From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Mar 1 16:23:52 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:23:52 -0700 Subject: A Mysterious Morpheme *hi(N) Message-ID: Last night while trying to provide a good explanation of why Winnebago kaNnaNk' 'to marry' would be more likely to be underlyingly |kraNk| than |knak|, I noticed that Winnebago 'husband' is hikaNnaN'. My initial impression was that hi was just the usual Winnebago reflex of Px3 *i 'his/her' (probably 'her' here!). But I also noticed that Ioway-Otoe has hiNgra ~ igraN and that Teton has higna. So it looks like the initial morpheme here is *hi(N). HuN? From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Mar 1 16:29:06 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:29:06 -0700 Subject: *-ka Message-ID: While I'm on the subject of marriage, while husband is usually a reflex of *hi(N)kraN, 'to marry (of a man)' is usually *kraN-ka, cf. Winnebago kaNkaNk, Ioway-Otoe graNge, Omaha-Ponca egdhaNge 'husband' and Teton hignaka (apparently also 'husband'). So these forms offer a fairly widespread example of X :: X-ka. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Mar 1 16:34:07 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:34:07 -0700 Subject: Winnebago -ga in Kinterms Message-ID: I've noticed before that certain Winnebago nouns take an appended -ga. For example, was^c^iNiNk' 'rabbit', but was^c^iNge'ga 'the Rabbit'. (I think I've remembered the actual noun correctly.) Notice that the final -e lost historically resurfaces in this form. It seems to me that the noun for '(agency) store-keeper' also has such a -ga. A number of kin terms also take -ga in various contexts. I was wondering if this might not account for deega 'uncle' vs. Teton lek(s^i) or Omaha-Ponca negi. That is, deega is deek + ga? From napsha51 at aol.com Fri Mar 1 22:23:10 2002 From: napsha51 at aol.com (napsha51 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 17:23:10 EST Subject: A Mysterious Morpheme *hi(N) Message-ID: John, In Lakxota we say, hingnaku, hingnatxun, Violet From napsha51 at aol.com Fri Mar 1 22:25:45 2002 From: napsha51 at aol.com (napsha51 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 17:25:45 EST Subject: Winnebago -ga in Kinterms Message-ID: John, My Hochunk teacher, Zena Reeves taught me to say, washcinga for rabbit, It is one of the languages I teach here. Violet From rlundy at huntel.net Sat Mar 2 16:18:53 2002 From: rlundy at huntel.net (rlundy at huntel.net) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 10:18:53 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: ---- Original Message ---- From: napsha51 at aol.com To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu, Subject: Re: Winnebago -ga in Kinterms Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 17:25:45 EST >John, >My Hochunk teacher, Zena Reeves taught me to say, washcinga for >rabbit, >It is one of the languages I teach here. >Violet >Violet, My name is Richard Lundy. I'm a regular reader and an occassional contributor to this conversation. You appear to be a Lakhota and a speaker. Where do you teach, etc. I'm a tribal college instructor at NICC in Macy and Santee and come from CRST. Please let me know who you are and where you come from. Thank you. Richard, rlundy at huntel.net New WebMail from HunTel.net From napsha51 at aol.com Sat Mar 2 16:42:18 2002 From: napsha51 at aol.com (napsha51 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 11:42:18 EST Subject: No subject Message-ID: Yes, I will be happy to do this, I am Violet Catches, a Lakxota woman, I teach at the Pierre Indian Learning Center, in Pierre SD, I came to your college as a guest to one of Zeena's classes. She was our contact person for Hocak, as you spell it there, I use my preference, Hochunk, which is how we say it. And I teach Omaha. All of these are concepts, like colors, time, numbers, money. Well, after I wrote in the soiuan lists, i was thinking about the words, i have to go back and look because i think, there is a t somewhere, I have it written down. Her assistant use to write to me, but I haven't heard from her after she wrote telling me of Zeena's passing. She was usually there, helping, and she recorded the numbers for me, I wonder why I cannot think of her name! I am 52, so forgetful. I will think of her name as soon as I send you this e mail. Violet From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Mar 3 00:17:32 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 17:17:32 -0700 Subject: Winnebago -ga in Kinterms In-Reply-To: <134.a356667.29b159e9@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Mar 2002 Violet (napsha51 at aol.com) wrote: > My Hochunk teacher, Zena Reeves taught me to say, washcinga for > rabbit, It is one of the languages I teach here. Greetings, Violet! That's an interesting variation in the form. My reference was the form as given in Ken Miner's Winnebago Field Lexicon. He lists was^c^iNk' 'rabbit' (I think I put in a spurious long vowel before), also was^c^iNgra' 'Wisconsin Rapids (mispronounced as "rabbits")' (literally, 'the rabbit(s)'), was^c^iNkxe'te 'jackrabbit' (literally, 'big rabbit'), and was^c^iNge'ga 'Hare'. Since this last is capitalized, I assume it's a reference to the character called 'the Rabbit' in Omaha folktales. Given the variation you were taught, I've gone back and also checked Marino's dissertation A Dictionary of Winnebago: an analysis and reference grammar of the Radin Lexical File. It gives wacdjiNk 'hare', and wacdjiNge 'hare', and also wacdjiNk puntc 'wintergreen (hare's nose)'. The cdj is just Radin's version of s^c^ (or shc). It would be very interesting to know if Zeena Reeves had any other nouns with -ka, corresponding to other cases of -k or otherwise! Given the Radin citation was^c^iNge, I wonder if it has had -ga removed by analysis (a tendency in Radin's materials, I think), or if it's based on an occurrence of wacdjiNge in isolation. If it does occur in isolation, then we'd have attestations of was^c^iNk ~ was^c^iNge ~ was^c^iNga. The form for 'storekeeper' (glossed 'merchant') in Miner is wooru'wiNga'. Compare 'store', which is wooru'wiNc^i'. The basic stem here is ruwiN' 'to buy' (like Omaha-Ponca dhiwiN'). There's also waaru'wiNga' 'Trader (name used for whoever was the trader at the time)'. Lipkind's discussion of possession with kinterms (p. 31) says that all kinterms with the prefix hi (fossilizd Px3 *i-) have first person posssesives in following hara, and the few terms without it take ga for the first person. His examples are naNniN'=ga 'my mother', c^uwiN'=ga 'my father's sister', but hisuNk'=hara 'my younger brother', hinuN'=hara 'my elder sister', hiaN'jiN=hiwi'ra 'our (inclusive) father'. I've spelled these in something like modern standard linguist's spelling, but I haven't tried to fix vowel length. Apart from the first persons, it appears that the second persons are always raga singular, and rawi'ga plural, and there is a variation of hira with ra in the third person. The first part of hara, haga, hira, etc., is the inflected causative. Winnebago generalizes the causative possessive construction with kin terms. Possession of living forms also uses the causative, but with niN 'living' inserted, e.g, s^uNg(a)=niN=ha'ra 'my dog'. The parenthesized (a) is a schwa in the original, and I'm not sure it isn't actually just a non-vocalic transition between s^uNuNk 'dog' and niN. The second person of this paradigm is niN=r~a'ra ~ niN=r~a'ga singular and niN=r~awira ~ niN=r~a(w)iga plural. The conditioning for ra vs. ga in these cases is not given, and no examples with ga are given. It appears, though, that -ra is OK with 'duck', as in wiNg(a)=niN=r~awira 'you(r) (all's) duck'. The r~ here is the n' (Lipkind) or n^ (Miner) that represents the nasalized r (almost n) that occurs for r after a nasal vowel. To get the paradigm for 'uncle' (actually, of course, 'mother's brother') I had to go to Lesser's dissertaiton, which gives: hidek'hara 'my uncle', hidek'raga 'your uncle', hidek'ra 'his uncle' These forms were taken from Frank Beaver at Winnebago City (= Winnebago), NE, in 1928, and match Radin's forms (which I haven't seen). Beaver also offered dega'ga 'my uncle', with a vocative dega'. JEK From jggoodtracks at juno.com Sat Mar 2 23:08:03 2002 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 17:08:03 -0600 Subject: Winnebago -ga in Kinterms Message-ID: I've noticed that in all, if not most of the W. Clan names, they end in -ga. I've wondered about it. JGT On Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:34:07 -0700 (MST) Koontz John E writes: > I've noticed before that certain Winnebago nouns take an appended > -ga. > For example, was^c^iNiNk' 'rabbit', but was^c^iNge'ga 'the Rabbit'. > (I > think I've remembered the actual noun correctly.) Notice that the > final > -e lost historically resurfaces in this form. It seems to me that > the > noun for '(agency) store-keeper' also has such a -ga. > > A number of kin terms also take -ga in various contexts. I was > wondering > if this might not account for deega 'uncle' vs. Teton lek(s^i) or > Omaha-Ponca negi. That is, deega is deek + ga? > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Mar 3 07:13:19 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 00:13:19 -0700 Subject: A Mysterious Morpheme *hi(N) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > In Lakxota we say, hingnaku, hingnatxun, > Violet My source was Buechel, but I reproduced it from memory. Buechel has higna' 'a husband' (identified as n. obs in the English side - which may mean that he found it in Riggs, but couldn't get anyone he knew to accept it), with the possessed forms given as mihigna, nihigna, hignaka (a misprint for hugnaku, think). Higna'ku 'her husband' is also listed as a headword. Higna't[h]uN (actually listed with oN in the usual way for Buechel) (Violet's hingnatxun in her orthography) is given as 'to have a husband'. Riggs has hihna 'a husband', hihnaku 'her husband', and also hihnat[h]uN 'to have a husband, be married' (I suspect Violet was thinking of a definition in this form). He also lists higna (including hignaku) as Teton forms. Williams just givesn hihnaku. I'd swear I've seen the nasalized variant Violet cites somewhere, too, but I can't relocate it at the moment, which puzzles me, because I don't have that many possible references! However, since I've got Lesser out, I checked it, too, and he gives it, though I hadn't checked the form there the other night. In fact, he gives hiNgnaku (Teton), hiNknaku (Yankton), hiNknaNgu (Assiniboine), all nasalized, and only hihnaku (Santee), unnasalized. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Mar 3 07:48:01 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 00:48:01 -0700 Subject: Winnebago -ga in Kinterms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Mar 2002, Koontz John E wrote: > Lipkind's discussion of possession with kinterms (p. 31) says that all > kinterms with the prefix hi (fossilizd Px3 *i-) have first person > posssesives in following hara, and the few terms without it take ga for > the first person. ... I've also noticed in Lipkind, p. 50, "When referring to individuals by kinship term or to animal characters in tales, this suffix (-ga) is added as a mark of respect. It is never used in address." (Oops, it looks like this has been noticed in print before!) Ex. j^aj^i'=ga 'father', ku'nuN=ga 'proper name for eldest son' (cf. OP (iN)gdhaN), maNcos^u'c^ka 'Red-Grizzley-Bear' (a surname), kec^aN'gega 'turtle' (tale character). The last of these, 'big turtle' (= snapping turtle?) seems to be another case of -e- appearing before -ga, since this is keecaNk' in Miner. I've also looked at kinship terms further in Lesser, and it appears that it might be more accurate to say that when -ga is used with first persons hi- is omitted, not the same as it being used when the term lacks hi-. Specifically, all first persons are given with -(h)ara, including hiuni=hara 'my mother' and hic^uNwiN=hara 'my father's sister'. However, the stem na(N)ni(N) 'mother' is listed as the vocative, and na(N)ni(N)=ga is given as an alternaive to hiuni=raga for 'your mother'. C^uNwiN=ga is given as an alternative to hic^uNwiN=hara 'my mother'. Also, dodo=ka is given as the vocative of hic^ido=ra 'her elder brother'. It's not clear if we're dealing with regional and personal variation, regularization of an originally more irregular system, or a system somewhat more complex than the reporters realized, which is (or was?) perhaps being frozen in a somewhat irregular or variable form. JEK From napsha51 at aol.com Sun Mar 3 14:46:32 2002 From: napsha51 at aol.com (napsha51 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 09:46:32 EST Subject: Winnebago -ga in Kinterms Message-ID: John, Yes, you are right, it was washcink and washcinge, she taught me some other words for rabbit. I have to look in my notes for other nouns that have the ga or ge ending, but its really not my place to share that kind of info, as a Native American. There are Winnebago's and that is their right. Violet From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 4 19:34:07 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 12:34:07 -0700 Subject: A Mysterious Morpheme *hi(N) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Mar 2002, Koontz John E wrote: > ... with the possessed forms given as mihigna, nihigna, hignaka (a > misprint for hugnaku, think). .. Sorry, I meant hignaku! From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 4 19:54:50 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 12:54:50 -0700 Subject: Winnebago Nominal Ablaut (Re: Winnebago -ga in Kinterms) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Mar 2002, Koontz John E wrote: > The last of these, 'big turtle' (= snapping turtle?) seems to be another > case of -e- appearing before -ga, since this is keecaNk' in Miner. So, as far as I can see there are now two examples, perhaps fossilized, of 0 / elsewhere ~ e / __ ga with Winnebago nouns in -k, kec^aNk and was^c^iNk. It might work better syncronically to treat this as ga / elsewhere ~ ega / k __. It's a sort of left-handed nominal ablaut, in the sense that Dakotan nominal ablaut essentially involves a ~ e ~ 0, though with well-developed e ~ 0, a ~ 0, a ~ e, and a ~ e ~ 0 subcases. Also, while Dakotan has the 0-alternant in compounds and reduplication, Winnebago has it as the unmarked (uncompounded) form. The occurrence of -e- in these contexts is not at all surprising as Winnebago (by comparison with Ioway-Otoe) seems to lose final -e after C (but not CC), as in naNaNc^ge' 'heart'. In essence the =ga forms an environment in which this loss of e is prevented. For example, compare Omaha-Ponca mas^tiNge ~ mas^c^iNge (in many of the JOD texts) 'rabbit' and kke( )ttaNga 'big turtle'. The latter has -ga < *-ka), but it appears that in Winnebago (and Ioway-Otoe) *a > e after any velar obstruent. This is one reason I was interested in Winnebago deega' 'uncle'. The ga looked irregular. So, I was happy to be (probably) able to reduce it to the usual exception for =ga. JEK From Rgraczyk at aol.com Tue Mar 5 21:21:17 2002 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Randolph Graczyk) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 16:21:17 EST Subject: instrumental *daka- Message-ID: In his paper "A diachronic perspective on active/stative alignment in Siouan, Bob Rankin wrote: "Dakotan has innovated a great many statively-marked verbs with the ka- 'by striking' instrumental prefix (Xmelnitsky, Siouan e-list), but comparative evidence makes it highly unlikely that stative verbs in Proto-Siouan could take any instrumental prefix except *Ra 'by heat' (which is typically stative). Other instrumentals always seem to have the effect of raising the "activity" level of the verb, i.e., they make the verb active or transitive." (p. 13) Crow has a fairly extensive set of stative verbs with the dak- prefix, which is cognate with Dakotan ka-. The following is a sampling: dakka'hpi 'blown away by the wind', dakku'c^i 'swing, wave', daksaks^i' 'fit into', daks^i'pi 'slow (animate)', daku'xs^i 'quick, frisky, energetic' (Hi nako'xti 'light in weight'), dappi'axi 'light in weight', dappi'c^i' soaked', dappu's^i 'swollen', das^s^ipi' 'cave in, sink in, collapse', das^s^ua' 'bent, dented' (Hi naks^ua 'dent'), dac^c^eepi' 'penetrate, go inside the body', dac^c^ic^i' 'winded, exhausted', daxc^i' 'choke, gag' (Hi na'ks^i 'choke'). (Note that in Crow the k of the dak- prefix often assimilates to the following obstruent.) Boas and Deloria (p. 46-48) give lists of stative verbs with the ka- prefix, both those that occur only as statives, and another set that may be used as both actives and statives. B and D note that verbs with the ka- prefix often express action 'by the wind, current, or other natural forces'. Several of the Crow verbs have this type of meaning. Also, there is at least one Crow form that can occur both actively and statively: daxc^i' 'tie, tie up, imprison' (active); 'choke, gag' (stative). A derived form of this stem is a'ap-daxc^i 'hang (execute)' (active); 'hang by the neck' (stative). I suspect that there may be a few more that can be used both actively and statively, but I need to check. It seems unlikely to me that both Dakotan and Missouri River Siouan would have independently innovated in such similar ways. I would suggest that the stative usage of *daka- may go back to Proto-Siouan. It would be nice to have some corroboration from other branches of the family, but I don't know if there is any. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Mar 6 16:34:21 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 10:34:21 -0600 Subject: instrumental *daka- Message-ID: Thanks for the helpful comments and data. I'm still revising this paper and will probably do a version of it for the SSILA meeting next Jan. I must say I've always had a problem interpreting verb classes using the available Dakotan materials. The Buechel dictionary (1970) lists each verb as being v.a. (active) or v.n. (neutral). The problem is that I suspect B. was using a semantic rather than a purely morphological definition of "neutral", and not every entry has a first person example. It seems clear though that the *raka- verbs deserve more attention in this regard though. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Rgraczyk at aol.com [mailto:Rgraczyk at aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 3:21 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: instrumental *daka- In his paper "A diachronic perspective on active/stative alignment in Siouan, Bob Rankin wrote: "Dakotan has innovated a great many statively-marked verbs with the ka- 'by striking' instrumental prefix (Xmelnitsky, Siouan e-list), but comparative evidence makes it highly unlikely that stative verbs in Proto-Siouan could take any instrumental prefix except *Ra 'by heat' (which is typically stative). Other instrumentals always seem to have the effect of raising the "activity" level of the verb, i.e., they make the verb active or transitive." (p. 13) Crow has a fairly extensive set of stative verbs with the dak- prefix, which is cognate with Dakotan ka-. The following is a sampling: dakka'hpi 'blown away by the wind', dakku'c^i 'swing, wave', daksaks^i' 'fit into', daks^i'pi 'slow (animate)', daku'xs^i 'quick, frisky, energetic' (Hi nako'xti 'light in weight'), dappi'axi 'light in weight', dappi'c^i' soaked', dappu's^i 'swollen', das^s^ipi' 'cave in, sink in, collapse', das^s^ua' 'bent, dented' (Hi naks^ua 'dent'), dac^c^eepi' 'penetrate, go inside the body', dac^c^ic^i' 'winded, exhausted', daxc^i' 'choke, gag' (Hi na'ks^i 'choke'). (Note that in Crow the k of the dak- prefix often assimilates to the following obstruent.) Boas and Deloria (p. 46-48) give lists of stative verbs with the ka- prefix, both those that occur only as statives, and another set that may be used as both actives and statives. B and D note that verbs with the ka- prefix often express action 'by the wind, current, or other natural forces'. Several of the Crow verbs have this type of meaning. Also, there is at least one Crow form that can occur both actively and statively: daxc^i' 'tie, tie up, imprison' (active); 'choke, gag' (stative). A derived form of this stem is a'ap-daxc^i 'hang (execute)' (active); 'hang by the neck' (stative). I suspect that there may be a few more that can be used both actively and statively, but I need to check. It seems unlikely to me that both Dakotan and Missouri River Siouan would have independently innovated in such similar ways. I would suggest that the stative usage of *daka- may go back to Proto-Siouan. It would be nice to have some corroboration from other branches of the family, but I don't know if there is any. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sun Mar 17 19:01:42 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 13:01:42 -0600 Subject: Dhegihanists. Message-ID: I've been working thru the paper by Barron and Serzisko on Siouan positionals and Ponca article use. They cite two sentences from JOD 1890:466.7 and 467.3. Ki te-nuga ama waji-pibaji and buffalo bull the [moving] was savage And the buffalo bull was savage. Waji-pibaji te-nuga aka was savage Buffalo bull the [not in motion] The buffalo bull was savage. Is this your reading of the above sentences? Is buffalo bull singular or plural here? Is the article difference due to motion, number or something else? B&S did a good job of finding some interesting examples in Dorsey, but they don't always analyze them correctly and they confuse homophones [thaN] 'article' and 'postposition from' along with [the] 'article' and 'evidential' (and sometimes [tte] 'irrealis'). Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 18 05:51:56 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 22:51:56 -0700 Subject: Dhegihanists. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Mar 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I've been working thru the paper by Barron and Serzisko on Siouan > positionals and Ponca article use. They cite two sentences from JOD > 1890:466.7 and 467.3. > > Ki te-nuga ama waji-pibaji > and buffalo bull the [moving] was savage > And the buffalo bull was savage. > > Waji-pibaji te-nuga aka > was savage Buffalo bull the [not in motion] > The buffalo bull was savage. > > Is this your reading of the above sentences? Is buffalo bull singular or > plural here? Is the article difference due to motion, number or something > else? In what follows I raise more questions than I (don't actually) answer. Anyway, these are the glosses Dorsey gives, and I think nobody, B&S included, has gotten much beyond them. There's been a certain amount of uncertainty about them recently, of course. Superficially, this pair looks like a paradigm case of akha 'the motionless subject' vs. ama 'the moving/plural subject' (in the moving case). The text makes it clear that the context is that a man is pursuing a bull, which is acting agressive. [Frank LaFlesche is narrating the story, "My First Buffalo Hunt." His father has refused him permission to participate. He's angry at his father and the two of them are watching the progress of the hunt together from a hill. His father is talking to him, but he is silent and sulking.] E'gidhe tte-nu'ga wiN tti'= atta=dhishaN at length bull a tent(s) to tending * e'gidhe marks clauses that seem to have anticipatable content * dhishaN 'pulling' indicates approach adhiN' agi'=i nikkas^iNga akha wiNa'=xc^i akha. having it he was coming back man the one just the * adhiN 'to have' + motion verb is a transitivizing construction for motion verbs, indicating accompaniment or pursuit. * I hear wiNaxc^i as wiaNxti in modern Omaha. It appears that -a- here is a special case of the linking -a- that appears above in tti=atta= < tti + tta. Kki ttenu'ga *ama* waz^iN'=ppi=b=az^i. and then bull the mind was bad * I think Ardis told me that "Ki" is actually khi, not kki. I have been associating it with kki 'if, when'. * Notice the stress on ttenu'ga (like pteblo'ka), though I would expect *tte'nuga given the way compound stress usually works. I have no idea why this pattern occurs with tte-. Ni'kkas^iNga dhiNkhe ie'naghi=dha= hnaN=i man the (sitting, object) he attacked him regularly [At this point, Frank LaFlesche's father tells him he can go help. He grabs an apparently unexpectedly light gun and lassos an apparently unexpectedly tall horse and sets off.] Bdhi'ze gaN e'=di bdhe'. I took it (the gun) and so there I went * This is perhaps two sentences? GaN 'thus' is usually a sentence introducer, but can sometimes occur en lieu of egaN, perhaps this is bdhi'z e=gaN 'having taken it'? This gets into the sill unresolved issue of whether there are one or two egaN particles. E'=di phi'= kki=z^i, there I arrived when ttenu'ga *akha* s^kaN=az^i naz^iN *akha*. bull the not moving he stood PROGR * The bull is explicitly standing still. Notice the concordial use of akha in the progressive auxililary slot. * Notice the =z^i (apparently not NEG) on =kki 'if' in this context. Except I'm not sure what the context is! Kki ni'kkas^iNga akha e'=di phi' kki, And then man the there I arrived when gi'dhe=xti=aN=bi a=i. he was really happy he said Waz^iN'=ppi=b=az^i ttenu'ga *akha*. mind was bad bull the * The bull is still akha-marked. [At this point the hunter wounds the bull with an arrow. It charges them, Frank's horse throws him and heads home, and the bull runs off, to0. Frank arrives back at the tend to find his mother scolding his father. His father is laughing. He asks Frank if he killed the bull.] Notice that the bull is obviously moving when ama is applied to it, and explicitly standing still when akha is applied to it. But there are various problems. For one thing, the man chasing the bull is introduced with akha, though he is presumably moving, too. For that matter, why is a definite article applied to the man? This is the first mention of him, and Dorsey's texts translates ni'kkas^iNga akha wiNa=xc^i akha as 'one man'. We should probably guess that his identity is actually known, perhaps even to Dorsey, most likely to the LaFlesche family, within which the story had no doubt circulated for years. Frank hasn't bothered to identify him in the fragment, but he is 'the fellow we know' for all practical purposes because of the longer narrative or family background from which the story is abstracted. I suppose this sequence could also support an intepretation of akha as 'more intimate, better known, closer' and ama as 'less intimate, less well known, further off', a proposal (in my paraphrase) offered by Carolyn Quintero at the Niskidhe Dhegiha meeting, I think, based on her perception of the pattern in Osage. The article akha is applied in the same text to 'my father' and 'my mother'. The bull is definite, but starts as ama and perhaps only shifts to akha as it becomes more central to the text? In effect, akha is really proximate (on stage), and ama is only sort of proximate (on stage). I think this is worth investigating, but I don't know if it holds water at this point. There is an obviative (off stage) clause toward the end of the text: Akhi'=kki, I arrived home when iN'naNha akha iNda'di i'husa akha kki, my mother the my father she was scolding him the (PROGR) when akhi'. I arrived home S^aN'ge thaN maN'zedhahe udha'ha khi= the=di, horse the (OBV) bridle stuck on it he arrived back (OBV) when i'bahaN=i the aN'aNdh idhe'=dha=i the. she knew EVID it threw me SUDDENLY EVID When I got back my mother was scolding my father. When the horse got back with its bridle hanging she knew [what had happened] (it seemed). It had thrown me (it seemed). * The word for bridle is maN'ze 'iron' + dhahe, which is the root of the stem udha'ha 'to adhere, be stuck on' tha follows, I think. * I think that the pattern of clauses in the first sentence, with 'When I got home, when my mother was scolding my father, I got home' is probably just a misspeaking, but I'm in no position to say. * I assume that the 'it threw me' clause at the end is a sort of repair, to clarify what it was that his mother had realized. I would normally expect the opposite order of clauses in general terms, though I don't know if one can actually say something like ? aNaNdha idhe'=dha=i (the(=di)) i'bahaN=i=the it threw me SUDDENLY (when) she knew it EVID Notice that as this sentence already shows, an evidential or perfective *the*, especially if followed by =di LOCATIVE, is rendered 'when' with a subordinate clause. Notice that this text is also rife with final-position subjects. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 19 05:52:16 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 22:52:16 -0700 Subject: A Metaphorical Suggestion Message-ID: Many Siouanists may know that Ardis Eschenberg has been able to make progress with understanding Omaha-Ponca obviation by restating the proximate/obviative distinction in terms of on-stage/off-stage. She observes in particular that there is no limit on the number of proximate references, and that this is more consistent with the staging metaphor. It has occurred to me to wonder if the akha : ama distinction might be relatable to this metaphor by considering ama as tantamount to a stage direction of 'enter X' or 'exit/exeunt X', while akha refers to a reference which is currently on stage. Dhegihanists will recall that Omaha intuitions as to what explained obviative subjects - as reported by Dorsey - were in terms of incidental factors. Obviative subjects were characterized as being out of sight or acting for others: in short "off stage." Perhaps explanations like 'moving' and 'plural' (numerous, non-individuated) are similar ways of characterizing maginality or transition with respect to staging? I haven't any evidence to support this hypothesis at present. At best it is consistent with some tentative suggestions of Carolyn Quintero relative to Osage (a)kxa : (a)pa. It's probably a little too convenient (for my own good). At any rate, it should be fairly easy to test from texts, which is convenient for me. JEK From jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu Tue Mar 19 15:26:58 2002 From: jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu (John Boyle) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:26:58 -0600 Subject: 2003 Meeting Message-ID: Dear All, Last year at the Siouan and Caddoan languages conference (SACLC) we tossed around the idea of having the 2003 meeting in conjunction with the 2003 LSA Institute at the University of Michigan. The Institute dates run from June 30 - August 8. I am writing to see if people still want to do the SACLC in conjunction with the summer Institute? If so we need to choose a weekend for the conference (we can't have in Monday - Thursday). Also the first weekend of the Institute is the weekend of the 4th of July, so that probably wouldn't be a good time and the weekend of July 18 - 20 the Committee on the Status of Women in Linguistics is meeting. The possible weekend dates for the conference are as follows: July 4 - 6 July 11 - 13 July 18 - 20 July 25 - 27 Aug. 1 - 3 Aug. 8 - 10 In addition, could people also comment on the following: 1) We need to have an estimate of the number of participants (so we can reserve an appropriate size room). I am going to estimate the the number of participants to be approximately 30. Does this seem right? 2) What king of AV equipment will people need? 3) Do we want to have the conference advertised generally during the Institute? 4) Do we want the conference to appear in the Institute brochure? I assume that the answers to questions 3 & 4 are' yes', but I wanted to check with everyone. If people could either respond to the list if there is something that needs to be addressed by everyone (possible dates) or to me personally at about anything else, I'd appreciate it. We need to get this resolved in the next two or three weeks so we can get our spot reserved if we decide to have the conference in conjunction with the institute. Thanks, John P. Boyle Department of Linguistics University of Chicago From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Tue Mar 19 16:11:58 2002 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:11:58 -0700 Subject: 2003 Meeting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, John, for assembling this information. Personally, I always find meeting with the Institute to be stimulating and worthwhile, both because we get people in our sessions who would not normally come, and because there's so much else going on at the same time that we can sometimes take advantage of. I would vote for one of the July weekends rather than one in August, and particularly prefer the 11th or the 18th. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Tue, 19 Mar 2002, John Boyle wrote: > Dear All, > > Last year at the Siouan and Caddoan languages conference (SACLC) we > tossed around the idea of having the 2003 meeting in conjunction with > the 2003 LSA Institute at the University of Michigan. The Institute > dates run from June 30 - August 8. I am writing to see if people > still want to do the SACLC in conjunction with the summer Institute? > If so we need to choose a weekend for the conference (we can't have > in Monday - Thursday). Also the first weekend of the Institute is > the weekend of the 4th of July, so that probably wouldn't be a good > time and the weekend of July 18 - 20 the Committee on the Status of > Women in Linguistics is meeting. The possible weekend dates for the > conference are as follows: > > July 4 - 6 > July 11 - 13 > July 18 - 20 > July 25 - 27 > Aug. 1 - 3 > Aug. 8 - 10 > > In addition, could people also comment on the following: > > 1) We need to have an estimate of the number of participants (so we > can reserve an appropriate size room). I am going to estimate the > the number of participants to be approximately 30. Does this seem > right? > > 2) What king of AV equipment will people need? > > 3) Do we want to have the conference advertised generally during the Institute? > > 4) Do we want the conference to appear in the Institute brochure? > > I assume that the answers to questions 3 & 4 are' yes', but I wanted > to check with everyone. If people could either respond to the list > if there is something that needs to be addressed by everyone > (possible dates) or to me personally at > about anything else, I'd appreciate it. We need to get this resolved > in the next two or three weeks so we can get our spot reserved if we > decide to have the conference in conjunction with the institute. > > Thanks, > > John P. Boyle > Department of Linguistics > University of Chicago > From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Tue Mar 19 17:10:51 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 11:10:51 -0600 Subject: Dhegihanists. Message-ID: Hi Bob, This is exactly what I've been saying happens in Osage. OS -apa is the moving present marker whether singular or plural. The OS -akxa would show that the bull is present but not moving. I'm so glad others are finding this too. Carolyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2002 1:01 PM Subject: Dhegihanists. > > I've been working thru the paper by Barron and Serzisko on Siouan > positionals and Ponca article use. They cite two sentences from JOD > 1890:466.7 and 467.3. > > Ki te-nuga ama waji-pibaji > and buffalo bull the [moving] was savage > And the buffalo bull was savage. > > Waji-pibaji te-nuga aka > was savage Buffalo bull the [not in motion] > The buffalo bull was savage. > > Is this your reading of the above sentences? Is buffalo bull singular or > plural here? Is the article difference due to motion, number or something > else? > > B&S did a good job of finding some interesting examples in > Dorsey, but they don't always analyze them correctly and they confuse > homophones [thaN] 'article' and 'postposition from' along with [the] > 'article' and 'evidential' (and sometimes [tte] 'irrealis'). > > Bob > From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Tue Mar 19 17:21:01 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 11:21:01 -0600 Subject: 2003 Meeting Message-ID: I vote for August, on the basis that I would like to get out of OK and TX during August heat. Plus I'd tentatively planned to be in Venezuela in July. Carolyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Boyle" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 9:26 AM Subject: 2003 Meeting > Dear All, > > Last year at the Siouan and Caddoan languages conference (SACLC) we > tossed around the idea of having the 2003 meeting in conjunction with > the 2003 LSA Institute at the University of Michigan. The Institute > dates run from June 30 - August 8. I am writing to see if people > still want to do the SACLC in conjunction with the summer Institute? > If so we need to choose a weekend for the conference (we can't have > in Monday - Thursday). Also the first weekend of the Institute is > the weekend of the 4th of July, so that probably wouldn't be a good > time and the weekend of July 18 - 20 the Committee on the Status of > Women in Linguistics is meeting. The possible weekend dates for the > conference are as follows: > > July 4 - 6 > July 11 - 13 > July 18 - 20 > July 25 - 27 > Aug. 1 - 3 > Aug. 8 - 10 > > In addition, could people also comment on the following: > > 1) We need to have an estimate of the number of participants (so we > can reserve an appropriate size room). I am going to estimate the > the number of participants to be approximately 30. Does this seem > right? > > 2) What king of AV equipment will people need? > > 3) Do we want to have the conference advertised generally during the Institute? > > 4) Do we want the conference to appear in the Institute brochure? > > I assume that the answers to questions 3 & 4 are' yes', but I wanted > to check with everyone. If people could either respond to the list > if there is something that needs to be addressed by everyone > (possible dates) or to me personally at > about anything else, I'd appreciate it. We need to get this resolved > in the next two or three weeks so we can get our spot reserved if we > decide to have the conference in conjunction with the institute. > > Thanks, > > John P. Boyle > Department of Linguistics > University of Chicago > From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Tue Mar 19 20:36:05 2002 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 14:36:05 -0600 Subject: 2003 Meeting Message-ID: I like the idea of meeting with LSA institute, but it's too far ahead for me to have much sense of which week would be best. I think I have a conflict the weekend of July 11. Later is probably better for me??? Who knows! By the way... Perhaps I've just not been paying sufficient attention -- but I don't know when THIS year's conference (2002) is. Has a firm date been set? Is it still in ND? Summer is getting pretty booked up... I'll be pretty embarrassed if everyone else has known the date for months and I've gone and scheduled something else at the same time... Catherine ---------------------------------------------------- > Last year at the Siouan and Caddoan languages conference (SACLC) we > tossed around the idea of having the 2003 meeting in conjunction with > the 2003 LSA Institute at the University of Michigan. The Institute > dates run from June 30 - August 8. I am writing to see if people > still want to do the SACLC in conjunction with the summer Institute? > If so we need to choose a weekend for the conference (we can't have > in Monday - Thursday). Also the first weekend of the Institute is > the weekend of the 4th of July, so that probably wouldn't be a good > time and the weekend of July 18 - 20 the Committee on the Status of > Women in Linguistics is meeting. The possible weekend dates for the > conference are as follows: > > July 4 - 6 > July 11 - 13 > July 18 - 20 > July 25 - 27 > Aug. 1 - 3 > Aug. 8 - 10 > > In addition, could people also comment on the following: > > 1) We need to have an estimate of the number of participants (so we > can reserve an appropriate size room). I am going to estimate the > the number of participants to be approximately 30. Does this seem > right? > > 2) What king of AV equipment will people need? > > 3) Do we want to have the conference advertised generally during the Institute? > > 4) Do we want the conference to appear in the Institute brochure? > > I assume that the answers to questions 3 & 4 are' yes', but I wanted > to check with everyone. If people could either respond to the list > if there is something that needs to be addressed by everyone > (possible dates) or to me personally at > about anything else, I'd appreciate it. We need to get this resolved > in the next two or three weeks so we can get our spot reserved if we > decide to have the conference in conjunction with the institute. > > Thanks, > > John P. Boyle > Department of Linguistics > University of Chicago > From kdshea at ku.edu Wed Mar 20 09:16:59 2002 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 03:16:59 -0600 Subject: 2003 Meeting Message-ID: I would add my vote for August. Kathy Shea ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Boyle" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 9:26 AM Subject: 2003 Meeting > Dear All, > > Last year at the Siouan and Caddoan languages conference (SACLC) we > tossed around the idea of having the 2003 meeting in conjunction with > the 2003 LSA Institute at the University of Michigan. The Institute > dates run from June 30 - August 8. I am writing to see if people > still want to do the SACLC in conjunction with the summer Institute? > If so we need to choose a weekend for the conference (we can't have > in Monday - Thursday). Also the first weekend of the Institute is > the weekend of the 4th of July, so that probably wouldn't be a good > time and the weekend of July 18 - 20 the Committee on the Status of > Women in Linguistics is meeting. The possible weekend dates for the > conference are as follows: > > July 4 - 6 > July 11 - 13 > July 18 - 20 > July 25 - 27 > Aug. 1 - 3 > Aug. 8 - 10 > > In addition, could people also comment on the following: > > 1) We need to have an estimate of the number of participants (so we > can reserve an appropriate size room). I am going to estimate the > the number of participants to be approximately 30. Does this seem > right? > > 2) What king of AV equipment will people need? > > 3) Do we want to have the conference advertised generally during the Institute? > > 4) Do we want the conference to appear in the Institute brochure? > > I assume that the answers to questions 3 & 4 are' yes', but I wanted > to check with everyone. If people could either respond to the list > if there is something that needs to be addressed by everyone > (possible dates) or to me personally at > about anything else, I'd appreciate it. We need to get this resolved > in the next two or three weeks so we can get our spot reserved if we > decide to have the conference in conjunction with the institute. > > Thanks, > > John P. Boyle > Department of Linguistics > University of Chicago From kdshea at ku.edu Wed Mar 20 09:24:59 2002 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 03:24:59 -0600 Subject: 2003 Meeting Message-ID: Oops, John, I wasn't thinking! It hadn't sunk in that you were talking about 2003, so please disregard my last message. I don't have a preference for any specific date for SACC in the summer of 2003 at this point. Kathy Shea ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Boyle" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 9:26 AM Subject: 2003 Meeting > Dear All, > > Last year at the Siouan and Caddoan languages conference (SACLC) we > tossed around the idea of having the 2003 meeting in conjunction with > the 2003 LSA Institute at the University of Michigan. The Institute > dates run from June 30 - August 8. I am writing to see if people > still want to do the SACLC in conjunction with the summer Institute? > If so we need to choose a weekend for the conference (we can't have > in Monday - Thursday). Also the first weekend of the Institute is > the weekend of the 4th of July, so that probably wouldn't be a good > time and the weekend of July 18 - 20 the Committee on the Status of > Women in Linguistics is meeting. The possible weekend dates for the > conference are as follows: > > July 4 - 6 > July 11 - 13 > July 18 - 20 > July 25 - 27 > Aug. 1 - 3 > Aug. 8 - 10 > > In addition, could people also comment on the following: > > 1) We need to have an estimate of the number of participants (so we > can reserve an appropriate size room). I am going to estimate the > the number of participants to be approximately 30. Does this seem > right? > > 2) What king of AV equipment will people need? > > 3) Do we want to have the conference advertised generally during the Institute? > > 4) Do we want the conference to appear in the Institute brochure? > > I assume that the answers to questions 3 & 4 are' yes', but I wanted > to check with everyone. If people could either respond to the list > if there is something that needs to be addressed by everyone > (possible dates) or to me personally at > about anything else, I'd appreciate it. We need to get this resolved > in the next two or three weeks so we can get our spot reserved if we > decide to have the conference in conjunction with the institute. > > Thanks, > > John P. Boyle > Department of Linguistics > University of Chicago From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 20 15:48:05 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 08:48:05 -0700 Subject: A Metaphorical Suggestion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Mar 2002, Koontz John E wrote: > It has occurred to me to wonder if the akha : ama distinction might be > relatable to this metaphor by considering ama as tantamount to a stage > direction of 'enter X' or 'exit/exeunt X', while akha refers to a > reference which is currently on stage. I've started looking at this, though I hope that won't stop anyone else - especially if they need quick answers, Ardis and/or Kathy! It's certainly not as simple as first mention in ama, subsequent mentions in akha - which, of course, I pretty much took for granted - not even as simple as first mentions in akha or ama, subsequent mentions in akha or continuing ama in ama. At least I don't think so. In some of the texts I was considering, the NP changed as well as the article, which could be relevant, and I was nodding out earlier than usual. It does seem clear that most plural references are ama, if perhaps not all - I haven't relocated any akha plural examples. But, as everybody has been noticing all along and not pursuing, there's something fishy about the ama-singular => moving equation, because you can have two closely positioned cases of NP ama V-MOTION and NP akha V-MOTION. I thought about motion verbs implying motion if they were verbs of arrival, but both of the verbs in question were arrival verbs, I believe. One case I noticed introduced Rabbit (ama) living with his grandmother (akha). The approach that always occurs to me in cases like this is to handle the text as a series of sentences reduced, say, to the NPs, with identity tracking numbers attached to the NPs. The question is how much other information needs to be included. In the past I've always ended up including so much that I decided the project was too much work just now. This time I've decided to try just the NPs - ignoring even things like whether the predicate is a verb of motion or there is a pronominal (in verb) (often a third person nil) reference to the NP in a clause, though I suspect both of these might be relevant. The problem is that Omaha piles up predicates so readily that you can end up with several of these A3 and/or P3 references to an NP in a clause. You end up spending all your time locating these "zero references," and none of it looking at NPs. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 20 15:55:10 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 08:55:10 -0700 Subject: Me Hi Message-ID: (?) Eskana me hi the, naNde dhiudaN kkaNbdha. Eskana me hi tHe, noNde thiudoN koNbtha. From rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu Wed Mar 20 16:32:50 2002 From: rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu (rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 10:32:50 -0600 Subject: Me Hi Message-ID: > (?) Eskana me hi the, naNde dhiudaN kkaNbdha. > Eskana me hi tHe, noNde thiudoN koNbtha. I would loosely gloss this as: I suppose spring has arrived where you are, which hopefully makes your heart glad. Is this from one of the Ponca Letters? Rory From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Wed Mar 20 17:28:31 2002 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:28:31 -0600 Subject: A Metaphorical Suggestion Message-ID: John -- I'm looking forward to seeing your results on akha/ama in texts -- maybe we'll finally put one or two of these questions to rest! Just a side comment on plural references with akha. We did look at some instances of akha with plural at the Niskidhe meeting, and I've got plenty of them in my recorded texts too, but as far as I remember most if not all of them have an explicit number, which might make a difference. I mean phrases like "wa'u naNba akha" (the two women), where naNba makes it very explicitly plural... Catherine It does seem clear that most plural references are ama, if perhaps not all - I haven't relocated any akha plural examples. But, as everybody has been noticing all along and not pursuing, there's something fishy about the ama-singular => moving equation, because you can have two closely positioned cases of NP ama V-MOTION and NP akha V-MOTION. I thought about motion verbs implying motion if they were verbs of arrival, but both of the verbs in question were arrival verbs, I believe. One case I noticed introduced Rabbit (ama) living with his grandmother (akha). The approach that always occurs to me in cases like this is to handle the text as a series of sentences reduced, say, to the NPs, with identity tracking numbers attached to the NPs. The question is how much other information needs to be included. In the past I've always ended up including so much that I decided the project was too much work just now. This time I've decided to try just the NPs - ignoring even things like whether the predicate is a verb of motion or there is a pronominal (in verb) (often a third person nil) reference to the NP in a clause, though I suspect both of these might be relevant. The problem is that Omaha piles up predicates so readily that you can end up with several of these A3 and/or P3 references to an NP in a clause. You end up spending all your time locating these "zero references," and none of it looking at NPs. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 20 17:58:45 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 10:58:45 -0700 Subject: Me Hi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu wrote: > > (?) Eskana me hi the, naNde dhiudaN kkaNbdha. > > > Eskana me hi tHe, noNde thiudoN koNbtha. > > I would loosely gloss this as: > > I suppose spring has arrived where you are, > which hopefully makes your heart glad. > > Is this from one of the Ponca Letters? No. I'm afraid I made it up. I've been wrestling with the syntax of this sort of thing for years. I'm now thinking maybe ... (?) Eskana me s^uhi egaN naNde dhiudaN kkaNbdhegaN, Eskana me shuhi egoN noNde thiudoN koNbthegoN. Or maybe adaN/adoN 'and therefore' instead of egaN/egoN 'and so' (or 'having')? I think I got the "would that" idiom "Eska(na) ... kkaNbdh=egaN" right this time. I forgot the final egaN the first time. I'm pretty sure on reflection that s^uhi 'arrive there where you are' is better than simple hi 'arrive there'. Maybe it should be reflexive. So, by intent, something like "Happy spring!" I understand this is the first day of Spring in the calendrical sense. Spring is here in Boulder, but in typical Front Range (High Plains) fashion will alternate with winter for several months more. (Note: I haven't heard any thunder yet.) This may or may not be grammatical and is probably weak culturally in several ways, e.g., I've never encountered an idiom expressing greetings, etc., based on some occasion, e.g., no "Merry Christmas" or "Congratulations on being pipe danced," etc. JEK From are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu Wed Mar 20 20:37:32 2002 From: are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu (Ardis R Eschenberg) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:37:32 -0500 Subject: A Metaphorical Suggestion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In my dissertation, I describe and believe I have evidence for the explanation between ama being used with motion involving a scene shift while akHa is used with motion in the same general setting. I gave a few examples of this in my Colorado talk. It can be thought of as marked motion vs. unmarked motion. Similarly, akHa tends to be used when number is evident from other words/morphemes and ama is used itself to mark plural number (when there are no other markers such as an overt number). This can also be thought of as marked and unmarked. I'm in the thick of this chapter right now. My evidence is both from Dorsey and my own stuff. On another topic... What are the dates for Spearfish? I'm sorry, I can;t seem to find where I wrote them down (if I did). Regards, Ardis On Wed, 20 Mar 2002, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > > John -- I'm looking forward to seeing your results on akha/ama in texts -- > maybe we'll finally put one or two of these questions to rest! Just a > side comment on plural references with akha. We did look at some instances > of akha with plural at the Niskidhe meeting, and I've got plenty of them in > my recorded texts too, but as far as I remember most if not all of them > have an explicit number, which might make a difference. I mean phrases > like "wa'u naNba akha" (the two women), where naNba makes it very > explicitly plural... > Catherine > > > > > > It does seem clear that most plural references are ama, if perhaps not all > - I haven't relocated any akha plural examples. But, as everybody has > been noticing all along and not pursuing, there's something fishy about > the ama-singular => moving equation, because you can have two closely > positioned cases of NP ama V-MOTION and NP akha V-MOTION. I thought about > motion verbs implying motion if they were verbs of arrival, but both of > the verbs in question were arrival verbs, I believe. One case I noticed > introduced Rabbit (ama) living with his grandmother (akha). > > The approach that always occurs to me in cases like this is to handle the > text as a series of sentences reduced, say, to the NPs, with identity > tracking numbers attached to the NPs. The question is how much other > information needs to be included. In the past I've always ended up > including so much that I decided the project was too much work just now. > This time I've decided to try just the NPs - ignoring even things like > whether the predicate is a verb of motion or there is a pronominal (in > verb) (often a third person nil) reference to the NP in a clause, though I > suspect both of these might be relevant. The problem is that Omaha piles > up predicates so readily that you can end up with several of these A3 > and/or P3 references to an NP in a clause. You end up spending all your > time locating these "zero references," and none of it looking at NPs. > > JEK > > > > > > > From are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu Wed Mar 20 20:41:06 2002 From: are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu (Ardis R Eschenberg) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:41:06 -0500 Subject: Me Hi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: BTW we have had thunder here already (it was accompanied by hail and snow). Happy spring! From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Wed Mar 20 20:52:40 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:52:40 -0600 Subject: Me Hi Message-ID: Just for fun, here's my attempt at what the Osage of John's spring wish would be. The first part in parenthesis is based on one occurence I've seen of wie miNks^e used like 'chez moi' in French. [dhie niNks^e] pe hidhe apa ska, dhaaNce dhaliN dhihkoNbra Carolyn PS The desert in west Texas turned green in the last two days. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 10:32 AM Subject: Re: Me Hi > > > (?) Eskana me hi the, naNde dhiudaN kkaNbdha. > > > Eskana me hi tHe, noNde thiudoN koNbtha. > > I would loosely gloss this as: > > I suppose spring has arrived where you are, > which hopefully makes your heart glad. > > Is this from one of the Ponca Letters? > > Rory > From rankin at ku.edu Wed Mar 20 22:57:47 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 16:57:47 -0600 Subject: A Metaphorical Suggestion and meeting times. Message-ID: >... restating the proximate/obviative distinction in terms of on-stage/off-stage. I guess that, to me, that's what proximate/obviative IS basically. It's also been described as "central/peripheral" by Heather Hardy for Muskogean, where more than one reference is also possible in both categories, but I suspect she may just not have been familiar with the established "proximate/obviative" categories. I see no point in reinventing the terminological wheel; it seems to me that it's better to take the best the past has to offer and try to add something modest to it. We'll all be lucky if we can just accomplish that much. I guess this means I'll never be a very good discourse analyst. While it would be nice to be able to explain everything in the text collection, I think this is precisely the kind of problem that can best be approached by working with speakers (who can at least try to explain what they are thinking when using one or the other particle). THEN see if the texts can be rationalized in that light. As for the Summer meeting in 2003, I'm pretty flexible as far as I know. I must say that I tend to prefer meeting somewhere in Siouan-speaking territory, but the Institute will work as long as they don't want a lot of rent money from us for meeting space. Bob From dvklinguist at hotmail.com Wed Mar 20 23:34:07 2002 From: dvklinguist at hotmail.com (David Kaufman) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:34:07 +0000 Subject: Me Hi Message-ID: Hi Carolyn, You don't know me--my name is David Kaufman and I'm now a member of SSILA as well as of John's Siouan list. I'm finishing my MA Linguistics here at San Jos� State in California. I'm considering pursuing a Ph.D. in Linguistics. I'm actually going next week to Chicago to meet with John Boyle and the head of the dept. at U. of Chicago. I've been studying Hidatsa, and John and I have been in email contact as he patiently answers my gazillion questions! So I wanted to go back and visit him and learn more about what he's doing for his Ph.D. and field work with Hidatsa. The reason I'm emailing you is because I understand you are one of the few (perhaps the ONLY?) person working on Osage. I am a small part Osage (mixed with a huge part European) and have been interested in trying to get more info on the language. John mentioned that you did a dissertation on it. I'm wondering how I can get a copy of your dissertation and perhaps whatever other materials you may have on the language. Both John Boyle and John Koontz have indicated the need for someone to work on Winnebago, and I have expressed my interest in the possibility of working on it myself, hopefully as part of a Ph.D. dissertation. I still need to take the GRE and actually apply to programs, but I am trying to meet people and make connections and get info about the different programs. So far, Chicago and Boulder both sound quite promising! I'd appreciate whatever information or advice you can offer me about Osage and Native American studies in general. And if you have any info about Ph.D. programs where you live, please let me know. I'll have my phone and email info at the end of this email. (I'm also listed in the SSILA member directory.) Thank you so much! Dave Kaufman MA Linguistics (May 2002) San Jos� State University Phone: 408-266-8946 Email: dvklinguist at hotmail.com >From: "Carolyn Quintero" >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: >Subject: Re: Me Hi >Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:52:40 -0600 > >Just for fun, here's my attempt at what the Osage of John's spring wish >would be. The first part in parenthesis is based on one occurence I've >seen >of wie miNks^e used like 'chez moi' in French. > >[dhie niNks^e] pe hidhe apa ska, dhaaNce dhaliN dhihkoNbra >Carolyn >PS The desert in west Texas turned green in the last two days. >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 10:32 AM >Subject: Re: Me Hi > > > > > > > (?) Eskana me hi the, naNde dhiudaN kkaNbdha. > > > > > Eskana me hi tHe, noNde thiudoN koNbtha. > > > > I would loosely gloss this as: > > > > I suppose spring has arrived where you are, > > which hopefully makes your heart glad. > > > > Is this from one of the Ponca Letters? > > > > Rory > > > Check out my personal web site: http://dvklinguist.homestead.com/Homepage1.html _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Thu Mar 21 02:53:49 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 20:53:49 -0600 Subject: Osage... Message-ID: **Reply is below ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Kaufman" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 5:34 PM Subject: Re: Me Hi Hi Carolyn, You don't know me--my name is David Kaufman and I'm now a member of SSILA as well as of John's Siouan list. I'm finishing my MA Linguistics here at San Jos� State in California. I'm considering pursuing a Ph.D. in Linguistics. I'm actually going next week to Chicago to meet with John Boyle and the head of the dept. at U. of Chicago. I've been studying Hidatsa, and John and I have been in email contact as he patiently answers my gazillion questions! So I wanted to go back and visit him and learn more about what he's doing for his Ph.D. and field work with Hidatsa. **Hi David, Well, welcome to the small group of us interested in Siouan languages. John certainly is a good person for you to talk to. The reason I'm emailing you is because I understand you are one of the few (perhaps the ONLY?) person working on Osage. I am a small part Osage (mixed with a huge part European) and have been interested in trying to get more info on the language. John mentioned that you did a dissertation on it. I'm wondering how I can get a copy of your dissertation and perhaps whatever other materials you may have on the language. **I believe I'm the only person working on Osage. And now I've just recently lost my main speaker to ill health. There are only a couple of other speakers, and they are so "rusty" (as they say), not having spoken Osage for 30 years, that they are not really comfortable trying to produce the information I need at this point. So, while there is work to be done on a limited set of older texts (La Flesche), there is no longer a possibility of working with speakers, I believe. If you'd like to work from texts, or to try your hand with these very few speakers, I'd be delighted to give you whatever guidance I can. I should mention that there is one elderly gentleman in Missouri who could just possibly be able to recall some of the language, with whom I have never tried to work. Both John Boyle and John Koontz have indicated the need for someone to work on Winnebago, and I have expressed my interest in the possibility of working on it myself, hopefully as part of a Ph.D. dissertation. I still need to take the GRE and actually apply to programs, but I am trying to meet people and make connections and get info about the different programs. So far, Chicago and Boulder both sound quite promising! ***Both are good schools for what you want to do. Bob Rankin at the U. Kansas at Lawrence is absolutely tops in this area, but he is retiring or semi-retired, I believe. University of Indiana has a good program, too, at Bloomington (Doug Parks, Ray DeMallie). I'd appreciate whatever information or advice you can offer me about Osage and Native American studies in general. And if you have any info about Ph.D. programs where you live, please let me know. I'll have my phone and email info at the end of this email. (I'm also listed in the SSILA member directory.) Thank you so much! **Please feel free to ask whatever you like about Osage. I don't know much about other programs, since I came into the Indian languages field from the University of Massachusetts graduate program, and we didn't do descriptive work when I was there. That program is one of the top four in the country, if you want to use your native languages materials to try to contribute to linguistic theory, which can be a lot of fun! **Regards, ***Carolyn Quintero **PS. I guess I should mention that I have a Grammar of Osage at the publisher's. And I'm trying to finish up a dictionary by summer or fall. Both of these efforts were quite difficult given the obsolescence of the language. I've self-published a brief textbook, fairly informal, for beginning Osage language. Dave Kaufman MA Linguistics (May 2002) San Jos� State University Phone: 408-266-8946 Email: dvklinguist at hotmail.com >From: "Carolyn Quintero" >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: >Subject: Re: Me Hi >Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:52:40 -0600 > >Just for fun, here's my attempt at what the Osage of John's spring wish >would be. The first part in parenthesis is based on one occurence I've >seen >of wie miNks^e used like 'chez moi' in French. > >[dhie niNks^e] pe hidhe apa ska, dhaaNce dhaliN dhihkoNbra >Carolyn >PS The desert in west Texas turned green in the last two days. >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 10:32 AM >Subject: Re: Me Hi > > > > > > > (?) Eskana me hi the, naNde dhiudaN kkaNbdha. > > > > > Eskana me hi tHe, noNde thiudoN koNbtha. > > > > I would loosely gloss this as: > > > > I suppose spring has arrived where you are, > > which hopefully makes your heart glad. > > > > Is this from one of the Ponca Letters? > > > > Rory > > > Check out my personal web site: http://dvklinguist.homestead.com/Homepage1.html _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Thu Mar 21 02:55:47 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 20:55:47 -0600 Subject: Oops, dissertation. Message-ID: My dissertation is Osage Phonology and Verbal Morphology, available through UMI. Carolyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Kaufman" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 5:34 PM Subject: Re: Me Hi Hi Carolyn, You don't know me--my name is David Kaufman and I'm now a member of SSILA as well as of John's Siouan list. I'm finishing my MA Linguistics here at San Jos� State in California. I'm considering pursuing a Ph.D. in Linguistics. I'm actually going next week to Chicago to meet with John Boyle and the head of the dept. at U. of Chicago. I've been studying Hidatsa, and John and I have been in email contact as he patiently answers my gazillion questions! So I wanted to go back and visit him and learn more about what he's doing for his Ph.D. and field work with Hidatsa. The reason I'm emailing you is because I understand you are one of the few (perhaps the ONLY?) person working on Osage. I am a small part Osage (mixed with a huge part European) and have been interested in trying to get more info on the language. John mentioned that you did a dissertation on it. I'm wondering how I can get a copy of your dissertation and perhaps whatever other materials you may have on the language. Both John Boyle and John Koontz have indicated the need for someone to work on Winnebago, and I have expressed my interest in the possibility of working on it myself, hopefully as part of a Ph.D. dissertation. I still need to take the GRE and actually apply to programs, but I am trying to meet people and make connections and get info about the different programs. So far, Chicago and Boulder both sound quite promising! I'd appreciate whatever information or advice you can offer me about Osage and Native American studies in general. And if you have any info about Ph.D. programs where you live, please let me know. I'll have my phone and email info at the end of this email. (I'm also listed in the SSILA member directory.) Thank you so much! Dave Kaufman MA Linguistics (May 2002) San Jos� State University Phone: 408-266-8946 Email: dvklinguist at hotmail.com >From: "Carolyn Quintero" >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: >Subject: Re: Me Hi >Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:52:40 -0600 > >Just for fun, here's my attempt at what the Osage of John's spring wish >would be. The first part in parenthesis is based on one occurence I've >seen >of wie miNks^e used like 'chez moi' in French. > >[dhie niNks^e] pe hidhe apa ska, dhaaNce dhaliN dhihkoNbra >Carolyn >PS The desert in west Texas turned green in the last two days. >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 10:32 AM >Subject: Re: Me Hi > > > > > > > (?) Eskana me hi the, naNde dhiudaN kkaNbdha. > > > > > Eskana me hi tHe, noNde thiudoN koNbtha. > > > > I would loosely gloss this as: > > > > I suppose spring has arrived where you are, > > which hopefully makes your heart glad. > > > > Is this from one of the Ponca Letters? > > > > Rory > > > Check out my personal web site: http://dvklinguist.homestead.com/Homepage1.html _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu Thu Mar 21 14:44:41 2002 From: rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu (rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:44:41 -0600 Subject: Me Hi Message-ID: > (?) Eskana me hi the, naNde dhiudaN kkaNbdha. > Eskana me hi tHe, noNde thiudoN koNbtha. Anyway, I think the proper answer to this is: ANkhazhi ho. Usnixti, tadesage. at least around this neck of the woods. Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Mar 21 15:31:07 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:31:07 -0700 Subject: Spearfish Announcement Pending; Subscriptions to List In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Mar 2002, Ardis R Eschenberg (and others) recently wrote: > What are the dates for Spearfish? I'm sorry, I can;t seem to find where I > wrote them down (if I did). I believe Dick Carter is now connected to the list through his current email address, and that an announcement concerning the Spearfish Meeting is pending. I don't know any particulars regarding the meeting. This provides an opportunity to say a few words about falling out of contact with the list: this is easy to do nowdays with everyone's email addresses changing constantly, but hard to detect, if you forget to move a subscription, because sometimes the list is just quiet. If you are wondering if you've fallen out of the loop, just check the archives at http://www.linguistlist.org. If there is a sequence of recent postings you haven't received, you'll know you aren't on the list anymore. At least not effectively. Some mail servera apparently handle mail for inactive or non-functional accounts by discarding it rather than complaining to the sender. We have several subscribers whose addresses are probably inactive even though I'm not getting any complaints from their mail servers. One recipient I am fairly certain is deceased. But maybe still reading email? I leave his subscription up as a memorial and just in case. In some cases you may have received some recent postings, but not all. This is because some of you let your mail boxes get full, so that additional material is not accepted. I usually don't delete someone immediately when I get a message like that. I don't delete people immediately when I get messages about servers not responding, etc., either. So, if the problem resolves itself and a mailbox starts working again you keep your subscription, but lose some intervening mail. After an indefinite period - a week or two - I do delete problem subscriptions in order to shut off the flow of complaining messages from their mail servers, so you can deactivate your subscription this way, perhaps without meaning to. One other class of problem that occurs especially with University people is that a person subscribes through one particular machine and later discovers that though they are receiving mail, they can't post from the machine they currently use. Let me know and I'll fix this for you. Sometimes Universities also reform their address schemes in ways that have the same effect. You can only post if your current address is identical to the one you subscribed from. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Mar 21 15:39:37 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:39:37 -0700 Subject: Me Hi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu wrote: > Anyway, I think the proper answer to this is: > > ANkhazhi ho. Usnixti, tadesage. no it's real cold out (with a) hard wind. > > at least around this neck of the woods. EgaN. ANbathe mathe. Usniatt[a]sh[aN]. the same today it's snowing. It's real cold out What did I say about the Front Range weather? JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Mar 21 18:39:34 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 11:39:34 -0700 Subject: A Metaphorical Suggestion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Mar 2002, Ardis R Eschenberg wrote: > In my dissertation, I describe and believe I have evidence for the > explanation between ama being used with motion involving a scene shift > while akHa is used with motion in the same general setting. I gave a few > examples of this in my Colorado talk. It can be thought of as marked > motion vs. unmarked motion. Similarly, akHa tends to be used when number > is evident from other words/morphemes and ama is used itself to mark > plural number (when there are no other markers such as an overt number). > This can also be thought of as marked and unmarked. So, I take it that you argue that akha is unmarked generally, and that ama specificially marks plurality (when not otherwise marked) and movement (when noted to invoke a change of scene)? I take it that the change of scene involves all the referents, so that the set of referents (other than the ama NP) should change, or, in some cases, everybody should be translated to another location or join another group? Also, it sounds as if, perhaps, a change of scene could occur with ama-marking if there is no movement (or is novement necessary?). I assume ama-marking of plurality can occur without a change of scene? Of course, it's very interesting having plural marking used with the more marked cases - it's a parallel with plural marking being used (in part) to code proximateness. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Mar 21 18:53:12 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 11:53:12 -0700 Subject: A Metaphorical Suggestion and meeting times. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Mar 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I guess that, to me, that's what proximate/obviative IS basically. It's > also been described as "central/peripheral" by Heather Hardy for Muskogean, > where more than one reference is also possible in both categories, but I > suspect she may just not have been familiar with the established > "proximate/obviative" categories. I don't really have any problem with continuing to use the terms proximate/obviative, but I thought the staging metaphor was helpful in explaining the usual multiplicity of proximate references and the sorts of explanations of obviative references that Dorsey's sources offered. It probably makes the Algonquianists feel more at ease, because I think they feel strongly that one proximate reference should be the maximum at a time. This reminds me a bit of Classical theater's limits on the number of actors. > While it would be nice to be able to explain everything in the text > collection, I think this is precisely the kind of problem that can > best be approached by working with speakers (who can at least try to > explain what they are thinking when using one or the other particle). > THEN see if the texts can be rationalized in that light. It would be nice to be in a position to be able to do this. On the other hand, it's difficult to get a really coherent discussion of 'the' out of an English speaker. I hoped that a little advance spadework might help those in a position to make inquiries and conduct tests. I am embarassed to say that I seem to have lost track of Ardis's state of advance in this area. The Siouan Syntax meeting John Boyle organized in Colorado was very exciting, and I seem to have lost my grip on parts of it. From enichol4 at attbi.com Fri Mar 22 00:00:24 2002 From: enichol4 at attbi.com (Eric) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 18:00:24 -0600 Subject: A Metaphorical Suggestion and meeting times. Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 12:53 PM Subject: RE: A Metaphorical Suggestion and meeting times. > On Wed, 20 Mar 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > I guess that, to me, that's what proximate/obviative IS basically. It's > > also been described as "central/peripheral" by Heather Hardy for Muskogean, > > where more than one reference is also possible in both categories, but I > > suspect she may just not have been familiar with the established > > "proximate/obviative" categories. > > I don't really have any problem with continuing to use the terms > proximate/obviative, but I thought the staging metaphor was helpful in > explaining the usual multiplicity of proximate references and the sorts of > explanations of obviative references that Dorsey's sources offered. It > probably makes the Algonquianists feel more at ease, because I think they > feel strongly that one proximate reference should be the maximum at a > time. This reminds me a bit of Classical theater's limits on the number > of actors........... A metaphor I've heard used in discussions of Algonquian obviation is that of cinematic "point of view". The local (first and second person) participants view the situation from a "camera angle" that keeps the proximate referant in the foreground. So in Algonquian you get proximate shifts of perspective that reflect changes in the attitude of the speaker toward the relative importance of the referants, just as cutting from one camera angle to another in a movie can draw the audience's attention to what the director wants to focus on. The stage metaphor for Siouan sounds a bit more objective to me. --Eric N. From rankin at ku.edu Fri Mar 22 23:37:21 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:37:21 -0600 Subject: Lakota dictionary. Message-ID: Those in the U.S. who might wish to order Bruce Ingham's Lakota dictionary may do so from Amazon.com in the UK. Their American web site wouldn't give me any price for it, but the UK site did. It comes to around 45 English pounds, and with shipping, close to 50. Bob From Zylogy at aol.com Sat Mar 23 17:23:28 2002 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:23:28 EST Subject: spatial/locational paradigms Message-ID: Yuchi and Siouan both had large sized spatial/locational paradigms. Does anyone know the situation areally? How do Caddoan and Iroquoian deal with this, or Keresan, Tanoan? I've a better idea now about typological cycling with regard to incorporated stem elements, how they're interpreted, etc. and want to get the bigger areal (wave) perspective, to see if the model still holds. Thanks. Best, Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com From BARudes at aol.com Sat Mar 23 21:32:45 2002 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 16:32:45 EST Subject: spatial/locational paradigms Message-ID: Jess, The situation with regard to locatives in Northern Iroquoian languages is that these languages have a very limited set of locatives that, with but one exception, all appear to be derivatives of stative verbs. (The cue in Tuscarora that the suffix is nominal or verbal in nature is the shift (for most nouns) from the simple noun prefix u- to the prefix ka-.) I will illustrate with forms from Tuscarora (an aposthrophe means the following vowel has high pitch accent, a grave means the following vowel has low pitch accent; a following N means the vowel is nasal; ? is used for glottal stop; : is used for vowel length; c is used for the palatal affricate c-hachek): un'eNhseh 'house' (root -neNhs-, from Proto-Northern Iroquoian *-noNhs- 'house') uneNhs'ehkye ~ uneNhs'a?kye ~ uneNhs'eN?kye 'at, on (the) house' (noun suffix -kye 'external locative' from Proto-Northern Iroquoian (PNI) *-ke 'external locative'; there is some evidence that the alternation among the simple noun suffixes -eh, -a?, -eN? resulted in slightly different meanings among these forms) kan'eNhsakeNw ~ kan'eNhsakeN: 'in, under (the) house' (verbal suffix -akeNw 'internal locative' from PNI *-akoNw 'internal locative', related to the PNI stative verb *-akoNw- 'lay within, lay inside') (the Lake Iroquoian languages, i.e., Northern Iroquoian minus Tuscarora and Nottoway, have another locative suffix similar to this one with initial /o/ rather than /a/ and a somewhat different meaning that I do not remember at the moment.) kan'eNhsakwt ~ kan'eNhsa:kt 'next to, beside (the) house' (verbal suffix -a:kt- 'lateral locative' from PNI *-a:kt- 'lateral locativel', related to the PNI stative verb *-a:kt- 'be next to, be alongside' kan'eNhsa'ni 'at the edge of, beyond, on the other side of (the) house' (verbal suffix -a'ni 'peripheral' from PNI *-ati 'peripheral locative' - further root connection uncertain) The verbal cislocative (t-) prefix can also be used with some nouns, typically deverbal nouns, to express location, as in tk`ineN 'at (the) creek' from k`ineN 'creek'. I do not know enough about Southern Iroquoian (Cherokee) to comment on the locative system except to say that it seems as simple or simpler than the Northern Iroquoian system. Although you did not ask, I might mention that the Catawba locative system works as follows. There are a series of locative prefixes that may occur on verbs, and that include aki:# 'near', capa# 'away', cik# 'forward', duk# 'back', ha# 'here', had# 'forward', ha:p# 'up', hi:cu# 'supine', hid# 'over yonder', huk# 'down', ka# 'upright', kepa# (Esaw kep#) 'under', ma# 'there', su# 'in', suk# 'on top', tak# 'in front', taN# (Esaw teraN#) 'out', yap# 'everywhere', yita# (Esaw yata#) 'across'. Some of these (e.g., ma, suk) may also occur as postclitics on nouns. The others may occur as independent locative particles with a final vowel (typically -i: or -u:) attached (e.g., ha:p'i: 'up'). Blair From Zylogy at aol.com Sat Mar 23 22:25:55 2002 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 17:25:55 EST Subject: spatial/locational paradigms Message-ID: Thank you Blair- I'm curious about those suffixes -eh, -a?, -eN? you mentioned in Tuscarora. One of the things I'm finding as an areal phenomenon in SE North America (and perhaps further afield) is something I'm calling (for want of a better name, suggestions welcome) the "intimacy" system. Degrees of intimacy of contact are encoded on the verb by affixes. In Muskogean, its those interesting petrified singular suffixes. In Tunica, final vowels. And so on. In Siouan, of course you have i, a, o (similarly for Chimakuan). And of course Ute has a graded vowel based demonstrative system. In Tunica, verb final vowels are a subset of the total, just i, a, u (and semantically there appear to be two versions of u, one of which may fit the in-system role of shwa). i-final roots have a sense of minimized contact between substrate and trajector, u- maximum, and a- finals are in between. The inside/outside relation is obvious, but subtle. Also please note the vocalic ablaut reconstructed for aspect marking in Salish by Dale Kinkade. English metaphor suggests being "into" a location is somewhat equivalent to being deep in a state, think also of uses of "over", "through", "outa here". Finer points of semantics of "intimacy" terms would be specified by the root itself, and other external marking. So what do the Tuscarora suffixes encode? Jess From rcarter at mato.com Sat Mar 23 23:26:18 2002 From: rcarter at mato.com (Dick Carter) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 16:26:18 -0700 Subject: SCALC 2002 Message-ID: SCALC 2002 Announcement and Call For Papers The 2002 meeting of the Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference will be held at Black Hills State University, in Spearfish, South Dakota, on Friday and Saturday, May 31 and June 1. Those wishing to present papers should submit a title and brief abstract to the convener, Dick Carter, by May 25. (This would be best accomplished by sending the abstract as an e-mail attachment to RichardCarter at bhsu.edu.) This year we will have a "parasession" on Friday morning devoted to papers that test contemporary ideas in linguistic theory against data from Siouan or Caddoan languages -- although papers which incorporate additional data from other language families will also be welcome. Other sessions will welcome papers on any topic concerning Siouan or Caddoan languages. Rooms for conference participants have been reserved at Pangborn Hall, a university dormitory. Those planning to attend the conference and reside in the dormitory should inform the convener by e-mail. Our rooms will be on the first floor. Room costs will be $10.80 per night for double occupancy, $21.60 per night for single occupancy, with an additional 8% in tax. Persons residing on campus are also charged a facilities use fee of $7.50, plus 6% tax. There will also be a nominal registration fee for all participants, to cover the cost of coffee-break refreshments. Those who find dormitory living too Spartan may make their own arrangements at one of the many motels. The following would be good choices: Best Western Downtown 605-642-4676 (about 1/4 mile away) Kelly Inn 605-642-7795 (about a mile away) Holiday Inn 800-999-3541 (not easily walkable) Comfort Inn 605-642-2337 (not easily walkable) Spearfish is located at the northern end of the beautiful Black Hills, and weather at the end of May is ordinarily delightful. For those planning to drive, Spearfish is located on Interstate Hwy. 90 about 45 miles north of Rapid City, South Dakota. Those traveling by air will fly to Rapid City Regional Airport, at which point it would be easiest to rent a car for the (roughly) 60 mile trip to Spearfish. There is much to see in the area: the drive through Spearfish Canyon, a federally designated "Scenic Byway", is especially fine in late spring. For those interested, casino gambling is available in the historic town of Deadwood, 17 miles away. (Supply your own money. And yes, Kevin Costner does give you better odds than the state and national lotteries.) For those staying on campus: dormitory staff will be available for check-in anytime after noon on Thursday, May 30, and will help with checkout from 10 AM - 12 Noon on Sunday, June 2. (Those wishing to leave on Saturday night may do so, of course.) Those needing additional information or assistance should contact Dick Carter at the above e-mail address. He can also be reached by phone at 605-642-6540. See you all in beautiful Spearfish!! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BARudes at aol.com Sun Mar 24 21:39:00 2002 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:39:00 EST Subject: spatial/locational paradigms Message-ID: Jess, Before I answer your immediate question, perhaps some background on the Tuscarora (Northern Iroquoian) suffixes is in order. In each of the Northern Iroquoian language, the vast major of simple nouns consist of a noun root preceded by a noun prefix and followed by a noun suffix. For most nouns, the noun prefixes are either ka-/w- (Wyandot ya-/zero ~m) or o-/aw- (Tuscarora, Wyandot u-/aw-). Pretty much everyone traces the origin of these prefixes to the Proto-Northern Iroquoian neuter singular agent prefixes *ka- / *w- and the neuter singular patient prefixes *yo- / *yaw-. The noun suffix has a variety of forms, none of which has a clear root connection: *-a?, *-ah, *-eh, *-e?, *-i?, *-ih, *-èØ. In a 1985 article (Rudes, B.A. 1985. Reconstructing Word Order in a Polysynthetic Language: from SOV to SVO in Iroquoian. In: J. Fisiak (ed.) Historical Syntax, pp. 201-256. The Hague: Mouton) I argued the structure of nouns in the Northern Iroquoian languages suggested an origin in predicate nominals, and that the various forms of the noun suffix were relics of old verb-aspect marker combinations. In a 1991 presentation at the Iroquois conference, I presented data original gathered by J.N.B. Hewitt in the late 19th century that illustrated the different meanings of the external locative (-kye) when different noun suffixes were present. Here are some of the examples. I leave it to you to determine what is being encoded by the difference in noun suffixes. -a?kye on, on the surface of, on top of -ehkye at, at the place of, in -eN?kye on (as a fixture of), against -(a)haha?kye: uhah'a?kye on the road, path, way -(a)hahehkye: uhah'hkye at the road, at the place of the road -(a)haheN?kye: uhah'eN?kye on or against the road, or stairway -(a)heN?na?kye: uheN?n'a?kye on, on the surface of the meadow -(a)heN?nehkye: uheN?n'ehkye at, in the meadow or grassy plot of ground -(a)heN?neN?kye: uheN?n'eN?kye on or in the meadow as a part of its surface -ci?ehna?kye: uci?ehn'a?kye on, on top of the claw, talon -ci?ehnehkye: uci?ehn'ehkye at, at the place of the claw -ci?ehneN?kye: uci?ehn'eN?kye on (as a fixture of) the claw Blair From Zylogy at aol.com Mon Mar 25 00:15:45 2002 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:15:45 EST Subject: spatial/locational paradigms Message-ID: Going to the library tomorrow anyway, will try to pick up the copy there of Tuscarora Roots.... so I can better see what you're talking about. Maybe get some materials on other languages while I'm at it. Would be very interesting if these affixes were some sort of "intimacy" system. Aspect commonly has spatial antecedents, so the directionality of grammaticalization with regard to nouns versus verbs would be interesting. Is anybody these days doing a full scale grammatical reconstruction for the family? Jess From are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu Mon Mar 25 05:25:22 2002 From: are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu (Ardis R Eschenberg) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 00:25:22 -0500 Subject: A Metaphorical Suggestion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > So, I take it that you argue that akha is unmarked generally, and that ama > specificially marks plurality (when not otherwise marked) and movement > (when noted to invoke a change of scene)? Yes. >I take it that the change of > scene involves all the referents, so that the set of referents (other than > the ama NP) should change, or, in some cases, everybody should be > translated to another location or join another group? The characters that are in motion as the scene changes are marked with ama. Not all characters always shift to the next scene, those are just dropped. New characters may occur at the new scene, these are not marked with ama (except marked plurality). >Also, it sounds as > if, perhaps, a change of scene could occur with ama-marking if there is no > movement (or is novement necessary?). I assume ama-marking of plurality > can occur without a change of scene? Ama marking of plurality can occur without scene shift. Characters (esp. the hero) tend to move from one scene to the next in narrative (even if that movement is rather abstract. For example in English narrative, we don't say the scene now shifts to London or the store or wherever. In oral tales we move the character. So Joe now goes to London or the store of wherever. Even though Joe may have flown or sailed or transmogrified or whatever, we still move him not just the scene. So, ama marking tends to occur couple by a motion verb. I guess a Rip van WInkle story would involve scene shift without motion (just sleep). That would be interesting, but then again maybe not. Only time, not scene would shift. The scene would be different but the same location. I doubt ama would pop up. If the scene changes and no character moves to it, all the characters are new and no ama is involved. Ama is motion to a new scene. > Of course, it's very interesting having plural marking used with the more > marked cases - it's a parallel with plural marking being used (in part) to > code proximateness. I like that ama is the marked member for both cases. But the unmarked member akHa is also proximate. I needed narrative to understand (or at least attempt to understand) this but it helps explain non-narrative contexts as well. Regards, Ardis From BARudes at aol.com Mon Mar 25 13:01:18 2002 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:01:18 EST Subject: spatial/locational paradigms Message-ID: Jess, Rather than Tuscarora Roots ..., my 1987 lexicon, you would do better looking through my 1999 Tuscarora-English/English-Tuscarora Dictionary (University of Toronto Press). It contains all of the examples from J.N.B. Hewitt. Blair From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Mon Mar 25 13:12:20 2002 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 13:12:20 -0000 Subject: Lakota dictionary. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Siouanists Please excuse me doing this self promotion, but I know how frustrating it is sometimes trying to get books from abroad. The publishers tell me that up till the end of May , the dictionary can be purchased as follows: The English-Lakota Dictionary is distributed in the US by Independent Publishers Group. They can be contacted on frontdesk at ipgbook.com or tel. 1 800 888 4741 or 312 337 0747 and you should be able to order a copy directly from them. After that date there will be another distributor. Bruce On 22 Mar 2002, at 17:37, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > Those in the U.S. who might wish to order Bruce Ingham's Lakota dictionary > may do so from Amazon.com in the UK. Their American web site wouldn't give > me any price for it, but the UK site did. It comes to around 45 English > pounds, and with shipping, close to 50. > > Bob Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From m.mixco at m.cc.utah.edu Mon Mar 25 15:07:16 2002 From: m.mixco at m.cc.utah.edu (Mauricio Mixco) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 07:07:16 -0800 Subject: SCALC 2002 In-Reply-To: <000a01c1d2c2$3bbfd2c0$929ff0c7@rcarter> Message-ID: no message from you on my screen-- sorry M From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 25 15:56:18 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:56:18 -0700 Subject: SCALC 2002 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I take Mauricio's message to mean that his mail system was unable to render the message properly, so I'll repost it. I got a warning about character sets myself. Let's see if this works. ==== SCALC 2002 Announcement and Call For Papers The 2002 meeting of the Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference will be held at Black Hills State University, in Spearfish, South Dakota, on Friday and Saturday, May 31 and June 1. Those wishing to present papers should submit a title and brief abstract to the convener, Dick Carter, by May 25. (This would be best accomplished by sending the abstract as an e-mail attachment to RichardCarter at bhsu.edu.) This year we will have a "parasession" on Friday morning devoted to papers that test contemporary ideas in linguistic theory against data from Siouan or Caddoan languages -- although papers which incorporate additional data from other language families will also be welcome. Other sessions will welcome papers on any topic concerning Siouan or Caddoan languages. Rooms for conference participants have been reserved at Pangborn Hall, a university dormitory. Those planning to attend the conference and reside in the dormitory should inform the convener by e-mail. Our rooms will be on the first floor. Room costs will be $10.80 per night for double occupancy, $21.60 per night for single occupancy, with an additional 8% in tax. Persons residing on campus are also charged a facilities use fee of $7.50, plus 6% tax. There will also be a nominal registration fee for all participants, to cover the cost of coffee-break refreshments. Those who find dormitory living too Spartan may make their own arrangements at one of the many motels. The following would be good choices: Best Western Downtown 605-642-4676 (about 1/4 mile away) Kelly Inn 605-642-7795 (about a mile away) Holiday Inn 800-999-3541 (not easily walkable) Comfort Inn 605-642-2337 (not easily walkable) Spearfish is located at the northern end of the beautiful Black Hills, and weather at the end of May is ordinarily delightful. For those planning to drive, Spearfish is located on Interstate Hwy. 90 about 45 miles north of Rapid City, South Dakota. Those traveling by air will fly to Rapid City Regional Airport, at which point it would be easiest to rent a car for the (roughly) 60 mile trip to Spearfish. There is much to see in the area: the drive through Spearfish Canyon, a federally designated "Scenic Byway", is especially fine in late spring. For those interested, casino gambling is available in the historic town of Deadwood, 17 miles away. (Supply your own money. And yes, Kevin Costner does give you better odds than the state and national lotteries.) For those staying on campus: dormitory staff will be available for check-in anytime after noon on Thursday, May 30, and will help with checkout from 10 AM - 12 Noon on Sunday, June 2. (Those wishing to leave on Saturday night may do so, of course.) Those needing additional information or assistance should contact Dick Carter at the above e-mail address. He can also be reached by phone at 605-642-6540. See you all in beautiful Spearfish!! From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 25 16:00:50 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:00:50 -0700 Subject: Character Set Problems In-Reply-To: <000a01c1d2c2$3bbfd2c0$929ff0c7@rcarter> Message-ID: The message I see, incidentally, reads: --- The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set. Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set. Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. --- I take this to mean that that the message was composed in a Unix character set (more typical these days of University users who telnet or dial in to a Unix server) and is being displayed in a Windows environment. Generally problems would only arise in regard to characters out of the range 000-127. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 25 16:45:06 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:45:06 -0700 Subject: A Metaphorical Suggestion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ardis, thanks very much for taking the time to elaborate on your scheme for me! I know you must be pretty busy. On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, Ardis R Eschenberg wrote: > The characters that are in motion as the scene changes are marked with > ama. Not all characters always shift to the next scene, those are > just dropped. New characters may occur at the new scene, these are > not marked with ama (except marked plurality). So, it's not just the presence of one non-plural ama that marks the transition of the scene, but ama specifically marks the references that transit to the next scene. > > Also, it sounds as > > if, perhaps, a change of scene could occur with ama-marking if there is no > > movement (or is novement necessary?). I made a mistake in wording here - I meant to ask if a change of scene can occur "with*out* ama-marking if there is no movement ...?" > > I assume ama-marking of plurality can occur without a change of scene? > Ama marking of plurality can occur without scene shift. Naturally, the language works the way it works, but I wonder about the independent behavior of the two ama articles. A given situation usually reflects in some way its origins, but here the motion ama behaves quite differently from the plurality ama. This might suggest that they're actually of separate origin, though they are certainly homophonous. But if they're independent in behavior (and possibly origin), you might not need to worry about linking them in terms of markedness. Thinking about it, I'd say that they would be more likely to be linked by something like vagueness or lack of focus. This is somewhat contrary to my instinct that references transiting to a new scene might be relatively more important and - excuse the word - focussed upon, but perhaps they are really "departing" or "arriving" and so less, uh, focussed upon. > just the scene. So, ama marking tends to occur couple by a motion > verb. I guess a Rip van Winkle story would involve scene shift > without motion (just sleep). I seem to recall some possibly analogous situations in some of the Buffalo woman stories - the hero awakes and all trace of her is gone. > That would be interesting, but then again maybe not. Only time, not > scene would shift. The scene would be different but the same location. > I doubt ama would pop up. This may perhaps answer my question about motionless scene changes. It would be nice if there were some additional markers of scene changes. From shanwest at uvic.ca Sat Mar 30 20:58:21 2002 From: shanwest at uvic.ca (Shannon West) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 12:58:21 -0800 Subject: FW: UG abandoned by Chomsky ? Message-ID: > >In an interesting review article John Searle applauds Noam Chomsky's abandonment of the notion of universal grammar and implicit acknowledgement that his linguistic revolution has not succeeded. > The article is in the 28Feb02 issue of the _New York Review > of Books_ (pp. 33-36. It is a review of Chomsky's _New Horizons in the Study of Language and the Mind_ (Cambridge U Press, 230pp., $60, $20 paper). Gah! So now I'm going to have to buy this book, which violates my "Avoid Chomsky" principle. (I deal better with those who translate Chomsky's work into something I can understand. ) I think I'm going to curl up into a fetal ball and shake now, for surely there is freezing rain in hell. ;) Shannon From Zylogy at aol.com Sat Mar 30 21:17:03 2002 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 16:17:03 EST Subject: Gah, Chomsky! Message-ID: Heck, as I write, Noam (I can call you Noam, can't I?) is talking about the origin and evolution of language and grammar at a major conference on the topic finishing up today at Haaaavard. Who woulda thunk it just a few years ago. I guess in the end all radical positions fall before the glistening axe of centralism. Snick! Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com From rankin at ku.edu Sat Mar 30 22:01:23 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 16:01:23 -0600 Subject: Dhegiha stuff. Message-ID: I was going through the La Flesche Osage dictionary and ran across the entry "thoN-dsi" /dhaN ci/ 'at the', a locative classifier. There are examples of the sort: haNpa íhtaxe ðaN-ci 'At the break of day.' (p. 64) day its.tip the.sitting-LOC zaNcé $e-ðaN-ci 'at yonder forest' (p. 153) forest that-the.sitting-LOC The entry and accompanying examples are interesting because they suggest that the old inanimate-sitting article, dhaN, has been retained in Osage in the locative classifiers, even though it has been replaced by the animate-sitting dhiNk$e when it occurs as a simple article. La Flesche's transcription mirrors real Osage here, so I'm wondering if the use of dhaN is real or if, perhaps, he inadvertently substituted the Omaha-Ponca article (which we've always thought no longer existed in Osage). I haven't been able to find any instances of the dhaN particle in Carolyn's dissertation yet. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Mar 1 16:23:52 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:23:52 -0700 Subject: A Mysterious Morpheme *hi(N) Message-ID: Last night while trying to provide a good explanation of why Winnebago kaNnaNk' 'to marry' would be more likely to be underlyingly |kraNk| than |knak|, I noticed that Winnebago 'husband' is hikaNnaN'. My initial impression was that hi was just the usual Winnebago reflex of Px3 *i 'his/her' (probably 'her' here!). But I also noticed that Ioway-Otoe has hiNgra ~ igraN and that Teton has higna. So it looks like the initial morpheme here is *hi(N). HuN? From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Mar 1 16:29:06 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:29:06 -0700 Subject: *-ka Message-ID: While I'm on the subject of marriage, while husband is usually a reflex of *hi(N)kraN, 'to marry (of a man)' is usually *kraN-ka, cf. Winnebago kaNkaNk, Ioway-Otoe graNge, Omaha-Ponca egdhaNge 'husband' and Teton hignaka (apparently also 'husband'). So these forms offer a fairly widespread example of X :: X-ka. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Mar 1 16:34:07 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:34:07 -0700 Subject: Winnebago -ga in Kinterms Message-ID: I've noticed before that certain Winnebago nouns take an appended -ga. For example, was^c^iNiNk' 'rabbit', but was^c^iNge'ga 'the Rabbit'. (I think I've remembered the actual noun correctly.) Notice that the final -e lost historically resurfaces in this form. It seems to me that the noun for '(agency) store-keeper' also has such a -ga. A number of kin terms also take -ga in various contexts. I was wondering if this might not account for deega 'uncle' vs. Teton lek(s^i) or Omaha-Ponca negi. That is, deega is deek + ga? From napsha51 at aol.com Fri Mar 1 22:23:10 2002 From: napsha51 at aol.com (napsha51 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 17:23:10 EST Subject: A Mysterious Morpheme *hi(N) Message-ID: John, In Lakxota we say, hingnaku, hingnatxun, Violet From napsha51 at aol.com Fri Mar 1 22:25:45 2002 From: napsha51 at aol.com (napsha51 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 17:25:45 EST Subject: Winnebago -ga in Kinterms Message-ID: John, My Hochunk teacher, Zena Reeves taught me to say, washcinga for rabbit, It is one of the languages I teach here. Violet From rlundy at huntel.net Sat Mar 2 16:18:53 2002 From: rlundy at huntel.net (rlundy at huntel.net) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 10:18:53 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: ---- Original Message ---- From: napsha51 at aol.com To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu, Subject: Re: Winnebago -ga in Kinterms Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 17:25:45 EST >John, >My Hochunk teacher, Zena Reeves taught me to say, washcinga for >rabbit, >It is one of the languages I teach here. >Violet >Violet, My name is Richard Lundy. I'm a regular reader and an occassional contributor to this conversation. You appear to be a Lakhota and a speaker. Where do you teach, etc. I'm a tribal college instructor at NICC in Macy and Santee and come from CRST. Please let me know who you are and where you come from. Thank you. Richard, rlundy at huntel.net New WebMail from HunTel.net From napsha51 at aol.com Sat Mar 2 16:42:18 2002 From: napsha51 at aol.com (napsha51 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 11:42:18 EST Subject: No subject Message-ID: Yes, I will be happy to do this, I am Violet Catches, a Lakxota woman, I teach at the Pierre Indian Learning Center, in Pierre SD, I came to your college as a guest to one of Zeena's classes. She was our contact person for Hocak, as you spell it there, I use my preference, Hochunk, which is how we say it. And I teach Omaha. All of these are concepts, like colors, time, numbers, money. Well, after I wrote in the soiuan lists, i was thinking about the words, i have to go back and look because i think, there is a t somewhere, I have it written down. Her assistant use to write to me, but I haven't heard from her after she wrote telling me of Zeena's passing. She was usually there, helping, and she recorded the numbers for me, I wonder why I cannot think of her name! I am 52, so forgetful. I will think of her name as soon as I send you this e mail. Violet From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Mar 3 00:17:32 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 17:17:32 -0700 Subject: Winnebago -ga in Kinterms In-Reply-To: <134.a356667.29b159e9@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Mar 2002 Violet (napsha51 at aol.com) wrote: > My Hochunk teacher, Zena Reeves taught me to say, washcinga for > rabbit, It is one of the languages I teach here. Greetings, Violet! That's an interesting variation in the form. My reference was the form as given in Ken Miner's Winnebago Field Lexicon. He lists was^c^iNk' 'rabbit' (I think I put in a spurious long vowel before), also was^c^iNgra' 'Wisconsin Rapids (mispronounced as "rabbits")' (literally, 'the rabbit(s)'), was^c^iNkxe'te 'jackrabbit' (literally, 'big rabbit'), and was^c^iNge'ga 'Hare'. Since this last is capitalized, I assume it's a reference to the character called 'the Rabbit' in Omaha folktales. Given the variation you were taught, I've gone back and also checked Marino's dissertation A Dictionary of Winnebago: an analysis and reference grammar of the Radin Lexical File. It gives wacdjiNk 'hare', and wacdjiNge 'hare', and also wacdjiNk puntc 'wintergreen (hare's nose)'. The cdj is just Radin's version of s^c^ (or shc). It would be very interesting to know if Zeena Reeves had any other nouns with -ka, corresponding to other cases of -k or otherwise! Given the Radin citation was^c^iNge, I wonder if it has had -ga removed by analysis (a tendency in Radin's materials, I think), or if it's based on an occurrence of wacdjiNge in isolation. If it does occur in isolation, then we'd have attestations of was^c^iNk ~ was^c^iNge ~ was^c^iNga. The form for 'storekeeper' (glossed 'merchant') in Miner is wooru'wiNga'. Compare 'store', which is wooru'wiNc^i'. The basic stem here is ruwiN' 'to buy' (like Omaha-Ponca dhiwiN'). There's also waaru'wiNga' 'Trader (name used for whoever was the trader at the time)'. Lipkind's discussion of possession with kinterms (p. 31) says that all kinterms with the prefix hi (fossilizd Px3 *i-) have first person posssesives in following hara, and the few terms without it take ga for the first person. His examples are naNniN'=ga 'my mother', c^uwiN'=ga 'my father's sister', but hisuNk'=hara 'my younger brother', hinuN'=hara 'my elder sister', hiaN'jiN=hiwi'ra 'our (inclusive) father'. I've spelled these in something like modern standard linguist's spelling, but I haven't tried to fix vowel length. Apart from the first persons, it appears that the second persons are always raga singular, and rawi'ga plural, and there is a variation of hira with ra in the third person. The first part of hara, haga, hira, etc., is the inflected causative. Winnebago generalizes the causative possessive construction with kin terms. Possession of living forms also uses the causative, but with niN 'living' inserted, e.g, s^uNg(a)=niN=ha'ra 'my dog'. The parenthesized (a) is a schwa in the original, and I'm not sure it isn't actually just a non-vocalic transition between s^uNuNk 'dog' and niN. The second person of this paradigm is niN=r~a'ra ~ niN=r~a'ga singular and niN=r~awira ~ niN=r~a(w)iga plural. The conditioning for ra vs. ga in these cases is not given, and no examples with ga are given. It appears, though, that -ra is OK with 'duck', as in wiNg(a)=niN=r~awira 'you(r) (all's) duck'. The r~ here is the n' (Lipkind) or n^ (Miner) that represents the nasalized r (almost n) that occurs for r after a nasal vowel. To get the paradigm for 'uncle' (actually, of course, 'mother's brother') I had to go to Lesser's dissertaiton, which gives: hidek'hara 'my uncle', hidek'raga 'your uncle', hidek'ra 'his uncle' These forms were taken from Frank Beaver at Winnebago City (= Winnebago), NE, in 1928, and match Radin's forms (which I haven't seen). Beaver also offered dega'ga 'my uncle', with a vocative dega'. JEK From jggoodtracks at juno.com Sat Mar 2 23:08:03 2002 From: jggoodtracks at juno.com (Jimm G GoodTracks) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 17:08:03 -0600 Subject: Winnebago -ga in Kinterms Message-ID: I've noticed that in all, if not most of the W. Clan names, they end in -ga. I've wondered about it. JGT On Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:34:07 -0700 (MST) Koontz John E writes: > I've noticed before that certain Winnebago nouns take an appended > -ga. > For example, was^c^iNiNk' 'rabbit', but was^c^iNge'ga 'the Rabbit'. > (I > think I've remembered the actual noun correctly.) Notice that the > final > -e lost historically resurfaces in this form. It seems to me that > the > noun for '(agency) store-keeper' also has such a -ga. > > A number of kin terms also take -ga in various contexts. I was > wondering > if this might not account for deega 'uncle' vs. Teton lek(s^i) or > Omaha-Ponca negi. That is, deega is deek + ga? > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Mar 3 07:13:19 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 00:13:19 -0700 Subject: A Mysterious Morpheme *hi(N) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > In Lakxota we say, hingnaku, hingnatxun, > Violet My source was Buechel, but I reproduced it from memory. Buechel has higna' 'a husband' (identified as n. obs in the English side - which may mean that he found it in Riggs, but couldn't get anyone he knew to accept it), with the possessed forms given as mihigna, nihigna, hignaka (a misprint for hugnaku, think). Higna'ku 'her husband' is also listed as a headword. Higna't[h]uN (actually listed with oN in the usual way for Buechel) (Violet's hingnatxun in her orthography) is given as 'to have a husband'. Riggs has hihna 'a husband', hihnaku 'her husband', and also hihnat[h]uN 'to have a husband, be married' (I suspect Violet was thinking of a definition in this form). He also lists higna (including hignaku) as Teton forms. Williams just givesn hihnaku. I'd swear I've seen the nasalized variant Violet cites somewhere, too, but I can't relocate it at the moment, which puzzles me, because I don't have that many possible references! However, since I've got Lesser out, I checked it, too, and he gives it, though I hadn't checked the form there the other night. In fact, he gives hiNgnaku (Teton), hiNknaku (Yankton), hiNknaNgu (Assiniboine), all nasalized, and only hihnaku (Santee), unnasalized. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Mar 3 07:48:01 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 00:48:01 -0700 Subject: Winnebago -ga in Kinterms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Mar 2002, Koontz John E wrote: > Lipkind's discussion of possession with kinterms (p. 31) says that all > kinterms with the prefix hi (fossilizd Px3 *i-) have first person > posssesives in following hara, and the few terms without it take ga for > the first person. ... I've also noticed in Lipkind, p. 50, "When referring to individuals by kinship term or to animal characters in tales, this suffix (-ga) is added as a mark of respect. It is never used in address." (Oops, it looks like this has been noticed in print before!) Ex. j^aj^i'=ga 'father', ku'nuN=ga 'proper name for eldest son' (cf. OP (iN)gdhaN), maNcos^u'c^ka 'Red-Grizzley-Bear' (a surname), kec^aN'gega 'turtle' (tale character). The last of these, 'big turtle' (= snapping turtle?) seems to be another case of -e- appearing before -ga, since this is keecaNk' in Miner. I've also looked at kinship terms further in Lesser, and it appears that it might be more accurate to say that when -ga is used with first persons hi- is omitted, not the same as it being used when the term lacks hi-. Specifically, all first persons are given with -(h)ara, including hiuni=hara 'my mother' and hic^uNwiN=hara 'my father's sister'. However, the stem na(N)ni(N) 'mother' is listed as the vocative, and na(N)ni(N)=ga is given as an alternaive to hiuni=raga for 'your mother'. C^uNwiN=ga is given as an alternative to hic^uNwiN=hara 'my mother'. Also, dodo=ka is given as the vocative of hic^ido=ra 'her elder brother'. It's not clear if we're dealing with regional and personal variation, regularization of an originally more irregular system, or a system somewhat more complex than the reporters realized, which is (or was?) perhaps being frozen in a somewhat irregular or variable form. JEK From napsha51 at aol.com Sun Mar 3 14:46:32 2002 From: napsha51 at aol.com (napsha51 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 09:46:32 EST Subject: Winnebago -ga in Kinterms Message-ID: John, Yes, you are right, it was washcink and washcinge, she taught me some other words for rabbit. I have to look in my notes for other nouns that have the ga or ge ending, but its really not my place to share that kind of info, as a Native American. There are Winnebago's and that is their right. Violet From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 4 19:34:07 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 12:34:07 -0700 Subject: A Mysterious Morpheme *hi(N) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Mar 2002, Koontz John E wrote: > ... with the possessed forms given as mihigna, nihigna, hignaka (a > misprint for hugnaku, think). .. Sorry, I meant hignaku! From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 4 19:54:50 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 12:54:50 -0700 Subject: Winnebago Nominal Ablaut (Re: Winnebago -ga in Kinterms) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Mar 2002, Koontz John E wrote: > The last of these, 'big turtle' (= snapping turtle?) seems to be another > case of -e- appearing before -ga, since this is keecaNk' in Miner. So, as far as I can see there are now two examples, perhaps fossilized, of 0 / elsewhere ~ e / __ ga with Winnebago nouns in -k, kec^aNk and was^c^iNk. It might work better syncronically to treat this as ga / elsewhere ~ ega / k __. It's a sort of left-handed nominal ablaut, in the sense that Dakotan nominal ablaut essentially involves a ~ e ~ 0, though with well-developed e ~ 0, a ~ 0, a ~ e, and a ~ e ~ 0 subcases. Also, while Dakotan has the 0-alternant in compounds and reduplication, Winnebago has it as the unmarked (uncompounded) form. The occurrence of -e- in these contexts is not at all surprising as Winnebago (by comparison with Ioway-Otoe) seems to lose final -e after C (but not CC), as in naNaNc^ge' 'heart'. In essence the =ga forms an environment in which this loss of e is prevented. For example, compare Omaha-Ponca mas^tiNge ~ mas^c^iNge (in many of the JOD texts) 'rabbit' and kke( )ttaNga 'big turtle'. The latter has -ga < *-ka), but it appears that in Winnebago (and Ioway-Otoe) *a > e after any velar obstruent. This is one reason I was interested in Winnebago deega' 'uncle'. The ga looked irregular. So, I was happy to be (probably) able to reduce it to the usual exception for =ga. JEK From Rgraczyk at aol.com Tue Mar 5 21:21:17 2002 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Randolph Graczyk) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 16:21:17 EST Subject: instrumental *daka- Message-ID: In his paper "A diachronic perspective on active/stative alignment in Siouan, Bob Rankin wrote: "Dakotan has innovated a great many statively-marked verbs with the ka- 'by striking' instrumental prefix (Xmelnitsky, Siouan e-list), but comparative evidence makes it highly unlikely that stative verbs in Proto-Siouan could take any instrumental prefix except *Ra 'by heat' (which is typically stative). Other instrumentals always seem to have the effect of raising the "activity" level of the verb, i.e., they make the verb active or transitive." (p. 13) Crow has a fairly extensive set of stative verbs with the dak- prefix, which is cognate with Dakotan ka-. The following is a sampling: dakka'hpi 'blown away by the wind', dakku'c^i 'swing, wave', daksaks^i' 'fit into', daks^i'pi 'slow (animate)', daku'xs^i 'quick, frisky, energetic' (Hi nako'xti 'light in weight'), dappi'axi 'light in weight', dappi'c^i' soaked', dappu's^i 'swollen', das^s^ipi' 'cave in, sink in, collapse', das^s^ua' 'bent, dented' (Hi naks^ua 'dent'), dac^c^eepi' 'penetrate, go inside the body', dac^c^ic^i' 'winded, exhausted', daxc^i' 'choke, gag' (Hi na'ks^i 'choke'). (Note that in Crow the k of the dak- prefix often assimilates to the following obstruent.) Boas and Deloria (p. 46-48) give lists of stative verbs with the ka- prefix, both those that occur only as statives, and another set that may be used as both actives and statives. B and D note that verbs with the ka- prefix often express action 'by the wind, current, or other natural forces'. Several of the Crow verbs have this type of meaning. Also, there is at least one Crow form that can occur both actively and statively: daxc^i' 'tie, tie up, imprison' (active); 'choke, gag' (stative). A derived form of this stem is a'ap-daxc^i 'hang (execute)' (active); 'hang by the neck' (stative). I suspect that there may be a few more that can be used both actively and statively, but I need to check. It seems unlikely to me that both Dakotan and Missouri River Siouan would have independently innovated in such similar ways. I would suggest that the stative usage of *daka- may go back to Proto-Siouan. It would be nice to have some corroboration from other branches of the family, but I don't know if there is any. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Mar 6 16:34:21 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 10:34:21 -0600 Subject: instrumental *daka- Message-ID: Thanks for the helpful comments and data. I'm still revising this paper and will probably do a version of it for the SSILA meeting next Jan. I must say I've always had a problem interpreting verb classes using the available Dakotan materials. The Buechel dictionary (1970) lists each verb as being v.a. (active) or v.n. (neutral). The problem is that I suspect B. was using a semantic rather than a purely morphological definition of "neutral", and not every entry has a first person example. It seems clear though that the *raka- verbs deserve more attention in this regard though. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Rgraczyk at aol.com [mailto:Rgraczyk at aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 3:21 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: instrumental *daka- In his paper "A diachronic perspective on active/stative alignment in Siouan, Bob Rankin wrote: "Dakotan has innovated a great many statively-marked verbs with the ka- 'by striking' instrumental prefix (Xmelnitsky, Siouan e-list), but comparative evidence makes it highly unlikely that stative verbs in Proto-Siouan could take any instrumental prefix except *Ra 'by heat' (which is typically stative). Other instrumentals always seem to have the effect of raising the "activity" level of the verb, i.e., they make the verb active or transitive." (p. 13) Crow has a fairly extensive set of stative verbs with the dak- prefix, which is cognate with Dakotan ka-. The following is a sampling: dakka'hpi 'blown away by the wind', dakku'c^i 'swing, wave', daksaks^i' 'fit into', daks^i'pi 'slow (animate)', daku'xs^i 'quick, frisky, energetic' (Hi nako'xti 'light in weight'), dappi'axi 'light in weight', dappi'c^i' soaked', dappu's^i 'swollen', das^s^ipi' 'cave in, sink in, collapse', das^s^ua' 'bent, dented' (Hi naks^ua 'dent'), dac^c^eepi' 'penetrate, go inside the body', dac^c^ic^i' 'winded, exhausted', daxc^i' 'choke, gag' (Hi na'ks^i 'choke'). (Note that in Crow the k of the dak- prefix often assimilates to the following obstruent.) Boas and Deloria (p. 46-48) give lists of stative verbs with the ka- prefix, both those that occur only as statives, and another set that may be used as both actives and statives. B and D note that verbs with the ka- prefix often express action 'by the wind, current, or other natural forces'. Several of the Crow verbs have this type of meaning. Also, there is at least one Crow form that can occur both actively and statively: daxc^i' 'tie, tie up, imprison' (active); 'choke, gag' (stative). A derived form of this stem is a'ap-daxc^i 'hang (execute)' (active); 'hang by the neck' (stative). I suspect that there may be a few more that can be used both actively and statively, but I need to check. It seems unlikely to me that both Dakotan and Missouri River Siouan would have independently innovated in such similar ways. I would suggest that the stative usage of *daka- may go back to Proto-Siouan. It would be nice to have some corroboration from other branches of the family, but I don't know if there is any. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sun Mar 17 19:01:42 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 13:01:42 -0600 Subject: Dhegihanists. Message-ID: I've been working thru the paper by Barron and Serzisko on Siouan positionals and Ponca article use. They cite two sentences from JOD 1890:466.7 and 467.3. Ki te-nuga ama waji-pibaji and buffalo bull the [moving] was savage And the buffalo bull was savage. Waji-pibaji te-nuga aka was savage Buffalo bull the [not in motion] The buffalo bull was savage. Is this your reading of the above sentences? Is buffalo bull singular or plural here? Is the article difference due to motion, number or something else? B&S did a good job of finding some interesting examples in Dorsey, but they don't always analyze them correctly and they confuse homophones [thaN] 'article' and 'postposition from' along with [the] 'article' and 'evidential' (and sometimes [tte] 'irrealis'). Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 18 05:51:56 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 22:51:56 -0700 Subject: Dhegihanists. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Mar 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I've been working thru the paper by Barron and Serzisko on Siouan > positionals and Ponca article use. They cite two sentences from JOD > 1890:466.7 and 467.3. > > Ki te-nuga ama waji-pibaji > and buffalo bull the [moving] was savage > And the buffalo bull was savage. > > Waji-pibaji te-nuga aka > was savage Buffalo bull the [not in motion] > The buffalo bull was savage. > > Is this your reading of the above sentences? Is buffalo bull singular or > plural here? Is the article difference due to motion, number or something > else? In what follows I raise more questions than I (don't actually) answer. Anyway, these are the glosses Dorsey gives, and I think nobody, B&S included, has gotten much beyond them. There's been a certain amount of uncertainty about them recently, of course. Superficially, this pair looks like a paradigm case of akha 'the motionless subject' vs. ama 'the moving/plural subject' (in the moving case). The text makes it clear that the context is that a man is pursuing a bull, which is acting agressive. [Frank LaFlesche is narrating the story, "My First Buffalo Hunt." His father has refused him permission to participate. He's angry at his father and the two of them are watching the progress of the hunt together from a hill. His father is talking to him, but he is silent and sulking.] E'gidhe tte-nu'ga wiN tti'= atta=dhishaN at length bull a tent(s) to tending * e'gidhe marks clauses that seem to have anticipatable content * dhishaN 'pulling' indicates approach adhiN' agi'=i nikkas^iNga akha wiNa'=xc^i akha. having it he was coming back man the one just the * adhiN 'to have' + motion verb is a transitivizing construction for motion verbs, indicating accompaniment or pursuit. * I hear wiNaxc^i as wiaNxti in modern Omaha. It appears that -a- here is a special case of the linking -a- that appears above in tti=atta= < tti + tta. Kki ttenu'ga *ama* waz^iN'=ppi=b=az^i. and then bull the mind was bad * I think Ardis told me that "Ki" is actually khi, not kki. I have been associating it with kki 'if, when'. * Notice the stress on ttenu'ga (like pteblo'ka), though I would expect *tte'nuga given the way compound stress usually works. I have no idea why this pattern occurs with tte-. Ni'kkas^iNga dhiNkhe ie'naghi=dha= hnaN=i man the (sitting, object) he attacked him regularly [At this point, Frank LaFlesche's father tells him he can go help. He grabs an apparently unexpectedly light gun and lassos an apparently unexpectedly tall horse and sets off.] Bdhi'ze gaN e'=di bdhe'. I took it (the gun) and so there I went * This is perhaps two sentences? GaN 'thus' is usually a sentence introducer, but can sometimes occur en lieu of egaN, perhaps this is bdhi'z e=gaN 'having taken it'? This gets into the sill unresolved issue of whether there are one or two egaN particles. E'=di phi'= kki=z^i, there I arrived when ttenu'ga *akha* s^kaN=az^i naz^iN *akha*. bull the not moving he stood PROGR * The bull is explicitly standing still. Notice the concordial use of akha in the progressive auxililary slot. * Notice the =z^i (apparently not NEG) on =kki 'if' in this context. Except I'm not sure what the context is! Kki ni'kkas^iNga akha e'=di phi' kki, And then man the there I arrived when gi'dhe=xti=aN=bi a=i. he was really happy he said Waz^iN'=ppi=b=az^i ttenu'ga *akha*. mind was bad bull the * The bull is still akha-marked. [At this point the hunter wounds the bull with an arrow. It charges them, Frank's horse throws him and heads home, and the bull runs off, to0. Frank arrives back at the tend to find his mother scolding his father. His father is laughing. He asks Frank if he killed the bull.] Notice that the bull is obviously moving when ama is applied to it, and explicitly standing still when akha is applied to it. But there are various problems. For one thing, the man chasing the bull is introduced with akha, though he is presumably moving, too. For that matter, why is a definite article applied to the man? This is the first mention of him, and Dorsey's texts translates ni'kkas^iNga akha wiNa=xc^i akha as 'one man'. We should probably guess that his identity is actually known, perhaps even to Dorsey, most likely to the LaFlesche family, within which the story had no doubt circulated for years. Frank hasn't bothered to identify him in the fragment, but he is 'the fellow we know' for all practical purposes because of the longer narrative or family background from which the story is abstracted. I suppose this sequence could also support an intepretation of akha as 'more intimate, better known, closer' and ama as 'less intimate, less well known, further off', a proposal (in my paraphrase) offered by Carolyn Quintero at the Niskidhe Dhegiha meeting, I think, based on her perception of the pattern in Osage. The article akha is applied in the same text to 'my father' and 'my mother'. The bull is definite, but starts as ama and perhaps only shifts to akha as it becomes more central to the text? In effect, akha is really proximate (on stage), and ama is only sort of proximate (on stage). I think this is worth investigating, but I don't know if it holds water at this point. There is an obviative (off stage) clause toward the end of the text: Akhi'=kki, I arrived home when iN'naNha akha iNda'di i'husa akha kki, my mother the my father she was scolding him the (PROGR) when akhi'. I arrived home S^aN'ge thaN maN'zedhahe udha'ha khi= the=di, horse the (OBV) bridle stuck on it he arrived back (OBV) when i'bahaN=i the aN'aNdh idhe'=dha=i the. she knew EVID it threw me SUDDENLY EVID When I got back my mother was scolding my father. When the horse got back with its bridle hanging she knew [what had happened] (it seemed). It had thrown me (it seemed). * The word for bridle is maN'ze 'iron' + dhahe, which is the root of the stem udha'ha 'to adhere, be stuck on' tha follows, I think. * I think that the pattern of clauses in the first sentence, with 'When I got home, when my mother was scolding my father, I got home' is probably just a misspeaking, but I'm in no position to say. * I assume that the 'it threw me' clause at the end is a sort of repair, to clarify what it was that his mother had realized. I would normally expect the opposite order of clauses in general terms, though I don't know if one can actually say something like ? aNaNdha idhe'=dha=i (the(=di)) i'bahaN=i=the it threw me SUDDENLY (when) she knew it EVID Notice that as this sentence already shows, an evidential or perfective *the*, especially if followed by =di LOCATIVE, is rendered 'when' with a subordinate clause. Notice that this text is also rife with final-position subjects. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 19 05:52:16 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 22:52:16 -0700 Subject: A Metaphorical Suggestion Message-ID: Many Siouanists may know that Ardis Eschenberg has been able to make progress with understanding Omaha-Ponca obviation by restating the proximate/obviative distinction in terms of on-stage/off-stage. She observes in particular that there is no limit on the number of proximate references, and that this is more consistent with the staging metaphor. It has occurred to me to wonder if the akha : ama distinction might be relatable to this metaphor by considering ama as tantamount to a stage direction of 'enter X' or 'exit/exeunt X', while akha refers to a reference which is currently on stage. Dhegihanists will recall that Omaha intuitions as to what explained obviative subjects - as reported by Dorsey - were in terms of incidental factors. Obviative subjects were characterized as being out of sight or acting for others: in short "off stage." Perhaps explanations like 'moving' and 'plural' (numerous, non-individuated) are similar ways of characterizing maginality or transition with respect to staging? I haven't any evidence to support this hypothesis at present. At best it is consistent with some tentative suggestions of Carolyn Quintero relative to Osage (a)kxa : (a)pa. It's probably a little too convenient (for my own good). At any rate, it should be fairly easy to test from texts, which is convenient for me. JEK From jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu Tue Mar 19 15:26:58 2002 From: jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu (John Boyle) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:26:58 -0600 Subject: 2003 Meeting Message-ID: Dear All, Last year at the Siouan and Caddoan languages conference (SACLC) we tossed around the idea of having the 2003 meeting in conjunction with the 2003 LSA Institute at the University of Michigan. The Institute dates run from June 30 - August 8. I am writing to see if people still want to do the SACLC in conjunction with the summer Institute? If so we need to choose a weekend for the conference (we can't have in Monday - Thursday). Also the first weekend of the Institute is the weekend of the 4th of July, so that probably wouldn't be a good time and the weekend of July 18 - 20 the Committee on the Status of Women in Linguistics is meeting. The possible weekend dates for the conference are as follows: July 4 - 6 July 11 - 13 July 18 - 20 July 25 - 27 Aug. 1 - 3 Aug. 8 - 10 In addition, could people also comment on the following: 1) We need to have an estimate of the number of participants (so we can reserve an appropriate size room). I am going to estimate the the number of participants to be approximately 30. Does this seem right? 2) What king of AV equipment will people need? 3) Do we want to have the conference advertised generally during the Institute? 4) Do we want the conference to appear in the Institute brochure? I assume that the answers to questions 3 & 4 are' yes', but I wanted to check with everyone. If people could either respond to the list if there is something that needs to be addressed by everyone (possible dates) or to me personally at about anything else, I'd appreciate it. We need to get this resolved in the next two or three weeks so we can get our spot reserved if we decide to have the conference in conjunction with the institute. Thanks, John P. Boyle Department of Linguistics University of Chicago From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Tue Mar 19 16:11:58 2002 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:11:58 -0700 Subject: 2003 Meeting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, John, for assembling this information. Personally, I always find meeting with the Institute to be stimulating and worthwhile, both because we get people in our sessions who would not normally come, and because there's so much else going on at the same time that we can sometimes take advantage of. I would vote for one of the July weekends rather than one in August, and particularly prefer the 11th or the 18th. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Tue, 19 Mar 2002, John Boyle wrote: > Dear All, > > Last year at the Siouan and Caddoan languages conference (SACLC) we > tossed around the idea of having the 2003 meeting in conjunction with > the 2003 LSA Institute at the University of Michigan. The Institute > dates run from June 30 - August 8. I am writing to see if people > still want to do the SACLC in conjunction with the summer Institute? > If so we need to choose a weekend for the conference (we can't have > in Monday - Thursday). Also the first weekend of the Institute is > the weekend of the 4th of July, so that probably wouldn't be a good > time and the weekend of July 18 - 20 the Committee on the Status of > Women in Linguistics is meeting. The possible weekend dates for the > conference are as follows: > > July 4 - 6 > July 11 - 13 > July 18 - 20 > July 25 - 27 > Aug. 1 - 3 > Aug. 8 - 10 > > In addition, could people also comment on the following: > > 1) We need to have an estimate of the number of participants (so we > can reserve an appropriate size room). I am going to estimate the > the number of participants to be approximately 30. Does this seem > right? > > 2) What king of AV equipment will people need? > > 3) Do we want to have the conference advertised generally during the Institute? > > 4) Do we want the conference to appear in the Institute brochure? > > I assume that the answers to questions 3 & 4 are' yes', but I wanted > to check with everyone. If people could either respond to the list > if there is something that needs to be addressed by everyone > (possible dates) or to me personally at > about anything else, I'd appreciate it. We need to get this resolved > in the next two or three weeks so we can get our spot reserved if we > decide to have the conference in conjunction with the institute. > > Thanks, > > John P. Boyle > Department of Linguistics > University of Chicago > From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Tue Mar 19 17:10:51 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 11:10:51 -0600 Subject: Dhegihanists. Message-ID: Hi Bob, This is exactly what I've been saying happens in Osage. OS -apa is the moving present marker whether singular or plural. The OS -akxa would show that the bull is present but not moving. I'm so glad others are finding this too. Carolyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2002 1:01 PM Subject: Dhegihanists. > > I've been working thru the paper by Barron and Serzisko on Siouan > positionals and Ponca article use. They cite two sentences from JOD > 1890:466.7 and 467.3. > > Ki te-nuga ama waji-pibaji > and buffalo bull the [moving] was savage > And the buffalo bull was savage. > > Waji-pibaji te-nuga aka > was savage Buffalo bull the [not in motion] > The buffalo bull was savage. > > Is this your reading of the above sentences? Is buffalo bull singular or > plural here? Is the article difference due to motion, number or something > else? > > B&S did a good job of finding some interesting examples in > Dorsey, but they don't always analyze them correctly and they confuse > homophones [thaN] 'article' and 'postposition from' along with [the] > 'article' and 'evidential' (and sometimes [tte] 'irrealis'). > > Bob > From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Tue Mar 19 17:21:01 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 11:21:01 -0600 Subject: 2003 Meeting Message-ID: I vote for August, on the basis that I would like to get out of OK and TX during August heat. Plus I'd tentatively planned to be in Venezuela in July. Carolyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Boyle" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 9:26 AM Subject: 2003 Meeting > Dear All, > > Last year at the Siouan and Caddoan languages conference (SACLC) we > tossed around the idea of having the 2003 meeting in conjunction with > the 2003 LSA Institute at the University of Michigan. The Institute > dates run from June 30 - August 8. I am writing to see if people > still want to do the SACLC in conjunction with the summer Institute? > If so we need to choose a weekend for the conference (we can't have > in Monday - Thursday). Also the first weekend of the Institute is > the weekend of the 4th of July, so that probably wouldn't be a good > time and the weekend of July 18 - 20 the Committee on the Status of > Women in Linguistics is meeting. The possible weekend dates for the > conference are as follows: > > July 4 - 6 > July 11 - 13 > July 18 - 20 > July 25 - 27 > Aug. 1 - 3 > Aug. 8 - 10 > > In addition, could people also comment on the following: > > 1) We need to have an estimate of the number of participants (so we > can reserve an appropriate size room). I am going to estimate the > the number of participants to be approximately 30. Does this seem > right? > > 2) What king of AV equipment will people need? > > 3) Do we want to have the conference advertised generally during the Institute? > > 4) Do we want the conference to appear in the Institute brochure? > > I assume that the answers to questions 3 & 4 are' yes', but I wanted > to check with everyone. If people could either respond to the list > if there is something that needs to be addressed by everyone > (possible dates) or to me personally at > about anything else, I'd appreciate it. We need to get this resolved > in the next two or three weeks so we can get our spot reserved if we > decide to have the conference in conjunction with the institute. > > Thanks, > > John P. Boyle > Department of Linguistics > University of Chicago > From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Tue Mar 19 20:36:05 2002 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 14:36:05 -0600 Subject: 2003 Meeting Message-ID: I like the idea of meeting with LSA institute, but it's too far ahead for me to have much sense of which week would be best. I think I have a conflict the weekend of July 11. Later is probably better for me??? Who knows! By the way... Perhaps I've just not been paying sufficient attention -- but I don't know when THIS year's conference (2002) is. Has a firm date been set? Is it still in ND? Summer is getting pretty booked up... I'll be pretty embarrassed if everyone else has known the date for months and I've gone and scheduled something else at the same time... Catherine ---------------------------------------------------- > Last year at the Siouan and Caddoan languages conference (SACLC) we > tossed around the idea of having the 2003 meeting in conjunction with > the 2003 LSA Institute at the University of Michigan. The Institute > dates run from June 30 - August 8. I am writing to see if people > still want to do the SACLC in conjunction with the summer Institute? > If so we need to choose a weekend for the conference (we can't have > in Monday - Thursday). Also the first weekend of the Institute is > the weekend of the 4th of July, so that probably wouldn't be a good > time and the weekend of July 18 - 20 the Committee on the Status of > Women in Linguistics is meeting. The possible weekend dates for the > conference are as follows: > > July 4 - 6 > July 11 - 13 > July 18 - 20 > July 25 - 27 > Aug. 1 - 3 > Aug. 8 - 10 > > In addition, could people also comment on the following: > > 1) We need to have an estimate of the number of participants (so we > can reserve an appropriate size room). I am going to estimate the > the number of participants to be approximately 30. Does this seem > right? > > 2) What king of AV equipment will people need? > > 3) Do we want to have the conference advertised generally during the Institute? > > 4) Do we want the conference to appear in the Institute brochure? > > I assume that the answers to questions 3 & 4 are' yes', but I wanted > to check with everyone. If people could either respond to the list > if there is something that needs to be addressed by everyone > (possible dates) or to me personally at > about anything else, I'd appreciate it. We need to get this resolved > in the next two or three weeks so we can get our spot reserved if we > decide to have the conference in conjunction with the institute. > > Thanks, > > John P. Boyle > Department of Linguistics > University of Chicago > From kdshea at ku.edu Wed Mar 20 09:16:59 2002 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 03:16:59 -0600 Subject: 2003 Meeting Message-ID: I would add my vote for August. Kathy Shea ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Boyle" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 9:26 AM Subject: 2003 Meeting > Dear All, > > Last year at the Siouan and Caddoan languages conference (SACLC) we > tossed around the idea of having the 2003 meeting in conjunction with > the 2003 LSA Institute at the University of Michigan. The Institute > dates run from June 30 - August 8. I am writing to see if people > still want to do the SACLC in conjunction with the summer Institute? > If so we need to choose a weekend for the conference (we can't have > in Monday - Thursday). Also the first weekend of the Institute is > the weekend of the 4th of July, so that probably wouldn't be a good > time and the weekend of July 18 - 20 the Committee on the Status of > Women in Linguistics is meeting. The possible weekend dates for the > conference are as follows: > > July 4 - 6 > July 11 - 13 > July 18 - 20 > July 25 - 27 > Aug. 1 - 3 > Aug. 8 - 10 > > In addition, could people also comment on the following: > > 1) We need to have an estimate of the number of participants (so we > can reserve an appropriate size room). I am going to estimate the > the number of participants to be approximately 30. Does this seem > right? > > 2) What king of AV equipment will people need? > > 3) Do we want to have the conference advertised generally during the Institute? > > 4) Do we want the conference to appear in the Institute brochure? > > I assume that the answers to questions 3 & 4 are' yes', but I wanted > to check with everyone. If people could either respond to the list > if there is something that needs to be addressed by everyone > (possible dates) or to me personally at > about anything else, I'd appreciate it. We need to get this resolved > in the next two or three weeks so we can get our spot reserved if we > decide to have the conference in conjunction with the institute. > > Thanks, > > John P. Boyle > Department of Linguistics > University of Chicago From kdshea at ku.edu Wed Mar 20 09:24:59 2002 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 03:24:59 -0600 Subject: 2003 Meeting Message-ID: Oops, John, I wasn't thinking! It hadn't sunk in that you were talking about 2003, so please disregard my last message. I don't have a preference for any specific date for SACC in the summer of 2003 at this point. Kathy Shea ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Boyle" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 9:26 AM Subject: 2003 Meeting > Dear All, > > Last year at the Siouan and Caddoan languages conference (SACLC) we > tossed around the idea of having the 2003 meeting in conjunction with > the 2003 LSA Institute at the University of Michigan. The Institute > dates run from June 30 - August 8. I am writing to see if people > still want to do the SACLC in conjunction with the summer Institute? > If so we need to choose a weekend for the conference (we can't have > in Monday - Thursday). Also the first weekend of the Institute is > the weekend of the 4th of July, so that probably wouldn't be a good > time and the weekend of July 18 - 20 the Committee on the Status of > Women in Linguistics is meeting. The possible weekend dates for the > conference are as follows: > > July 4 - 6 > July 11 - 13 > July 18 - 20 > July 25 - 27 > Aug. 1 - 3 > Aug. 8 - 10 > > In addition, could people also comment on the following: > > 1) We need to have an estimate of the number of participants (so we > can reserve an appropriate size room). I am going to estimate the > the number of participants to be approximately 30. Does this seem > right? > > 2) What king of AV equipment will people need? > > 3) Do we want to have the conference advertised generally during the Institute? > > 4) Do we want the conference to appear in the Institute brochure? > > I assume that the answers to questions 3 & 4 are' yes', but I wanted > to check with everyone. If people could either respond to the list > if there is something that needs to be addressed by everyone > (possible dates) or to me personally at > about anything else, I'd appreciate it. We need to get this resolved > in the next two or three weeks so we can get our spot reserved if we > decide to have the conference in conjunction with the institute. > > Thanks, > > John P. Boyle > Department of Linguistics > University of Chicago From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 20 15:48:05 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 08:48:05 -0700 Subject: A Metaphorical Suggestion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Mar 2002, Koontz John E wrote: > It has occurred to me to wonder if the akha : ama distinction might be > relatable to this metaphor by considering ama as tantamount to a stage > direction of 'enter X' or 'exit/exeunt X', while akha refers to a > reference which is currently on stage. I've started looking at this, though I hope that won't stop anyone else - especially if they need quick answers, Ardis and/or Kathy! It's certainly not as simple as first mention in ama, subsequent mentions in akha - which, of course, I pretty much took for granted - not even as simple as first mentions in akha or ama, subsequent mentions in akha or continuing ama in ama. At least I don't think so. In some of the texts I was considering, the NP changed as well as the article, which could be relevant, and I was nodding out earlier than usual. It does seem clear that most plural references are ama, if perhaps not all - I haven't relocated any akha plural examples. But, as everybody has been noticing all along and not pursuing, there's something fishy about the ama-singular => moving equation, because you can have two closely positioned cases of NP ama V-MOTION and NP akha V-MOTION. I thought about motion verbs implying motion if they were verbs of arrival, but both of the verbs in question were arrival verbs, I believe. One case I noticed introduced Rabbit (ama) living with his grandmother (akha). The approach that always occurs to me in cases like this is to handle the text as a series of sentences reduced, say, to the NPs, with identity tracking numbers attached to the NPs. The question is how much other information needs to be included. In the past I've always ended up including so much that I decided the project was too much work just now. This time I've decided to try just the NPs - ignoring even things like whether the predicate is a verb of motion or there is a pronominal (in verb) (often a third person nil) reference to the NP in a clause, though I suspect both of these might be relevant. The problem is that Omaha piles up predicates so readily that you can end up with several of these A3 and/or P3 references to an NP in a clause. You end up spending all your time locating these "zero references," and none of it looking at NPs. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 20 15:55:10 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 08:55:10 -0700 Subject: Me Hi Message-ID: (?) Eskana me hi the, naNde dhiudaN kkaNbdha. Eskana me hi tHe, noNde thiudoN koNbtha. From rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu Wed Mar 20 16:32:50 2002 From: rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu (rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 10:32:50 -0600 Subject: Me Hi Message-ID: > (?) Eskana me hi the, naNde dhiudaN kkaNbdha. > Eskana me hi tHe, noNde thiudoN koNbtha. I would loosely gloss this as: I suppose spring has arrived where you are, which hopefully makes your heart glad. Is this from one of the Ponca Letters? Rory From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Wed Mar 20 17:28:31 2002 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:28:31 -0600 Subject: A Metaphorical Suggestion Message-ID: John -- I'm looking forward to seeing your results on akha/ama in texts -- maybe we'll finally put one or two of these questions to rest! Just a side comment on plural references with akha. We did look at some instances of akha with plural at the Niskidhe meeting, and I've got plenty of them in my recorded texts too, but as far as I remember most if not all of them have an explicit number, which might make a difference. I mean phrases like "wa'u naNba akha" (the two women), where naNba makes it very explicitly plural... Catherine It does seem clear that most plural references are ama, if perhaps not all - I haven't relocated any akha plural examples. But, as everybody has been noticing all along and not pursuing, there's something fishy about the ama-singular => moving equation, because you can have two closely positioned cases of NP ama V-MOTION and NP akha V-MOTION. I thought about motion verbs implying motion if they were verbs of arrival, but both of the verbs in question were arrival verbs, I believe. One case I noticed introduced Rabbit (ama) living with his grandmother (akha). The approach that always occurs to me in cases like this is to handle the text as a series of sentences reduced, say, to the NPs, with identity tracking numbers attached to the NPs. The question is how much other information needs to be included. In the past I've always ended up including so much that I decided the project was too much work just now. This time I've decided to try just the NPs - ignoring even things like whether the predicate is a verb of motion or there is a pronominal (in verb) (often a third person nil) reference to the NP in a clause, though I suspect both of these might be relevant. The problem is that Omaha piles up predicates so readily that you can end up with several of these A3 and/or P3 references to an NP in a clause. You end up spending all your time locating these "zero references," and none of it looking at NPs. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 20 17:58:45 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 10:58:45 -0700 Subject: Me Hi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu wrote: > > (?) Eskana me hi the, naNde dhiudaN kkaNbdha. > > > Eskana me hi tHe, noNde thiudoN koNbtha. > > I would loosely gloss this as: > > I suppose spring has arrived where you are, > which hopefully makes your heart glad. > > Is this from one of the Ponca Letters? No. I'm afraid I made it up. I've been wrestling with the syntax of this sort of thing for years. I'm now thinking maybe ... (?) Eskana me s^uhi egaN naNde dhiudaN kkaNbdhegaN, Eskana me shuhi egoN noNde thiudoN koNbthegoN. Or maybe adaN/adoN 'and therefore' instead of egaN/egoN 'and so' (or 'having')? I think I got the "would that" idiom "Eska(na) ... kkaNbdh=egaN" right this time. I forgot the final egaN the first time. I'm pretty sure on reflection that s^uhi 'arrive there where you are' is better than simple hi 'arrive there'. Maybe it should be reflexive. So, by intent, something like "Happy spring!" I understand this is the first day of Spring in the calendrical sense. Spring is here in Boulder, but in typical Front Range (High Plains) fashion will alternate with winter for several months more. (Note: I haven't heard any thunder yet.) This may or may not be grammatical and is probably weak culturally in several ways, e.g., I've never encountered an idiom expressing greetings, etc., based on some occasion, e.g., no "Merry Christmas" or "Congratulations on being pipe danced," etc. JEK From are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu Wed Mar 20 20:37:32 2002 From: are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu (Ardis R Eschenberg) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:37:32 -0500 Subject: A Metaphorical Suggestion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In my dissertation, I describe and believe I have evidence for the explanation between ama being used with motion involving a scene shift while akHa is used with motion in the same general setting. I gave a few examples of this in my Colorado talk. It can be thought of as marked motion vs. unmarked motion. Similarly, akHa tends to be used when number is evident from other words/morphemes and ama is used itself to mark plural number (when there are no other markers such as an overt number). This can also be thought of as marked and unmarked. I'm in the thick of this chapter right now. My evidence is both from Dorsey and my own stuff. On another topic... What are the dates for Spearfish? I'm sorry, I can;t seem to find where I wrote them down (if I did). Regards, Ardis On Wed, 20 Mar 2002, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > > John -- I'm looking forward to seeing your results on akha/ama in texts -- > maybe we'll finally put one or two of these questions to rest! Just a > side comment on plural references with akha. We did look at some instances > of akha with plural at the Niskidhe meeting, and I've got plenty of them in > my recorded texts too, but as far as I remember most if not all of them > have an explicit number, which might make a difference. I mean phrases > like "wa'u naNba akha" (the two women), where naNba makes it very > explicitly plural... > Catherine > > > > > > It does seem clear that most plural references are ama, if perhaps not all > - I haven't relocated any akha plural examples. But, as everybody has > been noticing all along and not pursuing, there's something fishy about > the ama-singular => moving equation, because you can have two closely > positioned cases of NP ama V-MOTION and NP akha V-MOTION. I thought about > motion verbs implying motion if they were verbs of arrival, but both of > the verbs in question were arrival verbs, I believe. One case I noticed > introduced Rabbit (ama) living with his grandmother (akha). > > The approach that always occurs to me in cases like this is to handle the > text as a series of sentences reduced, say, to the NPs, with identity > tracking numbers attached to the NPs. The question is how much other > information needs to be included. In the past I've always ended up > including so much that I decided the project was too much work just now. > This time I've decided to try just the NPs - ignoring even things like > whether the predicate is a verb of motion or there is a pronominal (in > verb) (often a third person nil) reference to the NP in a clause, though I > suspect both of these might be relevant. The problem is that Omaha piles > up predicates so readily that you can end up with several of these A3 > and/or P3 references to an NP in a clause. You end up spending all your > time locating these "zero references," and none of it looking at NPs. > > JEK > > > > > > > From are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu Wed Mar 20 20:41:06 2002 From: are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu (Ardis R Eschenberg) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:41:06 -0500 Subject: Me Hi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: BTW we have had thunder here already (it was accompanied by hail and snow). Happy spring! From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Wed Mar 20 20:52:40 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:52:40 -0600 Subject: Me Hi Message-ID: Just for fun, here's my attempt at what the Osage of John's spring wish would be. The first part in parenthesis is based on one occurence I've seen of wie miNks^e used like 'chez moi' in French. [dhie niNks^e] pe hidhe apa ska, dhaaNce dhaliN dhihkoNbra Carolyn PS The desert in west Texas turned green in the last two days. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 10:32 AM Subject: Re: Me Hi > > > (?) Eskana me hi the, naNde dhiudaN kkaNbdha. > > > Eskana me hi tHe, noNde thiudoN koNbtha. > > I would loosely gloss this as: > > I suppose spring has arrived where you are, > which hopefully makes your heart glad. > > Is this from one of the Ponca Letters? > > Rory > From rankin at ku.edu Wed Mar 20 22:57:47 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 16:57:47 -0600 Subject: A Metaphorical Suggestion and meeting times. Message-ID: >... restating the proximate/obviative distinction in terms of on-stage/off-stage. I guess that, to me, that's what proximate/obviative IS basically. It's also been described as "central/peripheral" by Heather Hardy for Muskogean, where more than one reference is also possible in both categories, but I suspect she may just not have been familiar with the established "proximate/obviative" categories. I see no point in reinventing the terminological wheel; it seems to me that it's better to take the best the past has to offer and try to add something modest to it. We'll all be lucky if we can just accomplish that much. I guess this means I'll never be a very good discourse analyst. While it would be nice to be able to explain everything in the text collection, I think this is precisely the kind of problem that can best be approached by working with speakers (who can at least try to explain what they are thinking when using one or the other particle). THEN see if the texts can be rationalized in that light. As for the Summer meeting in 2003, I'm pretty flexible as far as I know. I must say that I tend to prefer meeting somewhere in Siouan-speaking territory, but the Institute will work as long as they don't want a lot of rent money from us for meeting space. Bob From dvklinguist at hotmail.com Wed Mar 20 23:34:07 2002 From: dvklinguist at hotmail.com (David Kaufman) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:34:07 +0000 Subject: Me Hi Message-ID: Hi Carolyn, You don't know me--my name is David Kaufman and I'm now a member of SSILA as well as of John's Siouan list. I'm finishing my MA Linguistics here at San Jos? State in California. I'm considering pursuing a Ph.D. in Linguistics. I'm actually going next week to Chicago to meet with John Boyle and the head of the dept. at U. of Chicago. I've been studying Hidatsa, and John and I have been in email contact as he patiently answers my gazillion questions! So I wanted to go back and visit him and learn more about what he's doing for his Ph.D. and field work with Hidatsa. The reason I'm emailing you is because I understand you are one of the few (perhaps the ONLY?) person working on Osage. I am a small part Osage (mixed with a huge part European) and have been interested in trying to get more info on the language. John mentioned that you did a dissertation on it. I'm wondering how I can get a copy of your dissertation and perhaps whatever other materials you may have on the language. Both John Boyle and John Koontz have indicated the need for someone to work on Winnebago, and I have expressed my interest in the possibility of working on it myself, hopefully as part of a Ph.D. dissertation. I still need to take the GRE and actually apply to programs, but I am trying to meet people and make connections and get info about the different programs. So far, Chicago and Boulder both sound quite promising! I'd appreciate whatever information or advice you can offer me about Osage and Native American studies in general. And if you have any info about Ph.D. programs where you live, please let me know. I'll have my phone and email info at the end of this email. (I'm also listed in the SSILA member directory.) Thank you so much! Dave Kaufman MA Linguistics (May 2002) San Jos? State University Phone: 408-266-8946 Email: dvklinguist at hotmail.com >From: "Carolyn Quintero" >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: >Subject: Re: Me Hi >Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:52:40 -0600 > >Just for fun, here's my attempt at what the Osage of John's spring wish >would be. The first part in parenthesis is based on one occurence I've >seen >of wie miNks^e used like 'chez moi' in French. > >[dhie niNks^e] pe hidhe apa ska, dhaaNce dhaliN dhihkoNbra >Carolyn >PS The desert in west Texas turned green in the last two days. >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 10:32 AM >Subject: Re: Me Hi > > > > > > > (?) Eskana me hi the, naNde dhiudaN kkaNbdha. > > > > > Eskana me hi tHe, noNde thiudoN koNbtha. > > > > I would loosely gloss this as: > > > > I suppose spring has arrived where you are, > > which hopefully makes your heart glad. > > > > Is this from one of the Ponca Letters? > > > > Rory > > > Check out my personal web site: http://dvklinguist.homestead.com/Homepage1.html _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Thu Mar 21 02:53:49 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 20:53:49 -0600 Subject: Osage... Message-ID: **Reply is below ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Kaufman" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 5:34 PM Subject: Re: Me Hi Hi Carolyn, You don't know me--my name is David Kaufman and I'm now a member of SSILA as well as of John's Siouan list. I'm finishing my MA Linguistics here at San Jos? State in California. I'm considering pursuing a Ph.D. in Linguistics. I'm actually going next week to Chicago to meet with John Boyle and the head of the dept. at U. of Chicago. I've been studying Hidatsa, and John and I have been in email contact as he patiently answers my gazillion questions! So I wanted to go back and visit him and learn more about what he's doing for his Ph.D. and field work with Hidatsa. **Hi David, Well, welcome to the small group of us interested in Siouan languages. John certainly is a good person for you to talk to. The reason I'm emailing you is because I understand you are one of the few (perhaps the ONLY?) person working on Osage. I am a small part Osage (mixed with a huge part European) and have been interested in trying to get more info on the language. John mentioned that you did a dissertation on it. I'm wondering how I can get a copy of your dissertation and perhaps whatever other materials you may have on the language. **I believe I'm the only person working on Osage. And now I've just recently lost my main speaker to ill health. There are only a couple of other speakers, and they are so "rusty" (as they say), not having spoken Osage for 30 years, that they are not really comfortable trying to produce the information I need at this point. So, while there is work to be done on a limited set of older texts (La Flesche), there is no longer a possibility of working with speakers, I believe. If you'd like to work from texts, or to try your hand with these very few speakers, I'd be delighted to give you whatever guidance I can. I should mention that there is one elderly gentleman in Missouri who could just possibly be able to recall some of the language, with whom I have never tried to work. Both John Boyle and John Koontz have indicated the need for someone to work on Winnebago, and I have expressed my interest in the possibility of working on it myself, hopefully as part of a Ph.D. dissertation. I still need to take the GRE and actually apply to programs, but I am trying to meet people and make connections and get info about the different programs. So far, Chicago and Boulder both sound quite promising! ***Both are good schools for what you want to do. Bob Rankin at the U. Kansas at Lawrence is absolutely tops in this area, but he is retiring or semi-retired, I believe. University of Indiana has a good program, too, at Bloomington (Doug Parks, Ray DeMallie). I'd appreciate whatever information or advice you can offer me about Osage and Native American studies in general. And if you have any info about Ph.D. programs where you live, please let me know. I'll have my phone and email info at the end of this email. (I'm also listed in the SSILA member directory.) Thank you so much! **Please feel free to ask whatever you like about Osage. I don't know much about other programs, since I came into the Indian languages field from the University of Massachusetts graduate program, and we didn't do descriptive work when I was there. That program is one of the top four in the country, if you want to use your native languages materials to try to contribute to linguistic theory, which can be a lot of fun! **Regards, ***Carolyn Quintero **PS. I guess I should mention that I have a Grammar of Osage at the publisher's. And I'm trying to finish up a dictionary by summer or fall. Both of these efforts were quite difficult given the obsolescence of the language. I've self-published a brief textbook, fairly informal, for beginning Osage language. Dave Kaufman MA Linguistics (May 2002) San Jos? State University Phone: 408-266-8946 Email: dvklinguist at hotmail.com >From: "Carolyn Quintero" >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: >Subject: Re: Me Hi >Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:52:40 -0600 > >Just for fun, here's my attempt at what the Osage of John's spring wish >would be. The first part in parenthesis is based on one occurence I've >seen >of wie miNks^e used like 'chez moi' in French. > >[dhie niNks^e] pe hidhe apa ska, dhaaNce dhaliN dhihkoNbra >Carolyn >PS The desert in west Texas turned green in the last two days. >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 10:32 AM >Subject: Re: Me Hi > > > > > > > (?) Eskana me hi the, naNde dhiudaN kkaNbdha. > > > > > Eskana me hi tHe, noNde thiudoN koNbtha. > > > > I would loosely gloss this as: > > > > I suppose spring has arrived where you are, > > which hopefully makes your heart glad. > > > > Is this from one of the Ponca Letters? > > > > Rory > > > Check out my personal web site: http://dvklinguist.homestead.com/Homepage1.html _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From cqcqcq at pgtv.net Thu Mar 21 02:55:47 2002 From: cqcqcq at pgtv.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 20:55:47 -0600 Subject: Oops, dissertation. Message-ID: My dissertation is Osage Phonology and Verbal Morphology, available through UMI. Carolyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Kaufman" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 5:34 PM Subject: Re: Me Hi Hi Carolyn, You don't know me--my name is David Kaufman and I'm now a member of SSILA as well as of John's Siouan list. I'm finishing my MA Linguistics here at San Jos? State in California. I'm considering pursuing a Ph.D. in Linguistics. I'm actually going next week to Chicago to meet with John Boyle and the head of the dept. at U. of Chicago. I've been studying Hidatsa, and John and I have been in email contact as he patiently answers my gazillion questions! So I wanted to go back and visit him and learn more about what he's doing for his Ph.D. and field work with Hidatsa. The reason I'm emailing you is because I understand you are one of the few (perhaps the ONLY?) person working on Osage. I am a small part Osage (mixed with a huge part European) and have been interested in trying to get more info on the language. John mentioned that you did a dissertation on it. I'm wondering how I can get a copy of your dissertation and perhaps whatever other materials you may have on the language. Both John Boyle and John Koontz have indicated the need for someone to work on Winnebago, and I have expressed my interest in the possibility of working on it myself, hopefully as part of a Ph.D. dissertation. I still need to take the GRE and actually apply to programs, but I am trying to meet people and make connections and get info about the different programs. So far, Chicago and Boulder both sound quite promising! I'd appreciate whatever information or advice you can offer me about Osage and Native American studies in general. And if you have any info about Ph.D. programs where you live, please let me know. I'll have my phone and email info at the end of this email. (I'm also listed in the SSILA member directory.) Thank you so much! Dave Kaufman MA Linguistics (May 2002) San Jos? State University Phone: 408-266-8946 Email: dvklinguist at hotmail.com >From: "Carolyn Quintero" >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: >Subject: Re: Me Hi >Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:52:40 -0600 > >Just for fun, here's my attempt at what the Osage of John's spring wish >would be. The first part in parenthesis is based on one occurence I've >seen >of wie miNks^e used like 'chez moi' in French. > >[dhie niNks^e] pe hidhe apa ska, dhaaNce dhaliN dhihkoNbra >Carolyn >PS The desert in west Texas turned green in the last two days. >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 10:32 AM >Subject: Re: Me Hi > > > > > > > (?) Eskana me hi the, naNde dhiudaN kkaNbdha. > > > > > Eskana me hi tHe, noNde thiudoN koNbtha. > > > > I would loosely gloss this as: > > > > I suppose spring has arrived where you are, > > which hopefully makes your heart glad. > > > > Is this from one of the Ponca Letters? > > > > Rory > > > Check out my personal web site: http://dvklinguist.homestead.com/Homepage1.html _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu Thu Mar 21 14:44:41 2002 From: rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu (rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:44:41 -0600 Subject: Me Hi Message-ID: > (?) Eskana me hi the, naNde dhiudaN kkaNbdha. > Eskana me hi tHe, noNde thiudoN koNbtha. Anyway, I think the proper answer to this is: ANkhazhi ho. Usnixti, tadesage. at least around this neck of the woods. Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Mar 21 15:31:07 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:31:07 -0700 Subject: Spearfish Announcement Pending; Subscriptions to List In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Mar 2002, Ardis R Eschenberg (and others) recently wrote: > What are the dates for Spearfish? I'm sorry, I can;t seem to find where I > wrote them down (if I did). I believe Dick Carter is now connected to the list through his current email address, and that an announcement concerning the Spearfish Meeting is pending. I don't know any particulars regarding the meeting. This provides an opportunity to say a few words about falling out of contact with the list: this is easy to do nowdays with everyone's email addresses changing constantly, but hard to detect, if you forget to move a subscription, because sometimes the list is just quiet. If you are wondering if you've fallen out of the loop, just check the archives at http://www.linguistlist.org. If there is a sequence of recent postings you haven't received, you'll know you aren't on the list anymore. At least not effectively. Some mail servera apparently handle mail for inactive or non-functional accounts by discarding it rather than complaining to the sender. We have several subscribers whose addresses are probably inactive even though I'm not getting any complaints from their mail servers. One recipient I am fairly certain is deceased. But maybe still reading email? I leave his subscription up as a memorial and just in case. In some cases you may have received some recent postings, but not all. This is because some of you let your mail boxes get full, so that additional material is not accepted. I usually don't delete someone immediately when I get a message like that. I don't delete people immediately when I get messages about servers not responding, etc., either. So, if the problem resolves itself and a mailbox starts working again you keep your subscription, but lose some intervening mail. After an indefinite period - a week or two - I do delete problem subscriptions in order to shut off the flow of complaining messages from their mail servers, so you can deactivate your subscription this way, perhaps without meaning to. One other class of problem that occurs especially with University people is that a person subscribes through one particular machine and later discovers that though they are receiving mail, they can't post from the machine they currently use. Let me know and I'll fix this for you. Sometimes Universities also reform their address schemes in ways that have the same effect. You can only post if your current address is identical to the one you subscribed from. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Mar 21 15:39:37 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:39:37 -0700 Subject: Me Hi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu wrote: > Anyway, I think the proper answer to this is: > > ANkhazhi ho. Usnixti, tadesage. no it's real cold out (with a) hard wind. > > at least around this neck of the woods. EgaN. ANbathe mathe. Usniatt[a]sh[aN]. the same today it's snowing. It's real cold out What did I say about the Front Range weather? JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Mar 21 18:39:34 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 11:39:34 -0700 Subject: A Metaphorical Suggestion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Mar 2002, Ardis R Eschenberg wrote: > In my dissertation, I describe and believe I have evidence for the > explanation between ama being used with motion involving a scene shift > while akHa is used with motion in the same general setting. I gave a few > examples of this in my Colorado talk. It can be thought of as marked > motion vs. unmarked motion. Similarly, akHa tends to be used when number > is evident from other words/morphemes and ama is used itself to mark > plural number (when there are no other markers such as an overt number). > This can also be thought of as marked and unmarked. So, I take it that you argue that akha is unmarked generally, and that ama specificially marks plurality (when not otherwise marked) and movement (when noted to invoke a change of scene)? I take it that the change of scene involves all the referents, so that the set of referents (other than the ama NP) should change, or, in some cases, everybody should be translated to another location or join another group? Also, it sounds as if, perhaps, a change of scene could occur with ama-marking if there is no movement (or is novement necessary?). I assume ama-marking of plurality can occur without a change of scene? Of course, it's very interesting having plural marking used with the more marked cases - it's a parallel with plural marking being used (in part) to code proximateness. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Mar 21 18:53:12 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 11:53:12 -0700 Subject: A Metaphorical Suggestion and meeting times. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Mar 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I guess that, to me, that's what proximate/obviative IS basically. It's > also been described as "central/peripheral" by Heather Hardy for Muskogean, > where more than one reference is also possible in both categories, but I > suspect she may just not have been familiar with the established > "proximate/obviative" categories. I don't really have any problem with continuing to use the terms proximate/obviative, but I thought the staging metaphor was helpful in explaining the usual multiplicity of proximate references and the sorts of explanations of obviative references that Dorsey's sources offered. It probably makes the Algonquianists feel more at ease, because I think they feel strongly that one proximate reference should be the maximum at a time. This reminds me a bit of Classical theater's limits on the number of actors. > While it would be nice to be able to explain everything in the text > collection, I think this is precisely the kind of problem that can > best be approached by working with speakers (who can at least try to > explain what they are thinking when using one or the other particle). > THEN see if the texts can be rationalized in that light. It would be nice to be in a position to be able to do this. On the other hand, it's difficult to get a really coherent discussion of 'the' out of an English speaker. I hoped that a little advance spadework might help those in a position to make inquiries and conduct tests. I am embarassed to say that I seem to have lost track of Ardis's state of advance in this area. The Siouan Syntax meeting John Boyle organized in Colorado was very exciting, and I seem to have lost my grip on parts of it. From enichol4 at attbi.com Fri Mar 22 00:00:24 2002 From: enichol4 at attbi.com (Eric) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 18:00:24 -0600 Subject: A Metaphorical Suggestion and meeting times. Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 12:53 PM Subject: RE: A Metaphorical Suggestion and meeting times. > On Wed, 20 Mar 2002, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > I guess that, to me, that's what proximate/obviative IS basically. It's > > also been described as "central/peripheral" by Heather Hardy for Muskogean, > > where more than one reference is also possible in both categories, but I > > suspect she may just not have been familiar with the established > > "proximate/obviative" categories. > > I don't really have any problem with continuing to use the terms > proximate/obviative, but I thought the staging metaphor was helpful in > explaining the usual multiplicity of proximate references and the sorts of > explanations of obviative references that Dorsey's sources offered. It > probably makes the Algonquianists feel more at ease, because I think they > feel strongly that one proximate reference should be the maximum at a > time. This reminds me a bit of Classical theater's limits on the number > of actors........... A metaphor I've heard used in discussions of Algonquian obviation is that of cinematic "point of view". The local (first and second person) participants view the situation from a "camera angle" that keeps the proximate referant in the foreground. So in Algonquian you get proximate shifts of perspective that reflect changes in the attitude of the speaker toward the relative importance of the referants, just as cutting from one camera angle to another in a movie can draw the audience's attention to what the director wants to focus on. The stage metaphor for Siouan sounds a bit more objective to me. --Eric N. From rankin at ku.edu Fri Mar 22 23:37:21 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:37:21 -0600 Subject: Lakota dictionary. Message-ID: Those in the U.S. who might wish to order Bruce Ingham's Lakota dictionary may do so from Amazon.com in the UK. Their American web site wouldn't give me any price for it, but the UK site did. It comes to around 45 English pounds, and with shipping, close to 50. Bob From Zylogy at aol.com Sat Mar 23 17:23:28 2002 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:23:28 EST Subject: spatial/locational paradigms Message-ID: Yuchi and Siouan both had large sized spatial/locational paradigms. Does anyone know the situation areally? How do Caddoan and Iroquoian deal with this, or Keresan, Tanoan? I've a better idea now about typological cycling with regard to incorporated stem elements, how they're interpreted, etc. and want to get the bigger areal (wave) perspective, to see if the model still holds. Thanks. Best, Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com From BARudes at aol.com Sat Mar 23 21:32:45 2002 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 16:32:45 EST Subject: spatial/locational paradigms Message-ID: Jess, The situation with regard to locatives in Northern Iroquoian languages is that these languages have a very limited set of locatives that, with but one exception, all appear to be derivatives of stative verbs. (The cue in Tuscarora that the suffix is nominal or verbal in nature is the shift (for most nouns) from the simple noun prefix u- to the prefix ka-.) I will illustrate with forms from Tuscarora (an aposthrophe means the following vowel has high pitch accent, a grave means the following vowel has low pitch accent; a following N means the vowel is nasal; ? is used for glottal stop; : is used for vowel length; c is used for the palatal affricate c-hachek): un'eNhseh 'house' (root -neNhs-, from Proto-Northern Iroquoian *-noNhs- 'house') uneNhs'ehkye ~ uneNhs'a?kye ~ uneNhs'eN?kye 'at, on (the) house' (noun suffix -kye 'external locative' from Proto-Northern Iroquoian (PNI) *-ke 'external locative'; there is some evidence that the alternation among the simple noun suffixes -eh, -a?, -eN? resulted in slightly different meanings among these forms) kan'eNhsakeNw ~ kan'eNhsakeN: 'in, under (the) house' (verbal suffix -akeNw 'internal locative' from PNI *-akoNw 'internal locative', related to the PNI stative verb *-akoNw- 'lay within, lay inside') (the Lake Iroquoian languages, i.e., Northern Iroquoian minus Tuscarora and Nottoway, have another locative suffix similar to this one with initial /o/ rather than /a/ and a somewhat different meaning that I do not remember at the moment.) kan'eNhsakwt ~ kan'eNhsa:kt 'next to, beside (the) house' (verbal suffix -a:kt- 'lateral locative' from PNI *-a:kt- 'lateral locativel', related to the PNI stative verb *-a:kt- 'be next to, be alongside' kan'eNhsa'ni 'at the edge of, beyond, on the other side of (the) house' (verbal suffix -a'ni 'peripheral' from PNI *-ati 'peripheral locative' - further root connection uncertain) The verbal cislocative (t-) prefix can also be used with some nouns, typically deverbal nouns, to express location, as in tk`ineN 'at (the) creek' from k`ineN 'creek'. I do not know enough about Southern Iroquoian (Cherokee) to comment on the locative system except to say that it seems as simple or simpler than the Northern Iroquoian system. Although you did not ask, I might mention that the Catawba locative system works as follows. There are a series of locative prefixes that may occur on verbs, and that include aki:# 'near', capa# 'away', cik# 'forward', duk# 'back', ha# 'here', had# 'forward', ha:p# 'up', hi:cu# 'supine', hid# 'over yonder', huk# 'down', ka# 'upright', kepa# (Esaw kep#) 'under', ma# 'there', su# 'in', suk# 'on top', tak# 'in front', taN# (Esaw teraN#) 'out', yap# 'everywhere', yita# (Esaw yata#) 'across'. Some of these (e.g., ma, suk) may also occur as postclitics on nouns. The others may occur as independent locative particles with a final vowel (typically -i: or -u:) attached (e.g., ha:p'i: 'up'). Blair From Zylogy at aol.com Sat Mar 23 22:25:55 2002 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 17:25:55 EST Subject: spatial/locational paradigms Message-ID: Thank you Blair- I'm curious about those suffixes -eh, -a?, -eN? you mentioned in Tuscarora. One of the things I'm finding as an areal phenomenon in SE North America (and perhaps further afield) is something I'm calling (for want of a better name, suggestions welcome) the "intimacy" system. Degrees of intimacy of contact are encoded on the verb by affixes. In Muskogean, its those interesting petrified singular suffixes. In Tunica, final vowels. And so on. In Siouan, of course you have i, a, o (similarly for Chimakuan). And of course Ute has a graded vowel based demonstrative system. In Tunica, verb final vowels are a subset of the total, just i, a, u (and semantically there appear to be two versions of u, one of which may fit the in-system role of shwa). i-final roots have a sense of minimized contact between substrate and trajector, u- maximum, and a- finals are in between. The inside/outside relation is obvious, but subtle. Also please note the vocalic ablaut reconstructed for aspect marking in Salish by Dale Kinkade. English metaphor suggests being "into" a location is somewhat equivalent to being deep in a state, think also of uses of "over", "through", "outa here". Finer points of semantics of "intimacy" terms would be specified by the root itself, and other external marking. So what do the Tuscarora suffixes encode? Jess From rcarter at mato.com Sat Mar 23 23:26:18 2002 From: rcarter at mato.com (Dick Carter) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 16:26:18 -0700 Subject: SCALC 2002 Message-ID: SCALC 2002 Announcement and Call For Papers The 2002 meeting of the Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference will be held at Black Hills State University, in Spearfish, South Dakota, on Friday and Saturday, May 31 and June 1. Those wishing to present papers should submit a title and brief abstract to the convener, Dick Carter, by May 25. (This would be best accomplished by sending the abstract as an e-mail attachment to RichardCarter at bhsu.edu.) This year we will have a "parasession" on Friday morning devoted to papers that test contemporary ideas in linguistic theory against data from Siouan or Caddoan languages -- although papers which incorporate additional data from other language families will also be welcome. Other sessions will welcome papers on any topic concerning Siouan or Caddoan languages. Rooms for conference participants have been reserved at Pangborn Hall, a university dormitory. Those planning to attend the conference and reside in the dormitory should inform the convener by e-mail. Our rooms will be on the first floor. Room costs will be $10.80 per night for double occupancy, $21.60 per night for single occupancy, with an additional 8% in tax. Persons residing on campus are also charged a facilities use fee of $7.50, plus 6% tax. There will also be a nominal registration fee for all participants, to cover the cost of coffee-break refreshments. Those who find dormitory living too Spartan may make their own arrangements at one of the many motels. The following would be good choices: Best Western Downtown 605-642-4676 (about 1/4 mile away) Kelly Inn 605-642-7795 (about a mile away) Holiday Inn 800-999-3541 (not easily walkable) Comfort Inn 605-642-2337 (not easily walkable) Spearfish is located at the northern end of the beautiful Black Hills, and weather at the end of May is ordinarily delightful. For those planning to drive, Spearfish is located on Interstate Hwy. 90 about 45 miles north of Rapid City, South Dakota. Those traveling by air will fly to Rapid City Regional Airport, at which point it would be easiest to rent a car for the (roughly) 60 mile trip to Spearfish. There is much to see in the area: the drive through Spearfish Canyon, a federally designated "Scenic Byway", is especially fine in late spring. For those interested, casino gambling is available in the historic town of Deadwood, 17 miles away. (Supply your own money. And yes, Kevin Costner does give you better odds than the state and national lotteries.) For those staying on campus: dormitory staff will be available for check-in anytime after noon on Thursday, May 30, and will help with checkout from 10 AM - 12 Noon on Sunday, June 2. (Those wishing to leave on Saturday night may do so, of course.) Those needing additional information or assistance should contact Dick Carter at the above e-mail address. He can also be reached by phone at 605-642-6540. See you all in beautiful Spearfish!! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BARudes at aol.com Sun Mar 24 21:39:00 2002 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:39:00 EST Subject: spatial/locational paradigms Message-ID: Jess, Before I answer your immediate question, perhaps some background on the Tuscarora (Northern Iroquoian) suffixes is in order. In each of the Northern Iroquoian language, the vast major of simple nouns consist of a noun root preceded by a noun prefix and followed by a noun suffix. For most nouns, the noun prefixes are either ka-/w- (Wyandot ya-/zero ~m) or o-/aw- (Tuscarora, Wyandot u-/aw-). Pretty much everyone traces the origin of these prefixes to the Proto-Northern Iroquoian neuter singular agent prefixes *ka- / *w- and the neuter singular patient prefixes *yo- / *yaw-. The noun suffix has a variety of forms, none of which has a clear root connection: *-a?, *-ah, *-eh, *-e?, *-i?, *-ih, *-??. In a 1985 article (Rudes, B.A. 1985. Reconstructing Word Order in a Polysynthetic Language: from SOV to SVO in Iroquoian. In: J. Fisiak (ed.) Historical Syntax, pp. 201-256. The Hague: Mouton) I argued the structure of nouns in the Northern Iroquoian languages suggested an origin in predicate nominals, and that the various forms of the noun suffix were relics of old verb-aspect marker combinations. In a 1991 presentation at the Iroquois conference, I presented data original gathered by J.N.B. Hewitt in the late 19th century that illustrated the different meanings of the external locative (-kye) when different noun suffixes were present. Here are some of the examples. I leave it to you to determine what is being encoded by the difference in noun suffixes. -a?kye on, on the surface of, on top of -ehkye at, at the place of, in -eN?kye on (as a fixture of), against -(a)haha?kye: uhah'a?kye on the road, path, way -(a)hahehkye: uhah'hkye at the road, at the place of the road -(a)haheN?kye: uhah'eN?kye on or against the road, or stairway -(a)heN?na?kye: uheN?n'a?kye on, on the surface of the meadow -(a)heN?nehkye: uheN?n'ehkye at, in the meadow or grassy plot of ground -(a)heN?neN?kye: uheN?n'eN?kye on or in the meadow as a part of its surface -ci?ehna?kye: uci?ehn'a?kye on, on top of the claw, talon -ci?ehnehkye: uci?ehn'ehkye at, at the place of the claw -ci?ehneN?kye: uci?ehn'eN?kye on (as a fixture of) the claw Blair From Zylogy at aol.com Mon Mar 25 00:15:45 2002 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:15:45 EST Subject: spatial/locational paradigms Message-ID: Going to the library tomorrow anyway, will try to pick up the copy there of Tuscarora Roots.... so I can better see what you're talking about. Maybe get some materials on other languages while I'm at it. Would be very interesting if these affixes were some sort of "intimacy" system. Aspect commonly has spatial antecedents, so the directionality of grammaticalization with regard to nouns versus verbs would be interesting. Is anybody these days doing a full scale grammatical reconstruction for the family? Jess From are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu Mon Mar 25 05:25:22 2002 From: are2 at acsu.buffalo.edu (Ardis R Eschenberg) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 00:25:22 -0500 Subject: A Metaphorical Suggestion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > So, I take it that you argue that akha is unmarked generally, and that ama > specificially marks plurality (when not otherwise marked) and movement > (when noted to invoke a change of scene)? Yes. >I take it that the change of > scene involves all the referents, so that the set of referents (other than > the ama NP) should change, or, in some cases, everybody should be > translated to another location or join another group? The characters that are in motion as the scene changes are marked with ama. Not all characters always shift to the next scene, those are just dropped. New characters may occur at the new scene, these are not marked with ama (except marked plurality). >Also, it sounds as > if, perhaps, a change of scene could occur with ama-marking if there is no > movement (or is novement necessary?). I assume ama-marking of plurality > can occur without a change of scene? Ama marking of plurality can occur without scene shift. Characters (esp. the hero) tend to move from one scene to the next in narrative (even if that movement is rather abstract. For example in English narrative, we don't say the scene now shifts to London or the store or wherever. In oral tales we move the character. So Joe now goes to London or the store of wherever. Even though Joe may have flown or sailed or transmogrified or whatever, we still move him not just the scene. So, ama marking tends to occur couple by a motion verb. I guess a Rip van WInkle story would involve scene shift without motion (just sleep). That would be interesting, but then again maybe not. Only time, not scene would shift. The scene would be different but the same location. I doubt ama would pop up. If the scene changes and no character moves to it, all the characters are new and no ama is involved. Ama is motion to a new scene. > Of course, it's very interesting having plural marking used with the more > marked cases - it's a parallel with plural marking being used (in part) to > code proximateness. I like that ama is the marked member for both cases. But the unmarked member akHa is also proximate. I needed narrative to understand (or at least attempt to understand) this but it helps explain non-narrative contexts as well. Regards, Ardis From BARudes at aol.com Mon Mar 25 13:01:18 2002 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:01:18 EST Subject: spatial/locational paradigms Message-ID: Jess, Rather than Tuscarora Roots ..., my 1987 lexicon, you would do better looking through my 1999 Tuscarora-English/English-Tuscarora Dictionary (University of Toronto Press). It contains all of the examples from J.N.B. Hewitt. Blair From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Mon Mar 25 13:12:20 2002 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 13:12:20 -0000 Subject: Lakota dictionary. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Siouanists Please excuse me doing this self promotion, but I know how frustrating it is sometimes trying to get books from abroad. The publishers tell me that up till the end of May , the dictionary can be purchased as follows: The English-Lakota Dictionary is distributed in the US by Independent Publishers Group. They can be contacted on frontdesk at ipgbook.com or tel. 1 800 888 4741 or 312 337 0747 and you should be able to order a copy directly from them. After that date there will be another distributor. Bruce On 22 Mar 2002, at 17:37, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > Those in the U.S. who might wish to order Bruce Ingham's Lakota dictionary > may do so from Amazon.com in the UK. Their American web site wouldn't give > me any price for it, but the UK site did. It comes to around 45 English > pounds, and with shipping, close to 50. > > Bob Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From m.mixco at m.cc.utah.edu Mon Mar 25 15:07:16 2002 From: m.mixco at m.cc.utah.edu (Mauricio Mixco) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 07:07:16 -0800 Subject: SCALC 2002 In-Reply-To: <000a01c1d2c2$3bbfd2c0$929ff0c7@rcarter> Message-ID: no message from you on my screen-- sorry M From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 25 15:56:18 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:56:18 -0700 Subject: SCALC 2002 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I take Mauricio's message to mean that his mail system was unable to render the message properly, so I'll repost it. I got a warning about character sets myself. Let's see if this works. ==== SCALC 2002 Announcement and Call For Papers The 2002 meeting of the Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference will be held at Black Hills State University, in Spearfish, South Dakota, on Friday and Saturday, May 31 and June 1. Those wishing to present papers should submit a title and brief abstract to the convener, Dick Carter, by May 25. (This would be best accomplished by sending the abstract as an e-mail attachment to RichardCarter at bhsu.edu.) This year we will have a "parasession" on Friday morning devoted to papers that test contemporary ideas in linguistic theory against data from Siouan or Caddoan languages -- although papers which incorporate additional data from other language families will also be welcome. Other sessions will welcome papers on any topic concerning Siouan or Caddoan languages. Rooms for conference participants have been reserved at Pangborn Hall, a university dormitory. Those planning to attend the conference and reside in the dormitory should inform the convener by e-mail. Our rooms will be on the first floor. Room costs will be $10.80 per night for double occupancy, $21.60 per night for single occupancy, with an additional 8% in tax. Persons residing on campus are also charged a facilities use fee of $7.50, plus 6% tax. There will also be a nominal registration fee for all participants, to cover the cost of coffee-break refreshments. Those who find dormitory living too Spartan may make their own arrangements at one of the many motels. The following would be good choices: Best Western Downtown 605-642-4676 (about 1/4 mile away) Kelly Inn 605-642-7795 (about a mile away) Holiday Inn 800-999-3541 (not easily walkable) Comfort Inn 605-642-2337 (not easily walkable) Spearfish is located at the northern end of the beautiful Black Hills, and weather at the end of May is ordinarily delightful. For those planning to drive, Spearfish is located on Interstate Hwy. 90 about 45 miles north of Rapid City, South Dakota. Those traveling by air will fly to Rapid City Regional Airport, at which point it would be easiest to rent a car for the (roughly) 60 mile trip to Spearfish. There is much to see in the area: the drive through Spearfish Canyon, a federally designated "Scenic Byway", is especially fine in late spring. For those interested, casino gambling is available in the historic town of Deadwood, 17 miles away. (Supply your own money. And yes, Kevin Costner does give you better odds than the state and national lotteries.) For those staying on campus: dormitory staff will be available for check-in anytime after noon on Thursday, May 30, and will help with checkout from 10 AM - 12 Noon on Sunday, June 2. (Those wishing to leave on Saturday night may do so, of course.) Those needing additional information or assistance should contact Dick Carter at the above e-mail address. He can also be reached by phone at 605-642-6540. See you all in beautiful Spearfish!! From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 25 16:00:50 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:00:50 -0700 Subject: Character Set Problems In-Reply-To: <000a01c1d2c2$3bbfd2c0$929ff0c7@rcarter> Message-ID: The message I see, incidentally, reads: --- The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set. Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set. Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. --- I take this to mean that that the message was composed in a Unix character set (more typical these days of University users who telnet or dial in to a Unix server) and is being displayed in a Windows environment. Generally problems would only arise in regard to characters out of the range 000-127. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 25 16:45:06 2002 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:45:06 -0700 Subject: A Metaphorical Suggestion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ardis, thanks very much for taking the time to elaborate on your scheme for me! I know you must be pretty busy. On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, Ardis R Eschenberg wrote: > The characters that are in motion as the scene changes are marked with > ama. Not all characters always shift to the next scene, those are > just dropped. New characters may occur at the new scene, these are > not marked with ama (except marked plurality). So, it's not just the presence of one non-plural ama that marks the transition of the scene, but ama specifically marks the references that transit to the next scene. > > Also, it sounds as > > if, perhaps, a change of scene could occur with ama-marking if there is no > > movement (or is novement necessary?). I made a mistake in wording here - I meant to ask if a change of scene can occur "with*out* ama-marking if there is no movement ...?" > > I assume ama-marking of plurality can occur without a change of scene? > Ama marking of plurality can occur without scene shift. Naturally, the language works the way it works, but I wonder about the independent behavior of the two ama articles. A given situation usually reflects in some way its origins, but here the motion ama behaves quite differently from the plurality ama. This might suggest that they're actually of separate origin, though they are certainly homophonous. But if they're independent in behavior (and possibly origin), you might not need to worry about linking them in terms of markedness. Thinking about it, I'd say that they would be more likely to be linked by something like vagueness or lack of focus. This is somewhat contrary to my instinct that references transiting to a new scene might be relatively more important and - excuse the word - focussed upon, but perhaps they are really "departing" or "arriving" and so less, uh, focussed upon. > just the scene. So, ama marking tends to occur couple by a motion > verb. I guess a Rip van Winkle story would involve scene shift > without motion (just sleep). I seem to recall some possibly analogous situations in some of the Buffalo woman stories - the hero awakes and all trace of her is gone. > That would be interesting, but then again maybe not. Only time, not > scene would shift. The scene would be different but the same location. > I doubt ama would pop up. This may perhaps answer my question about motionless scene changes. It would be nice if there were some additional markers of scene changes. From shanwest at uvic.ca Sat Mar 30 20:58:21 2002 From: shanwest at uvic.ca (Shannon West) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 12:58:21 -0800 Subject: FW: UG abandoned by Chomsky ? Message-ID: > >In an interesting review article John Searle applauds Noam Chomsky's abandonment of the notion of universal grammar and implicit acknowledgement that his linguistic revolution has not succeeded. > The article is in the 28Feb02 issue of the _New York Review > of Books_ (pp. 33-36. It is a review of Chomsky's _New Horizons in the Study of Language and the Mind_ (Cambridge U Press, 230pp., $60, $20 paper). Gah! So now I'm going to have to buy this book, which violates my "Avoid Chomsky" principle. (I deal better with those who translate Chomsky's work into something I can understand. ) I think I'm going to curl up into a fetal ball and shake now, for surely there is freezing rain in hell. ;) Shannon From Zylogy at aol.com Sat Mar 30 21:17:03 2002 From: Zylogy at aol.com (Jess Tauber) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 16:17:03 EST Subject: Gah, Chomsky! Message-ID: Heck, as I write, Noam (I can call you Noam, can't I?) is talking about the origin and evolution of language and grammar at a major conference on the topic finishing up today at Haaaavard. Who woulda thunk it just a few years ago. I guess in the end all radical positions fall before the glistening axe of centralism. Snick! Jess Tauber zylogy at aol.com From rankin at ku.edu Sat Mar 30 22:01:23 2002 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 16:01:23 -0600 Subject: Dhegiha stuff. Message-ID: I was going through the La Flesche Osage dictionary and ran across the entry "thoN-dsi" /dhaN ci/ 'at the', a locative classifier. There are examples of the sort: haNpa ?htaxe ?aN-ci 'At the break of day.' (p. 64) day its.tip the.sitting-LOC zaNc? $e-?aN-ci 'at yonder forest' (p. 153) forest that-the.sitting-LOC The entry and accompanying examples are interesting because they suggest that the old inanimate-sitting article, dhaN, has been retained in Osage in the locative classifiers, even though it has been replaced by the animate-sitting dhiNk$e when it occurs as a simple article. La Flesche's transcription mirrors real Osage here, so I'm wondering if the use of dhaN is real or if, perhaps, he inadvertently substituted the Omaha-Ponca article (which we've always thought no longer existed in Osage). I haven't been able to find any instances of the dhaN particle in Carolyn's dissertation yet. Bob