From Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc Fri Jul 2 15:50:52 2004 From: Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc (Louis Garcia) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:50:52 -0500 Subject: Kahomni In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Members: I am planning on doing an essay or paper on the Kahomni Dance. I have asked local speakers what the 'ka' part means. They all say it means 'the action' (Ka= action of; homni= circling). Do you concur? Toksta ake, Louie Garcia From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Sat Jul 3 02:54:40 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:54:40 -0600 Subject: Kahomni In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Louis, The basic meaning of the ka- prefix is a very general 'by force'. An example with that meaning would be kablecha 'break by hitting'. Both it and yu- 'by hand' have taken on many other meanings, including a very general 'cause, make' meaning, however, and it's hard to generalize. I think the ka- in kahomni is one of these more general uses 'made to circle, caused to circle'. That would accord with the speakers' instincts that it indicates the source of (or maybe the stimulus for) the action. I'm not familiar with "kahomni", however -- does that explanation make sense? David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, Louis Garcia wrote: > > > Members: > I am planning on doing an essay or paper on the Kahomni Dance. > I have asked local speakers what the 'ka' part means. > They all say it means 'the action' (Ka= action of; homni= circling). > Do you concur? > Toksta ake, > Louie Garcia > From Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc Sat Jul 3 22:21:41 2004 From: Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc (Louis Garcia) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:21:41 -0500 Subject: Kahomni Reply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hau Dawid: Thank you for the explaination. My friends were right when they said ka = action. Ka = force. Kahomni is the northern version of the Rabbit Dance. The only difference is the dancers go forward only. They don't go forward two steps and back one as in the Rabbit Dance. They also have a caller - Ladies forward, kahomni (cirle),etc. Just like a square dance. Toksta ake, LouieG From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Jul 6 15:12:30 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:12:30 -0600 Subject: Kahomni In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, Louis Garcia wrote: > I am planning on doing an essay or paper on the Kahomni Dance. I have > asked local speakers what the 'ka' part means. They all say it means > 'the action' (Ka= action of; homni= circling). I concur with David. I can add: - In Omaha-Ponca there is an instrumental prefix ga- with much the same meaning as Dakotan ka-, 'action by force' or 'action by striking'. This ga- appears in a number of cases seems to mean instead, or maybe just more specifically, 'action by wind or water current'. I've noticed similar usages in other Dhegiha languages and in Dakotan, though this sense of the 'by striking' is not one that appears, in, say, Boas & Deloria, at least not as far as I can recall. I believe Randy Graczyk reports a similar form in a similar sense in Crow. But in Crow this form is distinct from the 'by striking' instrumental. It looks like 'by wind' was PS *ka, while 'by striking' was PS *(r)aka. The *r is deleted with the first and second persons and present in the third. The 'by striking' instrumental is simplified in various ways in various branches of the Siouan languages, and falls together with 'by wind' in the Mississippi Valley branch. - I think -homni forms are often associated with the the whirlwind. Dick Carter once mentioned to me an example of a name that meant 'Charging Whirlwind' and included, as I recall, three repetitions of (h)omni. Unfortunately I don't recall the name! Given these two observations, I would expect the form to have something to do with spinning or whirling. I haven't looked this up in Buechel, etc., however. From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Tue Jul 6 16:51:02 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 17:51:02 +0100 Subject: English-Lakota Dictionary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Siouanists, I hope you will forgive me advertising on the Siouan list, but I thought you might like to know that Routledge have reduced the price of my English-Lakota Dictionary from the previous impossible price to a new price of $29.95, which is more like what people pay for books in America. Best wishes to all. Very much enjoyed the conference in Wayne. Yours Bruce Ingham From rankin at ku.edu Tue Jul 6 21:44:32 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 16:44:32 -0500 Subject: English-Lakota Dictionary Message-ID: > ...Routledge have reduced the price of my > English-Lakota Dictionary from the previous impossible price to a new price > of $29.95, That's great -- actually I found the original price well worth paying. > which is more like what people pay for books in America. Would that it were so! Each of my introductory Linguistics students paid US $65+ for their paperback intro textbooks last Spring. Reference books are among the better deals on the market. Textbooks are off the scale! Bob From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Wed Jul 7 06:29:57 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:29:57 +0200 Subject: English-Lakota dictionary Message-ID: > from the previous impossible price to a new price of $29.95, which is more like what people pay for books in America.<< Too late for me: I bought it last week for about 100.- Euro :-) ... but I like it nevertheless. Alfred From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Jul 8 19:42:44 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:42:44 +0100 Subject: English-Lakota Dictionary In-Reply-To: <002101c463a2$6dc16860$28b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On 6/7/04 10:44 pm, "R. Rankin" wrote: >> ...Routledge have reduced the price of my >> English-Lakota Dictionary from the previous impossible price to a new price >> of $29.95, > > That's great -- actually I found the original price well worth paying. > >> which is more like what people pay for books in America. > > Would that it were so! Each of my introductory Linguistics students paid US > $65+ for their paperback intro textbooks last Spring. Reference books are > among > the better deals on the market. Textbooks are off the scale! > > Bob > > > Thanks for the complement Yours Bruce From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Jul 9 16:11:20 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:11:20 -0600 Subject: Native Nations, Native Voices (fwd) Message-ID: I don't know anything about Gordon Bronitsky or this project, but it might be of interest to the list. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:25:14 -0600 From: Gordon Bronitsky To: john.koontz at colorado.edu Subject: Native Nations, Native Voices I am working with the Indian Pueblo Cultural Center of Albuquerque New Mexico to create Native Nations, Native Voices--a festival to honor contemporary Native language writers. To honor Native language authors, Native language writers have been invited to participate in a week-long festival. Writers will read from their works in their own languages; National language translations will be made available to the audience at the option of each writer. A special effort has been made to include and honor high school and college authors in Native languages, for they are the future of languages. Selected writers represent as broad a range of languages and styles as possible. The festival is scheduled for July 2005. Over 500 Native Nations, each with its own language and culture. These are the Nations which were encountered by the first Europeans to enter North America. Yet now Native languages are under threat everywhere, due to Euro-American educational policies, disease, and the virtual omnipresence of English language television. Some languages are extinct--from Guale to Esalen, from Eyak to Timucuan. Others are only spoken by a handful of elderly individuals. Yet throughout Native America and beyond, a small but growing body of writers are giving new voice to Native languages, using their own languages to write about and confront the world they live in, the world of the Twenty First Century. Often unknown outside their own communities, such writers have much to say to all of us. Right now, participants include 1. Greenland--Jokum Nielsen (Kalaallisut [Greenlandic]) 2. Canada--Floyd Favel (Cree), Peter Irniq (Inuktitut) 3. United States--Jim Northrup (Anishnaabe [Chippewa/Ojibwe]), Eveline Battiest Steele (Choctaw), Nia Francisco and Nora Yazzie (Navajo), Dominik Tsosie (outstanding high school writer--Navajo), Virgil Reeder. (Kawaikagamedzene [Laguna Pueblo]), Frances Washburn (Lakota) 4. Hawai¹i--Kainani Kahaunaele, Larry Kimura (Hawai¹ian) 5. Saipan--Frances Sablan (Chamorro) 6. Guam--Peter Onedera (Chamorro) 7. Mexico--Jesus Salinas Pedraza (Nyahnyu [Otomi]), Diego Méndez Guzmán (Tzeltal Maya), Ruperta Bautista Vazquez (Tzotzil Maya), Jun Tiburcio (Totonac) 8. Peru--Martin Castillo (Quechua), Felix Julca (Quechua) 9. Brazil--Nanblá Grakan (Xokleng) Might this be of interest? Naturally I would be happy to provide more information or answer any questions you might have. Thank you. Yours, Gordon Bronitsky, PhD Bronitsky and Associates 3715 La Hacienda Dr NE Albuquerque, NM 87110 505-256-0260 e-mail g.bronitsky at att.net From mckay020 at umn.edu Fri Jul 9 18:35:54 2004 From: mckay020 at umn.edu (Cantemaza) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:35:54 -0500 Subject: English-Lakota Dictionary Message-ID: Mr. Ingham. Just out of curiosity, what were your sources for this dictionary? Did you use speakers We're collecting recources so I thought I'd ask. Piadamayaye do -Cantemaza de miye Neil McKay University of Minnesota Dakota Language Dept. Bruce Ingham wrote: > On 6/7/04 10:44 pm, "R. Rankin" wrote: > > >> ...Routledge have reduced the price of my > >> English-Lakota Dictionary from the previous impossible price to a new price > >> of $29.95, > > > > That's great -- actually I found the original price well worth paying. > > > >> which is more like what people pay for books in America. > > > > Would that it were so! Each of my introductory Linguistics students paid US > > $65+ for their paperback intro textbooks last Spring. Reference books are > > among > > the better deals on the market. Textbooks are off the scale! > > > > Bob > > > > > > > Thanks for the complement > Yours > Bruce From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Mon Jul 12 07:22:46 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:22:46 +0200 Subject: kahomni Message-ID: @David: I think the ka- in kahomni is one of these more general uses 'made to circle, caused to circle'. That would accord with the speakers' instincts that it indicates the source of (or maybe the stimulus for) the action. I'm not familiar with "kahomni", however -- does that explanation make sense? Buechel gives it explicitely in the sense of 'striking': kaho'mni - to make something turn around by striking, as a top; to turn around, as a wheel by striking; to spin, as a top This 'picture' is quite 'striking' ;-) (Remember the kids driving a hoop by striking it!) Alfred From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Mon Jul 12 18:34:28 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?Big5?B?IkFsZnJlZCBXLiBUdSJ0aW5nIg==?=) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:34:28 +0200 Subject: kahomni Message-ID: @David: I think the ka- in kahomni is one of these more general uses 'made to circle, caused to circle'. That would accord with the speakers' instincts that it indicates the source of (or maybe the stimulus for) the action. I'm not familiar with "kahomni", however -- does that explanation make sense? May I add that these 'more general uses' (in a causative sense) is not so uncommon also in other - very different - languages like German or Chinese (Putonghua): ein Rad _schlagen_ (of a peacock) ein Buch _aufschlagen_ (to open a book) ein Lager _aufschlagen_ (to camp/pitch one's camp) kai1 開 - intr. 'to open' e.g. kai1 hua2 開花 (to blossom/bloom etc.) but: _da3_ kai1 打開 - trans. to open (a book) Lit.: 'to hit open' cf. 'aufschlagen' Alfred From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Jul 13 02:25:46 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:25:46 -0600 Subject: kahomni Message-ID: Buechel gives kaho'mni(N) as 'to make something turn around by striking, as a top'. He also offers an intransitive gloss, 'to turn around, as a wheel by striking; to spin, as a top'. The intransitive gloss is inherited from Riggs, but the transitive definition is new. Riggs also offers a transitive definition based on action of wind or water, 'to turn, as water or wind does a mill-wheel'. Williams gives (under 'spin') a transitive definition pahomni(N), kahomni(N) 'to spin a top'. Williams also gives kahomni as the transitive of 'whirl'. The intransitive is given as homni. Homni(N)' is given in Riggs as 'round, going round', with crossreferences to oho'mni, and yuhomni. Buechel doesn't list homni separately, either in the main list or in the supplement. Williams gives 'whirlpool' as mniomni and 'whirlwind' as t[h]ateiyumni. Buechel gives wamniomni as 'whirwind, whirlpool' and yumnimni as 'hurricane'. Ingham lists both wamni'omni 'whirlpool, whirlwind' and thate'iyumni 'whirlwind'. Given the strong connections among the Riggs/Williams/Buechel dictionaries, it's interesting to see such variation, however minor, in their treatment of a particular form. Clearly there are some complications to the form of (h)(o)mni 'to turn in circles (?)'. Perhaps homni is a compoiund based on mni, or perhaps some contraction of V(h)V is involved. Examples of ka- 'by wind or water': kaghi' 'to stop one's progress, to be in one's way, as a river' kaxtaN' to soak up, to soak in, as does grease in wood' kaxwo'ka 'to be carried along by the wind; to float like clouds' kai'c^ogha 'to come off, slide away, as wood in water' kai'z^ena 'to confuse, mix up, as the wind does' kai's^tamnihaNpi hiyuya (?) 'to bring tears to one's eyes, as the wind does' kaz^a'z^a 'to wash away, as bridge by a flood' kaz^o' 'to have diarrhoea; to whistle as the wind does' kak?o'za, etc. 'to leave hard and bare, as the wind does the ground' kala' 'to scatter, as grain' ... John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Jul 13 06:53:07 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:53:07 +0200 Subject: kahomni Message-ID: @John: Clearly there are some complications to the form of (h)(o)mni 'to turn in circles (?)'. Perhaps homni is a compound based on mni, or perhaps some contraction of V(h)V is involved. Also, the part _ho-_ seems to refer to the idea of 'round/circle' (Buechel: ho- - It makes them refer to a circle of camps] with quite some examples) I wonder if the different words _ho_ (voice, fish) are just homophones or etymologically connected in some way. Same with the part _mni_ (above): Apart from its meaning 'water', it seems to refer to smth 'round/spinning' etc. too, cf. Buechel: mnic^a'tomni - windmill (!) mni'c^iyA - to assemble e.g a feast; to make a feast or call an assembly (-> camp circle?) Alfred From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Jul 13 16:48:56 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:48:56 -0600 Subject: kahomni In-Reply-To: <40F386D3.60205@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, "Alfred W. Tüting" wrote: > Also, the part _ho-_ seems to refer to the idea of 'round/circle' > (Buechel: ho- - It makes them refer to a circle of camps] with quite > some examples) That's true. I hadn't thought of this. This is at least a Mississippi Valley Siouan set, and was included in the CSD. For example, Omaha-Ponca has hu(u)'dhuga 'camp circle'. The second part -dhuga is apparently a locative of sorts < *=roka 'in the middle of', as far as I can recall at the moment. Note that *o > u in OP. The root *ho is found elsewhere in other MVS languages, as is the locative extension *=roka, though not generally in conjunction with each other. > I wonder if the different words _ho_ (voice, fish) are just homophones > or etymologically connected in some way. I think just homophones *ho (1) 'fish', *ho (2) 'voice', *ho (3) 'circle'. It seems to me that the usual analyses of hoo-c^aNk, etc., 'Winnebago' in terms of 'big voice' and 'big fish' make less sense than 'big-(camp) circle', which strikes me as an excellent village name - and village names are likely sources of ethnic names. However, since *ho (3) isn't attested in Winnebago, this alternative has only been considered, or even occurred to anyone, in the context of the CSD project. > Same with the part _mni_ (above): Apart from its meaning 'water', it > seems to refer to smth 'round/spinning' etc. too, cf. Buechel: > mnic^a'tomni - windmill (!) > mni'c^iyA - to assemble e.g a feast; to make a feast or call an assembly > (-> camp circle?) There's a PS or at least PMVS stem *priN having to do with roundness. It occurs in extended form as *pepriN. These come out mni, pemni in Dakotan, or bdhiN, bebdhiN in Omaha-Ponca. I don't recall the sense of the extended forms at the moment. I think this is just homophonous with *priN 'water'. Of course, outside of Dakotan the nominal *priN and the verbal *priN take different phonological courses, cf., OP niN vs. -bdhiN. From rankin at ku.edu Tue Jul 13 20:28:22 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:28:22 -0500 Subject: ho 'circle' Message-ID: > It seems to me that the usual analyses of hoo-c^aNk, etc., 'Winnebago' in > terms of 'big voice' and 'big fish' make less sense than 'big-(camp) > circle', which strikes me as an excellent village name - and village names > are likely sources of ethnic names. However, since *ho (3) isn't attested > in Winnebago, this alternative has only been considered, or even occurred > to anyone, in the context of the CSD project. Well, even the /-caNk/ < *htaNka 'big, great' of /ho:caNk/ is otherwise pretty much missing from WI. I think /ho/ 'circle' is a very reasonable explanation. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Jul 13 21:37:52 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:37:52 -0600 Subject: Cranberries (Re: ho 'circle') In-Reply-To: <009301c46917$f20b5610$04b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > Well, even the /-caNk/ < *htaNka 'big, great' of /ho:caNk/ is otherwise pretty > much missing from WI. I think /ho/ 'circle' is a very reasonable explanation. While we're reetymologizing the Hochanks, I seem to remember that you yourself discovered Winnebago hoochake 'cranberry' (details of form may not be correctly remembered). Of course, that lacks the nasal, and the presence of final -e suggests *ho(o) thah-ka for that form instead of *ho(o) htaN-ka. I hadn't worried too much about the "extra" -k in Hooc^aNk, because there are some cases of c^aN < *htaN - right? - even if xaN... forms seem to be the rule for 'big' in Winnebago-Chiwere. But I guess technically, the -k might be otherwise unprecedented in (modern) HochaNk. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Jul 14 18:22:47 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:22:47 -0500 Subject: ho 'circle' In-Reply-To: <009301c46917$f20b5610$04b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: I'm having a paper published on Jean Nicollet and the Ho-chunk and have included in that article the "big fish" etymology. Should I withdraw that etymology before the piece goes to press? Siouanist of the world, unite! Let me know. Thank you, Michael McCafferty On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > > It seems to me that the usual analyses of hoo-c^aNk, etc., 'Winnebago' in > > terms of 'big voice' and 'big fish' make less sense than 'big-(camp) > > circle', which strikes me as an excellent village name - and village names > > are likely sources of ethnic names. However, since *ho (3) isn't attested > > in Winnebago, this alternative has only been considered, or even occurred > > to anyone, in the context of the CSD project. > > Well, even the /-caNk/ < *htaNka 'big, great' of /ho:caNk/ is otherwise pretty > much missing from WI. I think /ho/ 'circle' is a very reasonable explanation. > > Bob > > > "...and cicadas sing a rare and different tune..." R. Hunter From rankin at ku.edu Wed Jul 14 20:35:43 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:35:43 -0500 Subject: ho 'circle' Message-ID: I don't think there's a consensus. I remember a talk given by one Hochunk elder (by proxy) at one of the Siouan conferences in which he seemed to think the name should be rendered something like "great voice". His ethnocentric view was that they were the "oldest" Siouan-speaking tribe and presumably occupied the original homeland in Wisconsin. Needless to say, similar views, mutatis mutandis, are held by a variety of other Siouan-speaking groups. The bottom line is that I think this particular person liked /ho-/ 'voice' as the meaning, but even if this view is shared generally in the tribe, it can't be taken as historically correct necessarily. There are at least four homophonous possibilities for *ho:, and we're dealing with several thousand years of history. See also my next posting. Bob > I'm having a paper published on Jean Nicollet and the Ho-chunk and have > included in that article the "big fish" etymology. Should I withdraw that > etymology before the piece goes to press? Siouanist of the world, unite! > Let me know. > > Thank you, > > Michael McCafferty From rankin at ku.edu Wed Jul 14 20:43:43 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:43:43 -0500 Subject: Cranberries (Re: ho 'circle') Message-ID: Just to muddy the waters a bit more, bear in mind that the Ocean Spray cranberry company has a big, big operation right up there around Wisconsin Rapids near Marshfield, WI. So that particular *ho: is just as tempting. . . . ----- Original Message ----- > While we're reetymologizing the Hochanks, I seem to remember that you > yourself discovered Winnebago hoochake 'cranberry' (details of form may > not be correctly remembered). Of course, that lacks the nasal, and the > presence of final -e suggests *ho(o) thah-ka for that form instead of > *ho(o) htaN-ka. > I hadn't worried too much about the "extra" -k in Hooc^aNk, because there > are some cases of c^aN < *htaN - right? - even if xaN... forms seem to be > the rule for 'big' in Winnebago-Chiwere. But I guess technically, the -k > might be otherwise unprecedented in (modern) HochaNk. It's not so much an "extra K" that bothers me as much as the lack of the expected vowel on the end. All WI *ht become c^ (the only real "t", actually [d], in WI is from *R). The same is true for plain *t in final position. So we're no worse off here than we are with the etymology of baxoje 'Ioway', but that's not saying a lot. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Jul 14 23:26:39 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:26:39 -0600 Subject: Cranberries (Re: ho 'circle') In-Reply-To: <010f01c469e3$433de900$04b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jul 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > Just to muddy the waters a bit more, bear in mind that the Ocean Spray cranberry > company has a big, big operation right up there around Wisconsin Rapids near > Marshfield, WI. So that particular *ho: is just as tempting. . . . And the Winnebagos used to work as cranberry harvesters when that was done by hand. Still, I expect this more along the lines of a coincidence. > > I hadn't worried too much about the "extra" -k in Hooc^aNk, because there > > are some cases of c^aN < *htaN - right? - even if xaN... forms seem to be > > the rule for 'big' in Winnebago-Chiwere. But I guess technically, the -k > > might be otherwise unprecedented in (modern) HochaNk. > > It's not so much an "extra K" that bothers me as much as the lack of the > expected vowel on the end. All WI *ht become c^ (the only real "t", actually > [d], in WI is from *R). The same is true for plain *t in final position. So > we're no worse off here than we are with the etymology of baxoje 'Ioway', but > that's not saying a lot. The lack of the expected vowel has a phonologically regular solution. It appears to me that *a > *e / [velar] ___ # in Winnebago-Chiwere, and all *e > 0 (that's zero) / [simple C] __ # in Winnebago. Final e, original or from *a, is saved in Winnebago only in monosyllables and after clusters. Chiwere (Ioway-Otoe) is a God-send because it keeps all the final *e from final *a after velar, showing the vowel shift occurred. So, if Winnebago has a final -e, then you are dealing with either a (C)Ce monosyllable or -CCe. So -ke in ho(o)c^ake has to be from -Cke, presumably -hke here. Or, putting it another way -ke in Winnebago corresponds to Dakotan -kha and Dhegiha -kka and IO -khe. It's a bit obscure without the Dakotan and Dhegiha and without knowing about postvelaric final a becoming e, because IO sources tend to conflate -ke and -khe and Winnebago has k for *hk/__V and *k/_#. And this bit of business also complicates understanding a ~ e in final position, because it makes cases where there is genuine alternation in a vs. e between branches harder to see. Plenty of -e in IO and -C# in Winnebago are cases of alternating a ~ e materializing as e in WC (and being deleted finally in Winnebago). But not all. Some are plain invariant *a. To apply the rules above in the context, PMV *htaNka 'big' > PWC *thaNke > Wi c^aNk, but (PMVS *htahka ??? > PWC *thakhe ???) > Wi c^ake ??? (in ho(o)c^ake 'cranberry'). By contrast a form like *s^uNk(e/a) 'dog' comes out s^uNuNk because either *s^uNke or *s^uNka would become *s^uNke and then s^uNuNk. I suspect, however, based on the patterns in IO and Dhegiha that most of these words had -e as the more or less invariant final grade in PWC (and PDh), since there is no *a > *e after prefinal velars in Dhegiha (OP *s^aNge), and since IO has *e in forms like *suNe. Moreover, in non-velaric words like *siNt- 'tail' and *yaNp- 'beaver' you always have -e (or Wi zero from *e#), too. From rankin at ku.edu Thu Jul 15 00:01:01 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:01:01 -0500 Subject: Cranberries (Re: ho 'circle') Message-ID: > The lack of the expected vowel has a phonologically regular solution. It > appears to me that *a > *e / [velar] ___ # in Winnebago-Chiwere, and all > *e > 0 (that's zero) / [simple C] __ # in Winnebago. Final e, original or > from *a, is saved in Winnebago only in monosyllables and after clusters. > Chiwere (Ioway-Otoe) is a God-send because it keeps all the final *e > from final *a after velar, showing the vowel shift occurred. I knew that. I just couldn't remember it. :-) BTW, the reason for the modifier with the ho- 'cranberry', I think, is that the *ho by itself was probably the 'black hawthorn' ("black haws") word. It gets an 'absolutive' *wa- or *wi- in several dialects and the resultant *w-h cluster apparently comes out as a /p/. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Jul 15 22:50:44 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:50:44 -0600 Subject: Cranberries (Re: ho 'circle') In-Reply-To: <013401c469fe$d2cd5c20$04b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jul 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > BTW, the reason for the modifier with the ho- 'cranberry', I think, is > that the *ho by itself was probably the 'black hawthorn' ("black haws") > word. It gets an 'absolutive' *wa- or *wi- in several dialects and the > resultant *w-h cluster apparently comes out as a /p/. That makes sense, though I kind of wonder what the modifier might be. Sort of like "cranberry" in English, though there etymologists actually know what a cran is. (For those who haven't had Introduction to Linguistics or a similar course where this initiation secret was revealed, 'cran' = 'bog', and 'cran' as such is attested in some English or neighboring Germanic dialects, e.g. Scottish.) Is the /p/ *ph, *hp, or *p? From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Jul 15 23:44:29 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:44:29 -0500 Subject: Cranberries (Re: ho 'circle') In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > That makes sense, though I kind of wonder what the modifier might be. > Sort of like "cranberry" in English, though there etymologists actually > know what a cran is. (For those who haven't had Introduction to > Linguistics or a similar course where this initiation secret was revealed, > 'cran' = 'bog', and 'cran' as such is attested in some English or > neighboring Germanic dialects, e.g. Scottish.) Just checked American Heritage, Random House, and OED, and they all agree on a (probably Low) German word like kraanbere 'cranberry,' lit. 'crane-berry.' Cf. also Sw. tranbär, Da. tranebaer 'cranberry' < trana, trane, 'crane.' I'm open to persuasion though! Alan From rankin at ku.edu Fri Jul 16 16:03:30 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:03:30 -0500 Subject: Cranberries Message-ID: I was once told, can't remember by whom, that it was a Mr. Crane who domesticated them. Actually, maybe all these explanations are right. It depends on what k/tran meant in common Germanic. And I'm the wrong person to ask about that. The question for Siouanists, then, is what does *htak- mean? Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan H. Hartley" To: Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 6:44 PM Subject: Re: Cranberries (Re: ho 'circle') > Koontz John E wrote: > > > That makes sense, though I kind of wonder what the modifier might be. > > Sort of like "cranberry" in English, though there etymologists actually > > know what a cran is. (For those who haven't had Introduction to > > Linguistics or a similar course where this initiation secret was revealed, > > 'cran' = 'bog', and 'cran' as such is attested in some English or > > neighboring Germanic dialects, e.g. Scottish.) > > Just checked American Heritage, Random House, and OED, and they all > agree on a (probably Low) German word like kraanbere 'cranberry,' lit. > 'crane-berry.' Cf. also Sw. tranbär, Da. tranebaer 'cranberry' < trana, > trane, 'crane.' I'm open to persuasion though! > > Alan > > From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri Jul 16 16:26:48 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:26:48 -0500 Subject: Cranberries In-Reply-To: <002801c46b4e$74194210$21b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: > what k/tran meant in common Germanic. 'crane' Alan From rankin at ku.edu Fri Jul 16 19:55:41 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:55:41 -0500 Subject: Cranberries Message-ID: Hmmm, not much real help there, is there. Is there really a 'bog' meaning, or was there a Mr. Crane or neither, I wonder. And I also wonder if the k/t equation is a real sound correspondence set between North Germanic and the rest of the family. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan H. Hartley" To: Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 11:26 AM Subject: Re: Cranberries > > what k/tran meant in common Germanic. > > 'crane' > > Alan > > From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri Jul 16 20:07:53 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:07:53 -0500 Subject: Cranberries In-Reply-To: <002801c46b6e$e14b2770$1ab5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: > Hmmm, not much real help there, is there. Is there really a 'bog' meaning, or > was there a Mr. Crane or neither, I wonder. And I also wonder if the k/t > equation is a real sound correspondence set between North Germanic and the rest > of the family. Not sure about the latter--I can't think of any other examples--but s.v. CRANE, OED says "OE. cran corresponds to MG. kran, MLG. krân, krôn. Cf. MDu. crne, Du. kraan: < OLG. krano, kranu, OHG. with guttural suffix, chranuh, chranih, MHG. kranech, kranich, G. kranich. The corresp. Norse forms have initial tr- for kr-, ON. trani, Sw. trana, Da. trane." A. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sat Jul 17 09:08:42 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:08:42 +0200 Subject: cranberries - was: kahomni Message-ID: Here's my two cents to this issue (mainly in German): Cranberry - German: Kranbeere, also Kränbeere, per. reg. 'Preisselbeere (< 14. Jh.) 'Kranichsbeere' (lit.: crane berry), initially for 'Moosbeere'. 'Kranich' m. (crane) (< 8. Jh.) Mhd. kranech(e), kranch(e), ahd. kranuh, kranih, from wg. *kranuka- m. 'Kranich', also in ae. cornoc. Without the suffix s. Kran, mhd- Kran(e), ahd. krano, as. krano, ae. cran (*crana-lon), mhd. kruon, mndd. kran, kron. Outside of the germanic languages, there's no common base although the words are comparable pretty well: gr. géranos, f./(m.), kymr. garan, (gall. -garanos), lit. garanys (Reiher, Storch/heron, stork), arm. krunk (with k-extension), lat. grus (with u-extension), lit. gérve f., russ-kslav. zeravi. Maybe, it's onomatopoeic, though this assumption only seems to match with the Latin, as the cry of a crane could be given as [gruu]. Maybe these are Vriddhi-formings (cf. Gauch). In Old Norse, the crane is 'trani' maybe a variant of the same word. (Kluge, Etymologisches Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache, de Gruyter 1995) Alfred From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Jul 19 06:48:46 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 00:48:46 -0600 Subject: Cranberries (Re: ho 'circle') In-Reply-To: <40F716DD.5050704@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jul 2004, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > Just checked American Heritage, Random House, and OED, and they all > agree on a (probably Low) German word like kraanbere 'cranberry,' lit. > 'crane-berry.' Cf. also Sw. tranbär, Da. tranebaer 'cranberry' < trana, > trane, 'crane.' I'm open to persuasion though! Well, there doesn't seem to be any question that the etynology here is crane-berry, and there seems to be general agreement that the word comes into English as some sort of a loan, too, i.e., not from Old English - whether whatever crane-berry would have been in Old English. Now the only question in my mind, is whether this is an original faux-pas of my own, a glitch in my memory, or whether I mislearned this from someone else? Anyway, my apologies for the misinformation. I'm glad we've got people on the list who can catch and correct things like this! From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Jul 19 07:28:50 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 01:28:50 -0600 Subject: Cranberries In-Reply-To: <002801c46b4e$74194210$21b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jul 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > The question for Siouanists, then, is what does *htak- mean? Well, first, it turns out that my memory had another hole in it. The form for 'cranberry' in Winnebago is hooc^aN'ke, vs. hooc^aNk 'Winnebago'. Hooc^aN'kehu is 'cranberry bush'. So, the vowel is nasal after all. I've been looking for this, or, rather probably for *htaNh-, though I think *htaNk-ka and *htaNh-ka would come out the same: Da *thaNkha, Dhegiha *ttaNkka, IO *thaNkhe, Wi *c^aaNke. You would only know which if you had some reflexes of *htaNk-(a/e), presumably Da *thaNka (homophonous with thaqNka 'big'), Dhegiha *ttaNke, IO *thaNke (thaNe ~ thaNe), Wi *c^aNaNk, or presumably Da *thaNhaN, Dhegiha *ttaNhe, IO *thaNhe, Wi *c^aNaN (?), i.e., forms without the *-ka extension. In regard to the -h case, I don't think Bob has published this anywhere, but it's pretty widely known among comparative Siouanists (all less than 5 of them), that he realized that the somewhat similar senses of Dakotan -kha and -ka as verb extensions come from from adding *-ka to *CVh- and *CV0- stems respectively. (I hope to heaven I got that right!) There are various examples of *CVh- roots in the CSD. The critical cases are in Crow, if I recall, which has -Va from Vha forms. (I think it's Crow and not Hidatsa.) By the way - reflexes of *htaN-ka 'big' in Winnebago with the extension *-ka present, include besides hooc^aN'k 'Winnebago' also keec^aN'k 'turtle', cf. OP kke'ttaNga 'big turtle, i.e., snapping turtle', and rac^aN'k 'to praise'. Without *-ka I though I remembered deec^aN 'ocean' < *pre-htaN(-ka) 'lake-big', but I see Miner lists "teej^aN." As far as reflexes of *htaNh- or *thaNk-, with or without *-ka, so far nothing. I suppose *htaN-ka 'big' may provide too much interference. Without nasality I notice Good Tracks lists tak?e ~ thake 'raw', the first being from a form "tak'e" cited in Wistrand-Robinson, which might be from a form with opening apostrophe, i.e., t(h)akhe. The second form's th may support aspiration of the t. You have to combine the two forms (Jimm does) and read between the lines to get *thakhe, and, of course, that lacks the nasalization. JEK From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jul 19 12:59:35 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:59:35 -0500 Subject: from the peanut gallery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So, what is the consensus on the Hochunk etymology? Up in the air? Sometimes I wonder if these old ethnonyms can mutate slightly for some unknown reason(s). Sorta reminds me of Ojibwe /pooteewaataamii/, the name for the Potawatomi. Because of vowels length problems that term has nothing to do with "making a fire". Nevertheless, it's hard to imagine it is not really related. Michael From rankin at ku.edu Mon Jul 19 16:17:47 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:17:47 -0500 Subject: from the peanut gallery Message-ID: I'd have to admit defeat here and say that it's "up in the air" from a scientific point of view. The definition preferred by the tribal members should be taken into consideration, but such things are nearly always very susceptible to folk etymology. If an ethnonym resembles some sort of attractive phrasal analysis, it's always open to change, since the layman, when thinking of language, always prefers semantics over grammar or phonology. I'm reminded of the Kaw (or at least Mrs. Rowe's) analysis of Potawatomi, namely /bado'wadoNbe/, which is obviously based on either the Potawatomi or the English pronunciation. She felt it should mean "they're watching the hills" < bado' 'hill' + wa-doNbe '3rd person/watch them'. I guess ethnonyms should just be classified as poor retainers of phonological regularity because of their tendency toward folk reanalysis. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Mccafferty" To: Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 7:59 AM Subject: from the peanut gallery > > So, what is the consensus on the Hochunk etymology? Up in the air? > > > Sometimes I wonder if these old ethnonyms can mutate slightly for > some unknown reason(s). Sorta reminds me of Ojibwe /pooteewaataamii/, the > name for the Potawatomi. Because of vowels length problems that term has > nothing to do with "making a fire". Nevertheless, it's hard to imagine it > is not really related. > > Michael > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Jul 19 18:11:57 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:11:57 -0600 Subject: from the peanut gallery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Jul 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > So, what is the consensus on the Hochunk etymology? Up in the air? I have seen the standard 'big voice' and 'big fish' explanations in the literature and I assume they both have their Winnebago and other Siouan partisans. The 'big camp circle' explanation is, as far as I know unpublished. It occurs in the CSD, and I did refer to it in the draft on the Winnebago that I was invited to submit to the pending Encyclopedia of the Midwest, but I have no idea what will survive the editing process there. It appears that language has been determined to be fundamentally confusing to those interested in the Midwest, especially languages that don't have a Standard Average European grammar. I know some postediting of the historical material was anticipated. The problem with the distribution of the 'big camp circle' etymology is that it would only occur to a non-Winnebago, since hoo in that sense is missing in modern Winnebago. (At least as far as I can recall, and we've seen what a slender reed my memory can be.) So 'big camp circle' is a possibility recognized only by the vanishingly small community of modern comparative Siouanists, among whom the *ho 'camp circle' set was first recognized. I wonder if it might have been me who originally put together that set, possibly looking at *h-initial forms, but it was vetted by the editors, and it might have originated with one of them, too. It might have been Bob or Dick who recogized that this *ho might explain Hooc^aN'k. The comments are sometimes attributed. > Sometimes I wonder if these old ethnonyms can mutate slightly for > some unknown reason(s). Sorta reminds me of Ojibwe /pooteewaataamii/, the > name for the Potawatomi. Because of vowels length problems that term has > nothing to do with "making a fire". Nevertheless, it's hard to imagine it > is not really related. There some perhaps similar conundrums in Siouan names, of course: names with no known meaning, and names with forms not corresponding exactly with the usual interpretations of the name. Are these mutated names or folk etymologies? I couldn't say. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Jul 19 18:16:41 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:16:41 -0600 Subject: from the peanut gallery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Jul 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > So, what is the consensus on the Hochunk etymology? Up in the air? Perhaps parallel would be the Omaha village name TtaNwaN TtaNga 'Big Village'. Also note that one Dakotan name for the Omaha - I think it's the Omaha and not the Ponca - is Oyate Yamni, referring to "their practice of camping in three circles." Actually, by all accounts they always camped in one circle when on the move, so perhaps this refers to the three (non-circular) Omaha villages that existed in the middle and late 1800s. Various encampment-based metaphors are used in naming Dakotan groups, too. From rankin at ku.edu Tue Jul 20 16:23:53 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:23:53 -0500 Subject: ho- camp circle set Message-ID: > I wonder if it might have been me who originally put together that set, > possibly looking at *h-initial forms, but it was vetted by the editors, > and it might have originated with one of them, too. It might have been > Bob or Dick who recogized that this *ho might explain Hooc^aN'k. The > comments are sometimes attributed. John contributed quite a number of cognate sets having to do with ethnonyms, as I recall. But you'd have to go to the old paper slip files and look at the handwriting to be sure. Bob From Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc Fri Jul 2 15:50:52 2004 From: Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc (Louis Garcia) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:50:52 -0500 Subject: Kahomni In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Members: I am planning on doing an essay or paper on the Kahomni Dance. I have asked local speakers what the 'ka' part means. They all say it means 'the action' (Ka= action of; homni= circling). Do you concur? Toksta ake, Louie Garcia From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Sat Jul 3 02:54:40 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:54:40 -0600 Subject: Kahomni In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Louis, The basic meaning of the ka- prefix is a very general 'by force'. An example with that meaning would be kablecha 'break by hitting'. Both it and yu- 'by hand' have taken on many other meanings, including a very general 'cause, make' meaning, however, and it's hard to generalize. I think the ka- in kahomni is one of these more general uses 'made to circle, caused to circle'. That would accord with the speakers' instincts that it indicates the source of (or maybe the stimulus for) the action. I'm not familiar with "kahomni", however -- does that explanation make sense? David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, Louis Garcia wrote: > > > Members: > I am planning on doing an essay or paper on the Kahomni Dance. > I have asked local speakers what the 'ka' part means. > They all say it means 'the action' (Ka= action of; homni= circling). > Do you concur? > Toksta ake, > Louie Garcia > From Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc Sat Jul 3 22:21:41 2004 From: Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc (Louis Garcia) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:21:41 -0500 Subject: Kahomni Reply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hau Dawid: Thank you for the explaination. My friends were right when they said ka = action. Ka = force. Kahomni is the northern version of the Rabbit Dance. The only difference is the dancers go forward only. They don't go forward two steps and back one as in the Rabbit Dance. They also have a caller - Ladies forward, kahomni (cirle),etc. Just like a square dance. Toksta ake, LouieG From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Jul 6 15:12:30 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:12:30 -0600 Subject: Kahomni In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, Louis Garcia wrote: > I am planning on doing an essay or paper on the Kahomni Dance. I have > asked local speakers what the 'ka' part means. They all say it means > 'the action' (Ka= action of; homni= circling). I concur with David. I can add: - In Omaha-Ponca there is an instrumental prefix ga- with much the same meaning as Dakotan ka-, 'action by force' or 'action by striking'. This ga- appears in a number of cases seems to mean instead, or maybe just more specifically, 'action by wind or water current'. I've noticed similar usages in other Dhegiha languages and in Dakotan, though this sense of the 'by striking' is not one that appears, in, say, Boas & Deloria, at least not as far as I can recall. I believe Randy Graczyk reports a similar form in a similar sense in Crow. But in Crow this form is distinct from the 'by striking' instrumental. It looks like 'by wind' was PS *ka, while 'by striking' was PS *(r)aka. The *r is deleted with the first and second persons and present in the third. The 'by striking' instrumental is simplified in various ways in various branches of the Siouan languages, and falls together with 'by wind' in the Mississippi Valley branch. - I think -homni forms are often associated with the the whirlwind. Dick Carter once mentioned to me an example of a name that meant 'Charging Whirlwind' and included, as I recall, three repetitions of (h)omni. Unfortunately I don't recall the name! Given these two observations, I would expect the form to have something to do with spinning or whirling. I haven't looked this up in Buechel, etc., however. From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Tue Jul 6 16:51:02 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 17:51:02 +0100 Subject: English-Lakota Dictionary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Siouanists, I hope you will forgive me advertising on the Siouan list, but I thought you might like to know that Routledge have reduced the price of my English-Lakota Dictionary from the previous impossible price to a new price of $29.95, which is more like what people pay for books in America. Best wishes to all. Very much enjoyed the conference in Wayne. Yours Bruce Ingham From rankin at ku.edu Tue Jul 6 21:44:32 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 16:44:32 -0500 Subject: English-Lakota Dictionary Message-ID: > ...Routledge have reduced the price of my > English-Lakota Dictionary from the previous impossible price to a new price > of $29.95, That's great -- actually I found the original price well worth paying. > which is more like what people pay for books in America. Would that it were so! Each of my introductory Linguistics students paid US $65+ for their paperback intro textbooks last Spring. Reference books are among the better deals on the market. Textbooks are off the scale! Bob From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Wed Jul 7 06:29:57 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:29:57 +0200 Subject: English-Lakota dictionary Message-ID: > from the previous impossible price to a new price of $29.95, which is more like what people pay for books in America.<< Too late for me: I bought it last week for about 100.- Euro :-) ... but I like it nevertheless. Alfred From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Jul 8 19:42:44 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:42:44 +0100 Subject: English-Lakota Dictionary In-Reply-To: <002101c463a2$6dc16860$28b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On 6/7/04 10:44 pm, "R. Rankin" wrote: >> ...Routledge have reduced the price of my >> English-Lakota Dictionary from the previous impossible price to a new price >> of $29.95, > > That's great -- actually I found the original price well worth paying. > >> which is more like what people pay for books in America. > > Would that it were so! Each of my introductory Linguistics students paid US > $65+ for their paperback intro textbooks last Spring. Reference books are > among > the better deals on the market. Textbooks are off the scale! > > Bob > > > Thanks for the complement Yours Bruce From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Jul 9 16:11:20 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:11:20 -0600 Subject: Native Nations, Native Voices (fwd) Message-ID: I don't know anything about Gordon Bronitsky or this project, but it might be of interest to the list. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:25:14 -0600 From: Gordon Bronitsky To: john.koontz at colorado.edu Subject: Native Nations, Native Voices I am working with the Indian Pueblo Cultural Center of Albuquerque New Mexico to create Native Nations, Native Voices--a festival to honor contemporary Native language writers. To honor Native language authors, Native language writers have been invited to participate in a week-long festival. Writers will read from their works in their own languages; National language translations will be made available to the audience at the option of each writer. A special effort has been made to include and honor high school and college authors in Native languages, for they are the future of languages. Selected writers represent as broad a range of languages and styles as possible. The festival is scheduled for July 2005. Over 500 Native Nations, each with its own language and culture. These are the Nations which were encountered by the first Europeans to enter North America. Yet now Native languages are under threat everywhere, due to Euro-American educational policies, disease, and the virtual omnipresence of English language television. Some languages are extinct--from Guale to Esalen, from Eyak to Timucuan. Others are only spoken by a handful of elderly individuals. Yet throughout Native America and beyond, a small but growing body of writers are giving new voice to Native languages, using their own languages to write about and confront the world they live in, the world of the Twenty First Century. Often unknown outside their own communities, such writers have much to say to all of us. Right now, participants include 1. Greenland--Jokum Nielsen (Kalaallisut [Greenlandic]) 2. Canada--Floyd Favel (Cree), Peter Irniq (Inuktitut) 3. United States--Jim Northrup (Anishnaabe [Chippewa/Ojibwe]), Eveline Battiest Steele (Choctaw), Nia Francisco and Nora Yazzie (Navajo), Dominik Tsosie (outstanding high school writer--Navajo), Virgil Reeder. (Kawaikagamedzene [Laguna Pueblo]), Frances Washburn (Lakota) 4. Hawai?i--Kainani Kahaunaele, Larry Kimura (Hawai?ian) 5. Saipan--Frances Sablan (Chamorro) 6. Guam--Peter Onedera (Chamorro) 7. Mexico--Jesus Salinas Pedraza (Nyahnyu [Otomi]), Diego M?ndez Guzm?n (Tzeltal Maya), Ruperta Bautista Vazquez (Tzotzil Maya), Jun Tiburcio (Totonac) 8. Peru--Martin Castillo (Quechua), Felix Julca (Quechua) 9. Brazil--Nanbl? Grakan (Xokleng) Might this be of interest? Naturally I would be happy to provide more information or answer any questions you might have. Thank you. Yours, Gordon Bronitsky, PhD Bronitsky and Associates 3715 La Hacienda Dr NE Albuquerque, NM 87110 505-256-0260 e-mail g.bronitsky at att.net From mckay020 at umn.edu Fri Jul 9 18:35:54 2004 From: mckay020 at umn.edu (Cantemaza) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:35:54 -0500 Subject: English-Lakota Dictionary Message-ID: Mr. Ingham. Just out of curiosity, what were your sources for this dictionary? Did you use speakers We're collecting recources so I thought I'd ask. Piadamayaye do -Cantemaza de miye Neil McKay University of Minnesota Dakota Language Dept. Bruce Ingham wrote: > On 6/7/04 10:44 pm, "R. Rankin" wrote: > > >> ...Routledge have reduced the price of my > >> English-Lakota Dictionary from the previous impossible price to a new price > >> of $29.95, > > > > That's great -- actually I found the original price well worth paying. > > > >> which is more like what people pay for books in America. > > > > Would that it were so! Each of my introductory Linguistics students paid US > > $65+ for their paperback intro textbooks last Spring. Reference books are > > among > > the better deals on the market. Textbooks are off the scale! > > > > Bob > > > > > > > Thanks for the complement > Yours > Bruce From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Mon Jul 12 07:22:46 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:22:46 +0200 Subject: kahomni Message-ID: @David: I think the ka- in kahomni is one of these more general uses 'made to circle, caused to circle'. That would accord with the speakers' instincts that it indicates the source of (or maybe the stimulus for) the action. I'm not familiar with "kahomni", however -- does that explanation make sense? Buechel gives it explicitely in the sense of 'striking': kaho'mni - to make something turn around by striking, as a top; to turn around, as a wheel by striking; to spin, as a top This 'picture' is quite 'striking' ;-) (Remember the kids driving a hoop by striking it!) Alfred From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Mon Jul 12 18:34:28 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?Big5?B?IkFsZnJlZCBXLiBUdSJ0aW5nIg==?=) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:34:28 +0200 Subject: kahomni Message-ID: @David: I think the ka- in kahomni is one of these more general uses 'made to circle, caused to circle'. That would accord with the speakers' instincts that it indicates the source of (or maybe the stimulus for) the action. I'm not familiar with "kahomni", however -- does that explanation make sense? May I add that these 'more general uses' (in a causative sense) is not so uncommon also in other - very different - languages like German or Chinese (Putonghua): ein Rad _schlagen_ (of a peacock) ein Buch _aufschlagen_ (to open a book) ein Lager _aufschlagen_ (to camp/pitch one's camp) kai1 ? - intr. 'to open' e.g. kai1 hua2 ?? (to blossom/bloom etc.) but: _da3_ kai1 ?? - trans. to open (a book) Lit.: 'to hit open' cf. 'aufschlagen' Alfred From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Jul 13 02:25:46 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:25:46 -0600 Subject: kahomni Message-ID: Buechel gives kaho'mni(N) as 'to make something turn around by striking, as a top'. He also offers an intransitive gloss, 'to turn around, as a wheel by striking; to spin, as a top'. The intransitive gloss is inherited from Riggs, but the transitive definition is new. Riggs also offers a transitive definition based on action of wind or water, 'to turn, as water or wind does a mill-wheel'. Williams gives (under 'spin') a transitive definition pahomni(N), kahomni(N) 'to spin a top'. Williams also gives kahomni as the transitive of 'whirl'. The intransitive is given as homni. Homni(N)' is given in Riggs as 'round, going round', with crossreferences to oho'mni, and yuhomni. Buechel doesn't list homni separately, either in the main list or in the supplement. Williams gives 'whirlpool' as mniomni and 'whirlwind' as t[h]ateiyumni. Buechel gives wamniomni as 'whirwind, whirlpool' and yumnimni as 'hurricane'. Ingham lists both wamni'omni 'whirlpool, whirlwind' and thate'iyumni 'whirlwind'. Given the strong connections among the Riggs/Williams/Buechel dictionaries, it's interesting to see such variation, however minor, in their treatment of a particular form. Clearly there are some complications to the form of (h)(o)mni 'to turn in circles (?)'. Perhaps homni is a compoiund based on mni, or perhaps some contraction of V(h)V is involved. Examples of ka- 'by wind or water': kaghi' 'to stop one's progress, to be in one's way, as a river' kaxtaN' to soak up, to soak in, as does grease in wood' kaxwo'ka 'to be carried along by the wind; to float like clouds' kai'c^ogha 'to come off, slide away, as wood in water' kai'z^ena 'to confuse, mix up, as the wind does' kai's^tamnihaNpi hiyuya (?) 'to bring tears to one's eyes, as the wind does' kaz^a'z^a 'to wash away, as bridge by a flood' kaz^o' 'to have diarrhoea; to whistle as the wind does' kak?o'za, etc. 'to leave hard and bare, as the wind does the ground' kala' 'to scatter, as grain' ... John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Jul 13 06:53:07 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:53:07 +0200 Subject: kahomni Message-ID: @John: Clearly there are some complications to the form of (h)(o)mni 'to turn in circles (?)'. Perhaps homni is a compound based on mni, or perhaps some contraction of V(h)V is involved. Also, the part _ho-_ seems to refer to the idea of 'round/circle' (Buechel: ho- - It makes them refer to a circle of camps] with quite some examples) I wonder if the different words _ho_ (voice, fish) are just homophones or etymologically connected in some way. Same with the part _mni_ (above): Apart from its meaning 'water', it seems to refer to smth 'round/spinning' etc. too, cf. Buechel: mnic^a'tomni - windmill (!) mni'c^iyA - to assemble e.g a feast; to make a feast or call an assembly (-> camp circle?) Alfred From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Jul 13 16:48:56 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:48:56 -0600 Subject: kahomni In-Reply-To: <40F386D3.60205@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: > Also, the part _ho-_ seems to refer to the idea of 'round/circle' > (Buechel: ho- - It makes them refer to a circle of camps] with quite > some examples) That's true. I hadn't thought of this. This is at least a Mississippi Valley Siouan set, and was included in the CSD. For example, Omaha-Ponca has hu(u)'dhuga 'camp circle'. The second part -dhuga is apparently a locative of sorts < *=roka 'in the middle of', as far as I can recall at the moment. Note that *o > u in OP. The root *ho is found elsewhere in other MVS languages, as is the locative extension *=roka, though not generally in conjunction with each other. > I wonder if the different words _ho_ (voice, fish) are just homophones > or etymologically connected in some way. I think just homophones *ho (1) 'fish', *ho (2) 'voice', *ho (3) 'circle'. It seems to me that the usual analyses of hoo-c^aNk, etc., 'Winnebago' in terms of 'big voice' and 'big fish' make less sense than 'big-(camp) circle', which strikes me as an excellent village name - and village names are likely sources of ethnic names. However, since *ho (3) isn't attested in Winnebago, this alternative has only been considered, or even occurred to anyone, in the context of the CSD project. > Same with the part _mni_ (above): Apart from its meaning 'water', it > seems to refer to smth 'round/spinning' etc. too, cf. Buechel: > mnic^a'tomni - windmill (!) > mni'c^iyA - to assemble e.g a feast; to make a feast or call an assembly > (-> camp circle?) There's a PS or at least PMVS stem *priN having to do with roundness. It occurs in extended form as *pepriN. These come out mni, pemni in Dakotan, or bdhiN, bebdhiN in Omaha-Ponca. I don't recall the sense of the extended forms at the moment. I think this is just homophonous with *priN 'water'. Of course, outside of Dakotan the nominal *priN and the verbal *priN take different phonological courses, cf., OP niN vs. -bdhiN. From rankin at ku.edu Tue Jul 13 20:28:22 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:28:22 -0500 Subject: ho 'circle' Message-ID: > It seems to me that the usual analyses of hoo-c^aNk, etc., 'Winnebago' in > terms of 'big voice' and 'big fish' make less sense than 'big-(camp) > circle', which strikes me as an excellent village name - and village names > are likely sources of ethnic names. However, since *ho (3) isn't attested > in Winnebago, this alternative has only been considered, or even occurred > to anyone, in the context of the CSD project. Well, even the /-caNk/ < *htaNka 'big, great' of /ho:caNk/ is otherwise pretty much missing from WI. I think /ho/ 'circle' is a very reasonable explanation. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Jul 13 21:37:52 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:37:52 -0600 Subject: Cranberries (Re: ho 'circle') In-Reply-To: <009301c46917$f20b5610$04b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > Well, even the /-caNk/ < *htaNka 'big, great' of /ho:caNk/ is otherwise pretty > much missing from WI. I think /ho/ 'circle' is a very reasonable explanation. While we're reetymologizing the Hochanks, I seem to remember that you yourself discovered Winnebago hoochake 'cranberry' (details of form may not be correctly remembered). Of course, that lacks the nasal, and the presence of final -e suggests *ho(o) thah-ka for that form instead of *ho(o) htaN-ka. I hadn't worried too much about the "extra" -k in Hooc^aNk, because there are some cases of c^aN < *htaN - right? - even if xaN... forms seem to be the rule for 'big' in Winnebago-Chiwere. But I guess technically, the -k might be otherwise unprecedented in (modern) HochaNk. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Jul 14 18:22:47 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:22:47 -0500 Subject: ho 'circle' In-Reply-To: <009301c46917$f20b5610$04b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: I'm having a paper published on Jean Nicollet and the Ho-chunk and have included in that article the "big fish" etymology. Should I withdraw that etymology before the piece goes to press? Siouanist of the world, unite! Let me know. Thank you, Michael McCafferty On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > > It seems to me that the usual analyses of hoo-c^aNk, etc., 'Winnebago' in > > terms of 'big voice' and 'big fish' make less sense than 'big-(camp) > > circle', which strikes me as an excellent village name - and village names > > are likely sources of ethnic names. However, since *ho (3) isn't attested > > in Winnebago, this alternative has only been considered, or even occurred > > to anyone, in the context of the CSD project. > > Well, even the /-caNk/ < *htaNka 'big, great' of /ho:caNk/ is otherwise pretty > much missing from WI. I think /ho/ 'circle' is a very reasonable explanation. > > Bob > > > "...and cicadas sing a rare and different tune..." R. Hunter From rankin at ku.edu Wed Jul 14 20:35:43 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:35:43 -0500 Subject: ho 'circle' Message-ID: I don't think there's a consensus. I remember a talk given by one Hochunk elder (by proxy) at one of the Siouan conferences in which he seemed to think the name should be rendered something like "great voice". His ethnocentric view was that they were the "oldest" Siouan-speaking tribe and presumably occupied the original homeland in Wisconsin. Needless to say, similar views, mutatis mutandis, are held by a variety of other Siouan-speaking groups. The bottom line is that I think this particular person liked /ho-/ 'voice' as the meaning, but even if this view is shared generally in the tribe, it can't be taken as historically correct necessarily. There are at least four homophonous possibilities for *ho:, and we're dealing with several thousand years of history. See also my next posting. Bob > I'm having a paper published on Jean Nicollet and the Ho-chunk and have > included in that article the "big fish" etymology. Should I withdraw that > etymology before the piece goes to press? Siouanist of the world, unite! > Let me know. > > Thank you, > > Michael McCafferty From rankin at ku.edu Wed Jul 14 20:43:43 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:43:43 -0500 Subject: Cranberries (Re: ho 'circle') Message-ID: Just to muddy the waters a bit more, bear in mind that the Ocean Spray cranberry company has a big, big operation right up there around Wisconsin Rapids near Marshfield, WI. So that particular *ho: is just as tempting. . . . ----- Original Message ----- > While we're reetymologizing the Hochanks, I seem to remember that you > yourself discovered Winnebago hoochake 'cranberry' (details of form may > not be correctly remembered). Of course, that lacks the nasal, and the > presence of final -e suggests *ho(o) thah-ka for that form instead of > *ho(o) htaN-ka. > I hadn't worried too much about the "extra" -k in Hooc^aNk, because there > are some cases of c^aN < *htaN - right? - even if xaN... forms seem to be > the rule for 'big' in Winnebago-Chiwere. But I guess technically, the -k > might be otherwise unprecedented in (modern) HochaNk. It's not so much an "extra K" that bothers me as much as the lack of the expected vowel on the end. All WI *ht become c^ (the only real "t", actually [d], in WI is from *R). The same is true for plain *t in final position. So we're no worse off here than we are with the etymology of baxoje 'Ioway', but that's not saying a lot. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Jul 14 23:26:39 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:26:39 -0600 Subject: Cranberries (Re: ho 'circle') In-Reply-To: <010f01c469e3$433de900$04b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jul 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > Just to muddy the waters a bit more, bear in mind that the Ocean Spray cranberry > company has a big, big operation right up there around Wisconsin Rapids near > Marshfield, WI. So that particular *ho: is just as tempting. . . . And the Winnebagos used to work as cranberry harvesters when that was done by hand. Still, I expect this more along the lines of a coincidence. > > I hadn't worried too much about the "extra" -k in Hooc^aNk, because there > > are some cases of c^aN < *htaN - right? - even if xaN... forms seem to be > > the rule for 'big' in Winnebago-Chiwere. But I guess technically, the -k > > might be otherwise unprecedented in (modern) HochaNk. > > It's not so much an "extra K" that bothers me as much as the lack of the > expected vowel on the end. All WI *ht become c^ (the only real "t", actually > [d], in WI is from *R). The same is true for plain *t in final position. So > we're no worse off here than we are with the etymology of baxoje 'Ioway', but > that's not saying a lot. The lack of the expected vowel has a phonologically regular solution. It appears to me that *a > *e / [velar] ___ # in Winnebago-Chiwere, and all *e > 0 (that's zero) / [simple C] __ # in Winnebago. Final e, original or from *a, is saved in Winnebago only in monosyllables and after clusters. Chiwere (Ioway-Otoe) is a God-send because it keeps all the final *e from final *a after velar, showing the vowel shift occurred. So, if Winnebago has a final -e, then you are dealing with either a (C)Ce monosyllable or -CCe. So -ke in ho(o)c^ake has to be from -Cke, presumably -hke here. Or, putting it another way -ke in Winnebago corresponds to Dakotan -kha and Dhegiha -kka and IO -khe. It's a bit obscure without the Dakotan and Dhegiha and without knowing about postvelaric final a becoming e, because IO sources tend to conflate -ke and -khe and Winnebago has k for *hk/__V and *k/_#. And this bit of business also complicates understanding a ~ e in final position, because it makes cases where there is genuine alternation in a vs. e between branches harder to see. Plenty of -e in IO and -C# in Winnebago are cases of alternating a ~ e materializing as e in WC (and being deleted finally in Winnebago). But not all. Some are plain invariant *a. To apply the rules above in the context, PMV *htaNka 'big' > PWC *thaNke > Wi c^aNk, but (PMVS *htahka ??? > PWC *thakhe ???) > Wi c^ake ??? (in ho(o)c^ake 'cranberry'). By contrast a form like *s^uNk(e/a) 'dog' comes out s^uNuNk because either *s^uNke or *s^uNka would become *s^uNke and then s^uNuNk. I suspect, however, based on the patterns in IO and Dhegiha that most of these words had -e as the more or less invariant final grade in PWC (and PDh), since there is no *a > *e after prefinal velars in Dhegiha (OP *s^aNge), and since IO has *e in forms like *suNe. Moreover, in non-velaric words like *siNt- 'tail' and *yaNp- 'beaver' you always have -e (or Wi zero from *e#), too. From rankin at ku.edu Thu Jul 15 00:01:01 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:01:01 -0500 Subject: Cranberries (Re: ho 'circle') Message-ID: > The lack of the expected vowel has a phonologically regular solution. It > appears to me that *a > *e / [velar] ___ # in Winnebago-Chiwere, and all > *e > 0 (that's zero) / [simple C] __ # in Winnebago. Final e, original or > from *a, is saved in Winnebago only in monosyllables and after clusters. > Chiwere (Ioway-Otoe) is a God-send because it keeps all the final *e > from final *a after velar, showing the vowel shift occurred. I knew that. I just couldn't remember it. :-) BTW, the reason for the modifier with the ho- 'cranberry', I think, is that the *ho by itself was probably the 'black hawthorn' ("black haws") word. It gets an 'absolutive' *wa- or *wi- in several dialects and the resultant *w-h cluster apparently comes out as a /p/. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Jul 15 22:50:44 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:50:44 -0600 Subject: Cranberries (Re: ho 'circle') In-Reply-To: <013401c469fe$d2cd5c20$04b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jul 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > BTW, the reason for the modifier with the ho- 'cranberry', I think, is > that the *ho by itself was probably the 'black hawthorn' ("black haws") > word. It gets an 'absolutive' *wa- or *wi- in several dialects and the > resultant *w-h cluster apparently comes out as a /p/. That makes sense, though I kind of wonder what the modifier might be. Sort of like "cranberry" in English, though there etymologists actually know what a cran is. (For those who haven't had Introduction to Linguistics or a similar course where this initiation secret was revealed, 'cran' = 'bog', and 'cran' as such is attested in some English or neighboring Germanic dialects, e.g. Scottish.) Is the /p/ *ph, *hp, or *p? From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Jul 15 23:44:29 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:44:29 -0500 Subject: Cranberries (Re: ho 'circle') In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > That makes sense, though I kind of wonder what the modifier might be. > Sort of like "cranberry" in English, though there etymologists actually > know what a cran is. (For those who haven't had Introduction to > Linguistics or a similar course where this initiation secret was revealed, > 'cran' = 'bog', and 'cran' as such is attested in some English or > neighboring Germanic dialects, e.g. Scottish.) Just checked American Heritage, Random House, and OED, and they all agree on a (probably Low) German word like kraanbere 'cranberry,' lit. 'crane-berry.' Cf. also Sw. tranb?r, Da. tranebaer 'cranberry' < trana, trane, 'crane.' I'm open to persuasion though! Alan From rankin at ku.edu Fri Jul 16 16:03:30 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:03:30 -0500 Subject: Cranberries Message-ID: I was once told, can't remember by whom, that it was a Mr. Crane who domesticated them. Actually, maybe all these explanations are right. It depends on what k/tran meant in common Germanic. And I'm the wrong person to ask about that. The question for Siouanists, then, is what does *htak- mean? Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan H. Hartley" To: Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 6:44 PM Subject: Re: Cranberries (Re: ho 'circle') > Koontz John E wrote: > > > That makes sense, though I kind of wonder what the modifier might be. > > Sort of like "cranberry" in English, though there etymologists actually > > know what a cran is. (For those who haven't had Introduction to > > Linguistics or a similar course where this initiation secret was revealed, > > 'cran' = 'bog', and 'cran' as such is attested in some English or > > neighboring Germanic dialects, e.g. Scottish.) > > Just checked American Heritage, Random House, and OED, and they all > agree on a (probably Low) German word like kraanbere 'cranberry,' lit. > 'crane-berry.' Cf. also Sw. tranb?r, Da. tranebaer 'cranberry' < trana, > trane, 'crane.' I'm open to persuasion though! > > Alan > > From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri Jul 16 16:26:48 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:26:48 -0500 Subject: Cranberries In-Reply-To: <002801c46b4e$74194210$21b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: > what k/tran meant in common Germanic. 'crane' Alan From rankin at ku.edu Fri Jul 16 19:55:41 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:55:41 -0500 Subject: Cranberries Message-ID: Hmmm, not much real help there, is there. Is there really a 'bog' meaning, or was there a Mr. Crane or neither, I wonder. And I also wonder if the k/t equation is a real sound correspondence set between North Germanic and the rest of the family. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan H. Hartley" To: Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 11:26 AM Subject: Re: Cranberries > > what k/tran meant in common Germanic. > > 'crane' > > Alan > > From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri Jul 16 20:07:53 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:07:53 -0500 Subject: Cranberries In-Reply-To: <002801c46b6e$e14b2770$1ab5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: > Hmmm, not much real help there, is there. Is there really a 'bog' meaning, or > was there a Mr. Crane or neither, I wonder. And I also wonder if the k/t > equation is a real sound correspondence set between North Germanic and the rest > of the family. Not sure about the latter--I can't think of any other examples--but s.v. CRANE, OED says "OE. cran corresponds to MG. kran, MLG. kr?n, kr?n. Cf. MDu. crne, Du. kraan: < OLG. krano, kranu, OHG. with guttural suffix, chranuh, chranih, MHG. kranech, kranich, G. kranich. The corresp. Norse forms have initial tr- for kr-, ON. trani, Sw. trana, Da. trane." A. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sat Jul 17 09:08:42 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:08:42 +0200 Subject: cranberries - was: kahomni Message-ID: Here's my two cents to this issue (mainly in German): Cranberry - German: Kranbeere, also Kr?nbeere, per. reg. 'Preisselbeere (< 14. Jh.) 'Kranichsbeere' (lit.: crane berry), initially for 'Moosbeere'. 'Kranich' m. (crane) (< 8. Jh.) Mhd. kranech(e), kranch(e), ahd. kranuh, kranih, from wg. *kranuka- m. 'Kranich', also in ae. cornoc. Without the suffix s. Kran, mhd- Kran(e), ahd. krano, as. krano, ae. cran (*crana-lon), mhd. kruon, mndd. kran, kron. Outside of the germanic languages, there's no common base although the words are comparable pretty well: gr. g?ranos, f./(m.), kymr. garan, (gall. -garanos), lit. garanys (Reiher, Storch/heron, stork), arm. krunk (with k-extension), lat. grus (with u-extension), lit. g?rve f., russ-kslav. zeravi. Maybe, it's onomatopoeic, though this assumption only seems to match with the Latin, as the cry of a crane could be given as [gruu]. Maybe these are Vriddhi-formings (cf. Gauch). In Old Norse, the crane is 'trani' maybe a variant of the same word. (Kluge, Etymologisches W?rterbuch der deutschen Sprache, de Gruyter 1995) Alfred From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Jul 19 06:48:46 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 00:48:46 -0600 Subject: Cranberries (Re: ho 'circle') In-Reply-To: <40F716DD.5050704@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jul 2004, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > Just checked American Heritage, Random House, and OED, and they all > agree on a (probably Low) German word like kraanbere 'cranberry,' lit. > 'crane-berry.' Cf. also Sw. tranb?r, Da. tranebaer 'cranberry' < trana, > trane, 'crane.' I'm open to persuasion though! Well, there doesn't seem to be any question that the etynology here is crane-berry, and there seems to be general agreement that the word comes into English as some sort of a loan, too, i.e., not from Old English - whether whatever crane-berry would have been in Old English. Now the only question in my mind, is whether this is an original faux-pas of my own, a glitch in my memory, or whether I mislearned this from someone else? Anyway, my apologies for the misinformation. I'm glad we've got people on the list who can catch and correct things like this! From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Jul 19 07:28:50 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 01:28:50 -0600 Subject: Cranberries In-Reply-To: <002801c46b4e$74194210$21b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jul 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > The question for Siouanists, then, is what does *htak- mean? Well, first, it turns out that my memory had another hole in it. The form for 'cranberry' in Winnebago is hooc^aN'ke, vs. hooc^aNk 'Winnebago'. Hooc^aN'kehu is 'cranberry bush'. So, the vowel is nasal after all. I've been looking for this, or, rather probably for *htaNh-, though I think *htaNk-ka and *htaNh-ka would come out the same: Da *thaNkha, Dhegiha *ttaNkka, IO *thaNkhe, Wi *c^aaNke. You would only know which if you had some reflexes of *htaNk-(a/e), presumably Da *thaNka (homophonous with thaqNka 'big'), Dhegiha *ttaNke, IO *thaNke (thaNe ~ thaNe), Wi *c^aNaNk, or presumably Da *thaNhaN, Dhegiha *ttaNhe, IO *thaNhe, Wi *c^aNaN (?), i.e., forms without the *-ka extension. In regard to the -h case, I don't think Bob has published this anywhere, but it's pretty widely known among comparative Siouanists (all less than 5 of them), that he realized that the somewhat similar senses of Dakotan -kha and -ka as verb extensions come from from adding *-ka to *CVh- and *CV0- stems respectively. (I hope to heaven I got that right!) There are various examples of *CVh- roots in the CSD. The critical cases are in Crow, if I recall, which has -Va from Vha forms. (I think it's Crow and not Hidatsa.) By the way - reflexes of *htaN-ka 'big' in Winnebago with the extension *-ka present, include besides hooc^aN'k 'Winnebago' also keec^aN'k 'turtle', cf. OP kke'ttaNga 'big turtle, i.e., snapping turtle', and rac^aN'k 'to praise'. Without *-ka I though I remembered deec^aN 'ocean' < *pre-htaN(-ka) 'lake-big', but I see Miner lists "teej^aN." As far as reflexes of *htaNh- or *thaNk-, with or without *-ka, so far nothing. I suppose *htaN-ka 'big' may provide too much interference. Without nasality I notice Good Tracks lists tak?e ~ thake 'raw', the first being from a form "tak'e" cited in Wistrand-Robinson, which might be from a form with opening apostrophe, i.e., t(h)akhe. The second form's th may support aspiration of the t. You have to combine the two forms (Jimm does) and read between the lines to get *thakhe, and, of course, that lacks the nasalization. JEK From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jul 19 12:59:35 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:59:35 -0500 Subject: from the peanut gallery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So, what is the consensus on the Hochunk etymology? Up in the air? Sometimes I wonder if these old ethnonyms can mutate slightly for some unknown reason(s). Sorta reminds me of Ojibwe /pooteewaataamii/, the name for the Potawatomi. Because of vowels length problems that term has nothing to do with "making a fire". Nevertheless, it's hard to imagine it is not really related. Michael From rankin at ku.edu Mon Jul 19 16:17:47 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:17:47 -0500 Subject: from the peanut gallery Message-ID: I'd have to admit defeat here and say that it's "up in the air" from a scientific point of view. The definition preferred by the tribal members should be taken into consideration, but such things are nearly always very susceptible to folk etymology. If an ethnonym resembles some sort of attractive phrasal analysis, it's always open to change, since the layman, when thinking of language, always prefers semantics over grammar or phonology. I'm reminded of the Kaw (or at least Mrs. Rowe's) analysis of Potawatomi, namely /bado'wadoNbe/, which is obviously based on either the Potawatomi or the English pronunciation. She felt it should mean "they're watching the hills" < bado' 'hill' + wa-doNbe '3rd person/watch them'. I guess ethnonyms should just be classified as poor retainers of phonological regularity because of their tendency toward folk reanalysis. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Mccafferty" To: Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 7:59 AM Subject: from the peanut gallery > > So, what is the consensus on the Hochunk etymology? Up in the air? > > > Sometimes I wonder if these old ethnonyms can mutate slightly for > some unknown reason(s). Sorta reminds me of Ojibwe /pooteewaataamii/, the > name for the Potawatomi. Because of vowels length problems that term has > nothing to do with "making a fire". Nevertheless, it's hard to imagine it > is not really related. > > Michael > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Jul 19 18:11:57 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:11:57 -0600 Subject: from the peanut gallery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Jul 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > So, what is the consensus on the Hochunk etymology? Up in the air? I have seen the standard 'big voice' and 'big fish' explanations in the literature and I assume they both have their Winnebago and other Siouan partisans. The 'big camp circle' explanation is, as far as I know unpublished. It occurs in the CSD, and I did refer to it in the draft on the Winnebago that I was invited to submit to the pending Encyclopedia of the Midwest, but I have no idea what will survive the editing process there. It appears that language has been determined to be fundamentally confusing to those interested in the Midwest, especially languages that don't have a Standard Average European grammar. I know some postediting of the historical material was anticipated. The problem with the distribution of the 'big camp circle' etymology is that it would only occur to a non-Winnebago, since hoo in that sense is missing in modern Winnebago. (At least as far as I can recall, and we've seen what a slender reed my memory can be.) So 'big camp circle' is a possibility recognized only by the vanishingly small community of modern comparative Siouanists, among whom the *ho 'camp circle' set was first recognized. I wonder if it might have been me who originally put together that set, possibly looking at *h-initial forms, but it was vetted by the editors, and it might have originated with one of them, too. It might have been Bob or Dick who recogized that this *ho might explain Hooc^aN'k. The comments are sometimes attributed. > Sometimes I wonder if these old ethnonyms can mutate slightly for > some unknown reason(s). Sorta reminds me of Ojibwe /pooteewaataamii/, the > name for the Potawatomi. Because of vowels length problems that term has > nothing to do with "making a fire". Nevertheless, it's hard to imagine it > is not really related. There some perhaps similar conundrums in Siouan names, of course: names with no known meaning, and names with forms not corresponding exactly with the usual interpretations of the name. Are these mutated names or folk etymologies? I couldn't say. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Jul 19 18:16:41 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:16:41 -0600 Subject: from the peanut gallery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Jul 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > So, what is the consensus on the Hochunk etymology? Up in the air? Perhaps parallel would be the Omaha village name TtaNwaN TtaNga 'Big Village'. Also note that one Dakotan name for the Omaha - I think it's the Omaha and not the Ponca - is Oyate Yamni, referring to "their practice of camping in three circles." Actually, by all accounts they always camped in one circle when on the move, so perhaps this refers to the three (non-circular) Omaha villages that existed in the middle and late 1800s. Various encampment-based metaphors are used in naming Dakotan groups, too. From rankin at ku.edu Tue Jul 20 16:23:53 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:23:53 -0500 Subject: ho- camp circle set Message-ID: > I wonder if it might have been me who originally put together that set, > possibly looking at *h-initial forms, but it was vetted by the editors, > and it might have originated with one of them, too. It might have been > Bob or Dick who recogized that this *ho might explain Hooc^aN'k. The > comments are sometimes attributed. John contributed quite a number of cognate sets having to do with ethnonyms, as I recall. But you'd have to go to the old paper slip files and look at the handwriting to be sure. Bob