From rankin at ku.edu Sat Nov 1 16:06:24 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 10:06:24 -0600 Subject: butterfly Message-ID: > What's of special interest, of course, in the present contect, is that > element nic^a in the Santee form. I'm pretty sure that's nic^a, not > nic^ha, and I suspect it's a contextual variant of *yiNka 'little'. I > think that's regularly c^hiNc^a' 'child' in Dakotan. I suspect that in > contexts that allow *y to be intervocalic, it can be rhoticized and the > resulting *riNka would appear as ni(N)c^a in Dakotan. > This element could also be nic^a < *riNke 'to lack', but I don't see how > that would work. I'd have to say that neither works for me. Dhegiha doesn't seem to share in any of these varieties of 'little' with /n-/ as far as I can tell. Doublets /z^iNka/ 'little' and /z^iN/ 'diminutive' are common, but I can't recall any at all with /n/. > Winnebago, which merges *r and *y regularly, has niNk as a diminutive, as > in wake'(niNk) 'raccoon', s^uNuNgniNk 'puppy', and so on. But not in the South. > Of course, whether or not nic^a is 'little', it's clearly a good match for > the Quapaw nikka. It would be a regular match if Quapaw had nika. I think that is entirely possible, especially given Osage /hkihtanika/ with the single /k/, written by LF. It's a bit strange, given that Dorsey didn't often confuse the lax with the other series of stops (very often confusing the aspirated and tense ones), but he does it on occasion, even in Kansa. Just last week I was reading one of the historical texts aloud for the language program and ran across several instances of /ga:yo/ 'then', written . So I suspect you're right and that Quapaw has /-nika/. BTW, Biloxi has /tiNskana'/ 'jay', with simple /tiNska/ meaning 'back of the neck'. But Ofo is /teska itho:hi/ 'bluejay' = 'bird' + 'blue'. And tiNska/teska may somehow be related, given the Dakotan and other forms. > Presumably something like this explains ppiza, too. Naw, that was just my mistake for 'sand', which has /pp/. My memory is fading.... Dorsey's "philosophy" of transcription was slightly different from ours. I explained it in my (yes, unpublished) paper on Biloxi stops. But it was similar in that he tended to use unmodified letters for sounds he considered the least "marked", and, for him, those were the sounds most like English. So unmodified ptk were used for aspirates (which they mostly are in English). The ones he wrote with diacritics were those he considered most remarkable, i.e., least like English. He wrote them with the little x beneath (LaFlesche's dot) and they were printed upside down. The bottom line is that the diacritic is always used on the most lenis voiceless series. Unfortunately this means that the languages with voiced lax stops (Omaha, Ponca and Kaw) use the subscript x for voiceless tense stops, while Quapaw and Osage, which lack a voiced series, use the x for the voiceless lax stops. Confused? Well, anyway, I think John is right that Quapaw probably has /nika/ in 'jay'. Bob From goodtracks at GBRonline.com Sat Nov 1 23:59:16 2003 From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 17:59:16 -0600 Subject: iron/ metal Message-ID: Bob: Has it been determined the source of the word iron [maza (L/Dak); madhe (IO); maNaNs (Winn); maNze (Q/K)]. There was no known use of metal or iron prior to the trading days with Europeans. So is the word borrowed? Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Rankin" To: Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 7:37 PM Subject: Re: butterfly > > Quapaw ttitta is 'living' according to Alice Gilmore, > the very lively lady I recorded some Quapaw with in > 1972. As in the term /maNzettitta/ 'clock' < "living > iron". > > Kansa wakkuje is 'shooting'. > > FWIW, > > Bob > > > From rankin at ku.edu Sun Nov 2 15:27:32 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 09:27:32 -0600 Subject: iron/ metal Message-ID: Hi Jimm, > Has it been determined the source of the word iron [maza (L/Dak); madhe > (IO); maNaNs (Winn); maNze (Q/K)]. > There was no known use of metal or iron prior to the trading days with > Europeans. So is the word borrowed? You ask a real good question and not one for which there is a clear answer. A couple of things though: 1. Metal was available in precontact times even though smelted metals were not used in the Western Hemisphere. Copper occurs in its metalic form in nature. There are places where pieces of it can be found lying around on the surface of the ground. This copper can be hammered into a variety of shapes and this happened. 2. Meteorites might also provide a small amount of iron. I don't think they had the means to melt it into various shapes, but, again, it could be pounded. But metallurgy is very recent all over the world. The "Iron Age" doesn't begin in Europe until around 4 thousand years ago. Before that, all they had was copper (sometimes mixed with a little tin to form bronze) too. A friend of mine in California collected the words for 'metal' in all the languages he could find -- European, Asian, American and all the rest. The words display some amazing similarities in form/pronunciation. I think his contention might be that they all spread out from some spot in the Old World where smelting of iron ore began, including into the new world. But it is controversial, as you can imagine. With Siouan, it is conceivable that 'iron' comes from the older root for 'flint, chert', something like *waN-. But that too is just a guess. I really need to get your disks back to you, even though you got the dictionary from Ken, and pick up my Wordperfect. . . . :-) Bob From rankin at ku.edu Sun Nov 2 15:33:58 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 09:33:58 -0600 Subject: iron/ metal Message-ID: Oops. Sorry, I thought I was corresponding with Jimm personally rather than with the whole list! Sorry to bother everyone with personal business. I was rescuing some material for him from an old 5 inch floppy onto a 3 " one. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Nov 3 17:19:07 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 10:19:07 -0700 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] In-Reply-To: <000901c3a155$e9c2b690$d1b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Nov 2003, R. Rankin wrote: > > Query from Jimm Good Tracks > > Has it been determined the source of the word iron [maza (L/Dak); > > madhe (IO); maNaNs (Winn); maNze (Q/K)]. There was no known use of > > metal or iron prior to the trading days with Europeans. > > So is the word borrowed? > > A friend of mine in California collected the words for 'metal' in all > the languages he could find -- European, Asian, American and all the > rest. The words display some amazing similarities in > form/pronunciation. I think his contention might be that they all > spread out from some spot in the Old World where smelting of iron ore > began, including into the new world. But it is controversial, as you > can imagine. Precontact artifacts made from copper occur with some frequency in the Midwest. As far as I know they are all ornamental an/or religious, i.e., not pots or weapons. Anyway, copper is the most likely original reference of the "metal" term set. Meteoritic iron is another possibility, as Bob suggests, and silver and gold were certainly worked in Mesoamerica, and if any small samples found their way into the Midwest they may or may not have been considered as "metal." Plainly various metals acquired later in trade were plainly considered so and today the "metal term" is usually considered to mean "iron." I remember Victor Golla (in California, but perhaps not the indivudual Bob refers to) asking about the Siouan terms. I gather they somewhat resemble terms of similar reference in Athabascan languages, but I don't know the details. My recollection is that *waNs- "metal" has a rather restricted distribution in Siouan and some irregularities associated with it, so that it is actually a fairly good candidate for a loan, if an old one. Alternatively, there is enough of a resemblance to 'chest' that I've sometimes wondered about 'pectoral (making material)' as a source, with pectoral in the sense of a chest ornament - what was once called a gorget, as an element of European military ornamentation, though I don't mean to suggest a connection. I tend to think that the fairly widespread expression for "money," 'white metal', cf., e.g., OP maNze ska, more or less maN(s)ska in regular speech, was originally a calque of French argent, i.e., 'white metal' = 'silver'. I don't know how widely spread 'white metal' formations are in North America. It might be interesting to track down the distributions of forms like this, 'fire water' (< eau ardent?), and so on. I believe they occur in at least Siouan and Algonquian, and I think they are probably more or less coextensive with such probable actual loans as kkokkomaN 'cucumber' or kkukkusi 'pig' (OP forms), presumably from concombre and (certainly from) couscous, or, for that matter s^aglas^a 'British' (Da) or ragras^iN 'British' (IO), presumably from les Anglais/l'Anglais. I know some of these forms have been investigated, but I don't think anyone has done it systematically, but only term by term. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Nov 3 17:57:07 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 10:57:07 -0700 Subject: butterfly In-Reply-To: <001301c3a092$2e1519b0$d1b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Nov 2003, R. Rankin wrote: > I'd have to say that neither works for me. Dhegiha doesn't seem to share > in any of these varieties of 'little' with /n-/ as far as I can tell. > Doublets /z^iNka/ 'little' and /z^iN/ 'diminutive' are common, but I > can't recall any at all with /n/. It would certainly be unusual - read phonologically irregular - to have *yiNk- 'be small' appear as if from *riNk- in either Dhegiha or Dakotan, so, of course, it would be a long shot. I tried to suggest a compound-internal context as the conditioning factor. It does look like a comparably similar element, whatever it is. > > Winnebago, which merges *r and *y regularly, has niNk as a diminutive, > > as in wake'(niNk) 'raccoon', s^uNuNgniNk 'puppy', ... > > But not in the South. Where - in case it's not clear - Bob means, 'not in Dhegiha', not 'not in Nebraska Winnebago'. > I think that is entirely possible, especially given Osage /hkihtanika/ > with the single /k/, written by LF. > BTW, Biloxi has /tiNskana'/ 'jay', with simple /tiNska/ meaning 'back of > the neck'. But Ofo is /teska itho:hi/ 'bluejay' = 'bird' + 'blue'. > And tiNska/teska may somehow be related, given the Dakotan and other > forms. I think that all the somewhat irregularly matching TV(s) syllables here are onomatopoeic representations of the jay's "jay" call. For example, I suspect tiNskana and teska are essentially tiNs-ka (+ ???) and tes-ka 'one (that goes) tiNs' or 'one (that goes) tes'. It's hard to say, of course, with onomatopoeic terms. They can include non-imitative morphology, and once formulated they undergo sound changes like everything else, so that when inherited they often have a family-typical form and may correspond regularly, but, by definition they are imitative in origin, and they are prone to being refreshed, which can produce irregularities. In fact you have to expect both rather regular-looking similarities and irregularities. In this respect onomatopoeics are a lot like loans, which, in effect they are. It helps to know what sorts of terms are often onomatopoeic, and what the onomatopoeic basis of particular terms might sound like. Bird names are often onomatopoeic (think of whippoorwill), but can be borrowed (jay) or inherited (crow) for all that. One pattern I haven't noticed in Siouan is using "nicknames" for birds - things like robin (redbreast) or magpie or tomtit. Of course, names are not used in as many contexts in Siouan cultures as they are in European cultures, but maybe I just don't recognize the examples when I see them. From kdshea at ku.edu Mon Nov 3 18:45:27 2003 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 12:45:27 -0600 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] Message-ID: MaN'ze (or perhaps long--maNaN'ze--since it does contrast with the word maNze' 'breast' in OP) 'metal' is used in a lot of words for modern inventions or machinery, like maNaNze waaN 'phonograph'; 'radio.' It's in the word for 'sewing machine,' which I can't recall off the top of my head right now and in several other words, probably some for farming implements. I had never thought about the words maNze 'breast' and maNge 'chest' in OP having a connection in a shared morpheme maN- 'pectoral,' but it certainly makes sense. Kathy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: "Siouan List" Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 11:19 AM Subject: Re: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] > On Sun, 2 Nov 2003, R. Rankin wrote: > > > Query from Jimm Good Tracks > > > Has it been determined the source of the word iron [maza (L/Dak); > > > madhe (IO); maNaNs (Winn); maNze (Q/K)]. There was no known use of > > > metal or iron prior to the trading days with Europeans. > > > So is the word borrowed? > > > > A friend of mine in California collected the words for 'metal' in all > > the languages he could find -- European, Asian, American and all the > > rest. The words display some amazing similarities in > > form/pronunciation. I think his contention might be that they all > > spread out from some spot in the Old World where smelting of iron ore > > began, including into the new world. But it is controversial, as you > > can imagine. > > Precontact artifacts made from copper occur with some frequency in the > Midwest. As far as I know they are all ornamental an/or religious, i.e., > not pots or weapons. Anyway, copper is the most likely original reference > of the "metal" term set. Meteoritic iron is another possibility, as Bob > suggests, and silver and gold were certainly worked in Mesoamerica, and if > any small samples found their way into the Midwest they may or may not > have been considered as "metal." Plainly various metals acquired later in > trade were plainly considered so and today the "metal term" is usually > considered to mean "iron." > > I remember Victor Golla (in California, but perhaps not the indivudual Bob > refers to) asking about the Siouan terms. I gather they somewhat resemble > terms of similar reference in Athabascan languages, but I don't know the > details. > > My recollection is that *waNs- "metal" has a rather restricted > distribution in Siouan and some irregularities associated with it, so that > it is actually a fairly good candidate for a loan, if an old one. > Alternatively, there is enough of a resemblance to 'chest' that I've > sometimes wondered about 'pectoral (making material)' as a source, with > pectoral in the sense of a chest ornament - what was once called a gorget, > as an element of European military ornamentation, though I don't mean to > suggest a connection. > > I tend to think that the fairly widespread expression for "money," 'white > metal', cf., e.g., OP maNze ska, more or less maN(s)ska in regular speech, > was originally a calque of French argent, i.e., 'white metal' = 'silver'. > I don't know how widely spread 'white metal' formations are in North > America. It might be interesting to track down the distributions of forms > like this, 'fire water' (< eau ardent?), and so on. I believe they occur > in at least Siouan and Algonquian, and I think they are probably more or > less coextensive with such probable actual loans as kkokkomaN 'cucumber' > or kkukkusi 'pig' (OP forms), presumably from concombre and (certainly > from) couscous, or, for that matter s^aglas^a 'British' (Da) or ragras^iN > 'British' (IO), presumably from les Anglais/l'Anglais. I know some of > these forms have been investigated, but I don't think anyone has done it > systematically, but only term by term. > > JEK From hhgarvin at hotmail.com Mon Nov 3 18:46:53 2003 From: hhgarvin at hotmail.com (Henning Garvin) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 12:46:53 -0600 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] Message-ID: >Precontact artifacts made from copper occur with some frequency in the >Midwest. As far as I know they are all ornamental an/or religious, i.e., >not pots or weapons. Anyway, copper is the most likely original reference >of the "metal" term set. Meteoritic iron is another possibility, as Bob >suggests, and silver and gold were certainly worked in Mesoamerica, and if >any small samples found their way into the Midwest they may or may not >have been considered as "metal." Plainly various metals acquired later in >trade were plainly considered so and today the "metal term" is usually >considered to mean "iron." > Sorry, but the archaeologist in me is about to come out. It is true that copper artifacts occur quite frequently in pre-contact times. But if you look at the Old Copper Complex, you see a wide range of utilitarian goods being made from copper, so the distribution was not solely restricted to personal adornment and items of a spiritual nature. There is actually a number of weapon types that came from this period which have been identified. I really only know this because my capstone class for anthrolopogy focused on pre-historic warfare in the midwest region. As far as Hocank is concerned, the form ' maNaNs' refers to metal, mainly iron, and my informants have told me that the word for copper is 'maNaNs shuuc' or red metal. I'm not sure this helps the discussion, but I thought I'd share. _________________________________________________________________ Fretting that your Hotmail account may expire because you forgot to sign in enough? Get Hotmail Extra Storage today! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es From kdshea at ku.edu Mon Nov 3 19:40:09 2003 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 13:40:09 -0600 Subject: Affrication Diminutive Marker (Re: butterfly) Message-ID: I've found that it's true that speakers of Ponca tend to use both the dental-stop variant and the affricated variant of words interchangeably or recognize only one as the "real" form. However, I have noticed that there's some productive use of the distinction to create new vocabulary. I have only one consultant right now, Uncle Parrish Williams--and I really need to check with more speakers--but he firmly maintains that ttu means 'blue' and c^c^u means 'green.' He says that maNs^c^iNge is 'cottontail' (maNs^tiska 'jack rabbit'--with oral, not nasal i) and that maNs^tiNge is the general word for 'rabbit.' He flatly rejects wathis^ka 'creek, brook' in favor of wac^his^ka. However, he says that waxc^a ~waxta are "about the same" and both mean 'flower, fruit,' although I thought that one time he said one meant 'flower' and the other 'fruit.' Similarly, he once said there is a difference in gradation between the forms of the intensifier xc^i and xti 'very, real,' but, when I last asked, he said they were pretty much the same. In Ponca, du'ba 'some' (contrasting with duu'ba 'four,' by the way, which has a long vowel) and j^uba 'few' are distinct in their meanings. The uncomfortable homophony that John mentions between wac^hi'gaag^e 'to dance' and c^hi 'to have sex with' is often avoided in Ponca by substitution with the more "polite" term naNthe 'to dance' (literally, 'to kick'). It's also true that Ponca makes use of affrication of dental stops for a diminuative effect, or "baby talk" (what John calls "grandmother speech"), as in "Dha?e'c^hewadhe!" 'You poor thing!' (said to a child) compared to "Dha?e'thewadhe!" (said to an adult), with the same meaning. This brings to mind a "xuube" joke that I was told: A woman sees a little nest of baby mice and says to the other people nearby, "J^u'ama j^NaN'baia!" ("Du'ama daNaN'baia!") 'Look at these!' To which her husband replies, "J^am!" 'Damn!' Kathy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 11:47 AM Subject: Affrication Diminutive Marker (Re: butterfly) > On Wed, 29 Oct 2003, Mark-Awakuni Swetland wrote: > > currently my two speakers working with the UNL Omaha language class go > > back and forth between wati'ninika and wachi'ninika ... The second form > > is new to me since working with these particular speakers. > > It's really pretty intertesting the number of variants for various things > available among the now fairly small set of Omaha and Ponca speakers. It > shows the weakness of working with single speakers instead of communities > in trying to draw a picture of something as big as a language. > > Anyway, as has been mentioned before, Omaha-Ponca seems to have a form of > diminutive marking that involves changing dentals to affricates: d tt th > t? to j^ c^c^ c^h c^?. In the new Popular Orthography, this would be d t > tH t' to j ch chH ch', I think, with capitals here for raised letters. > For some words both variants are available, at least within the community > as a whole, whereas for others only one form is attested. What I've > sometimes referred to as grandmother speech shows up in some Dorsey texts > and seems to involve very heavy use of this process. > > Other examples of the process include du'ba ~ j^uba 'some', iNthaN ~ > iNc^haN 'now ~ right now', wathis^ka ~ wac^his^ka 'creek', c^c^eska > 'small', iNc^haNga 'mouse', maNc^hu 'grizzley', maNs^tiNge ~ maNs^c^iNge > 'rabbit', wac^higaghe 'to dance', (historically unrelated to former) c^hi > 'to have sex with', t?e ~ c^?e 'die' (only in grandmother speech example, > if I recall) and so on. > > Speakers encountering a variant unfamiliar to them tend to reject it out > of hand as wrong, so this is probably not a productive process today. > From rankin at ku.edu Mon Nov 3 19:48:37 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 13:48:37 -0600 Subject: iron/ metal Message-ID: > I remember Victor Golla (in California, but perhaps not the indivudual Bob refers to) asking about the Siouan terms. I gather they somewhat resemble terms of similar reference in Athabascan languages, but I don't know the details. Yes, I was thinking about Victor's SSILA paper in 1997 or so. Not only did the metal terms in Siouan resemble others in North America, they resembled those found in Uralic and other Old World language families. He wasn't sure what to make of it and neither am I. But I wouldn't rule out migration of the term across the Bering Strait; it would just have to be proved, that's all. I have his handout around here somewhere, but if you could see the piles of paper in my office, you wouldn't expect me to be able to find it. :=) Bob From rankin at ku.edu Mon Nov 3 19:57:38 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 13:57:38 -0600 Subject: bird. Message-ID: > But not in the South. > Where - in case it's not clear - Bob means, 'not in Dhegiha', not 'not in Nebraska Winnebago'. Right. > BTW, Biloxi has /tiNskana'/ 'jay', with simple /tiNska/ meaning 'back of the neck'. But Ofo is /teska itho:hi/ 'bluejay' = 'bird' + 'blue'. And tiNska/teska may somehow be related, given the Dakotan and other forms. > I think that all the somewhat irregularly matching TV(s) syllables here are onomatopoeic representations of the jay's "jay" call. For example, I suspect tiNskana and teska are essentially tiNs-ka (+ ???) and tes-ka 'one (that goes) tiNs' or 'one (that goes) tes'. Possibly so, but Ofo /teska/ is 'bird' of any kind, not just jay. In pointing that out, I was trying to cast a bit of doubt about the JOD Biloxi form. Dorsey classifies it with the 'back of the neck' term, but I wonder if it isn't related to the Ofo 'bird' term, with 'back of the neck' in Biloxi being a mere homonym. Dorsey and Swanton's lexical materials are full of homonyms listed under single dictionary entries. Bob From munro at ucla.edu Mon Nov 3 20:08:37 2003 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 12:08:37 -0800 Subject: bird. In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164DB3@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I haven't been following all this as carefully as I should have, but we're getting into larger territories to the South here. Chickasaw has tIshkila 'bluejay' (the cap I is nasalized), with an "expressive" form tIsh tIsh tIsh aachi (characteristically three CVC syllables plus 'say') which my teacher tells me means 'to make a noise like a bluebird'. Pam Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > >>But not in the South. >> >> > > > >>Where - in case it's not clear - Bob means, 'not in Dhegiha', not 'not >> >> >in Nebraska Winnebago'. > >Right. > > > >>BTW, Biloxi has /tiNskana'/ 'jay', with simple /tiNska/ meaning 'back >> >> >of the neck'. But Ofo is /teska itho:hi/ 'bluejay' = 'bird' + 'blue'. >And tiNska/teska may somehow be related, given the Dakotan and other >forms. > > > >>I think that all the somewhat irregularly matching TV(s) syllables >> >> >here are onomatopoeic representations of the jay's "jay" call. For >example, I suspect tiNskana and teska are essentially tiNs-ka (+ ???) >and tes-ka 'one (that goes) tiNs' or 'one (that goes) tes'. > >Possibly so, but Ofo /teska/ is 'bird' of any kind, not just jay. In >pointing that out, I was trying to cast a bit of doubt about the JOD >Biloxi form. Dorsey classifies it with the 'back of the neck' term, but >I wonder if it isn't related to the Ofo 'bird' term, with 'back of the >neck' in Biloxi being a mere homonym. Dorsey and Swanton's lexical >materials are full of homonyms listed under single dictionary entries. > >Bob > > > > -- Pamela Munro Professor Department of Linguistics UCLA Box 951543 Los Angeles Ca 90095-1543 http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/linguistics/people/munro/munro.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon Nov 3 20:08:19 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 14:08:19 -0600 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] Message-ID: > As far as Hocank is concerned, the form ' maNaNs' refers to metal, mainly iron, and my informants have told me that the word for copper is 'maNaNs shuuc' or red metal. I'm not sure this helps the discussion, but I thought I'd share. It does help. And it might be worthwhile to point out that, generally speaking, when a word in a language gets a new meaning, the newer meaning often "takes over" the word completely, while the old meaning is conveyed by using the word with a modifier. Copper vs. iron would fit this very well. This principle doesn't always work, but it very often does. Thus, to take another example, Common Siouan $uNke 'dog, canid' in the older languages is often replaced by its newer meaning, 'horse', leaving 'dog' as $uNke + a modifier, as in Dhegiha *$oNke-oyudaN > $oNgiidaN, etc. Also, 'gun' has overtaken 'bow' in some languages, leaving 'bow' as the gun term plus a modifier. Bob From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Mon Nov 3 20:40:53 2003 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 14:40:53 -0600 Subject: Affrication Diminutive Marker (Re: butterfly) Message-ID: LOVE the joke! If this doesn't show productive use, I don't know what could. Catherine It's also true that Ponca makes use of affrication of dental stops for a diminuative effect, or "baby talk" (what John calls "grandmother speech"), as in "Dha?e'c^hewadhe!" 'You poor thing!' (said to a child) compared to "Dha?e'thewadhe!" (said to an adult), with the same meaning. This brings to mind a "xuube" joke that I was told: A woman sees a little nest of baby mice and says to the other people nearby, "J^u'ama j^NaN'baia!" ("Du'ama daNaN'baia!") 'Look at these!' To which her husband replies, "J^am!" 'Damn!' From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Nov 3 20:52:27 2003 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 14:52:27 -0600 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > I tend to think that the fairly widespread expression for "money," 'white > metal', cf., e.g., OP maNze ska, more or less maN(s)ska in regular speech, > was originally a calque of French argent, i.e., 'white metal' = 'silver'. > I don't know how widely spread 'white metal' formations are in North > America. It might be interesting to track down the distributions of forms > like this, 'fire water' (< eau ardent?), and so on. I believe they occur > in at least Siouan and Algonquian, and I think they are probably more or > less coextensive with such probable actual loans as kkokkomaN 'cucumber' > or kkukkusi 'pig' (OP forms), presumably from concombre and (certainly > from) couscous, or, for that matter s^aglas^a 'British' (Da) or ragras^iN > 'British' (IO), presumably from les Anglais/l'Anglais. Ojibway -- waab-aabik 'tin' (lit. 'white metal') biiw-aabik 'iron' miskw-aabik 'copper' (lit. 'red metal') biiw-aanag 'flint' z^ooniyaa 'silver' (< Sp. or Fr.?) is^kode-waaboo 'liquor' (lit. 'fire-water') z^aaganaas^ 'English' (prob. < Fr. [le]sanglais) -- Incidentally, are you all aware of Frank Siebert's (1967) suggestion that Proto-Algonquian *ooteeweni 'town, village' was borrowed from Siouan (cf. Da oti)? He also suggests that Da s^kec^a 'fisher (Martes pennanti) is from PA *wec^yeekwa and Da teteni^a, Catawba tinde 'blue jay' from PA *tiintiiwa (but onomatopoeia?) and notes several other suggestive similarities (Natl. Mus. Canada Bull. 214 pp. 48-59). Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Nov 3 21:53:38 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 14:53:38 -0700 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Henning Garvin wrote: > Sorry, but the archaeologist in me is about to come out. It is true that > copper artifacts occur quite frequently in pre-contact times. But if you > look at the Old Copper Complex, you see a wide range of utilitarian goods > being made from copper, so the distribution was not solely restricted to > personal adornment and items of a spiritual nature. There is actually a > number of weapon types that came from this period which have been > identified. I really only know this because my capstone class for > anthrolopogy focused on pre-historic warfare in the midwest region. Thanks, I appreciate the correction! I should have said that the only cases I could (vaguely) recall in conjunction with Oneota and other Mississippian sites were small "ornamental" items. I have the impression that Old Copper Complex is older, though I'm really fairly ignorant of it - you don't happen to recall the dates and approximate area, do you? From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Nov 3 21:57:31 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 14:57:31 -0700 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] In-Reply-To: <000a01c3a23a$a6be5440$3c09ed81@9afl3> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Kathleen Shea wrote: > MaN'ze (or perhaps long--maNaN'ze--since it does contrast with the word > maNze' 'breast' in OP) 'metal' is used in a lot of words for modern > inventions or machinery, like maNaNze waaN 'phonograph'; 'radio.' It's in > the word for 'sewing machine,' which I can't recall off the top of my head > right now and in several other words, probably some for farming implements. > I had never thought about the words maNze 'breast' and maNge 'chest' in OP > having a connection in a shared morpheme maN- 'pectoral,' but it certainly > makes sense. My recollection is that is that I was speculating that 'metal' was built up from 'chest/breast', i.e., was a derivative of it. However, I'm not sure if any of that works. I think I missed that Golla paper (and presumably the result of the meeting, too), though I can't recall why. From BARudes at aol.com Mon Nov 3 22:29:24 2003 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 17:29:24 EST Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] Message-ID: I would be somewhat cautious about Siebert's suggestions. For example, Catawba tinde 'bluejay', the form that Siebert recorded, is from earlier tine, the form recorded by Raven I. McDavid, and shows expected partial denasalization of /n/ before an oral vowel. Thus, Catawba tine (> tinde) is unlikely to come from PA *tiintiiwa. More likely, the Catawba and the PA form reflect initia ti(:)n- in imitation of the call of the bluejay, as Pam suggests. Blair From ahartley at d.umn.edu Tue Nov 4 00:38:12 2003 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:38:12 -0600 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Thanks, I appreciate the correction! I should have said that the only > cases I could (vaguely) recall in conjunction with Oneota and other > Mississippian sites were small "ornamental" items. I have the impression > that Old Copper Complex is older, though I'm really fairly ignorant of it > - you don't happen to recall the dates and approximate area, do you? Old Copper Culture is Archaic, a few thousand years BP: my memory fails me, which is embarrassing to a former ranger on Isle Royale, where a good deal of the "old copper" was mined (in native form), as it was also on the Keweenaw Peninsula of Michigan. Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Nov 4 00:46:41 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 17:46:41 -0700 Subject: Affrication Diminutive Marker (Re: butterfly) In-Reply-To: <001501c3a242$4b34d240$3c09ed81@9afl3> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Kathleen Shea wrote: > I've found that it's true that speakers of Ponca tend to use both the > dental-stop variant and the affricated variant of words interchangeably or > recognize only one as the "real" form. However, I have noticed that there's > some productive use of the distinction to create new vocabulary. I have > only one consultant right now, Uncle Parrish Williams--and I really need to > check with more speakers--but he firmly maintains that ttu means 'blue' and > c^c^u means 'green.' I think this usage appears in Howard's book. > The uncomfortable homophony that John mentions between wac^hi'gaag^e 'to > dance' and c^hi 'to have sex with' is often avoided in Ponca by > substitution with the more "polite" term naNthe 'to dance' (literally, > 'to kick'). I think that occurrence of gaaghe itself is an attempt at fixing this homophony. > It's also true that Ponca makes use of affrication of dental stops for a > diminuative effect, or "baby talk" (what John calls "grandmother speech"), > as in "Dha?e'c^hewadhe!" 'You poor thing!' (said to a child) compared to > "Dha?e'thewadhe!" (said to an adult), with the same meaning. This reminds me of the example haNegaNc^he 'dawn' = 'night' + 'like' + 'the (time), when', or 'when it's *a bit* like night'. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Nov 4 00:52:04 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 17:52:04 -0700 Subject: bird. In-Reply-To: <3FA6B5C5.1060900@ucla.edu> Message-ID: > I haven't been following all this as carefully as I should have, but > we're getting into larger territories to the South here. Chickasaw has > tIshkila 'bluejay' (the cap I is nasalized), with an "expressive" form > tIsh tIsh tIsh aachi (characteristically three CVC syllables plus 'say') > which my teacher tells me means 'to make a noise like a bluebird'. I should point out that tiNs^kila is an excellent match for Biloxi tiNskana - close enough to suggest borrowing by Biloxi. My understanding is that confusions in mapping between Native American and English systems are pretty standard for terms like 'bluejay' and 'bluebird'. From munro at ucla.edu Tue Nov 4 00:59:31 2003 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 16:59:31 -0800 Subject: bird. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I mistyped the gloss for the second word -- it should have been 'make a noise like a bluejay' (surely a more reasonable concept). Sorry! Pam Koontz John E wrote: >>I haven't been following all this as carefully as I should have, but >>we're getting into larger territories to the South here. Chickasaw has >>tIshkila 'bluejay' (the cap I is nasalized), with an "expressive" form >>tIsh tIsh tIsh aachi (characteristically three CVC syllables plus 'say') >>which my teacher tells me means 'to make a noise like a bluebird'. >> >> > >I should point out that tiNs^kila is an excellent match for Biloxi >tiNskana - close enough to suggest borrowing by Biloxi. > >My understanding is that confusions in mapping between Native American and >English systems are pretty standard for terms like 'bluejay' and >'bluebird'. > > > > -- Pamela Munro Professor Department of Linguistics UCLA Box 951543 Los Angeles Ca 90095-1543 http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/linguistics/people/munro/munro.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhgarvin at hotmail.com Tue Nov 4 01:26:44 2003 From: hhgarvin at hotmail.com (Henning Garvin) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 19:26:44 -0600 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] Message-ID: >Thanks, I appreciate the correction! I should have said that the only >cases I could (vaguely) recall in conjunction with Oneota and other >Mississippian sites were small "ornamental" items. I have the impression >that Old Copper Complex is older, though I'm really fairly ignorant of it >- you don't happen to recall the dates and approximate area, do you? >>From what I can remember (please don't let one of my former archaeology professors read this:) the old copper complex is dated from 6000-3000 BP, placing it in the archaic period in Midwestern prehistory. I should have also written, however, that the use of copper for utilitarian goods declined in the latter portion of the arcahic. It was used and apparently highly valued in the massive exchange networks that had been established at the end of the arcahic, but mainly in the form of jewelry. So you are absolutely right that the Oneota and Mississippian periods are rather sparse as far as copper goods go. The origin of Oneota was still a matter of debate when I was last up on the issue. Quite heated, if I remember correctly. _________________________________________________________________ >>From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite music is always playing on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE! http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Nov 4 01:32:04 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:32:04 -0700 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] In-Reply-To: <3FA6C00B.1080506@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Alan Hartley wrote: > > It might be interesting to track down the distributions of forms > > like this, 'fire water' (< eau ardent?), and so on. Thanks! > Ojibway > -- > waab-aabik 'tin' (lit. 'white metal') > biiw-aabik 'iron' > miskw-aabik 'copper' (lit. 'red metal') > biiw-aanag 'flint' > > z^ooniyaa 'silver' (< Sp. or Fr.?) > > is^kode-waaboo 'liquor' (lit. 'fire-water') OP ppe(e)de-niN 'fire' + 'water' > z^aaganaas^ 'English' (prob. < Fr. [le]sanglais) OP sagdhas^(iN?), sakkenas^(iN) (the transcription in the Long Expedition notes is a bit hard to decypher) and the term seems to be gone today. I believe Tony Grant looked at this set. > Incidentally, are you all aware of Frank Siebert's (1967) suggestion > that Proto-Algonquian *ooteeweni 'town, village' was borrowed from > Siouan (cf. Da oti)? I think a more likely comparison would be Da o-thuNwa-he 'town' (from memory, not sure I have this right), Da thuN(waN) 'tribe, people', OP ttaNwaN(gdhaN) 'town, clan' (gdhaN probably 'sit down; place round object against'). I think there's a possibility this term may pattern with the 'man's friend' set. I think the similar-looking Algonquian forms mean 'fellow clansman'. The semantic developments in each family tend to distort the relationships of the terms, but my guess is that the original idea was something like 'coresident kinship' and '(male) member of coresident kinship'. I'm not sure which direction the borrowings went and I've noticed similar forms in other families as well, so it might be wrong to assume that the source is either Siouan or Algonquian. However, these strike me as the kind of loan words that might go hand in hand with the sort of Cahokia Mississippian outlier settlements that occur in various Oneota and other contexts around the Midwest (Aztlan, etc.), but I'll freely admit that this is at best a wildly speculative explanation of terms that not everybody agrees are even loan words. > He also suggests that Da s^kec^a 'fisher (Martes pennanti) is from PA > *wec^yeekwa and Da teteni^a, Catawba tinde 'blue jay' from PA *tiintiiwa > (but onomatopoeia?) and notes several other suggestive similarities > (Natl. Mus. Canada Bull. 214 pp. 48-59). Yes, I've consulted that list. I think he mentions some other forms as well. Isn't there a term for 'larch' in there? And he also mentions 'soldier, policeman'. I'm not sure the 'fisher' comparison is particularly convincing. The 'jay' forms certainly look like the general range of onomatopoeic 'jay' forms (taking note of Blair's warning about tinde). From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Nov 4 01:33:15 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:33:15 -0700 Subject: bird. In-Reply-To: <3FA6F9F3.6090005@ucla.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: > I mistyped the gloss for the second word -- it should have been 'make a > noise like a bluejay' (surely a more reasonable concept). Sorry! OK, but 'bluebird' and 'bluejay' do get confused in various translational contexts. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Nov 4 01:42:51 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:42:51 -0700 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Henning Garvin wrote: > The origin of Oneota was still a matter of debate when I was last up on > the issue. Quite heated, if I remember correctly. As far as I know, Oneota is pretty controversial all around - how it originated, how it might or might not map to historical groups (especially everyone but the Ioway), and occasionally what manifestations are actually Oneota. The last time I was trying seriously to keep track they had (apparently) just decided that they had been far too slack in classifying materials and sites into phases and had started over again - this time apparently without occasionally publishing an overall survey of the system ... It was a lot like trying to find out about Proto-Siouan. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Nov 4 02:07:01 2003 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 20:07:01 -0600 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] Message-ID: John wrote: > Precontact artifacts made from copper occur > with some frequency in the Midwest. As far > as I know they are all ornamental an/or religious, > i.e., not pots or weapons. Anyway, copper is > the most likely original reference of the "metal" > term set. Meteoritic iron is another possibility, > as Bob suggests, and silver and gold were certainly > worked in Mesoamerica, and if any small samples > found their way into the Midwest they may or may not > have been considered as "metal." Plainly various > metals acquired later in trade were plainly > considered so and today the "metal term" is usually > considered to mean "iron." I'd agree with John and Bob that copper is most likely the original reference. That metal was mined, worked and traded pretty extensively throughout the Midwest since late Archaic times-- since about 1000 B.C., if I recall correctly. The most notable source for it was Upper Michigan's Keewenaw Peninsula, which is famous for its outcrops of pure copper. There certainly must have been a name for it, and the maNaNzE term is the only MVS word I know that could possibly be that name. Of course, if that was the only commonly known metal prior to European contact, it is moot whether the term meant "copper" or "metal". I've been doing a project on OP acculturation terms based largely on the Dorsey dictionary. Interestingly, the specific term for every metal except pewter is derived by qualifying it with a color term: silver maNaNzE-ska 'white metal' gold maNaNzEska-zi 'yellow silver' copper maNaNzE-z^ide 'red metal' lead maNaNzE-tu 'blue metal' brass maNaNzE-zi 'yellow metal' iron maNaNzE-sabe 'black metal' pewter maNaNzE-na'skoNdhe 'melting metal' I would guess that the first six categories of metal were distinguished and named in the 18th to early 19th centuries, when the Omahas and Ponkas were in trading contact with whites. (Gold was apparently recognized and defined after and secondarily to silver.) These names tell how to recognize the different metals by sight, which makes sense if you are accepting them passively as elemental substances whose origin and function you don't really understand. Also, they are grammatically simple, and could easily reflect a foreign trader with a limited OP vocabulary attempting to describe his wares to the locals. These words are good Omaha, but syntactically they are also good French. The word for 'pewter', on the other hand, likely was coined in the later 19th century, when the Omahas (?) were settling down on their reservation and attempting to learn the ways of the whites. This word more critically describes something about the origin or function of the metal, and the descriptor used is arcane enough and complex enough to make us almost sure that this term was coined by a native speaker. Rory From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Nov 4 03:29:38 2003 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 21:29:38 -0600 Subject: Affrication Diminutive Marker (Re: butterfly) Message-ID: John wrote: > This reminds me of the example haNegaNc^he > 'dawn' = 'night' + 'like' + 'the (time), when', > or 'when it's *a bit* like night'. I think I'd interpret it using the other version of egaN. (I think we were arguing about these a couple of years ago, along with our infamous =bi/=i disputation.) In Dorsey, e'gaN usually seems to mean 'like that', or 'like (the foregoing)'. But egaN' usually means 'the foregoing having occurred', usually as a conjunction, and often with the sense of 'since', 'because'. Anyway, I've always understood the haNegaN part of that as haN egaN', "night having occurred (and hence being over)", or "night-is-over" = 'dawn'. I've never really understood the c^he part of it though. I gather that it is the positional thE, used to indicate a point in time, transposed into grandmother speech? Rory From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Nov 4 05:51:22 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 21:51:22 -0800 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] Message-ID: > Incidentally, are you all aware of Frank Siebert's (1967) suggestion that > Proto-Algonquian *ooteeweni 'town, village' was borrowed from Siouan (cf. Da > oti)? This strikes me as rather implausible. The root is Proto-Algonquian */o:te:-/ (*o:te:weni is just a nominalization off that), & it seems to have meant 'dwell together as a group'. It's very well integrated into the Algonquian lexicon in that it appears in several different reconstructible collocations, plus it's found throughout the family. So if it was a loan, it really was all the way back at the PA level. If the Siouan cognate is only present in one or two branches of Siouan, this would strongly suggest to me that the borrowing had to have been Algonquian -> Siouan, which is actually the usual direction. > He also suggests that Da s^kec^a 'fisher (Martes pennanti) is from PA > *wec^yeekwa I agree with John that this one isn't real compelling. (Incidentally, the correct PA reconstruction for 'fisher' is */wec^yeeka/.) > and Da teteni^a, Catawba tinde 'blue jay' from PA *tiintiiwa (but > onomatopoeia?) and notes several other suggestive similarities (Natl. Mus. > Canada Bull. 214 pp. 48-59). I think it's extremely risky to use onomatopoeic words as evidence of *anything* in comparative exercises like this, even if all one is trying to do is to track borrowing. best, Dave From rankin at ku.edu Tue Nov 4 15:12:17 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 09:12:17 -0600 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] Message-ID: Blair's right -- the [tin] root/syllable (or whatever it is) is very widespread and, as John says, clearly onomatopoeic in origin. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 4:29 PM Subject: Re: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] > I would be somewhat cautious about Siebert's suggestions. For example, > Catawba tinde 'bluejay', the form that Siebert recorded, is from earlier tine, the > form recorded by Raven I. McDavid, and shows expected partial denasalization of > /n/ before an oral vowel. Thus, Catawba tine (> tinde) is unlikely to come > from PA *tiintiiwa. More likely, the Catawba and the PA form reflect initia > ti(:)n- in imitation of the call of the bluejay, as Pam suggests. > > Blair From Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc Tue Nov 4 16:23:23 2003 From: Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc (Louis Garcia) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:23:23 -0600 Subject: Le Sanglais In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Gang: I thought I would interject my two cents here. The Dakota here at Ft. Totten use the term sahda, sometimes sahdas'a for the Metis. The Nakota (I know there are problems using this term) here say sagkda. Years ago when most of the old timers who had gone to school with the Metis were still alive, they hated the metis guts because they were punished more than the Metis. They really drew out the pronunciation in contempt. Thankfully this animosity has changed, and everyone jokes with each other. Years ago I asked James H. Howard about these terms and he said the term was from Gaelic, learned from the British soldiers during the French and Indian wars through the War of 1812. Was he correct? Later, LouieG From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Nov 4 16:45:52 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 09:45:52 -0700 Subject: Affrication Diminutive Marker (Re: butterfly) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Rory M Larson wrote: > I've never really understood the c^he part of it though. I gather that > it is the positional thE, used to indicate a point in time, transposed > into grandmother speech? That's my analysis of it, anyway - the inanimate upright positional article-cum-temporal conjunction. It's that which induces me to see egaN here as 'to be like'. From lcumberl at indiana.edu Tue Nov 4 16:56:04 2003 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 11:56:04 -0500 Subject: Le Sanglais Message-ID: I have often wondered if these terms didn't derive from some variant of sassenax or saghenax (I'm not sure of the exact form), which was a Scottish derogatory term for the British. Linda Quoting Louis Garcia : > > > Hi Gang: > I thought I would interject my two cents here. > The Dakota here at Ft. Totten use the term sahda, sometimes sahdas'a for the > Metis. > The Nakota (I know there are problems using this term) here say sagkda. > Years ago when most of the old timers who had gone to school with the Metis > were still alive, they hated the metis guts because they were punished more > than the Metis. They really drew out the pronunciation in contempt. > Thankfully this animosity has changed, and everyone jokes with each other. > Years ago I asked James H. Howard about these terms and he said the term was > from Gaelic, learned from the British soldiers during the French and Indian > wars through the War of 1812. > Was he correct? > Later, > LouieG > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Nov 4 17:15:50 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:15:50 -0700 Subject: Le Sanglais In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Louis Garcia wrote: > The Dakota here at Ft. Totten use the term sahda, sometimes sahdas'a for > the Metis. The Nakota (I know there are problems using this term) here > say sagkda. I think these follow the usual pattern for PreDa *kR (PS *kr) clusters. > Years ago I asked James H. Howard about these terms and he said the term was > from Gaelic, learned from the British soldiers during the French and Indian > wars through the War of 1812. It sounds as if he must have supposed the term to be related to "sassenach," (sp?) which doesn't seem to be in my Webster's desk dictionary. I think it is a Gaelic plural (maybe a pejorative?) of "Saxon," i.e., Englishman, popularized in English in Scottish historical fiction. The usual view today is that it is ultimately from French les anglais. The le- of les is lost, but the s from it, attached to anglais by liaison, is retained, yielding 's anglais, or sangle, as it were. Of course, the attested forms look like it was actually sangla, and I don't know if this change occurs in Algonquian or not. I think so, because my undestanding is that during the period that anglais was written anglois the oi wasn't pronounced wa, i.e., it was sangle, not *sanglwa. The final -s is silent in French, of course. The -s^a at the end is actually the Algonquian diminutive-pejorative suffix, and is consistent with the attestation of similar forms - with this suffix - in various Algonquian languages. Thus the form is something like 'the contemptible little sangle (or sangla)." It's the same final fricative that produces the s in Sioux < Nadouessioux, "the contemptible little snakes" or, if you disagree with Siebert's assessment and agree with Ives Goddard's original one "the contemptible little non-speakers (of Algonquian)." The Siouan languages borrowed the term from various Algonquian languages or Algonquian-influenced pidgins, and not from French directly. IO ragras^ "raggerash" (attested as a personal name) seems to be from the singular l'anglais, but also via an Algonquian source, as indicated by the final -s^. > Was he correct? If I understand what he meant, no, not at all. From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Tue Nov 4 17:07:35 2003 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:07:35 +0000 Subject: Le Sanglais Message-ID: No they didn't. They derive from French 'les anglais', whch was modified with the addtion of the Ojibwa pejorative -sha (according to Ives Goddard). The term occurs in a number of Algonquian and Siouan languages, and indeed I gave a paper on this very topic, entitled 'French, British and Indian', (in my pre-Microsoft days) at a SSILA meeting at Alberquerque in summer 1995. Anthony Grant >>> lcumberl at indiana.edu 04/11/2003 16:56:04 >>> I have often wondered if these terms didn't derive from some variant of sassenax or saghenax (I'm not sure of the exact form), which was a Scottish derogatory term for the British. Linda Quoting Louis Garcia : > > > Hi Gang: > I thought I would interject my two cents here. > The Dakota here at Ft. Totten use the term sahda, sometimes sahdas'a for the > Metis. > The Nakota (I know there are problems using this term) here say sagkda. > Years ago when most of the old timers who had gone to school with the Metis > were still alive, they hated the metis guts because they were punished more > than the Metis. They really drew out the pronunciation in contempt. > Thankfully this animosity has changed, and everyone jokes with each other. > Years ago I asked James H. Howard about these terms and he said the term was > from Gaelic, learned from the British soldiers during the French and Indian > wars through the War of 1812. > Was he correct? > Later, > LouieG > > > From ahartley at d.umn.edu Tue Nov 4 18:18:09 2003 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 12:18:09 -0600 Subject: Le Sanglais In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > The usual view today is that it is ultimately from French les anglais. > The le- of les is lost, but the s from it, attached to anglais by liaison, > is retained, yielding 's anglais, or sangle, as it were. As with (Fr.) les Otoes >> les Sotoes >> (Eng.) Zotoes (and Eng. a napron >> an apron). From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Nov 4 20:37:48 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 13:37:48 -0700 Subject: Le Sanglais In-Reply-To: <3FA7ED61.3050506@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Alan Hartley wrote: > As with (Fr.) les Otoes >> les Sotoes >> (Eng.) Zotoes > (and Eng. a napron >> an apron). My favorite (French) example is unicorne (taken as un icorne) > icorne > licorne (from l'icorne). This sort of thing happens in Siouan languages, too. If I recall correctly, PS *waNs- (cf. OP maNaNze) > PreDa maze > Da aze (maze taken as first person possessive). I don't recall any reverse examples, with accretion, however, or any cases of resegmentation of a morpheme. From rankin at ku.edu Tue Nov 4 21:12:00 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 15:12:00 -0600 Subject: Le Sanglais Message-ID: > > Years ago I asked James H. Howard about these terms and he said the term was from Gaelic, learned from the British soldiers during the French and Indian wars through the War of 1812. > It sounds as if he must have supposed the term to be related to > "sassenach," (sp?) which doesn't seem to be in my Webster's desk > dictionary. I think it is a Gaelic plural (maybe a pejorative?) of > "Saxon," i.e., Englishman, popularized in English in Scottish historical > fiction. My Random House has Scots Galic Sassunach and Irish Gaelic Sassanach with the meaning John gives above. > The usual view today is that it is ultimately from French les anglais. > The le- of les is lost, but the s from it, attached to anglais by liaison, > is retained, yielding 's anglais, or sangle, as it were. Of course, the > attested forms look like it was actually sangla, and I don't know if this > change occurs in Algonquian or not. I think so, because my undestanding > is that during the period that anglais was written anglois the oi wasn't > pronounced wa, i.e., it was sangle, not *sanglwa. Probably [e:] or [we] by then, but written . But watch out! I ran across a "SASNAK" bar and grill in north Topeka, KS and was sure I'd happened onto a local attestation of "les anglais" in some slightly different phonetic incarnation. I was about to go in and inquire of the manager how they had come upon the name when I suddenly realized what it was when spelled backwards. Sure burst my etymological bubble that day. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Nov 9 09:18:18 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 02:18:18 -0700 Subject: Affricates in Omaha-Ponca (long) Message-ID: Affricated Words in Omaha-Ponca in the Dorsey Texts JE Koontz Essentially, affrication has diminutive force, but this diminution may work to indicate small size, or to mitigate the sense of something possibly offensive, or perhaps to forfend a reference to something dangerous, or to indicate cute behavior, or to speak to children, or as a child, and so on. Affricates also occur in foreign names (and maybe other borrowings), in onomatopoeic forms, and exclamations. Vocabulary + a'gaz^ade ~ a'gaz^aj^e 'take a step, step over' Occurs once affricated, in reference to stepping over a snake. Perhaps placative? + bac^ha'ge 'blunt' Only in a name, He'bac^hage 'Blunt Horns'. + bic^[h]i'c^[h]ide 'to press on and break' Cf. perhaps naNt[h]i'de 'to make a drumming sound in running'. + c^hakki 'slouchy' (per Swetland) Somewhere - maybe from Mark Swetland - I have gotten the impression that 'disheveled' might work also as a gloss. Occurs in a name MaNdhiN'=c^[h]akki, presumably 'Goes along in a disreputable condition'. One of three words in initial ch in Swetland, the other two being c^ha'za (see below) and c^[h]e'dhukki 'Cherokee', probably an English loan. + c^[h]a'za 'slouchy' (per Swetland) Occurs in a name, C^[h]a'zadhiNge, apparently 'Lacking slouchiness'. Might be a Dakotan loan, since c^ha'za has unaccented final a after z, which is more typical of Dakotan forms. OP would tend to have e there. However, the form is attested for OP in Swetland and the comparable form c^[h]akki is also somewhat non-canonical. I don't know of any comparable forms in Dakotan. + c^c^es^ka 'small' Always affricated. Occurs in both c^c^e's^ka=xti and c^c^e's^ka=xc^i 'very small'. + c^hi 'to have sex with; to fuck' (of humans or humanized creatures) Always affricated, perhaps originally to mitigate its force. Cf. Dakotan hu, both from PSi *thu. + c^[h]u 'spit' Two examples, one reduplicated, but affricated. Onomatopoeic? + dhi?a'j^e 'to open (fan) out the tail' (of a bird) Nonce form. + du'ba ~ j^u'ba 'some, a few'; j^u'ba=xc^i 'very little' Both forms fairly common. Dorsey writes j^ as dj, but sometimes a form du'ba occurs. Might be j^u'ba or duu'ba with glottalization to emphasize length? + haN'egaNc^he 'morning' (modern Omaha hN'gac^hi) Probably haN'=egaN=c^he affricated from haN'=egaN=the 'when it is [a bit] like night'. Always affricated. + iNc^haN'ga 'mouse' Always affricated. + iNc^haNgaska 'weasel' < 'mouse' + 'white' Always affricated. I believe I have also encountered iNc^haN'ska somewhere. + iNde' ~ iN'j^e 'face' The affricated form occurs once in the name of a raccoon in a story: IN'j^e xdhe'ghe 'Spotted Face'. I'd have guessed 'striped' or 'barred' more apt than 'spotted'! + i(N)s^ta' ~ is^c^a' 'eye' Once in is^c^asi 'eyeball' < 'eye' + 'seed', in a fixed (offensive) epithet 'big eyeballs' directed at the Rabbit. + iN'thaN ~ iN'c^haN 'now' (especially iN'c^haN=xc^i) Affricated form much more common. + kki'xaxaj^aN 'wren' Always affricated, but occurs in one story only. Possibly onomatopoeic. + maNc^hu' 'grizzly bear' Always affricated. Perhaps a placative form. Cf. Dakotan matho'. + mas^tiN'ge ~ mas^c^iN'ge 'rabbit; Rabbit' The affricated variant is more common in the texts. Dorsey does not use the word 'hare', so we can't tell if 'hare' vs. 'rabbit' is meant. However, most references refer to the Rabbit or a rabbit character (not necessarily the usual folk hero Rabbit) in a story. + naNz^a'z^aj^e 'kicking his legs out' Nonce form. Reduplicated. Cf. a'gaz^ade. + na'=zizij^e 'to sizzle on the fire' Nonce form. + nudaN'haNga ~ nuj^aN'haNga 'war chief, war party leader' Initially accented in vocative. Affricated form not common, but occurs sporadically. + si'j^u=axc^i 'alone, only' Nonce form. + ttac^[h]u'ge 'antelope' Nonce form, confirmed in Fletcher & LaFlesche. + Tta'xti Gi'kkida=bi ~ Tta'=xti Gi'kkij^a=bi 'They Kill His Deer for Him' Name of a monster. Occurs once affricated. + t?e ~ c^?e 'to die'; t?e=dhe ~ c^?e=dhe 'to kill' Sporadically with c^?. Perhaps a mitagatory form. + uc^[h]iz^e 'thicket' Also once, a verbal form wi'uc^[h]iz^e 'they are troublesome to us', which is the wa- 'us' form of udhu'c^[h]iz^e (udhu- cf. Dakotan iyo-). Always affricated. Perhaps a placative form. Os ochiz^e 'a row, an uproar, a riot', Ks oc^hiz^e 'confusion, as many talking at once'. Cf. perhaps Dakotan iyotiyekhiya 'to have troubles' (but that isn't aspirated). + (maN'ze) ukkia'c^[h]ac^[h]a 'iron chain' = 'iron' + the next form + u[']kkia'c^[h]ac^[h]a=xti 'tied in many places' Two nonce forms. Dorsey indicates accent on the third vowel. + wac^higaghe 'to dance' (wadhachigaghe 'you dance') Gaghe perhaps added historically to avoid homophony with c^hi. Cf. Dakotan wac^hi. + waj^e'ppa 'herald' Occurs as a name, reported in Fletcher & LaFlesche, I think, to mean 'herald', i.e., camp crier. + wathi's^ka ~ wac^his^ka 'creek' The affricated form is the more common variant in the texts. + waxta' ~ waxc^a' 'fruit, vegetable' Occurs just once affricated in the phrase waxc^a' z^iN'ga 'small vegetable'. Also used for 'flower', but doesn't occur in Dorsey in that sense. + we'wac^hi 'scalp dance' Nonce derivative of wac^hi in wa-i-, see wac^higaghe. Grammatical Elements + c^[h]abe 'very' This is an adverbial auxiliary that inserts between the verb and the plural/proximate marker, e.g., thaN' c^ha'ba=i 'they were numerous', ppi'=b=az^i c^ha'ba=i 'they are very bad', aNwaN'xpani c^ha'be 'I am very poor'. + =di ~ =j^i 'in, at' Occurs once as =j^i in idha'naxida=j^i 'at a sheltered place' (vs. idha'naxide=adi, also attested). + =s^te ~ =xc^e 'soever' Nonce form a'=naska=xc^e=xc^i 'of some size or another'. A'=naska is 'what/some size'. + =thaN ~ =c^haN EXTENT Nonce form ga'=c^haN=ma 'the ones that high' + =the ~ =c^he 'the (inanimate upright), the(time), when' See haN'egaNc^he. Also in ga'=c^he=gaN 'thus', etc. + =tte ~ =c^c^e IRREALIS Sporadically affricated, e.g., e'be xtaN'=dhe=c^c^e 'who will love me?' (Rabbit being cute), wic^hi=c^c^e 'I will have sex with you'. + =xti ~ =xc^i 'very, true' The =xc^i variant is fairly common, but tends to occur with certain forms, e.g., this non-exahustive list: dha'dhuha=xc^i 'almost' j^u'ba=xc^i 'a very little' kkaN'ge=xc^i 'very near' ppahaN'ga=xc^i 'the very first' ppa'ze=xc^i 'very late in the evening' ppez^i'=xc^i 'very bad' ppi'=az^i=xc^i 'very bad' naN'z^iNs^ke=xc^i 'scarcely' ni=a'z^i=xc^i 'not at all in pain' uma'kka=xc^i 'very easy (in mind, behavior), i.e., placid, sanguine' uxdhe'=xc^i 'very soon' wiN'a=xc^i '(just) one' z^iN'ga=xc^i 'very small' Also, PRO=xc^i 'only PRO', e.g., wi'=xc^i 'I only'. Also not affricated. Also, PRO=(s^)na=xc^i 'only PRO', e.g., wi'=naN=xc^i 'only me' or e'=na=xc^i (or e=na'=xc^i) 'only one, alone, him only'. Sometimes not affricated. Also, COLOR=xc^i 'very COLOR' (maybe 'rather COLOR'?), e.g., ska'=xc^i 'very white', ttu'=xc^i 'very green'. Unaffricated examples of these occur. Also in two kinterm truncated diminutives, saN'=z^iN=xc^i 'dear little brother' < isaN'ga '(his/her) younger brother' + z^iN'ga 'little' + xc^i, and si'=z^iN=xc^i 'dear little child' < ini'si 'offspring' + ... and untruncated (i)ttu's^pa=z^iN=xc^i '(one's) dear little grandchild' < ittu's^pa 'one's grandchild' + ... Example of "Grandmother" or "Baby" Speech E=a'c^haN= xc^i c^?e'=wadhadhe=c^c^e=iN=the How on earth very will you kill them perhaps JOD 90:28.18 (Grandmother to Rabbit) This would more normally be pronounced: E=a'thaN=xti t?e'=wadhadhe=tte=iN=the There may be lexical differences as well, since 'How on earth" is usually rendered as a'=xt(i)=aN. Dorsey glosses this 'how possibly'. 'How on earth' is my rendition of that. Foreign Names + C^[h]eghappa = C^hegha=(pabu ?) 'Beats the Drum' (Dakota) + J^o 'Joe (Joseph LaFlesche)' English (originally French) + MaNac^[h]eba = Mawac^hepa (said to be Yankton) + Mic^[h]axpe Z^iNga = Mic^haxpi (C^histina?) 'Little Star' (Da) + MuNj^e XaN'j^e 'Big Bear' (IO) Onomatopoeia + See c^hu 'to spit' above. + See kki'xaxaj^aN 'wren' above. + c^hu 'sound of hot iron inserted in wound' + c^?u 'sound of bullet' + c^hu 'noise of ratling' + c^hi c^hi c^hi 'call of chipmunk' Exclamations + hiNc^[h]e 'surprising' Perhaps a variant of the common hiNda(khe) 'let's see'. + i'c^[h]ic^[h]i 'ouch, it's hot' + idhiac^? idhiac^?e 'exclamation of wonder' John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Mon Nov 10 11:50:30 2003 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:50:30 -0000 Subject: Le Sanglais In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oddly enough I've heard the word recently used by a Lakota speaker in Standing Rock to refer to Ojibway (and Cree I think) people on her own reservation. Possibly the association is with Canadians and hence British On 4 Nov 2003 at 17:07, Anthony Grant wrote: Date sent: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 17:07:35 +0000 Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: "Anthony Grant" To: Subject: RE: Le Sanglais > No they didn't. They derive from French 'les anglais', whch was > modified with the addtion of the Ojibwa pejorative -sha (according to > Ives Goddard). The term occurs in a number of Algonquian and Siouan > languages, and indeed I gave a paper on this very topic, entitled > 'French, British and Indian', (in my pre-Microsoft days) at a SSILA > meeting at Alberquerque in summer 1995. > > Anthony Grant > > >>> lcumberl at indiana.edu 04/11/2003 16:56:04 >>> > I have often wondered if these terms didn't derive from some variant of > sassenax > or saghenax (I'm not sure of the exact form), which was a Scottish > derogatory > term for the British. > > Linda > > Quoting Louis Garcia : > > > > > > > Hi Gang: > > I thought I would interject my two cents here. > > The Dakota here at Ft. Totten use the term sahda, sometimes sahdas'a > for the > > Metis. > > The Nakota (I know there are problems using this term) here say > sagkda. > > Years ago when most of the old timers who had gone to school with the > Metis > > were still alive, they hated the metis guts because they were > punished more > > than the Metis. They really drew out the pronunciation in contempt. > > Thankfully this animosity has changed, and everyone jokes with each > other. > > Years ago I asked James H. Howard about these terms and he said the > term was > > from Gaelic, learned from the British soldiers during the French and > Indian > > wars through the War of 1812. > > Was he correct? > > Later, > > LouieG > > > > > > > From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Mon Nov 10 11:57:04 2003 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:57:04 -0000 Subject: Le Sanglais In-Reply-To: <3FA7ED61.3050506@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Also orange from Persian Narenj and Adder from nadder, by which name, meaning I believe twisting, there is still a river in England Bruce On 4 Nov 2003 at 12:18, Alan Hartley wrote: Date sent: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 12:18:09 -0600 Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: Alan Hartley To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Le Sanglais > Koontz John E wrote: > > > The usual view today is that it is ultimately from French les anglais. > > The le- of les is lost, but the s from it, attached to anglais by liaison, > > is retained, yielding 's anglais, or sangle, as it were. > > As with (Fr.) les Otoes >> les Sotoes >> (Eng.) Zotoes > (and Eng. a napron >> an apron). > > From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Mon Nov 10 12:53:22 2003 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 12:53:22 +0000 Subject: Le Sanglais Message-ID: I believe German still has Natter for 'viper'. Anthony >>> bi1 at soas.ac.uk 10/11/2003 11:57:04 >>> Also orange from Persian Narenj and Adder from nadder, by which name, meaning I believe twisting, there is still a river in England Bruce On 4 Nov 2003 at 12:18, Alan Hartley wrote: Date sent: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 12:18:09 -0600 Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: Alan Hartley To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Le Sanglais > Koontz John E wrote: > > > The usual view today is that it is ultimately from French les anglais. > > The le- of les is lost, but the s from it, attached to anglais by liaison, > > is retained, yielding 's anglais, or sangle, as it were. > > As with (Fr.) les Otoes >> les Sotoes >> (Eng.) Zotoes > (and Eng. a napron >> an apron). > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Nov 10 17:11:21 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:11:21 -0700 Subject: Le Sanglais In-Reply-To: <3FAF7B86.28312.A4545@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 bi1 at soas.ac.uk wrote: > Oddly enough I've heard the word recently used by a Lakota speaker in > Standing Rock to refer to Ojibway (and Cree I think) people on her own > reservation. Possibly the association is with Canadians and hence > British. I think I've seen the term defined as 'Canadian' somewhere. Maybe Buechel? The British > Canadian progression is a natural one, of course. From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Nov 13 14:22:47 2003 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:22:47 -0000 Subject: Affrication Diminutive Marker (Re: butterfly) In-Reply-To: <001501c3a242$4b34d240$3c09ed81@9afl3> Message-ID: Cree does something similar I believe turning -t- into -c- for diminutive uses, though I can't think of an example not having my Cree books here. Bruce On 3 Nov 2003 at 13:40, Kathleen Shea wrote: Date sent: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 13:40:09 -0600 Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: "Kathleen Shea" To: Subject: Re: Affrication Diminutive Marker (Re: butterfly) > I've found that it's true that speakers of Ponca tend to use both the > dental-stop variant and the affricated variant of words interchangeably or > recognize only one as the "real" form. > From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Thu Nov 13 15:29:13 2003 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (Heike =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=F6deker?=) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:29:13 +0100 Subject: Affrication Diminutive Marker (Re: butterfly) In-Reply-To: <3FB393B7.7478.156AB05@localhost> Message-ID: At 14:22 13.11.03 +0000, bi1 at soas.ac.uk wrote: >Cree does something similar I believe turning -t- into -c- for diminutive >uses, though I can't think of an example not having my Cree books >here. atim "dog" -> acim "doggie", though this is only a relic of a more productive grade system (which is probably what should be phenomenologically compared to the Siouan system) as outlined by Proulx in one of his first articles in IJAL (1984 IIRC) on Comparative Algic. Best, Heike From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Nov 13 16:37:37 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 09:37:37 -0700 Subject: Affrication Diminutive Marker (Re: butterfly) In-Reply-To: <3FB393B7.7478.156AB05@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 bi1 at soas.ac.uk wrote: > Cree does something similar I believe turning -t- into -c- for > diminutive uses, though I can't think of an example not having my Cree > books here. I think this is a fairly common pattern for diminutives, world wide, and, perhaps connected, for female as opposed to male speech. The vague reflection of the last in OP is the frequency of this as a marker of the speech of "little old ladies" (or perhaps better, as a marker of baby talk), the classic examples being Grandmother speaking to Rabbit. JEK From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Fri Nov 14 14:16:49 2003 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:16:49 -0000 Subject: Le Sanglais In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not a nother one. Reminds me of the poem 'Better to marry a short girl, than never to marry a tall' Bruce On 10 Nov 2003 at 12:53, Anthony Grant wrote: Date sent: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 12:53:22 +0000 Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: "Anthony Grant" To: Subject: Re: Le Sanglais > I believe German still has Natter for 'viper'. > > Anthony > > >>> bi1 at soas.ac.uk 10/11/2003 11:57:04 >>> > Also orange from Persian Narenj and Adder from nadder, by which > name, meaning I believe twisting, there is still a river in England > Bruce > On 4 Nov 2003 at 12:18, Alan Hartley wrote: > > Date sent: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 12:18:09 -0600 > Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > From: Alan Hartley > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Le Sanglais > > > Koontz John E wrote: > > > > > The usual view today is that it is ultimately from French les > anglais. > > > The le- of les is lost, but the s from it, attached to anglais by > liaison, > > > is retained, yielding 's anglais, or sangle, as it were. > > > > As with (Fr.) les Otoes >> les Sotoes >> (Eng.) Zotoes > > (and Eng. a napron >> an apron). > > > > > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Nov 16 18:18:57 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 11:18:57 -0700 Subject: Borrowed Names in Omaha-Ponca Message-ID: It occured to me that the non-Dhegihanists on the list might have given up in horror before they got to the last few lines of this post! These instances of affricates are all names, mostly Dakotan, that have been partially adapted to Omaha-Ponca. Note that these names are borrowed in the sense of occurring in OP text. They are not actually being used as OP names, though presumably such a degree of borrowing also occurs. The case of J^o 'Joe, Joseph' is a bit special. Certain French names do circulate among the Omaha, at least, but these are not the bearer's Omaha names, but versions of their English (originally French) names, e.g., Me'(e)dhi 'Mary, Marie', Dhuza'dhi 'Rosalie', Zuze't(e?) 'Susette', J^o' 'Joe', "Frank" (details of pronunciation unknown) 'Frank, Francis, Francois', Sasu' (regularly used for Frank, maybe from Francois, though it superficially resembles Sanssouci rather better). The first of these I've heard myself. The second is attested in Fletcher & LaFlesche. The rest are from Dorsey's texts. Possibly also in this group would be Bac^c^i' 'Peter Sarpy', if that was a rendition of something like Liberte', which is gross speculation. This last might also be an Omaha-Ponca or Ioway-Otoe word, though I haven't been able to identify it. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 02:18:18 -0700 (MST) From: Koontz John E ... > Foreign Names > + C^[h]eghappa = C^hegha=(pabu ?) 'Beats the Drum' (Dakota) > + J^o 'Joe (Joseph LaFlesche)' English (originally French) > + MaNac^[h]eba = Mawac^hepa (said to be Yankton) > + Mic^[h]axpe Z^iNga = Mic^haxpi (C^histina?) 'Little Star' (Da) > + MuNj^e XaN'j^e 'Big Bear' (IO) ... Addendum: C^he'gha is cognate to OP ne'(e)ghe 'pot'; I have no idea what the -ppa element represents, though the name is glossed 'beats the drum'. The usual modern OP word for drum is kku'(u)ge 'box, drum', though this word appears only in the sense of 'box' in Dorsey's texts, which have for 'drum', variously, dhe'(e)ghe gakku', ne'(e)ghe xakku' (misprint for next? - x written with q in Dorsey), ne'(e)ghe gakku', and ne'(e)ghigakku'. Dhe'(e)ghe is a doublet of ne'(e)ghe. Both are glossed 'kettle' in the Dorsey texts, though ne'(e)ghe appears also in the character name Tte-ne'ghe 'Buffalo Bladder', and Swetland glosses ne'(e)ghe as 'water vessel; bladder; bucket; pail; pot'. He doesn't list dhe'(e)ghe. It's possible that the change in 'drum' words reflects a change in 'drum' technology. I seem to recall hearing that the large drum favored today is a comparatively recent thing. I've discussed the 'pot' word before and suggested that the initial correspondence Da c^h : OP n (~ dh) reflects Proto-Mississippi Valley *py > Da pc^ ~ c^h : OP bdh (verb) ~ n (noun) ~ dh. I notice that MaNac^heba has intervocalic w elided. This happens in OP words like ttaNwaNgdhaN and I htink in Dakotan as well, in faster speech. I don't know what the name might be. The OP word for 'star' is miNkka'?e from Proto-Dhegiha *miNkka'x?e. That suggests PSi *wiNhka'x?e, whereas Dakota mic^ha'xpi suggests PSi *wiNhka'xpi. It is possible that -pi here is a reflex of the plural *=pi. Another set with =pi like this that's been mentioned on the list is 'cloud'. As far as the PDh form, simply adding -e to *wiNhka'x, the residuum of the stem, shouldn't produce *x?e, so the morphology here is obscure to me. The form of *wiNhka'x is atypical for a Siouan stem, if not compound, derived, or borrowed, though it would be going to far to say it was impossible. Since the word for 'little' is translated into OP, this name is along the lines of something like 'Little Et-wal' as an English rendition of French Petite Etoile. That is, it's partially, but not wholely, translated, with the untranslated part somewhat adapted in phonology. The IO name is not translated, but taken over intact. It would come out something like Wasabe TtaNga in OP. Neither element in IO is cognate with anything common in Omaha-Ponca or Dakota, though obscure reflexes of both elements exist Clearly the process of rendering "foreign" names into OP was a somewhat complex one, with a rich range of possibilities. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Nov 17 16:33:53 2003 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 10:33:53 -0600 Subject: Borrowed Names in Omaha-Ponca Message-ID: > Dhe'(e)ghe is a doublet of ne'(e)ghe. Both are glossed 'kettle' in the > Dorsey texts, though ne'(e)ghe appears also in the character name > Tte-ne'ghe 'Buffalo Bladder', and Swetland glosses ne'(e)ghe as 'water > vessel; bladder; bucket; pail; pot'. He doesn't list dhe'(e)ghe. The Dorsey dictionary distinguishes these forms as dialectal within OP: dhe'(e)ghe is Ponka, and ne'(e)ghe is Omaha. Our Omaha speakers use nE'ghe. (I'm not sure about length, but they were pretty firm in correcting me when I was trying to say ne'ghe; the first vowel is distinct from the standard /e/, and I hear it as /E/ as in 'neck'. Possibly the /e/ vs. /E/ distinction is equivalent to short vs. long /e/ though.) Stabler & Swetland are specifically Omaha, not OP like Dorsey, so they should only have the ne'(e)ghe form. Kathleen, how is it in Ponka? Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Nov 17 17:35:42 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 10:35:42 -0700 Subject: Borrowed Names in Omaha-Ponca In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Rory M Larson wrote: > The Dorsey dictionary [the NAA ms.] distinguishes these forms as > dialectal within OP: dhe'(e)ghe is Ponka, and ne'(e)ghe is Omaha. It should be possible to determine if the distribution in Dorsey matches the sources of his examples. I'll try to do that. > Our Omaha speakers use nE'ghe. (I'm not sure about length, but they > were pretty firm in correcting me when I was trying to say ne'ghe; the > first vowel is distinct from the standard /e/, and I hear it as /E/ as > in 'neck'. Possibly the /e/ vs. /E/ distinction is equivalent to short > vs. long /e/ though.) It might be a contextual effect of gh. Uvular and back velar fricatives tend to lower adjacent vowels. > Stabler & Swetland are specifically Omaha, not OP like Dorsey, so they > should only have the ne'(e)ghe form. Kathleen, how is it in Ponka? Yes, but I should hasten to indicate that I really didn't mean this to be taken as a defect in any sense. UmonNhoN Iye of Elizabeth Stabler is clearly not comprehensive, and I don't think the editors - Mark and Mrs. Stabler - ever claimed that. All I meant was the form wasn't attested there. From kdshea at ku.edu Tue Nov 18 04:14:26 2003 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:14:26 -0600 Subject: Borrowed Names in Omaha-Ponca Message-ID: I haven't kept up with the latest Siouan list postings, but I'll reply to Rory's question. I have /ne(e)'ghe/ 'bladder, bucket,' with /n/. In my first recording, I wrote [ne?ghe] (with a rising-falling contour pitch over the first vowel, which would indicate a long vowel) 'bladder' and [ne'ghe] 'bucket.' However, after asking again later, I was told that the two words have the same pronunciation. I assume that animal bladders were probably used as buckets, to haul liquids, at one time, so this is probably one word. I tend to think the stressed vowel is short in this case. We've commented before on the interchangeability of /dh/ and /n/ in some Omaha-Ponca words, and I think that it must happen fairly often. I've noticed it in /gasaN'dhiN/ 'tomorrow,' /is^tiN'nikhe/ 'trickster, monkey,' and some others, where Ponca will have one form of the word and Omaha the other. (I'm giving the Ponca pronunciation, as far as I know, here.) Kathy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 11:35 AM Subject: Re: Borrowed Names in Omaha-Ponca > On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Rory M Larson wrote: > > The Dorsey dictionary [the NAA ms.] distinguishes these forms as > > dialectal within OP: dhe'(e)ghe is Ponka, and ne'(e)ghe is Omaha. > > It should be possible to determine if the distribution in Dorsey matches > the sources of his examples. I'll try to do that. > > > Our Omaha speakers use nE'ghe. (I'm not sure about length, but they > > were pretty firm in correcting me when I was trying to say ne'ghe; the > > first vowel is distinct from the standard /e/, and I hear it as /E/ as > > in 'neck'. Possibly the /e/ vs. /E/ distinction is equivalent to short > > vs. long /e/ though.) > > It might be a contextual effect of gh. Uvular and back velar fricatives > tend to lower adjacent vowels. > > > Stabler & Swetland are specifically Omaha, not OP like Dorsey, so they > > should only have the ne'(e)ghe form. Kathleen, how is it in Ponka? > > Yes, but I should hasten to indicate that I really didn't mean this to be > taken as a defect in any sense. UmonNhoN Iye of Elizabeth Stabler is > clearly not comprehensive, and I don't think the editors - Mark and Mrs. > Stabler - ever claimed that. All I meant was the form wasn't attested > there. > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Nov 18 08:00:44 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 01:00:44 -0700 Subject: Borrowed Names in Omaha-Ponca In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Rory M Larson wrote: > > The Dorsey dictionary [the NAA ms.] distinguishes these forms as > > dialectal within OP: dhe'(e)ghe is Ponka, and ne'(e)ghe is Omaha. > > It should be possible to determine if the distribution in Dorsey matches > the sources of his examples. I'll try to do that. I've always wanted to do something like this, given that Dorsey makes it possible! For 'kettle': PpadhiNnappaz^i (Ponca) ne'ghe 211.9, 211.14, 226.4, 227.8, 231.17, 328.10, 438.19 Big Elk (Omaha) ne'ghe 338.12 George Miller (Omaha) ne'ghe 560.12 Frank LaFlesche (Omaha) ne'ghe 247.2 dhe'ghe 247.14 Joseph LaFlesche (Omaha) dhe'ghe 331.7, 331.11 TteukkaNha (Omaha) u'haN 254.5 ANphaNttaNga (= Big Elk) (Omaha) U'haNttaNga 'Big Kettle' (a name) 427.14 Note also uga's^ka 'to hang a kettle over a fire', bas^aNdha 'to push over a kettle and spill it', in which the reference to a kettle seems to be implicit. 'Earthen pot' is given once as maNdhiN'kka ne'ghe. So, the only users of dhe'ghe in the sense of 'kettle' are Joseph LaFlesche and (once of two tokens) Francis LaFlesche. Note that Dorsey did consider the LaFlesche family to be of Ponca origin, a sore bone of contention with at least Francis, who may have considered that it endangered family entitlements to severaltized lands. However, several Ponca sources use ne'ghe extensively and none use dhe'ghe. Some Omahas use u'haN (cf. Da wo'haN) 'something to cook in'. We don't really know from the contexts or glosses if any of the terms have specific references as to size or shape. No one is found using more than one form, but it's not clear that this is not chance. > For 'drum' NudaN'agha (Ponca) dhe'ghe gakku' 54.1, 54.6, 369.1, 369.3, 380.6 PpadhiNnappaz^i (Ponca) ne'ghe gakku' 445.4 Hexaga Sabe John Nichols (Ponca) ne'ghigakku 633.10 UhaNgeza^N (Ponca) ne'ghigakku 640.7 ANphaNttaNga (Omaha) ne'ghe gakku' 471.13 S^aNgeska (Omaha) ne'ghe xakku' (presumably an editorial error for ne'ghe gakku') 298.2 ne'ghe gakku' 298.4 George Miller (Omaha) ne'ghe gakku' 601.3, 601.11, 601.17, 602.1 With 'drum' all Omahas and one Ponca use ne'ghe gakku', while two other Poncas use ne'ghigakku and one uses dhe'ghe gakku'. Unfortunately, we don't know what this man used for 'kettle', and we don't know what the LaFlesche's used for 'drum'. > For 'bladder' TteukkaNha (Omaha) ttene'eghe 254.10, 255.8, 256.4, 259.11 Tteu'kkaNha's useage for '(buffalo) bladder' is consistent with his usage for 'kettle'. === In summary, while Dorsey's contention that dhe'ghe is Ponca and ne'ghe is Omaha is not inconsistent with his understanding of matters, it is clearly a significant oversimplification. Ne'ghe and ne'ghe gakku' or ne'ghigakku are the majority forms. A few individuals, who may or may not all be of Ponca origin, say dhe'ghe or dhe'ghe gakku'. Incidentally, LaFlesche gives t.se'xe in forms for pot, kettle, and drum in Osage. In theory this should have been dse'xe, representing ce'ghe. It's tempting to wonder if he could hear a difference between reflexes of *R and *t. In any event, he effectively writes *R here like *ht (tt). However, he writes it as ds in dse' 'lake' (Os ce', OP ne') and idse'gi 'uncle' (Os ice'ki, OP ine'gi). From goodtracks at GBRonline.com Thu Nov 20 20:39:39 2003 From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 14:39:39 -0600 Subject: Sac & Fox term Message-ID: Does anyone know if the term "Anishnabe" is the proper name that the Sac & Fox use to term themselves and their language? If this term is Ojibwe, Potawatomi, or another, what term do the Sac/ Sauk call themselves. jgt From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Nov 20 20:55:18 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:55:18 -0800 Subject: Sac & Fox term Message-ID: As far as I know, only Ojibwes and Potawatomis use that "Anishnabe" term. The most common name the Sauks use for themselves is /0a:ki:wa/ ('0' = theta, 'th' as in 'thin'), though alternates of /o0a:ki:wa/ and /a0a:ki:wa/ are also attested. David > Does anyone know if the term "Anishnabe" is the proper name that the Sac & > Fox use to term themselves and their language? If this term is Ojibwe, > Potawatomi, or another, what term do the Sac/Sauk call themselves. > jgt > > From hhgarvin at hotmail.com Thu Nov 20 21:42:53 2003 From: hhgarvin at hotmail.com (Henning Garvin) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 15:42:53 -0600 Subject: Sac & Fox term Message-ID: >>From my Ojibwe class I know 'Anishinaabe' is the term they (Ojibwe or Anishinaabe) use for themselves. 'Anishinaabemo' refers to their language. I called a relative of mine who is from Tama. His mother is Mesquakie and he is a native speaker of that language. He said they, in Iowa, call themselves 'Meskuaaki' which he roughly translated as people of the red earth. (I'm not sure on the spelling of this word, I used the standard Ojibwe method of spelling for this word.) He told me he was pretty sure that the Sac and Fox from Oklahoma refer to themselves as Zaagi, which roughly means people of the yellow earth. Again, I'm not entirely sure I have given the best spelling as I have used Ojibwe orthographical conventions. Henning Garvin Linguistic research Ho-Chunk Nation Language Division >From: "David Costa" >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: Sac & Fox term >Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:55:18 -0800 > >As far as I know, only Ojibwes and Potawatomis use that "Anishnabe" term. >The most common name the Sauks use for themselves is /0a:ki:wa/ ('0' = >theta, 'th' as in 'thin'), though alternates of /o0a:ki:wa/ and /a0a:ki:wa/ >are also attested. > >David > > > > Does anyone know if the term "Anishnabe" is the proper name that the Sac >& > > Fox use to term themselves and their language? If this term is Ojibwe, > > Potawatomi, or another, what term do the Sac/Sauk call themselves. > > jgt > > > > _________________________________________________________________ online games and music with a high-speed Internet connection! Prices start at less than $1 a day average. https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.) From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Nov 20 22:03:30 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 14:03:30 -0800 Subject: Sac & Fox term Message-ID: The Ojibwes call the Sauks /ozaagii/, but in a vowel-deleting dialect this would be /zaagii/. The Miamis call them /saakia/ and Meskwakies use /(a)sa:ki:wa/, but Sauk (and Kickapoo) changed /s/ to /0/ (theta). Hence the /0a:ki:wa/. Anyway, this name is discussed in the 'Sauk' chapter of the Handbook (volume 15, page 654). Dave > From my Ojibwe class I know 'Anishinaabe' is the term they (Ojibwe or > Anishinaabe) use for themselves. 'Anishinaabemo' refers to their language. > > I called a relative of mine who is from Tama. His mother is Mesquakie and > he is a native speaker of that language. He said they, in Iowa, call > themselves 'Meskuaaki' which he roughly translated as people of the red > earth. (I'm not sure on the spelling of this word, I used the standard > Ojibwe method of spelling for this word.) > > He told me he was pretty sure that the Sac and Fox from Oklahoma refer to > themselves as Zaagi, which roughly means people of the yellow earth. Again, > I'm not entirely sure I have given the best spelling as I have used Ojibwe > orthographical conventions. > > > Henning Garvin > Linguistic research > Ho-Chunk Nation Language Division > > > > >>From: "David Costa" >>Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >>To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >>Subject: Re: Sac & Fox term >>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:55:18 -0800 >> >>As far as I know, only Ojibwes and Potawatomis use that "Anishnabe" term. >>The most common name the Sauks use for themselves is /0a:ki:wa/ ('0' = >>theta, 'th' as in 'thin'), though alternates of /o0a:ki:wa/ and /a0a:ki:wa/ >>are also attested. >> >>David >> >> >>> Does anyone know if the term "Anishnabe" is the proper name that the Sac & >>> Fox use to term themselves and their language? If this term is Ojibwe, >>> Potawatomi, or another, what term do the Sac/Sauk call themselves. jgt > > > > From rankin at ku.edu Sat Nov 22 23:20:11 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 17:20:11 -0600 Subject: Bresnan WI/HC papers. Message-ID: While Googling the name of William Lipkind, I noticed that Joan Bresnan has a couple of recent papers that include discussion of some WI/HC data. One is on Optimality Theory and syntax and the other is on pidginization. She used Lipkind's grammar as a source, so the work may be "explanatorily adequate" without being "observationally adequate". Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Nov 24 17:03:58 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:03:58 -0700 Subject: Bresnan WI/HC papers. In-Reply-To: <002101c3b14f$403b0b90$d1b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, R. Rankin wrote: > While Googling the name of William Lipkind, I noticed that Joan Bresnan > has a couple of recent papers that include discussion of some WI/HC > data. One is on Optimality Theory and syntax and the other is on > pidginization. She used Lipkind's grammar as a source, so the work may > be "explanatorily adequate" without being "observationally adequate". I wonder in what respect Winnebago could be considered to provide data on pidginization? From rankin at ku.edu Mon Nov 24 17:16:30 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 11:16:30 -0600 Subject: Bresnan WI/HC papers. Message-ID: I haven't actually read either paper. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 11:03 AM Subject: Re: Bresnan WI/HC papers. > On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, R. Rankin wrote: > > While Googling the name of William Lipkind, I noticed that Joan Bresnan > > has a couple of recent papers that include discussion of some WI/HC > > data. One is on Optimality Theory and syntax and the other is on > > pidginization. She used Lipkind's grammar as a source, so the work may > > be "explanatorily adequate" without being "observationally adequate". > > I wonder in what respect Winnebago could be considered to provide data on > pidginization? > > From rankin at ku.edu Mon Nov 24 19:20:49 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:20:49 -0600 Subject: On-line data. Message-ID: I have a flyer from "Evolution Publishing", the publishers of the American Language Reprint series, advertising FREE access to their on-line database of (older) Native American vocabularies until the first of the year. After Dec. 31st it won't be free, and they're advertising a fairly steep access rate after that. The website is . I have not checked this out and do not know anything about it except what is in the ad. I know there should be 3 Tutelo/Saponi and a couple of Catawba vocabularies in it, but maybe not much else Siouan. FWIW Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BARudes at aol.com Tue Nov 25 02:41:54 2003 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 21:41:54 EST Subject: On-line data. Message-ID: I checked the Evolution Publishing website. As part of a beta-test, Evolution Publishing is allowing access to most features of its site for free until the end of Decemeber. Access includes its search engine that allows one to find native equivalents for English words. However, it does not allow access to the full vocabularies. I did a couple of searches and found data for Catawba (Barton 1798, Gallatin [Miller]) 1836), Woccon (Lawson 1709), and Tutelo (Hale 1883, Sapir 1913, Frachtenburg 1913). Blair From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Nov 25 02:41:31 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:41:31 -0700 Subject: Lipkind (fwd) Message-ID: This, from Bob Rankin, reposted with his permission, was the forerunner of the Lipkind comment. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:59:58 -0600 From: R. Rankin To: Koontz John E , Kathleen Shea Subject: Re: Lipkind What the NAA says about Lipkind "post-Winnebago". Bob LIPKIND, WILLIAM (1904-1974), Papers After he had studied law, history, and English literature at Columbia University, William Lipkind became a student of Franz Boas and Ruth F. Benedict. In the summer of 1936, Boas sent him to Winnebago, Nebraska, to study the Winnebago language and review Paul Radin's work on Winnebago.The work provided data for his doctoral dissertation, published as Winnebago Grammar in 1945. Lipkind's next field experience was in Brazil, where he spent 1937-1939 with the Carajaacute. During the same period, he investigated neighboring peoples, including the Cayapoacute. >>From this came his article on the Carajaacute for the Handbook of South American Indians, Bureau of American Ethnology Bulletin 143, volume 3, 1948, and an article on Carajaacute cosmology in the Journal of American Folklore in 1940. Following a brief teaching career at Ohio State University, Lipkind worked in Europe for the federal government in Europe. After returning to the United States in 1947, his activity in anthropology was largely teaching. His publications were mostly children's literature. Lipkind's papers are largely limited to field material. They are, however, incomplete, for some remains in private hands, and his Carajaacute sound recordings (of which the archives has poor copies) are at Indiana University. A few pieces of correspondence relating to his article for the Handbook of South American Indians are with Julian H. Steward. The Winnebago material includes a vocabulary that may be by the nineteenth-century missionary William T. Findley. DATES: Mostly 1936-1939 QUANTITY: ca. 1.5 linear meters (ca. 5 linear feet) ARRANGEMENT: (1) Carajaacute material (notebooks, correspondence and drafts for the article in the Handbook of South American Indians, photographs, sound recordings, 1937-1939; (2) Cayapoacute notebook; (3) Winnebago material (notebooks, dictionaries); (4) Mandan dictionary, n.d.; (5) miscellany FINDING AID: Folder list QUANTITY: 3 prints From rankin at ku.edu Fri Nov 28 15:36:29 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 09:36:29 -0600 Subject: Dances with Wolves. Message-ID: I see that the PAX network is running this movie tonight at 8pm eastern, 7 central. Don't know about mountain or pacific. For those of us wasicun's who don't get a chance to hear much spoken Lakota, I think most of the "elders" in the movie who have large speaking parts seem to be pretty fluent. I'm told that the bit players were mostly Cree, since it was filmed in Canada, and they had to learn their Lakota lines like Kevin Costner. I don't think anyone has ever figured out what the "Pawnee" speakers in the movie were actually speaking. Bob From goodtracks at GBRonline.com Fri Nov 28 16:10:01 2003 From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:10:01 -0600 Subject: Dances with Wolves. Message-ID: Bob: It's been a while, but if I recall, Wes Studi was speaking in his own Cherokee language, not Pawnee. I dont recall hearing any Pawnee spoken at all from the "Pawnees" in the Dances movie. It's quite a long time now since I've heard any Pawnee spoken in any movie. Perhaps Doug Parks would have some idea of various movies which include Pari speaking lines. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Rankin" To: Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 9:36 AM Subject: Dances with Wolves. > I see that the PAX network is running this movie > tonight at 8pm eastern, 7 central. Don't know > about mountain or pacific. > > For those of us wasicun's who don't get a chance > to hear much spoken Lakota, I think most of the > "elders" in the movie who have large speaking > parts seem to be pretty fluent. I'm told that the > bit players were mostly Cree, since it was filmed > in Canada, and they had to learn their Lakota > lines like Kevin Costner. I don't think anyone > has ever figured out what the "Pawnee" speakers in > the movie were actually speaking. > > Bob > > > > From munro at ucla.edu Fri Nov 28 17:33:33 2003 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 09:33:33 -0800 Subject: Dances with Wolves. In-Reply-To: <000f01c3b5c5$77dc58e0$e2b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: My first Lakhota teacher, the late Hannah Lefthand Bull Fixico, worked on the editing of this movie with Kevin Costner (who she adored -- he was very polite and nice to her, and she loved wearing her DWW cast jacket). In fact, I believe only the old chief's wife (Doris Leader Charge) is in fact a fluent native speaker (so listen to her!) -- as I understand it she was responsible for coaching the other cast members. Pam R. Rankin wrote: >I see that the PAX network is running this movie >tonight at 8pm eastern, 7 central. Don't know >about mountain or pacific. > >For those of us wasicun's who don't get a chance >to hear much spoken Lakota, I think most of the >"elders" in the movie who have large speaking >parts seem to be pretty fluent. I'm told that the >bit players were mostly Cree, since it was filmed >in Canada, and they had to learn their Lakota >lines like Kevin Costner. I don't think anyone >has ever figured out what the "Pawnee" speakers in >the movie were actually speaking. > >Bob > > > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Nov 28 19:27:50 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 12:27:50 -0700 Subject: Dances with Wolves. In-Reply-To: <3FC786ED.3000702@ucla.edu> Message-ID: Rodney Grant (http://www.rodneygrant.com/home.htm), the actor who plays "Wind in His Hair," not exactly one of the major roles, but much more than a bit part, is an Omaha, although, as far as I know, not fluent in Omaha-Ponca, being from the post-WWII generations. I could be wrong, but this character's name "Wind in His Hair" sounds like one of author Michael Blake's Neo-Rousseauian Blakisms, along with "Dances with Wolves" itself, of course. A number of names he simply borrowed (in translation) or maybe analogized from various sources. Anyway, while I'm far from a specialist in Plains area personal names, my suspicion is that a more likely Omaha-Ponca version of the concept might be more aptly translated "Disheveled." John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz > R. Rankin wrote: >... I'm told that the bit players were mostly Cree, since it was filmed >in Canada, and they had to learn their Lakota lines like Kevin Costner. From are2 at buffalo.edu Sat Nov 29 02:48:07 2003 From: are2 at buffalo.edu (are2 at buffalo.edu) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:48:07 -0500 Subject: Dances with Wolves- Location In-Reply-To: <3FC786ED.3000702@ucla.edu> Message-ID: Hey! I'm in Pierre, SD and there are signs all over indicating that Dances with WOlves was filmed here. My man and the internet confirm that the bulk of the filming was done in SD. His Auntie (a fluent speaker, but she didn't have a speaking role) was in it and even the white soldiers were locals. So, I don't know about this Cree connection. -Ardis From rankin at ku.edu Sat Nov 29 15:32:51 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 09:32:51 -0600 Subject: Dances with Wolves- Location Message-ID: It was on NPR back when the movie was released and they interviewed some of the Crees (Incl. Graham Green, I think) involved. It's not uncommon for a film to be shot in a variety of different places that purport to be a single locale though. Bob > Hey! I'm in Pierre, SD and there are signs all over indicating that > Dances with WOlves was filmed here. My man and the internet confirm > that the bulk of the filming was done in SD. His Auntie (a fluent > speaker, but she didn't have a speaking role) was in it and even the > white soldiers were locals. So, I don't know about this Cree > connection. > -Ardis > > From jkyle at ku.edu Sat Nov 29 19:26:48 2003 From: jkyle at ku.edu (John Kyle) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 13:26:48 -0600 Subject: Dances with Wolves. Message-ID: I had the chance to watch "Dances with Wolves" when it first came out on video (early 90's) with a 72 year old Lakhota speaker. In addition to dozing off through out the movie he commented that the actors talked 'liked children'. I imagine this is due to the actors not being native speakers of Lakhota. Another movie with an authentic Lakhota speaker is "Thunderheart" with Val Kilmer (also filmed in South Dakota). Unfortunately, the Lakhota speaker, Chief Ted Thin Elk, was hit by a car and died several months after the movie was released. It's not a bad movie and is worth seeing if only for the Lakhota. John Kyle jkyle at ku.edu ************************************** "We need an energy bill that encourages consumption." - Pres. Bush, Trenton, N.J., Sept. 23, 2002 From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Nov 29 22:21:34 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:21:34 -0700 Subject: 'town'/'friend' (was Re: iron/ metal ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A while back David Costa questioned my suggestion that PS *htuNwaN 'clan, town' might underlie PA *ooteeweni 'town', or at least represent a loan from the same unknown source, hypothetically a language associated with "Mississippian" cultural phenomenon. He argued: "This strikes me as rather implausible. The root is Proto-Algonquian */o:te:-/ (*o:te:weni is just a nominalization off that), & it seems to have meant 'dwell together as a group'. It's very well integrated into the Algonquian lexicon in that it appears in several different reconstructible collocations, plus it's found throughout the family. So if it was a loan, it really was all the way back at the PA level. If the Siouan cognate is only present in one or two branches of Siouan, this would strongly suggest to me that the borrowing had to have been Algonquian -> Siouan, which is actually the usual direction." I thought I owed to him to explain my reasoning a bit more fully, but it's taken me a while to get around to this. 'clan, town' Siouan Te othuN'wahe 'cluster of houses, village, town; Washington, DC' -thuNwaN (~ -thuN ?) suffix on names of Dakota subtribes thuNwaN'=yec^a 'to dwell at a place' Sa othuN'we 'cluster of houses or tents, village, town' thuNwaN'=yaN 'to make a village, to dwell somewhere' -thuNwaN ~ -thuN suffix on names of Dakota subtribes Note that terms for 'clan' are along the lines of (thi)os^paye, oyate, owe. I'm not sure if the -thuN variant of the suffix occurs in Teton usage. It's probably essentially a fast speech form in any event. OP ttaN'waN 'town' (ttaN'aN with rearticulation in fast speech.) ttaN'waN=gdhaN 'tribe, clan' Ks ttaN'maN, ttaN'maN=laN 'town, camp, village' Os ttaN'waN 'town' ttaN'waN=laN 'gens' Qu ttoN'waN, ttoN' 'town' o'ttaN=knaN 'tribe, nation' The -gdhaN, -laN, -knaN are all probably positionals, based on the 'round or compact' root *raN. K- may be orientive in the context, cf. itti=...gdhaN 'to place in the belt'. The gdhaN is actually an inflected element, i.e., this is ttaN'waN=...gdhaN, cf. OP ttaN'waN=iNgdhaN 'we constitute a nation for him'. Bi taNyaN', taaN', taN' 'town, village' Biloxi probably had aspiration, and this t is not marked for "non-aspiration," so it may be aspirated. Dorsey specifically compares the Biloxi form with Dakotan and Dhegiha forms. The combination of Siouan attestations suggests something like PS *htuN'waN, perhaps *htuNwaNh, but the final -he in Teton, the -y- of Biloxi, the first syllable vowel in Biloxi, and the second syllable vowel in Santee are all perhaps a bit problematic or irregular, though nothing a Siouanist couldn't comfortably attribute to analogy or unknown suffixing patterns. The aN ~ e looks like nominal ablaut, with -a perhaps by analogy from -e, since -a ~ -e is more common. The -he might be a positional, and so on. The root is also a bit unusual in form, but has its parallels. In short, this is a regular set for any but the obsessively picky. It is not universally attested, of course, but is is presumably replaced by innovations in where it is not attested. Winnebago and Chiwere, for example, use for 'town' forms based on 'to dwell' + a positional, i.e., Wi c^iinaN'k, IO c^hi'naN, both suggesting earlier *hti-raNk- My knowledge of the Algonquian forms is limited to what appears in George Aubin's now somewhat dated summary, p. 118. He gives PA *ooteeweni sg., *ooteewenali pl. 'town, village'. This appears regularly in Fox ooteeweni/ooteewenani and Shawnee hoteewe/hoteewena, but undergoes metathesis of -we- and -na- in Ojibwe ooteenaw/ooteenawan, Cree ooteenaw/ ooteenawah, Penobscot o'tene/o'tenal, and Natick otan/???. These are the only forms he sites though there may well be others. I believe here that *-i is the singular inanimate suffix, and *-ali the associated plural. Granted that apart from the metathesis there is nothing irregular here, I know that loans can often look much like inherited material, if borrowed between rather similar languages and we do have here an essentially "central" distribution, apart from the Penobscot and Natick forms, and these last share the metathesis that appears in all forms north and east of Ojibwe. In short, one could see a loan here without too much difficulty, the metathesis occurring in Ojibwe and being propagated beyond that. The oo- initial syllable is also interesting, given that o- is a Siouan locative prefix, appearing in, for example, Dakotan and Quapaw forms with this root. We're comparing a Siouan model, not necessarily one of the presently attested forms, along the lines of *o-htuN'waN with Algonquian *ooteewen-. In other directions we find that (Muskogean) Choctaw has "ta.maha" (from Byington, with a, for underdotted a - short a?) 'town'. This also occurs in the Mobilian trade language in essentially identical form. As far as I know, the usual Muskogean terms for 'town' are something like okla, e.g., Chickasaw okla. I don't know if Alabama oola is related, since it also has okla 'friend', and the 'friend' term seems to be the basis of 'town'. However, my data are restricted to Choctaw, Chickasaw, and Alabama. The CSD also suggests investigating further (Caddoan) Arikara ituu'nu. I had noticed an element which I think was spelled tuh in various Arikara clan names at some point, but my source for this is still apparently boxed from my series of moves over the last few years. I don't want to attach any real emphasis to the Caddoan forms since I don't have any real knowledge of how relevant forms work across Caddoan. The possibly correlating friend terms: Te kho'la 'friend (of male)' lakhota ~ lakhol= 'allies' Sa kho'da 'friend (of male)' dakhota ~ dakhol= 'allies' The difficulty of associating the friend and ally terms has been discussed in the past. It is possible that -la and -da in 'friend' are connected with the diminutive Te =la and Sa =daN ~ =na. OP iNdakkudha (perhaps a Dakota loan) 'friend' (archaic) Ks kko'ya 'friend (of male?)' Os ihko'dha ~ hko'dha ~ hko'wa (recent)'friend (of male?)' Qu kko'da ~ kho'ta 'friend (of male?)' The OP term in common use today is khage' 'friend (of male)', perhaps related to similar terms khagesaNga 'younger brother' and khage' 'fourth son'. IO itha'ro (~ ithadu ~ ithara) 'friend' (*i-hta- Ps3-ALIENABLE-) Wi hic^ako'ro 'friend' (hi-c^a- < *i-hta- Ps3-ALIENABLE-) The Dakotan forms suggest *hkoRa ~ *hkota, while the Dhegiha ones seem to suggest *hkora. The Winnebago might be *kro, but is probably *hkoro, and the Ioway-Otoe version may be a worn down version of the same or *(hko)Ro or *(hko)to. In short, the Siouan forms, though more or less universal in Mississippi Valley, do not correspond regularly between the lowest level of subfamilies, though they are regular within each of these (unless we count Winnebago-Chiwere as a lowest level subfamily). The Algonquian comparison here, again from Aubin, p. 114, is *nii0kaan-a 'my fellow clansman (man speaking)' (0 for theta), for which Aubin supplies Ojibwe niikkaaneen? 'my brother (man speaking)', niikkaaniss 'my brother (man speaking), my friend (man speaking)', Potawatomi nikkane ("probably"), Menomini neehkaah 'my brother (man speaking)', neehkaan 'my fellow participant in a rite', Fox niihkaana 'my friend (man speaking)'. As I understand it, in these forms final -a is the animate singular, nii- is the first person possessive, and the -ss or -iss in the one Ojibwe form is the diminutive. Again, it is possible that there are further attestations beyond what is cited here. This may be comparable to Choctaw "kana" (from Byington, perhaps representing kaana, since the first a is not dotted) 'friend', and also Chickasaw inkaNna? 'friend'. This might be a good place to set out a short list of Muskogean (and Mobilian) forms: Gloss town nation, people friend Mobilian tamaha ??? mokula Choctaw ta.maha okla kana Chickasaw okla imaaokla? inkaNna? okloshi Alabama oola ??? okla It appears that these concepts are related, etymologically, in Muskogean, and that the tamaha and kana forms are somewhat intrusive in the domain. The ? here is a final glottal, which I believe is a nominalizing suffix here. From rankin at ku.edu Sun Nov 30 22:38:30 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 16:38:30 -0600 Subject: Fw: Delivery Notification: Delivery has timed out and failed (fwd) Message-ID: Sorry if anybody else tried to reach any of us at KU. The IMAP server here was hopelessly screwed up most of last week. I could neither send nor receive mail much of the time. They said it was "too much spam". I suspect that, as usual, it was "too many tenured geeks" who learned their trade on VAX, IBM, etc. mainframes and have never "upgraded" that knowledge. :-) The Ioway-Otoe form depends on whether *tp metathesizes to *pt > hd like *tk > kt, etc. I didn't have applicable forms that would tell me if *tp and *tk behave alike. I suppose 'drink' would be a place to start verifying. Bob > Somehow this failed to get through, though I think others since have. > Maybe the server is down and the others are still retrying. > > This report relates to a message you sent with the following header fields: > > Message-id: > Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:11:31 -0700 (MST) > From: Koontz John E > To: "R. Rankin" > Subject: Re: Groin > > Your message is being returned; it has been enqueued and undeliverable for > 1 day to the following recipients: > > Recipient address: kdshea at KU.EDU > Reason: unable to deliver this message after 1 day > Recipient address: rankin at KU.EDU > Reason: unable to deliver this message after 1 day > > The actual message I tried to send: > > > So, IO should have *ht, leading to hd ~ hj^, depending on the following > > vowel, and Wi should have c^VwV, depending on the following vowel. Given > > that that vowel is *i, > ihj^i and > ic^iwi. However, I haven't spotted > > either form. If there's a form outside MVS, this could go in the CSD. > > Correction - IO would have *tw, or > itwi. So, it looks like the IO form > in the 'soft' set is wrong. That set in the CSD is probably questionable, > at least as far as the IO form. > > JEK > > Actually, I guess it would be *idwi, in the usual way of writing IO > unaspirated stops as voiced. Anyway, it doesn't seem to exist. > From rankin at ku.edu Sat Nov 1 16:06:24 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 10:06:24 -0600 Subject: butterfly Message-ID: > What's of special interest, of course, in the present contect, is that > element nic^a in the Santee form. I'm pretty sure that's nic^a, not > nic^ha, and I suspect it's a contextual variant of *yiNka 'little'. I > think that's regularly c^hiNc^a' 'child' in Dakotan. I suspect that in > contexts that allow *y to be intervocalic, it can be rhoticized and the > resulting *riNka would appear as ni(N)c^a in Dakotan. > This element could also be nic^a < *riNke 'to lack', but I don't see how > that would work. I'd have to say that neither works for me. Dhegiha doesn't seem to share in any of these varieties of 'little' with /n-/ as far as I can tell. Doublets /z^iNka/ 'little' and /z^iN/ 'diminutive' are common, but I can't recall any at all with /n/. > Winnebago, which merges *r and *y regularly, has niNk as a diminutive, as > in wake'(niNk) 'raccoon', s^uNuNgniNk 'puppy', and so on. But not in the South. > Of course, whether or not nic^a is 'little', it's clearly a good match for > the Quapaw nikka. It would be a regular match if Quapaw had nika. I think that is entirely possible, especially given Osage /hkihtanika/ with the single /k/, written by LF. It's a bit strange, given that Dorsey didn't often confuse the lax with the other series of stops (very often confusing the aspirated and tense ones), but he does it on occasion, even in Kansa. Just last week I was reading one of the historical texts aloud for the language program and ran across several instances of /ga:yo/ 'then', written . So I suspect you're right and that Quapaw has /-nika/. BTW, Biloxi has /tiNskana'/ 'jay', with simple /tiNska/ meaning 'back of the neck'. But Ofo is /teska itho:hi/ 'bluejay' = 'bird' + 'blue'. And tiNska/teska may somehow be related, given the Dakotan and other forms. > Presumably something like this explains ppiza, too. Naw, that was just my mistake for 'sand', which has /pp/. My memory is fading.... Dorsey's "philosophy" of transcription was slightly different from ours. I explained it in my (yes, unpublished) paper on Biloxi stops. But it was similar in that he tended to use unmodified letters for sounds he considered the least "marked", and, for him, those were the sounds most like English. So unmodified ptk were used for aspirates (which they mostly are in English). The ones he wrote with diacritics were those he considered most remarkable, i.e., least like English. He wrote them with the little x beneath (LaFlesche's dot) and they were printed upside down. The bottom line is that the diacritic is always used on the most lenis voiceless series. Unfortunately this means that the languages with voiced lax stops (Omaha, Ponca and Kaw) use the subscript x for voiceless tense stops, while Quapaw and Osage, which lack a voiced series, use the x for the voiceless lax stops. Confused? Well, anyway, I think John is right that Quapaw probably has /nika/ in 'jay'. Bob From goodtracks at GBRonline.com Sat Nov 1 23:59:16 2003 From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 17:59:16 -0600 Subject: iron/ metal Message-ID: Bob: Has it been determined the source of the word iron [maza (L/Dak); madhe (IO); maNaNs (Winn); maNze (Q/K)]. There was no known use of metal or iron prior to the trading days with Europeans. So is the word borrowed? Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Rankin" To: Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 7:37 PM Subject: Re: butterfly > > Quapaw ttitta is 'living' according to Alice Gilmore, > the very lively lady I recorded some Quapaw with in > 1972. As in the term /maNzettitta/ 'clock' < "living > iron". > > Kansa wakkuje is 'shooting'. > > FWIW, > > Bob > > > From rankin at ku.edu Sun Nov 2 15:27:32 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 09:27:32 -0600 Subject: iron/ metal Message-ID: Hi Jimm, > Has it been determined the source of the word iron [maza (L/Dak); madhe > (IO); maNaNs (Winn); maNze (Q/K)]. > There was no known use of metal or iron prior to the trading days with > Europeans. So is the word borrowed? You ask a real good question and not one for which there is a clear answer. A couple of things though: 1. Metal was available in precontact times even though smelted metals were not used in the Western Hemisphere. Copper occurs in its metalic form in nature. There are places where pieces of it can be found lying around on the surface of the ground. This copper can be hammered into a variety of shapes and this happened. 2. Meteorites might also provide a small amount of iron. I don't think they had the means to melt it into various shapes, but, again, it could be pounded. But metallurgy is very recent all over the world. The "Iron Age" doesn't begin in Europe until around 4 thousand years ago. Before that, all they had was copper (sometimes mixed with a little tin to form bronze) too. A friend of mine in California collected the words for 'metal' in all the languages he could find -- European, Asian, American and all the rest. The words display some amazing similarities in form/pronunciation. I think his contention might be that they all spread out from some spot in the Old World where smelting of iron ore began, including into the new world. But it is controversial, as you can imagine. With Siouan, it is conceivable that 'iron' comes from the older root for 'flint, chert', something like *waN-. But that too is just a guess. I really need to get your disks back to you, even though you got the dictionary from Ken, and pick up my Wordperfect. . . . :-) Bob From rankin at ku.edu Sun Nov 2 15:33:58 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 09:33:58 -0600 Subject: iron/ metal Message-ID: Oops. Sorry, I thought I was corresponding with Jimm personally rather than with the whole list! Sorry to bother everyone with personal business. I was rescuing some material for him from an old 5 inch floppy onto a 3 " one. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Nov 3 17:19:07 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 10:19:07 -0700 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] In-Reply-To: <000901c3a155$e9c2b690$d1b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Nov 2003, R. Rankin wrote: > > Query from Jimm Good Tracks > > Has it been determined the source of the word iron [maza (L/Dak); > > madhe (IO); maNaNs (Winn); maNze (Q/K)]. There was no known use of > > metal or iron prior to the trading days with Europeans. > > So is the word borrowed? > > A friend of mine in California collected the words for 'metal' in all > the languages he could find -- European, Asian, American and all the > rest. The words display some amazing similarities in > form/pronunciation. I think his contention might be that they all > spread out from some spot in the Old World where smelting of iron ore > began, including into the new world. But it is controversial, as you > can imagine. Precontact artifacts made from copper occur with some frequency in the Midwest. As far as I know they are all ornamental an/or religious, i.e., not pots or weapons. Anyway, copper is the most likely original reference of the "metal" term set. Meteoritic iron is another possibility, as Bob suggests, and silver and gold were certainly worked in Mesoamerica, and if any small samples found their way into the Midwest they may or may not have been considered as "metal." Plainly various metals acquired later in trade were plainly considered so and today the "metal term" is usually considered to mean "iron." I remember Victor Golla (in California, but perhaps not the indivudual Bob refers to) asking about the Siouan terms. I gather they somewhat resemble terms of similar reference in Athabascan languages, but I don't know the details. My recollection is that *waNs- "metal" has a rather restricted distribution in Siouan and some irregularities associated with it, so that it is actually a fairly good candidate for a loan, if an old one. Alternatively, there is enough of a resemblance to 'chest' that I've sometimes wondered about 'pectoral (making material)' as a source, with pectoral in the sense of a chest ornament - what was once called a gorget, as an element of European military ornamentation, though I don't mean to suggest a connection. I tend to think that the fairly widespread expression for "money," 'white metal', cf., e.g., OP maNze ska, more or less maN(s)ska in regular speech, was originally a calque of French argent, i.e., 'white metal' = 'silver'. I don't know how widely spread 'white metal' formations are in North America. It might be interesting to track down the distributions of forms like this, 'fire water' (< eau ardent?), and so on. I believe they occur in at least Siouan and Algonquian, and I think they are probably more or less coextensive with such probable actual loans as kkokkomaN 'cucumber' or kkukkusi 'pig' (OP forms), presumably from concombre and (certainly from) couscous, or, for that matter s^aglas^a 'British' (Da) or ragras^iN 'British' (IO), presumably from les Anglais/l'Anglais. I know some of these forms have been investigated, but I don't think anyone has done it systematically, but only term by term. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Nov 3 17:57:07 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 10:57:07 -0700 Subject: butterfly In-Reply-To: <001301c3a092$2e1519b0$d1b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Nov 2003, R. Rankin wrote: > I'd have to say that neither works for me. Dhegiha doesn't seem to share > in any of these varieties of 'little' with /n-/ as far as I can tell. > Doublets /z^iNka/ 'little' and /z^iN/ 'diminutive' are common, but I > can't recall any at all with /n/. It would certainly be unusual - read phonologically irregular - to have *yiNk- 'be small' appear as if from *riNk- in either Dhegiha or Dakotan, so, of course, it would be a long shot. I tried to suggest a compound-internal context as the conditioning factor. It does look like a comparably similar element, whatever it is. > > Winnebago, which merges *r and *y regularly, has niNk as a diminutive, > > as in wake'(niNk) 'raccoon', s^uNuNgniNk 'puppy', ... > > But not in the South. Where - in case it's not clear - Bob means, 'not in Dhegiha', not 'not in Nebraska Winnebago'. > I think that is entirely possible, especially given Osage /hkihtanika/ > with the single /k/, written by LF. > BTW, Biloxi has /tiNskana'/ 'jay', with simple /tiNska/ meaning 'back of > the neck'. But Ofo is /teska itho:hi/ 'bluejay' = 'bird' + 'blue'. > And tiNska/teska may somehow be related, given the Dakotan and other > forms. I think that all the somewhat irregularly matching TV(s) syllables here are onomatopoeic representations of the jay's "jay" call. For example, I suspect tiNskana and teska are essentially tiNs-ka (+ ???) and tes-ka 'one (that goes) tiNs' or 'one (that goes) tes'. It's hard to say, of course, with onomatopoeic terms. They can include non-imitative morphology, and once formulated they undergo sound changes like everything else, so that when inherited they often have a family-typical form and may correspond regularly, but, by definition they are imitative in origin, and they are prone to being refreshed, which can produce irregularities. In fact you have to expect both rather regular-looking similarities and irregularities. In this respect onomatopoeics are a lot like loans, which, in effect they are. It helps to know what sorts of terms are often onomatopoeic, and what the onomatopoeic basis of particular terms might sound like. Bird names are often onomatopoeic (think of whippoorwill), but can be borrowed (jay) or inherited (crow) for all that. One pattern I haven't noticed in Siouan is using "nicknames" for birds - things like robin (redbreast) or magpie or tomtit. Of course, names are not used in as many contexts in Siouan cultures as they are in European cultures, but maybe I just don't recognize the examples when I see them. From kdshea at ku.edu Mon Nov 3 18:45:27 2003 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 12:45:27 -0600 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] Message-ID: MaN'ze (or perhaps long--maNaN'ze--since it does contrast with the word maNze' 'breast' in OP) 'metal' is used in a lot of words for modern inventions or machinery, like maNaNze waaN 'phonograph'; 'radio.' It's in the word for 'sewing machine,' which I can't recall off the top of my head right now and in several other words, probably some for farming implements. I had never thought about the words maNze 'breast' and maNge 'chest' in OP having a connection in a shared morpheme maN- 'pectoral,' but it certainly makes sense. Kathy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: "Siouan List" Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 11:19 AM Subject: Re: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] > On Sun, 2 Nov 2003, R. Rankin wrote: > > > Query from Jimm Good Tracks > > > Has it been determined the source of the word iron [maza (L/Dak); > > > madhe (IO); maNaNs (Winn); maNze (Q/K)]. There was no known use of > > > metal or iron prior to the trading days with Europeans. > > > So is the word borrowed? > > > > A friend of mine in California collected the words for 'metal' in all > > the languages he could find -- European, Asian, American and all the > > rest. The words display some amazing similarities in > > form/pronunciation. I think his contention might be that they all > > spread out from some spot in the Old World where smelting of iron ore > > began, including into the new world. But it is controversial, as you > > can imagine. > > Precontact artifacts made from copper occur with some frequency in the > Midwest. As far as I know they are all ornamental an/or religious, i.e., > not pots or weapons. Anyway, copper is the most likely original reference > of the "metal" term set. Meteoritic iron is another possibility, as Bob > suggests, and silver and gold were certainly worked in Mesoamerica, and if > any small samples found their way into the Midwest they may or may not > have been considered as "metal." Plainly various metals acquired later in > trade were plainly considered so and today the "metal term" is usually > considered to mean "iron." > > I remember Victor Golla (in California, but perhaps not the indivudual Bob > refers to) asking about the Siouan terms. I gather they somewhat resemble > terms of similar reference in Athabascan languages, but I don't know the > details. > > My recollection is that *waNs- "metal" has a rather restricted > distribution in Siouan and some irregularities associated with it, so that > it is actually a fairly good candidate for a loan, if an old one. > Alternatively, there is enough of a resemblance to 'chest' that I've > sometimes wondered about 'pectoral (making material)' as a source, with > pectoral in the sense of a chest ornament - what was once called a gorget, > as an element of European military ornamentation, though I don't mean to > suggest a connection. > > I tend to think that the fairly widespread expression for "money," 'white > metal', cf., e.g., OP maNze ska, more or less maN(s)ska in regular speech, > was originally a calque of French argent, i.e., 'white metal' = 'silver'. > I don't know how widely spread 'white metal' formations are in North > America. It might be interesting to track down the distributions of forms > like this, 'fire water' (< eau ardent?), and so on. I believe they occur > in at least Siouan and Algonquian, and I think they are probably more or > less coextensive with such probable actual loans as kkokkomaN 'cucumber' > or kkukkusi 'pig' (OP forms), presumably from concombre and (certainly > from) couscous, or, for that matter s^aglas^a 'British' (Da) or ragras^iN > 'British' (IO), presumably from les Anglais/l'Anglais. I know some of > these forms have been investigated, but I don't think anyone has done it > systematically, but only term by term. > > JEK From hhgarvin at hotmail.com Mon Nov 3 18:46:53 2003 From: hhgarvin at hotmail.com (Henning Garvin) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 12:46:53 -0600 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] Message-ID: >Precontact artifacts made from copper occur with some frequency in the >Midwest. As far as I know they are all ornamental an/or religious, i.e., >not pots or weapons. Anyway, copper is the most likely original reference >of the "metal" term set. Meteoritic iron is another possibility, as Bob >suggests, and silver and gold were certainly worked in Mesoamerica, and if >any small samples found their way into the Midwest they may or may not >have been considered as "metal." Plainly various metals acquired later in >trade were plainly considered so and today the "metal term" is usually >considered to mean "iron." > Sorry, but the archaeologist in me is about to come out. It is true that copper artifacts occur quite frequently in pre-contact times. But if you look at the Old Copper Complex, you see a wide range of utilitarian goods being made from copper, so the distribution was not solely restricted to personal adornment and items of a spiritual nature. There is actually a number of weapon types that came from this period which have been identified. I really only know this because my capstone class for anthrolopogy focused on pre-historic warfare in the midwest region. As far as Hocank is concerned, the form ' maNaNs' refers to metal, mainly iron, and my informants have told me that the word for copper is 'maNaNs shuuc' or red metal. I'm not sure this helps the discussion, but I thought I'd share. _________________________________________________________________ Fretting that your Hotmail account may expire because you forgot to sign in enough? Get Hotmail Extra Storage today! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es From kdshea at ku.edu Mon Nov 3 19:40:09 2003 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 13:40:09 -0600 Subject: Affrication Diminutive Marker (Re: butterfly) Message-ID: I've found that it's true that speakers of Ponca tend to use both the dental-stop variant and the affricated variant of words interchangeably or recognize only one as the "real" form. However, I have noticed that there's some productive use of the distinction to create new vocabulary. I have only one consultant right now, Uncle Parrish Williams--and I really need to check with more speakers--but he firmly maintains that ttu means 'blue' and c^c^u means 'green.' He says that maNs^c^iNge is 'cottontail' (maNs^tiska 'jack rabbit'--with oral, not nasal i) and that maNs^tiNge is the general word for 'rabbit.' He flatly rejects wathis^ka 'creek, brook' in favor of wac^his^ka. However, he says that waxc^a ~waxta are "about the same" and both mean 'flower, fruit,' although I thought that one time he said one meant 'flower' and the other 'fruit.' Similarly, he once said there is a difference in gradation between the forms of the intensifier xc^i and xti 'very, real,' but, when I last asked, he said they were pretty much the same. In Ponca, du'ba 'some' (contrasting with duu'ba 'four,' by the way, which has a long vowel) and j^uba 'few' are distinct in their meanings. The uncomfortable homophony that John mentions between wac^hi'gaag^e 'to dance' and c^hi 'to have sex with' is often avoided in Ponca by substitution with the more "polite" term naNthe 'to dance' (literally, 'to kick'). It's also true that Ponca makes use of affrication of dental stops for a diminuative effect, or "baby talk" (what John calls "grandmother speech"), as in "Dha?e'c^hewadhe!" 'You poor thing!' (said to a child) compared to "Dha?e'thewadhe!" (said to an adult), with the same meaning. This brings to mind a "xuube" joke that I was told: A woman sees a little nest of baby mice and says to the other people nearby, "J^u'ama j^NaN'baia!" ("Du'ama daNaN'baia!") 'Look at these!' To which her husband replies, "J^am!" 'Damn!' Kathy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 11:47 AM Subject: Affrication Diminutive Marker (Re: butterfly) > On Wed, 29 Oct 2003, Mark-Awakuni Swetland wrote: > > currently my two speakers working with the UNL Omaha language class go > > back and forth between wati'ninika and wachi'ninika ... The second form > > is new to me since working with these particular speakers. > > It's really pretty intertesting the number of variants for various things > available among the now fairly small set of Omaha and Ponca speakers. It > shows the weakness of working with single speakers instead of communities > in trying to draw a picture of something as big as a language. > > Anyway, as has been mentioned before, Omaha-Ponca seems to have a form of > diminutive marking that involves changing dentals to affricates: d tt th > t? to j^ c^c^ c^h c^?. In the new Popular Orthography, this would be d t > tH t' to j ch chH ch', I think, with capitals here for raised letters. > For some words both variants are available, at least within the community > as a whole, whereas for others only one form is attested. What I've > sometimes referred to as grandmother speech shows up in some Dorsey texts > and seems to involve very heavy use of this process. > > Other examples of the process include du'ba ~ j^uba 'some', iNthaN ~ > iNc^haN 'now ~ right now', wathis^ka ~ wac^his^ka 'creek', c^c^eska > 'small', iNc^haNga 'mouse', maNc^hu 'grizzley', maNs^tiNge ~ maNs^c^iNge > 'rabbit', wac^higaghe 'to dance', (historically unrelated to former) c^hi > 'to have sex with', t?e ~ c^?e 'die' (only in grandmother speech example, > if I recall) and so on. > > Speakers encountering a variant unfamiliar to them tend to reject it out > of hand as wrong, so this is probably not a productive process today. > From rankin at ku.edu Mon Nov 3 19:48:37 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 13:48:37 -0600 Subject: iron/ metal Message-ID: > I remember Victor Golla (in California, but perhaps not the indivudual Bob refers to) asking about the Siouan terms. I gather they somewhat resemble terms of similar reference in Athabascan languages, but I don't know the details. Yes, I was thinking about Victor's SSILA paper in 1997 or so. Not only did the metal terms in Siouan resemble others in North America, they resembled those found in Uralic and other Old World language families. He wasn't sure what to make of it and neither am I. But I wouldn't rule out migration of the term across the Bering Strait; it would just have to be proved, that's all. I have his handout around here somewhere, but if you could see the piles of paper in my office, you wouldn't expect me to be able to find it. :=) Bob From rankin at ku.edu Mon Nov 3 19:57:38 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 13:57:38 -0600 Subject: bird. Message-ID: > But not in the South. > Where - in case it's not clear - Bob means, 'not in Dhegiha', not 'not in Nebraska Winnebago'. Right. > BTW, Biloxi has /tiNskana'/ 'jay', with simple /tiNska/ meaning 'back of the neck'. But Ofo is /teska itho:hi/ 'bluejay' = 'bird' + 'blue'. And tiNska/teska may somehow be related, given the Dakotan and other forms. > I think that all the somewhat irregularly matching TV(s) syllables here are onomatopoeic representations of the jay's "jay" call. For example, I suspect tiNskana and teska are essentially tiNs-ka (+ ???) and tes-ka 'one (that goes) tiNs' or 'one (that goes) tes'. Possibly so, but Ofo /teska/ is 'bird' of any kind, not just jay. In pointing that out, I was trying to cast a bit of doubt about the JOD Biloxi form. Dorsey classifies it with the 'back of the neck' term, but I wonder if it isn't related to the Ofo 'bird' term, with 'back of the neck' in Biloxi being a mere homonym. Dorsey and Swanton's lexical materials are full of homonyms listed under single dictionary entries. Bob From munro at ucla.edu Mon Nov 3 20:08:37 2003 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 12:08:37 -0800 Subject: bird. In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164DB3@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I haven't been following all this as carefully as I should have, but we're getting into larger territories to the South here. Chickasaw has tIshkila 'bluejay' (the cap I is nasalized), with an "expressive" form tIsh tIsh tIsh aachi (characteristically three CVC syllables plus 'say') which my teacher tells me means 'to make a noise like a bluebird'. Pam Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > >>But not in the South. >> >> > > > >>Where - in case it's not clear - Bob means, 'not in Dhegiha', not 'not >> >> >in Nebraska Winnebago'. > >Right. > > > >>BTW, Biloxi has /tiNskana'/ 'jay', with simple /tiNska/ meaning 'back >> >> >of the neck'. But Ofo is /teska itho:hi/ 'bluejay' = 'bird' + 'blue'. >And tiNska/teska may somehow be related, given the Dakotan and other >forms. > > > >>I think that all the somewhat irregularly matching TV(s) syllables >> >> >here are onomatopoeic representations of the jay's "jay" call. For >example, I suspect tiNskana and teska are essentially tiNs-ka (+ ???) >and tes-ka 'one (that goes) tiNs' or 'one (that goes) tes'. > >Possibly so, but Ofo /teska/ is 'bird' of any kind, not just jay. In >pointing that out, I was trying to cast a bit of doubt about the JOD >Biloxi form. Dorsey classifies it with the 'back of the neck' term, but >I wonder if it isn't related to the Ofo 'bird' term, with 'back of the >neck' in Biloxi being a mere homonym. Dorsey and Swanton's lexical >materials are full of homonyms listed under single dictionary entries. > >Bob > > > > -- Pamela Munro Professor Department of Linguistics UCLA Box 951543 Los Angeles Ca 90095-1543 http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/linguistics/people/munro/munro.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon Nov 3 20:08:19 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 14:08:19 -0600 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] Message-ID: > As far as Hocank is concerned, the form ' maNaNs' refers to metal, mainly iron, and my informants have told me that the word for copper is 'maNaNs shuuc' or red metal. I'm not sure this helps the discussion, but I thought I'd share. It does help. And it might be worthwhile to point out that, generally speaking, when a word in a language gets a new meaning, the newer meaning often "takes over" the word completely, while the old meaning is conveyed by using the word with a modifier. Copper vs. iron would fit this very well. This principle doesn't always work, but it very often does. Thus, to take another example, Common Siouan $uNke 'dog, canid' in the older languages is often replaced by its newer meaning, 'horse', leaving 'dog' as $uNke + a modifier, as in Dhegiha *$oNke-oyudaN > $oNgiidaN, etc. Also, 'gun' has overtaken 'bow' in some languages, leaving 'bow' as the gun term plus a modifier. Bob From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Mon Nov 3 20:40:53 2003 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 14:40:53 -0600 Subject: Affrication Diminutive Marker (Re: butterfly) Message-ID: LOVE the joke! If this doesn't show productive use, I don't know what could. Catherine It's also true that Ponca makes use of affrication of dental stops for a diminuative effect, or "baby talk" (what John calls "grandmother speech"), as in "Dha?e'c^hewadhe!" 'You poor thing!' (said to a child) compared to "Dha?e'thewadhe!" (said to an adult), with the same meaning. This brings to mind a "xuube" joke that I was told: A woman sees a little nest of baby mice and says to the other people nearby, "J^u'ama j^NaN'baia!" ("Du'ama daNaN'baia!") 'Look at these!' To which her husband replies, "J^am!" 'Damn!' From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Nov 3 20:52:27 2003 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 14:52:27 -0600 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > I tend to think that the fairly widespread expression for "money," 'white > metal', cf., e.g., OP maNze ska, more or less maN(s)ska in regular speech, > was originally a calque of French argent, i.e., 'white metal' = 'silver'. > I don't know how widely spread 'white metal' formations are in North > America. It might be interesting to track down the distributions of forms > like this, 'fire water' (< eau ardent?), and so on. I believe they occur > in at least Siouan and Algonquian, and I think they are probably more or > less coextensive with such probable actual loans as kkokkomaN 'cucumber' > or kkukkusi 'pig' (OP forms), presumably from concombre and (certainly > from) couscous, or, for that matter s^aglas^a 'British' (Da) or ragras^iN > 'British' (IO), presumably from les Anglais/l'Anglais. Ojibway -- waab-aabik 'tin' (lit. 'white metal') biiw-aabik 'iron' miskw-aabik 'copper' (lit. 'red metal') biiw-aanag 'flint' z^ooniyaa 'silver' (< Sp. or Fr.?) is^kode-waaboo 'liquor' (lit. 'fire-water') z^aaganaas^ 'English' (prob. < Fr. [le]sanglais) -- Incidentally, are you all aware of Frank Siebert's (1967) suggestion that Proto-Algonquian *ooteeweni 'town, village' was borrowed from Siouan (cf. Da oti)? He also suggests that Da s^kec^a 'fisher (Martes pennanti) is from PA *wec^yeekwa and Da teteni^a, Catawba tinde 'blue jay' from PA *tiintiiwa (but onomatopoeia?) and notes several other suggestive similarities (Natl. Mus. Canada Bull. 214 pp. 48-59). Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Nov 3 21:53:38 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 14:53:38 -0700 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Henning Garvin wrote: > Sorry, but the archaeologist in me is about to come out. It is true that > copper artifacts occur quite frequently in pre-contact times. But if you > look at the Old Copper Complex, you see a wide range of utilitarian goods > being made from copper, so the distribution was not solely restricted to > personal adornment and items of a spiritual nature. There is actually a > number of weapon types that came from this period which have been > identified. I really only know this because my capstone class for > anthrolopogy focused on pre-historic warfare in the midwest region. Thanks, I appreciate the correction! I should have said that the only cases I could (vaguely) recall in conjunction with Oneota and other Mississippian sites were small "ornamental" items. I have the impression that Old Copper Complex is older, though I'm really fairly ignorant of it - you don't happen to recall the dates and approximate area, do you? From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Nov 3 21:57:31 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 14:57:31 -0700 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] In-Reply-To: <000a01c3a23a$a6be5440$3c09ed81@9afl3> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Kathleen Shea wrote: > MaN'ze (or perhaps long--maNaN'ze--since it does contrast with the word > maNze' 'breast' in OP) 'metal' is used in a lot of words for modern > inventions or machinery, like maNaNze waaN 'phonograph'; 'radio.' It's in > the word for 'sewing machine,' which I can't recall off the top of my head > right now and in several other words, probably some for farming implements. > I had never thought about the words maNze 'breast' and maNge 'chest' in OP > having a connection in a shared morpheme maN- 'pectoral,' but it certainly > makes sense. My recollection is that is that I was speculating that 'metal' was built up from 'chest/breast', i.e., was a derivative of it. However, I'm not sure if any of that works. I think I missed that Golla paper (and presumably the result of the meeting, too), though I can't recall why. From BARudes at aol.com Mon Nov 3 22:29:24 2003 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 17:29:24 EST Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] Message-ID: I would be somewhat cautious about Siebert's suggestions. For example, Catawba tinde 'bluejay', the form that Siebert recorded, is from earlier tine, the form recorded by Raven I. McDavid, and shows expected partial denasalization of /n/ before an oral vowel. Thus, Catawba tine (> tinde) is unlikely to come from PA *tiintiiwa. More likely, the Catawba and the PA form reflect initia ti(:)n- in imitation of the call of the bluejay, as Pam suggests. Blair From ahartley at d.umn.edu Tue Nov 4 00:38:12 2003 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:38:12 -0600 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Thanks, I appreciate the correction! I should have said that the only > cases I could (vaguely) recall in conjunction with Oneota and other > Mississippian sites were small "ornamental" items. I have the impression > that Old Copper Complex is older, though I'm really fairly ignorant of it > - you don't happen to recall the dates and approximate area, do you? Old Copper Culture is Archaic, a few thousand years BP: my memory fails me, which is embarrassing to a former ranger on Isle Royale, where a good deal of the "old copper" was mined (in native form), as it was also on the Keweenaw Peninsula of Michigan. Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Nov 4 00:46:41 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 17:46:41 -0700 Subject: Affrication Diminutive Marker (Re: butterfly) In-Reply-To: <001501c3a242$4b34d240$3c09ed81@9afl3> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Kathleen Shea wrote: > I've found that it's true that speakers of Ponca tend to use both the > dental-stop variant and the affricated variant of words interchangeably or > recognize only one as the "real" form. However, I have noticed that there's > some productive use of the distinction to create new vocabulary. I have > only one consultant right now, Uncle Parrish Williams--and I really need to > check with more speakers--but he firmly maintains that ttu means 'blue' and > c^c^u means 'green.' I think this usage appears in Howard's book. > The uncomfortable homophony that John mentions between wac^hi'gaag^e 'to > dance' and c^hi 'to have sex with' is often avoided in Ponca by > substitution with the more "polite" term naNthe 'to dance' (literally, > 'to kick'). I think that occurrence of gaaghe itself is an attempt at fixing this homophony. > It's also true that Ponca makes use of affrication of dental stops for a > diminuative effect, or "baby talk" (what John calls "grandmother speech"), > as in "Dha?e'c^hewadhe!" 'You poor thing!' (said to a child) compared to > "Dha?e'thewadhe!" (said to an adult), with the same meaning. This reminds me of the example haNegaNc^he 'dawn' = 'night' + 'like' + 'the (time), when', or 'when it's *a bit* like night'. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Nov 4 00:52:04 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 17:52:04 -0700 Subject: bird. In-Reply-To: <3FA6B5C5.1060900@ucla.edu> Message-ID: > I haven't been following all this as carefully as I should have, but > we're getting into larger territories to the South here. Chickasaw has > tIshkila 'bluejay' (the cap I is nasalized), with an "expressive" form > tIsh tIsh tIsh aachi (characteristically three CVC syllables plus 'say') > which my teacher tells me means 'to make a noise like a bluebird'. I should point out that tiNs^kila is an excellent match for Biloxi tiNskana - close enough to suggest borrowing by Biloxi. My understanding is that confusions in mapping between Native American and English systems are pretty standard for terms like 'bluejay' and 'bluebird'. From munro at ucla.edu Tue Nov 4 00:59:31 2003 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 16:59:31 -0800 Subject: bird. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I mistyped the gloss for the second word -- it should have been 'make a noise like a bluejay' (surely a more reasonable concept). Sorry! Pam Koontz John E wrote: >>I haven't been following all this as carefully as I should have, but >>we're getting into larger territories to the South here. Chickasaw has >>tIshkila 'bluejay' (the cap I is nasalized), with an "expressive" form >>tIsh tIsh tIsh aachi (characteristically three CVC syllables plus 'say') >>which my teacher tells me means 'to make a noise like a bluebird'. >> >> > >I should point out that tiNs^kila is an excellent match for Biloxi >tiNskana - close enough to suggest borrowing by Biloxi. > >My understanding is that confusions in mapping between Native American and >English systems are pretty standard for terms like 'bluejay' and >'bluebird'. > > > > -- Pamela Munro Professor Department of Linguistics UCLA Box 951543 Los Angeles Ca 90095-1543 http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/linguistics/people/munro/munro.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhgarvin at hotmail.com Tue Nov 4 01:26:44 2003 From: hhgarvin at hotmail.com (Henning Garvin) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 19:26:44 -0600 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] Message-ID: >Thanks, I appreciate the correction! I should have said that the only >cases I could (vaguely) recall in conjunction with Oneota and other >Mississippian sites were small "ornamental" items. I have the impression >that Old Copper Complex is older, though I'm really fairly ignorant of it >- you don't happen to recall the dates and approximate area, do you? >>From what I can remember (please don't let one of my former archaeology professors read this:) the old copper complex is dated from 6000-3000 BP, placing it in the archaic period in Midwestern prehistory. I should have also written, however, that the use of copper for utilitarian goods declined in the latter portion of the arcahic. It was used and apparently highly valued in the massive exchange networks that had been established at the end of the arcahic, but mainly in the form of jewelry. So you are absolutely right that the Oneota and Mississippian periods are rather sparse as far as copper goods go. The origin of Oneota was still a matter of debate when I was last up on the issue. Quite heated, if I remember correctly. _________________________________________________________________ >>From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite music is always playing on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE! http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Nov 4 01:32:04 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:32:04 -0700 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] In-Reply-To: <3FA6C00B.1080506@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Alan Hartley wrote: > > It might be interesting to track down the distributions of forms > > like this, 'fire water' (< eau ardent?), and so on. Thanks! > Ojibway > -- > waab-aabik 'tin' (lit. 'white metal') > biiw-aabik 'iron' > miskw-aabik 'copper' (lit. 'red metal') > biiw-aanag 'flint' > > z^ooniyaa 'silver' (< Sp. or Fr.?) > > is^kode-waaboo 'liquor' (lit. 'fire-water') OP ppe(e)de-niN 'fire' + 'water' > z^aaganaas^ 'English' (prob. < Fr. [le]sanglais) OP sagdhas^(iN?), sakkenas^(iN) (the transcription in the Long Expedition notes is a bit hard to decypher) and the term seems to be gone today. I believe Tony Grant looked at this set. > Incidentally, are you all aware of Frank Siebert's (1967) suggestion > that Proto-Algonquian *ooteeweni 'town, village' was borrowed from > Siouan (cf. Da oti)? I think a more likely comparison would be Da o-thuNwa-he 'town' (from memory, not sure I have this right), Da thuN(waN) 'tribe, people', OP ttaNwaN(gdhaN) 'town, clan' (gdhaN probably 'sit down; place round object against'). I think there's a possibility this term may pattern with the 'man's friend' set. I think the similar-looking Algonquian forms mean 'fellow clansman'. The semantic developments in each family tend to distort the relationships of the terms, but my guess is that the original idea was something like 'coresident kinship' and '(male) member of coresident kinship'. I'm not sure which direction the borrowings went and I've noticed similar forms in other families as well, so it might be wrong to assume that the source is either Siouan or Algonquian. However, these strike me as the kind of loan words that might go hand in hand with the sort of Cahokia Mississippian outlier settlements that occur in various Oneota and other contexts around the Midwest (Aztlan, etc.), but I'll freely admit that this is at best a wildly speculative explanation of terms that not everybody agrees are even loan words. > He also suggests that Da s^kec^a 'fisher (Martes pennanti) is from PA > *wec^yeekwa and Da teteni^a, Catawba tinde 'blue jay' from PA *tiintiiwa > (but onomatopoeia?) and notes several other suggestive similarities > (Natl. Mus. Canada Bull. 214 pp. 48-59). Yes, I've consulted that list. I think he mentions some other forms as well. Isn't there a term for 'larch' in there? And he also mentions 'soldier, policeman'. I'm not sure the 'fisher' comparison is particularly convincing. The 'jay' forms certainly look like the general range of onomatopoeic 'jay' forms (taking note of Blair's warning about tinde). From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Nov 4 01:33:15 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:33:15 -0700 Subject: bird. In-Reply-To: <3FA6F9F3.6090005@ucla.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Pamela Munro wrote: > I mistyped the gloss for the second word -- it should have been 'make a > noise like a bluejay' (surely a more reasonable concept). Sorry! OK, but 'bluebird' and 'bluejay' do get confused in various translational contexts. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Nov 4 01:42:51 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:42:51 -0700 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Henning Garvin wrote: > The origin of Oneota was still a matter of debate when I was last up on > the issue. Quite heated, if I remember correctly. As far as I know, Oneota is pretty controversial all around - how it originated, how it might or might not map to historical groups (especially everyone but the Ioway), and occasionally what manifestations are actually Oneota. The last time I was trying seriously to keep track they had (apparently) just decided that they had been far too slack in classifying materials and sites into phases and had started over again - this time apparently without occasionally publishing an overall survey of the system ... It was a lot like trying to find out about Proto-Siouan. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Nov 4 02:07:01 2003 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 20:07:01 -0600 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] Message-ID: John wrote: > Precontact artifacts made from copper occur > with some frequency in the Midwest. As far > as I know they are all ornamental an/or religious, > i.e., not pots or weapons. Anyway, copper is > the most likely original reference of the "metal" > term set. Meteoritic iron is another possibility, > as Bob suggests, and silver and gold were certainly > worked in Mesoamerica, and if any small samples > found their way into the Midwest they may or may not > have been considered as "metal." Plainly various > metals acquired later in trade were plainly > considered so and today the "metal term" is usually > considered to mean "iron." I'd agree with John and Bob that copper is most likely the original reference. That metal was mined, worked and traded pretty extensively throughout the Midwest since late Archaic times-- since about 1000 B.C., if I recall correctly. The most notable source for it was Upper Michigan's Keewenaw Peninsula, which is famous for its outcrops of pure copper. There certainly must have been a name for it, and the maNaNzE term is the only MVS word I know that could possibly be that name. Of course, if that was the only commonly known metal prior to European contact, it is moot whether the term meant "copper" or "metal". I've been doing a project on OP acculturation terms based largely on the Dorsey dictionary. Interestingly, the specific term for every metal except pewter is derived by qualifying it with a color term: silver maNaNzE-ska 'white metal' gold maNaNzEska-zi 'yellow silver' copper maNaNzE-z^ide 'red metal' lead maNaNzE-tu 'blue metal' brass maNaNzE-zi 'yellow metal' iron maNaNzE-sabe 'black metal' pewter maNaNzE-na'skoNdhe 'melting metal' I would guess that the first six categories of metal were distinguished and named in the 18th to early 19th centuries, when the Omahas and Ponkas were in trading contact with whites. (Gold was apparently recognized and defined after and secondarily to silver.) These names tell how to recognize the different metals by sight, which makes sense if you are accepting them passively as elemental substances whose origin and function you don't really understand. Also, they are grammatically simple, and could easily reflect a foreign trader with a limited OP vocabulary attempting to describe his wares to the locals. These words are good Omaha, but syntactically they are also good French. The word for 'pewter', on the other hand, likely was coined in the later 19th century, when the Omahas (?) were settling down on their reservation and attempting to learn the ways of the whites. This word more critically describes something about the origin or function of the metal, and the descriptor used is arcane enough and complex enough to make us almost sure that this term was coined by a native speaker. Rory From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Nov 4 03:29:38 2003 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 21:29:38 -0600 Subject: Affrication Diminutive Marker (Re: butterfly) Message-ID: John wrote: > This reminds me of the example haNegaNc^he > 'dawn' = 'night' + 'like' + 'the (time), when', > or 'when it's *a bit* like night'. I think I'd interpret it using the other version of egaN. (I think we were arguing about these a couple of years ago, along with our infamous =bi/=i disputation.) In Dorsey, e'gaN usually seems to mean 'like that', or 'like (the foregoing)'. But egaN' usually means 'the foregoing having occurred', usually as a conjunction, and often with the sense of 'since', 'because'. Anyway, I've always understood the haNegaN part of that as haN egaN', "night having occurred (and hence being over)", or "night-is-over" = 'dawn'. I've never really understood the c^he part of it though. I gather that it is the positional thE, used to indicate a point in time, transposed into grandmother speech? Rory From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Nov 4 05:51:22 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 21:51:22 -0800 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] Message-ID: > Incidentally, are you all aware of Frank Siebert's (1967) suggestion that > Proto-Algonquian *ooteeweni 'town, village' was borrowed from Siouan (cf. Da > oti)? This strikes me as rather implausible. The root is Proto-Algonquian */o:te:-/ (*o:te:weni is just a nominalization off that), & it seems to have meant 'dwell together as a group'. It's very well integrated into the Algonquian lexicon in that it appears in several different reconstructible collocations, plus it's found throughout the family. So if it was a loan, it really was all the way back at the PA level. If the Siouan cognate is only present in one or two branches of Siouan, this would strongly suggest to me that the borrowing had to have been Algonquian -> Siouan, which is actually the usual direction. > He also suggests that Da s^kec^a 'fisher (Martes pennanti) is from PA > *wec^yeekwa I agree with John that this one isn't real compelling. (Incidentally, the correct PA reconstruction for 'fisher' is */wec^yeeka/.) > and Da teteni^a, Catawba tinde 'blue jay' from PA *tiintiiwa (but > onomatopoeia?) and notes several other suggestive similarities (Natl. Mus. > Canada Bull. 214 pp. 48-59). I think it's extremely risky to use onomatopoeic words as evidence of *anything* in comparative exercises like this, even if all one is trying to do is to track borrowing. best, Dave From rankin at ku.edu Tue Nov 4 15:12:17 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 09:12:17 -0600 Subject: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] Message-ID: Blair's right -- the [tin] root/syllable (or whatever it is) is very widespread and, as John says, clearly onomatopoeic in origin. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 4:29 PM Subject: Re: iron/ metal [and other loans and calques] > I would be somewhat cautious about Siebert's suggestions. For example, > Catawba tinde 'bluejay', the form that Siebert recorded, is from earlier tine, the > form recorded by Raven I. McDavid, and shows expected partial denasalization of > /n/ before an oral vowel. Thus, Catawba tine (> tinde) is unlikely to come > from PA *tiintiiwa. More likely, the Catawba and the PA form reflect initia > ti(:)n- in imitation of the call of the bluejay, as Pam suggests. > > Blair From Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc Tue Nov 4 16:23:23 2003 From: Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc (Louis Garcia) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:23:23 -0600 Subject: Le Sanglais In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Gang: I thought I would interject my two cents here. The Dakota here at Ft. Totten use the term sahda, sometimes sahdas'a for the Metis. The Nakota (I know there are problems using this term) here say sagkda. Years ago when most of the old timers who had gone to school with the Metis were still alive, they hated the metis guts because they were punished more than the Metis. They really drew out the pronunciation in contempt. Thankfully this animosity has changed, and everyone jokes with each other. Years ago I asked James H. Howard about these terms and he said the term was from Gaelic, learned from the British soldiers during the French and Indian wars through the War of 1812. Was he correct? Later, LouieG From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Nov 4 16:45:52 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 09:45:52 -0700 Subject: Affrication Diminutive Marker (Re: butterfly) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Rory M Larson wrote: > I've never really understood the c^he part of it though. I gather that > it is the positional thE, used to indicate a point in time, transposed > into grandmother speech? That's my analysis of it, anyway - the inanimate upright positional article-cum-temporal conjunction. It's that which induces me to see egaN here as 'to be like'. From lcumberl at indiana.edu Tue Nov 4 16:56:04 2003 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 11:56:04 -0500 Subject: Le Sanglais Message-ID: I have often wondered if these terms didn't derive from some variant of sassenax or saghenax (I'm not sure of the exact form), which was a Scottish derogatory term for the British. Linda Quoting Louis Garcia : > > > Hi Gang: > I thought I would interject my two cents here. > The Dakota here at Ft. Totten use the term sahda, sometimes sahdas'a for the > Metis. > The Nakota (I know there are problems using this term) here say sagkda. > Years ago when most of the old timers who had gone to school with the Metis > were still alive, they hated the metis guts because they were punished more > than the Metis. They really drew out the pronunciation in contempt. > Thankfully this animosity has changed, and everyone jokes with each other. > Years ago I asked James H. Howard about these terms and he said the term was > from Gaelic, learned from the British soldiers during the French and Indian > wars through the War of 1812. > Was he correct? > Later, > LouieG > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Nov 4 17:15:50 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:15:50 -0700 Subject: Le Sanglais In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Louis Garcia wrote: > The Dakota here at Ft. Totten use the term sahda, sometimes sahdas'a for > the Metis. The Nakota (I know there are problems using this term) here > say sagkda. I think these follow the usual pattern for PreDa *kR (PS *kr) clusters. > Years ago I asked James H. Howard about these terms and he said the term was > from Gaelic, learned from the British soldiers during the French and Indian > wars through the War of 1812. It sounds as if he must have supposed the term to be related to "sassenach," (sp?) which doesn't seem to be in my Webster's desk dictionary. I think it is a Gaelic plural (maybe a pejorative?) of "Saxon," i.e., Englishman, popularized in English in Scottish historical fiction. The usual view today is that it is ultimately from French les anglais. The le- of les is lost, but the s from it, attached to anglais by liaison, is retained, yielding 's anglais, or sangle, as it were. Of course, the attested forms look like it was actually sangla, and I don't know if this change occurs in Algonquian or not. I think so, because my undestanding is that during the period that anglais was written anglois the oi wasn't pronounced wa, i.e., it was sangle, not *sanglwa. The final -s is silent in French, of course. The -s^a at the end is actually the Algonquian diminutive-pejorative suffix, and is consistent with the attestation of similar forms - with this suffix - in various Algonquian languages. Thus the form is something like 'the contemptible little sangle (or sangla)." It's the same final fricative that produces the s in Sioux < Nadouessioux, "the contemptible little snakes" or, if you disagree with Siebert's assessment and agree with Ives Goddard's original one "the contemptible little non-speakers (of Algonquian)." The Siouan languages borrowed the term from various Algonquian languages or Algonquian-influenced pidgins, and not from French directly. IO ragras^ "raggerash" (attested as a personal name) seems to be from the singular l'anglais, but also via an Algonquian source, as indicated by the final -s^. > Was he correct? If I understand what he meant, no, not at all. From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Tue Nov 4 17:07:35 2003 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:07:35 +0000 Subject: Le Sanglais Message-ID: No they didn't. They derive from French 'les anglais', whch was modified with the addtion of the Ojibwa pejorative -sha (according to Ives Goddard). The term occurs in a number of Algonquian and Siouan languages, and indeed I gave a paper on this very topic, entitled 'French, British and Indian', (in my pre-Microsoft days) at a SSILA meeting at Alberquerque in summer 1995. Anthony Grant >>> lcumberl at indiana.edu 04/11/2003 16:56:04 >>> I have often wondered if these terms didn't derive from some variant of sassenax or saghenax (I'm not sure of the exact form), which was a Scottish derogatory term for the British. Linda Quoting Louis Garcia : > > > Hi Gang: > I thought I would interject my two cents here. > The Dakota here at Ft. Totten use the term sahda, sometimes sahdas'a for the > Metis. > The Nakota (I know there are problems using this term) here say sagkda. > Years ago when most of the old timers who had gone to school with the Metis > were still alive, they hated the metis guts because they were punished more > than the Metis. They really drew out the pronunciation in contempt. > Thankfully this animosity has changed, and everyone jokes with each other. > Years ago I asked James H. Howard about these terms and he said the term was > from Gaelic, learned from the British soldiers during the French and Indian > wars through the War of 1812. > Was he correct? > Later, > LouieG > > > From ahartley at d.umn.edu Tue Nov 4 18:18:09 2003 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 12:18:09 -0600 Subject: Le Sanglais In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > The usual view today is that it is ultimately from French les anglais. > The le- of les is lost, but the s from it, attached to anglais by liaison, > is retained, yielding 's anglais, or sangle, as it were. As with (Fr.) les Otoes >> les Sotoes >> (Eng.) Zotoes (and Eng. a napron >> an apron). From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Nov 4 20:37:48 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 13:37:48 -0700 Subject: Le Sanglais In-Reply-To: <3FA7ED61.3050506@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Alan Hartley wrote: > As with (Fr.) les Otoes >> les Sotoes >> (Eng.) Zotoes > (and Eng. a napron >> an apron). My favorite (French) example is unicorne (taken as un icorne) > icorne > licorne (from l'icorne). This sort of thing happens in Siouan languages, too. If I recall correctly, PS *waNs- (cf. OP maNaNze) > PreDa maze > Da aze (maze taken as first person possessive). I don't recall any reverse examples, with accretion, however, or any cases of resegmentation of a morpheme. From rankin at ku.edu Tue Nov 4 21:12:00 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 15:12:00 -0600 Subject: Le Sanglais Message-ID: > > Years ago I asked James H. Howard about these terms and he said the term was from Gaelic, learned from the British soldiers during the French and Indian wars through the War of 1812. > It sounds as if he must have supposed the term to be related to > "sassenach," (sp?) which doesn't seem to be in my Webster's desk > dictionary. I think it is a Gaelic plural (maybe a pejorative?) of > "Saxon," i.e., Englishman, popularized in English in Scottish historical > fiction. My Random House has Scots Galic Sassunach and Irish Gaelic Sassanach with the meaning John gives above. > The usual view today is that it is ultimately from French les anglais. > The le- of les is lost, but the s from it, attached to anglais by liaison, > is retained, yielding 's anglais, or sangle, as it were. Of course, the > attested forms look like it was actually sangla, and I don't know if this > change occurs in Algonquian or not. I think so, because my undestanding > is that during the period that anglais was written anglois the oi wasn't > pronounced wa, i.e., it was sangle, not *sanglwa. Probably [e:] or [we] by then, but written . But watch out! I ran across a "SASNAK" bar and grill in north Topeka, KS and was sure I'd happened onto a local attestation of "les anglais" in some slightly different phonetic incarnation. I was about to go in and inquire of the manager how they had come upon the name when I suddenly realized what it was when spelled backwards. Sure burst my etymological bubble that day. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Nov 9 09:18:18 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 02:18:18 -0700 Subject: Affricates in Omaha-Ponca (long) Message-ID: Affricated Words in Omaha-Ponca in the Dorsey Texts JE Koontz Essentially, affrication has diminutive force, but this diminution may work to indicate small size, or to mitigate the sense of something possibly offensive, or perhaps to forfend a reference to something dangerous, or to indicate cute behavior, or to speak to children, or as a child, and so on. Affricates also occur in foreign names (and maybe other borrowings), in onomatopoeic forms, and exclamations. Vocabulary + a'gaz^ade ~ a'gaz^aj^e 'take a step, step over' Occurs once affricated, in reference to stepping over a snake. Perhaps placative? + bac^ha'ge 'blunt' Only in a name, He'bac^hage 'Blunt Horns'. + bic^[h]i'c^[h]ide 'to press on and break' Cf. perhaps naNt[h]i'de 'to make a drumming sound in running'. + c^hakki 'slouchy' (per Swetland) Somewhere - maybe from Mark Swetland - I have gotten the impression that 'disheveled' might work also as a gloss. Occurs in a name MaNdhiN'=c^[h]akki, presumably 'Goes along in a disreputable condition'. One of three words in initial ch in Swetland, the other two being c^ha'za (see below) and c^[h]e'dhukki 'Cherokee', probably an English loan. + c^[h]a'za 'slouchy' (per Swetland) Occurs in a name, C^[h]a'zadhiNge, apparently 'Lacking slouchiness'. Might be a Dakotan loan, since c^ha'za has unaccented final a after z, which is more typical of Dakotan forms. OP would tend to have e there. However, the form is attested for OP in Swetland and the comparable form c^[h]akki is also somewhat non-canonical. I don't know of any comparable forms in Dakotan. + c^c^es^ka 'small' Always affricated. Occurs in both c^c^e's^ka=xti and c^c^e's^ka=xc^i 'very small'. + c^hi 'to have sex with; to fuck' (of humans or humanized creatures) Always affricated, perhaps originally to mitigate its force. Cf. Dakotan hu, both from PSi *thu. + c^[h]u 'spit' Two examples, one reduplicated, but affricated. Onomatopoeic? + dhi?a'j^e 'to open (fan) out the tail' (of a bird) Nonce form. + du'ba ~ j^u'ba 'some, a few'; j^u'ba=xc^i 'very little' Both forms fairly common. Dorsey writes j^ as dj, but sometimes a form du'ba occurs. Might be j^u'ba or duu'ba with glottalization to emphasize length? + haN'egaNc^he 'morning' (modern Omaha hN'gac^hi) Probably haN'=egaN=c^he affricated from haN'=egaN=the 'when it is [a bit] like night'. Always affricated. + iNc^haN'ga 'mouse' Always affricated. + iNc^haNgaska 'weasel' < 'mouse' + 'white' Always affricated. I believe I have also encountered iNc^haN'ska somewhere. + iNde' ~ iN'j^e 'face' The affricated form occurs once in the name of a raccoon in a story: IN'j^e xdhe'ghe 'Spotted Face'. I'd have guessed 'striped' or 'barred' more apt than 'spotted'! + i(N)s^ta' ~ is^c^a' 'eye' Once in is^c^asi 'eyeball' < 'eye' + 'seed', in a fixed (offensive) epithet 'big eyeballs' directed at the Rabbit. + iN'thaN ~ iN'c^haN 'now' (especially iN'c^haN=xc^i) Affricated form much more common. + kki'xaxaj^aN 'wren' Always affricated, but occurs in one story only. Possibly onomatopoeic. + maNc^hu' 'grizzly bear' Always affricated. Perhaps a placative form. Cf. Dakotan matho'. + mas^tiN'ge ~ mas^c^iN'ge 'rabbit; Rabbit' The affricated variant is more common in the texts. Dorsey does not use the word 'hare', so we can't tell if 'hare' vs. 'rabbit' is meant. However, most references refer to the Rabbit or a rabbit character (not necessarily the usual folk hero Rabbit) in a story. + naNz^a'z^aj^e 'kicking his legs out' Nonce form. Reduplicated. Cf. a'gaz^ade. + na'=zizij^e 'to sizzle on the fire' Nonce form. + nudaN'haNga ~ nuj^aN'haNga 'war chief, war party leader' Initially accented in vocative. Affricated form not common, but occurs sporadically. + si'j^u=axc^i 'alone, only' Nonce form. + ttac^[h]u'ge 'antelope' Nonce form, confirmed in Fletcher & LaFlesche. + Tta'xti Gi'kkida=bi ~ Tta'=xti Gi'kkij^a=bi 'They Kill His Deer for Him' Name of a monster. Occurs once affricated. + t?e ~ c^?e 'to die'; t?e=dhe ~ c^?e=dhe 'to kill' Sporadically with c^?. Perhaps a mitagatory form. + uc^[h]iz^e 'thicket' Also once, a verbal form wi'uc^[h]iz^e 'they are troublesome to us', which is the wa- 'us' form of udhu'c^[h]iz^e (udhu- cf. Dakotan iyo-). Always affricated. Perhaps a placative form. Os ochiz^e 'a row, an uproar, a riot', Ks oc^hiz^e 'confusion, as many talking at once'. Cf. perhaps Dakotan iyotiyekhiya 'to have troubles' (but that isn't aspirated). + (maN'ze) ukkia'c^[h]ac^[h]a 'iron chain' = 'iron' + the next form + u[']kkia'c^[h]ac^[h]a=xti 'tied in many places' Two nonce forms. Dorsey indicates accent on the third vowel. + wac^higaghe 'to dance' (wadhachigaghe 'you dance') Gaghe perhaps added historically to avoid homophony with c^hi. Cf. Dakotan wac^hi. + waj^e'ppa 'herald' Occurs as a name, reported in Fletcher & LaFlesche, I think, to mean 'herald', i.e., camp crier. + wathi's^ka ~ wac^his^ka 'creek' The affricated form is the more common variant in the texts. + waxta' ~ waxc^a' 'fruit, vegetable' Occurs just once affricated in the phrase waxc^a' z^iN'ga 'small vegetable'. Also used for 'flower', but doesn't occur in Dorsey in that sense. + we'wac^hi 'scalp dance' Nonce derivative of wac^hi in wa-i-, see wac^higaghe. Grammatical Elements + c^[h]abe 'very' This is an adverbial auxiliary that inserts between the verb and the plural/proximate marker, e.g., thaN' c^ha'ba=i 'they were numerous', ppi'=b=az^i c^ha'ba=i 'they are very bad', aNwaN'xpani c^ha'be 'I am very poor'. + =di ~ =j^i 'in, at' Occurs once as =j^i in idha'naxida=j^i 'at a sheltered place' (vs. idha'naxide=adi, also attested). + =s^te ~ =xc^e 'soever' Nonce form a'=naska=xc^e=xc^i 'of some size or another'. A'=naska is 'what/some size'. + =thaN ~ =c^haN EXTENT Nonce form ga'=c^haN=ma 'the ones that high' + =the ~ =c^he 'the (inanimate upright), the(time), when' See haN'egaNc^he. Also in ga'=c^he=gaN 'thus', etc. + =tte ~ =c^c^e IRREALIS Sporadically affricated, e.g., e'be xtaN'=dhe=c^c^e 'who will love me?' (Rabbit being cute), wic^hi=c^c^e 'I will have sex with you'. + =xti ~ =xc^i 'very, true' The =xc^i variant is fairly common, but tends to occur with certain forms, e.g., this non-exahustive list: dha'dhuha=xc^i 'almost' j^u'ba=xc^i 'a very little' kkaN'ge=xc^i 'very near' ppahaN'ga=xc^i 'the very first' ppa'ze=xc^i 'very late in the evening' ppez^i'=xc^i 'very bad' ppi'=az^i=xc^i 'very bad' naN'z^iNs^ke=xc^i 'scarcely' ni=a'z^i=xc^i 'not at all in pain' uma'kka=xc^i 'very easy (in mind, behavior), i.e., placid, sanguine' uxdhe'=xc^i 'very soon' wiN'a=xc^i '(just) one' z^iN'ga=xc^i 'very small' Also, PRO=xc^i 'only PRO', e.g., wi'=xc^i 'I only'. Also not affricated. Also, PRO=(s^)na=xc^i 'only PRO', e.g., wi'=naN=xc^i 'only me' or e'=na=xc^i (or e=na'=xc^i) 'only one, alone, him only'. Sometimes not affricated. Also, COLOR=xc^i 'very COLOR' (maybe 'rather COLOR'?), e.g., ska'=xc^i 'very white', ttu'=xc^i 'very green'. Unaffricated examples of these occur. Also in two kinterm truncated diminutives, saN'=z^iN=xc^i 'dear little brother' < isaN'ga '(his/her) younger brother' + z^iN'ga 'little' + xc^i, and si'=z^iN=xc^i 'dear little child' < ini'si 'offspring' + ... and untruncated (i)ttu's^pa=z^iN=xc^i '(one's) dear little grandchild' < ittu's^pa 'one's grandchild' + ... Example of "Grandmother" or "Baby" Speech E=a'c^haN= xc^i c^?e'=wadhadhe=c^c^e=iN=the How on earth very will you kill them perhaps JOD 90:28.18 (Grandmother to Rabbit) This would more normally be pronounced: E=a'thaN=xti t?e'=wadhadhe=tte=iN=the There may be lexical differences as well, since 'How on earth" is usually rendered as a'=xt(i)=aN. Dorsey glosses this 'how possibly'. 'How on earth' is my rendition of that. Foreign Names + C^[h]eghappa = C^hegha=(pabu ?) 'Beats the Drum' (Dakota) + J^o 'Joe (Joseph LaFlesche)' English (originally French) + MaNac^[h]eba = Mawac^hepa (said to be Yankton) + Mic^[h]axpe Z^iNga = Mic^haxpi (C^histina?) 'Little Star' (Da) + MuNj^e XaN'j^e 'Big Bear' (IO) Onomatopoeia + See c^hu 'to spit' above. + See kki'xaxaj^aN 'wren' above. + c^hu 'sound of hot iron inserted in wound' + c^?u 'sound of bullet' + c^hu 'noise of ratling' + c^hi c^hi c^hi 'call of chipmunk' Exclamations + hiNc^[h]e 'surprising' Perhaps a variant of the common hiNda(khe) 'let's see'. + i'c^[h]ic^[h]i 'ouch, it's hot' + idhiac^? idhiac^?e 'exclamation of wonder' John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Mon Nov 10 11:50:30 2003 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:50:30 -0000 Subject: Le Sanglais In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oddly enough I've heard the word recently used by a Lakota speaker in Standing Rock to refer to Ojibway (and Cree I think) people on her own reservation. Possibly the association is with Canadians and hence British On 4 Nov 2003 at 17:07, Anthony Grant wrote: Date sent: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 17:07:35 +0000 Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: "Anthony Grant" To: Subject: RE: Le Sanglais > No they didn't. They derive from French 'les anglais', whch was > modified with the addtion of the Ojibwa pejorative -sha (according to > Ives Goddard). The term occurs in a number of Algonquian and Siouan > languages, and indeed I gave a paper on this very topic, entitled > 'French, British and Indian', (in my pre-Microsoft days) at a SSILA > meeting at Alberquerque in summer 1995. > > Anthony Grant > > >>> lcumberl at indiana.edu 04/11/2003 16:56:04 >>> > I have often wondered if these terms didn't derive from some variant of > sassenax > or saghenax (I'm not sure of the exact form), which was a Scottish > derogatory > term for the British. > > Linda > > Quoting Louis Garcia : > > > > > > > Hi Gang: > > I thought I would interject my two cents here. > > The Dakota here at Ft. Totten use the term sahda, sometimes sahdas'a > for the > > Metis. > > The Nakota (I know there are problems using this term) here say > sagkda. > > Years ago when most of the old timers who had gone to school with the > Metis > > were still alive, they hated the metis guts because they were > punished more > > than the Metis. They really drew out the pronunciation in contempt. > > Thankfully this animosity has changed, and everyone jokes with each > other. > > Years ago I asked James H. Howard about these terms and he said the > term was > > from Gaelic, learned from the British soldiers during the French and > Indian > > wars through the War of 1812. > > Was he correct? > > Later, > > LouieG > > > > > > > From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Mon Nov 10 11:57:04 2003 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:57:04 -0000 Subject: Le Sanglais In-Reply-To: <3FA7ED61.3050506@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Also orange from Persian Narenj and Adder from nadder, by which name, meaning I believe twisting, there is still a river in England Bruce On 4 Nov 2003 at 12:18, Alan Hartley wrote: Date sent: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 12:18:09 -0600 Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: Alan Hartley To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Le Sanglais > Koontz John E wrote: > > > The usual view today is that it is ultimately from French les anglais. > > The le- of les is lost, but the s from it, attached to anglais by liaison, > > is retained, yielding 's anglais, or sangle, as it were. > > As with (Fr.) les Otoes >> les Sotoes >> (Eng.) Zotoes > (and Eng. a napron >> an apron). > > From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Mon Nov 10 12:53:22 2003 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 12:53:22 +0000 Subject: Le Sanglais Message-ID: I believe German still has Natter for 'viper'. Anthony >>> bi1 at soas.ac.uk 10/11/2003 11:57:04 >>> Also orange from Persian Narenj and Adder from nadder, by which name, meaning I believe twisting, there is still a river in England Bruce On 4 Nov 2003 at 12:18, Alan Hartley wrote: Date sent: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 12:18:09 -0600 Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: Alan Hartley To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Le Sanglais > Koontz John E wrote: > > > The usual view today is that it is ultimately from French les anglais. > > The le- of les is lost, but the s from it, attached to anglais by liaison, > > is retained, yielding 's anglais, or sangle, as it were. > > As with (Fr.) les Otoes >> les Sotoes >> (Eng.) Zotoes > (and Eng. a napron >> an apron). > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Nov 10 17:11:21 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:11:21 -0700 Subject: Le Sanglais In-Reply-To: <3FAF7B86.28312.A4545@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 bi1 at soas.ac.uk wrote: > Oddly enough I've heard the word recently used by a Lakota speaker in > Standing Rock to refer to Ojibway (and Cree I think) people on her own > reservation. Possibly the association is with Canadians and hence > British. I think I've seen the term defined as 'Canadian' somewhere. Maybe Buechel? The British > Canadian progression is a natural one, of course. From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Nov 13 14:22:47 2003 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:22:47 -0000 Subject: Affrication Diminutive Marker (Re: butterfly) In-Reply-To: <001501c3a242$4b34d240$3c09ed81@9afl3> Message-ID: Cree does something similar I believe turning -t- into -c- for diminutive uses, though I can't think of an example not having my Cree books here. Bruce On 3 Nov 2003 at 13:40, Kathleen Shea wrote: Date sent: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 13:40:09 -0600 Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: "Kathleen Shea" To: Subject: Re: Affrication Diminutive Marker (Re: butterfly) > I've found that it's true that speakers of Ponca tend to use both the > dental-stop variant and the affricated variant of words interchangeably or > recognize only one as the "real" form. > From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Thu Nov 13 15:29:13 2003 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (Heike =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=F6deker?=) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:29:13 +0100 Subject: Affrication Diminutive Marker (Re: butterfly) In-Reply-To: <3FB393B7.7478.156AB05@localhost> Message-ID: At 14:22 13.11.03 +0000, bi1 at soas.ac.uk wrote: >Cree does something similar I believe turning -t- into -c- for diminutive >uses, though I can't think of an example not having my Cree books >here. atim "dog" -> acim "doggie", though this is only a relic of a more productive grade system (which is probably what should be phenomenologically compared to the Siouan system) as outlined by Proulx in one of his first articles in IJAL (1984 IIRC) on Comparative Algic. Best, Heike From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Nov 13 16:37:37 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 09:37:37 -0700 Subject: Affrication Diminutive Marker (Re: butterfly) In-Reply-To: <3FB393B7.7478.156AB05@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 bi1 at soas.ac.uk wrote: > Cree does something similar I believe turning -t- into -c- for > diminutive uses, though I can't think of an example not having my Cree > books here. I think this is a fairly common pattern for diminutives, world wide, and, perhaps connected, for female as opposed to male speech. The vague reflection of the last in OP is the frequency of this as a marker of the speech of "little old ladies" (or perhaps better, as a marker of baby talk), the classic examples being Grandmother speaking to Rabbit. JEK From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Fri Nov 14 14:16:49 2003 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:16:49 -0000 Subject: Le Sanglais In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not a nother one. Reminds me of the poem 'Better to marry a short girl, than never to marry a tall' Bruce On 10 Nov 2003 at 12:53, Anthony Grant wrote: Date sent: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 12:53:22 +0000 Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: "Anthony Grant" To: Subject: Re: Le Sanglais > I believe German still has Natter for 'viper'. > > Anthony > > >>> bi1 at soas.ac.uk 10/11/2003 11:57:04 >>> > Also orange from Persian Narenj and Adder from nadder, by which > name, meaning I believe twisting, there is still a river in England > Bruce > On 4 Nov 2003 at 12:18, Alan Hartley wrote: > > Date sent: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 12:18:09 -0600 > Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > From: Alan Hartley > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Le Sanglais > > > Koontz John E wrote: > > > > > The usual view today is that it is ultimately from French les > anglais. > > > The le- of les is lost, but the s from it, attached to anglais by > liaison, > > > is retained, yielding 's anglais, or sangle, as it were. > > > > As with (Fr.) les Otoes >> les Sotoes >> (Eng.) Zotoes > > (and Eng. a napron >> an apron). > > > > > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Nov 16 18:18:57 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 11:18:57 -0700 Subject: Borrowed Names in Omaha-Ponca Message-ID: It occured to me that the non-Dhegihanists on the list might have given up in horror before they got to the last few lines of this post! These instances of affricates are all names, mostly Dakotan, that have been partially adapted to Omaha-Ponca. Note that these names are borrowed in the sense of occurring in OP text. They are not actually being used as OP names, though presumably such a degree of borrowing also occurs. The case of J^o 'Joe, Joseph' is a bit special. Certain French names do circulate among the Omaha, at least, but these are not the bearer's Omaha names, but versions of their English (originally French) names, e.g., Me'(e)dhi 'Mary, Marie', Dhuza'dhi 'Rosalie', Zuze't(e?) 'Susette', J^o' 'Joe', "Frank" (details of pronunciation unknown) 'Frank, Francis, Francois', Sasu' (regularly used for Frank, maybe from Francois, though it superficially resembles Sanssouci rather better). The first of these I've heard myself. The second is attested in Fletcher & LaFlesche. The rest are from Dorsey's texts. Possibly also in this group would be Bac^c^i' 'Peter Sarpy', if that was a rendition of something like Liberte', which is gross speculation. This last might also be an Omaha-Ponca or Ioway-Otoe word, though I haven't been able to identify it. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 02:18:18 -0700 (MST) From: Koontz John E ... > Foreign Names > + C^[h]eghappa = C^hegha=(pabu ?) 'Beats the Drum' (Dakota) > + J^o 'Joe (Joseph LaFlesche)' English (originally French) > + MaNac^[h]eba = Mawac^hepa (said to be Yankton) > + Mic^[h]axpe Z^iNga = Mic^haxpi (C^histina?) 'Little Star' (Da) > + MuNj^e XaN'j^e 'Big Bear' (IO) ... Addendum: C^he'gha is cognate to OP ne'(e)ghe 'pot'; I have no idea what the -ppa element represents, though the name is glossed 'beats the drum'. The usual modern OP word for drum is kku'(u)ge 'box, drum', though this word appears only in the sense of 'box' in Dorsey's texts, which have for 'drum', variously, dhe'(e)ghe gakku', ne'(e)ghe xakku' (misprint for next? - x written with q in Dorsey), ne'(e)ghe gakku', and ne'(e)ghigakku'. Dhe'(e)ghe is a doublet of ne'(e)ghe. Both are glossed 'kettle' in the Dorsey texts, though ne'(e)ghe appears also in the character name Tte-ne'ghe 'Buffalo Bladder', and Swetland glosses ne'(e)ghe as 'water vessel; bladder; bucket; pail; pot'. He doesn't list dhe'(e)ghe. It's possible that the change in 'drum' words reflects a change in 'drum' technology. I seem to recall hearing that the large drum favored today is a comparatively recent thing. I've discussed the 'pot' word before and suggested that the initial correspondence Da c^h : OP n (~ dh) reflects Proto-Mississippi Valley *py > Da pc^ ~ c^h : OP bdh (verb) ~ n (noun) ~ dh. I notice that MaNac^heba has intervocalic w elided. This happens in OP words like ttaNwaNgdhaN and I htink in Dakotan as well, in faster speech. I don't know what the name might be. The OP word for 'star' is miNkka'?e from Proto-Dhegiha *miNkka'x?e. That suggests PSi *wiNhka'x?e, whereas Dakota mic^ha'xpi suggests PSi *wiNhka'xpi. It is possible that -pi here is a reflex of the plural *=pi. Another set with =pi like this that's been mentioned on the list is 'cloud'. As far as the PDh form, simply adding -e to *wiNhka'x, the residuum of the stem, shouldn't produce *x?e, so the morphology here is obscure to me. The form of *wiNhka'x is atypical for a Siouan stem, if not compound, derived, or borrowed, though it would be going to far to say it was impossible. Since the word for 'little' is translated into OP, this name is along the lines of something like 'Little Et-wal' as an English rendition of French Petite Etoile. That is, it's partially, but not wholely, translated, with the untranslated part somewhat adapted in phonology. The IO name is not translated, but taken over intact. It would come out something like Wasabe TtaNga in OP. Neither element in IO is cognate with anything common in Omaha-Ponca or Dakota, though obscure reflexes of both elements exist Clearly the process of rendering "foreign" names into OP was a somewhat complex one, with a rich range of possibilities. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Nov 17 16:33:53 2003 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 10:33:53 -0600 Subject: Borrowed Names in Omaha-Ponca Message-ID: > Dhe'(e)ghe is a doublet of ne'(e)ghe. Both are glossed 'kettle' in the > Dorsey texts, though ne'(e)ghe appears also in the character name > Tte-ne'ghe 'Buffalo Bladder', and Swetland glosses ne'(e)ghe as 'water > vessel; bladder; bucket; pail; pot'. He doesn't list dhe'(e)ghe. The Dorsey dictionary distinguishes these forms as dialectal within OP: dhe'(e)ghe is Ponka, and ne'(e)ghe is Omaha. Our Omaha speakers use nE'ghe. (I'm not sure about length, but they were pretty firm in correcting me when I was trying to say ne'ghe; the first vowel is distinct from the standard /e/, and I hear it as /E/ as in 'neck'. Possibly the /e/ vs. /E/ distinction is equivalent to short vs. long /e/ though.) Stabler & Swetland are specifically Omaha, not OP like Dorsey, so they should only have the ne'(e)ghe form. Kathleen, how is it in Ponka? Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Nov 17 17:35:42 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 10:35:42 -0700 Subject: Borrowed Names in Omaha-Ponca In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Rory M Larson wrote: > The Dorsey dictionary [the NAA ms.] distinguishes these forms as > dialectal within OP: dhe'(e)ghe is Ponka, and ne'(e)ghe is Omaha. It should be possible to determine if the distribution in Dorsey matches the sources of his examples. I'll try to do that. > Our Omaha speakers use nE'ghe. (I'm not sure about length, but they > were pretty firm in correcting me when I was trying to say ne'ghe; the > first vowel is distinct from the standard /e/, and I hear it as /E/ as > in 'neck'. Possibly the /e/ vs. /E/ distinction is equivalent to short > vs. long /e/ though.) It might be a contextual effect of gh. Uvular and back velar fricatives tend to lower adjacent vowels. > Stabler & Swetland are specifically Omaha, not OP like Dorsey, so they > should only have the ne'(e)ghe form. Kathleen, how is it in Ponka? Yes, but I should hasten to indicate that I really didn't mean this to be taken as a defect in any sense. UmonNhoN Iye of Elizabeth Stabler is clearly not comprehensive, and I don't think the editors - Mark and Mrs. Stabler - ever claimed that. All I meant was the form wasn't attested there. From kdshea at ku.edu Tue Nov 18 04:14:26 2003 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:14:26 -0600 Subject: Borrowed Names in Omaha-Ponca Message-ID: I haven't kept up with the latest Siouan list postings, but I'll reply to Rory's question. I have /ne(e)'ghe/ 'bladder, bucket,' with /n/. In my first recording, I wrote [ne?ghe] (with a rising-falling contour pitch over the first vowel, which would indicate a long vowel) 'bladder' and [ne'ghe] 'bucket.' However, after asking again later, I was told that the two words have the same pronunciation. I assume that animal bladders were probably used as buckets, to haul liquids, at one time, so this is probably one word. I tend to think the stressed vowel is short in this case. We've commented before on the interchangeability of /dh/ and /n/ in some Omaha-Ponca words, and I think that it must happen fairly often. I've noticed it in /gasaN'dhiN/ 'tomorrow,' /is^tiN'nikhe/ 'trickster, monkey,' and some others, where Ponca will have one form of the word and Omaha the other. (I'm giving the Ponca pronunciation, as far as I know, here.) Kathy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 11:35 AM Subject: Re: Borrowed Names in Omaha-Ponca > On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Rory M Larson wrote: > > The Dorsey dictionary [the NAA ms.] distinguishes these forms as > > dialectal within OP: dhe'(e)ghe is Ponka, and ne'(e)ghe is Omaha. > > It should be possible to determine if the distribution in Dorsey matches > the sources of his examples. I'll try to do that. > > > Our Omaha speakers use nE'ghe. (I'm not sure about length, but they > > were pretty firm in correcting me when I was trying to say ne'ghe; the > > first vowel is distinct from the standard /e/, and I hear it as /E/ as > > in 'neck'. Possibly the /e/ vs. /E/ distinction is equivalent to short > > vs. long /e/ though.) > > It might be a contextual effect of gh. Uvular and back velar fricatives > tend to lower adjacent vowels. > > > Stabler & Swetland are specifically Omaha, not OP like Dorsey, so they > > should only have the ne'(e)ghe form. Kathleen, how is it in Ponka? > > Yes, but I should hasten to indicate that I really didn't mean this to be > taken as a defect in any sense. UmonNhoN Iye of Elizabeth Stabler is > clearly not comprehensive, and I don't think the editors - Mark and Mrs. > Stabler - ever claimed that. All I meant was the form wasn't attested > there. > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Nov 18 08:00:44 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 01:00:44 -0700 Subject: Borrowed Names in Omaha-Ponca In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Rory M Larson wrote: > > The Dorsey dictionary [the NAA ms.] distinguishes these forms as > > dialectal within OP: dhe'(e)ghe is Ponka, and ne'(e)ghe is Omaha. > > It should be possible to determine if the distribution in Dorsey matches > the sources of his examples. I'll try to do that. I've always wanted to do something like this, given that Dorsey makes it possible! For 'kettle': PpadhiNnappaz^i (Ponca) ne'ghe 211.9, 211.14, 226.4, 227.8, 231.17, 328.10, 438.19 Big Elk (Omaha) ne'ghe 338.12 George Miller (Omaha) ne'ghe 560.12 Frank LaFlesche (Omaha) ne'ghe 247.2 dhe'ghe 247.14 Joseph LaFlesche (Omaha) dhe'ghe 331.7, 331.11 TteukkaNha (Omaha) u'haN 254.5 ANphaNttaNga (= Big Elk) (Omaha) U'haNttaNga 'Big Kettle' (a name) 427.14 Note also uga's^ka 'to hang a kettle over a fire', bas^aNdha 'to push over a kettle and spill it', in which the reference to a kettle seems to be implicit. 'Earthen pot' is given once as maNdhiN'kka ne'ghe. So, the only users of dhe'ghe in the sense of 'kettle' are Joseph LaFlesche and (once of two tokens) Francis LaFlesche. Note that Dorsey did consider the LaFlesche family to be of Ponca origin, a sore bone of contention with at least Francis, who may have considered that it endangered family entitlements to severaltized lands. However, several Ponca sources use ne'ghe extensively and none use dhe'ghe. Some Omahas use u'haN (cf. Da wo'haN) 'something to cook in'. We don't really know from the contexts or glosses if any of the terms have specific references as to size or shape. No one is found using more than one form, but it's not clear that this is not chance. > For 'drum' NudaN'agha (Ponca) dhe'ghe gakku' 54.1, 54.6, 369.1, 369.3, 380.6 PpadhiNnappaz^i (Ponca) ne'ghe gakku' 445.4 Hexaga Sabe John Nichols (Ponca) ne'ghigakku 633.10 UhaNgeza^N (Ponca) ne'ghigakku 640.7 ANphaNttaNga (Omaha) ne'ghe gakku' 471.13 S^aNgeska (Omaha) ne'ghe xakku' (presumably an editorial error for ne'ghe gakku') 298.2 ne'ghe gakku' 298.4 George Miller (Omaha) ne'ghe gakku' 601.3, 601.11, 601.17, 602.1 With 'drum' all Omahas and one Ponca use ne'ghe gakku', while two other Poncas use ne'ghigakku and one uses dhe'ghe gakku'. Unfortunately, we don't know what this man used for 'kettle', and we don't know what the LaFlesche's used for 'drum'. > For 'bladder' TteukkaNha (Omaha) ttene'eghe 254.10, 255.8, 256.4, 259.11 Tteu'kkaNha's useage for '(buffalo) bladder' is consistent with his usage for 'kettle'. === In summary, while Dorsey's contention that dhe'ghe is Ponca and ne'ghe is Omaha is not inconsistent with his understanding of matters, it is clearly a significant oversimplification. Ne'ghe and ne'ghe gakku' or ne'ghigakku are the majority forms. A few individuals, who may or may not all be of Ponca origin, say dhe'ghe or dhe'ghe gakku'. Incidentally, LaFlesche gives t.se'xe in forms for pot, kettle, and drum in Osage. In theory this should have been dse'xe, representing ce'ghe. It's tempting to wonder if he could hear a difference between reflexes of *R and *t. In any event, he effectively writes *R here like *ht (tt). However, he writes it as ds in dse' 'lake' (Os ce', OP ne') and idse'gi 'uncle' (Os ice'ki, OP ine'gi). From goodtracks at GBRonline.com Thu Nov 20 20:39:39 2003 From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 14:39:39 -0600 Subject: Sac & Fox term Message-ID: Does anyone know if the term "Anishnabe" is the proper name that the Sac & Fox use to term themselves and their language? If this term is Ojibwe, Potawatomi, or another, what term do the Sac/ Sauk call themselves. jgt From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Nov 20 20:55:18 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:55:18 -0800 Subject: Sac & Fox term Message-ID: As far as I know, only Ojibwes and Potawatomis use that "Anishnabe" term. The most common name the Sauks use for themselves is /0a:ki:wa/ ('0' = theta, 'th' as in 'thin'), though alternates of /o0a:ki:wa/ and /a0a:ki:wa/ are also attested. David > Does anyone know if the term "Anishnabe" is the proper name that the Sac & > Fox use to term themselves and their language? If this term is Ojibwe, > Potawatomi, or another, what term do the Sac/Sauk call themselves. > jgt > > From hhgarvin at hotmail.com Thu Nov 20 21:42:53 2003 From: hhgarvin at hotmail.com (Henning Garvin) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 15:42:53 -0600 Subject: Sac & Fox term Message-ID: >>From my Ojibwe class I know 'Anishinaabe' is the term they (Ojibwe or Anishinaabe) use for themselves. 'Anishinaabemo' refers to their language. I called a relative of mine who is from Tama. His mother is Mesquakie and he is a native speaker of that language. He said they, in Iowa, call themselves 'Meskuaaki' which he roughly translated as people of the red earth. (I'm not sure on the spelling of this word, I used the standard Ojibwe method of spelling for this word.) He told me he was pretty sure that the Sac and Fox from Oklahoma refer to themselves as Zaagi, which roughly means people of the yellow earth. Again, I'm not entirely sure I have given the best spelling as I have used Ojibwe orthographical conventions. Henning Garvin Linguistic research Ho-Chunk Nation Language Division >From: "David Costa" >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: Sac & Fox term >Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:55:18 -0800 > >As far as I know, only Ojibwes and Potawatomis use that "Anishnabe" term. >The most common name the Sauks use for themselves is /0a:ki:wa/ ('0' = >theta, 'th' as in 'thin'), though alternates of /o0a:ki:wa/ and /a0a:ki:wa/ >are also attested. > >David > > > > Does anyone know if the term "Anishnabe" is the proper name that the Sac >& > > Fox use to term themselves and their language? If this term is Ojibwe, > > Potawatomi, or another, what term do the Sac/Sauk call themselves. > > jgt > > > > _________________________________________________________________ online games and music with a high-speed Internet connection! Prices start at less than $1 a day average. https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.) From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Nov 20 22:03:30 2003 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 14:03:30 -0800 Subject: Sac & Fox term Message-ID: The Ojibwes call the Sauks /ozaagii/, but in a vowel-deleting dialect this would be /zaagii/. The Miamis call them /saakia/ and Meskwakies use /(a)sa:ki:wa/, but Sauk (and Kickapoo) changed /s/ to /0/ (theta). Hence the /0a:ki:wa/. Anyway, this name is discussed in the 'Sauk' chapter of the Handbook (volume 15, page 654). Dave > From my Ojibwe class I know 'Anishinaabe' is the term they (Ojibwe or > Anishinaabe) use for themselves. 'Anishinaabemo' refers to their language. > > I called a relative of mine who is from Tama. His mother is Mesquakie and > he is a native speaker of that language. He said they, in Iowa, call > themselves 'Meskuaaki' which he roughly translated as people of the red > earth. (I'm not sure on the spelling of this word, I used the standard > Ojibwe method of spelling for this word.) > > He told me he was pretty sure that the Sac and Fox from Oklahoma refer to > themselves as Zaagi, which roughly means people of the yellow earth. Again, > I'm not entirely sure I have given the best spelling as I have used Ojibwe > orthographical conventions. > > > Henning Garvin > Linguistic research > Ho-Chunk Nation Language Division > > > > >>From: "David Costa" >>Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >>To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >>Subject: Re: Sac & Fox term >>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:55:18 -0800 >> >>As far as I know, only Ojibwes and Potawatomis use that "Anishnabe" term. >>The most common name the Sauks use for themselves is /0a:ki:wa/ ('0' = >>theta, 'th' as in 'thin'), though alternates of /o0a:ki:wa/ and /a0a:ki:wa/ >>are also attested. >> >>David >> >> >>> Does anyone know if the term "Anishnabe" is the proper name that the Sac & >>> Fox use to term themselves and their language? If this term is Ojibwe, >>> Potawatomi, or another, what term do the Sac/Sauk call themselves. jgt > > > > From rankin at ku.edu Sat Nov 22 23:20:11 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 17:20:11 -0600 Subject: Bresnan WI/HC papers. Message-ID: While Googling the name of William Lipkind, I noticed that Joan Bresnan has a couple of recent papers that include discussion of some WI/HC data. One is on Optimality Theory and syntax and the other is on pidginization. She used Lipkind's grammar as a source, so the work may be "explanatorily adequate" without being "observationally adequate". Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Nov 24 17:03:58 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:03:58 -0700 Subject: Bresnan WI/HC papers. In-Reply-To: <002101c3b14f$403b0b90$d1b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, R. Rankin wrote: > While Googling the name of William Lipkind, I noticed that Joan Bresnan > has a couple of recent papers that include discussion of some WI/HC > data. One is on Optimality Theory and syntax and the other is on > pidginization. She used Lipkind's grammar as a source, so the work may > be "explanatorily adequate" without being "observationally adequate". I wonder in what respect Winnebago could be considered to provide data on pidginization? From rankin at ku.edu Mon Nov 24 17:16:30 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 11:16:30 -0600 Subject: Bresnan WI/HC papers. Message-ID: I haven't actually read either paper. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 11:03 AM Subject: Re: Bresnan WI/HC papers. > On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, R. Rankin wrote: > > While Googling the name of William Lipkind, I noticed that Joan Bresnan > > has a couple of recent papers that include discussion of some WI/HC > > data. One is on Optimality Theory and syntax and the other is on > > pidginization. She used Lipkind's grammar as a source, so the work may > > be "explanatorily adequate" without being "observationally adequate". > > I wonder in what respect Winnebago could be considered to provide data on > pidginization? > > From rankin at ku.edu Mon Nov 24 19:20:49 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:20:49 -0600 Subject: On-line data. Message-ID: I have a flyer from "Evolution Publishing", the publishers of the American Language Reprint series, advertising FREE access to their on-line database of (older) Native American vocabularies until the first of the year. After Dec. 31st it won't be free, and they're advertising a fairly steep access rate after that. The website is . I have not checked this out and do not know anything about it except what is in the ad. I know there should be 3 Tutelo/Saponi and a couple of Catawba vocabularies in it, but maybe not much else Siouan. FWIW Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BARudes at aol.com Tue Nov 25 02:41:54 2003 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 21:41:54 EST Subject: On-line data. Message-ID: I checked the Evolution Publishing website. As part of a beta-test, Evolution Publishing is allowing access to most features of its site for free until the end of Decemeber. Access includes its search engine that allows one to find native equivalents for English words. However, it does not allow access to the full vocabularies. I did a couple of searches and found data for Catawba (Barton 1798, Gallatin [Miller]) 1836), Woccon (Lawson 1709), and Tutelo (Hale 1883, Sapir 1913, Frachtenburg 1913). Blair From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Nov 25 02:41:31 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:41:31 -0700 Subject: Lipkind (fwd) Message-ID: This, from Bob Rankin, reposted with his permission, was the forerunner of the Lipkind comment. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:59:58 -0600 From: R. Rankin To: Koontz John E , Kathleen Shea Subject: Re: Lipkind What the NAA says about Lipkind "post-Winnebago". Bob LIPKIND, WILLIAM (1904-1974), Papers After he had studied law, history, and English literature at Columbia University, William Lipkind became a student of Franz Boas and Ruth F. Benedict. In the summer of 1936, Boas sent him to Winnebago, Nebraska, to study the Winnebago language and review Paul Radin's work on Winnebago.The work provided data for his doctoral dissertation, published as Winnebago Grammar in 1945. Lipkind's next field experience was in Brazil, where he spent 1937-1939 with the Carajaacute. During the same period, he investigated neighboring peoples, including the Cayapoacute. >>From this came his article on the Carajaacute for the Handbook of South American Indians, Bureau of American Ethnology Bulletin 143, volume 3, 1948, and an article on Carajaacute cosmology in the Journal of American Folklore in 1940. Following a brief teaching career at Ohio State University, Lipkind worked in Europe for the federal government in Europe. After returning to the United States in 1947, his activity in anthropology was largely teaching. His publications were mostly children's literature. Lipkind's papers are largely limited to field material. They are, however, incomplete, for some remains in private hands, and his Carajaacute sound recordings (of which the archives has poor copies) are at Indiana University. A few pieces of correspondence relating to his article for the Handbook of South American Indians are with Julian H. Steward. The Winnebago material includes a vocabulary that may be by the nineteenth-century missionary William T. Findley. DATES: Mostly 1936-1939 QUANTITY: ca. 1.5 linear meters (ca. 5 linear feet) ARRANGEMENT: (1) Carajaacute material (notebooks, correspondence and drafts for the article in the Handbook of South American Indians, photographs, sound recordings, 1937-1939; (2) Cayapoacute notebook; (3) Winnebago material (notebooks, dictionaries); (4) Mandan dictionary, n.d.; (5) miscellany FINDING AID: Folder list QUANTITY: 3 prints From rankin at ku.edu Fri Nov 28 15:36:29 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 09:36:29 -0600 Subject: Dances with Wolves. Message-ID: I see that the PAX network is running this movie tonight at 8pm eastern, 7 central. Don't know about mountain or pacific. For those of us wasicun's who don't get a chance to hear much spoken Lakota, I think most of the "elders" in the movie who have large speaking parts seem to be pretty fluent. I'm told that the bit players were mostly Cree, since it was filmed in Canada, and they had to learn their Lakota lines like Kevin Costner. I don't think anyone has ever figured out what the "Pawnee" speakers in the movie were actually speaking. Bob From goodtracks at GBRonline.com Fri Nov 28 16:10:01 2003 From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:10:01 -0600 Subject: Dances with Wolves. Message-ID: Bob: It's been a while, but if I recall, Wes Studi was speaking in his own Cherokee language, not Pawnee. I dont recall hearing any Pawnee spoken at all from the "Pawnees" in the Dances movie. It's quite a long time now since I've heard any Pawnee spoken in any movie. Perhaps Doug Parks would have some idea of various movies which include Pari speaking lines. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Rankin" To: Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 9:36 AM Subject: Dances with Wolves. > I see that the PAX network is running this movie > tonight at 8pm eastern, 7 central. Don't know > about mountain or pacific. > > For those of us wasicun's who don't get a chance > to hear much spoken Lakota, I think most of the > "elders" in the movie who have large speaking > parts seem to be pretty fluent. I'm told that the > bit players were mostly Cree, since it was filmed > in Canada, and they had to learn their Lakota > lines like Kevin Costner. I don't think anyone > has ever figured out what the "Pawnee" speakers in > the movie were actually speaking. > > Bob > > > > From munro at ucla.edu Fri Nov 28 17:33:33 2003 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 09:33:33 -0800 Subject: Dances with Wolves. In-Reply-To: <000f01c3b5c5$77dc58e0$e2b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: My first Lakhota teacher, the late Hannah Lefthand Bull Fixico, worked on the editing of this movie with Kevin Costner (who she adored -- he was very polite and nice to her, and she loved wearing her DWW cast jacket). In fact, I believe only the old chief's wife (Doris Leader Charge) is in fact a fluent native speaker (so listen to her!) -- as I understand it she was responsible for coaching the other cast members. Pam R. Rankin wrote: >I see that the PAX network is running this movie >tonight at 8pm eastern, 7 central. Don't know >about mountain or pacific. > >For those of us wasicun's who don't get a chance >to hear much spoken Lakota, I think most of the >"elders" in the movie who have large speaking >parts seem to be pretty fluent. I'm told that the >bit players were mostly Cree, since it was filmed >in Canada, and they had to learn their Lakota >lines like Kevin Costner. I don't think anyone >has ever figured out what the "Pawnee" speakers in >the movie were actually speaking. > >Bob > > > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Nov 28 19:27:50 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 12:27:50 -0700 Subject: Dances with Wolves. In-Reply-To: <3FC786ED.3000702@ucla.edu> Message-ID: Rodney Grant (http://www.rodneygrant.com/home.htm), the actor who plays "Wind in His Hair," not exactly one of the major roles, but much more than a bit part, is an Omaha, although, as far as I know, not fluent in Omaha-Ponca, being from the post-WWII generations. I could be wrong, but this character's name "Wind in His Hair" sounds like one of author Michael Blake's Neo-Rousseauian Blakisms, along with "Dances with Wolves" itself, of course. A number of names he simply borrowed (in translation) or maybe analogized from various sources. Anyway, while I'm far from a specialist in Plains area personal names, my suspicion is that a more likely Omaha-Ponca version of the concept might be more aptly translated "Disheveled." John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz > R. Rankin wrote: >... I'm told that the bit players were mostly Cree, since it was filmed >in Canada, and they had to learn their Lakota lines like Kevin Costner. From are2 at buffalo.edu Sat Nov 29 02:48:07 2003 From: are2 at buffalo.edu (are2 at buffalo.edu) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:48:07 -0500 Subject: Dances with Wolves- Location In-Reply-To: <3FC786ED.3000702@ucla.edu> Message-ID: Hey! I'm in Pierre, SD and there are signs all over indicating that Dances with WOlves was filmed here. My man and the internet confirm that the bulk of the filming was done in SD. His Auntie (a fluent speaker, but she didn't have a speaking role) was in it and even the white soldiers were locals. So, I don't know about this Cree connection. -Ardis From rankin at ku.edu Sat Nov 29 15:32:51 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 09:32:51 -0600 Subject: Dances with Wolves- Location Message-ID: It was on NPR back when the movie was released and they interviewed some of the Crees (Incl. Graham Green, I think) involved. It's not uncommon for a film to be shot in a variety of different places that purport to be a single locale though. Bob > Hey! I'm in Pierre, SD and there are signs all over indicating that > Dances with WOlves was filmed here. My man and the internet confirm > that the bulk of the filming was done in SD. His Auntie (a fluent > speaker, but she didn't have a speaking role) was in it and even the > white soldiers were locals. So, I don't know about this Cree > connection. > -Ardis > > From jkyle at ku.edu Sat Nov 29 19:26:48 2003 From: jkyle at ku.edu (John Kyle) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 13:26:48 -0600 Subject: Dances with Wolves. Message-ID: I had the chance to watch "Dances with Wolves" when it first came out on video (early 90's) with a 72 year old Lakhota speaker. In addition to dozing off through out the movie he commented that the actors talked 'liked children'. I imagine this is due to the actors not being native speakers of Lakhota. Another movie with an authentic Lakhota speaker is "Thunderheart" with Val Kilmer (also filmed in South Dakota). Unfortunately, the Lakhota speaker, Chief Ted Thin Elk, was hit by a car and died several months after the movie was released. It's not a bad movie and is worth seeing if only for the Lakhota. John Kyle jkyle at ku.edu ************************************** "We need an energy bill that encourages consumption." - Pres. Bush, Trenton, N.J., Sept. 23, 2002 From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Nov 29 22:21:34 2003 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:21:34 -0700 Subject: 'town'/'friend' (was Re: iron/ metal ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A while back David Costa questioned my suggestion that PS *htuNwaN 'clan, town' might underlie PA *ooteeweni 'town', or at least represent a loan from the same unknown source, hypothetically a language associated with "Mississippian" cultural phenomenon. He argued: "This strikes me as rather implausible. The root is Proto-Algonquian */o:te:-/ (*o:te:weni is just a nominalization off that), & it seems to have meant 'dwell together as a group'. It's very well integrated into the Algonquian lexicon in that it appears in several different reconstructible collocations, plus it's found throughout the family. So if it was a loan, it really was all the way back at the PA level. If the Siouan cognate is only present in one or two branches of Siouan, this would strongly suggest to me that the borrowing had to have been Algonquian -> Siouan, which is actually the usual direction." I thought I owed to him to explain my reasoning a bit more fully, but it's taken me a while to get around to this. 'clan, town' Siouan Te othuN'wahe 'cluster of houses, village, town; Washington, DC' -thuNwaN (~ -thuN ?) suffix on names of Dakota subtribes thuNwaN'=yec^a 'to dwell at a place' Sa othuN'we 'cluster of houses or tents, village, town' thuNwaN'=yaN 'to make a village, to dwell somewhere' -thuNwaN ~ -thuN suffix on names of Dakota subtribes Note that terms for 'clan' are along the lines of (thi)os^paye, oyate, owe. I'm not sure if the -thuN variant of the suffix occurs in Teton usage. It's probably essentially a fast speech form in any event. OP ttaN'waN 'town' (ttaN'aN with rearticulation in fast speech.) ttaN'waN=gdhaN 'tribe, clan' Ks ttaN'maN, ttaN'maN=laN 'town, camp, village' Os ttaN'waN 'town' ttaN'waN=laN 'gens' Qu ttoN'waN, ttoN' 'town' o'ttaN=knaN 'tribe, nation' The -gdhaN, -laN, -knaN are all probably positionals, based on the 'round or compact' root *raN. K- may be orientive in the context, cf. itti=...gdhaN 'to place in the belt'. The gdhaN is actually an inflected element, i.e., this is ttaN'waN=...gdhaN, cf. OP ttaN'waN=iNgdhaN 'we constitute a nation for him'. Bi taNyaN', taaN', taN' 'town, village' Biloxi probably had aspiration, and this t is not marked for "non-aspiration," so it may be aspirated. Dorsey specifically compares the Biloxi form with Dakotan and Dhegiha forms. The combination of Siouan attestations suggests something like PS *htuN'waN, perhaps *htuNwaNh, but the final -he in Teton, the -y- of Biloxi, the first syllable vowel in Biloxi, and the second syllable vowel in Santee are all perhaps a bit problematic or irregular, though nothing a Siouanist couldn't comfortably attribute to analogy or unknown suffixing patterns. The aN ~ e looks like nominal ablaut, with -a perhaps by analogy from -e, since -a ~ -e is more common. The -he might be a positional, and so on. The root is also a bit unusual in form, but has its parallels. In short, this is a regular set for any but the obsessively picky. It is not universally attested, of course, but is is presumably replaced by innovations in where it is not attested. Winnebago and Chiwere, for example, use for 'town' forms based on 'to dwell' + a positional, i.e., Wi c^iinaN'k, IO c^hi'naN, both suggesting earlier *hti-raNk- My knowledge of the Algonquian forms is limited to what appears in George Aubin's now somewhat dated summary, p. 118. He gives PA *ooteeweni sg., *ooteewenali pl. 'town, village'. This appears regularly in Fox ooteeweni/ooteewenani and Shawnee hoteewe/hoteewena, but undergoes metathesis of -we- and -na- in Ojibwe ooteenaw/ooteenawan, Cree ooteenaw/ ooteenawah, Penobscot o'tene/o'tenal, and Natick otan/???. These are the only forms he sites though there may well be others. I believe here that *-i is the singular inanimate suffix, and *-ali the associated plural. Granted that apart from the metathesis there is nothing irregular here, I know that loans can often look much like inherited material, if borrowed between rather similar languages and we do have here an essentially "central" distribution, apart from the Penobscot and Natick forms, and these last share the metathesis that appears in all forms north and east of Ojibwe. In short, one could see a loan here without too much difficulty, the metathesis occurring in Ojibwe and being propagated beyond that. The oo- initial syllable is also interesting, given that o- is a Siouan locative prefix, appearing in, for example, Dakotan and Quapaw forms with this root. We're comparing a Siouan model, not necessarily one of the presently attested forms, along the lines of *o-htuN'waN with Algonquian *ooteewen-. In other directions we find that (Muskogean) Choctaw has "ta.maha" (from Byington, with a, for underdotted a - short a?) 'town'. This also occurs in the Mobilian trade language in essentially identical form. As far as I know, the usual Muskogean terms for 'town' are something like okla, e.g., Chickasaw okla. I don't know if Alabama oola is related, since it also has okla 'friend', and the 'friend' term seems to be the basis of 'town'. However, my data are restricted to Choctaw, Chickasaw, and Alabama. The CSD also suggests investigating further (Caddoan) Arikara ituu'nu. I had noticed an element which I think was spelled tuh in various Arikara clan names at some point, but my source for this is still apparently boxed from my series of moves over the last few years. I don't want to attach any real emphasis to the Caddoan forms since I don't have any real knowledge of how relevant forms work across Caddoan. The possibly correlating friend terms: Te kho'la 'friend (of male)' lakhota ~ lakhol= 'allies' Sa kho'da 'friend (of male)' dakhota ~ dakhol= 'allies' The difficulty of associating the friend and ally terms has been discussed in the past. It is possible that -la and -da in 'friend' are connected with the diminutive Te =la and Sa =daN ~ =na. OP iNdakkudha (perhaps a Dakota loan) 'friend' (archaic) Ks kko'ya 'friend (of male?)' Os ihko'dha ~ hko'dha ~ hko'wa (recent)'friend (of male?)' Qu kko'da ~ kho'ta 'friend (of male?)' The OP term in common use today is khage' 'friend (of male)', perhaps related to similar terms khagesaNga 'younger brother' and khage' 'fourth son'. IO itha'ro (~ ithadu ~ ithara) 'friend' (*i-hta- Ps3-ALIENABLE-) Wi hic^ako'ro 'friend' (hi-c^a- < *i-hta- Ps3-ALIENABLE-) The Dakotan forms suggest *hkoRa ~ *hkota, while the Dhegiha ones seem to suggest *hkora. The Winnebago might be *kro, but is probably *hkoro, and the Ioway-Otoe version may be a worn down version of the same or *(hko)Ro or *(hko)to. In short, the Siouan forms, though more or less universal in Mississippi Valley, do not correspond regularly between the lowest level of subfamilies, though they are regular within each of these (unless we count Winnebago-Chiwere as a lowest level subfamily). The Algonquian comparison here, again from Aubin, p. 114, is *nii0kaan-a 'my fellow clansman (man speaking)' (0 for theta), for which Aubin supplies Ojibwe niikkaaneen? 'my brother (man speaking)', niikkaaniss 'my brother (man speaking), my friend (man speaking)', Potawatomi nikkane ("probably"), Menomini neehkaah 'my brother (man speaking)', neehkaan 'my fellow participant in a rite', Fox niihkaana 'my friend (man speaking)'. As I understand it, in these forms final -a is the animate singular, nii- is the first person possessive, and the -ss or -iss in the one Ojibwe form is the diminutive. Again, it is possible that there are further attestations beyond what is cited here. This may be comparable to Choctaw "kana" (from Byington, perhaps representing kaana, since the first a is not dotted) 'friend', and also Chickasaw inkaNna? 'friend'. This might be a good place to set out a short list of Muskogean (and Mobilian) forms: Gloss town nation, people friend Mobilian tamaha ??? mokula Choctaw ta.maha okla kana Chickasaw okla imaaokla? inkaNna? okloshi Alabama oola ??? okla It appears that these concepts are related, etymologically, in Muskogean, and that the tamaha and kana forms are somewhat intrusive in the domain. The ? here is a final glottal, which I believe is a nominalizing suffix here. From rankin at ku.edu Sun Nov 30 22:38:30 2003 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 16:38:30 -0600 Subject: Fw: Delivery Notification: Delivery has timed out and failed (fwd) Message-ID: Sorry if anybody else tried to reach any of us at KU. The IMAP server here was hopelessly screwed up most of last week. I could neither send nor receive mail much of the time. They said it was "too much spam". I suspect that, as usual, it was "too many tenured geeks" who learned their trade on VAX, IBM, etc. mainframes and have never "upgraded" that knowledge. :-) The Ioway-Otoe form depends on whether *tp metathesizes to *pt > hd like *tk > kt, etc. I didn't have applicable forms that would tell me if *tp and *tk behave alike. I suppose 'drink' would be a place to start verifying. Bob > Somehow this failed to get through, though I think others since have. > Maybe the server is down and the others are still retrying. > > This report relates to a message you sent with the following header fields: > > Message-id: > Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:11:31 -0700 (MST) > From: Koontz John E > To: "R. Rankin" > Subject: Re: Groin > > Your message is being returned; it has been enqueued and undeliverable for > 1 day to the following recipients: > > Recipient address: kdshea at KU.EDU > Reason: unable to deliver this message after 1 day > Recipient address: rankin at KU.EDU > Reason: unable to deliver this message after 1 day > > The actual message I tried to send: > > > So, IO should have *ht, leading to hd ~ hj^, depending on the following > > vowel, and Wi should have c^VwV, depending on the following vowel. Given > > that that vowel is *i, > ihj^i and > ic^iwi. However, I haven't spotted > > either form. If there's a form outside MVS, this could go in the CSD. > > Correction - IO would have *tw, or > itwi. So, it looks like the IO form > in the 'soft' set is wrong. That set in the CSD is probably questionable, > at least as far as the IO form. > > JEK > > Actually, I guess it would be *idwi, in the usual way of writing IO > unaspirated stops as voiced. Anyway, it doesn't seem to exist. >