From goodtracks at GBRonline.com Thu Apr 1 02:58:07 2004 From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 20:58:07 -0600 Subject: St. Louis - Pain Court; Ndeck and Other ppahV forms. Message-ID: For what it is worth, I decided to take the discussion to a friend from Southern France who has done some cultural studies and journeys to the various tribal communities of the Southern and Northern Plains in the last few years. This is what he has to say: ----- Original Message ----- From: Lionel Lacaze To: Jimm GoodTracks Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 12:14 PM Subject: Re: Fw: St. Louis? Ho Jimm ! This sounds very interesting ! Me too I have doubts concerning the "short of bread" meaning of "Pain Court". It would rather mean the place where they make small breads , or the place where their bread is "short" because of lack of baking powder (I don't have the English for "levure" which is what you put in bread to make it come big as it is goes through oven). Altough I had already heard about St Louis being called red head town in reference to William Clark hair, "Pain Court" is new to me. (As well as Misère ?) ("Misère" is great poverty, I don't think the English "Misery" stands for great poverty ?). Anyway to the French in Canada or southern Louisiana would sure have been the western frontier in the 1600's and 1700's and life for white people at these places was sure difficult and "misérable" ("very poor", "wandering life"). Lionell: > Here's a discussion of a French name applied to Saint Louis, Missouri, which > was founded by the French in about 1775. See if you get anything out of it. > Jimm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Koontz John E" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 3:56 PM > Subject: Re: St. Louis - Pain Court > > > On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, [windows-1252] "Alfred W. Tüting" wrote: > > > Paroisse de l?Immaculée Conception de Pain Court > > > > C?est la misère extrême des ancêtres qui a donné le jour au nom de Pain > > Court. Les missionnaires disaient : « Je m?en vais dans la mission du > > pain court », ou tout simplement : « Je m?en vais à Pain Court. » Et le > > nom prit racine pour toujours... << > > > > It seems that the French speaking author doesn't have problems to quote > > the term _pain court_ in the sense of smth like "short of bread" > > (although it doesn't look like a real grammatical French rendering, > > then). > > Comments on St. Louis as "Pain court" generally pair this with a comment > on Ste. Genevieve as "Misere," suggesting a parallel. It would be > interesting to know what the first source is that suggests this. I agree > that taking something like "a short loaf" as symbolic of want or perhaps > just meagerness seems more consistent with French syntax than other > possibilities. > > In any event, any explanation of the name as applied to St. Louis has to > account for its use in three North American placenames dating to French > settlements in the area, and probably also to its use in two street names > in France. It seems clear that some metaphorical meaning might be > involved. > > It is also possible that the name might reflect the French nickname or dit > name of an early resident, though it seems more likely that Paincort as a > nickname reflects the same metaphor as the placenames than that the > placenames derive from the nickname. This seems likely because of the > number of instances of Paincourt as a placename and the tendency to > explain it in ways that imply shortages of food rather than as a nickname. > > Finally, if the sense is taken simply as short bread without too much > emphasis on what that might mean, it could represent a none-too-relevant > play on an unrelated phrase in another language with a similar sound. > This seems less likely because the name does reappear as a placename, and > because Native American versions of St. Louis seem to be derived from the > French and not vice versa. If we include Allan Taylor's Gros Ventre case, > the Native American versions include not just borrowings of the sound > sequence by calques of the sense. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Apr 2 12:49:11 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 07:49:11 -0500 Subject: Pain Court = Pin(s) Court(s) (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 06:17:31 -0500 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu To: sioan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Pain Court = Pin(s) Court(s) Picard seems to agree with my earlier suggestion to the Siouanist discussion group that the place name is a miswritten Pin(s) Court(s) (the singular and the plural forms are pronounced the same). ----- Forwarded message from MARC PICARD ----- Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 22:04:11 -0500 From: MARC PICARD Reply-To: American Name Society Subject: Re: Place names To: ANS-L at LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Well, I think we can quickly eliminate the possibility that shortbread was involved in the process :-) I think this is simply a typo or spelling mistake for Pin Court. For example, there's a municipality near Montreal by the name of Pincourt which, according to Rayburn's Dictionary of Canadian Place Names, takes its name from 'the short pines (pins courts) in nearby woods'. ----- End forwarded message ----- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: unnamed Type: text/enriched Size: 770 bytes Desc: URL: From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Apr 2 16:22:35 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 11:22:35 -0500 Subject: Tired of Pain Court yet? Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 11:10:57 -0500 From: MARC PICARD Reply-To: American Name Society To: ANS-L at LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: Re: Place names On Vendredi, avril 2, 2004, at 06:11 am, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Yes, the pin court or pins courts was the suggestion that i made > to the Siouan discussion list. No one seemed to like it, but it was the > only thing that made sense. I'll restate that position to that list. Marc Picard dixit: Actually, both of us may have been a little hasty in our conclusion. What I've found is that there's a place in Ontario called Pain Court (formerly Paincourt) and that, lo and behold, there are six places in France by the name of Paincourt or Le Paincourt (as you can check on the IGN website). So what we have here may simply be a case of the transposition of a French placename. Etymologically, Paincourt has almost surely nothing to do with 'bread' and 'short'. The -court part is a very common placename ending from Old French cort 'farm'. The pain- part is probably a person's name if one is to judge by the frequency of such structures as found in Dauzat and Rostaing's Dictionnaire étymologique des noms de lieux en France (which, unfortunately, doesn't include hamlets like Paincourt). Marc Picard -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1166 bytes Desc: URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Apr 2 23:42:49 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 17:42:49 -0600 Subject: Tired of Pain Court yet? Message-ID: > On Vendredi, avril 2, 2004, at 06:11 am, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > >> Yes, the pin court or pins courts was the suggestion that i made >> to the Siouan discussion list. No one seemed to like it, but it was the >> only thing that made sense. I'll restate that position to that list. Michael-- As the one who started the thread, I'd like to apologize for not having commented on your suggestion, which certainly is very sensible. It wasn't that I didn't like it; it's just that there were so many reasonable possibilities that were raised then without anything being a clincher that I didn't know which way to go. Some thoughts: 1. How is the St. Louis area fixed for pines? There are lots of pines in Canada, and there is a famous band of pine forest across some of the old Southern states parallel with the Gulf, but I usually think of the Missouri/Illinois area to be a deciduous, oak-hickory region. 2. Would the French have made and perpetuated such an error? They are certainly fluent in their own language, and quite literate. If it was originally Pins Courts rather than Pain Court, wouldn't someone at least have left record complaining of the distortion? After all, "Short Pines" really does make a lot more sense than "Short Bread", so I would expect a shift in interpretation to go in the other direction if anything. 3. What about the other places named Pain Court in France and Canada? Isn't it likely that the name was simply imported by a homesick French or Canadian? In that case, the name would probably have nothing to do with St. Louis, regardless of its original etymology. Locally, the name would be meaningless. 4. What about the punning humor mentioned for the voyageurs? Perhaps the original name was from a local Indian language, and the French humorously recast its sound sequence into their own language as Pain Court. In this case, Pain Court might have been parsed whole, in reference to some other Pain Court location, or it could have been parsed to its parts to mean "short bread". In the latter case, the pun might have been purely fanciful, or it could have meant something to them. These people were presumably very used to dealing with direct translations from Indian languages, which were likely ungrammatical in French. Given that they had 'a court de pain' to mean 'short of bread', is it really too much of a stretch to interpret 'pain court' to mean the same thing if cast as a translation from "Indian"? I think I could take it that way in English either as "short bread" or as "bread short" if I understood it as a joke on the twisted syntax of a foreign language. In this case, it would fit in with the tradition of it meaning "short of bread", without having to get there through straight-faced French grammar. In any case, thanks for your suggestion and other comments! They have been very enlightening. Best, Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Apr 3 07:39:57 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 00:39:57 -0700 Subject: Tired of Pain Court yet? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Yes, the pin court or pins courts was the suggestion that i made > to the Siouan discussion list. No one seemed to like it, but it was the > only thing that made sense. I'll restate that position to that list. Well, I thought it was quite interesting lexically, though I gather from previous comments that pain and pin are not always homophonous in Canadian French and that there are, as Michael had observed, and I had also discovered, precedents for Paincourt as a placename. I am not clear whether there are any precedents for Pin Court. It does seem clear that pain court does not mean 'short(age) of bread' per se, but rather 'short loaf' in one dimension or another - length or height. Apparently it could also mean 'shortbread' in the more technical sense. I am not at all convinced that in any of these forms it is not perceived as a metaphor for poverty or hard or primitive living. Suggestions along these lines appear in both English and French. The question has been raised as to whether there is any evidence of pains courts in the neighboorhood of St. Louis. By chance I noticed a while ago a description of the trees of St. Louis in the colonial period. Houck's The Spanish Regime in Missouri, Vol. 1, p 49, contains a document dealing with the "Delivery of the Fort of El Principe de Asturias [near St. Louis], ..." March 19, 1769, whicbindicates that "The woods of which the stockade is composed are liar, ash, and yncomis." Footnotes explain liar as a variant of French liard 'poplar', here referring to cottonwood, and indicate that yncomis may be ynconis, 'the name of a wood not in the dictionaries'. Personally, I suspect that yncomis is a misreading and/or mangling of inconnus 'unknown(s)'. Liar(d) wood appears to figure prominently in the construction of the fort. There are references to pines and cedars on the Upper Missouri. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Apr 3 11:46:25 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 06:46:25 -0500 Subject: Tired of Pain Court yet? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Fri, 2 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > Yes, the pin court or pins courts was the suggestion that i made > > to the Siouan discussion list. No one seemed to like it, but it was the > > only thing that made sense. I'll restate that position to that list. > > Well, I thought it was quite interesting lexically, though I gather from > previous comments that pain and pin are not always homophonous in Canadian > French and that there are, as Michael had observed, No, no. I've been misrepresented!! Where's my lawyer?! No, "pain" and "pin" ARE homophonous in Canadian French and French in general. In Canada speakers will either say [pe~] (tilde over the e) for both of them, or [pI~] for both of them. Alles klar? and I had also > discovered, precedents for Paincourt as a placename. I am not clear > whether there are any precedents for Pin Court. > There was a note from Marc Picard forwarded to the Siouan list yesterday that showed a place name near Montreal for Pin(s) Court(s). > It does seem clear that pain court does not mean 'short(age) of bread' per > se, but rather 'short loaf' in one dimension or another - length or > height. Apparently it could also mean 'shortbread' in the more technical > sense. I am not at all convinced that in any of these forms it is not > perceived as a metaphor for poverty or hard or primitive living. > Suggestions along these lines appear in both English and French. > Right. If we are talking about "short bread," then the term was either a toponym brought from Quebec/Ontario and transplanted in St. Louis or a nickname for some yahoo. Both of these are big IF's. > The question has been raised as to whether there is any evidence of pains > courts in the neighboorhood of St. Louis. > > By chance I noticed a while ago a description of the trees of St. Louis in > the colonial period. Houck's The Spanish Regime in Missouri, Vol. 1, p > 49, contains a document dealing with the "Delivery of the Fort of El > Principe de Asturias [near St. Louis], ..." March 19, 1769, whicbindicates > that "The woods of which the stockade is composed are liar, ash, and > yncomis." Footnotes explain liar as a variant of French liard 'poplar', > here referring to cottonwood, and indicate that yncomis may be ynconis, > 'the name of a wood not in the dictionaries'. Personally, I suspect that > yncomis is a misreading and/or mangling of inconnus 'unknown(s)'. > Liar(d) wood appears to figure prominently in the construction of the > fort. > > There are references to pines and cedars on the Upper Missouri. > > > There are six species of "evergreens" native to Indiana and I suspect that some of those are native to Missouri. Michael From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Apr 3 12:11:44 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 07:11:44 -0500 Subject: Tired of Pain Court yet? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > > > > > On Vendredi, avril 2, 2004, at 06:11 am, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > > >> Yes, the pin court or pins courts was the suggestion that i made > >> to the Siouan discussion list. No one seemed to like it, but it was the > >> only thing that made sense. I'll restate that position to that list. > > Michael-- As the one who started the thread, I'd like to > apologize for not having commented on your suggestion, > which certainly is very sensible. Oh. No problem at all, Rory. None. It wasn't that I > didn't like it; it's just that there were so many > reasonable possibilities that were raised then without > anything being a clincher that I didn't know which way > to go. "Pain Court" is among the best in onomastic doozies. It's right up there. Some thoughts: > > 1. How is the St. Louis area fixed for pines? There > are lots of pines in Canada, and there is a famous > band of pine forest across some of the old Southern > states parallel with the Gulf, but I usually think > of the Missouri/Illinois area to be a deciduous, > oak-hickory region. As I mentioned a few minutes ago, there are several native "evergreen" species in Indiana. What I would imagine for St. Louis is that either the area had/has a relict white pine (Pinus albus) or a relict eastern hemlock (Tsuga something-or-other)--or both, as they often coexist--from the last continental glaciation. Eastern cedar (Juniperus virginiana) is very common in these parts, although, from my experience inside the French primary sources, the coureurs de bois, the missionaries, etc. call this tree "cedre" and not "pin". So, sure, there is a good possibility that some sort of "pine" grew along the Mississippi at St. Louis. Definitely. These relict species of "evergreens" are often seen on bluffs overlooking river bottoms. > > 2. Would the French have made and perpetuated such an > error? Sure. They are certainly fluent in their own > language, and quite literate. Literacy was hit and miss in the 18th century among the French in the west. One of the best interpreters to the Miami didn't know how read or write. If it was originally > Pins Courts rather than Pain Court, wouldn't someone > at least have left record complaining of the distortion? > Not necessarily. Once place names get established, they are often invincible. Not wanting to open up another can of worms, but let me add that the French called Miami villages at the headwaters of the Maumee "Kiskakon" (which is a name for an Ottawa band). The Ottawa never lived there and the name was used before the Ottawa were even established lower down the Maumee near present-day Toledo. Plus, the Ottawa and the Miami were at each others' throats throughout most of the French regime. So, here we are with "Kiskakon" as the French name for the Miami villages. What a mess! I have better examples of illogical place names getting fixed in stone, but at the moment I can't recall them. They'll come, probably right after I log off. After all, "Short Pines" really does make a lot more > sense than "Short Bread", so I would expect a shift > in interpretation to go in the other direction if > anything. > > 3. What about the other places named Pain Court in France > and Canada? Isn't it likely that the name was simply > imported by a homesick French or Canadian? If the thing was actually "Pain Court," yep, that's probably what happened, or else it was an nickname for some fella. In that > case, the name would probably have nothing to do with > St. Louis, regardless of its original etymology. > Locally, the name would be meaningless. > > 4. What about the punning humor mentioned for the > voyageurs? Perhaps the original name was from > a local Indian language, and the French humorously > recast its sound sequence into their own language > as Pain Court. That's possible. This is apparently what happen (another can of worms!) with "Calumet River"...except, and this is interesting...there is no evidence the French ever used "calumet" as the name for that stream. It looks like early English speakers took a native term and turned into to "Calumet". In this case, Pain Court might have > been parsed whole, in reference to some other Pain > Court location, or it could have been parsed to its > parts to mean "short bread". In the latter case, > the pun might have been purely fanciful, or it > could have meant something to them. These people > were presumably very used to dealing with direct > translations from Indian languages, which were > likely ungrammatical in French. Given that they > had 'a court de pain' to mean 'short of bread', > is it really too much of a stretch to interpret > 'pain court' to mean the same thing if cast as > a translation from "Indian"? It's very possible. Too bad we can't rewind history....but then again... I think I could > take it that way in English either as "short > bread" or as "bread short" if I understood it > as a joke on the twisted syntax of a foreign > language. In this case, it would fit in with > the tradition of it meaning "short of bread", > without having to get there through straight-faced > French grammar. Well, I don't know. I couldn't commit to *that* very readily. > > In any case, thanks for your suggestion and other > comments! They have been very enlightening. And murky and muddy, to boot! Michael > > Best, > Rory > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sat Apr 3 15:42:12 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 09:42:12 -0600 Subject: Tired of Pain Court yet? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Michael Mccafferty wrote: > As I mentioned a few minutes ago, there are several native "evergreen" > species in Indiana. What I would imagine for St. Louis is that either the > area had/has a relict white pine (Pinus albus) or a relict eastern hemlock > (Tsuga something-or-other) No eastern hemlock (Tsuga canadensis) or eastern white pine (Pinus strobus) in Missouri. There is some shortleaf pine (P. echinata)--yeah, I know, it has the word "short" in it!--in the the SE half of the state, but not in the St. Louis vicinity (http://plants.usda.gov/). P. echinata: Noms vernaculaires: pin jaune ; pin doux ; short leaf yellow pine ; southern yellow pine ; pin à feuilles courtes (http://membres.lycos.fr/helardot/page_pins/pinus_echinata.htm) Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Apr 3 20:12:52 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 13:12:52 -0700 Subject: Tired of Pain Court yet? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > No, no. I've been misrepresented!! Where's my lawyer?! Vacationing in St. Louis. > No, "pain" and "pin" ARE homophonous in Canadian French and French > in general. In Canada speakers will either say [pe~] (tilde > over the e) for both of them, or [pI~] for both of them. OK, I had missed that when the pain went lower, the pin also shifted. > There was a note from Marc Picard forwarded to the Siouan list yesterday > that showed a place name near Montreal for Pin(s) Court(s). I am sorry. I took his second post as implying that he had misremembered Pain Court as Pin Court and was now advocating Paincourt, albeit believing that -court referred to a farm. > > The question has been raised as to whether there is any evidence of pains > > courts in the neighboorhood of St. Louis. Oops - typo on my part for pins courts. > There are six species of "evergreens" native to Indiana and I suspect that > some of those are native to Missouri. I couldn't relocate it last night, but at least one comment on forts in Houck or Nasatir mentions a tower built of cedar. It did occur to me after I signed off that what I needed was an ecological survey of St. Louis and that for this it would suffice to have an typical archaeological investigation of the American Bottom (in the midst of which, I note without further comment, St. Louis may be found). Fortunately, I happen have a copy of American Bottom Archaeology, ed. by Chas. J Bareis and Jas. W. Porter, U. of Ill. Press, 1984. The essay on 'The Environmental Setting' by White, Johannessen, Cross and Kelly does list the vegetation, classified according to 9 zones. The investigation here is specifically concerned with the Illinois shore, but I imagine it covers the Missouri shore fairly well, too. Not to keep you in suspense, no evergreens are mentioned, and the lowlands zones feature ash (including green ash), black walnut, boxelder, cottonwood, elm, hackberry, hickory, honey locust, mulberry, oak (including pin oak), pecan, persimmon, silver maple, sycamore, and willow (including black willow). The slopes and upland zones feature ash, basswood, black walnut, butternut, cherry, dogwood, elder, elm, hackberry, hazel, hickory, mulberry, oak, pawpaw, persimmon, and sugar maple. The area is characterized by a climax forest of black oak, white oak, and hickory. There are, however, very few places, if any, in North America, where evergreens do not occur, even in hardwood forests, so that this account does not permit us to conclude that there was not a clump of shortish pines near the future site of St. Louis back when it was founded. Knowing the early settlers, or at least their descendents, these were promptly cut down to build either towers of forts, or, perhaps, outhouses. In spite of this possibility, it does not appear that pines or other evergreens are prominent components of the local vegetation. There don't seem to have been stands of them everywhere, unlike Colorado, where our state motto is "Pins courts toujours!" Evergreen and Conifer, for example, might both well have been named Pinscourts. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Apr 3 20:26:29 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 13:26:29 -0700 Subject: Cedar (Re: Tired of Pain Court yet?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Eastern cedar (Juniperus virginiana) is very common in these parts, > although, from my experience inside the French primary sources, the > coureurs de bois, the missionaries, etc. call this tree "cedre" and not > "pin". For what it's worth, the principle, maybe only, Omaha-Ponca term for evergreen is ma(a)'si. Fletcher & LaFlesche gloss it as 'red cedar'. This reflects Proto-Mississippi Valley *Wa(a)'zi (with "funny w"). From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Sat Apr 3 21:21:41 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 15:21:41 -0600 Subject: Pain Court => St. Louis? Message-ID: Alright, one more question on this subject: Does anyone have a sense of when the site was still Pain Court, and when the name shifted to St. Louis? Was this shift at the time of St. Louis' foundation in 1764, or was it not until later? Thanks for all the input! Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Apr 3 21:29:16 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 14:29:16 -0700 Subject: Sarpy Message-ID: One minor mystery in the Omaha and Ponca texts is that the trader Sarpy is referred to as Bac^c^i'. Dorsey says that this is Peter G. Sarpy, and he seems to have been a trader for whom Joseph La Flesche worked when he was a young man. The Sarpy family were prominent traders on the lower Missouri in the early days. The Houck and Nasatir collections mention Bernal (Beral) Sarpy, Bernardo Sarpy (same as last?), De l'Or Sarpy, Gregoire (Gregorio) Sarpy, Jean Baptiste (Juan Bautista) Sarpy, and Lille Sarpy. It has occured to me that Bac^c^i might be a version of Baptiste. (Which Dorsey spells Battiste in other French names, e.g., Battiste Deroin/Dorion.) Jean Baptiste Sarpy was the older brother of Gregoire Sarpy, who I suppose might even be Pierre Gregoire Sarpy. Because Baptiste has an Omaha form Badi'ze (see below), we'd have to assume that Bac^c^i' has a different history, perhaps involving Ioway-Otoe, where t regularly becomes c^ before i, though I think the phonology of Canadian French is such that one needn't appeal to Ioway-Otoe to have t materialize as c^. It would have to be assumed that the name Bac^c^i' became fixed to members of the family Sarpy, and carried across regardless of their actual given name. Other French names I have noticed in the Dorsey texts are: Badi'ze (Battiste) Budhi't[t]e (glossed Charles Pepin, but maybe Hippolyte?) Dhawi'ini, Dhawi'na (David) (Dorsey is also given variously as Da'si [rarely] and Dha'si [commonly]) HaNdhi' (Henry, Henri) J^o' (Joe, Joseph) Dhusi' (Lucy, Lucie) Mis^e'dha (Michel) Sasu' (Frank, Francis, Francois) (also given as just Frank) S^ani' (Charlie, Charles) Zuze'tte (Susette) This may not be the complete list, because it has been compiled entirely by chance encounter. In addition, given the importance of the trading connection with Omaha and Ponca history and the prominence of metis families in all lower Missouri Sioan groups, a fairly full colleftion of French names in Colonial use must have been available and in circulation. In particular, the town Rosalie is called Dhuza'dhi in Omaha. In fact, I was told that Rosalie was an English version of the Omaha name Dhuza'dhi, which clearly implies that Dhuza'dhi is completely naturalized. Of course, the town is named for Rosalie (LaFlesche) Farley, and as her Omaha name was probably Dhuza'dhi, then Rosalie really is just an English version of her Omaha name. I have also personally heard Me'dhi (Mary, Marie) in current use. The form Sasu' makes you wonder about the origin of the surname Sanssouci, although I think the latter is usually assumed to be a dit name. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Apr 3 21:54:34 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 14:54:34 -0700 Subject: Pain Court => St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > Does anyone have a sense of when the site was still > Pain Court, and when the name shifted to St. Louis? > Was this shift at the time of St. Louis' foundation > in 1764, or was it not until later? As far as I can tell the site was unnamed until the town was founded as St. Louis. The nickname followed on the heels of the formal name. Houck, p. 67, quotes in a letter of October 31, 1769, from Pedro Piernas, lieut. commanding in St. Louis, to Alexander O'Reilly, captain general and governor of Louisiana, the lines: "I set out for Misera [= St. Genevieve or Santa Genoveva] on the 6th of December. ... and could not ... reach Misera until the 29th [of January] ... on the 30th [of February] I reached Paincour, called San Luis, the second French settlment, which is 20 leagues from the first." JEK From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Apr 3 22:18:19 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 17:18:19 -0500 Subject: Sarpy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > One minor mystery in the Omaha and Ponca texts is that the trader Sarpy is > referred to as Bac^c^i'. Dorsey says that this is Peter G. Sarpy, and he > seems to have been a trader for whom Joseph La Flesche worked when he was > a young man. The Sarpy family were prominent traders on the lower > Missouri in the early days. The Houck and Nasatir collections mention > Bernal (Beral) Sarpy, Bernardo Sarpy (same as last?), De l'Or Sarpy, > Gregoire (Gregorio) Sarpy, Jean Baptiste (Juan Bautista) Sarpy, and Lille > Sarpy. > > It has occured to me that Bac^c^i might be a version of Baptiste. (Which > Dorsey spells Battiste in other French names, e.g., Battiste > Deroin/Dorion.) Jean Baptiste Sarpy was the older brother of Gregoire > Sarpy, who I suppose might even be Pierre Gregoire Sarpy. "Batticy" is the French nickname for "Baptiste". This comes about since the p is not pronounced, i.e., "Baptiste" is [batis]. > > Because Baptiste has an Omaha form Badi'ze (see below), we'd have to > assume that Bac^c^i' has a different history, perhaps involving > Ioway-Otoe, where t regularly becomes c^ before i, though I think the > phonology of Canadian French is such that one needn't appeal to Ioway-Otoe > to have t materialize as c^. > > It would have to be assumed that the name Bac^c^i' became fixed to members > of the family Sarpy, and carried across regardless of their actual given > name. > > Other French names I have noticed in the Dorsey texts are: > > Badi'ze (Battiste) > Budhi't[t]e (glossed Charles Pepin, but maybe Hippolyte?) > Dhawi'ini, Dhawi'na (David) > (Dorsey is also given variously as Da'si [rarely] and Dha'si [commonly]) > HaNdhi' (Henry, Henri) > J^o' (Joe, Joseph) > Dhusi' (Lucy, Lucie) > Mis^e'dha (Michel) > Sasu' (Frank, Francis, Francois) (also given as just Frank) > S^ani' (Charlie, Charles) > Zuze'tte (Susette) > Interesting stuff. > This may not be the complete list, because it has been compiled entirely > by chance encounter. In addition, given the importance of the trading > connection with Omaha and Ponca history and the prominence of metis > families in all lower Missouri Sioan groups, a fairly full colleftion of > French names in Colonial use must have been available and in circulation. > > In particular, the town Rosalie is called Dhuza'dhi in Omaha. In fact, I > was told that Rosalie was an English version of the Omaha name Dhuza'dhi, > which clearly implies that Dhuza'dhi is completely naturalized. Of > course, the town is named for Rosalie (LaFlesche) Farley, and as her Omaha > name was probably Dhuza'dhi, then Rosalie really is just an English > version of her Omaha name. > > I have also personally heard Me'dhi (Mary, Marie) in current use. > > The form Sasu' makes you wonder about the origin of the surname Sanssouci, > although I think the latter is usually assumed to be a dit name. > > John E. Koontz > http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Apr 3 22:19:10 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 17:19:10 -0500 Subject: Pain Court => St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does this imply that St. Louis is originally a Spanish designation for the place? That would be interesting. Michael On Sat, 3 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Sat, 3 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > Does anyone have a sense of when the site was still > > Pain Court, and when the name shifted to St. Louis? > > Was this shift at the time of St. Louis' foundation > > in 1764, or was it not until later? > > As far as I can tell the site was unnamed until the town was founded as > St. Louis. The nickname followed on the heels of the formal name. > > Houck, p. 67, quotes in a letter of October 31, 1769, from Pedro Piernas, > lieut. commanding in St. Louis, to Alexander O'Reilly, captain general > and governor of Louisiana, the lines: "I set out for Misera [= St. > Genevieve or Santa Genoveva] on the 6th of December. ... and could not > ... reach Misera until the 29th [of January] ... on the 30th [of February] > I reached Paincour, called San Luis, the second French settlment, which is > 20 leagues from the first." > > JEK > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Apr 3 22:27:40 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 17:27:40 -0500 Subject: Sarpy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > > On Sat, 3 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > > > One minor mystery in the Omaha and Ponca texts is that the trader Sarpy is > > referred to as Bac^c^i'. Dorsey says that this is Peter G. Sarpy, and he > > seems to have been a trader for whom Joseph La Flesche worked when he was > > a young man. The Sarpy family were prominent traders on the lower > > Missouri in the early days. The Houck and Nasatir collections mention > > Bernal (Beral) Sarpy, Bernardo Sarpy (same as last?), De l'Or Sarpy, > > Gregoire (Gregorio) Sarpy, Jean Baptiste (Juan Bautista) Sarpy, and Lille > > Sarpy. > > > > It has occured to me that Bac^c^i might be a version of Baptiste. (Which > > Dorsey spells Battiste in other French names, e.g., Battiste > > Deroin/Dorion.) Jean Baptiste Sarpy was the older brother of Gregoire > > Sarpy, who I suppose might even be Pierre Gregoire Sarpy. > > "Batticy" is the French nickname for "Baptiste". This comes about since > the p is not pronounced, i.e., "Baptiste" is [batis]. Je m'excuse ded' c,a: I gave you the colloquial Canadian French pronunciation [batis], which is what I learned and how I pronounce it. In "standard" franc,ais, it's [batist]. Michael From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Apr 3 22:31:14 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 17:31:14 -0500 Subject: Sarpy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Je m'excuse ded' c,a: > > I gave you the colloquial Canadian French pronunciation [batis], which is > what I learned and how I pronounce it. In "standard" franc,ais, it's > [batist]. > > Michael > I'll eventually get this right. Colloquian Canadian French "Baptiste" is actually phonetic [batsIs]. Voila`. Michael From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Apr 4 08:25:45 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 01:25:45 -0700 Subject: Pain Court => St. Louis? (fwd) Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Does this imply that St. Louis is originally a Spanish designation for the > place? That would be interesting. No, it was founded in 1764 by Pierre Laclede and Auguste Choteau (c. 15 at the time), on a site they had selected the previous year. They named St. Louis in honor of Louis IX (the crusader king). Laclede noted in his journal that he wondered if it might not become an important place some day. He didn't know it, but France had already secretly signed the territory over to Spain in 1762. The French in Illinois thought that France would retain the Missouri even though they realized that the Illinois would be ceded to England. San Luis is used in the letter because Spanish document tend to refer to everything in terms of Spanish equivalents. (The documents in the collection are all translated, of course.) There are even some Germans around named Juan Couns in censuses, though I don't think they are relatives. Anyway, I think that using conversions into one's own language was the fashion in the 1700s. So Louis is Luis in Spanish, but Lewis in English and Ludwig in German, and so on. I'm not sure why Paincour isn't "translated" too. Maybe it didn't seem to make enough sense to translate. Ste Genevieve was founded in 1735. At least that's one story. Apparently evidence suggests it was actually founded in the 1750s. I wonder if its nickname Misere might be a punning reference to Missouri. That's entirely speculative on my part, of course. It is rather to the south of St. Louis, which is south of the mouth of the Missouri. Ste Genevieve is prone to flooding, as we were all reminded in 1993. (See http://www.stegenevieve.net/sg-floods.htm.) Incidentally, I looked and there is definitely a Pincourt in Quebec, and there are Pincourts in France. It is also attested as a surname. From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Sun Apr 4 13:55:49 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 14:55:49 +0100 Subject: Sarpy Message-ID: In Michif, according to the works of Peter Bakker, 'John' is [baecis], which involves the ae ligature and a hacek over the c. This is because the 'default' John that French boys were named Jean after, was John the Baptist. Anthony From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Apr 4 14:20:08 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 09:20:08 -0500 Subject: Tired of Pain Court yet? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > It did occur to me after I signed off that what I needed was an ecological > survey of St. Louis and that for this it would suffice to have an typical > archaeological investigation of the American Bottom (in the midst of > which, I note without further comment, St. Louis may be found). The American Bottom) is on the east side of the the Mississippi (part of "the Illinois" of those days), across the river from the then-named Spanish Bottom (or Spanish side), which included St. Louis. Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Apr 4 01:33:02 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 19:33:02 -0600 Subject: Tired of Pain Court yet? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > It did occur to me after I signed off that what I needed was an ecological > survey of St. Louis and that for this it would suffice to have an typical > archaeological investigation of the American Bottom (in the midst of > which, I note without further comment, St. Louis may be found). The American Bottom) is on the east side of the the Mississippi (part of "the Illinois" of those days), across the river from the then-named Spanish Bottom, which included St. Louis. Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Apr 4 19:58:50 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 13:58:50 -0600 Subject: Sarpy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Apr 2004, Anthony Grant wrote: > In Michif, according to the works of Peter Bakker, 'John' is [baecis], > which involves the ae ligature and a hacek over the c. This is because > the 'default' John that French boys were named Jean after, was John the > Baptist. When you combine that with Michael's [batcIs], and consider the problems with final consonants in Dhegiha and Ioway-Otoe, Bac^c^i = "(Jean) Baptiste" seems fairly plausible. I have just discovered, however, that I have been barking up the wrong name. It had been bothering me, explaining why Peter G. Sarpy should be called "(Jean) Baptiste," although there are definitely Jean Baptistes enough in his family. So, I decided to look to see what I could find out about the Sarpy family and its genealogy. It appears that the folks in question are all descendents of one Charles Sarpy, born in Fumel in Gascony. He had children Jean Baptiste, Sylvestre Delor(d), Pierre dit Lestang, Gregoire Beral(d), JB (de)Lille, Pierre St. Marc, Susanne Madelaine, Therese Madelaine, Helene Madelaine, and Marie Madelaine. He and his wife seem to have liked certain names, even allowing for Catholic principles in naming. It's possible that JB, who died in 1799, may have predeceased JB (de)Lille, though that seems unlikely, and it's also possible that some of the sons are doublets of the same person - i.e., only one JB and one Pierre. Charles's fourth son, Gregoire Berald Sarpy (1764-1824) followed his older brothers to Louisiana and St. Louis and married Marie-Pelagie Labbadie there in 1797. He had at least two sons, JB Sarpy (1799-) and Peter Abadie Sarpy (1804 or 1805-1865). It was the latter - Peter A., not Peter G. as Dorsey reports - who came to operate the trading post a Bellevue and was one of the founders of Decatur (south of Macy). (I suppose it's possible that PA was Pierre Gregoire Abadie Sarpy, but I've only seen Peter G. from Dorsey.) In fact, in 1823 PA began working at the American Fur Company's operation in Bellevue for Jean Cabanne (father in law of PA's brother JB). In 1832 Sarpy seized the keelboat of a competitor at Cabanne's orders. I don't know the details, but fur traders were mostly great believers in owning the market and excluding competitors unles they were the one's being excluded. He and Cabanne were ordered out of Indian Territory for a year in the aftermath. After enterprises in Iowa and what is now Colorado - I htink I've been to the site - PA returned to Bellevue and in 1840 moved into the trading post formerly occupied by Lucien Fontenelle. Incidentally, there are still Sarpys around in various places in the US. The Delord-Sarpy family seems to have been a prominent creole family in Louisiana. Anyway, I have noticed that Pierre Abadie a/k/a Peter A.'s middle name Abadie (which resembles his mother's maiden name L[']abbadie and is probably derived from it) is at least as likely a source of Bac^c^i as Jean Baptiste. It may actually be more plausible, given that we have OP Badi'ze for Baptiste elsewhere and given that Abadie is the form that actually goes with Peter's known nomenclature. There is certainly a pattern of the Sarpy men using their middle names or nicknames, e.g., (Sylvestre) Delor(d), (Pierre) dit Lestang, (Gregoire) Beral(d), (JB)(de)Lille, and so perhaps (Pierre) Abadie or even 'Badie. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Apr 4 20:31:36 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 15:31:36 -0500 Subject: Sarpy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Anthony Grant wrote: > In Michif, according to the works of Peter Bakker, 'John' is [baecis], > which involves the ae ligature and a hacek over the c. Badsie is an Onondaga chief's name--French?--in 1700 (NYCD 4.805). From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Apr 5 14:23:57 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:23:57 -0500 Subject: Pain Court => St. Louis? (fwd) Message-ID: >> Does this imply that St. Louis is originally a Spanish designation for the >> place? That would be interesting. > > No, it was founded in 1764 by Pierre Laclede and Auguste Choteau (c. 15 at > the time), on a site they had selected the previous year. They named St. > Louis in honor of Louis IX (the crusader king). Laclede noted in his > journal that he wondered if it might not become an important place some > day. Interesting! But I'm still confused about where Pain Court comes into the equation. Was that the site's name prior to 1764? Or was it a nickname applied later by voyageurs? Rory From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Apr 5 14:49:08 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:49:08 -0500 Subject: Sarpy In-Reply-To: <407070A8.4030805@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Well, "Badsie" is not Iroquoian, because of the B-. Iroquoian doesn't have bilabials. The -ds- is a more or less respectable transcription of Canadian French /ts/ (superscript s) for /t/ before /i/ and /u"/ (umlaut over the u). /dz/ (superscript z) in Canadian French represents /d/ before /i/ and /u"/. So, 'John' = [baecis] is probably (Jean)-Baptiste, and "Badsie" seems to be "Baptiste". Michael On Sun, 4 Apr 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > Anthony Grant wrote: > > > In Michif, according to the works of Peter Bakker, 'John' is [baecis], > > which involves the ae ligature and a hacek over the c. > > Badsie is an Onondaga chief's name--French?--in 1700 (NYCD 4.805). > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Apr 5 15:24:04 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 10:24:04 -0500 Subject: Sarpy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Well, "Badsie" is not Iroquoian, because of the B-. Iroquoian doesn't have > bilabials. Good point. (The same phonological fact ruled Iroquois out as the source of 'hoppus,' an earlier concern of mine.) The only other possibility is Dutch, in which Jan Baptist is a common name (and was in 1700 in the Hudson River basin). I don't know anything about colonial American Dutch, but I don't have any reason to think that the [t] was palatized as it was in French. Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 5 22:26:33 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 16:26:33 -0600 Subject: Sarpy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > Anyway, I have noticed that Pierre Abadie a/k/a Peter A.'s middle name > Abadie (which resembles his mother's maiden name L[']abbadie and is > probably derived from it) is at least as likely a source of Bac^c^i as > Jean Baptiste. It may actually be more plausible, given that we have OP > Badi'ze for Baptiste elsewhere and given that Abadie is the form that > actually goes with Peter's known nomenclature. There is certainly a > pattern of the Sarpy men using their middle names or nicknames, e.g., > (Sylvestre) Delor(d), (Pierre) dit Lestang, (Gregoire) Beral(d), > (JB)(de)Lille, and so perhaps (Pierre) Abadie or even 'Badie. Anybody know what the origins of Abadie or Labbadie are? It occurs to me to wonder how Abadie [abadi'] or [abadsi'] might manifest with d as c^c^ as in Bac^c^i, while Baptiste/Battiste with (t)t has that come out as d in Badi'ze. I was also intrigued that both David and Dorsey should come out with initial d as dh while final d in David is n (dhawini/a). In this case the d's might be from English in all cases - certainly with Dorsey, maybe with David. I don't know of any further cases of d to dh or n in loanwords. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 5 16:39:46 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 10:39:46 -0600 Subject: Tired of Pain Court yet? In-Reply-To: <40701998.2000005@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Apr 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > The American Bottom) is on the east side of the the Mississippi (part of > "the Illinois" of those days), across the river from the then-named > Spanish Bottom (or Spanish side), which included St. Louis. Thanks! I think someone has pointed this distinction out to me before, but I tend to lose track of it. Since the American and Spanish Bottoms are, as it were, cheek to cheek across the Mississippi, I suspect that their flora are similar. The American Bottom Archaeology project involved sites in Illinois (East St. Louis and environs) that were being disturbed by highway construction. Since a lot of the western shore archaeology was obliterated by the expansion of St. Louis in the 1800s, the archaeology of the eastern shore is helpful in clarifying matters. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 5 16:13:45 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 10:13:45 -0600 Subject: Pain Court => St. Louis? (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > Interesting! But I'm still confused about where Pain Court > comes into the equation. Was that the site's name prior to > 1764? Or was it a nickname applied later by voyageurs? Prior to 1764 the site was a nameless uninhabited place on a bluff above the Mississippi, as I understand it. However, it was a place with history whose potential for settlement had been noted before. The Cahokia archaeological site is in the general vicinity. I don't know if Laclede recognized its mounds for what they were, or when they were first recognized at all. I deduce that Paincour(t) was a named applied after the site began to develop, by the inhabitants. Like "the Big Apple" or "Gotham" for New York (all three late additions, of course), or LA for Ciudad de los Angeles y tal y cual. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Apr 5 23:48:55 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 18:48:55 -0500 Subject: Sarpy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Sun, 4 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > > Anyway, I have noticed that Pierre Abadie a/k/a Peter A.'s middle name > > Abadie (which resembles his mother's maiden name L[']abbadie and is > > probably derived from it) is at least as likely a source of Bac^c^i as > > Jean Baptiste. It may actually be more plausible, given that we have OP > > Badi'ze for Baptiste elsewhere and given that Abadie is the form that > > actually goes with Peter's known nomenclature. There is certainly a > > pattern of the Sarpy men using their middle names or nicknames, e.g., > > (Sylvestre) Delor(d), (Pierre) dit Lestang, (Gregoire) Beral(d), > > (JB)(de)Lille, and so perhaps (Pierre) Abadie or even 'Badie. > > Anybody know what the origins of Abadie or Labbadie are? > > It occurs to me to wonder how Abadie [abadi'] or [abadsi'] might manifest > with d as c^c^ as in Bac^c^i, while Baptiste/Battiste with (t)t has that > come out as d in Badi'ze. John, I can't quite understand the statement or question, but it didn't occur to me that Abadie/Labbadie was part of the mix. That name could certainly be the source of something like Bac^c^i. Abadie would be [abadzi]. Michael From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 5 23:55:13 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 17:55:13 -0600 Subject: Sarpy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > Anybody know what the origins of Abadie or Labbadie are? Answering myself with the help of http://www.buber.net/Basque/Surname/L/labadie.html: ==== Start of quotation LABADIE Although is a basque surname, that means "The Abbey", the word has a lathin origin, in spanish Abbey is ABADIA, and in French ABBAYE, but in basque priest is ABADEA, so this word was incorporated to the basque language long time ago. The variations of this surname are: ABADIE in Zuberoa, ABADIA: in Nabarra and the North part of the Province of Huesca (this part was basque in the past), LABADIA in Navarra and Huesca, and LABADIE in BeheNavarre (French Basque Country), but also in Navarre and Huesca, there are also families with this surname in Gascogne. This surname is more usual in the French Basque Country than in the Southern, so I suposse that your family comes from the Province of Behenafarroa or Basse Navarre. In any case is not very normal to find Abbeys in our country, and I have told you that Abadea or also Abadie is priest, so the meaning can be also "The house of the priest". Some authors think that the form Labadie is a gasconized form, because of the initial L, that is the article, and in basque the article is the final A or E of the words, Ex: Etxe is house, Etxea is The house. so the L shows that the surname was probably in the origin L'Abadie. ==== End of quotation From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 6 02:29:58 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 20:29:58 -0600 Subject: Sarpy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > It occurs to me to wonder how Abadie [abadi'] or [abadsi'] might manifest > > with d as c^c^ as in Bac^c^i, while Baptiste/Battiste with (t)t has that > > come out as d in Badi'ze. > > John, I can't quite understand the statement or question, but it didn't > occur to me that Abadie/Labbadie was part of the mix. That name could > certainly be the source of something like Bac^c^i. Abadie would be > [abadzi]. I phrased this badly. I meant, it seems odd that Abadie, a word with voiced d (or dz) in French, would come out Bac^c^i', with a voiceless geminate c^c^ [tts^], while Baptiste, a word with a voiceless, possibly geminate t (or ts) in French, would come out Badi'ze, with a voiced d. Note that the earlier voiced b in both cases comes out b. You'd expect Baj^i and Batti'ze. At least those seem more regular. It's possible that subtle factors in the assimilation of nonsense sequences like these to Omaha-Ponca canons of word form are at work. For example, eliminating initial a- would make Bac^c^i sound less like a first person, which would be a strange form for a name. The ideal would be Bac^c^ibi 'He ...s', whatever *c^c^i meant. It might be being assimilated to c^hi 'to have intercourse with'. Still, to my admittedly non-native sensibilities Batti'ze seems as reasonable as Badi'ze. I understand -s > -ze, because voicing is normal in post tonic position for fricatives. The first case calls to mind a reference to a Jewish pedlar in Lurie's Mountain Wolf Woman. As I understand it, when asked how MWW knew or remembered he was Jewish, Lurie replied that no Winnebago in the old days would forget later that someone was a j^u, having heard it, because it was amusing, j^u being the Winnebago cognate of OP c^hi, and the sort of chance homophony that stuck in your mind. This man was called s^orot, from his pronunciation of shirt. I wonder if he said s^ort, and the additional o brings the name into accord with Winnebago syllable structure, though historically the epenthesis works the other way in Winnebago: *s^rot > *s^orot. (Note, however, that final -t would be unsual in Winnebago, since *t(e)# > c^#, so *s^rot < *s^oroc^.) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 6 04:01:59 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 22:01:59 -0600 Subject: More Pain Message-ID: I have a French military dictionary. I looked in it and found several pain forms that seem to amount to ingot or bar or metal, e.g., pain d'acier (steel), pain de cuivre (copper). Sort of like sugarloaf in English. I think someone mentioned sugarloaf. I suppose paincourt could also mean an underweight ingot, or perhaps, by extension, it could be a reference to underpaying or shortchanging or cheating someone. The same could be true of a form meaning 'short loaf (of bread)'. This would not be as popular an explanation with the city fathers, of course, but might be just as plausible in reference to a market town. I don't recall any parallel cases off hand. I've given a little thought as to what sorts of native names might lead to pain cour(t). The best I can come up with are Peoria (Pewarewa) and Piankashaw (peangis^ia). The French truncation of the former was Pe(z). The main Illinois village in the vincinity was Cahokia, on the east bank, which gives its name spuriously to the archaeological sites near St. Louis. The Peoria were on the east bank somewhat to the north with the Cahokia from 1763 to 1766, which is just at the foundation of St. Louis, and they were around St. Louis on both banks in the 1760s generally. Until 1763 they were on the upper reaches of the Illinois near Lake Peoria. About this time they absorbed the Cahokia and Peoria came to be one of the main terms for the Illinois. In contrast the Kaskaskia and Michigamea were near Ft. Chartres and Ste. Genevieve. Pe is obviously a fairly good match for Pain (piN, peN), but unnasalized, and I can't get to Paincour(t) from there except by the unprincipled approach of claiming an alliterative word play. Not that we don't seem have evidence that such things exist, and that's the proposal I've offered for getting from Pain court to PpahiN z^ide. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Apr 6 13:17:38 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 08:17:38 -0500 Subject: Sarpy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 5 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > > It occurs to me to wonder how Abadie [abadi'] or [abadsi'] might manifest > > > with d as c^c^ as in Bac^c^i, while Baptiste/Battiste with (t)t has that > > > come out as d in Badi'ze. > > > > John, I can't quite understand the statement or question, but it didn't > > occur to me that Abadie/Labbadie was part of the mix. That name could > > certainly be the source of something like Bac^c^i. Abadie would be > > [abadzi]. > > I phrased this badly. I meant, it seems odd that Abadie, a word with > voiced d (or dz) in French, would come out Bac^c^i', with a voiceless > geminate c^c^ [tts^], while Baptiste, a word with a voiceless, possibly > geminate t (or ts) in French, would come out Badi'ze, with a voiced d. > Note that the earlier voiced b in both cases comes out b. You'd expect > Baj^i and Batti'ze. At least those seem more regular. I assume that here, John, you are talking about things that happen in Siouan languages when they process European language terms, i.e., devoicing a voiced French sound and voicing a sound that is not voiced in French. Also, the t is not geminate in French "Baptiste". (Also, also, I don't know if this is of any value--and unfortunately I don't know the distribution of this fonological fenomenon--some Canadian French speakers pronounce the /a/ of "Baptiste" as a back a (somewhat like the a in English "father".) Michael From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Apr 6 17:54:07 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 12:54:07 -0500 Subject: Pain Court => St. Louis? (fwd) Message-ID: >> Interesting! But I'm still confused about where Pain Court >> comes into the equation. Was that the site's name prior to >> 1764? Or was it a nickname applied later by voyageurs? > > Prior to 1764 the site was a nameless uninhabited place on a bluff above > the Mississippi, as I understand it. However, it was a place with history > whose potential for settlement had been noted before. The Cahokia > archaeological site is in the general vicinity. I don't know if Laclede > recognized its mounds for what they were, or when they were first > recognized at all. I deduce that Paincour(t) was a named applied after > the site began to develop, by the inhabitants. Like "the Big Apple" or > "Gotham" for New York (all three late additions, of course), or LA for > Ciudad de los Angeles y tal y cual. Possibly, but this name seems to have been an alternate from pretty early on. We might want to reckon with the possibility that it was derived from the original international Indian name for Cahokia, which might still have been remembered historically by the still-intact Indian societies at that time. The name might have been something like *Pa-i(N)-***. Indians would have continued to refer to the vicinity by that name, and French voyageurs would have punned it to Pain Court. As a wild shot, does /(h)ko:/ mean anything in local Algonquian languages? What would be their term for 'red'? Rory From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Apr 7 00:07:32 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (david costa) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 20:07:32 -0400 Subject: Pain Court => St. Louis? (fwd) Message-ID: No, /(h)ko:/ doesn't mean anything in the local Algonquian languages. The candidate roots for 'red' in Illinois are /niihpik-/ or, less often, /mihkw-/~/miskw-/. I don't think they're present here. The /hko/ is Shawnee /peenhko/ is just their phonetic rendering of French 'court'. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Rory M Larson Sent: Apr 6, 2004 1:54 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Pain Court => St. Louis? (fwd) As a wild shot, does /(h)ko:/ mean anything in local Algonquian languages? What would be their term for 'red'? Rory From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Fri Apr 9 10:30:48 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 12:30:48 +0200 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved Message-ID: Can anybody plz enlighten me with the construction (etymology?) of those one-word-sentences all involving the idea of 'hill'? (I'm aware of the verbs included as there are _gli_, _hi_ etc., and the affixes' _a-_, _e-_ (a + i ?) functions). But what is the meaning of the remaining _yahaN_? Can it be broken down to _ya_ etc. and what does it mean? (Buechel gives _yahaN_ in a meaning - see last entry below! - that doesn't seem to be etymologically connected to the idea of 'hill', does it? Or am I missing anything? gliya'hAN to appear on top of a hill in sight on one's way home agli'yahAN they came up a hill and stopped in sight on their way home e'yahAN they go up a hill and stand on hiya'hAN to appear on top of a hill, so becoming visible; said in ref. to one ahi'yahAN they came up (...) a hill and stood in sight agli'yoxpayA they came down from a hill ahi'yoxpayA they came down a hill ai'natxagya beyond a hill yahaN' to prick or run into one, as a splinter, thorn etc Thanks in advance Alfred From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Apr 9 14:19:10 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 09:19:10 -0500 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved Message-ID: Hi Alfred! My first question on that would be whether the [y] in _yahaN_ is real or epenthetic. The latter seems possible, as it always follows front vowels [i] or [e] in your examples. Have you tried looking up _ahaN_, or just plain _haN_ ? The one pair of examples you give that I'm pretty sure of is: > agli'yoxpayA > they came down from a hill > ahi'yoxpayA > they came down a hill Here, I'm sure the [y] is epenthetic. _oxpayA_ must correspond to OP uxpa'dhe, which means to fall. So these should equate morphologically to (hypothetical) OP: agdhi uxpadhe came back here fell athi uxpadhe arrived here fell So in this case at least, there is probably no explicit hill as such, but only the statement that they came back here or arrived here via a descending path. I'd suspect that the (a)haN part means something like 'stand on high'. Rory "Alfred W. Tüting" To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent by: cc: owner-siouan at lists.c Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved olorado.edu 04/09/2004 05:30 AM Please respond to siouan Can anybody plz enlighten me with the construction (etymology?) of those one-word-sentences all involving the idea of 'hill'? (I'm aware of the verbs included as there are _gli_, _hi_ etc., and the affixes' _a-_, _e-_ (a + i ?) functions). But what is the meaning of the remaining _yahaN_? Can it be broken down to _ya_ etc. and what does it mean? (Buechel gives _yahaN_ in a meaning - see last entry below! - that doesn't seem to be etymologically connected to the idea of 'hill', does it? Or am I missing anything? gliya'hAN to appear on top of a hill in sight on one's way home agli'yahAN they came up a hill and stopped in sight on their way home e'yahAN they go up a hill and stand on hiya'hAN to appear on top of a hill, so becoming visible; said in ref. to one ahi'yahAN they came up (...) a hill and stood in sight agli'yoxpayA they came down from a hill ahi'yoxpayA they came down a hill ai'natxagya beyond a hill yahaN' to prick or run into one, as a splinter, thorn etc Thanks in advance Alfred From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Apr 9 16:28:35 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 10:28:35 -0600 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved In-Reply-To: <40767B58.3040902@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Apr 2004, "Alfred W. Tüting" wrote: > Can anybody plz enlighten me with the construction (etymology?) of those > one-word-sentences all involving the idea of 'hill'? > gliya'hAN > to appear on top of a hill in sight on one's way home ... > e'yahAN > they go up a hill and stand on ... > yahaN' > to prick or run into one, as a splinter, thorn etc I quite agree with Rory's insight that these forms involve epenthetic y between a high vowel and another vowel and his comparison of oxpayA to OP uxpadhe 'to fall, to drop', i.e., 'to travel downward', a very exact cognate. The last verb 'to prick' may be unrelated. I would help to know its inflectional pattern. The ahaN part of the others looks like it would correspond to hypothetical OP athaN. I don't recall if this is attested in Dhegiha, but it would be superessive a- plus thaN 'to stand' - a positional root only in Dhegiha with an analysis something like 'for an animate to be located or posed in an upright fashion'. This is not the productive lexical verb 'to stand' which is naNz^iN. In OP thaN is the inflected definite article, (definite) relative marker, and progressive auxiliary for the category 'animate obviative standing', e.g., UmaNhaN aNgathaN 'we (standing) Omahas (who)' or PpadhiN=thaN 'the (standing) Pawnee'. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Fri Apr 9 17:21:02 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 19:21:02 +0200 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved Message-ID: >Hi Alfred! My first question on that would be whether the [y] in _yahaN_ is real or epenthetic. The latter seems possible, as it always follows front vowels [i] or [e] in your examples. Have you tried looking up _ahaN_, or just plain _haN_ ? The one pair of examples you give that I'm pretty sure of is: agli'yoxpayA they came down from a hill ahi'yoxpayA they came down a hill Here, I'm sure the [y] is epenthetic. _oxpayA_ must correspond to OP uxpa'dhe, which means to fall. So these should equate morphologically to (hypothetical) OP: agdhi uxpadhe came back here fell athi uxpadhe arrived here fell So in this case at least, there is probably no explicit hill as such, but only the statement that they came back here or arrived here via a descending path. I'd suspect that the (a)haN part means something like 'stand on hi Rory<< Hau Rory! thanks for your prompt reply that really gave me some hint on this matter: I actually found _ahaN'_ - to stand on _oxpa'_ - to drop -> oxpa'ye thi'pi - dormitory quartern _ahaN'_ - to stand on, rest on _ahaN'_ - take care, look out. 'Be careful!' (as is said when something is losing its balance and will drop, as a lamp on the edge of a table) ... and, of course, _han/he_ - to stand (of many things of appropriate shapes) e.g. (of a restaurant in Rood's examples): "Ka wiglioinazi kin hel isakib wanzi HE" (There's one over there, next to the gas station). As it might seem (and the 2nd example appears to indicate), _ahan_ not only implies the idea of standing on/at smth, but also of being careful in a sense of 'to watch' (=look out), which might derive from the idea of standing on a hilltop and looking afar from there. Here are some more entries (Buechel SJ) maybe pointing in this direction: _ahaN'kiktapi_ - a wake, a watching at the body of a deceased person (from: _ahaN_ + _kikta'_) - maybe, this taking place on a hilltop(??) _ahaN'naz^iN khuwa'_ - to bother one constantly (perhaps: smb 'chasing' you by standing and watching/observing your behavior etc.) _ahaN'zi_ - to be shady, overshadowed (_ahan_ + _zi_ - yellow, smoky??; maybe, as of a cloud on a hilltop?) Amalupte kin lila pilamayayelo! Alfred From rankin at ku.edu Fri Apr 9 17:43:18 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 12:43:18 -0500 Subject: Need quick Dhegiha answer. Message-ID: I've been contacted by the KS State Historical Society regarding some way of giving a happy "send-off" to the head of the Kaw Mission historic site in Council Grove, KS. I know the guy, and he has worked hard to bring the Kaw Nation into his site and ensure that they have an important role to play, so I'd like to help. Unfortunately I don't have anything appropriate in Kaw that I can use. None of you happens to have some sort of term like "good luck" or "best wishes", do you? They want something that will fit on top of a cake for the retirement party. I can translate from Omaha, Ponca or Osage if you have anything in one or two words that would be appropriate. They need it this afternoon (of course). I gave them a longer utterance in Kaw that will fit on a card but not a cake. "Hau" is not enough. Maybe "Ho kkoya!", but if you have something more genuine, I'd appreciate hearing it. Thanks! I apologize for the trivia. Bob From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Fri Apr 9 18:12:55 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 20:12:55 +0200 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved Message-ID: >e'yahAN they go up a hill and stand on ... yahaN' to prick or run into one, as a splinter, thorn etc<< >>I quite agree with Rory's insight that these forms involve epenthetic y between a high vowel and another vowel and his comparison of oxpayA to OP uxpadhe 'to fall, to drop', i.e., 'to travel downward', a very exact cognate. The last verb 'to prick' may be unrelated. It would help to know its inflectional pattern.<<<< I feel like convinced ;-) Thanks a lot! So _e'yahan_ is composed a+i+ahaN (with _i_ meaning 'to have arrived there'). _yahan'_ is inflected maya'han, niya'han etc. (Buechel: "Yunkan wicasa wanzila unkcela wan yahan keyapi" - And then they said a cactus stuck the man.) yuN'kxaN - and; also; then uNh^ce'la - cactus Alfred From tleonard at prodigy.net Fri Apr 9 18:13:33 2004 From: tleonard at prodigy.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 13:13:33 -0500 Subject: Need quick Dhegiha answer. Message-ID: Bob, I once saw "NoNde Giuda Ankontha" (not sure of the 'spelling' here) on a cake at a NAC meeting at White Eagle (Ponca). It was translated as "we want you to have a happy heart"....since apparently, as I was told, there's no real way of saying "happy birthday" or "best wishes" in Ponca. Hope that helps. Tom Leonard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 12:43 PM Subject: Need quick Dhegiha answer. > I've been contacted by the KS State Historical Society regarding some > way of giving a happy "send-off" to the head of the Kaw Mission historic > site in Council Grove, KS. I know the guy, and he has worked hard to > bring the Kaw Nation into his site and ensure that they have an > important role to play, so I'd like to help. Unfortunately I don't have > anything appropriate in Kaw that I can use. > > None of you happens to have some sort of term like "good luck" or "best > wishes", do you? They want something that will fit on top of a cake for > the retirement party. I can translate from Omaha, Ponca or Osage if you > have anything in one or two words that would be appropriate. They need > it this afternoon (of course). I gave them a longer utterance in Kaw > that will fit on a card but not a cake. "Hau" is not enough. Maybe "Ho > kkoya!", but if you have something more genuine, I'd appreciate hearing > it. Thanks! > > I apologize for the trivia. > > Bob > From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Fri Apr 9 18:24:40 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 20:24:40 +0200 Subject: Need quick Dhegiha answer. Message-ID: For what it's worth, that's what I found at Buechel's: _oka'blaya_ - peacefully, without obstruction; expanded; plain, level; freely, as in discoursing; having good luck So maybe smth like "Okablaya po!" (?) Alfred >I've been contacted by the KS State Historical Society regarding some way of giving a happy "send-off" to the head of the Kaw Mission historic site in Council Grove, KS. I know the guy, and he has worked hard to bring the Kaw Nation into his site and ensure that they have an important role to play, so I'd like to help. Unfortunately I don't have anything appropriate in Kaw that I can use. None of you happens to have some sort of term like "good luck" or "best wishes", do you? They want something that will fit on top of a cake for the retirement party. I can translate from Omaha, Ponca or Osage if you have anything in one or two words that would be appropriate. They need it this afternoon (of course). I gave them a longer utterance in Kaw that will fit on a card but not a cake. "Hau" is not enough. Maybe "Ho kkoya!", but if you have something more genuine, I'd appreciate hearing it. Thanks!<< From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Apr 9 23:31:54 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 17:31:54 -0600 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved In-Reply-To: <4076DB7E.2040606@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Apr 2004, "Alfred W. Tüting" wrote: > _ahaN'_ - to stand on > ... and, of course, _han/he_ - to stand (of many things of appropriate > shapes) e.g. (of a restaurant in Rood's examples): "Ka wiglioinazi kin > hel isakib wanzi HE" (There's one over there, next to the gas station). Definitely cognate with Omaha-Ponca thaN. And the corresponding inanimatge for is the. PS *th > Da h and OP th. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Apr 9 23:44:07 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 17:44:07 -0600 Subject: Need quick Dhegiha answer. In-Reply-To: <001a01c41e5e$6038a2a0$09de8d42@tleonard> Message-ID: How about wibdhahaN 'thank you' (or 'I will pray for you')? I think this is dative wi-gi-b-dhahaN < wi + gigdhahaN. I always forget the precise forms of dh-stems vs. ga-stems in datives and suus, so maybe this is gidhahaN. In any event, this is to go into Kaw, the dative will be something else again. Saying this with the hands outstretched is particularly major and wouldn't be done casually in any sense. This might not be a major enough situation. I believe the idiom for stretching out the hands is in Dorsey, but I forget it. A saluting form in the Dorsey texts used in a case of special gratitude is Hau, name! Hau! There are definitely far fewer occasional formulae in Siouan languages than seem needed to a wa(a)'xe. I guess prayers qualify, and there are patterns to those, but as they don't occur in Dorsey, I don't know them. I don't think there's any formal situation for an Omaha where a prayer wouldn't be deemed appropriate. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Apr 9 23:53:29 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 17:53:29 -0600 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved In-Reply-To: <4076E7A7.5000609@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Apr 2004, "Alfred W. Tüting" wrote: > _yahan'_ is inflected maya'han, niya'han etc. (Buechel: "Yunkan wicasa > wanzila unkcela wan yahan keyapi" - And then they said a cactus stuck > the man.) > > yuN'kxaN - and; also; then > uNh^ce'la - cactus Is blahaN or lahaN possible? This could be considered to be a transitive verb that requires a third person inanimate subject (that follows the animate object), but it amounts to an experiencer verb. I suppose ya is the mouth instrumental - likening sticking to biting. Another possibility would be i 'locative of instrument' + ahaN. I don't have enough data to tell yet. In any event, y here doesn't seem to be epenthetic. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sat Apr 10 09:54:37 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 11:54:37 +0200 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved Message-ID: >(John Koontz) Is blahaN or lahaN possible? This could be considered to be a transitive verb that requires a third person inanimate subject (that follows the animate object), but it amounts to an experiencer verb.<< Oh, ez a kérdés! But I don't think so, as Buechel doesn't give these inflections and, moreover, indicates the verb as 'vn' (neutral verb) this being his term for 'stative verb'. Under the English entry 'stick', _yahan_ is given as "TO BE stuck with as with a splinter"(capitalization by me). >I suppose ya is the mouth instrumental - likening sticking to biting. Another possibility would be i 'locative of instrument' + ahaN. I don't have enough data to tell yet. In any event, y here doesn't seem to be epenthetic.<< The former was my first thought too; the latter also seems pretty plausible, yet, the remaining part (-ahan) as such doesn't seem to incorporate the idea of 'prick/stick/bite', does it? (Maybe: to stand/be located on top of smth acute/spiky/'peakish', e.g. like a cactus, and being pricked BY it???) This interpretation might be grounded in Buechel's example (wicasa wanzila unkcela wan ...) where the stative verb obviously has TWO arguments! Shouldn't there be smth creating this 2nd slot, i.e. an instrumental affix _i-_? Alfred From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sat Apr 10 12:43:02 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 14:43:02 +0200 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved Message-ID: >>On Fri, 9 Apr 2004, "Alfred W. Tüting" wrote: _ahaN'_ - to stand on ... and, of course, _han/he_ - to stand (of many things of appropriate shapes) e.g. (of a restaurant in Rood's examples): "Ka wiglioinazi kin hel isakib wanzi HE" (There's one over there, next to the gas station).<<<< >(JEK) Definitely cognate with Omaha-Ponca thaN. And the corresponding inanimate for is the. PS *th > Da h and OP th.<< If I understand correctly, the O-P cognate of Da _haN'/he'_ is animate? This is interesting, since the Da (modern) form is not(at least with reference to humans)! Buechel: "han vn: to stand upright, as of things, to remain, as said of grass, arrows that strike the ground and stand; also of cattle etc. that remain or stay in a certain locality. < Hel hanpi s^ke. Tatanka optaye nunpa he lo There they say is soup. There remain two herds of buffalo>" With regard to our very topic, it looks like that on an earlier stage (historical level) _haN'_ still had been used with animates (-> agliyahan etc.). Alfred From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Apr 11 00:10:05 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:10:05 -0600 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved In-Reply-To: <4077C45D.9050509@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Apr 2004, "Alfred W. Tüting" wrote: > Oh, ez a kérdés! Sorry - my Hungarian is weak. It is Hungarian, right? > But I don't think so, as Buechel doesn't give these inflections and, > moreover, indicates the verb as 'vn' (neutral verb) this being his term > for 'stative verb'. Under the English entry 'stick', _yahan_ is given as > "TO BE stuck with as with a splinter"(capitalization by me). > >I suppose ya is the mouth instrumental - likening sticking to biting. > Another possibility would be i 'locative of instrument' + ahaN. I > don't have enough data to tell yet. In any event, y here doesn't seem > to be epenthetic.<< > > The former was my first thought too; the latter also seems pretty > plausible, yet, the remaining part (-ahan) as such doesn't seem to > incorporate the idea of 'prick/stick/bite', does it? (Maybe: to stand/be > located on top of smth acute/spiky/'peakish', e.g. like a cactus, and > being pricked BY it???) This interpretation might be grounded in > Buechel's example (wicasa wanzila unkcela wan ...) where the stative > verb obviously has TWO arguments! Shouldn't there be smth creating this > 2nd slot, i.e. an instrumental affix _i-_? Well, Ingham lists ic^a'ma 'to prick' taku' is^ta' ima'kama 'something pricked me in the eye', which has the 2 object i-locative format, complicated in the example by possessor raising. Otherwise what I find for 'stab' is c^ha=...phA, comparable to OP z^a=...he or IO ya=...we, which is transitive. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Apr 11 00:15:20 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:15:20 -0600 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved In-Reply-To: <4077EBD6.1040709@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Apr 2004, "Alfred W. Tüting" wrote: > If I understand correctly, the O-P cognate of Da _haN'/he'_ is animate? > This is interesting, since the Da (modern) form is not(at least with > reference to humans)! > > Buechel: "han vn: to stand upright, as of things, to remain, as said of > grass, arrows that strike the ground and stand; also of cattle etc. that > remain or stay in a certain locality. < Hel hanpi s^ke. Tatanka optaye > nunpa he lo There they say is soup. There remain two herds of buffalo>" > > With regard to our very topic, it looks like that on an earlier stage > (historical level) _haN'_ still had been used with animates (-> > agliyahan etc.). As definite articles thaN is used with animates only, while the is used with inanimates only. I'm not quite sure how it fell out that way in Dhegiha languages, since I don't think that animacy or inanimacy are primary attributes of the roots. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sun Apr 11 12:55:56 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 14:55:56 +0200 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved Message-ID: (AWT) The former was my first thought too; the latter also seems pretty plausible, yet, the remaining part (-ahan) as such doesn't seem to incorporate the idea of 'prick/stick/bite', does it? (Maybe: to stand/be located on top of smth acute/spiky/'peakish', e.g. like a cactus, and being pricked BY it???) This interpretation might be grounded in Buechel's example (wicasa wanzila unkcela wan ...) where the stative verb obviously has TWO arguments! Shouldn't there be smth creating this 2nd slot, i.e. an instrumental affix _i-_? (JEK) Well, Ingham lists ic^a'ma 'to prick' taku' is^ta' ima'kama 'something pricked me in the eye', which has the 2 object i-locative format, complicated in the example by possessor raising. Don't think that it's possessor raising complicating things here - but smth I found at Buechel that's a bit puzzling :(( 1) _icáma_ adj: rough, as cloth or the beard; pricking (...) vn: to hurt or prick, as anything in the eye or elsewhere < táku is^tá imákama Something is hurting my eye > (...) 2) _icáb_ v contrac of icapa: to stick in < icáb icú to stick in and take out (...) _icápa_ v icáwapa [fr _i_ in + capa to stick in]: to stick into, to take a stitch, to stab with, to stick in, e.g. a thorn or a stick < can icámapa. Na unma pestola (...) Was^in icapa wacin yelo. A stick stuck me. And another (...) He tried sticking into the fat. > Apart from the different pronunciations [icama vs ichab/ichapa], the former is a stative verb (vn), the latter a (transitive?) active verb (v), hence the functions of the i-prefixes respective seem to be different: instrumental (icama) and locative (ichapa). Chan icha'mapa - a stick has stuck (into) me Was^in' icha'apa wachin' yelo - he wanted to stick (into) the fat It seems that all 3 verbs (i.e. yahan vn, icama vn, ichapa v) do not have direct objects (but objects in locative). Do they have an agent subject? ichapa obviously has (e.g. chaN - stick). yahaN', as a stative verb, shouldn't have one (uNh^cela waN - BY a cactus??). And, what's with icama, classified as a stative verb (vn) as well?! No agent subject ta'ku? If this is correct, the sentence "ta'ku is^ta'ima'kama" has two objects, one instrumental (ta'ku), and one in locative (is^ta') - the latter being related to the -ma- infix for possessor raising. Can it be that the _i-_, here is double functional, i.e. instrumental plus locative at the same time? Pretty puzzling to me!! >Sorry - my Hungarian is weak. It is Hungarian, right?<< Yes. Sorry on my side, this is a 'geflügeltes Wort' of mine, e.g. of Hamlet: Lenni vagy nem lenni, ez itt a kérdés (to be or not to be...) Happy Easter/Pessach to all! Alfred From goodtracks at GBRonline.com Sun Apr 11 15:27:04 2004 From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 10:27:04 -0500 Subject: Fw: Fw: [Lexicog] new nosey word Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "LONSKY,JIRI" To: "Jimm GoodTracks" Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2004 3:15 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [Lexicog] new nosey word Yes, it is true. Some of our consonants are so called "syllable-forming", r, l, m; practically their ability to stand in for a wovel is related to the possibility to hold a length (like rrrrrrr and llll, while in other consonants this is not possible (b, p, k, t etc.) These then cannot be syllable forming. I had an interesting conversation a while ago with a Czech man in New mexico who brought to my attention close linguistic ties between the Basque language and Czech. Amazing. Hope you are well, Jiri On Sat Apr 10 20:37:58 EDT 2004, Jimm GoodTracks wrote: > Jiri! > Is this true that Czech has words without vowels?? If so, how do > they > pronounce the words?? > Jimm > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jan Ullrich" > To: > Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 4:09 AM > Subject: RE: [Lexicog] new nosey word > Fritz > > In Czech, my native language, probably the longest word without > vowels is > ?scvrnkls?. It means something like ?you pushed it away with you > finger?. > I think most of the Czech vowel-less words usually have about > three to five > consonants, but quite frequently they can be combined into > sentences, > similar to the famous Czech tongue twister: > > Strc prst skrz krk. (Stick your finger through your throat.) > > In such Czech words it is indeed ?r? and ?l? that are > phonetically > vowel-like. > Jan Ullrich > Lakota Language Revitalization Project > Indiana University, Bloomington > www.lakotalanguage.org > From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Sun Apr 11 16:32:37 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 11:32:37 -0500 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved Message-ID: >> If I understand correctly, the O-P cognate of Da _haN'/he'_ is animate? >> This is interesting, since the Da (modern) form is not(at least with >> reference to humans)! >> >> Buechel: "han vn: to stand upright, as of things, to remain, as said of >> grass, arrows that strike the ground and stand; also of cattle etc. that >> remain or stay in a certain locality. < Hel hanpi s^ke. Tatanka optaye >> nunpa he lo There they say is soup. There remain two herds of buffalo>" >> >> With regard to our very topic, it looks like that on an earlier stage >> (historical level) _haN'_ still had been used with animates (-> >> agliyahan etc.). > As definite articles thaN is used with animates only, while the is used > with inanimates only. I'm not quite sure how it fell out that way in > Dhegiha languages, since I don't think that animacy or inanimacy are > primary attributes of the roots. OP the is actually pretty complicated in its usage. It can refer to a standing inanimate thing, like a post or a house, but it is perhaps most commonly used to refer to ordered sets of things, like (an armload of) rocks, or both members of a set of paired body parts. Thus, one leg would be khe, "elongate", but both legs would be the, "the set". One eye would be dhaN, "globular", but both eyes would be the. A single hand, however, is still the, I suppose because all the fingers composing it are regarded as a set. I think that the also refers to very precisely located points, vs. dhaN, which implies a general area if referring to a location. And then we have a modal use of the, which in modern times is understood to mean "evidently", and which in the Dorsey texts from the 19th century seem to mean that the thing happened prior to the current time or the current point in the narrative, in a way that seems possibly perfective. I think Bob has argued that our the actually derives historically from two different roots. As John says, thaN seems to simply refer to standing animates only. What is the difference between haN and he in Dakotan? Alfred's example seems to be using he to refer to two remaining buffalo herds, if I'm reading it right. Would a herd be considered animate in the way a single buffalo would? Or could the he in this case be referring to the _set_ of two herds? Rory From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sun Apr 11 18:10:12 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 20:10:12 +0200 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved Message-ID: > (Rory) OP the is actually pretty complicated in its usage.(...)<< Very impressing how Siouan languages can differ among them. > What is the difference between haN and he in Dakotan? Alfred's example seems to be using he to refer to two remaining buffalo herds, if I'm reading it right. Would a herd be considered animate in the way a single buffalo would? Or could the he in this case be referring to the _set_ of two herds? << As far I can understand, there's no difference of that kind referred to by you. As Buechel points out (and I gather it), the _he_ form is used as a syntactic final and - as, according B., it seems - also has a flavour of factuality/past. Learning this, I was wondering a bit about B's present tense translation of the Buffalo sentence. Also, Rood's example dialogue actually refers to present tense! Here it is again, (although from my memory): A: He otunwahe kin el tuktel owote tipi wanzi HAN(!) hwo? B: Ka wiglioinazin kin hel isakib wanzi HE(!). Yet, it clearly demonstrates the use of the two forms han/he Alfred From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sun Apr 11 18:44:19 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 20:44:19 +0200 Subject: [Lexicog] new nosey word Message-ID: >Yes, it is true. Some of our consonants are so called "syllable-forming", r, l, m; practically their ability to stand in for a wovel is related to the possibility to hold a length (like rrrrrrr and llll, while in other consonants this is not possible (b, p, k, t etc.) These then cannot be syllable forming. I had an interesting conversation a while ago with a Czech man in New mexico who brought to my attention close linguistic ties between the Basque language and Czech. Amazing. Hope you are well, Jiri<< > In Czech, my native language, probably the longest word without vowels is ?scvrnkls?. It means something like ?you pushed it away with you finger?. I think most of the Czech vowel-less words usually have about three to five consonants, but quite frequently they can be combined into sentences, similar to the famous Czech tongue twister: Strc prst skrz krk. (Stick your finger through your throat.) In such Czech words it is indeed ?r? and ?l? that are phonetically vowel-like. Jan Ullrich << Yes, the "Strc (stick) prst (finger) skrz (through) krk (throat)!" sentence is a really famous one - and (although I'm not very familiar with Czech) I'm proud to be able to pronounce this sentence since my childhood ;-) Here (and in other samples), the R actually seems to have vowel quality (sometimes also L can have, e.g. in Bavarian or, say, Viennese dialect). Just one consideration: In Serbo-Croatian (that I do not speak) there's a word 'trg' (about: market) and in Romanian (that I'm familiar with) there's a word with the same meaning, spelled 'tîrg' or (now again) 'târg' (e.g. the toponym Târgu-Mures/Maros Vásárhely) which is pronounced with a 'darkened' vowel and - as I feel - quite similar to the 'vowelless' slavic version! So, is it only depending from what angle one is looking at it to decide whether the R is bearing the vowel or not??? Alfred From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Sun Apr 11 20:04:02 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 14:04:02 -0600 Subject: syllabic consonants Message-ID: Hi, everyone -- I haven't been following this discussion very well, but the concept of syllabic consonants caught my eye. In the unpublished intro to optimality theory by Prince and Smolensky (partly published in "Optimality Theory in Phonology; A REader" ed. by John McCarthy, Blackwell, 2004), they discuss (pp. 7ff in the McCarthy book) a dialect of Berber which allows any consonant whatsoever to be the peak of a syllable. They cite words like"bddl" and "tftkt". Their references are to several papers by Francois Dell and Mohamed Elmedlaoui int he Journal of African Linguistics and the Journal of Afroasiatic Languages in 1985, 1988, and 1989. -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of Alfred W. T�ting Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2004 12:44 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: [Lexicog] new nosey word >Yes, it is true. Some of our consonants are so called "syllable-forming", r, l, m; practically their ability to stand in for a wovel is related to the possibility to hold a length (like rrrrrrr and llll, while in other consonants this is not possible (b, p, k, t etc.) These then cannot be syllable forming. I had an interesting conversation a while ago with a Czech man in New mexico who brought to my attention close linguistic ties between the Basque language and Czech. Amazing. Hope you are well, Jiri<< > In Czech, my native language, probably the longest word without vowels is ?scvrnkls?. It means something like ?you pushed it away with you finger?. I think most of the Czech vowel-less words usually have about three to five consonants, but quite frequently they can be combined into sentences, similar to the famous Czech tongue twister: Strc prst skrz krk. (Stick your finger through your throat.) In such Czech words it is indeed ?r? and ?l? that are phonetically vowel-like. Jan Ullrich << Yes, the "Strc (stick) prst (finger) skrz (through) krk (throat)!" sentence is a really famous one - and (although I'm not very familiar with Czech) I'm proud to be able to pronounce this sentence since my childhood ;-) Here (and in other samples), the R actually seems to have vowel quality (sometimes also L can have, e.g. in Bavarian or, say, Viennese dialect). Just one consideration: In Serbo-Croatian (that I do not speak) there's a word 'trg' (about: market) and in Romanian (that I'm familiar with) there's a word with the same meaning, spelled 't�rg' or (now again) 't�rg' (e.g. the toponym T�rgu-Mures/Maros V�s�rhely) which is pronounced with a 'darkened' vowel and - as I feel - quite similar to the 'vowelless' slavic version! So, is it only depending from what angle one is looking at it to decide whether the R is bearing the vowel or not??? Alfred From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Apr 12 00:13:12 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 19:13:12 -0500 Subject: Linguistic term needed Message-ID: Does anybody have a proper linguistic term for the phenomenon of borrowing a word from a foreign language in such a way as to build a native construction that approximately chimes with the phonological sequence of the original? I've been using "pun", but I suspect there's a more appropriate term for it. Thanks! Rory From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 12 03:44:12 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 22:44:12 -0500 Subject: Linguistic term needed Message-ID: Got an example? I'm not sure I have the proper term, but I'm thinking of the Chinese borrowing the word "America" as mei-guo (which has 2 similar syllables). And mei-guo, perhaps conscious choice, means roughly 'beautiful kingdom'. I suppose it's a kind of "loan-blend", but not the typical kind. Bob > Does anybody have a proper linguistic term for the phenomenon > of borrowing a word from a foreign language in such a way as to > build a native construction that approximately chimes with the > phonological sequence of the original? I've been using "pun", > but I suspect there's a more appropriate term for it. > > Thanks! > Rory > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 12 07:56:36 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 01:56:36 -0600 Subject: Linguistic term needed In-Reply-To: <01cc01c42040$7e13a930$18b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Apr 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > Got an example? I'm not sure I have the proper term, but I'm thinking > of the Chinese borrowing the word "America" as mei-guo (which has 2 > similar syllables). And mei-guo, perhaps conscious choice, means roughly > 'beautiful kingdom'. I suppose it's a kind of "loan-blend", but not the > typical kind. It's sort of the inverse of a calque, with elements of a folk etymology. It's also a sort of cross-linguistic pattern of malapropism. Instead of translating the elements by sense, one looks for resemblent native elements that have their own sense and adapts toward that, though often ignoring that sense or not requiring it to be relevant to the actual application of the new form. Another example might be ecrevisse > crayfish, where some spurious sense is achieved. Examples like muchas gracias > much grass, danke schoen > donkey shane are similar but more humorously meant. I remember once hearing that students of Christmas carols were deeply suspicious of "partridge in a pear tree" because, of course, perdrix is French for partridge. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Mon Apr 12 09:08:47 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 11:08:47 +0200 Subject: Linguistic term needed Message-ID: > Got an example? I'm not sure I have the proper term, but I'm thinking of the Chinese borrowing the word "America" as mei-guo (which has 2 similar syllables). And mei-guo, perhaps conscious choice, means roughly 'beautiful kingdom'. I suppose it's a kind of "loan-blend", but not the typical kind.<< Exactly the same with Chinese (Putonghua) Yingguo (England - ying1: hero, outstanding person), Deguo (Deutschland - de2: virtue), Faguo (France - fa3: law, method, mode etc.), Feiguo (Philippines - fei1: luxuriant), Munihei (Munich/München - mu4: adore, esteem, ni2: nun, hei1: black). This is very nice IMHO as the city arms of Munich show a black-dressed childlike monk ;-) There's the only flaw, though, that ni2 is a Buddhist nun. Also in German, we have Mailand (lit.: mayland) for Milano. Sorry, I couldn't be of any help with the term needed. Alfred From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Mon Apr 12 09:42:39 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 11:42:39 +0200 Subject: syllabic consonants Message-ID: >(Rood) I haven't been following this discussion very well, but the concept of syllabic consonants caught my eye. In the unpublished intro to optimality theory by Prince and Smolensky (partly published in "Optimality Theory in Phonology; A REader" ed. by John McCarthy, Blackwell, 2004), they discuss (pp. 7ff in the McCarthy book) a dialect of Berber which allows any consonant whatsoever to be the peak of a syllable. They cite words like"bddl" and "tftkt". Their references are to several papers by Francois Dell and Mohamed Elmedlaoui in the Journal of African Linguistics and the Journal of Afroasiatic Languages in 1985, 1988, and 1989.<< As for plosives (different from liquids or sibilants etc., not having a certain duration), they're much harder to produce together (i.e. at the very same time) with the accompaning sound of the vocal chords. In Chinese (Putonghua), there are many words consisting of syllabic consonants, e.g. /s/ and /sh/ (usually written differently according to the system of romanization respective: pinyin si or shi, W-G szu or shih, Gwoyeu romatzyh syh or shyy etc.) Two of many more: si4 - four, si3 - to die etc. For whomever interested: I once have put together a whole story in Chinese, composed entirely of one and (almost) the same monosyllabic-consonant word: if written in a romanized form or spoken, it's Putonghua version is totally incomprehensible. http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de/SHISHI.RXML http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de/AUSAMP.RXML Alfred From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Apr 12 11:50:45 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 06:50:45 -0500 Subject: Linguistic term needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I believe the term paranomasia fits the bill. At least, that's what I call it my work. This happens occasionally in Native America historically. I've seen a couple of examples in the Midwest. Michael On Sun, 11 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > > > > Does anybody have a proper linguistic term for the phenomenon > of borrowing a word from a foreign language in such a way as to > build a native construction that approximately chimes with the > phonological sequence of the original? I've been using "pun", > but I suspect there's a more appropriate term for it. > > Thanks! > Rory > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 12 15:50:52 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 09:50:52 -0600 Subject: Linguistic term needed In-Reply-To: <407A5C9F.2020404@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, "Alfred W. Tüting" wrote: > Exactly the same with Chinese ... Munihei (Munich/München - mu4: adore, > esteem, ni2: nun, hei1: black). This is very nice IMHO as the city arms > of Munich show a black-dressed childlike monk ;-) There's the only flaw, > though, that ni2 is a Buddhist nun. The French nickname for the Moingouena, "Moines" as in des Moines is taken to refer to monks, though the name has quite another basis in Miami-Illinois. I believe the meaning had to do with excrement-faced, though I don't recall the details of the analysis. This is presumably one of those insulting names bestowed by other groups. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 12 16:05:17 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:05:17 -0600 Subject: OP /the/ vs. /dhaN/ (Re: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > OP /the/ is actually pretty complicated in its usage. It can refer to a > standing inanimate thing, like a post or a house, but it is perhaps most > commonly used to refer to ordered sets of things, like (an armload of) > rocks, or both members of a set of paired body parts. Thus, one leg > would be /khe/, "elongate", but both legs would be /the/, "the set". One > eye would be /dhaN/, "globular", but both eyes would be /the/. A single > hand, however, is still /the/, I suppose because all the fingers > composing it are regarded as a set. Or maybe hands are just upright things? > I think that /the/ also refers to very precisely located points, vs. > /dhaN/, which implies a general area if referring to a location. This materializes in the temporal use of /the/ and /dhaN/, e.g., in 'when' uses. > And then we have a modal use of /the/, which in modern times is > understood to mean "evidently", and which in the Dorsey texts from the > 19th century seem to mean that the thing happened prior to the current > time or the current point in the narrative, in a way that seems possibly > perfective. I think Bob has argued that our the actually derives > historically from two different roots. As John says, /thaN/ seems to > simply refer to standing animates only. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 12 16:09:59 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:09:59 -0600 Subject: Fw: Fw: [Lexicog] new nosey word In-Reply-To: <000901c41fd9$7777f110$0c650945@JIMM> Message-ID: I think this was simply an accidental cross post from the sometimes far-ranging Lex[icography] List. As I have been having a hard time keeping my fingers from intermixing LexList and SiouanList as a I save letters, I think I understand the problem. John E. Koontz On Sun, 11 Apr 2004, Jimm GoodTracks wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "LONSKY,JIRI" > To: "Jimm GoodTracks" > Subject: Re: Fw: [Lexicog] new nosey word > > Yes, it is true. Some of our consonants are so called > "syllable-forming", r, l, m; ... From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Apr 12 16:24:14 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 11:24:14 -0500 Subject: Linguistic term needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, "Alfred W. T�ting" wrote: > > Exactly the same with Chinese ... Munihei (Munich/M�nchen - mu4: adore, > > esteem, ni2: nun, hei1: black). This is very nice IMHO as the city arms > > of Munich show a black-dressed childlike monk ;-) There's the only flaw, > > though, that ni2 is a Buddhist nun. > > The French nickname for the Moingouena, "Moines" as in des Moines is taken > to refer to monks, though the name has quite another basis in > Miami-Illinois. Right. There were no monks. David Costa explains this ethnonym is "Miami-Illinois Tribe Names," Proceedings of the Thirty-first Algonquian Conference (2000): 30-53. The Miami-Illinois term is /mooyiinkweena/ [mooyiingweena]. |mooyi-iinkwee-na| 'shit'-'face'-independent animate indefinite actor suffix. In a paper of mine on the place name "Missouri," published last year by the onomastic journal Names, I present a short history of the ethnonym /mooyiinkweena/. ("On the birthday and etymology of the place name Missouri," Names 51.2 (2003), 31-45. I believe the meaning had to do with excrement-faced, > though I don't recall the details of the analysis. This is presumably one > of those insulting names bestowed by other groups. > Eyup. Michael From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Apr 12 17:36:43 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 12:36:43 -0500 Subject: OP /the/ vs. /dhaN/ (Re: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved) Message-ID: >> OP /the/ is actually pretty complicated in its usage. It can refer to a >> standing inanimate thing, like a post or a house, but it is perhaps most >> commonly used to refer to ordered sets of things, like (an armload of) >> rocks, or both members of a set of paired body parts. Thus, one leg >> would be /khe/, "elongate", but both legs would be /the/, "the set". One >> eye would be /dhaN/, "globular", but both eyes would be /the/. A single >> hand, however, is still /the/, I suppose because all the fingers >> composing it are regarded as a set. > Or maybe hands are just upright things? Well, hands can come in various positions, and I suppose if the speaker wanted to emphasize a hand laid out flat they could use /khe/, or a fist might be /dhaN/. I'll try to check with the speakers on that. But the expected default for a hand in general without specifying anything about its position seems to be /the/. I don't think that the distinction of /the/ as 'vertical' and /khe/ as 'horizontal' really holds as such. I'm pretty sure I've seen more than one instance in Dorsey referring to a rope or swing hanging down from a tree, i.e. vertical, and the positional used for it was /khe/, not /the/. I think /khe/ basically means 'elongate', or perhaps 'superficial'. For a vertical thing to be /the/, I believe it has to be actually standing upright, not hanging. I don't know how it works in other Dhegihan languages, but in OP I think the essence of /the/ is 'ordered, founded thing', something set up like a post or house, something that obviously exists in defiance of entropy; or something that is right there, just so, at a specific spot; or a well-defined set of things that are tied together somehow. The latter usage nicely contrasts with /ge/, meaning 'scattered things' not linked together belonging to an unbounded set. >> I think that /the/ also refers to very precisely located points, vs. >> /dhaN/, which implies a general area if referring to a location. > This materializes in the temporal use of /the/ and /dhaN/, e.g., in 'when' > uses. Yes. My impression has been that /the/ was used for an instant of time, while /dhaN/ referred to a period. I never found enough examples to be quite sure about this though. Rory From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Apr 12 17:43:02 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 12:43:02 -0500 Subject: Linguistic term needed Message-ID: > I believe the term paranomasia fits the bill. At least, that's what I call > it my work. This happens occasionally in Native America historically. I've > seen a couple of examples in the Midwest. Thanks, Michael! Yow! What a mouthful! Rory Michael Mccafferty cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: Linguistic term needed owner-siouan at lists.c olorado.edu 04/12/2004 06:50 AM Please respond to siouan I believe the term paranomasia fits the bill. At least, that's what I call it my work. This happens occasionally in Native America historically. I've seen a couple of examples in the Midwest. Michael On Sun, 11 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > > > > Does anybody have a proper linguistic term for the phenomenon > of borrowing a word from a foreign language in such a way as to > build a native construction that approximately chimes with the > phonological sequence of the original? I've been using "pun", > but I suspect there's a more appropriate term for it. > > Thanks! > Rory > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 12 17:32:25 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 11:32:25 -0600 Subject: Misere (Re: Linguistic term needed) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Right. There were no monks. David Costa explains this ethnonym is > "Miami-Illinois Tribe Names," Proceedings of the Thirty-first Algonquian > Conference (2000): 30-53. > > The Miami-Illinois term is /mooyiinkweena/ [mooyiingweena]. > |mooyi-iinkwee-na| 'shit'-'face'-independent animate indefinite actor > suffix. > In a paper of mine on the place name "Missouri," published last year by > the onomastic journal Names, I present a short history of the ethnonym > /mooyiinkweena/. ("On the birthday and etymology of the place name > Missouri," Names 51.2 (2003), 31-45. Well, Michael, what do you think about the plausibility of Misre/Misera as nicknames for Ste. Genevive being paranomasia(dic?) (paranomadic?) for Missouri/Misuri? I realize St(e). Genevieve is further from the mouth of the Missouri than St. Louis, but I have the impression Missouri was used a territorial name for the trans-Mississippi (from your point of view), while Illinois (Ylineses) was used for the cis-Mississippi. (Surely Ste. Genevieve des Missouris would be too good for anyone to pass up? And if they failed to pass it up too many times in a row, they'd have to move to St. Louis.) Ste. Genevieve was *the* settlement in the trans-Mississippi or Missouri opposite Illinois for a while until Laclede refused to trust his merchanidise to a site that was flooded annually and established himself at St. Louis instead. I should mention that I've suggested and Michael has rejected the possibility that Pain Court might be a similiar handling of a compound like Pez-Caos (Peoria-Cahokia), both groups being near St. Louis at its founding, with the Peoria later absorbing the Cahokia, but I'm not sure the resemblance is all that close (less than Misere - Missouri even) and Michael points out that there don't seem to be other examples hyphenated names like this. Also, the Peoria were rather diffusely settled in a number of places, including Kaskaskia, and seem to have moved quite a bit and Cao is already associated with another settlement. Note that Cahokia (or Cao) was the settlement in Illinois more or less opposite St. Louis or Pain Court, while Kaskasia (Kas or aux Kas or Oka) was more or less opposite Ste. Genevieve or Misere. I haven't quite given up on just Pez as a source for Pain, with Court making the joke, but I know of no attestation Pez = St. Louis. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Apr 12 18:05:40 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 13:05:40 -0500 Subject: Linguistic term needed Message-ID: Bob wrote: > Got an example? I'm not sure I have the proper term, but I'm thinking of the > Chinese borrowing the word "America" as mei-guo (which has 2 similar syllables). > And mei-guo, perhaps conscious choice, means roughly 'beautiful kingdom'. I > suppose it's a kind of "loan-blend", but not the typical kind. That's a good one. What I had in mind was a way to describe the possibility that the first part of OP /ppahi(N)-z^ide/ is a "pun" on the first part of Fr. Pain Court, or that both of these might be puns on a name for Cahokia/St. Louis in some undetermined third language, without having to spell it out every time. Or actually, how about this one? I've noticed that words for metals in MVS languages are commonly compounds of 'metal' plus a color term. Thus, 'white metal' is silver, 'black metal' is iron, 'red metal' is copper, and 'yellow metal' is brass. (Gold is 'yellow silver', or 'yellow white metal'.) In OP, the word for lead is moNze tu, 'blue metal'. But in Dakota, lead is maNza su, which also means 'bullet'. Apparently the Dakota word was influenced by the Omaha term phonologically, but since the Omaha word for 'blue', tu, had shifted so far from the Dakota word tho, the Dakota reinterpreted the Omaha tu into Dakota su, meaning 'seed' or 'pellet'. Thus, it came out as 'metal pellet', which served them both as the substance 'lead', and for the bullets that are made of that substance. Rory "R. Rankin" To: Sent by: cc: owner-siouan at lists.c Subject: Re: Linguistic term needed olorado.edu 04/11/2004 10:44 PM Please respond to siouan Got an example? I'm not sure I have the proper term, but I'm thinking of the Chinese borrowing the word "America" as mei-guo (which has 2 similar syllables). And mei-guo, perhaps conscious choice, means roughly 'beautiful kingdom'. I suppose it's a kind of "loan-blend", but not the typical kind. Bob > Does anybody have a proper linguistic term for the phenomenon > of borrowing a word from a foreign language in such a way as to > build a native construction that approximately chimes with the > phonological sequence of the original? I've been using "pun", > but I suspect there's a more appropriate term for it. > > Thanks! > Rory > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 12 18:06:14 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 12:06:14 -0600 Subject: OP /the/ vs. /dhaN/ (Re: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > Yes. My impression has been that /the/ was used for an > instant of time, while /dhaN/ referred to a period. I never > found enough examples to be quite sure about this though. I guess one could check the texts for awathe and awadhaN and try to analize the context. /The/ is clearly the favored particle for the temporal 'when clause' conjunction, though I have seen /dhaN/ and even /khe/ in that capacity. The characterization of /the/ as representing situations contrary to entropy is interesting. I'll keep it in mind! From munro at ucla.edu Mon Apr 12 18:37:19 2004 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 11:37:19 -0700 Subject: Linguistic term needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This was a new one on me, so I searched online and found that "paronomasia" seems to be a more common spelling, for what that's worth. (The dictionary seems to think it means about the same as "punning".) A useful term. Pam Rory M Larson wrote: > > > > >>I believe the term paranomasia fits the bill. At least, that's what I >> >> >call > > >>it my work. This happens occasionally in Native America historically. >> >> >I've > > >>seen a couple of examples in the Midwest. >> >> > >Thanks, Michael! > >Yow! What a mouthful! > >Rory > > > > > > Michael Mccafferty > u> cc: > Sent by: Subject: Re: Linguistic term needed > owner-siouan at lists.c > olorado.edu > > > 04/12/2004 06:50 AM > Please respond to > siouan > > > > > > >I believe the term paranomasia fits the bill. At least, that's what I call >it my work. This happens occasionally in Native America historically. I've >seen a couple of examples in the Midwest. > >Michael > > > >On Sun, 11 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > > >> >> >>Does anybody have a proper linguistic term for the phenomenon >>of borrowing a word from a foreign language in such a way as to >>build a native construction that approximately chimes with the >>phonological sequence of the original? I've been using "pun", >>but I suspect there's a more appropriate term for it. >> >>Thanks! >>Rory >> >> >> >> >> > >"Those are my principles. >If you don't like them, >I have others." > >-Groucho Marx > > >"When I was born I was >so surprised that I didn't >talk for a year and a half." > >-Gracie Allen > > > > > > > -- ---- Pamela Munro Professor, Department of Linguistics, UCLA UCLA Box 951543 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 USA http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/linguistics/people/munro/munro.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 12 18:39:55 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 13:39:55 -0500 Subject: Linguistic term needed Message-ID: Hard to prove any sort of relation between ttu and su, but they're interesting nonetheless. The vowels are etymologically different but phonetically the same. In other words, Dakota [su] has proto-Siouan *u but Omaha [ttu] has Psi *o. They only coincide in the present. I still don't have a term for this. I hate cluttering up Linguistics with more Greek and Latin terms, but I gotta admit Michael's term sounds classy. Bob > Or actually, how about this one? I've noticed that words for metals in MVS languages are commonly compounds of 'metal' plus a color term. Thus, 'white metal' is silver, 'black metal' is iron, 'red metal' is copper, and 'yellow metal' is brass. (Gold is 'yellow silver', or 'yellow white metal'.) In OP, the word for lead is moNze tu, 'blue metal'. But in Dakota, lead is maNza su, which also means 'bullet'. Apparently the Dakota word was influenced by the Omaha term phonologically, but since the Omaha word for 'blue', tu, had shifted so far from the Dakota word tho, the Dakota reinterpreted the Omaha tu into Dakota su, meaning 'seed' or 'pellet'. Thus, it came out as 'metal pellet', which served them both as the substance 'lead', and for the bullets that are made of that substance. From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 12 18:51:51 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 13:51:51 -0500 Subject: OP /the/ vs. /dhaN/ Message-ID: I found 'hand' and 'bow' and some other nouns were always the same throughout the Dorsey texts. Other nouns can vary, but the use was derivational, not inflectional. In other words, a noun like tti 'house' would be tti=the but tti=dhaN wasn't just a squat house like a bark lodge or earth lodge, but rather 'the camp circle'. At least this was so with the Kaw analogs. So I don't think it pays to try to be too "scientific" in trying to analyze the semantic content of the different articles; the system is semi-arbitrary (for e.g. abstract nouns), like all such systems, no matter what. Dorsey does systematically divide the singular from the collective senses of the articles, with the articles doing a "round robin" in a collective context. He tries to justify this with his "bundle" or "heap" notions, but the results seem a bit half-assed at best. Bob >> OP /the/ is actually pretty complicated in its usage. It can refer >> to a standing inanimate thing, like a post or a house, but it is >> perhaps most commonly used to refer to ordered sets of things, like >> (an armload of) rocks, or both members of a set of paired body parts. >> Thus, one leg would be /khe/, "elongate", but both legs would be >> /the/, "the set". One eye would be /dhaN/, "globular", but both eyes >> would be /the/. A single hand, however, is still /the/, I suppose >> because all the fingers composing it are regarded as a set. > Or maybe hands are just upright things? Well, hands can come in various positions, and I suppose if From FurbeeL at missouri.edu Mon Apr 12 19:14:49 2004 From: FurbeeL at missouri.edu (Louanna Furbee) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 14:14:49 -0500 Subject: Fw: Fw: [Lexicog] new nosey word In-Reply-To: <000901c41fd9$7777f110$0c650945@JIMM> Message-ID: >Jimm, Think of the way we say "butter" - the second syllable has >only the "r" for a syllable center - the function a vowel would >usually have. "Little" works the same way, with the "l" as the >syllable center. Louanna >----- Original Message ----- >From: "LONSKY,JIRI" >To: "Jimm GoodTracks" >Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2004 3:15 AM >Subject: Re: Fw: [Lexicog] new nosey word > > >Yes, it is true. Some of our consonants are so called >"syllable-forming", r, l, m; practically their ability to stand in >for a wovel is related to the possibility to hold a length (like >rrrrrrr and llll, while in other consonants this is not possible >(b, p, k, t etc.) These then cannot be syllable forming. >I had an interesting conversation a while ago with a Czech man in >New mexico who brought to my attention close linguistic ties >between the Basque language and Czech. Amazing. >Hope you are well, >Jiri > >On Sat Apr 10 20:37:58 EDT 2004, Jimm GoodTracks > wrote: > >> Jiri! >> Is this true that Czech has words without vowels?? If so, how do >> they >> pronounce the words?? >> Jimm >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jan Ullrich" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 4:09 AM >> Subject: RE: [Lexicog] new nosey word >> Fritz >> >> In Czech, my native language, probably the longest word without >> vowels is >> ?scvrnkls?. It means something like ?you pushed it away with you >> finger?. >> I think most of the Czech vowel-less words usually have about >> three to five >> consonants, but quite frequently they can be combined into >> sentences, >> similar to the famous Czech tongue twister: >> >> Strc prst skrz krk. (Stick your finger through your throat.) >> >> In such Czech words it is indeed ?r? and ?l? that are >> phonetically >> vowel-like. >> Jan Ullrich >> Lakota Language Revitalization Project >> Indiana University, Bloomington >> www.lakotalanguage.org >> -- Prof. N. Louanna Furbee Department of Anthropology 107 Swallow Hall University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65211 USA Telephones: 573/882-9408 (office) 573/882-4731 (department) 573/446-0932 (home) 573/884-5450 (fax) E-mail: FurbeeL at missouri.edu From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Apr 12 21:11:36 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 16:11:36 -0500 Subject: Linguistic term needed In-Reply-To: <407AE1DF.1000306@ucla.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Pam, for the spelling update. I also searched online--at "paranomasia" and found a bunch of sites. But your spelling, with that nice -onom- makes the term look more like something used in linguistics than something used in Freud's clinic. Michael On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Pamela Munro wrote: > This was a new one on me, so I searched online and found that > "paronomasia" seems to be a more common spelling, for what that's worth. > (The dictionary seems to think it means about the same as "punning".) A > useful term. > > Pam > > > Rory M Larson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>I believe the term paranomasia fits the bill. At least, that's what I > >> > >> > >call > > > > > >>it my work. This happens occasionally in Native America historically. > >> > >> > >I've > > > > > >>seen a couple of examples in the Midwest. > >> > >> > > > >Thanks, Michael! > > > >Yow! What a mouthful! > > > >Rory > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael Mccafferty > > > u> cc: > > Sent by: Subject: Re: Linguistic term needed > > owner-siouan at lists.c > > olorado.edu > > > > > > 04/12/2004 06:50 AM > > Please respond to > > siouan > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I believe the term paranomasia fits the bill. At least, that's what I call > >it my work. This happens occasionally in Native America historically. I've > >seen a couple of examples in the Midwest. > > > >Michael > > > > > > > >On Sun, 11 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > > > > > > >> > >> > >>Does anybody have a proper linguistic term for the phenomenon > >>of borrowing a word from a foreign language in such a way as to > >>build a native construction that approximately chimes with the > >>phonological sequence of the original? I've been using "pun", > >>but I suspect there's a more appropriate term for it. > >> > >>Thanks! > >>Rory > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > >"Those are my principles. > >If you don't like them, > >I have others." > > > >-Groucho Marx > > > > > >"When I was born I was > >so surprised that I didn't > >talk for a year and a half." > > > >-Gracie Allen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > ---- > Pamela Munro > Professor, Department of Linguistics, UCLA > UCLA Box 951543 > Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 USA > http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/linguistics/people/munro/munro.htm > > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Mon Apr 12 21:10:05 2004 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 14:10:05 -0700 Subject: Linguistic term needed In-Reply-To: <407AE1DF.1000306@ucla.edu> Message-ID: Are these also paronomasia? I've heard that the Oneidas in Wisconsin refer to Swedes with the Oneida word for "sweet". And they used to refer to Lounsbury with their word for "lunch". --Wally From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Apr 12 21:46:04 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 16:46:04 -0500 Subject: Linguistic term needed In-Reply-To: <17051109.1081779005@[192.168.2.34]> Message-ID: I'd say so, Wally. Michael On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Wallace Chafe wrote: > Are these also paronomasia? I've heard that the Oneidas in Wisconsin refer > to Swedes with the Oneida word for "sweet". And they used to refer to > Lounsbury with their word for "lunch". > --Wally > > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Apr 12 21:45:02 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 16:45:02 -0500 Subject: Misere (Re: Linguistic term needed) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > Right. There were no monks. David Costa explains this ethnonym is > > "Miami-Illinois Tribe Names," Proceedings of the Thirty-first Algonquian > > Conference (2000): 30-53. > > > > The Miami-Illinois term is /mooyiinkweena/ [mooyiingweena]. > > |mooyi-iinkwee-na| 'shit'-'face'-independent animate indefinite actor > > suffix. > > > In a paper of mine on the place name "Missouri," published last year by > > the onomastic journal Names, I present a short history of the ethnonym > > /mooyiinkweena/. ("On the birthday and etymology of the place name > > Missouri," Names 51.2 (2003), 31-45. > > Well, Michael, what do you think about the plausibility of > Misre/Misera as nicknames for Ste. Genevive being > paranomasia(dic?) (paranomadic?) for Missouri/Misuri? Looks--and better, sounds--very promising. Quite plausible. I realize St(e). > Genevieve is further from the mouth of the Missouri than St. Louis, but I > have the impression Missouri was used a territorial name for the > trans-Mississippi (from your point of view), while Illinois (Ylineses) was > used for the cis-Mississippi. (Surely Ste. Genevieve des Missouris would > be too good for anyone to pass up? And if they failed to pass it up too > many times in a row, they'd have to move to St. Louis.) Ste. Genevieve > was *the* settlement in the trans-Mississippi or Missouri opposite > Illinois for a while until Laclede refused to trust his merchanidise to a > site that was flooded annually and established himself at St. Louis > instead. > > I should mention that I've suggested and Michael has rejected the > possibility that Pain Court might be a similiar handling of a compound > like Pez-Caos (Peoria-Cahokia), The spoiler, c'est moi. both groups being near St. Louis at its > founding, with the Peoria later absorbing the Cahokia, but I'm not sure > the resemblance is all that close (less than Misere - Missouri even) and > Michael points out that there don't seem to be other examples hyphenated > names like this. Actually, I'm pretty sure Dave noted that. But I would support him. Also, the Peoria were rather diffusely settled in a > number of places, including Kaskaskia, and seem to have moved quite a bit > and Cao is already associated with another settlement. Note that Cahokia > (or Cao) was the settlement in Illinois more or less opposite St. Louis or > Pain Court, while Kaskasia (Kas or aux Kas or Oka) was more or less > opposite Ste. Genevieve or Misere. > > I haven't quite given up on just Pez as a source for Pain, with Court > making the joke, but I know of no attestation Pez = St. Louis. I still like the /piikoor-/ 'muddy boat' theory. The sound of that sounds so much like 'pain court'. Michael From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Apr 12 22:12:09 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 17:12:09 -0500 Subject: Linguistic term needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One possible case of paronomasia in Indiana occurred when the Potawatomi apparently borrowed an established Miami name for Lake Maxinkukee. The Miami name is /meenkahsenahkiki/ 'it is big stone land' (referring to glacier-transported boulders). Phonetically, this is [meengahsenahkiki] The Potawatomi called the lake /m at gz@nk at kik/ 'at the shoe land;. (@ = schwa) The other one that comes to mind has a stranger story. The Miami name for the west fork of the White River in Indiana, a longlived term first collected by La Salle in the 1680s (though he never saw the river) and still used by the Miami in the early 1900s is /waapikami(i)ki/ '(it is) white water'. When the Unami settled in what is now Indiana in the last couple of decades of the 1700s, they referred to the river as /0:p:i:k:ami':k:a/ 'that which is a white house'. (0= open o). This would seem like an open-and-shut case of paronomasia. Problem is, the French were referring to the White River by 1748 as "la Maison blanche". Tricky. Michael > > On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Wallace Chafe wrote: > > > Are these also paronomasia? I've heard that the Oneidas in Wisconsin refer > > to Swedes with the Oneida word for "sweet". And they used to refer to > > Lounsbury with their word for "lunch". > > --Wally > > > > > > > > > > "Those are my principles. > If you don't like them, > I have others." > > -Groucho Marx > > > "When I was born I was > so surprised that I didn't > talk for a year and a half." > > -Gracie Allen > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Apr 12 22:32:53 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 17:32:53 -0500 Subject: Linguistic term needed Message-ID: > Hard to prove any sort of relation between ttu and su, but they're > interesting nonetheless. The vowels are etymologically different but > phonetically the same. In other words, Dakota [su] has proto-Siouan *u > but Omaha [ttu] has Psi *o. They only coincide in the present. It may be coincidence, but the resemblance seems striking to me. Most of the basic metal terms in OP, Osage (?) and Dakota seem to follow that 'metal' + color pattern where I could find them attested. But the Dakota term differs right on that one point,where they come up with a very different morphological and semantic expression that happens to match the Omaha term phonologically except for the one consonant: OP maNze ttu => Da maNza su "blue metal" "metal seed" "lead" "lead" or OP,Os. maNze maN "bullet" "metal arrow" "bullet" I'm guessing these words were adopted probably around the latter half of the 18th century, so the OP *o => *u sound shift should already have taken place. I'm supposing that Dakotan speakers picked up the term from OP speakers but misheard it in such a way as to apply paronomasia in making it their own. (There! I actually used the word!) Do we have the term for 'lead' (the metal) in any other MVS languages? It wasn't listed in La Flesche's Osage dictionary. Rory "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent by: cc: owner-siouan at lists.c Subject: RE: Linguistic term needed olorado.edu 04/12/2004 01:39 PM Please respond to siouan Hard to prove any sort of relation between ttu and su, but they're interesting nonetheless. The vowels are etymologically different but phonetically the same. In other words, Dakota [su] has proto-Siouan *u but Omaha [ttu] has Psi *o. They only coincide in the present. I still don't have a term for this. I hate cluttering up Linguistics with more Greek and Latin terms, but I gotta admit Michael's term sounds classy. Bob > Or actually, how about this one? I've noticed that words for metals in MVS languages are commonly compounds of 'metal' plus a color term. Thus, 'white metal' is silver, 'black metal' is iron, 'red metal' is copper, and 'yellow metal' is brass. (Gold is 'yellow silver', or 'yellow white metal'.) In OP, the word for lead is moNze tu, 'blue metal'. But in Dakota, lead is maNza su, which also means 'bullet'. Apparently the Dakota word was influenced by the Omaha term phonologically, but since the Omaha word for 'blue', tu, had shifted so far from the Dakota word tho, the Dakota reinterpreted the Omaha tu into Dakota su, meaning 'seed' or 'pellet'. Thus, it came out as 'metal pellet', which served them both as the substance 'lead', and for the bullets that are made of that substance. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 12 22:30:01 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 16:30:01 -0600 Subject: Linguistic term needed In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164E10@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > In OP, the word for lead is moNze tu, 'blue metal'. But in Dakota, lead > is maNza su, which also means 'bullet'. Apparently the Dakota word was > influenced by the Omaha term phonologically, but since the Omaha word > for 'blue', tu, had shifted so far from the Dakota word tho, the Dakota > reinterpreted the Omaha tu into Dakota su, meaning 'seed' or 'pellet'. > Thus, it came out as 'metal pellet', which served them both as the > substance 'lead', and for the bullets that are made of that substance. I'm not sure I see how this influence would work. It would be easier if it was within in a single language, but then the vowels aren't right, as you indicate. It's not clear that the sound change in question were so scheduled as to be useful. They could easily have been pre-bullet. OP vowel shifting is so transparent it's very hard to date. If you could do it with bullets, that would certainly be nice. Anoher problem: how would the Dakotas know what the Omahas were doing in this line and why would it influence them? In fact, given the size and complexity of the Dakota community I'd even expect some regional variation in forms like this within it. On the whole it seems simpler to assume completely independent development with coincidental vowels. I think OP has maNze-maN 'metal arrows', which also doesn't refer to lead. However, I've seen archaeological references to metal arrowheads being cut out of old kettles, and such, so perhaps a development from actual arrow heads to bullets is reflected in the OP term. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Apr 12 22:45:49 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 17:45:49 -0500 Subject: Linguistic term needed Message-ID: Wally wrote: > Are these also paronomasia? I've heard that the Oneidas in Wisconsin refer > to Swedes with the Oneida word for "sweet". And they used to refer to > Lounsbury with their word for "lunch". It sounds like this is even more complicated. First they applied paronomasia to conceptually translate the foreign name into English, and then they calqued that English pun into their own language. Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 12 22:41:43 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 16:41:43 -0600 Subject: Paronomastics (Re: Linguistic term needed) In-Reply-To: <17051109.1081779005@[192.168.2.34]> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Wallace Chafe wrote: > Are these also paronomasia? I've heard that the Oneidas in Wisconsin refer > to Swedes with the Oneida word for "sweet". And they used to refer to > Lounsbury with their word for "lunch". Sounds like they qualify to me. Miner lists the Winnebago word for rabbit (Was^c^iNk) in his Winnebago Field Lexicon with the gloss "Wisconsin Rapids." I think he comments that there might be a mishearing, but it sounds like either a passing joke or paronomasia - in essence a form of institutionalized joke. Another candidate, from Dakota: yuta 'to eat' for Ute in Buechel, with the comment, unsupported anywhere I've seen, that the Utes were perhaps considered to be canibals. I have a feeling that there are others of these I'm not remembering at the moment. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 12 22:52:03 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 16:52:03 -0600 Subject: Linguistic term needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Thanks, Pam, for the spelling update. I also searched online--at > "paranomasia" and found a bunch of sites. But your spelling, with that > nice -onom- makes the term look more like something used in linguistics > than something used in Freud's clinic. If I recall correctly, Greek 'name' is onoma (plural onomata, so a t-stem, not a feminine in -a or -e). The o is critical in certain laryngeal theory examples. The para prefix is Greek, too, and loses final a before a vowel, e.g., parody, parousia 'Presence' or, in a more linguistic vein, proparoyxtone 'stressed before the penultimate'. Webster says paronomasia < paronomazein 'to call with a slight change of name', defined as a play on words or, in short, a pun. Also listed, paronym, paronymous 'formed from a word in another language, having a form similar to that of a cognate foreign word'. I suppose 'cognate' here had better be understood as 'resemblant'! From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Tue Apr 13 04:28:57 2004 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 21:28:57 -0700 Subject: Bilingual paronomasia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rory is right. The Oneida words themselves don't sound anything like "sweet" or "lunch". An Oneida speaker would know that the Oneida word means "sweet" in English, and that "sweet" and "Swede" sound similar. Relevant to the second example is the fact that some Oneidas evidently referred to Lounsbury as Lunchberry, at least jokingly. Similar is a little Seneca story in which people went fishing for bass in a basswood tree. Again, the Seneca word for "bass" (the fish) makes a Seneca speaker think of the English word, which is then ambiguous between the fish and the tree. The story would make absolutely no sense without the bilingualism. Should we call this bilingual paronomasia? It all reminds me of something I wrote in Hinton and Munro, Studies in American Indian Languages (UCPL 131, 1998) on Polysynthetic Puns. One of my examples was based on the fact that Seneca o'gi' da:g can mean "I said 'dog'", where o'gi' is "I said" and da:g is western NY for "dog". But if the whole thing is run together as a single Seneca word, it means "I ate shit". People love to laugh at this kind of thing. --Wally > Wally wrote: >> Are these also paronomasia? I've heard that the Oneidas in Wisconsin > refer >> to Swedes with the Oneida word for "sweet". And they used to refer to >> Lounsbury with their word for "lunch". > > It sounds like this is even more complicated. First they > applied paronomasia to conceptually translate the foreign > name into English, and then they calqued that English pun > into their own language. > > Rory > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 13 17:44:42 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 11:44:42 -0600 Subject: Bilingual paronomasia In-Reply-To: <43383046.1081805337@[192.168.2.34]> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Wallace Chafe wrote: > Should we call this bilingual paronomasia? I was tempted to suggest proparonomasia and whatever the proper Greek form would be for "post"-paranomasia, depending on whether the word play occurred in the source language or the borrowing language. I haven't seen any example so far that involved both. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 13 17:53:16 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 11:53:16 -0600 Subject: Linguistic term needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: Actually, this paragraph was from Rory, which I knew, but I mangled the editing of the quotative particles: > On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > In OP, the word for lead is moNze tu, 'blue metal'. But in Dakota, lead > > is maNza su, which also means 'bullet'. Apparently the Dakota word was > > influenced by the Omaha term phonologically, ... From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Apr 14 04:39:09 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 23:39:09 -0500 Subject: Pigs Message-ID: I'm wondering about an article I understand Alan Hartley wrote relating the "kukusi" term for 'pig' to French cochon (sp?). Bob told me about this last summer, but I seem to have misplaced the reference. Could someone point me to it again? Thanks! Rory From rankin at ku.edu Wed Apr 14 13:34:24 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 08:34:24 -0500 Subject: Pigs Message-ID: It was Allan Taylor at CU. I don't remember where he published it, but no doubt someone will. A large number of us contributed data for it. Bob > I'm wondering about an article I understand Alan Hartley > wrote relating the "kukusi" term for 'pig' to French > cochon (sp?). Bob told me about this last summer, but > I seem to have misplaced the reference. Could someone > point me to it again? > > Thanks! > Rory From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Apr 14 14:06:26 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 09:06:26 -0500 Subject: Pigs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rory M Larson wrote: > I'm wondering about an article I understand Alan Hartley > wrote relating the "kukusi" term for 'pig' to French > cochon (sp?). It wasn't me, though I might have pointed out Ojibway ko:kko:s^ is perhaps from Fr. cochon (though frankly, I don't even remember having done that!) Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 14 17:38:37 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:38:37 -0600 Subject: Pigs In-Reply-To: <003801c42225$464b97b0$1ab5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > It was Allan Taylor at CU. I don't remember where he published it, but no doubt > someone will. A large number of us contributed data for it. It is not in the Siouan bib page at http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/siouan_language.html that John Boyle maintains. Search the Web with Allan Taylor pig cochon, or consult the MSA annual indexes and/or Bibliographie Linguistique, the last two being the more reliable technique, but not always the fastest. Allan also has an article on horse terms, I believe. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Apr 14 17:44:41 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:44:41 -0500 Subject: Pigs Message-ID: Oops! Sorry, Alan. I thought I had remembered the name. Apologies to all for another case of misattribution! Rory > It was Allan Taylor at CU. I don't remember where he published it, but no doubt > someone will. A large number of us contributed data for it. > > Bob >> I'm wondering about an article I understand Alan Hartley >> wrote relating the "kukusi" term for 'pig' to French >> cochon (sp?). Bob told me about this last summer, but >> I seem to have misplaced the reference. Could someone >> point me to it again? >> >> Thanks! >> Rory From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Wed Apr 14 17:50:20 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:50:20 -0600 Subject: Pigs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Allan's article was published in Anthropological Linguistics 32 (1990):187-210. It's entitled "A European Loanword of Early Date in Eastern North America. He says it's the most wide-spread loanword on the continent. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > > It was Allan Taylor at CU. I don't remember where he published it, but no doubt > > someone will. A large number of us contributed data for it. > > It is not in the Siouan bib page at > http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/siouan_language.html that John Boyle > maintains. > > Search the Web with Allan Taylor pig cochon, or consult the MSA annual > indexes and/or Bibliographie Linguistique, the last two being the more > reliable technique, but not always the fastest. Allan also has an article > on horse terms, I believe. > From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Wed Apr 14 18:05:02 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:05:02 -0600 Subject: buffalo, coyote Message-ID: John thought Allan Taylor had also written a "horse" paper, but I don't think so. He has one on "buffalo" in the southeastern languages in IJAL 42 (1976), pp.165-66 and one on coyote (actually on the wolf/dog/coyote as a symbol of lust among Plains tribes) in the 1985 IJAL issue dedicated to Eric Hamp (pp597-599). David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 14 18:33:28 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:33:28 -0600 Subject: buffalo, coyote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > John thought Allan Taylor had also written a "horse" paper, but I don't > think so. Maybe I'm misrembering who wrote it? Or maybe I just remember some general comments made in a class? From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Apr 14 21:50:47 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 16:50:47 -0500 Subject: Pigs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for the information. What's interesting, at least to me, about this is that the phonologically salient part of the French word for pig, "cochon," that would be the source of these borrowings is /$o~/, not /ku$/ ($ = sh, o~ = nasalized /o/). Maybe the first Frenchmen who used the word with native folks said it slowly. Michael On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > > Allan's article was published in Anthropological Linguistics 32 > (1990):187-210. It's entitled "A European Loanword of Early Date in > Eastern North America. He says it's the most wide-spread loanword on the > continent. > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > > > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > > > It was Allan Taylor at CU. I don't remember where he published it, but no doubt > > > someone will. A large number of us contributed data for it. > > > > It is not in the Siouan bib page at > > http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/siouan_language.html that John Boyle > > maintains. > > > > Search the Web with Allan Taylor pig cochon, or consult the MSA annual > > indexes and/or Bibliographie Linguistique, the last two being the more > > reliable technique, but not always the fastest. Allan also has an article > > on horse terms, I believe. > > > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From are2 at buffalo.edu Thu Apr 15 04:42:35 2004 From: are2 at buffalo.edu (are2 at buffalo.edu) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 00:42:35 -0400 Subject: OP /the/ vs. /dhaN/ (Re: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I can't resist putting in my 2 cents about articles. >> OP /the/ is actually pretty complicated in its usage. It can > refer to a > >> standing inanimate thing, like a post or a house, but it is > perhaps most > >> commonly used to refer to ordered sets of things, like (an armload > of) > >> rocks, or both members of a set of paired body parts. Thus, one > leg > >> would be /khe/, "elongate", but both legs would be /the/, "the > set". One > >> eye would be /dhaN/, "globular", but both eyes would be /the/. A > single > >> hand, however, is still /the/, I suppose because all the fingers > >> composing it are regarded as a set. Ok, I am not sure about how these were elicited but the pairs of body parts associated with a given individual take the singular article in most of the data I have seen produced naturally. Ex. Zhibe kHe abita-a. > > Or maybe hands are just upright things? > > Well, hands can come in various positions, and I suppose if > the speaker wanted to emphasize a hand laid out flat they could > use /khe/, or a fist might be /dhaN/. I'll try to check with > the speakers on that. But the expected default for a hand in > general without specifying anything about its position seems > to be /the/. > > I don't think that the distinction of /the/ as 'vertical' > and /khe/ as 'horizontal' really holds as such. I'm pretty > sure I've seen more than one instance in Dorsey referring to > a rope or swing hanging down from a tree, i.e. vertical, and > the positional used for it was /khe/, not /the/. I think /khe/ > basically means 'elongate', or perhaps 'superficial'. For a > vertical thing to be /the/, I believe it has to be actually > standing upright, not hanging. > > I don't know how it works in other Dhegihan languages, but in > OP I think the essence of /the/ is 'ordered, founded thing', > something set up like a post or house, something that > obviously exists in defiance of entropy; or something that is > right there, just so, at a specific spot; or a well-defined > set of things that are tied together somehow. The latter > usage nicely contrasts with /ge/, meaning 'scattered things' > not linked together belonging to an unbounded set. > > > >> I think that /the/ also refers to very precisely located points, > vs. > >> /dhaN/, which implies a general area if referring to a location. > > > This materializes in the temporal use of /the/ and /dhaN/, e.g., in > 'when' > > uses. > > Yes. My impression has been that /the/ was used for an > instant of time, while /dhaN/ referred to a period. I never > found enough examples to be quite sure about this though. > > Rory > > > From are2 at buffalo.edu Thu Apr 15 15:23:42 2004 From: are2 at buffalo.edu (are2 at buffalo.edu) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 11:23:42 -0400 Subject: OP /the/ vs. /dhaN/ (Re: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved) In-Reply-To: <1082004155.407e12bb9105c@mail4.buffalo.edu> Message-ID: Whoops, I have a bandaid on one finger and accidentally hit send somehow too early. Sorry. Below is the whole message. > >> OP /the/ is actually pretty complicated in its usage. It can > > refer to a > > >> standing inanimate thing, like a post or a house, but it is > > perhaps most > > >> commonly used to refer to ordered sets of things, like (an > armload > > of) > > >> rocks, or both members of a set of paired body parts. Thus, one > > leg > > >> would be /khe/, "elongate", but both legs would be /the/, "the > > set". One > > >> eye would be /dhaN/, "globular", but both eyes would be /the/. > A single hand, however, is still /the/, I suppose because all the fingers > > >> composing it are regarded as a set. > Ok, I am not sure about how these were elicited but the pairs of body parts associated with a given individual have taken the singular article in most of the data I have seen produced naturally. Ex. Zhibe kHe abita-a. leg the touch-Femal command 'Touch your leg(s).' This is ambiguous between singular and plural. I'll try to elicit some of these in case the times I've heard have all somehow been singular. (this is possible. I can't recall purposely eliciting these.) ...> > I don't think that the distinction of /the/ as 'vertical' > > and /khe/ as 'horizontal' really holds as such. I'm pretty > > sure I've seen more than one instance in Dorsey referring to > > a rope or swing hanging down from a tree, i.e. vertical, and > > the positional used for it was /khe/, not /the/. I think /khe/ > > basically means 'elongate', or perhaps 'superficial'. For a > > vertical thing to be /the/, I believe it has to be actually > > standing upright, not hanging. I think this is easiliest explained through a concept of canonical position. Similar to hanging ropes, pencils standing up in a jar or in your hand still get kHe. It is their at rest position or how they are canonically conceptualized in Omaha. SImilarly a cup on its side still gets tHe and not kHe. > > I don't know how it works in other Dhegihan languages, but in > > OP I think the essence of /the/ is 'ordered, founded thing', > > something set up like a post or house, something that > > obviously exists in defiance of entropy; or something that is > > right there, just so, at a specific spot; or a well-defined > > set of things that are tied together somehow. The latter > > usage nicely contrasts with /ge/, meaning 'scattered things' > > not linked together belonging to an unbounded set. Not quite so simple as ordered/bounded. Ge is used as the plural of tHe type objects even when they are not scattered and are bounded. Ex. NiuthatoN ge 'the cups' This set of plural cups can be well-ordered and bounded. It is the opposition of two articles which is used to create a sense of plurality rather than order/disorder. Also, I am not in support of a defiance of entropy account. This seems great for massive objects (houses, trees, poles) but what about cups? Do these defy entropy more than a pencil or blackboard (kHe) or a table or flower (dhoN)? > > Yes. My impression has been that /the/ was used for an > > instant of time, while /dhaN/ referred to a period. I never > > found enough examples to be quite sure about this though. Hmmm. I like this but have to offer a counterexample: Hidhai tHe-di 'On Saturday' This is not very instantaneous or particularly well-defined. It is bounded but refers to a general period. My jury is still out on the time pattern. -Ardis All of my above info/examples/analysis are from chapter 3.6.2 (the inanimate articles) of my (will the agony ever end? in progress) dissertation and have been understood through the patience and kindness of the Elders I work with (esp. Mrs. Alice Saunsoci and Mrs. Marcella Cayou). Misanalysis is my responsibility. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Apr 15 18:58:17 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 12:58:17 -0600 Subject: Lakota Language Consortium site & Jan Ullrich's Lakota site Message-ID: Repost from SSILA Bulletin 208. I apologize for the repost, because many members of the list will also be members of SSILA. However, a substantial number are not, and many of them would be specifically interested in this article. More information on SSILA at http://www.ssila.org. __________________________________________________________________________ * Lakota Language Consortium site & Jan Ullrich's Lakota site ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "Many Voices, One Language" is the new website of the Lakota Language Consortium, a group of educational institutions, communities and indi- viduals committed to halting the loss of the Lakota language on the northern plains. Developed with technical assistance from the American Indian Studies Research Institute at Indiana University, the LLC site has pages devoted to language loss (showing the results of recent alarming surveys), revitalization strategies, the structure of the LLC initiative, and language materials development. There are also links to several other sites, including the Lakota Language Show that is broadcast weekly on KILI-FM. The URL is: http://www.lakotalanguage.org The language materials being developed by LLC (samples are shown of a multimedia lesson and of a K-3 level textbook) draw on the expertise of the Czech linguist, Jan Ullrich, who also maintains his own -- very impressive -- Lakota/Dakota/Assiniboine site ("Lakhota Language"): http://www.inext.cz/siouan Ullrich's site offers a detailed on-line textbook of Lakota and a number of text files, most with a word-by-word dictionary lookup and some with paragraph-by-paragraph sound files. Texts include samples from George Bushotter's and Ella Deloria's collections, among others. From Rgraczyk at aol.com Fri Apr 16 15:55:32 2004 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Randolph Graczyk) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 11:55:32 EDT Subject: Paronomastics (Re: Linguistic term needed) Message-ID: The Crow name for Hardin, Montana (town adjacent to the reservation) is chichu'che 'hard'. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Fri Apr 16 20:52:40 2004 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Q.) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 15:52:40 -0500 Subject: Paronomastics (Re: Linguistic term needed) In-Reply-To: <12e.3f890124.2db15bf4@aol.com> Message-ID: Osages used to be fond of using we'hice 'far' in English sentences with exaggerated intonation on the we- part: "way-hice far". Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of Rgraczyk at aol.com Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 10:56 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Paronomastics (Re: Linguistic term needed) The Crow name for Hardin, Montana (town adjacent to the reservation) is chichu'che 'hard'. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sun Apr 18 14:07:46 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 09:07:46 -0500 Subject: Sorry, new term is worn out. Message-ID: It's finally happened. My university's " SPAM SCORER software as declared any message with "paronomastics" in the subject line to be "spam" and assigned it a score of four stars (see below). Apparently it thinks you're trying to sell me drugs, a new mortgage or potency pills. I caught it by accident as I usually delete all spam scored messages en masse when returning from out of town. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carolyn Q." To: Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 3:52 PM Subject: [Spam:***** SpamScore] RE: Paronomastics (Re: Linguistic term needed) From rankin at ku.edu Sun Apr 18 14:11:00 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 09:11:00 -0500 Subject: [Spam:****** SpamScore] Re: Paronomastics (Re: Linguistic term needed) Message-ID: Whoops, it got Randy too, but his got 6 stars, probably because of the larger font! See, size DOES matter! Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 10:55 AM Subject: [Spam:****** SpamScore] Re: Paronomastics (Re: Linguistic term needed) > The Crow name for Hardin, Montana (town adjacent to the reservation) is > chichu'che 'hard'. > > Randy > From rankin at ku.edu Sun Apr 18 14:33:50 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 09:33:50 -0500 Subject: Pigs Message-ID: I don't think kkokko$a, etc. are based directly on "cochon". A more colloquial reduplicated form is favored. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Mccafferty" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 4:50 PM Subject: Re: Pigs > Thanks for the information. > > What's interesting, at least to me, about this is that the phonologically > salient part of the French word for pig, "cochon," that would be the > source of these borrowings is /$o~/, not /ku$/ ($ = sh, o~ = nasalized > /o/). Maybe the first Frenchmen who used the word with native folks said > it slowly. > > Michael > > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > > > > > Allan's article was published in Anthropological Linguistics 32 > > (1990):187-210. It's entitled "A European Loanword of Early Date in > > Eastern North America. He says it's the most wide-spread loanword on the > > continent. > > > > David S. Rood > > Dept. of Linguistics > > Univ. of Colorado > > 295 UCB > > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > > USA > > rood at colorado.edu > > > > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > > > > It was Allan Taylor at CU. I don't remember where he published it, but no doubt > > > > someone will. A large number of us contributed data for it. > > > > > > It is not in the Siouan bib page at > > > http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/siouan_language.html that John Boyle > > > maintains. > > > > > > Search the Web with Allan Taylor pig cochon, or consult the MSA annual > > > indexes and/or Bibliographie Linguistique, the last two being the more > > > reliable technique, but not always the fastest. Allan also has an article > > > on horse terms, I believe. > > > > > > > > > > > "Those are my principles. > If you don't like them, > I have others." > > -Groucho Marx > > > "When I was born I was > so surprised that I didn't > talk for a year and a half." > > -Gracie Allen > > From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Sun Apr 18 14:48:44 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 15:48:44 +0100 Subject: Pigs Message-ID: In a pig's eye, say I. I be forms of caballo are more widespread. They crop up in Pidgin Delaware, Wichita, and just about any language whose speakers interacted most closely with hispanophones, including Karankawa. In fact, fors of the word for 'horse' are the single Karankawa ter that occurs in the greatest number of Karankawa sources. Anthony >>> rood at spot.Colorado.EDU 14/04/2004 18:50:20 >>> Allan's article was published in Anthropological Linguistics 32 (1990):187-210. It's entitled "A European Loanword of Early Date in Eastern North America. He says it's the most wide-spread loanword on the continent. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > > It was Allan Taylor at CU. I don't remember where he published it, but no doubt > > someone will. A large number of us contributed data for it. > > It is not in the Siouan bib page at > http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/siouan_language.html that John Boyle > maintains. > > Search the Web with Allan Taylor pig cochon, or consult the MSA annual > indexes and/or Bibliographie Linguistique, the last two being the more > reliable technique, but not always the fastest. Allan also has an article > on horse terms, I believe. > From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Sun Apr 18 14:50:37 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 15:50:37 +0100 Subject: Pigs Message-ID: I forgot to mention that they also occur in Alsea and Siuslaw, as /tawayo/ (the first Europeans on that coast were explorers such as Juan de Heceta). Other languages of the area used a form of Chiook Jargon /kyutan/, itself a derivative of an older word for dog. Anthony >>> rood at spot.Colorado.EDU 14/04/2004 18:50:20 >>> Allan's article was published in Anthropological Linguistics 32 (1990):187-210. It's entitled "A European Loanword of Early Date in Eastern North America. He says it's the most wide-spread loanword on the continent. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > > It was Allan Taylor at CU. I don't remember where he published it, but no doubt > > someone will. A large number of us contributed data for it. > > It is not in the Siouan bib page at > http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/siouan_language.html that John Boyle > maintains. > > Search the Web with Allan Taylor pig cochon, or consult the MSA annual > indexes and/or Bibliographie Linguistique, the last two being the more > reliable technique, but not always the fastest. Allan also has an article > on horse terms, I believe. > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Apr 18 16:00:45 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:00:45 -0500 Subject: Sorry, new term is worn out. In-Reply-To: <005201c4254e$9b8889f0$10b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Excellent! And we can come with even weirder words. >:-) On Sun, 18 Apr 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > It's finally happened. My university's " SPAM SCORER software as declared any > message with "paronomastics" in the subject line to be "spam" and assigned it a > score of four stars (see below). Apparently it thinks you're trying to sell me > drugs, a new mortgage or potency pills. I caught it by accident as I usually > delete all spam scored messages en masse when returning from out of town. > > Bob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Carolyn Q." > To: > Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 3:52 PM > > Subject: [Spam:***** SpamScore] RE: Paronomastics (Re: Linguistic term needed) > > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Apr 18 16:04:37 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:04:37 -0500 Subject: Pigs In-Reply-To: <018201c42552$3e794f20$10b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Right. Found and read the article. Nice article. The Central Algonquian borrowing appears to have come from what Taylor terms a "simplex" form of "cochon"--"coche," and then he suggests that the borrowing came directly from a French pig call in the form of "co-coche". I don't know about that but I've sent out the question to native informants. (Species not specified) Michael On Sun, 18 Apr 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > I don't think kkokko$a, etc. are based directly on "cochon". A more colloquial > reduplicated form is favored. > > Bob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Mccafferty" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 4:50 PM > Subject: Re: Pigs > > > > Thanks for the information. > > > > What's interesting, at least to me, about this is that the phonologically > > salient part of the French word for pig, "cochon," that would be the > > source of these borrowings is /$o~/, not /ku$/ ($ = sh, o~ = nasalized > > /o/). Maybe the first Frenchmen who used the word with native folks said > > it slowly. > > > > Michael > > > > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > > > > > > > > Allan's article was published in Anthropological Linguistics 32 > > > (1990):187-210. It's entitled "A European Loanword of Early Date in > > > Eastern North America. He says it's the most wide-spread loanword on the > > > continent. > > > > > > David S. Rood > > > Dept. of Linguistics > > > Univ. of Colorado > > > 295 UCB > > > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > > > USA > > > rood at colorado.edu > > > > > > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > > > > > > > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > > > > > It was Allan Taylor at CU. I don't remember where he published it, but > no doubt > > > > > someone will. A large number of us contributed data for it. > > > > > > > > It is not in the Siouan bib page at > > > > http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/siouan_language.html that John Boyle > > > > maintains. > > > > > > > > Search the Web with Allan Taylor pig cochon, or consult the MSA annual > > > > indexes and/or Bibliographie Linguistique, the last two being the more > > > > reliable technique, but not always the fastest. Allan also has an article > > > > on horse terms, I believe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Those are my principles. > > If you don't like them, > > I have others." > > > > -Groucho Marx > > > > > > "When I was born I was > > so surprised that I didn't > > talk for a year and a half." > > > > -Gracie Allen > > > > > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Sun Apr 18 22:53:18 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 17:53:18 -0500 Subject: Pigs Message-ID: I found it too. Yes, it is a nice article. Thanks for the reference, everybody! Taylor actually suggests two different etymons: a Dutch hog call Kus^-kus^kus^, and a dialectal French form of cocoche or coucouche. The former version seems to have first been adopted in (Munsee) Delaware, then by all the northern Iroquoians, and then passed on to Micmac in the north and Shawnee in the south. This is what he calls the "Northeast" group, which uses /kos(^)kos(^)/ type forms that he calls "fully reduplicated". Excluding a New England /piks/ area (Maliseet, Penobscot, Western Abenaki and Narragansett) just about everything else south to northern Georgia and Alabama, Tennesee and Arkansas, west to the eastern Great Plains, and north clear to the Arctic uses /ko(h)kos(^)(@)/ type forms which he calls "incompletely reduplicated". These he attributes to cocoche or coucouche, but thinks it still must have been in the form of a hog call, since the French article doesn't appear in it. I'm not entirely convinced that there needs to be a separate original for the incompletely reduplicated forms. The basic words seem to be the same except that the first sibilant is lost or degraded. There seems to be some evidence of reinterpretation of the reduplication: Winnebago has something like xkuuxkuis^e, with an additional fricative tacked onto the front (perhaps because it didn't like reduplicating syllables that ended in a consonant?) And Iowa/Oto had two forms recorded: gohgo%a and an archaic go%go%a (here I'm using % for thorn, which is what *s turned into in IO). Perhaps the fully reduplicated form is the original international form, and the incompletely reduplicated form is due to native reformatting, plus later influence from French cocoche? Rory Michael Mccafferty cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: Pigs owner-siouan at lists.c olorado.edu 04/18/2004 11:04 AM Please respond to siouan Right. Found and read the article. Nice article. The Central Algonquian borrowing appears to have come from what Taylor terms a "simplex" form of "cochon"--"coche," and then he suggests that the borrowing came directly from a French pig call in the form of "co-coche". I don't know about that but I've sent out the question to native informants. (Species not specified) Michael On Sun, 18 Apr 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > I don't think kkokko$a, etc. are based directly on "cochon". A more colloquial > reduplicated form is favored. > > Bob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Mccafferty" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 4:50 PM > Subject: Re: Pigs > > > > Thanks for the information. > > > > What's interesting, at least to me, about this is that the phonologically > > salient part of the French word for pig, "cochon," that would be the > > source of these borrowings is /$o~/, not /ku$/ ($ = sh, o~ = nasalized > > /o/). Maybe the first Frenchmen who used the word with native folks said > > it slowly. > > > > Michael > > > > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > > > > > > > > Allan's article was published in Anthropological Linguistics 32 > > > (1990):187-210. It's entitled "A European Loanword of Early Date in > > > Eastern North America. He says it's the most wide-spread loanword on the > > > continent. > > > > > > David S. Rood > > > Dept. of Linguistics > > > Univ. of Colorado > > > 295 UCB > > > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > > > USA > > > rood at colorado.edu > > > > > > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > > > > > > > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > > > > > It was Allan Taylor at CU. I don't remember where he published it, but > no doubt > > > > > someone will. A large number of us contributed data for it. > > > > > > > > It is not in the Siouan bib page at > > > > http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/siouan_language.html that John Boyle > > > > maintains. > > > > > > > > Search the Web with Allan Taylor pig cochon, or consult the MSA annual > > > > indexes and/or Bibliographie Linguistique, the last two being the more > > > > reliable technique, but not always the fastest. Allan also has an article > > > > on horse terms, I believe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Those are my principles. > > If you don't like them, > > I have others." > > > > -Groucho Marx > > > > > > "When I was born I was > > so surprised that I didn't > > talk for a year and a half." > > > > -Gracie Allen > > > > > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 19 04:52:54 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 22:52:54 -0600 Subject: Pigs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > And Iowa/Oto had two forms recorded: gohgo%a and an archaic go%go%a > (here I'm using % for thorn, which is what *s turned into in IO). > Perhaps the fully reduplicated form is the original international form, > and the incompletely reduplicated form is due to native reformatting, > plus later influence from French cocoche? For what it's worth, IO has two paths by which earlier *sk develops. One is %k (or ^tk or 0k - theta + k). The other is hk. So you see both %ka and hka for *ska 'white'. My guess would be that IO originally had gosgosa, bearing mind that IO bdj^g are just the way simple (unaspirated) p^tck are written there, i.e., *koskosa. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 19 05:01:43 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 23:01:43 -0600 Subject: P-ronomastics (Re: Linguistic term needed) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This got lost in a time warp when I set it asside to verify a point. On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > It sounds like this is even more complicated. First they applied > paronomasia to conceptually translate the foreign name into English, and > then they calqued that English pun into their own language. Touche. This seems correct. Though I'm not sure whether we've been carefully distinguishing at what stage the pun occured. Missouri > Misere would hypothetically involve a pun on a loanword, as does moine (well, loan > truncation > pun ready made). Meiguo seems to involve a loan and then a pun, or a pun by way of adapting the phonology. Some of the other examples from Alfred's list seem more like the initial process here being elaborated upon with increasing ingenuity. In a way I think the Chinese cases are cases of using logographs to implement syllable spelling. Paincourt > PpahiN-something would seem to involve borrowing what might already be some form of pun, but not taken as such, into OP and then modifying it via a pun or at least "a slight modification." It occurs to me that Paincourt would come out more or less ppaiN kkudha or 'hair friend' if simply borrowed. Maybe personifying the 'friend' as Lewis - who would have been officially posing as a friend in his capacity as agent - led to the next step, through taking the hair as worth remarking on. We should also not lose track of the possibility that the Omaha-Ponca form came not straight from French, but via Kaw, Osage, and IO, as these groups were between the Omaha and St. Louis. I haven't heard of a name for St. Louis in any language but Omaha-Ponca (and, indirectly, in Blackfoot), but I assume that at once point any language spoken in the Missouri- Mississippi-Ohio drainages had a name for the place. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 19 05:05:24 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 23:05:24 -0600 Subject: A Couple of Suggestions as to Form of Postings Message-ID: It's a good idea to delete as much of the history of a letter off the end as possible when responding to it. You should generally retain only the parts you are specifically commenting on, with as much additional background as you think necessary to clarify matters. At least any elaborate signatures, and, as far as the previous history of a letter, you can rely on the archiving system to thread together things with the same subject line. This reduces the load on the archives and on downloads. If the subject changes, it's a good idea to change the Subject-line, perhaps initially including the original title with the rubric (was ...). John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Apr 19 13:16:51 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 08:16:51 -0500 Subject: Pigs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > > > > I found it too. Yes, it is a nice article. Thanks for > the reference, everybody! > > Taylor actually suggests two different etymons: a Dutch > hog call Kus^-kus^kus^, and a dialectal French form of > cocoche or coucouche. Problem is, cocoche or coucouche, or even coche appear to be unattested. "Cochon" is the French term. There's also an old term for a coach gate at a castle or manor house "porte-cochere". Here "porte" is "door". However, a modern French speaker would probably interpret that "porte" as "carry". So, "porte-cochere," just "portefeuille" or "portemanteau" sounds like something that carries pigs. Pig humor. This message segues into the round-up of pig calls known in French Canada. Michael From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Apr 19 13:23:25 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 08:23:25 -0500 Subject: French Canadian pig calls Message-ID: This is from Robert Vezina, an expert in New World French. ========================================================== Le cri pour appeler le cochon... Au Québec, il a y traditionnellement plusieurs de ces cris, mais je ne crois pas qu'il y ait qqchose comme co-coche ( The cry for calling pigs...In Quebec, there are several of these cries traditionally, but I don't believe there's anything like "co-coche" On a kyo-kyo-kyo (le plus fréquent, je crois) et kyok-kyok. Aussi : kya-kya- kya. Aussi : kyak-kyak. Aussi : kyou-kyou-kyou (assez fréquent). Dans quelques localités, on crie : kyouche-kyouche, ou : kyouk-kyouk. Aussi : tou-tou-tou. Il en reste d'autres, mais plus marginaux. There is kyo-kyo-kyo (the most common, I think) and kyok-kyok. Also: kya-kya- kya. And: kyak-kyak. Also: kyou-kyou-kyou (rather frequent). In a few places, they shout: kyouche-kyouche, or: kyouk-kyouk. Also: tou-tou-tou. There are some others but they are more marginal. From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 19 15:18:44 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 10:18:44 -0500 Subject: Pigs Message-ID: The French linguistic atlas (ALF) is the place to look. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Mccafferty [mailto:mmccaffe at indiana.edu] Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 8:17 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Pigs On Sun, 18 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > > > > I found it too. Yes, it is a nice article. Thanks for > the reference, everybody! > > Taylor actually suggests two different etymons: a Dutch > hog call Kus^-kus^kus^, and a dialectal French form of cocoche or > coucouche. Problem is, cocoche or coucouche, or even coche appear to be unattested. "Cochon" is the French term. There's also an old term for a coach gate at a castle or manor house "porte-cochere". Here "porte" is "door". However, a modern French speaker would probably interpret that "porte" as "carry". So, "porte-cochere," just "portefeuille" or "portemanteau" sounds like something that carries pigs. Pig humor. This message segues into the round-up of pig calls known in French Canada. Michael From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 19 15:26:10 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 10:26:10 -0500 Subject: A Couple of Suggestions as to Form of Postings Message-ID: > If the subject changes, it's a good idea to change the Subject-line, perhaps initially including the original title with the rubric (was ...). Yes, with the proliferation of spam filters, some very sophisticated, it's good not to repeat the same subj. line too often. I think that's one of the keys that gets the message labeled "spam". I think anything that is addressed to me with a subject line that contains the words, "mortgage" or "viagra", "confidential business deal" or "enlargement", etc. gets trashed pretty much automatically. Bob From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Mon Apr 19 15:21:54 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 16:21:54 +0100 Subject: just to make a pig's ear of it Message-ID: Folks: In response to Michael's message - in Yorkshire, /ku4/, where $ is the postalveolar sibilant, is a call heard on farms, but is used for summoning cows rather than pigs! Anthony >>> mmccaffe at indiana.edu 19/04/2004 14:23:25 >>> This is from Robert Vezina, an expert in New World French. ========================================================== Le cri pour appeler le cochon... Au Québec, il a y traditionnellement plusieurs de ces cris, mais je ne crois pas qu'il y ait qqchose comme co-coche ( The cry for calling pigs...In Quebec, there are several of these cries traditionally, but I don't believe there's anything like "co-coche" On a kyo-kyo-kyo (le plus fréquent, je crois) et kyok-kyok. Aussi : kya-kya- kya. Aussi : kyak-kyak. Aussi : kyou-kyou-kyou (assez fréquent). Dans quelques localités, on crie : kyouche-kyouche, ou : kyouk-kyouk. Aussi : tou-tou-tou. Il en reste d'autres, mais plus marginaux. There is kyo-kyo-kyo (the most common, I think) and kyok-kyok. Also: kya-kya- kya. And: kyak-kyak. Also: kyou-kyou-kyou (rather frequent). In a few places, they shout: kyouche-kyouche, or: kyouk-kyouk. Also: tou-tou-tou. There are some others but they are more marginal. From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Mon Apr 19 17:11:09 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 18:11:09 +0100 Subject: horse paper Message-ID: There's a paper on the distribution of forms from Sp. CABALLO in a Mouton volume whose refernce I don't have access to at the moment. The paper is by Lawrence Kiddle. Anthony From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Apr 19 17:35:45 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 12:35:45 -0500 Subject: Pigs In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D01233A74@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Yes, I'll get around to that, Bob. In the meantime, I've checked six French dictionaries covering the time from 1606 to 1835, and there's nothing that shows up for "coche" with the meaning of "pig". I'd begun to think, so I'm so not just beginning to think, that Taylor devised the "coche" = "pig" thing because it made things easy to explain. But the jury is still out. Michael On Mon, 19 Apr 2004, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > The French linguistic atlas (ALF) is the place to look. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Mccafferty [mailto:mmccaffe at indiana.edu] > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 8:17 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Pigs > > > > > On Sun, 18 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I found it too. Yes, it is a nice article. Thanks for > > the reference, everybody! > > > > Taylor actually suggests two different etymons: a Dutch > > hog call Kus^-kus^kus^, and a dialectal French form of cocoche or > > coucouche. > > Problem is, cocoche or coucouche, or even coche appear to be unattested. > "Cochon" is the French term. There's also an old term for a coach gate > at a castle or manor house "porte-cochere". Here "porte" is "door". > However, a modern French speaker would probably interpret that "porte" > as "carry". So, "porte-cochere," just "portefeuille" or "portemanteau" > sounds like something that carries pigs. Pig humor. > > This message segues into the round-up of pig calls known in French > Canada. > > Michael > > > > > > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 19 18:52:15 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 12:52:15 -0600 Subject: Pigs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Yes, I'll get around to that, Bob. In the meantime, I've checked six > French dictionaries covering the time from 1606 to 1835, and there's > nothing that shows up for "coche" with the meaning of "pig". I'd begun to > think, so I'm so not just beginning to think, that Taylor devised the > "coche" = "pig" thing because it made things easy to explain. But the jury > is still out. By way of background that is perhaps more apparent to Michael and Romance linguist Robert Rankin (dissertation on Romanian) than some of the rest of us, I take it that cochon is an augmentative in form, and is being taken as such by Allan Taylor, and that *coche would be the perhaps hypothetical underlying base or simplex form? The problem would be that the base form is not attested, or at least not in the relevant period. The calling form kyouche-kyouche is, of course, essentially the hypothetical "coche, coche" variant of the call. I have to confess that I haven't yet tracked down Allan's paper. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 19 19:04:40 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 13:04:40 -0600 Subject: horse paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Apr 2004, Anthony Grant wrote: > There's a paper on the distribution of forms from Sp. CABALLO in a > Mouton volume whose refernce I don't have access to at the moment. The > paper is by Lawrence Kiddle. Allan's comments on this always centered more on the distribution on innovated terms, e.g., dog-based or elk-based. From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Mon Apr 19 19:22:09 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 20:22:09 +0100 Subject: horse paper Message-ID: Kiddle cited some ethnography (John C. Ewer, perhaps?) that mentioned other ways of referring to horses, pointing out thaqt a Blackfoot form for horse derived from 'big dog'. >>> John.Koontz at colorado.edu 19/04/2004 20:04:40 >>> On Mon, 19 Apr 2004, Anthony Grant wrote: > There's a paper on the distribution of forms from Sp. CABALLO in a > Mouton volume whose refernce I don't have access to at the moment. The > paper is by Lawrence Kiddle. Allan's comments on this always centered more on the distribution on innovated terms, e.g., dog-based or elk-based. From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon Apr 19 19:51:17 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 13:51:17 -0600 Subject: Pigs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Allan tells me that his citation of "coche" and similar forms comes from Walther von Wartburg, Franzoesisches etymologisches Worterbuch, Band 2, Halbband 2, Basel, 1946, p. 1254. Wartburg was always held up to me as THE example of how to do etymology when I was in graduate school. We don't seem to have it in our local library. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 19 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 19 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > Yes, I'll get around to that, Bob. In the meantime, I've checked six > > French dictionaries covering the time from 1606 to 1835, and there's > > nothing that shows up for "coche" with the meaning of "pig". I'd begun to > > think, so I'm so not just beginning to think, that Taylor devised the > > "coche" = "pig" thing because it made things easy to explain. But the jury > > is still out. > > By way of background that is perhaps more apparent to Michael and Romance > linguist Robert Rankin (dissertation on Romanian) than some of the rest of > us, I take it that cochon is an augmentative in form, and is being taken > as such by Allan Taylor, and that *coche would be the perhaps hypothetical > underlying base or simplex form? The problem would be that the base form > is not attested, or at least not in the relevant period. The calling form > kyouche-kyouche is, of course, essentially the hypothetical "coche, coche" > variant of the call. > > I have to confess that I haven't yet tracked down Allan's paper. > From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon Apr 19 20:37:41 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 14:37:41 -0600 Subject: more "pig" citations Message-ID: Maybe the better place to look for French dialect "pig" words is Meyer-Luebke, romanisches etymologisch Woerterbuch (1935), entry 4745. And let's remember that Quebec is not necessarily going to be representative of all rural French dialects, esp. those spoken by Mississippi valley settlers. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Apr 19 21:43:33 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 16:43:33 -0500 Subject: more "pig" citations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Genealogical studies (in M. Juneau, Contrib. á l'Histoire de la Prononciation Française au Québec, 1972, p. 6) show the following leading provenances of Quebec families: 17th century: Normandy Ile de France Poitou Aunis, Iles de Ré et d'Oléron 18th c.: Ile de France Normandie Brittany Poitou Alan From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Mon Apr 19 21:47:10 2004 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 14:47:10 -0700 Subject: Coche In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Maybe it's worth pointing out that the Petit Larousse has an entry "coche" defined as "femelle du cochon, truie" and a truie is also defined as a female pig. I have always thought of "-on" as a diminutive or hypocoristic suffix, as in salon, raton, etc. Interestingly for Iroquoianists, the name Huron is said to be based on "hure", which is a boar's head. Evidently the French were impressed by the Hurons' haircuts. --Wally From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 19 23:35:26 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 17:35:26 -0600 Subject: more "pig" citations In-Reply-To: <40844805.7010605@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Apr 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > Genealogical studies (in M. Juneau, Contrib. á l'Histoire de la > Prononciation Française au Québec, 1972, p. 6) show the following > leading provenances of Quebec families: > > 17th century: > Normandy > Ile de France > Poitou > Aunis, Iles de Ré et d'Oléron > > 18th c.: > Ile de France > Normandie > Brittany > Poitou Whereas I noticed that the Sarpy family, who arrived in the late 18th Cent., and resided in St. Louis and (modern) Louisiana were from Gascony. From lcumberl at indiana.edu Tue Apr 20 00:59:10 2004 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 19:59:10 -0500 Subject: horse paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Anthony Grant : > Kiddle cited some ethnography (John C. Ewer, perhaps?) that mentioned > other ways of referring to horses, pointing out thaqt a Blackfoot form > for horse derived from 'big dog'. ...as is Assiniboine, s^uNka-thaNka. I take this to mean not that the horse looked like a big dog to them, but that the horse did what the dog did but in a bigger way. -Linda From boris at terracom.net Tue Apr 20 02:40:28 2004 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 21:40:28 -0500 Subject: pig Message-ID: From: THRESOR DE LA LANGUE FRANCOYSE TANT ANCIENNE QUE MODERNE Jean Nicot (1606) Coche, penac. Est ores de genre feminin et signifie tant une truye, porca, scrofa, et par metaphore en ceste signification, une femme qui par gesir et vivre en repos a accueilli graisse: que l'entameure de l'arbre d'une arbaleste où la noix est logée, Crena, crenae, et toute autre legere incision un peu creuse comme à dos d'asne faite en bois, fer, pierre, ou autre estoffe. Et ores de genre masc. et signifie ceste maniere de char couvert à quatre rouës tiré par deux quatre ou plus de chevaux accouplez, que les François ont pris en usage des Italiens, qui l'ont usité par imitation des nations Septentrionales. Si que le mot Italien, qui est Coccio, nous en est demeuré, dont les anciens Romains ont usé de presque semblable, qu'ils appeloient, Arcera. I think the key words in this rather unflattering entry are porca, scrofa. There is a shorter entry in the 'Dictionnaire de l'Académie Française. First Edition (1694)' Alan K From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Apr 20 13:30:34 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 08:30:34 -0500 Subject: horse paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The elk-based thing is neat. Thanks. This seems to arise from the same semantic pool as the early Nahuatl term for the Spanish horse: "mazatl" ('deer'). (Later in Nahuatl the term becomes "cahuayo". On Mon, 19 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > > Allan's comments on this always centered more on the distribution on > innovated terms, e.g., dog-based or elk-based. > b From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Apr 20 13:27:17 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 08:27:17 -0500 Subject: Pigs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John, I found it. Coche did exist in French. Nevermind. > > By way of background that is perhaps more apparent to Michael and Romance > linguist Robert Rankin (dissertation on Romanian) than some of the rest of > us, I take it that cochon is an augmentative in form, and is being taken > as such by Allan Taylor, and that *coche would be the perhaps hypothetical > underlying base or simplex form? T From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Apr 20 13:36:30 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 08:36:30 -0500 Subject: Pig sources Message-ID: These have "coche". Thanks for the input, y'all. Greimas, Dictionnaire de l'ancien français and his Dictionnaire du moyen français as well as in four etymological dictionaries (Le Robert, Dauzat, Picoche, and Bloch & von Wartburg). From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 20 19:58:37 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 13:58:37 -0600 Subject: horse paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > The elk-based thing is neat. Thanks. This seems to arise from the same > semantic pool as the early Nahuatl term for the Spanish horse: "mazatl" > ('deer'). (Later in Nahuatl the term becomes "cahuayo". Alan confirms that he hasn't written anything on 'horses', but comments "So you have words like "big dog" (Cree; also Santee Sioux) or "elk dog" (Blackfoot and Gros Ventre)." It has occurred to me that any comments I recall from class on 'horse' might just as well be from David Rood, rather than Allan Taylor. The pig paper probably led to a mythical horse paper through a sort of mental short circuit. From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Wed Apr 21 12:45:19 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 13:45:19 +0100 Subject: horse paper Message-ID: A propos of horses, dogs etc.: Tonkawa had a word for horse that meant 'dog for carrying things'; it had also had one which meant something to do with burdens, which had been used in Gatschet's day -Hoijer collected this word but not n a text (maybe it had been subject to taboo at some time). Given that Spanish was the major source of loans into Tonkawa, it's a little odd that it never took over a form of caballo/cahuayo. Anthony >>> John.Koontz at colorado.edu 20/04/2004 20:58:37 >>> On Tue, 20 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > The elk-based thing is neat. Thanks. This seems to arise from the same > semantic pool as the early Nahuatl term for the Spanish horse: "mazatl" > ('deer'). (Later in Nahuatl the term becomes "cahuayo". Alan confirms that he hasn't written anything on 'horses', but comments "So you have words like "big dog" (Cree; also Santee Sioux) or "elk dog" (Blackfoot and Gros Ventre)." It has occurred to me that any comments I recall from class on 'horse' might just as well be from David Rood, rather than Allan Taylor. The pig paper probably led to a mythical horse paper through a sort of mental short circuit. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Apr 21 13:34:31 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:34:31 -0500 Subject: Behind the 8-ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As many of you know, the Miami-Illinois term for "eight" /paraani/ is, as Bob Rankin pointed out in an article in IJAL several years ago, a borrowing from a Siouan language. Tutelo typically gets the nod. Can anyone suggest why this happened? No, not that Bob wrote it up, but that such a borrowing occurred. It's one of the strangest things. I imagine, since we're talking numbers, that it was borrowed probably in the process of trading. But does the number 8 have any mythological meaning? Thanks, Michael From rankin at ku.edu Wed Apr 21 13:52:50 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:52:50 -0500 Subject: Behind the 8-ball Message-ID: Can't say for sure, of course, but those higher numeral terms, esp. 8 and 9, seem rather unstable within Siouan at least. Nine is widely borrowed in or between Siouan and Algonquian, i.e., the /ki$aNhka/ term. It is very hard to reconstruct 7, 8, 9 for Proto-Siouan without appealing to "irregular" changes. 'Eight' is also borrowed in Kansa (and, I think, Osage) and resulted in competing forms. Kaw has /ppe:ya:bliN/, the inherited form, along with /kkiado:ba/ which looks very much like a Caddoan borrowing -- prob. from Wichita (although there is a folk etymology analyzing it as "two X four"). There's that article on Algonquian numeral words in the Siebert Festschrift, but I haven't read it yet. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Mccafferty" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 8:34 AM Subject: Behind the 8-ball > > > As many of you know, the Miami-Illinois term for "eight" /paraani/ is, as > Bob Rankin pointed out in an article in IJAL several years ago, a > borrowing from a Siouan language. Tutelo typically gets the nod. > > Can anyone suggest why this happened? No, not that Bob wrote it up, but > that such a borrowing occurred. It's one of the strangest things. I > imagine, since we're talking numbers, that it was borrowed probably in the > process of trading. But does the number 8 have any mythological meaning? > > Thanks, > Michael > > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Apr 21 14:12:05 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 07:12:05 -0700 Subject: Behind the 8-ball Message-ID: As one of the two authors of that article on Algonquian numeral words in the Siebert Festschrift, I can say that number borrowing is *very* common within Algonquian, but *much* rarer if you're talking about Algonquian borrowing from outside the family. We didn't address the issue of 'why' any of these numbers were borrowed, beyond pointing out possible trade contexts. The number eight doesn't have any special mythical significance that I'm aware of, and that question seems unanswerable to me. All I can say is that the original Proto-Algonquian word for 'eight' was lost by the earliest records of Miami-Illinois, and replaced with a neologism meaning 'two missing' or something like that (/nii$omeneehki/); that form is preserved in certain Illinois dialects. But in other Illinois dialects, you have the Tutelo loan /paraare/, and by the modern language it's /palaani/. Intervocalic Illinois /r/ becoming later M-I /n/ is not normal, but both of those variants *are* attested in Tutelo. So what seems to be happening is the Tutelo > M-I borrowing was so recent, it was borrowed in different forms in different M-I dialects, and other dialects didn't do it at all. Which says that the period of the M-I speakers being next to the Tutelo wasn't all that long ago, which seems very interesting to me, since Indiana and Illinois aren't very geographically close to central Virgina... David > Can't say for sure, of course, but those higher numeral terms, esp. 8 and 9, > seem rather unstable within Siouan at least. Nine is widely borrowed in or > between Siouan and Algonquian, i.e., the /ki$aNhka/ term. It is very hard to > reconstruct 7, 8, 9 for Proto-Siouan without appealing to "irregular" changes. > 'Eight' is also borrowed in Kansa (and, I think, Osage) and resulted in > competing forms. Kaw has /ppe:ya:bliN/, the inherited form, along with > /kkiado:ba/ which looks very much like a Caddoan borrowing -- prob. from > Wichita (although there is a folk etymology analyzing it as "two X four"). > There's that article on Algonquian numeral words in the Siebert Festschrift, > but I haven't read it yet. > > Bob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Mccafferty" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 8:34 AM > Subject: Behind the 8-ball > >> As many of you know, the Miami-Illinois term for "eight" /paraani/ is, as >> Bob Rankin pointed out in an article in IJAL several years ago, a >> borrowing from a Siouan language. Tutelo typically gets the nod. >> >> Can anyone suggest why this happened? No, not that Bob wrote it up, but >> that such a borrowing occurred. It's one of the strangest things. I >> imagine, since we're talking numbers, that it was borrowed probably in the >> process of trading. But does the number 8 have any mythological meaning? >> >> Thanks, >> Michael >> >> > From lcumberl at indiana.edu Wed Apr 21 15:04:41 2004 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:04:41 -0500 Subject: horse paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I suppose I should track down this horse paper, but in the meantime, I noticed in Dave Miller's introduction to Denig's "The Assiniboine" that JNB Hewitt replaced the word "medicine" with "divining" in Denig's manuscript: "consequently ... 'medicine dog' (the Assininboine term for horse) became 'divining dog'" (2000:xvi). Now, this is surprising, because the word for horse in every Asb dialect, as far as I know, is (as I communicated earlier) "big dog", not "sacred/medicine-dog" as it is in Sioux. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Denig's authority on the Assiniboine words for things in the mid-19th century, living as he did for two decades at the central trading site in the heart of Assiniboine territory, is pretty unassailable. So what happened? Linda Quoting Anthony Grant : > A propos of horses, dogs etc.: Tonkawa had a word for horse that meant > 'dog for carrying things'; it had also had one which meant something to > do with burdens, which had been used in Gatschet's day -Hoijer collected > this word but not n a text (maybe it had been subject to taboo at some > time). Given that Spanish was the major source of loans into Tonkawa, > it's a little odd that it never took over a form of caballo/cahuayo. > > Anthony > > >>> John.Koontz at colorado.edu 20/04/2004 20:58:37 >>> > On Tue, 20 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > The elk-based thing is neat. Thanks. This seems to arise from the > same > > semantic pool as the early Nahuatl term for the Spanish horse: > "mazatl" > > ('deer'). (Later in Nahuatl the term becomes "cahuayo". > > Alan confirms that he hasn't written anything on 'horses', but > comments > "So you have words like "big dog" (Cree; also Santee Sioux) or "elk > dog" > (Blackfoot and Gros Ventre)." > > It has occurred to me that any comments I recall from class on 'horse' > might just as well be from David Rood, rather than Allan Taylor. The > pig > paper probably led to a mythical horse paper through a sort of mental > short circuit. > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 21 15:26:36 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 09:26:36 -0600 Subject: horse paper In-Reply-To: <1082559881.40868d896f7b3@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 lcumberl at indiana.edu wrote: > ... Now, this is surprising, because the word for horse in every Asb > dialect, as far as I know, is (as I communicated earlier) "big dog", not > "sacred/medicine-dog" as it is in Sioux. > > Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Denig's authority on the Assiniboine > words for things in the mid-19th century, living as he did for two decades at > the central trading site in the heart of Assiniboine territory, is pretty > unassailable. So what happened? Unless there are also early attestations of 'big dog' it sounds like it must be a neologism. It's true that s^uNkawakhaN is given as the independent form in at least Teton, but in most compounds and phrases just s^uNka is used, and rederivations from that of new independent forms or what one might call "unmarked descriptive phrases" would be possible. I mentioned that Allan Taylor had suggested 'big dog' for Santee. I haven't checked this and wonder whether he might have been thinking of Assiniboine instead, as he also mentioned it as the etymology of the Cree term, and he is elsewhere on record as explaining many details of Stoney phonology as due to Cree influence. Perhaps lexical influence also occurs. From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Wed Apr 21 17:13:57 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:13:57 -0600 Subject: southern plains horses In-Reply-To: <1690062.1082540038@[192.168.2.34]> Message-ID: Similarly, Wichita has 2 words for 'horse': the caballo word (kawaarah in Wichita), and one that looks almost like one of the 'buffalo' words, namely taara (the buffalo word is tarha). I used to think they were suppletive forms for free noun vs. incorporated noun (I have never gotten kawaarah incorporated), but last summer someone used the taara form as a free noun. I have no etymology for the taara form except the possibility that it's somehow related to the 'buffalo' one. (If a contrast is necessary, taara means 'buffalo cow', but it also occurs in contexts were gender is irrelevant, as does the one for 'buffalo bull'.) David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 21 Apr 2004, Wallace Chafe wrote: > Caddo has two words for 'horse', which people often cite to show that "we > don't all talk alike": kawa:yuh and di:tamah (with falling pitch on the > di:). The di:- part in the latter means 'dog', but I've never been able to > figure out the -tamah. I mention this because the Caddos were neighbors of > the Tonkawas, with some linguistic contact, and it's quite possible the > Tonkawas also had an alternative word derived from caballo, which Hoijer > just didn't happen to record. > --Wally > > > A propos of horses, dogs etc.: Tonkawa had a word for horse that meant > > 'dog for carrying things'; it had also had one which meant something to > > do with burdens, which had been used in Gatschet's day -Hoijer collected > > this word but not n a text (maybe it had been subject to taboo at some > > time). Given that Spanish was the major source of loans into Tonkawa, > > it's a little odd that it never took over a form of caballo/cahuayo. > > From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Wed Apr 21 16:33:58 2004 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 09:33:58 -0700 Subject: Tonkawa horses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Caddo has two words for 'horse', which people often cite to show that "we don't all talk alike": kawa:yuh and di:tamah (with falling pitch on the di:). The di:- part in the latter means 'dog', but I've never been able to figure out the -tamah. I mention this because the Caddos were neighbors of the Tonkawas, with some linguistic contact, and it's quite possible the Tonkawas also had an alternative word derived from caballo, which Hoijer just didn't happen to record. --Wally > A propos of horses, dogs etc.: Tonkawa had a word for horse that meant > 'dog for carrying things'; it had also had one which meant something to > do with burdens, which had been used in Gatschet's day -Hoijer collected > this word but not n a text (maybe it had been subject to taboo at some > time). Given that Spanish was the major source of loans into Tonkawa, > it's a little odd that it never took over a form of caballo/cahuayo. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Apr 21 17:45:33 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:45:33 -0500 Subject: horse paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I mentioned that Allan Taylor had suggested 'big dog' for Santee. I > haven't checked this and wonder whether he might have been thinking of > Assiniboine instead, as he also mentioned it as the etymology of the Cree > term, and he is elsewhere on record as explaining many details of Stoney > phonology as due to Cree influence. Perhaps lexical influence also > occurs. The Williamson dictionary (English-Dakota) gives S^uNkthaNka as the primary entry (presumably Santee), followed by "Y. & T. S^uN'kawakhaN". The Riggs dictionary (Dakota-English) agrees in multiple entries. I believe Winnebago uses the 'big dog' form too. Perhaps the two versions were just alternate qualifiers in the northern MVS languages early on, with one form or the other eventually becoming standard. As John indicates, the actual head of these constructions is simply 'dog'. Rory From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Wed Apr 21 18:49:22 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 19:49:22 +0100 Subject: Tonkawa horses Message-ID: Dear Wally: If I recall correctlym the di:tamah word is recorded pretty early on in our records for Caddo. I know there's a reflex of caballo in some Dhegiha languages, as John K told me this per litteras some years back. It's possible that there was a reflex in Tonkawa that Hoijer, gatschet, Chowell, Pike et cetera never got. But Tonkawa wasn't much of a language for borrowing words - one or two from other local languages, a couple from English, about 10 from Spanish - just over 1% of the recorded stem collection for Tonkawa (Hoijer got about 930 items and there are some more simplexes in the older literature). Caddo didn't excatly go hog-wild borrowing words from other languages (certainly not if yo compare its loan tranche with that of, say, a California Uto-Aztecan language: there are hundreds of hispanisms in Luiseno and similar languages), but it does boast the most heterogeneous collection of loans that I know of in any language of the Americas. Anthony >>> chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu 21/04/2004 17:33:58 >>> Caddo has two words for 'horse', which people often cite to show that "we don't all talk alike": kawa:yuh and di:tamah (with falling pitch on the di:). The di:- part in the latter means 'dog', but I've never been able to figure out the -tamah. I mention this because the Caddos were neighbors of the Tonkawas, with some linguistic contact, and it's quite possible the Tonkawas also had an alternative word derived from caballo, which Hoijer just didn't happen to record. --Wally > A propos of horses, dogs etc.: Tonkawa had a word for horse that meant > 'dog for carrying things'; it had also had one which meant something to > do with burdens, which had been used in Gatschet's day -Hoijer collected > this word but not n a text (maybe it had been subject to taboo at some > time). Given that Spanish was the major source of loans into Tonkawa, > it's a little odd that it never took over a form of caballo/cahuayo. From jschudli at indiana.edu Wed Apr 21 20:36:35 2004 From: jschudli at indiana.edu (jschudli at indiana.edu) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:36:35 -0500 Subject: horse paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > As John indicates, the actual head of these constructions is simply 'dog'. I always liked the way Crow handled such "new things" - I don't remember the actual Crow, since this comes from a class Randy taught 5 or 6 years ago, but the gist is that many new things, including horses, simply co-opted a name that already existed in Crow. So horses are "dogs" and actual canine type dogs are "real dogs". I'm sure there are other introduced items that follow the same pattern as well, but I can't dredge them up from memory at the moment. - Joel Schudlich +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "...in accordance with an elaborate and secret code that is written nowhere, known by none, and understood by all." -Edward Sapir, 1927 =================================================================== From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 21 23:54:17 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 17:54:17 -0600 Subject: horse paper In-Reply-To: <1082579795.4086db53b6dd5@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 jschudli at indiana.edu wrote: > So horses are "dogs" and actual canine type dogs are "real dogs". I'm sure > there are other introduced items that follow the same pattern as well, but I > can't dredge them up from memory at the moment. OP: tta' 'deerlike animal' ('ruminant' is the fancy gloss) tta'=xti 'deer' = 'real deer' PpaN'kka 'Ponca' PpaN'kka=xti 'subclan of one of the Ponca clans' = 'real Poncas' (I think there are some other lexicalized =xti 'real' forms, but I'm forgetting them.) A similar pattern: ni'kkas^iNga 'person' (historically 'little person'?) ni'kkas^iNga ukke'dhiN (kk?) 'Indian' = 'common variety of person' wa(a)'xe 'whiteman' wa(a)'xe ukke'dhiN (kk?) 'Frenchman' = 'common variety of whiteman' From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Apr 22 06:21:21 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 00:21:21 -0600 Subject: Horse Forms (Re: horse paper) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > I believe Winnebago uses the 'big dog' form too. Perhaps the two > versions were just alternate qualifiers in the northern MVS languages > early on, with one form or the other eventually becoming standard. I'll skip Dakotan, which Rory and Linda have handled pretty well. >>From Miner and from Good Tacks: WI s^uNuN'k 'dog; horse' s^uNuN(k)xe'de 'horse' = 'big dog' IO suN(uN)'e ~ suN(uN)'e 'dog; horse' s. ukhe'iN 'dog' = 'ordinary dog' The latter given as shuNkhee, shuNkukhee, suNkhenyi(N). Recall that IO has s^ > s (with some attestations of s^), and that VNke > VNe ~ VNe. The form ukhe'e ~ ukhe'i(N) matches OP ukke'dhiN, both with the sense 'common, ordinary'. >>From Rankin, Dorsey, and LaFlesche: OP s^aN'ge 'horse' Kkawa'ha [man's name, meaning unknown, INs^ta'saNda clan] (Might be 'horse' or 'horsehide', cf. ha' 'skin'.) s^i'nudaN 'dog' I forget the explanation the CSD editors noted for the OP 'dog' term. KS s^oN'ge 'horse' kkawa'e ~ kkawa'ye 'horse' s^oN'ge o'yuda ~ s^oN'giida 'dog' (cf. oyu'daN 'to pull on, rein in, restrain') OS hka'wa 'horse' s^oN'ke 'dog' QU s^oN'ke 'dog' (and in compounds referring to horse-related things) ??? horse Personally, I think the kkawa... forms stem from Wichita kawaarah, rather than directly from Spanish caballo. It is true that the Spanish controlled St. Louis for a period, but most direct contact in that period was in the hands of francophones. The horses were obtained from the Wichita at an early period. Hollow: MA miNniNs 'horse; dog' (cf. miNniNs^ 'folded up; rolled up'?) miNniNsweruta 'dog' = 'dog-shit-eat' Everyday Crow and Matthews: CR bishkakaa'she, bishke' 'dog' (first is 'real dog', wi. kaa'she 'real') iichi'ile 'horse' iichi'ilikaashe 'elk' = 'real horse' HI mas^uka 'dog' ped=akuduti 'dog' = 'shit-eater' icuas^uka, itas^uka 'horse' The second Hidatsa dog term compares well with the Mandan term for indicating a dog to the exclusion of a horse. The first Hidatsa horse form was explained by some in Matthews' day as icumas^uka 'strong dog', presumably appealing to icii 'strong', but compare icii with the Crow 'elk' word. (Hidatsa has madoka 'elk'.) The second Hidatsa form looks like 'his-alienable-dog', cf. archaic Dakotan thas^uNke 'his horse'. The Crow-Hidatsa forms show the original 'beast' prefix *wi- (analogized to *wa in Hidatsa). I won't try to tackle the Southeastern forms for the moment. I think for present purposes Plains Algonquian, Comanche, Kiowa, and Plains Apache might be more to the point. From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Apr 22 07:13:28 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 08:13:28 +0100 Subject: Bilingual paronomasia In-Reply-To: <43383046.1081805337@[192.168.2.34]> Message-ID: >> Wally wrote: >>> Are these also paronomasia? I've heard that the Oneidas in Wisconsin >> refer >>> to Swedes with the Oneida word for "sweet". And they used to refer to >>> Lounsbury with their word for "lunch". >> >> It sounds like this is even more complicated. First they >> applied paronomasia to conceptually translate the foreign >> name into English, and then they calqued that English pun >> into their own language. >> >> Rory I don't know if any of you read the novels of Patrick O'Brian, particularly the Jack Aubrey novels, but in the last one I read the hero Jack Aubrey is captured by the Americans (could it be worse?) I imagine in the war of 1812. And someone in Boston informs another character that the phrase 'it cuts no ice with me' is from the Iroquois (it)katsno aissvizmi meaning 'I am not impressed'. It seemed amusing. Anyone know if this is true? Bruce Bruce Ingham Professor of Arabic Dialect Studies SOAS. London University Thornhaugh St. Russell Square London WC1H OXG. England **************************** Tel 020 7898 4336 **************************** From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Apr 22 13:50:42 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 08:50:42 -0500 Subject: Behind the 8-ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for the linguistic focus, Dave. I'm wondering how far back in the past could this change have taken place in your estimation. Lately archaeological discoveries are pointing to a Miami- Illinois-speaking presence in the lower Maumee valley during the Sandusky Tradition (ca. 1250-1650 AD). Confirmed historic Illinois pots known as Danner Ware are identical to a type known as Fort Meigs Notched Applique, et related varieties, in the vicinity of Toledo. This placement of MI folks in northwestern Ohio would not be that far from the putative Tutelo late historic estate on the upper Ohio. Michael Quoting David Costa : > As one of the two authors of that article on Algonquian numeral words in the > Siebert Festschrift, I can say that number borrowing is *very* common within > Algonquian, but *much* rarer if you're talking about Algonquian borrowing > from outside the family. We didn't address the issue of 'why' any of these > numbers were borrowed, beyond pointing out possible trade contexts. The > number eight doesn't have any special mythical significance that I'm aware > of, and that question seems unanswerable to me. All I can say is that the > original Proto-Algonquian word for 'eight' was lost by the earliest records > of Miami-Illinois, and replaced with a neologism meaning 'two missing' or > something like that (/nii$omeneehki/); that form is preserved in certain > Illinois dialects. But in other Illinois dialects, you have the Tutelo loan > /paraare/, and by the modern language it's /palaani/. Intervocalic Illinois > /r/ becoming later M-I /n/ is not normal, but both of those variants *are* > attested in Tutelo. So what seems to be happening is the Tutelo > M-I > borrowing was so recent, it was borrowed in different forms in different M-I > dialects, and other dialects didn't do it at all. Which says that the period > of the M-I speakers being next to the Tutelo wasn't all that long ago, which > seems very interesting to me, since Indiana and Illinois aren't very > geographically close to central Virgina... > > David > > > > Can't say for sure, of course, but those higher numeral terms, esp. 8 and > 9, > > seem rather unstable within Siouan at least. Nine is widely borrowed in > or > > between Siouan and Algonquian, i.e., the /ki$aNhka/ term. It is very hard > to > > reconstruct 7, 8, 9 for Proto-Siouan without appealing to "irregular" > changes. > > 'Eight' is also borrowed in Kansa (and, I think, Osage) and resulted in > > competing forms. Kaw has /ppe:ya:bliN/, the inherited form, along with > > /kkiado:ba/ which looks very much like a Caddoan borrowing -- prob. from > > Wichita (although there is a folk etymology analyzing it as "two X four"). > > > There's that article on Algonquian numeral words in the Siebert > Festschrift, > > but I haven't read it yet. > > > > Bob > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Michael Mccafferty" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 8:34 AM > > Subject: Behind the 8-ball > > > > >> As many of you know, the Miami-Illinois term for "eight" /paraani/ is, as > >> Bob Rankin pointed out in an article in IJAL several years ago, a > >> borrowing from a Siouan language. Tutelo typically gets the nod. > >> > >> Can anyone suggest why this happened? No, not that Bob wrote it up, but > >> that such a borrowing occurred. It's one of the strangest things. I > >> imagine, since we're talking numbers, that it was borrowed probably in > the > >> process of trading. But does the number 8 have any mythological meaning? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Michael > >> > >> > > > > > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Apr 22 14:58:12 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 07:58:12 -0700 Subject: Tutelo & Miami Message-ID: I readily admit, I don't know from archaeology. But Toledo, OH is still quite close to the historical location of the Miamis in northern Indiana, when you get right down to it. If you're saying the precontact homeland of the Tutelos is thought to be the 'upper Ohio', i.e., western Pennsylvania or thereabouts, then we *almost* have the M-I's and Tutelos next to each other, but not quite. Out of curiosity, what hard evidence IS there for locating the Tutelos before European contact? Dave > Thanks for the linguistic focus, Dave. > I'm wondering how far back in the past could this change have taken place in > your estimation. Lately archaeological discoveries are pointing to a Miami- > Illinois-speaking presence in the lower Maumee valley during the Sandusky > Tradition (ca. 1250-1650 AD). Confirmed historic Illinois pots known as Danner > Ware are identical to a type known as Fort Meigs Notched Applique, et related > varieties, in the vicinity of Toledo. This placement of MI folks in > northwestern Ohio would not be that far from the putative Tutelo late historic > estate on the upper Ohio. > > Michael > > Quoting David Costa : > >> As one of the two authors of that article on Algonquian numeral words in the >> Siebert Festschrift, I can say that number borrowing is *very* common within >> Algonquian, but *much* rarer if you're talking about Algonquian borrowing >> from outside the family. We didn't address the issue of 'why' any of these >> numbers were borrowed, beyond pointing out possible trade contexts. The >> number eight doesn't have any special mythical significance that I'm aware >> of, and that question seems unanswerable to me. All I can say is that the >> original Proto-Algonquian word for 'eight' was lost by the earliest records >> of Miami-Illinois, and replaced with a neologism meaning 'two missing' or >> something like that (/nii$omeneehki/); that form is preserved in certain >> Illinois dialects. But in other Illinois dialects, you have the Tutelo loan >> /paraare/, and by the modern language it's /palaani/. Intervocalic Illinois >> /r/ becoming later M-I /n/ is not normal, but both of those variants *are* >> attested in Tutelo. So what seems to be happening is the Tutelo > M-I >> borrowing was so recent, it was borrowed in different forms in different M-I >> dialects, and other dialects didn't do it at all. Which says that the period >> of the M-I speakers being next to the Tutelo wasn't all that long ago, which >> seems very interesting to me, since Indiana and Illinois aren't very >> geographically close to central Virgina... >> >> David >> >> >>> Can't say for sure, of course, but those higher numeral terms, esp. 8 and 9, >>> seem rather unstable within Siouan at least. Nine is widely borrowed in or >>> between Siouan and Algonquian, i.e., the /ki$aNhka/ term. It is very hard >>> to reconstruct 7, 8, 9 for Proto-Siouan without appealing to "irregular" >>> changes. 'Eight' is also borrowed in Kansa (and, I think, Osage) and >>> resulted in competing forms. Kaw has /ppe:ya:bliN/, the inherited form, >>> along with /kkiado:ba/ which looks very much like a Caddoan borrowing -- >>> prob. from Wichita (although there is a folk etymology analyzing it as "two >>> X four"). >>> There's that article on Algonquian numeral words in the Siebert Festschrift, >>> but I haven't read it yet. > >> > Bob >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Michael Mccafferty" >> > To: >> > Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 8:34 AM >> > Subject: Behind the 8-ball >> > >> >>>> As many of you know, the Miami-Illinois term for "eight" /paraani/ is, as >>>> Bob Rankin pointed out in an article in IJAL several years ago, a borrowing >>>> from a Siouan language. Tutelo typically gets the nod. > >>>> Can anyone suggest why this happened? No, not that Bob wrote it up, but that >>>> such a borrowing occurred. It's one of the strangest things. I imagine, >>>> since we're talking numbers, that it was borrowed probably in the process of >>>> trading. But does the number 8 have any mythological meaning? > >>>> Thanks, Michael > > > > > > > > From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Apr 22 15:20:59 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 10:20:59 -0500 Subject: Bilingual paronomasia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bruce Ingham wrote: > And someone in Boston informs another character that the phrase 'it cuts no > ice with me' is from the Iroquois (it)katsno aissvizmi meaning 'I am not > impressed'. It seemed amusing. Anyone know if this is true? The earliest record in the OED is from 1895, with no hint of an Iroquois connection. Alan From BARudes at aol.com Thu Apr 22 15:44:09 2004 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:44:09 EDT Subject: Bilingual paronomasia Message-ID: Bruce, It seems pretty clear that (it)katsno aissvizmi is just a quasi-phonetic rendition of "it cuts no ice with me" (i.e. (it) kats no aiss viz mi). It is not from an Iroquoian language. Blair From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Apr 22 16:25:18 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:25:18 -0500 Subject: Tutelo Message-ID: Dave, I'm not a Tutelo expert but I have been accumulating data for looking into the Tutelo in the Ohio valley with the hope of somehow linking them up with the Miami-Illinois. A lot or all of this material may be old hat for our (non-) fellow Siouanists. There is Huberto Dixon's paper on Siouans in the Ohio Valley. He collects all of the accounts in the oral traditions of Siouans in the Ohio Valley. There is a Catawba migration narrative in Schoolcraft which has the Catawbas along the south shore of Lake Erie at one point in their history. I've heard that one Darla Spencer is collecting such accounts of Siouans in the Ohio Valley with an eye to tying them into the archaeological evidence such as net-impressed pottery in the Kanawha and Big Sandy river valleys. Dick George at Carnegie Museum in Pittsburgh is trying to make a Siouan connection with the Monongehla Culture of the upper Ohio Valley. David Feurst is an authority on New River archaeology. Michael From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Apr 22 16:30:25 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:30:25 -0500 Subject: horse paper In-Reply-To: <1082579795.4086db53b6dd5@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 jschudli at indiana.edu wrote: > So horses are "dogs" and actual canine type dogs are "real dogs". I'm sure > there are other introduced items that follow the same pattern as well, but I > can't dredge them up from memory at the moment. > > - Joel Schudlich > A parallel case might be made in the case of Miami-Illinois /mahweewa/ 'wolf', an animal known to Algonquians from day one, and Miami-Illinois /lenimahwia/ 'real wolf', the term for "coyote," a prairie animal that was not there from day one. Michael From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Apr 22 16:24:11 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:24:11 +0100 Subject: Siouan Caddoan 2004 In-Reply-To: <78.551e04a4.2db94249@aol.com> Message-ID: I have been trying to get a message to Catherine Rudin about registering for the 2004 Siouan Caddoan conference, but my message is being returned. Can anyone advise on her email address and whether she is the correct person to contact Bruce From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Apr 22 16:31:18 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:31:18 +0100 Subject: Bilingual paronomasia In-Reply-To: <4087E2DB.1000705@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On 22/4/04 4:20 pm, "Alan Hartley" wrote: > Bruce Ingham wrote: > >> And someone in Boston informs another character that the phrase 'it cuts no >> ice with me' is from the Iroquois (it)katsno aissvizmi meaning 'I am not >> impressed'. It seemed amusing. Anyone know if this is true? > > The earliest record in the OED is from 1895, with no hint of an Iroquois > connection. > > Alan > > > Thanks all. It looked too good to be true. Bruce From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Thu Apr 22 16:46:07 2004 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:46:07 -0500 Subject: Siouan Caddoan 2004 Message-ID: Hi, Bruce! Yes, I am the correct person to contact about the Siouan and Caddoan conference. I hope no one else has had trouble reaching me! My email is carudin1 at wsc.edu. Or you can fax me at 402-375-7130, phone me at 402-375-7026, or write me an old-fashioned letter at Department of Language and Literature, Wayne State College, 1111 Main St., Wayne, NE 68787 USA Glad you are planning to come! I'll save you a spot on the program and look forward to getting your title. Thanks for giving me an opening to remind everyone to get their titles in soon... I've already received several excellent abstracts for the conference, and hope to get a bunch more next week. The official abstract deadline is May 1. It doesn't have to be a detailed abstract -- just a title or a rough topic is ok, but do send me something, so I can put together a first draft of the program early in May. I'd also appreciate hearing from anyone who plans to attend but not present, just so I have an idea how many people to plan for. If anyone has ideas for roundtable discussions, topical workshops, demonstrations, or whatever -- anything else you'd like to see on the program -- let me know. Suggestions welcome! For information on housing, travel, etc., check the SSILA website. Catherine Bruce Ingham To: Sent by: cc: owner-siouan at lists.c Subject: Siouan Caddoan 2004 olorado.edu 04/22/04 11:24 AM Please respond to siouan I have been trying to get a message to Catherine Rudin about registering for the 2004 Siouan Caddoan conference, but my message is being returned. Can anyone advise on her email address and whether she is the correct person to contact Bruce From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Apr 22 16:39:42 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:39:42 -0500 Subject: Tutelo & Miami In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yeah, you know, my hunch is that the course that the Miami took in the late 1600s from what is now Berlin, Wisconsin (a town they shared with the Mascouten), to where Niles, Michigan, is now and then to the site of present-day Fort Wayne, Indiana, was **just going home**. It seems that's what war refugees do--if they can--they go home, after conflicts are settled. The Illinois' going back home was brought to a halt by the alienation that they and the Miami had created for each other after the Central Algonquian diaspora ca. 1650. The Illinois got stuck in Illinois and never made it back further east to the western Lake Erie watershed. On Thu, 22 Apr 2004, David Costa wrote: > I readily admit, I don't know from archaeology. But Toledo, OH is still > quite close to the historical location of the Miamis in northern Indiana, > when you get right down to it. If you're saying the precontact homeland of > the Tutelos is thought to be the 'upper Ohio', i.e., western Pennsylvania or > thereabouts, then we *almost* have the M-I's and Tutelos next to each other, > but not quite. > > Out of curiosity, what hard evidence IS there for locating the Tutelos > before European contact? > > Dave From boris at terracom.net Thu Apr 22 16:49:45 2004 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:49:45 -0500 Subject: horse paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That brings to mind the Proto_Algonquin term for " ordinary or even original, or plain ( =real) *eleni-" which shows as "leni-" below, it appears also in PA (Bloomfield) *eleneq$ipa "mallard duck" and perhaps in *elenyiwa "man" (which is the source of the ethnonym "Illinois"). Alan K On Thur, 22 Apr 2004 Michael wrote: A parallel case might be made in the case of Miami-Illinois /mahweewa/ 'wolf', an animal known to Algonquians from day one, and Miami-Illinois /lenimahwia/ 'real wolf', the term for "coyote," a prairie animal that was not there from day one. Michael From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Apr 22 16:55:53 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 09:55:53 -0700 Subject: horse paper Message-ID: The prenoun represented by Miami /leni-/ and PA */elen-/ can also mean 'ordinary, regular' in some constructions in some languages, such as Ojibwe /ininishib/ 'mallard', i.e., 'ordinary duck'. Looked at that way, an 'ordinary wolf' etymology for 'coyote' makes sense in that as the M-I speakers gradually moved into areas where wolves were more and more scarce, they were also coming into regular contact with coyotes for the first time. Either way, the Potawatomis also came up with the exact same name for coyotes, /nunim?we/ in that language ('?' = glottal stop, 'u' = schwa). David > A parallel case might be made in the case of Miami-Illinois /mahweewa/ > 'wolf', an animal known to Algonquians from day one, and Miami-Illinois > /lenimahwia/ 'real wolf', the term for "coyote," a prairie animal that was > not there from day one. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Apr 22 17:05:37 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:05:37 -0600 Subject: Bilingual paronomasia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 2004, Bruce Ingham wrote: > I don't know if any of you read the novels of Patrick O'Brian, particularly > the Jack Aubrey novels, but in the last one I read the hero Jack Aubrey is > captured by the Americans (could it be worse?) I imagine in the war of 1812. > And someone in Boston informs another character that the phrase 'it cuts no > ice with me' is from the Iroquois (it)katsno aissvizmi meaning 'I am not > impressed'. It seemed amusing. Anyone know if this is true? My impression when I read it was that O'Brian made it up, and that part of the humor, whether for him or for us, was to foist this misinformation with, as it were, a straight face. A principle O'Brian employed to some extent in life as well as art. For example, he wasn't Irish as he claimed to be. I don't think the phonology works for Iroquoian, anyway, though v is sometimes used for a nasal vowel. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Apr 22 17:10:33 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 10:10:33 -0700 Subject: horse paper Message-ID: Looks like our thoughts overlapped here... Actually, I published an article that discussed the name 'Illinois' 4 years ago (Miami-Illinois Tribe Names. Papers of the 31st Algonquian Conference, pp. 30-53. {2000}). The name 'Illinois' does not come from the Illinois word for 'man', /ireniwa/. In fact, it comes from French, which borrowed it from the old Ojibwe name for the Illinois, /ilinwe/, pl. /ilinwek/. This in turn is an Ojibwe borrowing from Illinois /irenweewa/ 'he speaks Illinois, speaks in the regular way'. If you want to read my full argumentation for this etymology, it's on page 46-47 of the article. Dave > That brings to mind the Proto_Algonquin term for " ordinary or even > original, or plain ( =real) *eleni-" which shows as "leni-" below, it > appears also in PA (Bloomfield) *eleneq$ipa "mallard duck" and perhaps > in *elenyiwa "man" (which is the source of the ethnonym "Illinois"). > > Alan K -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Thu Apr 22 17:28:43 2004 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 10:28:43 -0700 Subject: O'Brian's Imagination In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just to second what Blair said, there's no possible way in which this could be Iroquoian. --Wally > On Thu, 22 Apr 2004, Bruce Ingham wrote: >> I don't know if any of you read the novels of Patrick O'Brian, >> particularly the Jack Aubrey novels, but in the last one I read the hero >> Jack Aubrey is captured by the Americans (could it be worse?) I imagine >> in the war of 1812. And someone in Boston informs another character that >> the phrase 'it cuts no ice with me' is from the Iroquois (it)katsno >> aissvizmi meaning 'I am not impressed'. It seemed amusing. Anyone know >> if this is true? > > My impression when I read it was that O'Brian made it up, and that part of > the humor, whether for him or for us, was to foist this misinformation > with, as it were, a straight face. A principle O'Brian employed to some > extent in life as well as art. For example, he wasn't Irish as he claimed > to be. > > I don't think the phonology works for Iroquoian, anyway, though v is > sometimes used for a nasal vowel. From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Apr 22 17:28:41 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 18:28:41 +0100 Subject: Bilingual paronomasia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 22/4/04 6:05 pm, "Koontz John E" wrote: > On Thu, 22 Apr 2004, Bruce Ingham wrote: >> I don't know if any of you read the novels of Patrick O'Brian, particularly >> the Jack Aubrey novels, but in the last one I read the hero Jack Aubrey is >> captured by the Americans (could it be worse?) I imagine in the war of 1812. >> And someone in Boston informs another character that the phrase 'it cuts no >> ice with me' is from the Iroquois (it)katsno aissvizmi meaning 'I am not >> impressed'. It seemed amusing. Anyone know if this is true? > > My impression when I read it was that O'Brian made it up, and that part of > the humor, whether for him or for us, was to foist this misinformation > with, as it were, a straight face. A principle O'Brian employed to some > extent in life as well as art. For example, he wasn't Irish as he claimed > to be. > > I don't think the phonology works for Iroquoian, anyway, though v is > sometimes used for a nasal vowel. > > > > Sounds like a good interpretation. There are lots of unacknowledged jokes in his books Bruce From boris at terracom.net Thu Apr 22 17:33:51 2004 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 12:33:51 -0500 Subject: horse paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for the clarification, I missed the article (looking for it today), it does appear, though, that they both connect back to same source? Alan K -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of David Costa Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 12:11 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: horse paper Looks like our thoughts overlapped here... Actually, I published an article that discussed the name 'Illinois' 4 years ago (Miami-Illinois Tribe Names. Papers of the 31st Algonquian Conference, pp. 30-53. {2000}). The name 'Illinois' does not come from the Illinois word for 'man', /ireniwa/. In fact, it comes from French, which borrowed it from the old Ojibwe name for the Illinois, /ilinwe/, pl. /ilinwek/. This in turn is an Ojibwe borrowing from Illinois /irenweewa/ 'he speaks Illinois, speaks in the regular way'. If you want to read my full argumentation for this etymology, it's on page 46-47 of the article. Dave > That brings to mind the Proto_Algonquin term for " ordinary or even > original, or plain ( =real) *eleni-" which shows as "leni-" below, it > appears also in PA (Bloomfield) *eleneq$ipa "mallard duck" and perhaps > in *elenyiwa "man" (which is the source of the ethnonym "Illinois"). > > Alan K -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Apr 22 19:45:39 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 12:45:39 -0700 Subject: horse paper Message-ID: Not sure what you mean by 'same source'; they both contain PA */elen-/ 'ordinary, real'. However, they contain different finals: Illinois /irenweewa/ 'he speaks Illinois, speaks one's language' contains /-(i)wee-/, a 'by speech' final, while Illinois /ireniwa/ 'man' (< PA */elenyiwa/) appears to be a very old construction meaning something like 'real being, ordinary being'. Dave Thanks for the clarification, I missed the article (looking for it today), it does appear, though, that they both connect back to same source? Alan K -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of David Costa Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 12:11 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: horse paper Looks like our thoughts overlapped here... Actually, I published an article that discussed the name 'Illinois' 4 years ago (Miami-Illinois Tribe Names. Papers of the 31st Algonquian Conference, pp. 30-53. {2000}). The name 'Illinois' does not come from the Illinois word for 'man', /ireniwa/. In fact, it comes from French, which borrowed it from the old Ojibwe name for the Illinois, /ilinwe/, pl. /ilinwek/. This in turn is an Ojibwe borrowing from Illinois /irenweewa/ 'he speaks Illinois, speaks in the regular way'. If you want to read my full argumentation for this etymology, it's on page 46-47 of the article. Dave > That brings to mind the Proto_Algonquin term for " ordinary or even > original, or plain ( =real) *eleni-" which shows as "leni-" below, it > appears also in PA (Bloomfield) *eleneq$ipa "mallard duck" and perhaps > in *elenyiwa "man" (which is the source of the ethnonym "Illinois"). > > Alan K -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From boris at terracom.net Thu Apr 22 19:58:33 2004 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:58:33 -0500 Subject: horse paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That's what I meant, constructions based on PA */elen-/ 'ordinary, real'. Alan K -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of David Costa Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 2:46 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: horse paper Not sure what you mean by 'same source'; they both contain PA */elen-/ 'ordinary, real'. However, they contain different finals: Illinois /irenweewa/ 'he speaks Illinois, speaks one's language' contains /-(i)wee-/, a 'by speech' final, while Illinois /ireniwa/ 'man' (< PA */elenyiwa/) appears to be a very old construction meaning something like 'real being, ordinary being'. Dave Thanks for the clarification, I missed the article (looking for it today), it does appear, though, that they both connect back to same source? Alan K -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of David Costa Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 12:11 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: horse paper Looks like our thoughts overlapped here... Actually, I published an article that discussed the name 'Illinois' 4 years ago (Miami-Illinois Tribe Names. Papers of the 31st Algonquian Conference, pp. 30-53. {2000}). The name 'Illinois' does not come from the Illinois word for 'man', /ireniwa/. In fact, it comes from French, which borrowed it from the old Ojibwe name for the Illinois, /ilinwe/, pl. /ilinwek/. This in turn is an Ojibwe borrowing from Illinois /irenweewa/ 'he speaks Illinois, speaks in the regular way'. If you want to read my full argumentation for this etymology, it's on page 46-47 of the article. Dave > That brings to mind the Proto_Algonquin term for " ordinary or even > original, or plain ( =real) *eleni-" which shows as "leni-" below, it > appears also in PA (Bloomfield) *eleneq$ipa "mallard duck" and perhaps > in *elenyiwa "man" (which is the source of the ethnonym "Illinois"). > > Alan K -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Thu Apr 22 21:58:59 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 15:58:59 -0600 Subject: "real" nouns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In Lakhota shoes are shoes, and moccasins are "real shoes". I can't recall which language I heard this in, but I have also heard of chickens being named for "turkey", and then turkeys being "real turkeys". It looks like an idea that occurred to more than one group about more than one item. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 21 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 jschudli at indiana.edu wrote: > > So horses are "dogs" and actual canine type dogs are "real dogs". I'm sure > > there are other introduced items that follow the same pattern as well, but I > > can't dredge them up from memory at the moment. > > OP: tta' 'deerlike animal' ('ruminant' is the fancy gloss) > tta'=xti 'deer' = 'real deer' > > PpaN'kka 'Ponca' > PpaN'kka=xti 'subclan of one of the Ponca clans' = 'real Poncas' > > (I think there are some other lexicalized =xti 'real' forms, but I'm > forgetting them.) > > A similar pattern: > > ni'kkas^iNga 'person' (historically 'little person'?) > ni'kkas^iNga ukke'dhiN (kk?) 'Indian' = 'common variety of person' > > wa(a)'xe 'whiteman' > wa(a)'xe ukke'dhiN (kk?) 'Frenchman' = 'common variety of whiteman' > From wildernessexplorers at juno.com Fri Apr 23 00:21:54 2004 From: wildernessexplorers at juno.com (Benjamin Bruce) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:21:54 -0500 Subject: Tonkawa horses Message-ID: Hi Wallace, Do you happen to know whether Hoijer recorded any type of greeting in his _Tonkawa Texts_, or do you have a copy of them handy that you could look through? I'm doing a project to find a greeting (preferably "hello") in every tribal language of Oklahoma, and now I'm down to two: Tonkawa and Plains Apache. So, if you know of any greeting that Hoijer may have recorded in Tonkawa, please let me know! U-ra! (Thanks in Comanche) Benjamin Bruce Hello Oklahoma! http://hello-oklahoma.niwic.net ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Fri Apr 23 02:39:35 2004 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:39:35 -0500 Subject: "real" nouns Message-ID: Yes -- I've also read somewhere about a language where sheep are "rabbit" and rabbits are "real rabbit" ... seems to me that article had a lot of similar examples, some involving introduced plants, from various parts of the world. It's been a long time, though, and the details are really dim in my mind... Seems like a perfectly reasonable way to name things; not very surprising. In Lakhota shoes are shoes, and moccasins are "real shoes". I can't recall which language I heard this in, but I have also heard of chickens being named for "turkey", and then turkeys being "real turkeys". It looks like an idea that occurred to more than one group about more than one item. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 21 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 jschudli at indiana.edu wrote: > > So horses are "dogs" and actual canine type dogs are "real dogs". I'm sure > > there are other introduced items that follow the same pattern as well, but I > > can't dredge them up from memory at the moment. > > OP: tta' 'deerlike animal' ('ruminant' is the fancy gloss) > tta'=xti 'deer' = 'real deer' > > PpaN'kka 'Ponca' > PpaN'kka=xti 'subclan of one of the Ponca clans' = 'real Poncas' > > (I think there are some other lexicalized =xti 'real' forms, but I'm > forgetting them.) > > A similar pattern: > > ni'kkas^iNga 'person' (historically 'little person'?) > ni'kkas^iNga ukke'dhiN (kk?) 'Indian' = 'common variety of person' > > wa(a)'xe 'whiteman' > wa(a)'xe ukke'dhiN (kk?) 'Frenchman' = 'common variety of whiteman' > From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Fri Apr 23 09:37:51 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:37:51 +0100 Subject: Tonkawa horses Message-ID: Just a note: in case Benjamin doesn't know about this, thre is work on Plains Apache by Marie-Louise Liebe-Harkort and also a dissertation by William Bittle. Anthony >>> wildernessexplorers at juno.com 23/04/2004 01:21:54 >>> Hi Wallace, Do you happen to know whether Hoijer recorded any type of greeting in his _Tonkawa Texts_, or do you have a copy of them handy that you could look through? I'm doing a project to find a greeting (preferably "hello") in every tribal language of Oklahoma, and now I'm down to two: Tonkawa and Plains Apache. So, if you know of any greeting that Hoijer may have recorded in Tonkawa, please let me know! U-ra! (Thanks in Comanche) Benjamin Bruce Hello Oklahoma! http://hello-oklahoma.niwic.net ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From wildernessexplorers at juno.com Fri Apr 23 15:19:26 2004 From: wildernessexplorers at juno.com (Benjamin Bruce) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:19:26 -0500 Subject: Tonkawa horses Message-ID: Sorry, I didn't mean to send this to the whole list! I just hit 'reply' and forgot to change the e-mail address. On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:21:54 -0500 Benjamin Bruce writes: > Hi Wallace, > > Do you happen to know whether Hoijer recorded any type of greeting > in his _Tonkawa Texts_, or do you have a copy of them handy that you > could look through? > I'm doing a project to find a greeting (preferably "hello") > in every tribal language of Oklahoma, and now I'm down to two: > Tonkawa and Plains Apache. So, if you know of any greeting that > Hoijer may have recorded in Tonkawa, please let me know! > > U-ra! (Thanks in Comanche) > > Benjamin Bruce > Hello Oklahoma! > http://hello-oklahoma.niwic.net > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From rankin at ku.edu Fri Apr 23 18:03:35 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:03:35 -0500 Subject: Kaw dogs/horses. Message-ID: In Kaw 'horse' has taken over $oNge entirely, although there is a Spanish synonym, kkawaye. 'Dog' is $oNgiidaN, contracted from $oNge+oyudaN 'dog+pull-on', i.e., the animal used to pull the travois. This seems to be the common thing in languages -- the new object requiring a name takes over an older name completely and the object the name used to refer to gets a modifier or a replacement term. Bob From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Sun Apr 25 19:25:16 2004 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 12:25:16 -0700 Subject: Tonkawa horses In-Reply-To: <20040422.212855.2644.5.WildernessExplorers@juno.com> Message-ID: Hi Bruce, A cursory look at Hoijer's materials didn't bring up a greeting. I don't think it's something that's likely to come up in texts of the kind he collected, and his dictionary is just Tonkawa-English. However, you yourself might want to take a look at University of California Publications in Linguistics 73 (1972). I'm wondering what you have for Caddo. The regular greeting is kuha?ahat, with an accent (high pitch) on the u. (? is a glottal stop.) That's the slow speech form. In fast speech, which is normally used for greetings, the intervocalic h's are lost, so it's kua?a:t (again with an accent on the u). It means something like "just good". (The adjective "good" is ha?ahat, without the prefix ku-.) Best wishes, Wally > Do you happen to know whether Hoijer recorded any type of greeting in his > _Tonkawa Texts_, or do you have a copy of them handy that you could look > through? > I'm doing a project to find a greeting (preferably "hello") in every > tribal language of Oklahoma, and now I'm down to two: Tonkawa and Plains > Apache. So, if you know of any greeting that Hoijer may have recorded in > Tonkawa, please let me know! From Rgraczyk at aol.com Mon Apr 26 14:53:00 2004 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Randolph Graczyk) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:53:00 EDT Subject: horse paper Message-ID: In a message dated 4/21/2004 2:42:14 PM Mountain Daylight Time, jschudli at indiana.edu writes: > always liked the way Crow handled such "new things" - I don't remember the > actual Crow, since this comes from a class Randy taught 5 or 6 years ago, > but > the gist is that many new things, including horses, simply co-opted a name > that already existed in Crow. > > So horses are "dogs" and actual canine type dogs are "real dogs". I'm sure > there are other introduced items that follow the same pattern as well, but I > > can't dredge them up from memory at the moment. > > Crow has both a 'dog' word and an 'elk' word for horse. The non-possessed form for horse is iichi'ili, which is the original word for elk, as illustrated by compounds like iichi'il-ihta 'elk tooth'. The possessed form is isaashka' 'his horse', the original possessed form for dog. The possessed form for dog today is isaashka-kaa'shi (kaa'shi is a suffix meaning 'real, genuine') Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 26 18:05:32 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 13:05:32 -0500 Subject: [Spam:****** SpamScore] Re: horse paper Message-ID: I'm afraid the University of Kansas' "spam filter" software thinks that every message with any extra large font is now "spam" and so marks it (see subject line, above). I try to look carefully at my mail, and my 65 year old eyes actually like the larger typeface. But this is going to continue to be a problem, since the University filters all incoming mail and users like me are not allowed to "mess with" the programming. -----Original Message----- From: Rgraczyk at aol.com [mailto:Rgraczyk at aol.com] Crow has both a 'dog' word and an 'elk' word for horse. The non-possessed form for horse is iichi'ili, which is the original word for elk, as illustrated by compounds like iichi'il-ihta 'elk tooth'. The possessed form is isaashka' 'his horse', the original possessed form for dog. The possessed form for dog today is isaashka-kaa'shi (kaa'shi is a suffix meaning 'real, genuine') Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Mon Apr 26 18:50:39 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 19:50:39 +0100 Subject: 'Real' nouns and marking reversal Message-ID: Dear all: There's a paper on marking reversals of exactly the sort we are discussing, by Cecil H Brown and te late Stanley R Witkowski, in Language in the mid-1980s. And there's a paper on 'real, true and genine' in Indian languages, somewhere, by the ineffable Albert Samuel Gatschet from about 1880. 'Horse' in Tonkawa was, inter alia, something like 'ekWanesxaw (W is superscript) 'horse for dragging'. I'll have to check the phonemic shape of this form, but it was something like that. 'ekWan means 'dog'. Anthony From boris at terracom.net Mon Apr 26 19:06:41 2004 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:06:41 -0500 Subject: 'Real' nouns and marking reversal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Anthony According to Hoijer 1946: ?ekWan 'dog', ?ekWansxaw 'horse' (?ekWan- 'dog', -s 'instrumental suffix, -xaw 'to move far(?)' Alan K -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Grant Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 1:51 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: 'Real' nouns and marking reversal Dear all: There's a paper on marking reversals of exactly the sort we are discussing, by Cecil H Brown and te late Stanley R Witkowski, in Language in the mid-1980s. And there's a paper on 'real, true and genine' in Indian languages, somewhere, by the ineffable Albert Samuel Gatschet from about 1880. 'Horse' in Tonkawa was, inter alia, something like 'ekWanesxaw (W is superscript) 'horse for dragging'. I'll have to check the phonemic shape of this form, but it was something like that. 'ekWan means 'dog'. Anthony From ahartley at d.umn.edu Tue Apr 27 01:40:49 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 20:40:49 -0500 Subject: hankee Message-ID: Here's what I have from Lewis and Clark: --- APPLE, WHITE Indian breadroot, Pediomelum [formerly Psoralea] esculentum, of the pea family. Lewis [4.125] describes the edible root as of "a fine white substance, somewhat porus, spungy and moist, and reather tough before it is dressed." The name is a literal translation of the Canadian French pomme blanche. See POTATO. the Indian woman [Sacagawea]..gathered a considerable quantity of the white apples of which she eat so heartily in their raw state [19 Jun 05 ML 4.309] the men dug great parcel of the root which the Nativs call Hankee and the engagees the white apple [10 Aug 06 WC 8.288] --- On 10 Aug. 1806, Clark was on the Missouri in western North Dakota near the junction among the territories of the Crows, Hidatsas, and Assiniboines. Can anyone identify the language and the meaning of "hankee" for me? Thanks, Alan P.S. And because I cross-referenced it and because we've discussed both these species before: --- POTATO The edible tuber of the Indian potato or ground-nut, Apios americana. The plant is a perennial vine of the pea family. For another root-plant of the pea family, see (WHITE) APPLE. The common wild pittatoe…form another article of food in savage life[.] this they boil untill the skin leaves the pulp easily..the pettatoe…is exposed on a scaffold to the sun or a slow fire untill it is thoroughly dryed [winter 03-04 ML 2.223] I saw Homney [hominy] of ground Potatos [26 Sep 04 WC 3.117] Also, abbreviated in the plural as potas., = WAPATO. Janey[—]in favour of a place where there is plenty of Potas. [24 Nov 05 WC 6.084] --- From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 27 14:37:46 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 08:37:46 -0600 Subject: MVS 'eight' (Re: Behind the 8-ball) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Michael McCafferty asks: > As many of you know, the Miami-Illinois term for "eight" /paraani/ is, as > Bob Rankin pointed out in an article in IJAL several years ago, a > borrowing from a Siouan language. Tutelo typically gets the nod. > > Can anyone suggest why this happened? No, not that Bob wrote it up, but > that such a borrowing occurred. It's one of the strangest things. I > imagine, since we're talking numbers, that it was borrowed probably in the > process of trading. But does the number 8 have any mythological meaning? An alternative analysis that I have offered in the past is that Miami-Illinois paraare (later palaani) 'eight' might come from a source in Mississippi Valley something like Ioway-Otoe. The Tutelo form (per Oliverio) is pala'ani, in the system: Tu 'two' noN'oNpaa 'three' la'ani(N) 'six' aka'aspee ~ akaaspe'e 'seven' saako'omiNiN 'eight' pala'ani(N) Disregarding variation in vowel marking for length and accent, the variants are essentially palali and palani. This reflects l > n / __ VN - the final vowel of 'three' is iN - an allophonic change not always indicated in Hale's transcriptions. Biloxi and Ofo have Bi Of 'two' noN'pa nuN'pha 'three' da'n(N) ta'ni(N) 'six' akaxpe' akape' 'seven' noN'pahudi fa'kumi(N) 'eight' dan'hudi' pa'tani(N) In Mississippi Valley we find: Te OP IO Wi 'two' nuN'pa naNba' nuN(uN)'we nuNuN'p 'three' ya'mni(N) dha'bdhiN da(a)'i daani' 'six' s^a'kpe s^a'ppe sa(a)'gwe ha(a)kewe' 'seven' s^ako'wiN ppe'naNba sa(a)'hmaN s^aagoo'wiN 'eight' s^aglo'gha ppe'dhabdhiN greeraa'briN harumaN'k The reconstructions supported by these forms are: 'two' *nuNuN'pa 'three' *raa'priN 'six' *s^aa'kpe ~ *(a)kaa's^pe (with metathesis) 'seven' *s^aakoowiN ~ *s^aakwaN (Winnebago looks like a Dakota loan) 'eight' ??? For 'eight' we find Dakota s^aglo'gha, which follows in the *s^aak- series, but is otherwise unattested, Winnebago harumaN'k, which seems to be something like 'lying on it (by hand)', and a collection of forms that seem to be derived from 'three', i.e., presumably forms that indicate something like 'five' (or a hand of fingers) + 'three'. In Dhegiha and Biloxi there are parallel forms for 'seven' based on 'two'. (Note that other Dhegiha doesn't always agree with Omaha-Ponca; Osage, for example, has hki'etopa, apparently referring to a pair of fours.) The formations for 'eight' forms based on 'three' differ, but Tutelo and Ofo seem to have *pa or perhaps *hpa followed by their respective reflexes of 'three', while Dhegiha has *hpe followed by its reflex of three. Dhegiha also uses the *hpe-construction with 'seven'. The meaning of *(h)pa or *hpe is unknown, but it might perhaps be *hpa 'nose, head' (pan-Siouan) or *hpe 'forehead' (MV only). Speculatively finger gestures unward or near the head might have been opposed to ones elsewhere to indicate the upper five of the decade. IO has an indiosyncratic formation with *kre + 'three'. What is interesting here is that the form of 'three' exemplified is not the form of 'three' found in the simple form. IO and Winnebago agree in having reflexes of *RaaniN for 'three'. The simplification of the medial cluster *pr to *R is exhibited elsewhere in these languages in initials of noun (cf. IO nyiN(iN), Wi niNiN for 'water') and medially in 'bean' (IO uNnyiNe, Wi huNuNniN'k) vs. Da mniN 'water' or omni(N)c^a 'bean'. So -raabriN in greeraa'briN seems a poor match with IO historical phonology. It stands out from daa'i like tertiary or ternary or trinary stand out from three in English. I would suggest then that IO 'eight' is probably a loan from a loan from a MV language where raabriN or something like it was the usual form for 'three'. The big problem with this is that no other Siouan language has the *kre- construction for 'eight' (or even 'seven'). This is either an insurmountable problem or an interesting suggestion that we don't have a full range of Siouan languages to work with, depending on your point of view. Whenever I'm out on this limb, I always ask myself, if greeraa'briN is a loan, what might it have replaced? Presumably something within the range of 'eight' forms we know from other Siouan languages, and one of those possibilities there is a form based on *hpa or *hpe + 'three', which, if IO 'three' is any basis on which to judge, would have been something like *hpaRaaniN or *hpeRaaniN. Either of these forms seems to me to be as likely a source of Miami-Illinois paraare ~ palaani 'eight' as the Tutelo (or Ofo) forms, though, of course, there is little to chose between with any of them as far as form, once you start mapping "r" sounds. As to how such a form could have gotten into Miami-Illinois, the usual scenario with Tutelo (or Ofo or a hypothetical early form of Biloxi or some form of Proto-Southeastern) is trade interactions leading to MI borrowing of the source numeral system, or, at least of some of its numeral terms, with 'eight' ending up a fossilized relict of this situation. But if the source is MV Siouan we have a new scenario to consider. We know that the Michigamea at least among the Illinois tribes spoke a rather different language, and we have some evidence that it may have been a Siouan language. In that case, perhaps, a Siouan form for 'eight' might be a relict of the fusion of Siouan-speaking groups into MI. In which case, perhaps paraare or palaani may represent the Michigamea form of 'eight', which, as I've shown, is rather like what a hypothetical *hpa-based "regular" form of 'eight' might have looked like in early IO. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Tue Apr 27 15:10:48 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 10:10:48 -0500 Subject: white apple Message-ID: Siouan names for white apple, Indian breadroot (Pediomelum esculentum): Dakota tí-psiN-na, T. -la (Riggs) Hidatsa ahí (Matthews, Maximilian) Mandan mahá (Maximilian) Alan From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Tue Apr 27 15:14:30 2004 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Q.) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 10:14:30 -0500 Subject: travel to Wayne In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Catherine and all, I just got tickets on American Airlines to arrive from DFW on June 10 at 10:59am in Omaha. The connections and prices for Sioux City were very undesirable. Is anyone else arriving in Omaha at around that time on June 10? What are the possibilities for ride-sharing, car-rental sharing or bus connections to Wayne? Departing Sunday from Omaha at 3:21 pm. Carolyn Quintero From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Tue Apr 27 15:40:54 2004 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 10:40:54 -0500 Subject: travel to Wayne Message-ID: Possibilities for bus connections: Nil. There is basically no public transportation in Nebraska Possibilities for ride/rental sharing: I wouldn't mind making an airport run on the 10th and one on the 13th. If everyone who is flying in will send me their schedules, I'll try to coordinate rides, either by me picking up a group, or else by sharing a rental. Glad you're coming, Carolyn! Catherine "Carolyn Q." et> cc: Sent by: Subject: travel to Wayne owner-siouan at lists.c olorado.edu 04/27/04 10:14 AM Please respond to siouan Hello Catherine and all, I just got tickets on American Airlines to arrive from DFW on June 10 at 10:59am in Omaha. The connections and prices for Sioux City were very undesirable. Is anyone else arriving in Omaha at around that time on June 10? What are the possibilities for ride-sharing, car-rental sharing or bus connections to Wayne? Departing Sunday from Omaha at 3:21 pm. Carolyn Quintero From Rgraczyk at aol.com Tue Apr 27 16:01:35 2004 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Randolph Graczyk) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 12:01:35 EDT Subject: white apple Message-ID: In a message dated 4/27/2004 9:23:09 AM Mountain Daylight Time, ahartley at d.umn.edu writes: > Siouan names for white apple, Indian breadroot (Pediomelum esculentum): > > Dakota tí-psiN-na, T. -la (Riggs) > Hidatsa ahí (Matthews, Maximilian) > Mandan mahá (Maximilian) > > Alan > > The Crow form is ihi'. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Apr 27 16:04:19 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 09:04:19 -0700 Subject: MVS 'eight' Message-ID: I have some serious misgivings with the idea that M-I 'eight' is borrowed from Iowa-Otoe and not Tutelo. My objections fall into two categories, linguistic and geographic. In terms of the linguistics, I think it's risky and unnecessary to link the Miami-Illinois forms to a hypothetical, unattested, archaic Iowa-Otoe form, */hpaRaaniN/~*/hpeRaaniN/, especially when the only *attested* I-O form is so different (/greeraa'briN/). Moreover, hypothetical Old Iowa-Otoe */hpaRaaniN/~*/hpeRaaniN/ is actually NOT as good a match for the Miami-Illinois forms; the relevant M-I forms for 'eight' are /paraare/ and /palaani/. These perfectly reflect the two attested Tutelo variants and . With Tutelo we have a language that actually ATTESTS both the variants found in Miami-Illinois. Thus, we get the Miami-Illinois r/n variation for free by saying it's a Tutelo loan. I don't think a loan from I-O */hpaRaaniN/~*/hpeRaaniN/ would do that. By assuming the M-I forms are borrowed from Tutelo, we don't have to hypothesize anything at all. We have to hypothesize quite a lot if we say M-I borrowed the word from Iowa-Otoe. My geographic objection is more hypothetical, but the gist of it is that when you start to trace where the M-I speakers were in the earliest historical times, or where they would have been pre-1492, the evidence strongly hints that they were a good deal further EAST than they were at first contact. From all evidence, the Illinois were very recent arrivals into what is now Illinois, possibly not entering that area at all until the Iroquois Wars. When you go further back in time, it starts looking like the M-I speakers were in Indiana before they were in Illinois, and in Ohio before they were in Indiana. That puts them in a place where it's more likely they would have interacted with Tutelo speakers than with I-O speakers, and WAY more likely than them interacting with Michigamea speakers. The M-I speakers' presence in the Michigamea area was probably very recent. Of course, this whole argument could be settled if other clear Tutelo loans into Miami-Illinois could be found, other than just 'eight'. After a fair deal of looking, I've never been able to find any. It seems to be the only word the M-I's borrowed from Tutelo, unless you say that the oddly deformed M-I word for 'six', /kaakaathswi/, is perhaps *influenced* by Tutelo /aka'aspee/. But I'm not really committed to that idea. David >> Michael McCafferty asks: >> As many of you know, the Miami-Illinois term for "eight" /paraani/ is, as >> Bob Rankin pointed out in an article in IJAL several years ago, a >> borrowing from a Siouan language. Tutelo typically gets the nod. >> >> Can anyone suggest why this happened? No, not that Bob wrote it up, but >> that such a borrowing occurred. It's one of the strangest things. I >> imagine, since we're talking numbers, that it was borrowed probably in the >> process of trading. But does the number 8 have any mythological meaning? > > An alternative analysis that I have offered in the past is that > Miami-Illinois paraare (later palaani) 'eight' might come from a source in > Mississippi Valley something like Ioway-Otoe. > > The Tutelo form (per Oliverio) is pala'ani, in the system: > Tu > 'two' noN'oNpaa > 'three' la'ani(N) > 'six' aka'aspee ~ akaaspe'e > 'seven' saako'omiNiN > 'eight' pala'ani(N) > > Disregarding variation in vowel marking for length and accent, the > variants are essentially palali and palani. This reflects l > n / __ VN - > the final vowel of 'three' is iN - an allophonic change not always > indicated in Hale's transcriptions. > > Biloxi and Ofo have > Bi Of > 'two' noN'pa nuN'pha > 'three' da'n(N) ta'ni(N) > 'six' akaxpe' akape' > 'seven' noN'pahudi fa'kumi(N) > 'eight' dan'hudi' pa'tani(N) > > In Mississippi Valley we find: > Te OP IO Wi > 'two' nuN'pa naNba' nuN(uN)'we nuNuN'p > 'three' ya'mni(N) dha'bdhiN da(a)'i daani' > 'six' s^a'kpe s^a'ppe sa(a)'gwe ha(a)kewe' > 'seven' s^ako'wiN ppe'naNba sa(a)'hmaN s^aagoo'wiN > 'eight' s^aglo'gha ppe'dhabdhiN greeraa'briN harumaN'k > > The reconstructions supported by these forms are: > > 'two' *nuNuN'pa > 'three' *raa'priN > 'six' *s^aa'kpe ~ *(a)kaa's^pe (with metathesis) > 'seven' *s^aakoowiN ~ *s^aakwaN (Winnebago looks like a Dakota loan) > 'eight' ??? > > For 'eight' we find Dakota s^aglo'gha, which follows in the *s^aak- > series, but is otherwise unattested, Winnebago harumaN'k, which seems to > be something like 'lying on it (by hand)', and a collection of forms that > seem to be derived from 'three', i.e., presumably forms that indicate > something like 'five' (or a hand of fingers) + 'three'. In Dhegiha and > Biloxi there are parallel forms for 'seven' based on 'two'. (Note that > other Dhegiha doesn't always agree with Omaha-Ponca; Osage, for example, > has hki'etopa, apparently referring to a pair of fours.) > > The formations for 'eight' forms based on 'three' differ, but Tutelo and > Ofo seem to have *pa or perhaps *hpa followed by their respective reflexes > of 'three', while Dhegiha has *hpe followed by its reflex of three. > Dhegiha also uses the *hpe-construction with 'seven'. The meaning of > *(h)pa or *hpe is unknown, but it might perhaps be *hpa 'nose, head' > (pan-Siouan) or *hpe 'forehead' (MV only). Speculatively finger gestures > unward or near the head might have been opposed to ones elsewhere to > indicate the upper five of the decade. > > IO has an indiosyncratic formation with *kre + 'three'. What is > interesting here is that the form of 'three' exemplified is not the form > of 'three' found in the simple form. IO and Winnebago agree in having > reflexes of *RaaniN for 'three'. The simplification of the medial cluster > *pr to *R is exhibited elsewhere in these languages in initials of noun > (cf. IO nyiN(iN), Wi niNiN for 'water') and medially in 'bean' (IO > uNnyiNe, Wi huNuNniN'k) vs. Da mniN 'water' or omni(N)c^a 'bean'. So > -raabriN in greeraa'briN seems a poor match with IO historical phonology. > It stands out from daa'i like tertiary or ternary or trinary stand out > from three in English. > > I would suggest then that IO 'eight' is probably a loan from a loan from a > MV language where raabriN or something like it was the usual form for > 'three'. The big problem with this is that no other Siouan language has > the *kre- construction for 'eight' (or even 'seven'). This is either an > insurmountable problem or an interesting suggestion that we don't have a > full range of Siouan languages to work with, depending on your point of > view. > > Whenever I'm out on this limb, I always ask myself, if greeraa'briN is a > loan, what might it have replaced? Presumably something within the range > of 'eight' forms we know from other Siouan languages, and one of those > possibilities there is a form based on *hpa or *hpe + 'three', which, if > IO 'three' is any basis on which to judge, would have been something like > *hpaRaaniN or *hpeRaaniN. Either of these forms seems to me to be as > likely a source of Miami-Illinois paraare ~ palaani 'eight' as the Tutelo > (or Ofo) forms, though, of course, there is little to chose between with > any of them as far as form, once you start mapping "r" sounds. > > As to how such a form could have gotten into Miami-Illinois, the usual > scenario with Tutelo (or Ofo or a hypothetical early form of Biloxi or > some form of Proto-Southeastern) is trade interactions leading to MI > borrowing of the source numeral system, or, at least of some of its > numeral terms, with 'eight' ending up a fossilized relict of this > situation. But if the source is MV Siouan we have a new scenario to > consider. We know that the Michigamea at least among the Illinois tribes > spoke a rather different language, and we have some evidence that it may > have been a Siouan language. In that case, perhaps, a Siouan form for > 'eight' might be a relict of the fusion of Siouan-speaking groups into MI. > In which case, perhaps paraare or palaani may represent the Michigamea > form of 'eight', which, as I've shown, is rather like what a hypothetical > *hpa-based "regular" form of 'eight' might have looked like in early IO. > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 27 16:19:15 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 10:19:15 -0600 Subject: travel to Wayne In-Reply-To: <000901c42c6a$56cf05a0$1009500a@carolynwe2gywq> Message-ID: I'm thinking of driving out from Denver. Normally I'd go north of Omaha, cutting north at Grand Island, but if none of the Kansans are coming through Omaha I could make an exception. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 27 16:20:38 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 10:20:38 -0600 Subject: travel to Wayne In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > Possibilities for bus connections: Nil. There is basically no public > transportation in Nebraska So, nothing's changed since 1985? From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 27 16:31:25 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 10:31:25 -0600 Subject: white apple In-Reply-To: <408E77F8.4040807@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > Siouan names for white apple, Indian breadroot (Pediomelum esculentum): > > Dakota tí-psiN-na, T. -la (Riggs) Sa thipsiN=na (=daN > =na / VN__) Te thipsiN=la =daN, =la are, of course, the diminutive. Roots of the form *pSi ~ *pSiN (S = s, s^) are common in Siouan roots for aquatic plants with edible parts, especially edible roots (no pun intended). I believe we've been through that fairly recently and the forms are all in the archives. > Hidatsa ahi' (Matthews, Maximilian) Crow ihi' (Graczyk) > Mandan mahá (Maximilian) From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Apr 27 17:33:42 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 12:33:42 -0500 Subject: travel to Wayne In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I live not too far from Omaha, and I could offer a ride to one stout person or two skinny ones if my truck gets fixed by then. Keep me in mind as a fall-back option anyway. ;-) Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 27 18:13:45 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 12:13:45 -0600 Subject: Rood's Law (Re: white apple) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > Sa =daN > =na / VN__ This, of course, is Rood's Law, at least until we can come up with something for that name with a bit more moment than a minor case in the realization of a diminutive. Anyway, I learned this conditioning from David. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Apr 27 18:20:27 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 13:20:27 -0500 Subject: MVS 'eight' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David wrote: > My geographic objection is more hypothetical, but the gist of it is that > when you start to trace where the M-I speakers were in the earliest > historical times, or where they would have been pre-1492, the evidence > strongly hints that they were a good deal further EAST than they were at > first contact. From all evidence, the Illinois were very recent arrivals > into what is now Illinois, possibly not entering that area at all until the > Iroquois Wars. When you go further back in time, it starts looking like the > M-I speakers were in Indiana before they were in Illinois, and in Ohio > before they were in Indiana. That puts them in a place where it's more > likely they would have interacted with Tutelo speakers than with I-O > speakers, and WAY more likely than them interacting with Michigamea > speakers. The M-I speakers' presence in the Michigamea area was probably > very recent. Would this still be an objection if the early I-O speakers were originally located further to the east themselves? The sacred Legend recorded in Fletcher and La Flesche specifies that the Iowa were with the Omaha (Dhegihans?) when the latter made their luckless migration across the Mississippi after moving down the Ohio. Do we know who was living in the Indiana-Illinois area prior to the spread of the Miami-Illinois southwest from Lake Erie and the Maumee river region? I think we need to establish that these were not early Chiwere speakers before we rule out John's suggestion on geographical grounds. Oh, and exactly where is the Michigamea area? I think I missed this. Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 27 18:19:57 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 12:19:57 -0600 Subject: Denver to Wayne Message-ID: Looks like David Rood and I will be driving to Wayne together. He asks if anyone else is interested in getting there via Denver? kkk From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Apr 27 18:32:55 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 11:32:55 -0700 Subject: MVS 'eight' Message-ID: >> My geographic objection is more hypothetical, but the gist of it is that when >> you start to trace where the M-I speakers were in the earliest historical >> times, or where they would have been pre-1492, the evidence strongly hints >> that they were a good deal further EAST than they were at first contact. From >> all evidence, the Illinois were very recent arrivals into what is now >> Illinois, possibly not entering that area at all until the Iroquois Wars. >> When you go further back in time, it starts looking like the M-I speakers >> were in Indiana before they were in Illinois, and in Ohio before they were in >> Indiana. That puts them in a place where it's more likely they would have >> interacted with Tutelo speakers than with I-O speakers, and WAY more likely >> than them interacting with Michigamea speakers. The M-I speakers' presence in >> the Michigamea area was probably very recent. > Would this still be an objection if the early I-O speakers were originally > located further to the east themselves? The sacred Legend recorded in Fletcher > and La Flesche specifies that the Iowa were with the Omaha (Dhegihans?) when > the latter made their luckless migration across the Mississippi after moving > down the Ohio. Well, that would have been my next question... I imagine that when M-I speakers entered Indiana and Illinois (early 1600's?) whoever they bumped out probably spoke some kind of Siouan language. Maybe these were Chiwere speakers, maybe they were Dhegihans. This is really the realm of archaeology, tho, where I'm not qualified to speak. Does anyone know anything about where those groups were thought to be 400-500 years ago, based on archaeology? Anyway, my point is just that *before* the early population disruptions triggered by the Iroquois wars, I suspect the M-I speakers were closer to OVS speakers than to MVS speakers. > Do we know who was living in the Indiana-Illinois area prior to the spread of > the Miami-Illinois southwest from Lake Erie and the Maumee river region? I > think we need to establish that these were not early Chiwere speakers before > we rule out John's suggestion on geographical grounds. I understand your point. And this is why I consider my linguistic argumentation to be more important here than the geographical argumentation. Making arguments based on who was where in North America 500 years ago is always going to be conjectural. > Oh, and exactly where is the Michigamea area? I think I missed this. According to Ives's map, southeastern Missouri and northeastern Arkansas. Tho who *knows* where they were before that... Dave From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Tue Apr 27 20:27:11 2004 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Q.) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 15:27:11 -0500 Subject: travel to Wayne In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Reading between the lines, I think John is offering to pick me/us up at the Omaha airport on the 10th? Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of Koontz John E Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 11:19 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: travel to Wayne I'm thinking of driving out from Denver. Normally I'd go north of Omaha, cutting north at Grand Island, but if none of the Kansans are coming through Omaha I could make an exception. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 27 20:50:50 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 14:50:50 -0600 Subject: travel to Wayne In-Reply-To: <000601c42c96$0512a100$1009500a@carolynwe2gywq> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Carolyn Q. wrote: > Reading between the lines, I think John is offering to pick me/us up at the > Omaha airport on the 10th? Yes, although now your/y'all's ride depends on David, since he and I are carpooling, and he's driving. From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Tue Apr 27 20:55:53 2004 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Q.) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 15:55:53 -0500 Subject: travel to Wayne In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ok....how does David feel about this? (So I can either stop or start worrying about it.) Is anyone else flying into Omaha on June 10? Thanks, Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of Koontz John E Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 3:51 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: travel to Wayne On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Carolyn Q. wrote: > Reading between the lines, I think John is offering to pick me/us up at the > Omaha airport on the 10th? Yes, although now your/y'all's ride depends on David, since he and I are carpooling, and he's driving. From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Tue Apr 27 22:06:29 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 16:06:29 -0600 Subject: travel to Wayne In-Reply-To: <000601c42c96$0512a100$1009500a@carolynwe2gywq> Message-ID: We need to be sure to coordinate this. I'm going to be driving and John will be my passenger, but we probably won't get to eastern Nebraska until toward evening. Catherine, I think you should collect a list of people and arrival times and see if you need help with transportation. I'd be happy to do an airport run if I'm there in time. Carolyn, you better make firm arrangements with Catherine rather than with me or John. Best to all, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Carolyn Q. wrote: > Reading between the lines, I think John is offering to pick me/us up at the > Omaha airport on the 10th? > Carolyn > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of Koontz John E > Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 11:19 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: travel to Wayne > > > I'm thinking of driving out from Denver. Normally I'd go north of Omaha, > cutting north at Grand Island, but if none of the Kansans are coming > through Omaha I could make an exception. > > > From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Tue Apr 27 22:22:41 2004 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Q.) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 17:22:41 -0500 Subject: travel to Wayne In-Reply-To: Message-ID: OK, thanks David, I'll continue to coordinate through/with Catherine. Probably most folks haven't made firm plans yet. I'm surprised at myself to be this early. Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of ROOD DAVID S Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 5:06 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: travel to Wayne We need to be sure to coordinate this. I'm going to be driving and John will be my passenger, but we probably won't get to eastern Nebraska until toward evening. Catherine, I think you should collect a list of people and arrival times and see if you need help with transportation. I'd be happy to do an airport run if I'm there in time. Carolyn, you better make firm arrangements with Catherine rather than with me or John. Best to all, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Carolyn Q. wrote: > Reading between the lines, I think John is offering to pick me/us up at the > Omaha airport on the 10th? > Carolyn > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of Koontz John E > Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 11:19 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: travel to Wayne > > > I'm thinking of driving out from Denver. Normally I'd go north of Omaha, > cutting north at Grand Island, but if none of the Kansans are coming > through Omaha I could make an exception. > > > From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Wed Apr 28 01:45:31 2004 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:45:31 -0500 Subject: travel to Wayne Message-ID: Yes, I'll keep a list of arrival times and driving routes and such, as people let me know their plans, and in a few weeks we can match riders up with cars. So far we've got more ride offers (John/David and Rory) than ridees (Carolyn), but a couple of other people have mentioned flying without naming specific times, so there may be more rides wanted as everyone's plans get finalized. Keep those paper titles coming... I've heard from a dozen or so people so far, with lots of fascinating paper topics! Best, Catherine OK, thanks David, I'll continue to coordinate through/with Catherine. Probably most folks haven't made firm plans yet. I'm surprised at myself to be this early. Carolyn -----Original Message----- We need to be sure to coordinate this. I'm going to be driving and John will be my passenger, but we probably won't get to eastern Nebraska until toward evening. Catherine, I think you should collect a list of people and arrival times and see if you need help with transportation. I'd be happy to do an airport run if I'm there in time. Carolyn, you better make firm arrangements with Catherine rather than with me or John. Best to all, David From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 28 05:50:30 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 23:50:30 -0600 Subject: MVS 'eight' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, David Costa wrote: > In terms of the linguistics, I think it's risky and unnecessary to link > the Miami-Illinois forms to a hypothetical, unattested, archaic > Iowa-Otoe form, */hpaRaaniN/~*/hpeRaaniN/, especially when the only > *attested* I-O form is so different (/greeraa'briN/). I think this is more of a methodological objection than a linguistic one, though I certainly concede the reasonableness of methodological objections. Clearly you wouldn't object to a linguistic argument that English tert-iary isn't native in English because it doesn't exhibit the same pattern of Indo-European sound correspondences exhibited in third, but part of what might make you happier with that objection is the weight of data on English, the English lexicon, and Indo-European sound correspondences. We have more detailed information on English than we have on Ioway-Otoe. Even if I more or less corectly hypothesized ?third(iary) on a basis of other *t sets, you suspect I was treading on shifting sands one way or another. So it seems to me that you reject the number of hypotheses necessary, rather than the linguistic basis of the argument. Note: To be perfectly fair I have noticed some glitches with my "must be a loan" argument which I will elaborate upon separately. > Moreover, hypothetical Old Iowa-Otoe */hpaRaaniN/~*/hpeRaaniN/ is actually > NOT as good a match for the Miami-Illinois forms; the relevant M-I forms for > 'eight' are /paraare/ and /palaani/. These perfectly reflect the two > attested Tutelo variants and . > With Tutelo we have a language that actually ATTESTS both the variants > found in Miami-Illinois. The Tutelo variants are alternate perceptions of one thing, not a perceived alternation between two things. We can be reasonably certain that these two Tutelo variants are simply two different non-native perceptions of invariant /palaaniN/ (or we could write /palaaliN/, depending on our orthographical preferences). The same sort of perceptual variation occurs repeatedly when outsiders are faced with Siouan resonants. They would arise just as nicely with IO *hpaRaaniN as with Tutelo palaaniN. Of course, I should have written IO *phadaaniN, since PSi *hp becomes /ph/ and *R is /d ~ j^ ~ n/ in IO, depending on the next vowel's low-backness, high-frontness or nasality. So, putting myself in the place of a Nathaniel Hale or a speaker of Miami-Illinois trying to deal with an IO form like *phadaaniN, and assuming I heard all apical resonants as r or n, I might well write or perceive padaari ~ padaani. As far as d vs. r, while no one reports any difference between *R and *t in IO at present, it's likely the *R reflexes were more r-like than d in the past. Nevertheless, the d vs. r problem is potentially more serious than the r vs. n vs. l one. As I recall, Bob Rankin opted for Tutelo over Ofo partly because he though Tutelo l more like MI r or n than Ofo t (which might have been rather d-like). > My geographic objection is more hypothetical, but the gist of it is that > when you start to trace where the M-I speakers were in the earliest > historical times, or where they would have been pre-1492, the evidence > strongly hints that they were a good deal further EAST than they were at > first contact. From all evidence, the Illinois were very recent arrivals > into what is now Illinois, possibly not entering that area at all until > the Iroquois Wars. When you go further back in time, it starts looking > like the M-I speakers were in Indiana before they were in Illinois, and > in Ohio before they were in Indiana. That puts them in a place where > it's more likely they would have interacted with Tutelo speakers than > with I-O speakers, and WAY more likely than them interacting with > Michigamea speakers. The M-I speakers' presence in the Michigamea area > was probably very recent. But why do we need to assume that the Siouan 'eight' forms go as far back in MI as we can push them? We don't have any evidence of them, perforce, before contact. Could they have been borrowed after MI moved westward to the vicinity of the Mississippi? > Of course, this whole argument could be settled if other clear Tutelo loans > into Miami-Illinois could be found, other than just 'eight'. After a fair > deal of looking, I've never been able to find any. It seems to be the only > word the M-I's borrowed from Tutelo, unless you say that the oddly deformed > M-I word for 'six', /kaakaathswi/, is perhaps *influenced* by Tutelo > /aka'aspee/. But I'm not really committed to that idea. Tutelo /aka'aspee/ is definitely a clear Southeastern form. How does the MI 'six' form differ from other Algonquian forms? I wonder bacause I'd be tempted to call the Southeastern 'six' forms '"oddly deformed," too! From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 28 07:09:36 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 01:09:36 -0600 Subject: MVS 'eight' (Re: Behind the 8-ball) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: A few corrections and additional comments. > 'three' la'ani(N) Here I mean to represent an accented long vowel as deduced by Oliverio. Maybe I should have written aa'. Anyway, as usual ' is not a glottal stop. > Biloxi and Ofo have > Bi Of > 'two' noN'pa nuN'pha With Biloxi and Ofo I'm just adapting Dorsey as adapted by Swanton and Swanton, respectively, though I'm aiming at a hypothetical phonemicization of the data. > In Mississippi Valley we find: > Te OP IO Wi > 'three' ya'mni(N) dha'bdhiN da(a)'i daani' > 'seven' s^ako'wiN ppe'naNba sa(a)'hmaN s^aagoo'wiN > 'eight' s^aglo'gha ppe'dhabdhiN greeraa'briN harumaN'k > > The reconstructions supported by these forms are: > > 'seven' *s^aakoowiN ~ *s^aakwaN (Winnebago looks like a Dakota loan) I'm assuming that we should expect something more like the IO form in Wi, maybe *s^aagamaN or *s^aagamiN. The attested Wi form is exactly the Da form rendered in Wi orthography, while the IO differs considerably in detail and looks like it comes from PreIO *s^aakwaN, which would lead to Wi *s^aagamaN if it were also the Proto-Winnebago-Chiwere form. > *Entirely* Speculatively finger gestures u*p*ward or near the head might > have been opposed to ones elsewhere to indicate the upper five of the > decade. > IO has an indiosyncratic formation with *kre + 'three'. What is > interesting here is that the form of 'three' exemplified is not the form > of 'three' found in the simple form. IO and Winnebago agree in having > reflexes of *RaaniN for 'three'. The simplification of the medial cluster > *pr to *R ... Oops - very obscure. The initial *R here is required by initial IO d ~ j^ : Wi d (often written t in the sources). A real (initial) *t becomes (initial) j^ in Winnebago, so this is *RaaniN, not *taaniN, because Winnebago has daaniN', not *j^aaniN'. IO doesn't distinguish *t and *R, but Winnebago does. However, this *R is apparently irregular; some sort of reanalysis or analogy is indicated. The rest of Siouan seems pretty convinced that PSi had *rapriN 'three' (cf. Da yamni(N) or OP dhabdhiN). IO and Wi seem to arbitrarily convert the initial *r to *R. I actually referred to *R in connection with the medial *pr. Initial *pr in nouns does become *R in IO and Winnebago, cf. Teton ble 'lake', but IO j^e(e)' and Wi tee'. If the following vowel is nasal, *R is realized as n (or *r before a nasal vowel), as in *priN 'water', cf. Teton mniN', IO iN(iN)' and Wi niNiN'. In 'three' in IO and Winnebago this reduction of *pr to *R or actually to *r before a nasal vowel has occurred medially. In referring to *pr to *R I was thinking of of the way that IO and Winnebago have medial n where Teton has mn and OP has bdh. I mentioned 'bean' as another example in which *pr appears as *r before a nasal vowel (i.e., a surface n). I have now thought of a problem case in which *pr appears as unsimplified *pr medially in IO and Winnebago. Awkwardly enough it's another number! It's *kyepraN 'ten': Te OP IO Wi 'ten' (wi)kc^emna(N) gdheb(dh)aN grebraN kerepaNnaN'(iz^aN) In these forms Teton wi and Wi -iz^aN are both 'one' multipliers. (Probably - I'd expect wiN- in Teton.) OP has gdhebdhaN in Say's list from the early 1800s, but has gdhebaN everywhere in both dialects today. This is an irregular and arbitrary simplification of the form that seems to have caught on. The important thing to note is that IO has gre(e)'*br*aN and Winnebago has kere*paNn*aN. In this (numeral) form (also) medial *prVN does not reduce to nVN. One could argue that at last some medial *pr do not reduce and that *kreeraapriN 'eight' was somehow exempted from whatever processes converted PSi *raapriN 'three' to *RaaniN in Proto-WC. This implies, of course, that *kreeraapriN existed in Proto-WC or that *raapriN 'three' survived into Pre-IO where it led to the production of *kreeraapriN 'eight' and then changed to *RaaniN 'three' in IO and Wi independently. Anyway, we have an exception, though not a nice simple solution. It looks lik we'd expect IO *gre(e)'naN 'ten', but we don't find it. (Or Wi *kerenaN'.) Notice that the IO initial gree- in 'eight' could actually be from *kye, like the initial syllable in 'ten'. > Whenever I'm out on this limb, I always ask myself, if greeraa'briN is a > loan, what might it have replaced? Presumably something within the range > of 'eight' forms we know from other Siouan languages, and one of those > possibilities there is a form based on *hpa or *hpe + 'three', which, if > IO 'three' is any basis on which to judge, would have been something like > *hpaRaaniN or *hpeRaaniN. Or *phadaaniN or *phedaaniN to put things in something more like contemporary IO form and less like Proto-Siouan. These are modelled on Tutelo/Ofo and on Dhegiha, respectively, of course. Other possible antecedents might be *gre(e)daaniN (modelled on IO) or *saagroxa (modelled on Dakotan) or *arumaNe ~ *arumaNe (modelled on Winnebago), to appeal to other attested forms of 'eight' in Mississippi Valley Siouan. The attraction in appealing to Ioway-Otoe or possibly Michigamea (if a Siouan language) over Tutelo is entirely geographical. Ioway-Otoe was spoken next door to Miami-Illinois at contact, while Michigamea was spoken by some outlying or soon to be portions of the Illinois confederacy at contact - people who later were merged into the MI linguistic population. Tutelo, on the other hand was spoken east of the Appalachians in Piedmont Virginia, while Ofo was spoken in Arkansas. No contact of either with MI in the historical period is documented and no intimate contact in that period seems possible on general grounds of adjacency, unless perhaps between Michigamea and Ofo. We do, of course, hypothesize that Tutelo and Ofo were earlier spoken somewhere near the Ohio, or at least that their antecedents were once spoken near(er) the main body of Siouan languages. The latter is an absolutely minimal and necessary assumption, in fact. Siouan languages arise from earlier Siouan languages. They never come into existence spontaneously. But we know far less about when and where contact between MI (or early Algonquian) and Tutelo (or Ofo) (or early Southeastern Siouan) was possible than about when and where contact between MI and IO or MI and Michigamea was possible. In fact we can only hypothesize that contact between MI and Southeastern Siouan was ever possible. The strong Tutelo character of MI 'eight' form is actually part of the evidence supporting the surprising hypothesis of MI-Tutelo contact, rather than the Tutelo origin of MI 'eight' being rendered more plausible by the likelihood of MI-Tutelo contact. That's my case for a Mississippi Valley source of MI paraare. I admit it's not particularly strong and I don't want to suggest that we should so more than consider it as a footnote to Bob's Tutelo explanation. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Apr 28 13:24:35 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:24:35 -0500 Subject: MVS 'eight' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, David Costa wrote: > > >> My geographic objection is more hypothetical, but the gist of it is that when > >> you start to trace where the M-I speakers were in the earliest historical > >> times, or where they would have been pre-1492, the evidence strongly hints > >> that they were a good deal further EAST than they were at first contact. From > >> all evidence, the Illinois were very recent arrivals into what is now > >> Illinois, possibly not entering that area at all until the Iroquois Wars. > >> When you go further back in time, it starts looking like the M-I speakers > >> were in Indiana before they were in Illinois, and in Ohio before they were in > >> Indiana. That puts them in a place where it's more likely they would have > >> interacted with Tutelo speakers than with I-O speakers, and WAY more likely > >> than them interacting with Michigamea speakers. The M-I speakers' presence in > >> the Michigamea area was probably very recent. > > > Would this still be an objection if the early I-O speakers were originally > > located further to the east themselves? The sacred Legend recorded in Fletcher > > and La Flesche specifies that the Iowa were with the Omaha (Dhegihans?) when > > the latter made their luckless migration across the Mississippi after moving > > down the Ohio. > > Well, that would have been my next question... I imagine that when M-I > speakers entered Indiana and Illinois (early 1600's?) whoever they bumped > out probably spoke some kind of Siouan language. Bob Hall at the Field Museum in Chicago, a good archaeologist, has probably done the most in figuring out this piece of the puzzle, at least with respect to northeastern Indiana/Chicago area. I don't have access at the moment to a list of his publications on the topic, but the gist of it is that he believes the Winnebago were the resident native population before the Miami-Illinois folks moved westward. He went so far as to place the Winnebago at Chicago when Jean Nicollet dropped in for the first French visit in 1634. That is not correct. The Winnebago were no longer around the area at that time; they'd already moved further north and, in fact, appear to have moved around a lot in the mid-1600s, for obvious reasons. But, all in all, Hall's arguments are sound and convincing, and I believe that "most archaeologists" concur with his conclusions related to the location of the Winnebago in late prehistory. Michael From rankin at ku.edu Wed Apr 28 13:45:03 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:45:03 -0500 Subject: travel to Wayne Message-ID: Make that 1895. ;-) ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: travel to Wayne > > Possibilities for bus connections: Nil. There is basically no public > > transportation in Nebraska > > So, nothing's changed since 1985? > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 28 16:11:53 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 10:11:53 -0600 Subject: "Omaha Sacred Legend" and Oneota (Re: MVS 'eight') In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > Would this still be an objection if the early I-O speakers were > originally located further to the east themselves? The sacred Legend > recorded in Fletcher and La Flesche specifies that the Iowa were with > the Omaha (Dhegihans?) when the latter made their luckless migration > across the Mississippi after moving down the Ohio. I suspect that this legend developed specifically among the mid-1800s Omaha through the process of elaboration and weaving together of certain ingredients into a canonical pseudo-historical legend: - stories made up to explain such etymologies as UmaN'haN 'Omaha' = 'Upstream', Uga'xpa 'Quapaw' = 'Dowstream' - stories made up to explain certain folk etymologies such as 'Ohio' = Uha=i=u 'they followed it' or HuttaNga 'Winnebago' = 'big voice' taken as 'original voice' (not impossible, but less likely than 'big camp circle') - knowledge of the similarity of clan systems between Dhegiha groups - knowledge of the similarity of languages among the Dhegiha group[s, Ioway-Otoe-Missouria, and Winnebago (for some reason the Dakota, though recognized as similar in language, don't usually enter into this) - other ingredients like the Winnebago Moogas^uuc^ lengend The version of this story in Fletcher & LaFlesche is not the oldest version of this story, and some variation occurs between versions in terms of degrees of elaboration. Unfortunately, I've let various versions of the story go by me without making notes on when, where, and what! Etymological stories are a common human phenomenon, and various Siouan examples are familiar to everyone. The tendency to weave bits and pieces together into a combined story is also a centerpiece of human intellectual effort. The problem in this case comes from elevating the result into an oral chronicle of great age recording the early history of the Omaha and other Siouan groups instead of seeing it as a more recent model or hypothesis built to accomodate various simpler bits of information, some of them spurious. > Do we know who was living in the Indiana-Illinois area prior to the > spread of the Miami-Illinois southwest from Lake Erie and the Maumee > river region? I think we need to establish that these were not early > Chiwere speakers before we rule out John's suggestion on geographical > grounds. In general, the northern Illinois and northwestern Indiana areas are associated with a fairly recent influx of Oneota settlements in the early contact period (starting several centuries previous). The area was earlier occupied at least in part by Cahokia outlier communities and I think it is also considered that certain wares and sites are "Woodland." Like "Mississippian" (applied to Cahokia or Oneota) "Woodland" is a very generic term without much real potential ethnic significance compared with, say, a difference between two kinds of Oneota (or any two phases of anything). Oneota presumably represents Mississippi Valley Siouan but probably also some Algonquian, and the mappings between the archaeologists classifications of Oneota phases (local varieties) and modern groups are subject to a fair amount of debate. Oneota starts in northern Iowa, southern Minnesota and souther Wisconsin c. 1000 AD and spreads generally southward (and westward and eastward) up through the contact period, ultimately spreading into eastern South Dakota, eastern Nebraska, eastern Kansas, northern Missouri, a lot of Illinois (including the Cahokia site) and parts of Indiana. The Psinomani (intended for psiN-omaNniN by people who did't understand that some of the n's represented vowel nasalization) Culture now constructed to serve hold the various phases likely to represent Dakotan is a set of rather diverse "Woodland" like phases with some Oneota-like pottery wares. In theory Oneota pottery clay is tempered with burnt, crushed shell and the globular pots are decorated with certain families of patterns varying with the locality but often including an abstract pattern of chevrons, lines, and dots that is thought to represent a falcon's tail, in practice some of the pottery is tempered with other stuff more conveniently available in a given spot and a lot of it is undecorated. Oneota subsistence was a lot like historical Dhegiha or Miami-Illinois subsistence, involving seasonal round between villages and wandering and a mixture of horticulture and hunting and gathering. Oneota people liked to put their villages on the border between two ecological zones near soil easily farmed with digging sticks. They moved their villages fairly frequently and so didn't build up large middens except where sites were occupied repeatedly over time. Since different groups might occupy the same site together or successively it can be very difficult to sort out group variants of their rather similar ceramic wares. From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Wed Apr 28 14:53:44 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 15:53:44 +0100 Subject: travel to Wayne Message-ID: yes, at least you could always rely on Wells Fargo in the good old days.... >>> rankin at ku.edu 28/04/2004 14:45:03 >>> Make that 1895. ;-) ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: travel to Wayne > > Possibilities for bus connections: Nil. There is basically no public > > transportation in Nebraska > > So, nothing's changed since 1985? > > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Apr 28 18:45:47 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 11:45:47 -0700 Subject: 'eight' some more Message-ID: >> In terms of the linguistics, I think it's risky and unnecessary to link the >> Miami-Illinois forms to a hypothetical, unattested, archaic Iowa-Otoe form, >> */hpaRaaniN/~*/hpeRaaniN/, especially when the only *attested* I-O form is so >> different (/greeraa'briN/). > I think this is more of a methodological objection than a linguistic one, Linguistics and its methodology are one and the same thing. > Even if I more or less corectly hypothesized ?third(iary) on a basis of other > *t sets, you suspect I was treading on shifting sands one way or another. So > it seems to me that you reject the number of hypotheses necessary, rather than > the linguistic basis of the argument. I basically feel it's a severe violation of Occam's razor to claim that the M-I forms were borrowed from a hypothetical reconstructed form in one language when actual attested forms that match the M-I words better are known to exist in another language. >> With Tutelo we have a language that actually ATTESTS both the variants found >> in Miami-Illinois. > The Tutelo variants are alternate perceptions of one thing, not a perceived > alternation between two things. I know. But that doesn't really matter for our purposes. It was presumably just allophonic variation in Tutelo, but M-I speakers, who did NOT have allophonic variation in their own language between liquids and /n/, would not have perceived it that way. M-I speakers weren't borrowing the underlying Siouan form, they were borrowing the phonetic Siouan forms. > Nevertheless, the d vs. r problem is potentially more serious than the r vs. n > vs. l one. As I recall, Bob Rankin opted for Tutelo over Ofo partly because > he thought Tutelo l more like MI r or n than Ofo t (which might have been > rather d-like). Right, if an older Chiwere or Ofo form would have been pronounced more like *[pataare] or *[pataani], that probably would have come out in M-I as /pataali/~/pataani/. That would be another fact tilting the argument towards a Tutelo borrowing. >> it starts looking like the M-I speakers were in Indiana before they were in >> Illinois, and in Ohio before they were in Indiana. That puts them in a place >> where it's more likely they would have interacted with Tutelo speakers than >> with I-O speakers, and WAY more likely than them interacting with Michigamea >> speakers. The M-I speakers' presence in the Michigamea area was probably very >> recent. > But why do we need to assume that the Siouan 'eight' forms go as far back in > MI as we can push them? We don't have any evidence of them, perforce, before > contact. Could they have been borrowed after MI moved westward to the > vicinity of the Mississippi? Well, that would leave open the question of why the Siouan loan is attested through *all* known M-I dialects, including Miami. That is, if the word for 'eight' was borrowed by the Illinois from Chiwere speakers around the Mississippi River, why do Indiana Miami and Wea dialects have the word as well? The evidence, both linguistic and historical, seems to indicate that the Illinois/Miami political split probably happened quite soon after the movement of M-I speakers westward into Indiana (early 1600's, I guess), and that the two groups never reconciled, even after the Iroquois wars. So to me, it's more awkward to explain why a word borrowed by the Illinois along the Mississippi River would drift back east to the Miamis in northern Indiana, when the latter had no political affiliation with the Illinois. I think it's easier to assume the borrowing happened a century before that, before the modern dialect/tribal divisions even existed. Tho there must have been some M-I subdialects even then, since two different pronunciations of the Siouan form were preserved. >> Of course, this whole argument could be settled if other clear Tutelo loans >> into Miami-Illinois could be found, other than just 'eight'. After a fair >> deal of looking, I've never been able to find any. It seems to be the only >> word the M-I's borrowed from Tutelo, unless you say that the oddly deformed >> M-I word for 'six', /kaakaathswi/, is perhaps *influenced* by Tutelo >> /aka'aspee/. But I'm not really committed to that idea. > Tutelo /aka'aspee/ is definitely a clear Southeastern form. How so? Is /aka'aspee/ itself a loan from somewhere? A quick look at my Chickasaw and Creek dictionaries didn't reveal anything similar. > How does the MI 'six' form differ from other Algonquian forms? I wonder > bacause I'd be tempted to call the Southeastern 'six' forms '"oddly deformed," > too! The Miami-Illinois form for 'six', /kaakaat(i)hswi/, isn't the form the word would be expected to have at all, given sister-language cognates like Ojibwe /ningodwaaswi/, Potawatomi /ngodwatso/, Shawnee /nekotwah0wi/, and Fox /(ne)kotwaa$ika/ (from a probable PA form */nekwetwa:$i(ka)/). Given the sister language forms, the M-I form might be expected to be something like **/ninkotaat(i)hswi/. 'Influence' from Tutelo /aka'aspee/ isn't a terribly satisfying explanation, but I'm open to any other influences I might have missed. Dave From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 28 23:53:47 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:53:47 -0600 Subject: 'eight' some more In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, David Costa wrote: > > I think this is more of a methodological objection than a linguistic one, > > Linguistics and its methodology are one and the same thing. This is kind of a high level issue in methodology, however. > I basically feel it's a severe violation of Occam's razor to claim that the > M-I forms were borrowed from a hypothetical reconstructed form in one > language when actual attested forms that match the M-I words better are > known to exist in another language. It's really only one form in Tutelo (or whatever). The multiplicy of forms is in the ears of the beholder and in MI. > > The Tutelo variants are alternate perceptions of one thing, not a perceived > > alternation between two things. > > I know. But that doesn't really matter for our purposes. It was presumably > just allophonic variation in Tutelo, but M-I speakers, who did NOT have > allophonic variation in their own language between liquids and /n/, would > not have perceived it that way. M-I speakers weren't borrowing the > underlying Siouan form, they were borrowing the phonetic Siouan forms. Not allophonic. Random subsignificant, unconditioned variation in production or free variation in non-native perception of "identical" productions. Allophonic would be li (i oral) vs. niN (in nasal), at least in principle. Here we have to assume that the speaker was trying to say niN in every case, while the hearer(s) heard sometimes li, sometimes ni, or even thought from a single repetition that it might have been either li or ni. Granted, I wasn't there and the details of Tutelo phonology will always have an element of uncertainty about them. > > Nevertheless, the d vs. r problem is potentially more serious than the r vs. n > > vs. l one. As I recall, Bob Rankin opted for Tutelo over Ofo partly because > > he thought Tutelo l more like MI r or n than Ofo t (which might have been > > rather d-like). > > Right, if an older Chiwere or Ofo form would have been pronounced more like > *[pataare] or *[pataani], that probably would have come out in M-I as > /pataali/~/pataani/. That would be another fact tilting the argument towards > a Tutelo borrowing. What about phadaaniN? > > But why do we need to assume that the Siouan 'eight' forms go as far back in > > MI as we can push them? We don't have any evidence of them, perforce, before > > contact. Could they have been borrowed after MI moved westward to the > > vicinity of the Mississippi? > > Well, that would leave open the question of why the Siouan loan is attested > through *all* known M-I dialects, including Miami. That is, if the word for > 'eight' was borrowed by the Illinois from Chiwere speakers around the > Mississippi River, why do Indiana Miami and Wea dialects have the word as > well? What is the date of the Indiana Miami and Wea? My understanding is that at present MI communities in Oklahoma crosscut the Miami vs. Illinois distinction. In other words, only the Indiana Miami and Wea communities would be Miami without Illinois population infusions? However, ... in her atlas suggests ... > > Tutelo /aka'aspee/ is definitely a clear Southeastern form. > > How so? Is /aka'aspee/ itself a loan from somewhere? A quick look at my > Chickasaw and Creek dictionaries didn't reveal anything similar. Sorry, the term Southeastern is ambiguous. I meant Southeastern Siouan, or Tutelo plus Biloxi-Ofo. Tu akaa'spee, Bi akaxpe, Of akape. => *akaas^pe. I think Bob has pointed out that MVS *s^aakpe and SES *(a)kaas^pe look like metatheses of each other. > The Miami-Illinois form for 'six', /kaakaat(i)hswi/, isn't the form the word > would be expected to have at all, given sister-language cognates like Ojibwe > /ningodwaaswi/, Potawatomi /ngodwatso/, Shawnee /nekotwah0wi/, and Fox > /(ne)kotwaa$ika/ (from a probable PA form */nekwetwa:$i(ka)/). Given the > sister language forms, the M-I form might be expected to be something like > **/ninkotaat(i)hswi/. 'Influence' from Tutelo /aka'aspee/ isn't a terribly > satisfying explanation, but I'm open to any other influences I might have > missed. In short, given that Spe vs. Swe is not a contast in Siouan, kaakaat(i)hswi is fairlyy similar to akaaspee. The leading k is missing. JEK From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Apr 29 13:10:42 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 08:10:42 -0500 Subject: 'eight' some more In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: Dave Costa: > > Well, that would leave open the question of why the Siouan loan is attested > > through *all* known M-I dialects, including Miami. That is, if the word for > > 'eight' was borrowed by the Illinois from Chiwere speakers around the > > Mississippi River, why do Indiana Miami and Wea dialects have the word as > > well? > John Koontz: > What is the date of the Indiana Miami and Wea? My understanding is that > at present MI communities in Oklahoma crosscut the Miami vs. Illinois > distinction. In other words, only the Indiana Miami and Wea communities > would be Miami without Illinois population infusions? However, ... in her > atlas suggests ... > The earliest French accounts concerning the Miami and Illinois, which appear after the great Central Algonquian diaspora of the mid-1600s that sent Miami-Illinois-speaking bands from a presumed homeland in the western Lake Erie watershed west to the Mississippi and northwest to what we call today Wisconsin, refer to all the bands as "Illinois", which is what the Ojibwe called them, and the French got the name from the Ojibwe. The division into "Miami" and "Illinois," as Dave notes, took place between the beginning of the diaspora ca. 1640 and the arrival of La Salle in the West, winter of 1679-80. All roads of research lead to the notion that the Miami became chummy with the Iroquois and that relationship, even though it was in short order betrayed by the Iroquois, drove a wedge between two "camps" of Miami-Illinois speakers that remained and made the relationship irreconcilable during the early and middle historical periods. Now, what is important to realize is that this wedge was primarily between the bands that in time "usurped" the original "Illinois" designation as applied by the Ojibwe--the Peoria, the Kaskaskia, the Tamaroa, and other related groups (in other words, the latter group became known as the "Illinois" even though that moniker had originally applied to *all* the Miami-Illinois speaking folks) and the Miami proper, and by "Miami proper" I am referring to the bands that lived during the diaspora in Wisconsin, subsequently on the St. Joseph River of Lake Michigan in the very late 1600s and very early 1700s, and then in the vicinity of the headwaters of the Maumee throughout the 1700s. Other bands that are typically referred to as "Miami," specifically the Wea and Piankashaw were not a part of this "Miami/Illinois" rift, or better put, sometimes they were and sometimes they weren't. But the Wea in particular maintained fairly good relations with the so-called "Illinois" throughout the 1700s, at a time when the Miami and the Illinois were constantly at each others' throats. Once the Kentuckians and Virginians took control of what is now Indiana and Illinois, once individual bands of M-I speakers were sent across the Mississippi, the Peoria and the Piankashaw fused into a tribal organization. Other bands of M-I speakers fused to form the Miami of Oklahoma. From goodtracks at GBRonline.com Thu Apr 1 02:58:07 2004 From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 20:58:07 -0600 Subject: St. Louis - Pain Court; Ndeck and Other ppahV forms. Message-ID: For what it is worth, I decided to take the discussion to a friend from Southern France who has done some cultural studies and journeys to the various tribal communities of the Southern and Northern Plains in the last few years. This is what he has to say: ----- Original Message ----- From: Lionel Lacaze To: Jimm GoodTracks Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 12:14 PM Subject: Re: Fw: St. Louis? Ho Jimm ! This sounds very interesting ! Me too I have doubts concerning the "short of bread" meaning of "Pain Court". It would rather mean the place where they make small breads , or the place where their bread is "short" because of lack of baking powder (I don't have the English for "levure" which is what you put in bread to make it come big as it is goes through oven). Altough I had already heard about St Louis being called red head town in reference to William Clark hair, "Pain Court" is new to me. (As well as Mis?re ?) ("Mis?re" is great poverty, I don't think the English "Misery" stands for great poverty ?). Anyway to the French in Canada or southern Louisiana would sure have been the western frontier in the 1600's and 1700's and life for white people at these places was sure difficult and "mis?rable" ("very poor", "wandering life"). Lionell: > Here's a discussion of a French name applied to Saint Louis, Missouri, which > was founded by the French in about 1775. See if you get anything out of it. > Jimm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Koontz John E" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 3:56 PM > Subject: Re: St. Louis - Pain Court > > > On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, [windows-1252] "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: > > > Paroisse de l?Immacul?e Conception de Pain Court > > > > C?est la mis?re extr?me des anc?tres qui a donn? le jour au nom de Pain > > Court. Les missionnaires disaient : ? Je m?en vais dans la mission du > > pain court ?, ou tout simplement : ? Je m?en vais ? Pain Court. ? Et le > > nom prit racine pour toujours... << > > > > It seems that the French speaking author doesn't have problems to quote > > the term _pain court_ in the sense of smth like "short of bread" > > (although it doesn't look like a real grammatical French rendering, > > then). > > Comments on St. Louis as "Pain court" generally pair this with a comment > on Ste. Genevieve as "Misere," suggesting a parallel. It would be > interesting to know what the first source is that suggests this. I agree > that taking something like "a short loaf" as symbolic of want or perhaps > just meagerness seems more consistent with French syntax than other > possibilities. > > In any event, any explanation of the name as applied to St. Louis has to > account for its use in three North American placenames dating to French > settlements in the area, and probably also to its use in two street names > in France. It seems clear that some metaphorical meaning might be > involved. > > It is also possible that the name might reflect the French nickname or dit > name of an early resident, though it seems more likely that Paincort as a > nickname reflects the same metaphor as the placenames than that the > placenames derive from the nickname. This seems likely because of the > number of instances of Paincourt as a placename and the tendency to > explain it in ways that imply shortages of food rather than as a nickname. > > Finally, if the sense is taken simply as short bread without too much > emphasis on what that might mean, it could represent a none-too-relevant > play on an unrelated phrase in another language with a similar sound. > This seems less likely because the name does reappear as a placename, and > because Native American versions of St. Louis seem to be derived from the > French and not vice versa. If we include Allan Taylor's Gros Ventre case, > the Native American versions include not just borrowings of the sound > sequence by calques of the sense. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Apr 2 12:49:11 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 07:49:11 -0500 Subject: Pain Court = Pin(s) Court(s) (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 06:17:31 -0500 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu To: sioan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Pain Court = Pin(s) Court(s) Picard seems to agree with my earlier suggestion to the Siouanist discussion group that the place name is a miswritten Pin(s) Court(s) (the singular and the plural forms are pronounced the same). ----- Forwarded message from MARC PICARD ----- Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 22:04:11 -0500 From: MARC PICARD Reply-To: American Name Society Subject: Re: Place names To: ANS-L at LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Well, I think we can quickly eliminate the possibility that shortbread was involved in the process :-) I think this is simply a typo or spelling mistake for Pin Court. For example, there's a municipality near Montreal by the name of Pincourt which, according to Rayburn's Dictionary of Canadian Place Names, takes its name from 'the short pines (pins courts) in nearby woods'. ----- End forwarded message ----- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: unnamed Type: text/enriched Size: 770 bytes Desc: URL: From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Apr 2 16:22:35 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 11:22:35 -0500 Subject: Tired of Pain Court yet? Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 11:10:57 -0500 From: MARC PICARD Reply-To: American Name Society To: ANS-L at LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: Re: Place names On Vendredi, avril 2, 2004, at 06:11 am, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Yes, the pin court or pins courts was the suggestion that i made > to the Siouan discussion list. No one seemed to like it, but it was the > only thing that made sense. I'll restate that position to that list. Marc Picard dixit: Actually, both of us may have been a little hasty in our conclusion. What I've found is that there's a place in Ontario called Pain Court (formerly Paincourt) and that, lo and behold, there are six places in France by the name of Paincourt or Le Paincourt (as you can check on the IGN website). So what we have here may simply be a case of the transposition of a French placename. Etymologically, Paincourt has almost surely nothing to do with 'bread' and 'short'. The -court part is a very common placename ending from Old French cort 'farm'. The pain- part is probably a person's name if one is to judge by the frequency of such structures as found in Dauzat and Rostaing's Dictionnaire ?tymologique des noms de lieux en France (which, unfortunately, doesn't include hamlets like Paincourt). Marc Picard -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1166 bytes Desc: URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Apr 2 23:42:49 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 17:42:49 -0600 Subject: Tired of Pain Court yet? Message-ID: > On Vendredi, avril 2, 2004, at 06:11 am, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > >> Yes, the pin court or pins courts was the suggestion that i made >> to the Siouan discussion list. No one seemed to like it, but it was the >> only thing that made sense. I'll restate that position to that list. Michael-- As the one who started the thread, I'd like to apologize for not having commented on your suggestion, which certainly is very sensible. It wasn't that I didn't like it; it's just that there were so many reasonable possibilities that were raised then without anything being a clincher that I didn't know which way to go. Some thoughts: 1. How is the St. Louis area fixed for pines? There are lots of pines in Canada, and there is a famous band of pine forest across some of the old Southern states parallel with the Gulf, but I usually think of the Missouri/Illinois area to be a deciduous, oak-hickory region. 2. Would the French have made and perpetuated such an error? They are certainly fluent in their own language, and quite literate. If it was originally Pins Courts rather than Pain Court, wouldn't someone at least have left record complaining of the distortion? After all, "Short Pines" really does make a lot more sense than "Short Bread", so I would expect a shift in interpretation to go in the other direction if anything. 3. What about the other places named Pain Court in France and Canada? Isn't it likely that the name was simply imported by a homesick French or Canadian? In that case, the name would probably have nothing to do with St. Louis, regardless of its original etymology. Locally, the name would be meaningless. 4. What about the punning humor mentioned for the voyageurs? Perhaps the original name was from a local Indian language, and the French humorously recast its sound sequence into their own language as Pain Court. In this case, Pain Court might have been parsed whole, in reference to some other Pain Court location, or it could have been parsed to its parts to mean "short bread". In the latter case, the pun might have been purely fanciful, or it could have meant something to them. These people were presumably very used to dealing with direct translations from Indian languages, which were likely ungrammatical in French. Given that they had 'a court de pain' to mean 'short of bread', is it really too much of a stretch to interpret 'pain court' to mean the same thing if cast as a translation from "Indian"? I think I could take it that way in English either as "short bread" or as "bread short" if I understood it as a joke on the twisted syntax of a foreign language. In this case, it would fit in with the tradition of it meaning "short of bread", without having to get there through straight-faced French grammar. In any case, thanks for your suggestion and other comments! They have been very enlightening. Best, Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Apr 3 07:39:57 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 00:39:57 -0700 Subject: Tired of Pain Court yet? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Yes, the pin court or pins courts was the suggestion that i made > to the Siouan discussion list. No one seemed to like it, but it was the > only thing that made sense. I'll restate that position to that list. Well, I thought it was quite interesting lexically, though I gather from previous comments that pain and pin are not always homophonous in Canadian French and that there are, as Michael had observed, and I had also discovered, precedents for Paincourt as a placename. I am not clear whether there are any precedents for Pin Court. It does seem clear that pain court does not mean 'short(age) of bread' per se, but rather 'short loaf' in one dimension or another - length or height. Apparently it could also mean 'shortbread' in the more technical sense. I am not at all convinced that in any of these forms it is not perceived as a metaphor for poverty or hard or primitive living. Suggestions along these lines appear in both English and French. The question has been raised as to whether there is any evidence of pains courts in the neighboorhood of St. Louis. By chance I noticed a while ago a description of the trees of St. Louis in the colonial period. Houck's The Spanish Regime in Missouri, Vol. 1, p 49, contains a document dealing with the "Delivery of the Fort of El Principe de Asturias [near St. Louis], ..." March 19, 1769, whicbindicates that "The woods of which the stockade is composed are liar, ash, and yncomis." Footnotes explain liar as a variant of French liard 'poplar', here referring to cottonwood, and indicate that yncomis may be ynconis, 'the name of a wood not in the dictionaries'. Personally, I suspect that yncomis is a misreading and/or mangling of inconnus 'unknown(s)'. Liar(d) wood appears to figure prominently in the construction of the fort. There are references to pines and cedars on the Upper Missouri. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Apr 3 11:46:25 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 06:46:25 -0500 Subject: Tired of Pain Court yet? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Fri, 2 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > Yes, the pin court or pins courts was the suggestion that i made > > to the Siouan discussion list. No one seemed to like it, but it was the > > only thing that made sense. I'll restate that position to that list. > > Well, I thought it was quite interesting lexically, though I gather from > previous comments that pain and pin are not always homophonous in Canadian > French and that there are, as Michael had observed, No, no. I've been misrepresented!! Where's my lawyer?! No, "pain" and "pin" ARE homophonous in Canadian French and French in general. In Canada speakers will either say [pe~] (tilde over the e) for both of them, or [pI~] for both of them. Alles klar? and I had also > discovered, precedents for Paincourt as a placename. I am not clear > whether there are any precedents for Pin Court. > There was a note from Marc Picard forwarded to the Siouan list yesterday that showed a place name near Montreal for Pin(s) Court(s). > It does seem clear that pain court does not mean 'short(age) of bread' per > se, but rather 'short loaf' in one dimension or another - length or > height. Apparently it could also mean 'shortbread' in the more technical > sense. I am not at all convinced that in any of these forms it is not > perceived as a metaphor for poverty or hard or primitive living. > Suggestions along these lines appear in both English and French. > Right. If we are talking about "short bread," then the term was either a toponym brought from Quebec/Ontario and transplanted in St. Louis or a nickname for some yahoo. Both of these are big IF's. > The question has been raised as to whether there is any evidence of pains > courts in the neighboorhood of St. Louis. > > By chance I noticed a while ago a description of the trees of St. Louis in > the colonial period. Houck's The Spanish Regime in Missouri, Vol. 1, p > 49, contains a document dealing with the "Delivery of the Fort of El > Principe de Asturias [near St. Louis], ..." March 19, 1769, whicbindicates > that "The woods of which the stockade is composed are liar, ash, and > yncomis." Footnotes explain liar as a variant of French liard 'poplar', > here referring to cottonwood, and indicate that yncomis may be ynconis, > 'the name of a wood not in the dictionaries'. Personally, I suspect that > yncomis is a misreading and/or mangling of inconnus 'unknown(s)'. > Liar(d) wood appears to figure prominently in the construction of the > fort. > > There are references to pines and cedars on the Upper Missouri. > > > There are six species of "evergreens" native to Indiana and I suspect that some of those are native to Missouri. Michael From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Apr 3 12:11:44 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 07:11:44 -0500 Subject: Tired of Pain Court yet? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > > > > > On Vendredi, avril 2, 2004, at 06:11 am, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > > >> Yes, the pin court or pins courts was the suggestion that i made > >> to the Siouan discussion list. No one seemed to like it, but it was the > >> only thing that made sense. I'll restate that position to that list. > > Michael-- As the one who started the thread, I'd like to > apologize for not having commented on your suggestion, > which certainly is very sensible. Oh. No problem at all, Rory. None. It wasn't that I > didn't like it; it's just that there were so many > reasonable possibilities that were raised then without > anything being a clincher that I didn't know which way > to go. "Pain Court" is among the best in onomastic doozies. It's right up there. Some thoughts: > > 1. How is the St. Louis area fixed for pines? There > are lots of pines in Canada, and there is a famous > band of pine forest across some of the old Southern > states parallel with the Gulf, but I usually think > of the Missouri/Illinois area to be a deciduous, > oak-hickory region. As I mentioned a few minutes ago, there are several native "evergreen" species in Indiana. What I would imagine for St. Louis is that either the area had/has a relict white pine (Pinus albus) or a relict eastern hemlock (Tsuga something-or-other)--or both, as they often coexist--from the last continental glaciation. Eastern cedar (Juniperus virginiana) is very common in these parts, although, from my experience inside the French primary sources, the coureurs de bois, the missionaries, etc. call this tree "cedre" and not "pin". So, sure, there is a good possibility that some sort of "pine" grew along the Mississippi at St. Louis. Definitely. These relict species of "evergreens" are often seen on bluffs overlooking river bottoms. > > 2. Would the French have made and perpetuated such an > error? Sure. They are certainly fluent in their own > language, and quite literate. Literacy was hit and miss in the 18th century among the French in the west. One of the best interpreters to the Miami didn't know how read or write. If it was originally > Pins Courts rather than Pain Court, wouldn't someone > at least have left record complaining of the distortion? > Not necessarily. Once place names get established, they are often invincible. Not wanting to open up another can of worms, but let me add that the French called Miami villages at the headwaters of the Maumee "Kiskakon" (which is a name for an Ottawa band). The Ottawa never lived there and the name was used before the Ottawa were even established lower down the Maumee near present-day Toledo. Plus, the Ottawa and the Miami were at each others' throats throughout most of the French regime. So, here we are with "Kiskakon" as the French name for the Miami villages. What a mess! I have better examples of illogical place names getting fixed in stone, but at the moment I can't recall them. They'll come, probably right after I log off. After all, "Short Pines" really does make a lot more > sense than "Short Bread", so I would expect a shift > in interpretation to go in the other direction if > anything. > > 3. What about the other places named Pain Court in France > and Canada? Isn't it likely that the name was simply > imported by a homesick French or Canadian? If the thing was actually "Pain Court," yep, that's probably what happened, or else it was an nickname for some fella. In that > case, the name would probably have nothing to do with > St. Louis, regardless of its original etymology. > Locally, the name would be meaningless. > > 4. What about the punning humor mentioned for the > voyageurs? Perhaps the original name was from > a local Indian language, and the French humorously > recast its sound sequence into their own language > as Pain Court. That's possible. This is apparently what happen (another can of worms!) with "Calumet River"...except, and this is interesting...there is no evidence the French ever used "calumet" as the name for that stream. It looks like early English speakers took a native term and turned into to "Calumet". In this case, Pain Court might have > been parsed whole, in reference to some other Pain > Court location, or it could have been parsed to its > parts to mean "short bread". In the latter case, > the pun might have been purely fanciful, or it > could have meant something to them. These people > were presumably very used to dealing with direct > translations from Indian languages, which were > likely ungrammatical in French. Given that they > had 'a court de pain' to mean 'short of bread', > is it really too much of a stretch to interpret > 'pain court' to mean the same thing if cast as > a translation from "Indian"? It's very possible. Too bad we can't rewind history....but then again... I think I could > take it that way in English either as "short > bread" or as "bread short" if I understood it > as a joke on the twisted syntax of a foreign > language. In this case, it would fit in with > the tradition of it meaning "short of bread", > without having to get there through straight-faced > French grammar. Well, I don't know. I couldn't commit to *that* very readily. > > In any case, thanks for your suggestion and other > comments! They have been very enlightening. And murky and muddy, to boot! Michael > > Best, > Rory > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sat Apr 3 15:42:12 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 09:42:12 -0600 Subject: Tired of Pain Court yet? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Michael Mccafferty wrote: > As I mentioned a few minutes ago, there are several native "evergreen" > species in Indiana. What I would imagine for St. Louis is that either the > area had/has a relict white pine (Pinus albus) or a relict eastern hemlock > (Tsuga something-or-other) No eastern hemlock (Tsuga canadensis) or eastern white pine (Pinus strobus) in Missouri. There is some shortleaf pine (P. echinata)--yeah, I know, it has the word "short" in it!--in the the SE half of the state, but not in the St. Louis vicinity (http://plants.usda.gov/). P. echinata: Noms vernaculaires: pin jaune ; pin doux ; short leaf yellow pine ; southern yellow pine ; pin ? feuilles courtes (http://membres.lycos.fr/helardot/page_pins/pinus_echinata.htm) Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Apr 3 20:12:52 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 13:12:52 -0700 Subject: Tired of Pain Court yet? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > No, no. I've been misrepresented!! Where's my lawyer?! Vacationing in St. Louis. > No, "pain" and "pin" ARE homophonous in Canadian French and French > in general. In Canada speakers will either say [pe~] (tilde > over the e) for both of them, or [pI~] for both of them. OK, I had missed that when the pain went lower, the pin also shifted. > There was a note from Marc Picard forwarded to the Siouan list yesterday > that showed a place name near Montreal for Pin(s) Court(s). I am sorry. I took his second post as implying that he had misremembered Pain Court as Pin Court and was now advocating Paincourt, albeit believing that -court referred to a farm. > > The question has been raised as to whether there is any evidence of pains > > courts in the neighboorhood of St. Louis. Oops - typo on my part for pins courts. > There are six species of "evergreens" native to Indiana and I suspect that > some of those are native to Missouri. I couldn't relocate it last night, but at least one comment on forts in Houck or Nasatir mentions a tower built of cedar. It did occur to me after I signed off that what I needed was an ecological survey of St. Louis and that for this it would suffice to have an typical archaeological investigation of the American Bottom (in the midst of which, I note without further comment, St. Louis may be found). Fortunately, I happen have a copy of American Bottom Archaeology, ed. by Chas. J Bareis and Jas. W. Porter, U. of Ill. Press, 1984. The essay on 'The Environmental Setting' by White, Johannessen, Cross and Kelly does list the vegetation, classified according to 9 zones. The investigation here is specifically concerned with the Illinois shore, but I imagine it covers the Missouri shore fairly well, too. Not to keep you in suspense, no evergreens are mentioned, and the lowlands zones feature ash (including green ash), black walnut, boxelder, cottonwood, elm, hackberry, hickory, honey locust, mulberry, oak (including pin oak), pecan, persimmon, silver maple, sycamore, and willow (including black willow). The slopes and upland zones feature ash, basswood, black walnut, butternut, cherry, dogwood, elder, elm, hackberry, hazel, hickory, mulberry, oak, pawpaw, persimmon, and sugar maple. The area is characterized by a climax forest of black oak, white oak, and hickory. There are, however, very few places, if any, in North America, where evergreens do not occur, even in hardwood forests, so that this account does not permit us to conclude that there was not a clump of shortish pines near the future site of St. Louis back when it was founded. Knowing the early settlers, or at least their descendents, these were promptly cut down to build either towers of forts, or, perhaps, outhouses. In spite of this possibility, it does not appear that pines or other evergreens are prominent components of the local vegetation. There don't seem to have been stands of them everywhere, unlike Colorado, where our state motto is "Pins courts toujours!" Evergreen and Conifer, for example, might both well have been named Pinscourts. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Apr 3 20:26:29 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 13:26:29 -0700 Subject: Cedar (Re: Tired of Pain Court yet?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Eastern cedar (Juniperus virginiana) is very common in these parts, > although, from my experience inside the French primary sources, the > coureurs de bois, the missionaries, etc. call this tree "cedre" and not > "pin". For what it's worth, the principle, maybe only, Omaha-Ponca term for evergreen is ma(a)'si. Fletcher & LaFlesche gloss it as 'red cedar'. This reflects Proto-Mississippi Valley *Wa(a)'zi (with "funny w"). From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Sat Apr 3 21:21:41 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 15:21:41 -0600 Subject: Pain Court => St. Louis? Message-ID: Alright, one more question on this subject: Does anyone have a sense of when the site was still Pain Court, and when the name shifted to St. Louis? Was this shift at the time of St. Louis' foundation in 1764, or was it not until later? Thanks for all the input! Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Apr 3 21:29:16 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 14:29:16 -0700 Subject: Sarpy Message-ID: One minor mystery in the Omaha and Ponca texts is that the trader Sarpy is referred to as Bac^c^i'. Dorsey says that this is Peter G. Sarpy, and he seems to have been a trader for whom Joseph La Flesche worked when he was a young man. The Sarpy family were prominent traders on the lower Missouri in the early days. The Houck and Nasatir collections mention Bernal (Beral) Sarpy, Bernardo Sarpy (same as last?), De l'Or Sarpy, Gregoire (Gregorio) Sarpy, Jean Baptiste (Juan Bautista) Sarpy, and Lille Sarpy. It has occured to me that Bac^c^i might be a version of Baptiste. (Which Dorsey spells Battiste in other French names, e.g., Battiste Deroin/Dorion.) Jean Baptiste Sarpy was the older brother of Gregoire Sarpy, who I suppose might even be Pierre Gregoire Sarpy. Because Baptiste has an Omaha form Badi'ze (see below), we'd have to assume that Bac^c^i' has a different history, perhaps involving Ioway-Otoe, where t regularly becomes c^ before i, though I think the phonology of Canadian French is such that one needn't appeal to Ioway-Otoe to have t materialize as c^. It would have to be assumed that the name Bac^c^i' became fixed to members of the family Sarpy, and carried across regardless of their actual given name. Other French names I have noticed in the Dorsey texts are: Badi'ze (Battiste) Budhi't[t]e (glossed Charles Pepin, but maybe Hippolyte?) Dhawi'ini, Dhawi'na (David) (Dorsey is also given variously as Da'si [rarely] and Dha'si [commonly]) HaNdhi' (Henry, Henri) J^o' (Joe, Joseph) Dhusi' (Lucy, Lucie) Mis^e'dha (Michel) Sasu' (Frank, Francis, Francois) (also given as just Frank) S^ani' (Charlie, Charles) Zuze'tte (Susette) This may not be the complete list, because it has been compiled entirely by chance encounter. In addition, given the importance of the trading connection with Omaha and Ponca history and the prominence of metis families in all lower Missouri Sioan groups, a fairly full colleftion of French names in Colonial use must have been available and in circulation. In particular, the town Rosalie is called Dhuza'dhi in Omaha. In fact, I was told that Rosalie was an English version of the Omaha name Dhuza'dhi, which clearly implies that Dhuza'dhi is completely naturalized. Of course, the town is named for Rosalie (LaFlesche) Farley, and as her Omaha name was probably Dhuza'dhi, then Rosalie really is just an English version of her Omaha name. I have also personally heard Me'dhi (Mary, Marie) in current use. The form Sasu' makes you wonder about the origin of the surname Sanssouci, although I think the latter is usually assumed to be a dit name. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Apr 3 21:54:34 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 14:54:34 -0700 Subject: Pain Court => St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > Does anyone have a sense of when the site was still > Pain Court, and when the name shifted to St. Louis? > Was this shift at the time of St. Louis' foundation > in 1764, or was it not until later? As far as I can tell the site was unnamed until the town was founded as St. Louis. The nickname followed on the heels of the formal name. Houck, p. 67, quotes in a letter of October 31, 1769, from Pedro Piernas, lieut. commanding in St. Louis, to Alexander O'Reilly, captain general and governor of Louisiana, the lines: "I set out for Misera [= St. Genevieve or Santa Genoveva] on the 6th of December. ... and could not ... reach Misera until the 29th [of January] ... on the 30th [of February] I reached Paincour, called San Luis, the second French settlment, which is 20 leagues from the first." JEK From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Apr 3 22:18:19 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 17:18:19 -0500 Subject: Sarpy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > One minor mystery in the Omaha and Ponca texts is that the trader Sarpy is > referred to as Bac^c^i'. Dorsey says that this is Peter G. Sarpy, and he > seems to have been a trader for whom Joseph La Flesche worked when he was > a young man. The Sarpy family were prominent traders on the lower > Missouri in the early days. The Houck and Nasatir collections mention > Bernal (Beral) Sarpy, Bernardo Sarpy (same as last?), De l'Or Sarpy, > Gregoire (Gregorio) Sarpy, Jean Baptiste (Juan Bautista) Sarpy, and Lille > Sarpy. > > It has occured to me that Bac^c^i might be a version of Baptiste. (Which > Dorsey spells Battiste in other French names, e.g., Battiste > Deroin/Dorion.) Jean Baptiste Sarpy was the older brother of Gregoire > Sarpy, who I suppose might even be Pierre Gregoire Sarpy. "Batticy" is the French nickname for "Baptiste". This comes about since the p is not pronounced, i.e., "Baptiste" is [batis]. > > Because Baptiste has an Omaha form Badi'ze (see below), we'd have to > assume that Bac^c^i' has a different history, perhaps involving > Ioway-Otoe, where t regularly becomes c^ before i, though I think the > phonology of Canadian French is such that one needn't appeal to Ioway-Otoe > to have t materialize as c^. > > It would have to be assumed that the name Bac^c^i' became fixed to members > of the family Sarpy, and carried across regardless of their actual given > name. > > Other French names I have noticed in the Dorsey texts are: > > Badi'ze (Battiste) > Budhi't[t]e (glossed Charles Pepin, but maybe Hippolyte?) > Dhawi'ini, Dhawi'na (David) > (Dorsey is also given variously as Da'si [rarely] and Dha'si [commonly]) > HaNdhi' (Henry, Henri) > J^o' (Joe, Joseph) > Dhusi' (Lucy, Lucie) > Mis^e'dha (Michel) > Sasu' (Frank, Francis, Francois) (also given as just Frank) > S^ani' (Charlie, Charles) > Zuze'tte (Susette) > Interesting stuff. > This may not be the complete list, because it has been compiled entirely > by chance encounter. In addition, given the importance of the trading > connection with Omaha and Ponca history and the prominence of metis > families in all lower Missouri Sioan groups, a fairly full colleftion of > French names in Colonial use must have been available and in circulation. > > In particular, the town Rosalie is called Dhuza'dhi in Omaha. In fact, I > was told that Rosalie was an English version of the Omaha name Dhuza'dhi, > which clearly implies that Dhuza'dhi is completely naturalized. Of > course, the town is named for Rosalie (LaFlesche) Farley, and as her Omaha > name was probably Dhuza'dhi, then Rosalie really is just an English > version of her Omaha name. > > I have also personally heard Me'dhi (Mary, Marie) in current use. > > The form Sasu' makes you wonder about the origin of the surname Sanssouci, > although I think the latter is usually assumed to be a dit name. > > John E. Koontz > http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Apr 3 22:19:10 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 17:19:10 -0500 Subject: Pain Court => St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does this imply that St. Louis is originally a Spanish designation for the place? That would be interesting. Michael On Sat, 3 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Sat, 3 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > Does anyone have a sense of when the site was still > > Pain Court, and when the name shifted to St. Louis? > > Was this shift at the time of St. Louis' foundation > > in 1764, or was it not until later? > > As far as I can tell the site was unnamed until the town was founded as > St. Louis. The nickname followed on the heels of the formal name. > > Houck, p. 67, quotes in a letter of October 31, 1769, from Pedro Piernas, > lieut. commanding in St. Louis, to Alexander O'Reilly, captain general > and governor of Louisiana, the lines: "I set out for Misera [= St. > Genevieve or Santa Genoveva] on the 6th of December. ... and could not > ... reach Misera until the 29th [of January] ... on the 30th [of February] > I reached Paincour, called San Luis, the second French settlment, which is > 20 leagues from the first." > > JEK > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Apr 3 22:27:40 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 17:27:40 -0500 Subject: Sarpy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > > On Sat, 3 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > > > One minor mystery in the Omaha and Ponca texts is that the trader Sarpy is > > referred to as Bac^c^i'. Dorsey says that this is Peter G. Sarpy, and he > > seems to have been a trader for whom Joseph La Flesche worked when he was > > a young man. The Sarpy family were prominent traders on the lower > > Missouri in the early days. The Houck and Nasatir collections mention > > Bernal (Beral) Sarpy, Bernardo Sarpy (same as last?), De l'Or Sarpy, > > Gregoire (Gregorio) Sarpy, Jean Baptiste (Juan Bautista) Sarpy, and Lille > > Sarpy. > > > > It has occured to me that Bac^c^i might be a version of Baptiste. (Which > > Dorsey spells Battiste in other French names, e.g., Battiste > > Deroin/Dorion.) Jean Baptiste Sarpy was the older brother of Gregoire > > Sarpy, who I suppose might even be Pierre Gregoire Sarpy. > > "Batticy" is the French nickname for "Baptiste". This comes about since > the p is not pronounced, i.e., "Baptiste" is [batis]. Je m'excuse ded' c,a: I gave you the colloquial Canadian French pronunciation [batis], which is what I learned and how I pronounce it. In "standard" franc,ais, it's [batist]. Michael From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Apr 3 22:31:14 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 17:31:14 -0500 Subject: Sarpy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Je m'excuse ded' c,a: > > I gave you the colloquial Canadian French pronunciation [batis], which is > what I learned and how I pronounce it. In "standard" franc,ais, it's > [batist]. > > Michael > I'll eventually get this right. Colloquian Canadian French "Baptiste" is actually phonetic [batsIs]. Voila`. Michael From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Apr 4 08:25:45 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 01:25:45 -0700 Subject: Pain Court => St. Louis? (fwd) Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Does this imply that St. Louis is originally a Spanish designation for the > place? That would be interesting. No, it was founded in 1764 by Pierre Laclede and Auguste Choteau (c. 15 at the time), on a site they had selected the previous year. They named St. Louis in honor of Louis IX (the crusader king). Laclede noted in his journal that he wondered if it might not become an important place some day. He didn't know it, but France had already secretly signed the territory over to Spain in 1762. The French in Illinois thought that France would retain the Missouri even though they realized that the Illinois would be ceded to England. San Luis is used in the letter because Spanish document tend to refer to everything in terms of Spanish equivalents. (The documents in the collection are all translated, of course.) There are even some Germans around named Juan Couns in censuses, though I don't think they are relatives. Anyway, I think that using conversions into one's own language was the fashion in the 1700s. So Louis is Luis in Spanish, but Lewis in English and Ludwig in German, and so on. I'm not sure why Paincour isn't "translated" too. Maybe it didn't seem to make enough sense to translate. Ste Genevieve was founded in 1735. At least that's one story. Apparently evidence suggests it was actually founded in the 1750s. I wonder if its nickname Misere might be a punning reference to Missouri. That's entirely speculative on my part, of course. It is rather to the south of St. Louis, which is south of the mouth of the Missouri. Ste Genevieve is prone to flooding, as we were all reminded in 1993. (See http://www.stegenevieve.net/sg-floods.htm.) Incidentally, I looked and there is definitely a Pincourt in Quebec, and there are Pincourts in France. It is also attested as a surname. From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Sun Apr 4 13:55:49 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 14:55:49 +0100 Subject: Sarpy Message-ID: In Michif, according to the works of Peter Bakker, 'John' is [baecis], which involves the ae ligature and a hacek over the c. This is because the 'default' John that French boys were named Jean after, was John the Baptist. Anthony From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Apr 4 14:20:08 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 09:20:08 -0500 Subject: Tired of Pain Court yet? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > It did occur to me after I signed off that what I needed was an ecological > survey of St. Louis and that for this it would suffice to have an typical > archaeological investigation of the American Bottom (in the midst of > which, I note without further comment, St. Louis may be found). The American Bottom) is on the east side of the the Mississippi (part of "the Illinois" of those days), across the river from the then-named Spanish Bottom (or Spanish side), which included St. Louis. Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Apr 4 01:33:02 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 19:33:02 -0600 Subject: Tired of Pain Court yet? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > It did occur to me after I signed off that what I needed was an ecological > survey of St. Louis and that for this it would suffice to have an typical > archaeological investigation of the American Bottom (in the midst of > which, I note without further comment, St. Louis may be found). The American Bottom) is on the east side of the the Mississippi (part of "the Illinois" of those days), across the river from the then-named Spanish Bottom, which included St. Louis. Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Apr 4 19:58:50 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 13:58:50 -0600 Subject: Sarpy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Apr 2004, Anthony Grant wrote: > In Michif, according to the works of Peter Bakker, 'John' is [baecis], > which involves the ae ligature and a hacek over the c. This is because > the 'default' John that French boys were named Jean after, was John the > Baptist. When you combine that with Michael's [batcIs], and consider the problems with final consonants in Dhegiha and Ioway-Otoe, Bac^c^i = "(Jean) Baptiste" seems fairly plausible. I have just discovered, however, that I have been barking up the wrong name. It had been bothering me, explaining why Peter G. Sarpy should be called "(Jean) Baptiste," although there are definitely Jean Baptistes enough in his family. So, I decided to look to see what I could find out about the Sarpy family and its genealogy. It appears that the folks in question are all descendents of one Charles Sarpy, born in Fumel in Gascony. He had children Jean Baptiste, Sylvestre Delor(d), Pierre dit Lestang, Gregoire Beral(d), JB (de)Lille, Pierre St. Marc, Susanne Madelaine, Therese Madelaine, Helene Madelaine, and Marie Madelaine. He and his wife seem to have liked certain names, even allowing for Catholic principles in naming. It's possible that JB, who died in 1799, may have predeceased JB (de)Lille, though that seems unlikely, and it's also possible that some of the sons are doublets of the same person - i.e., only one JB and one Pierre. Charles's fourth son, Gregoire Berald Sarpy (1764-1824) followed his older brothers to Louisiana and St. Louis and married Marie-Pelagie Labbadie there in 1797. He had at least two sons, JB Sarpy (1799-) and Peter Abadie Sarpy (1804 or 1805-1865). It was the latter - Peter A., not Peter G. as Dorsey reports - who came to operate the trading post a Bellevue and was one of the founders of Decatur (south of Macy). (I suppose it's possible that PA was Pierre Gregoire Abadie Sarpy, but I've only seen Peter G. from Dorsey.) In fact, in 1823 PA began working at the American Fur Company's operation in Bellevue for Jean Cabanne (father in law of PA's brother JB). In 1832 Sarpy seized the keelboat of a competitor at Cabanne's orders. I don't know the details, but fur traders were mostly great believers in owning the market and excluding competitors unles they were the one's being excluded. He and Cabanne were ordered out of Indian Territory for a year in the aftermath. After enterprises in Iowa and what is now Colorado - I htink I've been to the site - PA returned to Bellevue and in 1840 moved into the trading post formerly occupied by Lucien Fontenelle. Incidentally, there are still Sarpys around in various places in the US. The Delord-Sarpy family seems to have been a prominent creole family in Louisiana. Anyway, I have noticed that Pierre Abadie a/k/a Peter A.'s middle name Abadie (which resembles his mother's maiden name L[']abbadie and is probably derived from it) is at least as likely a source of Bac^c^i as Jean Baptiste. It may actually be more plausible, given that we have OP Badi'ze for Baptiste elsewhere and given that Abadie is the form that actually goes with Peter's known nomenclature. There is certainly a pattern of the Sarpy men using their middle names or nicknames, e.g., (Sylvestre) Delor(d), (Pierre) dit Lestang, (Gregoire) Beral(d), (JB)(de)Lille, and so perhaps (Pierre) Abadie or even 'Badie. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Apr 4 20:31:36 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 15:31:36 -0500 Subject: Sarpy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Anthony Grant wrote: > In Michif, according to the works of Peter Bakker, 'John' is [baecis], > which involves the ae ligature and a hacek over the c. Badsie is an Onondaga chief's name--French?--in 1700 (NYCD 4.805). From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Apr 5 14:23:57 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:23:57 -0500 Subject: Pain Court => St. Louis? (fwd) Message-ID: >> Does this imply that St. Louis is originally a Spanish designation for the >> place? That would be interesting. > > No, it was founded in 1764 by Pierre Laclede and Auguste Choteau (c. 15 at > the time), on a site they had selected the previous year. They named St. > Louis in honor of Louis IX (the crusader king). Laclede noted in his > journal that he wondered if it might not become an important place some > day. Interesting! But I'm still confused about where Pain Court comes into the equation. Was that the site's name prior to 1764? Or was it a nickname applied later by voyageurs? Rory From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Apr 5 14:49:08 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:49:08 -0500 Subject: Sarpy In-Reply-To: <407070A8.4030805@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Well, "Badsie" is not Iroquoian, because of the B-. Iroquoian doesn't have bilabials. The -ds- is a more or less respectable transcription of Canadian French /ts/ (superscript s) for /t/ before /i/ and /u"/ (umlaut over the u). /dz/ (superscript z) in Canadian French represents /d/ before /i/ and /u"/. So, 'John' = [baecis] is probably (Jean)-Baptiste, and "Badsie" seems to be "Baptiste". Michael On Sun, 4 Apr 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > Anthony Grant wrote: > > > In Michif, according to the works of Peter Bakker, 'John' is [baecis], > > which involves the ae ligature and a hacek over the c. > > Badsie is an Onondaga chief's name--French?--in 1700 (NYCD 4.805). > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Apr 5 15:24:04 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 10:24:04 -0500 Subject: Sarpy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Well, "Badsie" is not Iroquoian, because of the B-. Iroquoian doesn't have > bilabials. Good point. (The same phonological fact ruled Iroquois out as the source of 'hoppus,' an earlier concern of mine.) The only other possibility is Dutch, in which Jan Baptist is a common name (and was in 1700 in the Hudson River basin). I don't know anything about colonial American Dutch, but I don't have any reason to think that the [t] was palatized as it was in French. Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 5 22:26:33 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 16:26:33 -0600 Subject: Sarpy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > Anyway, I have noticed that Pierre Abadie a/k/a Peter A.'s middle name > Abadie (which resembles his mother's maiden name L[']abbadie and is > probably derived from it) is at least as likely a source of Bac^c^i as > Jean Baptiste. It may actually be more plausible, given that we have OP > Badi'ze for Baptiste elsewhere and given that Abadie is the form that > actually goes with Peter's known nomenclature. There is certainly a > pattern of the Sarpy men using their middle names or nicknames, e.g., > (Sylvestre) Delor(d), (Pierre) dit Lestang, (Gregoire) Beral(d), > (JB)(de)Lille, and so perhaps (Pierre) Abadie or even 'Badie. Anybody know what the origins of Abadie or Labbadie are? It occurs to me to wonder how Abadie [abadi'] or [abadsi'] might manifest with d as c^c^ as in Bac^c^i, while Baptiste/Battiste with (t)t has that come out as d in Badi'ze. I was also intrigued that both David and Dorsey should come out with initial d as dh while final d in David is n (dhawini/a). In this case the d's might be from English in all cases - certainly with Dorsey, maybe with David. I don't know of any further cases of d to dh or n in loanwords. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 5 16:39:46 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 10:39:46 -0600 Subject: Tired of Pain Court yet? In-Reply-To: <40701998.2000005@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Apr 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > The American Bottom) is on the east side of the the Mississippi (part of > "the Illinois" of those days), across the river from the then-named > Spanish Bottom (or Spanish side), which included St. Louis. Thanks! I think someone has pointed this distinction out to me before, but I tend to lose track of it. Since the American and Spanish Bottoms are, as it were, cheek to cheek across the Mississippi, I suspect that their flora are similar. The American Bottom Archaeology project involved sites in Illinois (East St. Louis and environs) that were being disturbed by highway construction. Since a lot of the western shore archaeology was obliterated by the expansion of St. Louis in the 1800s, the archaeology of the eastern shore is helpful in clarifying matters. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 5 16:13:45 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 10:13:45 -0600 Subject: Pain Court => St. Louis? (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > Interesting! But I'm still confused about where Pain Court > comes into the equation. Was that the site's name prior to > 1764? Or was it a nickname applied later by voyageurs? Prior to 1764 the site was a nameless uninhabited place on a bluff above the Mississippi, as I understand it. However, it was a place with history whose potential for settlement had been noted before. The Cahokia archaeological site is in the general vicinity. I don't know if Laclede recognized its mounds for what they were, or when they were first recognized at all. I deduce that Paincour(t) was a named applied after the site began to develop, by the inhabitants. Like "the Big Apple" or "Gotham" for New York (all three late additions, of course), or LA for Ciudad de los Angeles y tal y cual. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Apr 5 23:48:55 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 18:48:55 -0500 Subject: Sarpy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Sun, 4 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > > Anyway, I have noticed that Pierre Abadie a/k/a Peter A.'s middle name > > Abadie (which resembles his mother's maiden name L[']abbadie and is > > probably derived from it) is at least as likely a source of Bac^c^i as > > Jean Baptiste. It may actually be more plausible, given that we have OP > > Badi'ze for Baptiste elsewhere and given that Abadie is the form that > > actually goes with Peter's known nomenclature. There is certainly a > > pattern of the Sarpy men using their middle names or nicknames, e.g., > > (Sylvestre) Delor(d), (Pierre) dit Lestang, (Gregoire) Beral(d), > > (JB)(de)Lille, and so perhaps (Pierre) Abadie or even 'Badie. > > Anybody know what the origins of Abadie or Labbadie are? > > It occurs to me to wonder how Abadie [abadi'] or [abadsi'] might manifest > with d as c^c^ as in Bac^c^i, while Baptiste/Battiste with (t)t has that > come out as d in Badi'ze. John, I can't quite understand the statement or question, but it didn't occur to me that Abadie/Labbadie was part of the mix. That name could certainly be the source of something like Bac^c^i. Abadie would be [abadzi]. Michael From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 5 23:55:13 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 17:55:13 -0600 Subject: Sarpy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > Anybody know what the origins of Abadie or Labbadie are? Answering myself with the help of http://www.buber.net/Basque/Surname/L/labadie.html: ==== Start of quotation LABADIE Although is a basque surname, that means "The Abbey", the word has a lathin origin, in spanish Abbey is ABADIA, and in French ABBAYE, but in basque priest is ABADEA, so this word was incorporated to the basque language long time ago. The variations of this surname are: ABADIE in Zuberoa, ABADIA: in Nabarra and the North part of the Province of Huesca (this part was basque in the past), LABADIA in Navarra and Huesca, and LABADIE in BeheNavarre (French Basque Country), but also in Navarre and Huesca, there are also families with this surname in Gascogne. This surname is more usual in the French Basque Country than in the Southern, so I suposse that your family comes from the Province of Behenafarroa or Basse Navarre. In any case is not very normal to find Abbeys in our country, and I have told you that Abadea or also Abadie is priest, so the meaning can be also "The house of the priest". Some authors think that the form Labadie is a gasconized form, because of the initial L, that is the article, and in basque the article is the final A or E of the words, Ex: Etxe is house, Etxea is The house. so the L shows that the surname was probably in the origin L'Abadie. ==== End of quotation From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 6 02:29:58 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 20:29:58 -0600 Subject: Sarpy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > It occurs to me to wonder how Abadie [abadi'] or [abadsi'] might manifest > > with d as c^c^ as in Bac^c^i, while Baptiste/Battiste with (t)t has that > > come out as d in Badi'ze. > > John, I can't quite understand the statement or question, but it didn't > occur to me that Abadie/Labbadie was part of the mix. That name could > certainly be the source of something like Bac^c^i. Abadie would be > [abadzi]. I phrased this badly. I meant, it seems odd that Abadie, a word with voiced d (or dz) in French, would come out Bac^c^i', with a voiceless geminate c^c^ [tts^], while Baptiste, a word with a voiceless, possibly geminate t (or ts) in French, would come out Badi'ze, with a voiced d. Note that the earlier voiced b in both cases comes out b. You'd expect Baj^i and Batti'ze. At least those seem more regular. It's possible that subtle factors in the assimilation of nonsense sequences like these to Omaha-Ponca canons of word form are at work. For example, eliminating initial a- would make Bac^c^i sound less like a first person, which would be a strange form for a name. The ideal would be Bac^c^ibi 'He ...s', whatever *c^c^i meant. It might be being assimilated to c^hi 'to have intercourse with'. Still, to my admittedly non-native sensibilities Batti'ze seems as reasonable as Badi'ze. I understand -s > -ze, because voicing is normal in post tonic position for fricatives. The first case calls to mind a reference to a Jewish pedlar in Lurie's Mountain Wolf Woman. As I understand it, when asked how MWW knew or remembered he was Jewish, Lurie replied that no Winnebago in the old days would forget later that someone was a j^u, having heard it, because it was amusing, j^u being the Winnebago cognate of OP c^hi, and the sort of chance homophony that stuck in your mind. This man was called s^orot, from his pronunciation of shirt. I wonder if he said s^ort, and the additional o brings the name into accord with Winnebago syllable structure, though historically the epenthesis works the other way in Winnebago: *s^rot > *s^orot. (Note, however, that final -t would be unsual in Winnebago, since *t(e)# > c^#, so *s^rot < *s^oroc^.) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 6 04:01:59 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 22:01:59 -0600 Subject: More Pain Message-ID: I have a French military dictionary. I looked in it and found several pain forms that seem to amount to ingot or bar or metal, e.g., pain d'acier (steel), pain de cuivre (copper). Sort of like sugarloaf in English. I think someone mentioned sugarloaf. I suppose paincourt could also mean an underweight ingot, or perhaps, by extension, it could be a reference to underpaying or shortchanging or cheating someone. The same could be true of a form meaning 'short loaf (of bread)'. This would not be as popular an explanation with the city fathers, of course, but might be just as plausible in reference to a market town. I don't recall any parallel cases off hand. I've given a little thought as to what sorts of native names might lead to pain cour(t). The best I can come up with are Peoria (Pewarewa) and Piankashaw (peangis^ia). The French truncation of the former was Pe(z). The main Illinois village in the vincinity was Cahokia, on the east bank, which gives its name spuriously to the archaeological sites near St. Louis. The Peoria were on the east bank somewhat to the north with the Cahokia from 1763 to 1766, which is just at the foundation of St. Louis, and they were around St. Louis on both banks in the 1760s generally. Until 1763 they were on the upper reaches of the Illinois near Lake Peoria. About this time they absorbed the Cahokia and Peoria came to be one of the main terms for the Illinois. In contrast the Kaskaskia and Michigamea were near Ft. Chartres and Ste. Genevieve. Pe is obviously a fairly good match for Pain (piN, peN), but unnasalized, and I can't get to Paincour(t) from there except by the unprincipled approach of claiming an alliterative word play. Not that we don't seem have evidence that such things exist, and that's the proposal I've offered for getting from Pain court to PpahiN z^ide. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Apr 6 13:17:38 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 08:17:38 -0500 Subject: Sarpy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 5 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > > It occurs to me to wonder how Abadie [abadi'] or [abadsi'] might manifest > > > with d as c^c^ as in Bac^c^i, while Baptiste/Battiste with (t)t has that > > > come out as d in Badi'ze. > > > > John, I can't quite understand the statement or question, but it didn't > > occur to me that Abadie/Labbadie was part of the mix. That name could > > certainly be the source of something like Bac^c^i. Abadie would be > > [abadzi]. > > I phrased this badly. I meant, it seems odd that Abadie, a word with > voiced d (or dz) in French, would come out Bac^c^i', with a voiceless > geminate c^c^ [tts^], while Baptiste, a word with a voiceless, possibly > geminate t (or ts) in French, would come out Badi'ze, with a voiced d. > Note that the earlier voiced b in both cases comes out b. You'd expect > Baj^i and Batti'ze. At least those seem more regular. I assume that here, John, you are talking about things that happen in Siouan languages when they process European language terms, i.e., devoicing a voiced French sound and voicing a sound that is not voiced in French. Also, the t is not geminate in French "Baptiste". (Also, also, I don't know if this is of any value--and unfortunately I don't know the distribution of this fonological fenomenon--some Canadian French speakers pronounce the /a/ of "Baptiste" as a back a (somewhat like the a in English "father".) Michael From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Apr 6 17:54:07 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 12:54:07 -0500 Subject: Pain Court => St. Louis? (fwd) Message-ID: >> Interesting! But I'm still confused about where Pain Court >> comes into the equation. Was that the site's name prior to >> 1764? Or was it a nickname applied later by voyageurs? > > Prior to 1764 the site was a nameless uninhabited place on a bluff above > the Mississippi, as I understand it. However, it was a place with history > whose potential for settlement had been noted before. The Cahokia > archaeological site is in the general vicinity. I don't know if Laclede > recognized its mounds for what they were, or when they were first > recognized at all. I deduce that Paincour(t) was a named applied after > the site began to develop, by the inhabitants. Like "the Big Apple" or > "Gotham" for New York (all three late additions, of course), or LA for > Ciudad de los Angeles y tal y cual. Possibly, but this name seems to have been an alternate from pretty early on. We might want to reckon with the possibility that it was derived from the original international Indian name for Cahokia, which might still have been remembered historically by the still-intact Indian societies at that time. The name might have been something like *Pa-i(N)-***. Indians would have continued to refer to the vicinity by that name, and French voyageurs would have punned it to Pain Court. As a wild shot, does /(h)ko:/ mean anything in local Algonquian languages? What would be their term for 'red'? Rory From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Apr 7 00:07:32 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (david costa) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 20:07:32 -0400 Subject: Pain Court => St. Louis? (fwd) Message-ID: No, /(h)ko:/ doesn't mean anything in the local Algonquian languages. The candidate roots for 'red' in Illinois are /niihpik-/ or, less often, /mihkw-/~/miskw-/. I don't think they're present here. The /hko/ is Shawnee /peenhko/ is just their phonetic rendering of French 'court'. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Rory M Larson Sent: Apr 6, 2004 1:54 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Pain Court => St. Louis? (fwd) As a wild shot, does /(h)ko:/ mean anything in local Algonquian languages? What would be their term for 'red'? Rory From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Fri Apr 9 10:30:48 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 12:30:48 +0200 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved Message-ID: Can anybody plz enlighten me with the construction (etymology?) of those one-word-sentences all involving the idea of 'hill'? (I'm aware of the verbs included as there are _gli_, _hi_ etc., and the affixes' _a-_, _e-_ (a + i ?) functions). But what is the meaning of the remaining _yahaN_? Can it be broken down to _ya_ etc. and what does it mean? (Buechel gives _yahaN_ in a meaning - see last entry below! - that doesn't seem to be etymologically connected to the idea of 'hill', does it? Or am I missing anything? gliya'hAN to appear on top of a hill in sight on one's way home agli'yahAN they came up a hill and stopped in sight on their way home e'yahAN they go up a hill and stand on hiya'hAN to appear on top of a hill, so becoming visible; said in ref. to one ahi'yahAN they came up (...) a hill and stood in sight agli'yoxpayA they came down from a hill ahi'yoxpayA they came down a hill ai'natxagya beyond a hill yahaN' to prick or run into one, as a splinter, thorn etc Thanks in advance Alfred From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Apr 9 14:19:10 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 09:19:10 -0500 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved Message-ID: Hi Alfred! My first question on that would be whether the [y] in _yahaN_ is real or epenthetic. The latter seems possible, as it always follows front vowels [i] or [e] in your examples. Have you tried looking up _ahaN_, or just plain _haN_ ? The one pair of examples you give that I'm pretty sure of is: > agli'yoxpayA > they came down from a hill > ahi'yoxpayA > they came down a hill Here, I'm sure the [y] is epenthetic. _oxpayA_ must correspond to OP uxpa'dhe, which means to fall. So these should equate morphologically to (hypothetical) OP: agdhi uxpadhe came back here fell athi uxpadhe arrived here fell So in this case at least, there is probably no explicit hill as such, but only the statement that they came back here or arrived here via a descending path. I'd suspect that the (a)haN part means something like 'stand on high'. Rory "Alfred W. T?ting" To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent by: cc: owner-siouan at lists.c Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved olorado.edu 04/09/2004 05:30 AM Please respond to siouan Can anybody plz enlighten me with the construction (etymology?) of those one-word-sentences all involving the idea of 'hill'? (I'm aware of the verbs included as there are _gli_, _hi_ etc., and the affixes' _a-_, _e-_ (a + i ?) functions). But what is the meaning of the remaining _yahaN_? Can it be broken down to _ya_ etc. and what does it mean? (Buechel gives _yahaN_ in a meaning - see last entry below! - that doesn't seem to be etymologically connected to the idea of 'hill', does it? Or am I missing anything? gliya'hAN to appear on top of a hill in sight on one's way home agli'yahAN they came up a hill and stopped in sight on their way home e'yahAN they go up a hill and stand on hiya'hAN to appear on top of a hill, so becoming visible; said in ref. to one ahi'yahAN they came up (...) a hill and stood in sight agli'yoxpayA they came down from a hill ahi'yoxpayA they came down a hill ai'natxagya beyond a hill yahaN' to prick or run into one, as a splinter, thorn etc Thanks in advance Alfred From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Apr 9 16:28:35 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 10:28:35 -0600 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved In-Reply-To: <40767B58.3040902@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Apr 2004, "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: > Can anybody plz enlighten me with the construction (etymology?) of those > one-word-sentences all involving the idea of 'hill'? > gliya'hAN > to appear on top of a hill in sight on one's way home ... > e'yahAN > they go up a hill and stand on ... > yahaN' > to prick or run into one, as a splinter, thorn etc I quite agree with Rory's insight that these forms involve epenthetic y between a high vowel and another vowel and his comparison of oxpayA to OP uxpadhe 'to fall, to drop', i.e., 'to travel downward', a very exact cognate. The last verb 'to prick' may be unrelated. I would help to know its inflectional pattern. The ahaN part of the others looks like it would correspond to hypothetical OP athaN. I don't recall if this is attested in Dhegiha, but it would be superessive a- plus thaN 'to stand' - a positional root only in Dhegiha with an analysis something like 'for an animate to be located or posed in an upright fashion'. This is not the productive lexical verb 'to stand' which is naNz^iN. In OP thaN is the inflected definite article, (definite) relative marker, and progressive auxiliary for the category 'animate obviative standing', e.g., UmaNhaN aNgathaN 'we (standing) Omahas (who)' or PpadhiN=thaN 'the (standing) Pawnee'. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Fri Apr 9 17:21:02 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 19:21:02 +0200 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved Message-ID: >Hi Alfred! My first question on that would be whether the [y] in _yahaN_ is real or epenthetic. The latter seems possible, as it always follows front vowels [i] or [e] in your examples. Have you tried looking up _ahaN_, or just plain _haN_ ? The one pair of examples you give that I'm pretty sure of is: agli'yoxpayA they came down from a hill ahi'yoxpayA they came down a hill Here, I'm sure the [y] is epenthetic. _oxpayA_ must correspond to OP uxpa'dhe, which means to fall. So these should equate morphologically to (hypothetical) OP: agdhi uxpadhe came back here fell athi uxpadhe arrived here fell So in this case at least, there is probably no explicit hill as such, but only the statement that they came back here or arrived here via a descending path. I'd suspect that the (a)haN part means something like 'stand on hi Rory<< Hau Rory! thanks for your prompt reply that really gave me some hint on this matter: I actually found _ahaN'_ - to stand on _oxpa'_ - to drop -> oxpa'ye thi'pi - dormitory quartern _ahaN'_ - to stand on, rest on _ahaN'_ - take care, look out. 'Be careful!' (as is said when something is losing its balance and will drop, as a lamp on the edge of a table) ... and, of course, _han/he_ - to stand (of many things of appropriate shapes) e.g. (of a restaurant in Rood's examples): "Ka wiglioinazi kin hel isakib wanzi HE" (There's one over there, next to the gas station). As it might seem (and the 2nd example appears to indicate), _ahan_ not only implies the idea of standing on/at smth, but also of being careful in a sense of 'to watch' (=look out), which might derive from the idea of standing on a hilltop and looking afar from there. Here are some more entries (Buechel SJ) maybe pointing in this direction: _ahaN'kiktapi_ - a wake, a watching at the body of a deceased person (from: _ahaN_ + _kikta'_) - maybe, this taking place on a hilltop(??) _ahaN'naz^iN khuwa'_ - to bother one constantly (perhaps: smb 'chasing' you by standing and watching/observing your behavior etc.) _ahaN'zi_ - to be shady, overshadowed (_ahan_ + _zi_ - yellow, smoky??; maybe, as of a cloud on a hilltop?) Amalupte kin lila pilamayayelo! Alfred From rankin at ku.edu Fri Apr 9 17:43:18 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 12:43:18 -0500 Subject: Need quick Dhegiha answer. Message-ID: I've been contacted by the KS State Historical Society regarding some way of giving a happy "send-off" to the head of the Kaw Mission historic site in Council Grove, KS. I know the guy, and he has worked hard to bring the Kaw Nation into his site and ensure that they have an important role to play, so I'd like to help. Unfortunately I don't have anything appropriate in Kaw that I can use. None of you happens to have some sort of term like "good luck" or "best wishes", do you? They want something that will fit on top of a cake for the retirement party. I can translate from Omaha, Ponca or Osage if you have anything in one or two words that would be appropriate. They need it this afternoon (of course). I gave them a longer utterance in Kaw that will fit on a card but not a cake. "Hau" is not enough. Maybe "Ho kkoya!", but if you have something more genuine, I'd appreciate hearing it. Thanks! I apologize for the trivia. Bob From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Fri Apr 9 18:12:55 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 20:12:55 +0200 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved Message-ID: >e'yahAN they go up a hill and stand on ... yahaN' to prick or run into one, as a splinter, thorn etc<< >>I quite agree with Rory's insight that these forms involve epenthetic y between a high vowel and another vowel and his comparison of oxpayA to OP uxpadhe 'to fall, to drop', i.e., 'to travel downward', a very exact cognate. The last verb 'to prick' may be unrelated. It would help to know its inflectional pattern.<<<< I feel like convinced ;-) Thanks a lot! So _e'yahan_ is composed a+i+ahaN (with _i_ meaning 'to have arrived there'). _yahan'_ is inflected maya'han, niya'han etc. (Buechel: "Yunkan wicasa wanzila unkcela wan yahan keyapi" - And then they said a cactus stuck the man.) yuN'kxaN - and; also; then uNh^ce'la - cactus Alfred From tleonard at prodigy.net Fri Apr 9 18:13:33 2004 From: tleonard at prodigy.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 13:13:33 -0500 Subject: Need quick Dhegiha answer. Message-ID: Bob, I once saw "NoNde Giuda Ankontha" (not sure of the 'spelling' here) on a cake at a NAC meeting at White Eagle (Ponca). It was translated as "we want you to have a happy heart"....since apparently, as I was told, there's no real way of saying "happy birthday" or "best wishes" in Ponca. Hope that helps. Tom Leonard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 12:43 PM Subject: Need quick Dhegiha answer. > I've been contacted by the KS State Historical Society regarding some > way of giving a happy "send-off" to the head of the Kaw Mission historic > site in Council Grove, KS. I know the guy, and he has worked hard to > bring the Kaw Nation into his site and ensure that they have an > important role to play, so I'd like to help. Unfortunately I don't have > anything appropriate in Kaw that I can use. > > None of you happens to have some sort of term like "good luck" or "best > wishes", do you? They want something that will fit on top of a cake for > the retirement party. I can translate from Omaha, Ponca or Osage if you > have anything in one or two words that would be appropriate. They need > it this afternoon (of course). I gave them a longer utterance in Kaw > that will fit on a card but not a cake. "Hau" is not enough. Maybe "Ho > kkoya!", but if you have something more genuine, I'd appreciate hearing > it. Thanks! > > I apologize for the trivia. > > Bob > From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Fri Apr 9 18:24:40 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 20:24:40 +0200 Subject: Need quick Dhegiha answer. Message-ID: For what it's worth, that's what I found at Buechel's: _oka'blaya_ - peacefully, without obstruction; expanded; plain, level; freely, as in discoursing; having good luck So maybe smth like "Okablaya po!" (?) Alfred >I've been contacted by the KS State Historical Society regarding some way of giving a happy "send-off" to the head of the Kaw Mission historic site in Council Grove, KS. I know the guy, and he has worked hard to bring the Kaw Nation into his site and ensure that they have an important role to play, so I'd like to help. Unfortunately I don't have anything appropriate in Kaw that I can use. None of you happens to have some sort of term like "good luck" or "best wishes", do you? They want something that will fit on top of a cake for the retirement party. I can translate from Omaha, Ponca or Osage if you have anything in one or two words that would be appropriate. They need it this afternoon (of course). I gave them a longer utterance in Kaw that will fit on a card but not a cake. "Hau" is not enough. Maybe "Ho kkoya!", but if you have something more genuine, I'd appreciate hearing it. Thanks!<< From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Apr 9 23:31:54 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 17:31:54 -0600 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved In-Reply-To: <4076DB7E.2040606@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Apr 2004, "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: > _ahaN'_ - to stand on > ... and, of course, _han/he_ - to stand (of many things of appropriate > shapes) e.g. (of a restaurant in Rood's examples): "Ka wiglioinazi kin > hel isakib wanzi HE" (There's one over there, next to the gas station). Definitely cognate with Omaha-Ponca thaN. And the corresponding inanimatge for is the. PS *th > Da h and OP th. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Apr 9 23:44:07 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 17:44:07 -0600 Subject: Need quick Dhegiha answer. In-Reply-To: <001a01c41e5e$6038a2a0$09de8d42@tleonard> Message-ID: How about wibdhahaN 'thank you' (or 'I will pray for you')? I think this is dative wi-gi-b-dhahaN < wi + gigdhahaN. I always forget the precise forms of dh-stems vs. ga-stems in datives and suus, so maybe this is gidhahaN. In any event, this is to go into Kaw, the dative will be something else again. Saying this with the hands outstretched is particularly major and wouldn't be done casually in any sense. This might not be a major enough situation. I believe the idiom for stretching out the hands is in Dorsey, but I forget it. A saluting form in the Dorsey texts used in a case of special gratitude is Hau, name! Hau! There are definitely far fewer occasional formulae in Siouan languages than seem needed to a wa(a)'xe. I guess prayers qualify, and there are patterns to those, but as they don't occur in Dorsey, I don't know them. I don't think there's any formal situation for an Omaha where a prayer wouldn't be deemed appropriate. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Apr 9 23:53:29 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 17:53:29 -0600 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved In-Reply-To: <4076E7A7.5000609@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Apr 2004, "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: > _yahan'_ is inflected maya'han, niya'han etc. (Buechel: "Yunkan wicasa > wanzila unkcela wan yahan keyapi" - And then they said a cactus stuck > the man.) > > yuN'kxaN - and; also; then > uNh^ce'la - cactus Is blahaN or lahaN possible? This could be considered to be a transitive verb that requires a third person inanimate subject (that follows the animate object), but it amounts to an experiencer verb. I suppose ya is the mouth instrumental - likening sticking to biting. Another possibility would be i 'locative of instrument' + ahaN. I don't have enough data to tell yet. In any event, y here doesn't seem to be epenthetic. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sat Apr 10 09:54:37 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 11:54:37 +0200 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved Message-ID: >(John Koontz) Is blahaN or lahaN possible? This could be considered to be a transitive verb that requires a third person inanimate subject (that follows the animate object), but it amounts to an experiencer verb.<< Oh, ez a k?rd?s! But I don't think so, as Buechel doesn't give these inflections and, moreover, indicates the verb as 'vn' (neutral verb) this being his term for 'stative verb'. Under the English entry 'stick', _yahan_ is given as "TO BE stuck with as with a splinter"(capitalization by me). >I suppose ya is the mouth instrumental - likening sticking to biting. Another possibility would be i 'locative of instrument' + ahaN. I don't have enough data to tell yet. In any event, y here doesn't seem to be epenthetic.<< The former was my first thought too; the latter also seems pretty plausible, yet, the remaining part (-ahan) as such doesn't seem to incorporate the idea of 'prick/stick/bite', does it? (Maybe: to stand/be located on top of smth acute/spiky/'peakish', e.g. like a cactus, and being pricked BY it???) This interpretation might be grounded in Buechel's example (wicasa wanzila unkcela wan ...) where the stative verb obviously has TWO arguments! Shouldn't there be smth creating this 2nd slot, i.e. an instrumental affix _i-_? Alfred From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sat Apr 10 12:43:02 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 14:43:02 +0200 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved Message-ID: >>On Fri, 9 Apr 2004, "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: _ahaN'_ - to stand on ... and, of course, _han/he_ - to stand (of many things of appropriate shapes) e.g. (of a restaurant in Rood's examples): "Ka wiglioinazi kin hel isakib wanzi HE" (There's one over there, next to the gas station).<<<< >(JEK) Definitely cognate with Omaha-Ponca thaN. And the corresponding inanimate for is the. PS *th > Da h and OP th.<< If I understand correctly, the O-P cognate of Da _haN'/he'_ is animate? This is interesting, since the Da (modern) form is not(at least with reference to humans)! Buechel: "han vn: to stand upright, as of things, to remain, as said of grass, arrows that strike the ground and stand; also of cattle etc. that remain or stay in a certain locality. < Hel hanpi s^ke. Tatanka optaye nunpa he lo There they say is soup. There remain two herds of buffalo>" With regard to our very topic, it looks like that on an earlier stage (historical level) _haN'_ still had been used with animates (-> agliyahan etc.). Alfred From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Apr 11 00:10:05 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:10:05 -0600 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved In-Reply-To: <4077C45D.9050509@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Apr 2004, "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: > Oh, ez a k?rd?s! Sorry - my Hungarian is weak. It is Hungarian, right? > But I don't think so, as Buechel doesn't give these inflections and, > moreover, indicates the verb as 'vn' (neutral verb) this being his term > for 'stative verb'. Under the English entry 'stick', _yahan_ is given as > "TO BE stuck with as with a splinter"(capitalization by me). > >I suppose ya is the mouth instrumental - likening sticking to biting. > Another possibility would be i 'locative of instrument' + ahaN. I > don't have enough data to tell yet. In any event, y here doesn't seem > to be epenthetic.<< > > The former was my first thought too; the latter also seems pretty > plausible, yet, the remaining part (-ahan) as such doesn't seem to > incorporate the idea of 'prick/stick/bite', does it? (Maybe: to stand/be > located on top of smth acute/spiky/'peakish', e.g. like a cactus, and > being pricked BY it???) This interpretation might be grounded in > Buechel's example (wicasa wanzila unkcela wan ...) where the stative > verb obviously has TWO arguments! Shouldn't there be smth creating this > 2nd slot, i.e. an instrumental affix _i-_? Well, Ingham lists ic^a'ma 'to prick' taku' is^ta' ima'kama 'something pricked me in the eye', which has the 2 object i-locative format, complicated in the example by possessor raising. Otherwise what I find for 'stab' is c^ha=...phA, comparable to OP z^a=...he or IO ya=...we, which is transitive. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Apr 11 00:15:20 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:15:20 -0600 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved In-Reply-To: <4077EBD6.1040709@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Apr 2004, "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: > If I understand correctly, the O-P cognate of Da _haN'/he'_ is animate? > This is interesting, since the Da (modern) form is not(at least with > reference to humans)! > > Buechel: "han vn: to stand upright, as of things, to remain, as said of > grass, arrows that strike the ground and stand; also of cattle etc. that > remain or stay in a certain locality. < Hel hanpi s^ke. Tatanka optaye > nunpa he lo There they say is soup. There remain two herds of buffalo>" > > With regard to our very topic, it looks like that on an earlier stage > (historical level) _haN'_ still had been used with animates (-> > agliyahan etc.). As definite articles thaN is used with animates only, while the is used with inanimates only. I'm not quite sure how it fell out that way in Dhegiha languages, since I don't think that animacy or inanimacy are primary attributes of the roots. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sun Apr 11 12:55:56 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 14:55:56 +0200 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved Message-ID: (AWT) The former was my first thought too; the latter also seems pretty plausible, yet, the remaining part (-ahan) as such doesn't seem to incorporate the idea of 'prick/stick/bite', does it? (Maybe: to stand/be located on top of smth acute/spiky/'peakish', e.g. like a cactus, and being pricked BY it???) This interpretation might be grounded in Buechel's example (wicasa wanzila unkcela wan ...) where the stative verb obviously has TWO arguments! Shouldn't there be smth creating this 2nd slot, i.e. an instrumental affix _i-_? (JEK) Well, Ingham lists ic^a'ma 'to prick' taku' is^ta' ima'kama 'something pricked me in the eye', which has the 2 object i-locative format, complicated in the example by possessor raising. Don't think that it's possessor raising complicating things here - but smth I found at Buechel that's a bit puzzling :(( 1) _ic?ma_ adj: rough, as cloth or the beard; pricking (...) vn: to hurt or prick, as anything in the eye or elsewhere < t?ku is^t? im?kama Something is hurting my eye > (...) 2) _ic?b_ v contrac of icapa: to stick in < ic?b ic? to stick in and take out (...) _ic?pa_ v ic?wapa [fr _i_ in + capa to stick in]: to stick into, to take a stitch, to stab with, to stick in, e.g. a thorn or a stick < can ic?mapa. Na unma pestola (...) Was^in icapa wacin yelo. A stick stuck me. And another (...) He tried sticking into the fat. > Apart from the different pronunciations [icama vs ichab/ichapa], the former is a stative verb (vn), the latter a (transitive?) active verb (v), hence the functions of the i-prefixes respective seem to be different: instrumental (icama) and locative (ichapa). Chan icha'mapa - a stick has stuck (into) me Was^in' icha'apa wachin' yelo - he wanted to stick (into) the fat It seems that all 3 verbs (i.e. yahan vn, icama vn, ichapa v) do not have direct objects (but objects in locative). Do they have an agent subject? ichapa obviously has (e.g. chaN - stick). yahaN', as a stative verb, shouldn't have one (uNh^cela waN - BY a cactus??). And, what's with icama, classified as a stative verb (vn) as well?! No agent subject ta'ku? If this is correct, the sentence "ta'ku is^ta'ima'kama" has two objects, one instrumental (ta'ku), and one in locative (is^ta') - the latter being related to the -ma- infix for possessor raising. Can it be that the _i-_, here is double functional, i.e. instrumental plus locative at the same time? Pretty puzzling to me!! >Sorry - my Hungarian is weak. It is Hungarian, right?<< Yes. Sorry on my side, this is a 'gefl?geltes Wort' of mine, e.g. of Hamlet: Lenni vagy nem lenni, ez itt a k?rd?s (to be or not to be...) Happy Easter/Pessach to all! Alfred From goodtracks at GBRonline.com Sun Apr 11 15:27:04 2004 From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 10:27:04 -0500 Subject: Fw: Fw: [Lexicog] new nosey word Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "LONSKY,JIRI" To: "Jimm GoodTracks" Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2004 3:15 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [Lexicog] new nosey word Yes, it is true. Some of our consonants are so called "syllable-forming", r, l, m; practically their ability to stand in for a wovel is related to the possibility to hold a length (like rrrrrrr and llll, while in other consonants this is not possible (b, p, k, t etc.) These then cannot be syllable forming. I had an interesting conversation a while ago with a Czech man in New mexico who brought to my attention close linguistic ties between the Basque language and Czech. Amazing. Hope you are well, Jiri On Sat Apr 10 20:37:58 EDT 2004, Jimm GoodTracks wrote: > Jiri! > Is this true that Czech has words without vowels?? If so, how do > they > pronounce the words?? > Jimm > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jan Ullrich" > To: > Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 4:09 AM > Subject: RE: [Lexicog] new nosey word > Fritz > > In Czech, my native language, probably the longest word without > vowels is > ?scvrnkls?. It means something like ?you pushed it away with you > finger?. > I think most of the Czech vowel-less words usually have about > three to five > consonants, but quite frequently they can be combined into > sentences, > similar to the famous Czech tongue twister: > > Strc prst skrz krk. (Stick your finger through your throat.) > > In such Czech words it is indeed ?r? and ?l? that are > phonetically > vowel-like. > Jan Ullrich > Lakota Language Revitalization Project > Indiana University, Bloomington > www.lakotalanguage.org > From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Sun Apr 11 16:32:37 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 11:32:37 -0500 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved Message-ID: >> If I understand correctly, the O-P cognate of Da _haN'/he'_ is animate? >> This is interesting, since the Da (modern) form is not(at least with >> reference to humans)! >> >> Buechel: "han vn: to stand upright, as of things, to remain, as said of >> grass, arrows that strike the ground and stand; also of cattle etc. that >> remain or stay in a certain locality. < Hel hanpi s^ke. Tatanka optaye >> nunpa he lo There they say is soup. There remain two herds of buffalo>" >> >> With regard to our very topic, it looks like that on an earlier stage >> (historical level) _haN'_ still had been used with animates (-> >> agliyahan etc.). > As definite articles thaN is used with animates only, while the is used > with inanimates only. I'm not quite sure how it fell out that way in > Dhegiha languages, since I don't think that animacy or inanimacy are > primary attributes of the roots. OP the is actually pretty complicated in its usage. It can refer to a standing inanimate thing, like a post or a house, but it is perhaps most commonly used to refer to ordered sets of things, like (an armload of) rocks, or both members of a set of paired body parts. Thus, one leg would be khe, "elongate", but both legs would be the, "the set". One eye would be dhaN, "globular", but both eyes would be the. A single hand, however, is still the, I suppose because all the fingers composing it are regarded as a set. I think that the also refers to very precisely located points, vs. dhaN, which implies a general area if referring to a location. And then we have a modal use of the, which in modern times is understood to mean "evidently", and which in the Dorsey texts from the 19th century seem to mean that the thing happened prior to the current time or the current point in the narrative, in a way that seems possibly perfective. I think Bob has argued that our the actually derives historically from two different roots. As John says, thaN seems to simply refer to standing animates only. What is the difference between haN and he in Dakotan? Alfred's example seems to be using he to refer to two remaining buffalo herds, if I'm reading it right. Would a herd be considered animate in the way a single buffalo would? Or could the he in this case be referring to the _set_ of two herds? Rory From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sun Apr 11 18:10:12 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 20:10:12 +0200 Subject: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved Message-ID: > (Rory) OP the is actually pretty complicated in its usage.(...)<< Very impressing how Siouan languages can differ among them. > What is the difference between haN and he in Dakotan? Alfred's example seems to be using he to refer to two remaining buffalo herds, if I'm reading it right. Would a herd be considered animate in the way a single buffalo would? Or could the he in this case be referring to the _set_ of two herds? << As far I can understand, there's no difference of that kind referred to by you. As Buechel points out (and I gather it), the _he_ form is used as a syntactic final and - as, according B., it seems - also has a flavour of factuality/past. Learning this, I was wondering a bit about B's present tense translation of the Buffalo sentence. Also, Rood's example dialogue actually refers to present tense! Here it is again, (although from my memory): A: He otunwahe kin el tuktel owote tipi wanzi HAN(!) hwo? B: Ka wiglioinazin kin hel isakib wanzi HE(!). Yet, it clearly demonstrates the use of the two forms han/he Alfred From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sun Apr 11 18:44:19 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 20:44:19 +0200 Subject: [Lexicog] new nosey word Message-ID: >Yes, it is true. Some of our consonants are so called "syllable-forming", r, l, m; practically their ability to stand in for a wovel is related to the possibility to hold a length (like rrrrrrr and llll, while in other consonants this is not possible (b, p, k, t etc.) These then cannot be syllable forming. I had an interesting conversation a while ago with a Czech man in New mexico who brought to my attention close linguistic ties between the Basque language and Czech. Amazing. Hope you are well, Jiri<< > In Czech, my native language, probably the longest word without vowels is ?scvrnkls?. It means something like ?you pushed it away with you finger?. I think most of the Czech vowel-less words usually have about three to five consonants, but quite frequently they can be combined into sentences, similar to the famous Czech tongue twister: Strc prst skrz krk. (Stick your finger through your throat.) In such Czech words it is indeed ?r? and ?l? that are phonetically vowel-like. Jan Ullrich << Yes, the "Strc (stick) prst (finger) skrz (through) krk (throat)!" sentence is a really famous one - and (although I'm not very familiar with Czech) I'm proud to be able to pronounce this sentence since my childhood ;-) Here (and in other samples), the R actually seems to have vowel quality (sometimes also L can have, e.g. in Bavarian or, say, Viennese dialect). Just one consideration: In Serbo-Croatian (that I do not speak) there's a word 'trg' (about: market) and in Romanian (that I'm familiar with) there's a word with the same meaning, spelled 't?rg' or (now again) 't?rg' (e.g. the toponym T?rgu-Mures/Maros V?s?rhely) which is pronounced with a 'darkened' vowel and - as I feel - quite similar to the 'vowelless' slavic version! So, is it only depending from what angle one is looking at it to decide whether the R is bearing the vowel or not??? Alfred From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Sun Apr 11 20:04:02 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 14:04:02 -0600 Subject: syllabic consonants Message-ID: Hi, everyone -- I haven't been following this discussion very well, but the concept of syllabic consonants caught my eye. In the unpublished intro to optimality theory by Prince and Smolensky (partly published in "Optimality Theory in Phonology; A REader" ed. by John McCarthy, Blackwell, 2004), they discuss (pp. 7ff in the McCarthy book) a dialect of Berber which allows any consonant whatsoever to be the peak of a syllable. They cite words like"bddl" and "tftkt". Their references are to several papers by Francois Dell and Mohamed Elmedlaoui int he Journal of African Linguistics and the Journal of Afroasiatic Languages in 1985, 1988, and 1989. -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of Alfred W. T?ting Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2004 12:44 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: [Lexicog] new nosey word >Yes, it is true. Some of our consonants are so called "syllable-forming", r, l, m; practically their ability to stand in for a wovel is related to the possibility to hold a length (like rrrrrrr and llll, while in other consonants this is not possible (b, p, k, t etc.) These then cannot be syllable forming. I had an interesting conversation a while ago with a Czech man in New mexico who brought to my attention close linguistic ties between the Basque language and Czech. Amazing. Hope you are well, Jiri<< > In Czech, my native language, probably the longest word without vowels is ?scvrnkls?. It means something like ?you pushed it away with you finger?. I think most of the Czech vowel-less words usually have about three to five consonants, but quite frequently they can be combined into sentences, similar to the famous Czech tongue twister: Strc prst skrz krk. (Stick your finger through your throat.) In such Czech words it is indeed ?r? and ?l? that are phonetically vowel-like. Jan Ullrich << Yes, the "Strc (stick) prst (finger) skrz (through) krk (throat)!" sentence is a really famous one - and (although I'm not very familiar with Czech) I'm proud to be able to pronounce this sentence since my childhood ;-) Here (and in other samples), the R actually seems to have vowel quality (sometimes also L can have, e.g. in Bavarian or, say, Viennese dialect). Just one consideration: In Serbo-Croatian (that I do not speak) there's a word 'trg' (about: market) and in Romanian (that I'm familiar with) there's a word with the same meaning, spelled 't?rg' or (now again) 't?rg' (e.g. the toponym T?rgu-Mures/Maros V?s?rhely) which is pronounced with a 'darkened' vowel and - as I feel - quite similar to the 'vowelless' slavic version! So, is it only depending from what angle one is looking at it to decide whether the R is bearing the vowel or not??? Alfred From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Apr 12 00:13:12 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 19:13:12 -0500 Subject: Linguistic term needed Message-ID: Does anybody have a proper linguistic term for the phenomenon of borrowing a word from a foreign language in such a way as to build a native construction that approximately chimes with the phonological sequence of the original? I've been using "pun", but I suspect there's a more appropriate term for it. Thanks! Rory From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 12 03:44:12 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 22:44:12 -0500 Subject: Linguistic term needed Message-ID: Got an example? I'm not sure I have the proper term, but I'm thinking of the Chinese borrowing the word "America" as mei-guo (which has 2 similar syllables). And mei-guo, perhaps conscious choice, means roughly 'beautiful kingdom'. I suppose it's a kind of "loan-blend", but not the typical kind. Bob > Does anybody have a proper linguistic term for the phenomenon > of borrowing a word from a foreign language in such a way as to > build a native construction that approximately chimes with the > phonological sequence of the original? I've been using "pun", > but I suspect there's a more appropriate term for it. > > Thanks! > Rory > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 12 07:56:36 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 01:56:36 -0600 Subject: Linguistic term needed In-Reply-To: <01cc01c42040$7e13a930$18b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Apr 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > Got an example? I'm not sure I have the proper term, but I'm thinking > of the Chinese borrowing the word "America" as mei-guo (which has 2 > similar syllables). And mei-guo, perhaps conscious choice, means roughly > 'beautiful kingdom'. I suppose it's a kind of "loan-blend", but not the > typical kind. It's sort of the inverse of a calque, with elements of a folk etymology. It's also a sort of cross-linguistic pattern of malapropism. Instead of translating the elements by sense, one looks for resemblent native elements that have their own sense and adapts toward that, though often ignoring that sense or not requiring it to be relevant to the actual application of the new form. Another example might be ecrevisse > crayfish, where some spurious sense is achieved. Examples like muchas gracias > much grass, danke schoen > donkey shane are similar but more humorously meant. I remember once hearing that students of Christmas carols were deeply suspicious of "partridge in a pear tree" because, of course, perdrix is French for partridge. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Mon Apr 12 09:08:47 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 11:08:47 +0200 Subject: Linguistic term needed Message-ID: > Got an example? I'm not sure I have the proper term, but I'm thinking of the Chinese borrowing the word "America" as mei-guo (which has 2 similar syllables). And mei-guo, perhaps conscious choice, means roughly 'beautiful kingdom'. I suppose it's a kind of "loan-blend", but not the typical kind.<< Exactly the same with Chinese (Putonghua) Yingguo (England - ying1: hero, outstanding person), Deguo (Deutschland - de2: virtue), Faguo (France - fa3: law, method, mode etc.), Feiguo (Philippines - fei1: luxuriant), Munihei (Munich/M?nchen - mu4: adore, esteem, ni2: nun, hei1: black). This is very nice IMHO as the city arms of Munich show a black-dressed childlike monk ;-) There's the only flaw, though, that ni2 is a Buddhist nun. Also in German, we have Mailand (lit.: mayland) for Milano. Sorry, I couldn't be of any help with the term needed. Alfred From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Mon Apr 12 09:42:39 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 11:42:39 +0200 Subject: syllabic consonants Message-ID: >(Rood) I haven't been following this discussion very well, but the concept of syllabic consonants caught my eye. In the unpublished intro to optimality theory by Prince and Smolensky (partly published in "Optimality Theory in Phonology; A REader" ed. by John McCarthy, Blackwell, 2004), they discuss (pp. 7ff in the McCarthy book) a dialect of Berber which allows any consonant whatsoever to be the peak of a syllable. They cite words like"bddl" and "tftkt". Their references are to several papers by Francois Dell and Mohamed Elmedlaoui in the Journal of African Linguistics and the Journal of Afroasiatic Languages in 1985, 1988, and 1989.<< As for plosives (different from liquids or sibilants etc., not having a certain duration), they're much harder to produce together (i.e. at the very same time) with the accompaning sound of the vocal chords. In Chinese (Putonghua), there are many words consisting of syllabic consonants, e.g. /s/ and /sh/ (usually written differently according to the system of romanization respective: pinyin si or shi, W-G szu or shih, Gwoyeu romatzyh syh or shyy etc.) Two of many more: si4 - four, si3 - to die etc. For whomever interested: I once have put together a whole story in Chinese, composed entirely of one and (almost) the same monosyllabic-consonant word: if written in a romanized form or spoken, it's Putonghua version is totally incomprehensible. http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de/SHISHI.RXML http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de/AUSAMP.RXML Alfred From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Apr 12 11:50:45 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 06:50:45 -0500 Subject: Linguistic term needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I believe the term paranomasia fits the bill. At least, that's what I call it my work. This happens occasionally in Native America historically. I've seen a couple of examples in the Midwest. Michael On Sun, 11 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > > > > Does anybody have a proper linguistic term for the phenomenon > of borrowing a word from a foreign language in such a way as to > build a native construction that approximately chimes with the > phonological sequence of the original? I've been using "pun", > but I suspect there's a more appropriate term for it. > > Thanks! > Rory > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 12 15:50:52 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 09:50:52 -0600 Subject: Linguistic term needed In-Reply-To: <407A5C9F.2020404@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: > Exactly the same with Chinese ... Munihei (Munich/M?nchen - mu4: adore, > esteem, ni2: nun, hei1: black). This is very nice IMHO as the city arms > of Munich show a black-dressed childlike monk ;-) There's the only flaw, > though, that ni2 is a Buddhist nun. The French nickname for the Moingouena, "Moines" as in des Moines is taken to refer to monks, though the name has quite another basis in Miami-Illinois. I believe the meaning had to do with excrement-faced, though I don't recall the details of the analysis. This is presumably one of those insulting names bestowed by other groups. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 12 16:05:17 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:05:17 -0600 Subject: OP /the/ vs. /dhaN/ (Re: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > OP /the/ is actually pretty complicated in its usage. It can refer to a > standing inanimate thing, like a post or a house, but it is perhaps most > commonly used to refer to ordered sets of things, like (an armload of) > rocks, or both members of a set of paired body parts. Thus, one leg > would be /khe/, "elongate", but both legs would be /the/, "the set". One > eye would be /dhaN/, "globular", but both eyes would be /the/. A single > hand, however, is still /the/, I suppose because all the fingers > composing it are regarded as a set. Or maybe hands are just upright things? > I think that /the/ also refers to very precisely located points, vs. > /dhaN/, which implies a general area if referring to a location. This materializes in the temporal use of /the/ and /dhaN/, e.g., in 'when' uses. > And then we have a modal use of /the/, which in modern times is > understood to mean "evidently", and which in the Dorsey texts from the > 19th century seem to mean that the thing happened prior to the current > time or the current point in the narrative, in a way that seems possibly > perfective. I think Bob has argued that our the actually derives > historically from two different roots. As John says, /thaN/ seems to > simply refer to standing animates only. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 12 16:09:59 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:09:59 -0600 Subject: Fw: Fw: [Lexicog] new nosey word In-Reply-To: <000901c41fd9$7777f110$0c650945@JIMM> Message-ID: I think this was simply an accidental cross post from the sometimes far-ranging Lex[icography] List. As I have been having a hard time keeping my fingers from intermixing LexList and SiouanList as a I save letters, I think I understand the problem. John E. Koontz On Sun, 11 Apr 2004, Jimm GoodTracks wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "LONSKY,JIRI" > To: "Jimm GoodTracks" > Subject: Re: Fw: [Lexicog] new nosey word > > Yes, it is true. Some of our consonants are so called > "syllable-forming", r, l, m; ... From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Apr 12 16:24:14 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 11:24:14 -0500 Subject: Linguistic term needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: > > Exactly the same with Chinese ... Munihei (Munich/M?nchen - mu4: adore, > > esteem, ni2: nun, hei1: black). This is very nice IMHO as the city arms > > of Munich show a black-dressed childlike monk ;-) There's the only flaw, > > though, that ni2 is a Buddhist nun. > > The French nickname for the Moingouena, "Moines" as in des Moines is taken > to refer to monks, though the name has quite another basis in > Miami-Illinois. Right. There were no monks. David Costa explains this ethnonym is "Miami-Illinois Tribe Names," Proceedings of the Thirty-first Algonquian Conference (2000): 30-53. The Miami-Illinois term is /mooyiinkweena/ [mooyiingweena]. |mooyi-iinkwee-na| 'shit'-'face'-independent animate indefinite actor suffix. In a paper of mine on the place name "Missouri," published last year by the onomastic journal Names, I present a short history of the ethnonym /mooyiinkweena/. ("On the birthday and etymology of the place name Missouri," Names 51.2 (2003), 31-45. I believe the meaning had to do with excrement-faced, > though I don't recall the details of the analysis. This is presumably one > of those insulting names bestowed by other groups. > Eyup. Michael From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Apr 12 17:36:43 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 12:36:43 -0500 Subject: OP /the/ vs. /dhaN/ (Re: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved) Message-ID: >> OP /the/ is actually pretty complicated in its usage. It can refer to a >> standing inanimate thing, like a post or a house, but it is perhaps most >> commonly used to refer to ordered sets of things, like (an armload of) >> rocks, or both members of a set of paired body parts. Thus, one leg >> would be /khe/, "elongate", but both legs would be /the/, "the set". One >> eye would be /dhaN/, "globular", but both eyes would be /the/. A single >> hand, however, is still /the/, I suppose because all the fingers >> composing it are regarded as a set. > Or maybe hands are just upright things? Well, hands can come in various positions, and I suppose if the speaker wanted to emphasize a hand laid out flat they could use /khe/, or a fist might be /dhaN/. I'll try to check with the speakers on that. But the expected default for a hand in general without specifying anything about its position seems to be /the/. I don't think that the distinction of /the/ as 'vertical' and /khe/ as 'horizontal' really holds as such. I'm pretty sure I've seen more than one instance in Dorsey referring to a rope or swing hanging down from a tree, i.e. vertical, and the positional used for it was /khe/, not /the/. I think /khe/ basically means 'elongate', or perhaps 'superficial'. For a vertical thing to be /the/, I believe it has to be actually standing upright, not hanging. I don't know how it works in other Dhegihan languages, but in OP I think the essence of /the/ is 'ordered, founded thing', something set up like a post or house, something that obviously exists in defiance of entropy; or something that is right there, just so, at a specific spot; or a well-defined set of things that are tied together somehow. The latter usage nicely contrasts with /ge/, meaning 'scattered things' not linked together belonging to an unbounded set. >> I think that /the/ also refers to very precisely located points, vs. >> /dhaN/, which implies a general area if referring to a location. > This materializes in the temporal use of /the/ and /dhaN/, e.g., in 'when' > uses. Yes. My impression has been that /the/ was used for an instant of time, while /dhaN/ referred to a period. I never found enough examples to be quite sure about this though. Rory From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Apr 12 17:43:02 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 12:43:02 -0500 Subject: Linguistic term needed Message-ID: > I believe the term paranomasia fits the bill. At least, that's what I call > it my work. This happens occasionally in Native America historically. I've > seen a couple of examples in the Midwest. Thanks, Michael! Yow! What a mouthful! Rory Michael Mccafferty cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: Linguistic term needed owner-siouan at lists.c olorado.edu 04/12/2004 06:50 AM Please respond to siouan I believe the term paranomasia fits the bill. At least, that's what I call it my work. This happens occasionally in Native America historically. I've seen a couple of examples in the Midwest. Michael On Sun, 11 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > > > > Does anybody have a proper linguistic term for the phenomenon > of borrowing a word from a foreign language in such a way as to > build a native construction that approximately chimes with the > phonological sequence of the original? I've been using "pun", > but I suspect there's a more appropriate term for it. > > Thanks! > Rory > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 12 17:32:25 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 11:32:25 -0600 Subject: Misere (Re: Linguistic term needed) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Right. There were no monks. David Costa explains this ethnonym is > "Miami-Illinois Tribe Names," Proceedings of the Thirty-first Algonquian > Conference (2000): 30-53. > > The Miami-Illinois term is /mooyiinkweena/ [mooyiingweena]. > |mooyi-iinkwee-na| 'shit'-'face'-independent animate indefinite actor > suffix. > In a paper of mine on the place name "Missouri," published last year by > the onomastic journal Names, I present a short history of the ethnonym > /mooyiinkweena/. ("On the birthday and etymology of the place name > Missouri," Names 51.2 (2003), 31-45. Well, Michael, what do you think about the plausibility of Misre/Misera as nicknames for Ste. Genevive being paranomasia(dic?) (paranomadic?) for Missouri/Misuri? I realize St(e). Genevieve is further from the mouth of the Missouri than St. Louis, but I have the impression Missouri was used a territorial name for the trans-Mississippi (from your point of view), while Illinois (Ylineses) was used for the cis-Mississippi. (Surely Ste. Genevieve des Missouris would be too good for anyone to pass up? And if they failed to pass it up too many times in a row, they'd have to move to St. Louis.) Ste. Genevieve was *the* settlement in the trans-Mississippi or Missouri opposite Illinois for a while until Laclede refused to trust his merchanidise to a site that was flooded annually and established himself at St. Louis instead. I should mention that I've suggested and Michael has rejected the possibility that Pain Court might be a similiar handling of a compound like Pez-Caos (Peoria-Cahokia), both groups being near St. Louis at its founding, with the Peoria later absorbing the Cahokia, but I'm not sure the resemblance is all that close (less than Misere - Missouri even) and Michael points out that there don't seem to be other examples hyphenated names like this. Also, the Peoria were rather diffusely settled in a number of places, including Kaskaskia, and seem to have moved quite a bit and Cao is already associated with another settlement. Note that Cahokia (or Cao) was the settlement in Illinois more or less opposite St. Louis or Pain Court, while Kaskasia (Kas or aux Kas or Oka) was more or less opposite Ste. Genevieve or Misere. I haven't quite given up on just Pez as a source for Pain, with Court making the joke, but I know of no attestation Pez = St. Louis. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Apr 12 18:05:40 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 13:05:40 -0500 Subject: Linguistic term needed Message-ID: Bob wrote: > Got an example? I'm not sure I have the proper term, but I'm thinking of the > Chinese borrowing the word "America" as mei-guo (which has 2 similar syllables). > And mei-guo, perhaps conscious choice, means roughly 'beautiful kingdom'. I > suppose it's a kind of "loan-blend", but not the typical kind. That's a good one. What I had in mind was a way to describe the possibility that the first part of OP /ppahi(N)-z^ide/ is a "pun" on the first part of Fr. Pain Court, or that both of these might be puns on a name for Cahokia/St. Louis in some undetermined third language, without having to spell it out every time. Or actually, how about this one? I've noticed that words for metals in MVS languages are commonly compounds of 'metal' plus a color term. Thus, 'white metal' is silver, 'black metal' is iron, 'red metal' is copper, and 'yellow metal' is brass. (Gold is 'yellow silver', or 'yellow white metal'.) In OP, the word for lead is moNze tu, 'blue metal'. But in Dakota, lead is maNza su, which also means 'bullet'. Apparently the Dakota word was influenced by the Omaha term phonologically, but since the Omaha word for 'blue', tu, had shifted so far from the Dakota word tho, the Dakota reinterpreted the Omaha tu into Dakota su, meaning 'seed' or 'pellet'. Thus, it came out as 'metal pellet', which served them both as the substance 'lead', and for the bullets that are made of that substance. Rory "R. Rankin" To: Sent by: cc: owner-siouan at lists.c Subject: Re: Linguistic term needed olorado.edu 04/11/2004 10:44 PM Please respond to siouan Got an example? I'm not sure I have the proper term, but I'm thinking of the Chinese borrowing the word "America" as mei-guo (which has 2 similar syllables). And mei-guo, perhaps conscious choice, means roughly 'beautiful kingdom'. I suppose it's a kind of "loan-blend", but not the typical kind. Bob > Does anybody have a proper linguistic term for the phenomenon > of borrowing a word from a foreign language in such a way as to > build a native construction that approximately chimes with the > phonological sequence of the original? I've been using "pun", > but I suspect there's a more appropriate term for it. > > Thanks! > Rory > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 12 18:06:14 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 12:06:14 -0600 Subject: OP /the/ vs. /dhaN/ (Re: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > Yes. My impression has been that /the/ was used for an > instant of time, while /dhaN/ referred to a period. I never > found enough examples to be quite sure about this though. I guess one could check the texts for awathe and awadhaN and try to analize the context. /The/ is clearly the favored particle for the temporal 'when clause' conjunction, though I have seen /dhaN/ and even /khe/ in that capacity. The characterization of /the/ as representing situations contrary to entropy is interesting. I'll keep it in mind! From munro at ucla.edu Mon Apr 12 18:37:19 2004 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 11:37:19 -0700 Subject: Linguistic term needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This was a new one on me, so I searched online and found that "paronomasia" seems to be a more common spelling, for what that's worth. (The dictionary seems to think it means about the same as "punning".) A useful term. Pam Rory M Larson wrote: > > > > >>I believe the term paranomasia fits the bill. At least, that's what I >> >> >call > > >>it my work. This happens occasionally in Native America historically. >> >> >I've > > >>seen a couple of examples in the Midwest. >> >> > >Thanks, Michael! > >Yow! What a mouthful! > >Rory > > > > > > Michael Mccafferty > u> cc: > Sent by: Subject: Re: Linguistic term needed > owner-siouan at lists.c > olorado.edu > > > 04/12/2004 06:50 AM > Please respond to > siouan > > > > > > >I believe the term paranomasia fits the bill. At least, that's what I call >it my work. This happens occasionally in Native America historically. I've >seen a couple of examples in the Midwest. > >Michael > > > >On Sun, 11 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > > >> >> >>Does anybody have a proper linguistic term for the phenomenon >>of borrowing a word from a foreign language in such a way as to >>build a native construction that approximately chimes with the >>phonological sequence of the original? I've been using "pun", >>but I suspect there's a more appropriate term for it. >> >>Thanks! >>Rory >> >> >> >> >> > >"Those are my principles. >If you don't like them, >I have others." > >-Groucho Marx > > >"When I was born I was >so surprised that I didn't >talk for a year and a half." > >-Gracie Allen > > > > > > > -- ---- Pamela Munro Professor, Department of Linguistics, UCLA UCLA Box 951543 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 USA http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/linguistics/people/munro/munro.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 12 18:39:55 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 13:39:55 -0500 Subject: Linguistic term needed Message-ID: Hard to prove any sort of relation between ttu and su, but they're interesting nonetheless. The vowels are etymologically different but phonetically the same. In other words, Dakota [su] has proto-Siouan *u but Omaha [ttu] has Psi *o. They only coincide in the present. I still don't have a term for this. I hate cluttering up Linguistics with more Greek and Latin terms, but I gotta admit Michael's term sounds classy. Bob > Or actually, how about this one? I've noticed that words for metals in MVS languages are commonly compounds of 'metal' plus a color term. Thus, 'white metal' is silver, 'black metal' is iron, 'red metal' is copper, and 'yellow metal' is brass. (Gold is 'yellow silver', or 'yellow white metal'.) In OP, the word for lead is moNze tu, 'blue metal'. But in Dakota, lead is maNza su, which also means 'bullet'. Apparently the Dakota word was influenced by the Omaha term phonologically, but since the Omaha word for 'blue', tu, had shifted so far from the Dakota word tho, the Dakota reinterpreted the Omaha tu into Dakota su, meaning 'seed' or 'pellet'. Thus, it came out as 'metal pellet', which served them both as the substance 'lead', and for the bullets that are made of that substance. From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 12 18:51:51 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 13:51:51 -0500 Subject: OP /the/ vs. /dhaN/ Message-ID: I found 'hand' and 'bow' and some other nouns were always the same throughout the Dorsey texts. Other nouns can vary, but the use was derivational, not inflectional. In other words, a noun like tti 'house' would be tti=the but tti=dhaN wasn't just a squat house like a bark lodge or earth lodge, but rather 'the camp circle'. At least this was so with the Kaw analogs. So I don't think it pays to try to be too "scientific" in trying to analyze the semantic content of the different articles; the system is semi-arbitrary (for e.g. abstract nouns), like all such systems, no matter what. Dorsey does systematically divide the singular from the collective senses of the articles, with the articles doing a "round robin" in a collective context. He tries to justify this with his "bundle" or "heap" notions, but the results seem a bit half-assed at best. Bob >> OP /the/ is actually pretty complicated in its usage. It can refer >> to a standing inanimate thing, like a post or a house, but it is >> perhaps most commonly used to refer to ordered sets of things, like >> (an armload of) rocks, or both members of a set of paired body parts. >> Thus, one leg would be /khe/, "elongate", but both legs would be >> /the/, "the set". One eye would be /dhaN/, "globular", but both eyes >> would be /the/. A single hand, however, is still /the/, I suppose >> because all the fingers composing it are regarded as a set. > Or maybe hands are just upright things? Well, hands can come in various positions, and I suppose if From FurbeeL at missouri.edu Mon Apr 12 19:14:49 2004 From: FurbeeL at missouri.edu (Louanna Furbee) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 14:14:49 -0500 Subject: Fw: Fw: [Lexicog] new nosey word In-Reply-To: <000901c41fd9$7777f110$0c650945@JIMM> Message-ID: >Jimm, Think of the way we say "butter" - the second syllable has >only the "r" for a syllable center - the function a vowel would >usually have. "Little" works the same way, with the "l" as the >syllable center. Louanna >----- Original Message ----- >From: "LONSKY,JIRI" >To: "Jimm GoodTracks" >Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2004 3:15 AM >Subject: Re: Fw: [Lexicog] new nosey word > > >Yes, it is true. Some of our consonants are so called >"syllable-forming", r, l, m; practically their ability to stand in >for a wovel is related to the possibility to hold a length (like >rrrrrrr and llll, while in other consonants this is not possible >(b, p, k, t etc.) These then cannot be syllable forming. >I had an interesting conversation a while ago with a Czech man in >New mexico who brought to my attention close linguistic ties >between the Basque language and Czech. Amazing. >Hope you are well, >Jiri > >On Sat Apr 10 20:37:58 EDT 2004, Jimm GoodTracks > wrote: > >> Jiri! >> Is this true that Czech has words without vowels?? If so, how do >> they >> pronounce the words?? >> Jimm >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jan Ullrich" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 4:09 AM >> Subject: RE: [Lexicog] new nosey word >> Fritz >> >> In Czech, my native language, probably the longest word without >> vowels is >> ?scvrnkls?. It means something like ?you pushed it away with you >> finger?. >> I think most of the Czech vowel-less words usually have about >> three to five >> consonants, but quite frequently they can be combined into >> sentences, >> similar to the famous Czech tongue twister: >> >> Strc prst skrz krk. (Stick your finger through your throat.) >> >> In such Czech words it is indeed ?r? and ?l? that are >> phonetically >> vowel-like. >> Jan Ullrich >> Lakota Language Revitalization Project >> Indiana University, Bloomington >> www.lakotalanguage.org >> -- Prof. N. Louanna Furbee Department of Anthropology 107 Swallow Hall University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65211 USA Telephones: 573/882-9408 (office) 573/882-4731 (department) 573/446-0932 (home) 573/884-5450 (fax) E-mail: FurbeeL at missouri.edu From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Apr 12 21:11:36 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 16:11:36 -0500 Subject: Linguistic term needed In-Reply-To: <407AE1DF.1000306@ucla.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Pam, for the spelling update. I also searched online--at "paranomasia" and found a bunch of sites. But your spelling, with that nice -onom- makes the term look more like something used in linguistics than something used in Freud's clinic. Michael On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Pamela Munro wrote: > This was a new one on me, so I searched online and found that > "paronomasia" seems to be a more common spelling, for what that's worth. > (The dictionary seems to think it means about the same as "punning".) A > useful term. > > Pam > > > Rory M Larson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>I believe the term paranomasia fits the bill. At least, that's what I > >> > >> > >call > > > > > >>it my work. This happens occasionally in Native America historically. > >> > >> > >I've > > > > > >>seen a couple of examples in the Midwest. > >> > >> > > > >Thanks, Michael! > > > >Yow! What a mouthful! > > > >Rory > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael Mccafferty > > > u> cc: > > Sent by: Subject: Re: Linguistic term needed > > owner-siouan at lists.c > > olorado.edu > > > > > > 04/12/2004 06:50 AM > > Please respond to > > siouan > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I believe the term paranomasia fits the bill. At least, that's what I call > >it my work. This happens occasionally in Native America historically. I've > >seen a couple of examples in the Midwest. > > > >Michael > > > > > > > >On Sun, 11 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > > > > > > >> > >> > >>Does anybody have a proper linguistic term for the phenomenon > >>of borrowing a word from a foreign language in such a way as to > >>build a native construction that approximately chimes with the > >>phonological sequence of the original? I've been using "pun", > >>but I suspect there's a more appropriate term for it. > >> > >>Thanks! > >>Rory > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > >"Those are my principles. > >If you don't like them, > >I have others." > > > >-Groucho Marx > > > > > >"When I was born I was > >so surprised that I didn't > >talk for a year and a half." > > > >-Gracie Allen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > ---- > Pamela Munro > Professor, Department of Linguistics, UCLA > UCLA Box 951543 > Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 USA > http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/linguistics/people/munro/munro.htm > > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Mon Apr 12 21:10:05 2004 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 14:10:05 -0700 Subject: Linguistic term needed In-Reply-To: <407AE1DF.1000306@ucla.edu> Message-ID: Are these also paronomasia? I've heard that the Oneidas in Wisconsin refer to Swedes with the Oneida word for "sweet". And they used to refer to Lounsbury with their word for "lunch". --Wally From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Apr 12 21:46:04 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 16:46:04 -0500 Subject: Linguistic term needed In-Reply-To: <17051109.1081779005@[192.168.2.34]> Message-ID: I'd say so, Wally. Michael On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Wallace Chafe wrote: > Are these also paronomasia? I've heard that the Oneidas in Wisconsin refer > to Swedes with the Oneida word for "sweet". And they used to refer to > Lounsbury with their word for "lunch". > --Wally > > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Apr 12 21:45:02 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 16:45:02 -0500 Subject: Misere (Re: Linguistic term needed) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > Right. There were no monks. David Costa explains this ethnonym is > > "Miami-Illinois Tribe Names," Proceedings of the Thirty-first Algonquian > > Conference (2000): 30-53. > > > > The Miami-Illinois term is /mooyiinkweena/ [mooyiingweena]. > > |mooyi-iinkwee-na| 'shit'-'face'-independent animate indefinite actor > > suffix. > > > In a paper of mine on the place name "Missouri," published last year by > > the onomastic journal Names, I present a short history of the ethnonym > > /mooyiinkweena/. ("On the birthday and etymology of the place name > > Missouri," Names 51.2 (2003), 31-45. > > Well, Michael, what do you think about the plausibility of > Misre/Misera as nicknames for Ste. Genevive being > paranomasia(dic?) (paranomadic?) for Missouri/Misuri? Looks--and better, sounds--very promising. Quite plausible. I realize St(e). > Genevieve is further from the mouth of the Missouri than St. Louis, but I > have the impression Missouri was used a territorial name for the > trans-Mississippi (from your point of view), while Illinois (Ylineses) was > used for the cis-Mississippi. (Surely Ste. Genevieve des Missouris would > be too good for anyone to pass up? And if they failed to pass it up too > many times in a row, they'd have to move to St. Louis.) Ste. Genevieve > was *the* settlement in the trans-Mississippi or Missouri opposite > Illinois for a while until Laclede refused to trust his merchanidise to a > site that was flooded annually and established himself at St. Louis > instead. > > I should mention that I've suggested and Michael has rejected the > possibility that Pain Court might be a similiar handling of a compound > like Pez-Caos (Peoria-Cahokia), The spoiler, c'est moi. both groups being near St. Louis at its > founding, with the Peoria later absorbing the Cahokia, but I'm not sure > the resemblance is all that close (less than Misere - Missouri even) and > Michael points out that there don't seem to be other examples hyphenated > names like this. Actually, I'm pretty sure Dave noted that. But I would support him. Also, the Peoria were rather diffusely settled in a > number of places, including Kaskaskia, and seem to have moved quite a bit > and Cao is already associated with another settlement. Note that Cahokia > (or Cao) was the settlement in Illinois more or less opposite St. Louis or > Pain Court, while Kaskasia (Kas or aux Kas or Oka) was more or less > opposite Ste. Genevieve or Misere. > > I haven't quite given up on just Pez as a source for Pain, with Court > making the joke, but I know of no attestation Pez = St. Louis. I still like the /piikoor-/ 'muddy boat' theory. The sound of that sounds so much like 'pain court'. Michael From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Apr 12 22:12:09 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 17:12:09 -0500 Subject: Linguistic term needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One possible case of paronomasia in Indiana occurred when the Potawatomi apparently borrowed an established Miami name for Lake Maxinkukee. The Miami name is /meenkahsenahkiki/ 'it is big stone land' (referring to glacier-transported boulders). Phonetically, this is [meengahsenahkiki] The Potawatomi called the lake /m at gz@nk at kik/ 'at the shoe land;. (@ = schwa) The other one that comes to mind has a stranger story. The Miami name for the west fork of the White River in Indiana, a longlived term first collected by La Salle in the 1680s (though he never saw the river) and still used by the Miami in the early 1900s is /waapikami(i)ki/ '(it is) white water'. When the Unami settled in what is now Indiana in the last couple of decades of the 1700s, they referred to the river as /0:p:i:k:ami':k:a/ 'that which is a white house'. (0= open o). This would seem like an open-and-shut case of paronomasia. Problem is, the French were referring to the White River by 1748 as "la Maison blanche". Tricky. Michael > > On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Wallace Chafe wrote: > > > Are these also paronomasia? I've heard that the Oneidas in Wisconsin refer > > to Swedes with the Oneida word for "sweet". And they used to refer to > > Lounsbury with their word for "lunch". > > --Wally > > > > > > > > > > "Those are my principles. > If you don't like them, > I have others." > > -Groucho Marx > > > "When I was born I was > so surprised that I didn't > talk for a year and a half." > > -Gracie Allen > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Apr 12 22:32:53 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 17:32:53 -0500 Subject: Linguistic term needed Message-ID: > Hard to prove any sort of relation between ttu and su, but they're > interesting nonetheless. The vowels are etymologically different but > phonetically the same. In other words, Dakota [su] has proto-Siouan *u > but Omaha [ttu] has Psi *o. They only coincide in the present. It may be coincidence, but the resemblance seems striking to me. Most of the basic metal terms in OP, Osage (?) and Dakota seem to follow that 'metal' + color pattern where I could find them attested. But the Dakota term differs right on that one point,where they come up with a very different morphological and semantic expression that happens to match the Omaha term phonologically except for the one consonant: OP maNze ttu => Da maNza su "blue metal" "metal seed" "lead" "lead" or OP,Os. maNze maN "bullet" "metal arrow" "bullet" I'm guessing these words were adopted probably around the latter half of the 18th century, so the OP *o => *u sound shift should already have taken place. I'm supposing that Dakotan speakers picked up the term from OP speakers but misheard it in such a way as to apply paronomasia in making it their own. (There! I actually used the word!) Do we have the term for 'lead' (the metal) in any other MVS languages? It wasn't listed in La Flesche's Osage dictionary. Rory "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent by: cc: owner-siouan at lists.c Subject: RE: Linguistic term needed olorado.edu 04/12/2004 01:39 PM Please respond to siouan Hard to prove any sort of relation between ttu and su, but they're interesting nonetheless. The vowels are etymologically different but phonetically the same. In other words, Dakota [su] has proto-Siouan *u but Omaha [ttu] has Psi *o. They only coincide in the present. I still don't have a term for this. I hate cluttering up Linguistics with more Greek and Latin terms, but I gotta admit Michael's term sounds classy. Bob > Or actually, how about this one? I've noticed that words for metals in MVS languages are commonly compounds of 'metal' plus a color term. Thus, 'white metal' is silver, 'black metal' is iron, 'red metal' is copper, and 'yellow metal' is brass. (Gold is 'yellow silver', or 'yellow white metal'.) In OP, the word for lead is moNze tu, 'blue metal'. But in Dakota, lead is maNza su, which also means 'bullet'. Apparently the Dakota word was influenced by the Omaha term phonologically, but since the Omaha word for 'blue', tu, had shifted so far from the Dakota word tho, the Dakota reinterpreted the Omaha tu into Dakota su, meaning 'seed' or 'pellet'. Thus, it came out as 'metal pellet', which served them both as the substance 'lead', and for the bullets that are made of that substance. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 12 22:30:01 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 16:30:01 -0600 Subject: Linguistic term needed In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164E10@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > In OP, the word for lead is moNze tu, 'blue metal'. But in Dakota, lead > is maNza su, which also means 'bullet'. Apparently the Dakota word was > influenced by the Omaha term phonologically, but since the Omaha word > for 'blue', tu, had shifted so far from the Dakota word tho, the Dakota > reinterpreted the Omaha tu into Dakota su, meaning 'seed' or 'pellet'. > Thus, it came out as 'metal pellet', which served them both as the > substance 'lead', and for the bullets that are made of that substance. I'm not sure I see how this influence would work. It would be easier if it was within in a single language, but then the vowels aren't right, as you indicate. It's not clear that the sound change in question were so scheduled as to be useful. They could easily have been pre-bullet. OP vowel shifting is so transparent it's very hard to date. If you could do it with bullets, that would certainly be nice. Anoher problem: how would the Dakotas know what the Omahas were doing in this line and why would it influence them? In fact, given the size and complexity of the Dakota community I'd even expect some regional variation in forms like this within it. On the whole it seems simpler to assume completely independent development with coincidental vowels. I think OP has maNze-maN 'metal arrows', which also doesn't refer to lead. However, I've seen archaeological references to metal arrowheads being cut out of old kettles, and such, so perhaps a development from actual arrow heads to bullets is reflected in the OP term. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Apr 12 22:45:49 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 17:45:49 -0500 Subject: Linguistic term needed Message-ID: Wally wrote: > Are these also paronomasia? I've heard that the Oneidas in Wisconsin refer > to Swedes with the Oneida word for "sweet". And they used to refer to > Lounsbury with their word for "lunch". It sounds like this is even more complicated. First they applied paronomasia to conceptually translate the foreign name into English, and then they calqued that English pun into their own language. Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 12 22:41:43 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 16:41:43 -0600 Subject: Paronomastics (Re: Linguistic term needed) In-Reply-To: <17051109.1081779005@[192.168.2.34]> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Wallace Chafe wrote: > Are these also paronomasia? I've heard that the Oneidas in Wisconsin refer > to Swedes with the Oneida word for "sweet". And they used to refer to > Lounsbury with their word for "lunch". Sounds like they qualify to me. Miner lists the Winnebago word for rabbit (Was^c^iNk) in his Winnebago Field Lexicon with the gloss "Wisconsin Rapids." I think he comments that there might be a mishearing, but it sounds like either a passing joke or paronomasia - in essence a form of institutionalized joke. Another candidate, from Dakota: yuta 'to eat' for Ute in Buechel, with the comment, unsupported anywhere I've seen, that the Utes were perhaps considered to be canibals. I have a feeling that there are others of these I'm not remembering at the moment. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 12 22:52:03 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 16:52:03 -0600 Subject: Linguistic term needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Thanks, Pam, for the spelling update. I also searched online--at > "paranomasia" and found a bunch of sites. But your spelling, with that > nice -onom- makes the term look more like something used in linguistics > than something used in Freud's clinic. If I recall correctly, Greek 'name' is onoma (plural onomata, so a t-stem, not a feminine in -a or -e). The o is critical in certain laryngeal theory examples. The para prefix is Greek, too, and loses final a before a vowel, e.g., parody, parousia 'Presence' or, in a more linguistic vein, proparoyxtone 'stressed before the penultimate'. Webster says paronomasia < paronomazein 'to call with a slight change of name', defined as a play on words or, in short, a pun. Also listed, paronym, paronymous 'formed from a word in another language, having a form similar to that of a cognate foreign word'. I suppose 'cognate' here had better be understood as 'resemblant'! From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Tue Apr 13 04:28:57 2004 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 21:28:57 -0700 Subject: Bilingual paronomasia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rory is right. The Oneida words themselves don't sound anything like "sweet" or "lunch". An Oneida speaker would know that the Oneida word means "sweet" in English, and that "sweet" and "Swede" sound similar. Relevant to the second example is the fact that some Oneidas evidently referred to Lounsbury as Lunchberry, at least jokingly. Similar is a little Seneca story in which people went fishing for bass in a basswood tree. Again, the Seneca word for "bass" (the fish) makes a Seneca speaker think of the English word, which is then ambiguous between the fish and the tree. The story would make absolutely no sense without the bilingualism. Should we call this bilingual paronomasia? It all reminds me of something I wrote in Hinton and Munro, Studies in American Indian Languages (UCPL 131, 1998) on Polysynthetic Puns. One of my examples was based on the fact that Seneca o'gi' da:g can mean "I said 'dog'", where o'gi' is "I said" and da:g is western NY for "dog". But if the whole thing is run together as a single Seneca word, it means "I ate shit". People love to laugh at this kind of thing. --Wally > Wally wrote: >> Are these also paronomasia? I've heard that the Oneidas in Wisconsin > refer >> to Swedes with the Oneida word for "sweet". And they used to refer to >> Lounsbury with their word for "lunch". > > It sounds like this is even more complicated. First they > applied paronomasia to conceptually translate the foreign > name into English, and then they calqued that English pun > into their own language. > > Rory > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 13 17:44:42 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 11:44:42 -0600 Subject: Bilingual paronomasia In-Reply-To: <43383046.1081805337@[192.168.2.34]> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Wallace Chafe wrote: > Should we call this bilingual paronomasia? I was tempted to suggest proparonomasia and whatever the proper Greek form would be for "post"-paranomasia, depending on whether the word play occurred in the source language or the borrowing language. I haven't seen any example so far that involved both. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 13 17:53:16 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 11:53:16 -0600 Subject: Linguistic term needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: Actually, this paragraph was from Rory, which I knew, but I mangled the editing of the quotative particles: > On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > In OP, the word for lead is moNze tu, 'blue metal'. But in Dakota, lead > > is maNza su, which also means 'bullet'. Apparently the Dakota word was > > influenced by the Omaha term phonologically, ... From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Apr 14 04:39:09 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 23:39:09 -0500 Subject: Pigs Message-ID: I'm wondering about an article I understand Alan Hartley wrote relating the "kukusi" term for 'pig' to French cochon (sp?). Bob told me about this last summer, but I seem to have misplaced the reference. Could someone point me to it again? Thanks! Rory From rankin at ku.edu Wed Apr 14 13:34:24 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 08:34:24 -0500 Subject: Pigs Message-ID: It was Allan Taylor at CU. I don't remember where he published it, but no doubt someone will. A large number of us contributed data for it. Bob > I'm wondering about an article I understand Alan Hartley > wrote relating the "kukusi" term for 'pig' to French > cochon (sp?). Bob told me about this last summer, but > I seem to have misplaced the reference. Could someone > point me to it again? > > Thanks! > Rory From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Apr 14 14:06:26 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 09:06:26 -0500 Subject: Pigs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rory M Larson wrote: > I'm wondering about an article I understand Alan Hartley > wrote relating the "kukusi" term for 'pig' to French > cochon (sp?). It wasn't me, though I might have pointed out Ojibway ko:kko:s^ is perhaps from Fr. cochon (though frankly, I don't even remember having done that!) Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 14 17:38:37 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:38:37 -0600 Subject: Pigs In-Reply-To: <003801c42225$464b97b0$1ab5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > It was Allan Taylor at CU. I don't remember where he published it, but no doubt > someone will. A large number of us contributed data for it. It is not in the Siouan bib page at http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/siouan_language.html that John Boyle maintains. Search the Web with Allan Taylor pig cochon, or consult the MSA annual indexes and/or Bibliographie Linguistique, the last two being the more reliable technique, but not always the fastest. Allan also has an article on horse terms, I believe. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Apr 14 17:44:41 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:44:41 -0500 Subject: Pigs Message-ID: Oops! Sorry, Alan. I thought I had remembered the name. Apologies to all for another case of misattribution! Rory > It was Allan Taylor at CU. I don't remember where he published it, but no doubt > someone will. A large number of us contributed data for it. > > Bob >> I'm wondering about an article I understand Alan Hartley >> wrote relating the "kukusi" term for 'pig' to French >> cochon (sp?). Bob told me about this last summer, but >> I seem to have misplaced the reference. Could someone >> point me to it again? >> >> Thanks! >> Rory From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Wed Apr 14 17:50:20 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:50:20 -0600 Subject: Pigs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Allan's article was published in Anthropological Linguistics 32 (1990):187-210. It's entitled "A European Loanword of Early Date in Eastern North America. He says it's the most wide-spread loanword on the continent. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > > It was Allan Taylor at CU. I don't remember where he published it, but no doubt > > someone will. A large number of us contributed data for it. > > It is not in the Siouan bib page at > http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/siouan_language.html that John Boyle > maintains. > > Search the Web with Allan Taylor pig cochon, or consult the MSA annual > indexes and/or Bibliographie Linguistique, the last two being the more > reliable technique, but not always the fastest. Allan also has an article > on horse terms, I believe. > From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Wed Apr 14 18:05:02 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:05:02 -0600 Subject: buffalo, coyote Message-ID: John thought Allan Taylor had also written a "horse" paper, but I don't think so. He has one on "buffalo" in the southeastern languages in IJAL 42 (1976), pp.165-66 and one on coyote (actually on the wolf/dog/coyote as a symbol of lust among Plains tribes) in the 1985 IJAL issue dedicated to Eric Hamp (pp597-599). David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 14 18:33:28 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:33:28 -0600 Subject: buffalo, coyote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > John thought Allan Taylor had also written a "horse" paper, but I don't > think so. Maybe I'm misrembering who wrote it? Or maybe I just remember some general comments made in a class? From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Apr 14 21:50:47 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 16:50:47 -0500 Subject: Pigs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for the information. What's interesting, at least to me, about this is that the phonologically salient part of the French word for pig, "cochon," that would be the source of these borrowings is /$o~/, not /ku$/ ($ = sh, o~ = nasalized /o/). Maybe the first Frenchmen who used the word with native folks said it slowly. Michael On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > > Allan's article was published in Anthropological Linguistics 32 > (1990):187-210. It's entitled "A European Loanword of Early Date in > Eastern North America. He says it's the most wide-spread loanword on the > continent. > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > > > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > > > It was Allan Taylor at CU. I don't remember where he published it, but no doubt > > > someone will. A large number of us contributed data for it. > > > > It is not in the Siouan bib page at > > http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/siouan_language.html that John Boyle > > maintains. > > > > Search the Web with Allan Taylor pig cochon, or consult the MSA annual > > indexes and/or Bibliographie Linguistique, the last two being the more > > reliable technique, but not always the fastest. Allan also has an article > > on horse terms, I believe. > > > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From are2 at buffalo.edu Thu Apr 15 04:42:35 2004 From: are2 at buffalo.edu (are2 at buffalo.edu) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 00:42:35 -0400 Subject: OP /the/ vs. /dhaN/ (Re: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I can't resist putting in my 2 cents about articles. >> OP /the/ is actually pretty complicated in its usage. It can > refer to a > >> standing inanimate thing, like a post or a house, but it is > perhaps most > >> commonly used to refer to ordered sets of things, like (an armload > of) > >> rocks, or both members of a set of paired body parts. Thus, one > leg > >> would be /khe/, "elongate", but both legs would be /the/, "the > set". One > >> eye would be /dhaN/, "globular", but both eyes would be /the/. A > single > >> hand, however, is still /the/, I suppose because all the fingers > >> composing it are regarded as a set. Ok, I am not sure about how these were elicited but the pairs of body parts associated with a given individual take the singular article in most of the data I have seen produced naturally. Ex. Zhibe kHe abita-a. > > Or maybe hands are just upright things? > > Well, hands can come in various positions, and I suppose if > the speaker wanted to emphasize a hand laid out flat they could > use /khe/, or a fist might be /dhaN/. I'll try to check with > the speakers on that. But the expected default for a hand in > general without specifying anything about its position seems > to be /the/. > > I don't think that the distinction of /the/ as 'vertical' > and /khe/ as 'horizontal' really holds as such. I'm pretty > sure I've seen more than one instance in Dorsey referring to > a rope or swing hanging down from a tree, i.e. vertical, and > the positional used for it was /khe/, not /the/. I think /khe/ > basically means 'elongate', or perhaps 'superficial'. For a > vertical thing to be /the/, I believe it has to be actually > standing upright, not hanging. > > I don't know how it works in other Dhegihan languages, but in > OP I think the essence of /the/ is 'ordered, founded thing', > something set up like a post or house, something that > obviously exists in defiance of entropy; or something that is > right there, just so, at a specific spot; or a well-defined > set of things that are tied together somehow. The latter > usage nicely contrasts with /ge/, meaning 'scattered things' > not linked together belonging to an unbounded set. > > > >> I think that /the/ also refers to very precisely located points, > vs. > >> /dhaN/, which implies a general area if referring to a location. > > > This materializes in the temporal use of /the/ and /dhaN/, e.g., in > 'when' > > uses. > > Yes. My impression has been that /the/ was used for an > instant of time, while /dhaN/ referred to a period. I never > found enough examples to be quite sure about this though. > > Rory > > > From are2 at buffalo.edu Thu Apr 15 15:23:42 2004 From: are2 at buffalo.edu (are2 at buffalo.edu) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 11:23:42 -0400 Subject: OP /the/ vs. /dhaN/ (Re: Dakota: verbs with 'hill' involved) In-Reply-To: <1082004155.407e12bb9105c@mail4.buffalo.edu> Message-ID: Whoops, I have a bandaid on one finger and accidentally hit send somehow too early. Sorry. Below is the whole message. > >> OP /the/ is actually pretty complicated in its usage. It can > > refer to a > > >> standing inanimate thing, like a post or a house, but it is > > perhaps most > > >> commonly used to refer to ordered sets of things, like (an > armload > > of) > > >> rocks, or both members of a set of paired body parts. Thus, one > > leg > > >> would be /khe/, "elongate", but both legs would be /the/, "the > > set". One > > >> eye would be /dhaN/, "globular", but both eyes would be /the/. > A single hand, however, is still /the/, I suppose because all the fingers > > >> composing it are regarded as a set. > Ok, I am not sure about how these were elicited but the pairs of body parts associated with a given individual have taken the singular article in most of the data I have seen produced naturally. Ex. Zhibe kHe abita-a. leg the touch-Femal command 'Touch your leg(s).' This is ambiguous between singular and plural. I'll try to elicit some of these in case the times I've heard have all somehow been singular. (this is possible. I can't recall purposely eliciting these.) ...> > I don't think that the distinction of /the/ as 'vertical' > > and /khe/ as 'horizontal' really holds as such. I'm pretty > > sure I've seen more than one instance in Dorsey referring to > > a rope or swing hanging down from a tree, i.e. vertical, and > > the positional used for it was /khe/, not /the/. I think /khe/ > > basically means 'elongate', or perhaps 'superficial'. For a > > vertical thing to be /the/, I believe it has to be actually > > standing upright, not hanging. I think this is easiliest explained through a concept of canonical position. Similar to hanging ropes, pencils standing up in a jar or in your hand still get kHe. It is their at rest position or how they are canonically conceptualized in Omaha. SImilarly a cup on its side still gets tHe and not kHe. > > I don't know how it works in other Dhegihan languages, but in > > OP I think the essence of /the/ is 'ordered, founded thing', > > something set up like a post or house, something that > > obviously exists in defiance of entropy; or something that is > > right there, just so, at a specific spot; or a well-defined > > set of things that are tied together somehow. The latter > > usage nicely contrasts with /ge/, meaning 'scattered things' > > not linked together belonging to an unbounded set. Not quite so simple as ordered/bounded. Ge is used as the plural of tHe type objects even when they are not scattered and are bounded. Ex. NiuthatoN ge 'the cups' This set of plural cups can be well-ordered and bounded. It is the opposition of two articles which is used to create a sense of plurality rather than order/disorder. Also, I am not in support of a defiance of entropy account. This seems great for massive objects (houses, trees, poles) but what about cups? Do these defy entropy more than a pencil or blackboard (kHe) or a table or flower (dhoN)? > > Yes. My impression has been that /the/ was used for an > > instant of time, while /dhaN/ referred to a period. I never > > found enough examples to be quite sure about this though. Hmmm. I like this but have to offer a counterexample: Hidhai tHe-di 'On Saturday' This is not very instantaneous or particularly well-defined. It is bounded but refers to a general period. My jury is still out on the time pattern. -Ardis All of my above info/examples/analysis are from chapter 3.6.2 (the inanimate articles) of my (will the agony ever end? in progress) dissertation and have been understood through the patience and kindness of the Elders I work with (esp. Mrs. Alice Saunsoci and Mrs. Marcella Cayou). Misanalysis is my responsibility. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Apr 15 18:58:17 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 12:58:17 -0600 Subject: Lakota Language Consortium site & Jan Ullrich's Lakota site Message-ID: Repost from SSILA Bulletin 208. I apologize for the repost, because many members of the list will also be members of SSILA. However, a substantial number are not, and many of them would be specifically interested in this article. More information on SSILA at http://www.ssila.org. __________________________________________________________________________ * Lakota Language Consortium site & Jan Ullrich's Lakota site ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "Many Voices, One Language" is the new website of the Lakota Language Consortium, a group of educational institutions, communities and indi- viduals committed to halting the loss of the Lakota language on the northern plains. Developed with technical assistance from the American Indian Studies Research Institute at Indiana University, the LLC site has pages devoted to language loss (showing the results of recent alarming surveys), revitalization strategies, the structure of the LLC initiative, and language materials development. There are also links to several other sites, including the Lakota Language Show that is broadcast weekly on KILI-FM. The URL is: http://www.lakotalanguage.org The language materials being developed by LLC (samples are shown of a multimedia lesson and of a K-3 level textbook) draw on the expertise of the Czech linguist, Jan Ullrich, who also maintains his own -- very impressive -- Lakota/Dakota/Assiniboine site ("Lakhota Language"): http://www.inext.cz/siouan Ullrich's site offers a detailed on-line textbook of Lakota and a number of text files, most with a word-by-word dictionary lookup and some with paragraph-by-paragraph sound files. Texts include samples from George Bushotter's and Ella Deloria's collections, among others. From Rgraczyk at aol.com Fri Apr 16 15:55:32 2004 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Randolph Graczyk) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 11:55:32 EDT Subject: Paronomastics (Re: Linguistic term needed) Message-ID: The Crow name for Hardin, Montana (town adjacent to the reservation) is chichu'che 'hard'. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Fri Apr 16 20:52:40 2004 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Q.) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 15:52:40 -0500 Subject: Paronomastics (Re: Linguistic term needed) In-Reply-To: <12e.3f890124.2db15bf4@aol.com> Message-ID: Osages used to be fond of using we'hice 'far' in English sentences with exaggerated intonation on the we- part: "way-hice far". Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of Rgraczyk at aol.com Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 10:56 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Paronomastics (Re: Linguistic term needed) The Crow name for Hardin, Montana (town adjacent to the reservation) is chichu'che 'hard'. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sun Apr 18 14:07:46 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 09:07:46 -0500 Subject: Sorry, new term is worn out. Message-ID: It's finally happened. My university's " SPAM SCORER software as declared any message with "paronomastics" in the subject line to be "spam" and assigned it a score of four stars (see below). Apparently it thinks you're trying to sell me drugs, a new mortgage or potency pills. I caught it by accident as I usually delete all spam scored messages en masse when returning from out of town. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carolyn Q." To: Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 3:52 PM Subject: [Spam:***** SpamScore] RE: Paronomastics (Re: Linguistic term needed) From rankin at ku.edu Sun Apr 18 14:11:00 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 09:11:00 -0500 Subject: [Spam:****** SpamScore] Re: Paronomastics (Re: Linguistic term needed) Message-ID: Whoops, it got Randy too, but his got 6 stars, probably because of the larger font! See, size DOES matter! Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 10:55 AM Subject: [Spam:****** SpamScore] Re: Paronomastics (Re: Linguistic term needed) > The Crow name for Hardin, Montana (town adjacent to the reservation) is > chichu'che 'hard'. > > Randy > From rankin at ku.edu Sun Apr 18 14:33:50 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 09:33:50 -0500 Subject: Pigs Message-ID: I don't think kkokko$a, etc. are based directly on "cochon". A more colloquial reduplicated form is favored. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Mccafferty" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 4:50 PM Subject: Re: Pigs > Thanks for the information. > > What's interesting, at least to me, about this is that the phonologically > salient part of the French word for pig, "cochon," that would be the > source of these borrowings is /$o~/, not /ku$/ ($ = sh, o~ = nasalized > /o/). Maybe the first Frenchmen who used the word with native folks said > it slowly. > > Michael > > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > > > > > Allan's article was published in Anthropological Linguistics 32 > > (1990):187-210. It's entitled "A European Loanword of Early Date in > > Eastern North America. He says it's the most wide-spread loanword on the > > continent. > > > > David S. Rood > > Dept. of Linguistics > > Univ. of Colorado > > 295 UCB > > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > > USA > > rood at colorado.edu > > > > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > > > > It was Allan Taylor at CU. I don't remember where he published it, but no doubt > > > > someone will. A large number of us contributed data for it. > > > > > > It is not in the Siouan bib page at > > > http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/siouan_language.html that John Boyle > > > maintains. > > > > > > Search the Web with Allan Taylor pig cochon, or consult the MSA annual > > > indexes and/or Bibliographie Linguistique, the last two being the more > > > reliable technique, but not always the fastest. Allan also has an article > > > on horse terms, I believe. > > > > > > > > > > > "Those are my principles. > If you don't like them, > I have others." > > -Groucho Marx > > > "When I was born I was > so surprised that I didn't > talk for a year and a half." > > -Gracie Allen > > From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Sun Apr 18 14:48:44 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 15:48:44 +0100 Subject: Pigs Message-ID: In a pig's eye, say I. I be forms of caballo are more widespread. They crop up in Pidgin Delaware, Wichita, and just about any language whose speakers interacted most closely with hispanophones, including Karankawa. In fact, fors of the word for 'horse' are the single Karankawa ter that occurs in the greatest number of Karankawa sources. Anthony >>> rood at spot.Colorado.EDU 14/04/2004 18:50:20 >>> Allan's article was published in Anthropological Linguistics 32 (1990):187-210. It's entitled "A European Loanword of Early Date in Eastern North America. He says it's the most wide-spread loanword on the continent. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > > It was Allan Taylor at CU. I don't remember where he published it, but no doubt > > someone will. A large number of us contributed data for it. > > It is not in the Siouan bib page at > http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/siouan_language.html that John Boyle > maintains. > > Search the Web with Allan Taylor pig cochon, or consult the MSA annual > indexes and/or Bibliographie Linguistique, the last two being the more > reliable technique, but not always the fastest. Allan also has an article > on horse terms, I believe. > From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Sun Apr 18 14:50:37 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 15:50:37 +0100 Subject: Pigs Message-ID: I forgot to mention that they also occur in Alsea and Siuslaw, as /tawayo/ (the first Europeans on that coast were explorers such as Juan de Heceta). Other languages of the area used a form of Chiook Jargon /kyutan/, itself a derivative of an older word for dog. Anthony >>> rood at spot.Colorado.EDU 14/04/2004 18:50:20 >>> Allan's article was published in Anthropological Linguistics 32 (1990):187-210. It's entitled "A European Loanword of Early Date in Eastern North America. He says it's the most wide-spread loanword on the continent. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > > It was Allan Taylor at CU. I don't remember where he published it, but no doubt > > someone will. A large number of us contributed data for it. > > It is not in the Siouan bib page at > http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/siouan_language.html that John Boyle > maintains. > > Search the Web with Allan Taylor pig cochon, or consult the MSA annual > indexes and/or Bibliographie Linguistique, the last two being the more > reliable technique, but not always the fastest. Allan also has an article > on horse terms, I believe. > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Apr 18 16:00:45 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:00:45 -0500 Subject: Sorry, new term is worn out. In-Reply-To: <005201c4254e$9b8889f0$10b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Excellent! And we can come with even weirder words. >:-) On Sun, 18 Apr 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > It's finally happened. My university's " SPAM SCORER software as declared any > message with "paronomastics" in the subject line to be "spam" and assigned it a > score of four stars (see below). Apparently it thinks you're trying to sell me > drugs, a new mortgage or potency pills. I caught it by accident as I usually > delete all spam scored messages en masse when returning from out of town. > > Bob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Carolyn Q." > To: > Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 3:52 PM > > Subject: [Spam:***** SpamScore] RE: Paronomastics (Re: Linguistic term needed) > > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Apr 18 16:04:37 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:04:37 -0500 Subject: Pigs In-Reply-To: <018201c42552$3e794f20$10b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Right. Found and read the article. Nice article. The Central Algonquian borrowing appears to have come from what Taylor terms a "simplex" form of "cochon"--"coche," and then he suggests that the borrowing came directly from a French pig call in the form of "co-coche". I don't know about that but I've sent out the question to native informants. (Species not specified) Michael On Sun, 18 Apr 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > I don't think kkokko$a, etc. are based directly on "cochon". A more colloquial > reduplicated form is favored. > > Bob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Mccafferty" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 4:50 PM > Subject: Re: Pigs > > > > Thanks for the information. > > > > What's interesting, at least to me, about this is that the phonologically > > salient part of the French word for pig, "cochon," that would be the > > source of these borrowings is /$o~/, not /ku$/ ($ = sh, o~ = nasalized > > /o/). Maybe the first Frenchmen who used the word with native folks said > > it slowly. > > > > Michael > > > > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > > > > > > > > Allan's article was published in Anthropological Linguistics 32 > > > (1990):187-210. It's entitled "A European Loanword of Early Date in > > > Eastern North America. He says it's the most wide-spread loanword on the > > > continent. > > > > > > David S. Rood > > > Dept. of Linguistics > > > Univ. of Colorado > > > 295 UCB > > > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > > > USA > > > rood at colorado.edu > > > > > > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > > > > > > > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > > > > > It was Allan Taylor at CU. I don't remember where he published it, but > no doubt > > > > > someone will. A large number of us contributed data for it. > > > > > > > > It is not in the Siouan bib page at > > > > http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/siouan_language.html that John Boyle > > > > maintains. > > > > > > > > Search the Web with Allan Taylor pig cochon, or consult the MSA annual > > > > indexes and/or Bibliographie Linguistique, the last two being the more > > > > reliable technique, but not always the fastest. Allan also has an article > > > > on horse terms, I believe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Those are my principles. > > If you don't like them, > > I have others." > > > > -Groucho Marx > > > > > > "When I was born I was > > so surprised that I didn't > > talk for a year and a half." > > > > -Gracie Allen > > > > > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Sun Apr 18 22:53:18 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 17:53:18 -0500 Subject: Pigs Message-ID: I found it too. Yes, it is a nice article. Thanks for the reference, everybody! Taylor actually suggests two different etymons: a Dutch hog call Kus^-kus^kus^, and a dialectal French form of cocoche or coucouche. The former version seems to have first been adopted in (Munsee) Delaware, then by all the northern Iroquoians, and then passed on to Micmac in the north and Shawnee in the south. This is what he calls the "Northeast" group, which uses /kos(^)kos(^)/ type forms that he calls "fully reduplicated". Excluding a New England /piks/ area (Maliseet, Penobscot, Western Abenaki and Narragansett) just about everything else south to northern Georgia and Alabama, Tennesee and Arkansas, west to the eastern Great Plains, and north clear to the Arctic uses /ko(h)kos(^)(@)/ type forms which he calls "incompletely reduplicated". These he attributes to cocoche or coucouche, but thinks it still must have been in the form of a hog call, since the French article doesn't appear in it. I'm not entirely convinced that there needs to be a separate original for the incompletely reduplicated forms. The basic words seem to be the same except that the first sibilant is lost or degraded. There seems to be some evidence of reinterpretation of the reduplication: Winnebago has something like xkuuxkuis^e, with an additional fricative tacked onto the front (perhaps because it didn't like reduplicating syllables that ended in a consonant?) And Iowa/Oto had two forms recorded: gohgo%a and an archaic go%go%a (here I'm using % for thorn, which is what *s turned into in IO). Perhaps the fully reduplicated form is the original international form, and the incompletely reduplicated form is due to native reformatting, plus later influence from French cocoche? Rory Michael Mccafferty cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: Pigs owner-siouan at lists.c olorado.edu 04/18/2004 11:04 AM Please respond to siouan Right. Found and read the article. Nice article. The Central Algonquian borrowing appears to have come from what Taylor terms a "simplex" form of "cochon"--"coche," and then he suggests that the borrowing came directly from a French pig call in the form of "co-coche". I don't know about that but I've sent out the question to native informants. (Species not specified) Michael On Sun, 18 Apr 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > I don't think kkokko$a, etc. are based directly on "cochon". A more colloquial > reduplicated form is favored. > > Bob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Mccafferty" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 4:50 PM > Subject: Re: Pigs > > > > Thanks for the information. > > > > What's interesting, at least to me, about this is that the phonologically > > salient part of the French word for pig, "cochon," that would be the > > source of these borrowings is /$o~/, not /ku$/ ($ = sh, o~ = nasalized > > /o/). Maybe the first Frenchmen who used the word with native folks said > > it slowly. > > > > Michael > > > > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > > > > > > > > Allan's article was published in Anthropological Linguistics 32 > > > (1990):187-210. It's entitled "A European Loanword of Early Date in > > > Eastern North America. He says it's the most wide-spread loanword on the > > > continent. > > > > > > David S. Rood > > > Dept. of Linguistics > > > Univ. of Colorado > > > 295 UCB > > > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > > > USA > > > rood at colorado.edu > > > > > > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > > > > > > > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > > > > > It was Allan Taylor at CU. I don't remember where he published it, but > no doubt > > > > > someone will. A large number of us contributed data for it. > > > > > > > > It is not in the Siouan bib page at > > > > http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/siouan_language.html that John Boyle > > > > maintains. > > > > > > > > Search the Web with Allan Taylor pig cochon, or consult the MSA annual > > > > indexes and/or Bibliographie Linguistique, the last two being the more > > > > reliable technique, but not always the fastest. Allan also has an article > > > > on horse terms, I believe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Those are my principles. > > If you don't like them, > > I have others." > > > > -Groucho Marx > > > > > > "When I was born I was > > so surprised that I didn't > > talk for a year and a half." > > > > -Gracie Allen > > > > > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 19 04:52:54 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 22:52:54 -0600 Subject: Pigs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > And Iowa/Oto had two forms recorded: gohgo%a and an archaic go%go%a > (here I'm using % for thorn, which is what *s turned into in IO). > Perhaps the fully reduplicated form is the original international form, > and the incompletely reduplicated form is due to native reformatting, > plus later influence from French cocoche? For what it's worth, IO has two paths by which earlier *sk develops. One is %k (or ^tk or 0k - theta + k). The other is hk. So you see both %ka and hka for *ska 'white'. My guess would be that IO originally had gosgosa, bearing mind that IO bdj^g are just the way simple (unaspirated) p^tck are written there, i.e., *koskosa. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 19 05:01:43 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 23:01:43 -0600 Subject: P-ronomastics (Re: Linguistic term needed) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This got lost in a time warp when I set it asside to verify a point. On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > It sounds like this is even more complicated. First they applied > paronomasia to conceptually translate the foreign name into English, and > then they calqued that English pun into their own language. Touche. This seems correct. Though I'm not sure whether we've been carefully distinguishing at what stage the pun occured. Missouri > Misere would hypothetically involve a pun on a loanword, as does moine (well, loan > truncation > pun ready made). Meiguo seems to involve a loan and then a pun, or a pun by way of adapting the phonology. Some of the other examples from Alfred's list seem more like the initial process here being elaborated upon with increasing ingenuity. In a way I think the Chinese cases are cases of using logographs to implement syllable spelling. Paincourt > PpahiN-something would seem to involve borrowing what might already be some form of pun, but not taken as such, into OP and then modifying it via a pun or at least "a slight modification." It occurs to me that Paincourt would come out more or less ppaiN kkudha or 'hair friend' if simply borrowed. Maybe personifying the 'friend' as Lewis - who would have been officially posing as a friend in his capacity as agent - led to the next step, through taking the hair as worth remarking on. We should also not lose track of the possibility that the Omaha-Ponca form came not straight from French, but via Kaw, Osage, and IO, as these groups were between the Omaha and St. Louis. I haven't heard of a name for St. Louis in any language but Omaha-Ponca (and, indirectly, in Blackfoot), but I assume that at once point any language spoken in the Missouri- Mississippi-Ohio drainages had a name for the place. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 19 05:05:24 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 23:05:24 -0600 Subject: A Couple of Suggestions as to Form of Postings Message-ID: It's a good idea to delete as much of the history of a letter off the end as possible when responding to it. You should generally retain only the parts you are specifically commenting on, with as much additional background as you think necessary to clarify matters. At least any elaborate signatures, and, as far as the previous history of a letter, you can rely on the archiving system to thread together things with the same subject line. This reduces the load on the archives and on downloads. If the subject changes, it's a good idea to change the Subject-line, perhaps initially including the original title with the rubric (was ...). John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Apr 19 13:16:51 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 08:16:51 -0500 Subject: Pigs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > > > > I found it too. Yes, it is a nice article. Thanks for > the reference, everybody! > > Taylor actually suggests two different etymons: a Dutch > hog call Kus^-kus^kus^, and a dialectal French form of > cocoche or coucouche. Problem is, cocoche or coucouche, or even coche appear to be unattested. "Cochon" is the French term. There's also an old term for a coach gate at a castle or manor house "porte-cochere". Here "porte" is "door". However, a modern French speaker would probably interpret that "porte" as "carry". So, "porte-cochere," just "portefeuille" or "portemanteau" sounds like something that carries pigs. Pig humor. This message segues into the round-up of pig calls known in French Canada. Michael From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Apr 19 13:23:25 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 08:23:25 -0500 Subject: French Canadian pig calls Message-ID: This is from Robert Vezina, an expert in New World French. ========================================================== Le cri pour appeler le cochon... Au Qu?bec, il a y traditionnellement plusieurs de ces cris, mais je ne crois pas qu'il y ait qqchose comme co-coche ( The cry for calling pigs...In Quebec, there are several of these cries traditionally, but I don't believe there's anything like "co-coche" On a kyo-kyo-kyo (le plus fr?quent, je crois) et kyok-kyok. Aussi : kya-kya- kya. Aussi : kyak-kyak. Aussi : kyou-kyou-kyou (assez fr?quent). Dans quelques localit?s, on crie : kyouche-kyouche, ou : kyouk-kyouk. Aussi : tou-tou-tou. Il en reste d'autres, mais plus marginaux. There is kyo-kyo-kyo (the most common, I think) and kyok-kyok. Also: kya-kya- kya. And: kyak-kyak. Also: kyou-kyou-kyou (rather frequent). In a few places, they shout: kyouche-kyouche, or: kyouk-kyouk. Also: tou-tou-tou. There are some others but they are more marginal. From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 19 15:18:44 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 10:18:44 -0500 Subject: Pigs Message-ID: The French linguistic atlas (ALF) is the place to look. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Mccafferty [mailto:mmccaffe at indiana.edu] Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 8:17 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Pigs On Sun, 18 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > > > > I found it too. Yes, it is a nice article. Thanks for > the reference, everybody! > > Taylor actually suggests two different etymons: a Dutch > hog call Kus^-kus^kus^, and a dialectal French form of cocoche or > coucouche. Problem is, cocoche or coucouche, or even coche appear to be unattested. "Cochon" is the French term. There's also an old term for a coach gate at a castle or manor house "porte-cochere". Here "porte" is "door". However, a modern French speaker would probably interpret that "porte" as "carry". So, "porte-cochere," just "portefeuille" or "portemanteau" sounds like something that carries pigs. Pig humor. This message segues into the round-up of pig calls known in French Canada. Michael From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 19 15:26:10 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 10:26:10 -0500 Subject: A Couple of Suggestions as to Form of Postings Message-ID: > If the subject changes, it's a good idea to change the Subject-line, perhaps initially including the original title with the rubric (was ...). Yes, with the proliferation of spam filters, some very sophisticated, it's good not to repeat the same subj. line too often. I think that's one of the keys that gets the message labeled "spam". I think anything that is addressed to me with a subject line that contains the words, "mortgage" or "viagra", "confidential business deal" or "enlargement", etc. gets trashed pretty much automatically. Bob From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Mon Apr 19 15:21:54 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 16:21:54 +0100 Subject: just to make a pig's ear of it Message-ID: Folks: In response to Michael's message - in Yorkshire, /ku4/, where $ is the postalveolar sibilant, is a call heard on farms, but is used for summoning cows rather than pigs! Anthony >>> mmccaffe at indiana.edu 19/04/2004 14:23:25 >>> This is from Robert Vezina, an expert in New World French. ========================================================== Le cri pour appeler le cochon... Au Qu?bec, il a y traditionnellement plusieurs de ces cris, mais je ne crois pas qu'il y ait qqchose comme co-coche ( The cry for calling pigs...In Quebec, there are several of these cries traditionally, but I don't believe there's anything like "co-coche" On a kyo-kyo-kyo (le plus fr?quent, je crois) et kyok-kyok. Aussi : kya-kya- kya. Aussi : kyak-kyak. Aussi : kyou-kyou-kyou (assez fr?quent). Dans quelques localit?s, on crie : kyouche-kyouche, ou : kyouk-kyouk. Aussi : tou-tou-tou. Il en reste d'autres, mais plus marginaux. There is kyo-kyo-kyo (the most common, I think) and kyok-kyok. Also: kya-kya- kya. And: kyak-kyak. Also: kyou-kyou-kyou (rather frequent). In a few places, they shout: kyouche-kyouche, or: kyouk-kyouk. Also: tou-tou-tou. There are some others but they are more marginal. From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Mon Apr 19 17:11:09 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 18:11:09 +0100 Subject: horse paper Message-ID: There's a paper on the distribution of forms from Sp. CABALLO in a Mouton volume whose refernce I don't have access to at the moment. The paper is by Lawrence Kiddle. Anthony From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Apr 19 17:35:45 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 12:35:45 -0500 Subject: Pigs In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D01233A74@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Yes, I'll get around to that, Bob. In the meantime, I've checked six French dictionaries covering the time from 1606 to 1835, and there's nothing that shows up for "coche" with the meaning of "pig". I'd begun to think, so I'm so not just beginning to think, that Taylor devised the "coche" = "pig" thing because it made things easy to explain. But the jury is still out. Michael On Mon, 19 Apr 2004, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > The French linguistic atlas (ALF) is the place to look. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Mccafferty [mailto:mmccaffe at indiana.edu] > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 8:17 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Pigs > > > > > On Sun, 18 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I found it too. Yes, it is a nice article. Thanks for > > the reference, everybody! > > > > Taylor actually suggests two different etymons: a Dutch > > hog call Kus^-kus^kus^, and a dialectal French form of cocoche or > > coucouche. > > Problem is, cocoche or coucouche, or even coche appear to be unattested. > "Cochon" is the French term. There's also an old term for a coach gate > at a castle or manor house "porte-cochere". Here "porte" is "door". > However, a modern French speaker would probably interpret that "porte" > as "carry". So, "porte-cochere," just "portefeuille" or "portemanteau" > sounds like something that carries pigs. Pig humor. > > This message segues into the round-up of pig calls known in French > Canada. > > Michael > > > > > > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 19 18:52:15 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 12:52:15 -0600 Subject: Pigs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Yes, I'll get around to that, Bob. In the meantime, I've checked six > French dictionaries covering the time from 1606 to 1835, and there's > nothing that shows up for "coche" with the meaning of "pig". I'd begun to > think, so I'm so not just beginning to think, that Taylor devised the > "coche" = "pig" thing because it made things easy to explain. But the jury > is still out. By way of background that is perhaps more apparent to Michael and Romance linguist Robert Rankin (dissertation on Romanian) than some of the rest of us, I take it that cochon is an augmentative in form, and is being taken as such by Allan Taylor, and that *coche would be the perhaps hypothetical underlying base or simplex form? The problem would be that the base form is not attested, or at least not in the relevant period. The calling form kyouche-kyouche is, of course, essentially the hypothetical "coche, coche" variant of the call. I have to confess that I haven't yet tracked down Allan's paper. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 19 19:04:40 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 13:04:40 -0600 Subject: horse paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Apr 2004, Anthony Grant wrote: > There's a paper on the distribution of forms from Sp. CABALLO in a > Mouton volume whose refernce I don't have access to at the moment. The > paper is by Lawrence Kiddle. Allan's comments on this always centered more on the distribution on innovated terms, e.g., dog-based or elk-based. From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Mon Apr 19 19:22:09 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 20:22:09 +0100 Subject: horse paper Message-ID: Kiddle cited some ethnography (John C. Ewer, perhaps?) that mentioned other ways of referring to horses, pointing out thaqt a Blackfoot form for horse derived from 'big dog'. >>> John.Koontz at colorado.edu 19/04/2004 20:04:40 >>> On Mon, 19 Apr 2004, Anthony Grant wrote: > There's a paper on the distribution of forms from Sp. CABALLO in a > Mouton volume whose refernce I don't have access to at the moment. The > paper is by Lawrence Kiddle. Allan's comments on this always centered more on the distribution on innovated terms, e.g., dog-based or elk-based. From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon Apr 19 19:51:17 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 13:51:17 -0600 Subject: Pigs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Allan tells me that his citation of "coche" and similar forms comes from Walther von Wartburg, Franzoesisches etymologisches Worterbuch, Band 2, Halbband 2, Basel, 1946, p. 1254. Wartburg was always held up to me as THE example of how to do etymology when I was in graduate school. We don't seem to have it in our local library. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 19 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 19 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > Yes, I'll get around to that, Bob. In the meantime, I've checked six > > French dictionaries covering the time from 1606 to 1835, and there's > > nothing that shows up for "coche" with the meaning of "pig". I'd begun to > > think, so I'm so not just beginning to think, that Taylor devised the > > "coche" = "pig" thing because it made things easy to explain. But the jury > > is still out. > > By way of background that is perhaps more apparent to Michael and Romance > linguist Robert Rankin (dissertation on Romanian) than some of the rest of > us, I take it that cochon is an augmentative in form, and is being taken > as such by Allan Taylor, and that *coche would be the perhaps hypothetical > underlying base or simplex form? The problem would be that the base form > is not attested, or at least not in the relevant period. The calling form > kyouche-kyouche is, of course, essentially the hypothetical "coche, coche" > variant of the call. > > I have to confess that I haven't yet tracked down Allan's paper. > From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon Apr 19 20:37:41 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 14:37:41 -0600 Subject: more "pig" citations Message-ID: Maybe the better place to look for French dialect "pig" words is Meyer-Luebke, romanisches etymologisch Woerterbuch (1935), entry 4745. And let's remember that Quebec is not necessarily going to be representative of all rural French dialects, esp. those spoken by Mississippi valley settlers. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Apr 19 21:43:33 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 16:43:33 -0500 Subject: more "pig" citations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Genealogical studies (in M. Juneau, Contrib. ? l'Histoire de la Prononciation Fran?aise au Qu?bec, 1972, p. 6) show the following leading provenances of Quebec families: 17th century: Normandy Ile de France Poitou Aunis, Iles de R? et d'Ol?ron 18th c.: Ile de France Normandie Brittany Poitou Alan From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Mon Apr 19 21:47:10 2004 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 14:47:10 -0700 Subject: Coche In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Maybe it's worth pointing out that the Petit Larousse has an entry "coche" defined as "femelle du cochon, truie" and a truie is also defined as a female pig. I have always thought of "-on" as a diminutive or hypocoristic suffix, as in salon, raton, etc. Interestingly for Iroquoianists, the name Huron is said to be based on "hure", which is a boar's head. Evidently the French were impressed by the Hurons' haircuts. --Wally From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 19 23:35:26 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 17:35:26 -0600 Subject: more "pig" citations In-Reply-To: <40844805.7010605@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Apr 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > Genealogical studies (in M. Juneau, Contrib. ? l'Histoire de la > Prononciation Fran?aise au Qu?bec, 1972, p. 6) show the following > leading provenances of Quebec families: > > 17th century: > Normandy > Ile de France > Poitou > Aunis, Iles de R? et d'Ol?ron > > 18th c.: > Ile de France > Normandie > Brittany > Poitou Whereas I noticed that the Sarpy family, who arrived in the late 18th Cent., and resided in St. Louis and (modern) Louisiana were from Gascony. From lcumberl at indiana.edu Tue Apr 20 00:59:10 2004 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 19:59:10 -0500 Subject: horse paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Anthony Grant : > Kiddle cited some ethnography (John C. Ewer, perhaps?) that mentioned > other ways of referring to horses, pointing out thaqt a Blackfoot form > for horse derived from 'big dog'. ...as is Assiniboine, s^uNka-thaNka. I take this to mean not that the horse looked like a big dog to them, but that the horse did what the dog did but in a bigger way. -Linda From boris at terracom.net Tue Apr 20 02:40:28 2004 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 21:40:28 -0500 Subject: pig Message-ID: From: THRESOR DE LA LANGUE FRANCOYSE TANT ANCIENNE QUE MODERNE Jean Nicot (1606) Coche, penac. Est ores de genre feminin et signifie tant une truye, porca, scrofa, et par metaphore en ceste signification, une femme qui par gesir et vivre en repos a accueilli graisse: que l'entameure de l'arbre d'une arbaleste o? la noix est log?e, Crena, crenae, et toute autre legere incision un peu creuse comme ? dos d'asne faite en bois, fer, pierre, ou autre estoffe. Et ores de genre masc. et signifie ceste maniere de char couvert ? quatre rou?s tir? par deux quatre ou plus de chevaux accouplez, que les Fran?ois ont pris en usage des Italiens, qui l'ont usit? par imitation des nations Septentrionales. Si que le mot Italien, qui est Coccio, nous en est demeur?, dont les anciens Romains ont us? de presque semblable, qu'ils appeloient, Arcera. I think the key words in this rather unflattering entry are porca, scrofa. There is a shorter entry in the 'Dictionnaire de l'Acad?mie Fran?aise. First Edition (1694)' Alan K From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Apr 20 13:30:34 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 08:30:34 -0500 Subject: horse paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The elk-based thing is neat. Thanks. This seems to arise from the same semantic pool as the early Nahuatl term for the Spanish horse: "mazatl" ('deer'). (Later in Nahuatl the term becomes "cahuayo". On Mon, 19 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > > Allan's comments on this always centered more on the distribution on > innovated terms, e.g., dog-based or elk-based. > b From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Apr 20 13:27:17 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 08:27:17 -0500 Subject: Pigs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John, I found it. Coche did exist in French. Nevermind. > > By way of background that is perhaps more apparent to Michael and Romance > linguist Robert Rankin (dissertation on Romanian) than some of the rest of > us, I take it that cochon is an augmentative in form, and is being taken > as such by Allan Taylor, and that *coche would be the perhaps hypothetical > underlying base or simplex form? T From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Apr 20 13:36:30 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 08:36:30 -0500 Subject: Pig sources Message-ID: These have "coche". Thanks for the input, y'all. Greimas, Dictionnaire de l'ancien fran?ais and his Dictionnaire du moyen fran?ais as well as in four etymological dictionaries (Le Robert, Dauzat, Picoche, and Bloch & von Wartburg). From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 20 19:58:37 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 13:58:37 -0600 Subject: horse paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > The elk-based thing is neat. Thanks. This seems to arise from the same > semantic pool as the early Nahuatl term for the Spanish horse: "mazatl" > ('deer'). (Later in Nahuatl the term becomes "cahuayo". Alan confirms that he hasn't written anything on 'horses', but comments "So you have words like "big dog" (Cree; also Santee Sioux) or "elk dog" (Blackfoot and Gros Ventre)." It has occurred to me that any comments I recall from class on 'horse' might just as well be from David Rood, rather than Allan Taylor. The pig paper probably led to a mythical horse paper through a sort of mental short circuit. From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Wed Apr 21 12:45:19 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 13:45:19 +0100 Subject: horse paper Message-ID: A propos of horses, dogs etc.: Tonkawa had a word for horse that meant 'dog for carrying things'; it had also had one which meant something to do with burdens, which had been used in Gatschet's day -Hoijer collected this word but not n a text (maybe it had been subject to taboo at some time). Given that Spanish was the major source of loans into Tonkawa, it's a little odd that it never took over a form of caballo/cahuayo. Anthony >>> John.Koontz at colorado.edu 20/04/2004 20:58:37 >>> On Tue, 20 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > The elk-based thing is neat. Thanks. This seems to arise from the same > semantic pool as the early Nahuatl term for the Spanish horse: "mazatl" > ('deer'). (Later in Nahuatl the term becomes "cahuayo". Alan confirms that he hasn't written anything on 'horses', but comments "So you have words like "big dog" (Cree; also Santee Sioux) or "elk dog" (Blackfoot and Gros Ventre)." It has occurred to me that any comments I recall from class on 'horse' might just as well be from David Rood, rather than Allan Taylor. The pig paper probably led to a mythical horse paper through a sort of mental short circuit. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Apr 21 13:34:31 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:34:31 -0500 Subject: Behind the 8-ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As many of you know, the Miami-Illinois term for "eight" /paraani/ is, as Bob Rankin pointed out in an article in IJAL several years ago, a borrowing from a Siouan language. Tutelo typically gets the nod. Can anyone suggest why this happened? No, not that Bob wrote it up, but that such a borrowing occurred. It's one of the strangest things. I imagine, since we're talking numbers, that it was borrowed probably in the process of trading. But does the number 8 have any mythological meaning? Thanks, Michael From rankin at ku.edu Wed Apr 21 13:52:50 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:52:50 -0500 Subject: Behind the 8-ball Message-ID: Can't say for sure, of course, but those higher numeral terms, esp. 8 and 9, seem rather unstable within Siouan at least. Nine is widely borrowed in or between Siouan and Algonquian, i.e., the /ki$aNhka/ term. It is very hard to reconstruct 7, 8, 9 for Proto-Siouan without appealing to "irregular" changes. 'Eight' is also borrowed in Kansa (and, I think, Osage) and resulted in competing forms. Kaw has /ppe:ya:bliN/, the inherited form, along with /kkiado:ba/ which looks very much like a Caddoan borrowing -- prob. from Wichita (although there is a folk etymology analyzing it as "two X four"). There's that article on Algonquian numeral words in the Siebert Festschrift, but I haven't read it yet. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Mccafferty" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 8:34 AM Subject: Behind the 8-ball > > > As many of you know, the Miami-Illinois term for "eight" /paraani/ is, as > Bob Rankin pointed out in an article in IJAL several years ago, a > borrowing from a Siouan language. Tutelo typically gets the nod. > > Can anyone suggest why this happened? No, not that Bob wrote it up, but > that such a borrowing occurred. It's one of the strangest things. I > imagine, since we're talking numbers, that it was borrowed probably in the > process of trading. But does the number 8 have any mythological meaning? > > Thanks, > Michael > > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Apr 21 14:12:05 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 07:12:05 -0700 Subject: Behind the 8-ball Message-ID: As one of the two authors of that article on Algonquian numeral words in the Siebert Festschrift, I can say that number borrowing is *very* common within Algonquian, but *much* rarer if you're talking about Algonquian borrowing from outside the family. We didn't address the issue of 'why' any of these numbers were borrowed, beyond pointing out possible trade contexts. The number eight doesn't have any special mythical significance that I'm aware of, and that question seems unanswerable to me. All I can say is that the original Proto-Algonquian word for 'eight' was lost by the earliest records of Miami-Illinois, and replaced with a neologism meaning 'two missing' or something like that (/nii$omeneehki/); that form is preserved in certain Illinois dialects. But in other Illinois dialects, you have the Tutelo loan /paraare/, and by the modern language it's /palaani/. Intervocalic Illinois /r/ becoming later M-I /n/ is not normal, but both of those variants *are* attested in Tutelo. So what seems to be happening is the Tutelo > M-I borrowing was so recent, it was borrowed in different forms in different M-I dialects, and other dialects didn't do it at all. Which says that the period of the M-I speakers being next to the Tutelo wasn't all that long ago, which seems very interesting to me, since Indiana and Illinois aren't very geographically close to central Virgina... David > Can't say for sure, of course, but those higher numeral terms, esp. 8 and 9, > seem rather unstable within Siouan at least. Nine is widely borrowed in or > between Siouan and Algonquian, i.e., the /ki$aNhka/ term. It is very hard to > reconstruct 7, 8, 9 for Proto-Siouan without appealing to "irregular" changes. > 'Eight' is also borrowed in Kansa (and, I think, Osage) and resulted in > competing forms. Kaw has /ppe:ya:bliN/, the inherited form, along with > /kkiado:ba/ which looks very much like a Caddoan borrowing -- prob. from > Wichita (although there is a folk etymology analyzing it as "two X four"). > There's that article on Algonquian numeral words in the Siebert Festschrift, > but I haven't read it yet. > > Bob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Mccafferty" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 8:34 AM > Subject: Behind the 8-ball > >> As many of you know, the Miami-Illinois term for "eight" /paraani/ is, as >> Bob Rankin pointed out in an article in IJAL several years ago, a >> borrowing from a Siouan language. Tutelo typically gets the nod. >> >> Can anyone suggest why this happened? No, not that Bob wrote it up, but >> that such a borrowing occurred. It's one of the strangest things. I >> imagine, since we're talking numbers, that it was borrowed probably in the >> process of trading. But does the number 8 have any mythological meaning? >> >> Thanks, >> Michael >> >> > From lcumberl at indiana.edu Wed Apr 21 15:04:41 2004 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:04:41 -0500 Subject: horse paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I suppose I should track down this horse paper, but in the meantime, I noticed in Dave Miller's introduction to Denig's "The Assiniboine" that JNB Hewitt replaced the word "medicine" with "divining" in Denig's manuscript: "consequently ... 'medicine dog' (the Assininboine term for horse) became 'divining dog'" (2000:xvi). Now, this is surprising, because the word for horse in every Asb dialect, as far as I know, is (as I communicated earlier) "big dog", not "sacred/medicine-dog" as it is in Sioux. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Denig's authority on the Assiniboine words for things in the mid-19th century, living as he did for two decades at the central trading site in the heart of Assiniboine territory, is pretty unassailable. So what happened? Linda Quoting Anthony Grant : > A propos of horses, dogs etc.: Tonkawa had a word for horse that meant > 'dog for carrying things'; it had also had one which meant something to > do with burdens, which had been used in Gatschet's day -Hoijer collected > this word but not n a text (maybe it had been subject to taboo at some > time). Given that Spanish was the major source of loans into Tonkawa, > it's a little odd that it never took over a form of caballo/cahuayo. > > Anthony > > >>> John.Koontz at colorado.edu 20/04/2004 20:58:37 >>> > On Tue, 20 Apr 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > The elk-based thing is neat. Thanks. This seems to arise from the > same > > semantic pool as the early Nahuatl term for the Spanish horse: > "mazatl" > > ('deer'). (Later in Nahuatl the term becomes "cahuayo". > > Alan confirms that he hasn't written anything on 'horses', but > comments > "So you have words like "big dog" (Cree; also Santee Sioux) or "elk > dog" > (Blackfoot and Gros Ventre)." > > It has occurred to me that any comments I recall from class on 'horse' > might just as well be from David Rood, rather than Allan Taylor. The > pig > paper probably led to a mythical horse paper through a sort of mental > short circuit. > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 21 15:26:36 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 09:26:36 -0600 Subject: horse paper In-Reply-To: <1082559881.40868d896f7b3@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 lcumberl at indiana.edu wrote: > ... Now, this is surprising, because the word for horse in every Asb > dialect, as far as I know, is (as I communicated earlier) "big dog", not > "sacred/medicine-dog" as it is in Sioux. > > Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Denig's authority on the Assiniboine > words for things in the mid-19th century, living as he did for two decades at > the central trading site in the heart of Assiniboine territory, is pretty > unassailable. So what happened? Unless there are also early attestations of 'big dog' it sounds like it must be a neologism. It's true that s^uNkawakhaN is given as the independent form in at least Teton, but in most compounds and phrases just s^uNka is used, and rederivations from that of new independent forms or what one might call "unmarked descriptive phrases" would be possible. I mentioned that Allan Taylor had suggested 'big dog' for Santee. I haven't checked this and wonder whether he might have been thinking of Assiniboine instead, as he also mentioned it as the etymology of the Cree term, and he is elsewhere on record as explaining many details of Stoney phonology as due to Cree influence. Perhaps lexical influence also occurs. From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Wed Apr 21 17:13:57 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:13:57 -0600 Subject: southern plains horses In-Reply-To: <1690062.1082540038@[192.168.2.34]> Message-ID: Similarly, Wichita has 2 words for 'horse': the caballo word (kawaarah in Wichita), and one that looks almost like one of the 'buffalo' words, namely taara (the buffalo word is tarha). I used to think they were suppletive forms for free noun vs. incorporated noun (I have never gotten kawaarah incorporated), but last summer someone used the taara form as a free noun. I have no etymology for the taara form except the possibility that it's somehow related to the 'buffalo' one. (If a contrast is necessary, taara means 'buffalo cow', but it also occurs in contexts were gender is irrelevant, as does the one for 'buffalo bull'.) David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 21 Apr 2004, Wallace Chafe wrote: > Caddo has two words for 'horse', which people often cite to show that "we > don't all talk alike": kawa:yuh and di:tamah (with falling pitch on the > di:). The di:- part in the latter means 'dog', but I've never been able to > figure out the -tamah. I mention this because the Caddos were neighbors of > the Tonkawas, with some linguistic contact, and it's quite possible the > Tonkawas also had an alternative word derived from caballo, which Hoijer > just didn't happen to record. > --Wally > > > A propos of horses, dogs etc.: Tonkawa had a word for horse that meant > > 'dog for carrying things'; it had also had one which meant something to > > do with burdens, which had been used in Gatschet's day -Hoijer collected > > this word but not n a text (maybe it had been subject to taboo at some > > time). Given that Spanish was the major source of loans into Tonkawa, > > it's a little odd that it never took over a form of caballo/cahuayo. > > From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Wed Apr 21 16:33:58 2004 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 09:33:58 -0700 Subject: Tonkawa horses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Caddo has two words for 'horse', which people often cite to show that "we don't all talk alike": kawa:yuh and di:tamah (with falling pitch on the di:). The di:- part in the latter means 'dog', but I've never been able to figure out the -tamah. I mention this because the Caddos were neighbors of the Tonkawas, with some linguistic contact, and it's quite possible the Tonkawas also had an alternative word derived from caballo, which Hoijer just didn't happen to record. --Wally > A propos of horses, dogs etc.: Tonkawa had a word for horse that meant > 'dog for carrying things'; it had also had one which meant something to > do with burdens, which had been used in Gatschet's day -Hoijer collected > this word but not n a text (maybe it had been subject to taboo at some > time). Given that Spanish was the major source of loans into Tonkawa, > it's a little odd that it never took over a form of caballo/cahuayo. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Apr 21 17:45:33 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:45:33 -0500 Subject: horse paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I mentioned that Allan Taylor had suggested 'big dog' for Santee. I > haven't checked this and wonder whether he might have been thinking of > Assiniboine instead, as he also mentioned it as the etymology of the Cree > term, and he is elsewhere on record as explaining many details of Stoney > phonology as due to Cree influence. Perhaps lexical influence also > occurs. The Williamson dictionary (English-Dakota) gives S^uNkthaNka as the primary entry (presumably Santee), followed by "Y. & T. S^uN'kawakhaN". The Riggs dictionary (Dakota-English) agrees in multiple entries. I believe Winnebago uses the 'big dog' form too. Perhaps the two versions were just alternate qualifiers in the northern MVS languages early on, with one form or the other eventually becoming standard. As John indicates, the actual head of these constructions is simply 'dog'. Rory From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Wed Apr 21 18:49:22 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 19:49:22 +0100 Subject: Tonkawa horses Message-ID: Dear Wally: If I recall correctlym the di:tamah word is recorded pretty early on in our records for Caddo. I know there's a reflex of caballo in some Dhegiha languages, as John K told me this per litteras some years back. It's possible that there was a reflex in Tonkawa that Hoijer, gatschet, Chowell, Pike et cetera never got. But Tonkawa wasn't much of a language for borrowing words - one or two from other local languages, a couple from English, about 10 from Spanish - just over 1% of the recorded stem collection for Tonkawa (Hoijer got about 930 items and there are some more simplexes in the older literature). Caddo didn't excatly go hog-wild borrowing words from other languages (certainly not if yo compare its loan tranche with that of, say, a California Uto-Aztecan language: there are hundreds of hispanisms in Luiseno and similar languages), but it does boast the most heterogeneous collection of loans that I know of in any language of the Americas. Anthony >>> chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu 21/04/2004 17:33:58 >>> Caddo has two words for 'horse', which people often cite to show that "we don't all talk alike": kawa:yuh and di:tamah (with falling pitch on the di:). The di:- part in the latter means 'dog', but I've never been able to figure out the -tamah. I mention this because the Caddos were neighbors of the Tonkawas, with some linguistic contact, and it's quite possible the Tonkawas also had an alternative word derived from caballo, which Hoijer just didn't happen to record. --Wally > A propos of horses, dogs etc.: Tonkawa had a word for horse that meant > 'dog for carrying things'; it had also had one which meant something to > do with burdens, which had been used in Gatschet's day -Hoijer collected > this word but not n a text (maybe it had been subject to taboo at some > time). Given that Spanish was the major source of loans into Tonkawa, > it's a little odd that it never took over a form of caballo/cahuayo. From jschudli at indiana.edu Wed Apr 21 20:36:35 2004 From: jschudli at indiana.edu (jschudli at indiana.edu) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:36:35 -0500 Subject: horse paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > As John indicates, the actual head of these constructions is simply 'dog'. I always liked the way Crow handled such "new things" - I don't remember the actual Crow, since this comes from a class Randy taught 5 or 6 years ago, but the gist is that many new things, including horses, simply co-opted a name that already existed in Crow. So horses are "dogs" and actual canine type dogs are "real dogs". I'm sure there are other introduced items that follow the same pattern as well, but I can't dredge them up from memory at the moment. - Joel Schudlich +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "...in accordance with an elaborate and secret code that is written nowhere, known by none, and understood by all." -Edward Sapir, 1927 =================================================================== From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 21 23:54:17 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 17:54:17 -0600 Subject: horse paper In-Reply-To: <1082579795.4086db53b6dd5@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 jschudli at indiana.edu wrote: > So horses are "dogs" and actual canine type dogs are "real dogs". I'm sure > there are other introduced items that follow the same pattern as well, but I > can't dredge them up from memory at the moment. OP: tta' 'deerlike animal' ('ruminant' is the fancy gloss) tta'=xti 'deer' = 'real deer' PpaN'kka 'Ponca' PpaN'kka=xti 'subclan of one of the Ponca clans' = 'real Poncas' (I think there are some other lexicalized =xti 'real' forms, but I'm forgetting them.) A similar pattern: ni'kkas^iNga 'person' (historically 'little person'?) ni'kkas^iNga ukke'dhiN (kk?) 'Indian' = 'common variety of person' wa(a)'xe 'whiteman' wa(a)'xe ukke'dhiN (kk?) 'Frenchman' = 'common variety of whiteman' From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Apr 22 06:21:21 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 00:21:21 -0600 Subject: Horse Forms (Re: horse paper) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > I believe Winnebago uses the 'big dog' form too. Perhaps the two > versions were just alternate qualifiers in the northern MVS languages > early on, with one form or the other eventually becoming standard. I'll skip Dakotan, which Rory and Linda have handled pretty well. >>From Miner and from Good Tacks: WI s^uNuN'k 'dog; horse' s^uNuN(k)xe'de 'horse' = 'big dog' IO suN(uN)'e ~ suN(uN)'e 'dog; horse' s. ukhe'iN 'dog' = 'ordinary dog' The latter given as shuNkhee, shuNkukhee, suNkhenyi(N). Recall that IO has s^ > s (with some attestations of s^), and that VNke > VNe ~ VNe. The form ukhe'e ~ ukhe'i(N) matches OP ukke'dhiN, both with the sense 'common, ordinary'. >>From Rankin, Dorsey, and LaFlesche: OP s^aN'ge 'horse' Kkawa'ha [man's name, meaning unknown, INs^ta'saNda clan] (Might be 'horse' or 'horsehide', cf. ha' 'skin'.) s^i'nudaN 'dog' I forget the explanation the CSD editors noted for the OP 'dog' term. KS s^oN'ge 'horse' kkawa'e ~ kkawa'ye 'horse' s^oN'ge o'yuda ~ s^oN'giida 'dog' (cf. oyu'daN 'to pull on, rein in, restrain') OS hka'wa 'horse' s^oN'ke 'dog' QU s^oN'ke 'dog' (and in compounds referring to horse-related things) ??? horse Personally, I think the kkawa... forms stem from Wichita kawaarah, rather than directly from Spanish caballo. It is true that the Spanish controlled St. Louis for a period, but most direct contact in that period was in the hands of francophones. The horses were obtained from the Wichita at an early period. Hollow: MA miNniNs 'horse; dog' (cf. miNniNs^ 'folded up; rolled up'?) miNniNsweruta 'dog' = 'dog-shit-eat' Everyday Crow and Matthews: CR bishkakaa'she, bishke' 'dog' (first is 'real dog', wi. kaa'she 'real') iichi'ile 'horse' iichi'ilikaashe 'elk' = 'real horse' HI mas^uka 'dog' ped=akuduti 'dog' = 'shit-eater' icuas^uka, itas^uka 'horse' The second Hidatsa dog term compares well with the Mandan term for indicating a dog to the exclusion of a horse. The first Hidatsa horse form was explained by some in Matthews' day as icumas^uka 'strong dog', presumably appealing to icii 'strong', but compare icii with the Crow 'elk' word. (Hidatsa has madoka 'elk'.) The second Hidatsa form looks like 'his-alienable-dog', cf. archaic Dakotan thas^uNke 'his horse'. The Crow-Hidatsa forms show the original 'beast' prefix *wi- (analogized to *wa in Hidatsa). I won't try to tackle the Southeastern forms for the moment. I think for present purposes Plains Algonquian, Comanche, Kiowa, and Plains Apache might be more to the point. From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Apr 22 07:13:28 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 08:13:28 +0100 Subject: Bilingual paronomasia In-Reply-To: <43383046.1081805337@[192.168.2.34]> Message-ID: >> Wally wrote: >>> Are these also paronomasia? I've heard that the Oneidas in Wisconsin >> refer >>> to Swedes with the Oneida word for "sweet". And they used to refer to >>> Lounsbury with their word for "lunch". >> >> It sounds like this is even more complicated. First they >> applied paronomasia to conceptually translate the foreign >> name into English, and then they calqued that English pun >> into their own language. >> >> Rory I don't know if any of you read the novels of Patrick O'Brian, particularly the Jack Aubrey novels, but in the last one I read the hero Jack Aubrey is captured by the Americans (could it be worse?) I imagine in the war of 1812. And someone in Boston informs another character that the phrase 'it cuts no ice with me' is from the Iroquois (it)katsno aissvizmi meaning 'I am not impressed'. It seemed amusing. Anyone know if this is true? Bruce Bruce Ingham Professor of Arabic Dialect Studies SOAS. London University Thornhaugh St. Russell Square London WC1H OXG. England **************************** Tel 020 7898 4336 **************************** From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Apr 22 13:50:42 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 08:50:42 -0500 Subject: Behind the 8-ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for the linguistic focus, Dave. I'm wondering how far back in the past could this change have taken place in your estimation. Lately archaeological discoveries are pointing to a Miami- Illinois-speaking presence in the lower Maumee valley during the Sandusky Tradition (ca. 1250-1650 AD). Confirmed historic Illinois pots known as Danner Ware are identical to a type known as Fort Meigs Notched Applique, et related varieties, in the vicinity of Toledo. This placement of MI folks in northwestern Ohio would not be that far from the putative Tutelo late historic estate on the upper Ohio. Michael Quoting David Costa : > As one of the two authors of that article on Algonquian numeral words in the > Siebert Festschrift, I can say that number borrowing is *very* common within > Algonquian, but *much* rarer if you're talking about Algonquian borrowing > from outside the family. We didn't address the issue of 'why' any of these > numbers were borrowed, beyond pointing out possible trade contexts. The > number eight doesn't have any special mythical significance that I'm aware > of, and that question seems unanswerable to me. All I can say is that the > original Proto-Algonquian word for 'eight' was lost by the earliest records > of Miami-Illinois, and replaced with a neologism meaning 'two missing' or > something like that (/nii$omeneehki/); that form is preserved in certain > Illinois dialects. But in other Illinois dialects, you have the Tutelo loan > /paraare/, and by the modern language it's /palaani/. Intervocalic Illinois > /r/ becoming later M-I /n/ is not normal, but both of those variants *are* > attested in Tutelo. So what seems to be happening is the Tutelo > M-I > borrowing was so recent, it was borrowed in different forms in different M-I > dialects, and other dialects didn't do it at all. Which says that the period > of the M-I speakers being next to the Tutelo wasn't all that long ago, which > seems very interesting to me, since Indiana and Illinois aren't very > geographically close to central Virgina... > > David > > > > Can't say for sure, of course, but those higher numeral terms, esp. 8 and > 9, > > seem rather unstable within Siouan at least. Nine is widely borrowed in > or > > between Siouan and Algonquian, i.e., the /ki$aNhka/ term. It is very hard > to > > reconstruct 7, 8, 9 for Proto-Siouan without appealing to "irregular" > changes. > > 'Eight' is also borrowed in Kansa (and, I think, Osage) and resulted in > > competing forms. Kaw has /ppe:ya:bliN/, the inherited form, along with > > /kkiado:ba/ which looks very much like a Caddoan borrowing -- prob. from > > Wichita (although there is a folk etymology analyzing it as "two X four"). > > > There's that article on Algonquian numeral words in the Siebert > Festschrift, > > but I haven't read it yet. > > > > Bob > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Michael Mccafferty" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 8:34 AM > > Subject: Behind the 8-ball > > > > >> As many of you know, the Miami-Illinois term for "eight" /paraani/ is, as > >> Bob Rankin pointed out in an article in IJAL several years ago, a > >> borrowing from a Siouan language. Tutelo typically gets the nod. > >> > >> Can anyone suggest why this happened? No, not that Bob wrote it up, but > >> that such a borrowing occurred. It's one of the strangest things. I > >> imagine, since we're talking numbers, that it was borrowed probably in > the > >> process of trading. But does the number 8 have any mythological meaning? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Michael > >> > >> > > > > > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Apr 22 14:58:12 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 07:58:12 -0700 Subject: Tutelo & Miami Message-ID: I readily admit, I don't know from archaeology. But Toledo, OH is still quite close to the historical location of the Miamis in northern Indiana, when you get right down to it. If you're saying the precontact homeland of the Tutelos is thought to be the 'upper Ohio', i.e., western Pennsylvania or thereabouts, then we *almost* have the M-I's and Tutelos next to each other, but not quite. Out of curiosity, what hard evidence IS there for locating the Tutelos before European contact? Dave > Thanks for the linguistic focus, Dave. > I'm wondering how far back in the past could this change have taken place in > your estimation. Lately archaeological discoveries are pointing to a Miami- > Illinois-speaking presence in the lower Maumee valley during the Sandusky > Tradition (ca. 1250-1650 AD). Confirmed historic Illinois pots known as Danner > Ware are identical to a type known as Fort Meigs Notched Applique, et related > varieties, in the vicinity of Toledo. This placement of MI folks in > northwestern Ohio would not be that far from the putative Tutelo late historic > estate on the upper Ohio. > > Michael > > Quoting David Costa : > >> As one of the two authors of that article on Algonquian numeral words in the >> Siebert Festschrift, I can say that number borrowing is *very* common within >> Algonquian, but *much* rarer if you're talking about Algonquian borrowing >> from outside the family. We didn't address the issue of 'why' any of these >> numbers were borrowed, beyond pointing out possible trade contexts. The >> number eight doesn't have any special mythical significance that I'm aware >> of, and that question seems unanswerable to me. All I can say is that the >> original Proto-Algonquian word for 'eight' was lost by the earliest records >> of Miami-Illinois, and replaced with a neologism meaning 'two missing' or >> something like that (/nii$omeneehki/); that form is preserved in certain >> Illinois dialects. But in other Illinois dialects, you have the Tutelo loan >> /paraare/, and by the modern language it's /palaani/. Intervocalic Illinois >> /r/ becoming later M-I /n/ is not normal, but both of those variants *are* >> attested in Tutelo. So what seems to be happening is the Tutelo > M-I >> borrowing was so recent, it was borrowed in different forms in different M-I >> dialects, and other dialects didn't do it at all. Which says that the period >> of the M-I speakers being next to the Tutelo wasn't all that long ago, which >> seems very interesting to me, since Indiana and Illinois aren't very >> geographically close to central Virgina... >> >> David >> >> >>> Can't say for sure, of course, but those higher numeral terms, esp. 8 and 9, >>> seem rather unstable within Siouan at least. Nine is widely borrowed in or >>> between Siouan and Algonquian, i.e., the /ki$aNhka/ term. It is very hard >>> to reconstruct 7, 8, 9 for Proto-Siouan without appealing to "irregular" >>> changes. 'Eight' is also borrowed in Kansa (and, I think, Osage) and >>> resulted in competing forms. Kaw has /ppe:ya:bliN/, the inherited form, >>> along with /kkiado:ba/ which looks very much like a Caddoan borrowing -- >>> prob. from Wichita (although there is a folk etymology analyzing it as "two >>> X four"). >>> There's that article on Algonquian numeral words in the Siebert Festschrift, >>> but I haven't read it yet. > >> > Bob >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Michael Mccafferty" >> > To: >> > Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 8:34 AM >> > Subject: Behind the 8-ball >> > >> >>>> As many of you know, the Miami-Illinois term for "eight" /paraani/ is, as >>>> Bob Rankin pointed out in an article in IJAL several years ago, a borrowing >>>> from a Siouan language. Tutelo typically gets the nod. > >>>> Can anyone suggest why this happened? No, not that Bob wrote it up, but that >>>> such a borrowing occurred. It's one of the strangest things. I imagine, >>>> since we're talking numbers, that it was borrowed probably in the process of >>>> trading. But does the number 8 have any mythological meaning? > >>>> Thanks, Michael > > > > > > > > From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Apr 22 15:20:59 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 10:20:59 -0500 Subject: Bilingual paronomasia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bruce Ingham wrote: > And someone in Boston informs another character that the phrase 'it cuts no > ice with me' is from the Iroquois (it)katsno aissvizmi meaning 'I am not > impressed'. It seemed amusing. Anyone know if this is true? The earliest record in the OED is from 1895, with no hint of an Iroquois connection. Alan From BARudes at aol.com Thu Apr 22 15:44:09 2004 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:44:09 EDT Subject: Bilingual paronomasia Message-ID: Bruce, It seems pretty clear that (it)katsno aissvizmi is just a quasi-phonetic rendition of "it cuts no ice with me" (i.e. (it) kats no aiss viz mi). It is not from an Iroquoian language. Blair From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Apr 22 16:25:18 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:25:18 -0500 Subject: Tutelo Message-ID: Dave, I'm not a Tutelo expert but I have been accumulating data for looking into the Tutelo in the Ohio valley with the hope of somehow linking them up with the Miami-Illinois. A lot or all of this material may be old hat for our (non-) fellow Siouanists. There is Huberto Dixon's paper on Siouans in the Ohio Valley. He collects all of the accounts in the oral traditions of Siouans in the Ohio Valley. There is a Catawba migration narrative in Schoolcraft which has the Catawbas along the south shore of Lake Erie at one point in their history. I've heard that one Darla Spencer is collecting such accounts of Siouans in the Ohio Valley with an eye to tying them into the archaeological evidence such as net-impressed pottery in the Kanawha and Big Sandy river valleys. Dick George at Carnegie Museum in Pittsburgh is trying to make a Siouan connection with the Monongehla Culture of the upper Ohio Valley. David Feurst is an authority on New River archaeology. Michael From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Apr 22 16:30:25 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:30:25 -0500 Subject: horse paper In-Reply-To: <1082579795.4086db53b6dd5@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 jschudli at indiana.edu wrote: > So horses are "dogs" and actual canine type dogs are "real dogs". I'm sure > there are other introduced items that follow the same pattern as well, but I > can't dredge them up from memory at the moment. > > - Joel Schudlich > A parallel case might be made in the case of Miami-Illinois /mahweewa/ 'wolf', an animal known to Algonquians from day one, and Miami-Illinois /lenimahwia/ 'real wolf', the term for "coyote," a prairie animal that was not there from day one. Michael From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Apr 22 16:24:11 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:24:11 +0100 Subject: Siouan Caddoan 2004 In-Reply-To: <78.551e04a4.2db94249@aol.com> Message-ID: I have been trying to get a message to Catherine Rudin about registering for the 2004 Siouan Caddoan conference, but my message is being returned. Can anyone advise on her email address and whether she is the correct person to contact Bruce From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Apr 22 16:31:18 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:31:18 +0100 Subject: Bilingual paronomasia In-Reply-To: <4087E2DB.1000705@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On 22/4/04 4:20 pm, "Alan Hartley" wrote: > Bruce Ingham wrote: > >> And someone in Boston informs another character that the phrase 'it cuts no >> ice with me' is from the Iroquois (it)katsno aissvizmi meaning 'I am not >> impressed'. It seemed amusing. Anyone know if this is true? > > The earliest record in the OED is from 1895, with no hint of an Iroquois > connection. > > Alan > > > Thanks all. It looked too good to be true. Bruce From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Thu Apr 22 16:46:07 2004 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:46:07 -0500 Subject: Siouan Caddoan 2004 Message-ID: Hi, Bruce! Yes, I am the correct person to contact about the Siouan and Caddoan conference. I hope no one else has had trouble reaching me! My email is carudin1 at wsc.edu. Or you can fax me at 402-375-7130, phone me at 402-375-7026, or write me an old-fashioned letter at Department of Language and Literature, Wayne State College, 1111 Main St., Wayne, NE 68787 USA Glad you are planning to come! I'll save you a spot on the program and look forward to getting your title. Thanks for giving me an opening to remind everyone to get their titles in soon... I've already received several excellent abstracts for the conference, and hope to get a bunch more next week. The official abstract deadline is May 1. It doesn't have to be a detailed abstract -- just a title or a rough topic is ok, but do send me something, so I can put together a first draft of the program early in May. I'd also appreciate hearing from anyone who plans to attend but not present, just so I have an idea how many people to plan for. If anyone has ideas for roundtable discussions, topical workshops, demonstrations, or whatever -- anything else you'd like to see on the program -- let me know. Suggestions welcome! For information on housing, travel, etc., check the SSILA website. Catherine Bruce Ingham To: Sent by: cc: owner-siouan at lists.c Subject: Siouan Caddoan 2004 olorado.edu 04/22/04 11:24 AM Please respond to siouan I have been trying to get a message to Catherine Rudin about registering for the 2004 Siouan Caddoan conference, but my message is being returned. Can anyone advise on her email address and whether she is the correct person to contact Bruce From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Apr 22 16:39:42 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:39:42 -0500 Subject: Tutelo & Miami In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yeah, you know, my hunch is that the course that the Miami took in the late 1600s from what is now Berlin, Wisconsin (a town they shared with the Mascouten), to where Niles, Michigan, is now and then to the site of present-day Fort Wayne, Indiana, was **just going home**. It seems that's what war refugees do--if they can--they go home, after conflicts are settled. The Illinois' going back home was brought to a halt by the alienation that they and the Miami had created for each other after the Central Algonquian diaspora ca. 1650. The Illinois got stuck in Illinois and never made it back further east to the western Lake Erie watershed. On Thu, 22 Apr 2004, David Costa wrote: > I readily admit, I don't know from archaeology. But Toledo, OH is still > quite close to the historical location of the Miamis in northern Indiana, > when you get right down to it. If you're saying the precontact homeland of > the Tutelos is thought to be the 'upper Ohio', i.e., western Pennsylvania or > thereabouts, then we *almost* have the M-I's and Tutelos next to each other, > but not quite. > > Out of curiosity, what hard evidence IS there for locating the Tutelos > before European contact? > > Dave From boris at terracom.net Thu Apr 22 16:49:45 2004 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:49:45 -0500 Subject: horse paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That brings to mind the Proto_Algonquin term for " ordinary or even original, or plain ( =real) *eleni-" which shows as "leni-" below, it appears also in PA (Bloomfield) *eleneq$ipa "mallard duck" and perhaps in *elenyiwa "man" (which is the source of the ethnonym "Illinois"). Alan K On Thur, 22 Apr 2004 Michael wrote: A parallel case might be made in the case of Miami-Illinois /mahweewa/ 'wolf', an animal known to Algonquians from day one, and Miami-Illinois /lenimahwia/ 'real wolf', the term for "coyote," a prairie animal that was not there from day one. Michael From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Apr 22 16:55:53 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 09:55:53 -0700 Subject: horse paper Message-ID: The prenoun represented by Miami /leni-/ and PA */elen-/ can also mean 'ordinary, regular' in some constructions in some languages, such as Ojibwe /ininishib/ 'mallard', i.e., 'ordinary duck'. Looked at that way, an 'ordinary wolf' etymology for 'coyote' makes sense in that as the M-I speakers gradually moved into areas where wolves were more and more scarce, they were also coming into regular contact with coyotes for the first time. Either way, the Potawatomis also came up with the exact same name for coyotes, /nunim?we/ in that language ('?' = glottal stop, 'u' = schwa). David > A parallel case might be made in the case of Miami-Illinois /mahweewa/ > 'wolf', an animal known to Algonquians from day one, and Miami-Illinois > /lenimahwia/ 'real wolf', the term for "coyote," a prairie animal that was > not there from day one. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Apr 22 17:05:37 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:05:37 -0600 Subject: Bilingual paronomasia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 2004, Bruce Ingham wrote: > I don't know if any of you read the novels of Patrick O'Brian, particularly > the Jack Aubrey novels, but in the last one I read the hero Jack Aubrey is > captured by the Americans (could it be worse?) I imagine in the war of 1812. > And someone in Boston informs another character that the phrase 'it cuts no > ice with me' is from the Iroquois (it)katsno aissvizmi meaning 'I am not > impressed'. It seemed amusing. Anyone know if this is true? My impression when I read it was that O'Brian made it up, and that part of the humor, whether for him or for us, was to foist this misinformation with, as it were, a straight face. A principle O'Brian employed to some extent in life as well as art. For example, he wasn't Irish as he claimed to be. I don't think the phonology works for Iroquoian, anyway, though v is sometimes used for a nasal vowel. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Apr 22 17:10:33 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 10:10:33 -0700 Subject: horse paper Message-ID: Looks like our thoughts overlapped here... Actually, I published an article that discussed the name 'Illinois' 4 years ago (Miami-Illinois Tribe Names. Papers of the 31st Algonquian Conference, pp. 30-53. {2000}). The name 'Illinois' does not come from the Illinois word for 'man', /ireniwa/. In fact, it comes from French, which borrowed it from the old Ojibwe name for the Illinois, /ilinwe/, pl. /ilinwek/. This in turn is an Ojibwe borrowing from Illinois /irenweewa/ 'he speaks Illinois, speaks in the regular way'. If you want to read my full argumentation for this etymology, it's on page 46-47 of the article. Dave > That brings to mind the Proto_Algonquin term for " ordinary or even > original, or plain ( =real) *eleni-" which shows as "leni-" below, it > appears also in PA (Bloomfield) *eleneq$ipa "mallard duck" and perhaps > in *elenyiwa "man" (which is the source of the ethnonym "Illinois"). > > Alan K -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Thu Apr 22 17:28:43 2004 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 10:28:43 -0700 Subject: O'Brian's Imagination In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just to second what Blair said, there's no possible way in which this could be Iroquoian. --Wally > On Thu, 22 Apr 2004, Bruce Ingham wrote: >> I don't know if any of you read the novels of Patrick O'Brian, >> particularly the Jack Aubrey novels, but in the last one I read the hero >> Jack Aubrey is captured by the Americans (could it be worse?) I imagine >> in the war of 1812. And someone in Boston informs another character that >> the phrase 'it cuts no ice with me' is from the Iroquois (it)katsno >> aissvizmi meaning 'I am not impressed'. It seemed amusing. Anyone know >> if this is true? > > My impression when I read it was that O'Brian made it up, and that part of > the humor, whether for him or for us, was to foist this misinformation > with, as it were, a straight face. A principle O'Brian employed to some > extent in life as well as art. For example, he wasn't Irish as he claimed > to be. > > I don't think the phonology works for Iroquoian, anyway, though v is > sometimes used for a nasal vowel. From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Apr 22 17:28:41 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 18:28:41 +0100 Subject: Bilingual paronomasia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 22/4/04 6:05 pm, "Koontz John E" wrote: > On Thu, 22 Apr 2004, Bruce Ingham wrote: >> I don't know if any of you read the novels of Patrick O'Brian, particularly >> the Jack Aubrey novels, but in the last one I read the hero Jack Aubrey is >> captured by the Americans (could it be worse?) I imagine in the war of 1812. >> And someone in Boston informs another character that the phrase 'it cuts no >> ice with me' is from the Iroquois (it)katsno aissvizmi meaning 'I am not >> impressed'. It seemed amusing. Anyone know if this is true? > > My impression when I read it was that O'Brian made it up, and that part of > the humor, whether for him or for us, was to foist this misinformation > with, as it were, a straight face. A principle O'Brian employed to some > extent in life as well as art. For example, he wasn't Irish as he claimed > to be. > > I don't think the phonology works for Iroquoian, anyway, though v is > sometimes used for a nasal vowel. > > > > Sounds like a good interpretation. There are lots of unacknowledged jokes in his books Bruce From boris at terracom.net Thu Apr 22 17:33:51 2004 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 12:33:51 -0500 Subject: horse paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for the clarification, I missed the article (looking for it today), it does appear, though, that they both connect back to same source? Alan K -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of David Costa Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 12:11 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: horse paper Looks like our thoughts overlapped here... Actually, I published an article that discussed the name 'Illinois' 4 years ago (Miami-Illinois Tribe Names. Papers of the 31st Algonquian Conference, pp. 30-53. {2000}). The name 'Illinois' does not come from the Illinois word for 'man', /ireniwa/. In fact, it comes from French, which borrowed it from the old Ojibwe name for the Illinois, /ilinwe/, pl. /ilinwek/. This in turn is an Ojibwe borrowing from Illinois /irenweewa/ 'he speaks Illinois, speaks in the regular way'. If you want to read my full argumentation for this etymology, it's on page 46-47 of the article. Dave > That brings to mind the Proto_Algonquin term for " ordinary or even > original, or plain ( =real) *eleni-" which shows as "leni-" below, it > appears also in PA (Bloomfield) *eleneq$ipa "mallard duck" and perhaps > in *elenyiwa "man" (which is the source of the ethnonym "Illinois"). > > Alan K -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Apr 22 19:45:39 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 12:45:39 -0700 Subject: horse paper Message-ID: Not sure what you mean by 'same source'; they both contain PA */elen-/ 'ordinary, real'. However, they contain different finals: Illinois /irenweewa/ 'he speaks Illinois, speaks one's language' contains /-(i)wee-/, a 'by speech' final, while Illinois /ireniwa/ 'man' (< PA */elenyiwa/) appears to be a very old construction meaning something like 'real being, ordinary being'. Dave Thanks for the clarification, I missed the article (looking for it today), it does appear, though, that they both connect back to same source? Alan K -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of David Costa Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 12:11 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: horse paper Looks like our thoughts overlapped here... Actually, I published an article that discussed the name 'Illinois' 4 years ago (Miami-Illinois Tribe Names. Papers of the 31st Algonquian Conference, pp. 30-53. {2000}). The name 'Illinois' does not come from the Illinois word for 'man', /ireniwa/. In fact, it comes from French, which borrowed it from the old Ojibwe name for the Illinois, /ilinwe/, pl. /ilinwek/. This in turn is an Ojibwe borrowing from Illinois /irenweewa/ 'he speaks Illinois, speaks in the regular way'. If you want to read my full argumentation for this etymology, it's on page 46-47 of the article. Dave > That brings to mind the Proto_Algonquin term for " ordinary or even > original, or plain ( =real) *eleni-" which shows as "leni-" below, it > appears also in PA (Bloomfield) *eleneq$ipa "mallard duck" and perhaps > in *elenyiwa "man" (which is the source of the ethnonym "Illinois"). > > Alan K -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From boris at terracom.net Thu Apr 22 19:58:33 2004 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:58:33 -0500 Subject: horse paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That's what I meant, constructions based on PA */elen-/ 'ordinary, real'. Alan K -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of David Costa Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 2:46 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: horse paper Not sure what you mean by 'same source'; they both contain PA */elen-/ 'ordinary, real'. However, they contain different finals: Illinois /irenweewa/ 'he speaks Illinois, speaks one's language' contains /-(i)wee-/, a 'by speech' final, while Illinois /ireniwa/ 'man' (< PA */elenyiwa/) appears to be a very old construction meaning something like 'real being, ordinary being'. Dave Thanks for the clarification, I missed the article (looking for it today), it does appear, though, that they both connect back to same source? Alan K -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of David Costa Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 12:11 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: horse paper Looks like our thoughts overlapped here... Actually, I published an article that discussed the name 'Illinois' 4 years ago (Miami-Illinois Tribe Names. Papers of the 31st Algonquian Conference, pp. 30-53. {2000}). The name 'Illinois' does not come from the Illinois word for 'man', /ireniwa/. In fact, it comes from French, which borrowed it from the old Ojibwe name for the Illinois, /ilinwe/, pl. /ilinwek/. This in turn is an Ojibwe borrowing from Illinois /irenweewa/ 'he speaks Illinois, speaks in the regular way'. If you want to read my full argumentation for this etymology, it's on page 46-47 of the article. Dave > That brings to mind the Proto_Algonquin term for " ordinary or even > original, or plain ( =real) *eleni-" which shows as "leni-" below, it > appears also in PA (Bloomfield) *eleneq$ipa "mallard duck" and perhaps > in *elenyiwa "man" (which is the source of the ethnonym "Illinois"). > > Alan K -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Thu Apr 22 21:58:59 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 15:58:59 -0600 Subject: "real" nouns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In Lakhota shoes are shoes, and moccasins are "real shoes". I can't recall which language I heard this in, but I have also heard of chickens being named for "turkey", and then turkeys being "real turkeys". It looks like an idea that occurred to more than one group about more than one item. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 21 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 jschudli at indiana.edu wrote: > > So horses are "dogs" and actual canine type dogs are "real dogs". I'm sure > > there are other introduced items that follow the same pattern as well, but I > > can't dredge them up from memory at the moment. > > OP: tta' 'deerlike animal' ('ruminant' is the fancy gloss) > tta'=xti 'deer' = 'real deer' > > PpaN'kka 'Ponca' > PpaN'kka=xti 'subclan of one of the Ponca clans' = 'real Poncas' > > (I think there are some other lexicalized =xti 'real' forms, but I'm > forgetting them.) > > A similar pattern: > > ni'kkas^iNga 'person' (historically 'little person'?) > ni'kkas^iNga ukke'dhiN (kk?) 'Indian' = 'common variety of person' > > wa(a)'xe 'whiteman' > wa(a)'xe ukke'dhiN (kk?) 'Frenchman' = 'common variety of whiteman' > From wildernessexplorers at juno.com Fri Apr 23 00:21:54 2004 From: wildernessexplorers at juno.com (Benjamin Bruce) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:21:54 -0500 Subject: Tonkawa horses Message-ID: Hi Wallace, Do you happen to know whether Hoijer recorded any type of greeting in his _Tonkawa Texts_, or do you have a copy of them handy that you could look through? I'm doing a project to find a greeting (preferably "hello") in every tribal language of Oklahoma, and now I'm down to two: Tonkawa and Plains Apache. So, if you know of any greeting that Hoijer may have recorded in Tonkawa, please let me know! U-ra! (Thanks in Comanche) Benjamin Bruce Hello Oklahoma! http://hello-oklahoma.niwic.net ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Fri Apr 23 02:39:35 2004 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:39:35 -0500 Subject: "real" nouns Message-ID: Yes -- I've also read somewhere about a language where sheep are "rabbit" and rabbits are "real rabbit" ... seems to me that article had a lot of similar examples, some involving introduced plants, from various parts of the world. It's been a long time, though, and the details are really dim in my mind... Seems like a perfectly reasonable way to name things; not very surprising. In Lakhota shoes are shoes, and moccasins are "real shoes". I can't recall which language I heard this in, but I have also heard of chickens being named for "turkey", and then turkeys being "real turkeys". It looks like an idea that occurred to more than one group about more than one item. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 21 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 jschudli at indiana.edu wrote: > > So horses are "dogs" and actual canine type dogs are "real dogs". I'm sure > > there are other introduced items that follow the same pattern as well, but I > > can't dredge them up from memory at the moment. > > OP: tta' 'deerlike animal' ('ruminant' is the fancy gloss) > tta'=xti 'deer' = 'real deer' > > PpaN'kka 'Ponca' > PpaN'kka=xti 'subclan of one of the Ponca clans' = 'real Poncas' > > (I think there are some other lexicalized =xti 'real' forms, but I'm > forgetting them.) > > A similar pattern: > > ni'kkas^iNga 'person' (historically 'little person'?) > ni'kkas^iNga ukke'dhiN (kk?) 'Indian' = 'common variety of person' > > wa(a)'xe 'whiteman' > wa(a)'xe ukke'dhiN (kk?) 'Frenchman' = 'common variety of whiteman' > From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Fri Apr 23 09:37:51 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:37:51 +0100 Subject: Tonkawa horses Message-ID: Just a note: in case Benjamin doesn't know about this, thre is work on Plains Apache by Marie-Louise Liebe-Harkort and also a dissertation by William Bittle. Anthony >>> wildernessexplorers at juno.com 23/04/2004 01:21:54 >>> Hi Wallace, Do you happen to know whether Hoijer recorded any type of greeting in his _Tonkawa Texts_, or do you have a copy of them handy that you could look through? I'm doing a project to find a greeting (preferably "hello") in every tribal language of Oklahoma, and now I'm down to two: Tonkawa and Plains Apache. So, if you know of any greeting that Hoijer may have recorded in Tonkawa, please let me know! U-ra! (Thanks in Comanche) Benjamin Bruce Hello Oklahoma! http://hello-oklahoma.niwic.net ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From wildernessexplorers at juno.com Fri Apr 23 15:19:26 2004 From: wildernessexplorers at juno.com (Benjamin Bruce) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:19:26 -0500 Subject: Tonkawa horses Message-ID: Sorry, I didn't mean to send this to the whole list! I just hit 'reply' and forgot to change the e-mail address. On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:21:54 -0500 Benjamin Bruce writes: > Hi Wallace, > > Do you happen to know whether Hoijer recorded any type of greeting > in his _Tonkawa Texts_, or do you have a copy of them handy that you > could look through? > I'm doing a project to find a greeting (preferably "hello") > in every tribal language of Oklahoma, and now I'm down to two: > Tonkawa and Plains Apache. So, if you know of any greeting that > Hoijer may have recorded in Tonkawa, please let me know! > > U-ra! (Thanks in Comanche) > > Benjamin Bruce > Hello Oklahoma! > http://hello-oklahoma.niwic.net > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From rankin at ku.edu Fri Apr 23 18:03:35 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:03:35 -0500 Subject: Kaw dogs/horses. Message-ID: In Kaw 'horse' has taken over $oNge entirely, although there is a Spanish synonym, kkawaye. 'Dog' is $oNgiidaN, contracted from $oNge+oyudaN 'dog+pull-on', i.e., the animal used to pull the travois. This seems to be the common thing in languages -- the new object requiring a name takes over an older name completely and the object the name used to refer to gets a modifier or a replacement term. Bob From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Sun Apr 25 19:25:16 2004 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 12:25:16 -0700 Subject: Tonkawa horses In-Reply-To: <20040422.212855.2644.5.WildernessExplorers@juno.com> Message-ID: Hi Bruce, A cursory look at Hoijer's materials didn't bring up a greeting. I don't think it's something that's likely to come up in texts of the kind he collected, and his dictionary is just Tonkawa-English. However, you yourself might want to take a look at University of California Publications in Linguistics 73 (1972). I'm wondering what you have for Caddo. The regular greeting is kuha?ahat, with an accent (high pitch) on the u. (? is a glottal stop.) That's the slow speech form. In fast speech, which is normally used for greetings, the intervocalic h's are lost, so it's kua?a:t (again with an accent on the u). It means something like "just good". (The adjective "good" is ha?ahat, without the prefix ku-.) Best wishes, Wally > Do you happen to know whether Hoijer recorded any type of greeting in his > _Tonkawa Texts_, or do you have a copy of them handy that you could look > through? > I'm doing a project to find a greeting (preferably "hello") in every > tribal language of Oklahoma, and now I'm down to two: Tonkawa and Plains > Apache. So, if you know of any greeting that Hoijer may have recorded in > Tonkawa, please let me know! From Rgraczyk at aol.com Mon Apr 26 14:53:00 2004 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Randolph Graczyk) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:53:00 EDT Subject: horse paper Message-ID: In a message dated 4/21/2004 2:42:14 PM Mountain Daylight Time, jschudli at indiana.edu writes: > always liked the way Crow handled such "new things" - I don't remember the > actual Crow, since this comes from a class Randy taught 5 or 6 years ago, > but > the gist is that many new things, including horses, simply co-opted a name > that already existed in Crow. > > So horses are "dogs" and actual canine type dogs are "real dogs". I'm sure > there are other introduced items that follow the same pattern as well, but I > > can't dredge them up from memory at the moment. > > Crow has both a 'dog' word and an 'elk' word for horse. The non-possessed form for horse is iichi'ili, which is the original word for elk, as illustrated by compounds like iichi'il-ihta 'elk tooth'. The possessed form is isaashka' 'his horse', the original possessed form for dog. The possessed form for dog today is isaashka-kaa'shi (kaa'shi is a suffix meaning 'real, genuine') Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 26 18:05:32 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 13:05:32 -0500 Subject: [Spam:****** SpamScore] Re: horse paper Message-ID: I'm afraid the University of Kansas' "spam filter" software thinks that every message with any extra large font is now "spam" and so marks it (see subject line, above). I try to look carefully at my mail, and my 65 year old eyes actually like the larger typeface. But this is going to continue to be a problem, since the University filters all incoming mail and users like me are not allowed to "mess with" the programming. -----Original Message----- From: Rgraczyk at aol.com [mailto:Rgraczyk at aol.com] Crow has both a 'dog' word and an 'elk' word for horse. The non-possessed form for horse is iichi'ili, which is the original word for elk, as illustrated by compounds like iichi'il-ihta 'elk tooth'. The possessed form is isaashka' 'his horse', the original possessed form for dog. The possessed form for dog today is isaashka-kaa'shi (kaa'shi is a suffix meaning 'real, genuine') Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Mon Apr 26 18:50:39 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 19:50:39 +0100 Subject: 'Real' nouns and marking reversal Message-ID: Dear all: There's a paper on marking reversals of exactly the sort we are discussing, by Cecil H Brown and te late Stanley R Witkowski, in Language in the mid-1980s. And there's a paper on 'real, true and genine' in Indian languages, somewhere, by the ineffable Albert Samuel Gatschet from about 1880. 'Horse' in Tonkawa was, inter alia, something like 'ekWanesxaw (W is superscript) 'horse for dragging'. I'll have to check the phonemic shape of this form, but it was something like that. 'ekWan means 'dog'. Anthony From boris at terracom.net Mon Apr 26 19:06:41 2004 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:06:41 -0500 Subject: 'Real' nouns and marking reversal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Anthony According to Hoijer 1946: ?ekWan 'dog', ?ekWansxaw 'horse' (?ekWan- 'dog', -s 'instrumental suffix, -xaw 'to move far(?)' Alan K -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Grant Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 1:51 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: 'Real' nouns and marking reversal Dear all: There's a paper on marking reversals of exactly the sort we are discussing, by Cecil H Brown and te late Stanley R Witkowski, in Language in the mid-1980s. And there's a paper on 'real, true and genine' in Indian languages, somewhere, by the ineffable Albert Samuel Gatschet from about 1880. 'Horse' in Tonkawa was, inter alia, something like 'ekWanesxaw (W is superscript) 'horse for dragging'. I'll have to check the phonemic shape of this form, but it was something like that. 'ekWan means 'dog'. Anthony From ahartley at d.umn.edu Tue Apr 27 01:40:49 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 20:40:49 -0500 Subject: hankee Message-ID: Here's what I have from Lewis and Clark: --- APPLE, WHITE Indian breadroot, Pediomelum [formerly Psoralea] esculentum, of the pea family. Lewis [4.125] describes the edible root as of "a fine white substance, somewhat porus, spungy and moist, and reather tough before it is dressed." The name is a literal translation of the Canadian French pomme blanche. See POTATO. the Indian woman [Sacagawea]..gathered a considerable quantity of the white apples of which she eat so heartily in their raw state [19 Jun 05 ML 4.309] the men dug great parcel of the root which the Nativs call Hankee and the engagees the white apple [10 Aug 06 WC 8.288] --- On 10 Aug. 1806, Clark was on the Missouri in western North Dakota near the junction among the territories of the Crows, Hidatsas, and Assiniboines. Can anyone identify the language and the meaning of "hankee" for me? Thanks, Alan P.S. And because I cross-referenced it and because we've discussed both these species before: --- POTATO The edible tuber of the Indian potato or ground-nut, Apios americana. The plant is a perennial vine of the pea family. For another root-plant of the pea family, see (WHITE) APPLE. The common wild pittatoe?form another article of food in savage life[.] this they boil untill the skin leaves the pulp easily..the pettatoe?is exposed on a scaffold to the sun or a slow fire untill it is thoroughly dryed [winter 03-04 ML 2.223] I saw Homney [hominy] of ground Potatos [26 Sep 04 WC 3.117] Also, abbreviated in the plural as potas., = WAPATO. Janey[?]in favour of a place where there is plenty of Potas. [24 Nov 05 WC 6.084] --- From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 27 14:37:46 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 08:37:46 -0600 Subject: MVS 'eight' (Re: Behind the 8-ball) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Michael McCafferty asks: > As many of you know, the Miami-Illinois term for "eight" /paraani/ is, as > Bob Rankin pointed out in an article in IJAL several years ago, a > borrowing from a Siouan language. Tutelo typically gets the nod. > > Can anyone suggest why this happened? No, not that Bob wrote it up, but > that such a borrowing occurred. It's one of the strangest things. I > imagine, since we're talking numbers, that it was borrowed probably in the > process of trading. But does the number 8 have any mythological meaning? An alternative analysis that I have offered in the past is that Miami-Illinois paraare (later palaani) 'eight' might come from a source in Mississippi Valley something like Ioway-Otoe. The Tutelo form (per Oliverio) is pala'ani, in the system: Tu 'two' noN'oNpaa 'three' la'ani(N) 'six' aka'aspee ~ akaaspe'e 'seven' saako'omiNiN 'eight' pala'ani(N) Disregarding variation in vowel marking for length and accent, the variants are essentially palali and palani. This reflects l > n / __ VN - the final vowel of 'three' is iN - an allophonic change not always indicated in Hale's transcriptions. Biloxi and Ofo have Bi Of 'two' noN'pa nuN'pha 'three' da'n(N) ta'ni(N) 'six' akaxpe' akape' 'seven' noN'pahudi fa'kumi(N) 'eight' dan'hudi' pa'tani(N) In Mississippi Valley we find: Te OP IO Wi 'two' nuN'pa naNba' nuN(uN)'we nuNuN'p 'three' ya'mni(N) dha'bdhiN da(a)'i daani' 'six' s^a'kpe s^a'ppe sa(a)'gwe ha(a)kewe' 'seven' s^ako'wiN ppe'naNba sa(a)'hmaN s^aagoo'wiN 'eight' s^aglo'gha ppe'dhabdhiN greeraa'briN harumaN'k The reconstructions supported by these forms are: 'two' *nuNuN'pa 'three' *raa'priN 'six' *s^aa'kpe ~ *(a)kaa's^pe (with metathesis) 'seven' *s^aakoowiN ~ *s^aakwaN (Winnebago looks like a Dakota loan) 'eight' ??? For 'eight' we find Dakota s^aglo'gha, which follows in the *s^aak- series, but is otherwise unattested, Winnebago harumaN'k, which seems to be something like 'lying on it (by hand)', and a collection of forms that seem to be derived from 'three', i.e., presumably forms that indicate something like 'five' (or a hand of fingers) + 'three'. In Dhegiha and Biloxi there are parallel forms for 'seven' based on 'two'. (Note that other Dhegiha doesn't always agree with Omaha-Ponca; Osage, for example, has hki'etopa, apparently referring to a pair of fours.) The formations for 'eight' forms based on 'three' differ, but Tutelo and Ofo seem to have *pa or perhaps *hpa followed by their respective reflexes of 'three', while Dhegiha has *hpe followed by its reflex of three. Dhegiha also uses the *hpe-construction with 'seven'. The meaning of *(h)pa or *hpe is unknown, but it might perhaps be *hpa 'nose, head' (pan-Siouan) or *hpe 'forehead' (MV only). Speculatively finger gestures unward or near the head might have been opposed to ones elsewhere to indicate the upper five of the decade. IO has an indiosyncratic formation with *kre + 'three'. What is interesting here is that the form of 'three' exemplified is not the form of 'three' found in the simple form. IO and Winnebago agree in having reflexes of *RaaniN for 'three'. The simplification of the medial cluster *pr to *R is exhibited elsewhere in these languages in initials of noun (cf. IO nyiN(iN), Wi niNiN for 'water') and medially in 'bean' (IO uNnyiNe, Wi huNuNniN'k) vs. Da mniN 'water' or omni(N)c^a 'bean'. So -raabriN in greeraa'briN seems a poor match with IO historical phonology. It stands out from daa'i like tertiary or ternary or trinary stand out from three in English. I would suggest then that IO 'eight' is probably a loan from a loan from a MV language where raabriN or something like it was the usual form for 'three'. The big problem with this is that no other Siouan language has the *kre- construction for 'eight' (or even 'seven'). This is either an insurmountable problem or an interesting suggestion that we don't have a full range of Siouan languages to work with, depending on your point of view. Whenever I'm out on this limb, I always ask myself, if greeraa'briN is a loan, what might it have replaced? Presumably something within the range of 'eight' forms we know from other Siouan languages, and one of those possibilities there is a form based on *hpa or *hpe + 'three', which, if IO 'three' is any basis on which to judge, would have been something like *hpaRaaniN or *hpeRaaniN. Either of these forms seems to me to be as likely a source of Miami-Illinois paraare ~ palaani 'eight' as the Tutelo (or Ofo) forms, though, of course, there is little to chose between with any of them as far as form, once you start mapping "r" sounds. As to how such a form could have gotten into Miami-Illinois, the usual scenario with Tutelo (or Ofo or a hypothetical early form of Biloxi or some form of Proto-Southeastern) is trade interactions leading to MI borrowing of the source numeral system, or, at least of some of its numeral terms, with 'eight' ending up a fossilized relict of this situation. But if the source is MV Siouan we have a new scenario to consider. We know that the Michigamea at least among the Illinois tribes spoke a rather different language, and we have some evidence that it may have been a Siouan language. In that case, perhaps, a Siouan form for 'eight' might be a relict of the fusion of Siouan-speaking groups into MI. In which case, perhaps paraare or palaani may represent the Michigamea form of 'eight', which, as I've shown, is rather like what a hypothetical *hpa-based "regular" form of 'eight' might have looked like in early IO. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Tue Apr 27 15:10:48 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 10:10:48 -0500 Subject: white apple Message-ID: Siouan names for white apple, Indian breadroot (Pediomelum esculentum): Dakota t?-psiN-na, T. -la (Riggs) Hidatsa ah? (Matthews, Maximilian) Mandan mah? (Maximilian) Alan From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Tue Apr 27 15:14:30 2004 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Q.) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 10:14:30 -0500 Subject: travel to Wayne In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Catherine and all, I just got tickets on American Airlines to arrive from DFW on June 10 at 10:59am in Omaha. The connections and prices for Sioux City were very undesirable. Is anyone else arriving in Omaha at around that time on June 10? What are the possibilities for ride-sharing, car-rental sharing or bus connections to Wayne? Departing Sunday from Omaha at 3:21 pm. Carolyn Quintero From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Tue Apr 27 15:40:54 2004 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 10:40:54 -0500 Subject: travel to Wayne Message-ID: Possibilities for bus connections: Nil. There is basically no public transportation in Nebraska Possibilities for ride/rental sharing: I wouldn't mind making an airport run on the 10th and one on the 13th. If everyone who is flying in will send me their schedules, I'll try to coordinate rides, either by me picking up a group, or else by sharing a rental. Glad you're coming, Carolyn! Catherine "Carolyn Q." et> cc: Sent by: Subject: travel to Wayne owner-siouan at lists.c olorado.edu 04/27/04 10:14 AM Please respond to siouan Hello Catherine and all, I just got tickets on American Airlines to arrive from DFW on June 10 at 10:59am in Omaha. The connections and prices for Sioux City were very undesirable. Is anyone else arriving in Omaha at around that time on June 10? What are the possibilities for ride-sharing, car-rental sharing or bus connections to Wayne? Departing Sunday from Omaha at 3:21 pm. Carolyn Quintero From Rgraczyk at aol.com Tue Apr 27 16:01:35 2004 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Randolph Graczyk) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 12:01:35 EDT Subject: white apple Message-ID: In a message dated 4/27/2004 9:23:09 AM Mountain Daylight Time, ahartley at d.umn.edu writes: > Siouan names for white apple, Indian breadroot (Pediomelum esculentum): > > Dakota t?-psiN-na, T. -la (Riggs) > Hidatsa ah? (Matthews, Maximilian) > Mandan mah? (Maximilian) > > Alan > > The Crow form is ihi'. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Apr 27 16:04:19 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 09:04:19 -0700 Subject: MVS 'eight' Message-ID: I have some serious misgivings with the idea that M-I 'eight' is borrowed from Iowa-Otoe and not Tutelo. My objections fall into two categories, linguistic and geographic. In terms of the linguistics, I think it's risky and unnecessary to link the Miami-Illinois forms to a hypothetical, unattested, archaic Iowa-Otoe form, */hpaRaaniN/~*/hpeRaaniN/, especially when the only *attested* I-O form is so different (/greeraa'briN/). Moreover, hypothetical Old Iowa-Otoe */hpaRaaniN/~*/hpeRaaniN/ is actually NOT as good a match for the Miami-Illinois forms; the relevant M-I forms for 'eight' are /paraare/ and /palaani/. These perfectly reflect the two attested Tutelo variants and . With Tutelo we have a language that actually ATTESTS both the variants found in Miami-Illinois. Thus, we get the Miami-Illinois r/n variation for free by saying it's a Tutelo loan. I don't think a loan from I-O */hpaRaaniN/~*/hpeRaaniN/ would do that. By assuming the M-I forms are borrowed from Tutelo, we don't have to hypothesize anything at all. We have to hypothesize quite a lot if we say M-I borrowed the word from Iowa-Otoe. My geographic objection is more hypothetical, but the gist of it is that when you start to trace where the M-I speakers were in the earliest historical times, or where they would have been pre-1492, the evidence strongly hints that they were a good deal further EAST than they were at first contact. From all evidence, the Illinois were very recent arrivals into what is now Illinois, possibly not entering that area at all until the Iroquois Wars. When you go further back in time, it starts looking like the M-I speakers were in Indiana before they were in Illinois, and in Ohio before they were in Indiana. That puts them in a place where it's more likely they would have interacted with Tutelo speakers than with I-O speakers, and WAY more likely than them interacting with Michigamea speakers. The M-I speakers' presence in the Michigamea area was probably very recent. Of course, this whole argument could be settled if other clear Tutelo loans into Miami-Illinois could be found, other than just 'eight'. After a fair deal of looking, I've never been able to find any. It seems to be the only word the M-I's borrowed from Tutelo, unless you say that the oddly deformed M-I word for 'six', /kaakaathswi/, is perhaps *influenced* by Tutelo /aka'aspee/. But I'm not really committed to that idea. David >> Michael McCafferty asks: >> As many of you know, the Miami-Illinois term for "eight" /paraani/ is, as >> Bob Rankin pointed out in an article in IJAL several years ago, a >> borrowing from a Siouan language. Tutelo typically gets the nod. >> >> Can anyone suggest why this happened? No, not that Bob wrote it up, but >> that such a borrowing occurred. It's one of the strangest things. I >> imagine, since we're talking numbers, that it was borrowed probably in the >> process of trading. But does the number 8 have any mythological meaning? > > An alternative analysis that I have offered in the past is that > Miami-Illinois paraare (later palaani) 'eight' might come from a source in > Mississippi Valley something like Ioway-Otoe. > > The Tutelo form (per Oliverio) is pala'ani, in the system: > Tu > 'two' noN'oNpaa > 'three' la'ani(N) > 'six' aka'aspee ~ akaaspe'e > 'seven' saako'omiNiN > 'eight' pala'ani(N) > > Disregarding variation in vowel marking for length and accent, the > variants are essentially palali and palani. This reflects l > n / __ VN - > the final vowel of 'three' is iN - an allophonic change not always > indicated in Hale's transcriptions. > > Biloxi and Ofo have > Bi Of > 'two' noN'pa nuN'pha > 'three' da'n(N) ta'ni(N) > 'six' akaxpe' akape' > 'seven' noN'pahudi fa'kumi(N) > 'eight' dan'hudi' pa'tani(N) > > In Mississippi Valley we find: > Te OP IO Wi > 'two' nuN'pa naNba' nuN(uN)'we nuNuN'p > 'three' ya'mni(N) dha'bdhiN da(a)'i daani' > 'six' s^a'kpe s^a'ppe sa(a)'gwe ha(a)kewe' > 'seven' s^ako'wiN ppe'naNba sa(a)'hmaN s^aagoo'wiN > 'eight' s^aglo'gha ppe'dhabdhiN greeraa'briN harumaN'k > > The reconstructions supported by these forms are: > > 'two' *nuNuN'pa > 'three' *raa'priN > 'six' *s^aa'kpe ~ *(a)kaa's^pe (with metathesis) > 'seven' *s^aakoowiN ~ *s^aakwaN (Winnebago looks like a Dakota loan) > 'eight' ??? > > For 'eight' we find Dakota s^aglo'gha, which follows in the *s^aak- > series, but is otherwise unattested, Winnebago harumaN'k, which seems to > be something like 'lying on it (by hand)', and a collection of forms that > seem to be derived from 'three', i.e., presumably forms that indicate > something like 'five' (or a hand of fingers) + 'three'. In Dhegiha and > Biloxi there are parallel forms for 'seven' based on 'two'. (Note that > other Dhegiha doesn't always agree with Omaha-Ponca; Osage, for example, > has hki'etopa, apparently referring to a pair of fours.) > > The formations for 'eight' forms based on 'three' differ, but Tutelo and > Ofo seem to have *pa or perhaps *hpa followed by their respective reflexes > of 'three', while Dhegiha has *hpe followed by its reflex of three. > Dhegiha also uses the *hpe-construction with 'seven'. The meaning of > *(h)pa or *hpe is unknown, but it might perhaps be *hpa 'nose, head' > (pan-Siouan) or *hpe 'forehead' (MV only). Speculatively finger gestures > unward or near the head might have been opposed to ones elsewhere to > indicate the upper five of the decade. > > IO has an indiosyncratic formation with *kre + 'three'. What is > interesting here is that the form of 'three' exemplified is not the form > of 'three' found in the simple form. IO and Winnebago agree in having > reflexes of *RaaniN for 'three'. The simplification of the medial cluster > *pr to *R is exhibited elsewhere in these languages in initials of noun > (cf. IO nyiN(iN), Wi niNiN for 'water') and medially in 'bean' (IO > uNnyiNe, Wi huNuNniN'k) vs. Da mniN 'water' or omni(N)c^a 'bean'. So > -raabriN in greeraa'briN seems a poor match with IO historical phonology. > It stands out from daa'i like tertiary or ternary or trinary stand out > from three in English. > > I would suggest then that IO 'eight' is probably a loan from a loan from a > MV language where raabriN or something like it was the usual form for > 'three'. The big problem with this is that no other Siouan language has > the *kre- construction for 'eight' (or even 'seven'). This is either an > insurmountable problem or an interesting suggestion that we don't have a > full range of Siouan languages to work with, depending on your point of > view. > > Whenever I'm out on this limb, I always ask myself, if greeraa'briN is a > loan, what might it have replaced? Presumably something within the range > of 'eight' forms we know from other Siouan languages, and one of those > possibilities there is a form based on *hpa or *hpe + 'three', which, if > IO 'three' is any basis on which to judge, would have been something like > *hpaRaaniN or *hpeRaaniN. Either of these forms seems to me to be as > likely a source of Miami-Illinois paraare ~ palaani 'eight' as the Tutelo > (or Ofo) forms, though, of course, there is little to chose between with > any of them as far as form, once you start mapping "r" sounds. > > As to how such a form could have gotten into Miami-Illinois, the usual > scenario with Tutelo (or Ofo or a hypothetical early form of Biloxi or > some form of Proto-Southeastern) is trade interactions leading to MI > borrowing of the source numeral system, or, at least of some of its > numeral terms, with 'eight' ending up a fossilized relict of this > situation. But if the source is MV Siouan we have a new scenario to > consider. We know that the Michigamea at least among the Illinois tribes > spoke a rather different language, and we have some evidence that it may > have been a Siouan language. In that case, perhaps, a Siouan form for > 'eight' might be a relict of the fusion of Siouan-speaking groups into MI. > In which case, perhaps paraare or palaani may represent the Michigamea > form of 'eight', which, as I've shown, is rather like what a hypothetical > *hpa-based "regular" form of 'eight' might have looked like in early IO. > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 27 16:19:15 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 10:19:15 -0600 Subject: travel to Wayne In-Reply-To: <000901c42c6a$56cf05a0$1009500a@carolynwe2gywq> Message-ID: I'm thinking of driving out from Denver. Normally I'd go north of Omaha, cutting north at Grand Island, but if none of the Kansans are coming through Omaha I could make an exception. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 27 16:20:38 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 10:20:38 -0600 Subject: travel to Wayne In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > Possibilities for bus connections: Nil. There is basically no public > transportation in Nebraska So, nothing's changed since 1985? From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 27 16:31:25 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 10:31:25 -0600 Subject: white apple In-Reply-To: <408E77F8.4040807@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > Siouan names for white apple, Indian breadroot (Pediomelum esculentum): > > Dakota t?-psiN-na, T. -la (Riggs) Sa thipsiN=na (=daN > =na / VN__) Te thipsiN=la =daN, =la are, of course, the diminutive. Roots of the form *pSi ~ *pSiN (S = s, s^) are common in Siouan roots for aquatic plants with edible parts, especially edible roots (no pun intended). I believe we've been through that fairly recently and the forms are all in the archives. > Hidatsa ahi' (Matthews, Maximilian) Crow ihi' (Graczyk) > Mandan mah? (Maximilian) From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Apr 27 17:33:42 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 12:33:42 -0500 Subject: travel to Wayne In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I live not too far from Omaha, and I could offer a ride to one stout person or two skinny ones if my truck gets fixed by then. Keep me in mind as a fall-back option anyway. ;-) Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 27 18:13:45 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 12:13:45 -0600 Subject: Rood's Law (Re: white apple) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > Sa =daN > =na / VN__ This, of course, is Rood's Law, at least until we can come up with something for that name with a bit more moment than a minor case in the realization of a diminutive. Anyway, I learned this conditioning from David. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Apr 27 18:20:27 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 13:20:27 -0500 Subject: MVS 'eight' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David wrote: > My geographic objection is more hypothetical, but the gist of it is that > when you start to trace where the M-I speakers were in the earliest > historical times, or where they would have been pre-1492, the evidence > strongly hints that they were a good deal further EAST than they were at > first contact. From all evidence, the Illinois were very recent arrivals > into what is now Illinois, possibly not entering that area at all until the > Iroquois Wars. When you go further back in time, it starts looking like the > M-I speakers were in Indiana before they were in Illinois, and in Ohio > before they were in Indiana. That puts them in a place where it's more > likely they would have interacted with Tutelo speakers than with I-O > speakers, and WAY more likely than them interacting with Michigamea > speakers. The M-I speakers' presence in the Michigamea area was probably > very recent. Would this still be an objection if the early I-O speakers were originally located further to the east themselves? The sacred Legend recorded in Fletcher and La Flesche specifies that the Iowa were with the Omaha (Dhegihans?) when the latter made their luckless migration across the Mississippi after moving down the Ohio. Do we know who was living in the Indiana-Illinois area prior to the spread of the Miami-Illinois southwest from Lake Erie and the Maumee river region? I think we need to establish that these were not early Chiwere speakers before we rule out John's suggestion on geographical grounds. Oh, and exactly where is the Michigamea area? I think I missed this. Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 27 18:19:57 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 12:19:57 -0600 Subject: Denver to Wayne Message-ID: Looks like David Rood and I will be driving to Wayne together. He asks if anyone else is interested in getting there via Denver? kkk From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Apr 27 18:32:55 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 11:32:55 -0700 Subject: MVS 'eight' Message-ID: >> My geographic objection is more hypothetical, but the gist of it is that when >> you start to trace where the M-I speakers were in the earliest historical >> times, or where they would have been pre-1492, the evidence strongly hints >> that they were a good deal further EAST than they were at first contact. From >> all evidence, the Illinois were very recent arrivals into what is now >> Illinois, possibly not entering that area at all until the Iroquois Wars. >> When you go further back in time, it starts looking like the M-I speakers >> were in Indiana before they were in Illinois, and in Ohio before they were in >> Indiana. That puts them in a place where it's more likely they would have >> interacted with Tutelo speakers than with I-O speakers, and WAY more likely >> than them interacting with Michigamea speakers. The M-I speakers' presence in >> the Michigamea area was probably very recent. > Would this still be an objection if the early I-O speakers were originally > located further to the east themselves? The sacred Legend recorded in Fletcher > and La Flesche specifies that the Iowa were with the Omaha (Dhegihans?) when > the latter made their luckless migration across the Mississippi after moving > down the Ohio. Well, that would have been my next question... I imagine that when M-I speakers entered Indiana and Illinois (early 1600's?) whoever they bumped out probably spoke some kind of Siouan language. Maybe these were Chiwere speakers, maybe they were Dhegihans. This is really the realm of archaeology, tho, where I'm not qualified to speak. Does anyone know anything about where those groups were thought to be 400-500 years ago, based on archaeology? Anyway, my point is just that *before* the early population disruptions triggered by the Iroquois wars, I suspect the M-I speakers were closer to OVS speakers than to MVS speakers. > Do we know who was living in the Indiana-Illinois area prior to the spread of > the Miami-Illinois southwest from Lake Erie and the Maumee river region? I > think we need to establish that these were not early Chiwere speakers before > we rule out John's suggestion on geographical grounds. I understand your point. And this is why I consider my linguistic argumentation to be more important here than the geographical argumentation. Making arguments based on who was where in North America 500 years ago is always going to be conjectural. > Oh, and exactly where is the Michigamea area? I think I missed this. According to Ives's map, southeastern Missouri and northeastern Arkansas. Tho who *knows* where they were before that... Dave From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Tue Apr 27 20:27:11 2004 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Q.) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 15:27:11 -0500 Subject: travel to Wayne In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Reading between the lines, I think John is offering to pick me/us up at the Omaha airport on the 10th? Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of Koontz John E Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 11:19 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: travel to Wayne I'm thinking of driving out from Denver. Normally I'd go north of Omaha, cutting north at Grand Island, but if none of the Kansans are coming through Omaha I could make an exception. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 27 20:50:50 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 14:50:50 -0600 Subject: travel to Wayne In-Reply-To: <000601c42c96$0512a100$1009500a@carolynwe2gywq> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Carolyn Q. wrote: > Reading between the lines, I think John is offering to pick me/us up at the > Omaha airport on the 10th? Yes, although now your/y'all's ride depends on David, since he and I are carpooling, and he's driving. From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Tue Apr 27 20:55:53 2004 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Q.) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 15:55:53 -0500 Subject: travel to Wayne In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ok....how does David feel about this? (So I can either stop or start worrying about it.) Is anyone else flying into Omaha on June 10? Thanks, Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of Koontz John E Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 3:51 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: travel to Wayne On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Carolyn Q. wrote: > Reading between the lines, I think John is offering to pick me/us up at the > Omaha airport on the 10th? Yes, although now your/y'all's ride depends on David, since he and I are carpooling, and he's driving. From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Tue Apr 27 22:06:29 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 16:06:29 -0600 Subject: travel to Wayne In-Reply-To: <000601c42c96$0512a100$1009500a@carolynwe2gywq> Message-ID: We need to be sure to coordinate this. I'm going to be driving and John will be my passenger, but we probably won't get to eastern Nebraska until toward evening. Catherine, I think you should collect a list of people and arrival times and see if you need help with transportation. I'd be happy to do an airport run if I'm there in time. Carolyn, you better make firm arrangements with Catherine rather than with me or John. Best to all, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Carolyn Q. wrote: > Reading between the lines, I think John is offering to pick me/us up at the > Omaha airport on the 10th? > Carolyn > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of Koontz John E > Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 11:19 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: travel to Wayne > > > I'm thinking of driving out from Denver. Normally I'd go north of Omaha, > cutting north at Grand Island, but if none of the Kansans are coming > through Omaha I could make an exception. > > > From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Tue Apr 27 22:22:41 2004 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Q.) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 17:22:41 -0500 Subject: travel to Wayne In-Reply-To: Message-ID: OK, thanks David, I'll continue to coordinate through/with Catherine. Probably most folks haven't made firm plans yet. I'm surprised at myself to be this early. Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of ROOD DAVID S Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 5:06 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: travel to Wayne We need to be sure to coordinate this. I'm going to be driving and John will be my passenger, but we probably won't get to eastern Nebraska until toward evening. Catherine, I think you should collect a list of people and arrival times and see if you need help with transportation. I'd be happy to do an airport run if I'm there in time. Carolyn, you better make firm arrangements with Catherine rather than with me or John. Best to all, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Carolyn Q. wrote: > Reading between the lines, I think John is offering to pick me/us up at the > Omaha airport on the 10th? > Carolyn > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of Koontz John E > Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 11:19 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: travel to Wayne > > > I'm thinking of driving out from Denver. Normally I'd go north of Omaha, > cutting north at Grand Island, but if none of the Kansans are coming > through Omaha I could make an exception. > > > From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Wed Apr 28 01:45:31 2004 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:45:31 -0500 Subject: travel to Wayne Message-ID: Yes, I'll keep a list of arrival times and driving routes and such, as people let me know their plans, and in a few weeks we can match riders up with cars. So far we've got more ride offers (John/David and Rory) than ridees (Carolyn), but a couple of other people have mentioned flying without naming specific times, so there may be more rides wanted as everyone's plans get finalized. Keep those paper titles coming... I've heard from a dozen or so people so far, with lots of fascinating paper topics! Best, Catherine OK, thanks David, I'll continue to coordinate through/with Catherine. Probably most folks haven't made firm plans yet. I'm surprised at myself to be this early. Carolyn -----Original Message----- We need to be sure to coordinate this. I'm going to be driving and John will be my passenger, but we probably won't get to eastern Nebraska until toward evening. Catherine, I think you should collect a list of people and arrival times and see if you need help with transportation. I'd be happy to do an airport run if I'm there in time. Carolyn, you better make firm arrangements with Catherine rather than with me or John. Best to all, David From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 28 05:50:30 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 23:50:30 -0600 Subject: MVS 'eight' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, David Costa wrote: > In terms of the linguistics, I think it's risky and unnecessary to link > the Miami-Illinois forms to a hypothetical, unattested, archaic > Iowa-Otoe form, */hpaRaaniN/~*/hpeRaaniN/, especially when the only > *attested* I-O form is so different (/greeraa'briN/). I think this is more of a methodological objection than a linguistic one, though I certainly concede the reasonableness of methodological objections. Clearly you wouldn't object to a linguistic argument that English tert-iary isn't native in English because it doesn't exhibit the same pattern of Indo-European sound correspondences exhibited in third, but part of what might make you happier with that objection is the weight of data on English, the English lexicon, and Indo-European sound correspondences. We have more detailed information on English than we have on Ioway-Otoe. Even if I more or less corectly hypothesized ?third(iary) on a basis of other *t sets, you suspect I was treading on shifting sands one way or another. So it seems to me that you reject the number of hypotheses necessary, rather than the linguistic basis of the argument. Note: To be perfectly fair I have noticed some glitches with my "must be a loan" argument which I will elaborate upon separately. > Moreover, hypothetical Old Iowa-Otoe */hpaRaaniN/~*/hpeRaaniN/ is actually > NOT as good a match for the Miami-Illinois forms; the relevant M-I forms for > 'eight' are /paraare/ and /palaani/. These perfectly reflect the two > attested Tutelo variants and . > With Tutelo we have a language that actually ATTESTS both the variants > found in Miami-Illinois. The Tutelo variants are alternate perceptions of one thing, not a perceived alternation between two things. We can be reasonably certain that these two Tutelo variants are simply two different non-native perceptions of invariant /palaaniN/ (or we could write /palaaliN/, depending on our orthographical preferences). The same sort of perceptual variation occurs repeatedly when outsiders are faced with Siouan resonants. They would arise just as nicely with IO *hpaRaaniN as with Tutelo palaaniN. Of course, I should have written IO *phadaaniN, since PSi *hp becomes /ph/ and *R is /d ~ j^ ~ n/ in IO, depending on the next vowel's low-backness, high-frontness or nasality. So, putting myself in the place of a Nathaniel Hale or a speaker of Miami-Illinois trying to deal with an IO form like *phadaaniN, and assuming I heard all apical resonants as r or n, I might well write or perceive padaari ~ padaani. As far as d vs. r, while no one reports any difference between *R and *t in IO at present, it's likely the *R reflexes were more r-like than d in the past. Nevertheless, the d vs. r problem is potentially more serious than the r vs. n vs. l one. As I recall, Bob Rankin opted for Tutelo over Ofo partly because he though Tutelo l more like MI r or n than Ofo t (which might have been rather d-like). > My geographic objection is more hypothetical, but the gist of it is that > when you start to trace where the M-I speakers were in the earliest > historical times, or where they would have been pre-1492, the evidence > strongly hints that they were a good deal further EAST than they were at > first contact. From all evidence, the Illinois were very recent arrivals > into what is now Illinois, possibly not entering that area at all until > the Iroquois Wars. When you go further back in time, it starts looking > like the M-I speakers were in Indiana before they were in Illinois, and > in Ohio before they were in Indiana. That puts them in a place where > it's more likely they would have interacted with Tutelo speakers than > with I-O speakers, and WAY more likely than them interacting with > Michigamea speakers. The M-I speakers' presence in the Michigamea area > was probably very recent. But why do we need to assume that the Siouan 'eight' forms go as far back in MI as we can push them? We don't have any evidence of them, perforce, before contact. Could they have been borrowed after MI moved westward to the vicinity of the Mississippi? > Of course, this whole argument could be settled if other clear Tutelo loans > into Miami-Illinois could be found, other than just 'eight'. After a fair > deal of looking, I've never been able to find any. It seems to be the only > word the M-I's borrowed from Tutelo, unless you say that the oddly deformed > M-I word for 'six', /kaakaathswi/, is perhaps *influenced* by Tutelo > /aka'aspee/. But I'm not really committed to that idea. Tutelo /aka'aspee/ is definitely a clear Southeastern form. How does the MI 'six' form differ from other Algonquian forms? I wonder bacause I'd be tempted to call the Southeastern 'six' forms '"oddly deformed," too! From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 28 07:09:36 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 01:09:36 -0600 Subject: MVS 'eight' (Re: Behind the 8-ball) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: A few corrections and additional comments. > 'three' la'ani(N) Here I mean to represent an accented long vowel as deduced by Oliverio. Maybe I should have written aa'. Anyway, as usual ' is not a glottal stop. > Biloxi and Ofo have > Bi Of > 'two' noN'pa nuN'pha With Biloxi and Ofo I'm just adapting Dorsey as adapted by Swanton and Swanton, respectively, though I'm aiming at a hypothetical phonemicization of the data. > In Mississippi Valley we find: > Te OP IO Wi > 'three' ya'mni(N) dha'bdhiN da(a)'i daani' > 'seven' s^ako'wiN ppe'naNba sa(a)'hmaN s^aagoo'wiN > 'eight' s^aglo'gha ppe'dhabdhiN greeraa'briN harumaN'k > > The reconstructions supported by these forms are: > > 'seven' *s^aakoowiN ~ *s^aakwaN (Winnebago looks like a Dakota loan) I'm assuming that we should expect something more like the IO form in Wi, maybe *s^aagamaN or *s^aagamiN. The attested Wi form is exactly the Da form rendered in Wi orthography, while the IO differs considerably in detail and looks like it comes from PreIO *s^aakwaN, which would lead to Wi *s^aagamaN if it were also the Proto-Winnebago-Chiwere form. > *Entirely* Speculatively finger gestures u*p*ward or near the head might > have been opposed to ones elsewhere to indicate the upper five of the > decade. > IO has an indiosyncratic formation with *kre + 'three'. What is > interesting here is that the form of 'three' exemplified is not the form > of 'three' found in the simple form. IO and Winnebago agree in having > reflexes of *RaaniN for 'three'. The simplification of the medial cluster > *pr to *R ... Oops - very obscure. The initial *R here is required by initial IO d ~ j^ : Wi d (often written t in the sources). A real (initial) *t becomes (initial) j^ in Winnebago, so this is *RaaniN, not *taaniN, because Winnebago has daaniN', not *j^aaniN'. IO doesn't distinguish *t and *R, but Winnebago does. However, this *R is apparently irregular; some sort of reanalysis or analogy is indicated. The rest of Siouan seems pretty convinced that PSi had *rapriN 'three' (cf. Da yamni(N) or OP dhabdhiN). IO and Wi seem to arbitrarily convert the initial *r to *R. I actually referred to *R in connection with the medial *pr. Initial *pr in nouns does become *R in IO and Winnebago, cf. Teton ble 'lake', but IO j^e(e)' and Wi tee'. If the following vowel is nasal, *R is realized as n (or *r before a nasal vowel), as in *priN 'water', cf. Teton mniN', IO iN(iN)' and Wi niNiN'. In 'three' in IO and Winnebago this reduction of *pr to *R or actually to *r before a nasal vowel has occurred medially. In referring to *pr to *R I was thinking of of the way that IO and Winnebago have medial n where Teton has mn and OP has bdh. I mentioned 'bean' as another example in which *pr appears as *r before a nasal vowel (i.e., a surface n). I have now thought of a problem case in which *pr appears as unsimplified *pr medially in IO and Winnebago. Awkwardly enough it's another number! It's *kyepraN 'ten': Te OP IO Wi 'ten' (wi)kc^emna(N) gdheb(dh)aN grebraN kerepaNnaN'(iz^aN) In these forms Teton wi and Wi -iz^aN are both 'one' multipliers. (Probably - I'd expect wiN- in Teton.) OP has gdhebdhaN in Say's list from the early 1800s, but has gdhebaN everywhere in both dialects today. This is an irregular and arbitrary simplification of the form that seems to have caught on. The important thing to note is that IO has gre(e)'*br*aN and Winnebago has kere*paNn*aN. In this (numeral) form (also) medial *prVN does not reduce to nVN. One could argue that at last some medial *pr do not reduce and that *kreeraapriN 'eight' was somehow exempted from whatever processes converted PSi *raapriN 'three' to *RaaniN in Proto-WC. This implies, of course, that *kreeraapriN existed in Proto-WC or that *raapriN 'three' survived into Pre-IO where it led to the production of *kreeraapriN 'eight' and then changed to *RaaniN 'three' in IO and Wi independently. Anyway, we have an exception, though not a nice simple solution. It looks lik we'd expect IO *gre(e)'naN 'ten', but we don't find it. (Or Wi *kerenaN'.) Notice that the IO initial gree- in 'eight' could actually be from *kye, like the initial syllable in 'ten'. > Whenever I'm out on this limb, I always ask myself, if greeraa'briN is a > loan, what might it have replaced? Presumably something within the range > of 'eight' forms we know from other Siouan languages, and one of those > possibilities there is a form based on *hpa or *hpe + 'three', which, if > IO 'three' is any basis on which to judge, would have been something like > *hpaRaaniN or *hpeRaaniN. Or *phadaaniN or *phedaaniN to put things in something more like contemporary IO form and less like Proto-Siouan. These are modelled on Tutelo/Ofo and on Dhegiha, respectively, of course. Other possible antecedents might be *gre(e)daaniN (modelled on IO) or *saagroxa (modelled on Dakotan) or *arumaNe ~ *arumaNe (modelled on Winnebago), to appeal to other attested forms of 'eight' in Mississippi Valley Siouan. The attraction in appealing to Ioway-Otoe or possibly Michigamea (if a Siouan language) over Tutelo is entirely geographical. Ioway-Otoe was spoken next door to Miami-Illinois at contact, while Michigamea was spoken by some outlying or soon to be portions of the Illinois confederacy at contact - people who later were merged into the MI linguistic population. Tutelo, on the other hand was spoken east of the Appalachians in Piedmont Virginia, while Ofo was spoken in Arkansas. No contact of either with MI in the historical period is documented and no intimate contact in that period seems possible on general grounds of adjacency, unless perhaps between Michigamea and Ofo. We do, of course, hypothesize that Tutelo and Ofo were earlier spoken somewhere near the Ohio, or at least that their antecedents were once spoken near(er) the main body of Siouan languages. The latter is an absolutely minimal and necessary assumption, in fact. Siouan languages arise from earlier Siouan languages. They never come into existence spontaneously. But we know far less about when and where contact between MI (or early Algonquian) and Tutelo (or Ofo) (or early Southeastern Siouan) was possible than about when and where contact between MI and IO or MI and Michigamea was possible. In fact we can only hypothesize that contact between MI and Southeastern Siouan was ever possible. The strong Tutelo character of MI 'eight' form is actually part of the evidence supporting the surprising hypothesis of MI-Tutelo contact, rather than the Tutelo origin of MI 'eight' being rendered more plausible by the likelihood of MI-Tutelo contact. That's my case for a Mississippi Valley source of MI paraare. I admit it's not particularly strong and I don't want to suggest that we should so more than consider it as a footnote to Bob's Tutelo explanation. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Apr 28 13:24:35 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:24:35 -0500 Subject: MVS 'eight' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, David Costa wrote: > > >> My geographic objection is more hypothetical, but the gist of it is that when > >> you start to trace where the M-I speakers were in the earliest historical > >> times, or where they would have been pre-1492, the evidence strongly hints > >> that they were a good deal further EAST than they were at first contact. From > >> all evidence, the Illinois were very recent arrivals into what is now > >> Illinois, possibly not entering that area at all until the Iroquois Wars. > >> When you go further back in time, it starts looking like the M-I speakers > >> were in Indiana before they were in Illinois, and in Ohio before they were in > >> Indiana. That puts them in a place where it's more likely they would have > >> interacted with Tutelo speakers than with I-O speakers, and WAY more likely > >> than them interacting with Michigamea speakers. The M-I speakers' presence in > >> the Michigamea area was probably very recent. > > > Would this still be an objection if the early I-O speakers were originally > > located further to the east themselves? The sacred Legend recorded in Fletcher > > and La Flesche specifies that the Iowa were with the Omaha (Dhegihans?) when > > the latter made their luckless migration across the Mississippi after moving > > down the Ohio. > > Well, that would have been my next question... I imagine that when M-I > speakers entered Indiana and Illinois (early 1600's?) whoever they bumped > out probably spoke some kind of Siouan language. Bob Hall at the Field Museum in Chicago, a good archaeologist, has probably done the most in figuring out this piece of the puzzle, at least with respect to northeastern Indiana/Chicago area. I don't have access at the moment to a list of his publications on the topic, but the gist of it is that he believes the Winnebago were the resident native population before the Miami-Illinois folks moved westward. He went so far as to place the Winnebago at Chicago when Jean Nicollet dropped in for the first French visit in 1634. That is not correct. The Winnebago were no longer around the area at that time; they'd already moved further north and, in fact, appear to have moved around a lot in the mid-1600s, for obvious reasons. But, all in all, Hall's arguments are sound and convincing, and I believe that "most archaeologists" concur with his conclusions related to the location of the Winnebago in late prehistory. Michael From rankin at ku.edu Wed Apr 28 13:45:03 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:45:03 -0500 Subject: travel to Wayne Message-ID: Make that 1895. ;-) ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: travel to Wayne > > Possibilities for bus connections: Nil. There is basically no public > > transportation in Nebraska > > So, nothing's changed since 1985? > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 28 16:11:53 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 10:11:53 -0600 Subject: "Omaha Sacred Legend" and Oneota (Re: MVS 'eight') In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > Would this still be an objection if the early I-O speakers were > originally located further to the east themselves? The sacred Legend > recorded in Fletcher and La Flesche specifies that the Iowa were with > the Omaha (Dhegihans?) when the latter made their luckless migration > across the Mississippi after moving down the Ohio. I suspect that this legend developed specifically among the mid-1800s Omaha through the process of elaboration and weaving together of certain ingredients into a canonical pseudo-historical legend: - stories made up to explain such etymologies as UmaN'haN 'Omaha' = 'Upstream', Uga'xpa 'Quapaw' = 'Dowstream' - stories made up to explain certain folk etymologies such as 'Ohio' = Uha=i=u 'they followed it' or HuttaNga 'Winnebago' = 'big voice' taken as 'original voice' (not impossible, but less likely than 'big camp circle') - knowledge of the similarity of clan systems between Dhegiha groups - knowledge of the similarity of languages among the Dhegiha group[s, Ioway-Otoe-Missouria, and Winnebago (for some reason the Dakota, though recognized as similar in language, don't usually enter into this) - other ingredients like the Winnebago Moogas^uuc^ lengend The version of this story in Fletcher & LaFlesche is not the oldest version of this story, and some variation occurs between versions in terms of degrees of elaboration. Unfortunately, I've let various versions of the story go by me without making notes on when, where, and what! Etymological stories are a common human phenomenon, and various Siouan examples are familiar to everyone. The tendency to weave bits and pieces together into a combined story is also a centerpiece of human intellectual effort. The problem in this case comes from elevating the result into an oral chronicle of great age recording the early history of the Omaha and other Siouan groups instead of seeing it as a more recent model or hypothesis built to accomodate various simpler bits of information, some of them spurious. > Do we know who was living in the Indiana-Illinois area prior to the > spread of the Miami-Illinois southwest from Lake Erie and the Maumee > river region? I think we need to establish that these were not early > Chiwere speakers before we rule out John's suggestion on geographical > grounds. In general, the northern Illinois and northwestern Indiana areas are associated with a fairly recent influx of Oneota settlements in the early contact period (starting several centuries previous). The area was earlier occupied at least in part by Cahokia outlier communities and I think it is also considered that certain wares and sites are "Woodland." Like "Mississippian" (applied to Cahokia or Oneota) "Woodland" is a very generic term without much real potential ethnic significance compared with, say, a difference between two kinds of Oneota (or any two phases of anything). Oneota presumably represents Mississippi Valley Siouan but probably also some Algonquian, and the mappings between the archaeologists classifications of Oneota phases (local varieties) and modern groups are subject to a fair amount of debate. Oneota starts in northern Iowa, southern Minnesota and souther Wisconsin c. 1000 AD and spreads generally southward (and westward and eastward) up through the contact period, ultimately spreading into eastern South Dakota, eastern Nebraska, eastern Kansas, northern Missouri, a lot of Illinois (including the Cahokia site) and parts of Indiana. The Psinomani (intended for psiN-omaNniN by people who did't understand that some of the n's represented vowel nasalization) Culture now constructed to serve hold the various phases likely to represent Dakotan is a set of rather diverse "Woodland" like phases with some Oneota-like pottery wares. In theory Oneota pottery clay is tempered with burnt, crushed shell and the globular pots are decorated with certain families of patterns varying with the locality but often including an abstract pattern of chevrons, lines, and dots that is thought to represent a falcon's tail, in practice some of the pottery is tempered with other stuff more conveniently available in a given spot and a lot of it is undecorated. Oneota subsistence was a lot like historical Dhegiha or Miami-Illinois subsistence, involving seasonal round between villages and wandering and a mixture of horticulture and hunting and gathering. Oneota people liked to put their villages on the border between two ecological zones near soil easily farmed with digging sticks. They moved their villages fairly frequently and so didn't build up large middens except where sites were occupied repeatedly over time. Since different groups might occupy the same site together or successively it can be very difficult to sort out group variants of their rather similar ceramic wares. From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Wed Apr 28 14:53:44 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 15:53:44 +0100 Subject: travel to Wayne Message-ID: yes, at least you could always rely on Wells Fargo in the good old days.... >>> rankin at ku.edu 28/04/2004 14:45:03 >>> Make that 1895. ;-) ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: travel to Wayne > > Possibilities for bus connections: Nil. There is basically no public > > transportation in Nebraska > > So, nothing's changed since 1985? > > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Apr 28 18:45:47 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 11:45:47 -0700 Subject: 'eight' some more Message-ID: >> In terms of the linguistics, I think it's risky and unnecessary to link the >> Miami-Illinois forms to a hypothetical, unattested, archaic Iowa-Otoe form, >> */hpaRaaniN/~*/hpeRaaniN/, especially when the only *attested* I-O form is so >> different (/greeraa'briN/). > I think this is more of a methodological objection than a linguistic one, Linguistics and its methodology are one and the same thing. > Even if I more or less corectly hypothesized ?third(iary) on a basis of other > *t sets, you suspect I was treading on shifting sands one way or another. So > it seems to me that you reject the number of hypotheses necessary, rather than > the linguistic basis of the argument. I basically feel it's a severe violation of Occam's razor to claim that the M-I forms were borrowed from a hypothetical reconstructed form in one language when actual attested forms that match the M-I words better are known to exist in another language. >> With Tutelo we have a language that actually ATTESTS both the variants found >> in Miami-Illinois. > The Tutelo variants are alternate perceptions of one thing, not a perceived > alternation between two things. I know. But that doesn't really matter for our purposes. It was presumably just allophonic variation in Tutelo, but M-I speakers, who did NOT have allophonic variation in their own language between liquids and /n/, would not have perceived it that way. M-I speakers weren't borrowing the underlying Siouan form, they were borrowing the phonetic Siouan forms. > Nevertheless, the d vs. r problem is potentially more serious than the r vs. n > vs. l one. As I recall, Bob Rankin opted for Tutelo over Ofo partly because > he thought Tutelo l more like MI r or n than Ofo t (which might have been > rather d-like). Right, if an older Chiwere or Ofo form would have been pronounced more like *[pataare] or *[pataani], that probably would have come out in M-I as /pataali/~/pataani/. That would be another fact tilting the argument towards a Tutelo borrowing. >> it starts looking like the M-I speakers were in Indiana before they were in >> Illinois, and in Ohio before they were in Indiana. That puts them in a place >> where it's more likely they would have interacted with Tutelo speakers than >> with I-O speakers, and WAY more likely than them interacting with Michigamea >> speakers. The M-I speakers' presence in the Michigamea area was probably very >> recent. > But why do we need to assume that the Siouan 'eight' forms go as far back in > MI as we can push them? We don't have any evidence of them, perforce, before > contact. Could they have been borrowed after MI moved westward to the > vicinity of the Mississippi? Well, that would leave open the question of why the Siouan loan is attested through *all* known M-I dialects, including Miami. That is, if the word for 'eight' was borrowed by the Illinois from Chiwere speakers around the Mississippi River, why do Indiana Miami and Wea dialects have the word as well? The evidence, both linguistic and historical, seems to indicate that the Illinois/Miami political split probably happened quite soon after the movement of M-I speakers westward into Indiana (early 1600's, I guess), and that the two groups never reconciled, even after the Iroquois wars. So to me, it's more awkward to explain why a word borrowed by the Illinois along the Mississippi River would drift back east to the Miamis in northern Indiana, when the latter had no political affiliation with the Illinois. I think it's easier to assume the borrowing happened a century before that, before the modern dialect/tribal divisions even existed. Tho there must have been some M-I subdialects even then, since two different pronunciations of the Siouan form were preserved. >> Of course, this whole argument could be settled if other clear Tutelo loans >> into Miami-Illinois could be found, other than just 'eight'. After a fair >> deal of looking, I've never been able to find any. It seems to be the only >> word the M-I's borrowed from Tutelo, unless you say that the oddly deformed >> M-I word for 'six', /kaakaathswi/, is perhaps *influenced* by Tutelo >> /aka'aspee/. But I'm not really committed to that idea. > Tutelo /aka'aspee/ is definitely a clear Southeastern form. How so? Is /aka'aspee/ itself a loan from somewhere? A quick look at my Chickasaw and Creek dictionaries didn't reveal anything similar. > How does the MI 'six' form differ from other Algonquian forms? I wonder > bacause I'd be tempted to call the Southeastern 'six' forms '"oddly deformed," > too! The Miami-Illinois form for 'six', /kaakaat(i)hswi/, isn't the form the word would be expected to have at all, given sister-language cognates like Ojibwe /ningodwaaswi/, Potawatomi /ngodwatso/, Shawnee /nekotwah0wi/, and Fox /(ne)kotwaa$ika/ (from a probable PA form */nekwetwa:$i(ka)/). Given the sister language forms, the M-I form might be expected to be something like **/ninkotaat(i)hswi/. 'Influence' from Tutelo /aka'aspee/ isn't a terribly satisfying explanation, but I'm open to any other influences I might have missed. Dave From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 28 23:53:47 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:53:47 -0600 Subject: 'eight' some more In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, David Costa wrote: > > I think this is more of a methodological objection than a linguistic one, > > Linguistics and its methodology are one and the same thing. This is kind of a high level issue in methodology, however. > I basically feel it's a severe violation of Occam's razor to claim that the > M-I forms were borrowed from a hypothetical reconstructed form in one > language when actual attested forms that match the M-I words better are > known to exist in another language. It's really only one form in Tutelo (or whatever). The multiplicy of forms is in the ears of the beholder and in MI. > > The Tutelo variants are alternate perceptions of one thing, not a perceived > > alternation between two things. > > I know. But that doesn't really matter for our purposes. It was presumably > just allophonic variation in Tutelo, but M-I speakers, who did NOT have > allophonic variation in their own language between liquids and /n/, would > not have perceived it that way. M-I speakers weren't borrowing the > underlying Siouan form, they were borrowing the phonetic Siouan forms. Not allophonic. Random subsignificant, unconditioned variation in production or free variation in non-native perception of "identical" productions. Allophonic would be li (i oral) vs. niN (in nasal), at least in principle. Here we have to assume that the speaker was trying to say niN in every case, while the hearer(s) heard sometimes li, sometimes ni, or even thought from a single repetition that it might have been either li or ni. Granted, I wasn't there and the details of Tutelo phonology will always have an element of uncertainty about them. > > Nevertheless, the d vs. r problem is potentially more serious than the r vs. n > > vs. l one. As I recall, Bob Rankin opted for Tutelo over Ofo partly because > > he thought Tutelo l more like MI r or n than Ofo t (which might have been > > rather d-like). > > Right, if an older Chiwere or Ofo form would have been pronounced more like > *[pataare] or *[pataani], that probably would have come out in M-I as > /pataali/~/pataani/. That would be another fact tilting the argument towards > a Tutelo borrowing. What about phadaaniN? > > But why do we need to assume that the Siouan 'eight' forms go as far back in > > MI as we can push them? We don't have any evidence of them, perforce, before > > contact. Could they have been borrowed after MI moved westward to the > > vicinity of the Mississippi? > > Well, that would leave open the question of why the Siouan loan is attested > through *all* known M-I dialects, including Miami. That is, if the word for > 'eight' was borrowed by the Illinois from Chiwere speakers around the > Mississippi River, why do Indiana Miami and Wea dialects have the word as > well? What is the date of the Indiana Miami and Wea? My understanding is that at present MI communities in Oklahoma crosscut the Miami vs. Illinois distinction. In other words, only the Indiana Miami and Wea communities would be Miami without Illinois population infusions? However, ... in her atlas suggests ... > > Tutelo /aka'aspee/ is definitely a clear Southeastern form. > > How so? Is /aka'aspee/ itself a loan from somewhere? A quick look at my > Chickasaw and Creek dictionaries didn't reveal anything similar. Sorry, the term Southeastern is ambiguous. I meant Southeastern Siouan, or Tutelo plus Biloxi-Ofo. Tu akaa'spee, Bi akaxpe, Of akape. => *akaas^pe. I think Bob has pointed out that MVS *s^aakpe and SES *(a)kaas^pe look like metatheses of each other. > The Miami-Illinois form for 'six', /kaakaat(i)hswi/, isn't the form the word > would be expected to have at all, given sister-language cognates like Ojibwe > /ningodwaaswi/, Potawatomi /ngodwatso/, Shawnee /nekotwah0wi/, and Fox > /(ne)kotwaa$ika/ (from a probable PA form */nekwetwa:$i(ka)/). Given the > sister language forms, the M-I form might be expected to be something like > **/ninkotaat(i)hswi/. 'Influence' from Tutelo /aka'aspee/ isn't a terribly > satisfying explanation, but I'm open to any other influences I might have > missed. In short, given that Spe vs. Swe is not a contast in Siouan, kaakaat(i)hswi is fairlyy similar to akaaspee. The leading k is missing. JEK From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Apr 29 13:10:42 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 08:10:42 -0500 Subject: 'eight' some more In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, Koontz John E wrote: Dave Costa: > > Well, that would leave open the question of why the Siouan loan is attested > > through *all* known M-I dialects, including Miami. That is, if the word for > > 'eight' was borrowed by the Illinois from Chiwere speakers around the > > Mississippi River, why do Indiana Miami and Wea dialects have the word as > > well? > John Koontz: > What is the date of the Indiana Miami and Wea? My understanding is that > at present MI communities in Oklahoma crosscut the Miami vs. Illinois > distinction. In other words, only the Indiana Miami and Wea communities > would be Miami without Illinois population infusions? However, ... in her > atlas suggests ... > The earliest French accounts concerning the Miami and Illinois, which appear after the great Central Algonquian diaspora of the mid-1600s that sent Miami-Illinois-speaking bands from a presumed homeland in the western Lake Erie watershed west to the Mississippi and northwest to what we call today Wisconsin, refer to all the bands as "Illinois", which is what the Ojibwe called them, and the French got the name from the Ojibwe. The division into "Miami" and "Illinois," as Dave notes, took place between the beginning of the diaspora ca. 1640 and the arrival of La Salle in the West, winter of 1679-80. All roads of research lead to the notion that the Miami became chummy with the Iroquois and that relationship, even though it was in short order betrayed by the Iroquois, drove a wedge between two "camps" of Miami-Illinois speakers that remained and made the relationship irreconcilable during the early and middle historical periods. Now, what is important to realize is that this wedge was primarily between the bands that in time "usurped" the original "Illinois" designation as applied by the Ojibwe--the Peoria, the Kaskaskia, the Tamaroa, and other related groups (in other words, the latter group became known as the "Illinois" even though that moniker had originally applied to *all* the Miami-Illinois speaking folks) and the Miami proper, and by "Miami proper" I am referring to the bands that lived during the diaspora in Wisconsin, subsequently on the St. Joseph River of Lake Michigan in the very late 1600s and very early 1700s, and then in the vicinity of the headwaters of the Maumee throughout the 1700s. Other bands that are typically referred to as "Miami," specifically the Wea and Piankashaw were not a part of this "Miami/Illinois" rift, or better put, sometimes they were and sometimes they weren't. But the Wea in particular maintained fairly good relations with the so-called "Illinois" throughout the 1700s, at a time when the Miami and the Illinois were constantly at each others' throats. Once the Kentuckians and Virginians took control of what is now Indiana and Illinois, once individual bands of M-I speakers were sent across the Mississippi, the Peoria and the Piankashaw fused into a tribal organization. Other bands of M-I speakers fused to form the Miami of Oklahoma.