From poulsente at hotmail.com Sat Oct 2 17:30:44 2004 From: poulsente at hotmail.com (tom poulsen) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 11:30:44 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BARudes at aol.com Sat Oct 2 19:51:33 2004 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 15:51:33 EDT Subject: No subject Message-ID: You did not get bumped nor did you ask the wrong question. I know that I received your inquiry from the SiouanList. I think it is simply that no one has an answer to you question about the word nu ka shay. I do not recognize it as a Cherokee or a Tutelo-Saponi term, but of course, the information available on Tutelo-Saponi is extremely limited. Blair A. Rudes -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 2 21:18:12 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 14:18:12 -0700 Subject: No subject In-Reply-To: <15b.405a6183.2e9060c5@aol.com> Message-ID: This is technically not a Siouan question, but since I have been a member of this list for a couple of years, and since the only Amerindian language I've really gotten into studying thus far is Cherokee, I'm wondering if anyone out there knows of a list similar to this for Cherokee or Iroquoian languages in general, or if any of you have studied or know someone studying the Cherokee (Tsalagi) language. I have tried to get involved in Siouan linguistics, but without much success. But I have continued self-study of Cherokee and Hawaiian, so if anyone knows of similar lists or resources on these languages, which would be much more helpful to me, I'd welcome your response and information. Thanks, Dave Kaufman dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com BARudes at aol.com wrote: You did not get bumped nor did you ask the wrong question. I know that I received your inquiry from the SiouanList. I think it is simply that no one has an answer to you question about the word nu ka shay. I do not recognize it as a Cherokee or a Tutelo-Saponi term, but of course, the information available on Tutelo-Saponi is extremely limited. Blair A. Rudes --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sat Oct 2 23:03:56 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 18:03:56 -0500 Subject: naka$ay Message-ID: > The word nu ka shay, nu as in nut, ka as in cut and shay as in aye, my cousin said that his mother used to scream it at him when she was furious with him. Anyone have any thoughts on what it could mean? Hi Tom, I ran all the variant spellings of this I could think of through Giulia Oliverio's Tutelo (YesaN) dictionary but came up with very little. No entry for this word per-se. Within Siouan, however, the word naka (sometimes with the first "a" nasalized and pronounced like "uh" as you indicate) is nearly always the verb for "sit" or "be sitting". I would hazard a guess that the expression probably means something very close to "SIT DOWN!!" As in "siddown an' shaddup". :-) Just what a harassed mom might say to a pesky kid. This is just a guess, but it at least fits the context and most of the word you gave. There is also another pair of verbs that are a little similar. akaknaka 'to go out' akaknakise 'go out of a lodge' So a translation as "Get out!" is also a possibility, I suppose. The consonant you write as "sh", as in English 'fresh' is uncommon in Tutelo as written by most of the transcribers, since this sound evolved into "ch" in Tutelo. But there was a certain amount of variability in the pronunciation of "s" as "sh" in some of the documents. Bob From poulsente at hotmail.com Mon Oct 4 18:40:50 2004 From: poulsente at hotmail.com (tom poulsen) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 12:40:50 -0600 Subject: naka$ay Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon Oct 4 19:22:17 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 14:22:17 -0500 Subject: naka$ay Message-ID: [RLR: ] When you hit the "reply" key it goes to the whole Siouan list. If you want to send to a particular individual, you'll need to type in their email address and remove the Siouan at lists.colorado.edu from the address line. Thank you for the reply. I have been meaning to call but since you replied , here's an update, so far the person with the Tyutelo tape from California has not replied to my emauils, would it be possible to obtain a copy of that tape from you? [RLR: ] It would be best if Marianne Mithun gave permission for me to share her recording. If she does, I can make a copy and send it to you. Also have you contacted our Canadian Archives for any soyuian materials, they may have somethingthere, aswell I had sent you 2 references to the Shay papersa, which had some early kansas -quapaw materials did you recieve them? [RLR: ] I haven't been able to access the Shea papers site. There must have been a typo in the URL or maybe the site was down when I tried. I'll check it again. Best, Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lcumberl at indiana.edu Wed Oct 6 11:38:39 2004 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 06:38:39 -0500 Subject: "vertitive" source identified Message-ID: John Koontz recently reminded me of Allan Taylor's 1976 IJAL article on motion verbs and in re-reading it I found this, regarding a prefix he identifies as having the underlying shape k: "Stems derived by this prefix relate the mootion to one's home or to an earlier location. I shall call stems of this kind "vertitive," using the term introduced by Hollow in his unpublished Mandan dictionary." In the footnote, he cites Hollow's 1965 Ph.D. dissertation, and further states, "The term was first coined by Kaufman, although the only use in print, in this precise meaning, is by Hollow." [IJAL 42:288] I think this pretty well nails it down. Linda From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Oct 7 13:01:01 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 08:01:01 -0500 Subject: "vertitive" source identified In-Reply-To: <41653CDF.20102@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: > Thanks to Terry and (and to Linda for her dogged research), 'vertitive' > and 'voltative' will be going to Oxford: we'll have to wait to see > whether they pass editorial muster for inclusion in the OED. Not to forget 'versive.' From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Oct 7 12:55:59 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 07:55:59 -0500 Subject: "vertitive" source identified In-Reply-To: <1097062719.4163d93f888ce@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Thanks to Terry and (and to Linda for her dogged research), 'vertitive' and 'voltative' will be going to Oxford: we'll have to wait to see whether they pass editorial muster for inclusion in the OED. Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Oct 7 18:31:52 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:31:52 -0600 Subject: "vertitive" source identified In-Reply-To: <41653CDF.20102@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2004, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > Thanks to Terry and (and to Linda for her dogged research), 'vertitive' > and 'voltative' will be going to Oxford: we'll have to wait to see > whether they pass editorial muster for inclusion in the OED. I wonder about instrumental as a term for a morpheme indicating the instrument (hand, mouth, foot, etc.) or modality (force, pushing, etc.) used, or sometimes an impersonal agency (heat, wind, etc.) or for a form embodying such a morpheme. I assume it's there for a nominal case form. From mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu Thu Oct 7 19:47:37 2004 From: mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Marianne Mithun) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:47:37 -0700 Subject: "vertitive" source identified In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've generally used 'means and manner' affixes for these, because their functions do blend this way. And they are not referential in the way that nouns in an instrumental case are. Marianne Mithun --On Thursday, October 07, 2004 12:31 PM -0600 Koontz John E wrote: > On Thu, 7 Oct 2004, Alan H. Hartley wrote: >> Thanks to Terry and (and to Linda for her dogged research), 'vertitive' >> and 'voltative' will be going to Oxford: we'll have to wait to see >> whether they pass editorial muster for inclusion in the OED. > > I wonder about instrumental as a term for a morpheme indicating the > instrument (hand, mouth, foot, etc.) or modality (force, pushing, etc.) > used, or sometimes an impersonal agency (heat, wind, etc.) or for a form > embodying such a morpheme. I assume it's there for a nominal case form. > From lcumberl at indiana.edu Thu Oct 7 19:41:40 2004 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 14:41:40 -0500 Subject: "vertitive" source identified In-Reply-To: <41653CDF.20102@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Quoting "Alan H. Hartley" : > Thanks to Terry and (and to Linda for her dogged research), 'vertitive' > and 'voltative' will be going to Oxford: we'll have to wait to see > whether they pass editorial muster for inclusion in the OED. > > Alan > > > Nice! I'd be glad to see those terms included in a volume like Matthews' or Crystal's linguistic dictionaries next time they get updated. Anyone know how to propose that? Linda From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri Oct 8 00:50:16 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 19:50:16 -0500 Subject: "vertitive" source identified In-Reply-To: <1097178100.41659bf4b59d7@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: > Nice! I'd be glad to see those terms included in a volume like Matthews' or > Crystal's linguistic dictionaries next time they get updated. Anyone know how to > propose that? Crystal says in his 1992 preface "I would very much welcome reactions from readers, especially relating to terms which I have omitted to include." His email address is crystal at dial.pipex.com (Linguistics, University of Wales, Bangor). Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Oct 8 04:34:13 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 22:34:13 -0600 Subject: Instrumentals (was Re: "vertitive" ...) In-Reply-To: <54C731D4B7FF00F7D29DC3B9@mithun.ucsb.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2004, Marianne Mithun wrote: > I've generally used 'means and manner' affixes for these, because their > functions do blend this way. And they are not referential in the way that > nouns in an instrumental case are. This is certainly generally true, but the term instrumental is somewhat embedded in Siouanist terminology, and, I think elsewhere in Americanist usage, too. Just out of curiosity, has anyone seen a Siouan instrumental prefix used in a referential way? I don't have any specific examples in mind, but I do have a nagging impression I have seen some instances that were a bit out of the "non-referential" range. The best I can come up with at the moment is use of OP dha- (cf. Da ya-) with the gloss in Dorsey of 'to speak of as ...', the specific example being dhaxu'be 'to speak of as holy', where xube (is this xube' or xu'be - I forget) is 'be holy'. This reminds me of the English usage - not very productive, I think - 'to X-mouth' as in 'to bad-mouth' or 'to poor-mouth'. This isn't what I'd think of as referential, but it does seem to treat the instrumental as more of a main verb. I suppose that causative uses of Da yu- are more or less comparable. If referential uses exist, this would be somewhat analogous to the locatives occurring governing (or implying) both peripheral and central constituents, which I think is certainly the case, at least throughout Mississippi Valley Siouan. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Oct 8 05:24:31 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 23:24:31 -0600 Subject: Procedural Note: Deleting Addresses from the List Message-ID: Recently certain subscribers' addresses have begun to generate messages in response to postings on the list indicating that they are no longer valid. In such cases I have deleted the offending email address from the list of recipients of the list. This is something of a new development. In the good old days addresses mostly disappeared fairly soundlessly. For example, the late Ken Hale is still subscribing to this list, and MIT has never even complained that his mailbox is getting full. As a result, in deference to his unexpressed wishes and with the implicit concent of MIT I have continued his membership. Perhaps MIT has found a way to forward mail into the hereafter. I suspect this new development of closing accounts audibly is a result of greater care being paid to email management in these days of rampant spam and malware. In any event, I thought I ought warn the remaining members that if their mail service assures me several times that their address is invalid, I will delete them from the list. The problem is that in these cases I can't very well inform them that I have done this. So I don't. If they happen to still be there and notice that the list is awfully quiet, I recommend they look at the list archive at http://www.linguistlist.org to see if there have been recent posts. They can also email me asking if things hae been quiet. If the silence turns out to be only local and they wish to rejoin the list, I will be happy to add any address, old or new, that the subscription program believes to be valid. Note that I do not delete addresses that are merely reported by the CU mail service to be non-functioning. Ths generally only means that there is some temporary problem with the member's mail service. These temporary problems have been known to go on for a very long time, but I try to wait them out. I seem to recall a time (long) before the Siouan list when email in much of Poland was out for a month or more, and I keep that example in mind. I do delete functioning addresses if they go on for some time informing me that the mailbox is full. I try to wait this out, too, but, especially with free mail services like hotmail.com, I don't wait forever. Apparently MSN is now less tolerant with untended hotmail addreses, too. Several of the defunct addresses recently have been hotmail addresses. Note also that I now employ a sort of Turing Test on prospective new members of the list. Any email address that can convince me that it has a linguistic bent and is of sound mind is admitted. A surprising number of applications come from invalid addresses or fail to respond. Some of these may be very timid or private Siouanists who are not sure of their email addresses, but I think most of them have been spam or attempts to connect the list to a spam source. One or two have really just wanted lessons in Lakota and were referred elsewhere. JEK From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Fri Oct 8 06:26:44 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 08:26:44 +0200 Subject: Listserver down? Message-ID: For a couple of days, I no longer am able to access the archive listserver http://www.linguistlist.org although my browser seems to be o.k. What can be wrong? Alfred From rankin at ku.edu Fri Oct 8 16:38:03 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 11:38:03 -0500 Subject: Instrumentals (was Re: "vertitive" ...) Message-ID: I'm glad someone is addressing one of my major annoyances. How do I talk about the prefixes pa-, na-, ya-, po-, ka-, yu-, etc. in the same paragraph as the prefix i- on verbs?? I can't use 'instrumental' for both, yet that is how many Siouanists have handled it in the past. In one paper I used 'instrumental' vs. 'instrumentive', (I'll let you guess which was which) but I suspect that only confuses readers more. Bob > I've generally used 'means and manner' affixes for these, because > their functions do blend this way. And they are not referential in the > way that nouns in an instrumental case are. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Oct 8 17:22:37 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 11:22:37 -0600 Subject: Listserver down? In-Reply-To: <41663324.90306@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Oct 2004, "Alfred W. Tüting" wrote: > For a couple of days, I no longer am able to access the archive > listserver http://www.linguistlist.org although my browser seems to be o.k. > What can be wrong? It worked for me just now. I wonder if you could be having some sort of firewall or related security issues. From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 8 20:24:03 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 13:24:03 -0700 Subject: Hiraca and Hocak Message-ID: Hello, I'm wondering what the status is right now of work on the Hiraca (Hidatsa) and Hocak (Winnebago) languages. I have not seen list email correspondence from John Boyle recently, whom I know was working on Hiraca (at least he was a couple of years ago when I visited Chicago). I wouldn't mind getting hold of any new documentation, dictionaries, updated grammars, or any other materials which may have been recently published, or which I may obtain for my own library and self-study purposes. I recently sent an email regarding Cherokee and Hawaiian. (I take it by the lack of response that there are no Siouanists out there also delving into these non-Siouan languages, or know of anyone who does.) These are the two indigenous languages I'm putting most of my efforts into right now, but I always keep an eye on Hiraca, Hocak, and some other Siouan languages as well, although I'm not formally or professionally involved in working on these languages. It's strictly for my own information and personal interest. Thanks. Dave Kaufman dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpboyle at uchicago.edu Fri Oct 8 23:53:17 2004 From: jpboyle at uchicago.edu (John Boyle) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 18:53:17 -0500 Subject: Hidatsa update Message-ID: >Hello, > >I'm wondering what the status is right now of work on the Hiraca >(Hidatsa) and Hocak (Winnebago) languages. I have not seen list >email correspondence from John Boyle recently, whom I know was >working on Hiraca (at least he was a couple of years ago when I >visited Chicago). I wouldn't mind getting hold of any new >documentation, dictionaries, updated grammars, or any other >materials which may have been recently published, or which I may >obtain for my own library and self-study purposes. > >I recently sent an email regarding Cherokee and Hawaiian. (I take >it by the lack of response that there are no Siouanists out there >also delving into these non-Siouan languages, or know of anyone who >does.) These are the two indigenous languages I'm putting most of >my efforts into right now, but I always keep an eye on Hiraca, >Hocak, and some other Siouan languages as well, although I'm not >formally or professionally involved in working on these languages. >It's strictly for my own information and personal interest. > >Thanks. > >Dave Kaufman >dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com > > > Hi All, Well, I'm still working on Hidatsa. I have just completed a dissertation chapter on relative clauses which is more or less ready to go. It is pretty theoretical with a lot of syntactic trees, but if anyone would like a copy, I'd be happy to send a pdf. I have also spent a good chunk of the summer entering Wes Jones' Word List/Dictionary into an excel spread sheet, so that it is searchable. Unfortunately, I use fonts that are probably not compatible for PC users. I hope to do a find and replace in the near future so that it is available for the schools on the reservation and anyone else who would like a copy. Throughout the coming year, I plan on checking all of the words and adding more to the list. All in all, it is a really good word list although some of the non-traditional words are not agreed upon by some people, so we'll want to flag those. We are also working on lesson plans and grammar exercises for the schools to ensure that we are in line with all of the "No Child Left Behind" guidelines. In addition, we hope to be completing a "Sketch" for Lincolm on Hidatsa within the next year and a half. With regards to texts, I have completed interlinear breakdowns for all of the Lowie and Earth Lodge texts in addition to several others, giving us a total of 13 completed texts (which is over 1150 lines). There is still some inconsistency within the texts as my analysis has changed over the years, so I wouldn't feel so comfortable giving these out. In addition, some of the Hidatsa feel that some of these stories shouldn't be told to outsiders, so we still have to work through that culturally sensitive point. Other than that, things are going well on Ft. Berthold. The new immersion programs are working well for the younger children and the high school programs are becoming more uniform in their content. With regards to Hocank, I assume that Helmbrecht is still actively working on the language and I know that there are very active language revitalization programs going on on all of the reservations. So that's what's going an as far as I know. All the best, John (Boyle not Koontz) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 9 23:54:02 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 16:54:02 -0700 Subject: Hidatsa update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, John B., for your response and update on Hiraca. Glad to hear from you and know you're still involved in the tribe's efforts to revitalize it. Also, I wanted to ask the list about Biloxi. I was informed that there are a lot of texts available. I'm not sure if it's still spoken or if it's one of the unfortunate extinct Siouan languages. Also, I'm wondering if anyone is currently involved in its research. Since I'm still willing and able to work on a Siouan language, and since right now it's rather difficult financially for me to travel across the country to do fieldwork, I feel I'd be in a very good position to study an "extinct" language which involves only written materials and texts. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can get more info on this language and its current status and where I may be able to get hold of copies of its texts? Thanks. Dave Kaufman John Boyle wrote: Hello, I'm wondering what the status is right now of work on the Hiraca (Hidatsa) and Hocak (Winnebago) languages. I have not seen list email correspondence from John Boyle recently, whom I know was working on Hiraca (at least he was a couple of years ago when I visited Chicago). I wouldn't mind getting hold of any new documentation, dictionaries, updated grammars, or any other materials which may have been recently published, or which I may obtain for my own library and self-study purposes. I recently sent an email regarding Cherokee and Hawaiian. (I take it by the lack of response that there are no Siouanists out there also delving into these non-Siouan languages, or know of anyone who does.) These are the two indigenous languages I'm putting most of my efforts into right now, but I always keep an eye on Hiraca, Hocak, and some other Siouan languages as well, although I'm not formally or professionally involved in working on these languages. It's strictly for my own information and personal interest. Thanks. Dave Kaufmandvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com --------------------------------- Hi All, Well, I'm still working on Hidatsa. I have just completed a dissertation chapter on relative clauses which is more or less ready to go. It is pretty theoretical with a lot of syntactic trees, but if anyone would like a copy, I'd be happy to send a pdf. I have also spent a good chunk of the summer entering Wes Jones' Word List/Dictionary into an excel spread sheet, so that it is searchable. Unfortunately, I use fonts that are probably not compatible for PC users. I hope to do a find and replace in the near future so that it is available for the schools on the reservation and anyone else who would like a copy. Throughout the coming year, I plan on checking all of the words and adding more to the list. All in all, it is a really good word list although some of the non-traditional words are not agreed upon by some people, so we'll want to flag those. We are also working on lesson plans and grammar exercises for the schools to ensure that we are in line with all of the "No Child Left Behind" guidelines. In addition, we hope to be completing a "Sketch" for Lincolm on Hidatsa within the next year and a half. With regards to texts, I have completed interlinear breakdowns for all of the Lowie and Earth Lodge texts in addition to several others, giving us a total of 13 completed texts (which is over 1150 lines). There is still some inconsistency within the texts as my analysis has changed over the years, so I wouldn't feel so comfortable giving these out. In addition, some of the Hidatsa feel that some of these stories shouldn't be told to outsiders, so we still have to work through that culturally sensitive point. Other than that, things are going well on Ft. Berthold. The new immersion programs are working well for the younger children and the high school programs are becoming more uniform in their content. With regards to Hocank, I assume that Helmbrecht is still actively working on the language and I know that there are very active language revitalization programs going on on all of the reservations. So that's what's going an as far as I know. All the best, John (Boyle not Koontz) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sun Oct 10 14:57:51 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 09:57:51 -0500 Subject: Biloxi update Message-ID: The place to start with Biloxi is John R. Swanton and James Owen Dorsey, A Dictionary of the Biloxi and Ofo Languages. BAE Bulletin 47, 1912. Paula Einaudi's U. of Colorado dissertation from about '74 is based on D&S and is a good starting place for further work. I reviewed the book for IJAL and have written a few additional papers on Biloxi and Ofo. The Smithsonian has Dorsey's original Biloxi field notes which may contain additional information. Gatschet did a little earlier field work incorporated by Dorsey. Mary Haas located a woman in about 1934 who could remember a few words of Biloxi and she published a paper in IJAL in about 1968 entitled "The last words of Biloxi". Randy Graczyk has a nice paper on Biloxi switch-reference particles in MS form. There is much about Biloxi morphosyntax that needs clarification. Einaudi's sketch is a beginning, but the definitive Biloxi grammar is yet to be written. I don't think another "dissertation length" treatise would cover it. It is pretty much a career's worth of work for somebody. Not me -- I have noodled around with it, but I'm too old and have too much on my plate already. I hope you or someone else will work with what's available. Hint: Take Dorsey's two series of stop consonants (plain and with subscript dots) seriously. They represent distinct phonological series that were missed by virtually everybody after Dorsey. Another hint: A single linguist per language guarantees totally inadequate coverage. There is still much to analyze in Dakotan, and numerous linguists have been trying to understand how that language works for well over 150 years. The other Siouan languages haven't seen nearly as much work. There's plenty to do with both texts and speakers in a variety of languages, and if it's done right, both speakers and linguists will appreciate the effort. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Kaufman" To: Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 6:54 PM Subject: Re: Hidatsa update > Thanks, John B., for your response and update on Hiraca. Glad to hear from you and know you're still involved in the tribe's efforts to revitalize it. > > Also, I wanted to ask the list about Biloxi. I was informed that there are a lot of texts available. I'm not sure if it's still spoken or if it's one of the unfortunate extinct Siouan languages. Also, I'm wondering if anyone is currently involved in its research. Since I'm still willing and able to work on a Siouan language, and since right now it's rather difficult financially for me to travel across the country to do fieldwork, I feel I'd be in a very good position to study an "extinct" language which involves only written materials and texts. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can get more info on this language and its current status and where I may be able to get hold of copies of its texts? > > Thanks. > > Dave Kaufman > > John Boyle wrote: > Hello, I'm wondering what the status is right now of work on the Hiraca (Hidatsa) and Hocak (Winnebago) languages. I have not seen list email correspondence from John Boyle recently, whom I know was working on Hiraca (at least he was a couple of years ago when I visited Chicago). I wouldn't mind getting hold of any new documentation, dictionaries, updated grammars, or any other materials which may have been recently published, or which I may obtain for my own library and self-study purposes. I recently sent an email regarding Cherokee and Hawaiian. (I take it by the lack of response that there are no Siouanists out there also delving into these non-Siouan languages, or know of anyone who does.) These are the two indigenous languages I'm putting most of my efforts into right now, but I always keep an eye on Hiraca, Hocak, and some other Siouan languages as well, although I'm not formally or professionally involved in working on these languages. It's strictly for my own > information and personal interest. Thanks. Dave Kaufmandvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com > > --------------------------------- > > > > > Hi All, > > > Well, I'm still working on Hidatsa. I have just completed a dissertation chapter on relative clauses which is more or less ready to go. It is pretty theoretical with a lot of syntactic trees, but if anyone would like a copy, I'd be happy to send a pdf. I have also spent a good chunk of the summer entering Wes Jones' Word List/Dictionary into an excel spread sheet, so that it is searchable. Unfortunately, I use fonts that are probably not compatible for PC users. I hope to do a find and replace in the near future so that it is available for the schools on the reservation and anyone else who would like a copy. Throughout the coming year, I plan on checking all of the words and adding more to the list. All in all, it is a really good word list although some of the non-traditional words are not agreed upon by some people, so we'll want to flag those. > We are also working on lesson plans and grammar exercises for the schools to ensure that we are in line with all of the "No Child Left Behind" guidelines. In addition, we hope to be completing a "Sketch" for Lincolm on Hidatsa within the next year and a half. With regards to texts, I have completed interlinear breakdowns for all of the Lowie and Earth Lodge texts in addition to several others, giving us a total of 13 completed texts (which is over 1150 lines). There is still some inconsistency within the texts as my analysis has changed over the years, so I wouldn't feel so comfortable giving these out. In addition, some of the Hidatsa feel that some of these stories shouldn't be told to outsiders, so we still have to work through that culturally sensitive point. > Other than that, things are going well on Ft. Berthold. The new immersion programs are working well for the younger children and the high school programs are becoming more uniform in their content. > With regards to Hocank, I assume that Helmbrecht is still actively working on the language and I know that there are very active language revitalization programs going on on all of the reservations. > > > So that's what's going an as far as I know. > > > All the best, > > > John (Boyle not Koontz) > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 10 18:58:29 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 11:58:29 -0700 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: <01fa01c4aed9$8551e6d0$0eb5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Hi Bob: Thanks for your reply and information. This, of course, leads me to a few other questions: --John R. Swanton and James Owen Dorsey, A Dictionary of the Biloxi and Ofo Languages. BAE Bulletin 47, 1912. Paula Einaudi's U. of Colorado dissertation from about '74 is based on D&S and is a good starting place for further work. The Smithsonian has Dorsey's original Biloxi field notes which may contain additional information.-- Can the dictionary be special ordered perhaps through Borders or Amazon.com? May I request a copy of Einaudi's dissertation from U of Colorado by phone or email to be sent to me? Whom would I contact at the Smithsonian to get copies of Dorsey's field notes? --I don't think another "dissertation length" treatise would cover it. It is pretty much a career's worth of work for somebody. I hope you or someone else will work with what's available.-- As I've said on this list before, I am quite willing and able to work on documenting a Siouan language and would appreciate the opportunity. I already have some Siouan background with the VERY basic knowledge of Hiraca, which I took a passive interest in and have spoken with John B. about, and some VERY limited knowledge of Hocak based on copies of papers I received while in Chicago. I would imagine documenting an "extinct" language has its own problems, since there are no longer native speakers left with which to confirm data. But I suppose it also has its advantages in that one doesn't have to go through the long and difficult process of establishing rapports with native speakers and become involved in tribal politics which I've heard sometimes happens in field work. It seems my main difficulty would just be in gathering, from a distance, all the extant materials and prior work that has been done. I'm also curious about one other thing: since I currently have an MA (not a PhD) in linguistics, would it be too illogical to assume that once one is already involved in analysis of a language, that it would be easier to be accepted to a PhD-granting university? I mean if I were to make a career of analyzing a language and would be developing the material for a dissertation anyway, and then some!, wouldn't this also suggest easier acceptance into a program? I have actually considered applying to Canadian or British universities where I understand all that's required is research and a dissertation, and extra course work is not needed as is the case here in the US. I'm nearly 42 years old, so of course time is an issue for me in achieving a PhD. Not that I'm hellbent on achieving a PhD (it really doesn't matter that much to me either way) but since I'd already be doing the research and work that a dissertation would entail, why not? Thanks again for your feedback and answering my many questions! Dave "R. Rankin" wrote: The place to start with Biloxi is John R. Swanton and James Owen Dorsey, A Dictionary of the Biloxi and Ofo Languages. BAE Bulletin 47, 1912. Paula Einaudi's U. of Colorado dissertation from about '74 is based on D&S and is a good starting place for further work. I reviewed the book for IJAL and have written a few additional papers on Biloxi and Ofo. The Smithsonian has Dorsey's original Biloxi field notes which may contain additional information. Gatschet did a little earlier field work incorporated by Dorsey. Mary Haas located a woman in about 1934 who could remember a few words of Biloxi and she published a paper in IJAL in about 1968 entitled "The last words of Biloxi". Randy Graczyk has a nice paper on Biloxi switch-reference particles in MS form. There is much about Biloxi morphosyntax that needs clarification. Einaudi's sketch is a beginning, but the definitive Biloxi grammar is yet to be written. I don't think another "dissertation length" treatise would cover it. It is pretty much a career's worth of work for somebody. Not me -- I have noodled around with it, but I'm too old and have too much on my plate already. I hope you or someone else will work with what's available. Hint: Take Dorsey's two series of stop consonants (plain and with subscript dots) seriously. They represent distinct phonological series that were missed by virtually everybody after Dorsey. Another hint: A single linguist per language guarantees totally inadequate coverage. There is still much to analyze in Dakotan, and numerous linguists have been trying to understand how that language works for well over 150 years. The other Siouan languages haven't seen nearly as much work. There's plenty to do with both texts and speakers in a variety of languages, and if it's done right, both speakers and linguists will appreciate the effort. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Kaufman" To: Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 6:54 PM Subject: Re: Hidatsa update > Thanks, John B., for your response and update on Hiraca. Glad to hear from you and know you're still involved in the tribe's efforts to revitalize it. > > Also, I wanted to ask the list about Biloxi. I was informed that there are a lot of texts available. I'm not sure if it's still spoken or if it's one of the unfortunate extinct Siouan languages. Also, I'm wondering if anyone is currently involved in its research. Since I'm still willing and able to work on a Siouan language, and since right now it's rather difficult financially for me to travel across the country to do fieldwork, I feel I'd be in a very good position to study an "extinct" language which involves only written materials and texts. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can get more info on this language and its current status and where I may be able to get hold of copies of its texts? > > Thanks. > > Dave Kaufman > > John Boyle wrote: > Hello, I'm wondering what the status is right now of work on the Hiraca (Hidatsa) and Hocak (Winnebago) languages. I have not seen list email correspondence from John Boyle recently, whom I know was working on Hiraca (at least he was a couple of years ago when I visited Chicago). I wouldn't mind getting hold of any new documentation, dictionaries, updated grammars, or any other materials which may have been recently published, or which I may obtain for my own library and self-study purposes. I recently sent an email regarding Cherokee and Hawaiian. (I take it by the lack of response that there are no Siouanists out there also delving into these non-Siouan languages, or know of anyone who does.) These are the two indigenous languages I'm putting most of my efforts into right now, but I always keep an eye on Hiraca, Hocak, and some other Siouan languages as well, although I'm not formally or professionally involved in working on these languages. It's strictly for my own > information and personal interest. Thanks. Dave Kaufmandvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com > > --------------------------------- > > > > > Hi All, > > > Well, I'm still working on Hidatsa. I have just completed a dissertation chapter on relative clauses which is more or less ready to go. It is pretty theoretical with a lot of syntactic trees, but if anyone would like a copy, I'd be happy to send a pdf. I have also spent a good chunk of the summer entering Wes Jones' Word List/Dictionary into an excel spread sheet, so that it is searchable. Unfortunately, I use fonts that are probably not compatible for PC users. I hope to do a find and replace in the near future so that it is available for the schools on the reservation and anyone else who would like a copy. Throughout the coming year, I plan on checking all of the words and adding more to the list. All in all, it is a really good word list although some of the non-traditional words are not agreed upon by some people, so we'll want to flag those. > We are also working on lesson plans and grammar exercises for the schools to ensure that we are in line with all of the "No Child Left Behind" guidelines. In addition, we hope to be completing a "Sketch" for Lincolm on Hidatsa within the next year and a half. With regards to texts, I have completed interlinear breakdowns for all of the Lowie and Earth Lodge texts in addition to several others, giving us a total of 13 completed texts (which is over 1150 lines). There is still some inconsistency within the texts as my analysis has changed over the years, so I wouldn't feel so comfortable giving these out. In addition, some of the Hidatsa feel that some of these stories shouldn't be told to outsiders, so we still have to work through that culturally sensitive point. > Other than that, things are going well on Ft. Berthold. The new immersion programs are working well for the younger children and the high school programs are becoming more uniform in their content. > With regards to Hocank, I assume that Helmbrecht is still actively working on the language and I know that there are very active language revitalization programs going on on all of the reservations. > > > So that's what's going an as far as I know. > > > All the best, > > > John (Boyle not Koontz) > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sun Oct 10 20:45:12 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:45:12 -0500 Subject: Biloxi update Message-ID: > Can the dictionary be special ordered perhaps through Borders or Amazon.com? There are lots of used copies floating around. Amazon.com's websites incorporates inventories from several other antiquarian booksellers. check there first. > May I request a copy of Einaudi's dissertation from U of Colorado by phone or email to be sent to me? It was published by Garland Press. There should be used copies floating around. Whom would I contact at the Smithsonian to get copies of Dorsey's field notes? Go to the National Anthropological Archives website and start there. They charge an arm and a leg for photocopying but may have the Biloxi on microfilm. I don't know. > I would imagine documenting an "extinct" language has its own problems, since there are no longer native speakers left with which to confirm data. But I suppose it also has its advantages in that one doesn't have to go through the long and difficult process of establishing rapports with native speakers and become involved in tribal politics which I've heard sometimes happens in field work. It seems my main difficulty would just be in gathering, from a distance, all the extant materials and prior work that has been done. Better look at Dorsey and Swanton first, and Einaudi. It's true that for philological analysis of texts lots of comparative work is useful. > I'm also curious about one other thing: since I currently have an MA (not a PhD) in linguistics, would it be too illogical to assume that once one is already involved in analysis of a language, that it would be easier to be accepted to a PhD-granting university? I mean if I were to make a career of analyzing a language and would be developing the material for a dissertation anyway, and then some!, wouldn't this also suggest easier acceptance into a program? I have actually considered applying to Canadian or British universities where I understand all that's required is research and a dissertation, and extra course work is not needed as is the case here in the US. I'm nearly 42 years old, so of course time is an issue for me in achieving a PhD. Not that I'm hellbent on achieving a PhD (it really doesn't matter that much to me either way) but since I'd already be doing the research and work that a dissertation would entail, why not? I'm sure there are lots of Ph.D. programs in Linguistics that would love to have applicants. This is especially true with international student applications down 20 or 30%. You'd maybe want a local Siouanist and definitely the availability of comparative linguistics if possible. That restricts the possibilities somewhat. At the moment I guess you might think of Colorado, Chicago, UCSB, UCLA, UCB, Indiana, Utah, SUNY Buffalo, UBC, Regina, Toronto in no particular order. I'm probably leaving someone out. I'm retiring in May or I'd mention KS. There are some Anthropology depts among these too. Bob > > Thanks again for your feedback and answering my many questions! > > Dave > > "R. Rankin" wrote: > The place to start with Biloxi is John R. Swanton and James Owen Dorsey, A > Dictionary of the Biloxi and Ofo Languages. BAE Bulletin 47, 1912. Paula > Einaudi's U. of Colorado dissertation from about '74 is based on D&S and is a > good starting place for further work. I reviewed the book for IJAL and have > written a few additional papers on Biloxi and Ofo. The Smithsonian has Dorsey's > original Biloxi field notes which may contain additional information. Gatschet > did a little earlier field work incorporated by Dorsey. Mary Haas located a > woman in about 1934 who could remember a few words of Biloxi and she published a > paper in IJAL in about 1968 entitled "The last words of Biloxi". Randy Graczyk > has a nice paper on Biloxi switch-reference particles in MS form. > > There is much about Biloxi morphosyntax that needs clarification. Einaudi's > sketch is a beginning, but the definitive Biloxi grammar is yet to be written. > I don't think another "dissertation length" treatise would cover it. It is > pretty much a career's worth of work for somebody. Not me -- I have noodled > around with it, but I'm too old and have too much on my plate already. I hope > you or someone else will work with what's available. > > Hint: Take Dorsey's two series of stop consonants (plain and with subscript > dots) seriously. They represent distinct phonological series that were missed > by virtually everybody after Dorsey. > > Another hint: A single linguist per language guarantees totally inadequate > coverage. There is still much to analyze in Dakotan, and numerous linguists > have been trying to understand how that language works for well over 150 years. > The other Siouan languages haven't seen nearly as much work. There's plenty to > do with both texts and speakers in a variety of languages, and if it's done > right, both speakers and linguists will appreciate the effort. > > Bob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Kaufman" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 6:54 PM > Subject: Re: Hidatsa update > > > > Thanks, John B., for your response and update on Hiraca. Glad to hear from > you and know you're still involved in the tribe's efforts to revitalize it. > > > > Also, I wanted to ask the list about Biloxi. I was informed that there are a > lot of texts available. I'm not sure if it's still spoken or if it's one of the > unfortunate extinct Siouan languages. Also, I'm wondering if anyone is > currently involved in its research. Since I'm still willing and able to work on > a Siouan language, and since right now it's rather difficult financially for me > to travel across the country to do fieldwork, I feel I'd be in a very good > position to study an "extinct" language which involves only written materials > and texts. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can get more info on this > language and its current status and where I may be able to get hold of copies of > its texts? > > > > Thanks. > > > > Dave Kaufman > > > > John Boyle wrote: > > Hello, I'm wondering what the status is right now of work on the Hiraca > (Hidatsa) and Hocak (Winnebago) languages. I have not seen list email > correspondence from John Boyle recently, whom I know was working on Hiraca (at > least he was a couple of years ago when I visited Chicago). I wouldn't mind > getting hold of any new documentation, dictionaries, updated grammars, or any > other materials which may have been recently published, or which I may obtain > for my own library and self-study purposes. I recently sent an email regarding > Cherokee and Hawaiian. (I take it by the lack of response that there are no > Siouanists out there also delving into these non-Siouan languages, or know of > anyone who does.) These are the two indigenous languages I'm putting most of my > efforts into right now, but I always keep an eye on Hiraca, Hocak, and some > other Siouan languages as well, although I'm not formally or professionally > involved in working on these languages. It's strictly for my own > > information and personal interest. Thanks. Dave > Kaufmandvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > Well, I'm still working on Hidatsa. I have just completed a dissertation > chapter on relative clauses which is more or less ready to go. It is pretty > theoretical with a lot of syntactic trees, but if anyone would like a copy, I'd > be happy to send a pdf. I have also spent a good chunk of the summer entering > Wes Jones' Word List/Dictionary into an excel spread sheet, so that it is > searchable. Unfortunately, I use fonts that are probably not compatible for PC > users. I hope to do a find and replace in the near future so that it is > available for the schools on the reservation and anyone else who would like a > copy. Throughout the coming year, I plan on checking all of the words and > adding more to the list. All in all, it is a really good word list although > some of the non-traditional words are not agreed upon by some people, so we'll > want to flag those. > > We are also working on lesson plans and grammar exercises for the > schools to ensure that we are in line with all of the "No Child Left Behind" > guidelines. In addition, we hope to be completing a "Sketch" for Lincolm on > Hidatsa within the next year and a half. With regards to texts, I have > completed interlinear breakdowns for all of the Lowie and Earth Lodge texts in > addition to several others, giving us a total of 13 completed texts (which is > over 1150 lines). There is still some inconsistency within the texts as my > analysis has changed over the years, so I wouldn't feel so comfortable giving > these out. In addition, some of the Hidatsa feel that some of these stories > shouldn't be told to outsiders, so we still have to work through that culturally > sensitive point. > > Other than that, things are going well on Ft. Berthold. The new > immersion programs are working well for the younger children and the high school > programs are becoming more uniform in their content. > > With regards to Hocank, I assume that Helmbrecht is still actively > working on the language and I know that there are very active language > revitalization programs going on on all of the reservations. > > > > > > So that's what's going an as far as I know. > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > John (Boyle not Koontz) > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Oct 10 21:36:10 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 16:36:10 -0500 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: <02a601c4af0a$0afbe2b0$0eb5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: > There are lots of used copies floating around. Amazon.com's websites > incorporates inventories from several other antiquarian booksellers. check > there first. Also Advanced Book Exchange, Alibris, and Barnes & Noble, all on line. Alan From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sun Oct 10 22:19:42 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:19:42 -0700 Subject: Biloxi update Message-ID: I personally would start with bookfinder.com. I've found LOTS of old linguistic books there. Dave >> There are lots of used copies floating around. Amazon.com's websites >> incorporates inventories from several other antiquarian booksellers. check >> there first. > > Also Advanced Book Exchange, Alibris, and Barnes & Noble, all on line. > > Alan > From rankin at ku.edu Sun Oct 10 22:25:53 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 17:25:53 -0500 Subject: Biloxi update Message-ID: Oh, and don't forget the computer files of D&S's texts and dictionaries at the U. of Colorado's Siouan Archive. It was recorded in the older ASCII symbol set with all-CAPS and numerals for diacritics, but it can be dubbed down into Windows symbols/formatting by you. It's much easier to search than the book (which should always be on hand for double checking for typoes. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Rankin" To: Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 3:45 PM Subject: Re: Biloxi update > > Can the dictionary be special ordered perhaps through Borders or Amazon.com? > > There are lots of used copies floating around. Amazon.com's websites > incorporates inventories from several other antiquarian booksellers. check > there first. > > > May I request a copy of Einaudi's dissertation from U of Colorado by phone or > email to be sent to me? > > It was published by Garland Press. There should be used copies floating around. > > Whom would I contact at the Smithsonian to get copies of Dorsey's field notes? > > Go to the National Anthropological Archives website and start there. They > charge an arm and a leg for photocopying but may have the Biloxi on microfilm. > I don't know. > > > I would imagine documenting an "extinct" language has its own problems, since > there are no longer native speakers left with which to confirm data. But I > suppose it also has its advantages in that one doesn't have to go through the > long and difficult process of establishing rapports with native speakers and > become involved in tribal politics which I've heard sometimes happens in field > work. It seems my main difficulty would just be in gathering, from a distance, > all the extant materials and prior work that has been done. > > Better look at Dorsey and Swanton first, and Einaudi. It's true that for > philological analysis of texts lots of comparative work is useful. > > > I'm also curious about one other thing: since I currently have an MA (not a > PhD) in linguistics, would it be too illogical to assume that once one is > already involved in analysis of a language, that it would be easier to be > accepted to a PhD-granting university? I mean if I were to make a career of > analyzing a language and would be developing the material for a dissertation > anyway, and then some!, wouldn't this also suggest easier acceptance into a > program? I have actually considered applying to Canadian or British > universities where I understand all that's required is research and a > dissertation, and extra course work is not needed as is the case here in the US. > I'm nearly 42 years old, so of course time is an issue for me in achieving a > PhD. Not that I'm hellbent on achieving a PhD (it really doesn't matter that > much to me either way) but since I'd already be doing the research and work that > a dissertation would entail, why not? > > I'm sure there are lots of Ph.D. programs in Linguistics that would love to have > applicants. This is especially true with international student applications > down 20 or 30%. You'd maybe want a local Siouanist and definitely the > availability of comparative linguistics if possible. That restricts the > possibilities somewhat. At the moment I guess you might think of Colorado, > Chicago, UCSB, UCLA, UCB, Indiana, Utah, SUNY Buffalo, UBC, Regina, Toronto in > no particular order. I'm probably leaving someone out. I'm retiring in May or > I'd mention KS. There are some Anthropology depts among these too. > > Bob > > > > Thanks again for your feedback and answering my many questions! > > > > Dave > > > > "R. Rankin" wrote: > > The place to start with Biloxi is John R. Swanton and James Owen Dorsey, A > > Dictionary of the Biloxi and Ofo Languages. BAE Bulletin 47, 1912. Paula > > Einaudi's U. of Colorado dissertation from about '74 is based on D&S and is a > > good starting place for further work. I reviewed the book for IJAL and have > > written a few additional papers on Biloxi and Ofo. The Smithsonian has > Dorsey's > > original Biloxi field notes which may contain additional information. Gatschet > > did a little earlier field work incorporated by Dorsey. Mary Haas located a > > woman in about 1934 who could remember a few words of Biloxi and she published > a > > paper in IJAL in about 1968 entitled "The last words of Biloxi". Randy Graczyk > > has a nice paper on Biloxi switch-reference particles in MS form. > > > > There is much about Biloxi morphosyntax that needs clarification. Einaudi's > > sketch is a beginning, but the definitive Biloxi grammar is yet to be written. > > I don't think another "dissertation length" treatise would cover it. It is > > pretty much a career's worth of work for somebody. Not me -- I have noodled > > around with it, but I'm too old and have too much on my plate already. I hope > > you or someone else will work with what's available. > > > > Hint: Take Dorsey's two series of stop consonants (plain and with subscript > > dots) seriously. They represent distinct phonological series that were missed > > by virtually everybody after Dorsey. > > > > Another hint: A single linguist per language guarantees totally inadequate > > coverage. There is still much to analyze in Dakotan, and numerous linguists > > have been trying to understand how that language works for well over 150 > years. > > The other Siouan languages haven't seen nearly as much work. There's plenty to > > do with both texts and speakers in a variety of languages, and if it's done > > right, both speakers and linguists will appreciate the effort. > > > > Bob > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "David Kaufman" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 6:54 PM > > Subject: Re: Hidatsa update > > > > > > > Thanks, John B., for your response and update on Hiraca. Glad to hear from > > you and know you're still involved in the tribe's efforts to revitalize it. > > > > > > Also, I wanted to ask the list about Biloxi. I was informed that there are a > > lot of texts available. I'm not sure if it's still spoken or if it's one of > the > > unfortunate extinct Siouan languages. Also, I'm wondering if anyone is > > currently involved in its research. Since I'm still willing and able to work > on > > a Siouan language, and since right now it's rather difficult financially for > me > > to travel across the country to do fieldwork, I feel I'd be in a very good > > position to study an "extinct" language which involves only written materials > > and texts. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can get more info on this > > language and its current status and where I may be able to get hold of copies > of > > its texts? > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > Dave Kaufman > > > > > > John Boyle wrote: > > > Hello, I'm wondering what the status is right now of work on the Hiraca > > (Hidatsa) and Hocak (Winnebago) languages. I have not seen list email > > correspondence from John Boyle recently, whom I know was working on Hiraca (at > > least he was a couple of years ago when I visited Chicago). I wouldn't mind > > getting hold of any new documentation, dictionaries, updated grammars, or any > > other materials which may have been recently published, or which I may obtain > > for my own library and self-study purposes. I recently sent an email regarding > > Cherokee and Hawaiian. (I take it by the lack of response that there are no > > Siouanists out there also delving into these non-Siouan languages, or know of > > anyone who does.) These are the two indigenous languages I'm putting most of > my > > efforts into right now, but I always keep an eye on Hiraca, Hocak, and some > > other Siouan languages as well, although I'm not formally or professionally > > involved in working on these languages. It's strictly for my own > > > information and personal interest. Thanks. Dave > > Kaufmandvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > > > > Well, I'm still working on Hidatsa. I have just completed a dissertation > > chapter on relative clauses which is more or less ready to go. It is pretty > > theoretical with a lot of syntactic trees, but if anyone would like a copy, > I'd > > be happy to send a pdf. I have also spent a good chunk of the summer entering > > Wes Jones' Word List/Dictionary into an excel spread sheet, so that it is > > searchable. Unfortunately, I use fonts that are probably not compatible for PC > > users. I hope to do a find and replace in the near future so that it is > > available for the schools on the reservation and anyone else who would like a > > copy. Throughout the coming year, I plan on checking all of the words and > > adding more to the list. All in all, it is a really good word list although > > some of the non-traditional words are not agreed upon by some people, so we'll > > want to flag those. > > > We are also working on lesson plans and grammar exercises for the > > schools to ensure that we are in line with all of the "No Child Left Behind" > > guidelines. In addition, we hope to be completing a "Sketch" for Lincolm on > > Hidatsa within the next year and a half. With regards to texts, I have > > completed interlinear breakdowns for all of the Lowie and Earth Lodge texts in > > addition to several others, giving us a total of 13 completed texts (which is > > over 1150 lines). There is still some inconsistency within the texts as my > > analysis has changed over the years, so I wouldn't feel so comfortable giving > > these out. In addition, some of the Hidatsa feel that some of these stories > > shouldn't be told to outsiders, so we still have to work through that > culturally > > sensitive point. > > > Other than that, things are going well on Ft. Berthold. The new > > immersion programs are working well for the younger children and the high > school > > programs are becoming more uniform in their content. > > > With regards to Hocank, I assume that Helmbrecht is still actively > > working on the language and I know that there are very active language > > revitalization programs going on on all of the reservations. > > > > > > > > > So that's what's going an as far as I know. > > > > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > > > > John (Boyle not Koontz) > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! > > From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 11 02:36:17 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:36:17 -0700 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: <02cf01c4af18$1bf87480$0eb5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Already ordered a copy of the dictionary--a used hardback in "good" condition through Amazon. Should be arriving in the next week or so. I'm not sure if this one has the texts in it, but a NEW copy (which was all I saw) with texts costs $99.00! A bit much at the moment. Eventually I'm sure I'll get it, but I'll see where I get with the other things, especially the ordered dictionary, first. Are these U of Colorado Siouan archives something I can access online? Also going to track down the IJAL article. So, Bob, you mentioned you did a couple of papers on Biloxi-Ofo? Is this something you could email copies of, or forward via snail mail? I'm also wondering if, since Biloxi is the farthest afield of the Siouan languages, it is also the most divergent? I know in the case of Cherokee it became the most divergent of the Iroquois family because of its fairly early shift farther south. Wonder if the same is true of Biloxi in the Siouan family. It'll be interesting to compare Hidatsa, in the far north, with Biloxi, in the far south, to see how much these two Siouan languages have diverged. Thanks again! Dave "R. Rankin" wrote: Oh, and don't forget the computer files of D&S's texts and dictionaries at the U. of Colorado's Siouan Archive. It was recorded in the older ASCII symbol set with all-CAPS and numerals for diacritics, but it can be dubbed down into Windows symbols/formatting by you. It's much easier to search than the book (which should always be on hand for double checking for typoes. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Rankin" To: Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 3:45 PM Subject: Re: Biloxi update > > Can the dictionary be special ordered perhaps through Borders or Amazon.com? > > There are lots of used copies floating around. Amazon.com's websites > incorporates inventories from several other antiquarian booksellers. check > there first. > > > May I request a copy of Einaudi's dissertation from U of Colorado by phone or > email to be sent to me? > > It was published by Garland Press. There should be used copies floating around. > > Whom would I contact at the Smithsonian to get copies of Dorsey's field notes? > > Go to the National Anthropological Archives website and start there. They > charge an arm and a leg for photocopying but may have the Biloxi on microfilm. > I don't know. > > > I would imagine documenting an "extinct" language has its own problems, since > there are no longer native speakers left with which to confirm data. But I > suppose it also has its advantages in that one doesn't have to go through the > long and difficult process of establishing rapports with native speakers and > become involved in tribal politics which I've heard sometimes happens in field > work. It seems my main difficulty would just be in gathering, from a distance, > all the extant materials and prior work that has been done. > > Better look at Dorsey and Swanton first, and Einaudi. It's true that for > philological analysis of texts lots of comparative work is useful. > > > I'm also curious about one other thing: since I currently have an MA (not a > PhD) in linguistics, would it be too illogical to assume that once one is > already involved in analysis of a language, that it would be easier to be > accepted to a PhD-granting university? I mean if I were to make a career of > analyzing a language and would be developing the material for a dissertation > anyway, and then some!, wouldn't this also suggest easier acceptance into a > program? I have actually considered applying to Canadian or British > universities where I understand all that's required is research and a > dissertation, and extra course work is not needed as is the case here in the US. > I'm nearly 42 years old, so of course time is an issue for me in achieving a > PhD. Not that I'm hellbent on achieving a PhD (it really doesn't matter that > much to me either way) but since I'd already be doing the research and work that > a dissertation would entail, why not? > > I'm sure there are lots of Ph.D. programs in Linguistics that would love to have > applicants. This is especially true with international student applications > down 20 or 30%. You'd maybe want a local Siouanist and definitely the > availability of comparative linguistics if possible. That restricts the > possibilities somewhat. At the moment I guess you might think of Colorado, > Chicago, UCSB, UCLA, UCB, Indiana, Utah, SUNY Buffalo, UBC, Regina, Toronto in > no particular order. I'm probably leaving someone out. I'm retiring in May or > I'd mention KS. There are some Anthropology depts among these too. > > Bob > > > > Thanks again for your feedback and answering my many questions! > > > > Dave > > > > "R. Rankin" wrote: > > The place to start with Biloxi is John R. Swanton and James Owen Dorsey, A > > Dictionary of the Biloxi and Ofo Languages. BAE Bulletin 47, 1912. Paula > > Einaudi's U. of Colorado dissertation from about '74 is based on D&S and is a > > good starting place for further work. I reviewed the book for IJAL and have > > written a few additional papers on Biloxi and Ofo. The Smithsonian has > Dorsey's > > original Biloxi field notes which may contain additional information. Gatschet > > did a little earlier field work incorporated by Dorsey. Mary Haas located a > > woman in about 1934 who could remember a few words of Biloxi and she published > a > > paper in IJAL in about 1968 entitled "The last words of Biloxi". Randy Graczyk > > has a nice paper on Biloxi switch-reference particles in MS form. > > > > There is much about Biloxi morphosyntax that needs clarification. Einaudi's > > sketch is a beginning, but the definitive Biloxi grammar is yet to be written. > > I don't think another "dissertation length" treatise would cover it. It is > > pretty much a career's worth of work for somebody. Not me -- I have noodled > > around with it, but I'm too old and have too much on my plate already. I hope > > you or someone else will work with what's available. > > > > Hint: Take Dorsey's two series of stop consonants (plain and with subscript > > dots) seriously. They represent distinct phonological series that were missed > > by virtually everybody after Dorsey. > > > > Another hint: A single linguist per language guarantees totally inadequate > > coverage. There is still much to analyze in Dakotan, and numerous linguists > > have been trying to understand how that language works for well over 150 > years. > > The other Siouan languages haven't seen nearly as much work. There's plenty to > > do with both texts and speakers in a variety of languages, and if it's done > > right, both speakers and linguists will appreciate the effort. > > > > Bob > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "David Kaufman" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 6:54 PM > > Subject: Re: Hidatsa update > > > > > > > Thanks, John B., for your response and update on Hiraca. Glad to hear from > > you and know you're still involved in the tribe's efforts to revitalize it. > > > > > > Also, I wanted to ask the list about Biloxi. I was informed that there are a > > lot of texts available. I'm not sure if it's still spoken or if it's one of > the > > unfortunate extinct Siouan languages. Also, I'm wondering if anyone is > > currently involved in its research. Since I'm still willing and able to work > on > > a Siouan language, and since right now it's rather difficult financially for > me > > to travel across the country to do fieldwork, I feel I'd be in a very good > > position to study an "extinct" language which involves only written materials > > and texts. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can get more info on this > > language and its current status and where I may be able to get hold of copies > of > > its texts? > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > Dave Kaufman > > > > > > John Boyle wrote: > > > Hello, I'm wondering what the status is right now of work on the Hiraca > > (Hidatsa) and Hocak (Winnebago) languages. I have not seen list email > > correspondence from John Boyle recently, whom I know was working on Hiraca (at > > least he was a couple of years ago when I visited Chicago). I wouldn't mind > > getting hold of any new documentation, dictionaries, updated grammars, or any > > other materials which may have been recently published, or which I may obtain > > for my own library and self-study purposes. I recently sent an email regarding > > Cherokee and Hawaiian. (I take it by the lack of response that there are no > > Siouanists out there also delving into these non-Siouan languages, or know of > > anyone who does.) These are the two indigenous languages I'm putting most of > my > > efforts into right now, but I always keep an eye on Hiraca, Hocak, and some > > other Siouan languages as well, although I'm not formally or professionally > > involved in working on these languages. It's strictly for my own > > > information and personal interest. Thanks. Dave > > Kaufmandvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > > > > Well, I'm still working on Hidatsa. I have just completed a dissertation > > chapter on relative clauses which is more or less ready to go. It is pretty > > theoretical with a lot of syntactic trees, but if anyone would like a copy, > I'd > > be happy to send a pdf. I have also spent a good chunk of the summer entering > > Wes Jones' Word List/Dictionary into an excel spread sheet, so that it is > > searchable. Unfortunately, I use fonts that are probably not compatible for PC > > users. I hope to do a find and replace in the near future so that it is > > available for the schools on the reservation and anyone else who would like a > > copy. Throughout the coming year, I plan on checking all of the words and > > adding more to the list. All in all, it is a really good word list although > > some of the non-traditional words are not agreed upon by some people, so we'll > > want to flag those. > > > We are also working on lesson plans and grammar exercises for the > > schools to ensure that we are in line with all of the "No Child Left Behind" > > guidelines. In addition, we hope to be completing a "Sketch" for Lincolm on > > Hidatsa within the next year and a half. With regards to texts, I have > > completed interlinear breakdowns for all of the Lowie and Earth Lodge texts in > > addition to several others, giving us a total of 13 completed texts (which is > > over 1150 lines). There is still some inconsistency within the texts as my > > analysis has changed over the years, so I wouldn't feel so comfortable giving > > these out. In addition, some of the Hidatsa feel that some of these stories > > shouldn't be told to outsiders, so we still have to work through that > culturally > > sensitive point. > > > Other than that, things are going well on Ft. Berthold. The new > > immersion programs are working well for the younger children and the high > school > > programs are becoming more uniform in their content. > > > With regards to Hocank, I assume that Helmbrecht is still actively > > working on the language and I know that there are very active language > > revitalization programs going on on all of the reservations. > > > > > > > > > So that's what's going an as far as I know. > > > > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > > > > John (Boyle not Koontz) > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! > > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Mon Oct 11 12:13:12 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 13:13:12 +0100 Subject: Biloxi update Message-ID: Dave: yes, the book has the texts as well as the vocab (and see Mary Haas' artile on the last words of Biloxi in IJAL in, I think, 1968 for one other lexical item). For my money, Ofo is a bit more divergent in some respects. (I don't know Tutelo well enough to judge.) But divergence can also imply archaism. My advice on mastering comparative Siouan? Saturate yourself in the relevant works of Rankin and Rood (certainly start with their works). Someone should do a Comparative Siouan Reader one day, ditto for Alg, Caddoan, Iroquoian, Uto-Aztecan, Muskogean...(anyone spot a trend here?). Best Anthony >>> dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com 11/10/2004 03:36:17 >>> Already ordered a copy of the dictionary--a used hardback in "good" condition through Amazon. Should be arriving in the next week or so. I'm not sure if this one has the texts in it, but a NEW copy (which was all I saw) with texts costs $99.00! A bit much at the moment. Eventually I'm sure I'll get it, but I'll see where I get with the other things, especially the ordered dictionary, first. Are these U of Colorado Siouan archives something I can access online? Also going to track down the IJAL article. So, Bob, you mentioned you did a couple of papers on Biloxi-Ofo? Is this something you could email copies of, or forward via snail mail? I'm also wondering if, since Biloxi is the farthest afield of the Siouan languages, it is also the most divergent? I know in the case of Cherokee it became the most divergent of the Iroquois family because of its fairly early shift farther south. Wonder if the same is true of Biloxi in the Siouan family. It'll be interesting to compare Hidatsa, in the far north, with Biloxi, in the far south, to see how much these two Siouan languages have diverged. Thanks again! Dave "R. Rankin" wrote: Oh, and don't forget the computer files of D&S's texts and dictionaries at the U. of Colorado's Siouan Archive. It was recorded in the older ASCII symbol set with all-CAPS and numerals for diacritics, but it can be dubbed down into Windows symbols/formatting by you. It's much easier to search than the book (which should always be on hand for double checking for typoes. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Rankin" To: Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 3:45 PM Subject: Re: Biloxi update > > Can the dictionary be special ordered perhaps through Borders or Amazon.com? > > There are lots of used copies floating around. Amazon.com's websites > incorporates inventories from several other antiquarian booksellers. check > there first. > > > May I request a copy of Einaudi's dissertation from U of Colorado by phone or > email to be sent to me? > > It was published by Garland Press. There should be used copies floating around. > > Whom would I contact at the Smithsonian to get copies of Dorsey's field notes? > > Go to the National Anthropological Archives website and start there. They > charge an arm and a leg for photocopying but may have the Biloxi on microfilm. > I don't know. > > > I would imagine documenting an "extinct" language has its own problems, since > there are no longer native speakers left with which to confirm data. But I > suppose it also has its advantages in that one doesn't have to go through the > long and difficult process of establishing rapports with native speakers and > become involved in tribal politics which I've heard sometimes happens in field > work. It seems my main difficulty would just be in gathering, from a distance, > all the extant materials and prior work that has been done. > > Better look at Dorsey and Swanton first, and Einaudi. It's true that for > philological analysis of texts lots of comparative work is useful. > > > I'm also curious about one other thing: since I currently have an MA (not a > PhD) in linguistics, would it be too illogical to assume that once one is > already involved in analysis of a language, that it would be easier to be > accepted to a PhD-granting university? I mean if I were to make a career of > analyzing a language and would be developing the material for a dissertation > anyway, and then some!, wouldn't this also suggest easier acceptance into a > program? I have actually considered applying to Canadian or British > universities where I understand all that's required is research and a > dissertation, and extra course work is not needed as is the case here in the US. > I'm nearly 42 years old, so of course time is an issue for me in achieving a > PhD. Not that I'm hellbent on achieving a PhD (it really doesn't matter that > much to me either way) but since I'd already be doing the research and work that > a dissertation would entail, why not? > > I'm sure there are lots of Ph.D. programs in Linguistics that would love to have > applicants. This is especially true with international student applications > down 20 or 30%. You'd maybe want a local Siouanist and definitely the > availability of comparative linguistics if possible. That restricts the > possibilities somewhat. At the moment I guess you might think of Colorado, > Chicago, UCSB, UCLA, UCB, Indiana, Utah, SUNY Buffalo, UBC, Regina, Toronto in > no particular order. I'm probably leaving someone out. I'm retiring in May or > I'd mention KS. There are some Anthropology depts among these too. > > Bob > > > > Thanks again for your feedback and answering my many questions! > > > > Dave > > > > "R. Rankin" wrote: > > The place to start with Biloxi is John R. Swanton and James Owen Dorsey, A > > Dictionary of the Biloxi and Ofo Languages. BAE Bulletin 47, 1912. Paula > > Einaudi's U. of Colorado dissertation from about '74 is based on D&S and is a > > good starting place for further work. I reviewed the book for IJAL and have > > written a few additional papers on Biloxi and Ofo. The Smithsonian has > Dorsey's > > original Biloxi field notes which may contain additional information. Gatschet > > did a little earlier field work incorporated by Dorsey. Mary Haas located a > > woman in about 1934 who could remember a few words of Biloxi and she published > a > > paper in IJAL in about 1968 entitled "The last words of Biloxi". Randy Graczyk > > has a nice paper on Biloxi switch-reference particles in MS form. > > > > There is much about Biloxi morphosyntax that needs clarification. Einaudi's > > sketch is a beginning, but the definitive Biloxi grammar is yet to be written. > > I don't think another "dissertation length" treatise would cover it. It is > > pretty much a career's worth of work for somebody. Not me -- I have noodled > > around with it, but I'm too old and have too much on my plate already. I hope > > you or someone else will work with what's available. > > > > Hint: Take Dorsey's two series of stop consonants (plain and with subscript > > dots) seriously. They represent distinct phonological series that were missed > > by virtually everybody after Dorsey. > > > > Another hint: A single linguist per language guarantees totally inadequate > > coverage. There is still much to analyze in Dakotan, and numerous linguists > > have been trying to understand how that language works for well over 150 > years. > > The other Siouan languages haven't seen nearly as much work. There's plenty to > > do with both texts and speakers in a variety of languages, and if it's done > > right, both speakers and linguists will appreciate the effort. > > > > Bob > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "David Kaufman" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 6:54 PM > > Subject: Re: Hidatsa update > > > > > > > Thanks, John B., for your response and update on Hiraca. Glad to hear from > > you and know you're still involved in the tribe's efforts to revitalize it. > > > > > > Also, I wanted to ask the list about Biloxi. I was informed that there are a > > lot of texts available. I'm not sure if it's still spoken or if it's one of > the > > unfortunate extinct Siouan languages. Also, I'm wondering if anyone is > > currently involved in its research. Since I'm still willing and able to work > on > > a Siouan language, and since right now it's rather difficult financially for > me > > to travel across the country to do fieldwork, I feel I'd be in a very good > > position to study an "extinct" language which involves only written materials > > and texts. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can get more info on this > > language and its current status and where I may be able to get hold of copies > of > > its texts? > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > Dave Kaufman > > > > > > John Boyle wrote: > > > Hello, I'm wondering what the status is right now of work on the Hiraca > > (Hidatsa) and Hocak (Winnebago) languages. I have not seen list email > > correspondence from John Boyle recently, whom I know was working on Hiraca (at > > least he was a couple of years ago when I visited Chicago). I wouldn't mind > > getting hold of any new documentation, dictionaries, updated grammars, or any > > other materials which may have been recently published, or which I may obtain > > for my own library and self-study purposes. I recently sent an email regarding > > Cherokee and Hawaiian. (I take it by the lack of response that there are no > > Siouanists out there also delving into these non-Siouan languages, or know of > > anyone who does.) These are the two indigenous languages I'm putting most of > my > > efforts into right now, but I always keep an eye on Hiraca, Hocak, and some > > other Siouan languages as well, although I'm not formally or professionally > > involved in working on these languages. It's strictly for my own > > > information and personal interest. Thanks. Dave > > Kaufmandvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > > > > Well, I'm still working on Hidatsa. I have just completed a dissertation > > chapter on relative clauses which is more or less ready to go. It is pretty > > theoretical with a lot of syntactic trees, but if anyone would like a copy, > I'd > > be happy to send a pdf. I have also spent a good chunk of the summer entering > > Wes Jones' Word List/Dictionary into an excel spread sheet, so that it is > > searchable. Unfortunately, I use fonts that are probably not compatible for PC > > users. I hope to do a find and replace in the near future so that it is > > available for the schools on the reservation and anyone else who would like a > > copy. Throughout the coming year, I plan on checking all of the words and > > adding more to the list. All in all, it is a really good word list although > > some of the non-traditional words are not agreed upon by some people, so we'll > > want to flag those. > > > We are also working on lesson plans and grammar exercises for the > > schools to ensure that we are in line with all of the "No Child Left Behind" > > guidelines. In addition, we hope to be completing a "Sketch" for Lincolm on > > Hidatsa within the next year and a half. With regards to texts, I have > > completed interlinear breakdowns for all of the Lowie and Earth Lodge texts in > > addition to several others, giving us a total of 13 completed texts (which is > > over 1150 lines). There is still some inconsistency within the texts as my > > analysis has changed over the years, so I wouldn't feel so comfortable giving > > these out. In addition, some of the Hidatsa feel that some of these stories > > shouldn't be told to outsiders, so we still have to work through that > culturally > > sensitive point. > > > Other than that, things are going well on Ft. Berthold. The new > > immersion programs are working well for the younger children and the high > school > > programs are becoming more uniform in their content. > > > With regards to Hocank, I assume that Helmbrecht is still actively > > working on the language and I know that there are very active language > > revitalization programs going on on all of the reservations. > > > > > > > > > So that's what's going an as far as I know. > > > > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > > > > John (Boyle not Koontz) > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! > > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. 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However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon Oct 11 15:05:22 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 09:05:22 -0600 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: <20041011023617.18962.qmail@web53808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The Siouan Archive files were originally prepared on punch cards in the early 1970s. Over the years they have been transferred from cards to nine-inch tapes, then to 3.25 inch disks, and now to a CD. What used to be a large closet-full of boxes and file cabinets is now one CD. However, each step in the update was merely copying for the most part. The six-bit character set restrictions we started with have not been changed, so there is a lot of two and three character encoding of complex symbols (we didn't even have lower case roman letters in our first character set). Currently a student with some interest in programming is writing conversion algorithms to make the database look more like the printed version. He has finished Kennard's Mandan, and oddly enough, the next assignment I have given him is the Biloxi texts and dictionary. He's doing this as a volunteer, however, so I don't know when he might get done. The Archive contains none of the manuscripts, just the printed versions of the texts and dictionary. It's in a very primitive data-base format (data bases were new and primitive when we started, too); it's really only searchable with a word-processor-like "find" command for particular strings. But the labor intensive part of transferring the data from print to electronics is done. John Koontz may know how to send you the Biloxi files electronically; I don't, but I can copy and mail you a CD if that will be useful. On the other hand, I think you might profit from studying the printed form for a bit, with Einaudi as a guide, and see if we get an improved character-set version of the Biloxi in the near future. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Sun, 10 Oct 2004, David Kaufman wrote: > Already ordered a copy of the dictionary--a used hardback in "good" condition through Amazon. Should be arriving in the next week or so. I'm not sure if this one has the texts in it, but a NEW copy (which was all I saw) with texts costs $99.00! A bit much at the moment. Eventually I'm sure I'll get it, but I'll see where I get with the other things, especially the ordered dictionary, first. > > Are these U of Colorado Siouan archives something I can access online? Also going to track down the IJAL article. So, Bob, you mentioned you did a couple of papers on Biloxi-Ofo? Is this something you could email copies of, or forward via snail mail? > > I'm also wondering if, since Biloxi is the farthest afield of the Siouan languages, it is also the most divergent? I know in the case of Cherokee it became the most divergent of the Iroquois family because of its fairly early shift farther south. Wonder if the same is true of Biloxi in the Siouan family. It'll be interesting to compare Hidatsa, in the far north, with Biloxi, in the far south, to see how much these two Siouan languages have diverged. > > Thanks again! > > Dave > > "R. Rankin" wrote: > Oh, and don't forget the computer files of D&S's texts and dictionaries at the > U. of Colorado's Siouan Archive. It was recorded in the older ASCII symbol set > with all-CAPS and numerals for diacritics, but it can be dubbed down into > Windows symbols/formatting by you. It's much easier to search than the book > (which should always be on hand for double checking for typoes. > > Bob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "R. Rankin" > To: > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 3:45 PM > Subject: Re: Biloxi update > > > > > Can the dictionary be special ordered perhaps through Borders or > Amazon.com? > > > > There are lots of used copies floating around. Amazon.com's websites > > incorporates inventories from several other antiquarian booksellers. check > > there first. > > > > > May I request a copy of Einaudi's dissertation from U of Colorado by phone > or > > email to be sent to me? > > > > It was published by Garland Press. There should be used copies floating > around. > > > > Whom would I contact at the Smithsonian to get copies of Dorsey's field notes? > > > > Go to the National Anthropological Archives website and start there. They > > charge an arm and a leg for photocopying but may have the Biloxi on microfilm. > > I don't know. > > > > > I would imagine documenting an "extinct" language has its own problems, > since > > there are no longer native speakers left with which to confirm data. But I > > suppose it also has its advantages in that one doesn't have to go through the > > long and difficult process of establishing rapports with native speakers and > > become involved in tribal politics which I've heard sometimes happens in field > > work. It seems my main difficulty would just be in gathering, from a > distance, > > all the extant materials and prior work that has been done. > > > > Better look at Dorsey and Swanton first, and Einaudi. It's true that for > > philological analysis of texts lots of comparative work is useful. > > > > > I'm also curious about one other thing: since I currently have an MA (not a > > PhD) in linguistics, would it be too illogical to assume that once one is > > already involved in analysis of a language, that it would be easier to be > > accepted to a PhD-granting university? I mean if I were to make a career of > > analyzing a language and would be developing the material for a dissertation > > anyway, and then some!, wouldn't this also suggest easier acceptance into a > > program? I have actually considered applying to Canadian or British > > universities where I understand all that's required is research and a > > dissertation, and extra course work is not needed as is the case here in the > US. > > I'm nearly 42 years old, so of course time is an issue for me in achieving a > > PhD. Not that I'm hellbent on achieving a PhD (it really doesn't matter that > > much to me either way) but since I'd already be doing the research and work > that > > a dissertation would entail, why not? > > > > I'm sure there are lots of Ph.D. programs in Linguistics that would love to > have > > applicants. This is especially true with international student applications > > down 20 or 30%. You'd maybe want a local Siouanist and definitely the > > availability of comparative linguistics if possible. That restricts the > > possibilities somewhat. At the moment I guess you might think of Colorado, > > Chicago, UCSB, UCLA, UCB, Indiana, Utah, SUNY Buffalo, UBC, Regina, Toronto in > > no particular order. I'm probably leaving someone out. I'm retiring in May > or > > I'd mention KS. There are some Anthropology depts among these too. > > > > Bob > > > > > > Thanks again for your feedback and answering my many questions! > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > "R. Rankin" wrote: > > > The place to start with Biloxi is John R. Swanton and James Owen Dorsey, A > > > Dictionary of the Biloxi and Ofo Languages. BAE Bulletin 47, 1912. Paula > > > Einaudi's U. of Colorado dissertation from about '74 is based on D&S and is > a > > > good starting place for further work. I reviewed the book for IJAL and have > > > written a few additional papers on Biloxi and Ofo. The Smithsonian has > > Dorsey's > > > original Biloxi field notes which may contain additional information. > Gatschet > > > did a little earlier field work incorporated by Dorsey. Mary Haas located a > > > woman in about 1934 who could remember a few words of Biloxi and she > published > > a > > > paper in IJAL in about 1968 entitled "The last words of Biloxi". Randy > Graczyk > > > has a nice paper on Biloxi switch-reference particles in MS form. > > > > > > There is much about Biloxi morphosyntax that needs clarification. Einaudi's > > > sketch is a beginning, but the definitive Biloxi grammar is yet to be > written. > > > I don't think another "dissertation length" treatise would cover it. It is > > > pretty much a career's worth of work for somebody. Not me -- I have noodled > > > around with it, but I'm too old and have too much on my plate already. I > hope > > > you or someone else will work with what's available. > > > > > > Hint: Take Dorsey's two series of stop consonants (plain and with subscript > > > dots) seriously. They represent distinct phonological series that were > missed > > > by virtually everybody after Dorsey. > > > > > > Another hint: A single linguist per language guarantees totally inadequate > > > coverage. There is still much to analyze in Dakotan, and numerous linguists > > > have been trying to understand how that language works for well over 150 > > years. > > > The other Siouan languages haven't seen nearly as much work. There's plenty > to > > > do with both texts and speakers in a variety of languages, and if it's done > > > right, both speakers and linguists will appreciate the effort. > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "David Kaufman" > > > To: > > > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 6:54 PM > > > Subject: Re: Hidatsa update > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, John B., for your response and update on Hiraca. Glad to hear from > > > you and know you're still involved in the tribe's efforts to revitalize it. > > > > > > > > Also, I wanted to ask the list about Biloxi. I was informed that there are > a > > > lot of texts available. I'm not sure if it's still spoken or if it's one of > > the > > > unfortunate extinct Siouan languages. Also, I'm wondering if anyone is > > > currently involved in its research. Since I'm still willing and able to work > > on > > > a Siouan language, and since right now it's rather difficult financially for > > me > > > to travel across the country to do fieldwork, I feel I'd be in a very good > > > position to study an "extinct" language which involves only written > materials > > > and texts. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can get more info on this > > > language and its current status and where I may be able to get hold of > copies > > of > > > its texts? > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > Dave Kaufman > > > > > > > > John Boyle wrote: > > > > Hello, I'm wondering what the status is right now of work on the Hiraca > > > (Hidatsa) and Hocak (Winnebago) languages. I have not seen list email > > > correspondence from John Boyle recently, whom I know was working on Hiraca > (at > > > least he was a couple of years ago when I visited Chicago). I wouldn't mind > > > getting hold of any new documentation, dictionaries, updated grammars, or > any > > > other materials which may have been recently published, or which I may > obtain > > > for my own library and self-study purposes. I recently sent an email > regarding > > > Cherokee and Hawaiian. (I take it by the lack of response that there are no > > > Siouanists out there also delving into these non-Siouan languages, or know > of > > > anyone who does.) These are the two indigenous languages I'm putting most of > > my > > > efforts into right now, but I always keep an eye on Hiraca, Hocak, and some > > > other Siouan languages as well, although I'm not formally or professionally > > > involved in working on these languages. It's strictly for my own > > > > information and personal interest. Thanks. Dave > > > Kaufmandvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, I'm still working on Hidatsa. I have just completed a dissertation > > > chapter on relative clauses which is more or less ready to go. It is pretty > > > theoretical with a lot of syntactic trees, but if anyone would like a copy, > > I'd > > > be happy to send a pdf. I have also spent a good chunk of the summer > entering > > > Wes Jones' Word List/Dictionary into an excel spread sheet, so that it is > > > searchable. Unfortunately, I use fonts that are probably not compatible for > PC > > > users. I hope to do a find and replace in the near future so that it is > > > available for the schools on the reservation and anyone else who would like > a > > > copy. Throughout the coming year, I plan on checking all of the words and > > > adding more to the list. All in all, it is a really good word list although > > > some of the non-traditional words are not agreed upon by some people, so > we'll > > > want to flag those. > > > > We are also working on lesson plans and grammar exercises for the > > > schools to ensure that we are in line with all of the "No Child Left Behind" > > > guidelines. In addition, we hope to be completing a "Sketch" for Lincolm on > > > Hidatsa within the next year and a half. With regards to texts, I have > > > completed interlinear breakdowns for all of the Lowie and Earth Lodge texts > in > > > addition to several others, giving us a total of 13 completed texts (which > is > > > over 1150 lines). There is still some inconsistency within the texts as my > > > analysis has changed over the years, so I wouldn't feel so comfortable > giving > > > these out. In addition, some of the Hidatsa feel that some of these stories > > > shouldn't be told to outsiders, so we still have to work through that > > culturally > > > sensitive point. > > > > Other than that, things are going well on Ft. Berthold. The new > > > immersion programs are working well for the younger children and the high > > school > > > programs are becoming more uniform in their content. > > > > With regards to Hocank, I assume that Helmbrecht is still actively > > > working on the language and I know that there are very active language > > > revitalization programs going on on all of the reservations. > > > > > > > > > > > > So that's what's going an as far as I know. > > > > > > > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > > > > > > > John (Boyle not Koontz) > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! From rankin at ku.edu Mon Oct 11 16:39:08 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 11:39:08 -0500 Subject: Biloxi update Message-ID: > Are these U of Colorado Siouan archives something I can access online? Also going to track down the IJAL article. So, Bob, you mentioned you did a couple of papers on Biloxi-Ofo? Is this something you could email copies of, or forward via snail mail? [RLR: ] Basically, I estabilished that Biloxi had two stop series for certain, probably aspirated and unaspirated, but we don't know the exact phonetic correlates. Everyone else had "normalized" it to a single series and disregarded Dorsey's diacritics. I may have a printout of that somewhere. At this year's siouan conference I also did a talk on what happened to the active/stative split in OVS. You'll need to talk with David Rood about the computer files. I'm also wondering if, since Biloxi is the farthest afield of the Siouan languages, it is also the most divergent? I know in the case of Cherokee it became the most divergent of the Iroquois family because of its fairly early shift farther south. Wonder if the same is true of Biloxi in the Siouan family. [RLR: ] I'm not sure what "most divergent" would mean. Catawba is certainly the most divergent, but it's so different we don't consider it Siouan per-se (although there's no reason why you couldn't). Blair can fill you in on what's available there. Within Siouan proper I don't know that any of the three attested OVS languages is "more divergent" than the rest. The whole subgroup is different from the other major subgroups, but the inventory of grammatical categories in OVS is essentially the same familiar one as MVS. Personally, I consider Crow the most different from what I have experience with, but that's just me. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BARudes at aol.com Mon Oct 11 22:55:12 2004 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:55:12 EDT Subject: Biloxi update Message-ID: I concur with Bob's statement about Catawba; it is much more divergent from the other Siouan languages in phonology, morphology, syntax, and lexicon than they are from one another. Bob has elsewhere compared the divergence of Catawba from the Siouan languages to the divergence between Oscan or Umbian and the Romance languages, which collectively belong to the Italic family of languages. I use the term Siouan-Catawban to refer to the ancestor of both the Siouan and Catawban langauges. The Catawban languages include Woccon, as well as perhaps other languages spoken in colonial times in the Carolinas, and Catawba. There remains an enormous amount of linguistic research to be done on the Catawba language. Franck Speck published quite a number of Catawba texts and there are a few others in the unpublished field notes of other researchers (e.g. Albert Gatschet, Truman Michelson, Raven McDavid, Frank Siebert). I am working on a grammar and dictionary of the language as time permits but there is always room for another linguist to work with the documentary material, which is fairly extensive. Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Oct 12 04:54:57 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 22:54:57 -0600 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: <01fa01c4aed9$8551e6d0$0eb5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Oct 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > There is much about Biloxi morphosyntax that needs clarification. > Einaudi's sketch is a beginning, but the definitive Biloxi grammar is > yet to be written. ... > > Hint: Take Dorsey's two series of stop consonants (plain and with > subscript dots) seriously. They represent distinct phonological series > that were missed by virtually everybody after Dorsey. I have a few additional suggestions. Einaudi simplified the over-differentiated vowel system recorded by Dorsey by deleting the diacritics. This is a good first approximation, but doesn't quite work. For example spi 'black' => supi by this approach, whereas is Dorsey's and comparative evidence suggests that the form must be sapi, cf. Da sapa, OP sabe, etc., with for /a/. Einaudi didn't really appreciate the pervasiveness of the "irregular" or "syncopating" or "second" paradigms in Siouan languages, and I think she didn't look carefully enough at things like the posibility of conditioned differences in paradigms for, e.g., different kinds of "k" initial stems. Naturally any examination of this should take into consideration the identity of the "k" initial morpheme involved and, in this way and others, of contrasts between k and k-dot - the two series of stops Bob refers to. Dale Nicklas and Bob Rankin have demonstrated that a certain familiarity with Muskogean is very useful in understanding Biloxi! One should always read Haas's paper. Not least for her advice in properly handling Dosey & Swanton! > Another hint: A single linguist per language guarantees totally > inadequate coverage. There is still much to analyze in Dakotan, and > numerous linguists have been trying to understand how that language > works for well over 150 years. The other Siouan languages haven't seen > nearly as much work. There's plenty to do with both texts and speakers > in a variety of languages, and if it's done right, both speakers and > linguists will appreciate the effort. I've always thought it might be instructive to comapre the volume of material on an relatively neglected Indo-European language like, say, Albanian, or, for that matter something extinct and ill-represented, like Oscan or Umbrian, with the volume of material on Dakota. I suspect the IE language wins every time! Haven't done the math, though. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Oct 12 05:08:45 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 23:08:45 -0600 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: <20041010185829.85551.qmail@web53805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Oct 2004, David Kaufman wrote: > [Rankin] John R. Swanton and James Owen Dorsey, A Dictionary of the > Biloxi and Ofo Languages. BAE Bulletin 47, 1912. Paula Einaudi's U. of > Colorado dissertation from about '74 is based on D&S and is a good > starting place for further work. The Smithsonian has Dorsey's original > Biloxi field notes which may contain additional information. > [Kaufman] Can the dictionary be special ordered perhaps through Borders > or Amazon.com? A very viable approach with BAE stuff is to xerox them! > [K] May I request a copy of Einaudi's dissertation from U of Colorado by > phone or email to be sent to me? The usual mode of distribution for dissertations is to order them from University Microfilms International. Apparently they are still back to being called that. http://www.il.proquest.com/umi/dissertations/ The best way to do that may be to go to your local reference department and ask how that is done these days. You used to have to look up the ordering codes in Dissertations Abstracts International, which used to occupy shelves and shelves. I suspect there is now a Web interface. Fofr recent dissertaitons you can often get the code from the SSILA site, I think. > [K] Whom would I contact at the Smithsonian to get copies of Dorsey's > field notes? You would write to the SI's National Anthropological Archives or check their web site: http://www.nmnh.si.edu/naa/ From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Oct 12 05:22:31 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 23:22:31 -0600 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: <20041010185829.85551.qmail@web53805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Oct 2004, David Kaufman wrote: > I would imagine documenting an "extinct" language has its own problems, > since there are no longer native speakers left with which to confirm > data. The operative phrase is hapax legomenon. Learn to love it. > But I suppose it also has its advantages in that one doesn't have to go > through the long and difficult process of establishing rapports with > native speakers and become involved in tribal politics which I've heard > sometimes happens in field work. The extinction of the Biloxi langauge shouldn't be confused with the extinction of the Biloxi people. They're still around, if consolidated with other groups. http://www.tunica.org/ http://users.aol.com/donh523/navapage/tunica.htm http://www.nsula.edu/folklife/database/cultures/NativeAmer/TunicaBiloxi.html http://www.eda.gov/ImageCache/EDAPublic/documents/pdfdocs/20louisiana_2epdf/v1/20louisiana.pdf That's just a sample of what you get by googling "biloxi tribe." It doesn't deal with any remants in Texas, etc. From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 12 06:51:19 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 23:51:19 -0700 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --The extinction of the Biloxi langauge shouldn't be confused with the extinction of the Biloxi people. They're still around, if consolidated with other groups.-- I googled the web and found the info on Tunica-Biloxi. I wonder, if there's still a sizeable community of descendants, if they'd be interested in a language revitalization program at some point in the future, once the language has been adequately documented.... I saw in another email that it's suggested that knowledge of Muskogean helps with Biloxi. But Muskogean of course is a different family. Is this because of close proximity and influence, such as the case with Latin Rumanian and its Baltic/Slavic influences due its closer geographic proximity to these non-Latin languages? Thanks for the info! Dave Koontz John E wrote: On Sun, 10 Oct 2004, David Kaufman wrote: > I would imagine documenting an "extinct" language has its own problems, > since there are no longer native speakers left with which to confirm > data. The operative phrase is hapax legomenon. Learn to love it. > But I suppose it also has its advantages in that one doesn't have to go > through the long and difficult process of establishing rapports with > native speakers and become involved in tribal politics which I've heard > sometimes happens in field work. The extinction of the Biloxi langauge shouldn't be confused with the extinction of the Biloxi people. They're still around, if consolidated with other groups. http://www.tunica.org/ http://users.aol.com/donh523/navapage/tunica.htm http://www.nsula.edu/folklife/database/cultures/NativeAmer/TunicaBiloxi.html http://www.eda.gov/ImageCache/EDAPublic/documents/pdfdocs/20louisiana_2epdf/v1/20louisiana.pdf That's just a sample of what you get by googling "biloxi tribe." It doesn't deal with any remants in Texas, etc. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ahartley at d.umn.edu Tue Oct 12 13:44:32 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 08:44:32 -0500 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > On Sun, 10 Oct 2004, David Kaufman wrote: > >>I would imagine documenting an "extinct" language has its own problems, >>since there are no longer native speakers left with which to confirm >>data. > > > The operative phrase is hapax legomenon. Well, by a stretch, maybe. A hapax legomenon is a word or phrase that appears only once in the record (i.e., 'once' meaning 'one time only,' not 'at some time in the past'). For example: APNEUMATIC Of or pertaining to the non-existence of soul or spirit; non-spiritual, e.g., "The apneumatic theory of Dr. Rogers." Many words, of course, deserve their hapax status. Alan From rankin at ku.edu Tue Oct 12 16:05:55 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 11:05:55 -0500 Subject: Biloxi update Message-ID: The Biloxis had a fellow named Day who is an archaeologist/anthropologist working for them for awhile. I don't believe he's there any longer, but he phoned me once and asked for copies of what I'd written and I sent him some things. They may be in the possession of the Tunica-Biloxi tribe or Dr. Day himself. Language retention is one thing. Language revival is quite another. Be very careful about making promises (or things people might perceive as promises even if you don't) that can't be kept. About all you could do is provide some reference and maybe a few learning materials. The rest is up to them, and when people find out just how hard it is to master a language they know nothing about, very, very, very few of them have the time, patience and motivation to follow through (after all, most of them have to put food on the table!). Then some of them will start looking around for someone to "blame" for the general lack of success of the program, and guess who they'll turn to. . . . This doesn't mean linguists shouldn't try: it justs means you need to be very careful about what you claim or even suggest can be done. There are "action linguists" who make a reputation going around the country giving pep talks to tribes about language revival. "You can do it if you just have the will!!" is the message. But then they leave town and YOU get to take it in the ear if people don't have the 6 hours a day to put into language study, and coming in for a couple of hours every Wednesday night somehow doesn't do the trick. Sorry to sound like such a curmudgeon, but the success rate of the revival programs isn't impressive so far. We all try to do our best, but some of us don't have a clear idea of the possible. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Kaufman" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 1:51 AM Subject: Re: Biloxi update > --The extinction of the Biloxi langauge shouldn't be confused with the > extinction of the Biloxi people. They're still around, if consolidated > with other groups.-- I googled the web and found the info on Tunica-Biloxi. I wonder, if there's still a sizeable community of descendants, if they'd be interested in a language revitalization program at some point in the future, once the language has been adequately documented.... > > I saw in another email that it's suggested that knowledge of Muskogean helps with Biloxi. But Muskogean of course is a different family. Is this because of close proximity and influence, such as the case with Latin Rumanian and its Baltic/Slavic influences due its closer geographic proximity to these non-Latin languages? > > Thanks for the info! > > Dave > > > Koontz John E wrote: > On Sun, 10 Oct 2004, David Kaufman wrote: > > I would imagine documenting an "extinct" language has its own problems, > > since there are no longer native speakers left with which to confirm > > data. > > The operative phrase is hapax legomenon. Learn to love it. > > > But I suppose it also has its advantages in that one doesn't have to go > > through the long and difficult process of establishing rapports with > > native speakers and become involved in tribal politics which I've heard > > sometimes happens in field work. > > The extinction of the Biloxi langauge shouldn't be confused with the > extinction of the Biloxi people. They're still around, if consolidated > with other groups. > > http://www.tunica.org/ > http://users.aol.com/donh523/navapage/tunica.htm > http://www.nsula.edu/folklife/database/cultures/NativeAmer/TunicaBiloxi.html > http://www.eda.gov/ImageCache/EDAPublic/documents/pdfdocs/20louisiana_2epdf/v1/20louisiana.pdf > > That's just a sample of what you get by googling "biloxi tribe." It > doesn't deal with any remants in Texas, etc. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Oct 12 16:52:27 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 10:52:27 -0600 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: <416BDFC0.4060200@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > > The operative phrase is hapax legomenon. > > Well, by a stretch, maybe. A hapax legomenon is a word or phrase that > appears only once in the record (i.e., 'once' meaning 'one time only,' > not 'at some time in the past'). That's what I meant. Things that appear once in the texts. If they are puzzling - they aren't always - you have the problem that you can't get additional examples to work them out. There are other issues, too of course. For example, even multiple examples are not enough sometimes, if they are all the same, or inadequate in some other way. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Oct 12 16:49:40 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 18:49:40 +0200 Subject: biloxi update Message-ID: > I saw in another email that it's suggested that knowledge of Muskogean helps with Biloxi. But Muskogean of course is a different family. Is this because of close proximity and influence, such as the case with Latin Rumanian and its Baltic/Slavic influences due its closer geographic proximity to these non-Latin languages?<< Baltic/Slavic influences?? Would you plz enlighten me about the Baltic influence since I only know about the vast influence of Slavic (among others)? Romanian is widely influenced by Slavic (e.g. dragoste, duh, vinovat/nevinovat, sticlã, nevastã) Turkish (e.g. tutun, bucluc, rahat, musafir, ciorap, geamantan, halat) German (e.g. s,naidãr, s,rub, chelnãr, grãdinã, cartof, granit,ã) Hungarian (e.g. pahar, hotãrit(?), vamã, porunci, crãciun) French (e.g. etaj, butoi) etc. BTW, the Siouan archive is still unaccessible (tried it from several links and with three different browsers). I don't think that a firewall or the like can be the culprit. It looks like smth is wrong with the server there. Alfred From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Oct 12 17:03:49 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 11:03:49 -0600 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: <20041012065119.38342.qmail@web53805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, David Kaufman wrote: > I saw in another email [from Koontz] that it's suggested that knowledge > of Muskogean helps with Biloxi. But Muskogean of course is a different > family. Is this because of close proximity and influence, ... Without getting into the rest, the answer up to this point is yes. That is, there are influences, loans, etc., that are presumably due to close proximity. In regard to the earlier question on divergence, I'd say that all three Southeastern languages are obviously Siouan though rather divergent. Tutelo strikes me as more typically Siouan, but this is a fuzzy sort of judgement. In some ways Dakota is rather atypical, for example, contradiction in terms as that may seem. In contrast, Catawba and Woccon don't seem Siouan at all, but are related to Siouan by systematic cognates. The term Siouan-Catawban (or Catawban-Siouan) seems appropriate. From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Tue Oct 12 17:05:31 2004 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark-Awakuni Swetland) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:05:31 -0500 Subject: retention, revival, and promises real or imagined Message-ID: Aloha All, I just wanted to echo Bob's comments about retention and revival. It is very easy to be perceived as making promises to pull some sort of reinvigorated language out of the hat. Many community members have a strong desire to see the language reborn... but like Bob said, they don't have the time/energy/commitment/fill in the blank___ whatever it takes, to make it happen. mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Rankin" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 11:05 AM Subject: Re: Biloxi update > Language retention is one thing. Language revival is quite another. Be very careful about making promises (or things people might perceive as promises even if you don't) that can't be kept. . . . This doesn't mean linguists shouldn't try: it justs means you need to be very careful about what you claim or even suggest can be done. > Bob > From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 12 16:51:51 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:51:51 -0700 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: <011201c4b075$5bcdc250$11b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Well, clearly it would be up to the members of the tribe or their descendants to do the actual revitalization, depending on how eager they are to reconnect with their cultural and linguistic heritage. As a linguist/instructor, I could give them some learning material, as you say, but I would certainly not guarantee or promise them anything. And, if they decided they didn't want to revitalize their language or culture, that's also their choice. We can't "force" them to do anything, nor should we! Thanks for the input. Dave "R. Rankin" wrote: The Biloxis had a fellow named Day who is an archaeologist/anthropologist working for them for awhile. I don't believe he's there any longer, but he phoned me once and asked for copies of what I'd written and I sent him some things. They may be in the possession of the Tunica-Biloxi tribe or Dr. Day himself. Language retention is one thing. Language revival is quite another. Be very careful about making promises (or things people might perceive as promises even if you don't) that can't be kept. About all you could do is provide some reference and maybe a few learning materials. The rest is up to them, and when people find out just how hard it is to master a language they know nothing about, very, very, very few of them have the time, patience and motivation to follow through (after all, most of them have to put food on the table!). Then some of them will start looking around for someone to "blame" for the general lack of success of the program, and guess who they'll turn to. . . . This doesn't mean linguists shouldn't try: it justs means you need to be very careful about what you claim or even suggest can be done. There are "action linguists" who make a reputation going around the country giving pep talks to tribes about language revival. "You can do it if you just have the will!!" is the message. But then they leave town and YOU get to take it in the ear if people don't have the 6 hours a day to put into language study, and coming in for a couple of hours every Wednesday night somehow doesn't do the trick. Sorry to sound like such a curmudgeon, but the success rate of the revival programs isn't impressive so far. We all try to do our best, but some of us don't have a clear idea of the possible. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Kaufman" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 1:51 AM Subject: Re: Biloxi update > --The extinction of the Biloxi langauge shouldn't be confused with the > extinction of the Biloxi people. They're still around, if consolidated > with other groups.-- I googled the web and found the info on Tunica-Biloxi. I wonder, if there's still a sizeable community of descendants, if they'd be interested in a language revitalization program at some point in the future, once the language has been adequately documented.... > > I saw in another email that it's suggested that knowledge of Muskogean helps with Biloxi. But Muskogean of course is a different family. Is this because of close proximity and influence, such as the case with Latin Rumanian and its Baltic/Slavic influences due its closer geographic proximity to these non-Latin languages? > > Thanks for the info! > > Dave > > > Koontz John E wrote: > On Sun, 10 Oct 2004, David Kaufman wrote: > > I would imagine documenting an "extinct" language has its own problems, > > since there are no longer native speakers left with which to confirm > > data. > > The operative phrase is hapax legomenon. Learn to love it. > > > But I suppose it also has its advantages in that one doesn't have to go > > through the long and difficult process of establishing rapports with > > native speakers and become involved in tribal politics which I've heard > > sometimes happens in field work. > > The extinction of the Biloxi langauge shouldn't be confused with the > extinction of the Biloxi people. They're still around, if consolidated > with other groups. > > http://www.tunica.org/ > http://users.aol.com/donh523/navapage/tunica.htm > http://www.nsula.edu/folklife/database/cultures/NativeAmer/TunicaBiloxi.html > http://www.eda.gov/ImageCache/EDAPublic/documents/pdfdocs/20louisiana_2epdf/v1/20louisiana.pdf > > That's just a sample of what you get by googling "biloxi tribe." It > doesn't deal with any remants in Texas, etc. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Oct 12 18:10:59 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:10:59 -0500 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164E4D@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: > I'm also wondering if, since Biloxi is the farthest afield of the Siouan languages, it is also the most divergent? I know in the case of Cherokee it became the most divergent of the Iroquois family because of its fairly early shift farther south. Wonder if the same is true of Biloxi in the Siouan family. It'll be interesting to compare Hidatsa, in the far north, with Biloxi, in the far south, to see how much these two Siouan languages have diverged. My sense of this agrees with Bob's. About 10 or 15 years ago, before I had actually tried to learn any Siouan languages, and before I had come up with a method of fiddling with straight glottochronology results by calibrating them on Indo-European languages, I tried doing a Siouan glottochronology. I obtained (uneven) sources for six Siouan languages, including a Lakhota dictionary; the Stabler-Swetland dictionary of Omaha; La Flesche's Osage dictionary; an old Hidatsa dictionary and grammar; Einaudi's Grammar of Biloxi; and two little pamphlet booklets on Iowa-Oto. I counted only the cases between any two languages where I could find words with matching definitions, and if any pair looked conceivably cognate I called it a match. I recall that my results put Omaha and Osage very close together, perhaps splitting about 1400-1600 AD; Dhegiha and Iowa-Oto next closest, perhaps splitting about 800-900 AD; and Lakhota very close to this, perhaps splitting about 700-800 AD. (This would have been MVS, which I now believe to have split a good deal earlier.) Biloxi was more divergent, apparently splitting off about 500 BC. Hidatsa was by far the most dissimilar; my estimate at that time put its split at about 3000 BC. Rory From tmleonard at cox.net Tue Oct 12 18:00:49 2004 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:00:49 -0500 Subject: Ethnographic Bibliography of North America Message-ID: Does anyone have access to the latest version of Murdock's Ethnographic Bibliography of North America (I believe it is now called "Bibliography of Native North Americans")? I'd like to get an update from this bibliography for the ethnic groups "Ponca", "Osage", "Omaha", "Kaw", and "Quapaw". My Xerox copies are over 20 years old and, back then, they didn't include masters theses and doctoral dissertations. For that simple run it seems crazy to sign up for a subscription to Ovid.com or something similar. Anyone know of an internet site that would gives free access to the Bibliography? Or, does anyone on list have access that could make a run for me (he says beggingly)? Thanks, Tom Leonard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 12 18:32:46 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 11:32:46 -0700 Subject: biloxi update In-Reply-To: <416C0B24.5060501@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: Sorry! I actually meant Balkan influence! I'm not an expert on Rumanian, but what I've studied I know that there are Greek-Balkan influences in the grammar. Such as the lack of a "true" infinitive form as still exists in other Latin languages, a trait shared by Modern Greek. Dave "Alfred W. T�ting" wrote: > I saw in another email that it's suggested that knowledge of Muskogean helps with Biloxi. But Muskogean of course is a different family. Is this because of close proximity and influence, such as the case with Latin Rumanian and its Baltic/Slavic influences due its closer geographic proximity to these non-Latin languages?<< Baltic/Slavic influences?? Would you plz enlighten me about the Baltic influence since I only know about the vast influence of Slavic (among others)? Romanian is widely influenced by Slavic (e.g. dragoste, duh, vinovat/nevinovat, sticl�, nevast�) Turkish (e.g. tutun, bucluc, rahat, musafir, ciorap, geamantan, halat) German (e.g. s,naid�r, s,rub, cheln�r, gr�din�, cartof, granit,�) Hungarian (e.g. pahar, hot�rit(?), vam�, porunci, cr�ciun) French (e.g. etaj, butoi) etc. BTW, the Siouan archive is still unaccessible (tried it from several links and with three different browsers). I don't think that a firewall or the like can be the culprit. It looks like smth is wrong with the server there. Alfred --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Oct 12 20:46:29 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 15:46:29 -0500 Subject: biloxi update Message-ID: > Baltic/Slavic influences?? He means "Balkan". Bob From rankin at ku.edu Tue Oct 12 21:26:05 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 16:26:05 -0500 Subject: Biloxi update Message-ID: > Well, clearly it would be up to the members of the tribe or their descendants to do the actual revitalization, . . . That's my point though. It ISN'T "clear". Not to ordinary citizens, Indian People or not, who have never looked at language scientifically or even from a naive learner's point of view. When we, as high mucketymuck linguists from a big university go to a community to study their language, like it or not, the community looks upon *us* as the "experts". And whatever pops out of our mouth in our most relaxed moments can be taken as some kind of eternal truth. It's true that the Army can take an 18 year old right off the turnip truck and turn him into a reasonably fluent speaker of virtually any language in a few months. But ooooh what he has to go through to get from here to there. Nobody's criticising your goals or hopes. It's just that "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king". We are the one-eyed "doctors" and our diagnosis will be taken seriously, right or wrong. > depending on how eager they are to reconnect with their cultural and linguistic heritage. It often works out that there is indeed a variety of different goals in a community. People are often very happy if you can offer, say, an accessible version of an older prayer or invocation they can memorize to use at dinners, council meetings, pow wows or other events. We just need to be mindful of what's do-able within the constraints of each individual community. Bob From rwd0002 at unt.edu Tue Oct 12 21:53:55 2004 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 16:53:55 -0500 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: <011201c4b075$5bcdc250$11b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Quoting "R. Rankin" : > The Biloxis had a fellow named Day who is an archaeologist/anthropologist > working for them for awhile. I don't believe he's there any longer, but he > phoned me once and asked for copies of what I'd written and I sent him some > things. They may be in the possession of the Tunica-Biloxi tribe or Dr. Day > himself. > > Language retention is one thing. Language revival is quite another. Be > very > careful about making promises (or things people might perceive as promises > even > if you don't) that can't be kept. About all you could do is provide some > reference and maybe a few learning materials. The rest is up to them, and > when > people find out just how hard it is to master a language they know nothing > about, very, very, very few of them have the time, patience and motivation > to > follow through (after all, most of them have to put food on the table!). > Then > some of them will start looking around for someone to "blame" for the > general > lack of success of the program, and guess who they'll turn to. . . . This > doesn't mean linguists shouldn't try: it justs means you need to be very > careful > about what you claim or even suggest can be done. There are "action > linguists" > who make a reputation going around the country giving pep talks to tribes > about > language revival. "You can do it if you just have the will!!" is the > message. > But then they leave town and YOU get to take it in the ear if people don't > have > the 6 hours a day to put into language study, and coming in for a couple of > hours every Wednesday night somehow doesn't do the trick. > > Sorry to sound like such a curmudgeon, but the success rate of the revival > programs isn't impressive so far. We all try to do our best, but some of us > don't have a clear idea of the possible. > > Bob I must agree with Bob on this. I have been thinking about this language resuscitation business myself. Another unpleasant consequence is that sooner or later you're asked to complete or add to the language, you are asked to Esperantize, so to speak. As for artificial languages, this can get tricky if two different scholars are doing it. This seems to be a problem with the relatively successful revival of Cornish (Celtic language without native speakers since beginning of the 19th century), where there are two camps arguing on how it should be done, and writing unpleasant things on the internet about each other. If I was asked, I'd say yes, but it would be similar to teaching kids how to read Cesar or Cicero in the original Latin in order to learn more about Western Culture. It would be nice to have children of Biloxi descent being interested in learning to read the Biloxi texts. Anything more might be promising too much. Same of course would work even better with Tunica, because we have a superb grammar, texts, and dictionary by Mary Haas. Willem From rankin at ku.edu Tue Oct 12 22:25:02 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 17:25:02 -0500 Subject: lessons Message-ID: > Another unpleasant consequence is that sooner or later you're asked to complete or add to the language, . . . this can get tricky if two different scholars are doing it. I guess there are some advantages to being the *only* scholar working on the languages I am. :-) That makes my word the "law". Seriously though, the creation of modern vocabulary for things like computers, cellphones, satellites, planes, etc. is an area in which students often enjoy working. Here is where I've actually been able to see some genuine interest in derivational morphology, notably the instrumental prefixes. If 'automobile' was already "something that runs by pressing", then a computer could be "something that runs by striking" with the ga- prefix. Younger people can actually get fired up about derivation this way. Whatever works. . . . Bob From munro at ucla.edu Wed Oct 13 04:48:57 2004 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 21:48:57 -0700 Subject: position for Iroquoianist Message-ID: I've been asked to announce a potential job opening for an Iroquoianist. This is a 6-9 month position with a possibility of renewal in the Cherokee Studies Program at Western Carolina University. I know there are people who work on Iroquoian who read this list, and others who may know people who work on Cherokee and other Iroquoian languagaes -- please pass this on! If you are interested, please contact Carrie McLachlan Cherokee Studies McKee 105C Western Carolina University Cullowhee, NC 28723 828-227-2303 mclachlan at email.wcu.edu Thanks! Pam Munro -- Pamela Munro, Professor, Linguistics, UCLA UCLA Box 951543 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/munro/munro.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Wed Oct 13 05:12:26 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 07:12:26 +0200 Subject: biloxi update Message-ID: > (Dave) Sorry! I actually meant Balkan influence! I'm not an expert on Rumanian, but what I've studied I know that there are Greek-Balkan influences in the grammar. Such as the lack of a "true" infinitive form as still exists in other Latin languages, a trait shared by Modern Greek. << Sorry too for my being dim-witted :( Yes, this shared (syntactical) feature seems to be the base for speaking of "Balkan-type" languages (such as Greek, Romanian, Bulgarian, Serbo-Croatian - sorry for making them one language ;) -, Albanian, but not Hungarian!), e.g. Rom.: "vreau sã cânt" vs. e.g. Ital.: "vorrei cantare"). Yet, are there still others?? (Sorry for this OT) Alfred From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 13 06:02:27 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:02:27 -0700 Subject: position for Iroquoianist In-Reply-To: <416CB3B9.30302@ucla.edu> Message-ID: I couldn't do this right now, but it's nice to see this! As I have said before, if there are other Iroquoianists, and particularly Cherokeeists (?!), who read this list, I'd like to hear from them as I'm also a Tsalagi aficionado, and I'm constantly trying to analyze and learn it with limited materials and resources, and no native speakers. It'd be great to have someone to correspond with about Tsalagi! Thanks, Pam. Dave Kaufman dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Pamela Munro wrote: I've been asked to announce a potential job opening for an Iroquoianist. This is a 6-9 month position with a possibility of renewal in the Cherokee Studies Program at Western Carolina University. I know there are people who work on Iroquoian who read this list, and others who may know people who work on Cherokee and other Iroquoian languagaes -- please pass this on! If you are interested, please contact Carrie McLachlan Cherokee Studies McKee 105C Western Carolina University Cullowhee, NC 28723 828-227-2303 mclachlan at email.wcu.edu Thanks! Pam Munro -- Pamela Munro,Professor, Linguistics, UCLAUCLA Box 951543Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/munro/munro.htm --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Wed Oct 13 10:37:53 2004 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Q.) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 05:37:53 -0500 Subject: Ethnographic Bibliography of North America In-Reply-To: <000f01c4b085$6818a100$fef60d44@tu.ok.cox.net> Message-ID: Hi Tom, I don’t have the access you’re looking for, but would be interested in anything you find on “Osage”. Nice to hear from you on this list. Thanks, Carolyn Quintero -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of Tom Leonard Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 1:01 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Ethnographic Bibliography of North America Does anyone have access to the latest version of Murdock's Ethnographic Bibliography of North America (I believe it is now called "Bibliography of Native North Americans")? I'd like to get an update from this bibliography for the ethnic groups "Ponca", "Osage", "Omaha", "Kaw", and "Quapaw". My Xerox copies are over 20 years old and, back then, they didn't include masters theses and doctoral dissertations. For that simple run it seems crazy to sign up for a subscription to Ovid.com or something similar. Anyone know of an internet site that would gives free access to the Bibliography? Or, does anyone on list have access that could make a run for me (he says beggingly)? Thanks, Tom Leonard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 13 18:06:03 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:06:03 -0700 Subject: biloxi update In-Reply-To: <416CB93A.2020801@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: --Rom.: "vreau s� c�nt"-- exactly like Mod Greek "I want I sing" = I want to sing. The only other similarity and possible influence I can think of off-hand is that both Bulgarian and Rumanian have post-posed definite articles, e.g. Bulg. cveteto (-to) and Rum. calul (-ul), although this trait isn't shared by Greek; I don't know about other Balkan languages. This is of course the opposite of other Mod Latin languages which have the article before the noun. This discussion of infinitives or lack thereof leads me to a Siouan question: I know in Cherokee, from what I know so far, there is an actual infinitive form of the verb. But it seems to me that Hidatsa does not have an infinitive form, and I believe that the third person "unmarked" form of the verb is considered the "neutral" or dictionary form. (John B., please correct if I'm wrong.) Do other Siouan languages have infinitives, or do they simply have the "unmarked" form of verbs like Hidatsa? Dave "Alfred W. T�ting" wrote: > (Dave) Sorry! I actually meant Balkan influence! I'm not an expert on Rumanian, but what I've studied I know that there are Greek-Balkan influences in the grammar. Such as the lack of a "true" infinitive form as still exists in other Latin languages, a trait shared by Modern Greek. << Sorry too for my being dim-witted :( Yes, this shared (syntactical) feature seems to be the base for speaking of "Balkan-type" languages (such as Greek, Romanian, Bulgarian, Serbo-Croatian - sorry for making them one language ;) -, Albanian, but not Hungarian!), e.g. Rom.: "vreau s� c�nt" vs. e.g. Ital.: "vorrei cantare"). Yet, are there still others?? (Sorry for this OT) Alfred --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Oct 13 19:39:47 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:39:47 -0500 Subject: biloxi update Message-ID: --Rom.: "vreau sc cbnt"-- exactly like Mod Greek "I want I sing" = I want to sing. > The only other similarity and possible influence I can think of off-hand is that both Bulgarian and Rumanian have post-posed definite articles, e.g. Bulg. cveteto (-to) and Rum. calul (-ul), although this trait isn't shared by Greek; I don't know about other Balkan languages. This is of course the opposite of other Mod Latin languages which have the article before the noun. [RLR: ] Yeah, Macedonian, Albanian and the Torlakian dialects of Serbian. Also Aromanian, Istroromanian and Meglenoromanian. This discussion of infinitives or lack thereof leads me to a Siouan question: I know in Cherokee, from what I know so far, there is an actual infinitive form of the verb. But it seems to me that Hidatsa does not have an infinitive form, and I believe that the third person "unmarked" form of the verb is considered the "neutral" or dictionary form. (John B., please correct if I'm wrong.) Do other Siouan languages have infinitives, or do they simply have the "unmarked" form of verbs like Hidatsa? [RLR: ] No, other Siouan languges typically cite the (unmarked) 3rd sg of the verb. In Dakotan apparently some speakers cite the -e grade of "Ablaut" and others cite the -a grade. I think I heard that from David, but I'm not expert on Dakotan. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Oct 13 19:57:33 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 13:57:33 -0600 Subject: Siouan Infinitives In-Reply-To: <20041013180603.86351.qmail@web53803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Oct 2004, David Kaufman wrote: > This discussion of infinitives or lack thereof leads me to a Siouan > question: I know in Cherokee, from what I know so far, there is an > actual infinitive form of the verb. But it seems to me that Hidatsa > does not have an infinitive form, and I believe that the third person > "unmarked" form of the verb is considered the "neutral" or dictionary > form. (John B., please correct if I'm wrong.) Do other Siouan > languages have infinitives, or do they simply have the "unmarked" form > of verbs like Hidatsa? I don't believe any of the Siouan languages have a specific nominalized form, infinitive or otherwise. A possible exception to this would be the *aru- and *awu- (not sure I have this right!) forms in Crow-Hidatsa and their agnate forms in Mandan. Perhaps these can receive inflection? Apart from this, however, it appears that different ablaut grades are preferred for citation form than for third person singular in some languages: - I think a-grade is preferred for citation forms in Dakotan. I'm not convinced I understand the rules or conventions behind this, however. - Randy Graczyk has pointed out that the ablaut grade of the citation form of various Crow verbs can differ from the ablaut-grade of predicative forms. - Something incipiently like this occurs in Dhegiha where third person singular proximate takes the a-grade (and the plural marker), but citation forms usually take the e-grade. I believe this is more or less a nominalized form, or, to be more precise I believe that there is a tendency for obviative forms to occur more often in nominalized clauses than in main clauses. I don't know what the precise conditioning is. If anyone has worked this out, I'd be delighted to hear about it! I have also seen pairs of male and female imperatives used as citation forms in some cases in the Swetland "UmoNhoN Iye of Elizabeth Stabler" for Omaha, and they are all a-grades. From mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu Wed Oct 13 21:59:59 2004 From: mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Marianne Mithun) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:59:59 -0700 Subject: Job at Santa Barbara Message-ID: Assistant Professor, Computational/Corpus Linguistics The Linguistics Department of the University of California, Santa Barbara seeks to hire a specialist in computational and/or corpus linguistic approaches to language. The appointment will be tenure-track at the Assistant Professor level, effective July 1, 2005. We are especially interested in candidates whose research shows theoretical implications bridging computational and/or corpus linguistics and general linguistics, and who can interact with colleagues and students across disciplinary boundaries at UCSB. Candidates will be preferred whose research engages with the departmental focus on functional and usage-based approaches to explaining language. Research experience with corpora of naturally occurring language use is required. Candidates must have demonstrated excellence in teaching, and will be expected to teach a range of graduate and undergraduate courses in both computational/corpus linguistics and general linguistics. Ph.D. in linguistics or a related field such as cognitive science or computer science is required. Ph.D. normally required by the time of appointment. Applicants should submit hard copy of curriculum vitae, statement of research interests, 1-2 writing samples, and full contact information for three academic references to the Search Committee, Linguistics Department, UCSB, Santa Barbara, CA 93106-3100. Fax and email applications not accepted. Inquiries may be addressed to the above address or via email to lingsearch at linguistics.ucsb.edu. Tentative deadline is November 12, 2004. However, the position will remain open until filled. Preliminary interviews will be conducted at the Linguistic Society of America, although attendance is not required for consideration. The department is especially interested in candidates who can contribute to the diversity and excellence of the academic community through research, teaching and service. UCSB is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action employer. Address for Applications: Attn: Search Committee Dana Spoonerow University of California, Santa Barbara, Linguistics Department 3607 South Hall Santa Barbara, CA 93016 United States of America Applications are due by 12-Nov-2004 Contact Information: Professor Cumming Email: lingsearch at linguistics.ucsb.edu Tel: 805-893-7241 Fax: 805-893-7769 Website: http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Oct 13 23:07:50 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 18:07:50 -0500 Subject: Siouan Infinitives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John wrote: > - Something incipiently like this occurs in Dhegiha where third person > singular proximate takes the a-grade (and the plural marker), but citation > forms usually take the e-grade. I believe this is more or less a > nominalized form, or, to be more precise I believe that there is a > tendency for obviative forms to occur more often in nominalized clauses > than in main clauses. I don't know what the precise conditioning is. If > anyone has worked this out, I'd be delighted to hear about it! Just to get some concrete examples going here, do you mean the difference between things like: Dhiza' (i). He took/is taking/takes it. and Dhize' tHe u'udaN ta akH(a). take nom. good future-by-someone-else's-choice Hopefully he will take it. ? Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Oct 14 03:32:51 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 21:32:51 -0600 Subject: Siouan Infinitives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Oct 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > Just to get some concrete examples going here, do you mean > the difference between things like: > > Dhiza' (i). > He took/is taking/takes it. > > and > > Dhize' tHe u'udaN ta akH(a). > take nom. good future-by-someone-else's-choice > Hopefully he will take it. Yes, thanks, that would be one kind of example. Or Ki MoNshchiN'ge=akHa ikoN'=akHa zhu'gigtha=bi=ama And Rabbit the grmo the he was with his own vs. MoNshchiN'ge ikoN'=thiNkHe zhu'gigthe ahi'=bi=ama Rabbit grmo the he with his own he arrived Also maybe ibisoNde xi'tha=akHa e moNghe ibisoNde ata= xti eagles the those sky pressed against far away very And compound nouns like moNzune'dhe 'stove' And nominalized nouns like wasa'be 'blackbear' Further afield, I think sometimes the verb in relative clases is in the e-grade, though this is certainly usually not the case. I don't happen to have any examples in hand, however. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Thu Oct 14 07:13:58 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 09:13:58 +0200 Subject: biloxi update Message-ID: > (Dave) The only other similarity and possible influence I can think of off-hand is that both Bulgarian and Rumanian have post-posed definite articles, e.g. Bulg. cveteto (-to) and Rum. calul (-ul), although this trait isn't shared by Greek; I don't know about other Balkan languages. This is of course the opposite of other Mod Latin languages which have the article before the noun. << My guess is that the Balkan substrate (Dacian?) might have had this feature (of post-posed definite articles) and some languages (like Latin) were 'open' to it (homo ille vs. ille homo -> omul - l'uomo, l'homme) but others were not. Yet, this doesn't work well for Slavic tongues (cf. Bulgarian!). BTW, the different uses of ablaut/non-ablaut verb forms in e.g. Dakota still seems really puzzling to me. Alfred From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Oct 14 13:28:49 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 08:28:49 -0500 Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) In-Reply-To: <416E2736.7060708@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: >> (Dave) The only other similarity and possible influence I can think of off-hand is that both Bulgarian and Rumanian have post-posed definite articles, e.g. Bulg. cveteto (-to) and Rum. calul (-ul), although this trait isn't shared by Greek; I don't know about other Balkan languages. This is of course the opposite of other Mod Latin languages which have the article before the noun. << > (Alfred) My guess is that the Balkan substrate (Dacian?) might have had this > feature (of post-posed definite articles) and some languages (like > Latin) were 'open' to it (homo ille vs. ille homo -> omul - l'uomo, > l'homme) but others were not. Yet, this doesn't work well for Slavic > tongues (cf. Bulgarian!). Swedish, and I suppose Norwegian and Danish, have post-posed definite articles too. What about Gothic? Rory From rankin at ku.edu Thu Oct 14 14:06:33 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 09:06:33 -0500 Subject: Jobs at Kansas Message-ID: The Linguistics Dept. here at KU has two openings. One is in the area of applied linguistics and language teaching (with qualifications in some language family). The other is in Cognitive Science. I do not have direct access to the specific job descriptions so I cannot post them here right now. They should be posted on Linguist List however (if they aren't, do let me know). Bob From rankin at ku.edu Thu Oct 14 14:19:51 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 09:19:51 -0500 Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) Message-ID: > Swedish, and I suppose Norwegian and Danish, have post-posed definite > articles too. >>From the point of view of usual head/dependent orderings, virtually ALL European languages should have postposed definite articles and demonstratives just as they do adjectives. But among SVO languages especially there are lots of exceptions to the "usual". You have a couple of crusty old (well only one is crusty and old) Balkanists on this lists and I'm waiting for Catherine to check in. :-) Bob From BARudes at aol.com Thu Oct 14 14:43:03 2004 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:43:03 EDT Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) Message-ID: Actually, you can also add me to the list of crusty (and more or less old) Balkanists on the list. I have held off comment because the facts of the Balkan linguistic area are really quite complicated and not easily summarized in emails. Two of the features have already been mentioned: (1) the use of subordinate clauses in place of infinitives and (2) the post-posed article. On the phonological side, features include the the shift of the vowel /a/ to schwa (and later, in Romanian, to barred-i) before /n/ and the tendancy for velar stops to become labials before /t/ and /s/. There are also a variety of shared lexical items and idioms. The "hard-core" members of the Balkan linguistic area are Daco-Romanian (i.e. standard Romanian), Istro-Romanian, Macedo-Romanian, Megleno-Romanian, Aromanian, and Albanian (Geg and Tosk). The Slavic languages in the area show fewer of the features, presumably because they were relative late comers. (Note that Bulgaria is called Bulgaria because the language spoken there before modern Bulgarian was Bulgar, a Turkic language, and Macedonia is named after the Macedonian people (Philip and Alexander the Great's folks), who spoke an Indo-European language that was not Slavic). Greek shows fewer of the features presumably because it is on the periphery of the area. The generally held hypothesis is that the Balkan features arose due to substratum influence from Dacian, Thracian, or Illyrian (more likely Thracian, since both Romanian and Albanian show all the traits); however, there is so little material available on these languages that no one knows for sure. The Balkan features might just as well have been independent innovations in one or another of these languages that spread to the neighboring languages. In any event, none of the features of the Balkan linguistic area are unique to the area; what makes it a linguistic area is that the set of features is shared to a greater or lesser extent among the languages. Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Thu Oct 14 14:50:05 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 08:50:05 -0600 Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No, Gothic behaves very much like German and Old English in this regard. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 14 Oct 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > > > > >> (Dave) The only other similarity and possible influence I can think of > off-hand > is that both Bulgarian and Rumanian have post-posed definite articles, > e.g. Bulg. cveteto (-to) and Rum. calul (-ul), although this trait isn't > shared by Greek; I don't know about other Balkan languages. This is of > course the opposite of other Mod Latin languages which have the article > before the noun. << > > > > (Alfred) My guess is that the Balkan substrate (Dacian?) might have had > this > > feature (of post-posed definite articles) and some languages (like > > Latin) were 'open' to it (homo ille vs. ille homo -> omul - l'uomo, > > l'homme) but others were not. Yet, this doesn't work well for Slavic > > tongues (cf. Bulgarian!). > > Swedish, and I suppose Norwegian and Danish, have post-posed definite > articles too. What about Gothic? > > Rory > From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Thu Oct 14 15:26:34 2004 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:26:34 -0500 Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) Message-ID: OK, ok... here I am. (And yes, I'm pretty crusty too. "Geezerly" is the preferred adjective around our house.) Anyhow -- I confess I haven't been reading the whole Biloxi thread (until the intriguing "Balkan" heading popped up) and I'm not going to go back and read it all now, free time and knowledge about Biloxi both being in short supply. How did we get onto postposed articles? Does this have anything to do with the (lack of) infinitives also being bandied about on the list? The Siouan/Balkan sprachbund??? Various Balkan and Scandinavian languages do indeed have postposed articles, but they're syntactically very different from the phrase-final articles (have we agreed to call them articles?) in Dhegiha. At least in the languages I'm most familiar with (Bulgarian/Macedonian/east Serbian dialects) the article appears not at the end of the noun phrase, but suffixed to the FIRST constituent of the phrase. So we have classic Bulgarian examples like: (TA is the article, in caps to make it easily visible) kolaTA 'the car' zelenaTA kola 'the green car' staraTA zelena kola 'the old green car' mojaTA stara zelena kola '(the) my old green car' I said "first constituent" and not "first word" because if the first word is an adverb, the article follows the adjective that adverb modifies, i.e. it is suffixed to the AdjP (roughly... the exact formulation is a matter of hot debate in Balkan Slavicist circles). For example: izvunredno staraTA zelena kola 'the unusually old green car' But in any case the article is suffixed to the first/leftmost piece of the nominal phrase, in some sense. A standard analysis is that the article is syntactically phrase-INITIAL, so the underlying form is something like "TA ... kola", and it "hops" onto the following word through some kind of prosody-driven phonological process, very much like other clitics in these languages (and a variety of "second position" elements in lots of other languages). Demonstratives are also phrase-initial determiners, but not being clitics, they stay initial and don't "hop": TAZI stara zelena kola 'this old green car' / ONAZI stara zelena kola 'that old green car'. Is Romanian the same, Bob? This is obviously nothing like the situation of articles in Dhegiha languages, where they are phrase-FINAL, following the noun and all sorts of modifiers. As for the question of whether determiners in European (SVO) languages "should" be postposed/phrase-final, that depends on whether determiners are modifiers (within NP) or heads (of DP). If determiners head their own projection, you would expect them to be DP-final in OV languages, as they in fact are in Omaha-Ponca and the rest of Dhegiha, and you would expect them to be DP-initial in VO languages, as they in fact are in European languages, including Bulgarian and I think all the other European languages that have "postposed" articles. (Though my Norwegian is just about nil and my Albanian not a whole lot better!) Cheers, Catherine > Swedish, and I suppose Norwegian and Danish, have post-posed definite > articles too. >>From the point of view of usual head/dependent orderings, virtually ALL European languages should have postposed definite articles and demonstratives just as they do adjectives. But among SVO languages especially there are lots of exceptions to the "usual". You have a couple of crusty old (well only one is crusty and old) Balkanists on this lists and I'm waiting for Catherine to check in. :-) Bob From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Thu Oct 14 18:11:38 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 20:11:38 +0200 Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) Message-ID: > (Bob) You have a couple of crusty old (well only one is crusty and old) Balkanists on this lists ... << Well, I'm crusty and old as well, although not a linguist or even Balkanist (but dealing with Balkan tongues since my early days ;) ). > (Catherine) kolaTA 'the car' zelenaTA kola 'the green car' staraTA zelena kola 'the old green car' mojaTA stara zelena kola '(the) my old green car'<< Rom.: mas,ina - the car (mas,inã - car) mas,ina verde or mas,ina cea verde - the green car mas,ina verde cea veche - the old green car or vechea mas,inã verde - (see above) vechea mea mas,inã verde - (the) my old green car mas,ina mea veche cea verde - (see above) Pretty similar to Bulgarian, isn't it? > (David) No, Gothic behaves very much like German and Old English in this regard. << Yes, but what's with Gothic "Atta unsar þu in himinam..." ? I know that it's not the definite article postposed here (it seems that old Gothic doesn't have a definite article) - but is this like in German "Vater unser" with the possessive pronoun postposed in an 'ungrammatical' way? BTW, how do you judge the Lakota construction "Ateunyanpi mahpiya ekta nanke cin"? Aren't there two sentences: "ateunyan pi" and "(mahpiya ekta) nanke" made a noun with kind of adjectival phrase by the following 'definite article' _kin_? Alfred From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Thu Oct 14 18:31:11 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:31:11 -0600 Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) In-Reply-To: <416EC15A.9030000@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: > > > (David) No, Gothic behaves very much like German and Old English in > this regard. << > > Yes, but what's with Gothic "Atta unsar þu in himinam..." ? > I know that it's not the definite article postposed here (it seems that > old Gothic doesn't have a definite article) - but is this like in German > "Vater unser" with the possessive pronoun postposed in an > 'ungrammatical' way? My Gothic is very rusty -- haven't looked at it in about 35 years (talk about crusty!). I'm going to guess that this example is imitative of the Latin from which it was likely translated and not typical. > > BTW, how do you judge the Lakota construction "Ateunyanpi mahpiya ekta > nanke cin"? Aren't there two sentences: "ateunyan pi" and "(mahpiya > ekta) nanke" made a noun with kind of adjectival phrase by the following > 'definite article' _kin_? Ate7unyanpi is a nominalized verb; a very ordinary way to say "my father" is atewaye kin. It's the head of a relative clause; the clause is marked by the final "kin". There is no article after "ate7unyanpi" because heads of relative clauses are ALWAYS marked indefinite, even if they're unique, like this one is. At least, that's my analysis. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA From jpboyle at uchicago.edu Thu Oct 14 18:49:44 2004 From: jpboyle at uchicago.edu (John Boyle) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:49:44 -0500 Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > >> >> BTW, how do you judge the Lakota construction "Ateunyanpi mahpiya ekta >> nanke cin"? Aren't there two sentences: "ateunyan pi" and "(mahpiya >> ekta) nanke" made a noun with kind of adjectival phrase by the following >> 'definite article' _kin_? > >Ate7unyanpi is a nominalized verb; a very ordinary way to say "my father" >is atewaye kin. It's the head of a relative clause; the clause is marked >by the final "kin". There is no article after "ate7unyanpi" because heads >of relative clauses are ALWAYS marked indefinite, even if they're unique, >like this one is. At least, that's my analysis. > I think that David's analysis is correct. The head has to be marked as indefinite even if the referent is clearly definite. This is true in all (or most) of the Siouan languages since they all have internally headed relative clauses (IHRCs) (we think). The possibly exception being Hocank. There seems to be a constraint that the head of an IHRC can not be marked as definite. This is what Williamson (1987) calls "The Indefiniteness Constraint". This seems to be the case because of how the heads get interpreted in the semantic component of the grammar. John Boyle From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Oct 14 19:37:23 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 20:37:23 +0100 Subject: Atta unsa Message-ID: Folks: The Gothic translation was mentioned Its author, Wulfila/Ulfilas, was half-Goth and half-Greek (his mother was from Cappadocia, I think) and translated the Bible literally from Greek. The oprning phrase i the Pater Noster in Greek is Pater he:mo:n, which is 'Father of-us'. That got changed into Pater noster in the Latin translation, Faeder U:re in Old English, Vater unser in German, and so on - that is, a quirk in the Latin (which norally has 'Noster Pater') has been perpetuated in this sentence in lots of languages. Even in the Balkan language Kalaidzhi Romani one finds: Dade amare, instead of Amare Dade. I assume it was traslated from a Bulgarian version which had something like Otche nash (at a guess), also father-our. Pater noster is atypical of Latin element order and shouldn't be taken, um, as gospel when it comes to discussing head and modifier order. Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Oct 14 22:59:34 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 16:59:34 -0600 Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) In-Reply-To: <96.1731299e.2e9fea77@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 BARudes at aol.com wrote: > The "hard-core" members of the Balkan linguistic area are Daco-Romanian > (i.e. standard Romanian), Istro-Romanian, Macedo-Romanian, > Megleno-Romanian, Aromanian, and Albanian (Geg and Tosk). The Slavic > languages in the area show fewer of the features, presumably because > they were relative late comers. (Note that Bulgaria is called Bulgaria > because the language spoken there before modern Bulgarian was Bulgar, a > Turkic language, and Macedonia is named after the Macedonian people > (Philip and Alexander the Great's folks), who spoke an Indo-European > language that was not Slavic). Greek shows fewer of the features > presumably because it is on the periphery of the area. The generally > held hypothesis is that the Balkan features arose due to substratum > influence from Dacian, Thracian, or Illyrian (more likely Thracian, > since both Romanian and Albanian show all the traits); however, there is > so little material available on these languages that no one knows for > sure. When you put it this way it occurs to me that the Balkan area coincides more or less with the territory of the mediaeval (Balkan) Bulgar Empire, especially the "second" version, and also with the Balkan section of the Byzantine Empire at its peak, both of which had extensive, interconnected, and literate state and church hierachies. Turkish more or less obliterated the pre-existing languages of the Anatolian or "Eastern" Greek (etc.) section of the Byzantine Empire, and the Byzantine Empire itself recolonized the extensive Slavic intrusions into the area of modern Greece, so the characterization of the "area" as "Balkan" may be more or less accidental. I have the impression that Serbo-Croatian and Macedonian-Bulgarian Slavic dialect groups are fairly closely related, right? But the latter more or less participates in the area, while the former doesn't? It appears that you generally get angry disapproving noises from the Greek side of the frontier if you refer to the any Slavic language or the people speaking it as Macedonian, but the usage seems to be fairly well established at present. And it appears that a great many of the inhabitants of Macedonia in Alexander's day spoke non-Greek Indo-Euroepean languages, anyway, so the evolution of the term has an ancient precedent. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Fri Oct 15 18:10:52 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:10:52 +0200 Subject: Atta unsar Message-ID: > (Anthony) Even in the Balkan language Kalaidzhi Romani one finds: Dade amare, instead of Amare Dade. << I checked several versions in various Gypsie dialects and found both ways: Rómanes (Germany) Dad amaro, so tu sal ando them, kerveschno te ol tro anav, tro vilago te al. Oda te ol, so tu kameha ando them taj te upri phuv. Amaro diveseskero maro de amenge sako di taj fa de amenge amare grihi," sar te amen fa das odalenge, so amenge ertschavipe kerde. Taj ma amen ledsche upro ertschavo drom, harn pomoschin amenge ertschavipestar. Rómanes (France/Alsace) Maro Dat fun o bolepen Tiro lap te vel brinžedo Tur kontirepen te velo Tur vila te veli kerdi Ap i pup ar an o bolepen De mende ko dives maro maaro fun ko dives Cajre mare sindi ar cajra me nina kol ke prasa men Rike men kaj hi darenes Le men vri fun o dsungelo. Amen Rómanes (Transylvania - Lutheran Roma) Amaro Dad Rómanes (Romania) Amaro Dad, savo san ade bolipe, Teyavel arasno tiro lov, Teyavel tiro rayan, Teyavel tiro kam. Sir pe bolipe, ad'a i pe phu. De amenge, adadives, amaro sabdivesuno maro; I khem amenge amare dosha Sir i ame khemas amare doshvalenge ; I nalija amen ade perik Ne muk amen fuyipastar: Ad'a teyavel. Vlach Romani (Romania, Serbia etc.) Amaro Dad kai san ande o cheri! Ke tjiro anav t'avel svintsime; ke tjiri amperetsia t'avel; ketu keres sar tu kames pe e phuv sar ande o cheri. De amenge adjes amaro manrro sakone djesesko. Yertisar amenge amare bezexendar, sar vi ame jertisaras kudalendar kai amisaile amende. Na zurnav amen, numa skipisar amen katar o xitro. Ke tuke si, ande sa le BERSH kai avena, e amperetsia, e zor thai o vestimos. Amen. Also checking my sources, I couldn't retrieve the form _dade_ up to the moment. Is this kind of vocative? BTW, this rendering reminds me of a Dakota version: Amaro diveseskero maro de amenge sako di Anpetu otoiyohi anpetu woyute unk7u po Alfred From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sat Oct 16 10:18:24 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 12:18:24 +0200 Subject: Atta unsar Message-ID: >> (Anthony) Even in the Balkan language Kalaidzhi Romani one finds: Dade amare, instead of Amare Dade. <<<< > (Alfred) Also checking my sources, I couldn't retrieve the form _dade_ up to the moment. Is this kind of vocative? << Addendum: Sorry, at a closer look I found quite some other forms for 'father' apart from the most commonly attested _dad_ - also ones with vocalic finals among them (be it in German, North/West or South-East/East European dialects): dhâd (Kraus) dad(t) (Miskow) dat (Frenckel, Tielich, Rozwadowski*, Colocci*, Wratislaw*) dada (Schäffer, Black) dado (Pischel, Iversen) dade (Bischoff, Grellmann*, Ludolfus*, Vulcanius*) daade (Beytrag) dadi (Grellmann*) dati (Blankenburg) daddus (Smart) tat (Frenckel, Tielich) taat (Blankenburg) tata (Calvet) tadi (Colocci, it.) da (Kruse*) datta (Frenckel - expl. referred to as vocative!) tatta (Tielich) The asterixed sources refer to Eastern/South-Eastern dialects. BTW, v. Sowa thinks that all forms with final vowel are vocative forms (Rudolf von Sowa: 'Wörterbuch des Dialekts der deutschen Zigeuner'. Leipzig 1898. Alfred From rankin at ku.edu Sat Oct 16 15:29:37 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 10:29:37 -0500 Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) Message-ID: > I have the impression that Serbo-Croatian and Macedonian-Bulgarian Slavic > dialect groups are fairly closely related, right? But the latter more or > less participates in the area, while the former doesn't? They're all classified as South Slavic, but the definite article issogloss splits Serbian dialectally. It's all essentially areal, not extending much into Hungarian, Ukrainian, etc. in the NW/NE but including all Romanian dialects, all of Bulgarian, Macedonian and Albanian. There are entire books, several of them, on the Balkan Sprachbund, so I won't try to get into it on this list. There is evidence though, that both Bulgaria and Romania were bilingual Slavic/Romance with the current situation crystalizing out north and south of the Danube. And since Albanian seafaring and fishing terminology is all borrowed, the consensus is that they lived much farther inland to the north and east also. Bob > > It appears that you generally get angry disapproving noises from the Greek > side of the frontier if you refer to the any Slavic language or the people > speaking it as Macedonian, but the usage seems to be fairly well > established at present. And it appears that a great many of the > inhabitants of Macedonia in Alexander's day spoke non-Greek Indo-Euroepean > languages, anyway, so the evolution of the term has an ancient precedent. > From rankin at ku.edu Sat Oct 16 16:02:33 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 11:02:33 -0500 Subject: 2005 Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference. Message-ID: I just returned from Kaw City, OK and the tribal chairman of the Kaw Nation has approved our request to hold the 2005 SCLC meeting at the tribal complex in Kaw City. Justin McBride, the Kaw language coordinator arranged this for us and we owe him a vote of thanks. The next thing to do is to decide on precise dates so that I can publicize the meeting with other linguistics organizations and publications. We normally meet in very late May or sometime in June. Would it be possible for those of you who will be attending to let me know as soon as possible if you have any weekends during this period that you have definite conflicts? We had discussed the possibility of holding the meeting at the time of the Osage dances so that interested persons could attend these in the evenings. Does anyone recall what weekend(s) this was? Carolyn? That's the good news. The bad news is that while I was there the Kaw Nation lost Elmer Clark, the son of Maude Rowe, who had recorded her language with me back in the '70's. Elmer was just about the last person I know of who could even recall a little of the Kaw language. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Sat Oct 16 16:33:04 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 11:33:04 -0500 Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) Message-ID: > A standard analysis is that the article is > syntactically phrase-INITIAL, so the underlying form is something like "TA > ... kola", and it "hops" onto the following word through some kind of > prosody-driven phonological process, very much like other clitics in these > languages (and a variety of "second position" elements in lots of other > languages). Demonstratives are also phrase-initial determiners, but not > being clitics, they stay initial and don't "hop": TAZI stara zelena kola > 'this old green car' / ONAZI stara zelena kola 'that old green car'. > Is Romanian the same, Bob? Romanian is mostly the same in that the article attaches to noun modifiers preceding the noun copil 'child' copilu-l 'child-the' = the child mare-le copil 'big-the child' = the big child But in Romanian the demonstratives, acest, aceasta, acel, acela, etc. (there are lots), are not derived from the same base as the articles, so there isn't the nice synchronic evidence for initial placement and subsequent "hopping" that you have in Bulgarian/Macedonian. I don't know the status in Albanian. BTW, while I'm on Romanian articles, the textbook analysis of the masculine singular nominative-accusative article as a postposed -ul is wrong. The apparent suffix -ul is actually bimorphemic. The /-u/ is historically the masculine singular ending on the noun stem. The article is just the /-l/. (Or, more abstractly, /-lu/). There was a sound change that lost the -u regularly. So the proper segmentation of, say, calului 'of the horse' is calu + lu + i 'horse + art. + genitive. Not, as found in standard textbooks, *cal + ul + ui, or, worse, *cal + ului. Trust me, I wrote a whole dissertation of this stuff. :-) > This is obviously nothing like the situation of articles in Dhegiha > languages, where they are phrase-FINAL, following the noun and all sorts of > modifiers. I completely agree. > As for the question of whether determiners in European (SVO) languages > "should" be postposed/phrase-final, that depends on whether determiners are > modifiers (within NP) or heads (of DP). If determiners head their own > projection, you would expect them to be DP-final in OV languages, as they > in fact are in Omaha-Ponca and the rest of Dhegiha, and you would expect > them to be DP-initial in VO languages, as they in fact are in European > languages, including Bulgarian and I think all the other European languages > that have "postposed" articles. Yes, if you believe in DP's that would be the analysis. I won't be drawn into that one though. :-) I think the answer there depends on higer-level theoretical beliefs. Bob From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Sat Oct 16 18:16:28 2004 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Q.) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:16:28 -0500 Subject: 2005 Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference. In-Reply-To: <028a01c4b399$8d5cbd90$26b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: I've just put out three email requests for information on the dates of the dances in Grayhorse (nearest to Kaw City), Pawhuska and Hominy. And Justin would probably know, since he lives in Pawhuska and has many Osage friends. I'll get back to you as soon as I have any information. Grayhorse is always the first of the three dances, and is usually the first weekend in June, but once happened to take place the last weekend in May. Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of R. Rankin Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 11:03 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: 2005 Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference. I just returned from Kaw City, OK and the tribal chairman of the Kaw Nation has approved our request to hold the 2005 SCLC meeting at the tribal complex in Kaw City. Justin McBride, the Kaw language coordinator arranged this for us and we owe him a vote of thanks. The next thing to do is to decide on precise dates so that I can publicize the meeting with other linguistics organizations and publications. We normally meet in very late May or sometime in June. Would it be possible for those of you who will be attending to let me know as soon as possible if you have any weekends during this period that you have definite conflicts? We had discussed the possibility of holding the meeting at the time of the Osage dances so that interested persons could attend these in the evenings. Does anyone recall what weekend(s) this was? Carolyn? That's the good news. The bad news is that while I was there the Kaw Nation lost Elmer Clark, the son of Maude Rowe, who had recorded her language with me back in the '70's. Elmer was just about the last person I know of who could even recall a little of the Kaw language. Bob From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sat Oct 16 18:26:42 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 20:26:42 +0200 Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) Message-ID: > (Bob) BTW, while I'm on Romanian articles, the textbook analysis of the masculine singular nominative-accusative article as a postposed -ul is wrong. The apparent suffix -ul is actually bimorphemic. The /-u/ is historically the masculine singular ending on the noun stem. The article is just the /-l/. (Or, more abstractly, /-lu/). There was a sound change that lost the -u regularly. So the proper segmentation of, say, calului 'of the horse' is calu + lu + i 'horse + art. + genitive. Not, as found in standard textbooks, *cal + ul + ui, or, worse, *cal + ului. Trust me, I wrote a whole dissertation of this stuff :-) << I totally agree with that. And that seems to be why in some fix expressions there's still the final -u (without article -l), e.g. _dracu_. Vã ia dracu Fiul Diavolului se duce la Satana: -Tatã, vreau sã mã insor! -Bine fiule, dar vezi sã nu iei o curvã! -Dar tatã, cum stiu cã nu e curvã? -Pãi fiule,iesi cu un Ferarri pe o stradã, clanxonezi, si dacã intoarce capul e curvã, dacã nu ia-o de nevastã.... Iese el pe stradã cu Ferrari, clanxoneazã, dar toate intorc capul. Iese el pe a 2-a stradã cu Ferrari, clanxoneazã, dar toate intorc capul. Iese el pe a 3-a stradã cu Ferrari, clanxoneazã, numai una nu intoarce capul. Se duce la ea si o ia de nevastã. MORALA BANCULUI: Fetelor faceti-vã curve, cã vã ia dracu' !! ;-) Alfred From tmleonard at cox.net Sat Oct 16 18:28:10 2004 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:28:10 -0500 Subject: 2005 Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference. Message-ID: > We had discussed the possibility of holding the meeting at the time of the Osage > dances so that interested persons could attend these in the evenings. Does > anyone recall what weekend(s) this was? Carolyn? The dates for the Osage Illonska dances are generally set in early Spring. Typically, theses dances begin on the first weekend (Thursday-Sunday) in June at Gray Horse (outside Fairfax, OK) followed by dances at Hominy then Pawhuska. Gray Horse is almost always first and nearly always the first weekend in June. The other Districts follow afterward. In recent years Hominy has held their dance on the weekend following Grayhorse. Pawhuska has held their dance 2 weeks after that (they skip one weekend). But, this is not a hard and fast rule. Sometimes Pawhuska is second. Sometimes it's Hominy. Sometimes they skip a weekend. Other times they don't. I believe the exact District order and dates are set at a Committee dinner in the Spring. I don't think you'll be able to nail down specific dates for the Illonska dances until then. From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 16 22:43:06 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 15:43:06 -0700 Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) In-Reply-To: <02a101c4b39d$d0bb7500$26b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Is Bulgarian the only Slavic language to have articles? I've studied Russian, which of course has no articles, and I'm thinking most of the other Slavic tongues don't either, with the exception of Bulgarian. Was Bulgarian the only Slavic language to be so influenced by this Romance and Greek trait of having articles? (And Albanian too, perhaps??) Dave "R. Rankin" wrote: > A standard analysis is that the article is > syntactically phrase-INITIAL, so the underlying form is something like "TA > ... kola", and it "hops" onto the following word through some kind of > prosody-driven phonological process, very much like other clitics in these > languages (and a variety of "second position" elements in lots of other > languages). Demonstratives are also phrase-initial determiners, but not > being clitics, they stay initial and don't "hop": TAZI stara zelena kola > 'this old green car' / ONAZI stara zelena kola 'that old green car'. > Is Romanian the same, Bob? Romanian is mostly the same in that the article attaches to noun modifiers preceding the noun copil 'child' copilu-l 'child-the' = the child mare-le copil 'big-the child' = the big child But in Romanian the demonstratives, acest, aceasta, acel, acela, etc. (there are lots), are not derived from the same base as the articles, so there isn't the nice synchronic evidence for initial placement and subsequent "hopping" that you have in Bulgarian/Macedonian. I don't know the status in Albanian. BTW, while I'm on Romanian articles, the textbook analysis of the masculine singular nominative-accusative article as a postposed -ul is wrong. The apparent suffix -ul is actually bimorphemic. The /-u/ is historically the masculine singular ending on the noun stem. The article is just the /-l/. (Or, more abstractly, /-lu/). There was a sound change that lost the -u regularly. So the proper segmentation of, say, calului 'of the horse' is calu + lu + i 'horse + art. + genitive. Not, as found in standard textbooks, *cal + ul + ui, or, worse, *cal + ului. Trust me, I wrote a whole dissertation of this stuff. :-) > This is obviously nothing like the situation of articles in Dhegiha > languages, where they are phrase-FINAL, following the noun and all sorts of > modifiers. I completely agree. > As for the question of whether determiners in European (SVO) languages > "should" be postposed/phrase-final, that depends on whether determiners are > modifiers (within NP) or heads (of DP). If determiners head their own > projection, you would expect them to be DP-final in OV languages, as they > in fact are in Omaha-Ponca and the rest of Dhegiha, and you would expect > them to be DP-initial in VO languages, as they in fact are in European > languages, including Bulgarian and I think all the other European languages > that have "postposed" articles. Yes, if you believe in DP's that would be the analysis. I won't be drawn into that one though. :-) I think the answer there depends on higer-level theoretical beliefs. Bob --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp Sun Oct 17 07:21:00 2004 From: Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp (Mike Morgan) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 16:21:00 +0900 Subject: Balkan tongues Message-ID: Dave Kaufman asked: > Is Bulgarian the only Slavic language to have articles? I've studied Russian, which of course has > no articles, and I'm thinking most of the other Slavic tongues don't either, with the exception of > Bulgarian. Was Bulgarian the only Slavic language to be so influenced by this Romance and Greek > trait of having articles? Macedonian also has articles (with the literary dialect actually having a triple series - parallel to the triple series of demonstratives). Of course, some (Bulgarians mostly?) would argue that Macedonian is JUST a dialect of Bulgarian. And the same MIGHT be said for the Prizren Serbian (bordering on Macedonian), which is reported (e.g. p. Comrie & Corbett, 386) to have widespread postposed articles. In South Slavdom, but outside what would normally be thought of as the Balkan Sprachbund area, we also find both definite and indefinite articles (en and ta, respectively) in Slovene (although discouraged in the literary language) (ibid, p. 411). It must also be said that these articles are pre- rather than postposed. (We also have the theoretical issue of whether we can really justify a separate category of articles in Slovene, since they appear NOT to be formally distinguished from the demonstrative adjectives.) And clearly far outside the Balkan Sprachbund area, postposed articles are ALSO found in SOME northern Russian dialects. (Sorry, I tried to track down a source - other than my aging memory of years long gone when I was an active Slavicist - but came up blank.) Sources cited: Comrie, Bernard & Greville G Corbett (1993) The Slavonic Languages. London & New York: Routledge. Mike Morgan Kobe City University of Foreign Studies Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sun Oct 17 10:03:51 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 12:03:51 +0200 Subject: Balkan tongues (Sprachbund) Message-ID: For those interested in (and reading German), here's a more recent magister's thesis online: http://www.joergkrusesweb.de/sprache/sprachbund/einleitung/linguistik.html Alfred From rankin at ku.edu Sun Oct 17 14:19:18 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 09:19:18 -0500 Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) Message-ID: As I mentioned, Bulgarian, Macedonian and the Torlak dialects of Serbian have articles -- postposed. I'm told, but have no first-hand knowledge, that a few dialects of Russian well to the East of Moscow use /to/, /ta/, /tot/ as definite articles. I can't vouch for that. Maybe we'd better get back to Siouan? bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Kaufman" To: Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 5:43 PM Subject: Re: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) > Is Bulgarian the only Slavic language to have articles? I've studied Russian, which of course has no articles, and I'm thinking most of the other Slavic tongues don't either, with the exception of Bulgarian. Was Bulgarian the only Slavic language to be so influenced by this Romance and Greek trait of having articles? (And Albanian too, perhaps??) > > Dave > > "R. Rankin" wrote: > > A standard analysis is that the article is > > syntactically phrase-INITIAL, so the underlying form is something like "TA > > ... kola", and it "hops" onto the following word through some kind of > > prosody-driven phonological process, very much like other clitics in these > > languages (and a variety of "second position" elements in lots of other > > languages). Demonstratives are also phrase-initial determiners, but not > > being clitics, they stay initial and don't "hop": TAZI stara zelena kola > > 'this old green car' / ONAZI stara zelena kola 'that old green car'. > > > Is Romanian the same, Bob? > > Romanian is mostly the same in that the article attaches to noun modifiers > preceding the noun > > copil 'child' > copilu-l 'child-the' = the child > mare-le copil 'big-the child' = the big child > > But in Romanian the demonstratives, acest, aceasta, acel, acela, etc. (there are > lots), are not derived from the same base as the articles, so there isn't the > nice synchronic evidence for initial placement and subsequent "hopping" that you > have in Bulgarian/Macedonian. I don't know the status in Albanian. > > BTW, while I'm on Romanian articles, the textbook analysis of the masculine > singular nominative-accusative article as a postposed -ul is wrong. The > apparent suffix -ul is actually bimorphemic. The /-u/ is historically the > masculine singular ending on the noun stem. The article is just the /-l/. (Or, > more abstractly, /-lu/). There was a sound change that lost the -u regularly. > So the proper segmentation of, say, calului 'of the horse' is calu + lu + i > 'horse + art. + genitive. Not, as found in standard textbooks, *cal + ul + ui, > or, worse, *cal + ului. Trust me, I wrote a whole dissertation of this stuff. > :-) > > > This is obviously nothing like the situation of articles in Dhegiha > > languages, where they are phrase-FINAL, following the noun and all sorts of > > modifiers. > > I completely agree. > > > As for the question of whether determiners in European (SVO) languages > > "should" be postposed/phrase-final, that depends on whether determiners are > > modifiers (within NP) or heads (of DP). If determiners head their own > > projection, you would expect them to be DP-final in OV languages, as they > > in fact are in Omaha-Ponca and the rest of Dhegiha, and you would expect > > them to be DP-initial in VO languages, as they in fact are in European > > languages, including Bulgarian and I think all the other European languages > > that have "postposed" articles. > > Yes, if you believe in DP's that would be the analysis. I won't be drawn into > that one though. :-) I think the answer there depends on higer-level > theoretical beliefs. > > Bob > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 17 17:39:09 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 10:39:09 -0700 Subject: Balkan tongues In-Reply-To: <002601c4b419$db672a90$0274a8c0@FM116206905> Message-ID: Thanks for the enlightenment! Northern Russian dialects with postposed articles? Who would have thunk!!! Thanks. Dave Mike Morgan wrote: Dave Kaufman asked: > Is Bulgarian the only Slavic language to have articles? I've studied Russian, which of course has > no articles, and I'm thinking most of the other Slavic tongues don't either, with the exception of > Bulgarian. Was Bulgarian the only Slavic language to be so influenced by this Romance and Greek > trait of having articles? Macedonian also has articles (with the literary dialect actually having a triple series - parallel to the triple series of demonstratives). Of course, some (Bulgarians mostly?) would argue that Macedonian is JUST a dialect of Bulgarian. And the same MIGHT be said for the Prizren Serbian (bordering on Macedonian), which is reported (e.g. p. Comrie & Corbett, 386) to have widespread postposed articles. In South Slavdom, but outside what would normally be thought of as the Balkan Sprachbund area, we also find both definite and indefinite articles (en and ta, respectively) in Slovene (although discouraged in the literary language) (ibid, p. 411). It must also be said that these articles are pre- rather than postposed. (We also have the theoretical issue of whether we can really justify a separate category of articles in Slovene, since they appear NOT to be formally distinguished from the demonstrative adjectives.) And clearly far outside the Balkan Sprachbund area, postposed articles are ALSO found in SOME northern Russian dialects. (Sorry, I tried to track down a source - other than my aging memory of years long gone when I was an active Slavicist - but came up blank.) Sources cited: Comrie, Bernard & Greville G Corbett (1993) The Slavonic Languages. London & New York: Routledge. Mike Morgan Kobe City University of Foreign Studies Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 17 18:39:28 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 11:39:28 -0700 Subject: Siouan "have" verb Message-ID: Hi, Still awaiting my Biloxi dictionary to arrive, but I was reading through some other general Siouan papers I had received awhile back, including Bob Rankin's paper "From Verb to Auxiliary to Noun Classifier and Definite Article: Grammaticalization of the Siouan Verbs 'Sit,' 'Stand,' 'Lie.'" According to your paper, Bob, on page 277, Biloxi has no verb "to have" as in the other Siouan languages, and they had to resort to something like "my father moves" or "my mother sits" (which actually seems to be an alternative way of saying "be" as well.) Since I'm still new to Siouan studies, just wondering what the other Siouan languages do, as far as having an actual verb "have" or even "be" for that matter! Also, as concerns "have," if other Siouan languages do have this verb, is it simply one verb form regardless of what is possessed (as in English)? I ask this, because I know in some other Amerindian languages of other families, such as Cherokee and Navajo, different forms of the verb "have" are used depending on things like size, shape, and texture of the item possessed. To give a Cherokee example: a-gi-ha "I have (something weighty of indefinite shape)" vs. a-quv-ya "I have (something long, narrow, inflexible)." How does Siouan handle this? Dave --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Oct 17 20:30:33 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 14:30:33 -0600 Subject: Siouan "have" verb In-Reply-To: <20041017183928.43273.qmail@web53804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Oct 2004, David Kaufman wrote: > Also, as concerns "have," if other Siouan languages do have this verb, > is it simply one verb form regardless of what is possessed (as in > English)? I ask this, because I know in some other Amerindian languages > of other families, such as Cherokee and Navajo, different forms of the > verb "have" are used depending on things like size, shape, and texture > of the item possessed. To give a Cherokee example: a-gi-ha "I have > (something weighty of indefinite shape)" vs. a-quv-ya "I have (something > long, narrow, inflexible)." How does Siouan handle this? This pretty much depends on the language, I believe. The OP verb 'to have', cognate with similarly glossed verbs in the rest of MVS (except Dakotan) is adhiN (popular othographies would be athiN, with N coming out as raised n). In the Dorsey texts this is used with a variety of things, but not all things. Examples in the first person: zaNzi'-maN'de abdhiN'=tta=miNkhe 'I will have an Osage Orange bow.' Ttiu'dhiNba iz^a'z^e abdhiN 'My name is Lightening in the Lodge' eda'daN abdhiN' gdhu'ba=xti dhidhi'tta 'everything I have is yours' naNbe'=the abdhiN' agdhi ha 'I brought the hand back' ('I hav ethe hand I returned') s^aN'ge=thaN abdhiN' akhi'= thaN a'agdhiN horse the I had it I returned which I sat on it 'I rode the horse that I had' I thought I'd better gloss the last example more carefully as it is the first relative clause I've noticed with 'the' internally and externally. I have the impression that with horses it might be more normal to phrases things with the tta 'alienable possession' form, but these don't get glosses 'have'. I think adhiN' is normally 'have' in the sense of having something that can exist without being possessed. So it wouldn't be normal with kin. wamu'ske abdhiN' bdhu'ga=xti 'all (the) wheat I had ' However, for kin, the causative is normal: ihaN'=adhe his-mother=I-made-her 'I had her for a mother' But: PpaN'kka iNs^?a'ge wiN abdhI 'an old Ponca man I had' (Dorsey thinks someone unrelated living with the family, somebody supported out of a sense of responsibility - "I kept him" - but I wonder if the letter's author means a father-in-law.) didhadi dhathaN' ede=s^te his-father you-had-him unexpected=soever 'even if you had a father' Here I think the use of thaN might be dictated by the skepticism. I have corrected Dorsey's s^athaN (s^ with c) to dhathaN (Dorsey would have cent sign for dh). Also: z^u' dhathaN' 'you had a body' This verb thaN is sometimes translated 'be plentiful', but I think it is possibly more like 'be provided with'. Dorsey writes it explicitly as thaN, with an opening apostrophe, but I am not sure it isn't ttaN. I don't really trust his explicit aspiration marking in OP, because of several cases where it turned out not to be correct. 'not to have' is done with the experiencer verb dhiNge' 'to lack, not to have' From goodtracks at GBRonline.com Mon Oct 18 02:23:16 2004 From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:23:16 -0500 Subject: 2005 Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference. Message-ID: Bob: I know Carolyn spoke to you how the 3 districts set the dates with Grey Horse always the first one and most regularly set during the first weekend of June. Below you mention coordinating the Conference with the Spring Ilonshka (x3), so as interested persons who attend the Dance(s) could attend the Conference in the evening. There are two dance sessions on Thursday, Friday & Saturday. Sunday session begins about 1~2pm after dinner and lasts usually to 8pm or longer. What I am trying to say is that for those who participate and attend these dances, the evenings are no better than the mornings or afternoons to drive the good distance to be at Kaw Nation for the conference. And yes, many individuals who are interested in Osage language do attend the Ilonshka. As Carolyn says, one needs to wait to the Spring to learn what the dates will be for Hominy and Pawhuska, and in recent years there has been some innovative shuffles of dates as she suggested. Permit me to suggest that the better time to set the Conference date (I think) would be for the weekend in June that is not scheduled for any of the well attended Spring Dance Ceremonies. Even if Kaw was just up the road, rather than the hour (plus) drive from any of the three communities, it would be a competing activity and the Ilonska would win without any need to deliberate. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Rankin" To: Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 11:02 AM Subject: 2005 Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference. >I just returned from Kaw City, OK and the tribal chairman of the Kaw Nation >has > approved our request to hold the 2005 SCLC meeting at the tribal complex > in Kaw > City. Justin McBride, the Kaw language coordinator arranged this for us > and we > owe him a vote of thanks. > > We had discussed the possibility of holding the meeting at the time of the > Osage > dances so that interested persons could attend these in the evenings. > Does > anyone recall what weekend(s) this was? > > Bob From rankin at ku.edu Mon Oct 18 03:14:56 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 22:14:56 -0500 Subject: Balkan tongues Message-ID: > Thanks for the enlightenment! Northern Russian dialects with postposed articles? Who would have thunk!!! Thanks. Don't think the Russ ones are postposed, but it would take a much better Slavicist than me to know. B. From rankin at ku.edu Mon Oct 18 03:37:50 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 22:37:50 -0500 Subject: Siouan "have" verb Message-ID: "Have' and 'be' have never really been sorted out within Siouan from a comparative and historical point of view. 'Be in a place' is usually expressed with one of the positionals, although Dhegiha positional verbs derived secondarily from the articles have a reflex of *he, which apparently was a locative 'be', grafted onto the end of the verb. Thus *riNk-he 'sitting', *ariN-he 'moving', t-he 'standing inan.', k-he 'lying'. This can't be coincidence. Other Siouan languages have a 'be' verb with the shape *he or *?e. It it works out to be the latter, with the glottal stop, it would be a homophone or near-homophone (except for V length) of *?e: 'demonstrative'. The list has discussed this before, so you should find it in the archive. 'Be' of class membership is *riN in Dhegiha languages, yiN in Kansa. It is an R-stem with conjugation b-liN, h-niN in Kansa, as in Kka:Nze bliN 'I'm a Kaw'. 'Have' is *ariN in Dhegiha languages = ayiN in Kansa. John already discussed this verb. I'm not so sure that *ariN is found all across Siouan however. It is unclear at the moment whether there is a derivational relationship between 'be' of class membership and 'have' in Dhegiha languages; no one has taken these questions up very much. And, as John said, 'to have X as a kinsman' uses the causative suffix on the kinterm. BTW, the new and improved version of that 1977 paper of mine on the grammaticalization of positionals in Siouan is in the new issue of STUF (Sprach Typologie und Universalien Forschungen). Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Kaufman" To: Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 1:39 PM Subject: Siouan "have" verb > Hi, > > Still awaiting my Biloxi dictionary to arrive, but I was reading through some other general Siouan papers I had received awhile back, including Bob Rankin's paper "From Verb to Auxiliary to Noun Classifier and Definite Article: Grammaticalization of the Siouan Verbs 'Sit,' 'Stand,' 'Lie.'" According to your paper, Bob, on page 277, Biloxi has no verb "to have" as in the other Siouan languages, and they had to resort to something like "my father moves" or "my mother sits" (which actually seems to be an alternative way of saying "be" as well.) Since I'm still new to Siouan studies, just wondering what the other Siouan languages do, as far as having an actual verb "have" or even "be" for that matter! > > Also, as concerns "have," if other Siouan languages do have this verb, is it simply one verb form regardless of what is possessed (as in English)? I ask this, because I know in some other Amerindian languages of other families, such as Cherokee and Navajo, different forms of the verb "have" are used depending on things like size, shape, and texture of the item possessed. To give a Cherokee example: a-gi-ha "I have (something weighty of indefinite shape)" vs. a-quv-ya "I have (something long, narrow, inflexible)." How does Siouan handle this? > > Dave > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Oct 18 04:55:41 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 22:55:41 -0600 Subject: Siouan "have" verb In-Reply-To: <042e01c4b4c3$d8eed650$26b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Oct 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > 'Have' is *ariN in Dhegiha languages = ayiN in Kansa. John already > discussed this verb. I'm not so sure that *ariN is found all across > Siouan however. My apologies if I implied this. I meant to say that it was found in Missisippi Valley Siouan except Dakotan. That is, it occurs in Dhegiha, Ioway-Otoe, and Winnebago. Some details of its morphology are strikingly similar across this group, e.g. OP adhiN' 'to have' (basic) agdhadhiN 'to have one's own' (SUUS) IO aniN' 'to have' (basic) egra'niN 'to have one's own' (SUUS) Ho haniN' 'to have' (basic) ??? (SUUS) The Dhegiha and IO suus looks like it was based on *a...kakriN. The OP verb is inflected a-dha-gdha-niN in the second person, and aNga'gdhadhiN=i in the inclusive, suggesting an inflectional pattern: INC a PRO SUUS PRO ROOT A1 a a' gdha b dhiN (?) 'I have my own' A2 a dha' gdha (s^) niN 'you have your own' A3 a gdha' dhiN 'he has his own' A12 aNg a' gdha dhiN 'we have our own' I've spaced things out to line up comparable elements. As always in OP and Dakotan, the shift of the initial consonant (n in OP; l, etc. in Dakotan) of the *r-stem ends up being the effective marker of the second person with such stems. This pattern connects Dhegiha with IO and Winnebago, but, of course, Dakotan yuha is just as likely to be an innovation, so this isn't much use in subdividing MVS, though it has some merit as an isogloss. > It is unclear at the moment whether there is a derivational relationship > between 'be' of class membership and 'have' in Dhegiha languages; no one > has taken these questions up very much. If *ariN 'to have' is derived from *riN 'to be of a kind' there is a certain parallel with locative pattern of 'have' in other language, e.g., Latin mihi est 'I have' = 'to me is', Russian u menya (yest') 'I have' = 'by me (is)'. However, for an exact parallel we'd expect a stative or dative inflection of *ariN, with the a-locative governing the pronominal This is effectively what happens with the stative *riNk-e 'not to have', though this lacks a locative. (And isn't very productive outside of Dhegiha and maybe IO.) In fact, of course, we get active inflection, and the a-prefix is only dubiously a locative. In OP it doesn't take initial stress, for example, which is typical of locative-a, cf. a'gdhiN 'to sit on'. It acts more like the a-prefix of Dhegiha motion verbs, which has something like commitative force, since typically it only occurs with plurals. In Dhegiha this "naturally" also extends to the third singular proximate forms! The Dakotan element comparable to this "pluralizer" a-prefix in Dhegiha motion verbs is described by Boas & Deloria (1941:94) in these terms: "The verbs of going, coming, and arriving with the prefix ?a- express to go, come, arrive carrying; also collective, to go, come, arrive in a group, evidently with the same meaning of bringing others along; ..." There's an interesting parallel here between the a-prefix in Dakotan motion verbs and the unusual suus form of *ariN to have shown above, which looked like it may have been PMVS *akrariN. The a-forms of Dakotan motion verbs have suus-froms in glo- or gloa-. For example, au' 'to come bringing something', but glou' to come bringing one's own'. It looks like Dhegiha goes one step further in adding a pleonastic a- to the front of this element glo(a)- < *k-ro-a-, as well as contracting the *k-ro-a- to *kra-. IO seems to go one step further than that, by adding a pleonastic suus *-ki- after *a-, to get egra- from *a-(k)i-k-ro-a-. Incidentally, IO also has "tun'" 'to have, possess', which looks like it would be thuN, corresponding to the OP taN 'to be provided with; to have' that I mentoned last time. This suggests ttaN rather than thaN, by the way, as I suspected. > And, as John said, 'to have X as a kinsman' uses the causative suffix on > the kinterm. This causative with kin develops into the productive kinship possession construction in Winnebago. > BTW, the new and improved version of that 1977 paper of mine on the > grammaticalization of positionals in Siouan is in the new issue of STUF > (Sprach Typologie und Universalien Forschungen). I hope there's not a sister journal called Unsinn! (Presumably the latter would deal with semantics!) [Sorry, it was a perfectly good pun and it was just lying there unclaimed.] From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Oct 18 05:05:45 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 23:05:45 -0600 Subject: Proposed Name Change for List In-Reply-To: <042e01c4b4c3$d8eed650$26b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: This summer I was thinking of renaming the list "Siouan and Naval Etymology List," (SNEL, or VITE, after calquing), but now I see that it should probably be "Siouan and Balkan Linguistics List," (SABLList, or SLABBist after metamorphosis, which is like metathesis, only worse), since so many on the list are interested in both areas, if I may be forgiven another slight, and entirely accidental pun. From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon Oct 18 14:41:09 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 08:41:09 -0600 Subject: 2005 Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference. In-Reply-To: <028a01c4b399$8d5cbd90$26b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: For me, the earlier in the summer season the better. Mid to late May would be ideal. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Sat, 16 Oct 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > I just returned from Kaw City, OK and the tribal chairman of the Kaw Nation has > approved our request to hold the 2005 SCLC meeting at the tribal complex in Kaw > City. Justin McBride, the Kaw language coordinator arranged this for us and we > owe him a vote of thanks. > > The next thing to do is to decide on precise dates so that I can publicize the > meeting with other linguistics organizations and publications. We normally meet > in very late May or sometime in June. Would it be possible for those of you who > will be attending to let me know as soon as possible if you have any weekends > during this period that you have definite conflicts? > > We had discussed the possibility of holding the meeting at the time of the Osage > dances so that interested persons could attend these in the evenings. Does > anyone recall what weekend(s) this was? Carolyn? > > That's the good news. The bad news is that while I was there the Kaw Nation > lost Elmer Clark, the son of Maude Rowe, who had recorded her language with me > back in the '70's. Elmer was just about the last person I know of who could > even recall a little of the Kaw language. > > Bob > From rankin at ku.edu Mon Oct 18 16:43:27 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:43:27 -0500 Subject: STUF correction Message-ID: I was trying to type from memory the reference to the paper "The History and Development of Siouan Positionals with special attention to polygrammaticalization in Dhegiha", and my lousy German got the publication title wrong in spite of the available acronym. STUF is "Sprachtypologie und Universalienforschung." I separated too many words and put the wrong ending on Forschung I think. Sorry 'bout that. The page ref. is Vol. 57, issue 2&3, pp. 202-227. More than you ever wanted to know (but short of a totally complete treatment, of course) about Siouan positionals. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Mon Oct 18 16:47:39 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:47:39 -0500 Subject: Mississippi Valley Ablaut. Message-ID: From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of "Alfred W. Tüting" > BTW, the different uses of ablaut/non-ablaut verb forms in e.g. Dakota still seems really puzzling to me. Alfred If you have the Siouan fonts from John Koontz's website, I have a historical treatment of the origins of Ablaut I can email. It isn't published but it ought to be readable. (N.B. those Siouan fonts don't work with the Mac.) Bob From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Oct 19 00:57:18 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 19:57:18 -0500 Subject: Siouan "have" verb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John wrote: > This verb thaN is sometimes translated 'be plentiful', but I think it is > possibly more like 'be provided with'. Dorsey writes it explicitly as > thaN, with an opening apostrophe, but I am not sure it isn't ttaN. I > don't really trust his explicit aspiration marking in OP, because of > several cases where it turned out not to be correct. We've recently asked our speakers about this, and I think we got a strong affirmation that the word is indeed ttaN, not tHaN. I've always wondered about that rare "opening apostrophe" in Dorsey. So it is supposed to indicate explicit aspiration? But don't we also encounter it after the 'd' in d(u'ba, 'some', as opposed to du'ba, 'four'? (My opening parenthesis being used for Dorsey's opening apostrophe here.) > didhadi dhathaN' ede=s^te > his-father you-had-him unexpected=soever > 'even if you had a father' > > Here I think the use of thaN might be dictated by the skepticism. I'm pretty sure I've seen ttaN used in Dorsey for a man "having" a son, in a situation that I don't think was in any way irrealis. > However, for kin, the causative is normal: > > ihaN'=adhe his-mother=I-made-her 'I had her for a mother' I wonder if ttaN and the causative don't reflect two different levels of "kinship-having", rather like the stereotypical "Anglo-Saxon" and "Norman French" levels in English. The word ttaN would be "Anglo-Saxon". It would be the original basic word for "having" a relative, where one is speaking of blood relationship and real nuclear family dependencies. The causative would be "Norman French". It would be used for relationships assumed for high-level social, economic and political purposes. These relationships would often be technically fictitious, but publically recognizing them would define mutual support obligations. They would also define whom one could or could not marry within the clan system. This usage should have evolved along with the clan and tribal system, and it would be used when one wanted to stress the standard social obligations of a relationship. "I had her for a mother", causative, would imply that she and I were in a recognized social relationship in which she acted as a mother to me. "Even if you had a father", dhattaN', would imply that you do not have a known sire who is still alive. > Also: > > z^u' dhathaN' 'you had a body' Yes. And nE'xetti-sihi'-ttaN, 'a skillet with legs'. "Having" a body, and "having" certain parts characteristically, seem to be in the realm of ttaN. > This verb thaN is sometimes translated 'be plentiful', but I think it is > possibly more like 'be provided with'. I agree, though there does seem to be some connotation of abundance, too. Perhaps 'be _comfortably_ provided with'? We've tried to nail down the difference between ttaN and adhiN' with our speakers, and I think there may be a range of overlap where either is acceptable. I suspect also that adhiN' is coming to replace ttaN. But what experience I have with these terms suggests the following distinction to me: ttaN - to have, in a characteristic or elemental way that is independent of societal allocation. adhiN' - to have, in an immediate way, or in a way that is dependent upon the agreement of others. So: maN'zeska ttaN - to have money characteristically, to be wealthy. maN'zeska adhiN' - to have money immediately, e.g. in one's pocket. But a name or title is socially dependent; hence: > Ttiu'dhiNba iz^a'z^e abdhiN 'My name is Lightening in the Lodge' > I think adhiN' is normally 'have' in the sense of having > something that can exist without being possessed. So it wouldn't be > normal with kin. > > But: > > PpaN'kka iNs^?a'ge wiN abdhI 'an old Ponca man I had' (Dorsey thinks > someone unrelated living with the family, somebody supported out of a > sense of responsibility - "I kept him" - but I wonder if the letter's > author means a father-in-law.) Perhaps, though it doesn't seem to be specified. In other postings, John and Bob have discussed the possibility that adhiN' is derived from a-dhiN, where dhiN is the verb 'to be (a member of a set)'. The suggestion is that this is something like 'it is to me' type constructions in some European languages. If that is the case, then we should realize that our 'have' word adhiN' is much "lighter" than the English word 'have'. It might indicate something more like accompaniment than possession or relationship. "I had an old Ponca man" might just mean "I had an old Ponca man (along with me)", rather than "I had an old Ponca man (as a slave or relative)". Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Oct 19 04:29:05 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 22:29:05 -0600 Subject: Siouan "have" verb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > We've recently asked our speakers about this, and I think we got a > strong affirmation that the word is indeed ttaN, not tHaN. Thanks! > I've always wondered about that rare "opening apostrophe" in Dorsey. > So it is supposed to indicate explicit aspiration? That's my understanding of it. Dorsey's use of apostrophes has to be watched closely. He uses closing apostrophe after stops for ejection, and opening apostrophes for aspiration, though as seen I'm not sure his judgements of aspiration for Omaha-Ponca are reliable. He also uses opening apostrophe after fricatives for glottalization, and between vowels or initially for glottal stop, so context determines what opening apostrophe means. I've seen opening apostrophe used initially for three different cases: a) Words like (?)aN that fall into the Proto-Siouan glottal stop stem category, though the only form in which glottalization could appear would be initially in te third peson. I don't hear these forms as any more glottalized than any other vowel initial, but I'm not sure I ever really examined them carefully enough. b) Words like ?i 'give' which have glottal stop from *k? and *x?. Again I hear nothing special initially - i.e., maybe there is a glottal stop - but there is definitely a glottal stop when a V final pronominal follows. c) Words like (?)idhe 'to speak of' in which I again detect nothing special, and have no reasons historical or contemporary to suspect a glottal stop. > But don't we also encounter it after the 'd' in d(u'ba, 'some', as > opposed to du'ba, 'four'? (My opening parenthesis being used for > Dorsey's opening apostrophe here.) And then there's "d(uba" which I think represents j^uba. But why Dorsey writes d(uba and not djuba I am at loss to say. At least he never writes djuba, as far as I can tell, and j^uba definitely occurs. Maybe he was early on impressed by a slow and careful du'ba with the expected glottalized vowel of CV'CV forms? > > didhadi dhathaN' ede=s^te > > his-father you-had-him unexpected=soever > > 'even if you had a father' > > > > Here I think the use of thaN might be dictated by the skepticism. > I'm pretty sure I've seen ttaN used in Dorsey for a man "having" a son, > in a situation that I don't think was in any way irrealis. I hadn't really thought of it in terms of irrealis. It's more in the way of belittlment, though I guess irrealis is fair. Still, it sounds like I had better go back and see what the options are for kin terms and/or ttaN! > I wonder if ttaN and the causative don't reflect two different levels of > "kinship-having", rather like the stereotypical "Anglo-Saxon" and > "Norman French" levels in English. > > > However, for kin, the causative is normal: > > > > ihaN'=adhe his-mother=I-made-her 'I had her for a mother' > > The word ttaN would be "Anglo-Saxon". It would be the original basic > word for "having" a relative, where one is speaking of blood > relationship and real nuclear family dependencies. > > The causative would be "Norman French". It would be used for > relationships assumed for high-level social, economic and political > purposes. ... There might well be some sort of connotative distinciton. I don't know how widely the *htuN verb is attested with kin. I think it's widespread in the sense of 'for a resource to occur', i.e., as 'be plentiful', which would be consistent with 'be provided with'. The causative construction is pan-Mississippi Valley. I'm not sure about Ioway-Otoe, but it's found in Dakotan, Dhegiha, and Winnebago. This wouldn't prevent it from being an upper register form in OP or Dhegiha, of course. > > Also: > > > > z^u' dhathaN' 'you had a body' > > Yes. And nE'xetti-sihi'-ttaN, 'a skillet with legs'. > > "Having" a body, and "having" certain parts characteristically, > seem to be in the realm of ttaN. > > > This verb thaN is sometimes translated 'be plentiful', but I think it is > > possibly more like 'be provided with'. > > I agree, though there does seem to be some connotation of > abundance, too. Perhaps 'be _comfortably_ provided with'? That more or less fits the context with 'father' and 'son', too. It might not work with 'spouse' or some other relationships. I won't include the rest of Rory's comments here, but it's clear that the folks involved in the classes at UNL have been doing some interesting and useful things with 'have' as well as everything else! From Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp Tue Oct 19 05:06:29 2004 From: Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp (Mike Morgan) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:06:29 +0900 Subject: Balkan tongues Message-ID: > Don't think the Russ ones are postposed, but it would take a much better > Slavicist than me to know. Can't claim to be that... my training in Slavic Linguistics is long behind me, and only from time to time does it surface (usually unexpectedly). As for whether N Russian articles are post-posed or not, I COULD be wrong - it DOES happen, particularly when relying on memory of E Slavic dialectology classes some 30 years ago! I tried to track down a source - in my library, on the net, etc - but couldn't. So take it with a grain (or more, if your not on a low-salt diet) of salt. Anyway, I agree with Bob that we should probably move on from the "Balkan tongues" thread, and to help that transition, I have a perhaps naive Native American Sprachbund question. Put simply, what work has been done trying to argue for Sprachbund effects for Siouan languages (as a group and/or individually). Presumably the languages that would go into such a grouping are out East somewhere. And since East is a relative term, I DON'T mean out East like where I live, but the original homeland of the Siouans, or some intermediate homeland for individual languages of subgroups, assuming they stayed there long enough for the effects to take hold. Again presumably - and supported by what LITTLE I know of the structure of languages that they have been in contact with in recent history - the Lakota (and Nakota) Sioux have not been where they currently dwell long enough for any such effects (or am I wrong ... again?). I don't claim to be a Siouanist, and so may well be lacking in even basic knowledge (though I have been lurking the list for maybe 3 years or a bit more, since work I was doing on Japanese Sign Language typology lead me back to Klimov and the theory of active-stative languages and that lead to studying Lakota and Guarani ... and so it goes). If it doesn't merit an on-line discussion, I personally would appreciate someone directing me to where to start looking (a short biblio, internet links, past Siouan ML postings, etc). Thanks! Mike Morgan Kobe City University of Foreign Studies Kobe, Japan Sign Linguist Sign Theoretic (aka Jakobsonian) Linguist One-time Slavicist (and borderline Balkanist) Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Oct 19 16:04:23 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:04:23 -0600 Subject: Siouan and Sprachbunds (Re: Balkan tongues) In-Reply-To: <00d301c4b599$64d263f0$0274a8c0@FM116206905> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Oct 2004, Mike Morgan wrote: > I have a perhaps naive Native American Sprachbund question. Put simply, > what work has been done trying to argue for Sprachbund effects for > Siouan languages (as a group and/or individually). Well, Mary Haas, Dale Nicklas, and Robert Rankin have all argued in various places, mostly unpublished in the latter two cases, I think, that Biloxi - inserted in the middle of Muskogean territory - has a considerable degree of assimilation to Muskogean. Noticeable loans, some tendency to CV- ~ VC- forms for pronominals, switch reference (with similar morphemes marking it - not sure if I remember that right?), and so on. I would argue, though I've never developed the arguments formally, that the many similarities of Crow-Hidatsa and Mandan are in many cases secondary and seem to reflect strong influence by Crow-Hidatsa on Mandan, which was originally more like typical Mississippi Valley languages. Bob Rankin has a paper - not published I think - that develops a case for a variety of Central Algonquian influences in Dhegiha. He and others have also pointed out a regional tendency to use of positionals in the southeast that extends into Dhegiha. Of course, all Siouan languages make more or less strong use of positionals, though Dhegiha and Biloxi are certainly among the champions. However, Winnebago and Mandan also scatter them about fairly freely. The main prehistoric "entity" that might have served to integrate a Sprachbund include Siouan and other languages would seem to be "Mississippian" culture or perhaps more narrowly, Cahokian culture. Unfortunately this waned before the earliest visits, apart from Spanish raiding across the Southeast in Catawban and Muskogean territory, which was well organized militarily, but singularly unobservant. De Soto and company make Lewis & Clark look the California Linguistic Survey. The details in the memoirs mostly have to do with lengths of marches, foraging, armaments, numbers living and killed, and absence of gold. Sometimes they remembered the placenames, mostly with most of the syllables present and in the right order, surprisingly often even recognizable, considering the length of the chain of kidnapped translators. > Presumably the languages that would go into such a grouping are out East > somewhere. And since East is a relative term, I DON'T mean out East like > where I live, but the original homeland of the Siouans, or some > intermediate homeland for individual languages of subgroups, assuming > they stayed there long enough for the effects to take hold. Again > presumably - and supported by what LITTLE I know of the structure of > languages that they have been in contact with in recent history - the > Lakota (and Nakota) Sioux have not been where they currently dwell long > enough for any such effects (or am I wrong ... again?). The most easterly and southerly Siouan languages seem to be fairly recent arrivals where they are, though the jury is still out on "Tutelo - when and whence?" The characterization of Siouan as "Eastern" derives from (a) its known connection with Catawban, (b) its less secure connection with Iroquoian and Caddoan and Yuchi, and (c) an early and incorrect perception that the Plains were uninabited/uninhabitable before the horse. The center of gravity of the Siouan family seems to be something like Missouri or Iowa. If Biloxi is recent on Biloxi Bay, either it assimilated to Muskogean at break-neck speed, or it started out somewhere where Muskogean languages were also to be found, e.g., perhaps along the southern edge of the Ohio Valley? Archaeologists generally assign the Dakota-Lakota with various "manifestations" in Minnesota and the eastern Dakotas, now grouped under the name Psinomani i.e. psiN omani 'rice gathering', though the more westerly sites involve earth lodge villages and maize growing. They are still assembling this from bits and pieces they hadn't previously associated and I'm not really current on progress. One of the characteristic "wares" is called Sandy Lake, which is a sort of minimalist approach to Oneota pottery. I'm not sure if Psinomani is deduced from the linguistics, which would be somewhat risky, or if it is something more. The Northern Plains seem somewhat negelected generally, and the easterly Dakota area (ranging into the Great Lakes woodlands) is on the edge of several well-studied areas, resulting in a tendency not to see connections. (American archaeology seems to follow the Balkan political model.) I personally wonder if Psinomani isn't really a case of Siouan languages (Proto-Dakota) spreading to a bunch of somewhat disparate adjacent groups. Anyway, the consensus is that the Dakota have been in the more easterly part of the Dakota-speaking area for a fairly long time, a least 1000 years. Most of the uncertainty as to original location and subsequent movement surrounds Dhegiha. From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 19 20:12:05 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:12:05 -0700 Subject: Siouan and Sprachbunds (Re: Balkan tongues) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -- Biloxi - inserted in the middle of Muskogean territory - has a considerable degree of assimilation to Muskogean. -- So, does this mean I should be looking at the Muskogean family too in order to better understand Biloxi? (Which I intend to do when I get my dictionary and subsequent materials.) -- The characterization of Siouan as "Eastern" derives from (a) its known connection with Catawban, (b) its less secure connection with Iroquoian and Caddoan and Yuchi -- So there is possibly a connection between Iroquoian and Siouan? What evidence would there be of this? (I'm also interested in Cherokee, as I mentioned before.) Thanks. Dave Koontz John E wrote: On Tue, 19 Oct 2004, Mike Morgan wrote: > I have a perhaps naive Native American Sprachbund question. Put simply, > what work has been done trying to argue for Sprachbund effects for > Siouan languages (as a group and/or individually). Well, Mary Haas, Dale Nicklas, and Robert Rankin have all argued in various places, mostly unpublished in the latter two cases, I think, that Biloxi - inserted in the middle of Muskogean territory - has a considerable degree of assimilation to Muskogean. Noticeable loans, some tendency to CV- ~ VC- forms for pronominals, switch reference (with similar morphemes marking it - not sure if I remember that right?), and so on. I would argue, though I've never developed the arguments formally, that the many similarities of Crow-Hidatsa and Mandan are in many cases secondary and seem to reflect strong influence by Crow-Hidatsa on Mandan, which was originally more like typical Mississippi Valley languages. Bob Rankin has a paper - not published I think - that develops a case for a variety of Central Algonquian influences in Dhegiha. He and others have also pointed out a regional tendency to use of positionals in the southeast that extends into Dhegiha. Of course, all Siouan languages make more or less strong use of positionals, though Dhegiha and Biloxi are certainly among the champions. However, Winnebago and Mandan also scatter them about fairly freely. The main prehistoric "entity" that might have served to integrate a Sprachbund include Siouan and other languages would seem to be "Mississippian" culture or perhaps more narrowly, Cahokian culture. Unfortunately this waned before the earliest visits, apart from Spanish raiding across the Southeast in Catawban and Muskogean territory, which was well organized militarily, but singularly unobservant. De Soto and company make Lewis & Clark look the California Linguistic Survey. The details in the memoirs mostly have to do with lengths of marches, foraging, armaments, numbers living and killed, and absence of gold. Sometimes they remembered the placenames, mostly with most of the syllables present and in the right order, surprisingly often even recognizable, considering the length of the chain of kidnapped translators. > Presumably the languages that would go into such a grouping are out East > somewhere. And since East is a relative term, I DON'T mean out East like > where I live, but the original homeland of the Siouans, or some > intermediate homeland for individual languages of subgroups, assuming > they stayed there long enough for the effects to take hold. Again > presumably - and supported by what LITTLE I know of the structure of > languages that they have been in contact with in recent history - the > Lakota (and Nakota) Sioux have not been where they currently dwell long > enough for any such effects (or am I wrong ... again?). The most easterly and southerly Siouan languages seem to be fairly recent arrivals where they are, though the jury is still out on "Tutelo - when and whence?" The characterization of Siouan as "Eastern" derives from (a) its known connection with Catawban, (b) its less secure connection with Iroquoian and Caddoan and Yuchi, and (c) an early and incorrect perception that the Plains were uninabited/uninhabitable before the horse. The center of gravity of the Siouan family seems to be something like Missouri or Iowa. If Biloxi is recent on Biloxi Bay, either it assimilated to Muskogean at break-neck speed, or it started out somewhere where Muskogean languages were also to be found, e.g., perhaps along the southern edge of the Ohio Valley? Archaeologists generally assign the Dakota-Lakota with various "manifestations" in Minnesota and the eastern Dakotas, now grouped under the name Psinomani i.e. psiN omani 'rice gathering', though the more westerly sites involve earth lodge villages and maize growing. They are still assembling this from bits and pieces they hadn't previously associated and I'm not really current on progress. One of the characteristic "wares" is called Sandy Lake, which is a sort of minimalist approach to Oneota pottery. I'm not sure if Psinomani is deduced from the linguistics, which would be somewhat risky, or if it is something more. The Northern Plains seem somewhat negelected generally, and the easterly Dakota area (ranging into the Great Lakes woodlands) is on the edge of several well-studied areas, resulting in a tendency not to see connections. (American archaeology seems to follow the Balkan political model.) I personally wonder if Psinomani isn't really a case of Siouan languages (Proto-Dakota) spreading to a bunch of somewhat disparate adjacent groups. Anyway, the consensus is that the Dakota have been in the more easterly part of the Dakota-speaking area for a fairly long time, a least 1000 years. Most of the uncertainty as to original location and subsequent movement surrounds Dhegiha. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Tue Oct 19 20:58:12 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:58:12 -0600 Subject: Iroquoian and Siouan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry about the spelling in the header of my other message -- too much haste. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From rood at spot.colorado.edu Tue Oct 19 20:55:08 2004 From: rood at spot.colorado.edu (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:55:08 -0600 Subject: Iroqoian and Siouan In-Reply-To: <20041019201205.65406.qmail@web53803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There is an article by Wally Chafe in the 1964 American Anthropologist (vol 66 no. 4 pt. 1, pp. 852-862) entitled "Another Look at Siouan and Iroquoian" that is just about the whole body of evidence for that suggested connection. Judging from conversations over the years, I have the impression that Wally and Marianne are pretty convinced of a Caddoan/Iroquoian connection, but I'm not sure where they stand on Siouan right now. It's also worth looking at Lyle Campbell's chapter on Macro Siouan in his "American Indian Languages: The Historical Linguistics of Native America", pp. 262-269. He provides a thorough and critical review of all the long-distance proposals for Siouan. Not surprisingly, he doesn't think we can consider them related with our present state of knowledge. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Tue, 19 Oct 2004, David Kaufman wrote: > -- Biloxi - inserted in the middle of Muskogean territory - has a considerable degree of assimilation to Muskogean. -- So, does this mean I should be looking at the Muskogean family too in order to better understand Biloxi? (Which I intend to do when I get my dictionary and subsequent materials.) > > -- The characterization of Siouan as "Eastern" derives from (a) its known connection with Catawban, (b) its less secure connection with Iroquoian and Caddoan and Yuchi -- So there is possibly a connection between Iroquoian and Siouan? What evidence would there be of this? (I'm also interested in Cherokee, as I mentioned before.) > > Thanks. > > Dave > > Koontz John E wrote: > On Tue, 19 Oct 2004, Mike Morgan wrote: > > I have a perhaps naive Native American Sprachbund question. Put simply, > > what work has been done trying to argue for Sprachbund effects for > > Siouan languages (as a group and/or individually). > > Well, Mary Haas, Dale Nicklas, and Robert Rankin have all argued in > various places, mostly unpublished in the latter two cases, I think, that > Biloxi - inserted in the middle of Muskogean territory - has a > considerable degree of assimilation to Muskogean. Noticeable loans, some > tendency to CV- ~ VC- forms for pronominals, switch reference (with > similar morphemes marking it - not sure if I remember that right?), and so > on. > > I would argue, though I've never developed the arguments formally, that > the many similarities of Crow-Hidatsa and Mandan are in many cases > secondary and seem to reflect strong influence by Crow-Hidatsa on Mandan, > which was originally more like typical Mississippi Valley languages. > > Bob Rankin has a paper - not published I think - that develops a case for > a variety of Central Algonquian influences in Dhegiha. He and others have > also pointed out a regional tendency to use of positionals in the > southeast that extends into Dhegiha. Of course, all Siouan languages make > more or less strong use of positionals, though Dhegiha and Biloxi are > certainly among the champions. However, Winnebago and Mandan also scatter > them about fairly freely. > > The main prehistoric "entity" that might have served to integrate a > Sprachbund include Siouan and other languages would seem to be > "Mississippian" culture or perhaps more narrowly, Cahokian culture. > Unfortunately this waned before the earliest visits, apart from Spanish > raiding across the Southeast in Catawban and Muskogean territory, which > was well organized militarily, but singularly unobservant. De Soto and > company make Lewis & Clark look the California Linguistic Survey. The > details in the memoirs mostly have to do with lengths of marches, > foraging, armaments, numbers living and killed, and absence of gold. > Sometimes they remembered the placenames, mostly with most of the > syllables present and in the right order, surprisingly often even > recognizable, considering the length of the chain of kidnapped > translators. > > > Presumably the languages that would go into such a grouping are out East > > somewhere. And since East is a relative term, I DON'T mean out East like > > where I live, but the original homeland of the Siouans, or some > > intermediate homeland for individual languages of subgroups, assuming > > they stayed there long enough for the effects to take hold. Again > > presumably - and supported by what LITTLE I know of the structure of > > languages that they have been in contact with in recent history - the > > Lakota (and Nakota) Sioux have not been where they currently dwell long > > enough for any such effects (or am I wrong ... again?). > > The most easterly and southerly Siouan languages seem to be fairly recent > arrivals where they are, though the jury is still out on "Tutelo - when > and whence?" The characterization of Siouan as "Eastern" derives from (a) > its known connection with Catawban, (b) its less secure connection with > Iroquoian and Caddoan and Yuchi, and (c) an early and incorrect perception > that the Plains were uninabited/uninhabitable before the horse. The > center of gravity of the Siouan family seems to be something like Missouri > or Iowa. > > If Biloxi is recent on Biloxi Bay, either it assimilated to Muskogean at > break-neck speed, or it started out somewhere where Muskogean languages > were also to be found, e.g., perhaps along the southern edge of the Ohio > Valley? > > Archaeologists generally assign the Dakota-Lakota with various > "manifestations" in Minnesota and the eastern Dakotas, now grouped under > the name Psinomani i.e. psiN omani 'rice gathering', though the more > westerly sites involve earth lodge villages and maize growing. They are > still assembling this from bits and pieces they hadn't previously > associated and I'm not really current on progress. One of the > characteristic "wares" is called Sandy Lake, which is a sort of minimalist > approach to Oneota pottery. > > I'm not sure if Psinomani is deduced from the linguistics, which would be > somewhat risky, or if it is something more. The Northern Plains seem > somewhat negelected generally, and the easterly Dakota area (ranging into > the Great Lakes woodlands) is on the edge of several well-studied areas, > resulting in a tendency not to see connections. (American archaeology > seems to follow the Balkan political model.) I personally wonder if > Psinomani isn't really a case of Siouan languages (Proto-Dakota) spreading > to a bunch of somewhat disparate adjacent groups. Anyway, the consensus is > that the Dakota have been in the more easterly part of the Dakota-speaking > area for a fairly long time, a least 1000 years. > > Most of the uncertainty as to original location and subsequent movement > surrounds Dhegiha. > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! From rankin at ku.edu Tue Oct 19 21:39:30 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:39:30 -0500 Subject: Siouan and Sprachbunds (Re: Balkan tongues) Message-ID: Probably my fullest published discussion of some of these things is in the Mary Hass "Festkonferenz" volume. There should be a ref. on John Boyle's "Siouan Bibliography" site. I've always thought that the extensive changes that Cheyenne and Arapaho underwent along with the changes that Hidatsa and more especially Crow underwent might have been part of what is called "Middle Missouri" in archaeology. (Is that the right term?). This includes the sound change s --> t /__a in both Algonquian and Crow. These things are hard to prove though. John Koontz's research tends to support strong Algonquian contact toward the north -- in the Illinois country and points north. He found loans for 'squash', 'bow' and maybe others. I discussed common consonant cluster treatment (filter, constraint) in an unpublished paper. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: "Siouan List" Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 11:04 AM Subject: Siouan and Sprachbunds (Re: Balkan tongues) > On Tue, 19 Oct 2004, Mike Morgan wrote: > > I have a perhaps naive Native American Sprachbund question. Put simply, > > what work has been done trying to argue for Sprachbund effects for > > Siouan languages (as a group and/or individually). > > Well, Mary Haas, Dale Nicklas, and Robert Rankin have all argued in > various places, mostly unpublished in the latter two cases, I think, that > Biloxi - inserted in the middle of Muskogean territory - has a > considerable degree of assimilation to Muskogean. Noticeable loans, some > tendency to CV- ~ VC- forms for pronominals, switch reference (with > similar morphemes marking it - not sure if I remember that right?), and so > on. > > I would argue, though I've never developed the arguments formally, that > the many similarities of Crow-Hidatsa and Mandan are in many cases > secondary and seem to reflect strong influence by Crow-Hidatsa on Mandan, > which was originally more like typical Mississippi Valley languages. > > Bob Rankin has a paper - not published I think - that develops a case for > a variety of Central Algonquian influences in Dhegiha. He and others have > also pointed out a regional tendency to use of positionals in the > southeast that extends into Dhegiha. Of course, all Siouan languages make > more or less strong use of positionals, though Dhegiha and Biloxi are > certainly among the champions. However, Winnebago and Mandan also scatter > them about fairly freely. > > The main prehistoric "entity" that might have served to integrate a > Sprachbund include Siouan and other languages would seem to be > "Mississippian" culture or perhaps more narrowly, Cahokian culture. > Unfortunately this waned before the earliest visits, apart from Spanish > raiding across the Southeast in Catawban and Muskogean territory, which > was well organized militarily, but singularly unobservant. De Soto and > company make Lewis & Clark look the California Linguistic Survey. The > details in the memoirs mostly have to do with lengths of marches, > foraging, armaments, numbers living and killed, and absence of gold. > Sometimes they remembered the placenames, mostly with most of the > syllables present and in the right order, surprisingly often even > recognizable, considering the length of the chain of kidnapped > translators. > > > Presumably the languages that would go into such a grouping are out East > > somewhere. And since East is a relative term, I DON'T mean out East like > > where I live, but the original homeland of the Siouans, or some > > intermediate homeland for individual languages of subgroups, assuming > > they stayed there long enough for the effects to take hold. Again > > presumably - and supported by what LITTLE I know of the structure of > > languages that they have been in contact with in recent history - the > > Lakota (and Nakota) Sioux have not been where they currently dwell long > > enough for any such effects (or am I wrong ... again?). > > The most easterly and southerly Siouan languages seem to be fairly recent > arrivals where they are, though the jury is still out on "Tutelo - when > and whence?" The characterization of Siouan as "Eastern" derives from (a) > its known connection with Catawban, (b) its less secure connection with > Iroquoian and Caddoan and Yuchi, and (c) an early and incorrect perception > that the Plains were uninabited/uninhabitable before the horse. The > center of gravity of the Siouan family seems to be something like Missouri > or Iowa. > > If Biloxi is recent on Biloxi Bay, either it assimilated to Muskogean at > break-neck speed, or it started out somewhere where Muskogean languages > were also to be found, e.g., perhaps along the southern edge of the Ohio > Valley? > > Archaeologists generally assign the Dakota-Lakota with various > "manifestations" in Minnesota and the eastern Dakotas, now grouped under > the name Psinomani i.e. psiN omani 'rice gathering', though the more > westerly sites involve earth lodge villages and maize growing. They are > still assembling this from bits and pieces they hadn't previously > associated and I'm not really current on progress. One of the > characteristic "wares" is called Sandy Lake, which is a sort of minimalist > approach to Oneota pottery. > > I'm not sure if Psinomani is deduced from the linguistics, which would be > somewhat risky, or if it is something more. The Northern Plains seem > somewhat negelected generally, and the easterly Dakota area (ranging into > the Great Lakes woodlands) is on the edge of several well-studied areas, > resulting in a tendency not to see connections. (American archaeology > seems to follow the Balkan political model.) I personally wonder if > Psinomani isn't really a case of Siouan languages (Proto-Dakota) spreading > to a bunch of somewhat disparate adjacent groups. Anyway, the consensus is > that the Dakota have been in the more easterly part of the Dakota-speaking > area for a fairly long time, a least 1000 years. > > Most of the uncertainty as to original location and subsequent movement > surrounds Dhegiha. > From mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu Tue Oct 19 22:37:45 2004 From: mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Marianne Mithun) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:37:45 -0700 Subject: Iroqoian and Siouan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, that pretty much sums up my position. I think that a link between Iroquoian and Caddoan is quite promising but by no means established. A link between those two and Siouan is very tantalizing, but even further from being established. On the principle that we don't want to declare relationships until we have enough evidence to be certain, because there can never be a definitive kind of evidence that disproves a relationship, I'd agree that on the basis of our present state of knowledge, we can't consider any of them established relatives. It could be, however, that even on the basis of the data that now exist, a relationship might be shown. Marianne --On Tuesday, October 19, 2004 2:55 PM -0600 ROOD DAVID S wrote: > > There is an article by Wally Chafe in the 1964 American Anthropologist > (vol 66 no. 4 pt. 1, pp. 852-862) entitled "Another Look at Siouan and > Iroquoian" that is just about the whole body of evidence for that > suggested connection. Judging from conversations over the years, I have > the impression that Wally and Marianne are pretty convinced of a > Caddoan/Iroquoian connection, but I'm not sure where they stand on Siouan > right now. It's also worth looking at Lyle Campbell's chapter on Macro > Siouan in his "American Indian Languages: The Historical Linguistics of > Native America", pp. 262-269. He provides a thorough and critical review > of all the long-distance proposals for Siouan. Not surprisingly, he > doesn't think we can consider them related with our present state of > knowledge. > > David > > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Tue, 19 Oct 2004, David Kaufman wrote: > >> -- Biloxi - inserted in the middle of Muskogean territory - has a >> considerable degree of assimilation to Muskogean. -- So, does this mean >> I should be looking at the Muskogean family too in order to better >> understand Biloxi? (Which I intend to do when I get my dictionary and >> subsequent materials.) >> >> -- The characterization of Siouan as "Eastern" derives from (a) its >> known connection with Catawban, (b) its less secure connection with >> Iroquoian and Caddoan and Yuchi -- So there is possibly a connection >> between Iroquoian and Siouan? What evidence would there be of this? >> (I'm also interested in Cherokee, as I mentioned before.) >> >> Thanks. >> >> Dave >> >> Koontz John E wrote: >> On Tue, 19 Oct 2004, Mike Morgan wrote: >> > I have a perhaps naive Native American Sprachbund question. Put simply, >> > what work has been done trying to argue for Sprachbund effects for >> > Siouan languages (as a group and/or individually). >> >> Well, Mary Haas, Dale Nicklas, and Robert Rankin have all argued in >> various places, mostly unpublished in the latter two cases, I think, that >> Biloxi - inserted in the middle of Muskogean territory - has a >> considerable degree of assimilation to Muskogean. Noticeable loans, some >> tendency to CV- ~ VC- forms for pronominals, switch reference (with >> similar morphemes marking it - not sure if I remember that right?), and >> so on. >> >> I would argue, though I've never developed the arguments formally, that >> the many similarities of Crow-Hidatsa and Mandan are in many cases >> secondary and seem to reflect strong influence by Crow-Hidatsa on Mandan, >> which was originally more like typical Mississippi Valley languages. >> >> Bob Rankin has a paper - not published I think - that develops a case for >> a variety of Central Algonquian influences in Dhegiha. He and others have >> also pointed out a regional tendency to use of positionals in the >> southeast that extends into Dhegiha. Of course, all Siouan languages make >> more or less strong use of positionals, though Dhegiha and Biloxi are >> certainly among the champions. However, Winnebago and Mandan also scatter >> them about fairly freely. >> >> The main prehistoric "entity" that might have served to integrate a >> Sprachbund include Siouan and other languages would seem to be >> "Mississippian" culture or perhaps more narrowly, Cahokian culture. >> Unfortunately this waned before the earliest visits, apart from Spanish >> raiding across the Southeast in Catawban and Muskogean territory, which >> was well organized militarily, but singularly unobservant. De Soto and >> company make Lewis & Clark look the California Linguistic Survey. The >> details in the memoirs mostly have to do with lengths of marches, >> foraging, armaments, numbers living and killed, and absence of gold. >> Sometimes they remembered the placenames, mostly with most of the >> syllables present and in the right order, surprisingly often even >> recognizable, considering the length of the chain of kidnapped >> translators. >> >> > Presumably the languages that would go into such a grouping are out >> > East somewhere. And since East is a relative term, I DON'T mean out >> > East like where I live, but the original homeland of the Siouans, or >> > some intermediate homeland for individual languages of subgroups, >> > assuming they stayed there long enough for the effects to take hold. >> > Again presumably - and supported by what LITTLE I know of the >> > structure of languages that they have been in contact with in recent >> > history - the Lakota (and Nakota) Sioux have not been where they >> > currently dwell long enough for any such effects (or am I wrong ... >> > again?). >> >> The most easterly and southerly Siouan languages seem to be fairly recent >> arrivals where they are, though the jury is still out on "Tutelo - when >> and whence?" The characterization of Siouan as "Eastern" derives from (a) >> its known connection with Catawban, (b) its less secure connection with >> Iroquoian and Caddoan and Yuchi, and (c) an early and incorrect >> perception that the Plains were uninabited/uninhabitable before the >> horse. The center of gravity of the Siouan family seems to be something >> like Missouri or Iowa. >> >> If Biloxi is recent on Biloxi Bay, either it assimilated to Muskogean at >> break-neck speed, or it started out somewhere where Muskogean languages >> were also to be found, e.g., perhaps along the southern edge of the Ohio >> Valley? >> >> Archaeologists generally assign the Dakota-Lakota with various >> "manifestations" in Minnesota and the eastern Dakotas, now grouped under >> the name Psinomani i.e. psiN omani 'rice gathering', though the more >> westerly sites involve earth lodge villages and maize growing. They are >> still assembling this from bits and pieces they hadn't previously >> associated and I'm not really current on progress. One of the >> characteristic "wares" is called Sandy Lake, which is a sort of >> minimalist approach to Oneota pottery. >> >> I'm not sure if Psinomani is deduced from the linguistics, which would be >> somewhat risky, or if it is something more. The Northern Plains seem >> somewhat negelected generally, and the easterly Dakota area (ranging into >> the Great Lakes woodlands) is on the edge of several well-studied areas, >> resulting in a tendency not to see connections. (American archaeology >> seems to follow the Balkan political model.) I personally wonder if >> Psinomani isn't really a case of Siouan languages (Proto-Dakota) >> spreading to a bunch of somewhat disparate adjacent groups. Anyway, the >> consensus is that the Dakota have been in the more easterly part of the >> Dakota-speaking area for a fairly long time, a least 1000 years. >> >> Most of the uncertainty as to original location and subsequent movement >> surrounds Dhegiha. >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 19 22:40:41 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:40:41 -0700 Subject: Language documentation funding Message-ID: Hi, I had another question which I wanted to ask before but forgot, not related to any particular language but on the subject of language documentation and research in general: Is it possible to get individual or private funding in some amount when you're not currently academically connected to any university or organization (and, I might add, when one is not independently wealthy)? I'm wondering because I've realized over the last week in ordering material (e.g. the Biloxi dictionary) that it can get expensive if you want to get all the info and material that's out there, but is not free. (Dissertation copies alone are $35 a pop through U M I.) I'm not sure if you HAVE to be part of a university or organization to receive such funding, or if it's possible to do it on one's own. I'm sure there would have to be someone or some group who would have to verify work done or progress made somehow. Anyone have ideas about this? Is it possible, or is this just wishful thinking on my part until if and when I could get accepted into a PhD program or some other organization which could receive such grants on my behalf? (I imagine this, if possible at all, may also be more difficult when working on an "extinct" language such as Biloxi, with only texts, and not actual fieldwork with native speaker informants.) Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU Tue Oct 19 23:18:35 2004 From: John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:18:35 -0600 Subject: Siouan and Sprachbunds In-Reply-To: <20041019201205.65406.qmail@web53803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Oct 2004, David Kaufman wrote: > JEK: Biloxi - inserted in the middle of Muskogean territory - has a > considerable degree of assimilation to Muskogean. > DK: So, does this mean I should be looking at the Muskogean family too > in order to better understand Biloxi? Yes. Or so it seems to me. You can never go wrong knowing about neighboring languages, anyway. If you don't you won't notice any mutual influences. The results may be not unlike my field methods classnotes on Berber, compiled in complete ignorance of Arabic. However, Americanists do have a tendency to concentrate on one family, and I don't think concentrating on one family to the exclusion of others would be a career damaging move. (This is a serious statement, but somewhat tongue in cheek.) Americanists aren't actually ingorant of other families, but they are often specialized in a rather chance collocation of them, and they do tend to specialize. Different groups of people show up at the different family conferences. Apart from the Biloxi connection, it ought to be fairly useful for a Siouanist to know something about Muskogean. Muskogean and Siouan have some general similarities. Going from one Siouan language to another you have the impression somebody's been copying someone else's homework. On the other hand, going from Siouan to Muskogean you think maybe somebody heard the solution from an upper classman but didn't see a copy of it, and had to reverse engineer it. (Going from MVS to CH you have the impression that somebody copied the solution while watching television and playing computer games. Gee, this is fun! None of this analogizing is to be taken seriously!) From John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU Tue Oct 19 23:33:52 2004 From: John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:33:52 -0600 Subject: Siouan and Sprachbunds In-Reply-To: <018c01c4b624$1e9314d0$06b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Oct 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > I've always thought that the extensive changes that Cheyenne and Arapaho > underwent along with the changes that Hidatsa and more especially Crow > underwent might have been part of what is called "Middle Missouri" in > archaeology. (Is that the right term?). This includes the sound change > s --> t /__a in both Algonquian and Crow. These things are hard to > prove though. I almost mentioned the "simple" phonologies of various Plains languages as suspicious, but I didn't think to wonder if it might be connected with Middle Missouri. I'd wonder about Northern Caddoan in connection with this, too, though Coalescent - uniting Middle Missouri and Central Plains is later (c. 1400 AD?). The MM idea, at least, sounds plausible to me, though it might be rather hard to establish, just as Siouan-Muskogean influence would be hard to link to Cahokian Mississippian. At least in the Middle Missouri case the attachments of the languages to particular Middle Missouri manifestations seem well agreed upon (modulo Arapaho and, oddly enough, Crow), and you could think about drawing isoglosses. > John Koontz's research tends to support strong Algonquian contact toward > the north -- in the Illinois country and points north. He found loans > for 'squash', 'bow' and maybe others. I discussed common consonant > cluster treatment (filter, constraint) in an unpublished paper. It's a very small set, I'm afraid, and somewhat controversial. I'd add that I think Bob has noticed a number of Muskogean loans in Siouan, e.g., 'haw' and 'skull'. Some sets of "wandering words" seem to connect all three families. We've discussed most of these in the past two years. Probably a bit more often than the silent majority is happy with, so I'll leave this to list searching. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Wed Oct 20 06:59:31 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 08:59:31 +0200 Subject: Mississippi Valley Ablaut Message-ID: > (Bob) If you have the Siouan fonts from John Koontz's website, I have a historical treatment of the origins of Ablaut I can email. It isn't published but it ought to be readable. (N.B. those Siouan fonts don't work with the Mac.) << Thanks! Although my platform being Mac (OS X 10.3.5) I think that the font should work. Would you plz tell me exactly which one to download. Let's give it a try. :) Alfred BTW, can it be that some of my postings got 'filtered out' so I received no copies back here? Since somehow no longer having access to the list archive, I'm unable to check this. From rankin at ku.edu Wed Oct 20 13:42:56 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 08:42:56 -0500 Subject: Mississippi Valley Ablaut Message-ID: John Boyle asked for a PDF file, so I'll try to make one of those. It should work with the Mac. I can't remember if I used fonts in addition to Siouan SSDoulos or not. And I don't know if you will need them for a .PDF file or not. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alfred W. Tüting" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 1:59 AM Subject: Mississippi Valley Ablaut > > (Bob) If you have the Siouan fonts from John Koontz's website, I have > a historical treatment of the origins of Ablaut I can email. It isn't > published but it ought to be readable. (N.B. those Siouan fonts don't > work with the Mac.) << > > > Thanks! Although my platform being Mac (OS X 10.3.5) I think that the > font should work. Would you plz tell me exactly which one to download. > Let's give it a try. :) > > Alfred > > BTW, can it be that some of my postings got 'filtered out' so I received > no copies back here? Since somehow no longer having access to the list > archive, I'm unable to check this. > > > > > From are2 at buffalo.edu Wed Oct 20 15:21:27 2004 From: are2 at buffalo.edu (are2 at buffalo.edu) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:21:27 -0400 Subject: Mississippi Valley Ablaut In-Reply-To: <026601c4b6aa$b558ae80$06b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Of course, I'd like one, too. If you have problems with the pdf, let me know, maybe I can help. Thanks! Ardis Quoting "R. Rankin" : > John Boyle asked for a PDF file, so I'll try to make one of those. > It should > work with the Mac. I can't remember if I used fonts in addition to > Siouan > SSDoulos or not. And I don't know if you will need them for a .PDF > file or not. > > Bob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alfred W. T�ting" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 1:59 AM > Subject: Mississippi Valley Ablaut > > > > > (Bob) If you have the Siouan fonts from John Koontz's website, I > have > > a historical treatment of the origins of Ablaut I can email. It > isn't > > published but it ought to be readable. (N.B. those Siouan fonts > don't > > work with the Mac.) << > > > > > > Thanks! Although my platform being Mac (OS X 10.3.5) I think that > the > > font should work. Would you plz tell me exactly which one to > download. > > Let's give it a try. :) > > > > Alfred > > > > BTW, can it be that some of my postings got 'filtered out' so I > received > > no copies back here? Since somehow no longer having access to the > list > > archive, I'm unable to check this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Oct 20 15:37:39 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 09:37:39 -0600 Subject: Fonts (Re: Mississippi Valley Ablaut) In-Reply-To: <026601c4b6aa$b558ae80$06b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Oct 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > John Boyle asked for a PDF file, so I'll try to make one of those. It > should work with the Mac. I can't remember if I used fonts in addition > to Siouan SSDoulos or not. And I don't know if you will need them for a > .PDF file or not. I think the fonts are embedded in the PDF file, and that this is the virtue of the PDF format - it allows font embedding. The Adobe Acrobat Writer in Acrobat Professional makes PDF files, and there are a few alternatives. For example, GhostWord (http://www.et.dtu.dk/software/ghostword/), though it isn't quite up to date. It requites you to find and install a version of Ghostview, too. > This installed in Office 2002 for me in Word and Excel. It said it > couldn't handle PowerPoint. It did put the icon in PowerPoint, but it > seems to be inactive. It works in Word, but only on a document you've > already saved. It worked in Excel, too, but said it had an illegal > parameter. My understanding is that it is also possible to convert Windows TTF files to Mac TrueType font files using tools available on the Web, but I don't know the details. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Wed Oct 20 17:06:48 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 19:06:48 +0200 Subject: Mississippi Valley Ablaut Message-ID: >(Bob) John Boyle asked for a PDF file, so I'll try to make one of those. It should work with the Mac. I can't remember if I used fonts in addition to Siouan SSDoulos or not. And I don't know if you will need them for a .PDF file or not. << > (John) I think the fonts are embedded in the PDF file, and that this is the virtue of the PDF format - it allows font embedding... << Yes, as you say, that's the most important feature of PDF that makes it most valuable. One can embed fonts, pictures etc. > (John) My understanding is that it is also possible to convert Windows TTF files to Mac TrueType font files using tools available on the Web, but I don't know the details.on << I once - some versions of Mac OS X ago - converted Window TTF to Mac format and back again (using Fontographer, a professional tool). As it seems now, this is no longer needed with the last OS X versions of Macintosh. So I can give it a try with it. Yet, there might be still one problem: Window documents - even if in Word format - are pretty hard to read by Word for Mac: there's quite some labour to manually remove all those headers etc. and change (i.e. replace by cut & paste) many non-Ascii characters. Alfred From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Wed Oct 20 18:57:57 2004 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:57:57 -0700 Subject: 2005 Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference. In-Reply-To: <004501c4b4b9$75587f60$b8660945@JIMM> Message-ID: For information concerning the Osage I'nlonschka dances in June 2005, the following Osage Nation Directory may be helpful in contacting someone that could help you. This directory can be found on the Official Osage Nation Website at the URL: http://osagetribe.com/ Hope it helps, Jonathan Holmes OSAGE NATION DIRECTORY For general information contact Julia Lookout at (918) 287-5432 31st Osage Tribal Council P.O. Box 779 Pawhuska, OK 74056 (918) 287-5432 Toll Free: 800-320-8742 FAX: (918) 287-2257 Principal Chief Jim Gray Cell: 918-606-4834 Council Member Mark Freeman, JR. Cell: 918-605-1941 Council Member Terry Mason Moore Cell: (918) 605-9674 Council Member Harry Roy Red Eagle Cell: (918) 640-0301 Council Member Jodie Satepauhoodle Cell: (918) 630-3544 Assistant Principal Chief Kenneth H. BigHorse Home: (918) 287-2362 Council Member Jerry Shaw Cell: (918) 640-0306 Council Member Paul Stabler Cell: (918) 605-0131 Council Member Dudley Whitehorn Cell: (918) 760-2399 Council Member John W. Williams Cell: (918) 760-2403 Osage Tribal Council Office 1-800-320-8742 FAX: (918) 287-2257 Council Administrator Jewell Purcell (918) 287-5438 Secretary/Revocable Trust Clerk Bunnie Sullins (918) 287-5433 Administrative Asst. Carrie Rogers (918) 287-5480 Executive Assistant/Comm Julia Lookout (918) 287-5434 Administrative Sec. Sara Taylor (918) 287-5359 Jimm GoodTracks wrote: Bob: I know Carolyn spoke to you how the 3 districts set the dates with Grey Horse always the first one and most regularly set during the first weekend of June. Below you mention coordinating the Conference with the Spring Ilonshka (x3), so as interested persons who attend the Dance(s) could attend the Conference in the evening. There are two dance sessions on Thursday, Friday & Saturday. Sunday session begins about 1~2pm after dinner and lasts usually to 8pm or longer. What I am trying to say is that for those who participate and attend these dances, the evenings are no better than the mornings or afternoons to drive the good distance to be at Kaw Nation for the conference. And yes, many individuals who are interested in Osage language do attend the Ilonshka. As Carolyn says, one needs to wait to the Spring to learn what the dates will be for Hominy and Pawhuska, and in recent years there has been some innovative shuffles of dates as she suggested. Permit me to suggest that the better time to set the Conference date (I think) would be for the weekend in June that is not scheduled for any of the well attended Spring Dance Ceremonies. Even if Kaw was just up the road, rather than the hour (plus) drive from any of the three communities, it would be a competing activity and the Ilonska would win without any need to deliberate. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Rankin" To: Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 11:02 AM Subject: 2005 Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference. >I just returned from Kaw City, OK and the tribal chairman of the Kaw Nation >has > approved our request to hold the 2005 SCLC meeting at the tribal complex > in Kaw > City. Justin McBride, the Kaw language coordinator arranged this for us > and we > owe him a vote of thanks. > > We had discussed the possibility of holding the meeting at the time of the > Osage > dances so that interested persons could attend these in the evenings. > Does > anyone recall what weekend(s) this was? > > Bob --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Oct 20 21:34:12 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:34:12 -0500 Subject: PDF embedded fonts. Message-ID: Yes, ideally and theoretically the necessary fonts are embedded within .pdf documents. However, I have found that this is unfortunately not always the case. Any number of times I have tried to make .pdf files of certain documents, especially using the IroquoianABC font which includes a lot of overstrike characters, and found that the resultant .pdf file did not reproduce the fonts properly. It has also often been the case that material in columns gets shifted around. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. Nor do I know if there is a difference between the outcomes using "distiller" and "pdf writer" choices. I'll give it my best shot though. This is going to take a few days since my home was burglarized Monday and I'm having to deal with a lot of unexpected paperwork. Late next week probably. Bob From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Thu Oct 21 16:47:30 2004 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 09:47:30 -0700 Subject: Iroquoian and Siouan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My 1964 article should hardly be the last word on this. There was so much I didn't know at the time. One should note also that Lyle Campbell stands about as far to the right on these matters as Joe Greenberg stood to the left. An awful lot of work has been done on both Siouan and Iroquoian languages and language families during the last 40 years, and it might be time to take a new look. It's true that Iroquoian and Caddoan have stronger morphological resemblances, but there are certainly some intriguing things between Iroquoian and Siouan. Take, as just one set of examples, Iroquoian *oneNh 'now', *oneNhtsih 'long ago', and *-keNtsih 'old (of humans)', the last only in Seneca. I'm not competent to cite things Siouan, but how about Lakota wanaN 'now', *-xti(N) 'intensifier', and possibly *kaN 'old' (we had some discussion about this one a while ago). Anyway, we shouldn't consider the matter closed. The information, if not the personnel, is now available to do a better job. Wally --On Tuesday, October 19, 2004 2:55 PM -0600 ROOD DAVID S wrote: > There is an article by Wally Chafe in the 1964 American Anthropologist > (vol 66 no. 4 pt. 1, pp. 852-862) entitled "Another Look at Siouan and > Iroquoian" that is just about the whole body of evidence for that > suggested connection. Judging from conversations over the years, I have > the impression that Wally and Marianne are pretty convinced of a > Caddoan/Iroquoian connection, but I'm not sure where they stand on Siouan > right now. It's also worth looking at Lyle Campbell's chapter on Macro > Siouan in his "American Indian Languages: The Historical Linguistics of > Native America", pp. 262-269. He provides a thorough and critical review > of all the long-distance proposals for Siouan. Not surprisingly, he > doesn't think we can consider them related with our present state of > knowledge. > > David From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 24 20:05:44 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 13:05:44 -0700 Subject: Siouan and Iroquoian "buffalo" Message-ID: Hi, I was intrigued to find that the Biloxi word for "buffalo" is yinisa (or nsa abbreviated). The Cherokee word for buffalo is yanssi. Am I totally off the mark in thinking these are somehow related, perhaps through borrowing? Especially since the Biloxi word is so far afield from the northern Siouan (e.g., Hidatsa and Dakota) words for buffalo: mit� and pte. I don't know what the word for buffalo is in other Iroquoian languages (e.g., Seneca or Mohawk) and I don't know what the Muskogean words are. I'm wondering if both the Biloxi and Cherokee words may be borrowed from Muskogean, since both the Biloxi and Cherokee tribes originally bordered on opposite sides of Muskogean territory? Does anyone know the Muskogean (e.g., Creek or Choctaw) words for "buffalo"? (BTW--the Ofo dictionary does not show a word for buffalo.) One other thing: has anyone done comparative wordlists for both the Siouan and Iroquoian families, and/or comparative grammars, that are available and accessible? Thanks, Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Oct 24 20:25:57 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 15:25:57 -0500 Subject: Siouan and Iroquoian "buffalo" In-Reply-To: <20041024200544.86103.qmail@web53803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: David Kaufman wrote: > > I don't know what the word for buffalo is in other Iroquoian languages > (e.g., Seneca or Mohawk) and I don't know what the Muskogean words > are. I'm wondering if both the Biloxi and Cherokee words may be > borrowed from Muskogean, since both the Biloxi and Cherokee tribes > originally bordered on opposite sides of Muskogean territory? Does > anyone know the Muskogean (e.g., Creek or Choctaw) words for "buffalo"? Creek yanása [acute on second a], Chickasaw yanash. Alan From munro at ucla.edu Sun Oct 24 20:33:19 2004 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 13:33:19 -0700 Subject: Siouan and Iroquoian "buffalo" In-Reply-To: <20041024200544.86103.qmail@web53803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Creek yanasa, Choctaw yanash. Pam David Kaufman wrote: > Hi, > > I was intrigued to find that the Biloxi word for "buffalo" is yinisa > (or nsa abbreviated). The Cherokee word for buffalo is yanssi. Am I > totally off the mark in thinking these are somehow related, perhaps > through borrowing? Especially since the Biloxi word is so far afield > from the northern Siouan (e.g., Hidatsa and Dakota) words for buffalo: > mité and pte. I don't know what the word for buffalo is in other > Iroquoian languages (e.g., Seneca or Mohawk) and I don't know what the > Muskogean words are. I'm wondering if both the Biloxi and Cherokee > words may be borrowed from Muskogean, since both the Biloxi and > Cherokee tribes originally bordered on opposite sides of Muskogean > territory? Does anyone know the Muskogean (e.g., Creek or Choctaw) > words for "buffalo"? (BTW--the Ofo dictionary does not show a word > for buffalo.) > > One other thing: has anyone done comparative wordlists for both the > Siouan and Iroquoian families, and/or comparative grammars, that are > available and accessible? > > Thanks, > > Dave > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > -- ---- Pamela Munro Professor, Department of Linguistics, UCLA UCLA Box 951543 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 USA http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/linguistics/people/munro/munro.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 25 00:11:13 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 17:11:13 -0700 Subject: Siouan and Iroquoian "buffalo" In-Reply-To: <417C118F.8010202@ucla.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Pam and Alan. This seems to confirm my suspicions that Tsalagi yanssi and Biloxi yinisa are Muskogean in origin, cognate with Creek yanasa and Choctaw/Chickasaw yanash. In the case of Tsalagi, I'll be even more convinced if the other Iroquoian words (of Tsalagi's cousins in the north) turn out to be quite different! Dave Pamela Munro wrote: Creek yanasa, Choctaw yanash. Pam David Kaufman wrote: Hi, I was intrigued to find that the Biloxi word for "buffalo" is yinisa (or nsa abbreviated). The Cherokee word for buffalo is yanssi. Am I totally off the mark in thinking these are somehow related, perhaps through borrowing? Especially since the Biloxi word is so far afield from the northern Siouan (e.g., Hidatsa and Dakota) words for buffalo: mit� and pte. I don't know what the word for buffalo is in other Iroquoian languages (e.g., Seneca or Mohawk) and I don't know what the Muskogean words are. I'm wondering if both the Biloxi and Cherokee words may be borrowed from Muskogean, since both the Biloxi and Cherokee tribes originally bordered on opposite sides of Muskogean territory? Does anyone know the Muskogean (e.g., Creek or Choctaw) words for "buffalo"? (BTW--the Ofo dictionary does not show a word for buffalo.) One other thing: has anyone done comparative wordlists for both the Siouan and Iroquoian families, and/or comparative grammars, that are available and accessible? Thanks, Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- ----Pamela MunroProfessor, Department of Linguistics, UCLAUCLA Box 951543Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 USAhttp://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/linguistics/people/munro/munro.htm --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Mon Oct 25 00:23:18 2004 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 17:23:18 -0700 Subject: Same word, different meanings In-Reply-To: <20041025001113.13305.qmail@web53809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Recently I have seen the same Omaha/Ponca word in different texts with three different meanings ascribed to it. noNzhiN - arise or to stand noNzhiN - rain noNzhiN - young boy Are these meanings correct depending on the context they are used? Does the meaning change depending on other words used in conjuction with it? Is one meaning correct and the other two the result of mis-translation? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kdshea at ku.edu Mon Oct 25 03:37:38 2004 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 22:37:38 -0500 Subject: Same word, different meanings Message-ID: The first two are homonyms, with both vowels being nasal. The third word is a compound of nu 'man (male)' and zhiNga 'little, young.' (I'm not familiar with the truncated form nuzhiN.) The word noNzhiN (naNzhiN with Ponca spelling) meaning 'to stand, standing' can occur after the main verb, functioning as an auxiliary with "durative" aspectual meaning: naNzhiN naNzhiN 'It keeps on raining.' Kathy Shea ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Holmes To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 7:23 PM Subject: Same word, different meanings Recently I have seen the same Omaha/Ponca word in different texts with three different meanings ascribed to it. noNzhiN - arise or to stand noNzhiN - rain noNzhiN - young boy Are these meanings correct depending on the context they are used? Does the meaning change depending on other words used in conjuction with it? Is one meaning correct and the other two the result of mis-translation? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kdshea at ku.edu Mon Oct 25 04:26:02 2004 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 23:26:02 -0500 Subject: Ponca - pathanike? Message-ID: I'm sort of late commenting on this message and haven't yet caught up with reading later messages, but I couldn't let this one pass since I think I have an answer. Uncle Parrish (Williams), the 91-year-old elder and fluent Ponca speaker who is my consultant remembers accompanying his parents as a child to one of the dance societies that were in existence at that time among the Southern Poncas. The three that he mentioned (with the Ponca accepted spelling in parentheses) were nudaN (nudaN) 'warrior,' ppa dhattaN (pa thataN) 'strong/bitter drink/drinkers' (a translation not offered by Uncle Parrish but that I surmised from the common translation of the name of a currently active dance society--I believe under the sponsorship of Grandma Rosetta [Arkeketa] LeClair at Burr Hill--ppa dhac^aN [pa thachaN] 'strong drinkers'), and ppa dhiNge (pa thiNge). (As I recall, Uncle Parrish said that the first, nudaN, took place in a longhouse near the present-day Ponca Indian Baptist Church, and the other two, each in a round house, were located west of White Eagle, towards present-day Marland, and were sponsored by persons with the last names Jones and Roy, respectively.) Although Uncle Parrish didn't offer an explanation for any of the dance societies' names except nudaN, I was told by another Ponca speaker that ppa (pa), with the meaning of 'strong, bitter' (unrelated to the meaning 'nose, head, profile' of its homonym) refers to the strong coffee that the members of pa thataN drank as opposed to the members of pa thiNge, who didn't have any--or ran out of--coffee (thiNge ' to lack, to be without'). I hope this sheds some light on a possible meaning for the term "ppa dhiNge" if, in fact, that's the word (phrase) in the song you mention. Kathy Shea ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Holmes To: Siouan List Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 9:37 PM Subject: Ponca - pathanike? Just wondering... In a document of transcribed Ponca Songs, being: Warrior, Sylvester and Lamont Brown. 1967. Ponca Songs Sung and Translated. Recorded by Tyronne H. Stewart, October 1967 at Oklahoma City, OK. Transcribed by Earl C. Fenner and Jon Orens. ...on page 10, is listed a song that the commentary says, "This song, he's calling his friend. He had gone on the war path. At the beginning of the second part, 'pathanike', that we don't know. It's an ancient word which we have never learned as to what it means. But the first two words is 'kotha nuda he tha', it means 'friend had been on the war path.' I was wondering if anyone may want to take a crack at trying to figure out what the old Ponca term pathanike might mean. I'm pretty sure 'pa' means 'head' or 'first'. Jonathan Holmes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kdshea at ku.edu Mon Oct 25 04:46:47 2004 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 23:46:47 -0500 Subject: Ponca - pathanike? Message-ID: Whoops! When switching between writing systems, I've been forgetting to write as a geminate /c^c^/ (sometimes a phoneme in its own right and sometimes the affricated alternative to /tt/ as it is in the following): /ppa dhac^c^aN/ (pa thachaN in common Ponca orthography) 'Strong Drinkers' (a Southern Ponca dance society). Kathy ----- Original Message ----- From: Kathleen Shea To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 11:26 PM Subject: Re: Ponca - pathanike? I'm sort of late commenting on this message and haven't yet caught up with reading later messages, but I couldn't let this one pass since I think I have an answer. Uncle Parrish (Williams), the 91-year-old elder and fluent Ponca speaker who is my consultant remembers accompanying his parents as a child to one of the dance societies that were in existence at that time among the Southern Poncas. The three that he mentioned (with the Ponca accepted spelling in parentheses) were nudaN (nudaN) 'warrior,' ppa dhattaN (pa thataN) 'strong/bitter drink/drinkers' (a translation not offered by Uncle Parrish but that I surmised from the common translation of the name of a currently active dance society--I believe under the sponsorship of Grandma Rosetta [Arkeketa] LeClair at Burr Hill--ppa dhac^aN [pa thachaN] 'strong drinkers'), and ppa dhiNge (pa thiNge). (As I recall, Uncle Parrish said that the first, nudaN, took place in a longhouse near the present-day Ponca Indian Baptist Church, and the other two, each in a round house, were located west of White Eagle, towards present-day Marland, and were sponsored by persons with the last names Jones and Roy, respectively.) Although Uncle Parrish didn't offer an explanation for any of the dance societies' names except nudaN, I was told by another Ponca speaker that ppa (pa), with the meaning of 'strong, bitter' (unrelated to the meaning 'nose, head, profile' of its homonym) refers to the strong coffee that the members of pa thataN drank as opposed to the members of pa thiNge, who didn't have any--or ran out of--coffee (thiNge ' to lack, to be without'). I hope this sheds some light on a possible meaning for the term "ppa dhiNge" if, in fact, that's the word (phrase) in the song you mention. Kathy Shea ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Holmes To: Siouan List Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 9:37 PM Subject: Ponca - pathanike? Just wondering... In a document of transcribed Ponca Songs, being: Warrior, Sylvester and Lamont Brown. 1967. Ponca Songs Sung and Translated. Recorded by Tyronne H. Stewart, October 1967 at Oklahoma City, OK. Transcribed by Earl C. Fenner and Jon Orens. ...on page 10, is listed a song that the commentary says, "This song, he's calling his friend. He had gone on the war path. At the beginning of the second part, 'pathanike', that we don't know. It's an ancient word which we have never learned as to what it means. But the first two words is 'kotha nuda he tha', it means 'friend had been on the war path.' I was wondering if anyone may want to take a crack at trying to figure out what the old Ponca term pathanike might mean. I'm pretty sure 'pa' means 'head' or 'first'. Jonathan Holmes ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Mon Oct 25 08:25:41 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:25:41 +0100 Subject: Siouan and Iroquoian "buffalo" Message-ID: Allan Taylor had an artcle on this very word in IJAL in 1976 and adduced similar forms in Natchez and Tunica, with parallels in Navajo (!) and Caddo. It's a widespread Southeastern Wanderwort. Anthony >>> dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com 25/10/2004 01:11:13 >>> Thanks Pam and Alan. This seems to confirm my suspicions that Tsalagi yanssi and Biloxi yinisa are Muskogean in origin, cognate with Creek yanasa and Choctaw/Chickasaw yanash. In the case of Tsalagi, I'll be even more convinced if the other Iroquoian words (of Tsalagi's cousins in the north) turn out to be quite different! Dave Pamela Munro wrote: Creek yanasa, Choctaw yanash. Pam David Kaufman wrote: Hi, I was intrigued to find that the Biloxi word for "buffalo" is yinisa (or nsa abbreviated). The Cherokee word for buffalo is yanssi. Am I totally off the mark in thinking these are somehow related, perhaps through borrowing? Especially since the Biloxi word is so far afield from the northern Siouan (e.g., Hidatsa and Dakota) words for buffalo: mité and pte. I don't know what the word for buffalo is in other Iroquoian languages (e.g., Seneca or Mohawk) and I don't know what the Muskogean words are. I'm wondering if both the Biloxi and Cherokee words may be borrowed from Muskogean, since both the Biloxi and Cherokee tribes originally bordered on opposite sides of Muskogean territory? Does anyone know the Muskogean (e.g., Creek or Choctaw) words for "buffalo"? (BTW--the Ofo dictionary does not show a word for buffalo.) One other thing: has anyone done comparative wordlists for both the Siouan and Iroquoian families, and/or comparative grammars, that are available and accessible? Thanks, Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- ----Pamela MunroProfessor, Department of Linguistics, UCLAUCLA Box 951543Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 USAhttp://www.humnet.uucla.edu/humnet/linguistics/people/munro/munro.htm --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Oct 25 15:09:53 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 10:09:53 -0500 Subject: Same word, different meanings In-Reply-To: <002f01c4ba43$fa570a80$8a09ed81@9afl3> Message-ID: I don't think the first two words are actually homonyms, at least in Omaha. Our speakers definitely distinguish them, and pronounce them with a somewhat different tonal contour that I haven't really been able to pin down yet. I'll have to raise this with them again. I'd be interested in knowing the full context of the noNz^iN Jonathan has found for 'young boy'. The usual word for 'boy' is nu'z^iNga, literally 'little man', as Kathy indicates. The final -ga at the end is common with animate nouns and some stative verbs, and is often dropped (or never existed) when the word is in a leading position in a compound. I suspect it was originally an independent classificatory particle (in MVS or earlier) that functioned as a generalizer. The best evidence for that hypothesis would probably be nu - 'man' nu'ga - male (animal) miN - 'woman' (originally) miN'ga - female (animal) As for nu -> noN, the leading [n] would force the following vowel to be initially nasal, which could lead to nuN. And since uN -> oN/aN in OP (and I think Dhegiha generally), that could lead to an interpretation as noN. Also, even away from nasal consonants, I have to admit to sometimes having a little trouble distinguishing [u] from [aN] at times in unaccented syllables in extended speech. Maybe these factors played in the recording of nuz^iN- as noNz^iN ? Rory "Kathleen Shea" Sent by: To owner-siouan at list s.colorado.edu cc Subject 10/24/2004 10:37 Re: Same word, different meanings PM Please respond to siouan at lists.colo rado.edu The first two are homonyms, with both vowels being nasal. The third word is a compound of nu 'man (male)' and zhiNga 'little, young.' (I'm not familiar with the truncated form nuzhiN.) The word noNzhiN (naNzhiN with Ponca spelling) meaning 'to stand, standing' can occur after the main verb, functioning as an auxiliary with "durative" aspectual meaning: naNzhiN naNzhiN 'It keeps on raining.' Kathy Shea ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Holmes To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 7:23 PM Subject: Same word, different meanings Recently I have seen the same Omaha/Ponca word in different texts with three different meanings ascribed to it. noNzhiN - arise or to stand noNzhiN - rain noNzhiN - young boy Are these meanings correct depending on the context they are used? Does the meaning change depending on other words used in conjuction with it? Is one meaning correct and the other two the result of mis-translation? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Mon Oct 25 15:57:07 2004 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 08:57:07 -0700 Subject: Siouan and Iroquoian "buffalo" In-Reply-To: <20041025001113.13305.qmail@web53809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Seneca for buffalo is degiya'goh (accent on a and nasalized o). Apparently this comes from *yotekriya'koh or something similar. Cayuga and Onondaga have similar words. It isn't clear what the word means. Wally From mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu Mon Oct 25 16:17:46 2004 From: mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Marianne Mithun) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:17:46 -0700 Subject: Siouan and Iroquoian "buffalo" In-Reply-To: <1C6EE5238E283C9A3D5C3F38@[192.168.2.34]> Message-ID: The other Northern languages, Mohawk, Oneida, Tuscarora, etc. have words based on the same stem as the Seneca, so not like Cherokee. Marianne --On Monday, October 25, 2004 8:57 AM -0700 Wallace Chafe wrote: > Seneca for buffalo is degiya'goh (accent on a and nasalized o). > Apparently this comes from *yotekriya'koh or something similar. Cayuga > and Onondaga have similar words. It isn't clear what the word means. Wally > From tmleonard at cox.net Mon Oct 25 17:03:55 2004 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:03:55 -0500 Subject: Same word, different meanings Message-ID: I agree with Kathy's findings 100%. The Ponca word for 'boy' is definitely "nu'z^iNga" (man-little). Perhaps Jonathan derived "noNzhiN" from a Ponca song (?). Sometimes in Ponca songs "nu'z^iNga" can sound like "noNzhiN". In Ponca songs you often hear "nu'z^iNga" (young man) or "s^e nu'zhiNga" (that young man) or "s^e nu'zhiNga ama"(those young men-often referring to veterans). You can also hear "naNzhiN" (to stand or get up) or "naNzhiN ga" (stand up!). In Ponca songs sometimes that "ga" changes to "ge" depending upon the song. "naNzhiN" can also drift over to "nozhiN" or "noNzhiN", as well. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Oct 25 22:43:42 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:43:42 -0600 Subject: Two Suggestions on Formatting Follow-Up Posts Message-ID: Follow ups are the soul of a discussion list, and I've been noticing recently, not entirely from the Siouan list, that there are two approaches to formatting follow ups that materially improve the readability of a list. 1) Always edit down the material in the original liberally. Don't include the whole original post. It is seldom necessary to include more than those bits of the immediately post that you wish to address. Once in a while you may end up needing to include parts of posts before the one you are responding to. There's a certain superficial honesty in including everything, but posts in a given thread get longer and longer when this is done, and it is wasteful of time and space. People who want the whole message can always refer back. If they didn't keep a copy, they can look at the archives. If you edit the original(s) to the minimum necessary to justify your response, it is easier for others to follow your thoughts. The author of the original post can always complain if you take their remarks out of context. 2) Put your comments after the original material on which you are commenting, not in front of it. Humans process things better in topic and comment order. You can write an introduction if you feel you need it for initial context. These are not presented as hard and fast rules, but only as suggestions. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Oct 25 22:59:20 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 17:59:20 -0500 Subject: Same word, different meanings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rory wrote: > I don't think the first two words are actually homonyms, > at least in Omaha. Our speakers definitely distinguish > them, and pronounce them with a somewhat different tonal > contour that I haven't really been able to pin down yet. > I'll have to raise this with them again. Just did that, and got shot down. This time our speaker held that noNz^iN 'stand' and noNz^iN 'rain' are in fact homonyms, as Kathy originally stated. (She started to cramp up just about the moment I took the opportunity to ask her, so I failed to get a very clear rendition of the word from her, and possibly 'homonym' was the least painful answer for her to give at that moment.) She did confirm Kathy's noNz^iN noNz^iN, and augmented it in repetition to S^ettaN'na naNz^iN' naNz^iN'. Still rain stands It's still raining. In any case, I'd like to retract the above cited paragraph, at least for now. Sorry about that. Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Oct 26 00:07:37 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 18:07:37 -0600 Subject: Same word, different meanings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > Just did that, and got shot down. This time our speaker > held that noNz^iN 'stand' and noNz^iN 'rain' are in fact > homonyms, as Kathy originally stated. ... > S^ettaN'na naNz^iN' naNz^iN'. > Still rain stands > It's still raining. This is just the reaction I got in 1985, with the same example, almost. I got just: NaNz^iN naNz^iN. 'It keeps on raining.' This was considered a bit along the lines of word play, I think, though not characterized as humorous. It was just considered interesting that you could say this. Mind you, this kind of assurance from a native speaker doesn't apply if you can actually hear a difference or find a test that demonstrates that the speakers themselves hear one they aren't aware of. For example, record several tokens of each, shuffle them into a known order, and see if people can usually distinguish 'He's standing' from 'It's raining'. Even if it's proverbial that it's hard to tell, and a source of humor, etc., there might be a difference. For example, my understanding is that American English speakers have trouble hearing some vowel contrasts. I think cot : caught is notorious in this regard. Some folks contrast the pair, some don't and some do, but think they don't. Some don't but think they do. I think there is instrumental evidence that some people who think there is no contrast make one. Apart from this, two similar forms might differ in some intonational contexts, but not in others. For example, they might sound the same in isolation, but behave differently following a particular preceding forms, etc. Anyway, I couldn't hear one myself in this case, apart from the first being overall higher than the second in the example - presumably due to downstepping in a phrase - but I don't entirely trust my ear with it, so that Rory's report of a subtle difference didn't strike me as at all implausible. In isolation the two forms certainly sounded the same to me. Isn't there a 'hair' form that falls into this homophonous set, too, in OP but not in the rest of Dhegiha? From kdshea at ku.edu Tue Oct 26 05:34:37 2004 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 00:34:37 -0500 Subject: Same word, different meanings Message-ID: Yes, there's a similar word naNzhiNha 'hair (on the head).' I don't think there's any reason for Rory to apologize since vowel length, pitch accent, and intonation in Omaha-Ponca seem to interact in ways that I don't think any of us have quite figured out. There are so many apparent homonyms in the language that I keep wondering if perhaps I'm missing something. When I ask speakers about two words, I sometimes get a shrug and they say that they sound "about the same"; on the other hand, I some speakers think there should be no homonyms in a language and try to make an artificial distinction between two words that probably sound the same. But I haven't really worked with enough speakers to generalize to such an extent! By the way, I've had two speakers recently insist that the Omaha-Ponca indefinite article wi 'a, one' does not contain a nasal vowel (as opposed to Dorsey's transcription). I originally transcribed the word with an oral vowel, as _wi_, in a rabbit story but then changed it to be in synch with Dorsey's transcription! This points up the difficulty of distinguishing oral from nasal vowels at the ends of words in Omaha-Ponca, especially /i/ from /iN/ or among /ii/, /iNiN/, /iNi/ (all possiblities). Kathy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: "Siouan List" Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 7:07 PM Subject: Re: Same word, different meanings > On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > Just did that, and got shot down. This time our speaker > > held that noNz^iN 'stand' and noNz^iN 'rain' are in fact > > homonyms, as Kathy originally stated. ... > > > S^ettaN'na naNz^iN' naNz^iN'. > > Still rain stands > > It's still raining. > > This is just the reaction I got in 1985, with the same example, almost. I > got just: > > NaNz^iN naNz^iN. 'It keeps on raining.' > > This was considered a bit along the lines of word play, I think, though > not characterized as humorous. It was just considered interesting that > you could say this. > > Mind you, this kind of assurance from a native speaker doesn't apply if > you can actually hear a difference or find a test that demonstrates that > the speakers themselves hear one they aren't aware of. For example, > record several tokens of each, shuffle them into a known order, and see if > people can usually distinguish 'He's standing' from 'It's raining'. Even > if it's proverbial that it's hard to tell, and a source of humor, etc., > there might be a difference. > > For example, my understanding is that American English speakers have > trouble hearing some vowel contrasts. I think cot : caught is notorious > in this regard. Some folks contrast the pair, some don't and some do, but > think they don't. Some don't but think they do. I think there is > instrumental evidence that some people who think there is no contrast make > one. > > Apart from this, two similar forms might differ in some intonational > contexts, but not in others. For example, they might sound the same in > isolation, but behave differently following a particular preceding forms, > etc. > > Anyway, I couldn't hear one myself in this case, apart from the first > being overall higher than the second in the example - presumably due to > downstepping in a phrase - but I don't entirely trust my ear with it, so > that Rory's report of a subtle difference didn't strike me as at all > implausible. In isolation the two forms certainly sounded the same to me. > > Isn't there a 'hair' form that falls into this homophonous set, too, in > OP but not in the rest of Dhegiha? > From kdshea at ku.edu Tue Oct 26 05:49:04 2004 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 00:49:04 -0500 Subject: [Spam:0011 SpamScore] Re: Omaha-Ponca words Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 3:33 PM Subject: [Spam:0011 SpamScore] Re: Omaha-Ponca words > Proper spelling is an interesting question. Quite a number of internally > consistent, more or less satisfactory orthographies have been used with > Omaha-Ponca. The best candidates for "proper spelling" in the context of > your efforts are probably the current popular orthographies for Omaha and > Ponca, which are similar, but not quite the same, though not in ways that > reflect the similar "similar, but not quite the same" situation with > respect to Omaha and Ponca speech. The differences are simply slight > arbitrary differences in the spelling scheme. I'll try to provide forms > in the Omaha version. Neither of these schemes is trictly speaking > "official," but the are both in active use within the two tribes, and > backed by committee efforts. The governing Ponca Business Committee adopted and approved the alphabetic writing system developed by the Ponca Language Arts Council, to which you refer above, as the "primary learning system of the Ponca Tribe of Oklahoma" (Resolution No. 35-042000, April 20, 2000). From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Oct 26 06:04:47 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:04:47 +0200 Subject: Same word, different meanings Message-ID: >> (Rory) S^ettaN'na naNz^iN' naNz^iN'. Still rain stands It's still raining. <<<< > (John) Igot just: NaNz^iN naNz^iN. 'It keeps on raining.' This was considered a bit along the lines of word play, I think, though not characterized as humorous. It was just considered interesting that you could say this. << This reminds me of Hungarian: Még esik az esõ Still falls the rain (It's still raining) Here, the two words are no homonyms but two forms of the same word 'to fall' i.e. "(it)falls the falling". BTW, NaNz^iN naNz^iN. 'It KEEPS ON raining' looks like sort of reduplication ;-) Alfred From cstelfer at ucalgary.ca Wed Oct 27 02:18:31 2004 From: cstelfer at ucalgary.ca (Corey Telfer) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:18:31 -0600 Subject: PDF embedded fonts. In-Reply-To: <030301c4b6ec$8bdf70b0$06b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Hi all, I had a bear of a time making your PDF file come out right Bob, but eventually I made it work. The first copy I printed out had a lot of fonts wrong, and I only figured that out because I happened to be familiar with the words in question. I went back to the computer and eventually made it better, but I'm still not 100% certain that I have all the right characters in my copy. If you could provide it as a word document and provide us with the fonts, that might work better... I'm sorry to hear that your house was broken into and I hope nothing too valuable was lost. Corey Telfer University of Calgary "R. Rankin" said: > Yes, ideally and theoretically the necessary fonts are embedded within .pdf > documents. However, I have found that this is unfortunately not always the > case. Any number of times I have tried to make .pdf files of certain documents, > especially using the IroquoianABC font which includes a lot of overstrike > characters, and found that the resultant .pdf file did not reproduce the fonts > properly. It has also often been the case that material in columns gets shifted > around. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. Nor do I know if there is a > difference between the outcomes using "distiller" and "pdf writer" choices. > I'll give it my best shot though. > > This is going to take a few days since my home was burglarized Monday and I'm > having to deal with a lot of unexpected paperwork. Late next week probably. > > Bob > > -- From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Wed Oct 27 06:00:09 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:00:09 +0200 Subject: Same word, different meanings Message-ID: John, thanks a lot for your enlightening comment. I also had the scenery in mind you're describing (although never having been to Sioux land - but it might be comparable in this respect to that of Alaska or also the Puszta in Hungary). I posted off-list b/c according to your (private) reply. But I can also put it to the list (see below). Thanks. >>> On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, "Alfred W. Tüting" wrote: BTW, NaNz^iN naNz^iN. 'It KEEPS ON raining' looks like sort of reduplication ;-) <<<<<< >>It looks like reduplication here, but the first verb is 'it rains' and the second is 'it stands', so this is 'it stands raining', not 'it rains [and] rains'. Duratives are formed with the current verbs 'to stand', 'to sit' and 'to walk'. I don't recall a case with 'to lie' at the moment. The verb chosen depends on semantic features of the process that endures. The Omahas providing these examples are aware that 'rain' and various other things 'stand' when they keep on happening.<<<< >Thanks, now I got it. So the two words are real homophones - and my Hungarian example had nothing to do with this issue :( What seems interesting to me is that the O-P idea behind this use is different from that in English or German: 'it goes on (raining etc.)' - 'der Regen geht weiter'/es regnet weiter' which indicates kind of movement/progression, whereas O-P 'stand'/'sit' denotes that an action is lasting/remaining/standing still. - Okay, this doesn't hold for O-P 'to walk' :) Thanks again Alfred<< (John's answer): This came to me as opposed to the list. I don't know if that was accidental or deliberate, so I'll respond off list. You're welcome to post your original and/or this if you like. In Siouan languages (and OP is typical of them in this respect) on-going processes are characterized in terms of shapes or postures, and the standard four "shapes" for Dhegiha are standing/vertically extended, sitting/compact, lying/horizontally extended, and moving. For example, the corresponding animate obviative articles are tHaN, dhiNkHe, khe, dhiN, corresponding to the durative auxiliaries naNz^iN, gdhiN, (z^aN ?), maNdhiN. I'm not sure that the "goes/keeps on, continues" idea is quite the same, i.e., the construction in German and English uses verbs that may or may not involve a root for motion, but as a whole reflects an idiom for "continue." The OP form uses a verb that describes an enduring shape or posture. When 'walk' appears it refers to things that progress in space or time (e.g., health) while at the same time persisting across time. So the motion verb element figures in different ways. The persistance in time is the dimension of motion in the German and English cases. The motion that the thing in question experiences while persisting is the dimension of motion in the OP case. Incidentally, out on the plains you can see rain falling in other places a long way off. Most places nothing obstructs the view of this - few trees, no really high hills, and no misty, foggy air. I've had visitors remark on this a lot. I remember once driving up to a visible wall of rain in Wyoming, passing into the area being rained on, and coming out on the other side after a while. If I'd parked beside the road, the rain would have come up to me and passed over me. I guess that would have been walking rain! The long plumes of rain descending from the distant clouds to the ground are very noticeable. Anyway, I think "standing" refers to the visible vertical path of falling rain, near or far. I suspect rain could also 'walk' as above, but this would suggest the visible progress of a storm across space. Varying the "shape" gender of a thing or activity is something that OP manipulates for descriptive affect, at least in some cases. I'll have to look up some examples of 'walk' as a durative. From rankin at ku.edu Fri Oct 29 04:38:16 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 23:38:16 -0500 Subject: Same word, different meanings Message-ID: 'To stand' has a long nasal a:N. Dunno about 'rain' Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: "Siouan List" Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 7:07 PM Subject: Re: Same word, different meanings > On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > Just did that, and got shot down. This time our speaker > > held that noNz^iN 'stand' and noNz^iN 'rain' are in fact > > homonyms, as Kathy originally stated. ... > > > S^ettaN'na naNz^iN' naNz^iN'. > > Still rain stands > > It's still raining. > > This is just the reaction I got in 1985, with the same example, almost. I > got just: > > NaNz^iN naNz^iN. 'It keeps on raining.' > > This was considered a bit along the lines of word play, I think, though > not characterized as humorous. It was just considered interesting that > you could say this. > > Mind you, this kind of assurance from a native speaker doesn't apply if > you can actually hear a difference or find a test that demonstrates that > the speakers themselves hear one they aren't aware of. For example, > record several tokens of each, shuffle them into a known order, and see if > people can usually distinguish 'He's standing' from 'It's raining'. Even > if it's proverbial that it's hard to tell, and a source of humor, etc., > there might be a difference. > > For example, my understanding is that American English speakers have > trouble hearing some vowel contrasts. I think cot : caught is notorious > in this regard. Some folks contrast the pair, some don't and some do, but > think they don't. Some don't but think they do. I think there is > instrumental evidence that some people who think there is no contrast make > one. > > Apart from this, two similar forms might differ in some intonational > contexts, but not in others. For example, they might sound the same in > isolation, but behave differently following a particular preceding forms, > etc. > > Anyway, I couldn't hear one myself in this case, apart from the first > being overall higher than the second in the example - presumably due to > downstepping in a phrase - but I don't entirely trust my ear with it, so > that Rory's report of a subtle difference didn't strike me as at all > implausible. In isolation the two forms certainly sounded the same to me. > > Isn't there a 'hair' form that falls into this homophonous set, too, in > OP but not in the rest of Dhegiha? > > From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Fri Oct 29 13:25:44 2004 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 08:25:44 -0500 Subject: Same word, different meanings Message-ID: In Osage, 'to stand' has a long nasal a:N. 'To rain', on the other hand, is either ni'z^u or nu'z^u, where the first syllable vowel is not long, or at least is not so long as the a:N in 'to stand'. I don't write 'rain' with a long vowel. Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: "R. Rankin" Sent: Oct 28, 2004 11:38 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Same word, different meanings 'To stand' has a long nasal a:N. Dunno about 'rain' Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: "Siouan List" Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 7:07 PM Subject: Re: Same word, different meanings > On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > Just did that, and got shot down. This time our speaker > > held that noNz^iN 'stand' and noNz^iN 'rain' are in fact > > homonyms, as Kathy originally stated. ... > > > S^ettaN'na naNz^iN' naNz^iN'. > > Still rain stands > > It's still raining. > > This is just the reaction I got in 1985, with the same example, almost. I > got just: > > NaNz^iN naNz^iN. 'It keeps on raining.' > > This was considered a bit along the lines of word play, I think, though > not characterized as humorous. It was just considered interesting that > you could say this. > > Mind you, this kind of assurance from a native speaker doesn't apply if > you can actually hear a difference or find a test that demonstrates that > the speakers themselves hear one they aren't aware of. For example, > record several tokens of each, shuffle them into a known order, and see if > people can usually distinguish 'He's standing' from 'It's raining'. Even > if it's proverbial that it's hard to tell, and a source of humor, etc., > there might be a difference. > > For example, my understanding is that American English speakers have > trouble hearing some vowel contrasts. I think cot : caught is notorious > in this regard. Some folks contrast the pair, some don't and some do, but > think they don't. Some don't but think they do. I think there is > instrumental evidence that some people who think there is no contrast make > one. > > Apart from this, two similar forms might differ in some intonational > contexts, but not in others. For example, they might sound the same in > isolation, but behave differently following a particular preceding forms, > etc. > > Anyway, I couldn't hear one myself in this case, apart from the first > being overall higher than the second in the example - presumably due to > downstepping in a phrase - but I don't entirely trust my ear with it, so > that Rory's report of a subtle difference didn't strike me as at all > implausible. In isolation the two forms certainly sounded the same to me. > > Isn't there a 'hair' form that falls into this homophonous set, too, in > OP but not in the rest of Dhegiha? > > From rankin at ku.edu Fri Oct 29 14:24:24 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:24:24 -0500 Subject: Kaw and Osage 'rain', 'stand' and 'boy' Message-ID: Carolyn writes: > In Osage, 'to stand' has a long nasal a:N. 'To rain', on the other hand, is either ni'z^u or nu'z^u, where the first syllable vowel is not long, or at least is not so long as the a:N in 'to stand'. I don't write 'rain' with a long vowel. Ditto in Kansa. naaNz^iN' 'stand' (1st syll. long, second accented) nuz^u' 'rain' (1st syll short, second accented, /u/ is a front-rounded V as in French) 'Boy' would be dissimilar in any event since we don't have the exact equivalent, morph for morph. Omaha nu would be Kaw do- 'male', and 'little' would, of course, be z^iNga if it is a full-fledged stative verb (or adjective if you like). It would be reduced to hiNnga, where ng is just a velar nasal, if the last part of the compound is just a diminutive marker. Dorsey didn't make this last distinction, but Mrs. Rowe always did. So Kaw and Osage have no homonyms among these three. Bob From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Sat Oct 30 01:37:31 2004 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:37:31 -0700 Subject: Same word, different meanings In-Reply-To: <086f01c4bd71$1cfa0d00$16b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Howdy, Just wanted to say thanks to all who have responded to the inquiry. I have learned a great deal. Jonathan "R. Rankin" wrote: 'To stand' has a long nasal a:N. Dunno about 'rain'. Bob --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Sun Oct 31 22:08:25 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 16:08:25 -0600 Subject: Kaw and Osage 'rain', 'stand' and 'boy' In-Reply-To: <08f201c4bdc3$0058d2b0$16b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: > Carolyn writes: >> In Osage, 'to stand' has a long nasal a:N. 'To rain', on the other hand, is either ni'z^u or nu'z^u, where the first syllable vowel is not long, or at least is not so long as the a:N in 'to stand'. I don't write 'rain' with a long vowel. > Ditto in Kansa. > > naaNz^iN' 'stand' (1st syll. long, second accented) > > nuz^u' 'rain' (1st syll short, second accented, /u/ is a front-rounded V as > in French) > > 'Boy' would be dissimilar in any event [...] > > So Kaw and Osage have no homonyms among these three. > > Bob Hmm. Well, I asked our other Omaha speaker on Friday, and after mulling it over for a while, she denied that the first syllable in naNz^iN', 'stand', was long. I wonder how Ponka handles it? Rory From poulsente at hotmail.com Sat Oct 2 17:30:44 2004 From: poulsente at hotmail.com (tom poulsen) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 11:30:44 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BARudes at aol.com Sat Oct 2 19:51:33 2004 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 15:51:33 EDT Subject: No subject Message-ID: You did not get bumped nor did you ask the wrong question. I know that I received your inquiry from the SiouanList. I think it is simply that no one has an answer to you question about the word nu ka shay. I do not recognize it as a Cherokee or a Tutelo-Saponi term, but of course, the information available on Tutelo-Saponi is extremely limited. Blair A. Rudes -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 2 21:18:12 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 14:18:12 -0700 Subject: No subject In-Reply-To: <15b.405a6183.2e9060c5@aol.com> Message-ID: This is technically not a Siouan question, but since I have been a member of this list for a couple of years, and since the only Amerindian language I've really gotten into studying thus far is Cherokee, I'm wondering if anyone out there knows of a list similar to this for Cherokee or Iroquoian languages in general, or if any of you have studied or know someone studying the Cherokee (Tsalagi) language. I have tried to get involved in Siouan linguistics, but without much success. But I have continued self-study of Cherokee and Hawaiian, so if anyone knows of similar lists or resources on these languages, which would be much more helpful to me, I'd welcome your response and information. Thanks, Dave Kaufman dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com BARudes at aol.com wrote: You did not get bumped nor did you ask the wrong question. I know that I received your inquiry from the SiouanList. I think it is simply that no one has an answer to you question about the word nu ka shay. I do not recognize it as a Cherokee or a Tutelo-Saponi term, but of course, the information available on Tutelo-Saponi is extremely limited. Blair A. Rudes --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sat Oct 2 23:03:56 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 18:03:56 -0500 Subject: naka$ay Message-ID: > The word nu ka shay, nu as in nut, ka as in cut and shay as in aye, my cousin said that his mother used to scream it at him when she was furious with him. Anyone have any thoughts on what it could mean? Hi Tom, I ran all the variant spellings of this I could think of through Giulia Oliverio's Tutelo (YesaN) dictionary but came up with very little. No entry for this word per-se. Within Siouan, however, the word naka (sometimes with the first "a" nasalized and pronounced like "uh" as you indicate) is nearly always the verb for "sit" or "be sitting". I would hazard a guess that the expression probably means something very close to "SIT DOWN!!" As in "siddown an' shaddup". :-) Just what a harassed mom might say to a pesky kid. This is just a guess, but it at least fits the context and most of the word you gave. There is also another pair of verbs that are a little similar. akaknaka 'to go out' akaknakise 'go out of a lodge' So a translation as "Get out!" is also a possibility, I suppose. The consonant you write as "sh", as in English 'fresh' is uncommon in Tutelo as written by most of the transcribers, since this sound evolved into "ch" in Tutelo. But there was a certain amount of variability in the pronunciation of "s" as "sh" in some of the documents. Bob From poulsente at hotmail.com Mon Oct 4 18:40:50 2004 From: poulsente at hotmail.com (tom poulsen) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 12:40:50 -0600 Subject: naka$ay Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon Oct 4 19:22:17 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 14:22:17 -0500 Subject: naka$ay Message-ID: [RLR: ] When you hit the "reply" key it goes to the whole Siouan list. If you want to send to a particular individual, you'll need to type in their email address and remove the Siouan at lists.colorado.edu from the address line. Thank you for the reply. I have been meaning to call but since you replied , here's an update, so far the person with the Tyutelo tape from California has not replied to my emauils, would it be possible to obtain a copy of that tape from you? [RLR: ] It would be best if Marianne Mithun gave permission for me to share her recording. If she does, I can make a copy and send it to you. Also have you contacted our Canadian Archives for any soyuian materials, they may have somethingthere, aswell I had sent you 2 references to the Shay papersa, which had some early kansas -quapaw materials did you recieve them? [RLR: ] I haven't been able to access the Shea papers site. There must have been a typo in the URL or maybe the site was down when I tried. I'll check it again. Best, Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lcumberl at indiana.edu Wed Oct 6 11:38:39 2004 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 06:38:39 -0500 Subject: "vertitive" source identified Message-ID: John Koontz recently reminded me of Allan Taylor's 1976 IJAL article on motion verbs and in re-reading it I found this, regarding a prefix he identifies as having the underlying shape k: "Stems derived by this prefix relate the mootion to one's home or to an earlier location. I shall call stems of this kind "vertitive," using the term introduced by Hollow in his unpublished Mandan dictionary." In the footnote, he cites Hollow's 1965 Ph.D. dissertation, and further states, "The term was first coined by Kaufman, although the only use in print, in this precise meaning, is by Hollow." [IJAL 42:288] I think this pretty well nails it down. Linda From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Oct 7 13:01:01 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 08:01:01 -0500 Subject: "vertitive" source identified In-Reply-To: <41653CDF.20102@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: > Thanks to Terry and (and to Linda for her dogged research), 'vertitive' > and 'voltative' will be going to Oxford: we'll have to wait to see > whether they pass editorial muster for inclusion in the OED. Not to forget 'versive.' From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Oct 7 12:55:59 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 07:55:59 -0500 Subject: "vertitive" source identified In-Reply-To: <1097062719.4163d93f888ce@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Thanks to Terry and (and to Linda for her dogged research), 'vertitive' and 'voltative' will be going to Oxford: we'll have to wait to see whether they pass editorial muster for inclusion in the OED. Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Oct 7 18:31:52 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:31:52 -0600 Subject: "vertitive" source identified In-Reply-To: <41653CDF.20102@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2004, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > Thanks to Terry and (and to Linda for her dogged research), 'vertitive' > and 'voltative' will be going to Oxford: we'll have to wait to see > whether they pass editorial muster for inclusion in the OED. I wonder about instrumental as a term for a morpheme indicating the instrument (hand, mouth, foot, etc.) or modality (force, pushing, etc.) used, or sometimes an impersonal agency (heat, wind, etc.) or for a form embodying such a morpheme. I assume it's there for a nominal case form. From mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu Thu Oct 7 19:47:37 2004 From: mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Marianne Mithun) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:47:37 -0700 Subject: "vertitive" source identified In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've generally used 'means and manner' affixes for these, because their functions do blend this way. And they are not referential in the way that nouns in an instrumental case are. Marianne Mithun --On Thursday, October 07, 2004 12:31 PM -0600 Koontz John E wrote: > On Thu, 7 Oct 2004, Alan H. Hartley wrote: >> Thanks to Terry and (and to Linda for her dogged research), 'vertitive' >> and 'voltative' will be going to Oxford: we'll have to wait to see >> whether they pass editorial muster for inclusion in the OED. > > I wonder about instrumental as a term for a morpheme indicating the > instrument (hand, mouth, foot, etc.) or modality (force, pushing, etc.) > used, or sometimes an impersonal agency (heat, wind, etc.) or for a form > embodying such a morpheme. I assume it's there for a nominal case form. > From lcumberl at indiana.edu Thu Oct 7 19:41:40 2004 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 14:41:40 -0500 Subject: "vertitive" source identified In-Reply-To: <41653CDF.20102@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Quoting "Alan H. Hartley" : > Thanks to Terry and (and to Linda for her dogged research), 'vertitive' > and 'voltative' will be going to Oxford: we'll have to wait to see > whether they pass editorial muster for inclusion in the OED. > > Alan > > > Nice! I'd be glad to see those terms included in a volume like Matthews' or Crystal's linguistic dictionaries next time they get updated. Anyone know how to propose that? Linda From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri Oct 8 00:50:16 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 19:50:16 -0500 Subject: "vertitive" source identified In-Reply-To: <1097178100.41659bf4b59d7@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: > Nice! I'd be glad to see those terms included in a volume like Matthews' or > Crystal's linguistic dictionaries next time they get updated. Anyone know how to > propose that? Crystal says in his 1992 preface "I would very much welcome reactions from readers, especially relating to terms which I have omitted to include." His email address is crystal at dial.pipex.com (Linguistics, University of Wales, Bangor). Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Oct 8 04:34:13 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 22:34:13 -0600 Subject: Instrumentals (was Re: "vertitive" ...) In-Reply-To: <54C731D4B7FF00F7D29DC3B9@mithun.ucsb.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2004, Marianne Mithun wrote: > I've generally used 'means and manner' affixes for these, because their > functions do blend this way. And they are not referential in the way that > nouns in an instrumental case are. This is certainly generally true, but the term instrumental is somewhat embedded in Siouanist terminology, and, I think elsewhere in Americanist usage, too. Just out of curiosity, has anyone seen a Siouan instrumental prefix used in a referential way? I don't have any specific examples in mind, but I do have a nagging impression I have seen some instances that were a bit out of the "non-referential" range. The best I can come up with at the moment is use of OP dha- (cf. Da ya-) with the gloss in Dorsey of 'to speak of as ...', the specific example being dhaxu'be 'to speak of as holy', where xube (is this xube' or xu'be - I forget) is 'be holy'. This reminds me of the English usage - not very productive, I think - 'to X-mouth' as in 'to bad-mouth' or 'to poor-mouth'. This isn't what I'd think of as referential, but it does seem to treat the instrumental as more of a main verb. I suppose that causative uses of Da yu- are more or less comparable. If referential uses exist, this would be somewhat analogous to the locatives occurring governing (or implying) both peripheral and central constituents, which I think is certainly the case, at least throughout Mississippi Valley Siouan. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Oct 8 05:24:31 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 23:24:31 -0600 Subject: Procedural Note: Deleting Addresses from the List Message-ID: Recently certain subscribers' addresses have begun to generate messages in response to postings on the list indicating that they are no longer valid. In such cases I have deleted the offending email address from the list of recipients of the list. This is something of a new development. In the good old days addresses mostly disappeared fairly soundlessly. For example, the late Ken Hale is still subscribing to this list, and MIT has never even complained that his mailbox is getting full. As a result, in deference to his unexpressed wishes and with the implicit concent of MIT I have continued his membership. Perhaps MIT has found a way to forward mail into the hereafter. I suspect this new development of closing accounts audibly is a result of greater care being paid to email management in these days of rampant spam and malware. In any event, I thought I ought warn the remaining members that if their mail service assures me several times that their address is invalid, I will delete them from the list. The problem is that in these cases I can't very well inform them that I have done this. So I don't. If they happen to still be there and notice that the list is awfully quiet, I recommend they look at the list archive at http://www.linguistlist.org to see if there have been recent posts. They can also email me asking if things hae been quiet. If the silence turns out to be only local and they wish to rejoin the list, I will be happy to add any address, old or new, that the subscription program believes to be valid. Note that I do not delete addresses that are merely reported by the CU mail service to be non-functioning. Ths generally only means that there is some temporary problem with the member's mail service. These temporary problems have been known to go on for a very long time, but I try to wait them out. I seem to recall a time (long) before the Siouan list when email in much of Poland was out for a month or more, and I keep that example in mind. I do delete functioning addresses if they go on for some time informing me that the mailbox is full. I try to wait this out, too, but, especially with free mail services like hotmail.com, I don't wait forever. Apparently MSN is now less tolerant with untended hotmail addreses, too. Several of the defunct addresses recently have been hotmail addresses. Note also that I now employ a sort of Turing Test on prospective new members of the list. Any email address that can convince me that it has a linguistic bent and is of sound mind is admitted. A surprising number of applications come from invalid addresses or fail to respond. Some of these may be very timid or private Siouanists who are not sure of their email addresses, but I think most of them have been spam or attempts to connect the list to a spam source. One or two have really just wanted lessons in Lakota and were referred elsewhere. JEK From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Fri Oct 8 06:26:44 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 08:26:44 +0200 Subject: Listserver down? Message-ID: For a couple of days, I no longer am able to access the archive listserver http://www.linguistlist.org although my browser seems to be o.k. What can be wrong? Alfred From rankin at ku.edu Fri Oct 8 16:38:03 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 11:38:03 -0500 Subject: Instrumentals (was Re: "vertitive" ...) Message-ID: I'm glad someone is addressing one of my major annoyances. How do I talk about the prefixes pa-, na-, ya-, po-, ka-, yu-, etc. in the same paragraph as the prefix i- on verbs?? I can't use 'instrumental' for both, yet that is how many Siouanists have handled it in the past. In one paper I used 'instrumental' vs. 'instrumentive', (I'll let you guess which was which) but I suspect that only confuses readers more. Bob > I've generally used 'means and manner' affixes for these, because > their functions do blend this way. And they are not referential in the > way that nouns in an instrumental case are. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Oct 8 17:22:37 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 11:22:37 -0600 Subject: Listserver down? In-Reply-To: <41663324.90306@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Oct 2004, "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: > For a couple of days, I no longer am able to access the archive > listserver http://www.linguistlist.org although my browser seems to be o.k. > What can be wrong? It worked for me just now. I wonder if you could be having some sort of firewall or related security issues. From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 8 20:24:03 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 13:24:03 -0700 Subject: Hiraca and Hocak Message-ID: Hello, I'm wondering what the status is right now of work on the Hiraca (Hidatsa) and Hocak (Winnebago) languages. I have not seen list email correspondence from John Boyle recently, whom I know was working on Hiraca (at least he was a couple of years ago when I visited Chicago). I wouldn't mind getting hold of any new documentation, dictionaries, updated grammars, or any other materials which may have been recently published, or which I may obtain for my own library and self-study purposes. I recently sent an email regarding Cherokee and Hawaiian. (I take it by the lack of response that there are no Siouanists out there also delving into these non-Siouan languages, or know of anyone who does.) These are the two indigenous languages I'm putting most of my efforts into right now, but I always keep an eye on Hiraca, Hocak, and some other Siouan languages as well, although I'm not formally or professionally involved in working on these languages. It's strictly for my own information and personal interest. Thanks. Dave Kaufman dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpboyle at uchicago.edu Fri Oct 8 23:53:17 2004 From: jpboyle at uchicago.edu (John Boyle) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 18:53:17 -0500 Subject: Hidatsa update Message-ID: >Hello, > >I'm wondering what the status is right now of work on the Hiraca >(Hidatsa) and Hocak (Winnebago) languages. I have not seen list >email correspondence from John Boyle recently, whom I know was >working on Hiraca (at least he was a couple of years ago when I >visited Chicago). I wouldn't mind getting hold of any new >documentation, dictionaries, updated grammars, or any other >materials which may have been recently published, or which I may >obtain for my own library and self-study purposes. > >I recently sent an email regarding Cherokee and Hawaiian. (I take >it by the lack of response that there are no Siouanists out there >also delving into these non-Siouan languages, or know of anyone who >does.) These are the two indigenous languages I'm putting most of >my efforts into right now, but I always keep an eye on Hiraca, >Hocak, and some other Siouan languages as well, although I'm not >formally or professionally involved in working on these languages. >It's strictly for my own information and personal interest. > >Thanks. > >Dave Kaufman >dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com > > > Hi All, Well, I'm still working on Hidatsa. I have just completed a dissertation chapter on relative clauses which is more or less ready to go. It is pretty theoretical with a lot of syntactic trees, but if anyone would like a copy, I'd be happy to send a pdf. I have also spent a good chunk of the summer entering Wes Jones' Word List/Dictionary into an excel spread sheet, so that it is searchable. Unfortunately, I use fonts that are probably not compatible for PC users. I hope to do a find and replace in the near future so that it is available for the schools on the reservation and anyone else who would like a copy. Throughout the coming year, I plan on checking all of the words and adding more to the list. All in all, it is a really good word list although some of the non-traditional words are not agreed upon by some people, so we'll want to flag those. We are also working on lesson plans and grammar exercises for the schools to ensure that we are in line with all of the "No Child Left Behind" guidelines. In addition, we hope to be completing a "Sketch" for Lincolm on Hidatsa within the next year and a half. With regards to texts, I have completed interlinear breakdowns for all of the Lowie and Earth Lodge texts in addition to several others, giving us a total of 13 completed texts (which is over 1150 lines). There is still some inconsistency within the texts as my analysis has changed over the years, so I wouldn't feel so comfortable giving these out. In addition, some of the Hidatsa feel that some of these stories shouldn't be told to outsiders, so we still have to work through that culturally sensitive point. Other than that, things are going well on Ft. Berthold. The new immersion programs are working well for the younger children and the high school programs are becoming more uniform in their content. With regards to Hocank, I assume that Helmbrecht is still actively working on the language and I know that there are very active language revitalization programs going on on all of the reservations. So that's what's going an as far as I know. All the best, John (Boyle not Koontz) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 9 23:54:02 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 16:54:02 -0700 Subject: Hidatsa update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, John B., for your response and update on Hiraca. Glad to hear from you and know you're still involved in the tribe's efforts to revitalize it. Also, I wanted to ask the list about Biloxi. I was informed that there are a lot of texts available. I'm not sure if it's still spoken or if it's one of the unfortunate extinct Siouan languages. Also, I'm wondering if anyone is currently involved in its research. Since I'm still willing and able to work on a Siouan language, and since right now it's rather difficult financially for me to travel across the country to do fieldwork, I feel I'd be in a very good position to study an "extinct" language which involves only written materials and texts. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can get more info on this language and its current status and where I may be able to get hold of copies of its texts? Thanks. Dave Kaufman John Boyle wrote: Hello, I'm wondering what the status is right now of work on the Hiraca (Hidatsa) and Hocak (Winnebago) languages. I have not seen list email correspondence from John Boyle recently, whom I know was working on Hiraca (at least he was a couple of years ago when I visited Chicago). I wouldn't mind getting hold of any new documentation, dictionaries, updated grammars, or any other materials which may have been recently published, or which I may obtain for my own library and self-study purposes. I recently sent an email regarding Cherokee and Hawaiian. (I take it by the lack of response that there are no Siouanists out there also delving into these non-Siouan languages, or know of anyone who does.) These are the two indigenous languages I'm putting most of my efforts into right now, but I always keep an eye on Hiraca, Hocak, and some other Siouan languages as well, although I'm not formally or professionally involved in working on these languages. It's strictly for my own information and personal interest. Thanks. Dave Kaufmandvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com --------------------------------- Hi All, Well, I'm still working on Hidatsa. I have just completed a dissertation chapter on relative clauses which is more or less ready to go. It is pretty theoretical with a lot of syntactic trees, but if anyone would like a copy, I'd be happy to send a pdf. I have also spent a good chunk of the summer entering Wes Jones' Word List/Dictionary into an excel spread sheet, so that it is searchable. Unfortunately, I use fonts that are probably not compatible for PC users. I hope to do a find and replace in the near future so that it is available for the schools on the reservation and anyone else who would like a copy. Throughout the coming year, I plan on checking all of the words and adding more to the list. All in all, it is a really good word list although some of the non-traditional words are not agreed upon by some people, so we'll want to flag those. We are also working on lesson plans and grammar exercises for the schools to ensure that we are in line with all of the "No Child Left Behind" guidelines. In addition, we hope to be completing a "Sketch" for Lincolm on Hidatsa within the next year and a half. With regards to texts, I have completed interlinear breakdowns for all of the Lowie and Earth Lodge texts in addition to several others, giving us a total of 13 completed texts (which is over 1150 lines). There is still some inconsistency within the texts as my analysis has changed over the years, so I wouldn't feel so comfortable giving these out. In addition, some of the Hidatsa feel that some of these stories shouldn't be told to outsiders, so we still have to work through that culturally sensitive point. Other than that, things are going well on Ft. Berthold. The new immersion programs are working well for the younger children and the high school programs are becoming more uniform in their content. With regards to Hocank, I assume that Helmbrecht is still actively working on the language and I know that there are very active language revitalization programs going on on all of the reservations. So that's what's going an as far as I know. All the best, John (Boyle not Koontz) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sun Oct 10 14:57:51 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 09:57:51 -0500 Subject: Biloxi update Message-ID: The place to start with Biloxi is John R. Swanton and James Owen Dorsey, A Dictionary of the Biloxi and Ofo Languages. BAE Bulletin 47, 1912. Paula Einaudi's U. of Colorado dissertation from about '74 is based on D&S and is a good starting place for further work. I reviewed the book for IJAL and have written a few additional papers on Biloxi and Ofo. The Smithsonian has Dorsey's original Biloxi field notes which may contain additional information. Gatschet did a little earlier field work incorporated by Dorsey. Mary Haas located a woman in about 1934 who could remember a few words of Biloxi and she published a paper in IJAL in about 1968 entitled "The last words of Biloxi". Randy Graczyk has a nice paper on Biloxi switch-reference particles in MS form. There is much about Biloxi morphosyntax that needs clarification. Einaudi's sketch is a beginning, but the definitive Biloxi grammar is yet to be written. I don't think another "dissertation length" treatise would cover it. It is pretty much a career's worth of work for somebody. Not me -- I have noodled around with it, but I'm too old and have too much on my plate already. I hope you or someone else will work with what's available. Hint: Take Dorsey's two series of stop consonants (plain and with subscript dots) seriously. They represent distinct phonological series that were missed by virtually everybody after Dorsey. Another hint: A single linguist per language guarantees totally inadequate coverage. There is still much to analyze in Dakotan, and numerous linguists have been trying to understand how that language works for well over 150 years. The other Siouan languages haven't seen nearly as much work. There's plenty to do with both texts and speakers in a variety of languages, and if it's done right, both speakers and linguists will appreciate the effort. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Kaufman" To: Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 6:54 PM Subject: Re: Hidatsa update > Thanks, John B., for your response and update on Hiraca. Glad to hear from you and know you're still involved in the tribe's efforts to revitalize it. > > Also, I wanted to ask the list about Biloxi. I was informed that there are a lot of texts available. I'm not sure if it's still spoken or if it's one of the unfortunate extinct Siouan languages. Also, I'm wondering if anyone is currently involved in its research. Since I'm still willing and able to work on a Siouan language, and since right now it's rather difficult financially for me to travel across the country to do fieldwork, I feel I'd be in a very good position to study an "extinct" language which involves only written materials and texts. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can get more info on this language and its current status and where I may be able to get hold of copies of its texts? > > Thanks. > > Dave Kaufman > > John Boyle wrote: > Hello, I'm wondering what the status is right now of work on the Hiraca (Hidatsa) and Hocak (Winnebago) languages. I have not seen list email correspondence from John Boyle recently, whom I know was working on Hiraca (at least he was a couple of years ago when I visited Chicago). I wouldn't mind getting hold of any new documentation, dictionaries, updated grammars, or any other materials which may have been recently published, or which I may obtain for my own library and self-study purposes. I recently sent an email regarding Cherokee and Hawaiian. (I take it by the lack of response that there are no Siouanists out there also delving into these non-Siouan languages, or know of anyone who does.) These are the two indigenous languages I'm putting most of my efforts into right now, but I always keep an eye on Hiraca, Hocak, and some other Siouan languages as well, although I'm not formally or professionally involved in working on these languages. It's strictly for my own > information and personal interest. Thanks. Dave Kaufmandvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com > > --------------------------------- > > > > > Hi All, > > > Well, I'm still working on Hidatsa. I have just completed a dissertation chapter on relative clauses which is more or less ready to go. It is pretty theoretical with a lot of syntactic trees, but if anyone would like a copy, I'd be happy to send a pdf. I have also spent a good chunk of the summer entering Wes Jones' Word List/Dictionary into an excel spread sheet, so that it is searchable. Unfortunately, I use fonts that are probably not compatible for PC users. I hope to do a find and replace in the near future so that it is available for the schools on the reservation and anyone else who would like a copy. Throughout the coming year, I plan on checking all of the words and adding more to the list. All in all, it is a really good word list although some of the non-traditional words are not agreed upon by some people, so we'll want to flag those. > We are also working on lesson plans and grammar exercises for the schools to ensure that we are in line with all of the "No Child Left Behind" guidelines. In addition, we hope to be completing a "Sketch" for Lincolm on Hidatsa within the next year and a half. With regards to texts, I have completed interlinear breakdowns for all of the Lowie and Earth Lodge texts in addition to several others, giving us a total of 13 completed texts (which is over 1150 lines). There is still some inconsistency within the texts as my analysis has changed over the years, so I wouldn't feel so comfortable giving these out. In addition, some of the Hidatsa feel that some of these stories shouldn't be told to outsiders, so we still have to work through that culturally sensitive point. > Other than that, things are going well on Ft. Berthold. The new immersion programs are working well for the younger children and the high school programs are becoming more uniform in their content. > With regards to Hocank, I assume that Helmbrecht is still actively working on the language and I know that there are very active language revitalization programs going on on all of the reservations. > > > So that's what's going an as far as I know. > > > All the best, > > > John (Boyle not Koontz) > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 10 18:58:29 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 11:58:29 -0700 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: <01fa01c4aed9$8551e6d0$0eb5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Hi Bob: Thanks for your reply and information. This, of course, leads me to a few other questions: --John R. Swanton and James Owen Dorsey, A Dictionary of the Biloxi and Ofo Languages. BAE Bulletin 47, 1912. Paula Einaudi's U. of Colorado dissertation from about '74 is based on D&S and is a good starting place for further work. The Smithsonian has Dorsey's original Biloxi field notes which may contain additional information.-- Can the dictionary be special ordered perhaps through Borders or Amazon.com? May I request a copy of Einaudi's dissertation from U of Colorado by phone or email to be sent to me? Whom would I contact at the Smithsonian to get copies of Dorsey's field notes? --I don't think another "dissertation length" treatise would cover it. It is pretty much a career's worth of work for somebody. I hope you or someone else will work with what's available.-- As I've said on this list before, I am quite willing and able to work on documenting a Siouan language and would appreciate the opportunity. I already have some Siouan background with the VERY basic knowledge of Hiraca, which I took a passive interest in and have spoken with John B. about, and some VERY limited knowledge of Hocak based on copies of papers I received while in Chicago. I would imagine documenting an "extinct" language has its own problems, since there are no longer native speakers left with which to confirm data. But I suppose it also has its advantages in that one doesn't have to go through the long and difficult process of establishing rapports with native speakers and become involved in tribal politics which I've heard sometimes happens in field work. It seems my main difficulty would just be in gathering, from a distance, all the extant materials and prior work that has been done. I'm also curious about one other thing: since I currently have an MA (not a PhD) in linguistics, would it be too illogical to assume that once one is already involved in analysis of a language, that it would be easier to be accepted to a PhD-granting university? I mean if I were to make a career of analyzing a language and would be developing the material for a dissertation anyway, and then some!, wouldn't this also suggest easier acceptance into a program? I have actually considered applying to Canadian or British universities where I understand all that's required is research and a dissertation, and extra course work is not needed as is the case here in the US. I'm nearly 42 years old, so of course time is an issue for me in achieving a PhD. Not that I'm hellbent on achieving a PhD (it really doesn't matter that much to me either way) but since I'd already be doing the research and work that a dissertation would entail, why not? Thanks again for your feedback and answering my many questions! Dave "R. Rankin" wrote: The place to start with Biloxi is John R. Swanton and James Owen Dorsey, A Dictionary of the Biloxi and Ofo Languages. BAE Bulletin 47, 1912. Paula Einaudi's U. of Colorado dissertation from about '74 is based on D&S and is a good starting place for further work. I reviewed the book for IJAL and have written a few additional papers on Biloxi and Ofo. The Smithsonian has Dorsey's original Biloxi field notes which may contain additional information. Gatschet did a little earlier field work incorporated by Dorsey. Mary Haas located a woman in about 1934 who could remember a few words of Biloxi and she published a paper in IJAL in about 1968 entitled "The last words of Biloxi". Randy Graczyk has a nice paper on Biloxi switch-reference particles in MS form. There is much about Biloxi morphosyntax that needs clarification. Einaudi's sketch is a beginning, but the definitive Biloxi grammar is yet to be written. I don't think another "dissertation length" treatise would cover it. It is pretty much a career's worth of work for somebody. Not me -- I have noodled around with it, but I'm too old and have too much on my plate already. I hope you or someone else will work with what's available. Hint: Take Dorsey's two series of stop consonants (plain and with subscript dots) seriously. They represent distinct phonological series that were missed by virtually everybody after Dorsey. Another hint: A single linguist per language guarantees totally inadequate coverage. There is still much to analyze in Dakotan, and numerous linguists have been trying to understand how that language works for well over 150 years. The other Siouan languages haven't seen nearly as much work. There's plenty to do with both texts and speakers in a variety of languages, and if it's done right, both speakers and linguists will appreciate the effort. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Kaufman" To: Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 6:54 PM Subject: Re: Hidatsa update > Thanks, John B., for your response and update on Hiraca. Glad to hear from you and know you're still involved in the tribe's efforts to revitalize it. > > Also, I wanted to ask the list about Biloxi. I was informed that there are a lot of texts available. I'm not sure if it's still spoken or if it's one of the unfortunate extinct Siouan languages. Also, I'm wondering if anyone is currently involved in its research. Since I'm still willing and able to work on a Siouan language, and since right now it's rather difficult financially for me to travel across the country to do fieldwork, I feel I'd be in a very good position to study an "extinct" language which involves only written materials and texts. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can get more info on this language and its current status and where I may be able to get hold of copies of its texts? > > Thanks. > > Dave Kaufman > > John Boyle wrote: > Hello, I'm wondering what the status is right now of work on the Hiraca (Hidatsa) and Hocak (Winnebago) languages. I have not seen list email correspondence from John Boyle recently, whom I know was working on Hiraca (at least he was a couple of years ago when I visited Chicago). I wouldn't mind getting hold of any new documentation, dictionaries, updated grammars, or any other materials which may have been recently published, or which I may obtain for my own library and self-study purposes. I recently sent an email regarding Cherokee and Hawaiian. (I take it by the lack of response that there are no Siouanists out there also delving into these non-Siouan languages, or know of anyone who does.) These are the two indigenous languages I'm putting most of my efforts into right now, but I always keep an eye on Hiraca, Hocak, and some other Siouan languages as well, although I'm not formally or professionally involved in working on these languages. It's strictly for my own > information and personal interest. Thanks. Dave Kaufmandvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com > > --------------------------------- > > > > > Hi All, > > > Well, I'm still working on Hidatsa. I have just completed a dissertation chapter on relative clauses which is more or less ready to go. It is pretty theoretical with a lot of syntactic trees, but if anyone would like a copy, I'd be happy to send a pdf. I have also spent a good chunk of the summer entering Wes Jones' Word List/Dictionary into an excel spread sheet, so that it is searchable. Unfortunately, I use fonts that are probably not compatible for PC users. I hope to do a find and replace in the near future so that it is available for the schools on the reservation and anyone else who would like a copy. Throughout the coming year, I plan on checking all of the words and adding more to the list. All in all, it is a really good word list although some of the non-traditional words are not agreed upon by some people, so we'll want to flag those. > We are also working on lesson plans and grammar exercises for the schools to ensure that we are in line with all of the "No Child Left Behind" guidelines. In addition, we hope to be completing a "Sketch" for Lincolm on Hidatsa within the next year and a half. With regards to texts, I have completed interlinear breakdowns for all of the Lowie and Earth Lodge texts in addition to several others, giving us a total of 13 completed texts (which is over 1150 lines). There is still some inconsistency within the texts as my analysis has changed over the years, so I wouldn't feel so comfortable giving these out. In addition, some of the Hidatsa feel that some of these stories shouldn't be told to outsiders, so we still have to work through that culturally sensitive point. > Other than that, things are going well on Ft. Berthold. The new immersion programs are working well for the younger children and the high school programs are becoming more uniform in their content. > With regards to Hocank, I assume that Helmbrecht is still actively working on the language and I know that there are very active language revitalization programs going on on all of the reservations. > > > So that's what's going an as far as I know. > > > All the best, > > > John (Boyle not Koontz) > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sun Oct 10 20:45:12 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:45:12 -0500 Subject: Biloxi update Message-ID: > Can the dictionary be special ordered perhaps through Borders or Amazon.com? There are lots of used copies floating around. Amazon.com's websites incorporates inventories from several other antiquarian booksellers. check there first. > May I request a copy of Einaudi's dissertation from U of Colorado by phone or email to be sent to me? It was published by Garland Press. There should be used copies floating around. Whom would I contact at the Smithsonian to get copies of Dorsey's field notes? Go to the National Anthropological Archives website and start there. They charge an arm and a leg for photocopying but may have the Biloxi on microfilm. I don't know. > I would imagine documenting an "extinct" language has its own problems, since there are no longer native speakers left with which to confirm data. But I suppose it also has its advantages in that one doesn't have to go through the long and difficult process of establishing rapports with native speakers and become involved in tribal politics which I've heard sometimes happens in field work. It seems my main difficulty would just be in gathering, from a distance, all the extant materials and prior work that has been done. Better look at Dorsey and Swanton first, and Einaudi. It's true that for philological analysis of texts lots of comparative work is useful. > I'm also curious about one other thing: since I currently have an MA (not a PhD) in linguistics, would it be too illogical to assume that once one is already involved in analysis of a language, that it would be easier to be accepted to a PhD-granting university? I mean if I were to make a career of analyzing a language and would be developing the material for a dissertation anyway, and then some!, wouldn't this also suggest easier acceptance into a program? I have actually considered applying to Canadian or British universities where I understand all that's required is research and a dissertation, and extra course work is not needed as is the case here in the US. I'm nearly 42 years old, so of course time is an issue for me in achieving a PhD. Not that I'm hellbent on achieving a PhD (it really doesn't matter that much to me either way) but since I'd already be doing the research and work that a dissertation would entail, why not? I'm sure there are lots of Ph.D. programs in Linguistics that would love to have applicants. This is especially true with international student applications down 20 or 30%. You'd maybe want a local Siouanist and definitely the availability of comparative linguistics if possible. That restricts the possibilities somewhat. At the moment I guess you might think of Colorado, Chicago, UCSB, UCLA, UCB, Indiana, Utah, SUNY Buffalo, UBC, Regina, Toronto in no particular order. I'm probably leaving someone out. I'm retiring in May or I'd mention KS. There are some Anthropology depts among these too. Bob > > Thanks again for your feedback and answering my many questions! > > Dave > > "R. Rankin" wrote: > The place to start with Biloxi is John R. Swanton and James Owen Dorsey, A > Dictionary of the Biloxi and Ofo Languages. BAE Bulletin 47, 1912. Paula > Einaudi's U. of Colorado dissertation from about '74 is based on D&S and is a > good starting place for further work. I reviewed the book for IJAL and have > written a few additional papers on Biloxi and Ofo. The Smithsonian has Dorsey's > original Biloxi field notes which may contain additional information. Gatschet > did a little earlier field work incorporated by Dorsey. Mary Haas located a > woman in about 1934 who could remember a few words of Biloxi and she published a > paper in IJAL in about 1968 entitled "The last words of Biloxi". Randy Graczyk > has a nice paper on Biloxi switch-reference particles in MS form. > > There is much about Biloxi morphosyntax that needs clarification. Einaudi's > sketch is a beginning, but the definitive Biloxi grammar is yet to be written. > I don't think another "dissertation length" treatise would cover it. It is > pretty much a career's worth of work for somebody. Not me -- I have noodled > around with it, but I'm too old and have too much on my plate already. I hope > you or someone else will work with what's available. > > Hint: Take Dorsey's two series of stop consonants (plain and with subscript > dots) seriously. They represent distinct phonological series that were missed > by virtually everybody after Dorsey. > > Another hint: A single linguist per language guarantees totally inadequate > coverage. There is still much to analyze in Dakotan, and numerous linguists > have been trying to understand how that language works for well over 150 years. > The other Siouan languages haven't seen nearly as much work. There's plenty to > do with both texts and speakers in a variety of languages, and if it's done > right, both speakers and linguists will appreciate the effort. > > Bob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Kaufman" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 6:54 PM > Subject: Re: Hidatsa update > > > > Thanks, John B., for your response and update on Hiraca. Glad to hear from > you and know you're still involved in the tribe's efforts to revitalize it. > > > > Also, I wanted to ask the list about Biloxi. I was informed that there are a > lot of texts available. I'm not sure if it's still spoken or if it's one of the > unfortunate extinct Siouan languages. Also, I'm wondering if anyone is > currently involved in its research. Since I'm still willing and able to work on > a Siouan language, and since right now it's rather difficult financially for me > to travel across the country to do fieldwork, I feel I'd be in a very good > position to study an "extinct" language which involves only written materials > and texts. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can get more info on this > language and its current status and where I may be able to get hold of copies of > its texts? > > > > Thanks. > > > > Dave Kaufman > > > > John Boyle wrote: > > Hello, I'm wondering what the status is right now of work on the Hiraca > (Hidatsa) and Hocak (Winnebago) languages. I have not seen list email > correspondence from John Boyle recently, whom I know was working on Hiraca (at > least he was a couple of years ago when I visited Chicago). I wouldn't mind > getting hold of any new documentation, dictionaries, updated grammars, or any > other materials which may have been recently published, or which I may obtain > for my own library and self-study purposes. I recently sent an email regarding > Cherokee and Hawaiian. (I take it by the lack of response that there are no > Siouanists out there also delving into these non-Siouan languages, or know of > anyone who does.) These are the two indigenous languages I'm putting most of my > efforts into right now, but I always keep an eye on Hiraca, Hocak, and some > other Siouan languages as well, although I'm not formally or professionally > involved in working on these languages. It's strictly for my own > > information and personal interest. Thanks. Dave > Kaufmandvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > Well, I'm still working on Hidatsa. I have just completed a dissertation > chapter on relative clauses which is more or less ready to go. It is pretty > theoretical with a lot of syntactic trees, but if anyone would like a copy, I'd > be happy to send a pdf. I have also spent a good chunk of the summer entering > Wes Jones' Word List/Dictionary into an excel spread sheet, so that it is > searchable. Unfortunately, I use fonts that are probably not compatible for PC > users. I hope to do a find and replace in the near future so that it is > available for the schools on the reservation and anyone else who would like a > copy. Throughout the coming year, I plan on checking all of the words and > adding more to the list. All in all, it is a really good word list although > some of the non-traditional words are not agreed upon by some people, so we'll > want to flag those. > > We are also working on lesson plans and grammar exercises for the > schools to ensure that we are in line with all of the "No Child Left Behind" > guidelines. In addition, we hope to be completing a "Sketch" for Lincolm on > Hidatsa within the next year and a half. With regards to texts, I have > completed interlinear breakdowns for all of the Lowie and Earth Lodge texts in > addition to several others, giving us a total of 13 completed texts (which is > over 1150 lines). There is still some inconsistency within the texts as my > analysis has changed over the years, so I wouldn't feel so comfortable giving > these out. In addition, some of the Hidatsa feel that some of these stories > shouldn't be told to outsiders, so we still have to work through that culturally > sensitive point. > > Other than that, things are going well on Ft. Berthold. The new > immersion programs are working well for the younger children and the high school > programs are becoming more uniform in their content. > > With regards to Hocank, I assume that Helmbrecht is still actively > working on the language and I know that there are very active language > revitalization programs going on on all of the reservations. > > > > > > So that's what's going an as far as I know. > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > John (Boyle not Koontz) > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Oct 10 21:36:10 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 16:36:10 -0500 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: <02a601c4af0a$0afbe2b0$0eb5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: > There are lots of used copies floating around. Amazon.com's websites > incorporates inventories from several other antiquarian booksellers. check > there first. Also Advanced Book Exchange, Alibris, and Barnes & Noble, all on line. Alan From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sun Oct 10 22:19:42 2004 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:19:42 -0700 Subject: Biloxi update Message-ID: I personally would start with bookfinder.com. I've found LOTS of old linguistic books there. Dave >> There are lots of used copies floating around. Amazon.com's websites >> incorporates inventories from several other antiquarian booksellers. check >> there first. > > Also Advanced Book Exchange, Alibris, and Barnes & Noble, all on line. > > Alan > From rankin at ku.edu Sun Oct 10 22:25:53 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 17:25:53 -0500 Subject: Biloxi update Message-ID: Oh, and don't forget the computer files of D&S's texts and dictionaries at the U. of Colorado's Siouan Archive. It was recorded in the older ASCII symbol set with all-CAPS and numerals for diacritics, but it can be dubbed down into Windows symbols/formatting by you. It's much easier to search than the book (which should always be on hand for double checking for typoes. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Rankin" To: Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 3:45 PM Subject: Re: Biloxi update > > Can the dictionary be special ordered perhaps through Borders or Amazon.com? > > There are lots of used copies floating around. Amazon.com's websites > incorporates inventories from several other antiquarian booksellers. check > there first. > > > May I request a copy of Einaudi's dissertation from U of Colorado by phone or > email to be sent to me? > > It was published by Garland Press. There should be used copies floating around. > > Whom would I contact at the Smithsonian to get copies of Dorsey's field notes? > > Go to the National Anthropological Archives website and start there. They > charge an arm and a leg for photocopying but may have the Biloxi on microfilm. > I don't know. > > > I would imagine documenting an "extinct" language has its own problems, since > there are no longer native speakers left with which to confirm data. But I > suppose it also has its advantages in that one doesn't have to go through the > long and difficult process of establishing rapports with native speakers and > become involved in tribal politics which I've heard sometimes happens in field > work. It seems my main difficulty would just be in gathering, from a distance, > all the extant materials and prior work that has been done. > > Better look at Dorsey and Swanton first, and Einaudi. It's true that for > philological analysis of texts lots of comparative work is useful. > > > I'm also curious about one other thing: since I currently have an MA (not a > PhD) in linguistics, would it be too illogical to assume that once one is > already involved in analysis of a language, that it would be easier to be > accepted to a PhD-granting university? I mean if I were to make a career of > analyzing a language and would be developing the material for a dissertation > anyway, and then some!, wouldn't this also suggest easier acceptance into a > program? I have actually considered applying to Canadian or British > universities where I understand all that's required is research and a > dissertation, and extra course work is not needed as is the case here in the US. > I'm nearly 42 years old, so of course time is an issue for me in achieving a > PhD. Not that I'm hellbent on achieving a PhD (it really doesn't matter that > much to me either way) but since I'd already be doing the research and work that > a dissertation would entail, why not? > > I'm sure there are lots of Ph.D. programs in Linguistics that would love to have > applicants. This is especially true with international student applications > down 20 or 30%. You'd maybe want a local Siouanist and definitely the > availability of comparative linguistics if possible. That restricts the > possibilities somewhat. At the moment I guess you might think of Colorado, > Chicago, UCSB, UCLA, UCB, Indiana, Utah, SUNY Buffalo, UBC, Regina, Toronto in > no particular order. I'm probably leaving someone out. I'm retiring in May or > I'd mention KS. There are some Anthropology depts among these too. > > Bob > > > > Thanks again for your feedback and answering my many questions! > > > > Dave > > > > "R. Rankin" wrote: > > The place to start with Biloxi is John R. Swanton and James Owen Dorsey, A > > Dictionary of the Biloxi and Ofo Languages. BAE Bulletin 47, 1912. Paula > > Einaudi's U. of Colorado dissertation from about '74 is based on D&S and is a > > good starting place for further work. I reviewed the book for IJAL and have > > written a few additional papers on Biloxi and Ofo. The Smithsonian has > Dorsey's > > original Biloxi field notes which may contain additional information. Gatschet > > did a little earlier field work incorporated by Dorsey. Mary Haas located a > > woman in about 1934 who could remember a few words of Biloxi and she published > a > > paper in IJAL in about 1968 entitled "The last words of Biloxi". Randy Graczyk > > has a nice paper on Biloxi switch-reference particles in MS form. > > > > There is much about Biloxi morphosyntax that needs clarification. Einaudi's > > sketch is a beginning, but the definitive Biloxi grammar is yet to be written. > > I don't think another "dissertation length" treatise would cover it. It is > > pretty much a career's worth of work for somebody. Not me -- I have noodled > > around with it, but I'm too old and have too much on my plate already. I hope > > you or someone else will work with what's available. > > > > Hint: Take Dorsey's two series of stop consonants (plain and with subscript > > dots) seriously. They represent distinct phonological series that were missed > > by virtually everybody after Dorsey. > > > > Another hint: A single linguist per language guarantees totally inadequate > > coverage. There is still much to analyze in Dakotan, and numerous linguists > > have been trying to understand how that language works for well over 150 > years. > > The other Siouan languages haven't seen nearly as much work. There's plenty to > > do with both texts and speakers in a variety of languages, and if it's done > > right, both speakers and linguists will appreciate the effort. > > > > Bob > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "David Kaufman" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 6:54 PM > > Subject: Re: Hidatsa update > > > > > > > Thanks, John B., for your response and update on Hiraca. Glad to hear from > > you and know you're still involved in the tribe's efforts to revitalize it. > > > > > > Also, I wanted to ask the list about Biloxi. I was informed that there are a > > lot of texts available. I'm not sure if it's still spoken or if it's one of > the > > unfortunate extinct Siouan languages. Also, I'm wondering if anyone is > > currently involved in its research. Since I'm still willing and able to work > on > > a Siouan language, and since right now it's rather difficult financially for > me > > to travel across the country to do fieldwork, I feel I'd be in a very good > > position to study an "extinct" language which involves only written materials > > and texts. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can get more info on this > > language and its current status and where I may be able to get hold of copies > of > > its texts? > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > Dave Kaufman > > > > > > John Boyle wrote: > > > Hello, I'm wondering what the status is right now of work on the Hiraca > > (Hidatsa) and Hocak (Winnebago) languages. I have not seen list email > > correspondence from John Boyle recently, whom I know was working on Hiraca (at > > least he was a couple of years ago when I visited Chicago). I wouldn't mind > > getting hold of any new documentation, dictionaries, updated grammars, or any > > other materials which may have been recently published, or which I may obtain > > for my own library and self-study purposes. I recently sent an email regarding > > Cherokee and Hawaiian. (I take it by the lack of response that there are no > > Siouanists out there also delving into these non-Siouan languages, or know of > > anyone who does.) These are the two indigenous languages I'm putting most of > my > > efforts into right now, but I always keep an eye on Hiraca, Hocak, and some > > other Siouan languages as well, although I'm not formally or professionally > > involved in working on these languages. It's strictly for my own > > > information and personal interest. Thanks. Dave > > Kaufmandvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > > > > Well, I'm still working on Hidatsa. I have just completed a dissertation > > chapter on relative clauses which is more or less ready to go. It is pretty > > theoretical with a lot of syntactic trees, but if anyone would like a copy, > I'd > > be happy to send a pdf. I have also spent a good chunk of the summer entering > > Wes Jones' Word List/Dictionary into an excel spread sheet, so that it is > > searchable. Unfortunately, I use fonts that are probably not compatible for PC > > users. I hope to do a find and replace in the near future so that it is > > available for the schools on the reservation and anyone else who would like a > > copy. Throughout the coming year, I plan on checking all of the words and > > adding more to the list. All in all, it is a really good word list although > > some of the non-traditional words are not agreed upon by some people, so we'll > > want to flag those. > > > We are also working on lesson plans and grammar exercises for the > > schools to ensure that we are in line with all of the "No Child Left Behind" > > guidelines. In addition, we hope to be completing a "Sketch" for Lincolm on > > Hidatsa within the next year and a half. With regards to texts, I have > > completed interlinear breakdowns for all of the Lowie and Earth Lodge texts in > > addition to several others, giving us a total of 13 completed texts (which is > > over 1150 lines). There is still some inconsistency within the texts as my > > analysis has changed over the years, so I wouldn't feel so comfortable giving > > these out. In addition, some of the Hidatsa feel that some of these stories > > shouldn't be told to outsiders, so we still have to work through that > culturally > > sensitive point. > > > Other than that, things are going well on Ft. Berthold. The new > > immersion programs are working well for the younger children and the high > school > > programs are becoming more uniform in their content. > > > With regards to Hocank, I assume that Helmbrecht is still actively > > working on the language and I know that there are very active language > > revitalization programs going on on all of the reservations. > > > > > > > > > So that's what's going an as far as I know. > > > > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > > > > John (Boyle not Koontz) > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! > > From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 11 02:36:17 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:36:17 -0700 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: <02cf01c4af18$1bf87480$0eb5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Already ordered a copy of the dictionary--a used hardback in "good" condition through Amazon. Should be arriving in the next week or so. I'm not sure if this one has the texts in it, but a NEW copy (which was all I saw) with texts costs $99.00! A bit much at the moment. Eventually I'm sure I'll get it, but I'll see where I get with the other things, especially the ordered dictionary, first. Are these U of Colorado Siouan archives something I can access online? Also going to track down the IJAL article. So, Bob, you mentioned you did a couple of papers on Biloxi-Ofo? Is this something you could email copies of, or forward via snail mail? I'm also wondering if, since Biloxi is the farthest afield of the Siouan languages, it is also the most divergent? I know in the case of Cherokee it became the most divergent of the Iroquois family because of its fairly early shift farther south. Wonder if the same is true of Biloxi in the Siouan family. It'll be interesting to compare Hidatsa, in the far north, with Biloxi, in the far south, to see how much these two Siouan languages have diverged. Thanks again! Dave "R. Rankin" wrote: Oh, and don't forget the computer files of D&S's texts and dictionaries at the U. of Colorado's Siouan Archive. It was recorded in the older ASCII symbol set with all-CAPS and numerals for diacritics, but it can be dubbed down into Windows symbols/formatting by you. It's much easier to search than the book (which should always be on hand for double checking for typoes. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Rankin" To: Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 3:45 PM Subject: Re: Biloxi update > > Can the dictionary be special ordered perhaps through Borders or Amazon.com? > > There are lots of used copies floating around. Amazon.com's websites > incorporates inventories from several other antiquarian booksellers. check > there first. > > > May I request a copy of Einaudi's dissertation from U of Colorado by phone or > email to be sent to me? > > It was published by Garland Press. There should be used copies floating around. > > Whom would I contact at the Smithsonian to get copies of Dorsey's field notes? > > Go to the National Anthropological Archives website and start there. They > charge an arm and a leg for photocopying but may have the Biloxi on microfilm. > I don't know. > > > I would imagine documenting an "extinct" language has its own problems, since > there are no longer native speakers left with which to confirm data. But I > suppose it also has its advantages in that one doesn't have to go through the > long and difficult process of establishing rapports with native speakers and > become involved in tribal politics which I've heard sometimes happens in field > work. It seems my main difficulty would just be in gathering, from a distance, > all the extant materials and prior work that has been done. > > Better look at Dorsey and Swanton first, and Einaudi. It's true that for > philological analysis of texts lots of comparative work is useful. > > > I'm also curious about one other thing: since I currently have an MA (not a > PhD) in linguistics, would it be too illogical to assume that once one is > already involved in analysis of a language, that it would be easier to be > accepted to a PhD-granting university? I mean if I were to make a career of > analyzing a language and would be developing the material for a dissertation > anyway, and then some!, wouldn't this also suggest easier acceptance into a > program? I have actually considered applying to Canadian or British > universities where I understand all that's required is research and a > dissertation, and extra course work is not needed as is the case here in the US. > I'm nearly 42 years old, so of course time is an issue for me in achieving a > PhD. Not that I'm hellbent on achieving a PhD (it really doesn't matter that > much to me either way) but since I'd already be doing the research and work that > a dissertation would entail, why not? > > I'm sure there are lots of Ph.D. programs in Linguistics that would love to have > applicants. This is especially true with international student applications > down 20 or 30%. You'd maybe want a local Siouanist and definitely the > availability of comparative linguistics if possible. That restricts the > possibilities somewhat. At the moment I guess you might think of Colorado, > Chicago, UCSB, UCLA, UCB, Indiana, Utah, SUNY Buffalo, UBC, Regina, Toronto in > no particular order. I'm probably leaving someone out. I'm retiring in May or > I'd mention KS. There are some Anthropology depts among these too. > > Bob > > > > Thanks again for your feedback and answering my many questions! > > > > Dave > > > > "R. Rankin" wrote: > > The place to start with Biloxi is John R. Swanton and James Owen Dorsey, A > > Dictionary of the Biloxi and Ofo Languages. BAE Bulletin 47, 1912. Paula > > Einaudi's U. of Colorado dissertation from about '74 is based on D&S and is a > > good starting place for further work. I reviewed the book for IJAL and have > > written a few additional papers on Biloxi and Ofo. The Smithsonian has > Dorsey's > > original Biloxi field notes which may contain additional information. Gatschet > > did a little earlier field work incorporated by Dorsey. Mary Haas located a > > woman in about 1934 who could remember a few words of Biloxi and she published > a > > paper in IJAL in about 1968 entitled "The last words of Biloxi". Randy Graczyk > > has a nice paper on Biloxi switch-reference particles in MS form. > > > > There is much about Biloxi morphosyntax that needs clarification. Einaudi's > > sketch is a beginning, but the definitive Biloxi grammar is yet to be written. > > I don't think another "dissertation length" treatise would cover it. It is > > pretty much a career's worth of work for somebody. Not me -- I have noodled > > around with it, but I'm too old and have too much on my plate already. I hope > > you or someone else will work with what's available. > > > > Hint: Take Dorsey's two series of stop consonants (plain and with subscript > > dots) seriously. They represent distinct phonological series that were missed > > by virtually everybody after Dorsey. > > > > Another hint: A single linguist per language guarantees totally inadequate > > coverage. There is still much to analyze in Dakotan, and numerous linguists > > have been trying to understand how that language works for well over 150 > years. > > The other Siouan languages haven't seen nearly as much work. There's plenty to > > do with both texts and speakers in a variety of languages, and if it's done > > right, both speakers and linguists will appreciate the effort. > > > > Bob > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "David Kaufman" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 6:54 PM > > Subject: Re: Hidatsa update > > > > > > > Thanks, John B., for your response and update on Hiraca. Glad to hear from > > you and know you're still involved in the tribe's efforts to revitalize it. > > > > > > Also, I wanted to ask the list about Biloxi. I was informed that there are a > > lot of texts available. I'm not sure if it's still spoken or if it's one of > the > > unfortunate extinct Siouan languages. Also, I'm wondering if anyone is > > currently involved in its research. Since I'm still willing and able to work > on > > a Siouan language, and since right now it's rather difficult financially for > me > > to travel across the country to do fieldwork, I feel I'd be in a very good > > position to study an "extinct" language which involves only written materials > > and texts. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can get more info on this > > language and its current status and where I may be able to get hold of copies > of > > its texts? > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > Dave Kaufman > > > > > > John Boyle wrote: > > > Hello, I'm wondering what the status is right now of work on the Hiraca > > (Hidatsa) and Hocak (Winnebago) languages. I have not seen list email > > correspondence from John Boyle recently, whom I know was working on Hiraca (at > > least he was a couple of years ago when I visited Chicago). I wouldn't mind > > getting hold of any new documentation, dictionaries, updated grammars, or any > > other materials which may have been recently published, or which I may obtain > > for my own library and self-study purposes. I recently sent an email regarding > > Cherokee and Hawaiian. (I take it by the lack of response that there are no > > Siouanists out there also delving into these non-Siouan languages, or know of > > anyone who does.) These are the two indigenous languages I'm putting most of > my > > efforts into right now, but I always keep an eye on Hiraca, Hocak, and some > > other Siouan languages as well, although I'm not formally or professionally > > involved in working on these languages. It's strictly for my own > > > information and personal interest. Thanks. Dave > > Kaufmandvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > > > > Well, I'm still working on Hidatsa. I have just completed a dissertation > > chapter on relative clauses which is more or less ready to go. It is pretty > > theoretical with a lot of syntactic trees, but if anyone would like a copy, > I'd > > be happy to send a pdf. I have also spent a good chunk of the summer entering > > Wes Jones' Word List/Dictionary into an excel spread sheet, so that it is > > searchable. Unfortunately, I use fonts that are probably not compatible for PC > > users. I hope to do a find and replace in the near future so that it is > > available for the schools on the reservation and anyone else who would like a > > copy. Throughout the coming year, I plan on checking all of the words and > > adding more to the list. All in all, it is a really good word list although > > some of the non-traditional words are not agreed upon by some people, so we'll > > want to flag those. > > > We are also working on lesson plans and grammar exercises for the > > schools to ensure that we are in line with all of the "No Child Left Behind" > > guidelines. In addition, we hope to be completing a "Sketch" for Lincolm on > > Hidatsa within the next year and a half. With regards to texts, I have > > completed interlinear breakdowns for all of the Lowie and Earth Lodge texts in > > addition to several others, giving us a total of 13 completed texts (which is > > over 1150 lines). There is still some inconsistency within the texts as my > > analysis has changed over the years, so I wouldn't feel so comfortable giving > > these out. In addition, some of the Hidatsa feel that some of these stories > > shouldn't be told to outsiders, so we still have to work through that > culturally > > sensitive point. > > > Other than that, things are going well on Ft. Berthold. The new > > immersion programs are working well for the younger children and the high > school > > programs are becoming more uniform in their content. > > > With regards to Hocank, I assume that Helmbrecht is still actively > > working on the language and I know that there are very active language > > revitalization programs going on on all of the reservations. > > > > > > > > > So that's what's going an as far as I know. > > > > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > > > > John (Boyle not Koontz) > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! > > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Mon Oct 11 12:13:12 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 13:13:12 +0100 Subject: Biloxi update Message-ID: Dave: yes, the book has the texts as well as the vocab (and see Mary Haas' artile on the last words of Biloxi in IJAL in, I think, 1968 for one other lexical item). For my money, Ofo is a bit more divergent in some respects. (I don't know Tutelo well enough to judge.) But divergence can also imply archaism. My advice on mastering comparative Siouan? Saturate yourself in the relevant works of Rankin and Rood (certainly start with their works). Someone should do a Comparative Siouan Reader one day, ditto for Alg, Caddoan, Iroquoian, Uto-Aztecan, Muskogean...(anyone spot a trend here?). Best Anthony >>> dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com 11/10/2004 03:36:17 >>> Already ordered a copy of the dictionary--a used hardback in "good" condition through Amazon. Should be arriving in the next week or so. I'm not sure if this one has the texts in it, but a NEW copy (which was all I saw) with texts costs $99.00! A bit much at the moment. Eventually I'm sure I'll get it, but I'll see where I get with the other things, especially the ordered dictionary, first. Are these U of Colorado Siouan archives something I can access online? Also going to track down the IJAL article. So, Bob, you mentioned you did a couple of papers on Biloxi-Ofo? Is this something you could email copies of, or forward via snail mail? I'm also wondering if, since Biloxi is the farthest afield of the Siouan languages, it is also the most divergent? I know in the case of Cherokee it became the most divergent of the Iroquois family because of its fairly early shift farther south. Wonder if the same is true of Biloxi in the Siouan family. It'll be interesting to compare Hidatsa, in the far north, with Biloxi, in the far south, to see how much these two Siouan languages have diverged. Thanks again! Dave "R. Rankin" wrote: Oh, and don't forget the computer files of D&S's texts and dictionaries at the U. of Colorado's Siouan Archive. It was recorded in the older ASCII symbol set with all-CAPS and numerals for diacritics, but it can be dubbed down into Windows symbols/formatting by you. It's much easier to search than the book (which should always be on hand for double checking for typoes. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Rankin" To: Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 3:45 PM Subject: Re: Biloxi update > > Can the dictionary be special ordered perhaps through Borders or Amazon.com? > > There are lots of used copies floating around. Amazon.com's websites > incorporates inventories from several other antiquarian booksellers. check > there first. > > > May I request a copy of Einaudi's dissertation from U of Colorado by phone or > email to be sent to me? > > It was published by Garland Press. There should be used copies floating around. > > Whom would I contact at the Smithsonian to get copies of Dorsey's field notes? > > Go to the National Anthropological Archives website and start there. They > charge an arm and a leg for photocopying but may have the Biloxi on microfilm. > I don't know. > > > I would imagine documenting an "extinct" language has its own problems, since > there are no longer native speakers left with which to confirm data. But I > suppose it also has its advantages in that one doesn't have to go through the > long and difficult process of establishing rapports with native speakers and > become involved in tribal politics which I've heard sometimes happens in field > work. It seems my main difficulty would just be in gathering, from a distance, > all the extant materials and prior work that has been done. > > Better look at Dorsey and Swanton first, and Einaudi. It's true that for > philological analysis of texts lots of comparative work is useful. > > > I'm also curious about one other thing: since I currently have an MA (not a > PhD) in linguistics, would it be too illogical to assume that once one is > already involved in analysis of a language, that it would be easier to be > accepted to a PhD-granting university? I mean if I were to make a career of > analyzing a language and would be developing the material for a dissertation > anyway, and then some!, wouldn't this also suggest easier acceptance into a > program? I have actually considered applying to Canadian or British > universities where I understand all that's required is research and a > dissertation, and extra course work is not needed as is the case here in the US. > I'm nearly 42 years old, so of course time is an issue for me in achieving a > PhD. Not that I'm hellbent on achieving a PhD (it really doesn't matter that > much to me either way) but since I'd already be doing the research and work that > a dissertation would entail, why not? > > I'm sure there are lots of Ph.D. programs in Linguistics that would love to have > applicants. This is especially true with international student applications > down 20 or 30%. You'd maybe want a local Siouanist and definitely the > availability of comparative linguistics if possible. That restricts the > possibilities somewhat. At the moment I guess you might think of Colorado, > Chicago, UCSB, UCLA, UCB, Indiana, Utah, SUNY Buffalo, UBC, Regina, Toronto in > no particular order. I'm probably leaving someone out. I'm retiring in May or > I'd mention KS. There are some Anthropology depts among these too. > > Bob > > > > Thanks again for your feedback and answering my many questions! > > > > Dave > > > > "R. Rankin" wrote: > > The place to start with Biloxi is John R. Swanton and James Owen Dorsey, A > > Dictionary of the Biloxi and Ofo Languages. BAE Bulletin 47, 1912. Paula > > Einaudi's U. of Colorado dissertation from about '74 is based on D&S and is a > > good starting place for further work. I reviewed the book for IJAL and have > > written a few additional papers on Biloxi and Ofo. The Smithsonian has > Dorsey's > > original Biloxi field notes which may contain additional information. Gatschet > > did a little earlier field work incorporated by Dorsey. Mary Haas located a > > woman in about 1934 who could remember a few words of Biloxi and she published > a > > paper in IJAL in about 1968 entitled "The last words of Biloxi". Randy Graczyk > > has a nice paper on Biloxi switch-reference particles in MS form. > > > > There is much about Biloxi morphosyntax that needs clarification. Einaudi's > > sketch is a beginning, but the definitive Biloxi grammar is yet to be written. > > I don't think another "dissertation length" treatise would cover it. It is > > pretty much a career's worth of work for somebody. Not me -- I have noodled > > around with it, but I'm too old and have too much on my plate already. I hope > > you or someone else will work with what's available. > > > > Hint: Take Dorsey's two series of stop consonants (plain and with subscript > > dots) seriously. They represent distinct phonological series that were missed > > by virtually everybody after Dorsey. > > > > Another hint: A single linguist per language guarantees totally inadequate > > coverage. There is still much to analyze in Dakotan, and numerous linguists > > have been trying to understand how that language works for well over 150 > years. > > The other Siouan languages haven't seen nearly as much work. There's plenty to > > do with both texts and speakers in a variety of languages, and if it's done > > right, both speakers and linguists will appreciate the effort. > > > > Bob > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "David Kaufman" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 6:54 PM > > Subject: Re: Hidatsa update > > > > > > > Thanks, John B., for your response and update on Hiraca. Glad to hear from > > you and know you're still involved in the tribe's efforts to revitalize it. > > > > > > Also, I wanted to ask the list about Biloxi. I was informed that there are a > > lot of texts available. I'm not sure if it's still spoken or if it's one of > the > > unfortunate extinct Siouan languages. Also, I'm wondering if anyone is > > currently involved in its research. Since I'm still willing and able to work > on > > a Siouan language, and since right now it's rather difficult financially for > me > > to travel across the country to do fieldwork, I feel I'd be in a very good > > position to study an "extinct" language which involves only written materials > > and texts. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can get more info on this > > language and its current status and where I may be able to get hold of copies > of > > its texts? > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > Dave Kaufman > > > > > > John Boyle wrote: > > > Hello, I'm wondering what the status is right now of work on the Hiraca > > (Hidatsa) and Hocak (Winnebago) languages. I have not seen list email > > correspondence from John Boyle recently, whom I know was working on Hiraca (at > > least he was a couple of years ago when I visited Chicago). I wouldn't mind > > getting hold of any new documentation, dictionaries, updated grammars, or any > > other materials which may have been recently published, or which I may obtain > > for my own library and self-study purposes. I recently sent an email regarding > > Cherokee and Hawaiian. (I take it by the lack of response that there are no > > Siouanists out there also delving into these non-Siouan languages, or know of > > anyone who does.) These are the two indigenous languages I'm putting most of > my > > efforts into right now, but I always keep an eye on Hiraca, Hocak, and some > > other Siouan languages as well, although I'm not formally or professionally > > involved in working on these languages. It's strictly for my own > > > information and personal interest. Thanks. Dave > > Kaufmandvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > > > > Well, I'm still working on Hidatsa. I have just completed a dissertation > > chapter on relative clauses which is more or less ready to go. It is pretty > > theoretical with a lot of syntactic trees, but if anyone would like a copy, > I'd > > be happy to send a pdf. I have also spent a good chunk of the summer entering > > Wes Jones' Word List/Dictionary into an excel spread sheet, so that it is > > searchable. Unfortunately, I use fonts that are probably not compatible for PC > > users. I hope to do a find and replace in the near future so that it is > > available for the schools on the reservation and anyone else who would like a > > copy. Throughout the coming year, I plan on checking all of the words and > > adding more to the list. All in all, it is a really good word list although > > some of the non-traditional words are not agreed upon by some people, so we'll > > want to flag those. > > > We are also working on lesson plans and grammar exercises for the > > schools to ensure that we are in line with all of the "No Child Left Behind" > > guidelines. In addition, we hope to be completing a "Sketch" for Lincolm on > > Hidatsa within the next year and a half. With regards to texts, I have > > completed interlinear breakdowns for all of the Lowie and Earth Lodge texts in > > addition to several others, giving us a total of 13 completed texts (which is > > over 1150 lines). There is still some inconsistency within the texts as my > > analysis has changed over the years, so I wouldn't feel so comfortable giving > > these out. In addition, some of the Hidatsa feel that some of these stories > > shouldn't be told to outsiders, so we still have to work through that > culturally > > sensitive point. > > > Other than that, things are going well on Ft. Berthold. The new > > immersion programs are working well for the younger children and the high > school > > programs are becoming more uniform in their content. > > > With regards to Hocank, I assume that Helmbrecht is still actively > > working on the language and I know that there are very active language > > revitalization programs going on on all of the reservations. > > > > > > > > > So that's what's going an as far as I know. > > > > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > > > > John (Boyle not Koontz) > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! > > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon Oct 11 15:05:22 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 09:05:22 -0600 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: <20041011023617.18962.qmail@web53808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The Siouan Archive files were originally prepared on punch cards in the early 1970s. Over the years they have been transferred from cards to nine-inch tapes, then to 3.25 inch disks, and now to a CD. What used to be a large closet-full of boxes and file cabinets is now one CD. However, each step in the update was merely copying for the most part. The six-bit character set restrictions we started with have not been changed, so there is a lot of two and three character encoding of complex symbols (we didn't even have lower case roman letters in our first character set). Currently a student with some interest in programming is writing conversion algorithms to make the database look more like the printed version. He has finished Kennard's Mandan, and oddly enough, the next assignment I have given him is the Biloxi texts and dictionary. He's doing this as a volunteer, however, so I don't know when he might get done. The Archive contains none of the manuscripts, just the printed versions of the texts and dictionary. It's in a very primitive data-base format (data bases were new and primitive when we started, too); it's really only searchable with a word-processor-like "find" command for particular strings. But the labor intensive part of transferring the data from print to electronics is done. John Koontz may know how to send you the Biloxi files electronically; I don't, but I can copy and mail you a CD if that will be useful. On the other hand, I think you might profit from studying the printed form for a bit, with Einaudi as a guide, and see if we get an improved character-set version of the Biloxi in the near future. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Sun, 10 Oct 2004, David Kaufman wrote: > Already ordered a copy of the dictionary--a used hardback in "good" condition through Amazon. Should be arriving in the next week or so. I'm not sure if this one has the texts in it, but a NEW copy (which was all I saw) with texts costs $99.00! A bit much at the moment. Eventually I'm sure I'll get it, but I'll see where I get with the other things, especially the ordered dictionary, first. > > Are these U of Colorado Siouan archives something I can access online? Also going to track down the IJAL article. So, Bob, you mentioned you did a couple of papers on Biloxi-Ofo? Is this something you could email copies of, or forward via snail mail? > > I'm also wondering if, since Biloxi is the farthest afield of the Siouan languages, it is also the most divergent? I know in the case of Cherokee it became the most divergent of the Iroquois family because of its fairly early shift farther south. Wonder if the same is true of Biloxi in the Siouan family. It'll be interesting to compare Hidatsa, in the far north, with Biloxi, in the far south, to see how much these two Siouan languages have diverged. > > Thanks again! > > Dave > > "R. Rankin" wrote: > Oh, and don't forget the computer files of D&S's texts and dictionaries at the > U. of Colorado's Siouan Archive. It was recorded in the older ASCII symbol set > with all-CAPS and numerals for diacritics, but it can be dubbed down into > Windows symbols/formatting by you. It's much easier to search than the book > (which should always be on hand for double checking for typoes. > > Bob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "R. Rankin" > To: > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 3:45 PM > Subject: Re: Biloxi update > > > > > Can the dictionary be special ordered perhaps through Borders or > Amazon.com? > > > > There are lots of used copies floating around. Amazon.com's websites > > incorporates inventories from several other antiquarian booksellers. check > > there first. > > > > > May I request a copy of Einaudi's dissertation from U of Colorado by phone > or > > email to be sent to me? > > > > It was published by Garland Press. There should be used copies floating > around. > > > > Whom would I contact at the Smithsonian to get copies of Dorsey's field notes? > > > > Go to the National Anthropological Archives website and start there. They > > charge an arm and a leg for photocopying but may have the Biloxi on microfilm. > > I don't know. > > > > > I would imagine documenting an "extinct" language has its own problems, > since > > there are no longer native speakers left with which to confirm data. But I > > suppose it also has its advantages in that one doesn't have to go through the > > long and difficult process of establishing rapports with native speakers and > > become involved in tribal politics which I've heard sometimes happens in field > > work. It seems my main difficulty would just be in gathering, from a > distance, > > all the extant materials and prior work that has been done. > > > > Better look at Dorsey and Swanton first, and Einaudi. It's true that for > > philological analysis of texts lots of comparative work is useful. > > > > > I'm also curious about one other thing: since I currently have an MA (not a > > PhD) in linguistics, would it be too illogical to assume that once one is > > already involved in analysis of a language, that it would be easier to be > > accepted to a PhD-granting university? I mean if I were to make a career of > > analyzing a language and would be developing the material for a dissertation > > anyway, and then some!, wouldn't this also suggest easier acceptance into a > > program? I have actually considered applying to Canadian or British > > universities where I understand all that's required is research and a > > dissertation, and extra course work is not needed as is the case here in the > US. > > I'm nearly 42 years old, so of course time is an issue for me in achieving a > > PhD. Not that I'm hellbent on achieving a PhD (it really doesn't matter that > > much to me either way) but since I'd already be doing the research and work > that > > a dissertation would entail, why not? > > > > I'm sure there are lots of Ph.D. programs in Linguistics that would love to > have > > applicants. This is especially true with international student applications > > down 20 or 30%. You'd maybe want a local Siouanist and definitely the > > availability of comparative linguistics if possible. That restricts the > > possibilities somewhat. At the moment I guess you might think of Colorado, > > Chicago, UCSB, UCLA, UCB, Indiana, Utah, SUNY Buffalo, UBC, Regina, Toronto in > > no particular order. I'm probably leaving someone out. I'm retiring in May > or > > I'd mention KS. There are some Anthropology depts among these too. > > > > Bob > > > > > > Thanks again for your feedback and answering my many questions! > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > "R. Rankin" wrote: > > > The place to start with Biloxi is John R. Swanton and James Owen Dorsey, A > > > Dictionary of the Biloxi and Ofo Languages. BAE Bulletin 47, 1912. Paula > > > Einaudi's U. of Colorado dissertation from about '74 is based on D&S and is > a > > > good starting place for further work. I reviewed the book for IJAL and have > > > written a few additional papers on Biloxi and Ofo. The Smithsonian has > > Dorsey's > > > original Biloxi field notes which may contain additional information. > Gatschet > > > did a little earlier field work incorporated by Dorsey. Mary Haas located a > > > woman in about 1934 who could remember a few words of Biloxi and she > published > > a > > > paper in IJAL in about 1968 entitled "The last words of Biloxi". Randy > Graczyk > > > has a nice paper on Biloxi switch-reference particles in MS form. > > > > > > There is much about Biloxi morphosyntax that needs clarification. Einaudi's > > > sketch is a beginning, but the definitive Biloxi grammar is yet to be > written. > > > I don't think another "dissertation length" treatise would cover it. It is > > > pretty much a career's worth of work for somebody. Not me -- I have noodled > > > around with it, but I'm too old and have too much on my plate already. I > hope > > > you or someone else will work with what's available. > > > > > > Hint: Take Dorsey's two series of stop consonants (plain and with subscript > > > dots) seriously. They represent distinct phonological series that were > missed > > > by virtually everybody after Dorsey. > > > > > > Another hint: A single linguist per language guarantees totally inadequate > > > coverage. There is still much to analyze in Dakotan, and numerous linguists > > > have been trying to understand how that language works for well over 150 > > years. > > > The other Siouan languages haven't seen nearly as much work. There's plenty > to > > > do with both texts and speakers in a variety of languages, and if it's done > > > right, both speakers and linguists will appreciate the effort. > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "David Kaufman" > > > To: > > > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 6:54 PM > > > Subject: Re: Hidatsa update > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, John B., for your response and update on Hiraca. Glad to hear from > > > you and know you're still involved in the tribe's efforts to revitalize it. > > > > > > > > Also, I wanted to ask the list about Biloxi. I was informed that there are > a > > > lot of texts available. I'm not sure if it's still spoken or if it's one of > > the > > > unfortunate extinct Siouan languages. Also, I'm wondering if anyone is > > > currently involved in its research. Since I'm still willing and able to work > > on > > > a Siouan language, and since right now it's rather difficult financially for > > me > > > to travel across the country to do fieldwork, I feel I'd be in a very good > > > position to study an "extinct" language which involves only written > materials > > > and texts. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can get more info on this > > > language and its current status and where I may be able to get hold of > copies > > of > > > its texts? > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > Dave Kaufman > > > > > > > > John Boyle wrote: > > > > Hello, I'm wondering what the status is right now of work on the Hiraca > > > (Hidatsa) and Hocak (Winnebago) languages. I have not seen list email > > > correspondence from John Boyle recently, whom I know was working on Hiraca > (at > > > least he was a couple of years ago when I visited Chicago). I wouldn't mind > > > getting hold of any new documentation, dictionaries, updated grammars, or > any > > > other materials which may have been recently published, or which I may > obtain > > > for my own library and self-study purposes. I recently sent an email > regarding > > > Cherokee and Hawaiian. (I take it by the lack of response that there are no > > > Siouanists out there also delving into these non-Siouan languages, or know > of > > > anyone who does.) These are the two indigenous languages I'm putting most of > > my > > > efforts into right now, but I always keep an eye on Hiraca, Hocak, and some > > > other Siouan languages as well, although I'm not formally or professionally > > > involved in working on these languages. It's strictly for my own > > > > information and personal interest. Thanks. Dave > > > Kaufmandvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, I'm still working on Hidatsa. I have just completed a dissertation > > > chapter on relative clauses which is more or less ready to go. It is pretty > > > theoretical with a lot of syntactic trees, but if anyone would like a copy, > > I'd > > > be happy to send a pdf. I have also spent a good chunk of the summer > entering > > > Wes Jones' Word List/Dictionary into an excel spread sheet, so that it is > > > searchable. Unfortunately, I use fonts that are probably not compatible for > PC > > > users. I hope to do a find and replace in the near future so that it is > > > available for the schools on the reservation and anyone else who would like > a > > > copy. Throughout the coming year, I plan on checking all of the words and > > > adding more to the list. All in all, it is a really good word list although > > > some of the non-traditional words are not agreed upon by some people, so > we'll > > > want to flag those. > > > > We are also working on lesson plans and grammar exercises for the > > > schools to ensure that we are in line with all of the "No Child Left Behind" > > > guidelines. In addition, we hope to be completing a "Sketch" for Lincolm on > > > Hidatsa within the next year and a half. With regards to texts, I have > > > completed interlinear breakdowns for all of the Lowie and Earth Lodge texts > in > > > addition to several others, giving us a total of 13 completed texts (which > is > > > over 1150 lines). There is still some inconsistency within the texts as my > > > analysis has changed over the years, so I wouldn't feel so comfortable > giving > > > these out. In addition, some of the Hidatsa feel that some of these stories > > > shouldn't be told to outsiders, so we still have to work through that > > culturally > > > sensitive point. > > > > Other than that, things are going well on Ft. Berthold. The new > > > immersion programs are working well for the younger children and the high > > school > > > programs are becoming more uniform in their content. > > > > With regards to Hocank, I assume that Helmbrecht is still actively > > > working on the language and I know that there are very active language > > > revitalization programs going on on all of the reservations. > > > > > > > > > > > > So that's what's going an as far as I know. > > > > > > > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > > > > > > > John (Boyle not Koontz) > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! From rankin at ku.edu Mon Oct 11 16:39:08 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 11:39:08 -0500 Subject: Biloxi update Message-ID: > Are these U of Colorado Siouan archives something I can access online? Also going to track down the IJAL article. So, Bob, you mentioned you did a couple of papers on Biloxi-Ofo? Is this something you could email copies of, or forward via snail mail? [RLR: ] Basically, I estabilished that Biloxi had two stop series for certain, probably aspirated and unaspirated, but we don't know the exact phonetic correlates. Everyone else had "normalized" it to a single series and disregarded Dorsey's diacritics. I may have a printout of that somewhere. At this year's siouan conference I also did a talk on what happened to the active/stative split in OVS. You'll need to talk with David Rood about the computer files. I'm also wondering if, since Biloxi is the farthest afield of the Siouan languages, it is also the most divergent? I know in the case of Cherokee it became the most divergent of the Iroquois family because of its fairly early shift farther south. Wonder if the same is true of Biloxi in the Siouan family. [RLR: ] I'm not sure what "most divergent" would mean. Catawba is certainly the most divergent, but it's so different we don't consider it Siouan per-se (although there's no reason why you couldn't). Blair can fill you in on what's available there. Within Siouan proper I don't know that any of the three attested OVS languages is "more divergent" than the rest. The whole subgroup is different from the other major subgroups, but the inventory of grammatical categories in OVS is essentially the same familiar one as MVS. Personally, I consider Crow the most different from what I have experience with, but that's just me. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BARudes at aol.com Mon Oct 11 22:55:12 2004 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:55:12 EDT Subject: Biloxi update Message-ID: I concur with Bob's statement about Catawba; it is much more divergent from the other Siouan languages in phonology, morphology, syntax, and lexicon than they are from one another. Bob has elsewhere compared the divergence of Catawba from the Siouan languages to the divergence between Oscan or Umbian and the Romance languages, which collectively belong to the Italic family of languages. I use the term Siouan-Catawban to refer to the ancestor of both the Siouan and Catawban langauges. The Catawban languages include Woccon, as well as perhaps other languages spoken in colonial times in the Carolinas, and Catawba. There remains an enormous amount of linguistic research to be done on the Catawba language. Franck Speck published quite a number of Catawba texts and there are a few others in the unpublished field notes of other researchers (e.g. Albert Gatschet, Truman Michelson, Raven McDavid, Frank Siebert). I am working on a grammar and dictionary of the language as time permits but there is always room for another linguist to work with the documentary material, which is fairly extensive. Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Oct 12 04:54:57 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 22:54:57 -0600 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: <01fa01c4aed9$8551e6d0$0eb5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Oct 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > There is much about Biloxi morphosyntax that needs clarification. > Einaudi's sketch is a beginning, but the definitive Biloxi grammar is > yet to be written. ... > > Hint: Take Dorsey's two series of stop consonants (plain and with > subscript dots) seriously. They represent distinct phonological series > that were missed by virtually everybody after Dorsey. I have a few additional suggestions. Einaudi simplified the over-differentiated vowel system recorded by Dorsey by deleting the diacritics. This is a good first approximation, but doesn't quite work. For example spi 'black' => supi by this approach, whereas is Dorsey's and comparative evidence suggests that the form must be sapi, cf. Da sapa, OP sabe, etc., with for /a/. Einaudi didn't really appreciate the pervasiveness of the "irregular" or "syncopating" or "second" paradigms in Siouan languages, and I think she didn't look carefully enough at things like the posibility of conditioned differences in paradigms for, e.g., different kinds of "k" initial stems. Naturally any examination of this should take into consideration the identity of the "k" initial morpheme involved and, in this way and others, of contrasts between k and k-dot - the two series of stops Bob refers to. Dale Nicklas and Bob Rankin have demonstrated that a certain familiarity with Muskogean is very useful in understanding Biloxi! One should always read Haas's paper. Not least for her advice in properly handling Dosey & Swanton! > Another hint: A single linguist per language guarantees totally > inadequate coverage. There is still much to analyze in Dakotan, and > numerous linguists have been trying to understand how that language > works for well over 150 years. The other Siouan languages haven't seen > nearly as much work. There's plenty to do with both texts and speakers > in a variety of languages, and if it's done right, both speakers and > linguists will appreciate the effort. I've always thought it might be instructive to comapre the volume of material on an relatively neglected Indo-European language like, say, Albanian, or, for that matter something extinct and ill-represented, like Oscan or Umbrian, with the volume of material on Dakota. I suspect the IE language wins every time! Haven't done the math, though. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Oct 12 05:08:45 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 23:08:45 -0600 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: <20041010185829.85551.qmail@web53805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Oct 2004, David Kaufman wrote: > [Rankin] John R. Swanton and James Owen Dorsey, A Dictionary of the > Biloxi and Ofo Languages. BAE Bulletin 47, 1912. Paula Einaudi's U. of > Colorado dissertation from about '74 is based on D&S and is a good > starting place for further work. The Smithsonian has Dorsey's original > Biloxi field notes which may contain additional information. > [Kaufman] Can the dictionary be special ordered perhaps through Borders > or Amazon.com? A very viable approach with BAE stuff is to xerox them! > [K] May I request a copy of Einaudi's dissertation from U of Colorado by > phone or email to be sent to me? The usual mode of distribution for dissertations is to order them from University Microfilms International. Apparently they are still back to being called that. http://www.il.proquest.com/umi/dissertations/ The best way to do that may be to go to your local reference department and ask how that is done these days. You used to have to look up the ordering codes in Dissertations Abstracts International, which used to occupy shelves and shelves. I suspect there is now a Web interface. Fofr recent dissertaitons you can often get the code from the SSILA site, I think. > [K] Whom would I contact at the Smithsonian to get copies of Dorsey's > field notes? You would write to the SI's National Anthropological Archives or check their web site: http://www.nmnh.si.edu/naa/ From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Oct 12 05:22:31 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 23:22:31 -0600 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: <20041010185829.85551.qmail@web53805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Oct 2004, David Kaufman wrote: > I would imagine documenting an "extinct" language has its own problems, > since there are no longer native speakers left with which to confirm > data. The operative phrase is hapax legomenon. Learn to love it. > But I suppose it also has its advantages in that one doesn't have to go > through the long and difficult process of establishing rapports with > native speakers and become involved in tribal politics which I've heard > sometimes happens in field work. The extinction of the Biloxi langauge shouldn't be confused with the extinction of the Biloxi people. They're still around, if consolidated with other groups. http://www.tunica.org/ http://users.aol.com/donh523/navapage/tunica.htm http://www.nsula.edu/folklife/database/cultures/NativeAmer/TunicaBiloxi.html http://www.eda.gov/ImageCache/EDAPublic/documents/pdfdocs/20louisiana_2epdf/v1/20louisiana.pdf That's just a sample of what you get by googling "biloxi tribe." It doesn't deal with any remants in Texas, etc. From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 12 06:51:19 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 23:51:19 -0700 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --The extinction of the Biloxi langauge shouldn't be confused with the extinction of the Biloxi people. They're still around, if consolidated with other groups.-- I googled the web and found the info on Tunica-Biloxi. I wonder, if there's still a sizeable community of descendants, if they'd be interested in a language revitalization program at some point in the future, once the language has been adequately documented.... I saw in another email that it's suggested that knowledge of Muskogean helps with Biloxi. But Muskogean of course is a different family. Is this because of close proximity and influence, such as the case with Latin Rumanian and its Baltic/Slavic influences due its closer geographic proximity to these non-Latin languages? Thanks for the info! Dave Koontz John E wrote: On Sun, 10 Oct 2004, David Kaufman wrote: > I would imagine documenting an "extinct" language has its own problems, > since there are no longer native speakers left with which to confirm > data. The operative phrase is hapax legomenon. Learn to love it. > But I suppose it also has its advantages in that one doesn't have to go > through the long and difficult process of establishing rapports with > native speakers and become involved in tribal politics which I've heard > sometimes happens in field work. The extinction of the Biloxi langauge shouldn't be confused with the extinction of the Biloxi people. They're still around, if consolidated with other groups. http://www.tunica.org/ http://users.aol.com/donh523/navapage/tunica.htm http://www.nsula.edu/folklife/database/cultures/NativeAmer/TunicaBiloxi.html http://www.eda.gov/ImageCache/EDAPublic/documents/pdfdocs/20louisiana_2epdf/v1/20louisiana.pdf That's just a sample of what you get by googling "biloxi tribe." It doesn't deal with any remants in Texas, etc. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ahartley at d.umn.edu Tue Oct 12 13:44:32 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 08:44:32 -0500 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > On Sun, 10 Oct 2004, David Kaufman wrote: > >>I would imagine documenting an "extinct" language has its own problems, >>since there are no longer native speakers left with which to confirm >>data. > > > The operative phrase is hapax legomenon. Well, by a stretch, maybe. A hapax legomenon is a word or phrase that appears only once in the record (i.e., 'once' meaning 'one time only,' not 'at some time in the past'). For example: APNEUMATIC Of or pertaining to the non-existence of soul or spirit; non-spiritual, e.g., "The apneumatic theory of Dr. Rogers." Many words, of course, deserve their hapax status. Alan From rankin at ku.edu Tue Oct 12 16:05:55 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 11:05:55 -0500 Subject: Biloxi update Message-ID: The Biloxis had a fellow named Day who is an archaeologist/anthropologist working for them for awhile. I don't believe he's there any longer, but he phoned me once and asked for copies of what I'd written and I sent him some things. They may be in the possession of the Tunica-Biloxi tribe or Dr. Day himself. Language retention is one thing. Language revival is quite another. Be very careful about making promises (or things people might perceive as promises even if you don't) that can't be kept. About all you could do is provide some reference and maybe a few learning materials. The rest is up to them, and when people find out just how hard it is to master a language they know nothing about, very, very, very few of them have the time, patience and motivation to follow through (after all, most of them have to put food on the table!). Then some of them will start looking around for someone to "blame" for the general lack of success of the program, and guess who they'll turn to. . . . This doesn't mean linguists shouldn't try: it justs means you need to be very careful about what you claim or even suggest can be done. There are "action linguists" who make a reputation going around the country giving pep talks to tribes about language revival. "You can do it if you just have the will!!" is the message. But then they leave town and YOU get to take it in the ear if people don't have the 6 hours a day to put into language study, and coming in for a couple of hours every Wednesday night somehow doesn't do the trick. Sorry to sound like such a curmudgeon, but the success rate of the revival programs isn't impressive so far. We all try to do our best, but some of us don't have a clear idea of the possible. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Kaufman" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 1:51 AM Subject: Re: Biloxi update > --The extinction of the Biloxi langauge shouldn't be confused with the > extinction of the Biloxi people. They're still around, if consolidated > with other groups.-- I googled the web and found the info on Tunica-Biloxi. I wonder, if there's still a sizeable community of descendants, if they'd be interested in a language revitalization program at some point in the future, once the language has been adequately documented.... > > I saw in another email that it's suggested that knowledge of Muskogean helps with Biloxi. But Muskogean of course is a different family. Is this because of close proximity and influence, such as the case with Latin Rumanian and its Baltic/Slavic influences due its closer geographic proximity to these non-Latin languages? > > Thanks for the info! > > Dave > > > Koontz John E wrote: > On Sun, 10 Oct 2004, David Kaufman wrote: > > I would imagine documenting an "extinct" language has its own problems, > > since there are no longer native speakers left with which to confirm > > data. > > The operative phrase is hapax legomenon. Learn to love it. > > > But I suppose it also has its advantages in that one doesn't have to go > > through the long and difficult process of establishing rapports with > > native speakers and become involved in tribal politics which I've heard > > sometimes happens in field work. > > The extinction of the Biloxi langauge shouldn't be confused with the > extinction of the Biloxi people. They're still around, if consolidated > with other groups. > > http://www.tunica.org/ > http://users.aol.com/donh523/navapage/tunica.htm > http://www.nsula.edu/folklife/database/cultures/NativeAmer/TunicaBiloxi.html > http://www.eda.gov/ImageCache/EDAPublic/documents/pdfdocs/20louisiana_2epdf/v1/20louisiana.pdf > > That's just a sample of what you get by googling "biloxi tribe." It > doesn't deal with any remants in Texas, etc. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Oct 12 16:52:27 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 10:52:27 -0600 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: <416BDFC0.4060200@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > > The operative phrase is hapax legomenon. > > Well, by a stretch, maybe. A hapax legomenon is a word or phrase that > appears only once in the record (i.e., 'once' meaning 'one time only,' > not 'at some time in the past'). That's what I meant. Things that appear once in the texts. If they are puzzling - they aren't always - you have the problem that you can't get additional examples to work them out. There are other issues, too of course. For example, even multiple examples are not enough sometimes, if they are all the same, or inadequate in some other way. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Oct 12 16:49:40 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 18:49:40 +0200 Subject: biloxi update Message-ID: > I saw in another email that it's suggested that knowledge of Muskogean helps with Biloxi. But Muskogean of course is a different family. Is this because of close proximity and influence, such as the case with Latin Rumanian and its Baltic/Slavic influences due its closer geographic proximity to these non-Latin languages?<< Baltic/Slavic influences?? Would you plz enlighten me about the Baltic influence since I only know about the vast influence of Slavic (among others)? Romanian is widely influenced by Slavic (e.g. dragoste, duh, vinovat/nevinovat, sticl?, nevast?) Turkish (e.g. tutun, bucluc, rahat, musafir, ciorap, geamantan, halat) German (e.g. s,naid?r, s,rub, cheln?r, gr?din?, cartof, granit,?) Hungarian (e.g. pahar, hot?rit(?), vam?, porunci, cr?ciun) French (e.g. etaj, butoi) etc. BTW, the Siouan archive is still unaccessible (tried it from several links and with three different browsers). I don't think that a firewall or the like can be the culprit. It looks like smth is wrong with the server there. Alfred From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Oct 12 17:03:49 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 11:03:49 -0600 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: <20041012065119.38342.qmail@web53805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, David Kaufman wrote: > I saw in another email [from Koontz] that it's suggested that knowledge > of Muskogean helps with Biloxi. But Muskogean of course is a different > family. Is this because of close proximity and influence, ... Without getting into the rest, the answer up to this point is yes. That is, there are influences, loans, etc., that are presumably due to close proximity. In regard to the earlier question on divergence, I'd say that all three Southeastern languages are obviously Siouan though rather divergent. Tutelo strikes me as more typically Siouan, but this is a fuzzy sort of judgement. In some ways Dakota is rather atypical, for example, contradiction in terms as that may seem. In contrast, Catawba and Woccon don't seem Siouan at all, but are related to Siouan by systematic cognates. The term Siouan-Catawban (or Catawban-Siouan) seems appropriate. From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Tue Oct 12 17:05:31 2004 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark-Awakuni Swetland) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:05:31 -0500 Subject: retention, revival, and promises real or imagined Message-ID: Aloha All, I just wanted to echo Bob's comments about retention and revival. It is very easy to be perceived as making promises to pull some sort of reinvigorated language out of the hat. Many community members have a strong desire to see the language reborn... but like Bob said, they don't have the time/energy/commitment/fill in the blank___ whatever it takes, to make it happen. mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Rankin" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 11:05 AM Subject: Re: Biloxi update > Language retention is one thing. Language revival is quite another. Be very careful about making promises (or things people might perceive as promises even if you don't) that can't be kept. . . . This doesn't mean linguists shouldn't try: it justs means you need to be very careful about what you claim or even suggest can be done. > Bob > From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 12 16:51:51 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:51:51 -0700 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: <011201c4b075$5bcdc250$11b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Well, clearly it would be up to the members of the tribe or their descendants to do the actual revitalization, depending on how eager they are to reconnect with their cultural and linguistic heritage. As a linguist/instructor, I could give them some learning material, as you say, but I would certainly not guarantee or promise them anything. And, if they decided they didn't want to revitalize their language or culture, that's also their choice. We can't "force" them to do anything, nor should we! Thanks for the input. Dave "R. Rankin" wrote: The Biloxis had a fellow named Day who is an archaeologist/anthropologist working for them for awhile. I don't believe he's there any longer, but he phoned me once and asked for copies of what I'd written and I sent him some things. They may be in the possession of the Tunica-Biloxi tribe or Dr. Day himself. Language retention is one thing. Language revival is quite another. Be very careful about making promises (or things people might perceive as promises even if you don't) that can't be kept. About all you could do is provide some reference and maybe a few learning materials. The rest is up to them, and when people find out just how hard it is to master a language they know nothing about, very, very, very few of them have the time, patience and motivation to follow through (after all, most of them have to put food on the table!). Then some of them will start looking around for someone to "blame" for the general lack of success of the program, and guess who they'll turn to. . . . This doesn't mean linguists shouldn't try: it justs means you need to be very careful about what you claim or even suggest can be done. There are "action linguists" who make a reputation going around the country giving pep talks to tribes about language revival. "You can do it if you just have the will!!" is the message. But then they leave town and YOU get to take it in the ear if people don't have the 6 hours a day to put into language study, and coming in for a couple of hours every Wednesday night somehow doesn't do the trick. Sorry to sound like such a curmudgeon, but the success rate of the revival programs isn't impressive so far. We all try to do our best, but some of us don't have a clear idea of the possible. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Kaufman" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 1:51 AM Subject: Re: Biloxi update > --The extinction of the Biloxi langauge shouldn't be confused with the > extinction of the Biloxi people. They're still around, if consolidated > with other groups.-- I googled the web and found the info on Tunica-Biloxi. I wonder, if there's still a sizeable community of descendants, if they'd be interested in a language revitalization program at some point in the future, once the language has been adequately documented.... > > I saw in another email that it's suggested that knowledge of Muskogean helps with Biloxi. But Muskogean of course is a different family. Is this because of close proximity and influence, such as the case with Latin Rumanian and its Baltic/Slavic influences due its closer geographic proximity to these non-Latin languages? > > Thanks for the info! > > Dave > > > Koontz John E wrote: > On Sun, 10 Oct 2004, David Kaufman wrote: > > I would imagine documenting an "extinct" language has its own problems, > > since there are no longer native speakers left with which to confirm > > data. > > The operative phrase is hapax legomenon. Learn to love it. > > > But I suppose it also has its advantages in that one doesn't have to go > > through the long and difficult process of establishing rapports with > > native speakers and become involved in tribal politics which I've heard > > sometimes happens in field work. > > The extinction of the Biloxi langauge shouldn't be confused with the > extinction of the Biloxi people. They're still around, if consolidated > with other groups. > > http://www.tunica.org/ > http://users.aol.com/donh523/navapage/tunica.htm > http://www.nsula.edu/folklife/database/cultures/NativeAmer/TunicaBiloxi.html > http://www.eda.gov/ImageCache/EDAPublic/documents/pdfdocs/20louisiana_2epdf/v1/20louisiana.pdf > > That's just a sample of what you get by googling "biloxi tribe." It > doesn't deal with any remants in Texas, etc. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Oct 12 18:10:59 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:10:59 -0500 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164E4D@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: > I'm also wondering if, since Biloxi is the farthest afield of the Siouan languages, it is also the most divergent? I know in the case of Cherokee it became the most divergent of the Iroquois family because of its fairly early shift farther south. Wonder if the same is true of Biloxi in the Siouan family. It'll be interesting to compare Hidatsa, in the far north, with Biloxi, in the far south, to see how much these two Siouan languages have diverged. My sense of this agrees with Bob's. About 10 or 15 years ago, before I had actually tried to learn any Siouan languages, and before I had come up with a method of fiddling with straight glottochronology results by calibrating them on Indo-European languages, I tried doing a Siouan glottochronology. I obtained (uneven) sources for six Siouan languages, including a Lakhota dictionary; the Stabler-Swetland dictionary of Omaha; La Flesche's Osage dictionary; an old Hidatsa dictionary and grammar; Einaudi's Grammar of Biloxi; and two little pamphlet booklets on Iowa-Oto. I counted only the cases between any two languages where I could find words with matching definitions, and if any pair looked conceivably cognate I called it a match. I recall that my results put Omaha and Osage very close together, perhaps splitting about 1400-1600 AD; Dhegiha and Iowa-Oto next closest, perhaps splitting about 800-900 AD; and Lakhota very close to this, perhaps splitting about 700-800 AD. (This would have been MVS, which I now believe to have split a good deal earlier.) Biloxi was more divergent, apparently splitting off about 500 BC. Hidatsa was by far the most dissimilar; my estimate at that time put its split at about 3000 BC. Rory From tmleonard at cox.net Tue Oct 12 18:00:49 2004 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:00:49 -0500 Subject: Ethnographic Bibliography of North America Message-ID: Does anyone have access to the latest version of Murdock's Ethnographic Bibliography of North America (I believe it is now called "Bibliography of Native North Americans")? I'd like to get an update from this bibliography for the ethnic groups "Ponca", "Osage", "Omaha", "Kaw", and "Quapaw". My Xerox copies are over 20 years old and, back then, they didn't include masters theses and doctoral dissertations. For that simple run it seems crazy to sign up for a subscription to Ovid.com or something similar. Anyone know of an internet site that would gives free access to the Bibliography? Or, does anyone on list have access that could make a run for me (he says beggingly)? Thanks, Tom Leonard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 12 18:32:46 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 11:32:46 -0700 Subject: biloxi update In-Reply-To: <416C0B24.5060501@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: Sorry! I actually meant Balkan influence! I'm not an expert on Rumanian, but what I've studied I know that there are Greek-Balkan influences in the grammar. Such as the lack of a "true" infinitive form as still exists in other Latin languages, a trait shared by Modern Greek. Dave "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: > I saw in another email that it's suggested that knowledge of Muskogean helps with Biloxi. But Muskogean of course is a different family. Is this because of close proximity and influence, such as the case with Latin Rumanian and its Baltic/Slavic influences due its closer geographic proximity to these non-Latin languages?<< Baltic/Slavic influences?? Would you plz enlighten me about the Baltic influence since I only know about the vast influence of Slavic (among others)? Romanian is widely influenced by Slavic (e.g. dragoste, duh, vinovat/nevinovat, sticl?, nevast?) Turkish (e.g. tutun, bucluc, rahat, musafir, ciorap, geamantan, halat) German (e.g. s,naid?r, s,rub, cheln?r, gr?din?, cartof, granit,?) Hungarian (e.g. pahar, hot?rit(?), vam?, porunci, cr?ciun) French (e.g. etaj, butoi) etc. BTW, the Siouan archive is still unaccessible (tried it from several links and with three different browsers). I don't think that a firewall or the like can be the culprit. It looks like smth is wrong with the server there. Alfred --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Oct 12 20:46:29 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 15:46:29 -0500 Subject: biloxi update Message-ID: > Baltic/Slavic influences?? He means "Balkan". Bob From rankin at ku.edu Tue Oct 12 21:26:05 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 16:26:05 -0500 Subject: Biloxi update Message-ID: > Well, clearly it would be up to the members of the tribe or their descendants to do the actual revitalization, . . . That's my point though. It ISN'T "clear". Not to ordinary citizens, Indian People or not, who have never looked at language scientifically or even from a naive learner's point of view. When we, as high mucketymuck linguists from a big university go to a community to study their language, like it or not, the community looks upon *us* as the "experts". And whatever pops out of our mouth in our most relaxed moments can be taken as some kind of eternal truth. It's true that the Army can take an 18 year old right off the turnip truck and turn him into a reasonably fluent speaker of virtually any language in a few months. But ooooh what he has to go through to get from here to there. Nobody's criticising your goals or hopes. It's just that "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king". We are the one-eyed "doctors" and our diagnosis will be taken seriously, right or wrong. > depending on how eager they are to reconnect with their cultural and linguistic heritage. It often works out that there is indeed a variety of different goals in a community. People are often very happy if you can offer, say, an accessible version of an older prayer or invocation they can memorize to use at dinners, council meetings, pow wows or other events. We just need to be mindful of what's do-able within the constraints of each individual community. Bob From rwd0002 at unt.edu Tue Oct 12 21:53:55 2004 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 16:53:55 -0500 Subject: Biloxi update In-Reply-To: <011201c4b075$5bcdc250$11b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Quoting "R. Rankin" : > The Biloxis had a fellow named Day who is an archaeologist/anthropologist > working for them for awhile. I don't believe he's there any longer, but he > phoned me once and asked for copies of what I'd written and I sent him some > things. They may be in the possession of the Tunica-Biloxi tribe or Dr. Day > himself. > > Language retention is one thing. Language revival is quite another. Be > very > careful about making promises (or things people might perceive as promises > even > if you don't) that can't be kept. About all you could do is provide some > reference and maybe a few learning materials. The rest is up to them, and > when > people find out just how hard it is to master a language they know nothing > about, very, very, very few of them have the time, patience and motivation > to > follow through (after all, most of them have to put food on the table!). > Then > some of them will start looking around for someone to "blame" for the > general > lack of success of the program, and guess who they'll turn to. . . . This > doesn't mean linguists shouldn't try: it justs means you need to be very > careful > about what you claim or even suggest can be done. There are "action > linguists" > who make a reputation going around the country giving pep talks to tribes > about > language revival. "You can do it if you just have the will!!" is the > message. > But then they leave town and YOU get to take it in the ear if people don't > have > the 6 hours a day to put into language study, and coming in for a couple of > hours every Wednesday night somehow doesn't do the trick. > > Sorry to sound like such a curmudgeon, but the success rate of the revival > programs isn't impressive so far. We all try to do our best, but some of us > don't have a clear idea of the possible. > > Bob I must agree with Bob on this. I have been thinking about this language resuscitation business myself. Another unpleasant consequence is that sooner or later you're asked to complete or add to the language, you are asked to Esperantize, so to speak. As for artificial languages, this can get tricky if two different scholars are doing it. This seems to be a problem with the relatively successful revival of Cornish (Celtic language without native speakers since beginning of the 19th century), where there are two camps arguing on how it should be done, and writing unpleasant things on the internet about each other. If I was asked, I'd say yes, but it would be similar to teaching kids how to read Cesar or Cicero in the original Latin in order to learn more about Western Culture. It would be nice to have children of Biloxi descent being interested in learning to read the Biloxi texts. Anything more might be promising too much. Same of course would work even better with Tunica, because we have a superb grammar, texts, and dictionary by Mary Haas. Willem From rankin at ku.edu Tue Oct 12 22:25:02 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 17:25:02 -0500 Subject: lessons Message-ID: > Another unpleasant consequence is that sooner or later you're asked to complete or add to the language, . . . this can get tricky if two different scholars are doing it. I guess there are some advantages to being the *only* scholar working on the languages I am. :-) That makes my word the "law". Seriously though, the creation of modern vocabulary for things like computers, cellphones, satellites, planes, etc. is an area in which students often enjoy working. Here is where I've actually been able to see some genuine interest in derivational morphology, notably the instrumental prefixes. If 'automobile' was already "something that runs by pressing", then a computer could be "something that runs by striking" with the ga- prefix. Younger people can actually get fired up about derivation this way. Whatever works. . . . Bob From munro at ucla.edu Wed Oct 13 04:48:57 2004 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 21:48:57 -0700 Subject: position for Iroquoianist Message-ID: I've been asked to announce a potential job opening for an Iroquoianist. This is a 6-9 month position with a possibility of renewal in the Cherokee Studies Program at Western Carolina University. I know there are people who work on Iroquoian who read this list, and others who may know people who work on Cherokee and other Iroquoian languagaes -- please pass this on! If you are interested, please contact Carrie McLachlan Cherokee Studies McKee 105C Western Carolina University Cullowhee, NC 28723 828-227-2303 mclachlan at email.wcu.edu Thanks! Pam Munro -- Pamela Munro, Professor, Linguistics, UCLA UCLA Box 951543 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/munro/munro.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Wed Oct 13 05:12:26 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 07:12:26 +0200 Subject: biloxi update Message-ID: > (Dave) Sorry! I actually meant Balkan influence! I'm not an expert on Rumanian, but what I've studied I know that there are Greek-Balkan influences in the grammar. Such as the lack of a "true" infinitive form as still exists in other Latin languages, a trait shared by Modern Greek. << Sorry too for my being dim-witted :( Yes, this shared (syntactical) feature seems to be the base for speaking of "Balkan-type" languages (such as Greek, Romanian, Bulgarian, Serbo-Croatian - sorry for making them one language ;) -, Albanian, but not Hungarian!), e.g. Rom.: "vreau s? c?nt" vs. e.g. Ital.: "vorrei cantare"). Yet, are there still others?? (Sorry for this OT) Alfred From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 13 06:02:27 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:02:27 -0700 Subject: position for Iroquoianist In-Reply-To: <416CB3B9.30302@ucla.edu> Message-ID: I couldn't do this right now, but it's nice to see this! As I have said before, if there are other Iroquoianists, and particularly Cherokeeists (?!), who read this list, I'd like to hear from them as I'm also a Tsalagi aficionado, and I'm constantly trying to analyze and learn it with limited materials and resources, and no native speakers. It'd be great to have someone to correspond with about Tsalagi! Thanks, Pam. Dave Kaufman dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Pamela Munro wrote: I've been asked to announce a potential job opening for an Iroquoianist. This is a 6-9 month position with a possibility of renewal in the Cherokee Studies Program at Western Carolina University. I know there are people who work on Iroquoian who read this list, and others who may know people who work on Cherokee and other Iroquoian languagaes -- please pass this on! If you are interested, please contact Carrie McLachlan Cherokee Studies McKee 105C Western Carolina University Cullowhee, NC 28723 828-227-2303 mclachlan at email.wcu.edu Thanks! Pam Munro -- Pamela Munro,Professor, Linguistics, UCLAUCLA Box 951543Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/munro/munro.htm --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Wed Oct 13 10:37:53 2004 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Q.) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 05:37:53 -0500 Subject: Ethnographic Bibliography of North America In-Reply-To: <000f01c4b085$6818a100$fef60d44@tu.ok.cox.net> Message-ID: Hi Tom, I don?t have the access you?re looking for, but would be interested in anything you find on ?Osage?. Nice to hear from you on this list. Thanks, Carolyn Quintero -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of Tom Leonard Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 1:01 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Ethnographic Bibliography of North America Does anyone have access to the latest version of Murdock's Ethnographic Bibliography of North America (I believe it is now called "Bibliography of Native North Americans")? I'd like to get an update from this bibliography for the ethnic groups "Ponca", "Osage", "Omaha", "Kaw", and "Quapaw". My Xerox copies are over 20 years old and, back then, they didn't include masters theses and doctoral dissertations. For that simple run it seems crazy to sign up for a subscription to Ovid.com or something similar. Anyone know of an internet site that would gives free access to the Bibliography? Or, does anyone on list have access that could make a run for me (he says beggingly)? Thanks, Tom Leonard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 13 18:06:03 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:06:03 -0700 Subject: biloxi update In-Reply-To: <416CB93A.2020801@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: --Rom.: "vreau s? c?nt"-- exactly like Mod Greek "I want I sing" = I want to sing. The only other similarity and possible influence I can think of off-hand is that both Bulgarian and Rumanian have post-posed definite articles, e.g. Bulg. cveteto (-to) and Rum. calul (-ul), although this trait isn't shared by Greek; I don't know about other Balkan languages. This is of course the opposite of other Mod Latin languages which have the article before the noun. This discussion of infinitives or lack thereof leads me to a Siouan question: I know in Cherokee, from what I know so far, there is an actual infinitive form of the verb. But it seems to me that Hidatsa does not have an infinitive form, and I believe that the third person "unmarked" form of the verb is considered the "neutral" or dictionary form. (John B., please correct if I'm wrong.) Do other Siouan languages have infinitives, or do they simply have the "unmarked" form of verbs like Hidatsa? Dave "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: > (Dave) Sorry! I actually meant Balkan influence! I'm not an expert on Rumanian, but what I've studied I know that there are Greek-Balkan influences in the grammar. Such as the lack of a "true" infinitive form as still exists in other Latin languages, a trait shared by Modern Greek. << Sorry too for my being dim-witted :( Yes, this shared (syntactical) feature seems to be the base for speaking of "Balkan-type" languages (such as Greek, Romanian, Bulgarian, Serbo-Croatian - sorry for making them one language ;) -, Albanian, but not Hungarian!), e.g. Rom.: "vreau s? c?nt" vs. e.g. Ital.: "vorrei cantare"). Yet, are there still others?? (Sorry for this OT) Alfred --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Oct 13 19:39:47 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:39:47 -0500 Subject: biloxi update Message-ID: --Rom.: "vreau sc cbnt"-- exactly like Mod Greek "I want I sing" = I want to sing. > The only other similarity and possible influence I can think of off-hand is that both Bulgarian and Rumanian have post-posed definite articles, e.g. Bulg. cveteto (-to) and Rum. calul (-ul), although this trait isn't shared by Greek; I don't know about other Balkan languages. This is of course the opposite of other Mod Latin languages which have the article before the noun. [RLR: ] Yeah, Macedonian, Albanian and the Torlakian dialects of Serbian. Also Aromanian, Istroromanian and Meglenoromanian. This discussion of infinitives or lack thereof leads me to a Siouan question: I know in Cherokee, from what I know so far, there is an actual infinitive form of the verb. But it seems to me that Hidatsa does not have an infinitive form, and I believe that the third person "unmarked" form of the verb is considered the "neutral" or dictionary form. (John B., please correct if I'm wrong.) Do other Siouan languages have infinitives, or do they simply have the "unmarked" form of verbs like Hidatsa? [RLR: ] No, other Siouan languges typically cite the (unmarked) 3rd sg of the verb. In Dakotan apparently some speakers cite the -e grade of "Ablaut" and others cite the -a grade. I think I heard that from David, but I'm not expert on Dakotan. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Oct 13 19:57:33 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 13:57:33 -0600 Subject: Siouan Infinitives In-Reply-To: <20041013180603.86351.qmail@web53803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Oct 2004, David Kaufman wrote: > This discussion of infinitives or lack thereof leads me to a Siouan > question: I know in Cherokee, from what I know so far, there is an > actual infinitive form of the verb. But it seems to me that Hidatsa > does not have an infinitive form, and I believe that the third person > "unmarked" form of the verb is considered the "neutral" or dictionary > form. (John B., please correct if I'm wrong.) Do other Siouan > languages have infinitives, or do they simply have the "unmarked" form > of verbs like Hidatsa? I don't believe any of the Siouan languages have a specific nominalized form, infinitive or otherwise. A possible exception to this would be the *aru- and *awu- (not sure I have this right!) forms in Crow-Hidatsa and their agnate forms in Mandan. Perhaps these can receive inflection? Apart from this, however, it appears that different ablaut grades are preferred for citation form than for third person singular in some languages: - I think a-grade is preferred for citation forms in Dakotan. I'm not convinced I understand the rules or conventions behind this, however. - Randy Graczyk has pointed out that the ablaut grade of the citation form of various Crow verbs can differ from the ablaut-grade of predicative forms. - Something incipiently like this occurs in Dhegiha where third person singular proximate takes the a-grade (and the plural marker), but citation forms usually take the e-grade. I believe this is more or less a nominalized form, or, to be more precise I believe that there is a tendency for obviative forms to occur more often in nominalized clauses than in main clauses. I don't know what the precise conditioning is. If anyone has worked this out, I'd be delighted to hear about it! I have also seen pairs of male and female imperatives used as citation forms in some cases in the Swetland "UmoNhoN Iye of Elizabeth Stabler" for Omaha, and they are all a-grades. From mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu Wed Oct 13 21:59:59 2004 From: mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Marianne Mithun) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:59:59 -0700 Subject: Job at Santa Barbara Message-ID: Assistant Professor, Computational/Corpus Linguistics The Linguistics Department of the University of California, Santa Barbara seeks to hire a specialist in computational and/or corpus linguistic approaches to language. The appointment will be tenure-track at the Assistant Professor level, effective July 1, 2005. We are especially interested in candidates whose research shows theoretical implications bridging computational and/or corpus linguistics and general linguistics, and who can interact with colleagues and students across disciplinary boundaries at UCSB. Candidates will be preferred whose research engages with the departmental focus on functional and usage-based approaches to explaining language. Research experience with corpora of naturally occurring language use is required. Candidates must have demonstrated excellence in teaching, and will be expected to teach a range of graduate and undergraduate courses in both computational/corpus linguistics and general linguistics. Ph.D. in linguistics or a related field such as cognitive science or computer science is required. Ph.D. normally required by the time of appointment. Applicants should submit hard copy of curriculum vitae, statement of research interests, 1-2 writing samples, and full contact information for three academic references to the Search Committee, Linguistics Department, UCSB, Santa Barbara, CA 93106-3100. Fax and email applications not accepted. Inquiries may be addressed to the above address or via email to lingsearch at linguistics.ucsb.edu. Tentative deadline is November 12, 2004. However, the position will remain open until filled. Preliminary interviews will be conducted at the Linguistic Society of America, although attendance is not required for consideration. The department is especially interested in candidates who can contribute to the diversity and excellence of the academic community through research, teaching and service. UCSB is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action employer. Address for Applications: Attn: Search Committee Dana Spoonerow University of California, Santa Barbara, Linguistics Department 3607 South Hall Santa Barbara, CA 93016 United States of America Applications are due by 12-Nov-2004 Contact Information: Professor Cumming Email: lingsearch at linguistics.ucsb.edu Tel: 805-893-7241 Fax: 805-893-7769 Website: http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Oct 13 23:07:50 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 18:07:50 -0500 Subject: Siouan Infinitives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John wrote: > - Something incipiently like this occurs in Dhegiha where third person > singular proximate takes the a-grade (and the plural marker), but citation > forms usually take the e-grade. I believe this is more or less a > nominalized form, or, to be more precise I believe that there is a > tendency for obviative forms to occur more often in nominalized clauses > than in main clauses. I don't know what the precise conditioning is. If > anyone has worked this out, I'd be delighted to hear about it! Just to get some concrete examples going here, do you mean the difference between things like: Dhiza' (i). He took/is taking/takes it. and Dhize' tHe u'udaN ta akH(a). take nom. good future-by-someone-else's-choice Hopefully he will take it. ? Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Oct 14 03:32:51 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 21:32:51 -0600 Subject: Siouan Infinitives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Oct 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > Just to get some concrete examples going here, do you mean > the difference between things like: > > Dhiza' (i). > He took/is taking/takes it. > > and > > Dhize' tHe u'udaN ta akH(a). > take nom. good future-by-someone-else's-choice > Hopefully he will take it. Yes, thanks, that would be one kind of example. Or Ki MoNshchiN'ge=akHa ikoN'=akHa zhu'gigtha=bi=ama And Rabbit the grmo the he was with his own vs. MoNshchiN'ge ikoN'=thiNkHe zhu'gigthe ahi'=bi=ama Rabbit grmo the he with his own he arrived Also maybe ibisoNde xi'tha=akHa e moNghe ibisoNde ata= xti eagles the those sky pressed against far away very And compound nouns like moNzune'dhe 'stove' And nominalized nouns like wasa'be 'blackbear' Further afield, I think sometimes the verb in relative clases is in the e-grade, though this is certainly usually not the case. I don't happen to have any examples in hand, however. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Thu Oct 14 07:13:58 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 09:13:58 +0200 Subject: biloxi update Message-ID: > (Dave) The only other similarity and possible influence I can think of off-hand is that both Bulgarian and Rumanian have post-posed definite articles, e.g. Bulg. cveteto (-to) and Rum. calul (-ul), although this trait isn't shared by Greek; I don't know about other Balkan languages. This is of course the opposite of other Mod Latin languages which have the article before the noun. << My guess is that the Balkan substrate (Dacian?) might have had this feature (of post-posed definite articles) and some languages (like Latin) were 'open' to it (homo ille vs. ille homo -> omul - l'uomo, l'homme) but others were not. Yet, this doesn't work well for Slavic tongues (cf. Bulgarian!). BTW, the different uses of ablaut/non-ablaut verb forms in e.g. Dakota still seems really puzzling to me. Alfred From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Oct 14 13:28:49 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 08:28:49 -0500 Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) In-Reply-To: <416E2736.7060708@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: >> (Dave) The only other similarity and possible influence I can think of off-hand is that both Bulgarian and Rumanian have post-posed definite articles, e.g. Bulg. cveteto (-to) and Rum. calul (-ul), although this trait isn't shared by Greek; I don't know about other Balkan languages. This is of course the opposite of other Mod Latin languages which have the article before the noun. << > (Alfred) My guess is that the Balkan substrate (Dacian?) might have had this > feature (of post-posed definite articles) and some languages (like > Latin) were 'open' to it (homo ille vs. ille homo -> omul - l'uomo, > l'homme) but others were not. Yet, this doesn't work well for Slavic > tongues (cf. Bulgarian!). Swedish, and I suppose Norwegian and Danish, have post-posed definite articles too. What about Gothic? Rory From rankin at ku.edu Thu Oct 14 14:06:33 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 09:06:33 -0500 Subject: Jobs at Kansas Message-ID: The Linguistics Dept. here at KU has two openings. One is in the area of applied linguistics and language teaching (with qualifications in some language family). The other is in Cognitive Science. I do not have direct access to the specific job descriptions so I cannot post them here right now. They should be posted on Linguist List however (if they aren't, do let me know). Bob From rankin at ku.edu Thu Oct 14 14:19:51 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 09:19:51 -0500 Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) Message-ID: > Swedish, and I suppose Norwegian and Danish, have post-posed definite > articles too. >>From the point of view of usual head/dependent orderings, virtually ALL European languages should have postposed definite articles and demonstratives just as they do adjectives. But among SVO languages especially there are lots of exceptions to the "usual". You have a couple of crusty old (well only one is crusty and old) Balkanists on this lists and I'm waiting for Catherine to check in. :-) Bob From BARudes at aol.com Thu Oct 14 14:43:03 2004 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:43:03 EDT Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) Message-ID: Actually, you can also add me to the list of crusty (and more or less old) Balkanists on the list. I have held off comment because the facts of the Balkan linguistic area are really quite complicated and not easily summarized in emails. Two of the features have already been mentioned: (1) the use of subordinate clauses in place of infinitives and (2) the post-posed article. On the phonological side, features include the the shift of the vowel /a/ to schwa (and later, in Romanian, to barred-i) before /n/ and the tendancy for velar stops to become labials before /t/ and /s/. There are also a variety of shared lexical items and idioms. The "hard-core" members of the Balkan linguistic area are Daco-Romanian (i.e. standard Romanian), Istro-Romanian, Macedo-Romanian, Megleno-Romanian, Aromanian, and Albanian (Geg and Tosk). The Slavic languages in the area show fewer of the features, presumably because they were relative late comers. (Note that Bulgaria is called Bulgaria because the language spoken there before modern Bulgarian was Bulgar, a Turkic language, and Macedonia is named after the Macedonian people (Philip and Alexander the Great's folks), who spoke an Indo-European language that was not Slavic). Greek shows fewer of the features presumably because it is on the periphery of the area. The generally held hypothesis is that the Balkan features arose due to substratum influence from Dacian, Thracian, or Illyrian (more likely Thracian, since both Romanian and Albanian show all the traits); however, there is so little material available on these languages that no one knows for sure. The Balkan features might just as well have been independent innovations in one or another of these languages that spread to the neighboring languages. In any event, none of the features of the Balkan linguistic area are unique to the area; what makes it a linguistic area is that the set of features is shared to a greater or lesser extent among the languages. Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Thu Oct 14 14:50:05 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 08:50:05 -0600 Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No, Gothic behaves very much like German and Old English in this regard. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 14 Oct 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > > > > >> (Dave) The only other similarity and possible influence I can think of > off-hand > is that both Bulgarian and Rumanian have post-posed definite articles, > e.g. Bulg. cveteto (-to) and Rum. calul (-ul), although this trait isn't > shared by Greek; I don't know about other Balkan languages. This is of > course the opposite of other Mod Latin languages which have the article > before the noun. << > > > > (Alfred) My guess is that the Balkan substrate (Dacian?) might have had > this > > feature (of post-posed definite articles) and some languages (like > > Latin) were 'open' to it (homo ille vs. ille homo -> omul - l'uomo, > > l'homme) but others were not. Yet, this doesn't work well for Slavic > > tongues (cf. Bulgarian!). > > Swedish, and I suppose Norwegian and Danish, have post-posed definite > articles too. What about Gothic? > > Rory > From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Thu Oct 14 15:26:34 2004 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin/HU/AC/WSC) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:26:34 -0500 Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) Message-ID: OK, ok... here I am. (And yes, I'm pretty crusty too. "Geezerly" is the preferred adjective around our house.) Anyhow -- I confess I haven't been reading the whole Biloxi thread (until the intriguing "Balkan" heading popped up) and I'm not going to go back and read it all now, free time and knowledge about Biloxi both being in short supply. How did we get onto postposed articles? Does this have anything to do with the (lack of) infinitives also being bandied about on the list? The Siouan/Balkan sprachbund??? Various Balkan and Scandinavian languages do indeed have postposed articles, but they're syntactically very different from the phrase-final articles (have we agreed to call them articles?) in Dhegiha. At least in the languages I'm most familiar with (Bulgarian/Macedonian/east Serbian dialects) the article appears not at the end of the noun phrase, but suffixed to the FIRST constituent of the phrase. So we have classic Bulgarian examples like: (TA is the article, in caps to make it easily visible) kolaTA 'the car' zelenaTA kola 'the green car' staraTA zelena kola 'the old green car' mojaTA stara zelena kola '(the) my old green car' I said "first constituent" and not "first word" because if the first word is an adverb, the article follows the adjective that adverb modifies, i.e. it is suffixed to the AdjP (roughly... the exact formulation is a matter of hot debate in Balkan Slavicist circles). For example: izvunredno staraTA zelena kola 'the unusually old green car' But in any case the article is suffixed to the first/leftmost piece of the nominal phrase, in some sense. A standard analysis is that the article is syntactically phrase-INITIAL, so the underlying form is something like "TA ... kola", and it "hops" onto the following word through some kind of prosody-driven phonological process, very much like other clitics in these languages (and a variety of "second position" elements in lots of other languages). Demonstratives are also phrase-initial determiners, but not being clitics, they stay initial and don't "hop": TAZI stara zelena kola 'this old green car' / ONAZI stara zelena kola 'that old green car'. Is Romanian the same, Bob? This is obviously nothing like the situation of articles in Dhegiha languages, where they are phrase-FINAL, following the noun and all sorts of modifiers. As for the question of whether determiners in European (SVO) languages "should" be postposed/phrase-final, that depends on whether determiners are modifiers (within NP) or heads (of DP). If determiners head their own projection, you would expect them to be DP-final in OV languages, as they in fact are in Omaha-Ponca and the rest of Dhegiha, and you would expect them to be DP-initial in VO languages, as they in fact are in European languages, including Bulgarian and I think all the other European languages that have "postposed" articles. (Though my Norwegian is just about nil and my Albanian not a whole lot better!) Cheers, Catherine > Swedish, and I suppose Norwegian and Danish, have post-posed definite > articles too. >>From the point of view of usual head/dependent orderings, virtually ALL European languages should have postposed definite articles and demonstratives just as they do adjectives. But among SVO languages especially there are lots of exceptions to the "usual". You have a couple of crusty old (well only one is crusty and old) Balkanists on this lists and I'm waiting for Catherine to check in. :-) Bob From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Thu Oct 14 18:11:38 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 20:11:38 +0200 Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) Message-ID: > (Bob) You have a couple of crusty old (well only one is crusty and old) Balkanists on this lists ... << Well, I'm crusty and old as well, although not a linguist or even Balkanist (but dealing with Balkan tongues since my early days ;) ). > (Catherine) kolaTA 'the car' zelenaTA kola 'the green car' staraTA zelena kola 'the old green car' mojaTA stara zelena kola '(the) my old green car'<< Rom.: mas,ina - the car (mas,in? - car) mas,ina verde or mas,ina cea verde - the green car mas,ina verde cea veche - the old green car or vechea mas,in? verde - (see above) vechea mea mas,in? verde - (the) my old green car mas,ina mea veche cea verde - (see above) Pretty similar to Bulgarian, isn't it? > (David) No, Gothic behaves very much like German and Old English in this regard. << Yes, but what's with Gothic "Atta unsar ?u in himinam..." ? I know that it's not the definite article postposed here (it seems that old Gothic doesn't have a definite article) - but is this like in German "Vater unser" with the possessive pronoun postposed in an 'ungrammatical' way? BTW, how do you judge the Lakota construction "Ateunyanpi mahpiya ekta nanke cin"? Aren't there two sentences: "ateunyan pi" and "(mahpiya ekta) nanke" made a noun with kind of adjectival phrase by the following 'definite article' _kin_? Alfred From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Thu Oct 14 18:31:11 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:31:11 -0600 Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) In-Reply-To: <416EC15A.9030000@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: > > > (David) No, Gothic behaves very much like German and Old English in > this regard. << > > Yes, but what's with Gothic "Atta unsar ?u in himinam..." ? > I know that it's not the definite article postposed here (it seems that > old Gothic doesn't have a definite article) - but is this like in German > "Vater unser" with the possessive pronoun postposed in an > 'ungrammatical' way? My Gothic is very rusty -- haven't looked at it in about 35 years (talk about crusty!). I'm going to guess that this example is imitative of the Latin from which it was likely translated and not typical. > > BTW, how do you judge the Lakota construction "Ateunyanpi mahpiya ekta > nanke cin"? Aren't there two sentences: "ateunyan pi" and "(mahpiya > ekta) nanke" made a noun with kind of adjectival phrase by the following > 'definite article' _kin_? Ate7unyanpi is a nominalized verb; a very ordinary way to say "my father" is atewaye kin. It's the head of a relative clause; the clause is marked by the final "kin". There is no article after "ate7unyanpi" because heads of relative clauses are ALWAYS marked indefinite, even if they're unique, like this one is. At least, that's my analysis. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA From jpboyle at uchicago.edu Thu Oct 14 18:49:44 2004 From: jpboyle at uchicago.edu (John Boyle) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:49:44 -0500 Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > >> >> BTW, how do you judge the Lakota construction "Ateunyanpi mahpiya ekta >> nanke cin"? Aren't there two sentences: "ateunyan pi" and "(mahpiya >> ekta) nanke" made a noun with kind of adjectival phrase by the following >> 'definite article' _kin_? > >Ate7unyanpi is a nominalized verb; a very ordinary way to say "my father" >is atewaye kin. It's the head of a relative clause; the clause is marked >by the final "kin". There is no article after "ate7unyanpi" because heads >of relative clauses are ALWAYS marked indefinite, even if they're unique, >like this one is. At least, that's my analysis. > I think that David's analysis is correct. The head has to be marked as indefinite even if the referent is clearly definite. This is true in all (or most) of the Siouan languages since they all have internally headed relative clauses (IHRCs) (we think). The possibly exception being Hocank. There seems to be a constraint that the head of an IHRC can not be marked as definite. This is what Williamson (1987) calls "The Indefiniteness Constraint". This seems to be the case because of how the heads get interpreted in the semantic component of the grammar. John Boyle From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Oct 14 19:37:23 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 20:37:23 +0100 Subject: Atta unsa Message-ID: Folks: The Gothic translation was mentioned Its author, Wulfila/Ulfilas, was half-Goth and half-Greek (his mother was from Cappadocia, I think) and translated the Bible literally from Greek. The oprning phrase i the Pater Noster in Greek is Pater he:mo:n, which is 'Father of-us'. That got changed into Pater noster in the Latin translation, Faeder U:re in Old English, Vater unser in German, and so on - that is, a quirk in the Latin (which norally has 'Noster Pater') has been perpetuated in this sentence in lots of languages. Even in the Balkan language Kalaidzhi Romani one finds: Dade amare, instead of Amare Dade. I assume it was traslated from a Bulgarian version which had something like Otche nash (at a guess), also father-our. Pater noster is atypical of Latin element order and shouldn't be taken, um, as gospel when it comes to discussing head and modifier order. Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Oct 14 22:59:34 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 16:59:34 -0600 Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) In-Reply-To: <96.1731299e.2e9fea77@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 BARudes at aol.com wrote: > The "hard-core" members of the Balkan linguistic area are Daco-Romanian > (i.e. standard Romanian), Istro-Romanian, Macedo-Romanian, > Megleno-Romanian, Aromanian, and Albanian (Geg and Tosk). The Slavic > languages in the area show fewer of the features, presumably because > they were relative late comers. (Note that Bulgaria is called Bulgaria > because the language spoken there before modern Bulgarian was Bulgar, a > Turkic language, and Macedonia is named after the Macedonian people > (Philip and Alexander the Great's folks), who spoke an Indo-European > language that was not Slavic). Greek shows fewer of the features > presumably because it is on the periphery of the area. The generally > held hypothesis is that the Balkan features arose due to substratum > influence from Dacian, Thracian, or Illyrian (more likely Thracian, > since both Romanian and Albanian show all the traits); however, there is > so little material available on these languages that no one knows for > sure. When you put it this way it occurs to me that the Balkan area coincides more or less with the territory of the mediaeval (Balkan) Bulgar Empire, especially the "second" version, and also with the Balkan section of the Byzantine Empire at its peak, both of which had extensive, interconnected, and literate state and church hierachies. Turkish more or less obliterated the pre-existing languages of the Anatolian or "Eastern" Greek (etc.) section of the Byzantine Empire, and the Byzantine Empire itself recolonized the extensive Slavic intrusions into the area of modern Greece, so the characterization of the "area" as "Balkan" may be more or less accidental. I have the impression that Serbo-Croatian and Macedonian-Bulgarian Slavic dialect groups are fairly closely related, right? But the latter more or less participates in the area, while the former doesn't? It appears that you generally get angry disapproving noises from the Greek side of the frontier if you refer to the any Slavic language or the people speaking it as Macedonian, but the usage seems to be fairly well established at present. And it appears that a great many of the inhabitants of Macedonia in Alexander's day spoke non-Greek Indo-Euroepean languages, anyway, so the evolution of the term has an ancient precedent. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Fri Oct 15 18:10:52 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:10:52 +0200 Subject: Atta unsar Message-ID: > (Anthony) Even in the Balkan language Kalaidzhi Romani one finds: Dade amare, instead of Amare Dade. << I checked several versions in various Gypsie dialects and found both ways: R?manes (Germany) Dad amaro, so tu sal ando them, kerveschno te ol tro anav, tro vilago te al. Oda te ol, so tu kameha ando them taj te upri phuv. Amaro diveseskero maro de amenge sako di taj fa de amenge amare grihi," sar te amen fa das odalenge, so amenge ertschavipe kerde. Taj ma amen ledsche upro ertschavo drom, harn pomoschin amenge ertschavipestar. R?manes (France/Alsace) Maro Dat fun o bolepen Tiro lap te vel brin?edo Tur kontirepen te velo Tur vila te veli kerdi Ap i pup ar an o bolepen De mende ko dives maro maaro fun ko dives Cajre mare sindi ar cajra me nina kol ke prasa men Rike men kaj hi darenes Le men vri fun o dsungelo. Amen R?manes (Transylvania - Lutheran Roma) Amaro Dad R?manes (Romania) Amaro Dad, savo san ade bolipe, Teyavel arasno tiro lov, Teyavel tiro rayan, Teyavel tiro kam. Sir pe bolipe, ad'a i pe phu. De amenge, adadives, amaro sabdivesuno maro; I khem amenge amare dosha Sir i ame khemas amare doshvalenge ; I nalija amen ade perik Ne muk amen fuyipastar: Ad'a teyavel. Vlach Romani (Romania, Serbia etc.) Amaro Dad kai san ande o cheri! Ke tjiro anav t'avel svintsime; ke tjiri amperetsia t'avel; ketu keres sar tu kames pe e phuv sar ande o cheri. De amenge adjes amaro manrro sakone djesesko. Yertisar amenge amare bezexendar, sar vi ame jertisaras kudalendar kai amisaile amende. Na zurnav amen, numa skipisar amen katar o xitro. Ke tuke si, ande sa le BERSH kai avena, e amperetsia, e zor thai o vestimos. Amen. Also checking my sources, I couldn't retrieve the form _dade_ up to the moment. Is this kind of vocative? BTW, this rendering reminds me of a Dakota version: Amaro diveseskero maro de amenge sako di Anpetu otoiyohi anpetu woyute unk7u po Alfred From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sat Oct 16 10:18:24 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 12:18:24 +0200 Subject: Atta unsar Message-ID: >> (Anthony) Even in the Balkan language Kalaidzhi Romani one finds: Dade amare, instead of Amare Dade. <<<< > (Alfred) Also checking my sources, I couldn't retrieve the form _dade_ up to the moment. Is this kind of vocative? << Addendum: Sorry, at a closer look I found quite some other forms for 'father' apart from the most commonly attested _dad_ - also ones with vocalic finals among them (be it in German, North/West or South-East/East European dialects): dh?d (Kraus) dad(t) (Miskow) dat (Frenckel, Tielich, Rozwadowski*, Colocci*, Wratislaw*) dada (Sch?ffer, Black) dado (Pischel, Iversen) dade (Bischoff, Grellmann*, Ludolfus*, Vulcanius*) daade (Beytrag) dadi (Grellmann*) dati (Blankenburg) daddus (Smart) tat (Frenckel, Tielich) taat (Blankenburg) tata (Calvet) tadi (Colocci, it.) da (Kruse*) datta (Frenckel - expl. referred to as vocative!) tatta (Tielich) The asterixed sources refer to Eastern/South-Eastern dialects. BTW, v. Sowa thinks that all forms with final vowel are vocative forms (Rudolf von Sowa: 'W?rterbuch des Dialekts der deutschen Zigeuner'. Leipzig 1898. Alfred From rankin at ku.edu Sat Oct 16 15:29:37 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 10:29:37 -0500 Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) Message-ID: > I have the impression that Serbo-Croatian and Macedonian-Bulgarian Slavic > dialect groups are fairly closely related, right? But the latter more or > less participates in the area, while the former doesn't? They're all classified as South Slavic, but the definite article issogloss splits Serbian dialectally. It's all essentially areal, not extending much into Hungarian, Ukrainian, etc. in the NW/NE but including all Romanian dialects, all of Bulgarian, Macedonian and Albanian. There are entire books, several of them, on the Balkan Sprachbund, so I won't try to get into it on this list. There is evidence though, that both Bulgaria and Romania were bilingual Slavic/Romance with the current situation crystalizing out north and south of the Danube. And since Albanian seafaring and fishing terminology is all borrowed, the consensus is that they lived much farther inland to the north and east also. Bob > > It appears that you generally get angry disapproving noises from the Greek > side of the frontier if you refer to the any Slavic language or the people > speaking it as Macedonian, but the usage seems to be fairly well > established at present. And it appears that a great many of the > inhabitants of Macedonia in Alexander's day spoke non-Greek Indo-Euroepean > languages, anyway, so the evolution of the term has an ancient precedent. > From rankin at ku.edu Sat Oct 16 16:02:33 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 11:02:33 -0500 Subject: 2005 Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference. Message-ID: I just returned from Kaw City, OK and the tribal chairman of the Kaw Nation has approved our request to hold the 2005 SCLC meeting at the tribal complex in Kaw City. Justin McBride, the Kaw language coordinator arranged this for us and we owe him a vote of thanks. The next thing to do is to decide on precise dates so that I can publicize the meeting with other linguistics organizations and publications. We normally meet in very late May or sometime in June. Would it be possible for those of you who will be attending to let me know as soon as possible if you have any weekends during this period that you have definite conflicts? We had discussed the possibility of holding the meeting at the time of the Osage dances so that interested persons could attend these in the evenings. Does anyone recall what weekend(s) this was? Carolyn? That's the good news. The bad news is that while I was there the Kaw Nation lost Elmer Clark, the son of Maude Rowe, who had recorded her language with me back in the '70's. Elmer was just about the last person I know of who could even recall a little of the Kaw language. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Sat Oct 16 16:33:04 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 11:33:04 -0500 Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) Message-ID: > A standard analysis is that the article is > syntactically phrase-INITIAL, so the underlying form is something like "TA > ... kola", and it "hops" onto the following word through some kind of > prosody-driven phonological process, very much like other clitics in these > languages (and a variety of "second position" elements in lots of other > languages). Demonstratives are also phrase-initial determiners, but not > being clitics, they stay initial and don't "hop": TAZI stara zelena kola > 'this old green car' / ONAZI stara zelena kola 'that old green car'. > Is Romanian the same, Bob? Romanian is mostly the same in that the article attaches to noun modifiers preceding the noun copil 'child' copilu-l 'child-the' = the child mare-le copil 'big-the child' = the big child But in Romanian the demonstratives, acest, aceasta, acel, acela, etc. (there are lots), are not derived from the same base as the articles, so there isn't the nice synchronic evidence for initial placement and subsequent "hopping" that you have in Bulgarian/Macedonian. I don't know the status in Albanian. BTW, while I'm on Romanian articles, the textbook analysis of the masculine singular nominative-accusative article as a postposed -ul is wrong. The apparent suffix -ul is actually bimorphemic. The /-u/ is historically the masculine singular ending on the noun stem. The article is just the /-l/. (Or, more abstractly, /-lu/). There was a sound change that lost the -u regularly. So the proper segmentation of, say, calului 'of the horse' is calu + lu + i 'horse + art. + genitive. Not, as found in standard textbooks, *cal + ul + ui, or, worse, *cal + ului. Trust me, I wrote a whole dissertation of this stuff. :-) > This is obviously nothing like the situation of articles in Dhegiha > languages, where they are phrase-FINAL, following the noun and all sorts of > modifiers. I completely agree. > As for the question of whether determiners in European (SVO) languages > "should" be postposed/phrase-final, that depends on whether determiners are > modifiers (within NP) or heads (of DP). If determiners head their own > projection, you would expect them to be DP-final in OV languages, as they > in fact are in Omaha-Ponca and the rest of Dhegiha, and you would expect > them to be DP-initial in VO languages, as they in fact are in European > languages, including Bulgarian and I think all the other European languages > that have "postposed" articles. Yes, if you believe in DP's that would be the analysis. I won't be drawn into that one though. :-) I think the answer there depends on higer-level theoretical beliefs. Bob From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Sat Oct 16 18:16:28 2004 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Q.) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:16:28 -0500 Subject: 2005 Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference. In-Reply-To: <028a01c4b399$8d5cbd90$26b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: I've just put out three email requests for information on the dates of the dances in Grayhorse (nearest to Kaw City), Pawhuska and Hominy. And Justin would probably know, since he lives in Pawhuska and has many Osage friends. I'll get back to you as soon as I have any information. Grayhorse is always the first of the three dances, and is usually the first weekend in June, but once happened to take place the last weekend in May. Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of R. Rankin Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 11:03 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: 2005 Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference. I just returned from Kaw City, OK and the tribal chairman of the Kaw Nation has approved our request to hold the 2005 SCLC meeting at the tribal complex in Kaw City. Justin McBride, the Kaw language coordinator arranged this for us and we owe him a vote of thanks. The next thing to do is to decide on precise dates so that I can publicize the meeting with other linguistics organizations and publications. We normally meet in very late May or sometime in June. Would it be possible for those of you who will be attending to let me know as soon as possible if you have any weekends during this period that you have definite conflicts? We had discussed the possibility of holding the meeting at the time of the Osage dances so that interested persons could attend these in the evenings. Does anyone recall what weekend(s) this was? Carolyn? That's the good news. The bad news is that while I was there the Kaw Nation lost Elmer Clark, the son of Maude Rowe, who had recorded her language with me back in the '70's. Elmer was just about the last person I know of who could even recall a little of the Kaw language. Bob From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sat Oct 16 18:26:42 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 20:26:42 +0200 Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) Message-ID: > (Bob) BTW, while I'm on Romanian articles, the textbook analysis of the masculine singular nominative-accusative article as a postposed -ul is wrong. The apparent suffix -ul is actually bimorphemic. The /-u/ is historically the masculine singular ending on the noun stem. The article is just the /-l/. (Or, more abstractly, /-lu/). There was a sound change that lost the -u regularly. So the proper segmentation of, say, calului 'of the horse' is calu + lu + i 'horse + art. + genitive. Not, as found in standard textbooks, *cal + ul + ui, or, worse, *cal + ului. Trust me, I wrote a whole dissertation of this stuff :-) << I totally agree with that. And that seems to be why in some fix expressions there's still the final -u (without article -l), e.g. _dracu_. V? ia dracu Fiul Diavolului se duce la Satana: -Tat?, vreau s? m? insor! -Bine fiule, dar vezi s? nu iei o curv?! -Dar tat?, cum stiu c? nu e curv?? -P?i fiule,iesi cu un Ferarri pe o strad?, clanxonezi, si dac? intoarce capul e curv?, dac? nu ia-o de nevast?.... Iese el pe strad? cu Ferrari, clanxoneaz?, dar toate intorc capul. Iese el pe a 2-a strad? cu Ferrari, clanxoneaz?, dar toate intorc capul. Iese el pe a 3-a strad? cu Ferrari, clanxoneaz?, numai una nu intoarce capul. Se duce la ea si o ia de nevast?. MORALA BANCULUI: Fetelor faceti-v? curve, c? v? ia dracu' !! ;-) Alfred From tmleonard at cox.net Sat Oct 16 18:28:10 2004 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:28:10 -0500 Subject: 2005 Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference. Message-ID: > We had discussed the possibility of holding the meeting at the time of the Osage > dances so that interested persons could attend these in the evenings. Does > anyone recall what weekend(s) this was? Carolyn? The dates for the Osage Illonska dances are generally set in early Spring. Typically, theses dances begin on the first weekend (Thursday-Sunday) in June at Gray Horse (outside Fairfax, OK) followed by dances at Hominy then Pawhuska. Gray Horse is almost always first and nearly always the first weekend in June. The other Districts follow afterward. In recent years Hominy has held their dance on the weekend following Grayhorse. Pawhuska has held their dance 2 weeks after that (they skip one weekend). But, this is not a hard and fast rule. Sometimes Pawhuska is second. Sometimes it's Hominy. Sometimes they skip a weekend. Other times they don't. I believe the exact District order and dates are set at a Committee dinner in the Spring. I don't think you'll be able to nail down specific dates for the Illonska dances until then. From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 16 22:43:06 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 15:43:06 -0700 Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) In-Reply-To: <02a101c4b39d$d0bb7500$26b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Is Bulgarian the only Slavic language to have articles? I've studied Russian, which of course has no articles, and I'm thinking most of the other Slavic tongues don't either, with the exception of Bulgarian. Was Bulgarian the only Slavic language to be so influenced by this Romance and Greek trait of having articles? (And Albanian too, perhaps??) Dave "R. Rankin" wrote: > A standard analysis is that the article is > syntactically phrase-INITIAL, so the underlying form is something like "TA > ... kola", and it "hops" onto the following word through some kind of > prosody-driven phonological process, very much like other clitics in these > languages (and a variety of "second position" elements in lots of other > languages). Demonstratives are also phrase-initial determiners, but not > being clitics, they stay initial and don't "hop": TAZI stara zelena kola > 'this old green car' / ONAZI stara zelena kola 'that old green car'. > Is Romanian the same, Bob? Romanian is mostly the same in that the article attaches to noun modifiers preceding the noun copil 'child' copilu-l 'child-the' = the child mare-le copil 'big-the child' = the big child But in Romanian the demonstratives, acest, aceasta, acel, acela, etc. (there are lots), are not derived from the same base as the articles, so there isn't the nice synchronic evidence for initial placement and subsequent "hopping" that you have in Bulgarian/Macedonian. I don't know the status in Albanian. BTW, while I'm on Romanian articles, the textbook analysis of the masculine singular nominative-accusative article as a postposed -ul is wrong. The apparent suffix -ul is actually bimorphemic. The /-u/ is historically the masculine singular ending on the noun stem. The article is just the /-l/. (Or, more abstractly, /-lu/). There was a sound change that lost the -u regularly. So the proper segmentation of, say, calului 'of the horse' is calu + lu + i 'horse + art. + genitive. Not, as found in standard textbooks, *cal + ul + ui, or, worse, *cal + ului. Trust me, I wrote a whole dissertation of this stuff. :-) > This is obviously nothing like the situation of articles in Dhegiha > languages, where they are phrase-FINAL, following the noun and all sorts of > modifiers. I completely agree. > As for the question of whether determiners in European (SVO) languages > "should" be postposed/phrase-final, that depends on whether determiners are > modifiers (within NP) or heads (of DP). If determiners head their own > projection, you would expect them to be DP-final in OV languages, as they > in fact are in Omaha-Ponca and the rest of Dhegiha, and you would expect > them to be DP-initial in VO languages, as they in fact are in European > languages, including Bulgarian and I think all the other European languages > that have "postposed" articles. Yes, if you believe in DP's that would be the analysis. I won't be drawn into that one though. :-) I think the answer there depends on higer-level theoretical beliefs. Bob --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp Sun Oct 17 07:21:00 2004 From: Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp (Mike Morgan) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 16:21:00 +0900 Subject: Balkan tongues Message-ID: Dave Kaufman asked: > Is Bulgarian the only Slavic language to have articles? I've studied Russian, which of course has > no articles, and I'm thinking most of the other Slavic tongues don't either, with the exception of > Bulgarian. Was Bulgarian the only Slavic language to be so influenced by this Romance and Greek > trait of having articles? Macedonian also has articles (with the literary dialect actually having a triple series - parallel to the triple series of demonstratives). Of course, some (Bulgarians mostly?) would argue that Macedonian is JUST a dialect of Bulgarian. And the same MIGHT be said for the Prizren Serbian (bordering on Macedonian), which is reported (e.g. p. Comrie & Corbett, 386) to have widespread postposed articles. In South Slavdom, but outside what would normally be thought of as the Balkan Sprachbund area, we also find both definite and indefinite articles (en and ta, respectively) in Slovene (although discouraged in the literary language) (ibid, p. 411). It must also be said that these articles are pre- rather than postposed. (We also have the theoretical issue of whether we can really justify a separate category of articles in Slovene, since they appear NOT to be formally distinguished from the demonstrative adjectives.) And clearly far outside the Balkan Sprachbund area, postposed articles are ALSO found in SOME northern Russian dialects. (Sorry, I tried to track down a source - other than my aging memory of years long gone when I was an active Slavicist - but came up blank.) Sources cited: Comrie, Bernard & Greville G Corbett (1993) The Slavonic Languages. London & New York: Routledge. Mike Morgan Kobe City University of Foreign Studies Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sun Oct 17 10:03:51 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 12:03:51 +0200 Subject: Balkan tongues (Sprachbund) Message-ID: For those interested in (and reading German), here's a more recent magister's thesis online: http://www.joergkrusesweb.de/sprache/sprachbund/einleitung/linguistik.html Alfred From rankin at ku.edu Sun Oct 17 14:19:18 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 09:19:18 -0500 Subject: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) Message-ID: As I mentioned, Bulgarian, Macedonian and the Torlak dialects of Serbian have articles -- postposed. I'm told, but have no first-hand knowledge, that a few dialects of Russian well to the East of Moscow use /to/, /ta/, /tot/ as definite articles. I can't vouch for that. Maybe we'd better get back to Siouan? bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Kaufman" To: Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 5:43 PM Subject: Re: Balkan tongues (was: biloxi update) > Is Bulgarian the only Slavic language to have articles? I've studied Russian, which of course has no articles, and I'm thinking most of the other Slavic tongues don't either, with the exception of Bulgarian. Was Bulgarian the only Slavic language to be so influenced by this Romance and Greek trait of having articles? (And Albanian too, perhaps??) > > Dave > > "R. Rankin" wrote: > > A standard analysis is that the article is > > syntactically phrase-INITIAL, so the underlying form is something like "TA > > ... kola", and it "hops" onto the following word through some kind of > > prosody-driven phonological process, very much like other clitics in these > > languages (and a variety of "second position" elements in lots of other > > languages). Demonstratives are also phrase-initial determiners, but not > > being clitics, they stay initial and don't "hop": TAZI stara zelena kola > > 'this old green car' / ONAZI stara zelena kola 'that old green car'. > > > Is Romanian the same, Bob? > > Romanian is mostly the same in that the article attaches to noun modifiers > preceding the noun > > copil 'child' > copilu-l 'child-the' = the child > mare-le copil 'big-the child' = the big child > > But in Romanian the demonstratives, acest, aceasta, acel, acela, etc. (there are > lots), are not derived from the same base as the articles, so there isn't the > nice synchronic evidence for initial placement and subsequent "hopping" that you > have in Bulgarian/Macedonian. I don't know the status in Albanian. > > BTW, while I'm on Romanian articles, the textbook analysis of the masculine > singular nominative-accusative article as a postposed -ul is wrong. The > apparent suffix -ul is actually bimorphemic. The /-u/ is historically the > masculine singular ending on the noun stem. The article is just the /-l/. (Or, > more abstractly, /-lu/). There was a sound change that lost the -u regularly. > So the proper segmentation of, say, calului 'of the horse' is calu + lu + i > 'horse + art. + genitive. Not, as found in standard textbooks, *cal + ul + ui, > or, worse, *cal + ului. Trust me, I wrote a whole dissertation of this stuff. > :-) > > > This is obviously nothing like the situation of articles in Dhegiha > > languages, where they are phrase-FINAL, following the noun and all sorts of > > modifiers. > > I completely agree. > > > As for the question of whether determiners in European (SVO) languages > > "should" be postposed/phrase-final, that depends on whether determiners are > > modifiers (within NP) or heads (of DP). If determiners head their own > > projection, you would expect them to be DP-final in OV languages, as they > > in fact are in Omaha-Ponca and the rest of Dhegiha, and you would expect > > them to be DP-initial in VO languages, as they in fact are in European > > languages, including Bulgarian and I think all the other European languages > > that have "postposed" articles. > > Yes, if you believe in DP's that would be the analysis. I won't be drawn into > that one though. :-) I think the answer there depends on higer-level > theoretical beliefs. > > Bob > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 17 17:39:09 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 10:39:09 -0700 Subject: Balkan tongues In-Reply-To: <002601c4b419$db672a90$0274a8c0@FM116206905> Message-ID: Thanks for the enlightenment! Northern Russian dialects with postposed articles? Who would have thunk!!! Thanks. Dave Mike Morgan wrote: Dave Kaufman asked: > Is Bulgarian the only Slavic language to have articles? I've studied Russian, which of course has > no articles, and I'm thinking most of the other Slavic tongues don't either, with the exception of > Bulgarian. Was Bulgarian the only Slavic language to be so influenced by this Romance and Greek > trait of having articles? Macedonian also has articles (with the literary dialect actually having a triple series - parallel to the triple series of demonstratives). Of course, some (Bulgarians mostly?) would argue that Macedonian is JUST a dialect of Bulgarian. And the same MIGHT be said for the Prizren Serbian (bordering on Macedonian), which is reported (e.g. p. Comrie & Corbett, 386) to have widespread postposed articles. In South Slavdom, but outside what would normally be thought of as the Balkan Sprachbund area, we also find both definite and indefinite articles (en and ta, respectively) in Slovene (although discouraged in the literary language) (ibid, p. 411). It must also be said that these articles are pre- rather than postposed. (We also have the theoretical issue of whether we can really justify a separate category of articles in Slovene, since they appear NOT to be formally distinguished from the demonstrative adjectives.) And clearly far outside the Balkan Sprachbund area, postposed articles are ALSO found in SOME northern Russian dialects. (Sorry, I tried to track down a source - other than my aging memory of years long gone when I was an active Slavicist - but came up blank.) Sources cited: Comrie, Bernard & Greville G Corbett (1993) The Slavonic Languages. London & New York: Routledge. Mike Morgan Kobe City University of Foreign Studies Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 17 18:39:28 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 11:39:28 -0700 Subject: Siouan "have" verb Message-ID: Hi, Still awaiting my Biloxi dictionary to arrive, but I was reading through some other general Siouan papers I had received awhile back, including Bob Rankin's paper "From Verb to Auxiliary to Noun Classifier and Definite Article: Grammaticalization of the Siouan Verbs 'Sit,' 'Stand,' 'Lie.'" According to your paper, Bob, on page 277, Biloxi has no verb "to have" as in the other Siouan languages, and they had to resort to something like "my father moves" or "my mother sits" (which actually seems to be an alternative way of saying "be" as well.) Since I'm still new to Siouan studies, just wondering what the other Siouan languages do, as far as having an actual verb "have" or even "be" for that matter! Also, as concerns "have," if other Siouan languages do have this verb, is it simply one verb form regardless of what is possessed (as in English)? I ask this, because I know in some other Amerindian languages of other families, such as Cherokee and Navajo, different forms of the verb "have" are used depending on things like size, shape, and texture of the item possessed. To give a Cherokee example: a-gi-ha "I have (something weighty of indefinite shape)" vs. a-quv-ya "I have (something long, narrow, inflexible)." How does Siouan handle this? Dave --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Oct 17 20:30:33 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 14:30:33 -0600 Subject: Siouan "have" verb In-Reply-To: <20041017183928.43273.qmail@web53804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Oct 2004, David Kaufman wrote: > Also, as concerns "have," if other Siouan languages do have this verb, > is it simply one verb form regardless of what is possessed (as in > English)? I ask this, because I know in some other Amerindian languages > of other families, such as Cherokee and Navajo, different forms of the > verb "have" are used depending on things like size, shape, and texture > of the item possessed. To give a Cherokee example: a-gi-ha "I have > (something weighty of indefinite shape)" vs. a-quv-ya "I have (something > long, narrow, inflexible)." How does Siouan handle this? This pretty much depends on the language, I believe. The OP verb 'to have', cognate with similarly glossed verbs in the rest of MVS (except Dakotan) is adhiN (popular othographies would be athiN, with N coming out as raised n). In the Dorsey texts this is used with a variety of things, but not all things. Examples in the first person: zaNzi'-maN'de abdhiN'=tta=miNkhe 'I will have an Osage Orange bow.' Ttiu'dhiNba iz^a'z^e abdhiN 'My name is Lightening in the Lodge' eda'daN abdhiN' gdhu'ba=xti dhidhi'tta 'everything I have is yours' naNbe'=the abdhiN' agdhi ha 'I brought the hand back' ('I hav ethe hand I returned') s^aN'ge=thaN abdhiN' akhi'= thaN a'agdhiN horse the I had it I returned which I sat on it 'I rode the horse that I had' I thought I'd better gloss the last example more carefully as it is the first relative clause I've noticed with 'the' internally and externally. I have the impression that with horses it might be more normal to phrases things with the tta 'alienable possession' form, but these don't get glosses 'have'. I think adhiN' is normally 'have' in the sense of having something that can exist without being possessed. So it wouldn't be normal with kin. wamu'ske abdhiN' bdhu'ga=xti 'all (the) wheat I had ' However, for kin, the causative is normal: ihaN'=adhe his-mother=I-made-her 'I had her for a mother' But: PpaN'kka iNs^?a'ge wiN abdhI 'an old Ponca man I had' (Dorsey thinks someone unrelated living with the family, somebody supported out of a sense of responsibility - "I kept him" - but I wonder if the letter's author means a father-in-law.) didhadi dhathaN' ede=s^te his-father you-had-him unexpected=soever 'even if you had a father' Here I think the use of thaN might be dictated by the skepticism. I have corrected Dorsey's s^athaN (s^ with c) to dhathaN (Dorsey would have cent sign for dh). Also: z^u' dhathaN' 'you had a body' This verb thaN is sometimes translated 'be plentiful', but I think it is possibly more like 'be provided with'. Dorsey writes it explicitly as thaN, with an opening apostrophe, but I am not sure it isn't ttaN. I don't really trust his explicit aspiration marking in OP, because of several cases where it turned out not to be correct. 'not to have' is done with the experiencer verb dhiNge' 'to lack, not to have' From goodtracks at GBRonline.com Mon Oct 18 02:23:16 2004 From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:23:16 -0500 Subject: 2005 Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference. Message-ID: Bob: I know Carolyn spoke to you how the 3 districts set the dates with Grey Horse always the first one and most regularly set during the first weekend of June. Below you mention coordinating the Conference with the Spring Ilonshka (x3), so as interested persons who attend the Dance(s) could attend the Conference in the evening. There are two dance sessions on Thursday, Friday & Saturday. Sunday session begins about 1~2pm after dinner and lasts usually to 8pm or longer. What I am trying to say is that for those who participate and attend these dances, the evenings are no better than the mornings or afternoons to drive the good distance to be at Kaw Nation for the conference. And yes, many individuals who are interested in Osage language do attend the Ilonshka. As Carolyn says, one needs to wait to the Spring to learn what the dates will be for Hominy and Pawhuska, and in recent years there has been some innovative shuffles of dates as she suggested. Permit me to suggest that the better time to set the Conference date (I think) would be for the weekend in June that is not scheduled for any of the well attended Spring Dance Ceremonies. Even if Kaw was just up the road, rather than the hour (plus) drive from any of the three communities, it would be a competing activity and the Ilonska would win without any need to deliberate. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Rankin" To: Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 11:02 AM Subject: 2005 Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference. >I just returned from Kaw City, OK and the tribal chairman of the Kaw Nation >has > approved our request to hold the 2005 SCLC meeting at the tribal complex > in Kaw > City. Justin McBride, the Kaw language coordinator arranged this for us > and we > owe him a vote of thanks. > > We had discussed the possibility of holding the meeting at the time of the > Osage > dances so that interested persons could attend these in the evenings. > Does > anyone recall what weekend(s) this was? > > Bob From rankin at ku.edu Mon Oct 18 03:14:56 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 22:14:56 -0500 Subject: Balkan tongues Message-ID: > Thanks for the enlightenment! Northern Russian dialects with postposed articles? Who would have thunk!!! Thanks. Don't think the Russ ones are postposed, but it would take a much better Slavicist than me to know. B. From rankin at ku.edu Mon Oct 18 03:37:50 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 22:37:50 -0500 Subject: Siouan "have" verb Message-ID: "Have' and 'be' have never really been sorted out within Siouan from a comparative and historical point of view. 'Be in a place' is usually expressed with one of the positionals, although Dhegiha positional verbs derived secondarily from the articles have a reflex of *he, which apparently was a locative 'be', grafted onto the end of the verb. Thus *riNk-he 'sitting', *ariN-he 'moving', t-he 'standing inan.', k-he 'lying'. This can't be coincidence. Other Siouan languages have a 'be' verb with the shape *he or *?e. It it works out to be the latter, with the glottal stop, it would be a homophone or near-homophone (except for V length) of *?e: 'demonstrative'. The list has discussed this before, so you should find it in the archive. 'Be' of class membership is *riN in Dhegiha languages, yiN in Kansa. It is an R-stem with conjugation b-liN, h-niN in Kansa, as in Kka:Nze bliN 'I'm a Kaw'. 'Have' is *ariN in Dhegiha languages = ayiN in Kansa. John already discussed this verb. I'm not so sure that *ariN is found all across Siouan however. It is unclear at the moment whether there is a derivational relationship between 'be' of class membership and 'have' in Dhegiha languages; no one has taken these questions up very much. And, as John said, 'to have X as a kinsman' uses the causative suffix on the kinterm. BTW, the new and improved version of that 1977 paper of mine on the grammaticalization of positionals in Siouan is in the new issue of STUF (Sprach Typologie und Universalien Forschungen). Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Kaufman" To: Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 1:39 PM Subject: Siouan "have" verb > Hi, > > Still awaiting my Biloxi dictionary to arrive, but I was reading through some other general Siouan papers I had received awhile back, including Bob Rankin's paper "From Verb to Auxiliary to Noun Classifier and Definite Article: Grammaticalization of the Siouan Verbs 'Sit,' 'Stand,' 'Lie.'" According to your paper, Bob, on page 277, Biloxi has no verb "to have" as in the other Siouan languages, and they had to resort to something like "my father moves" or "my mother sits" (which actually seems to be an alternative way of saying "be" as well.) Since I'm still new to Siouan studies, just wondering what the other Siouan languages do, as far as having an actual verb "have" or even "be" for that matter! > > Also, as concerns "have," if other Siouan languages do have this verb, is it simply one verb form regardless of what is possessed (as in English)? I ask this, because I know in some other Amerindian languages of other families, such as Cherokee and Navajo, different forms of the verb "have" are used depending on things like size, shape, and texture of the item possessed. To give a Cherokee example: a-gi-ha "I have (something weighty of indefinite shape)" vs. a-quv-ya "I have (something long, narrow, inflexible)." How does Siouan handle this? > > Dave > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Oct 18 04:55:41 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 22:55:41 -0600 Subject: Siouan "have" verb In-Reply-To: <042e01c4b4c3$d8eed650$26b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Oct 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > 'Have' is *ariN in Dhegiha languages = ayiN in Kansa. John already > discussed this verb. I'm not so sure that *ariN is found all across > Siouan however. My apologies if I implied this. I meant to say that it was found in Missisippi Valley Siouan except Dakotan. That is, it occurs in Dhegiha, Ioway-Otoe, and Winnebago. Some details of its morphology are strikingly similar across this group, e.g. OP adhiN' 'to have' (basic) agdhadhiN 'to have one's own' (SUUS) IO aniN' 'to have' (basic) egra'niN 'to have one's own' (SUUS) Ho haniN' 'to have' (basic) ??? (SUUS) The Dhegiha and IO suus looks like it was based on *a...kakriN. The OP verb is inflected a-dha-gdha-niN in the second person, and aNga'gdhadhiN=i in the inclusive, suggesting an inflectional pattern: INC a PRO SUUS PRO ROOT A1 a a' gdha b dhiN (?) 'I have my own' A2 a dha' gdha (s^) niN 'you have your own' A3 a gdha' dhiN 'he has his own' A12 aNg a' gdha dhiN 'we have our own' I've spaced things out to line up comparable elements. As always in OP and Dakotan, the shift of the initial consonant (n in OP; l, etc. in Dakotan) of the *r-stem ends up being the effective marker of the second person with such stems. This pattern connects Dhegiha with IO and Winnebago, but, of course, Dakotan yuha is just as likely to be an innovation, so this isn't much use in subdividing MVS, though it has some merit as an isogloss. > It is unclear at the moment whether there is a derivational relationship > between 'be' of class membership and 'have' in Dhegiha languages; no one > has taken these questions up very much. If *ariN 'to have' is derived from *riN 'to be of a kind' there is a certain parallel with locative pattern of 'have' in other language, e.g., Latin mihi est 'I have' = 'to me is', Russian u menya (yest') 'I have' = 'by me (is)'. However, for an exact parallel we'd expect a stative or dative inflection of *ariN, with the a-locative governing the pronominal This is effectively what happens with the stative *riNk-e 'not to have', though this lacks a locative. (And isn't very productive outside of Dhegiha and maybe IO.) In fact, of course, we get active inflection, and the a-prefix is only dubiously a locative. In OP it doesn't take initial stress, for example, which is typical of locative-a, cf. a'gdhiN 'to sit on'. It acts more like the a-prefix of Dhegiha motion verbs, which has something like commitative force, since typically it only occurs with plurals. In Dhegiha this "naturally" also extends to the third singular proximate forms! The Dakotan element comparable to this "pluralizer" a-prefix in Dhegiha motion verbs is described by Boas & Deloria (1941:94) in these terms: "The verbs of going, coming, and arriving with the prefix ?a- express to go, come, arrive carrying; also collective, to go, come, arrive in a group, evidently with the same meaning of bringing others along; ..." There's an interesting parallel here between the a-prefix in Dakotan motion verbs and the unusual suus form of *ariN to have shown above, which looked like it may have been PMVS *akrariN. The a-forms of Dakotan motion verbs have suus-froms in glo- or gloa-. For example, au' 'to come bringing something', but glou' to come bringing one's own'. It looks like Dhegiha goes one step further in adding a pleonastic a- to the front of this element glo(a)- < *k-ro-a-, as well as contracting the *k-ro-a- to *kra-. IO seems to go one step further than that, by adding a pleonastic suus *-ki- after *a-, to get egra- from *a-(k)i-k-ro-a-. Incidentally, IO also has "tun'" 'to have, possess', which looks like it would be thuN, corresponding to the OP taN 'to be provided with; to have' that I mentoned last time. This suggests ttaN rather than thaN, by the way, as I suspected. > And, as John said, 'to have X as a kinsman' uses the causative suffix on > the kinterm. This causative with kin develops into the productive kinship possession construction in Winnebago. > BTW, the new and improved version of that 1977 paper of mine on the > grammaticalization of positionals in Siouan is in the new issue of STUF > (Sprach Typologie und Universalien Forschungen). I hope there's not a sister journal called Unsinn! (Presumably the latter would deal with semantics!) [Sorry, it was a perfectly good pun and it was just lying there unclaimed.] From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Oct 18 05:05:45 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 23:05:45 -0600 Subject: Proposed Name Change for List In-Reply-To: <042e01c4b4c3$d8eed650$26b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: This summer I was thinking of renaming the list "Siouan and Naval Etymology List," (SNEL, or VITE, after calquing), but now I see that it should probably be "Siouan and Balkan Linguistics List," (SABLList, or SLABBist after metamorphosis, which is like metathesis, only worse), since so many on the list are interested in both areas, if I may be forgiven another slight, and entirely accidental pun. From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon Oct 18 14:41:09 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 08:41:09 -0600 Subject: 2005 Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference. In-Reply-To: <028a01c4b399$8d5cbd90$26b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: For me, the earlier in the summer season the better. Mid to late May would be ideal. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Sat, 16 Oct 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > I just returned from Kaw City, OK and the tribal chairman of the Kaw Nation has > approved our request to hold the 2005 SCLC meeting at the tribal complex in Kaw > City. Justin McBride, the Kaw language coordinator arranged this for us and we > owe him a vote of thanks. > > The next thing to do is to decide on precise dates so that I can publicize the > meeting with other linguistics organizations and publications. We normally meet > in very late May or sometime in June. Would it be possible for those of you who > will be attending to let me know as soon as possible if you have any weekends > during this period that you have definite conflicts? > > We had discussed the possibility of holding the meeting at the time of the Osage > dances so that interested persons could attend these in the evenings. Does > anyone recall what weekend(s) this was? Carolyn? > > That's the good news. The bad news is that while I was there the Kaw Nation > lost Elmer Clark, the son of Maude Rowe, who had recorded her language with me > back in the '70's. Elmer was just about the last person I know of who could > even recall a little of the Kaw language. > > Bob > From rankin at ku.edu Mon Oct 18 16:43:27 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:43:27 -0500 Subject: STUF correction Message-ID: I was trying to type from memory the reference to the paper "The History and Development of Siouan Positionals with special attention to polygrammaticalization in Dhegiha", and my lousy German got the publication title wrong in spite of the available acronym. STUF is "Sprachtypologie und Universalienforschung." I separated too many words and put the wrong ending on Forschung I think. Sorry 'bout that. The page ref. is Vol. 57, issue 2&3, pp. 202-227. More than you ever wanted to know (but short of a totally complete treatment, of course) about Siouan positionals. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Mon Oct 18 16:47:39 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:47:39 -0500 Subject: Mississippi Valley Ablaut. Message-ID: From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of "Alfred W. T?ting" > BTW, the different uses of ablaut/non-ablaut verb forms in e.g. Dakota still seems really puzzling to me. Alfred If you have the Siouan fonts from John Koontz's website, I have a historical treatment of the origins of Ablaut I can email. It isn't published but it ought to be readable. (N.B. those Siouan fonts don't work with the Mac.) Bob From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Oct 19 00:57:18 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 19:57:18 -0500 Subject: Siouan "have" verb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John wrote: > This verb thaN is sometimes translated 'be plentiful', but I think it is > possibly more like 'be provided with'. Dorsey writes it explicitly as > thaN, with an opening apostrophe, but I am not sure it isn't ttaN. I > don't really trust his explicit aspiration marking in OP, because of > several cases where it turned out not to be correct. We've recently asked our speakers about this, and I think we got a strong affirmation that the word is indeed ttaN, not tHaN. I've always wondered about that rare "opening apostrophe" in Dorsey. So it is supposed to indicate explicit aspiration? But don't we also encounter it after the 'd' in d(u'ba, 'some', as opposed to du'ba, 'four'? (My opening parenthesis being used for Dorsey's opening apostrophe here.) > didhadi dhathaN' ede=s^te > his-father you-had-him unexpected=soever > 'even if you had a father' > > Here I think the use of thaN might be dictated by the skepticism. I'm pretty sure I've seen ttaN used in Dorsey for a man "having" a son, in a situation that I don't think was in any way irrealis. > However, for kin, the causative is normal: > > ihaN'=adhe his-mother=I-made-her 'I had her for a mother' I wonder if ttaN and the causative don't reflect two different levels of "kinship-having", rather like the stereotypical "Anglo-Saxon" and "Norman French" levels in English. The word ttaN would be "Anglo-Saxon". It would be the original basic word for "having" a relative, where one is speaking of blood relationship and real nuclear family dependencies. The causative would be "Norman French". It would be used for relationships assumed for high-level social, economic and political purposes. These relationships would often be technically fictitious, but publically recognizing them would define mutual support obligations. They would also define whom one could or could not marry within the clan system. This usage should have evolved along with the clan and tribal system, and it would be used when one wanted to stress the standard social obligations of a relationship. "I had her for a mother", causative, would imply that she and I were in a recognized social relationship in which she acted as a mother to me. "Even if you had a father", dhattaN', would imply that you do not have a known sire who is still alive. > Also: > > z^u' dhathaN' 'you had a body' Yes. And nE'xetti-sihi'-ttaN, 'a skillet with legs'. "Having" a body, and "having" certain parts characteristically, seem to be in the realm of ttaN. > This verb thaN is sometimes translated 'be plentiful', but I think it is > possibly more like 'be provided with'. I agree, though there does seem to be some connotation of abundance, too. Perhaps 'be _comfortably_ provided with'? We've tried to nail down the difference between ttaN and adhiN' with our speakers, and I think there may be a range of overlap where either is acceptable. I suspect also that adhiN' is coming to replace ttaN. But what experience I have with these terms suggests the following distinction to me: ttaN - to have, in a characteristic or elemental way that is independent of societal allocation. adhiN' - to have, in an immediate way, or in a way that is dependent upon the agreement of others. So: maN'zeska ttaN - to have money characteristically, to be wealthy. maN'zeska adhiN' - to have money immediately, e.g. in one's pocket. But a name or title is socially dependent; hence: > Ttiu'dhiNba iz^a'z^e abdhiN 'My name is Lightening in the Lodge' > I think adhiN' is normally 'have' in the sense of having > something that can exist without being possessed. So it wouldn't be > normal with kin. > > But: > > PpaN'kka iNs^?a'ge wiN abdhI 'an old Ponca man I had' (Dorsey thinks > someone unrelated living with the family, somebody supported out of a > sense of responsibility - "I kept him" - but I wonder if the letter's > author means a father-in-law.) Perhaps, though it doesn't seem to be specified. In other postings, John and Bob have discussed the possibility that adhiN' is derived from a-dhiN, where dhiN is the verb 'to be (a member of a set)'. The suggestion is that this is something like 'it is to me' type constructions in some European languages. If that is the case, then we should realize that our 'have' word adhiN' is much "lighter" than the English word 'have'. It might indicate something more like accompaniment than possession or relationship. "I had an old Ponca man" might just mean "I had an old Ponca man (along with me)", rather than "I had an old Ponca man (as a slave or relative)". Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Oct 19 04:29:05 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 22:29:05 -0600 Subject: Siouan "have" verb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > We've recently asked our speakers about this, and I think we got a > strong affirmation that the word is indeed ttaN, not tHaN. Thanks! > I've always wondered about that rare "opening apostrophe" in Dorsey. > So it is supposed to indicate explicit aspiration? That's my understanding of it. Dorsey's use of apostrophes has to be watched closely. He uses closing apostrophe after stops for ejection, and opening apostrophes for aspiration, though as seen I'm not sure his judgements of aspiration for Omaha-Ponca are reliable. He also uses opening apostrophe after fricatives for glottalization, and between vowels or initially for glottal stop, so context determines what opening apostrophe means. I've seen opening apostrophe used initially for three different cases: a) Words like (?)aN that fall into the Proto-Siouan glottal stop stem category, though the only form in which glottalization could appear would be initially in te third peson. I don't hear these forms as any more glottalized than any other vowel initial, but I'm not sure I ever really examined them carefully enough. b) Words like ?i 'give' which have glottal stop from *k? and *x?. Again I hear nothing special initially - i.e., maybe there is a glottal stop - but there is definitely a glottal stop when a V final pronominal follows. c) Words like (?)idhe 'to speak of' in which I again detect nothing special, and have no reasons historical or contemporary to suspect a glottal stop. > But don't we also encounter it after the 'd' in d(u'ba, 'some', as > opposed to du'ba, 'four'? (My opening parenthesis being used for > Dorsey's opening apostrophe here.) And then there's "d(uba" which I think represents j^uba. But why Dorsey writes d(uba and not djuba I am at loss to say. At least he never writes djuba, as far as I can tell, and j^uba definitely occurs. Maybe he was early on impressed by a slow and careful du'ba with the expected glottalized vowel of CV'CV forms? > > didhadi dhathaN' ede=s^te > > his-father you-had-him unexpected=soever > > 'even if you had a father' > > > > Here I think the use of thaN might be dictated by the skepticism. > I'm pretty sure I've seen ttaN used in Dorsey for a man "having" a son, > in a situation that I don't think was in any way irrealis. I hadn't really thought of it in terms of irrealis. It's more in the way of belittlment, though I guess irrealis is fair. Still, it sounds like I had better go back and see what the options are for kin terms and/or ttaN! > I wonder if ttaN and the causative don't reflect two different levels of > "kinship-having", rather like the stereotypical "Anglo-Saxon" and > "Norman French" levels in English. > > > However, for kin, the causative is normal: > > > > ihaN'=adhe his-mother=I-made-her 'I had her for a mother' > > The word ttaN would be "Anglo-Saxon". It would be the original basic > word for "having" a relative, where one is speaking of blood > relationship and real nuclear family dependencies. > > The causative would be "Norman French". It would be used for > relationships assumed for high-level social, economic and political > purposes. ... There might well be some sort of connotative distinciton. I don't know how widely the *htuN verb is attested with kin. I think it's widespread in the sense of 'for a resource to occur', i.e., as 'be plentiful', which would be consistent with 'be provided with'. The causative construction is pan-Mississippi Valley. I'm not sure about Ioway-Otoe, but it's found in Dakotan, Dhegiha, and Winnebago. This wouldn't prevent it from being an upper register form in OP or Dhegiha, of course. > > Also: > > > > z^u' dhathaN' 'you had a body' > > Yes. And nE'xetti-sihi'-ttaN, 'a skillet with legs'. > > "Having" a body, and "having" certain parts characteristically, > seem to be in the realm of ttaN. > > > This verb thaN is sometimes translated 'be plentiful', but I think it is > > possibly more like 'be provided with'. > > I agree, though there does seem to be some connotation of > abundance, too. Perhaps 'be _comfortably_ provided with'? That more or less fits the context with 'father' and 'son', too. It might not work with 'spouse' or some other relationships. I won't include the rest of Rory's comments here, but it's clear that the folks involved in the classes at UNL have been doing some interesting and useful things with 'have' as well as everything else! From Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp Tue Oct 19 05:06:29 2004 From: Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp (Mike Morgan) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:06:29 +0900 Subject: Balkan tongues Message-ID: > Don't think the Russ ones are postposed, but it would take a much better > Slavicist than me to know. Can't claim to be that... my training in Slavic Linguistics is long behind me, and only from time to time does it surface (usually unexpectedly). As for whether N Russian articles are post-posed or not, I COULD be wrong - it DOES happen, particularly when relying on memory of E Slavic dialectology classes some 30 years ago! I tried to track down a source - in my library, on the net, etc - but couldn't. So take it with a grain (or more, if your not on a low-salt diet) of salt. Anyway, I agree with Bob that we should probably move on from the "Balkan tongues" thread, and to help that transition, I have a perhaps naive Native American Sprachbund question. Put simply, what work has been done trying to argue for Sprachbund effects for Siouan languages (as a group and/or individually). Presumably the languages that would go into such a grouping are out East somewhere. And since East is a relative term, I DON'T mean out East like where I live, but the original homeland of the Siouans, or some intermediate homeland for individual languages of subgroups, assuming they stayed there long enough for the effects to take hold. Again presumably - and supported by what LITTLE I know of the structure of languages that they have been in contact with in recent history - the Lakota (and Nakota) Sioux have not been where they currently dwell long enough for any such effects (or am I wrong ... again?). I don't claim to be a Siouanist, and so may well be lacking in even basic knowledge (though I have been lurking the list for maybe 3 years or a bit more, since work I was doing on Japanese Sign Language typology lead me back to Klimov and the theory of active-stative languages and that lead to studying Lakota and Guarani ... and so it goes). If it doesn't merit an on-line discussion, I personally would appreciate someone directing me to where to start looking (a short biblio, internet links, past Siouan ML postings, etc). Thanks! Mike Morgan Kobe City University of Foreign Studies Kobe, Japan Sign Linguist Sign Theoretic (aka Jakobsonian) Linguist One-time Slavicist (and borderline Balkanist) Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Oct 19 16:04:23 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:04:23 -0600 Subject: Siouan and Sprachbunds (Re: Balkan tongues) In-Reply-To: <00d301c4b599$64d263f0$0274a8c0@FM116206905> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Oct 2004, Mike Morgan wrote: > I have a perhaps naive Native American Sprachbund question. Put simply, > what work has been done trying to argue for Sprachbund effects for > Siouan languages (as a group and/or individually). Well, Mary Haas, Dale Nicklas, and Robert Rankin have all argued in various places, mostly unpublished in the latter two cases, I think, that Biloxi - inserted in the middle of Muskogean territory - has a considerable degree of assimilation to Muskogean. Noticeable loans, some tendency to CV- ~ VC- forms for pronominals, switch reference (with similar morphemes marking it - not sure if I remember that right?), and so on. I would argue, though I've never developed the arguments formally, that the many similarities of Crow-Hidatsa and Mandan are in many cases secondary and seem to reflect strong influence by Crow-Hidatsa on Mandan, which was originally more like typical Mississippi Valley languages. Bob Rankin has a paper - not published I think - that develops a case for a variety of Central Algonquian influences in Dhegiha. He and others have also pointed out a regional tendency to use of positionals in the southeast that extends into Dhegiha. Of course, all Siouan languages make more or less strong use of positionals, though Dhegiha and Biloxi are certainly among the champions. However, Winnebago and Mandan also scatter them about fairly freely. The main prehistoric "entity" that might have served to integrate a Sprachbund include Siouan and other languages would seem to be "Mississippian" culture or perhaps more narrowly, Cahokian culture. Unfortunately this waned before the earliest visits, apart from Spanish raiding across the Southeast in Catawban and Muskogean territory, which was well organized militarily, but singularly unobservant. De Soto and company make Lewis & Clark look the California Linguistic Survey. The details in the memoirs mostly have to do with lengths of marches, foraging, armaments, numbers living and killed, and absence of gold. Sometimes they remembered the placenames, mostly with most of the syllables present and in the right order, surprisingly often even recognizable, considering the length of the chain of kidnapped translators. > Presumably the languages that would go into such a grouping are out East > somewhere. And since East is a relative term, I DON'T mean out East like > where I live, but the original homeland of the Siouans, or some > intermediate homeland for individual languages of subgroups, assuming > they stayed there long enough for the effects to take hold. Again > presumably - and supported by what LITTLE I know of the structure of > languages that they have been in contact with in recent history - the > Lakota (and Nakota) Sioux have not been where they currently dwell long > enough for any such effects (or am I wrong ... again?). The most easterly and southerly Siouan languages seem to be fairly recent arrivals where they are, though the jury is still out on "Tutelo - when and whence?" The characterization of Siouan as "Eastern" derives from (a) its known connection with Catawban, (b) its less secure connection with Iroquoian and Caddoan and Yuchi, and (c) an early and incorrect perception that the Plains were uninabited/uninhabitable before the horse. The center of gravity of the Siouan family seems to be something like Missouri or Iowa. If Biloxi is recent on Biloxi Bay, either it assimilated to Muskogean at break-neck speed, or it started out somewhere where Muskogean languages were also to be found, e.g., perhaps along the southern edge of the Ohio Valley? Archaeologists generally assign the Dakota-Lakota with various "manifestations" in Minnesota and the eastern Dakotas, now grouped under the name Psinomani i.e. psiN omani 'rice gathering', though the more westerly sites involve earth lodge villages and maize growing. They are still assembling this from bits and pieces they hadn't previously associated and I'm not really current on progress. One of the characteristic "wares" is called Sandy Lake, which is a sort of minimalist approach to Oneota pottery. I'm not sure if Psinomani is deduced from the linguistics, which would be somewhat risky, or if it is something more. The Northern Plains seem somewhat negelected generally, and the easterly Dakota area (ranging into the Great Lakes woodlands) is on the edge of several well-studied areas, resulting in a tendency not to see connections. (American archaeology seems to follow the Balkan political model.) I personally wonder if Psinomani isn't really a case of Siouan languages (Proto-Dakota) spreading to a bunch of somewhat disparate adjacent groups. Anyway, the consensus is that the Dakota have been in the more easterly part of the Dakota-speaking area for a fairly long time, a least 1000 years. Most of the uncertainty as to original location and subsequent movement surrounds Dhegiha. From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 19 20:12:05 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:12:05 -0700 Subject: Siouan and Sprachbunds (Re: Balkan tongues) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -- Biloxi - inserted in the middle of Muskogean territory - has a considerable degree of assimilation to Muskogean. -- So, does this mean I should be looking at the Muskogean family too in order to better understand Biloxi? (Which I intend to do when I get my dictionary and subsequent materials.) -- The characterization of Siouan as "Eastern" derives from (a) its known connection with Catawban, (b) its less secure connection with Iroquoian and Caddoan and Yuchi -- So there is possibly a connection between Iroquoian and Siouan? What evidence would there be of this? (I'm also interested in Cherokee, as I mentioned before.) Thanks. Dave Koontz John E wrote: On Tue, 19 Oct 2004, Mike Morgan wrote: > I have a perhaps naive Native American Sprachbund question. Put simply, > what work has been done trying to argue for Sprachbund effects for > Siouan languages (as a group and/or individually). Well, Mary Haas, Dale Nicklas, and Robert Rankin have all argued in various places, mostly unpublished in the latter two cases, I think, that Biloxi - inserted in the middle of Muskogean territory - has a considerable degree of assimilation to Muskogean. Noticeable loans, some tendency to CV- ~ VC- forms for pronominals, switch reference (with similar morphemes marking it - not sure if I remember that right?), and so on. I would argue, though I've never developed the arguments formally, that the many similarities of Crow-Hidatsa and Mandan are in many cases secondary and seem to reflect strong influence by Crow-Hidatsa on Mandan, which was originally more like typical Mississippi Valley languages. Bob Rankin has a paper - not published I think - that develops a case for a variety of Central Algonquian influences in Dhegiha. He and others have also pointed out a regional tendency to use of positionals in the southeast that extends into Dhegiha. Of course, all Siouan languages make more or less strong use of positionals, though Dhegiha and Biloxi are certainly among the champions. However, Winnebago and Mandan also scatter them about fairly freely. The main prehistoric "entity" that might have served to integrate a Sprachbund include Siouan and other languages would seem to be "Mississippian" culture or perhaps more narrowly, Cahokian culture. Unfortunately this waned before the earliest visits, apart from Spanish raiding across the Southeast in Catawban and Muskogean territory, which was well organized militarily, but singularly unobservant. De Soto and company make Lewis & Clark look the California Linguistic Survey. The details in the memoirs mostly have to do with lengths of marches, foraging, armaments, numbers living and killed, and absence of gold. Sometimes they remembered the placenames, mostly with most of the syllables present and in the right order, surprisingly often even recognizable, considering the length of the chain of kidnapped translators. > Presumably the languages that would go into such a grouping are out East > somewhere. And since East is a relative term, I DON'T mean out East like > where I live, but the original homeland of the Siouans, or some > intermediate homeland for individual languages of subgroups, assuming > they stayed there long enough for the effects to take hold. Again > presumably - and supported by what LITTLE I know of the structure of > languages that they have been in contact with in recent history - the > Lakota (and Nakota) Sioux have not been where they currently dwell long > enough for any such effects (or am I wrong ... again?). The most easterly and southerly Siouan languages seem to be fairly recent arrivals where they are, though the jury is still out on "Tutelo - when and whence?" The characterization of Siouan as "Eastern" derives from (a) its known connection with Catawban, (b) its less secure connection with Iroquoian and Caddoan and Yuchi, and (c) an early and incorrect perception that the Plains were uninabited/uninhabitable before the horse. The center of gravity of the Siouan family seems to be something like Missouri or Iowa. If Biloxi is recent on Biloxi Bay, either it assimilated to Muskogean at break-neck speed, or it started out somewhere where Muskogean languages were also to be found, e.g., perhaps along the southern edge of the Ohio Valley? Archaeologists generally assign the Dakota-Lakota with various "manifestations" in Minnesota and the eastern Dakotas, now grouped under the name Psinomani i.e. psiN omani 'rice gathering', though the more westerly sites involve earth lodge villages and maize growing. They are still assembling this from bits and pieces they hadn't previously associated and I'm not really current on progress. One of the characteristic "wares" is called Sandy Lake, which is a sort of minimalist approach to Oneota pottery. I'm not sure if Psinomani is deduced from the linguistics, which would be somewhat risky, or if it is something more. The Northern Plains seem somewhat negelected generally, and the easterly Dakota area (ranging into the Great Lakes woodlands) is on the edge of several well-studied areas, resulting in a tendency not to see connections. (American archaeology seems to follow the Balkan political model.) I personally wonder if Psinomani isn't really a case of Siouan languages (Proto-Dakota) spreading to a bunch of somewhat disparate adjacent groups. Anyway, the consensus is that the Dakota have been in the more easterly part of the Dakota-speaking area for a fairly long time, a least 1000 years. Most of the uncertainty as to original location and subsequent movement surrounds Dhegiha. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Tue Oct 19 20:58:12 2004 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:58:12 -0600 Subject: Iroquoian and Siouan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry about the spelling in the header of my other message -- too much haste. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From rood at spot.colorado.edu Tue Oct 19 20:55:08 2004 From: rood at spot.colorado.edu (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:55:08 -0600 Subject: Iroqoian and Siouan In-Reply-To: <20041019201205.65406.qmail@web53803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There is an article by Wally Chafe in the 1964 American Anthropologist (vol 66 no. 4 pt. 1, pp. 852-862) entitled "Another Look at Siouan and Iroquoian" that is just about the whole body of evidence for that suggested connection. Judging from conversations over the years, I have the impression that Wally and Marianne are pretty convinced of a Caddoan/Iroquoian connection, but I'm not sure where they stand on Siouan right now. It's also worth looking at Lyle Campbell's chapter on Macro Siouan in his "American Indian Languages: The Historical Linguistics of Native America", pp. 262-269. He provides a thorough and critical review of all the long-distance proposals for Siouan. Not surprisingly, he doesn't think we can consider them related with our present state of knowledge. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Tue, 19 Oct 2004, David Kaufman wrote: > -- Biloxi - inserted in the middle of Muskogean territory - has a considerable degree of assimilation to Muskogean. -- So, does this mean I should be looking at the Muskogean family too in order to better understand Biloxi? (Which I intend to do when I get my dictionary and subsequent materials.) > > -- The characterization of Siouan as "Eastern" derives from (a) its known connection with Catawban, (b) its less secure connection with Iroquoian and Caddoan and Yuchi -- So there is possibly a connection between Iroquoian and Siouan? What evidence would there be of this? (I'm also interested in Cherokee, as I mentioned before.) > > Thanks. > > Dave > > Koontz John E wrote: > On Tue, 19 Oct 2004, Mike Morgan wrote: > > I have a perhaps naive Native American Sprachbund question. Put simply, > > what work has been done trying to argue for Sprachbund effects for > > Siouan languages (as a group and/or individually). > > Well, Mary Haas, Dale Nicklas, and Robert Rankin have all argued in > various places, mostly unpublished in the latter two cases, I think, that > Biloxi - inserted in the middle of Muskogean territory - has a > considerable degree of assimilation to Muskogean. Noticeable loans, some > tendency to CV- ~ VC- forms for pronominals, switch reference (with > similar morphemes marking it - not sure if I remember that right?), and so > on. > > I would argue, though I've never developed the arguments formally, that > the many similarities of Crow-Hidatsa and Mandan are in many cases > secondary and seem to reflect strong influence by Crow-Hidatsa on Mandan, > which was originally more like typical Mississippi Valley languages. > > Bob Rankin has a paper - not published I think - that develops a case for > a variety of Central Algonquian influences in Dhegiha. He and others have > also pointed out a regional tendency to use of positionals in the > southeast that extends into Dhegiha. Of course, all Siouan languages make > more or less strong use of positionals, though Dhegiha and Biloxi are > certainly among the champions. However, Winnebago and Mandan also scatter > them about fairly freely. > > The main prehistoric "entity" that might have served to integrate a > Sprachbund include Siouan and other languages would seem to be > "Mississippian" culture or perhaps more narrowly, Cahokian culture. > Unfortunately this waned before the earliest visits, apart from Spanish > raiding across the Southeast in Catawban and Muskogean territory, which > was well organized militarily, but singularly unobservant. De Soto and > company make Lewis & Clark look the California Linguistic Survey. The > details in the memoirs mostly have to do with lengths of marches, > foraging, armaments, numbers living and killed, and absence of gold. > Sometimes they remembered the placenames, mostly with most of the > syllables present and in the right order, surprisingly often even > recognizable, considering the length of the chain of kidnapped > translators. > > > Presumably the languages that would go into such a grouping are out East > > somewhere. And since East is a relative term, I DON'T mean out East like > > where I live, but the original homeland of the Siouans, or some > > intermediate homeland for individual languages of subgroups, assuming > > they stayed there long enough for the effects to take hold. Again > > presumably - and supported by what LITTLE I know of the structure of > > languages that they have been in contact with in recent history - the > > Lakota (and Nakota) Sioux have not been where they currently dwell long > > enough for any such effects (or am I wrong ... again?). > > The most easterly and southerly Siouan languages seem to be fairly recent > arrivals where they are, though the jury is still out on "Tutelo - when > and whence?" The characterization of Siouan as "Eastern" derives from (a) > its known connection with Catawban, (b) its less secure connection with > Iroquoian and Caddoan and Yuchi, and (c) an early and incorrect perception > that the Plains were uninabited/uninhabitable before the horse. The > center of gravity of the Siouan family seems to be something like Missouri > or Iowa. > > If Biloxi is recent on Biloxi Bay, either it assimilated to Muskogean at > break-neck speed, or it started out somewhere where Muskogean languages > were also to be found, e.g., perhaps along the southern edge of the Ohio > Valley? > > Archaeologists generally assign the Dakota-Lakota with various > "manifestations" in Minnesota and the eastern Dakotas, now grouped under > the name Psinomani i.e. psiN omani 'rice gathering', though the more > westerly sites involve earth lodge villages and maize growing. They are > still assembling this from bits and pieces they hadn't previously > associated and I'm not really current on progress. One of the > characteristic "wares" is called Sandy Lake, which is a sort of minimalist > approach to Oneota pottery. > > I'm not sure if Psinomani is deduced from the linguistics, which would be > somewhat risky, or if it is something more. The Northern Plains seem > somewhat negelected generally, and the easterly Dakota area (ranging into > the Great Lakes woodlands) is on the edge of several well-studied areas, > resulting in a tendency not to see connections. (American archaeology > seems to follow the Balkan political model.) I personally wonder if > Psinomani isn't really a case of Siouan languages (Proto-Dakota) spreading > to a bunch of somewhat disparate adjacent groups. Anyway, the consensus is > that the Dakota have been in the more easterly part of the Dakota-speaking > area for a fairly long time, a least 1000 years. > > Most of the uncertainty as to original location and subsequent movement > surrounds Dhegiha. > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! From rankin at ku.edu Tue Oct 19 21:39:30 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:39:30 -0500 Subject: Siouan and Sprachbunds (Re: Balkan tongues) Message-ID: Probably my fullest published discussion of some of these things is in the Mary Hass "Festkonferenz" volume. There should be a ref. on John Boyle's "Siouan Bibliography" site. I've always thought that the extensive changes that Cheyenne and Arapaho underwent along with the changes that Hidatsa and more especially Crow underwent might have been part of what is called "Middle Missouri" in archaeology. (Is that the right term?). This includes the sound change s --> t /__a in both Algonquian and Crow. These things are hard to prove though. John Koontz's research tends to support strong Algonquian contact toward the north -- in the Illinois country and points north. He found loans for 'squash', 'bow' and maybe others. I discussed common consonant cluster treatment (filter, constraint) in an unpublished paper. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: "Siouan List" Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 11:04 AM Subject: Siouan and Sprachbunds (Re: Balkan tongues) > On Tue, 19 Oct 2004, Mike Morgan wrote: > > I have a perhaps naive Native American Sprachbund question. Put simply, > > what work has been done trying to argue for Sprachbund effects for > > Siouan languages (as a group and/or individually). > > Well, Mary Haas, Dale Nicklas, and Robert Rankin have all argued in > various places, mostly unpublished in the latter two cases, I think, that > Biloxi - inserted in the middle of Muskogean territory - has a > considerable degree of assimilation to Muskogean. Noticeable loans, some > tendency to CV- ~ VC- forms for pronominals, switch reference (with > similar morphemes marking it - not sure if I remember that right?), and so > on. > > I would argue, though I've never developed the arguments formally, that > the many similarities of Crow-Hidatsa and Mandan are in many cases > secondary and seem to reflect strong influence by Crow-Hidatsa on Mandan, > which was originally more like typical Mississippi Valley languages. > > Bob Rankin has a paper - not published I think - that develops a case for > a variety of Central Algonquian influences in Dhegiha. He and others have > also pointed out a regional tendency to use of positionals in the > southeast that extends into Dhegiha. Of course, all Siouan languages make > more or less strong use of positionals, though Dhegiha and Biloxi are > certainly among the champions. However, Winnebago and Mandan also scatter > them about fairly freely. > > The main prehistoric "entity" that might have served to integrate a > Sprachbund include Siouan and other languages would seem to be > "Mississippian" culture or perhaps more narrowly, Cahokian culture. > Unfortunately this waned before the earliest visits, apart from Spanish > raiding across the Southeast in Catawban and Muskogean territory, which > was well organized militarily, but singularly unobservant. De Soto and > company make Lewis & Clark look the California Linguistic Survey. The > details in the memoirs mostly have to do with lengths of marches, > foraging, armaments, numbers living and killed, and absence of gold. > Sometimes they remembered the placenames, mostly with most of the > syllables present and in the right order, surprisingly often even > recognizable, considering the length of the chain of kidnapped > translators. > > > Presumably the languages that would go into such a grouping are out East > > somewhere. And since East is a relative term, I DON'T mean out East like > > where I live, but the original homeland of the Siouans, or some > > intermediate homeland for individual languages of subgroups, assuming > > they stayed there long enough for the effects to take hold. Again > > presumably - and supported by what LITTLE I know of the structure of > > languages that they have been in contact with in recent history - the > > Lakota (and Nakota) Sioux have not been where they currently dwell long > > enough for any such effects (or am I wrong ... again?). > > The most easterly and southerly Siouan languages seem to be fairly recent > arrivals where they are, though the jury is still out on "Tutelo - when > and whence?" The characterization of Siouan as "Eastern" derives from (a) > its known connection with Catawban, (b) its less secure connection with > Iroquoian and Caddoan and Yuchi, and (c) an early and incorrect perception > that the Plains were uninabited/uninhabitable before the horse. The > center of gravity of the Siouan family seems to be something like Missouri > or Iowa. > > If Biloxi is recent on Biloxi Bay, either it assimilated to Muskogean at > break-neck speed, or it started out somewhere where Muskogean languages > were also to be found, e.g., perhaps along the southern edge of the Ohio > Valley? > > Archaeologists generally assign the Dakota-Lakota with various > "manifestations" in Minnesota and the eastern Dakotas, now grouped under > the name Psinomani i.e. psiN omani 'rice gathering', though the more > westerly sites involve earth lodge villages and maize growing. They are > still assembling this from bits and pieces they hadn't previously > associated and I'm not really current on progress. One of the > characteristic "wares" is called Sandy Lake, which is a sort of minimalist > approach to Oneota pottery. > > I'm not sure if Psinomani is deduced from the linguistics, which would be > somewhat risky, or if it is something more. The Northern Plains seem > somewhat negelected generally, and the easterly Dakota area (ranging into > the Great Lakes woodlands) is on the edge of several well-studied areas, > resulting in a tendency not to see connections. (American archaeology > seems to follow the Balkan political model.) I personally wonder if > Psinomani isn't really a case of Siouan languages (Proto-Dakota) spreading > to a bunch of somewhat disparate adjacent groups. Anyway, the consensus is > that the Dakota have been in the more easterly part of the Dakota-speaking > area for a fairly long time, a least 1000 years. > > Most of the uncertainty as to original location and subsequent movement > surrounds Dhegiha. > From mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu Tue Oct 19 22:37:45 2004 From: mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Marianne Mithun) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:37:45 -0700 Subject: Iroqoian and Siouan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, that pretty much sums up my position. I think that a link between Iroquoian and Caddoan is quite promising but by no means established. A link between those two and Siouan is very tantalizing, but even further from being established. On the principle that we don't want to declare relationships until we have enough evidence to be certain, because there can never be a definitive kind of evidence that disproves a relationship, I'd agree that on the basis of our present state of knowledge, we can't consider any of them established relatives. It could be, however, that even on the basis of the data that now exist, a relationship might be shown. Marianne --On Tuesday, October 19, 2004 2:55 PM -0600 ROOD DAVID S wrote: > > There is an article by Wally Chafe in the 1964 American Anthropologist > (vol 66 no. 4 pt. 1, pp. 852-862) entitled "Another Look at Siouan and > Iroquoian" that is just about the whole body of evidence for that > suggested connection. Judging from conversations over the years, I have > the impression that Wally and Marianne are pretty convinced of a > Caddoan/Iroquoian connection, but I'm not sure where they stand on Siouan > right now. It's also worth looking at Lyle Campbell's chapter on Macro > Siouan in his "American Indian Languages: The Historical Linguistics of > Native America", pp. 262-269. He provides a thorough and critical review > of all the long-distance proposals for Siouan. Not surprisingly, he > doesn't think we can consider them related with our present state of > knowledge. > > David > > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Tue, 19 Oct 2004, David Kaufman wrote: > >> -- Biloxi - inserted in the middle of Muskogean territory - has a >> considerable degree of assimilation to Muskogean. -- So, does this mean >> I should be looking at the Muskogean family too in order to better >> understand Biloxi? (Which I intend to do when I get my dictionary and >> subsequent materials.) >> >> -- The characterization of Siouan as "Eastern" derives from (a) its >> known connection with Catawban, (b) its less secure connection with >> Iroquoian and Caddoan and Yuchi -- So there is possibly a connection >> between Iroquoian and Siouan? What evidence would there be of this? >> (I'm also interested in Cherokee, as I mentioned before.) >> >> Thanks. >> >> Dave >> >> Koontz John E wrote: >> On Tue, 19 Oct 2004, Mike Morgan wrote: >> > I have a perhaps naive Native American Sprachbund question. Put simply, >> > what work has been done trying to argue for Sprachbund effects for >> > Siouan languages (as a group and/or individually). >> >> Well, Mary Haas, Dale Nicklas, and Robert Rankin have all argued in >> various places, mostly unpublished in the latter two cases, I think, that >> Biloxi - inserted in the middle of Muskogean territory - has a >> considerable degree of assimilation to Muskogean. Noticeable loans, some >> tendency to CV- ~ VC- forms for pronominals, switch reference (with >> similar morphemes marking it - not sure if I remember that right?), and >> so on. >> >> I would argue, though I've never developed the arguments formally, that >> the many similarities of Crow-Hidatsa and Mandan are in many cases >> secondary and seem to reflect strong influence by Crow-Hidatsa on Mandan, >> which was originally more like typical Mississippi Valley languages. >> >> Bob Rankin has a paper - not published I think - that develops a case for >> a variety of Central Algonquian influences in Dhegiha. He and others have >> also pointed out a regional tendency to use of positionals in the >> southeast that extends into Dhegiha. Of course, all Siouan languages make >> more or less strong use of positionals, though Dhegiha and Biloxi are >> certainly among the champions. However, Winnebago and Mandan also scatter >> them about fairly freely. >> >> The main prehistoric "entity" that might have served to integrate a >> Sprachbund include Siouan and other languages would seem to be >> "Mississippian" culture or perhaps more narrowly, Cahokian culture. >> Unfortunately this waned before the earliest visits, apart from Spanish >> raiding across the Southeast in Catawban and Muskogean territory, which >> was well organized militarily, but singularly unobservant. De Soto and >> company make Lewis & Clark look the California Linguistic Survey. The >> details in the memoirs mostly have to do with lengths of marches, >> foraging, armaments, numbers living and killed, and absence of gold. >> Sometimes they remembered the placenames, mostly with most of the >> syllables present and in the right order, surprisingly often even >> recognizable, considering the length of the chain of kidnapped >> translators. >> >> > Presumably the languages that would go into such a grouping are out >> > East somewhere. And since East is a relative term, I DON'T mean out >> > East like where I live, but the original homeland of the Siouans, or >> > some intermediate homeland for individual languages of subgroups, >> > assuming they stayed there long enough for the effects to take hold. >> > Again presumably - and supported by what LITTLE I know of the >> > structure of languages that they have been in contact with in recent >> > history - the Lakota (and Nakota) Sioux have not been where they >> > currently dwell long enough for any such effects (or am I wrong ... >> > again?). >> >> The most easterly and southerly Siouan languages seem to be fairly recent >> arrivals where they are, though the jury is still out on "Tutelo - when >> and whence?" The characterization of Siouan as "Eastern" derives from (a) >> its known connection with Catawban, (b) its less secure connection with >> Iroquoian and Caddoan and Yuchi, and (c) an early and incorrect >> perception that the Plains were uninabited/uninhabitable before the >> horse. The center of gravity of the Siouan family seems to be something >> like Missouri or Iowa. >> >> If Biloxi is recent on Biloxi Bay, either it assimilated to Muskogean at >> break-neck speed, or it started out somewhere where Muskogean languages >> were also to be found, e.g., perhaps along the southern edge of the Ohio >> Valley? >> >> Archaeologists generally assign the Dakota-Lakota with various >> "manifestations" in Minnesota and the eastern Dakotas, now grouped under >> the name Psinomani i.e. psiN omani 'rice gathering', though the more >> westerly sites involve earth lodge villages and maize growing. They are >> still assembling this from bits and pieces they hadn't previously >> associated and I'm not really current on progress. One of the >> characteristic "wares" is called Sandy Lake, which is a sort of >> minimalist approach to Oneota pottery. >> >> I'm not sure if Psinomani is deduced from the linguistics, which would be >> somewhat risky, or if it is something more. The Northern Plains seem >> somewhat negelected generally, and the easterly Dakota area (ranging into >> the Great Lakes woodlands) is on the edge of several well-studied areas, >> resulting in a tendency not to see connections. (American archaeology >> seems to follow the Balkan political model.) I personally wonder if >> Psinomani isn't really a case of Siouan languages (Proto-Dakota) >> spreading to a bunch of somewhat disparate adjacent groups. Anyway, the >> consensus is that the Dakota have been in the more easterly part of the >> Dakota-speaking area for a fairly long time, a least 1000 years. >> >> Most of the uncertainty as to original location and subsequent movement >> surrounds Dhegiha. >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 19 22:40:41 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:40:41 -0700 Subject: Language documentation funding Message-ID: Hi, I had another question which I wanted to ask before but forgot, not related to any particular language but on the subject of language documentation and research in general: Is it possible to get individual or private funding in some amount when you're not currently academically connected to any university or organization (and, I might add, when one is not independently wealthy)? I'm wondering because I've realized over the last week in ordering material (e.g. the Biloxi dictionary) that it can get expensive if you want to get all the info and material that's out there, but is not free. (Dissertation copies alone are $35 a pop through U M I.) I'm not sure if you HAVE to be part of a university or organization to receive such funding, or if it's possible to do it on one's own. I'm sure there would have to be someone or some group who would have to verify work done or progress made somehow. Anyone have ideas about this? Is it possible, or is this just wishful thinking on my part until if and when I could get accepted into a PhD program or some other organization which could receive such grants on my behalf? (I imagine this, if possible at all, may also be more difficult when working on an "extinct" language such as Biloxi, with only texts, and not actual fieldwork with native speaker informants.) Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU Tue Oct 19 23:18:35 2004 From: John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:18:35 -0600 Subject: Siouan and Sprachbunds In-Reply-To: <20041019201205.65406.qmail@web53803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Oct 2004, David Kaufman wrote: > JEK: Biloxi - inserted in the middle of Muskogean territory - has a > considerable degree of assimilation to Muskogean. > DK: So, does this mean I should be looking at the Muskogean family too > in order to better understand Biloxi? Yes. Or so it seems to me. You can never go wrong knowing about neighboring languages, anyway. If you don't you won't notice any mutual influences. The results may be not unlike my field methods classnotes on Berber, compiled in complete ignorance of Arabic. However, Americanists do have a tendency to concentrate on one family, and I don't think concentrating on one family to the exclusion of others would be a career damaging move. (This is a serious statement, but somewhat tongue in cheek.) Americanists aren't actually ingorant of other families, but they are often specialized in a rather chance collocation of them, and they do tend to specialize. Different groups of people show up at the different family conferences. Apart from the Biloxi connection, it ought to be fairly useful for a Siouanist to know something about Muskogean. Muskogean and Siouan have some general similarities. Going from one Siouan language to another you have the impression somebody's been copying someone else's homework. On the other hand, going from Siouan to Muskogean you think maybe somebody heard the solution from an upper classman but didn't see a copy of it, and had to reverse engineer it. (Going from MVS to CH you have the impression that somebody copied the solution while watching television and playing computer games. Gee, this is fun! None of this analogizing is to be taken seriously!) From John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU Tue Oct 19 23:33:52 2004 From: John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:33:52 -0600 Subject: Siouan and Sprachbunds In-Reply-To: <018c01c4b624$1e9314d0$06b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Oct 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > I've always thought that the extensive changes that Cheyenne and Arapaho > underwent along with the changes that Hidatsa and more especially Crow > underwent might have been part of what is called "Middle Missouri" in > archaeology. (Is that the right term?). This includes the sound change > s --> t /__a in both Algonquian and Crow. These things are hard to > prove though. I almost mentioned the "simple" phonologies of various Plains languages as suspicious, but I didn't think to wonder if it might be connected with Middle Missouri. I'd wonder about Northern Caddoan in connection with this, too, though Coalescent - uniting Middle Missouri and Central Plains is later (c. 1400 AD?). The MM idea, at least, sounds plausible to me, though it might be rather hard to establish, just as Siouan-Muskogean influence would be hard to link to Cahokian Mississippian. At least in the Middle Missouri case the attachments of the languages to particular Middle Missouri manifestations seem well agreed upon (modulo Arapaho and, oddly enough, Crow), and you could think about drawing isoglosses. > John Koontz's research tends to support strong Algonquian contact toward > the north -- in the Illinois country and points north. He found loans > for 'squash', 'bow' and maybe others. I discussed common consonant > cluster treatment (filter, constraint) in an unpublished paper. It's a very small set, I'm afraid, and somewhat controversial. I'd add that I think Bob has noticed a number of Muskogean loans in Siouan, e.g., 'haw' and 'skull'. Some sets of "wandering words" seem to connect all three families. We've discussed most of these in the past two years. Probably a bit more often than the silent majority is happy with, so I'll leave this to list searching. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Wed Oct 20 06:59:31 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 08:59:31 +0200 Subject: Mississippi Valley Ablaut Message-ID: > (Bob) If you have the Siouan fonts from John Koontz's website, I have a historical treatment of the origins of Ablaut I can email. It isn't published but it ought to be readable. (N.B. those Siouan fonts don't work with the Mac.) << Thanks! Although my platform being Mac (OS X 10.3.5) I think that the font should work. Would you plz tell me exactly which one to download. Let's give it a try. :) Alfred BTW, can it be that some of my postings got 'filtered out' so I received no copies back here? Since somehow no longer having access to the list archive, I'm unable to check this. From rankin at ku.edu Wed Oct 20 13:42:56 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 08:42:56 -0500 Subject: Mississippi Valley Ablaut Message-ID: John Boyle asked for a PDF file, so I'll try to make one of those. It should work with the Mac. I can't remember if I used fonts in addition to Siouan SSDoulos or not. And I don't know if you will need them for a .PDF file or not. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alfred W. T?ting" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 1:59 AM Subject: Mississippi Valley Ablaut > > (Bob) If you have the Siouan fonts from John Koontz's website, I have > a historical treatment of the origins of Ablaut I can email. It isn't > published but it ought to be readable. (N.B. those Siouan fonts don't > work with the Mac.) << > > > Thanks! Although my platform being Mac (OS X 10.3.5) I think that the > font should work. Would you plz tell me exactly which one to download. > Let's give it a try. :) > > Alfred > > BTW, can it be that some of my postings got 'filtered out' so I received > no copies back here? Since somehow no longer having access to the list > archive, I'm unable to check this. > > > > > From are2 at buffalo.edu Wed Oct 20 15:21:27 2004 From: are2 at buffalo.edu (are2 at buffalo.edu) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:21:27 -0400 Subject: Mississippi Valley Ablaut In-Reply-To: <026601c4b6aa$b558ae80$06b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Of course, I'd like one, too. If you have problems with the pdf, let me know, maybe I can help. Thanks! Ardis Quoting "R. Rankin" : > John Boyle asked for a PDF file, so I'll try to make one of those. > It should > work with the Mac. I can't remember if I used fonts in addition to > Siouan > SSDoulos or not. And I don't know if you will need them for a .PDF > file or not. > > Bob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alfred W. T?ting" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 1:59 AM > Subject: Mississippi Valley Ablaut > > > > > (Bob) If you have the Siouan fonts from John Koontz's website, I > have > > a historical treatment of the origins of Ablaut I can email. It > isn't > > published but it ought to be readable. (N.B. those Siouan fonts > don't > > work with the Mac.) << > > > > > > Thanks! Although my platform being Mac (OS X 10.3.5) I think that > the > > font should work. Would you plz tell me exactly which one to > download. > > Let's give it a try. :) > > > > Alfred > > > > BTW, can it be that some of my postings got 'filtered out' so I > received > > no copies back here? Since somehow no longer having access to the > list > > archive, I'm unable to check this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Oct 20 15:37:39 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 09:37:39 -0600 Subject: Fonts (Re: Mississippi Valley Ablaut) In-Reply-To: <026601c4b6aa$b558ae80$06b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Oct 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > John Boyle asked for a PDF file, so I'll try to make one of those. It > should work with the Mac. I can't remember if I used fonts in addition > to Siouan SSDoulos or not. And I don't know if you will need them for a > .PDF file or not. I think the fonts are embedded in the PDF file, and that this is the virtue of the PDF format - it allows font embedding. The Adobe Acrobat Writer in Acrobat Professional makes PDF files, and there are a few alternatives. For example, GhostWord (http://www.et.dtu.dk/software/ghostword/), though it isn't quite up to date. It requites you to find and install a version of Ghostview, too. > This installed in Office 2002 for me in Word and Excel. It said it > couldn't handle PowerPoint. It did put the icon in PowerPoint, but it > seems to be inactive. It works in Word, but only on a document you've > already saved. It worked in Excel, too, but said it had an illegal > parameter. My understanding is that it is also possible to convert Windows TTF files to Mac TrueType font files using tools available on the Web, but I don't know the details. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Wed Oct 20 17:06:48 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 19:06:48 +0200 Subject: Mississippi Valley Ablaut Message-ID: >(Bob) John Boyle asked for a PDF file, so I'll try to make one of those. It should work with the Mac. I can't remember if I used fonts in addition to Siouan SSDoulos or not. And I don't know if you will need them for a .PDF file or not. << > (John) I think the fonts are embedded in the PDF file, and that this is the virtue of the PDF format - it allows font embedding... << Yes, as you say, that's the most important feature of PDF that makes it most valuable. One can embed fonts, pictures etc. > (John) My understanding is that it is also possible to convert Windows TTF files to Mac TrueType font files using tools available on the Web, but I don't know the details.on << I once - some versions of Mac OS X ago - converted Window TTF to Mac format and back again (using Fontographer, a professional tool). As it seems now, this is no longer needed with the last OS X versions of Macintosh. So I can give it a try with it. Yet, there might be still one problem: Window documents - even if in Word format - are pretty hard to read by Word for Mac: there's quite some labour to manually remove all those headers etc. and change (i.e. replace by cut & paste) many non-Ascii characters. Alfred From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Wed Oct 20 18:57:57 2004 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:57:57 -0700 Subject: 2005 Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference. In-Reply-To: <004501c4b4b9$75587f60$b8660945@JIMM> Message-ID: For information concerning the Osage I'nlonschka dances in June 2005, the following Osage Nation Directory may be helpful in contacting someone that could help you. This directory can be found on the Official Osage Nation Website at the URL: http://osagetribe.com/ Hope it helps, Jonathan Holmes OSAGE NATION DIRECTORY For general information contact Julia Lookout at (918) 287-5432 31st Osage Tribal Council P.O. Box 779 Pawhuska, OK 74056 (918) 287-5432 Toll Free: 800-320-8742 FAX: (918) 287-2257 Principal Chief Jim Gray Cell: 918-606-4834 Council Member Mark Freeman, JR. Cell: 918-605-1941 Council Member Terry Mason Moore Cell: (918) 605-9674 Council Member Harry Roy Red Eagle Cell: (918) 640-0301 Council Member Jodie Satepauhoodle Cell: (918) 630-3544 Assistant Principal Chief Kenneth H. BigHorse Home: (918) 287-2362 Council Member Jerry Shaw Cell: (918) 640-0306 Council Member Paul Stabler Cell: (918) 605-0131 Council Member Dudley Whitehorn Cell: (918) 760-2399 Council Member John W. Williams Cell: (918) 760-2403 Osage Tribal Council Office 1-800-320-8742 FAX: (918) 287-2257 Council Administrator Jewell Purcell (918) 287-5438 Secretary/Revocable Trust Clerk Bunnie Sullins (918) 287-5433 Administrative Asst. Carrie Rogers (918) 287-5480 Executive Assistant/Comm Julia Lookout (918) 287-5434 Administrative Sec. Sara Taylor (918) 287-5359 Jimm GoodTracks wrote: Bob: I know Carolyn spoke to you how the 3 districts set the dates with Grey Horse always the first one and most regularly set during the first weekend of June. Below you mention coordinating the Conference with the Spring Ilonshka (x3), so as interested persons who attend the Dance(s) could attend the Conference in the evening. There are two dance sessions on Thursday, Friday & Saturday. Sunday session begins about 1~2pm after dinner and lasts usually to 8pm or longer. What I am trying to say is that for those who participate and attend these dances, the evenings are no better than the mornings or afternoons to drive the good distance to be at Kaw Nation for the conference. And yes, many individuals who are interested in Osage language do attend the Ilonshka. As Carolyn says, one needs to wait to the Spring to learn what the dates will be for Hominy and Pawhuska, and in recent years there has been some innovative shuffles of dates as she suggested. Permit me to suggest that the better time to set the Conference date (I think) would be for the weekend in June that is not scheduled for any of the well attended Spring Dance Ceremonies. Even if Kaw was just up the road, rather than the hour (plus) drive from any of the three communities, it would be a competing activity and the Ilonska would win without any need to deliberate. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Rankin" To: Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 11:02 AM Subject: 2005 Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference. >I just returned from Kaw City, OK and the tribal chairman of the Kaw Nation >has > approved our request to hold the 2005 SCLC meeting at the tribal complex > in Kaw > City. Justin McBride, the Kaw language coordinator arranged this for us > and we > owe him a vote of thanks. > > We had discussed the possibility of holding the meeting at the time of the > Osage > dances so that interested persons could attend these in the evenings. > Does > anyone recall what weekend(s) this was? > > Bob --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Oct 20 21:34:12 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:34:12 -0500 Subject: PDF embedded fonts. Message-ID: Yes, ideally and theoretically the necessary fonts are embedded within .pdf documents. However, I have found that this is unfortunately not always the case. Any number of times I have tried to make .pdf files of certain documents, especially using the IroquoianABC font which includes a lot of overstrike characters, and found that the resultant .pdf file did not reproduce the fonts properly. It has also often been the case that material in columns gets shifted around. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. Nor do I know if there is a difference between the outcomes using "distiller" and "pdf writer" choices. I'll give it my best shot though. This is going to take a few days since my home was burglarized Monday and I'm having to deal with a lot of unexpected paperwork. Late next week probably. Bob From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Thu Oct 21 16:47:30 2004 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 09:47:30 -0700 Subject: Iroquoian and Siouan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My 1964 article should hardly be the last word on this. There was so much I didn't know at the time. One should note also that Lyle Campbell stands about as far to the right on these matters as Joe Greenberg stood to the left. An awful lot of work has been done on both Siouan and Iroquoian languages and language families during the last 40 years, and it might be time to take a new look. It's true that Iroquoian and Caddoan have stronger morphological resemblances, but there are certainly some intriguing things between Iroquoian and Siouan. Take, as just one set of examples, Iroquoian *oneNh 'now', *oneNhtsih 'long ago', and *-keNtsih 'old (of humans)', the last only in Seneca. I'm not competent to cite things Siouan, but how about Lakota wanaN 'now', *-xti(N) 'intensifier', and possibly *kaN 'old' (we had some discussion about this one a while ago). Anyway, we shouldn't consider the matter closed. The information, if not the personnel, is now available to do a better job. Wally --On Tuesday, October 19, 2004 2:55 PM -0600 ROOD DAVID S wrote: > There is an article by Wally Chafe in the 1964 American Anthropologist > (vol 66 no. 4 pt. 1, pp. 852-862) entitled "Another Look at Siouan and > Iroquoian" that is just about the whole body of evidence for that > suggested connection. Judging from conversations over the years, I have > the impression that Wally and Marianne are pretty convinced of a > Caddoan/Iroquoian connection, but I'm not sure where they stand on Siouan > right now. It's also worth looking at Lyle Campbell's chapter on Macro > Siouan in his "American Indian Languages: The Historical Linguistics of > Native America", pp. 262-269. He provides a thorough and critical review > of all the long-distance proposals for Siouan. Not surprisingly, he > doesn't think we can consider them related with our present state of > knowledge. > > David From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 24 20:05:44 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 13:05:44 -0700 Subject: Siouan and Iroquoian "buffalo" Message-ID: Hi, I was intrigued to find that the Biloxi word for "buffalo" is yinisa (or nsa abbreviated). The Cherokee word for buffalo is yanssi. Am I totally off the mark in thinking these are somehow related, perhaps through borrowing? Especially since the Biloxi word is so far afield from the northern Siouan (e.g., Hidatsa and Dakota) words for buffalo: mit? and pte. I don't know what the word for buffalo is in other Iroquoian languages (e.g., Seneca or Mohawk) and I don't know what the Muskogean words are. I'm wondering if both the Biloxi and Cherokee words may be borrowed from Muskogean, since both the Biloxi and Cherokee tribes originally bordered on opposite sides of Muskogean territory? Does anyone know the Muskogean (e.g., Creek or Choctaw) words for "buffalo"? (BTW--the Ofo dictionary does not show a word for buffalo.) One other thing: has anyone done comparative wordlists for both the Siouan and Iroquoian families, and/or comparative grammars, that are available and accessible? Thanks, Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Oct 24 20:25:57 2004 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 15:25:57 -0500 Subject: Siouan and Iroquoian "buffalo" In-Reply-To: <20041024200544.86103.qmail@web53803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: David Kaufman wrote: > > I don't know what the word for buffalo is in other Iroquoian languages > (e.g., Seneca or Mohawk) and I don't know what the Muskogean words > are. I'm wondering if both the Biloxi and Cherokee words may be > borrowed from Muskogean, since both the Biloxi and Cherokee tribes > originally bordered on opposite sides of Muskogean territory? Does > anyone know the Muskogean (e.g., Creek or Choctaw) words for "buffalo"? Creek yan?sa [acute on second a], Chickasaw yanash. Alan From munro at ucla.edu Sun Oct 24 20:33:19 2004 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 13:33:19 -0700 Subject: Siouan and Iroquoian "buffalo" In-Reply-To: <20041024200544.86103.qmail@web53803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Creek yanasa, Choctaw yanash. Pam David Kaufman wrote: > Hi, > > I was intrigued to find that the Biloxi word for "buffalo" is yinisa > (or nsa abbreviated). The Cherokee word for buffalo is yanssi. Am I > totally off the mark in thinking these are somehow related, perhaps > through borrowing? Especially since the Biloxi word is so far afield > from the northern Siouan (e.g., Hidatsa and Dakota) words for buffalo: > mit? and pte. I don't know what the word for buffalo is in other > Iroquoian languages (e.g., Seneca or Mohawk) and I don't know what the > Muskogean words are. I'm wondering if both the Biloxi and Cherokee > words may be borrowed from Muskogean, since both the Biloxi and > Cherokee tribes originally bordered on opposite sides of Muskogean > territory? Does anyone know the Muskogean (e.g., Creek or Choctaw) > words for "buffalo"? (BTW--the Ofo dictionary does not show a word > for buffalo.) > > One other thing: has anyone done comparative wordlists for both the > Siouan and Iroquoian families, and/or comparative grammars, that are > available and accessible? > > Thanks, > > Dave > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > -- ---- Pamela Munro Professor, Department of Linguistics, UCLA UCLA Box 951543 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 USA http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/linguistics/people/munro/munro.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 25 00:11:13 2004 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 17:11:13 -0700 Subject: Siouan and Iroquoian "buffalo" In-Reply-To: <417C118F.8010202@ucla.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Pam and Alan. This seems to confirm my suspicions that Tsalagi yanssi and Biloxi yinisa are Muskogean in origin, cognate with Creek yanasa and Choctaw/Chickasaw yanash. In the case of Tsalagi, I'll be even more convinced if the other Iroquoian words (of Tsalagi's cousins in the north) turn out to be quite different! Dave Pamela Munro wrote: Creek yanasa, Choctaw yanash. Pam David Kaufman wrote: Hi, I was intrigued to find that the Biloxi word for "buffalo" is yinisa (or nsa abbreviated). The Cherokee word for buffalo is yanssi. Am I totally off the mark in thinking these are somehow related, perhaps through borrowing? Especially since the Biloxi word is so far afield from the northern Siouan (e.g., Hidatsa and Dakota) words for buffalo: mit? and pte. I don't know what the word for buffalo is in other Iroquoian languages (e.g., Seneca or Mohawk) and I don't know what the Muskogean words are. I'm wondering if both the Biloxi and Cherokee words may be borrowed from Muskogean, since both the Biloxi and Cherokee tribes originally bordered on opposite sides of Muskogean territory? Does anyone know the Muskogean (e.g., Creek or Choctaw) words for "buffalo"? (BTW--the Ofo dictionary does not show a word for buffalo.) One other thing: has anyone done comparative wordlists for both the Siouan and Iroquoian families, and/or comparative grammars, that are available and accessible? Thanks, Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- ----Pamela MunroProfessor, Department of Linguistics, UCLAUCLA Box 951543Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 USAhttp://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/linguistics/people/munro/munro.htm --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Mon Oct 25 00:23:18 2004 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 17:23:18 -0700 Subject: Same word, different meanings In-Reply-To: <20041025001113.13305.qmail@web53809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Recently I have seen the same Omaha/Ponca word in different texts with three different meanings ascribed to it. noNzhiN - arise or to stand noNzhiN - rain noNzhiN - young boy Are these meanings correct depending on the context they are used? Does the meaning change depending on other words used in conjuction with it? Is one meaning correct and the other two the result of mis-translation? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kdshea at ku.edu Mon Oct 25 03:37:38 2004 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 22:37:38 -0500 Subject: Same word, different meanings Message-ID: The first two are homonyms, with both vowels being nasal. The third word is a compound of nu 'man (male)' and zhiNga 'little, young.' (I'm not familiar with the truncated form nuzhiN.) The word noNzhiN (naNzhiN with Ponca spelling) meaning 'to stand, standing' can occur after the main verb, functioning as an auxiliary with "durative" aspectual meaning: naNzhiN naNzhiN 'It keeps on raining.' Kathy Shea ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Holmes To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 7:23 PM Subject: Same word, different meanings Recently I have seen the same Omaha/Ponca word in different texts with three different meanings ascribed to it. noNzhiN - arise or to stand noNzhiN - rain noNzhiN - young boy Are these meanings correct depending on the context they are used? Does the meaning change depending on other words used in conjuction with it? Is one meaning correct and the other two the result of mis-translation? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kdshea at ku.edu Mon Oct 25 04:26:02 2004 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 23:26:02 -0500 Subject: Ponca - pathanike? Message-ID: I'm sort of late commenting on this message and haven't yet caught up with reading later messages, but I couldn't let this one pass since I think I have an answer. Uncle Parrish (Williams), the 91-year-old elder and fluent Ponca speaker who is my consultant remembers accompanying his parents as a child to one of the dance societies that were in existence at that time among the Southern Poncas. The three that he mentioned (with the Ponca accepted spelling in parentheses) were nudaN (nudaN) 'warrior,' ppa dhattaN (pa thataN) 'strong/bitter drink/drinkers' (a translation not offered by Uncle Parrish but that I surmised from the common translation of the name of a currently active dance society--I believe under the sponsorship of Grandma Rosetta [Arkeketa] LeClair at Burr Hill--ppa dhac^aN [pa thachaN] 'strong drinkers'), and ppa dhiNge (pa thiNge). (As I recall, Uncle Parrish said that the first, nudaN, took place in a longhouse near the present-day Ponca Indian Baptist Church, and the other two, each in a round house, were located west of White Eagle, towards present-day Marland, and were sponsored by persons with the last names Jones and Roy, respectively.) Although Uncle Parrish didn't offer an explanation for any of the dance societies' names except nudaN, I was told by another Ponca speaker that ppa (pa), with the meaning of 'strong, bitter' (unrelated to the meaning 'nose, head, profile' of its homonym) refers to the strong coffee that the members of pa thataN drank as opposed to the members of pa thiNge, who didn't have any--or ran out of--coffee (thiNge ' to lack, to be without'). I hope this sheds some light on a possible meaning for the term "ppa dhiNge" if, in fact, that's the word (phrase) in the song you mention. Kathy Shea ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Holmes To: Siouan List Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 9:37 PM Subject: Ponca - pathanike? Just wondering... In a document of transcribed Ponca Songs, being: Warrior, Sylvester and Lamont Brown. 1967. Ponca Songs Sung and Translated. Recorded by Tyronne H. Stewart, October 1967 at Oklahoma City, OK. Transcribed by Earl C. Fenner and Jon Orens. ...on page 10, is listed a song that the commentary says, "This song, he's calling his friend. He had gone on the war path. At the beginning of the second part, 'pathanike', that we don't know. It's an ancient word which we have never learned as to what it means. But the first two words is 'kotha nuda he tha', it means 'friend had been on the war path.' I was wondering if anyone may want to take a crack at trying to figure out what the old Ponca term pathanike might mean. I'm pretty sure 'pa' means 'head' or 'first'. Jonathan Holmes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kdshea at ku.edu Mon Oct 25 04:46:47 2004 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 23:46:47 -0500 Subject: Ponca - pathanike? Message-ID: Whoops! When switching between writing systems, I've been forgetting to write as a geminate /c^c^/ (sometimes a phoneme in its own right and sometimes the affricated alternative to /tt/ as it is in the following): /ppa dhac^c^aN/ (pa thachaN in common Ponca orthography) 'Strong Drinkers' (a Southern Ponca dance society). Kathy ----- Original Message ----- From: Kathleen Shea To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 11:26 PM Subject: Re: Ponca - pathanike? I'm sort of late commenting on this message and haven't yet caught up with reading later messages, but I couldn't let this one pass since I think I have an answer. Uncle Parrish (Williams), the 91-year-old elder and fluent Ponca speaker who is my consultant remembers accompanying his parents as a child to one of the dance societies that were in existence at that time among the Southern Poncas. The three that he mentioned (with the Ponca accepted spelling in parentheses) were nudaN (nudaN) 'warrior,' ppa dhattaN (pa thataN) 'strong/bitter drink/drinkers' (a translation not offered by Uncle Parrish but that I surmised from the common translation of the name of a currently active dance society--I believe under the sponsorship of Grandma Rosetta [Arkeketa] LeClair at Burr Hill--ppa dhac^aN [pa thachaN] 'strong drinkers'), and ppa dhiNge (pa thiNge). (As I recall, Uncle Parrish said that the first, nudaN, took place in a longhouse near the present-day Ponca Indian Baptist Church, and the other two, each in a round house, were located west of White Eagle, towards present-day Marland, and were sponsored by persons with the last names Jones and Roy, respectively.) Although Uncle Parrish didn't offer an explanation for any of the dance societies' names except nudaN, I was told by another Ponca speaker that ppa (pa), with the meaning of 'strong, bitter' (unrelated to the meaning 'nose, head, profile' of its homonym) refers to the strong coffee that the members of pa thataN drank as opposed to the members of pa thiNge, who didn't have any--or ran out of--coffee (thiNge ' to lack, to be without'). I hope this sheds some light on a possible meaning for the term "ppa dhiNge" if, in fact, that's the word (phrase) in the song you mention. Kathy Shea ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Holmes To: Siouan List Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 9:37 PM Subject: Ponca - pathanike? Just wondering... In a document of transcribed Ponca Songs, being: Warrior, Sylvester and Lamont Brown. 1967. Ponca Songs Sung and Translated. Recorded by Tyronne H. Stewart, October 1967 at Oklahoma City, OK. Transcribed by Earl C. Fenner and Jon Orens. ...on page 10, is listed a song that the commentary says, "This song, he's calling his friend. He had gone on the war path. At the beginning of the second part, 'pathanike', that we don't know. It's an ancient word which we have never learned as to what it means. But the first two words is 'kotha nuda he tha', it means 'friend had been on the war path.' I was wondering if anyone may want to take a crack at trying to figure out what the old Ponca term pathanike might mean. I'm pretty sure 'pa' means 'head' or 'first'. Jonathan Holmes ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Mon Oct 25 08:25:41 2004 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:25:41 +0100 Subject: Siouan and Iroquoian "buffalo" Message-ID: Allan Taylor had an artcle on this very word in IJAL in 1976 and adduced similar forms in Natchez and Tunica, with parallels in Navajo (!) and Caddo. It's a widespread Southeastern Wanderwort. Anthony >>> dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com 25/10/2004 01:11:13 >>> Thanks Pam and Alan. This seems to confirm my suspicions that Tsalagi yanssi and Biloxi yinisa are Muskogean in origin, cognate with Creek yanasa and Choctaw/Chickasaw yanash. In the case of Tsalagi, I'll be even more convinced if the other Iroquoian words (of Tsalagi's cousins in the north) turn out to be quite different! Dave Pamela Munro wrote: Creek yanasa, Choctaw yanash. Pam David Kaufman wrote: Hi, I was intrigued to find that the Biloxi word for "buffalo" is yinisa (or nsa abbreviated). The Cherokee word for buffalo is yanssi. Am I totally off the mark in thinking these are somehow related, perhaps through borrowing? Especially since the Biloxi word is so far afield from the northern Siouan (e.g., Hidatsa and Dakota) words for buffalo: mit? and pte. I don't know what the word for buffalo is in other Iroquoian languages (e.g., Seneca or Mohawk) and I don't know what the Muskogean words are. I'm wondering if both the Biloxi and Cherokee words may be borrowed from Muskogean, since both the Biloxi and Cherokee tribes originally bordered on opposite sides of Muskogean territory? Does anyone know the Muskogean (e.g., Creek or Choctaw) words for "buffalo"? (BTW--the Ofo dictionary does not show a word for buffalo.) One other thing: has anyone done comparative wordlists for both the Siouan and Iroquoian families, and/or comparative grammars, that are available and accessible? Thanks, Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- ----Pamela MunroProfessor, Department of Linguistics, UCLAUCLA Box 951543Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 USAhttp://www.humnet.uucla.edu/humnet/linguistics/people/munro/munro.htm --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Oct 25 15:09:53 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 10:09:53 -0500 Subject: Same word, different meanings In-Reply-To: <002f01c4ba43$fa570a80$8a09ed81@9afl3> Message-ID: I don't think the first two words are actually homonyms, at least in Omaha. Our speakers definitely distinguish them, and pronounce them with a somewhat different tonal contour that I haven't really been able to pin down yet. I'll have to raise this with them again. I'd be interested in knowing the full context of the noNz^iN Jonathan has found for 'young boy'. The usual word for 'boy' is nu'z^iNga, literally 'little man', as Kathy indicates. The final -ga at the end is common with animate nouns and some stative verbs, and is often dropped (or never existed) when the word is in a leading position in a compound. I suspect it was originally an independent classificatory particle (in MVS or earlier) that functioned as a generalizer. The best evidence for that hypothesis would probably be nu - 'man' nu'ga - male (animal) miN - 'woman' (originally) miN'ga - female (animal) As for nu -> noN, the leading [n] would force the following vowel to be initially nasal, which could lead to nuN. And since uN -> oN/aN in OP (and I think Dhegiha generally), that could lead to an interpretation as noN. Also, even away from nasal consonants, I have to admit to sometimes having a little trouble distinguishing [u] from [aN] at times in unaccented syllables in extended speech. Maybe these factors played in the recording of nuz^iN- as noNz^iN ? Rory "Kathleen Shea" Sent by: To owner-siouan at list s.colorado.edu cc Subject 10/24/2004 10:37 Re: Same word, different meanings PM Please respond to siouan at lists.colo rado.edu The first two are homonyms, with both vowels being nasal. The third word is a compound of nu 'man (male)' and zhiNga 'little, young.' (I'm not familiar with the truncated form nuzhiN.) The word noNzhiN (naNzhiN with Ponca spelling) meaning 'to stand, standing' can occur after the main verb, functioning as an auxiliary with "durative" aspectual meaning: naNzhiN naNzhiN 'It keeps on raining.' Kathy Shea ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Holmes To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 7:23 PM Subject: Same word, different meanings Recently I have seen the same Omaha/Ponca word in different texts with three different meanings ascribed to it. noNzhiN - arise or to stand noNzhiN - rain noNzhiN - young boy Are these meanings correct depending on the context they are used? Does the meaning change depending on other words used in conjuction with it? Is one meaning correct and the other two the result of mis-translation? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Mon Oct 25 15:57:07 2004 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 08:57:07 -0700 Subject: Siouan and Iroquoian "buffalo" In-Reply-To: <20041025001113.13305.qmail@web53809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Seneca for buffalo is degiya'goh (accent on a and nasalized o). Apparently this comes from *yotekriya'koh or something similar. Cayuga and Onondaga have similar words. It isn't clear what the word means. Wally From mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu Mon Oct 25 16:17:46 2004 From: mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Marianne Mithun) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:17:46 -0700 Subject: Siouan and Iroquoian "buffalo" In-Reply-To: <1C6EE5238E283C9A3D5C3F38@[192.168.2.34]> Message-ID: The other Northern languages, Mohawk, Oneida, Tuscarora, etc. have words based on the same stem as the Seneca, so not like Cherokee. Marianne --On Monday, October 25, 2004 8:57 AM -0700 Wallace Chafe wrote: > Seneca for buffalo is degiya'goh (accent on a and nasalized o). > Apparently this comes from *yotekriya'koh or something similar. Cayuga > and Onondaga have similar words. It isn't clear what the word means. Wally > From tmleonard at cox.net Mon Oct 25 17:03:55 2004 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:03:55 -0500 Subject: Same word, different meanings Message-ID: I agree with Kathy's findings 100%. The Ponca word for 'boy' is definitely "nu'z^iNga" (man-little). Perhaps Jonathan derived "noNzhiN" from a Ponca song (?). Sometimes in Ponca songs "nu'z^iNga" can sound like "noNzhiN". In Ponca songs you often hear "nu'z^iNga" (young man) or "s^e nu'zhiNga" (that young man) or "s^e nu'zhiNga ama"(those young men-often referring to veterans). You can also hear "naNzhiN" (to stand or get up) or "naNzhiN ga" (stand up!). In Ponca songs sometimes that "ga" changes to "ge" depending upon the song. "naNzhiN" can also drift over to "nozhiN" or "noNzhiN", as well. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Oct 25 22:43:42 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:43:42 -0600 Subject: Two Suggestions on Formatting Follow-Up Posts Message-ID: Follow ups are the soul of a discussion list, and I've been noticing recently, not entirely from the Siouan list, that there are two approaches to formatting follow ups that materially improve the readability of a list. 1) Always edit down the material in the original liberally. Don't include the whole original post. It is seldom necessary to include more than those bits of the immediately post that you wish to address. Once in a while you may end up needing to include parts of posts before the one you are responding to. There's a certain superficial honesty in including everything, but posts in a given thread get longer and longer when this is done, and it is wasteful of time and space. People who want the whole message can always refer back. If they didn't keep a copy, they can look at the archives. If you edit the original(s) to the minimum necessary to justify your response, it is easier for others to follow your thoughts. The author of the original post can always complain if you take their remarks out of context. 2) Put your comments after the original material on which you are commenting, not in front of it. Humans process things better in topic and comment order. You can write an introduction if you feel you need it for initial context. These are not presented as hard and fast rules, but only as suggestions. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Oct 25 22:59:20 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 17:59:20 -0500 Subject: Same word, different meanings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rory wrote: > I don't think the first two words are actually homonyms, > at least in Omaha. Our speakers definitely distinguish > them, and pronounce them with a somewhat different tonal > contour that I haven't really been able to pin down yet. > I'll have to raise this with them again. Just did that, and got shot down. This time our speaker held that noNz^iN 'stand' and noNz^iN 'rain' are in fact homonyms, as Kathy originally stated. (She started to cramp up just about the moment I took the opportunity to ask her, so I failed to get a very clear rendition of the word from her, and possibly 'homonym' was the least painful answer for her to give at that moment.) She did confirm Kathy's noNz^iN noNz^iN, and augmented it in repetition to S^ettaN'na naNz^iN' naNz^iN'. Still rain stands It's still raining. In any case, I'd like to retract the above cited paragraph, at least for now. Sorry about that. Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Oct 26 00:07:37 2004 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 18:07:37 -0600 Subject: Same word, different meanings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > Just did that, and got shot down. This time our speaker > held that noNz^iN 'stand' and noNz^iN 'rain' are in fact > homonyms, as Kathy originally stated. ... > S^ettaN'na naNz^iN' naNz^iN'. > Still rain stands > It's still raining. This is just the reaction I got in 1985, with the same example, almost. I got just: NaNz^iN naNz^iN. 'It keeps on raining.' This was considered a bit along the lines of word play, I think, though not characterized as humorous. It was just considered interesting that you could say this. Mind you, this kind of assurance from a native speaker doesn't apply if you can actually hear a difference or find a test that demonstrates that the speakers themselves hear one they aren't aware of. For example, record several tokens of each, shuffle them into a known order, and see if people can usually distinguish 'He's standing' from 'It's raining'. Even if it's proverbial that it's hard to tell, and a source of humor, etc., there might be a difference. For example, my understanding is that American English speakers have trouble hearing some vowel contrasts. I think cot : caught is notorious in this regard. Some folks contrast the pair, some don't and some do, but think they don't. Some don't but think they do. I think there is instrumental evidence that some people who think there is no contrast make one. Apart from this, two similar forms might differ in some intonational contexts, but not in others. For example, they might sound the same in isolation, but behave differently following a particular preceding forms, etc. Anyway, I couldn't hear one myself in this case, apart from the first being overall higher than the second in the example - presumably due to downstepping in a phrase - but I don't entirely trust my ear with it, so that Rory's report of a subtle difference didn't strike me as at all implausible. In isolation the two forms certainly sounded the same to me. Isn't there a 'hair' form that falls into this homophonous set, too, in OP but not in the rest of Dhegiha? From kdshea at ku.edu Tue Oct 26 05:34:37 2004 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 00:34:37 -0500 Subject: Same word, different meanings Message-ID: Yes, there's a similar word naNzhiNha 'hair (on the head).' I don't think there's any reason for Rory to apologize since vowel length, pitch accent, and intonation in Omaha-Ponca seem to interact in ways that I don't think any of us have quite figured out. There are so many apparent homonyms in the language that I keep wondering if perhaps I'm missing something. When I ask speakers about two words, I sometimes get a shrug and they say that they sound "about the same"; on the other hand, I some speakers think there should be no homonyms in a language and try to make an artificial distinction between two words that probably sound the same. But I haven't really worked with enough speakers to generalize to such an extent! By the way, I've had two speakers recently insist that the Omaha-Ponca indefinite article wi 'a, one' does not contain a nasal vowel (as opposed to Dorsey's transcription). I originally transcribed the word with an oral vowel, as _wi_, in a rabbit story but then changed it to be in synch with Dorsey's transcription! This points up the difficulty of distinguishing oral from nasal vowels at the ends of words in Omaha-Ponca, especially /i/ from /iN/ or among /ii/, /iNiN/, /iNi/ (all possiblities). Kathy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: "Siouan List" Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 7:07 PM Subject: Re: Same word, different meanings > On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > Just did that, and got shot down. This time our speaker > > held that noNz^iN 'stand' and noNz^iN 'rain' are in fact > > homonyms, as Kathy originally stated. ... > > > S^ettaN'na naNz^iN' naNz^iN'. > > Still rain stands > > It's still raining. > > This is just the reaction I got in 1985, with the same example, almost. I > got just: > > NaNz^iN naNz^iN. 'It keeps on raining.' > > This was considered a bit along the lines of word play, I think, though > not characterized as humorous. It was just considered interesting that > you could say this. > > Mind you, this kind of assurance from a native speaker doesn't apply if > you can actually hear a difference or find a test that demonstrates that > the speakers themselves hear one they aren't aware of. For example, > record several tokens of each, shuffle them into a known order, and see if > people can usually distinguish 'He's standing' from 'It's raining'. Even > if it's proverbial that it's hard to tell, and a source of humor, etc., > there might be a difference. > > For example, my understanding is that American English speakers have > trouble hearing some vowel contrasts. I think cot : caught is notorious > in this regard. Some folks contrast the pair, some don't and some do, but > think they don't. Some don't but think they do. I think there is > instrumental evidence that some people who think there is no contrast make > one. > > Apart from this, two similar forms might differ in some intonational > contexts, but not in others. For example, they might sound the same in > isolation, but behave differently following a particular preceding forms, > etc. > > Anyway, I couldn't hear one myself in this case, apart from the first > being overall higher than the second in the example - presumably due to > downstepping in a phrase - but I don't entirely trust my ear with it, so > that Rory's report of a subtle difference didn't strike me as at all > implausible. In isolation the two forms certainly sounded the same to me. > > Isn't there a 'hair' form that falls into this homophonous set, too, in > OP but not in the rest of Dhegiha? > From kdshea at ku.edu Tue Oct 26 05:49:04 2004 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 00:49:04 -0500 Subject: [Spam:0011 SpamScore] Re: Omaha-Ponca words Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 3:33 PM Subject: [Spam:0011 SpamScore] Re: Omaha-Ponca words > Proper spelling is an interesting question. Quite a number of internally > consistent, more or less satisfactory orthographies have been used with > Omaha-Ponca. The best candidates for "proper spelling" in the context of > your efforts are probably the current popular orthographies for Omaha and > Ponca, which are similar, but not quite the same, though not in ways that > reflect the similar "similar, but not quite the same" situation with > respect to Omaha and Ponca speech. The differences are simply slight > arbitrary differences in the spelling scheme. I'll try to provide forms > in the Omaha version. Neither of these schemes is trictly speaking > "official," but the are both in active use within the two tribes, and > backed by committee efforts. The governing Ponca Business Committee adopted and approved the alphabetic writing system developed by the Ponca Language Arts Council, to which you refer above, as the "primary learning system of the Ponca Tribe of Oklahoma" (Resolution No. 35-042000, April 20, 2000). From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Oct 26 06:04:47 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:04:47 +0200 Subject: Same word, different meanings Message-ID: >> (Rory) S^ettaN'na naNz^iN' naNz^iN'. Still rain stands It's still raining. <<<< > (John) Igot just: NaNz^iN naNz^iN. 'It keeps on raining.' This was considered a bit along the lines of word play, I think, though not characterized as humorous. It was just considered interesting that you could say this. << This reminds me of Hungarian: M?g esik az es? Still falls the rain (It's still raining) Here, the two words are no homonyms but two forms of the same word 'to fall' i.e. "(it)falls the falling". BTW, NaNz^iN naNz^iN. 'It KEEPS ON raining' looks like sort of reduplication ;-) Alfred From cstelfer at ucalgary.ca Wed Oct 27 02:18:31 2004 From: cstelfer at ucalgary.ca (Corey Telfer) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:18:31 -0600 Subject: PDF embedded fonts. In-Reply-To: <030301c4b6ec$8bdf70b0$06b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Hi all, I had a bear of a time making your PDF file come out right Bob, but eventually I made it work. The first copy I printed out had a lot of fonts wrong, and I only figured that out because I happened to be familiar with the words in question. I went back to the computer and eventually made it better, but I'm still not 100% certain that I have all the right characters in my copy. If you could provide it as a word document and provide us with the fonts, that might work better... I'm sorry to hear that your house was broken into and I hope nothing too valuable was lost. Corey Telfer University of Calgary "R. Rankin" said: > Yes, ideally and theoretically the necessary fonts are embedded within .pdf > documents. However, I have found that this is unfortunately not always the > case. Any number of times I have tried to make .pdf files of certain documents, > especially using the IroquoianABC font which includes a lot of overstrike > characters, and found that the resultant .pdf file did not reproduce the fonts > properly. It has also often been the case that material in columns gets shifted > around. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. Nor do I know if there is a > difference between the outcomes using "distiller" and "pdf writer" choices. > I'll give it my best shot though. > > This is going to take a few days since my home was burglarized Monday and I'm > having to deal with a lot of unexpected paperwork. Late next week probably. > > Bob > > -- From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Wed Oct 27 06:00:09 2004 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:00:09 +0200 Subject: Same word, different meanings Message-ID: John, thanks a lot for your enlightening comment. I also had the scenery in mind you're describing (although never having been to Sioux land - but it might be comparable in this respect to that of Alaska or also the Puszta in Hungary). I posted off-list b/c according to your (private) reply. But I can also put it to the list (see below). Thanks. >>> On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: BTW, NaNz^iN naNz^iN. 'It KEEPS ON raining' looks like sort of reduplication ;-) <<<<<< >>It looks like reduplication here, but the first verb is 'it rains' and the second is 'it stands', so this is 'it stands raining', not 'it rains [and] rains'. Duratives are formed with the current verbs 'to stand', 'to sit' and 'to walk'. I don't recall a case with 'to lie' at the moment. The verb chosen depends on semantic features of the process that endures. The Omahas providing these examples are aware that 'rain' and various other things 'stand' when they keep on happening.<<<< >Thanks, now I got it. So the two words are real homophones - and my Hungarian example had nothing to do with this issue :( What seems interesting to me is that the O-P idea behind this use is different from that in English or German: 'it goes on (raining etc.)' - 'der Regen geht weiter'/es regnet weiter' which indicates kind of movement/progression, whereas O-P 'stand'/'sit' denotes that an action is lasting/remaining/standing still. - Okay, this doesn't hold for O-P 'to walk' :) Thanks again Alfred<< (John's answer): This came to me as opposed to the list. I don't know if that was accidental or deliberate, so I'll respond off list. You're welcome to post your original and/or this if you like. In Siouan languages (and OP is typical of them in this respect) on-going processes are characterized in terms of shapes or postures, and the standard four "shapes" for Dhegiha are standing/vertically extended, sitting/compact, lying/horizontally extended, and moving. For example, the corresponding animate obviative articles are tHaN, dhiNkHe, khe, dhiN, corresponding to the durative auxiliaries naNz^iN, gdhiN, (z^aN ?), maNdhiN. I'm not sure that the "goes/keeps on, continues" idea is quite the same, i.e., the construction in German and English uses verbs that may or may not involve a root for motion, but as a whole reflects an idiom for "continue." The OP form uses a verb that describes an enduring shape or posture. When 'walk' appears it refers to things that progress in space or time (e.g., health) while at the same time persisting across time. So the motion verb element figures in different ways. The persistance in time is the dimension of motion in the German and English cases. The motion that the thing in question experiences while persisting is the dimension of motion in the OP case. Incidentally, out on the plains you can see rain falling in other places a long way off. Most places nothing obstructs the view of this - few trees, no really high hills, and no misty, foggy air. I've had visitors remark on this a lot. I remember once driving up to a visible wall of rain in Wyoming, passing into the area being rained on, and coming out on the other side after a while. If I'd parked beside the road, the rain would have come up to me and passed over me. I guess that would have been walking rain! The long plumes of rain descending from the distant clouds to the ground are very noticeable. Anyway, I think "standing" refers to the visible vertical path of falling rain, near or far. I suspect rain could also 'walk' as above, but this would suggest the visible progress of a storm across space. Varying the "shape" gender of a thing or activity is something that OP manipulates for descriptive affect, at least in some cases. I'll have to look up some examples of 'walk' as a durative. From rankin at ku.edu Fri Oct 29 04:38:16 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 23:38:16 -0500 Subject: Same word, different meanings Message-ID: 'To stand' has a long nasal a:N. Dunno about 'rain' Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: "Siouan List" Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 7:07 PM Subject: Re: Same word, different meanings > On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > Just did that, and got shot down. This time our speaker > > held that noNz^iN 'stand' and noNz^iN 'rain' are in fact > > homonyms, as Kathy originally stated. ... > > > S^ettaN'na naNz^iN' naNz^iN'. > > Still rain stands > > It's still raining. > > This is just the reaction I got in 1985, with the same example, almost. I > got just: > > NaNz^iN naNz^iN. 'It keeps on raining.' > > This was considered a bit along the lines of word play, I think, though > not characterized as humorous. It was just considered interesting that > you could say this. > > Mind you, this kind of assurance from a native speaker doesn't apply if > you can actually hear a difference or find a test that demonstrates that > the speakers themselves hear one they aren't aware of. For example, > record several tokens of each, shuffle them into a known order, and see if > people can usually distinguish 'He's standing' from 'It's raining'. Even > if it's proverbial that it's hard to tell, and a source of humor, etc., > there might be a difference. > > For example, my understanding is that American English speakers have > trouble hearing some vowel contrasts. I think cot : caught is notorious > in this regard. Some folks contrast the pair, some don't and some do, but > think they don't. Some don't but think they do. I think there is > instrumental evidence that some people who think there is no contrast make > one. > > Apart from this, two similar forms might differ in some intonational > contexts, but not in others. For example, they might sound the same in > isolation, but behave differently following a particular preceding forms, > etc. > > Anyway, I couldn't hear one myself in this case, apart from the first > being overall higher than the second in the example - presumably due to > downstepping in a phrase - but I don't entirely trust my ear with it, so > that Rory's report of a subtle difference didn't strike me as at all > implausible. In isolation the two forms certainly sounded the same to me. > > Isn't there a 'hair' form that falls into this homophonous set, too, in > OP but not in the rest of Dhegiha? > > From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Fri Oct 29 13:25:44 2004 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 08:25:44 -0500 Subject: Same word, different meanings Message-ID: In Osage, 'to stand' has a long nasal a:N. 'To rain', on the other hand, is either ni'z^u or nu'z^u, where the first syllable vowel is not long, or at least is not so long as the a:N in 'to stand'. I don't write 'rain' with a long vowel. Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: "R. Rankin" Sent: Oct 28, 2004 11:38 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Same word, different meanings 'To stand' has a long nasal a:N. Dunno about 'rain' Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: "Siouan List" Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 7:07 PM Subject: Re: Same word, different meanings > On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Rory M Larson wrote: > > Just did that, and got shot down. This time our speaker > > held that noNz^iN 'stand' and noNz^iN 'rain' are in fact > > homonyms, as Kathy originally stated. ... > > > S^ettaN'na naNz^iN' naNz^iN'. > > Still rain stands > > It's still raining. > > This is just the reaction I got in 1985, with the same example, almost. I > got just: > > NaNz^iN naNz^iN. 'It keeps on raining.' > > This was considered a bit along the lines of word play, I think, though > not characterized as humorous. It was just considered interesting that > you could say this. > > Mind you, this kind of assurance from a native speaker doesn't apply if > you can actually hear a difference or find a test that demonstrates that > the speakers themselves hear one they aren't aware of. For example, > record several tokens of each, shuffle them into a known order, and see if > people can usually distinguish 'He's standing' from 'It's raining'. Even > if it's proverbial that it's hard to tell, and a source of humor, etc., > there might be a difference. > > For example, my understanding is that American English speakers have > trouble hearing some vowel contrasts. I think cot : caught is notorious > in this regard. Some folks contrast the pair, some don't and some do, but > think they don't. Some don't but think they do. I think there is > instrumental evidence that some people who think there is no contrast make > one. > > Apart from this, two similar forms might differ in some intonational > contexts, but not in others. For example, they might sound the same in > isolation, but behave differently following a particular preceding forms, > etc. > > Anyway, I couldn't hear one myself in this case, apart from the first > being overall higher than the second in the example - presumably due to > downstepping in a phrase - but I don't entirely trust my ear with it, so > that Rory's report of a subtle difference didn't strike me as at all > implausible. In isolation the two forms certainly sounded the same to me. > > Isn't there a 'hair' form that falls into this homophonous set, too, in > OP but not in the rest of Dhegiha? > > From rankin at ku.edu Fri Oct 29 14:24:24 2004 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:24:24 -0500 Subject: Kaw and Osage 'rain', 'stand' and 'boy' Message-ID: Carolyn writes: > In Osage, 'to stand' has a long nasal a:N. 'To rain', on the other hand, is either ni'z^u or nu'z^u, where the first syllable vowel is not long, or at least is not so long as the a:N in 'to stand'. I don't write 'rain' with a long vowel. Ditto in Kansa. naaNz^iN' 'stand' (1st syll. long, second accented) nuz^u' 'rain' (1st syll short, second accented, /u/ is a front-rounded V as in French) 'Boy' would be dissimilar in any event since we don't have the exact equivalent, morph for morph. Omaha nu would be Kaw do- 'male', and 'little' would, of course, be z^iNga if it is a full-fledged stative verb (or adjective if you like). It would be reduced to hiNnga, where ng is just a velar nasal, if the last part of the compound is just a diminutive marker. Dorsey didn't make this last distinction, but Mrs. Rowe always did. So Kaw and Osage have no homonyms among these three. Bob From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Sat Oct 30 01:37:31 2004 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:37:31 -0700 Subject: Same word, different meanings In-Reply-To: <086f01c4bd71$1cfa0d00$16b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Howdy, Just wanted to say thanks to all who have responded to the inquiry. I have learned a great deal. Jonathan "R. Rankin" wrote: 'To stand' has a long nasal a:N. Dunno about 'rain'. Bob --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Sun Oct 31 22:08:25 2004 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 16:08:25 -0600 Subject: Kaw and Osage 'rain', 'stand' and 'boy' In-Reply-To: <08f201c4bdc3$0058d2b0$16b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: > Carolyn writes: >> In Osage, 'to stand' has a long nasal a:N. 'To rain', on the other hand, is either ni'z^u or nu'z^u, where the first syllable vowel is not long, or at least is not so long as the a:N in 'to stand'. I don't write 'rain' with a long vowel. > Ditto in Kansa. > > naaNz^iN' 'stand' (1st syll. long, second accented) > > nuz^u' 'rain' (1st syll short, second accented, /u/ is a front-rounded V as > in French) > > 'Boy' would be dissimilar in any event [...] > > So Kaw and Osage have no homonyms among these three. > > Bob Hmm. Well, I asked our other Omaha speaker on Friday, and after mulling it over for a while, she denied that the first syllable in naNz^iN', 'stand', was long. I wonder how Ponka handles it? Rory