From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Aug  1 00:40:03 2004
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 19:40:03 -0500
Subject: Vice President Curtis's chair again.
Message-ID: <SAT.31.JUL.2004.194003.0500.>

I've just received the latest copy of the "Kanza News", the newsletter of the
Kaw Nation, and it features a cover photo of the chair that has the seal we
discussed on the list last year.  There is also an article on the chair inside
by Crystal Douglas, the staff archaeologist for the Kaws and curator of their
museum.  She basically quotes a lot of the material we exchanged and mentions
Carolyn Quintero, John Koontz, Rory Larson and Louis Garcia (and myself) by
name.  If any of those mentioned would like a copy of the article, I can mail
you one if I have your postal address.

The article doesn't really add to what we already knew, except for a photo of
the whole chair, but it's nice to have the publicity.

Bob


From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net  Sun Aug  1 15:45:36 2004
From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Q.)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 10:45:36 -0500
Subject: Vice President Curtis's chair again.
In-Reply-To: <002201c47760$16b67ac0$2bb5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <SUN.1.AUG.2004.104536.0500.>

I would like a copy, thanks.
Carolyn

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of R. Rankin
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 7:40 PM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: Vice President Curtis's chair again.


I've just received the latest copy of the "Kanza News", the newsletter of the
Kaw Nation, and it features a cover photo of the chair that has the seal we
discussed on the list last year.  There is also an article on the chair inside
by Crystal Douglas, the staff archaeologist for the Kaws and curator of their
museum.  She basically quotes a lot of the material we exchanged and mentions
Carolyn Quintero, John Koontz, Rory Larson and Louis Garcia (and myself) by
name.  If any of those mentioned would like a copy of the article, I can mail
you one if I have your postal address.

The article doesn't really add to what we already knew, except for a photo of
the whole chair, but it's nice to have the publicity.

Bob


From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Aug  1 17:53:22 2004
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 12:53:22 -0500
Subject: Vice President Curtis's chair again.
Message-ID: <SUN.1.AUG.2004.125322.0500.>

I'll get it xeroxed and out in the next day or two.  I think what happened is
that Justin just forwarded Crystal the email exchanges (or maybe I had sent him
a copy of the Siouan Conf. paper from Michigan), and she just sort of summarized
things.

You might want to pick up an introductory text book on acoustic phonetics to
refer to when you use Praat and other software.  I know that accented vowels are
inherently longer than unaccented ones; vowels in open syllables are inherently
longer than the same vowels in closed syllables; lower vowels are inherently
longer than high vowels, but I don't know the details.  There may also be
inherent differences between nasal vowels and the corresponding oral ones (with
the nasal V's longer).  And if you have long and short vowels, they'll measure
out differently in the different environments, i.e., a short, accented vowel may
actually be longer in milliseconds than an unaccented long vowel in a closed
syllable, etc.  You have to figure out the various contexts and then measure all
the contrasting vowels, both long and short, in that context.  I expect you knew
all of this, but there are lots of details to consider, and I haven't really
begun to look at most of them.

Cheers,

Bob

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carolyn Q." <cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 10:45 AM
Subject: RE: Vice President Curtis's chair again.


> I would like a copy, thanks.
> Carolyn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of R. Rankin
> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 7:40 PM
> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> Subject: Vice President Curtis's chair again.
>
>
> I've just received the latest copy of the "Kanza News", the newsletter of the
> Kaw Nation, and it features a cover photo of the chair that has the seal we
> discussed on the list last year.  There is also an article on the chair inside
> by Crystal Douglas, the staff archaeologist for the Kaws and curator of their
> museum.  She basically quotes a lot of the material we exchanged and mentions
> Carolyn Quintero, John Koontz, Rory Larson and Louis Garcia (and myself) by
> name.  If any of those mentioned would like a copy of the article, I can mail
> you one if I have your postal address.
>
> The article doesn't really add to what we already knew, except for a photo of
> the whole chair, but it's nice to have the publicity.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>


From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net  Sun Aug  1 18:51:10 2004
From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Q.)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 13:51:10 -0500
Subject: Vice President Curtis's chair again.
In-Reply-To: <009a01c477f0$70e26c80$2bb5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <SUN.1.AUG.2004.135110.0500.>

Thanks, Bob.  I agree there's a lot to consider in analyzing the spectrograms.  I had already pulled Ladefoged's A Course in Phonetics to review the spectrograph stuff.  I hadn't reviewed this in many years.

(I had this as one of the only two texts we used in grad school, the other being  a Montague grammar text.  Alan Prince on day one said, here's this book which I expect you all to know the facts in, so we'll test on it in two weeks.  This also may have been the only test we had, i can't remember any others.)

At the same time, I'm still struggling with the software and trying to finish up the umpteenth round of simple editing.  Then at the end I'll use a search and replace function to lengthen any vowels detected to be long by Praat and our analysis.  Are you interested in trying to schedule the Praat short course for sometime next month?

Thanks,
Carolyn

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of R. Rankin
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 12:53 PM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: Re: Vice President Curtis's chair again.


I'll get it xeroxed and out in the next day or two.  I think what happened is
that Justin just forwarded Crystal the email exchanges (or maybe I had sent him
a copy of the Siouan Conf. paper from Michigan), and she just sort of summarized
things.

You might want to pick up an introductory text book on acoustic phonetics to
refer to when you use Praat and other software.  I know that accented vowels are
inherently longer than unaccented ones; vowels in open syllables are inherently
longer than the same vowels in closed syllables; lower vowels are inherently
longer than high vowels, but I don't know the details.  There may also be
inherent differences between nasal vowels and the corresponding oral ones (with
the nasal V's longer).  And if you have long and short vowels, they'll measure
out differently in the different environments, i.e., a short, accented vowel may
actually be longer in milliseconds than an unaccented long vowel in a closed
syllable, etc.  You have to figure out the various contexts and then measure all
the contrasting vowels, both long and short, in that context.  I expect you knew
all of this, but there are lots of details to consider, and I haven't really
begun to look at most of them.

Cheers,

Bob

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carolyn Q." <cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 10:45 AM
Subject: RE: Vice President Curtis's chair again.


> I would like a copy, thanks.
> Carolyn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of R. Rankin
> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 7:40 PM
> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> Subject: Vice President Curtis's chair again.
>
>
> I've just received the latest copy of the "Kanza News", the newsletter of the
> Kaw Nation, and it features a cover photo of the chair that has the seal we
> discussed on the list last year.  There is also an article on the chair inside
> by Crystal Douglas, the staff archaeologist for the Kaws and curator of their
> museum.  She basically quotes a lot of the material we exchanged and mentions
> Carolyn Quintero, John Koontz, Rory Larson and Louis Garcia (and myself) by
> name.  If any of those mentioned would like a copy of the article, I can mail
> you one if I have your postal address.
>
> The article doesn't really add to what we already knew, except for a photo of
> the whole chair, but it's nice to have the publicity.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>


From jmcbride at kayserv.net  Mon Aug  2 17:38:26 2004
From: jmcbride at kayserv.net (Justin McBride)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 12:38:26 -0500
Subject: Vice President Curtis's chair again.
Message-ID: <MON.2.AUG.2004.123826.0500.>

From: "R. Rankin" <rankin at ku.edu>

> I'll get it xeroxed and out in the next day or two.  I think what happened
is
> that Justin just forwarded Crystal the email exchanges (or maybe I had
sent him
> a copy of the Siouan Conf. paper from Michigan), and she just sort of
summarized
> things.

Actually, Crystal received some sort of press release or similar document
from an agency in Washington from which she distilled the information found
in her article.  (Was it from the agency that first desired research on
this?)  I think it would have been fun, though, if she could have seen prior
to writing up the piece how much SiouanList activity centered around the
identification/translation of the etching on the chair.  I guess I wasn't on
the ball enough, or I'd have forwarded her all that stuff to her.  Oh well,
I suppose I can do that the NEXT time someone finds an obscure Dhegiha text
on some big muckety-muck's furniture...   :)

By the way, the annual Kaw Pow Wow will be held here in Kaw City, OK, this
weekend (Aug. 6-8).  If you're free then, Dr. Rankin, it would sure be great
to see you.  And, of course, this invitation also goes out to any other
interested parties on the list.  I'd have mentioned the event sooner on the
list, but I've been so busy that the whole thing just sorta sneaked up on
me!  Anyhow, everyone should come down and see some good ol' fashioned
hospitality--and some good dancing, too!

-Justin


From rankin at ku.edu  Mon Aug  2 18:14:18 2004
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 13:14:18 -0500
Subject: Vice President Curtis's chair again.
Message-ID: <MON.2.AUG.2004.131418.0500.>

> Are you interested in trying to schedule the Praat short course for
sometime next month?

I'll need to wait until our resident phoneticians are back and talk with
them about it.  One of them might be interested in doing it with his
students included too.  I'll keep in touch about it, and it wouldn't
hurt for you to keep reminding me!  :-)

Bob


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Aug  2 23:02:27 2004
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 17:02:27 -0600
Subject: Schpelling
In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D01233ACE@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.2.AUG.2004.170227.0600.>

On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> > Are you interested in trying to schedule the Praat short course for
> > sometime next month?

Isn't prat British slang for something like "incompetent bungler"?  We
need training for that?

The aa reminds me of the period in which the CU PLains Center offices were
in the INSTAAR (Inst. for Arctic and Alpine Research) Building and Bob,
visiting to work on the CSD, would insist that the INSTAAR sign next to
the stairway in the lobby was actually Dutch for "Entrance Stairway."

Another linguistic joke associated with the CSD is Willem de Reuse's
insistence that Le Francais, a popular breakfast (braakfast?) venue just
off campus, was to be pronounced Le Frankay, because there was no cedilla
under the c.  Incidentally, Le Francais has been reduced to a bakery only
and moved into cheaper digs somewhat in an industrial park.  The
restaurant is now a Le Peep.

My own favorite Le Francais memory is passing by on my way home from work
one evening and seeing the owner struggling to drag out a heavy box of day
old bread.  He was a stout old gentleman, so I asked if he needed any
help.  He looked me over, sized up my ratty old coat, and said, "No, but
if you are hungry I will give some anyway."  That was one of several
incidents that caused me to replace that coat.  Another was leaving it all
day in mid winter by the heavily frequented postal counter in the
Bookstore and coming back in the evening to find it still there. I knew
then that it was completely worthless.


From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk  Tue Aug  3 10:14:58 2004
From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 11:14:58 +0100
Subject: Schpelling
Message-ID: <TUE.3.AUG.2004.111458.0100.>

Yes, John, 'prat' does mean that.  it's an old word for the posterior,
preserved in 'pratfall', and the metaphorical extension t refer to
someone ill-regarded is not exclusive to UKEng.   The cominc potential
of the phonetics software Praat has not gone unnoticed in the UK, even
to a Dutch-user such as myself.  I wonder where the surname Pratt comes
from?

Anthony

>>> John.Koontz at colorado.edu 03/08/2004 00:02:27 >>>
On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> > Are you interested in trying to schedule the Praat short course
for
> > sometime next month?

Isn't prat British slang for something like "incompetent bungler"?  We
need training for that?

The aa reminds me of the period in which the CU PLains Center offices
were
in the INSTAAR (Inst. for Arctic and Alpine Research) Building and
Bob,
visiting to work on the CSD, would insist that the INSTAAR sign next
to
the stairway in the lobby was actually Dutch for "Entrance Stairway."

Another linguistic joke associated with the CSD is Willem de Reuse's
insistence that Le Francais, a popular breakfast (braakfast?) venue
just
off campus, was to be pronounced Le Frankay, because there was no
cedilla
under the c.  Incidentally, Le Francais has been reduced to a bakery
only
and moved into cheaper digs somewhat in an industrial park.  The
restaurant is now a Le Peep.

My own favorite Le Francais memory is passing by on my way home from
work
one evening and seeing the owner struggling to drag out a heavy box of
day
old bread.  He was a stout old gentleman, so I asked if he needed any
help.  He looked me over, sized up my ratty old coat, and said, "No,
but
if you are hungry I will give some anyway."  That was one of several
incidents that caused me to replace that coat.  Another was leaving it
all
day in mid winter by the heavily frequented postal counter in the
Bookstore and coming back in the evening to find it still there. I
knew
then that it was completely worthless.


From vstabler at esu1.org  Tue Aug  3 15:25:50 2004
From: vstabler at esu1.org (Vida Stabler)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 10:25:50 -0500
Subject: Vice President Curtis's chair again.
Message-ID: <TUE.3.AUG.2004.102550.0500.>

Hi Justin, good to read your email and to know you are still active in Kaw country.
How far away is the Pow-Wow from Macy??  Vida


Justin McBride wrote:

> From: +ACI-R. Rankin+ACI- +ADw-rankin+AEA-ku.edu+AD4-
>
> +AD4- I'll get it xeroxed and out in the next day or two.  I think what happened
> is
> +AD4- that Justin just forwarded Crystal the email exchanges (or maybe I had
> sent him
> +AD4- a copy of the Siouan Conf. paper from Michigan), and she just sort of
> summarized
> +AD4- things.
>
> Actually, Crystal received some sort of press release or similar document
> from an agency in Washington from which she distilled the information found
> in her article.  (Was it from the agency that first desired research on
> this?)  I think it would have been fun, though, if she could have seen prior
> to writing up the piece how much SiouanList activity centered around the
> identification/translation of the etching on the chair.  I guess I wasn't on
> the ball enough, or I'd have forwarded her all that stuff to her.  Oh well,
> I suppose I can do that the NEXT time someone finds an obscure Dhegiha text
> on some big muckety-muck's furniture...   :)
>
> By the way, the annual Kaw Pow Wow will be held here in Kaw City, OK, this
> weekend (Aug. 6-8).  If you're free then, Dr. Rankin, it would sure be great
> to see you.  And, of course, this invitation also goes out to any other
> interested parties on the list.  I'd have mentioned the event sooner on the
> list, but I've been so busy that the whole thing just sorta sneaked up on
> me+ACE-  Anyhow, everyone should come down and see some good ol' fashioned
> hospitality--and some good dancing, too+ACE-
>
> -Justin


From jmcbride at kayserv.net  Tue Aug  3 19:07:00 2004
From: jmcbride at kayserv.net (Justin McBride)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 14:07:00 -0500
Subject: Vice President Curtis's chair again.
Message-ID: <TUE.3.AUG.2004.140700.0500.>

> Hi Justin, good to read your email and to know you are still active in Kaw
country.
> How far away is the Pow-Wow from Macy??  Vida

Howdy, Vida!  Good to hear from you, too.  It's about 475 miles or so from
Macy to Kaw City (well, the powwow is in Washungah, actually).  If you do
make it down, please try and stop by the tribal headquarters for a
visit. -jm


From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Aug  3 19:49:55 2004
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 14:49:55 -0500
Subject: Praat
Message-ID: <TUE.3.AUG.2004.144955.0500.>

   :-)

For those not familiar with it, Praat is the name of a computer program that you
can use to analyze speech phonetically.  It is free and can be downloaded at
www.praat.org.  I downloaded it some time ago on recommendation of my resident
instrumental phonetician, but haven't found the time to get it up and running.
It could be used to analyze accent, pitch and length and their connections in
languages.

----- Original Message -----

> Isn't prat British slang for something like "incompetent bungler"?  We
> need training for that?


From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU  Tue Aug  3 22:10:55 2004
From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 16:10:55 -0600
Subject: Praat
In-Reply-To: <013001c47993$0e05a1a0$2bb5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <TUE.3.AUG.2004.161055.0600.>

Praat is very popular with both the DoBeS teams and our own graduate
students, but we (Armik and I) like the commercial program Sound Forge
much better.  It's not free, but I don't think it's outrageous, and it is
very easy to use -- it has to be if it's got me doing things with
spectrograms.

David


David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, R. Rankin wrote:

>    :-)
>
> For those not familiar with it, Praat is the name of a computer program that you
> can use to analyze speech phonetically.  It is free and can be downloaded at
> www.praat.org.  I downloaded it some time ago on recommendation of my resident
> instrumental phonetician, but haven't found the time to get it up and running.
> It could be used to analyze accent, pitch and length and their connections in
> languages.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> > Isn't prat British slang for something like "incompetent bungler"?  We
> > need training for that?
>


From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU  Wed Aug  4 02:07:05 2004
From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 20:07:05 -0600
Subject: Praat
Message-ID: <TUE.3.AUG.2004.200705.0600.>

I might have known Armik would offer more details and better advice -- he
can't write to the list for some reason, though he reads it -- and offers
this much better comparison between Praat and Sound Forge.  Since about
all I do with it is work with long video files, I guess that explains my
prejudice.

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 17:34:34 -0600 (MDT)
From: Mirzayan Armik <mirzayan at cslr.Colorado.EDU>
To: ROOD DAVID S <rood at spot.colorado.edu>
Subject: Re: Praat


David,

Just a few comments to add to this since I think there is more to it.
Please feel free to forward this to the list if you think it'll add
anything to the discussion.

Praat is a very good phonetician's tool and I have used it a lot in all my
phonetics courses, in writing papers, and in doing detailed voicing,
pitch-accent, and timing analysis of the Wichita conversation segments.

SoundForge is a good tool as well, but it covers a different domain. The
two softwares overlap, but each one is suited better for different
purpsoses. There are things that are much easier and better in Praat than
in SoundForge, and vice-versa. So, it is kind of difficult to compare the
two on very simple grounds.

Advantages of Praat:
	- It is suited for linguists.
	- Very good for analysis of pitch in words/utternace.
	- Very good for writing scripts to do repetative tasks over
	  a large number of sound files.
	- Has very good spectral analysis tools geared for linguists.
	- Very good for timing events accurately.
	- Produces nice postscript pictures of pitch tracks and
	  spectrograms for putting in papers.
	- Works on mulitple Operating Systems.
	- It's free and easy to install.

About Sound Forge:

While Sound Forge can do some of the above, it is not good at all of them.
It certainly is not free, and it doesn not work on multiple platforms. You
have to work more in SoundForge to get the spectrograms to look like the
kinds of spectrograms you see in phonetics books ...  But, it is very good
for our Wichita project because it has some features which are better
suited for digitizing long stereo quality sound files, making tracks,
archiving, copying and editing *very* long sound files, slicing up sound
very quickly, adding quick annotations, and many more featuers, some of
which I won't list and some of which I don't even know about.  Praat is
much slower for working with long stereo sound files. Sound Forge also
does video display and compression of sound into various formats rather
quickly (depending on the type of computer you use of course). So, which
tool one uses depends on the purpose of the researcher/project etc .... I
have used both tools for working with the Wichita material.

best,
Armik

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, ROOD DAVID S wrote:

>
> Praat is very popular with both the DoBeS teams and our own graduate
> students, but we (Armik and I) like the commercial program Sound Forge
> much better.  It's not free, but I don't think it's outrageous, and it is
> very easy to use -- it has to be if it's got me doing things with
> spectrograms.
>
> David
>
>
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> 295 UCB
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu
>
> On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, R. Rankin wrote:
>
> >    :-)
> >
> > For those not familiar with it, Praat is the name of a computer program that you
> > can use to analyze speech phonetically.  It is free and can be downloaded at
> > www.praat.org.  I downloaded it some time ago on recommendation of my resident
> > instrumental phonetician, but haven't found the time to get it up and running.
> > It could be used to analyze accent, pitch and length and their connections in
> > languages.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > > Isn't prat British slang for something like "incompetent bungler"?  We
> > > need training for that?
> >
>


From lcumberl at indiana.edu  Wed Aug  4 08:19:25 2004
From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 03:19:25 -0500
Subject: Praat
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408031609060.16199@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.4.AUG.2004.031925.0500.>

Well, then, I have a question for you and Armik - I use Sound Forge, too, but I
can't find settings that give me spectrograms clear enough to print.  what
settings do you use?

Linda

Quoting ROOD DAVID S <rood at spot.Colorado.EDU>:

>
> Praat is very popular with both the DoBeS teams and our own graduate
> students, but we (Armik and I) like the commercial program Sound Forge
> much better.  It's not free, but I don't think it's outrageous, and it is
> very easy to use -- it has to be if it's got me doing things with
> spectrograms.
>
> David
>
>
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> 295 UCB
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu
>
> On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, R. Rankin wrote:
>
> >    :-)
> >
> > For those not familiar with it, Praat is the name of a computer program
> that you
> > can use to analyze speech phonetically.  It is free and can be downloaded
> at
> > www.praat.org.  I downloaded it some time ago on recommendation of my
> resident
> > instrumental phonetician, but haven't found the time to get it up and
> running.
> > It could be used to analyze accent, pitch and length and their connections
> in
> > languages.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > > Isn't prat British slang for something like "incompetent bungler"?  We
> > > need training for that?
> >
>
>
>


From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net  Wed Aug  4 12:45:18 2004
From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Q.)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 07:45:18 -0500
Subject: sound forge and Praat
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408032005170.11120@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.4.AUG.2004.074518.0500.>

Armik and David,

Thanks for a very helpful discussion.

My version of SoundForge, "Screenblast Sound Forge" audio editing software
does not produce spectrograms (this is the less expensive version, around
$50.00) but is easy to use to edit sound files to eliminate silences and cut
and paste in general.  I like the feature of being able to quickly insert
markers and label them with the Osage words right on the sound file screen
at the appropriate point. However, background noise seems to be more of a
problem with Screenblast Sound Forge than with e.g. Cool Edit on the same
computer.

Any tips on getting started with Praat, some of the pitfalls, etc.? I've
tried to work with it a bit, but didn't find it very user-friendly.

Carolyn

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of ROOD DAVID S
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 9:07 PM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: Re: Praat



I might have known Armik would offer more details and better advice -- he
can't write to the list for some reason, though he reads it -- and offers
this much better comparison between Praat and Sound Forge.  Since about
all I do with it is work with long video files, I guess that explains my
prejudice.

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 17:34:34 -0600 (MDT)
From: Mirzayan Armik <mirzayan at cslr.Colorado.EDU>
To: ROOD DAVID S <rood at spot.colorado.edu>
Subject: Re: Praat


David,

Just a few comments to add to this since I think there is more to it.
Please feel free to forward this to the list if you think it'll add
anything to the discussion.

Praat is a very good phonetician's tool and I have used it a lot in all my
phonetics courses, in writing papers, and in doing detailed voicing,
pitch-accent, and timing analysis of the Wichita conversation segments.

SoundForge is a good tool as well, but it covers a different domain. The
two softwares overlap, but each one is suited better for different
purpsoses. There are things that are much easier and better in Praat than
in SoundForge, and vice-versa. So, it is kind of difficult to compare the
two on very simple grounds.

Advantages of Praat:
	- It is suited for linguists.
	- Very good for analysis of pitch in words/utternace.
	- Very good for writing scripts to do repetative tasks over
	  a large number of sound files.
	- Has very good spectral analysis tools geared for linguists.
	- Very good for timing events accurately.
	- Produces nice postscript pictures of pitch tracks and
	  spectrograms for putting in papers.
	- Works on mulitple Operating Systems.
	- It's free and easy to install.

About Sound Forge:

While Sound Forge can do some of the above, it is not good at all of them.
It certainly is not free, and it doesn not work on multiple platforms. You
have to work more in SoundForge to get the spectrograms to look like the
kinds of spectrograms you see in phonetics books ...  But, it is very good
for our Wichita project because it has some features which are better
suited for digitizing long stereo quality sound files, making tracks,
archiving, copying and editing *very* long sound files, slicing up sound
very quickly, adding quick annotations, and many more featuers, some of
which I won't list and some of which I don't even know about.  Praat is
much slower for working with long stereo sound files. Sound Forge also
does video display and compression of sound into various formats rather
quickly (depending on the type of computer you use of course). So, which
tool one uses depends on the purpose of the researcher/project etc .... I
have used both tools for working with the Wichita material.

best,
Armik

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, ROOD DAVID S wrote:

>
> Praat is very popular with both the DoBeS teams and our own graduate
> students, but we (Armik and I) like the commercial program Sound Forge
> much better.  It's not free, but I don't think it's outrageous, and it is
> very easy to use -- it has to be if it's got me doing things with
> spectrograms.
>
> David
>
>
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> 295 UCB
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu
>
> On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, R. Rankin wrote:
>
> >    :-)
> >
> > For those not familiar with it, Praat is the name of a computer program
that you
> > can use to analyze speech phonetically.  It is free and can be
downloaded at
> > www.praat.org.  I downloaded it some time ago on recommendation of my
resident
> > instrumental phonetician, but haven't found the time to get it up and
running.
> > It could be used to analyze accent, pitch and length and their
connections in
> > languages.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > > Isn't prat British slang for something like "incompetent bungler"?  We
> > > need training for that?
> >
>


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Wed Aug  4 21:15:36 2004
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 16:15:36 -0500
Subject: Prat(t)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408031609060.16199@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.4.AUG.2004.161536.0500.>

Prat(t) as an adj. meant 'cunning, astute' in Middle English. The origin
of prat 'backside' (first recorded in the 16c.) is unknown.

Alan


From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk  Thu Aug  5 12:10:20 2004
From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:10:20 +0100
Subject: Prat(t)
Message-ID: <THU.5.AUG.2004.131020.0100.>

ah, like the old sense of German praechtig then.

Anthony

>>> ahartley at d.umn.edu 04/08/2004 22:15:36 >>>
Prat(t) as an adj. meant 'cunning, astute' in Middle English. The
origin
of prat 'backside' (first recorded in the 16c.) is unknown.

Alan


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Fri Aug  6 07:18:01 2004
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:18:01 +0200
Subject: prat(t)
Message-ID: <FRI.6.AUG.2004.091801.0200.>

 > ah, like the old sense of German praechtig then.<<


 >> Prat(t) as an adj. meant 'cunning, astute' in Middle English. The
origin of prat 'backside' (first recorded in the 16c.) is unknown.<<<<


I don't think so: German _prächtig_ (praechtig) is related to _Pracht_
(pomp, glory, splendour etc.).

Pracht f. (< 8. Jhd.). Mhd. braht m. lf. 'Lärm, Geschrei' (clamour, hue
etc.), ahd. braht, as. braht m. from vd. * brahta-, along with ae.
bearhtm m., as. brahtum m. 'Lärm, Menge' (clamour, whooping etc., mass,
crowd). obviously cognate with l. suffragium n. 'Abstimmung, Beifall'
(vote, applause/acclamation) i.e. 'zustimmender Lärm'
(assenting/approving clamour).

Alfred


From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU  Fri Aug  6 15:39:03 2004
From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:39:03 -0600
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <411330A9.9030503@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.AUG.2004.093903.0600.>

>
>  obviously cognate with l. suffragium n. 'Abstimmung, Beifall'
> (vote, applause/acclamation) i.e. 'zustimmender Lärm'
> (assenting/approving clamour).

	Not at all obvious to me.  Germanic /p/ should correspond to Latin
/b/, not /f/ (slippery, lubricus), and where's the Latin equivalent of the
/t/??  I know my Indo-European is rusty, but this doesn't seem at all
right.

	I've been wondering whether "prattle" is a pejorative diminutive
of this word.  There aren't very many of those in English.

>
David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu


From mary.marino at usask.ca  Fri Aug  6 15:57:22 2004
From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Mary Marino)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:57:22 -0600
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408060917500.26759@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.AUG.2004.095722.0600.>

'Prattle'  is a diminutive of 'prate' -  the latter meaning to talk
officiously or pompously, the former meaning to talk idly or foolishly - to
gab, or to talk like a child.  As applied to children is it not
pejorative.  This is discussed in the OED.

Mary



At 09:39 AM 8/6/2004, you wrote:
> >
> >  obviously cognate with l. suffragium n. 'Abstimmung, Beifall'
> > (vote, applause/acclamation) i.e. 'zustimmender Lärm'
> > (assenting/approving clamour).
>
>         Not at all obvious to me.  Germanic /p/ should correspond to Latin
>/b/, not /f/ (slippery, lubricus), and where's the Latin equivalent of the
>/t/??  I know my Indo-European is rusty, but this doesn't seem at all
>right.
>
>         I've been wondering whether "prattle" is a pejorative diminutive
>of this word.  There aren't very many of those in English.
>
> >
>David S. Rood
>Dept. of Linguistics
>Univ. of Colorado
>295 UCB
>Boulder, CO 80309-0295
>USA
>rood at colorado.edu


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Aug  6 16:05:34 2004
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:05:34 -0600
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408060917500.26759@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.AUG.2004.100534.0600.>

On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, ROOD DAVID S wrote:
> Germanic /p/ should correspond to Latin /b/, not /f/ (slippery,
> lubricus), and where's the Latin equivalent of the /t/??  I know my
> Indo-European is rusty, but this doesn't seem at all right.

I have the impression that native sources of p in German are rare.  Does
*/__r preserve PIE *p?

> I've been wondering whether "prattle" is a pejorative diminutive
> of this word.  There aren't very many of those in English.

I think Bob Rankin once suggested scat :: skittle, cf. shit.  (I don't
think sk in skittle could be native English, however.)


From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk  Fri Aug  6 16:55:13 2004
From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 17:55:13 +0100
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
Message-ID: <FRI.6.AUG.2004.175513.0100.>

>>> John.Koontz at colorado.edu 06/08/2004 17:05:34 >>>
On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, ROOD DAVID S wrote:
> Germanic /p/ should correspond to Latin /b/, not /f/ (slippery,
> lubricus), and where's the Latin equivalent of the /t/??  I know my
> Indo-European is rusty, but this doesn't seem at all right.

Dear John:

I have the impression that native sources of p in German are rare.
Does
*/__r preserve PIE *p?

-No it doesn't.  IE *pr becomes /fr/.  Latin primus - English first,
that sort of thing. Inherited English /p/ goes back to PIE /b/.

> I've been wondering whether "prattle" is a pejorative diminutive
> of this word.  There aren't very many of those in English.

I think Bob Rankin once suggested scat :: skittle, cf. shit.  (I don't
think sk in skittle could be native English, however.)

-Nor could sc- in scat.  /sk-/ in Middle English words is a sigh of
them being Latin, French or Norse rather than OE.

-anthony


From rankin at ku.edu  Fri Aug  6 18:07:48 2004
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 13:07:48 -0500
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
Message-ID: <FRI.6.AUG.2004.130748.0500.>

> I think Bob Rankin once suggested scat :: skittle, cf. shit.  (I don't
> think sk in skittle could be native English, however.)

Maybe Scandowegian.  As Mary says, I'm sure all this is covered in OED.  Weren't
we talking about these SK clusters at the conference (ship, skiff, skipper,
etc.)?

Bob


From boris at terracom.net  Fri Aug  6 18:20:25 2004
From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 13:20:25 -0500
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <002601c47be0$48e25620$10b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.AUG.2004.132025.0500.>

Most of the 'sk' nautical terms are Dutch or Low German,  skiff is
Dutch, skipper, altho cognate, is Low German ("Saxon, " actually a
separate language).


Alan K

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of R. Rankin
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 1:08 PM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: Re: prat(t) (but not Siouan)

> I think Bob Rankin once suggested scat :: skittle, cf. shit.  (I don't
> think sk in skittle could be native English, however.)

Maybe Scandowegian.  As Mary says, I'm sure all this is covered in OED.
Weren't
we talking about these SK clusters at the conference (ship, skiff,
skipper,
etc.)?

Bob


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Fri Aug  6 20:22:02 2004
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 22:22:02 +0200
Subject: prat(t)
Message-ID: <FRI.6.AUG.2004.222202.0200.>

>> obviously cognate with l. suffragium n. 'Abstimmung, Beifall'
(vote, applause/acclamation) i.e. 'zustimmender Lärm'
(assenting/approving clamour).<<<<

 > Not at all obvious to me.  Germanic /p/ should correspond to Latin
/b/, not /f/ (slippery, lubricus), and where's the Latin equivalent of
the /t/??  I know my Indo-European is rusty, but this doesn't seem at
all right.<<


I tend to agree with your questioning this, yet this is what Kluge
(Etymologisches Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache, de Gruyter, Berlin
1995) - as kind of an obiter dictum - literally gives:

"(...) Offenbar urverwandtes l. suffragium n. 'Abstimmung, Beifall'
zeigt, dass von 'zustimmender Lärm, Akklamation' auszugehen ist. (...)"


Alfred


From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU  Sat Aug  7 04:19:23 2004
From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 22:19:23 -0600
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <00b101c47be2$0f0ca9d0$ab5faad0@alscom>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.AUG.2004.221923.0600.>

Now I'm embarrassed, except for the fact that none of the rest of you
caught this before I did.  All the forms (of German Pracht, praechtig) in
the list that Alfred sent except the modern German one begin with /b/, not
/p/; the /p/ must be the result of some kind of dialect borrowing or other
irregularity in the history of German; it's not the second sound shift
(Hochdeutsche Lautverschiebung), unless I really have forgotten everything
I once knew about the histories of these languages.  So English prat and
German Pracht can't be directly cognate -- English should have /b/ or
German should have /pf/.  And the correct correspondence is then Latin /f/
to Germanic /b/, as in brother/Bruder to frater.  So I guess the Kluge
entry does make sense after all, and maybe Anthony's analogy with the
semantic evolution is accurate, but the two words are not phonological
cognates.
	Maybe we should drop Indo-European again now and get back to
Siouan; I'm sorry for the distraction.  Did you all read Willem de Reuse's
very thoughtful review of the new edition of Buechel in the most recent
(April) IJAL?  He says we're working on a Lakota dictionary here, but
that's only in our dreams.  There's a major project waiting for someone.

David

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Alan Knutson wrote:

> Most of the 'sk' nautical terms are Dutch or Low German,  skiff is
> Dutch, skipper, altho cognate, is Low German ("Saxon, " actually a
> separate language).
>
>
> Alan K
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of R. Rankin
> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 1:08 PM
> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> Subject: Re: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
>
> > I think Bob Rankin once suggested scat :: skittle, cf. shit.  (I don't
> > think sk in skittle could be native English, however.)
>
> Maybe Scandowegian.  As Mary says, I'm sure all this is covered in OED.
> Weren't
> we talking about these SK clusters at the conference (ship, skiff,
> skipper,
> etc.)?
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Sat Aug  7 08:00:13 2004
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 10:00:13 +0200
Subject: prat(t)
Message-ID: <SAT.7.AUG.2004.100013.0200.>

>Now I'm embarrassed, except for the fact that none of the rest of you
caught this before I did.  All the forms (of German Pracht, praechtig)
in the list that Alfred sent except the modern German one begin with
/b/, not /p/; the /p/ must be the result of some kind of dialect
borrowing or other irregularity in the history of German; it's not the
second sound shift (Hochdeutsche Lautverschiebung), unless I really have
forgotten everything I once knew about the histories of these languages.
  So English prat and German Pracht can't be directly cognate -- English
should have /b/ or German should have /pf/. <<

Sorry, too ;-), as last night, it came to my mind that the shift of
Latin /f/ to Middle High German /b/ (braht) etc. was not the problem,
but that of /b/ -> /p/ in German. (If I'm not mistaken, I found another
example of - maybe? - this kind: l. fungus -> boletus -> Pilz
(mushroom); but it might be that fungus and boletus are not at all
cognates. BTW, the final consonant in German Pilz is /ts/ (cf. Romanian
bureti, pl. with the l. /t/ shifting to /ts/ before /i/ [bure'ts]).

Yet, we'd better stick to Siouan ;-)


Alfred


From rwd0002 at unt.edu  Sat Aug  7 16:26:03 2004
From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 11:26:03 -0500
Subject: praat and Buechel
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408062156000.17422@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.7.AUG.2004.112603.0500.>

Hi all:

Maybe we should drop Indo-European again now and get back to
> Siouan; I'm sorry for the distraction.  Did you all read Willem de Reuse's
> very thoughtful review of the new edition of Buechel in the most recent
> (April) IJAL?  He says we're working on a Lakota dictionary here, but
> that's only in our dreams.  There's a major project waiting for someone.

Thanks David, for kindly mentioning my review of Buechel in order to get back
to Siouan. It is a not criticism of the project being stalled of course, but
basically saying that the new Buechel is definitely not the answer to our
Lakotanist lexicographical dreams.

As a Dutch speaker, I can't resist putting in my two cents on the word praat
which means 'talk' in Dutch, either as the imperative of the verb 'praten' or
the noun 'talk'.  My Dutch etymological dictionary has possible cognates High
German dialectal pfattern 'to mumble' and Old Norse pati 'rumor, gossip', but
that most likely this is just West Germanic. One more reason to let go of Indo-
European.

Willem



















































































From goodtracks at GBRonline.com  Fri Aug 13 03:24:02 2004
From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:24:02 -0500
Subject: HIDATSA ELDER
Message-ID: <THU.12.AUG.2004.222402.0500.>

Sadly, another elder passes on...
Clement "Finigan" NagaraHash Baker.  1932 to August 11, 2004.  72yoa.

One of the few remaining fluent Hidatsa speakers in the Mandaree, ND
area.......


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Aug 13 17:11:02 2004
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:11:02 -0600
Subject: HIDATSA ELDER
In-Reply-To: <000d01c480e5$0b40aab0$73640945@JIMM>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.AUG.2004.111102.0600.>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Jimm GoodTracks wrote:
> Clement "Finigan" NagaraHash Baker.

Requiscat in pacem, senior Baker.

I notice that NagaraHash looks a bit like the Ioway-Otoe variant of the
"English(man)" term.


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Sat Aug 14 07:03:15 2004
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:03:15 +0200
Subject: Hidatsa Elder
Message-ID: <SAT.14.AUG.2004.090315.0200.>

 >Clement "Finigan" NagaraHash Baker.

Requiscat in pacem, senior Baker.<<

Shouldn't it be "Requiescat in pace" ?

"Sit ei (tibi) terra levis!" etc.
Do you know of phrases in Siouan languages comparable to these (be it
from a traditional or Christian background)?

Alfred


From Rgraczyk at aol.com  Sat Aug 14 14:51:58 2004
From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Randolph Graczyk)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 10:51:58 EDT
Subject: Hidatsa Elder
Message-ID: <SAT.14.AUG.2004.105158.EDT.>

In the Crow tradition prayers at the time of death are primarily for the
survivors, the mourners.  You might say something like Daasu'ua annashtache'esh
iha'ahiakuh 'take away the heaviness from their hearts'.

Randy
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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Sat Aug 14 18:18:15 2004
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 20:18:15 +0200
Subject: Hidatsa Elder
Message-ID: <SAT.14.AUG.2004.201815.0200.>

 >"Sit ei (tibi) terra levis!" etc.
Do you know of phrases in Siouan languages comparable to these (be it
from a traditional or Christian background)?<<

 >>In the Crow tradition prayers at the time of death are primarily for
the survivors, the mourners.  You might say something like Daasu'ua
annashtache'esh iha'ahiakuh 'take away the heaviness from their
hearts'.<<<<<

Interesting!
In a still more subtle way, the Aramaic Mourner's Kaddish also cares for
the survivors (and the praying mourner himself), getting consolation and
hope by praising His great name (sh'meh raba).

cf. http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de/KADDISH.RXML

Alfred


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Aug 15 03:04:45 2004
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 21:04:45 -0600
Subject: Hidatsa Elder
In-Reply-To: <411DB933.2090707@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <SAT.14.AUG.2004.210445.0600.>

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, "Alfred W. Tüting" wrote:
> Shouldn't it be "Requiescat in pace" ?

Probably.  My Latin isn't very good.


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Tue Aug 17 14:01:41 2004
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:01:41 +0100
Subject: Hidatsa Elder
In-Reply-To: <411DB933.2090707@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.AUG.2004.150141.0100.>

On 14/8/04 8:03 am, "Alfred W. Tüting" <ti at fa-kuan.muc.de> wrote:

>> Clement "Finigan" NagaraHash Baker.
>
> Requiscat in pacem, senior Baker.<<
>
> Shouldn't it be "Requiescat in pace" ?
>
> "Sit ei (tibi) terra levis!" etc.
> Do you know of phrases in Siouan languages comparable to these (be it
> from a traditional or Christian background)?
>
> Alfred
>
>
>
>
I suppose in pacem would mean 'into peace', but is not the normal phrase.
Am I right that in Lakota people just say otexike meaning 'it is hard' ?
Bruce *


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue Aug 17 15:53:08 2004
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:53:08 -0600
Subject: Hidatsa Elder
In-Reply-To: <BD47CE55.11AE%bi1@soas.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.AUG.2004.095308.0600.>

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Bruce Ingham wrote:
> I suppose in pacem would mean 'into peace', but is not the normal phrase.
> Am I right that in Lakota people just say otexike meaning 'it is hard' ?

Yes, I'm afraid I reconstructed it from the traditional initials, memory,
and a very weak knowledge of Latin, and got it crossed up with Dona (?)
nobis pacem.  I guess the moral is, "Look up before you spout."


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Tue Aug 17 16:03:04 2004
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 17:03:04 +0100
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <00b101c47be2$0f0ca9d0$ab5faad0@alscom>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.AUG.2004.170304.0100.>

On 6/8/04 7:20 pm, "Alan Knutson" <boris at terracom.net> wrote:

> Most of the 'sk' nautical terms are Dutch or Low German,  skiff is
> Dutch, skipper, altho cognate, is Low German ("Saxon, " actually a
> separate language).
>
>
> Alan K
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of R. Rankin
> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 1:08 PM
> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> Subject: Re: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
>
>> I think Bob Rankin once suggested scat :: skittle, cf. shit.  (I don't
>> think sk in skittle could be native English, however.)
>
> Maybe Scandowegian.  As Mary says, I'm sure all this is covered in OED.
> Weren't
> we talking about these SK clusters at the conference (ship, skiff,
> skipper,
> etc.)?
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
>
Don't forget English skipper.  Presumably Norse from skip
Bruce


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Tue Aug 17 16:34:20 2004
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:34:20 -0500
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <BD47EAC8.11C0%bi1@soas.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.AUG.2004.113420.0500.>

Bruce Ingham wrote:

> Don't forget English skipper.  Presumably Norse from skip

OED says Middle Dutch or Middle Low German, Amer. Heritage and Random
House say MDu.

Alan


From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Aug 17 21:53:27 2004
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:53:27 -0500
Subject: Curtis chair press release.
Message-ID: <TUE.17.AUG.2004.165327.0500.>


      April 26th, 2004

      BILLINGS RESIDENT LOANS IMPORTANT ARTIFACT TO CAPITOL

      WASHINGTON, D.C. - U.S. Sen. Conrad Burns (R-Mont.) announced the loan of
a chair belonging to Vice President Charles Curtis for display purposes in the
Vice President’s ceremonial office in the United States Capitol. The chair is on
indefinite renewable loan to the Senate from Lowell E. Baier of Billings, MT.

      “I am pleased to see that this chair is being recognized as the valuable
artifact it is,” said Burns. “The chair represents our strong history as a
country and as a government, and I am glad Lowell has agreed to allow it to be
used in this context where many people will be able to witness it beauty and
grandeur.”

      The hand carved walnut chair is inscribed in both English and Native
American languages and was presented to Vice President Charles Curtis by the
‘Original Curtis Boys and Matthew Quay Glaser,’ around 1929. The elaborately
carved backrest is inscribed with “To Our Chief / Charles Curtis / Vice
President of the United States.” Centered on the backrest is a medallion profile
of a Native American Indian and a Kaw inscription that translates to read
“Friend, Go on in the Best of Health, This Is Our Wish.”

      Charles Curtis (1860-1936), was directly descended from White Plume, a Kaw
chief, and Pawhuska, an Osage chief. Curtis served as 31st vice president of the
United States under President Herbert Hoover. He served in the U.S. House of
Representatives from 1893 to 1907, and in the U.S. Senate from 1907 to 1913 and
1915 to 1929. One of Curtis’ proudest achievements in the Senate was his effort
to pass the 19th Amendment, granting women the right to vote.

      ###
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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Aug 18 01:15:31 2004
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:15:31 -0600
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <4122338C.9010504@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.AUG.2004.191531.0600.>

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> Bruce Ingham wrote:
> > Don't forget English skipper.  Presumably Norse from skip
> OED says Middle Dutch or Middle Low German, Amer. Heritage and Random
> House say MDu.

I believe a lot of English nautical terminology is of "recent" Dutch
origin (1500s on?).  This was an area of international borrowing in the
past.  And a surprising number of obscure idioms and words in English turn
out to be nautical in origin, e.g., "in the offing" or "aloof."  (I think
these are both good!)  Alan and I have discussed some of this on the side
briefly in the past out of mutual interest.  Of course, his knowledge of
both shipping and etymology in a professional sense is far ahead of mine,
and he tends to look things up first and speak second, so our exchanges
tends to consist of eager suggestions by me and patient corrections by
him.


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Wed Aug 18 14:08:05 2004
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:08:05 -0500
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408171906540.12799@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.18.AUG.2004.090805.0500.>

> I believe a lot of English nautical terminology is of "recent" Dutch
> origin (1500s on?).

That's right. I think nautical borrowings from Dutch occurred mostly in
the late Middle English to early Modern Eng. period (i.e., up till early
17c.) The borrowing accompanied the dominance of the Hanseatic trading
network in the Baltic and North Sea.

> his knowledge of
> both shipping and etymology in a professional sense is far ahead of mine

John is too kind. I (and the OED) owe much more (especially in the way
of ethnonym etymologies) to him and other Siouan list members than he to me!

Alan


From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU  Wed Aug 18 14:39:59 2004
From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 08:39:59 -0600
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408171906540.12799@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.18.AUG.2004.083959.0600.>

	Along these lines, my father used to insist that the correct
spelling for the expression "under way", as in "let's get this project
under way", was really "under weigh", as in weighing anchor.  Does anyone
know anything more about that?  I've been laughed at more than once for
perpetuating his idea.

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Koontz John E wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> > Bruce Ingham wrote:
> > > Don't forget English skipper.  Presumably Norse from skip
> > OED says Middle Dutch or Middle Low German, Amer. Heritage and Random
> > House say MDu.
>
> I believe a lot of English nautical terminology is of "recent" Dutch
> origin (1500s on?).  This was an area of international borrowing in the
> past.  And a surprising number of obscure idioms and words in English turn
> out to be nautical in origin, e.g., "in the offing" or "aloof."  (I think
> these are both good!)  Alan and I have discussed some of this on the side
> briefly in the past out of mutual interest.  Of course, his knowledge of
> both shipping and etymology in a professional sense is far ahead of mine,
> and he tends to look things up first and speak second, so our exchanges
> tends to consist of eager suggestions by me and patient corrections by
> him.
>


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Wed Aug 18 15:18:00 2004
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 10:18:00 -0500
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408180837470.5194@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.18.AUG.2004.101800.0500.>

ROOD DAVID S wrote:

> 	Along these lines, my father used to insist that the correct
> spelling for the expression "under way", as in "let's get this project
> under way", was really "under weigh", as in weighing anchor.  Does anyone
> know anything more about that?  I've been laughed at more than once for
> perpetuating his idea.

Good example of a Du loan (which is, despite what I said earlier, from
the _eighteenth_ century): onderweg (also -wegen) 'on the way, under
way,' < onder 'under, in the course of,' etc. + weg (dat. pl. wegen)
'way'. "Under weigh" is apparently a technical folk-etymology (if I may
coin an oxymoron) arising from anchor-weighing. The "correct" spelling
is recorded from 1743 and the folk-etymologic from 1777.

Alan


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Aug 18 15:30:40 2004
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:30:40 -0600
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408180837470.5194@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.18.AUG.2004.093040.0600.>

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, ROOD DAVID S wrote:
> Along these lines, my father used to insist that the correct spelling
> for the expression "under way", as in "let's get this project under
> way", was really "under weigh", as in weighing anchor.  Does anyone know
> anything more about that?  I've been laughed at more than once for
> perpetuating his idea.

Alan?"  It doesn't seem implausible, but I don't know myself.  I suppose
it depends on whether "weighing anchor" refers to the effort of lifting
it, or uses an odd spelling to refer to getting the anchor in position to
"get under way."  "Way" in the sense of direction of travel, path of
movement, or simply movement is pretty common in nautical contexts, e.g.,
I think the command to commence rowing, or maybe it's just row harder, is
"give way."  And I think expressions like "in the way" in the sense of
"available, present" (and now days, "positioned to impede progress") refer
to being in the best route through a shallow area like a harbor.  I think
that's also the source of "fairway."  This could easily get out of hand,
so I'll leave my examples there!


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Thu Aug 19 07:37:27 2004
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:37:27 +0200
Subject: prat(t)
Message-ID: <THU.19.AUG.2004.093727.0200.>

 > (David:) Along these lines, my father used to insist that the correct
spelling for the expression "under way", as in "let's get this project
under way", was really "under weigh", as in weighing anchor.  Does
anyone know anything more about that?  I've been laughed at more than
once for perpetuating his idea.<<

This is what Kluge (lc.) tells us:

"unterwegs Adv. älter unterwegen (< *11.Jh., Form < 18. Jh.) Mhd.
unterwegen, mndd. underwege(n), mndl. onderwege(n). Eigentlich 'zwischen
den Wegen' (=between the ways), 'in/auf den Wegen' (=in/on the ways),
nachträglich mit adverbialem Genitiv."


 >(John:) "Way" in the sense of direction of travel, path of movement,
or simply movement is pretty common in nautical contexts, e.g.,I think
the command to commence rowing, or maybe it's just row harder, is "give
way."<<

In Romanian, there's a similar expression too: 'Dã-i drumu!' (lit.:
'give it way') meaning about: Go on!/C'mon!/Hurry up etc. (German: Mach
zu!/Auf geht's!/Los! etc.)



Alfred


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Fri Aug 20 13:18:56 2004
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:18:56 +0100
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <41237328.6000503@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.AUG.2004.141856.0100.>

On 18/8/04 4:18 pm, "Alan H. Hartley" <ahartley at d.umn.edu> wrote:

> ROOD DAVID S wrote:
>
>> Along these lines, my father used to insist that the correct
>> spelling for the expression "under way", as in "let's get this project
>> under way", was really "under weigh", as in weighing anchor.  Does anyone
>> know anything more about that?  I've been laughed at more than once for
>> perpetuating his idea.
>
> Good example of a Du loan (which is, despite what I said earlier, from
> the _eighteenth_ century): onderweg (also -wegen) 'on the way, under
> way,' < onder 'under, in the course of,' etc. + weg (dat. pl. wegen)
> 'way'. "Under weigh" is apparently a technical folk-etymology (if I may
> coin an oxymoron) arising from anchor-weighing. The "correct" spelling
> is recorded from 1743 and the folk-etymologic from 1777.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
On the same tack and without sailing too close to the wind, does any one
know why in the old days the anchors were 'won' after they had been
'weighed'.  Was it suppletion or an old form?

Bruce


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Fri Aug 20 18:20:28 2004
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:20:28 +0200
Subject: prat(t)
Message-ID: <FRI.20.AUG.2004.202028.0200.>

> (Bruce:) On the same tack and without sailing too close to the wind, does any one
know why in the old days the anchors were 'won' after they had been
'weighed'.  Was it suppletion or an old form?<<

This reminds me of the special use of 'gewinnen' (to win) in my wife's
Transylvanian Saxon dialect (going back to the Middle Ages and in some
way cognate to Yiddish): e.g. (in German translation) "Man hat ihm den
Blinddarm gewonnen" (lit.: they have _won_ his appendix -> he had his
appendix taken out).
Etymologically, 'gewinnen' goes back to ahd. 'giwinnan' (the prefix has
only in Western Germanic the meaning of 'to acquire'). The root is g.
*wenn-a- 'sich mühen' (to struggle/strive for), gt. 'winnan', anord.
'vinna', ae. 'winnan' etc. German 'gewinnen' hence has the meaning
'durch Mühen erreichen' (to acquire by struggling etc.).
Maybe, also the English term 'to win an anchor' has to do with this idea.

"... A few rain showers accompanied by some lively breeze helps to
enliven our morning as we ease the ship away from the dock and win the
anchor. All hands not otherwise occupied turn to in pushing the capstan
around..."




Alfred


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Fri Aug 20 22:03:37 2004
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:03:37 -0500
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <BD4BB8D0.1B5F%bi1@soas.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.AUG.2004.170337.0500.>

Bruce Ingham wrote:

> On the same tack and without sailing too close to the wind, does any one
> know why in the old days the anchors were 'won' after they had been
> 'weighed'.  Was it suppletion or an old form?

'Win' is not a suppletive to 'weigh' (as far as I know). The anchor
sense fits pretty well into the constellation of senses attested in the
OED for 'win' (verb, homonym 1):

1. intr. To work, labour (OE.); to strive, contend, fight. Obs.
2. trans. To conquer, subdue, overcome, defeat, vanquish, 'beat'. Obs.
3. To be victorious in (a contest of any kind, as a battle, game, race,
action at law, etc.)
4. absol. or intr. To overcome one's adversary, opponent, or competitor;
to be victorious, gain the victory (now chiefly in sports or games of
skill); fig. to prevail.
5. a. trans. To subdue and take possession of; to seize, capture, take
(a place). arch. (now associated with 6).
    b. To seize, capture, take as spoil; to catch (fish, a bird); to
capture, take captive (a person). Obs. exc. in euphemistic slang, to steal.
    [and other subsenses]
6. To get, obtain, acquire; esp. to get as something profitable or
desired; to gain, procure.  a. with concrete (material) obj. Obs. or
arch. exc. in specific uses: see 7.
    [and other subsenses]
7. g. To get or extract (coal, stone, or other mineral) from the mine,
pit, or quarry; also, to sink a shaft or make an excavation so as to
reach (a seam of coal or vein of ore) and prepare it for working, as by
drainage, etc.
    [and other subsenses]
8. To regain, recover (something lost); hence, to make up for (loss,
waste); to rescue, deliver; in religious use, to redeem: often with
again. Obs.
[and other senses]

With respect to the winning of fish in sense 5.b., note (coincidentally)
the naut. verb 'fish,' to draw the flukes of an anchor up to the ship's
gunwale after it's been catted (i.e., suspended from the cathead, the
short beam protruding from either bow for the purpose).

OED doesn't have the sense relating to anchors (or in fact, any sense
labeled 'naut.') The naut. coverage of the OED needs improvement and is
getting it.

Alan

P.S. Goodness: this is really not Siouan!


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Aug 20 23:05:01 2004
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:05:01 -0600
Subject: Winsome Anchors (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <41267539.7050104@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.AUG.2004.170501.0600.>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> 'Win' is not a suppletive to 'weigh' (as far as I know). The anchor
> sense fits pretty well into the constellation of senses attested in the
> OED for 'win' (verb, homonym 1):

I may be confused.  Doesn't winning the anchor mean using the capstan to
draw the ship to a position above the anchor?  As opposed to using it to
haul the anchor up to the cathead, which is the next step?


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Sat Aug 21 14:27:36 2004
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 09:27:36 -0500
Subject: Winsome Anchors (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408201700240.1475@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.21.AUG.2004.092736.0500.>

Koontz John E wrote:

> I may be confused.  Doesn't winning the anchor mean using the capstan to
> draw the ship to a position above the anchor?  As opposed to using it to
> haul the anchor up to the cathead, which is the next step?

In the few (modern yachting) examples I've found, to win the anchor
apparently means to succeed in breaking it out of the bottom and
weighing it. (As far as I can tell, it wasn't in general use historically.)

On a large sailing vessel, after the anchor was weighed and was hanging
under the bow ("under foot"), the cat-tackle was hooked to the
anchor-ring and used to hoist the top of the anchor to the cathead where
it was secured with the cat-stopper. That completed, the fish-tackle was
used to fish the anchor, i.e., draw the anchor-shank (and flukes) up to
the gunwale. That (bottom) end of the anchor was then secured to the
ship's side with the shank-painter. The anchor thus ended up horizontal
along the ship's side,, extending aft from the cathead.

Alan


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Sun Aug 22 10:03:06 2004
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:03:06 +0200
Subject: Praat (technical help)
Message-ID: <SUN.22.AUG.2004.120306.0200.>

I'm using Praat for the first time and am having some technical problems
you maybe can provide me some help on:
Is there a canny way to filter out back ground or any other disturbing
noise?
(I do have the PDF manual but didn't find smth on this or on recording
on the quick.)

Alfred


From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu  Sun Aug 22 16:56:37 2004
From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:56:37 -0700
Subject: Praat (technical help)
In-Reply-To: <41286F5A.20401@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <SUN.22.AUG.2004.095637.0700.>

That is where Sound Forge is useful. It has a Noise Reduction features that
you once needed to buy separately, although I think it may be built into
the latest version. It works best at eliminating a steady noise, like a hum.

Wally

--On Sunday, August 22, 2004 12:03 PM +0200 "\"Alfred W. Tüting\""
<ti at fa-kuan.muc.de> wrote:

> I'm using Praat for the first time and am having some technical problems
> you maybe can provide me some help on:
> Is there a canny way to filter out back ground or any other disturbing
> noise?
> (I do have the PDF manual but didn't find smth on this or on recording on
> the quick.)
>
> Alfred


From mary.marino at usask.ca  Mon Aug 23 06:44:50 2004
From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Mary Marino)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 00:44:50 -0600
Subject: Hidatsa Elder
In-Reply-To: <BD47CE55.11AE%bi1@soas.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <MON.23.AUG.2004.004450.0600.>

Is it right, in Lakhota, to say "otexike"  to a bereaved person or
family?  At what time may this  be said (e.g., at the funeral, or when the
news of the death is first heard?)  Does there exist a "Dakotan"  list or
article or book of  good verbal manners?  I have a small collection of
notes from principal consultants on these matters, and would welcome more
instruction on the subject.

Mary

At 08:01 AM 8/17/2004, you wrote:
>On 14/8/04 8:03 am, "Alfred W. Tüting" <ti at fa-kuan.muc.de> wrote:
>
> >> Clement "Finigan" NagaraHash Baker.
> >
> > Requiscat in pacem, senior Baker.<<
> >
> > Shouldn't it be "Requiescat in pace" ?
> >
> > "Sit ei (tibi) terra levis!" etc.
> > Do you know of phrases in Siouan languages comparable to these (be it
> > from a traditional or Christian background)?
> >
> > Alfred
> >
> >
> >
> >
>I suppose in pacem would mean 'into peace', but is not the normal phrase.
>Am I right that in Lakota people just say otexike meaning 'it is hard' ?
>Bruce *


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Aug 26 16:39:06 2004
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:39:06 -0500
Subject: Fw: Job announcement
Message-ID: <THU.26.AUG.2004.113906.0500.>

> The Department of Anthropology at Southern Illinois University Carbondale
> invites applications for a tenure-track position in linguistic anthropology,
> Assistant or Associate Professor rank, beginning August 16, 2005. Applicants
> currently holding the rank of Associate Professor and Assistant Professors
with
> six years or more university-level teaching and substantial postdoctoral
record
> of publications and grants will be placed into the Associate pool. Applicants
> not currently Associate Professors and with five or less years
university-level
> teaching and strong entry-level record of grants and publication will be
placed
> into the Assistant pool. This position forms part of the SIUC Faculty
Strategic
> Hiring Initiative intended to enhance our program and its national standing.
> Junior applicants must have completed all requirements for the Ph.D. degree in
> Anthropology or a closely related discipline by August 15, 2005. Established
> record of excellence in teaching and research expected. Areal focus open, but
> the department has a preference for a specialist in the indigenous languages
and
> cultures of the Americas. Topical specializations open, but should complement
> existing faculty strengths in a four-field oriented department. The Department
> hopes to hire a scholar who will contribute to building the graduate program
in
> linguistic anthropology. Teaching to include introduction to linguistic
> anthropology; advanced undergraduate and graduate courses in the candidate's
> geographical and topical areas of interest. Closing date for applications is
> November 29, 2004 or until position filled. Send vitae, letter detailing
> professional interests and teaching experience, and names/addresses/e-mail
> addresses/phone/fax #s of four references to: Search Committee Chair,
Linguistic
> Anthropology Position, Department of Anthropology, SIUC, Carbondale, IL
> 62901-4502. Southern Illinois University Carbondale is an affirmative
> action/equal opportunity employer that strives to enhance its ability to
develop
> a diverse faculty and increase its potential to serve a diverse student
> population. All applications are welcomed and encouraged and will receive
> consideration.
>
>
>


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Fri Aug 27 15:54:03 2004
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:54:03 +0100
Subject: Winsome Anchors (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408201700240.1475@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.AUG.2004.165403.0100.>

On 21/8/04 12:05 am, "Koontz John E" <John.Koontz at colorado.edu> wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
>> 'Win' is not a suppletive to 'weigh' (as far as I know). The anchor
>> sense fits pretty well into the constellation of senses attested in the
>> OED for 'win' (verb, homonym 1):
>
> I may be confused.  Doesn't winning the anchor mean using the capstan to
> draw the ship to a position above the anchor?  As opposed to using it to
> haul the anchor up to the cathead, which is the next step?
>
>
>
You may be right.  I have just seen the phrase "the anchor is (or was) won"
and presumed it had something to do with 'weighing' it.  I have never seen
"win the anchor" only "weigh anchor".
Bruce


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Fri Aug 27 17:17:34 2004
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 18:17:34 +0100
Subject: Winsome Anchors (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <41275BD8.7000206@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.AUG.2004.181734.0100.>

On 21/8/04 3:27 pm, "Alan H. Hartley" <ahartley at d.umn.edu> wrote:

>
> In the few (modern yachting) examples I've found, to win the anchor
> apparently means to succeed in breaking it out of the bottom and
> weighing it. (As far as I can tell, it wasn't in general use historically.)
>
> On a large sailing vessel, after the anchor was weighed and was hanging
> under the bow ("under foot"), the cat-tackle was hooked to the
> anchor-ring and used to hoist the top of the anchor to the cathead where
> it was secured with the cat-stopper. That completed, the fish-tackle was
> used to fish the anchor, i.e., draw the anchor-shank (and flukes) up to
> the gunwale. That (bottom) end of the anchor was then secured to the
> ship's side with the shank-painter. The anchor thus ended up horizontal
> along the ship's side,, extending aft from the cathead.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
What more can one say?
Bruce


From goodtracks at GBRonline.com  Mon Aug 30 02:50:14 2004
From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 21:50:14 -0500
Subject: HIDATSA
Message-ID: <SUN.29.AUG.2004.215014.0500.>

Actually its not even close.  It is from a "sound verb", for lack of a
better term.  It referrs to the "Whinnying of a horse in a distance".
Perhaps it is from:  naa'ga =  the young of anything, and    ho- =  as in
the IOM "hotun" =  sound of an animal or bird.   The "-sh" is often suffixed
to names of persons.  My Hidatsa is quite limited, so John B may be able to
say more.

Interestingly, I learned during the interrim of the final services, that the
reknown L&C "Bird Woman", Sakakawea [Chagaa'ga + Mia via A.W.Jones' lexicon]
is/ was indeed Hidatsa language as is/ was the woman.  This is the claim by
a number of Hidatsa informants in the 1920s/ 1930s, and further attested to
by Bull Eye [Gidabi Isda], her grandson and only living decendent in 1930s.
Her confusion as a Lehmi Shoshone, as per the L&C journal came about as a
result of her marriage to T.Charboneau and his trading espeditions to the
mountain areas, where Saka'gaMia (as per the pronunciation of the 3Tribes
Museum staffer and another speaker--a grandson of Walter YoungBear.  Wolf
Chief in a statement in the 1920s indicated that the Hidatsa would not have
ventured that far because of respect to their enemies.  He suggested that
perhaps the Crow went to Shoshone land and captured someone, but the L&C
accepted history was incorrect.  And I bet noone is willing to bet on the
present day liklihood of the US Historians rewritting their version of
history and the events even though the Hidatsa informants and other early
century documentation tends to collaborate the Native version of the
accounts.
jgt

----- Original Message -----
From: "Koontz John E" <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: HIDATSA ELDER


> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Jimm GoodTracks wrote:
>
> Requiscat in pacem, senior Baker.
>
> I notice that NagaraHash looks a bit like the Ioway-Otoe variant of the
> "English(man)" term.
>


From lcumberl at indiana.edu  Tue Aug 31 13:39:38 2004
From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 08:39:38 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Re: "vertitive"
Message-ID: <TUE.31.AUG.2004.083938.0500.>


I wrote to Terry Kaufman to ask where he first used the term "vertitive" so I
could provide a citation and got this (surprising) reply. I'm forwarding it to
the list with his permission.

Linda

----- Forwarded message from TzajinKajaw at aol.com -----
    Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:15:25 EDT
    From: TzajinKajaw at aol.com
Reply-To: TzajinKajaw at aol.com
 Subject: Re: "vertitive"
      To: lcumberl at indiana.edu

I coined the term "verititve" and used it for a few years beginning in 1960;
around 1970 I reconsidered the derivation and changed it to versive.  But it
doesn't mean "going back, returning": it means "to become noun/adjective", and
is I believe pretty near a universal category/function; this term was devised
by me before some grammarians started misapplying the term "inchoative", which
really means "to get started doing something"

The category you are referreing to, I think, is one that I call "voltative",
and refers to coming back after going somewhere: this category is common in
Zapotec.

Best wishes,
Terry Kaufman

----- End forwarded message -----


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From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Tue Aug 31 14:12:51 2004
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:12:51 -0500
Subject: HIDATSA
In-Reply-To: <002301c48e3c$17322240$9c650945@JIMM>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.AUG.2004.091251.0500.>

Jimm GoodTracks wrote:

>Interestingly, I learned during the interrim of the final services, that the
>reknown L&C "Bird Woman", Sakakawea [Chagaa'ga + Mia via A.W.Jones' lexicon]
>is/ was indeed Hidatsa language as is/ was the woman.  This is the claim by
>a number of Hidatsa informants in the 1920s/ 1930s, and further attested to
>by Bull Eye [Gidabi Isda], her grandson and only living decendent in 1930s.
>Her confusion as a Lehmi Shoshone, as per the L&C journal came about as a
>result of her marriage to T.Charboneau and his trading espeditions to the
>mountain areas, where Saka'gaMia (as per the pronunciation of the 3Tribes
>Museum staffer and another speaker--a grandson of Walter YoungBear.  Wolf
>Chief in a statement in the 1920s indicated that the Hidatsa would not have
>ventured that far because of respect to their enemies.  He suggested that
>perhaps the Crow went to Shoshone land and captured someone, but the L&C
>accepted history was incorrect.  And I bet noone is willing to bet on the
>present day liklihood of the US Historians rewritting their version of
>history and the events even though the Hidatsa informants and other early
>century documentation tends to collaborate the Native version of the
>accounts.
>
>
There are several references in the L & C journals to Sacagawea's
Shoshone origins (including her recognition of landmarks in the
Shoshones' country and her reunion with her brother) and to her capture
by Hidatsas. L & C had no apparent reason to misrepresent her ethnic
origin, and it seems to me very unlikely that they did.

Here's the Sacagawea entry from my Lewis and Clark Lexicon that's to be
published this Fall. (I hope the HTML comes through OK.)

Sacagawea  {s at -cah-gah-wee-@} A teenaged Shoshone Indian (sister of
Cameahwait) who had been captured by the Hidatsa in a raid and was
living with her husband Toussaint Charbonneau when the expedition
arrived. Carrying her infant son Pomp, she accompanied Lewis and Clark
to the Pacific and back and was a valuable interpreter with the Snakes,
a guide (in the vicinity of her home), and a gatherer of wild plants.

Sacagawea's fate after the expedition is uncertain, but Clark notes her
as deceased by the late 1820s, and John Luttig, a fur-trader, says in
his journal entry for December 20, 1812, "this Evening the Wife of
Charbonneau a Snake Squaw, died of a putrid fever she was a good and the
best Women in the fort, aged abt 25 years she left a fine infant girl".
The death by what was perhaps typhus or typhoid fever of this unnamed
wife of Chabonneau occurred at Fort Manuel on the Missouri, near the
border between North and South Dakota.

Sâh-câh-gâh, we â, our Indian woman is very sick this evening; Capt. C.
blead her. [10 Jun 05  ML  4.276]

Sah-cah-gar-we-ah...was one of the female prisoners taken...tho' I
cannot discover that she shews any immotion of sorrow in recollecting
this event, or of joy in being again restored to her native country [28
Jul 05  ML  5.009]

The wife of Shabono our interpetr we find reconsiles all the Indians, as
to our friendly intentions[.] a woman with a party of men is a token of
peace [13 Oct 05  WC  5.268]

In the expedition journals, Sacagawea is often called simply the Indian
woman, the squaw, or Charbonneau's wife, and the captains apparently
nicknamed her Janey. See potato.

The indian woman...has been of great Service to me as a pilot through
this Country [13 Jul 06  WC  8.180]

The form of her name in the following quotation (referring to the
present-day Sacagawea River), is an example of  the use of m for w in
careful speech in the Hidatsa language. (This variation also occurs in
Ahwahaway and in Hidatsa a-wah-tee 'river, Missouri River' which Lewis
[4.246] writes Amahte.) This characteristic alternation, along with
Lewis's translation and his division of the name into two words, as well
as the close similarity of the name to the Hidatsa words for 'bird'
(tsah-kah-kah) and 'woman' (wee-ah / mee-ah), support the traditional
interpretation of Sacagawea's name as Bird Woman in Hidatsa, the
language of her captor-adopters, and its pronunciation with a hard g
rather than the j sound that later became popular.

this stream we called Sâh-câ-gar me-âh or bird woman's River, after our
interpreter the Snake woman. [20 May 05  ML  4.171]

Ordway writes her name as though he knew that wea meant simply 'woman'
and so omitted it.

Sahcahgah our Indian woman verry Sick & was bled. [10 Jun 05  JO  9.165]
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From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu  Tue Aug 31 16:09:18 2004
From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:09:18 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Re: "vertitive"
In-Reply-To: <1093959578.41347f9a5a330@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.AUG.2004.090918.0700.>

I remember Terry's use of "vertitive" from the time we were both in the
Berkeley linguistics department in the 1960s, but didn't know about his
switch to "versive". For the sake of historical accuracy, I feel I should
mention that "some grammarians" had already been using "inchoative" for the
"become" meaning for some time before that. It was most familiar to me from
Lounsbury's Oneida Verb Morphology, which was published in 1953 but was a
version of the dissertation he wrote in the late 1940s. (If anybody cares
to look, he introduced the "inchoative" derivational suffix on p. 78.) I
always felt uncomfortable with the term, as did Terry, and I wish something
else had caught on, but Iroquoianists and others are still calling it the
"inchoative". As Terry says, it's something that shows up in pretty nearly
all languages. I wouldn't mind if we all switched to "versive", but I guess
that won't happen.

Wally

--On Tuesday, August 31, 2004 8:39 AM -0500 lcumberl at indiana.edu wrote:

>
> I wrote to Terry Kaufman to ask where he first used the term "vertitive"
> so I could provide a citation and got this (surprising) reply. I'm
> forwarding it to the list with his permission.
>
> Linda
>
> ----- Forwarded message from TzajinKajaw at aol.com -----
>     Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:15:25 EDT
>     From: TzajinKajaw at aol.com
> Reply-To: TzajinKajaw at aol.com
>  Subject: Re: "vertitive"
>       To: lcumberl at indiana.edu
>
> I coined the term "verititve" and used it for a few years beginning in
> 1960;  around 1970 I reconsidered the derivation and changed it to
> versive.  But it  doesn't mean "going back, returning": it means "to
> become noun/adjective", and  is I believe pretty near a universal
> category/function; this term was devised  by me before some grammarians
> started misapplying the term "inchoative", which  really means "to get
> started doing something"
>
> The category you are referreing to, I think, is one that I call
> "voltative",  and refers to coming back after going somewhere: this
> category is common in  Zapotec.
>
> Best wishes,
> Terry Kaufman
>
> ----- End forwarded message -----
>
>


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue Aug 31 17:51:06 2004
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:51:06 -0600
Subject: Chadic Term:  Ventive
Message-ID: <TUE.31.AUG.2004.115106.0600.>

The Chadicist term for the "and return" past forms is ventive.

John E. Koontz
http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue Aug 31 17:49:39 2004
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:49:39 -0600
Subject: Second Dative
Message-ID: <TUE.31.AUG.2004.114939.0600.>

For what it's worth, I believe the earlier use of 'second dative' is in
Dorsey's article 'Phonology of Five Siouan Languages' (title approximate).

I think the use of the expression ablaut for the final vowel variations
comes from the Colorado Lakhota Project and its participants.

John E. Koontz
http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz


From Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc  Tue Aug 31 17:59:41 2004
From: Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc (Louis Garcia)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 12:59:41 -0500
Subject: HIDATSA
In-Reply-To: <41348763.3050301@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.AUG.2004.125941.0500.>


  Members:
  When I taught at the ft. Berhold Community College (1990-96),
  I collected about 150 Hidasta place names.
  One is called Sagagawish aru saha or where Sakakawia is buried.
  It is located about where the Lewis and Clark campsite of the April 20,
1805 was on the north bank of the Missouri River.
  This is the place that Bulls Eye mentions in his account of his
grandmother.
  Later,
  LouieG
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From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Aug 31 19:23:35 2004
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:23:35 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Re: "vertitive"
Message-ID: <TUE.31.AUG.2004.142335.0500.>

Yes, "inchoative" is one of those terms I always had to look up again (usually
twice) whenever I encountered it in the literature.  Another such term is
"aorist".  "Irrealis" isn't much better, although it should be; it includes so
many different things in different languages.  I think "vertitive" is pretty
deeply ensconced in Siouan linguistics now and would be hard to replace.  :-)

Bob


From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Aug 31 19:40:44 2004
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:40:44 -0500
Subject: Second Dative
Message-ID: <TUE.31.AUG.2004.144044.0500.>

Is this in answer to an earlier query on the list?  If so, I'm not getting all
the postings for some reason.  I've been pretty careful about looking for posts
among the tagged SPAM items the KU server sends me.

Bob

> For what it's worth, I believe the earlier use of 'second dative' is in
> Dorsey's article 'Phonology of Five Siouan Languages' (title approximate).
>
> I think the use of the expression ablaut for the final vowel variations
> comes from the Colorado Lakhota Project and its participants.
>
> John E. Koontz
> http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz


From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Aug  1 00:40:03 2004
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 19:40:03 -0500
Subject: Vice President Curtis's chair again.
Message-ID: <SAT.31.JUL.2004.194003.0500.>

I've just received the latest copy of the "Kanza News", the newsletter of the
Kaw Nation, and it features a cover photo of the chair that has the seal we
discussed on the list last year.  There is also an article on the chair inside
by Crystal Douglas, the staff archaeologist for the Kaws and curator of their
museum.  She basically quotes a lot of the material we exchanged and mentions
Carolyn Quintero, John Koontz, Rory Larson and Louis Garcia (and myself) by
name.  If any of those mentioned would like a copy of the article, I can mail
you one if I have your postal address.

The article doesn't really add to what we already knew, except for a photo of
the whole chair, but it's nice to have the publicity.

Bob


From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net  Sun Aug  1 15:45:36 2004
From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Q.)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 10:45:36 -0500
Subject: Vice President Curtis's chair again.
In-Reply-To: <002201c47760$16b67ac0$2bb5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <SUN.1.AUG.2004.104536.0500.>

I would like a copy, thanks.
Carolyn

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of R. Rankin
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 7:40 PM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: Vice President Curtis's chair again.


I've just received the latest copy of the "Kanza News", the newsletter of the
Kaw Nation, and it features a cover photo of the chair that has the seal we
discussed on the list last year.  There is also an article on the chair inside
by Crystal Douglas, the staff archaeologist for the Kaws and curator of their
museum.  She basically quotes a lot of the material we exchanged and mentions
Carolyn Quintero, John Koontz, Rory Larson and Louis Garcia (and myself) by
name.  If any of those mentioned would like a copy of the article, I can mail
you one if I have your postal address.

The article doesn't really add to what we already knew, except for a photo of
the whole chair, but it's nice to have the publicity.

Bob


From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Aug  1 17:53:22 2004
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 12:53:22 -0500
Subject: Vice President Curtis's chair again.
Message-ID: <SUN.1.AUG.2004.125322.0500.>

I'll get it xeroxed and out in the next day or two.  I think what happened is
that Justin just forwarded Crystal the email exchanges (or maybe I had sent him
a copy of the Siouan Conf. paper from Michigan), and she just sort of summarized
things.

You might want to pick up an introductory text book on acoustic phonetics to
refer to when you use Praat and other software.  I know that accented vowels are
inherently longer than unaccented ones; vowels in open syllables are inherently
longer than the same vowels in closed syllables; lower vowels are inherently
longer than high vowels, but I don't know the details.  There may also be
inherent differences between nasal vowels and the corresponding oral ones (with
the nasal V's longer).  And if you have long and short vowels, they'll measure
out differently in the different environments, i.e., a short, accented vowel may
actually be longer in milliseconds than an unaccented long vowel in a closed
syllable, etc.  You have to figure out the various contexts and then measure all
the contrasting vowels, both long and short, in that context.  I expect you knew
all of this, but there are lots of details to consider, and I haven't really
begun to look at most of them.

Cheers,

Bob

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carolyn Q." <cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 10:45 AM
Subject: RE: Vice President Curtis's chair again.


> I would like a copy, thanks.
> Carolyn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of R. Rankin
> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 7:40 PM
> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> Subject: Vice President Curtis's chair again.
>
>
> I've just received the latest copy of the "Kanza News", the newsletter of the
> Kaw Nation, and it features a cover photo of the chair that has the seal we
> discussed on the list last year.  There is also an article on the chair inside
> by Crystal Douglas, the staff archaeologist for the Kaws and curator of their
> museum.  She basically quotes a lot of the material we exchanged and mentions
> Carolyn Quintero, John Koontz, Rory Larson and Louis Garcia (and myself) by
> name.  If any of those mentioned would like a copy of the article, I can mail
> you one if I have your postal address.
>
> The article doesn't really add to what we already knew, except for a photo of
> the whole chair, but it's nice to have the publicity.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>


From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net  Sun Aug  1 18:51:10 2004
From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Q.)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 13:51:10 -0500
Subject: Vice President Curtis's chair again.
In-Reply-To: <009a01c477f0$70e26c80$2bb5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <SUN.1.AUG.2004.135110.0500.>

Thanks, Bob.  I agree there's a lot to consider in analyzing the spectrograms.  I had already pulled Ladefoged's A Course in Phonetics to review the spectrograph stuff.  I hadn't reviewed this in many years.

(I had this as one of the only two texts we used in grad school, the other being  a Montague grammar text.  Alan Prince on day one said, here's this book which I expect you all to know the facts in, so we'll test on it in two weeks.  This also may have been the only test we had, i can't remember any others.)

At the same time, I'm still struggling with the software and trying to finish up the umpteenth round of simple editing.  Then at the end I'll use a search and replace function to lengthen any vowels detected to be long by Praat and our analysis.  Are you interested in trying to schedule the Praat short course for sometime next month?

Thanks,
Carolyn

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of R. Rankin
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 12:53 PM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: Re: Vice President Curtis's chair again.


I'll get it xeroxed and out in the next day or two.  I think what happened is
that Justin just forwarded Crystal the email exchanges (or maybe I had sent him
a copy of the Siouan Conf. paper from Michigan), and she just sort of summarized
things.

You might want to pick up an introductory text book on acoustic phonetics to
refer to when you use Praat and other software.  I know that accented vowels are
inherently longer than unaccented ones; vowels in open syllables are inherently
longer than the same vowels in closed syllables; lower vowels are inherently
longer than high vowels, but I don't know the details.  There may also be
inherent differences between nasal vowels and the corresponding oral ones (with
the nasal V's longer).  And if you have long and short vowels, they'll measure
out differently in the different environments, i.e., a short, accented vowel may
actually be longer in milliseconds than an unaccented long vowel in a closed
syllable, etc.  You have to figure out the various contexts and then measure all
the contrasting vowels, both long and short, in that context.  I expect you knew
all of this, but there are lots of details to consider, and I haven't really
begun to look at most of them.

Cheers,

Bob

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carolyn Q." <cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 10:45 AM
Subject: RE: Vice President Curtis's chair again.


> I would like a copy, thanks.
> Carolyn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of R. Rankin
> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 7:40 PM
> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> Subject: Vice President Curtis's chair again.
>
>
> I've just received the latest copy of the "Kanza News", the newsletter of the
> Kaw Nation, and it features a cover photo of the chair that has the seal we
> discussed on the list last year.  There is also an article on the chair inside
> by Crystal Douglas, the staff archaeologist for the Kaws and curator of their
> museum.  She basically quotes a lot of the material we exchanged and mentions
> Carolyn Quintero, John Koontz, Rory Larson and Louis Garcia (and myself) by
> name.  If any of those mentioned would like a copy of the article, I can mail
> you one if I have your postal address.
>
> The article doesn't really add to what we already knew, except for a photo of
> the whole chair, but it's nice to have the publicity.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>


From jmcbride at kayserv.net  Mon Aug  2 17:38:26 2004
From: jmcbride at kayserv.net (Justin McBride)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 12:38:26 -0500
Subject: Vice President Curtis's chair again.
Message-ID: <MON.2.AUG.2004.123826.0500.>

From: "R. Rankin" <rankin at ku.edu>

> I'll get it xeroxed and out in the next day or two.  I think what happened
is
> that Justin just forwarded Crystal the email exchanges (or maybe I had
sent him
> a copy of the Siouan Conf. paper from Michigan), and she just sort of
summarized
> things.

Actually, Crystal received some sort of press release or similar document
from an agency in Washington from which she distilled the information found
in her article.  (Was it from the agency that first desired research on
this?)  I think it would have been fun, though, if she could have seen prior
to writing up the piece how much SiouanList activity centered around the
identification/translation of the etching on the chair.  I guess I wasn't on
the ball enough, or I'd have forwarded her all that stuff to her.  Oh well,
I suppose I can do that the NEXT time someone finds an obscure Dhegiha text
on some big muckety-muck's furniture...   :)

By the way, the annual Kaw Pow Wow will be held here in Kaw City, OK, this
weekend (Aug. 6-8).  If you're free then, Dr. Rankin, it would sure be great
to see you.  And, of course, this invitation also goes out to any other
interested parties on the list.  I'd have mentioned the event sooner on the
list, but I've been so busy that the whole thing just sorta sneaked up on
me!  Anyhow, everyone should come down and see some good ol' fashioned
hospitality--and some good dancing, too!

-Justin


From rankin at ku.edu  Mon Aug  2 18:14:18 2004
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 13:14:18 -0500
Subject: Vice President Curtis's chair again.
Message-ID: <MON.2.AUG.2004.131418.0500.>

> Are you interested in trying to schedule the Praat short course for
sometime next month?

I'll need to wait until our resident phoneticians are back and talk with
them about it.  One of them might be interested in doing it with his
students included too.  I'll keep in touch about it, and it wouldn't
hurt for you to keep reminding me!  :-)

Bob


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Aug  2 23:02:27 2004
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 17:02:27 -0600
Subject: Schpelling
In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D01233ACE@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.2.AUG.2004.170227.0600.>

On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> > Are you interested in trying to schedule the Praat short course for
> > sometime next month?

Isn't prat British slang for something like "incompetent bungler"?  We
need training for that?

The aa reminds me of the period in which the CU PLains Center offices were
in the INSTAAR (Inst. for Arctic and Alpine Research) Building and Bob,
visiting to work on the CSD, would insist that the INSTAAR sign next to
the stairway in the lobby was actually Dutch for "Entrance Stairway."

Another linguistic joke associated with the CSD is Willem de Reuse's
insistence that Le Francais, a popular breakfast (braakfast?) venue just
off campus, was to be pronounced Le Frankay, because there was no cedilla
under the c.  Incidentally, Le Francais has been reduced to a bakery only
and moved into cheaper digs somewhat in an industrial park.  The
restaurant is now a Le Peep.

My own favorite Le Francais memory is passing by on my way home from work
one evening and seeing the owner struggling to drag out a heavy box of day
old bread.  He was a stout old gentleman, so I asked if he needed any
help.  He looked me over, sized up my ratty old coat, and said, "No, but
if you are hungry I will give some anyway."  That was one of several
incidents that caused me to replace that coat.  Another was leaving it all
day in mid winter by the heavily frequented postal counter in the
Bookstore and coming back in the evening to find it still there. I knew
then that it was completely worthless.


From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk  Tue Aug  3 10:14:58 2004
From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 11:14:58 +0100
Subject: Schpelling
Message-ID: <TUE.3.AUG.2004.111458.0100.>

Yes, John, 'prat' does mean that.  it's an old word for the posterior,
preserved in 'pratfall', and the metaphorical extension t refer to
someone ill-regarded is not exclusive to UKEng.   The cominc potential
of the phonetics software Praat has not gone unnoticed in the UK, even
to a Dutch-user such as myself.  I wonder where the surname Pratt comes
from?

Anthony

>>> John.Koontz at colorado.edu 03/08/2004 00:02:27 >>>
On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> > Are you interested in trying to schedule the Praat short course
for
> > sometime next month?

Isn't prat British slang for something like "incompetent bungler"?  We
need training for that?

The aa reminds me of the period in which the CU PLains Center offices
were
in the INSTAAR (Inst. for Arctic and Alpine Research) Building and
Bob,
visiting to work on the CSD, would insist that the INSTAAR sign next
to
the stairway in the lobby was actually Dutch for "Entrance Stairway."

Another linguistic joke associated with the CSD is Willem de Reuse's
insistence that Le Francais, a popular breakfast (braakfast?) venue
just
off campus, was to be pronounced Le Frankay, because there was no
cedilla
under the c.  Incidentally, Le Francais has been reduced to a bakery
only
and moved into cheaper digs somewhat in an industrial park.  The
restaurant is now a Le Peep.

My own favorite Le Francais memory is passing by on my way home from
work
one evening and seeing the owner struggling to drag out a heavy box of
day
old bread.  He was a stout old gentleman, so I asked if he needed any
help.  He looked me over, sized up my ratty old coat, and said, "No,
but
if you are hungry I will give some anyway."  That was one of several
incidents that caused me to replace that coat.  Another was leaving it
all
day in mid winter by the heavily frequented postal counter in the
Bookstore and coming back in the evening to find it still there. I
knew
then that it was completely worthless.


From vstabler at esu1.org  Tue Aug  3 15:25:50 2004
From: vstabler at esu1.org (Vida Stabler)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 10:25:50 -0500
Subject: Vice President Curtis's chair again.
Message-ID: <TUE.3.AUG.2004.102550.0500.>

Hi Justin, good to read your email and to know you are still active in Kaw country.
How far away is the Pow-Wow from Macy??  Vida


Justin McBride wrote:

> From: +ACI-R. Rankin+ACI- +ADw-rankin+AEA-ku.edu+AD4-
>
> +AD4- I'll get it xeroxed and out in the next day or two.  I think what happened
> is
> +AD4- that Justin just forwarded Crystal the email exchanges (or maybe I had
> sent him
> +AD4- a copy of the Siouan Conf. paper from Michigan), and she just sort of
> summarized
> +AD4- things.
>
> Actually, Crystal received some sort of press release or similar document
> from an agency in Washington from which she distilled the information found
> in her article.  (Was it from the agency that first desired research on
> this?)  I think it would have been fun, though, if she could have seen prior
> to writing up the piece how much SiouanList activity centered around the
> identification/translation of the etching on the chair.  I guess I wasn't on
> the ball enough, or I'd have forwarded her all that stuff to her.  Oh well,
> I suppose I can do that the NEXT time someone finds an obscure Dhegiha text
> on some big muckety-muck's furniture...   :)
>
> By the way, the annual Kaw Pow Wow will be held here in Kaw City, OK, this
> weekend (Aug. 6-8).  If you're free then, Dr. Rankin, it would sure be great
> to see you.  And, of course, this invitation also goes out to any other
> interested parties on the list.  I'd have mentioned the event sooner on the
> list, but I've been so busy that the whole thing just sorta sneaked up on
> me+ACE-  Anyhow, everyone should come down and see some good ol' fashioned
> hospitality--and some good dancing, too+ACE-
>
> -Justin


From jmcbride at kayserv.net  Tue Aug  3 19:07:00 2004
From: jmcbride at kayserv.net (Justin McBride)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 14:07:00 -0500
Subject: Vice President Curtis's chair again.
Message-ID: <TUE.3.AUG.2004.140700.0500.>

> Hi Justin, good to read your email and to know you are still active in Kaw
country.
> How far away is the Pow-Wow from Macy??  Vida

Howdy, Vida!  Good to hear from you, too.  It's about 475 miles or so from
Macy to Kaw City (well, the powwow is in Washungah, actually).  If you do
make it down, please try and stop by the tribal headquarters for a
visit. -jm


From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Aug  3 19:49:55 2004
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 14:49:55 -0500
Subject: Praat
Message-ID: <TUE.3.AUG.2004.144955.0500.>

   :-)

For those not familiar with it, Praat is the name of a computer program that you
can use to analyze speech phonetically.  It is free and can be downloaded at
www.praat.org.  I downloaded it some time ago on recommendation of my resident
instrumental phonetician, but haven't found the time to get it up and running.
It could be used to analyze accent, pitch and length and their connections in
languages.

----- Original Message -----

> Isn't prat British slang for something like "incompetent bungler"?  We
> need training for that?


From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU  Tue Aug  3 22:10:55 2004
From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 16:10:55 -0600
Subject: Praat
In-Reply-To: <013001c47993$0e05a1a0$2bb5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <TUE.3.AUG.2004.161055.0600.>

Praat is very popular with both the DoBeS teams and our own graduate
students, but we (Armik and I) like the commercial program Sound Forge
much better.  It's not free, but I don't think it's outrageous, and it is
very easy to use -- it has to be if it's got me doing things with
spectrograms.

David


David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, R. Rankin wrote:

>    :-)
>
> For those not familiar with it, Praat is the name of a computer program that you
> can use to analyze speech phonetically.  It is free and can be downloaded at
> www.praat.org.  I downloaded it some time ago on recommendation of my resident
> instrumental phonetician, but haven't found the time to get it up and running.
> It could be used to analyze accent, pitch and length and their connections in
> languages.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> > Isn't prat British slang for something like "incompetent bungler"?  We
> > need training for that?
>


From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU  Wed Aug  4 02:07:05 2004
From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 20:07:05 -0600
Subject: Praat
Message-ID: <TUE.3.AUG.2004.200705.0600.>

I might have known Armik would offer more details and better advice -- he
can't write to the list for some reason, though he reads it -- and offers
this much better comparison between Praat and Sound Forge.  Since about
all I do with it is work with long video files, I guess that explains my
prejudice.

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 17:34:34 -0600 (MDT)
From: Mirzayan Armik <mirzayan at cslr.Colorado.EDU>
To: ROOD DAVID S <rood at spot.colorado.edu>
Subject: Re: Praat


David,

Just a few comments to add to this since I think there is more to it.
Please feel free to forward this to the list if you think it'll add
anything to the discussion.

Praat is a very good phonetician's tool and I have used it a lot in all my
phonetics courses, in writing papers, and in doing detailed voicing,
pitch-accent, and timing analysis of the Wichita conversation segments.

SoundForge is a good tool as well, but it covers a different domain. The
two softwares overlap, but each one is suited better for different
purpsoses. There are things that are much easier and better in Praat than
in SoundForge, and vice-versa. So, it is kind of difficult to compare the
two on very simple grounds.

Advantages of Praat:
	- It is suited for linguists.
	- Very good for analysis of pitch in words/utternace.
	- Very good for writing scripts to do repetative tasks over
	  a large number of sound files.
	- Has very good spectral analysis tools geared for linguists.
	- Very good for timing events accurately.
	- Produces nice postscript pictures of pitch tracks and
	  spectrograms for putting in papers.
	- Works on mulitple Operating Systems.
	- It's free and easy to install.

About Sound Forge:

While Sound Forge can do some of the above, it is not good at all of them.
It certainly is not free, and it doesn not work on multiple platforms. You
have to work more in SoundForge to get the spectrograms to look like the
kinds of spectrograms you see in phonetics books ...  But, it is very good
for our Wichita project because it has some features which are better
suited for digitizing long stereo quality sound files, making tracks,
archiving, copying and editing *very* long sound files, slicing up sound
very quickly, adding quick annotations, and many more featuers, some of
which I won't list and some of which I don't even know about.  Praat is
much slower for working with long stereo sound files. Sound Forge also
does video display and compression of sound into various formats rather
quickly (depending on the type of computer you use of course). So, which
tool one uses depends on the purpose of the researcher/project etc .... I
have used both tools for working with the Wichita material.

best,
Armik

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, ROOD DAVID S wrote:

>
> Praat is very popular with both the DoBeS teams and our own graduate
> students, but we (Armik and I) like the commercial program Sound Forge
> much better.  It's not free, but I don't think it's outrageous, and it is
> very easy to use -- it has to be if it's got me doing things with
> spectrograms.
>
> David
>
>
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> 295 UCB
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu
>
> On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, R. Rankin wrote:
>
> >    :-)
> >
> > For those not familiar with it, Praat is the name of a computer program that you
> > can use to analyze speech phonetically.  It is free and can be downloaded at
> > www.praat.org.  I downloaded it some time ago on recommendation of my resident
> > instrumental phonetician, but haven't found the time to get it up and running.
> > It could be used to analyze accent, pitch and length and their connections in
> > languages.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > > Isn't prat British slang for something like "incompetent bungler"?  We
> > > need training for that?
> >
>


From lcumberl at indiana.edu  Wed Aug  4 08:19:25 2004
From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 03:19:25 -0500
Subject: Praat
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408031609060.16199@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.4.AUG.2004.031925.0500.>

Well, then, I have a question for you and Armik - I use Sound Forge, too, but I
can't find settings that give me spectrograms clear enough to print.  what
settings do you use?

Linda

Quoting ROOD DAVID S <rood at spot.Colorado.EDU>:

>
> Praat is very popular with both the DoBeS teams and our own graduate
> students, but we (Armik and I) like the commercial program Sound Forge
> much better.  It's not free, but I don't think it's outrageous, and it is
> very easy to use -- it has to be if it's got me doing things with
> spectrograms.
>
> David
>
>
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> 295 UCB
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu
>
> On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, R. Rankin wrote:
>
> >    :-)
> >
> > For those not familiar with it, Praat is the name of a computer program
> that you
> > can use to analyze speech phonetically.  It is free and can be downloaded
> at
> > www.praat.org.  I downloaded it some time ago on recommendation of my
> resident
> > instrumental phonetician, but haven't found the time to get it up and
> running.
> > It could be used to analyze accent, pitch and length and their connections
> in
> > languages.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > > Isn't prat British slang for something like "incompetent bungler"?  We
> > > need training for that?
> >
>
>
>


From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net  Wed Aug  4 12:45:18 2004
From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Q.)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 07:45:18 -0500
Subject: sound forge and Praat
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408032005170.11120@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.4.AUG.2004.074518.0500.>

Armik and David,

Thanks for a very helpful discussion.

My version of SoundForge, "Screenblast Sound Forge" audio editing software
does not produce spectrograms (this is the less expensive version, around
$50.00) but is easy to use to edit sound files to eliminate silences and cut
and paste in general.  I like the feature of being able to quickly insert
markers and label them with the Osage words right on the sound file screen
at the appropriate point. However, background noise seems to be more of a
problem with Screenblast Sound Forge than with e.g. Cool Edit on the same
computer.

Any tips on getting started with Praat, some of the pitfalls, etc.? I've
tried to work with it a bit, but didn't find it very user-friendly.

Carolyn

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of ROOD DAVID S
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 9:07 PM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: Re: Praat



I might have known Armik would offer more details and better advice -- he
can't write to the list for some reason, though he reads it -- and offers
this much better comparison between Praat and Sound Forge.  Since about
all I do with it is work with long video files, I guess that explains my
prejudice.

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 17:34:34 -0600 (MDT)
From: Mirzayan Armik <mirzayan at cslr.Colorado.EDU>
To: ROOD DAVID S <rood at spot.colorado.edu>
Subject: Re: Praat


David,

Just a few comments to add to this since I think there is more to it.
Please feel free to forward this to the list if you think it'll add
anything to the discussion.

Praat is a very good phonetician's tool and I have used it a lot in all my
phonetics courses, in writing papers, and in doing detailed voicing,
pitch-accent, and timing analysis of the Wichita conversation segments.

SoundForge is a good tool as well, but it covers a different domain. The
two softwares overlap, but each one is suited better for different
purpsoses. There are things that are much easier and better in Praat than
in SoundForge, and vice-versa. So, it is kind of difficult to compare the
two on very simple grounds.

Advantages of Praat:
	- It is suited for linguists.
	- Very good for analysis of pitch in words/utternace.
	- Very good for writing scripts to do repetative tasks over
	  a large number of sound files.
	- Has very good spectral analysis tools geared for linguists.
	- Very good for timing events accurately.
	- Produces nice postscript pictures of pitch tracks and
	  spectrograms for putting in papers.
	- Works on mulitple Operating Systems.
	- It's free and easy to install.

About Sound Forge:

While Sound Forge can do some of the above, it is not good at all of them.
It certainly is not free, and it doesn not work on multiple platforms. You
have to work more in SoundForge to get the spectrograms to look like the
kinds of spectrograms you see in phonetics books ...  But, it is very good
for our Wichita project because it has some features which are better
suited for digitizing long stereo quality sound files, making tracks,
archiving, copying and editing *very* long sound files, slicing up sound
very quickly, adding quick annotations, and many more featuers, some of
which I won't list and some of which I don't even know about.  Praat is
much slower for working with long stereo sound files. Sound Forge also
does video display and compression of sound into various formats rather
quickly (depending on the type of computer you use of course). So, which
tool one uses depends on the purpose of the researcher/project etc .... I
have used both tools for working with the Wichita material.

best,
Armik

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, ROOD DAVID S wrote:

>
> Praat is very popular with both the DoBeS teams and our own graduate
> students, but we (Armik and I) like the commercial program Sound Forge
> much better.  It's not free, but I don't think it's outrageous, and it is
> very easy to use -- it has to be if it's got me doing things with
> spectrograms.
>
> David
>
>
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> 295 UCB
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu
>
> On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, R. Rankin wrote:
>
> >    :-)
> >
> > For those not familiar with it, Praat is the name of a computer program
that you
> > can use to analyze speech phonetically.  It is free and can be
downloaded at
> > www.praat.org.  I downloaded it some time ago on recommendation of my
resident
> > instrumental phonetician, but haven't found the time to get it up and
running.
> > It could be used to analyze accent, pitch and length and their
connections in
> > languages.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > > Isn't prat British slang for something like "incompetent bungler"?  We
> > > need training for that?
> >
>


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Wed Aug  4 21:15:36 2004
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 16:15:36 -0500
Subject: Prat(t)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408031609060.16199@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.4.AUG.2004.161536.0500.>

Prat(t) as an adj. meant 'cunning, astute' in Middle English. The origin
of prat 'backside' (first recorded in the 16c.) is unknown.

Alan


From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk  Thu Aug  5 12:10:20 2004
From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:10:20 +0100
Subject: Prat(t)
Message-ID: <THU.5.AUG.2004.131020.0100.>

ah, like the old sense of German praechtig then.

Anthony

>>> ahartley at d.umn.edu 04/08/2004 22:15:36 >>>
Prat(t) as an adj. meant 'cunning, astute' in Middle English. The
origin
of prat 'backside' (first recorded in the 16c.) is unknown.

Alan


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Fri Aug  6 07:18:01 2004
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:18:01 +0200
Subject: prat(t)
Message-ID: <FRI.6.AUG.2004.091801.0200.>

 > ah, like the old sense of German praechtig then.<<


 >> Prat(t) as an adj. meant 'cunning, astute' in Middle English. The
origin of prat 'backside' (first recorded in the 16c.) is unknown.<<<<


I don't think so: German _pr?chtig_ (praechtig) is related to _Pracht_
(pomp, glory, splendour etc.).

Pracht f. (< 8. Jhd.). Mhd. braht m. lf. 'L?rm, Geschrei' (clamour, hue
etc.), ahd. braht, as. braht m. from vd. * brahta-, along with ae.
bearhtm m., as. brahtum m. 'L?rm, Menge' (clamour, whooping etc., mass,
crowd). obviously cognate with l. suffragium n. 'Abstimmung, Beifall'
(vote, applause/acclamation) i.e. 'zustimmender L?rm'
(assenting/approving clamour).

Alfred


From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU  Fri Aug  6 15:39:03 2004
From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:39:03 -0600
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <411330A9.9030503@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.AUG.2004.093903.0600.>

>
>  obviously cognate with l. suffragium n. 'Abstimmung, Beifall'
> (vote, applause/acclamation) i.e. 'zustimmender L?rm'
> (assenting/approving clamour).

	Not at all obvious to me.  Germanic /p/ should correspond to Latin
/b/, not /f/ (slippery, lubricus), and where's the Latin equivalent of the
/t/??  I know my Indo-European is rusty, but this doesn't seem at all
right.

	I've been wondering whether "prattle" is a pejorative diminutive
of this word.  There aren't very many of those in English.

>
David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu


From mary.marino at usask.ca  Fri Aug  6 15:57:22 2004
From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Mary Marino)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:57:22 -0600
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408060917500.26759@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.AUG.2004.095722.0600.>

'Prattle'  is a diminutive of 'prate' -  the latter meaning to talk
officiously or pompously, the former meaning to talk idly or foolishly - to
gab, or to talk like a child.  As applied to children is it not
pejorative.  This is discussed in the OED.

Mary



At 09:39 AM 8/6/2004, you wrote:
> >
> >  obviously cognate with l. suffragium n. 'Abstimmung, Beifall'
> > (vote, applause/acclamation) i.e. 'zustimmender L?rm'
> > (assenting/approving clamour).
>
>         Not at all obvious to me.  Germanic /p/ should correspond to Latin
>/b/, not /f/ (slippery, lubricus), and where's the Latin equivalent of the
>/t/??  I know my Indo-European is rusty, but this doesn't seem at all
>right.
>
>         I've been wondering whether "prattle" is a pejorative diminutive
>of this word.  There aren't very many of those in English.
>
> >
>David S. Rood
>Dept. of Linguistics
>Univ. of Colorado
>295 UCB
>Boulder, CO 80309-0295
>USA
>rood at colorado.edu


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Aug  6 16:05:34 2004
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:05:34 -0600
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408060917500.26759@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.AUG.2004.100534.0600.>

On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, ROOD DAVID S wrote:
> Germanic /p/ should correspond to Latin /b/, not /f/ (slippery,
> lubricus), and where's the Latin equivalent of the /t/??  I know my
> Indo-European is rusty, but this doesn't seem at all right.

I have the impression that native sources of p in German are rare.  Does
*/__r preserve PIE *p?

> I've been wondering whether "prattle" is a pejorative diminutive
> of this word.  There aren't very many of those in English.

I think Bob Rankin once suggested scat :: skittle, cf. shit.  (I don't
think sk in skittle could be native English, however.)


From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk  Fri Aug  6 16:55:13 2004
From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 17:55:13 +0100
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
Message-ID: <FRI.6.AUG.2004.175513.0100.>

>>> John.Koontz at colorado.edu 06/08/2004 17:05:34 >>>
On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, ROOD DAVID S wrote:
> Germanic /p/ should correspond to Latin /b/, not /f/ (slippery,
> lubricus), and where's the Latin equivalent of the /t/??  I know my
> Indo-European is rusty, but this doesn't seem at all right.

Dear John:

I have the impression that native sources of p in German are rare.
Does
*/__r preserve PIE *p?

-No it doesn't.  IE *pr becomes /fr/.  Latin primus - English first,
that sort of thing. Inherited English /p/ goes back to PIE /b/.

> I've been wondering whether "prattle" is a pejorative diminutive
> of this word.  There aren't very many of those in English.

I think Bob Rankin once suggested scat :: skittle, cf. shit.  (I don't
think sk in skittle could be native English, however.)

-Nor could sc- in scat.  /sk-/ in Middle English words is a sigh of
them being Latin, French or Norse rather than OE.

-anthony


From rankin at ku.edu  Fri Aug  6 18:07:48 2004
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 13:07:48 -0500
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
Message-ID: <FRI.6.AUG.2004.130748.0500.>

> I think Bob Rankin once suggested scat :: skittle, cf. shit.  (I don't
> think sk in skittle could be native English, however.)

Maybe Scandowegian.  As Mary says, I'm sure all this is covered in OED.  Weren't
we talking about these SK clusters at the conference (ship, skiff, skipper,
etc.)?

Bob


From boris at terracom.net  Fri Aug  6 18:20:25 2004
From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 13:20:25 -0500
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <002601c47be0$48e25620$10b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.AUG.2004.132025.0500.>

Most of the 'sk' nautical terms are Dutch or Low German,  skiff is
Dutch, skipper, altho cognate, is Low German ("Saxon, " actually a
separate language).


Alan K

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of R. Rankin
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 1:08 PM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: Re: prat(t) (but not Siouan)

> I think Bob Rankin once suggested scat :: skittle, cf. shit.  (I don't
> think sk in skittle could be native English, however.)

Maybe Scandowegian.  As Mary says, I'm sure all this is covered in OED.
Weren't
we talking about these SK clusters at the conference (ship, skiff,
skipper,
etc.)?

Bob


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Fri Aug  6 20:22:02 2004
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 22:22:02 +0200
Subject: prat(t)
Message-ID: <FRI.6.AUG.2004.222202.0200.>

>> obviously cognate with l. suffragium n. 'Abstimmung, Beifall'
(vote, applause/acclamation) i.e. 'zustimmender L?rm'
(assenting/approving clamour).<<<<

 > Not at all obvious to me.  Germanic /p/ should correspond to Latin
/b/, not /f/ (slippery, lubricus), and where's the Latin equivalent of
the /t/??  I know my Indo-European is rusty, but this doesn't seem at
all right.<<


I tend to agree with your questioning this, yet this is what Kluge
(Etymologisches W?rterbuch der deutschen Sprache, de Gruyter, Berlin
1995) - as kind of an obiter dictum - literally gives:

"(...) Offenbar urverwandtes l. suffragium n. 'Abstimmung, Beifall'
zeigt, dass von 'zustimmender L?rm, Akklamation' auszugehen ist. (...)"


Alfred


From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU  Sat Aug  7 04:19:23 2004
From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 22:19:23 -0600
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <00b101c47be2$0f0ca9d0$ab5faad0@alscom>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.AUG.2004.221923.0600.>

Now I'm embarrassed, except for the fact that none of the rest of you
caught this before I did.  All the forms (of German Pracht, praechtig) in
the list that Alfred sent except the modern German one begin with /b/, not
/p/; the /p/ must be the result of some kind of dialect borrowing or other
irregularity in the history of German; it's not the second sound shift
(Hochdeutsche Lautverschiebung), unless I really have forgotten everything
I once knew about the histories of these languages.  So English prat and
German Pracht can't be directly cognate -- English should have /b/ or
German should have /pf/.  And the correct correspondence is then Latin /f/
to Germanic /b/, as in brother/Bruder to frater.  So I guess the Kluge
entry does make sense after all, and maybe Anthony's analogy with the
semantic evolution is accurate, but the two words are not phonological
cognates.
	Maybe we should drop Indo-European again now and get back to
Siouan; I'm sorry for the distraction.  Did you all read Willem de Reuse's
very thoughtful review of the new edition of Buechel in the most recent
(April) IJAL?  He says we're working on a Lakota dictionary here, but
that's only in our dreams.  There's a major project waiting for someone.

David

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Alan Knutson wrote:

> Most of the 'sk' nautical terms are Dutch or Low German,  skiff is
> Dutch, skipper, altho cognate, is Low German ("Saxon, " actually a
> separate language).
>
>
> Alan K
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of R. Rankin
> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 1:08 PM
> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> Subject: Re: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
>
> > I think Bob Rankin once suggested scat :: skittle, cf. shit.  (I don't
> > think sk in skittle could be native English, however.)
>
> Maybe Scandowegian.  As Mary says, I'm sure all this is covered in OED.
> Weren't
> we talking about these SK clusters at the conference (ship, skiff,
> skipper,
> etc.)?
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Sat Aug  7 08:00:13 2004
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 10:00:13 +0200
Subject: prat(t)
Message-ID: <SAT.7.AUG.2004.100013.0200.>

>Now I'm embarrassed, except for the fact that none of the rest of you
caught this before I did.  All the forms (of German Pracht, praechtig)
in the list that Alfred sent except the modern German one begin with
/b/, not /p/; the /p/ must be the result of some kind of dialect
borrowing or other irregularity in the history of German; it's not the
second sound shift (Hochdeutsche Lautverschiebung), unless I really have
forgotten everything I once knew about the histories of these languages.
  So English prat and German Pracht can't be directly cognate -- English
should have /b/ or German should have /pf/. <<

Sorry, too ;-), as last night, it came to my mind that the shift of
Latin /f/ to Middle High German /b/ (braht) etc. was not the problem,
but that of /b/ -> /p/ in German. (If I'm not mistaken, I found another
example of - maybe? - this kind: l. fungus -> boletus -> Pilz
(mushroom); but it might be that fungus and boletus are not at all
cognates. BTW, the final consonant in German Pilz is /ts/ (cf. Romanian
bureti, pl. with the l. /t/ shifting to /ts/ before /i/ [bure'ts]).

Yet, we'd better stick to Siouan ;-)


Alfred


From rwd0002 at unt.edu  Sat Aug  7 16:26:03 2004
From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 11:26:03 -0500
Subject: praat and Buechel
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408062156000.17422@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.7.AUG.2004.112603.0500.>

Hi all:

Maybe we should drop Indo-European again now and get back to
> Siouan; I'm sorry for the distraction.  Did you all read Willem de Reuse's
> very thoughtful review of the new edition of Buechel in the most recent
> (April) IJAL?  He says we're working on a Lakota dictionary here, but
> that's only in our dreams.  There's a major project waiting for someone.

Thanks David, for kindly mentioning my review of Buechel in order to get back
to Siouan. It is a not criticism of the project being stalled of course, but
basically saying that the new Buechel is definitely not the answer to our
Lakotanist lexicographical dreams.

As a Dutch speaker, I can't resist putting in my two cents on the word praat
which means 'talk' in Dutch, either as the imperative of the verb 'praten' or
the noun 'talk'.  My Dutch etymological dictionary has possible cognates High
German dialectal pfattern 'to mumble' and Old Norse pati 'rumor, gossip', but
that most likely this is just West Germanic. One more reason to let go of Indo-
European.

Willem



















































































From goodtracks at GBRonline.com  Fri Aug 13 03:24:02 2004
From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:24:02 -0500
Subject: HIDATSA ELDER
Message-ID: <THU.12.AUG.2004.222402.0500.>

Sadly, another elder passes on...
Clement "Finigan" NagaraHash Baker.  1932 to August 11, 2004.  72yoa.

One of the few remaining fluent Hidatsa speakers in the Mandaree, ND
area.......


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Aug 13 17:11:02 2004
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:11:02 -0600
Subject: HIDATSA ELDER
In-Reply-To: <000d01c480e5$0b40aab0$73640945@JIMM>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.AUG.2004.111102.0600.>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Jimm GoodTracks wrote:
> Clement "Finigan" NagaraHash Baker.

Requiscat in pacem, senior Baker.

I notice that NagaraHash looks a bit like the Ioway-Otoe variant of the
"English(man)" term.


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Sat Aug 14 07:03:15 2004
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:03:15 +0200
Subject: Hidatsa Elder
Message-ID: <SAT.14.AUG.2004.090315.0200.>

 >Clement "Finigan" NagaraHash Baker.

Requiscat in pacem, senior Baker.<<

Shouldn't it be "Requiescat in pace" ?

"Sit ei (tibi) terra levis!" etc.
Do you know of phrases in Siouan languages comparable to these (be it
from a traditional or Christian background)?

Alfred


From Rgraczyk at aol.com  Sat Aug 14 14:51:58 2004
From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Randolph Graczyk)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 10:51:58 EDT
Subject: Hidatsa Elder
Message-ID: <SAT.14.AUG.2004.105158.EDT.>

In the Crow tradition prayers at the time of death are primarily for the
survivors, the mourners.  You might say something like Daasu'ua annashtache'esh
iha'ahiakuh 'take away the heaviness from their hearts'.

Randy
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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Sat Aug 14 18:18:15 2004
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 20:18:15 +0200
Subject: Hidatsa Elder
Message-ID: <SAT.14.AUG.2004.201815.0200.>

 >"Sit ei (tibi) terra levis!" etc.
Do you know of phrases in Siouan languages comparable to these (be it
from a traditional or Christian background)?<<

 >>In the Crow tradition prayers at the time of death are primarily for
the survivors, the mourners.  You might say something like Daasu'ua
annashtache'esh iha'ahiakuh 'take away the heaviness from their
hearts'.<<<<<

Interesting!
In a still more subtle way, the Aramaic Mourner's Kaddish also cares for
the survivors (and the praying mourner himself), getting consolation and
hope by praising His great name (sh'meh raba).

cf. http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de/KADDISH.RXML

Alfred


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Aug 15 03:04:45 2004
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 21:04:45 -0600
Subject: Hidatsa Elder
In-Reply-To: <411DB933.2090707@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <SAT.14.AUG.2004.210445.0600.>

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote:
> Shouldn't it be "Requiescat in pace" ?

Probably.  My Latin isn't very good.


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Tue Aug 17 14:01:41 2004
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:01:41 +0100
Subject: Hidatsa Elder
In-Reply-To: <411DB933.2090707@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.AUG.2004.150141.0100.>

On 14/8/04 8:03 am, "Alfred W. T?ting" <ti at fa-kuan.muc.de> wrote:

>> Clement "Finigan" NagaraHash Baker.
>
> Requiscat in pacem, senior Baker.<<
>
> Shouldn't it be "Requiescat in pace" ?
>
> "Sit ei (tibi) terra levis!" etc.
> Do you know of phrases in Siouan languages comparable to these (be it
> from a traditional or Christian background)?
>
> Alfred
>
>
>
>
I suppose in pacem would mean 'into peace', but is not the normal phrase.
Am I right that in Lakota people just say otexike meaning 'it is hard' ?
Bruce *


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue Aug 17 15:53:08 2004
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:53:08 -0600
Subject: Hidatsa Elder
In-Reply-To: <BD47CE55.11AE%bi1@soas.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.AUG.2004.095308.0600.>

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Bruce Ingham wrote:
> I suppose in pacem would mean 'into peace', but is not the normal phrase.
> Am I right that in Lakota people just say otexike meaning 'it is hard' ?

Yes, I'm afraid I reconstructed it from the traditional initials, memory,
and a very weak knowledge of Latin, and got it crossed up with Dona (?)
nobis pacem.  I guess the moral is, "Look up before you spout."


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Tue Aug 17 16:03:04 2004
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 17:03:04 +0100
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <00b101c47be2$0f0ca9d0$ab5faad0@alscom>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.AUG.2004.170304.0100.>

On 6/8/04 7:20 pm, "Alan Knutson" <boris at terracom.net> wrote:

> Most of the 'sk' nautical terms are Dutch or Low German,  skiff is
> Dutch, skipper, altho cognate, is Low German ("Saxon, " actually a
> separate language).
>
>
> Alan K
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of R. Rankin
> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 1:08 PM
> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> Subject: Re: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
>
>> I think Bob Rankin once suggested scat :: skittle, cf. shit.  (I don't
>> think sk in skittle could be native English, however.)
>
> Maybe Scandowegian.  As Mary says, I'm sure all this is covered in OED.
> Weren't
> we talking about these SK clusters at the conference (ship, skiff,
> skipper,
> etc.)?
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
>
Don't forget English skipper.  Presumably Norse from skip
Bruce


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Tue Aug 17 16:34:20 2004
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:34:20 -0500
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <BD47EAC8.11C0%bi1@soas.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.AUG.2004.113420.0500.>

Bruce Ingham wrote:

> Don't forget English skipper.  Presumably Norse from skip

OED says Middle Dutch or Middle Low German, Amer. Heritage and Random
House say MDu.

Alan


From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Aug 17 21:53:27 2004
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:53:27 -0500
Subject: Curtis chair press release.
Message-ID: <TUE.17.AUG.2004.165327.0500.>


      April 26th, 2004

      BILLINGS RESIDENT LOANS IMPORTANT ARTIFACT TO CAPITOL

      WASHINGTON, D.C. - U.S. Sen. Conrad Burns (R-Mont.) announced the loan of
a chair belonging to Vice President Charles Curtis for display purposes in the
Vice President?s ceremonial office in the United States Capitol. The chair is on
indefinite renewable loan to the Senate from Lowell E. Baier of Billings, MT.

      ?I am pleased to see that this chair is being recognized as the valuable
artifact it is,? said Burns. ?The chair represents our strong history as a
country and as a government, and I am glad Lowell has agreed to allow it to be
used in this context where many people will be able to witness it beauty and
grandeur.?

      The hand carved walnut chair is inscribed in both English and Native
American languages and was presented to Vice President Charles Curtis by the
?Original Curtis Boys and Matthew Quay Glaser,? around 1929. The elaborately
carved backrest is inscribed with ?To Our Chief / Charles Curtis / Vice
President of the United States.? Centered on the backrest is a medallion profile
of a Native American Indian and a Kaw inscription that translates to read
?Friend, Go on in the Best of Health, This Is Our Wish.?

      Charles Curtis (1860-1936), was directly descended from White Plume, a Kaw
chief, and Pawhuska, an Osage chief. Curtis served as 31st vice president of the
United States under President Herbert Hoover. He served in the U.S. House of
Representatives from 1893 to 1907, and in the U.S. Senate from 1907 to 1913 and
1915 to 1929. One of Curtis? proudest achievements in the Senate was his effort
to pass the 19th Amendment, granting women the right to vote.

      ###
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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Aug 18 01:15:31 2004
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:15:31 -0600
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <4122338C.9010504@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.AUG.2004.191531.0600.>

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> Bruce Ingham wrote:
> > Don't forget English skipper.  Presumably Norse from skip
> OED says Middle Dutch or Middle Low German, Amer. Heritage and Random
> House say MDu.

I believe a lot of English nautical terminology is of "recent" Dutch
origin (1500s on?).  This was an area of international borrowing in the
past.  And a surprising number of obscure idioms and words in English turn
out to be nautical in origin, e.g., "in the offing" or "aloof."  (I think
these are both good!)  Alan and I have discussed some of this on the side
briefly in the past out of mutual interest.  Of course, his knowledge of
both shipping and etymology in a professional sense is far ahead of mine,
and he tends to look things up first and speak second, so our exchanges
tends to consist of eager suggestions by me and patient corrections by
him.


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Wed Aug 18 14:08:05 2004
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:08:05 -0500
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408171906540.12799@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.18.AUG.2004.090805.0500.>

> I believe a lot of English nautical terminology is of "recent" Dutch
> origin (1500s on?).

That's right. I think nautical borrowings from Dutch occurred mostly in
the late Middle English to early Modern Eng. period (i.e., up till early
17c.) The borrowing accompanied the dominance of the Hanseatic trading
network in the Baltic and North Sea.

> his knowledge of
> both shipping and etymology in a professional sense is far ahead of mine

John is too kind. I (and the OED) owe much more (especially in the way
of ethnonym etymologies) to him and other Siouan list members than he to me!

Alan


From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU  Wed Aug 18 14:39:59 2004
From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 08:39:59 -0600
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408171906540.12799@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.18.AUG.2004.083959.0600.>

	Along these lines, my father used to insist that the correct
spelling for the expression "under way", as in "let's get this project
under way", was really "under weigh", as in weighing anchor.  Does anyone
know anything more about that?  I've been laughed at more than once for
perpetuating his idea.

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Koontz John E wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> > Bruce Ingham wrote:
> > > Don't forget English skipper.  Presumably Norse from skip
> > OED says Middle Dutch or Middle Low German, Amer. Heritage and Random
> > House say MDu.
>
> I believe a lot of English nautical terminology is of "recent" Dutch
> origin (1500s on?).  This was an area of international borrowing in the
> past.  And a surprising number of obscure idioms and words in English turn
> out to be nautical in origin, e.g., "in the offing" or "aloof."  (I think
> these are both good!)  Alan and I have discussed some of this on the side
> briefly in the past out of mutual interest.  Of course, his knowledge of
> both shipping and etymology in a professional sense is far ahead of mine,
> and he tends to look things up first and speak second, so our exchanges
> tends to consist of eager suggestions by me and patient corrections by
> him.
>


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Wed Aug 18 15:18:00 2004
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 10:18:00 -0500
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408180837470.5194@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.18.AUG.2004.101800.0500.>

ROOD DAVID S wrote:

> 	Along these lines, my father used to insist that the correct
> spelling for the expression "under way", as in "let's get this project
> under way", was really "under weigh", as in weighing anchor.  Does anyone
> know anything more about that?  I've been laughed at more than once for
> perpetuating his idea.

Good example of a Du loan (which is, despite what I said earlier, from
the _eighteenth_ century): onderweg (also -wegen) 'on the way, under
way,' < onder 'under, in the course of,' etc. + weg (dat. pl. wegen)
'way'. "Under weigh" is apparently a technical folk-etymology (if I may
coin an oxymoron) arising from anchor-weighing. The "correct" spelling
is recorded from 1743 and the folk-etymologic from 1777.

Alan


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Aug 18 15:30:40 2004
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:30:40 -0600
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408180837470.5194@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.18.AUG.2004.093040.0600.>

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, ROOD DAVID S wrote:
> Along these lines, my father used to insist that the correct spelling
> for the expression "under way", as in "let's get this project under
> way", was really "under weigh", as in weighing anchor.  Does anyone know
> anything more about that?  I've been laughed at more than once for
> perpetuating his idea.

Alan?"  It doesn't seem implausible, but I don't know myself.  I suppose
it depends on whether "weighing anchor" refers to the effort of lifting
it, or uses an odd spelling to refer to getting the anchor in position to
"get under way."  "Way" in the sense of direction of travel, path of
movement, or simply movement is pretty common in nautical contexts, e.g.,
I think the command to commence rowing, or maybe it's just row harder, is
"give way."  And I think expressions like "in the way" in the sense of
"available, present" (and now days, "positioned to impede progress") refer
to being in the best route through a shallow area like a harbor.  I think
that's also the source of "fairway."  This could easily get out of hand,
so I'll leave my examples there!


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Thu Aug 19 07:37:27 2004
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:37:27 +0200
Subject: prat(t)
Message-ID: <THU.19.AUG.2004.093727.0200.>

 > (David:) Along these lines, my father used to insist that the correct
spelling for the expression "under way", as in "let's get this project
under way", was really "under weigh", as in weighing anchor.  Does
anyone know anything more about that?  I've been laughed at more than
once for perpetuating his idea.<<

This is what Kluge (lc.) tells us:

"unterwegs Adv. ?lter unterwegen (< *11.Jh., Form < 18. Jh.) Mhd.
unterwegen, mndd. underwege(n), mndl. onderwege(n). Eigentlich 'zwischen
den Wegen' (=between the ways), 'in/auf den Wegen' (=in/on the ways),
nachtr?glich mit adverbialem Genitiv."


 >(John:) "Way" in the sense of direction of travel, path of movement,
or simply movement is pretty common in nautical contexts, e.g.,I think
the command to commence rowing, or maybe it's just row harder, is "give
way."<<

In Romanian, there's a similar expression too: 'D?-i drumu!' (lit.:
'give it way') meaning about: Go on!/C'mon!/Hurry up etc. (German: Mach
zu!/Auf geht's!/Los! etc.)



Alfred


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Fri Aug 20 13:18:56 2004
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:18:56 +0100
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <41237328.6000503@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.AUG.2004.141856.0100.>

On 18/8/04 4:18 pm, "Alan H. Hartley" <ahartley at d.umn.edu> wrote:

> ROOD DAVID S wrote:
>
>> Along these lines, my father used to insist that the correct
>> spelling for the expression "under way", as in "let's get this project
>> under way", was really "under weigh", as in weighing anchor.  Does anyone
>> know anything more about that?  I've been laughed at more than once for
>> perpetuating his idea.
>
> Good example of a Du loan (which is, despite what I said earlier, from
> the _eighteenth_ century): onderweg (also -wegen) 'on the way, under
> way,' < onder 'under, in the course of,' etc. + weg (dat. pl. wegen)
> 'way'. "Under weigh" is apparently a technical folk-etymology (if I may
> coin an oxymoron) arising from anchor-weighing. The "correct" spelling
> is recorded from 1743 and the folk-etymologic from 1777.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
On the same tack and without sailing too close to the wind, does any one
know why in the old days the anchors were 'won' after they had been
'weighed'.  Was it suppletion or an old form?

Bruce


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Fri Aug 20 18:20:28 2004
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:20:28 +0200
Subject: prat(t)
Message-ID: <FRI.20.AUG.2004.202028.0200.>

> (Bruce:) On the same tack and without sailing too close to the wind, does any one
know why in the old days the anchors were 'won' after they had been
'weighed'.  Was it suppletion or an old form?<<

This reminds me of the special use of 'gewinnen' (to win) in my wife's
Transylvanian Saxon dialect (going back to the Middle Ages and in some
way cognate to Yiddish): e.g. (in German translation) "Man hat ihm den
Blinddarm gewonnen" (lit.: they have _won_ his appendix -> he had his
appendix taken out).
Etymologically, 'gewinnen' goes back to ahd. 'giwinnan' (the prefix has
only in Western Germanic the meaning of 'to acquire'). The root is g.
*wenn-a- 'sich m?hen' (to struggle/strive for), gt. 'winnan', anord.
'vinna', ae. 'winnan' etc. German 'gewinnen' hence has the meaning
'durch M?hen erreichen' (to acquire by struggling etc.).
Maybe, also the English term 'to win an anchor' has to do with this idea.

"... A few rain showers accompanied by some lively breeze helps to
enliven our morning as we ease the ship away from the dock and win the
anchor. All hands not otherwise occupied turn to in pushing the capstan
around..."




Alfred


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Fri Aug 20 22:03:37 2004
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:03:37 -0500
Subject: prat(t) (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <BD4BB8D0.1B5F%bi1@soas.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.AUG.2004.170337.0500.>

Bruce Ingham wrote:

> On the same tack and without sailing too close to the wind, does any one
> know why in the old days the anchors were 'won' after they had been
> 'weighed'.  Was it suppletion or an old form?

'Win' is not a suppletive to 'weigh' (as far as I know). The anchor
sense fits pretty well into the constellation of senses attested in the
OED for 'win' (verb, homonym 1):

1. intr. To work, labour (OE.); to strive, contend, fight. Obs.
2. trans. To conquer, subdue, overcome, defeat, vanquish, 'beat'. Obs.
3. To be victorious in (a contest of any kind, as a battle, game, race,
action at law, etc.)
4. absol. or intr. To overcome one's adversary, opponent, or competitor;
to be victorious, gain the victory (now chiefly in sports or games of
skill); fig. to prevail.
5. a. trans. To subdue and take possession of; to seize, capture, take
(a place). arch. (now associated with 6).
    b. To seize, capture, take as spoil; to catch (fish, a bird); to
capture, take captive (a person). Obs. exc. in euphemistic slang, to steal.
    [and other subsenses]
6. To get, obtain, acquire; esp. to get as something profitable or
desired; to gain, procure.  a. with concrete (material) obj. Obs. or
arch. exc. in specific uses: see 7.
    [and other subsenses]
7. g. To get or extract (coal, stone, or other mineral) from the mine,
pit, or quarry; also, to sink a shaft or make an excavation so as to
reach (a seam of coal or vein of ore) and prepare it for working, as by
drainage, etc.
    [and other subsenses]
8. To regain, recover (something lost); hence, to make up for (loss,
waste); to rescue, deliver; in religious use, to redeem: often with
again. Obs.
[and other senses]

With respect to the winning of fish in sense 5.b., note (coincidentally)
the naut. verb 'fish,' to draw the flukes of an anchor up to the ship's
gunwale after it's been catted (i.e., suspended from the cathead, the
short beam protruding from either bow for the purpose).

OED doesn't have the sense relating to anchors (or in fact, any sense
labeled 'naut.') The naut. coverage of the OED needs improvement and is
getting it.

Alan

P.S. Goodness: this is really not Siouan!


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Aug 20 23:05:01 2004
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:05:01 -0600
Subject: Winsome Anchors (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <41267539.7050104@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.AUG.2004.170501.0600.>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> 'Win' is not a suppletive to 'weigh' (as far as I know). The anchor
> sense fits pretty well into the constellation of senses attested in the
> OED for 'win' (verb, homonym 1):

I may be confused.  Doesn't winning the anchor mean using the capstan to
draw the ship to a position above the anchor?  As opposed to using it to
haul the anchor up to the cathead, which is the next step?


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Sat Aug 21 14:27:36 2004
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 09:27:36 -0500
Subject: Winsome Anchors (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408201700240.1475@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.21.AUG.2004.092736.0500.>

Koontz John E wrote:

> I may be confused.  Doesn't winning the anchor mean using the capstan to
> draw the ship to a position above the anchor?  As opposed to using it to
> haul the anchor up to the cathead, which is the next step?

In the few (modern yachting) examples I've found, to win the anchor
apparently means to succeed in breaking it out of the bottom and
weighing it. (As far as I can tell, it wasn't in general use historically.)

On a large sailing vessel, after the anchor was weighed and was hanging
under the bow ("under foot"), the cat-tackle was hooked to the
anchor-ring and used to hoist the top of the anchor to the cathead where
it was secured with the cat-stopper. That completed, the fish-tackle was
used to fish the anchor, i.e., draw the anchor-shank (and flukes) up to
the gunwale. That (bottom) end of the anchor was then secured to the
ship's side with the shank-painter. The anchor thus ended up horizontal
along the ship's side,, extending aft from the cathead.

Alan


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Sun Aug 22 10:03:06 2004
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:03:06 +0200
Subject: Praat (technical help)
Message-ID: <SUN.22.AUG.2004.120306.0200.>

I'm using Praat for the first time and am having some technical problems
you maybe can provide me some help on:
Is there a canny way to filter out back ground or any other disturbing
noise?
(I do have the PDF manual but didn't find smth on this or on recording
on the quick.)

Alfred


From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu  Sun Aug 22 16:56:37 2004
From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:56:37 -0700
Subject: Praat (technical help)
In-Reply-To: <41286F5A.20401@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <SUN.22.AUG.2004.095637.0700.>

That is where Sound Forge is useful. It has a Noise Reduction features that
you once needed to buy separately, although I think it may be built into
the latest version. It works best at eliminating a steady noise, like a hum.

Wally

--On Sunday, August 22, 2004 12:03 PM +0200 "\"Alfred W. T?ting\""
<ti at fa-kuan.muc.de> wrote:

> I'm using Praat for the first time and am having some technical problems
> you maybe can provide me some help on:
> Is there a canny way to filter out back ground or any other disturbing
> noise?
> (I do have the PDF manual but didn't find smth on this or on recording on
> the quick.)
>
> Alfred


From mary.marino at usask.ca  Mon Aug 23 06:44:50 2004
From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Mary Marino)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 00:44:50 -0600
Subject: Hidatsa Elder
In-Reply-To: <BD47CE55.11AE%bi1@soas.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <MON.23.AUG.2004.004450.0600.>

Is it right, in Lakhota, to say "otexike"  to a bereaved person or
family?  At what time may this  be said (e.g., at the funeral, or when the
news of the death is first heard?)  Does there exist a "Dakotan"  list or
article or book of  good verbal manners?  I have a small collection of
notes from principal consultants on these matters, and would welcome more
instruction on the subject.

Mary

At 08:01 AM 8/17/2004, you wrote:
>On 14/8/04 8:03 am, "Alfred W. T?ting" <ti at fa-kuan.muc.de> wrote:
>
> >> Clement "Finigan" NagaraHash Baker.
> >
> > Requiscat in pacem, senior Baker.<<
> >
> > Shouldn't it be "Requiescat in pace" ?
> >
> > "Sit ei (tibi) terra levis!" etc.
> > Do you know of phrases in Siouan languages comparable to these (be it
> > from a traditional or Christian background)?
> >
> > Alfred
> >
> >
> >
> >
>I suppose in pacem would mean 'into peace', but is not the normal phrase.
>Am I right that in Lakota people just say otexike meaning 'it is hard' ?
>Bruce *


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Aug 26 16:39:06 2004
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:39:06 -0500
Subject: Fw: Job announcement
Message-ID: <THU.26.AUG.2004.113906.0500.>

> The Department of Anthropology at Southern Illinois University Carbondale
> invites applications for a tenure-track position in linguistic anthropology,
> Assistant or Associate Professor rank, beginning August 16, 2005. Applicants
> currently holding the rank of Associate Professor and Assistant Professors
with
> six years or more university-level teaching and substantial postdoctoral
record
> of publications and grants will be placed into the Associate pool. Applicants
> not currently Associate Professors and with five or less years
university-level
> teaching and strong entry-level record of grants and publication will be
placed
> into the Assistant pool. This position forms part of the SIUC Faculty
Strategic
> Hiring Initiative intended to enhance our program and its national standing.
> Junior applicants must have completed all requirements for the Ph.D. degree in
> Anthropology or a closely related discipline by August 15, 2005. Established
> record of excellence in teaching and research expected. Areal focus open, but
> the department has a preference for a specialist in the indigenous languages
and
> cultures of the Americas. Topical specializations open, but should complement
> existing faculty strengths in a four-field oriented department. The Department
> hopes to hire a scholar who will contribute to building the graduate program
in
> linguistic anthropology. Teaching to include introduction to linguistic
> anthropology; advanced undergraduate and graduate courses in the candidate's
> geographical and topical areas of interest. Closing date for applications is
> November 29, 2004 or until position filled. Send vitae, letter detailing
> professional interests and teaching experience, and names/addresses/e-mail
> addresses/phone/fax #s of four references to: Search Committee Chair,
Linguistic
> Anthropology Position, Department of Anthropology, SIUC, Carbondale, IL
> 62901-4502. Southern Illinois University Carbondale is an affirmative
> action/equal opportunity employer that strives to enhance its ability to
develop
> a diverse faculty and increase its potential to serve a diverse student
> population. All applications are welcomed and encouraged and will receive
> consideration.
>
>
>


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Fri Aug 27 15:54:03 2004
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:54:03 +0100
Subject: Winsome Anchors (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408201700240.1475@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.AUG.2004.165403.0100.>

On 21/8/04 12:05 am, "Koontz John E" <John.Koontz at colorado.edu> wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
>> 'Win' is not a suppletive to 'weigh' (as far as I know). The anchor
>> sense fits pretty well into the constellation of senses attested in the
>> OED for 'win' (verb, homonym 1):
>
> I may be confused.  Doesn't winning the anchor mean using the capstan to
> draw the ship to a position above the anchor?  As opposed to using it to
> haul the anchor up to the cathead, which is the next step?
>
>
>
You may be right.  I have just seen the phrase "the anchor is (or was) won"
and presumed it had something to do with 'weighing' it.  I have never seen
"win the anchor" only "weigh anchor".
Bruce


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Fri Aug 27 17:17:34 2004
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 18:17:34 +0100
Subject: Winsome Anchors (but not Siouan)
In-Reply-To: <41275BD8.7000206@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.AUG.2004.181734.0100.>

On 21/8/04 3:27 pm, "Alan H. Hartley" <ahartley at d.umn.edu> wrote:

>
> In the few (modern yachting) examples I've found, to win the anchor
> apparently means to succeed in breaking it out of the bottom and
> weighing it. (As far as I can tell, it wasn't in general use historically.)
>
> On a large sailing vessel, after the anchor was weighed and was hanging
> under the bow ("under foot"), the cat-tackle was hooked to the
> anchor-ring and used to hoist the top of the anchor to the cathead where
> it was secured with the cat-stopper. That completed, the fish-tackle was
> used to fish the anchor, i.e., draw the anchor-shank (and flukes) up to
> the gunwale. That (bottom) end of the anchor was then secured to the
> ship's side with the shank-painter. The anchor thus ended up horizontal
> along the ship's side,, extending aft from the cathead.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
What more can one say?
Bruce


From goodtracks at GBRonline.com  Mon Aug 30 02:50:14 2004
From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 21:50:14 -0500
Subject: HIDATSA
Message-ID: <SUN.29.AUG.2004.215014.0500.>

Actually its not even close.  It is from a "sound verb", for lack of a
better term.  It referrs to the "Whinnying of a horse in a distance".
Perhaps it is from:  naa'ga =  the young of anything, and    ho- =  as in
the IOM "hotun" =  sound of an animal or bird.   The "-sh" is often suffixed
to names of persons.  My Hidatsa is quite limited, so John B may be able to
say more.

Interestingly, I learned during the interrim of the final services, that the
reknown L&C "Bird Woman", Sakakawea [Chagaa'ga + Mia via A.W.Jones' lexicon]
is/ was indeed Hidatsa language as is/ was the woman.  This is the claim by
a number of Hidatsa informants in the 1920s/ 1930s, and further attested to
by Bull Eye [Gidabi Isda], her grandson and only living decendent in 1930s.
Her confusion as a Lehmi Shoshone, as per the L&C journal came about as a
result of her marriage to T.Charboneau and his trading espeditions to the
mountain areas, where Saka'gaMia (as per the pronunciation of the 3Tribes
Museum staffer and another speaker--a grandson of Walter YoungBear.  Wolf
Chief in a statement in the 1920s indicated that the Hidatsa would not have
ventured that far because of respect to their enemies.  He suggested that
perhaps the Crow went to Shoshone land and captured someone, but the L&C
accepted history was incorrect.  And I bet noone is willing to bet on the
present day liklihood of the US Historians rewritting their version of
history and the events even though the Hidatsa informants and other early
century documentation tends to collaborate the Native version of the
accounts.
jgt

----- Original Message -----
From: "Koontz John E" <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: HIDATSA ELDER


> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Jimm GoodTracks wrote:
>
> Requiscat in pacem, senior Baker.
>
> I notice that NagaraHash looks a bit like the Ioway-Otoe variant of the
> "English(man)" term.
>


From lcumberl at indiana.edu  Tue Aug 31 13:39:38 2004
From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 08:39:38 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Re: "vertitive"
Message-ID: <TUE.31.AUG.2004.083938.0500.>


I wrote to Terry Kaufman to ask where he first used the term "vertitive" so I
could provide a citation and got this (surprising) reply. I'm forwarding it to
the list with his permission.

Linda

----- Forwarded message from TzajinKajaw at aol.com -----
    Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:15:25 EDT
    From: TzajinKajaw at aol.com
Reply-To: TzajinKajaw at aol.com
 Subject: Re: "vertitive"
      To: lcumberl at indiana.edu

I coined the term "verititve" and used it for a few years beginning in 1960;
around 1970 I reconsidered the derivation and changed it to versive.  But it
doesn't mean "going back, returning": it means "to become noun/adjective", and
is I believe pretty near a universal category/function; this term was devised
by me before some grammarians started misapplying the term "inchoative", which
really means "to get started doing something"

The category you are referreing to, I think, is one that I call "voltative",
and refers to coming back after going somewhere: this category is common in
Zapotec.

Best wishes,
Terry Kaufman

----- End forwarded message -----


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From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Tue Aug 31 14:12:51 2004
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:12:51 -0500
Subject: HIDATSA
In-Reply-To: <002301c48e3c$17322240$9c650945@JIMM>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.AUG.2004.091251.0500.>

Jimm GoodTracks wrote:

>Interestingly, I learned during the interrim of the final services, that the
>reknown L&C "Bird Woman", Sakakawea [Chagaa'ga + Mia via A.W.Jones' lexicon]
>is/ was indeed Hidatsa language as is/ was the woman.  This is the claim by
>a number of Hidatsa informants in the 1920s/ 1930s, and further attested to
>by Bull Eye [Gidabi Isda], her grandson and only living decendent in 1930s.
>Her confusion as a Lehmi Shoshone, as per the L&C journal came about as a
>result of her marriage to T.Charboneau and his trading espeditions to the
>mountain areas, where Saka'gaMia (as per the pronunciation of the 3Tribes
>Museum staffer and another speaker--a grandson of Walter YoungBear.  Wolf
>Chief in a statement in the 1920s indicated that the Hidatsa would not have
>ventured that far because of respect to their enemies.  He suggested that
>perhaps the Crow went to Shoshone land and captured someone, but the L&C
>accepted history was incorrect.  And I bet noone is willing to bet on the
>present day liklihood of the US Historians rewritting their version of
>history and the events even though the Hidatsa informants and other early
>century documentation tends to collaborate the Native version of the
>accounts.
>
>
There are several references in the L & C journals to Sacagawea's
Shoshone origins (including her recognition of landmarks in the
Shoshones' country and her reunion with her brother) and to her capture
by Hidatsas. L & C had no apparent reason to misrepresent her ethnic
origin, and it seems to me very unlikely that they did.

Here's the Sacagawea entry from my Lewis and Clark Lexicon that's to be
published this Fall. (I hope the HTML comes through OK.)

Sacagawea  {s at -cah-gah-wee-@} A teenaged Shoshone Indian (sister of
Cameahwait) who had been captured by the Hidatsa in a raid and was
living with her husband Toussaint Charbonneau when the expedition
arrived. Carrying her infant son Pomp, she accompanied Lewis and Clark
to the Pacific and back and was a valuable interpreter with the Snakes,
a guide (in the vicinity of her home), and a gatherer of wild plants.

Sacagawea's fate after the expedition is uncertain, but Clark notes her
as deceased by the late 1820s, and John Luttig, a fur-trader, says in
his journal entry for December 20, 1812, "this Evening the Wife of
Charbonneau a Snake Squaw, died of a putrid fever she was a good and the
best Women in the fort, aged abt 25 years she left a fine infant girl".
The death by what was perhaps typhus or typhoid fever of this unnamed
wife of Chabonneau occurred at Fort Manuel on the Missouri, near the
border between North and South Dakota.

S?h-c?h-g?h, we ?, our Indian woman is very sick this evening; Capt. C.
blead her. [10 Jun 05  ML  4.276]

Sah-cah-gar-we-ah...was one of the female prisoners taken...tho' I
cannot discover that she shews any immotion of sorrow in recollecting
this event, or of joy in being again restored to her native country [28
Jul 05  ML  5.009]

The wife of Shabono our interpetr we find reconsiles all the Indians, as
to our friendly intentions[.] a woman with a party of men is a token of
peace [13 Oct 05  WC  5.268]

In the expedition journals, Sacagawea is often called simply the Indian
woman, the squaw, or Charbonneau's wife, and the captains apparently
nicknamed her Janey. See potato.

The indian woman...has been of great Service to me as a pilot through
this Country [13 Jul 06  WC  8.180]

The form of her name in the following quotation (referring to the
present-day Sacagawea River), is an example of  the use of m for w in
careful speech in the Hidatsa language. (This variation also occurs in
Ahwahaway and in Hidatsa a-wah-tee 'river, Missouri River' which Lewis
[4.246] writes Amahte.) This characteristic alternation, along with
Lewis's translation and his division of the name into two words, as well
as the close similarity of the name to the Hidatsa words for 'bird'
(tsah-kah-kah) and 'woman' (wee-ah / mee-ah), support the traditional
interpretation of Sacagawea's name as Bird Woman in Hidatsa, the
language of her captor-adopters, and its pronunciation with a hard g
rather than the j sound that later became popular.

this stream we called S?h-c?-gar me-?h or bird woman's River, after our
interpreter the Snake woman. [20 May 05  ML  4.171]

Ordway writes her name as though he knew that wea meant simply 'woman'
and so omitted it.

Sahcahgah our Indian woman verry Sick & was bled. [10 Jun 05  JO  9.165]
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From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu  Tue Aug 31 16:09:18 2004
From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:09:18 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Re: "vertitive"
In-Reply-To: <1093959578.41347f9a5a330@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.AUG.2004.090918.0700.>

I remember Terry's use of "vertitive" from the time we were both in the
Berkeley linguistics department in the 1960s, but didn't know about his
switch to "versive". For the sake of historical accuracy, I feel I should
mention that "some grammarians" had already been using "inchoative" for the
"become" meaning for some time before that. It was most familiar to me from
Lounsbury's Oneida Verb Morphology, which was published in 1953 but was a
version of the dissertation he wrote in the late 1940s. (If anybody cares
to look, he introduced the "inchoative" derivational suffix on p. 78.) I
always felt uncomfortable with the term, as did Terry, and I wish something
else had caught on, but Iroquoianists and others are still calling it the
"inchoative". As Terry says, it's something that shows up in pretty nearly
all languages. I wouldn't mind if we all switched to "versive", but I guess
that won't happen.

Wally

--On Tuesday, August 31, 2004 8:39 AM -0500 lcumberl at indiana.edu wrote:

>
> I wrote to Terry Kaufman to ask where he first used the term "vertitive"
> so I could provide a citation and got this (surprising) reply. I'm
> forwarding it to the list with his permission.
>
> Linda
>
> ----- Forwarded message from TzajinKajaw at aol.com -----
>     Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:15:25 EDT
>     From: TzajinKajaw at aol.com
> Reply-To: TzajinKajaw at aol.com
>  Subject: Re: "vertitive"
>       To: lcumberl at indiana.edu
>
> I coined the term "verititve" and used it for a few years beginning in
> 1960;  around 1970 I reconsidered the derivation and changed it to
> versive.  But it  doesn't mean "going back, returning": it means "to
> become noun/adjective", and  is I believe pretty near a universal
> category/function; this term was devised  by me before some grammarians
> started misapplying the term "inchoative", which  really means "to get
> started doing something"
>
> The category you are referreing to, I think, is one that I call
> "voltative",  and refers to coming back after going somewhere: this
> category is common in  Zapotec.
>
> Best wishes,
> Terry Kaufman
>
> ----- End forwarded message -----
>
>


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue Aug 31 17:51:06 2004
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:51:06 -0600
Subject: Chadic Term:  Ventive
Message-ID: <TUE.31.AUG.2004.115106.0600.>

The Chadicist term for the "and return" past forms is ventive.

John E. Koontz
http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue Aug 31 17:49:39 2004
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:49:39 -0600
Subject: Second Dative
Message-ID: <TUE.31.AUG.2004.114939.0600.>

For what it's worth, I believe the earlier use of 'second dative' is in
Dorsey's article 'Phonology of Five Siouan Languages' (title approximate).

I think the use of the expression ablaut for the final vowel variations
comes from the Colorado Lakhota Project and its participants.

John E. Koontz
http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz


From Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc  Tue Aug 31 17:59:41 2004
From: Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc (Louis Garcia)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 12:59:41 -0500
Subject: HIDATSA
In-Reply-To: <41348763.3050301@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.AUG.2004.125941.0500.>


  Members:
  When I taught at the ft. Berhold Community College (1990-96),
  I collected about 150 Hidasta place names.
  One is called Sagagawish aru saha or where Sakakawia is buried.
  It is located about where the Lewis and Clark campsite of the April 20,
1805 was on the north bank of the Missouri River.
  This is the place that Bulls Eye mentions in his account of his
grandmother.
  Later,
  LouieG
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From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Aug 31 19:23:35 2004
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:23:35 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Re: "vertitive"
Message-ID: <TUE.31.AUG.2004.142335.0500.>

Yes, "inchoative" is one of those terms I always had to look up again (usually
twice) whenever I encountered it in the literature.  Another such term is
"aorist".  "Irrealis" isn't much better, although it should be; it includes so
many different things in different languages.  I think "vertitive" is pretty
deeply ensconced in Siouan linguistics now and would be hard to replace.  :-)

Bob


From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Aug 31 19:40:44 2004
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:40:44 -0500
Subject: Second Dative
Message-ID: <TUE.31.AUG.2004.144044.0500.>

Is this in answer to an earlier query on the list?  If so, I'm not getting all
the postings for some reason.  I've been pretty careful about looking for posts
among the tagged SPAM items the KU server sends me.

Bob

> For what it's worth, I believe the earlier use of 'second dative' is in
> Dorsey's article 'Phonology of Five Siouan Languages' (title approximate).
>
> I think the use of the expression ablaut for the final vowel variations
> comes from the Colorado Lakhota Project and its participants.
>
> John E. Koontz
> http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz