From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 2 07:14:10 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:14:10 -0700 Subject: calumet de paix In-Reply-To: <404092D2.8471.7054D@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 bi1 at soas.ac.uk wrote: > Haven't seen it in, Lakota, but there is the related expression chanli > yus^ka 'untie the tobacco bundles' signifying 'to make peace' and later > on wicazo yuthanpi 'touching the pen' signifying to make a treaty (with > the whites) At the risk of partially reversing myself, here's an example of peace-making in the Dorsey texts involving a pipe. There is no spdecific reference to peace, only to ceasing fighting. JOD 1890:400.6-7 Ni(N)ni'(N)ba ha's^i thi'= thaN e' i'naNs^taN=bi=ama pipe later he arrived here the-standing that they stopped QUOTE It was the second man who presented the pipe that they stopped for. The main verb is i'naNstaN 'to stop by means of'. The e' clearly forms a focussing cleft. "It was the second whom they stopped for" as opposed to the first man (who was killed for his trouble). I think that nini'ba 'pipe' and thi'=thaN 'the one who came' are separate arguments of i'naNs^taN 'they stopped for the one who came by means of (on account of) (the) pipe'. The alternative 'they stopped for the one who brought (came bringing) (the) pipe' requires thi' to act as a transitive verb. There is also a case of a pipe being used to make war: JOD 1890:395.7-9 GaN' ni'kkagahi=akha ni[N]ni'[N]ba waxu'be gagha'=i= khe and so chief the pipe holy he made it the uz^i'=bi= ama he filled it QUOTE The chief filled a pipe which he held sacred. GaN' g=a'=bi= ama: and so he said as follows QUOTE And he spoke thus: "Ni[N]ni[N]'ba ga'=khe ppaN'dhiN waNgakhidha=tta=i=the pipe yon the Pawnees we shall surely revenge ourselves on i'dhana[N]hiN=i=kki, dhana'=i= ga ha. you are willing if put your lips to it IMP DEC If you are willing that we should revenge ourselves on the Pawnees, participate in this pipe. Us^ni's^?aga=i= kki, dhana'=b=az^i= ga ha, a'=bi= ama You are unwilling if do not put your lips to it IMP DEC he said QUOTE If you are unwilling, do not participate," he said. From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Tue Mar 2 11:53:30 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:53:30 -0000 Subject: calumet de paix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Back on the pipes, there is a verb given by Buechel as iyataN or iyathaN 'to touch the pipe with the lips'. I have always presumed this to be iyathaN like eyuthaN 'to touch', but have seen both forms. Does anyone know? Bruce From hhgarvin at hotmail.com Tue Mar 2 13:33:40 2004 From: hhgarvin at hotmail.com (hhgarvin at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 07:33:40 -0600 Subject: Details Message-ID: Your document is attached. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: my_details.pif Type: application/octet-stream Size: 17424 bytes Desc: not available URL: From napshawin at msn.com Tue Mar 2 15:48:51 2004 From: napshawin at msn.com (CATCHES VIOLET) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 09:48:51 -0600 Subject: calumet de paix Message-ID: iyatan means to light the pipe(one has to put the pipe to the mouth to light it) but iyatxan does not exist unpe means to smoke it yagxu means to smoke all the tobacco in the pipe Violet Catches, miye >From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: RE: calumet de paix >Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:53:30 -0000 > >Back on the pipes, there is a verb given by Buechel as iyataN or >iyathaN 'to touch the pipe with the lips'. I have always presumed this to >be iyathaN like eyuthaN 'to touch', but have seen both forms. Does >anyone know? > >Bruce > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Create a Job Alert on MSN Careers and enter for a chance to win $1000! http://msn.careerbuilder.com/promo/kaday.htm?siteid=CBMSN_1K&sc_extcmp=JS_JASweep_MSNHotm2 From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Mar 2 18:29:31 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 19:29:31 +0100 Subject: calumet de (la) paix Message-ID: That's what I found: iya'txaN - to touch with the mouth iya'taN - to light (e.g a pipe) e'yutaN - to go near and touch iyutaN - to go near and touch yutxaN' - to touch, to feel yutxaN'txaNkel ma'ni - to grope, as a blind person does Apparably, the i-affixes are instrumental, _-ya-_ and _-yu-_ stand for mouth/tooth and hand action respectively. But what's about with the different pronunciations of _txaN_/_taN_?? How's the 'go near' part of _e'yutan/iyutan_ expressed?? Alfred From rankin at ku.edu Tue Mar 2 18:54:23 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:54:23 -0600 Subject: calumet de paix Message-ID: This is interesting. I wonder if these verbs are related to the Kansa/Osage verb /ibache/ /ipache/ (both langs. Have aspirated /c/ here)? It is the name of the clan that 'lights the sacred pipe'. The sound correspondences don't quite match. The final vowels are different and the Dhegiha stop is definitely aspirated, but the semantics are quite similar -- just a different instrumental prefix. Bob -----Original Message----- From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk [mailto:bi1 at soas.ac.uk] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 5:54 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: calumet de paix Back on the pipes, there is a verb given by Buechel as iyataN or iyathaN 'to touch the pipe with the lips'. I have always presumed this to be iyathaN like eyuthaN 'to touch', but have seen both forms. Does anyone know? Bruce From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 2 19:01:33 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:01:33 -0700 Subject: calumet de (la) paix In-Reply-To: <4044D28B.9030500@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, "Alfred W. Tüting" wrote: > e'yutaN - to go near and touch > iyutaN - to go near and touch > yutxaN' - to touch, to feel > > Apparably, the i-affixes are instrumental, _-ya-_ and _-yu-_ stand for > mouth/tooth and hand action respectively. But what's about with the > different pronunciations of _txaN_/_taN_?? If you used Buechel, it might be inconsistency in marking. What I wonder about is i- vs. e-. In OP e- in forms like this would be either a dative form with a- (e- < a-(g)i-) or a demonstrative. There is a -ttaN 'touch' root in OP (usually written as if -thaN by Dorsey). > How's the 'go near' part of _e'yutan/iyutan_ expressed?? Perhaps this is implicit in being able to touch with the hand? JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 2 19:09:59 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:09:59 -0700 Subject: calumet de paix In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164DF3@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > This is interesting. I wonder if these verbs are related to the > Kansa/Osage verb /ibache/ /ipache/ (both langs. Have aspirated /c/ > here)? It is the name of the clan that 'lights the sacred pipe'. The > sound correspondences don't quite match. The final vowels are different > and the Dhegiha stop is definitely aspirated, but the semantics are > quite similar -- just a different instrumental prefix. Maybe, on reflection that OP root is -the (not thaN). I'd have to check - I've apparently just exceeded the range of my vocabulary. Whatever the vowel is, Dorsey always writes the stop t + opening apostrophe. I'd always understood that this was actually tt, but I don't think I ever elicited it, so my source for that would probably have been Bob. In any event, my impression has always been that when Dorsey specifically indicated aspiration like this in OP he was more or less entirely unreliable. Note that he writes stop + closing apostrophe for ejectives, but fricative plus opening apostrophe for glottalized fricatives. Stop plus opening apostrophe is something else, and I would assume it was aspiration. I don't recall if and what he says. Note that if Dhegiha *-the matches Da *-thaN, that would be a rare case of dental aspirate matching dental aspirate. From rankin at ku.edu Tue Mar 2 20:45:16 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 14:45:16 -0600 Subject: calumet de paix Message-ID: > Maybe, on reflection that OP root is -the (not thaN). The group is discussing a couple of different roots here. There IS a root /ttaN/ 'touch' in Kaw, yuttaN 'to touch'. I don't know if yattaN 'drink' is related or not. But there is also a root */the/. And it gives i-ba-che 'light the sacred pipe'. > Note that he [Dorsey] writes stop + closing apostrophe for ejectives, but fricative plus opening apostrophe for glottalized fricatives. Stop plus opening apostrophe is something else, and I would assume it was aspiration. Unhappily, it varies. Sometimes a stop with the opening apostrophe (spiritus 'asper) is /CC/ i.e. */hC/ but sometimes it is */Ch/. In one or two cases he writes both the apostrophe AND an /h/, as in /op'han/ 'cow elk'. Go figure. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 2 20:56:15 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:56:15 -0700 Subject: calumet de paix In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164DF4@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > The group is discussing a couple of different roots here. There IS a > root /ttaN/ 'touch' in Kaw, yuttaN 'to touch'. I don't know if yattaN > 'drink' is related or not. That would be cognate with Da yatkAN' 'to drink', so it would only be related if Kaw yuttaN involves PMVS *-tkaN as opposed to a hypothetical *-htaN. > But there is also a root */the/. And it gives i-ba-che 'light the > sacred pipe'. > ... > Unhappily, it varies. Sometimes a stop with the opening apostrophe > (spiritus 'asper) is /CC/ i.e. */hC/ but sometimes it is */Ch/. In one > or two cases he writes both the apostrophe AND an /h/, as in /op'han/ > 'cow elk'. Go figure. All I can think of in that respect is that OP aNphaN 'elk' is one of the terms that in OP have ph instead of h from *ph. From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Mar 3 17:50:50 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 17:50:50 -0000 Subject: calumet de paix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you Violet. That was what I wanted to know Bruce On 2 Mar 2004 at 9:48, CATCHES VIOLET wrote: Date sent: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 09:48:51 -0600 Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: "CATCHES VIOLET" To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: calumet de paix > > iyatan means to light the pipe(one has to put the pipe to the mouth to light > it) > but > iyatxan does not exist > unpe means to smoke it > > yagxu means to smoke all the tobacco in the pipe > > Violet Catches, miye > > >From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk > >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > >Subject: RE: calumet de paix > >Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:53:30 -0000 > > > >Back on the pipes, there is a verb given by Buechel as iyataN or > >iyathaN 'to touch the pipe with the lips'. I have always presumed this to > >be iyathaN like eyuthaN 'to touch', but have seen both forms. Does > >anyone know? > > > >Bruce > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Create a Job Alert on MSN Careers and enter for a chance to win $1000! > http://msn.careerbuilder.com/promo/kaday.htm?siteid=CBMSN_1K&sc_extcmp=JS_JASweep_MSNHotm2 > > From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Mar 3 17:58:36 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 17:58:36 -0000 Subject: calumet de (la) paix In-Reply-To: <4044D28B.9030500@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: That was rather my point. I wondered whether iya'txaN - to touch with the mouth and > iya'taN - to light (e.g a pipe) were perhaps the same thing, but had been interpreted differently in different contexts. The i- prefix looks as though it refers to mouth as in i-ognaka 'put in the mouth'. I see however the Vilolet says that iyathaN does not exist, but that iyataN means to 'raise the pipe to the lips' Bruce On 2 Mar 2004 at 19:29, Alfred W. Tüting wrote: Date sent: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 19:29:31 +0100 Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: "Alfred W. Tüting" To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: calumet de (la) paix > That's what I found: > > > iya'txaN - to touch with the mouth > iya'taN - to light (e.g a pipe) > e'yutaN - to go near and touch > iyutaN - to go near and touch > yutxaN' - to touch, to feel > yutxaN'txaNkel ma'ni - to grope, as a blind person does > > Apparably, the i-affixes are instrumental, _-ya-_ and _-yu-_ stand for > mouth/tooth and hand action respectively. But what's about with the > different pronunciations of _txaN_/_taN_?? > How's the 'go near' part of _e'yutan/iyutan_ expressed?? > > Alfred > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Mar 4 08:08:49 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 01:08:49 -0700 Subject: calumet de paix In-Reply-To: <40409751.11380.1892F4@localhost> Message-ID: When I was looking for matches for OP nudaN' I stumbled on Da (Te) zuya' (wazu'ye A1, etc.), which is listed in Ingham as 'to go on a war party, raid'. This is pretty much equivalent to OP nudaN in definition. Buechel has it as 'to go on a war party, to make war, to lead out a war party' and agrees with prefixal inflection. The definition is taken from Riggs in this case, but Riggs shows the inflection as zuwa'ya A1, etc. On the other hand the cognate for nudaN' is found in Te blota'huNka 'war chief', cf. OP nudaN'haNga 'war leader'. This is the term (in OP) specifically for the leader of a raiding party. So the Mississippi Valley forms are: Te blota'- (Not attested in Santee that I can see.) OP nudaN', Ks dodaN', Os totaN', Qu totaN' IO dothaN', Wi doochaN' This is a fairly irregular set. The Dhegiha set suggest *RotaN, or given that *pr behaves like *R in nouns, it could be *protaN. Compare Te ble' 'lake' and OP ne', Ks j^e, etc. The IO and Wi set suggest *RohtaN' (or *prohtaN'). Teton is consistent with *prota', lacking the nasalization. The irregularities may be explicable. The CSD compares Madan rotki- 'to hit' and Tutelo e'ruta'one 'warrior', where at last the latter looks reasonable. Perhaps because we know so little about Tutelo, of course! The editors (Carter, Jones and Rankin) suggest that the final nasal where present is due to fusing with *uN 'to do, make', and point to the -one at the end of the Tutelo form (oN + ???). They then observe that the Hidatsa form maceeriiri 'warpath, war party' is a transparent compound of matse 'man' (not 'male') and dide 'walk'. (I have these component forms from W. Matthews, who gives matsedidi for 'warparty'. The difference in source explains the change in orthography. Note that c = ts.) The editors suggest that the underlying form is *pro-ta=(uN), with -ta- unexplained. They wonder if analysis of *pro- as a separate morpheme 'male' is secondary. They suggest that the aspiration in IO-Wi may be due to an analogy with *htaNh- 'to run'. They note Choctaw tanampi 'be hostile, fight, beat war', though, of course, the resemblance here pretty vague. (I might be responsible for noting the similarity.) Munro and Willmond give clearly related Chickasaw tanap (IIIp => III series pronouns for possession) 'war' with related stems intanap 'enemy', tanampo 'gun', tannap 'other side'. I could be wrong, but I think these related stems might represent something like a typical selection of derived stems, i.e., in this case dative, continuative (?), and intensive. However I am not the person to go to for Muskogean morphology! My Muskogean resources are pretty limited, but I didn't notice a comparable Alabama form in Systestine, Hardy and Montler. Choctaw and Chickasaw are pretty close - different points in a dialect continuum, perhaps. Terms for 'foreign nation' and 'stranger' in OP generally tend to imply enmity, too. On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 bi1 at soas.ac.uk wrote: > Interesting about 'war'. I have seen a phrase ob kicis unpi 'they were > figting them' meaning they were at war with them. Generally also the > phrase thokkiciyapi 'consider eachother enemies ' is heard, but as in > many societies 'foreigners' or 'strangers' were generally 'enemies' > unless some special arrangement had been made. Or at least that is the > picture that emerges from texts such as those of Buechel, Deloria and > Bushotter. In arabic too the word qom meaning in one sense 'people' > also means 'enemies', or at least among the bedouin that is so. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Mar 4 16:24:45 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:24:45 -0600 Subject: calumet de paix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > Te blota'- > (Not attested in Santee that I can see.) How about Riggs' mde-tang'-hung-ka (perhaps, as Bob suggested, for mdo-tang'-hung-ka), which he cites alongside Te blo-tang'-hung-ka ? > OP nudaN', Ks dodaN', Os totaN', Qu totaN' > > IO dothaN', Wi doochaN' The IO, Ks, Os and Qu all forms look like pretty good matches for Capt. Clark's Torto-hongar (Partezon) from 1804. The other two Teton chiefs recognized in the same ceremony were: Un-ton gar-Sar bar, Black Buffalow Tar-ton-gar-wa-ker, Buffalow medison The latter seems good Teton (dropping the r's), but what about the former? What is "Un-ton gar"? Why would one Teton chief be given an IO or Ks name and the other two(?) Te names? OP would seem a more logical non-Teton source geographically and given the presence in the party of Omaha-speaker Pierre Cruzatte, but the OP n- doesn't fit for Torto-hongar. Thanks, Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Mar 4 16:35:41 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 09:35:41 -0700 Subject: calumet de paix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It occurred to me that I failed to give my opinion on several of the points reported. On Thu, 4 Mar 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > The editors (Carter, Jones and Rankin) suggest that the final nasal where > present is due to fusing with *uN 'to do, make', and point to the -one at > the end of the Tutelo form (oN + ???). This is an interesting suggestion, but in that case I'd expect IO *tothuN and Wi *dooc^uN, whereas -aN is what is attested. Usually in MVS V=V sequences V2 wins out, rather than a merger occurring. I've run into the same problem trying to account for the final aN in the widely attested form s^ahaN 'Dakota speaker' in terms of the also widely attested s^ahi 'Cree, Cheyenne'. It appeals, but doesn't quite work right. > They then observe that the Hidatsa form maceeriiri 'warpath, war party' > is a transparent compound of matse 'man' (not 'male') and dide 'walk'. This is likely to be a helpful comparison, given that the initial seems to be *pro, which could be 'male'. It would be helpful to know how widely this formula is used elsewhere in the region. Of course, it's possible that the trope refers to 'person (= victim) going' rather than 'male (= like a male) going', and I think that is why the editors note carefully that mace(e) is 'man (person?)' rather than 'male'. > They suggest that the aspiration in IO-Wi may be due to an analogy with > *htaNh- 'to run'. This sort of thing certainly happens, but it's always hard to feel really confident about diagnosing it in languages so little understood lexically. > They note Choctaw tanampi 'be hostile, fight, beat war', though, of > course, the resemblance here pretty vague. (I might be responsible for > noting the similarity.) Although one might explain the loss of -pi by assuming it was taken as a plural, tana(N)- isn't a particularly good match for the *prota(N), *RotaN, *Ro(o)htaN forms observed in Siouan and I would be inclined to withdraw the comparison. It's true that the irregularity of the set makes one wonder about loans, but with loans you expect a pretty exact fit as to form, within the bounds of reanalysis and phonology. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Mar 4 16:46:36 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 09:46:36 -0700 Subject: calumet de paix In-Reply-To: <4047584D.8060505@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > Koontz John E wrote: > > Te blota'- > > (Not attested in Santee that I can see.) > > How about Riggs' mde-tang'-hung-ka (perhaps, as Bob suggested, for > mdo-tang'-hung-ka), which he cites alongside Te blo-tang'-hung-ka ? I missed the form in Riggs and in Rankin's suggestion - which I take it was a recent post? [I hope I didn't overlook this in the CSD!] The -tang- provides a final nasal and allows us to suppose *protaN', a better match for the *RotaN < *protaN forms in Dhegiha. > > OP nudaN', Ks dodaN', Os totaN', Qu totaN' > > > > IO dothaN', Wi doochaN' > > The IO, Ks, Os and Qu all forms look like pretty good matches for Capt. > Clark's Torto-hongar (Partezon) from 1804. > > The other two Teton chiefs recognized in the same ceremony were: > > Un-ton gar-Sar bar, Black Buffalow > > Tar-ton-gar-wa-ker, Buffalow medison > > The latter seems good Teton (dropping the r's), but what about the > former? What is "Un-ton gar"? I don't know. The second part looks like thaNka 'big', of course. > Why would one Teton chief be given an IO or Ks name and the other two(?) > Te names? > > OP would seem a more logical non-Teton source geographically and given > the presence in the party of Omaha-speaker Pierre Cruzatte, but the OP > n- doesn't fit for Torto-hongar. It does look more like, say, Osage or IO. Could it be (m)torto-hangar? I'm thinking this is the second case recently encountered where L&C provide a form logically attributed to the translator as if it was the one provided by the original speaker ... but I can't remember what the first case was. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Mar 4 17:08:27 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 11:08:27 -0600 Subject: calumet de paix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I missed the form in Riggs and in Rankin's suggestion - which I take it > was a recent post? 13 Oct. 2003 > It does look more like, say, Osage or IO. Could it be (m)torto-hangar? I think you're right: I suggested that back in Oct. and had already forgotten. > I'm thinking this is the second case recently encountered where L&C > provide a form logically attributed to the translator as if it was the one > provided by the original speaker ... but I can't remember what the first > case was. Probably the same case: apologies for twice-chewed cabbage. Alan From rankin at ku.edu Fri Mar 5 19:09:23 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:09:23 -0600 Subject: More on font(s) for Siouan Message-ID: Some time ago, in a message to the Siouan list, Constantine Xmelnickii recommended a new Unicode font available from the University of Frankfurt. Since I now have an XP machine that automatically supports Unicode, I finally got around to downloading the font. It does indeed contain every symbol I could conceivably use in Siouan linguistics, or any other language for that matter. It also includes a large variety of foreign alphabets, among them Cyrillic (all variants), Greek (all variants), Georgian, Arabic, Japanese, Ethiopic, Armenian and others, plus the entire IPA. It is so inclusive that you might have trouble locating a particular symbol in all the variety. It's certainly worth downloading (it's free), and at some point we may be able to shift to using it on the Siouan list (although for the moment, I don't know if things like Unix mailers, etc. are compatible). The URL for the font is: http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/indexe.htm . Look along the right hand side of the display for "fonts" and click. It will give you instructions for downloading for either PC or MAC. Thanks Constantine! Bob Robert L. Rankin, Ph.D. Professor of Linguistics University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045 USA (785) 864-2874 office (913)369-9022 home -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Mar 5 22:41:07 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 16:41:07 -0600 Subject: calumet de paix Message-ID: >> The other two Teton chiefs recognized in the same ceremony were: >> >> Un-ton gar-Sar bar, Black Buffalow >> >> Tar-ton-gar-wa-ker, Buffalow medison >> >> The latter seems good Teton (dropping the r's), but what about the >> former? What is "Un-ton gar"? >I don't know. The second part looks like thaNka 'big', of course. Could the "Un" be short for oN'phoN, with a mistranslation of "Buffalow" for "Elk"? Rory From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sat Mar 6 01:06:03 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:06:03 -0600 Subject: calumet de paix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rory M Larson wrote: >>>The other two Teton chiefs recognized in the same ceremony were: >>> >>>Un-ton gar-Sar bar, Black Buffalow >>> >>>Tar-ton-gar-wa-ker, Buffalow medison >>> >>>The latter seems good Teton (dropping the r's), but what about the >>>former? What is "Un-ton gar"? > > >>I don't know. The second part looks like thaNka 'big', of course. > > > Could the "Un" be short for oN'phoN, with a mistranslation of > "Buffalow" for "Elk"? That would be uncharacteristically drastic truncation for these journals. Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Mar 8 13:42:13 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 07:42:13 -0600 Subject: Quoppaumokee Message-ID: Benjamin Hawkins, U.S. supt. of Indian agents south of the Ohio River ca. 1800, says (Letters, 1916, 434) "They [the Creeks] went to war with the Quoppaumookee (Delaware) against the Ozauzee.." Is anyone familiar with the name Quoppaumookee? It looks like it includes "Quapaw". Martin and Mauldin (Dict. of Creek) give only wa:panáhki for 'Delaware'. (I assume Ozauzee is Osage.) Thanks, Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Mar 8 13:50:09 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 07:50:09 -0600 Subject: Quoppaumokee Message-ID: Ives Goddard just set me straight: "Just a misreading with Qu for Ou and m for nn or n." So, Quoppaumokee = Ouoppannoki = wa:panáhki Alan From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 8 13:58:33 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 08:58:33 -0500 Subject: Quoppaumokee In-Reply-To: <404C7A11.6020706@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Right. This happens quite a bit with O and Q, whence the infamous "Quabache" (for Ouabache), which is seen to this day in local tourist guides. Michael On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > Ives Goddard just set me straight: "Just a misreading with Qu for Ou and > m for nn or n." > > So, Quoppaumokee = Ouoppannoki = wa:pan�hki > > Alan > > > "Sometimes naked Sometimes mad Now the scholar Now the fool Thus they appear on the earth the free ones" -from the Hindu From boris at terracom.net Mon Mar 8 21:03:00 2004 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 15:03:00 -0600 Subject: Quoppaumokee In-Reply-To: <404C7835.1060208@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Alan Not being aware of the context, here's a shot in the dark.... ozauzee< Ozaukee (Sauk?) Alan K From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Mar 8 21:24:28 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 15:24:28 -0600 Subject: Quoppaumokee In-Reply-To: <009b01c40550$c1166750$9e5faad0@alscom> Message-ID: Alan Knutson wrote: > Not being aware of the context, here's a shot in the dark.... ozauzee< > Ozaukee (Sauk?) 'Ozauzee' is probably 'Osage' from Dhegiha waz^áz^e, with initial o- indicating transmission through an Algonquian language (or being a natural English pron. of unstressed wV- ?) See Doug Parks' synonymy in HNAI 13.493-5. Alan H. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 10 00:56:37 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 17:56:37 -0700 Subject: Virus Mail Warning Message-ID: If any of you received from this list a March 2nd message with the heading "Details" supposedly from Henning Garvin, please delete it without opening the attachment, nominally a *.pif file. This appears to be one of the present round of viruses or worms. My thanks to Henning for the warning. I either did not receive it myself - perhaps due to Unversity mail filtering - or deleted it automatically without noticing it was on the list. My regrets to any of you who may have been affected by this. This message is definitely in the archives and I am having it removed. Anything posted to the list by a legitimate member of the list is accepted for posting, though filtering at the right points may eliminate worm posts before the reach the list server or individual users. It is conceivable that the post was not from Henning but from some other list member. I'm not sure how thorough the validation of originating addresses of incoming mail is by the list server. This post would have to have passed through both the University of Colorado's list server and the LinguistList archive's incoming mail server, but it looks like it didn't pass through the Unversity of Colorado's incoming mail server. I think the less general discussion of this gets into the archives the better. If you have any comments please send them to me off list. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Mar 10 02:30:18 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 20:30:18 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man"? Message-ID: I'm wondering about MVS terms for "white man". Da: was^i'c^uN (nearly synonymous with wakhaN', according to Riggs.) OP: wa'xe (wa-axe ?? axe = ?? [x] is the voiceless form here.) Osage: iNs^ta'-xiN ("yellow-eyes", according to La Flesche.) What other ones do we have? I'd be especially interested in Iowa, Oto, Hochunk and Kaw. Can anyone suggest a derivation for the OP term? I think the explanation given in Fletcher and La Flesche (p. 81-82) is fanciful. I was tempted to think of axe as "cry out for" something, e.g. war, but this verb has the voiced form of [x] according to Dorsey; thus ag^e, "cry out for", vs. wa'h^e, "white man". Thanks, Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 10 04:14:25 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 21:14:25 -0700 Subject: Terms for "white man"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Mar 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > Da: was^i'c^uN (nearly synonymous with wakhaN', > according to Riggs.) I have some discussion at http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/faq/etymology.htm#washichun, but I basically follow the conclusions of Powers, William K. 1986. Sacred Language: the Nature of Supernatural Discourse in Lakota. University of Oklahoma Press. > OP: wa'xe (wa-axe ?? axe = ?? > [x] is the voiceless form here.) I truely doubt the waxaN'ha etymology offered by Fletcher & LaFlesche, since x and h seem to me only likely to interchange for an English speaker. I also doubt the wa-(g)a'ghe 'maker' explanation commonly offered, modulo some possiiblity of mistaking wa(a)'ghe for wa(a)'xe. If the form is analyzable in OP, and not a loan, it should be analyzable in terms of wa-(a)'xe or wa-(g)a'xe. The morphophonemic elision of g in these contexts would be regular, of course. Looking at the Dorsey texts - in lieu of a more readily accessible extensive dictionary - I see gaxe' ("gaqe'") (ablauting to ga'xa- ~ gaxa'-) 'beyond, apart, aside', which might well be relevant, e.g., wa-(g)a'xe might be 'outsiders, ones apart'. I had not previously noticed this possibility. Notice that 'aside, beyond' are also associated in Latinate except, exception, exceptional, though I doubt this has any relevance here! There is also a less likely possibility in terms of -ga-xade, as in idha'gaxade 'covered' (referring to wearing clothes) and a'gaxade 'covering' (referring to a doorway), or gaxa'daN=xc^i (maybe gaxad(e) aN=xc^i) 'with fur standing on end'. The semantics might be kind of fun, but it's just not that likely that -(ad)- would be elided, though a form like gaxa'e might occur in fast speech. Gaxa' 'branch (of tree), creek' also doesn't seem likely. > Osage: iNs^ta'-xiN ("yellow-eyes", according to La Flesche.) > > What other ones do we have? I'd be especially interested in > Iowa, Oto, Hochunk and Kaw. I'll leave these to the usual suspects, but add: Mandan waNs^i' [maNs^i'] Hidatsa mas^i (as rendered by Washington Matthews, albeit substituting s^ for s-dot) One hypothesis here is a borrowing of 'monsieur'. In fact, waa'xe isn't impossibly far from that, though I'd expect the initial m to come through as m, not w. We'd be assuming that s^ was shifted to x as some sort of fricative gradation, and noticing that final -i has a tendency to become e. I'm reluctant to suggest this with an even halfway plausible Omaha-Ponca-based etymology. The phonology of these forms in Mandan and Hidatsa is interesting. In Mandan m is usually considered since Hollow's analysis to be a variant of w conditioned by a following nasal vowel, though I seem to recall that Dick Carter had some caveats about that. In Hidatsa, on the other hand m is considered to be a variant of w conditioned by initial position. Hidatsa has no nasal vowels. In spite of both of these assumptions, this word is clearly a loan from somewhere, even if the source is Siouan-internal, and so, clearly, this form shows that m can also be borrowed in at least one of the two languages, whether or not we assume a French source. From hhgarvin at hotmail.com Wed Mar 10 04:21:11 2004 From: hhgarvin at hotmail.com (Henning Garvin) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:21:11 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man"? Message-ID: Hocank generally refers to whiteman as : /maaNhi-xete/ or "big knife", literally. There is another term that is commonly used: /wareiNnk/ I've been told that this use to refer specifically to Germans, and was in reference to them always working their farms, and that it translates as "little worker", but I am not so certain about that one. There are a number of other terms for different European nationalities, but I don't have that material with me right now. Henning Garvin Linguistic research Ho-Chunk Nation Language Division _________________________________________________________________ One-click access to Hotmail from any Web page � download MSN Toolbar now! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 10 05:05:10 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:05:10 -0700 Subject: Terms for "white man"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Mar 2004, Henning Garvin wrote: > /maaNhi-xete/ or "big knife", literally. > There is another term /wareiNnk/ > I've been told that this use to refer specifically to Germans, and was in > reference to them always working their farms, and that it translates as > "little worker", but I am not so certain about that one. It's interesting to compare Henning's forms with the entries in Miner: maN'iNxete' 'white person, non-Indian' He also gives maNaN'hiNxete' 'butcher knife', but doesn't give the etymology of (contracted) maN'iNxete' even though comparable forms in the sense 'American' are pretty common, e.g., OP maN'hiNttaNga, Da mi'la haNska. wareniN'ka 'worker, wageman (slang for whiteman)' The final -ka is unusual. This is uncontracted (n not elided). The etymology is implicit, but the association with Germans in particular is not mentioned. There's another term that is, I think, older, though also more or less obsolete in the sense 'whiteman', and that is waxopiN'ni(N) 'spirit, white person'. I think this historical form is interesting as an analog of was^i'c^u(N). The -xo(o)p- part is cognate with OP xube' 'sacred', usually distinguished by accent from xu'be 'inebriated' which has a different etymological source. (I think I have the accent right here, and my apologies if not.) Dorsey actually gives xube' (mostly) ~ xu'be (once) 'sacred' and doesn't attest the inebriated form at all. Finally, I forgot to mention that Mandan maNs^i' 'whiteman' is also the name of the Trickster, who is consequently generally called 'Whiteman' in English discussions of Mandan Trickster stories. This is the logical extension of the association of the concepts 'spider', 'trickster', and 'whiteman' that occur elsewhere in the northern plains, e.g., in Cheyenne (all three) and in Dakota (spider, trickster). I suspect that in Mandan the former 'whiteman' term has ousted the former 'trickster' term - a pity since those terms are interesting, too. I don't have the Hidatsa temr for 'spider', but the Mandan form is waNxti'riNk [maNxtiniNk] < waNxti' 'rabbit' + riNk diminutive. I don't know if waNs^i' and waNxti' are close enough in Mandan to interfere (via fricative symbolism). Interestingly, Omaha-Ponca ma(N)s^tiN'ge 'rabbit' and Is^ti'niNkhe 'Trickster' are also vaguely similar, though it's really only the s^ti(N) that they have in common. Clearly OP maNs^tiN'ge might be a sort of contracted diminutive of *waNSti' (S for fricative varying in grade), which is what Mandan has for 'rabbit'. That is maNs^tiNge could be < waNs^ti-(r)iNke, the *r suffering the same fate that it suffers in Winnebago ware'(n)iNk. JEK From tleonard at prodigy.net Wed Mar 10 05:26:08 2004 From: tleonard at prodigy.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 23:26:08 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man"? Message-ID: Thought I'd add my 2 cents on this one........ My dad, Joe Rush (Ponca), told me on many, many, occasions that "wa'xe" was an "abbreviation" of wana'xe (ghost or spirit). I've heard the same from many other Ponca elders. He said when Poncas first saw a white man they thought he was a ghost because of his pale color. I've noted some Omaha names that lend credence to this "abbreviation" (if you will).....Ma'chu Wa'xe...translated as "ghost bear". Might be folk etymology.....don't know.....but it seems consistent across the board with Ponca elders and some of the Omaha names that I've seen translated. For what it's worth, TML ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rory M Larson" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 8:30 PM Subject: Terms for "white man"? > > > > > I'm wondering about MVS terms for "white man". > > Da: was^i'c^uN (nearly synonymous with wakhaN', > according to Riggs.) > > OP: wa'xe (wa-axe ?? axe = ?? > [x] is the voiceless form here.) > > Osage: iNs^ta'-xiN ("yellow-eyes", according to La Flesche.) > > What other ones do we have? I'd be especially interested in > Iowa, Oto, Hochunk and Kaw. > > Can anyone suggest a derivation for the OP term? I think the > explanation given in Fletcher and La Flesche (p. 81-82) is > fanciful. I was tempted to think of axe as "cry out for" > something, e.g. war, but this verb has the voiced form of [x] > according to Dorsey; thus ag^e, "cry out for", vs. wa'h^e, > "white man". > > Thanks, > Rory > From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Wed Mar 10 08:16:38 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:16:38 +0100 Subject: Terms for "white man" Message-ID: >Rory: I'm wondering about MVS terms for "white man". Da: was^i'c^uN (nearly synonymous with wakhaN', according to Riggs.)<< One very often reads of wasicun <- wa-sicun [wa-s^i'c^uN] <- sicun (i.e. in the sense given by Riggs). Yet, in today's Native literature, there's commonly(?) referred to a different etymology: was^iN' (fat not dried out, fat meat; pork) + ic^u' (to take, take up anything; accept, receive) -> 'fat-taker' (stealer of fat). What do you think about it? Is it (maybe biased) 'folk etymology'? (phonologically, this derivation doesn't seem to fit too well.) Alfred From jmcbride at kayserv.net Wed Mar 10 14:25:23 2004 From: jmcbride at kayserv.net (Justin McBride) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:25:23 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man"? Message-ID: > What other ones do we have? I'd be especially interested in > Iowa, Oto, Hochunk and Kaw. The Kaw form is is^táxe (with long a perhaps, Dr. Rankin?), pretty close to the Osage form. It seems to have special meaning with regard to the French, and it also refers to eyebrows. In some combining forms, the x becomes voiced, as in is^tághe masíNha, 'half French,' and is^tághe sákkoj^e ittábe, 'whiteman's watermelon.' >>From what I gather is common among certain MVS languages, there is a Kaw cognate of "Long Knife," máNhiN ttáNga, referring specifically to Americans. It's said to be a reference to a cavalry sabre. -jm From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 10 16:44:18 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:44:18 -0700 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: <404ECEE6.5080300@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, "Alfred W. Tüting" wrote: > Yet, in today's Native literature, there's commonly(?) referred to a > different etymology: > was^iN' (fat not dried out, fat meat; pork) + > ic^u' (to take, take up anything; accept, receive) -> 'fat-taker' > (stealer of fat). > > What do you think about it? Is it (maybe biased) 'folk etymology'? > (phonologically, this derivation doesn't seem to fit too well.) Some of those who subscribe to this explanation are deeply loyal to it, and offer detailed justifications for it, but I'm pretty sure it's a folk etymology, i.e., a secondary reanalysis of a term with originally a different explanation. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Mar 10 17:45:40 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:45:40 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man" Message-ID: Alfred wrote: > One very often reads of wasicun <- wa-sicun [wa-s^i'c^uN] <- sicun (i.e. > in the sense given by Riggs). > Yet, in today's Native literature, there's commonly(?) referred to a > different etymology: > was^iN' (fat not dried out, fat meat; pork) + > ic^u' (to take, take up anything; accept, receive) -> 'fat-taker' > (stealer of fat). > > What do you think about it? Is it (maybe biased) 'folk etymology'? > (phonologically, this derivation doesn't seem to fit too well.) I heard this explanation too, in the Lakhota class I took about ten years ago. The instructor didn't seem to take it too seriously. I would agree with him and John that it is a biased folk etymology that post-dates the original meaning. Assuming that it is a jibe against whites for taking the Indians' land and resources, that complaint wouldn't have had any particular salience from the Dakotan point of view until well into the 19th century. They would have been aware of whites as mysterious foreign beings with remarkable equipment that they might obtain through trade all through the 18th century if not earlier. I think it's most likely that the term was established from the time that they first became aware of the existence of whites, I suppose late in the 17th century. Perhaps the Dakotanists could comment on this. Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 10 19:33:25 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:33:25 -0700 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > I would agree with him and John that it is a biased folk etymology that > post-dates the original meaning. Assuming that it is a jibe against > whites for taking the Indians' land and resources, ... I'd qualify this by saying that I don't know that bias or prejudice is really the issue here. Names are sometimes accidentally or even deliberately offensive. The purpose of etymological analysis is to determine meaning and perhaps to learn from it, not to rectify it, though I don't meant to accuse Rory of suggesting the latter. In any event, I'm not offended by fat-thief, which has a certain historical accuracy. I'm merely unconvinced. In any event what informs reanalysis is to a fair extent a simple desire to make sense of the term, though the possibility of punning cannot be ignored. Arbitrary meanings can't really be assigned to a reanalysis in the process of reanalysis, only meanings consistent with the actual form. Lakotas can only opt for fat-thief because the form bears a certain superficial resemblance to it. If it resembled 'sweet-smelling' they'd have to make the best of that. Of course, in the case of punning a certain level of scurilousness is generally desirable if it can be accomodated. The trick is to select a form amenable to the process and apply it successfully. It is true that a certain set of prejudices might determine the firmness with which this reanalysis was subsequently held to be true, but I'm not sure which of the people I've encountered on the net who prefer the fat-stealer analysis are actually Lakotas. I suspect some of them might be people of other ethnic origins who are committed the fat-thief analysis for philosophical reasons. As far as detecting folk etymologies is concerned, it's not always possible, but good indicators are evidence of reformulation to accomodate the analysis, e.g., was^i'c^uN => was^(iN)'=ic^u, or, when this has not occurred, a certain disconnect between the analysis and the material actually occurring, e.g., the problems with s^ahiyela as 'red-speaker' vs. its exact fit with 'little s^ahiya'. Of course, if a form that has been reshaped to fit a reanalysis and the reshaped form has evicted the unreshaped form, it is difficult to know what has happened. One might not even suspect a reanalysis, and if one did, one might not be able to build a good case for it. Solid ethmology usually rests on extensive historical attestation as well as solid lexical and morphological analsysis, and so it is sometimes a bit of an unavailable luxury with Native American languages (or reconstructed Eurasian languages). From rankin at ku.edu Wed Mar 10 19:48:31 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:48:31 -0600 Subject: was^icuN Message-ID: I haven't really looked into the possible etymology of the Dakotan term, but I guess my own linguist's folk etymology of the term was simply 'evil-doer'. I made this up without access to the information that there is a religious term that might serve as a source. I read the item on John's web site and pretty much agree with it. But that first impression of mine was based on the fact that the root *s^ik-E means 'bad' all across Siouan, although it is more prominent in some languages than others. It undergoes the fricative symbolism series and is found in various languages as s^ik- and xik- (I don't know about *sik-). And although apparently some Dakotan lexicographers translate ?uN as 'wear' in this context (the "they wear bad clothes" analysis), the real pan-Siouan verb for 'wear' is *?iN, not ?uN. *?uN is more specifically 'be, do' and it is found all over. I have discussed the distinction between 'do/be' and 'use' (to do with) on this list before and will not recapitulate that discussion here. But *?u:N clearly had the common Siouan meaning 'be', or, more likely 'do'. This verb is also pressed into service as an auxiliary of verbal aspect in a number of languages -- nearly always with some 'past' meaning, most often 'imperfective'. I mention it in my Quapaw sketch. The K-palatalization rule in Dakotan would give s^ic^- 'bad' in that language, and, compounded with ?uN 'do', would mean 'do evil'. Wa- nominalizes it to 'evil-doer'. And, bingo, a ready made (folk?) etymology. And if it is a relatively old term for evil-doers of various sorts, the constituent morphemes might well retain their etymological meanings whether or not they retain those meanings standing alone as s^ic^A and ?uN respectively. On a related topic, the term 'long knives' is also very common, and I used to think it referred to US Cavalry sabres. I seem to recollect, though, that Ives Goddard has researched this and found a much more specific explanation for the term (Kansa maNhiN-ttaNga). I'll check into this and see what I can find. The term "Little Worker" found, I think, in Hochank, wasn't it?, is interesting. I wonder how widespread it is. It is particularly interesting to me because the way you say Little Worker in Delaware is "Tonganoxie", the name of the town nearest to my home here in Kansas. I live on the former Delaware reservation in NE KS. Bob From wablenica at mail.ru Wed Mar 10 19:26:57 2004 From: wablenica at mail.ru (Wablenica) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 22:26:57 +0300 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Rory, Wednesday, March 10, 2004, 8:45:40 PM, you wrote: RML> Assuming RML> that it is a jibe against whites for taking the Indians' land and RML> resources, that complaint wouldn't have had any particular salience RML> from the Dakotan point of view until well into the 19th century. RML> They would have been aware of whites as mysterious foreign beings RML> with remarkable equipment that they might obtain through trade RML> all through the 18th century if not earlier. I think it's most RML> likely that the term was established from the time that they RML> first became aware of the existence of whites, I suppose late in RML> the 17th century. --I wonder what is Assinoboine/Stoney terms for "white man"? If they coincide with Dakota/Lakota was^icuN, that would be additional arguments against the "fat-takers". -- Best regards, Constantine Chmielnicki mailto:wablenica at mail.ru From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Mar 10 20:58:55 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:58:55 -0800 Subject: big knives Message-ID: > On a related topic, the term 'long knives' is also very common, and I used to > think it referred to US Cavalry sabres. I seem to recollect, though, that > Ives Goddard has researched this and found a much more specific explanation > for the term (Kansa maNhiN-ttaNga). I'll check into this and see what I can > find. The 'big knife' epithet for white men is all over the Algonquian languages of the Great Lakes and beyond. I actually wrote a paper on this long ago (but never published it). The crucial article that clarified a lot for me was the following: Woodward, Arthur. 1928. The "Long Knives". Indian Notes, Museum of the American Indian, Heye Foundation 5: 64-79. New York. Here's the relevant excerpt from my paper. I haven't looked at this paper for 6-7 years, so I make no statements about how much I agree with it now, but this provides the outline, at least, provided that Woodward's article is dependable. [if anyone's actually interested in seeing the Algonquian 'big knife' forms I have, let me know.] "At this point it is worth discussing where the 'big knife' term ultimately originated. In an article from 1928, Arthur Woodward persuasively makes a case that the 'big knife' metaphor has its origins in Iroquoian ritual speech. According to Woodward, 'Šall important men of another nation with whom [the Iroquois] came in contact were, for the sake of convenience and for the purpose of conferring a delicate honor upon them, each given an Iroquois name. If possible the name so conferred was a translation into one of the Iroquois dialects of the English or French name of the conferee.' (page 68) (end of Woodward's quote) "Thus, Woodward traces the origin of the big knife term to such a name bestowed on the governor of Virginia, Lord Howard of Effingham, in 1684. That year, when meeting with a confederation of the Iroquois at Albany, New York, Governor Howard was given the Mohawk name Assarigoa (phonemic a?share?kó:wa 'great knife', now 'war chief'; cf. à:share? 'knife'), which literally means 'big knife'. Apparently, this name arose from a misunderstanding through presumably Dutch interpreters, with the name Howard being misinterpreted as the Dutch word houwer, a knife or cutlass. Consequently, the entire line of governors of Virginia thereafter were known to the Iroquois as Assarigoa." "Evidently, the name spread widely from tribe to tribe. According to Woodward, the name was introduced in Shawnee, Delaware, and Ojibwe councils, in the process being extended from the Governor of Virginia, to the men of Virginia, to all English-speaking men of the American colonies, and, in some languages much later, all white men. By the late 1700's, there are numerous references to the term in written accounts." "According to Woodward, the metaphor 'big knife' is found in the languages of the other Five Nations Iroquois tribes, as well as Huron/Wyandot. To this day it is found in the Munsee dialect of Delaware, originally spoken in New Jersey and New York state, as (m)xwanshí:kan 'American', where (m)xw- = 'big' and -anshí:kan = 'knife'." "The big knife metaphor almost certainly entered Ojibwe via Ottawa, an Ojibwe dialect spoken around Lake Huron. By the last quarter of the 17th century, the Ottawa were the dominant group mediating both trade with the French and inter-Indian trade from the Iroquois country around Lake Ontario, and were in a position to introduce both trade goods and new vocabulary westward into the upper Great Lakes. Once borrowed into Ojibwe proper, probably at the French trading posts around the Mackinac straits in upper Michigan, the term spread rapidly, as these tribes quickly came to need a name for this new type of European they had to deal with. Given that Ojibwe contributed the 'big knife' term to Fox and Menominee in Wisconsin, it is very likely that Ojibwe was also responsible for passing the word on to the Siouan languages west of the Great Lakes. In the Siouan languages in this area, this metaphor is found in at least four Siouan languages directly west and southwest of the Great Lakes, the Winnebago or Hochunk language, spoken in Wisconsin, Lakota, originally spoken in Minnesota, Iowa, south of this, and further west still, Omaha. These are seen in Table 5. In 1809, the explorer John Bradbury also noted the name in Osage, and observed that "the Americans are called the big knives by the Indians of the Missouri". In his article, Woodward also cites forms of the name found in the Siouan languages Assiniboine and Mandan. I am not certain how far this name spread into the Plains outside Algonquian and Siouan, but Woodward does claims that it is found in the Caddoan languge Arikara." [end quote] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc Wed Mar 10 21:40:58 2004 From: Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc (Louis Garcia) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:40:58 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man" Message-ID: Hi gang; I hate to bud in here because you guys talk linguistics like a wohdkawakan (sacred language). The adverage non-lingueistic educated guy can't tell what you are saying half the time. Here is my two cents: Wasicun (wa= noun marker, sicun = a live spirit) A live spirit is a sicun, a dead spirit is nagi. Hence wanagi is a ghost. Wasisun is someone who has or is wonderous (steel knifes, guns, traps, etc). Wasin icu =(he takes the wet slippery fat) doesn't fit because the 'c' in icu is exploded. So the two words are pronounced differently. You don't explode the 'c' in Wasicun. Now on to Big Knifes -Minahanska. David Costa send a wonderful explanination for the term. One must also remember that various tribes from many lingustic families participated in the French and Indian War, Revolutionary War, and the War of 1812. The Dakota helped the British in the last two events. I believe the term big Knife was distributed amomg many tribes when they were allied during the wars. later, Louie From rankin at ku.edu Wed Mar 10 21:56:22 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:56:22 -0600 Subject: big knives Message-ID: Re Dave's last few lines. This term is also found in Kansa and Osage -- in fact throughout Dhegiha except for Quapaw, where I found no trace of it. Thanks for the clarification! Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Costa" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 2:58 PM Subject: big knives > On a related topic, the term 'long knives' is also very common, and I used to > think it referred to US Cavalry sabres. I seem to recollect, though, that > Ives Goddard has researched this and found a much more specific explanation > for the term (Kansa maNhiN-ttaNga). I'll check into this and see what I can > find. The 'big knife' epithet for white men is all over the Algonquian languages of the Great Lakes and beyond. I actually wrote a paper on this long ago (but never published it). The crucial article that clarified a lot for me was the following: Woodward, Arthur. 1928. The "Long Knives". Indian Notes, Museum of the American Indian, Heye Foundation 5: 64-79. New York. Here's the relevant excerpt from my paper. I haven't looked at this paper for 6-7 years, so I make no statements about how much I agree with it now, but this provides the outline, at least, provided that Woodward's article is dependable. [if anyone's actually interested in seeing the Algonquian 'big knife' forms I have, let me know.] "At this point it is worth discussing where the 'big knife' term ultimately originated. In an article from 1928, Arthur Woodward persuasively makes a case that the 'big knife' metaphor has its origins in Iroquoian ritual speech. According to Woodward, 'Sall important men of another nation with whom [the Iroquois] came in contact were, for the sake of convenience and for the purpose of conferring a delicate honor upon them, each given an Iroquois name. If possible the name so conferred was a translation into one of the Iroquois dialects of the English or French name of the conferee.' (page 68) (end of Woodward's quote) "Thus, Woodward traces the origin of the big knife term to such a name bestowed on the governor of Virginia, Lord Howard of Effingham, in 1684. That year, when meeting with a confederation of the Iroquois at Albany, New York, Governor Howard was given the Mohawk name Assarigoa (phonemic a?share?kó:wa 'great knife', now 'war chief'; cf. à:share? 'knife'), which literally means 'big knife'. Apparently, this name arose from a misunderstanding through presumably Dutch interpreters, with the name Howard being misinterpreted as the Dutch word houwer, a knife or cutlass. Consequently, the entire line of governors of Virginia thereafter were known to the Iroquois as Assarigoa." "Evidently, the name spread widely from tribe to tribe. According to Woodward, the name was introduced in Shawnee, Delaware, and Ojibwe councils, in the process being extended from the Governor of Virginia, to the men of Virginia, to all English-speaking men of the American colonies, and, in some languages much later, all white men. By the late 1700's, there are numerous references to the term in written accounts." "According to Woodward, the metaphor 'big knife' is found in the languages of the other Five Nations Iroquois tribes, as well as Huron/Wyandot. To this day it is found in the Munsee dialect of Delaware, originally spoken in New Jersey and New York state, as (m)xwanshí:kan 'American', where (m)xw- = 'big' and -anshí:kan = 'knife'." "The big knife metaphor almost certainly entered Ojibwe via Ottawa, an Ojibwe dialect spoken around Lake Huron. By the last quarter of the 17th century, the Ottawa were the dominant group mediating both trade with the French and inter-Indian trade from the Iroquois country around Lake Ontario, and were in a position to introduce both trade goods and new vocabulary westward into the upper Great Lakes. Once borrowed into Ojibwe proper, probably at the French trading posts around the Mackinac straits in upper Michigan, the term spread rapidly, as these tribes quickly came to need a name for this new type of European they had to deal with. Given that Ojibwe contributed the 'big knife' term to Fox and Menominee in Wisconsin, it is very likely that Ojibwe was also responsible for passing the word on to the Siouan languages west of the Great Lakes. In the Siouan languages in this area, this metaphor is found in at least four Siouan languages directly west and southwest of the Great Lakes, the Winnebago or Hochunk language, spoken in Wisconsin, Lakota, originally spoken in Minnesota, Iowa, south of this, and further west still, Omaha. These are seen in Table 5. In 1809, the explorer John Bradbury also noted the name in Osage, and observed that "the Americans are called the big knives by the Indians of the Missouri". In his article, Woodward also cites forms of the name found in the Siouan languages Assiniboine and Mandan. I am not certain how far this name spread into the Plains outside Algonquian and Siouan, but Woodward does claims that it is found in the Caddoan languge Arikara." [end quote] From rankin at ku.edu Wed Mar 10 22:00:10 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:00:10 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man" Message-ID: Butt in any time. This is useful to know, since many don't write aspiration in Dakotan and guys like me, who study other subgroups, don't always have a way of knowing which stops are "exploded" and which are plain. I'm happy with the 'live spirit' explanation, and that seems to be what Powers was referring to also. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Garcia" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 3:40 PM Subject: Re: Terms for "white man" > Hi gang; > I hate to bud in here because you guys talk linguistics like a wohdkawakan > (sacred language). The adverage non-lingueistic educated guy can't tell what > you are saying half the time. > Here is my two cents: > Wasicun (wa= noun marker, sicun = a live spirit) > A live spirit is a sicun, a dead spirit is nagi. Hence wanagi is a ghost. > Wasisun is someone who has or is wonderous (steel knifes, guns, traps, etc). > Wasin icu =(he takes the wet slippery fat) doesn't fit because the 'c' in > icu is exploded. So the two words are pronounced differently. You don't > explode the 'c' in Wasicun. > Now on to Big Knifes -Minahanska. > David Costa send a wonderful explanination for the term. > One must also remember that various tribes from many lingustic families > participated in the French and Indian War, Revolutionary War, and the War of > 1812. The Dakota helped the British in the last two events. I believe the > term big Knife was distributed amomg many tribes when they were allied > during the wars. > later, > Louie > > > From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Mar 11 01:05:27 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:05:27 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man" Message-ID: >> I would agree with him and John that it is a biased folk etymology that >> post-dates the original meaning. Assuming that it is a jibe against >> whites for taking the Indians' land and resources, ... > > I'd qualify this by saying that I don't know that bias or prejudice is > really the issue here. Names are sometimes accidentally or even > deliberately offensive. The purpose of etymological analysis is to > determine meaning and perhaps to learn from it, not to rectify it, though > I don't meant to accuse Rory of suggesting the latter. In any event, I'm > not offended by fat-thief, which has a certain historical accuracy. I'm > merely unconvinced. > > [...] John's points are well taken. I shouldn't have assumed this etymology necessarily reflected bias, or that he supposed that it did. If the original construction became unclear to later generations, then was^iN'-ic^hu', "takes-the-fat", may just have seemed to be the only possible interpretation. Rory From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Mar 11 01:26:05 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:26:05 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man"? Message-ID: Thanks for your coins, Tom! I'm left wondering about that [x]. Isn't the [x] in wana'xe, "ghost" or "spirit", the softer, voiced type: wana'g^e rather than wana'h^e ? And isn't wa'xe pronounced with the unvoiced [x], wa'h^e ? I know these are confused in our usual orthography, but our Omaha speakers still seem able to distinguish them. I'd certainly like to believe this interpretation, though. It would sure fit nicely with the Dakotan was^i'c^uN "ghost" etymology. Rory "Tom Leonard" t> cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: Terms for "white man"? owner-siouan at lists.c olorado.edu 03/09/2004 11:26 PM Please respond to siouan Thought I'd add my 2 cents on this one........ My dad, Joe Rush (Ponca), told me on many, many, occasions that "wa'xe" was an "abbreviation" of wana'xe (ghost or spirit). I've heard the same from many other Ponca elders. He said when Poncas first saw a white man they thought he was a ghost because of his pale color. I've noted some Omaha names that lend credence to this "abbreviation" (if you will).....Ma'chu Wa'xe...translated as "ghost bear". Might be folk etymology.....don't know.....but it seems consistent across the board with Ponca elders and some of the Omaha names that I've seen translated. For what it's worth, TML From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Mar 11 02:41:37 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:41:37 -0600 Subject: was^icuN Message-ID: Bob, I think your proposed etymology is way too fascinating to discard this easily. You have: * wa- s^ikE ?uN one-who evil practices ==> was^i'c^uN in Dakotan. Granted that the term was^i'c^uN is probably based directly on s^ic^uN', which Louie defines as a "live spirit" and John as "the immortal component of the soul", doesn't it seem likely that s^ic^uN' itself is originally a compound of *s^ikE + *?uN as you suggested? I'd be doubtful that a term presently glossed as 'evil' always had that meaning. In this case, I would guess that *s^ikE originally meant something like present day wakhaN' or xube', sacred, holy, mysterious. It would have been practiced by shamans, *s^ikE-?uN => s^ic^uN. Shamans doing their mysterious things, perhaps wearing masks so they wouldn't be personally recognized by the uninitiated, could be regarded as "live spirits", and possibly as returned ancestors, which could lead to the philosophical conception that the soul has the s^ic^uN' as its immortal component. But the practice of *s^ikE could take on a sinister hue if it were done selfishly. In this case, it would be what the Old Norse called seidhr, or witchcraft, magical knowledge and power that could be used to hurt one's enemies. Then the concept of *s^ikE would take on the sense of supernatural malevolence and mortal danger, perhaps during a period of witch lynching. When no one was left who dared to practise *s^ikE, the term would extend to cover evil generically, and shamans would devote themselves more righteously to being wakhaN' or xube' instead. Rory "R. Rankin" To: Sent by: cc: owner-siouan at lists.c Subject: Re: was^icuN olorado.edu 03/10/2004 01:48 PM Please respond to siouan I haven't really looked into the possible etymology of the Dakotan term, but I guess my own linguist's folk etymology of the term was simply 'evil-doer'. I made this up without access to the information that there is a religious term that might serve as a source. I read the item on John's web site and pretty much agree with it. But that first impression of mine was based on the fact that the root *s^ik-E means 'bad' all across Siouan, although it is more prominent in some languages than others. It undergoes the fricative symbolism series and is found in various languages as s^ik- and xik- (I don't know about *sik-). And although apparently some Dakotan lexicographers translate ?uN as 'wear' in this context (the "they wear bad clothes" analysis), the real pan-Siouan verb for 'wear' is *?iN, not ?uN. *?uN is more specifically 'be, do' and it is found all over. I have discussed the distinction between 'do/be' and 'use' (to do with) on this list before and will not recapitulate that discussion here. But *?u:N clearly had the common Siouan meaning 'be', or, more likely 'do'. This verb is also pressed into service as an auxiliary of verbal aspect in a number of languages -- nearly always with some 'past' meaning, most often 'imperfective'. I mention it in my Quapaw sketch. The K-palatalization rule in Dakotan would give s^ic^- 'bad' in that language, and, compounded with ?uN 'do', would mean 'do evil'. Wa- nominalizes it to 'evil-doer'. And, bingo, a ready made (folk?) etymology. And if it is a relatively old term for evil-doers of various sorts, the constituent morphemes might well retain their etymological meanings whether or not they retain those meanings standing alone as s^ic^A and ?uN respectively. On a related topic, the term 'long knives' is also very common, and I used to think it referred to US Cavalry sabres. I seem to recollect, though, that Ives Goddard has researched this and found a much more specific explanation for the term (Kansa maNhiN-ttaNga). I'll check into this and see what I can find. The term "Little Worker" found, I think, in Hochank, wasn't it?, is interesting. I wonder how widespread it is. It is particularly interesting to me because the way you say Little Worker in Delaware is "Tonganoxie", the name of the town nearest to my home here in Kansas. I live on the former Delaware reservation in NE KS. Bob From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Mar 11 08:01:08 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:01:08 +0000 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/3/04 5:45 pm, "Rory M Larson" wrote: > > > > > Alfred wrote: >> One very often reads of wasicun <- wa-sicun [wa-s^i'c^uN] <- sicun (i.e. >> in the sense given by Riggs). >> Yet, in today's Native literature, there's commonly(?) referred to a >> different etymology: >> was^iN' (fat not dried out, fat meat; pork) + >> ic^u' (to take, take up anything; accept, receive) -> 'fat-taker' >> (stealer of fat). >> >> What do you think about it? Is it (maybe biased) 'folk etymology'? >> (phonologically, this derivation doesn't seem to fit too well.) > > I heard this explanation too, in the Lakhota class I took about > ten years ago. The instructor didn't seem to take it too > seriously. I would agree with him and John that it is a biased > folk etymology that post-dates the original meaning. Assuming > that it is a jibe against whites for taking the Indians' land and > resources, that complaint wouldn't have had any particular salience > from the Dakotan point of view until well into the 19th century. > They would have been aware of whites as mysterious foreign beings > with remarkable equipment that they might obtain through trade > all through the 18th century if not earlier. I think it's most > likely that the term was established from the time that they > first became aware of the existence of whites, I suppose late in > the 17th century. > > Perhaps the Dakotanists could comment on this. > > Rory > > > I agree that the idea that white people, although obviously not spirits, may with their pale appearance have resembled them is probably the origin. Note that the Chinese (or was it the Japanese) used to refer to us as 'foreign devils' or so one reads. Also in Persia we were called cheshm zagh meaning 'blue/grey eyed' which alluded to the Jinn (Genies), who were also blue-grey eyed. Bruce From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Mar 11 08:04:22 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:04:22 +0000 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/3/04 7:33 pm, "Koontz John E" wrote: > On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: >> I would agree with him and John that it is a biased folk etymology that >> post-dates the original meaning. Assuming that it is a jibe against >> whites for taking the Indians' land and resources, ... > > when this has not > occurred, a certain disconnect between the analysis and the material > actually occurring, e.g., the problems with s^ahiyela as 'red-speaker' vs. > its exact fit with 'little s^ahiya'. Could S^ahiya not also be 'red speaker' (meaning possibly non-Siouan) or is there another known origin for it. Bruce > > > > From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Thu Mar 11 08:19:49 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:19:49 +0100 Subject: was^i'c^uN Message-ID: BTW, got somewhat puzzled so I checked the sources (Buechel and CULP) for _icu_ and both give the verb as [ic^u'] i.e. with c unaspirated. >I'd be doubtful that a term presently glossed as 'evil' always had that meaning. In this case, I would guess that *s^ikE originally meant something like present day wakhaN' or xube', sacred, holy, mysterious. It would have been practiced by shamans, *s^ikE-?uN => s^ic^uN. Shamans doing their mysterious things, perhaps wearing masks so they wouldn't be personally recognized by the uninitiated, could be regarded as "live spirits", and possibly as returned ancestors, which could lead to the philosophical conception that the soul has the s^ic^uN' as its immortal component. But the practice of *s^ikE could take on a sinister hue if it were done selfishly. In this case, it would be what the Old Norse called seidhr, or witchcraft, magical knowledge and power that could be used to hurt one's enemies. Then the concept of *s^ikE would take on the sense of supernatural malevolence and mortal danger, perhaps during a period of witch lynching. When no one was left who dared to practise *s^ikE, the term would extend to cover evil generically, and shamans would devote themselves more righteously to being wakhaN' or xube' instead. Rory<< I somehow like this idea - the more so as it was mine too ;-) Also cf. "Wasicun: Not a divinity in and of itself, and not precisely an animate spirit, wasicun is nevertheless an important concept. In general, it refers to anything hidden or mysterious, or the container that such a thing is held in. It often refers to the medicine bag borne by the Shaman, containing objects imbued with great power that he uses in his work. Such objects, together with the bag they are within, are thought to take on an independent existence in their own right, and thus must be carefully dealt with. The term can be applied to any of a wide variety of foci of mystery and power; one such application was to people of European descent when the Lakota first came in contact with them..." http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/pla/sdo/sdo54.htm http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/pla/sdo/sdo49.htm Alfred From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Mar 11 12:10:17 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 12:10:17 +0000 Subject: Active & stative verbs in biclausal sentences. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all A friend of mine is writing a book on contacts between Scotland and the American Indians. He located a letter from the Yorkshire Evening Post dated 2001 I think in which there is a facsimile of a letter from a Lakota with the Buffalo Bill Outfit to his father in America. It is in the old copper plate cursive type handwriting and I am not always clear on the actual letters but seems to be like this, with his lines and spaces, with dubious items in brackets. He uses dots over s (and n) etc which I here mark with ^: Ito ate le anpetu kin wowape cicu kte lo na (eya) mis^ taku na ota-aciciya un^ kte s^ni tka itoptelye la wocici ya kin kte lo (letuya) waon tka taku s^ica wa ons^niyelo lila tanyan waon welo iho hecetu we lo I take this to be Ito ate le anpetu kin wowapi cic'u kte lo na (eya) mis^ takuna ota aciciya uN kte s^ni tka itoptelyela wociciyakin kte lo. Letuya wauN tka taku s^ica wauN s^ni yelo. Lila taNyaN wauN welo. Iho hecetu welo. Does anyone have any comments. I wish I could send it as a photocopy. The sentence that floors me is takuna ota aciciya uN kte s^ni tka, also the use of itoptelyela which I suppose is an alternative to optoptelya meaning 'for a while' Any ideas Bruce From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Thu Mar 11 19:17:41 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 20:17:41 +0100 Subject: was^i'c^uN Message-ID: >I agree that the idea that white people, although obviously not spirits, may with their pale appearance have resembled them is probably the origin. Note that the Chinese (or was it the Japanese) used to refer to us as 'foreign devils' or so one reads. Also in Persia we were called cheshm zagh meaning 'blue/grey eyed' which alluded to the Jinn (Genies), who were also blue-grey eyed. Bruce<< In Chinese, there are still these derogatory (however historical) terms for foreigners (western people): gui3zi5 (devil) fan1gui3 (foreign devil) yang2gui3(zi5) (foreign/oversea devil) hong2mao2 (lit. 'redhair') In reference to the colour of eyes, there is: bi4yan3hu2 (green-eyed foreigner) with _hu2_ also meaning 'recklessly/irrelevantly', 'foreign' (hu2shuo1 - hu-speech -> nonsense), also a proper name, referring to the Hu(ren) - non-Han peoples in the northwest of China. As for _wasicun_, cf. the Meso- and South American Native cultures' attitude toward the white man. Alfred From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Mar 12 01:38:14 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 18:38:14 -0700 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Bruce Ingham wrote: > Could S^ahiya not also be 'red speaker' (meaning possibly non-Siouan) or is > there another known origin for it. I believe the h is extra if the form is s^a + iye. The syntax is also different from iyeska, for example, though perhaps either order would be acceptable. It makes more sense to me to see s^ahi'ya as s^ahi' + (y)a, where -(y)a is the "independent stem" forming suffix (absolute marker) that occurs in some Dakotan stems ending in high vowels, e.g., heya, wiNyaN, maxpiya, and so on. The same formant occurs with such stems in some cases before some of the short or enclitic postpositions, like -ta (e.g., with thiyata). The s^ahi' form for 'Cree' is also pretty well attested in various other languages, though not, apparently, in Santee or Teton. This -ya is -ye in e-grade contexts so when =la follows you get s^ahi'yela, cf. sa'pa, sa'pela, and so on. From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Fri Mar 12 03:03:01 2004 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 21:03:01 -0600 Subject: Siouan & Caddoan Languages Conference update Message-ID: Just a quick update on the conference, while I'm on spring break and have time to think! I assume you've already got your calendars marked! **Conference Dates: June 11-13 (we'll probably have a little get-together on the 10th, so do come early!) **Title due date: May 1 An abstract along with your title would be great. Below is a little more detail on practical matters like housing and how to get to Wayne. This should be up on the SSILA website soon (Thanks, Ardis!). Please feel free to post this information (and/or general call for papers and pointer to the website) to other lists, newsletters, etc. Has anyone seen an announcement on the Linguist List? I sent one in a while back, but never saw it -- may have deleted it by mistake among the daily flood of spam??? Best, Catherine ----------------------------------------------- 24th Annual Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference LOCATION: Wayne State College, Wayne, NE. Wayne is located in the Northeast corner of Nebraska, 40 miles west of Sioux City Iowa and about 100 miles north of both Omaha and Lincoln, at the intersection of highways 35 and 15. There is no public transportation to Wayne, so the easiest way to get here is by car. Nearest airports: Sioux City or Omaha. If you are flying in, let us know your flight information and we'll try to organize airport pickups or rental-car sharing. Wayne State College is located at the north end of town. Take Main St. (=highway 35) north through town; the campus is between 10th and 12th St, on the east side of Main St. Conference sessions will be in the Student Center. It's a small town and a small campus -- just ask anyone for directions. LODGING: Two blocks of rooms have been reserved: (1) Super 8 Motel (402-375-4898) $42/single, $45 double. Mention group confirmation number G-00007-66; call by May 27 to get group rate. Located about 8 blocks from the conference site, at 610 Tomar Dr. (2) Dormitory accomodations on the WSC Campus $21.50/single, $14.25 per person/double Conveniently next door to the conference site .. but problably not airconditioned, and definitely not luxurious. Limited number of rooms. Please make reservations EARLY! Contact Derek Anderson, housing supervisor at 402-375-7322, or the conference organizer. There are two other motels in Wayne: K-D Inn Motel 402-375-1770 Sports Club Motel 402-375-4222 ABSTRACT/TITLE DEADLINE: May 1 If you wish to be on the program, send the title of your proposed paper or presentation and any special requests (e.g. for equipment or for a longer time slot than 30 minutes) by May 1. A brief abstract or description of your topic would be appreciated. REGISTRATION Registration is free and drop-ins are welcome. However, we would appreciate being informed if you plan to attend the conference, even if you are not presenting a paper, to know how many people to expect. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sat Mar 13 21:09:32 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 15:09:32 -0600 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms Message-ID: Does anyone know the origin of the name Tywappety (Bottoms), given a town on the Mississippi in SE Missouri in 1797? When the village was founded c1790, it was called Ze-wa-pe-ta, which looks quite a bit more Siouan. It was apparently (the Web link is now dead) shown on an 1824 map as Tywapatia. Thanks for any hints, Alan From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Mar 14 14:49:05 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 09:49:05 -0500 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms In-Reply-To: <4053788C.4010405@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Alan, Just a couple of observations. Given the date that "Ze-wa-pe-ta" was transcribed, it is most likely a word written down by an English speaker. Therefore, the final -a of "Za-wa-pe-ta" is probably /i/. As you probably know, English speakers commonly heard native /i/ as /e/ and then wrote the latter vowel as an a in keeping with the pronunciation of the first letter of the alphabet. This would be why "Tywappety" has a y at the end. In other words, there *is* a neat correspondence between, at least, the end of those two words. In this connection, the penultimate -e- in both terms is probably /i/, reflecting the pronunciation of E is in the English alphabet. So, the last three syllables of this place name are probably /-wa(a)pi(i)ti(i)/. The discrepancy between the initial T- of "Tywappety" and the initial Z- of "Ze-wa-pe-ta" is bizarre and suggests a scribal error. Michael On Sat, 13 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > Does anyone know the origin of the name Tywappety (Bottoms), given a > town on the Mississippi in SE Missouri in 1797? When the village was > founded c1790, it was called Ze-wa-pe-ta, which looks quite a bit more > Siouan. It was apparently (the Web link is now dead) shown on an 1824 > map as Tywapatia. > > Thanks for any hints, > > Alan > > > From napshawin at msn.com Sun Mar 14 15:14:55 2004 From: napshawin at msn.com (CATCHES VIOLET) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 09:14:55 -0600 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms Message-ID: I am curious about this one. Is there any yellowish ground around it? Zee-Owapi-Ekta, any Siouan languages have this habit of short cutting, oops, maybe I should use linguistic terminology...but anyway, it looks like ziwapita, there at that place where the yellow paint can be found. UNSHIKICHILA PI! napsha miye "We come to this world with nothing, we leave with nothing, live your life in a manner that shows compassion, mercy and love...wa-unshila pi!" an ancient Lakxota grandmother >From: Michael Mccafferty >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: Siouan >Subject: Re: Tywappity Bottoms >Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 09:49:05 -0500 (EST) > >Alan, >Just a couple of observations. > >Given the date that "Ze-wa-pe-ta" was transcribed, it is most likely a >word written down by an English speaker. Therefore, the final -a of >"Za-wa-pe-ta" is probably /i/. As you probably know, English speakers >commonly heard native /i/ as /e/ and then wrote the latter vowel as an a >in keeping with the pronunciation of the first letter of the alphabet. >This would be why "Tywappety" has a y at the end. In other words, there >*is* a neat correspondence between, at least, the end of those two words. > >In this connection, the penultimate -e- in both terms is probably /i/, >reflecting the pronunciation of E is in the English alphabet. >So, the last three syllables of this place name are probably >/-wa(a)pi(i)ti(i)/. > >The discrepancy between the initial T- of "Tywappety" and the initial Z- >of "Ze-wa-pe-ta" is bizarre and suggests a scribal error. > >Michael > >On Sat, 13 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > > > Does anyone know the origin of the name Tywappety (Bottoms), given a > > town on the Mississippi in SE Missouri in 1797? When the village was > > founded c1790, it was called Ze-wa-pe-ta, which looks quite a bit more > > Siouan. It was apparently (the Web link is now dead) shown on an 1824 > > map as Tywapatia. > > > > Thanks for any hints, > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Create a Job Alert on MSN Careers and enter for a chance to win $1000! http://msn.careerbuilder.com/promo/kaday.htm?siteid=CBMSN_1K&sc_extcmp=JS_JASweep_MSNHotm2 From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Mar 14 15:26:37 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 09:26:37 -0600 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Michael. > Given the date that "Ze-wa-pe-ta" was transcribed, it is most likely a > word written down by an English speaker. Therefore, the final -a of > "Za-wa-pe-ta" is probably /i/. As you probably know, English speakers > commonly heard native /i/ as /e/ and then wrote the latter vowel as an a > in keeping with the pronunciation of the first letter of the alphabet. > This would be why "Tywappety" has a y at the end. In other words, there > *is* a neat correspondence between, at least, the end of those two words. > > In this connection, the penultimate -e- in both terms is probably /i/, > reflecting the pronunciation of E is in the English alphabet. > So, the last three syllables of this place name are probably > /-wa(a)pi(i)ti(i)/. Which suggests the Algonquian 'white-rump' word for 'elk'. Shawnee wa:piti, would be a good candidate, given their occupation of SE Missouri at about the time Tywappity Bottoms was settled by Euro-Americans. But, about the first syllable... Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Mar 14 15:55:39 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 09:55:39 -0600 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I am curious about this one. Is there any yellowish ground around it? > Zee-Owapi-Ekta, any Siouan languages have this habit of short cutting, > oops, maybe I should use linguistic terminology...but anyway, it looks > like ziwapita, there at that place where the yellow paint can be found. Good suggestion, Violet. I noticed Sioux zi- 'yellow' but didn't think about ocher. I don't have a clue whether there's any in that area. Does anyone know if there's a Dhegiha 'yellow' word that fits? Or where central Mississippi valley ocher came from? Incidentally, Riggs gives makásaN 'whitish or yellowish clay' (maka 'earth' + saN 'whitish or yellowish'), makáto 'blue earth' (whence the name of Mankato MN), and makáwase 'red earth used as paint'. As in many Indian languages, the word for red clay as paint (wasé in Sioux) came to be applied also to the traders' imported pigment, vermilion. Thanks, Alan From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Mar 14 15:54:46 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 10:54:46 -0500 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms In-Reply-To: <405479AD.8050502@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: I'm concerned that we're getting somewhat far afield in the analysis of this name, but let me just add something that seems somewhat relevant. The Miami-Illinois initial /oonsaa-/ 'yellow' was originally recorded by the French without the first syllable in the name for a stream in Indiana. In other words, the native name for the stream is /oonsaalamooni/ but the first known recording of this hydronym by the French, from the mid-1700s, is < Salamani >. As you can see the /oon-/ was left off. This is not expected. I should add that would not be Miami-Illinois, however, since "wapiti" is not the term in that language for 'elk'. In Miami-Illinois word for 'elk' is /mih$iiweewa/ (older form) and /mih$iiwia/ (later form). Perhaps your place name, Alan, is Algonquian, though, and represents another instance where an European recorder lopped off the front end of "yellow". Michael On Sun, 14 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > Thanks, Michael. > > > Given the date that "Ze-wa-pe-ta" was transcribed, it is most likely a > > word written down by an English speaker. Therefore, the final -a of > > "Za-wa-pe-ta" is probably /i/. As you probably know, English speakers > > commonly heard native /i/ as /e/ and then wrote the latter vowel as an a > > in keeping with the pronunciation of the first letter of the alphabet. > > This would be why "Tywappety" has a y at the end. In other words, there > > *is* a neat correspondence between, at least, the end of those two words. > > > > In this connection, the penultimate -e- in both terms is probably /i/, > > reflecting the pronunciation of E is in the English alphabet. > > So, the last three syllables of this place name are probably > > /-wa(a)pi(i)ti(i)/. > > Which suggests the Algonquian 'white-rump' word for 'elk'. Shawnee > wa:piti, would be a good candidate, given their occupation of SE > Missouri at about the time Tywappity Bottoms was settled by > Euro-Americans. But, about the first syllable... > > Alan > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Mar 14 16:08:58 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 11:08:58 -0500 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms In-Reply-To: <405479AD.8050502@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: I guess I should've added the translation for /oonsaalamooni/, the stream known today as the Salamonie. Maybe I didn't, because it's a little tricky. The term literally means 'yellow ocher'. Also known in English as limonite, yellow ocher is a mixture of hydrated iron oxide minerals, FeO(OH).nH20, that occurs near oxidized iron deposits, or other ore deposits, as well as in sedimentary beds. Aboriginally, yellow ocher was ground into a powder and used as a source of yellow paint. Linguistically speaking, the term is composed of, as noted, the initial /oonsaa-/ 'yellow, brown' and the independent noun /alamooni/, which by itself is the Miami-Illinois term for the mineral hematite, Fe2O3, otherwise known as red ocher and commonly glossed "vermillion" in the historical French sources. The historical record, however, does not show 'yellow ocher' as an English translation for recordings of Miami-Illinois /oonsaalamooni/. This native language term was not recorded, however, until quite late and by the time it was written down, it was apparently used only as the name for bloodroot (Sanguinaria canadensis), the rhizomes of which were an important botanical source of a red juice producing a yellowish stain that was also used by local native peoples as paint. Ives Goddard's discussion of yellow ocher suggests, at least to me, that Miami-Illinois /oosaalamooni/ as the name for the bloodroot plant might be a secondary attribution based on this plants' capacity to produce a yellowish paint that resembled the paint originally made from yellow ocher. (Goddard's discussion is in Ives Goddard, "Contractions in Fox (Meskwaki)," Proceedings of the 32nd Algonquian Conference, 222-223.) Michael On Sun, 14 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > Thanks, Michael. > > > Given the date that "Ze-wa-pe-ta" was transcribed, it is most likely a > > word written down by an English speaker. Therefore, the final -a of > > "Za-wa-pe-ta" is probably /i/. As you probably know, English speakers > > commonly heard native /i/ as /e/ and then wrote the latter vowel as an a > > in keeping with the pronunciation of the first letter of the alphabet. > > This would be why "Tywappety" has a y at the end. In other words, there > > *is* a neat correspondence between, at least, the end of those two words. > > > > In this connection, the penultimate -e- in both terms is probably /i/, > > reflecting the pronunciation of E is in the English alphabet. > > So, the last three syllables of this place name are probably > > /-wa(a)pi(i)ti(i)/. > > Which suggests the Algonquian 'white-rump' word for 'elk'. Shawnee > wa:piti, would be a good candidate, given their occupation of SE > Missouri at about the time Tywappity Bottoms was settled by > Euro-Americans. But, about the first syllable... > > Alan > > > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sun Mar 14 16:11:39 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:11:39 -0800 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms Message-ID: > I should add that would not be Miami-Illinois, > however, since "wapiti" is not the term in that language for 'elk'. In > Miami-Illinois word for 'elk' is /mih$iiweewa/ (older form) and > /mih$iiwia/ (later form). Tho it *is* the Miami-Illinois term for the pronghorn antelope. Two variants are attested: /waapitia/ and /waapitiaata/. But the first syllable is STILL a problem. Dave C From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Mar 14 16:21:31 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 11:21:31 -0500 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, I'm sorry, Dave. I see what you mean about the first syllable problem--the Ty-/Ze affair. Michael On Sun, 14 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > > > I should add that would not be Miami-Illinois, > > however, since "wapiti" is not the term in that language for 'elk'. In > > Miami-Illinois word for 'elk' is /mih$iiweewa/ (older form) and > > /mih$iiwia/ (later form). > > Tho it *is* the Miami-Illinois term for the pronghorn antelope. Two variants > are attested: /waapitia/ and /waapitiaata/. > > But the first syllable is STILL a problem. > > Dave C > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Mar 14 16:18:52 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 11:18:52 -0500 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > > > I should add that would not be Miami-Illinois, > > however, since "wapiti" is not the term in that language for 'elk'. In > > Miami-Illinois word for 'elk' is /mih$iiweewa/ (older form) and > > /mih$iiwia/ (later form). > > Tho it *is* the Miami-Illinois term for the pronghorn antelope. Two variants > are attested: /waapitia/ and /waapitiaata/. :-) !! But I wonder how old the term for pronghorn antelope is. Do we have it for the 18th-century French sources, or did it come into the language in these people's transmississippian times. > > But the first syllable is STILL a problem. > Yeah, but as noted, there is good evidence for the loss of the initial syllable of 'yellow'. Michael > Dave C > > > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sun Mar 14 16:28:11 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:28:11 -0800 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms Message-ID: So far I only have it in Gatschet's and Dunn's notes from the late 1800's. Miami-Illinois speakers might not have known about the animal until they went to Kansas and Oklahoma. Dave >> Tho it *is* the Miami-Illinois term for the pronghorn antelope. Two variants >> are attested: /waapitia/ and /waapitiaata/. > :-) !! > But I wonder how old the term for pronghorn antelope is. Do we have it for the > 18th-century French sources, or did it come into the language in these > people's transmississippian times. From rankin at ku.edu Sun Mar 14 16:43:06 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 10:43:06 -0600 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms Message-ID: > > I am curious about this one. Is there any yellowish ground around it? > > Zee-Owapi-Ekta, any Siouan languages have this habit of short cutting, > > oops, maybe I should use linguistic terminology...but anyway, it looks > > like ziwapita, there at that place where the yellow paint can be found. > > Good suggestion, Violet. I noticed Sioux zi- 'yellow' but didn't think > about ocher. I don't have a clue whether there's any in that area. Does > anyone know if there's a Dhegiha 'yellow' word that fits? Or where > central Mississippi valley ocher came from? The same ZI is 'yellow' in every Mississippi Valley Siouan language except Ioway-Otoe-Missouria where it's DHI. Ocher isn't something I know much about, at least right now. Sometimes CV color terms have the -hV augment, where the V is a copy of the first V in the word, but the root is without the augment. tto ttoho 'grue' zi zihi 'yellow' saN saNhaN 'off-white' Bob From rankin at ku.edu Sun Mar 14 16:51:40 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 10:51:40 -0600 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms Message-ID: > I see what you mean about the first syllable problem--the Ty-/Ze affair. Don't forget that for speakers of more Southern English the letter "y" could be used for the low-central vowel /a/, since "y" isn't a diphthong, but rather [a:] in those areas, e.g., "fire" is pronounced [fa:r]. Then there's the possibility that someone knew a little German or other European language where "z" was pronounced [ts]. Bob From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Mar 14 17:28:37 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 11:28:37 -0600 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms In-Reply-To: <006301c409e4$b2e1ea40$08b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: > Don't forget that for speakers of more Southern English the letter "y" could be > used for the low-central vowel /a/, since "y" isn't a diphthong, but rather [a:] > in those areas, e.g., "fire" is pronounced [fa:r]. My work on Lewis and Clark shows no signs of [ai] > [a] in the journals (1803-06). Evidence for the "Southern Shift" (that also produced changes like [ei] > [ai]) really starts to show up only late in the 19c. (It's surprising that the phonetic feature that best defines the modern Southern dialect-area is of such recent development.) Alan From rankin at ku.edu Sun Mar 14 20:29:48 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 14:29:48 -0600 Subject: term for whiteman, evil, etc. Message-ID: The Dakotan verb $i'ca 'bad' has the following cognates in the other languages: Hidatsa i$ihe 'spoil sthg, caus.' Lakota $i'ca 'bad' Chiwere sik ~ $ik 'incredible' (interject.) Otoe irosi'ge 'ashamed' Winneb. $iik$i'k 'bad, spoiled of food' Dheg. $i:ke 'bad, evil, injury' Ofo ci:fhahi 'dangerous' Tutelo isi: ~ $ik 'evil' (in word for 'devil') The X grade of fricative symbolism is found in: Mandan xik- 'bad' Biloxi xiya' 'bad, cunning' I've used $ for S-hacek and c for C-hacek here. : is V length and ' is accent. So semantically it looks as if the reconstructible meaning is close to the current meaning in the various languages. 'Bad' and 'spoiled' are the main features that are repeated. I'm still not taking a position on the Dakotan term for Whites though. Bob From FurbeeL at missouri.edu Mon Mar 15 19:45:21 2004 From: FurbeeL at missouri.edu (Louanna Furbee) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 13:45:21 -0600 Subject: Job posting. In-Reply-To: <005b01c3daed$205f0bb0$34430945@JIMM> Message-ID: >Back from Chiapas. Retired from teaching, but not from the >profession. Louanna >She's in Chiapas for 3 months. Otherwise, she's retired. > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: +ACI-R. Rankin+ACI- +ADw-rankin+AEA-ku.edu+AD4- >To: +ADw-siouan+AEA-lists.colorado.edu+AD4- >Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 3:10 PM >Subject: Job posting. > > >+AD4- I note in the Anthropological Newsletter that the University >of Missouri, >+AD4- Columbia is advertising a full-time, tenure track position in >anthropological >+AD4- linguistics with a specialty in historical linguistics and >related areas. >This >+AD4- would seem to be tailor-made for some of the participants on this list. >+AD4- >+AD4- Is Louanna retiring? >+AD4- >+AD4- Bob -- Prof. N. Louanna Furbee Department of Anthropology 107 Swallow Hall University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65211 USA Telephones: 573/882-9408 (office) 573/882-4731 (department) 573/446-0932 (home) 573/884-5450 (fax) E-mail: FurbeeL at missouri.edu From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 16 07:26:18 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 00:26:18 -0700 Subject: term for whiteman, evil, etc. In-Reply-To: <001f01c40a03$2b33c810$0ab5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: >>From Nasatir, A.P. 1990. Before Lewis and Clark: Documents Illustrating the History of the Missouri, 1785-1804, ... I.296 This is from a series of observations by Jean Baptiste Trudeau or Truteau, a fur trader, some of which seem to be extremely valuable, and others perhaps a little bizarre, illustrative of the difference in the moral outlook of a fur trader and a modern reader, if nothing else. However, of interest in the context: "... the Indians of this country [the lower and middle reaches of the Missouri] do not know any distinction between the French, Spanish, English, etc., calling them all indifferently White Men or Spirits." Unfortunately he doesn't specify the terms, but his assertion is consistent with the probable etymologies of various of the terms we've been seeing, at last as far as "Spirit" is concerned. He goes on to say, "It is said that formerly the Ricara nation held us in such great veneration that they gave us a sort of worship, having certain festivals at which they offered us the choicest morsels, and even threw into the river robes which had been dyed and dressed skins decorated with feathers as a sacrifice to the White Man.* "I have been assured that the Cheyennes and other more distant nations still practice this custom; while the Ricaras, through having for so many years associated with the Sioux and Panis Mahas have changed the ideas which they have inherited from their ancestors in regard to the White Man whom they regarded as divinities. Now they consider us only in so far as we supply them with the merchandise which we bring, and which is so necessary to them ..." *Marginal notation: "Several old people of this tribe have told me this as a fact." This was in 1795. I don't know if there are any other references to this "cargo cult" phase in relations, and I'd have to say that it's only exposure to non-technical descriptions of the later "cargo cult" in the South Pacific that makes story more or less credible to me. Truteau seems to rather regret the passing of this phase, which it seems he never encountered directly. He does devote a great deal of space to reporting the past and present amenability of the various groups he met to the bargaining paradigm and their gullibility in terms of it, their propensity to arbitrary pricing, their inclination to manipulate upstream trade, etc. "Gentle" groups understood bargaining and settled for exchange rates that made the trade profitable. Others did not and might progress to expropriation or personal violence if denied a particular price, or if refused a trade for personal goods that were not for sale. Of course, trade existed before the fur trade in pre-contact times, and is attested archaeologically, but the details were possibly different, and the rules and rates of exchange clear to both sides. In any event there are definitely references in the literature on the Missouri fur trade to attempts by various groups, the Kansas, Omahas, Arikaras and Dakotas being particularly notorious at various points, to control trading with upriver or competing groups. The trade was a serious matter for both sides, with both sides having a certain desperation for what the other could offer, and exploring all possible ways of manipulating the mysterious others into cooperating. Perhaps there was a phase in which Europeans were regarded as spirits whose benificence could be manipulated by spiritual paradigms, and the nomenclature of this period leaves traces, even though other, more effective paradigms were adopted subsequently. And also, one might speculate, as some of the disadvantages of the incursion of Europeans became more appallingly obvious. From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Tue Mar 16 12:45:04 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 12:45:04 +0000 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/3/04 1:38 am, "Koontz John E" wrote: > On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Bruce Ingham wrote: >> Could S^ahiya not also be 'red speaker' (meaning possibly non-Siouan) or is >> there another known origin for it. > > I believe the h is extra if the form is s^a + iye. The syntax is also > different from iyeska, for example, though perhaps either order would be > acceptable. It makes more sense to me to see s^ahi'ya as s^ahi' + (y)a, > where -(y)a is the "independent stem" forming suffix (absolute marker) > that occurs in some Dakotan stems ending in high vowels, e.g., heya, > wiNyaN, maxpiya, and so on. The same formant occurs with such stems in > some cases before some of the short or enclitic postpositions, like -ta > (e.g., with thiyata). The s^ahi' form for 'Cree' is also pretty well > attested in various other languages, though not, apparently, in Santee or > Teton. This -ya is -ye in e-grade contexts so when =la follows you get > s^ahi'yela, cf. sa'pa, sa'pela, and so on. > > Does it however still refer to 'speaking red' or is it unanalyzable? Bruce From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 16 16:49:09 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 09:49:09 -0700 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Mar 2004, Bruce Ingham wrote: > Does it however still refer to 'speaking red' or is it unanalyzable? Historically s^ahi'yela 'Cheyenne' seems to be 'little Cree', i.e., s^ahi'ya (not current in Santee or Teton as far as I know) referred to the Cree. I suppose one would have to call the longer form unanalyzable in terms of modern Dakotan. From mary.marino at usask.ca Tue Mar 16 18:13:53 2004 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Mary Marino) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 12:13:53 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: S^ahiya is current among Canadian Dakota speakers for 'Cree'. I've never recorded S^ahiyena. Mary At 09:49 AM 3/16/2004 -0700, you wrote: >On Tue, 16 Mar 2004, Bruce Ingham wrote: > > Does it however still refer to 'speaking red' or is it unanalyzable? > >Historically s^ahi'yela 'Cheyenne' seems to be 'little Cree', i.e., >s^ahi'ya (not current in Santee or Teton as far as I know) referred to the >Cree. I suppose one would have to call the longer form unanalyzable in >terms of modern Dakotan. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Mar 16 18:57:25 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 19:57:25 +0100 Subject: Terms for "white man" Message-ID: >John: Historically s^ahi'yela 'Cheyenne' seems to be 'little Cree', i.e., s^ahi'ya (not current in Santee or Teton as far as I know) referred to the Cree. I suppose one would have to call the longer form unanalyzable in terms of modern Dakotan.<< These terms' meaning seem to be a bit vague, as Buechel only gives _S^ahi'yela_ (without question mark!), as "The Cheyenne Indians", whereas _S^ahi'ya_ somewhat fuzzy as "a tribe of western Indians". He also has the term "Rabbit Men" mastincala wicasa [Mas^tiN'c^ala Wic^ha's^a] as maybe referring to the Cree ("The Cree Indians ???") Alfred From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 16 19:43:59 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 12:43:59 -0700 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040316121133.01487c30@sask.usask.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Mar 2004, Mary Marino wrote: > S^ahiya is current among Canadian Dakota speakers for 'Cree'. I've never > recorded S^ahiyena. Wow! That's fantastic! Previously I'd only seen it mentioned in old sources as the Assiniboine name for the "Knisteneaux," and in Hidatsa, for example, there is s^ahi' 'Cree'. In Santee and Teton the usual term is 'Rabbit People.' From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 16 19:45:36 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 12:45:36 -0700 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: <40574E15.3010404@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Mar 2004, "Alfred W. Tüting" wrote: > These terms' meaning seem to be a bit vague, as Buechel only gives > > _S^ahi'yela_ > > (without question mark!), as "The Cheyenne Indians", whereas > > _S^ahi'ya_ > > somewhat fuzzy as "a tribe of western Indians". I'd forgotten that the term was included in Buechel with no clear reference. From shanwest at uvic.ca Wed Mar 17 07:46:08 2004 From: shanwest at uvic.ca (Shannon West) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 23:46:08 -0800 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: >On Tue, 16 Mar 2004, Mary Marino wrote: > > >>S^ahiya is current among Canadian Dakota speakers for 'Cree'. I've never >>recorded S^ahiyena. >> >> > >Wow! That's fantastic! Previously I'd only seen it mentioned in old >sources as the Assiniboine name for the "Knisteneaux," and in Hidatsa, for >example, there is s^ahi' 'Cree'. In Santee and Teton the usual term is >'Rabbit People.' > > Oh nifty! There's a place in central Saskatchewan called "Kinistino". I never made the connection before. And I've seen S^ahiya in my notes from Assiniboine class, but I honestly don't remember her saying it. I'm sure it referred to the Cree though. Shannon From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 17 16:31:32 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 09:31:32 -0700 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: <40580240.1050405@uvic.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Mar 2004, Shannon West wrote: > >Wow! That's fantastic! Previously I'd only seen it mentioned in old > >sources as the Assiniboine name for the "Knisteneaux," ... > Oh nifty! There's a place in central Saskatchewan called "Kinistino". I never > made the connection before. You also see things on the order of Cristeneaux wandering toward Christianeaux. I'm not sure what the origin of the term is. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Mar 17 17:11:15 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:11:15 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > You also see things on the order of Cristeneaux wandering toward > Christianeaux. I'm not sure what the origin of the term is. There are dozens of variants: [krVst-] (1640-), [kVlist-] (1658-), [kVnist-] (1672-) Cree is probably primarily < Canadian Fr. Cris < Kiristinous, Christinaux, but perhaps also in part directly < Eng. Cristeens, Christianaux. Both the Fr. and the Eng. are < Ojibway (17c., Algonquin dialect) kiris^tino; see *KENISTENO. [based on Hdbk. N. Amer. Indians VI. (1981) 268/2 and on email from Dave Pentland 1999] Alan From rankin at ku.edu Wed Mar 17 17:35:02 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:35:02 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man" Message-ID: Might have something to do with the fact that Cree, like Siouan, has the [dh, n, r, l, y] variation for its dental approximant phoneme. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Alan Hartley [mailto:ahartley at d.umn.edu] Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 11:11 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Terms for "white man" > You also see things on the order of Cristeneaux wandering toward > Christianeaux. I'm not sure what the origin of the term is. There are dozens of variants: [krVst-] (1640-), [kVlist-] (1658-), [kVnist-] (1672-) Cree is probably primarily < Canadian Fr. Cris < Kiristinous, Christinaux, but perhaps also in part directly < Eng. Cristeens, Christianaux. Both the Fr. and the Eng. are < Ojibway (17c., Algonquin dialect) kiris^tino; see *KENISTENO. [based on Hdbk. N. Amer. Indians VI. (1981) 268/2 and on email from Dave Pentland 1999] Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Mar 17 17:55:09 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:55:09 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D01233A30@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: There were Ojibway dialects at various times and places with reflexes r, l, and n for Proto-Algonquian l; it's n in modern O.) Alan > Might have something to do with the fact that Cree, like Siouan, has the > [dh, n, r, l, y] variation for its dental approximant phoneme. > > Bob From alber033 at tc.umn.edu Wed Mar 17 18:47:46 2004 From: alber033 at tc.umn.edu (Patricia Albers) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:47:46 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: <40580240.1050405@uvic.ca> Message-ID: In the late 1960s and early 1970s, the Dakotas at Spirit Lake used S'ahiya for Plains Cree and Plains Ojibwe. Sagada was used for people of French/Scotch and Cree, Ojibwe, and Assiniboin backgrounds --otherwise known as Metis. Generally, the people who were enrolled at Turtle Mountain were called Sagada as opposed to Ojibwe at Red Lake who were known as Hahatonwan. Cree/Ojibwe in Saskatchewan at Piapot Reserve were called S'ahiya. Pat Albers >Koontz John E wrote: > >>On Tue, 16 Mar 2004, Mary Marino wrote: >> >>>S^ahiya is current among Canadian Dakota speakers for 'Cree'. I've never >>>recorded S^ahiyena. >>> >>> >> >>Wow! That's fantastic! Previously I'd only seen it mentioned in old >>sources as the Assiniboine name for the "Knisteneaux," and in Hidatsa, for >>example, there is s^ahi' 'Cree'. In Santee and Teton the usual term is >>'Rabbit People.' >> >Oh nifty! There's a place in central Saskatchewan called >"Kinistino". I never made the connection before. > >And I've seen S^ahiya in my notes from Assiniboine class, but I >honestly don't remember her saying it. I'm sure it referred to the >Cree though. > >Shannon From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Wed Mar 17 19:31:53 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 20:31:53 +0100 Subject: Terms for "white man" Message-ID: That'what I found here: http://www.native-languages.org/cree.htm >>"Cree" comes from the French name for the tribe, "Kristenaux," variously said to be a corruption of the French word for "Christian" or an Algonquian word for "first people." When speaking their own language the Cree refer to themselves as Ayisiniwok, meaning "true men," or Iyiniwok, Eenou, Iynu, or Eeyou, meaning simply "the people" (these words have the same Central Algonquian root as the Montagnais word Innu).<< BTW, can anybody tell me why the Cree are called Rabbit People in Dakota? (Has it to do with a totem animal?) That's what I found here about this name (referring to the Plains Cree): http://www.d.umn.edu/~tbacig/mhcpresent/metisprs.html >>Some major Ojibwe had specific names according to location: Missisauga in southern Ontario; Salteaux of upper Michigan; and Bungee for the Ojibwe of the northern Great Plains. Other names: Aoechisaeronon (Huron), Assisagigroone (Iroquois), Axshissayerunu, (Wyandot), Bawichtigouek (French), Bedzaqetcha (Tsattine), Bedzietcho (Kawchodinne), Bungee (Plains Ojibwe, Plains Chippewa) (Hudson Bay), Dewakanha (Mohawk), Dshipowehaga (Caughnawaga), Dwakanen (Onondaga), Eskiaeronnon (Huron), Hahatonwan (Dakota), Hahatonway (Hidatsa), Jumper, Kutaki (Fox), Leaper, Neayaog (Cree), Nwaka (Tuscarora), Ostiagahoroone (Iroquois), Paouichtigouin (French), RABBIT PEOPLE (Plains Cree),Regatci (Negatce) (Winnebago), Saulteur (Saulteaux) (French), Sore Face (Hunkpapa Lakota), Sotoe (British), and Wahkahtowah (Assiniboine).<< Maybe the answer can be found here: http://christianmorrisseau.myknet.org/ Alfred Alfred From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 17 20:10:35 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:10:35 -0700 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Mar 2004, Patricia Albers wrote: > In the late 1960s and early 1970s, the Dakotas at Spirit Lake used > S'ahiya for Plains Cree and Plains Ojibwe. Sagada was used for > people of French/Scotch and Cree, Ojibwe, and Assiniboin backgrounds > --otherwise known as Metis. Generally, the people who were enrolled > at Turtle Mountain were called Sagada as opposed to Ojibwe at Red > Lake who were known as Hahatonwan. Cree/Ojibwe in Saskatchewan at > Piapot Reserve were called S'ahiya. Pat Albers The sagada term looks like a truncation of our old friend the 'British, Canadian' term, cf. Teton s^aglas^a (via Algonquian languages from French "[le]s Anglais"). I think I have the Teton fricative grades right, but maybe not. Of course, in this case truncation could amount to borrowing the term from an Algonquian context in which the Algonquian diminutive-pejorative (the final fricative) was missing. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 17 20:29:04 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:29:04 -0700 Subject: Dental Sonorants or Approximants (Re: Terms for "white man") In-Reply-To: <405890FD.8010102@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > There were Ojibway dialects at various times and places with reflexes r, > l, and n for Proto-Algonquian l; it's n in modern O.) > Rankin: > > Might have something to do with the fact that Cree, like Siouan, has the > > [dh, n, r, l, y] variation for its dental approximant phoneme. It seems like this is characteristic of all of the large Northeastern dialect chains. In Siouan we might say that we have two or three of these chains, e.g., Dakotan (Te l ~ n, Sa d ~ n, Ya d ~ n, As n, St n - and really these all alternate with y in historically unclustered contexts, too), and Dhegiha (OP dh ~ n, Ks y ~ l ~ n, Os dh ~ r ~ l ~ n, Qu d ~ n, with the first alternant in Ks and OS being the unclustered alternant). Winnebago and Ioway-Otoe are a bit too far apart to be called dialects, but Winnebago has r ~ n, and IO has something that is usually written r ~ n at the moment, but has been written l ~ n in the past. In all cases where there is an n alternant, this is what occurs before nasal vowels, albeit not all nasal vowels, and some n's seem to have a different source. If there's only an n variant, then n occurs everywhere. (However, I'm not completely positive this is a fair characterization of Assiniboine or Stoney.) Outside of Mississippi Valley Siouan, in Missouri River Siouan or Crow-Hidatsa, Kaschube writes r for Crow (perhaps an arbitrary choice of a neutral symbol for the underlying entity), while the current popular orthography writes d ~ l ~ n, depending on context. Hidatsa specialists have somewhat similar ranges of practices, but I think at present they are writing n ~ r, depending on context. These languages don't have nasal vowels, and Crow n occurs in rr clusters (nn) and, I think finally, while in Hidatsa it occurs at least initially and probably also in clusters, though I don't recall the details. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Mar 17 20:45:58 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:45:58 -0800 Subject: Dental Sonorants or Approximants Message-ID: This r/n/l/y variation is also found all over New England Algonquian. They're all reflexes of Proto-Eastern Algonquian */r/. Some poorly attested Algonquian languages of Maryland even have 'z' for this sound. No voiced interdental fricatives, however. Dave Costa > On Wed, 17 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: There were Ojibway dialects at > various times and places with reflexes r, l, and n for Proto-Algonquian l; > it's n in modern O.) > Rankin: Might have something to do with the fact that Cree, like Siouan, has > the [dh, n, r, l, y] variation for its dental approximant phoneme. > It seems like this is characteristic of all of the large Northeastern dialect > chains. In Siouan we might say that we have two or three of these chains, > e.g., Dakotan (Te l ~ n, Sa d ~ n, Ya d ~ n, As n, St n - and really these all > alternate with y in historically unclustered contexts, too), and Dhegiha (OP > dh ~ n, Ks y ~ l ~ n, Os dh ~ r ~ l ~ n, Qu d ~ n, with the first alternant in > Ks and OS being the unclustered alternant). Winnebago and Ioway-Otoe are a bit > too far apart to be called dialects, but Winnebago has r ~ n, and IO has > something that is usually written r ~ n at the moment, but has been written l > ~ n in the past. In all cases where there is an n alternant, this is what > occurs before nasal vowels, albeit not all nasal vowels, and some n's seem to > have a different source. If there's only an n variant, then n occurs > everywhere. (However, I'm not completely positive this is a fair > characterization of Assiniboine or Stoney.) > Outside of Mississippi Valley Siouan, in Missouri River Siouan or > Crow-Hidatsa, Kaschube writes r for Crow (perhaps an arbitrary choice of a > neutral symbol for the underlying entity), while the current popular > orthography writes d ~ l ~ n, depending on context. Hidatsa specialists have > somewhat similar ranges of practices, but I think at present they are writing > n ~ r, depending on context. These languages don't have nasal vowels, and > Crow n occurs in rr clusters (nn) and, I think finally, while in Hidatsa it > occurs at least initially and probably also in clusters, though I don't recall > the details. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Mar 18 00:32:39 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 17:32:39 -0700 Subject: Dental Sonorants or Approximants In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > They're all reflexes of Proto-Eastern Algonquian */r/. Some poorly attested > Algonquian languages of Maryland even have 'z' for this sound. No voiced > interdental fricatives, however. The OP dh sounds to some extent like edh, but it actually seems to be some sort of post-alveolar lateral. Maybe that's where the z comes from, too. The shift of intervocalic s (probably always z) to r is fairly widely attested, e.g., in Latin, where, as I understand it, the infinitive in -re is from an old locative in *se (or maybe it was *si). And Norse -Vr masculine singulars and plurals are from *-Vz. As I understand it there a sort of continuum from fricative to trill - trilling is exagerated friction? However, I don't think any of the Siouan r's are trilled, just tapped. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Mar 18 00:24:33 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:24:33 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Patricia Albers wrote: > Generally, the people who were enrolled at > Turtle Mountain were called Sagada as opposed to Ojibwe at Red Lake who > were known as Hahatonwan. Riggs (Dict. 160) has Ha-ha'-toN-waN [both h's with dot below] 'the Chippewa or Ojibway Indians, the name given to them by the Dakotas, as those who make their village at the falls'. This is probably a translation of the Ojibway band-name pa:wittikwininiwak ‘people of the rapids’ (specif. of Sault Ste. Marie between lakes Superior and Huron), whence also Fr. Sauteur 'rapids or falls person' and Saulteaux, the current Eng. name of a division of the Ojibwa occupying western Ontario and eastern Manitoba. Alan From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Thu Mar 18 08:33:08 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:33:08 +0100 Subject: Dental sonorants ... Message-ID: >(John:)The shift of intervocalic s (probably always z) to r is fairly widely attested, e.g., in Latin, where, as I understand it, the infinitive in -re is from an old locative in *se (or maybe it was *si). And Norse -Vr masculine singulars and plurals are from *-Vz. As I understand it there a sort of continuum from fricative to trill - trilling is exagerated friction? However, I don't think any of the Siouan r's are trilled, just tapped.<< It appears that S (Z, TH/DH), L and R are pretty close and interchangeable (in the sense of shift) in many languages, obviously due to the tongue tip's position: e.g. Chinese/Japanese: L/R, Latin/Romanian: (intervocalic) L -> R (angelus -> înger(-ul), filum -> fir(-ul) etc.), Welsh: LL is produced with the tongue tip in L-position and 'blowing' as if pronouncing an S. Alfred From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Mar 18 11:36:38 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 11:36:38 +0000 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: <4058A7A9.5060806@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: On 17/3/04 7:31 pm, "Alfred W. Tüting" wrote: > That'what I found here: > > http://www.native-languages.org/cree.htm > >>> "Cree" comes from the French name for the tribe, "Kristenaux," > variously said to be a corruption of the French word for "Christian" or > an Algonquian word for "first people." When speaking their own language > the Cree refer to themselves as Ayisiniwok, meaning "true men," or > Iyiniwok, Eenou, Iynu, or Eeyou, meaning simply "the people" (these > words have the same Central Algonquian root as the Montagnais word Innu).<< > > BTW, can anybody tell me why the Cree are called Rabbit People in > Dakota? (Has it to do with a totem animal?) That's what I found here > about this name (referring to the Plains Cree): > > http://www.d.umn.edu/~tbacig/mhcpresent/metisprs.html > >>> Some major Ojibwe had specific names according to location: Neayaog (Cree), > (Negatce) > > Maybe the answer can be found here: > > http://christianmorrisseau.myknet.org/ > > > Alfred > > > > > Alfred > > > > > The Plains Cree also call themselves Nehiyaw-ak. Is there any original meaning fro that word? Bruce From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Mar 18 11:41:44 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 11:41:44 +0000 Subject: Lakota letter from Leeds at the turn of the century Message-ID: Dear all I did not get much response for this earlier, perhaps because I had sent it with the heading Active & Stative verbs. Has any one any suggestions. I hope to be able to send a facsimile of the actual letter in hand writing later. Bruce Dear all A friend of mine is writing a book on contacts between Scotland and the American Indians. He located a letter from the Yorkshire Evening Post dated 2001 I think in which there is a facsimile of a letter from a Lakota with the Buffalo Bill Outfit to his father in America. It is in the old copper plate cursive type handwriting and I am not always clear on the actual letters but seems to be like this, with his lines and spaces, with dubious items in brackets. He uses dots over s (and n) etc which I here mark with ^: Ito ate le anpetu kin wowape cicu kte lo na (eya) mis^ taku na ota-aciciya un^ kte s^ni tka itoptelye la wocici ya kin kte lo (letuya) waon tka taku s^ica wa ons^niyelo lila tanyan waon welo iho hecetu we lo I take this to be Ito ate le anpetu kin wowapi cic'u kte lo na (eya) mis^ takuna ota aciciya uN kte s^ni tka itoptelyela wociciyakin kte lo. Letuya wauN tka taku s^ica wauN s^ni yelo. Lila taNyaN wauN welo. Iho hecetu welo. Does anyone have any comments. I wish I could send it as a photocopy. The sentence that floors me is takuna ota aciciya uN kte s^ni tka, also the use of itoptelyela which I suppose is an alternative to optoptelya meaning 'for a while' Any ideas Bruce From jfu at centrum.cz Thu Mar 18 07:25:21 2004 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:25:21 +0100 Subject: Lakota letter from Leeds at the turn of the century In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bruce, In my experience with handwritten texts by early Lakota literates there are very frequent confusions of letters. So I think it is likely that “takuna ota aciciya un kte s^ni” stands for “takuni ota echiciya un kte s^ni” = “I won’t say much to you(pl.)” where “echiciya un kte” could be the colloquial for “echiciyapi kte” > Ito ate le anpetu kin wowapi cic'u kte lo na (eya) mis^ takuna ota aciciya > uN kte s^ni tka itoptelyela wociciyakin kte lo. Letuya wauN tka > taku s^ica > wauN s^ni yelo. Lila taNyaN wauN welo. Iho hecetu welo. The translation then would be: “My father, I am sending (‘giving’) you a letter today. I am not going to tell you(pl.) much, but I will speak to you shortly. Here where I am I have no troubles. I am doing very well. That is all (‘That is the way it is’). Indeed, the switching between singular and plural in the three verbs of the first sentence is weird (wowapi chic’u; echiciyapi; wochiciyakin kte). So alternatively “un” is some sort of a stumbled word or part of a word, perhaps “echiciya waun kte shni”. Such cases are not uncommon in Lakota manuscripts either. > I wish I could send it as a photocopy. With brief texts like this the option is to scan the page and send it as an attachment in JPEG format. Reading the actual handwriting sometimes allows multiple interpretations. Jan Jan Ullrich American Indian Studies Research Institute Indiana University, Bloomington www.inext.cz/siouan From napshawin at msn.com Thu Mar 18 23:10:03 2004 From: napshawin at msn.com (CATCHES VIOLET) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 17:10:03 -0600 Subject: Lakota letter from Leeds at the turn of the century Message-ID: Itxo, ate' le anpetu kin wowapi chic'u kte lo na eya, mish taku na (ni) (perhaps, takuni) ota achiciya (echiciya) un kte shni tkxa itxo ptelyela (ptelyela) wochiciyakin kte lo (letuya) wa-un tkxa taku shica wa-yun shni yelo lila tanyan wa-un welo Iho. Hechetu welo This is the version in the way I write with the Txakini-Iya Wowapi. Violet Catches, miye >Ito ate le anpetu >kin wowape cicu >kte lo na (eya) mis^ >taku na ota-aciciya >un^ kte s^ni tka >itoptelye la wocici >ya kin kte lo (letuya) >waon tka taku >s^ica wa ons^niyelo >lila tanyan waon >welo iho hecetu >we lo > >I take this to be >Ito ate le anpetu kin wowapi cic'u kte lo na (eya) mis^ takuna ota aciciya >uN kte s^ni tka itoptelyela wociciyakin kte lo. Letuya wauN tka taku s^ica >wauN s^ni yelo. Lila taNyaN wauN welo. Iho hecetu welo. >Does anyone have any comments. I wish I could send it as a photocopy. The >sentence that floors me is takuna ota aciciya uN kte s^ni tka, also the use >of itoptelyela which I suppose is an alternative to optoptelya meaning 'for > a while' > >Any ideas >Bruce > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee� Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Fri Mar 19 08:11:14 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:11:14 +0100 Subject: Lakota letter from Leeds at the turn of the century Message-ID: > (Jan:) “My father, I am sending (‘giving’) you a letter today. I am not going to tell you(pl.) much, but I will speak to you shortly. Here where I am I have no troubles. I am doing very well. That is all (‘That is the way it is’). Indeed, the switching between singular and plural in the three verbs of the first sentence is weird (wowapi chic’u; echiciyapi; wochiciyakin kte). So alternatively “un” is some sort of a stumbled word or part of a word, perhaps “echiciya waun kte shni”. Such cases are not uncommon in Lakota manuscripts either.<< The _echiciya uN kte_ <- _echicia pi kte_ interpretation, to me, seems quite convincing :-) (Thanks!) Here, just my two cents referring to the 'weird' switching between singular and plural: As being familiar to the ancient (German) dialect of the Transylvanian Saxons/Siebenbürger Sachsen (although not really being a speaker myself) I can tell you that this issue is a - syntactical/logical(?) - peculiarity of this language also, even when transferred into the modern High German they speak. So, I usually hear (German) sentences like this: 1) "Karin sind gekommen" (K. _have_ come) - i.e. she's come with, say, her husband (=myself), her sister, children etc. 2) "Wir sind mit Mutti dort gewesen" (we've been there with Mom) - i.e. Mom and I have been there (=we two) This (#1) is kind of pars pro toto, which might also be the idea behind the above Lakota addressing: "My father (and Mom, brothers etc.) ..." Alfred From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Mar 20 04:40:40 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 21:40:40 -0700 Subject: Siouan & Caddoan Languages Conference update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > Has anyone seen an announcement on the Linguist List? I sent one in a > while back, but never saw it -- may have deleted it by mistake among the > daily flood of spam??? Truthfully, I don't recall seeing it either, but I searched and found it in their archives at: http://linguistlist.org/issues/15/15-507.html#2 Message 2: 24th Annual Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 13:02:53 -0500 (EST) From: carudin1 Subject: 24th Annual Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference === Message one was about the 2004 Linguistic Society of Korea International Conference so I probably deleted the whoe thing without reading further. LinguistList used to be fairly interesting, but I notice it doesn't have much actual discussion these days. It's more like the reading the Bulletin than reading the Journal, to draw an analogy with the LSA's publications. I hope to see some of you folks in June. JEK From mary.marino at usask.ca Sat Mar 20 05:40:58 2004 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Mary Marino) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:40:58 -0600 Subject: Siouan & Caddoan Languages Conference update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, You'll see me, in any case. I didn't see this announcement either, and I suspect I deleted it. Will be more attentive and careful in future. Mary At 09:40 PM 3/19/2004 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > > Has anyone seen an announcement on the Linguist List? I sent one in a > > while back, but never saw it -- may have deleted it by mistake among the > > daily flood of spam??? > >Truthfully, I don't recall seeing it either, but I searched and found it >in their archives at: > >http://linguistlist.org/issues/15/15-507.html#2 > >Message 2: 24th Annual Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference >Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 13:02:53 -0500 (EST) >From: carudin1 >Subject: 24th Annual Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference > > >=== > >Message one was about the 2004 Linguistic Society of Korea International >Conference so I probably deleted the whoe thing without reading further. >LinguistList used to be fairly interesting, but I notice it doesn't have >much actual discussion these days. It's more like the reading the >Bulletin than reading the Journal, to draw an analogy with the LSA's >publications. > >I hope to see some of you folks in June. > >JEK From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sat Mar 20 15:41:07 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 09:41:07 -0600 Subject: early spellings Message-ID: A recent post to the Chinook listserv posed the question of what the early English system(s) of transcription of Indian words was called and how those spellings might be interpreted. Following is my reply which I thought might be pertinent to some Siouan questions: John Koontz calls it (or something like it) the "Lewis & Clark Phonetic Alphabet" (http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/faq/orthography.htm#LCPA) Most of the journalists of the Lewis and Clark expedition were nonrhotic speakers of English, as I imagine was Dunn, so their nonstandard spellings have a lot of dropped and added r's. The question arises whether these added r's--as in warter and musquetors--indicated a pronounced r or were simply a reverse spelling. It's hard to say in the case of English words that in some dialects do have an intrusive r (Warshington), but Indian words with no trace of r and which the journalists would seldom if ever have seen written provide pretty convincing evidence of simple reverse spelling. (In the following list of L & C spellings, * marks words written both with and without r, including the English 'exhaust' and French 'cache'.) In stressed syllables: Ahwahaway [Amahami] (Ahwahharway), *cache (carsh, cash), *camas (quarmash, quarmarsh, quawmash), Dakota (Darcotar), *Kalapuya (Cal-lar-po-e-wah, Cal-lâh-po-e-wah), Mahaha (Mahharha), *Nemaha (Nemarhar, Moha), *Omaha (Mahar, Maha), *Osage (Osarge, osoge), pasheco (pashaquar), *pogamoggan (pog-gar-mag-gon, Poggamoggon), Ponashita(Pâr-nâsh-te), *Sacagawea (Sâhcâhgâweâ, Sahcahgarweah), Shaha (Sharha), yampa (yearpah [with deletion of the nasal in this dialect of Shoshone]), *exhaust (exorst, exost, exhost), *Multnomah (Multnomah and Multnomar, Multnomah, Moltnomar), *Nodaway (nordaway, Nodaway, Nardaway), *Pawnee (Parnee, Paunee, Pania), pembina (Pembenar), Poncas (Porncases), shapat [Arikara ‘woman’] (Char-part), twánhayuksh [Chinookan ‘enemies’] (Towarnehiooks). In unstressed syllables: *camas (quarmarsh), Dakota (darcotar), Kansa (kansar), *Wetesoon (WauteSoon, Weter Soon), Tacoutche-Tesse (Tarcouche tesse), *Wakiacum (Warkiacum, Wackiacum, warkiacome), *Watlala (Warclellar, Wahclellar, Wahclellah) There are many other peculiarities to watch out for in using English spellings to deduce the pronunciation of native words. L & C, for instance, very often switch short i and short e in their writings, and it's difficult to say just what pron. was intended in each case. (In modern southern English, short e is often raised to short i and short i is NOT lowered to short e, but in L & C, there's evidence that it works both ways.) In short, in order to draw conclusions about native pronunciations from early transcriptions in English, one has to know a lot about 1.) the pronunciation of the journalist's dialect, and 2.) the journalist's orthographic habits. Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Mar 20 21:26:43 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 14:26:43 -0700 Subject: early spellings In-Reply-To: <405C6613.2060409@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > A recent post to the Chinook listserv posed the question of what the > early English system(s) of transcription of Indian words was called and > how those spellings might be interpreted. Following is my reply which I > thought might be pertinent to some Siouan questions: > > John Koontz calls it (or something like it) the "Lewis & Clark Phonetic > Alphabet" (http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/faq/orthography.htm#LCPA) I meant this entirely tongue in cheek, of course. There really wasn't any system at all in general use, though you can find cases of more systematic use somewhat later. I think the really standardized system used in America for transcribing Native American languages was the BAE system. however, it and its successors have never had the slightest influence on popular usage. Anyway, Alan, the logic of your deductions here strikes me as excellent. > The question arises whether these added r's--as in warter and > musquetors--indicated a pronounced r or were simply a reverse spelling. > It's hard to say in the case of English words that in some dialects do > have an intrusive r (Warshington), but Indian words with no trace of r > and which the journalists would seldom if ever have seen written provide > pretty convincing evidence of simple reverse spelling. Incidentally, as a child growing up near Buldimore, Mirlin, I always said (rhotic) worsh and Worshingtin, since I was being raised in Maryland where this is notoriously the use. My mother was (and still is) a native speaker of Mirlindish, though the vowel shifts have progressed enormously since her childhood. It was only in third grade during the required unit on Maryland history that I suddenly realized that the state name had nothing to do with the given name Marilyn, both of which were pronounced mirlin (as in Mirlin Munro) (the -o is epsilon+w). I combined my Mirlindese with alien pronunciations like boosh and poosh which I have since realized were acquired from my Kansas-born father. I remember being teased constantly for talking like this, though that was nothing to the flabber-begastment of kids in Detroit and Denver to Mirlindese. "Where are you from? Are you English?" During German classes in college I suddenly realized that the family pronunciation of Koontz ("long" oo of coon, not "short" oo of book as would be expected) might reflect this Kansas phase. This began when my native-speaker German teacher attempted delicately to correct my pronunciation of Koontz. Until then it had not occurred to me that I might be saying it wrong from a German perspective. Of course, I'm not sure if "short" oo really can occur before n in English, and maybe that's the more important factor. Given the range of vowel pronunciations in English and the degree of disconnect between vowel spelling and that pronunciation, it is not surprising that we are often at sea in deciphering English-based spelling of Native American languages. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Mar 20 21:46:12 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 14:46:12 -0700 Subject: (O)maha Message-ID: Not to mention Mahar. I was just reading Bill Bright's comments in the SSILA Newsletter on Colonial French truncated tribal names in Plains and Prairie region, like (Nadoues)sioux and Kaw < Ka(n)(sas). He didn't mention Cree < Cri(s) < Cristeneaux, by the way! Or Ree < (Arica)ris, which must be the same pattern. However, he did mention some cases of placenames in which initial O- reflects French 'aux', as in Oka < Aux Ka(s) 'at the Kaws' and Ozarks < aux Arcs 'at the Arkansas'. It suddenly occurred to me, speculatively, that the truncation of initial O in Omaha might be either this form of affective truncation or, equally, it might be the result of taking it to be aux 'at the'. I don't know that Omaha is ever attested in the early accounts. So perhaps Omahas was reanalyzed as 'aux Mahas'? I believe that during much of the 1700s the Omahas were living at a particular place known since as Omaha Creek, so that thinking of the place as 'aux Mahas' might have been natural. This is also somewhat consistant with referring to the Poncas as 'mahas erran(t)s' 'wandering Omahas'. Of course, Osage doesn't get reduced to Sage. In fact, I believe O(s) was the usual form. But perhaps the Osage where not associated with a particular place for so long, or perhaps, the lot having fallen on the first syllable, it was not liable to reanalysis. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Mar 21 04:18:39 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 22:18:39 -0600 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > It suddenly occurred to me, speculatively, that the truncation of initial > O in Omaha might be either this form of affective truncation or, equally, > it might be the result of taking it to be aux 'at the'. I don't know that > Omaha is ever attested in the early accounts. The earliest I've seen with O- is 1814 H. M. BRACKENRIDGE Views Louisiana I. vi. 76 "Mahas, (or Oo-ma-ha) Reside on the Maha creek." This doesn't seem like "aux" to me. Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Mar 21 19:47:29 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 12:47:29 -0700 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: <405D179F.2020304@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > The earliest I've seen with O- is 1814 H. M. BRACKENRIDGE Views > Louisiana I. vi. 76 "Mahas, (or Oo-ma-ha) Reside on the Maha creek." > > This doesn't seem like "aux" to me. Do you mean in general, or in the context of this example? I admit the idea has its weaknesses, of course. Apart from simple issues of satisfactory attestation, lack of parallelism in handling of Osage, and distinguishing this approach from truncation, the u-pronunciation of the locative or directional prefix in Omaha-Ponca (*o > u, *u > i, *i > i) is a possible issue. However, all the adjacent and downriver Siouan groups retain o, and the u is not a particularly high one. What if you think of the citation here in French terms, "Mahas, (ou ou-ma-ha) Demeurent au ruisseau Maha." I think you could fairly say au Maha or aux Mahas, depending on whether you refer to the creek or the people. Or is the preposition a correct in this context in French? My French is definitely sort of catch as catch can. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Mar 21 19:51:34 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 12:51:34 -0700 Subject: Away from the List Message-ID: The system I use to access the list will be off line March 25-27. John Koontz From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Mar 21 19:57:02 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 12:57:02 -0700 Subject: Away from the List, Addendum In-Reply-To: <200403110018.i2B0IMmB026578@perceval.colorado.edu> Message-ID: It occurs to me that I should probably say that, as far as I can see, the list itself will be unaffected. I believe lists are supported by a different machine. However, any interruption that might arise will be temporary. John Koontz From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Mar 21 20:02:29 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 14:02:29 -0600 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: >>The earliest I've seen with O- is 1814 H. M. BRACKENRIDGE Views >>Louisiana I. vi. 76 "Mahas, (or Oo-ma-ha) Reside on the Maha creek." >> >>This doesn't seem like "aux" to me. > > > Do you mean in general, or in the context of this example? I mean here specifically, because of the vowel quality. Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Mar 22 02:48:06 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 20:48:06 -0600 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > It suddenly occurred to me, speculatively, that the truncation of initial > O in Omaha might be either this form of affective truncation or, equally, > it might be the result of taking it to be aux 'at the'. I don't know that > Omaha is ever attested in the early accounts. So perhaps Omahas was > reanalyzed as 'aux Mahas'? Can maha stand alone (without the [locative?] o-) in Dhegiha? The earliest record I know of is Marquette's Maha in 1673, and I don't recall any examples of 'aux Mahas' (though bear in mind that my recall sometimes falls short!) Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 22 05:25:27 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 22:25:27 -0700 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: <405E53E6.70106@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > Can maha stand alone (without the [locative?] o-) in Dhegiha? It's not known to occur that way, and, oddly enough, neither is umaN'haN ~ omaN'haN. What I've seen is: Dakotan O'ma(N)ha 'Omaha' Omaha-Ponca UmaN'haN (final syllable usually denasalized to schwa) 'Omaha' kki'maNhaN-ugaxdhe 'facing against the wind (e.g., of elk)' (looks like a reflexive?) Ni'maNhaN 'a personal name' (may be 'Muddy Water(s)' with a homophonous root maNha(N) 'muddy') (Probably not a reference to McKinley Morganfield, however.) s^u'demaNhaN=xti 'a very thick fog' (s^u'de 'smoke, most', xti 'very', maybe also 'maNha(N) 'muddy', perhaps 'mudbank mist'?) Note that while the name Omaha is said to mean 'against the wind or current', hence 'upstream', the OP form Dorsey gives for 'upstream, north' in normal use is itta'gha=tta. It's possible that there are contexts in which umaN'haN occurs as 'upstream' or something like that, but it's also possible that the meaning is deduced from kki'maNhaN, which is widely attested, plus the usual sense of u-forms. The u- locative is the OP version of PSi o-, cf. o- in that capacity in most other Mississippi Valley langauges, and is due to the *o > u vowel shift in Omaha-Ponca. Ks kki'maNhaN 'against the wind or current' Os hki'maNhaN 'against the wind or current' Quapaw: kki'maNhaN 'against the wind or current' I'maNhaN 'name of a Quapaw village which later merged with the Caddo' (with the locative i- 'with; in the direction of' instead of o- 'in, at') (presumably etymologically 'upstream(ward)') Ioway-Otoe iromaNhaN 'upstream' (i + o + maNhaN) umaNhaN 'upstream' (perhaps only as explanation of Omaha ethnonym?) Winnebago: maNaNhaN' 'go against the medium' hiromaNhaN=iNj^a 'at the upper part (of the river)' (i + o + maNhaN) Note that IO and Wi do attest *omaN(aN)haN, albeit in the further derived *iro'maNhaN. The sequence *iro- (Da iyo-, OP udhu-, Ks oyo-, Os odho-, IO iro-, Wi hiro-) is the PSi (or just Proto-MVS?) compound of the *i and *o locatives. I'm not sure if the IO form umaN'haN is supposed to exist independently (I think *o- > *u- is normal in initial position), or merely to explain Omaha, but, in principle, it is an attestation of *omaN(aN)'haN. Interestingly, it's the only one outside of the ethnonym. Also note that Wi is the only language where the bare form maNaNhaN' is attested. I think this collection of forms is more or less complete for the usual lexical sources, but is probably far from complete in terms of actual forms, since the dictionaries are at best extensive samples. > The earliest record I know of is Marquette's Maha in 1673, and I don't > recall any examples of 'aux Mahas' (though bear in mind that my recall > sometimes falls short!) Yes, that's the attestation problem I was afraid of - not knowing the sources. It may be insurmountable. Maha(s) without 'aux Mahas' looks more like truncation. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 22 10:26:09 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 05:26:09 -0500 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Let me just add a couple things: 1) Aux Mahas would be perfectly good French for referring to where these folks lived/or where you, as a French person, was heading. We see this form *very often* in the Illinois Country, for example 2) Aux Pes, Aux Mis, Aux Cas, Aux Poux, Aux Ouias, oh oh oh. Marquette wrote < Maha > on his map of the Mississippi, a name he got from the Illinois-speaking Peoria. Michael McCafferty On Sun, 21 Mar 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Sat, 20 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > > The earliest I've seen with O- is 1814 H. M. BRACKENRIDGE Views > > Louisiana I. vi. 76 "Mahas, (or Oo-ma-ha) Reside on the Maha creek." > > > > This doesn't seem like "aux" to me. > > Do you mean in general, or in the context of this example? I admit the > idea has its weaknesses, of course. Apart from simple issues of > satisfactory attestation, lack of parallelism in handling of Osage, and > distinguishing this approach from truncation, the u-pronunciation of the > locative or directional prefix in Omaha-Ponca (*o > u, *u > i, *i > i) is > a possible issue. However, all the adjacent and downriver Siouan groups > retain o, and the u is not a particularly high one. > > What if you think of the citation here in French terms, "Mahas, (ou > ou-ma-ha) Demeurent au ruisseau Maha." I think you could fairly say au > Maha or aux Mahas, depending on whether you refer to the creek or the > people. Or is the preposition a correct in this context in French? My > French is definitely sort of catch as catch can. > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 22 16:39:11 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 09:39:11 -0700 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Marquette wrote < Maha > on his map of the Mississippi, a name he got from > the Illinois-speaking Peoria. Perhaps I am looking in the wrong place. Could the deletion of initial o- in an ethnonym have anything to do with Miami-Illinois morphology? JEK From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Mar 22 16:58:13 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 08:58:13 -0800 Subject: (O)maha Message-ID: Only in the sense that initial short vowels come and go unpredictably with tribe names in M-I (and elsewhere in central Algonquian). It can't be normal phonological processes, since word-initial short vowels are *not* deleted by sound law in old Illinois. In the modern (19th century) language, yes. Incidentally, this word never would have been */oma(:)ha/ in Miami-Illinois, since word-initial short /o/ is not allowed in the language. If it ever had an initial V, it only could have been /a/. But no name for the Omaha is attested in any Miami-Illinois source, other than Marquette's map. There *is* an attested name for the Omaha in Shawnee, though: /maha/, plural /mahaaki/. Dave Costa >> Marquette wrote < Maha > on his map of the Mississippi, a name he got from >> the Illinois-speaking Peoria. > > Perhaps I am looking in the wrong place. Could the deletion of initial o- > in an ethnonym have anything to do with Miami-Illinois morphology? > > JEK From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 22 17:00:31 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 12:00:31 -0500 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, in a way. In Miami-Illinois we'd be talking about ethnonymic prefix /a-/ not /o-/, if it was ever there in < Maha >. Michael Quoting Koontz John E : > On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > Marquette wrote < Maha > on his map of the Mississippi, a name he got from > > the Illinois-speaking Peoria. > > Perhaps I am looking in the wrong place. Could the deletion of initial o- > in an ethnonym have anything to do with Miami-Illinois morphology? > > JEK > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 22 17:45:54 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 10:45:54 -0700 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > Only in the sense that initial short vowels come and go unpredictably with > tribe names in M-I (and elsewhere in central Algonquian). It can't be normal > phonological processes, since word-initial short vowels are *not* deleted by > sound law in old Illinois. In the modern (19th century) language, yes. > > Incidentally, this word never would have been */oma(:)ha/ in Miami-Illinois, > since word-initial short /o/ is not allowed in the language. If it ever had > an initial V, it only could have been /a/. But no name for the Omaha is > attested in any Miami-Illinois source, other than Marquette's map. > > There *is* an attested name for the Omaha in Shawnee, though: /maha/, plural > /mahaaki/. So perhaps the form Maha may owe more to sporadic deletion of short initial vowels in Miami-Illinois than to any hearing problem on the part of Lewis & Clark (as I first thought, some years ago) or to French truncated names (as I've wondered more recently) or to reanalysis of o- as French aux (as I wondered over the weekend)? I take it we can assume that Shawnee is not a particularly likely source for Marquette's Maha listing - more likely Ojibwe or Miami-Illinois? I'm not aware of any of the relevant or even irrelevant Siouan languages having any problems with initial vowels, short or long. JEK From rankin at ku.edu Mon Mar 22 17:47:34 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:47:34 -0600 Subject: (O)maha Message-ID: It would be a-maha as in A-kans(e)a. I sometimes wondered if some of those explorers and early cartographers (many of whom were safely home in Europe) might have occasionally confused (O)maha and Pawnee Mahas. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 10:39 AM Subject: Re: (O)maha > On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > Marquette wrote < Maha > on his map of the Mississippi, a name he got from > > the Illinois-speaking Peoria. > > Perhaps I am looking in the wrong place. Could the deletion of initial o- > in an ethnonym have anything to do with Miami-Illinois morphology? > > JEK > From rankin at ku.edu Mon Mar 22 17:56:32 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:56:32 -0600 Subject: (O)maha Message-ID: > I take it we can assume that Shawnee is not a particularly likely source > for Marquette's Maha listing - more likely Ojibwe or Miami-Illinois? I'm > not aware of any of the relevant or even irrelevant Siouan languages > having any problems with initial vowels, short or long. He acquired the tribal name for his map while exploring the Mississippi. There's no telling how many tribes the name might have filtered through before getting to the Illinois Algonquians. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 22 18:15:25 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:15:25 -0700 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: <005001c41037$51d8b9a0$1bb5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > He acquired the tribal name for his map while exploring the Mississippi. > There's no telling how many tribes the name might have filtered through before > getting to the Illinois Algonquians. True, but the simplest assumption is that it filtered along the Missouri and up and down the Mississippi, or across Iowa-Minnesota-Wisconsin to the Mississippi and Great Lakes to the places where he might most logically have encountered it. We have a general idea what the list of languages would have been, in these cases, and we know his main contact languages, too. Of course, there are some anomalies like the mysterious Michigamea language to warn us that we don't have all the cards from the original deck. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 22 18:18:50 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:18:50 -0700 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: <003a01c41035$d7d777f0$1bb5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > ... I sometimes wondered if some of those explorers and early > cartographers (many of whom were safely home in Europe) might have > occasionally confused (O)maha and Pawnee Mahas. I don't recall specifics, but I have certainly run across comments which suggested as much. I should have listed ppadhiN(-)(u?)maNhaN as a form with -maNhaN. I don't recall at the moment what the precise form is, or even if it is attested for Skiri in Omaha-Ponca. I think it is. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Mar 22 18:27:06 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 12:27:06 -0600 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > So perhaps the form Maha may owe more to sporadic deletion of short > initial vowels in Miami-Illinois Sounds like the best bet. > I take it we can assume that Shawnee is not a particularly likely source > for Marquette's Maha I think that's true. A possible route would be: Siouan > Miami-Illinois > Shawnee (and French) Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Mar 22 22:34:08 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:34:08 -0600 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > I should have listed ppadhiN(-)(u?)maNhaN as a form with -maNhaN. I don't > recall at the moment what the precise form is, or even if it is attested > for Skiri in Omaha-Ponca. I think it is. < Fr Panimaha (1687), perhaps via Illinois pa:nimaha, < a Dhegiha word (cf. Quapaw ppanimáha, Omaha & Osage ppádhiNmaNhaN, Kansa ppáyiNmáhaN) meaning 'upstream Pawnees' based on Papers 31st Algonquian Conf. (2000) 39 (D. Costa), and on Hdbk. N. Amer. Indians XIII. (2001) 545 (D. Parks) The OP form is in Dorsey 1890. Note also Creek Pa-ni-ma-hu and Shawnee pa:nimoho. Alan From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 22 22:55:23 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 17:55:23 -0500 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Koontz John E : > On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > > Only in the sense that initial short vowels come and go unpredictably with > > tribe names in M-I (and elsewhere in central Algonquian). It can't be > normal > > phonological processes, since word-initial short vowels are *not* deleted > by > > sound law in old Illinois. In the modern (19th century) language, yes. > > > > Incidentally, this word never would have been */oma(:)ha/ in > Miami-Illinois, > > since word-initial short /o/ is not allowed in the language. If it ever > had > > an initial V, it only could have been /a/. But no name for the Omaha is > > attested in any Miami-Illinois source, other than Marquette's map. > > > > There *is* an attested name for the Omaha in Shawnee, though: /maha/, > plural > > /mahaaki/. > > So perhaps the form Maha may owe more to sporadic deletion of short > initial vowels in Miami-Illinois Unlikely, in light of what Dave said. It's in the most recent records of the language that we see this loss than to any hearing problem on the part > of Lewis & Clark (as I first thought, some years ago) or to French > truncated names (as I've wondered more recently) or to reanalysis of o- as > French aux (as I wondered over the weekend)? > > I take it we can assume that Shawnee is not a particularly likely source > for Marquette's Maha listing - more likely Ojibwe or Miami-Illinois? Yes. In fact, it was most likely given to Marquette at the Peoria villages on the Des Moines in the last week of June 1673. Marquette did collect as much geographical and demographical info as he could while stationed on Lake Superior, but it seems doubtful that the Ottawa had a name for the Omaha. Anything's possible. But it was probably at the Peoria villages that Marquette recorded < Maha > and in fact all the rest of the names for peoples living at that time in the Missouri watershed. Michael I'm > not aware of any of the relevant or even irrelevant Siouan languages > having any problems with initial vowels, short or long. > > JEK > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 22 23:07:12 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 18:07:12 -0500 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Koontz John E : > On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > > He acquired the tribal name for his map while exploring the Mississippi. > > There's no telling how many tribes the name might have filtered through > before > > getting to the Illinois Algonquians. > > True, but the simplest assumption is that it filtered along the Missouri > and up and down the Mississippi, or across Iowa-Minnesota-Wisconsin to the > Mississippi and Great Lakes to the places where he might most logically > have encountered it. We have a general idea what the list of languages > would have been, in these cases, and we know his main contact languages, > too. Of course, there are some anomalies like the mysterious Michigamea > language to warn us that we don't have all the cards from the original > deck. > > True, but it's also clear that the Marquette generation knew next to nothing about the Michigamea, who, rather than flee to Wisconsin or southeast Missouri, went down the Mississippi, as you know, when the Seneca and their buddies pushed their catastrophe to the west. The Illinois-French dictionary says that the Kaw knew the Michigamea by the name <8arakia>, which, as Bob pointed out a few years ago, is not analyzable in Siouan. However, this spelling is a dead-ringer for Old Illinois /waarahkia/ 'cave country person'. I've suggested in a piece of writing yet to be published that the term may apply to the lower Ohio. Michael > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 22 23:00:46 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 18:00:46 -0500 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: <005001c41037$51d8b9a0$1bb5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Quoting "R. Rankin" : > > I take it we can assume that Shawnee is not a particularly likely source > > for Marquette's Maha listing - more likely Ojibwe or Miami-Illinois? I'm > > not aware of any of the relevant or even irrelevant Siouan languages > > having any problems with initial vowels, short or long. > > He acquired the tribal name for his map while exploring the Mississippi. > There's no telling how many tribes the name might have filtered through > before > getting to the Illinois Algonquians. The Peoria and other MI groups, including the Moingwena and the Wea, were transmissippian (that is, *west* trans) inhabitants for a couple of generations, as were other MI groups off and on throughout the mid-1600s. It was, of course, a nice, safe residential option that satisfied the Iroquois, although it's not clear how these groups related to their Siouan neighbors, aside from the Missouria. Michael > > Bob > > > From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Tue Mar 23 00:04:57 2004 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:04:57 -0800 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: <1079996832.405f71a0ee9ca@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Interesting that the Seneca name for the Cherokee is oyata'ke:a', which means 'cave people'. The second half of it looks a little like waarahkia, but that must be a coincidence. Was there any particular area in which people lived in caves? --Wally > True, but it's also clear that the Marquette generation knew next to > nothing about the Michigamea, who, rather than flee to Wisconsin or > southeast Missouri, went down the Mississippi, as you know, when the > Seneca and their buddies pushed their catastrophe to the west. The > Illinois-French dictionary says that the Kaw knew the Michigamea by the > name <8arakia>, which, as Bob pointed out a few years ago, is not > analyzable in Siouan. However, this spelling is a dead-ringer for Old > Illinois /waarahkia/ 'cave country person'. I've suggested in a piece of > writing yet to be published that the term may apply to the lower Ohio. > > Michael From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 23 01:09:23 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 18:09:23 -0700 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: <1079996832.405f71a0ee9ca@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > True, but it's also clear that the Marquette generation knew next to nothing > about the Michigamea, who, rather than flee to Wisconsin or southeast > Missouri, went down the Mississippi, as you know, ... My imprecision. I only meant that the existence of the Michigamea in the general area in proto-historic times, speaking an apparently non-Algonquian language, suggests that we shouldn't too blandly assume that we know everything about the linguistic conduit transmitting names from the lower Missouri to Illinois, just because we know a fair bit about Algonquian and Siouan languages of the area that survived into the era of linguistic investigation. Of course, Michigamea may be a fairly garden variety Mississippi Valley language, but the fragments that survive are so limited and poorly glossed, and the context of the preservation so just plain weird that I hate to be very definite about that. (If anyone is wondering what on earth I am talking about, see http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/michigamea.htm.) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 23 01:27:02 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 18:27:02 -0700 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: <1079996123.405f6edb23fae@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > Only in the sense that initial short vowels come and go unpredictably > with tribe names in M-I (and elsewhere in central Algonquian). It can't > be normal phonological processes, since word-initial short vowels are > *not* deleted by sound law in old Illinois. In the modern (19th century) > language, yes. And then John Koontz said: > So perhaps the form Maha may owe more to sporadic deletion of short > initial vowels in Miami-Illinois To which Michael McCafferty replied: > Unlikely, in light of what Dave said. It's in the most recent records of the > language that we see this loss I guess I misunderstood David. I thought he meant that deletion of initial short vowels (which he said would have to be a-, not o-) was irregular - not rule governed - in Old Illinois ethnonyms but now is regular. So what he meant was that they were not deleted at all in Old Illinois (when we would expect amaha), but now they are deleted sporadically? I can certainly think of a few presumptive Old Illinois ethnonyms without initial a. Perhaps it's only some that have the a? So if Old Illinois speakers got their hands on omaha or umaha (to neglect nasality), they would normally be expected produce amaha? And we only know that they may perhaps have used maha because of Marquette's map, because otherwise their form for Omaha is unknown? So, in fact, we don't know if they substituted a, lopped off o or u themselves, borrowed a pre-lopped form, or, quite arbitrarily pronounced it Apalachicola, which Marquette only misheard as Maha, because the toothless old man who mentioned it mumbled? Drat! Out of curiosity, what is the modern MI form for Omaha? From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Mar 23 03:52:57 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 19:52:57 -0800 Subject: (O)maha Message-ID: > I guess I misunderstood David. I thought he meant that deletion of initial > short vowels (which he said would have to be a-, not o-) was irregular - not > rule governed - in Old Illinois ethnonyms but now is regular. No no no. What I meant is that ethnonyms in old Illinois all seem to lack word-initial short vowels where the sister languages (often) have them. Like Illinois /saakiiwa/ 'Sauk', but Ojibwe /ozaagii/, Shawnee /ho0aaki/, but Sauk /(o)0aakiiwa/. Or, another example, Illinois /$aaha/ 'Sioux', but Fox & Sauk /a$aaha/, Kickapoo /wasaaha/, but Shawnee /saha/. But aside from a few bird names which are probably onomatopoeic, these are the ONLY words in old Illinois that lack initial short vowels that the sister languages have. Illinois doesn't delete any other initial short vowels. In modern Miami & Peoris (circa 1800 & after), word-initial short vowels are often deleted, but not obligatorily. They seem to have been retained in careful speech, at least with the more fluent speakers. Either way, an old Illinois tribe name with a deleted vowel will always lack the vowel in the modern language. > So what he meant was that they were not deleted at all in Old Illinois (when > we would expect amaha), but now they are deleted sporadically? No, I'm just saying that word-initial short V retention is simply irregular with tribe names. They constitute an exception. But the sister languages do the same thing: note the missing initial vowels for the Shawnee name for the Sioux above, or the optional deletion of the vowel in the Sauks' name for themselves. > I can certainly think of a few presumptive Old Illinois ethnonyms without > initial a. Perhaps it's only some that have the a? In fact, all Illinois tribe names that I can find lack these short vowels. But there are several names that are only documented in the modern language, so the rule might have had exceptions. > So if Old Illinois speakers got their hands on omaha or umaha (to neglect > nasality), they would normally be expected produce amaha? Word-initial Proto-Algonquian */o/ (*/we/ really) becomes /a/ in all records of Illinois and Miami. So if it kept the V, it'd be */ama(a)ha/. But if Illinois made a policy of deleting those vowels from tribe names, it'd be */ma(a)ha/. > And we only know that they may perhaps have used maha because of Marquette's > map, because otherwise their form for Omaha is unknown? So, in fact, we don't > know if they substituted a, lopped off o or u themselves, borrowed a > pre-lopped form, or, quite arbitrarily pronounced it Apalachicola, which > Marquette only misheard as Maha, because the toothless old man who mentioned > it mumbled? > Drat! > Out of curiosity, what is the modern MI form for Omaha? None is attested, sadly. Dave From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Mar 23 11:16:02 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 06:16:02 -0500 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: <24638484.1079971497@[192.168.2.34]> Message-ID: Speculation upon speculation, the gateway to all delusion! But here goes: My sense is that the Michigamea, although as John has pointed out the evidence is muy thin, were Dhegiha speakers and, as the Old Illinois name for the Ohio River /akaansasiipi/ indicates, the Dhegiha were associated with the Ohio River at least by the second half of the 17th century, and they might have been the folks who build Angel Mounds and/or the Caborn-Welborn folks (although there is certainly no agreement on that among archaeologists, many of whom like to see all of Middle Mississippian as Muskogean. But anyway...). Right down the river from these sites (which are in extreme southwestern Indiana) one finds on the right side of the Ohio (going downstream) cave country (Cave-in-Rock of Walt Disney's Davy Crockett fame is one of these well known caves). But the hill country of southern Illinois near the Ohio has many a cave and rock shelter. Michael On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, Wallace Chafe wrote: > Interesting that the Seneca name for the Cherokee is oyata'ke:a', which > means 'cave people'. The second half of it looks a little like waarahkia, > but that must be a coincidence. Was there any particular area in which > people lived in caves? > --Wally > > > True, but it's also clear that the Marquette generation knew next to > > nothing about the Michigamea, who, rather than flee to Wisconsin or > > southeast Missouri, went down the Mississippi, as you know, when the > > Seneca and their buddies pushed their catastrophe to the west. The > > Illinois-French dictionary says that the Kaw knew the Michigamea by the > > name <8arakia>, which, as Bob pointed out a few years ago, is not > > analyzable in Siouan. However, this spelling is a dead-ringer for Old > > Illinois /waarahkia/ 'cave country person'. I've suggested in a piece of > > writing yet to be published that the term may apply to the lower Ohio. > > > > Michael > > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 23 16:43:43 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 09:43:43 -0700 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > > Out of curiosity, what is the modern MI form for Omaha? > > None is attested, sadly. Thanks, this was quite helpful! I guess in the context I would sum it up that the only attestation in any way, shape, or form of 'Omaha' in Miami-Illinois of any age at all is the maha(s) on the Marquette map, which is only presumably of MI origin. However, MI seems to delete short vowels from the initials of ethnonyms, pretty much across the board, even in the Old Illinois stage, and more recently also from other kinds of words, so that it is not implausible that omaha or umaha would be reduced to (?) maha. If it weren't reduced, one would expect (?) amaha, because of constraints on possible initial vowels. Maha, plural mahaaki, is attested in Shawnee. All of this allows us to suspect that the convention of referring to the Omahas as Mahas may have originated in Miami-Illinois, though there are a few missing links in the evidence. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 23 16:51:20 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 09:51:20 -0700 Subject: Dakota (Re: (O)maha) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > No no no. What I meant is that ethnonyms in old Illinois all seem to lack > word-initial short vowels where the sister languages (often) have them. Like > Illinois /saakiiwa/ 'Sauk', but Ojibwe /ozaagii/, Shawnee /ho0aaki/, but > Sauk /(o)0aakiiwa/. Or, another example, Illinois /$aaha/ 'Sioux', but Fox & > Sauk /a$aaha/, Kickapoo /wasaaha/, but Shawnee /saha/. And, to bring things full circle, this last is the usual Dhegiha, Ioway-Otoe, Winnebago, and maybe Mandan term for the Dakota or "Sioux." Cf. Omaha-Ponca s^aaN', though pretty much everybody else keeps the medial h. It is sometimes mistaken for the s^ahi(ya) 'some kind of Algonquian' term in the anthropological or archaeological literature, which is a tempting comparison, but there's no way obvious to me to connect *s^ahaN and *s^ahi other than by resemblance. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Tue Mar 23 17:04:46 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 11:04:46 -0600 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > All of this allows us to suspect that the convention of referring to the > Omahas as Mahas may have originated in Miami-Illinois, though there are a > few missing links in the evidence. So, did MI borrow a Dhegiha name and drop the o- in the process, by analogy with their various a-less ethnonyms? (I assume borrowing went in that direction, Siouan to Algonquian, in the case of the various s^ah-/sah- names.) Alan From rankin at ku.edu Tue Mar 23 17:06:04 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 11:06:04 -0600 Subject: (O)maha Message-ID: I don't have a view on the Michigamea but I tend to agree with the Ohio Valley hypothesis for Dhegiha origins for a variety of reasons, most of which I've expressed on the list at one time or another. I won't repeat here. Caves are prominent features of virtually all the major river bluffs of Mid-America. The Missouri bluffs and those along the lower Kansas (Kaw) river are riddled with them. They're widely used in the Kansas City area as warehouses since the temperature and humidity are very stable. And other caves are found along the MO. down to its mouth. I'd have to say though, that I don't know of any evidence of their use as abodes by Indian people in the historical period. FWIW. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Mccafferty" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 5:16 AM Subject: Re: (O)maha > > > Speculation upon speculation, the gateway to all delusion! > > But here goes: > > My sense is that the Michigamea, although as John has pointed out the > evidence is muy thin, were Dhegiha speakers and, as the Old Illinois > name for the Ohio River /akaansasiipi/ indicates, the Dhegiha were > associated with the Ohio River at least by the second half of the 17th > century, and they might have been the folks who build Angel Mounds and/or > the Caborn-Welborn folks (although there is certainly no agreement on > that among archaeologists, many of whom like to see all of Middle > Mississippian as Muskogean. But anyway...). Right down the river from > these sites (which are in extreme southwestern Indiana) one finds on the > right side of the Ohio (going downstream) cave country (Cave-in-Rock of > Walt Disney's Davy Crockett fame is one of these well known caves). But > the hill country of southern Illinois near the Ohio has many a cave and > rock shelter. > > Michael > > > On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, Wallace Chafe wrote: > > Interesting that the Seneca name for the Cherokee is oyata'ke:a', which > > means 'cave people'. The second half of it looks a little like waarahkia, > > but that must be a coincidence. Was there any particular area in which > > people lived in caves? > > --Wally > > > > > True, but it's also clear that the Marquette generation knew next to > > > nothing about the Michigamea, who, rather than flee to Wisconsin or > > > southeast Missouri, went down the Mississippi, as you know, when the > > > Seneca and their buddies pushed their catastrophe to the west. The > > > Illinois-French dictionary says that the Kaw knew the Michigamea by the > > > name <8arakia>, which, as Bob pointed out a few years ago, is not > > > analyzable in Siouan. However, this spelling is a dead-ringer for Old > > > Illinois /waarahkia/ 'cave country person'. I've suggested in a piece of > > > writing yet to be published that the term may apply to the lower Ohio. > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Mar 23 17:16:55 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 09:16:55 -0800 Subject: (O)maha Message-ID: That's what I think is most likely. Dave >> All of this allows us to suspect that the convention of referring to the >> Omahas as Mahas may have originated in Miami-Illinois, though there are a few >> missing links in the evidence. > So, did MI borrow a Dhegiha name and drop the o- in the process, by analogy > with their various a-less ethnonyms? From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 23 18:12:20 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 11:12:20 -0700 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: <40606E2E.1050601@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > So, did MI borrow a Dhegiha name and drop the o- in the process, by > analogy with their various a-less ethnonyms? I guess the answer as I understand it is, "Probably." However, the evidence is somewhat indirect. > (I assume borrowing went in that direction, Siouan to Algonquian, in the > case of the various s^ah-/sah- names.) It's pretty clear that the *maNhaN morpheme is Siouan, albeit restricted to Mississippi Valley south of Dakota. It's not widely attested as a free form, and the form umaNhaN ~ omaNhaN is rare outside of the ethnonym, but the meanings of the root and the form omaNhaN are clear. As far as *s^ahaN, which doesn't have any clear meaning other than 'Dakota person(s)', I'd guess the source was Siouan, since it seems more likely that Algonquian would have lost the nasal in borrowing the form than than Siouan would have innovated it. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Mar 23 18:19:26 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 10:19:26 -0800 Subject: Shaaha Message-ID: Moreover, /$aaha/ is a pretty abnormal word shape from the perspective of Algonquian (most Algonquian, anyway), but pretty normal for Siouan. Dave > As far as *s^ahaN, which doesn't have any clear meaning other than 'Dakota > person(s)', I'd guess the source was Siouan, since it seems more likely > that Algonquian would have lost the nasal in borrowing the form than than > Siouan would have innovated it. > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Mar 24 10:35:11 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 05:35:11 -0500 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just to drive this whole issue into the ground, here is the list of Marquette's tribe names for the more or less Missouri and Arkansas watersheds: Missouri River area: Otontanta, Pana, Maha, Pah8tet, Paniassa, Kansa, Moing8ena, Pe8area, 8chage, 8emess8rit Arkansas River area: Atotchasi, Matora, Akoroa, Papikaha, 8mam8eta, Tanika, Paniassa, Aiaichi, Metchigamea, Akansea If anyone knows, I'm interested in "Pah8tet". Many of these show up Parks and DeMaillie's volume of HNAI, so perhaps I should check that first. Michael On Tue, 23 Mar 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > > > Out of curiosity, what is the modern MI form for Omaha? > > > > None is attested, sadly. > > Thanks, this was quite helpful! I guess in the context I would sum it up > that the only attestation in any way, shape, or form of 'Omaha' in > Miami-Illinois of any age at all is the maha(s) on the Marquette map, > which is only presumably of MI origin. However, MI seems to delete short > vowels from the initials of ethnonyms, pretty much across the board, even > in the Old Illinois stage, and more recently also from other kinds of > words, so that it is not implausible that omaha or umaha would be reduced > to (?) maha. > > If it weren't reduced, one would expect (?) amaha, because of constraints > on possible initial vowels. > > Maha, plural mahaaki, is attested in Shawnee. > > All of this allows us to suspect that the convention of referring to the > Omahas as Mahas may have originated in Miami-Illinois, though there are a > few missing links in the evidence. > > JEK > > > From rankin at ku.edu Wed Mar 24 14:50:57 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 08:50:57 -0600 Subject: (O)maha Message-ID: > If anyone knows, I'm interested in "Pah8tet". Many of these show up Parks > and DeMaillie's volume of HNAI, so perhaps I should check that first. That would be "baxoje" -- the Ioway -- but without the voicing of the initial unaspirated /p/ to [b] and the palatalization of the unaspirated /t/ to [j] found today. Bob From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Mar 24 15:00:38 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 09:00:38 -0600 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Michael Mccafferty wrote: > If anyone knows, I'm interested in "Pah8tet". Many of these show up Parks > and DeMaillie's volume of HNAI, so perhaps I should check that first. Besides the cites in HAI, this is what I've got: PAHOJA NEWS drafting, etym. From the Iowa self-designation p(h)axodz^e; cf. Otoe pa:xodz^e and related Dhegiha names. note: the meanings 'gray noses/heads' (with initial p aspirated) and 'gray snow' (initial unaspirated) are phonetically permissible if not semantically convincing. [based on emails from John Koontz and Robt. Rankin, 3-4 Mar. 99, and on Hdbk. N. Amer. Indians XIII. (2001) 446/1] --- 1673 J. MARQUETTE ms. map of Mississippi River reproduced in Coll. Hist. Soc. Wisconsin XVI. (1902) fol. p. 88 Pah8tet 1844 J. H. CARLETON Prairie Logbooks (1983) 66 The Indian name of this tribe is Pa-ha-cae; literally, Dirty Faces. They neither call themselves Ioways, nor are they called so by their neighbours. ahh 04/2002 1853 H. R. SCHOOLCRAFT Indian Tribes III. 262 The Iowas are, among themselves, and also among the neighboring tribes, called "Pa hu cha," or "Dusty nose." When they separated from the first Indian tribe, or family, to hunt game, their first location was near the mouth of a river, where there were large sand bars, from which the wind blew quantities of sand or dust upon their faces 1858 H. LUDEWIG Literature Amer. aboriginal Languages 140 OTO... They are divided into Otoes and Pahoja. Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 24 18:06:38 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 11:06:38 -0700 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: <4061A296.8090004@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > 1844 J. H. CARLETON Prairie Logbooks (1983) 66 > The Indian name of this tribe is Pa-ha-cae; literally, Dirty Faces. They > neither call themselves Ioways, nor are they called so by their neighbours. > ahh 04/2002 The Iowa(y) name is from French Aiouez, which is is probably from Dakotan Ayuxwa or Ayuxwe or Ayuxba. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 24 18:30:33 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 11:30:33 -0700 Subject: Lewis & Clark Phonetic Alphabet (Re: (O)maha) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The Iowa(y) name is from French Aiouez, which is is probably from Dakotan > Ayuxwa or Ayuxwe or Ayuxba. Incidentally, this is a good example of the syllable spelling approach to rendering "foreign" words in American English. Aiouez (which is pretty close to the Dakotan Ayuxwe variant) has apparently been rendered in English as I-o-wa, literally or conceptualy, pronounced [ayowe]. More recently the desyllabified version is pronounced [ayow] following majority conventions for sequences like Iowa. The spelling Ioway is intended to restore or preserve the older, more correct pronunciation, which is no longer correct (or is at least very regional) for the state of Iowa. Similar repronunciations of syllabic transcriptions according to desyllabified norms account for things like Nebraska [nbrsk] for ne-bras-ka maybe rendering Ioway-Otoe niN braske (or niN brake or niN brahke). (It might possibly render Omaha-Ponca niN bdhaska, but -a tends to be -e (ay) in early syllable spellings, and the e for i (ee) gives things away. If e is [i], a tends to be [e], and only a in closed syllables, like bras or kar is [a].)) On the other hand, the French transcription Niobrara - for niN obrara (IO) or niN obdhadha (OP) - is now pronounced [nayobreir] as far as I know. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Mar 24 18:41:20 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 10:41:20 -0800 Subject: (O)maha Message-ID: By the 1800's, that's the standard Algonquian name for the Ioways as well; for example, Miami aayohoowia, Shawnee haayawhhowe, and Sauk a:yohowe:wa, and Menominee ayo:ho:wE:w. I suspect that Illinois speakers were among the first of the central Algonquians to encounter many of these Siouan tribes, since in the oldest records, Illinois often has Siouan names for these tribes that are later replaced by more normal 'Algonquian' names. in addition to these 'Ioway' names, another example is the name for the Hochunks; in Illinois, they're variously known as <8ndakia> or <8ndankia>, which is clearly the Siouan name, but by the 1820's on they're only known by the Miami-Illinois name wiinipiikwa. Dave > On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: >> 1844 J. H. CARLETON Prairie Logbooks (1983) 66 >> The Indian name of this tribe is Pa-ha-cae; literally, Dirty Faces. They >> neither call themselves Ioways, nor are they called so by their neighbours. >> ahh 04/2002 > > The Iowa(y) name is from French Aiouez, which is is probably from Dakotan > Ayuxwa or Ayuxwe or Ayuxba. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 24 19:58:02 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 12:58:02 -0700 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > I suspect that Illinois speakers were among the first of the central > Algonquians to encounter many of these Siouan tribes, since in the oldest > records, Illinois often has Siouan names for these tribes that are later > replaced by more normal 'Algonquian' names. in addition to these 'Ioway' > names, another example is the name for the Hochunks; in Illinois, they're > variously known as <8ndakia> or <8ndankia>, which is clearly the Siouan > name, but by the 1820's on they're only known by the Miami-Illinois name > wiinipiikwa. It's interesting that the "Siouan" name seems to be based on something like (h)u(N)daNk-, i.e., maybe something like Omaha hu'ttaNge, instead of Winnebago hooc^aNk. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Mar 24 20:24:12 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 12:24:12 -0800 Subject: (O)maha Message-ID: Or Dakota /ho'taNke/, or Iowa-Otoe . Either the name was not borowed from Winnebago directly, or it was borrowed from Winnebago before that language had palatalized /t/ to /c/. We're talking at least 300 years ago, so the latter idea seems entirely possible. Dave >> I suspect that Illinois speakers were among the first of the central >> Algonquians to encounter many of these Siouan tribes, since in the oldest >> records, Illinois often has Siouan names for these tribes that are later >> replaced by more normal 'Algonquian' names. in addition to these 'Ioway' >> names, another example is the name for the Hochunks; in Illinois, they're >> variously known as <8ndakia> or <8ndankia>, which is clearly the Siouan name, >> but by the 1820's on they're only known by the Miami-Illinois name >> wiinipiikwa. > It's interesting that the "Siouan" name seems to be based on something like > (h)u(N)daNk-, i.e., maybe something like Omaha hu'ttaNge, instead of Winnebago > hooc^aNk. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 24 22:23:30 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 15:23:30 -0700 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > Or Dakota /ho'taNke/, or Iowa-Otoe . Although those have th (aspirated t). I thought Dhegiha -tt- ~ -ht- might be more likely to yield -d-. I'm not sure about the final e in the Dakotan form. Maybe -a? IO tunge is probably thaNe ~ thaNe, depending on dialect, as this is what happens to forms like *-thaNka in IO. Nobody know what this would have been in Michigamea, of course ... :-). > Either the name was not borowed from Winnebago directly, or it was > borrowed from Winnebago before that language had palatalized /t/ to /c/. > We're talking at least 300 years ago, so the latter idea seems entirely > possible. True, though I think Winnebago has had c^ in forms attested for about the last 200 of those years. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Mar 24 23:09:49 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 18:09:49 -0500 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At little ethnohistory may be useful. I don't know. Good archaeologists now at the cutting edge of our knowledge of the late prehistoric settlement patterns in the lower Midwest see the Miami-Illinois as coming out of the general pool of Algonquians situated near the west end of Lake Erie before ca. 1640. There's still a lot of foot-shuffling about where particular groups were, but there are, for example, strong correlations between what we know is proto-historic/early historic Illinois pottery and pottery (known as Ft. Meigs applique') made in the Maumee River valley in the 1500s. The gist is that the Iroqouian conflagration that swept through Huronia as well as south of Lake Erie in the 1600s pushed the Miami-Illinois and other folks (Sauk, Meskwaki, Kickapoo, Mascouten) from around the western end of Lake Erie either 1) across the Mississippi or 2) into Wisconsin. Now, Bob Hall, a good archaeologist, places the Winnebago at the south end of Lake Michigan in late prehistory. In addition archaeologists at the Glenn Black Lab at Indiana University have been finding, in late prehistory, interesting sites in western Indiana that suggest a Siouan/Algonquian interface. In fact, a Siouan presence at Strawtown on the upper White River of Indiana is common knowledge around here. Now, who these Siouans might have been is a good question. They could have been Winnebago coming down from the Kankakee area to hunt or Missouri valley Siouans chasing bison, which had first appeared in the Indiana area only in the 1400s. It should be noted, too, that the 1400s were a horrendous time to be alive in the Midwest. It appears that mostly people were dead. Michael On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > > Or Dakota /ho'taNke/, or Iowa-Otoe . > > Although those have th (aspirated t). I thought Dhegiha -tt- ~ -ht- might > be more likely to yield -d-. I'm not sure about the final e in the > Dakotan form. Maybe -a? IO tunge is probably thaNe ~ thaNe, > depending on dialect, as this is what happens to forms like *-thaNka in > IO. Nobody know what this would have been in Michigamea, of course ... > :-). > > > Either the name was not borowed from Winnebago directly, or it was > > borrowed from Winnebago before that language had palatalized /t/ to /c/. > > We're talking at least 300 years ago, so the latter idea seems entirely > > possible. > > True, though I think Winnebago has had c^ in forms attested for about the > last 200 of those years. > > > From rankin at ku.edu Thu Mar 25 01:10:38 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 19:10:38 -0600 Subject: (O)maha Message-ID: > In fact, a Siouan > presence at Strawtown on the upper White River of Indiana is common > knowledge around here. > Now, who these Siouans might have been is a good question. See my paper on Tutelo loan of the word for 'three/eight' into Illinois Algonquian in IJAL. It's pretty clear the Tutelo, Saponi, Moneton group came from somewhere in the north drainage area of the Ohio. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Mar 27 07:32:49 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 00:32:49 -0700 Subject: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Mar 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Speculation upon speculation, the gateway to all delusion! > My sense is that the Michigamea, although as John has pointed out the > evidence is muy thin, were Dhegiha speakers and, as the Old Illinois > name for the Ohio River /akaansasiipi/ indicates, the Dhegiha were > associated with the Ohio River at least by the second half of the 17th > century, ... Granted that there are only four words, it looks about halfway between Dhegiha and Ioway-Otoe. I might as well provide the forms: indage' ouai panis 'je suis indigne de vivre, je ne me'rite plus de porter le doux nom de pe're' (expressing guilt as to treatment of a son) 'I am unworthy to live, I no longer am worthy of the sweet name of father' tikalabe', houe' ni que' 'nous te croyons, tu as raison' 'we believe you, you are right' My suggestions for rendering these are derived from some insights of Bob Rankin (at least 'father' and 'think', as I recall, and maybe 'lack' as well), and come down to this: in- dage' ouai- pani- s i(N)- da'j^e we'- b-niN= s his father negative- I-am= negative 'I am not his father.' ti- kala- be' houe'- nigue' h-ti'-klaN= be we'- niNge= (s) you- think=plural negative- it-lacks= negative 'Your thinking is not lacking.' You could compare these with made up pseudo-Omaha-Ponca sentences: *i- dhadi b-dhiN=az^i his father I am negative *s^- nigdhaN=bi dhiNga= z^i you think plural it lacks negative There is no OP verb *dhigdhaN 'to think' that I know of, but OP has i'dhigdhaN 'to decide, to plan', and its nominalization we'dhigdhaN 'decision, plan, mind'. This has a dative i'gidhigdhaN 'to rule', and a compound miN'=dhigdhaN 'to think of women'. The form dhigdhaN' 'to marry' is probably unrelated. Note that OP requires the auxiliary maN 'I do' between the verb and the negative in the first person. I do not believe that either idhadi dhiN 'to be one's father' or dhigdhaN dhiNge 'to lack thinking' (or its negative) are idiomatic in any sense in OP, either. These examples simply show what hypothetically cognate OP forms would look like. In essence it is suggested that Michigamea (or Bossu's pidgin Michigamea) has the following elements: i(N)daj^e < *i(N)-tate 'his father'. Here iNdaj^e is more plausible as 'my father', or as an error for *idaj^e or *iraj^e or whatever the third person should have been. Or perhaps we should envision something like 'My father' [he-says] I-am-not [treated like that]. Compare OP iNdadi < *iN-tati 'my father', dhiadi < *ri-ati 'your father', idhadi < *i-(r)ati 'his father' (typical of Dhegiha), or IO hiNda(N)j^e < *iN-ta(N)te 'my father', naN'j^e < *r(i)-a(N)te 'your father', aNj^e < *(i-)a(N)te 'his father'. Note that IO hiNda(N)j^e 'my father' is archaic. Current is suppletive hiNka. *riN (*niN?) 'to be', attested in a first person bniN (bliN?) 'I am'. Compare OP dhiN 'be (of some kind)', bdhiN 'I am', (s^)niN 'you are', *dhiN 'he is', or IO n[y]iN 'be possessed of a quality'. I'm not sure what the inflection of this IO verb is. *riklaN (< *rukraN) 'to think, to engage in mental activity', attested in a second person plural (h)tikla(N)=be (or =bi) 'you-all think; your thinking'. Compare OP i'dhigdhaN < *i-ru-kraN 'to decide', inflected i'bdhigdhaN 'I decide', i'(s^)nigdhaN 'you decide', but notice Quapaw inflects di- < *ru- as p-di- 'I ...', t-ti- 'you ...'. Reduction of *s^- 'you (syncopated)' to preaspiration is a common tendency across Dhegiha, whether it leads to s^-ni- > h-ni- > ni- as in OP, or to *h-di- > t-ti- as in Quapaw. IO has rugra(N)' < *ru-kraN 'to consider, judge, think on, think that', inflected (ha)du'graN 'I think', (ra)sdu'graN 'you think'. ni(N)ge < *riNke' 'to lack'. Compare OP dhiNge' 'to lack', IO niNge, niNnye 'there is no'. In addition there is a negative that seems to be prefixal we- in one case, and circumfixal we-...-s in another. Perhaps the final -s is simply missing in error in the first case. Siouan negatives exhibit suffixed elements *=s^(i) and *=riN, sometimes separate, sometimes together, in one order or another, cf. Da =s^-niN but Mandan =riN-x ~ =xi (where x is an augmentive grade of the the fricative set s/s^/x). Dakotan has =s^(i) as an adversative enclitic 'also, indeed'. Dhegiha has *=z^i only as negative, with intrusive maN 'I do' in the first person. IO has =s^kun(y)iN. However, Winnebago has =niN 'negative' (and =z^i 'at least'), and =s^kuNniN as a dubitative. While the IO/Wi *=s^kuN-riN sequence probably includes the negative element *=riN, it may be that the older reading of *=s^kuN-riN was dubitative, and that the IO negative is an old dubitative. That is, perhaps Winnebago is more conservative than IO in this aspect of its morphology. Siouan negatives also sometimes exhibit a prefixal element combined with the suffix to make a negative circumfix. These prefixal elements are not cognate, but Mandan in particular exhibits wa-, with which compare the we- found in Michigamea. My inclination without "Michigamea" is to see the *=s^i or *=Si element in Siouan negatives as a sort of emphatic, not unlike French pas, etc., or English not (originally). This leaves *=riN, sometimes missing, as in Dhegiha as the negative element. If it is simply a form of *riN 'be', then perhaps the original negative is missing entirely, as in modern collquial French ... pas, etc., missing original ne, or, for that matter, modern English ... not, missing original prefixed ne, too. What Michigamea might contribute is a suspicion that the prefixal we- (Michigamea?), wa- (Mandan) represent the original negative. Not that we really need another wa- prefix, or even another we- prefix. I don't think any of this is inherently unreasonable, but even without getting into the somewhat odd contexts Bossu provides in his annecdotes, and other issues of that nature, these are plainly a bit difficult to be sure of. It looks Siouan to me, and it doesn't look Algonquian to the Algonquianists, but maybe it's really just mush. If it is Siouan, I hope I've shown that while Dhegiha generally, and on some points, Quapaw specifically, are useful in interpeting it, so is Ioway-Otoe, and the negative is really not at all like a Dhegiha negative. It's at least as much like a Mandan negative as a Dhegiha one, and otherwise it's at best reminiscent of the general character of a Siouan negative, especially if we concentrate on the suffixal -s, comparing it to *s^(i) and more or less ignore the prefixal we-. JEK From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sun Mar 28 18:28:15 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 20:28:15 +0200 Subject: oak (-tree) Message-ID: Can anybody tell me whether or not an expression for 'oak (-tree)' exists in Dakota/Lakota? Up to now I couldn't find any. Had it been left behind in the forests of their earlier history and been forgotten?? In Algonquian this word seems to still exist (although I can't remember it). Alfred From jfu at centrum.cz Sun Mar 28 13:00:51 2004 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 15:00:51 +0200 Subject: oak (-tree) In-Reply-To: <4067193F.6070409@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: > Can anybody tell me whether or not an expression for 'oak (-tree)' > exists in Dakota/Lakota? Up to now I couldn't find any. Riggs' Dakota dictionary gives: u'tahu = an oak tree Identical entry is given by Buechel and Deloria in their Lakota dictionaries. Additionaly Buechel gives: itu'hu = the black oak and Riggs: usku'yeca hu' = the white oak, Quercus alba Jan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Mar 28 19:25:07 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:25:07 -0700 Subject: oak (-tree) In-Reply-To: <4067193F.6070409@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: Actually, by chance we had discussion of oak terms not too long ago, probably just before Alfred joined the list. They were of particular interest because they sometimes involve multiple morphemes for 'tree'. This discussion can be retrieved from the archives of the Siouan list maintained at the LinguistList site (http://www.linguistlist.org). The address for searching the Siouan list (a good candidate for a favorite or even a desktop link) is: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=siouan This turns up, for example: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0401&L=siouan&P=R3934 http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0401&L=siouan&P=R4413 Incidentally, if searching for plant terms in Buechel in the English index, look under one of the "list" entries, e.g., "tree" in this case. I keep a list of lists on p. 660 for those cases where I forget the keyword Buechel uses! I also recommend Bruce Ingham's English to Teton dictionary (and Williamson's English to Santee). At various points Jan Ullrich and Connie Chmelnitsky have had online versions of the dictionary they are working on. Gilmore's Uses of Plants by the Indians of the Missouri River Region is in print I think, and available from the University of Nebraska Press. It looks like it's about $10 through various online vendors. I'm not sure how accessible this makes it outside of North America, however. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Mar 28 19:34:01 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 13:34:01 -0600 Subject: oak (-tree) In-Reply-To: <4067193F.6070409@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: Alfred W. Tüting wrote: > Can anybody tell me whether or not an expression for 'oak (-tree)' > exists in Dakota/Lakota? Up to now I couldn't find any. Had it been left > behind in the forests of their earlier history and been forgotten?? In > Algonquian this word seems to still exist (although I can't remember it). Ojibway mittikomi:z^ < mittikw- 'tree, stick, wood' + -mi:z^ '(nut- or berry-bearing) tree' Alan From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Mar 29 04:10:14 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:10:14 -0600 Subject: St. Louis? Message-ID: I'm wondering about the name for St. Louis in native languages. For OP, Dorsey has Ppa'hi-z^i'de, "Red Neck", as a term for the inhabitants. Fletcher and La Flesche give Ppahi'-z^ide ttoNwoN, "Red Hair town", with the note "Referring to the color of Governor Clark's hair". I've had it in mind that the latter explanation was confirmed by the Osage form, but I can't seem to find a reference. Can anyone point me to further information on this? I'd be especially interested knowing the name for it in Osage, Kaw, Iowa-Oto, or even Algonquian languages. The town was founded by French traders in 1764 and had its glory days as a special entity prior to its acquisition by the Americans in 1804. It seems odd to me that the Omaha or anyone else would have waited until the American period to name it after Governor Clark's hair. Thanks! Rory From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Mon Mar 29 06:22:43 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:22:43 +0200 Subject: oak (-tree) Message-ID: Thanks to all you folks for the input! My fault to being discouraged when - about a year ago and still unfamiliar with Buechel's dictionary - I couldn't retrieve this entry, and didn't try it again later :( (maybe, because it felt quite plausible that the D. had dropped this word). It seems that the word _u'tahu_ is composed of _u'ta_ - the hazelnut; acorns - and _hu_ - stem - (-> tree). _itu'hu_ maybe is 'wild tree' (wildly grown stem). Were there any trees cultivated by the Dakotas?? I also am wondering whether the expression for _itu'hu_ - a stone used to break bones or pound berries; the frontal (B) is nothing but a homophone. Again, many thanks! Alfred From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Mar 29 17:08:40 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:08:40 -0800 Subject: St. Louis? Message-ID: All I know about the name for St. Louis in Algonquian is that the Shawnee name for it is peenhko (Gatschet's ), and the Mesquakie form is pe:ko:neki (a locative). These are apparently borrowings from French 'Pain Court'. However, it's been so long since I thought about this, I can't remember at the moment why it was named after 'Pain Court', or what 'Pain Court' really meant. I think somewhere there's an article that explains this. Bob, does this ring a bell? Dave Costa > > I'm wondering about the name for St. Louis in native languages. For OP, > Dorsey has Ppa'hi-z^i'de, "Red Neck", as a term for the inhabitants. > Fletcher and La Flesche give Ppahi'-z^ide ttoNwoN, "Red Hair town", with > the note "Referring to the color of Governor Clark's hair". I've had it in > mind that the latter explanation was confirmed by the Osage form, but I > can't seem to find a reference. Can anyone point me to further information > on this? I'd be especially interested knowing the name for it in Osage, > Kaw, Iowa-Oto, or even Algonquian languages. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 29 17:56:59 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:56:59 -0500 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Pain Court means "short bread". There is a folk-etymology roaming around (perhaps in the article referenced below) that says that the term means "short of bread". But that's just what it is. The name means "short bread". I believe the name occurs elsewhere in the Francophone word, maybe in Ontario. It is not a surname as far as I know. Michael On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > All I know about the name for St. Louis in Algonquian is that the Shawnee > name for it is peenhko (Gatschet's ), and the Mesquakie form is > pe:ko:neki (a locative). These are apparently borrowings from French 'Pain > Court'. However, it's been so long since I thought about this, I can't > remember at the moment why it was named after 'Pain Court', or what 'Pain > Court' really meant. I think somewhere there's an article that explains > this. Bob, does this ring a bell? > > Dave Costa > > > > > I'm wondering about the name for St. Louis in native languages. For OP, > > Dorsey has Ppa'hi-z^i'de, "Red Neck", as a term for the inhabitants. > > Fletcher and La Flesche give Ppahi'-z^ide ttoNwoN, "Red Hair town", with > > the note "Referring to the color of Governor Clark's hair". I've had it in > > mind that the latter explanation was confirmed by the Osage form, but I > > can't seem to find a reference. Can anyone point me to further information > > on this? I'd be especially interested knowing the name for it in Osage, > > Kaw, Iowa-Oto, or even Algonquian languages. > > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Mar 29 18:11:51 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:11:51 -0800 Subject: St. Louis? Message-ID: Yes, but WHY was St. Louis called 'short bread'? That was what I was wondering. David > Pain Court means "short bread". > > There is a folk-etymology roaming around (perhaps in the article > referenced below) that says that the term means "short of bread". > But that's just what it is. > > The name means "short bread". I believe the name occurs elsewhere in > the Francophone word, maybe in Ontario. It is not a surname as far as I > know. > > Michael > > > > On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > >> All I know about the name for St. Louis in Algonquian is that the Shawnee >> name for it is peenhko (Gatschet's ), and the Mesquakie form is >> pe:ko:neki (a locative). These are apparently borrowings from French 'Pain >> Court'. However, it's been so long since I thought about this, I can't >> remember at the moment why it was named after 'Pain Court', or what 'Pain >> Court' really meant. I think somewhere there's an article that explains >> this. Bob, does this ring a bell? >> >> Dave Costa >> >> > >> > I'm wondering about the name for St. Louis in native languages. For OP, >> > Dorsey has Ppa'hi-z^i'de, "Red Neck", as a term for the inhabitants. >> > Fletcher and La Flesche give Ppahi'-z^ide ttoNwoN, "Red Hair town", with >> > the note "Referring to the color of Governor Clark's hair". I've had it in >> > mind that the latter explanation was confirmed by the Osage form, but I >> > can't seem to find a reference. Can anyone point me to further information >> > on this? I'd be especially interested knowing the name for it in Osage, >> > Kaw, Iowa-Oto, or even Algonquian languages. >> > > > > From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Mon Mar 29 18:19:34 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 19:19:34 +0100 Subject: St. Louis? Message-ID: Dear all: Dave's thinking of the Allan Taylor article in the Festschrift for Christoph Wolfart, which deals with the origin of the word for 'Mexican; in Arapaho and Gros Ventre. Anthony >>> pankihtamwa at earthlink.net 29/03/2004 18:08:40 >>> All I know about the name for St. Louis in Algonquian is that the Shawnee name for it is peenhko (Gatschet's ), and the Mesquakie form is pe:ko:neki (a locative). These are apparently borrowings from French 'Pain Court'. However, it's been so long since I thought about this, I can't remember at the moment why it was named after 'Pain Court', or what 'Pain Court' really meant. I think somewhere there's an article that explains this. Bob, does this ring a bell? Dave Costa > > I'm wondering about the name for St. Louis in native languages. For OP, > Dorsey has Ppa'hi-z^i'de, "Red Neck", as a term for the inhabitants. > Fletcher and La Flesche give Ppahi'-z^ide ttoNwoN, "Red Hair town", with > the note "Referring to the color of Governor Clark's hair". I've had it in > mind that the latter explanation was confirmed by the Osage form, but I > can't seem to find a reference. Can anyone point me to further information > on this? I'd be especially interested knowing the name for it in Osage, > Kaw, Iowa-Oto, or even Algonquian languages. > From Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc Mon Mar 29 18:22:19 2004 From: Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc (Louis Garcia) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:22:19 -0600 Subject: Crow/ Hidatsa Videos In-Reply-To: <003201c406e9$254bd590$d200c90a@voced1> Message-ID: Hi gang: Last year I posted a message about the Hidatsa video which combined sign language and Hidatsa words. I just happened to see one video as it was being shown informally in a vacant room at last years AIHEC. This year at AIHEC (American Indian Higher Education Conference)held at Billings Montana, last week. Dr. Lanny Realbird presented the Crow and Hidatsa language videos. Anyone interested contact: Dr. Lanny Real Bird Little Big Horn College P.O. Box 370 Crow Agency, Mt 59022 lanny at lbhc.cc.mt.us He also had a video used to introduce the Crow culture to new educators employed at local schools. Aside from the clan information the video was relevant to most other plains tribes. I ordered a copy to show here at Spirit Lake. Toksta ake, Louie From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Mar 29 18:44:31 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:44:31 -0600 Subject: St. Louis? Message-ID: Well, the first part of that certainly looks promising. Could pain have been pronounced /paiN/ then, or would it be clearly /peN:/ ? If the former, it should be easy for an Omaha speaker to reinterpret it as pahiN' or pa'hi. The second part throws me though. I don't see how to get from Fr. court, 'short', to OP z^i'de, 'red', either by reinterpretation of the sound sequence or by calquing. Is there any possibility that the 't' in court would have been pronounced back then? Thanks for the comments! Rory Michael Mccafferty cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: St. Louis? owner-siouan at lists.c olorado.edu 03/29/2004 11:56 AM Please respond to siouan Pain Court means "short bread". There is a folk-etymology roaming around (perhaps in the article referenced below) that says that the term means "short of bread". But that's just what it is. The name means "short bread". I believe the name occurs elsewhere in the Francophone word, maybe in Ontario. It is not a surname as far as I know. Michael On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > All I know about the name for St. Louis in Algonquian is that the Shawnee > name for it is peenhko (Gatschet's ), and the Mesquakie form is > pe:ko:neki (a locative). These are apparently borrowings from French 'Pain > Court'. However, it's been so long since I thought about this, I can't > remember at the moment why it was named after 'Pain Court', or what 'Pain > Court' really meant. I think somewhere there's an article that explains > this. Bob, does this ring a bell? > > Dave Costa > > > > > I'm wondering about the name for St. Louis in native languages. For OP, > > Dorsey has Ppa'hi-z^i'de, "Red Neck", as a term for the inhabitants. > > Fletcher and La Flesche give Ppahi'-z^ide ttoNwoN, "Red Hair town", with > > the note "Referring to the color of Governor Clark's hair". I've had it in > > mind that the latter explanation was confirmed by the Osage form, but I > > can't seem to find a reference. Can anyone point me to further information > > on this? I'd be especially interested knowing the name for it in Osage, > > Kaw, Iowa-Oto, or even Algonquian languages. > > From rankin at ku.edu Mon Mar 29 18:51:58 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:51:58 -0600 Subject: St. Louis? Message-ID: > Is there any possibility that the 't' in court would have been pronounced back then? No, I don't think so, although, in Provencal dialects or others, anything is possible. Catalans in Rousillon might pronounce it even today. It is maintained in the feminine, of course. Someone may have cataloged the parts of France represented in the various expeditions, but I'd expect there were quite a few voyageurs whose origins are unknown. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Mon Mar 29 18:56:39 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:56:39 -0600 Subject: St. Louis? Message-ID: > I can't remember at the moment why it was named after 'Pain Court', or what 'Pain Court' really meant. I think somewhere there's an article that explains this. Bob, does this ring a bell? 'Fraid not, unless it's a reference to SHORT-BREAD. But I would expect that expression to have originated in English. (Do the French call baking fats by the name "shortening"?). One of the OED guys on the list could attack that angle. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Mon Mar 29 19:08:10 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:08:10 -0600 Subject: oak (-tree) Message-ID: > Actually, by chance we had discussion of oak terms not too long ago, probably just before Alfred joined the list. They were of particular interest because they sometimes involve multiple morphemes for 'tree'. This discussion can be retrieved from the archives of the Siouan list maintained at the LinguistList site (http://www.linguistlist.org). The various 'oak' words in the Siouan languages tend to have to do with either ACORNS or basketry (using oaken slats/strips). A number of terms have areal distribution, existing in both Siouan and Muskogean-speaking territory. Gilmore is a good place to start, and, yes, there is a fairly recent reprinting. Bob From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Mar 29 19:18:39 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:18:39 -0600 Subject: St. Louis? Message-ID: > Could pain have been pronounced /paiN/ then, or would it > be clearly /peN:/ ? If the former, it should be easy > for an Omaha speaker to reinterpret it as pahiN' or > pa'hi. > > The second part throws me though. I don't see how to > get from Fr. court, 'short', to OP z^i'de, 'red', either > by reinterpretation of the sound sequence or by calquing. > Is there any possibility that the 't' in court would have > been pronounced back then? Well here's an outside possibility! There is an entry in Francis La Flesche's Osage dictionary: zhiN'da, it was not. I've never run across this in OP, and there doesn't seem to be any elaboration on it in the Osage dictionary either. So my highly dubious speculation is: Fr. pain court "short (of?) bread" => Os. paiN zhiNda "the bread was not" => OP pa'hi zhi'de "red neck" pahiN' zhide "red hair" the latter interpretation coming into vogue with Governor Clark. This speculation depends on favorable answers to three questions: 1. Is the folk interpretation, pain court = "short of bread", really possible in French? 2. What was the actual meaning and use of Os. zhiNda ? 3. Did the Osage borrow Fr. pain as /paiN/ to mean bread? In OP, all things bread, dough and wheat are covered by wamuske. In the Osage dictionary, I see this word used only once, in reference to a wheat field. I don't see any reference to "bread" in the dictionary, which might suggest that it was a loan word ignored by La Flesche. Rory From rankin at ku.edu Mon Mar 29 19:35:43 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:35:43 -0600 Subject: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) Message-ID: I really can't take credit for any of John's very thorough analysis. I may have noted the resemblance of one or two of the words, but he's the one who has done all the work. I don't know what to make of Michigamea, such as it is. It's too bad we can't come up with just a few more words/phrases. That could be the clincher. The "negative" we- looks much more like the Algonquian negative wi(i) than anything Siouan, but I'm not in a position to say much more, I'm afraid. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Koontz John E [mailto:John.Koontz at colorado.edu] Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 1:33 AM To: Siouan List Subject: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) On Tue, 23 Mar 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Speculation upon speculation, the gateway to all delusion! > My sense is that the Michigamea, although as John has pointed out the > evidence is muy thin, were Dhegiha speakers and, as the Old Illinois > name for the Ohio River /akaansasiipi/ indicates, the Dhegiha were > associated with the Ohio River at least by the second half of the 17th > century, ... Granted that there are only four words, it looks about halfway between Dhegiha and Ioway-Otoe. I might as well provide the forms: indage' ouai panis 'je suis indigne de vivre, je ne me'rite plus de porter le doux nom de pe're' (expressing guilt as to treatment of a son) 'I am unworthy to live, I no longer am worthy of the sweet name of father' tikalabe', houe' ni que' 'nous te croyons, tu as raison' 'we believe you, you are right' My suggestions for rendering these are derived from some insights of Bob Rankin (at least 'father' and 'think', as I recall, and maybe 'lack' as well), and come down to this: in- dage' ouai- pani- s i(N)- da'j^e we'- b-niN= s his father negative- I-am= negative 'I am not his father.' ti- kala- be' houe'- nigue' h-ti'-klaN= be we'- niNge= (s) you- think=plural negative- it-lacks= negative 'Your thinking is not lacking.' You could compare these with made up pseudo-Omaha-Ponca sentences: *i- dhadi b-dhiN=az^i his father I am negative *s^- nigdhaN=bi dhiNga= z^i you think plural it lacks negative There is no OP verb *dhigdhaN 'to think' that I know of, but OP has i'dhigdhaN 'to decide, to plan', and its nominalization we'dhigdhaN 'decision, plan, mind'. This has a dative i'gidhigdhaN 'to rule', and a compound miN'=dhigdhaN 'to think of women'. The form dhigdhaN' 'to marry' is probably unrelated. Note that OP requires the auxiliary maN 'I do' between the verb and the negative in the first person. I do not believe that either idhadi dhiN 'to be one's father' or dhigdhaN dhiNge 'to lack thinking' (or its negative) are idiomatic in any sense in OP, either. These examples simply show what hypothetically cognate OP forms would look like. In essence it is suggested that Michigamea (or Bossu's pidgin Michigamea) has the following elements: i(N)daj^e < *i(N)-tate 'his father'. Here iNdaj^e is more plausible as 'my father', or as an error for *idaj^e or *iraj^e or whatever the third person should have been. Or perhaps we should envision something like 'My father' [he-says] I-am-not [treated like that]. Compare OP iNdadi < *iN-tati 'my father', dhiadi < *ri-ati 'your father', idhadi < *i-(r)ati 'his father' (typical of Dhegiha), or IO hiNda(N)j^e < *iN-ta(N)te 'my father', naN'j^e < *r(i)-a(N)te 'your father', aNj^e < *(i-)a(N)te 'his father'. Note that IO hiNda(N)j^e 'my father' is archaic. Current is suppletive hiNka. *riN (*niN?) 'to be', attested in a first person bniN (bliN?) 'I am'. Compare OP dhiN 'be (of some kind)', bdhiN 'I am', (s^)niN 'you are', *dhiN 'he is', or IO n[y]iN 'be possessed of a quality'. I'm not sure what the inflection of this IO verb is. *riklaN (< *rukraN) 'to think, to engage in mental activity', attested in a second person plural (h)tikla(N)=be (or =bi) 'you-all think; your thinking'. Compare OP i'dhigdhaN < *i-ru-kraN 'to decide', inflected i'bdhigdhaN 'I decide', i'(s^)nigdhaN 'you decide', but notice Quapaw inflects di- < *ru- as p-di- 'I ...', t-ti- 'you ...'. Reduction of *s^- 'you (syncopated)' to preaspiration is a common tendency across Dhegiha, whether it leads to s^-ni- > h-ni- > ni- as in OP, or to *h-di- > t-ti- as in Quapaw. IO has rugra(N)' < *ru-kraN 'to consider, judge, think on, think that', inflected (ha)du'graN 'I think', (ra)sdu'graN 'you think'. ni(N)ge < *riNke' 'to lack'. Compare OP dhiNge' 'to lack', IO niNge, niNnye 'there is no'. In addition there is a negative that seems to be prefixal we- in one case, and circumfixal we-...-s in another. Perhaps the final -s is simply missing in error in the first case. Siouan negatives exhibit suffixed elements *=s^(i) and *=riN, sometimes separate, sometimes together, in one order or another, cf. Da =s^-niN but Mandan =riN-x ~ =xi (where x is an augmentive grade of the the fricative set s/s^/x). Dakotan has =s^(i) as an adversative enclitic 'also, indeed'. Dhegiha has *=z^i only as negative, with intrusive maN 'I do' in the first person. IO has =s^kun(y)iN. However, Winnebago has =niN 'negative' (and =z^i 'at least'), and =s^kuNniN as a dubitative. While the IO/Wi *=s^kuN-riN sequence probably includes the negative element *=riN, it may be that the older reading of *=s^kuN-riN was dubitative, and that the IO negative is an old dubitative. That is, perhaps Winnebago is more conservative than IO in this aspect of its morphology. Siouan negatives also sometimes exhibit a prefixal element combined with the suffix to make a negative circumfix. These prefixal elements are not cognate, but Mandan in particular exhibits wa-, with which compare the we- found in Michigamea. My inclination without "Michigamea" is to see the *=s^i or *=Si element in Siouan negatives as a sort of emphatic, not unlike French pas, etc., or English not (originally). This leaves *=riN, sometimes missing, as in Dhegiha as the negative element. If it is simply a form of *riN 'be', then perhaps the original negative is missing entirely, as in modern collquial French ... pas, etc., missing original ne, or, for that matter, modern English ... not, missing original prefixed ne, too. What Michigamea might contribute is a suspicion that the prefixal we- (Michigamea?), wa- (Mandan) represent the original negative. Not that we really need another wa- prefix, or even another we- prefix. I don't think any of this is inherently unreasonable, but even without getting into the somewhat odd contexts Bossu provides in his annecdotes, and other issues of that nature, these are plainly a bit difficult to be sure of. It looks Siouan to me, and it doesn't look Algonquian to the Algonquianists, but maybe it's really just mush. If it is Siouan, I hope I've shown that while Dhegiha generally, and on some points, Quapaw specifically, are useful in interpeting it, so is Ioway-Otoe, and the negative is really not at all like a Dhegiha negative. It's at least as much like a Mandan negative as a Dhegiha one, and otherwise it's at best reminiscent of the general character of a Siouan negative, especially if we concentrate on the suffixal -s, comparing it to *s^(i) and more or less ignore the prefixal we-. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 29 19:41:24 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:41:24 -0700 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D01233A38@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > I can't remember at the moment why it was named after 'Pain Court', or > what 'Pain Court' really meant. I think somewhere there's an article > that explains this. Bob, does this ring a bell? > > 'Fraid not, unless it's a reference to SHORT-BREAD. But I would expect > that expression to have originated in English. (Do the French call > baking fats by the name "shortening"?). One of the OED guys on the list > could attack that angle. I had an oral version of the paper on one or more occasions while helping with the computer end of the Gros Ventre dictionary. I think Allan's understanding is that pain court is more or less analogous to English "short commons" or maybe in this case "starvation town." In other words, bread was not so much short (without yeast?) as in shortage. It's interesting to consider that ppahiN (I think the nasalization is right here) z^ide might be related to pain cort, but it doesn't look like it holds up, and I've always assumed that Fletcher & LaFlesche were correct in asserting that it was a reference to Clark's residence there. PpahiN z^ide strikes me as a cross-linguistic pun raised to the level of a folk etymology and quite in line with Omaha humor. It reminds me of xidha z^e or xidha giaN for 'Friday', though there's only a translation there, no pun. (I guess that would be xuya c^he in Dakota.) I think hte practice of introducing slight permutations in words to produce new meanings for humorous effect are more or less universal. I remember it being obligatory in the dorms years ago to refer to certain brands of soda as Mountain Spew and Dr. Pecker, and though neither of these is quite as good a play on words as ppahi z^ide we were all impressed with our wittiness. (Similar things were done with other brands, but this sort of thing can easily get out of hand.) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 29 19:47:08 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:47:08 -0700 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Pain Court means "short bread". > > There is a folk-etymology roaming around (perhaps in the article > referenced below) that says that the term means "short of bread". > But that's just what it is. So, in other words, you think the name has another origin? I for one have never checked to see if it is an attested idiom in French. I stopped at the obvious. > The name means "short bread". I believe the name occurs elsewhere in > the Francophone word, maybe in Ontario. It is not a surname as far as I > know. Could it be a "dit name"? I've always assumed that surnames like Sanssouci were of that origin. I've wondered about LaFlesche (la fleche), too. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 29 19:52:25 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:52:25 -0700 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Anthony Grant wrote: > Dave's thinking of the Allan Taylor article in the Festschrift for > Christoph Wolfart, which deals with the origin of the word for 'Mexican; > in Arapaho and Gros Ventre. For those who don't know it, and without the Gros Ventre forms themselves, the Gros Ventre term for 'Mexican' is literally 'bread person'. This is commonly assumed by speakers to refer to tortillas, but Allan suggests it is a fossil reference to Paincourt, meaning 'someone from the Spanish city of Paincourt'. From rankin at ku.edu Mon Mar 29 19:48:13 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:48:13 -0600 Subject: St. Louis? Message-ID: > It's interesting to consider that ppahiN (I think the nasalization is right here) z^ide might be related to pain cort, but it doesn't look like it holds up, and I've always assumed that Fletcher & LaFlesche were correct in asserting that it was a reference to Clark's residence there. Yes, I actually favor the Clark analysis, and (for Rory), I'm the one who scribbled that it had to do with Clark's hair color on the list you circulated at East Lansing last Summer. I probably didn't I.D. myself on the paper when I gave it back. Wish I could help more. Bob From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Mar 29 19:52:50 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:52:50 -0800 Subject: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) Message-ID: There isn't any Algonquian negative /wi(i)/ that I'm aware of, at least not a prefix, which is what seems to be present here. There is a SUFFIX /-w-/ which characterizes the negative in Eastern Algonquian languages, and which co-occurs with the negative suffix /-si(i)/ in Ojibwe and Miami, but nothing at the front of words like this. Whatever the Michagamea is, it's probably homegrown Siouan. Dave > The "negative" we- looks much more like the Algonquian negative wi(i) > than anything Siouan, but I'm not in a position to say much more, I'm > afraid. > > Bob From rankin at ku.edu Mon Mar 29 20:06:10 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 14:06:10 -0600 Subject: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) Message-ID: I just heard Ives give his "history of Algonquian negation" paper and was drawing on memory. A lot of the forms had the /w/ all right, but it was often followed by /i/ or /ii/, which may have some other identity for all I know. I think the /si(i)/ is probably the /hisi(i)/ diminutive that seems to take part in negation, but I'll have to go check Ives' handout. Bob -----Original Message----- From: David Costa [mailto:pankihtamwa at earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 1:53 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) There isn't any Algonquian negative /wi(i)/ that I'm aware of, at least not a prefix, which is what seems to be present here. There is a SUFFIX /-w-/ which characterizes the negative in Eastern Algonquian languages, and which co-occurs with the negative suffix /-si(i)/ in Ojibwe and Miami, but nothing at the front of words like this. Whatever the Michagamea is, it's probably homegrown Siouan. Dave > The "negative" we- looks much more like the Algonquian negative wi(i) > than anything Siouan, but I'm not in a position to say much more, I'm > afraid. > > Bob From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Mar 29 20:14:10 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:14:10 -0800 Subject: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) Message-ID: Right, the /-si(i)w-/ negative often seen in Ojibwe & Miami is a fusion of a diminutive suffix (the part with the 's') with an old dubitative suffix (the part with the 'w'). My point was just that the leap from an old Algonquian suffix to a prefix in an apparently Siouan language seems unlikely. Dave > I just heard Ives give his "history of Algonquian negation" paper and > was drawing on memory. A lot of the forms had the /w/ all right, but > it was often followed by /i/ or /ii/, which may have some other identity > for all I know. I think the /si(i)/ is probably the /hisi(i)/ > diminutive that seems to take part in negation, but I'll have to go > check Ives' handout. > > Bob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: David Costa [mailto:pankihtamwa at earthlink.net] >> Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 1:53 PM >> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> Subject: Re: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) >> >> >> There isn't any Algonquian negative /wi(i)/ that I'm aware of, at least >> not a prefix, which is what seems to be present here. There is a SUFFIX >> /-w-/ which characterizes the negative in Eastern Algonquian languages, >> and which co-occurs with the negative suffix /-si(i)/ in Ojibwe and >> Miami, but nothing at the front of words like this. Whatever the >> Michagamea is, it's probably homegrown Siouan. >> >> Dave >> >> >> >>> The "negative" we- looks much more like the Algonquian negative wi(i) >>> than anything Siouan, but I'm not in a position to say much more, I'm >>> afraid. >>> >>> Bob >> From rankin at ku.edu Mon Mar 29 20:34:54 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 14:34:54 -0600 Subject: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) Message-ID: So maybe Michigamea is a "mirror image" language, like the kind of finite-state grammars Chomsky used to talk about in Syntactic Structures. Just Algonquian, but starting from the ends of the words and going forward! Then wi/we would be a prefix! With only about 4 words, it's definitely finite. And there you are! Bob > Right, the /-si(i)w-/ negative often seen in Ojibwe & Miami is a fusion of a diminutive suffix (the part with the 's') with an old dubitative suffix (the part with the 'w'). My point was just that the leap from an old Algonquian suffix to a prefix in an apparently Siouan language seems unlikely. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 29 20:57:13 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:57:13 -0700 Subject: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > Right, the /-si(i)w-/ negative often seen in Ojibwe & Miami is a fusion of a > diminutive suffix (the part with the 's') with an old dubitative suffix (the > part with the 'w'). My point was just that the leap from an old Algonquian > suffix to a prefix in an apparently Siouan language seems unlikely. It's interesting that negatives and dubitatives intertwine in Algonquian, since similar things seem to occur in Siouan. It certainly seems natural enough, but you like to see it happening elsewhere and even in the neighborhood, if possible. If I had to explain Mandan wa- (and maybe Michigamea *we-) I think I'd be inclined to see it as a somewhat heavily modified version of *wiN-... 'one', or, in effect, as an analog of the post verbal elements in more familiar European circumfixal negatives, e.g., French ne VERB pas, point, etc. 'not VERB a step, a bit' cf. wa-VERB-NEG < 'one' VERB-NEG 'to not ... one(ce)'. The form of PS 'one' is somewhat difficult because of the amount of similarly arbitrary ammendment in the daughter languages. Bob Rankin probably knows the material better. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 29 21:08:29 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 14:08:29 -0700 Subject: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D01233A3C@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I really can't take credit for any of John's very thorough analysis. I > may have noted the resemblance of one or two of the words, but he's the > one who has done all the work. Bob pulled out the plums, I gnawed the pits to death. > I don't know what to make of Michigamea, such as it is. It's too bad we > can't come up with just a few more words/phrases. That could be the > clincher. I've always wanted to wrap this one up better, but I've never been able to get hold of a French version of Jean-Benard Bossu's narrative. You never know what's been left out, added, corrected, or what not in translations. Without something like the original there's not much I can do. I did comb through the English version I had extracts of, looking for other material, but everything else was actually Miami-Illinois, right up through chief Papape Changouias (from memory). Maybe a few MI subtribal names that occur only a few times were obscure, but I think David Costa was able to make sense of most them, even such promisingly Siouan-looking forms as Moingoina (if moiNkwena). JEK From rankin at ku.edu Mon Mar 29 21:18:53 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:18:53 -0600 Subject: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) Message-ID: When Ives did his paper this weekend, Eric Hamp made the point that there are scarcely any languages that haven't shuffled their negative morphology rather completely over a 2K year period. Even Breton and Welsh, which are very close, have gone their separate ways on negation. So apparently these combinations of 'adversative', 'dubitative', 'negative', etc. are very common -- more so than I had realized. So Siouan /s^iN/, /ku/ and /riN/ aren't alone in finding themselves combined and re-combined periodically. Along with various intensifiers, diminutives, etc., all of which are common participants in negation. Bob > 's interesting that negatives and dubitatives intertwine in Algonquian, since similar things seem to occur in Siouan. It certainly seems natural enough, but you like to see it happening elsewhere and even in the neighborhood, if possible. > I had to explain Mandan wa- (and maybe Michigamea *we-) I think I'd be inclined to see it as a somewhat heavily modified version of *wiN-... 'one', or, in effect, as an analog of the post verbal elements in more familiar European circumfixal negatives, e.g., French ne VERB pas, point, etc. 'not VERB a step, a bit' cf. wa-VERB-NEG < 'one' VERB-NEG 'to not ... one(ce)'. The form of PS 'one' is somewhat difficult because of the amount of similarly arbitrary ammendment in the daughter languages. Bob Rankin probably knows the material better. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 29 22:51:32 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:51:32 -0500 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > > > > Well, the first part of that certainly looks promising. > Could pain have been pronounced /paiN/ then, or would it > be clearly /peN:/ ? If the former, it should be easy > for an Omaha speaker to reinterpret it as pahiN' or > pa'hi. > > The second part throws me though. I don't see how to > get from Fr. court, 'short', to OP z^i'de, 'red', either > by reinterpretation of the sound sequence or by calquing. > Is there any possibility that the 't' in court would have > been pronounced back then? > No, there's no way it was pronounced. However, here's something: pain 'bread' and pin 'pine' are homophonous. As far as I know, nobody knows why it was called "pain court," but perhaps he was "pins courts," (short pines), the plural French term being homophonous, too. Michael > Thanks for the comments! > > Rory > > > > > > Michael Mccafferty > u> cc: > Sent by: Subject: Re: St. Louis? > owner-siouan at lists.c > olorado.edu > > > 03/29/2004 11:56 AM > Please respond to > siouan > > > > > > > Pain Court means "short bread". > > There is a folk-etymology roaming around (perhaps in the article > referenced below) that says that the term means "short of bread". > But that's just what it is. > > The name means "short bread". I believe the name occurs elsewhere in > the Francophone word, maybe in Ontario. It is not a surname as far as I > know. > > Michael > > > > On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > > > All I know about the name for St. Louis in Algonquian is that the Shawnee > > name for it is peenhko (Gatschet's ), and the Mesquakie form is > > pe:ko:neki (a locative). These are apparently borrowings from French > 'Pain > > Court'. However, it's been so long since I thought about this, I can't > > remember at the moment why it was named after 'Pain Court', or what 'Pain > > Court' really meant. I think somewhere there's an article that explains > > this. Bob, does this ring a bell? > > > > Dave Costa > > > > > > > > I'm wondering about the name for St. Louis in native languages. For > OP, > > > Dorsey has Ppa'hi-z^i'de, "Red Neck", as a term for the inhabitants. > > > Fletcher and La Flesche give Ppahi'-z^ide ttoNwoN, "Red Hair town", > with > > > the note "Referring to the color of Governor Clark's hair". I've had > it in > > > mind that the latter explanation was confirmed by the Osage form, but I > > > can't seem to find a reference. Can anyone point me to further > information > > > on this? I'd be especially interested knowing the name for it in > Osage, > > > Kaw, Iowa-Oto, or even Algonquian languages. > > > > > > > > > > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 29 22:53:03 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:53:03 -0500 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164DFD@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Most French came from the north or the east and the combination thereof. The major port was La Rochelle. I've never heard of a Provencal speaker among the lot, although anything's possible. Michael On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > Is there any possibility that the 't' in court would have > been pronounced back then? > > No, I don't think so, although, in Provencal dialects or others, > anything is possible. Catalans in Rousillon might pronounce it even > today. It is maintained in the feminine, of course. Someone may have > cataloged the parts of France represented in the various expeditions, > but I'd expect there were quite a few voyageurs whose origins are > unknown. > > Bob > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 29 22:54:14 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:54:14 -0500 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D01233A38@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Actually, I was in a discussion (somehow) about this place name (not on the Siouan list) a few months back. Ives Goddard was also (somehow) in on that. He said the term was valid, "pain court," was valid for French. Michael On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > I can't remember at the moment why it was named after 'Pain Court', or > what 'Pain Court' really meant. I think somewhere there's an article > that explains this. Bob, does this ring a bell? > > 'Fraid not, unless it's a reference to SHORT-BREAD. But I would expect > that expression to have originated in English. (Do the French call > baking fats by the name "shortening"?). One of the OED guys on the list > could attack that angle. > > Bob > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 29 22:55:49 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:55:49 -0500 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > > > > > Could pain have been pronounced /paiN/ then, or would it > > be clearly /peN:/ ? If the former, it should be easy > > for an Omaha speaker to reinterpret it as pahiN' or > > pa'hi. > > > > The second part throws me though. I don't see how to > > get from Fr. court, 'short', to OP z^i'de, 'red', either > > by reinterpretation of the sound sequence or by calquing. > > Is there any possibility that the 't' in court would have > > been pronounced back then? > > Well here's an outside possibility! There is an entry in > Francis La Flesche's Osage dictionary: > > zhiN'da, it was not. > > I've never run across this in OP, and there doesn't seem > to be any elaboration on it in the Osage dictionary either. > > So my highly dubious speculation is: > > Fr. pain court "short (of?) bread" > No. Definitely not. "Pain court" has no semantic relationship with "short of bread". > => Os. paiN zhiNda "the bread was not" > > => OP pa'hi zhi'de "red neck" > pahiN' zhide "red hair" > > the latter interpretation coming into vogue with Governor Clark. > > This speculation depends on favorable answers to three questions: > > 1. Is the folk interpretation, pain court = "short of bread", > really possible in French? > No, again, again. Michael > 2. What was the actual meaning and use of Os. zhiNda ? > > 3. Did the Osage borrow Fr. pain as /paiN/ to mean bread? > In OP, all things bread, dough and wheat are covered by > wamuske. In the Osage dictionary, I see this word used > only once, in reference to a wheat field. I don't see > any reference to "bread" in the dictionary, which might > suggest that it was a loan word ignored by La Flesche. > > Rory > > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 29 22:57:50 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:57:50 -0500 Subject: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D01233A3C@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I think I remember that the Illinois-French dictionary commonly attributed to Jacques Gravier has a few *Illinois* language dialect terms associated by the compiler(s) of that dictionary with the Metchigamea, as, at some point, they or some of them, became Illinois speakers. That doesn't help, of course, the putative Siouan origin for their ancestral tongue. Michael On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I really can't take credit for any of John's very thorough analysis. I > may have noted the resemblance of one or two of the words, but he's the > one who has done all the work. I don't know what to make of Michigamea, > such as it is. It's too bad we can't come up with just a few more > words/phrases. That could be the clincher. > > The "negative" we- looks much more like the Algonquian negative wi(i) > than anything Siouan, but I'm not in a position to say much more, I'm > afraid. > > Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: Koontz John E [mailto:John.Koontz at colorado.edu] > Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 1:33 AM > To: Siouan List > Subject: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) > > > On Tue, 23 Mar 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > Speculation upon speculation, the gateway to all delusion! > > > My sense is that the Michigamea, although as John has pointed out the > > evidence is muy thin, were Dhegiha speakers and, as the Old Illinois > > name for the Ohio River /akaansasiipi/ indicates, the Dhegiha were > > associated with the Ohio River at least by the second half of the 17th > > > century, ... > > Granted that there are only four words, it looks about halfway between > Dhegiha and Ioway-Otoe. > > I might as well provide the forms: > > indage' ouai panis > 'je suis indigne de vivre, > je ne me'rite plus de porter le doux nom de pe're' > (expressing guilt as to treatment of a son) > 'I am unworthy to live, > I no longer am worthy of the sweet name of father' > > tikalabe', houe' ni que' > 'nous te croyons, tu as raison' > 'we believe you, you are right' > > My suggestions for rendering these are derived from some insights of Bob > Rankin (at least 'father' and 'think', as I recall, and maybe 'lack' as > well), and come down to this: > > in- dage' ouai- pani- s > i(N)- da'j^e we'- b-niN= s > his father negative- I-am= negative > > 'I am not his father.' > > > ti- kala- be' houe'- nigue' > h-ti'-klaN= be we'- niNge= (s) > you- think=plural negative- it-lacks= negative > > 'Your thinking is not lacking.' > > > You could compare these with made up pseudo-Omaha-Ponca sentences: > > *i- dhadi b-dhiN=az^i > his father I am negative > > *s^- nigdhaN=bi dhiNga= z^i > you think plural it lacks negative > > There is no OP verb *dhigdhaN 'to think' that I know of, but OP has > i'dhigdhaN 'to decide, to plan', and its nominalization we'dhigdhaN > 'decision, plan, mind'. This has a dative i'gidhigdhaN 'to rule', and a > compound miN'=dhigdhaN 'to think of women'. The form dhigdhaN' 'to > marry' is probably unrelated. > > Note that OP requires the auxiliary maN 'I do' between the verb and the > negative in the first person. I do not believe that either idhadi dhiN > 'to be one's father' or dhigdhaN dhiNge 'to lack thinking' (or its > negative) are idiomatic in any sense in OP, either. These examples > simply show what hypothetically cognate OP forms would look like. > > In essence it is suggested that Michigamea (or Bossu's pidgin > Michigamea) has the following elements: > > i(N)daj^e < *i(N)-tate 'his father'. Here iNdaj^e is more plausible as > 'my father', or as an error for *idaj^e or *iraj^e or whatever the third > person should have been. Or perhaps we should envision something like > 'My father' [he-says] I-am-not [treated like that]. Compare OP iNdadi < > *iN-tati 'my father', dhiadi < *ri-ati 'your father', idhadi < *i-(r)ati > 'his father' (typical of Dhegiha), or IO hiNda(N)j^e < *iN-ta(N)te 'my > father', naN'j^e < *r(i)-a(N)te 'your father', aNj^e < *(i-)a(N)te 'his > father'. Note that IO hiNda(N)j^e 'my father' is archaic. Current is > suppletive hiNka. > > *riN (*niN?) 'to be', attested in a first person bniN (bliN?) 'I am'. > Compare OP dhiN 'be (of some kind)', bdhiN 'I am', (s^)niN 'you are', > *dhiN 'he is', or IO n[y]iN 'be possessed of a quality'. I'm not sure > what the inflection of this IO verb is. > > *riklaN (< *rukraN) 'to think, to engage in mental activity', attested > in a second person plural (h)tikla(N)=be (or =bi) 'you-all think; your > thinking'. Compare OP i'dhigdhaN < *i-ru-kraN 'to decide', inflected > i'bdhigdhaN 'I decide', i'(s^)nigdhaN 'you decide', but notice Quapaw > inflects di- < *ru- as p-di- 'I ...', t-ti- 'you ...'. Reduction of > *s^- 'you (syncopated)' to preaspiration is a common tendency across > Dhegiha, whether it leads to s^-ni- > h-ni- > ni- as in OP, or to *h-di- > > t-ti- as in Quapaw. IO has rugra(N)' < *ru-kraN 'to consider, judge, > think on, think that', inflected (ha)du'graN 'I think', (ra)sdu'graN > 'you think'. > > ni(N)ge < *riNke' 'to lack'. Compare OP dhiNge' 'to lack', IO niNge, > niNnye 'there is no'. > > In addition there is a negative that seems to be prefixal we- in one > case, and circumfixal we-...-s in another. Perhaps the final -s is > simply missing in error in the first case. Siouan negatives exhibit > suffixed elements *=s^(i) and *=riN, sometimes separate, sometimes > together, in one order or another, cf. Da =s^-niN but Mandan =riN-x ~ > =xi (where x is an augmentive grade of the the fricative set s/s^/x). > Dakotan has =s^(i) as an adversative enclitic 'also, indeed'. Dhegiha > has *=z^i only as negative, with intrusive maN 'I do' in the first > person. > > IO has =s^kun(y)iN. However, Winnebago has =niN 'negative' (and =z^i > 'at least'), and =s^kuNniN as a dubitative. While the IO/Wi *=s^kuN-riN > sequence probably includes the negative element *=riN, it may be that > the older reading of *=s^kuN-riN was dubitative, and that the IO > negative is an old dubitative. That is, perhaps Winnebago is more > conservative than IO in this aspect of its morphology. > > Siouan negatives also sometimes exhibit a prefixal element combined with > the suffix to make a negative circumfix. These prefixal elements are > not cognate, but Mandan in particular exhibits wa-, with which compare > the we- found in Michigamea. > > My inclination without "Michigamea" is to see the *=s^i or *=Si element > in Siouan negatives as a sort of emphatic, not unlike French pas, etc., > or English not (originally). This leaves *=riN, sometimes missing, as > in Dhegiha as the negative element. If it is simply a form of *riN > 'be', then perhaps the original negative is missing entirely, as in > modern collquial French ... pas, etc., missing original ne, or, for that > matter, modern English ... not, missing original prefixed ne, too. > > What Michigamea might contribute is a suspicion that the prefixal we- > (Michigamea?), wa- (Mandan) represent the original negative. Not that > we really need another wa- prefix, or even another we- prefix. > > I don't think any of this is inherently unreasonable, but even without > getting into the somewhat odd contexts Bossu provides in his annecdotes, > and other issues of that nature, these are plainly a bit difficult to be > sure of. It looks Siouan to me, and it doesn't look Algonquian to the > Algonquianists, but maybe it's really just mush. > > If it is Siouan, I hope I've shown that while Dhegiha generally, and on > some points, Quapaw specifically, are useful in interpeting it, so is > Ioway-Otoe, and the negative is really not at all like a Dhegiha > negative. It's at least as much like a Mandan negative as a Dhegiha one, > and otherwise it's at best reminiscent of the general character of a > Siouan negative, especially if we concentrate on the suffixal -s, > comparing it to > *s^(i) and more or less ignore the prefixal we-. > > JEK > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 29 22:59:02 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:59:02 -0500 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > > I can't remember at the moment why it was named after 'Pain Court', or > > what 'Pain Court' really meant. I think somewhere there's an article > > that explains this. Bob, does this ring a bell? > > > > 'Fraid not, unless it's a reference to SHORT-BREAD. But I would expect > > that expression to have originated in English. (Do the French call > > baking fats by the name "shortening"?). One of the OED guys on the list > > could attack that angle. > > I had an oral version of the paper on one or more occasions while helping > with the computer end of the Gros Ventre dictionary. I think Allan's > understanding is that pain court is more or less analogous to English > "short commons" or maybe in this case "starvation town." In other words, > bread was not so much short (without yeast?) as in shortage. But, encore une fois, this doesn't fit French and it smells like a folk-etymology, albeit a tasty one. Michael > > It's interesting to consider that ppahiN (I think the nasalization is > right here) z^ide might be related to pain cort, but it doesn't look like > it holds up, and I've always assumed that Fletcher & LaFlesche were > correct in asserting that it was a reference to Clark's residence there. > > PpahiN z^ide strikes me as a cross-linguistic pun raised to the level of a > folk etymology and quite in line with Omaha humor. It reminds me of xidha > z^e or xidha giaN for 'Friday', though there's only a translation there, > no pun. (I guess that would be xuya c^he in Dakota.) I think hte > practice of introducing slight permutations in words to produce new > meanings for humorous effect are more or less universal. I remember it > being obligatory in the dorms years ago to refer to certain brands of soda > as Mountain Spew and Dr. Pecker, and though neither of these is quite as > good a play on words as ppahi z^ide we were all impressed with our > wittiness. (Similar things were done with other brands, but this sort of > thing can easily get out of hand.) > > > From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Mar 29 23:15:26 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:15:26 -0600 Subject: St. Louis? Message-ID: John wrote: > It's interesting to consider that ppahiN (I think the nasalization is > right here) z^ide might be related to pain cort, but it doesn't look like > it holds up, and I've always assumed that Fletcher & LaFlesche were > correct in asserting that it was a reference to Clark's residence there. The nasalization ought to be right if we're understanding ppahiN' as ppa 'head' + hiN 'hair', as is only sane. Fletcher and La Flesche (p. 107) actually don't show it as nasalized: pahi', even though they do show the nasalization for hiN', 'hair', and pehiN', 'hair on forehead'. It seems like a lot of nasalization is lost in 20th century Omaha, especially for [iN]. As far as I can make out, our speakers seem to prefer the pronunciation to be ppahi'. If there's a nasalization there, it's awfully slight. Dorsey also gives the St. Louis name in his dictionary, and he says explicitly that it is ppa'hi z^i'de, "Those who have their necks red". If we are assuming that punning humor played a role here as John suggests, then there could actually have been several valid forms of the word. The ppahiN' z^ide, "red hair", form might have been coined in the early 1800's during the tenure of Governor Clark, while the ppa'hi z^i'de, "red neck" form might have been an older form dating to the late 18th century in reference to the blatantly sunburned necks of the first white men they had much contact with, who would have arrived from St. Louis every summer around August having poled their craft up the Missouri with their backs mostly to the sun all the way from the Kansas City region. This form itself might have been a pun on a prior, possibly non-Omaha form which incorporated the first element of the French Pain Court. We may never know for sure, but I think it's premature to say that the relationship doesn't hold up. I'd still like to know what IO and other Dhegihans called St. Louis. Rory From rankin at ku.edu Tue Mar 30 00:02:14 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:02:14 -0600 Subject: St. Louis? Message-ID: For myself, I've never heard /ppahi'/ used to mean 'neck'. Ttahu, yes, ppahi, no. Maybe it's just an OP usage. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rory M Larson" To: Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 5:15 PM Subject: RE: St. Louis? > > > > > John wrote: > > It's interesting to consider that ppahiN (I think the nasalization is > > right here) z^ide might be related to pain cort, but it doesn't look like > > it holds up, and I've always assumed that Fletcher & LaFlesche were > > correct in asserting that it was a reference to Clark's residence there. > > The nasalization ought to be right if we're understanding ppahiN' > as ppa 'head' + hiN 'hair', as is only sane. Fletcher and La Flesche > (p. 107) actually don't show it as nasalized: pahi', even though they > do show the nasalization for hiN', 'hair', and pehiN', 'hair on forehead'. > It seems like a lot of nasalization is lost in 20th century Omaha, > especially for [iN]. As far as I can make out, our speakers seem to > prefer the pronunciation to be ppahi'. If there's a nasalization there, > it's awfully slight. > > Dorsey also gives the St. Louis name in his dictionary, and he says > explicitly that it is ppa'hi z^i'de, "Those who have their necks red". > > If we are assuming that punning humor played a role here as John suggests, > then there could actually have been several valid forms of the word. The > ppahiN' z^ide, "red hair", form might have been coined in the early 1800's > during the tenure of Governor Clark, while the ppa'hi z^i'de, "red neck" > form might have been an older form dating to the late 18th century in > reference to the blatantly sunburned necks of the first white men they > had much contact with, who would have arrived from St. Louis every summer > around August having poled their craft up the Missouri with their backs > mostly to the sun all the way from the Kansas City region. This form > itself might have been a pun on a prior, possibly non-Omaha form which > incorporated the first element of the French Pain Court. We may never > know for sure, but I think it's premature to say that the relationship > doesn't hold up. I'd still like to know what IO and other Dhegihans > called St. Louis. > > Rory > > From rankin at ku.edu Tue Mar 30 00:04:42 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:04:42 -0600 Subject: St. Louis? Message-ID: > Actually, I was in a discussion (somehow) about this place name (not on > the Siouan list) a few months back. Ives Goddard was also (somehow) in on > that. He said the term was valid, "pain court," was valid for French. With what meaning? B. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Mar 30 00:32:41 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 19:32:41 -0500 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: <002601c415ea$acd00120$02b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: short bread. On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > > Actually, I was in a discussion (somehow) about this place name (not on > > the Siouan list) a few months back. Ives Goddard was also (somehow) in on > > that. He said the term was valid, "pain court," was valid for French. > > With what meaning? > > B. > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Mar 30 00:51:00 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 19:51:00 -0500 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob, I'm just sent out a message to one of the people who had that "Pain Court" discussion a few months back and asked him for a copy of it if he saved it. I'll send it on if it arrives here. Michael Quoting Michael Mccafferty : > short bread. > > > > On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > > > > Actually, I was in a discussion (somehow) about this place name (not on > > > the Siouan list) a few months back. Ives Goddard was also (somehow) in > on > > > that. He said the term was valid, "pain court," was valid for French. > > > > With what meaning? > > > > B. > > > > > > > > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 30 01:07:43 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:07:43 -0700 Subject: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > I think I remember that the Illinois-French dictionary commonly attributed > to Jacques Gravier has a few *Illinois* language dialect terms associated > by the compiler(s) of that dictionary with the Metchigamea, as, at some > point, they or some of them, became Illinois speakers. That doesn't help, > of course, the putative Siouan origin for their ancestral tongue. In other words, as I think I established some time back with David Costa, all these terms are clearly MI or at least Algonquian? I also remember looking at a handwritten list of personal names without being able to make heads, tails, or Siouan of it. JEK From ahartley at d.umn.edu Tue Mar 30 02:04:44 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:04:44 -0600 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Pain Court is also a town in Ontario: see http://www.paincourt.ca/history.htm Pain in Quebec French is [peN] (Dict. Hist. du Français Québécois, 1998, s.v) The DHFQ has a lengthy entry on pain, naming several types, but not pain court. Nothing in Dictionnaire canadien-français (1894). A quick web-troll suggests that pain court is, in metropol. Fr. at least, a 'short (not long) loaf of bread'. Perhaps at St. Louis there was some sort of topographic reference, as often with sugar loaf, for example. Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 30 02:24:45 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 19:24:45 -0700 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > > The name means "short bread". I believe the name occurs elsewhere in > > the Francophone word, maybe in Ontario. It is not a surname as far as I > > know. > > Could it be a "dit name"? I'm afraid that the following does not clarify anything. In fact, it complicates it by seeming to support any and all of the suggestions so far, not to mention some others. One wonders if there might not be a confluence of ideas involved. Perhaps as the hardy voyageur poles his boat up the Missouri, his eyes focussed sharply on the shore, yet somehow distant, abstracted, he is thinking not of furs, but of elaborate three-level puns that will really knock their socks off the next time he casually drops one into conversation at Sarpy's store. ==== First, for what it's worth there was once a French mathematician surnamed Painleve (http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Painleve.html), pain leve (raised bread) being the opposite of pain court in the sense of short bread. Looking along those lines on the Web: There are places named Paincourt or Paincourtville in Ontario and Louisiana (and formerly in the Missouri). See http://www.onterm.gov.on.ca/geo/details_e.asp?letter=p&ind=51 for a list of Ontario placenames. The Canadian locality was an early French settlement (http://www.inforoute.on.ca/fron/colo.html, http://www.francoplanete.net/tricentenaire/Histoire/DeveloppementFrancais.htm). There's a rue de Paincourt in Chateauroux, France, and a rue or r[ou]te de Paincourt in Clairefontaine en Yvelines. References to St. Louis as Paincourt, invariably glossed "short of bread": http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=lhbum7689g&hc=10&ifr=1&gss=angs&ct=2851&clx=PrvRec. http://www.common-place.org/vol-03/no-04/st-louis/http://www.common-place.org/vol-03/no-04/st-louis/ http://www.uwgb.edu/wisfrench/library/history/language.htm The last says: > It is impossible to utilize French colonial documents as historical > sources without understanding the penchant of the French of the time to > use nicknames even in formal legal papers. Colonial Ste-Geneviève, now > our St. Genevieve, Missouri, was also known as Misère or "poverty," and > St. Louis itself was known to many as Paincourt, said to mean "short on > bread." The principle of homophony or sound resemblance can be used to > derive the French nickname Louis Constant for Prairie du Chien, for many > years a place of rendezvous for traders on the Mississippi just above > the mouth of the Wisconsin River. L'ouisconsin (The Wisconsin) became > Louisconstant or Louis Constant (steadfast Louis). This was put together by "Robert Hall ... Professor Emeritus of Anthropology at the University of Illinois at Chicago and Adjunct Curator of Midwestern and Plains Archaeology at the Field Museum, Chicago." a name some of us will know. Substantially similar things occur in the other discussions. I don't know the origin of the analysis. I did finally locate a reference to Paincourt as a dit name for Deroches. Desroches - Boucher, Laroux, Tinon, Lafontaine, Paincourt http://www.geocities.com/emersos/canadian_names.html > What are dit names ? > > A "dit name" is an alias given to a family name. Compared to other alias > or a.k.a. that are given to one specific pers on, the dit names will be > given to many persons. It seems the usage exists almost only in France, > New France and in Scotland where we find clans or septs. Many of the > soldiers of the Carignan Regiment who came here in 1665-1668, lived > around Dauphine. While they were not the only ones nor the first to use > dit names in New France, it seems those soldiers are responsible, for a > great extent, the dit names reached in Quebec compared to France, Acadia > or Louisiana. For Paul Deroches, dit Paincourt, see http://marchif.crosswinds.net/texte/57/57804.html. As far as the homophony of the name, "I have other info. which indicates that Charles was born in Ontario ("Pan Couer" which I now believe to be Paincourt, Ontario)." Coeur is 'heart'. And, for what it's worth, it seems that paincourt (and several other pain-based words like painboeuf, paincuit, etc.) have some significance to French and/or German gay males which I have elected not to further investigate at this time. That list does suggest to me, however, that paincourt might also be rendered shortcake(s). From ahartley at d.umn.edu Tue Mar 30 03:34:43 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:34:43 -0600 Subject: [Fwd: Re: St. Louis?] Message-ID: Apologies if this was posted already, but I haven't seen it show up. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: St. Louis? Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:04:44 -0600 From: Alan Hartley To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Pain Court is also a town in Ontario: see http://www.paincourt.ca/history.htm Pain in Quebec French is [peN] (Dict. Hist. du Français Québécois, 1998, s.v) The DHFQ has a lengthy entry on pain, naming several types, but not pain court. Nothing in Dictionnaire canadien-français (1894). A quick web-troll suggests that pain court is, in metropol. Fr. at least, a 'short (not long) loaf of bread'. Perhaps at St. Louis there was some sort of topographic reference, as often with sugar loaf, for example. Alan From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Mar 30 10:59:30 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:59:30 -0500 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: <4068D5BC.6050509@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > Pain Court is also a town in Ontario: see > http://www.paincourt.ca/history.htm > > Pain in Quebec French is [peN] (Dict. Hist. du Fran�ais Qu�b�cois, 1998, Not sure what [peN] signifies. In Quebec French "pain" can have two different pronunciations: [pe~] and [pI~]. Michael > s.v) The DHFQ has a lengthy entry on pain, naming several types, but not > pain court. Nothing in Dictionnaire canadien-fran�ais (1894). A quick > web-troll suggests that pain court is, in metropol. Fr. at least, a > 'short (not long) loaf of bread'. Perhaps at St. Louis there was some > sort of topographic reference, as often with sugar loaf, for example. > > Alan > > > From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Tue Mar 30 11:05:26 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:05:26 +0100 Subject: St. Louis? Message-ID: Apparently, according to Allan, because bread was in short supply there. But his explanation of the name struck me as ill-formed in French when I first read the article soe years back (in your sitting room!) and it still strikes me as junk. Maybe if they made bread in in short loaves rather than in baguettes, that would be feasible. 'Shortening' and thereby 'shortbread' has nothing to do qwith shortness; shortening means mixing fat into dough. | 'Shortnin' Bread' may lie behind the 1959 #1 hit 'The Happy Organ' by Dave 'Baby' Cortez (which never got anywhere in the UK). Anthony >>> pankihtamwa at earthlink.net 29/03/2004 19:11:51 >>> Yes, but WHY was St. Louis called 'short bread'? That was what I was wondering. David > Pain Court means "short bread". > > There is a folk-etymology roaming around (perhaps in the article > referenced below) that says that the term means "short of bread". > But that's just what it is. > > The name means "short bread". I believe the name occurs elsewhere in > the Francophone word, maybe in Ontario. It is not a surname as far as I > know. > > Michael > > > > On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > >> All I know about the name for St. Louis in Algonquian is that the Shawnee >> name for it is peenhko (Gatschet's ), and the Mesquakie form is >> pe:ko:neki (a locative). These are apparently borrowings from French 'Pain >> Court'. However, it's been so long since I thought about this, I can't >> remember at the moment why it was named after 'Pain Court', or what 'Pain >> Court' really meant. I think somewhere there's an article that explains >> this. Bob, does this ring a bell? >> >> Dave Costa >> >> > >> > I'm wondering about the name for St. Louis in native languages. For OP, >> > Dorsey has Ppa'hi-z^i'de, "Red Neck", as a term for the inhabitants. >> > Fletcher and La Flesche give Ppahi'-z^ide ttoNwoN, "Red Hair town", with >> > the note "Referring to the color of Governor Clark's hair". I've had it in >> > mind that the latter explanation was confirmed by the Osage form, but I >> > can't seem to find a reference. Can anyone point me to further information >> > on this? I'd be especially interested knowing the name for it in Osage, >> > Kaw, Iowa-Oto, or even Algonquian languages. >> > > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Mar 30 11:24:12 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 06:24:12 -0500 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I checked with two native speakers of French, one from Quebec and one from France, a few months ago concerning the possibility that "Pain Court" could mean "short of bread". The Quebec speaker is an expert in historic New World French terminology and the other is a well-informed professor of French language. Both said that, although one could say "a` court de pain" (short of bread), as in "Je suis a` court de pain" (I'm short of bread), it is impossible for "Pain Court" to mean that. Again, this "short of bread" thing is a folk-etymology. (Bob Hall, cited earlier for his work on this place name and for its meaning "short of bread," is a good archaeologist, but I don't trust his work, necessarily, outside of his field. I have a paper coming out in the fall on Bob's work concerning Jean Nicollet and the Hochunk. It doesn't sing any praises.) Michael On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, Anthony Grant wrote: > Apparently, according to Allan, because bread was in short supply there. But his explanation of the name struck me as ill-formed in French when I first read the article soe years back (in your sitting room!) and it still strikes me as junk. Maybe if they made bread in in short loaves rather than in baguettes, that would be feasible. > > 'Shortening' and thereby 'shortbread' has nothing to do qwith shortness; shortening means mixing fat into dough. | 'Shortnin' Bread' may lie behind the 1959 #1 hit 'The Happy Organ' by Dave 'Baby' Cortez (which never got anywhere in the UK). > > Anthony > > >>> pankihtamwa at earthlink.net 29/03/2004 19:11:51 >>> > Yes, but WHY was St. Louis called 'short bread'? That was what I was > wondering. > > David > > > > Pain Court means "short bread". > > > > There is a folk-etymology roaming around (perhaps in the article > > referenced below) that says that the term means "short of bread". > > But that's just what it is. > > > > The name means "short bread". I believe the name occurs elsewhere in > > the Francophone word, maybe in Ontario. It is not a surname as far as I > > know. > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > > > >> All I know about the name for St. Louis in Algonquian is that the Shawnee > >> name for it is peenhko (Gatschet's ), and the Mesquakie form is > >> pe:ko:neki (a locative). These are apparently borrowings from French 'Pain > >> Court'. However, it's been so long since I thought about this, I can't > >> remember at the moment why it was named after 'Pain Court', or what 'Pain > >> Court' really meant. I think somewhere there's an article that explains > >> this. Bob, does this ring a bell? > >> > >> Dave Costa > >> > >> > > >> > I'm wondering about the name for St. Louis in native languages. For OP, > >> > Dorsey has Ppa'hi-z^i'de, "Red Neck", as a term for the inhabitants. > >> > Fletcher and La Flesche give Ppahi'-z^ide ttoNwoN, "Red Hair town", with > >> > the note "Referring to the color of Governor Clark's hair". I've had it in > >> > mind that the latter explanation was confirmed by the Osage form, but I > >> > can't seem to find a reference. Can anyone point me to further information > >> > on this? I'd be especially interested knowing the name for it in Osage, > >> > Kaw, Iowa-Oto, or even Algonquian languages. > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > From ahartley at d.umn.edu Tue Mar 30 14:03:48 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:03:48 -0600 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Not sure what [peN] signifies. [peN] = [pe~] = [pe~] From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Mar 30 18:37:32 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:37:32 +0200 Subject: St. Louis - Pain Court Message-ID: The site pointed to earlier by Alan (http://www.paincourt.ca/history.htm) gives the following description in its French version: > Paroisse de l’Immaculée Conception de Pain Court C’est la misère extrême des ancêtres qui a donné le jour au nom de Pain Court. Les missionnaires disaient : « Je m’en vais dans la mission du pain court », ou tout simplement : « Je m’en vais à Pain Court. » Et le nom prit racine pour toujours... << It seems that the French speaking author doesn't have problems to quote the term _pain court_ in the sense of smth like "short of bread" (although it doesn't look like a real grammatical French rendering, then). Maybe, 'short' bread (=small loafs of bread) actually was an expression used to symbolize 'misère' (shortage of bread -> threat of 'famine')? "... panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie..." Alfred From rankin at ku.edu Tue Mar 30 18:50:43 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:50:43 -0600 Subject: Rosetta Stone dot com Message-ID: Does any of you know anything about the company that uses the name RosettaStone.com? There is some interest among some members of the tribal government in Kaw City, OK in contracting with this commercial language teaching outfit for putting together Kaw Language internet-accessible courses. I know nothing about them, but I have trouble seeing just what they would do for the rather large fees they ask. If any of you has had experience with this company or knows anyone who has, I'd like to hear about it. Thanks, Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 30 21:56:55 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:56:55 -0700 Subject: St. Louis - Pain Court In-Reply-To: <4069BE6C.4060208@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, [windows-1252] "Alfred W. Tüting" wrote: > > Paroisse de l?Immaculée Conception de Pain Court > > C?est la misère extrême des ancêtres qui a donné le jour au nom de Pain > Court. Les missionnaires disaient : « Je m?en vais dans la mission du > pain court », ou tout simplement : « Je m?en vais à Pain Court. » Et le > nom prit racine pour toujours... << > > It seems that the French speaking author doesn't have problems to quote > the term _pain court_ in the sense of smth like "short of bread" > (although it doesn't look like a real grammatical French rendering, > then). Comments on St. Louis as "Pain court" generally pair this with a comment on Ste. Genevieve as "Misere," suggesting a parallel. It would be interesting to know what the first source is that suggests this. I agree that taking something like "a short loaf" as symbolic of want or perhaps just meagerness seems more consistent with French syntax than other possibilities. In any event, any explanation of the name as applied to St. Louis has to account for its use in three North American placenames dating to French settlements in the area, and probably also to its use in two street names in France. It seems clear that some metaphorical meaning might be involved. It is also possible that the name might reflect the French nickname or dit name of an early resident, though it seems more likely that Paincort as a nickname reflects the same metaphor as the placenames than that the placenames derive from the nickname. This seems likely because of the number of instances of Paincourt as a placename and the tendency to explain it in ways that imply shortages of food rather than as a nickname. Finally, if the sense is taken simply as short bread without too much emphasis on what that might mean, it could represent a none-too-relevant play on an unrelated phrase in another language with a similar sound. This seems less likely because the name does reappear as a placename, and because Native American versions of St. Louis seem to be derived from the French and not vice versa. If we include Allan Taylor's Gros Ventre case, the Native American versions include not just borrowings of the sound sequence by calques of the sense. On the other hand, the Omaha(-Ponca) name might well involve a play on pain [peN]. Something like [peN] might well suggest an underlying ppahi(N) to an Omaha-Ponca speaker, since h tends to be lost in the context V'hV and since ai contracts to e. This is basically Rory's suggestion, of course. This might then lead to various wordplays that would accomodate that sequence, even if they had meanings that were unrelated to the original, but relevant somehow to the context in a humorous way. If Omaha-Ponca speakers were in the habit of referring to St. Louis as Ppe ~ Ppa(h)i(N), rendering Pain(court), they might easily interpret this as 'Headhair, Scalp' or 'Neck' at the first stage, and then adapt this first to ppahi(N) z^ide 'red hair' explained as a reference to Clark and later reexplain even that as 'red neck', even if the word for 'hair' or 'neck' weren't quite right. The 'redneck' explanation probably dates to the 1900s, or subsequent to whenever the term redneck became common. Some of the same forms might apply in other Siouan languages in the area, and so Rory is quite right to ask after these. It occurs to me that personal names such as "Batchi" [bac^hi?] for Sarpy and "Jo" for Joseph LaFlesche has some similar potential. The potential here is along the lines of the ethnonym Jew in Winnebago or the word for 'turkey' in various Muskogean languages, both of which are explicitly attested elsewhere. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 30 21:59:20 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:59:20 -0700 Subject: St. Louis - Pain Court In-Reply-To: Message-ID: pgp is no longer available on this machine; please use gnu gpg From lcumberl at indiana.edu Tue Mar 30 21:58:25 2004 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:58:25 -0500 Subject: Rosetta Stone dot com In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164E03@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Bob, A few years back when I was at the AAA conference in Toronto doing a poster session on our Institute's software, there was a Rosetta Stone exhibit at the same time and I had a chance to go through their demonstration. My impression was that, as far as indigenous langauges go, - and I emphasize that this is not current information -- they were largely style over substance. Their program was a template that they used for any and all languages, very colorful, lots of nice photos, and two voice print bars across the top of the screen that showed the native speaker's wave form and then yours, so you could compare your effort to the native speaker's. Watching other people play around with the program, I observed that virtually no one knew what to do with the wave forms (surprise, surprise!). The capacity for vocabulary is very limited, and as far as I could see, there was no grammar at all. Later, at a Stabilizing Indigenous Languages conference, I spoke with some members of a Seminole band from Florida who had used them and were unhappy with the results. And, as you observe, the expense. Rosetta Stone was not a turnkey operation, it turns out. In addition to providing the speakers, the tribe had to provide a suitable recording environment, some of the recording equipment, and a few other things that I can't recall now, all at their own (additional) expense. I should point out that my reservations about Rosetta Stone have nothing to do with the fact that we do software development here -- ours are not commercial products and we are not in competition with Rosetta Stone. It just seemed to me that the product didn't have much depth and cost an awful lot of money for what it was. Linda Quoting "Rankin, Robert L" : > Does any of you know anything about the company that uses the name > RosettaStone.com? There is some interest among some members of the > tribal government in Kaw City, OK in contracting with this commercial > language teaching outfit for putting together Kaw Language > internet-accessible courses. I know nothing about them, but I have > trouble seeing just what they would do for the rather large fees they > ask. If any of you has had experience with this company or knows anyone > who has, I'd like to hear about it. > > Thanks, > > Bob > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 30 23:15:52 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:15:52 -0700 Subject: PGP/GPG Message In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not sure what this was about, but please disregard it. On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > pgp is no longer available on this machine; please use gnu gpg From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Mar 30 23:50:07 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:50:07 -0600 Subject: St. Louis - Pain Court Message-ID: I agree with John's excellent summary of the question. Just one small quibble: > If Omaha-Ponca speakers were in the habit of referring to > St. Louis as Ppe ~ Ppa(h)i(N), rendering Pain(court), they might easily > interpret this as 'Headhair, Scalp' or 'Neck' at the first stage, and then > adapt this first to ppahi(N) z^ide 'red hair' explained as a reference to > Clark and later reexplain even that as 'red neck', even if the word for > 'hair' or 'neck' weren't quite right. The 'redneck' explanation probably > dates to the 1900s, or subsequent to whenever the term redneck became > common. [...] The 'red neck' interpretation comes from Dorsey, who I believe died in 1894. Therefore, this Omaha word pre-dates the 1900s. If American English 'redneck' wasn't coined until the 1900s, then the Omaha didn't get it from us. Although I have speculated that the American English term might have derived from an earlier international Indian calque "red neck" for the men of St. Louis, translated into English during a period when the Indians were still fluent in their native tongues but forced to use English in an English-speaking world, the Omaha and English 'redneck' ethnonyms are more likely coincidental. Sunburned white people often display flaming red necks against creamy white skin where their shirts have been in a striking contrast unmatched by other races. This designation for whites may have occurred to more darkly pigmented people more than once. I would guess that the "red neck" term probably preceded the "red hair" term in Omaha. They would have wanted a term for St. Louis and its traders long before Governor Clark. Rory Koontz John E cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: St. Louis - Pain Court owner-siouan at lists.c olorado.edu 03/30/2004 03:56 PM Please respond to siouan On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, [windows-1252] "Alfred W. Tüting" wrote: > > Paroisse de l?Immaculée Conception de Pain Court > > C?est la misère extrême des ancêtres qui a donné le jour au nom de Pain > Court. Les missionnaires disaient : « Je m?en vais dans la mission du > pain court », ou tout simplement : « Je m?en vais à Pain Court. » Et le > nom prit racine pour toujours... << > > It seems that the French speaking author doesn't have problems to quote > the term _pain court_ in the sense of smth like "short of bread" > (although it doesn't look like a real grammatical French rendering, > then). Comments on St. Louis as "Pain court" generally pair this with a comment on Ste. Genevieve as "Misere," suggesting a parallel. It would be interesting to know what the first source is that suggests this. I agree that taking something like "a short loaf" as symbolic of want or perhaps just meagerness seems more consistent with French syntax than other possibilities. In any event, any explanation of the name as applied to St. Louis has to account for its use in three North American placenames dating to French settlements in the area, and probably also to its use in two street names in France. It seems clear that some metaphorical meaning might be involved. It is also possible that the name might reflect the French nickname or dit name of an early resident, though it seems more likely that Paincort as a nickname reflects the same metaphor as the placenames than that the placenames derive from the nickname. This seems likely because of the number of instances of Paincourt as a placename and the tendency to explain it in ways that imply shortages of food rather than as a nickname. Finally, if the sense is taken simply as short bread without too much emphasis on what that might mean, it could represent a none-too-relevant play on an unrelated phrase in another language with a similar sound. This seems less likely because the name does reappear as a placename, and because Native American versions of St. Louis seem to be derived from the French and not vice versa. If we include Allan Taylor's Gros Ventre case, the Native American versions include not just borrowings of the sound sequence by calques of the sense. On the other hand, the Omaha(-Ponca) name might well involve a play on pain [peN]. Something like [peN] might well suggest an underlying ppahi(N) to an Omaha-Ponca speaker, since h tends to be lost in the context V'hV and since ai contracts to e. This is basically Rory's suggestion, of course. This might then lead to various wordplays that would accomodate that sequence, even if they had meanings that were unrelated to the original, but relevant somehow to the context in a humorous way. If Omaha-Ponca speakers were in the habit of referring to St. Louis as Ppe ~ Ppa(h)i(N), rendering Pain(court), they might easily interpret this as 'Headhair, Scalp' or 'Neck' at the first stage, and then adapt this first to ppahi(N) z^ide 'red hair' explained as a reference to Clark and later reexplain even that as 'red neck', even if the word for 'hair' or 'neck' weren't quite right. The 'redneck' explanation probably dates to the 1900s, or subsequent to whenever the term redneck became common. Some of the same forms might apply in other Siouan languages in the area, and so Rory is quite right to ask after these. It occurs to me that personal names such as "Batchi" [bac^hi?] for Sarpy and "Jo" for Joseph LaFlesche has some similar potential. The potential here is along the lines of the ethnonym Jew in Winnebago or the word for 'turkey' in various Muskogean languages, both of which are explicitly attested elsewhere. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 31 07:13:40 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 00:13:40 -0700 Subject: St. Louis - Pain Court; Ndeck and Other ppahV forms. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > I agree with John's excellent summary of the question. Just one > small quibble: ... > > The 'red neck' interpretation comes from Dorsey, who I believe > died in 1894. Therefore, this Omaha word pre-dates the 1900s. Quite right. I had lost track of your comment that the 'red neck' version was in Dorsey. I don't actually know the first date of attestation of 'redneck' in English, though perhaps the OED does. Note, as far as the issue of OP terms for 'neck': Swetland 1991:125 pa'hi (/ppa'hi/) 'neck' Swetland 1991:269 tai' (/tta'(h)i/ 'back of the head' These forms are presumably taken from Fletcher & LaFlesche 1972:107-109 and vetted by Elizabeth Stabler, who worked with Mark. Dorsey also lists ppa'hi, sometimes ppahi', 'neck'. An interesting construction is ppa'hi=xti=(khe) 'right on (the) neck'. I didn't find ttai or ttahi in the texts. It may be that ppahi has expanded at the expense of ttahi in OP. Apart from ppa'hi 'neck, hair of the head' (Swetland), I find ppa (?), pha (?) 'bitter', ppai' or ppai' 'sharp', ppahiN 'quill', bahiN 'porcupine'. In the Dorsey texts 'hair' is always hiN' '(animal) body hair' or na(N)z^i'ha 'human (head) hair'. The compound tte'ppahi 'buffalo neck' occurs. The inclusion of some of these forms will make sense with further reading. In Osage LaFlesche lists ppa 'bitter', ppahi' 'sharp', ppa'hiN 'porcupine', and instances of ppa'hiN and ppahu' as '(head) hair'. I also found tta'hu 'neck', but cce'ppahi (sic for ceppahu?) 'neck of buffalo'. OP ppai' 'sharp' is sometimes considered to appear as -ppe in OP maNspe 'axe' < *maNzeppe 'axe', but cf. Osage maNhiNspe, which suggests a different pattern of contraction. Kaw has ppa(a)'hi 'sharp', also ppahi' (JOD), ppa'hiN 'porcupine; hair', ppahu' 'hair of the human head below the crest'. 'Neck' is given as tta'hu. Quapaw has ppahi' 'head', ppahi' 'bitter', ppahiN' 'porcupine', and ttai'tta 'neck'. Note that the possible constituent elements here are ppa 'head, nose', hi < *hu 'stalk, stem, tree', hiN 'body hair, fur'. I haven't looked tonight to see how these terms play out further afield than Dhegiha, though I recall that some of them do occur, in similar forms. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 31 07:26:16 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 00:26:16 -0700 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > Well here's an outside possibility! There is an entry in > Francis La Flesche's Osage dictionary: > > zhiN'da, it was not. > > I've never run across this in OP, and there doesn't seem > to be any elaboration on it in the Osage dictionary either. I'm pretty sure that this is an example of a class of form sometimes found in LaFlesche's work - the Osage dicitonary or glossing of Omaha songs in Fletcher & LaFlesche, etc., that arises from trying to make sense of a segment of a larger sequence without parsing it properly. In this case, I suspect the negative enclitic =(a)z^i has been fused with some following element. I don't know what the following element is, these enclitic complexes being one of the places where the various Dhegiha languages differ strongly, and the context being absent. However, I did find iN-da, glossed 'I am', which is also fairly improbable. To be perfectly fair Dorsey does this sort of thing, too, but I usually encounter it in his work in texts where it is easier to correct for. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Mar 31 14:58:16 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 08:58:16 -0600 Subject: St. Louis - Pain Court; Ndeck and Other ppahV forms. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > I don't actually know the first date of attestation of 'redneck' in > English, though perhaps the OED does. U.S. A member of the white rural labouring class of the southern States; one whose attitudes are considered characteristic of this class; freq., a reactionary. Originally, and still often, derogatory, but now also used with more sympathy for the aspirations of the rural American. 1830 A. ROYALL Southern Tour I. 148 This may be ascribed to the Red Necks, a name bestowed upon the Presbyterians in Fayetteville. 1893 H. A. SHANDS Some Peculiarities of Speech in Mississippi 53 Red-neck,..a name applied by the better class of people to the poorer inhabitants of the rural districts. 1904 Dialect Notes II. 420 Redneck, n., An uncouth countryman. 'The hill-billies came from the hills, and the rednecks from the swamps.' etc. The current revision hasn't reached R, so there may well be earlier examples (perhaps including Episcopalians and animists). Alan From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Wed Mar 31 15:16:21 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:16:21 +0100 Subject: St. Louis - Pain Court; Ndeck and Other ppahV forms. Message-ID: Regarding 'redneck': Note also that Afrikaans, and latterly South African English, has rooinek, literally 'red neck', for an unsophisticated rural person. Anthony. >>> ahartley at d.umn.edu 31/03/2004 15:58:16 >>> Koontz John E wrote: > I don't actually know the first date of attestation of 'redneck' in > English, though perhaps the OED does. U.S. A member of the white rural labouring class of the southern States; one whose attitudes are considered characteristic of this class; freq., a reactionary. Originally, and still often, derogatory, but now also used with more sympathy for the aspirations of the rural American. 1830 A. ROYALL Southern Tour I. 148 This may be ascribed to the Red Necks, a name bestowed upon the Presbyterians in Fayetteville. 1893 H. A. SHANDS Some Peculiarities of Speech in Mississippi 53 Red-neck,..a name applied by the better class of people to the poorer inhabitants of the rural districts. 1904 Dialect Notes II. 420 Redneck, n., An uncouth countryman. 'The hill-billies came from the hills, and the rednecks from the swamps.' etc. The current revision hasn't reached R, so there may well be earlier examples (perhaps including Episcopalians and animists). Alan From rankin at ku.edu Wed Mar 31 16:07:33 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:07:33 -0600 Subject: Rosetta Stone dot com Message-ID: Thanks much, Linda!! This is very much what I suspected. I just wanted to double-check. Best, Bob -----Original Message----- From: lcumberl at indiana.edu [mailto:lcumberl at indiana.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 3:58 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Rosetta Stone dot com Bob, A few years back when I was at the AAA conference in Toronto doing a poster session on our Institute's software, there was a Rosetta Stone exhibit at the same time and I had a chance to go through their demonstration. My impression was that, as far as indigenous langauges go, - and I emphasize that this is not current information -- they were largely style over substance. Their program was a template that they used for any and all languages, very colorful, lots of nice photos, and two voice print bars across the top of the screen that showed the native speaker's wave form and then yours, so you could compare your effort to the native speaker's. Watching other people play around with the program, I observed that virtually no one knew what to do with the wave forms (surprise, surprise!). The capacity for vocabulary is very limited, and as far as I could see, there was no grammar at all. Later, at a Stabilizing Indigenous Languages conference, I spoke with some members of a Seminole band from Florida who had used them and were unhappy with the results. And, as you observe, the expense. Rosetta Stone was not a turnkey operation, it turns out. In addition to providing the speakers, the tribe had to provide a suitable recording environment, some of the recording equipment, and a few other things that I can't recall now, all at their own (additional) expense. I should point out that my reservations about Rosetta Stone have nothing to do with the fact that we do software development here -- ours are not commercial products and we are not in competition with Rosetta Stone. It just seemed to me that the product didn't have much depth and cost an awful lot of money for what it was. Linda Quoting "Rankin, Robert L" : > Does any of you know anything about the company that uses the name > RosettaStone.com? There is some interest among some members of the > tribal government in Kaw City, OK in contracting with this commercial > language teaching outfit for putting together Kaw Language > internet-accessible courses. I know nothing about them, but I have > trouble seeing just what they would do for the rather large fees they > ask. If any of you has had experience with this company or knows > anyone who has, I'd like to hear about it. > > Thanks, > > Bob > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 2 07:14:10 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:14:10 -0700 Subject: calumet de paix In-Reply-To: <404092D2.8471.7054D@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 bi1 at soas.ac.uk wrote: > Haven't seen it in, Lakota, but there is the related expression chanli > yus^ka 'untie the tobacco bundles' signifying 'to make peace' and later > on wicazo yuthanpi 'touching the pen' signifying to make a treaty (with > the whites) At the risk of partially reversing myself, here's an example of peace-making in the Dorsey texts involving a pipe. There is no spdecific reference to peace, only to ceasing fighting. JOD 1890:400.6-7 Ni(N)ni'(N)ba ha's^i thi'= thaN e' i'naNs^taN=bi=ama pipe later he arrived here the-standing that they stopped QUOTE It was the second man who presented the pipe that they stopped for. The main verb is i'naNstaN 'to stop by means of'. The e' clearly forms a focussing cleft. "It was the second whom they stopped for" as opposed to the first man (who was killed for his trouble). I think that nini'ba 'pipe' and thi'=thaN 'the one who came' are separate arguments of i'naNs^taN 'they stopped for the one who came by means of (on account of) (the) pipe'. The alternative 'they stopped for the one who brought (came bringing) (the) pipe' requires thi' to act as a transitive verb. There is also a case of a pipe being used to make war: JOD 1890:395.7-9 GaN' ni'kkagahi=akha ni[N]ni'[N]ba waxu'be gagha'=i= khe and so chief the pipe holy he made it the uz^i'=bi= ama he filled it QUOTE The chief filled a pipe which he held sacred. GaN' g=a'=bi= ama: and so he said as follows QUOTE And he spoke thus: "Ni[N]ni[N]'ba ga'=khe ppaN'dhiN waNgakhidha=tta=i=the pipe yon the Pawnees we shall surely revenge ourselves on i'dhana[N]hiN=i=kki, dhana'=i= ga ha. you are willing if put your lips to it IMP DEC If you are willing that we should revenge ourselves on the Pawnees, participate in this pipe. Us^ni's^?aga=i= kki, dhana'=b=az^i= ga ha, a'=bi= ama You are unwilling if do not put your lips to it IMP DEC he said QUOTE If you are unwilling, do not participate," he said. From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Tue Mar 2 11:53:30 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:53:30 -0000 Subject: calumet de paix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Back on the pipes, there is a verb given by Buechel as iyataN or iyathaN 'to touch the pipe with the lips'. I have always presumed this to be iyathaN like eyuthaN 'to touch', but have seen both forms. Does anyone know? Bruce From hhgarvin at hotmail.com Tue Mar 2 13:33:40 2004 From: hhgarvin at hotmail.com (hhgarvin at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 07:33:40 -0600 Subject: Details Message-ID: Your document is attached. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: my_details.pif Type: application/octet-stream Size: 17424 bytes Desc: not available URL: From napshawin at msn.com Tue Mar 2 15:48:51 2004 From: napshawin at msn.com (CATCHES VIOLET) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 09:48:51 -0600 Subject: calumet de paix Message-ID: iyatan means to light the pipe(one has to put the pipe to the mouth to light it) but iyatxan does not exist unpe means to smoke it yagxu means to smoke all the tobacco in the pipe Violet Catches, miye >From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: RE: calumet de paix >Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:53:30 -0000 > >Back on the pipes, there is a verb given by Buechel as iyataN or >iyathaN 'to touch the pipe with the lips'. I have always presumed this to >be iyathaN like eyuthaN 'to touch', but have seen both forms. Does >anyone know? > >Bruce > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Create a Job Alert on MSN Careers and enter for a chance to win $1000! http://msn.careerbuilder.com/promo/kaday.htm?siteid=CBMSN_1K&sc_extcmp=JS_JASweep_MSNHotm2 From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Mar 2 18:29:31 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 19:29:31 +0100 Subject: calumet de (la) paix Message-ID: That's what I found: iya'txaN - to touch with the mouth iya'taN - to light (e.g a pipe) e'yutaN - to go near and touch iyutaN - to go near and touch yutxaN' - to touch, to feel yutxaN'txaNkel ma'ni - to grope, as a blind person does Apparably, the i-affixes are instrumental, _-ya-_ and _-yu-_ stand for mouth/tooth and hand action respectively. But what's about with the different pronunciations of _txaN_/_taN_?? How's the 'go near' part of _e'yutan/iyutan_ expressed?? Alfred From rankin at ku.edu Tue Mar 2 18:54:23 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:54:23 -0600 Subject: calumet de paix Message-ID: This is interesting. I wonder if these verbs are related to the Kansa/Osage verb /ibache/ /ipache/ (both langs. Have aspirated /c/ here)? It is the name of the clan that 'lights the sacred pipe'. The sound correspondences don't quite match. The final vowels are different and the Dhegiha stop is definitely aspirated, but the semantics are quite similar -- just a different instrumental prefix. Bob -----Original Message----- From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk [mailto:bi1 at soas.ac.uk] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 5:54 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: calumet de paix Back on the pipes, there is a verb given by Buechel as iyataN or iyathaN 'to touch the pipe with the lips'. I have always presumed this to be iyathaN like eyuthaN 'to touch', but have seen both forms. Does anyone know? Bruce From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 2 19:01:33 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:01:33 -0700 Subject: calumet de (la) paix In-Reply-To: <4044D28B.9030500@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: > e'yutaN - to go near and touch > iyutaN - to go near and touch > yutxaN' - to touch, to feel > > Apparably, the i-affixes are instrumental, _-ya-_ and _-yu-_ stand for > mouth/tooth and hand action respectively. But what's about with the > different pronunciations of _txaN_/_taN_?? If you used Buechel, it might be inconsistency in marking. What I wonder about is i- vs. e-. In OP e- in forms like this would be either a dative form with a- (e- < a-(g)i-) or a demonstrative. There is a -ttaN 'touch' root in OP (usually written as if -thaN by Dorsey). > How's the 'go near' part of _e'yutan/iyutan_ expressed?? Perhaps this is implicit in being able to touch with the hand? JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 2 19:09:59 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:09:59 -0700 Subject: calumet de paix In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164DF3@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > This is interesting. I wonder if these verbs are related to the > Kansa/Osage verb /ibache/ /ipache/ (both langs. Have aspirated /c/ > here)? It is the name of the clan that 'lights the sacred pipe'. The > sound correspondences don't quite match. The final vowels are different > and the Dhegiha stop is definitely aspirated, but the semantics are > quite similar -- just a different instrumental prefix. Maybe, on reflection that OP root is -the (not thaN). I'd have to check - I've apparently just exceeded the range of my vocabulary. Whatever the vowel is, Dorsey always writes the stop t + opening apostrophe. I'd always understood that this was actually tt, but I don't think I ever elicited it, so my source for that would probably have been Bob. In any event, my impression has always been that when Dorsey specifically indicated aspiration like this in OP he was more or less entirely unreliable. Note that he writes stop + closing apostrophe for ejectives, but fricative plus opening apostrophe for glottalized fricatives. Stop plus opening apostrophe is something else, and I would assume it was aspiration. I don't recall if and what he says. Note that if Dhegiha *-the matches Da *-thaN, that would be a rare case of dental aspirate matching dental aspirate. From rankin at ku.edu Tue Mar 2 20:45:16 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 14:45:16 -0600 Subject: calumet de paix Message-ID: > Maybe, on reflection that OP root is -the (not thaN). The group is discussing a couple of different roots here. There IS a root /ttaN/ 'touch' in Kaw, yuttaN 'to touch'. I don't know if yattaN 'drink' is related or not. But there is also a root */the/. And it gives i-ba-che 'light the sacred pipe'. > Note that he [Dorsey] writes stop + closing apostrophe for ejectives, but fricative plus opening apostrophe for glottalized fricatives. Stop plus opening apostrophe is something else, and I would assume it was aspiration. Unhappily, it varies. Sometimes a stop with the opening apostrophe (spiritus 'asper) is /CC/ i.e. */hC/ but sometimes it is */Ch/. In one or two cases he writes both the apostrophe AND an /h/, as in /op'han/ 'cow elk'. Go figure. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 2 20:56:15 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:56:15 -0700 Subject: calumet de paix In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164DF4@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > The group is discussing a couple of different roots here. There IS a > root /ttaN/ 'touch' in Kaw, yuttaN 'to touch'. I don't know if yattaN > 'drink' is related or not. That would be cognate with Da yatkAN' 'to drink', so it would only be related if Kaw yuttaN involves PMVS *-tkaN as opposed to a hypothetical *-htaN. > But there is also a root */the/. And it gives i-ba-che 'light the > sacred pipe'. > ... > Unhappily, it varies. Sometimes a stop with the opening apostrophe > (spiritus 'asper) is /CC/ i.e. */hC/ but sometimes it is */Ch/. In one > or two cases he writes both the apostrophe AND an /h/, as in /op'han/ > 'cow elk'. Go figure. All I can think of in that respect is that OP aNphaN 'elk' is one of the terms that in OP have ph instead of h from *ph. From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Mar 3 17:50:50 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 17:50:50 -0000 Subject: calumet de paix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you Violet. That was what I wanted to know Bruce On 2 Mar 2004 at 9:48, CATCHES VIOLET wrote: Date sent: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 09:48:51 -0600 Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: "CATCHES VIOLET" To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: calumet de paix > > iyatan means to light the pipe(one has to put the pipe to the mouth to light > it) > but > iyatxan does not exist > unpe means to smoke it > > yagxu means to smoke all the tobacco in the pipe > > Violet Catches, miye > > >From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk > >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > >Subject: RE: calumet de paix > >Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:53:30 -0000 > > > >Back on the pipes, there is a verb given by Buechel as iyataN or > >iyathaN 'to touch the pipe with the lips'. I have always presumed this to > >be iyathaN like eyuthaN 'to touch', but have seen both forms. Does > >anyone know? > > > >Bruce > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Create a Job Alert on MSN Careers and enter for a chance to win $1000! > http://msn.careerbuilder.com/promo/kaday.htm?siteid=CBMSN_1K&sc_extcmp=JS_JASweep_MSNHotm2 > > From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Mar 3 17:58:36 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 17:58:36 -0000 Subject: calumet de (la) paix In-Reply-To: <4044D28B.9030500@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: That was rather my point. I wondered whether iya'txaN - to touch with the mouth and > iya'taN - to light (e.g a pipe) were perhaps the same thing, but had been interpreted differently in different contexts. The i- prefix looks as though it refers to mouth as in i-ognaka 'put in the mouth'. I see however the Vilolet says that iyathaN does not exist, but that iyataN means to 'raise the pipe to the lips' Bruce On 2 Mar 2004 at 19:29, Alfred W. T?ting wrote: Date sent: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 19:29:31 +0100 Send reply to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu From: "Alfred W. T?ting" To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: calumet de (la) paix > That's what I found: > > > iya'txaN - to touch with the mouth > iya'taN - to light (e.g a pipe) > e'yutaN - to go near and touch > iyutaN - to go near and touch > yutxaN' - to touch, to feel > yutxaN'txaNkel ma'ni - to grope, as a blind person does > > Apparably, the i-affixes are instrumental, _-ya-_ and _-yu-_ stand for > mouth/tooth and hand action respectively. But what's about with the > different pronunciations of _txaN_/_taN_?? > How's the 'go near' part of _e'yutan/iyutan_ expressed?? > > Alfred > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Mar 4 08:08:49 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 01:08:49 -0700 Subject: calumet de paix In-Reply-To: <40409751.11380.1892F4@localhost> Message-ID: When I was looking for matches for OP nudaN' I stumbled on Da (Te) zuya' (wazu'ye A1, etc.), which is listed in Ingham as 'to go on a war party, raid'. This is pretty much equivalent to OP nudaN in definition. Buechel has it as 'to go on a war party, to make war, to lead out a war party' and agrees with prefixal inflection. The definition is taken from Riggs in this case, but Riggs shows the inflection as zuwa'ya A1, etc. On the other hand the cognate for nudaN' is found in Te blota'huNka 'war chief', cf. OP nudaN'haNga 'war leader'. This is the term (in OP) specifically for the leader of a raiding party. So the Mississippi Valley forms are: Te blota'- (Not attested in Santee that I can see.) OP nudaN', Ks dodaN', Os totaN', Qu totaN' IO dothaN', Wi doochaN' This is a fairly irregular set. The Dhegiha set suggest *RotaN, or given that *pr behaves like *R in nouns, it could be *protaN. Compare Te ble' 'lake' and OP ne', Ks j^e, etc. The IO and Wi set suggest *RohtaN' (or *prohtaN'). Teton is consistent with *prota', lacking the nasalization. The irregularities may be explicable. The CSD compares Madan rotki- 'to hit' and Tutelo e'ruta'one 'warrior', where at last the latter looks reasonable. Perhaps because we know so little about Tutelo, of course! The editors (Carter, Jones and Rankin) suggest that the final nasal where present is due to fusing with *uN 'to do, make', and point to the -one at the end of the Tutelo form (oN + ???). They then observe that the Hidatsa form maceeriiri 'warpath, war party' is a transparent compound of matse 'man' (not 'male') and dide 'walk'. (I have these component forms from W. Matthews, who gives matsedidi for 'warparty'. The difference in source explains the change in orthography. Note that c = ts.) The editors suggest that the underlying form is *pro-ta=(uN), with -ta- unexplained. They wonder if analysis of *pro- as a separate morpheme 'male' is secondary. They suggest that the aspiration in IO-Wi may be due to an analogy with *htaNh- 'to run'. They note Choctaw tanampi 'be hostile, fight, beat war', though, of course, the resemblance here pretty vague. (I might be responsible for noting the similarity.) Munro and Willmond give clearly related Chickasaw tanap (IIIp => III series pronouns for possession) 'war' with related stems intanap 'enemy', tanampo 'gun', tannap 'other side'. I could be wrong, but I think these related stems might represent something like a typical selection of derived stems, i.e., in this case dative, continuative (?), and intensive. However I am not the person to go to for Muskogean morphology! My Muskogean resources are pretty limited, but I didn't notice a comparable Alabama form in Systestine, Hardy and Montler. Choctaw and Chickasaw are pretty close - different points in a dialect continuum, perhaps. Terms for 'foreign nation' and 'stranger' in OP generally tend to imply enmity, too. On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 bi1 at soas.ac.uk wrote: > Interesting about 'war'. I have seen a phrase ob kicis unpi 'they were > figting them' meaning they were at war with them. Generally also the > phrase thokkiciyapi 'consider eachother enemies ' is heard, but as in > many societies 'foreigners' or 'strangers' were generally 'enemies' > unless some special arrangement had been made. Or at least that is the > picture that emerges from texts such as those of Buechel, Deloria and > Bushotter. In arabic too the word qom meaning in one sense 'people' > also means 'enemies', or at least among the bedouin that is so. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Mar 4 16:24:45 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:24:45 -0600 Subject: calumet de paix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > Te blota'- > (Not attested in Santee that I can see.) How about Riggs' mde-tang'-hung-ka (perhaps, as Bob suggested, for mdo-tang'-hung-ka), which he cites alongside Te blo-tang'-hung-ka ? > OP nudaN', Ks dodaN', Os totaN', Qu totaN' > > IO dothaN', Wi doochaN' The IO, Ks, Os and Qu all forms look like pretty good matches for Capt. Clark's Torto-hongar (Partezon) from 1804. The other two Teton chiefs recognized in the same ceremony were: Un-ton gar-Sar bar, Black Buffalow Tar-ton-gar-wa-ker, Buffalow medison The latter seems good Teton (dropping the r's), but what about the former? What is "Un-ton gar"? Why would one Teton chief be given an IO or Ks name and the other two(?) Te names? OP would seem a more logical non-Teton source geographically and given the presence in the party of Omaha-speaker Pierre Cruzatte, but the OP n- doesn't fit for Torto-hongar. Thanks, Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Mar 4 16:35:41 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 09:35:41 -0700 Subject: calumet de paix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It occurred to me that I failed to give my opinion on several of the points reported. On Thu, 4 Mar 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > The editors (Carter, Jones and Rankin) suggest that the final nasal where > present is due to fusing with *uN 'to do, make', and point to the -one at > the end of the Tutelo form (oN + ???). This is an interesting suggestion, but in that case I'd expect IO *tothuN and Wi *dooc^uN, whereas -aN is what is attested. Usually in MVS V=V sequences V2 wins out, rather than a merger occurring. I've run into the same problem trying to account for the final aN in the widely attested form s^ahaN 'Dakota speaker' in terms of the also widely attested s^ahi 'Cree, Cheyenne'. It appeals, but doesn't quite work right. > They then observe that the Hidatsa form maceeriiri 'warpath, war party' > is a transparent compound of matse 'man' (not 'male') and dide 'walk'. This is likely to be a helpful comparison, given that the initial seems to be *pro, which could be 'male'. It would be helpful to know how widely this formula is used elsewhere in the region. Of course, it's possible that the trope refers to 'person (= victim) going' rather than 'male (= like a male) going', and I think that is why the editors note carefully that mace(e) is 'man (person?)' rather than 'male'. > They suggest that the aspiration in IO-Wi may be due to an analogy with > *htaNh- 'to run'. This sort of thing certainly happens, but it's always hard to feel really confident about diagnosing it in languages so little understood lexically. > They note Choctaw tanampi 'be hostile, fight, beat war', though, of > course, the resemblance here pretty vague. (I might be responsible for > noting the similarity.) Although one might explain the loss of -pi by assuming it was taken as a plural, tana(N)- isn't a particularly good match for the *prota(N), *RotaN, *Ro(o)htaN forms observed in Siouan and I would be inclined to withdraw the comparison. It's true that the irregularity of the set makes one wonder about loans, but with loans you expect a pretty exact fit as to form, within the bounds of reanalysis and phonology. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Mar 4 16:46:36 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 09:46:36 -0700 Subject: calumet de paix In-Reply-To: <4047584D.8060505@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > Koontz John E wrote: > > Te blota'- > > (Not attested in Santee that I can see.) > > How about Riggs' mde-tang'-hung-ka (perhaps, as Bob suggested, for > mdo-tang'-hung-ka), which he cites alongside Te blo-tang'-hung-ka ? I missed the form in Riggs and in Rankin's suggestion - which I take it was a recent post? [I hope I didn't overlook this in the CSD!] The -tang- provides a final nasal and allows us to suppose *protaN', a better match for the *RotaN < *protaN forms in Dhegiha. > > OP nudaN', Ks dodaN', Os totaN', Qu totaN' > > > > IO dothaN', Wi doochaN' > > The IO, Ks, Os and Qu all forms look like pretty good matches for Capt. > Clark's Torto-hongar (Partezon) from 1804. > > The other two Teton chiefs recognized in the same ceremony were: > > Un-ton gar-Sar bar, Black Buffalow > > Tar-ton-gar-wa-ker, Buffalow medison > > The latter seems good Teton (dropping the r's), but what about the > former? What is "Un-ton gar"? I don't know. The second part looks like thaNka 'big', of course. > Why would one Teton chief be given an IO or Ks name and the other two(?) > Te names? > > OP would seem a more logical non-Teton source geographically and given > the presence in the party of Omaha-speaker Pierre Cruzatte, but the OP > n- doesn't fit for Torto-hongar. It does look more like, say, Osage or IO. Could it be (m)torto-hangar? I'm thinking this is the second case recently encountered where L&C provide a form logically attributed to the translator as if it was the one provided by the original speaker ... but I can't remember what the first case was. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Mar 4 17:08:27 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 11:08:27 -0600 Subject: calumet de paix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I missed the form in Riggs and in Rankin's suggestion - which I take it > was a recent post? 13 Oct. 2003 > It does look more like, say, Osage or IO. Could it be (m)torto-hangar? I think you're right: I suggested that back in Oct. and had already forgotten. > I'm thinking this is the second case recently encountered where L&C > provide a form logically attributed to the translator as if it was the one > provided by the original speaker ... but I can't remember what the first > case was. Probably the same case: apologies for twice-chewed cabbage. Alan From rankin at ku.edu Fri Mar 5 19:09:23 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:09:23 -0600 Subject: More on font(s) for Siouan Message-ID: Some time ago, in a message to the Siouan list, Constantine Xmelnickii recommended a new Unicode font available from the University of Frankfurt. Since I now have an XP machine that automatically supports Unicode, I finally got around to downloading the font. It does indeed contain every symbol I could conceivably use in Siouan linguistics, or any other language for that matter. It also includes a large variety of foreign alphabets, among them Cyrillic (all variants), Greek (all variants), Georgian, Arabic, Japanese, Ethiopic, Armenian and others, plus the entire IPA. It is so inclusive that you might have trouble locating a particular symbol in all the variety. It's certainly worth downloading (it's free), and at some point we may be able to shift to using it on the Siouan list (although for the moment, I don't know if things like Unix mailers, etc. are compatible). The URL for the font is: http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/indexe.htm . Look along the right hand side of the display for "fonts" and click. It will give you instructions for downloading for either PC or MAC. Thanks Constantine! Bob Robert L. Rankin, Ph.D. Professor of Linguistics University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045 USA (785) 864-2874 office (913)369-9022 home -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Mar 5 22:41:07 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 16:41:07 -0600 Subject: calumet de paix Message-ID: >> The other two Teton chiefs recognized in the same ceremony were: >> >> Un-ton gar-Sar bar, Black Buffalow >> >> Tar-ton-gar-wa-ker, Buffalow medison >> >> The latter seems good Teton (dropping the r's), but what about the >> former? What is "Un-ton gar"? >I don't know. The second part looks like thaNka 'big', of course. Could the "Un" be short for oN'phoN, with a mistranslation of "Buffalow" for "Elk"? Rory From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sat Mar 6 01:06:03 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:06:03 -0600 Subject: calumet de paix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rory M Larson wrote: >>>The other two Teton chiefs recognized in the same ceremony were: >>> >>>Un-ton gar-Sar bar, Black Buffalow >>> >>>Tar-ton-gar-wa-ker, Buffalow medison >>> >>>The latter seems good Teton (dropping the r's), but what about the >>>former? What is "Un-ton gar"? > > >>I don't know. The second part looks like thaNka 'big', of course. > > > Could the "Un" be short for oN'phoN, with a mistranslation of > "Buffalow" for "Elk"? That would be uncharacteristically drastic truncation for these journals. Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Mar 8 13:42:13 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 07:42:13 -0600 Subject: Quoppaumokee Message-ID: Benjamin Hawkins, U.S. supt. of Indian agents south of the Ohio River ca. 1800, says (Letters, 1916, 434) "They [the Creeks] went to war with the Quoppaumookee (Delaware) against the Ozauzee.." Is anyone familiar with the name Quoppaumookee? It looks like it includes "Quapaw". Martin and Mauldin (Dict. of Creek) give only wa:pan?hki for 'Delaware'. (I assume Ozauzee is Osage.) Thanks, Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Mar 8 13:50:09 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 07:50:09 -0600 Subject: Quoppaumokee Message-ID: Ives Goddard just set me straight: "Just a misreading with Qu for Ou and m for nn or n." So, Quoppaumokee = Ouoppannoki = wa:pan?hki Alan From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 8 13:58:33 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 08:58:33 -0500 Subject: Quoppaumokee In-Reply-To: <404C7A11.6020706@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Right. This happens quite a bit with O and Q, whence the infamous "Quabache" (for Ouabache), which is seen to this day in local tourist guides. Michael On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > Ives Goddard just set me straight: "Just a misreading with Qu for Ou and > m for nn or n." > > So, Quoppaumokee = Ouoppannoki = wa:pan?hki > > Alan > > > "Sometimes naked Sometimes mad Now the scholar Now the fool Thus they appear on the earth the free ones" -from the Hindu From boris at terracom.net Mon Mar 8 21:03:00 2004 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 15:03:00 -0600 Subject: Quoppaumokee In-Reply-To: <404C7835.1060208@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Alan Not being aware of the context, here's a shot in the dark.... ozauzee< Ozaukee (Sauk?) Alan K From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Mar 8 21:24:28 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 15:24:28 -0600 Subject: Quoppaumokee In-Reply-To: <009b01c40550$c1166750$9e5faad0@alscom> Message-ID: Alan Knutson wrote: > Not being aware of the context, here's a shot in the dark.... ozauzee< > Ozaukee (Sauk?) 'Ozauzee' is probably 'Osage' from Dhegiha waz^?z^e, with initial o- indicating transmission through an Algonquian language (or being a natural English pron. of unstressed wV- ?) See Doug Parks' synonymy in HNAI 13.493-5. Alan H. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 10 00:56:37 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 17:56:37 -0700 Subject: Virus Mail Warning Message-ID: If any of you received from this list a March 2nd message with the heading "Details" supposedly from Henning Garvin, please delete it without opening the attachment, nominally a *.pif file. This appears to be one of the present round of viruses or worms. My thanks to Henning for the warning. I either did not receive it myself - perhaps due to Unversity mail filtering - or deleted it automatically without noticing it was on the list. My regrets to any of you who may have been affected by this. This message is definitely in the archives and I am having it removed. Anything posted to the list by a legitimate member of the list is accepted for posting, though filtering at the right points may eliminate worm posts before the reach the list server or individual users. It is conceivable that the post was not from Henning but from some other list member. I'm not sure how thorough the validation of originating addresses of incoming mail is by the list server. This post would have to have passed through both the University of Colorado's list server and the LinguistList archive's incoming mail server, but it looks like it didn't pass through the Unversity of Colorado's incoming mail server. I think the less general discussion of this gets into the archives the better. If you have any comments please send them to me off list. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Mar 10 02:30:18 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 20:30:18 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man"? Message-ID: I'm wondering about MVS terms for "white man". Da: was^i'c^uN (nearly synonymous with wakhaN', according to Riggs.) OP: wa'xe (wa-axe ?? axe = ?? [x] is the voiceless form here.) Osage: iNs^ta'-xiN ("yellow-eyes", according to La Flesche.) What other ones do we have? I'd be especially interested in Iowa, Oto, Hochunk and Kaw. Can anyone suggest a derivation for the OP term? I think the explanation given in Fletcher and La Flesche (p. 81-82) is fanciful. I was tempted to think of axe as "cry out for" something, e.g. war, but this verb has the voiced form of [x] according to Dorsey; thus ag^e, "cry out for", vs. wa'h^e, "white man". Thanks, Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 10 04:14:25 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 21:14:25 -0700 Subject: Terms for "white man"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Mar 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > Da: was^i'c^uN (nearly synonymous with wakhaN', > according to Riggs.) I have some discussion at http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/faq/etymology.htm#washichun, but I basically follow the conclusions of Powers, William K. 1986. Sacred Language: the Nature of Supernatural Discourse in Lakota. University of Oklahoma Press. > OP: wa'xe (wa-axe ?? axe = ?? > [x] is the voiceless form here.) I truely doubt the waxaN'ha etymology offered by Fletcher & LaFlesche, since x and h seem to me only likely to interchange for an English speaker. I also doubt the wa-(g)a'ghe 'maker' explanation commonly offered, modulo some possiiblity of mistaking wa(a)'ghe for wa(a)'xe. If the form is analyzable in OP, and not a loan, it should be analyzable in terms of wa-(a)'xe or wa-(g)a'xe. The morphophonemic elision of g in these contexts would be regular, of course. Looking at the Dorsey texts - in lieu of a more readily accessible extensive dictionary - I see gaxe' ("gaqe'") (ablauting to ga'xa- ~ gaxa'-) 'beyond, apart, aside', which might well be relevant, e.g., wa-(g)a'xe might be 'outsiders, ones apart'. I had not previously noticed this possibility. Notice that 'aside, beyond' are also associated in Latinate except, exception, exceptional, though I doubt this has any relevance here! There is also a less likely possibility in terms of -ga-xade, as in idha'gaxade 'covered' (referring to wearing clothes) and a'gaxade 'covering' (referring to a doorway), or gaxa'daN=xc^i (maybe gaxad(e) aN=xc^i) 'with fur standing on end'. The semantics might be kind of fun, but it's just not that likely that -(ad)- would be elided, though a form like gaxa'e might occur in fast speech. Gaxa' 'branch (of tree), creek' also doesn't seem likely. > Osage: iNs^ta'-xiN ("yellow-eyes", according to La Flesche.) > > What other ones do we have? I'd be especially interested in > Iowa, Oto, Hochunk and Kaw. I'll leave these to the usual suspects, but add: Mandan waNs^i' [maNs^i'] Hidatsa mas^i (as rendered by Washington Matthews, albeit substituting s^ for s-dot) One hypothesis here is a borrowing of 'monsieur'. In fact, waa'xe isn't impossibly far from that, though I'd expect the initial m to come through as m, not w. We'd be assuming that s^ was shifted to x as some sort of fricative gradation, and noticing that final -i has a tendency to become e. I'm reluctant to suggest this with an even halfway plausible Omaha-Ponca-based etymology. The phonology of these forms in Mandan and Hidatsa is interesting. In Mandan m is usually considered since Hollow's analysis to be a variant of w conditioned by a following nasal vowel, though I seem to recall that Dick Carter had some caveats about that. In Hidatsa, on the other hand m is considered to be a variant of w conditioned by initial position. Hidatsa has no nasal vowels. In spite of both of these assumptions, this word is clearly a loan from somewhere, even if the source is Siouan-internal, and so, clearly, this form shows that m can also be borrowed in at least one of the two languages, whether or not we assume a French source. From hhgarvin at hotmail.com Wed Mar 10 04:21:11 2004 From: hhgarvin at hotmail.com (Henning Garvin) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:21:11 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man"? Message-ID: Hocank generally refers to whiteman as : /maaNhi-xete/ or "big knife", literally. There is another term that is commonly used: /wareiNnk/ I've been told that this use to refer specifically to Germans, and was in reference to them always working their farms, and that it translates as "little worker", but I am not so certain about that one. There are a number of other terms for different European nationalities, but I don't have that material with me right now. Henning Garvin Linguistic research Ho-Chunk Nation Language Division _________________________________________________________________ One-click access to Hotmail from any Web page ? download MSN Toolbar now! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 10 05:05:10 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:05:10 -0700 Subject: Terms for "white man"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Mar 2004, Henning Garvin wrote: > /maaNhi-xete/ or "big knife", literally. > There is another term /wareiNnk/ > I've been told that this use to refer specifically to Germans, and was in > reference to them always working their farms, and that it translates as > "little worker", but I am not so certain about that one. It's interesting to compare Henning's forms with the entries in Miner: maN'iNxete' 'white person, non-Indian' He also gives maNaN'hiNxete' 'butcher knife', but doesn't give the etymology of (contracted) maN'iNxete' even though comparable forms in the sense 'American' are pretty common, e.g., OP maN'hiNttaNga, Da mi'la haNska. wareniN'ka 'worker, wageman (slang for whiteman)' The final -ka is unusual. This is uncontracted (n not elided). The etymology is implicit, but the association with Germans in particular is not mentioned. There's another term that is, I think, older, though also more or less obsolete in the sense 'whiteman', and that is waxopiN'ni(N) 'spirit, white person'. I think this historical form is interesting as an analog of was^i'c^u(N). The -xo(o)p- part is cognate with OP xube' 'sacred', usually distinguished by accent from xu'be 'inebriated' which has a different etymological source. (I think I have the accent right here, and my apologies if not.) Dorsey actually gives xube' (mostly) ~ xu'be (once) 'sacred' and doesn't attest the inebriated form at all. Finally, I forgot to mention that Mandan maNs^i' 'whiteman' is also the name of the Trickster, who is consequently generally called 'Whiteman' in English discussions of Mandan Trickster stories. This is the logical extension of the association of the concepts 'spider', 'trickster', and 'whiteman' that occur elsewhere in the northern plains, e.g., in Cheyenne (all three) and in Dakota (spider, trickster). I suspect that in Mandan the former 'whiteman' term has ousted the former 'trickster' term - a pity since those terms are interesting, too. I don't have the Hidatsa temr for 'spider', but the Mandan form is waNxti'riNk [maNxtiniNk] < waNxti' 'rabbit' + riNk diminutive. I don't know if waNs^i' and waNxti' are close enough in Mandan to interfere (via fricative symbolism). Interestingly, Omaha-Ponca ma(N)s^tiN'ge 'rabbit' and Is^ti'niNkhe 'Trickster' are also vaguely similar, though it's really only the s^ti(N) that they have in common. Clearly OP maNs^tiN'ge might be a sort of contracted diminutive of *waNSti' (S for fricative varying in grade), which is what Mandan has for 'rabbit'. That is maNs^tiNge could be < waNs^ti-(r)iNke, the *r suffering the same fate that it suffers in Winnebago ware'(n)iNk. JEK From tleonard at prodigy.net Wed Mar 10 05:26:08 2004 From: tleonard at prodigy.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 23:26:08 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man"? Message-ID: Thought I'd add my 2 cents on this one........ My dad, Joe Rush (Ponca), told me on many, many, occasions that "wa'xe" was an "abbreviation" of wana'xe (ghost or spirit). I've heard the same from many other Ponca elders. He said when Poncas first saw a white man they thought he was a ghost because of his pale color. I've noted some Omaha names that lend credence to this "abbreviation" (if you will).....Ma'chu Wa'xe...translated as "ghost bear". Might be folk etymology.....don't know.....but it seems consistent across the board with Ponca elders and some of the Omaha names that I've seen translated. For what it's worth, TML ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rory M Larson" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 8:30 PM Subject: Terms for "white man"? > > > > > I'm wondering about MVS terms for "white man". > > Da: was^i'c^uN (nearly synonymous with wakhaN', > according to Riggs.) > > OP: wa'xe (wa-axe ?? axe = ?? > [x] is the voiceless form here.) > > Osage: iNs^ta'-xiN ("yellow-eyes", according to La Flesche.) > > What other ones do we have? I'd be especially interested in > Iowa, Oto, Hochunk and Kaw. > > Can anyone suggest a derivation for the OP term? I think the > explanation given in Fletcher and La Flesche (p. 81-82) is > fanciful. I was tempted to think of axe as "cry out for" > something, e.g. war, but this verb has the voiced form of [x] > according to Dorsey; thus ag^e, "cry out for", vs. wa'h^e, > "white man". > > Thanks, > Rory > From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Wed Mar 10 08:16:38 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:16:38 +0100 Subject: Terms for "white man" Message-ID: >Rory: I'm wondering about MVS terms for "white man". Da: was^i'c^uN (nearly synonymous with wakhaN', according to Riggs.)<< One very often reads of wasicun <- wa-sicun [wa-s^i'c^uN] <- sicun (i.e. in the sense given by Riggs). Yet, in today's Native literature, there's commonly(?) referred to a different etymology: was^iN' (fat not dried out, fat meat; pork) + ic^u' (to take, take up anything; accept, receive) -> 'fat-taker' (stealer of fat). What do you think about it? Is it (maybe biased) 'folk etymology'? (phonologically, this derivation doesn't seem to fit too well.) Alfred From jmcbride at kayserv.net Wed Mar 10 14:25:23 2004 From: jmcbride at kayserv.net (Justin McBride) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:25:23 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man"? Message-ID: > What other ones do we have? I'd be especially interested in > Iowa, Oto, Hochunk and Kaw. The Kaw form is is^t?xe (with long a perhaps, Dr. Rankin?), pretty close to the Osage form. It seems to have special meaning with regard to the French, and it also refers to eyebrows. In some combining forms, the x becomes voiced, as in is^t?ghe mas?Nha, 'half French,' and is^t?ghe s?kkoj^e itt?be, 'whiteman's watermelon.' >>From what I gather is common among certain MVS languages, there is a Kaw cognate of "Long Knife," m?NhiN tt?Nga, referring specifically to Americans. It's said to be a reference to a cavalry sabre. -jm From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 10 16:44:18 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:44:18 -0700 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: <404ECEE6.5080300@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: > Yet, in today's Native literature, there's commonly(?) referred to a > different etymology: > was^iN' (fat not dried out, fat meat; pork) + > ic^u' (to take, take up anything; accept, receive) -> 'fat-taker' > (stealer of fat). > > What do you think about it? Is it (maybe biased) 'folk etymology'? > (phonologically, this derivation doesn't seem to fit too well.) Some of those who subscribe to this explanation are deeply loyal to it, and offer detailed justifications for it, but I'm pretty sure it's a folk etymology, i.e., a secondary reanalysis of a term with originally a different explanation. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Mar 10 17:45:40 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:45:40 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man" Message-ID: Alfred wrote: > One very often reads of wasicun <- wa-sicun [wa-s^i'c^uN] <- sicun (i.e. > in the sense given by Riggs). > Yet, in today's Native literature, there's commonly(?) referred to a > different etymology: > was^iN' (fat not dried out, fat meat; pork) + > ic^u' (to take, take up anything; accept, receive) -> 'fat-taker' > (stealer of fat). > > What do you think about it? Is it (maybe biased) 'folk etymology'? > (phonologically, this derivation doesn't seem to fit too well.) I heard this explanation too, in the Lakhota class I took about ten years ago. The instructor didn't seem to take it too seriously. I would agree with him and John that it is a biased folk etymology that post-dates the original meaning. Assuming that it is a jibe against whites for taking the Indians' land and resources, that complaint wouldn't have had any particular salience from the Dakotan point of view until well into the 19th century. They would have been aware of whites as mysterious foreign beings with remarkable equipment that they might obtain through trade all through the 18th century if not earlier. I think it's most likely that the term was established from the time that they first became aware of the existence of whites, I suppose late in the 17th century. Perhaps the Dakotanists could comment on this. Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 10 19:33:25 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:33:25 -0700 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > I would agree with him and John that it is a biased folk etymology that > post-dates the original meaning. Assuming that it is a jibe against > whites for taking the Indians' land and resources, ... I'd qualify this by saying that I don't know that bias or prejudice is really the issue here. Names are sometimes accidentally or even deliberately offensive. The purpose of etymological analysis is to determine meaning and perhaps to learn from it, not to rectify it, though I don't meant to accuse Rory of suggesting the latter. In any event, I'm not offended by fat-thief, which has a certain historical accuracy. I'm merely unconvinced. In any event what informs reanalysis is to a fair extent a simple desire to make sense of the term, though the possibility of punning cannot be ignored. Arbitrary meanings can't really be assigned to a reanalysis in the process of reanalysis, only meanings consistent with the actual form. Lakotas can only opt for fat-thief because the form bears a certain superficial resemblance to it. If it resembled 'sweet-smelling' they'd have to make the best of that. Of course, in the case of punning a certain level of scurilousness is generally desirable if it can be accomodated. The trick is to select a form amenable to the process and apply it successfully. It is true that a certain set of prejudices might determine the firmness with which this reanalysis was subsequently held to be true, but I'm not sure which of the people I've encountered on the net who prefer the fat-stealer analysis are actually Lakotas. I suspect some of them might be people of other ethnic origins who are committed the fat-thief analysis for philosophical reasons. As far as detecting folk etymologies is concerned, it's not always possible, but good indicators are evidence of reformulation to accomodate the analysis, e.g., was^i'c^uN => was^(iN)'=ic^u, or, when this has not occurred, a certain disconnect between the analysis and the material actually occurring, e.g., the problems with s^ahiyela as 'red-speaker' vs. its exact fit with 'little s^ahiya'. Of course, if a form that has been reshaped to fit a reanalysis and the reshaped form has evicted the unreshaped form, it is difficult to know what has happened. One might not even suspect a reanalysis, and if one did, one might not be able to build a good case for it. Solid ethmology usually rests on extensive historical attestation as well as solid lexical and morphological analsysis, and so it is sometimes a bit of an unavailable luxury with Native American languages (or reconstructed Eurasian languages). From rankin at ku.edu Wed Mar 10 19:48:31 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:48:31 -0600 Subject: was^icuN Message-ID: I haven't really looked into the possible etymology of the Dakotan term, but I guess my own linguist's folk etymology of the term was simply 'evil-doer'. I made this up without access to the information that there is a religious term that might serve as a source. I read the item on John's web site and pretty much agree with it. But that first impression of mine was based on the fact that the root *s^ik-E means 'bad' all across Siouan, although it is more prominent in some languages than others. It undergoes the fricative symbolism series and is found in various languages as s^ik- and xik- (I don't know about *sik-). And although apparently some Dakotan lexicographers translate ?uN as 'wear' in this context (the "they wear bad clothes" analysis), the real pan-Siouan verb for 'wear' is *?iN, not ?uN. *?uN is more specifically 'be, do' and it is found all over. I have discussed the distinction between 'do/be' and 'use' (to do with) on this list before and will not recapitulate that discussion here. But *?u:N clearly had the common Siouan meaning 'be', or, more likely 'do'. This verb is also pressed into service as an auxiliary of verbal aspect in a number of languages -- nearly always with some 'past' meaning, most often 'imperfective'. I mention it in my Quapaw sketch. The K-palatalization rule in Dakotan would give s^ic^- 'bad' in that language, and, compounded with ?uN 'do', would mean 'do evil'. Wa- nominalizes it to 'evil-doer'. And, bingo, a ready made (folk?) etymology. And if it is a relatively old term for evil-doers of various sorts, the constituent morphemes might well retain their etymological meanings whether or not they retain those meanings standing alone as s^ic^A and ?uN respectively. On a related topic, the term 'long knives' is also very common, and I used to think it referred to US Cavalry sabres. I seem to recollect, though, that Ives Goddard has researched this and found a much more specific explanation for the term (Kansa maNhiN-ttaNga). I'll check into this and see what I can find. The term "Little Worker" found, I think, in Hochank, wasn't it?, is interesting. I wonder how widespread it is. It is particularly interesting to me because the way you say Little Worker in Delaware is "Tonganoxie", the name of the town nearest to my home here in Kansas. I live on the former Delaware reservation in NE KS. Bob From wablenica at mail.ru Wed Mar 10 19:26:57 2004 From: wablenica at mail.ru (Wablenica) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 22:26:57 +0300 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Rory, Wednesday, March 10, 2004, 8:45:40 PM, you wrote: RML> Assuming RML> that it is a jibe against whites for taking the Indians' land and RML> resources, that complaint wouldn't have had any particular salience RML> from the Dakotan point of view until well into the 19th century. RML> They would have been aware of whites as mysterious foreign beings RML> with remarkable equipment that they might obtain through trade RML> all through the 18th century if not earlier. I think it's most RML> likely that the term was established from the time that they RML> first became aware of the existence of whites, I suppose late in RML> the 17th century. --I wonder what is Assinoboine/Stoney terms for "white man"? If they coincide with Dakota/Lakota was^icuN, that would be additional arguments against the "fat-takers". -- Best regards, Constantine Chmielnicki mailto:wablenica at mail.ru From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Mar 10 20:58:55 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:58:55 -0800 Subject: big knives Message-ID: > On a related topic, the term 'long knives' is also very common, and I used to > think it referred to US Cavalry sabres. I seem to recollect, though, that > Ives Goddard has researched this and found a much more specific explanation > for the term (Kansa maNhiN-ttaNga). I'll check into this and see what I can > find. The 'big knife' epithet for white men is all over the Algonquian languages of the Great Lakes and beyond. I actually wrote a paper on this long ago (but never published it). The crucial article that clarified a lot for me was the following: Woodward, Arthur. 1928. The "Long Knives". Indian Notes, Museum of the American Indian, Heye Foundation 5: 64-79. New York. Here's the relevant excerpt from my paper. I haven't looked at this paper for 6-7 years, so I make no statements about how much I agree with it now, but this provides the outline, at least, provided that Woodward's article is dependable. [if anyone's actually interested in seeing the Algonquian 'big knife' forms I have, let me know.] "At this point it is worth discussing where the 'big knife' term ultimately originated. In an article from 1928, Arthur Woodward persuasively makes a case that the 'big knife' metaphor has its origins in Iroquoian ritual speech. According to Woodward, '?all important men of another nation with whom [the Iroquois] came in contact were, for the sake of convenience and for the purpose of conferring a delicate honor upon them, each given an Iroquois name. If possible the name so conferred was a translation into one of the Iroquois dialects of the English or French name of the conferee.' (page 68) (end of Woodward's quote) "Thus, Woodward traces the origin of the big knife term to such a name bestowed on the governor of Virginia, Lord Howard of Effingham, in 1684. That year, when meeting with a confederation of the Iroquois at Albany, New York, Governor Howard was given the Mohawk name Assarigoa (phonemic a?share?k?:wa 'great knife', now 'war chief'; cf. ?:share? 'knife'), which literally means 'big knife'. Apparently, this name arose from a misunderstanding through presumably Dutch interpreters, with the name Howard being misinterpreted as the Dutch word houwer, a knife or cutlass. Consequently, the entire line of governors of Virginia thereafter were known to the Iroquois as Assarigoa." "Evidently, the name spread widely from tribe to tribe. According to Woodward, the name was introduced in Shawnee, Delaware, and Ojibwe councils, in the process being extended from the Governor of Virginia, to the men of Virginia, to all English-speaking men of the American colonies, and, in some languages much later, all white men. By the late 1700's, there are numerous references to the term in written accounts." "According to Woodward, the metaphor 'big knife' is found in the languages of the other Five Nations Iroquois tribes, as well as Huron/Wyandot. To this day it is found in the Munsee dialect of Delaware, originally spoken in New Jersey and New York state, as (m)xwansh?:kan 'American', where (m)xw- = 'big' and -ansh?:kan = 'knife'." "The big knife metaphor almost certainly entered Ojibwe via Ottawa, an Ojibwe dialect spoken around Lake Huron. By the last quarter of the 17th century, the Ottawa were the dominant group mediating both trade with the French and inter-Indian trade from the Iroquois country around Lake Ontario, and were in a position to introduce both trade goods and new vocabulary westward into the upper Great Lakes. Once borrowed into Ojibwe proper, probably at the French trading posts around the Mackinac straits in upper Michigan, the term spread rapidly, as these tribes quickly came to need a name for this new type of European they had to deal with. Given that Ojibwe contributed the 'big knife' term to Fox and Menominee in Wisconsin, it is very likely that Ojibwe was also responsible for passing the word on to the Siouan languages west of the Great Lakes. In the Siouan languages in this area, this metaphor is found in at least four Siouan languages directly west and southwest of the Great Lakes, the Winnebago or Hochunk language, spoken in Wisconsin, Lakota, originally spoken in Minnesota, Iowa, south of this, and further west still, Omaha. These are seen in Table 5. In 1809, the explorer John Bradbury also noted the name in Osage, and observed that "the Americans are called the big knives by the Indians of the Missouri". In his article, Woodward also cites forms of the name found in the Siouan languages Assiniboine and Mandan. I am not certain how far this name spread into the Plains outside Algonquian and Siouan, but Woodward does claims that it is found in the Caddoan languge Arikara." [end quote] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc Wed Mar 10 21:40:58 2004 From: Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc (Louis Garcia) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:40:58 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man" Message-ID: Hi gang; I hate to bud in here because you guys talk linguistics like a wohdkawakan (sacred language). The adverage non-lingueistic educated guy can't tell what you are saying half the time. Here is my two cents: Wasicun (wa= noun marker, sicun = a live spirit) A live spirit is a sicun, a dead spirit is nagi. Hence wanagi is a ghost. Wasisun is someone who has or is wonderous (steel knifes, guns, traps, etc). Wasin icu =(he takes the wet slippery fat) doesn't fit because the 'c' in icu is exploded. So the two words are pronounced differently. You don't explode the 'c' in Wasicun. Now on to Big Knifes -Minahanska. David Costa send a wonderful explanination for the term. One must also remember that various tribes from many lingustic families participated in the French and Indian War, Revolutionary War, and the War of 1812. The Dakota helped the British in the last two events. I believe the term big Knife was distributed amomg many tribes when they were allied during the wars. later, Louie From rankin at ku.edu Wed Mar 10 21:56:22 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:56:22 -0600 Subject: big knives Message-ID: Re Dave's last few lines. This term is also found in Kansa and Osage -- in fact throughout Dhegiha except for Quapaw, where I found no trace of it. Thanks for the clarification! Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Costa" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 2:58 PM Subject: big knives > On a related topic, the term 'long knives' is also very common, and I used to > think it referred to US Cavalry sabres. I seem to recollect, though, that > Ives Goddard has researched this and found a much more specific explanation > for the term (Kansa maNhiN-ttaNga). I'll check into this and see what I can > find. The 'big knife' epithet for white men is all over the Algonquian languages of the Great Lakes and beyond. I actually wrote a paper on this long ago (but never published it). The crucial article that clarified a lot for me was the following: Woodward, Arthur. 1928. The "Long Knives". Indian Notes, Museum of the American Indian, Heye Foundation 5: 64-79. New York. Here's the relevant excerpt from my paper. I haven't looked at this paper for 6-7 years, so I make no statements about how much I agree with it now, but this provides the outline, at least, provided that Woodward's article is dependable. [if anyone's actually interested in seeing the Algonquian 'big knife' forms I have, let me know.] "At this point it is worth discussing where the 'big knife' term ultimately originated. In an article from 1928, Arthur Woodward persuasively makes a case that the 'big knife' metaphor has its origins in Iroquoian ritual speech. According to Woodward, 'Sall important men of another nation with whom [the Iroquois] came in contact were, for the sake of convenience and for the purpose of conferring a delicate honor upon them, each given an Iroquois name. If possible the name so conferred was a translation into one of the Iroquois dialects of the English or French name of the conferee.' (page 68) (end of Woodward's quote) "Thus, Woodward traces the origin of the big knife term to such a name bestowed on the governor of Virginia, Lord Howard of Effingham, in 1684. That year, when meeting with a confederation of the Iroquois at Albany, New York, Governor Howard was given the Mohawk name Assarigoa (phonemic a?share?k?:wa 'great knife', now 'war chief'; cf. ?:share? 'knife'), which literally means 'big knife'. Apparently, this name arose from a misunderstanding through presumably Dutch interpreters, with the name Howard being misinterpreted as the Dutch word houwer, a knife or cutlass. Consequently, the entire line of governors of Virginia thereafter were known to the Iroquois as Assarigoa." "Evidently, the name spread widely from tribe to tribe. According to Woodward, the name was introduced in Shawnee, Delaware, and Ojibwe councils, in the process being extended from the Governor of Virginia, to the men of Virginia, to all English-speaking men of the American colonies, and, in some languages much later, all white men. By the late 1700's, there are numerous references to the term in written accounts." "According to Woodward, the metaphor 'big knife' is found in the languages of the other Five Nations Iroquois tribes, as well as Huron/Wyandot. To this day it is found in the Munsee dialect of Delaware, originally spoken in New Jersey and New York state, as (m)xwansh?:kan 'American', where (m)xw- = 'big' and -ansh?:kan = 'knife'." "The big knife metaphor almost certainly entered Ojibwe via Ottawa, an Ojibwe dialect spoken around Lake Huron. By the last quarter of the 17th century, the Ottawa were the dominant group mediating both trade with the French and inter-Indian trade from the Iroquois country around Lake Ontario, and were in a position to introduce both trade goods and new vocabulary westward into the upper Great Lakes. Once borrowed into Ojibwe proper, probably at the French trading posts around the Mackinac straits in upper Michigan, the term spread rapidly, as these tribes quickly came to need a name for this new type of European they had to deal with. Given that Ojibwe contributed the 'big knife' term to Fox and Menominee in Wisconsin, it is very likely that Ojibwe was also responsible for passing the word on to the Siouan languages west of the Great Lakes. In the Siouan languages in this area, this metaphor is found in at least four Siouan languages directly west and southwest of the Great Lakes, the Winnebago or Hochunk language, spoken in Wisconsin, Lakota, originally spoken in Minnesota, Iowa, south of this, and further west still, Omaha. These are seen in Table 5. In 1809, the explorer John Bradbury also noted the name in Osage, and observed that "the Americans are called the big knives by the Indians of the Missouri". In his article, Woodward also cites forms of the name found in the Siouan languages Assiniboine and Mandan. I am not certain how far this name spread into the Plains outside Algonquian and Siouan, but Woodward does claims that it is found in the Caddoan languge Arikara." [end quote] From rankin at ku.edu Wed Mar 10 22:00:10 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:00:10 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man" Message-ID: Butt in any time. This is useful to know, since many don't write aspiration in Dakotan and guys like me, who study other subgroups, don't always have a way of knowing which stops are "exploded" and which are plain. I'm happy with the 'live spirit' explanation, and that seems to be what Powers was referring to also. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Garcia" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 3:40 PM Subject: Re: Terms for "white man" > Hi gang; > I hate to bud in here because you guys talk linguistics like a wohdkawakan > (sacred language). The adverage non-lingueistic educated guy can't tell what > you are saying half the time. > Here is my two cents: > Wasicun (wa= noun marker, sicun = a live spirit) > A live spirit is a sicun, a dead spirit is nagi. Hence wanagi is a ghost. > Wasisun is someone who has or is wonderous (steel knifes, guns, traps, etc). > Wasin icu =(he takes the wet slippery fat) doesn't fit because the 'c' in > icu is exploded. So the two words are pronounced differently. You don't > explode the 'c' in Wasicun. > Now on to Big Knifes -Minahanska. > David Costa send a wonderful explanination for the term. > One must also remember that various tribes from many lingustic families > participated in the French and Indian War, Revolutionary War, and the War of > 1812. The Dakota helped the British in the last two events. I believe the > term big Knife was distributed amomg many tribes when they were allied > during the wars. > later, > Louie > > > From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Mar 11 01:05:27 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:05:27 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man" Message-ID: >> I would agree with him and John that it is a biased folk etymology that >> post-dates the original meaning. Assuming that it is a jibe against >> whites for taking the Indians' land and resources, ... > > I'd qualify this by saying that I don't know that bias or prejudice is > really the issue here. Names are sometimes accidentally or even > deliberately offensive. The purpose of etymological analysis is to > determine meaning and perhaps to learn from it, not to rectify it, though > I don't meant to accuse Rory of suggesting the latter. In any event, I'm > not offended by fat-thief, which has a certain historical accuracy. I'm > merely unconvinced. > > [...] John's points are well taken. I shouldn't have assumed this etymology necessarily reflected bias, or that he supposed that it did. If the original construction became unclear to later generations, then was^iN'-ic^hu', "takes-the-fat", may just have seemed to be the only possible interpretation. Rory From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Mar 11 01:26:05 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:26:05 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man"? Message-ID: Thanks for your coins, Tom! I'm left wondering about that [x]. Isn't the [x] in wana'xe, "ghost" or "spirit", the softer, voiced type: wana'g^e rather than wana'h^e ? And isn't wa'xe pronounced with the unvoiced [x], wa'h^e ? I know these are confused in our usual orthography, but our Omaha speakers still seem able to distinguish them. I'd certainly like to believe this interpretation, though. It would sure fit nicely with the Dakotan was^i'c^uN "ghost" etymology. Rory "Tom Leonard" t> cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: Terms for "white man"? owner-siouan at lists.c olorado.edu 03/09/2004 11:26 PM Please respond to siouan Thought I'd add my 2 cents on this one........ My dad, Joe Rush (Ponca), told me on many, many, occasions that "wa'xe" was an "abbreviation" of wana'xe (ghost or spirit). I've heard the same from many other Ponca elders. He said when Poncas first saw a white man they thought he was a ghost because of his pale color. I've noted some Omaha names that lend credence to this "abbreviation" (if you will).....Ma'chu Wa'xe...translated as "ghost bear". Might be folk etymology.....don't know.....but it seems consistent across the board with Ponca elders and some of the Omaha names that I've seen translated. For what it's worth, TML From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Mar 11 02:41:37 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:41:37 -0600 Subject: was^icuN Message-ID: Bob, I think your proposed etymology is way too fascinating to discard this easily. You have: * wa- s^ikE ?uN one-who evil practices ==> was^i'c^uN in Dakotan. Granted that the term was^i'c^uN is probably based directly on s^ic^uN', which Louie defines as a "live spirit" and John as "the immortal component of the soul", doesn't it seem likely that s^ic^uN' itself is originally a compound of *s^ikE + *?uN as you suggested? I'd be doubtful that a term presently glossed as 'evil' always had that meaning. In this case, I would guess that *s^ikE originally meant something like present day wakhaN' or xube', sacred, holy, mysterious. It would have been practiced by shamans, *s^ikE-?uN => s^ic^uN. Shamans doing their mysterious things, perhaps wearing masks so they wouldn't be personally recognized by the uninitiated, could be regarded as "live spirits", and possibly as returned ancestors, which could lead to the philosophical conception that the soul has the s^ic^uN' as its immortal component. But the practice of *s^ikE could take on a sinister hue if it were done selfishly. In this case, it would be what the Old Norse called seidhr, or witchcraft, magical knowledge and power that could be used to hurt one's enemies. Then the concept of *s^ikE would take on the sense of supernatural malevolence and mortal danger, perhaps during a period of witch lynching. When no one was left who dared to practise *s^ikE, the term would extend to cover evil generically, and shamans would devote themselves more righteously to being wakhaN' or xube' instead. Rory "R. Rankin" To: Sent by: cc: owner-siouan at lists.c Subject: Re: was^icuN olorado.edu 03/10/2004 01:48 PM Please respond to siouan I haven't really looked into the possible etymology of the Dakotan term, but I guess my own linguist's folk etymology of the term was simply 'evil-doer'. I made this up without access to the information that there is a religious term that might serve as a source. I read the item on John's web site and pretty much agree with it. But that first impression of mine was based on the fact that the root *s^ik-E means 'bad' all across Siouan, although it is more prominent in some languages than others. It undergoes the fricative symbolism series and is found in various languages as s^ik- and xik- (I don't know about *sik-). And although apparently some Dakotan lexicographers translate ?uN as 'wear' in this context (the "they wear bad clothes" analysis), the real pan-Siouan verb for 'wear' is *?iN, not ?uN. *?uN is more specifically 'be, do' and it is found all over. I have discussed the distinction between 'do/be' and 'use' (to do with) on this list before and will not recapitulate that discussion here. But *?u:N clearly had the common Siouan meaning 'be', or, more likely 'do'. This verb is also pressed into service as an auxiliary of verbal aspect in a number of languages -- nearly always with some 'past' meaning, most often 'imperfective'. I mention it in my Quapaw sketch. The K-palatalization rule in Dakotan would give s^ic^- 'bad' in that language, and, compounded with ?uN 'do', would mean 'do evil'. Wa- nominalizes it to 'evil-doer'. And, bingo, a ready made (folk?) etymology. And if it is a relatively old term for evil-doers of various sorts, the constituent morphemes might well retain their etymological meanings whether or not they retain those meanings standing alone as s^ic^A and ?uN respectively. On a related topic, the term 'long knives' is also very common, and I used to think it referred to US Cavalry sabres. I seem to recollect, though, that Ives Goddard has researched this and found a much more specific explanation for the term (Kansa maNhiN-ttaNga). I'll check into this and see what I can find. The term "Little Worker" found, I think, in Hochank, wasn't it?, is interesting. I wonder how widespread it is. It is particularly interesting to me because the way you say Little Worker in Delaware is "Tonganoxie", the name of the town nearest to my home here in Kansas. I live on the former Delaware reservation in NE KS. Bob From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Mar 11 08:01:08 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:01:08 +0000 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/3/04 5:45 pm, "Rory M Larson" wrote: > > > > > Alfred wrote: >> One very often reads of wasicun <- wa-sicun [wa-s^i'c^uN] <- sicun (i.e. >> in the sense given by Riggs). >> Yet, in today's Native literature, there's commonly(?) referred to a >> different etymology: >> was^iN' (fat not dried out, fat meat; pork) + >> ic^u' (to take, take up anything; accept, receive) -> 'fat-taker' >> (stealer of fat). >> >> What do you think about it? Is it (maybe biased) 'folk etymology'? >> (phonologically, this derivation doesn't seem to fit too well.) > > I heard this explanation too, in the Lakhota class I took about > ten years ago. The instructor didn't seem to take it too > seriously. I would agree with him and John that it is a biased > folk etymology that post-dates the original meaning. Assuming > that it is a jibe against whites for taking the Indians' land and > resources, that complaint wouldn't have had any particular salience > from the Dakotan point of view until well into the 19th century. > They would have been aware of whites as mysterious foreign beings > with remarkable equipment that they might obtain through trade > all through the 18th century if not earlier. I think it's most > likely that the term was established from the time that they > first became aware of the existence of whites, I suppose late in > the 17th century. > > Perhaps the Dakotanists could comment on this. > > Rory > > > I agree that the idea that white people, although obviously not spirits, may with their pale appearance have resembled them is probably the origin. Note that the Chinese (or was it the Japanese) used to refer to us as 'foreign devils' or so one reads. Also in Persia we were called cheshm zagh meaning 'blue/grey eyed' which alluded to the Jinn (Genies), who were also blue-grey eyed. Bruce From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Mar 11 08:04:22 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:04:22 +0000 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/3/04 7:33 pm, "Koontz John E" wrote: > On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: >> I would agree with him and John that it is a biased folk etymology that >> post-dates the original meaning. Assuming that it is a jibe against >> whites for taking the Indians' land and resources, ... > > when this has not > occurred, a certain disconnect between the analysis and the material > actually occurring, e.g., the problems with s^ahiyela as 'red-speaker' vs. > its exact fit with 'little s^ahiya'. Could S^ahiya not also be 'red speaker' (meaning possibly non-Siouan) or is there another known origin for it. Bruce > > > > From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Thu Mar 11 08:19:49 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:19:49 +0100 Subject: was^i'c^uN Message-ID: BTW, got somewhat puzzled so I checked the sources (Buechel and CULP) for _icu_ and both give the verb as [ic^u'] i.e. with c unaspirated. >I'd be doubtful that a term presently glossed as 'evil' always had that meaning. In this case, I would guess that *s^ikE originally meant something like present day wakhaN' or xube', sacred, holy, mysterious. It would have been practiced by shamans, *s^ikE-?uN => s^ic^uN. Shamans doing their mysterious things, perhaps wearing masks so they wouldn't be personally recognized by the uninitiated, could be regarded as "live spirits", and possibly as returned ancestors, which could lead to the philosophical conception that the soul has the s^ic^uN' as its immortal component. But the practice of *s^ikE could take on a sinister hue if it were done selfishly. In this case, it would be what the Old Norse called seidhr, or witchcraft, magical knowledge and power that could be used to hurt one's enemies. Then the concept of *s^ikE would take on the sense of supernatural malevolence and mortal danger, perhaps during a period of witch lynching. When no one was left who dared to practise *s^ikE, the term would extend to cover evil generically, and shamans would devote themselves more righteously to being wakhaN' or xube' instead. Rory<< I somehow like this idea - the more so as it was mine too ;-) Also cf. "Wasicun: Not a divinity in and of itself, and not precisely an animate spirit, wasicun is nevertheless an important concept. In general, it refers to anything hidden or mysterious, or the container that such a thing is held in. It often refers to the medicine bag borne by the Shaman, containing objects imbued with great power that he uses in his work. Such objects, together with the bag they are within, are thought to take on an independent existence in their own right, and thus must be carefully dealt with. The term can be applied to any of a wide variety of foci of mystery and power; one such application was to people of European descent when the Lakota first came in contact with them..." http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/pla/sdo/sdo54.htm http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/pla/sdo/sdo49.htm Alfred From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Mar 11 12:10:17 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 12:10:17 +0000 Subject: Active & stative verbs in biclausal sentences. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all A friend of mine is writing a book on contacts between Scotland and the American Indians. He located a letter from the Yorkshire Evening Post dated 2001 I think in which there is a facsimile of a letter from a Lakota with the Buffalo Bill Outfit to his father in America. It is in the old copper plate cursive type handwriting and I am not always clear on the actual letters but seems to be like this, with his lines and spaces, with dubious items in brackets. He uses dots over s (and n) etc which I here mark with ^: Ito ate le anpetu kin wowape cicu kte lo na (eya) mis^ taku na ota-aciciya un^ kte s^ni tka itoptelye la wocici ya kin kte lo (letuya) waon tka taku s^ica wa ons^niyelo lila tanyan waon welo iho hecetu we lo I take this to be Ito ate le anpetu kin wowapi cic'u kte lo na (eya) mis^ takuna ota aciciya uN kte s^ni tka itoptelyela wociciyakin kte lo. Letuya wauN tka taku s^ica wauN s^ni yelo. Lila taNyaN wauN welo. Iho hecetu welo. Does anyone have any comments. I wish I could send it as a photocopy. The sentence that floors me is takuna ota aciciya uN kte s^ni tka, also the use of itoptelyela which I suppose is an alternative to optoptelya meaning 'for a while' Any ideas Bruce From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Thu Mar 11 19:17:41 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 20:17:41 +0100 Subject: was^i'c^uN Message-ID: >I agree that the idea that white people, although obviously not spirits, may with their pale appearance have resembled them is probably the origin. Note that the Chinese (or was it the Japanese) used to refer to us as 'foreign devils' or so one reads. Also in Persia we were called cheshm zagh meaning 'blue/grey eyed' which alluded to the Jinn (Genies), who were also blue-grey eyed. Bruce<< In Chinese, there are still these derogatory (however historical) terms for foreigners (western people): gui3zi5 (devil) fan1gui3 (foreign devil) yang2gui3(zi5) (foreign/oversea devil) hong2mao2 (lit. 'redhair') In reference to the colour of eyes, there is: bi4yan3hu2 (green-eyed foreigner) with _hu2_ also meaning 'recklessly/irrelevantly', 'foreign' (hu2shuo1 - hu-speech -> nonsense), also a proper name, referring to the Hu(ren) - non-Han peoples in the northwest of China. As for _wasicun_, cf. the Meso- and South American Native cultures' attitude toward the white man. Alfred From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Mar 12 01:38:14 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 18:38:14 -0700 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Bruce Ingham wrote: > Could S^ahiya not also be 'red speaker' (meaning possibly non-Siouan) or is > there another known origin for it. I believe the h is extra if the form is s^a + iye. The syntax is also different from iyeska, for example, though perhaps either order would be acceptable. It makes more sense to me to see s^ahi'ya as s^ahi' + (y)a, where -(y)a is the "independent stem" forming suffix (absolute marker) that occurs in some Dakotan stems ending in high vowels, e.g., heya, wiNyaN, maxpiya, and so on. The same formant occurs with such stems in some cases before some of the short or enclitic postpositions, like -ta (e.g., with thiyata). The s^ahi' form for 'Cree' is also pretty well attested in various other languages, though not, apparently, in Santee or Teton. This -ya is -ye in e-grade contexts so when =la follows you get s^ahi'yela, cf. sa'pa, sa'pela, and so on. From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Fri Mar 12 03:03:01 2004 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 21:03:01 -0600 Subject: Siouan & Caddoan Languages Conference update Message-ID: Just a quick update on the conference, while I'm on spring break and have time to think! I assume you've already got your calendars marked! **Conference Dates: June 11-13 (we'll probably have a little get-together on the 10th, so do come early!) **Title due date: May 1 An abstract along with your title would be great. Below is a little more detail on practical matters like housing and how to get to Wayne. This should be up on the SSILA website soon (Thanks, Ardis!). Please feel free to post this information (and/or general call for papers and pointer to the website) to other lists, newsletters, etc. Has anyone seen an announcement on the Linguist List? I sent one in a while back, but never saw it -- may have deleted it by mistake among the daily flood of spam??? Best, Catherine ----------------------------------------------- 24th Annual Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference LOCATION: Wayne State College, Wayne, NE. Wayne is located in the Northeast corner of Nebraska, 40 miles west of Sioux City Iowa and about 100 miles north of both Omaha and Lincoln, at the intersection of highways 35 and 15. There is no public transportation to Wayne, so the easiest way to get here is by car. Nearest airports: Sioux City or Omaha. If you are flying in, let us know your flight information and we'll try to organize airport pickups or rental-car sharing. Wayne State College is located at the north end of town. Take Main St. (=highway 35) north through town; the campus is between 10th and 12th St, on the east side of Main St. Conference sessions will be in the Student Center. It's a small town and a small campus -- just ask anyone for directions. LODGING: Two blocks of rooms have been reserved: (1) Super 8 Motel (402-375-4898) $42/single, $45 double. Mention group confirmation number G-00007-66; call by May 27 to get group rate. Located about 8 blocks from the conference site, at 610 Tomar Dr. (2) Dormitory accomodations on the WSC Campus $21.50/single, $14.25 per person/double Conveniently next door to the conference site .. but problably not airconditioned, and definitely not luxurious. Limited number of rooms. Please make reservations EARLY! Contact Derek Anderson, housing supervisor at 402-375-7322, or the conference organizer. There are two other motels in Wayne: K-D Inn Motel 402-375-1770 Sports Club Motel 402-375-4222 ABSTRACT/TITLE DEADLINE: May 1 If you wish to be on the program, send the title of your proposed paper or presentation and any special requests (e.g. for equipment or for a longer time slot than 30 minutes) by May 1. A brief abstract or description of your topic would be appreciated. REGISTRATION Registration is free and drop-ins are welcome. However, we would appreciate being informed if you plan to attend the conference, even if you are not presenting a paper, to know how many people to expect. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sat Mar 13 21:09:32 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 15:09:32 -0600 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms Message-ID: Does anyone know the origin of the name Tywappety (Bottoms), given a town on the Mississippi in SE Missouri in 1797? When the village was founded c1790, it was called Ze-wa-pe-ta, which looks quite a bit more Siouan. It was apparently (the Web link is now dead) shown on an 1824 map as Tywapatia. Thanks for any hints, Alan From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Mar 14 14:49:05 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 09:49:05 -0500 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms In-Reply-To: <4053788C.4010405@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Alan, Just a couple of observations. Given the date that "Ze-wa-pe-ta" was transcribed, it is most likely a word written down by an English speaker. Therefore, the final -a of "Za-wa-pe-ta" is probably /i/. As you probably know, English speakers commonly heard native /i/ as /e/ and then wrote the latter vowel as an a in keeping with the pronunciation of the first letter of the alphabet. This would be why "Tywappety" has a y at the end. In other words, there *is* a neat correspondence between, at least, the end of those two words. In this connection, the penultimate -e- in both terms is probably /i/, reflecting the pronunciation of E is in the English alphabet. So, the last three syllables of this place name are probably /-wa(a)pi(i)ti(i)/. The discrepancy between the initial T- of "Tywappety" and the initial Z- of "Ze-wa-pe-ta" is bizarre and suggests a scribal error. Michael On Sat, 13 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > Does anyone know the origin of the name Tywappety (Bottoms), given a > town on the Mississippi in SE Missouri in 1797? When the village was > founded c1790, it was called Ze-wa-pe-ta, which looks quite a bit more > Siouan. It was apparently (the Web link is now dead) shown on an 1824 > map as Tywapatia. > > Thanks for any hints, > > Alan > > > From napshawin at msn.com Sun Mar 14 15:14:55 2004 From: napshawin at msn.com (CATCHES VIOLET) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 09:14:55 -0600 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms Message-ID: I am curious about this one. Is there any yellowish ground around it? Zee-Owapi-Ekta, any Siouan languages have this habit of short cutting, oops, maybe I should use linguistic terminology...but anyway, it looks like ziwapita, there at that place where the yellow paint can be found. UNSHIKICHILA PI! napsha miye "We come to this world with nothing, we leave with nothing, live your life in a manner that shows compassion, mercy and love...wa-unshila pi!" an ancient Lakxota grandmother >From: Michael Mccafferty >Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >To: Siouan >Subject: Re: Tywappity Bottoms >Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 09:49:05 -0500 (EST) > >Alan, >Just a couple of observations. > >Given the date that "Ze-wa-pe-ta" was transcribed, it is most likely a >word written down by an English speaker. Therefore, the final -a of >"Za-wa-pe-ta" is probably /i/. As you probably know, English speakers >commonly heard native /i/ as /e/ and then wrote the latter vowel as an a >in keeping with the pronunciation of the first letter of the alphabet. >This would be why "Tywappety" has a y at the end. In other words, there >*is* a neat correspondence between, at least, the end of those two words. > >In this connection, the penultimate -e- in both terms is probably /i/, >reflecting the pronunciation of E is in the English alphabet. >So, the last three syllables of this place name are probably >/-wa(a)pi(i)ti(i)/. > >The discrepancy between the initial T- of "Tywappety" and the initial Z- >of "Ze-wa-pe-ta" is bizarre and suggests a scribal error. > >Michael > >On Sat, 13 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > > > Does anyone know the origin of the name Tywappety (Bottoms), given a > > town on the Mississippi in SE Missouri in 1797? When the village was > > founded c1790, it was called Ze-wa-pe-ta, which looks quite a bit more > > Siouan. It was apparently (the Web link is now dead) shown on an 1824 > > map as Tywapatia. > > > > Thanks for any hints, > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Create a Job Alert on MSN Careers and enter for a chance to win $1000! http://msn.careerbuilder.com/promo/kaday.htm?siteid=CBMSN_1K&sc_extcmp=JS_JASweep_MSNHotm2 From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Mar 14 15:26:37 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 09:26:37 -0600 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Michael. > Given the date that "Ze-wa-pe-ta" was transcribed, it is most likely a > word written down by an English speaker. Therefore, the final -a of > "Za-wa-pe-ta" is probably /i/. As you probably know, English speakers > commonly heard native /i/ as /e/ and then wrote the latter vowel as an a > in keeping with the pronunciation of the first letter of the alphabet. > This would be why "Tywappety" has a y at the end. In other words, there > *is* a neat correspondence between, at least, the end of those two words. > > In this connection, the penultimate -e- in both terms is probably /i/, > reflecting the pronunciation of E is in the English alphabet. > So, the last three syllables of this place name are probably > /-wa(a)pi(i)ti(i)/. Which suggests the Algonquian 'white-rump' word for 'elk'. Shawnee wa:piti, would be a good candidate, given their occupation of SE Missouri at about the time Tywappity Bottoms was settled by Euro-Americans. But, about the first syllable... Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Mar 14 15:55:39 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 09:55:39 -0600 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I am curious about this one. Is there any yellowish ground around it? > Zee-Owapi-Ekta, any Siouan languages have this habit of short cutting, > oops, maybe I should use linguistic terminology...but anyway, it looks > like ziwapita, there at that place where the yellow paint can be found. Good suggestion, Violet. I noticed Sioux zi- 'yellow' but didn't think about ocher. I don't have a clue whether there's any in that area. Does anyone know if there's a Dhegiha 'yellow' word that fits? Or where central Mississippi valley ocher came from? Incidentally, Riggs gives mak?saN 'whitish or yellowish clay' (maka 'earth' + saN 'whitish or yellowish'), mak?to 'blue earth' (whence the name of Mankato MN), and mak?wase 'red earth used as paint'. As in many Indian languages, the word for red clay as paint (was? in Sioux) came to be applied also to the traders' imported pigment, vermilion. Thanks, Alan From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Mar 14 15:54:46 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 10:54:46 -0500 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms In-Reply-To: <405479AD.8050502@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: I'm concerned that we're getting somewhat far afield in the analysis of this name, but let me just add something that seems somewhat relevant. The Miami-Illinois initial /oonsaa-/ 'yellow' was originally recorded by the French without the first syllable in the name for a stream in Indiana. In other words, the native name for the stream is /oonsaalamooni/ but the first known recording of this hydronym by the French, from the mid-1700s, is < Salamani >. As you can see the /oon-/ was left off. This is not expected. I should add that would not be Miami-Illinois, however, since "wapiti" is not the term in that language for 'elk'. In Miami-Illinois word for 'elk' is /mih$iiweewa/ (older form) and /mih$iiwia/ (later form). Perhaps your place name, Alan, is Algonquian, though, and represents another instance where an European recorder lopped off the front end of "yellow". Michael On Sun, 14 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > Thanks, Michael. > > > Given the date that "Ze-wa-pe-ta" was transcribed, it is most likely a > > word written down by an English speaker. Therefore, the final -a of > > "Za-wa-pe-ta" is probably /i/. As you probably know, English speakers > > commonly heard native /i/ as /e/ and then wrote the latter vowel as an a > > in keeping with the pronunciation of the first letter of the alphabet. > > This would be why "Tywappety" has a y at the end. In other words, there > > *is* a neat correspondence between, at least, the end of those two words. > > > > In this connection, the penultimate -e- in both terms is probably /i/, > > reflecting the pronunciation of E is in the English alphabet. > > So, the last three syllables of this place name are probably > > /-wa(a)pi(i)ti(i)/. > > Which suggests the Algonquian 'white-rump' word for 'elk'. Shawnee > wa:piti, would be a good candidate, given their occupation of SE > Missouri at about the time Tywappity Bottoms was settled by > Euro-Americans. But, about the first syllable... > > Alan > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Mar 14 16:08:58 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 11:08:58 -0500 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms In-Reply-To: <405479AD.8050502@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: I guess I should've added the translation for /oonsaalamooni/, the stream known today as the Salamonie. Maybe I didn't, because it's a little tricky. The term literally means 'yellow ocher'. Also known in English as limonite, yellow ocher is a mixture of hydrated iron oxide minerals, FeO(OH).nH20, that occurs near oxidized iron deposits, or other ore deposits, as well as in sedimentary beds. Aboriginally, yellow ocher was ground into a powder and used as a source of yellow paint. Linguistically speaking, the term is composed of, as noted, the initial /oonsaa-/ 'yellow, brown' and the independent noun /alamooni/, which by itself is the Miami-Illinois term for the mineral hematite, Fe2O3, otherwise known as red ocher and commonly glossed "vermillion" in the historical French sources. The historical record, however, does not show 'yellow ocher' as an English translation for recordings of Miami-Illinois /oonsaalamooni/. This native language term was not recorded, however, until quite late and by the time it was written down, it was apparently used only as the name for bloodroot (Sanguinaria canadensis), the rhizomes of which were an important botanical source of a red juice producing a yellowish stain that was also used by local native peoples as paint. Ives Goddard's discussion of yellow ocher suggests, at least to me, that Miami-Illinois /oosaalamooni/ as the name for the bloodroot plant might be a secondary attribution based on this plants' capacity to produce a yellowish paint that resembled the paint originally made from yellow ocher. (Goddard's discussion is in Ives Goddard, "Contractions in Fox (Meskwaki)," Proceedings of the 32nd Algonquian Conference, 222-223.) Michael On Sun, 14 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > Thanks, Michael. > > > Given the date that "Ze-wa-pe-ta" was transcribed, it is most likely a > > word written down by an English speaker. Therefore, the final -a of > > "Za-wa-pe-ta" is probably /i/. As you probably know, English speakers > > commonly heard native /i/ as /e/ and then wrote the latter vowel as an a > > in keeping with the pronunciation of the first letter of the alphabet. > > This would be why "Tywappety" has a y at the end. In other words, there > > *is* a neat correspondence between, at least, the end of those two words. > > > > In this connection, the penultimate -e- in both terms is probably /i/, > > reflecting the pronunciation of E is in the English alphabet. > > So, the last three syllables of this place name are probably > > /-wa(a)pi(i)ti(i)/. > > Which suggests the Algonquian 'white-rump' word for 'elk'. Shawnee > wa:piti, would be a good candidate, given their occupation of SE > Missouri at about the time Tywappity Bottoms was settled by > Euro-Americans. But, about the first syllable... > > Alan > > > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sun Mar 14 16:11:39 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:11:39 -0800 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms Message-ID: > I should add that would not be Miami-Illinois, > however, since "wapiti" is not the term in that language for 'elk'. In > Miami-Illinois word for 'elk' is /mih$iiweewa/ (older form) and > /mih$iiwia/ (later form). Tho it *is* the Miami-Illinois term for the pronghorn antelope. Two variants are attested: /waapitia/ and /waapitiaata/. But the first syllable is STILL a problem. Dave C From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Mar 14 16:21:31 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 11:21:31 -0500 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, I'm sorry, Dave. I see what you mean about the first syllable problem--the Ty-/Ze affair. Michael On Sun, 14 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > > > I should add that would not be Miami-Illinois, > > however, since "wapiti" is not the term in that language for 'elk'. In > > Miami-Illinois word for 'elk' is /mih$iiweewa/ (older form) and > > /mih$iiwia/ (later form). > > Tho it *is* the Miami-Illinois term for the pronghorn antelope. Two variants > are attested: /waapitia/ and /waapitiaata/. > > But the first syllable is STILL a problem. > > Dave C > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Mar 14 16:18:52 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 11:18:52 -0500 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > > > I should add that would not be Miami-Illinois, > > however, since "wapiti" is not the term in that language for 'elk'. In > > Miami-Illinois word for 'elk' is /mih$iiweewa/ (older form) and > > /mih$iiwia/ (later form). > > Tho it *is* the Miami-Illinois term for the pronghorn antelope. Two variants > are attested: /waapitia/ and /waapitiaata/. :-) !! But I wonder how old the term for pronghorn antelope is. Do we have it for the 18th-century French sources, or did it come into the language in these people's transmississippian times. > > But the first syllable is STILL a problem. > Yeah, but as noted, there is good evidence for the loss of the initial syllable of 'yellow'. Michael > Dave C > > > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sun Mar 14 16:28:11 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:28:11 -0800 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms Message-ID: So far I only have it in Gatschet's and Dunn's notes from the late 1800's. Miami-Illinois speakers might not have known about the animal until they went to Kansas and Oklahoma. Dave >> Tho it *is* the Miami-Illinois term for the pronghorn antelope. Two variants >> are attested: /waapitia/ and /waapitiaata/. > :-) !! > But I wonder how old the term for pronghorn antelope is. Do we have it for the > 18th-century French sources, or did it come into the language in these > people's transmississippian times. From rankin at ku.edu Sun Mar 14 16:43:06 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 10:43:06 -0600 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms Message-ID: > > I am curious about this one. Is there any yellowish ground around it? > > Zee-Owapi-Ekta, any Siouan languages have this habit of short cutting, > > oops, maybe I should use linguistic terminology...but anyway, it looks > > like ziwapita, there at that place where the yellow paint can be found. > > Good suggestion, Violet. I noticed Sioux zi- 'yellow' but didn't think > about ocher. I don't have a clue whether there's any in that area. Does > anyone know if there's a Dhegiha 'yellow' word that fits? Or where > central Mississippi valley ocher came from? The same ZI is 'yellow' in every Mississippi Valley Siouan language except Ioway-Otoe-Missouria where it's DHI. Ocher isn't something I know much about, at least right now. Sometimes CV color terms have the -hV augment, where the V is a copy of the first V in the word, but the root is without the augment. tto ttoho 'grue' zi zihi 'yellow' saN saNhaN 'off-white' Bob From rankin at ku.edu Sun Mar 14 16:51:40 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 10:51:40 -0600 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms Message-ID: > I see what you mean about the first syllable problem--the Ty-/Ze affair. Don't forget that for speakers of more Southern English the letter "y" could be used for the low-central vowel /a/, since "y" isn't a diphthong, but rather [a:] in those areas, e.g., "fire" is pronounced [fa:r]. Then there's the possibility that someone knew a little German or other European language where "z" was pronounced [ts]. Bob From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Mar 14 17:28:37 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 11:28:37 -0600 Subject: Tywappity Bottoms In-Reply-To: <006301c409e4$b2e1ea40$08b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: > Don't forget that for speakers of more Southern English the letter "y" could be > used for the low-central vowel /a/, since "y" isn't a diphthong, but rather [a:] > in those areas, e.g., "fire" is pronounced [fa:r]. My work on Lewis and Clark shows no signs of [ai] > [a] in the journals (1803-06). Evidence for the "Southern Shift" (that also produced changes like [ei] > [ai]) really starts to show up only late in the 19c. (It's surprising that the phonetic feature that best defines the modern Southern dialect-area is of such recent development.) Alan From rankin at ku.edu Sun Mar 14 20:29:48 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 14:29:48 -0600 Subject: term for whiteman, evil, etc. Message-ID: The Dakotan verb $i'ca 'bad' has the following cognates in the other languages: Hidatsa i$ihe 'spoil sthg, caus.' Lakota $i'ca 'bad' Chiwere sik ~ $ik 'incredible' (interject.) Otoe irosi'ge 'ashamed' Winneb. $iik$i'k 'bad, spoiled of food' Dheg. $i:ke 'bad, evil, injury' Ofo ci:fhahi 'dangerous' Tutelo isi: ~ $ik 'evil' (in word for 'devil') The X grade of fricative symbolism is found in: Mandan xik- 'bad' Biloxi xiya' 'bad, cunning' I've used $ for S-hacek and c for C-hacek here. : is V length and ' is accent. So semantically it looks as if the reconstructible meaning is close to the current meaning in the various languages. 'Bad' and 'spoiled' are the main features that are repeated. I'm still not taking a position on the Dakotan term for Whites though. Bob From FurbeeL at missouri.edu Mon Mar 15 19:45:21 2004 From: FurbeeL at missouri.edu (Louanna Furbee) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 13:45:21 -0600 Subject: Job posting. In-Reply-To: <005b01c3daed$205f0bb0$34430945@JIMM> Message-ID: >Back from Chiapas. Retired from teaching, but not from the >profession. Louanna >She's in Chiapas for 3 months. Otherwise, she's retired. > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: +ACI-R. Rankin+ACI- +ADw-rankin+AEA-ku.edu+AD4- >To: +ADw-siouan+AEA-lists.colorado.edu+AD4- >Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 3:10 PM >Subject: Job posting. > > >+AD4- I note in the Anthropological Newsletter that the University >of Missouri, >+AD4- Columbia is advertising a full-time, tenure track position in >anthropological >+AD4- linguistics with a specialty in historical linguistics and >related areas. >This >+AD4- would seem to be tailor-made for some of the participants on this list. >+AD4- >+AD4- Is Louanna retiring? >+AD4- >+AD4- Bob -- Prof. N. Louanna Furbee Department of Anthropology 107 Swallow Hall University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65211 USA Telephones: 573/882-9408 (office) 573/882-4731 (department) 573/446-0932 (home) 573/884-5450 (fax) E-mail: FurbeeL at missouri.edu From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 16 07:26:18 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 00:26:18 -0700 Subject: term for whiteman, evil, etc. In-Reply-To: <001f01c40a03$2b33c810$0ab5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: >>From Nasatir, A.P. 1990. Before Lewis and Clark: Documents Illustrating the History of the Missouri, 1785-1804, ... I.296 This is from a series of observations by Jean Baptiste Trudeau or Truteau, a fur trader, some of which seem to be extremely valuable, and others perhaps a little bizarre, illustrative of the difference in the moral outlook of a fur trader and a modern reader, if nothing else. However, of interest in the context: "... the Indians of this country [the lower and middle reaches of the Missouri] do not know any distinction between the French, Spanish, English, etc., calling them all indifferently White Men or Spirits." Unfortunately he doesn't specify the terms, but his assertion is consistent with the probable etymologies of various of the terms we've been seeing, at last as far as "Spirit" is concerned. He goes on to say, "It is said that formerly the Ricara nation held us in such great veneration that they gave us a sort of worship, having certain festivals at which they offered us the choicest morsels, and even threw into the river robes which had been dyed and dressed skins decorated with feathers as a sacrifice to the White Man.* "I have been assured that the Cheyennes and other more distant nations still practice this custom; while the Ricaras, through having for so many years associated with the Sioux and Panis Mahas have changed the ideas which they have inherited from their ancestors in regard to the White Man whom they regarded as divinities. Now they consider us only in so far as we supply them with the merchandise which we bring, and which is so necessary to them ..." *Marginal notation: "Several old people of this tribe have told me this as a fact." This was in 1795. I don't know if there are any other references to this "cargo cult" phase in relations, and I'd have to say that it's only exposure to non-technical descriptions of the later "cargo cult" in the South Pacific that makes story more or less credible to me. Truteau seems to rather regret the passing of this phase, which it seems he never encountered directly. He does devote a great deal of space to reporting the past and present amenability of the various groups he met to the bargaining paradigm and their gullibility in terms of it, their propensity to arbitrary pricing, their inclination to manipulate upstream trade, etc. "Gentle" groups understood bargaining and settled for exchange rates that made the trade profitable. Others did not and might progress to expropriation or personal violence if denied a particular price, or if refused a trade for personal goods that were not for sale. Of course, trade existed before the fur trade in pre-contact times, and is attested archaeologically, but the details were possibly different, and the rules and rates of exchange clear to both sides. In any event there are definitely references in the literature on the Missouri fur trade to attempts by various groups, the Kansas, Omahas, Arikaras and Dakotas being particularly notorious at various points, to control trading with upriver or competing groups. The trade was a serious matter for both sides, with both sides having a certain desperation for what the other could offer, and exploring all possible ways of manipulating the mysterious others into cooperating. Perhaps there was a phase in which Europeans were regarded as spirits whose benificence could be manipulated by spiritual paradigms, and the nomenclature of this period leaves traces, even though other, more effective paradigms were adopted subsequently. And also, one might speculate, as some of the disadvantages of the incursion of Europeans became more appallingly obvious. From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Tue Mar 16 12:45:04 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 12:45:04 +0000 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/3/04 1:38 am, "Koontz John E" wrote: > On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Bruce Ingham wrote: >> Could S^ahiya not also be 'red speaker' (meaning possibly non-Siouan) or is >> there another known origin for it. > > I believe the h is extra if the form is s^a + iye. The syntax is also > different from iyeska, for example, though perhaps either order would be > acceptable. It makes more sense to me to see s^ahi'ya as s^ahi' + (y)a, > where -(y)a is the "independent stem" forming suffix (absolute marker) > that occurs in some Dakotan stems ending in high vowels, e.g., heya, > wiNyaN, maxpiya, and so on. The same formant occurs with such stems in > some cases before some of the short or enclitic postpositions, like -ta > (e.g., with thiyata). The s^ahi' form for 'Cree' is also pretty well > attested in various other languages, though not, apparently, in Santee or > Teton. This -ya is -ye in e-grade contexts so when =la follows you get > s^ahi'yela, cf. sa'pa, sa'pela, and so on. > > Does it however still refer to 'speaking red' or is it unanalyzable? Bruce From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 16 16:49:09 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 09:49:09 -0700 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Mar 2004, Bruce Ingham wrote: > Does it however still refer to 'speaking red' or is it unanalyzable? Historically s^ahi'yela 'Cheyenne' seems to be 'little Cree', i.e., s^ahi'ya (not current in Santee or Teton as far as I know) referred to the Cree. I suppose one would have to call the longer form unanalyzable in terms of modern Dakotan. From mary.marino at usask.ca Tue Mar 16 18:13:53 2004 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Mary Marino) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 12:13:53 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: S^ahiya is current among Canadian Dakota speakers for 'Cree'. I've never recorded S^ahiyena. Mary At 09:49 AM 3/16/2004 -0700, you wrote: >On Tue, 16 Mar 2004, Bruce Ingham wrote: > > Does it however still refer to 'speaking red' or is it unanalyzable? > >Historically s^ahi'yela 'Cheyenne' seems to be 'little Cree', i.e., >s^ahi'ya (not current in Santee or Teton as far as I know) referred to the >Cree. I suppose one would have to call the longer form unanalyzable in >terms of modern Dakotan. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Mar 16 18:57:25 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 19:57:25 +0100 Subject: Terms for "white man" Message-ID: >John: Historically s^ahi'yela 'Cheyenne' seems to be 'little Cree', i.e., s^ahi'ya (not current in Santee or Teton as far as I know) referred to the Cree. I suppose one would have to call the longer form unanalyzable in terms of modern Dakotan.<< These terms' meaning seem to be a bit vague, as Buechel only gives _S^ahi'yela_ (without question mark!), as "The Cheyenne Indians", whereas _S^ahi'ya_ somewhat fuzzy as "a tribe of western Indians". He also has the term "Rabbit Men" mastincala wicasa [Mas^tiN'c^ala Wic^ha's^a] as maybe referring to the Cree ("The Cree Indians ???") Alfred From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 16 19:43:59 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 12:43:59 -0700 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040316121133.01487c30@sask.usask.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Mar 2004, Mary Marino wrote: > S^ahiya is current among Canadian Dakota speakers for 'Cree'. I've never > recorded S^ahiyena. Wow! That's fantastic! Previously I'd only seen it mentioned in old sources as the Assiniboine name for the "Knisteneaux," and in Hidatsa, for example, there is s^ahi' 'Cree'. In Santee and Teton the usual term is 'Rabbit People.' From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 16 19:45:36 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 12:45:36 -0700 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: <40574E15.3010404@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Mar 2004, "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: > These terms' meaning seem to be a bit vague, as Buechel only gives > > _S^ahi'yela_ > > (without question mark!), as "The Cheyenne Indians", whereas > > _S^ahi'ya_ > > somewhat fuzzy as "a tribe of western Indians". I'd forgotten that the term was included in Buechel with no clear reference. From shanwest at uvic.ca Wed Mar 17 07:46:08 2004 From: shanwest at uvic.ca (Shannon West) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 23:46:08 -0800 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: >On Tue, 16 Mar 2004, Mary Marino wrote: > > >>S^ahiya is current among Canadian Dakota speakers for 'Cree'. I've never >>recorded S^ahiyena. >> >> > >Wow! That's fantastic! Previously I'd only seen it mentioned in old >sources as the Assiniboine name for the "Knisteneaux," and in Hidatsa, for >example, there is s^ahi' 'Cree'. In Santee and Teton the usual term is >'Rabbit People.' > > Oh nifty! There's a place in central Saskatchewan called "Kinistino". I never made the connection before. And I've seen S^ahiya in my notes from Assiniboine class, but I honestly don't remember her saying it. I'm sure it referred to the Cree though. Shannon From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 17 16:31:32 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 09:31:32 -0700 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: <40580240.1050405@uvic.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Mar 2004, Shannon West wrote: > >Wow! That's fantastic! Previously I'd only seen it mentioned in old > >sources as the Assiniboine name for the "Knisteneaux," ... > Oh nifty! There's a place in central Saskatchewan called "Kinistino". I never > made the connection before. You also see things on the order of Cristeneaux wandering toward Christianeaux. I'm not sure what the origin of the term is. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Mar 17 17:11:15 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:11:15 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > You also see things on the order of Cristeneaux wandering toward > Christianeaux. I'm not sure what the origin of the term is. There are dozens of variants: [krVst-] (1640-), [kVlist-] (1658-), [kVnist-] (1672-) Cree is probably primarily < Canadian Fr. Cris < Kiristinous, Christinaux, but perhaps also in part directly < Eng. Cristeens, Christianaux. Both the Fr. and the Eng. are < Ojibway (17c., Algonquin dialect) kiris^tino; see *KENISTENO. [based on Hdbk. N. Amer. Indians VI. (1981) 268/2 and on email from Dave Pentland 1999] Alan From rankin at ku.edu Wed Mar 17 17:35:02 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:35:02 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man" Message-ID: Might have something to do with the fact that Cree, like Siouan, has the [dh, n, r, l, y] variation for its dental approximant phoneme. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Alan Hartley [mailto:ahartley at d.umn.edu] Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 11:11 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Terms for "white man" > You also see things on the order of Cristeneaux wandering toward > Christianeaux. I'm not sure what the origin of the term is. There are dozens of variants: [krVst-] (1640-), [kVlist-] (1658-), [kVnist-] (1672-) Cree is probably primarily < Canadian Fr. Cris < Kiristinous, Christinaux, but perhaps also in part directly < Eng. Cristeens, Christianaux. Both the Fr. and the Eng. are < Ojibway (17c., Algonquin dialect) kiris^tino; see *KENISTENO. [based on Hdbk. N. Amer. Indians VI. (1981) 268/2 and on email from Dave Pentland 1999] Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Mar 17 17:55:09 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:55:09 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D01233A30@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: There were Ojibway dialects at various times and places with reflexes r, l, and n for Proto-Algonquian l; it's n in modern O.) Alan > Might have something to do with the fact that Cree, like Siouan, has the > [dh, n, r, l, y] variation for its dental approximant phoneme. > > Bob From alber033 at tc.umn.edu Wed Mar 17 18:47:46 2004 From: alber033 at tc.umn.edu (Patricia Albers) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:47:46 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: <40580240.1050405@uvic.ca> Message-ID: In the late 1960s and early 1970s, the Dakotas at Spirit Lake used S'ahiya for Plains Cree and Plains Ojibwe. Sagada was used for people of French/Scotch and Cree, Ojibwe, and Assiniboin backgrounds --otherwise known as Metis. Generally, the people who were enrolled at Turtle Mountain were called Sagada as opposed to Ojibwe at Red Lake who were known as Hahatonwan. Cree/Ojibwe in Saskatchewan at Piapot Reserve were called S'ahiya. Pat Albers >Koontz John E wrote: > >>On Tue, 16 Mar 2004, Mary Marino wrote: >> >>>S^ahiya is current among Canadian Dakota speakers for 'Cree'. I've never >>>recorded S^ahiyena. >>> >>> >> >>Wow! That's fantastic! Previously I'd only seen it mentioned in old >>sources as the Assiniboine name for the "Knisteneaux," and in Hidatsa, for >>example, there is s^ahi' 'Cree'. In Santee and Teton the usual term is >>'Rabbit People.' >> >Oh nifty! There's a place in central Saskatchewan called >"Kinistino". I never made the connection before. > >And I've seen S^ahiya in my notes from Assiniboine class, but I >honestly don't remember her saying it. I'm sure it referred to the >Cree though. > >Shannon From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Wed Mar 17 19:31:53 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 20:31:53 +0100 Subject: Terms for "white man" Message-ID: That'what I found here: http://www.native-languages.org/cree.htm >>"Cree" comes from the French name for the tribe, "Kristenaux," variously said to be a corruption of the French word for "Christian" or an Algonquian word for "first people." When speaking their own language the Cree refer to themselves as Ayisiniwok, meaning "true men," or Iyiniwok, Eenou, Iynu, or Eeyou, meaning simply "the people" (these words have the same Central Algonquian root as the Montagnais word Innu).<< BTW, can anybody tell me why the Cree are called Rabbit People in Dakota? (Has it to do with a totem animal?) That's what I found here about this name (referring to the Plains Cree): http://www.d.umn.edu/~tbacig/mhcpresent/metisprs.html >>Some major Ojibwe had specific names according to location: Missisauga in southern Ontario; Salteaux of upper Michigan; and Bungee for the Ojibwe of the northern Great Plains. Other names: Aoechisaeronon (Huron), Assisagigroone (Iroquois), Axshissayerunu, (Wyandot), Bawichtigouek (French), Bedzaqetcha (Tsattine), Bedzietcho (Kawchodinne), Bungee (Plains Ojibwe, Plains Chippewa) (Hudson Bay), Dewakanha (Mohawk), Dshipowehaga (Caughnawaga), Dwakanen (Onondaga), Eskiaeronnon (Huron), Hahatonwan (Dakota), Hahatonway (Hidatsa), Jumper, Kutaki (Fox), Leaper, Neayaog (Cree), Nwaka (Tuscarora), Ostiagahoroone (Iroquois), Paouichtigouin (French), RABBIT PEOPLE (Plains Cree),Regatci (Negatce) (Winnebago), Saulteur (Saulteaux) (French), Sore Face (Hunkpapa Lakota), Sotoe (British), and Wahkahtowah (Assiniboine).<< Maybe the answer can be found here: http://christianmorrisseau.myknet.org/ Alfred Alfred From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 17 20:10:35 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:10:35 -0700 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Mar 2004, Patricia Albers wrote: > In the late 1960s and early 1970s, the Dakotas at Spirit Lake used > S'ahiya for Plains Cree and Plains Ojibwe. Sagada was used for > people of French/Scotch and Cree, Ojibwe, and Assiniboin backgrounds > --otherwise known as Metis. Generally, the people who were enrolled > at Turtle Mountain were called Sagada as opposed to Ojibwe at Red > Lake who were known as Hahatonwan. Cree/Ojibwe in Saskatchewan at > Piapot Reserve were called S'ahiya. Pat Albers The sagada term looks like a truncation of our old friend the 'British, Canadian' term, cf. Teton s^aglas^a (via Algonquian languages from French "[le]s Anglais"). I think I have the Teton fricative grades right, but maybe not. Of course, in this case truncation could amount to borrowing the term from an Algonquian context in which the Algonquian diminutive-pejorative (the final fricative) was missing. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 17 20:29:04 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:29:04 -0700 Subject: Dental Sonorants or Approximants (Re: Terms for "white man") In-Reply-To: <405890FD.8010102@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > There were Ojibway dialects at various times and places with reflexes r, > l, and n for Proto-Algonquian l; it's n in modern O.) > Rankin: > > Might have something to do with the fact that Cree, like Siouan, has the > > [dh, n, r, l, y] variation for its dental approximant phoneme. It seems like this is characteristic of all of the large Northeastern dialect chains. In Siouan we might say that we have two or three of these chains, e.g., Dakotan (Te l ~ n, Sa d ~ n, Ya d ~ n, As n, St n - and really these all alternate with y in historically unclustered contexts, too), and Dhegiha (OP dh ~ n, Ks y ~ l ~ n, Os dh ~ r ~ l ~ n, Qu d ~ n, with the first alternant in Ks and OS being the unclustered alternant). Winnebago and Ioway-Otoe are a bit too far apart to be called dialects, but Winnebago has r ~ n, and IO has something that is usually written r ~ n at the moment, but has been written l ~ n in the past. In all cases where there is an n alternant, this is what occurs before nasal vowels, albeit not all nasal vowels, and some n's seem to have a different source. If there's only an n variant, then n occurs everywhere. (However, I'm not completely positive this is a fair characterization of Assiniboine or Stoney.) Outside of Mississippi Valley Siouan, in Missouri River Siouan or Crow-Hidatsa, Kaschube writes r for Crow (perhaps an arbitrary choice of a neutral symbol for the underlying entity), while the current popular orthography writes d ~ l ~ n, depending on context. Hidatsa specialists have somewhat similar ranges of practices, but I think at present they are writing n ~ r, depending on context. These languages don't have nasal vowels, and Crow n occurs in rr clusters (nn) and, I think finally, while in Hidatsa it occurs at least initially and probably also in clusters, though I don't recall the details. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Mar 17 20:45:58 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:45:58 -0800 Subject: Dental Sonorants or Approximants Message-ID: This r/n/l/y variation is also found all over New England Algonquian. They're all reflexes of Proto-Eastern Algonquian */r/. Some poorly attested Algonquian languages of Maryland even have 'z' for this sound. No voiced interdental fricatives, however. Dave Costa > On Wed, 17 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: There were Ojibway dialects at > various times and places with reflexes r, l, and n for Proto-Algonquian l; > it's n in modern O.) > Rankin: Might have something to do with the fact that Cree, like Siouan, has > the [dh, n, r, l, y] variation for its dental approximant phoneme. > It seems like this is characteristic of all of the large Northeastern dialect > chains. In Siouan we might say that we have two or three of these chains, > e.g., Dakotan (Te l ~ n, Sa d ~ n, Ya d ~ n, As n, St n - and really these all > alternate with y in historically unclustered contexts, too), and Dhegiha (OP > dh ~ n, Ks y ~ l ~ n, Os dh ~ r ~ l ~ n, Qu d ~ n, with the first alternant in > Ks and OS being the unclustered alternant). Winnebago and Ioway-Otoe are a bit > too far apart to be called dialects, but Winnebago has r ~ n, and IO has > something that is usually written r ~ n at the moment, but has been written l > ~ n in the past. In all cases where there is an n alternant, this is what > occurs before nasal vowels, albeit not all nasal vowels, and some n's seem to > have a different source. If there's only an n variant, then n occurs > everywhere. (However, I'm not completely positive this is a fair > characterization of Assiniboine or Stoney.) > Outside of Mississippi Valley Siouan, in Missouri River Siouan or > Crow-Hidatsa, Kaschube writes r for Crow (perhaps an arbitrary choice of a > neutral symbol for the underlying entity), while the current popular > orthography writes d ~ l ~ n, depending on context. Hidatsa specialists have > somewhat similar ranges of practices, but I think at present they are writing > n ~ r, depending on context. These languages don't have nasal vowels, and > Crow n occurs in rr clusters (nn) and, I think finally, while in Hidatsa it > occurs at least initially and probably also in clusters, though I don't recall > the details. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Mar 18 00:32:39 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 17:32:39 -0700 Subject: Dental Sonorants or Approximants In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > They're all reflexes of Proto-Eastern Algonquian */r/. Some poorly attested > Algonquian languages of Maryland even have 'z' for this sound. No voiced > interdental fricatives, however. The OP dh sounds to some extent like edh, but it actually seems to be some sort of post-alveolar lateral. Maybe that's where the z comes from, too. The shift of intervocalic s (probably always z) to r is fairly widely attested, e.g., in Latin, where, as I understand it, the infinitive in -re is from an old locative in *se (or maybe it was *si). And Norse -Vr masculine singulars and plurals are from *-Vz. As I understand it there a sort of continuum from fricative to trill - trilling is exagerated friction? However, I don't think any of the Siouan r's are trilled, just tapped. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Mar 18 00:24:33 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:24:33 -0600 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Patricia Albers wrote: > Generally, the people who were enrolled at > Turtle Mountain were called Sagada as opposed to Ojibwe at Red Lake who > were known as Hahatonwan. Riggs (Dict. 160) has Ha-ha'-toN-waN [both h's with dot below] 'the Chippewa or Ojibway Indians, the name given to them by the Dakotas, as those who make their village at the falls'. This is probably a translation of the Ojibway band-name pa:wittikwininiwak ?people of the rapids? (specif. of Sault Ste. Marie between lakes Superior and Huron), whence also Fr. Sauteur 'rapids or falls person' and Saulteaux, the current Eng. name of a division of the Ojibwa occupying western Ontario and eastern Manitoba. Alan From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Thu Mar 18 08:33:08 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:33:08 +0100 Subject: Dental sonorants ... Message-ID: >(John:)The shift of intervocalic s (probably always z) to r is fairly widely attested, e.g., in Latin, where, as I understand it, the infinitive in -re is from an old locative in *se (or maybe it was *si). And Norse -Vr masculine singulars and plurals are from *-Vz. As I understand it there a sort of continuum from fricative to trill - trilling is exagerated friction? However, I don't think any of the Siouan r's are trilled, just tapped.<< It appears that S (Z, TH/DH), L and R are pretty close and interchangeable (in the sense of shift) in many languages, obviously due to the tongue tip's position: e.g. Chinese/Japanese: L/R, Latin/Romanian: (intervocalic) L -> R (angelus -> ?nger(-ul), filum -> fir(-ul) etc.), Welsh: LL is produced with the tongue tip in L-position and 'blowing' as if pronouncing an S. Alfred From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Mar 18 11:36:38 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 11:36:38 +0000 Subject: Terms for "white man" In-Reply-To: <4058A7A9.5060806@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: On 17/3/04 7:31 pm, "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: > That'what I found here: > > http://www.native-languages.org/cree.htm > >>> "Cree" comes from the French name for the tribe, "Kristenaux," > variously said to be a corruption of the French word for "Christian" or > an Algonquian word for "first people." When speaking their own language > the Cree refer to themselves as Ayisiniwok, meaning "true men," or > Iyiniwok, Eenou, Iynu, or Eeyou, meaning simply "the people" (these > words have the same Central Algonquian root as the Montagnais word Innu).<< > > BTW, can anybody tell me why the Cree are called Rabbit People in > Dakota? (Has it to do with a totem animal?) That's what I found here > about this name (referring to the Plains Cree): > > http://www.d.umn.edu/~tbacig/mhcpresent/metisprs.html > >>> Some major Ojibwe had specific names according to location: Neayaog (Cree), > (Negatce) > > Maybe the answer can be found here: > > http://christianmorrisseau.myknet.org/ > > > Alfred > > > > > Alfred > > > > > The Plains Cree also call themselves Nehiyaw-ak. Is there any original meaning fro that word? Bruce From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Mar 18 11:41:44 2004 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 11:41:44 +0000 Subject: Lakota letter from Leeds at the turn of the century Message-ID: Dear all I did not get much response for this earlier, perhaps because I had sent it with the heading Active & Stative verbs. Has any one any suggestions. I hope to be able to send a facsimile of the actual letter in hand writing later. Bruce Dear all A friend of mine is writing a book on contacts between Scotland and the American Indians. He located a letter from the Yorkshire Evening Post dated 2001 I think in which there is a facsimile of a letter from a Lakota with the Buffalo Bill Outfit to his father in America. It is in the old copper plate cursive type handwriting and I am not always clear on the actual letters but seems to be like this, with his lines and spaces, with dubious items in brackets. He uses dots over s (and n) etc which I here mark with ^: Ito ate le anpetu kin wowape cicu kte lo na (eya) mis^ taku na ota-aciciya un^ kte s^ni tka itoptelye la wocici ya kin kte lo (letuya) waon tka taku s^ica wa ons^niyelo lila tanyan waon welo iho hecetu we lo I take this to be Ito ate le anpetu kin wowapi cic'u kte lo na (eya) mis^ takuna ota aciciya uN kte s^ni tka itoptelyela wociciyakin kte lo. Letuya wauN tka taku s^ica wauN s^ni yelo. Lila taNyaN wauN welo. Iho hecetu welo. Does anyone have any comments. I wish I could send it as a photocopy. The sentence that floors me is takuna ota aciciya uN kte s^ni tka, also the use of itoptelyela which I suppose is an alternative to optoptelya meaning 'for a while' Any ideas Bruce From jfu at centrum.cz Thu Mar 18 07:25:21 2004 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:25:21 +0100 Subject: Lakota letter from Leeds at the turn of the century In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bruce, In my experience with handwritten texts by early Lakota literates there are very frequent confusions of letters. So I think it is likely that ?takuna ota aciciya un kte s^ni? stands for ?takuni ota echiciya un kte s^ni? = ?I won?t say much to you(pl.)? where ?echiciya un kte? could be the colloquial for ?echiciyapi kte? > Ito ate le anpetu kin wowapi cic'u kte lo na (eya) mis^ takuna ota aciciya > uN kte s^ni tka itoptelyela wociciyakin kte lo. Letuya wauN tka > taku s^ica > wauN s^ni yelo. Lila taNyaN wauN welo. Iho hecetu welo. The translation then would be: ?My father, I am sending (?giving?) you a letter today. I am not going to tell you(pl.) much, but I will speak to you shortly. Here where I am I have no troubles. I am doing very well. That is all (?That is the way it is?). Indeed, the switching between singular and plural in the three verbs of the first sentence is weird (wowapi chic?u; echiciyapi; wochiciyakin kte). So alternatively ?un? is some sort of a stumbled word or part of a word, perhaps ?echiciya waun kte shni?. Such cases are not uncommon in Lakota manuscripts either. > I wish I could send it as a photocopy. With brief texts like this the option is to scan the page and send it as an attachment in JPEG format. Reading the actual handwriting sometimes allows multiple interpretations. Jan Jan Ullrich American Indian Studies Research Institute Indiana University, Bloomington www.inext.cz/siouan From napshawin at msn.com Thu Mar 18 23:10:03 2004 From: napshawin at msn.com (CATCHES VIOLET) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 17:10:03 -0600 Subject: Lakota letter from Leeds at the turn of the century Message-ID: Itxo, ate' le anpetu kin wowapi chic'u kte lo na eya, mish taku na (ni) (perhaps, takuni) ota achiciya (echiciya) un kte shni tkxa itxo ptelyela (ptelyela) wochiciyakin kte lo (letuya) wa-un tkxa taku shica wa-yun shni yelo lila tanyan wa-un welo Iho. Hechetu welo This is the version in the way I write with the Txakini-Iya Wowapi. Violet Catches, miye >Ito ate le anpetu >kin wowape cicu >kte lo na (eya) mis^ >taku na ota-aciciya >un^ kte s^ni tka >itoptelye la wocici >ya kin kte lo (letuya) >waon tka taku >s^ica wa ons^niyelo >lila tanyan waon >welo iho hecetu >we lo > >I take this to be >Ito ate le anpetu kin wowapi cic'u kte lo na (eya) mis^ takuna ota aciciya >uN kte s^ni tka itoptelyela wociciyakin kte lo. Letuya wauN tka taku s^ica >wauN s^ni yelo. Lila taNyaN wauN welo. Iho hecetu welo. >Does anyone have any comments. I wish I could send it as a photocopy. The >sentence that floors me is takuna ota aciciya uN kte s^ni tka, also the use >of itoptelyela which I suppose is an alternative to optoptelya meaning 'for > a while' > >Any ideas >Bruce > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee? Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Fri Mar 19 08:11:14 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:11:14 +0100 Subject: Lakota letter from Leeds at the turn of the century Message-ID: > (Jan:) ?My father, I am sending (?giving?) you a letter today. I am not going to tell you(pl.) much, but I will speak to you shortly. Here where I am I have no troubles. I am doing very well. That is all (?That is the way it is?). Indeed, the switching between singular and plural in the three verbs of the first sentence is weird (wowapi chic?u; echiciyapi; wochiciyakin kte). So alternatively ?un? is some sort of a stumbled word or part of a word, perhaps ?echiciya waun kte shni?. Such cases are not uncommon in Lakota manuscripts either.<< The _echiciya uN kte_ <- _echicia pi kte_ interpretation, to me, seems quite convincing :-) (Thanks!) Here, just my two cents referring to the 'weird' switching between singular and plural: As being familiar to the ancient (German) dialect of the Transylvanian Saxons/Siebenb?rger Sachsen (although not really being a speaker myself) I can tell you that this issue is a - syntactical/logical(?) - peculiarity of this language also, even when transferred into the modern High German they speak. So, I usually hear (German) sentences like this: 1) "Karin sind gekommen" (K. _have_ come) - i.e. she's come with, say, her husband (=myself), her sister, children etc. 2) "Wir sind mit Mutti dort gewesen" (we've been there with Mom) - i.e. Mom and I have been there (=we two) This (#1) is kind of pars pro toto, which might also be the idea behind the above Lakota addressing: "My father (and Mom, brothers etc.) ..." Alfred From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Mar 20 04:40:40 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 21:40:40 -0700 Subject: Siouan & Caddoan Languages Conference update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > Has anyone seen an announcement on the Linguist List? I sent one in a > while back, but never saw it -- may have deleted it by mistake among the > daily flood of spam??? Truthfully, I don't recall seeing it either, but I searched and found it in their archives at: http://linguistlist.org/issues/15/15-507.html#2 Message 2: 24th Annual Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 13:02:53 -0500 (EST) From: carudin1 Subject: 24th Annual Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference === Message one was about the 2004 Linguistic Society of Korea International Conference so I probably deleted the whoe thing without reading further. LinguistList used to be fairly interesting, but I notice it doesn't have much actual discussion these days. It's more like the reading the Bulletin than reading the Journal, to draw an analogy with the LSA's publications. I hope to see some of you folks in June. JEK From mary.marino at usask.ca Sat Mar 20 05:40:58 2004 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Mary Marino) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:40:58 -0600 Subject: Siouan & Caddoan Languages Conference update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, You'll see me, in any case. I didn't see this announcement either, and I suspect I deleted it. Will be more attentive and careful in future. Mary At 09:40 PM 3/19/2004 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC wrote: > > Has anyone seen an announcement on the Linguist List? I sent one in a > > while back, but never saw it -- may have deleted it by mistake among the > > daily flood of spam??? > >Truthfully, I don't recall seeing it either, but I searched and found it >in their archives at: > >http://linguistlist.org/issues/15/15-507.html#2 > >Message 2: 24th Annual Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference >Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 13:02:53 -0500 (EST) >From: carudin1 >Subject: 24th Annual Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference > > >=== > >Message one was about the 2004 Linguistic Society of Korea International >Conference so I probably deleted the whoe thing without reading further. >LinguistList used to be fairly interesting, but I notice it doesn't have >much actual discussion these days. It's more like the reading the >Bulletin than reading the Journal, to draw an analogy with the LSA's >publications. > >I hope to see some of you folks in June. > >JEK From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sat Mar 20 15:41:07 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 09:41:07 -0600 Subject: early spellings Message-ID: A recent post to the Chinook listserv posed the question of what the early English system(s) of transcription of Indian words was called and how those spellings might be interpreted. Following is my reply which I thought might be pertinent to some Siouan questions: John Koontz calls it (or something like it) the "Lewis & Clark Phonetic Alphabet" (http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/faq/orthography.htm#LCPA) Most of the journalists of the Lewis and Clark expedition were nonrhotic speakers of English, as I imagine was Dunn, so their nonstandard spellings have a lot of dropped and added r's. The question arises whether these added r's--as in warter and musquetors--indicated a pronounced r or were simply a reverse spelling. It's hard to say in the case of English words that in some dialects do have an intrusive r (Warshington), but Indian words with no trace of r and which the journalists would seldom if ever have seen written provide pretty convincing evidence of simple reverse spelling. (In the following list of L & C spellings, * marks words written both with and without r, including the English 'exhaust' and French 'cache'.) In stressed syllables: Ahwahaway [Amahami] (Ahwahharway), *cache (carsh, cash), *camas (quarmash, quarmarsh, quawmash), Dakota (Darcotar), *Kalapuya (Cal-lar-po-e-wah, Cal-l?h-po-e-wah), Mahaha (Mahharha), *Nemaha (Nemarhar, Moha), *Omaha (Mahar, Maha), *Osage (Osarge, osoge), pasheco (pashaquar), *pogamoggan (pog-gar-mag-gon, Poggamoggon), Ponashita(P?r-n?sh-te), *Sacagawea (S?hc?hg?we?, Sahcahgarweah), Shaha (Sharha), yampa (yearpah [with deletion of the nasal in this dialect of Shoshone]), *exhaust (exorst, exost, exhost), *Multnomah (Multnomah and Multnomar, Multnomah, Moltnomar), *Nodaway (nordaway, Nodaway, Nardaway), *Pawnee (Parnee, Paunee, Pania), pembina (Pembenar), Poncas (Porncases), shapat [Arikara ?woman?] (Char-part), tw?nhayuksh [Chinookan ?enemies?] (Towarnehiooks). In unstressed syllables: *camas (quarmarsh), Dakota (darcotar), Kansa (kansar), *Wetesoon (WauteSoon, Weter Soon), Tacoutche-Tesse (Tarcouche tesse), *Wakiacum (Warkiacum, Wackiacum, warkiacome), *Watlala (Warclellar, Wahclellar, Wahclellah) There are many other peculiarities to watch out for in using English spellings to deduce the pronunciation of native words. L & C, for instance, very often switch short i and short e in their writings, and it's difficult to say just what pron. was intended in each case. (In modern southern English, short e is often raised to short i and short i is NOT lowered to short e, but in L & C, there's evidence that it works both ways.) In short, in order to draw conclusions about native pronunciations from early transcriptions in English, one has to know a lot about 1.) the pronunciation of the journalist's dialect, and 2.) the journalist's orthographic habits. Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Mar 20 21:26:43 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 14:26:43 -0700 Subject: early spellings In-Reply-To: <405C6613.2060409@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > A recent post to the Chinook listserv posed the question of what the > early English system(s) of transcription of Indian words was called and > how those spellings might be interpreted. Following is my reply which I > thought might be pertinent to some Siouan questions: > > John Koontz calls it (or something like it) the "Lewis & Clark Phonetic > Alphabet" (http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/faq/orthography.htm#LCPA) I meant this entirely tongue in cheek, of course. There really wasn't any system at all in general use, though you can find cases of more systematic use somewhat later. I think the really standardized system used in America for transcribing Native American languages was the BAE system. however, it and its successors have never had the slightest influence on popular usage. Anyway, Alan, the logic of your deductions here strikes me as excellent. > The question arises whether these added r's--as in warter and > musquetors--indicated a pronounced r or were simply a reverse spelling. > It's hard to say in the case of English words that in some dialects do > have an intrusive r (Warshington), but Indian words with no trace of r > and which the journalists would seldom if ever have seen written provide > pretty convincing evidence of simple reverse spelling. Incidentally, as a child growing up near Buldimore, Mirlin, I always said (rhotic) worsh and Worshingtin, since I was being raised in Maryland where this is notoriously the use. My mother was (and still is) a native speaker of Mirlindish, though the vowel shifts have progressed enormously since her childhood. It was only in third grade during the required unit on Maryland history that I suddenly realized that the state name had nothing to do with the given name Marilyn, both of which were pronounced mirlin (as in Mirlin Munro) (the -o is epsilon+w). I combined my Mirlindese with alien pronunciations like boosh and poosh which I have since realized were acquired from my Kansas-born father. I remember being teased constantly for talking like this, though that was nothing to the flabber-begastment of kids in Detroit and Denver to Mirlindese. "Where are you from? Are you English?" During German classes in college I suddenly realized that the family pronunciation of Koontz ("long" oo of coon, not "short" oo of book as would be expected) might reflect this Kansas phase. This began when my native-speaker German teacher attempted delicately to correct my pronunciation of Koontz. Until then it had not occurred to me that I might be saying it wrong from a German perspective. Of course, I'm not sure if "short" oo really can occur before n in English, and maybe that's the more important factor. Given the range of vowel pronunciations in English and the degree of disconnect between vowel spelling and that pronunciation, it is not surprising that we are often at sea in deciphering English-based spelling of Native American languages. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Mar 20 21:46:12 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 14:46:12 -0700 Subject: (O)maha Message-ID: Not to mention Mahar. I was just reading Bill Bright's comments in the SSILA Newsletter on Colonial French truncated tribal names in Plains and Prairie region, like (Nadoues)sioux and Kaw < Ka(n)(sas). He didn't mention Cree < Cri(s) < Cristeneaux, by the way! Or Ree < (Arica)ris, which must be the same pattern. However, he did mention some cases of placenames in which initial O- reflects French 'aux', as in Oka < Aux Ka(s) 'at the Kaws' and Ozarks < aux Arcs 'at the Arkansas'. It suddenly occurred to me, speculatively, that the truncation of initial O in Omaha might be either this form of affective truncation or, equally, it might be the result of taking it to be aux 'at the'. I don't know that Omaha is ever attested in the early accounts. So perhaps Omahas was reanalyzed as 'aux Mahas'? I believe that during much of the 1700s the Omahas were living at a particular place known since as Omaha Creek, so that thinking of the place as 'aux Mahas' might have been natural. This is also somewhat consistant with referring to the Poncas as 'mahas erran(t)s' 'wandering Omahas'. Of course, Osage doesn't get reduced to Sage. In fact, I believe O(s) was the usual form. But perhaps the Osage where not associated with a particular place for so long, or perhaps, the lot having fallen on the first syllable, it was not liable to reanalysis. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Mar 21 04:18:39 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 22:18:39 -0600 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > It suddenly occurred to me, speculatively, that the truncation of initial > O in Omaha might be either this form of affective truncation or, equally, > it might be the result of taking it to be aux 'at the'. I don't know that > Omaha is ever attested in the early accounts. The earliest I've seen with O- is 1814 H. M. BRACKENRIDGE Views Louisiana I. vi. 76 "Mahas, (or Oo-ma-ha) Reside on the Maha creek." This doesn't seem like "aux" to me. Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Mar 21 19:47:29 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 12:47:29 -0700 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: <405D179F.2020304@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > The earliest I've seen with O- is 1814 H. M. BRACKENRIDGE Views > Louisiana I. vi. 76 "Mahas, (or Oo-ma-ha) Reside on the Maha creek." > > This doesn't seem like "aux" to me. Do you mean in general, or in the context of this example? I admit the idea has its weaknesses, of course. Apart from simple issues of satisfactory attestation, lack of parallelism in handling of Osage, and distinguishing this approach from truncation, the u-pronunciation of the locative or directional prefix in Omaha-Ponca (*o > u, *u > i, *i > i) is a possible issue. However, all the adjacent and downriver Siouan groups retain o, and the u is not a particularly high one. What if you think of the citation here in French terms, "Mahas, (ou ou-ma-ha) Demeurent au ruisseau Maha." I think you could fairly say au Maha or aux Mahas, depending on whether you refer to the creek or the people. Or is the preposition a correct in this context in French? My French is definitely sort of catch as catch can. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Mar 21 19:51:34 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 12:51:34 -0700 Subject: Away from the List Message-ID: The system I use to access the list will be off line March 25-27. John Koontz From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Mar 21 19:57:02 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 12:57:02 -0700 Subject: Away from the List, Addendum In-Reply-To: <200403110018.i2B0IMmB026578@perceval.colorado.edu> Message-ID: It occurs to me that I should probably say that, as far as I can see, the list itself will be unaffected. I believe lists are supported by a different machine. However, any interruption that might arise will be temporary. John Koontz From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Mar 21 20:02:29 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 14:02:29 -0600 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: >>The earliest I've seen with O- is 1814 H. M. BRACKENRIDGE Views >>Louisiana I. vi. 76 "Mahas, (or Oo-ma-ha) Reside on the Maha creek." >> >>This doesn't seem like "aux" to me. > > > Do you mean in general, or in the context of this example? I mean here specifically, because of the vowel quality. Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Mar 22 02:48:06 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 20:48:06 -0600 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > It suddenly occurred to me, speculatively, that the truncation of initial > O in Omaha might be either this form of affective truncation or, equally, > it might be the result of taking it to be aux 'at the'. I don't know that > Omaha is ever attested in the early accounts. So perhaps Omahas was > reanalyzed as 'aux Mahas'? Can maha stand alone (without the [locative?] o-) in Dhegiha? The earliest record I know of is Marquette's Maha in 1673, and I don't recall any examples of 'aux Mahas' (though bear in mind that my recall sometimes falls short!) Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 22 05:25:27 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 22:25:27 -0700 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: <405E53E6.70106@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > Can maha stand alone (without the [locative?] o-) in Dhegiha? It's not known to occur that way, and, oddly enough, neither is umaN'haN ~ omaN'haN. What I've seen is: Dakotan O'ma(N)ha 'Omaha' Omaha-Ponca UmaN'haN (final syllable usually denasalized to schwa) 'Omaha' kki'maNhaN-ugaxdhe 'facing against the wind (e.g., of elk)' (looks like a reflexive?) Ni'maNhaN 'a personal name' (may be 'Muddy Water(s)' with a homophonous root maNha(N) 'muddy') (Probably not a reference to McKinley Morganfield, however.) s^u'demaNhaN=xti 'a very thick fog' (s^u'de 'smoke, most', xti 'very', maybe also 'maNha(N) 'muddy', perhaps 'mudbank mist'?) Note that while the name Omaha is said to mean 'against the wind or current', hence 'upstream', the OP form Dorsey gives for 'upstream, north' in normal use is itta'gha=tta. It's possible that there are contexts in which umaN'haN occurs as 'upstream' or something like that, but it's also possible that the meaning is deduced from kki'maNhaN, which is widely attested, plus the usual sense of u-forms. The u- locative is the OP version of PSi o-, cf. o- in that capacity in most other Mississippi Valley langauges, and is due to the *o > u vowel shift in Omaha-Ponca. Ks kki'maNhaN 'against the wind or current' Os hki'maNhaN 'against the wind or current' Quapaw: kki'maNhaN 'against the wind or current' I'maNhaN 'name of a Quapaw village which later merged with the Caddo' (with the locative i- 'with; in the direction of' instead of o- 'in, at') (presumably etymologically 'upstream(ward)') Ioway-Otoe iromaNhaN 'upstream' (i + o + maNhaN) umaNhaN 'upstream' (perhaps only as explanation of Omaha ethnonym?) Winnebago: maNaNhaN' 'go against the medium' hiromaNhaN=iNj^a 'at the upper part (of the river)' (i + o + maNhaN) Note that IO and Wi do attest *omaN(aN)haN, albeit in the further derived *iro'maNhaN. The sequence *iro- (Da iyo-, OP udhu-, Ks oyo-, Os odho-, IO iro-, Wi hiro-) is the PSi (or just Proto-MVS?) compound of the *i and *o locatives. I'm not sure if the IO form umaN'haN is supposed to exist independently (I think *o- > *u- is normal in initial position), or merely to explain Omaha, but, in principle, it is an attestation of *omaN(aN)'haN. Interestingly, it's the only one outside of the ethnonym. Also note that Wi is the only language where the bare form maNaNhaN' is attested. I think this collection of forms is more or less complete for the usual lexical sources, but is probably far from complete in terms of actual forms, since the dictionaries are at best extensive samples. > The earliest record I know of is Marquette's Maha in 1673, and I don't > recall any examples of 'aux Mahas' (though bear in mind that my recall > sometimes falls short!) Yes, that's the attestation problem I was afraid of - not knowing the sources. It may be insurmountable. Maha(s) without 'aux Mahas' looks more like truncation. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 22 10:26:09 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 05:26:09 -0500 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Let me just add a couple things: 1) Aux Mahas would be perfectly good French for referring to where these folks lived/or where you, as a French person, was heading. We see this form *very often* in the Illinois Country, for example 2) Aux Pes, Aux Mis, Aux Cas, Aux Poux, Aux Ouias, oh oh oh. Marquette wrote < Maha > on his map of the Mississippi, a name he got from the Illinois-speaking Peoria. Michael McCafferty On Sun, 21 Mar 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Sat, 20 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > > The earliest I've seen with O- is 1814 H. M. BRACKENRIDGE Views > > Louisiana I. vi. 76 "Mahas, (or Oo-ma-ha) Reside on the Maha creek." > > > > This doesn't seem like "aux" to me. > > Do you mean in general, or in the context of this example? I admit the > idea has its weaknesses, of course. Apart from simple issues of > satisfactory attestation, lack of parallelism in handling of Osage, and > distinguishing this approach from truncation, the u-pronunciation of the > locative or directional prefix in Omaha-Ponca (*o > u, *u > i, *i > i) is > a possible issue. However, all the adjacent and downriver Siouan groups > retain o, and the u is not a particularly high one. > > What if you think of the citation here in French terms, "Mahas, (ou > ou-ma-ha) Demeurent au ruisseau Maha." I think you could fairly say au > Maha or aux Mahas, depending on whether you refer to the creek or the > people. Or is the preposition a correct in this context in French? My > French is definitely sort of catch as catch can. > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 22 16:39:11 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 09:39:11 -0700 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Marquette wrote < Maha > on his map of the Mississippi, a name he got from > the Illinois-speaking Peoria. Perhaps I am looking in the wrong place. Could the deletion of initial o- in an ethnonym have anything to do with Miami-Illinois morphology? JEK From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Mar 22 16:58:13 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 08:58:13 -0800 Subject: (O)maha Message-ID: Only in the sense that initial short vowels come and go unpredictably with tribe names in M-I (and elsewhere in central Algonquian). It can't be normal phonological processes, since word-initial short vowels are *not* deleted by sound law in old Illinois. In the modern (19th century) language, yes. Incidentally, this word never would have been */oma(:)ha/ in Miami-Illinois, since word-initial short /o/ is not allowed in the language. If it ever had an initial V, it only could have been /a/. But no name for the Omaha is attested in any Miami-Illinois source, other than Marquette's map. There *is* an attested name for the Omaha in Shawnee, though: /maha/, plural /mahaaki/. Dave Costa >> Marquette wrote < Maha > on his map of the Mississippi, a name he got from >> the Illinois-speaking Peoria. > > Perhaps I am looking in the wrong place. Could the deletion of initial o- > in an ethnonym have anything to do with Miami-Illinois morphology? > > JEK From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 22 17:00:31 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 12:00:31 -0500 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, in a way. In Miami-Illinois we'd be talking about ethnonymic prefix /a-/ not /o-/, if it was ever there in < Maha >. Michael Quoting Koontz John E : > On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > Marquette wrote < Maha > on his map of the Mississippi, a name he got from > > the Illinois-speaking Peoria. > > Perhaps I am looking in the wrong place. Could the deletion of initial o- > in an ethnonym have anything to do with Miami-Illinois morphology? > > JEK > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 22 17:45:54 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 10:45:54 -0700 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > Only in the sense that initial short vowels come and go unpredictably with > tribe names in M-I (and elsewhere in central Algonquian). It can't be normal > phonological processes, since word-initial short vowels are *not* deleted by > sound law in old Illinois. In the modern (19th century) language, yes. > > Incidentally, this word never would have been */oma(:)ha/ in Miami-Illinois, > since word-initial short /o/ is not allowed in the language. If it ever had > an initial V, it only could have been /a/. But no name for the Omaha is > attested in any Miami-Illinois source, other than Marquette's map. > > There *is* an attested name for the Omaha in Shawnee, though: /maha/, plural > /mahaaki/. So perhaps the form Maha may owe more to sporadic deletion of short initial vowels in Miami-Illinois than to any hearing problem on the part of Lewis & Clark (as I first thought, some years ago) or to French truncated names (as I've wondered more recently) or to reanalysis of o- as French aux (as I wondered over the weekend)? I take it we can assume that Shawnee is not a particularly likely source for Marquette's Maha listing - more likely Ojibwe or Miami-Illinois? I'm not aware of any of the relevant or even irrelevant Siouan languages having any problems with initial vowels, short or long. JEK From rankin at ku.edu Mon Mar 22 17:47:34 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:47:34 -0600 Subject: (O)maha Message-ID: It would be a-maha as in A-kans(e)a. I sometimes wondered if some of those explorers and early cartographers (many of whom were safely home in Europe) might have occasionally confused (O)maha and Pawnee Mahas. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 10:39 AM Subject: Re: (O)maha > On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > Marquette wrote < Maha > on his map of the Mississippi, a name he got from > > the Illinois-speaking Peoria. > > Perhaps I am looking in the wrong place. Could the deletion of initial o- > in an ethnonym have anything to do with Miami-Illinois morphology? > > JEK > From rankin at ku.edu Mon Mar 22 17:56:32 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:56:32 -0600 Subject: (O)maha Message-ID: > I take it we can assume that Shawnee is not a particularly likely source > for Marquette's Maha listing - more likely Ojibwe or Miami-Illinois? I'm > not aware of any of the relevant or even irrelevant Siouan languages > having any problems with initial vowels, short or long. He acquired the tribal name for his map while exploring the Mississippi. There's no telling how many tribes the name might have filtered through before getting to the Illinois Algonquians. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 22 18:15:25 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:15:25 -0700 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: <005001c41037$51d8b9a0$1bb5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > He acquired the tribal name for his map while exploring the Mississippi. > There's no telling how many tribes the name might have filtered through before > getting to the Illinois Algonquians. True, but the simplest assumption is that it filtered along the Missouri and up and down the Mississippi, or across Iowa-Minnesota-Wisconsin to the Mississippi and Great Lakes to the places where he might most logically have encountered it. We have a general idea what the list of languages would have been, in these cases, and we know his main contact languages, too. Of course, there are some anomalies like the mysterious Michigamea language to warn us that we don't have all the cards from the original deck. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 22 18:18:50 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:18:50 -0700 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: <003a01c41035$d7d777f0$1bb5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > ... I sometimes wondered if some of those explorers and early > cartographers (many of whom were safely home in Europe) might have > occasionally confused (O)maha and Pawnee Mahas. I don't recall specifics, but I have certainly run across comments which suggested as much. I should have listed ppadhiN(-)(u?)maNhaN as a form with -maNhaN. I don't recall at the moment what the precise form is, or even if it is attested for Skiri in Omaha-Ponca. I think it is. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Mar 22 18:27:06 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 12:27:06 -0600 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > So perhaps the form Maha may owe more to sporadic deletion of short > initial vowels in Miami-Illinois Sounds like the best bet. > I take it we can assume that Shawnee is not a particularly likely source > for Marquette's Maha I think that's true. A possible route would be: Siouan > Miami-Illinois > Shawnee (and French) Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Mon Mar 22 22:34:08 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:34:08 -0600 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > I should have listed ppadhiN(-)(u?)maNhaN as a form with -maNhaN. I don't > recall at the moment what the precise form is, or even if it is attested > for Skiri in Omaha-Ponca. I think it is. < Fr Panimaha (1687), perhaps via Illinois pa:nimaha, < a Dhegiha word (cf. Quapaw ppanim?ha, Omaha & Osage pp?dhiNmaNhaN, Kansa pp?yiNm?haN) meaning 'upstream Pawnees' based on Papers 31st Algonquian Conf. (2000) 39 (D. Costa), and on Hdbk. N. Amer. Indians XIII. (2001) 545 (D. Parks) The OP form is in Dorsey 1890. Note also Creek Pa-ni-ma-hu and Shawnee pa:nimoho. Alan From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 22 22:55:23 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 17:55:23 -0500 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Koontz John E : > On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > > Only in the sense that initial short vowels come and go unpredictably with > > tribe names in M-I (and elsewhere in central Algonquian). It can't be > normal > > phonological processes, since word-initial short vowels are *not* deleted > by > > sound law in old Illinois. In the modern (19th century) language, yes. > > > > Incidentally, this word never would have been */oma(:)ha/ in > Miami-Illinois, > > since word-initial short /o/ is not allowed in the language. If it ever > had > > an initial V, it only could have been /a/. But no name for the Omaha is > > attested in any Miami-Illinois source, other than Marquette's map. > > > > There *is* an attested name for the Omaha in Shawnee, though: /maha/, > plural > > /mahaaki/. > > So perhaps the form Maha may owe more to sporadic deletion of short > initial vowels in Miami-Illinois Unlikely, in light of what Dave said. It's in the most recent records of the language that we see this loss than to any hearing problem on the part > of Lewis & Clark (as I first thought, some years ago) or to French > truncated names (as I've wondered more recently) or to reanalysis of o- as > French aux (as I wondered over the weekend)? > > I take it we can assume that Shawnee is not a particularly likely source > for Marquette's Maha listing - more likely Ojibwe or Miami-Illinois? Yes. In fact, it was most likely given to Marquette at the Peoria villages on the Des Moines in the last week of June 1673. Marquette did collect as much geographical and demographical info as he could while stationed on Lake Superior, but it seems doubtful that the Ottawa had a name for the Omaha. Anything's possible. But it was probably at the Peoria villages that Marquette recorded < Maha > and in fact all the rest of the names for peoples living at that time in the Missouri watershed. Michael I'm > not aware of any of the relevant or even irrelevant Siouan languages > having any problems with initial vowels, short or long. > > JEK > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 22 23:07:12 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 18:07:12 -0500 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Koontz John E : > On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > > He acquired the tribal name for his map while exploring the Mississippi. > > There's no telling how many tribes the name might have filtered through > before > > getting to the Illinois Algonquians. > > True, but the simplest assumption is that it filtered along the Missouri > and up and down the Mississippi, or across Iowa-Minnesota-Wisconsin to the > Mississippi and Great Lakes to the places where he might most logically > have encountered it. We have a general idea what the list of languages > would have been, in these cases, and we know his main contact languages, > too. Of course, there are some anomalies like the mysterious Michigamea > language to warn us that we don't have all the cards from the original > deck. > > True, but it's also clear that the Marquette generation knew next to nothing about the Michigamea, who, rather than flee to Wisconsin or southeast Missouri, went down the Mississippi, as you know, when the Seneca and their buddies pushed their catastrophe to the west. The Illinois-French dictionary says that the Kaw knew the Michigamea by the name <8arakia>, which, as Bob pointed out a few years ago, is not analyzable in Siouan. However, this spelling is a dead-ringer for Old Illinois /waarahkia/ 'cave country person'. I've suggested in a piece of writing yet to be published that the term may apply to the lower Ohio. Michael > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 22 23:00:46 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 18:00:46 -0500 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: <005001c41037$51d8b9a0$1bb5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Quoting "R. Rankin" : > > I take it we can assume that Shawnee is not a particularly likely source > > for Marquette's Maha listing - more likely Ojibwe or Miami-Illinois? I'm > > not aware of any of the relevant or even irrelevant Siouan languages > > having any problems with initial vowels, short or long. > > He acquired the tribal name for his map while exploring the Mississippi. > There's no telling how many tribes the name might have filtered through > before > getting to the Illinois Algonquians. The Peoria and other MI groups, including the Moingwena and the Wea, were transmissippian (that is, *west* trans) inhabitants for a couple of generations, as were other MI groups off and on throughout the mid-1600s. It was, of course, a nice, safe residential option that satisfied the Iroquois, although it's not clear how these groups related to their Siouan neighbors, aside from the Missouria. Michael > > Bob > > > From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Tue Mar 23 00:04:57 2004 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:04:57 -0800 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: <1079996832.405f71a0ee9ca@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Interesting that the Seneca name for the Cherokee is oyata'ke:a', which means 'cave people'. The second half of it looks a little like waarahkia, but that must be a coincidence. Was there any particular area in which people lived in caves? --Wally > True, but it's also clear that the Marquette generation knew next to > nothing about the Michigamea, who, rather than flee to Wisconsin or > southeast Missouri, went down the Mississippi, as you know, when the > Seneca and their buddies pushed their catastrophe to the west. The > Illinois-French dictionary says that the Kaw knew the Michigamea by the > name <8arakia>, which, as Bob pointed out a few years ago, is not > analyzable in Siouan. However, this spelling is a dead-ringer for Old > Illinois /waarahkia/ 'cave country person'. I've suggested in a piece of > writing yet to be published that the term may apply to the lower Ohio. > > Michael From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 23 01:09:23 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 18:09:23 -0700 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: <1079996832.405f71a0ee9ca@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > True, but it's also clear that the Marquette generation knew next to nothing > about the Michigamea, who, rather than flee to Wisconsin or southeast > Missouri, went down the Mississippi, as you know, ... My imprecision. I only meant that the existence of the Michigamea in the general area in proto-historic times, speaking an apparently non-Algonquian language, suggests that we shouldn't too blandly assume that we know everything about the linguistic conduit transmitting names from the lower Missouri to Illinois, just because we know a fair bit about Algonquian and Siouan languages of the area that survived into the era of linguistic investigation. Of course, Michigamea may be a fairly garden variety Mississippi Valley language, but the fragments that survive are so limited and poorly glossed, and the context of the preservation so just plain weird that I hate to be very definite about that. (If anyone is wondering what on earth I am talking about, see http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/michigamea.htm.) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 23 01:27:02 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 18:27:02 -0700 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: <1079996123.405f6edb23fae@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > Only in the sense that initial short vowels come and go unpredictably > with tribe names in M-I (and elsewhere in central Algonquian). It can't > be normal phonological processes, since word-initial short vowels are > *not* deleted by sound law in old Illinois. In the modern (19th century) > language, yes. And then John Koontz said: > So perhaps the form Maha may owe more to sporadic deletion of short > initial vowels in Miami-Illinois To which Michael McCafferty replied: > Unlikely, in light of what Dave said. It's in the most recent records of the > language that we see this loss I guess I misunderstood David. I thought he meant that deletion of initial short vowels (which he said would have to be a-, not o-) was irregular - not rule governed - in Old Illinois ethnonyms but now is regular. So what he meant was that they were not deleted at all in Old Illinois (when we would expect amaha), but now they are deleted sporadically? I can certainly think of a few presumptive Old Illinois ethnonyms without initial a. Perhaps it's only some that have the a? So if Old Illinois speakers got their hands on omaha or umaha (to neglect nasality), they would normally be expected produce amaha? And we only know that they may perhaps have used maha because of Marquette's map, because otherwise their form for Omaha is unknown? So, in fact, we don't know if they substituted a, lopped off o or u themselves, borrowed a pre-lopped form, or, quite arbitrarily pronounced it Apalachicola, which Marquette only misheard as Maha, because the toothless old man who mentioned it mumbled? Drat! Out of curiosity, what is the modern MI form for Omaha? From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Mar 23 03:52:57 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 19:52:57 -0800 Subject: (O)maha Message-ID: > I guess I misunderstood David. I thought he meant that deletion of initial > short vowels (which he said would have to be a-, not o-) was irregular - not > rule governed - in Old Illinois ethnonyms but now is regular. No no no. What I meant is that ethnonyms in old Illinois all seem to lack word-initial short vowels where the sister languages (often) have them. Like Illinois /saakiiwa/ 'Sauk', but Ojibwe /ozaagii/, Shawnee /ho0aaki/, but Sauk /(o)0aakiiwa/. Or, another example, Illinois /$aaha/ 'Sioux', but Fox & Sauk /a$aaha/, Kickapoo /wasaaha/, but Shawnee /saha/. But aside from a few bird names which are probably onomatopoeic, these are the ONLY words in old Illinois that lack initial short vowels that the sister languages have. Illinois doesn't delete any other initial short vowels. In modern Miami & Peoris (circa 1800 & after), word-initial short vowels are often deleted, but not obligatorily. They seem to have been retained in careful speech, at least with the more fluent speakers. Either way, an old Illinois tribe name with a deleted vowel will always lack the vowel in the modern language. > So what he meant was that they were not deleted at all in Old Illinois (when > we would expect amaha), but now they are deleted sporadically? No, I'm just saying that word-initial short V retention is simply irregular with tribe names. They constitute an exception. But the sister languages do the same thing: note the missing initial vowels for the Shawnee name for the Sioux above, or the optional deletion of the vowel in the Sauks' name for themselves. > I can certainly think of a few presumptive Old Illinois ethnonyms without > initial a. Perhaps it's only some that have the a? In fact, all Illinois tribe names that I can find lack these short vowels. But there are several names that are only documented in the modern language, so the rule might have had exceptions. > So if Old Illinois speakers got their hands on omaha or umaha (to neglect > nasality), they would normally be expected produce amaha? Word-initial Proto-Algonquian */o/ (*/we/ really) becomes /a/ in all records of Illinois and Miami. So if it kept the V, it'd be */ama(a)ha/. But if Illinois made a policy of deleting those vowels from tribe names, it'd be */ma(a)ha/. > And we only know that they may perhaps have used maha because of Marquette's > map, because otherwise their form for Omaha is unknown? So, in fact, we don't > know if they substituted a, lopped off o or u themselves, borrowed a > pre-lopped form, or, quite arbitrarily pronounced it Apalachicola, which > Marquette only misheard as Maha, because the toothless old man who mentioned > it mumbled? > Drat! > Out of curiosity, what is the modern MI form for Omaha? None is attested, sadly. Dave From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Mar 23 11:16:02 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 06:16:02 -0500 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: <24638484.1079971497@[192.168.2.34]> Message-ID: Speculation upon speculation, the gateway to all delusion! But here goes: My sense is that the Michigamea, although as John has pointed out the evidence is muy thin, were Dhegiha speakers and, as the Old Illinois name for the Ohio River /akaansasiipi/ indicates, the Dhegiha were associated with the Ohio River at least by the second half of the 17th century, and they might have been the folks who build Angel Mounds and/or the Caborn-Welborn folks (although there is certainly no agreement on that among archaeologists, many of whom like to see all of Middle Mississippian as Muskogean. But anyway...). Right down the river from these sites (which are in extreme southwestern Indiana) one finds on the right side of the Ohio (going downstream) cave country (Cave-in-Rock of Walt Disney's Davy Crockett fame is one of these well known caves). But the hill country of southern Illinois near the Ohio has many a cave and rock shelter. Michael On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, Wallace Chafe wrote: > Interesting that the Seneca name for the Cherokee is oyata'ke:a', which > means 'cave people'. The second half of it looks a little like waarahkia, > but that must be a coincidence. Was there any particular area in which > people lived in caves? > --Wally > > > True, but it's also clear that the Marquette generation knew next to > > nothing about the Michigamea, who, rather than flee to Wisconsin or > > southeast Missouri, went down the Mississippi, as you know, when the > > Seneca and their buddies pushed their catastrophe to the west. The > > Illinois-French dictionary says that the Kaw knew the Michigamea by the > > name <8arakia>, which, as Bob pointed out a few years ago, is not > > analyzable in Siouan. However, this spelling is a dead-ringer for Old > > Illinois /waarahkia/ 'cave country person'. I've suggested in a piece of > > writing yet to be published that the term may apply to the lower Ohio. > > > > Michael > > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 23 16:43:43 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 09:43:43 -0700 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > > Out of curiosity, what is the modern MI form for Omaha? > > None is attested, sadly. Thanks, this was quite helpful! I guess in the context I would sum it up that the only attestation in any way, shape, or form of 'Omaha' in Miami-Illinois of any age at all is the maha(s) on the Marquette map, which is only presumably of MI origin. However, MI seems to delete short vowels from the initials of ethnonyms, pretty much across the board, even in the Old Illinois stage, and more recently also from other kinds of words, so that it is not implausible that omaha or umaha would be reduced to (?) maha. If it weren't reduced, one would expect (?) amaha, because of constraints on possible initial vowels. Maha, plural mahaaki, is attested in Shawnee. All of this allows us to suspect that the convention of referring to the Omahas as Mahas may have originated in Miami-Illinois, though there are a few missing links in the evidence. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 23 16:51:20 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 09:51:20 -0700 Subject: Dakota (Re: (O)maha) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > No no no. What I meant is that ethnonyms in old Illinois all seem to lack > word-initial short vowels where the sister languages (often) have them. Like > Illinois /saakiiwa/ 'Sauk', but Ojibwe /ozaagii/, Shawnee /ho0aaki/, but > Sauk /(o)0aakiiwa/. Or, another example, Illinois /$aaha/ 'Sioux', but Fox & > Sauk /a$aaha/, Kickapoo /wasaaha/, but Shawnee /saha/. And, to bring things full circle, this last is the usual Dhegiha, Ioway-Otoe, Winnebago, and maybe Mandan term for the Dakota or "Sioux." Cf. Omaha-Ponca s^aaN', though pretty much everybody else keeps the medial h. It is sometimes mistaken for the s^ahi(ya) 'some kind of Algonquian' term in the anthropological or archaeological literature, which is a tempting comparison, but there's no way obvious to me to connect *s^ahaN and *s^ahi other than by resemblance. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Tue Mar 23 17:04:46 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 11:04:46 -0600 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > All of this allows us to suspect that the convention of referring to the > Omahas as Mahas may have originated in Miami-Illinois, though there are a > few missing links in the evidence. So, did MI borrow a Dhegiha name and drop the o- in the process, by analogy with their various a-less ethnonyms? (I assume borrowing went in that direction, Siouan to Algonquian, in the case of the various s^ah-/sah- names.) Alan From rankin at ku.edu Tue Mar 23 17:06:04 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 11:06:04 -0600 Subject: (O)maha Message-ID: I don't have a view on the Michigamea but I tend to agree with the Ohio Valley hypothesis for Dhegiha origins for a variety of reasons, most of which I've expressed on the list at one time or another. I won't repeat here. Caves are prominent features of virtually all the major river bluffs of Mid-America. The Missouri bluffs and those along the lower Kansas (Kaw) river are riddled with them. They're widely used in the Kansas City area as warehouses since the temperature and humidity are very stable. And other caves are found along the MO. down to its mouth. I'd have to say though, that I don't know of any evidence of their use as abodes by Indian people in the historical period. FWIW. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Mccafferty" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 5:16 AM Subject: Re: (O)maha > > > Speculation upon speculation, the gateway to all delusion! > > But here goes: > > My sense is that the Michigamea, although as John has pointed out the > evidence is muy thin, were Dhegiha speakers and, as the Old Illinois > name for the Ohio River /akaansasiipi/ indicates, the Dhegiha were > associated with the Ohio River at least by the second half of the 17th > century, and they might have been the folks who build Angel Mounds and/or > the Caborn-Welborn folks (although there is certainly no agreement on > that among archaeologists, many of whom like to see all of Middle > Mississippian as Muskogean. But anyway...). Right down the river from > these sites (which are in extreme southwestern Indiana) one finds on the > right side of the Ohio (going downstream) cave country (Cave-in-Rock of > Walt Disney's Davy Crockett fame is one of these well known caves). But > the hill country of southern Illinois near the Ohio has many a cave and > rock shelter. > > Michael > > > On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, Wallace Chafe wrote: > > Interesting that the Seneca name for the Cherokee is oyata'ke:a', which > > means 'cave people'. The second half of it looks a little like waarahkia, > > but that must be a coincidence. Was there any particular area in which > > people lived in caves? > > --Wally > > > > > True, but it's also clear that the Marquette generation knew next to > > > nothing about the Michigamea, who, rather than flee to Wisconsin or > > > southeast Missouri, went down the Mississippi, as you know, when the > > > Seneca and their buddies pushed their catastrophe to the west. The > > > Illinois-French dictionary says that the Kaw knew the Michigamea by the > > > name <8arakia>, which, as Bob pointed out a few years ago, is not > > > analyzable in Siouan. However, this spelling is a dead-ringer for Old > > > Illinois /waarahkia/ 'cave country person'. I've suggested in a piece of > > > writing yet to be published that the term may apply to the lower Ohio. > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Mar 23 17:16:55 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 09:16:55 -0800 Subject: (O)maha Message-ID: That's what I think is most likely. Dave >> All of this allows us to suspect that the convention of referring to the >> Omahas as Mahas may have originated in Miami-Illinois, though there are a few >> missing links in the evidence. > So, did MI borrow a Dhegiha name and drop the o- in the process, by analogy > with their various a-less ethnonyms? From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 23 18:12:20 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 11:12:20 -0700 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: <40606E2E.1050601@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > So, did MI borrow a Dhegiha name and drop the o- in the process, by > analogy with their various a-less ethnonyms? I guess the answer as I understand it is, "Probably." However, the evidence is somewhat indirect. > (I assume borrowing went in that direction, Siouan to Algonquian, in the > case of the various s^ah-/sah- names.) It's pretty clear that the *maNhaN morpheme is Siouan, albeit restricted to Mississippi Valley south of Dakota. It's not widely attested as a free form, and the form umaNhaN ~ omaNhaN is rare outside of the ethnonym, but the meanings of the root and the form omaNhaN are clear. As far as *s^ahaN, which doesn't have any clear meaning other than 'Dakota person(s)', I'd guess the source was Siouan, since it seems more likely that Algonquian would have lost the nasal in borrowing the form than than Siouan would have innovated it. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Mar 23 18:19:26 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 10:19:26 -0800 Subject: Shaaha Message-ID: Moreover, /$aaha/ is a pretty abnormal word shape from the perspective of Algonquian (most Algonquian, anyway), but pretty normal for Siouan. Dave > As far as *s^ahaN, which doesn't have any clear meaning other than 'Dakota > person(s)', I'd guess the source was Siouan, since it seems more likely > that Algonquian would have lost the nasal in borrowing the form than than > Siouan would have innovated it. > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Mar 24 10:35:11 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 05:35:11 -0500 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just to drive this whole issue into the ground, here is the list of Marquette's tribe names for the more or less Missouri and Arkansas watersheds: Missouri River area: Otontanta, Pana, Maha, Pah8tet, Paniassa, Kansa, Moing8ena, Pe8area, 8chage, 8emess8rit Arkansas River area: Atotchasi, Matora, Akoroa, Papikaha, 8mam8eta, Tanika, Paniassa, Aiaichi, Metchigamea, Akansea If anyone knows, I'm interested in "Pah8tet". Many of these show up Parks and DeMaillie's volume of HNAI, so perhaps I should check that first. Michael On Tue, 23 Mar 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > > > Out of curiosity, what is the modern MI form for Omaha? > > > > None is attested, sadly. > > Thanks, this was quite helpful! I guess in the context I would sum it up > that the only attestation in any way, shape, or form of 'Omaha' in > Miami-Illinois of any age at all is the maha(s) on the Marquette map, > which is only presumably of MI origin. However, MI seems to delete short > vowels from the initials of ethnonyms, pretty much across the board, even > in the Old Illinois stage, and more recently also from other kinds of > words, so that it is not implausible that omaha or umaha would be reduced > to (?) maha. > > If it weren't reduced, one would expect (?) amaha, because of constraints > on possible initial vowels. > > Maha, plural mahaaki, is attested in Shawnee. > > All of this allows us to suspect that the convention of referring to the > Omahas as Mahas may have originated in Miami-Illinois, though there are a > few missing links in the evidence. > > JEK > > > From rankin at ku.edu Wed Mar 24 14:50:57 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 08:50:57 -0600 Subject: (O)maha Message-ID: > If anyone knows, I'm interested in "Pah8tet". Many of these show up Parks > and DeMaillie's volume of HNAI, so perhaps I should check that first. That would be "baxoje" -- the Ioway -- but without the voicing of the initial unaspirated /p/ to [b] and the palatalization of the unaspirated /t/ to [j] found today. Bob From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Mar 24 15:00:38 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 09:00:38 -0600 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Michael Mccafferty wrote: > If anyone knows, I'm interested in "Pah8tet". Many of these show up Parks > and DeMaillie's volume of HNAI, so perhaps I should check that first. Besides the cites in HAI, this is what I've got: PAHOJA NEWS drafting, etym. From the Iowa self-designation p(h)axodz^e; cf. Otoe pa:xodz^e and related Dhegiha names. note: the meanings 'gray noses/heads' (with initial p aspirated) and 'gray snow' (initial unaspirated) are phonetically permissible if not semantically convincing. [based on emails from John Koontz and Robt. Rankin, 3-4 Mar. 99, and on Hdbk. N. Amer. Indians XIII. (2001) 446/1] --- 1673 J. MARQUETTE ms. map of Mississippi River reproduced in Coll. Hist. Soc. Wisconsin XVI. (1902) fol. p. 88 Pah8tet 1844 J. H. CARLETON Prairie Logbooks (1983) 66 The Indian name of this tribe is Pa-ha-cae; literally, Dirty Faces. They neither call themselves Ioways, nor are they called so by their neighbours. ahh 04/2002 1853 H. R. SCHOOLCRAFT Indian Tribes III. 262 The Iowas are, among themselves, and also among the neighboring tribes, called "Pa hu cha," or "Dusty nose." When they separated from the first Indian tribe, or family, to hunt game, their first location was near the mouth of a river, where there were large sand bars, from which the wind blew quantities of sand or dust upon their faces 1858 H. LUDEWIG Literature Amer. aboriginal Languages 140 OTO... They are divided into Otoes and Pahoja. Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 24 18:06:38 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 11:06:38 -0700 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: <4061A296.8090004@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > 1844 J. H. CARLETON Prairie Logbooks (1983) 66 > The Indian name of this tribe is Pa-ha-cae; literally, Dirty Faces. They > neither call themselves Ioways, nor are they called so by their neighbours. > ahh 04/2002 The Iowa(y) name is from French Aiouez, which is is probably from Dakotan Ayuxwa or Ayuxwe or Ayuxba. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 24 18:30:33 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 11:30:33 -0700 Subject: Lewis & Clark Phonetic Alphabet (Re: (O)maha) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The Iowa(y) name is from French Aiouez, which is is probably from Dakotan > Ayuxwa or Ayuxwe or Ayuxba. Incidentally, this is a good example of the syllable spelling approach to rendering "foreign" words in American English. Aiouez (which is pretty close to the Dakotan Ayuxwe variant) has apparently been rendered in English as I-o-wa, literally or conceptualy, pronounced [ayowe]. More recently the desyllabified version is pronounced [ayow] following majority conventions for sequences like Iowa. The spelling Ioway is intended to restore or preserve the older, more correct pronunciation, which is no longer correct (or is at least very regional) for the state of Iowa. Similar repronunciations of syllabic transcriptions according to desyllabified norms account for things like Nebraska [nbrsk] for ne-bras-ka maybe rendering Ioway-Otoe niN braske (or niN brake or niN brahke). (It might possibly render Omaha-Ponca niN bdhaska, but -a tends to be -e (ay) in early syllable spellings, and the e for i (ee) gives things away. If e is [i], a tends to be [e], and only a in closed syllables, like bras or kar is [a].)) On the other hand, the French transcription Niobrara - for niN obrara (IO) or niN obdhadha (OP) - is now pronounced [nayobreir] as far as I know. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Mar 24 18:41:20 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 10:41:20 -0800 Subject: (O)maha Message-ID: By the 1800's, that's the standard Algonquian name for the Ioways as well; for example, Miami aayohoowia, Shawnee haayawhhowe, and Sauk a:yohowe:wa, and Menominee ayo:ho:wE:w. I suspect that Illinois speakers were among the first of the central Algonquians to encounter many of these Siouan tribes, since in the oldest records, Illinois often has Siouan names for these tribes that are later replaced by more normal 'Algonquian' names. in addition to these 'Ioway' names, another example is the name for the Hochunks; in Illinois, they're variously known as <8ndakia> or <8ndankia>, which is clearly the Siouan name, but by the 1820's on they're only known by the Miami-Illinois name wiinipiikwa. Dave > On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: >> 1844 J. H. CARLETON Prairie Logbooks (1983) 66 >> The Indian name of this tribe is Pa-ha-cae; literally, Dirty Faces. They >> neither call themselves Ioways, nor are they called so by their neighbours. >> ahh 04/2002 > > The Iowa(y) name is from French Aiouez, which is is probably from Dakotan > Ayuxwa or Ayuxwe or Ayuxba. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 24 19:58:02 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 12:58:02 -0700 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > I suspect that Illinois speakers were among the first of the central > Algonquians to encounter many of these Siouan tribes, since in the oldest > records, Illinois often has Siouan names for these tribes that are later > replaced by more normal 'Algonquian' names. in addition to these 'Ioway' > names, another example is the name for the Hochunks; in Illinois, they're > variously known as <8ndakia> or <8ndankia>, which is clearly the Siouan > name, but by the 1820's on they're only known by the Miami-Illinois name > wiinipiikwa. It's interesting that the "Siouan" name seems to be based on something like (h)u(N)daNk-, i.e., maybe something like Omaha hu'ttaNge, instead of Winnebago hooc^aNk. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Mar 24 20:24:12 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 12:24:12 -0800 Subject: (O)maha Message-ID: Or Dakota /ho'taNke/, or Iowa-Otoe . Either the name was not borowed from Winnebago directly, or it was borrowed from Winnebago before that language had palatalized /t/ to /c/. We're talking at least 300 years ago, so the latter idea seems entirely possible. Dave >> I suspect that Illinois speakers were among the first of the central >> Algonquians to encounter many of these Siouan tribes, since in the oldest >> records, Illinois often has Siouan names for these tribes that are later >> replaced by more normal 'Algonquian' names. in addition to these 'Ioway' >> names, another example is the name for the Hochunks; in Illinois, they're >> variously known as <8ndakia> or <8ndankia>, which is clearly the Siouan name, >> but by the 1820's on they're only known by the Miami-Illinois name >> wiinipiikwa. > It's interesting that the "Siouan" name seems to be based on something like > (h)u(N)daNk-, i.e., maybe something like Omaha hu'ttaNge, instead of Winnebago > hooc^aNk. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 24 22:23:30 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 15:23:30 -0700 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > Or Dakota /ho'taNke/, or Iowa-Otoe . Although those have th (aspirated t). I thought Dhegiha -tt- ~ -ht- might be more likely to yield -d-. I'm not sure about the final e in the Dakotan form. Maybe -a? IO tunge is probably thaNe ~ thaNe, depending on dialect, as this is what happens to forms like *-thaNka in IO. Nobody know what this would have been in Michigamea, of course ... :-). > Either the name was not borowed from Winnebago directly, or it was > borrowed from Winnebago before that language had palatalized /t/ to /c/. > We're talking at least 300 years ago, so the latter idea seems entirely > possible. True, though I think Winnebago has had c^ in forms attested for about the last 200 of those years. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Mar 24 23:09:49 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 18:09:49 -0500 Subject: (O)maha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At little ethnohistory may be useful. I don't know. Good archaeologists now at the cutting edge of our knowledge of the late prehistoric settlement patterns in the lower Midwest see the Miami-Illinois as coming out of the general pool of Algonquians situated near the west end of Lake Erie before ca. 1640. There's still a lot of foot-shuffling about where particular groups were, but there are, for example, strong correlations between what we know is proto-historic/early historic Illinois pottery and pottery (known as Ft. Meigs applique') made in the Maumee River valley in the 1500s. The gist is that the Iroqouian conflagration that swept through Huronia as well as south of Lake Erie in the 1600s pushed the Miami-Illinois and other folks (Sauk, Meskwaki, Kickapoo, Mascouten) from around the western end of Lake Erie either 1) across the Mississippi or 2) into Wisconsin. Now, Bob Hall, a good archaeologist, places the Winnebago at the south end of Lake Michigan in late prehistory. In addition archaeologists at the Glenn Black Lab at Indiana University have been finding, in late prehistory, interesting sites in western Indiana that suggest a Siouan/Algonquian interface. In fact, a Siouan presence at Strawtown on the upper White River of Indiana is common knowledge around here. Now, who these Siouans might have been is a good question. They could have been Winnebago coming down from the Kankakee area to hunt or Missouri valley Siouans chasing bison, which had first appeared in the Indiana area only in the 1400s. It should be noted, too, that the 1400s were a horrendous time to be alive in the Midwest. It appears that mostly people were dead. Michael On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > > Or Dakota /ho'taNke/, or Iowa-Otoe . > > Although those have th (aspirated t). I thought Dhegiha -tt- ~ -ht- might > be more likely to yield -d-. I'm not sure about the final e in the > Dakotan form. Maybe -a? IO tunge is probably thaNe ~ thaNe, > depending on dialect, as this is what happens to forms like *-thaNka in > IO. Nobody know what this would have been in Michigamea, of course ... > :-). > > > Either the name was not borowed from Winnebago directly, or it was > > borrowed from Winnebago before that language had palatalized /t/ to /c/. > > We're talking at least 300 years ago, so the latter idea seems entirely > > possible. > > True, though I think Winnebago has had c^ in forms attested for about the > last 200 of those years. > > > From rankin at ku.edu Thu Mar 25 01:10:38 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 19:10:38 -0600 Subject: (O)maha Message-ID: > In fact, a Siouan > presence at Strawtown on the upper White River of Indiana is common > knowledge around here. > Now, who these Siouans might have been is a good question. See my paper on Tutelo loan of the word for 'three/eight' into Illinois Algonquian in IJAL. It's pretty clear the Tutelo, Saponi, Moneton group came from somewhere in the north drainage area of the Ohio. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Mar 27 07:32:49 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 00:32:49 -0700 Subject: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Mar 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Speculation upon speculation, the gateway to all delusion! > My sense is that the Michigamea, although as John has pointed out the > evidence is muy thin, were Dhegiha speakers and, as the Old Illinois > name for the Ohio River /akaansasiipi/ indicates, the Dhegiha were > associated with the Ohio River at least by the second half of the 17th > century, ... Granted that there are only four words, it looks about halfway between Dhegiha and Ioway-Otoe. I might as well provide the forms: indage' ouai panis 'je suis indigne de vivre, je ne me'rite plus de porter le doux nom de pe're' (expressing guilt as to treatment of a son) 'I am unworthy to live, I no longer am worthy of the sweet name of father' tikalabe', houe' ni que' 'nous te croyons, tu as raison' 'we believe you, you are right' My suggestions for rendering these are derived from some insights of Bob Rankin (at least 'father' and 'think', as I recall, and maybe 'lack' as well), and come down to this: in- dage' ouai- pani- s i(N)- da'j^e we'- b-niN= s his father negative- I-am= negative 'I am not his father.' ti- kala- be' houe'- nigue' h-ti'-klaN= be we'- niNge= (s) you- think=plural negative- it-lacks= negative 'Your thinking is not lacking.' You could compare these with made up pseudo-Omaha-Ponca sentences: *i- dhadi b-dhiN=az^i his father I am negative *s^- nigdhaN=bi dhiNga= z^i you think plural it lacks negative There is no OP verb *dhigdhaN 'to think' that I know of, but OP has i'dhigdhaN 'to decide, to plan', and its nominalization we'dhigdhaN 'decision, plan, mind'. This has a dative i'gidhigdhaN 'to rule', and a compound miN'=dhigdhaN 'to think of women'. The form dhigdhaN' 'to marry' is probably unrelated. Note that OP requires the auxiliary maN 'I do' between the verb and the negative in the first person. I do not believe that either idhadi dhiN 'to be one's father' or dhigdhaN dhiNge 'to lack thinking' (or its negative) are idiomatic in any sense in OP, either. These examples simply show what hypothetically cognate OP forms would look like. In essence it is suggested that Michigamea (or Bossu's pidgin Michigamea) has the following elements: i(N)daj^e < *i(N)-tate 'his father'. Here iNdaj^e is more plausible as 'my father', or as an error for *idaj^e or *iraj^e or whatever the third person should have been. Or perhaps we should envision something like 'My father' [he-says] I-am-not [treated like that]. Compare OP iNdadi < *iN-tati 'my father', dhiadi < *ri-ati 'your father', idhadi < *i-(r)ati 'his father' (typical of Dhegiha), or IO hiNda(N)j^e < *iN-ta(N)te 'my father', naN'j^e < *r(i)-a(N)te 'your father', aNj^e < *(i-)a(N)te 'his father'. Note that IO hiNda(N)j^e 'my father' is archaic. Current is suppletive hiNka. *riN (*niN?) 'to be', attested in a first person bniN (bliN?) 'I am'. Compare OP dhiN 'be (of some kind)', bdhiN 'I am', (s^)niN 'you are', *dhiN 'he is', or IO n[y]iN 'be possessed of a quality'. I'm not sure what the inflection of this IO verb is. *riklaN (< *rukraN) 'to think, to engage in mental activity', attested in a second person plural (h)tikla(N)=be (or =bi) 'you-all think; your thinking'. Compare OP i'dhigdhaN < *i-ru-kraN 'to decide', inflected i'bdhigdhaN 'I decide', i'(s^)nigdhaN 'you decide', but notice Quapaw inflects di- < *ru- as p-di- 'I ...', t-ti- 'you ...'. Reduction of *s^- 'you (syncopated)' to preaspiration is a common tendency across Dhegiha, whether it leads to s^-ni- > h-ni- > ni- as in OP, or to *h-di- > t-ti- as in Quapaw. IO has rugra(N)' < *ru-kraN 'to consider, judge, think on, think that', inflected (ha)du'graN 'I think', (ra)sdu'graN 'you think'. ni(N)ge < *riNke' 'to lack'. Compare OP dhiNge' 'to lack', IO niNge, niNnye 'there is no'. In addition there is a negative that seems to be prefixal we- in one case, and circumfixal we-...-s in another. Perhaps the final -s is simply missing in error in the first case. Siouan negatives exhibit suffixed elements *=s^(i) and *=riN, sometimes separate, sometimes together, in one order or another, cf. Da =s^-niN but Mandan =riN-x ~ =xi (where x is an augmentive grade of the the fricative set s/s^/x). Dakotan has =s^(i) as an adversative enclitic 'also, indeed'. Dhegiha has *=z^i only as negative, with intrusive maN 'I do' in the first person. IO has =s^kun(y)iN. However, Winnebago has =niN 'negative' (and =z^i 'at least'), and =s^kuNniN as a dubitative. While the IO/Wi *=s^kuN-riN sequence probably includes the negative element *=riN, it may be that the older reading of *=s^kuN-riN was dubitative, and that the IO negative is an old dubitative. That is, perhaps Winnebago is more conservative than IO in this aspect of its morphology. Siouan negatives also sometimes exhibit a prefixal element combined with the suffix to make a negative circumfix. These prefixal elements are not cognate, but Mandan in particular exhibits wa-, with which compare the we- found in Michigamea. My inclination without "Michigamea" is to see the *=s^i or *=Si element in Siouan negatives as a sort of emphatic, not unlike French pas, etc., or English not (originally). This leaves *=riN, sometimes missing, as in Dhegiha as the negative element. If it is simply a form of *riN 'be', then perhaps the original negative is missing entirely, as in modern collquial French ... pas, etc., missing original ne, or, for that matter, modern English ... not, missing original prefixed ne, too. What Michigamea might contribute is a suspicion that the prefixal we- (Michigamea?), wa- (Mandan) represent the original negative. Not that we really need another wa- prefix, or even another we- prefix. I don't think any of this is inherently unreasonable, but even without getting into the somewhat odd contexts Bossu provides in his annecdotes, and other issues of that nature, these are plainly a bit difficult to be sure of. It looks Siouan to me, and it doesn't look Algonquian to the Algonquianists, but maybe it's really just mush. If it is Siouan, I hope I've shown that while Dhegiha generally, and on some points, Quapaw specifically, are useful in interpeting it, so is Ioway-Otoe, and the negative is really not at all like a Dhegiha negative. It's at least as much like a Mandan negative as a Dhegiha one, and otherwise it's at best reminiscent of the general character of a Siouan negative, especially if we concentrate on the suffixal -s, comparing it to *s^(i) and more or less ignore the prefixal we-. JEK From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sun Mar 28 18:28:15 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 20:28:15 +0200 Subject: oak (-tree) Message-ID: Can anybody tell me whether or not an expression for 'oak (-tree)' exists in Dakota/Lakota? Up to now I couldn't find any. Had it been left behind in the forests of their earlier history and been forgotten?? In Algonquian this word seems to still exist (although I can't remember it). Alfred From jfu at centrum.cz Sun Mar 28 13:00:51 2004 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 15:00:51 +0200 Subject: oak (-tree) In-Reply-To: <4067193F.6070409@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: > Can anybody tell me whether or not an expression for 'oak (-tree)' > exists in Dakota/Lakota? Up to now I couldn't find any. Riggs' Dakota dictionary gives: u'tahu = an oak tree Identical entry is given by Buechel and Deloria in their Lakota dictionaries. Additionaly Buechel gives: itu'hu = the black oak and Riggs: usku'yeca hu' = the white oak, Quercus alba Jan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Mar 28 19:25:07 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:25:07 -0700 Subject: oak (-tree) In-Reply-To: <4067193F.6070409@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: Actually, by chance we had discussion of oak terms not too long ago, probably just before Alfred joined the list. They were of particular interest because they sometimes involve multiple morphemes for 'tree'. This discussion can be retrieved from the archives of the Siouan list maintained at the LinguistList site (http://www.linguistlist.org). The address for searching the Siouan list (a good candidate for a favorite or even a desktop link) is: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=siouan This turns up, for example: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0401&L=siouan&P=R3934 http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0401&L=siouan&P=R4413 Incidentally, if searching for plant terms in Buechel in the English index, look under one of the "list" entries, e.g., "tree" in this case. I keep a list of lists on p. 660 for those cases where I forget the keyword Buechel uses! I also recommend Bruce Ingham's English to Teton dictionary (and Williamson's English to Santee). At various points Jan Ullrich and Connie Chmelnitsky have had online versions of the dictionary they are working on. Gilmore's Uses of Plants by the Indians of the Missouri River Region is in print I think, and available from the University of Nebraska Press. It looks like it's about $10 through various online vendors. I'm not sure how accessible this makes it outside of North America, however. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Mar 28 19:34:01 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 13:34:01 -0600 Subject: oak (-tree) In-Reply-To: <4067193F.6070409@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: Alfred W. T?ting wrote: > Can anybody tell me whether or not an expression for 'oak (-tree)' > exists in Dakota/Lakota? Up to now I couldn't find any. Had it been left > behind in the forests of their earlier history and been forgotten?? In > Algonquian this word seems to still exist (although I can't remember it). Ojibway mittikomi:z^ < mittikw- 'tree, stick, wood' + -mi:z^ '(nut- or berry-bearing) tree' Alan From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Mar 29 04:10:14 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:10:14 -0600 Subject: St. Louis? Message-ID: I'm wondering about the name for St. Louis in native languages. For OP, Dorsey has Ppa'hi-z^i'de, "Red Neck", as a term for the inhabitants. Fletcher and La Flesche give Ppahi'-z^ide ttoNwoN, "Red Hair town", with the note "Referring to the color of Governor Clark's hair". I've had it in mind that the latter explanation was confirmed by the Osage form, but I can't seem to find a reference. Can anyone point me to further information on this? I'd be especially interested knowing the name for it in Osage, Kaw, Iowa-Oto, or even Algonquian languages. The town was founded by French traders in 1764 and had its glory days as a special entity prior to its acquisition by the Americans in 1804. It seems odd to me that the Omaha or anyone else would have waited until the American period to name it after Governor Clark's hair. Thanks! Rory From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Mon Mar 29 06:22:43 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:22:43 +0200 Subject: oak (-tree) Message-ID: Thanks to all you folks for the input! My fault to being discouraged when - about a year ago and still unfamiliar with Buechel's dictionary - I couldn't retrieve this entry, and didn't try it again later :( (maybe, because it felt quite plausible that the D. had dropped this word). It seems that the word _u'tahu_ is composed of _u'ta_ - the hazelnut; acorns - and _hu_ - stem - (-> tree). _itu'hu_ maybe is 'wild tree' (wildly grown stem). Were there any trees cultivated by the Dakotas?? I also am wondering whether the expression for _itu'hu_ - a stone used to break bones or pound berries; the frontal (B) is nothing but a homophone. Again, many thanks! Alfred From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Mar 29 17:08:40 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:08:40 -0800 Subject: St. Louis? Message-ID: All I know about the name for St. Louis in Algonquian is that the Shawnee name for it is peenhko (Gatschet's ), and the Mesquakie form is pe:ko:neki (a locative). These are apparently borrowings from French 'Pain Court'. However, it's been so long since I thought about this, I can't remember at the moment why it was named after 'Pain Court', or what 'Pain Court' really meant. I think somewhere there's an article that explains this. Bob, does this ring a bell? Dave Costa > > I'm wondering about the name for St. Louis in native languages. For OP, > Dorsey has Ppa'hi-z^i'de, "Red Neck", as a term for the inhabitants. > Fletcher and La Flesche give Ppahi'-z^ide ttoNwoN, "Red Hair town", with > the note "Referring to the color of Governor Clark's hair". I've had it in > mind that the latter explanation was confirmed by the Osage form, but I > can't seem to find a reference. Can anyone point me to further information > on this? I'd be especially interested knowing the name for it in Osage, > Kaw, Iowa-Oto, or even Algonquian languages. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 29 17:56:59 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:56:59 -0500 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Pain Court means "short bread". There is a folk-etymology roaming around (perhaps in the article referenced below) that says that the term means "short of bread". But that's just what it is. The name means "short bread". I believe the name occurs elsewhere in the Francophone word, maybe in Ontario. It is not a surname as far as I know. Michael On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > All I know about the name for St. Louis in Algonquian is that the Shawnee > name for it is peenhko (Gatschet's ), and the Mesquakie form is > pe:ko:neki (a locative). These are apparently borrowings from French 'Pain > Court'. However, it's been so long since I thought about this, I can't > remember at the moment why it was named after 'Pain Court', or what 'Pain > Court' really meant. I think somewhere there's an article that explains > this. Bob, does this ring a bell? > > Dave Costa > > > > > I'm wondering about the name for St. Louis in native languages. For OP, > > Dorsey has Ppa'hi-z^i'de, "Red Neck", as a term for the inhabitants. > > Fletcher and La Flesche give Ppahi'-z^ide ttoNwoN, "Red Hair town", with > > the note "Referring to the color of Governor Clark's hair". I've had it in > > mind that the latter explanation was confirmed by the Osage form, but I > > can't seem to find a reference. Can anyone point me to further information > > on this? I'd be especially interested knowing the name for it in Osage, > > Kaw, Iowa-Oto, or even Algonquian languages. > > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Mar 29 18:11:51 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:11:51 -0800 Subject: St. Louis? Message-ID: Yes, but WHY was St. Louis called 'short bread'? That was what I was wondering. David > Pain Court means "short bread". > > There is a folk-etymology roaming around (perhaps in the article > referenced below) that says that the term means "short of bread". > But that's just what it is. > > The name means "short bread". I believe the name occurs elsewhere in > the Francophone word, maybe in Ontario. It is not a surname as far as I > know. > > Michael > > > > On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > >> All I know about the name for St. Louis in Algonquian is that the Shawnee >> name for it is peenhko (Gatschet's ), and the Mesquakie form is >> pe:ko:neki (a locative). These are apparently borrowings from French 'Pain >> Court'. However, it's been so long since I thought about this, I can't >> remember at the moment why it was named after 'Pain Court', or what 'Pain >> Court' really meant. I think somewhere there's an article that explains >> this. Bob, does this ring a bell? >> >> Dave Costa >> >> > >> > I'm wondering about the name for St. Louis in native languages. For OP, >> > Dorsey has Ppa'hi-z^i'de, "Red Neck", as a term for the inhabitants. >> > Fletcher and La Flesche give Ppahi'-z^ide ttoNwoN, "Red Hair town", with >> > the note "Referring to the color of Governor Clark's hair". I've had it in >> > mind that the latter explanation was confirmed by the Osage form, but I >> > can't seem to find a reference. Can anyone point me to further information >> > on this? I'd be especially interested knowing the name for it in Osage, >> > Kaw, Iowa-Oto, or even Algonquian languages. >> > > > > From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Mon Mar 29 18:19:34 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 19:19:34 +0100 Subject: St. Louis? Message-ID: Dear all: Dave's thinking of the Allan Taylor article in the Festschrift for Christoph Wolfart, which deals with the origin of the word for 'Mexican; in Arapaho and Gros Ventre. Anthony >>> pankihtamwa at earthlink.net 29/03/2004 18:08:40 >>> All I know about the name for St. Louis in Algonquian is that the Shawnee name for it is peenhko (Gatschet's ), and the Mesquakie form is pe:ko:neki (a locative). These are apparently borrowings from French 'Pain Court'. However, it's been so long since I thought about this, I can't remember at the moment why it was named after 'Pain Court', or what 'Pain Court' really meant. I think somewhere there's an article that explains this. Bob, does this ring a bell? Dave Costa > > I'm wondering about the name for St. Louis in native languages. For OP, > Dorsey has Ppa'hi-z^i'de, "Red Neck", as a term for the inhabitants. > Fletcher and La Flesche give Ppahi'-z^ide ttoNwoN, "Red Hair town", with > the note "Referring to the color of Governor Clark's hair". I've had it in > mind that the latter explanation was confirmed by the Osage form, but I > can't seem to find a reference. Can anyone point me to further information > on this? I'd be especially interested knowing the name for it in Osage, > Kaw, Iowa-Oto, or even Algonquian languages. > From Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc Mon Mar 29 18:22:19 2004 From: Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc (Louis Garcia) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:22:19 -0600 Subject: Crow/ Hidatsa Videos In-Reply-To: <003201c406e9$254bd590$d200c90a@voced1> Message-ID: Hi gang: Last year I posted a message about the Hidatsa video which combined sign language and Hidatsa words. I just happened to see one video as it was being shown informally in a vacant room at last years AIHEC. This year at AIHEC (American Indian Higher Education Conference)held at Billings Montana, last week. Dr. Lanny Realbird presented the Crow and Hidatsa language videos. Anyone interested contact: Dr. Lanny Real Bird Little Big Horn College P.O. Box 370 Crow Agency, Mt 59022 lanny at lbhc.cc.mt.us He also had a video used to introduce the Crow culture to new educators employed at local schools. Aside from the clan information the video was relevant to most other plains tribes. I ordered a copy to show here at Spirit Lake. Toksta ake, Louie From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Mar 29 18:44:31 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:44:31 -0600 Subject: St. Louis? Message-ID: Well, the first part of that certainly looks promising. Could pain have been pronounced /paiN/ then, or would it be clearly /peN:/ ? If the former, it should be easy for an Omaha speaker to reinterpret it as pahiN' or pa'hi. The second part throws me though. I don't see how to get from Fr. court, 'short', to OP z^i'de, 'red', either by reinterpretation of the sound sequence or by calquing. Is there any possibility that the 't' in court would have been pronounced back then? Thanks for the comments! Rory Michael Mccafferty cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: St. Louis? owner-siouan at lists.c olorado.edu 03/29/2004 11:56 AM Please respond to siouan Pain Court means "short bread". There is a folk-etymology roaming around (perhaps in the article referenced below) that says that the term means "short of bread". But that's just what it is. The name means "short bread". I believe the name occurs elsewhere in the Francophone word, maybe in Ontario. It is not a surname as far as I know. Michael On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > All I know about the name for St. Louis in Algonquian is that the Shawnee > name for it is peenhko (Gatschet's ), and the Mesquakie form is > pe:ko:neki (a locative). These are apparently borrowings from French 'Pain > Court'. However, it's been so long since I thought about this, I can't > remember at the moment why it was named after 'Pain Court', or what 'Pain > Court' really meant. I think somewhere there's an article that explains > this. Bob, does this ring a bell? > > Dave Costa > > > > > I'm wondering about the name for St. Louis in native languages. For OP, > > Dorsey has Ppa'hi-z^i'de, "Red Neck", as a term for the inhabitants. > > Fletcher and La Flesche give Ppahi'-z^ide ttoNwoN, "Red Hair town", with > > the note "Referring to the color of Governor Clark's hair". I've had it in > > mind that the latter explanation was confirmed by the Osage form, but I > > can't seem to find a reference. Can anyone point me to further information > > on this? I'd be especially interested knowing the name for it in Osage, > > Kaw, Iowa-Oto, or even Algonquian languages. > > From rankin at ku.edu Mon Mar 29 18:51:58 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:51:58 -0600 Subject: St. Louis? Message-ID: > Is there any possibility that the 't' in court would have been pronounced back then? No, I don't think so, although, in Provencal dialects or others, anything is possible. Catalans in Rousillon might pronounce it even today. It is maintained in the feminine, of course. Someone may have cataloged the parts of France represented in the various expeditions, but I'd expect there were quite a few voyageurs whose origins are unknown. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Mon Mar 29 18:56:39 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:56:39 -0600 Subject: St. Louis? Message-ID: > I can't remember at the moment why it was named after 'Pain Court', or what 'Pain Court' really meant. I think somewhere there's an article that explains this. Bob, does this ring a bell? 'Fraid not, unless it's a reference to SHORT-BREAD. But I would expect that expression to have originated in English. (Do the French call baking fats by the name "shortening"?). One of the OED guys on the list could attack that angle. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Mon Mar 29 19:08:10 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:08:10 -0600 Subject: oak (-tree) Message-ID: > Actually, by chance we had discussion of oak terms not too long ago, probably just before Alfred joined the list. They were of particular interest because they sometimes involve multiple morphemes for 'tree'. This discussion can be retrieved from the archives of the Siouan list maintained at the LinguistList site (http://www.linguistlist.org). The various 'oak' words in the Siouan languages tend to have to do with either ACORNS or basketry (using oaken slats/strips). A number of terms have areal distribution, existing in both Siouan and Muskogean-speaking territory. Gilmore is a good place to start, and, yes, there is a fairly recent reprinting. Bob From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Mar 29 19:18:39 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:18:39 -0600 Subject: St. Louis? Message-ID: > Could pain have been pronounced /paiN/ then, or would it > be clearly /peN:/ ? If the former, it should be easy > for an Omaha speaker to reinterpret it as pahiN' or > pa'hi. > > The second part throws me though. I don't see how to > get from Fr. court, 'short', to OP z^i'de, 'red', either > by reinterpretation of the sound sequence or by calquing. > Is there any possibility that the 't' in court would have > been pronounced back then? Well here's an outside possibility! There is an entry in Francis La Flesche's Osage dictionary: zhiN'da, it was not. I've never run across this in OP, and there doesn't seem to be any elaboration on it in the Osage dictionary either. So my highly dubious speculation is: Fr. pain court "short (of?) bread" => Os. paiN zhiNda "the bread was not" => OP pa'hi zhi'de "red neck" pahiN' zhide "red hair" the latter interpretation coming into vogue with Governor Clark. This speculation depends on favorable answers to three questions: 1. Is the folk interpretation, pain court = "short of bread", really possible in French? 2. What was the actual meaning and use of Os. zhiNda ? 3. Did the Osage borrow Fr. pain as /paiN/ to mean bread? In OP, all things bread, dough and wheat are covered by wamuske. In the Osage dictionary, I see this word used only once, in reference to a wheat field. I don't see any reference to "bread" in the dictionary, which might suggest that it was a loan word ignored by La Flesche. Rory From rankin at ku.edu Mon Mar 29 19:35:43 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:35:43 -0600 Subject: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) Message-ID: I really can't take credit for any of John's very thorough analysis. I may have noted the resemblance of one or two of the words, but he's the one who has done all the work. I don't know what to make of Michigamea, such as it is. It's too bad we can't come up with just a few more words/phrases. That could be the clincher. The "negative" we- looks much more like the Algonquian negative wi(i) than anything Siouan, but I'm not in a position to say much more, I'm afraid. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Koontz John E [mailto:John.Koontz at colorado.edu] Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 1:33 AM To: Siouan List Subject: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) On Tue, 23 Mar 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Speculation upon speculation, the gateway to all delusion! > My sense is that the Michigamea, although as John has pointed out the > evidence is muy thin, were Dhegiha speakers and, as the Old Illinois > name for the Ohio River /akaansasiipi/ indicates, the Dhegiha were > associated with the Ohio River at least by the second half of the 17th > century, ... Granted that there are only four words, it looks about halfway between Dhegiha and Ioway-Otoe. I might as well provide the forms: indage' ouai panis 'je suis indigne de vivre, je ne me'rite plus de porter le doux nom de pe're' (expressing guilt as to treatment of a son) 'I am unworthy to live, I no longer am worthy of the sweet name of father' tikalabe', houe' ni que' 'nous te croyons, tu as raison' 'we believe you, you are right' My suggestions for rendering these are derived from some insights of Bob Rankin (at least 'father' and 'think', as I recall, and maybe 'lack' as well), and come down to this: in- dage' ouai- pani- s i(N)- da'j^e we'- b-niN= s his father negative- I-am= negative 'I am not his father.' ti- kala- be' houe'- nigue' h-ti'-klaN= be we'- niNge= (s) you- think=plural negative- it-lacks= negative 'Your thinking is not lacking.' You could compare these with made up pseudo-Omaha-Ponca sentences: *i- dhadi b-dhiN=az^i his father I am negative *s^- nigdhaN=bi dhiNga= z^i you think plural it lacks negative There is no OP verb *dhigdhaN 'to think' that I know of, but OP has i'dhigdhaN 'to decide, to plan', and its nominalization we'dhigdhaN 'decision, plan, mind'. This has a dative i'gidhigdhaN 'to rule', and a compound miN'=dhigdhaN 'to think of women'. The form dhigdhaN' 'to marry' is probably unrelated. Note that OP requires the auxiliary maN 'I do' between the verb and the negative in the first person. I do not believe that either idhadi dhiN 'to be one's father' or dhigdhaN dhiNge 'to lack thinking' (or its negative) are idiomatic in any sense in OP, either. These examples simply show what hypothetically cognate OP forms would look like. In essence it is suggested that Michigamea (or Bossu's pidgin Michigamea) has the following elements: i(N)daj^e < *i(N)-tate 'his father'. Here iNdaj^e is more plausible as 'my father', or as an error for *idaj^e or *iraj^e or whatever the third person should have been. Or perhaps we should envision something like 'My father' [he-says] I-am-not [treated like that]. Compare OP iNdadi < *iN-tati 'my father', dhiadi < *ri-ati 'your father', idhadi < *i-(r)ati 'his father' (typical of Dhegiha), or IO hiNda(N)j^e < *iN-ta(N)te 'my father', naN'j^e < *r(i)-a(N)te 'your father', aNj^e < *(i-)a(N)te 'his father'. Note that IO hiNda(N)j^e 'my father' is archaic. Current is suppletive hiNka. *riN (*niN?) 'to be', attested in a first person bniN (bliN?) 'I am'. Compare OP dhiN 'be (of some kind)', bdhiN 'I am', (s^)niN 'you are', *dhiN 'he is', or IO n[y]iN 'be possessed of a quality'. I'm not sure what the inflection of this IO verb is. *riklaN (< *rukraN) 'to think, to engage in mental activity', attested in a second person plural (h)tikla(N)=be (or =bi) 'you-all think; your thinking'. Compare OP i'dhigdhaN < *i-ru-kraN 'to decide', inflected i'bdhigdhaN 'I decide', i'(s^)nigdhaN 'you decide', but notice Quapaw inflects di- < *ru- as p-di- 'I ...', t-ti- 'you ...'. Reduction of *s^- 'you (syncopated)' to preaspiration is a common tendency across Dhegiha, whether it leads to s^-ni- > h-ni- > ni- as in OP, or to *h-di- > t-ti- as in Quapaw. IO has rugra(N)' < *ru-kraN 'to consider, judge, think on, think that', inflected (ha)du'graN 'I think', (ra)sdu'graN 'you think'. ni(N)ge < *riNke' 'to lack'. Compare OP dhiNge' 'to lack', IO niNge, niNnye 'there is no'. In addition there is a negative that seems to be prefixal we- in one case, and circumfixal we-...-s in another. Perhaps the final -s is simply missing in error in the first case. Siouan negatives exhibit suffixed elements *=s^(i) and *=riN, sometimes separate, sometimes together, in one order or another, cf. Da =s^-niN but Mandan =riN-x ~ =xi (where x is an augmentive grade of the the fricative set s/s^/x). Dakotan has =s^(i) as an adversative enclitic 'also, indeed'. Dhegiha has *=z^i only as negative, with intrusive maN 'I do' in the first person. IO has =s^kun(y)iN. However, Winnebago has =niN 'negative' (and =z^i 'at least'), and =s^kuNniN as a dubitative. While the IO/Wi *=s^kuN-riN sequence probably includes the negative element *=riN, it may be that the older reading of *=s^kuN-riN was dubitative, and that the IO negative is an old dubitative. That is, perhaps Winnebago is more conservative than IO in this aspect of its morphology. Siouan negatives also sometimes exhibit a prefixal element combined with the suffix to make a negative circumfix. These prefixal elements are not cognate, but Mandan in particular exhibits wa-, with which compare the we- found in Michigamea. My inclination without "Michigamea" is to see the *=s^i or *=Si element in Siouan negatives as a sort of emphatic, not unlike French pas, etc., or English not (originally). This leaves *=riN, sometimes missing, as in Dhegiha as the negative element. If it is simply a form of *riN 'be', then perhaps the original negative is missing entirely, as in modern collquial French ... pas, etc., missing original ne, or, for that matter, modern English ... not, missing original prefixed ne, too. What Michigamea might contribute is a suspicion that the prefixal we- (Michigamea?), wa- (Mandan) represent the original negative. Not that we really need another wa- prefix, or even another we- prefix. I don't think any of this is inherently unreasonable, but even without getting into the somewhat odd contexts Bossu provides in his annecdotes, and other issues of that nature, these are plainly a bit difficult to be sure of. It looks Siouan to me, and it doesn't look Algonquian to the Algonquianists, but maybe it's really just mush. If it is Siouan, I hope I've shown that while Dhegiha generally, and on some points, Quapaw specifically, are useful in interpeting it, so is Ioway-Otoe, and the negative is really not at all like a Dhegiha negative. It's at least as much like a Mandan negative as a Dhegiha one, and otherwise it's at best reminiscent of the general character of a Siouan negative, especially if we concentrate on the suffixal -s, comparing it to *s^(i) and more or less ignore the prefixal we-. JEK From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 29 19:41:24 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:41:24 -0700 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D01233A38@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > I can't remember at the moment why it was named after 'Pain Court', or > what 'Pain Court' really meant. I think somewhere there's an article > that explains this. Bob, does this ring a bell? > > 'Fraid not, unless it's a reference to SHORT-BREAD. But I would expect > that expression to have originated in English. (Do the French call > baking fats by the name "shortening"?). One of the OED guys on the list > could attack that angle. I had an oral version of the paper on one or more occasions while helping with the computer end of the Gros Ventre dictionary. I think Allan's understanding is that pain court is more or less analogous to English "short commons" or maybe in this case "starvation town." In other words, bread was not so much short (without yeast?) as in shortage. It's interesting to consider that ppahiN (I think the nasalization is right here) z^ide might be related to pain cort, but it doesn't look like it holds up, and I've always assumed that Fletcher & LaFlesche were correct in asserting that it was a reference to Clark's residence there. PpahiN z^ide strikes me as a cross-linguistic pun raised to the level of a folk etymology and quite in line with Omaha humor. It reminds me of xidha z^e or xidha giaN for 'Friday', though there's only a translation there, no pun. (I guess that would be xuya c^he in Dakota.) I think hte practice of introducing slight permutations in words to produce new meanings for humorous effect are more or less universal. I remember it being obligatory in the dorms years ago to refer to certain brands of soda as Mountain Spew and Dr. Pecker, and though neither of these is quite as good a play on words as ppahi z^ide we were all impressed with our wittiness. (Similar things were done with other brands, but this sort of thing can easily get out of hand.) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 29 19:47:08 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:47:08 -0700 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Pain Court means "short bread". > > There is a folk-etymology roaming around (perhaps in the article > referenced below) that says that the term means "short of bread". > But that's just what it is. So, in other words, you think the name has another origin? I for one have never checked to see if it is an attested idiom in French. I stopped at the obvious. > The name means "short bread". I believe the name occurs elsewhere in > the Francophone word, maybe in Ontario. It is not a surname as far as I > know. Could it be a "dit name"? I've always assumed that surnames like Sanssouci were of that origin. I've wondered about LaFlesche (la fleche), too. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 29 19:52:25 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:52:25 -0700 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Anthony Grant wrote: > Dave's thinking of the Allan Taylor article in the Festschrift for > Christoph Wolfart, which deals with the origin of the word for 'Mexican; > in Arapaho and Gros Ventre. For those who don't know it, and without the Gros Ventre forms themselves, the Gros Ventre term for 'Mexican' is literally 'bread person'. This is commonly assumed by speakers to refer to tortillas, but Allan suggests it is a fossil reference to Paincourt, meaning 'someone from the Spanish city of Paincourt'. From rankin at ku.edu Mon Mar 29 19:48:13 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:48:13 -0600 Subject: St. Louis? Message-ID: > It's interesting to consider that ppahiN (I think the nasalization is right here) z^ide might be related to pain cort, but it doesn't look like it holds up, and I've always assumed that Fletcher & LaFlesche were correct in asserting that it was a reference to Clark's residence there. Yes, I actually favor the Clark analysis, and (for Rory), I'm the one who scribbled that it had to do with Clark's hair color on the list you circulated at East Lansing last Summer. I probably didn't I.D. myself on the paper when I gave it back. Wish I could help more. Bob From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Mar 29 19:52:50 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:52:50 -0800 Subject: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) Message-ID: There isn't any Algonquian negative /wi(i)/ that I'm aware of, at least not a prefix, which is what seems to be present here. There is a SUFFIX /-w-/ which characterizes the negative in Eastern Algonquian languages, and which co-occurs with the negative suffix /-si(i)/ in Ojibwe and Miami, but nothing at the front of words like this. Whatever the Michagamea is, it's probably homegrown Siouan. Dave > The "negative" we- looks much more like the Algonquian negative wi(i) > than anything Siouan, but I'm not in a position to say much more, I'm > afraid. > > Bob From rankin at ku.edu Mon Mar 29 20:06:10 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 14:06:10 -0600 Subject: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) Message-ID: I just heard Ives give his "history of Algonquian negation" paper and was drawing on memory. A lot of the forms had the /w/ all right, but it was often followed by /i/ or /ii/, which may have some other identity for all I know. I think the /si(i)/ is probably the /hisi(i)/ diminutive that seems to take part in negation, but I'll have to go check Ives' handout. Bob -----Original Message----- From: David Costa [mailto:pankihtamwa at earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 1:53 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) There isn't any Algonquian negative /wi(i)/ that I'm aware of, at least not a prefix, which is what seems to be present here. There is a SUFFIX /-w-/ which characterizes the negative in Eastern Algonquian languages, and which co-occurs with the negative suffix /-si(i)/ in Ojibwe and Miami, but nothing at the front of words like this. Whatever the Michagamea is, it's probably homegrown Siouan. Dave > The "negative" we- looks much more like the Algonquian negative wi(i) > than anything Siouan, but I'm not in a position to say much more, I'm > afraid. > > Bob From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Mar 29 20:14:10 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:14:10 -0800 Subject: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) Message-ID: Right, the /-si(i)w-/ negative often seen in Ojibwe & Miami is a fusion of a diminutive suffix (the part with the 's') with an old dubitative suffix (the part with the 'w'). My point was just that the leap from an old Algonquian suffix to a prefix in an apparently Siouan language seems unlikely. Dave > I just heard Ives give his "history of Algonquian negation" paper and > was drawing on memory. A lot of the forms had the /w/ all right, but > it was often followed by /i/ or /ii/, which may have some other identity > for all I know. I think the /si(i)/ is probably the /hisi(i)/ > diminutive that seems to take part in negation, but I'll have to go > check Ives' handout. > > Bob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: David Costa [mailto:pankihtamwa at earthlink.net] >> Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 1:53 PM >> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> Subject: Re: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) >> >> >> There isn't any Algonquian negative /wi(i)/ that I'm aware of, at least >> not a prefix, which is what seems to be present here. There is a SUFFIX >> /-w-/ which characterizes the negative in Eastern Algonquian languages, >> and which co-occurs with the negative suffix /-si(i)/ in Ojibwe and >> Miami, but nothing at the front of words like this. Whatever the >> Michagamea is, it's probably homegrown Siouan. >> >> Dave >> >> >> >>> The "negative" we- looks much more like the Algonquian negative wi(i) >>> than anything Siouan, but I'm not in a position to say much more, I'm >>> afraid. >>> >>> Bob >> From rankin at ku.edu Mon Mar 29 20:34:54 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 14:34:54 -0600 Subject: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) Message-ID: So maybe Michigamea is a "mirror image" language, like the kind of finite-state grammars Chomsky used to talk about in Syntactic Structures. Just Algonquian, but starting from the ends of the words and going forward! Then wi/we would be a prefix! With only about 4 words, it's definitely finite. And there you are! Bob > Right, the /-si(i)w-/ negative often seen in Ojibwe & Miami is a fusion of a diminutive suffix (the part with the 's') with an old dubitative suffix (the part with the 'w'). My point was just that the leap from an old Algonquian suffix to a prefix in an apparently Siouan language seems unlikely. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 29 20:57:13 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:57:13 -0700 Subject: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > Right, the /-si(i)w-/ negative often seen in Ojibwe & Miami is a fusion of a > diminutive suffix (the part with the 's') with an old dubitative suffix (the > part with the 'w'). My point was just that the leap from an old Algonquian > suffix to a prefix in an apparently Siouan language seems unlikely. It's interesting that negatives and dubitatives intertwine in Algonquian, since similar things seem to occur in Siouan. It certainly seems natural enough, but you like to see it happening elsewhere and even in the neighborhood, if possible. If I had to explain Mandan wa- (and maybe Michigamea *we-) I think I'd be inclined to see it as a somewhat heavily modified version of *wiN-... 'one', or, in effect, as an analog of the post verbal elements in more familiar European circumfixal negatives, e.g., French ne VERB pas, point, etc. 'not VERB a step, a bit' cf. wa-VERB-NEG < 'one' VERB-NEG 'to not ... one(ce)'. The form of PS 'one' is somewhat difficult because of the amount of similarly arbitrary ammendment in the daughter languages. Bob Rankin probably knows the material better. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 29 21:08:29 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 14:08:29 -0700 Subject: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D01233A3C@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I really can't take credit for any of John's very thorough analysis. I > may have noted the resemblance of one or two of the words, but he's the > one who has done all the work. Bob pulled out the plums, I gnawed the pits to death. > I don't know what to make of Michigamea, such as it is. It's too bad we > can't come up with just a few more words/phrases. That could be the > clincher. I've always wanted to wrap this one up better, but I've never been able to get hold of a French version of Jean-Benard Bossu's narrative. You never know what's been left out, added, corrected, or what not in translations. Without something like the original there's not much I can do. I did comb through the English version I had extracts of, looking for other material, but everything else was actually Miami-Illinois, right up through chief Papape Changouias (from memory). Maybe a few MI subtribal names that occur only a few times were obscure, but I think David Costa was able to make sense of most them, even such promisingly Siouan-looking forms as Moingoina (if moiNkwena). JEK From rankin at ku.edu Mon Mar 29 21:18:53 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:18:53 -0600 Subject: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) Message-ID: When Ives did his paper this weekend, Eric Hamp made the point that there are scarcely any languages that haven't shuffled their negative morphology rather completely over a 2K year period. Even Breton and Welsh, which are very close, have gone their separate ways on negation. So apparently these combinations of 'adversative', 'dubitative', 'negative', etc. are very common -- more so than I had realized. So Siouan /s^iN/, /ku/ and /riN/ aren't alone in finding themselves combined and re-combined periodically. Along with various intensifiers, diminutives, etc., all of which are common participants in negation. Bob > 's interesting that negatives and dubitatives intertwine in Algonquian, since similar things seem to occur in Siouan. It certainly seems natural enough, but you like to see it happening elsewhere and even in the neighborhood, if possible. > I had to explain Mandan wa- (and maybe Michigamea *we-) I think I'd be inclined to see it as a somewhat heavily modified version of *wiN-... 'one', or, in effect, as an analog of the post verbal elements in more familiar European circumfixal negatives, e.g., French ne VERB pas, point, etc. 'not VERB a step, a bit' cf. wa-VERB-NEG < 'one' VERB-NEG 'to not ... one(ce)'. The form of PS 'one' is somewhat difficult because of the amount of similarly arbitrary ammendment in the daughter languages. Bob Rankin probably knows the material better. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 29 22:51:32 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:51:32 -0500 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > > > > Well, the first part of that certainly looks promising. > Could pain have been pronounced /paiN/ then, or would it > be clearly /peN:/ ? If the former, it should be easy > for an Omaha speaker to reinterpret it as pahiN' or > pa'hi. > > The second part throws me though. I don't see how to > get from Fr. court, 'short', to OP z^i'de, 'red', either > by reinterpretation of the sound sequence or by calquing. > Is there any possibility that the 't' in court would have > been pronounced back then? > No, there's no way it was pronounced. However, here's something: pain 'bread' and pin 'pine' are homophonous. As far as I know, nobody knows why it was called "pain court," but perhaps he was "pins courts," (short pines), the plural French term being homophonous, too. Michael > Thanks for the comments! > > Rory > > > > > > Michael Mccafferty > u> cc: > Sent by: Subject: Re: St. Louis? > owner-siouan at lists.c > olorado.edu > > > 03/29/2004 11:56 AM > Please respond to > siouan > > > > > > > Pain Court means "short bread". > > There is a folk-etymology roaming around (perhaps in the article > referenced below) that says that the term means "short of bread". > But that's just what it is. > > The name means "short bread". I believe the name occurs elsewhere in > the Francophone word, maybe in Ontario. It is not a surname as far as I > know. > > Michael > > > > On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > > > All I know about the name for St. Louis in Algonquian is that the Shawnee > > name for it is peenhko (Gatschet's ), and the Mesquakie form is > > pe:ko:neki (a locative). These are apparently borrowings from French > 'Pain > > Court'. However, it's been so long since I thought about this, I can't > > remember at the moment why it was named after 'Pain Court', or what 'Pain > > Court' really meant. I think somewhere there's an article that explains > > this. Bob, does this ring a bell? > > > > Dave Costa > > > > > > > > I'm wondering about the name for St. Louis in native languages. For > OP, > > > Dorsey has Ppa'hi-z^i'de, "Red Neck", as a term for the inhabitants. > > > Fletcher and La Flesche give Ppahi'-z^ide ttoNwoN, "Red Hair town", > with > > > the note "Referring to the color of Governor Clark's hair". I've had > it in > > > mind that the latter explanation was confirmed by the Osage form, but I > > > can't seem to find a reference. Can anyone point me to further > information > > > on this? I'd be especially interested knowing the name for it in > Osage, > > > Kaw, Iowa-Oto, or even Algonquian languages. > > > > > > > > > > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 29 22:53:03 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:53:03 -0500 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164DFD@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Most French came from the north or the east and the combination thereof. The major port was La Rochelle. I've never heard of a Provencal speaker among the lot, although anything's possible. Michael On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > Is there any possibility that the 't' in court would have > been pronounced back then? > > No, I don't think so, although, in Provencal dialects or others, > anything is possible. Catalans in Rousillon might pronounce it even > today. It is maintained in the feminine, of course. Someone may have > cataloged the parts of France represented in the various expeditions, > but I'd expect there were quite a few voyageurs whose origins are > unknown. > > Bob > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 29 22:54:14 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:54:14 -0500 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D01233A38@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Actually, I was in a discussion (somehow) about this place name (not on the Siouan list) a few months back. Ives Goddard was also (somehow) in on that. He said the term was valid, "pain court," was valid for French. Michael On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > I can't remember at the moment why it was named after 'Pain Court', or > what 'Pain Court' really meant. I think somewhere there's an article > that explains this. Bob, does this ring a bell? > > 'Fraid not, unless it's a reference to SHORT-BREAD. But I would expect > that expression to have originated in English. (Do the French call > baking fats by the name "shortening"?). One of the OED guys on the list > could attack that angle. > > Bob > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 29 22:55:49 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:55:49 -0500 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > > > > > Could pain have been pronounced /paiN/ then, or would it > > be clearly /peN:/ ? If the former, it should be easy > > for an Omaha speaker to reinterpret it as pahiN' or > > pa'hi. > > > > The second part throws me though. I don't see how to > > get from Fr. court, 'short', to OP z^i'de, 'red', either > > by reinterpretation of the sound sequence or by calquing. > > Is there any possibility that the 't' in court would have > > been pronounced back then? > > Well here's an outside possibility! There is an entry in > Francis La Flesche's Osage dictionary: > > zhiN'da, it was not. > > I've never run across this in OP, and there doesn't seem > to be any elaboration on it in the Osage dictionary either. > > So my highly dubious speculation is: > > Fr. pain court "short (of?) bread" > No. Definitely not. "Pain court" has no semantic relationship with "short of bread". > => Os. paiN zhiNda "the bread was not" > > => OP pa'hi zhi'de "red neck" > pahiN' zhide "red hair" > > the latter interpretation coming into vogue with Governor Clark. > > This speculation depends on favorable answers to three questions: > > 1. Is the folk interpretation, pain court = "short of bread", > really possible in French? > No, again, again. Michael > 2. What was the actual meaning and use of Os. zhiNda ? > > 3. Did the Osage borrow Fr. pain as /paiN/ to mean bread? > In OP, all things bread, dough and wheat are covered by > wamuske. In the Osage dictionary, I see this word used > only once, in reference to a wheat field. I don't see > any reference to "bread" in the dictionary, which might > suggest that it was a loan word ignored by La Flesche. > > Rory > > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 29 22:57:50 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:57:50 -0500 Subject: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D01233A3C@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I think I remember that the Illinois-French dictionary commonly attributed to Jacques Gravier has a few *Illinois* language dialect terms associated by the compiler(s) of that dictionary with the Metchigamea, as, at some point, they or some of them, became Illinois speakers. That doesn't help, of course, the putative Siouan origin for their ancestral tongue. Michael On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I really can't take credit for any of John's very thorough analysis. I > may have noted the resemblance of one or two of the words, but he's the > one who has done all the work. I don't know what to make of Michigamea, > such as it is. It's too bad we can't come up with just a few more > words/phrases. That could be the clincher. > > The "negative" we- looks much more like the Algonquian negative wi(i) > than anything Siouan, but I'm not in a position to say much more, I'm > afraid. > > Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: Koontz John E [mailto:John.Koontz at colorado.edu] > Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 1:33 AM > To: Siouan List > Subject: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) > > > On Tue, 23 Mar 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > Speculation upon speculation, the gateway to all delusion! > > > My sense is that the Michigamea, although as John has pointed out the > > evidence is muy thin, were Dhegiha speakers and, as the Old Illinois > > name for the Ohio River /akaansasiipi/ indicates, the Dhegiha were > > associated with the Ohio River at least by the second half of the 17th > > > century, ... > > Granted that there are only four words, it looks about halfway between > Dhegiha and Ioway-Otoe. > > I might as well provide the forms: > > indage' ouai panis > 'je suis indigne de vivre, > je ne me'rite plus de porter le doux nom de pe're' > (expressing guilt as to treatment of a son) > 'I am unworthy to live, > I no longer am worthy of the sweet name of father' > > tikalabe', houe' ni que' > 'nous te croyons, tu as raison' > 'we believe you, you are right' > > My suggestions for rendering these are derived from some insights of Bob > Rankin (at least 'father' and 'think', as I recall, and maybe 'lack' as > well), and come down to this: > > in- dage' ouai- pani- s > i(N)- da'j^e we'- b-niN= s > his father negative- I-am= negative > > 'I am not his father.' > > > ti- kala- be' houe'- nigue' > h-ti'-klaN= be we'- niNge= (s) > you- think=plural negative- it-lacks= negative > > 'Your thinking is not lacking.' > > > You could compare these with made up pseudo-Omaha-Ponca sentences: > > *i- dhadi b-dhiN=az^i > his father I am negative > > *s^- nigdhaN=bi dhiNga= z^i > you think plural it lacks negative > > There is no OP verb *dhigdhaN 'to think' that I know of, but OP has > i'dhigdhaN 'to decide, to plan', and its nominalization we'dhigdhaN > 'decision, plan, mind'. This has a dative i'gidhigdhaN 'to rule', and a > compound miN'=dhigdhaN 'to think of women'. The form dhigdhaN' 'to > marry' is probably unrelated. > > Note that OP requires the auxiliary maN 'I do' between the verb and the > negative in the first person. I do not believe that either idhadi dhiN > 'to be one's father' or dhigdhaN dhiNge 'to lack thinking' (or its > negative) are idiomatic in any sense in OP, either. These examples > simply show what hypothetically cognate OP forms would look like. > > In essence it is suggested that Michigamea (or Bossu's pidgin > Michigamea) has the following elements: > > i(N)daj^e < *i(N)-tate 'his father'. Here iNdaj^e is more plausible as > 'my father', or as an error for *idaj^e or *iraj^e or whatever the third > person should have been. Or perhaps we should envision something like > 'My father' [he-says] I-am-not [treated like that]. Compare OP iNdadi < > *iN-tati 'my father', dhiadi < *ri-ati 'your father', idhadi < *i-(r)ati > 'his father' (typical of Dhegiha), or IO hiNda(N)j^e < *iN-ta(N)te 'my > father', naN'j^e < *r(i)-a(N)te 'your father', aNj^e < *(i-)a(N)te 'his > father'. Note that IO hiNda(N)j^e 'my father' is archaic. Current is > suppletive hiNka. > > *riN (*niN?) 'to be', attested in a first person bniN (bliN?) 'I am'. > Compare OP dhiN 'be (of some kind)', bdhiN 'I am', (s^)niN 'you are', > *dhiN 'he is', or IO n[y]iN 'be possessed of a quality'. I'm not sure > what the inflection of this IO verb is. > > *riklaN (< *rukraN) 'to think, to engage in mental activity', attested > in a second person plural (h)tikla(N)=be (or =bi) 'you-all think; your > thinking'. Compare OP i'dhigdhaN < *i-ru-kraN 'to decide', inflected > i'bdhigdhaN 'I decide', i'(s^)nigdhaN 'you decide', but notice Quapaw > inflects di- < *ru- as p-di- 'I ...', t-ti- 'you ...'. Reduction of > *s^- 'you (syncopated)' to preaspiration is a common tendency across > Dhegiha, whether it leads to s^-ni- > h-ni- > ni- as in OP, or to *h-di- > > t-ti- as in Quapaw. IO has rugra(N)' < *ru-kraN 'to consider, judge, > think on, think that', inflected (ha)du'graN 'I think', (ra)sdu'graN > 'you think'. > > ni(N)ge < *riNke' 'to lack'. Compare OP dhiNge' 'to lack', IO niNge, > niNnye 'there is no'. > > In addition there is a negative that seems to be prefixal we- in one > case, and circumfixal we-...-s in another. Perhaps the final -s is > simply missing in error in the first case. Siouan negatives exhibit > suffixed elements *=s^(i) and *=riN, sometimes separate, sometimes > together, in one order or another, cf. Da =s^-niN but Mandan =riN-x ~ > =xi (where x is an augmentive grade of the the fricative set s/s^/x). > Dakotan has =s^(i) as an adversative enclitic 'also, indeed'. Dhegiha > has *=z^i only as negative, with intrusive maN 'I do' in the first > person. > > IO has =s^kun(y)iN. However, Winnebago has =niN 'negative' (and =z^i > 'at least'), and =s^kuNniN as a dubitative. While the IO/Wi *=s^kuN-riN > sequence probably includes the negative element *=riN, it may be that > the older reading of *=s^kuN-riN was dubitative, and that the IO > negative is an old dubitative. That is, perhaps Winnebago is more > conservative than IO in this aspect of its morphology. > > Siouan negatives also sometimes exhibit a prefixal element combined with > the suffix to make a negative circumfix. These prefixal elements are > not cognate, but Mandan in particular exhibits wa-, with which compare > the we- found in Michigamea. > > My inclination without "Michigamea" is to see the *=s^i or *=Si element > in Siouan negatives as a sort of emphatic, not unlike French pas, etc., > or English not (originally). This leaves *=riN, sometimes missing, as > in Dhegiha as the negative element. If it is simply a form of *riN > 'be', then perhaps the original negative is missing entirely, as in > modern collquial French ... pas, etc., missing original ne, or, for that > matter, modern English ... not, missing original prefixed ne, too. > > What Michigamea might contribute is a suspicion that the prefixal we- > (Michigamea?), wa- (Mandan) represent the original negative. Not that > we really need another wa- prefix, or even another we- prefix. > > I don't think any of this is inherently unreasonable, but even without > getting into the somewhat odd contexts Bossu provides in his annecdotes, > and other issues of that nature, these are plainly a bit difficult to be > sure of. It looks Siouan to me, and it doesn't look Algonquian to the > Algonquianists, but maybe it's really just mush. > > If it is Siouan, I hope I've shown that while Dhegiha generally, and on > some points, Quapaw specifically, are useful in interpeting it, so is > Ioway-Otoe, and the negative is really not at all like a Dhegiha > negative. It's at least as much like a Mandan negative as a Dhegiha one, > and otherwise it's at best reminiscent of the general character of a > Siouan negative, especially if we concentrate on the suffixal -s, > comparing it to > *s^(i) and more or less ignore the prefixal we-. > > JEK > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Mar 29 22:59:02 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:59:02 -0500 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > > I can't remember at the moment why it was named after 'Pain Court', or > > what 'Pain Court' really meant. I think somewhere there's an article > > that explains this. Bob, does this ring a bell? > > > > 'Fraid not, unless it's a reference to SHORT-BREAD. But I would expect > > that expression to have originated in English. (Do the French call > > baking fats by the name "shortening"?). One of the OED guys on the list > > could attack that angle. > > I had an oral version of the paper on one or more occasions while helping > with the computer end of the Gros Ventre dictionary. I think Allan's > understanding is that pain court is more or less analogous to English > "short commons" or maybe in this case "starvation town." In other words, > bread was not so much short (without yeast?) as in shortage. But, encore une fois, this doesn't fit French and it smells like a folk-etymology, albeit a tasty one. Michael > > It's interesting to consider that ppahiN (I think the nasalization is > right here) z^ide might be related to pain cort, but it doesn't look like > it holds up, and I've always assumed that Fletcher & LaFlesche were > correct in asserting that it was a reference to Clark's residence there. > > PpahiN z^ide strikes me as a cross-linguistic pun raised to the level of a > folk etymology and quite in line with Omaha humor. It reminds me of xidha > z^e or xidha giaN for 'Friday', though there's only a translation there, > no pun. (I guess that would be xuya c^he in Dakota.) I think hte > practice of introducing slight permutations in words to produce new > meanings for humorous effect are more or less universal. I remember it > being obligatory in the dorms years ago to refer to certain brands of soda > as Mountain Spew and Dr. Pecker, and though neither of these is quite as > good a play on words as ppahi z^ide we were all impressed with our > wittiness. (Similar things were done with other brands, but this sort of > thing can easily get out of hand.) > > > From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Mar 29 23:15:26 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:15:26 -0600 Subject: St. Louis? Message-ID: John wrote: > It's interesting to consider that ppahiN (I think the nasalization is > right here) z^ide might be related to pain cort, but it doesn't look like > it holds up, and I've always assumed that Fletcher & LaFlesche were > correct in asserting that it was a reference to Clark's residence there. The nasalization ought to be right if we're understanding ppahiN' as ppa 'head' + hiN 'hair', as is only sane. Fletcher and La Flesche (p. 107) actually don't show it as nasalized: pahi', even though they do show the nasalization for hiN', 'hair', and pehiN', 'hair on forehead'. It seems like a lot of nasalization is lost in 20th century Omaha, especially for [iN]. As far as I can make out, our speakers seem to prefer the pronunciation to be ppahi'. If there's a nasalization there, it's awfully slight. Dorsey also gives the St. Louis name in his dictionary, and he says explicitly that it is ppa'hi z^i'de, "Those who have their necks red". If we are assuming that punning humor played a role here as John suggests, then there could actually have been several valid forms of the word. The ppahiN' z^ide, "red hair", form might have been coined in the early 1800's during the tenure of Governor Clark, while the ppa'hi z^i'de, "red neck" form might have been an older form dating to the late 18th century in reference to the blatantly sunburned necks of the first white men they had much contact with, who would have arrived from St. Louis every summer around August having poled their craft up the Missouri with their backs mostly to the sun all the way from the Kansas City region. This form itself might have been a pun on a prior, possibly non-Omaha form which incorporated the first element of the French Pain Court. We may never know for sure, but I think it's premature to say that the relationship doesn't hold up. I'd still like to know what IO and other Dhegihans called St. Louis. Rory From rankin at ku.edu Tue Mar 30 00:02:14 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:02:14 -0600 Subject: St. Louis? Message-ID: For myself, I've never heard /ppahi'/ used to mean 'neck'. Ttahu, yes, ppahi, no. Maybe it's just an OP usage. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rory M Larson" To: Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 5:15 PM Subject: RE: St. Louis? > > > > > John wrote: > > It's interesting to consider that ppahiN (I think the nasalization is > > right here) z^ide might be related to pain cort, but it doesn't look like > > it holds up, and I've always assumed that Fletcher & LaFlesche were > > correct in asserting that it was a reference to Clark's residence there. > > The nasalization ought to be right if we're understanding ppahiN' > as ppa 'head' + hiN 'hair', as is only sane. Fletcher and La Flesche > (p. 107) actually don't show it as nasalized: pahi', even though they > do show the nasalization for hiN', 'hair', and pehiN', 'hair on forehead'. > It seems like a lot of nasalization is lost in 20th century Omaha, > especially for [iN]. As far as I can make out, our speakers seem to > prefer the pronunciation to be ppahi'. If there's a nasalization there, > it's awfully slight. > > Dorsey also gives the St. Louis name in his dictionary, and he says > explicitly that it is ppa'hi z^i'de, "Those who have their necks red". > > If we are assuming that punning humor played a role here as John suggests, > then there could actually have been several valid forms of the word. The > ppahiN' z^ide, "red hair", form might have been coined in the early 1800's > during the tenure of Governor Clark, while the ppa'hi z^i'de, "red neck" > form might have been an older form dating to the late 18th century in > reference to the blatantly sunburned necks of the first white men they > had much contact with, who would have arrived from St. Louis every summer > around August having poled their craft up the Missouri with their backs > mostly to the sun all the way from the Kansas City region. This form > itself might have been a pun on a prior, possibly non-Omaha form which > incorporated the first element of the French Pain Court. We may never > know for sure, but I think it's premature to say that the relationship > doesn't hold up. I'd still like to know what IO and other Dhegihans > called St. Louis. > > Rory > > From rankin at ku.edu Tue Mar 30 00:04:42 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:04:42 -0600 Subject: St. Louis? Message-ID: > Actually, I was in a discussion (somehow) about this place name (not on > the Siouan list) a few months back. Ives Goddard was also (somehow) in on > that. He said the term was valid, "pain court," was valid for French. With what meaning? B. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Mar 30 00:32:41 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 19:32:41 -0500 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: <002601c415ea$acd00120$02b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: short bread. On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > > Actually, I was in a discussion (somehow) about this place name (not on > > the Siouan list) a few months back. Ives Goddard was also (somehow) in on > > that. He said the term was valid, "pain court," was valid for French. > > With what meaning? > > B. > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Mar 30 00:51:00 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 19:51:00 -0500 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob, I'm just sent out a message to one of the people who had that "Pain Court" discussion a few months back and asked him for a copy of it if he saved it. I'll send it on if it arrives here. Michael Quoting Michael Mccafferty : > short bread. > > > > On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > > > > Actually, I was in a discussion (somehow) about this place name (not on > > > the Siouan list) a few months back. Ives Goddard was also (somehow) in > on > > > that. He said the term was valid, "pain court," was valid for French. > > > > With what meaning? > > > > B. > > > > > > > > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 30 01:07:43 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:07:43 -0700 Subject: Michigamea (Re: (O)maha) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > I think I remember that the Illinois-French dictionary commonly attributed > to Jacques Gravier has a few *Illinois* language dialect terms associated > by the compiler(s) of that dictionary with the Metchigamea, as, at some > point, they or some of them, became Illinois speakers. That doesn't help, > of course, the putative Siouan origin for their ancestral tongue. In other words, as I think I established some time back with David Costa, all these terms are clearly MI or at least Algonquian? I also remember looking at a handwritten list of personal names without being able to make heads, tails, or Siouan of it. JEK From ahartley at d.umn.edu Tue Mar 30 02:04:44 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:04:44 -0600 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Pain Court is also a town in Ontario: see http://www.paincourt.ca/history.htm Pain in Quebec French is [peN] (Dict. Hist. du Fran?ais Qu?b?cois, 1998, s.v) The DHFQ has a lengthy entry on pain, naming several types, but not pain court. Nothing in Dictionnaire canadien-fran?ais (1894). A quick web-troll suggests that pain court is, in metropol. Fr. at least, a 'short (not long) loaf of bread'. Perhaps at St. Louis there was some sort of topographic reference, as often with sugar loaf, for example. Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 30 02:24:45 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 19:24:45 -0700 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > > The name means "short bread". I believe the name occurs elsewhere in > > the Francophone word, maybe in Ontario. It is not a surname as far as I > > know. > > Could it be a "dit name"? I'm afraid that the following does not clarify anything. In fact, it complicates it by seeming to support any and all of the suggestions so far, not to mention some others. One wonders if there might not be a confluence of ideas involved. Perhaps as the hardy voyageur poles his boat up the Missouri, his eyes focussed sharply on the shore, yet somehow distant, abstracted, he is thinking not of furs, but of elaborate three-level puns that will really knock their socks off the next time he casually drops one into conversation at Sarpy's store. ==== First, for what it's worth there was once a French mathematician surnamed Painleve (http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Painleve.html), pain leve (raised bread) being the opposite of pain court in the sense of short bread. Looking along those lines on the Web: There are places named Paincourt or Paincourtville in Ontario and Louisiana (and formerly in the Missouri). See http://www.onterm.gov.on.ca/geo/details_e.asp?letter=p&ind=51 for a list of Ontario placenames. The Canadian locality was an early French settlement (http://www.inforoute.on.ca/fron/colo.html, http://www.francoplanete.net/tricentenaire/Histoire/DeveloppementFrancais.htm). There's a rue de Paincourt in Chateauroux, France, and a rue or r[ou]te de Paincourt in Clairefontaine en Yvelines. References to St. Louis as Paincourt, invariably glossed "short of bread": http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=lhbum7689g&hc=10&ifr=1&gss=angs&ct=2851&clx=PrvRec. http://www.common-place.org/vol-03/no-04/st-louis/http://www.common-place.org/vol-03/no-04/st-louis/ http://www.uwgb.edu/wisfrench/library/history/language.htm The last says: > It is impossible to utilize French colonial documents as historical > sources without understanding the penchant of the French of the time to > use nicknames even in formal legal papers. Colonial Ste-Genevi?ve, now > our St. Genevieve, Missouri, was also known as Mis?re or "poverty," and > St. Louis itself was known to many as Paincourt, said to mean "short on > bread." The principle of homophony or sound resemblance can be used to > derive the French nickname Louis Constant for Prairie du Chien, for many > years a place of rendezvous for traders on the Mississippi just above > the mouth of the Wisconsin River. L'ouisconsin (The Wisconsin) became > Louisconstant or Louis Constant (steadfast Louis). This was put together by "Robert Hall ... Professor Emeritus of Anthropology at the University of Illinois at Chicago and Adjunct Curator of Midwestern and Plains Archaeology at the Field Museum, Chicago." a name some of us will know. Substantially similar things occur in the other discussions. I don't know the origin of the analysis. I did finally locate a reference to Paincourt as a dit name for Deroches. Desroches - Boucher, Laroux, Tinon, Lafontaine, Paincourt http://www.geocities.com/emersos/canadian_names.html > What are dit names ? > > A "dit name" is an alias given to a family name. Compared to other alias > or a.k.a. that are given to one specific pers on, the dit names will be > given to many persons. It seems the usage exists almost only in France, > New France and in Scotland where we find clans or septs. Many of the > soldiers of the Carignan Regiment who came here in 1665-1668, lived > around Dauphine. While they were not the only ones nor the first to use > dit names in New France, it seems those soldiers are responsible, for a > great extent, the dit names reached in Quebec compared to France, Acadia > or Louisiana. For Paul Deroches, dit Paincourt, see http://marchif.crosswinds.net/texte/57/57804.html. As far as the homophony of the name, "I have other info. which indicates that Charles was born in Ontario ("Pan Couer" which I now believe to be Paincourt, Ontario)." Coeur is 'heart'. And, for what it's worth, it seems that paincourt (and several other pain-based words like painboeuf, paincuit, etc.) have some significance to French and/or German gay males which I have elected not to further investigate at this time. That list does suggest to me, however, that paincourt might also be rendered shortcake(s). From ahartley at d.umn.edu Tue Mar 30 03:34:43 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:34:43 -0600 Subject: [Fwd: Re: St. Louis?] Message-ID: Apologies if this was posted already, but I haven't seen it show up. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: St. Louis? Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:04:44 -0600 From: Alan Hartley To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Pain Court is also a town in Ontario: see http://www.paincourt.ca/history.htm Pain in Quebec French is [peN] (Dict. Hist. du Fran?ais Qu?b?cois, 1998, s.v) The DHFQ has a lengthy entry on pain, naming several types, but not pain court. Nothing in Dictionnaire canadien-fran?ais (1894). A quick web-troll suggests that pain court is, in metropol. Fr. at least, a 'short (not long) loaf of bread'. Perhaps at St. Louis there was some sort of topographic reference, as often with sugar loaf, for example. Alan From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Mar 30 10:59:30 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:59:30 -0500 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: <4068D5BC.6050509@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Alan Hartley wrote: > Pain Court is also a town in Ontario: see > http://www.paincourt.ca/history.htm > > Pain in Quebec French is [peN] (Dict. Hist. du Fran?ais Qu?b?cois, 1998, Not sure what [peN] signifies. In Quebec French "pain" can have two different pronunciations: [pe~] and [pI~]. Michael > s.v) The DHFQ has a lengthy entry on pain, naming several types, but not > pain court. Nothing in Dictionnaire canadien-fran?ais (1894). A quick > web-troll suggests that pain court is, in metropol. Fr. at least, a > 'short (not long) loaf of bread'. Perhaps at St. Louis there was some > sort of topographic reference, as often with sugar loaf, for example. > > Alan > > > From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Tue Mar 30 11:05:26 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:05:26 +0100 Subject: St. Louis? Message-ID: Apparently, according to Allan, because bread was in short supply there. But his explanation of the name struck me as ill-formed in French when I first read the article soe years back (in your sitting room!) and it still strikes me as junk. Maybe if they made bread in in short loaves rather than in baguettes, that would be feasible. 'Shortening' and thereby 'shortbread' has nothing to do qwith shortness; shortening means mixing fat into dough. | 'Shortnin' Bread' may lie behind the 1959 #1 hit 'The Happy Organ' by Dave 'Baby' Cortez (which never got anywhere in the UK). Anthony >>> pankihtamwa at earthlink.net 29/03/2004 19:11:51 >>> Yes, but WHY was St. Louis called 'short bread'? That was what I was wondering. David > Pain Court means "short bread". > > There is a folk-etymology roaming around (perhaps in the article > referenced below) that says that the term means "short of bread". > But that's just what it is. > > The name means "short bread". I believe the name occurs elsewhere in > the Francophone word, maybe in Ontario. It is not a surname as far as I > know. > > Michael > > > > On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > >> All I know about the name for St. Louis in Algonquian is that the Shawnee >> name for it is peenhko (Gatschet's ), and the Mesquakie form is >> pe:ko:neki (a locative). These are apparently borrowings from French 'Pain >> Court'. However, it's been so long since I thought about this, I can't >> remember at the moment why it was named after 'Pain Court', or what 'Pain >> Court' really meant. I think somewhere there's an article that explains >> this. Bob, does this ring a bell? >> >> Dave Costa >> >> > >> > I'm wondering about the name for St. Louis in native languages. For OP, >> > Dorsey has Ppa'hi-z^i'de, "Red Neck", as a term for the inhabitants. >> > Fletcher and La Flesche give Ppahi'-z^ide ttoNwoN, "Red Hair town", with >> > the note "Referring to the color of Governor Clark's hair". I've had it in >> > mind that the latter explanation was confirmed by the Osage form, but I >> > can't seem to find a reference. Can anyone point me to further information >> > on this? I'd be especially interested knowing the name for it in Osage, >> > Kaw, Iowa-Oto, or even Algonquian languages. >> > > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Mar 30 11:24:12 2004 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 06:24:12 -0500 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I checked with two native speakers of French, one from Quebec and one from France, a few months ago concerning the possibility that "Pain Court" could mean "short of bread". The Quebec speaker is an expert in historic New World French terminology and the other is a well-informed professor of French language. Both said that, although one could say "a` court de pain" (short of bread), as in "Je suis a` court de pain" (I'm short of bread), it is impossible for "Pain Court" to mean that. Again, this "short of bread" thing is a folk-etymology. (Bob Hall, cited earlier for his work on this place name and for its meaning "short of bread," is a good archaeologist, but I don't trust his work, necessarily, outside of his field. I have a paper coming out in the fall on Bob's work concerning Jean Nicollet and the Hochunk. It doesn't sing any praises.) Michael On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, Anthony Grant wrote: > Apparently, according to Allan, because bread was in short supply there. But his explanation of the name struck me as ill-formed in French when I first read the article soe years back (in your sitting room!) and it still strikes me as junk. Maybe if they made bread in in short loaves rather than in baguettes, that would be feasible. > > 'Shortening' and thereby 'shortbread' has nothing to do qwith shortness; shortening means mixing fat into dough. | 'Shortnin' Bread' may lie behind the 1959 #1 hit 'The Happy Organ' by Dave 'Baby' Cortez (which never got anywhere in the UK). > > Anthony > > >>> pankihtamwa at earthlink.net 29/03/2004 19:11:51 >>> > Yes, but WHY was St. Louis called 'short bread'? That was what I was > wondering. > > David > > > > Pain Court means "short bread". > > > > There is a folk-etymology roaming around (perhaps in the article > > referenced below) that says that the term means "short of bread". > > But that's just what it is. > > > > The name means "short bread". I believe the name occurs elsewhere in > > the Francophone word, maybe in Ontario. It is not a surname as far as I > > know. > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, David Costa wrote: > > > >> All I know about the name for St. Louis in Algonquian is that the Shawnee > >> name for it is peenhko (Gatschet's ), and the Mesquakie form is > >> pe:ko:neki (a locative). These are apparently borrowings from French 'Pain > >> Court'. However, it's been so long since I thought about this, I can't > >> remember at the moment why it was named after 'Pain Court', or what 'Pain > >> Court' really meant. I think somewhere there's an article that explains > >> this. Bob, does this ring a bell? > >> > >> Dave Costa > >> > >> > > >> > I'm wondering about the name for St. Louis in native languages. For OP, > >> > Dorsey has Ppa'hi-z^i'de, "Red Neck", as a term for the inhabitants. > >> > Fletcher and La Flesche give Ppahi'-z^ide ttoNwoN, "Red Hair town", with > >> > the note "Referring to the color of Governor Clark's hair". I've had it in > >> > mind that the latter explanation was confirmed by the Osage form, but I > >> > can't seem to find a reference. Can anyone point me to further information > >> > on this? I'd be especially interested knowing the name for it in Osage, > >> > Kaw, Iowa-Oto, or even Algonquian languages. > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > From ahartley at d.umn.edu Tue Mar 30 14:03:48 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:03:48 -0600 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Not sure what [peN] signifies. [peN] = [pe~] = [pe~] From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Mar 30 18:37:32 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:37:32 +0200 Subject: St. Louis - Pain Court Message-ID: The site pointed to earlier by Alan (http://www.paincourt.ca/history.htm) gives the following description in its French version: > Paroisse de l?Immacul?e Conception de Pain Court C?est la mis?re extr?me des anc?tres qui a donn? le jour au nom de Pain Court. Les missionnaires disaient : ? Je m?en vais dans la mission du pain court ?, ou tout simplement : ? Je m?en vais ? Pain Court. ? Et le nom prit racine pour toujours... << It seems that the French speaking author doesn't have problems to quote the term _pain court_ in the sense of smth like "short of bread" (although it doesn't look like a real grammatical French rendering, then). Maybe, 'short' bread (=small loafs of bread) actually was an expression used to symbolize 'mis?re' (shortage of bread -> threat of 'famine')? "... panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie..." Alfred From rankin at ku.edu Tue Mar 30 18:50:43 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:50:43 -0600 Subject: Rosetta Stone dot com Message-ID: Does any of you know anything about the company that uses the name RosettaStone.com? There is some interest among some members of the tribal government in Kaw City, OK in contracting with this commercial language teaching outfit for putting together Kaw Language internet-accessible courses. I know nothing about them, but I have trouble seeing just what they would do for the rather large fees they ask. If any of you has had experience with this company or knows anyone who has, I'd like to hear about it. Thanks, Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 30 21:56:55 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:56:55 -0700 Subject: St. Louis - Pain Court In-Reply-To: <4069BE6C.4060208@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, [windows-1252] "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: > > Paroisse de l?Immacul?e Conception de Pain Court > > C?est la mis?re extr?me des anc?tres qui a donn? le jour au nom de Pain > Court. Les missionnaires disaient : ? Je m?en vais dans la mission du > pain court ?, ou tout simplement : ? Je m?en vais ? Pain Court. ? Et le > nom prit racine pour toujours... << > > It seems that the French speaking author doesn't have problems to quote > the term _pain court_ in the sense of smth like "short of bread" > (although it doesn't look like a real grammatical French rendering, > then). Comments on St. Louis as "Pain court" generally pair this with a comment on Ste. Genevieve as "Misere," suggesting a parallel. It would be interesting to know what the first source is that suggests this. I agree that taking something like "a short loaf" as symbolic of want or perhaps just meagerness seems more consistent with French syntax than other possibilities. In any event, any explanation of the name as applied to St. Louis has to account for its use in three North American placenames dating to French settlements in the area, and probably also to its use in two street names in France. It seems clear that some metaphorical meaning might be involved. It is also possible that the name might reflect the French nickname or dit name of an early resident, though it seems more likely that Paincort as a nickname reflects the same metaphor as the placenames than that the placenames derive from the nickname. This seems likely because of the number of instances of Paincourt as a placename and the tendency to explain it in ways that imply shortages of food rather than as a nickname. Finally, if the sense is taken simply as short bread without too much emphasis on what that might mean, it could represent a none-too-relevant play on an unrelated phrase in another language with a similar sound. This seems less likely because the name does reappear as a placename, and because Native American versions of St. Louis seem to be derived from the French and not vice versa. If we include Allan Taylor's Gros Ventre case, the Native American versions include not just borrowings of the sound sequence by calques of the sense. On the other hand, the Omaha(-Ponca) name might well involve a play on pain [peN]. Something like [peN] might well suggest an underlying ppahi(N) to an Omaha-Ponca speaker, since h tends to be lost in the context V'hV and since ai contracts to e. This is basically Rory's suggestion, of course. This might then lead to various wordplays that would accomodate that sequence, even if they had meanings that were unrelated to the original, but relevant somehow to the context in a humorous way. If Omaha-Ponca speakers were in the habit of referring to St. Louis as Ppe ~ Ppa(h)i(N), rendering Pain(court), they might easily interpret this as 'Headhair, Scalp' or 'Neck' at the first stage, and then adapt this first to ppahi(N) z^ide 'red hair' explained as a reference to Clark and later reexplain even that as 'red neck', even if the word for 'hair' or 'neck' weren't quite right. The 'redneck' explanation probably dates to the 1900s, or subsequent to whenever the term redneck became common. Some of the same forms might apply in other Siouan languages in the area, and so Rory is quite right to ask after these. It occurs to me that personal names such as "Batchi" [bac^hi?] for Sarpy and "Jo" for Joseph LaFlesche has some similar potential. The potential here is along the lines of the ethnonym Jew in Winnebago or the word for 'turkey' in various Muskogean languages, both of which are explicitly attested elsewhere. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 30 21:59:20 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:59:20 -0700 Subject: St. Louis - Pain Court In-Reply-To: Message-ID: pgp is no longer available on this machine; please use gnu gpg From lcumberl at indiana.edu Tue Mar 30 21:58:25 2004 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:58:25 -0500 Subject: Rosetta Stone dot com In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164E03@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Bob, A few years back when I was at the AAA conference in Toronto doing a poster session on our Institute's software, there was a Rosetta Stone exhibit at the same time and I had a chance to go through their demonstration. My impression was that, as far as indigenous langauges go, - and I emphasize that this is not current information -- they were largely style over substance. Their program was a template that they used for any and all languages, very colorful, lots of nice photos, and two voice print bars across the top of the screen that showed the native speaker's wave form and then yours, so you could compare your effort to the native speaker's. Watching other people play around with the program, I observed that virtually no one knew what to do with the wave forms (surprise, surprise!). The capacity for vocabulary is very limited, and as far as I could see, there was no grammar at all. Later, at a Stabilizing Indigenous Languages conference, I spoke with some members of a Seminole band from Florida who had used them and were unhappy with the results. And, as you observe, the expense. Rosetta Stone was not a turnkey operation, it turns out. In addition to providing the speakers, the tribe had to provide a suitable recording environment, some of the recording equipment, and a few other things that I can't recall now, all at their own (additional) expense. I should point out that my reservations about Rosetta Stone have nothing to do with the fact that we do software development here -- ours are not commercial products and we are not in competition with Rosetta Stone. It just seemed to me that the product didn't have much depth and cost an awful lot of money for what it was. Linda Quoting "Rankin, Robert L" : > Does any of you know anything about the company that uses the name > RosettaStone.com? There is some interest among some members of the > tribal government in Kaw City, OK in contracting with this commercial > language teaching outfit for putting together Kaw Language > internet-accessible courses. I know nothing about them, but I have > trouble seeing just what they would do for the rather large fees they > ask. If any of you has had experience with this company or knows anyone > who has, I'd like to hear about it. > > Thanks, > > Bob > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 30 23:15:52 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:15:52 -0700 Subject: PGP/GPG Message In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not sure what this was about, but please disregard it. On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, Koontz John E wrote: > pgp is no longer available on this machine; please use gnu gpg From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Mar 30 23:50:07 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:50:07 -0600 Subject: St. Louis - Pain Court Message-ID: I agree with John's excellent summary of the question. Just one small quibble: > If Omaha-Ponca speakers were in the habit of referring to > St. Louis as Ppe ~ Ppa(h)i(N), rendering Pain(court), they might easily > interpret this as 'Headhair, Scalp' or 'Neck' at the first stage, and then > adapt this first to ppahi(N) z^ide 'red hair' explained as a reference to > Clark and later reexplain even that as 'red neck', even if the word for > 'hair' or 'neck' weren't quite right. The 'redneck' explanation probably > dates to the 1900s, or subsequent to whenever the term redneck became > common. [...] The 'red neck' interpretation comes from Dorsey, who I believe died in 1894. Therefore, this Omaha word pre-dates the 1900s. If American English 'redneck' wasn't coined until the 1900s, then the Omaha didn't get it from us. Although I have speculated that the American English term might have derived from an earlier international Indian calque "red neck" for the men of St. Louis, translated into English during a period when the Indians were still fluent in their native tongues but forced to use English in an English-speaking world, the Omaha and English 'redneck' ethnonyms are more likely coincidental. Sunburned white people often display flaming red necks against creamy white skin where their shirts have been in a striking contrast unmatched by other races. This designation for whites may have occurred to more darkly pigmented people more than once. I would guess that the "red neck" term probably preceded the "red hair" term in Omaha. They would have wanted a term for St. Louis and its traders long before Governor Clark. Rory Koontz John E cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: St. Louis - Pain Court owner-siouan at lists.c olorado.edu 03/30/2004 03:56 PM Please respond to siouan On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, [windows-1252] "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: > > Paroisse de l?Immacul?e Conception de Pain Court > > C?est la mis?re extr?me des anc?tres qui a donn? le jour au nom de Pain > Court. Les missionnaires disaient : ? Je m?en vais dans la mission du > pain court ?, ou tout simplement : ? Je m?en vais ? Pain Court. ? Et le > nom prit racine pour toujours... << > > It seems that the French speaking author doesn't have problems to quote > the term _pain court_ in the sense of smth like "short of bread" > (although it doesn't look like a real grammatical French rendering, > then). Comments on St. Louis as "Pain court" generally pair this with a comment on Ste. Genevieve as "Misere," suggesting a parallel. It would be interesting to know what the first source is that suggests this. I agree that taking something like "a short loaf" as symbolic of want or perhaps just meagerness seems more consistent with French syntax than other possibilities. In any event, any explanation of the name as applied to St. Louis has to account for its use in three North American placenames dating to French settlements in the area, and probably also to its use in two street names in France. It seems clear that some metaphorical meaning might be involved. It is also possible that the name might reflect the French nickname or dit name of an early resident, though it seems more likely that Paincort as a nickname reflects the same metaphor as the placenames than that the placenames derive from the nickname. This seems likely because of the number of instances of Paincourt as a placename and the tendency to explain it in ways that imply shortages of food rather than as a nickname. Finally, if the sense is taken simply as short bread without too much emphasis on what that might mean, it could represent a none-too-relevant play on an unrelated phrase in another language with a similar sound. This seems less likely because the name does reappear as a placename, and because Native American versions of St. Louis seem to be derived from the French and not vice versa. If we include Allan Taylor's Gros Ventre case, the Native American versions include not just borrowings of the sound sequence by calques of the sense. On the other hand, the Omaha(-Ponca) name might well involve a play on pain [peN]. Something like [peN] might well suggest an underlying ppahi(N) to an Omaha-Ponca speaker, since h tends to be lost in the context V'hV and since ai contracts to e. This is basically Rory's suggestion, of course. This might then lead to various wordplays that would accomodate that sequence, even if they had meanings that were unrelated to the original, but relevant somehow to the context in a humorous way. If Omaha-Ponca speakers were in the habit of referring to St. Louis as Ppe ~ Ppa(h)i(N), rendering Pain(court), they might easily interpret this as 'Headhair, Scalp' or 'Neck' at the first stage, and then adapt this first to ppahi(N) z^ide 'red hair' explained as a reference to Clark and later reexplain even that as 'red neck', even if the word for 'hair' or 'neck' weren't quite right. The 'redneck' explanation probably dates to the 1900s, or subsequent to whenever the term redneck became common. Some of the same forms might apply in other Siouan languages in the area, and so Rory is quite right to ask after these. It occurs to me that personal names such as "Batchi" [bac^hi?] for Sarpy and "Jo" for Joseph LaFlesche has some similar potential. The potential here is along the lines of the ethnonym Jew in Winnebago or the word for 'turkey' in various Muskogean languages, both of which are explicitly attested elsewhere. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 31 07:13:40 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 00:13:40 -0700 Subject: St. Louis - Pain Court; Ndeck and Other ppahV forms. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > I agree with John's excellent summary of the question. Just one > small quibble: ... > > The 'red neck' interpretation comes from Dorsey, who I believe > died in 1894. Therefore, this Omaha word pre-dates the 1900s. Quite right. I had lost track of your comment that the 'red neck' version was in Dorsey. I don't actually know the first date of attestation of 'redneck' in English, though perhaps the OED does. Note, as far as the issue of OP terms for 'neck': Swetland 1991:125 pa'hi (/ppa'hi/) 'neck' Swetland 1991:269 tai' (/tta'(h)i/ 'back of the head' These forms are presumably taken from Fletcher & LaFlesche 1972:107-109 and vetted by Elizabeth Stabler, who worked with Mark. Dorsey also lists ppa'hi, sometimes ppahi', 'neck'. An interesting construction is ppa'hi=xti=(khe) 'right on (the) neck'. I didn't find ttai or ttahi in the texts. It may be that ppahi has expanded at the expense of ttahi in OP. Apart from ppa'hi 'neck, hair of the head' (Swetland), I find ppa (?), pha (?) 'bitter', ppai' or ppai' 'sharp', ppahiN 'quill', bahiN 'porcupine'. In the Dorsey texts 'hair' is always hiN' '(animal) body hair' or na(N)z^i'ha 'human (head) hair'. The compound tte'ppahi 'buffalo neck' occurs. The inclusion of some of these forms will make sense with further reading. In Osage LaFlesche lists ppa 'bitter', ppahi' 'sharp', ppa'hiN 'porcupine', and instances of ppa'hiN and ppahu' as '(head) hair'. I also found tta'hu 'neck', but cce'ppahi (sic for ceppahu?) 'neck of buffalo'. OP ppai' 'sharp' is sometimes considered to appear as -ppe in OP maNspe 'axe' < *maNzeppe 'axe', but cf. Osage maNhiNspe, which suggests a different pattern of contraction. Kaw has ppa(a)'hi 'sharp', also ppahi' (JOD), ppa'hiN 'porcupine; hair', ppahu' 'hair of the human head below the crest'. 'Neck' is given as tta'hu. Quapaw has ppahi' 'head', ppahi' 'bitter', ppahiN' 'porcupine', and ttai'tta 'neck'. Note that the possible constituent elements here are ppa 'head, nose', hi < *hu 'stalk, stem, tree', hiN 'body hair, fur'. I haven't looked tonight to see how these terms play out further afield than Dhegiha, though I recall that some of them do occur, in similar forms. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 31 07:26:16 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 00:26:16 -0700 Subject: St. Louis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > Well here's an outside possibility! There is an entry in > Francis La Flesche's Osage dictionary: > > zhiN'da, it was not. > > I've never run across this in OP, and there doesn't seem > to be any elaboration on it in the Osage dictionary either. I'm pretty sure that this is an example of a class of form sometimes found in LaFlesche's work - the Osage dicitonary or glossing of Omaha songs in Fletcher & LaFlesche, etc., that arises from trying to make sense of a segment of a larger sequence without parsing it properly. In this case, I suspect the negative enclitic =(a)z^i has been fused with some following element. I don't know what the following element is, these enclitic complexes being one of the places where the various Dhegiha languages differ strongly, and the context being absent. However, I did find iN-da, glossed 'I am', which is also fairly improbable. To be perfectly fair Dorsey does this sort of thing, too, but I usually encounter it in his work in texts where it is easier to correct for. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Mar 31 14:58:16 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan Hartley) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 08:58:16 -0600 Subject: St. Louis - Pain Court; Ndeck and Other ppahV forms. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > I don't actually know the first date of attestation of 'redneck' in > English, though perhaps the OED does. U.S. A member of the white rural labouring class of the southern States; one whose attitudes are considered characteristic of this class; freq., a reactionary. Originally, and still often, derogatory, but now also used with more sympathy for the aspirations of the rural American. 1830 A. ROYALL Southern Tour I. 148 This may be ascribed to the Red Necks, a name bestowed upon the Presbyterians in Fayetteville. 1893 H. A. SHANDS Some Peculiarities of Speech in Mississippi 53 Red-neck,..a name applied by the better class of people to the poorer inhabitants of the rural districts. 1904 Dialect Notes II. 420 Redneck, n., An uncouth countryman. 'The hill-billies came from the hills, and the rednecks from the swamps.' etc. The current revision hasn't reached R, so there may well be earlier examples (perhaps including Episcopalians and animists). Alan From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Wed Mar 31 15:16:21 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:16:21 +0100 Subject: St. Louis - Pain Court; Ndeck and Other ppahV forms. Message-ID: Regarding 'redneck': Note also that Afrikaans, and latterly South African English, has rooinek, literally 'red neck', for an unsophisticated rural person. Anthony. >>> ahartley at d.umn.edu 31/03/2004 15:58:16 >>> Koontz John E wrote: > I don't actually know the first date of attestation of 'redneck' in > English, though perhaps the OED does. U.S. A member of the white rural labouring class of the southern States; one whose attitudes are considered characteristic of this class; freq., a reactionary. Originally, and still often, derogatory, but now also used with more sympathy for the aspirations of the rural American. 1830 A. ROYALL Southern Tour I. 148 This may be ascribed to the Red Necks, a name bestowed upon the Presbyterians in Fayetteville. 1893 H. A. SHANDS Some Peculiarities of Speech in Mississippi 53 Red-neck,..a name applied by the better class of people to the poorer inhabitants of the rural districts. 1904 Dialect Notes II. 420 Redneck, n., An uncouth countryman. 'The hill-billies came from the hills, and the rednecks from the swamps.' etc. The current revision hasn't reached R, so there may well be earlier examples (perhaps including Episcopalians and animists). Alan From rankin at ku.edu Wed Mar 31 16:07:33 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:07:33 -0600 Subject: Rosetta Stone dot com Message-ID: Thanks much, Linda!! This is very much what I suspected. I just wanted to double-check. Best, Bob -----Original Message----- From: lcumberl at indiana.edu [mailto:lcumberl at indiana.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 3:58 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Rosetta Stone dot com Bob, A few years back when I was at the AAA conference in Toronto doing a poster session on our Institute's software, there was a Rosetta Stone exhibit at the same time and I had a chance to go through their demonstration. My impression was that, as far as indigenous langauges go, - and I emphasize that this is not current information -- they were largely style over substance. Their program was a template that they used for any and all languages, very colorful, lots of nice photos, and two voice print bars across the top of the screen that showed the native speaker's wave form and then yours, so you could compare your effort to the native speaker's. Watching other people play around with the program, I observed that virtually no one knew what to do with the wave forms (surprise, surprise!). The capacity for vocabulary is very limited, and as far as I could see, there was no grammar at all. Later, at a Stabilizing Indigenous Languages conference, I spoke with some members of a Seminole band from Florida who had used them and were unhappy with the results. And, as you observe, the expense. Rosetta Stone was not a turnkey operation, it turns out. In addition to providing the speakers, the tribe had to provide a suitable recording environment, some of the recording equipment, and a few other things that I can't recall now, all at their own (additional) expense. I should point out that my reservations about Rosetta Stone have nothing to do with the fact that we do software development here -- ours are not commercial products and we are not in competition with Rosetta Stone. It just seemed to me that the product didn't have much depth and cost an awful lot of money for what it was. Linda Quoting "Rankin, Robert L" : > Does any of you know anything about the company that uses the name > RosettaStone.com? There is some interest among some members of the > tribal government in Kaw City, OK in contracting with this commercial > language teaching outfit for putting together Kaw Language > internet-accessible courses. I know nothing about them, but I have > trouble seeing just what they would do for the rather large fees they > ask. If any of you has had experience with this company or knows > anyone who has, I'd like to hear about it. > > Thanks, > > Bob > > >