From nancyh at linguist.umass.edu Wed May 7 23:32:48 2003 From: nancyh at linguist.umass.edu (Nancy E Hall) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 19:32:48 -0400 Subject: Winnebago accent: instrumental studies? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm writing to ask whether anyone knows of phonetic studies on Winnebago accent, and if not, whether anyone would be interested in collaborating on one. There has been much discussion and many competing theories of Winnebago accent, but as far as I know, no published phonetic work on the phenomenon. Such a study would be useful, because there are some contradictions among different sources as to where accent falls, particularly in Dorsey's Law (DL) sequences. Miner 1979 shows DL words like [kere] with a secondary accent on the first vowel and primary accent on the second vowel. But he notes: "perceptually, in the nonreduplicated fast [DL] sequences, it sometimes happens that the secondarily accented syllable has almost as much accent as, or even as much as (but never more than) the primarily accented one. It may be this that caused Lipkind to write stress only on the C1V1 portion of fast sequences, an error which persists through Wolff to Matthews and beyond." In later writings, however, Miner omits the secondary accent, showing only a primary accent on the second vowel. This last transcription is what's assumed by most theoretical studies, and it's rarely acknowledged that three different transcriptions of these words have been proposed: primary accent on first vowel; primary accent on second vowel; and primary accent on second vowel with secondary accent on first. I've recently been making pitch tracks from tapes of Gerd Fraenkel's elicitation sessions (the only audio material I've been able to track down), which are archived at IU. In the two tokens I've found of a DL sequence in isolation, the pitch track shows a fairly level pitch throughout the two vowels, perhaps with a very slight rise on the second, and then a small fall at the end. This constrasts dramatically with non-DL disyllables, in which the second vowel clearly has higher pitch than the second. In other words, the pitch tracks seem more consistent with an analysis that does assign some accent to the first vowel of a DL sequence-- or in some other way distinguishes their accentual structure from that of regular disyllables. Of course, this observation is based on only two tokens, and I don't know whether dialect differences, list intonation, etc. might be involved. Nevertheless, the fact that this discrepancy comes exactly in the case where there has been disagreement about the data suggests there may be something to it. Is there anyone who has contact with Winnebago speakers who would be interested in eliciting some data to test this hypothesis? I'd be happy to do all the phonetic analysis, but cannot do fieldwork anytime soon. --Nancy Hall Rutgers University From hhgarvin at hotmail.com Thu May 8 00:46:41 2003 From: hhgarvin at hotmail.com (Henning Garvin) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 19:46:41 -0500 Subject: Winnebago accent: instrumental studies? Message-ID: Don't know if you've seen any of my posts. I am currently a Senior in Linguistics at UW-Madison, graduating in a few weeks. I am also Ho-Chunk, and I have a job working at our Tribal Langauge Preservation Department starting this summer. I'd be happy to help out in any way possible. Just let me know what you are looking for. The Language program has a fairly modern recording room, and I was already planning on recording as much data as possible. The next week and a half is busy (finals, papers, etc.) but I will be starting work on the 19th of this month. We can obviously correspond some more and hammer something out. Let me know what you think. Henning Garvin UW-Madison Anthropology/Linguistics >From: Nancy E Hall >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Winnebago accent: instrumental studies? >Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 19:32:48 -0400 (EDT) > > > I'm writing to ask whether anyone knows of phonetic studies on >Winnebago accent, and if not, whether anyone would be interested in >collaborating on one. > There has been much discussion and many competing theories of >Winnebago accent, but as far as I know, no published phonetic work on the >phenomenon. Such a study would be useful, because there are some >contradictions among different sources as to where accent falls, >particularly in Dorsey's Law (DL) sequences. Miner 1979 shows DL words >like [kere] with a secondary accent on the first vowel and primary accent >on the second vowel. But he notes: "perceptually, in the nonreduplicated >fast [DL] sequences, it sometimes happens that the secondarily accented >syllable has almost as much accent as, or even as much as (but never more >than) the primarily accented one. It may be this that caused Lipkind to >write stress only on the C1V1 portion of fast sequences, an error which >persists through Wolff to Matthews and beyond." In later writings, >however, Miner omits the secondary accent, showing only a primary accent >on the second vowel. This last transcription is what's assumed by most >theoretical studies, and it's rarely acknowledged that three different >transcriptions of these words have been proposed: primary accent on first >vowel; primary accent on second vowel; and primary accent on second vowel >with secondary accent on first. > I've recently been making pitch tracks from tapes of Gerd >Fraenkel's elicitation sessions (the only audio material I've been able to >track down), which are archived at IU. In the two tokens I've found of a >DL sequence in isolation, the pitch track shows a fairly level pitch >throughout the two vowels, perhaps with a very slight rise on the second, >and then a small fall at the end. This constrasts dramatically with non-DL >disyllables, in which the second vowel clearly has higher pitch than the >second. In other words, the pitch tracks seem more consistent with an >analysis that does assign some accent to the first vowel of a DL >sequence-- or in some other way distinguishes their accentual structure >from that of regular disyllables. > Of course, this observation is based on only two tokens, and I >don't know whether dialect differences, list intonation, etc. might be >involved. Nevertheless, the fact that this discrepancy comes exactly in >the case where there has been disagreement about the data suggests there >may be something to it. > Is there anyone who has contact with Winnebago speakers who would >be interested in eliciting some data to test this hypothesis? I'd be >happy to do all the phonetic analysis, but cannot do fieldwork anytime >soon. > >--Nancy Hall > >Rutgers University > _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From rankin at ku.edu Thu May 8 20:56:01 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 15:56:01 -0500 Subject: Winnebago accent. Message-ID: I think an instrumental study of Winnebago accent would be really interesting. It looks very much as if earlier stages of most Siouan languages had pitch rather than stress accent. That is certainly still the case to day in some of them (it's been fairly well-studied in Crow, for example). Pitch accent might well explain why a lot of the talented amateurs of the 19th and 20th centuries had trouble marking it in a variety of Siouan dialects. Dorsey's Biloxi is a salient example of the problems. It would be very important to determine exactly where conservative speakers are placing accent on words. Is it on the syllable or mora with the HIGHEST pitch or on the syllable or more where the pitch DROPS? There are a lot of answers that we don't know. I've always distrusted the ability of instrumental phonetics to tell us very much about native speakers' phonologies, simply because speakers "perceive" things that clearly are not there and systematically fail to perceive things that demonstrably are there. But at least a good phonetic study will let us know what IS there, whether or not it matches the phonological judgments of speakers. I hope you get some really clear and good results the rest of us can use. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc Tue May 20 18:15:16 2003 From: Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc (Louis Garcia) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:15:16 -0500 Subject: Hocak Website Message-ID: Hi gang: While surfacing the web I ran across this great site. http://hotcakencyclopedia.com/ later, LouieG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nancyh at linguist.umass.edu Wed May 7 23:32:48 2003 From: nancyh at linguist.umass.edu (Nancy E Hall) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 19:32:48 -0400 Subject: Winnebago accent: instrumental studies? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm writing to ask whether anyone knows of phonetic studies on Winnebago accent, and if not, whether anyone would be interested in collaborating on one. There has been much discussion and many competing theories of Winnebago accent, but as far as I know, no published phonetic work on the phenomenon. Such a study would be useful, because there are some contradictions among different sources as to where accent falls, particularly in Dorsey's Law (DL) sequences. Miner 1979 shows DL words like [kere] with a secondary accent on the first vowel and primary accent on the second vowel. But he notes: "perceptually, in the nonreduplicated fast [DL] sequences, it sometimes happens that the secondarily accented syllable has almost as much accent as, or even as much as (but never more than) the primarily accented one. It may be this that caused Lipkind to write stress only on the C1V1 portion of fast sequences, an error which persists through Wolff to Matthews and beyond." In later writings, however, Miner omits the secondary accent, showing only a primary accent on the second vowel. This last transcription is what's assumed by most theoretical studies, and it's rarely acknowledged that three different transcriptions of these words have been proposed: primary accent on first vowel; primary accent on second vowel; and primary accent on second vowel with secondary accent on first. I've recently been making pitch tracks from tapes of Gerd Fraenkel's elicitation sessions (the only audio material I've been able to track down), which are archived at IU. In the two tokens I've found of a DL sequence in isolation, the pitch track shows a fairly level pitch throughout the two vowels, perhaps with a very slight rise on the second, and then a small fall at the end. This constrasts dramatically with non-DL disyllables, in which the second vowel clearly has higher pitch than the second. In other words, the pitch tracks seem more consistent with an analysis that does assign some accent to the first vowel of a DL sequence-- or in some other way distinguishes their accentual structure from that of regular disyllables. Of course, this observation is based on only two tokens, and I don't know whether dialect differences, list intonation, etc. might be involved. Nevertheless, the fact that this discrepancy comes exactly in the case where there has been disagreement about the data suggests there may be something to it. Is there anyone who has contact with Winnebago speakers who would be interested in eliciting some data to test this hypothesis? I'd be happy to do all the phonetic analysis, but cannot do fieldwork anytime soon. --Nancy Hall Rutgers University From hhgarvin at hotmail.com Thu May 8 00:46:41 2003 From: hhgarvin at hotmail.com (Henning Garvin) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 19:46:41 -0500 Subject: Winnebago accent: instrumental studies? Message-ID: Don't know if you've seen any of my posts. I am currently a Senior in Linguistics at UW-Madison, graduating in a few weeks. I am also Ho-Chunk, and I have a job working at our Tribal Langauge Preservation Department starting this summer. I'd be happy to help out in any way possible. Just let me know what you are looking for. The Language program has a fairly modern recording room, and I was already planning on recording as much data as possible. The next week and a half is busy (finals, papers, etc.) but I will be starting work on the 19th of this month. We can obviously correspond some more and hammer something out. Let me know what you think. Henning Garvin UW-Madison Anthropology/Linguistics >From: Nancy E Hall >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Winnebago accent: instrumental studies? >Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 19:32:48 -0400 (EDT) > > > I'm writing to ask whether anyone knows of phonetic studies on >Winnebago accent, and if not, whether anyone would be interested in >collaborating on one. > There has been much discussion and many competing theories of >Winnebago accent, but as far as I know, no published phonetic work on the >phenomenon. Such a study would be useful, because there are some >contradictions among different sources as to where accent falls, >particularly in Dorsey's Law (DL) sequences. Miner 1979 shows DL words >like [kere] with a secondary accent on the first vowel and primary accent >on the second vowel. But he notes: "perceptually, in the nonreduplicated >fast [DL] sequences, it sometimes happens that the secondarily accented >syllable has almost as much accent as, or even as much as (but never more >than) the primarily accented one. It may be this that caused Lipkind to >write stress only on the C1V1 portion of fast sequences, an error which >persists through Wolff to Matthews and beyond." In later writings, >however, Miner omits the secondary accent, showing only a primary accent >on the second vowel. This last transcription is what's assumed by most >theoretical studies, and it's rarely acknowledged that three different >transcriptions of these words have been proposed: primary accent on first >vowel; primary accent on second vowel; and primary accent on second vowel >with secondary accent on first. > I've recently been making pitch tracks from tapes of Gerd >Fraenkel's elicitation sessions (the only audio material I've been able to >track down), which are archived at IU. In the two tokens I've found of a >DL sequence in isolation, the pitch track shows a fairly level pitch >throughout the two vowels, perhaps with a very slight rise on the second, >and then a small fall at the end. This constrasts dramatically with non-DL >disyllables, in which the second vowel clearly has higher pitch than the >second. In other words, the pitch tracks seem more consistent with an >analysis that does assign some accent to the first vowel of a DL >sequence-- or in some other way distinguishes their accentual structure >from that of regular disyllables. > Of course, this observation is based on only two tokens, and I >don't know whether dialect differences, list intonation, etc. might be >involved. Nevertheless, the fact that this discrepancy comes exactly in >the case where there has been disagreement about the data suggests there >may be something to it. > Is there anyone who has contact with Winnebago speakers who would >be interested in eliciting some data to test this hypothesis? I'd be >happy to do all the phonetic analysis, but cannot do fieldwork anytime >soon. > >--Nancy Hall > >Rutgers University > _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From rankin at ku.edu Thu May 8 20:56:01 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 15:56:01 -0500 Subject: Winnebago accent. Message-ID: I think an instrumental study of Winnebago accent would be really interesting. It looks very much as if earlier stages of most Siouan languages had pitch rather than stress accent. That is certainly still the case to day in some of them (it's been fairly well-studied in Crow, for example). Pitch accent might well explain why a lot of the talented amateurs of the 19th and 20th centuries had trouble marking it in a variety of Siouan dialects. Dorsey's Biloxi is a salient example of the problems. It would be very important to determine exactly where conservative speakers are placing accent on words. Is it on the syllable or mora with the HIGHEST pitch or on the syllable or more where the pitch DROPS? There are a lot of answers that we don't know. I've always distrusted the ability of instrumental phonetics to tell us very much about native speakers' phonologies, simply because speakers "perceive" things that clearly are not there and systematically fail to perceive things that demonstrably are there. But at least a good phonetic study will let us know what IS there, whether or not it matches the phonological judgments of speakers. I hope you get some really clear and good results the rest of us can use. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc Tue May 20 18:15:16 2003 From: Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc (Louis Garcia) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:15:16 -0500 Subject: Hocak Website Message-ID: Hi gang: While surfacing the web I ran across this great site. http://hotcakencyclopedia.com/ later, LouieG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: