From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Aug 1 01:39:37 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 19:39:37 -0600 Subject: Our wish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Jul 2003, Rory M Larson wrote: > I'd like to clarify some of what you said: > > > whereas 'to think' is *DEMONSTRATIVE=ye. > > Did you mean =ye here, or =re? I thought *r => Dh. [dh], > [y], etc., while *y => Dh. [zh]. Yes, that's correct for *y in most contexts, but not intervocalically, when epenthetic, or when in clusters like *py or *ky. I went into this in great detail - actually, in excruciating detail - in http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0306&L=siouan&P=R4795 http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0306&L=siouan&P=R4852 > So across all of Siouan, this *ra stem is known only in > Dhegihan *kuN=ra ? I think it also occurs in Ioway-Otoe reflexes of the stem. I'll check. > How many distinct *k- stems do we have? Could it be that when > consonant clusters are reduced, *pku- => *kku-, while *pka- => *ppa- ? > I.e., high, back vowels like velar stops, while other vowels prefer > labial stops? Well, appart from gaNdha < *kuNra and gaghe < *kaghe there's gaNze 'to show' < *kuNze, which has A1 ppaNze. Also, gaNziNga 'not to know how to' has ppaNz^iNga. I don't know of cognates outside Dhegiha, but I suspect the intial element there might be *kuN as in gaNdha, in which case the construction is perhaps literally 'to little desire to'. So it looks like the vowel and maybe even the identity of the morpheme are irrelevant. I have pondered this a bit, but I haven't come up with anything. Other k-stems: gi (< *ku) 'to come back' (Teton may have phu < *hpu (?) for the first person of this in an isolated and obsolete idiom involving someone seeing someone they haven't seen for a while and saying s^ku, whereupon that person replies with phu. I think this is the only attested s^ in the second person in Dakotan. Allan Taylor pointed this out to me. It's in Buechel's dictionary.) gadha (gadhae?) 'to donate' This might be the lot. I don't recall any more examples off hand. Of course, essentially the only other g-initial verbs are those in ga- 'by striking, by action of current', which has its own unique paradigm. Verbs in b/d/g are rare, if you count the cases of stem-initial instrumentals b/d/g as a single example. That is, count all examples of ba-stems as one form ba-, all examples of bi-stems as one form bi-, and all examples of ga-stems as one example. All cases of instrumentals in b/d/g reduce to three examples, because there are only three instrumentals that do this, if I haven't forgotten one. This statement is phrased for OP, but applies with appropriate modifications in other Siouan languages, too. While you're at it, consider Mandan pke 'turtle' vs. Dakotan khe(ya), Dhegiha kke, Winnebago kee(=ra). This might be a *pk > *hk initial set, too, and behaves like the *kuN in *kuNra. JEK From napshawin at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 03:41:56 2003 From: napshawin at hotmail.com (Violet Catches) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 22:41:56 -0500 Subject: taku- vs. taku- Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Aug 1 13:29:49 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 07:29:49 -0600 Subject: PMV 'want' Message-ID: This is a quick survey of 'want' across Mississippi Valley Siouan. All Dhegiha has *...kuN=...ra (A1 p-kuN=p-ra) OP ...gaN=...dha (A1 kkaN=bdha) Os ...koN=...dha (A1 kkoN=bra) Ks ...goN=...ya (A1 *kkoN=bla) Qu ...koN=...da (A1 kkoN=pda) Having kk rather than pp in the first person is unusual all the other (not many) k-stems have pp in the first person, e.g., OP gaghe (A1 ppaghe). Ioway-Otoe has: IO guN=...na (< *kuN=...ra) or guN=...ra (Marsh) I *think* only the second element is inflected, but this form is not presented anywhere with a paradigm that I have seen. The first person is probably something like A1 *guNada, by analogy with other r-stems, but this is not certain. (R-stem first persons have both regular and r-stem inflection, a-d... < ha A1 + R, R from p-r, where p is also A1.) Winnebago has: Wi roo=guN (A1 ru=aguN) In other words, the root is guN, inflected regularly. The preverb roo=, ru= is not understood. Since Marino has hiroguN(xjije) 'to desire, want', I wonder if this roo= might be from hiro- (like Dakota iyo- or OP udhu-). Dakotan has: Da kuN (A1 wakuN) There is also a diminutivized form khuN=la, but the =la is the Dakotan diminutive (< *Ra) and not cognate with the =ra in Dhegiha and Ioway-Otoe. The Dakota form has one small irregularity, in that it is not palatalized when inflection or derivaiton places an /i/ before the kh, e.g., nikuN 'he coverts thee', not expected *nic^uN (Boas & Deloria 1941:14). I have sometimes wondered if this might be connected with the kk rather than pp phenomenon in Dhegiha, but I can't see how that would be, frankly. ==== LaFlesche lists for Osage k.oN /kkoN/ 'to wish or to desire' (LaF 88b). I am pretty sure this is a ghost. LaFlesche includes little pieces of earlier work, not always transcribed under the system he uses himself, or, at least, not properly adapted to it. Thus, looking around you find a few dh-stems inflected the Osage way where LaFlesche himself always uses the Omaha way. Dorsey used dotted letters (a small x under the letter in manuscript) or turned letters (in print) to represent his conception of sonant-surds, i.e., with stops, to indicate voiceless aspirates. In OP he distinguishes g : k. : k corresponding to what we write g : kk : k (or g : k : kH in the current popular orthographies, H representing raised h). In Os, where the lax stops (g) are devoiced, he writes k. : k. : k, usually adding h. (turned h) before the tense variant of k. and usually adding opening apostrophe or x or c (s^) after the aspirates, leading to k. : h.k. : kx ~ kc in practice. LaFlesche, having a native speakers appreciation of things, usually writes (in his final system) g : k. : k in both OP and Osage, generally adding sh after aspirates before i and e, so, in practice in Osage g : k. : k ~ ksh. Thus he uses dotted letters (now a proper dot in both manuscript and print) to represent tenseness rather than voicelessness-without-aspiration. Sometimes he leaves off the dot under tense stops, probably an oversight. In his work with Alice Fletcher all the dots were left off. I have seen at least one manuscript page (the list of river names) in which they are present, so I suspect the problem here lies with Fletcher or the GPO, not with LaFlesche. What I think happened with "k.oN" is that a form "k.oN" transcribed by Dorsey, representing koN, was taken over without revising it to "goN," leading to a false impression that it represents kkoN. In short, "k.oN" in this entry represents koN, probably accidentally shorn from koNdha or one of the more exaotic forms Rory has mentioned, though I don't know fi these are actually attested for Osage. The failure to revise the foirm to goN is at least partly due, probably, to LaFlesche failing to recognize the form at all. This is a hypothesis, of course. It might be resolvable with reference to the manuscript of LaFlesche's dictionary, or Dorsey's Osage slips. JEK From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 1 14:52:21 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:52:21 -0500 Subject: RE 'want' and chair inscription. Message-ID: The form at the bottom of the inscription on the Curtis chair has what at first glance appears to be KO'ONTHA IHA. When I was going over the photo yesterday I blew up this section. The mark after the first O may be an apostrophe, but it may also be another raised "n". I think this was how at least one of John's comments interpreted it too. The more closely you look, the harder it is to tell whether the right-hand stroke on the putative "n" is part of the mark or a reflection -- or possibly a discoloration of the lacquer. I just thought I'd point that out for what it's worth. This bottom phrase is the only part of the inscription that still bothers me. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Aug 1 15:08:29 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:08:29 -0600 Subject: RE 'want' and chair inscription. In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D165B8B@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Aug 2003, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > The form at the bottom of the inscription on the Curtis chair has what at > first glance appears to be KO'ONTHA IHA. When I was going over the photo > yesterday I blew up this section. The mark after the first O may be an > apostrophe, but it may also be another raised "n". I think this was how at > least one of John's comments interpreted it too. The more closely you look, > the harder it is to tell whether the right-hand stroke on the putative "n" > is part of the mark or a reflection -- or possibly a discoloration of the > lacquer. I just thought I'd point that out for what it's worth. Yes, I interpreted the mark after the first o as a raised n. > This bottom phrase is the only part of the inscription that still bothers > me. Ditto. Though the question of the language or intended language is somewhat vexed - probably Osage, and the issue of who composed it and their familiarity with the language is also an issue. Note that iha can be 'lip', though that is unlikely here! JEK From Rgraczyk at aol.com Fri Aug 1 15:17:12 2003 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Randolph Graczyk) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:17:12 -0400 Subject: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference Message-ID: Jimm: My grammar of Crow is in the final stages--it's due at the publishers (U of Nebraska Press) by the end of the year. Randy From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 1 15:23:10 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 10:23:10 -0500 Subject: Chair Message-ID: > The usual term for 'male friend' in OP in all recorded periods is khage, even though learned linguists might recognize kku/odha. Good point. Khage in Kaw and Osage don't have that meaning/usage AFAIK. Kkodha/kkoya would be the form of choice. I fear we are at an impass in the case of MONI. It may be a second person form (Carolyn's OS speakers gave some imperatives or adhortatives with second person inflection. I thought it was a semi-speaker phenomenon, but it may be older.) But even if this is an ordinary imperative, the tendency to have dh > [n], or something that sounds very much like n, between two nasal vowels may make this question impossible to decide. It's still the bottom part that troubles me most. I suspect that it is indeed something like "We wish it - declarative', but the pronominal location remains annoying, as does the initial K instead of G. I conclude that the language is Osage, but with all the demonstrated La Fleschean tendencies to fill in inflected forms from Omaha. This is so clear that I tend to agree that the donors of the chair were probably referred to La Flesche at the Bureau as a person who could do the translation for them. I told John Boyle I'd try to sum all this up at the meeting, so, with any luck, you'll all have another little co-authored paper to put on your vita. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 1 15:34:52 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 10:34:52 -0500 Subject: Chair Message-ID: > Point 2 seems to be up in the air. We've had claims for every Dhegihan language but Quapaw. Considerations are: Curtis' tribal affiliation was Kaw, so we would expect it to come from them. Curtis was 1/8 Kaw and considered the Kaws as his tribe. They are the ones he spent several of his early years with, between age 3 and 13. He was, however, also 1/8 Osage, and there was some Potawatomi ancestry on his mother's side too. It turns out he clearly had more Indian ancestry and cultural contact during his most formative years than most historians have given him credit for. Sources say he knew the Kaw language and that he also knew French since he attended the French mission school on the reservation at Council Grove, KS. Bob From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Fri Aug 1 15:40:09 2003 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 10:40:09 -0500 Subject: It's Osage:-) In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164D0E@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I agree with Bob's statements just below: Bob wrote: I conclude that the language is Osage, but with all the demonstrated La Fleschean tendencies to fill in inflected forms from Omaha. This is so clear that I tend to agree that the donors of the chair were probably referred to La Flesche at the Bureau as a person who could do the translation for them. Kkodha/kkoya would be the form of choice. Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 10:23 AM To: 'siouan at lists.colorado.edu' Subject: RE: Chair > The usual term for 'male friend' in OP in all recorded periods is khage, even though learned linguists might recognize kku/odha. Good point. Khage in Kaw and Osage don't have that meaning/usage AFAIK. Kkodha/kkoya would be the form of choice. I fear we are at an impass in the case of MONI. It may be a second person form (Carolyn's OS speakers gave some imperatives or adhortatives with second person inflection. I thought it was a semi-speaker phenomenon, but it may be older.) But even if this is an ordinary imperative, the tendency to have dh > [n], or something that sounds very much like n, between two nasal vowels may make this question impossible to decide. It's still the bottom part that troubles me most. I suspect that it is indeed something like "We wish it - declarative', but the pronominal location remains annoying, as does the initial K instead of G. I conclude that the language is Osage, but with all the demonstrated La Fleschean tendencies to fill in inflected forms from Omaha. This is so clear that I tend to agree that the donors of the chair were probably referred to La Flesche at the Bureau as a person who could do the translation for them. I told John Boyle I'd try to sum all this up at the meeting, so, with any luck, you'll all have another little co-authored paper to put on your vita. Bob From parksd at indiana.edu Fri Aug 1 16:40:37 2003 From: parksd at indiana.edu (Parks, Douglas R.) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:40:37 -0500 Subject: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference Message-ID: Randy, Thanks for the update. I hope you don't mind my reading mail intended for Jimm. :) Doug ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - FIGHT BACK AGAINST SPAM! Download Spam Inspector, the Award Winning Anti-Spam Filter http://mail.giantcompany.com -----Original Message----- From: Rgraczyk at aol.com [mailto:Rgraczyk at aol.com] Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 10:17 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference Jimm: My grammar of Crow is in the final stages--it's due at the publishers (U of Nebraska Press) by the end of the year. Randy From goodtracks at GBRonline.com Fri Aug 1 16:44:42 2003 From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:44:42 -0500 Subject: PMV 'want' Message-ID: John: IO guNna < guNra (1S haguN=ta; 2S raguNsda) Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: "Siouan List" Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 8:29 AM Subject: PMV 'want' > This is a quick survey of 'want' across Mississippi Valley Siouan. > > All Dhegiha has *...kuN=...ra (A1 p-kuN=p-ra) > > OP ...gaN=...dha (A1 kkaN=bdha) > Os ...koN=...dha (A1 kkoN=bra) > Ks ...goN=...ya (A1 *kkoN=bla) > Qu ...koN=...da (A1 kkoN=pda) > > Having kk rather than pp in the first person is unusual all the other (not > many) k-stems have pp in the first person, e.g., OP gaghe (A1 ppaghe). > > Ioway-Otoe has: > > IO guN=...na (< *kuN=...ra) or guN=...ra (Marsh) > > I *think* only the second element is inflected, but this form is not > presented anywhere with a paradigm that I have seen. The first person is > probably something like A1 *guNada, by analogy with other r-stems, but > this is not certain. (R-stem first persons have both regular and r-stem > inflection, a-d... < ha A1 + R, R from p-r, where p is also A1.) > > Winnebago has: > > Wi roo=guN (A1 ru=aguN) > > In other words, the root is guN, inflected regularly. The preverb roo=, > ru= is not understood. Since Marino has hiroguN(xjije) 'to desire, want', > I wonder if this roo= might be from hiro- (like Dakota iyo- or OP udhu-). > > Dakotan has: > > Da kuN (A1 wakuN) > > There is also a diminutivized form khuN=la, but the =la is the Dakotan > diminutive (< *Ra) and not cognate with the =ra in Dhegiha and Ioway-Otoe. > > The Dakota form has one small irregularity, in that it is not palatalized > when inflection or derivaiton places an /i/ before the kh, e.g., nikuN 'he > coverts thee', not expected *nic^uN (Boas & Deloria 1941:14). I have > sometimes wondered if this might be connected with the kk rather than pp > phenomenon in Dhegiha, but I can't see how that would be, frankly. > > > ==== > > LaFlesche lists for Osage k.oN /kkoN/ 'to wish or to desire' (LaF 88b). > I am pretty sure this is a ghost. LaFlesche includes little pieces of > earlier work, not always transcribed under the system he uses himself, > or, at least, not properly adapted to it. Thus, looking around you > find a few dh-stems inflected the Osage way where LaFlesche himself > always uses the Omaha way. > > Dorsey used dotted letters (a small x under the letter in manuscript) or > turned letters (in print) to represent his conception of sonant-surds, > i.e., with stops, to indicate voiceless aspirates. In OP he distinguishes > g : k. : k corresponding to what we write g : kk : k (or g : k : kH in the > current popular orthographies, H representing raised h). In Os, where the > lax stops (g) are devoiced, he writes k. : k. : k, usually adding h. > (turned h) before the tense variant of k. and usually adding opening > apostrophe or x or c (s^) after the aspirates, leading to k. : h.k. : kx ~ > kc in practice. > > LaFlesche, having a native speakers appreciation of things, usually writes > (in his final system) g : k. : k in both OP and Osage, generally adding sh > after aspirates before i and e, so, in practice in Osage g : k. : k ~ ksh. > Thus he uses dotted letters (now a proper dot in both manuscript and > print) to represent tenseness rather than > voicelessness-without-aspiration. Sometimes he leaves off the dot under > tense stops, probably an oversight. In his work with Alice Fletcher all > the dots were left off. I have seen at least one manuscript page (the > list of river names) in which they are present, so I suspect the problem > here lies with Fletcher or the GPO, not with LaFlesche. > > What I think happened with "k.oN" is that a form "k.oN" transcribed by > Dorsey, representing koN, was taken over without revising it to "goN," > leading to a false impression that it represents kkoN. In short, "k.oN" > in this entry represents koN, probably accidentally shorn from koNdha or > one of the more exaotic forms Rory has mentioned, though I don't know fi > these are actually attested for Osage. The failure to revise the foirm to > goN is at least partly due, probably, to LaFlesche failing to recognize > the form at all. This is a hypothesis, of course. It might be > resolvable with reference to the manuscript of LaFlesche's dictionary, or > Dorsey's Osage slips. > > > JEK > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Aug 1 17:12:42 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:12:42 -0600 Subject: PMV 'want' In-Reply-To: <005a01c3584c$49269550$aae2bfcf@JIMM> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Aug 2003, Jimm GoodTracks wrote: > IO guNna < guNra (1S haguN=ta; 2S raguNsda) So it's doubly inflected, once on each stem, regular on guN, and r-stem (without pleonastic regular) on the second. Like Dhegiha, except for the guN stem being regular. Different from Winnebago, except that Winnebago also has guN regular. You could argue that -ra was lost or hasn't been added. Except for that roo= (hiro-) Winnebago is like Dakotan, too. Kind of an unusual isogloss, though hard to definitively read into PMV. JEK From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Fri Aug 1 18:58:26 2003 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 19:58:26 +0100 Subject: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jonathan Did you get my abstract? Bruce On 30 Jul 2003, at 16:42, John Boyle wrote: Date sent: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 16:42:18 -0500 Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: John Boyle To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference > Hi everyone, > > I too would like to know what the schedule will look like. I only > received a few (four) abstracts. I'm hoping we can do better than > that. Could all those interested in presenting a paper send me a > title (an abstract is optional but would be appreciated). In > addition, could those attending but not presenting a paper let me > know, so that we know about how many to expect. I would like to urge > everyone to present something - remember we are a rather informal lot > so it doesn't need to be polished. In addition, anyone interested in > getting together on Thursday for a mini-workshop on syntax let me > know so we can find someplace (other than the local coffee shop) to > have it. > > Thanks, > > I look forward to hearing from MANY people. > > Best wishes, > > John Boyle > Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Fri Aug 1 19:00:26 2003 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:00:26 +0100 Subject: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164D07@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I'll be arriving on the 7th to the Clarion hotel. Will have a car and will look out for any sign of a syntax workshop. Looking forward to seeing you all Bruce On 30 Jul 2003, at 15:56, Rankin, Robert L wrote: Date sent: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 15:56:19 -0500 Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: "'siouan at lists.colorado.edu'" Subject: RE: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference > I have told John Koontz I'll pick him up at the Lansing airport where he is > arriving August 6 at 6:58 p.m. If anyone else is flying in at around that > time, I'd be happy to pick them up too and drive them to the motel in East > Lansing. Please let me know if you'll want a ride around 7 p.m. or shortly > thereafter (we can wait around for a little while if there are other > arrivals somewhat later). > > I too would like to know a little about what the schedule looks like. > > Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC [mailto:CaRudin1 at wsc.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 3:39 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference > > > > Is conference planning far enough along that we could have a rough outline > of the schedule? It would be helpful for travel planning to know if the > conference will take the full three days or will start Thursday evening and > end Saturday morning or what. > > The "chair" discussion was fun -- though I didn't contribute I enjoyed > reading it. You guys seemed to have the problem pretty well solved by the > time I checked my email... > > Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 1 19:58:48 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 14:58:48 -0500 Subject: PMV 'want' Message-ID: OK, how about the $64 question . . . what is it in the 1st dual and/or plural form? Are both parts inflected there, or just the first one? Bob -----Original Message----- From: Jimm GoodTracks [mailto:goodtracks at GBRonline.com] Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 11:45 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: PMV 'want' John: IO guNna < guNra (1S haguN=ta; 2S raguNsda) Jimm From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Aug 1 20:19:23 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 14:19:23 -0600 Subject: PMV 'want' In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D165B91@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Aug 2003, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > OK, how about the $64 question . . . what is it in the 1st dual and/or > plural form? Are both parts inflected there, or just the first one? Otherwise known as the A12 question ... I omitted this in my summary of the other languages, too. The issue here is that in forms like OP ...gaN=...dha where the attested form is aNgaNdha, it's impossible to be sure if the form is aN-gaN=aN-dha or aN-gaN=dha. The former might or might not be distinguishable as aNgaNaNdha if length were being heard. In Winnebago and Dakotan the issue doesn't arrise, though what the form is might be an interesting question in Winnebago with its preverb roo= ~ ru= (< hiro- ?). A similar issue arises with maNdhiN: A1 maNbdhiN, A2 maNhniN, A3 maNdhiN=i, aNmaN(aN?)dhiN=i. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Aug 2 06:51:35 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 00:51:35 -0600 Subject: Want and Hope in OP Message-ID: I have completed my investigation into OP 'want' for now. The simple verb, translated 'desire, wish' by Dorsey or his translators, is A1 kkaN'=bdha A2 s^kaN'=s^na ~ s^kaN'=hna ~ s^kaN'=na A3 gaN'=dha A12 aNgaN'=dha=i As far as other forms I did find wikkaN'=bdha=hnaN=maN 'I invariably desire you' (1890:176.17) dhigaN'=dha=b=az^i 'not desiring you' (1890:406.9) The wi is the analog of Dakotan c^hi. So, the object precedes the first stem in OP. The verb can take an animate object as in 'desire you' or 'desire her', or a plural object as in kkaN'=bdha=i 'I want them'. The more and less elaborate forms, translated 'hope' by Dorsey, are attested in a limited range of forms in the texts. Starting with the latter, it appears that when a'=bi=ama 'he said (quotative)' follows, you get: A1 kkaN 'I hope' JOD 1890:44.12-13 E'skana, wini'si, s^iN'gaz^iNga ukki'a=i Oh that my offspring children they talk with each other i'e thi=gdha'gdha= ma e'gaN kkaN', a'=bi=ama. they speak they begin repeatedly the so I hope he said Oh, I hope that my children are the kind of children who begin to speak a lot," he said. The formula with e'ska(na) .. some wish ... followed by some form meaning 'I hope' or 'I wish' is common in the texts. Dorsey renders the initial particle 'oh that' or 'would that' or 'I hope' (the last less satisfactory). Judging by glosses of =ska and e=ska in various Siouan languages, it is something like 'perhaps'. The first longer form is: A1 kkaN'=bdh=egaN This might be kkaN=bdha + egaN, but I tend to agree with Rory that it is probably a form of e=dh(e)=e'gaN 'to think'. This last is inflected: A1 e=bdh=e'gaN A2 e=s^n=e'gaN(=i) A3 e=dh=e'gaN A12 aNdhaN'dha=i (cf. aNdhaN'=i 'we said') The inclusive seems to imply an underlying stem i-dhe. For 'say' the inclusive stem could be i- or dhaN. The latter is perhaps more plausible ... A possible third person occurs in 1890:152.19 na'=t?e eskaN' edh=e'gaN dead of heat "she" "hoped he was" Here the quoted glossing is Dorsey's and seems unlikely. I think this form actually goes with forms like A1 eskaN bdh=egaN 'I expect that ...; I thought it might be that ...' A3 eskaN edh=e'gaN=i 'they thought it might be that ...' A12 eskaN aNdhaNdha=i 'we think it is so; we think that' The second longer form is: A1 kkaN'(=)e=bdh=egaN Here, however, we have a lot of inclusives to compare with. A12 kkaN'(=)aNdhaNdha=i 'we hope' Note that the puzzling form following kkaN' is 'we think' (see above). Concerning the puzzling kkaN I can only say that I am puzzled. This is not the first person, clearly, though it might be by analogy with the first person form. I don't know of any cognates for any of this, and there are no second or third persons in the texts. It does certainly look like this form and therefore probably the first one, begin with kkaN. Note that eskaN is behaving like a replacement for the e= of think in the first person of eskaN + think. In first longer alternative (kkaN=bdh=egaN), kkaN seems to replace e=. However, e= resurfaces in the second form. Perhaps this is our hint that some sort of reanalysis is at work here. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From goodtracks at GBRonline.com Sat Aug 2 15:16:44 2003 From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 10:16:44 -0500 Subject: PMV 'want' (IOM) Message-ID: Bob: IO guNna < guNra (1S haguN=ta; 2S raguNsda) Dual: IO guNna < guNra (hiNguN=ra) Plural: IO guNna < guNra (1P hiNguN=rawi) IO guNna < guNra (2P raguNsdawi) IO guNna < guNra (3P guN=ranye) ; [ny = n ~ / (ñ)] Dual Plural: IO guNna < guNra (3p guN=rawi) Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 2:58 PM Subject: RE: PMV 'want' > OK, how about the $64 question . . . what is it in the 1st dual and/or > plural form? Are both parts inflected there, or just the first one? > > Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jimm GoodTracks [mailto:goodtracks at GBRonline.com] > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 11:45 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: PMV 'want' > > > John: > IO guNna < guNra (1S haguN=ta; 2S raguNsda) > > Jimm > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Aug 2 22:39:36 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 16:39:36 -0600 Subject: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Jul 2003, John Boyle wrote: > In addition, anyone interested in getting together on Thursday for a > mini-workshop on syntax let me know so we can find someplace (other > than the local coffee shop) to have it. I'll definitely be there on Thursday. I don't plan to have a separate presentation per se, but I'll try to bring something. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Aug 2 23:01:30 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 17:01:30 -0600 Subject: Native American verbs vs. nouns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Cleaning a few things up I found this unanswered inquiry from Rory Larson. On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu wrote: > >> Definitions needed, preferably with examples: > >> > >> Head ... It occurs to me that I should just have referred Rory's request to the list. I'm probably not the person to be trying to offer a rapid sketch of modern syntactic theory and terminology. Some might question my ability to this for even ancient syntactic theory and terminology. Maybe Katherine or Ardis - maybe next Thursday. Anyway, if Rory is going to be there - I think Katherine is - I'll be glad to get the refresher course myself. John (Boyle) - you keep organizing syntax sessions - how about you? I think in the context of the list, at least, and given his intimacy with libraries that a few suggested references might be easiest ... > In any case, a listing of "head" relationships doesn't answer > my question: What is a "head" in essence? What chain of > reasoning leads us to the concept of a "head"? > > I don't have any problem with using the term "head" for the > noun in a noun phrase that all the determiners, adjectives, > prepositional phrases, relative clauses, genitives and > qualifying nouns attach to; it seems like a useful word here. > My issue is with extrapolating this to verb chains and > prepositions, etc. From munro at ucla.edu Sat Aug 2 23:46:13 2003 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 16:46:13 -0700 Subject: double inflection Message-ID: I'd like to know the current feeling of Siouan specialists about double inflection for subject in verbs like Lakhtoa Ibláble 'I left' (with two -bl- subject markers), which is cited in some theoretical literature on double inflection. Although I feel I have a handle on this descriptively I confess that I haven't thought further about the best analysis, and perhaps some of you have. Jason Riggle and I are preparing a paper on double plural inflection in Pima (a Uto-Aztecan language) where the words in question have clearly been analyzed as compounds, with each section receiving its own plural marking. Is there a compound analysis of the Siouan verbs? Thanks, Pam Pamela Munro, Linguistics, UCLA From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Sun Aug 3 01:06:07 2003 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 20:06:07 -0500 Subject: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference Message-ID: I also plan to be there for whatever happens on the 7th, and I've written up a kind of sketchy outline of issues in "juncture" that we might be able to use as a springboard for discussion. Looks like none of us is really doing a formal presentation for the "parasession", but the informal discussions are sometimes the best. I've got motel reservation starting the 7th, but will probably actually arrive on the evening of the 6th. Driving from Nebraska, so timing is iffy... Hope to run into you all at the motel on the 6th or 7th -- Catherine To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu cc: bcc: Subject: Re: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference Koontz John E Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 08/02/2003 04:39 PM Please respond to siouan On Wed, 30 Jul 2003, John Boyle wrote: > In addition, anyone interested in getting together on Thursday for a > mini-workshop on syntax let me know so we can find someplace (other > than the local coffee shop) to have it. I'll definitely be there on Thursday. I don't plan to have a separate presentation per se, but I'll try to bring something. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 3 01:10:10 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 19:10:10 -0600 Subject: double inflection In-Reply-To: <3F2C4D45.9040209@ucla.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Aug 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: > I'd like to know the current feeling of Siouan specialists about double > inflection for subject in verbs like Lakhtoa Ibláble 'I left' (with two > -bl- subject markers), which is cited in some theoretical literature on > double inflection. > > ... > > Is there a compound analysis of the Siouan verbs? A good reference here might be Allan Taylor's survey of the Siouan motion verbs, which is in IJAL. I think the year is (or was) 1976. There are a heck of a lot more compound froms than he lists, at least in individual languages, but he covers the core of the motion verb system. I believe that everyone considers these verbs to be compound (in this case, essentially reduplicated) in terms of a historical explanation. I don't know that it would be safe to claim that everyone does this in synchronic descriptions. I'm lamentably out of touch with the current (last 20-30 years?) literature on Dakotan morphology, in spite of Trudi Patterson and others' attempts to correct that deficiency. I think Trudi's dissertation would be one place to look. In general terms, Mississippi Valley languages do a lot of compounding of motion verbs and positional verbs, both as main verbs and as aspectual auxililaries, and in such compounds usually both elements are inflected, unless a causative is added to the mix and preempts the lower level inflection. There are also some non-motion lexical verbs that involve such compounds. We've been discussing gaN=dha 'to want', for example, and there are a number of others in Dhegiha languages. Diachronically these are often stable, but they do show some tendency to develop into either infixing or prefixing verbs with a single inflection. It's instructive to collect descriptions of the paradigm of hiyu from different souces, for example. Apart from essentially lexicalized compound forms like these there are also other kinds of double inflection. Less regular (syncopating) paradigms are often supplemented with a set of regular pronominals in front of the irregular ones, e.g., modern OP attaNbe, dhas^taNbe, daNba=i, aNdaNba=i (A1, A2, A3, A12 of 'see') with a-t-, dha-s^- in first and second person. IO and Winnebago do this pervasively in some paradigms. And everywhere the A1P2 portmanteau is almst always added over the A1 form of irregular stems, e.g., OP wikkaNbdha 'I desire you' < gaNdha 'to desire, wish'. Auxiliaries in general are usually separately inflected from the main verb, e.g., the Crow and Hidatsa future, or in OP that inflected positional that follows the future enclitic in many contexts. The OP negative (all Dhegiha negatives, in fact), has a sort of pseudo-inflection that seems to be made up of a fusions of an old auxiliary and the plural marker with the negative enclitic. Certain postverbal adverbial enclitics in OP also regularly require an inflected auxiliary to "support them," e.g., a-t-taNbe=m(aN)=az^i=xti=m-aN 'I really don't see it' in which a-t- and the two m- are first persons. Finally, in OP and other languages the dative, possessive, and reflexive paradigms of syncopating (irregular) stems exhibit a pattern involving inflection of both the underlying stem and the derivational prefix, e.g., for gaghe 'to make', the dative is eppaghe, dhes^kaghe, giagha=i, iNgagha=i, in which e and dhe are from the regular pronominals a and dha with contracted gi, and the underlying stem is also inflected, cf. the non-dative forms ppaghe, s^kaghe, gagha=i, aNgagha=i. In the possessives and reflexives the "inside" inflection of the first and second person alternates with an additional -k- in the third person. What you get is (reflexive of gaghe, sense 'make for self') akkippaghe, dhakkis^kaghe, kkikkagha=i, aNkkikkagha=i. This is relevant to an idea I've been exploring off and on in Omaha-Ponca, though it works for other Mississippi Valley Siouan langauges like Dakotan, of seeing verb forms as consisting (potentially, and actually pretty frequently in fact) of sequences of lower level forms. The rules of inflection and derivation apply to these lower level forms, though derivational processes often compress two lower level forms into a single one, e.g., by treating a lower level sequence of preverb and root as a single root when some prefixes are added. This scheme seems to keep me from going crazy trying to explain the rules of pronominalization and derivation, which is not the case if the compounds and other multi-stem forms are treated as single chunks. It also seems to help in predicting accentuation, at least in OP. I don't know whether this will help with plurals, as plural markers are the one thing that Siouan languages seem to feel you need only one of, no matter how many things are pluralized. JEK From kdshea at ku.edu Sun Aug 3 01:45:59 2003 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 20:45:59 -0500 Subject: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference Message-ID: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan ConferenceHi, John, and everyone, I'll be attending SACC and the mini-workshop on syntax on Thursday, and I'll be arriving around 2 pm Wednesday in Detroit from Kansas City, renting a car, and leaving from Detroit about 2pm on Sunday. (The reason I'm landing in Detroit and not Lansing is that I have a free ticket on Southwest Airlines that I would like to use.) If anyone needs a ride, please let me know, and I'll try to link up with you. I'll be staying at the Kellogg Center on campus, because I was unable to get the conference rate at the Clarion at the late date I called for reservations. Although I won't be giving a paper, I'm looking forward to seeing everyone and participating. Once you know how many to expect for the mini-workshop, is there a way that we can find out when and where it will be? Kathy Shea ----- Original Message ----- From: John Boyle To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 4:42 PM Subject: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference Hi everyone, I too would like to know what the schedule will look like. I only received a few (four) abstracts. I'm hoping we can do better than that. Could all those interested in presenting a paper send me a title (an abstract is optional but would be appreciated). In addition, could those attending but not presenting a paper let me know, so that we know about how many to expect. I would like to urge everyone to present something - remember we are a rather informal lot so it doesn't need to be polished. In addition, anyone interested in getting together on Thursday for a mini-workshop on syntax let me know so we can find someplace (other than the local coffee shop) to have it. Thanks, I look forward to hearing from MANY people. Best wishes, John Boyle -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From munro at ucla.edu Sun Aug 3 01:49:03 2003 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 18:49:03 -0700 Subject: double inflection Message-ID: John, Thanks so much for this extremely helpful survey of things I probably should have known! Of course this is not directly parallel to what we're looking at, but it's good to have other nice examples where compounds show double inflection of any kind. (In English, for example, they generally do not, with the exception of cases like fixer-uper, which is an unusual case.) Pam Koontz John E wrote: >On Sat, 2 Aug 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: > > >>I'd like to know the current feeling of Siouan specialists about double >>inflection for subject in verbs like Lakhtoa Ibláble 'I left' (with two >>-bl- subject markers), which is cited in some theoretical literature on >>double inflection. >> >>... >> >>Is there a compound analysis of the Siouan verbs? >> >> > >A good reference here might be Allan Taylor's survey of the Siouan motion >verbs, which is in IJAL. I think the year is (or was) 1976. There are a >heck of a lot more compound froms than he lists, at least in individual >languages, but he covers the core of the motion verb system. > >I believe that everyone considers these verbs to be compound (in this >case, essentially reduplicated) in terms of a historical explanation. I >don't know that it would be safe to claim that everyone does this in >synchronic descriptions. I'm lamentably out of touch with the current >(last 20-30 years?) literature on Dakotan morphology, in spite of Trudi >Patterson and others' attempts to correct that deficiency. I think >Trudi's dissertation would be one place to look. > >In general terms, Mississippi Valley languages do a lot of compounding of >motion verbs and positional verbs, both as main verbs and as aspectual >auxililaries, and in such compounds usually both elements are inflected, >unless a causative is added to the mix and preempts the lower level >inflection. There are also some non-motion lexical verbs that involve >such compounds. We've been discussing gaN=dha 'to want', for example, and >there are a number of others in Dhegiha languages. Diachronically these >are often stable, but they do show some tendency to develop into either >infixing or prefixing verbs with a single inflection. It's instructive to >collect descriptions of the paradigm of hiyu from different souces, for >example. > >Apart from essentially lexicalized compound forms like these there are >also other kinds of double inflection. Less regular (syncopating) >paradigms are often supplemented with a set of regular pronominals in >front of the irregular ones, e.g., modern OP attaNbe, dhas^taNbe, daNba=i, >aNdaNba=i (A1, A2, A3, A12 of 'see') with a-t-, dha-s^- in first and >second person. IO and Winnebago do this pervasively in some paradigms. >And everywhere the A1P2 portmanteau is almst always added over the A1 form >of irregular stems, e.g., OP wikkaNbdha 'I desire you' < gaNdha 'to >desire, wish'. > >Auxiliaries in general are usually separately inflected from the main >verb, e.g., the Crow and Hidatsa future, or in OP that inflected >positional that follows the future enclitic in many contexts. > >The OP negative (all Dhegiha negatives, in fact), has a sort of >pseudo-inflection that seems to be made up of a fusions of an old >auxiliary and the plural marker with the negative enclitic. Certain >postverbal adverbial enclitics in OP also regularly require an inflected >auxiliary to "support them," e.g., a-t-taNbe=m(aN)=az^i=xti=m-aN 'I really >don't see it' in which a-t- and the two m- are first persons. > >Finally, in OP and other languages the dative, possessive, and reflexive >paradigms of syncopating (irregular) stems exhibit a pattern involving >inflection of both the underlying stem and the derivational prefix, e.g., >for gaghe 'to make', the dative is eppaghe, dhes^kaghe, giagha=i, >iNgagha=i, in which e and dhe are from the regular pronominals a and dha >with contracted gi, and the underlying stem is also inflected, cf. the >non-dative forms ppaghe, s^kaghe, gagha=i, aNgagha=i. In the possessives >and reflexives the "inside" inflection of the first and second person >alternates with an additional -k- in the third person. What you get is >(reflexive of gaghe, sense 'make for self') akkippaghe, dhakkis^kaghe, >kkikkagha=i, aNkkikkagha=i. > >This is relevant to an idea I've been exploring off and on in Omaha-Ponca, >though it works for other Mississippi Valley Siouan langauges like >Dakotan, of seeing verb forms as consisting (potentially, and actually >pretty frequently in fact) of sequences of lower level forms. The rules >of inflection and derivation apply to these lower level forms, though >derivational processes often compress two lower level forms into a single >one, e.g., by treating a lower level sequence of preverb and root as a >single root when some prefixes are added. This scheme seems to keep me >from going crazy trying to explain the rules of pronominalization and >derivation, which is not the case if the compounds and other multi-stem >forms are treated as single chunks. It also seems to help in predicting >accentuation, at least in OP. > >I don't know whether this will help with plurals, as plural markers are >the one thing that Siouan languages seem to feel you need only one of, no >matter how many things are pluralized. > >JEK > > > > > -- ---- Pamela Munro Professor, Department of Linguistics, UCLA UCLA Box 951543 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 USA http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/linguistics/people/munro/munro.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mary.marino at usask.ca Sun Aug 3 04:49:15 2003 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Mary Marino) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 22:49:15 -0600 Subject: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi John, I will be attending the conference. i will arrive in Lansing at 9:18 pm on Wednesday and am booked at the Clarion. I want to attend the session on syntax on Thursday. I promised Linda Cumberland that I would collect a set of handouts for her, since she will be unable to come, so I want to attend whatever sessions we have. Will there be a central place for messages, etc. at the Clarion? Mary Marino At 04:42 PM 7/30/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Hi everyone, > >I too would like to know what the schedule will look like. I only >received a few (four) abstracts. I'm hoping we can do better than >that. Could all those interested in presenting a paper send me a title >(an abstract is optional but would be appreciated). In addition, could >those attending but not presenting a paper let me know, so that we know >about how many to expect. I would like to urge everyone to present >something - remember we are a rather informal lot so it doesn't need to be >polished. In addition, anyone interested in getting together on Thursday >for a mini-workshop on syntax let me know so we can find someplace (other >than the local coffee shop) to have it. > >Thanks, > >I look forward to hearing from MANY people. > >Best wishes, > >John Boyle From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Sun Aug 3 14:42:44 2003 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 08:42:44 -0600 Subject: double inflection In-Reply-To: <3F2C4D45.9040209@ucla.edu> Message-ID: I haven't thought about this theoretically -- conjugational irregularities don't bother me much when I can see a vague historical justification for them, and allow for a combination of speakers' ability to analogize and to memorize as they acquire their language. People DO know the historical forms of their language because they memorize them as units. Below are a few comments on the historical/etymological facts, however, most of which you probably already know fully. For most of the doubly inflected Lakota verbs, there is a clear compound etymology and inflection of both parts, but there are lots of wrinkles. Iblable is from iyaya, the compound of i and ya, with the unexpected reduplication of ya 'go', but the paradigm is not in accord with the compound analysis. THe 'start' verbs are all compounds of 'arrive + move', so this i must be 'arrive going', and historically we would expect *wa'ible for this form -- but it doesn't happen that way. A similar i- initial verb is iyanka 'run' (wa'imnake 'I run'), but the inflection is in a different place there. The only candidate I know of for that i- is the same 'to arrive going', and that doesn't make semantic sense there. Older records for hiyu 'start coming' conjugate it wahibu, but no one does that any more as far as I know (today it's wahiyu). That of course is a compound of hi and u. The suus forms of the compound verbs have a further quirk that's unique to them as far as I know: glicu 'start coming home' adds an extra -ya- syllable between the parts when there's an inflectional prefix, so you say both wagliyaku and yagliyaku. Clearly this is NOT double inflection, but I have no idea what it is. Similarly khigla (note that this one is NOT reduplicated, though it's the compound of the suus forms of i and ya), is wakhiyagle. The same -ya- shows up with the a- prefix that marks collective subject for motion verbs: 'they started for home here' is agliyaku. This could be double inflection with epenthetic /y/, of course, and may be the source of the analogy for the other forms, but I'm not sure I want to advocate that analysis. On the other hand, there are lots of compounds that do not inflect both parts -- those with the -ya causative and the -shi 'command' come immedidately to mind, as well as all the nonce (syntactic?) constructions with motion verbs second and things like eya-lowan '(s)he said, singing', which I think would be eya-walowan in the first person, though that should be verfied before being cited. I don't think this is much help, but it's fun to reveiw these problems once in a while. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Sat, 2 Aug 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: > I'd like to know the current feeling of Siouan specialists about double > inflection for subject in verbs like Lakhtoa Ibl�ble 'I left' (with two > -bl- subject markers), which is cited in some theoretical literature on > double inflection. > > Although I feel I have a handle on this descriptively I confess that I > haven't thought further about the best analysis, and perhaps some of you > have. > > Jason Riggle and I are preparing a paper on double plural inflection in > Pima (a Uto-Aztecan language) where the words in question have clearly > been analyzed as compounds, with each section receiving its own plural > marking. > > Is there a compound analysis of the Siouan verbs? > > Thanks, > Pam > > Pamela Munro, Linguistics, UCLA > From munro at ucla.edu Sun Aug 3 15:19:45 2003 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 08:19:45 -0700 Subject: double inflection Message-ID: Dear David and Siouanists, This is actually interesting in terms of my question, since although there are two inflections in this compound, as you explain it, the two inflections both occur in the ya part, not the i part with which it is compounded. But normally we do not see double inflection in reduplicated verbs, even monosyllabic ones. (In Jason's and my data, the unexpected double marking is in fact reduplication, but I don't see any other immediate connections.) Thanks again so much to you and John for clarifying helping me understand this extremely interesting data. Pam ROOD DAVID S wrote: >I haven't thought about this theoretically -- conjugational irregularities >don't bother me much when I can see a vague historical justification for >them, and allow for a combination of speakers' ability to analogize and to >memorize as they acquire their language. People DO know the historical >forms of their language because they memorize them as units. Below are a >few comments on the historical/etymological facts, however, most of which >you probably already know fully. > >For most of the doubly inflected Lakota verbs, there is a clear compound >etymology and inflection of both parts, but there are lots of wrinkles. >Iblable is from iyaya, the compound of i and ya, with the unexpected >reduplication of ya 'go', but the paradigm is not in accord with the >compound analysis. THe 'start' verbs are all compounds of 'arrive + >move', so this i must be 'arrive going', and historically we would expect >*wa'ible for this form -- but it doesn't happen that way. A similar i- >initial verb is iyanka 'run' (wa'imnake 'I run'), but the inflection is in >a different place there. The only candidate I know of for that i- is the >same 'to arrive going', and that doesn't make semantic sense there. >Older records for hiyu 'start coming' conjugate it wahibu, but no one does >that any more as far as I know (today it's wahiyu). That of course is a >compound of hi and u. The suus forms of the compound verbs have a further >quirk that's unique to them as far as I know: glicu 'start coming home' >adds an extra -ya- syllable between the parts when there's an inflectional >prefix, so you say both wagliyaku and yagliyaku. Clearly this is NOT >double inflection, but I have no idea what it is. Similarly khigla (note >that this one is NOT reduplicated, though it's the compound of the suus >forms of i and ya), is wakhiyagle. The same -ya- shows up with the a- >prefix that marks collective subject for motion verbs: 'they started for >home here' is agliyaku. This could be double inflection with epenthetic >/y/, of course, and may be the source of the analogy for the other forms, >but I'm not sure I want to advocate that analysis. > On the other hand, there are lots of compounds that do not inflect >both parts -- those with the -ya causative and the -shi 'command' come >immedidately to mind, as well as all the nonce (syntactic?) constructions >with motion verbs second and things like eya-lowan '(s)he said, singing', >which I think would be eya-walowan in the first person, though that should >be verfied before being cited. > >I don't think this is much help, but it's fun to reveiw these problems >once in a while. > >David > > >David S. Rood >Dept. of Linguistics >Univ. of Colorado >295 UCB >Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >USA >rood at colorado.edu > >On Sat, 2 Aug 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: > > > >>I'd like to know the current feeling of Siouan specialists about double >>inflection for subject in verbs like Lakhtoa Ibl?ble 'I left' (with two >>-bl- subject markers), which is cited in some theoretical literature on >>double inflection. >> >>Although I feel I have a handle on this descriptively I confess that I >>haven't thought further about the best analysis, and perhaps some of you >>have. >> >>Jason Riggle and I are preparing a paper on double plural inflection in >>Pima (a Uto-Aztecan language) where the words in question have clearly >>been analyzed as compounds, with each section receiving its own plural >>marking. >> >>Is there a compound analysis of the Siouan verbs? >> >>Thanks, >>Pam >> >>Pamela Munro, Linguistics, UCLA >> >> >> > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 3 16:05:39 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 10:05:39 -0600 Subject: double inflection In-Reply-To: <3F2D2811.4030708@ucla.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: > This is actually interesting in terms of my question, since although > there are two inflections in this compound, as you explain it, the two > inflections both occur in the ya part, not the i part with which it is > compounded. But normally we do not see double inflection in reduplicated > verbs, even monosyllabic ones. (In Jason's and my data, the unexpected > double marking is in fact reduplication, but I don't see any other > immediate connections.) David and Pam make a very good point here, and I am embarassed to have overlooked it. I do know one instance of reduplicated inflection in Omaha-Ponca, which involves the verb 'to say often'. Unfortunately, the only available form is a second person, which is es^e's^e (cf. 'to say' A1 ehe', A2 es^e', A3 a=i, A12 aNdhaN=i). Hypothetically, the first person might be *ehe'he. I'm not sure how a third person would be handled without suppletion. In fact, most 'say often' examples are based on the habitual enclitic =s^na ~ =hnaN ~ =na. This is a complex verb, morphologically, with suppletive stems, but the first and second persons seem to go back to *e=...he, so this is something like e=s^-he-s^-he. Since the h-stems are few and of limited productivity (this being an exception) and involve complicating preverbs in cases like this, it's hard to conceive that speakers handle inflection generatively. I think this very complexity is what allows the inflection to be included in the reduplication, so that we have es^e's^e rather than, perhaps *es^ehe. From BARudes at aol.com Sun Aug 3 16:18:44 2003 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 12:18:44 EDT Subject: double inflection Message-ID: Pam, I know you asked about the Siouan languages, but I thought you might want to know that double, as well as triple inflexion for subject also occurs in Catawba. In Catawba, subject inflexion is marked either by a prefix (which may appear as an initial consonant mutation on "irregular" verbs) or by a suffix. Prefix dat'aNre: 'I wash', yat'aNre: 'you (sg.) wash' (stem: -taN-) Mutation n'aNtire: 'I set it', y'aNtire: 'you (sg.) set' (stem: -waNt-) Suffix p'iksire: 'I fly', p'ikyire: 'you (sg.) fly' (stem: -pik-) When the double inflexion consists of two prefixes, it is clear that the verb form derives from a compound. ca:n'a:nire: 'I am going to see', ya:y'a:nire: 'you (sg.) are going to see' (stems: -ra:- 'go', -ka:ni- 'see') However, when the double inflexion consists of a prefix and a suffix, a "compound" explanation is not so clear. n'a?sire: 'I get it', y'a?yire: 'you (sg.) get it' (stem: -ra- 'get'; compare náre: 'I am getting it', y'are: 'you (sg.) are getting it') Triple inflected verbs are even less susceptible to a compound analysis. cun'a?sire: 'I pick it up', yuy'a?yire: 'you (sg.) pick it up' (stem: -ru- 'by hand (instrumental prefix), -ra- 'get', -?- 'momentous aspect suffix') What appears to have happened was that, at some earlier date, the Catawba language possesses an auxiliary that was an independent word from the main verb, and both the main verb and the auxiliary could be inflected for subject. Later, the auxiliary fused to the main verb and became the suffixes (of which there can be many) on the main verb. Even after this occurred, the auxiliary retained its independent inflexion for subject which is now appears as a suffix on the verb. Blair From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 3 16:40:24 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 10:40:24 -0600 Subject: double inflection In-Reply-To: <3F2D2811.4030708@ucla.edu> Message-ID: In spite of my sally about Siouan languages not including multiple plurals, I've thought of a counter example. Those pseudo-inflected negatives in Dhegiha (or at least Omaha-Ponca) involve a plural form that can be pluralized. The forms are A1 =m=az^i perhaps from =maN=az^i, A2 singular and A3 singular obviative =az^i, plural and A3 singular proximate =b=az^i < =bi=az^i. The regular plural can follow this: dhahu'ni=b=az^i=*bi*=ama 'it did not draw him into its mouth, they say' hna'tha=b=az^i=*i*=a 'why do you (all) not eat' wiaN'bahaN=b=az^i=s^te=aN=*i* 'we do not know at all' (we know something not soever) aNdaN'ba=b=az^i=xti=aN=*i* 'we have not seen him at all' (we have very not seen him) It seems that the cases where =b=az^i occurs with nothing following might be (third singular) proximates with no following enclitics or cases followed by additional independent verbs that preempt the plural/proximate marking. I'm not sure that accounts for all the exceptions to double marking. It may provide a sort of test for enclisis, since declaratives - which Dorsey always writes as a separate word - don't seem to condition multiple plurals (but imperatives and interrogatives do). From munro at ucla.edu Sun Aug 3 16:46:05 2003 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 09:46:05 -0700 Subject: double inflection Message-ID: This is actually quite exciting, though not yet (I believe) immediately relevant to the UA case (though perhaps Jason will see a connection). What the reduplication of person marking in short verbs like ya reminds me more of is a case from Muskogean. The Muskogean languages, as Bob and perhaps many others of you know, have a series of verbal ablauts called grades which are used to mark aspect, e.g. the hn-grade of Chickasaw basha 'to be operated on' (I'll write nasalized vowels with capital letters): basha 'he is operated on' bahÁsha 'he gets operated on a lot' sabasha 'I am operated on' sabahÁsha 'I get operated on a lot' What reminds me of the Ibláble case is what happens with a verb like isso 'to hit': ihÍsso 'he hits him a lot' sahÁsso 'he hits me a lot' Grade formation generally operates on the penultimate vowel of the verb stem. But with a verb like sa-sso 'he hists me', that penultimate vowel is an inflectional prefix, so grade formation operates on it. Thus what seems to me to be the parallel to the reduplication of person-marked ya: normally these morphological rules want to operate on stems, but if they are dealing with a short stem they may target an inflectional marker. Pam Koontz John E wrote: >On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: > > >>This is actually interesting in terms of my question, since although >>there are two inflections in this compound, as you explain it, the two >>inflections both occur in the ya part, not the i part with which it is >>compounded. But normally we do not see double inflection in reduplicated >>verbs, even monosyllabic ones. (In Jason's and my data, the unexpected >>double marking is in fact reduplication, but I don't see any other >>immediate connections.) >> >> > >David and Pam make a very good point here, and I am embarassed to have >overlooked it. I do know one instance of reduplicated inflection in >Omaha-Ponca, which involves the verb 'to say often'. Unfortunately, the >only available form is a second person, which is es^e's^e (cf. 'to say' A1 >ehe', A2 es^e', A3 a=i, A12 aNdhaN=i). > >Hypothetically, the first person might be *ehe'he. I'm not sure how a >third person would be handled without suppletion. In fact, most 'say >often' examples are based on the habitual enclitic =s^na ~ =hnaN ~ =na. > >This is a complex verb, morphologically, with suppletive stems, but the >first and second persons seem to go back to *e=...he, so this is something >like e=s^-he-s^-he. Since the h-stems are few and of limited productivity >(this being an exception) and involve complicating preverbs in cases like >this, it's hard to conceive that speakers handle inflection generatively. >I think this very complexity is what allows the inflection to be included >in the reduplication, so that we have es^e's^e rather than, perhaps >*es^ehe. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 3 17:59:21 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 11:59:21 -0600 Subject: double inflection In-Reply-To: <3F2D3C4D.2060009@ucla.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: > What reminds me of the Ibláble case is what happens with a verb like > isso 'to hit': > > ihÍsso 'he hits him a lot' > sahÁsso 'he hits me a lot' > > Grade formation generally operates on the penultimate vowel of the verb > stem. But with a verb like sa-sso 'he hists me', that penultimate vowel > is an inflectional prefix, so grade formation operates on it. Thus what > seems to me to be the parallel to the reduplication of person-marked ya: > normally these morphological rules want to operate on stems, but if they > are dealing with a short stem they may target an inflectional marker. What interests me about this case is that it shows grade formation operating in some sense, anyway) after (perosnal) inflection. That's like the way that dative formation operates after (personal) inflection in Omaha-Ponca. Theorists generally hold that inflection follows derivation. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 3 18:58:58 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 12:58:58 -0600 Subject: double inflection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > For most of the doubly inflected Lakota verbs, there is a clear compound > etymology and inflection of both parts, but there are lots of wrinkles. > Iblable is from iyaya, the compound of i and ya, with the unexpected > reduplication of ya 'go', but the paradigm is not in accord with the > compound analysis. The 'start' verbs are all compounds of 'arrive + > move', so this i must be 'arrive going', and historically we would expect > *wa'ible for this form -- but it doesn't happen that way. As I said, I'm pretty embarrassed to have forgotten that this reduplication is unique to this stem in Dakotan! The parallel form in OP is idhe, generally rendered 'had gone' in Dorsey's texts. It does have a reduplicated form: i=dhadha. It appears in the third person as ai=adha=i (ai=adhadha=i). Inflected: A12 aNgai=adha=i. I don't have any other personal forms, but the inflection of the vertitive khi=gdhe is dhakhi=dhagdha=i 'you had gone back'. There is a vertitive gi=gdhe (agi=agdha=i) rendered 'arrive'. I suppose it's possible that Dakotan simply has an inherited iterative reduplication in lieu of the basic form in this slot. That would imply that it formerly had both forms in all relevant slots. The problem with that analysis is that then we'd expect *waiblaye (*waibleye?). Another alternative that has occurred to me was that something like *ai=aya might be reanalyzed as (a)iyaya. > A similar i- initial verb is iyanka 'run' (wa'imnake 'I run'), but the > inflection is in a different place there. The only candidate I know > of for that i- is the same 'to arrive going', and that doesn't make > semantic sense there. However, the inflectional pattern is more what I'd expect, based on hiyu below, and on Dhegiha. > Older records for hiyu 'start coming' conjugate it wahibu, but no one > does that any more as far as I know (today it's wahiyu). That of > course is a compound of hi and u. The suus forms of the compound > verbs have a further quirk that's unique to them as far as I know: > glicu 'start coming home' adds an extra -ya- syllable between the > parts when there's an inflectional prefix, so you say both wagliyaku > and yagliyaku. Clearly this is NOT double inflection, but I have no > idea what it is. Similarly khigla (note that this one is NOT > reduplicated, though it's the compound of the suus forms of i and ya), > is wakhiyagle. The same -ya- shows up with the a- prefix that marks > collective subject for motion verbs: 'they started for home here' is > agliyaku. This could be double inflection with epenthetic /y/, of > course, and may be the source of the analogy for the other forms, but > I'm not sure I want to advocate that analysis. This looks like a fossil remnant of the a-prefix on the third person, maybe wagliwaku/yagliyaku/agli(y)aku resulted in the first person changing to match the second and third person. > On the other hand, there are lots of compounds that do not inflect > both parts -- those with the -ya causative and the -shi 'command' come > immedidately to mind, In these cases I'd argue that the causative (and the -shi 'command' form in Dakotan) are among the rare cases where the higher predicate preempts the inflection of the lower verb. > as well as all the nonce (syntactic?) constructions with motion verbs > second and things like eya-lowan '(s)he said, singing', which I think > would be eya-walowan in the first person, though that should be > verfied before being cited. This is something that as far as I can recall has no parallel in Dhegiha. From munro at ucla.edu Sun Aug 3 21:39:54 2003 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 14:39:54 -0700 Subject: double inflection Message-ID: Wow -- interesting! Thanks! Koontz John E wrote: >In spite of my sally about Siouan languages not including multiple >plurals, I've thought of a counter example. Those pseudo-inflected >negatives in Dhegiha (or at least Omaha-Ponca) involve a plural form that >can be pluralized. The forms are A1 =m=az^i perhaps from =maN=az^i, A2 >singular and A3 singular obviative =az^i, plural and A3 singular proximate >=b=az^i < =bi=az^i. The regular plural can follow this: > >dhahu'ni=b=az^i=*bi*=ama 'it did not draw him into its mouth, they say' > >hna'tha=b=az^i=*i*=a 'why do you (all) not eat' > >wiaN'bahaN=b=az^i=s^te=aN=*i* 'we do not know at all' (we know something >not soever) > >aNdaN'ba=b=az^i=xti=aN=*i* 'we have not seen him at all' (we have very not >seen him) > >It seems that the cases where =b=az^i occurs with nothing following might >be (third singular) proximates with no following enclitics or cases >followed by additional independent verbs that preempt the plural/proximate >marking. I'm not sure that accounts for all the exceptions to double >marking. It may provide a sort of test for enclisis, since declaratives - >which Dorsey always writes as a separate word - don't seem to condition >multiple plurals (but imperatives and interrogatives do). > > > > > > From munro at ucla.edu Sun Aug 3 21:51:38 2003 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 14:51:38 -0700 Subject: double inflection Message-ID: Agreed, absolutely. I should have said that. The same would be true of the Siouan forms. That's what makes these so interesting to me. If the morphology does not have a long enough base to do its thing it can look ahead to inflection and borrow something. Pam Koontz John E wrote: >On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: > > >>What reminds me of the Ibláble case is what happens with a verb like >>isso 'to hit': >> >>ihÍsso 'he hits him a lot' >>sahÁsso 'he hits me a lot' >> >>Grade formation generally operates on the penultimate vowel of the verb >>stem. But with a verb like sa-sso 'he hists me', that penultimate vowel >>is an inflectional prefix, so grade formation operates on it. Thus what >>seems to me to be the parallel to the reduplication of person-marked ya: >>normally these morphological rules want to operate on stems, but if they >>are dealing with a short stem they may target an inflectional marker. >> >> > >What interests me about this case is that it shows grade formation >operating in some sense, anyway) after (perosnal) inflection. That's like >the way that dative formation operates after (personal) inflection in >Omaha-Ponca. Theorists generally hold that inflection follows derivation. > >JEK > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 3 22:22:19 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 16:22:19 -0600 Subject: double inflection In-Reply-To: <3F2D83EA.1080108@ucla.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: > Agreed, absolutely. I should have said that. The same would be true of > the Siouan forms. That's what makes these so interesting to me. If the > morphology does not have a long enough base to do its thing it can look > ahead to inflection and borrow something. > > > >What interests me about this case is that it shows grade formation > >operating in some sense, anyway) after (perosnal) inflection. That's like > >the way that dative formation operates after (personal) inflection in > >Omaha-Ponca. Theorists generally hold that inflection follows derivation. I'm not sure if I worded this clearly. Were you agreeing that it looked like - in this case - the grade formation process would have to be said to follow inflection in the process of creation of the form? That was the only way I could get the case of the Omaha-Ponca dative to make sense to me. In other words, while my instincts agree with my education here, and I'd expect all derivation to precede all inflection, the grade formation process you describe here, and at least the case of the OP reduplication of 'to say' look like they require one derivation to follow inflection. The Omaha-Ponca dative is actually a better example, because it's pervasive, and not an isolated case, but it could be argued that dative is an inflectional process, rather than a derivational one, though I think the instincts of most Siouanists would be that it is derivational, or at least "stem forming." The problem in Omaha-Ponca is just that it's difficult to explain the forms exhibited by applying inflection to the dative "stem." In some cases the merger of the locative or pronominal or sequence of them with gi- seems to skip syllables that precede its ostensible location. I haven't been able to come up with any arguments that OP dative is derivational as opposed to inflectional. It seems pretty productive, and, though there are a couple of cases where the English verbs expressing the base and the dative forms are different - e.g., gaNze/giaNze 'demonstrate/teach', I don't know that these are especially unpreditable and idiomatic. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 3 22:32:23 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 16:32:23 -0600 Subject: double inflection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > > The same -ya- shows up with the a- prefix that marks > > collective subject for motion verbs: 'they started for home here' is > > agliyaku. This could be double inflection with epenthetic /y/, of > > course, and may be the source of the analogy for the other forms, but > > I'm not sure I want to advocate that analysis. > > This looks like a fossil remnant of the a-prefix on the third person, > maybe wagliwaku/yagliyaku/agli(y)aku resulted in the first person changing > to match the second and third person. I slipped up on editing this. I meant to say that I was here agreeing with David that -ya- could be a reflex of the collective subject a-. A cognate appears in OP in plural verbs of motion and with proximate verbs. The fact that this independent form of pluralization - hey another case of two plurals - also occurs with proximates is one of the things that convinced me that proximate marking doesn't originate with an independent marker, but asa specialziation of the plural marker. JEK From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon Aug 4 01:57:28 2003 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 19:57:28 -0600 Subject: double inflection In-Reply-To: <3F2D3C4D.2060009@ucla.edu> Message-ID: Pam, I don't have any of my reference books here at home as I write this, but John's mention of the verb 'to say' triggers a vague memory in my mind to the effect that Lak. does the same thing with that one. 'Say' is eya, conjugated ephe, ehe for 'I say', 'you say' (the only verb left that uses those inlflections). I am pretty sure I've seen it reduplicated and conjugated on both halves: ephaphe, ehahe. If you want to use that "fact" in your paper, however, you must give me a chance to verify it. For what it's worth, too, you should note that the 'uN(k) 'we' prefix doesn't participate in any of this; it's only the older inflections that have these irregularities. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon Aug 4 02:14:25 2003 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 20:14:25 -0600 Subject: double inflection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't think I follow this for the Lak. case, at least for iblable. It seems to me the derivation (reduplication) has to precede the inflection. How else would you get the non-ablauted initial syllable of the reduplication? David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, Koontz John E wrote: > On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: > > Agreed, absolutely. I should have said that. The same would be true of > > the Siouan forms. That's what makes these so interesting to me. If the > > morphology does not have a long enough base to do its thing it can look > > ahead to inflection and borrow something. > > > > > >What interests me about this case is that it shows grade formation > > >operating in some sense, anyway) after (perosnal) inflection. That's like > > >the way that dative formation operates after (personal) inflection in > > >Omaha-Ponca. Theorists generally hold that inflection follows derivation. > > I'm not sure if I worded this clearly. Were you agreeing that it looked > like - in this case - the grade formation process would have to be said to > follow inflection in the process of creation of the form? That was the > only way I could get the case of the Omaha-Ponca dative to make sense to > me. In other words, while my instincts agree with my education here, and > I'd expect all derivation to precede all inflection, the grade formation > process you describe here, and at least the case of the OP reduplication of > 'to say' look like they require one derivation to follow inflection. > > The Omaha-Ponca dative is actually a better example, because it's > pervasive, and not an isolated case, but it could be argued that dative is > an inflectional process, rather than a derivational one, though I think > the instincts of most Siouanists would be that it is derivational, or at > least "stem forming." The problem in Omaha-Ponca is just that it's > difficult to explain the forms exhibited by applying inflection to the > dative "stem." In some cases the merger of the locative or pronominal or > sequence of them with gi- seems to skip syllables that precede its > ostensible location. > > I haven't been able to come up with any arguments that OP dative is > derivational as opposed to inflectional. It seems pretty productive, and, > though there are a couple of cases where the English verbs expressing the > base and the dative forms are different - e.g., gaNze/giaNze > 'demonstrate/teach', I don't know that these are especially unpreditable > and idiomatic. > > JEK > From munro at ucla.edu Mon Aug 4 02:33:14 2003 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 19:33:14 -0700 Subject: double inflection Message-ID: You interpreted what I said correctly, John. I believe that Muskogrean grade formation is derivational, though perhaps (since it is aspectual) not everyone would agree with me. In Chickasaw it is unpredictable both in terms of its occurrence and, often, its meaning. But of course these are tricky questions. Pam Koontz John E wrote: >On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: > > >>Agreed, absolutely. I should have said that. The same would be true of >>the Siouan forms. That's what makes these so interesting to me. If the >>morphology does not have a long enough base to do its thing it can look >>ahead to inflection and borrow something. >> >> >>>What interests me about this case is that it shows grade formation >>>operating in some sense, anyway) after (perosnal) inflection. That's like >>>the way that dative formation operates after (personal) inflection in >>>Omaha-Ponca. Theorists generally hold that inflection follows derivation. >>> >>> > >I'm not sure if I worded this clearly. Were you agreeing that it looked >like - in this case - the grade formation process would have to be said to >follow inflection in the process of creation of the form? That was the >only way I could get the case of the Omaha-Ponca dative to make sense to >me. In other words, while my instincts agree with my education here, and >I'd expect all derivation to precede all inflection, the grade formation >process you describe here, and at least the case of the OP reduplication of >'to say' look like they require one derivation to follow inflection. > >The Omaha-Ponca dative is actually a better example, because it's >pervasive, and not an isolated case, but it could be argued that dative is >an inflectional process, rather than a derivational one, though I think >the instincts of most Siouanists would be that it is derivational, or at >least "stem forming." The problem in Omaha-Ponca is just that it's >difficult to explain the forms exhibited by applying inflection to the >dative "stem." In some cases the merger of the locative or pronominal or >sequence of them with gi- seems to skip syllables that precede its >ostensible location. > >I haven't been able to come up with any arguments that OP dative is >derivational as opposed to inflectional. It seems pretty productive, and, >though there are a couple of cases where the English verbs expressing the >base and the dative forms are different - e.g., gaNze/giaNze >'demonstrate/teach', I don't know that these are especially unpreditable >and idiomatic. > >JEK > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From munro at ucla.edu Mon Aug 4 02:46:10 2003 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 19:46:10 -0700 Subject: double inflection Message-ID: I believe that John is suggesting that the order is Inflection (person marking: stem-initial y of ya replaced by bl etc.: ya > bla) Reduplication (bla > blabla) Then my guess would be that ablaut (final a > e) follows this, applying as usual to the final syllable of the ablauting stem (blabla > blable). Certainly if ablaut came before reduplication, we'd get bleble. Perhaps there are very short ablauting verbs that give such a result (I can't think of any). But I bet such verbs do not start with y! If ablaut is inflectional, this example shows is that ablaut must a later inflectional process than person marking. (This is thus another case which in which the two reduplicated elements are less than perfectly similar to each other.) I hope this makes sense. I am after all only a closet Siouanist wannabe.... Thanks again to all of you for your incredibly thought-provoking help. Pam ROOD DAVID S wrote: >I don't think I follow this for the Lak. case, at least for iblable. It >seems to me the derivation (reduplication) has to precede the inflection. >How else would you get the non-ablauted initial syllable of the >reduplication? > >David S. Rood >Dept. of Linguistics >Univ. of Colorado >295 UCB >Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >USA >rood at colorado.edu > >On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, Koontz John E wrote: > > > >>On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: >> >> >>>Agreed, absolutely. I should have said that. The same would be true of >>>the Siouan forms. That's what makes these so interesting to me. If the >>>morphology does not have a long enough base to do its thing it can look >>>ahead to inflection and borrow something. >>> >>> >>>>What interests me about this case is that it shows grade formation >>>>operating in some sense, anyway) after (perosnal) inflection. That's like >>>>the way that dative formation operates after (personal) inflection in >>>>Omaha-Ponca. Theorists generally hold that inflection follows derivation. >>>> >>>> >>I'm not sure if I worded this clearly. Were you agreeing that it looked >>like - in this case - the grade formation process would have to be said to >>follow inflection in the process of creation of the form? That was the >>only way I could get the case of the Omaha-Ponca dative to make sense to >>me. In other words, while my instincts agree with my education here, and >>I'd expect all derivation to precede all inflection, the grade formation >>process you describe here, and at least the case of the OP reduplication of >>'to say' look like they require one derivation to follow inflection. >> >>The Omaha-Ponca dative is actually a better example, because it's >>pervasive, and not an isolated case, but it could be argued that dative is >>an inflectional process, rather than a derivational one, though I think >>the instincts of most Siouanists would be that it is derivational, or at >>least "stem forming." The problem in Omaha-Ponca is just that it's >>difficult to explain the forms exhibited by applying inflection to the >>dative "stem." In some cases the merger of the locative or pronominal or >>sequence of them with gi- seems to skip syllables that precede its >>ostensible location. >> >>I haven't been able to come up with any arguments that OP dative is >>derivational as opposed to inflectional. It seems pretty productive, and, >>though there are a couple of cases where the English verbs expressing the >>base and the dative forms are different - e.g., gaNze/giaNze >>'demonstrate/teach', I don't know that these are especially unpreditable >>and idiomatic. >> >>JEK >> >> >> > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 4 04:47:35 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 22:47:35 -0600 Subject: double inflection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > I don't have any of my reference books here at home as I write > this, but John's mention of the verb 'to say' triggers a vague memory in > my mind to the effect that Lak. does the same thing with that one. 'Say' > is eya, conjugated ephe, ehe for 'I say', 'you say' (the only verb left > that uses those inflections). I am pretty sure I've seen it reduplicated > and conjugated on both halves: ephaphe, ehahe. If you want to use that > "fact" in your paper, however, you must give me a chance to verify it. This is interesting. I looked in Buechel, following up on David's suggestion and the entry is there (146a), sure enough. I didn't realize this formation was present outside of Omaha-Ponca. Buechel gives eya'ya 'to say often' (vs. e'yaya 'to take or have taken with one' = a + iyaya?; eye'ya 'to make say, to say something'), inflected epha'pha, uNkeyayapi. Riggs lists the same form (118b) and adds ehaha as the second person (Buechel omits these). I checked and couldn't find comparable forms in Osage, IO, or Winnebago. I didn't search exhaustively, however. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 4 05:13:15 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 23:13:15 -0600 Subject: double inflection In-Reply-To: <3F2DC8F2.8000202@ucla.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: > I believe that John is suggesting that the order is > > Inflection (person marking: stem-initial y of ya replaced by bl etc.: ya > > bla) > Reduplication (bla > blabla) > > Then my guess would be that ablaut (final a > e) follows this, applying > as usual to the final syllable of the ablauting stem (blabla > blable). Truthfully I hadn't gotten that far, but this seems reasonable. In Dhegiha you get the a-grade in reduplications, anyway - se : sasa; etc. > Certainly if ablaut came before reduplication, we'd get bleble. Perhaps > there are very short ablauting verbs that give such a result (I can't > think of any). But I bet such verbs do not start with y! I'm thinking I've seen "propagated ablaut" in Hidatsa or maybe Mandan, but it may have been in obstruent + resonant clusters where it would be Dorsey's Law-like epenthesis. I think both yA 'to go' and =yA 'to cause' ablaut. But we're dealing with the only reduplication of either (the first) that I know of. Well, I guess the root of e=yA 'to say' also ablauts and we have a reduplicaiton of it now. > If ablaut is inflectional, this example shows is that ablaut must a > later inflectional process than person marking. (This is thus another > case which in which the two reduplicated elements are less than > perfectly similar to each other.) In my analysis of phonological words as consisting of one or more smaller "morphological" words, given that ablaut is conditioned by one such morphological word (an enclitic) following another (a verb stem), it would be natural to have ablaut (within a phonological word) follow inflection (within a morphological word). This would also tend to follow under Bob Rankin's argument (originally made by Wes Jones) that ablaut orignates from (and can often still be explained as) C(V1)=V2... => C=V2... collapses across the boundary of two morphological words. I'm putting things here in my terms, but clearly my terms are no more than a sort of reductio ad absurdam of the standard Siouanist position vis-a-vis enclitics, and a sort of crypto-lexicalist approach to boot. > I hope this makes sense. I am after all only a closet Siouanist > wannabe.... Oh, I think you might be out of the closet and fully qualified. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 4 22:04:13 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:04:13 -0600 Subject: FW: double inflection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>From Carolyn Quintero: On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Carolyn Quintero wrote: > Hi John, > Don't forget OS es^e's^e 'you keep saying that' from e[h]e 'say', which you > mentioned earlier for Ponca. In Os it's on the second person that shows > this, apparently, although you indicated you had found 1s in OP. This A2s > example is the only reduplication I've found involving pronominal subject > marking. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 4 22:47:57 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:47:57 -0600 Subject: FW: double inflection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Carolyn Quintero wrote: > There are a couple of examples such as wawe'dhe 'he's seeing things' from > iidhe 'see'. I don't know the details with 'see', but verbs in idha- (cf. Dakotan iya-) and i- have wawe- for 'them'. This looks like wa-wa-i- or maybe wa-a-wa-i-. Most i-only verbs just have we- < wa-i-, but, for example, ighagha 'to laugh at' leads to waweghagha=i 'they are laughers at them'. JEK From jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu Tue Aug 5 00:54:55 2003 From: jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu (John Boyle) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:54:55 -0500 Subject: 23rd SACLC Program Message-ID: Hi All, Here is the tentative program for the Siouan and Caddoan languages conference for this year in East Lansing, MI. In addition, for the Syntax workshop, I thought we could meet in the hotel lobby at 9:30 Thursday the 7th and walk over to C-312 Wells (which is also the conference venue). If it is free we can just meet there. Do this sound okay? Below is the program, I have allotted 25 minuet time slots for each paper but since there are only seven papers I'm sure people can go over time if they need to. Since there were so few papers this year I have only scheduled one day worth of talks. Have I missed anyone who wanted to present a paper? If so let me know and we can certainly add it. Thanks, and I'll see you in East Lansing. best wishes and safe travels, John The 23rd Annual Siouan-Caddoan Conference Michigan State University, East Lansing C-312 Wells August 2003 Friday, August 8th 9:30 - 10:00 Registration and Sign In 10:00 - 10:25 Noun Modification in Lakota Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies, SOAS 10:30 - 10:55 Deixis in Crow Randolph Graczyk St. Charles Mission 11:00 - 11:25 Attrition and Innovation in Hidatsa Clause Structure John P. Boyle University of Chicago 11:30 - 11:55 Change and Continuity: Two Versions of an Omaha Text Catherine Rudin Wayne State 12:00 - 1:30 Lunch 1:30 - 1:55 A New Information Marker in Omaha-Ponca [Dhegiha Siouan] John E. Koontz University of Colorado, Boulder 2:00 - 2:25 The Eclectic Chair: Osage/Omaha Substitutions in a 'Kansa' Inscription Robert Rankin University of Kansas 2:30 - 2:55 Same-Turn Self-Repair Initiation in Wichita Conversation Armik Mirzayan University of Colorado at Boulder 3:00 - 3:25 Business Meeting -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kdshea at ku.edu Tue Aug 5 01:07:55 2003 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:07:55 -0500 Subject: Attn. Dhegiha specialists. Message-ID: Attn. Dhegiha specialists.I would have responded sooner, but for some reason I didn't receive any messages at my KU e-mail address until last Saturday when 75 messages on the Siouan list came through! It took me a while to read them all. I'll try to comment here on responses sent under the above heading and those under RE: any more chairs?, RE: a wish?, and so forth. My first reaction, since we've recently had the dedication of the Dole Institure for Politics here on campus and Kansas symbols are fresh in my mind, was that the inscription might be an attempt to render the Kansas state motto (since 1877) into Kansa from Latin: "ad astra per aspera," usually translated 'to the stars through difficulties.' Of course, the Kansa version wouldn't have to have the word for "star" in it, but might mean something like "to the farthest reaches through striving." Unfortunately, I'm in Lawrence, Kansas, at the moment, and my copy of La Flesche's Osage dictionary is in Ponca City, along with most of my other Dhegiha materials. The only resource I have at hand is Fletcher and La Flesche's _The Omaha Tribe_. This morning I did call my 90-year-old Ponca language consultant, Uncle Parrish, who had just gottten back to his home in Oklahoma from a trip. I spelled out the syllables of the inscription to him, which he painstakingly wrote down, and then I tried to pronounce it to him in various ways, without it resulting in his being able to recognize very much. He did remark that we Poncas would say "maNthiN" instead of "maNniN." (I told him that the words could be Kansa, Osage, or Omaha-Ponca, since we think that La Flesche himself or his writing system had probably been the source for the writing.) Naturally, it was very difficult for us to hear well and to communicate about this over the phone. I'll try to address some of the comments raised earlier. Yes, the "TH" indicates that at least some of the inscription must be Omaha-Ponca or Osage, which I understand has edh intervocalically and word-initially, as in the Osage /kkodha/ 'friend' that Carolyn Quintero pointed out. And, by the way, I have seen the word /kkodha/ (written "kola," as I recall) written in at least one Ponca song that was shown and played on tape to me several years ago by Henry Collins, a well-known Ponca singer and drum maker and a fluent (middle-aged) speaker of Ponca, who lives here in Lawrence. He was the person who initially provided me with the contacts for my consultants in Oklahoma, giving me the names of four of his uncles. He has been recording and writing down some of the Ponca songs for his children and, without my asking, just pulled them out to show me and play for me. I remember remarking at the time on the word "kola" 'friend' and his telling me that it was an alternate word for /khaage/ that sometimes ocurs in Ponca songs. Considering the fact that the Poncas are traditionally the singers for the Osages at their dances even today, and that the Osages received (some Poncas say stole!) their Ilonshka ceremonial dance from the Poncas (from the Ponca Hethushka), it's not surprising that /kkodha/ occurs in Ponca songs. Although I haven't visited with him recently, I think Uncle Henry (Collins) might be a knowlegeable person to ask about this inscription. Speaking of songs, I noticed that many of the songs written in _The Omaha Tribe_ are addressed to a group, in the second person plural. It makes me wonder if the inscription could be a quote from a well-known song, or even Curtis's family song, if he had one. In that case, the word "MO-NI" could have the second person reading 'you walk.' On the other hand, I have observed that [dh] sometimes alternates with [n] in the pronunciation of /dh/ in Ponca speech, although the only example I can think of right now might exemplify a difference between Ponca and Omaha pronunciation, as in the word for the trickster /is^tinikhe/ (Ponca) versus /is^tidhiNkhe/ (Omaha). And by the way, I have never heard /s^/ or /h/ before n in r-stem verbs pronounced as the realization of a second-person prefix or before /naN/ and /namaN/, the habitual marker, in modern Ponca, as also John Koontz says he hasn't in Omaha. The main issue that I would like to raise is why we haven't considered the possibility that "C" could be La Flesche's c-cedilla without the cedilla (to look more "American"?) and so could ambiguously represent /s/ or /z/, as La Flesche does consistently in _The Omaha Tribe_ and elsewhere (e.g., in ",ci" for both /si/ 'foot' and /zi/ 'yellow'), despite his saying in the "Phonetic Guide" in the opening pages that c-cedilla "has the sound of th in thin." I'm not prepared to say what meaning a reading of "C" as /s/ or /z/ would give the inscription, but, if we don't have to interpret "C" as the lax stop written "G," we are free to assume that the two "K's" represent lax stops, rather than inconsistently reading the first "K" as tense (as it would have to be if the word is /kkodha/ 'friend') and the second "K" as lax (more likely than if it were the tense stop of the first-person form /kkobdha/ 'I want, wish' if the verb in the inscription is in fact /koNdha/, inflected with the plural/proximate ending /i/. I'm somewhat hampered by not being able to refer to La Flesche's Osage dictionary, but as Carolyn has pointed out, he does use "g" in the dictionary for the (unvoiced) lax velar stop in Osage and "k" with a dot underneath for the tense velar stop. La Flesche inconsistently represents the tense stops of Osage in _The Omaha Tribe_, where he doesn't use subscript dots (with the exception of one place that John noticed?), for example, /kk/ as "k" in "WakoN'da" ('God') on page 65 and "gk" in "Gka'washiNka" 'Little horse' (a personal name) on page 64, unless I haven't noticed a consistent pattern for his written Osage. As far as the length of the first stem vowel in Osage /koNdha/ (Ponca "gaNaNtha" ' to wish, want, desire,' or in one instance, 'to try to become' as in, "Gini gaNaNtha(a)!" 'Try to get better!' (imperative, female speech), written in the practical orthography adopted by the Ponca Nation), I think that it probably is long (/oNoN/). At least it is in the Ponca counterpart, I would say. John raised this question about length. I've been transcribing some stories recently, and in all the person forms, most of which have the accent on the first--or stem--syllable, I seem to hear a long vowel. Even in the I-you form, where the accent shifts to the portmanteau person prefix /wi-/, I think I hear a long /aNaN/: /wi'kkaNaNbdha/. However, in the inclusive form that occurs in one of the stories, I definitely hear a long vowel: /aNgaNaN'dhai/ 'we want.' This could be explained by the presence of an infixed inclusive person marker /aN-/ in this doubly inflecting verb, which I think is present, but even in the third person, where the accent often shifts to the following stem vowel in verbs, it remains on the first, as shown in John's example using /gaNaN'dha/ of a type 1 g-stem active verb at his website under "Morphology," an indication that the first stem vowel is long, having "attracted" the accent: gaN'=dha=i 'he/she heard it' (sic). A few stray thoughts that I had were that the two "KO's" could be a deictic or a discourse marker, such as gaN, and that "-SHE" might be the /-s^e/ that occurs after second-person plural verbs in Ponca, Kansa, and I guess the other Dhegiha languages. I'm afraid, though that my ruminations don't bring us any closer to a meaning for the inscription. I just thought I'd offer my observations. Kathy ----- Original Message ----- From: Rankin, Robert L To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 3:49 PM Subject: Attn. Dhegiha specialists. I have received the appended request from one of the curators for the U.S. Senate to translate an inscription he believes to be in the Kaw language. It includes a photograph of the inscription, which is on a chair presented to Charles Curtis when he was Vice President of the United States from 1929-1933. Curtis was part Kaw. I hope the Colorado listserver permits photo attachments. If it doesn't come through and you'd like a copy, let me know. I thought I'd give all of you a crack at it. I'll be trying to translate it as well. It's pretty clearly written in a Dhegiha dialect. It may be Kaw, but written down by someone using the Osage dictionary as a source (since there was no Kaw dictionary, Osage would be the closest source of lexicon in published form). It looks as though it has "TH" where Kaw would have [y] (both now and in the 1800's). You'll want to look at the photo rather than the curator's rendering of it, as someone has scratched in a small, raised "n" above a vowel to indicate nasalization. It's easily visible near the top. In other instances, a syllable-final is written for nasalization. Whoever wrote it pretty clearly had access to La Flesche's Osage Dictionary, as they write "real" as /xtsi/. Any ideas appreciated. Naturally, I'll share credit where credit is due when I send in my rendering. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Doerner, Rich (Secretary) Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 10:15 AM To: Rankin at KU.EDU Subject: Translation Dear Mr. Robert Rankin: Ms. Virginia Wulfkuhle, Public Archeologist at Kansas, recommended that I write to you. I am the Museum Specialist in the Office of Senate Curator conducting research on a chair presented to Vice President Charles Curtis. I am interested in translating the following Native American Indian (Kaw ?) word(s) that appear on a circular medallion in the center of the backrest on the carved walnut chair. The letters may be out of order. I have enclosed a digital image of the medallion for your translation.. KO-THA-U-CA-SHE / THI-CE-XTSI MO-NI / KO-ON-THAIHA-IN In addition to the above, the chair is also inscribed "From the Original Curtis Boys and Matthew Quay Glaser". I am reading numerous books on Curtis, reviewing New York Times articles, and conducting research at the Library of Congress to learn more about them. THANK YOU in advance for any help you may be able to provide. Richard Doerner Museum Specialist Office of the Senate Curator Room S-411, U.S. Capitol Building Washington, D.C. 20510-7102 <> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Aug 5 03:05:11 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:05:11 -0600 Subject: 23rd SACLC Program In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, John! I see that we have a SACC this year instead of just a SC, which is nice! JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Aug 5 04:04:57 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:04:57 -0600 Subject: Attn. Dhegiha specialists. In-Reply-To: <001401c35aee$01dbbc80$1509ed81@9afl3> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Kathleen Shea wrote: > My first reaction, since we've recently had the dedication of the Dole > Institure for Politics here on campus and Kansas symbols are fresh in > my mind, was that the inscription might be an attempt to render the > Kansas state motto (since 1877) into Kansa from Latin: "ad astra per > aspera," usually translated 'to the stars through difficulties.' Of > course, the Kansa version wouldn't have to have the word for "star" in > it, but might mean something like "to the farthest reaches through > striving." .... The motto idea is excellent, though I don't think this text can represent the Kansas state motto. I wonder if the Kaw tribe has a motto? I think some plain old detective work without linguistics in mind might help here. I suspect that there must be a newspaper article somewhere on this chair, or some correspondence. I'd guess LaFlesche's BAE correspondence would be relevant if the time frame was correct. However, I think he was retired by this point. > ... The only resource I have at hand is Fletcher and La Flesche's > _The Omaha Tribe_. This morning I did call my 90-year-old Ponca > language consultant, Uncle Parrish, who had just gottten back to his > home in Oklahoma from a trip. I spelled out the syllables of the > inscription to him, which he painstakingly wrote down, and then I > tried to pronounce it to him in various ways, without it resulting in > his being able to recognize very much. He did remark that we Poncas > would say "maNthiN" instead of "maNniN." (I told him that the words > could be Kansa, Osage, or Omaha-Ponca, since we think that La Flesche > himself or his writing system had probably been the source for the > writing.) Naturally, it was very difficult for us to hear well and to > communicate about this over the phone. I think this tends to confirm the difficulties with MA-NI being a second person, and also the general Osage tenor of the vocabulary. > I'll try to address some of the comments raised earlier. Yes, the > "TH" indicates that at least some of the inscription must be > Omaha-Ponca or Osage, which I understand has edh intervocalically and > word-initially, as in the Osage /kkodha/ 'friend' that Carolyn > Quintero pointed out. And, by the way, I have seen the word /kkodha/ > (written "kola," as I recall) written in at least one Ponca song that > was shown and played on tape to me several years ago by Henry Collins, > ... I remember remarking at the time on the word "kola" 'friend' and > his telling me that it was an alternate word for /khaage/ that > sometimes ocurs in Ponca songs. ... This is interesting! I've noticed that the vocabulary and even morphology of songs is rather eclectic. Things occur there that are rare in narrated text, like the postposition =ha, and there are old or maybe foreign words, as Kathy suggests. There are even songs that have such different sets of sentence final markings that they seem to be adapted from other SIouan languages. I remember one song with eska as a sentence final marker. I think I remember Bob remarking once that this was the Kaw quotative. > ... It makes me wonder if the inscription could be a quote from a > well-known song, or even Curtis's family song, if he had one. ... Another excellent suggestion. It seems to me that many song genres and modern Hedhus^ka songs especially are very brief, and lacking in elaborate use of conjunctions. This could be a the entire lyric of a song, though I have no idea if it fits teh requirements of a lyric. > "MO-NI" could have the second person reading 'you walk.' On the other > hand, I have observed that [dh] sometimes alternates with [n] in the > pronunciation of /dh/ in Ponca speech, although the only example I can > think of right now might exemplify a difference between Ponca and > Omaha pronunciation, as in the word for the trickster /is^tinikhe/ > (Ponca) versus /is^tidhiNkhe/ (Omaha). This is one of my standard examples, certainly! > And by the way, I have never heard /s^/ or /h/ before n in r-stem > verbs pronounced as the realization of a second-person prefix or > before /naN/ and /namaN/, the habitual marker, in modern Ponca, as > also John Koontz says he hasn't in Omaha. No, exactly. That was one of the surprising things about the s^n vs. n example Rory offered. However, I think Rory has probably now heard more spoken Omaha from more various speakers than I ever did. > The main issue that I would like to raise is why we haven't considered > the possibility that "C" could be La Flesche's c-cedilla without the > cedilla (to look more "American"?) and so could ambiguously represent > /s/ or /z/, as La Flesche does consistently in _The Omaha Tribe_ and > elsewhere (e.g., in ",ci" for both /si/ 'foot' and /zi/ 'yellow'), > despite his saying in the "Phonetic Guide" in the opening pages that > c-cedilla "has the sound of th in thin." In regard to that c-cedilla = th, I think (a) I recall reading a note from Dorsey that the LaFlesche famil pronounced s as theta, though it has been a while since I thought about that, and (b) I know that Alice Fletcher definitely wrote th for s (thee for si 'foot', for example) in transcribing the names and various incidental vocabulary for the residents of "The Village of Make-Believe Whitemen." I suspect this is a dialect feature of that village/band. An additional factor here is that Dorsey (and the BAE?) used c-cedilla to represent theta. Anyone strongly influenced by the LaFlesche orthography is going to be saddled with the unfortunate c-cedilla convention, and so I definitely considered what the implications might be of the letter in the inscriptsions being C, whether it represented an apical fricative or a velar stop. It was at this point that I examined the image Bob supplied closely and concluded that all the potential C's were actually G's. Kathy's observations on the procs and cons of the C's being K's concur exactly with my thoughts on the matter. > ... La Flesche inconsistently represents the tense stops of Osage in > _The Omaha Tribe_, where he doesn't use subscript dots (with the > exception of one place that John noticed?), for example, /kk/ as "k" > in "WakoN'da" ('God') on page 65 and "gk" in "Gka'washiNka" 'Little > horse' (a personal name) on page 64, unless I haven't noticed a > consistent pattern for his written Osage. I think that Gk is used only in certain name lists, probably prepared at a particular point in time and inserted in place in the text. The comments on language in Chapter 15 includes p. 606 bpixoN as the first person of bixoN 'to break with the weight of the body', which suggests that this part was done at about the same time, though, for example, the same page has pahe- for ppahe 'hill' instead of bpahe. The list of river names pp. 89-94 was the one section of The Oaha Tribe that I found in my quick scan of the LaFlesche papers at the NAA. It did use dots under k for kk, etc., though these dots do not appear in the text in The Omaha Tribe. I assume this list was not actually considered to form part of the manuscript for The Omaha Tribe, if that still exists, but was a separate creation that got included in it and was subsequently filed separately. This definitely tells us that LaFlesche (and Fletcher) used several different orthographies at various times, and that the usage in The Omaha Tribe involves several different systems combined without any great attempt at consistancy. In addition, some of the systems were applied without much consistancy within themselves. The system in the Osage Dictionary is the "final" system, the most developed, and the most consistantly applied. > As far as the length of the first stem vowel in Osage /koNdha/ (Ponca > "gaNaNtha" ' to wish, want, desire,' or in one instance, 'to try to > become' as in, "Gini gaNaNtha(a)!" 'Try to get better!' (imperative, > female speech), written in the practical orthography adopted by the > Ponca Nation), I think that it probably is long (/oNoN/). At least it > is in the Ponca counterpart, I would say. John raised this question > about length. At this point I'm somewhat inclined to see KO^NONTHA as an attempt to write something like the Omaha kkaN aNdhaNdha 'I hope' form, but then the following I of IHA would have to mean that the object was plural i.e., 'I hope (for) these things', which doesn't seem to fit with the top part being the complement. Of course, I assume that the 'I hope' form aimed at is the Osage equivalent, whatever that would be, not the specific Omaha-Ponca form. Over the years I have grown cautious, and I no longer assume Osage will turn out to be Omaha-Ponca pronounced with an Osage accent. On some points it is grammatically and lexically quite different, as this inscription has so far tended to confirm and illustrate. Thus, essentially only MA-NI is recognizable in Omaha-Ponca terms and the N seems to render the form incorrect to the ears of Omaha-Ponca speakers anyway. The rest of the lexicon seems to be Osage forms that do not exist in the same meanings in ordinary Omaha or Ponca speech. > I've been transcribing some stories recently, and in all the person > forms, most of which have the accent on the first--or stem--syllable, > I seem to hear a long vowel. Even in the I-you form, where the accent > shifts to the portmanteau person prefix /wi-/, I think I hear a long > /aNaN/: /wi'kkaNaNbdha/. However, in the inclusive form that occurs > in one of the stories, I definitely hear a long vowel: > /aNgaNaN'dhai/ 'we want.' This could be explained by the presence of > an infixed inclusive person marker /aN-/ in this doubly inflecting > verb, which I think is present, but even in the third person, where > the accent often shifts to the following stem vowel in verbs, it > remains on the first, as shown in John's example using /gaNaN'dha/ of > a type 1 g-stem active verb at his website under "Morphology," an > indication that the first stem vowel is long, having "attracted" the > accent: gaN'=dha=i 'he/she heard it' (sic). While very interested in the length observations, I find that accent is generally confined to the first simple form in a compound stem, so I wouldn't expect it to advanced onto dha in gaN'=dha=i, even without length. This is Omaha-Ponca's version of the "no accent on enclitics" rule in Dakotan. There are a few peculiar exceptions. If it weren't for examples like wi'kkaNaN=bdha, it would be easier to see length as secondary and conditioned by accent. From wablenica at mail.ru Thu Aug 7 22:40:37 2003 From: wablenica at mail.ru (Wablenica) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 02:40:37 +0400 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wonder what can be the origin of ASB puza/buza "cat" http://fpcctalkindian.nativeweb.org/n_audio/n_alphabet/buza.wma Is 'pusida' in some D-dialects a cognate of buza or a borrowing of English "pussy" + dim. -da(n) ? Thank you. Constantine From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Aug 8 13:09:37 2003 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:09:37 -0500 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: <1012259266.20030808024037@mail.ru> Message-ID: I imagine Dave Costa might be jumping in here as soon as the West Coast wakes up. I always defer to him in these matter. However, "puza/buza" looks like it could be a borrowing of a reflex in some Algonquian language of Proto-Algonquian */peSiwa/ 'lynx, wildcat' (S = sh) Michael McCafferty On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Wablenica wrote: > I wonder what can be the origin of ASB puza/buza "cat" > > http://fpcctalkindian.nativeweb.org/n_audio/n_alphabet/buza.wma > > Is 'pusida' in some D-dialects a cognate of buza or a borrowing of English "pussy" + dim. > -da(n) ? > > Thank you. > Constantine > > > "I'm trying to think but nothing happens" -Curly From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Fri Aug 8 14:49:36 2003 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:49:36 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am pretty sure that this word for 'cat', which recurs in many North American languages with minor variations, is English 'puss' or 'pussy'. Why the /s/ is voiced in ASB I don't know -- Linda? Certainly "pusila/pusida" is from that source. So ASB is "cognate" in a strange sort of way, in that both words derive from the same lending language. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > I imagine Dave Costa might be jumping in here as soon as the West Coast > wakes up. I always defer to him in these matter. However, "puza/buza" > looks like it could be a borrowing of a reflex in some Algonquian language > of Proto-Algonquian */peSiwa/ 'lynx, wildcat' (S = sh) > > Michael McCafferty > > > > On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Wablenica wrote: > > > I wonder what can be the origin of ASB puza/buza "cat" > > > > http://fpcctalkindian.nativeweb.org/n_audio/n_alphabet/buza.wma > > > > Is 'pusida' in some D-dialects a cognate of buza or a borrowing of English "pussy" + dim. > > -da(n) ? > > > > Thank you. > > Constantine > > > > > > > > > "I'm trying to think but nothing happens" > > -Curly > > > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Fri Aug 8 15:55:38 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:55:38 -0700 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: As this list's resident lurking Algonquianist I don't have too much to add, except that indeed, the Proto-Algonquian word for 'bobcat' was */pe$iwa/ ($ = s-hacek). It has an impeccable Algonquian pedigree (no pun intended), but it's even closer to English 'pussy' in certain daughter languages, such as Penobscot /p at so/ (@ = schwa). In the language that would have given it to Dakota, namely Ojibwe, it's /bizhiw/. best, Dave Costa ---------- >From: ROOD DAVID S >To: Koontz John E >Cc: Wablenica >Subject: Re: ASB puza >Date: Fri, Aug 8, 2003, 7:49 am > > > I am pretty sure that this word for 'cat', which recurs in many North > American languages with minor variations, is English 'puss' or 'pussy'. > Why the /s/ is voiced in ASB I don't know -- Linda? Certainly > "pusila/pusida" is from that source. So ASB is "cognate" in a strange > sort of way, in that both words derive from the same lending language. > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > >> I imagine Dave Costa might be jumping in here as soon as the West Coast >> wakes up. I always defer to him in these matter. However, "puza/buza" >> looks like it could be a borrowing of a reflex in some Algonquian language >> of Proto-Algonquian */peSiwa/ 'lynx, wildcat' (S = sh) >> >> Michael McCafferty >> >> >> >> On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Wablenica wrote: >> >> > I wonder what can be the origin of ASB puza/buza "cat" >> > >> > http://fpcctalkindian.nativeweb.org/n_audio/n_alphabet/buza.wma >> > >> > Is 'pusida' in some D-dialects a cognate of buza or a borrowing of > English "pussy" + dim. >> > -da(n) ? >> > >> > Thank you. >> > Constantine >> > >> > >> > From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Fri Aug 8 16:16:00 2003 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (Heike =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=F6deker?=) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 18:16:00 +0200 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Fri Aug 8 17:04:16 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:04:16 -0700 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: Well, I can't speak for Siouan, but in Algonquian it's not uncommon for the old 'bobcat' word *pe$iwa to end up meaning plain old 'cat'. This is at least the case for Miami pin$iwa and Kickapoo pesia (tho not Shawnee or Ojibwe). Given the morphological transparency of *meh$ipe$iwa ('big bobcat'), it might not be of Proto-Algonquian or even Proto-Central Algonquian vintage. Moreover, I'm not convinced panthers existed in the original Proto-Algonquian homeland. In Central Algonquian words for 'panther', one often sees forms that reference the animal's long tail or long body, such as Shawnee keenwaaloweeta ('one who has a long tail'), Miami kinoosaawia, and Fox kenwaasoweewa. best, Dave Costa I think it pretty unlikely for lynxes (lynx canadiensis and lynx rufus, both designated by PCA *pešiwa, BF natááyo, occasionally also occuring with initial change: nitááyo) to end up in the same biotaxon as domestic cats, for which A mostly uses the same loan already mentioned by David Rood (BF poos, PC poosiis-, poosiy-, poosiiw-, also from French minoos-). However, there is a second — quite uncharming — etymon PC kaasakees "glutton; cat" < PCA *kaašakeensa (anachronistically glossed just "cat" instead of "wolverine" in Hewson, A computer-generated dictionary of Proto-Algonquian, p. 53 #0857). What may be interesting to note is that is that many NAN languages derive the word for "puma" from "lynx/bobcat" (BF omahkatááyo, PCA *me'šipešiwa "puma; Great Lynx, Underwater Manito" as in Nakoda ig^mu-thaNka, Dhegiha iGdháN-seN-snéde "long-tail-bobcat"). A differentiation between Canadian lynx vs. bobcats is rare (bobcat as "spotted lynx": Miami-Illinois wiikwee-pinaiwa, Minnesota-Ojibwe gidagaa-bizhiw, BF kííhstsipimi-natááyo) — as are overlapping habitats... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Fri Aug 8 17:38:41 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:38:41 -0700 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: A very minor point, but the wiikwee- in Miami-Illinois wiikwee-pin$iwa 'lynx' doesn't mean 'spotted'; I don't know what it does mean, but 'spotted' in Miami-Illinois is keetaki-. David A differentiation between Canadian lynx vs. bobcats is rare (bobcat as "spotted lynx": Miami-Illinois wiikwee-pinaiwa, Minnesota-Ojibwe gidagaa-bizhiw, BF kííhstsipimi-natááyo) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shanwest at uvic.ca Fri Aug 8 19:28:39 2003 From: shanwest at uvic.ca (Shannon West) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:28:39 -0700 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: <1012259266.20030808024037@mail.ru> Message-ID: >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu >[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of Wablenica >Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 3:41 PM >To: Koontz John E >Subject: ASB puza > > >I wonder what can be the origin of ASB puza/buza "cat" I've always assumed it was a borrowing of 'pussy'. I've heard the diminuitive form 'buzi' as well, and that sorta cemented it for me. Also, iirc, there's a reduplicated form 'busbuza', which would explain the voiced consonant. Shannon From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Aug 9 13:19:44 2003 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 08:19:44 -0500 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting David Costa : > As this list's resident lurking Algonquianist I don't have too much to add, > except that indeed, the Proto-Algonquian word for 'bobcat' was */pe$iwa/ ($ > = s-hacek). It has an impeccable Algonquian pedigree (no pun intended), but > it's even closer to English 'pussy' in certain daughter languages, such as > Penobscot /p at so/ (@ = schwa). In the language that would have given it to > Dakota, namely Ojibwe, it's /bizhiw/. > > best, > > Dave Costa > As this list's non-resident (homeless) yet lurking Algonquianist, I'd have to question whether in fact Ojibwa donated the term to Dakota. Certainly a possibility but not necessarily a foregone conclusion. Michael McCafferty > > ---------- > >From: ROOD DAVID S > >To: Koontz John E > >Cc: Wablenica > >Subject: Re: ASB puza > >Date: Fri, Aug 8, 2003, 7:49 am > > > > > > > I am pretty sure that this word for 'cat', which recurs in many North > > American languages with minor variations, is English 'puss' or 'pussy'. > > Why the /s/ is voiced in ASB I don't know -- Linda? Certainly > > "pusila/pusida" is from that source. So ASB is "cognate" in a strange > > sort of way, in that both words derive from the same lending language. > > > > David S. Rood > > Dept. of Linguistics > > Univ. of Colorado > > 295 UCB > > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > > USA > > rood at colorado.edu > > > > On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > > >> I imagine Dave Costa might be jumping in here as soon as the West Coast > >> wakes up. I always defer to him in these matter. However, "puza/buza" > >> looks like it could be a borrowing of a reflex in some Algonquian > language > >> of Proto-Algonquian */peSiwa/ 'lynx, wildcat' (S = sh) > >> > >> Michael McCafferty > >> > >> > >> > >> On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Wablenica wrote: > >> > >> > I wonder what can be the origin of ASB puza/buza "cat" > >> > > >> > http://fpcctalkindian.nativeweb.org/n_audio/n_alphabet/buza.wma > >> > > >> > Is 'pusida' in some D-dialects a cognate of buza or a borrowing of > > English "pussy" + dim. > >> > -da(n) ? > >> > > >> > Thank you. > >> > Constantine > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Aug 9 13:23:09 2003 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 08:23:09 -0500 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting David Costa : > Well, I can't speak for Siouan, but in Algonquian it's not uncommon for the > old 'bobcat' word *pe$iwa to end up meaning plain old 'cat'. This is at > least the case for Miami pin$iwa and Kickapoo pesia (tho not Shawnee or > Ojibwe). > > Given the morphological transparency of *meh$ipe$iwa ('big bobcat'), it > might not be of Proto-Algonquian or even Proto-Central Algonquian vintage. > Moreover, I'm not convinced panthers existed in the original > Proto-Algonquian homeland. The Proto-Algonquian homeland is about as fixed as flowing water. In more naive times Siebert placed it in southern Ontario around Georgian Bay; Goddard has recently correctly repositioned "west of Lake Superior," but meaning what?--somewhere between Duluth and Hokkaido? In any event, the Proto- Algonquians would no doubt have had contact with the mountain lion since it's original habitat included all of what is now southern Canada. In Central Algonquian words for 'panther', one > often sees forms that reference the animal's long tail or long body, such as > Shawnee keenwaaloweeta ('one who has a long tail'), Miami kinoosaawia, and > Fox kenwaasoweewa. > > best, > > Dave Costa > This is true. What's curious about all this is that while Proto-Algonquain /*meh$ipe$iwa/ 'big bobcat' is the term for the chthonic deity known in English as the Underwater Panther, it is rather the longness of things, the long-tail of the mountain lion, and the long nature of other animals such as weasels and snakes, that are constellated in the domain of the Underwater Panther. How the short-tailed, squat-bodied bobcat got mixed up in this circle is truly a curiosity. Michael McCafferty > > I think it pretty unlikely for lynxes (lynx canadiensis and lynx rufus, both > designated by PCA *pesiwa, BF natááyo, occasionally also occuring with > initial change: nitááyo) to end up in the same biotaxon as domestic cats, > for which A mostly uses the same loan already mentioned by David Rood (BF > poos, PC poosiis-, poosiy-, poosiiw-, also from French minoos-). However, > there is a second — quite uncharming — etymon PC kaasakees "glutton; cat" < > PCA *kaasakeensa (anachronistically glossed just "cat" instead of > "wolverine" in Hewson, A computer-generated dictionary of Proto-Algonquian, > p. 53 #0857). > > What may be interesting to note is that is that many NAN languages derive > the word for "puma" from "lynx/bobcat" (BF omahkatááyo, PCA *me'sipesiwa > "puma; Great Lynx, Underwater Manito" as in Nakoda ig^mu-thaNka, Dhegiha > iGdháN-seN-snéde "long-tail-bobcat"). A differentiation between Canadian > lynx vs. bobcats is rare (bobcat as "spotted lynx": Miami-Illinois > wiikwee-pinaiwa, Minnesota-Ojibwe gidagaa-bizhiw, BF kííhstsipimi-natááyo) — > as are overlapping habitats... > > > > From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Sat Aug 9 14:36:16 2003 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (Heike =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=F6deker?=) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 16:36:16 +0200 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: <1060435389.3f34f5bd61b98@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Sat Aug 9 14:59:46 2003 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (Heike =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=F6deker?=) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 16:59:46 +0200 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: <1060435184.3f34f4f0b72a8@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: At 08:19 09.08.03 -0500, mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: >As this list's non-resident (homeless) yet lurking Algonquianist, I'd have >to question whether in fact Ojibwa donated the term to Dakota. Certainly a >possibility but not necessarily a foregone conclusion. The problem I'm having with it is that then z^ would have been shifted to z without recognizable reason as the target language has both z^ snd z. The next best A lg. with a s/š merger would be Plains Cree, if it was about that... Anyone any ideas? All the best, Heike From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sat Aug 9 15:34:10 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 08:34:10 -0700 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: I was speaking imprecisely. I didn't mean to say that Ojibwe DID give the word to Dakotan; I meant that in my experience, when there appears to be borrowing back and forth between Dakotan and Algonquian (there isn't much), Ojibwe is the Algonquian language. As for this particular case, I'm perfectly prepared to believe Dakotan borrowed it from English. Dave > As this list's non-resident (homeless) yet lurking Algonquianist, I'd have > to question whether in fact Ojibwa donated the term to Dakota. Certainly a > possibility but not necessarily a foregone conclusion. > > Michael McCafferty > > >> As this list's resident lurking Algonquianist I don't have too much to add, >> except that indeed, the Proto-Algonquian word for 'bobcat' was */pe$iwa/ ($ >> = s-hacek). It has an impeccable Algonquian pedigree (no pun intended), but >> it's even closer to English 'pussy' in certain daughter languages, such as >> Penobscot /p at so/ (@ = schwa). In the language that would have given it to >> Dakota, namely Ojibwe, it's /bizhiw/. >> >> best, >> >> Dave Costa >> > > > >> >> ---------- >> >From: ROOD DAVID S >> >To: Koontz John E >> >Cc: Wablenica >> >Subject: Re: ASB puza >> >Date: Fri, Aug 8, 2003, 7:49 am >> > >> >> > >> > I am pretty sure that this word for 'cat', which recurs in many North >> > American languages with minor variations, is English 'puss' or 'pussy'. >> > Why the /s/ is voiced in ASB I don't know -- Linda? Certainly >> > "pusila/pusida" is from that source. So ASB is "cognate" in a strange >> > sort of way, in that both words derive from the same lending language. >> > >> > David S. Rood >> > Dept. of Linguistics >> > Univ. of Colorado >> > 295 UCB >> > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> > USA >> > rood at colorado.edu >> > >> > On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Michael Mccafferty wrote: >> > >> >> I imagine Dave Costa might be jumping in here as soon as the West Coast >> >> wakes up. I always defer to him in these matter. However, "puza/buza" >> >> looks like it could be a borrowing of a reflex in some Algonquian >> language >> >> of Proto-Algonquian */peSiwa/ 'lynx, wildcat' (S = sh) >> >> >> >> Michael McCafferty >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Wablenica wrote: >> >> >> >> > I wonder what can be the origin of ASB puza/buza "cat" >> >> > >> >> > http://fpcctalkindian.nativeweb.org/n_audio/n_alphabet/buza.wma >> >> > >> >> > Is 'pusida' in some D-dialects a cognate of buza or a borrowing of >> > English "pussy" + dim. >> >> > -da(n) ? >> >> > >> >> > Thank you. >> >> > Constantine >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > > From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Sat Aug 9 16:12:56 2003 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:12:56 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030809164356.00a72b50@pop3.netcologne.de> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Aug 2003, Heike [iso-8859-1] B�deker wrote: > At 08:19 09.08.03 -0500, mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > >As this list's non-resident (homeless) yet lurking Algonquianist, I'd have > >to question whether in fact Ojibwa donated the term to Dakota. Certainly a > >possibility but not necessarily a foregone conclusion. > > The problem I'm having with it is that then z^ would have been shifted to z > without recognizable reason as the target language has both z^ snd z. The > next best A lg. with a s/� merger would be Plains Cree, if it was about > that... Anyone any ideas? Don't forget about the highly productive sound-symbolism patterns with Siouan fricatives. Alveolars designate relatively small examples, alveo-palatals normal-sized, and velars are the augmentative grade, for both the voiced and voiceless series. Lakhota speakers today still play games with this, and we have major trouble reconstructing fricatives in medial position, especially in stative verbs and nouns, because the languages often disagree on which grade they've decided to make standard. Converting from z^ to z for a diminutive would be perfectly normal. However, I'm still advocating English as the lending language here, since the domestic cat is a European import, the word is widespread as a loan word, and the sound matches are a lot closer than those with the Algonquian candidate. David S. Rood Linguistics 295 UCB University of Colorado Boulder, CO 80309-0295 303-492-2747 From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sat Aug 9 16:54:12 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 09:54:12 -0700 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: >> Well, I can't speak for Siouan, but in Algonquian it's not uncommon for the >> old 'bobcat' word *pe$iwa to end up meaning plain old 'cat'. This is at least >> the case for Miami pin$iwa and Kickapoo pesia (tho not Shawnee or Ojibwe). > Well, probably people these days aren't very much better off than the > civilization junkies in our zoos who can't even tell a cheetah from a leopard, > not to speak of a leopard from a jaguar... It also might be English calque. Not necessarily. It's simply that once White settlers started pouring into the Great Lakes, the tribes would have started seeing bobcats much less often and European house cats much more often. Given that the two animals do look strikingly similar (much more than the panther would), and that they'd need a word for the house cat, the shift of 'bobcat' -> 'cat' is totally logical. So by the late 19th century, Miami speakers called cats /pin$iwa/ and indicated actual bobcats by adding the prenoun /nalaaohki/ 'wild' to the front of /pin$iwa/: /nalaaohki-pin$iwa/. The same semantic shift happened with the original Miami 'buffalo' word: when cows started appearing all over and buffalo started disappearing, the old 'buffalo' word shifted to mean 'cow', and buffalo, when they still had to be referred to, were then called by a term literally meaning 'wild cows'. One certainly doesn't have to imply that the Miamis couldn't tell bobcats from house cats, or buffalos from cows. >> Given the morphological transparency of *meh$ipe$iwa ('big bobcat'), it might >> not be of Proto-Algonquian or even Proto-Central Algonquian vintage. > Why should transparency preclude a certain age? I mean, it certainly is the > other way round, that an eroded form as a rule won't be particularly fresh, > except when dealing with allegro forms or disfigurement for taboo reasons. I wouldn't call */pe$iwa/ an 'eroded form', simply the noun that lacks the 'big' prenoun. Also, */pe$iwa/ is morphologically unsegmentable, and is much more widely reconstructible in the family: it's found in all the Central languages and in several Eastern languages. (But not the Plains languages, evidently!) Far as I can tell, */meh$ipe$iwa/ is found in most the Great Lakes languages and nowhere else, and in half of these languages it actually indicates the mythical underwater panther and not plain old pumas. So it doesn't strike me as the most satisfying candidate for a Proto-Algonquian term, tho perhaps it was. > The Proto-Algonquian homeland is about as fixed as flowing water. In more > naive times Siebert placed it in southern Ontario around Georgian Bay; Goddard > has recently correctly repositioned "west of Lake Superior," but meaning > what?--somewhere between Duluth and Hokkaido? It's entirely true that the Proto-Algonquian homeland is still nebulous. However, it's quite possible to state that certain animals WERE present in the PA homeland, and certain others were not. For example, moose, skunks, and elk were unquestionably present in the PA homeland, wherever it was, while, say, possums, alligators and coyotes were very likely not, even tho many modern Algonquian languages have coined names for them. Of course many other animals are much less clear candidates one way or the other. > In any event, the Proto-Algonquians would no doubt have had contact with the > mountain lion since it's original habitat included all of what is now southern > Canada. Can we actually verify this? I know that animal ranges now are generally drastically different from what they were 500 years ago, but my sources SEEM to indicate that mountain lions weren't present in Canada east of the Rockies -- tho that could well be just due to habitat loss. Either way, I would like to verify where mountain lions lived pre-contact, if possible. It's worth noting that in Siebert's article on the Proto-Algonquian homeland, he did NOT reconstruct a term for cougars/mountain lions/pumas/panthers, despite his kitchen-sink tendency in that article to throw in everything he possibly could. best, David From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Sat Aug 9 18:44:24 2003 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (Heike =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=F6deker?=) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 20:44:24 +0200 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 09:54 09.08.03 -0700, David Costa wrote: > >> Given the morphological transparency of *meh$ipe$iwa ('big bobcat'), > it might > >> not be of Proto-Algonquian or even Proto-Central Algonquian vintage. > > > Why should transparency preclude a certain age? I mean, it certainly is the > > other way round, that an eroded form as a rule won't be particularly fresh, > > except when dealing with allegro forms or disfigurement for taboo reasons. > >I wouldn't call */pe$iwa/ an 'eroded form', simply the noun that lacks the >'big' prenoun. Oops, misunderstanding... I was mentioned erosion merely in contrast to transparency, and of course it doesn't apply in the cases mentioned in this thread. I also can't really think of Algonquian analogies to processes like say the prefix preemption ubiquitious in Tibeto-Burman, hence my skepticism regarding correlations of transparency and age. >... Far as I can tell, */meh$ipe$iwa/ is found in most the Great Lakes >languages and nowhere else, and in half of these languages it actually >indicates the mythical underwater panther and not plain old pumas. Of course that's what's left after the puma has vanished from more than the Eastern half of N America (sauf the Florida Panther), excluding most of the Subarctic (from which to in this case, however, exclude almost all of Interior BC). >It's entirely true that the Proto-Algonquian homeland is still nebulous. >However, it's quite possible to state that certain animals WERE present in >the PA homeland, and certain others were not. For example, moose, skunks, >and elk were unquestionably present in the PA homeland, wherever it was, >while, say, possums, alligators and coyotes were very likely not, even tho >many modern Algonquian languages have coined names for them. Of course many >other animals are much less clear candidates one way or the other. Of course, there always is a possibility of semantic shifts, and we know from Comparative Indo-European how unpleasurable urheimat debates grounded on designations of plants and animals are. > > In any event, the Proto-Algonquians would no doubt have had contact > with the > > mountain lion since it's original habitat included all of what is now > southern > > Canada. > >Can we actually verify this? I know that animal ranges now are generally >drastically different from what they were 500 years ago, but my sources SEEM >to indicate that mountain lions weren't present in Canada east of the >Rockies -- tho that could well be just due to habitat loss. Either way, I >would like to verify where mountain lions lived pre-contact, if possible. I did check biological resources more than a decade ago. Probably these days there also will good maps to be found on the web. All the best, Heike From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 10 01:58:12 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:58:12 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030808171250.009f74e0@pop3.netcologne.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Heike Bödeker wrote: > What may be interesting to note is that is that many NAN languages derive > the word for "puma" from "lynx/bobcat" (BF omahkatááyo, PCA *me'šipešiwa > "puma; Great Lynx, Underwater Manito" as in Nakoda ig^mu-thaNka, Dhegiha > iGdháN-seN-snéde "long-tail-bobcat"). A differentiation between Canadian > lynx vs. bobcats is rare (bobcat as "spotted lynx": Miami-Illinois > wiikwee-pinaiwa, Minnesota-Ojibwe gidagaa-bizhiw, BF kííhstsipimi-natááyo) > — as are overlapping habitats... Correcting some typos, it's iNgdhaN'=siN=snede, i.e., iNgdhaN < iNgdhaNga 'cat', siN < siNde 'tail' plus, of course, snede 'long'. The truncation here is probably Omaha-Ponca's relict of Dakotan final vowel truncation. I hypothesize something like Pre-OP *iNkraNk-siNt-srete here, though, in fact, the compound may have been formulated fresh sometime since Proto-Dhegiha from formerly productive iNgdhaN- (combining form of iNgdhaNga) < *iNkraNk(e) + siN- (combining form of siNde) < *siNt(e) + snede < *sret(e). Either way, truncated combining forms aren't usual in modern OP compounds, thought here are a fair number of fossilized examples. Based on Fletcher & LaFlesche, I'd have to agree that iNgdhaN'ga alone is 'bobcat', since they gloss it 'wild cat'. Today this is 'cat'. Lynx is given as iNgdhaN'ga hiN s^kube 'deep-furred iNgdhaNga'. It is fairly clear that most Siouan languages don't draw any deep distinction between different kinds of felidae, but terms can be compound derivatives without being either (a) new or (b) non-lexicalized, even though underived terms are a bit easier to found hypotheses upon. The 'mountain lion' term is at least in archaic form. Dhegiha *iNkraN-ka, Dakotan ikmuN, Winnebago (w)ic^aNwaN, and Ioway-Otoe udwaN seem to reflect a single somewhat irregular set for something like *ikwuN or *itraN. The only other set with this correspondence is one of the curcurbit terms, apparently *wa-kwuN or *wa-traN. All these forms are very non-canonical for Siouan and presumably Proto-Siouan, and I believe this term has lots of resemblants across North America, so it's probably a loan set, possibly of Proto-Mississippi Valley age. I swear that I encountered at one point in the literature on the archaeology of the American Bottom (i.e., the bottom lands around St. Louis - not at all what you're trying to parse) a passing reference to a statuette of an image of a cat entwined with squash vines. It may have been an halucination, as I haven't been able to rediscover it in some casual searching. Actually, the association makes a certain amount of sense to me, as both cats and cucurbits have somewhat similar inclinations to a stripy-spotty exterior. What puzzles me is that such an image should have survived in a form that an archaologist would recognize immediately as what it was. It seems too much like the answer to a historical linguist's dream to be plausible. Hence my suspicion that it was an halucination. There was no picture. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 10 03:19:20 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 21:19:20 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: <1012259266.20030808024037@mail.ru> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Wablenica wrote: > I wonder what can be the origin of ASB puza/buza "cat" It occurs to me that puza is more or less in canonical form for Dakotan, but pusi is not. It is perhaps a bit daring to proposed canonicalization as a form of analogical shift. JEK From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Aug 10 14:52:27 2003 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 09:52:27 -0500 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: Drechsel, in his _Mobilian Jargon_ (1997, p. 92) quotes Louisiana records by Gatschet (1885: Lake Charles fieldwork 1885) and Read (1940: Opelousas ms. 1862) of a Jargon word pishu 'wild cat'. Alan From arem8 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 10 19:02:16 2003 From: arem8 at hotmail.com (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:02:16 -0400 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: Michael McCafferty wrote: > > > > > > In any event, the Proto-Algonquians would no doubt have had contact > > > with the > > > > mountain lion since it's original habitat included all of what is >now > > > southern > > > > Canada. At 09:54 09.08.03 -0700, David Costa wrote: > > > > > >Can we actually verify this? I know that animal ranges now are >generally > > >drastically different from what they were 500 years ago, but my sources > > SEEM > > >to indicate that mountain lions weren't present in Canada east of the > > >Rockies -- tho that could well be just due to habitat loss. Either way, >I > > >would like to verify where mountain lions lived pre-contact, if >possible. > Yes. I'll give you what I got. I've been working on a study of the Underwater Cat and its special relation to the Wabash River, which I hoped to have ready for presentation at the Algonquianists' conference in October, but things have delayed it, so it won't be ready in time for that. In any event, in his chapter titled "The panther in Huron-Wyandot and Seneca culture," in _Icons of Power--Feline Symbolism in the Americas_, (1998, ed.. Nicolas J. Saunders George R. Hammell notes, "Until historically recent times the panther had one of the most extensive ranges of latitude of any terrestial mammal in the New World--from the Canadian Yukon to the Straits of Magellan. Paleozoological evidence documents the panther's presence in North America since the Late Pleiocene, some 100,00 years ago (Kurten and Anderson 1980: 194-5; Lundelius et al. 1983:337)" (Hammell, p. 259) (Kurten, B. and E. Anderson (1980) Pleistocene Mammals of North America. New York: Columbia University Press; Lundelius Jr., E.L. et al. (1983) Terrestial vertebrate faunas. In H.E. Wright Jr. (ed.) Late Quaternary Environments of the United States, 1, The Late Pleistocene, Minneapolis: University of Minneapolis Press: 311-353). Hammell goes on to state, "The Lower Great Lakes region was the home of the so- called eastern mountain lion or panther (Felis concolor cougar Kerr), whose former maximum northerly range was the approximate latitude of the northern shore of Georgian Bay on Lake Huron." (p. 259) Hammell notes that the mountain lion was well attested historically in Ontario (p. 261), and of course in the Adirondacks. He doesn't site paleontological or archaeozoological evidence in eastern North America, but Pat Munson, one of the archaeologists here at I.U. recently told me, "(mountain lions) are certainly a tiny/sporadic occurrence in local faunal assemblages going back thousands of years into prehistory in this area." After receiving your question yesterday I wrote to another local archaeologist and faunal expert, Rex Garniwicz, to see what he can offer, especially in terms of the mountain lion's original range. But, as we can see from the above, Proto-Algonquian speakers would have known the animal, in the east and apparently the west as well. Our Siouanist friends may be interested in knowing that in Miami-Illinois we have (at least) six terms for the Underwater Cat: /mih$pin$iwa/ 'great cat', /araamipin$ia/ 'underwater cat', /ariimipin$ia/ 'within-cat', /akimarenia/ 'chiefman', /lenipin$ia/ 'original or ordinary cat' (this is a late historical form) and the one you mentioned the other day whose meaning we don't know, /wiikweepin$ia/ '?-cat' ($ = sh, i.e., s-hacek). Michael McCafferty _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From arem8 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 10 19:06:23 2003 From: arem8 at hotmail.com (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:06:23 -0400 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: Yes, Alan, this would be a borrowing, actually, from French "pichou," which was a borrowing itself from Ojibwa-Ottawa /bizhiw/ (or perhaps from Algonquin). One also sees the pichiou spelling in French, too. Michael >From: "Alan H. Hartley" >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: ASB puza >Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 09:52:27 -0500 > >Drechsel, in his _Mobilian Jargon_ (1997, p. 92) quotes Louisiana records >by Gatschet (1885: Lake Charles fieldwork 1885) and Read (1940: Opelousas >ms. 1862) of a Jargon word pishu 'wild cat'. > >Alan > _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From arem8 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 10 19:18:29 2003 From: arem8 at hotmail.com (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:18:29 -0400 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: John, I believe I've also seen your cat somewhere. I'll keep my eyes peeled. The squash vine-cat connection may also relate to the serpent aspect of the Underwater Cat. The reality of this God involves a continuum of long-bodied entities (not just kitties) --that may include vine plants-- that stretches from leeches and worms to snakes and lizards to weasels, otters and martens to pumas. Incidentally, alll of these animals are associated with the colors white and blue (which may explain why blue trade beads were historically such a hit). Michael >From: Koontz John E >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: ASB puza >Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:58:12 -0600 (MDT) > >On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Heike B�deker wrote: > > What may be interesting to note is that is that many NAN languages >derive > > the word for "puma" from "lynx/bobcat" (BF omahkat��yo, PCA *me'�ipe�iwa > > "puma; Great Lynx, Underwater Manito" as in Nakoda ig^mu-thaNka, Dhegiha > > iGdh�N-seN-sn�de "long-tail-bobcat"). A differentiation between Canadian > > lynx vs. bobcats is rare (bobcat as "spotted lynx": Miami-Illinois > > wiikwee-pinaiwa, Minnesota-Ojibwe gidagaa-bizhiw, BF >k��hstsipimi-nat��yo) > > � as are overlapping habitats... > >Correcting some typos, it's iNgdhaN'=siN=snede, i.e., iNgdhaN < iNgdhaNga >'cat', siN < siNde 'tail' plus, of course, snede 'long'. The truncation >here is probably Omaha-Ponca's relict of Dakotan final vowel truncation. >I hypothesize something like Pre-OP *iNkraNk-siNt-srete here, though, in >fact, the compound may have been formulated fresh sometime since >Proto-Dhegiha from formerly productive iNgdhaN- (combining form of >iNgdhaNga) < *iNkraNk(e) + siN- (combining form of siNde) < *siNt(e) + >snede < *sret(e). Either way, truncated combining forms aren't usual in >modern OP compounds, thought here are a fair number of fossilized >examples. > >Based on Fletcher & LaFlesche, I'd have to agree that iNgdhaN'ga alone is >'bobcat', since they gloss it 'wild cat'. Today this is 'cat'. Lynx is >given as iNgdhaN'ga hiN s^kube 'deep-furred iNgdhaNga'. It is fairly >clear that most Siouan languages don't draw any deep distinction between >different kinds of felidae, but terms can be compound derivatives without >being either (a) new or (b) non-lexicalized, even though underived terms >are a bit easier to found hypotheses upon. The 'mountain lion' term is at >least in archaic form. > >Dhegiha *iNkraN-ka, Dakotan ikmuN, Winnebago (w)ic^aNwaN, and Ioway-Otoe >udwaN seem to reflect a single somewhat irregular set for something like >*ikwuN or *itraN. The only other set with this correspondence is one of >the curcurbit terms, apparently *wa-kwuN or *wa-traN. All these forms are >very non-canonical for Siouan and presumably Proto-Siouan, and I believe >this term has lots of resemblants across North America, so it's probably a >loan set, possibly of Proto-Mississippi Valley age. > >I swear that I encountered at one point in the literature on the >archaeology of the American Bottom (i.e., the bottom lands around St. >Louis - not at all what you're trying to parse) a passing reference to a >statuette of an image of a cat entwined with squash vines. It may have >been an halucination, as I haven't been able to rediscover it in some >casual searching. Actually, the association makes a certain amount of >sense to me, as both cats and cucurbits have somewhat similar inclinations >to a stripy-spotty exterior. What puzzles me is that such an image should >have survived in a form that an archaologist would recognize immediately >as what it was. It seems too much like the answer to a historical >linguist's dream to be plausible. Hence my suspicion that it was an >halucination. There was no picture. > >JEK > > _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sun Aug 10 19:47:17 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:47:17 -0700 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: Don't forget /waapipin$ia/, literally 'white cat', a term that Albert Gatschet got in the late 19th century, which he gives as 'white aquatic monster, traveling by electricity', and 'a mythic white monster, thought to be a whale by most Indians'. There's no evidence that /wiikweepin$ia/ was ever a term for an underwater panther; it's just the name for the Lynx, AKA lynx canadensis. Dave > Our Siouanist friends may be interested in knowing that in Miami-Illinois we > have (at least) six terms for the Underwater Cat: > > /mih$pin$iwa/ 'great cat', /araamipin$ia/ 'underwater cat', /ariimipin$ia/ > 'within-cat', /akimarenia/ 'chiefman', /lenipin$ia/ 'original or ordinary > cat' (this is a late historical form) and the one you mentioned the other > day whose meaning we don't know, /wiikweepin$ia/ '?-cat' From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 10 21:16:45 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:16:45 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: <3F365C2B.6020401@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Aug 2003, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > Drechsel, in his _Mobilian Jargon_ (1997, p. 92) quotes Louisiana > records by Gatschet (1885: Lake Charles fieldwork 1885) and Read (1940: > Opelousas ms. 1862) of a Jargon word pishu 'wild cat'. For that matter, Tutelo has puus, citing Hale via Oliverio. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 10 22:00:02 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:00:02 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Aug 2003, Michael McCafferty wrote: > Kurten, B. and E. Anderson (1980) Pleistocene Mammals of North America. New > York: Columbia University Press I have this, by the way. > Our Siouanist friends may be interested in knowing that in Miami-Illinois we > have (at least) six terms for the Underwater Cat: > > /mih$pin$iwa/ 'great cat', > /araamipin$ia/ 'underwater cat', > /ariimipin$ia/ 'within-cat', > /akimarenia/ 'chiefman', > /lenipin$ia/ 'original or ordinary cat' (this is a late historical form) > and the one you mentioned the other day whose meaning we don't > know, /wiikweepin$ia/ '?-cat' > ($ = sh, i.e., s-hacek). For what it's worth, I've just noticed that wiikwee is actually a pretty good match for that Siouan 'cat' set (per the CSD): PSI *-truN Te igmu' Sa inmu' IO udwaN' (+ yiNGe 'little') (u- ???) Wi wiic^aN'wa(siNiNc^serec^) 'cougar' (long-tailed cat) Dh *i(N)kruN-ka OP iNgdhaN'(ga) Ks iluN Os iluN'ka Bi tmoc^-ka Tu taluskik (I'd guess the root is something like t(a)lus followed by kik indicating something like 'small', though not, I think otherwise attested. Maybe kik is -ka + yiNk(i) 'little', contracted together.) Yuchi has something like atyuNne 'wildcat', though I'm not sure I've rerendered the DOS representation of Yuchi's complex orthography correctly. Northern Iroquoian has a series of terms that I'll try to sum up with Mohawk atiiru. (I think there's a grave accent over the long i.) Note that the Siouan pus forms, per the CSD, are: Hi puus^ihke = puusi + diminutive Ma pu's ~ puse', pu'spuse La pusi'la Tu pus (Probably should be puus) From BARudes at aol.com Sun Aug 10 22:36:42 2003 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 18:36:42 EDT Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: Well, since you have mentioned Iroquoian, I guess I will jump in here. The words for 'cat', 'panther', 'wild cat' are much more diverse than you lead one to believe. The word for an ordinary domestic cat appears as Tuscarora t'a:ku:0, Seneca ta:kos, and similar forms in Cayuga, Oneida, Onondaga, and Mohawk. It is general agreed these are loan words form Dutch de poes. The most widespread word for a 'wild cat' is Cherokee gvhe 'bobcat', Tuscarora k'eNhreks 'wildcat', Wyandot y'eNhri$ 'wildcat', Seneca heN:es 'panther, tiger, leopard', Onondaga k'eNhres 'wildcat', Oneida k`v:les 'wildcat', Mohawk k`vh:es 'wildcat'. Then there is the word you cite, which is a Mohawk word, atí:ru, which has cognate in Oneida (atí:lu). The form you cite as Iroquoian is actually the Mohawk word for a 'skunk', for which there is a cognate in Oneida vt'i:lu 'racoon', Wyandot ati:roN 'skunk', Huron tiron 'skunk', Tuscarora n'e?reN? 'skunk' and Cherokee dili 'skunk'. There are a variety of other words for larger or smaller wild cats in the individual languages. For example, the Tuscarora word for a 'panther' is tkeNw`e:nuh. I would urge great caution in lumping words for 'cat' from diverse North American languages together just because they start with a /p/ (or /k/ in Iroquoian) and contain a sibilant. Sources for borrowing include, but are not limited to English pussy, Dutch (de) poes, Alongquian *pin$iwa, French pichou (as a reborrowing). There is also the possibility that, given that such a range of language have words of a similar form, one is dealing at least in part with some form of independent innovation of an imitative word. Blair From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sun Aug 10 23:09:04 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:09:04 -0700 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: Ummm... I'm confused. Which term here matches wiikwee-? Dave > For what it's worth, I've just noticed that wiikwee is actually a pretty > good match for that Siouan 'cat' set (per the CSD): > > PSI *-truN > > Te igmu' > Sa inmu' > > IO udwaN' (+ yiNGe 'little') (u- ???) > Wi wiic^aN'wa(siNiNc^serec^) 'cougar' (long-tailed cat) > > Dh *i(N)kruN-ka > > OP iNgdhaN'(ga) > Ks iluN > Os iluN'ka > > Bi tmoc^-ka > > Tu taluskik (I'd guess the root is something like t(a)lus followed by kik > indicating something like 'small', though not, I think otherwise attested. > Maybe kik is -ka + yiNk(i) 'little', contracted together.) > > Yuchi has something like atyuNne 'wildcat', though I'm not sure I've > rerendered the DOS representation of Yuchi's complex orthography > correctly. > > Northern Iroquoian has a series of terms that I'll try to sum up with > Mohawk atiiru. (I think there's a grave accent over the long i.) > > Note that the Siouan pus forms, per the CSD, are: > > Hi puus^ihke = puusi + diminutive > > Ma pu's ~ puse', pu'spuse > > La pusi'la > > Tu pus (Probably should be puus) From mary.marino at usask.ca Mon Aug 11 05:14:58 2003 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Mary Marino) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:14:58 -0600 Subject: They Never Surrendered Message-ID: Colleagues, I just noticed that the article handed out at the Conference, entitled "They Never Surrendered: the Lakota Sioux Band That Stayed in Canada" does not have the author's name on it. The author is Ronald J. Papandrea. He attended the papers on Friday afternoon and gave us copies of his article. Mary From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 11 06:12:38 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 00:12:38 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Aug 2003, David Costa wrote: > Ummm... I'm confused. Which term here matches wiikwee-? > > For what it's worth, I've just noticed that wiikwee is actually a pretty > > good match for that Siouan 'cat' set (per the CSD): MI wiikwee- PSI *-truN (one might have plumped for *-kwuN, too) PreDa *ikwuN (i.e., m = w/__VN) Te igmu' Sa inmu' PreIO *wiitwaN ??? IO udwaN' (+ yiNGe 'little') (u- ???) Wi wiic^aN'wa(siNiNc^serec^) 'cougar' (long-tailed cat) PreWi *wii'twaN PreDh *i(N)kruN-ka (*-ka is a noun former) OP iNgdhaN'(ga) Ks iluN (l < *kr) Os iluN'ka (l < *kr) Bi *tmoc^-ka (tmo suggests *twuN) Tu *talus-ka yiNki (attested form regularized as "taluskik") Yuchi atyuNne 'wildcat' Mohawk atiiru To understand how kw matches tw matches tr you have to understand that (a) this is the set, for better or worse, (b) cucurbit (where attested) matches it in form pretty exactly, language by language, but with the prefix wa- instead of (wi)i-, and (c) Siouan avoids clusters like kw or tw, clusters like tr, and labial + rounded vowel sequences like wu(N). Thus wild variations among kwuN ~ kruN ~ twaN ~ truN look like reasonable dissimilation products. 'Cat' and 'cucurbit' are the only sets (?) with this cluster. I suspect something like (?) t(V)ruN wandered in at one point in Siouan, and the twaN and kwuN forms represent dialect adaptations of it. Something like wi(i)twaN or wi(i)kwuN might then explain wiikwee. The w-prefix would result from either (a) attaching wa- as a sort of nominalizer, or from (b) the old scheme of classifier prefixes that Bob Rankin has suggested underlie things like the wii- in Wi wiic^aNwa. In particular I believe it looks to him like wi- might be the "animal" prefix. There are traces of these in Siouan, Catawba and Yuchi. I realize that comparing MI ee to Siouan uN or aN may be problematic, but perhaps aN was sounded N, especially before *yiNk(e) 'small'. OP haN egaN=c^he '(early) morning' < 'night like when' is pronounced hN'gc^hi, to give a for instance, and ppi'=az^i 'bad < not good' is pronounced ppi'=z^i or when the accent shifts just reduced to ppez^i'-. Say, isn't ee rather unusual in this position in MI? As for why terms for cats should be borrowed or possibly associated with terms for cucurbits - well this is perhaps part of what Michael McCafferty is looking at from another direction, though it's up to him to decide if any of this is relevant. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 11 06:41:52 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 00:41:52 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 BARudes at aol.com wrote: > Well, since you have mentioned Iroquoian, I guess I will jump in here. > The words for 'cat', 'panther', 'wild cat' are much more diverse than > you lead one to believe. ... I'm sorry - I didn't mean to suggest that Iroquoian was short of 'cat' terms. I was avoiding citing a fuller set for this particular term, which resembles the Siouan form in a general way at least. > Then there is the word you cite, which is a Mohawk word, atí:ru, which > has cognate in Oneida (atí:lu). The form you cite as Iroquoian is > actually the Mohawk word for a 'skunk', for which there is a cognate > in Oneida vt'i:lu 'racoon', Wyandot ati:roN 'skunk', Huron tiron > 'skunk', Tuscarora n'e?reN? 'skunk' and Cherokee dili 'skunk'. I had the set from Marianne Mithun's summary in the Extending the Rafters collection. I knew that it referred to non-felines, though I wasn't sure which. I omitted to mention in justification that English 'cat' has been extended to cover such non-feline predators - e.g., civet cats, black cats, polecats (whether skunks or ferrets), Ginsterkatze (genets), etc., and one would have to assume something like this process was at work here, too. As far as raccoons are concerned, the French term in my Peterson Field Guide for British and European mammals gives raton laveur. So, in French a raccoon is a rat, not a cat. My Omaha consultant appeared to lump ground squirrels and weasels, for that matter, and the standard Dhegiha terms lump mice and weasels. I have been noticing that folk taxonomies operate along quite different lines from Linnaeus and subsequent scientific taxonomists. This is one of the difficulties with using terms for Linnaean species to try to identify homelands. > I would urge great caution in lumping words for 'cat' from diverse > North American languages together just because they start with a /p/ > (or /k/ in Iroquoian) and contain a sibilant. Sources for borrowing > include, but are not limited to English pussy, Dutch (de) poes, > Alongquian *pin$iwa, French pichou (as a reborrowing). There is also > the possibility that, given that such a range of language have words > of a similar form, one is dealing at least in part with some form of > independent innovation of an imitative word. The point that multiple European sources might be involves is a good one, though I'm not sure that the Siouan data requires it. As far as I can see forms attributed to English puss(y) have all been of the form pu(u)s(i) - except for the As buza form - all much better matches that the Siouan set and MI wiikwee-. Actually, they are better matches than the Siouan set is within itself. Siouanists are perhaps guilty of tunnel vision in comparing all of their 'cat' forms to each other. Maybe they are unrelated loans from different directions. From BARudes at aol.com Mon Aug 11 14:09:50 2003 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:09:50 EDT Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: John, I can barely decide where to begin with a discussion of the problems with your proposal. MI wiikwee- PSI *-truN (one might have plumped for *-kwuN, too) PreDa *ikwuN (i.e., m = w/__VN) Te igmu' Sa inmu' PreIO *wiitwaN ??? IO udwaN' (+ yiNGe 'little') (u- ???) Wi wiic^aN'wa(siNiNc^serec^) 'cougar' (long-tailed cat) PreWi *wii'twaN PreDh *i(N)kruN-ka (*-ka is a noun former) OP iNgdhaN'(ga) Ks iluN (l < *kr) Os iluN'ka (l < *kr) Bi *tmoc^-ka (tmo suggests *twuN) Tu *talus-ka yiNki (attested form regularized as "taluskik") Yuchi atyuNne 'wildcat' Mohawk atiiru A. I assume you are suggesting that the Miami form is a loan from the PreDakotan reconstruction, since it is the only form in your set that bears any resemblance to the Miami form. However, as you point out, the Miami and the PreDakotan forms share only the consonant cluster. B. You are proposing to explain the initial w- in the Miami form from a PreDakotan initial *w- from one or another of several sources, but the *w- is not even reconstructable for the PreDakotan form. C. You are proposing that Proto-Siouan *-truN ' panther, mountain lion' is cognate with or in some other way related to Proto-Iroquoian *ti:l-i/oN 'skunk' (see cognates in previous email), despite the difference in meanings and the problem of where the vowel separating the consonants came from in Iroquoian or went to in Siouan. D. You are proposing that Proto-Siouan *-truN 'panther, mountain lion' is cognate with a purposed Yuchi form atyuNne 'wildcat'. No such form exists! (Please check your sources before citing data from other languages, even in emails; otherwise, you run the risk, as here (and with the gloss for the Mohawk word ('skunk', not 'panther or mountain lion'), of creating new or perpetuating old ghost forms.) A check of Bill Ballard's English-Yuchi lexicon shows that the Yuchi word for 'wildcat' is $athy at N ($ = s hachek, @N = nasal open o). He also cites a form from Gunther Wagner, cat' an' e ($at?ane) which is not the same word. $athy at N also means 'raccoon'. I have seen no evidence (other cognate sets) suggesting that Proto-Siouan *tr corresponds to either Yuchi thy or t?, and there is no explanation for the initial $a- or final - at N or -ane in Yuchi. In summary, a relationship between Proto-Siouan *-truN 'mountain lion, panther', Proto-Iroquoian *ti:l-i/oN 'skunk', and Yuchi $athy at N 'wildcat; raccoon' or $at?ane 'wildcat' is by no means certain. And, a relationship between preDakotan *ikwuN- and Miami wiikwee requires too many ad hoc explanations to be very satisfying. Comparions of data across language families (Siouan, Yuchi, Iroquoian, not to mention Algonquian) requires just as much (if not more) philological rigor and adherence to the comparative method as does comparison within a language family. It helps no one to propose such speculative relationships reminiscent of Greenburg's Amerindian comparisons as the one above. Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon Aug 11 14:38:27 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:38:27 -0500 Subject: FW: Translation from Curtis chair. Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I have this from Rich Doerner in Washington regarding his research into the Curtis chair. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Doerner, Rich (Secretary) Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 11:59 AM To: Rankin, Robert L Subject: RE: Translation from Curtis chair--ADDITION My thanks to you and your team for your work in translating the carved Native American words on the chair; truly incredible research and detective work. I tend to agree with the bottom translation probably being his Indian name for the following reason. A 1929 article appeared in the American Mercury journal on Curtis titled "Heap Big Chief" by a Washington correspondent. The chair is mentioned in the article as follows: ...What is probably one of the most curious throne chairs in the world faces it. Its back is almost six feet in height and of carved and filigreed wood. At the top, in gilt letters, are the words, "The Chief." In the center is a plaque of carving. Around the rim of this piece of artistry is inscribed, also in gold lettering, the fact that the chair is the gift of the Original Curtis Boys and Matthew Quay Glaser. Within are the mysterious words: KO-TNA-U-CA-SHE-THI-CE-XTSI-MO-KO-ONTHIA-ETTO-N, apparently in some secret code, understood only by Charley and his brother tribesmen." In the same article, Curtis explains other things in his office, but it seems to be implied that Curtis did not want to reveal the translation to the author for some reason when he conducted a tour of his office. In the meantime, I am reading 7 books from the Library of Congress on Curtis in the hopes that there may be some reference to his early Indian name. Also, interestingly, the chair no longer has the carving "From the Original Curtis Boys..." on it. In fact, I located a 1932 photograph of Curtis in the chair without the carving; so sometime between 1929 and 1932 the carving was taken off for some reason. Also, I located Matthew Quay Glaser name in a New York Times article when he was invited to a Curtis speech; he is referred to as a New York businessman. Again, I can't thank you enough for all your help. I will keep you informed of our research and findings. Best, Richard -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L [mailto:rankin at ku.edu] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 9:25 PM To: Doerner, Rich (Secretary) Subject: RE: Translation from Curtis chair--ADDITION Mr. Doerner, One small addition to what I sent earlier. I said I was checking on Curtis's Indian name. We have not found it yet, but Crystal Douglas, the staff archaeologist at the Kaw Nation tribal museum, is checking the 1860 or 1865 tribal rolls. This was the period when young Charlie moved to the reservation at Council Grove, KS to live with his Indian grandmother. We may be able to locate the name on tribal rolls if you are unable to locate it in the available literature you are researching. The phrase at the bottom of the medallion may have a meaning like "Charges-his-enemies", or "Attacker" or "Charger". The Osage verb KONTHA means "to charge one's enemies" or "to threaten, menace", so if we find that young Charles Curtis had a name of roughly that meaning in English, then we have solved the puzzle. Otherwise, the bottom line on the carving is probably "It is our wish", as I suggested earlier. The upper inscription is as I reported before. I'll let you know if I find out anything. Best, Bob Rankin Univ. of Kansas From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Aug 11 17:01:06 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:01:06 -0700 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: Depends on what kind of French you're talking about. In ALL the old French documents I've looked at, the French name for the raccoon is 'chat sauvage'. Clearly it was the standard name for the animal. I think this term is now considered a 'Canadianism'. Dave > As far as raccoons are concerned, the French term in my Peterson Field Guide > for British and European mammals gives raton laveur. So, in French a raccoon > is a rat, not a cat. From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Mon Aug 11 17:13:44 2003 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:13:44 -0700 Subject: A little more on Iroquoian In-Reply-To: <78.45438e77.2c68fdae@aol.com> Message-ID: Just a couple things about Iroquoian. Please note that ati:ru and similar words refer (in Mohawk as elsewhere) to the raccoon, not to the skunk, which is ani:tas and similar. I've left off accents, a few differences in vowels, etc. I notice this is what Marianne had in Extending the Rafters. I believe it was Ives Goddard who first suggested that takos and similar words come from Dutch de poes. It spread throughout the Northern Iroquoian languages as the word for the domestic cat. Words for North American Felidae differ among those languages. The most widespread, keNhres and similar words, means long tail, and at least in Seneca heN:es (with a masculine prefix) refers to a larger species (Felis concor?). It's interesting that the name Erie comes from this, originating in the form Eries, apparently interpreted in English as a plural. The -es means long. We don't know much about the Eries, who inhabited northern Ohio, but they were called the Cat Nation. One of the cleverest paper titles I've ever seen was Roy Wright's "The Nation of the Cat: A Long Erie Tale". The smaller species, usually identified in English as wildcat (probably Lynx canadensis), is called in Seneca jikoNhsahseN', which means fat face. In the legend of the founding of the League of the Iroquois it was also the name of the so-called Peace Queen who was the first to receive the message of peace from the peacemaker. None of this has anything to do with Siouan, but since we seem to have branched out into Algonquian... Wally From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Aug 11 17:51:08 2003 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:51:08 -0500 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: Lynx is commonly loup cervier or pichou in N. Amer. French. And see-- 1791 J. LONG Voyages 217 "North Case Cat Pichoux du nord - South Case Cat Pichoux du sud" note: prob. lynx & bobcat respectively 1774 tr. LE PAGE DU PRATZ Hist. Louisiana 149 "we find numbers of wolves, some tigers, Cat-a-mounts, (Pichous) and carrion-crows" From arem8 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 18:05:19 2003 From: arem8 at hotmail.com (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:05:19 -0400 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: Raton laveur is the French French word for raccoon. The North American term for this animal has always been chat sauvage. What is going on here is what is going on presently in Quebec--an attempt by masters of the ivory towers to destroy the local language so as to make it more "French". What you do is put the continental French words in the school books and force the teachers to use them. It works, unfortunately. Little children on the streets in Montreal are now using the monstrosity 'cerf de Virginie' for the Virginia deer, whereas the North American French word has always been 'chevreuil'. This is just one of many examples of the nasty hits that Quebec French is now taking. Imagine. It's as if: Ok, now....everybody, let's all say "lorry," "lift," "petrol".... Michael McCafferty pd Costa" >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: ASB puza >Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:01:06 -0700 > > >Depends on what kind of French you're talking about. In ALL the old French >documents I've looked at, the French name for the raccoon is 'chat >sauvage'. >Clearly it was the standard name for the animal. I think this term is now >considered a 'Canadianism'. > >Dave > > > As far as raccoons are concerned, the French term in my Peterson Field >Guide > > for British and European mammals gives raton laveur. So, in French a >raccoon > > is a rat, not a cat. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 11 19:19:38 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:19:38 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, David Costa wrote: > Depends on what kind of French you're talking about. In ALL the old French > documents I've looked at, the French name for the raccoon is 'chat sauvage'. > Clearly it was the standard name for the animal. I think this term is now > considered a 'Canadianism'. The raton laveur form was supposedly metropolitan, though it has a learned sound to it. I'd be prepared to believe that popular terms might be different. There are apparently feral raccoons in Europe, though I don't have the range map handy at the moment. It's actually handy for the raccoon to be a cat as well as a rat, in the context, of course! From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 11 19:26:35 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:26:35 -0600 Subject: A little more on Iroquoian In-Reply-To: <4647890.1060596824@[192.168.2.34]> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, Wallace Chafe wrote: > I believe it was Ives Goddard who first suggested that takos and similar > words come from Dutch de poes. It spread throughout the Northern Iroquoian > languages as the word for the domestic cat. Words for North American > Felidae differ among those languages. The most widespread, keNhres and > similar words, means long tail, ... Like other terms for mountain lions. But I guess this makes sense if the less marked wildcat is a bobcat/lynx, which hasn't got much of a tail. I can't remember if Heike made this point already! > One of the cleverest paper titles I've ever seen was Roy Wright's "The > Nation of the Cat: A Long Erie Tale". ... > > None of this has anything to do with Siouan, but since we seem to have > branched out into Algonquian... But worth it for Roy Wright's title alone. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 11 19:30:48 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:30:48 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: <3F37D78C.5060203@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > 1774 tr. LE PAGE DU PRATZ Hist. Louisiana 149 > "we find numbers of wolves, some tigers, Cat-a-mounts, (Pichous) and > carrion-crows" Tigers? Would this be jaguars or ocelots? Modern field guides list these as barely intrusive into Texas near the mouth of the Rio Grande, though I think this is somewhat out of date or maybe just wishful thinking. It does allow an author to add a couple of interesting animals to the coverage. JEK From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Mon Aug 11 19:29:14 2003 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (Heike =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=F6deker?=) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:29:14 +0200 Subject: Just 2 minor notes on realia (was: A little more on Iroquoian) In-Reply-To: <4647890.1060596824@[192.168.2.34]> Message-ID: At 10:13 11.08.03 -0700, Wallace Chafe wrote: >I believe it was Ives Goddard who first suggested that takos and similar >words come from Dutch de poes. It spread throughout the Northern Iroquoian >languages as the word for the domestic cat. Words for North American >Felidae differ among those languages. The most widespread, keNhres and >similar words, means long tail, and at least in Seneca heN:es (with a >masculine prefix) refers to a larger species (Felis concor?). It's >interesting that the name Erie comes from this, originating in the form >Eries, apparently interpreted in English as a plural. The -es means long. >We don't know much about the Eries, who inhabited northern Ohio, but they >were called the Cat Nation. One of the cleverest paper titles I've ever >seen was Roy Wright's "The Nation of the Cat: A Long Erie Tale". The "long-tail", of course, matches the pattern already known from Algonquian and Siouan... designating the puma (mountain lion, panther, cougar...), which I'd scientifically preferred to refer to as puma concolor. There has been some debate on whether to group this species together with the very archaic golden cats (profelis spp.), caracals (caracal caracal), possibly also servals (leptailurus serval), but there seems no consensus about this (maybe cold comfort to historical linguists that biologists have this type of group-problems, too...). However, felis should be reserved to the group of Central to Western Eurasian and African small cats (with only the octolobus manul as a close relative) comprising the jungle cat (felis chaus), probably the primary split..., the very archaic blackfooted cat (felis nigripes), Chinese desert cat (felis bieti), sand cat (felis margarita), wildcats (comprising the archaic ornata [in arid regions from Iran to Pakistan and Middle to Central Asia], as well as the silvestris [in Europe, Anatolia and the Caucasus] and ocreata [in the Near East and Africa] groups). >The smaller species, usually identified in English as wildcat (probably >Lynx canadensis), is called in Seneca jikoNhsahseN', which means fat face. >In the legend of the founding of the League of the Iroquois it was also >the name of the so-called Peace Queen who was the first to receive the >message of peace from the peacemaker. "Wildcat" usually is synonymous to bobcat (lynx rufus), if not understood à la lettre as "wild cat", which, alas, is very common, too, and then difficult to guess what really is meant... Also interesting to see that the puma playing important mythological roles is widespread, too... All the best, Heike From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Aug 11 20:01:41 2003 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:01:41 -0500 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: > Tigers? Would this be jaguars or ocelots? > JEK In Amer. use, usually 'cougar', e.g., Alexander Henry 1776 in Travels & Adventures (1901) 305: "The animals, which I saw alive on the Plains, are oxen, red-deer and wolves; but, I saw also the skins of foxes, bears, and a small number of panthers, sometimes called tigers, and most properly, cougars." And 1894 in Dict. Americanisms: "The panther was long called a 'tyger' in the Carolinas, and a 'lyon' elsewhere". Red-deer: for goodness' sake, let's not get into cervids until the felids are all explicated ;) Alan From BARudes at aol.com Mon Aug 11 21:21:53 2003 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:21:53 EDT Subject: A little more on Iroquoian Message-ID: A couple of things: First, since I was hasty in my glossing of the words meaning 'skunk', 'raccoon', etc. this morning, and since Wally's comment ("…and related forms") is ambiguous, I give here the entire cognate set with glosses and citations to sources. The gloss for the reconstructed forms is based on Cherokee and Tuscarora sharing the same gloss; the set as a whole was glossed 'skunk' in Mithun 1984; however, Mohawk, Oneida and Wyandot (?) may have preserved the original meaning. PI *t'i:?r 'skunk' (Rudes1995:53) Ch ti:li 'skunk' (King 1978), di?li 'skunk' (Holmes and Smith 1977:257) PNI *t'i:?roN 'skunk' T n'e?reN? 'skunk' (Rudes 1999:347) OH tiron ' a kind of leopard or wild cat' (Sagard, cited in Tooker 1991:158) W at'i:roN ('raccoon' ?) (I could not locate this word in Barbeau's material at the moment, but the words for wildcat and skunk are different) Oe vtil'uN 'raccoon' (Michelson 2002:351) M at`i:uN 'raccoon' (Michelson 1973:33) Second, contrary to the proposal made in Wright 1974, Iroquoian *k'eNhreks cannot come from a construction meaning 'long tail'. The Mohawk, Oneida, Old Tuscarora, and Tuscarora words show that the Proto-Northern Iroquoian word was *k'eNhreks with final *-eks, not *-es. The final -es in the Seneca and Onondaga forms, and the final -i$ of Wyandot result from regular processes of cluster reduction. The Proto-Iroquoian form may or may not have ended with *-ks; too little is known about the relationship of final clusters between Northern Iroquoian and Cherokee. The PNI root for 'be long' is *-e:ts-/-i:ts-/-oN:ts-, not **-e:s. It appears in Tuscarora as -e:0, not **-e:s. Since the verb always consists of a vowel followed by a fricative, it cannot be part of the ending of *k'eNhreks. Furthermore, one cannot reconstruct a root **-ihrek- or *-ihre- 'tail' for Proto-Iroquoian or Proto-Northern Iroquoian. The roots in the various languages are: T -(i)?rhweN0- (Rudes 1999:271), Se -ihkaR- (Chafe 1967:#756), C -?nheNhts-/-?nhweNhts-, Oo -iteN?R- (Woodbury 2003:1386), Oe -tahs-/-taks- (Michelson 2002:428), M -itahs- (Michelson 1973:62), Huron -itah$- (Fraser 1920:455). The Tuscarora and Cayuga words point to a root *-?rhweNts-; the Mohawk, Oneida, and Huron words point to a root *-itahs-. There are additional problems with the proposed derivation of the name Erie from *k'eNhreks that I will leave for another time; in any event, looking at Roy's analysis 31 years after he presented it, it does not look so good. As it stands, PI *k'eNhre(ks) looks like an unanalyzable form. PI *k'VNhre(ks) Ch gvhe 'bobcat' (Feeling 1975:26) PNI *k'eNhreks T k'eNhreks 'mountain lion' (Rudes 1999:252) OT caunerex 'wildcat-skin' (Lawson 1709) W yeNhr'i$ 'lion' (Barbeau 1960:118) S heN:es 'panther, tiger, leopard' (Chafe 1967:#562) OOo guenhrach 'tigre' (Shea 1860:98) Oo k'eNhes 'wildcat' (Mithun 1984:265) Oe k'vleks 'lion' (Michelson 2002:477) M k`v:reks 'wildcat' (Mithun 1984:265) Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu Mon Aug 11 22:45:18 2003 From: mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Marianne Mithun) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:45:18 -0700 Subject: A little more on Iroquoian In-Reply-To: <4647890.1060596824@[192.168.2.34]> Message-ID: And a couple more. Wally is right about the raccoon and skunk. The wildcat words in Mohawk and Oneida are actually a bit different from what Blair lists, and would suggest a different interpretation from what we find in Seneca: Mohawk ken:reks (with en representing a nasalized caret, with falling tone, indicative of an earlier h). Marianne Quoting Wallace Chafe : > Just a couple things about Iroquoian. Please note that ati:ru and similar > words refer (in Mohawk as elsewhere) to the raccoon, not to the skunk, > which is ani:tas and similar. I've left off accents, a few differences in > vowels, etc. I notice this is what Marianne had in Extending the Rafters. > > I believe it was Ives Goddard who first suggested that takos and similar > words come from Dutch de poes. It spread throughout the Northern Iroquoian > languages as the word for the domestic cat. Words for North American > Felidae differ among those languages. The most widespread, keNhres and > similar words, means long tail, and at least in Seneca heN:es (with a > masculine prefix) refers to a larger species (Felis concor?). It's > interesting that the name Erie comes from this, originating in the form > Eries, apparently interpreted in English as a plural. The -es means long. > We don't know much about the Eries, who inhabited northern Ohio, but they > were called the Cat Nation. One of the cleverest paper titles I've ever > seen was Roy Wright's "The Nation of the Cat: A Long Erie Tale". > > The smaller species, usually identified in English as wildcat (probably > Lynx canadensis), is called in Seneca jikoNhsahseN', which means fat face. > In the legend of the founding of the League of the Iroquois it was also the > name of the so-called Peace Queen who was the first to receive the message > of peace from the peacemaker. > > None of this has anything to do with Siouan, but since we seem to have > branched out into Algonquian... > > Wally > > > > > From kopris at flash.net Tue Aug 12 02:01:03 2003 From: kopris at flash.net (CRAIG KOPRIS) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 19:01:03 -0700 Subject: A little more on Iroquoian In-Reply-To: <1ce.f22569b.2c6962f1@aol.com> Message-ID: Here are some missing Wyandot examples from Barbeau. Note that many of them are morphologically complex. 3 = voiced palatal fricative --- BARudes at aol.com wrote: > W at'i:roN ('raccoon' ?) (I could not locate > this word in Barbeau's > material at > the moment, but the words for > wildcat and skunk are > different) Raccoon: tiroN? (Barbeau 1915:192) 'the Raccoon' Barbeau usually gave another term instead: kwe3'a:kweh (Barbeau N.d.:429) 'raccoon' N.B. this manuscript is highly unreliable t'u:kwe3`a:kweh (Barbeau 1960:093 #53) 'raccoon' det'u:kwe3`a:kwe:h (Barbeau 1960:093 #62) 'the raccoon' Skunk: ditats'i?ah (Barbeau 1960:097 #22, 34; N.d.:352, 429) '(the) skunk; (the) strong smell' Felines: tak'u:$ (Barbeau 1960:131 #20; N.d.:429) 'a cat' sk`eN?kw'a? (Barbeau 1960:189 #39, 190 #17; 1915:250; N.d.:429) 'wild-cat (brave although small)' tehutsi?tsut (Barbeau N.d.:430) 'a variety of wild cat' and a set of examples based on 'to scalp' Barbeau, Marius. 1915. Huron and Wyandot Mythology: With an Appendix Containing Earlier Published Records. Canada Department of Mines Geological Survey Memoir 80, Anthropological Series 11. Ottawa: Government Printing Bureau --. 1960. Huron-Wyandot Traditional Narratives: In Translations and Native Texts. National Museum of Canada Bulletin 165, Anthropological Series 47. --. N.d. Huron-Wyandot Dictionary. Ms. Canadian Museum of Civilization, Ottawa. - Craig Kopris From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Tue Aug 12 04:22:11 2003 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:22:11 -0700 Subject: Apologies to Roy Wright In-Reply-To: <1ce.f22569b.2c6962f1@aol.com> Message-ID: I did Roy Wright a disservice if I implied that the association of Eries with long tails was his idea. In fact he just mentioned it as one thing that had been suggested by others in the past. The correct title of his paper was The People of the Panther - A Long Erie Tale (National Museum of Man, Mercury Series No. 10, Ottawa, 1974). The title wasn't meant to suggest his endorsement of that explanation. I mentioned it in my message only because I thought the multifaceted pun was so clever. I'm very grateful to Blair for setting me straight on that word for mountain lion etc. With ks at the end, it couldn't mean "long". As Blair said, Senecas can't tell final s from ts from ks. I think Lounsbury once suggested that Senecas might have folk-etymologized words ending in -es as if they meant something was long, even when they didn't originally. And it isn't at all clear what the incorporated noun here would have been. It looks as if everything after the pronominal prefix was *-ihreks, where the s looks like the habitual aspect, and the k might just possibly be "eat", but what was it that those cats ate? Of more general interest might be the suggestion that Northern Iroquoians distinguished two kinds of native cats. One may have been Puma concolor, if that's a better name for the genus. That's the one referred to by the above word. I guess it had a long tail anyway, even if that's not what the word meant. The name later got extended to tigers in circuses, which became popular in the 19th century. Sometimes lions too, but not in Seneca, where the lion word is interesting for reasons I won't go into here. The other animal recognized in precontact times was one or more species of the genus Lynx. It was smaller, without much of a tail. "Fat face" seems a good name for it. There the Seneca etymology is uncontroversial. I'm hoping this is a fair summary of the ethnozoology, which we can't necessarily expect to coincide with Linnaean categories, as was pointed out. Some of you may think that Marianne and I aren't on speaking terms. She's in Australia. Wally From arem8 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 09:35:49 2003 From: arem8 at hotmail.com (Michael McCafferty) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 05:35:49 -0400 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: >From: "David Costa" >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: ASB puza >Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:47:17 -0700 > >Don't forget /waapipin$ia/, literally 'white cat', a term that Albert >Gatschet got in the late 19th century, which he gives as 'white aquatic >monster, traveling by electricity', and 'a mythic white monster, thought to >be a whale by most Indians'. Number 7! > >There's no evidence that /wiikweepin$ia/ was ever a term for an underwater >panther; it's just the name for the Lynx, AKA lynx canadensis. > Actually, there is good evidence for this. See the Illinois-French dictionary (a.k.a. Gravier dictionary) entry <8ic8epichia>, which reads "8ic8epichia /vide/ akimareni8a". In passing, the /wiikwee-/ may actually be /wiihkwee-/, referring to the *bottom* of things. Michael >Dave > > > > Our Siouanist friends may be interested in knowing that in >Miami-Illinois we > > have (at least) six terms for the Underwater Cat: > > > > /mih$pin$iwa/ 'great cat', /araamipin$ia/ 'underwater cat', >/ariimipin$ia/ > > 'within-cat', /akimarenia/ 'chiefman', /lenipin$ia/ 'original or >ordinary > > cat' (this is a late historical form) and the one you mentioned the >other > > day whose meaning we don't know, /wiikweepin$ia/ '?-cat' _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Aug 13 01:44:44 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:44:44 -0700 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: What other words have that initial? > In passing, the /wiikwee-/ may actually be /wiihkwee-/, referring to the > *bottom* of things. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Aug 13 02:06:45 2003 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:06:45 -0500 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: > What other words have that initial? > > >>In passing, the /wiikwee-/ may actually be /wiihkwee-/, referring to the >>*bottom* of things. (Lake Superior) Ojibway: Nichols & Nyholm: wiikwe-gamaa 'be a bay' (also as placename 'Fond du Lac') Baraga: wiikwed 'bay' wiikweya 'there is a bay' wiikwe-gamigak aki 'in a corner of the earth' wiikwe-ssagak 'in a corner of the room' Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Aug 13 02:22:44 2003 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:22:44 -0500 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: > What other words have that initial? > > >>In passing, the /wiikwee-/ may actually be /wiihkwee-/, referring to the >>*bottom* of things. Plains Cree (Wolfart & Ahenakew): wîhkwêhcâ- 'go around as land, be curved as land, be the sweep of the valley' wîhkwêtakâw- 'corner made by wooden walls, corner of the floor, corner of the house' wîhkwêskamikâ- 'go around someone, head someone off' wîhkwêstê- 'be placed around, stand in the shape of a curve' wîhkwêtâpânâskw- 'rounded toboggan, curved sleigh' So the Cree forms suggest the meaning 'curve around'. It's the bottom of something in the sense that the vertex of the curve is as far (into a corner or a valley) or as deep (into a bay) as one can go. Alan From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Aug 13 02:28:21 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:28:21 -0700 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: [Sorry for the prolonged non-Siouan digressions here...] It's also seen in Ottawa /wiikwe/ 'bay' (from Rhodes' dictionary). Anyway, I thought of that comparison too, but that initial doesn't mean 'bottom'. It actually seems to mean 'corner, cove, angle', as in those last two Ojibwe examples. In old Illinois it's seen in: 8ic8egamik8i 'le coin, l'angles de la maison' 8ic8egami8i 'anse de riviere, enfoncement' 8ic8eki8i 'enfoncement de la prairie, maniere d'anse' This last form, phonemic /wiihkweehkiwi/, gets translated in modern Miami as 'bay, cove, bayou, bottomland'. Either way, it's not equivalent to English 'bottom', so I don't see how it's cognate with /wiikweepin$ia/ 'lynx'. David ---------- >From: "Alan H. Hartley" >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: ASB puza >Date: Tue, Aug 12, 2003, 7:06 pm > >> What other words have that initial? >> >>>In passing, the /wiikwee-/ may actually be /wiihkwee-/, referring to the >>>*bottom* of things. > > (Lake Superior) Ojibway: > > Nichols & Nyholm: > wiikwe-gamaa 'be a bay' (also as placename 'Fond du Lac') > > Baraga: > wiikwed 'bay' > wiikweya 'there is a bay' > wiikwe-gamigak aki 'in a corner of the earth' > wiikwe-ssagak 'in a corner of the room' > > Alan > From rankin at ku.edu Wed Aug 13 21:47:56 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:47:56 -0500 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: [RLR: ] I don't have a lot to add to the voluminous correspondence on ASB 'cat' except to mention that the way you *call* your cat in a whole string of European colonial (and other) languages is "pis, pis, pis" or "pus, pus, pus". This may or may not have anything to do with the ASB word, but I'm inclined to agree with David that English is the probable source. > I can barely decide where to begin with a discussion of the problems with your proposal. > MI wiikwee- > PSI *-truN (one might have plumped for *-kwuN, too) [RLR: ] I don't know that I'd even consider this etymon reconstructible in Proto-Siouan. It *may* be a very early loan (I don't recall its occurring in Mandan or Missouri River languages, so not PSi), but it may just as well have been borrowed multiple times from without and within Siouan. As John quite rightly points out, the cluster is not acceptable in the vast majority of Siouan phonologies. /tr/ just isn't possible, thus the systematic dissimilations. This means that the existence of the critter terms in -tirVN- in Iroquoian (working from Marianne's "Extending the rafters" paper, as I recall), where they are reconstructible, became interesting and pertinent. Likewise the Yuchi term in -tyVN- (given the y/r relationship within Siouan). I didn't see any claim of cognacy in John's posting. I think that what we assume is that this root is a "widespread form" that has been borrowed and reborrowed in the eastern part of the continent. All Siouanists would want to say, I expect, is that the word didn't likely originate with Siouan because of its phonology. This is not the only animal term that has diffused widely. Mary Haas discussed the 'bison' term and Michael Nichols has collected a large group of such Wanderwoerter over the years, especially from the West. > B. You are proposing to explain the initial w- in the Miami form from a PreDakotan initial *w- from one or another of several sources, but the *w- is not even reconstructable for the PreDakotan form. It doesn't need to be. *Wi- is reconstructible for a host of animal terms in PSi or Proto-Mississippi Valley Siouan -- far more than is possible by coincidence. If it's reconstructible at a higher node than pre-Dakotan, it can be inferred for that language unless there's evidence it was lost at an earlier node too. But we're not really talking about just Dakotan here; this term is found all over Mississippi Valley Siouan and also in Biloxi. > C. You are proposing that Proto-Siouan *-truN ' panther, mountain lion' is cognate with or in some other way related to Proto-Iroquoian *ti:l-i/oN 'skunk' (see cognates in previous email), despite the difference in meanings and the problem of where the vowel separating the consonants came from in Iroquoian or went to in Siouan. > D. You are proposing that Proto-Siouan *-truN 'panther, mountain lion' is cognate with a purposed Yuchi form atyuNne 'wildcat'. No such form exists! (Please check your sources before citing data from other languages, even in emails; otherwise, you run the risk, as here (and with the gloss for the Mohawk word ('skunk', not 'panther or mountain lion'), of creating new or perpetuating old ghost forms.) A check of Bill Ballard's . . . That is *Lew* Ballard. I tried "Bill" with him when I first met him and got corrected. Nowadays he accepts "William" but not Bill. > . . . English-Yuchi lexicon shows that the Yuchi word for 'wildcat' is $athy at N ($ = s hachek, @N = nasal open o). He also cites a form from Gunther Wagner, cat' an' e ($at?ane) which is not the same word. $athy at N also means 'raccoon'. I have seen no evidence (other cognate sets) suggesting that Proto-Siouan *tr corresponds to either Yuchi thy or t?, and there is no explanation for the initial $a- or final - at N or -ane in Yuchi. I've seen no claim of cognacy for this term. John is citing it from a DOS version of the Comparative Siouan Dict. that didn't have the fonts to reproduce Ballard's rounded V preceding the nasal. That is corrected in Windows fonts. Any central or back vowel borrowed into Siouan with a following N will be adapted as uN or aN. Whether it was schwa, A, open O, close O or U in the source language doesn't matter. The semantics remain difficult, but the result in Siouan is uniform. We've seen from the Iroquoian discussion that the semantic questions lie there (where the form appears to be reconstructible). This may suggest a single borrowing into Siouan at a considerably earlier time, but it's very hard to say. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Aug 13 22:48:30 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:48:30 -0700 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: One thing that I find interesting about all these European 'cat' words being borrowed into Native languages is that they're ALL from p-initial forms, like 'puss' or 'poes'. Oddly, NO language that's been mentioned here so far borrowed plain old English 'cat', unless that's what's behind Ojibwe /gaazhagens/ 'cat'. > [RLR: ] I don't have a lot to add to the voluminous correspondence on ASB > 'cat' except to mention that the way you *call* your cat in a whole string of > European colonial (and other) languages is "pis, pis, pis" or "pus, pus, pus". > This may or may not have anything to do with the ASB word, but I'm inclined to > agree with David that English is the probable source. From arem8 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 00:44:34 2003 From: arem8 at hotmail.com (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:44:34 -0400 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: Oh, this is *very* interesting, and even better. There was a famous cove in the Wabash known as /pin$iwamootayi/, the 'cat's belly'. This place name subsequently gave its name to the stream running into the cove, which today is known as Wildcat Creek. Michael >From: "David Costa" >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: ASB puza >Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:28:21 -0700 > >[Sorry for the prolonged non-Siouan digressions here...] > >It's also seen in Ottawa /wiikwe/ 'bay' (from Rhodes' dictionary). > >Anyway, I thought of that comparison too, but that initial doesn't mean >'bottom'. It actually seems to mean 'corner, cove, angle', as in those last >two Ojibwe examples. In old Illinois it's seen in: > >8ic8egamik8i 'le coin, l'angles de la maison' >8ic8egami8i 'anse de riviere, enfoncement' >8ic8eki8i 'enfoncement de la prairie, maniere d'anse' > >This last form, phonemic /wiihkweehkiwi/, gets translated in modern Miami >as >'bay, cove, bayou, bottomland'. > >Either way, it's not equivalent to English 'bottom', so I don't see how >it's >cognate with /wiikweepin$ia/ 'lynx'. > >David > > > >---------- > >From: "Alan H. Hartley" > >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > >Subject: Re: ASB puza > >Date: Tue, Aug 12, 2003, 7:06 pm > > > > >> What other words have that initial? > >> > >>>In passing, the /wiikwee-/ may actually be /wiihkwee-/, referring to >the > >>>*bottom* of things. > > > > (Lake Superior) Ojibway: > > > > Nichols & Nyholm: > > wiikwe-gamaa 'be a bay' (also as placename 'Fond du Lac') > > > > Baraga: > > wiikwed 'bay' > > wiikweya 'there is a bay' > > wiikwe-gamigak aki 'in a corner of the earth' > > wiikwe-ssagak 'in a corner of the room' > > > > Alan > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Aug 14 03:17:45 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:17:45 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Aug 2003, David Costa wrote: > Oddly, NO language that's been mentioned here so far borrowed plain > old English 'cat', unless that's what's behind Ojibwe /gaazhagens/ > 'cat'. Looks like the word for ice cream to me. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Aug 14 03:47:48 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:47:48 -0600 Subject: ASB puza (corners and containers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Aug 2003, David Costa wrote: > It's also seen in Ottawa /wiikwe/ 'bay' (from Rhodes' dictionary). > > Anyway, I thought of that comparison too, but that initial doesn't mean > 'bottom'. It actually seems to mean 'corner, cove, angle', as in those last > two Ojibwe examples. In old Illinois it's seen in: ... Interestingly there's a set *(i-)reet(e) in Proto-Siouan that has more or less the sort of coverage. Not related, of course, to the Algonquian set in any way that I am aware. Cr dee'sa 'on the bank, edge' Hi ree'ta 'edge, rim' Te/Sa c^hete' 'bottom of vessel' Te ic^he'te 'lip or rim of vessel' Wi ree'c^ 'bottom' OP idhe'de 'corner of mouth' Ks ye'j^e 'peninsula, inside bend of a stream' Os dhe'ce(waspe) 'dregs' The c^h is a bit odd in Dakotan. One would expect *yete, given y < *r, and c^h < *y. The only way this might work (from my perspective) would be if the form were actually *(i)-yeet(e), where *i is, of course, the third person inalienable 'its'. In that case, it would be the *r reflexes in Dhegiha which were odd-balls, resulting from rhoticism of *y in the environment *i _ V. The i- in the Teton form might well be i 'mouth', then, but that really only makes sense if we take c^hete' 'bottom of vessel' as a part for whole reference to the entire vessel in this case, i.e., ic^he'te = 'mouth of vessel', not 'mouth of bottom of vessel'. On the other hand, if i- is a possessive here, then we have c^hete' 'bottom of vessel' = 'curve of vessel' and ic^he'te 'its lip' = 'its curve (of vessel)'. The latter is semantically clearer, but phonologically less clear (at least for me). JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Aug 14 04:03:43 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 22:03:43 -0600 Subject: Just 2 minor notes on realia (was: A little more on Iroquoian) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030811201647.009fa1f0@pop3.netcologne.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, Heike Bödeker wrote: > ... , which I'd scientifically preferred to refer to as puma concolor. > There has been some debate on whether to group this species together > with the very archaic golden cats (profelis spp.), caracals (caracal > caracal), possibly also servals (leptailurus serval), but there seems > no consensus about this (maybe cold comfort to historical linguists > that biologists have this type of group-problems, too...). ... By way of background, I belive taxonomists have waffled over the years (even the last 50 years) over whether to classify all (or most) felidae in one large genus Felis, or in several - Felis (sensu stricto), Panthera, Lynx, Puma, Caracal, Profelis, Leptailurus, etc. I think the latter approach is becoming more common (again). The innocent linguist, conslting reference works from a variety of sources and times is easily caught unawares. I've always found cases where the specific (the second term) changes gender as the genus changes gender to be particularly exciting ... And then of course there are specifics that are invariant across one or more genders in their Latinate form - really cool. Or how about Morus rubra 'Mulberry'? Tree names in -us are feminine in Latin! Oooeee! JEK From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Aug 14 03:56:58 2003 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 22:56:58 -0500 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: I find this very interesting too, and I think it may say a lot about the mechanics of borrowing. Was this really straight-up borrowing from standard English, or was "puss" actually the standard "Indian" term for "cat" in a jargon used by frontiersmen and traders to communicate with the Indians wherever they met them? Can we be sure that "puss" is even any more native to English than it is to the various Indian languages that evidently borrowed the term? I've just been looking for what I could find about this word in some etymological dictionaries. These seem to agree that the origin of the word is obscure. It exists notably in English, Dutch (poes), Low German, Norwegian, Danish, dialectal Swedish, Irish, Gaelic (all puus or pus) and Lithuanian (with 'zh' in place of 's'). It is not the standard word for "cat" in any of these languages, but is used for calling or naming cats. (Romanian, however, seems to have taken the word and added a diminutive to get their standard word for "cat", pisica.) Except for Romanian, these are all languages of the Baltic and North Sea area. In English, Norwegian and Danish, at least, the word can also mean "hare" or "rabbit", though "cat" seems to be the predominant meaning. In English, at least, it doesn't seem to be attested from the pre-modern period. I couldn't find it in dictionaries of Old English, Middle English, or Old Icelandic. The earliest reference in the Oxford English Dictionary is from 1530, with someone mentioning "puss, my cat". (The term "puss" precedes the diminutive term "pussy", which apparently doesn't show up until the 1700's.) I'm wondering if the term couldn't be explained as follows: First, we have the Proto-Algonquian term *pes^iwa for "feline". This word evolves to something like *poos in some east coast Algonquian dialects. Somewhere around 1500, North Atlantic sailors of the English/Teutonic sphere begin to reach the northeast coast of North America. Intercourse is established, and the sailors find that the Indian term for their ship-board cat is something like "puss". They pick up this term, and use it humerously on cats from there on. This usage becomes common with sailors of this region, and the word finds its way back into their home countries. Later, as English/Teutonic peoples begin to settle and trade in North America, they always revert hopefully to the Indian term "puss" when they want to refer to a cat in "Indian". The various Indian peoples, for their part, pick up on the term used by the whites, and adopt it from the trade jargon into their own languages. A couple of questions here: Could we get an expansion of the acronyms BF and PC for those of us who are Algonquian-challenged? Also, without presuppositions about which way borrowing is supposed to have gone, are BF poos, PC poosii- and Penobscot p at so (@ = schwa) reasonable reflexes of Proto-Algonquian? Thanks to everyone for this discussion. It's been very interesting! Rory "David Costa" cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: ASB puza owner-siouan at lists.c olorado.edu 08/13/2003 05:48 PM Please respond to siouan One thing that I find interesting about all these European 'cat' words being borrowed into Native languages is that they're ALL from p-initial forms, like 'puss' or 'poes'. Oddly, NO language that's been mentioned here so far borrowed plain old English 'cat', unless that's what's behind Ojibwe /gaazhagens/ 'cat'. > [RLR: ] I don't have a lot to add to the voluminous correspondence on ASB > 'cat' except to mention that the way you *call* your cat in a whole string of > European colonial (and other) languages is "pis, pis, pis" or "pus, pus, pus". > This may or may not have anything to do with the ASB word, but I'm inclined to > agree with David that English is the probable source. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Aug 14 04:22:24 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 22:22:24 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: <3F37F625.1010004@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > > Tigers? Would this be jaguars or ocelots? > > JEK > > In Amer. use, usually 'cougar', ... OK. I asked because the source you cited opposed tigers to cat-a-mounts, which I usually take to be Felis concolor, which, incidentally, in Colorado is almost invariably called a mountain lion. > "we find numbers of wolves, some tigers, Cat-a-mounts, (Pichous) ..." Returning to an issue Heike raised, Kurten and Anderson (op. cit., p. 194) report "D. B. Adams (personal communication, 1979) has suggested that the puma and Acinonyx [cheetas] have a common origin, and Acinonyx studeri does have a number of pumalike characters (Savage, 1960)." Oddly enough, several species (or evolutionary stages?) of Acynonyx have been identified in Pleistocene North America (K & A, pp. 192-194). And, for that matter, also "lions," or at least members of the Panthera extreme of Felis. Pleistocene North America seems to have been a very different sort of place. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Aug 14 04:50:04 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 22:50:04 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Aug 2003, Rory M Larson wrote: > I'm wondering if the term couldn't be explained as follows: First, we > have the Proto-Algonquian term *pes^iwa for "feline". This word > evolves to something like *poos in some east coast Algonquian > dialects. Somewhere around 1500, North Atlantic sailors of the > English/Teutonic sphere begin to reach the northeast coast of North > America. Intercourse is established, and the sailors find that the > Indian term for their ship-board cat is something like "puss". That's at least an extremely interesting hypothesis. I wonder what Indoeuropean-based etymologists would make of it? A lot would depend on an exact dating and maybe locations of the first citations of the European forms, and on the availability of suitable model forms. You might want to look also at Basque and Portuguese. I believe there are traces of a Basque-based pidgin in New England - an article in Anthropological Linguistics? Most of the very early contact with New England and adjacent areas involved the whaling and cod-fishing industries, and I have the impression that it's thought that this began before Columbus' voyages, or not long after, and more or less independently of them. The whalers and fishermen processed their catch on shore, especially on off-shore islands and overwintered in some cases to do this - which certainly produced pre-Colonial contact. They were generally secretive about their activities to avoid competition, and their activity is more evidenced archaeologically and linguistically (the Basque pidgin) (and by the evidence of their catches) than in narrative documents. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Aug 14 04:56:51 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:56:51 -0700 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: > A couple of questions here: Could we get an expansion of the acronyms BF and > PC for those of us who are Algonquian-challenged? Also, without > presuppositions about which way borrowing is supposed to have gone, are BF > poos, PC poosii- and Penobscot p at so (@ = schwa) reasonable reflexes of > Proto-Algonquian? I think 'BF' is Blackfoot; I'm not sure what 'PC' is supposed to stand for; among Algonquianists, it usually stands for 'Plains Cree', but the Plains Cree form for 'cat' is /pisiw/ (unless it also borrowed the English word). The Cree form and Penobscot /p at so/ are both regular from Proto-Algonquian */pe$iwa/ ('$' = s-hacek). I think the historical development of Blackfoot from Proto-Algonquian is too ill-understood to be sure whether 'poos' could come from */pe$iwa/. At least, *I* don't know for sure. Incidentally, some Algonquian languages of New England also seem to have European loans for 'cat': Pequot Mohegan Massachusett & plural Nipmuck The Mohegan-Pequot and Massachusett forms, at least, seem to be phonemic /po:hpo:hs/. Dave From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Thu Aug 14 09:07:08 2003 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (Heike =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=F6deker?=) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:07:08 +0200 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 21:56 13.08.03 -0700, David Costa wrote: > > A couple of questions here: Could we get an expansion of the acronyms > BF and > > PC for those of us who are Algonquian-challenged? Also, without > > presuppositions about which way borrowing is supposed to have gone, are BF > > poos, PC poosii- and Penobscot p at so (@ = schwa) reasonable reflexes of > > Proto-Algonquian? If asked this way: no, because the former two and the latter are two distinct etyma. >I think 'BF' is Blackfoot; I'm not sure what 'PC' is supposed to stand for; >among Algonquianists, it usually stands for 'Plains Cree', Yep. >but the Plains Cree form for 'cat' is /pisiw/ (unless it also borrowed the >English word). Indeed, as well as French minou. >I think the historical development of Blackfoot from Proto-Algonquian is >too ill-understood to be sure whether 'poos' could come from */pe$iwa/. At >least, *I* don't know for sure. Well, we at least have Proulx' outline... according to which the expected reflex of *pešiwa would be a hypothetical **pihsi (in standard orthography). But then, BF uses a different basic term anyway: natááyo (with accretive nasal, occasionally subject to initial change, and AFAIK nevertheless without Algonquian cognate... Somehow I couldn't help being vaguely reminded of the makeup of the Athapaskan word for "lynx" as outlined by Pinnow, which looks like a categorizer-formation "the one who ...es", just that in both cases one can't indentify an underlying verbal root, e.g. as in lynx from PIE *leukw- referring to the glowing eyes, or maybe also whatever the bobcat did in the pumpkin field... [eating the turkey raw? but no, this was the maize field IIRC...], but this is all too speculative...). All the best, Heike From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Aug 14 13:52:55 2003 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:52:55 -0500 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > You might want to look also at Basque and Portuguese. I believe there are > traces of a Basque-based pidgin in New England - an article in > Anthropological Linguistics? P. Bakker in Anthropol. Ling. XXXI. (1989) 117-147 From kopris at flash.net Thu Aug 14 14:03:31 2003 From: kopris at flash.net (CRAIG KOPRIS) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 07:03:31 -0700 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Before trying to assign a source language to cat terms, it might be best to rule out onomatopeia first! I've encountered the claim (I don't have the reference handy anymore) that (domestic) cat terms around the world are usually based on either: @ = schwa $ = esh T = pharyngealized voiceless alveolar stop 1. the sound a cat makes; e.g., English 'meow', Chinese 'miao' 2. an intermittent high-frequency sound that attracts a cat's attention (pspspspsps); e.g. English 'pussy', Pashto 'p@$ey' 3. another call to get a cat's attention (ktktktk); e.g. English 'cat', 'kitten', Arabic 'q at Ta' I wouldn't be surprised if the ancient Egyptians, who domesticated the cat in the first place, used one of the onomatopeic "roots". Craig Kopris --- Rory M Larson wrote: > Can we be sure that "puss" is even any more native > to > English than it is to the various Indian languages > that > evidently borrowed the term? From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Aug 14 14:45:06 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:45:06 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: <20030814140331.69868.qmail@web80208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, CRAIG KOPRIS wrote: > Before trying to assign a source language to cat > terms, it might be best to rule out onomatopeia first! > I've encountered the claim (I don't have the > reference handy anymore) that (domestic) cat terms > around the world are usually based on either: ... > 1. the sound a cat makes; e.g., English 'meow', > Chinese 'miao' .... > 3. another call to get a cat's attention (ktktktk); > e.g. English 'cat', 'kitten', Arabic 'q at Ta' > > I wouldn't be surprised if the ancient Egyptians, who > domesticated the cat in the first place, used one of > the onomatopeic "roots". Gardiner's Egyptian Grammar 3rd Ed., p. 459, gives miw, where the i has a left opening hook over it and is apparently supposed to represent a y, i.e., myw (missing the vowels, of course). So, you're quite right. I hadn't realized that forms other than "meow" were considered onomatopoeic, and your Pashto form puts pVS forms further afield in IE as well. Webster's reports that kitten has evolved from a Old French diminutive form chaton. I gather kit is a back formation. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Aug 14 14:50:14 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:50:14 -0600 Subject: Just 2 minor notes on realia (was: A little more on Iroquoian) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Aug 2003, Koontz John E wrote: > By way of background, I beli[e]ve taxonomists have waffled over the > years (even the last 50 years) over whether to classify all (or most) > felidae in one large genus Felis, or in several ... The innocent > linguist, cons[u]lting reference works from a variety of sources and > times is easily caught unawares. It occurred to me that this could be misread - "innocent linguist" refers not to Heike, who seems to be a cat authority, but to the rest of us. JEK From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Thu Aug 14 15:18:40 2003 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:18:40 -0600 Subject: more onomatopoetic and mysterious cats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For what it's worth, the Wichita (Caddoan) word for the domestic cat is wi:yo:; given that this language has no word-initial [m], that has to be 'meow', it always seemed to me. The word I got for 'wild cat', whatever animal that might mean, is wi:yo:sko:ks; -s- connects nouns to other things in compounds; ko:ks is the adj. you use for naughty children, especially rebellious teenagers, or relatives who misbehave in various ways, or any kind of mildly unacceptable social behavior; it's usually glossed 'crazy', but 'wild' isn't far off. I have often wondered whether this is like the terms for 'shoe', 'house', 'chicken', etc., in that an older word has taken on a meaning for something from European culture, and the original entity is then described by a noun plus adjective combination (adj. usually being 'original' 'real', genuine' or, in this case 'wild'). Does the "meow" word lend itself to application to the bigger animals? Another hypothesis that I've entertained, though never collected any concrete evidence for, is that they had some kind of name-taboo custom not too long ago which meant you had to make up new words if the old word were part of the name of someone who died. If the original word for 'wildcat' were in someone's name and that taboo applied, "wi:yo:sko:ks" might well be a good euphemism to replace the newly forbidden term. They have enough other "descriptive" animal names to make me think this is a real possibility. Michael: they also have a word wate:ya:h, which no one can gloss precisely -- I get, puma, panther, etc., but also a description that it lives in the woods, near water, and can lure people toward it in the dark by sounding like a crying child or a crying woman. I've also had people tell me it was sort of half-cat, half-dog, solid black, with bright yellow eyes. One interpreter of it in a song text called it 'something powerful'. I have been suspecting that this is your "underwater cat", in the badly impoverished "cultural memory" of this dying culture. What do you think? David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Koontz John E wrote: > On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, CRAIG KOPRIS wrote: > > Before trying to assign a source language to cat > > terms, it might be best to rule out onomatopeia first! > > I've encountered the claim (I don't have the > > reference handy anymore) that (domestic) cat terms > > around the world are usually based on either: ... > > > 1. the sound a cat makes; e.g., English 'meow', > > Chinese 'miao' > > .... > > > 3. another call to get a cat's attention (ktktktk); > > e.g. English 'cat', 'kitten', Arabic 'q at Ta' > > > > I wouldn't be surprised if the ancient Egyptians, who > > domesticated the cat in the first place, used one of > > the onomatopeic "roots". > > Gardiner's Egyptian Grammar 3rd Ed., p. 459, gives miw, where the i has a > left opening hook over it and is apparently supposed to represent a y, > i.e., myw (missing the vowels, of course). So, you're quite right. > > I hadn't realized that forms other than "meow" were considered > onomatopoeic, and your Pashto form puts pVS forms further afield in IE as > well. > > Webster's reports that kitten has evolved from a Old French diminutive > form chaton. I gather kit is a back formation. > > JEK > From rankin at ku.edu Thu Aug 14 15:37:23 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:37:23 -0500 Subject: Just 2 minor notes on realia (was: A little more on Iroquoian ) Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Aug 2003, Koontz John E wrote: > By way of background, I beli[e]ve taxonomists have waffled over the > years (even the last 50 years) over whether to classify all (or most) > felidae in one large genus Felis, or in several ... I suppose this is, in part at least, a reflection of the shift in biological taxonomy from a phenetic (not phonetic!) basis to a cladistic one. Advances in DNA technology have made purely cladistic classification possible. This was an important aspect of the discussions surrounding the Greenberg/Amerind controversy. Greenberg's technique was unabashedly phenetic, and he said as much in his publications, praising the Linnean taxonomic procedures constantly as a model for linguists to follow. But linguists strongly favored cladistic models long before biologists did. I'm not sure many linguists ever saw these basic differences clearly. As for cats, we're stuck with folk taxonomies in any event, which is why we're having to deal with so many furry critters. The only example I know of in which English 'cat' may have been borrowed is Choctaw /katos/, but that may well be from Spanish 'gato(s)'. No term for felis cattus domesticus is reconstructible in Muskogean languages (Creek /poosi/, Choc. /katos/, etc.), but a term for 'tiger' something like */kowi/, is reconstructible AFAIK. Where's Jess when we need him? He probably has a gazillion sound symbolic cat terms. Bob From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Aug 14 18:29:22 2003 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:29:22 -0500 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: >> > A couple of questions here: Could we get an expansion of the acronyms >> BF and >> > PC for those of us who are Algonquian-challenged? Also, without >> > presuppositions about which way borrowing is supposed to have gone, are BF >> > poos, PC poosii- and Penobscot p at so (@ = schwa) reasonable reflexes of >> > Proto-Algonquian? > If asked this way: no, because the former two and the latter are two > distinct etyma. >>I think 'BF' is Blackfoot; I'm not sure what 'PC' is supposed to stand for; >>among Algonquianists, it usually stands for 'Plains Cree', > Yep. Thanks to David and Heike for answering my questions about this. Blackfoot and Plains Cree certainly are not in the right location geographically to be relevant to my hypothesis, and their /poos-/ forms are not from Proto-Algonquian *pe$iwa. That leaves us so far with Penobscot /p at so/, which is in the right place, and is a native term. Now I'm wondering what other Algonquian languages would have been represented 500 years ago along the northeast coast, especially from New England to the Gulf of St. Lawrence area. Do we have, or can we predict, the form of the *pe$iwa etymon in these languages? Also, what about their terms for hares and rabbits? Are any of these at all "puss"-like? Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Aug 14 19:29:55 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:29:55 -0600 Subject: more onomatopoetic and mysterious cats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Does the "meow" word lend itself to application to the bigger animals? It might not matter, once the term applied to a cat of any size, but I think bobcats and lynxes (Lynx spp.) do make fairly cat-like noises. I'm not sure for mountain lions (Puma). I've heard them described as "screaming," I think. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Aug 14 19:33:52 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:33:52 -0600 Subject: AOL Not Accepting Mail from List Message-ID: FYI, AOL has temporarily ceased accepting communications from the list because the University of Colorado, which hosts the list, is not filtering spam to AOL's satisfaction. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU Fri Aug 15 00:43:42 2003 From: John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:43:42 -0600 Subject: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Rory M Larson wrote: > I want to get this on the list before I get killed by a wildcat > or something. It's been gradually sinking into my consciousness, > through numerous corrections in my pronunciation by our speakers, > that they are actually making a distinction between the tenser, > full /e/ sound, as approximately in "late", and the lower or more > central /e/ sound as in "let". The last time I corresponded with > Ardis, she seemed to be coming to the same conclusion. > > Last night, Mrs. Alberta Canby gave me what seems to be a minimal > pair. It seems that in Omaha, the /he/ that means "horn" is > pronounced with the tense /e/ as in "late", while the /he/ that > means "louse" is pronounced with the more central /e/ as in "let". I haven't noticed this myself in the past, but I wouldn't attach a great deal of significance to that. LaFlesche didn't notice it, but was happy to write c-cedilla for both s and z. Dorsey does write e-breve, quite a lot, but I've always attributed this to overdifferentiation. David's e vs. E for more tense vs more lax seems reasonable to me. My first instinct would be to wonder if this was a correlate of length. What sort of intonation is there? What happens if you add an article or in compounds with the two different forms? What other forms might exhibit one or the other of the two e's? I've noticed that the e after aspirates is more lax, e.g., in tti=the [titHE]. Dorsey regularly writes this as t, perhaps indicating the same thing. Otherwise, note that hE 'louse' corresponds to Dakotan he'ya, while presumably he 'horn' might be inalienable from *ihe. I'm not sure if this is any help. If 'louse' were a contraction or reduction of *heya, I'd expect it to be the tense one. JEK From rood at spot.colorado.edu Thu Aug 14 22:51:50 2003 From: rood at spot.colorado.edu (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:51:50 -0600 Subject: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > If there is a difference here, how do we distinguish these two > forms of /e/ in NetSiouan? > > Thanks, > Rory I would advocate "E" for the lax version as being the closest a roman font can come to an epsilon. I don't think there is a difference between he 'horn' and he 'that' in Lakota, but they've dispensed with a lot of reconstructed vowel contrasts. We used to have fun with "He he he?" 'Is that a horn?' ('that'-'horn'-'question enclitic') when playing with language. The first one is always a bit louder and longer than the other two, but I'm sure that's attributable to sentence intonation. However, I'm willing to believe that Dhegiha might have some contrasts that L. doesn't. David David S. Rood 295 UCB Univ. of Colorado Boulder, CO 80305 303-492-2747 From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Aug 15 15:11:47 2003 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 10:11:47 -0500 Subject: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan? Message-ID: > Problem 1: Ken Miner found that ALL monosyllables in Winnebago (at least > for major categories like noun, verb, etc.) had long vowels in isolation. I > think that was a rule: no exceptions. If that's true throughout Siouan, > then differences should be neutralized in this environment, and contexts > with affixes should be sought. Winnebago clips the trailing vowels of a lot of words that would have two syllables in other languages, doesn't it? So would words like *s^uNke in Winnebago be something like /*s^uNk-/ in combining forms, but /*s^uNuNk/ when they stand alone? Rory From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 15 14:24:59 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 09:24:59 -0500 Subject: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan? Message-ID: > ...our speakers, that they are actually making a distinction between the tenser, full /e/ sound, as approximately in "late", and the lower or more central /e/ sound as in "let". I'm not surprised, but finding the source of the distinction may require some work. Like John, my first instinct is to attribute it to the long-neglected length distinction. We know there are clear minimal pairs for several different vowels and we know that V length is reconstructible. That may not clear up the problem however. Problem 1: Ken Miner found that ALL monosyllables in Winnebago (at least for major categories like noun, verb, etc.) had long vowels in isolation. I think that was a rule: no exceptions. If that's true throughout Siouan, then differences should be neutralized in this environment, and contexts with affixes should be sought. Problem 2: While I don't wish to alienate members of the list who may be speakers of Omaha or other Siouan languages, it is simply a fact that, as languages become moribund and their speakers use other languages, in this case English, the vast majority of the time, it is often the case that phonemic distinctions in the primary language (again English) interfere with perception of the phonological distinctions of the secondary language (here Omaha). /ey/ and /E/ are quite distinct in English and people may be carrying this distinction into their Omaha where they *perceive* it occurs even if they are pretty fluent. So a distinction that was maybe allophonic in Omaha starts to take on distinctiveness because it's phonemic in English. This probably shouldn't be producing minimal pairs by itself, but combined with a desire to differentiate homophones, it could. While it's generally been my feeling that most of the instrumental phonetic studies that have invaded phonology from phonetics in recent years are just "bean counting" and a general a waste of time from the point of view of "langue" (as opposed to "parole"), I think some studies of this sort with Siouan vowels might be revealing -- in ALL the languages we work with. We keep hearing these distinctions and keep getting our pronunciation corrected by speakers: it's high time we figured out just exactly what's what and then followed up in our phonological and grammatical studies. Dorsey did overdifferentiate on occasion, sometimes providing different spellings for apparent homophones, but until we understand the full picture, we can't say for sure where he did and where he didn't. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Aug 15 20:09:40 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 14:09:40 -0600 Subject: Experiencer Verb (Re: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Rory M Larson wrote: > I'm not familiar with the word ishkoNshkoN, and I may have > gotten it wrong. What I worked out with her, after some > negotiation, was: > > 1s: hE ama' oNnoN'shkoNshkoN > > 2s: hE ama' dhinoN'shkoNshkoN > > 3s: hE ama' noNshkoN'shkoN > > If this is right, it should be an active verb describing > the activities of the (all-too) proximate lice with respect > to a hapless patient. I took the instrumental prefix to be > noN- 'by foot', and I supposed the verb root to be > shkoN 'to move'. The reduplication of this root would > indicate the massive plurality of the lice, and the > sentence would then mean: 'The lice are running about > all over the place with respect to [the patient]'. Yeah, given the inflection it turns into a transitive verb, with lice as agent and the afflicted person as the patient 'the lice foot-move one here and there'. Oh well. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Aug 15 20:17:34 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 14:17:34 -0600 Subject: Tarifit Digression In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030815204611.00a11d80@pop3.netcologne.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Heike Bödeker wrote: > Even though it is somewhat off-topic... but I never had the opportunity to > work with such a consultant, albeit having been curious as a lynx since > long whether Berber lgs. actually have pharyngeals or epiglottals -? I'm afraid I would not be the right person to ask. What I heard was vowel lowering. You might try Zygmunt Frajzyngier at the University of Colorado, who was the professor. JEK From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Aug 14 21:57:09 2003 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:57:09 -0500 Subject: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan? Message-ID: I want to get this on the list before I get killed by a wildcat or something. It's been gradually sinking into my consciousness, through numerous corrections in my pronunciation by our speakers, that they are actually making a distinction between the tenser, full /e/ sound, as approximately in "late", and the lower or more central /e/ sound as in "let". The last time I corresponded with Ardis, she seemed to be coming to the same conclusion. Last night, Mrs. Alberta Canby gave me what seems to be a minimal pair. It seems that in Omaha, the /he/ that means "horn" is pronounced with the tense /e/ as in "late", while the /he/ that means "louse" is pronounced with the more central /e/ as in "let". I think both of these terms are pretty common throughout MVS. I'd be interested in any observations anyone could offer about their comparative phonology in whatever language they are familiar with. If there is a difference here, how do we distinguish these two forms of /e/ in NetSiouan? Thanks, Rory From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Aug 14 21:46:59 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:46:59 -0700 Subject: even MORE non-Siouan digressions about cats Message-ID: > Now I'm wondering what other Algonquian languages would have been represented > 500 years ago along the northeast coast, especially from New England to the > Gulf of St. Lawrence area. Do we have, or can we predict, the form of the > *pe$iwa etymon in these languages? Also, what about their terms for hares and > rabbits? Are any of these at all "puss"-like? Well, as long as you're ASKING... :-) I won't bore people with all the data, but the closest the 'rabbit' word comes in any of these languages to the 'cat' word is that some of these languages have reflexes of Proto-Algonquian */wa:po:swa/ 'rabbit' (like Micmac /wapus/). But that word originally meant something like 'white game animal' in Proto-Algonquian, segmented as */wa:p-/ + /-o:swa/, so I don't think it relates to the 'puss' words in any way. The 'mountain lion' etymon that pops up in the northernmost languages here is sort of interesting, tho I can't say if Gordon Day's 'much tail' etymology is really correct. best, David ********************** Micmac: pittalu 'lion' kajuwewj, miyawj, tqoqwe:j 'cat' (last specifically 'domestic cat') tqoqwej 'bobcat' (yes, a length distinction in the final-syllable vowels really is supposed to signal this meaning difference. 'j' = alveopalatal affricate, 'q' = velar fricative [x]) Maliseet-Passamaquoddy: psuwis 'cat' p at su 'bobcat' pihtal 'lion' apiq at sik@n 'lynx' (I don't know the etymology of this one) ('q' = /kw/; '@' = schwa, here substituted for LeSourd's 'o') Penobscot: p@`so 'bobcat' p@`s at wis 'bobcat kitten, domestic cat' pi'htAlo 'mountain lion' ('A' = alpha, ` = grave accent, ' = acute accent) (can't find the Penobscot 'lynx' word) Western Abenaki: bitto^lo 'cougar' (Gordon Day says = 'much tail'; 'o^' = nasal vowel) b at zo 'wildcat, bobcat, lynx' wigw at di, wikwti 'bobcat, lynx' (Gordon Day says = 'no tail') minowiz 'a cat' (French 'minou' + Abenaki diminutive) (the resemblance of /wigw at di/ to the Miami-Illinois 'lynx' word is interesting, but probably just an accident) Massachusett: , 'lion' ('long tail') 'cat' Narragansett: 'the wildcat' (probably phonemic /p at s@w/, regular from PA */pe$iwa/) Nipmuck: , 'chat' 'loup cervier' Munsee: po':$i:$ 'cat' la:we:wapo':$i:$ 'bobcat' (/la:we:wi:/ = 'wild') (don't know what the 'cougar' word is) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Aug 15 20:32:19 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 14:32:19 -0600 Subject: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan? In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164D20@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > I believe that long vowels are another environment in which there tends to > be lowering (and/or nasalization). > > Works with ancient Greek and Church Slavic where PIE e: is/was more or less > [ae] ('ash'), but reflexes of Latin e: don't behave like that. Mixed > results, I'd guess. Another lowering environment - of the point of articulation of neighboring consonant type - is adjacent to h and ? (laryngeals). If these disappear, as they often do, you get an unconditioned (or no-longer conditioned) vowel alternation. > The only thing that occurs to me here is only partly pertinent. In Quapaw > the compound $uNke+akniN 'dog+sit.upon' = 'horse' has an /ea/ sequence, and > the whole thing came out phonetically [$unkaegni], where ae is again a low > front (accented in this case) vowel. This happens with OP hoN=egoN=chHe 'early morning', literally 'when (its) like night', which is hNgchHI. There'a tendency of finaly aN to become , also reflected here. ChHe (sure sounded like i or I to me) is a diminutive version of tHe. Dorsey shows raising as opposed to lowering in piazhi 'bad', writing it pizhi (well, he writes all the sounds differently, but that's the idea). JEK From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Thu Aug 14 20:13:30 2003 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (Heike =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=F6deker?=) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:13:30 +0200 Subject: more onomatopoetic and mysterious cats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 13:29 14.08.03 -0600, Koontz John E wrote: >It might not matter, once the term applied to a cat of any size, but I >think bobcats and lynxes (Lynx spp.) do make fairly cat-like noises. I'm >not sure for mountain lions (Puma). I've heard them described as >"screaming," I think. Both can produce a variety of a sounds actually, which I for one have a hard time imagining how to mistake for a domestic cat. Alas, I'm better at imitating these than describing in words (which is not so good for email, but surely was fun working with consultants in 3D :-)). Indeed one of the puma's calls has been described as sounding like a piercing scream by a woman :-))) The voice quality of lynxes I'd describe as rougher, not at all what one would naively expect of a "small cat" (which is less useful category anyway, not to speak of that it even had been proposed to group lynxes together with "big cats", just that lynxes seem around 4000 KY old while the panthera group only appeared around 700 KY BP together with major ecological restructurings, which also lead to the formation of the Euraso-Beringian tundra steppe). All the best, Heike From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Thu Aug 14 21:33:38 2003 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (Heike =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=F6deker?=) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:33:38 +0200 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 13:29 14.08.03 -0500, Rory M Larson wrote: >Now I'm wondering what other Algonquian languages would have been >represented 500 years ago along the northeast coast, especially from New >England to the Gulf of St. Lawrence area. The New England lgs. of older classifications (Micmac, Malecite-Passamoquoddy, "Etchemin", Eastern Abenaki incl. Penobscot, Western Abenaki, Loup A incl. Nipmuck, Loup B, Massachusett, Narraganset-Natick, Mohegan-Peqout-Montauk, Quiripi-Unquachog). To the current classification as Eastern Alg., btw, also the lgs. spoken South of Long Island via Virginia to Carolina are added (Eastern Long Island, Mahican, Munsee-Delaware, Unami-Delaware, Nanticoke, Powhatan, Carolina). >Do we have, or can we predict, the form of the *pe$iwa etymon in these >languages? The only item I could check at home was Malecite p at so "bobcat" (Szabó, Indianisches Wörterbuch: Malecite-Deutsch-Englisch, Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz 1981, p. 176), which is like the Penobscot reflex. Btw, in the same dictionary (p. 188) I find psowis, pl. psowiis at k "cat" — I assume pso- = p at so-, but what is the remainder? >Also, what about their terms for hares and rabbits? Are any of these at >all "puss"-like? Ah... there's 3 etyma PCA *me?0aaposwa "rabbit" (Hewson #1845, incl. *-aaposw "quadruped", Hewson p. 241), PCA *me$weew- "rabbit" (Hewson #1887), PCA *waaposwa "rabbit" (Hewson #3474 incl. *-osw "quadruped", Hewson p. 248; same with *waaposw "white animal" Hewson #3473 with reflexes given Menomini waaposoohsEh "little rabbit" and Ojibwa waapooson? "rabbit"!!), two of which contain a, well, "puss"-like sequence, but actually these basically are formed from the "quadruped" medial, either with w- which is a merely formal initial (though like accretive nasals of pronominal origin, and functioning like the formal bases in Southern Wakashan, so nothing exotic about this), or with *me?0- "big" (as can be easily parsed from *me?0-aapeew-a "giant = big person", *me?0-eki0-wa "be big (animatum intransitivum) = big size"; Hewson, #1844, #1848). All the best, Heike From John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU Fri Aug 15 16:56:41 2003 From: John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 10:56:41 -0600 Subject: Experiencer Verb (Re: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Rory M Larson wrote: > The "louse" term was originally volunteered with an article: > > HE' ama' oNnoN'shkoNshkoN > > which she translated as: > > The bugs [which she later corrected to "head lice"] > are making my head itch. This is a beautiful example of an experiencer verb - inflects like a stative (stem ishkoNshkoN, apparently?) - but takes two arguments - the louse/lice and the person suffering them. I'd guess the i- governs he=ama here. On a phonetic note, you had ama' with final accent? Also, I'm assuming oNnoNshkoNshkoN represents oNthoNshkoNshkoN < oN + ishkoNshkoN, but it might be that noN- represents an instrumental, though I'd expect theoretically unnasalized na- 'spontaneous action' rather than noN- 'by foot'. This brings back interesting memories - I remember when head lice ran through my daughters' elementary school and we were all using the shampoo and combing with the special combs and keeping toys in bags and what not for weeks. From John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU Fri Aug 15 17:38:01 2003 From: John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:38:01 -0600 Subject: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Rory M Larson wrote: > Length may be a factor (see below). I think I've been hearing /E/ in > various intonational positions. The "louse" term was originally > volunteered with an article: > > HE' ama' oNnoN'shkoNshkoN > ["head lice"] are making my head itch. > > > What other forms might exhibit one or the other of the two e's? > > Well, the positionals /tHE/ and /kHE/, as you note below. I've also > got one of my techno-terms with a definite /E/ sound on the first > syllable. This one does not follow an aspiration. > > nE'xEtti > ... Let's see ... The environments in which vowels tend to lower (perceived as laxness by English speakers) are (thinking of Eskimo and Afro-Asiatic) - finally and next to consonants at certain articulation points, like next to uvulars. So Greenlandic qimmik 'dog' (hope I have this right!) sounds like qemmik. And I seem to recall that the standard orthography for Greenlandic writes e and o for final i and u. (I hope Willem will correct this, if I am off track!) In Arabic and Berber, aiu tend to sound like iu except next to pharyngeals where they sound like aeo. So when I was writing my final report for field methods (with Tarifit Berber) and I discovered I had written "Fatima" /fadhma/, not /fdhma/ I suspected I had misheard /fama/ and, sure enough, Arabic had /fat.ima/. (I hope Bruce will correct this, though I think he's wandering the Plains of North America at the moment.) I think that the "low next to uvular/pharyngeal" phenomenon is repeated in the Pacific Northwest languages, and it is also essentially comparable to the basis of "tongue-root retraction vowel harmony" systems as exhibited in West Africa, Chukchee, Nez Perce, etc. I believe that long vowels are another environment in which there tends to be lowering (and/or nasalization). Anyway, E in nexe (neghe?) might well be explained by x or gh. In he vs. hE it might be a matter of length, though the details are not clear to me. It is true that Winnebago lengthens all monosyllables, and that some of these (most, actually) revert to short when additional syllables are added, as in compounds. I suspect something similar might happen in OP, and that adding an enclitic like an article might well be a "shortening" environment. > Is it possible that the Dakotan form is a compound of *hE + *a, where > *a is some classifier like the /ama'/ used by our speaker? If so, the > /y/ would be epenthetic, but could still cause the preceding /E/ to > shift to /e/. That's pretty much what I've been arguing, i.e., that the -a is essentially a partical forming independent noun stems (an absolute marker, as they say), comparable to the -a added to s^uNka, and inducing the epenthetic y after the e of he: he + a => heya. I also agree that the initial a of OP akha and ama might well have the same historical origin as this absolute marker -a exhibited in Dakotan. I think the main problem with the absolute marker hypothesis in Dakotan is that Dakotanists are used to thinking of -a in CVC nouns as epenthetic, given the sainted memories of Boas and Deloria, who proposed that analysis, and the "non-epenthetic" cases (-ya) are not very numerous at present (since 1850 or so), so it's easy to treat them as an unconnected oddity of four or five stems. Also, regarding -a as a sort of enclitic absolute marker requires one to deal with -e' in similar terms, and a lot of analyses of Dakotan accent would have to be redone somewhat. The related inserted -a- in forms like thiyata is also uncommon and easily regarded as an oddity of the postpositional system which is already an array of oddities. In short, you don't get much mileage out of this absolute marker analysis in Dakotan and you have to rethink some "solved problems." From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Aug 15 03:51:31 2003 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:51:31 -0500 Subject: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan? Message-ID: > My first instinct would be to wonder if this was a correlate of length. > What sort of intonation is there? What happens if you add an article or > in compounds with the two different forms? Length may be a factor (see below). I think I've been hearing /E/ in various intonational positions. The "louse" term was originally volunteered with an article: HE' ama' oNnoN'shkoNshkoN which she translated as: The bugs [which she later corrected to "head lice"] are making my head itch. This seems to be something one says when one goes to scratch an itch on one's noNshki. > What other forms might exhibit one or the other of the two e's? Well, the positionals /tHE/ and /kHE/, as you note below. I've also got one of my techno-terms with a definite /E/ sound on the first syllable. This one does not follow an aspiration. nE'xEtti This is a type of frying pan or skillet. The word seems to be a compound of "pot" and "house". When the word for "pot", now "bucket", is used by itself, however, the sound and intonation seem to change. In /nE'xEtti/, the first vowel is a clear, stressed, brief /E/, as in the closed syllable "neck". The second vowel is unstressed, perhaps a bit schwa; I'm not sure what it's supposed to be, but it seems to inherit the preceding /E/ sound. Without the following /tti/, the first syllable seems to be lengthened, turned into an open syllable, intonated more complexly, and possibly made more tense, at least for part of its sequence. It might be something like about halfway between /nEE'x@/ and /nee'x@/, or perhaps fully /nee'x@/, where @ is schwa, and where the elongated first syllable is rising in both pitch and stress. I don't know if this makes sense, but that seems to be what I'm hearing. > I've noticed that the e after aspirates is more lax, e.g., in tti=the > [titHE]. Dorsey regularly writes this as t, perhaps > indicating the same thing. > Otherwise, note that hE 'louse' corresponds to Dakotan he'ya, while > presumably he 'horn' might be inalienable from *ihe. I'm not sure if this > is any help. If 'louse' were a contraction or reduction of *heya, I'd > expect it to be the tense one. Is it possible that the Dakotan form is a compound of *hE + *a, where *a is some classifier like the /ama'/ used by our speaker? If so, the /y/ would be epenthetic, but could still cause the preceding /E/ to shift to /e/. Anyway, thanks for the astute advice. I'll try to collect more examples and play with environments. Rory From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Fri Aug 15 18:16:55 2003 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:16:55 -0700 Subject: Speech Analyzer Message-ID: John undervalues SIL's Speech Analyzer, which is actually a very sophisticated program, recently in an updated version. Among other things, it does create spectrograms. Wally > For what it's worth - the SIL people distribute some software - free I > think - which works with standard sound cards to do things like pitch > contours and at least some other things. Maybe not sonograms. So I think > that as long as you have a microphone and a laptop with a standard sound > card you can do at least rudimentary analysis of this sort in the field > today. You need some disk space for the sound files. From John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU Fri Aug 15 17:41:54 2003 From: John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:41:54 -0600 Subject: Instrumental Studies (RE: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan?) In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164D1D@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > ..., I think some studies of this sort with Siouan vowels might be > revealing -- in ALL the languages we work with. We keep hearing these > distinctions and keep getting our pronunciation corrected by speakers: > it's high time we figured out just exactly what's what and then > followed up in our phonological and grammatical studies. For what it's worth - the SIL people distribute some software - free I think - which works with standard sound cards to do things like pitch contours and at least some other things. Maybe not sonograms. So I think that as long as you have a microphone and a laptop with a standard sound card you can do at least rudimentary analysis of this sort in the field today. You need some disk space for the sound files. JEK From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 15 18:34:00 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 13:34:00 -0500 Subject: Speech Analyzer Message-ID: I somehow missed getting the posting on which Wally's comment is based -- don't know why. But if this program is either free or reasonably inexpensive, Rory could do some work "on the spot" with what his speakers are producing. Spectrograms could certainly allow quantity measurements. If the software doesn't allow for making vowel plots, the fellow who introduced William Labov in East Lansing last week mentioned that he (Labov) had developed the program called "Plotnik" that makes such info visible. Oops, my email program just announced receiving John's posting AFTER Wally's reply to it. Go figure. Bob > John undervalues SIL's Speech Analyzer, which is actually a very sophisticated program, recently in an updated version. Among other things, it does create spectrograms. Wally > For what it's worth - the SIL people distribute some software - free I > think - which works with standard sound cards to do things like pitch > contours and at least some other things. Maybe not sonograms. So I think > that as long as you have a microphone and a laptop with a standard sound > card you can do at least rudimentary analysis of this sort in the field > today. You need some disk space for the sound files. From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 15 18:21:50 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 13:21:50 -0500 Subject: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan? Message-ID: > Problem 1: Ken Miner found that ALL monosyllables in Winnebago (at least > for major categories like noun, verb, etc.) had long vowels in isolation. I > think that was a rule: no exceptions. If that's true throughout Siouan, > then differences should be neutralized in this environment, and contexts > with affixes should be sought. Winnebago clips the trailing vowels of a lot of words that would have two syllables in other languages, doesn't it? So would words like *s^uNke in Winnebago be something like /*s^uNk-/ in combining forms, but /*s^uNuNk/ when they stand alone? The Ho CaNk's clip final, unaccented -e. But in order to have an unaccented final -e, WI would have to have had an organic long vowel in the first syllable of a 2 syll. word already, I think. So I can't remember if that particular V alternates or not. You'd need to consult Miner's IJAL paper(s) or the nice survey of the controversy in Bruce Hays' metrical phonology book. But, yes, I think your characterization of the alternation is basically correct. Whether there would be a difference in vowel quality or quantity in the noun with /he/ as opposed to /he-ama/, I couldn't begin to guess, but in WI adding an affix could change things. Interesting questions that deserve full treatment in all Siouan languages! More interesting, I must say, than cats. :-) Bob From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Aug 15 17:33:15 2003 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 12:33:15 -0500 Subject: Experiencer Verb (Re: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan?) Message-ID: > This is a beautiful example of an experiencer verb - inflects like a > stative (stem ishkoNshkoN, apparently?) - but takes two arguments - the > louse/lice and the person suffering them. I'd guess the i- governs he=ama > here. > On a phonetic note, you had ama' with final accent? Yes. I have the feeling that it was short, clear, and somewhat lax, perhaps a bit "uh"-like. At first I was trying to parse the whole string /hE'ama`/ as one word (where ' represents primary accent and ` represents a secondary accent). > Also, I'm assuming oNnoNshkoNshkoN represents oNthoNshkoNshkoN < oN + > ishkoNshkoN, but it might be that noN- represents an instrumental, though > I'd expect theoretically unnasalized na- 'spontaneous action' rather than > noN- 'by foot'. I'm not familiar with the word ishkoNshkoN, and I may have gotten it wrong. What I worked out with her, after some negotiation, was: 1s: hE ama' oNnoN'shkoNshkoN 2s: hE ama' dhinoN'shkoNshkoN 3s: hE ama' noNshkoN'shkoN If this is right, it should be an active verb describing the activities of the (all-too) proximate lice with respect to a hapless patient. I took the instrumental prefix to be noN- 'by foot', and I supposed the verb root to be shkoN 'to move'. The reduplication of this root would indicate the massive plurality of the lice, and the sentence would then mean: 'The lice are running about all over the place with respect to [the patient]'. Rory From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Fri Aug 15 18:45:35 2003 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (Heike =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=F6deker?=) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:45:35 +0200 Subject: even MORE non-Siouan digressions about cats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 14:46 14.08.03 -0700, David Costa wrote: >Maliseet-Passamaquoddy: > >psuwis 'cat' >p at su 'bobcat' >pihtal 'lion' Szabó (p. 177) gives piihtal, pl. piihtal at wok, which seems to contain the same initial as piihtaakw at et II, piihtakwso AI (p.176f) "it / s/he is long", so I guess this is the usual descriptive term for *mountain* lion. >apiq at sik@n 'lynx' (I don't know the etymology of this one) Szabó (p. 37), alas, doesn't have this lemma, but the initial seems the same as in apikwseehs, pl. apikwseehsowok "rat" — any ideas about this one maybe? All the best, Heike From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Fri Aug 15 18:56:31 2003 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (Heike =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=F6deker?=) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:56:31 +0200 Subject: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:38 15.08.03 -0600, Koontz John E wrote: >I think that the "low next to uvular/pharyngeal" phenomenon is repeated in >the Pacific Northwest languages, In Southern Wakashan /i/ is lowered quite extremely to [E] because actually these are epiglottals aka adyteals as also occuring e.g. in Cushitic or Eastern Caucasian lgs., not pharyngeals as in Arabic. Even though it is somewhat off-topic... but I never had the opportunity to work with such a consultant, albeit having been curious as a lynx since long whether Berber lgs. actually have pharyngeals or epiglottals -? >and it is also essentially comparable to the basis of "tongue-root >retraction vowel harmony" systems as exhibited >in West Africa, Chukchee, Nez Perce, etc. Yep. >I believe that long vowels are another environment in which there tends to >be lowering (and/or nasalization). But also nasalization the other way round to lowering, just thinking of French or Cayuga... All the best, Heike From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 15 18:46:47 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 13:46:47 -0500 Subject: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan? Message-ID: > I believe that long vowels are another environment in which there tends to be lowering (and/or nasalization). Works with ancient Greek and Church Slavic where PIE e: is/was more or less [ae] ('ash'), but reflexes of Latin e: don't behave like that. Mixed results, I'd guess. > Is it possible that the Dakotan form is a compound of *hE + *a, where > *a is some classifier like the /ama'/ used by our speaker? If so, the > /y/ would be epenthetic, but could still cause the preceding /E/ to > shift to /e/. The only thing that occurs to me here is only partly pertinent. In Quapaw the compound $uNke+akniN 'dog+sit.upon' = 'horse' has an /ea/ sequence, and the whole thing came out phonetically [$unkaegni], where ae is again a low front (accented in this case) vowel. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Aug 16 05:33:14 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:33:14 -0600 Subject: Cleft/Focus Example Message-ID: I noticed this great example of an "e-cleft" in Omaha-Ponca this evening. It's one I missed in preparing my paper for the Siouan and Caddoan Conference because this one doesn't show the "e" as enclitic to the noun as recorded in the texts. I include the context, because it's needed to show the focus. The over all context involves a story in which the hero, guesting with four Thunder-beings, is successively offered various inedible things to eat, each of which the Thunder-beings call by various innocent names. --- Dorsey 1890:181.11-12 "WattaN'ze=skidhe bdhaNze=xc^i u'wagihaN=i=ga!" a=bi=ama. corn sweet very small-(grained?) cook for them he1 said He' (=?)e wak[h?]e akh=ama. lice that he1 was meaning GaN, "E'gaN aNwaNdhatha=b=az^i," a=bi=ama And so like that we do not eat it he2 said --- I think that "Lice were what he meant." is a very suitable translation for the second sentence in this context, and that a focussing cleft is what adding the e here produces. (Oo, a cleft of my own!) The subject here is implicit in the verb (but governs the imperfect auxiliary akha), and this is an object cleft. The sentence certainly doesn't mean "He meant those (particular, previously mentioned) lice." In fact, the lice haven't been mentioned previously, though one might argue that they could perhaps be assumed by the hearers on the strength of corpses of men previously mentioned. I recall an article on Eskimo antipassives in which it was pointed out that rocks were always definite, even if not previously mentioned, because if there was one thing you could assume in an arctic landscape, it was rocks. Similarly, humans may imply lice, but I don't think this is what is going on here! It's also useful to note the verb u'wagihaN=i=ga 'cook it for them!' in the first sentence. The underlying verb is uhaN' 'to cook'. The dative is ugi'haN. Because the object is plural the u- prefix is accented, i.e., derived from *wo < wa-o'-, where historical wa- is the actual plural object prefix. But, various u-verbs with animate objects (dative object in this case) add wa- 'them' anyway, pleonastically, as it were. With the a- and i- locatives wa- is regularly added before the locative (producing wa'- and we'-), but with this locative it follows. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Aug 16 06:02:09 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:02:09 -0600 Subject: Horns and Lice Message-ID: Following up on Rory's "two e's" conundrum, I looked to see if Dorsey happened to write one of the other of these two forms - he 'horn' and hE (?) 'louse', as Rory has suggested - with e-breve. I did discovered he'=khe(breve) and he'=the(breve), both 'the horn' (at various angles), but both 'horn', but both 'horn' and 'louse/lice' are always just he'. However, for what it is worth, I did notice that in compounds he 'horn' is fairly consistantly not accented when initial, or, if accented, is immediately followed by an accented first syllable in the next element, even though this produces two accented syllables in a row with the second being an element not normally accented (like the first syllable of a verb with an inner instrumental). Dorsey has a pronounced tendency to regularize the form of a word, and he may simply have been in the habit of writing 'horn' as he'. So, we have he=ga'zaza 'Split Horns', he=ba'zab=az^i 'Unsplintered Horns', he'=ga'zaza=xti 'Horns Very Full of Snags (Tines?)', he'=z^aN[']kka=ttaN'ga 'Big Forked (= Juvenile) Horns', he=saN'nide 'Horn on One Side', he=gha'p[p]a 'Scabby Horns'. These are all personal names. Half the time 'horn' is clearly 'antler', but this is a standard pattern in Omaha-Ponca where he' means 'horn, antler', though Dorsey always translates it 'horn'. In he'=z^aN[']kka=ttaN'ga, I assume from the location of accent in ttaN'ga that z^aNkka is accented z^aN'kka. In that case, then, and in he'=ga'zaza=xti we have two successive accented syllables, and probably the first accent is spurious. Dorsey does also list he'=bac^[c^?]age 'Blunt Horns' and he'=waNz^i'dha 'One Horn'. I think the latter is an adaptation of Dakota (he)waNz^i'la 'one (horn)'. WaNz^i'dha is certainly unprecedented in Omaha-Ponca, as far as I know. I don't know how that compound would be stressed in Dakota. The implication of the OP form is he'=waz^i'dha, even though the first element isn't actually written with accent. One possible implication of this accentual pattern in compounds with he' 'horn' is that he' 'horn' is short, at least in compounds, e.g., he=ga'zaza as opposed to *hee'=gaza'za, though, of course, my usual assumption has been that accent falls on the first element in a compound, even if that element happens to be monosyllabic. The he' 'horn' examples above would be largely problematic for me under that assumption. I don't have any compounds with he' 'louse/lice' from Dorsey. Swetland's UmoNhoN-iye of Elizabeth Stabler does list he'=saN 'gnits, gnats', i.e., nits, the young or eggs of lice, suggesting maybe hee'=saN. It would be nice to have some further examples transcribed by a consistant, modern source. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From arem8 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 16 13:58:20 2003 From: arem8 at hotmail.com (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:58:20 -0400 Subject: Possible Siouan origin? Message-ID: Listeros, In the Illinois-French dictionary there is a curious entry: , which is glossed "serpent". This term's appearance in this dictionary seems to be the only time it is attested in Miami-Illinois and there appear to be no cognates in other Algonquian languages that mean "snake". Now, there is Proto-Algonquian */sa:kima:wa/ 'chief' (Aubin #1936; also in Hewson #2914), and that term, according to what Dave Costa told me this week, does have reflexes in Eastern Algonquian and perhaps in old Fox. Although Illinois and PA */sa:kima:wa/ are on the surface quite similar, the discrepancy in their glosses is troubling. One might be led to believe that there was an old Jesuit in the Illinois Country who simply made a mistake when he recorded the Illinois term. However, there are two additional terms related to the entry that show that this was not a error: 1) glossed "medecine (sic) c[on]tre les morsures" (medicine for bites), with diaresis over the <-i->; 2) glossed "qui pense (sic) les mordus". The latter term is a participle, and the French translation is "(he/she) who bandages the bites ("pense" for "panse," meaning "bandages"). I was wondering if, despite the apparent relationship between and PA */sa:kima:wa/, there was a chance the Illinois term was a borrowing from Siouan. Is there anything like in Siouan meaning "snake"? wiipaci, Michael McCafferty _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From rankin at ku.edu Sat Aug 16 14:22:20 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:22:20 -0500 Subject: Possible Siouan origin? Message-ID: Nothing similar in Siouan that I can think of, although the term in Siouan apparently undergoes taboo replacement fairly easily (Dhegiha, Chiwere/Winnebago, Ohio Valley Siouan at least). In Dhegiha it's *wes?a (perhaps related to 'drip', perhaps just opaque); in Chiwere it's *wakhaN, the 'sacred' word, and in OVS it's *moNkhaN 'medicine' and roughly the nasalized equivalent of wakhaN. I wrote a bit about these in the paper I did for the Siebert Festschrift. So no joy apparently. . . . Bob >In the Illinois-French dictionary there is a curious entry: , which is glossed "serpent". This term's appearance in this dictionary seems to be the only time it is attested in Miami-Illinois and there appear to be no cognates in other Algonquian languages that mean "snake". Now, there is Proto-Algonquian */sa:kima:wa/ 'chief' (Aubin #1936; also in Hewson #2914), and that term, according to what Dave Costa told me this week, does have reflexes in Eastern Algonquian and perhaps in old Fox. Although Illinois and PA */sa:kima:wa/ are on the surface quite similar, the discrepancy in their glosses is troubling. One might be led to believe that there was an old Jesuit in the Illinois Country who simply made a mistake when he recorded the Illinois term. However, there are two additional terms related to the entry that show that this was not a error: 1) glossed "medecine (sic) c[on]tre les morsures" (medicine for bites), with diaresis over the <-i->; 2) glossed "qui pense (sic) les mordus". The latter term is a participle, and the French translation is "(he/she) who bandages the bites ("pense" for "panse," meaning "bandages"). I was wondering if, despite the apparent relationship between and PA */sa:kima:wa/, there was a chance the Illinois term was a borrowing from Siouan. Is there anything like in Siouan meaning "snake"? wiipaci, Michael McCafferty _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 17 20:55:04 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 14:55:04 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: <78.45438e77.2c68fdae@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 BARudes at aol.com wrote: > MI wiikwee- > > PSI *-truN (one might have plumped for *-kwuN, too) > PreDa *ikwuN (i.e., m = w/__VN) > Te igmu' > Sa inmu' > PreIO *wiitwaN ??? > IO udwaN' (+ yiNGe 'little') (u- ???) > Wi wiic^aN'wa(siNiNc^serec^) 'cougar' (long-tailed cat) > PreWi *wii'twaN > PreDh *i(N)kruN-ka (*-ka is a noun former) > OP iNgdhaN'(ga) > Ks iluN (l < *kr) > Os iluN'ka (l < *kr) > Bi *tmoc^-ka (tmo suggests *twuN) > Tu *talus-ka yiNki (attested form regularized as "taluskik") > > Yuchi atyuNne 'wildcat' > Mohawk atiiru > > A. I assume you are suggesting that the Miami form is a loan from the > PreDakotan reconstruction, since it is the only form in your set that > bears any resemblance to the Miami form. However, as you point out, > the Miami and the PreDakotan forms share only the consonant cluster. No, from a subsequent Siouan form something like the Dakotan igmuN (*ikwuN) or PreWiCh *wiitwaN, which could as well have been *(w)itwuN and *wiikwaN, given the difficulties the cluster presents, and given the not fully understood tendencies of Siouan languages to add reflexes of *wa- or *wV- to various forms. I don't insist that the source be one of the attested Siouan languages. There is some reason to believe that the linguistic situation of the historical period is not fully representative of the situation before contact. If a set shows the kind of variability across languages that this one shows, we may or may not want to consider that additional variation within the attested range might have occurred in the past. Even without allowing for additional linguistic forms, we have to consider that we have a situation in which we do not know at what point PreDa *itwuN became *ikwun, or, alternatively, PreWiCh *wiikwaN became *wiitwaN. > B. You are proposing to explain the initial w- in the Miami form from > a PreDakotan initial *w- from one or another of several sources, but > the *w- is not even reconstructable for the PreDakotan form. As far as initial w, we don't know whether PreWiCh added *w(V)- (and why), or wether the other dialects lost it. Actually, given Rankins evidence for *wi- as a prefix on animal names, we might suspect the latter. As far as whether the medial cluster exhibits m or w, the question is essentially moot in a Siouan context, as there is often no contrast, though the details vary with the language. Dakotan does do a better job of contrasting w and m than most Siouan languages. Though there is not much variability in recording pral or nasal variants of the resonants in Mississippi Valley languages, there has been in the past with Crow and Hidatsa, and plainly something like this in the past in Dakotan explains why the Santee, Yankton-Yanktonais, and Teton dalects have b and d or l where the Assiniboine and Stoney dialects have m and n. These are the "oral context" pronunciations. All of the dialects mentioned have m and n in nasal contexts. Of course, Santee was recorded in the 1800s with md where I gather more recently speakers have bd. In short, I'm prepared to believe that however it is written now, a labial resonant in gm might be heard as w or perceived as equivalent to that by a bilingual speaker. The cluster in the Siouan forms remains a very interesting question. Santee inmuN actually suggests tw, if we recognize that nm is analogous to mn, where mn is the well-attested nasal equivalent of oral md ~ bd (to use the Santee forms), also very well attested. This is because nm looks like it might be the nasal form of *dw, though I don't know of any examples of *dw. Siouanists take it as an article of faith that stop + resonant clusters do not begin with dentals, though 'cat' and 'squash' put the cluster *tw on the table for embarassed consideration. For that matter, clusters ending in labial resonants are unusual, though they do occur in Dakotan and in Winnebago and Iowau-Otoe. They do not occur in Dheigha. Dhegiha's *kr in 'cat' is most likely an attempt to convert something awkward like *tr or *tw or *kw into something manageable like *kr. The reverse possiblity, that Dakotan and Winnebago-Chiwere have elected independently to change *kr into vanishingly rare *kw and *tw respectively seems unlikely. Whether Santee nasalized *dw argues for *t in Proto-Dakotan is unclear. It happens that *t and *k are interchangeable in the reflexes of the *tp and *kp clusters. Teton has kp for both, while Santee has tp for both. So *kp remains kp in Teton, but becomes tp in Santee, cf. Te kpaza, Santee tpaza 'dark', OP ppaze 'evening', Wi (ho)kawas 'be dark, darkness'. On the other hand *tp becomes kp in Teton, but remains tp in Santee, cf. Te nakpa', Santee natpa', OP nitta' (Ks naNtta'), Wi naNaNc^'awa '(external) ear'. Given this situation PreDa *dw and *gw (*tw and *kw) might well also have neutralized, if there are/were enough examples to speak in these terms! The remaining issue here is the comparison of uN or aN with ee. As I think I asked, isn't there something funny about the distribution of *ee in Algonquian - like first syllables only? If ee is unusual in this context, that is in itself an interesting matter. However, it would be more useful if there were an example agreed to be a loan that showed what happened to aN or uN. I don't actually have one in mind. We don't know much about loans into or out of SIouan. The best parallel I can think of is the Siouan 'bow' term, where forms like OP maN'de and Wi maNaNc^gu' are considered to derive from an Algonquian form like *me?tekw-. > C. You are proposing that Proto-Siouan *-truN ' panther, mountain > lion' is cognate with or in some other way related to Proto-Iroquoian > *ti:l-i/oN 'skunk' (see cognates in previous email), despite the > difference in meanings and the problem of where the vowel separating > the consonants came from in Iroquoian or went to in Siouan. I've discussed the way in which terms for 'cat' (and this is more like the 'bobcat' term than the 'mountain lion' term, without modification) get used more widely than with strict reference to the Linnaean concept of the Felidae. Obviously this would not be a recent loan, and there is room for various specializations to have occurred at either end. Whether the vowel of the first syllable comes in Iroquoian or goes in Siouan I couldn't say. I was struck by the resemblance, but I'm not prepared to argue any specific scenario. > D. You are proposing that Proto-Siouan *-truN 'panther, mountain lion' > is cognate with a purposed Yuchi form atyuNne 'wildcat'. No such form > exists! ... Bill Ballard's English-Yuchi lexicon shows that the Yuchi > word for 'wildcat' is $athy at N ($ = s hachek, @N = nasal open o). He > also cites a form from Gunther Wagner, cat' an' e ($at?ane) which is > not the same word. $athy at N also means 'raccoon'. You're right. I mistranscribed what looks to me in the Comparative Siouan Archive file (seen as extended-ASCII, since it's very difficult for me to display the alternative DOS screen font we used anymore) like atyvne 'wildcat'. I'm not even marginally familiar with Yuchi. ====== For the rest, I don't mind speculation on this list, though I hope to try to distinguish speculation from more rigorous analysis more explcitly. This is not a refereed journal. JEK From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Mon Aug 18 17:01:04 2003 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:01:04 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: Hey, all -- I'm finally back home in Nebraska from the Michigan meeting (just in time to catch the tail end of the Omaha tribal powwow in Macy, on a scorching hot day) and before I get sidetracked by too many other things I want to check in with everybody about next year's conference. (1) The conference will be in Wayne, Nebraska, hosted by Wayne State College. I talked to my dean and he is enthusiastic about supporting/hosting us, so it's definitely a go. (2) DATE -- Let's aim for early summer -- June or possibly even late May. Say, the weekend of May 29, June 5, 12, 19, 26, or July 3?? Does anyone know of conflicts or have preferences among these dates? I know it's way early, but summer has a tendency to get filled up, so I'd like to set a date soon ... (3) Just to get it in writing... the 2005 meeting is tentatively set for Oklahoma, with Bob &/or Kathy hosting, no? Catherine From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon Aug 18 17:06:01 2003 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:06:01 -0600 Subject: Siouan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Catherine, Thanks for getting on top of this so quickly. May I suggest that you avoid both Memorial Day weekend (traffic) and Father's Day (family stuff)? Otherwise I have no preference. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > > Hey, all -- I'm finally back home in Nebraska from the Michigan meeting > (just in time to catch the tail end of the Omaha tribal powwow in Macy, on > a scorching hot day) and before I get sidetracked by too many other things > I want to check in with everybody about next year's conference. > > (1) The conference will be in Wayne, Nebraska, hosted by Wayne State > College. I talked to my dean and he is enthusiastic about > supporting/hosting us, so it's definitely a go. > > (2) DATE -- Let's aim for early summer -- June or possibly even late May. > Say, the weekend of May 29, June 5, 12, 19, 26, or July 3?? Does anyone > know of conflicts or have preferences among these dates? I know it's way > early, but summer has a tendency to get filled up, so I'd like to set a > date soon ... > > (3) Just to get it in writing... the 2005 meeting is tentatively set for > Oklahoma, with Bob &/or Kathy hosting, no? > > Catherine > > From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Mon Aug 18 17:09:39 2003 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:09:39 -0500 Subject: Cleft/Focus Example Message-ID: This IS a great example! Sure looks like a cleft to me. And it's especially nice to have a sentence with the cleft/focus -e after a noun -- I think the ones in your paper were just about all on demonstratives or verbs/clauses. I wonder what the syntax of this looks like... can -e attach to any type of constituent? Does it make an adjoined phrase of some kind? Catherine Koontz John E o.edu> cc: Sent by: Subject: Cleft/Focus Example owner-siouan at lists.c olorado.edu 08/16/03 12:33 AM Please respond to siouan I noticed this great example of an "e-cleft" in Omaha-Ponca this evening. It's one I missed in preparing my paper for the Siouan and Caddoan Conference because this one doesn't show the "e" as enclitic to the noun as recorded in the texts. I include the context, because it's needed to show the focus. The over all context involves a story in which the hero, guesting with four Thunder-beings, is successively offered various inedible things to eat, each of which the Thunder-beings call by various innocent names. --- Dorsey 1890:181.11-12 "WattaN'ze=skidhe bdhaNze=xc^i u'wagihaN=i=ga!" a=bi=ama. corn sweet very small-(grained?) cook for them he1 said He' (=?)e wak[h?]e akh=ama. lice that he1 was meaning GaN, "E'gaN aNwaNdhatha=b=az^i," a=bi=ama And so like that we do not eat it he2 said --- I think that "Lice were what he meant." is a very suitable translation for the second sentence in this context, and that a focussing cleft is what adding the e here produces. (Oo, a cleft of my own!) The subject here is implicit in the verb (but governs the imperfect auxiliary akha), and this is an object cleft. The sentence certainly doesn't mean "He meant those (particular, previously mentioned) lice." In fact, the lice haven't been mentioned previously, though one might argue that they could perhaps be assumed by the hearers on the strength of corpses of men previously mentioned. I recall an article on Eskimo antipassives in which it was pointed out that rocks were always definite, even if not previously mentioned, because if there was one thing you could assume in an arctic landscape, it was rocks. Similarly, humans may imply lice, but I don't think this is what is going on here! It's also useful to note the verb u'wagihaN=i=ga 'cook it for them!' in the first sentence. The underlying verb is uhaN' 'to cook'. The dative is ugi'haN. Because the object is plural the u- prefix is accented, i.e., derived from *wo < wa-o'-, where historical wa- is the actual plural object prefix. But, various u-verbs with animate objects (dative object in this case) add wa- 'them' anyway, pleonastically, as it were. With the a- and i- locatives wa- is regularly added before the locative (producing wa'- and we'-), but with this locative it follows. JEK From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Mon Aug 18 17:15:34 2003 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:15:34 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: Ah! I knew someone would have a better handle on the calendar than me. Memorial Day eliminates May 29, and Father's day knocks out what? June 12? or 19? Catherine, Thanks for getting on top of this so quickly. May I suggest that you avoid both Memorial Day weekend (traffic) and Father's Day (family stuff)? Otherwise I have no preference. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > > Hey, all -- I'm finally back home in Nebraska from the Michigan meeting > (just in time to catch the tail end of the Omaha tribal powwow in Macy, on > a scorching hot day) and before I get sidetracked by too many other things > I want to check in with everybody about next year's conference. > > (1) The conference will be in Wayne, Nebraska, hosted by Wayne State > College. I talked to my dean and he is enthusiastic about > supporting/hosting us, so it's definitely a go. > > (2) DATE -- Let's aim for early summer -- June or possibly even late May. > Say, the weekend of May 29, June 5, 12, 19, 26, or July 3?? Does anyone > know of conflicts or have preferences among these dates? I know it's way > early, but summer has a tendency to get filled up, so I'd like to set a > date soon ... > > (3) Just to get it in writing... the 2005 meeting is tentatively set for > Oklahoma, with Bob &/or Kathy hosting, no? > > Catherine > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 18 17:52:32 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:52:32 -0600 Subject: Siouan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > Ah! I knew someone would have a better handle on the calendar than me. > Memorial Day eliminates May 29, and Father's day knocks out what? June 12? > or 19? Apparently, the third Sunday in June, or June 20th. And, for those who want to know, Mother's Day, the second Sunday in May, or May 9th. JEK From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon Aug 18 17:53:17 2003 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:53:17 -0600 Subject: Siouan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I would guess the 19th, but I don't have a 2004 calendar with that kind of info here in the office. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > > Ah! I knew someone would have a better handle on the calendar than me. > Memorial Day eliminates May 29, and Father's day knocks out what? June 12? > or 19? > > > > Catherine, > Thanks for getting on top of this so quickly. May I suggest > that > you avoid both Memorial Day weekend (traffic) and Father's Day (family > stuff)? Otherwise I have no preference. > David > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > > > > > Hey, all -- I'm finally back home in Nebraska from the Michigan meeting > > (just in time to catch the tail end of the Omaha tribal powwow in Macy, > on > > a scorching hot day) and before I get sidetracked by too many other > things > > I want to check in with everybody about next year's conference. > > > > (1) The conference will be in Wayne, Nebraska, hosted by Wayne State > > College. I talked to my dean and he is enthusiastic about > > supporting/hosting us, so it's definitely a go. > > > > (2) DATE -- Let's aim for early summer -- June or possibly even late > May. > > Say, the weekend of May 29, June 5, 12, 19, 26, or July 3?? Does anyone > > know of conflicts or have preferences among these dates? I know it's > way > > early, but summer has a tendency to get filled up, so I'd like to set a > > date soon ... > > > > (3) Just to get it in writing... the 2005 meeting is tentatively set for > > Oklahoma, with Bob &/or Kathy hosting, no? > > > > Catherine > > > > > > > > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 18 18:10:39 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:10:39 -0600 Subject: Cleft/Focus Example In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > This IS a great example! Sure looks like a cleft to me. And it's > especially nice to have a sentence with the cleft/focus -e after a noun -- > I think the ones in your paper were just about all on demonstratives or > verbs/clauses. Yes, though that may have been an artifact of looking for e(')-e ... I was looking particularly at the postverbal examples in an attempt to determine the relationship of =e to the proximate/obviative system. I will have to cast my net wider, given the clefting analysis. It's a learning process. > I wonder what the syntax of this looks like... can -e attach to any > type of constituent? Well, so far, lots of demonstratives, a certain number of verbs, and one noun. Also, commonly to personal pronouns, as in wi=e'=bdhiN 'it is I'. And, perhaps relevant, there are a few postverbal particles, essentially modal, e.g., (e=)iN=the 'perhaps', (e=)t[]e'must', and and so on, that seem to have two versions - one which attaches to the verb, one with attached to e= following the verb. I've never been able to decide why that happened. In the cast of 'must' (or maybe it's 'ought'?) the problem is partly determining whether it is =tte or =the. > Does it make an adjoined phrase of some kind? Yes, as far as I can tell. I believe that's the essence of a cleft, and I am arguing that this is a cleft and not just an "in-place" mark of focus. Of course, if you're dealing with an SOV language and most clauses are SV or OV, it's hard to move the extracted and adjoined phrase far. However, sometimes in the examples I gave at the meeting the extraction is postposed, and I think the adverbial examples involved fronting, too, though over the years - ignoring syntactic processes like focus - I've gotten into the comfortable rut of assuming that adverbs can pretty much occur where they like without it needing any particular comment on my part. About the only thing in this line - odd placement of adverbs - that I've noticed previously is that some adverbs seem to insert themselves between the verb and the plural/proximate marking. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 18 18:12:50 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:12:50 -0600 Subject: Siouan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Koontz John E wrote: > Apparently, [Father's Day is] the third Sunday in June, or June 20th. > And, for those who want to know, Mother's Day, the second Sunday in > May, or May 9th. Let me clarify that this is from the rules, not from a calendar. So, it wouldn't hurt to check a calendar. JEK From vstabler at esu1.org Mon Aug 18 20:37:37 2003 From: vstabler at esu1.org (Vida Stabler) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:37:37 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: Hi Catherine, now you have my interest. I always wanted to find an opportunity where the Siouan group could meet our team here at the UmoNhoN Language Center. We'd love to be involved with the planning. Maybe we could share some of the work we do. Many of you know our team at the School has been working with Ardis Eschenberg for over 3 years now. For those of you who don't know, the Elders (6), Ardis and I are part of a revitilization effort here on the Omaha reservation. We have made great gains over the last 3 years and I will never again 'bad talk' Linguists (aye!). The Siouan group can really do a lot to help Native people with revitilization efforts. We've been at it over 5 years and could present what we have learned, especially what the Elders have taught us. What do you think? Vida Stabler, UmoNhoN Language Center Director Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > Hey, all -- I'm finally back home in Nebraska from the Michigan meeting > (just in time to catch the tail end of the Omaha tribal powwow in Macy, on > a scorching hot day) and before I get sidetracked by too many other things > I want to check in with everybody about next year's conference. > > (1) The conference will be in Wayne, Nebraska, hosted by Wayne State > College. I talked to my dean and he is enthusiastic about > supporting/hosting us, so it's definitely a go. > > (2) DATE -- Let's aim for early summer -- June or possibly even late May. > Say, the weekend of May 29, June 5, 12, 19, 26, or July 3?? Does anyone > know of conflicts or have preferences among these dates? I know it's way > early, but summer has a tendency to get filled up, so I'd like to set a > date soon ... > > (3) Just to get it in writing... the 2005 meeting is tentatively set for > Oklahoma, with Bob &/or Kathy hosting, no? > > Catherine From mary.marino at usask.ca Mon Aug 18 21:10:29 2003 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Mary Marino) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:10:29 -0600 Subject: Siouan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Any of these dates is fine with me. Father's Day is the 20th of June, if that is a concern. I think I would prefer the date to be earlier rather than later (I might get out of attending our Convocation Banquet!). Mary Marino At 12:01 PM 8/18/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Hey, all -- I'm finally back home in Nebraska from the Michigan meeting >(just in time to catch the tail end of the Omaha tribal powwow in Macy, on >a scorching hot day) and before I get sidetracked by too many other things >I want to check in with everybody about next year's conference. > >(1) The conference will be in Wayne, Nebraska, hosted by Wayne State >College. I talked to my dean and he is enthusiastic about >supporting/hosting us, so it's definitely a go. > >(2) DATE -- Let's aim for early summer -- June or possibly even late May. >Say, the weekend of May 29, June 5, 12, 19, 26, or July 3?? Does anyone >know of conflicts or have preferences among these dates? I know it's way >early, but summer has a tendency to get filled up, so I'd like to set a >date soon ... > >(3) Just to get it in writing... the 2005 meeting is tentatively set for >Oklahoma, with Bob &/or Kathy hosting, no? > >Catherine From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 18 21:17:08 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:17:08 -0600 Subject: Siouan Conference In-Reply-To: <3F413910.AA412819@esu1.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Vida Stabler wrote: > Hi Catherine, now you have my interest. I always wanted to find an > opportunity where the Siouan group could meet our team here at the > UmoNhoN Language Center. We'd love to be involved with the planning. > Maybe we could share some of the work we do. I can't speak for Catherine or Wayne, but I can say on my own behalf, as someone who intends to attend next year, that it would be great to hear what the UmoNhoN Language Center is up to, and, for that matter, it would be nice to hear from any of the Siouan language programs in Nebraska, though I'm not really very up to date on Winnebago/Hochank or, especially, Santee or Ponca activities. John From goodtracks at GBRonline.com Mon Aug 18 17:56:17 2003 From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:56:17 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: I would vote for the last weekend of May,04. It seems like it will be a 3 day week end. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC" To: Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 12:01 PM Subject: Siouan Conference > > Hey, all -- I'm finally back home in Nebraska from the Michigan meeting > (just in time to catch the tail end of the Omaha tribal powwow in Macy, on > a scorching hot day) and before I get sidetracked by too many other things > I want to check in with everybody about next year's conference. > > (1) The conference will be in Wayne, Nebraska, hosted by Wayne State > College. I talked to my dean and he is enthusiastic about > supporting/hosting us, so it's definitely a go. > > (2) DATE -- Let's aim for early summer -- June or possibly even late May. > Say, the weekend of May 29, June 5, 12, 19, 26, or July 3?? Does anyone > know of conflicts or have preferences among these dates? I know it's way > early, but summer has a tendency to get filled up, so I'd like to set a > date soon ... > > (3) Just to get it in writing... the 2005 meeting is tentatively set for > Oklahoma, with Bob &/or Kathy hosting, no? > > Catherine > > > > From rankin at ku.edu Tue Aug 19 01:58:56 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:58:56 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: Sounds like a winner to me. Maybe one of the sessions could be held at Macy?? Bob > Hi Catherine, now you have my interest. I always wanted to find an opportunity where the Siouan group could meet our team here at the UmoNhoN Language Center. We'd love to be involved with the planning. Maybe we could share some of the work we do. From voorhis at westman.wave.ca Tue Aug 19 04:15:20 2003 From: voorhis at westman.wave.ca (voorhis at westman.wave.ca) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:15:20 -0500 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > The remaining issue here is the comparison of uN or aN with ee. As I > think I asked, isn't there something funny about the distribution of *ee > in Algonquian - like first syllables only? I'll comment on this since the "lurking Algonquianists" don't seem to be reacting. Proto-Algonquian short *i and *e apparently didn't contrast in first syllables; *e is generally reconstructed. Proto-Algonquian long *ii seems not to occur in initial position, though after cononants both *ii and *ee are found in first syllables. Elsewhere *ee and *aa are occasionally in alternation conditioned by following pronominal suffixes. Paul From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Tue Aug 19 14:27:59 2003 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:27:59 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: Hi, Vida! Glad you are in on the conversation. I'd love to have the UmoNhoN Language Center's input in planning the conference. A presentation on the work you and the elders have been doing in Macy would be great -- I was hoping for something like that anyway, so I'm glad you volunteered it. Maybe we can arrange a visit to the Center, or maybe you have other ideas. I'll call you to talk about it. Thanks for your invitation -- it's way too long since I've made it over to the school. I'll try to come see you guys before the semester gets too messy. Probably on a Tuesday or Thursday afternoon. But I'll call first. Talk to you soon. Give my regards to everyone at the Center! Catherine Vida Stabler To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent by: cc: owner-siouan at lists.c Subject: Re: Siouan Conference olorado.edu 08/18/03 03:37 PM Please respond to siouan Hi Catherine, now you have my interest. I always wanted to find an opportunity where the Siouan group could meet our team here at the UmoNhoN Language Center. We'd love to be involved with the planning. Maybe we could share some of the work we do. Many of you know our team at the School has been working with Ardis Eschenberg for over 3 years now. For those of you who don't know, the Elders (6), Ardis and I are part of a revitilization effort here on the Omaha reservation. We have made great gains over the last 3 years and I will never again 'bad talk' Linguists (aye!). The Siouan group can really do a lot to help Native people with revitilization efforts. We've been at it over 5 years and could present what we have learned, especially what the Elders have taught us. What do you think? Vida Stabler, UmoNhoN Language Center Director Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > Hey, all -- I'm finally back home in Nebraska from the Michigan meeting > (just in time to catch the tail end of the Omaha tribal powwow in Macy, on > a scorching hot day) and before I get sidetracked by too many other things > I want to check in with everybody about next year's conference. > > (1) The conference will be in Wayne, Nebraska, hosted by Wayne State > College. I talked to my dean and he is enthusiastic about > supporting/hosting us, so it's definitely a go. > > (2) DATE -- Let's aim for early summer -- June or possibly even late May. > Say, the weekend of May 29, June 5, 12, 19, 26, or July 3?? Does anyone > know of conflicts or have preferences among these dates? I know it's way > early, but summer has a tendency to get filled up, so I'd like to set a > date soon ... > > (3) Just to get it in writing... the 2005 meeting is tentatively set for > Oklahoma, with Bob &/or Kathy hosting, no? > > Catherine From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Tue Aug 19 14:41:43 2003 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:41:43 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: >I can't speak for Catherine or Wayne, but I can say on my own behalf, as >someone who intends to attend next year, that it would be great to hear >what the UmoNhoN Language Center is up to, and, for that matter, it would >be nice to hear from any of the Siouan language programs in Nebraska, >though I'm not really very up to date on Winnebago/Hochank or, especially, >Santee or Ponca activities. Absolutely! I (and I'm sure the whole group) would welcome presentations from any of the nearby language programs (or even not-so-nearby ones). If anyone out there reading this is involved with a Siouan language program, please consider yourself invited! Catherine you can contact me at 402-375-4316 or 402-375-7026 or mail carudin1 at wsc.edu From jmcbride at kayserv.net Tue Aug 19 15:35:05 2003 From: jmcbride at kayserv.net (Justin McBride) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:35:05 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: > Absolutely! I (and I'm sure the whole group) would welcome presentations > from any of the nearby language programs (or even not-so-nearby ones). If > anyone out there reading this is involved with a Siouan language program, > please consider yourself invited! Perhaps this time we here at the Kanza Language Project will be able to make it. In the meantime, we're very much looking forward to the possibility of a 2005 conference in Oklahoma. There are definitely a bunch of Siouan folks down here, including Kaws, Osages, Poncas, Quapaws, Ioways, Otoe-Missourias... am I leaving anyone out? Any one of these tribes would probably be glad to donate an auditorium to the cause for a week. -jm From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Aug 19 16:13:45 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:13:45 -0600 Subject: Siouan Conference In-Reply-To: <003401c36667$86b09550$3702a8c0@Language> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Aug 2003, Justin McBride wrote: > Perhaps this time we here at the Kanza Language Project will be able > to make it. In the meantime, we're very much looking forward to the > possibility of a 2005 conference in Oklahoma. There are definitely a > bunch of Siouan folks down here, including Kaws, Osages, Poncas, > Quapaws, Ioways, Otoe-Missourias... am I leaving anyone out? Any one > of these tribes would probably be glad to donate an auditorium to the > cause for a week. I guess we're all leaving out the Caddoan languages, ever since I thoughtlessly called this the Siouan list instead of the Siouan and Caddoan list. Anyway, there are a few Caddoan groups there in OK, too, though it's hard to find enough Caddoanists to rub together to make a fire, particularly at conferences. I'm looking forward to Oklahoma, too. From arem8 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 14:27:47 2003 From: arem8 at hotmail.com (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 10:27:47 -0400 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: >From: voorhis at westman.wave.ca >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: ASB puza >Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:15:20 -0500 > >Koontz John E wrote: > > The remaining issue here is the comparison of uN or aN with ee. As I > > think I asked, isn't there something funny about the distribution of *ee > > in Algonquian - like first syllables only? > >I'll comment on this since the "lurking Algonquianists" don't seem to be >reacting. Proto-Algonquian short *i and *e apparently didn't contrast >in first syllables; *e is generally reconstructed. Proto-Algonquian >long *ii seems not to occur in initial position, though after cononants >both *ii and *ee are found in first syllables. Elsewhere *ee and *aa >are occasionally in alternation conditioned by following pronominal >suffixes. I "lurk" or rather "stalk" the Siouan discussion site for things that Siouanists have to say that might be relevant to Algonquian, as I'm especially interested in the former Siouan presence in the Ohio valley-- the Miami-Illinois name for the Ohio River does in fact translate to "Kaw River". Also, I stalk this listserv because John Koontz and Bob Rankin have been so kind over the years in answering my questions-- and with really interesting answers-- that I've always wanted to see what more they and their colleagues have to say about things. But, in this case, John's query seems to have bypassed my lurking eyes. I guess all I can add to Paul's posting is that Proto-Algonquian long */ee/ occurs, as far as I know, in all manner of syllables, but not in word-final position (although PA penultimate-syllable */ee/ does give word-final long /ee/ in Ojibwe). PA */ee/ is especially common in the penultimate syllable, e.g., */wecye:wa/ 'fly' (n.) and */melwowe:wa/ 'he/she speaks well'. Initial-syllable */ee/ is not extremely common, actually, but occurs in, for example, */e:likwa/ 'ant' and */e:hsepana/ 'raccoon'. Michael McCafferty > >Paul _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From john.koontz at colorado.edu Wed Aug 20 10:45:07 2003 From: john.koontz at colorado.edu (john.koontz at colorado.edu) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 10:45:07 --0500 Subject: Your details Message-ID: See the attached file for details -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: details.pif Type: application/octet-stream Size: 74110 bytes Desc: not available URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Aug 20 16:23:26 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 10:23:26 -0600 Subject: In Regard to Thanka ec^ha Message-ID: Be careful. At least one list subscriber got what looks like a letter returned to him from the list, indicating in proper form that he is not a subscriber - he is - but containing a payload for the latest email virus. It is possible to get subscriber names for non-silent participants from the list archives, so somebody could put something like this together as a way of persuading you or your system to open the attachment, or in an attempt to get you to send the attachment to the list in your own name. I haven't figured this one out. It might have been specifically hand targetted at the person in question or it may be that it was generated as a side effect of one of the now standard schemes for making nastygrams look like they are just something coming back to you or, alternatively, for making mail appear to be coming from an address that is actually non-existant or irrelevant, but do please be careful about opening at least bounced back mail from the list, and do make sure that your virus protection software is up to date. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Aug 20 16:25:18 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 10:25:18 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Aug 2003, Michael McCafferty wrote: > I "lurk" or rather "stalk" the Siouan discussion site for things that > Siouanists have to say that might be relevant to Algonquian, as I'm > especially interested in the former Siouan presence in the Ohio valley-- the > Miami-Illinois name for the Ohio River does in fact translate to "Kaw > River". Also, I stalk this listserv because John Koontz and Bob Rankin have > been so kind over the years in answering my questions-- and with really > interesting answers-- that I've always wanted to see what more they and > their colleagues have to say about things. But, in this case, John's query > seems to have bypassed my lurking eyes. > > I guess all I can add to Paul's posting is that Proto-Algonquian long */ee/ > occurs, as far as I know, in all manner of syllables, ... Yes, I seem to have remembered this distribution restriction in an inverted form! From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Aug 20 16:42:49 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 10:42:49 -0600 Subject: In Regard to Thanka ec^ha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Aug 2003, Koontz John E wrote: > Be careful. ... My conclusion, after thinking about this further, and without going into details, is that somebody on the list who communicates with the person in question off list has a virus infected system, and that the virus constructed a message to the list that appeared to come from the person in question. However, the address used for the supposed sender wasn't quite right for his list subscription, and so the letter was bounced back to the supposed sender by the list. However, what this tells me is that a virus mailing (or even a spam mailing) targetting this list that does appear to come from an actual subscriber to this list might get through. It depends on how successful the camouflaging of the actual sender is. In the case of a virus, the actual sender might well be an asctual subscriber, of course, and no camouflaging would be needed. Fortunately most current viruses cleverly avoid sending mail in the actual name of the infected user/system. In any event, please be careful with list mailings that fit virus or spam patterns. If anything does get through, I'll reset the list so that I approve all postings, but that's sort of like shutting the door to the henhouse with the fox inside. From mary.marino at usask.ca Wed Aug 20 17:11:33 2003 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Mary Marino) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 11:11:33 -0600 Subject: In Regard to Thanka ec^ha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John - I just received an email from you that was blocked by the U of Saskatchewan system with a virus warning. Maybe this has something to do with this incident you described below. Mary At 10:23 AM 8/20/2003 -0600, you wrote: >Be careful. At least one list subscriber got what looks like a letter >returned to him from the list, indicating in proper form that he is not a >subscriber - he is - but containing a payload for the latest email virus. >It is possible to get subscriber names for non-silent participants from >the list archives, so somebody could put something like this together as a >way of persuading you or your system to open the attachment, or in an >attempt to get you to send the attachment to the list in your own name. > >I haven't figured this one out. It might have been specifically hand >targetted at the person in question or it may be that it was generated as >a side effect of one of the now standard schemes for making nastygrams >look like they are just something coming back to you or, alternatively, >for making mail appear to be coming from an address that is actually >non-existant or irrelevant, but do please be careful about opening at >least bounced back mail from the list, and do make sure that your virus >protection software is up to date. > >John E. Koontz >http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Aug 20 20:06:09 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:06:09 -0600 Subject: Additional Warning In-Reply-To: <00e401c36753$18af6440$dbab8351@a5h1k3> Message-ID: A lot of people are getting letters purportedly from me (off the list) containing virus attachments. This is further virus traffic. Typical examples say "Your details" and refer to an attachment, but this virus (sobig) has a lot of variant messages, mostly pretty plausible sounding. I assume that myy address was harvested from the same infected system that harvested the list address and the addresses of the individuals who are receiving mail from me or other list members with the virus attachment. Delete the letter, and delete the attachment file, if you mailer keeps them separately. Make sure your virus protection software is up to date. There is a description of sobig and a pointer to a fix at the Symantec Norton Anti-Virus site: http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.sobig.f at mm.html Note that you should always check links in letter like this to make sure that they are pointing to the site they appear to be pointing at. And that that site is the correctly spelled name of a site that you might want to go to. Note that one of the more popular forms of SPAM these days is offers to sell NAV cheaply (not coming from Symantec), and that one of the variants of sobig claims to be a messa from NAV reporting that you sent a virus-infected letter (details in attachment), which has been rejected. Never open the attachments on these things ... From rankin at ku.edu Wed Aug 20 20:27:24 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:27:24 -0500 Subject: Additional Warning Message-ID: Just today I have received a string of "undeliverable" notices from email addresses I never sent any mail to. I forward mine to the "abuse" address at the KU comp center. I think it is possible that someone got hold of the Siouan list directory. If others of you get this sort of mail, check with your local university ISP or comp center web site: they probably have something like an abuse address you can forward your viruses and spam to for action. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Koontz John E [mailto:John.Koontz at colorado.edu] Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 3:06 PM To: Siouan List Subject: Additional Warning A lot of people are getting letters purportedly from me (off the list) containing virus attachments. This is further virus traffic. Typical examples say "Your details" and refer to an attachment, but this virus (sobig) has a lot of variant messages, mostly pretty plausible sounding. I assume that myy address was harvested from the same infected system that harvested the list address and the addresses of the individuals who are receiving mail from me or other list members with the virus attachment. Delete the letter, and delete the attachment file, if you mailer keeps them separately. Make sure your virus protection software is up to date. There is a description of sobig and a pointer to a fix at the Symantec Norton Anti-Virus site: http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.sobig.f at mm.html Note that you should always check links in letter like this to make sure that they are pointing to the site they appear to be pointing at. And that that site is the correctly spelled name of a site that you might want to go to. Note that one of the more popular forms of SPAM these days is offers to sell NAV cheaply (not coming from Symantec), and that one of the variants of sobig claims to be a messa from NAV reporting that you sent a virus-infected letter (details in attachment), which has been rejected. Never open the attachments on these things ... From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Aug 20 20:52:38 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:52:38 -0600 Subject: Additional Warning In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D165BDD@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Aug 2003, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Just today I have received a string of "undeliverable" notices from email > addresses I never sent any mail to. I forward mine to the "abuse" address > at the KU comp center. I think it is possible that someone got hold of the > Siouan list directory. If others of you get this sort of mail, check with > your local university ISP or comp center web site: they probably have > something like an abuse address you can forward your viruses and spam to for > action. There's not much point in forwarding virus mail to an abuse center, as there is no one to track down and complain to. SPAM mail varies. Originally it was mostly return addressed the sender or then someone whose mailing setup had been hijacked. Today a lot of it is pattern automatic stuff with invalid return addresses, but some sort of valid contact address for the customer who purchased the campaign in the body of the letter. It's not worth complaining more than once about particular patterns of SPAM. If you get more than some threshhold number of a pattern of SPAM letter you're better off creating a mail filter that trashes letters that match the pattern. At some point they will start verifying that all incoming and outgoing email addresses are valid, a lot of overhead, I think, and that will cut down on most of the things you see today, when combined with blocking sending sites that won't stop sending validly return-addressed SPAM. At the moment the will to regulate is lacking in a lot of quarters and a few legistators - in the US, anyway - seem to think that unsolicited commercial email is a valid commercial activity. JEK From jfu at centrum.cz Wed Aug 20 17:58:43 2003 From: jfu at centrum.cz (jfu at centrum.cz) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:58:43 --0500 Subject: Your details Message-ID: Please see the attached file for details. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: your_document.pif Type: application/octet-stream Size: 75748 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Aug 20 19:24:44 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (rankin at ku.edu) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:24:44 --0500 Subject: Your details Message-ID: See the attached file for details -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: movie0045.pif Type: application/octet-stream Size: 72756 bytes Desc: not available URL: From vstabler at esu1.org Thu Aug 21 13:27:48 2003 From: vstabler at esu1.org (Vida Stabler) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:27:48 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: UdoN. I'm going out of town I'll call later. Vida Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > Hi, Vida! Glad you are in on the conversation. I'd love to have the > UmoNhoN Language Center's input in planning the conference. A presentation > on the work you and the elders have been doing in Macy would be great -- I > was hoping for something like that anyway, so I'm glad you volunteered it. > Maybe we can arrange a visit to the Center, or maybe you have other ideas. > I'll call you to talk about it. > > Thanks for your invitation -- it's way too long since I've made it over to > the school. I'll try to come see you guys before the semester gets too > messy. Probably on a Tuesday or Thursday afternoon. But I'll call first. > > Talk to you soon. Give my regards to everyone at the Center! > Catherine > > > Vida Stabler > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Sent by: cc: > owner-siouan at lists.c Subject: Re: Siouan Conference > olorado.edu > > > 08/18/03 03:37 PM > Please respond to > siouan > > > > Hi Catherine, now you have my interest. I always wanted to find an > opportunity > where the Siouan group could meet our team here at the UmoNhoN Language > Center. We'd love to be involved with the planning. Maybe we could share > some > of the work we do. Many of you know our team at the School has been > working > with Ardis Eschenberg for over 3 years now. For those of you who don't > know, > the Elders (6), Ardis and I are part of a revitilization effort here on the > Omaha reservation. We have made great gains over the last 3 years and I > will > never again 'bad talk' Linguists (aye!). The Siouan group can really do a > lot > to help Native people with revitilization efforts. We've been at it over 5 > years and could present what we have learned, especially what the Elders > have > taught us. What do you think? > Vida Stabler, UmoNhoN Language Center Director > > Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > > > Hey, all -- I'm finally back home in Nebraska from the Michigan meeting > > (just in time to catch the tail end of the Omaha tribal powwow in Macy, > on > > a scorching hot day) and before I get sidetracked by too many other > things > > I want to check in with everybody about next year's conference. > > > > (1) The conference will be in Wayne, Nebraska, hosted by Wayne State > > College. I talked to my dean and he is enthusiastic about > > supporting/hosting us, so it's definitely a go. > > > > (2) DATE -- Let's aim for early summer -- June or possibly even late > May. > > Say, the weekend of May 29, June 5, 12, 19, 26, or July 3?? Does anyone > > know of conflicts or have preferences among these dates? I know it's > way > > early, but summer has a tendency to get filled up, so I'd like to set a > > date soon ... > > > > (3) Just to get it in writing... the 2005 meeting is tentatively set for > > Oklahoma, with Bob &/or Kathy hosting, no? > > > > Catherine From rankin at ku.edu Thu Aug 21 14:24:26 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:24:26 -0500 Subject: FW: Virus info. Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, It looks as though one of the list members is indeed infected with the "sobig.f" virus/worm. Carolyn Quintero got a message with an attachment from my email address, but I hadn't sent her anything. I use the University's antivirus software and they too filter all incoming email, so apparently I'm not the one who is infected. But someone with me and Carolyn in their address book IS infected. I asked KU about it and got the following response. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Doughty, Liz On Behalf Of KU Abuse Reporting Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 4:22 PM To: Rankin, Robert L Subject: RE: virus? These e-mails most likely come from a virus/worm. You are receiving these messages because your e-mail address is in the e-mail addressbook of someone who has been infected with one of several viruses that can produce e-mails such as the ones you are receiving. When these viruses execute, they gather all the e-mail addresses they can find on the infected computer and secretly send infected messages to all but one of those addresses. The virus then places that one, randomly chosen, address in the From: field of all those infected outgoing messages (your address, in this case). This is so that it will be difficult to determine where the messages really came from, and also means that some innocent person (you) will be wrongly accused. It does NOT mean that you are infected. The returned mail notices you are receiving look like they might be from sobig.f, or one of several other worms that have similar behavior. Information on most of the viruses that have been spotted at KU can be found at http://www.ku.edu/acs/virus/moreviruses.shtml. KU is scanning all incoming and outgoing mail for these and many other viruses/worms, and we are asking that you DO NOT open any attachments that you are not expecting. If you are not running current anti-virus software and are affiliated with KU, you may download KU's free anti-virus package from www.ku.edu/acs/virus. I hope this answers your questions and puts your mind at least a bit at ease. KU Abuse Team -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 3:54 PM To: Abuse Reporting Subject: FW: virus? I have just today received a whole string of these "undeliverable" notices from various persons I do not know and who are not on any list I am a member of. A friend in Colorado has gotten several too and says they contain the "sobig" virus in their attachments. R. Rankin From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Thu Aug 21 15:15:33 2003 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:15:33 -0600 Subject: virus/worm Message-ID: We are indeed sending messages with the "sobig" worm from here, but we can't help it: the problem is at the level of the university server, not individual computers. I'm told that Microsoft has sent us a team to help get rid of it. Meanwhile, we can only apologize -- we're getting the annoying things too -- and tell you to delete the stuff and avoid opening attachments. I don't know the whole story, but Symantec says it's scheduled to de-activate itself on Sept. 10. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Thu Aug 21 15:44:27 2003 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:44:27 -0500 Subject: In Regard to Thanka ec^ha Message-ID: I've received several (4, I think) "your details" e-mails, purportedly from various members of the list. I'll send one to our computer folks, but it might be helpful to send along the name of the virus too, and I foolishly deleted the message with that information... can someone repeat it? Thanks. Catherine From rankin at ku.edu Thu Aug 21 15:57:17 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:57:17 -0500 Subject: In Regard to Thanka ec^ha Message-ID: KU says it is the "sobig.f" virus/worm. That probably means the F variant of that virus, but I'm not sure. Basically, just don't open the "attachment". Any of you who are affiliated with a university or corporation that maintains anti-virus software should probably download the latest additions to their virus DEF files and check your own hard drives. Even if you already have such software, it may need the latest update. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC [mailto:CaRudin1 at wsc.edu] Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 10:44 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: In Regard to Thanka ec^ha I've received several (4, I think) "your details" e-mails, purportedly from various members of the list. I'll send one to our computer folks, but it might be helpful to send along the name of the virus too, and I foolishly deleted the message with that information... can someone repeat it? Thanks. Catherine From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 22 14:41:53 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:41:53 -0500 Subject: Another virus clue. Message-ID: The person on the list who is infected with the sobig computer virus is also a member of PlainsIndianSeminarTwo at Yahoogroups according to the error message I've received. If you are a member of that news group please check your computer. Symantec and McAffee websites have patches you can download to "fix" the problem if you have it. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Yahoo! Groups [mailto:notify at yahoogroups.com] Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 6:00 PM To: rankin at KU.EDU Subject: Unable to process your message We are unable to process the message from to . The email address used to send your message is not subscribed to this group. If you are a member of this group, please be aware that you may only send messages and manage your subscription to this group using the email address(es) you have registered with Yahoo! Groups. Yahoo! Groups allows you to use the email address you originally used to register, or an alternate email address you specify in your personal settings. If you would like to subscribe to this group: 1. visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PlainsIndianSeminartwo/join -OR- 2. send email to PlainsIndianSeminartwo-subscribe at yahoogroups.com If you would like to specify an alternate email address: 1. visit http://groups.yahoo 2. type your alternate email address in the area labeled "Alternate posting addresses". 3. click the "Save Changes" button 4. wait approximately 10 minutes for the change to take effect After you follow these steps, you will be able to send messages to all your groups using this alternate email address. From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Sun Aug 24 20:43:29 2003 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:43:29 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: OK -- having weeded out Memorial Day, Father's Day, family-complication days, and the weekend when both motels are already booked solid for a big family reunion -- and having checked for linguistic conflicts everywhere I could think of -- it looks like the best date for next year's Siouan and Caddoan conference is June 11-13. So mark your calendars!! If anyone spots major problems with this weekend, let me know. It's not quite set in stone. But unless something big comes up, this will be the date. I'll go ahead and reserve blocks of rooms etc. now, so we don't get bumped by someone's wedding or something,. Calls for papers and whatnot will be along eventually -- in a few months -- watch this space. From rankin at ku.edu Sun Aug 24 22:11:50 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 17:11:50 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: That date sounds just fine to me. I'd like to request that you put on your "to do" list getting the SACC on the official meetings calendars of 1. LSA 2. AAA 3. SSILA I've been saying that for over 15 years and we have yet to get information to the proper people in time to get our conference listed in the LSA Bulletin/website, the AAA Newsletter and the SSILA Newsletter. I think it may have made it into one or two of them once or twice, but we really ought to get it in to all three in time for interested scholars to plan ahead. Who knows what Europeans, Indian people or other groups may be out there who don't know about us? Bob -----Original Message----- From: Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC [mailto:CaRudin1 at wsc.edu] Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 3:43 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Siouan Conference OK -- having weeded out Memorial Day, Father's Day, family-complication days, and the weekend when both motels are already booked solid for a big family reunion -- and having checked for linguistic conflicts everywhere I could think of -- it looks like the best date for next year's Siouan and Caddoan conference is June 11-13. So mark your calendars!! If anyone spots major problems with this weekend, let me know. It's not quite set in stone. But unless something big comes up, this will be the date. I'll go ahead and reserve blocks of rooms etc. now, so we don't get bumped by someone's wedding or something,. Calls for papers and whatnot will be along eventually -- in a few months -- watch this space. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 25 06:02:13 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:02:13 -0600 Subject: Siouan Conference In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164D30@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Aug 2003, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I'd like to request that you put on your "to do" list getting the SACC on > the official meetings calendars of > > 1. LSA > 2. AAA > 3. SSILA I'd add the Linguist List to this. From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Mon Aug 25 08:26:34 2003 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (Heike =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=F6deker?=) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:26:34 +0200 Subject: Siouan Conference In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164D30@meadowlark2.home.ku .edu> Message-ID: At 17:11 24.08.03 -0500, Rankin, Robert L wrote: >Who knows what Europeans, Indian people or other groups may be out there >who don't know about us? As for the former, how 'bout adding Yumtzilob and European Review of Native Studies to the list? All the best, Heike From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Mon Aug 25 14:27:29 2003 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:27:29 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: > I'd like to request that you put on your "to do" list getting the SACC on > the official meetings calendars of > > 1. LSA > 2. AAA > 3. SSILA >I'd add the Linguist List to this. >... how 'bout adding Yumtzilob and European Review of Native >Studies to the list? ------- Thanks for all the good suggestions. Will do! Catherine From rankin at ku.edu Mon Aug 25 15:14:44 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:14:44 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: >Who knows what Europeans, Indian people or other groups may be out there >who don't know about us? >As for the former, how 'bout adding Yumtzilob and European Review of Native Studies to the list? I guess it would probably be a good idea to write up a little blurb mentioning what we're about too, so unfamiliar readers will have some idea of what to expect (and not expect). I'd like to see the conference grow some. Or, as George W. Bush would say "We'd like to grow the conference." Lots of new causatives in English nowadays. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 25 16:09:34 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:09:34 -0600 Subject: Siouan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One thing folks can do in this line is to post the announcement to this list and ask subscribers to repost it wherever they think appropriate. That's how SACC announcements used to get to places like Linguist List. I'd receive the announcement sent out manually by David or someone else and repost it on my own. We've gotten a bit sloppier with the existence of the Siouan list and verged sometimes on the stylish new instant mob approach. From vstabler at esu1.org Tue Aug 26 17:08:46 2003 From: vstabler at esu1.org (Vida Stabler) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:08:46 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: Siouan List, June 11th falls on UmoNhoN Nation Public School's summer. Unfortunately, students will be enjoying their summer by then but we'll work something out. The logistics of the school or WSC can be worked out too. VSS "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: > Sounds like a winner to me. Maybe one of the sessions could be held at > Macy?? > > Bob > > > Hi Catherine, now you have my interest. I always wanted to find an > opportunity > where the Siouan group could meet our team here at the UmoNhoN Language > Center. We'd love to be involved with the planning. Maybe we could share > some > of the work we do. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Aug 1 01:39:37 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 19:39:37 -0600 Subject: Our wish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Jul 2003, Rory M Larson wrote: > I'd like to clarify some of what you said: > > > whereas 'to think' is *DEMONSTRATIVE=ye. > > Did you mean =ye here, or =re? I thought *r => Dh. [dh], > [y], etc., while *y => Dh. [zh]. Yes, that's correct for *y in most contexts, but not intervocalically, when epenthetic, or when in clusters like *py or *ky. I went into this in great detail - actually, in excruciating detail - in http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0306&L=siouan&P=R4795 http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0306&L=siouan&P=R4852 > So across all of Siouan, this *ra stem is known only in > Dhegihan *kuN=ra ? I think it also occurs in Ioway-Otoe reflexes of the stem. I'll check. > How many distinct *k- stems do we have? Could it be that when > consonant clusters are reduced, *pku- => *kku-, while *pka- => *ppa- ? > I.e., high, back vowels like velar stops, while other vowels prefer > labial stops? Well, appart from gaNdha < *kuNra and gaghe < *kaghe there's gaNze 'to show' < *kuNze, which has A1 ppaNze. Also, gaNziNga 'not to know how to' has ppaNz^iNga. I don't know of cognates outside Dhegiha, but I suspect the intial element there might be *kuN as in gaNdha, in which case the construction is perhaps literally 'to little desire to'. So it looks like the vowel and maybe even the identity of the morpheme are irrelevant. I have pondered this a bit, but I haven't come up with anything. Other k-stems: gi (< *ku) 'to come back' (Teton may have phu < *hpu (?) for the first person of this in an isolated and obsolete idiom involving someone seeing someone they haven't seen for a while and saying s^ku, whereupon that person replies with phu. I think this is the only attested s^ in the second person in Dakotan. Allan Taylor pointed this out to me. It's in Buechel's dictionary.) gadha (gadhae?) 'to donate' This might be the lot. I don't recall any more examples off hand. Of course, essentially the only other g-initial verbs are those in ga- 'by striking, by action of current', which has its own unique paradigm. Verbs in b/d/g are rare, if you count the cases of stem-initial instrumentals b/d/g as a single example. That is, count all examples of ba-stems as one form ba-, all examples of bi-stems as one form bi-, and all examples of ga-stems as one example. All cases of instrumentals in b/d/g reduce to three examples, because there are only three instrumentals that do this, if I haven't forgotten one. This statement is phrased for OP, but applies with appropriate modifications in other Siouan languages, too. While you're at it, consider Mandan pke 'turtle' vs. Dakotan khe(ya), Dhegiha kke, Winnebago kee(=ra). This might be a *pk > *hk initial set, too, and behaves like the *kuN in *kuNra. JEK From napshawin at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 03:41:56 2003 From: napshawin at hotmail.com (Violet Catches) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 22:41:56 -0500 Subject: taku- vs. taku- Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Aug 1 13:29:49 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 07:29:49 -0600 Subject: PMV 'want' Message-ID: This is a quick survey of 'want' across Mississippi Valley Siouan. All Dhegiha has *...kuN=...ra (A1 p-kuN=p-ra) OP ...gaN=...dha (A1 kkaN=bdha) Os ...koN=...dha (A1 kkoN=bra) Ks ...goN=...ya (A1 *kkoN=bla) Qu ...koN=...da (A1 kkoN=pda) Having kk rather than pp in the first person is unusual all the other (not many) k-stems have pp in the first person, e.g., OP gaghe (A1 ppaghe). Ioway-Otoe has: IO guN=...na (< *kuN=...ra) or guN=...ra (Marsh) I *think* only the second element is inflected, but this form is not presented anywhere with a paradigm that I have seen. The first person is probably something like A1 *guNada, by analogy with other r-stems, but this is not certain. (R-stem first persons have both regular and r-stem inflection, a-d... < ha A1 + R, R from p-r, where p is also A1.) Winnebago has: Wi roo=guN (A1 ru=aguN) In other words, the root is guN, inflected regularly. The preverb roo=, ru= is not understood. Since Marino has hiroguN(xjije) 'to desire, want', I wonder if this roo= might be from hiro- (like Dakota iyo- or OP udhu-). Dakotan has: Da kuN (A1 wakuN) There is also a diminutivized form khuN=la, but the =la is the Dakotan diminutive (< *Ra) and not cognate with the =ra in Dhegiha and Ioway-Otoe. The Dakota form has one small irregularity, in that it is not palatalized when inflection or derivaiton places an /i/ before the kh, e.g., nikuN 'he coverts thee', not expected *nic^uN (Boas & Deloria 1941:14). I have sometimes wondered if this might be connected with the kk rather than pp phenomenon in Dhegiha, but I can't see how that would be, frankly. ==== LaFlesche lists for Osage k.oN /kkoN/ 'to wish or to desire' (LaF 88b). I am pretty sure this is a ghost. LaFlesche includes little pieces of earlier work, not always transcribed under the system he uses himself, or, at least, not properly adapted to it. Thus, looking around you find a few dh-stems inflected the Osage way where LaFlesche himself always uses the Omaha way. Dorsey used dotted letters (a small x under the letter in manuscript) or turned letters (in print) to represent his conception of sonant-surds, i.e., with stops, to indicate voiceless aspirates. In OP he distinguishes g : k. : k corresponding to what we write g : kk : k (or g : k : kH in the current popular orthographies, H representing raised h). In Os, where the lax stops (g) are devoiced, he writes k. : k. : k, usually adding h. (turned h) before the tense variant of k. and usually adding opening apostrophe or x or c (s^) after the aspirates, leading to k. : h.k. : kx ~ kc in practice. LaFlesche, having a native speakers appreciation of things, usually writes (in his final system) g : k. : k in both OP and Osage, generally adding sh after aspirates before i and e, so, in practice in Osage g : k. : k ~ ksh. Thus he uses dotted letters (now a proper dot in both manuscript and print) to represent tenseness rather than voicelessness-without-aspiration. Sometimes he leaves off the dot under tense stops, probably an oversight. In his work with Alice Fletcher all the dots were left off. I have seen at least one manuscript page (the list of river names) in which they are present, so I suspect the problem here lies with Fletcher or the GPO, not with LaFlesche. What I think happened with "k.oN" is that a form "k.oN" transcribed by Dorsey, representing koN, was taken over without revising it to "goN," leading to a false impression that it represents kkoN. In short, "k.oN" in this entry represents koN, probably accidentally shorn from koNdha or one of the more exaotic forms Rory has mentioned, though I don't know fi these are actually attested for Osage. The failure to revise the foirm to goN is at least partly due, probably, to LaFlesche failing to recognize the form at all. This is a hypothesis, of course. It might be resolvable with reference to the manuscript of LaFlesche's dictionary, or Dorsey's Osage slips. JEK From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 1 14:52:21 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:52:21 -0500 Subject: RE 'want' and chair inscription. Message-ID: The form at the bottom of the inscription on the Curtis chair has what at first glance appears to be KO'ONTHA IHA. When I was going over the photo yesterday I blew up this section. The mark after the first O may be an apostrophe, but it may also be another raised "n". I think this was how at least one of John's comments interpreted it too. The more closely you look, the harder it is to tell whether the right-hand stroke on the putative "n" is part of the mark or a reflection -- or possibly a discoloration of the lacquer. I just thought I'd point that out for what it's worth. This bottom phrase is the only part of the inscription that still bothers me. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Aug 1 15:08:29 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:08:29 -0600 Subject: RE 'want' and chair inscription. In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D165B8B@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Aug 2003, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > The form at the bottom of the inscription on the Curtis chair has what at > first glance appears to be KO'ONTHA IHA. When I was going over the photo > yesterday I blew up this section. The mark after the first O may be an > apostrophe, but it may also be another raised "n". I think this was how at > least one of John's comments interpreted it too. The more closely you look, > the harder it is to tell whether the right-hand stroke on the putative "n" > is part of the mark or a reflection -- or possibly a discoloration of the > lacquer. I just thought I'd point that out for what it's worth. Yes, I interpreted the mark after the first o as a raised n. > This bottom phrase is the only part of the inscription that still bothers > me. Ditto. Though the question of the language or intended language is somewhat vexed - probably Osage, and the issue of who composed it and their familiarity with the language is also an issue. Note that iha can be 'lip', though that is unlikely here! JEK From Rgraczyk at aol.com Fri Aug 1 15:17:12 2003 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Randolph Graczyk) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:17:12 -0400 Subject: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference Message-ID: Jimm: My grammar of Crow is in the final stages--it's due at the publishers (U of Nebraska Press) by the end of the year. Randy From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 1 15:23:10 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 10:23:10 -0500 Subject: Chair Message-ID: > The usual term for 'male friend' in OP in all recorded periods is khage, even though learned linguists might recognize kku/odha. Good point. Khage in Kaw and Osage don't have that meaning/usage AFAIK. Kkodha/kkoya would be the form of choice. I fear we are at an impass in the case of MONI. It may be a second person form (Carolyn's OS speakers gave some imperatives or adhortatives with second person inflection. I thought it was a semi-speaker phenomenon, but it may be older.) But even if this is an ordinary imperative, the tendency to have dh > [n], or something that sounds very much like n, between two nasal vowels may make this question impossible to decide. It's still the bottom part that troubles me most. I suspect that it is indeed something like "We wish it - declarative', but the pronominal location remains annoying, as does the initial K instead of G. I conclude that the language is Osage, but with all the demonstrated La Fleschean tendencies to fill in inflected forms from Omaha. This is so clear that I tend to agree that the donors of the chair were probably referred to La Flesche at the Bureau as a person who could do the translation for them. I told John Boyle I'd try to sum all this up at the meeting, so, with any luck, you'll all have another little co-authored paper to put on your vita. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 1 15:34:52 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 10:34:52 -0500 Subject: Chair Message-ID: > Point 2 seems to be up in the air. We've had claims for every Dhegihan language but Quapaw. Considerations are: Curtis' tribal affiliation was Kaw, so we would expect it to come from them. Curtis was 1/8 Kaw and considered the Kaws as his tribe. They are the ones he spent several of his early years with, between age 3 and 13. He was, however, also 1/8 Osage, and there was some Potawatomi ancestry on his mother's side too. It turns out he clearly had more Indian ancestry and cultural contact during his most formative years than most historians have given him credit for. Sources say he knew the Kaw language and that he also knew French since he attended the French mission school on the reservation at Council Grove, KS. Bob From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Fri Aug 1 15:40:09 2003 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 10:40:09 -0500 Subject: It's Osage:-) In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164D0E@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I agree with Bob's statements just below: Bob wrote: I conclude that the language is Osage, but with all the demonstrated La Fleschean tendencies to fill in inflected forms from Omaha. This is so clear that I tend to agree that the donors of the chair were probably referred to La Flesche at the Bureau as a person who could do the translation for them. Kkodha/kkoya would be the form of choice. Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 10:23 AM To: 'siouan at lists.colorado.edu' Subject: RE: Chair > The usual term for 'male friend' in OP in all recorded periods is khage, even though learned linguists might recognize kku/odha. Good point. Khage in Kaw and Osage don't have that meaning/usage AFAIK. Kkodha/kkoya would be the form of choice. I fear we are at an impass in the case of MONI. It may be a second person form (Carolyn's OS speakers gave some imperatives or adhortatives with second person inflection. I thought it was a semi-speaker phenomenon, but it may be older.) But even if this is an ordinary imperative, the tendency to have dh > [n], or something that sounds very much like n, between two nasal vowels may make this question impossible to decide. It's still the bottom part that troubles me most. I suspect that it is indeed something like "We wish it - declarative', but the pronominal location remains annoying, as does the initial K instead of G. I conclude that the language is Osage, but with all the demonstrated La Fleschean tendencies to fill in inflected forms from Omaha. This is so clear that I tend to agree that the donors of the chair were probably referred to La Flesche at the Bureau as a person who could do the translation for them. I told John Boyle I'd try to sum all this up at the meeting, so, with any luck, you'll all have another little co-authored paper to put on your vita. Bob From parksd at indiana.edu Fri Aug 1 16:40:37 2003 From: parksd at indiana.edu (Parks, Douglas R.) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:40:37 -0500 Subject: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference Message-ID: Randy, Thanks for the update. I hope you don't mind my reading mail intended for Jimm. :) Doug ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - FIGHT BACK AGAINST SPAM! Download Spam Inspector, the Award Winning Anti-Spam Filter http://mail.giantcompany.com -----Original Message----- From: Rgraczyk at aol.com [mailto:Rgraczyk at aol.com] Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 10:17 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference Jimm: My grammar of Crow is in the final stages--it's due at the publishers (U of Nebraska Press) by the end of the year. Randy From goodtracks at GBRonline.com Fri Aug 1 16:44:42 2003 From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:44:42 -0500 Subject: PMV 'want' Message-ID: John: IO guNna < guNra (1S haguN=ta; 2S raguNsda) Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: "Siouan List" Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 8:29 AM Subject: PMV 'want' > This is a quick survey of 'want' across Mississippi Valley Siouan. > > All Dhegiha has *...kuN=...ra (A1 p-kuN=p-ra) > > OP ...gaN=...dha (A1 kkaN=bdha) > Os ...koN=...dha (A1 kkoN=bra) > Ks ...goN=...ya (A1 *kkoN=bla) > Qu ...koN=...da (A1 kkoN=pda) > > Having kk rather than pp in the first person is unusual all the other (not > many) k-stems have pp in the first person, e.g., OP gaghe (A1 ppaghe). > > Ioway-Otoe has: > > IO guN=...na (< *kuN=...ra) or guN=...ra (Marsh) > > I *think* only the second element is inflected, but this form is not > presented anywhere with a paradigm that I have seen. The first person is > probably something like A1 *guNada, by analogy with other r-stems, but > this is not certain. (R-stem first persons have both regular and r-stem > inflection, a-d... < ha A1 + R, R from p-r, where p is also A1.) > > Winnebago has: > > Wi roo=guN (A1 ru=aguN) > > In other words, the root is guN, inflected regularly. The preverb roo=, > ru= is not understood. Since Marino has hiroguN(xjije) 'to desire, want', > I wonder if this roo= might be from hiro- (like Dakota iyo- or OP udhu-). > > Dakotan has: > > Da kuN (A1 wakuN) > > There is also a diminutivized form khuN=la, but the =la is the Dakotan > diminutive (< *Ra) and not cognate with the =ra in Dhegiha and Ioway-Otoe. > > The Dakota form has one small irregularity, in that it is not palatalized > when inflection or derivaiton places an /i/ before the kh, e.g., nikuN 'he > coverts thee', not expected *nic^uN (Boas & Deloria 1941:14). I have > sometimes wondered if this might be connected with the kk rather than pp > phenomenon in Dhegiha, but I can't see how that would be, frankly. > > > ==== > > LaFlesche lists for Osage k.oN /kkoN/ 'to wish or to desire' (LaF 88b). > I am pretty sure this is a ghost. LaFlesche includes little pieces of > earlier work, not always transcribed under the system he uses himself, > or, at least, not properly adapted to it. Thus, looking around you > find a few dh-stems inflected the Osage way where LaFlesche himself > always uses the Omaha way. > > Dorsey used dotted letters (a small x under the letter in manuscript) or > turned letters (in print) to represent his conception of sonant-surds, > i.e., with stops, to indicate voiceless aspirates. In OP he distinguishes > g : k. : k corresponding to what we write g : kk : k (or g : k : kH in the > current popular orthographies, H representing raised h). In Os, where the > lax stops (g) are devoiced, he writes k. : k. : k, usually adding h. > (turned h) before the tense variant of k. and usually adding opening > apostrophe or x or c (s^) after the aspirates, leading to k. : h.k. : kx ~ > kc in practice. > > LaFlesche, having a native speakers appreciation of things, usually writes > (in his final system) g : k. : k in both OP and Osage, generally adding sh > after aspirates before i and e, so, in practice in Osage g : k. : k ~ ksh. > Thus he uses dotted letters (now a proper dot in both manuscript and > print) to represent tenseness rather than > voicelessness-without-aspiration. Sometimes he leaves off the dot under > tense stops, probably an oversight. In his work with Alice Fletcher all > the dots were left off. I have seen at least one manuscript page (the > list of river names) in which they are present, so I suspect the problem > here lies with Fletcher or the GPO, not with LaFlesche. > > What I think happened with "k.oN" is that a form "k.oN" transcribed by > Dorsey, representing koN, was taken over without revising it to "goN," > leading to a false impression that it represents kkoN. In short, "k.oN" > in this entry represents koN, probably accidentally shorn from koNdha or > one of the more exaotic forms Rory has mentioned, though I don't know fi > these are actually attested for Osage. The failure to revise the foirm to > goN is at least partly due, probably, to LaFlesche failing to recognize > the form at all. This is a hypothesis, of course. It might be > resolvable with reference to the manuscript of LaFlesche's dictionary, or > Dorsey's Osage slips. > > > JEK > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Aug 1 17:12:42 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:12:42 -0600 Subject: PMV 'want' In-Reply-To: <005a01c3584c$49269550$aae2bfcf@JIMM> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Aug 2003, Jimm GoodTracks wrote: > IO guNna < guNra (1S haguN=ta; 2S raguNsda) So it's doubly inflected, once on each stem, regular on guN, and r-stem (without pleonastic regular) on the second. Like Dhegiha, except for the guN stem being regular. Different from Winnebago, except that Winnebago also has guN regular. You could argue that -ra was lost or hasn't been added. Except for that roo= (hiro-) Winnebago is like Dakotan, too. Kind of an unusual isogloss, though hard to definitively read into PMV. JEK From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Fri Aug 1 18:58:26 2003 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 19:58:26 +0100 Subject: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jonathan Did you get my abstract? Bruce On 30 Jul 2003, at 16:42, John Boyle wrote: Date sent: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 16:42:18 -0500 Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: John Boyle To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference > Hi everyone, > > I too would like to know what the schedule will look like. I only > received a few (four) abstracts. I'm hoping we can do better than > that. Could all those interested in presenting a paper send me a > title (an abstract is optional but would be appreciated). In > addition, could those attending but not presenting a paper let me > know, so that we know about how many to expect. I would like to urge > everyone to present something - remember we are a rather informal lot > so it doesn't need to be polished. In addition, anyone interested in > getting together on Thursday for a mini-workshop on syntax let me > know so we can find someplace (other than the local coffee shop) to > have it. > > Thanks, > > I look forward to hearing from MANY people. > > Best wishes, > > John Boyle > Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Fri Aug 1 19:00:26 2003 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:00:26 +0100 Subject: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164D07@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I'll be arriving on the 7th to the Clarion hotel. Will have a car and will look out for any sign of a syntax workshop. Looking forward to seeing you all Bruce On 30 Jul 2003, at 15:56, Rankin, Robert L wrote: Date sent: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 15:56:19 -0500 Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: "'siouan at lists.colorado.edu'" Subject: RE: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference > I have told John Koontz I'll pick him up at the Lansing airport where he is > arriving August 6 at 6:58 p.m. If anyone else is flying in at around that > time, I'd be happy to pick them up too and drive them to the motel in East > Lansing. Please let me know if you'll want a ride around 7 p.m. or shortly > thereafter (we can wait around for a little while if there are other > arrivals somewhat later). > > I too would like to know a little about what the schedule looks like. > > Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC [mailto:CaRudin1 at wsc.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 3:39 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference > > > > Is conference planning far enough along that we could have a rough outline > of the schedule? It would be helpful for travel planning to know if the > conference will take the full three days or will start Thursday evening and > end Saturday morning or what. > > The "chair" discussion was fun -- though I didn't contribute I enjoyed > reading it. You guys seemed to have the problem pretty well solved by the > time I checked my email... > > Dr. Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies SOAS From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 1 19:58:48 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 14:58:48 -0500 Subject: PMV 'want' Message-ID: OK, how about the $64 question . . . what is it in the 1st dual and/or plural form? Are both parts inflected there, or just the first one? Bob -----Original Message----- From: Jimm GoodTracks [mailto:goodtracks at GBRonline.com] Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 11:45 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: PMV 'want' John: IO guNna < guNra (1S haguN=ta; 2S raguNsda) Jimm From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Aug 1 20:19:23 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 14:19:23 -0600 Subject: PMV 'want' In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D165B91@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Aug 2003, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > OK, how about the $64 question . . . what is it in the 1st dual and/or > plural form? Are both parts inflected there, or just the first one? Otherwise known as the A12 question ... I omitted this in my summary of the other languages, too. The issue here is that in forms like OP ...gaN=...dha where the attested form is aNgaNdha, it's impossible to be sure if the form is aN-gaN=aN-dha or aN-gaN=dha. The former might or might not be distinguishable as aNgaNaNdha if length were being heard. In Winnebago and Dakotan the issue doesn't arrise, though what the form is might be an interesting question in Winnebago with its preverb roo= ~ ru= (< hiro- ?). A similar issue arises with maNdhiN: A1 maNbdhiN, A2 maNhniN, A3 maNdhiN=i, aNmaN(aN?)dhiN=i. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Aug 2 06:51:35 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 00:51:35 -0600 Subject: Want and Hope in OP Message-ID: I have completed my investigation into OP 'want' for now. The simple verb, translated 'desire, wish' by Dorsey or his translators, is A1 kkaN'=bdha A2 s^kaN'=s^na ~ s^kaN'=hna ~ s^kaN'=na A3 gaN'=dha A12 aNgaN'=dha=i As far as other forms I did find wikkaN'=bdha=hnaN=maN 'I invariably desire you' (1890:176.17) dhigaN'=dha=b=az^i 'not desiring you' (1890:406.9) The wi is the analog of Dakotan c^hi. So, the object precedes the first stem in OP. The verb can take an animate object as in 'desire you' or 'desire her', or a plural object as in kkaN'=bdha=i 'I want them'. The more and less elaborate forms, translated 'hope' by Dorsey, are attested in a limited range of forms in the texts. Starting with the latter, it appears that when a'=bi=ama 'he said (quotative)' follows, you get: A1 kkaN 'I hope' JOD 1890:44.12-13 E'skana, wini'si, s^iN'gaz^iNga ukki'a=i Oh that my offspring children they talk with each other i'e thi=gdha'gdha= ma e'gaN kkaN', a'=bi=ama. they speak they begin repeatedly the so I hope he said Oh, I hope that my children are the kind of children who begin to speak a lot," he said. The formula with e'ska(na) .. some wish ... followed by some form meaning 'I hope' or 'I wish' is common in the texts. Dorsey renders the initial particle 'oh that' or 'would that' or 'I hope' (the last less satisfactory). Judging by glosses of =ska and e=ska in various Siouan languages, it is something like 'perhaps'. The first longer form is: A1 kkaN'=bdh=egaN This might be kkaN=bdha + egaN, but I tend to agree with Rory that it is probably a form of e=dh(e)=e'gaN 'to think'. This last is inflected: A1 e=bdh=e'gaN A2 e=s^n=e'gaN(=i) A3 e=dh=e'gaN A12 aNdhaN'dha=i (cf. aNdhaN'=i 'we said') The inclusive seems to imply an underlying stem i-dhe. For 'say' the inclusive stem could be i- or dhaN. The latter is perhaps more plausible ... A possible third person occurs in 1890:152.19 na'=t?e eskaN' edh=e'gaN dead of heat "she" "hoped he was" Here the quoted glossing is Dorsey's and seems unlikely. I think this form actually goes with forms like A1 eskaN bdh=egaN 'I expect that ...; I thought it might be that ...' A3 eskaN edh=e'gaN=i 'they thought it might be that ...' A12 eskaN aNdhaNdha=i 'we think it is so; we think that' The second longer form is: A1 kkaN'(=)e=bdh=egaN Here, however, we have a lot of inclusives to compare with. A12 kkaN'(=)aNdhaNdha=i 'we hope' Note that the puzzling form following kkaN' is 'we think' (see above). Concerning the puzzling kkaN I can only say that I am puzzled. This is not the first person, clearly, though it might be by analogy with the first person form. I don't know of any cognates for any of this, and there are no second or third persons in the texts. It does certainly look like this form and therefore probably the first one, begin with kkaN. Note that eskaN is behaving like a replacement for the e= of think in the first person of eskaN + think. In first longer alternative (kkaN=bdh=egaN), kkaN seems to replace e=. However, e= resurfaces in the second form. Perhaps this is our hint that some sort of reanalysis is at work here. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From goodtracks at GBRonline.com Sat Aug 2 15:16:44 2003 From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 10:16:44 -0500 Subject: PMV 'want' (IOM) Message-ID: Bob: IO guNna < guNra (1S haguN=ta; 2S raguNsda) Dual: IO guNna < guNra (hiNguN=ra) Plural: IO guNna < guNra (1P hiNguN=rawi) IO guNna < guNra (2P raguNsdawi) IO guNna < guNra (3P guN=ranye) ; [ny = n ~ / (?)] Dual Plural: IO guNna < guNra (3p guN=rawi) Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 2:58 PM Subject: RE: PMV 'want' > OK, how about the $64 question . . . what is it in the 1st dual and/or > plural form? Are both parts inflected there, or just the first one? > > Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jimm GoodTracks [mailto:goodtracks at GBRonline.com] > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 11:45 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: PMV 'want' > > > John: > IO guNna < guNra (1S haguN=ta; 2S raguNsda) > > Jimm > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Aug 2 22:39:36 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 16:39:36 -0600 Subject: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Jul 2003, John Boyle wrote: > In addition, anyone interested in getting together on Thursday for a > mini-workshop on syntax let me know so we can find someplace (other > than the local coffee shop) to have it. I'll definitely be there on Thursday. I don't plan to have a separate presentation per se, but I'll try to bring something. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Aug 2 23:01:30 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 17:01:30 -0600 Subject: Native American verbs vs. nouns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Cleaning a few things up I found this unanswered inquiry from Rory Larson. On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 rlarson at unlnotes01.unl.edu wrote: > >> Definitions needed, preferably with examples: > >> > >> Head ... It occurs to me that I should just have referred Rory's request to the list. I'm probably not the person to be trying to offer a rapid sketch of modern syntactic theory and terminology. Some might question my ability to this for even ancient syntactic theory and terminology. Maybe Katherine or Ardis - maybe next Thursday. Anyway, if Rory is going to be there - I think Katherine is - I'll be glad to get the refresher course myself. John (Boyle) - you keep organizing syntax sessions - how about you? I think in the context of the list, at least, and given his intimacy with libraries that a few suggested references might be easiest ... > In any case, a listing of "head" relationships doesn't answer > my question: What is a "head" in essence? What chain of > reasoning leads us to the concept of a "head"? > > I don't have any problem with using the term "head" for the > noun in a noun phrase that all the determiners, adjectives, > prepositional phrases, relative clauses, genitives and > qualifying nouns attach to; it seems like a useful word here. > My issue is with extrapolating this to verb chains and > prepositions, etc. From munro at ucla.edu Sat Aug 2 23:46:13 2003 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 16:46:13 -0700 Subject: double inflection Message-ID: I'd like to know the current feeling of Siouan specialists about double inflection for subject in verbs like Lakhtoa Ibl?ble 'I left' (with two -bl- subject markers), which is cited in some theoretical literature on double inflection. Although I feel I have a handle on this descriptively I confess that I haven't thought further about the best analysis, and perhaps some of you have. Jason Riggle and I are preparing a paper on double plural inflection in Pima (a Uto-Aztecan language) where the words in question have clearly been analyzed as compounds, with each section receiving its own plural marking. Is there a compound analysis of the Siouan verbs? Thanks, Pam Pamela Munro, Linguistics, UCLA From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Sun Aug 3 01:06:07 2003 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 20:06:07 -0500 Subject: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference Message-ID: I also plan to be there for whatever happens on the 7th, and I've written up a kind of sketchy outline of issues in "juncture" that we might be able to use as a springboard for discussion. Looks like none of us is really doing a formal presentation for the "parasession", but the informal discussions are sometimes the best. I've got motel reservation starting the 7th, but will probably actually arrive on the evening of the 6th. Driving from Nebraska, so timing is iffy... Hope to run into you all at the motel on the 6th or 7th -- Catherine To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu cc: bcc: Subject: Re: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference Koontz John E Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 08/02/2003 04:39 PM Please respond to siouan On Wed, 30 Jul 2003, John Boyle wrote: > In addition, anyone interested in getting together on Thursday for a > mini-workshop on syntax let me know so we can find someplace (other > than the local coffee shop) to have it. I'll definitely be there on Thursday. I don't plan to have a separate presentation per se, but I'll try to bring something. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 3 01:10:10 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 19:10:10 -0600 Subject: double inflection In-Reply-To: <3F2C4D45.9040209@ucla.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Aug 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: > I'd like to know the current feeling of Siouan specialists about double > inflection for subject in verbs like Lakhtoa Ibl?ble 'I left' (with two > -bl- subject markers), which is cited in some theoretical literature on > double inflection. > > ... > > Is there a compound analysis of the Siouan verbs? A good reference here might be Allan Taylor's survey of the Siouan motion verbs, which is in IJAL. I think the year is (or was) 1976. There are a heck of a lot more compound froms than he lists, at least in individual languages, but he covers the core of the motion verb system. I believe that everyone considers these verbs to be compound (in this case, essentially reduplicated) in terms of a historical explanation. I don't know that it would be safe to claim that everyone does this in synchronic descriptions. I'm lamentably out of touch with the current (last 20-30 years?) literature on Dakotan morphology, in spite of Trudi Patterson and others' attempts to correct that deficiency. I think Trudi's dissertation would be one place to look. In general terms, Mississippi Valley languages do a lot of compounding of motion verbs and positional verbs, both as main verbs and as aspectual auxililaries, and in such compounds usually both elements are inflected, unless a causative is added to the mix and preempts the lower level inflection. There are also some non-motion lexical verbs that involve such compounds. We've been discussing gaN=dha 'to want', for example, and there are a number of others in Dhegiha languages. Diachronically these are often stable, but they do show some tendency to develop into either infixing or prefixing verbs with a single inflection. It's instructive to collect descriptions of the paradigm of hiyu from different souces, for example. Apart from essentially lexicalized compound forms like these there are also other kinds of double inflection. Less regular (syncopating) paradigms are often supplemented with a set of regular pronominals in front of the irregular ones, e.g., modern OP attaNbe, dhas^taNbe, daNba=i, aNdaNba=i (A1, A2, A3, A12 of 'see') with a-t-, dha-s^- in first and second person. IO and Winnebago do this pervasively in some paradigms. And everywhere the A1P2 portmanteau is almst always added over the A1 form of irregular stems, e.g., OP wikkaNbdha 'I desire you' < gaNdha 'to desire, wish'. Auxiliaries in general are usually separately inflected from the main verb, e.g., the Crow and Hidatsa future, or in OP that inflected positional that follows the future enclitic in many contexts. The OP negative (all Dhegiha negatives, in fact), has a sort of pseudo-inflection that seems to be made up of a fusions of an old auxiliary and the plural marker with the negative enclitic. Certain postverbal adverbial enclitics in OP also regularly require an inflected auxiliary to "support them," e.g., a-t-taNbe=m(aN)=az^i=xti=m-aN 'I really don't see it' in which a-t- and the two m- are first persons. Finally, in OP and other languages the dative, possessive, and reflexive paradigms of syncopating (irregular) stems exhibit a pattern involving inflection of both the underlying stem and the derivational prefix, e.g., for gaghe 'to make', the dative is eppaghe, dhes^kaghe, giagha=i, iNgagha=i, in which e and dhe are from the regular pronominals a and dha with contracted gi, and the underlying stem is also inflected, cf. the non-dative forms ppaghe, s^kaghe, gagha=i, aNgagha=i. In the possessives and reflexives the "inside" inflection of the first and second person alternates with an additional -k- in the third person. What you get is (reflexive of gaghe, sense 'make for self') akkippaghe, dhakkis^kaghe, kkikkagha=i, aNkkikkagha=i. This is relevant to an idea I've been exploring off and on in Omaha-Ponca, though it works for other Mississippi Valley Siouan langauges like Dakotan, of seeing verb forms as consisting (potentially, and actually pretty frequently in fact) of sequences of lower level forms. The rules of inflection and derivation apply to these lower level forms, though derivational processes often compress two lower level forms into a single one, e.g., by treating a lower level sequence of preverb and root as a single root when some prefixes are added. This scheme seems to keep me from going crazy trying to explain the rules of pronominalization and derivation, which is not the case if the compounds and other multi-stem forms are treated as single chunks. It also seems to help in predicting accentuation, at least in OP. I don't know whether this will help with plurals, as plural markers are the one thing that Siouan languages seem to feel you need only one of, no matter how many things are pluralized. JEK From kdshea at ku.edu Sun Aug 3 01:45:59 2003 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 20:45:59 -0500 Subject: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference Message-ID: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan ConferenceHi, John, and everyone, I'll be attending SACC and the mini-workshop on syntax on Thursday, and I'll be arriving around 2 pm Wednesday in Detroit from Kansas City, renting a car, and leaving from Detroit about 2pm on Sunday. (The reason I'm landing in Detroit and not Lansing is that I have a free ticket on Southwest Airlines that I would like to use.) If anyone needs a ride, please let me know, and I'll try to link up with you. I'll be staying at the Kellogg Center on campus, because I was unable to get the conference rate at the Clarion at the late date I called for reservations. Although I won't be giving a paper, I'm looking forward to seeing everyone and participating. Once you know how many to expect for the mini-workshop, is there a way that we can find out when and where it will be? Kathy Shea ----- Original Message ----- From: John Boyle To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 4:42 PM Subject: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference Hi everyone, I too would like to know what the schedule will look like. I only received a few (four) abstracts. I'm hoping we can do better than that. Could all those interested in presenting a paper send me a title (an abstract is optional but would be appreciated). In addition, could those attending but not presenting a paper let me know, so that we know about how many to expect. I would like to urge everyone to present something - remember we are a rather informal lot so it doesn't need to be polished. In addition, anyone interested in getting together on Thursday for a mini-workshop on syntax let me know so we can find someplace (other than the local coffee shop) to have it. Thanks, I look forward to hearing from MANY people. Best wishes, John Boyle -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From munro at ucla.edu Sun Aug 3 01:49:03 2003 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 18:49:03 -0700 Subject: double inflection Message-ID: John, Thanks so much for this extremely helpful survey of things I probably should have known! Of course this is not directly parallel to what we're looking at, but it's good to have other nice examples where compounds show double inflection of any kind. (In English, for example, they generally do not, with the exception of cases like fixer-uper, which is an unusual case.) Pam Koontz John E wrote: >On Sat, 2 Aug 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: > > >>I'd like to know the current feeling of Siouan specialists about double >>inflection for subject in verbs like Lakhtoa Ibl?ble 'I left' (with two >>-bl- subject markers), which is cited in some theoretical literature on >>double inflection. >> >>... >> >>Is there a compound analysis of the Siouan verbs? >> >> > >A good reference here might be Allan Taylor's survey of the Siouan motion >verbs, which is in IJAL. I think the year is (or was) 1976. There are a >heck of a lot more compound froms than he lists, at least in individual >languages, but he covers the core of the motion verb system. > >I believe that everyone considers these verbs to be compound (in this >case, essentially reduplicated) in terms of a historical explanation. I >don't know that it would be safe to claim that everyone does this in >synchronic descriptions. I'm lamentably out of touch with the current >(last 20-30 years?) literature on Dakotan morphology, in spite of Trudi >Patterson and others' attempts to correct that deficiency. I think >Trudi's dissertation would be one place to look. > >In general terms, Mississippi Valley languages do a lot of compounding of >motion verbs and positional verbs, both as main verbs and as aspectual >auxililaries, and in such compounds usually both elements are inflected, >unless a causative is added to the mix and preempts the lower level >inflection. There are also some non-motion lexical verbs that involve >such compounds. We've been discussing gaN=dha 'to want', for example, and >there are a number of others in Dhegiha languages. Diachronically these >are often stable, but they do show some tendency to develop into either >infixing or prefixing verbs with a single inflection. It's instructive to >collect descriptions of the paradigm of hiyu from different souces, for >example. > >Apart from essentially lexicalized compound forms like these there are >also other kinds of double inflection. Less regular (syncopating) >paradigms are often supplemented with a set of regular pronominals in >front of the irregular ones, e.g., modern OP attaNbe, dhas^taNbe, daNba=i, >aNdaNba=i (A1, A2, A3, A12 of 'see') with a-t-, dha-s^- in first and >second person. IO and Winnebago do this pervasively in some paradigms. >And everywhere the A1P2 portmanteau is almst always added over the A1 form >of irregular stems, e.g., OP wikkaNbdha 'I desire you' < gaNdha 'to >desire, wish'. > >Auxiliaries in general are usually separately inflected from the main >verb, e.g., the Crow and Hidatsa future, or in OP that inflected >positional that follows the future enclitic in many contexts. > >The OP negative (all Dhegiha negatives, in fact), has a sort of >pseudo-inflection that seems to be made up of a fusions of an old >auxiliary and the plural marker with the negative enclitic. Certain >postverbal adverbial enclitics in OP also regularly require an inflected >auxiliary to "support them," e.g., a-t-taNbe=m(aN)=az^i=xti=m-aN 'I really >don't see it' in which a-t- and the two m- are first persons. > >Finally, in OP and other languages the dative, possessive, and reflexive >paradigms of syncopating (irregular) stems exhibit a pattern involving >inflection of both the underlying stem and the derivational prefix, e.g., >for gaghe 'to make', the dative is eppaghe, dhes^kaghe, giagha=i, >iNgagha=i, in which e and dhe are from the regular pronominals a and dha >with contracted gi, and the underlying stem is also inflected, cf. the >non-dative forms ppaghe, s^kaghe, gagha=i, aNgagha=i. In the possessives >and reflexives the "inside" inflection of the first and second person >alternates with an additional -k- in the third person. What you get is >(reflexive of gaghe, sense 'make for self') akkippaghe, dhakkis^kaghe, >kkikkagha=i, aNkkikkagha=i. > >This is relevant to an idea I've been exploring off and on in Omaha-Ponca, >though it works for other Mississippi Valley Siouan langauges like >Dakotan, of seeing verb forms as consisting (potentially, and actually >pretty frequently in fact) of sequences of lower level forms. The rules >of inflection and derivation apply to these lower level forms, though >derivational processes often compress two lower level forms into a single >one, e.g., by treating a lower level sequence of preverb and root as a >single root when some prefixes are added. This scheme seems to keep me >from going crazy trying to explain the rules of pronominalization and >derivation, which is not the case if the compounds and other multi-stem >forms are treated as single chunks. It also seems to help in predicting >accentuation, at least in OP. > >I don't know whether this will help with plurals, as plural markers are >the one thing that Siouan languages seem to feel you need only one of, no >matter how many things are pluralized. > >JEK > > > > > -- ---- Pamela Munro Professor, Department of Linguistics, UCLA UCLA Box 951543 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 USA http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/linguistics/people/munro/munro.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mary.marino at usask.ca Sun Aug 3 04:49:15 2003 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Mary Marino) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 22:49:15 -0600 Subject: 23rd Annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi John, I will be attending the conference. i will arrive in Lansing at 9:18 pm on Wednesday and am booked at the Clarion. I want to attend the session on syntax on Thursday. I promised Linda Cumberland that I would collect a set of handouts for her, since she will be unable to come, so I want to attend whatever sessions we have. Will there be a central place for messages, etc. at the Clarion? Mary Marino At 04:42 PM 7/30/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Hi everyone, > >I too would like to know what the schedule will look like. I only >received a few (four) abstracts. I'm hoping we can do better than >that. Could all those interested in presenting a paper send me a title >(an abstract is optional but would be appreciated). In addition, could >those attending but not presenting a paper let me know, so that we know >about how many to expect. I would like to urge everyone to present >something - remember we are a rather informal lot so it doesn't need to be >polished. In addition, anyone interested in getting together on Thursday >for a mini-workshop on syntax let me know so we can find someplace (other >than the local coffee shop) to have it. > >Thanks, > >I look forward to hearing from MANY people. > >Best wishes, > >John Boyle From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Sun Aug 3 14:42:44 2003 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 08:42:44 -0600 Subject: double inflection In-Reply-To: <3F2C4D45.9040209@ucla.edu> Message-ID: I haven't thought about this theoretically -- conjugational irregularities don't bother me much when I can see a vague historical justification for them, and allow for a combination of speakers' ability to analogize and to memorize as they acquire their language. People DO know the historical forms of their language because they memorize them as units. Below are a few comments on the historical/etymological facts, however, most of which you probably already know fully. For most of the doubly inflected Lakota verbs, there is a clear compound etymology and inflection of both parts, but there are lots of wrinkles. Iblable is from iyaya, the compound of i and ya, with the unexpected reduplication of ya 'go', but the paradigm is not in accord with the compound analysis. THe 'start' verbs are all compounds of 'arrive + move', so this i must be 'arrive going', and historically we would expect *wa'ible for this form -- but it doesn't happen that way. A similar i- initial verb is iyanka 'run' (wa'imnake 'I run'), but the inflection is in a different place there. The only candidate I know of for that i- is the same 'to arrive going', and that doesn't make semantic sense there. Older records for hiyu 'start coming' conjugate it wahibu, but no one does that any more as far as I know (today it's wahiyu). That of course is a compound of hi and u. The suus forms of the compound verbs have a further quirk that's unique to them as far as I know: glicu 'start coming home' adds an extra -ya- syllable between the parts when there's an inflectional prefix, so you say both wagliyaku and yagliyaku. Clearly this is NOT double inflection, but I have no idea what it is. Similarly khigla (note that this one is NOT reduplicated, though it's the compound of the suus forms of i and ya), is wakhiyagle. The same -ya- shows up with the a- prefix that marks collective subject for motion verbs: 'they started for home here' is agliyaku. This could be double inflection with epenthetic /y/, of course, and may be the source of the analogy for the other forms, but I'm not sure I want to advocate that analysis. On the other hand, there are lots of compounds that do not inflect both parts -- those with the -ya causative and the -shi 'command' come immedidately to mind, as well as all the nonce (syntactic?) constructions with motion verbs second and things like eya-lowan '(s)he said, singing', which I think would be eya-walowan in the first person, though that should be verfied before being cited. I don't think this is much help, but it's fun to reveiw these problems once in a while. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Sat, 2 Aug 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: > I'd like to know the current feeling of Siouan specialists about double > inflection for subject in verbs like Lakhtoa Ibl?ble 'I left' (with two > -bl- subject markers), which is cited in some theoretical literature on > double inflection. > > Although I feel I have a handle on this descriptively I confess that I > haven't thought further about the best analysis, and perhaps some of you > have. > > Jason Riggle and I are preparing a paper on double plural inflection in > Pima (a Uto-Aztecan language) where the words in question have clearly > been analyzed as compounds, with each section receiving its own plural > marking. > > Is there a compound analysis of the Siouan verbs? > > Thanks, > Pam > > Pamela Munro, Linguistics, UCLA > From munro at ucla.edu Sun Aug 3 15:19:45 2003 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 08:19:45 -0700 Subject: double inflection Message-ID: Dear David and Siouanists, This is actually interesting in terms of my question, since although there are two inflections in this compound, as you explain it, the two inflections both occur in the ya part, not the i part with which it is compounded. But normally we do not see double inflection in reduplicated verbs, even monosyllabic ones. (In Jason's and my data, the unexpected double marking is in fact reduplication, but I don't see any other immediate connections.) Thanks again so much to you and John for clarifying helping me understand this extremely interesting data. Pam ROOD DAVID S wrote: >I haven't thought about this theoretically -- conjugational irregularities >don't bother me much when I can see a vague historical justification for >them, and allow for a combination of speakers' ability to analogize and to >memorize as they acquire their language. People DO know the historical >forms of their language because they memorize them as units. Below are a >few comments on the historical/etymological facts, however, most of which >you probably already know fully. > >For most of the doubly inflected Lakota verbs, there is a clear compound >etymology and inflection of both parts, but there are lots of wrinkles. >Iblable is from iyaya, the compound of i and ya, with the unexpected >reduplication of ya 'go', but the paradigm is not in accord with the >compound analysis. THe 'start' verbs are all compounds of 'arrive + >move', so this i must be 'arrive going', and historically we would expect >*wa'ible for this form -- but it doesn't happen that way. A similar i- >initial verb is iyanka 'run' (wa'imnake 'I run'), but the inflection is in >a different place there. The only candidate I know of for that i- is the >same 'to arrive going', and that doesn't make semantic sense there. >Older records for hiyu 'start coming' conjugate it wahibu, but no one does >that any more as far as I know (today it's wahiyu). That of course is a >compound of hi and u. The suus forms of the compound verbs have a further >quirk that's unique to them as far as I know: glicu 'start coming home' >adds an extra -ya- syllable between the parts when there's an inflectional >prefix, so you say both wagliyaku and yagliyaku. Clearly this is NOT >double inflection, but I have no idea what it is. Similarly khigla (note >that this one is NOT reduplicated, though it's the compound of the suus >forms of i and ya), is wakhiyagle. The same -ya- shows up with the a- >prefix that marks collective subject for motion verbs: 'they started for >home here' is agliyaku. This could be double inflection with epenthetic >/y/, of course, and may be the source of the analogy for the other forms, >but I'm not sure I want to advocate that analysis. > On the other hand, there are lots of compounds that do not inflect >both parts -- those with the -ya causative and the -shi 'command' come >immedidately to mind, as well as all the nonce (syntactic?) constructions >with motion verbs second and things like eya-lowan '(s)he said, singing', >which I think would be eya-walowan in the first person, though that should >be verfied before being cited. > >I don't think this is much help, but it's fun to reveiw these problems >once in a while. > >David > > >David S. Rood >Dept. of Linguistics >Univ. of Colorado >295 UCB >Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >USA >rood at colorado.edu > >On Sat, 2 Aug 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: > > > >>I'd like to know the current feeling of Siouan specialists about double >>inflection for subject in verbs like Lakhtoa Ibl?ble 'I left' (with two >>-bl- subject markers), which is cited in some theoretical literature on >>double inflection. >> >>Although I feel I have a handle on this descriptively I confess that I >>haven't thought further about the best analysis, and perhaps some of you >>have. >> >>Jason Riggle and I are preparing a paper on double plural inflection in >>Pima (a Uto-Aztecan language) where the words in question have clearly >>been analyzed as compounds, with each section receiving its own plural >>marking. >> >>Is there a compound analysis of the Siouan verbs? >> >>Thanks, >>Pam >> >>Pamela Munro, Linguistics, UCLA >> >> >> > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 3 16:05:39 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 10:05:39 -0600 Subject: double inflection In-Reply-To: <3F2D2811.4030708@ucla.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: > This is actually interesting in terms of my question, since although > there are two inflections in this compound, as you explain it, the two > inflections both occur in the ya part, not the i part with which it is > compounded. But normally we do not see double inflection in reduplicated > verbs, even monosyllabic ones. (In Jason's and my data, the unexpected > double marking is in fact reduplication, but I don't see any other > immediate connections.) David and Pam make a very good point here, and I am embarassed to have overlooked it. I do know one instance of reduplicated inflection in Omaha-Ponca, which involves the verb 'to say often'. Unfortunately, the only available form is a second person, which is es^e's^e (cf. 'to say' A1 ehe', A2 es^e', A3 a=i, A12 aNdhaN=i). Hypothetically, the first person might be *ehe'he. I'm not sure how a third person would be handled without suppletion. In fact, most 'say often' examples are based on the habitual enclitic =s^na ~ =hnaN ~ =na. This is a complex verb, morphologically, with suppletive stems, but the first and second persons seem to go back to *e=...he, so this is something like e=s^-he-s^-he. Since the h-stems are few and of limited productivity (this being an exception) and involve complicating preverbs in cases like this, it's hard to conceive that speakers handle inflection generatively. I think this very complexity is what allows the inflection to be included in the reduplication, so that we have es^e's^e rather than, perhaps *es^ehe. From BARudes at aol.com Sun Aug 3 16:18:44 2003 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 12:18:44 EDT Subject: double inflection Message-ID: Pam, I know you asked about the Siouan languages, but I thought you might want to know that double, as well as triple inflexion for subject also occurs in Catawba. In Catawba, subject inflexion is marked either by a prefix (which may appear as an initial consonant mutation on "irregular" verbs) or by a suffix. Prefix dat'aNre: 'I wash', yat'aNre: 'you (sg.) wash' (stem: -taN-) Mutation n'aNtire: 'I set it', y'aNtire: 'you (sg.) set' (stem: -waNt-) Suffix p'iksire: 'I fly', p'ikyire: 'you (sg.) fly' (stem: -pik-) When the double inflexion consists of two prefixes, it is clear that the verb form derives from a compound. ca:n'a:nire: 'I am going to see', ya:y'a:nire: 'you (sg.) are going to see' (stems: -ra:- 'go', -ka:ni- 'see') However, when the double inflexion consists of a prefix and a suffix, a "compound" explanation is not so clear. n'a?sire: 'I get it', y'a?yire: 'you (sg.) get it' (stem: -ra- 'get'; compare n?re: 'I am getting it', y'are: 'you (sg.) are getting it') Triple inflected verbs are even less susceptible to a compound analysis. cun'a?sire: 'I pick it up', yuy'a?yire: 'you (sg.) pick it up' (stem: -ru- 'by hand (instrumental prefix), -ra- 'get', -?- 'momentous aspect suffix') What appears to have happened was that, at some earlier date, the Catawba language possesses an auxiliary that was an independent word from the main verb, and both the main verb and the auxiliary could be inflected for subject. Later, the auxiliary fused to the main verb and became the suffixes (of which there can be many) on the main verb. Even after this occurred, the auxiliary retained its independent inflexion for subject which is now appears as a suffix on the verb. Blair From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 3 16:40:24 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 10:40:24 -0600 Subject: double inflection In-Reply-To: <3F2D2811.4030708@ucla.edu> Message-ID: In spite of my sally about Siouan languages not including multiple plurals, I've thought of a counter example. Those pseudo-inflected negatives in Dhegiha (or at least Omaha-Ponca) involve a plural form that can be pluralized. The forms are A1 =m=az^i perhaps from =maN=az^i, A2 singular and A3 singular obviative =az^i, plural and A3 singular proximate =b=az^i < =bi=az^i. The regular plural can follow this: dhahu'ni=b=az^i=*bi*=ama 'it did not draw him into its mouth, they say' hna'tha=b=az^i=*i*=a 'why do you (all) not eat' wiaN'bahaN=b=az^i=s^te=aN=*i* 'we do not know at all' (we know something not soever) aNdaN'ba=b=az^i=xti=aN=*i* 'we have not seen him at all' (we have very not seen him) It seems that the cases where =b=az^i occurs with nothing following might be (third singular) proximates with no following enclitics or cases followed by additional independent verbs that preempt the plural/proximate marking. I'm not sure that accounts for all the exceptions to double marking. It may provide a sort of test for enclisis, since declaratives - which Dorsey always writes as a separate word - don't seem to condition multiple plurals (but imperatives and interrogatives do). From munro at ucla.edu Sun Aug 3 16:46:05 2003 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 09:46:05 -0700 Subject: double inflection Message-ID: This is actually quite exciting, though not yet (I believe) immediately relevant to the UA case (though perhaps Jason will see a connection). What the reduplication of person marking in short verbs like ya reminds me more of is a case from Muskogean. The Muskogean languages, as Bob and perhaps many others of you know, have a series of verbal ablauts called grades which are used to mark aspect, e.g. the hn-grade of Chickasaw basha 'to be operated on' (I'll write nasalized vowels with capital letters): basha 'he is operated on' bah?sha 'he gets operated on a lot' sabasha 'I am operated on' sabah?sha 'I get operated on a lot' What reminds me of the Ibl?ble case is what happens with a verb like isso 'to hit': ih?sso 'he hits him a lot' sah?sso 'he hits me a lot' Grade formation generally operates on the penultimate vowel of the verb stem. But with a verb like sa-sso 'he hists me', that penultimate vowel is an inflectional prefix, so grade formation operates on it. Thus what seems to me to be the parallel to the reduplication of person-marked ya: normally these morphological rules want to operate on stems, but if they are dealing with a short stem they may target an inflectional marker. Pam Koontz John E wrote: >On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: > > >>This is actually interesting in terms of my question, since although >>there are two inflections in this compound, as you explain it, the two >>inflections both occur in the ya part, not the i part with which it is >>compounded. But normally we do not see double inflection in reduplicated >>verbs, even monosyllabic ones. (In Jason's and my data, the unexpected >>double marking is in fact reduplication, but I don't see any other >>immediate connections.) >> >> > >David and Pam make a very good point here, and I am embarassed to have >overlooked it. I do know one instance of reduplicated inflection in >Omaha-Ponca, which involves the verb 'to say often'. Unfortunately, the >only available form is a second person, which is es^e's^e (cf. 'to say' A1 >ehe', A2 es^e', A3 a=i, A12 aNdhaN=i). > >Hypothetically, the first person might be *ehe'he. I'm not sure how a >third person would be handled without suppletion. In fact, most 'say >often' examples are based on the habitual enclitic =s^na ~ =hnaN ~ =na. > >This is a complex verb, morphologically, with suppletive stems, but the >first and second persons seem to go back to *e=...he, so this is something >like e=s^-he-s^-he. Since the h-stems are few and of limited productivity >(this being an exception) and involve complicating preverbs in cases like >this, it's hard to conceive that speakers handle inflection generatively. >I think this very complexity is what allows the inflection to be included >in the reduplication, so that we have es^e's^e rather than, perhaps >*es^ehe. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 3 17:59:21 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 11:59:21 -0600 Subject: double inflection In-Reply-To: <3F2D3C4D.2060009@ucla.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: > What reminds me of the Ibl?ble case is what happens with a verb like > isso 'to hit': > > ih?sso 'he hits him a lot' > sah?sso 'he hits me a lot' > > Grade formation generally operates on the penultimate vowel of the verb > stem. But with a verb like sa-sso 'he hists me', that penultimate vowel > is an inflectional prefix, so grade formation operates on it. Thus what > seems to me to be the parallel to the reduplication of person-marked ya: > normally these morphological rules want to operate on stems, but if they > are dealing with a short stem they may target an inflectional marker. What interests me about this case is that it shows grade formation operating in some sense, anyway) after (perosnal) inflection. That's like the way that dative formation operates after (personal) inflection in Omaha-Ponca. Theorists generally hold that inflection follows derivation. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 3 18:58:58 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 12:58:58 -0600 Subject: double inflection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > For most of the doubly inflected Lakota verbs, there is a clear compound > etymology and inflection of both parts, but there are lots of wrinkles. > Iblable is from iyaya, the compound of i and ya, with the unexpected > reduplication of ya 'go', but the paradigm is not in accord with the > compound analysis. The 'start' verbs are all compounds of 'arrive + > move', so this i must be 'arrive going', and historically we would expect > *wa'ible for this form -- but it doesn't happen that way. As I said, I'm pretty embarrassed to have forgotten that this reduplication is unique to this stem in Dakotan! The parallel form in OP is idhe, generally rendered 'had gone' in Dorsey's texts. It does have a reduplicated form: i=dhadha. It appears in the third person as ai=adha=i (ai=adhadha=i). Inflected: A12 aNgai=adha=i. I don't have any other personal forms, but the inflection of the vertitive khi=gdhe is dhakhi=dhagdha=i 'you had gone back'. There is a vertitive gi=gdhe (agi=agdha=i) rendered 'arrive'. I suppose it's possible that Dakotan simply has an inherited iterative reduplication in lieu of the basic form in this slot. That would imply that it formerly had both forms in all relevant slots. The problem with that analysis is that then we'd expect *waiblaye (*waibleye?). Another alternative that has occurred to me was that something like *ai=aya might be reanalyzed as (a)iyaya. > A similar i- initial verb is iyanka 'run' (wa'imnake 'I run'), but the > inflection is in a different place there. The only candidate I know > of for that i- is the same 'to arrive going', and that doesn't make > semantic sense there. However, the inflectional pattern is more what I'd expect, based on hiyu below, and on Dhegiha. > Older records for hiyu 'start coming' conjugate it wahibu, but no one > does that any more as far as I know (today it's wahiyu). That of > course is a compound of hi and u. The suus forms of the compound > verbs have a further quirk that's unique to them as far as I know: > glicu 'start coming home' adds an extra -ya- syllable between the > parts when there's an inflectional prefix, so you say both wagliyaku > and yagliyaku. Clearly this is NOT double inflection, but I have no > idea what it is. Similarly khigla (note that this one is NOT > reduplicated, though it's the compound of the suus forms of i and ya), > is wakhiyagle. The same -ya- shows up with the a- prefix that marks > collective subject for motion verbs: 'they started for home here' is > agliyaku. This could be double inflection with epenthetic /y/, of > course, and may be the source of the analogy for the other forms, but > I'm not sure I want to advocate that analysis. This looks like a fossil remnant of the a-prefix on the third person, maybe wagliwaku/yagliyaku/agli(y)aku resulted in the first person changing to match the second and third person. > On the other hand, there are lots of compounds that do not inflect > both parts -- those with the -ya causative and the -shi 'command' come > immedidately to mind, In these cases I'd argue that the causative (and the -shi 'command' form in Dakotan) are among the rare cases where the higher predicate preempts the inflection of the lower verb. > as well as all the nonce (syntactic?) constructions with motion verbs > second and things like eya-lowan '(s)he said, singing', which I think > would be eya-walowan in the first person, though that should be > verfied before being cited. This is something that as far as I can recall has no parallel in Dhegiha. From munro at ucla.edu Sun Aug 3 21:39:54 2003 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 14:39:54 -0700 Subject: double inflection Message-ID: Wow -- interesting! Thanks! Koontz John E wrote: >In spite of my sally about Siouan languages not including multiple >plurals, I've thought of a counter example. Those pseudo-inflected >negatives in Dhegiha (or at least Omaha-Ponca) involve a plural form that >can be pluralized. The forms are A1 =m=az^i perhaps from =maN=az^i, A2 >singular and A3 singular obviative =az^i, plural and A3 singular proximate >=b=az^i < =bi=az^i. The regular plural can follow this: > >dhahu'ni=b=az^i=*bi*=ama 'it did not draw him into its mouth, they say' > >hna'tha=b=az^i=*i*=a 'why do you (all) not eat' > >wiaN'bahaN=b=az^i=s^te=aN=*i* 'we do not know at all' (we know something >not soever) > >aNdaN'ba=b=az^i=xti=aN=*i* 'we have not seen him at all' (we have very not >seen him) > >It seems that the cases where =b=az^i occurs with nothing following might >be (third singular) proximates with no following enclitics or cases >followed by additional independent verbs that preempt the plural/proximate >marking. I'm not sure that accounts for all the exceptions to double >marking. It may provide a sort of test for enclisis, since declaratives - >which Dorsey always writes as a separate word - don't seem to condition >multiple plurals (but imperatives and interrogatives do). > > > > > > From munro at ucla.edu Sun Aug 3 21:51:38 2003 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 14:51:38 -0700 Subject: double inflection Message-ID: Agreed, absolutely. I should have said that. The same would be true of the Siouan forms. That's what makes these so interesting to me. If the morphology does not have a long enough base to do its thing it can look ahead to inflection and borrow something. Pam Koontz John E wrote: >On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: > > >>What reminds me of the Ibl?ble case is what happens with a verb like >>isso 'to hit': >> >>ih?sso 'he hits him a lot' >>sah?sso 'he hits me a lot' >> >>Grade formation generally operates on the penultimate vowel of the verb >>stem. But with a verb like sa-sso 'he hists me', that penultimate vowel >>is an inflectional prefix, so grade formation operates on it. Thus what >>seems to me to be the parallel to the reduplication of person-marked ya: >>normally these morphological rules want to operate on stems, but if they >>are dealing with a short stem they may target an inflectional marker. >> >> > >What interests me about this case is that it shows grade formation >operating in some sense, anyway) after (perosnal) inflection. That's like >the way that dative formation operates after (personal) inflection in >Omaha-Ponca. Theorists generally hold that inflection follows derivation. > >JEK > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 3 22:22:19 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 16:22:19 -0600 Subject: double inflection In-Reply-To: <3F2D83EA.1080108@ucla.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: > Agreed, absolutely. I should have said that. The same would be true of > the Siouan forms. That's what makes these so interesting to me. If the > morphology does not have a long enough base to do its thing it can look > ahead to inflection and borrow something. > > > >What interests me about this case is that it shows grade formation > >operating in some sense, anyway) after (perosnal) inflection. That's like > >the way that dative formation operates after (personal) inflection in > >Omaha-Ponca. Theorists generally hold that inflection follows derivation. I'm not sure if I worded this clearly. Were you agreeing that it looked like - in this case - the grade formation process would have to be said to follow inflection in the process of creation of the form? That was the only way I could get the case of the Omaha-Ponca dative to make sense to me. In other words, while my instincts agree with my education here, and I'd expect all derivation to precede all inflection, the grade formation process you describe here, and at least the case of the OP reduplication of 'to say' look like they require one derivation to follow inflection. The Omaha-Ponca dative is actually a better example, because it's pervasive, and not an isolated case, but it could be argued that dative is an inflectional process, rather than a derivational one, though I think the instincts of most Siouanists would be that it is derivational, or at least "stem forming." The problem in Omaha-Ponca is just that it's difficult to explain the forms exhibited by applying inflection to the dative "stem." In some cases the merger of the locative or pronominal or sequence of them with gi- seems to skip syllables that precede its ostensible location. I haven't been able to come up with any arguments that OP dative is derivational as opposed to inflectional. It seems pretty productive, and, though there are a couple of cases where the English verbs expressing the base and the dative forms are different - e.g., gaNze/giaNze 'demonstrate/teach', I don't know that these are especially unpreditable and idiomatic. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 3 22:32:23 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 16:32:23 -0600 Subject: double inflection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > > The same -ya- shows up with the a- prefix that marks > > collective subject for motion verbs: 'they started for home here' is > > agliyaku. This could be double inflection with epenthetic /y/, of > > course, and may be the source of the analogy for the other forms, but > > I'm not sure I want to advocate that analysis. > > This looks like a fossil remnant of the a-prefix on the third person, > maybe wagliwaku/yagliyaku/agli(y)aku resulted in the first person changing > to match the second and third person. I slipped up on editing this. I meant to say that I was here agreeing with David that -ya- could be a reflex of the collective subject a-. A cognate appears in OP in plural verbs of motion and with proximate verbs. The fact that this independent form of pluralization - hey another case of two plurals - also occurs with proximates is one of the things that convinced me that proximate marking doesn't originate with an independent marker, but asa specialziation of the plural marker. JEK From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon Aug 4 01:57:28 2003 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 19:57:28 -0600 Subject: double inflection In-Reply-To: <3F2D3C4D.2060009@ucla.edu> Message-ID: Pam, I don't have any of my reference books here at home as I write this, but John's mention of the verb 'to say' triggers a vague memory in my mind to the effect that Lak. does the same thing with that one. 'Say' is eya, conjugated ephe, ehe for 'I say', 'you say' (the only verb left that uses those inlflections). I am pretty sure I've seen it reduplicated and conjugated on both halves: ephaphe, ehahe. If you want to use that "fact" in your paper, however, you must give me a chance to verify it. For what it's worth, too, you should note that the 'uN(k) 'we' prefix doesn't participate in any of this; it's only the older inflections that have these irregularities. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon Aug 4 02:14:25 2003 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 20:14:25 -0600 Subject: double inflection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't think I follow this for the Lak. case, at least for iblable. It seems to me the derivation (reduplication) has to precede the inflection. How else would you get the non-ablauted initial syllable of the reduplication? David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, Koontz John E wrote: > On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: > > Agreed, absolutely. I should have said that. The same would be true of > > the Siouan forms. That's what makes these so interesting to me. If the > > morphology does not have a long enough base to do its thing it can look > > ahead to inflection and borrow something. > > > > > >What interests me about this case is that it shows grade formation > > >operating in some sense, anyway) after (perosnal) inflection. That's like > > >the way that dative formation operates after (personal) inflection in > > >Omaha-Ponca. Theorists generally hold that inflection follows derivation. > > I'm not sure if I worded this clearly. Were you agreeing that it looked > like - in this case - the grade formation process would have to be said to > follow inflection in the process of creation of the form? That was the > only way I could get the case of the Omaha-Ponca dative to make sense to > me. In other words, while my instincts agree with my education here, and > I'd expect all derivation to precede all inflection, the grade formation > process you describe here, and at least the case of the OP reduplication of > 'to say' look like they require one derivation to follow inflection. > > The Omaha-Ponca dative is actually a better example, because it's > pervasive, and not an isolated case, but it could be argued that dative is > an inflectional process, rather than a derivational one, though I think > the instincts of most Siouanists would be that it is derivational, or at > least "stem forming." The problem in Omaha-Ponca is just that it's > difficult to explain the forms exhibited by applying inflection to the > dative "stem." In some cases the merger of the locative or pronominal or > sequence of them with gi- seems to skip syllables that precede its > ostensible location. > > I haven't been able to come up with any arguments that OP dative is > derivational as opposed to inflectional. It seems pretty productive, and, > though there are a couple of cases where the English verbs expressing the > base and the dative forms are different - e.g., gaNze/giaNze > 'demonstrate/teach', I don't know that these are especially unpreditable > and idiomatic. > > JEK > From munro at ucla.edu Mon Aug 4 02:33:14 2003 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 19:33:14 -0700 Subject: double inflection Message-ID: You interpreted what I said correctly, John. I believe that Muskogrean grade formation is derivational, though perhaps (since it is aspectual) not everyone would agree with me. In Chickasaw it is unpredictable both in terms of its occurrence and, often, its meaning. But of course these are tricky questions. Pam Koontz John E wrote: >On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: > > >>Agreed, absolutely. I should have said that. The same would be true of >>the Siouan forms. That's what makes these so interesting to me. If the >>morphology does not have a long enough base to do its thing it can look >>ahead to inflection and borrow something. >> >> >>>What interests me about this case is that it shows grade formation >>>operating in some sense, anyway) after (perosnal) inflection. That's like >>>the way that dative formation operates after (personal) inflection in >>>Omaha-Ponca. Theorists generally hold that inflection follows derivation. >>> >>> > >I'm not sure if I worded this clearly. Were you agreeing that it looked >like - in this case - the grade formation process would have to be said to >follow inflection in the process of creation of the form? That was the >only way I could get the case of the Omaha-Ponca dative to make sense to >me. In other words, while my instincts agree with my education here, and >I'd expect all derivation to precede all inflection, the grade formation >process you describe here, and at least the case of the OP reduplication of >'to say' look like they require one derivation to follow inflection. > >The Omaha-Ponca dative is actually a better example, because it's >pervasive, and not an isolated case, but it could be argued that dative is >an inflectional process, rather than a derivational one, though I think >the instincts of most Siouanists would be that it is derivational, or at >least "stem forming." The problem in Omaha-Ponca is just that it's >difficult to explain the forms exhibited by applying inflection to the >dative "stem." In some cases the merger of the locative or pronominal or >sequence of them with gi- seems to skip syllables that precede its >ostensible location. > >I haven't been able to come up with any arguments that OP dative is >derivational as opposed to inflectional. It seems pretty productive, and, >though there are a couple of cases where the English verbs expressing the >base and the dative forms are different - e.g., gaNze/giaNze >'demonstrate/teach', I don't know that these are especially unpreditable >and idiomatic. > >JEK > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From munro at ucla.edu Mon Aug 4 02:46:10 2003 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 19:46:10 -0700 Subject: double inflection Message-ID: I believe that John is suggesting that the order is Inflection (person marking: stem-initial y of ya replaced by bl etc.: ya > bla) Reduplication (bla > blabla) Then my guess would be that ablaut (final a > e) follows this, applying as usual to the final syllable of the ablauting stem (blabla > blable). Certainly if ablaut came before reduplication, we'd get bleble. Perhaps there are very short ablauting verbs that give such a result (I can't think of any). But I bet such verbs do not start with y! If ablaut is inflectional, this example shows is that ablaut must a later inflectional process than person marking. (This is thus another case which in which the two reduplicated elements are less than perfectly similar to each other.) I hope this makes sense. I am after all only a closet Siouanist wannabe.... Thanks again to all of you for your incredibly thought-provoking help. Pam ROOD DAVID S wrote: >I don't think I follow this for the Lak. case, at least for iblable. It >seems to me the derivation (reduplication) has to precede the inflection. >How else would you get the non-ablauted initial syllable of the >reduplication? > >David S. Rood >Dept. of Linguistics >Univ. of Colorado >295 UCB >Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >USA >rood at colorado.edu > >On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, Koontz John E wrote: > > > >>On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: >> >> >>>Agreed, absolutely. I should have said that. The same would be true of >>>the Siouan forms. That's what makes these so interesting to me. If the >>>morphology does not have a long enough base to do its thing it can look >>>ahead to inflection and borrow something. >>> >>> >>>>What interests me about this case is that it shows grade formation >>>>operating in some sense, anyway) after (perosnal) inflection. That's like >>>>the way that dative formation operates after (personal) inflection in >>>>Omaha-Ponca. Theorists generally hold that inflection follows derivation. >>>> >>>> >>I'm not sure if I worded this clearly. Were you agreeing that it looked >>like - in this case - the grade formation process would have to be said to >>follow inflection in the process of creation of the form? That was the >>only way I could get the case of the Omaha-Ponca dative to make sense to >>me. In other words, while my instincts agree with my education here, and >>I'd expect all derivation to precede all inflection, the grade formation >>process you describe here, and at least the case of the OP reduplication of >>'to say' look like they require one derivation to follow inflection. >> >>The Omaha-Ponca dative is actually a better example, because it's >>pervasive, and not an isolated case, but it could be argued that dative is >>an inflectional process, rather than a derivational one, though I think >>the instincts of most Siouanists would be that it is derivational, or at >>least "stem forming." The problem in Omaha-Ponca is just that it's >>difficult to explain the forms exhibited by applying inflection to the >>dative "stem." In some cases the merger of the locative or pronominal or >>sequence of them with gi- seems to skip syllables that precede its >>ostensible location. >> >>I haven't been able to come up with any arguments that OP dative is >>derivational as opposed to inflectional. It seems pretty productive, and, >>though there are a couple of cases where the English verbs expressing the >>base and the dative forms are different - e.g., gaNze/giaNze >>'demonstrate/teach', I don't know that these are especially unpreditable >>and idiomatic. >> >>JEK >> >> >> > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 4 04:47:35 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 22:47:35 -0600 Subject: double inflection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > I don't have any of my reference books here at home as I write > this, but John's mention of the verb 'to say' triggers a vague memory in > my mind to the effect that Lak. does the same thing with that one. 'Say' > is eya, conjugated ephe, ehe for 'I say', 'you say' (the only verb left > that uses those inflections). I am pretty sure I've seen it reduplicated > and conjugated on both halves: ephaphe, ehahe. If you want to use that > "fact" in your paper, however, you must give me a chance to verify it. This is interesting. I looked in Buechel, following up on David's suggestion and the entry is there (146a), sure enough. I didn't realize this formation was present outside of Omaha-Ponca. Buechel gives eya'ya 'to say often' (vs. e'yaya 'to take or have taken with one' = a + iyaya?; eye'ya 'to make say, to say something'), inflected epha'pha, uNkeyayapi. Riggs lists the same form (118b) and adds ehaha as the second person (Buechel omits these). I checked and couldn't find comparable forms in Osage, IO, or Winnebago. I didn't search exhaustively, however. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 4 05:13:15 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 23:13:15 -0600 Subject: double inflection In-Reply-To: <3F2DC8F2.8000202@ucla.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: > I believe that John is suggesting that the order is > > Inflection (person marking: stem-initial y of ya replaced by bl etc.: ya > > bla) > Reduplication (bla > blabla) > > Then my guess would be that ablaut (final a > e) follows this, applying > as usual to the final syllable of the ablauting stem (blabla > blable). Truthfully I hadn't gotten that far, but this seems reasonable. In Dhegiha you get the a-grade in reduplications, anyway - se : sasa; etc. > Certainly if ablaut came before reduplication, we'd get bleble. Perhaps > there are very short ablauting verbs that give such a result (I can't > think of any). But I bet such verbs do not start with y! I'm thinking I've seen "propagated ablaut" in Hidatsa or maybe Mandan, but it may have been in obstruent + resonant clusters where it would be Dorsey's Law-like epenthesis. I think both yA 'to go' and =yA 'to cause' ablaut. But we're dealing with the only reduplication of either (the first) that I know of. Well, I guess the root of e=yA 'to say' also ablauts and we have a reduplicaiton of it now. > If ablaut is inflectional, this example shows is that ablaut must a > later inflectional process than person marking. (This is thus another > case which in which the two reduplicated elements are less than > perfectly similar to each other.) In my analysis of phonological words as consisting of one or more smaller "morphological" words, given that ablaut is conditioned by one such morphological word (an enclitic) following another (a verb stem), it would be natural to have ablaut (within a phonological word) follow inflection (within a morphological word). This would also tend to follow under Bob Rankin's argument (originally made by Wes Jones) that ablaut orignates from (and can often still be explained as) C(V1)=V2... => C=V2... collapses across the boundary of two morphological words. I'm putting things here in my terms, but clearly my terms are no more than a sort of reductio ad absurdam of the standard Siouanist position vis-a-vis enclitics, and a sort of crypto-lexicalist approach to boot. > I hope this makes sense. I am after all only a closet Siouanist > wannabe.... Oh, I think you might be out of the closet and fully qualified. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 4 22:04:13 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:04:13 -0600 Subject: FW: double inflection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>From Carolyn Quintero: On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Carolyn Quintero wrote: > Hi John, > Don't forget OS es^e's^e 'you keep saying that' from e[h]e 'say', which you > mentioned earlier for Ponca. In Os it's on the second person that shows > this, apparently, although you indicated you had found 1s in OP. This A2s > example is the only reduplication I've found involving pronominal subject > marking. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 4 22:47:57 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:47:57 -0600 Subject: FW: double inflection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Carolyn Quintero wrote: > There are a couple of examples such as wawe'dhe 'he's seeing things' from > iidhe 'see'. I don't know the details with 'see', but verbs in idha- (cf. Dakotan iya-) and i- have wawe- for 'them'. This looks like wa-wa-i- or maybe wa-a-wa-i-. Most i-only verbs just have we- < wa-i-, but, for example, ighagha 'to laugh at' leads to waweghagha=i 'they are laughers at them'. JEK From jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu Tue Aug 5 00:54:55 2003 From: jpboyle at midway.uchicago.edu (John Boyle) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:54:55 -0500 Subject: 23rd SACLC Program Message-ID: Hi All, Here is the tentative program for the Siouan and Caddoan languages conference for this year in East Lansing, MI. In addition, for the Syntax workshop, I thought we could meet in the hotel lobby at 9:30 Thursday the 7th and walk over to C-312 Wells (which is also the conference venue). If it is free we can just meet there. Do this sound okay? Below is the program, I have allotted 25 minuet time slots for each paper but since there are only seven papers I'm sure people can go over time if they need to. Since there were so few papers this year I have only scheduled one day worth of talks. Have I missed anyone who wanted to present a paper? If so let me know and we can certainly add it. Thanks, and I'll see you in East Lansing. best wishes and safe travels, John The 23rd Annual Siouan-Caddoan Conference Michigan State University, East Lansing C-312 Wells August 2003 Friday, August 8th 9:30 - 10:00 Registration and Sign In 10:00 - 10:25 Noun Modification in Lakota Bruce Ingham Reader in Arabic Linguistic Studies, SOAS 10:30 - 10:55 Deixis in Crow Randolph Graczyk St. Charles Mission 11:00 - 11:25 Attrition and Innovation in Hidatsa Clause Structure John P. Boyle University of Chicago 11:30 - 11:55 Change and Continuity: Two Versions of an Omaha Text Catherine Rudin Wayne State 12:00 - 1:30 Lunch 1:30 - 1:55 A New Information Marker in Omaha-Ponca [Dhegiha Siouan] John E. Koontz University of Colorado, Boulder 2:00 - 2:25 The Eclectic Chair: Osage/Omaha Substitutions in a 'Kansa' Inscription Robert Rankin University of Kansas 2:30 - 2:55 Same-Turn Self-Repair Initiation in Wichita Conversation Armik Mirzayan University of Colorado at Boulder 3:00 - 3:25 Business Meeting -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kdshea at ku.edu Tue Aug 5 01:07:55 2003 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:07:55 -0500 Subject: Attn. Dhegiha specialists. Message-ID: Attn. Dhegiha specialists.I would have responded sooner, but for some reason I didn't receive any messages at my KU e-mail address until last Saturday when 75 messages on the Siouan list came through! It took me a while to read them all. I'll try to comment here on responses sent under the above heading and those under RE: any more chairs?, RE: a wish?, and so forth. My first reaction, since we've recently had the dedication of the Dole Institure for Politics here on campus and Kansas symbols are fresh in my mind, was that the inscription might be an attempt to render the Kansas state motto (since 1877) into Kansa from Latin: "ad astra per aspera," usually translated 'to the stars through difficulties.' Of course, the Kansa version wouldn't have to have the word for "star" in it, but might mean something like "to the farthest reaches through striving." Unfortunately, I'm in Lawrence, Kansas, at the moment, and my copy of La Flesche's Osage dictionary is in Ponca City, along with most of my other Dhegiha materials. The only resource I have at hand is Fletcher and La Flesche's _The Omaha Tribe_. This morning I did call my 90-year-old Ponca language consultant, Uncle Parrish, who had just gottten back to his home in Oklahoma from a trip. I spelled out the syllables of the inscription to him, which he painstakingly wrote down, and then I tried to pronounce it to him in various ways, without it resulting in his being able to recognize very much. He did remark that we Poncas would say "maNthiN" instead of "maNniN." (I told him that the words could be Kansa, Osage, or Omaha-Ponca, since we think that La Flesche himself or his writing system had probably been the source for the writing.) Naturally, it was very difficult for us to hear well and to communicate about this over the phone. I'll try to address some of the comments raised earlier. Yes, the "TH" indicates that at least some of the inscription must be Omaha-Ponca or Osage, which I understand has edh intervocalically and word-initially, as in the Osage /kkodha/ 'friend' that Carolyn Quintero pointed out. And, by the way, I have seen the word /kkodha/ (written "kola," as I recall) written in at least one Ponca song that was shown and played on tape to me several years ago by Henry Collins, a well-known Ponca singer and drum maker and a fluent (middle-aged) speaker of Ponca, who lives here in Lawrence. He was the person who initially provided me with the contacts for my consultants in Oklahoma, giving me the names of four of his uncles. He has been recording and writing down some of the Ponca songs for his children and, without my asking, just pulled them out to show me and play for me. I remember remarking at the time on the word "kola" 'friend' and his telling me that it was an alternate word for /khaage/ that sometimes ocurs in Ponca songs. Considering the fact that the Poncas are traditionally the singers for the Osages at their dances even today, and that the Osages received (some Poncas say stole!) their Ilonshka ceremonial dance from the Poncas (from the Ponca Hethushka), it's not surprising that /kkodha/ occurs in Ponca songs. Although I haven't visited with him recently, I think Uncle Henry (Collins) might be a knowlegeable person to ask about this inscription. Speaking of songs, I noticed that many of the songs written in _The Omaha Tribe_ are addressed to a group, in the second person plural. It makes me wonder if the inscription could be a quote from a well-known song, or even Curtis's family song, if he had one. In that case, the word "MO-NI" could have the second person reading 'you walk.' On the other hand, I have observed that [dh] sometimes alternates with [n] in the pronunciation of /dh/ in Ponca speech, although the only example I can think of right now might exemplify a difference between Ponca and Omaha pronunciation, as in the word for the trickster /is^tinikhe/ (Ponca) versus /is^tidhiNkhe/ (Omaha). And by the way, I have never heard /s^/ or /h/ before n in r-stem verbs pronounced as the realization of a second-person prefix or before /naN/ and /namaN/, the habitual marker, in modern Ponca, as also John Koontz says he hasn't in Omaha. The main issue that I would like to raise is why we haven't considered the possibility that "C" could be La Flesche's c-cedilla without the cedilla (to look more "American"?) and so could ambiguously represent /s/ or /z/, as La Flesche does consistently in _The Omaha Tribe_ and elsewhere (e.g., in ",ci" for both /si/ 'foot' and /zi/ 'yellow'), despite his saying in the "Phonetic Guide" in the opening pages that c-cedilla "has the sound of th in thin." I'm not prepared to say what meaning a reading of "C" as /s/ or /z/ would give the inscription, but, if we don't have to interpret "C" as the lax stop written "G," we are free to assume that the two "K's" represent lax stops, rather than inconsistently reading the first "K" as tense (as it would have to be if the word is /kkodha/ 'friend') and the second "K" as lax (more likely than if it were the tense stop of the first-person form /kkobdha/ 'I want, wish' if the verb in the inscription is in fact /koNdha/, inflected with the plural/proximate ending /i/. I'm somewhat hampered by not being able to refer to La Flesche's Osage dictionary, but as Carolyn has pointed out, he does use "g" in the dictionary for the (unvoiced) lax velar stop in Osage and "k" with a dot underneath for the tense velar stop. La Flesche inconsistently represents the tense stops of Osage in _The Omaha Tribe_, where he doesn't use subscript dots (with the exception of one place that John noticed?), for example, /kk/ as "k" in "WakoN'da" ('God') on page 65 and "gk" in "Gka'washiNka" 'Little horse' (a personal name) on page 64, unless I haven't noticed a consistent pattern for his written Osage. As far as the length of the first stem vowel in Osage /koNdha/ (Ponca "gaNaNtha" ' to wish, want, desire,' or in one instance, 'to try to become' as in, "Gini gaNaNtha(a)!" 'Try to get better!' (imperative, female speech), written in the practical orthography adopted by the Ponca Nation), I think that it probably is long (/oNoN/). At least it is in the Ponca counterpart, I would say. John raised this question about length. I've been transcribing some stories recently, and in all the person forms, most of which have the accent on the first--or stem--syllable, I seem to hear a long vowel. Even in the I-you form, where the accent shifts to the portmanteau person prefix /wi-/, I think I hear a long /aNaN/: /wi'kkaNaNbdha/. However, in the inclusive form that occurs in one of the stories, I definitely hear a long vowel: /aNgaNaN'dhai/ 'we want.' This could be explained by the presence of an infixed inclusive person marker /aN-/ in this doubly inflecting verb, which I think is present, but even in the third person, where the accent often shifts to the following stem vowel in verbs, it remains on the first, as shown in John's example using /gaNaN'dha/ of a type 1 g-stem active verb at his website under "Morphology," an indication that the first stem vowel is long, having "attracted" the accent: gaN'=dha=i 'he/she heard it' (sic). A few stray thoughts that I had were that the two "KO's" could be a deictic or a discourse marker, such as gaN, and that "-SHE" might be the /-s^e/ that occurs after second-person plural verbs in Ponca, Kansa, and I guess the other Dhegiha languages. I'm afraid, though that my ruminations don't bring us any closer to a meaning for the inscription. I just thought I'd offer my observations. Kathy ----- Original Message ----- From: Rankin, Robert L To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 3:49 PM Subject: Attn. Dhegiha specialists. I have received the appended request from one of the curators for the U.S. Senate to translate an inscription he believes to be in the Kaw language. It includes a photograph of the inscription, which is on a chair presented to Charles Curtis when he was Vice President of the United States from 1929-1933. Curtis was part Kaw. I hope the Colorado listserver permits photo attachments. If it doesn't come through and you'd like a copy, let me know. I thought I'd give all of you a crack at it. I'll be trying to translate it as well. It's pretty clearly written in a Dhegiha dialect. It may be Kaw, but written down by someone using the Osage dictionary as a source (since there was no Kaw dictionary, Osage would be the closest source of lexicon in published form). It looks as though it has "TH" where Kaw would have [y] (both now and in the 1800's). You'll want to look at the photo rather than the curator's rendering of it, as someone has scratched in a small, raised "n" above a vowel to indicate nasalization. It's easily visible near the top. In other instances, a syllable-final is written for nasalization. Whoever wrote it pretty clearly had access to La Flesche's Osage Dictionary, as they write "real" as /xtsi/. Any ideas appreciated. Naturally, I'll share credit where credit is due when I send in my rendering. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Doerner, Rich (Secretary) Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 10:15 AM To: Rankin at KU.EDU Subject: Translation Dear Mr. Robert Rankin: Ms. Virginia Wulfkuhle, Public Archeologist at Kansas, recommended that I write to you. I am the Museum Specialist in the Office of Senate Curator conducting research on a chair presented to Vice President Charles Curtis. I am interested in translating the following Native American Indian (Kaw ?) word(s) that appear on a circular medallion in the center of the backrest on the carved walnut chair. The letters may be out of order. I have enclosed a digital image of the medallion for your translation.. KO-THA-U-CA-SHE / THI-CE-XTSI MO-NI / KO-ON-THAIHA-IN In addition to the above, the chair is also inscribed "From the Original Curtis Boys and Matthew Quay Glaser". I am reading numerous books on Curtis, reviewing New York Times articles, and conducting research at the Library of Congress to learn more about them. THANK YOU in advance for any help you may be able to provide. Richard Doerner Museum Specialist Office of the Senate Curator Room S-411, U.S. Capitol Building Washington, D.C. 20510-7102 <> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Aug 5 03:05:11 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:05:11 -0600 Subject: 23rd SACLC Program In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, John! I see that we have a SACC this year instead of just a SC, which is nice! JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Aug 5 04:04:57 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:04:57 -0600 Subject: Attn. Dhegiha specialists. In-Reply-To: <001401c35aee$01dbbc80$1509ed81@9afl3> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Kathleen Shea wrote: > My first reaction, since we've recently had the dedication of the Dole > Institure for Politics here on campus and Kansas symbols are fresh in > my mind, was that the inscription might be an attempt to render the > Kansas state motto (since 1877) into Kansa from Latin: "ad astra per > aspera," usually translated 'to the stars through difficulties.' Of > course, the Kansa version wouldn't have to have the word for "star" in > it, but might mean something like "to the farthest reaches through > striving." .... The motto idea is excellent, though I don't think this text can represent the Kansas state motto. I wonder if the Kaw tribe has a motto? I think some plain old detective work without linguistics in mind might help here. I suspect that there must be a newspaper article somewhere on this chair, or some correspondence. I'd guess LaFlesche's BAE correspondence would be relevant if the time frame was correct. However, I think he was retired by this point. > ... The only resource I have at hand is Fletcher and La Flesche's > _The Omaha Tribe_. This morning I did call my 90-year-old Ponca > language consultant, Uncle Parrish, who had just gottten back to his > home in Oklahoma from a trip. I spelled out the syllables of the > inscription to him, which he painstakingly wrote down, and then I > tried to pronounce it to him in various ways, without it resulting in > his being able to recognize very much. He did remark that we Poncas > would say "maNthiN" instead of "maNniN." (I told him that the words > could be Kansa, Osage, or Omaha-Ponca, since we think that La Flesche > himself or his writing system had probably been the source for the > writing.) Naturally, it was very difficult for us to hear well and to > communicate about this over the phone. I think this tends to confirm the difficulties with MA-NI being a second person, and also the general Osage tenor of the vocabulary. > I'll try to address some of the comments raised earlier. Yes, the > "TH" indicates that at least some of the inscription must be > Omaha-Ponca or Osage, which I understand has edh intervocalically and > word-initially, as in the Osage /kkodha/ 'friend' that Carolyn > Quintero pointed out. And, by the way, I have seen the word /kkodha/ > (written "kola," as I recall) written in at least one Ponca song that > was shown and played on tape to me several years ago by Henry Collins, > ... I remember remarking at the time on the word "kola" 'friend' and > his telling me that it was an alternate word for /khaage/ that > sometimes ocurs in Ponca songs. ... This is interesting! I've noticed that the vocabulary and even morphology of songs is rather eclectic. Things occur there that are rare in narrated text, like the postposition =ha, and there are old or maybe foreign words, as Kathy suggests. There are even songs that have such different sets of sentence final markings that they seem to be adapted from other SIouan languages. I remember one song with eska as a sentence final marker. I think I remember Bob remarking once that this was the Kaw quotative. > ... It makes me wonder if the inscription could be a quote from a > well-known song, or even Curtis's family song, if he had one. ... Another excellent suggestion. It seems to me that many song genres and modern Hedhus^ka songs especially are very brief, and lacking in elaborate use of conjunctions. This could be a the entire lyric of a song, though I have no idea if it fits teh requirements of a lyric. > "MO-NI" could have the second person reading 'you walk.' On the other > hand, I have observed that [dh] sometimes alternates with [n] in the > pronunciation of /dh/ in Ponca speech, although the only example I can > think of right now might exemplify a difference between Ponca and > Omaha pronunciation, as in the word for the trickster /is^tinikhe/ > (Ponca) versus /is^tidhiNkhe/ (Omaha). This is one of my standard examples, certainly! > And by the way, I have never heard /s^/ or /h/ before n in r-stem > verbs pronounced as the realization of a second-person prefix or > before /naN/ and /namaN/, the habitual marker, in modern Ponca, as > also John Koontz says he hasn't in Omaha. No, exactly. That was one of the surprising things about the s^n vs. n example Rory offered. However, I think Rory has probably now heard more spoken Omaha from more various speakers than I ever did. > The main issue that I would like to raise is why we haven't considered > the possibility that "C" could be La Flesche's c-cedilla without the > cedilla (to look more "American"?) and so could ambiguously represent > /s/ or /z/, as La Flesche does consistently in _The Omaha Tribe_ and > elsewhere (e.g., in ",ci" for both /si/ 'foot' and /zi/ 'yellow'), > despite his saying in the "Phonetic Guide" in the opening pages that > c-cedilla "has the sound of th in thin." In regard to that c-cedilla = th, I think (a) I recall reading a note from Dorsey that the LaFlesche famil pronounced s as theta, though it has been a while since I thought about that, and (b) I know that Alice Fletcher definitely wrote th for s (thee for si 'foot', for example) in transcribing the names and various incidental vocabulary for the residents of "The Village of Make-Believe Whitemen." I suspect this is a dialect feature of that village/band. An additional factor here is that Dorsey (and the BAE?) used c-cedilla to represent theta. Anyone strongly influenced by the LaFlesche orthography is going to be saddled with the unfortunate c-cedilla convention, and so I definitely considered what the implications might be of the letter in the inscriptsions being C, whether it represented an apical fricative or a velar stop. It was at this point that I examined the image Bob supplied closely and concluded that all the potential C's were actually G's. Kathy's observations on the procs and cons of the C's being K's concur exactly with my thoughts on the matter. > ... La Flesche inconsistently represents the tense stops of Osage in > _The Omaha Tribe_, where he doesn't use subscript dots (with the > exception of one place that John noticed?), for example, /kk/ as "k" > in "WakoN'da" ('God') on page 65 and "gk" in "Gka'washiNka" 'Little > horse' (a personal name) on page 64, unless I haven't noticed a > consistent pattern for his written Osage. I think that Gk is used only in certain name lists, probably prepared at a particular point in time and inserted in place in the text. The comments on language in Chapter 15 includes p. 606 bpixoN as the first person of bixoN 'to break with the weight of the body', which suggests that this part was done at about the same time, though, for example, the same page has pahe- for ppahe 'hill' instead of bpahe. The list of river names pp. 89-94 was the one section of The Oaha Tribe that I found in my quick scan of the LaFlesche papers at the NAA. It did use dots under k for kk, etc., though these dots do not appear in the text in The Omaha Tribe. I assume this list was not actually considered to form part of the manuscript for The Omaha Tribe, if that still exists, but was a separate creation that got included in it and was subsequently filed separately. This definitely tells us that LaFlesche (and Fletcher) used several different orthographies at various times, and that the usage in The Omaha Tribe involves several different systems combined without any great attempt at consistancy. In addition, some of the systems were applied without much consistancy within themselves. The system in the Osage Dictionary is the "final" system, the most developed, and the most consistantly applied. > As far as the length of the first stem vowel in Osage /koNdha/ (Ponca > "gaNaNtha" ' to wish, want, desire,' or in one instance, 'to try to > become' as in, "Gini gaNaNtha(a)!" 'Try to get better!' (imperative, > female speech), written in the practical orthography adopted by the > Ponca Nation), I think that it probably is long (/oNoN/). At least it > is in the Ponca counterpart, I would say. John raised this question > about length. At this point I'm somewhat inclined to see KO^NONTHA as an attempt to write something like the Omaha kkaN aNdhaNdha 'I hope' form, but then the following I of IHA would have to mean that the object was plural i.e., 'I hope (for) these things', which doesn't seem to fit with the top part being the complement. Of course, I assume that the 'I hope' form aimed at is the Osage equivalent, whatever that would be, not the specific Omaha-Ponca form. Over the years I have grown cautious, and I no longer assume Osage will turn out to be Omaha-Ponca pronounced with an Osage accent. On some points it is grammatically and lexically quite different, as this inscription has so far tended to confirm and illustrate. Thus, essentially only MA-NI is recognizable in Omaha-Ponca terms and the N seems to render the form incorrect to the ears of Omaha-Ponca speakers anyway. The rest of the lexicon seems to be Osage forms that do not exist in the same meanings in ordinary Omaha or Ponca speech. > I've been transcribing some stories recently, and in all the person > forms, most of which have the accent on the first--or stem--syllable, > I seem to hear a long vowel. Even in the I-you form, where the accent > shifts to the portmanteau person prefix /wi-/, I think I hear a long > /aNaN/: /wi'kkaNaNbdha/. However, in the inclusive form that occurs > in one of the stories, I definitely hear a long vowel: > /aNgaNaN'dhai/ 'we want.' This could be explained by the presence of > an infixed inclusive person marker /aN-/ in this doubly inflecting > verb, which I think is present, but even in the third person, where > the accent often shifts to the following stem vowel in verbs, it > remains on the first, as shown in John's example using /gaNaN'dha/ of > a type 1 g-stem active verb at his website under "Morphology," an > indication that the first stem vowel is long, having "attracted" the > accent: gaN'=dha=i 'he/she heard it' (sic). While very interested in the length observations, I find that accent is generally confined to the first simple form in a compound stem, so I wouldn't expect it to advanced onto dha in gaN'=dha=i, even without length. This is Omaha-Ponca's version of the "no accent on enclitics" rule in Dakotan. There are a few peculiar exceptions. If it weren't for examples like wi'kkaNaN=bdha, it would be easier to see length as secondary and conditioned by accent. From wablenica at mail.ru Thu Aug 7 22:40:37 2003 From: wablenica at mail.ru (Wablenica) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 02:40:37 +0400 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wonder what can be the origin of ASB puza/buza "cat" http://fpcctalkindian.nativeweb.org/n_audio/n_alphabet/buza.wma Is 'pusida' in some D-dialects a cognate of buza or a borrowing of English "pussy" + dim. -da(n) ? Thank you. Constantine From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Aug 8 13:09:37 2003 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:09:37 -0500 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: <1012259266.20030808024037@mail.ru> Message-ID: I imagine Dave Costa might be jumping in here as soon as the West Coast wakes up. I always defer to him in these matter. However, "puza/buza" looks like it could be a borrowing of a reflex in some Algonquian language of Proto-Algonquian */peSiwa/ 'lynx, wildcat' (S = sh) Michael McCafferty On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Wablenica wrote: > I wonder what can be the origin of ASB puza/buza "cat" > > http://fpcctalkindian.nativeweb.org/n_audio/n_alphabet/buza.wma > > Is 'pusida' in some D-dialects a cognate of buza or a borrowing of English "pussy" + dim. > -da(n) ? > > Thank you. > Constantine > > > "I'm trying to think but nothing happens" -Curly From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Fri Aug 8 14:49:36 2003 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:49:36 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am pretty sure that this word for 'cat', which recurs in many North American languages with minor variations, is English 'puss' or 'pussy'. Why the /s/ is voiced in ASB I don't know -- Linda? Certainly "pusila/pusida" is from that source. So ASB is "cognate" in a strange sort of way, in that both words derive from the same lending language. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > I imagine Dave Costa might be jumping in here as soon as the West Coast > wakes up. I always defer to him in these matter. However, "puza/buza" > looks like it could be a borrowing of a reflex in some Algonquian language > of Proto-Algonquian */peSiwa/ 'lynx, wildcat' (S = sh) > > Michael McCafferty > > > > On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Wablenica wrote: > > > I wonder what can be the origin of ASB puza/buza "cat" > > > > http://fpcctalkindian.nativeweb.org/n_audio/n_alphabet/buza.wma > > > > Is 'pusida' in some D-dialects a cognate of buza or a borrowing of English "pussy" + dim. > > -da(n) ? > > > > Thank you. > > Constantine > > > > > > > > > "I'm trying to think but nothing happens" > > -Curly > > > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Fri Aug 8 15:55:38 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:55:38 -0700 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: As this list's resident lurking Algonquianist I don't have too much to add, except that indeed, the Proto-Algonquian word for 'bobcat' was */pe$iwa/ ($ = s-hacek). It has an impeccable Algonquian pedigree (no pun intended), but it's even closer to English 'pussy' in certain daughter languages, such as Penobscot /p at so/ (@ = schwa). In the language that would have given it to Dakota, namely Ojibwe, it's /bizhiw/. best, Dave Costa ---------- >From: ROOD DAVID S >To: Koontz John E >Cc: Wablenica >Subject: Re: ASB puza >Date: Fri, Aug 8, 2003, 7:49 am > > > I am pretty sure that this word for 'cat', which recurs in many North > American languages with minor variations, is English 'puss' or 'pussy'. > Why the /s/ is voiced in ASB I don't know -- Linda? Certainly > "pusila/pusida" is from that source. So ASB is "cognate" in a strange > sort of way, in that both words derive from the same lending language. > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > >> I imagine Dave Costa might be jumping in here as soon as the West Coast >> wakes up. I always defer to him in these matter. However, "puza/buza" >> looks like it could be a borrowing of a reflex in some Algonquian language >> of Proto-Algonquian */peSiwa/ 'lynx, wildcat' (S = sh) >> >> Michael McCafferty >> >> >> >> On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Wablenica wrote: >> >> > I wonder what can be the origin of ASB puza/buza "cat" >> > >> > http://fpcctalkindian.nativeweb.org/n_audio/n_alphabet/buza.wma >> > >> > Is 'pusida' in some D-dialects a cognate of buza or a borrowing of > English "pussy" + dim. >> > -da(n) ? >> > >> > Thank you. >> > Constantine >> > >> > >> > From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Fri Aug 8 16:16:00 2003 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (Heike =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=F6deker?=) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 18:16:00 +0200 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Fri Aug 8 17:04:16 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:04:16 -0700 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: Well, I can't speak for Siouan, but in Algonquian it's not uncommon for the old 'bobcat' word *pe$iwa to end up meaning plain old 'cat'. This is at least the case for Miami pin$iwa and Kickapoo pesia (tho not Shawnee or Ojibwe). Given the morphological transparency of *meh$ipe$iwa ('big bobcat'), it might not be of Proto-Algonquian or even Proto-Central Algonquian vintage. Moreover, I'm not convinced panthers existed in the original Proto-Algonquian homeland. In Central Algonquian words for 'panther', one often sees forms that reference the animal's long tail or long body, such as Shawnee keenwaaloweeta ('one who has a long tail'), Miami kinoosaawia, and Fox kenwaasoweewa. best, Dave Costa I think it pretty unlikely for lynxes (lynx canadiensis and lynx rufus, both designated by PCA *pe?iwa, BF nat??yo, occasionally also occuring with initial change: nit??yo) to end up in the same biotaxon as domestic cats, for which A mostly uses the same loan already mentioned by David Rood (BF poos, PC poosiis-, poosiy-, poosiiw-, also from French minoos-). However, there is a second ? quite uncharming ? etymon PC kaasakees "glutton; cat" < PCA *kaa?akeensa (anachronistically glossed just "cat" instead of "wolverine" in Hewson, A computer-generated dictionary of Proto-Algonquian, p. 53 #0857). What may be interesting to note is that is that many NAN languages derive the word for "puma" from "lynx/bobcat" (BF omahkat??yo, PCA *me'?ipe?iwa "puma; Great Lynx, Underwater Manito" as in Nakoda ig^mu-thaNka, Dhegiha iGdh?N-seN-sn?de "long-tail-bobcat"). A differentiation between Canadian lynx vs. bobcats is rare (bobcat as "spotted lynx": Miami-Illinois wiikwee-pinaiwa, Minnesota-Ojibwe gidagaa-bizhiw, BF k??hstsipimi-nat??yo) ? as are overlapping habitats... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Fri Aug 8 17:38:41 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:38:41 -0700 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: A very minor point, but the wiikwee- in Miami-Illinois wiikwee-pin$iwa 'lynx' doesn't mean 'spotted'; I don't know what it does mean, but 'spotted' in Miami-Illinois is keetaki-. David A differentiation between Canadian lynx vs. bobcats is rare (bobcat as "spotted lynx": Miami-Illinois wiikwee-pinaiwa, Minnesota-Ojibwe gidagaa-bizhiw, BF k??hstsipimi-nat??yo) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shanwest at uvic.ca Fri Aug 8 19:28:39 2003 From: shanwest at uvic.ca (Shannon West) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:28:39 -0700 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: <1012259266.20030808024037@mail.ru> Message-ID: >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu >[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of Wablenica >Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 3:41 PM >To: Koontz John E >Subject: ASB puza > > >I wonder what can be the origin of ASB puza/buza "cat" I've always assumed it was a borrowing of 'pussy'. I've heard the diminuitive form 'buzi' as well, and that sorta cemented it for me. Also, iirc, there's a reduplicated form 'busbuza', which would explain the voiced consonant. Shannon From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Aug 9 13:19:44 2003 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 08:19:44 -0500 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting David Costa : > As this list's resident lurking Algonquianist I don't have too much to add, > except that indeed, the Proto-Algonquian word for 'bobcat' was */pe$iwa/ ($ > = s-hacek). It has an impeccable Algonquian pedigree (no pun intended), but > it's even closer to English 'pussy' in certain daughter languages, such as > Penobscot /p at so/ (@ = schwa). In the language that would have given it to > Dakota, namely Ojibwe, it's /bizhiw/. > > best, > > Dave Costa > As this list's non-resident (homeless) yet lurking Algonquianist, I'd have to question whether in fact Ojibwa donated the term to Dakota. Certainly a possibility but not necessarily a foregone conclusion. Michael McCafferty > > ---------- > >From: ROOD DAVID S > >To: Koontz John E > >Cc: Wablenica > >Subject: Re: ASB puza > >Date: Fri, Aug 8, 2003, 7:49 am > > > > > > > I am pretty sure that this word for 'cat', which recurs in many North > > American languages with minor variations, is English 'puss' or 'pussy'. > > Why the /s/ is voiced in ASB I don't know -- Linda? Certainly > > "pusila/pusida" is from that source. So ASB is "cognate" in a strange > > sort of way, in that both words derive from the same lending language. > > > > David S. Rood > > Dept. of Linguistics > > Univ. of Colorado > > 295 UCB > > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > > USA > > rood at colorado.edu > > > > On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > > >> I imagine Dave Costa might be jumping in here as soon as the West Coast > >> wakes up. I always defer to him in these matter. However, "puza/buza" > >> looks like it could be a borrowing of a reflex in some Algonquian > language > >> of Proto-Algonquian */peSiwa/ 'lynx, wildcat' (S = sh) > >> > >> Michael McCafferty > >> > >> > >> > >> On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Wablenica wrote: > >> > >> > I wonder what can be the origin of ASB puza/buza "cat" > >> > > >> > http://fpcctalkindian.nativeweb.org/n_audio/n_alphabet/buza.wma > >> > > >> > Is 'pusida' in some D-dialects a cognate of buza or a borrowing of > > English "pussy" + dim. > >> > -da(n) ? > >> > > >> > Thank you. > >> > Constantine > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Aug 9 13:23:09 2003 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 08:23:09 -0500 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting David Costa : > Well, I can't speak for Siouan, but in Algonquian it's not uncommon for the > old 'bobcat' word *pe$iwa to end up meaning plain old 'cat'. This is at > least the case for Miami pin$iwa and Kickapoo pesia (tho not Shawnee or > Ojibwe). > > Given the morphological transparency of *meh$ipe$iwa ('big bobcat'), it > might not be of Proto-Algonquian or even Proto-Central Algonquian vintage. > Moreover, I'm not convinced panthers existed in the original > Proto-Algonquian homeland. The Proto-Algonquian homeland is about as fixed as flowing water. In more naive times Siebert placed it in southern Ontario around Georgian Bay; Goddard has recently correctly repositioned "west of Lake Superior," but meaning what?--somewhere between Duluth and Hokkaido? In any event, the Proto- Algonquians would no doubt have had contact with the mountain lion since it's original habitat included all of what is now southern Canada. In Central Algonquian words for 'panther', one > often sees forms that reference the animal's long tail or long body, such as > Shawnee keenwaaloweeta ('one who has a long tail'), Miami kinoosaawia, and > Fox kenwaasoweewa. > > best, > > Dave Costa > This is true. What's curious about all this is that while Proto-Algonquain /*meh$ipe$iwa/ 'big bobcat' is the term for the chthonic deity known in English as the Underwater Panther, it is rather the longness of things, the long-tail of the mountain lion, and the long nature of other animals such as weasels and snakes, that are constellated in the domain of the Underwater Panther. How the short-tailed, squat-bodied bobcat got mixed up in this circle is truly a curiosity. Michael McCafferty > > I think it pretty unlikely for lynxes (lynx canadiensis and lynx rufus, both > designated by PCA *pesiwa, BF nat??yo, occasionally also occuring with > initial change: nit??yo) to end up in the same biotaxon as domestic cats, > for which A mostly uses the same loan already mentioned by David Rood (BF > poos, PC poosiis-, poosiy-, poosiiw-, also from French minoos-). However, > there is a second ? quite uncharming ? etymon PC kaasakees "glutton; cat" < > PCA *kaasakeensa (anachronistically glossed just "cat" instead of > "wolverine" in Hewson, A computer-generated dictionary of Proto-Algonquian, > p. 53 #0857). > > What may be interesting to note is that is that many NAN languages derive > the word for "puma" from "lynx/bobcat" (BF omahkat??yo, PCA *me'sipesiwa > "puma; Great Lynx, Underwater Manito" as in Nakoda ig^mu-thaNka, Dhegiha > iGdh?N-seN-sn?de "long-tail-bobcat"). A differentiation between Canadian > lynx vs. bobcats is rare (bobcat as "spotted lynx": Miami-Illinois > wiikwee-pinaiwa, Minnesota-Ojibwe gidagaa-bizhiw, BF k??hstsipimi-nat??yo) ? > as are overlapping habitats... > > > > From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Sat Aug 9 14:36:16 2003 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (Heike =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=F6deker?=) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 16:36:16 +0200 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: <1060435389.3f34f5bd61b98@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Sat Aug 9 14:59:46 2003 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (Heike =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=F6deker?=) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 16:59:46 +0200 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: <1060435184.3f34f4f0b72a8@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: At 08:19 09.08.03 -0500, mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: >As this list's non-resident (homeless) yet lurking Algonquianist, I'd have >to question whether in fact Ojibwa donated the term to Dakota. Certainly a >possibility but not necessarily a foregone conclusion. The problem I'm having with it is that then z^ would have been shifted to z without recognizable reason as the target language has both z^ snd z. The next best A lg. with a s/? merger would be Plains Cree, if it was about that... Anyone any ideas? All the best, Heike From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sat Aug 9 15:34:10 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 08:34:10 -0700 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: I was speaking imprecisely. I didn't mean to say that Ojibwe DID give the word to Dakotan; I meant that in my experience, when there appears to be borrowing back and forth between Dakotan and Algonquian (there isn't much), Ojibwe is the Algonquian language. As for this particular case, I'm perfectly prepared to believe Dakotan borrowed it from English. Dave > As this list's non-resident (homeless) yet lurking Algonquianist, I'd have > to question whether in fact Ojibwa donated the term to Dakota. Certainly a > possibility but not necessarily a foregone conclusion. > > Michael McCafferty > > >> As this list's resident lurking Algonquianist I don't have too much to add, >> except that indeed, the Proto-Algonquian word for 'bobcat' was */pe$iwa/ ($ >> = s-hacek). It has an impeccable Algonquian pedigree (no pun intended), but >> it's even closer to English 'pussy' in certain daughter languages, such as >> Penobscot /p at so/ (@ = schwa). In the language that would have given it to >> Dakota, namely Ojibwe, it's /bizhiw/. >> >> best, >> >> Dave Costa >> > > > >> >> ---------- >> >From: ROOD DAVID S >> >To: Koontz John E >> >Cc: Wablenica >> >Subject: Re: ASB puza >> >Date: Fri, Aug 8, 2003, 7:49 am >> > >> >> > >> > I am pretty sure that this word for 'cat', which recurs in many North >> > American languages with minor variations, is English 'puss' or 'pussy'. >> > Why the /s/ is voiced in ASB I don't know -- Linda? Certainly >> > "pusila/pusida" is from that source. So ASB is "cognate" in a strange >> > sort of way, in that both words derive from the same lending language. >> > >> > David S. Rood >> > Dept. of Linguistics >> > Univ. of Colorado >> > 295 UCB >> > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> > USA >> > rood at colorado.edu >> > >> > On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Michael Mccafferty wrote: >> > >> >> I imagine Dave Costa might be jumping in here as soon as the West Coast >> >> wakes up. I always defer to him in these matter. However, "puza/buza" >> >> looks like it could be a borrowing of a reflex in some Algonquian >> language >> >> of Proto-Algonquian */peSiwa/ 'lynx, wildcat' (S = sh) >> >> >> >> Michael McCafferty >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Wablenica wrote: >> >> >> >> > I wonder what can be the origin of ASB puza/buza "cat" >> >> > >> >> > http://fpcctalkindian.nativeweb.org/n_audio/n_alphabet/buza.wma >> >> > >> >> > Is 'pusida' in some D-dialects a cognate of buza or a borrowing of >> > English "pussy" + dim. >> >> > -da(n) ? >> >> > >> >> > Thank you. >> >> > Constantine >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > > From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Sat Aug 9 16:12:56 2003 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:12:56 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030809164356.00a72b50@pop3.netcologne.de> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Aug 2003, Heike [iso-8859-1] B?deker wrote: > At 08:19 09.08.03 -0500, mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > >As this list's non-resident (homeless) yet lurking Algonquianist, I'd have > >to question whether in fact Ojibwa donated the term to Dakota. Certainly a > >possibility but not necessarily a foregone conclusion. > > The problem I'm having with it is that then z^ would have been shifted to z > without recognizable reason as the target language has both z^ snd z. The > next best A lg. with a s/? merger would be Plains Cree, if it was about > that... Anyone any ideas? Don't forget about the highly productive sound-symbolism patterns with Siouan fricatives. Alveolars designate relatively small examples, alveo-palatals normal-sized, and velars are the augmentative grade, for both the voiced and voiceless series. Lakhota speakers today still play games with this, and we have major trouble reconstructing fricatives in medial position, especially in stative verbs and nouns, because the languages often disagree on which grade they've decided to make standard. Converting from z^ to z for a diminutive would be perfectly normal. However, I'm still advocating English as the lending language here, since the domestic cat is a European import, the word is widespread as a loan word, and the sound matches are a lot closer than those with the Algonquian candidate. David S. Rood Linguistics 295 UCB University of Colorado Boulder, CO 80309-0295 303-492-2747 From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sat Aug 9 16:54:12 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 09:54:12 -0700 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: >> Well, I can't speak for Siouan, but in Algonquian it's not uncommon for the >> old 'bobcat' word *pe$iwa to end up meaning plain old 'cat'. This is at least >> the case for Miami pin$iwa and Kickapoo pesia (tho not Shawnee or Ojibwe). > Well, probably people these days aren't very much better off than the > civilization junkies in our zoos who can't even tell a cheetah from a leopard, > not to speak of a leopard from a jaguar... It also might be English calque. Not necessarily. It's simply that once White settlers started pouring into the Great Lakes, the tribes would have started seeing bobcats much less often and European house cats much more often. Given that the two animals do look strikingly similar (much more than the panther would), and that they'd need a word for the house cat, the shift of 'bobcat' -> 'cat' is totally logical. So by the late 19th century, Miami speakers called cats /pin$iwa/ and indicated actual bobcats by adding the prenoun /nalaaohki/ 'wild' to the front of /pin$iwa/: /nalaaohki-pin$iwa/. The same semantic shift happened with the original Miami 'buffalo' word: when cows started appearing all over and buffalo started disappearing, the old 'buffalo' word shifted to mean 'cow', and buffalo, when they still had to be referred to, were then called by a term literally meaning 'wild cows'. One certainly doesn't have to imply that the Miamis couldn't tell bobcats from house cats, or buffalos from cows. >> Given the morphological transparency of *meh$ipe$iwa ('big bobcat'), it might >> not be of Proto-Algonquian or even Proto-Central Algonquian vintage. > Why should transparency preclude a certain age? I mean, it certainly is the > other way round, that an eroded form as a rule won't be particularly fresh, > except when dealing with allegro forms or disfigurement for taboo reasons. I wouldn't call */pe$iwa/ an 'eroded form', simply the noun that lacks the 'big' prenoun. Also, */pe$iwa/ is morphologically unsegmentable, and is much more widely reconstructible in the family: it's found in all the Central languages and in several Eastern languages. (But not the Plains languages, evidently!) Far as I can tell, */meh$ipe$iwa/ is found in most the Great Lakes languages and nowhere else, and in half of these languages it actually indicates the mythical underwater panther and not plain old pumas. So it doesn't strike me as the most satisfying candidate for a Proto-Algonquian term, tho perhaps it was. > The Proto-Algonquian homeland is about as fixed as flowing water. In more > naive times Siebert placed it in southern Ontario around Georgian Bay; Goddard > has recently correctly repositioned "west of Lake Superior," but meaning > what?--somewhere between Duluth and Hokkaido? It's entirely true that the Proto-Algonquian homeland is still nebulous. However, it's quite possible to state that certain animals WERE present in the PA homeland, and certain others were not. For example, moose, skunks, and elk were unquestionably present in the PA homeland, wherever it was, while, say, possums, alligators and coyotes were very likely not, even tho many modern Algonquian languages have coined names for them. Of course many other animals are much less clear candidates one way or the other. > In any event, the Proto-Algonquians would no doubt have had contact with the > mountain lion since it's original habitat included all of what is now southern > Canada. Can we actually verify this? I know that animal ranges now are generally drastically different from what they were 500 years ago, but my sources SEEM to indicate that mountain lions weren't present in Canada east of the Rockies -- tho that could well be just due to habitat loss. Either way, I would like to verify where mountain lions lived pre-contact, if possible. It's worth noting that in Siebert's article on the Proto-Algonquian homeland, he did NOT reconstruct a term for cougars/mountain lions/pumas/panthers, despite his kitchen-sink tendency in that article to throw in everything he possibly could. best, David From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Sat Aug 9 18:44:24 2003 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (Heike =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=F6deker?=) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 20:44:24 +0200 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 09:54 09.08.03 -0700, David Costa wrote: > >> Given the morphological transparency of *meh$ipe$iwa ('big bobcat'), > it might > >> not be of Proto-Algonquian or even Proto-Central Algonquian vintage. > > > Why should transparency preclude a certain age? I mean, it certainly is the > > other way round, that an eroded form as a rule won't be particularly fresh, > > except when dealing with allegro forms or disfigurement for taboo reasons. > >I wouldn't call */pe$iwa/ an 'eroded form', simply the noun that lacks the >'big' prenoun. Oops, misunderstanding... I was mentioned erosion merely in contrast to transparency, and of course it doesn't apply in the cases mentioned in this thread. I also can't really think of Algonquian analogies to processes like say the prefix preemption ubiquitious in Tibeto-Burman, hence my skepticism regarding correlations of transparency and age. >... Far as I can tell, */meh$ipe$iwa/ is found in most the Great Lakes >languages and nowhere else, and in half of these languages it actually >indicates the mythical underwater panther and not plain old pumas. Of course that's what's left after the puma has vanished from more than the Eastern half of N America (sauf the Florida Panther), excluding most of the Subarctic (from which to in this case, however, exclude almost all of Interior BC). >It's entirely true that the Proto-Algonquian homeland is still nebulous. >However, it's quite possible to state that certain animals WERE present in >the PA homeland, and certain others were not. For example, moose, skunks, >and elk were unquestionably present in the PA homeland, wherever it was, >while, say, possums, alligators and coyotes were very likely not, even tho >many modern Algonquian languages have coined names for them. Of course many >other animals are much less clear candidates one way or the other. Of course, there always is a possibility of semantic shifts, and we know from Comparative Indo-European how unpleasurable urheimat debates grounded on designations of plants and animals are. > > In any event, the Proto-Algonquians would no doubt have had contact > with the > > mountain lion since it's original habitat included all of what is now > southern > > Canada. > >Can we actually verify this? I know that animal ranges now are generally >drastically different from what they were 500 years ago, but my sources SEEM >to indicate that mountain lions weren't present in Canada east of the >Rockies -- tho that could well be just due to habitat loss. Either way, I >would like to verify where mountain lions lived pre-contact, if possible. I did check biological resources more than a decade ago. Probably these days there also will good maps to be found on the web. All the best, Heike From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 10 01:58:12 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:58:12 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030808171250.009f74e0@pop3.netcologne.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Heike B?deker wrote: > What may be interesting to note is that is that many NAN languages derive > the word for "puma" from "lynx/bobcat" (BF omahkat??yo, PCA *me'?ipe?iwa > "puma; Great Lynx, Underwater Manito" as in Nakoda ig^mu-thaNka, Dhegiha > iGdh?N-seN-sn?de "long-tail-bobcat"). A differentiation between Canadian > lynx vs. bobcats is rare (bobcat as "spotted lynx": Miami-Illinois > wiikwee-pinaiwa, Minnesota-Ojibwe gidagaa-bizhiw, BF k??hstsipimi-nat??yo) > ? as are overlapping habitats... Correcting some typos, it's iNgdhaN'=siN=snede, i.e., iNgdhaN < iNgdhaNga 'cat', siN < siNde 'tail' plus, of course, snede 'long'. The truncation here is probably Omaha-Ponca's relict of Dakotan final vowel truncation. I hypothesize something like Pre-OP *iNkraNk-siNt-srete here, though, in fact, the compound may have been formulated fresh sometime since Proto-Dhegiha from formerly productive iNgdhaN- (combining form of iNgdhaNga) < *iNkraNk(e) + siN- (combining form of siNde) < *siNt(e) + snede < *sret(e). Either way, truncated combining forms aren't usual in modern OP compounds, thought here are a fair number of fossilized examples. Based on Fletcher & LaFlesche, I'd have to agree that iNgdhaN'ga alone is 'bobcat', since they gloss it 'wild cat'. Today this is 'cat'. Lynx is given as iNgdhaN'ga hiN s^kube 'deep-furred iNgdhaNga'. It is fairly clear that most Siouan languages don't draw any deep distinction between different kinds of felidae, but terms can be compound derivatives without being either (a) new or (b) non-lexicalized, even though underived terms are a bit easier to found hypotheses upon. The 'mountain lion' term is at least in archaic form. Dhegiha *iNkraN-ka, Dakotan ikmuN, Winnebago (w)ic^aNwaN, and Ioway-Otoe udwaN seem to reflect a single somewhat irregular set for something like *ikwuN or *itraN. The only other set with this correspondence is one of the curcurbit terms, apparently *wa-kwuN or *wa-traN. All these forms are very non-canonical for Siouan and presumably Proto-Siouan, and I believe this term has lots of resemblants across North America, so it's probably a loan set, possibly of Proto-Mississippi Valley age. I swear that I encountered at one point in the literature on the archaeology of the American Bottom (i.e., the bottom lands around St. Louis - not at all what you're trying to parse) a passing reference to a statuette of an image of a cat entwined with squash vines. It may have been an halucination, as I haven't been able to rediscover it in some casual searching. Actually, the association makes a certain amount of sense to me, as both cats and cucurbits have somewhat similar inclinations to a stripy-spotty exterior. What puzzles me is that such an image should have survived in a form that an archaologist would recognize immediately as what it was. It seems too much like the answer to a historical linguist's dream to be plausible. Hence my suspicion that it was an halucination. There was no picture. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 10 03:19:20 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 21:19:20 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: <1012259266.20030808024037@mail.ru> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Wablenica wrote: > I wonder what can be the origin of ASB puza/buza "cat" It occurs to me that puza is more or less in canonical form for Dakotan, but pusi is not. It is perhaps a bit daring to proposed canonicalization as a form of analogical shift. JEK From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Aug 10 14:52:27 2003 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 09:52:27 -0500 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: Drechsel, in his _Mobilian Jargon_ (1997, p. 92) quotes Louisiana records by Gatschet (1885: Lake Charles fieldwork 1885) and Read (1940: Opelousas ms. 1862) of a Jargon word pishu 'wild cat'. Alan From arem8 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 10 19:02:16 2003 From: arem8 at hotmail.com (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:02:16 -0400 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: Michael McCafferty wrote: > > > > > > In any event, the Proto-Algonquians would no doubt have had contact > > > with the > > > > mountain lion since it's original habitat included all of what is >now > > > southern > > > > Canada. At 09:54 09.08.03 -0700, David Costa wrote: > > > > > >Can we actually verify this? I know that animal ranges now are >generally > > >drastically different from what they were 500 years ago, but my sources > > SEEM > > >to indicate that mountain lions weren't present in Canada east of the > > >Rockies -- tho that could well be just due to habitat loss. Either way, >I > > >would like to verify where mountain lions lived pre-contact, if >possible. > Yes. I'll give you what I got. I've been working on a study of the Underwater Cat and its special relation to the Wabash River, which I hoped to have ready for presentation at the Algonquianists' conference in October, but things have delayed it, so it won't be ready in time for that. In any event, in his chapter titled "The panther in Huron-Wyandot and Seneca culture," in _Icons of Power--Feline Symbolism in the Americas_, (1998, ed.. Nicolas J. Saunders George R. Hammell notes, "Until historically recent times the panther had one of the most extensive ranges of latitude of any terrestial mammal in the New World--from the Canadian Yukon to the Straits of Magellan. Paleozoological evidence documents the panther's presence in North America since the Late Pleiocene, some 100,00 years ago (Kurten and Anderson 1980: 194-5; Lundelius et al. 1983:337)" (Hammell, p. 259) (Kurten, B. and E. Anderson (1980) Pleistocene Mammals of North America. New York: Columbia University Press; Lundelius Jr., E.L. et al. (1983) Terrestial vertebrate faunas. In H.E. Wright Jr. (ed.) Late Quaternary Environments of the United States, 1, The Late Pleistocene, Minneapolis: University of Minneapolis Press: 311-353). Hammell goes on to state, "The Lower Great Lakes region was the home of the so- called eastern mountain lion or panther (Felis concolor cougar Kerr), whose former maximum northerly range was the approximate latitude of the northern shore of Georgian Bay on Lake Huron." (p. 259) Hammell notes that the mountain lion was well attested historically in Ontario (p. 261), and of course in the Adirondacks. He doesn't site paleontological or archaeozoological evidence in eastern North America, but Pat Munson, one of the archaeologists here at I.U. recently told me, "(mountain lions) are certainly a tiny/sporadic occurrence in local faunal assemblages going back thousands of years into prehistory in this area." After receiving your question yesterday I wrote to another local archaeologist and faunal expert, Rex Garniwicz, to see what he can offer, especially in terms of the mountain lion's original range. But, as we can see from the above, Proto-Algonquian speakers would have known the animal, in the east and apparently the west as well. Our Siouanist friends may be interested in knowing that in Miami-Illinois we have (at least) six terms for the Underwater Cat: /mih$pin$iwa/ 'great cat', /araamipin$ia/ 'underwater cat', /ariimipin$ia/ 'within-cat', /akimarenia/ 'chiefman', /lenipin$ia/ 'original or ordinary cat' (this is a late historical form) and the one you mentioned the other day whose meaning we don't know, /wiikweepin$ia/ '?-cat' ($ = sh, i.e., s-hacek). Michael McCafferty _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From arem8 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 10 19:06:23 2003 From: arem8 at hotmail.com (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:06:23 -0400 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: Yes, Alan, this would be a borrowing, actually, from French "pichou," which was a borrowing itself from Ojibwa-Ottawa /bizhiw/ (or perhaps from Algonquin). One also sees the pichiou spelling in French, too. Michael >From: "Alan H. Hartley" >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: ASB puza >Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 09:52:27 -0500 > >Drechsel, in his _Mobilian Jargon_ (1997, p. 92) quotes Louisiana records >by Gatschet (1885: Lake Charles fieldwork 1885) and Read (1940: Opelousas >ms. 1862) of a Jargon word pishu 'wild cat'. > >Alan > _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From arem8 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 10 19:18:29 2003 From: arem8 at hotmail.com (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:18:29 -0400 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: John, I believe I've also seen your cat somewhere. I'll keep my eyes peeled. The squash vine-cat connection may also relate to the serpent aspect of the Underwater Cat. The reality of this God involves a continuum of long-bodied entities (not just kitties) --that may include vine plants-- that stretches from leeches and worms to snakes and lizards to weasels, otters and martens to pumas. Incidentally, alll of these animals are associated with the colors white and blue (which may explain why blue trade beads were historically such a hit). Michael >From: Koontz John E >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: ASB puza >Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:58:12 -0600 (MDT) > >On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Heike B?deker wrote: > > What may be interesting to note is that is that many NAN languages >derive > > the word for "puma" from "lynx/bobcat" (BF omahkat??yo, PCA *me'?ipe?iwa > > "puma; Great Lynx, Underwater Manito" as in Nakoda ig^mu-thaNka, Dhegiha > > iGdh?N-seN-sn?de "long-tail-bobcat"). A differentiation between Canadian > > lynx vs. bobcats is rare (bobcat as "spotted lynx": Miami-Illinois > > wiikwee-pinaiwa, Minnesota-Ojibwe gidagaa-bizhiw, BF >k??hstsipimi-nat??yo) > > ? as are overlapping habitats... > >Correcting some typos, it's iNgdhaN'=siN=snede, i.e., iNgdhaN < iNgdhaNga >'cat', siN < siNde 'tail' plus, of course, snede 'long'. The truncation >here is probably Omaha-Ponca's relict of Dakotan final vowel truncation. >I hypothesize something like Pre-OP *iNkraNk-siNt-srete here, though, in >fact, the compound may have been formulated fresh sometime since >Proto-Dhegiha from formerly productive iNgdhaN- (combining form of >iNgdhaNga) < *iNkraNk(e) + siN- (combining form of siNde) < *siNt(e) + >snede < *sret(e). Either way, truncated combining forms aren't usual in >modern OP compounds, thought here are a fair number of fossilized >examples. > >Based on Fletcher & LaFlesche, I'd have to agree that iNgdhaN'ga alone is >'bobcat', since they gloss it 'wild cat'. Today this is 'cat'. Lynx is >given as iNgdhaN'ga hiN s^kube 'deep-furred iNgdhaNga'. It is fairly >clear that most Siouan languages don't draw any deep distinction between >different kinds of felidae, but terms can be compound derivatives without >being either (a) new or (b) non-lexicalized, even though underived terms >are a bit easier to found hypotheses upon. The 'mountain lion' term is at >least in archaic form. > >Dhegiha *iNkraN-ka, Dakotan ikmuN, Winnebago (w)ic^aNwaN, and Ioway-Otoe >udwaN seem to reflect a single somewhat irregular set for something like >*ikwuN or *itraN. The only other set with this correspondence is one of >the curcurbit terms, apparently *wa-kwuN or *wa-traN. All these forms are >very non-canonical for Siouan and presumably Proto-Siouan, and I believe >this term has lots of resemblants across North America, so it's probably a >loan set, possibly of Proto-Mississippi Valley age. > >I swear that I encountered at one point in the literature on the >archaeology of the American Bottom (i.e., the bottom lands around St. >Louis - not at all what you're trying to parse) a passing reference to a >statuette of an image of a cat entwined with squash vines. It may have >been an halucination, as I haven't been able to rediscover it in some >casual searching. Actually, the association makes a certain amount of >sense to me, as both cats and cucurbits have somewhat similar inclinations >to a stripy-spotty exterior. What puzzles me is that such an image should >have survived in a form that an archaologist would recognize immediately >as what it was. It seems too much like the answer to a historical >linguist's dream to be plausible. Hence my suspicion that it was an >halucination. There was no picture. > >JEK > > _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sun Aug 10 19:47:17 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:47:17 -0700 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: Don't forget /waapipin$ia/, literally 'white cat', a term that Albert Gatschet got in the late 19th century, which he gives as 'white aquatic monster, traveling by electricity', and 'a mythic white monster, thought to be a whale by most Indians'. There's no evidence that /wiikweepin$ia/ was ever a term for an underwater panther; it's just the name for the Lynx, AKA lynx canadensis. Dave > Our Siouanist friends may be interested in knowing that in Miami-Illinois we > have (at least) six terms for the Underwater Cat: > > /mih$pin$iwa/ 'great cat', /araamipin$ia/ 'underwater cat', /ariimipin$ia/ > 'within-cat', /akimarenia/ 'chiefman', /lenipin$ia/ 'original or ordinary > cat' (this is a late historical form) and the one you mentioned the other > day whose meaning we don't know, /wiikweepin$ia/ '?-cat' From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 10 21:16:45 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:16:45 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: <3F365C2B.6020401@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Aug 2003, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > Drechsel, in his _Mobilian Jargon_ (1997, p. 92) quotes Louisiana > records by Gatschet (1885: Lake Charles fieldwork 1885) and Read (1940: > Opelousas ms. 1862) of a Jargon word pishu 'wild cat'. For that matter, Tutelo has puus, citing Hale via Oliverio. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 10 22:00:02 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:00:02 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Aug 2003, Michael McCafferty wrote: > Kurten, B. and E. Anderson (1980) Pleistocene Mammals of North America. New > York: Columbia University Press I have this, by the way. > Our Siouanist friends may be interested in knowing that in Miami-Illinois we > have (at least) six terms for the Underwater Cat: > > /mih$pin$iwa/ 'great cat', > /araamipin$ia/ 'underwater cat', > /ariimipin$ia/ 'within-cat', > /akimarenia/ 'chiefman', > /lenipin$ia/ 'original or ordinary cat' (this is a late historical form) > and the one you mentioned the other day whose meaning we don't > know, /wiikweepin$ia/ '?-cat' > ($ = sh, i.e., s-hacek). For what it's worth, I've just noticed that wiikwee is actually a pretty good match for that Siouan 'cat' set (per the CSD): PSI *-truN Te igmu' Sa inmu' IO udwaN' (+ yiNGe 'little') (u- ???) Wi wiic^aN'wa(siNiNc^serec^) 'cougar' (long-tailed cat) Dh *i(N)kruN-ka OP iNgdhaN'(ga) Ks iluN Os iluN'ka Bi tmoc^-ka Tu taluskik (I'd guess the root is something like t(a)lus followed by kik indicating something like 'small', though not, I think otherwise attested. Maybe kik is -ka + yiNk(i) 'little', contracted together.) Yuchi has something like atyuNne 'wildcat', though I'm not sure I've rerendered the DOS representation of Yuchi's complex orthography correctly. Northern Iroquoian has a series of terms that I'll try to sum up with Mohawk atiiru. (I think there's a grave accent over the long i.) Note that the Siouan pus forms, per the CSD, are: Hi puus^ihke = puusi + diminutive Ma pu's ~ puse', pu'spuse La pusi'la Tu pus (Probably should be puus) From BARudes at aol.com Sun Aug 10 22:36:42 2003 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 18:36:42 EDT Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: Well, since you have mentioned Iroquoian, I guess I will jump in here. The words for 'cat', 'panther', 'wild cat' are much more diverse than you lead one to believe. The word for an ordinary domestic cat appears as Tuscarora t'a:ku:0, Seneca ta:kos, and similar forms in Cayuga, Oneida, Onondaga, and Mohawk. It is general agreed these are loan words form Dutch de poes. The most widespread word for a 'wild cat' is Cherokee gvhe 'bobcat', Tuscarora k'eNhreks 'wildcat', Wyandot y'eNhri$ 'wildcat', Seneca heN:es 'panther, tiger, leopard', Onondaga k'eNhres 'wildcat', Oneida k`v:les 'wildcat', Mohawk k`vh:es 'wildcat'. Then there is the word you cite, which is a Mohawk word, at?:ru, which has cognate in Oneida (at?:lu). The form you cite as Iroquoian is actually the Mohawk word for a 'skunk', for which there is a cognate in Oneida vt'i:lu 'racoon', Wyandot ati:roN 'skunk', Huron tiron 'skunk', Tuscarora n'e?reN? 'skunk' and Cherokee dili 'skunk'. There are a variety of other words for larger or smaller wild cats in the individual languages. For example, the Tuscarora word for a 'panther' is tkeNw`e:nuh. I would urge great caution in lumping words for 'cat' from diverse North American languages together just because they start with a /p/ (or /k/ in Iroquoian) and contain a sibilant. Sources for borrowing include, but are not limited to English pussy, Dutch (de) poes, Alongquian *pin$iwa, French pichou (as a reborrowing). There is also the possibility that, given that such a range of language have words of a similar form, one is dealing at least in part with some form of independent innovation of an imitative word. Blair From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sun Aug 10 23:09:04 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:09:04 -0700 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: Ummm... I'm confused. Which term here matches wiikwee-? Dave > For what it's worth, I've just noticed that wiikwee is actually a pretty > good match for that Siouan 'cat' set (per the CSD): > > PSI *-truN > > Te igmu' > Sa inmu' > > IO udwaN' (+ yiNGe 'little') (u- ???) > Wi wiic^aN'wa(siNiNc^serec^) 'cougar' (long-tailed cat) > > Dh *i(N)kruN-ka > > OP iNgdhaN'(ga) > Ks iluN > Os iluN'ka > > Bi tmoc^-ka > > Tu taluskik (I'd guess the root is something like t(a)lus followed by kik > indicating something like 'small', though not, I think otherwise attested. > Maybe kik is -ka + yiNk(i) 'little', contracted together.) > > Yuchi has something like atyuNne 'wildcat', though I'm not sure I've > rerendered the DOS representation of Yuchi's complex orthography > correctly. > > Northern Iroquoian has a series of terms that I'll try to sum up with > Mohawk atiiru. (I think there's a grave accent over the long i.) > > Note that the Siouan pus forms, per the CSD, are: > > Hi puus^ihke = puusi + diminutive > > Ma pu's ~ puse', pu'spuse > > La pusi'la > > Tu pus (Probably should be puus) From mary.marino at usask.ca Mon Aug 11 05:14:58 2003 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Mary Marino) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:14:58 -0600 Subject: They Never Surrendered Message-ID: Colleagues, I just noticed that the article handed out at the Conference, entitled "They Never Surrendered: the Lakota Sioux Band That Stayed in Canada" does not have the author's name on it. The author is Ronald J. Papandrea. He attended the papers on Friday afternoon and gave us copies of his article. Mary From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 11 06:12:38 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 00:12:38 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Aug 2003, David Costa wrote: > Ummm... I'm confused. Which term here matches wiikwee-? > > For what it's worth, I've just noticed that wiikwee is actually a pretty > > good match for that Siouan 'cat' set (per the CSD): MI wiikwee- PSI *-truN (one might have plumped for *-kwuN, too) PreDa *ikwuN (i.e., m = w/__VN) Te igmu' Sa inmu' PreIO *wiitwaN ??? IO udwaN' (+ yiNGe 'little') (u- ???) Wi wiic^aN'wa(siNiNc^serec^) 'cougar' (long-tailed cat) PreWi *wii'twaN PreDh *i(N)kruN-ka (*-ka is a noun former) OP iNgdhaN'(ga) Ks iluN (l < *kr) Os iluN'ka (l < *kr) Bi *tmoc^-ka (tmo suggests *twuN) Tu *talus-ka yiNki (attested form regularized as "taluskik") Yuchi atyuNne 'wildcat' Mohawk atiiru To understand how kw matches tw matches tr you have to understand that (a) this is the set, for better or worse, (b) cucurbit (where attested) matches it in form pretty exactly, language by language, but with the prefix wa- instead of (wi)i-, and (c) Siouan avoids clusters like kw or tw, clusters like tr, and labial + rounded vowel sequences like wu(N). Thus wild variations among kwuN ~ kruN ~ twaN ~ truN look like reasonable dissimilation products. 'Cat' and 'cucurbit' are the only sets (?) with this cluster. I suspect something like (?) t(V)ruN wandered in at one point in Siouan, and the twaN and kwuN forms represent dialect adaptations of it. Something like wi(i)twaN or wi(i)kwuN might then explain wiikwee. The w-prefix would result from either (a) attaching wa- as a sort of nominalizer, or from (b) the old scheme of classifier prefixes that Bob Rankin has suggested underlie things like the wii- in Wi wiic^aNwa. In particular I believe it looks to him like wi- might be the "animal" prefix. There are traces of these in Siouan, Catawba and Yuchi. I realize that comparing MI ee to Siouan uN or aN may be problematic, but perhaps aN was sounded N, especially before *yiNk(e) 'small'. OP haN egaN=c^he '(early) morning' < 'night like when' is pronounced hN'gc^hi, to give a for instance, and ppi'=az^i 'bad < not good' is pronounced ppi'=z^i or when the accent shifts just reduced to ppez^i'-. Say, isn't ee rather unusual in this position in MI? As for why terms for cats should be borrowed or possibly associated with terms for cucurbits - well this is perhaps part of what Michael McCafferty is looking at from another direction, though it's up to him to decide if any of this is relevant. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 11 06:41:52 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 00:41:52 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 BARudes at aol.com wrote: > Well, since you have mentioned Iroquoian, I guess I will jump in here. > The words for 'cat', 'panther', 'wild cat' are much more diverse than > you lead one to believe. ... I'm sorry - I didn't mean to suggest that Iroquoian was short of 'cat' terms. I was avoiding citing a fuller set for this particular term, which resembles the Siouan form in a general way at least. > Then there is the word you cite, which is a Mohawk word, at?:ru, which > has cognate in Oneida (at?:lu). The form you cite as Iroquoian is > actually the Mohawk word for a 'skunk', for which there is a cognate > in Oneida vt'i:lu 'racoon', Wyandot ati:roN 'skunk', Huron tiron > 'skunk', Tuscarora n'e?reN? 'skunk' and Cherokee dili 'skunk'. I had the set from Marianne Mithun's summary in the Extending the Rafters collection. I knew that it referred to non-felines, though I wasn't sure which. I omitted to mention in justification that English 'cat' has been extended to cover such non-feline predators - e.g., civet cats, black cats, polecats (whether skunks or ferrets), Ginsterkatze (genets), etc., and one would have to assume something like this process was at work here, too. As far as raccoons are concerned, the French term in my Peterson Field Guide for British and European mammals gives raton laveur. So, in French a raccoon is a rat, not a cat. My Omaha consultant appeared to lump ground squirrels and weasels, for that matter, and the standard Dhegiha terms lump mice and weasels. I have been noticing that folk taxonomies operate along quite different lines from Linnaeus and subsequent scientific taxonomists. This is one of the difficulties with using terms for Linnaean species to try to identify homelands. > I would urge great caution in lumping words for 'cat' from diverse > North American languages together just because they start with a /p/ > (or /k/ in Iroquoian) and contain a sibilant. Sources for borrowing > include, but are not limited to English pussy, Dutch (de) poes, > Alongquian *pin$iwa, French pichou (as a reborrowing). There is also > the possibility that, given that such a range of language have words > of a similar form, one is dealing at least in part with some form of > independent innovation of an imitative word. The point that multiple European sources might be involves is a good one, though I'm not sure that the Siouan data requires it. As far as I can see forms attributed to English puss(y) have all been of the form pu(u)s(i) - except for the As buza form - all much better matches that the Siouan set and MI wiikwee-. Actually, they are better matches than the Siouan set is within itself. Siouanists are perhaps guilty of tunnel vision in comparing all of their 'cat' forms to each other. Maybe they are unrelated loans from different directions. From BARudes at aol.com Mon Aug 11 14:09:50 2003 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:09:50 EDT Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: John, I can barely decide where to begin with a discussion of the problems with your proposal. MI wiikwee- PSI *-truN (one might have plumped for *-kwuN, too) PreDa *ikwuN (i.e., m = w/__VN) Te igmu' Sa inmu' PreIO *wiitwaN ??? IO udwaN' (+ yiNGe 'little') (u- ???) Wi wiic^aN'wa(siNiNc^serec^) 'cougar' (long-tailed cat) PreWi *wii'twaN PreDh *i(N)kruN-ka (*-ka is a noun former) OP iNgdhaN'(ga) Ks iluN (l < *kr) Os iluN'ka (l < *kr) Bi *tmoc^-ka (tmo suggests *twuN) Tu *talus-ka yiNki (attested form regularized as "taluskik") Yuchi atyuNne 'wildcat' Mohawk atiiru A. I assume you are suggesting that the Miami form is a loan from the PreDakotan reconstruction, since it is the only form in your set that bears any resemblance to the Miami form. However, as you point out, the Miami and the PreDakotan forms share only the consonant cluster. B. You are proposing to explain the initial w- in the Miami form from a PreDakotan initial *w- from one or another of several sources, but the *w- is not even reconstructable for the PreDakotan form. C. You are proposing that Proto-Siouan *-truN ' panther, mountain lion' is cognate with or in some other way related to Proto-Iroquoian *ti:l-i/oN 'skunk' (see cognates in previous email), despite the difference in meanings and the problem of where the vowel separating the consonants came from in Iroquoian or went to in Siouan. D. You are proposing that Proto-Siouan *-truN 'panther, mountain lion' is cognate with a purposed Yuchi form atyuNne 'wildcat'. No such form exists! (Please check your sources before citing data from other languages, even in emails; otherwise, you run the risk, as here (and with the gloss for the Mohawk word ('skunk', not 'panther or mountain lion'), of creating new or perpetuating old ghost forms.) A check of Bill Ballard's English-Yuchi lexicon shows that the Yuchi word for 'wildcat' is $athy at N ($ = s hachek, @N = nasal open o). He also cites a form from Gunther Wagner, cat' an' e ($at?ane) which is not the same word. $athy at N also means 'raccoon'. I have seen no evidence (other cognate sets) suggesting that Proto-Siouan *tr corresponds to either Yuchi thy or t?, and there is no explanation for the initial $a- or final - at N or -ane in Yuchi. In summary, a relationship between Proto-Siouan *-truN 'mountain lion, panther', Proto-Iroquoian *ti:l-i/oN 'skunk', and Yuchi $athy at N 'wildcat; raccoon' or $at?ane 'wildcat' is by no means certain. And, a relationship between preDakotan *ikwuN- and Miami wiikwee requires too many ad hoc explanations to be very satisfying. Comparions of data across language families (Siouan, Yuchi, Iroquoian, not to mention Algonquian) requires just as much (if not more) philological rigor and adherence to the comparative method as does comparison within a language family. It helps no one to propose such speculative relationships reminiscent of Greenburg's Amerindian comparisons as the one above. Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon Aug 11 14:38:27 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:38:27 -0500 Subject: FW: Translation from Curtis chair. Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I have this from Rich Doerner in Washington regarding his research into the Curtis chair. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Doerner, Rich (Secretary) Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 11:59 AM To: Rankin, Robert L Subject: RE: Translation from Curtis chair--ADDITION My thanks to you and your team for your work in translating the carved Native American words on the chair; truly incredible research and detective work. I tend to agree with the bottom translation probably being his Indian name for the following reason. A 1929 article appeared in the American Mercury journal on Curtis titled "Heap Big Chief" by a Washington correspondent. The chair is mentioned in the article as follows: ...What is probably one of the most curious throne chairs in the world faces it. Its back is almost six feet in height and of carved and filigreed wood. At the top, in gilt letters, are the words, "The Chief." In the center is a plaque of carving. Around the rim of this piece of artistry is inscribed, also in gold lettering, the fact that the chair is the gift of the Original Curtis Boys and Matthew Quay Glaser. Within are the mysterious words: KO-TNA-U-CA-SHE-THI-CE-XTSI-MO-KO-ONTHIA-ETTO-N, apparently in some secret code, understood only by Charley and his brother tribesmen." In the same article, Curtis explains other things in his office, but it seems to be implied that Curtis did not want to reveal the translation to the author for some reason when he conducted a tour of his office. In the meantime, I am reading 7 books from the Library of Congress on Curtis in the hopes that there may be some reference to his early Indian name. Also, interestingly, the chair no longer has the carving "From the Original Curtis Boys..." on it. In fact, I located a 1932 photograph of Curtis in the chair without the carving; so sometime between 1929 and 1932 the carving was taken off for some reason. Also, I located Matthew Quay Glaser name in a New York Times article when he was invited to a Curtis speech; he is referred to as a New York businessman. Again, I can't thank you enough for all your help. I will keep you informed of our research and findings. Best, Richard -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L [mailto:rankin at ku.edu] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 9:25 PM To: Doerner, Rich (Secretary) Subject: RE: Translation from Curtis chair--ADDITION Mr. Doerner, One small addition to what I sent earlier. I said I was checking on Curtis's Indian name. We have not found it yet, but Crystal Douglas, the staff archaeologist at the Kaw Nation tribal museum, is checking the 1860 or 1865 tribal rolls. This was the period when young Charlie moved to the reservation at Council Grove, KS to live with his Indian grandmother. We may be able to locate the name on tribal rolls if you are unable to locate it in the available literature you are researching. The phrase at the bottom of the medallion may have a meaning like "Charges-his-enemies", or "Attacker" or "Charger". The Osage verb KONTHA means "to charge one's enemies" or "to threaten, menace", so if we find that young Charles Curtis had a name of roughly that meaning in English, then we have solved the puzzle. Otherwise, the bottom line on the carving is probably "It is our wish", as I suggested earlier. The upper inscription is as I reported before. I'll let you know if I find out anything. Best, Bob Rankin Univ. of Kansas From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Aug 11 17:01:06 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:01:06 -0700 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: Depends on what kind of French you're talking about. In ALL the old French documents I've looked at, the French name for the raccoon is 'chat sauvage'. Clearly it was the standard name for the animal. I think this term is now considered a 'Canadianism'. Dave > As far as raccoons are concerned, the French term in my Peterson Field Guide > for British and European mammals gives raton laveur. So, in French a raccoon > is a rat, not a cat. From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Mon Aug 11 17:13:44 2003 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:13:44 -0700 Subject: A little more on Iroquoian In-Reply-To: <78.45438e77.2c68fdae@aol.com> Message-ID: Just a couple things about Iroquoian. Please note that ati:ru and similar words refer (in Mohawk as elsewhere) to the raccoon, not to the skunk, which is ani:tas and similar. I've left off accents, a few differences in vowels, etc. I notice this is what Marianne had in Extending the Rafters. I believe it was Ives Goddard who first suggested that takos and similar words come from Dutch de poes. It spread throughout the Northern Iroquoian languages as the word for the domestic cat. Words for North American Felidae differ among those languages. The most widespread, keNhres and similar words, means long tail, and at least in Seneca heN:es (with a masculine prefix) refers to a larger species (Felis concor?). It's interesting that the name Erie comes from this, originating in the form Eries, apparently interpreted in English as a plural. The -es means long. We don't know much about the Eries, who inhabited northern Ohio, but they were called the Cat Nation. One of the cleverest paper titles I've ever seen was Roy Wright's "The Nation of the Cat: A Long Erie Tale". The smaller species, usually identified in English as wildcat (probably Lynx canadensis), is called in Seneca jikoNhsahseN', which means fat face. In the legend of the founding of the League of the Iroquois it was also the name of the so-called Peace Queen who was the first to receive the message of peace from the peacemaker. None of this has anything to do with Siouan, but since we seem to have branched out into Algonquian... Wally From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Aug 11 17:51:08 2003 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:51:08 -0500 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: Lynx is commonly loup cervier or pichou in N. Amer. French. And see-- 1791 J. LONG Voyages 217 "North Case Cat Pichoux du nord - South Case Cat Pichoux du sud" note: prob. lynx & bobcat respectively 1774 tr. LE PAGE DU PRATZ Hist. Louisiana 149 "we find numbers of wolves, some tigers, Cat-a-mounts, (Pichous) and carrion-crows" From arem8 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 18:05:19 2003 From: arem8 at hotmail.com (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:05:19 -0400 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: Raton laveur is the French French word for raccoon. The North American term for this animal has always been chat sauvage. What is going on here is what is going on presently in Quebec--an attempt by masters of the ivory towers to destroy the local language so as to make it more "French". What you do is put the continental French words in the school books and force the teachers to use them. It works, unfortunately. Little children on the streets in Montreal are now using the monstrosity 'cerf de Virginie' for the Virginia deer, whereas the North American French word has always been 'chevreuil'. This is just one of many examples of the nasty hits that Quebec French is now taking. Imagine. It's as if: Ok, now....everybody, let's all say "lorry," "lift," "petrol".... Michael McCafferty pd Costa" >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: ASB puza >Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:01:06 -0700 > > >Depends on what kind of French you're talking about. In ALL the old French >documents I've looked at, the French name for the raccoon is 'chat >sauvage'. >Clearly it was the standard name for the animal. I think this term is now >considered a 'Canadianism'. > >Dave > > > As far as raccoons are concerned, the French term in my Peterson Field >Guide > > for British and European mammals gives raton laveur. So, in French a >raccoon > > is a rat, not a cat. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 11 19:19:38 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:19:38 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, David Costa wrote: > Depends on what kind of French you're talking about. In ALL the old French > documents I've looked at, the French name for the raccoon is 'chat sauvage'. > Clearly it was the standard name for the animal. I think this term is now > considered a 'Canadianism'. The raton laveur form was supposedly metropolitan, though it has a learned sound to it. I'd be prepared to believe that popular terms might be different. There are apparently feral raccoons in Europe, though I don't have the range map handy at the moment. It's actually handy for the raccoon to be a cat as well as a rat, in the context, of course! From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 11 19:26:35 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:26:35 -0600 Subject: A little more on Iroquoian In-Reply-To: <4647890.1060596824@[192.168.2.34]> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, Wallace Chafe wrote: > I believe it was Ives Goddard who first suggested that takos and similar > words come from Dutch de poes. It spread throughout the Northern Iroquoian > languages as the word for the domestic cat. Words for North American > Felidae differ among those languages. The most widespread, keNhres and > similar words, means long tail, ... Like other terms for mountain lions. But I guess this makes sense if the less marked wildcat is a bobcat/lynx, which hasn't got much of a tail. I can't remember if Heike made this point already! > One of the cleverest paper titles I've ever seen was Roy Wright's "The > Nation of the Cat: A Long Erie Tale". ... > > None of this has anything to do with Siouan, but since we seem to have > branched out into Algonquian... But worth it for Roy Wright's title alone. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 11 19:30:48 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:30:48 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: <3F37D78C.5060203@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > 1774 tr. LE PAGE DU PRATZ Hist. Louisiana 149 > "we find numbers of wolves, some tigers, Cat-a-mounts, (Pichous) and > carrion-crows" Tigers? Would this be jaguars or ocelots? Modern field guides list these as barely intrusive into Texas near the mouth of the Rio Grande, though I think this is somewhat out of date or maybe just wishful thinking. It does allow an author to add a couple of interesting animals to the coverage. JEK From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Mon Aug 11 19:29:14 2003 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (Heike =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=F6deker?=) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:29:14 +0200 Subject: Just 2 minor notes on realia (was: A little more on Iroquoian) In-Reply-To: <4647890.1060596824@[192.168.2.34]> Message-ID: At 10:13 11.08.03 -0700, Wallace Chafe wrote: >I believe it was Ives Goddard who first suggested that takos and similar >words come from Dutch de poes. It spread throughout the Northern Iroquoian >languages as the word for the domestic cat. Words for North American >Felidae differ among those languages. The most widespread, keNhres and >similar words, means long tail, and at least in Seneca heN:es (with a >masculine prefix) refers to a larger species (Felis concor?). It's >interesting that the name Erie comes from this, originating in the form >Eries, apparently interpreted in English as a plural. The -es means long. >We don't know much about the Eries, who inhabited northern Ohio, but they >were called the Cat Nation. One of the cleverest paper titles I've ever >seen was Roy Wright's "The Nation of the Cat: A Long Erie Tale". The "long-tail", of course, matches the pattern already known from Algonquian and Siouan... designating the puma (mountain lion, panther, cougar...), which I'd scientifically preferred to refer to as puma concolor. There has been some debate on whether to group this species together with the very archaic golden cats (profelis spp.), caracals (caracal caracal), possibly also servals (leptailurus serval), but there seems no consensus about this (maybe cold comfort to historical linguists that biologists have this type of group-problems, too...). However, felis should be reserved to the group of Central to Western Eurasian and African small cats (with only the octolobus manul as a close relative) comprising the jungle cat (felis chaus), probably the primary split..., the very archaic blackfooted cat (felis nigripes), Chinese desert cat (felis bieti), sand cat (felis margarita), wildcats (comprising the archaic ornata [in arid regions from Iran to Pakistan and Middle to Central Asia], as well as the silvestris [in Europe, Anatolia and the Caucasus] and ocreata [in the Near East and Africa] groups). >The smaller species, usually identified in English as wildcat (probably >Lynx canadensis), is called in Seneca jikoNhsahseN', which means fat face. >In the legend of the founding of the League of the Iroquois it was also >the name of the so-called Peace Queen who was the first to receive the >message of peace from the peacemaker. "Wildcat" usually is synonymous to bobcat (lynx rufus), if not understood ? la lettre as "wild cat", which, alas, is very common, too, and then difficult to guess what really is meant... Also interesting to see that the puma playing important mythological roles is widespread, too... All the best, Heike From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Aug 11 20:01:41 2003 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:01:41 -0500 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: > Tigers? Would this be jaguars or ocelots? > JEK In Amer. use, usually 'cougar', e.g., Alexander Henry 1776 in Travels & Adventures (1901) 305: "The animals, which I saw alive on the Plains, are oxen, red-deer and wolves; but, I saw also the skins of foxes, bears, and a small number of panthers, sometimes called tigers, and most properly, cougars." And 1894 in Dict. Americanisms: "The panther was long called a 'tyger' in the Carolinas, and a 'lyon' elsewhere". Red-deer: for goodness' sake, let's not get into cervids until the felids are all explicated ;) Alan From BARudes at aol.com Mon Aug 11 21:21:53 2003 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:21:53 EDT Subject: A little more on Iroquoian Message-ID: A couple of things: First, since I was hasty in my glossing of the words meaning 'skunk', 'raccoon', etc. this morning, and since Wally's comment ("?and related forms") is ambiguous, I give here the entire cognate set with glosses and citations to sources. The gloss for the reconstructed forms is based on Cherokee and Tuscarora sharing the same gloss; the set as a whole was glossed 'skunk' in Mithun 1984; however, Mohawk, Oneida and Wyandot (?) may have preserved the original meaning. PI *t'i:?r 'skunk' (Rudes1995:53) Ch ti:li 'skunk' (King 1978), di?li 'skunk' (Holmes and Smith 1977:257) PNI *t'i:?roN 'skunk' T n'e?reN? 'skunk' (Rudes 1999:347) OH tiron ' a kind of leopard or wild cat' (Sagard, cited in Tooker 1991:158) W at'i:roN ('raccoon' ?) (I could not locate this word in Barbeau's material at the moment, but the words for wildcat and skunk are different) Oe vtil'uN 'raccoon' (Michelson 2002:351) M at`i:uN 'raccoon' (Michelson 1973:33) Second, contrary to the proposal made in Wright 1974, Iroquoian *k'eNhreks cannot come from a construction meaning 'long tail'. The Mohawk, Oneida, Old Tuscarora, and Tuscarora words show that the Proto-Northern Iroquoian word was *k'eNhreks with final *-eks, not *-es. The final -es in the Seneca and Onondaga forms, and the final -i$ of Wyandot result from regular processes of cluster reduction. The Proto-Iroquoian form may or may not have ended with *-ks; too little is known about the relationship of final clusters between Northern Iroquoian and Cherokee. The PNI root for 'be long' is *-e:ts-/-i:ts-/-oN:ts-, not **-e:s. It appears in Tuscarora as -e:0, not **-e:s. Since the verb always consists of a vowel followed by a fricative, it cannot be part of the ending of *k'eNhreks. Furthermore, one cannot reconstruct a root **-ihrek- or *-ihre- 'tail' for Proto-Iroquoian or Proto-Northern Iroquoian. The roots in the various languages are: T -(i)?rhweN0- (Rudes 1999:271), Se -ihkaR- (Chafe 1967:#756), C -?nheNhts-/-?nhweNhts-, Oo -iteN?R- (Woodbury 2003:1386), Oe -tahs-/-taks- (Michelson 2002:428), M -itahs- (Michelson 1973:62), Huron -itah$- (Fraser 1920:455). The Tuscarora and Cayuga words point to a root *-?rhweNts-; the Mohawk, Oneida, and Huron words point to a root *-itahs-. There are additional problems with the proposed derivation of the name Erie from *k'eNhreks that I will leave for another time; in any event, looking at Roy's analysis 31 years after he presented it, it does not look so good. As it stands, PI *k'eNhre(ks) looks like an unanalyzable form. PI *k'VNhre(ks) Ch gvhe 'bobcat' (Feeling 1975:26) PNI *k'eNhreks T k'eNhreks 'mountain lion' (Rudes 1999:252) OT caunerex 'wildcat-skin' (Lawson 1709) W yeNhr'i$ 'lion' (Barbeau 1960:118) S heN:es 'panther, tiger, leopard' (Chafe 1967:#562) OOo guenhrach 'tigre' (Shea 1860:98) Oo k'eNhes 'wildcat' (Mithun 1984:265) Oe k'vleks 'lion' (Michelson 2002:477) M k`v:reks 'wildcat' (Mithun 1984:265) Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu Mon Aug 11 22:45:18 2003 From: mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Marianne Mithun) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:45:18 -0700 Subject: A little more on Iroquoian In-Reply-To: <4647890.1060596824@[192.168.2.34]> Message-ID: And a couple more. Wally is right about the raccoon and skunk. The wildcat words in Mohawk and Oneida are actually a bit different from what Blair lists, and would suggest a different interpretation from what we find in Seneca: Mohawk ken:reks (with en representing a nasalized caret, with falling tone, indicative of an earlier h). Marianne Quoting Wallace Chafe : > Just a couple things about Iroquoian. Please note that ati:ru and similar > words refer (in Mohawk as elsewhere) to the raccoon, not to the skunk, > which is ani:tas and similar. I've left off accents, a few differences in > vowels, etc. I notice this is what Marianne had in Extending the Rafters. > > I believe it was Ives Goddard who first suggested that takos and similar > words come from Dutch de poes. It spread throughout the Northern Iroquoian > languages as the word for the domestic cat. Words for North American > Felidae differ among those languages. The most widespread, keNhres and > similar words, means long tail, and at least in Seneca heN:es (with a > masculine prefix) refers to a larger species (Felis concor?). It's > interesting that the name Erie comes from this, originating in the form > Eries, apparently interpreted in English as a plural. The -es means long. > We don't know much about the Eries, who inhabited northern Ohio, but they > were called the Cat Nation. One of the cleverest paper titles I've ever > seen was Roy Wright's "The Nation of the Cat: A Long Erie Tale". > > The smaller species, usually identified in English as wildcat (probably > Lynx canadensis), is called in Seneca jikoNhsahseN', which means fat face. > In the legend of the founding of the League of the Iroquois it was also the > name of the so-called Peace Queen who was the first to receive the message > of peace from the peacemaker. > > None of this has anything to do with Siouan, but since we seem to have > branched out into Algonquian... > > Wally > > > > > From kopris at flash.net Tue Aug 12 02:01:03 2003 From: kopris at flash.net (CRAIG KOPRIS) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 19:01:03 -0700 Subject: A little more on Iroquoian In-Reply-To: <1ce.f22569b.2c6962f1@aol.com> Message-ID: Here are some missing Wyandot examples from Barbeau. Note that many of them are morphologically complex. 3 = voiced palatal fricative --- BARudes at aol.com wrote: > W at'i:roN ('raccoon' ?) (I could not locate > this word in Barbeau's > material at > the moment, but the words for > wildcat and skunk are > different) Raccoon: tiroN? (Barbeau 1915:192) 'the Raccoon' Barbeau usually gave another term instead: kwe3'a:kweh (Barbeau N.d.:429) 'raccoon' N.B. this manuscript is highly unreliable t'u:kwe3`a:kweh (Barbeau 1960:093 #53) 'raccoon' det'u:kwe3`a:kwe:h (Barbeau 1960:093 #62) 'the raccoon' Skunk: ditats'i?ah (Barbeau 1960:097 #22, 34; N.d.:352, 429) '(the) skunk; (the) strong smell' Felines: tak'u:$ (Barbeau 1960:131 #20; N.d.:429) 'a cat' sk`eN?kw'a? (Barbeau 1960:189 #39, 190 #17; 1915:250; N.d.:429) 'wild-cat (brave although small)' tehutsi?tsut (Barbeau N.d.:430) 'a variety of wild cat' and a set of examples based on 'to scalp' Barbeau, Marius. 1915. Huron and Wyandot Mythology: With an Appendix Containing Earlier Published Records. Canada Department of Mines Geological Survey Memoir 80, Anthropological Series 11. Ottawa: Government Printing Bureau --. 1960. Huron-Wyandot Traditional Narratives: In Translations and Native Texts. National Museum of Canada Bulletin 165, Anthropological Series 47. --. N.d. Huron-Wyandot Dictionary. Ms. Canadian Museum of Civilization, Ottawa. - Craig Kopris From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Tue Aug 12 04:22:11 2003 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:22:11 -0700 Subject: Apologies to Roy Wright In-Reply-To: <1ce.f22569b.2c6962f1@aol.com> Message-ID: I did Roy Wright a disservice if I implied that the association of Eries with long tails was his idea. In fact he just mentioned it as one thing that had been suggested by others in the past. The correct title of his paper was The People of the Panther - A Long Erie Tale (National Museum of Man, Mercury Series No. 10, Ottawa, 1974). The title wasn't meant to suggest his endorsement of that explanation. I mentioned it in my message only because I thought the multifaceted pun was so clever. I'm very grateful to Blair for setting me straight on that word for mountain lion etc. With ks at the end, it couldn't mean "long". As Blair said, Senecas can't tell final s from ts from ks. I think Lounsbury once suggested that Senecas might have folk-etymologized words ending in -es as if they meant something was long, even when they didn't originally. And it isn't at all clear what the incorporated noun here would have been. It looks as if everything after the pronominal prefix was *-ihreks, where the s looks like the habitual aspect, and the k might just possibly be "eat", but what was it that those cats ate? Of more general interest might be the suggestion that Northern Iroquoians distinguished two kinds of native cats. One may have been Puma concolor, if that's a better name for the genus. That's the one referred to by the above word. I guess it had a long tail anyway, even if that's not what the word meant. The name later got extended to tigers in circuses, which became popular in the 19th century. Sometimes lions too, but not in Seneca, where the lion word is interesting for reasons I won't go into here. The other animal recognized in precontact times was one or more species of the genus Lynx. It was smaller, without much of a tail. "Fat face" seems a good name for it. There the Seneca etymology is uncontroversial. I'm hoping this is a fair summary of the ethnozoology, which we can't necessarily expect to coincide with Linnaean categories, as was pointed out. Some of you may think that Marianne and I aren't on speaking terms. She's in Australia. Wally From arem8 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 09:35:49 2003 From: arem8 at hotmail.com (Michael McCafferty) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 05:35:49 -0400 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: >From: "David Costa" >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: ASB puza >Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:47:17 -0700 > >Don't forget /waapipin$ia/, literally 'white cat', a term that Albert >Gatschet got in the late 19th century, which he gives as 'white aquatic >monster, traveling by electricity', and 'a mythic white monster, thought to >be a whale by most Indians'. Number 7! > >There's no evidence that /wiikweepin$ia/ was ever a term for an underwater >panther; it's just the name for the Lynx, AKA lynx canadensis. > Actually, there is good evidence for this. See the Illinois-French dictionary (a.k.a. Gravier dictionary) entry <8ic8epichia>, which reads "8ic8epichia /vide/ akimareni8a". In passing, the /wiikwee-/ may actually be /wiihkwee-/, referring to the *bottom* of things. Michael >Dave > > > > Our Siouanist friends may be interested in knowing that in >Miami-Illinois we > > have (at least) six terms for the Underwater Cat: > > > > /mih$pin$iwa/ 'great cat', /araamipin$ia/ 'underwater cat', >/ariimipin$ia/ > > 'within-cat', /akimarenia/ 'chiefman', /lenipin$ia/ 'original or >ordinary > > cat' (this is a late historical form) and the one you mentioned the >other > > day whose meaning we don't know, /wiikweepin$ia/ '?-cat' _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Aug 13 01:44:44 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:44:44 -0700 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: What other words have that initial? > In passing, the /wiikwee-/ may actually be /wiihkwee-/, referring to the > *bottom* of things. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Aug 13 02:06:45 2003 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:06:45 -0500 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: > What other words have that initial? > > >>In passing, the /wiikwee-/ may actually be /wiihkwee-/, referring to the >>*bottom* of things. (Lake Superior) Ojibway: Nichols & Nyholm: wiikwe-gamaa 'be a bay' (also as placename 'Fond du Lac') Baraga: wiikwed 'bay' wiikweya 'there is a bay' wiikwe-gamigak aki 'in a corner of the earth' wiikwe-ssagak 'in a corner of the room' Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Aug 13 02:22:44 2003 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:22:44 -0500 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: > What other words have that initial? > > >>In passing, the /wiikwee-/ may actually be /wiihkwee-/, referring to the >>*bottom* of things. Plains Cree (Wolfart & Ahenakew): w?hkw?hc?- 'go around as land, be curved as land, be the sweep of the valley' w?hkw?tak?w- 'corner made by wooden walls, corner of the floor, corner of the house' w?hkw?skamik?- 'go around someone, head someone off' w?hkw?st?- 'be placed around, stand in the shape of a curve' w?hkw?t?p?n?skw- 'rounded toboggan, curved sleigh' So the Cree forms suggest the meaning 'curve around'. It's the bottom of something in the sense that the vertex of the curve is as far (into a corner or a valley) or as deep (into a bay) as one can go. Alan From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Aug 13 02:28:21 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:28:21 -0700 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: [Sorry for the prolonged non-Siouan digressions here...] It's also seen in Ottawa /wiikwe/ 'bay' (from Rhodes' dictionary). Anyway, I thought of that comparison too, but that initial doesn't mean 'bottom'. It actually seems to mean 'corner, cove, angle', as in those last two Ojibwe examples. In old Illinois it's seen in: 8ic8egamik8i 'le coin, l'angles de la maison' 8ic8egami8i 'anse de riviere, enfoncement' 8ic8eki8i 'enfoncement de la prairie, maniere d'anse' This last form, phonemic /wiihkweehkiwi/, gets translated in modern Miami as 'bay, cove, bayou, bottomland'. Either way, it's not equivalent to English 'bottom', so I don't see how it's cognate with /wiikweepin$ia/ 'lynx'. David ---------- >From: "Alan H. Hartley" >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: ASB puza >Date: Tue, Aug 12, 2003, 7:06 pm > >> What other words have that initial? >> >>>In passing, the /wiikwee-/ may actually be /wiihkwee-/, referring to the >>>*bottom* of things. > > (Lake Superior) Ojibway: > > Nichols & Nyholm: > wiikwe-gamaa 'be a bay' (also as placename 'Fond du Lac') > > Baraga: > wiikwed 'bay' > wiikweya 'there is a bay' > wiikwe-gamigak aki 'in a corner of the earth' > wiikwe-ssagak 'in a corner of the room' > > Alan > From rankin at ku.edu Wed Aug 13 21:47:56 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:47:56 -0500 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: [RLR: ] I don't have a lot to add to the voluminous correspondence on ASB 'cat' except to mention that the way you *call* your cat in a whole string of European colonial (and other) languages is "pis, pis, pis" or "pus, pus, pus". This may or may not have anything to do with the ASB word, but I'm inclined to agree with David that English is the probable source. > I can barely decide where to begin with a discussion of the problems with your proposal. > MI wiikwee- > PSI *-truN (one might have plumped for *-kwuN, too) [RLR: ] I don't know that I'd even consider this etymon reconstructible in Proto-Siouan. It *may* be a very early loan (I don't recall its occurring in Mandan or Missouri River languages, so not PSi), but it may just as well have been borrowed multiple times from without and within Siouan. As John quite rightly points out, the cluster is not acceptable in the vast majority of Siouan phonologies. /tr/ just isn't possible, thus the systematic dissimilations. This means that the existence of the critter terms in -tirVN- in Iroquoian (working from Marianne's "Extending the rafters" paper, as I recall), where they are reconstructible, became interesting and pertinent. Likewise the Yuchi term in -tyVN- (given the y/r relationship within Siouan). I didn't see any claim of cognacy in John's posting. I think that what we assume is that this root is a "widespread form" that has been borrowed and reborrowed in the eastern part of the continent. All Siouanists would want to say, I expect, is that the word didn't likely originate with Siouan because of its phonology. This is not the only animal term that has diffused widely. Mary Haas discussed the 'bison' term and Michael Nichols has collected a large group of such Wanderwoerter over the years, especially from the West. > B. You are proposing to explain the initial w- in the Miami form from a PreDakotan initial *w- from one or another of several sources, but the *w- is not even reconstructable for the PreDakotan form. It doesn't need to be. *Wi- is reconstructible for a host of animal terms in PSi or Proto-Mississippi Valley Siouan -- far more than is possible by coincidence. If it's reconstructible at a higher node than pre-Dakotan, it can be inferred for that language unless there's evidence it was lost at an earlier node too. But we're not really talking about just Dakotan here; this term is found all over Mississippi Valley Siouan and also in Biloxi. > C. You are proposing that Proto-Siouan *-truN ' panther, mountain lion' is cognate with or in some other way related to Proto-Iroquoian *ti:l-i/oN 'skunk' (see cognates in previous email), despite the difference in meanings and the problem of where the vowel separating the consonants came from in Iroquoian or went to in Siouan. > D. You are proposing that Proto-Siouan *-truN 'panther, mountain lion' is cognate with a purposed Yuchi form atyuNne 'wildcat'. No such form exists! (Please check your sources before citing data from other languages, even in emails; otherwise, you run the risk, as here (and with the gloss for the Mohawk word ('skunk', not 'panther or mountain lion'), of creating new or perpetuating old ghost forms.) A check of Bill Ballard's . . . That is *Lew* Ballard. I tried "Bill" with him when I first met him and got corrected. Nowadays he accepts "William" but not Bill. > . . . English-Yuchi lexicon shows that the Yuchi word for 'wildcat' is $athy at N ($ = s hachek, @N = nasal open o). He also cites a form from Gunther Wagner, cat' an' e ($at?ane) which is not the same word. $athy at N also means 'raccoon'. I have seen no evidence (other cognate sets) suggesting that Proto-Siouan *tr corresponds to either Yuchi thy or t?, and there is no explanation for the initial $a- or final - at N or -ane in Yuchi. I've seen no claim of cognacy for this term. John is citing it from a DOS version of the Comparative Siouan Dict. that didn't have the fonts to reproduce Ballard's rounded V preceding the nasal. That is corrected in Windows fonts. Any central or back vowel borrowed into Siouan with a following N will be adapted as uN or aN. Whether it was schwa, A, open O, close O or U in the source language doesn't matter. The semantics remain difficult, but the result in Siouan is uniform. We've seen from the Iroquoian discussion that the semantic questions lie there (where the form appears to be reconstructible). This may suggest a single borrowing into Siouan at a considerably earlier time, but it's very hard to say. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Aug 13 22:48:30 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:48:30 -0700 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: One thing that I find interesting about all these European 'cat' words being borrowed into Native languages is that they're ALL from p-initial forms, like 'puss' or 'poes'. Oddly, NO language that's been mentioned here so far borrowed plain old English 'cat', unless that's what's behind Ojibwe /gaazhagens/ 'cat'. > [RLR: ] I don't have a lot to add to the voluminous correspondence on ASB > 'cat' except to mention that the way you *call* your cat in a whole string of > European colonial (and other) languages is "pis, pis, pis" or "pus, pus, pus". > This may or may not have anything to do with the ASB word, but I'm inclined to > agree with David that English is the probable source. From arem8 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 00:44:34 2003 From: arem8 at hotmail.com (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:44:34 -0400 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: Oh, this is *very* interesting, and even better. There was a famous cove in the Wabash known as /pin$iwamootayi/, the 'cat's belly'. This place name subsequently gave its name to the stream running into the cove, which today is known as Wildcat Creek. Michael >From: "David Costa" >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: ASB puza >Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:28:21 -0700 > >[Sorry for the prolonged non-Siouan digressions here...] > >It's also seen in Ottawa /wiikwe/ 'bay' (from Rhodes' dictionary). > >Anyway, I thought of that comparison too, but that initial doesn't mean >'bottom'. It actually seems to mean 'corner, cove, angle', as in those last >two Ojibwe examples. In old Illinois it's seen in: > >8ic8egamik8i 'le coin, l'angles de la maison' >8ic8egami8i 'anse de riviere, enfoncement' >8ic8eki8i 'enfoncement de la prairie, maniere d'anse' > >This last form, phonemic /wiihkweehkiwi/, gets translated in modern Miami >as >'bay, cove, bayou, bottomland'. > >Either way, it's not equivalent to English 'bottom', so I don't see how >it's >cognate with /wiikweepin$ia/ 'lynx'. > >David > > > >---------- > >From: "Alan H. Hartley" > >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > >Subject: Re: ASB puza > >Date: Tue, Aug 12, 2003, 7:06 pm > > > > >> What other words have that initial? > >> > >>>In passing, the /wiikwee-/ may actually be /wiihkwee-/, referring to >the > >>>*bottom* of things. > > > > (Lake Superior) Ojibway: > > > > Nichols & Nyholm: > > wiikwe-gamaa 'be a bay' (also as placename 'Fond du Lac') > > > > Baraga: > > wiikwed 'bay' > > wiikweya 'there is a bay' > > wiikwe-gamigak aki 'in a corner of the earth' > > wiikwe-ssagak 'in a corner of the room' > > > > Alan > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Aug 14 03:17:45 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:17:45 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Aug 2003, David Costa wrote: > Oddly, NO language that's been mentioned here so far borrowed plain > old English 'cat', unless that's what's behind Ojibwe /gaazhagens/ > 'cat'. Looks like the word for ice cream to me. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Aug 14 03:47:48 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:47:48 -0600 Subject: ASB puza (corners and containers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Aug 2003, David Costa wrote: > It's also seen in Ottawa /wiikwe/ 'bay' (from Rhodes' dictionary). > > Anyway, I thought of that comparison too, but that initial doesn't mean > 'bottom'. It actually seems to mean 'corner, cove, angle', as in those last > two Ojibwe examples. In old Illinois it's seen in: ... Interestingly there's a set *(i-)reet(e) in Proto-Siouan that has more or less the sort of coverage. Not related, of course, to the Algonquian set in any way that I am aware. Cr dee'sa 'on the bank, edge' Hi ree'ta 'edge, rim' Te/Sa c^hete' 'bottom of vessel' Te ic^he'te 'lip or rim of vessel' Wi ree'c^ 'bottom' OP idhe'de 'corner of mouth' Ks ye'j^e 'peninsula, inside bend of a stream' Os dhe'ce(waspe) 'dregs' The c^h is a bit odd in Dakotan. One would expect *yete, given y < *r, and c^h < *y. The only way this might work (from my perspective) would be if the form were actually *(i)-yeet(e), where *i is, of course, the third person inalienable 'its'. In that case, it would be the *r reflexes in Dhegiha which were odd-balls, resulting from rhoticism of *y in the environment *i _ V. The i- in the Teton form might well be i 'mouth', then, but that really only makes sense if we take c^hete' 'bottom of vessel' as a part for whole reference to the entire vessel in this case, i.e., ic^he'te = 'mouth of vessel', not 'mouth of bottom of vessel'. On the other hand, if i- is a possessive here, then we have c^hete' 'bottom of vessel' = 'curve of vessel' and ic^he'te 'its lip' = 'its curve (of vessel)'. The latter is semantically clearer, but phonologically less clear (at least for me). JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Aug 14 04:03:43 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 22:03:43 -0600 Subject: Just 2 minor notes on realia (was: A little more on Iroquoian) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030811201647.009fa1f0@pop3.netcologne.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, Heike B?deker wrote: > ... , which I'd scientifically preferred to refer to as puma concolor. > There has been some debate on whether to group this species together > with the very archaic golden cats (profelis spp.), caracals (caracal > caracal), possibly also servals (leptailurus serval), but there seems > no consensus about this (maybe cold comfort to historical linguists > that biologists have this type of group-problems, too...). ... By way of background, I belive taxonomists have waffled over the years (even the last 50 years) over whether to classify all (or most) felidae in one large genus Felis, or in several - Felis (sensu stricto), Panthera, Lynx, Puma, Caracal, Profelis, Leptailurus, etc. I think the latter approach is becoming more common (again). The innocent linguist, conslting reference works from a variety of sources and times is easily caught unawares. I've always found cases where the specific (the second term) changes gender as the genus changes gender to be particularly exciting ... And then of course there are specifics that are invariant across one or more genders in their Latinate form - really cool. Or how about Morus rubra 'Mulberry'? Tree names in -us are feminine in Latin! Oooeee! JEK From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Aug 14 03:56:58 2003 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 22:56:58 -0500 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: I find this very interesting too, and I think it may say a lot about the mechanics of borrowing. Was this really straight-up borrowing from standard English, or was "puss" actually the standard "Indian" term for "cat" in a jargon used by frontiersmen and traders to communicate with the Indians wherever they met them? Can we be sure that "puss" is even any more native to English than it is to the various Indian languages that evidently borrowed the term? I've just been looking for what I could find about this word in some etymological dictionaries. These seem to agree that the origin of the word is obscure. It exists notably in English, Dutch (poes), Low German, Norwegian, Danish, dialectal Swedish, Irish, Gaelic (all puus or pus) and Lithuanian (with 'zh' in place of 's'). It is not the standard word for "cat" in any of these languages, but is used for calling or naming cats. (Romanian, however, seems to have taken the word and added a diminutive to get their standard word for "cat", pisica.) Except for Romanian, these are all languages of the Baltic and North Sea area. In English, Norwegian and Danish, at least, the word can also mean "hare" or "rabbit", though "cat" seems to be the predominant meaning. In English, at least, it doesn't seem to be attested from the pre-modern period. I couldn't find it in dictionaries of Old English, Middle English, or Old Icelandic. The earliest reference in the Oxford English Dictionary is from 1530, with someone mentioning "puss, my cat". (The term "puss" precedes the diminutive term "pussy", which apparently doesn't show up until the 1700's.) I'm wondering if the term couldn't be explained as follows: First, we have the Proto-Algonquian term *pes^iwa for "feline". This word evolves to something like *poos in some east coast Algonquian dialects. Somewhere around 1500, North Atlantic sailors of the English/Teutonic sphere begin to reach the northeast coast of North America. Intercourse is established, and the sailors find that the Indian term for their ship-board cat is something like "puss". They pick up this term, and use it humerously on cats from there on. This usage becomes common with sailors of this region, and the word finds its way back into their home countries. Later, as English/Teutonic peoples begin to settle and trade in North America, they always revert hopefully to the Indian term "puss" when they want to refer to a cat in "Indian". The various Indian peoples, for their part, pick up on the term used by the whites, and adopt it from the trade jargon into their own languages. A couple of questions here: Could we get an expansion of the acronyms BF and PC for those of us who are Algonquian-challenged? Also, without presuppositions about which way borrowing is supposed to have gone, are BF poos, PC poosii- and Penobscot p at so (@ = schwa) reasonable reflexes of Proto-Algonquian? Thanks to everyone for this discussion. It's been very interesting! Rory "David Costa" cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: ASB puza owner-siouan at lists.c olorado.edu 08/13/2003 05:48 PM Please respond to siouan One thing that I find interesting about all these European 'cat' words being borrowed into Native languages is that they're ALL from p-initial forms, like 'puss' or 'poes'. Oddly, NO language that's been mentioned here so far borrowed plain old English 'cat', unless that's what's behind Ojibwe /gaazhagens/ 'cat'. > [RLR: ] I don't have a lot to add to the voluminous correspondence on ASB > 'cat' except to mention that the way you *call* your cat in a whole string of > European colonial (and other) languages is "pis, pis, pis" or "pus, pus, pus". > This may or may not have anything to do with the ASB word, but I'm inclined to > agree with David that English is the probable source. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Aug 14 04:22:24 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 22:22:24 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: <3F37F625.1010004@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > > Tigers? Would this be jaguars or ocelots? > > JEK > > In Amer. use, usually 'cougar', ... OK. I asked because the source you cited opposed tigers to cat-a-mounts, which I usually take to be Felis concolor, which, incidentally, in Colorado is almost invariably called a mountain lion. > "we find numbers of wolves, some tigers, Cat-a-mounts, (Pichous) ..." Returning to an issue Heike raised, Kurten and Anderson (op. cit., p. 194) report "D. B. Adams (personal communication, 1979) has suggested that the puma and Acinonyx [cheetas] have a common origin, and Acinonyx studeri does have a number of pumalike characters (Savage, 1960)." Oddly enough, several species (or evolutionary stages?) of Acynonyx have been identified in Pleistocene North America (K & A, pp. 192-194). And, for that matter, also "lions," or at least members of the Panthera extreme of Felis. Pleistocene North America seems to have been a very different sort of place. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Aug 14 04:50:04 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 22:50:04 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Aug 2003, Rory M Larson wrote: > I'm wondering if the term couldn't be explained as follows: First, we > have the Proto-Algonquian term *pes^iwa for "feline". This word > evolves to something like *poos in some east coast Algonquian > dialects. Somewhere around 1500, North Atlantic sailors of the > English/Teutonic sphere begin to reach the northeast coast of North > America. Intercourse is established, and the sailors find that the > Indian term for their ship-board cat is something like "puss". That's at least an extremely interesting hypothesis. I wonder what Indoeuropean-based etymologists would make of it? A lot would depend on an exact dating and maybe locations of the first citations of the European forms, and on the availability of suitable model forms. You might want to look also at Basque and Portuguese. I believe there are traces of a Basque-based pidgin in New England - an article in Anthropological Linguistics? Most of the very early contact with New England and adjacent areas involved the whaling and cod-fishing industries, and I have the impression that it's thought that this began before Columbus' voyages, or not long after, and more or less independently of them. The whalers and fishermen processed their catch on shore, especially on off-shore islands and overwintered in some cases to do this - which certainly produced pre-Colonial contact. They were generally secretive about their activities to avoid competition, and their activity is more evidenced archaeologically and linguistically (the Basque pidgin) (and by the evidence of their catches) than in narrative documents. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Aug 14 04:56:51 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:56:51 -0700 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: > A couple of questions here: Could we get an expansion of the acronyms BF and > PC for those of us who are Algonquian-challenged? Also, without > presuppositions about which way borrowing is supposed to have gone, are BF > poos, PC poosii- and Penobscot p at so (@ = schwa) reasonable reflexes of > Proto-Algonquian? I think 'BF' is Blackfoot; I'm not sure what 'PC' is supposed to stand for; among Algonquianists, it usually stands for 'Plains Cree', but the Plains Cree form for 'cat' is /pisiw/ (unless it also borrowed the English word). The Cree form and Penobscot /p at so/ are both regular from Proto-Algonquian */pe$iwa/ ('$' = s-hacek). I think the historical development of Blackfoot from Proto-Algonquian is too ill-understood to be sure whether 'poos' could come from */pe$iwa/. At least, *I* don't know for sure. Incidentally, some Algonquian languages of New England also seem to have European loans for 'cat': Pequot Mohegan Massachusett & plural Nipmuck The Mohegan-Pequot and Massachusett forms, at least, seem to be phonemic /po:hpo:hs/. Dave From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Thu Aug 14 09:07:08 2003 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (Heike =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=F6deker?=) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:07:08 +0200 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 21:56 13.08.03 -0700, David Costa wrote: > > A couple of questions here: Could we get an expansion of the acronyms > BF and > > PC for those of us who are Algonquian-challenged? Also, without > > presuppositions about which way borrowing is supposed to have gone, are BF > > poos, PC poosii- and Penobscot p at so (@ = schwa) reasonable reflexes of > > Proto-Algonquian? If asked this way: no, because the former two and the latter are two distinct etyma. >I think 'BF' is Blackfoot; I'm not sure what 'PC' is supposed to stand for; >among Algonquianists, it usually stands for 'Plains Cree', Yep. >but the Plains Cree form for 'cat' is /pisiw/ (unless it also borrowed the >English word). Indeed, as well as French minou. >I think the historical development of Blackfoot from Proto-Algonquian is >too ill-understood to be sure whether 'poos' could come from */pe$iwa/. At >least, *I* don't know for sure. Well, we at least have Proulx' outline... according to which the expected reflex of *pe?iwa would be a hypothetical **pihsi (in standard orthography). But then, BF uses a different basic term anyway: nat??yo (with accretive nasal, occasionally subject to initial change, and AFAIK nevertheless without Algonquian cognate... Somehow I couldn't help being vaguely reminded of the makeup of the Athapaskan word for "lynx" as outlined by Pinnow, which looks like a categorizer-formation "the one who ...es", just that in both cases one can't indentify an underlying verbal root, e.g. as in lynx from PIE *leukw- referring to the glowing eyes, or maybe also whatever the bobcat did in the pumpkin field... [eating the turkey raw? but no, this was the maize field IIRC...], but this is all too speculative...). All the best, Heike From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Aug 14 13:52:55 2003 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:52:55 -0500 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > You might want to look also at Basque and Portuguese. I believe there are > traces of a Basque-based pidgin in New England - an article in > Anthropological Linguistics? P. Bakker in Anthropol. Ling. XXXI. (1989) 117-147 From kopris at flash.net Thu Aug 14 14:03:31 2003 From: kopris at flash.net (CRAIG KOPRIS) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 07:03:31 -0700 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Before trying to assign a source language to cat terms, it might be best to rule out onomatopeia first! I've encountered the claim (I don't have the reference handy anymore) that (domestic) cat terms around the world are usually based on either: @ = schwa $ = esh T = pharyngealized voiceless alveolar stop 1. the sound a cat makes; e.g., English 'meow', Chinese 'miao' 2. an intermittent high-frequency sound that attracts a cat's attention (pspspspsps); e.g. English 'pussy', Pashto 'p@$ey' 3. another call to get a cat's attention (ktktktk); e.g. English 'cat', 'kitten', Arabic 'q at Ta' I wouldn't be surprised if the ancient Egyptians, who domesticated the cat in the first place, used one of the onomatopeic "roots". Craig Kopris --- Rory M Larson wrote: > Can we be sure that "puss" is even any more native > to > English than it is to the various Indian languages > that > evidently borrowed the term? From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Aug 14 14:45:06 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:45:06 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: <20030814140331.69868.qmail@web80208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, CRAIG KOPRIS wrote: > Before trying to assign a source language to cat > terms, it might be best to rule out onomatopeia first! > I've encountered the claim (I don't have the > reference handy anymore) that (domestic) cat terms > around the world are usually based on either: ... > 1. the sound a cat makes; e.g., English 'meow', > Chinese 'miao' .... > 3. another call to get a cat's attention (ktktktk); > e.g. English 'cat', 'kitten', Arabic 'q at Ta' > > I wouldn't be surprised if the ancient Egyptians, who > domesticated the cat in the first place, used one of > the onomatopeic "roots". Gardiner's Egyptian Grammar 3rd Ed., p. 459, gives miw, where the i has a left opening hook over it and is apparently supposed to represent a y, i.e., myw (missing the vowels, of course). So, you're quite right. I hadn't realized that forms other than "meow" were considered onomatopoeic, and your Pashto form puts pVS forms further afield in IE as well. Webster's reports that kitten has evolved from a Old French diminutive form chaton. I gather kit is a back formation. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Aug 14 14:50:14 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:50:14 -0600 Subject: Just 2 minor notes on realia (was: A little more on Iroquoian) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Aug 2003, Koontz John E wrote: > By way of background, I beli[e]ve taxonomists have waffled over the > years (even the last 50 years) over whether to classify all (or most) > felidae in one large genus Felis, or in several ... The innocent > linguist, cons[u]lting reference works from a variety of sources and > times is easily caught unawares. It occurred to me that this could be misread - "innocent linguist" refers not to Heike, who seems to be a cat authority, but to the rest of us. JEK From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Thu Aug 14 15:18:40 2003 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:18:40 -0600 Subject: more onomatopoetic and mysterious cats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For what it's worth, the Wichita (Caddoan) word for the domestic cat is wi:yo:; given that this language has no word-initial [m], that has to be 'meow', it always seemed to me. The word I got for 'wild cat', whatever animal that might mean, is wi:yo:sko:ks; -s- connects nouns to other things in compounds; ko:ks is the adj. you use for naughty children, especially rebellious teenagers, or relatives who misbehave in various ways, or any kind of mildly unacceptable social behavior; it's usually glossed 'crazy', but 'wild' isn't far off. I have often wondered whether this is like the terms for 'shoe', 'house', 'chicken', etc., in that an older word has taken on a meaning for something from European culture, and the original entity is then described by a noun plus adjective combination (adj. usually being 'original' 'real', genuine' or, in this case 'wild'). Does the "meow" word lend itself to application to the bigger animals? Another hypothesis that I've entertained, though never collected any concrete evidence for, is that they had some kind of name-taboo custom not too long ago which meant you had to make up new words if the old word were part of the name of someone who died. If the original word for 'wildcat' were in someone's name and that taboo applied, "wi:yo:sko:ks" might well be a good euphemism to replace the newly forbidden term. They have enough other "descriptive" animal names to make me think this is a real possibility. Michael: they also have a word wate:ya:h, which no one can gloss precisely -- I get, puma, panther, etc., but also a description that it lives in the woods, near water, and can lure people toward it in the dark by sounding like a crying child or a crying woman. I've also had people tell me it was sort of half-cat, half-dog, solid black, with bright yellow eyes. One interpreter of it in a song text called it 'something powerful'. I have been suspecting that this is your "underwater cat", in the badly impoverished "cultural memory" of this dying culture. What do you think? David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Koontz John E wrote: > On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, CRAIG KOPRIS wrote: > > Before trying to assign a source language to cat > > terms, it might be best to rule out onomatopeia first! > > I've encountered the claim (I don't have the > > reference handy anymore) that (domestic) cat terms > > around the world are usually based on either: ... > > > 1. the sound a cat makes; e.g., English 'meow', > > Chinese 'miao' > > .... > > > 3. another call to get a cat's attention (ktktktk); > > e.g. English 'cat', 'kitten', Arabic 'q at Ta' > > > > I wouldn't be surprised if the ancient Egyptians, who > > domesticated the cat in the first place, used one of > > the onomatopeic "roots". > > Gardiner's Egyptian Grammar 3rd Ed., p. 459, gives miw, where the i has a > left opening hook over it and is apparently supposed to represent a y, > i.e., myw (missing the vowels, of course). So, you're quite right. > > I hadn't realized that forms other than "meow" were considered > onomatopoeic, and your Pashto form puts pVS forms further afield in IE as > well. > > Webster's reports that kitten has evolved from a Old French diminutive > form chaton. I gather kit is a back formation. > > JEK > From rankin at ku.edu Thu Aug 14 15:37:23 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:37:23 -0500 Subject: Just 2 minor notes on realia (was: A little more on Iroquoian ) Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Aug 2003, Koontz John E wrote: > By way of background, I beli[e]ve taxonomists have waffled over the > years (even the last 50 years) over whether to classify all (or most) > felidae in one large genus Felis, or in several ... I suppose this is, in part at least, a reflection of the shift in biological taxonomy from a phenetic (not phonetic!) basis to a cladistic one. Advances in DNA technology have made purely cladistic classification possible. This was an important aspect of the discussions surrounding the Greenberg/Amerind controversy. Greenberg's technique was unabashedly phenetic, and he said as much in his publications, praising the Linnean taxonomic procedures constantly as a model for linguists to follow. But linguists strongly favored cladistic models long before biologists did. I'm not sure many linguists ever saw these basic differences clearly. As for cats, we're stuck with folk taxonomies in any event, which is why we're having to deal with so many furry critters. The only example I know of in which English 'cat' may have been borrowed is Choctaw /katos/, but that may well be from Spanish 'gato(s)'. No term for felis cattus domesticus is reconstructible in Muskogean languages (Creek /poosi/, Choc. /katos/, etc.), but a term for 'tiger' something like */kowi/, is reconstructible AFAIK. Where's Jess when we need him? He probably has a gazillion sound symbolic cat terms. Bob From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Aug 14 18:29:22 2003 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:29:22 -0500 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: >> > A couple of questions here: Could we get an expansion of the acronyms >> BF and >> > PC for those of us who are Algonquian-challenged? Also, without >> > presuppositions about which way borrowing is supposed to have gone, are BF >> > poos, PC poosii- and Penobscot p at so (@ = schwa) reasonable reflexes of >> > Proto-Algonquian? > If asked this way: no, because the former two and the latter are two > distinct etyma. >>I think 'BF' is Blackfoot; I'm not sure what 'PC' is supposed to stand for; >>among Algonquianists, it usually stands for 'Plains Cree', > Yep. Thanks to David and Heike for answering my questions about this. Blackfoot and Plains Cree certainly are not in the right location geographically to be relevant to my hypothesis, and their /poos-/ forms are not from Proto-Algonquian *pe$iwa. That leaves us so far with Penobscot /p at so/, which is in the right place, and is a native term. Now I'm wondering what other Algonquian languages would have been represented 500 years ago along the northeast coast, especially from New England to the Gulf of St. Lawrence area. Do we have, or can we predict, the form of the *pe$iwa etymon in these languages? Also, what about their terms for hares and rabbits? Are any of these at all "puss"-like? Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Aug 14 19:29:55 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:29:55 -0600 Subject: more onomatopoetic and mysterious cats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Does the "meow" word lend itself to application to the bigger animals? It might not matter, once the term applied to a cat of any size, but I think bobcats and lynxes (Lynx spp.) do make fairly cat-like noises. I'm not sure for mountain lions (Puma). I've heard them described as "screaming," I think. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Aug 14 19:33:52 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:33:52 -0600 Subject: AOL Not Accepting Mail from List Message-ID: FYI, AOL has temporarily ceased accepting communications from the list because the University of Colorado, which hosts the list, is not filtering spam to AOL's satisfaction. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU Fri Aug 15 00:43:42 2003 From: John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:43:42 -0600 Subject: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Rory M Larson wrote: > I want to get this on the list before I get killed by a wildcat > or something. It's been gradually sinking into my consciousness, > through numerous corrections in my pronunciation by our speakers, > that they are actually making a distinction between the tenser, > full /e/ sound, as approximately in "late", and the lower or more > central /e/ sound as in "let". The last time I corresponded with > Ardis, she seemed to be coming to the same conclusion. > > Last night, Mrs. Alberta Canby gave me what seems to be a minimal > pair. It seems that in Omaha, the /he/ that means "horn" is > pronounced with the tense /e/ as in "late", while the /he/ that > means "louse" is pronounced with the more central /e/ as in "let". I haven't noticed this myself in the past, but I wouldn't attach a great deal of significance to that. LaFlesche didn't notice it, but was happy to write c-cedilla for both s and z. Dorsey does write e-breve, quite a lot, but I've always attributed this to overdifferentiation. David's e vs. E for more tense vs more lax seems reasonable to me. My first instinct would be to wonder if this was a correlate of length. What sort of intonation is there? What happens if you add an article or in compounds with the two different forms? What other forms might exhibit one or the other of the two e's? I've noticed that the e after aspirates is more lax, e.g., in tti=the [titHE]. Dorsey regularly writes this as t, perhaps indicating the same thing. Otherwise, note that hE 'louse' corresponds to Dakotan he'ya, while presumably he 'horn' might be inalienable from *ihe. I'm not sure if this is any help. If 'louse' were a contraction or reduction of *heya, I'd expect it to be the tense one. JEK From rood at spot.colorado.edu Thu Aug 14 22:51:50 2003 From: rood at spot.colorado.edu (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:51:50 -0600 Subject: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > If there is a difference here, how do we distinguish these two > forms of /e/ in NetSiouan? > > Thanks, > Rory I would advocate "E" for the lax version as being the closest a roman font can come to an epsilon. I don't think there is a difference between he 'horn' and he 'that' in Lakota, but they've dispensed with a lot of reconstructed vowel contrasts. We used to have fun with "He he he?" 'Is that a horn?' ('that'-'horn'-'question enclitic') when playing with language. The first one is always a bit louder and longer than the other two, but I'm sure that's attributable to sentence intonation. However, I'm willing to believe that Dhegiha might have some contrasts that L. doesn't. David David S. Rood 295 UCB Univ. of Colorado Boulder, CO 80305 303-492-2747 From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Aug 15 15:11:47 2003 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 10:11:47 -0500 Subject: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan? Message-ID: > Problem 1: Ken Miner found that ALL monosyllables in Winnebago (at least > for major categories like noun, verb, etc.) had long vowels in isolation. I > think that was a rule: no exceptions. If that's true throughout Siouan, > then differences should be neutralized in this environment, and contexts > with affixes should be sought. Winnebago clips the trailing vowels of a lot of words that would have two syllables in other languages, doesn't it? So would words like *s^uNke in Winnebago be something like /*s^uNk-/ in combining forms, but /*s^uNuNk/ when they stand alone? Rory From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 15 14:24:59 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 09:24:59 -0500 Subject: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan? Message-ID: > ...our speakers, that they are actually making a distinction between the tenser, full /e/ sound, as approximately in "late", and the lower or more central /e/ sound as in "let". I'm not surprised, but finding the source of the distinction may require some work. Like John, my first instinct is to attribute it to the long-neglected length distinction. We know there are clear minimal pairs for several different vowels and we know that V length is reconstructible. That may not clear up the problem however. Problem 1: Ken Miner found that ALL monosyllables in Winnebago (at least for major categories like noun, verb, etc.) had long vowels in isolation. I think that was a rule: no exceptions. If that's true throughout Siouan, then differences should be neutralized in this environment, and contexts with affixes should be sought. Problem 2: While I don't wish to alienate members of the list who may be speakers of Omaha or other Siouan languages, it is simply a fact that, as languages become moribund and their speakers use other languages, in this case English, the vast majority of the time, it is often the case that phonemic distinctions in the primary language (again English) interfere with perception of the phonological distinctions of the secondary language (here Omaha). /ey/ and /E/ are quite distinct in English and people may be carrying this distinction into their Omaha where they *perceive* it occurs even if they are pretty fluent. So a distinction that was maybe allophonic in Omaha starts to take on distinctiveness because it's phonemic in English. This probably shouldn't be producing minimal pairs by itself, but combined with a desire to differentiate homophones, it could. While it's generally been my feeling that most of the instrumental phonetic studies that have invaded phonology from phonetics in recent years are just "bean counting" and a general a waste of time from the point of view of "langue" (as opposed to "parole"), I think some studies of this sort with Siouan vowels might be revealing -- in ALL the languages we work with. We keep hearing these distinctions and keep getting our pronunciation corrected by speakers: it's high time we figured out just exactly what's what and then followed up in our phonological and grammatical studies. Dorsey did overdifferentiate on occasion, sometimes providing different spellings for apparent homophones, but until we understand the full picture, we can't say for sure where he did and where he didn't. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Aug 15 20:09:40 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 14:09:40 -0600 Subject: Experiencer Verb (Re: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Rory M Larson wrote: > I'm not familiar with the word ishkoNshkoN, and I may have > gotten it wrong. What I worked out with her, after some > negotiation, was: > > 1s: hE ama' oNnoN'shkoNshkoN > > 2s: hE ama' dhinoN'shkoNshkoN > > 3s: hE ama' noNshkoN'shkoN > > If this is right, it should be an active verb describing > the activities of the (all-too) proximate lice with respect > to a hapless patient. I took the instrumental prefix to be > noN- 'by foot', and I supposed the verb root to be > shkoN 'to move'. The reduplication of this root would > indicate the massive plurality of the lice, and the > sentence would then mean: 'The lice are running about > all over the place with respect to [the patient]'. Yeah, given the inflection it turns into a transitive verb, with lice as agent and the afflicted person as the patient 'the lice foot-move one here and there'. Oh well. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Aug 15 20:17:34 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 14:17:34 -0600 Subject: Tarifit Digression In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030815204611.00a11d80@pop3.netcologne.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Heike B?deker wrote: > Even though it is somewhat off-topic... but I never had the opportunity to > work with such a consultant, albeit having been curious as a lynx since > long whether Berber lgs. actually have pharyngeals or epiglottals -? I'm afraid I would not be the right person to ask. What I heard was vowel lowering. You might try Zygmunt Frajzyngier at the University of Colorado, who was the professor. JEK From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Aug 14 21:57:09 2003 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:57:09 -0500 Subject: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan? Message-ID: I want to get this on the list before I get killed by a wildcat or something. It's been gradually sinking into my consciousness, through numerous corrections in my pronunciation by our speakers, that they are actually making a distinction between the tenser, full /e/ sound, as approximately in "late", and the lower or more central /e/ sound as in "let". The last time I corresponded with Ardis, she seemed to be coming to the same conclusion. Last night, Mrs. Alberta Canby gave me what seems to be a minimal pair. It seems that in Omaha, the /he/ that means "horn" is pronounced with the tense /e/ as in "late", while the /he/ that means "louse" is pronounced with the more central /e/ as in "let". I think both of these terms are pretty common throughout MVS. I'd be interested in any observations anyone could offer about their comparative phonology in whatever language they are familiar with. If there is a difference here, how do we distinguish these two forms of /e/ in NetSiouan? Thanks, Rory From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Aug 14 21:46:59 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:46:59 -0700 Subject: even MORE non-Siouan digressions about cats Message-ID: > Now I'm wondering what other Algonquian languages would have been represented > 500 years ago along the northeast coast, especially from New England to the > Gulf of St. Lawrence area. Do we have, or can we predict, the form of the > *pe$iwa etymon in these languages? Also, what about their terms for hares and > rabbits? Are any of these at all "puss"-like? Well, as long as you're ASKING... :-) I won't bore people with all the data, but the closest the 'rabbit' word comes in any of these languages to the 'cat' word is that some of these languages have reflexes of Proto-Algonquian */wa:po:swa/ 'rabbit' (like Micmac /wapus/). But that word originally meant something like 'white game animal' in Proto-Algonquian, segmented as */wa:p-/ + /-o:swa/, so I don't think it relates to the 'puss' words in any way. The 'mountain lion' etymon that pops up in the northernmost languages here is sort of interesting, tho I can't say if Gordon Day's 'much tail' etymology is really correct. best, David ********************** Micmac: pittalu 'lion' kajuwewj, miyawj, tqoqwe:j 'cat' (last specifically 'domestic cat') tqoqwej 'bobcat' (yes, a length distinction in the final-syllable vowels really is supposed to signal this meaning difference. 'j' = alveopalatal affricate, 'q' = velar fricative [x]) Maliseet-Passamaquoddy: psuwis 'cat' p at su 'bobcat' pihtal 'lion' apiq at sik@n 'lynx' (I don't know the etymology of this one) ('q' = /kw/; '@' = schwa, here substituted for LeSourd's 'o') Penobscot: p@`so 'bobcat' p@`s at wis 'bobcat kitten, domestic cat' pi'htAlo 'mountain lion' ('A' = alpha, ` = grave accent, ' = acute accent) (can't find the Penobscot 'lynx' word) Western Abenaki: bitto^lo 'cougar' (Gordon Day says = 'much tail'; 'o^' = nasal vowel) b at zo 'wildcat, bobcat, lynx' wigw at di, wikwti 'bobcat, lynx' (Gordon Day says = 'no tail') minowiz 'a cat' (French 'minou' + Abenaki diminutive) (the resemblance of /wigw at di/ to the Miami-Illinois 'lynx' word is interesting, but probably just an accident) Massachusett: , 'lion' ('long tail') 'cat' Narragansett: 'the wildcat' (probably phonemic /p at s@w/, regular from PA */pe$iwa/) Nipmuck: , 'chat' 'loup cervier' Munsee: po':$i:$ 'cat' la:we:wapo':$i:$ 'bobcat' (/la:we:wi:/ = 'wild') (don't know what the 'cougar' word is) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Aug 15 20:32:19 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 14:32:19 -0600 Subject: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan? In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164D20@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > I believe that long vowels are another environment in which there tends to > be lowering (and/or nasalization). > > Works with ancient Greek and Church Slavic where PIE e: is/was more or less > [ae] ('ash'), but reflexes of Latin e: don't behave like that. Mixed > results, I'd guess. Another lowering environment - of the point of articulation of neighboring consonant type - is adjacent to h and ? (laryngeals). If these disappear, as they often do, you get an unconditioned (or no-longer conditioned) vowel alternation. > The only thing that occurs to me here is only partly pertinent. In Quapaw > the compound $uNke+akniN 'dog+sit.upon' = 'horse' has an /ea/ sequence, and > the whole thing came out phonetically [$unkaegni], where ae is again a low > front (accented in this case) vowel. This happens with OP hoN=egoN=chHe 'early morning', literally 'when (its) like night', which is hNgchHI. There'a tendency of finaly aN to become , also reflected here. ChHe (sure sounded like i or I to me) is a diminutive version of tHe. Dorsey shows raising as opposed to lowering in piazhi 'bad', writing it pizhi (well, he writes all the sounds differently, but that's the idea). JEK From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Thu Aug 14 20:13:30 2003 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (Heike =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=F6deker?=) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:13:30 +0200 Subject: more onomatopoetic and mysterious cats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 13:29 14.08.03 -0600, Koontz John E wrote: >It might not matter, once the term applied to a cat of any size, but I >think bobcats and lynxes (Lynx spp.) do make fairly cat-like noises. I'm >not sure for mountain lions (Puma). I've heard them described as >"screaming," I think. Both can produce a variety of a sounds actually, which I for one have a hard time imagining how to mistake for a domestic cat. Alas, I'm better at imitating these than describing in words (which is not so good for email, but surely was fun working with consultants in 3D :-)). Indeed one of the puma's calls has been described as sounding like a piercing scream by a woman :-))) The voice quality of lynxes I'd describe as rougher, not at all what one would naively expect of a "small cat" (which is less useful category anyway, not to speak of that it even had been proposed to group lynxes together with "big cats", just that lynxes seem around 4000 KY old while the panthera group only appeared around 700 KY BP together with major ecological restructurings, which also lead to the formation of the Euraso-Beringian tundra steppe). All the best, Heike From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Thu Aug 14 21:33:38 2003 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (Heike =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=F6deker?=) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:33:38 +0200 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 13:29 14.08.03 -0500, Rory M Larson wrote: >Now I'm wondering what other Algonquian languages would have been >represented 500 years ago along the northeast coast, especially from New >England to the Gulf of St. Lawrence area. The New England lgs. of older classifications (Micmac, Malecite-Passamoquoddy, "Etchemin", Eastern Abenaki incl. Penobscot, Western Abenaki, Loup A incl. Nipmuck, Loup B, Massachusett, Narraganset-Natick, Mohegan-Peqout-Montauk, Quiripi-Unquachog). To the current classification as Eastern Alg., btw, also the lgs. spoken South of Long Island via Virginia to Carolina are added (Eastern Long Island, Mahican, Munsee-Delaware, Unami-Delaware, Nanticoke, Powhatan, Carolina). >Do we have, or can we predict, the form of the *pe$iwa etymon in these >languages? The only item I could check at home was Malecite p at so "bobcat" (Szab?, Indianisches W?rterbuch: Malecite-Deutsch-Englisch, Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz 1981, p. 176), which is like the Penobscot reflex. Btw, in the same dictionary (p. 188) I find psowis, pl. psowiis at k "cat" ? I assume pso- = p at so-, but what is the remainder? >Also, what about their terms for hares and rabbits? Are any of these at >all "puss"-like? Ah... there's 3 etyma PCA *me?0aaposwa "rabbit" (Hewson #1845, incl. *-aaposw "quadruped", Hewson p. 241), PCA *me$weew- "rabbit" (Hewson #1887), PCA *waaposwa "rabbit" (Hewson #3474 incl. *-osw "quadruped", Hewson p. 248; same with *waaposw "white animal" Hewson #3473 with reflexes given Menomini waaposoohsEh "little rabbit" and Ojibwa waapooson? "rabbit"!!), two of which contain a, well, "puss"-like sequence, but actually these basically are formed from the "quadruped" medial, either with w- which is a merely formal initial (though like accretive nasals of pronominal origin, and functioning like the formal bases in Southern Wakashan, so nothing exotic about this), or with *me?0- "big" (as can be easily parsed from *me?0-aapeew-a "giant = big person", *me?0-eki0-wa "be big (animatum intransitivum) = big size"; Hewson, #1844, #1848). All the best, Heike From John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU Fri Aug 15 16:56:41 2003 From: John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 10:56:41 -0600 Subject: Experiencer Verb (Re: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Rory M Larson wrote: > The "louse" term was originally volunteered with an article: > > HE' ama' oNnoN'shkoNshkoN > > which she translated as: > > The bugs [which she later corrected to "head lice"] > are making my head itch. This is a beautiful example of an experiencer verb - inflects like a stative (stem ishkoNshkoN, apparently?) - but takes two arguments - the louse/lice and the person suffering them. I'd guess the i- governs he=ama here. On a phonetic note, you had ama' with final accent? Also, I'm assuming oNnoNshkoNshkoN represents oNthoNshkoNshkoN < oN + ishkoNshkoN, but it might be that noN- represents an instrumental, though I'd expect theoretically unnasalized na- 'spontaneous action' rather than noN- 'by foot'. This brings back interesting memories - I remember when head lice ran through my daughters' elementary school and we were all using the shampoo and combing with the special combs and keeping toys in bags and what not for weeks. From John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU Fri Aug 15 17:38:01 2003 From: John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:38:01 -0600 Subject: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Rory M Larson wrote: > Length may be a factor (see below). I think I've been hearing /E/ in > various intonational positions. The "louse" term was originally > volunteered with an article: > > HE' ama' oNnoN'shkoNshkoN > ["head lice"] are making my head itch. > > > What other forms might exhibit one or the other of the two e's? > > Well, the positionals /tHE/ and /kHE/, as you note below. I've also > got one of my techno-terms with a definite /E/ sound on the first > syllable. This one does not follow an aspiration. > > nE'xEtti > ... Let's see ... The environments in which vowels tend to lower (perceived as laxness by English speakers) are (thinking of Eskimo and Afro-Asiatic) - finally and next to consonants at certain articulation points, like next to uvulars. So Greenlandic qimmik 'dog' (hope I have this right!) sounds like qemmik. And I seem to recall that the standard orthography for Greenlandic writes e and o for final i and u. (I hope Willem will correct this, if I am off track!) In Arabic and Berber, aiu tend to sound like iu except next to pharyngeals where they sound like aeo. So when I was writing my final report for field methods (with Tarifit Berber) and I discovered I had written "Fatima" /fadhma/, not /fdhma/ I suspected I had misheard /fama/ and, sure enough, Arabic had /fat.ima/. (I hope Bruce will correct this, though I think he's wandering the Plains of North America at the moment.) I think that the "low next to uvular/pharyngeal" phenomenon is repeated in the Pacific Northwest languages, and it is also essentially comparable to the basis of "tongue-root retraction vowel harmony" systems as exhibited in West Africa, Chukchee, Nez Perce, etc. I believe that long vowels are another environment in which there tends to be lowering (and/or nasalization). Anyway, E in nexe (neghe?) might well be explained by x or gh. In he vs. hE it might be a matter of length, though the details are not clear to me. It is true that Winnebago lengthens all monosyllables, and that some of these (most, actually) revert to short when additional syllables are added, as in compounds. I suspect something similar might happen in OP, and that adding an enclitic like an article might well be a "shortening" environment. > Is it possible that the Dakotan form is a compound of *hE + *a, where > *a is some classifier like the /ama'/ used by our speaker? If so, the > /y/ would be epenthetic, but could still cause the preceding /E/ to > shift to /e/. That's pretty much what I've been arguing, i.e., that the -a is essentially a partical forming independent noun stems (an absolute marker, as they say), comparable to the -a added to s^uNka, and inducing the epenthetic y after the e of he: he + a => heya. I also agree that the initial a of OP akha and ama might well have the same historical origin as this absolute marker -a exhibited in Dakotan. I think the main problem with the absolute marker hypothesis in Dakotan is that Dakotanists are used to thinking of -a in CVC nouns as epenthetic, given the sainted memories of Boas and Deloria, who proposed that analysis, and the "non-epenthetic" cases (-ya) are not very numerous at present (since 1850 or so), so it's easy to treat them as an unconnected oddity of four or five stems. Also, regarding -a as a sort of enclitic absolute marker requires one to deal with -e' in similar terms, and a lot of analyses of Dakotan accent would have to be redone somewhat. The related inserted -a- in forms like thiyata is also uncommon and easily regarded as an oddity of the postpositional system which is already an array of oddities. In short, you don't get much mileage out of this absolute marker analysis in Dakotan and you have to rethink some "solved problems." From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Aug 15 03:51:31 2003 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:51:31 -0500 Subject: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan? Message-ID: > My first instinct would be to wonder if this was a correlate of length. > What sort of intonation is there? What happens if you add an article or > in compounds with the two different forms? Length may be a factor (see below). I think I've been hearing /E/ in various intonational positions. The "louse" term was originally volunteered with an article: HE' ama' oNnoN'shkoNshkoN which she translated as: The bugs [which she later corrected to "head lice"] are making my head itch. This seems to be something one says when one goes to scratch an itch on one's noNshki. > What other forms might exhibit one or the other of the two e's? Well, the positionals /tHE/ and /kHE/, as you note below. I've also got one of my techno-terms with a definite /E/ sound on the first syllable. This one does not follow an aspiration. nE'xEtti This is a type of frying pan or skillet. The word seems to be a compound of "pot" and "house". When the word for "pot", now "bucket", is used by itself, however, the sound and intonation seem to change. In /nE'xEtti/, the first vowel is a clear, stressed, brief /E/, as in the closed syllable "neck". The second vowel is unstressed, perhaps a bit schwa; I'm not sure what it's supposed to be, but it seems to inherit the preceding /E/ sound. Without the following /tti/, the first syllable seems to be lengthened, turned into an open syllable, intonated more complexly, and possibly made more tense, at least for part of its sequence. It might be something like about halfway between /nEE'x@/ and /nee'x@/, or perhaps fully /nee'x@/, where @ is schwa, and where the elongated first syllable is rising in both pitch and stress. I don't know if this makes sense, but that seems to be what I'm hearing. > I've noticed that the e after aspirates is more lax, e.g., in tti=the > [titHE]. Dorsey regularly writes this as t, perhaps > indicating the same thing. > Otherwise, note that hE 'louse' corresponds to Dakotan he'ya, while > presumably he 'horn' might be inalienable from *ihe. I'm not sure if this > is any help. If 'louse' were a contraction or reduction of *heya, I'd > expect it to be the tense one. Is it possible that the Dakotan form is a compound of *hE + *a, where *a is some classifier like the /ama'/ used by our speaker? If so, the /y/ would be epenthetic, but could still cause the preceding /E/ to shift to /e/. Anyway, thanks for the astute advice. I'll try to collect more examples and play with environments. Rory From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Fri Aug 15 18:16:55 2003 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:16:55 -0700 Subject: Speech Analyzer Message-ID: John undervalues SIL's Speech Analyzer, which is actually a very sophisticated program, recently in an updated version. Among other things, it does create spectrograms. Wally > For what it's worth - the SIL people distribute some software - free I > think - which works with standard sound cards to do things like pitch > contours and at least some other things. Maybe not sonograms. So I think > that as long as you have a microphone and a laptop with a standard sound > card you can do at least rudimentary analysis of this sort in the field > today. You need some disk space for the sound files. From John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU Fri Aug 15 17:41:54 2003 From: John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:41:54 -0600 Subject: Instrumental Studies (RE: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan?) In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164D1D@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > ..., I think some studies of this sort with Siouan vowels might be > revealing -- in ALL the languages we work with. We keep hearing these > distinctions and keep getting our pronunciation corrected by speakers: > it's high time we figured out just exactly what's what and then > followed up in our phonological and grammatical studies. For what it's worth - the SIL people distribute some software - free I think - which works with standard sound cards to do things like pitch contours and at least some other things. Maybe not sonograms. So I think that as long as you have a microphone and a laptop with a standard sound card you can do at least rudimentary analysis of this sort in the field today. You need some disk space for the sound files. JEK From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 15 18:34:00 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 13:34:00 -0500 Subject: Speech Analyzer Message-ID: I somehow missed getting the posting on which Wally's comment is based -- don't know why. But if this program is either free or reasonably inexpensive, Rory could do some work "on the spot" with what his speakers are producing. Spectrograms could certainly allow quantity measurements. If the software doesn't allow for making vowel plots, the fellow who introduced William Labov in East Lansing last week mentioned that he (Labov) had developed the program called "Plotnik" that makes such info visible. Oops, my email program just announced receiving John's posting AFTER Wally's reply to it. Go figure. Bob > John undervalues SIL's Speech Analyzer, which is actually a very sophisticated program, recently in an updated version. Among other things, it does create spectrograms. Wally > For what it's worth - the SIL people distribute some software - free I > think - which works with standard sound cards to do things like pitch > contours and at least some other things. Maybe not sonograms. So I think > that as long as you have a microphone and a laptop with a standard sound > card you can do at least rudimentary analysis of this sort in the field > today. You need some disk space for the sound files. From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 15 18:21:50 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 13:21:50 -0500 Subject: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan? Message-ID: > Problem 1: Ken Miner found that ALL monosyllables in Winnebago (at least > for major categories like noun, verb, etc.) had long vowels in isolation. I > think that was a rule: no exceptions. If that's true throughout Siouan, > then differences should be neutralized in this environment, and contexts > with affixes should be sought. Winnebago clips the trailing vowels of a lot of words that would have two syllables in other languages, doesn't it? So would words like *s^uNke in Winnebago be something like /*s^uNk-/ in combining forms, but /*s^uNuNk/ when they stand alone? The Ho CaNk's clip final, unaccented -e. But in order to have an unaccented final -e, WI would have to have had an organic long vowel in the first syllable of a 2 syll. word already, I think. So I can't remember if that particular V alternates or not. You'd need to consult Miner's IJAL paper(s) or the nice survey of the controversy in Bruce Hays' metrical phonology book. But, yes, I think your characterization of the alternation is basically correct. Whether there would be a difference in vowel quality or quantity in the noun with /he/ as opposed to /he-ama/, I couldn't begin to guess, but in WI adding an affix could change things. Interesting questions that deserve full treatment in all Siouan languages! More interesting, I must say, than cats. :-) Bob From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Aug 15 17:33:15 2003 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 12:33:15 -0500 Subject: Experiencer Verb (Re: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan?) Message-ID: > This is a beautiful example of an experiencer verb - inflects like a > stative (stem ishkoNshkoN, apparently?) - but takes two arguments - the > louse/lice and the person suffering them. I'd guess the i- governs he=ama > here. > On a phonetic note, you had ama' with final accent? Yes. I have the feeling that it was short, clear, and somewhat lax, perhaps a bit "uh"-like. At first I was trying to parse the whole string /hE'ama`/ as one word (where ' represents primary accent and ` represents a secondary accent). > Also, I'm assuming oNnoNshkoNshkoN represents oNthoNshkoNshkoN < oN + > ishkoNshkoN, but it might be that noN- represents an instrumental, though > I'd expect theoretically unnasalized na- 'spontaneous action' rather than > noN- 'by foot'. I'm not familiar with the word ishkoNshkoN, and I may have gotten it wrong. What I worked out with her, after some negotiation, was: 1s: hE ama' oNnoN'shkoNshkoN 2s: hE ama' dhinoN'shkoNshkoN 3s: hE ama' noNshkoN'shkoN If this is right, it should be an active verb describing the activities of the (all-too) proximate lice with respect to a hapless patient. I took the instrumental prefix to be noN- 'by foot', and I supposed the verb root to be shkoN 'to move'. The reduplication of this root would indicate the massive plurality of the lice, and the sentence would then mean: 'The lice are running about all over the place with respect to [the patient]'. Rory From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Fri Aug 15 18:45:35 2003 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (Heike =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=F6deker?=) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:45:35 +0200 Subject: even MORE non-Siouan digressions about cats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 14:46 14.08.03 -0700, David Costa wrote: >Maliseet-Passamaquoddy: > >psuwis 'cat' >p at su 'bobcat' >pihtal 'lion' Szab? (p. 177) gives piihtal, pl. piihtal at wok, which seems to contain the same initial as piihtaakw at et II, piihtakwso AI (p.176f) "it / s/he is long", so I guess this is the usual descriptive term for *mountain* lion. >apiq at sik@n 'lynx' (I don't know the etymology of this one) Szab? (p. 37), alas, doesn't have this lemma, but the initial seems the same as in apikwseehs, pl. apikwseehsowok "rat" ? any ideas about this one maybe? All the best, Heike From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Fri Aug 15 18:56:31 2003 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (Heike =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=F6deker?=) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:56:31 +0200 Subject: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:38 15.08.03 -0600, Koontz John E wrote: >I think that the "low next to uvular/pharyngeal" phenomenon is repeated in >the Pacific Northwest languages, In Southern Wakashan /i/ is lowered quite extremely to [E] because actually these are epiglottals aka adyteals as also occuring e.g. in Cushitic or Eastern Caucasian lgs., not pharyngeals as in Arabic. Even though it is somewhat off-topic... but I never had the opportunity to work with such a consultant, albeit having been curious as a lynx since long whether Berber lgs. actually have pharyngeals or epiglottals -? >and it is also essentially comparable to the basis of "tongue-root >retraction vowel harmony" systems as exhibited >in West Africa, Chukchee, Nez Perce, etc. Yep. >I believe that long vowels are another environment in which there tends to >be lowering (and/or nasalization). But also nasalization the other way round to lowering, just thinking of French or Cayuga... All the best, Heike From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 15 18:46:47 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 13:46:47 -0500 Subject: Different /e/ phonemes in Siouan? Message-ID: > I believe that long vowels are another environment in which there tends to be lowering (and/or nasalization). Works with ancient Greek and Church Slavic where PIE e: is/was more or less [ae] ('ash'), but reflexes of Latin e: don't behave like that. Mixed results, I'd guess. > Is it possible that the Dakotan form is a compound of *hE + *a, where > *a is some classifier like the /ama'/ used by our speaker? If so, the > /y/ would be epenthetic, but could still cause the preceding /E/ to > shift to /e/. The only thing that occurs to me here is only partly pertinent. In Quapaw the compound $uNke+akniN 'dog+sit.upon' = 'horse' has an /ea/ sequence, and the whole thing came out phonetically [$unkaegni], where ae is again a low front (accented in this case) vowel. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Aug 16 05:33:14 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:33:14 -0600 Subject: Cleft/Focus Example Message-ID: I noticed this great example of an "e-cleft" in Omaha-Ponca this evening. It's one I missed in preparing my paper for the Siouan and Caddoan Conference because this one doesn't show the "e" as enclitic to the noun as recorded in the texts. I include the context, because it's needed to show the focus. The over all context involves a story in which the hero, guesting with four Thunder-beings, is successively offered various inedible things to eat, each of which the Thunder-beings call by various innocent names. --- Dorsey 1890:181.11-12 "WattaN'ze=skidhe bdhaNze=xc^i u'wagihaN=i=ga!" a=bi=ama. corn sweet very small-(grained?) cook for them he1 said He' (=?)e wak[h?]e akh=ama. lice that he1 was meaning GaN, "E'gaN aNwaNdhatha=b=az^i," a=bi=ama And so like that we do not eat it he2 said --- I think that "Lice were what he meant." is a very suitable translation for the second sentence in this context, and that a focussing cleft is what adding the e here produces. (Oo, a cleft of my own!) The subject here is implicit in the verb (but governs the imperfect auxiliary akha), and this is an object cleft. The sentence certainly doesn't mean "He meant those (particular, previously mentioned) lice." In fact, the lice haven't been mentioned previously, though one might argue that they could perhaps be assumed by the hearers on the strength of corpses of men previously mentioned. I recall an article on Eskimo antipassives in which it was pointed out that rocks were always definite, even if not previously mentioned, because if there was one thing you could assume in an arctic landscape, it was rocks. Similarly, humans may imply lice, but I don't think this is what is going on here! It's also useful to note the verb u'wagihaN=i=ga 'cook it for them!' in the first sentence. The underlying verb is uhaN' 'to cook'. The dative is ugi'haN. Because the object is plural the u- prefix is accented, i.e., derived from *wo < wa-o'-, where historical wa- is the actual plural object prefix. But, various u-verbs with animate objects (dative object in this case) add wa- 'them' anyway, pleonastically, as it were. With the a- and i- locatives wa- is regularly added before the locative (producing wa'- and we'-), but with this locative it follows. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Aug 16 06:02:09 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:02:09 -0600 Subject: Horns and Lice Message-ID: Following up on Rory's "two e's" conundrum, I looked to see if Dorsey happened to write one of the other of these two forms - he 'horn' and hE (?) 'louse', as Rory has suggested - with e-breve. I did discovered he'=khe(breve) and he'=the(breve), both 'the horn' (at various angles), but both 'horn', but both 'horn' and 'louse/lice' are always just he'. However, for what it is worth, I did notice that in compounds he 'horn' is fairly consistantly not accented when initial, or, if accented, is immediately followed by an accented first syllable in the next element, even though this produces two accented syllables in a row with the second being an element not normally accented (like the first syllable of a verb with an inner instrumental). Dorsey has a pronounced tendency to regularize the form of a word, and he may simply have been in the habit of writing 'horn' as he'. So, we have he=ga'zaza 'Split Horns', he=ba'zab=az^i 'Unsplintered Horns', he'=ga'zaza=xti 'Horns Very Full of Snags (Tines?)', he'=z^aN[']kka=ttaN'ga 'Big Forked (= Juvenile) Horns', he=saN'nide 'Horn on One Side', he=gha'p[p]a 'Scabby Horns'. These are all personal names. Half the time 'horn' is clearly 'antler', but this is a standard pattern in Omaha-Ponca where he' means 'horn, antler', though Dorsey always translates it 'horn'. In he'=z^aN[']kka=ttaN'ga, I assume from the location of accent in ttaN'ga that z^aNkka is accented z^aN'kka. In that case, then, and in he'=ga'zaza=xti we have two successive accented syllables, and probably the first accent is spurious. Dorsey does also list he'=bac^[c^?]age 'Blunt Horns' and he'=waNz^i'dha 'One Horn'. I think the latter is an adaptation of Dakota (he)waNz^i'la 'one (horn)'. WaNz^i'dha is certainly unprecedented in Omaha-Ponca, as far as I know. I don't know how that compound would be stressed in Dakota. The implication of the OP form is he'=waz^i'dha, even though the first element isn't actually written with accent. One possible implication of this accentual pattern in compounds with he' 'horn' is that he' 'horn' is short, at least in compounds, e.g., he=ga'zaza as opposed to *hee'=gaza'za, though, of course, my usual assumption has been that accent falls on the first element in a compound, even if that element happens to be monosyllabic. The he' 'horn' examples above would be largely problematic for me under that assumption. I don't have any compounds with he' 'louse/lice' from Dorsey. Swetland's UmoNhoN-iye of Elizabeth Stabler does list he'=saN 'gnits, gnats', i.e., nits, the young or eggs of lice, suggesting maybe hee'=saN. It would be nice to have some further examples transcribed by a consistant, modern source. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From arem8 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 16 13:58:20 2003 From: arem8 at hotmail.com (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:58:20 -0400 Subject: Possible Siouan origin? Message-ID: Listeros, In the Illinois-French dictionary there is a curious entry: , which is glossed "serpent". This term's appearance in this dictionary seems to be the only time it is attested in Miami-Illinois and there appear to be no cognates in other Algonquian languages that mean "snake". Now, there is Proto-Algonquian */sa:kima:wa/ 'chief' (Aubin #1936; also in Hewson #2914), and that term, according to what Dave Costa told me this week, does have reflexes in Eastern Algonquian and perhaps in old Fox. Although Illinois and PA */sa:kima:wa/ are on the surface quite similar, the discrepancy in their glosses is troubling. One might be led to believe that there was an old Jesuit in the Illinois Country who simply made a mistake when he recorded the Illinois term. However, there are two additional terms related to the entry that show that this was not a error: 1) glossed "medecine (sic) c[on]tre les morsures" (medicine for bites), with diaresis over the <-i->; 2) glossed "qui pense (sic) les mordus". The latter term is a participle, and the French translation is "(he/she) who bandages the bites ("pense" for "panse," meaning "bandages"). I was wondering if, despite the apparent relationship between and PA */sa:kima:wa/, there was a chance the Illinois term was a borrowing from Siouan. Is there anything like in Siouan meaning "snake"? wiipaci, Michael McCafferty _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From rankin at ku.edu Sat Aug 16 14:22:20 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:22:20 -0500 Subject: Possible Siouan origin? Message-ID: Nothing similar in Siouan that I can think of, although the term in Siouan apparently undergoes taboo replacement fairly easily (Dhegiha, Chiwere/Winnebago, Ohio Valley Siouan at least). In Dhegiha it's *wes?a (perhaps related to 'drip', perhaps just opaque); in Chiwere it's *wakhaN, the 'sacred' word, and in OVS it's *moNkhaN 'medicine' and roughly the nasalized equivalent of wakhaN. I wrote a bit about these in the paper I did for the Siebert Festschrift. So no joy apparently. . . . Bob >In the Illinois-French dictionary there is a curious entry: , which is glossed "serpent". This term's appearance in this dictionary seems to be the only time it is attested in Miami-Illinois and there appear to be no cognates in other Algonquian languages that mean "snake". Now, there is Proto-Algonquian */sa:kima:wa/ 'chief' (Aubin #1936; also in Hewson #2914), and that term, according to what Dave Costa told me this week, does have reflexes in Eastern Algonquian and perhaps in old Fox. Although Illinois and PA */sa:kima:wa/ are on the surface quite similar, the discrepancy in their glosses is troubling. One might be led to believe that there was an old Jesuit in the Illinois Country who simply made a mistake when he recorded the Illinois term. However, there are two additional terms related to the entry that show that this was not a error: 1) glossed "medecine (sic) c[on]tre les morsures" (medicine for bites), with diaresis over the <-i->; 2) glossed "qui pense (sic) les mordus". The latter term is a participle, and the French translation is "(he/she) who bandages the bites ("pense" for "panse," meaning "bandages"). I was wondering if, despite the apparent relationship between and PA */sa:kima:wa/, there was a chance the Illinois term was a borrowing from Siouan. Is there anything like in Siouan meaning "snake"? wiipaci, Michael McCafferty _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 17 20:55:04 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 14:55:04 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: <78.45438e77.2c68fdae@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 BARudes at aol.com wrote: > MI wiikwee- > > PSI *-truN (one might have plumped for *-kwuN, too) > PreDa *ikwuN (i.e., m = w/__VN) > Te igmu' > Sa inmu' > PreIO *wiitwaN ??? > IO udwaN' (+ yiNGe 'little') (u- ???) > Wi wiic^aN'wa(siNiNc^serec^) 'cougar' (long-tailed cat) > PreWi *wii'twaN > PreDh *i(N)kruN-ka (*-ka is a noun former) > OP iNgdhaN'(ga) > Ks iluN (l < *kr) > Os iluN'ka (l < *kr) > Bi *tmoc^-ka (tmo suggests *twuN) > Tu *talus-ka yiNki (attested form regularized as "taluskik") > > Yuchi atyuNne 'wildcat' > Mohawk atiiru > > A. I assume you are suggesting that the Miami form is a loan from the > PreDakotan reconstruction, since it is the only form in your set that > bears any resemblance to the Miami form. However, as you point out, > the Miami and the PreDakotan forms share only the consonant cluster. No, from a subsequent Siouan form something like the Dakotan igmuN (*ikwuN) or PreWiCh *wiitwaN, which could as well have been *(w)itwuN and *wiikwaN, given the difficulties the cluster presents, and given the not fully understood tendencies of Siouan languages to add reflexes of *wa- or *wV- to various forms. I don't insist that the source be one of the attested Siouan languages. There is some reason to believe that the linguistic situation of the historical period is not fully representative of the situation before contact. If a set shows the kind of variability across languages that this one shows, we may or may not want to consider that additional variation within the attested range might have occurred in the past. Even without allowing for additional linguistic forms, we have to consider that we have a situation in which we do not know at what point PreDa *itwuN became *ikwun, or, alternatively, PreWiCh *wiikwaN became *wiitwaN. > B. You are proposing to explain the initial w- in the Miami form from > a PreDakotan initial *w- from one or another of several sources, but > the *w- is not even reconstructable for the PreDakotan form. As far as initial w, we don't know whether PreWiCh added *w(V)- (and why), or wether the other dialects lost it. Actually, given Rankins evidence for *wi- as a prefix on animal names, we might suspect the latter. As far as whether the medial cluster exhibits m or w, the question is essentially moot in a Siouan context, as there is often no contrast, though the details vary with the language. Dakotan does do a better job of contrasting w and m than most Siouan languages. Though there is not much variability in recording pral or nasal variants of the resonants in Mississippi Valley languages, there has been in the past with Crow and Hidatsa, and plainly something like this in the past in Dakotan explains why the Santee, Yankton-Yanktonais, and Teton dalects have b and d or l where the Assiniboine and Stoney dialects have m and n. These are the "oral context" pronunciations. All of the dialects mentioned have m and n in nasal contexts. Of course, Santee was recorded in the 1800s with md where I gather more recently speakers have bd. In short, I'm prepared to believe that however it is written now, a labial resonant in gm might be heard as w or perceived as equivalent to that by a bilingual speaker. The cluster in the Siouan forms remains a very interesting question. Santee inmuN actually suggests tw, if we recognize that nm is analogous to mn, where mn is the well-attested nasal equivalent of oral md ~ bd (to use the Santee forms), also very well attested. This is because nm looks like it might be the nasal form of *dw, though I don't know of any examples of *dw. Siouanists take it as an article of faith that stop + resonant clusters do not begin with dentals, though 'cat' and 'squash' put the cluster *tw on the table for embarassed consideration. For that matter, clusters ending in labial resonants are unusual, though they do occur in Dakotan and in Winnebago and Iowau-Otoe. They do not occur in Dheigha. Dhegiha's *kr in 'cat' is most likely an attempt to convert something awkward like *tr or *tw or *kw into something manageable like *kr. The reverse possiblity, that Dakotan and Winnebago-Chiwere have elected independently to change *kr into vanishingly rare *kw and *tw respectively seems unlikely. Whether Santee nasalized *dw argues for *t in Proto-Dakotan is unclear. It happens that *t and *k are interchangeable in the reflexes of the *tp and *kp clusters. Teton has kp for both, while Santee has tp for both. So *kp remains kp in Teton, but becomes tp in Santee, cf. Te kpaza, Santee tpaza 'dark', OP ppaze 'evening', Wi (ho)kawas 'be dark, darkness'. On the other hand *tp becomes kp in Teton, but remains tp in Santee, cf. Te nakpa', Santee natpa', OP nitta' (Ks naNtta'), Wi naNaNc^'awa '(external) ear'. Given this situation PreDa *dw and *gw (*tw and *kw) might well also have neutralized, if there are/were enough examples to speak in these terms! The remaining issue here is the comparison of uN or aN with ee. As I think I asked, isn't there something funny about the distribution of *ee in Algonquian - like first syllables only? If ee is unusual in this context, that is in itself an interesting matter. However, it would be more useful if there were an example agreed to be a loan that showed what happened to aN or uN. I don't actually have one in mind. We don't know much about loans into or out of SIouan. The best parallel I can think of is the Siouan 'bow' term, where forms like OP maN'de and Wi maNaNc^gu' are considered to derive from an Algonquian form like *me?tekw-. > C. You are proposing that Proto-Siouan *-truN ' panther, mountain > lion' is cognate with or in some other way related to Proto-Iroquoian > *ti:l-i/oN 'skunk' (see cognates in previous email), despite the > difference in meanings and the problem of where the vowel separating > the consonants came from in Iroquoian or went to in Siouan. I've discussed the way in which terms for 'cat' (and this is more like the 'bobcat' term than the 'mountain lion' term, without modification) get used more widely than with strict reference to the Linnaean concept of the Felidae. Obviously this would not be a recent loan, and there is room for various specializations to have occurred at either end. Whether the vowel of the first syllable comes in Iroquoian or goes in Siouan I couldn't say. I was struck by the resemblance, but I'm not prepared to argue any specific scenario. > D. You are proposing that Proto-Siouan *-truN 'panther, mountain lion' > is cognate with a purposed Yuchi form atyuNne 'wildcat'. No such form > exists! ... Bill Ballard's English-Yuchi lexicon shows that the Yuchi > word for 'wildcat' is $athy at N ($ = s hachek, @N = nasal open o). He > also cites a form from Gunther Wagner, cat' an' e ($at?ane) which is > not the same word. $athy at N also means 'raccoon'. You're right. I mistranscribed what looks to me in the Comparative Siouan Archive file (seen as extended-ASCII, since it's very difficult for me to display the alternative DOS screen font we used anymore) like atyvne 'wildcat'. I'm not even marginally familiar with Yuchi. ====== For the rest, I don't mind speculation on this list, though I hope to try to distinguish speculation from more rigorous analysis more explcitly. This is not a refereed journal. JEK From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Mon Aug 18 17:01:04 2003 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:01:04 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: Hey, all -- I'm finally back home in Nebraska from the Michigan meeting (just in time to catch the tail end of the Omaha tribal powwow in Macy, on a scorching hot day) and before I get sidetracked by too many other things I want to check in with everybody about next year's conference. (1) The conference will be in Wayne, Nebraska, hosted by Wayne State College. I talked to my dean and he is enthusiastic about supporting/hosting us, so it's definitely a go. (2) DATE -- Let's aim for early summer -- June or possibly even late May. Say, the weekend of May 29, June 5, 12, 19, 26, or July 3?? Does anyone know of conflicts or have preferences among these dates? I know it's way early, but summer has a tendency to get filled up, so I'd like to set a date soon ... (3) Just to get it in writing... the 2005 meeting is tentatively set for Oklahoma, with Bob &/or Kathy hosting, no? Catherine From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon Aug 18 17:06:01 2003 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:06:01 -0600 Subject: Siouan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Catherine, Thanks for getting on top of this so quickly. May I suggest that you avoid both Memorial Day weekend (traffic) and Father's Day (family stuff)? Otherwise I have no preference. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > > Hey, all -- I'm finally back home in Nebraska from the Michigan meeting > (just in time to catch the tail end of the Omaha tribal powwow in Macy, on > a scorching hot day) and before I get sidetracked by too many other things > I want to check in with everybody about next year's conference. > > (1) The conference will be in Wayne, Nebraska, hosted by Wayne State > College. I talked to my dean and he is enthusiastic about > supporting/hosting us, so it's definitely a go. > > (2) DATE -- Let's aim for early summer -- June or possibly even late May. > Say, the weekend of May 29, June 5, 12, 19, 26, or July 3?? Does anyone > know of conflicts or have preferences among these dates? I know it's way > early, but summer has a tendency to get filled up, so I'd like to set a > date soon ... > > (3) Just to get it in writing... the 2005 meeting is tentatively set for > Oklahoma, with Bob &/or Kathy hosting, no? > > Catherine > > From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Mon Aug 18 17:09:39 2003 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:09:39 -0500 Subject: Cleft/Focus Example Message-ID: This IS a great example! Sure looks like a cleft to me. And it's especially nice to have a sentence with the cleft/focus -e after a noun -- I think the ones in your paper were just about all on demonstratives or verbs/clauses. I wonder what the syntax of this looks like... can -e attach to any type of constituent? Does it make an adjoined phrase of some kind? Catherine Koontz John E o.edu> cc: Sent by: Subject: Cleft/Focus Example owner-siouan at lists.c olorado.edu 08/16/03 12:33 AM Please respond to siouan I noticed this great example of an "e-cleft" in Omaha-Ponca this evening. It's one I missed in preparing my paper for the Siouan and Caddoan Conference because this one doesn't show the "e" as enclitic to the noun as recorded in the texts. I include the context, because it's needed to show the focus. The over all context involves a story in which the hero, guesting with four Thunder-beings, is successively offered various inedible things to eat, each of which the Thunder-beings call by various innocent names. --- Dorsey 1890:181.11-12 "WattaN'ze=skidhe bdhaNze=xc^i u'wagihaN=i=ga!" a=bi=ama. corn sweet very small-(grained?) cook for them he1 said He' (=?)e wak[h?]e akh=ama. lice that he1 was meaning GaN, "E'gaN aNwaNdhatha=b=az^i," a=bi=ama And so like that we do not eat it he2 said --- I think that "Lice were what he meant." is a very suitable translation for the second sentence in this context, and that a focussing cleft is what adding the e here produces. (Oo, a cleft of my own!) The subject here is implicit in the verb (but governs the imperfect auxiliary akha), and this is an object cleft. The sentence certainly doesn't mean "He meant those (particular, previously mentioned) lice." In fact, the lice haven't been mentioned previously, though one might argue that they could perhaps be assumed by the hearers on the strength of corpses of men previously mentioned. I recall an article on Eskimo antipassives in which it was pointed out that rocks were always definite, even if not previously mentioned, because if there was one thing you could assume in an arctic landscape, it was rocks. Similarly, humans may imply lice, but I don't think this is what is going on here! It's also useful to note the verb u'wagihaN=i=ga 'cook it for them!' in the first sentence. The underlying verb is uhaN' 'to cook'. The dative is ugi'haN. Because the object is plural the u- prefix is accented, i.e., derived from *wo < wa-o'-, where historical wa- is the actual plural object prefix. But, various u-verbs with animate objects (dative object in this case) add wa- 'them' anyway, pleonastically, as it were. With the a- and i- locatives wa- is regularly added before the locative (producing wa'- and we'-), but with this locative it follows. JEK From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Mon Aug 18 17:15:34 2003 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:15:34 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: Ah! I knew someone would have a better handle on the calendar than me. Memorial Day eliminates May 29, and Father's day knocks out what? June 12? or 19? Catherine, Thanks for getting on top of this so quickly. May I suggest that you avoid both Memorial Day weekend (traffic) and Father's Day (family stuff)? Otherwise I have no preference. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > > Hey, all -- I'm finally back home in Nebraska from the Michigan meeting > (just in time to catch the tail end of the Omaha tribal powwow in Macy, on > a scorching hot day) and before I get sidetracked by too many other things > I want to check in with everybody about next year's conference. > > (1) The conference will be in Wayne, Nebraska, hosted by Wayne State > College. I talked to my dean and he is enthusiastic about > supporting/hosting us, so it's definitely a go. > > (2) DATE -- Let's aim for early summer -- June or possibly even late May. > Say, the weekend of May 29, June 5, 12, 19, 26, or July 3?? Does anyone > know of conflicts or have preferences among these dates? I know it's way > early, but summer has a tendency to get filled up, so I'd like to set a > date soon ... > > (3) Just to get it in writing... the 2005 meeting is tentatively set for > Oklahoma, with Bob &/or Kathy hosting, no? > > Catherine > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 18 17:52:32 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:52:32 -0600 Subject: Siouan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > Ah! I knew someone would have a better handle on the calendar than me. > Memorial Day eliminates May 29, and Father's day knocks out what? June 12? > or 19? Apparently, the third Sunday in June, or June 20th. And, for those who want to know, Mother's Day, the second Sunday in May, or May 9th. JEK From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon Aug 18 17:53:17 2003 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:53:17 -0600 Subject: Siouan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I would guess the 19th, but I don't have a 2004 calendar with that kind of info here in the office. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > > Ah! I knew someone would have a better handle on the calendar than me. > Memorial Day eliminates May 29, and Father's day knocks out what? June 12? > or 19? > > > > Catherine, > Thanks for getting on top of this so quickly. May I suggest > that > you avoid both Memorial Day weekend (traffic) and Father's Day (family > stuff)? Otherwise I have no preference. > David > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > > > > > Hey, all -- I'm finally back home in Nebraska from the Michigan meeting > > (just in time to catch the tail end of the Omaha tribal powwow in Macy, > on > > a scorching hot day) and before I get sidetracked by too many other > things > > I want to check in with everybody about next year's conference. > > > > (1) The conference will be in Wayne, Nebraska, hosted by Wayne State > > College. I talked to my dean and he is enthusiastic about > > supporting/hosting us, so it's definitely a go. > > > > (2) DATE -- Let's aim for early summer -- June or possibly even late > May. > > Say, the weekend of May 29, June 5, 12, 19, 26, or July 3?? Does anyone > > know of conflicts or have preferences among these dates? I know it's > way > > early, but summer has a tendency to get filled up, so I'd like to set a > > date soon ... > > > > (3) Just to get it in writing... the 2005 meeting is tentatively set for > > Oklahoma, with Bob &/or Kathy hosting, no? > > > > Catherine > > > > > > > > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 18 18:10:39 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:10:39 -0600 Subject: Cleft/Focus Example In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > This IS a great example! Sure looks like a cleft to me. And it's > especially nice to have a sentence with the cleft/focus -e after a noun -- > I think the ones in your paper were just about all on demonstratives or > verbs/clauses. Yes, though that may have been an artifact of looking for e(')-e ... I was looking particularly at the postverbal examples in an attempt to determine the relationship of =e to the proximate/obviative system. I will have to cast my net wider, given the clefting analysis. It's a learning process. > I wonder what the syntax of this looks like... can -e attach to any > type of constituent? Well, so far, lots of demonstratives, a certain number of verbs, and one noun. Also, commonly to personal pronouns, as in wi=e'=bdhiN 'it is I'. And, perhaps relevant, there are a few postverbal particles, essentially modal, e.g., (e=)iN=the 'perhaps', (e=)t[]e'must', and and so on, that seem to have two versions - one which attaches to the verb, one with attached to e= following the verb. I've never been able to decide why that happened. In the cast of 'must' (or maybe it's 'ought'?) the problem is partly determining whether it is =tte or =the. > Does it make an adjoined phrase of some kind? Yes, as far as I can tell. I believe that's the essence of a cleft, and I am arguing that this is a cleft and not just an "in-place" mark of focus. Of course, if you're dealing with an SOV language and most clauses are SV or OV, it's hard to move the extracted and adjoined phrase far. However, sometimes in the examples I gave at the meeting the extraction is postposed, and I think the adverbial examples involved fronting, too, though over the years - ignoring syntactic processes like focus - I've gotten into the comfortable rut of assuming that adverbs can pretty much occur where they like without it needing any particular comment on my part. About the only thing in this line - odd placement of adverbs - that I've noticed previously is that some adverbs seem to insert themselves between the verb and the plural/proximate marking. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 18 18:12:50 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:12:50 -0600 Subject: Siouan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Koontz John E wrote: > Apparently, [Father's Day is] the third Sunday in June, or June 20th. > And, for those who want to know, Mother's Day, the second Sunday in > May, or May 9th. Let me clarify that this is from the rules, not from a calendar. So, it wouldn't hurt to check a calendar. JEK From vstabler at esu1.org Mon Aug 18 20:37:37 2003 From: vstabler at esu1.org (Vida Stabler) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:37:37 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: Hi Catherine, now you have my interest. I always wanted to find an opportunity where the Siouan group could meet our team here at the UmoNhoN Language Center. We'd love to be involved with the planning. Maybe we could share some of the work we do. Many of you know our team at the School has been working with Ardis Eschenberg for over 3 years now. For those of you who don't know, the Elders (6), Ardis and I are part of a revitilization effort here on the Omaha reservation. We have made great gains over the last 3 years and I will never again 'bad talk' Linguists (aye!). The Siouan group can really do a lot to help Native people with revitilization efforts. We've been at it over 5 years and could present what we have learned, especially what the Elders have taught us. What do you think? Vida Stabler, UmoNhoN Language Center Director Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > Hey, all -- I'm finally back home in Nebraska from the Michigan meeting > (just in time to catch the tail end of the Omaha tribal powwow in Macy, on > a scorching hot day) and before I get sidetracked by too many other things > I want to check in with everybody about next year's conference. > > (1) The conference will be in Wayne, Nebraska, hosted by Wayne State > College. I talked to my dean and he is enthusiastic about > supporting/hosting us, so it's definitely a go. > > (2) DATE -- Let's aim for early summer -- June or possibly even late May. > Say, the weekend of May 29, June 5, 12, 19, 26, or July 3?? Does anyone > know of conflicts or have preferences among these dates? I know it's way > early, but summer has a tendency to get filled up, so I'd like to set a > date soon ... > > (3) Just to get it in writing... the 2005 meeting is tentatively set for > Oklahoma, with Bob &/or Kathy hosting, no? > > Catherine From mary.marino at usask.ca Mon Aug 18 21:10:29 2003 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Mary Marino) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:10:29 -0600 Subject: Siouan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Any of these dates is fine with me. Father's Day is the 20th of June, if that is a concern. I think I would prefer the date to be earlier rather than later (I might get out of attending our Convocation Banquet!). Mary Marino At 12:01 PM 8/18/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Hey, all -- I'm finally back home in Nebraska from the Michigan meeting >(just in time to catch the tail end of the Omaha tribal powwow in Macy, on >a scorching hot day) and before I get sidetracked by too many other things >I want to check in with everybody about next year's conference. > >(1) The conference will be in Wayne, Nebraska, hosted by Wayne State >College. I talked to my dean and he is enthusiastic about >supporting/hosting us, so it's definitely a go. > >(2) DATE -- Let's aim for early summer -- June or possibly even late May. >Say, the weekend of May 29, June 5, 12, 19, 26, or July 3?? Does anyone >know of conflicts or have preferences among these dates? I know it's way >early, but summer has a tendency to get filled up, so I'd like to set a >date soon ... > >(3) Just to get it in writing... the 2005 meeting is tentatively set for >Oklahoma, with Bob &/or Kathy hosting, no? > >Catherine From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 18 21:17:08 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:17:08 -0600 Subject: Siouan Conference In-Reply-To: <3F413910.AA412819@esu1.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Vida Stabler wrote: > Hi Catherine, now you have my interest. I always wanted to find an > opportunity where the Siouan group could meet our team here at the > UmoNhoN Language Center. We'd love to be involved with the planning. > Maybe we could share some of the work we do. I can't speak for Catherine or Wayne, but I can say on my own behalf, as someone who intends to attend next year, that it would be great to hear what the UmoNhoN Language Center is up to, and, for that matter, it would be nice to hear from any of the Siouan language programs in Nebraska, though I'm not really very up to date on Winnebago/Hochank or, especially, Santee or Ponca activities. John From goodtracks at GBRonline.com Mon Aug 18 17:56:17 2003 From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:56:17 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: I would vote for the last weekend of May,04. It seems like it will be a 3 day week end. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC" To: Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 12:01 PM Subject: Siouan Conference > > Hey, all -- I'm finally back home in Nebraska from the Michigan meeting > (just in time to catch the tail end of the Omaha tribal powwow in Macy, on > a scorching hot day) and before I get sidetracked by too many other things > I want to check in with everybody about next year's conference. > > (1) The conference will be in Wayne, Nebraska, hosted by Wayne State > College. I talked to my dean and he is enthusiastic about > supporting/hosting us, so it's definitely a go. > > (2) DATE -- Let's aim for early summer -- June or possibly even late May. > Say, the weekend of May 29, June 5, 12, 19, 26, or July 3?? Does anyone > know of conflicts or have preferences among these dates? I know it's way > early, but summer has a tendency to get filled up, so I'd like to set a > date soon ... > > (3) Just to get it in writing... the 2005 meeting is tentatively set for > Oklahoma, with Bob &/or Kathy hosting, no? > > Catherine > > > > From rankin at ku.edu Tue Aug 19 01:58:56 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:58:56 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: Sounds like a winner to me. Maybe one of the sessions could be held at Macy?? Bob > Hi Catherine, now you have my interest. I always wanted to find an opportunity where the Siouan group could meet our team here at the UmoNhoN Language Center. We'd love to be involved with the planning. Maybe we could share some of the work we do. From voorhis at westman.wave.ca Tue Aug 19 04:15:20 2003 From: voorhis at westman.wave.ca (voorhis at westman.wave.ca) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:15:20 -0500 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > The remaining issue here is the comparison of uN or aN with ee. As I > think I asked, isn't there something funny about the distribution of *ee > in Algonquian - like first syllables only? I'll comment on this since the "lurking Algonquianists" don't seem to be reacting. Proto-Algonquian short *i and *e apparently didn't contrast in first syllables; *e is generally reconstructed. Proto-Algonquian long *ii seems not to occur in initial position, though after cononants both *ii and *ee are found in first syllables. Elsewhere *ee and *aa are occasionally in alternation conditioned by following pronominal suffixes. Paul From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Tue Aug 19 14:27:59 2003 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:27:59 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: Hi, Vida! Glad you are in on the conversation. I'd love to have the UmoNhoN Language Center's input in planning the conference. A presentation on the work you and the elders have been doing in Macy would be great -- I was hoping for something like that anyway, so I'm glad you volunteered it. Maybe we can arrange a visit to the Center, or maybe you have other ideas. I'll call you to talk about it. Thanks for your invitation -- it's way too long since I've made it over to the school. I'll try to come see you guys before the semester gets too messy. Probably on a Tuesday or Thursday afternoon. But I'll call first. Talk to you soon. Give my regards to everyone at the Center! Catherine Vida Stabler To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent by: cc: owner-siouan at lists.c Subject: Re: Siouan Conference olorado.edu 08/18/03 03:37 PM Please respond to siouan Hi Catherine, now you have my interest. I always wanted to find an opportunity where the Siouan group could meet our team here at the UmoNhoN Language Center. We'd love to be involved with the planning. Maybe we could share some of the work we do. Many of you know our team at the School has been working with Ardis Eschenberg for over 3 years now. For those of you who don't know, the Elders (6), Ardis and I are part of a revitilization effort here on the Omaha reservation. We have made great gains over the last 3 years and I will never again 'bad talk' Linguists (aye!). The Siouan group can really do a lot to help Native people with revitilization efforts. We've been at it over 5 years and could present what we have learned, especially what the Elders have taught us. What do you think? Vida Stabler, UmoNhoN Language Center Director Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > Hey, all -- I'm finally back home in Nebraska from the Michigan meeting > (just in time to catch the tail end of the Omaha tribal powwow in Macy, on > a scorching hot day) and before I get sidetracked by too many other things > I want to check in with everybody about next year's conference. > > (1) The conference will be in Wayne, Nebraska, hosted by Wayne State > College. I talked to my dean and he is enthusiastic about > supporting/hosting us, so it's definitely a go. > > (2) DATE -- Let's aim for early summer -- June or possibly even late May. > Say, the weekend of May 29, June 5, 12, 19, 26, or July 3?? Does anyone > know of conflicts or have preferences among these dates? I know it's way > early, but summer has a tendency to get filled up, so I'd like to set a > date soon ... > > (3) Just to get it in writing... the 2005 meeting is tentatively set for > Oklahoma, with Bob &/or Kathy hosting, no? > > Catherine From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Tue Aug 19 14:41:43 2003 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:41:43 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: >I can't speak for Catherine or Wayne, but I can say on my own behalf, as >someone who intends to attend next year, that it would be great to hear >what the UmoNhoN Language Center is up to, and, for that matter, it would >be nice to hear from any of the Siouan language programs in Nebraska, >though I'm not really very up to date on Winnebago/Hochank or, especially, >Santee or Ponca activities. Absolutely! I (and I'm sure the whole group) would welcome presentations from any of the nearby language programs (or even not-so-nearby ones). If anyone out there reading this is involved with a Siouan language program, please consider yourself invited! Catherine you can contact me at 402-375-4316 or 402-375-7026 or mail carudin1 at wsc.edu From jmcbride at kayserv.net Tue Aug 19 15:35:05 2003 From: jmcbride at kayserv.net (Justin McBride) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:35:05 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: > Absolutely! I (and I'm sure the whole group) would welcome presentations > from any of the nearby language programs (or even not-so-nearby ones). If > anyone out there reading this is involved with a Siouan language program, > please consider yourself invited! Perhaps this time we here at the Kanza Language Project will be able to make it. In the meantime, we're very much looking forward to the possibility of a 2005 conference in Oklahoma. There are definitely a bunch of Siouan folks down here, including Kaws, Osages, Poncas, Quapaws, Ioways, Otoe-Missourias... am I leaving anyone out? Any one of these tribes would probably be glad to donate an auditorium to the cause for a week. -jm From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Aug 19 16:13:45 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:13:45 -0600 Subject: Siouan Conference In-Reply-To: <003401c36667$86b09550$3702a8c0@Language> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Aug 2003, Justin McBride wrote: > Perhaps this time we here at the Kanza Language Project will be able > to make it. In the meantime, we're very much looking forward to the > possibility of a 2005 conference in Oklahoma. There are definitely a > bunch of Siouan folks down here, including Kaws, Osages, Poncas, > Quapaws, Ioways, Otoe-Missourias... am I leaving anyone out? Any one > of these tribes would probably be glad to donate an auditorium to the > cause for a week. I guess we're all leaving out the Caddoan languages, ever since I thoughtlessly called this the Siouan list instead of the Siouan and Caddoan list. Anyway, there are a few Caddoan groups there in OK, too, though it's hard to find enough Caddoanists to rub together to make a fire, particularly at conferences. I'm looking forward to Oklahoma, too. From arem8 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 14:27:47 2003 From: arem8 at hotmail.com (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 10:27:47 -0400 Subject: ASB puza Message-ID: >From: voorhis at westman.wave.ca >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: ASB puza >Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:15:20 -0500 > >Koontz John E wrote: > > The remaining issue here is the comparison of uN or aN with ee. As I > > think I asked, isn't there something funny about the distribution of *ee > > in Algonquian - like first syllables only? > >I'll comment on this since the "lurking Algonquianists" don't seem to be >reacting. Proto-Algonquian short *i and *e apparently didn't contrast >in first syllables; *e is generally reconstructed. Proto-Algonquian >long *ii seems not to occur in initial position, though after cononants >both *ii and *ee are found in first syllables. Elsewhere *ee and *aa >are occasionally in alternation conditioned by following pronominal >suffixes. I "lurk" or rather "stalk" the Siouan discussion site for things that Siouanists have to say that might be relevant to Algonquian, as I'm especially interested in the former Siouan presence in the Ohio valley-- the Miami-Illinois name for the Ohio River does in fact translate to "Kaw River". Also, I stalk this listserv because John Koontz and Bob Rankin have been so kind over the years in answering my questions-- and with really interesting answers-- that I've always wanted to see what more they and their colleagues have to say about things. But, in this case, John's query seems to have bypassed my lurking eyes. I guess all I can add to Paul's posting is that Proto-Algonquian long */ee/ occurs, as far as I know, in all manner of syllables, but not in word-final position (although PA penultimate-syllable */ee/ does give word-final long /ee/ in Ojibwe). PA */ee/ is especially common in the penultimate syllable, e.g., */wecye:wa/ 'fly' (n.) and */melwowe:wa/ 'he/she speaks well'. Initial-syllable */ee/ is not extremely common, actually, but occurs in, for example, */e:likwa/ 'ant' and */e:hsepana/ 'raccoon'. Michael McCafferty > >Paul _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From john.koontz at colorado.edu Wed Aug 20 10:45:07 2003 From: john.koontz at colorado.edu (john.koontz at colorado.edu) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 10:45:07 --0500 Subject: Your details Message-ID: See the attached file for details -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: details.pif Type: application/octet-stream Size: 74110 bytes Desc: not available URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Aug 20 16:23:26 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 10:23:26 -0600 Subject: In Regard to Thanka ec^ha Message-ID: Be careful. At least one list subscriber got what looks like a letter returned to him from the list, indicating in proper form that he is not a subscriber - he is - but containing a payload for the latest email virus. It is possible to get subscriber names for non-silent participants from the list archives, so somebody could put something like this together as a way of persuading you or your system to open the attachment, or in an attempt to get you to send the attachment to the list in your own name. I haven't figured this one out. It might have been specifically hand targetted at the person in question or it may be that it was generated as a side effect of one of the now standard schemes for making nastygrams look like they are just something coming back to you or, alternatively, for making mail appear to be coming from an address that is actually non-existant or irrelevant, but do please be careful about opening at least bounced back mail from the list, and do make sure that your virus protection software is up to date. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Aug 20 16:25:18 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 10:25:18 -0600 Subject: ASB puza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Aug 2003, Michael McCafferty wrote: > I "lurk" or rather "stalk" the Siouan discussion site for things that > Siouanists have to say that might be relevant to Algonquian, as I'm > especially interested in the former Siouan presence in the Ohio valley-- the > Miami-Illinois name for the Ohio River does in fact translate to "Kaw > River". Also, I stalk this listserv because John Koontz and Bob Rankin have > been so kind over the years in answering my questions-- and with really > interesting answers-- that I've always wanted to see what more they and > their colleagues have to say about things. But, in this case, John's query > seems to have bypassed my lurking eyes. > > I guess all I can add to Paul's posting is that Proto-Algonquian long */ee/ > occurs, as far as I know, in all manner of syllables, ... Yes, I seem to have remembered this distribution restriction in an inverted form! From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Aug 20 16:42:49 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 10:42:49 -0600 Subject: In Regard to Thanka ec^ha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Aug 2003, Koontz John E wrote: > Be careful. ... My conclusion, after thinking about this further, and without going into details, is that somebody on the list who communicates with the person in question off list has a virus infected system, and that the virus constructed a message to the list that appeared to come from the person in question. However, the address used for the supposed sender wasn't quite right for his list subscription, and so the letter was bounced back to the supposed sender by the list. However, what this tells me is that a virus mailing (or even a spam mailing) targetting this list that does appear to come from an actual subscriber to this list might get through. It depends on how successful the camouflaging of the actual sender is. In the case of a virus, the actual sender might well be an asctual subscriber, of course, and no camouflaging would be needed. Fortunately most current viruses cleverly avoid sending mail in the actual name of the infected user/system. In any event, please be careful with list mailings that fit virus or spam patterns. If anything does get through, I'll reset the list so that I approve all postings, but that's sort of like shutting the door to the henhouse with the fox inside. From mary.marino at usask.ca Wed Aug 20 17:11:33 2003 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Mary Marino) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 11:11:33 -0600 Subject: In Regard to Thanka ec^ha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John - I just received an email from you that was blocked by the U of Saskatchewan system with a virus warning. Maybe this has something to do with this incident you described below. Mary At 10:23 AM 8/20/2003 -0600, you wrote: >Be careful. At least one list subscriber got what looks like a letter >returned to him from the list, indicating in proper form that he is not a >subscriber - he is - but containing a payload for the latest email virus. >It is possible to get subscriber names for non-silent participants from >the list archives, so somebody could put something like this together as a >way of persuading you or your system to open the attachment, or in an >attempt to get you to send the attachment to the list in your own name. > >I haven't figured this one out. It might have been specifically hand >targetted at the person in question or it may be that it was generated as >a side effect of one of the now standard schemes for making nastygrams >look like they are just something coming back to you or, alternatively, >for making mail appear to be coming from an address that is actually >non-existant or irrelevant, but do please be careful about opening at >least bounced back mail from the list, and do make sure that your virus >protection software is up to date. > >John E. Koontz >http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Aug 20 20:06:09 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:06:09 -0600 Subject: Additional Warning In-Reply-To: <00e401c36753$18af6440$dbab8351@a5h1k3> Message-ID: A lot of people are getting letters purportedly from me (off the list) containing virus attachments. This is further virus traffic. Typical examples say "Your details" and refer to an attachment, but this virus (sobig) has a lot of variant messages, mostly pretty plausible sounding. I assume that myy address was harvested from the same infected system that harvested the list address and the addresses of the individuals who are receiving mail from me or other list members with the virus attachment. Delete the letter, and delete the attachment file, if you mailer keeps them separately. Make sure your virus protection software is up to date. There is a description of sobig and a pointer to a fix at the Symantec Norton Anti-Virus site: http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.sobig.f at mm.html Note that you should always check links in letter like this to make sure that they are pointing to the site they appear to be pointing at. And that that site is the correctly spelled name of a site that you might want to go to. Note that one of the more popular forms of SPAM these days is offers to sell NAV cheaply (not coming from Symantec), and that one of the variants of sobig claims to be a messa from NAV reporting that you sent a virus-infected letter (details in attachment), which has been rejected. Never open the attachments on these things ... From rankin at ku.edu Wed Aug 20 20:27:24 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:27:24 -0500 Subject: Additional Warning Message-ID: Just today I have received a string of "undeliverable" notices from email addresses I never sent any mail to. I forward mine to the "abuse" address at the KU comp center. I think it is possible that someone got hold of the Siouan list directory. If others of you get this sort of mail, check with your local university ISP or comp center web site: they probably have something like an abuse address you can forward your viruses and spam to for action. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Koontz John E [mailto:John.Koontz at colorado.edu] Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 3:06 PM To: Siouan List Subject: Additional Warning A lot of people are getting letters purportedly from me (off the list) containing virus attachments. This is further virus traffic. Typical examples say "Your details" and refer to an attachment, but this virus (sobig) has a lot of variant messages, mostly pretty plausible sounding. I assume that myy address was harvested from the same infected system that harvested the list address and the addresses of the individuals who are receiving mail from me or other list members with the virus attachment. Delete the letter, and delete the attachment file, if you mailer keeps them separately. Make sure your virus protection software is up to date. There is a description of sobig and a pointer to a fix at the Symantec Norton Anti-Virus site: http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.sobig.f at mm.html Note that you should always check links in letter like this to make sure that they are pointing to the site they appear to be pointing at. And that that site is the correctly spelled name of a site that you might want to go to. Note that one of the more popular forms of SPAM these days is offers to sell NAV cheaply (not coming from Symantec), and that one of the variants of sobig claims to be a messa from NAV reporting that you sent a virus-infected letter (details in attachment), which has been rejected. Never open the attachments on these things ... From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Aug 20 20:52:38 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:52:38 -0600 Subject: Additional Warning In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D165BDD@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Aug 2003, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Just today I have received a string of "undeliverable" notices from email > addresses I never sent any mail to. I forward mine to the "abuse" address > at the KU comp center. I think it is possible that someone got hold of the > Siouan list directory. If others of you get this sort of mail, check with > your local university ISP or comp center web site: they probably have > something like an abuse address you can forward your viruses and spam to for > action. There's not much point in forwarding virus mail to an abuse center, as there is no one to track down and complain to. SPAM mail varies. Originally it was mostly return addressed the sender or then someone whose mailing setup had been hijacked. Today a lot of it is pattern automatic stuff with invalid return addresses, but some sort of valid contact address for the customer who purchased the campaign in the body of the letter. It's not worth complaining more than once about particular patterns of SPAM. If you get more than some threshhold number of a pattern of SPAM letter you're better off creating a mail filter that trashes letters that match the pattern. At some point they will start verifying that all incoming and outgoing email addresses are valid, a lot of overhead, I think, and that will cut down on most of the things you see today, when combined with blocking sending sites that won't stop sending validly return-addressed SPAM. At the moment the will to regulate is lacking in a lot of quarters and a few legistators - in the US, anyway - seem to think that unsolicited commercial email is a valid commercial activity. JEK From jfu at centrum.cz Wed Aug 20 17:58:43 2003 From: jfu at centrum.cz (jfu at centrum.cz) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:58:43 --0500 Subject: Your details Message-ID: Please see the attached file for details. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: your_document.pif Type: application/octet-stream Size: 75748 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Aug 20 19:24:44 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (rankin at ku.edu) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:24:44 --0500 Subject: Your details Message-ID: See the attached file for details -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: movie0045.pif Type: application/octet-stream Size: 72756 bytes Desc: not available URL: From vstabler at esu1.org Thu Aug 21 13:27:48 2003 From: vstabler at esu1.org (Vida Stabler) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:27:48 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: UdoN. I'm going out of town I'll call later. Vida Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > Hi, Vida! Glad you are in on the conversation. I'd love to have the > UmoNhoN Language Center's input in planning the conference. A presentation > on the work you and the elders have been doing in Macy would be great -- I > was hoping for something like that anyway, so I'm glad you volunteered it. > Maybe we can arrange a visit to the Center, or maybe you have other ideas. > I'll call you to talk about it. > > Thanks for your invitation -- it's way too long since I've made it over to > the school. I'll try to come see you guys before the semester gets too > messy. Probably on a Tuesday or Thursday afternoon. But I'll call first. > > Talk to you soon. Give my regards to everyone at the Center! > Catherine > > > Vida Stabler > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Sent by: cc: > owner-siouan at lists.c Subject: Re: Siouan Conference > olorado.edu > > > 08/18/03 03:37 PM > Please respond to > siouan > > > > Hi Catherine, now you have my interest. I always wanted to find an > opportunity > where the Siouan group could meet our team here at the UmoNhoN Language > Center. We'd love to be involved with the planning. Maybe we could share > some > of the work we do. Many of you know our team at the School has been > working > with Ardis Eschenberg for over 3 years now. For those of you who don't > know, > the Elders (6), Ardis and I are part of a revitilization effort here on the > Omaha reservation. We have made great gains over the last 3 years and I > will > never again 'bad talk' Linguists (aye!). The Siouan group can really do a > lot > to help Native people with revitilization efforts. We've been at it over 5 > years and could present what we have learned, especially what the Elders > have > taught us. What do you think? > Vida Stabler, UmoNhoN Language Center Director > > Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > > > Hey, all -- I'm finally back home in Nebraska from the Michigan meeting > > (just in time to catch the tail end of the Omaha tribal powwow in Macy, > on > > a scorching hot day) and before I get sidetracked by too many other > things > > I want to check in with everybody about next year's conference. > > > > (1) The conference will be in Wayne, Nebraska, hosted by Wayne State > > College. I talked to my dean and he is enthusiastic about > > supporting/hosting us, so it's definitely a go. > > > > (2) DATE -- Let's aim for early summer -- June or possibly even late > May. > > Say, the weekend of May 29, June 5, 12, 19, 26, or July 3?? Does anyone > > know of conflicts or have preferences among these dates? I know it's > way > > early, but summer has a tendency to get filled up, so I'd like to set a > > date soon ... > > > > (3) Just to get it in writing... the 2005 meeting is tentatively set for > > Oklahoma, with Bob &/or Kathy hosting, no? > > > > Catherine From rankin at ku.edu Thu Aug 21 14:24:26 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:24:26 -0500 Subject: FW: Virus info. Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, It looks as though one of the list members is indeed infected with the "sobig.f" virus/worm. Carolyn Quintero got a message with an attachment from my email address, but I hadn't sent her anything. I use the University's antivirus software and they too filter all incoming email, so apparently I'm not the one who is infected. But someone with me and Carolyn in their address book IS infected. I asked KU about it and got the following response. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Doughty, Liz On Behalf Of KU Abuse Reporting Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 4:22 PM To: Rankin, Robert L Subject: RE: virus? These e-mails most likely come from a virus/worm. You are receiving these messages because your e-mail address is in the e-mail addressbook of someone who has been infected with one of several viruses that can produce e-mails such as the ones you are receiving. When these viruses execute, they gather all the e-mail addresses they can find on the infected computer and secretly send infected messages to all but one of those addresses. The virus then places that one, randomly chosen, address in the From: field of all those infected outgoing messages (your address, in this case). This is so that it will be difficult to determine where the messages really came from, and also means that some innocent person (you) will be wrongly accused. It does NOT mean that you are infected. The returned mail notices you are receiving look like they might be from sobig.f, or one of several other worms that have similar behavior. Information on most of the viruses that have been spotted at KU can be found at http://www.ku.edu/acs/virus/moreviruses.shtml. KU is scanning all incoming and outgoing mail for these and many other viruses/worms, and we are asking that you DO NOT open any attachments that you are not expecting. If you are not running current anti-virus software and are affiliated with KU, you may download KU's free anti-virus package from www.ku.edu/acs/virus. I hope this answers your questions and puts your mind at least a bit at ease. KU Abuse Team -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 3:54 PM To: Abuse Reporting Subject: FW: virus? I have just today received a whole string of these "undeliverable" notices from various persons I do not know and who are not on any list I am a member of. A friend in Colorado has gotten several too and says they contain the "sobig" virus in their attachments. R. Rankin From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Thu Aug 21 15:15:33 2003 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:15:33 -0600 Subject: virus/worm Message-ID: We are indeed sending messages with the "sobig" worm from here, but we can't help it: the problem is at the level of the university server, not individual computers. I'm told that Microsoft has sent us a team to help get rid of it. Meanwhile, we can only apologize -- we're getting the annoying things too -- and tell you to delete the stuff and avoid opening attachments. I don't know the whole story, but Symantec says it's scheduled to de-activate itself on Sept. 10. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Thu Aug 21 15:44:27 2003 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:44:27 -0500 Subject: In Regard to Thanka ec^ha Message-ID: I've received several (4, I think) "your details" e-mails, purportedly from various members of the list. I'll send one to our computer folks, but it might be helpful to send along the name of the virus too, and I foolishly deleted the message with that information... can someone repeat it? Thanks. Catherine From rankin at ku.edu Thu Aug 21 15:57:17 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:57:17 -0500 Subject: In Regard to Thanka ec^ha Message-ID: KU says it is the "sobig.f" virus/worm. That probably means the F variant of that virus, but I'm not sure. Basically, just don't open the "attachment". Any of you who are affiliated with a university or corporation that maintains anti-virus software should probably download the latest additions to their virus DEF files and check your own hard drives. Even if you already have such software, it may need the latest update. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC [mailto:CaRudin1 at wsc.edu] Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 10:44 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: In Regard to Thanka ec^ha I've received several (4, I think) "your details" e-mails, purportedly from various members of the list. I'll send one to our computer folks, but it might be helpful to send along the name of the virus too, and I foolishly deleted the message with that information... can someone repeat it? Thanks. Catherine From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 22 14:41:53 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:41:53 -0500 Subject: Another virus clue. Message-ID: The person on the list who is infected with the sobig computer virus is also a member of PlainsIndianSeminarTwo at Yahoogroups according to the error message I've received. If you are a member of that news group please check your computer. Symantec and McAffee websites have patches you can download to "fix" the problem if you have it. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Yahoo! Groups [mailto:notify at yahoogroups.com] Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 6:00 PM To: rankin at KU.EDU Subject: Unable to process your message We are unable to process the message from to . The email address used to send your message is not subscribed to this group. If you are a member of this group, please be aware that you may only send messages and manage your subscription to this group using the email address(es) you have registered with Yahoo! Groups. Yahoo! Groups allows you to use the email address you originally used to register, or an alternate email address you specify in your personal settings. If you would like to subscribe to this group: 1. visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PlainsIndianSeminartwo/join -OR- 2. send email to PlainsIndianSeminartwo-subscribe at yahoogroups.com If you would like to specify an alternate email address: 1. visit http://groups.yahoo 2. type your alternate email address in the area labeled "Alternate posting addresses". 3. click the "Save Changes" button 4. wait approximately 10 minutes for the change to take effect After you follow these steps, you will be able to send messages to all your groups using this alternate email address. From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Sun Aug 24 20:43:29 2003 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:43:29 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: OK -- having weeded out Memorial Day, Father's Day, family-complication days, and the weekend when both motels are already booked solid for a big family reunion -- and having checked for linguistic conflicts everywhere I could think of -- it looks like the best date for next year's Siouan and Caddoan conference is June 11-13. So mark your calendars!! If anyone spots major problems with this weekend, let me know. It's not quite set in stone. But unless something big comes up, this will be the date. I'll go ahead and reserve blocks of rooms etc. now, so we don't get bumped by someone's wedding or something,. Calls for papers and whatnot will be along eventually -- in a few months -- watch this space. From rankin at ku.edu Sun Aug 24 22:11:50 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 17:11:50 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: That date sounds just fine to me. I'd like to request that you put on your "to do" list getting the SACC on the official meetings calendars of 1. LSA 2. AAA 3. SSILA I've been saying that for over 15 years and we have yet to get information to the proper people in time to get our conference listed in the LSA Bulletin/website, the AAA Newsletter and the SSILA Newsletter. I think it may have made it into one or two of them once or twice, but we really ought to get it in to all three in time for interested scholars to plan ahead. Who knows what Europeans, Indian people or other groups may be out there who don't know about us? Bob -----Original Message----- From: Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC [mailto:CaRudin1 at wsc.edu] Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 3:43 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Siouan Conference OK -- having weeded out Memorial Day, Father's Day, family-complication days, and the weekend when both motels are already booked solid for a big family reunion -- and having checked for linguistic conflicts everywhere I could think of -- it looks like the best date for next year's Siouan and Caddoan conference is June 11-13. So mark your calendars!! If anyone spots major problems with this weekend, let me know. It's not quite set in stone. But unless something big comes up, this will be the date. I'll go ahead and reserve blocks of rooms etc. now, so we don't get bumped by someone's wedding or something,. Calls for papers and whatnot will be along eventually -- in a few months -- watch this space. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 25 06:02:13 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:02:13 -0600 Subject: Siouan Conference In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164D30@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Aug 2003, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I'd like to request that you put on your "to do" list getting the SACC on > the official meetings calendars of > > 1. LSA > 2. AAA > 3. SSILA I'd add the Linguist List to this. From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Mon Aug 25 08:26:34 2003 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (Heike =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=F6deker?=) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:26:34 +0200 Subject: Siouan Conference In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164D30@meadowlark2.home.ku .edu> Message-ID: At 17:11 24.08.03 -0500, Rankin, Robert L wrote: >Who knows what Europeans, Indian people or other groups may be out there >who don't know about us? As for the former, how 'bout adding Yumtzilob and European Review of Native Studies to the list? All the best, Heike From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Mon Aug 25 14:27:29 2003 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:27:29 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: > I'd like to request that you put on your "to do" list getting the SACC on > the official meetings calendars of > > 1. LSA > 2. AAA > 3. SSILA >I'd add the Linguist List to this. >... how 'bout adding Yumtzilob and European Review of Native >Studies to the list? ------- Thanks for all the good suggestions. Will do! Catherine From rankin at ku.edu Mon Aug 25 15:14:44 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:14:44 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: >Who knows what Europeans, Indian people or other groups may be out there >who don't know about us? >As for the former, how 'bout adding Yumtzilob and European Review of Native Studies to the list? I guess it would probably be a good idea to write up a little blurb mentioning what we're about too, so unfamiliar readers will have some idea of what to expect (and not expect). I'd like to see the conference grow some. Or, as George W. Bush would say "We'd like to grow the conference." Lots of new causatives in English nowadays. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 25 16:09:34 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:09:34 -0600 Subject: Siouan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One thing folks can do in this line is to post the announcement to this list and ask subscribers to repost it wherever they think appropriate. That's how SACC announcements used to get to places like Linguist List. I'd receive the announcement sent out manually by David or someone else and repost it on my own. We've gotten a bit sloppier with the existence of the Siouan list and verged sometimes on the stylish new instant mob approach. From vstabler at esu1.org Tue Aug 26 17:08:46 2003 From: vstabler at esu1.org (Vida Stabler) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:08:46 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference Message-ID: Siouan List, June 11th falls on UmoNhoN Nation Public School's summer. Unfortunately, students will be enjoying their summer by then but we'll work something out. The logistics of the school or WSC can be worked out too. VSS "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: > Sounds like a winner to me. Maybe one of the sessions could be held at > Macy?? > > Bob > > > Hi Catherine, now you have my interest. I always wanted to find an > opportunity > where the Siouan group could meet our team here at the UmoNhoN Language > Center. We'd love to be involved with the planning. Maybe we could share > some > of the work we do.