduction is correct it would have to mean that the use of wakhaN' in nominal position has been accepted, because we can find analogies in WakhaN' Shi'ca and WakhaN' Washte'. I have been searching all available texts and material and besides WakhaN' ThaN'ka I found WakhaN' Shi'ca - !Bad Supernatural" and WakhaN' Washte' ? "Good Supernatural" (both in a Red Clouds speech reprinted in DeMallie: Lakota Belief and Ritual, page 140). Big Turkey (in Lakota Tales and Texts) also uses WakhaN' Shi'ca. Of course Buechel's dictionary has both WakhaN' ThaN'ka and WakhaN' Shi'ca ? the later being used for Devil. Can anyone help with this? Any hints from Dorsey's materials? He was a missionary as well, right? Any comparative possibilities? I know some of the other Siouan tribes use Wak(h?)aNda. Thanks for any help. Jan P.S.: does anyone know where to get a copy of Riggs's Bible in Dakhota? Jan Ullrich www.inext.cz/siouan --- Odchoz? zpr?va neobsahuje viry. Zkontrolov?no antivirov?m syst?mem AVG (http://www.grisoft.cz). Verze: 6.0.368 / Virov? b?ze: 204 - datum vyd?n?: 29.5.2002 From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Jun 5 14:48:39 2002 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 09:48:39 -0500 Subject: Oooops! Message-ID: According to J. Corominas, Sp. andar, It. andare, and Fr. aller (and Cat., Prov., dial. Rum. forms) are ultimately from Lat. ambulare. Alan From BARudes at aol.com Wed Jun 5 15:09:08 2002 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 11:09:08 EDT Subject: Oooops! Message-ID: Dave, Bob Rankin gave the history correctly in an earlier responses to RE: Andare. Andare is not attested for Classical or Vulgar Latin. Bob Hall proposed a reconstruction *amDlare (where D represents a Greek Delta -- an arbitrary symbol used to represent an uncertain sound) to account for It. andare, Sp. andar, Pt. andar, as well as Franco-Provencal and Provencal anar and French aller. He related *amDlare to Latin ambulare, assuming syncope of the second vowel and assimilation of mb to l. There are a number of problems with the reconstruction, among which are the fact that reflexes of purported *amDlare are attested only in Italo-Western Romance -- no cognate is found in Romanian, Dalmatian, Sardinian or even in Rheto-Romance (Western Romance) and some Italian dialects (Italo-Romance). Second, the cluster *mbl that supposedly resulted from the syncope of the second vowel of ambulare would have been a unique cluster in Proto-Romance, and thus its outcome would be unpredictable (which might explain the otherwise unique correspondene of Northern French /l/ to /n/ in the rest of Western Romance and Italian -- Bob Hall assumed that -mbl- > -mDl- > -ndl- > -nn- (Italo-Western except Northern French)/-ll- (Northern French). As Bob Rankin noted, *amDlare was not a very satisfactory reconstruction for Proto-Romance. Blair From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Jun 5 15:19:57 2002 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 10:19:57 -0500 Subject: Oooops! Message-ID: BARudes at aol.com wrote: > There are a number of problems with the > reconstruction, among which are the fact that reflexes of purported *amDlare > are attested only in Italo-Western Romance -- no cognate is found in > Romanian, Dalmatian, Sardinian or even in Rheto-Romance (Western Romance) and > some Italian dialects (Italo-Romance). Corominas cites dial. Rumanian ?mnare and Rhaeto-Romanic amnad. Alan From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Jun 5 15:17:27 2002 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:17:27 +0100 Subject: Spearfish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Missing yo'all already Bruce Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Jun 5 15:59:30 2002 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 08:59:30 -0700 Subject: Andative: conclusion Message-ID: Hello all: Thanks for all the feedback. The impression I get from the various people who've emailed me is that despite the etymologically weird origins of the word 'andative' (I'm not even sure if the stress lands on the first or the second syllable, tho the 1st syllable sounds better to me), it IS a valid linguistic term, in established use at least among Americanists. The term is obviously rare, but it dates back at least 40+ years. In addition to the very helpful recent Iroquoian references I received, I've been informed that it appears in Freeland and Broadbent's 1960 "Central Sierra Miwok Dictionary with Texts". It might be a Penutian phenomenon in general, since it also pops up in Barker's 1963 grammar of Klamath, as well as that grad-school colleague of mine who used it for Patwin. That's good enough for me, so I'm keeping the term. thanks, Dave Costa From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Jun 5 16:23:00 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 10:23:00 -0600 Subject: Andative: conclusion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, David Costa wrote: > That's good enough for me, so I'm keeping the term. If reduplicated, is the form molto andante, piu barbarosa? Anyway, we can clearly make use of andative and ventitive in describing some of the patterns of motion verb compounds in Mississippi Valley Siouan. I think Allan Taylor is on record somewhere as saying that he thought that the term vertitive might be more properly versive in terms of Latin derivational morphology. Not that we need to "fix" it, but clearly there's precedent for neologistic Latinisms. Incidentally, the term vertitive was coined by Terry Kaufman and first taken up by Bob Hollow in his 1965 Mandan dictionary, and then by Taylor for Dakotan and other motion verbs (Taylor 1876:288). This may be where the comment on versive occurs, but I'm not sure. Incidentally, the term second dative was invented by Dorsey (see the notes in Dorsey 1885) and taken up by Boas and Deloria 1941. I think David Rood concluded that Allan Taylor is the one who first applied ablauting to Siouan final vowel alternations. I'm not sure where the oft reviled expression locative originates. I think "syncopating/ed" applied to the "irregular" or "second" conjugations may be my fault. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Jun 5 16:37:38 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 10:37:38 -0600 Subject: wakhan in nominal position In-Reply-To: <000001c20c9c$0f3ea370$1801a8c0@soupvm.cz> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, Jan F. Ullrich wrote: > In the term WakhaN' ThaN'ka the adjectival stative verb wakhan (to be > sacred/mysterious/supernatural/incomprehensible) stands in the nominal > position and is followed by another adjectival stative verb (thaN'ka ? to be > big/large/great). This is very interesting detective work - a case of Siouan philology, in fact. > Any hints from Dorsey's materials? He was a missionary as well, right? > Any comparative possibilities? I know some of the other Siouan tribes use > Wak(h?)aNda. Omaha-Ponca has wakkaN'da, Osage wahkaN'ta, etc. The kk/hk set would correspond to Dakotan kh. A Dakota equivalent would be something like *wakhaNl- ~ wakhaN'ta. Dhegiha also has forms like OP wakkaN'dagi 'water monster' (or 'doctor' in some Dhegiha languages), which looks strangely like it has the Dakotan article added. I think that the Omaha Shell Society (and the Mide complex generally) may moderate some of this terminology, since it involves both a water monster and doctoring in its basis story. Both these terms are nominal in OP, and there are various other nouns with wa-prefixes, some from stative sources, like wasa'be 'black bear'. There is also a class of stative verbs in wa-, e.g., wa..khe'ga 'be sick' and wa..s^u's^e 'be brave, generous': aNwa(N)'s^us^e 'I am generous' (bad form to say), wadhi's^us^e 'you are generous', etc. Finally, there are at least some other anomalous compounds in OP, e.g., the name iNs^ta' maN'ze 'iron eye' (or 'glinting eye'?). The pattern here of modified noun + modifying noun (treated as a stative?) is different, but I've always thought that this, and maybe some other examples that slip my mind, suggest that there are still some mysteries to the syntax of (relatively) simple NPs in Siouan languages. JEK From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Wed Jun 5 16:58:57 2002 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 09:58:57 -0700 Subject: Andative: conclusion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: All this makes me feel a little better about andative, which is definitely accented on the first syllable. I did remember it as having been used with respect to Miwok, and it's good to be reminded of Sylvia Broadbent. I wonder if there's been a confusion of venitive (see Marianne's message) with vertitive. I remember quite clearly having discussions about the latter term with Terry Kaufman in Berkeley during the 1960s. We were both bothered by the fact that linguists sometimes used the term inchoative for the become meaning, as in it's getting cold etc. Inchoative seemed more appropriate for what's otherwise called the inceptive. It may well have been Terry who came up with vertitive as more appropriate for the become meaning, and it then received some currency in Berkeley at the time. In spite of that, Iroquoianists still consistently use inchoative for that meaning. Just an added bit of terminological history. Wally > Anyway, we can clearly make use of andative and ventitive in describing > some of the patterns of motion verb compounds in Mississippi Valley > Siouan. > > I think Allan Taylor is on record somewhere as saying that he thought that > the term vertitive might be more properly versive in terms of Latin > derivational morphology. Not that we need to "fix" it, but clearly > there's precedent for neologistic Latinisms. > > Incidentally, the term vertitive was coined by Terry Kaufman and first > taken up by Bob Hollow in his 1965 Mandan dictionary, and then by Taylor > for Dakotan and other motion verbs (Taylor 1876:288). This may be where > the comment on versive occurs, but I'm not sure. From dvklinguist at hotmail.com Wed Jun 5 17:06:00 2002 From: dvklinguist at hotmail.com (David Kaufman) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 17:06:00 +0000 Subject: Oooops! Message-ID: Blair, Thanks for the "andare" lesson. Interesting. It would be interesting perhaps to check some old Spanish/Portuguese/Italian texts and see what verb form they may have been using soon after the break-off from Classical Latin. A good project for me to do some time! Dave >From: BARudes at aol.com >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: Oooops! >Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 11:09:08 EDT > >Dave, > >Bob Rankin gave the history correctly in an earlier responses to RE: >Andare. >Andare is not attested for Classical or Vulgar Latin. Bob Hall proposed a >reconstruction *amDlare (where D represents a Greek Delta -- an arbitrary >symbol used to represent an uncertain sound) to account for It. andare, Sp. >andar, Pt. andar, as well as Franco-Provencal and Provencal anar and French >aller. He related *amDlare to Latin ambulare, assuming syncope of the >second >vowel and assimilation of mb to l. There are a number of problems with the >reconstruction, among which are the fact that reflexes of purported >*amDlare >are attested only in Italo-Western Romance -- no cognate is found in >Romanian, Dalmatian, Sardinian or even in Rheto-Romance (Western Romance) >and >some Italian dialects (Italo-Romance). Second, the cluster *mbl that >supposedly resulted from the syncope of the second vowel of ambulare would >have been a unique cluster in Proto-Romance, and thus its outcome would be >unpredictable (which might explain the otherwise unique correspondene of >Northern French /l/ to /n/ in the rest of Western Romance and Italian -- >Bob >Hall assumed that -mbl- > -mDl- > -ndl- > -nn- (Italo-Western except >Northern >French)/-ll- (Northern French). As Bob Rankin noted, *amDlare was not a >very >satisfactory reconstruction for Proto-Romance. > >Blair _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From BARudes at aol.com Wed Jun 5 17:06:13 2002 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 13:06:13 EDT Subject: Oooops! Message-ID: Alan, Most of my reference works on Romanian and Rheto-Romance are at my university office, whereas I am at home until Friday. I will give you a more detailed response then. Meanwhile, here is what the Dictionarul Explicativ al Limbii Roma^ne (Bucharest: Editura Academiei Republicii Socialiste Roma^nia, 1975) has to say on the subject of the Romanian forms: Page 993: Umbla, umblu, v. I. Intranz. I.1. A se deplasa dintr-un loc in altui (to move from one place to another); a merge (to go); ... [Var. : (inv. si pop. (learned and local) i^mbla vb. 1] - Lat. ambulare]. If I remember correctly, the dialectal form i^mnare (which by the way is a noun, not an infinitive since Latin infinitives became Romanian nouns (compare Romanian avere 'possessions' and French avoir 'have'); infinitives in Romanian are rare (normally found only after forms of the verb a putea 'be able' in the standard dialect) and lack the infinitive suffix of Latin (Proto-Romance)) is a regular, dialect internal development (assimilation), of umbla/i^mbla 'go, move' . Thus, the Romanian forms can be derived directly from ambulare without any intermediate Proto-Romance form *amDlare. I also believe (but will have to check) that there is some question about whether this verb was inherited directly from Proto-Romance or is a later (learned) addition to the language. I will get back to you on the Rheto-Romance forms. Blair From dvklinguist at hotmail.com Wed Jun 5 17:18:43 2002 From: dvklinguist at hotmail.com (David Kaufman) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 17:18:43 +0000 Subject: Oooops! Message-ID: Blair, Just out of curiosity, where can I get a copy of an all-Rumanian dictionary similar to what you have referenced (other than in Rumania!)? While I've studied Rumanian, as I have all the principal Romance languages, I don't have much practice with it, but I find having a dictionary completely in the foreign language is helpful for building vocabulary as well as for etymological reasons. Thanks, Dave K. >From: BARudes at aol.com >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: Oooops! >Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 13:06:13 EDT > >Alan, > >Most of my reference works on Romanian and Rheto-Romance are at my >university >office, whereas I am at home until Friday. I will give you a more detailed >response then. Meanwhile, here is what the Dictionarul Explicativ al >Limbii >Roma^ne (Bucharest: Editura Academiei Republicii Socialiste Roma^nia, 1975) >has to say on the subject of the Romanian forms: > >Page 993: Umbla, umblu, v. I. Intranz. I.1. A se deplasa dintr-un loc in >altui (to move from one place to another); a merge (to go); ... [Var. : >(inv. >si pop. (learned and local) i^mbla vb. 1] - Lat. ambulare]. > >If I remember correctly, the dialectal form i^mnare (which by the way is a >noun, not an infinitive since Latin infinitives became Romanian nouns >(compare Romanian avere 'possessions' and French avoir 'have'); infinitives >in Romanian are rare (normally found only after forms of the verb a putea >'be >able' in the standard dialect) and lack the infinitive suffix of Latin >(Proto-Romance)) is a regular, dialect internal development (assimilation), >of umbla/i^mbla 'go, move' . Thus, the Romanian forms can be derived >directly from ambulare without any intermediate Proto-Romance form >*amDlare. >I also believe (but will have to check) that there is some question about >whether this verb was inherited directly from Proto-Romance or is a later >(learned) addition to the language. > >I will get back to you on the Rheto-Romance forms. > >Blair _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From rankin at ku.edu Wed Jun 5 17:19:18 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:19:18 -0500 Subject: History of SACC/SCALC Message-ID: > I'm fairly sure at this point that there was no 1994 SACC. Hmmm, I don't recall there being any years in the '90's when we didn't have a conference. It's been pretty much every year, I think, since very early on. But I don't remember things by dates, I'm afraid. It's possible, but I surely don't recall any lapses. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Wed Jun 5 17:32:25 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:32:25 -0500 Subject: History of SACC/SCALC Message-ID: I stand corrected. I checked my vita and find that I had no SCALC paper listed for '94. I did, however, have a paper on "Quapaw Positionals" listed for MALC here in Lawrence that year. If we met at all, it would have been informally at the Oct. MALC that year. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Wed Jun 5 18:09:07 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 13:09:07 -0500 Subject: =(b)(i) in Dhegiha Message-ID: I found the full form, /-api/, as a quantifier -- i.e., a separate word -- at least twice in Deloria or Riggs' Dakota texts while writing my classifiers paper recently. I sent it to Sara, who'll know which set of texts it was in. It's also attested as a separate enclitic, /-api ~ -ape/, in La Flesche's Osage I think. I don't have the citations here with me, but the latter instances are laid out in my paper explaining "Ablaut" in Quapaw. So even within Mississippi Valley Siouan it's attested as an incompletely grammaticalized quantifier in addition to it's affixal pluralizer status. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Koontz John E [mailto:John.Koontz at colorado.edu] Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 4:22 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: =(b)(i) in Dhegiha On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > Do we know what -(p/b)i was originally? The only function - I think - that has been commented upon in comparative studies has been plurality. All Siouan languages have one or more pluralizers used in about the same way, but *=pi is restricted to Mississippi Valley in that shape and any attempts to recognize it in pluralizers elsewhere are speculative. I've done some of that before, but I won't repeat it here. > ... In these Assiniboine constructions it (and -kta) really look like > an "infinitive" marker of some kind -- a complementizer? modality > head? same-subject marker? In any case it introduces a clause with > obligatory same subject and no person-marking. Not unlike -- dare I > say it? -- "to" in English. This is one reason I thought it might clarify the nominalizing =pi in Dakotan. > If something like this (with deleted or bleached matrix verb) is the source > of Omaha future and proximate forms, it seems just a little odd that we > don't get the -(b)i and -ta on complements of verbs like "want" ... Not > terribly odd, since it might have survived only in fossilized corners of > the grammar, but still a tiny bit odd. We do get =bi in the context of reported complements and other clauses. Off the top of my head, it occurs with e=...dh=e=gaN 'to think' and in egaN and kki clauses. And under quotative ama. Also under the the and khe evidentials, when followed by ama. These are admittedly all cases in which same-subject is generally not even a possibility, and the =bi acts more like a marker of indirect speech combined with - I think - proximateness. It did occur with 'want' in the Assiniboine data, but that seemed a bit of an outlier in the glosses, I think. In OP I'm not sure I've noticed much in the way of complementizers. Are there any? Usually both main verb and subordinate are both inflected and come in sequence. You might be able to argue that the first co-verb, gaN in OP ...gaN=...dha, was a complementizer, perhaps based on the gaN in things like e=gaN 'like that', though we know that this is actually a contraction of gi dative (?) and aN 'do'. > If I remember correctly the pi vs. kta split in Linda's Assiniboine data > was positive/negative (or realized/unrealized or some such), not > present/past. I'll have to check that. JEK From rankin at ku.edu Wed Jun 5 18:31:28 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 13:31:28 -0500 Subject: Romance philology. Message-ID: It would probably be best for us to take our Romanistics off the Siouan list, I guess. The bottom line is, however, that there is no way one can take Latin 'ambulare' and make all the vowels, n's and l's and clusters come out regularly to derive andare, andar, amnar, anar, aner, aller, umbla and so forth. The result should be rather similar to 'fabulare' (Sp. hablar, Pt. falar), but with the added m. Doesn't happen. Like Blair, I'd want to confirm that Rm. umbla was actually inherited and not a product of Latinizing trends in recent times. The form cited by Corominas, imnare, actually looks to me to be a more likely popular development. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the dialect term despite 2 yrs there doing dialect phonology. I'm not doubting its existence though. BTW, I was an RA for Joan Corominas back in 1961-2 at Chicago, but I couldn't take the drudgery and dropped it. 8-) Bob -----Original Message----- From: BARudes at aol.com [mailto:BARudes at aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 12:06 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Oooops! Alan, Most of my reference works on Romanian and Rheto-Romance are at my university office, whereas I am at home until Friday. I will give you a more detailed response then. Meanwhile, here is what the Dictionarul Explicativ al Limbii Roma^ne (Bucharest: Editura Academiei Republicii Socialiste Roma^nia, 1975) has to say on the subject of the Romanian forms: Page 993: Umbla, umblu, v. I. Intranz. I.1. A se deplasa dintr-un loc in altui (to move from one place to another); a merge (to go); ... [Var. : (inv. si pop. (learned and local) i^mbla vb. 1] - Lat. ambulare]. If I remember correctly, the dialectal form i^mnare (which by the way is a noun, not an infinitive since Latin infinitives became Romanian nouns (compare Romanian avere 'possessions' and French avoir 'have'); infinitives in Romanian are rare (normally found only after forms of the verb a putea 'be able' in the standard dialect) and lack the infinitive suffix of Latin (Proto-Romance)) is a regular, dialect internal development (assimilation), of umbla/i^mbla 'go, move' . Thus, the Romanian forms can be derived directly from ambulare without any intermediate Proto-Romance form *amDlare. I also believe (but will have to check) that there is some question about whether this verb was inherited directly from Proto-Romance or is a later (learned) addition to the language. I will get back to you on the Rheto-Romance forms. Blair From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Jun 5 20:35:28 2002 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 13:35:28 -0700 Subject: History of SACC/SCALC Message-ID: Might not some old 1994 back issues of the SSILA bulletin clear this up? Dave ---------- >From: "Rankin, Robert L" >To: "'siouan at lists.colorado.edu'" >Subject: RE: History of SACC/SCALC >Date: Wed, Jun 5, 2002, 10:32 am > > > I stand corrected. I checked my vita and find that I had no SCALC paper > listed for '94. I did, however, have a paper on "Quapaw Positionals" listed > for MALC here in Lawrence that year. If we met at all, it would have been > informally at the Oct. MALC that year. > > Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Jun 5 21:02:51 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 15:02:51 -0600 Subject: History of SACC/SCALC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, David Costa wrote: > Might not some old 1994 back issues of the SSILA bulletin clear this up? Or perhaps the 1994 MALC Proceedings. JEK From shanwest at uvic.ca Wed Jun 5 21:29:49 2002 From: shanwest at uvic.ca (Shannon West) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 14:29:49 -0700 Subject: History of SACC/SCALC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I vaguely recall this. There was a contigent of U of Regina students prepared to go to this conference, and it was cancelled for some reason I don't recall. I think it was supposed to be in North Dakota or Montana. Shannon > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L > Sent: June 5, 2002 10:32 AM > To: 'siouan at lists.colorado.edu' > Subject: RE: History of SACC/SCALC > > > > I stand corrected. I checked my vita and find that I had no SCALC paper > listed for '94. I did, however, have a paper on "Quapaw > Positionals" listed > for MALC here in Lawrence that year. If we met at all, it would have been > informally at the Oct. MALC that year. > > Bob > > From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Wed Jun 5 21:32:40 2002 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:32:40 -0500 Subject: =(b)(i) in Dhegiha Message-ID: Yes, I just pulled out my copy of the handout too, and it's got a marginal scribble (note made while Linda was talking) "kta = irrealis". The kta examples are all negative except with matrix verbs "try" and "promise", but not all of the negative examples have kta, as John shows below. Tense/time appears to be irrelevant. So we were both wrong... ah, memory! Catherine Koontz John E cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: =(b)(i) in Dhegiha owner-siouan at lists.c olorado.edu 06/04/02 08:14 PM Please respond to siouan On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > If I remember correctly the pi vs. kta split in Linda's Assiniboine data > was positive/negative (or realized/unrealized or some such), not > present/past. My apologies in advance to Linda in case I misrepresent anything. I now have the handout before me, though not the paper. The examples were: che'yaka 'should, must do' pi should be respected [Linda thought this example should be rejected.] c?iN'ka 'to want' pi want to go/know kta [didn't want to go (? written in by me and may be misconstrued)] don't want to take snokya 'to know' pi don't know how to do s^kaN' 'try to do' kta tried to fight even tried to sit beside thawuN'khas^iN 'hate to do' pi hates to move around pi hate to die was^te'naz 'like to do' pi like to eat waho'ya 'promise' kta promised to do wayu'phi 'be skilled at' pi don't know how to drive I've forgotten how Linda characterized this, but I think it must be something like pi for intention, and kta for completed/avoided JEK From lcumberl at indiana.edu Wed Jun 5 23:27:19 2002 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (Linda A Cumberland) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 18:27:19 -0500 Subject: =(b)(i) in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just got back into town and checked e-mail. One quick correction to the following summary: -kta is "irrealis/hypothetical", not "past". More later. Conference was great! Linda > > At the meeting Linda Cumberland described a class of Assiniboine verbs > which are characterized by embedding same subject complements that require > =pi on the embedded clause verb in the present and =ktA in the past. From rankin at ku.edu Thu Jun 6 04:27:26 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 23:27:26 -0500 Subject: Siouan pluralizer. Message-ID: I'm home, have checked the references on the pluralizer and have some details and corrections to my note of this afternoon. Plural is noted in Dorsey's Quapaw notes as /-awe/, e.g., iNte 'ache' vs. /wa-Nte=awe/ 'we.pl ache' (stative pronominal). Carolyn's Osage data that I used in my Ablaut paper includes Osage /s^te/ 'you go' vs. /s^ta-ape/ 'you.pl go'. Dakota /apa/ 'some', see Riggs, Dakota Grammar, p. 87, line 2 for two different examples in the story "The Fallen Star". Grammaticalized /-Api/ 'plural' is presumably a doublet form of the independent word. The final vowel is difficult to determine, but it is probably /-i/ or /-e/. The problem is that it combines with the enclitics that follow it, including the feminine declarative /-e/ in Osage and Quapaw. Probable related forms include Hidatsa /a:pi/ 'with (a unity)', from Wes Jones and Crow /a':ppa:/ 'with', prob. from Randy. The proto-Mississippi Valley form is /*ape/ and proto-Siouan most likely the same. Sorry for the confusion this afternoon -- I was flying by the seat of my pants with no references. Irrealis */kte/ has the Biloxi cognate /te/ 'wish, want, sign of desire' in Dorsey and Swanton (1912), BAE-B-47. I suspect that's close to it's original meaning. I think there is a similar meaning in one of the northern languages. Great meeting!! Kudos to Dick for a great job! Bob From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Jun 6 12:06:55 2002 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 07:06:55 -0500 Subject: wakhan in nominal position In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If I'm not mistaken, there's has also been discussion in Algonquian realms as to whether "Kitchimanito" ('big spirit') was a precontact idea or came with the black robes. Michael McCafferty On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, Koontz John E wrote: > On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, Jan F. Ullrich wrote: > > In the term WakhaN' ThaN'ka the adjectival stative verb wakhan (to be > > sacred/mysterious/supernatural/incomprehensible) stands in the nominal > > position and is followed by another adjectival stative verb (thaN'ka ? to be > > big/large/great). > > This is very interesting detective work - a case of Siouan philology, in > fact. > > > Any hints from Dorsey's materials? He was a missionary as well, right? > > Any comparative possibilities? I know some of the other Siouan tribes use > > Wak(h?)aNda. > > Omaha-Ponca has wakkaN'da, Osage wahkaN'ta, etc. The kk/hk set would > correspond to Dakotan kh. A Dakota equivalent would be something like > *wakhaNl- ~ wakhaN'ta. > > Dhegiha also has forms like OP wakkaN'dagi 'water monster' (or 'doctor' in > some Dhegiha languages), which looks strangely like it has the Dakotan > article added. I think that the Omaha Shell Society (and the Mide complex > generally) may moderate some of this terminology, since it involves both a > water monster and doctoring in its basis story. > > Both these terms are nominal in OP, and there are various other nouns with > wa-prefixes, some from stative sources, like wasa'be 'black bear'. There > is also a class of stative verbs in wa-, e.g., wa..khe'ga 'be sick' and > wa..s^u's^e 'be brave, generous': aNwa(N)'s^us^e 'I am generous' (bad > form to say), wadhi's^us^e 'you are generous', etc. > > Finally, there are at least some other anomalous compounds in OP, e.g., > the name iNs^ta' maN'ze 'iron eye' (or 'glinting eye'?). The pattern here > of modified noun + modifying noun (treated as a stative?) is different, > but I've always thought that this, and maybe some other examples that slip > my mind, suggest that there are still some mysteries to the syntax of > (relatively) simple NPs in Siouan languages. > > JEK > > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu "Talking is often a torment for me, and I need many days of silence to recover from the futility of words. C.G. Jung "...as a dog howls at the moon, I talk." Rumi From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Jun 6 12:19:26 2002 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 13:19:26 +0100 Subject: wakhan in nominal position In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This must be the origin of Lakota was^os^e 'brave warrior' whci I think Buechel glosses as 'an old word'. Bruce On 5 Jun 2002, at 10:37, Koontz John E wrote: There > is also a class of stative verbs in wa-, e.g., wa..khe'ga 'be sick' and > wa..s^u's^e 'be brave, generous': aNwa(N)'s^us^e 'I am generous' (bad > form to say), wadhi's^us^e 'you are generous', etc. > > > JEK > From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Jun 6 12:38:31 2002 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 13:38:31 +0100 Subject: wakhan in nominal position In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Although I'm not up on the theology of all this, an alternative word smetimes said to be an alternative of WakhaN ThaNka is Taku s^kaNs^kaN 'thing which moves' as in moves upon the water' perhaps. Another example of wakhaN as head of a clause is the Lakota word for 'electricity' or 'lightning' which is WakhaN gli mysterious thing which comes'. > If I'm not mistaken, there's has also been discussion in Algonquian realms > as to whether "Kitchimanito" ('big spirit') was a precontact idea or came > with the black robes. > > Michael McCafferty > On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, Koontz John E wrote: > > > On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, Jan F. Ullrich wrote: > > > In the term WakhaN' ThaN'ka the adjectival stative verb wakhan (to be > > > sacred/mysterious/supernatural/incomprehensible) stands in the nominal > > > position and is followed by another adjectival stative verb (thaN'ka ? to be > > > big/large/great). > > > > This is very interesting detective work - a case of Siouan philology, in > > fact. > > > > > Any hints from Dorsey's materials? He was a missionary as well, right? > > > Any comparative possibilities? I know some of the other Siouan tribes use > > > Wak(h?)aNda. > > > > > > > > > JEK > > > > > > > > > Michael McCafferty > 307 Memorial Hall > Indiana University > Bloomington, Indiana > 47405 > mmccaffe at indiana.edu > > "Talking is often a torment for me, and I > need many days of silence to recover from the futility of words. > C.G. Jung > > "...as a dog howls at the moon, I talk." > Rumi > > > From ullrich.j at soupvm.cz Thu Jun 6 13:12:42 2002 From: ullrich.j at soupvm.cz (Jan F. Ullrich) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 15:12:42 +0200 Subject: wakhan in nominal position In-Reply-To: <3CFF65D7.2822.144D15B@localhost> Message-ID: Bruce Ingham wrote: > Although I'm not up on the theology of all this, an alternative word > smetimes said to be an alternative of WakhaN ThaNka is Taku > s^kaNs^kaN 'thing which moves' as in moves upon the water' > perhaps. Yes, Taku ShkaNShkan is relatively widely used in ceremonies today (especially in Yuwipi) and there are many records about its use in early 20th and the second half of 19th century. According to J.R.Walker's materials citing some of the 1900s elders Taku WakhaN was to designate all the visible/hearable natural phenomena, such as wind, Sun, lightning, thunder moon etc. Taku ShkaNshkaN is considered above these, because it is the ONE that makes everything move ? shkaN. The elders told Walker "all we can see from it is the sky". They also told him that WakhaN ThaNka embraces all of these, it is the ONE that includes MANY. Most of Walkers informants were Christian converts, and even if they weren't we still do not know whether WakhaN ThaNka was a pre-contact concept/term or not. Many elders told me (and Violet Catches e-mailed a similar notion) that WakhaN ThaNka was not for everyday use, only for prayers and songs. In everyday language Taku Wakhan is used. But you won't hear Taku Wakhan on the reservation very often today. Instead Thunkashila is heard far most often. Interestingly, while we can find only Taku WakhaN and not WakhaN ThaNka in early missionary reports, today there are hundreds of ceremonial songs with WakhaN ThaNka, while there are really few with Taku WakhaN. > Another example of wakhaN as head of a clause is the > Lakota word for 'electricity' or 'lightning' which is WakhaN gli > mysterious thing which comes'. This is a "good shot". Why haven't I thought of this one? I probably always perceived this wakhaN adverbially ("it comes mysteriously"), it could have even been contracted from WakhaNyaN gli, but that's a guess. Jan --- Odchoz? zpr?va neobsahuje viry. Zkontrolov?no antivirov?m syst?mem AVG (http://www.grisoft.cz). Verze: 6.0.368 / Virov? b?ze: 204 - datum vyd?n?: 29.5.2002 From napsha51 at aol.com Thu Jun 6 13:42:32 2002 From: napsha51 at aol.com (napsha51 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 09:42:32 -0400 Subject: wakhan in nominal position Message-ID: taku shkanshkan is never an alternative word for God, it means all those moving/living things that are a part of taku wakxan or wakxan txanka. the two words hold a huge power, whether you use, taku wakxan or wakxan txanka, it has a feeling connected to it, when I use the word, taku shkanshkan with it, so I give tobacco for it From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Jun 6 14:51:31 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 08:51:31 -0600 Subject: wakhan in nominal position In-Reply-To: <3CFF615E.12511.1335975@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Jun 2002 bi1 at soas.ac.uk wrote: > This must be the origin of Lakota was^os^e 'brave warrior' whci I > think Buechel glosses as 'an old word'. Yes, this is at least a Mississippi Valley cognate set, and Dakota also has a descendent term, though I don't know, off hand, if it is inflected as a stative. The association with generosity is usually explained as lacking fear of poverty, which suggests that courage is the root concept, but there are various ways of conceptualizing associations of virtues like courage and generosity. From lcumberl at indiana.edu Thu Jun 6 16:09:24 2002 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (Linda A Cumberland) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 11:09:24 -0500 Subject: Reference: article on conjunction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's the reference I promised for the article on conjoining nominals: Linguistic Typology 4-1 (2000): Leon Stassen--AND-languages and WITH-languages Linda From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Thu Jun 6 17:54:46 2002 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 12:54:46 -0500 Subject: Reference: article on conjunction Message-ID: Thanks -- I'll look it up when we're in Illinois in a couple of weeks. Catherine Linda A Cumberland Sent by: cc: owner-siouan at lists.c Subject: Reference: article on conjunction olorado.edu 06/06/02 11:09 AM Please respond to siouan Here's the reference I promised for the article on conjoining nominals: Linguistic Typology 4-1 (2000): Leon Stassen--AND-languages and WITH-languages Linda From nancyh at linguist.umass.edu Fri Jun 7 16:47:56 2002 From: nancyh at linguist.umass.edu (Nancy E Hall) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 12:47:56 -0400 Subject: andative Message-ID: After reading the discussion on the word 'andative', I can't resist adding my two cents. As a phonologist who's not a specialist in a language family but does typological work that requires consulting literature on many families, it drives me nuts to open a grammar and immediately be buried in terms like 'andative'. Subfield-specific traditions of terminology become so detailed and obscure that they're a real barrier to comprehension by outsiders, and then so ingrained that no one bothers to explain them. And when they're based on classical languages, it becomes hard to even guess what some of the words mean. I appreciate it when authors coin an apt Anglo-Saxon term- something self-explanatory and easy to remember- instead of a new Latinate one. I suggest a filter on new technical terms: take a poll of 10 non-Siouanist linguist friends and if most can't guess a definition that's somewhere in the ballpark of what the word means, throw it out. The only thing to be said for classically-derived terminology is that it does tend to be uniform across languages. When I have to read an article in Russian I'm grateful they don't have their own word for 'svarabhakti'... Nancy From boris at terracom.net Fri Jun 7 16:59:13 2002 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 11:59:13 -0500 Subject: andative Message-ID: Sorry, but what follows are the following questions.... are you assuming only Anglo-Saxons might be reading these descriptions or that these categories (which is our nature to title or name) should only be accessible to Anglo-Saxons. So what would be useable (ie coming/going-verbal-mode (CGVM) :) Respectfully Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nancy E Hall" To: Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 11:47 AM Subject: andative > > After reading the discussion on the word 'andative', I can't > resist adding my two cents. As a phonologist who's not a specialist in a > language family but does typological work that requires consulting > literature on many families, it drives me nuts to open a grammar and > immediately be buried in terms like 'andative'. Subfield-specific > traditions of terminology become so detailed and obscure that they're a > real barrier to comprehension by outsiders, and then so ingrained that no > one bothers to explain them. And when they're based on classical > languages, it becomes hard to even guess what some of the words mean. > I appreciate it when authors coin an apt Anglo-Saxon term- > something self-explanatory and easy to remember- instead of a new Latinate > one. I suggest a filter on new technical terms: take a poll of 10 > non-Siouanist linguist friends and if most can't guess a definition that's > somewhere in the ballpark of what the word means, throw it out. > The only thing to be said for classically-derived terminology is > that it does tend to be uniform across languages. When I have to read an > article in Russian I'm grateful they don't have their own word for > 'svarabhakti'... > > Nancy > > From rankin at ku.edu Fri Jun 7 21:33:31 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 16:33:31 -0500 Subject: andative Message-ID: Personally, I'm particularly fond of "go-ative" and "come-ative", but I'm still searching desperately for a good translation of 'taco' and 'burrito'. For 'quesadilla' I've come up with "Mexican grilled cheese sandwich with stuff inside" but it seems a little klunky, don't you think? Bob From boris at terracom.net Fri Jun 7 22:16:31 2002 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 17:16:31 -0500 Subject: andative Message-ID: 'burrito' very small equine that honks but does not whinny. ;0 Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 4:33 PM Subject: RE: andative > > Personally, I'm particularly fond of "go-ative" and "come-ative", but I'm > still searching desperately for a good translation of 'taco' and 'burrito'. > For 'quesadilla' I've come up with "Mexican grilled cheese sandwich with > stuff inside" but it seems a little klunky, don't you think? > > Bob > From Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com Sat Jun 8 10:52:47 2002 From: Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com (Anthony Grant) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 11:52:47 +0100 Subject: andative Message-ID: Or: a small entity that, if constiotuted from subadequate ingredients, can make its consumer whinny before honking. ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Knutson To: Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 11:16 PM Subject: Re: andative > 'burrito' very small equine that honks but does not whinny. > > ;0 > > Alan > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rankin, Robert L" > To: > Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 4:33 PM > Subject: RE: andative > > > > > > Personally, I'm particularly fond of "go-ative" and "come-ative", but I'm > > still searching desperately for a good translation of 'taco' and > 'burrito'. > > For 'quesadilla' I've come up with "Mexican grilled cheese sandwich with > > stuff inside" but it seems a little klunky, don't you think? > > > > Bob > > > > From Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com Sat Jun 8 10:56:02 2002 From: Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com (Anthony Grant) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 11:56:02 +0100 Subject: Stoney Message-ID: Colleagues: can anyone point me to recent work on Stoney? I know the Parks and Demallie article, which is what sparked my curiosity. I'm especially interested in the effects of Cree on the language, and on the processes which have made Stoney progressively more distinct from Assiniboin(e). Cordially Anthony Grant -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sat Jun 8 15:04:49 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 10:04:49 -0500 Subject: andative Message-ID: I can't top that on a Saturday morning. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Anthony Grant To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: 6/8/02 5:52 AM Subject: Re: andative Or: a small entity that, if constituted from subadequate ingredients, can make its consumer whinny before honking. ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Knutson To: Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 11:16 PM Subject: Re: andative > 'burrito' very small equine that honks but does not whinny. > > ;0 > > Alan > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rankin, Robert L" > To: > Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 4:33 PM > Subject: RE: andative > > > > > > Personally, I'm particularly fond of "go-ative" and "come-ative", but I'm > > still searching desperately for a good translation of 'taco' and > 'burrito'. > > For 'quesadilla' I've come up with "Mexican grilled cheese sandwich with > > stuff inside" but it seems a little klunky, don't you think? > > > > Bob > > > > From voorhis at westman.wave.ca Sat Jun 8 15:27:48 2002 From: voorhis at westman.wave.ca (voorhis at westman.wave.ca) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 10:27:48 -0500 Subject: andative Message-ID: There is another tradition for the creation of grammatical terminology, the Semitic one. You take a sample root and run it through the complete paradigm (even if some of the forms never occur in the normal, spoken language), and each item in the paradigm of that root becomes the technical term for the corresponding item with any root. For verbs, it's usually a root meaning 'do' that is chosen. With such a system, the andative in Dakota, for example, could be called the "echuN ye", and a form like xtani bde 'I'm going to work' presents the echuN ye form of the verb xtani (and is also third person, incidentally, from the Semitic point of view). With this system, the terminology changes for each language, of course, though the system for deriving that terminology is consistent, so the problem Nancy Hall describes is still there. If we could agree that the terminology would always be in one particular language, we'd just be where we are now, with a general concensus that grammatical terms are Latin, though they are descriptive rather than examples from paradigms. Floyd Lounsbury once said to me, "Why do they call it the obviative? There's nothing obvious about it." Paul Nancy E Hall wrote: > ... it drives me nuts to open a grammar and > immediately be buried in terms like 'andative'. Subfield-specific > traditions of terminology become so detailed and obscure that they're a > real barrier to comprehension by outsiders ... And when they're based on classical > languages, it becomes hard to even guess what some of the words mean. > I appreciate it when authors coin an apt Anglo-Saxon term- > something self-explanatory and easy to remember- instead of a new Latinate one. > ... The only thing to be said for classically-derived terminology is > that it does tend to be uniform across languages. When I have to read an > article in Russian I'm grateful they don't have their own word for > 'svarabhakti'... Alan Knutson wrote: > ... So what would be useable (ie coming/going-verbal-mode ... "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: > Personally, I'm particularly fond of "go-ative" and "come-ative" ... From rankin at ku.edu Sat Jun 8 22:53:14 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 17:53:14 -0500 Subject: Dakotan 'wakhaN' Message-ID: The recent discussion of the lexical class of Dakota 'wakhaN' brought to mind a historical comment I recently made in a paper that Giulia Oliverio and I are publishing. It is possible that the nominal status of 'medicine' has affected the status of 'sacred, mysterious', ordinarily a stative verb. Is it also possible that the root of 'sacred' was just -hkaN and that the wa- nominalized it? Here, in any event are the two cognate sets. 'medicine' 'sacred' *PSI: *w?N:hka *wahk?N Dakotan: wakh?N 'spirit, sacred' Chiwere: m?NkhaN wakh?N 'snake' Winneb: maN:k?N wak?N 'snake' Omaha: maNkk?N wakk?Nda 'sacred, god' Omaha: maNkk?N wakk?Ndagi'water monster' Kansa: mokk?N wakk?Nda 'holy, god' Osage: maNhk?N wahk?Nta 'holy, god' Quapaw: makk?N wakk?Ntta 'spirit, god' *OVS: *muNka 'snake' Biloxi: n-d?:si 'snake' Ofo: oNkt?fi 'snake' Saponi "moka" 'snake' In 'medicine' and 'sacred' we have two semantically similar, but derivationally unrelated, roots which, quite by chance, differ only in nasalization and accent placement. Their superficial similarities appear to have led to a certain amount of mixing. The 'medicine' column is where this Ohio Valley Siouan set properly belongs phonologically, but it has undergone the semantic specialization, acquiring the meaning 'snake', that is typical of the 'sacred' set in particular geographical areas. 'Sacred' underwent an exactly parallel change in Winnebago, Chiwere and Omaha. Here it should be noted that the concepts 'God, sacred' and 'snake' were related in much of the prehistoric eastern and central U.S. Nevertheless, there is identical semantic specialization in all three OVS languages. Paul Voorhis provided comments on the areal nature of this phenomenon. Voorhis points to similar parallel conflation of 'snake' and 'deity' in Kickapoo. Shawnee maneto is similarly 'snake' (David Costa, personal communication). Here, as usual, Biloxi and Ofo lose initial labial resonants, while Virginia Siouan keeps them. The -(k)desi portion of the Biloxi and Ofo cognates means 'striped' or 'spotted' and has good cognates throughout Siouan. Bob From enichol4 at attbi.com Sun Jun 9 06:32:02 2002 From: enichol4 at attbi.com (Eric) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 01:32:02 -0500 Subject: andative Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 10:27 AM Subject: Re: andative > > Floyd Lounsbury once said to me, "Why do they call it the obviative? > There's nothing obvious about it." > > Paul > The Oxford English Dictionary points to Cuoq as the source of the term "obviative" as used in Algonquian linguistics, though in French it appeared as "obviatif". Cuoq seems to think of the phenomenon as a kind of "objective" case, but somehow not quite. The closest thing to a reason for the usage I've ever seen is in one of the documents Early Canadiana Online has posted. It's an 1875 publication of a lecture given by Archdeacon Hunter for the Institute of Rupert's Land in 1862, so it predates the earliest Cuoq reference cited in the OED. Hunter uses the term "Accessory, Relative or Possesive Case" for what has become known as the "Obviative". On page 10 he says 'In Cree there is no occasion for this repetition and all ambiguity is removed as to which third person is meant by the use of this Accessory Case. "And John looking upon Jesus as he walked" (John i. 36), is an ambiguous sentence in English, for it may mean either John walking or Jesus walking. To make it quite clear of ambiguity, we should have to put it thus: "And John looking upon Jesus as he (Jesus) walked," repeating, you observe, the third person. In Cree this difficulty is OBVIATED by using the accessory case.' (Emphasis is mine.) Here is the URL to the page: From Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com Sun Jun 9 13:36:24 2002 From: Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com (Anthony Grant) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 14:36:24 +0100 Subject: andative Message-ID: Dear Bob: Glad you liked the joke! Regarding wakhaN etc - didn't the Chctaws used to have a special take on the spirituality of rattlesnakes? Or am I misremembering something that Swanton wrote about circa 1922? If I have remembered it correctly, then it's a crosslinguistic areal culture feature. Regrads Anthony ----- Original Message ----- From: Rankin, Robert L To: Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 4:04 PM Subject: RE: andative > I can't top that on a Saturday morning. Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anthony Grant > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Sent: 6/8/02 5:52 AM > Subject: Re: andative > > Or: a small entity that, if constituted from subadequate ingredients, > can make its consumer whinny before honking. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Alan Knutson > To: > Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 11:16 PM > Subject: Re: andative > > > > 'burrito' very small equine that honks but does not whinny. > > > > ;0 > > > > Alan > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Rankin, Robert L" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 4:33 PM > > Subject: RE: andative > > > > > > > > > > Personally, I'm particularly fond of "go-ative" and "come-ative", > but > I'm > > > still searching desperately for a good translation of 'taco' and > > 'burrito'. > > > For 'quesadilla' I've come up with "Mexican grilled cheese sandwich > with > > > stuff inside" but it seems a little klunky, don't you think? > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon Jun 10 00:26:05 2002 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 18:26:05 -0600 Subject: History of SACC/SCALC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I suspect there was no 1994 meeting. We met in the early summer for many years, until Bob decided to try to host the meeting at Kansas, but for internal university reasons there he had to attach it to the MidAmerica meetings, which were in the fall. So from 1990-1993 (4 meetings) we met in the fall with other Mid-America meetings, then decided to switch back to summer again. But Oct 93 to summer 94 was deemed too short an interval for a viable meeting, so we skipped 94 and went to the Institute in 95. It is odd, however, that we seem to have managed to keep the units digit of our conference number (xth annual conference) the same as the units digit of the meeting year. Must be those of us who organized the Albuquerque meeting assigned a wrong number somehow. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From mary.marino at usask.ca Mon Jun 10 04:59:59 2002 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Mary Marino) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 23:59:59 -0500 Subject: SCALC 2002 Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I got back to Saskatoon on Friday, after a most enjoyable trip. Thanks to everyone who made the conference a success, especially Dick Carter. A great harvest of handouts; I am really looking forward to next year's meeting. Best regards, Mary From are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu Mon Jun 10 11:04:52 2002 From: are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu (Ardis R Eschenberg) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 07:04:52 -0400 Subject: Dakota wakhan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A little note on Omaha concerning this is that wakaNda is used for 'God' whereas xube is used for 'sacred' currently. I thought the wa- was a nominalizer in the above just as 'waxube' is used for holy things. BTW Really disappointed to have missed the conference. Sounds like it was wonderful. France wasn't too bad either. On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > The recent discussion of the lexical class of Dakota 'wakhaN' brought to > mind a historical comment I recently made in a paper that Giulia Oliverio > and I are publishing. It is possible that the nominal status of 'medicine' > has affected the status of 'sacred, mysterious', ordinarily a stative verb. > > > Is it also possible that the root of 'sacred' was just -hkaN and that the > wa- nominalized it? Here, in any event are the two cognate sets. > > 'medicine' 'sacred' > *PSI: *w?N:hka *wahk?N > Dakotan: wakh?N 'spirit, sacred' > Chiwere: m?NkhaN wakh?N 'snake' > Winneb: maN:k?N wak?N 'snake' > Omaha: maNkk?N wakk?Nda 'sacred, god' > Omaha: maNkk?N wakk?Ndagi'water monster' > Kansa: mokk?N wakk?Nda 'holy, god' > Osage: maNhk?N wahk?Nta 'holy, god' > Quapaw: makk?N wakk?Ntta 'spirit, god' > *OVS: *muNka 'snake' > Biloxi: n-d?:si 'snake' > Ofo: oNkt?fi 'snake' > Saponi "moka" 'snake' > > In 'medicine' and 'sacred' we have two semantically similar, but > derivationally unrelated, roots which, quite by chance, differ only in > nasalization and accent placement. Their superficial similarities appear to > have led to a certain amount of mixing. The 'medicine' column is where this > Ohio Valley Siouan set properly belongs phonologically, but it has undergone > the semantic specialization, acquiring the meaning 'snake', that is typical > of the 'sacred' set in particular geographical areas. > > 'Sacred' underwent an exactly parallel change in Winnebago, Chiwere and > Omaha. Here it should be noted that the concepts 'God, sacred' and 'snake' > were related in much of the prehistoric eastern and central U.S. > Nevertheless, there is identical semantic specialization in all three OVS > languages. > > Paul Voorhis provided comments on the areal nature of this phenomenon. > Voorhis points to similar parallel conflation of 'snake' and 'deity' in > Kickapoo. Shawnee maneto is similarly 'snake' (David Costa, personal > communication). > > Here, as usual, Biloxi and Ofo lose initial labial resonants, while Virginia > Siouan keeps them. The -(k)desi portion of the Biloxi and Ofo cognates > means 'striped' or 'spotted' and has good cognates throughout Siouan. > > Bob > > From rankin at ku.edu Mon Jun 10 14:31:02 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 09:31:02 -0500 Subject: Dakota wakhan Message-ID: I'm getting this "char. set" message again with some of John's and Ardis' postings. Bob -----Original Message----- This message uses a character set that is not supported by the Internet Service. To view the original message content, open the attached message. If the text doesn't display correctly, save the attachment to disk, and then open it using a viewer that can display the original character set. From jggoodtracks at juno.com Mon Jun 10 23:38:41 2002 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:38:41 -0500 Subject: Dakota wakhan Message-ID: It may be added to Bob's list below, that "WakaNda" (God) is also found in Ponca & Ioway/Otoe. In Winnebago (Hochank) it is rendered "WakaNja'" (Thunders/ Thunder Birds). The Winnebago retains an older meaning/ application of the word, which was apparent in IOM & Osage, et.al., as noted by LaFleshe, Osage Dictionary, pp.193-194. As such, when the term appears in an IOM Clan Name, it is best rendered as "thunder", e.g., WakandaKipa (Meets The Thunders). The WIN continue to use Ma^unna, (Earth Maker) for their original/ contemporary term for Diety. An 80+ Ioway elder, indicated without solicitation in 1980's that "Ma^un" (Creator/ Earth Maker) was ultilized along with "Wakanda", by the IOM, during his early years by elders. It is noted in M.Merril's IOM biblical texts of 1830's, he uses "Wakanda" exclusively. As noted below for Omaha, the IOM words for sacred/ mysterious is "xo?ita" or "xobrin". Both may take the "wa-" nominalizar when standing alone. jgt On Mon, 10 Jun 2002 07:04:52 -0400 (EDT) Ardis R Eschenberg writes: > A little note on Omaha concerning this is that wakaNda is used for > 'God' > whereas xube is used for 'sacred' currently. I thought the wa- was a > nominalizer in the above just as 'waxube' is used for holy things. > > BTW Really disappointed to have missed the conference. Sounds like > it was > wonderful. France wasn't too bad either. > > > > On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > > The recent discussion of the lexical class of Dakota 'wakhaN' > brought to > > mind a historical comment I recently made in a paper that Giulia > Oliverio > > and I are publishing. It is possible that the nominal status of > 'medicine' > > has affected the status of 'sacred, mysterious', ordinarily a > stative verb. > > > > > > Is it also possible that the root of 'sacred' was just -hkaN and > that the > > wa- nominalized it? Here, in any event are the two cognate sets. > > > > 'medicine' 'sacred' > > *PSI: *w?N:hka *wahk?N > > Dakotan: wakh?N 'spirit, > sacred' > > Chiwere: m?NkhaN wakh?N 'snake' > > > Winneb: maN:k?N wak?N 'snake' > > Omaha: maNkk?N wakk?Nda > 'sacred, god' > > Omaha: maNkk?N > wakk?Ndagi'water monster' > > Kansa: mokk?N wakk?Nda > 'holy, god' > > Osage: maNhk?N wahk?Nta > 'holy, god' > > Quapaw: makk?N wakk?Ntta > 'spirit, god' > > *OVS: *muNka 'snake' > > Biloxi: n-d?:si 'snake' > > Ofo: oNkt?fi 'snake' > > Saponi "moka" 'snake' > > > > In 'medicine' and 'sacred' we have two semantically similar, but > > derivationally unrelated, roots which, quite by chance, differ only in > > nasalization and accent placement. Their superficial similarities appear to > > have led to a certain amount of mixing. The 'medicine' column is where this > > Ohio Valley Siouan set properly belongs phonologically, but it has undergone > > the semantic specialization, acquiring the meaning 'snake', that is typical > > of the 'sacred' set in particular geographical areas. > > > > 'Sacred' underwent an exactly parallel change in Winnebago, Chiwere and > > Omaha. Here it should be noted that the concepts 'God, sacred' and 'snake' > > were related in much of the prehistoric eastern and central U.S. > > Nevertheless, there is identical semantic specialization in all three OVS > > languages. > > > > Paul Voorhis provided comments on the areal nature of this phenomenon. > > Voorhis points to similar parallel conflation of 'snake' and 'deity' in > > Kickapoo. Shawnee maneto is similarly 'snake' (David Costa, personal > > communication). > > > > Here, as usual, Biloxi and Ofo lose initial labial resonants, while Virginia > > Siouan keeps them. The -(k)desi portion of the Biloxi and Ofo cognates > > means 'striped' or 'spotted' and has good cognates throughout Siouan. > > > > Bob > > > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Jun 11 01:39:33 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 19:39:33 -0600 Subject: Dakota wakhan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I'm getting this "char. set" message again with some of John's and Ardis' > postings. > -----Original Message----- > > This message uses a character set that is not supported by the Internet > Service. To view the original message content, open the attached message. > If the text doesn't display correctly, save the attachment to disk, and then > open it using a viewer that can display the original character set. I've tried modifying my settings, but I think this message may be more or less unavoidable (at the sender's end). It basically says, on behalf of your mail program, "The sender was on a Unix system, and you are on a Windows system." I am using a Unix system, and I'll gues that Ardis is, or has set something in her mailer to select the default Unix character set. I am truly sorry if my being on a Unix system causes my letters to be handled as attachments by your mailer, as I know this is fairly awkward. You may be able to configure your mailer so this doesn't happen. There's not much I can do other than trying to figure out how to use Outlook Express from an off campus location. (I think that's actually possible.) JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Jun 11 02:06:28 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:06:28 -0600 Subject: Dakotan 'wakhaN' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote: Based on Jimm's observations, I wonder if it wouldn't be better to distinguish *wakhaN and *wakhaNta(ki). Maybe it would be worth considering *xop- forms, too, on the idea that this term is more used where *wa-hkaN has some sort of special status? Also, for some reason, Omaha-Ponca seems to have borrowed its term for 'rattlesnake' - s^(e)e'kki - from Miami-Illinois or something very similar. Unfortunately, I seem to have left David Costa's MI Dictionary in my other bookshelf, but I know the first two syllables were quite similar. I wonder if this might not be a form of name avoidance, or perhaps I should say antinominalism or something like that? The standard Siouan term for snake, OP w(e)e's?aN, is intact. I do tend to think that the root of *wahkaN is -hkaN, but if 'medicine' is *waNaN'hka, not *waNaN'hkaN, it could be from *waNaN'h-ka, with contamination from *wa-hkaN in Mississippi Valley. > Is it also possible that the root of 'sacred' was just -hkaN and that the > wa- nominalized it? Here, in any event are the two cognate sets. > > 'medicine' 'sacred' > *PSI: *w?N:hka *wahk?N > Dakotan: wakh?N 'spirit, sacred' > Chiwere: m?NkhaN wakh?N 'snake' > Winneb: maN:k?N wak?N 'snake' > Omaha: maNkk?N wakk?Nda 'sacred, god' > Omaha: maNkk?N wakk?Ndagi'water monster' > Kansa: mokk?N wakk?Nda 'holy, god' > Osage: maNhk?N wahk?Nta 'holy, god' > Quapaw: makk?N wakk?Ntta 'spirit, god' > *OVS: *muNka 'snake' > Biloxi: n-d?:si 'snake' > Ofo: oNkt?fi 'snake' > Saponi "moka" 'snake' Although my mailer doesn't cast any aspersions on Bob's mailer's choice of character set, I do see beta for a' and theta for e'. Actually the theta looks a lot like the Linear B character that I used to think of as the chocolate chip cookie. Of course, that's the fault of HyperTerminal and Windows, not Bob. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Jun 11 02:37:29 2002 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 19:37:29 -0700 Subject: rattlesnakes Message-ID: The Miami-Illinois name for the Massasauga (the smaller of the two species of rattlesnakes in that area) is /$iih$iikwia/ ($ = s-hacek). All the sister languages have cognates, like Ojibwe /zhiishiigwe/ & Shawnee /sihsiikwe/. But I don't think it's necessary to posit an Algonquian -> Omaha-Ponca loan here. /s^(e)e'kki/ and the Algonquian etymon are clearly onomatopoeic, and I wouldn't be at all surprised for the different languages to independently create names like that. Dave Costa > Also, for some reason, Omaha-Ponca seems to have borrowed its term for > 'rattlesnake' - s^(e)e'kki - from Miami-Illinois or something very > similar. Unfortunately, I seem to have left David Costa's MI Dictionary > in my other bookshelf, but I know the first two syllables were quite > similar. I wonder if this might not be a form of name avoidance, or > perhaps I should say antinominalism or something like that? The standard > Siouan term for snake, OP w(e)e's?aN, is intact. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Jun 11 05:54:34 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 23:54:34 -0600 Subject: andative (fwd) Message-ID: Looks like I misrouted this! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 18:31:53 -0600 (MDT) From: Koontz John E To: Nancy E Hall Subject: Re: andative On Fri, 7 Jun 2002, Nancy E Hall wrote: > After reading the discussion on the word 'andative', I can't > resist adding my two cents. As a phonologist who's not a specialist in a > language family but does typological work that requires consulting > literature on many families, it drives me nuts to open a grammar and > immediately be buried in terms like 'andative'. Subfield-specific > traditions of terminology become so detailed and obscure that they're a > real barrier to comprehension by outsiders, .. We could probably all do with a bit less terminology. It seems to me that the most obscure terms, however, arise not from any obscurantist tendency, but from attempts to devise a convenient terminology for dealing with an unfamiliar new structure, incommensurate with the details of other structures elsewhere. It can be fairly awkward trying to describe Siouan languages without the somewhat specialized terms we use - agent, patient, active, stative, vertitive, ablaut, instrumental (inner and outer), locative, dative, syncopating, etc. I've tried. All of these things are more or less unique bundles of behavior in Siouan languages, though some of them correspond roughly in functional terms to things elsewhere, and so, somewhat misleadingly, share their names. If these local usages are somewhat misleading or, in cases like Algonquian, downright overwhelming, there's still very little that can be done about it. A succinct, locally applicable terminology is essential to specialist discourse. Siouan instrumentals and locatives just happen to work a bit differently from similar things in other languages, and Algonquianists wouldn't get far without being able to refer to the elements of Algonquian morphosyntax as initials, medials, and finals. If none of these terms have any Anglo-Saxon equivalents, it's mainly because English follows the lead of the Romance languages in using classicizing compounds instead of contemporary native ones modelled on them. It's not uncommon for learned disciplines to use terminologies based on classical languages, and as a linguist I'm more or less willing to deal with it. I'm not even sure how to go about saying instrumental, for example, in Anglo-Saxon. A toolform? Of course, I suspect that Nancy really isn't bother by Latinity, but only by obscurity, and I apologize now for teasing her on this score. In a more serious vein, it strikes me as an advantage that the classical terminology in use is more or less constant across languages sharing the tradition. In a very real way it's this that saves us from Russian (or Anglo-Saxon) words for swarabhakti. On the other hand, we do definitely owe it to the non-Siouanists and future Siouanists, not to mention laymen speakers, to use standard terms wherever we can, and not promote arbitrary family-specific terms where they are not needed. I actually thought that this was David's point, and if I run into an andative now, I'll know what to call it. In addition, I think we can safely avoid specialized terms for infrequent and non-morphological patterns. So, if it's a fairly infrequent compound of 'go' and 'stand', even though it may be andative in some sense, I'm inclined just to call it a compound of 'go' and 'stand', reserving andative for productive morphological constructs as in the Shawnee case in question. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Jun 11 05:56:50 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 23:56:50 -0600 Subject: wakhan in nominal position (fwd) Message-ID: Something else I misrouted. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 09:07:11 -0600 (MDT) From: Koontz John E To: Jan F. Ullrich Subject: RE: wakhan in nominal position On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, Jan F. Ullrich wrote: > What about the stem of the wakkaN'da ..., can it be use as a separate > word, e.g. for modifying nouns? Not to my knowledge. The only other word I've encoutnered with the root -kkaNda is wakkaN'dagi. The one other instance of -kkaN in this sense (as opposed to 'vein, sinew, cord') is maNkkaN' 'medicine', e.g., x'ade maNkkaN' 'tea, lit. grass (or herb) medicine' or maNkkaN' sa'be 'coffee, lit. black medicine'. The usual stative verb for 'holy, sacred, mysterious' is xube. This has an awkward near homophone with 'inebriated'. I think there is an accent difference, but, to my chagrin, I forget which is which, and I avoid guessing in this case. I do recall that both forms have distinct cognate sets, so that they are actually only coincidentally similar. Xube is used in various other forms like waxu'be 'a sacred thing', or dhaxu'be 'to speak of as sacred', and so on. The root s^kaN is 'to move, to make an effort, to try'. I'm not aware of any sacred connections in Omaha-Ponca for that verb, though it does refer to a virtue, or pattern of good behavior, in Omaha and Pona culture. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Jun 11 06:50:42 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 00:50:42 -0600 Subject: rattlesnakes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, David Costa wrote: > The Miami-Illinois name for the Massasauga (the smaller of the two species > of rattlesnakes in that area) is /$iih$iikwia/ ($ = s-hacek). All the sister > languages have cognates, like Ojibwe /zhiishiigwe/ & Shawnee /sihsiikwe/. > But I don't think it's necessary to posit an Algonquian -> Omaha-Ponca loan > here. /s^(e)e'kki/ and the Algonquian etymon are clearly onomatopoeic, and I > wouldn't be at all surprised for the different languages to independently > create names like that. Is the Algonquian set essentially regular? I'd argue against onomatopoeia as the source of the Omaha-Ponca form. There are basically three reasons for this. First, C(V)V'CCV is a rather odd shape for a monomorphemic (root) stem in a MV Siouan language. (The (V)V' notation means I have my suspicions about vowel length in this case. I didn't use to think there was any, but it looks like there probably is and this a place where it's probably been missed, to wit, consider the accent.) Typical onomatopoeic verb roots and immitative words are monosyllables. There are exceptions, like maNgdhi'xta 'redwing' (from the male's territorial cry). Second, the sound of rattling in Siouan languages takes various forms, depending on the language, but this is not the form. I don't know the sounds attributed to rattlesnakes in most languages, but the usual Dakotan (Teton) root for 'rattle' is xla. In Omaha-Ponca the relevant root is sadhu. In effect, onomatopoeic forms can also show similarities among related languages, but differ between unrelated families, even when some degree of continuous reformation occurs. The Iroquoian terms for 'redwing' are all rather similar (not far from the okalee you find in Peterson's field guides), still bear a family resemblence that sets tem apart from the Omaha-Ponca form just cited. Similar patterns occur with other bird names of onomatopoeic origin. Third, onomatopoeic words get borrowed, too, and given the strong resemblenace among the Algonquian forms, and the more or less unique, oddball character of s^(e)e'kki in Omaha-Ponca, I think it likely this is a borrowing. However, it was the second and third syllables, not the first two, that got borrowed. Or, putting it another way, the reduplication and the animate suffix get removed. The animate suffix is also missing in 'bow' (in Winnebago and Ioway-Otoe). MI s^iihs^ii kwia PreOP *s^eekku OP s^eekki *u > i (via u") is regular in OP In the Dorsey texts s^(e)e'kki "Ce'ki" only appears as a personal name, glossed s^e'kki. The texts actually call rattlesnakes w(e)e's?aN. Swetland/Stabler give sadhu', no doubt following Fletcher & LaFlesche, who do, too. It appears that I got the gloss 'rattlesnake' from LaFlesche's Osage Dictionary. I'll have to assume that she'k.i there represents /s^e'kku"/. JEK From rankin at ku.edu Tue Jun 11 15:43:44 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:43:44 -0500 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Message-ID: I guess we'd best go back to the 26 letters of the English alphabet plus the usual diacritics like ~ (tilde) and ^ (circumflex) for our net Siouan. It occurs to me that our European readers may not display $ as a dollar sign but rather as a Euro sign, pound sign or some other currency. I guess I'll go back to using ' for accent also. > The Miami-Illinois name for the Massasauga (the smaller of the two species of rattlesnakes in that area) is /$iih$iikwia/ ($ = s-hacek). For what it's worth, s^ekki looks like a loan to me too. Kansa we'c?a s^ekku' (where u is u-umlaut). but Quapaw we's?a-xti 'snake+intensifier' "real snake". Bob From rankin at ku.edu Tue Jun 11 16:08:46 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:08:46 -0500 Subject: Dakota wakhan Message-ID: Jimm Good Tracks writes: >It may be added to Bob's list below, that "WakaNda" (God) is also found in Ponca & Ioway/Otoe. In Winnebago (Hochank) it is rendered "WakaNja'" (Thunders/ Thunder Birds). The Winnebago retains an older meaning/ application of the word, which was apparent in IOM & Osage, et.al., as noted by LaFleshe, Osage Dictionary, pp.193-194. As such, when the term appears in an IOM Clan Name, it is best rendered as "thunder", e.g., WakandaKipa (Meets The Thunders). All Dhegiha dialects have a version of *wahkaNta as a noun, but do any of these languages also have a reflex of *wahkaN, the verb? If not, it is quite possible that Dhegiha underwent the same change as OVS and Ioway-Otoe and that we's?a has replaced it. We see here the usual progression of derived replacement forms by which the older FORM takes on the newer MEANING and a newer, derived form takes the old meaning. 'Dog' and 'horse' are a good parallel. Bob From lcumberl at indiana.edu Tue Jun 11 16:37:13 2002 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (Linda A Cumberland) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:37:13 -0500 Subject: andative Message-ID: I forwarded one of the early messeges in this series to Bob Botne in the Linguistics dept. here at IU, who works extensively with "come" and "go" in African languages and got these responses (and permission to share them with you). He also gave me an excellent reference on the subject: Wilkins, David P. and Debora Hill. "When 'go' means 'come': Questioning the basicness of basic motion verbs" In Cognitive Linguistics 6-2/3(1995), 209-259. 1. "I can answer the question that was raised about the andative. It was coined by Bernd Heine and his group in Cologne in their work on grammaticalization and African languages. I've used it with the languages I work on as well. It comes from Italian andare 'walk, go'. Thilo Schadeberg, a Latinate Bantu scholar, despises the term since it's not based on Latin. He coined the term itive for the same thing, from the Latin verb for 'go'. Both of these are the counterpart of the ventive (or venitive for some people) 'come'. Bob" 2. "As for the origins of andative, I need to qualify what I said from home. The earliest attested source that I have at hand for "andative" is Lictenberk's 1991 article in Language 67, "Semantic change and heterosemy". Bernd Heine, I believe, coined the term, but I can't find a published use of it before 1993 in Conceptual Shift: A Lexicon of Grammaticalization Terms (Afrikanistische Arbeitspapiere 34/35). It has been used for quite awhile in African linguistics. I do have a reference to Mithun (1988) who may have used the term with respect to Iroquois: Mithun, Marianne. 1988. The Grammaticalization of Coordination. In: Haiman, John, and Sandra Thompson. (eds.) Clause Combining in Grammar and Discourse Bob" From boris at terracom.net Tue Jun 11 18:27:44 2002 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:27:44 -0500 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Message-ID: Available on any "Windows" machine are additional characters, these are typed by pressing the 'alt' key and a sequence of numbers: ie. alt0138 S alt0154 s alt0227 ? alt0240 ? alt0230 ? alt0241 ? many more are available, this is just a sample. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:43 AM Subject: RE: symbol sets and rattlesnake. > > I guess we'd best go back to the 26 letters of the English alphabet plus the > usual diacritics like ~ (tilde) and ^ (circumflex) for our net Siouan. It > occurs to me that our European readers may not display $ as a dollar sign > but rather as a Euro sign, pound sign or some other currency. I guess I'll > go back to using ' for accent also. > > > The Miami-Illinois name for the Massasauga (the smaller of the two > species of rattlesnakes in that area) is /$iih$iikwia/ ($ = s-hacek). > > For what it's worth, s^ekki looks like a loan to me too. > > Kansa we'c?a s^ekku' (where u is u-umlaut). > > but Quapaw we's?a-xti 'snake+intensifier' "real snake". > > Bob > From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Tue Jun 11 18:46:47 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:46:47 -0500 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Message-ID: Unfortunately, alt0138 gives nothing at all, nor do any of the other combinations, on my HP laptop. So these codes don't work on my Windows ME machine, either in Outlook Express or in Word. Carolyn Q. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Knutson" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:27 PM Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Available on any "Windows" machine are additional characters, these are typed by pressing the 'alt' key and a sequence of numbers: ie. alt0138 S alt0154 s alt0227 ? alt0240 ? alt0230 ? alt0241 ? many more are available, this is just a sample. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:43 AM Subject: RE: symbol sets and rattlesnake. > > I guess we'd best go back to the 26 letters of the English alphabet plus the > usual diacritics like ~ (tilde) and ^ (circumflex) for our net Siouan. It > occurs to me that our European readers may not display $ as a dollar sign > but rather as a Euro sign, pound sign or some other currency. I guess I'll > go back to using ' for accent also. > > > The Miami-Illinois name for the Massasauga (the smaller of the two > species of rattlesnakes in that area) is /$iih$iikwia/ ($ = s-hacek). > > For what it's worth, s^ekki looks like a loan to me too. > > Kansa we'c?a s^ekku' (where u is u-umlaut). > > but Quapaw we's?a-xti 'snake+intensifier' "real snake". > > Bob > From bcoon at montana.edu Tue Jun 11 18:58:17 2002 From: bcoon at montana.edu (Coon, Brad) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:58:17 -0600 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Message-ID: Make sure your Numlock is on. It does work on my Windows ME at home FWIW. Brad Coon -----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Quintero [mailto:cqcqcq at pgtv.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:47 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Unfortunately, alt0138 gives nothing at all, nor do any of the other combinations, on my HP laptop. So these codes don't work on my Windows ME machine, either in Outlook Express or in Word. Carolyn Q. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Knutson" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:27 PM Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Available on any "Windows" machine are additional characters, these are typed by pressing the 'alt' key and a sequence of numbers: ie. alt0138 S alt0154 s alt0227 ? alt0240 ? alt0230 ? alt0241 ? many more are available, this is just a sample. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:43 AM Subject: RE: symbol sets and rattlesnake. > > I guess we'd best go back to the 26 letters of the English alphabet plus the > usual diacritics like ~ (tilde) and ^ (circumflex) for our net Siouan. It > occurs to me that our European readers may not display $ as a dollar sign > but rather as a Euro sign, pound sign or some other currency. I guess I'll > go back to using ' for accent also. > > > The Miami-Illinois name for the Massasauga (the smaller of the two > species of rattlesnakes in that area) is /$iih$iikwia/ ($ = s-hacek). > > For what it's worth, s^ekki looks like a loan to me too. > > Kansa we'c?a s^ekku' (where u is u-umlaut). > > but Quapaw we's?a-xti 'snake+intensifier' "real snake". > > Bob > From Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com Tue Jun 11 19:23:53 2002 From: Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com (Anthony Grant) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:23:53 +0100 Subject: andative etc Message-ID: Colleagues: I must confess I'm with Thilo Schadeberg on 'andative' (he's not a man to cross), and would use 'itive' myself, though 'venitive' has enjoyed some use in Penutian studies. Howard Berman's paper on the place of Molala in Plateau Penutian (IJAL 1996, 1-30) uses 'venitive' (rather than 'ventive'). Anthony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Jun 11 19:25:09 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:25:09 -0600 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. In-Reply-To: <004301c21175$ae681de0$385faad0@machine> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Jun 2002, Alan Knutson wrote: > Available on any "Windows" machine are additional characters, these are > typed by pressing the 'alt' key > and a sequence of numbers: > > ie. > > alt0138 S Unfortunately, not everyone is using a Windows machine. JEK From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Tue Jun 11 19:26:51 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:26:51 -0500 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Message-ID: I'm trying, and this isn't the first time. Still gives nothing, and the num-lock is on. carolyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Coon, Brad" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:58 PM Subject: RE: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Make sure your Numlock is on. It does work on my Windows ME at home FWIW. Brad Coon -----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Quintero [mailto:cqcqcq at pgtv.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:47 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Unfortunately, alt0138 gives nothing at all, nor do any of the other combinations, on my HP laptop. So these codes don't work on my Windows ME machine, either in Outlook Express or in Word. Carolyn Q. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Knutson" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:27 PM Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Available on any "Windows" machine are additional characters, these are typed by pressing the 'alt' key and a sequence of numbers: ie. alt0138 S alt0154 s alt0227 ? alt0240 ? alt0230 ? alt0241 ? many more are available, this is just a sample. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:43 AM Subject: RE: symbol sets and rattlesnake. > > I guess we'd best go back to the 26 letters of the English alphabet plus the > usual diacritics like ~ (tilde) and ^ (circumflex) for our net Siouan. It > occurs to me that our European readers may not display $ as a dollar sign > but rather as a Euro sign, pound sign or some other currency. I guess I'll > go back to using ' for accent also. > > > The Miami-Illinois name for the Massasauga (the smaller of the two > species of rattlesnakes in that area) is /$iih$iikwia/ ($ = s-hacek). > > For what it's worth, s^ekki looks like a loan to me too. > > Kansa we'c?a s^ekku' (where u is u-umlaut). > > but Quapaw we's?a-xti 'snake+intensifier' "real snake". > > Bob > From bcoon at montana.edu Tue Jun 11 19:56:23 2002 From: bcoon at montana.edu (Coon, Brad) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:56:23 -0600 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Message-ID: I just did further experimenting. It does not work with the numbers above the letter keypad, only with the separate number pad. Perhaps this is the problem. Brad Coon -----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Quintero [mailto:cqcqcq at pgtv.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:27 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. I'm trying, and this isn't the first time. Still gives nothing, and the num-lock is on. carolyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Coon, Brad" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:58 PM Subject: RE: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Make sure your Numlock is on. It does work on my Windows ME at home FWIW. Brad Coon -----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Quintero [mailto:cqcqcq at pgtv.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:47 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Unfortunately, alt0138 gives nothing at all, nor do any of the other combinations, on my HP laptop. So these codes don't work on my Windows ME machine, either in Outlook Express or in Word. Carolyn Q. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Knutson" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:27 PM Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Available on any "Windows" machine are additional characters, these are typed by pressing the 'alt' key and a sequence of numbers: ie. alt0138 S alt0154 s alt0227 ? alt0240 ? alt0230 ? alt0241 ? many more are available, this is just a sample. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:43 AM Subject: RE: symbol sets and rattlesnake. > > I guess we'd best go back to the 26 letters of the English alphabet plus the > usual diacritics like ~ (tilde) and ^ (circumflex) for our net Siouan. It > occurs to me that our European readers may not display $ as a dollar sign > but rather as a Euro sign, pound sign or some other currency. I guess I'll > go back to using ' for accent also. > > > The Miami-Illinois name for the Massasauga (the smaller of the two > species of rattlesnakes in that area) is /$iih$iikwia/ ($ = s-hacek). > > For what it's worth, s^ekki looks like a loan to me too. > > Kansa we'c?a s^ekku' (where u is u-umlaut). > > but Quapaw we's?a-xti 'snake+intensifier' "real snake". > > Bob > From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Tue Jun 11 20:18:34 2002 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:18:34 -0700 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. In-Reply-To: <007b01c21178$61e8f540$0e15460a@direcpc.com> Message-ID: I wonder if this is because the Num Lock is off. I believe this has to be done on the numeric keypad, with Num Lock on. Wally --On Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:46 PM -0500 Carolyn Quintero wrote: > Unfortunately, alt0138 gives nothing at all, nor do any of the other > combinations, on my HP laptop. So these codes don't work on my Windows ME > machine, either in Outlook Express or in Word. > Carolyn Q. From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Tue Jun 11 20:15:56 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:15:56 -0500 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Message-ID: -? ??? ? ? ? ? ? I would like to thank Brad Coon, and say that I worked on this problem for a long time with several computer folks, and none were able to solve it for me. Thanks a million, Brad. Now, can I make macros to use these special characters in Outlook Express so I don't have to type in so many codes. I do quite a bit of correspondence in Spanish and need the Spanish characters..upside down question mark and exclamation mark, enye, accented vowels, umlaut. BTW, since I'm on a laptop, ofcourse the number pad is activated by the Fn key. Alt, Fn, +code gets the characters. Appreciatively, Carolyn Make sure your Numlock is on. It does work on my Windows ME at home FWIW. Brad Coon -----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Quintero [mailto:cqcqcq at pgtv.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:47 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Unfortunately, alt0138 gives nothing at all, nor do any of the other combinations, on my HP laptop. So these codes don't work on my Windows ME machine, either in Outlook Express or in Word. Carolyn Q. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Knutson" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:27 PM Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Available on any "Windows" machine are additional characters, these are typed by pressing the 'alt' key and a sequence of numbers: ie. alt0138 S alt0154 s alt0227 ? alt0240 ? alt0230 ? alt0241 ? many more are available, this is just a sample. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:43 AM Subject: RE: symbol sets and rattlesnake. > > I guess we'd best go back to the 26 letters of the English alphabet plus the > usual diacritics like ~ (tilde) and ^ (circumflex) for our net Siouan. It > occurs to me that our European readers may not display $ as a dollar sign > but rather as a Euro sign, pound sign or some other currency. I guess I'll > go back to using ' for accent also. > > > The Miami-Illinois name for the Massasauga (the smaller of the two > species of rattlesnakes in that area) is /$iih$iikwia/ ($ = s-hacek). > > For what it's worth, s^ekki looks like a loan to me too. > > Kansa we'c?a s^ekku' (where u is u-umlaut). > > but Quapaw we's?a-xti 'snake+intensifier' "real snake". > > Bob > From boris at terracom.net Tue Jun 11 21:01:56 2002 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:01:56 -0500 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Message-ID: Congratrulations Carolyn, My apologies, I was not familiar with the laptop situation, however I should say that these characters are also available with Mac's. I'm not familiar with Unix however. Alan ???????????????? etc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carolyn Quintero" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 3:15 PM Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. > > -? > ??? > ? > ? > ? > ? > ? > I would like to thank Brad Coon, and say that I worked on this problem for a > long time with several computer folks, and none were able to solve it for > me. Thanks a million, Brad. Now, can I make macros to use these special > characters in Outlook Express so I don't have to type in so many codes. I > do quite a bit of correspondence in Spanish and need the Spanish > characters..upside down question mark and exclamation mark, enye, accented > vowels, umlaut. > BTW, since I'm on a laptop, ofcourse the number pad is activated by the Fn > key. Alt, Fn, +code gets the characters. > Appreciatively, > Carolyn > > Make sure your Numlock is on. It does work on my Windows ME at home FWIW. > Brad Coon > > -----Original Message----- > From: Carolyn Quintero [mailto:cqcqcq at pgtv.net] > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:47 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. > > > Unfortunately, alt0138 gives nothing at all, nor do any of the other > combinations, on my HP laptop. So these codes don't work on my Windows ME > machine, either in Outlook Express or in Word. > Carolyn Q. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alan Knutson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:27 PM > Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. > > > Available on any "Windows" machine are additional characters, these are > typed by pressing the 'alt' key > and a sequence of numbers: > > ie. > > alt0138 S > alt0154 s > alt0227 ? > alt0240 ? > alt0230 ? > alt0241 ? > > many more are available, this is just a sample. > > Alan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rankin, Robert L" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:43 AM > Subject: RE: symbol sets and rattlesnake. > > > > > > I guess we'd best go back to the 26 letters of the English alphabet plus > the > > usual diacritics like ~ (tilde) and ^ (circumflex) for our net Siouan. It > > occurs to me that our European readers may not display $ as a dollar sign > > but rather as a Euro sign, pound sign or some other currency. I guess > I'll > > go back to using ' for accent also. > > > > > The Miami-Illinois name for the Massasauga (the smaller of the two > > species of rattlesnakes in that area) is /$iih$iikwia/ ($ = s-hacek). > > > > For what it's worth, s^ekki looks like a loan to me too. > > > > Kansa we'c?a s^ekku' (where u is u-umlaut). > > > > but Quapaw we's?a-xti 'snake+intensifier' "real snake". > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Jun 11 21:01:14 2002 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:01:14 -0700 Subject: symbol sets Message-ID: Did you try alt-138, rather than alt-0138? These are PC-ASCII codes; for those of us who use Macs, these won't work at all. In my experience, virtually ANY kind of special character -- even ordinary ones like 'a-acute accent' -- can and probably will get mangled by being passed through email, especially if it passes through some really different types of servers or if it crosses international boundaries. So really, it works best not to use any special characters in a venue like this and to limit ourselves to ugly-but-safe things like 's^', 'u"' and 'e`'. David ---------- >From: "Carolyn Quintero" >To: >Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. >Date: Tue, Jun 11, 2002, 11:46 am > > Unfortunately, alt0138 gives nothing at all, nor do any of the other > combinations, on my HP laptop. So these codes don't work on my Windows ME > machine, either in Outlook Express or in Word. > Carolyn Q. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alan Knutson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:27 PM > Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. > > > Available on any "Windows" machine are additional characters, these are > typed by pressing the 'alt' key > and a sequence of numbers: > > ie. > > alt0138 S > alt0154 s > alt0227 ? > alt0240 ? > alt0230 ? > alt0241 ? > > many more are available, this is just a sample. > > Alan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rankin, Robert L" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:43 AM > Subject: RE: symbol sets and rattlesnake. > > >> I guess we'd best go back to the 26 letters of the English alphabet plus the >> usual diacritics like ~ (tilde) and ^ (circumflex) for our net Siouan. It >> occurs to me that our European readers may not display $ as a dollar sign but >> rather as a Euro sign, pound sign or some other currency. I guess I'll go >> back to using ' for accent also. >>> The Miami-Illinois name for the Massasauga (the smaller of the two species >>> of rattlesnakes in that area) is /$iih$iikwia/ ($ = s-hacek). >> For what it's worth, s^ekki looks like a loan to me too. >> Kansa we'c?a s^ekku' (where u is u-umlaut). >> but Quapaw we's?a-xti 'snake+intensifier' "real snake". >> Bob > > > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Jun 11 21:44:43 2002 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:44:43 -0700 Subject: rattlesnakes Message-ID: Yes, the Algonquian set is regular. The old Illinois form was /$iih$iikweewa/. It's found all over the family, from Cheyenne and Arapaho through to Delaware and Penobscot. I'd treat you all to a huge cognate set but this *IS* supposed to be a Siouan list... :-) It goes back to Proto-Algonquian */$i:?$i:kwe:wa/ (again, '$' = s-hacek). It probably literally meant 'he who goes sheek sheek'. It specifically means the Massassauga in Miami-Illinois (not the Timber Rattlesnake), tho it's not clear whether that was the species it designated in Proto-Algonquian. It seems to be the generic rattlesnake word in some daughter languages. Perhaps this truly was loaned from Algonquian to Omaha, but I'm just always leery of drawing many conclusions about onomatopoeic words. We all know they're dangerous to use in proving the relatedness of distant languages, and they often violate normal sound changes. But if some Dheghiha-internal funny business is explained by assuming it's a loan, it could be. Dave ---------- >From: Koontz John E >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: rattlesnakes >Date: Mon, Jun 10, 2002, 11:50 pm > > On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, David Costa wrote: >> The Miami-Illinois name for the Massasauga (the smaller of the two species >> of rattlesnakes in that area) is /$iih$iikwia/ ($ = s-hacek). All the sister >> languages have cognates, like Ojibwe /zhiishiigwe/ & Shawnee /sihsiikwe/. >> But I don't think it's necessary to posit an Algonquian -> Omaha-Ponca loan >> here. /s^(e)e'kki/ and the Algonquian etymon are clearly onomatopoeic, and I >> wouldn't be at all surprised for the different languages to independently >> create names like that. > > Is the Algonquian set essentially regular? > > I'd argue against onomatopoeia as the source of the Omaha-Ponca form. > There are basically three reasons for this. From Rgraczyk at aol.com Tue Jun 11 21:48:46 2002 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Randolph Graczyk) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:48:46 EDT Subject: Dakotan 'wakhaN' Message-ID: In a message dated 06/08/2002 4:54:37 PM Mountain Daylight Time, rankin at ku.edu writes: > Is it also possible that the root of 'sacred' was just -hkaN and that the > wa- nominalized it? > > Something similar has happened in Crow, although the forms are not cognate. > Hidatsa has xupa'a 'holy, sacred', and Crow has baaxpa'a < baa-x(u)pa'a. > Although the Crow form has the baa- prefix, it is a stative verb and not a noun. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Jun 11 22:21:28 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:21:28 -0500 Subject: symbol sets Message-ID: >In my experience, virtually ANY kind of special character -- even ordinary ones like 'a-acute accent' -- can and probably will get mangled by being passed through email, especially if it passes through some really different types of servers or if it crosses international boundaries. So really,it works best not to use any special characters in a venue like this and to limit ourselves to ugly-but-safe things like 's^', 'u"' and 'e`'. I'm afraid Dave's right. We've been thru this before. Those with Windows machines can probaby set their "font" for John's Siouan Doulos and retrieve a fairly large number of the special symbols. But those fonts seem to be a problem for at least some Macs and those who read their email in DOS-based systems like Pine are out of luck. It takes a better man than me to predict how Unix would respond (tho' I think our old Pine system here ran under Unix). I'd love to get everyone on the same page so we could use all of our Siouanist symbols, but I'm not holding my breath. Bob From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Jun 12 00:46:04 2002 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:46:04 -0500 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Message-ID: Carolyn Quintero wrote: > Now, can I make macros to use these special > characters in Outlook Express so I don't have to type in so many codes. I > do quite a bit of correspondence in Spanish and need the Spanish > characters..upside down question mark and exclamation mark, enye, accented > vowels, umlaut. On Windows 98 (and XP, I'm sure), if your keyboard is set to international, you'll be able to type "European" characters easily: for e with acute accent, for example, type the single quote (acute accent) followed by e. The single quote will appear dead till the e is struck, when e-acute magically appears. Same with double quote + u = u-umlaut, etc. The drawback is that you have to override this automatic feature if, for instance, you want to type "a..: you have to strike the double quote twice, when two double quotes will appear, then backspace once and type the a. For those who use special characters a lot, though, it's well worth the bother. Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Jun 12 00:53:43 2002 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:53:43 -0500 Subject: symbol sets Message-ID: And, as I'm sure I've said before, the mid- to long-term solution is for everyone to use Unicode. http://www.unicode.org/ Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Jun 12 00:57:57 2002 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:57:57 -0500 Subject: rattlesnakes Message-ID: David Costa wrote: > I'd treat you all to a huge cognate set > but this *IS* supposed to be a Siouan list... :-) Well, how about an Algonquian list? (Has there ever been one, is there one now, or are there plans for one? Surely there should be.) Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Jun 12 15:19:11 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:19:11 -0600 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. In-Reply-To: <001901c21184$d22fd2e0$0e15460a@direcpc.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Jun 2002, Carolyn Quintero wrote: > -? I see dash ^J (which is a carriage control) > ??? I see ^J^J^J > ? I see ^Z > ? I see a pi > ? I see a mu > ? I see the three-bar equivalence sign > ? I see the plus or minus sign > I would like to thank Brad Coon, and say that I worked on this problem for a > long time with several computer folks, and none were able to solve it for > me. Thanks a million, Brad. Now, can I make macros to use these special > characters in Outlook Express so I don't have to type in so many codes. I > do quite a bit of correspondence in Spanish and need the Spanish > characters..upside down question mark and exclamation mark, enye, accented > vowels, umlaut. > BTW, since I'm on a laptop, ofcourse the number pad is activated by the Fn > key. Alt, Fn, +code gets the characters. Incidentally, if the issue is typing Spanish in Windows it is possible to install a Windows Spanish keyboard definition (there are a number of different ones) or the USA International, and get your keyboard set up so that certain keys now work as they would in Spain, Mexico, etc., to produce enye, Spanish quotation marks, etc., or certain sequences of keys (in the USA International) will do this. This only solves part of the problems for Siouanists, but nails down Spanish pretty well. You need your Windows disk handy, since Windows will need some files off of it, and you start from settings > control panel > keyboard > language. You can select the active keyboard (if you have several installed ) in the tray or in the login display. In my experience all recent versions of Windows sometimes drop tray icons at login time (they just never appear), at least if you have a lot. There's some chatter about this on the net as an unsolved bug. I believe you can select in this case in the keyboard tool. The real problem with this is that it can be a bit difficult to choke the descriptions of the keyboards (what characters where) out of the Microsoft site. I have managed in the past by being persistant. The Spanish, etc., solution don't work for Siouan because we have some character + diacritic combinations not imagined in Eastern Europe (let alone the Peninsula). Of course, the Corvinologists can get along with the basic English keyboard. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Jun 12 15:38:24 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:38:24 -0600 Subject: rattlesnakes In-Reply-To: <3D069C95.C7ACD62@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Jun 2002, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > Well, how about an Algonquian list? (Has there ever been one, is there > one now, or are there plans for one? Surely there should be.) I don't know if there ever has been one. There was an Iroquoian list, but I'm told it didn't work for various reasons - essentially it wasn't linguistic enough for the linguists. One reason I sort of worry when we stray too far, as we occasionally do. I did once offer to operate a Caddoan list, but got the impression that the Caddoanists didn't really need one, being a small group already in constant communication. I'd cheerfully run any three of these lists (and Muskogean, too), if there was any interest and David Rood agreed to sponsor the situation with the University of Colorado, but it would have to be understood that it would be more or less a silent operation on my part. I wouldn't be able to kick start the list as I occasionally do here, and I might not even be listening in. Essentially I'd just be granting subscriptions and deleting people who can't do it themselves or who disappear. (I more and more frequently have had to block subscriptions from what appear to be spamming operations.) I suspect it would be better in each of these cases if there was someone who was actually working in the field doing the management. I have a few suggestions that might help, if you're interested. JEK From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Wed Jun 12 16:19:08 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:19:08 -0500 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. Message-ID: Thanks, John, for the advice. The problem with this solution is that the Spanish keyboard has many characters in the "wrong" places on the keyboard. It's so confusing, especially if you use another keyboard at times, that it's not worth the hassle. I've gone this route, even relabling my keyboard with little stick-on labels, but it's a mess. Carolyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 10:19 AM Subject: Re: symbol sets and rattlesnake. On Tue, 11 Jun 2002, Carolyn Quintero wrote: > -? I see dash ^J (which is a carriage control) > ??? I see ^J^J^J > ? I see ^Z > ? I see a pi > ? I see a mu > ? I see the three-bar equivalence sign > ? I see the plus or minus sign > I would like to thank Brad Coon, and say that I worked on this problem for a > long time with several computer folks, and none were able to solve it for > me. Thanks a million, Brad. Now, can I make macros to use these special > characters in Outlook Express so I don't have to type in so many codes. I > do quite a bit of correspondence in Spanish and need the Spanish > characters..upside down question mark and exclamation mark, enye, accented > vowels, umlaut. > BTW, since I'm on a laptop, ofcourse the number pad is activated by the Fn > key. Alt, Fn, +code gets the characters. Incidentally, if the issue is typing Spanish in Windows it is possible to install a Windows Spanish keyboard definition (there are a number of different ones) or the USA International, and get your keyboard set up so that certain keys now work as they would in Spain, Mexico, etc., to produce enye, Spanish quotation marks, etc., or certain sequences of keys (in the USA International) will do this. This only solves part of the problems for Siouanists, but nails down Spanish pretty well. You need your Windows disk handy, since Windows will need some files off of it, and you start from settings > control panel > keyboard > language. You can select the active keyboard (if you have several installed ) in the tray or in the login display. In my experience all recent versions of Windows sometimes drop tray icons at login time (they just never appear), at least if you have a lot. There's some chatter about this on the net as an unsolved bug. I believe you can select in this case in the keyboard tool. The real problem with this is that it can be a bit difficult to choke the descriptions of the keyboards (what characters where) out of the Microsoft site. I have managed in the past by being persistant. The Spanish, etc., solution don't work for Siouan because we have some character + diacritic combinations not imagined in Eastern Europe (let alone the Peninsula). Of course, the Corvinologists can get along with the basic English keyboard. From Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com Wed Jun 12 17:35:00 2002 From: Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 18:35:00 +0100 Subject: symbol sets in British perspective Message-ID: Colleagues: Yes, we do get $ here - it's above the numeral 4 on my keyboard. Does ?, above 3 here, come out as a pound sign? I've got quite used to dealing with email data sent in numerous ad hoc codes adapted to the requirements of the qwerty keyboard. As long as a code is used which we can all agree on, the actual forms used shouldn't be too troublesome. (I can imagine some knotty problems with cases such as nasalised stressed vowels in Dhegiha.) Terry Kaufman (whose table of Siuouan correspondences dates from the 1960s and is supposed to be really good) used to use 7 for glottal stop and 9 for angma/eng, which are fine as long as one knows what to look for. I tried to get on the iroquoian list which JEK mentioned an never got a response. As a casual Caddoanist, I'd certainly be keen to participate or at least 'lurk' on such a list. In fact, I'm surprised that there aren't more lists of this sort in general, though most of them get spanmmed fairly swiftly. (I tuned out of an Austronesian list once one of the participants started putting large chunks of his political/erotic novel on the list every weekend.) Anthony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Jun 12 17:44:02 2002 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:44:02 -0500 Subject: symbol sets in British perspective Message-ID: Anthony, > Yes, we do get $ here - it's above the numeral 4 on my keyboard. Does > ?, above 3 here, come out as a pound sign? Yes it does for me, at least (on Windows). In the U.S., it's the # (number) sign that's above 3. > I tried to get on the iroquoian list which JEK mentioned an never got > a response. I've received one Iroquoian message, in March 2000. Alan From shanwest at uvic.ca Wed Jun 12 18:30:19 2002 From: shanwest at uvic.ca (Shannon West) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:30:19 -0700 Subject: rattlesnakes In-Reply-To: <3D069C95.C7ACD62@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of Alan H. Hartley > Sent: June 11, 2002 5:58 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: rattlesnakes > > > David Costa wrote: > > > I'd treat you all to a huge cognate set > > but this *IS* supposed to be a Siouan list... :-) > > Well, how about an Algonquian list? (Has there ever been one, is there > one now, or are there plans for one? Surely there should be.) I'd certainly be interested. I've got my eye on Algonquian. :) If there's interest enough, I'd be happy to set it up. If people are interested, email me directly at shanwest at uvic.ca, and if it bounces, as it does for anyone on a ORDB, NJABL, or VISI's blacklist, try shannonwest at hotpop.com. Shannon From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Jun 13 06:43:43 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 00:43:43 -0600 Subject: symbol sets and rattlesnake. In-Reply-To: <002e01c2122c$e87c0ca0$0e15460a@direcpc.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, Carolyn Quintero wrote: > Thanks, John, for the advice. The problem with this solution is that the > Spanish keyboard has many characters in the "wrong" places on the keyboard. > It's so confusing, especially if you use another keyboard at times, that > it's not worth the hassle. I've gone this route, even relabling my keyboard > with little stick-on labels, but it's a mess. The one I've always used is the International one, which represents enye, for example, with n~ (or ~n - I forget). Especially when combined with a switch in the tray I don't find this onorous. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Jun 13 07:46:01 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 01:46:01 -0600 Subject: symbol sets in British perspective [and Constitution of the List] In-Reply-To: <000a01c21237$7b3d2060$1573073e@a5h1k3> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, Anthony Grant wrote: > Yes, we do get $ here - it's above the numeral 4 on my keyboard. > Does ?, above 3 here, come out as a pound sign? I see the character after "does" as an accented u. What's above 3 on a standard US keyboard is a thing called the pound sign, basically looking like a tic-tac-toe (naughts and crosses) cross-hatching. > I tried to get on the iroquoian list which JEK mentioned an never got > a response. I got on, but only saw one or two posts, of a marginal nature, and years ago. > I'm surprised that there aren't more lists of this sort in general, > though most of them get spanmmed fairly swiftly. (I tuned out of an > Austronesian list once one of the participants started putting large > chunks of his political/erotic novel on the list every weekend.) About the only policing I've needed so far is this: - Only subscribers can submit traffic (others occasionally try). - Only people I know to be lingistically interested in Siouan languages get on. I have the list set up so that I must approve all subscriptions. I ask questions of anyone whom I don't recognize. A miniscule but increasing applicants fail to answer these questions. Note that approval is not needed to leave the list. - I very occasionally warn somebody about inappropriate topics. Maybe twice, and one of these cases asked nicely beforehand. I would delete anyone posting clearly inappropriate (or wildly irrelevant or significantly irrational or really rude) material immediately and arbitrarily and ask questions (maybe) later. This has never happened, though I think we've bored a few people to death. Sooner or later it will happen, of course. I have no precise criteria for inappropriate, irrelevant, or irrational, but I generally know them when I see them and if I'm ever in doubt, I'll ask. - I do not have things set up so that I have to approve postings, and I most certainly don't edit anything. - If I fall out of touch with the will of the subscribers, I assume they will let me know. I'll be glad to let anyone better in touch handle things. The Chief Executive, responsible for firing me and replacing me if it becomes necessary is David Rood. JEK From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Thu Jun 13 13:34:38 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:34:38 -0500 Subject: symbol sets in British perspective [and Constitution of the List] Message-ID: I see the character after "does" in Anthony's message as a British pound sign in this email.. However, on my keyboard, the character above 3 is the pound-sign (like tic-tac-toe), or what was in the early days of computing around 1982 called "scrunch" by computer folks. I've called it "scrunch" ever since, but not many people know this term? Carolyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 2:46 AM Subject: Re: symbol sets in British perspective [and Constitution of the List] On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, Anthony Grant wrote: > Yes, we do get $ here - it's above the numeral 4 on my keyboard. > Does ?, above 3 here, come out as a pound sign? I see the character after "does" as an accented u. What's above 3 on a standard US keyboard is a thing called the pound sign, basically looking like a tic-tac-toe (naughts and crosses) cross-hatching. > I tried to get on the iroquoian list which JEK mentioned an never got > a response. I got on, but only saw one or two posts, of a marginal nature, and years ago. > I'm surprised that there aren't more lists of this sort in general, > though most of them get spanmmed fairly swiftly. (I tuned out of an > Austronesian list once one of the participants started putting large > chunks of his political/erotic novel on the list every weekend.) About the only policing I've needed so far is this: - Only subscribers can submit traffic (others occasionally try). - Only people I know to be lingistically interested in Siouan languages get on. I have the list set up so that I must approve all subscriptions. I ask questions of anyone whom I don't recognize. A miniscule but increasing applicants fail to answer these questions. Note that approval is not needed to leave the list. - I very occasionally warn somebody about inappropriate topics. Maybe twice, and one of these cases asked nicely beforehand. I would delete anyone posting clearly inappropriate (or wildly irrelevant or significantly irrational or really rude) material immediately and arbitrarily and ask questions (maybe) later. This has never happened, though I think we've bored a few people to death. Sooner or later it will happen, of course. I have no precise criteria for inappropriate, irrelevant, or irrational, but I generally know them when I see them and if I'm ever in doubt, I'll ask. - I do not have things set up so that I have to approve postings, and I most certainly don't edit anything. - If I fall out of touch with the will of the subscribers, I assume they will let me know. I'll be glad to let anyone better in touch handle things. The Chief Executive, responsible for firing me and replacing me if it becomes necessary is David Rood. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Jun 13 18:11:19 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:11:19 -0600 Subject: symbol sets in British perspective In-Reply-To: <002501c212df$17111e40$0e15460a@direcpc.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Carolyn Quintero wrote: > ... However, on my keyboard, the character above 3 is the > pound-sign (like tic-tac-toe), or what was in the early days of computing > around 1982 called "scrunch" by computer folks. I've called it "scrunch" > ever since, but not many people know this term? The only oddity in this line I can think of is that Unix people call exclamation mark "bang." JEK From Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com Thu Jun 13 18:33:03 2002 From: Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:33:03 +0100 Subject: pound signs Message-ID: What you guys call the pound sign, the noughts and crosses sign (I know what tic-tac-toe is but I've spent a lot of time in the US and most Brits would just be puzzled) is called the Hash sign here. Probably from French hache 'axe'. It's fairly recent in use in Britain: we wouldn't have understood what the sign in (say) 'Riot in Cell Block #9' meant 20 years ago. Now that we have it, I wonder how we ever lived without it. I customarily use $ for the posatalveolar sibilant in postings to people I think will understand. British keyboards don't have the cent sign, though, which is a pity as I've long liked it as a quick way of signalling /ts/ in the way that Mayanists use it. Anthony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Thu Jun 13 18:44:45 2002 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:44:45 -0600 Subject: pound signs In-Reply-To: <004b01c21308$c1acf940$0d51073e@a5h1k3> Message-ID: This is way out of the realm of Siouanist discussions, but since we're naming the # sign in various cultures, I'm reminded of a problem I had programming my German cellphone. I was supposed to do something and then press the "raute Taste" (Taste - key, button), which experimentation finally showed me to be the pound sign. "Raut" refers to either a rhomboid in technical geometry terms, or the diamond in a deck of cards. Neither of those meanings struck me as right for #; does that say something about the way we match and categorize abstract symbols in various cultures, or am I just dumb about such things? David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Anthony Grant wrote: > What you guys call the pound sign, the noughts and crosses sign (I know what tic-tac-toe is but I've spent a lot of time in the US and most Brits would just be puzzled) is called the Hash sign here. Probably from French hache 'axe'. It's fairly recent in use in Britain: we wouldn't have understood what the sign in (say) 'Riot in Cell Block #9' meant 20 years ago. Now that we have it, I wonder how we ever lived without it. > > I customarily use $ for the posatalveolar sibilant in postings to people I think will understand. British keyboards don't have the cent sign, though, which is a pity as I've long liked it as a quick way of signalling /ts/ in the way that Mayanists use it. > > Anthony > From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Thu Jun 13 18:49:10 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:49:10 -0500 Subject: symbol sets in British perspective Message-ID: I like both "scrunch" and "bang" and shall use them henceforth. Carolyn PS shouldn't we name the question mark "quiz"? Then I need a name for the upside-down-question mark, too. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 1:11 PM Subject: Re: symbol sets in British perspective > On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Carolyn Quintero wrote: > > ... However, on my keyboard, the character above 3 is the > > pound-sign (like tic-tac-toe), or what was in the early days of computing > > around 1982 called "scrunch" by computer folks. I've called it "scrunch" > > ever since, but not many people know this term? > > The only oddity in this line I can think of is that Unix people call > exclamation mark "bang." > > JEK > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Jun 13 19:00:50 2002 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:00:50 -0700 Subject: nothing whatsoever to do with Siouan, but... Message-ID: 'Ziuq' would be the only possible choice. :-) Dave ---------- >From: "Carolyn Quintero" >To: >Subject: Re: symbol sets in British perspective >Date: Thu, Jun 13, 2002, 11:49 am > > PS shouldn't we name the question mark "quiz"? Then I need a name for the > upside-down-question mark, too. From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Thu Jun 13 18:57:12 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:57:12 -0500 Subject: pound signs Message-ID: I've noticed that in the US on company phone lines where I often listen in Spanish, the scrunch-hash-pound sign is referred to as "el signo de numero", but in English as "the pound sign" in the corresponding set of instructions. This sign isn't really used all that much for "number" in Spanish, though. I guess they just couldn't think of any other way of describing it than "the number sign", at least a better choice than rhomboid/diamond, or "pound" which for sure wouldn't mean anything to Spanish speakers. Carolyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "ROOD DAVID S" To: "Anthony Grant" Cc: Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 1:44 PM Subject: Re: pound signs > > This is way out of the realm of Siouanist discussions, but since we're > naming the # sign in various cultures, I'm reminded of a problem I had > programming my German cellphone. I was supposed to do something and then > press the "raute Taste" (Taste - key, button), which experimentation > finally showed me to be the pound sign. "Raut" refers to either a rhomboid > in technical geometry terms, or the diamond in a deck of cards. Neither > of those meanings struck me as right for #; does that say something about > the way we match and categorize abstract symbols in various cultures, or > am I just dumb about such things? > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Anthony Grant wrote: > > > What you guys call the pound sign, the noughts and crosses sign (I know what tic-tac-toe is but I've spent a lot of time in the US and most Brits would just be puzzled) is called the Hash sign here. Probably from French hache 'axe'. It's fairly recent in use in Britain: we wouldn't have understood what the sign in (say) 'Riot in Cell Block #9' meant 20 years ago. Now that we have it, I wonder how we ever lived without it. > > > > I customarily use $ for the posatalveolar sibilant in postings to people I think will understand. British keyboards don't have the cent sign, though, which is a pity as I've long liked it as a quick way of signalling /ts/ in the way that Mayanists use it. > > > > Anthony > > > From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Thu Jun 13 19:15:15 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:15:15 -0500 Subject: nothing whatsoever to do with Siouan, but... Message-ID: Then upside-down-exclamation would have to be "gnab" (would the g be pronounced?). ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Costa" To: Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 2:00 PM Subject: nothing whatsoever to do with Siouan, but... > 'Ziuq' would be the only possible choice. :-) > > Dave > > ---------- > >From: "Carolyn Quintero" > >To: > >Subject: Re: symbol sets in British perspective > >Date: Thu, Jun 13, 2002, 11:49 am > > > > > PS shouldn't we name the question mark "quiz"? Then I need a name for the > > upside-down-question mark, too. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Jun 13 19:48:53 2002 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:48:53 -0700 Subject: nothing whatsoever to do with Siouan, but... Message-ID: It would of course be pronounced in the Italian manner, as [nyab]. ---------- >From: "Carolyn Quintero" >To: >Subject: Re: nothing whatsoever to do with Siouan, but... >Date: Thu, Jun 13, 2002, 12:15 pm > > Then upside-down-exclamation would have to be "gnab" (would the g be > pronounced?). > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Costa" > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 2:00 PM > Subject: nothing whatsoever to do with Siouan, but... > > >> 'Ziuq' would be the only possible choice. :-) >> >> Dave >> >> ---------- >> >From: "Carolyn Quintero" >> >To: >> >Subject: Re: symbol sets in British perspective >> >Date: Thu, Jun 13, 2002, 11:49 am >> > > >>> PS shouldn't we name the question mark "quiz"? Then I need a name for the >>> upside-down-question mark, too. > From rankin at ku.edu Thu Jun 13 20:18:10 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 15:18:10 -0500 Subject: pound signs Message-ID: I've always called the # sign above the 3 on the US keyboard "cross hatch". Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: ROOD DAVID S To: Anthony Grant Cc: Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 1:44 PM Subject: Re: pound signs > > This is way out of the realm of Siouanist discussions, but since we're > naming the # sign in various cultures, I'm reminded of a problem I had > programming my German cellphone. I was supposed to do something and then > press the "raute Taste" (Taste - key, button), which experimentation > finally showed me to be the pound sign. "Raut" refers to either a rhomboid > in technical geometry terms, or the diamond in a deck of cards. Neither > of those meanings struck me as right for #; does that say something about > the way we match and categorize abstract symbols in various cultures, or > am I just dumb about such things? > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Anthony Grant wrote: > > > What you guys call the pound sign, the noughts and crosses sign (I know what tic-tac-toe is but I've spent a lot of time in the US and most Brits would just be puzzled) is called the Hash sign here. Probably from French hache 'axe'. It's fairly recent in use in Britain: we wouldn't have understood what the sign in (say) 'Riot in Cell Block #9' meant 20 years ago. Now that we have it, I wonder how we ever lived without it. > > > > I customarily use $ for the posatalveolar sibilant in postings to people I think will understand. British keyboards don't have the cent sign, though, which is a pity as I've long liked it as a quick way of signalling /ts/ in the way that Mayanists use it. > > > > Anthony > > > From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Thu Jun 13 21:41:36 2002 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 15:41:36 -0600 Subject: pound signs In-Reply-To: <004101c21318$3f47ad00$e2b5ed81@rankin> Message-ID: Armik and I were discussing this discussion and realized that the symbol above the 3 is to be called the "pound sign" in both American and British jargon -- but refers to a different symbol, depending on which side of the pond you're on. The designers of typewriter keyboards are to be commended for choosing so carefully, eh? David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, R. Rankin wrote: > I've always called the # sign above the 3 on the US keyboard "cross hatch". > Bob > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ROOD DAVID S > To: Anthony Grant > Cc: > Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 1:44 PM > Subject: Re: pound signs > > > > > > This is way out of the realm of Siouanist discussions, but since we're > > naming the # sign in various cultures, I'm reminded of a problem I had > > programming my German cellphone. I was supposed to do something and then > > press the "raute Taste" (Taste - key, button), which experimentation > > finally showed me to be the pound sign. "Raut" refers to either a rhomboid > > in technical geometry terms, or the diamond in a deck of cards. Neither > > of those meanings struck me as right for #; does that say something about > > the way we match and categorize abstract symbols in various cultures, or > > am I just dumb about such things? > > > > > > David S. Rood > > Dept. of Linguistics > > Univ. of Colorado > > 295 UCB > > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > > USA > > rood at colorado.edu > > > > On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Anthony Grant wrote: > > > > > What you guys call the pound sign, the noughts and crosses sign (I know > what tic-tac-toe is but I've spent a lot of time in the US and most Brits > would just be puzzled) is called the Hash sign here. Probably from French > hache 'axe'. It's fairly recent in use in Britain: we wouldn't have > understood what the sign in (say) 'Riot in Cell Block #9' meant 20 years > ago. Now that we have it, I wonder how we ever lived without it. > > > > > > I customarily use $ for the posatalveolar sibilant in postings to people > I think will understand. British keyboards don't have the cent sign, > though, which is a pity as I've long liked it as a quick way of signalling > /ts/ in the way that Mayanists use it. > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > From boris at terracom.net Thu Jun 13 21:47:26 2002 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 16:47:26 -0500 Subject: pound signs Message-ID: Wouldn't you say that would be..... which side of the pound? :) Alan K ----- Original Message ----- From: "ROOD DAVID S" To: Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 4:41 PM Subject: Re: pound signs > > Armik and I were discussing this discussion and realized that the symbol > above the 3 is to be called the "pound sign" in both American and British > jargon -- but refers to a different symbol, depending on which side of the > pond you're on. The designers of typewriter keyboards are to be commended > for choosing so carefully, eh? > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, R. Rankin wrote: > > > I've always called the # sign above the 3 on the US keyboard "cross hatch". > > Bob > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: ROOD DAVID S > > To: Anthony Grant > > Cc: > > Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 1:44 PM > > Subject: Re: pound signs > > > > > > > > > > This is way out of the realm of Siouanist discussions, but since we're > > > naming the # sign in various cultures, I'm reminded of a problem I had > > > programming my German cellphone. I was supposed to do something and then > > > press the "raute Taste" (Taste - key, button), which experimentation > > > finally showed me to be the pound sign. "Raut" refers to either a rhomboid > > > in technical geometry terms, or the diamond in a deck of cards. Neither > > > of those meanings struck me as right for #; does that say something about > > > the way we match and categorize abstract symbols in various cultures, or > > > am I just dumb about such things? > > > > > > > > > David S. Rood > > > Dept. of Linguistics > > > Univ. of Colorado > > > 295 UCB > > > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > > > USA > > > rood at colorado.edu > > > > > > On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Anthony Grant wrote: > > > > > > > What you guys call the pound sign, the noughts and crosses sign (I know > > what tic-tac-toe is but I've spent a lot of time in the US and most Brits > > would just be puzzled) is called the Hash sign here. Probably from French > > hache 'axe'. It's fairly recent in use in Britain: we wouldn't have > > understood what the sign in (say) 'Riot in Cell Block #9' meant 20 years > > ago. Now that we have it, I wonder how we ever lived without it. > > > > > > > > I customarily use $ for the posatalveolar sibilant in postings to people > > I think will understand. British keyboards don't have the cent sign, > > though, which is a pity as I've long liked it as a quick way of signalling > > /ts/ in the way that Mayanists use it. > > > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > From jggoodtracks at juno.com Fri Jun 14 00:16:32 2002 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:16:32 -0500 Subject: Dakotan 'wakhaN' Message-ID: For what it is worth, I listed -kan as a root for sacred/ holy. I looked up Ken Miners lexicon on Winnebago and noticed that he, too, had listed it in the same manner. jgt On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:48:46 EDT Rgraczyk at aol.com writes: > In a message dated 06/08/2002 4:54:37 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > rankin at ku.edu writes: > > > > Is it also possible that the root of 'sacred' was just -hkaN and > that the > > wa- nominalized it? > > > > Something similar has happened in Crow, although the forms are not > cognate. > > Hidatsa has xupa'a 'holy, sacred', and Crow has baaxpa'a < > baa-x(u)pa'a. > > > Although the Crow form has the baa- prefix, it is a stative verb and > not a > noun. > > Randy From enichol4 at attbi.com Fri Jun 14 03:19:50 2002 From: enichol4 at attbi.com (Eric) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 22:19:50 -0500 Subject: nothing whatsoever to do with Siouan, but... Message-ID: "zinb", maybe? -Eric ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Costa" To: Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 2:00 PM Subject: nothing whatsoever to do with Siouan, but... > 'Ziuq' would be the only possible choice. :-) > > Dave > > ---------- > >From: "Carolyn Quintero" > >To: > >Subject: Re: symbol sets in British perspective > >Date: Thu, Jun 13, 2002, 11:49 am > > > > > PS shouldn't we name the question mark "quiz"? Then I need a name for the > > upside-down-question mark, too. > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Jun 16 21:31:44 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 15:31:44 -0600 Subject: Stoney (fwd) Message-ID: Rerouted to the list: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 15:31:07 -0600 (MDT) From: Koontz John E To: Anthony Grant Subject: Re: Stoney On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Anthony Grant wrote: > can anyone point me to recent work on Stoney? I know the Parks and > Demallie article, which is what sparked my curiosity. I'm especially > interested in the effects of Cree on the language, and on the > processes which have made Stoney progressively more distinct from > Assiniboin(e). There was an article by Allan Taylor some years ago in the now defunct Siouan & Caddoan Newsletter which was, as I recall, on Stoney phonology, etc., as an evolution of Assiniboine influenced by Cree. I don't have the citation or the article handy. JEK From rankin at ku.edu Sun Jun 16 22:07:10 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 17:07:10 -0500 Subject: Stoney (fwd) Message-ID: Isn't/wasn't one of Doug and/or Ray's grad students working on Stoney a coupla years ago? Ed Cook at Calgary was interested in it too sometime back, but I don't know if anything ever came of it. You could email both and see. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: Koontz John E To: Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 4:31 PM Subject: Re: Stoney (fwd) > Rerouted to the list: > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 15:31:07 -0600 (MDT) > From: Koontz John E > To: Anthony Grant > Subject: Re: Stoney > > On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Anthony Grant wrote: > > can anyone point me to recent work on Stoney? I know the Parks and > > Demallie article, which is what sparked my curiosity. I'm especially > > interested in the effects of Cree on the language, and on the > > processes which have made Stoney progressively more distinct from > > Assiniboin(e). > > There was an article by Allan Taylor some years ago in the now defunct > Siouan & Caddoan Newsletter which was, as I recall, on Stoney phonology, > etc., as an evolution of Assiniboine influenced by Cree. I don't have the > citation or the article handy. > > JEK > > From egooding at iupui.edu Mon Jun 17 00:52:25 2002 From: egooding at iupui.edu (Erik Gooding) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 19:52:25 -0500 Subject: Stoney (fwd) In-Reply-To: <001901c21582$29fa5a80$e1b5ed81@rankin> Message-ID: I've got a Stoney bibliography in my office, I spent some time at Alexis and Morley during the summers of 97-99. If anyone is interested I can email them off list. Erik G. At 05:07 PM 6/16/02 -0500, you wrote: >Isn't/wasn't one of Doug and/or Ray's grad students >working on Stoney a coupla years ago? Ed Cook at >Calgary was interested in it too sometime back, but I >don't know if anything ever came of it. You could >email both and see. > >Bob > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Koontz John E >To: >Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 4:31 PM >Subject: Re: Stoney (fwd) > > >> Rerouted to the list: >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 15:31:07 -0600 (MDT) >> From: Koontz John E >> To: Anthony Grant >> Subject: Re: Stoney >> >> On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Anthony Grant wrote: >> > can anyone point me to recent work on Stoney? I >know the Parks and >> > Demallie article, which is what sparked my >curiosity. I'm especially >> > interested in the effects of Cree on the language, >and on the >> > processes which have made Stoney progressively more >distinct from >> > Assiniboin(e). >> >> There was an article by Allan Taylor some years ago >in the now defunct >> Siouan & Caddoan Newsletter which was, as I recall, >on Stoney phonology, >> etc., as an evolution of Assiniboine influenced by >Cree. I don't have the >> citation or the article handy. >> >> JEK >> >> > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jun 17 11:22:20 2002 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 06:22:20 -0500 Subject: Underwater Cat In-Reply-To: <001901c21582$29fa5a80$e1b5ed81@rankin> Message-ID: Does Siouan, or for that matter Muskogean, cosmology have the Underwater Panther, Underwater Cat, characteristic of Algonquian and Iroquoian? Thanks, Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Jun 17 17:43:15 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 11:43:15 -0600 Subject: Underwater Cat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Does Siouan, or for that matter Muskogean, cosmology have the Underwater > Panther, Underwater Cat, characteristic of Algonquian and Iroquoian? Yes. There was a discussion of this not too long ago, but I guess just long enough ago, under the heading of watermonster that would appear in the archives. Go to http://www.linguistlist.org, select archives lists, go to Siouan and then search on watermonster and/or panther. The recent discussion on terms for sacred and snake would also be applicable. JEK From Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com Mon Jun 17 17:52:33 2002 From: Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 18:52:33 +0100 Subject: Stoney (fwd) Message-ID: Dear Erik: as you may guess, I'm interested! Best wishes and thanks Anthony ----- Original Message ----- From: Erik Gooding To: Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 1:52 AM Subject: Re: Stoney (fwd) > I've got a Stoney bibliography in my office, I spent some time at Alexis > and Morley during the summers of 97-99. If anyone is interested I can email > them off list. > > Erik G. > > > At 05:07 PM 6/16/02 -0500, you wrote: > >Isn't/wasn't one of Doug and/or Ray's grad students > >working on Stoney a coupla years ago? Ed Cook at > >Calgary was interested in it too sometime back, but I > >don't know if anything ever came of it. You could > >email both and see. > > > >Bob > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Koontz John E > >To: > >Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 4:31 PM > >Subject: Re: Stoney (fwd) > > > > > >> Rerouted to the list: > >> > >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 15:31:07 -0600 (MDT) > >> From: Koontz John E > >> To: Anthony Grant > >> Subject: Re: Stoney > >> > >> On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Anthony Grant wrote: > >> > can anyone point me to recent work on Stoney? I > >know the Parks and > >> > Demallie article, which is what sparked my > >curiosity. I'm especially > >> > interested in the effects of Cree on the language, > >and on the > >> > processes which have made Stoney progressively more > >distinct from > >> > Assiniboin(e). > >> > >> There was an article by Allan Taylor some years ago > >in the now defunct > >> Siouan & Caddoan Newsletter which was, as I recall, > >on Stoney phonology, > >> etc., as an evolution of Assiniboine influenced by > >Cree. I don't have the > >> citation or the article handy. > >> > >> JEK > >> > >> > > > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Jun 17 19:05:04 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 13:05:04 -0600 Subject: Underwater Cat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Does Siouan, or for that matter Muskogean, cosmology have the Underwater > Panther, Underwater Cat, characteristic of Algonquian and Iroquoian? Michael's question reminds me that it might be informative in regard to Siouan terms for 'sacred', 'snake', 'watermonster', etc., to look at Algonquian usage with manitou, which I think has some semantic parallels. I don't know if there are any grammatical parallels. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jun 17 19:17:05 2002 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:17:05 -0500 Subject: Underwater Cat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There are cosmogonic parallels, as the Underwater Cat and the snake are constellated within the same archetypal field--long things. Long tails, long bodies. On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > Does Siouan, or for that matter Muskogean, cosmology have the Underwater > > Panther, Underwater Cat, characteristic of Algonquian and Iroquoian? > > Michael's question reminds me that it might be informative in regard to > Siouan terms for 'sacred', 'snake', 'watermonster', etc., to look at > Algonquian usage with manitou, which I think has some semantic parallels. > I don't know if there are any grammatical parallels. > > > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu "Talking is often a torment for me, and I need many days of silence to recover from the futility of words. C.G. Jung "...as a dog howls at the moon, I talk." Rumi From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Jun 17 19:31:07 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 13:31:07 -0600 Subject: Underwater Cat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > There are cosmogonic parallels, as the Underwater Cat and the snake are > constellated within the same archetypal field--long things. Long tails, > long bodies. Aren't there also cases of derivatives of manitou being used both of sacred things, or mysterious creatures, including perhaps, watermonsters, and God? From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Jun 17 20:14:35 2002 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 13:14:35 -0700 Subject: Underwater Cat Message-ID: > On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Michael Mccafferty wrote: >> There are cosmogonic parallels, as the Underwater Cat and the snake are >> constellated within the same archetypal field--long things. Long tails, >> long bodies. > > Aren't there also cases of derivatives of manitou being used both of > sacred things, or mysterious creatures, including perhaps, watermonsters, > and God? Well... *AHEM*... speaking just of Miami-Illinois, the word /manetoowa/ is also used for the aquatic Seven Headed Monster in a Peoria trickster story elicited 100 years ago. In late M-I, the word seems not to have been used for 'god' much anymore, tho speakers seemed to realize that overtones like that still clung to the word. Some speakers said the word meant 'devil'. The truly unexpected thing is that the obviously related M-I word /manetwa/ means 'snow (when falling)', a quirk not shared by any sister langauges. It has to be related since /manetwa/ is actually the modern M-I form one would *expect* by sound law from PA */maneto:wa/, *not* /manetoowa/. The long /oo/ isn't supposed to be preserved in modern M-I. In Southern New England Algonquian, the reflexes of */maneto:wa/ usually end up being the ordinary words for 'god'. Apologies if I already posted all this info on this list 6 or 8 years ago. :-) Dave From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jun 17 20:24:59 2002 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 15:24:59 -0500 Subject: Underwater Cat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > There are cosmogonic parallels, as the Underwater Cat and the snake are > > constellated within the same archetypal field--long things. Long tails, > > long bodies. > > Aren't there also cases of derivatives of manitou being used both of > sacred things, or mysterious creatures, including perhaps, watermonsters, > and God? Yes. > > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Tue Jun 18 12:14:25 2002 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 13:14:25 +0100 Subject: SCALC 2002 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Rory I think it counts as a 'vision' Bruce no sign of the works of man in any direction, but > only the weird, jagged landscape, and a single black hawk soaring overhead > against a blue sky studded with white clouds tinted salmon in the early > light of dawn-- this certainly qualifies as one of the magic moments of my > life. > > Rory > Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Tue Jun 18 12:26:55 2002 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 13:26:55 +0100 Subject: =(b)(i) in Dhegiha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I remember thinking during our meeting, when speaking about the modal/aspectual type verb that these are commonly verbs like 'sit', 'stand', 'wish', 'have', 'be' etc. Both Arabic and Persian have examples of these for present continuous and Lakota/Dakota as mentioned uses haN or yaNka. An exception to this is in Uyghur, which I was working on last year for a course, where they use the verb atmaq 'to shoot' to produce a participle form. I can't quite remember how it goes but it is something like elivatqan idim 'I had taken' al>el 'take', -ip>-iv 'participle former', at 'shoot', -qan 'completive suffix' id- 'past' -im 'I'. I remember thinking that this is a very 'archery centred' language. However others may know of this suffix and prove me wrong. Bruce On 3 Jun 2002, at 13:07, Koontz John E wrote: > > At the meeting Linda Cumberland described a class of Assiniboine verbs > which are characterized by embedding same subject complements that require > =pi on the embedded clause verb in the present and =ktA in the past. The > embedded verb has no pronominal prefix. These verbs include forms like > 'want' and 'like to/don't like to'. I don't recall the precise list at > the moment. I hope Linda will comment further when she has time, since > she is looking for similar cases and suggestions of additional candidate > verbs to look at. > From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Tue Jun 18 13:35:27 2002 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 14:35:27 +0100 Subject: wakhan in nominal position In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 918 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Tue Jun 18 13:38:43 2002 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 14:38:43 +0100 Subject: wakhan in nominal position In-Reply-To: <6598EB02.74DF45C4.00A0EF2D@aol.com> Message-ID: Ho hecetu. Pilamayaye. As they say in Arabic. "If someone teaches me but a word, I become to him a slave" Bruce On 6 Jun 2002, at 9:42, napsha51 at aol.com wrote: > taku shkanshkan is never an alternative word for God, it means all those moving/living things that are a part of taku wakxan or wakxan txanka. > > the two words hold a huge power, whether you use, taku wakxan or wakxan txanka, it has a feeling connected to it, when I use the word, taku shkanshkan with it, so I give tobacco for it Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu Tue Jun 18 16:03:22 2002 From: rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu (rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 11:03:22 -0500 Subject: SCALC 2002 Message-ID: Hmm.. Well, if I'd for four days without food or water, I'll bet that hawk would have spoken to me too! Rory > Dear Rory > > I think it counts as a 'vision' > > Bruce >> no sign of the works of man in any direction, but >> only the weird, jagged landscape, and a single black hawk soaring overhead >> against a blue sky studded with white clouds tinted salmon in the early >> light of dawn-- this certainly qualifies as one of the magic moments of my >> life. >> >> Rory >> From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Jun 19 14:05:32 2002 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 15:05:32 +0100 Subject: shooting auxiliary Message-ID: Just in case anyone was iinterested in my Altaic interlude, I have consulted my notes and find that the atmaq 'shoot' auxiliary forms continuatives as in : oquvati menel 'take', -ip>-iv 'participle former', at 'shoot', -qan 'completive suffix' id- 'past' -im 'I'. I remember thinking that this is a very 'archery centred' language. However others may know of this suffix and prove me wrong. Bruce On 3 Jun 2002, at 13:07, Koontz John E wrote: > > At the meeting Linda Cumberland described a class of Assiniboine verbs > which are characterized by embedding same subject complements that require > =pi on the embedded clause verb in the present and =ktA in the past. The > embedded verb has no pronominal prefix. These verbs include forms like > 'want' and 'like to/don't like to'. I don't recall the precise list at > the moment. I hope Linda will comment further when she has time, since > she is looking for similar cases and suggestions of additional candidate > verbs to look at. > ------- End of forwarded message ------- Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From rankin at ku.edu Wed Jun 19 18:39:26 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 13:39:26 -0500 Subject: do/done auxiliary Message-ID: > Just in case anyone was iinterested in my Altaic interlude, I have consulted my notes and find that the atmaq 'shoot' auxiliary forms continuatives as in: >oquvati men oquvaqtmaymen 'I am not reading' > oquvatqan idim oquvatqanda The corresponding perfective suffix is -et from etmek 'to finish', Yes, and it's more generally "do" in several other Turkic languages. There are a number of Siouan parallels that, to my knowledge, have never been systematically explored. The corresponding Siouan verb is *?uN 'do, be' and its common instrumental derivative *i?uN 'use, do with'. ?uN crops up on most Siouan languages as a part of various enclitics signaling 'past' or 'perfective', including but not limited to, Dhegiha -noN/-naN, glossed 'past' by Dorsey, and Dhegiha egoN/egaN 'this done', Dakotan k?uN/echuN. It crops up as a past or perfective in Biloxi also, so it isn't just MVS. Someone needs to trace this auxiliary/enclitic through the system. Bob From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Thu Jun 20 15:06:23 2002 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 10:06:23 -0500 Subject: shooting auxiliary Message-ID: Cool! Thanks, Bruce. Ali liked this too. What do you bet there are languages that use "fish" or "herd" or "spin/knit/weave" as a progressive affix? Catherine From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Thu Jun 20 15:14:07 2002 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 10:14:07 -0500 Subject: do/done auxiliary Message-ID: Bob wrote: ...?uN crops up on most Siouan languages as a part of various enclitics signaling 'past' or 'perfective', including but not limited to, Dhegiha -noN/-naN, glossed 'past' by Dorsey,... Is this the -noN (1st person -noNmoN) that I always gloss "usually" or "habitual"? How would past/perfective give this very IMperfective meaning? Or are there (sigh) TWO -noN suffixes? Catherine From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Thu Jun 20 15:17:26 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 10:17:26 -0500 Subject: do/done auxiliary Message-ID: In Osage certainly -naN / -noN appears post-verb-root and is imperfective, 'habitually, always, usually, continually'. It very often appears in 'past' contexts 'was always verb-ing; always used to verb' . Most often followed by -pe, (from api 'pluralizer' dhe 'declarative' )in 3rd person sentences. Is there another -naN that is 'past' or 'perfective'? How is it used? Carolyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC" To: Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:14 AM Subject: Re: do/done auxiliary > > Bob wrote: > ...?uN crops up on most Siouan > languages as a part of various enclitics signaling > 'past' or 'perfective', including but not limited to, > Dhegiha -noN/-naN, glossed 'past' by Dorsey,... > > Is this the -noN (1st person -noNmoN) that I always gloss "usually" or > "habitual"? How would past/perfective give this very IMperfective meaning? > Or are there (sigh) TWO -noN suffixes? Catherine > > From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Jun 20 17:39:25 2002 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:39:25 +0100 Subject: shooting auxiliary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wouldn't be at all surprised. Did he understand my Uyghur message? Bruce On 20 Jun 2002, at 10:06, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > > Cool! Thanks, Bruce. Ali liked this too. What do you bet there are > languages that use "fish" or "herd" or "spin/knit/weave" as a progressive > affix? > Catherine > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Jun 20 17:50:47 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 11:50:47 -0600 Subject: do/done auxiliary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > Bob wrote: > ...?uN crops up on most Siouan > languages as a part of various enclitics signaling > 'past' or 'perfective', including but not limited to, > Dhegiha -noN/-naN, glossed 'past' by Dorsey,... > > Is this the -noN (1st person -noNmoN) that I always gloss "usually" or > "habitual"? How would past/perfective give this very IMperfective meaning? > Or are there (sigh) TWO -noN suffixes? Catherine I think Bob might be referring mainly to the inflected (?)aN (maN, z^aN, sometimes aN in third) that appears (a) After xti TRUELY, VERY and (s^ > h > zero)naN EXCLUSIVELY. This is often essentially a habitual, but cf. e=(s^)naN 'only' < 'exclusively that', not to be confused with e=naN, never any s^ in older texts,m meaning 'so many, that many'. For that many, there are cases where 'habitual' doesn't quite cut the mustard as a gloss, as Carolyn suggests in her response. This aN auxiliary appears in the first and second persons, e.g., =xti=maN, =(s^)naN=z^aN, etc. [The shift of s^n to hn and modern n in the second persons of n-stems and in the habitual/exclusive is just one of those things students of Omaha-Ponca have to deal with. I can't think of any other s^n clusters that get reduced, e.g., I think not in verb-stem initials like s^naN 'bald', so it's a bit weird.] (b) Before az^i NEG in the first person only, e.g., m(aN)=az^i 'I-NEG'. . (c) In s^te 'any, soever', e.g., =s^te=aN ~ =s^t=aN and =s^te=waN. I have no idea what factors account for the alternation among =s^te, =s^te=aN and =s^te=waN. I'm still recovering from Gdh[e]e'daN=s^te=miN 'Any Hawk Woman' as a name. Or W[e]e'z^iN=s^te 'Any Angry, Willful (ones)' as a clan name. He describes at the least the first cases as a perfective in Quapaw, as I recall. I managed to misplace the paper two moves ago! There is also a dhaN that appears in various post-verbal (and other?) contexts that Dorsey glosses 'past'. At the moment I'm not clear on whether this is or is not part of the evidential complex involving the articles the/khe/dhaN/ge in clause final cases (also as 'when' and in time and place Q-words). There are evidential/when cases of =dhaN, but this may be something different. JEK From rankin at ku.edu Thu Jun 20 18:52:54 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 13:52:54 -0500 Subject: do/done auxiliary Message-ID: > In Osage certainly -naN / -noN appears post-verb-root and is imperfective, > 'habitually, always, usually, continually'. It very often appears in > 'past' contexts 'was always verb-ing; always used to verb' . Most often > followed by -pe, (from api 'pluralizer' dhe 'declarative' )in 3rd person > sentences. Is there another -naN that is 'past' or 'perfective'? How is it > used? For Osage, I'm not sure, because the problem here is one of homophony. The 'habitual' /naN/ is a phonologically reduced form of common Dhegiha *-$naN. In Kaw this morpheme reduced to /hnaN/, but in Osage, apparently it lost all trace of the fricative. This leaves it merged with reflexes of *?uN and my guess is that something had to "give" in the system. Like I said, none of us has ever systematically investigated what's become of the various reflexes of ?uN in the various languages. It would make a nice doctoral dissertation for some ambitious young linguist. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Thu Jun 20 19:05:56 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:05:56 -0500 Subject: do/done auxiliary Message-ID: > ...?uN crops up on most Siouan > languages as a part of various enclitics signaling > 'past' or 'perfective', including but not limited to, > Dhegiha -noN/-naN, glossed 'past' by Dorsey,... > Is this the -noN (1st person -noNmoN) that I always gloss "usually" or > "habitual"? How would past/perfective give this very IMperfective meaning? > Or are there (sigh) TWO -noN suffixes? Catherine I haven't checked it out in Omaha systematically. I generally have it glossed 'past' by Dorsey, who wasn't often very specific about aspect as opposed to tense. Nor am I sure whether modern Omaha and Ponca have reduced the older /$n/ cluster to /hn/ or /n/ like Kaw and Osage. Dorsey (1890) seems to have all three variants in different places. About all I can guarantee is that *?uN has become an AUXILIARY for either tense or aspect (probably always the latter) in a variety of Siouan languages -- perhaps even all of them. And if *uN is conjugated for person, the 1st person is indeed /muN/. [Dakotan has normalized the underived /uN/ (1sg wa?uN) but kept the conservative conjugation in the derived 'use'.] Second person in Dhegiha is /z^aN/ or /z^oN/. Other languages have other outcomes for the *y-. My recollection is (and it may be faulty) that reflexes of *-$naN 'usually, used to, habitual' are never conjugated but that reflexes of *?uN are. John will probably remember the Omaha a lot better than I. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Fri Jun 21 18:40:28 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 13:40:28 -0500 Subject: do/done auxiliary Message-ID: > Is this the -noN (1st person -noNmoN) that I always gloss "usually" or > "habitual"? How would past/perfective give this very IMperfective meaning? > Or are there (sigh) TWO -noN suffixes? Catherine Looking at this more closely ... yes, there are clearly two -naN suffixes in Omaha (or one naN and one dhaN) and you exemplified both. The first is probably the -naN from earlier *-$naN, i.e., the 'habitual' proper, while -maN is the first person of the *other* -naN, the one JOD glosses 'past'. This latter one is the conjugated form of *?uN 'do, be'. It acquires an epenthetic initial -n- or -dh- in Dhegiha like several other V-initial auxiliaries do. And it is the second one of these that I've been referring to in this thread unless I referred specifically to the 'habitual'. Bob From shanwest at uvic.ca Fri Jun 21 22:12:52 2002 From: shanwest at uvic.ca (Shannon West) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 15:12:52 -0700 Subject: Algonquian list In-Reply-To: <001e01c21953$1e634f40$c0b5ed81@oemcomputer> Message-ID: Hi all. I've been working at getting an algonquian list going, and I'm working out a few bugs (like a really really slow server - I could walk the messages to people faster - and I'm not fast). But just to let y'all know that I will get one up and going. Shannon West From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Jun 22 23:51:12 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 17:51:12 -0600 Subject: Virtues Message-ID: I read an interesting article in Plains Anthropologist 47-181: Sundstrom, Linea. 2002. Steel Awls for Stone Age Plainswomen: Rock Art, Religion, and the Hide Trade on the Northern Plains. pp. 99-119. This is an extensive study of the Double Woman (WiNyaN NuNpa) complex. This is a fascinating article that clarifies a number of things about traditional Dakotan (and adjacent) culture for me in ways that I think will help me better understand the Dorsey texts in particular. I think anyone interested in Plains folklore should probably read this. However, I noticed an interesting linguistic or at least lexical point. Sundstrom explains (p. 100) that "Women at powwows wear an awl case to show they are industrious, a strike-a-light bag to show their hospitality, and a knife case to show their generosity (St. Pierre and Long Soldier 1995:77)." This caught my attention because we had recently mentioned in passing that Omaha-Ponca was^us^e means both 'brave' and 'generous' (and Dakotan was^os^e means at least 'brave'). We'd also mentioned in passing the root *s^kaN (appearing throughout the family), which is connected with ideas of movement and activity. I remembered that this is the verb used in some exhortations to "be active" in Omaha-Ponca, and I thought this was probably the relevant root for 'industrious' in an Omaha-Ponca context. I turns out, though that wasi'sige is more common for 'active', and wase'kkaN is 'quick', and associated quality. S^kaN does occur, and u's^kaN (u' cf. Dakotan wo-) is 'business' in Dorsey. I've seen it in modern use to refer to an organized affair, like a handgame, described as u's^k(aN) u'daN 'a good affair'. The phrase used to translate this was "a doings." However, I couldn't think of a term for 'hospitality'. I couldn't find one in Swetland, either. Then I noticed I couldn't find it in Ingham or Buechel, either. My suspicion is that the term is there, but with a different gloss that hasn't occurred to me. I did find 'hospitable' in LaFlesche, who gives gi'-hi doN-he (ki'hi toNhe?). LaFlesche has almost a full column under doN-he 'following the requirements of [honorable] married life'. I don't know the corresponding term in Omaha-Ponca. I think gi'-hi must be a motion verb, perhaps the dative of hi 'to arrive there', i.e., 'to arrive for something; arrive to obtain/fetch something', but this relies on Omaha-Ponca models and the whole construction is obscure to me, As near as I can tell (using mainly Ingham), the Teton terms for the two virtues I can identify are generous: thawac^hiN ...was^te 'mind, disposition' + 'pleasant' (nice stative verb in wa-) generous: c^haNte' ...yukhAN 'heart' + 'to be' (inflected as stative) generous: ox?aN..phi 'to do, to work' + 'good' (stative) generous, good-natured: c^haNl..yuhA 'heart' + 'have' (active) industrious: ...blihec^a (stative), ...blihec^aka (stative) industrious, skilful in making: wakax wo..hitika 'making' + 'furiously, energetically' (stative) industrious: napis^taN(ka) 'an industrious person' I suspect these are not simply synonyms, but without a variety of examples it would be difficult for a linguist to distinguish the shades of meaning. I noticed that Swetland gives for 'generous' in Omaha: noNde udoN 'heart' + 'be good' (dative) which I've encountered widely as 'be glad, be pleased', e.g., noNde iN'udoN 'I am glad, lit. my heart is good or more lit. heart is good for me'. He also gives ushkoN udoN 'generous person' (elucidated as 'you did well') which is just the term I gave above for a 'good doings'. The dsame observations would apply as in the Dakotan case. It would be difficult for a linguist to determine the shades of meaning involved here without a body of examples. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Jun 23 05:36:02 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 23:36:02 -0600 Subject: dhaN 'past' in OP Message-ID: I've been looking at =dhaN glossed "past" or "in the past" in the Dorsey texts. I'd say that it can be glossed something like "used to," though this is not really in the glosses Dorsey offers. He always says "in the past" or just "(past)." So far I've noticed about three contetxs, though there are probably more. 1) Applied to a main verb, where "used to" or "it used to be that" seems to work best. "... e'=di dha'=zhi=a he," ehe' dhaN', s^aN' s^i' e'gaN, ... there dont't go DEC I said PAST yet you arrived there having Don't go there, I [used to] say, and just as soon as you got there ... 1890:17.9 "Ppahe'=wadhahuni ujna'= khe= dhaN t?e'=adhe," a'=bi= ama Hill he eats them you told it CONT PAST I killed him he said QUOT I have killed (the) Devouring Hill that you [used to] tell of," he said. 1890:28.17 "Mm! S^e' c^?e'=dhe u'daN=akh=ama=dhaN. Mm! It [used to] be a good thing [difficult?] to kill that [kind]. E=a'c^haN=xc^i c^?e'=wadhadhe=c^c^e=iNthe," a'=bi=ama how very you kill them IRR PERHAPS she said However does one kill them?" she said 1890:28.17-18 2) applied to a noun, where the idea is something like "which formerly" or "the former." "NaN'ppa=hi= ge= dhaN wiN iN'dhiNgi=ga," a=bi=ama chokecherry bush the PAST one come back with one for me he said "Get me one of the chokecherry bushes about [like you used to]," he said. Preceding sentence: walk to seek medicine for me 1890:36.15 WakkaN'dagi= khe=dhaN wi' t?e'=adhe," a'=bi=ama water monster the PAST I I killed him he said "It's I who killed the water monster [that there used to be]," he said 1890:112:20 3) With a subordinate verb, producing with a sense like "when formerly," or "it used to be that." "Ni'as^iNga=ama e'=di hi'= hnaN=dhaN=di, Person the there he arrived only PAST LOC w[a]a'dhahuni=hnaN=i he,?" a'=bi=ama. he ate them only DEC she said "[It used to be that] if a person just showed up he'd just eat them," she said. Note that in this last sentence Dorsey glosses =hnaN (modern =naN) as 'only' and elaborates by explaining 'only arrived' as 'arrived (as a rule)'. English 'just' seems a good rendition. 1890:32.3-4 JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Jun 23 20:30:59 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 14:30:59 -0600 Subject: dhaN 'past' in OP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Jun 2002, Koontz John E wrote: > I've been looking at =dhaN glossed "past" or "in the past" in the Dorsey > texts. I'd say that it can be glossed something like "used to," though > this is not really in the glosses Dorsey offers. He always says "in the > past" or just "(past)." I should point out that if I'm right about "used to" as a working gloss, that this is a sort of past durative or imperfect. If the gloss is actually something more liek "once" then it would be an aorist or preterite (or perfective). > "... e'=di dha'=zhi=a he," ehe' dhaN', s^aN' s^i' e'gaN, ... > there dont't go DEC I said PAST yet you arrived there having > > Don't go there, I [used to] say, and just as soon as you got there > ... > > 1890:17.9 > > "Ppahe'=wadhahuni ujna'= khe= dhaN t?e'=adhe," a'=bi= ama > Hill he eats them you told it CONT PAST I killed him he said QUOT > > I have killed (the) Devouring Hill that you [used to] tell of," he said. > > 1890:28.17 On reflection, I have realized that khe (a positional auxiliary or article) here is not a continuative. That is, even if Ppahe'=wadhahuni or 'Devouring Hill' governs the khe 'the (lying)' form of the article, it is not the subject here, and so khe isn't a continuative marker. The alternative (and more normal with inanimate articles) is an evidential marker. though this seems a strange context for one. If khe is evidential, then this example shows khe and dhaN cooccurring, which would argue that dhaN cannot be seen as an evidential itself. Unfortunately, what I really have here is a deceptively simple sentence that I don't understand the syntax of. > "Ni'as^iNga=ama e'=di hi'= hnaN=dhaN=di, > Person the there he arrived only PAST LOC > > Note that in this last sentence Dorsey glosses =hnaN (modern =naN) as > 'only' and elaborates by explaining 'only arrived' as 'arrived (as a > rule)'. English 'just' seems a good rendition. > > 1890:32.3-4 Note also that here we have s^naN ~ hnaN ~ naN cooccurring with dhaN, showing that they are different. JEK From rankin at ku.edu Sun Jun 23 20:49:04 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 15:49:04 -0500 Subject: dhaN 'past' in OP Message-ID: > I should point out that if I'm right about "used to" as a working gloss, > that this is a sort of past durative or imperfect. If the gloss is > actually something more liek "once" then it would be an aorist or > preterite (or perfective). I had to come up with an analysis for the Quapaw cognate for the Quapaw sketch I did for the Hardy and Scancarelli volume that will appear someday. This was in about 1994 or 5. I think I decided, based on the autobiography of Alphonsus Valliere I used as a sample of the language, that it should be labeled 'imperfect'. Based on John's examples, I think most of the Dhegiha uses of it sort of fit that mold. Outside of DH I simply have no idea though. We know it forms part of Dakota k-?uN 'this completed...' and the Omaha cognate/analog (e)gaN. Beyond that I don't know. Bob > > > "... e'=di dha'=zhi=a he," ehe' dhaN', s^aN' s^i' e'gaN, ... > > there dont't go DEC I said PAST yet you arrived there having > > > > Don't go there, I [used to] say, and just as soon as you got there > > ... > > > > 1890:17.9 > > > > "Ppahe'=wadhahuni ujna'= khe= dhaN t?e'=adhe," a'=bi= ama > > Hill he eats them you told it CONT PAST I killed him he said QUOT > > > > I have killed (the) Devouring Hill that you [used to] tell of," he said. > > > > 1890:28.17 > > On reflection, I have realized that khe (a positional auxiliary or > article) here is not a continuative. That is, even if Ppahe'=wadhahuni > or 'Devouring Hill' governs the khe 'the (lying)' form of the article, it > is not the subject here, and so khe isn't a continuative marker. The > alternative (and more normal with inanimate articles) is an evidential > marker. though this seems a strange context for one. If khe is > evidential, then this example shows khe and dhaN cooccurring, which would > argue that dhaN cannot be seen as an evidential itself. > > Unfortunately, what I really have here is a deceptively simple sentence > that I don't understand the syntax of. > > > "Ni'as^iNga=ama e'=di hi'= hnaN=dhaN=di, > > Person the there he arrived only PAST LOC > > > > Note that in this last sentence Dorsey glosses =hnaN (modern =naN) as > > 'only' and elaborates by explaining 'only arrived' as 'arrived (as a > > rule)'. English 'just' seems a good rendition. > > > > 1890:32.3-4 > > Note also that here we have s^naN ~ hnaN ~ naN cooccurring with dhaN, > showing that they are different. > > JEK > From rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu Mon Jun 24 19:11:49 2002 From: rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu (rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:11:49 -0500 Subject: dhaN 'past' in OP Message-ID: John wrote: > I've been looking at =dhaN glossed "past" or "in the past" in the Dorsey > texts. I'd say that it can be glossed something like "used to," though > this is not really in the glosses Dorsey offers. He always says "in the > past" or just "(past)." We had a discussion some months ago about OP =the. I felt that this particle represented action accomplished, and could be used as the "had" particle in English, as in "They had gone." (What is that-- the pluperfect??) John and Bob considered it to be the "evidential" particle, and I got put in my place when the speakers agreed with them. Later, I think John pointed out that "action accomplished" type constructions often evolved into evidentials. Anyway, my feeling for the Dorsey texts is that =the does not work well there as an evidential, but that it does work in parallel contrast with =dhaN in both spatial and temporal dimensions. =the refers to a precise spot as a location, or to a specific point or accomplished action in time, while =dhaN refers to a general area in space or to a general period in time. If =dhaN references a period of time in a sentence stating a reality, "past" would seem to be implied. OP =hnaN can be glossed as "just" or "only" when it modifies a noun, but when it comes after a verb it seems to mean that the action is ongoing or especially repetitive. I think the intent is to place the listener's focus right in the middle of it. I'd parse John's =dhaN sentences as follows: >"... e'=di dha'=zhi=a he," ehe' dhaN', s^aN' s^i' e'gaN, ... > there dont't go DEC I said PAST yet you arrived there having > > Don't go there, I [used to] say, and just as soon as you got there ... Or: "there don't=go EMPH" I=said during=that=period=of=time=preceding= your=disobedience, yet you=went=there that=having=taken=place, ... Don't go there, I had told you [over a period of time], yet you went! that=having=happened, ... > "NaN'ppa=hi= ge= dhaN wiN iN'dhiNgi=ga," a=bi=ama > chokecherry bush the PAST one come back with one for me he said > > "Get me one of the chokecherry bushes about [like you used to]," he said. > > Preceding sentence: walk to seek medicine for me Could this be: "chokecherry=bushes the=scattered in=that=area one bring=me" he=reputedly=said "Bring me one of the bushes from the chokecherry patch." By this interpretation, =dhaN would refer to an area, rather than a period of time. > WakkaN'dagi= khe=dhaN wi' t?e'=adhe," a'=bi=ama > water monster the PAST I I killed him he said > > "It's I who killed the water monster [that there used to be]," he said Or: water=monster the=longitudinal in=the=[past]=period=of=time=that=you= know=about I=myself I=killed=him. It's I who killed the water monster that existed in that [past] period of time. > "Ppahe'=wadhahuni ujna'= khe= dhaN t?e'=adhe," a'=bi= ama > Hill he eats them you told it CONT PAST I killed him he said QUOT > > I have killed (the) Devouring Hill that you [used to] tell of," he said. Or: Devouring=Hill you=told=about=it the=lying in=the=[past]=period=of=time= that=you=know=about I=killed=him I killed the Devouring Hill you told about that existed in that [past] period of time. I think this is actually the same as the one above it, but with a subordinate clause between the noun and the =khe. > "Ni'as^iNga=ama e'=di hi'= hnaN=dhaN=di, > Person the there he arrived only PAST LOC > > w[a]a'dhahuni=hnaN=i he,?" a'=bi=ama. > he ate them only DEC she said > > "[It used to be that] if a person just showed up he'd just eat them," she > said. Or: "Person the=multiple there arrive REPETITIVE PAST=PERIOD LOC, he=ate=them REPETITIVE DEC EMPH" she=reputedly=said. "Whenever people would go there, he would eat them." > Unfortunately, what I really have here is a deceptively simple sentence > that I don't understand the syntax of. > Note also that here we have s^naN ~ hnaN ~ naN cooccurring with dhaN, > showing that they are different. I'm pretty sure that the hnaN=dhaN=di here is equivalent to our word "whenever" in referring to a past condition, and if we accept that, the rest of the syntax falls into place. The fact that =hnaN and =dhaN cooccur doesn't actually prove that they are different in meaning: sometimes one might use two equivalent terms to produce a third term with a specialized emphatic sense. However, I agree that they are different here. =dhaN indicates the past period of time, and =hnaN implies that the action is repetitive. In fact, I would group them separately: (Ni'as^iNga=ama) (e'=di (hi'=hnaN)) (dhaN=di), (The=people) (there (would=arrive)) (in=that=period), Or: (The=people) (there (would=arrive)) (when), > "Mm! S^e' c^?e'=dhe u'daN=akh=ama=dhaN. > > Mm! It [used to] be a good thing [difficult?] to kill that [kind]. This one throws me. I'm not sure how to understand the =akh=ama here, which I would normally read as "this is the one (subject), they say." Suggestions? Rory From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Tue Jun 25 17:23:57 2002 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 18:23:57 +0100 Subject: Virtues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In the connection of virtues the wors wauNs^ilapi or wowauns^ila which in biblical contexts comes to mean 'mercifulness', 'mercy' is probabbly just general 'kindness' and seems to be one virtue often referred to or the absence of it. It may in a nomadic society imply quite often 'hospitality' I suppose. On 22 Jun 2002, at 17:51, Koontz John E wrote: > > However, I couldn't think of a term for 'hospitality'. I couldn't find > one in Swetland, either. Then I noticed I couldn't find it in Ingham or > Buechel, either. My suspicion is that the term is there, but with a > different gloss that hasn't occurred to me. > > I did find 'hospitable' in LaFlesche, who gives gi'-hi doN-he (ki'hi > toNhe?). LaFlesche has almost a full column under doN-he 'following the > requirements of [honorable] married life'. I don't know the corresponding > term in Omaha-Ponca. I think gi'-hi must be a motion verb, perhaps the > dative of hi 'to arrive there', i.e., 'to arrive for something; arrive to > obtain/fetch something', but this relies on Omaha-Ponca models and the > whole construction is obscure to me, > > As near as I can tell (using mainly Ingham), the Teton terms for the two > virtues I can identify are > > generous: thawac^hiN ...was^te 'mind, disposition' + 'pleasant' (nice > stative verb in wa-) > > generous: c^haNte' ...yukhAN 'heart' + 'to be' (inflected as stative) > > generous: ox?aN..phi 'to do, to work' + 'good' (stative) > > generous, good-natured: c^haNl..yuhA 'heart' + 'have' (active) > > industrious: ...blihec^a (stative), ...blihec^aka (stative) > > industrious, skilful in making: wakax wo..hitika 'making' + > 'furiously, energetically' (stative) > > industrious: napis^taN(ka) 'an industrious person' > > I suspect these are not simply synonyms, but without a variety of examples > it would be difficult for a linguist to distinguish the shades of meaning. > > I noticed that Swetland gives for 'generous' in Omaha: > > noNde udoN 'heart' + 'be good' (dative) > > which I've encountered widely as 'be glad, be pleased', e.g., noNde > iN'udoN 'I am glad, lit. my heart is good or more lit. heart is good for > me'. He also gives > > ushkoN udoN 'generous person' (elucidated as 'you did well') > > which is just the term I gave above for a 'good doings'. The dsame > observations would apply as in the Dakotan case. It would be difficult > for a linguist to determine the shades of meaning involved here without a > body of examples. > > JEK > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Jun 26 04:00:00 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 22:00:00 -0600 Subject: Pine and the List Message-ID: A little testing as the behest of Kathy Shea suggests that Unix-based users of Pine can interact better with Windows based recipients of the list by going to the main menu > setup > config and scrolling down to the bottom of the config options to set the character set to US-ASCII. I do not know if this really changes the font, or just causes Pine to generate mail headers that claim this is occurring. Without this folks at KU were seeing letters from myself (and they also mention Ardis) as a message from the system in the body of the letter and the letter itself as an attachment. The text in the attachment was difficult to read - none of the usual Windows attachments could handle it. It is not clear to me whether this problem arises when the reader is Outlook or Outlook Express, or when the site mail hander is the Microsoft product (in some versions). The discussion of this at www.google.com was rather confusing. Anyway, if you use Pine, please consider making this change. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Jun 27 05:38:00 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 23:38:00 -0600 Subject: Virtues In-Reply-To: <3D18B53D.10080.185A4E6@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 bi1 at soas.ac.uk wrote: > In the connection of virtues the wors wauNs^ilapi or wowauns^ila > which in biblical contexts comes to mean 'mercifulness', 'mercy' is > probabbly just general 'kindness' and seems to be one virtue often > referred to or the absence of it. It may in a nomadic society imply > quite often 'hospitality' I suppose. Thanks, Bruce! This seems like a plausible suggesion. With that hint, I recall that the Omaha-Ponca texts refer the feeding of strangers or enemies frequently as a sign that they were treated well and no killed. A variety of terms are used: niN'tta gigaNdha 'to desire someone to live' iu'gdhaN=khidhe 'to cause to put (food) in the mouth' dhathe=khidhe 'to cause to eat' In one story certain Pawnees tell others not kill a visitor because 'he has finished eating, finished drinking, finished smoking'. In at least some of the stories, it is specifically the role of the woman of the house to feed the guest or petitioner in situations like this. 'To be merciful; to pity' is dha?e=...dhe (a causative). JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Jun 27 17:27:54 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:27:54 -0600 Subject: Virtues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A little editing of my composition: > Thanks, Bruce! This seems like a plausible suggesion. With that > hint, I recall that the Omaha-Ponca texts refer the feeding of > strangers or enemies frequently[,] as a sign that they were [to be] > treated well and no[t] killed. A variety of terms are used: ... > 'To be merciful; to pity' is dha?e=...dhe (a causative). I looked for a cognate in Dakotan, and found only yak?e 'wolf', which matches dha?e in form, but not very well in meaning. I believe that cognates of *rak?e=...re are widespread in Dhegiha. I supposed it might be *rax?e=...re - I'd have to check the Quapaw form. The rest merge *x? and *k? as k?, which becomes ? in OP. . JEK From jggoodtracks at juno.com Thu Jun 27 17:40:53 2002 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:40:53 -0500 Subject: Virtues Message-ID: Among Ioway-Otoe traditional culture, any enemy (ukihje) who made it into the village and entered the home of an IOM was considered to have safe refuge, and was fed & offered hospitality. In the same manner, any aggrieved IOM charged with offening another, could seek refuge & sanctity of the Sacred Pipe, asking that it be offered to the threatening distressed person(s), whom would be obligated to accept it. As such, early day explorers & traders used/ displayed a Sacred Pipe to various unknown tribes, to secure safe passage. In a family way, a child who makes it to the safe refuge of the grandparent, would not be further hassled by the parent. nat^udan = to pity (heart depressed towards) Nat^u'hinradan = You pity me. Nat^u'hindan?ye = I am pitied (Literally: "they pity me"). Nat^u'rigradan = I pity you, my own one. Nat^u'kikidanwi = They (dual) pity one another. On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 23:38:00 -0600 (MDT) Koontz John E writes: > On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 bi1 at soas.ac.uk wrote: > > > In the connection of virtues the wors wauNs^ilapi or wowauns^ila > > which in biblical contexts comes to mean 'mercifulness', 'mercy' > is > > probabbly just general 'kindness' and seems to be one virtue often > > referred to or the absence of it. It may in a nomadic society > imply > > quite often 'hospitality' I suppose. > > Thanks, Bruce! This seems like a plausible suggesion. With that > hint, I > recall that the Omaha-Ponca texts refer the feeding of strangers or > enemies frequently as a sign that they were treated well and no > killed. > A variety of terms are used: > > niN'tta gigaNdha 'to desire someone to live' > iu'gdhaN=khidhe 'to cause to put (food) in the mouth' > dhathe=khidhe 'to cause to eat' > > In one story certain Pawnees tell others not kill a visitor because > 'he > has finished eating, finished drinking, finished smoking'. > > In at least some of the stories, it is specifically the role of the > woman > of the house to feed the guest or petitioner in situations like > this. > > 'To be merciful; to pity' is dha?e=...dhe (a causative). > > JEK > From rankin at ku.edu Thu Jun 27 21:10:00 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 16:10:00 -0500 Subject: ?uN as AUX V. Message-ID: Apropos our recent discussion of the meaning(s)/use(s) of reflexes of Proto-Siouan ?uN 'do, be' as some sort of past (perfective or imperfective) and probably-aspectual auxiliary, I was just going over an old paper of mine on Biloxi aspiration and ran across this obvious entry in Dorsey and Swanton's 1912 Biloxi dictionary: uNni 'sign of continuous action' (?) with various examples (p. 284, and the ? is Dorsey's). This pretty much confirms Catherine's and John's notion that this aux. functions as an imperfective marker. Thus far I have no feeling for when you would use reflexes of *?uN and when you might use positionals, but presumably the distinction is that one that exists between 'continuative aspect' and 'imperfective aspect'. Bob From Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com Fri Jun 28 17:31:46 2002 From: Anthony.Grant3 at btinternet.com (Anthony Grant) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 18:31:46 +0100 Subject: ?uN as AUX V. Message-ID: Dear Bob: Interestingly enough, forms of both 'do' and 'be' are used in English-lexifier creoles and/or AAVE to express habitual aspect. Guyanese has /doz/, for instance, and AAVE's use of 'be' is well-known through William Labov's work. Best Anthony ----- Original Message ----- From: R. Rankin To: Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 10:10 PM Subject: Re: ?uN as AUX V. > Apropos our recent discussion of the meaning(s)/use(s) > of reflexes of Proto-Siouan ?uN 'do, be' as some sort > of past (perfective or imperfective) and > probably-aspectual auxiliary, I was just going over an > old paper of mine on Biloxi aspiration and ran across > this obvious entry in Dorsey and Swanton's 1912 Biloxi > dictionary: > > uNni 'sign of continuous action' (?) with various > examples (p. 284, and the ? is Dorsey's). This pretty > much confirms Catherine's and John's notion that this > aux. functions as an imperfective marker. Thus far I > have no feeling for when you would use reflexes of *?uN > and when you might use positionals, but presumably the > distinction is that one that exists between > 'continuative aspect' and 'imperfective aspect'. > > Bob > From rankin at ku.edu Fri Jun 28 18:22:06 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 13:22:06 -0500 Subject: Siouan ?uN and AAVE 'be' Message-ID: Two language families! I guess that makes it official "UG". 8-} Bob From shanwest at uvic.ca Fri Jun 28 18:38:29 2002 From: shanwest at uvic.ca (Shannon West) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 11:38:29 -0700 Subject: Siouan ?uN and AAVE 'be' In-Reply-To: <001101c21ed0$b6afca80$d1b5ed81@oemcomputer> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of R. Rankin > Sent: June 28, 2002 11:22 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Siouan ?uN and AAVE 'be' > > > Two language families! I guess that makes it official > "UG". 8-} Thanks Noa... uhh... Bob. :) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Jun 30 18:17:55 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 12:17:55 -0600 Subject: dhaN 'past' in OP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Jun 2002 rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu wrote: > Anyway, my feeling for the Dorsey texts is that =the does not work > well there as an evidential, but that it does work in parallel > contrast with =dhaN in both spatial and temporal dimensions. > =the refers to a precise spot as a location, or to a specific point > or accomplished action in time, while =dhaN refers to a general > area in space or to a general period in time. If =dhaN references > a period of time in a sentence stating a reality, "past" would seem > to be implied. I seem to recall some discussion of this the : dhaN temporal contrast by Dorsey - maybe in the notes and parenthetical comments in the texts? I'm wondering if it applies only in 'when' clauses or temporal adverbs constructed from demonstratives, articles, and "post positions." If so, I'd take it as applying with the use of the et al. as evidentials, and perhaps separate from the additional (separate) use of dhaN as a past marker. > OP =hnaN can be glossed as "just" or "only" when it modifies a noun, > but when it comes after a verb it seems to mean that the action is > ongoing or especially repetitive. I think the intent is to place > the listener's focus right in the middle of it. I agree that the marker is all of these things. I think the progression of ideas is 'just, only' => 'nothing but, exclusively' => something like a habitual. As I recall, the just glosses appear with s^naN and verbs, too, in Dorsey. > > "NaN'ppa=hi= ge= dhaN wiN iN'dhiNgi=ga," a=bi=ama > > chokecherry bush the PAST one come back with one for me he said > > > > "Get me one of the chokecherry bushes about [like you used to]," he said. > > > > Preceding sentence: walk to seek medicine for me > > Could this be: > "chokecherry=bushes the=scattered in=that=area one bring=me" > he=reputedly=said > > "Bring me one of the bushes from the chokecherry patch." > > By this interpretation, =dhaN would refer to an area, rather than a > period of time. The "about" in my rendition represented a nod to the 'scattered' sense of ge 'the scattered'. I went with Dorsey's 'past' gloss for dhaN, because series of articles are unusual, and because there were parallels of this use of a past marker with nouns. I just happened to pick this one as the example. [I know it must seem sometimes like I don't edit, but I really do - some.] > > WakkaN'dagi= khe=dhaN wi' t?e'=adhe," a'=bi=ama > > water monster the PAST I I killed him he said > > > > "It's I who killed the water monster [that there used to be]," he said > > Or: > water=monster the=longitudinal in=the=[past]=period=of=time=that=you= > know=about > I=myself I=killed=him. > > It's I who killed the water monster that existed in that [past] > period of time. By this logic we should find khe=the (or some article + the) as well as article + dhaN, so this should be easy enough to test. > > "Ppahe'=wadhahuni ujna'= khe= dhaN t?e'=adhe," a'=bi= ama > > Hill he eats them you told it CONT PAST I killed him he said QUOT > > > > I have killed (the) Devouring Hill that you [used to] tell of," he said. > > Or: > Devouring=Hill you=told=about=it the=lying in=the=[past]=period=of=time= > that=you=know=about > I=killed=him > > I killed the Devouring Hill you told about that existed in that [past] > period of time. > > I think this is actually the same as the one above it, but with a > subordinate clause between the noun and the =khe. That's kind of an unusual pattern of embedding. > > "Mm! S^e' c^?e'=dhe u'daN=akh=ama=dhaN. > > > > Mm! It [used to] be a good thing [difficult?] to kill that [kind]. > > This one throws me. I'm not sure how to understand the =akh=ama here, > which I would normally read as "this is the one (subject), they say." > Suggestions? I think that I mistranslated - the akh(a)=ama is under the dhaN, so it would have to be something like 'they used to say it was' not '(they say) it used to be'. I suppose udaN=akh(a) would have to be 'the good one', too, not, 'a good thing', so maybe it's more like: Mm! that (kind) : to kill : the good one : they used to say (it was) a killer? (one was?) Or 'they used to say (one was) a good one to kill that (kind)' The sense is about the same, but details count in grammar. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Jun 30 18:36:30 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 12:36:30 -0600 Subject: ?uN as AUX V. In-Reply-To: <000501c21e1f$00f0dd80$c0b5ed81@oemcomputer> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, R. Rankin wrote: > This pretty much confirms Catherine's and John's notion that this aux. > functions as an imperfective marker. Thus far I have no feeling for > when you would use reflexes of *?uN and when you might use > positionals, but presumably the distinction is that one that exists > between 'continuative aspect' and 'imperfective aspect'. This Biloxi case and the Quapaw one do seem to confirm the imperfective reading. Of course, we wouldn't necessarily find that languages as diverse as Biloxi and Dhegiha would have exactly the same uses of the markers. In Dhegiha the continuative pattern of use with the articles must be more recent, and may have preempted a lot of the sphere of *?uN. The pieces of it that are left in OP seem somewhat specialized and fragmentary. Only dhaN seems at all productive. The use of aN with the with =xti and with =s^naN looks somewhat fossilized, and with the negative and =s^te even more so. It occurs to me that =daN in temporal uses - I think it figures as 'when' in Osage, though not in OP - might be *=d(u") LOCATIVE + *aN IMPERF-AUX. There are some cases of daN in OP that read like 'during': haN=daN 'during (the) night' 1890:17.20 egasaNi=daN 'during (the) next day' 1890:370.5 me'=daN 'during (the) spring' 1890:393.7 Otherwise the gloss 'during' applies to dhedhu(adi) (with clauses) and a particle de. This is sort of icing on the cake - it's nice to know where things may come from, even little particles - but not necessary to the pursuit of *?uN as a part marker. If I've missed a widespread particle *taN 'during', let me know! From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Jun 30 18:37:52 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 12:37:52 -0600 Subject: ?uN as AUX V. (fwd) Message-ID: Ambushed by a 'reply to' anomaly. This was intended for the list. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 13:54:44 -0600 (MDT) From: Koontz John E To: Anthony Grant Subject: Re: ?uN as AUX V. On Fri, 28 Jun 2002, Anthony Grant wrote: > Interestingly enough, forms of both 'do' and 'be' are used in > English-lexifier creoles and/or AAVE to express habitual aspect. Guyanese > has /doz/, for instance, and AAVE's use of 'be' is well-known through > William Labov's work. I believe this is the usual explanation for the Latin -b- imperfects (and futures), too. JEK