From Ogalala2 at aol.com Sat Aug 13 17:18:09 2005 From: Ogalala2 at aol.com (Ogalala2 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:18:09 EDT Subject: Status of "u" in Omaha-Ponca Message-ID: I need the Dheghan scholars to clarify the status of "u" in Omaha-Ponca. I was surprised to hear that Om-Po "u" was lost leaving only four oral vowels in this language. This loss occurred when u>ue>i. The oral "u" (not fronted) occurs in the works of Fletcher & La Flesche, Dorsey, Boaz, and all others that I am familiar with. How is this to be explained? Is the loss of "u" a recent occurrence? Is there another explanation? Please clarify this issue for me. Thanks, Ted Grimm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Sat Aug 13 17:24:25 2005 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:24:25 -0500 Subject: Rory M Larson is out of the office. Message-ID: I will be out of the office starting 08/06/2005 and will not return until 08/22/2005. I will respond to your message when I return. From rankin at ku.edu Sat Aug 13 22:00:17 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:00:17 -0500 Subject: Status of "u" in Omaha-Ponca Message-ID: Hi Ted, Yes, proto-Siouan *u merged with "i" just as you say. But THEN, afterward, "o" began being pronounced as "u". So nowadays there are still only 4 oral vowels, i, e, a, u. (As recently as the 1970's I was still hearing many of the modern "u" sounds still pronounced as "o". Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Ogalala2 at aol.com Sent: Sat 8/13/2005 12:18 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Status of "u" in Omaha-Ponca I need the Dheghan scholars to clarify the status of "u" in Omaha-Ponca. I was surprised to hear that Om-Po "u" was lost leaving only four oral vowels in this language. This loss occurred when u>ue>i. The oral "u" (not fronted) occurs in the works of Fletcher & La Flesche, Dorsey, Boaz, and all others that I am familiar with. How is this to be explained? Is the loss of "u" a recent occurrence? Is there another explanation? Please clarify this issue for me. Thanks, Ted Grimm From rankin at ku.edu Sun Aug 14 19:20:22 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:20:22 -0500 Subject: Status of "u" in Omaha-Ponca Message-ID: That IS interesting. The full(er) story of the Siouan change is that it affects Omaha, Ponca (presumably as a single change) and also Quapaw. I suspect the latter change is distinct and parallel, since Quapaw lacks important features that ALL the other 4 Dhegiha languages developed (e.g., use of -akha, -aWa as agentive articles). Kansa and Osage both preserve the intermediate stage with a front-rounded U-umlaut (plus the other 4 normal vowels). A few words with U-umlaut occur in Dorsey's Quapaw notes, but not his typescripts where he normalizes. I have also written about this as a possible accomodation to Algonquian dialects that have 4 vowel systems AND the C1C2 > C1C1 change that Dhegiha underwent. I'd have expected Kaw and Osage to have had the close contact with Wichita, as they seem to borrow the numeral 'eight', /kkiyadoba, hkidhatopa/ from Wichita. The Osages have a folk etymology for it that doesn't quite fit. Bob > I am intrigued by this information, even though I probably knew it once, because the major difference between Wichita and Pawnee vowels is that Wichita merged [u] and [i] to /i/. There are traces of the old *u in the morphophonemics. Some rules that apply before /i/ don't apply before certain /i/s, namely, those that go back to *u. Wichita then had a three vowel system with no front/back distinction: i/e/a. More recently they have evolved an /o:/ from VwV sequences, but I know of only one word with a short "o" in the whole language, and it's suspect, too, because it's /ho'os/, i.e. has a medial glottal stop and the two instances harmonize. I have no etymology for it, so it stands as a unique instance of that phoneme. I wonder about some sort of areal phenomenon now. That sound change strikes me as kind of unusual. (I know about conditioned umlaut and unrounding, e.g. foot/feet, of course, but that's not an unconditioned merger.) Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Sat, 13 Aug 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Hi Ted, > > Yes, proto-Siouan *u merged with "i" just as you say. But THEN, > afterward, "o" began being pronounced as "u". So nowadays there are > still only 4 oral vowels, i, e, a, u. (As recently as the 1970's I > was still hearing many of the modern "u" sounds still pronounced as > "o". > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Ogalala2 at aol.com > Sent: Sat 8/13/2005 12:18 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Status of "u" in Omaha-Ponca > > > I need the Dheghan scholars to clarify the status of "u" in > Omaha-Ponca. I was surprised to hear that Om-Po "u" was lost leaving > only four oral vowels in this language. This loss occurred when > u>ue>i. The oral "u" (not fronted) occurs in the works of Fletcher & > La Flesche, Dorsey, Boaz, and all others that I am familiar with. How > is this to be explained? Is the loss of "u" a recent occurrence? Is > there another explanation? Please clarify this issue for me. > > Thanks, Ted Grimm > > From rood at spot.colorado.edu Sun Aug 14 17:50:20 2005 From: rood at spot.colorado.edu (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:50:20 -0600 Subject: Status of "u" in Omaha-Ponca In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am intrigued by this information, even though I probably knew it once, because the major difference between Wichita and Pawnee vowels is that Wichita merged [u] and [i] to /i/. There are traces of the old *u in the morphophonemics. Some rules that apply before /i/ don't apply before certain /i/s, namely, those that go back to *u. Wichita then had a three vowel system with no front/back distinction: i/e/a. More recently they have evolved an /o:/ from VwV sequences, but I know of only one word with a short "o" in the whole language, and it's suspect, too, because it's /ho'os/, i.e. has a medial glottal stop and the two instances harmonize. I have no etymology for it, so it stands as a unique instance of that phoneme. I wonder about some sort of areal phenomenon now. That sound change strikes me as kind of unusual. (I know about conditioned umlaut and unrounding, e.g. foot/feet, of course, but that's not an unconditioned merger.) Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Sat, 13 Aug 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Hi Ted, > > Yes, proto-Siouan *u merged with "i" just as you say. But THEN, afterward, "o" began being pronounced as "u". So nowadays there are still only 4 oral vowels, i, e, a, u. (As recently as the 1970's I was still hearing many of the modern "u" sounds still pronounced as "o". > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Ogalala2 at aol.com > Sent: Sat 8/13/2005 12:18 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Status of "u" in Omaha-Ponca > > > I need the Dheghan scholars to clarify the status of "u" in Omaha-Ponca. I was surprised to hear that Om-Po "u" was lost leaving only four oral vowels in this language. This loss occurred when u>ue>i. The oral "u" (not fronted) occurs in the works of Fletcher & > La Flesche, Dorsey, Boaz, and all others that I am familiar with. How is this to be explained? Is the loss of "u" a recent occurrence? Is there another explanation? Please clarify this issue for me. > > Thanks, Ted Grimm > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Aug 16 00:38:52 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:38:52 -0600 Subject: Status of "u" in Omaha-Ponca In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dhegiha, just when you were ready to write *V[a features] > V[a features] in the list of Siouan sound changes. On Sat, 13 Aug 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Yes, proto-Siouan *u merged with "i" just as you say. But THEN, > afterward, "o" began being pronounced as "u". So nowadays there are > still only 4 oral vowels, i, e, a, u. (As recently as the 1970's I was > still hearing many of the modern "u" sounds still pronounced as "o". As Bob has explained, we have two changes here. First a merger of *u and *i as i, which also occurs in Quapaw. Second, a shift of *o to u. I'd assume that the two changes are less a matter of sequential independent changes than parallel, associated, and simultaneous shifts in the use of the vowel space. However, there are problems with that notion. First, there is the failure of *o to shift in Quapaw (per Dorsey, who says it shifts in OP) and the question of whether Omaha-Ponca /u/ is really [u] (see below). Second, we do have a distinct tendency for *u to be [] (a high rounded front vowel] in Osage and Kaw, without any remarked upon shift upward in *o. For what it's worth, I am fairly sure that both Kaw and Osage have in some cases substituted u [u"] for *i or i for *u in some sets, so that, even without a merger there seems to have been some confusion or swapping. Example, Os -ci, OP =di LOC, cf. Dakotan =l ~ =tu, or Kaw -gu- DAT, OP -gi-, cf. Dakotan -ki-. I suppose this would have to be a case of "isoglosses" for some words or morphemes with /u/ or /i/ shifting ahead of others, though this is an idea that not all linguists happy with. Anyway, I do not believe this ever happens in accented syllables or non-grammatical elements. In short, it happens in unaccented and/or analogy-prone environments. Since Dorsey always writes u for PS > MDh *o, I assume that the shift to the present value was complete by the 1880s. I don't recall noticing anything bearing on earlier values in the limited earlier sources. Maximillian might be the best place to look. I've always assumed that Bob's "o" examples result from his better appreciation of what a genuine IPA o would be. English speakers in general are ill-prepared to perceive o and many Americans are weak on u, too, I've noticed. Also, I may be worse than average at distinguishing either, due to personal and dialect deficiencies. In regard to the latter admission, I was born in the same dialect area as JOD (Tidewater) and proceeded to Colorado via Detroit, which would be enough to dull anyone's vocalic sensibilities. As I recall Tidewater English doesn't have o or u or (aesc). It has e^w, , and e^. (I'm not sure I could do better with IPA.) It was some years before folks in Colorado stopped asked me where I was from. Most thought England. As to the personal deficiences above and beyond dialect, I am coming to realize that I have not always risen attentively to the details of Omaha phonology. This said, I've never had any problem hearing any and all of the higher back vowels in Omaha as u (as opposed to a, though not necessarily to anything else). It *might* be a lower sort of u, but I'm not able to say. What is usually written o in Omaha-Ponca (e.g., by LaFlesche and in the current popular systems) is the /au/ diphthong that arises when the male speech particle /u/ is added to a final /a/, e.g., dadi-hau < dadi 'father' + ha 'vocative' + u 'male speaker'. This also occurs in the particle /hau/ used in male-to-male greetings, male expressions of approbation, etc. This is probably not a coincidence, though /hau/ as a greeting is somewhat widespread in North America, especially Northeastern North America, but, e.g., it is also found in Hopi, I think. Just to be clear, what Bob consistantly hears (and usually writes) as o in Omaha-Ponca is not this /au/ diphthong, but /u/ (i.e., what Dorsey, LaFlesche, the current popular systems and others, including myself write as u). For what it is worth, the three nasal vowels of Proto-Siouan (and, e.g., Dakotan), i.e., iN, aN, and uN - the latter more like [oN] in Dakotan - come out in Dorsey's writing of OP as iN and aN, the latter representing a merger of aN and uN. LaFlesche writes oN for this merger. In fact, he usually writes moN and noN where Dorsey writes ma and na (with no indication of nasality) for /maN/ and /naN/, though he retains ma and na for unnasalized ma and na, e.g., in ama 'the' < *aWa. One interesting minimal pair for na vs. naN are the instrumenals na= < *Ra= 'by heat, spontaneously' vs. naN- 'by foot'. If you see the merger of aN and oN as a raising to oN, then this parallels the up and forward rotation of u to u" or i and o to u. However, Dhegihanists are not really sure if *aN and *uN have merged. On alternate days they think they just have trouble hearing the difference. Maybe some aN have merged with uN as something like oN and some have not. Some examples seem to turn on adjacent x vs. adjacent gh (gamma). Some may be a matter of length of word final position. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Aug 16 01:05:19 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:05:19 -0600 Subject: Status of "u" in Omaha-Ponca In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Aug 2005, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > I am intrigued by this information, even though I probably knew it once, > because the major difference between Wichita and Pawnee vowels is that > Wichita merged [u] and [i] to /i/. There are traces of the old *u in > the morphophonemics. Some rules that apply before /i/ don't apply > before certain /i/s, namely, those that go back to *u. This is sort of like * in Eastern Eskimo. The historic fourth vowel that merges everywhere with *i, *a, or *u on the surface, but tends to retain its own consistant pattern of morphophonemics. > Wichita then had a three vowel system with no front/back distinction: > i/e/a. More recently they have evolved an /o:/ from VwV sequences, but > I know of only one word with a short "o" in the whole language, and it's > suspect, too, because it's /ho'os/, i.e. has a medial glottal stop and > the two instances harmonize. I have no etymology for it, so it stands as > a unique instance of that phoneme. What does ho'os mean? > I wonder about some sort of areal phenomenon now. That sound change > strikes me as kind of unusual. (I know about conditioned umlaut and > unrounding, e.g. foot/feet, of course, but that's not an unconditioned > merger.) I think this sort of unmotivated rounding of *u is not entirely without precedent. For example, what about */u/ > /u"/ in Greek and French? I think in both cases this is essentially unmotivated and accompanied by a (preceding? subsequent?) shift of */ou/ > /u/. I also think, but am not sure, that (Ancient) Greek /u"/ becomes Modern /i/, too. However, these are the only similar examples I know of. Western American English does a sort of unmotivated unrounding and centering of (=> or ), e.g., in good, book, look, etc. I don't know if this is similar enough to be considered a parallel. From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Tue Aug 16 14:58:16 2005 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:58:16 -0600 Subject: Status of "u" in Omaha-Ponca In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ho'os means 'nearby in time'. With future or present tense, it means 'soon'; with past tenses, it means 'recently' or 'shortly before or after that'. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 15 Aug 2005, Koontz John E wrote: > On Sun, 14 Aug 2005, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > > I am intrigued by this information, even though I probably knew it once, > > because the major difference between Wichita and Pawnee vowels is that > > Wichita merged [u] and [i] to /i/. There are traces of the old *u in > > the morphophonemics. Some rules that apply before /i/ don't apply > > before certain /i/s, namely, those that go back to *u. > > This is sort of like * in Eastern Eskimo. The historic fourth > vowel that merges everywhere with *i, *a, or *u on the surface, but tends > to retain its own consistant pattern of morphophonemics. > > > Wichita then had a three vowel system with no front/back distinction: > > i/e/a. More recently they have evolved an /o:/ from VwV sequences, but > > I know of only one word with a short "o" in the whole language, and it's > > suspect, too, because it's /ho'os/, i.e. has a medial glottal stop and > > the two instances harmonize. I have no etymology for it, so it stands as > > a unique instance of that phoneme. > > What does ho'os mean? > > > I wonder about some sort of areal phenomenon now. That sound change > > strikes me as kind of unusual. (I know about conditioned umlaut and > > unrounding, e.g. foot/feet, of course, but that's not an unconditioned > > merger.) > > I think this sort of unmotivated rounding of *u is not entirely without > precedent. For example, what about */u/ > /u"/ in Greek and French? I > think in both cases this is essentially unmotivated and accompanied by a > (preceding? subsequent?) shift of */ou/ > /u/. I also think, but am not > sure, that (Ancient) Greek /u"/ becomes Modern /i/, too. However, these > are the only similar examples I know of. > > Western American English does a sort of unmotivated unrounding and > centering of (=> or ), e.g., in good, book, > look, etc. I don't know if this is similar enough to be considered a > parallel. > From goodtracks at gbronline.com Sat Aug 20 20:41:39 2005 From: goodtracks at gbronline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 15:41:39 -0500 Subject: Fw: HAWEH__AN OSAGE UPDATE Message-ID: This is an update on the Osage Language Program at Pawhuska, Okla, which may or may not be shared with the other two Osage communities of Grey Horse and Hominy. I thought I'd forward it in part for those interested in the progress of applied linguistics in the home communities of any particular language represented on this list. "Hawe' " is Osage for Greetings! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 9:26 PM Subject: HAWEH i got carolyns book... she did a lot of work in that book and no doubt she probably knows more about Osage than I do. after reading it I am much more aware in a general sense of Osage grammar. however she has written her book for academic peers and not Osages. Talee has been coaching me through the book as he seems to be about the only one who has grasped it (he was an editor on it) Its a good book with lots of good information but it is written way out of the reach of an everyday Osage. Even when Talee explains it he is off the charts of most people. So I am kind of trying to fill the role of talee translating caroylns book and im translating talee and trying to explain it to normal people. I ordered all that sound and video equipment for the Osage. Got them trained on how to use it. Good Mics. Good Camera's. Good everything. They are making their language cds now. They sound professional. They are also making videos for kids and adults as well. The Osage alphabet is progressing along. Although I wish I could have more input on it since I have a lot of knowledge in typography and type design and how it needs to be cohesive. Right now they are making 1 letter at a time. That to me is scary. But they decided to not introduce the alphabet to new students till further along in the curriculum. This will prevent any fouling up of the words after a student has a good handle on all the Osage sounds... Hearing them first, before seeing them I think is important. I got to meet Justin McBride. Very bright & very intelligent guy. I like his approach to language and his understanding and comprehension of Kaw. His approach is more holistic and i think thats why i agree with a lot of what he says. Language without cultural context isnt language, it's code. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 17:47:48 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:47:48 -0700 Subject: Fw: HAWEH__AN OSAGE UPDATE In-Reply-To: <003401c5a5d4$46eb4240$40640945@JIMM> Message-ID: Haweh Jimm, Nice to know that Osage revitalization is moving right along. And I like your quote: > Language without cultural context isnt language, it's code. > So true! Dave Jimm GoodTracks wrote: This is an update on the Osage Language Program at Pawhuska, Okla, which may or may not be shared with the other two Osage communities of Grey Horse and Hominy. I thought I'd forward it in part for those interested in the progress of applied linguistics in the home communities of any particular language represented on this list. "Hawe' " is Osage for Greetings! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 9:26 PM Subject: HAWEH i got carolyns book... she did a lot of work in that book and no doubt she probably knows more about Osage than I do. after reading it I am much more aware in a general sense of Osage grammar. however she has written her book for academic peers and not Osages. Talee has been coaching me through the book as he seems to be about the only one who has grasped it (he was an editor on it) Its a good book with lots of good information but it is written way out of the reach of an everyday Osage. Even when Talee explains it he is off the charts of most people. So I am kind of trying to fill the role of talee translating caroylns book and im translating talee and trying to explain it to normal people. I ordered all that sound and video equipment for the Osage. Got them trained on how to use it. Good Mics. Good Camera's. Good everything. They are making their language cds now. They sound professional. They are also making videos for kids and adults as well. The Osage alphabet is progressing along. Although I wish I could have more input on it since I have a lot of knowledge in typography and type design and how it needs to be cohesive. Right now they are making 1 letter at a time. That to me is scary. But they decided to not introduce the alphabet to new students till further along in the curriculum. This will prevent any fouling up of the words after a student has a good handle on all the Osage sounds... Hearing them first, before seeing them I think is important. I got to meet Justin McBride. Very bright & very intelligent guy. I like his approach to language and his understanding and comprehension of Kaw. His approach is more holistic and i think thats why i agree with a lot of what he says. Language without cultural context isnt language, it's code. --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goodtracks at gbronline.com Thu Aug 25 15:33:06 2005 From: goodtracks at gbronline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 10:33:06 -0500 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey Message-ID: I had not heard the story of the name "Turkey" being applied to the N.Am bird via Africa & the country of Turkey. I would think that a name for the N.Am bird would have been well established by the earliest N & S. Am. colonists before the birds were imported/ deported to other continents. Surely, they would not have shiped an unknown "specimens" or "species" without calling them something. After all, look at the label Columbus gave indigenous Native Americans as he came upon them and sent a captured shipment of them to Spain, i.e., "Indians", based on his false assumption that he landed in India. (No need to get into the rest of his atrocities, the naming being the least one) The Turkey, the indigenous large bird of the N & S.Am that is nonmigratory, but is considered for both a game (hunting) and poultry bird (domestically raised for eating). The domestic bird is descended from the Mexican turkey, taken to Europe by the conquistadores in the 16th century. The wild turkey is a woodlands bird, gregarious except at breeding time. It is a good flyer. The Spanish for Turkey, the bird, is: "guajalote" and "guanajo" in Cuba. Another term is "pavo". The Turkey-Cock that was mentioned above is "gallipavo". I mention this as many Spanish names of New World animals & birds were taken directly from the local indigenous languages, and thus may be a clue to the English designation. For what it is worth, the N.Am central plains indigenous Ioway (Baxoje) name for Turkey is "tagro'gro", which leads one to think it is taken directly from the sounds that the turkey make. On the otherhand, their related neighbors, the Otoe-Missouria, simply called the bird: "waying'xanje" meaning -- big bird --. The Ioway, Otoe-Missoria are indigenous to the present regions of the states of Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri and Kansas [presently, removed to NE Kansas and central Oklahoma]. They are a Siouian Family language, most closely related to the Winnebago (Hochank) of Wisconsin [presently, of Wisconsin and Nebraska]. I have no idea what the the Eastern tribes of the present U.S. may have called the woodlands bird, which also may provide some clue as to the present name "Turkey". Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Miller" To: Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 4:12 AM Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey > > Hi, > Can anyone shed any light (or feathers) on the origin of "turkey", as in > the > bird: > I read that the Guinea Fowl was originally the so-called "turkey(-cock)" > because it was imported from Africa through the country Turkey. Later, due > to confusion, the native American bird gained the name. > What confusion? It seems to be a rather "we don't actually know" > explanation. > Thanks, > Nick Miller > > --- > avast! Antivirus: Odchozi zprava cista. > Virova databaze (VPS): 0534-2, 24.08.2005 > Testovano: 25.8.2005 11:12:35 > From Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc Thu Aug 25 17:41:18 2005 From: Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc (Louis Garcia) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:41:18 -0500 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: <002b01c5a98a$7536bdf0$7f640945@JIMM> Message-ID: The Spirit Lake Dakota (Ft. Totten, ND) call the turkey Zizica [zee -zee'-cha(another puzzle as the name means nothing). From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 18:50:20 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:50:20 -0700 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: <20050825171428.5B6D5310F10@mail.littlehoop.cc> Message-ID: I always found it fascinating that the words for "turkey" are usually quite different across Europe and even among the Latin languages themselves, e.g., Spanish (Cast.) pavo, Italian tacchino, French dinde or dindon, Portuguese peru'. Different Spanish-speaking countries also borrowed indigenous words that they use in preference to the conquistador's Castilian word, as Jimm pointed out, such as guajolote in Mexico. For what it's worth, the Biloxi word is ma (yoka), which seems to be related to the word for chicken, maxi. The Cherokee words are gvna (v pronounced aN) and kalagisa. Not sure if that helps anything. Dave Louis Garcia wrote: The Spirit Lake Dakota (Ft. Totten, ND) call the turkey Zizica [zee -zee'-cha(another puzzle as the name means nothing). --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Aug 25 18:56:50 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:56:50 -0700 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey Message-ID: A word in common usage in Guatemalan Spanish is 'chompipe'. I'm sure someone has worked out where that's from, but I don't happen to know about it. The Proto-Algonquian word for 'turkey', *pele:wa, can be etymologized as literally meaning 'flier'. Dave C I always found it fascinating that the words for "turkey" are usually quite different across Europe and even among the Latin languages themselves, e.g., Spanish (Cast.) pavo, Italian tacchino, French dinde or dindon, Portuguese peru'. Different Spanish-speaking countries also borrowed indigenous words that they use in preference to the conquistador's Castilian word, as Jimm pointed out, such as guajolote in Mexico. For what it's worth, the Biloxi word is ma (yoka), which seems to be related to the word for chicken, maxi. The Cherokee words are gvna (v pronounced aN) and kalagisa. Not sure if that helps anything. Dave Louis Garcia wrote: The Spirit Lake Dakota (Ft. Totten, ND) call the turkey Zizica [zee -zee'-cha(another puzzle as the name means nothing). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Aug 25 19:08:31 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:08:31 -0500 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David Costa wrote: > The Proto-Algonquian word for 'turkey', */pele:wa/, can be etymologized > as literally meaning 'flier'. which comes out in Ojibway as bine 'partridge, ruffed grouse' and binesi 'bird (of a large species)'. Turkey is mizise. /pele:wa/ descendants in Plains Cree mean 'bird' and 'prairie chicken'. Alan From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Aug 25 19:12:14 2005 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 20:12:14 +0100 Subject: Turkey Message-ID: Folks: The Mexican Spanish word is a loan from Nahuatl /we'$olotl/, I believe, which passed into some other American languages, including Karankawa. "Chicken" is a Wanderwort in the SE - Chitimacha and Tunica both borrowed their word from Caddo, which (this is from memory, so apologies to wally) has something like /k'apahci/. Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 19:12:22 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:12:22 -0700 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > A word in common usage in Guatemalan Spanish is 'chompipe'. I'm sure someone has worked out where that's from, but I don't happen to know about it. > A Mayan dialect, perhaps? It just occurred to me that the second Cherokee word I gave, kalagisa, may be related to the word for "goose" (sasa). Not sure about the kalagi-, karaki- part. Perhaps one of the Iroquoianists would know. Dave David Costa wrote: A word in common usage in Guatemalan Spanish is 'chompipe'. I'm sure someone has worked out where that's from, but I don't happen to know about it. The Proto-Algonquian word for 'turkey', *pele:wa, can be etymologized as literally meaning 'flier'. Dave C I always found it fascinating that the words for "turkey" are usually quite different across Europe and even among the Latin languages themselves, e.g., Spanish (Cast.) pavo, Italian tacchino, French dinde or dindon, Portuguese peru'. Different Spanish-speaking countries also borrowed indigenous words that they use in preference to the conquistador's Castilian word, as Jimm pointed out, such as guajolote in Mexico. For what it's worth, the Biloxi word is ma (yoka), which seems to be related to the word for chicken, maxi. The Cherokee words are gvna (v pronounced aN) and kalagisa. Not sure if that helps anything. Dave Louis Garcia wrote: The Spirit Lake Dakota (Ft. Totten, ND) call the turkey Zizica [zee -zee'-cha(another puzzle as the name means nothing). --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Aug 25 19:12:00 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:12:00 -0500 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey Message-ID: Unfortunately, I inadvertently erased Louis Garcia's response, so if anything I say here repeats his words, please forgive me. Just a couple of things: the French called the wild turkey "coq d'Inde," "India cock". Make of that what you will. The term for the North American wild turkey (Meleagris gallopovo) is reconstructible for Proto-Algonquian: */pele:wa/, which includes the medial */-i?le:-/ 'fly', as in PA */wempi?le:wa/ 'he flies up'. Miami-Illinois has /pileewa/; Shawnee /peleewa/. As for the Spanish name for the turkey, that comes from the Nahuatl term for turkey cock, hueixolotl. That's all I know. Michael From rankin at ku.edu Thu Aug 25 19:29:01 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:29:01 -0500 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey Message-ID: In several other related languages however the term means variously 'partridge, prairie chicken, turkey' so is or was a more general term for gallinaceous birds. Dhegiha terms for 'chicken' are derived from the same root. Bob > The Spirit Lake Dakota (Ft. Totten, ND) call the turkey Zizica [zee -zee'-cha(another puzzle as the name means nothing). From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Aug 25 19:37:17 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:37:17 -0700 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey Message-ID: Actually, */pele:wa/ is more complicated than I realized. Here's the breakdown: 'turkey': Shawnee, Fox, Miami, Potawatomi, Delaware 'grouse' (of some kind): Ojibwe, Menominee, Cree, Micmac, Arapaho/GrosVentre I'm a tad reluctant to reconstruct this as 'grouse' since there are better Proto-Algonquian candidates for that. Perhaps its true PA meaning is 'salient local game fowl'. Ojibwe mizise is from an etymon (*/me?$i?le:wa/, lit., 'big flier') that seems to mean 'turkey' most of the time, and 'prairie chicken' the rest of the time. 'turkey': Ojibwe, Cree, Cheyenne, Menominee 'prairie chicken': Fox, Miami Dave > David Costa wrote: > >> The Proto-Algonquian word for 'turkey', */pele:wa/, can be etymologized >> as literally meaning 'flier'. > > which comes out in Ojibway as bine 'partridge, ruffed grouse' and binesi > 'bird (of a large species)'. Turkey is mizise. > > /pele:wa/ descendants in Plains Cree mean 'bird' and 'prairie chicken'. > > Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Aug 25 19:39:06 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:39:06 -0500 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting "Rankin, Robert L" : > In several other related languages however the term means variously > 'partridge, prairie chicken, turkey' so is or was a more general term > for gallinaceous birds. Dhegiha terms for 'chicken' are derived from > the same root. > > Bob > Similarly, Miami-Illinois derives the name for the domestic turkey from its name for the wild one. The domestic one is called /waapipilia/ 'white-turkey'. Michael > > The Spirit Lake Dakota (Ft. Totten, ND) call the turkey Zizica [zee > -zee'-cha(another puzzle as the name means nothing). > > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Aug 25 19:46:11 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:46:11 -0500 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That's nice. Thanks. Quoting David Costa : > Actually, */pele:wa/ is more complicated than I realized. > > Here's the breakdown: > > 'turkey': Shawnee, Fox, Miami, Potawatomi, Delaware > > 'grouse' (of some kind): Ojibwe, Menominee, Cree, Micmac, Arapaho/GrosVentre > > I'm a tad reluctant to reconstruct this as 'grouse' since there are better > Proto-Algonquian candidates for that. Perhaps its true PA meaning is > 'salient local game fowl'. > > Ojibwe mizise is from an etymon (*/me?$i?le:wa/, lit., 'big flier') that > seems to mean 'turkey' most of the time, and 'prairie chicken' the rest of > the time. > > 'turkey': Ojibwe, Cree, Cheyenne, Menominee > > 'prairie chicken': Fox, Miami > > Dave > > > > David Costa wrote: > > > >> The Proto-Algonquian word for 'turkey', */pele:wa/, can be etymologized > >> as literally meaning 'flier'. > > > > which comes out in Ojibway as bine 'partridge, ruffed grouse' and binesi > > 'bird (of a large species)'. Turkey is mizise. > > > > /pele:wa/ descendants in Plains Cree mean 'bird' and 'prairie chicken'. > > > > Alan > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Aug 25 20:01:42 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:01:42 -0700 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey Message-ID: Actually, in modern Miami-Illinois, /pileewa/ is glossed both 'turkey' and 'chicken'. However, /waapipilia/ (a much rarer word) only means 'turkey'. This would lead me to believe that /waapipilia/ is a neologism designed to disambiguate things -- to create a word that specifically means 'turkey' and not 'chicken'. However, against that is the statement by some speakers from a hundred years or so ago that /waapipilia/ was an 'old name'. But none of the 18th-century Jesuit sources have it. Hmmm. (To get 'wild turkey', you just attach the prenoun /nalaaohki-/ 'wild' to it: /nalaaohki-pileewa/.) Dave > Similarly, Miami-Illinois derives the name for the domestic turkey from its > name for the wild one. The domestic one is called /waapipilia/ 'white-turkey'. > Michael > Quoting "Rankin, Robert L" : >> In several other related languages however the term means variously >> 'partridge, prairie chicken, turkey' so is or was a more general term for >> gallinaceous birds. Dhegiha terms for 'chicken' are derived from the same >> root. >> Bob >>> The Spirit Lake Dakota (Ft. Totten, ND) call the turkey Zizica [zee >>> -zee'-cha(another puzzle as the name means nothing). From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Thu Aug 25 20:24:19 2005 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:24:19 -0600 Subject: m's and w's and Mitasse: Caddoan phonology question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I hope that the Siouanists will tolerate a little Caddoan on this list, just as they do at the annual meetings, since there is not ever likely to be a Caddoan discussion list. I have a very speculative idea about some phonological possibilities, and maybe some of you can relate to my musings. When Mary C. Kelley first contacted Victor Golla about the possible etymology of the name Mittase, and Victor passed the query on to Wally and me before publishing it in the SSILA newsletter, Mary and I had some correspondence in which she copied this intriguing paragraph from a book for me: >>From the book, Pioneering in the Southwest by A. J. Holt (father of Mittase Holt) pub. 1923, p 135: "The most promising tribe in receiving the gospel was the Wacoes (sic). The chief of this tribe was Buffalo Good. This really great man was noble and spirited and an Indian of giant mould. He was born in Waco Village, before Texas became a republic. The city of Waco, Texas, was so named because of the Indian name that attached to it and that was called from the tribe of Indians who lived there. The manner of the pronunciation of this name sounded more like 'Maidaco" than Waco, but in adapting the name to the English tongue it became simply Waco." So at least one English speaking witness thought that a word that seems to have an initial /w/ in most of its instances was pronounced with something that sounded more like [m] by one Waco speaker. Now, add to this the fact that Wichita has no /m/ phoneme, except in two verb roots, both of which have medial geminate [mm]. (One means 'grind corn' and the other means 'hoe'). Next bit of information: In modern Wichita, [n] and [r] are in complementary distribution, with [n] occurring initially, geminate, and before alveolars, while [r] occurs before vowels or laryngeals. (Neither one occurs before /k/ or /kw/.) What if, in Waco or even older Wichita, [w] and [m] had a distribution parallel to modern Wichita [r] and [n]? Do any other phonologists out there think this is at all plausible? If it is, then the name "Mittase" might have an initial phonemic /w/. Unfortunately, I can't go any further than that, because /witasi/, or /wirasi/ (many English speakers write the tapped [r] as _tt_), or other variations I can dream up still don't match with any morphemes I know that might lead to the meaning 'white baby' or 'white child'. What does anyone else think of the [m] = [w] speculation? Thanks. DAvid David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Aug 25 20:37:22 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:37:22 -0600 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: <1124997120.430e180036bc2@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > Just a couple of things: the French called the wild turkey "coq d'Inde," > "India cock". Make of that what you will. I tend to suspect that "turkey" in English "Turkey bird" derives from this eastern connection - with one exotic heathen not too carefully distinguished from another. The suggestion from Nick Miller that the whole scheme derives from using the same terms for pea fowl, which also do a spread-tail display, makes sense, and explains the (East) Indian/Turkish connection. A wonderful childhood memory of mine is being allowed to pick up as many fallen peacock tailfeathers as I liked on the grounds of an estate on the Eastern Shore that kept a flock. A "distant uncle" - in the words of Hank Williams - was caretaker of the place. Alas, peacocks usually don't drop them until they've used them a bit and then they walk around on them doing what birds do. I think our mother may have edited our collection some later without telling us. From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Thu Aug 25 21:03:11 2005 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:03:11 -0700 Subject: Turkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't know if this is relevant to this discussion, but Tony Grant is right about the Caddo word for chicken, except that it has a glottal stop at the end. -ci? is a diminutive suffix, so it's a little k'apah, whatever that is. The Caddo for turkey is nu?, a short word indeed, which makes it seem as if they knew turkeys for a long time. Wally > The Mexican Spanish word is a loan from Nahuatl /we'$olotl/, I believe, > which passed into some other American languages, including Karankawa. > > "Chicken" is a Wanderwort in the SE - Chitimacha and Tunica both > borrowed their word from Caddo, which (this is from memory, so apologies > to wally) has something like /k'apahci/. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Aug 25 21:05:30 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:05:30 -0600 Subject: m's and w's and Mitasse: Caddoan phonology question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Aug 2005, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > I hope that the Siouanists will tolerate a little Caddoan on this list, > just as they do at the annual meetings, since there is not ever likely to > be a Caddoan discussion list. I have a very speculative idea about some > phonological possibilities, and maybe some of you can relate to my > musings. Actually, we could easily start a Caddoan discussion list in parallel with the Siouan one and I would happily take care of the administrative details. My fear is that there wouldn't be any Caddoanist discussion, for want of Caddoanists as much as anything. I've always enjoyed the Caddoanist papers at the SACC meetings. David's paper on Wichita syntax in 2004 was the first time I felt like I grasped how Caddoan languages work. It was a sort of "whoa - another way" moment. > ... So at least one English speaking witness thought that a word that > seems to have an initial /w/ in most of its instances was pronounced > with something that sounded more like [m] by one Waco speaker. Now, add > to this the fact that Wichita has no /m/ phoneme, except in two verb > roots, both of which have medial geminate [mm]. (One means 'grind corn' > and the other means 'hoe'). > > Next bit of information: In modern Wichita, [n] and [r] are in > complementary distribution, with [n] occurring initially, geminate, and > before alveolars, while [r] occurs before vowels or laryngeals. (Neither > one occurs before /k/ or /kw/.) > > What if, in Waco or even older Wichita, [w] and [m] had a distribution > parallel to modern Wichita [r] and [n]? Do any other phonologists out > there think this is at all plausible? I was wondering about this just by analogy with Crow and Hidatsa. I think the phonology is entirely plausible. Notice that the extant m examples in Wichita are geminate, and /r/ is [nn] when geminate, apparently a more common situation with /r/. In terms of Siouan parallels, geminate /w/ and /r/ are [mm] and [nn] in Crow, and initial position is one in which Hidatsa has [m] and [n]. > If it is, then the name "Mittase" might have an initial phonemic /w/. > Unfortunately, I can't go any further than that, because /witasi/, or > /wirasi/ (many English speakers write the tapped [r] as _tt_), or other > variations I can dream up still don't match with any morphemes I know > that might lead to the meaning 'white baby' or 'white child'. Mrs. Kelly has indicated to me that the final part of the name is currently /es/ in her family, though the original Holt family usage may have been /esi/. I don't know if that helps any. > What does anyone else think of the [m] = [w] speculation? It seems reasonable. I don't really have any ideas on the glossing in Wichita terms beyond that! Well, maybe one. I think you pointed out to me in connection with discussions of the attested term for 'white man' that -s- was the linking element in compounds. So perhaps wite(??)-s-(i)? It was interesting to see the Osage loan for 'white man'. From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Thu Aug 25 21:07:27 2005 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:07:27 -0700 Subject: m's and w's and Mitasse: Caddoan phonology question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Of course, m and w alternate across various Caddo dialects. See names like Midish or whatever, corresponding to modern Caddo widish "salt". Wally > I hope that the Siouanists will tolerate a little Caddoan on this list, > just as they do at the annual meetings, since there is not ever likely to > be a Caddoan discussion list. I have a very speculative idea about some > phonological possibilities, and maybe some of you can relate to my > musings. > > When Mary C. Kelley first contacted Victor Golla about the possible > etymology of the name Mittase, and Victor passed the query on to Wally and > me before publishing it in the SSILA newsletter, Mary and I had some > correspondence in which she copied this intriguing paragraph from a book > for me: > >> From the book, Pioneering in the Southwest by A. J. Holt (father of > Mittase Holt) pub. 1923, p 135: > "The most promising tribe in receiving the gospel was the Wacoes (sic). > The chief of this tribe was Buffalo Good. This really great man was > noble and spirited and an Indian of giant mould. He was born in Waco > Village, before Texas became a republic. The city of Waco, Texas, was so > named because of the Indian name that attached to it and that was called > from the tribe of Indians who lived there. The manner of the > pronunciation of this name sounded more like 'Maidaco" than Waco, but in > adapting the name to the English tongue it became simply Waco." > > So at least one English speaking witness thought that a word that seems to > have an initial /w/ in most of its instances was pronounced with something > that sounded more like [m] by one Waco speaker. Now, add to this the fact > that Wichita has no /m/ phoneme, except in two verb roots, both of which > have medial geminate [mm]. (One means 'grind corn' and the other means > 'hoe'). > > Next bit of information: In modern Wichita, [n] and [r] are in > complementary distribution, with [n] occurring initially, geminate, and > before alveolars, while [r] occurs before vowels or laryngeals. (Neither > one occurs before /k/ or /kw/.) > > What if, in Waco or even older Wichita, [w] and [m] had a distribution > parallel to modern Wichita [r] and [n]? Do any other phonologists out > there think this is at all plausible? If it is, then the name "Mittase" > might have an initial phonemic /w/. Unfortunately, I can't go any further > than that, because /witasi/, or /wirasi/ (many English speakers write the > tapped [r] as _tt_), or other variations I can dream up still don't match > with any morphemes I know that might lead to the meaning 'white baby' or > 'white child'. > > What does anyone else think of the [m] = [w] speculation? > > Thanks. > DAvid > > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > From BARudes at aol.com Thu Aug 25 21:28:30 2005 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:28:30 EDT Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey Message-ID: In a message dated 8/25/2005 4:40:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, John.Koontz at colorado.edu writes: On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > Just a couple of things: the French called the wild turkey "coq d'Inde," > "India cock". Make of that what you will. I tend to suspect that "turkey" in English "Turkey bird" derives from this eastern connection - with one exotic heathen not too carefully distinguished from another. The suggestion from Nick Miller that the whole scheme derives from using the same terms for pea fowl, which also do a spread-tail display, makes sense, and explains the (East) Indian/Turkish connection. A wonderful childhood memory of mine is being allowed to pick up as many fallen peacock tailfeathers as I liked on the grounds of an estate on the Eastern Shore that kept a flock. A "distant uncle" - in the words of Hank Williams - was caretaker of the place. Alas, peacocks usually don't drop them until they've used them a bit and then they walk around on them doing what birds do. I think our mother may have edited our collection some later without telling us. Some of the indigenous names for the ‘turkey’ on the East Coast were: Virginia Algonquian (Powhatan) monanaw (and similar spellings) ‘a turkey’ (William Strachey, 1612) -- It is perhaps noteworthy that the English were already calling the bird 'a turkey' during the early years of the Jamestown settlement. Narragansett neyhom (Roger Williams) Natick nahiam (Wood) Old Abenaki nahame (Rasles) Old Delaware tshikenum (Zeisburger) Catawba watkaN (or witkaN) su:riye ‘lit. wild fowl’ (modern Iroquoian forms are from the dictionaries published by University of Toronto Press, Wally Chafe’s Seneca dictionary, and Gunther Michelson’s Mohawk dictionary) Old Tuscarora Coona ‘A Turkey’ (Lawson 1701) (modern Tuscarora keN:neN? ‘ turkey’) (cognate with the Cherokee word gvna that Dave cited; also Nottoway kunum ‘turkey’). Cayuga sohoN:t ‘turkey’ (Froman, Keye, Keye & Dyck) Seneca o?so:oNt ‘turkey’ (Chafe) Onondnaga honuNdaheNhweNh, nedaheNhwah ‘turkey’ (Woodbury) Oneida skawilo:wane? ‘turkey’ (Michelson & Doxtator) Mohawk skawero:wane? ‘turkey’ (G. Michelson) Huron ondettontaque ‘coq d’inde’ (Sagard) Wyandot detoN:ta? ‘turkey’ (Barbeau) Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Aug 25 21:42:22 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:42:22 -0500 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > I tend to suspect that "turkey" in English "Turkey bird" derives from > this eastern connection - with one exotic heathen not too carefully > distinguished from another. Eng. 'turkey' is from 'turkey-cock', about which the OED says "In the 16th c. synonymous with Guinea-cock or Guinea-fowl, an African bird known to the ancients (as meleagris), the American bird being at first identified with or treated as a species of this. The African bird is believed to have been so called as originally imported through the Turkish dominions; it was called Guinea-fowl when brought by the Portuguese from Guinea in West Africa. After the two birds were distinguished and the names differentiated, turkey was erroneously retained for the American bird, instead of the African. From the same imperfect knowledge and confusion Meleagris, the ancient name of the African fowl, was unfortunately adopted by Linnæus as the generic name of the American bird." From Rgraczyk at aol.com Thu Aug 25 21:44:11 2005 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Randolph Graczyk) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:44:11 EDT Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey Message-ID: The Crow word for turkey is daka'akiskoochiia 'bird's enemy'. I have no idea why. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu Aug 25 22:05:07 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:05:07 -0500 Subject: m's and w's and Mitasse: Caddoan phonology question Message-ID: I can add just a bit about possible areal features here. In the 1880's Dorsey transcribed one Kansa (Kaw) sound with the letter with a small written directly beneath it. This occurs as the initial phoneme of all of his 1st Sg. possessive forms with the prefix wi- 'my inalienable'. Quite evidently it had some sort of weak nasality in Dorsey's perception. By the 1970's when I re-recorded all of Dorsey's material with Mrs. Rowe and Mr. Pepper these peculiar M's with the subscript x were fully fledged W's. I have no recording of a bilabial fricative or partial nasal at all in these words. SO . . . It seems clear that Kaw initial /w/ preceding /i/ was somewhat nasalized in the late 19th century. But by the last quarter of the 20th century the nasality had totally vanished in the same vocabulary. We know that Caddoan and Dhegiha speakers were in contact (the Kaws and Osages borrow 'eight' from North Caddoan), but that's about all we (or, at least, I) know. I do think this makes David's hypothesis more reasonable however. Bob > What if, in Waco or even older Wichita, [w] and [m] had a distribution parallel to modern Wichita [r] and [n]? Do any other phonologists out there think this is at all plausible? If it is, then the name "Mittase" might have an initial phonemic /w/. Unfortunately, I can't go any further than that, because /witasi/, or /wirasi/ (many English speakers write the tapped [r] as _tt_), or other variations I can dream up still don't match with any morphemes I know that might lead to the meaning 'white baby' or 'white child'. What does anyone else think of the [m] = [w] speculation? From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Fri Aug 26 10:14:13 2005 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:14:13 +0100 Subject: m's, w's and Turkey Message-ID: Dear all: 1) Regarding m and w. one of the first records of Wichita records the word for 'moon' as in a gallicising spelling, so something like /mwa/ is intended. It just has a plain w- now, corresponding to other Northern Caddoan forms such as Arikara /pah/. Maybe Wichita /w/ > PNC *w had a separate reflex in earlier days from /w/ > PNC *w, and this is a last echo of it. And Randolph Marcy recorded the Spanish loan for 'mule' in Wichita as , representing something like /mu:ra/. Occasional b's crop up in some 19th century Wichita data too, and as far as I know (I'm doing thsi from memory) they're the equivalent of modern /w/ now. 2) Regarding /peleewa/, note the borrowing /pinwa/ 'turkey' in Creek, from a language where /l/ had become /n/ before lending the word to Creek. Mary Haas pointed this one out decades ago. Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Fri Aug 26 14:28:13 2005 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (helpdesk) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:28:13 +0100 Subject: Pemni Wichak'upi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does anyone know what the term Pemni Wichak¹upi may mean. I have it from a tape on the subject of religion. It is in reference to a ceremony and I presume it is a Lakota ceremony. It just might refer to Holy Communion, but I don¹t think so because that is referred to in the same context as Yutapi Wakhan Icupi. I wondered whether the pemni were Œtobacco ties². Hope someone can help Bruce -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Fri Aug 26 14:32:31 2005 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (helpdesk) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:32:31 +0100 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: <20050825185020.60906.qmail@web53809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Incidentally in Arabic it is called Diik Ruumi Œa Roman (i.e. christian, european) chicken¹. No one seems to want to be responsible for such a strange looking bird I think Bruce On 25/8/05 7:50 pm, "David Kaufman" wrote: > I always found it fascinating that the words for "turkey" are usually quite > different across Europe and even among the Latin languages themselves, e.g., > Spanish (Cast.) pavo, Italian tacchino, French dinde or dindon, Portuguese > peru'. Different Spanish-speaking countries also borrowed indigenous words > that they use in preference to the conquistador's Castilian word, as Jimm > pointed out, such as guajolote in Mexico. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rwd0002 at unt.edu Fri Aug 26 14:53:32 2005 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:53:32 -0500 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting helpdesk : > Incidentally in Arabic it is called Diik Ruumi Œa Roman (i.e. christian, > european) chicken¹. No one seems to want to be responsible for such a > strange looking bird I think > Bruce > > > On 25/8/05 7:50 pm, "David Kaufman" wrote: > > > I always found it fascinating that the words for "turkey" are usually > quite > > different across Europe and even among the Latin languages themselves, > e.g., > > Spanish (Cast.) pavo, Italian tacchino, French dinde or dindon, > Portuguese > > peru'. Different Spanish-speaking countries also borrowed indigenous > words > > that they use in preference to the conquistador's Castilian word, as Jimm > > pointed out, such as guajolote in Mexico. > > Let me put in my Dutch 2 cents: in Dutch the word is kalkoen [kalkun], shortened from Kalkoense haan, which is from Kalekoetse haan, literally 'rooster of Calcutta (or maybe Calicut, another place in India). So the Dutch, like the French, thought it was originally a bird from India. Willem From rwd0002 at unt.edu Fri Aug 26 15:17:01 2005 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:17:01 -0500 Subject: Pemni Wichak'upi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting helpdesk : > Does anyone know what the term Pemni Wichak¹upi may mean. I have it from a > tape on the subject of religion. It is in reference to a ceremony and I > presume it is a Lakota ceremony. It just might refer to Holy Communion, but > I don¹t think so because that is referred to in the same context as Yutapi > Wakhan Icupi. I wondered whether the pemni were Œtobacco ties². Hope > someone can help > > Bruce That does not sound like Holy Communion, or anything Catholic for that matter. Yutapi Wakhan 'Holy Food' is indeed the accepted term for Communion, at least for Lakhota Catholics. I bet Ray DeMallie or Ray Bucko would know, but I am not sure if they are on the Siouan List. Willem From mckay020 at umn.edu Fri Aug 26 17:16:50 2005 From: mckay020 at umn.edu (Cantemaza) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:16:50 -0500 Subject: Pemni Wichak'upi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: helpdesk wrote: > Does anyone know what the term Pemni Wichak'upi may mean. I have it > from a tape on the subject of religion. It is in reference to a > ceremony and I presume it is a Lakota ceremony. It just might refer to > Holy Communion, but I don't think so because that is referred to in > the same context as Yutapi Wakhan Icupi. I wondered whether the pemni > were 'tobacco ties". Hope someone can help > > Bruce I have not heard this myself but we (Bdewakantunwan Dakota hemaca do) do have a word for pie, wo'pemni s'paN. I haven't been to a ceremony yet where pie is used so I'm pretty sure that is not it he-he. Wo'pemni s'paN means the thing that's cooked round or in a circle (taspaN wo'pemni s'paN - apple pie). -Cantemaza de miye do. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Fri Aug 26 17:22:48 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 19:22:48 +0200 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey Message-ID: 'wild turkey', in Lakota is given as _wagleksun_ [wagle'ks^uN] - do you have any idea what it means? BTW, in German it's 'Truthahn' (maybe from mndd 'droten'- to threaten), earlier it was called 'indianischer Hahn' (ref. to West Indies) but also 'welscher' or 'tuerkischer Hahn'. In Romanian, it is called 'curcan' [kurka'n] and in Hungarian 'pulyka (kakas)' [puj'kã kã'kãsh]. I don't know why :( Alfred From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 17:39:17 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:39:17 -0700 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: <430F4FE8.6060304@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: While we're on the international theme, might as well add Russian "indyuk" for turkey, again apparently deriving from the word for India or Indian. Again, the Rumanian term "curcan" confirms lack of concensus on the part of the Latin-speaking peoples on a name for "turkey." Interesting. Dave "Alfred W. Tüting" wrote: 'wild turkey', in Lakota is given as _wagleksun_ [wagle'ks^uN] - do you have any idea what it means? BTW, in German it's 'Truthahn' (maybe from mndd 'droten'- to threaten), earlier it was called 'indianischer Hahn' (ref. to West Indies) but also 'welscher' or 'tuerkischer Hahn'. In Romanian, it is called 'curcan' [kurka'n] and in Hungarian 'pulyka (kakas)' [puj'kã kã'kãsh]. I don't know why :( Alfred __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc Fri Aug 26 20:06:46 2005 From: Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc (Louis Garcia) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:06:46 -0500 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: <20050826173917.15284.qmail@web53801.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Waglesun (Turkey in Lakota) Wa = noun marker; Gle[s’ka] = stripe; Sun = wing feathers. _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 12:39 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: [Lexicog] Turkey While we're on the international theme, might as well add Russian "indyuk" for turkey, again apparently deriving from the word for India or Indian. Again, the Rumanian term "curcan" confirms lack of concensus on the part of the Latin-speaking peoples on a name for "turkey." Interesting. Dave "Alfred W. Tüting" wrote: 'wild turkey', in Lakota is given as _wagleksun_ [wagle'ks^uN] - do you have any idea what it means? BTW, in German it's 'Truthahn' (maybe from mndd 'droten'- to threaten), earlier it was called 'indianischer Hahn' (ref. to West Indies) but also 'welscher' or 'tuerkischer Hahn'. In Romanian, it is called 'curcan' [kurka'n] and in Hungarian 'pulyka (kakas)' [puj'kã kã'kãsh]. I don't know why :( Alfred __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sat Aug 27 12:52:28 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 14:52:28 +0200 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey Message-ID: > Waglesun (Turkey in Lakota) Wa = noun marker; Gle[s’ka] = stripe; Sun = wing feathers. << Thought of this too, yet how do you get to the /k/ of [wa-gle-k-s^uN]?? > While we're on the international theme, might as well add Russian "indyuk" for turkey, again apparently deriving from the word for India or Indian.<< Maybe Kostya will englighten us - my very intuitive association with this is Hungarian 'tyúk' (chicken) -> ind+tyúk -> indyuk (???) (Hungarian has quite some slavic words incorporated that are somewhat hard to recognize as such.) > Again, the Rumanian term "curcan" confirms lack of concensus on the part of the Latin-speaking peoples on a name for "turkey." Interesting.<< Will have to look after it, but I'd guess that the word is a loan from Turkish (*kurkan?) - cf. Rum. 'tutun' from Turk. 'tütün' (tobacco) etc. etc. Alfred From rankin at ku.edu Sat Aug 27 15:19:42 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 10:19:42 -0500 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey Message-ID: Oddly enough, the Turkish word for 'turkey' is "hindi", again suggesting that East Indian origin. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of "Alfred W. Tüting" Sent: Sat 8/27/2005 7:52 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey > Waglesun (Turkey in Lakota) Wa = noun marker; Gle[s'ka] = stripe; Sun = wing feathers. << Thought of this too, yet how do you get to the /k/ of [wa-gle-k-s^uN]?? > While we're on the international theme, might as well add Russian "indyuk" for turkey, again apparently deriving from the word for India or Indian.<< Maybe Kostya will englighten us - my very intuitive association with this is Hungarian 'tyúk' (chicken) -> ind+tyúk -> indyuk (???) (Hungarian has quite some slavic words incorporated that are somewhat hard to recognize as such.) > Again, the Rumanian term "curcan" confirms lack of concensus on the part of the Latin-speaking peoples on a name for "turkey." Interesting.<< Will have to look after it, but I'd guess that the word is a loan from Turkish (*kurkan?) - cf. Rum. 'tutun' from Turk. 'tütün' (tobacco) etc. etc. Alfred From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 28 01:54:59 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:54:59 -0700 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: <4310620C.9000208@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: > Will have to look after it, but I'd guess that the word is a loan from Turkish (*kurkan?) - cf. Rum. 'tutun' from Turk. 'tütün' (tobacco) etc. > Probably. It'd be interesting to know how Italian (tacchino) and Portuguese (peru/perua) got their terms, since the Latin word was meleagris gallopavo, the obvious source of the Spanish pavo. Dave "Alfred W. Tüting" wrote: > Waglesun (Turkey in Lakota) Wa = noun marker; Gle[s’ka] = stripe; Sun = wing feathers. << Thought of this too, yet how do you get to the /k/ of [wa-gle-k-s^uN]?? > While we're on the international theme, might as well add Russian "indyuk" for turkey, again apparently deriving from the word for India or Indian.<< Maybe Kostya will englighten us - my very intuitive association with this is Hungarian 'tyúk' (chicken) -> ind+tyúk -> indyuk (???) (Hungarian has quite some slavic words incorporated that are somewhat hard to recognize as such.) > Again, the Rumanian term "curcan" confirms lack of concensus on the part of the Latin-speaking peoples on a name for "turkey." Interesting.<< Will have to look after it, but I'd guess that the word is a loan from Turkish (*kurkan?) - cf. Rum. 'tutun' from Turk. 'tütün' (tobacco) etc. etc. Alfred __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 28 02:04:37 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:04:37 -0700 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: <002b01c5a98a$7536bdf0$7f640945@JIMM> Message-ID: Back to the Biloxi word for "turkey": mayoka, apparently related to maxi, chicken, + (a)yoka, swamp. "Swamp chicken"?! Does anyone have any cognates for the Biloxi word at(u)kse, meaning cover, lid, or roof of a house? This is one of those u-circumflexes that may be either atukse or atakse, but I don't seem to find any firm cognates in my limited library of Siouan dictionaries. Thanks, Dave Jimm GoodTracks wrote: I had not heard the story of the name "Turkey" being applied to the N.Am bird via Africa & the country of Turkey. I would think that a name for the N.Am bird would have been well established by the earliest N & S. Am. colonists before the birds were imported/ deported to other continents. Surely, they would not have shiped an unknown "specimens" or "species" without calling them something. After all, look at the label Columbus gave indigenous Native Americans as he came upon them and sent a captured shipment of them to Spain, i.e., "Indians", based on his false assumption that he landed in India. (No need to get into the rest of his atrocities, the naming being the least one) The Turkey, the indigenous large bird of the N & S.Am that is nonmigratory, but is considered for both a game (hunting) and poultry bird (domestically raised for eating). The domestic bird is descended from the Mexican turkey, taken to Europe by the conquistadores in the 16th century. The wild turkey is a woodlands bird, gregarious except at breeding time. It is a good flyer. The Spanish for Turkey, the bird, is: "guajalote" and "guanajo" in Cuba. Another term is "pavo". The Turkey-Cock that was mentioned above is "gallipavo". I mention this as many Spanish names of New World animals & birds were taken directly from the local indigenous languages, and thus may be a clue to the English designation. For what it is worth, the N.Am central plains indigenous Ioway (Baxoje) name for Turkey is "tagro'gro", which leads one to think it is taken directly from the sounds that the turkey make. On the otherhand, their related neighbors, the Otoe-Missouria, simply called the bird: "waying'xanje" meaning -- big bird --. The Ioway, Otoe-Missoria are indigenous to the present regions of the states of Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri and Kansas [presently, removed to NE Kansas and central Oklahoma]. They are a Siouian Family language, most closely related to the Winnebago (Hochank) of Wisconsin [presently, of Wisconsin and Nebraska]. I have no idea what the the Eastern tribes of the present U.S. may have called the woodlands bird, which also may provide some clue as to the present name "Turkey". Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Miller" To: Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 4:12 AM Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey > > Hi, > Can anyone shed any light (or feathers) on the origin of "turkey", as in > the > bird: > I read that the Guinea Fowl was originally the so-called "turkey(-cock)" > because it was imported from Africa through the country Turkey. Later, due > to confusion, the native American bird gained the name. > What confusion? It seems to be a rather "we don't actually know" > explanation. > Thanks, > Nick Miller > > --- > avast! Antivirus: Odchozi zprava cista. > Virova databaze (VPS): 0534-2, 24.08.2005 > Testovano: 25.8.2005 11:12:35 > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sun Aug 28 03:46:16 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:46:16 -0500 Subject: [Spam:0005 SpamScore] Re: [Lexicog] Turkey Message-ID: > Back to the Biloxi word for "turkey": mayoka, apparently related to maxi, chicken, + (a)yoka, swamp. "Swamp chicken"?! Yes, /ma-/ is another gamebird root that recurs with numerous such birds with various modifiers. > Does anyone have any cognates for the Biloxi word at(u)kse, meaning cover, lid, or roof of a house? This is one of those u-circumflexes that may be either atukse or atakse, but I don't seem to find any firm cognates in my limited library of Siouan dictionaries. The CSD asks essentially the same question. a- is clearly a locative. Then you have either /dak-/ from *raka- 'by striking' or you have /du-/ 'by pulling or hands'. There is apparently a Hidatsa cognate for the root, but not the prefix. The prefix is listed with U-breve in the CSD. My only advice is to look for the same root with different instrumentals so you'll know whether the boundary comes before or after the -k-. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 28 16:42:37 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 10:42:37 -0600 Subject: Roof (RE: [Lexicog] Turkey) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Aug 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > Does anyone have any cognates for the Biloxi word at(u)kse, meaning > > cover, lid, or roof of a house? This is one of those u-circumflexes > > that may be either atukse or atakse, but I don't seem to find any firm > > cognates in my limited library of Siouan dictionaries. > The CSD asks essentially the same question. a- is clearly a locative. > Then you have either /dak-/ from *raka- 'by striking' or you have /du-/ > 'by pulling or hands'. There is apparently a Hidatsa cognate for the > root, but not the prefix. The prefix is listed with U-breve in the CSD. > My only advice is to look for the same root with different instrumentals > so you'll know whether the boundary comes before or after the -k-. I suppose it must refer to somehow thatching? From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 28 16:59:15 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 10:59:15 -0600 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: <20050828015459.28305.qmail@web53807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Aug 2005, David Kaufman wrote: > Probably. It'd be interesting to know how Italian (tacchino) and > Portuguese (peru/perua) got their terms, since the Latin word was > meleagris gallopavo, the obvious source of the Spanish pavo. I think the connection there might be Latin pavo 'peacock'. The second part of the Linneaan binominal, gallopavo, would be a compound with gallus 'cock chicken'. I'm not sure, but I believe gallopavo would be a Linneaan concoction from the Latin forms. I think that Spanish pavo would be a learned term borrowed from Latin. It seems fairly clear that the connection of the turkey with the India and the East, secondarily Turkey, arises from widespread association of it with the peacock. Meleagris refers to the Meleagrides, the sisters of Meleager, "who bitterly lamented his death and were turned in birds." Peacocks have a fairly loud and harsh call, though it doesn't sound like lamentation to me! From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Aug 28 17:08:40 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 12:08:40 -0500 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > I think the connection there might be Latin pavo 'peacock'. The second > part of the Linneaan binominal, gallopavo, would be a compound with > gallus 'cock chicken'. I'm not sure, but I believe gallopavo would be a > Linneaan concoction from the Latin forms. I think that Spanish pavo would > be a learned term borrowed from Latin. Sp. pavo dates from c.1300, when it meant 'peacock'. The simplex term came to be applied to the turkey, and the peacock has since been called pavo real 'royal [true] turkey'. From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 28 18:18:19 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:18:19 -0700 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I think the connection there might be Latin pavo 'peacock'. > > the peacock has since been called pavo real 'royal [true] turkey'. > Aha. The French, Italian, Portuguese, and Rumanian cognates of pavo are paon, pavone, pava~o, and paun, respectively, all meaning "peacock." This reminds me: does anyone know of a list like this for Romance languages? Dave Koontz John E wrote: On Sat, 27 Aug 2005, David Kaufman wrote: > Probably. It'd be interesting to know how Italian (tacchino) and > Portuguese (peru/perua) got their terms, since the Latin word was > meleagris gallopavo, the obvious source of the Spanish pavo. I think the connection there might be Latin pavo 'peacock'. The second part of the Linneaan binominal, gallopavo, would be a compound with gallus 'cock chicken'. I'm not sure, but I believe gallopavo would be a Linneaan concoction from the Latin forms. I think that Spanish pavo would be a learned term borrowed from Latin. It seems fairly clear that the connection of the turkey with the India and the East, secondarily Turkey, arises from widespread association of it with the peacock. Meleagris refers to the Meleagrides, the sisters of Meleager, "who bitterly lamented his death and were turned in birds." Peacocks have a fairly loud and harsh call, though it doesn't sound like lamentation to me! --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon Aug 29 14:47:46 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 09:47:46 -0500 Subject: Turkey Message-ID: > Meleagris refers to the Meleagrides, the sisters of Meleager, "who bitterly lamented his death and were turned in birds." Peacocks have a fairly loud and harsh call, though it doesn't sound like lamentation to me! We had a pair of them wander into our farm about 7 years ago. They were all over the countryside in Leavenworth County because their owner, as it turned out, had Alzheimers and couldn't care for his flock. We sort of adopted them for about 4 months and called them "Thelma and Louise", although they turned out to be Theodore and Louis. The first time you hear them cry it's shockingly like a woman screaming. Might fit someone's definition of "lamentation". The coyotes got one of them after awhile and we got some kid from 4-H to come out and adopt the other one. We actually lured it into a cage by placing a large mirror in the back of the pen and waiting. . . . Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Aug 30 03:26:22 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:26:22 -0600 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: <20050828181820.97730.qmail@web53807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Aug 2005, David Kaufman wrote: > Aha. The French, Italian, Portuguese, and Rumanian cognates of pavo are > paon, pavone, pava~o, and paun, respectively, all meaning "peacock." Well, probably not cognates, strictly speaking, i.e., the product of regular and parallel evolution from Vulgar Latin, but learned terms, borrowed from Classical Latin pavo/pavonis (Nom. sg., Gen sg.) into the various descendents at some later date. Historical linguistics gets complicated when the possibility of borrowing from a co-existing classical language exists, and especially when an ongoing tradition of interaction between the classical language and the daughter languages exists. Here, I think the treatment of the ending is regular - analogous with what would happen in an inherited form, but I'm not so sure about the medial /avo/ sequences, at least not in Spanish. Think of the paradigm for habeo. A somewhat similar situation exists with loans in any case. A lot of the acculturation vocabulary that Rory Larson was working with exiswts in multiple Siouan languages, ditto things like place names or ethnonyms. These often look rather like cognates, but a certain amount of outside - non-linguistic - information makes it clear thgat they can't be. Examples: 'watermelon' Santee sak[h]ayutapi, OP sakka dhide, Wi wic^aNwaNsake A very early European introduction that spread like wildfire, I believe. Regular enough in form, though this would seem to be the only OP relict of *(r)ut- 'eat', which is suspicious. 'Platte River' OP niN bdhaska, IO iN brake Perfectly regular, but probably a calque from Pawnee kickatus 'water flat'. 'Ioway' OP maxude, IO baxoj^e, Os baxoce, ppaxoce The second Osage version is irregular. Similar things happen with terms that sem like they ought to be native, e.g., 'tobacco' Dakota c^haNli, OP niNniN, Wi taaniN Tantalizingly similar, but not a regular correspondence. In fact, no two Siouan branches seem to agree. From Ogalala2 at aol.com Sat Aug 13 17:18:09 2005 From: Ogalala2 at aol.com (Ogalala2 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:18:09 EDT Subject: Status of "u" in Omaha-Ponca Message-ID: I need the Dheghan scholars to clarify the status of "u" in Omaha-Ponca. I was surprised to hear that Om-Po "u" was lost leaving only four oral vowels in this language. This loss occurred when u>ue>i. The oral "u" (not fronted) occurs in the works of Fletcher & La Flesche, Dorsey, Boaz, and all others that I am familiar with. How is this to be explained? Is the loss of "u" a recent occurrence? Is there another explanation? Please clarify this issue for me. Thanks, Ted Grimm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Sat Aug 13 17:24:25 2005 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:24:25 -0500 Subject: Rory M Larson is out of the office. Message-ID: I will be out of the office starting 08/06/2005 and will not return until 08/22/2005. I will respond to your message when I return. From rankin at ku.edu Sat Aug 13 22:00:17 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:00:17 -0500 Subject: Status of "u" in Omaha-Ponca Message-ID: Hi Ted, Yes, proto-Siouan *u merged with "i" just as you say. But THEN, afterward, "o" began being pronounced as "u". So nowadays there are still only 4 oral vowels, i, e, a, u. (As recently as the 1970's I was still hearing many of the modern "u" sounds still pronounced as "o". Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Ogalala2 at aol.com Sent: Sat 8/13/2005 12:18 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Status of "u" in Omaha-Ponca I need the Dheghan scholars to clarify the status of "u" in Omaha-Ponca. I was surprised to hear that Om-Po "u" was lost leaving only four oral vowels in this language. This loss occurred when u>ue>i. The oral "u" (not fronted) occurs in the works of Fletcher & La Flesche, Dorsey, Boaz, and all others that I am familiar with. How is this to be explained? Is the loss of "u" a recent occurrence? Is there another explanation? Please clarify this issue for me. Thanks, Ted Grimm From rankin at ku.edu Sun Aug 14 19:20:22 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:20:22 -0500 Subject: Status of "u" in Omaha-Ponca Message-ID: That IS interesting. The full(er) story of the Siouan change is that it affects Omaha, Ponca (presumably as a single change) and also Quapaw. I suspect the latter change is distinct and parallel, since Quapaw lacks important features that ALL the other 4 Dhegiha languages developed (e.g., use of -akha, -aWa as agentive articles). Kansa and Osage both preserve the intermediate stage with a front-rounded U-umlaut (plus the other 4 normal vowels). A few words with U-umlaut occur in Dorsey's Quapaw notes, but not his typescripts where he normalizes. I have also written about this as a possible accomodation to Algonquian dialects that have 4 vowel systems AND the C1C2 > C1C1 change that Dhegiha underwent. I'd have expected Kaw and Osage to have had the close contact with Wichita, as they seem to borrow the numeral 'eight', /kkiyadoba, hkidhatopa/ from Wichita. The Osages have a folk etymology for it that doesn't quite fit. Bob > I am intrigued by this information, even though I probably knew it once, because the major difference between Wichita and Pawnee vowels is that Wichita merged [u] and [i] to /i/. There are traces of the old *u in the morphophonemics. Some rules that apply before /i/ don't apply before certain /i/s, namely, those that go back to *u. Wichita then had a three vowel system with no front/back distinction: i/e/a. More recently they have evolved an /o:/ from VwV sequences, but I know of only one word with a short "o" in the whole language, and it's suspect, too, because it's /ho'os/, i.e. has a medial glottal stop and the two instances harmonize. I have no etymology for it, so it stands as a unique instance of that phoneme. I wonder about some sort of areal phenomenon now. That sound change strikes me as kind of unusual. (I know about conditioned umlaut and unrounding, e.g. foot/feet, of course, but that's not an unconditioned merger.) Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Sat, 13 Aug 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Hi Ted, > > Yes, proto-Siouan *u merged with "i" just as you say. But THEN, > afterward, "o" began being pronounced as "u". So nowadays there are > still only 4 oral vowels, i, e, a, u. (As recently as the 1970's I > was still hearing many of the modern "u" sounds still pronounced as > "o". > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Ogalala2 at aol.com > Sent: Sat 8/13/2005 12:18 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Status of "u" in Omaha-Ponca > > > I need the Dheghan scholars to clarify the status of "u" in > Omaha-Ponca. I was surprised to hear that Om-Po "u" was lost leaving > only four oral vowels in this language. This loss occurred when > u>ue>i. The oral "u" (not fronted) occurs in the works of Fletcher & > La Flesche, Dorsey, Boaz, and all others that I am familiar with. How > is this to be explained? Is the loss of "u" a recent occurrence? Is > there another explanation? Please clarify this issue for me. > > Thanks, Ted Grimm > > From rood at spot.colorado.edu Sun Aug 14 17:50:20 2005 From: rood at spot.colorado.edu (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:50:20 -0600 Subject: Status of "u" in Omaha-Ponca In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am intrigued by this information, even though I probably knew it once, because the major difference between Wichita and Pawnee vowels is that Wichita merged [u] and [i] to /i/. There are traces of the old *u in the morphophonemics. Some rules that apply before /i/ don't apply before certain /i/s, namely, those that go back to *u. Wichita then had a three vowel system with no front/back distinction: i/e/a. More recently they have evolved an /o:/ from VwV sequences, but I know of only one word with a short "o" in the whole language, and it's suspect, too, because it's /ho'os/, i.e. has a medial glottal stop and the two instances harmonize. I have no etymology for it, so it stands as a unique instance of that phoneme. I wonder about some sort of areal phenomenon now. That sound change strikes me as kind of unusual. (I know about conditioned umlaut and unrounding, e.g. foot/feet, of course, but that's not an unconditioned merger.) Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Sat, 13 Aug 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Hi Ted, > > Yes, proto-Siouan *u merged with "i" just as you say. But THEN, afterward, "o" began being pronounced as "u". So nowadays there are still only 4 oral vowels, i, e, a, u. (As recently as the 1970's I was still hearing many of the modern "u" sounds still pronounced as "o". > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Ogalala2 at aol.com > Sent: Sat 8/13/2005 12:18 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Status of "u" in Omaha-Ponca > > > I need the Dheghan scholars to clarify the status of "u" in Omaha-Ponca. I was surprised to hear that Om-Po "u" was lost leaving only four oral vowels in this language. This loss occurred when u>ue>i. The oral "u" (not fronted) occurs in the works of Fletcher & > La Flesche, Dorsey, Boaz, and all others that I am familiar with. How is this to be explained? Is the loss of "u" a recent occurrence? Is there another explanation? Please clarify this issue for me. > > Thanks, Ted Grimm > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Aug 16 00:38:52 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:38:52 -0600 Subject: Status of "u" in Omaha-Ponca In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dhegiha, just when you were ready to write *V[a features] > V[a features] in the list of Siouan sound changes. On Sat, 13 Aug 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Yes, proto-Siouan *u merged with "i" just as you say. But THEN, > afterward, "o" began being pronounced as "u". So nowadays there are > still only 4 oral vowels, i, e, a, u. (As recently as the 1970's I was > still hearing many of the modern "u" sounds still pronounced as "o". As Bob has explained, we have two changes here. First a merger of *u and *i as i, which also occurs in Quapaw. Second, a shift of *o to u. I'd assume that the two changes are less a matter of sequential independent changes than parallel, associated, and simultaneous shifts in the use of the vowel space. However, there are problems with that notion. First, there is the failure of *o to shift in Quapaw (per Dorsey, who says it shifts in OP) and the question of whether Omaha-Ponca /u/ is really [u] (see below). Second, we do have a distinct tendency for *u to be [] (a high rounded front vowel] in Osage and Kaw, without any remarked upon shift upward in *o. For what it's worth, I am fairly sure that both Kaw and Osage have in some cases substituted u [u"] for *i or i for *u in some sets, so that, even without a merger there seems to have been some confusion or swapping. Example, Os -ci, OP =di LOC, cf. Dakotan =l ~ =tu, or Kaw -gu- DAT, OP -gi-, cf. Dakotan -ki-. I suppose this would have to be a case of "isoglosses" for some words or morphemes with /u/ or /i/ shifting ahead of others, though this is an idea that not all linguists happy with. Anyway, I do not believe this ever happens in accented syllables or non-grammatical elements. In short, it happens in unaccented and/or analogy-prone environments. Since Dorsey always writes u for PS > MDh *o, I assume that the shift to the present value was complete by the 1880s. I don't recall noticing anything bearing on earlier values in the limited earlier sources. Maximillian might be the best place to look. I've always assumed that Bob's "o" examples result from his better appreciation of what a genuine IPA o would be. English speakers in general are ill-prepared to perceive o and many Americans are weak on u, too, I've noticed. Also, I may be worse than average at distinguishing either, due to personal and dialect deficiencies. In regard to the latter admission, I was born in the same dialect area as JOD (Tidewater) and proceeded to Colorado via Detroit, which would be enough to dull anyone's vocalic sensibilities. As I recall Tidewater English doesn't have o or u or (aesc). It has e^w, , and e^. (I'm not sure I could do better with IPA.) It was some years before folks in Colorado stopped asked me where I was from. Most thought England. As to the personal deficiences above and beyond dialect, I am coming to realize that I have not always risen attentively to the details of Omaha phonology. This said, I've never had any problem hearing any and all of the higher back vowels in Omaha as u (as opposed to a, though not necessarily to anything else). It *might* be a lower sort of u, but I'm not able to say. What is usually written o in Omaha-Ponca (e.g., by LaFlesche and in the current popular systems) is the /au/ diphthong that arises when the male speech particle /u/ is added to a final /a/, e.g., dadi-hau < dadi 'father' + ha 'vocative' + u 'male speaker'. This also occurs in the particle /hau/ used in male-to-male greetings, male expressions of approbation, etc. This is probably not a coincidence, though /hau/ as a greeting is somewhat widespread in North America, especially Northeastern North America, but, e.g., it is also found in Hopi, I think. Just to be clear, what Bob consistantly hears (and usually writes) as o in Omaha-Ponca is not this /au/ diphthong, but /u/ (i.e., what Dorsey, LaFlesche, the current popular systems and others, including myself write as u). For what it is worth, the three nasal vowels of Proto-Siouan (and, e.g., Dakotan), i.e., iN, aN, and uN - the latter more like [oN] in Dakotan - come out in Dorsey's writing of OP as iN and aN, the latter representing a merger of aN and uN. LaFlesche writes oN for this merger. In fact, he usually writes moN and noN where Dorsey writes ma and na (with no indication of nasality) for /maN/ and /naN/, though he retains ma and na for unnasalized ma and na, e.g., in ama 'the' < *aWa. One interesting minimal pair for na vs. naN are the instrumenals na= < *Ra= 'by heat, spontaneously' vs. naN- 'by foot'. If you see the merger of aN and oN as a raising to oN, then this parallels the up and forward rotation of u to u" or i and o to u. However, Dhegihanists are not really sure if *aN and *uN have merged. On alternate days they think they just have trouble hearing the difference. Maybe some aN have merged with uN as something like oN and some have not. Some examples seem to turn on adjacent x vs. adjacent gh (gamma). Some may be a matter of length of word final position. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Aug 16 01:05:19 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:05:19 -0600 Subject: Status of "u" in Omaha-Ponca In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Aug 2005, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > I am intrigued by this information, even though I probably knew it once, > because the major difference between Wichita and Pawnee vowels is that > Wichita merged [u] and [i] to /i/. There are traces of the old *u in > the morphophonemics. Some rules that apply before /i/ don't apply > before certain /i/s, namely, those that go back to *u. This is sort of like * in Eastern Eskimo. The historic fourth vowel that merges everywhere with *i, *a, or *u on the surface, but tends to retain its own consistant pattern of morphophonemics. > Wichita then had a three vowel system with no front/back distinction: > i/e/a. More recently they have evolved an /o:/ from VwV sequences, but > I know of only one word with a short "o" in the whole language, and it's > suspect, too, because it's /ho'os/, i.e. has a medial glottal stop and > the two instances harmonize. I have no etymology for it, so it stands as > a unique instance of that phoneme. What does ho'os mean? > I wonder about some sort of areal phenomenon now. That sound change > strikes me as kind of unusual. (I know about conditioned umlaut and > unrounding, e.g. foot/feet, of course, but that's not an unconditioned > merger.) I think this sort of unmotivated rounding of *u is not entirely without precedent. For example, what about */u/ > /u"/ in Greek and French? I think in both cases this is essentially unmotivated and accompanied by a (preceding? subsequent?) shift of */ou/ > /u/. I also think, but am not sure, that (Ancient) Greek /u"/ becomes Modern /i/, too. However, these are the only similar examples I know of. Western American English does a sort of unmotivated unrounding and centering of (=> or ), e.g., in good, book, look, etc. I don't know if this is similar enough to be considered a parallel. From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Tue Aug 16 14:58:16 2005 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:58:16 -0600 Subject: Status of "u" in Omaha-Ponca In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ho'os means 'nearby in time'. With future or present tense, it means 'soon'; with past tenses, it means 'recently' or 'shortly before or after that'. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 15 Aug 2005, Koontz John E wrote: > On Sun, 14 Aug 2005, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > > I am intrigued by this information, even though I probably knew it once, > > because the major difference between Wichita and Pawnee vowels is that > > Wichita merged [u] and [i] to /i/. There are traces of the old *u in > > the morphophonemics. Some rules that apply before /i/ don't apply > > before certain /i/s, namely, those that go back to *u. > > This is sort of like * in Eastern Eskimo. The historic fourth > vowel that merges everywhere with *i, *a, or *u on the surface, but tends > to retain its own consistant pattern of morphophonemics. > > > Wichita then had a three vowel system with no front/back distinction: > > i/e/a. More recently they have evolved an /o:/ from VwV sequences, but > > I know of only one word with a short "o" in the whole language, and it's > > suspect, too, because it's /ho'os/, i.e. has a medial glottal stop and > > the two instances harmonize. I have no etymology for it, so it stands as > > a unique instance of that phoneme. > > What does ho'os mean? > > > I wonder about some sort of areal phenomenon now. That sound change > > strikes me as kind of unusual. (I know about conditioned umlaut and > > unrounding, e.g. foot/feet, of course, but that's not an unconditioned > > merger.) > > I think this sort of unmotivated rounding of *u is not entirely without > precedent. For example, what about */u/ > /u"/ in Greek and French? I > think in both cases this is essentially unmotivated and accompanied by a > (preceding? subsequent?) shift of */ou/ > /u/. I also think, but am not > sure, that (Ancient) Greek /u"/ becomes Modern /i/, too. However, these > are the only similar examples I know of. > > Western American English does a sort of unmotivated unrounding and > centering of (=> or ), e.g., in good, book, > look, etc. I don't know if this is similar enough to be considered a > parallel. > From goodtracks at gbronline.com Sat Aug 20 20:41:39 2005 From: goodtracks at gbronline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 15:41:39 -0500 Subject: Fw: HAWEH__AN OSAGE UPDATE Message-ID: This is an update on the Osage Language Program at Pawhuska, Okla, which may or may not be shared with the other two Osage communities of Grey Horse and Hominy. I thought I'd forward it in part for those interested in the progress of applied linguistics in the home communities of any particular language represented on this list. "Hawe' " is Osage for Greetings! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 9:26 PM Subject: HAWEH i got carolyns book... she did a lot of work in that book and no doubt she probably knows more about Osage than I do. after reading it I am much more aware in a general sense of Osage grammar. however she has written her book for academic peers and not Osages. Talee has been coaching me through the book as he seems to be about the only one who has grasped it (he was an editor on it) Its a good book with lots of good information but it is written way out of the reach of an everyday Osage. Even when Talee explains it he is off the charts of most people. So I am kind of trying to fill the role of talee translating caroylns book and im translating talee and trying to explain it to normal people. I ordered all that sound and video equipment for the Osage. Got them trained on how to use it. Good Mics. Good Camera's. Good everything. They are making their language cds now. They sound professional. They are also making videos for kids and adults as well. The Osage alphabet is progressing along. Although I wish I could have more input on it since I have a lot of knowledge in typography and type design and how it needs to be cohesive. Right now they are making 1 letter at a time. That to me is scary. But they decided to not introduce the alphabet to new students till further along in the curriculum. This will prevent any fouling up of the words after a student has a good handle on all the Osage sounds... Hearing them first, before seeing them I think is important. I got to meet Justin McBride. Very bright & very intelligent guy. I like his approach to language and his understanding and comprehension of Kaw. His approach is more holistic and i think thats why i agree with a lot of what he says. Language without cultural context isnt language, it's code. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 17:47:48 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:47:48 -0700 Subject: Fw: HAWEH__AN OSAGE UPDATE In-Reply-To: <003401c5a5d4$46eb4240$40640945@JIMM> Message-ID: Haweh Jimm, Nice to know that Osage revitalization is moving right along. And I like your quote: > Language without cultural context isnt language, it's code. > So true! Dave Jimm GoodTracks wrote: This is an update on the Osage Language Program at Pawhuska, Okla, which may or may not be shared with the other two Osage communities of Grey Horse and Hominy. I thought I'd forward it in part for those interested in the progress of applied linguistics in the home communities of any particular language represented on this list. "Hawe' " is Osage for Greetings! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 9:26 PM Subject: HAWEH i got carolyns book... she did a lot of work in that book and no doubt she probably knows more about Osage than I do. after reading it I am much more aware in a general sense of Osage grammar. however she has written her book for academic peers and not Osages. Talee has been coaching me through the book as he seems to be about the only one who has grasped it (he was an editor on it) Its a good book with lots of good information but it is written way out of the reach of an everyday Osage. Even when Talee explains it he is off the charts of most people. So I am kind of trying to fill the role of talee translating caroylns book and im translating talee and trying to explain it to normal people. I ordered all that sound and video equipment for the Osage. Got them trained on how to use it. Good Mics. Good Camera's. Good everything. They are making their language cds now. They sound professional. They are also making videos for kids and adults as well. The Osage alphabet is progressing along. Although I wish I could have more input on it since I have a lot of knowledge in typography and type design and how it needs to be cohesive. Right now they are making 1 letter at a time. That to me is scary. But they decided to not introduce the alphabet to new students till further along in the curriculum. This will prevent any fouling up of the words after a student has a good handle on all the Osage sounds... Hearing them first, before seeing them I think is important. I got to meet Justin McBride. Very bright & very intelligent guy. I like his approach to language and his understanding and comprehension of Kaw. His approach is more holistic and i think thats why i agree with a lot of what he says. Language without cultural context isnt language, it's code. --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goodtracks at gbronline.com Thu Aug 25 15:33:06 2005 From: goodtracks at gbronline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 10:33:06 -0500 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey Message-ID: I had not heard the story of the name "Turkey" being applied to the N.Am bird via Africa & the country of Turkey. I would think that a name for the N.Am bird would have been well established by the earliest N & S. Am. colonists before the birds were imported/ deported to other continents. Surely, they would not have shiped an unknown "specimens" or "species" without calling them something. After all, look at the label Columbus gave indigenous Native Americans as he came upon them and sent a captured shipment of them to Spain, i.e., "Indians", based on his false assumption that he landed in India. (No need to get into the rest of his atrocities, the naming being the least one) The Turkey, the indigenous large bird of the N & S.Am that is nonmigratory, but is considered for both a game (hunting) and poultry bird (domestically raised for eating). The domestic bird is descended from the Mexican turkey, taken to Europe by the conquistadores in the 16th century. The wild turkey is a woodlands bird, gregarious except at breeding time. It is a good flyer. The Spanish for Turkey, the bird, is: "guajalote" and "guanajo" in Cuba. Another term is "pavo". The Turkey-Cock that was mentioned above is "gallipavo". I mention this as many Spanish names of New World animals & birds were taken directly from the local indigenous languages, and thus may be a clue to the English designation. For what it is worth, the N.Am central plains indigenous Ioway (Baxoje) name for Turkey is "tagro'gro", which leads one to think it is taken directly from the sounds that the turkey make. On the otherhand, their related neighbors, the Otoe-Missouria, simply called the bird: "waying'xanje" meaning -- big bird --. The Ioway, Otoe-Missoria are indigenous to the present regions of the states of Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri and Kansas [presently, removed to NE Kansas and central Oklahoma]. They are a Siouian Family language, most closely related to the Winnebago (Hochank) of Wisconsin [presently, of Wisconsin and Nebraska]. I have no idea what the the Eastern tribes of the present U.S. may have called the woodlands bird, which also may provide some clue as to the present name "Turkey". Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Miller" To: Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 4:12 AM Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey > > Hi, > Can anyone shed any light (or feathers) on the origin of "turkey", as in > the > bird: > I read that the Guinea Fowl was originally the so-called "turkey(-cock)" > because it was imported from Africa through the country Turkey. Later, due > to confusion, the native American bird gained the name. > What confusion? It seems to be a rather "we don't actually know" > explanation. > Thanks, > Nick Miller > > --- > avast! Antivirus: Odchozi zprava cista. > Virova databaze (VPS): 0534-2, 24.08.2005 > Testovano: 25.8.2005 11:12:35 > From Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc Thu Aug 25 17:41:18 2005 From: Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc (Louis Garcia) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:41:18 -0500 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: <002b01c5a98a$7536bdf0$7f640945@JIMM> Message-ID: The Spirit Lake Dakota (Ft. Totten, ND) call the turkey Zizica [zee -zee'-cha(another puzzle as the name means nothing). From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 18:50:20 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:50:20 -0700 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: <20050825171428.5B6D5310F10@mail.littlehoop.cc> Message-ID: I always found it fascinating that the words for "turkey" are usually quite different across Europe and even among the Latin languages themselves, e.g., Spanish (Cast.) pavo, Italian tacchino, French dinde or dindon, Portuguese peru'. Different Spanish-speaking countries also borrowed indigenous words that they use in preference to the conquistador's Castilian word, as Jimm pointed out, such as guajolote in Mexico. For what it's worth, the Biloxi word is ma (yoka), which seems to be related to the word for chicken, maxi. The Cherokee words are gvna (v pronounced aN) and kalagisa. Not sure if that helps anything. Dave Louis Garcia wrote: The Spirit Lake Dakota (Ft. Totten, ND) call the turkey Zizica [zee -zee'-cha(another puzzle as the name means nothing). --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Aug 25 18:56:50 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:56:50 -0700 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey Message-ID: A word in common usage in Guatemalan Spanish is 'chompipe'. I'm sure someone has worked out where that's from, but I don't happen to know about it. The Proto-Algonquian word for 'turkey', *pele:wa, can be etymologized as literally meaning 'flier'. Dave C I always found it fascinating that the words for "turkey" are usually quite different across Europe and even among the Latin languages themselves, e.g., Spanish (Cast.) pavo, Italian tacchino, French dinde or dindon, Portuguese peru'. Different Spanish-speaking countries also borrowed indigenous words that they use in preference to the conquistador's Castilian word, as Jimm pointed out, such as guajolote in Mexico. For what it's worth, the Biloxi word is ma (yoka), which seems to be related to the word for chicken, maxi. The Cherokee words are gvna (v pronounced aN) and kalagisa. Not sure if that helps anything. Dave Louis Garcia wrote: The Spirit Lake Dakota (Ft. Totten, ND) call the turkey Zizica [zee -zee'-cha(another puzzle as the name means nothing). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Aug 25 19:08:31 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:08:31 -0500 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David Costa wrote: > The Proto-Algonquian word for 'turkey', */pele:wa/, can be etymologized > as literally meaning 'flier'. which comes out in Ojibway as bine 'partridge, ruffed grouse' and binesi 'bird (of a large species)'. Turkey is mizise. /pele:wa/ descendants in Plains Cree mean 'bird' and 'prairie chicken'. Alan From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Aug 25 19:12:14 2005 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 20:12:14 +0100 Subject: Turkey Message-ID: Folks: The Mexican Spanish word is a loan from Nahuatl /we'$olotl/, I believe, which passed into some other American languages, including Karankawa. "Chicken" is a Wanderwort in the SE - Chitimacha and Tunica both borrowed their word from Caddo, which (this is from memory, so apologies to wally) has something like /k'apahci/. Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 19:12:22 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:12:22 -0700 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > A word in common usage in Guatemalan Spanish is 'chompipe'. I'm sure someone has worked out where that's from, but I don't happen to know about it. > A Mayan dialect, perhaps? It just occurred to me that the second Cherokee word I gave, kalagisa, may be related to the word for "goose" (sasa). Not sure about the kalagi-, karaki- part. Perhaps one of the Iroquoianists would know. Dave David Costa wrote: A word in common usage in Guatemalan Spanish is 'chompipe'. I'm sure someone has worked out where that's from, but I don't happen to know about it. The Proto-Algonquian word for 'turkey', *pele:wa, can be etymologized as literally meaning 'flier'. Dave C I always found it fascinating that the words for "turkey" are usually quite different across Europe and even among the Latin languages themselves, e.g., Spanish (Cast.) pavo, Italian tacchino, French dinde or dindon, Portuguese peru'. Different Spanish-speaking countries also borrowed indigenous words that they use in preference to the conquistador's Castilian word, as Jimm pointed out, such as guajolote in Mexico. For what it's worth, the Biloxi word is ma (yoka), which seems to be related to the word for chicken, maxi. The Cherokee words are gvna (v pronounced aN) and kalagisa. Not sure if that helps anything. Dave Louis Garcia wrote: The Spirit Lake Dakota (Ft. Totten, ND) call the turkey Zizica [zee -zee'-cha(another puzzle as the name means nothing). --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Aug 25 19:12:00 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:12:00 -0500 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey Message-ID: Unfortunately, I inadvertently erased Louis Garcia's response, so if anything I say here repeats his words, please forgive me. Just a couple of things: the French called the wild turkey "coq d'Inde," "India cock". Make of that what you will. The term for the North American wild turkey (Meleagris gallopovo) is reconstructible for Proto-Algonquian: */pele:wa/, which includes the medial */-i?le:-/ 'fly', as in PA */wempi?le:wa/ 'he flies up'. Miami-Illinois has /pileewa/; Shawnee /peleewa/. As for the Spanish name for the turkey, that comes from the Nahuatl term for turkey cock, hueixolotl. That's all I know. Michael From rankin at ku.edu Thu Aug 25 19:29:01 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:29:01 -0500 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey Message-ID: In several other related languages however the term means variously 'partridge, prairie chicken, turkey' so is or was a more general term for gallinaceous birds. Dhegiha terms for 'chicken' are derived from the same root. Bob > The Spirit Lake Dakota (Ft. Totten, ND) call the turkey Zizica [zee -zee'-cha(another puzzle as the name means nothing). From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Aug 25 19:37:17 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:37:17 -0700 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey Message-ID: Actually, */pele:wa/ is more complicated than I realized. Here's the breakdown: 'turkey': Shawnee, Fox, Miami, Potawatomi, Delaware 'grouse' (of some kind): Ojibwe, Menominee, Cree, Micmac, Arapaho/GrosVentre I'm a tad reluctant to reconstruct this as 'grouse' since there are better Proto-Algonquian candidates for that. Perhaps its true PA meaning is 'salient local game fowl'. Ojibwe mizise is from an etymon (*/me?$i?le:wa/, lit., 'big flier') that seems to mean 'turkey' most of the time, and 'prairie chicken' the rest of the time. 'turkey': Ojibwe, Cree, Cheyenne, Menominee 'prairie chicken': Fox, Miami Dave > David Costa wrote: > >> The Proto-Algonquian word for 'turkey', */pele:wa/, can be etymologized >> as literally meaning 'flier'. > > which comes out in Ojibway as bine 'partridge, ruffed grouse' and binesi > 'bird (of a large species)'. Turkey is mizise. > > /pele:wa/ descendants in Plains Cree mean 'bird' and 'prairie chicken'. > > Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Aug 25 19:39:06 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:39:06 -0500 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting "Rankin, Robert L" : > In several other related languages however the term means variously > 'partridge, prairie chicken, turkey' so is or was a more general term > for gallinaceous birds. Dhegiha terms for 'chicken' are derived from > the same root. > > Bob > Similarly, Miami-Illinois derives the name for the domestic turkey from its name for the wild one. The domestic one is called /waapipilia/ 'white-turkey'. Michael > > The Spirit Lake Dakota (Ft. Totten, ND) call the turkey Zizica [zee > -zee'-cha(another puzzle as the name means nothing). > > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Aug 25 19:46:11 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:46:11 -0500 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That's nice. Thanks. Quoting David Costa : > Actually, */pele:wa/ is more complicated than I realized. > > Here's the breakdown: > > 'turkey': Shawnee, Fox, Miami, Potawatomi, Delaware > > 'grouse' (of some kind): Ojibwe, Menominee, Cree, Micmac, Arapaho/GrosVentre > > I'm a tad reluctant to reconstruct this as 'grouse' since there are better > Proto-Algonquian candidates for that. Perhaps its true PA meaning is > 'salient local game fowl'. > > Ojibwe mizise is from an etymon (*/me?$i?le:wa/, lit., 'big flier') that > seems to mean 'turkey' most of the time, and 'prairie chicken' the rest of > the time. > > 'turkey': Ojibwe, Cree, Cheyenne, Menominee > > 'prairie chicken': Fox, Miami > > Dave > > > > David Costa wrote: > > > >> The Proto-Algonquian word for 'turkey', */pele:wa/, can be etymologized > >> as literally meaning 'flier'. > > > > which comes out in Ojibway as bine 'partridge, ruffed grouse' and binesi > > 'bird (of a large species)'. Turkey is mizise. > > > > /pele:wa/ descendants in Plains Cree mean 'bird' and 'prairie chicken'. > > > > Alan > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Aug 25 20:01:42 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:01:42 -0700 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey Message-ID: Actually, in modern Miami-Illinois, /pileewa/ is glossed both 'turkey' and 'chicken'. However, /waapipilia/ (a much rarer word) only means 'turkey'. This would lead me to believe that /waapipilia/ is a neologism designed to disambiguate things -- to create a word that specifically means 'turkey' and not 'chicken'. However, against that is the statement by some speakers from a hundred years or so ago that /waapipilia/ was an 'old name'. But none of the 18th-century Jesuit sources have it. Hmmm. (To get 'wild turkey', you just attach the prenoun /nalaaohki-/ 'wild' to it: /nalaaohki-pileewa/.) Dave > Similarly, Miami-Illinois derives the name for the domestic turkey from its > name for the wild one. The domestic one is called /waapipilia/ 'white-turkey'. > Michael > Quoting "Rankin, Robert L" : >> In several other related languages however the term means variously >> 'partridge, prairie chicken, turkey' so is or was a more general term for >> gallinaceous birds. Dhegiha terms for 'chicken' are derived from the same >> root. >> Bob >>> The Spirit Lake Dakota (Ft. Totten, ND) call the turkey Zizica [zee >>> -zee'-cha(another puzzle as the name means nothing). From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Thu Aug 25 20:24:19 2005 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:24:19 -0600 Subject: m's and w's and Mitasse: Caddoan phonology question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I hope that the Siouanists will tolerate a little Caddoan on this list, just as they do at the annual meetings, since there is not ever likely to be a Caddoan discussion list. I have a very speculative idea about some phonological possibilities, and maybe some of you can relate to my musings. When Mary C. Kelley first contacted Victor Golla about the possible etymology of the name Mittase, and Victor passed the query on to Wally and me before publishing it in the SSILA newsletter, Mary and I had some correspondence in which she copied this intriguing paragraph from a book for me: >>From the book, Pioneering in the Southwest by A. J. Holt (father of Mittase Holt) pub. 1923, p 135: "The most promising tribe in receiving the gospel was the Wacoes (sic). The chief of this tribe was Buffalo Good. This really great man was noble and spirited and an Indian of giant mould. He was born in Waco Village, before Texas became a republic. The city of Waco, Texas, was so named because of the Indian name that attached to it and that was called from the tribe of Indians who lived there. The manner of the pronunciation of this name sounded more like 'Maidaco" than Waco, but in adapting the name to the English tongue it became simply Waco." So at least one English speaking witness thought that a word that seems to have an initial /w/ in most of its instances was pronounced with something that sounded more like [m] by one Waco speaker. Now, add to this the fact that Wichita has no /m/ phoneme, except in two verb roots, both of which have medial geminate [mm]. (One means 'grind corn' and the other means 'hoe'). Next bit of information: In modern Wichita, [n] and [r] are in complementary distribution, with [n] occurring initially, geminate, and before alveolars, while [r] occurs before vowels or laryngeals. (Neither one occurs before /k/ or /kw/.) What if, in Waco or even older Wichita, [w] and [m] had a distribution parallel to modern Wichita [r] and [n]? Do any other phonologists out there think this is at all plausible? If it is, then the name "Mittase" might have an initial phonemic /w/. Unfortunately, I can't go any further than that, because /witasi/, or /wirasi/ (many English speakers write the tapped [r] as _tt_), or other variations I can dream up still don't match with any morphemes I know that might lead to the meaning 'white baby' or 'white child'. What does anyone else think of the [m] = [w] speculation? Thanks. DAvid David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Aug 25 20:37:22 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:37:22 -0600 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: <1124997120.430e180036bc2@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > Just a couple of things: the French called the wild turkey "coq d'Inde," > "India cock". Make of that what you will. I tend to suspect that "turkey" in English "Turkey bird" derives from this eastern connection - with one exotic heathen not too carefully distinguished from another. The suggestion from Nick Miller that the whole scheme derives from using the same terms for pea fowl, which also do a spread-tail display, makes sense, and explains the (East) Indian/Turkish connection. A wonderful childhood memory of mine is being allowed to pick up as many fallen peacock tailfeathers as I liked on the grounds of an estate on the Eastern Shore that kept a flock. A "distant uncle" - in the words of Hank Williams - was caretaker of the place. Alas, peacocks usually don't drop them until they've used them a bit and then they walk around on them doing what birds do. I think our mother may have edited our collection some later without telling us. From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Thu Aug 25 21:03:11 2005 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:03:11 -0700 Subject: Turkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't know if this is relevant to this discussion, but Tony Grant is right about the Caddo word for chicken, except that it has a glottal stop at the end. -ci? is a diminutive suffix, so it's a little k'apah, whatever that is. The Caddo for turkey is nu?, a short word indeed, which makes it seem as if they knew turkeys for a long time. Wally > The Mexican Spanish word is a loan from Nahuatl /we'$olotl/, I believe, > which passed into some other American languages, including Karankawa. > > "Chicken" is a Wanderwort in the SE - Chitimacha and Tunica both > borrowed their word from Caddo, which (this is from memory, so apologies > to wally) has something like /k'apahci/. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Aug 25 21:05:30 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:05:30 -0600 Subject: m's and w's and Mitasse: Caddoan phonology question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Aug 2005, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > I hope that the Siouanists will tolerate a little Caddoan on this list, > just as they do at the annual meetings, since there is not ever likely to > be a Caddoan discussion list. I have a very speculative idea about some > phonological possibilities, and maybe some of you can relate to my > musings. Actually, we could easily start a Caddoan discussion list in parallel with the Siouan one and I would happily take care of the administrative details. My fear is that there wouldn't be any Caddoanist discussion, for want of Caddoanists as much as anything. I've always enjoyed the Caddoanist papers at the SACC meetings. David's paper on Wichita syntax in 2004 was the first time I felt like I grasped how Caddoan languages work. It was a sort of "whoa - another way" moment. > ... So at least one English speaking witness thought that a word that > seems to have an initial /w/ in most of its instances was pronounced > with something that sounded more like [m] by one Waco speaker. Now, add > to this the fact that Wichita has no /m/ phoneme, except in two verb > roots, both of which have medial geminate [mm]. (One means 'grind corn' > and the other means 'hoe'). > > Next bit of information: In modern Wichita, [n] and [r] are in > complementary distribution, with [n] occurring initially, geminate, and > before alveolars, while [r] occurs before vowels or laryngeals. (Neither > one occurs before /k/ or /kw/.) > > What if, in Waco or even older Wichita, [w] and [m] had a distribution > parallel to modern Wichita [r] and [n]? Do any other phonologists out > there think this is at all plausible? I was wondering about this just by analogy with Crow and Hidatsa. I think the phonology is entirely plausible. Notice that the extant m examples in Wichita are geminate, and /r/ is [nn] when geminate, apparently a more common situation with /r/. In terms of Siouan parallels, geminate /w/ and /r/ are [mm] and [nn] in Crow, and initial position is one in which Hidatsa has [m] and [n]. > If it is, then the name "Mittase" might have an initial phonemic /w/. > Unfortunately, I can't go any further than that, because /witasi/, or > /wirasi/ (many English speakers write the tapped [r] as _tt_), or other > variations I can dream up still don't match with any morphemes I know > that might lead to the meaning 'white baby' or 'white child'. Mrs. Kelly has indicated to me that the final part of the name is currently /es/ in her family, though the original Holt family usage may have been /esi/. I don't know if that helps any. > What does anyone else think of the [m] = [w] speculation? It seems reasonable. I don't really have any ideas on the glossing in Wichita terms beyond that! Well, maybe one. I think you pointed out to me in connection with discussions of the attested term for 'white man' that -s- was the linking element in compounds. So perhaps wite(??)-s-(i)? It was interesting to see the Osage loan for 'white man'. From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Thu Aug 25 21:07:27 2005 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:07:27 -0700 Subject: m's and w's and Mitasse: Caddoan phonology question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Of course, m and w alternate across various Caddo dialects. See names like Midish or whatever, corresponding to modern Caddo widish "salt". Wally > I hope that the Siouanists will tolerate a little Caddoan on this list, > just as they do at the annual meetings, since there is not ever likely to > be a Caddoan discussion list. I have a very speculative idea about some > phonological possibilities, and maybe some of you can relate to my > musings. > > When Mary C. Kelley first contacted Victor Golla about the possible > etymology of the name Mittase, and Victor passed the query on to Wally and > me before publishing it in the SSILA newsletter, Mary and I had some > correspondence in which she copied this intriguing paragraph from a book > for me: > >> From the book, Pioneering in the Southwest by A. J. Holt (father of > Mittase Holt) pub. 1923, p 135: > "The most promising tribe in receiving the gospel was the Wacoes (sic). > The chief of this tribe was Buffalo Good. This really great man was > noble and spirited and an Indian of giant mould. He was born in Waco > Village, before Texas became a republic. The city of Waco, Texas, was so > named because of the Indian name that attached to it and that was called > from the tribe of Indians who lived there. The manner of the > pronunciation of this name sounded more like 'Maidaco" than Waco, but in > adapting the name to the English tongue it became simply Waco." > > So at least one English speaking witness thought that a word that seems to > have an initial /w/ in most of its instances was pronounced with something > that sounded more like [m] by one Waco speaker. Now, add to this the fact > that Wichita has no /m/ phoneme, except in two verb roots, both of which > have medial geminate [mm]. (One means 'grind corn' and the other means > 'hoe'). > > Next bit of information: In modern Wichita, [n] and [r] are in > complementary distribution, with [n] occurring initially, geminate, and > before alveolars, while [r] occurs before vowels or laryngeals. (Neither > one occurs before /k/ or /kw/.) > > What if, in Waco or even older Wichita, [w] and [m] had a distribution > parallel to modern Wichita [r] and [n]? Do any other phonologists out > there think this is at all plausible? If it is, then the name "Mittase" > might have an initial phonemic /w/. Unfortunately, I can't go any further > than that, because /witasi/, or /wirasi/ (many English speakers write the > tapped [r] as _tt_), or other variations I can dream up still don't match > with any morphemes I know that might lead to the meaning 'white baby' or > 'white child'. > > What does anyone else think of the [m] = [w] speculation? > > Thanks. > DAvid > > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > From BARudes at aol.com Thu Aug 25 21:28:30 2005 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:28:30 EDT Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey Message-ID: In a message dated 8/25/2005 4:40:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, John.Koontz at colorado.edu writes: On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > Just a couple of things: the French called the wild turkey "coq d'Inde," > "India cock". Make of that what you will. I tend to suspect that "turkey" in English "Turkey bird" derives from this eastern connection - with one exotic heathen not too carefully distinguished from another. The suggestion from Nick Miller that the whole scheme derives from using the same terms for pea fowl, which also do a spread-tail display, makes sense, and explains the (East) Indian/Turkish connection. A wonderful childhood memory of mine is being allowed to pick up as many fallen peacock tailfeathers as I liked on the grounds of an estate on the Eastern Shore that kept a flock. A "distant uncle" - in the words of Hank Williams - was caretaker of the place. Alas, peacocks usually don't drop them until they've used them a bit and then they walk around on them doing what birds do. I think our mother may have edited our collection some later without telling us. Some of the indigenous names for the ?turkey? on the East Coast were: Virginia Algonquian (Powhatan) monanaw (and similar spellings) ?a turkey? (William Strachey, 1612) -- It is perhaps noteworthy that the English were already calling the bird 'a turkey' during the early years of the Jamestown settlement. Narragansett neyhom (Roger Williams) Natick nahiam (Wood) Old Abenaki nahame (Rasles) Old Delaware tshikenum (Zeisburger) Catawba watkaN (or witkaN) su:riye ?lit. wild fowl? (modern Iroquoian forms are from the dictionaries published by University of Toronto Press, Wally Chafe?s Seneca dictionary, and Gunther Michelson?s Mohawk dictionary) Old Tuscarora Coona ?A Turkey? (Lawson 1701) (modern Tuscarora keN:neN? ? turkey?) (cognate with the Cherokee word gvna that Dave cited; also Nottoway kunum ?turkey?). Cayuga sohoN:t ?turkey? (Froman, Keye, Keye & Dyck) Seneca o?so:oNt ?turkey? (Chafe) Onondnaga honuNdaheNhweNh, nedaheNhwah ?turkey? (Woodbury) Oneida skawilo:wane? ?turkey? (Michelson & Doxtator) Mohawk skawero:wane? ?turkey? (G. Michelson) Huron ondettontaque ?coq d?inde? (Sagard) Wyandot detoN:ta? ?turkey? (Barbeau) Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Aug 25 21:42:22 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:42:22 -0500 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > I tend to suspect that "turkey" in English "Turkey bird" derives from > this eastern connection - with one exotic heathen not too carefully > distinguished from another. Eng. 'turkey' is from 'turkey-cock', about which the OED says "In the 16th c. synonymous with Guinea-cock or Guinea-fowl, an African bird known to the ancients (as meleagris), the American bird being at first identified with or treated as a species of this. The African bird is believed to have been so called as originally imported through the Turkish dominions; it was called Guinea-fowl when brought by the Portuguese from Guinea in West Africa. After the two birds were distinguished and the names differentiated, turkey was erroneously retained for the American bird, instead of the African. From the same imperfect knowledge and confusion Meleagris, the ancient name of the African fowl, was unfortunately adopted by Linn?us as the generic name of the American bird." From Rgraczyk at aol.com Thu Aug 25 21:44:11 2005 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Randolph Graczyk) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:44:11 EDT Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey Message-ID: The Crow word for turkey is daka'akiskoochiia 'bird's enemy'. I have no idea why. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu Aug 25 22:05:07 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:05:07 -0500 Subject: m's and w's and Mitasse: Caddoan phonology question Message-ID: I can add just a bit about possible areal features here. In the 1880's Dorsey transcribed one Kansa (Kaw) sound with the letter with a small written directly beneath it. This occurs as the initial phoneme of all of his 1st Sg. possessive forms with the prefix wi- 'my inalienable'. Quite evidently it had some sort of weak nasality in Dorsey's perception. By the 1970's when I re-recorded all of Dorsey's material with Mrs. Rowe and Mr. Pepper these peculiar M's with the subscript x were fully fledged W's. I have no recording of a bilabial fricative or partial nasal at all in these words. SO . . . It seems clear that Kaw initial /w/ preceding /i/ was somewhat nasalized in the late 19th century. But by the last quarter of the 20th century the nasality had totally vanished in the same vocabulary. We know that Caddoan and Dhegiha speakers were in contact (the Kaws and Osages borrow 'eight' from North Caddoan), but that's about all we (or, at least, I) know. I do think this makes David's hypothesis more reasonable however. Bob > What if, in Waco or even older Wichita, [w] and [m] had a distribution parallel to modern Wichita [r] and [n]? Do any other phonologists out there think this is at all plausible? If it is, then the name "Mittase" might have an initial phonemic /w/. Unfortunately, I can't go any further than that, because /witasi/, or /wirasi/ (many English speakers write the tapped [r] as _tt_), or other variations I can dream up still don't match with any morphemes I know that might lead to the meaning 'white baby' or 'white child'. What does anyone else think of the [m] = [w] speculation? From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Fri Aug 26 10:14:13 2005 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:14:13 +0100 Subject: m's, w's and Turkey Message-ID: Dear all: 1) Regarding m and w. one of the first records of Wichita records the word for 'moon' as in a gallicising spelling, so something like /mwa/ is intended. It just has a plain w- now, corresponding to other Northern Caddoan forms such as Arikara /pah/. Maybe Wichita /w/ > PNC *w had a separate reflex in earlier days from /w/ > PNC *w, and this is a last echo of it. And Randolph Marcy recorded the Spanish loan for 'mule' in Wichita as , representing something like /mu:ra/. Occasional b's crop up in some 19th century Wichita data too, and as far as I know (I'm doing thsi from memory) they're the equivalent of modern /w/ now. 2) Regarding /peleewa/, note the borrowing /pinwa/ 'turkey' in Creek, from a language where /l/ had become /n/ before lending the word to Creek. Mary Haas pointed this one out decades ago. Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Fri Aug 26 14:28:13 2005 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (helpdesk) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:28:13 +0100 Subject: Pemni Wichak'upi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does anyone know what the term Pemni Wichak?upi may mean. I have it from a tape on the subject of religion. It is in reference to a ceremony and I presume it is a Lakota ceremony. It just might refer to Holy Communion, but I don?t think so because that is referred to in the same context as Yutapi Wakhan Icupi. I wondered whether the pemni were ?tobacco ties?. Hope someone can help Bruce -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Fri Aug 26 14:32:31 2005 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (helpdesk) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:32:31 +0100 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: <20050825185020.60906.qmail@web53809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Incidentally in Arabic it is called Diik Ruumi ?a Roman (i.e. christian, european) chicken?. No one seems to want to be responsible for such a strange looking bird I think Bruce On 25/8/05 7:50 pm, "David Kaufman" wrote: > I always found it fascinating that the words for "turkey" are usually quite > different across Europe and even among the Latin languages themselves, e.g., > Spanish (Cast.) pavo, Italian tacchino, French dinde or dindon, Portuguese > peru'. Different Spanish-speaking countries also borrowed indigenous words > that they use in preference to the conquistador's Castilian word, as Jimm > pointed out, such as guajolote in Mexico. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rwd0002 at unt.edu Fri Aug 26 14:53:32 2005 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:53:32 -0500 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting helpdesk : > Incidentally in Arabic it is called Diik Ruumi ?a Roman (i.e. christian, > european) chicken?. No one seems to want to be responsible for such a > strange looking bird I think > Bruce > > > On 25/8/05 7:50 pm, "David Kaufman" wrote: > > > I always found it fascinating that the words for "turkey" are usually > quite > > different across Europe and even among the Latin languages themselves, > e.g., > > Spanish (Cast.) pavo, Italian tacchino, French dinde or dindon, > Portuguese > > peru'. Different Spanish-speaking countries also borrowed indigenous > words > > that they use in preference to the conquistador's Castilian word, as Jimm > > pointed out, such as guajolote in Mexico. > > Let me put in my Dutch 2 cents: in Dutch the word is kalkoen [kalkun], shortened from Kalkoense haan, which is from Kalekoetse haan, literally 'rooster of Calcutta (or maybe Calicut, another place in India). So the Dutch, like the French, thought it was originally a bird from India. Willem From rwd0002 at unt.edu Fri Aug 26 15:17:01 2005 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:17:01 -0500 Subject: Pemni Wichak'upi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting helpdesk : > Does anyone know what the term Pemni Wichak?upi may mean. I have it from a > tape on the subject of religion. It is in reference to a ceremony and I > presume it is a Lakota ceremony. It just might refer to Holy Communion, but > I don?t think so because that is referred to in the same context as Yutapi > Wakhan Icupi. I wondered whether the pemni were ?tobacco ties?. Hope > someone can help > > Bruce That does not sound like Holy Communion, or anything Catholic for that matter. Yutapi Wakhan 'Holy Food' is indeed the accepted term for Communion, at least for Lakhota Catholics. I bet Ray DeMallie or Ray Bucko would know, but I am not sure if they are on the Siouan List. Willem From mckay020 at umn.edu Fri Aug 26 17:16:50 2005 From: mckay020 at umn.edu (Cantemaza) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:16:50 -0500 Subject: Pemni Wichak'upi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: helpdesk wrote: > Does anyone know what the term Pemni Wichak'upi may mean. I have it > from a tape on the subject of religion. It is in reference to a > ceremony and I presume it is a Lakota ceremony. It just might refer to > Holy Communion, but I don't think so because that is referred to in > the same context as Yutapi Wakhan Icupi. I wondered whether the pemni > were 'tobacco ties". Hope someone can help > > Bruce I have not heard this myself but we (Bdewakantunwan Dakota hemaca do) do have a word for pie, wo'pemni s'paN. I haven't been to a ceremony yet where pie is used so I'm pretty sure that is not it he-he. Wo'pemni s'paN means the thing that's cooked round or in a circle (taspaN wo'pemni s'paN - apple pie). -Cantemaza de miye do. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Fri Aug 26 17:22:48 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 19:22:48 +0200 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey Message-ID: 'wild turkey', in Lakota is given as _wagleksun_ [wagle'ks^uN] - do you have any idea what it means? BTW, in German it's 'Truthahn' (maybe from mndd 'droten'- to threaten), earlier it was called 'indianischer Hahn' (ref. to West Indies) but also 'welscher' or 'tuerkischer Hahn'. In Romanian, it is called 'curcan' [kurka'n] and in Hungarian 'pulyka (kakas)' [puj'k? k?'k?sh]. I don't know why :( Alfred From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 17:39:17 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:39:17 -0700 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: <430F4FE8.6060304@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: While we're on the international theme, might as well add Russian "indyuk" for turkey, again apparently deriving from the word for India or Indian. Again, the Rumanian term "curcan" confirms lack of concensus on the part of the Latin-speaking peoples on a name for "turkey." Interesting. Dave "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: 'wild turkey', in Lakota is given as _wagleksun_ [wagle'ks^uN] - do you have any idea what it means? BTW, in German it's 'Truthahn' (maybe from mndd 'droten'- to threaten), earlier it was called 'indianischer Hahn' (ref. to West Indies) but also 'welscher' or 'tuerkischer Hahn'. In Romanian, it is called 'curcan' [kurka'n] and in Hungarian 'pulyka (kakas)' [puj'k? k?'k?sh]. I don't know why :( Alfred __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc Fri Aug 26 20:06:46 2005 From: Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc (Louis Garcia) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:06:46 -0500 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: <20050826173917.15284.qmail@web53801.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Waglesun (Turkey in Lakota) Wa = noun marker; Gle[s?ka] = stripe; Sun = wing feathers. _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 12:39 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: [Lexicog] Turkey While we're on the international theme, might as well add Russian "indyuk" for turkey, again apparently deriving from the word for India or Indian. Again, the Rumanian term "curcan" confirms lack of concensus on the part of the Latin-speaking peoples on a name for "turkey." Interesting. Dave "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: 'wild turkey', in Lakota is given as _wagleksun_ [wagle'ks^uN] - do you have any idea what it means? BTW, in German it's 'Truthahn' (maybe from mndd 'droten'- to threaten), earlier it was called 'indianischer Hahn' (ref. to West Indies) but also 'welscher' or 'tuerkischer Hahn'. In Romanian, it is called 'curcan' [kurka'n] and in Hungarian 'pulyka (kakas)' [puj'k? k?'k?sh]. I don't know why :( Alfred __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sat Aug 27 12:52:28 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 14:52:28 +0200 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey Message-ID: > Waglesun (Turkey in Lakota) Wa = noun marker; Gle[s?ka] = stripe; Sun = wing feathers. << Thought of this too, yet how do you get to the /k/ of [wa-gle-k-s^uN]?? > While we're on the international theme, might as well add Russian "indyuk" for turkey, again apparently deriving from the word for India or Indian.<< Maybe Kostya will englighten us - my very intuitive association with this is Hungarian 'ty?k' (chicken) -> ind+ty?k -> indyuk (???) (Hungarian has quite some slavic words incorporated that are somewhat hard to recognize as such.) > Again, the Rumanian term "curcan" confirms lack of concensus on the part of the Latin-speaking peoples on a name for "turkey." Interesting.<< Will have to look after it, but I'd guess that the word is a loan from Turkish (*kurkan?) - cf. Rum. 'tutun' from Turk. 't?t?n' (tobacco) etc. etc. Alfred From rankin at ku.edu Sat Aug 27 15:19:42 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 10:19:42 -0500 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey Message-ID: Oddly enough, the Turkish word for 'turkey' is "hindi", again suggesting that East Indian origin. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of "Alfred W. T?ting" Sent: Sat 8/27/2005 7:52 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey > Waglesun (Turkey in Lakota) Wa = noun marker; Gle[s'ka] = stripe; Sun = wing feathers. << Thought of this too, yet how do you get to the /k/ of [wa-gle-k-s^uN]?? > While we're on the international theme, might as well add Russian "indyuk" for turkey, again apparently deriving from the word for India or Indian.<< Maybe Kostya will englighten us - my very intuitive association with this is Hungarian 'ty?k' (chicken) -> ind+ty?k -> indyuk (???) (Hungarian has quite some slavic words incorporated that are somewhat hard to recognize as such.) > Again, the Rumanian term "curcan" confirms lack of concensus on the part of the Latin-speaking peoples on a name for "turkey." Interesting.<< Will have to look after it, but I'd guess that the word is a loan from Turkish (*kurkan?) - cf. Rum. 'tutun' from Turk. 't?t?n' (tobacco) etc. etc. Alfred From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 28 01:54:59 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:54:59 -0700 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: <4310620C.9000208@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: > Will have to look after it, but I'd guess that the word is a loan from Turkish (*kurkan?) - cf. Rum. 'tutun' from Turk. 't?t?n' (tobacco) etc. > Probably. It'd be interesting to know how Italian (tacchino) and Portuguese (peru/perua) got their terms, since the Latin word was meleagris gallopavo, the obvious source of the Spanish pavo. Dave "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: > Waglesun (Turkey in Lakota) Wa = noun marker; Gle[s?ka] = stripe; Sun = wing feathers. << Thought of this too, yet how do you get to the /k/ of [wa-gle-k-s^uN]?? > While we're on the international theme, might as well add Russian "indyuk" for turkey, again apparently deriving from the word for India or Indian.<< Maybe Kostya will englighten us - my very intuitive association with this is Hungarian 'ty?k' (chicken) -> ind+ty?k -> indyuk (???) (Hungarian has quite some slavic words incorporated that are somewhat hard to recognize as such.) > Again, the Rumanian term "curcan" confirms lack of concensus on the part of the Latin-speaking peoples on a name for "turkey." Interesting.<< Will have to look after it, but I'd guess that the word is a loan from Turkish (*kurkan?) - cf. Rum. 'tutun' from Turk. 't?t?n' (tobacco) etc. etc. Alfred __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 28 02:04:37 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:04:37 -0700 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: <002b01c5a98a$7536bdf0$7f640945@JIMM> Message-ID: Back to the Biloxi word for "turkey": mayoka, apparently related to maxi, chicken, + (a)yoka, swamp. "Swamp chicken"?! Does anyone have any cognates for the Biloxi word at(u)kse, meaning cover, lid, or roof of a house? This is one of those u-circumflexes that may be either atukse or atakse, but I don't seem to find any firm cognates in my limited library of Siouan dictionaries. Thanks, Dave Jimm GoodTracks wrote: I had not heard the story of the name "Turkey" being applied to the N.Am bird via Africa & the country of Turkey. I would think that a name for the N.Am bird would have been well established by the earliest N & S. Am. colonists before the birds were imported/ deported to other continents. Surely, they would not have shiped an unknown "specimens" or "species" without calling them something. After all, look at the label Columbus gave indigenous Native Americans as he came upon them and sent a captured shipment of them to Spain, i.e., "Indians", based on his false assumption that he landed in India. (No need to get into the rest of his atrocities, the naming being the least one) The Turkey, the indigenous large bird of the N & S.Am that is nonmigratory, but is considered for both a game (hunting) and poultry bird (domestically raised for eating). The domestic bird is descended from the Mexican turkey, taken to Europe by the conquistadores in the 16th century. The wild turkey is a woodlands bird, gregarious except at breeding time. It is a good flyer. The Spanish for Turkey, the bird, is: "guajalote" and "guanajo" in Cuba. Another term is "pavo". The Turkey-Cock that was mentioned above is "gallipavo". I mention this as many Spanish names of New World animals & birds were taken directly from the local indigenous languages, and thus may be a clue to the English designation. For what it is worth, the N.Am central plains indigenous Ioway (Baxoje) name for Turkey is "tagro'gro", which leads one to think it is taken directly from the sounds that the turkey make. On the otherhand, their related neighbors, the Otoe-Missouria, simply called the bird: "waying'xanje" meaning -- big bird --. The Ioway, Otoe-Missoria are indigenous to the present regions of the states of Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri and Kansas [presently, removed to NE Kansas and central Oklahoma]. They are a Siouian Family language, most closely related to the Winnebago (Hochank) of Wisconsin [presently, of Wisconsin and Nebraska]. I have no idea what the the Eastern tribes of the present U.S. may have called the woodlands bird, which also may provide some clue as to the present name "Turkey". Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Miller" To: Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 4:12 AM Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey > > Hi, > Can anyone shed any light (or feathers) on the origin of "turkey", as in > the > bird: > I read that the Guinea Fowl was originally the so-called "turkey(-cock)" > because it was imported from Africa through the country Turkey. Later, due > to confusion, the native American bird gained the name. > What confusion? It seems to be a rather "we don't actually know" > explanation. > Thanks, > Nick Miller > > --- > avast! Antivirus: Odchozi zprava cista. > Virova databaze (VPS): 0534-2, 24.08.2005 > Testovano: 25.8.2005 11:12:35 > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sun Aug 28 03:46:16 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:46:16 -0500 Subject: [Spam:0005 SpamScore] Re: [Lexicog] Turkey Message-ID: > Back to the Biloxi word for "turkey": mayoka, apparently related to maxi, chicken, + (a)yoka, swamp. "Swamp chicken"?! Yes, /ma-/ is another gamebird root that recurs with numerous such birds with various modifiers. > Does anyone have any cognates for the Biloxi word at(u)kse, meaning cover, lid, or roof of a house? This is one of those u-circumflexes that may be either atukse or atakse, but I don't seem to find any firm cognates in my limited library of Siouan dictionaries. The CSD asks essentially the same question. a- is clearly a locative. Then you have either /dak-/ from *raka- 'by striking' or you have /du-/ 'by pulling or hands'. There is apparently a Hidatsa cognate for the root, but not the prefix. The prefix is listed with U-breve in the CSD. My only advice is to look for the same root with different instrumentals so you'll know whether the boundary comes before or after the -k-. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 28 16:42:37 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 10:42:37 -0600 Subject: Roof (RE: [Lexicog] Turkey) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Aug 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > Does anyone have any cognates for the Biloxi word at(u)kse, meaning > > cover, lid, or roof of a house? This is one of those u-circumflexes > > that may be either atukse or atakse, but I don't seem to find any firm > > cognates in my limited library of Siouan dictionaries. > The CSD asks essentially the same question. a- is clearly a locative. > Then you have either /dak-/ from *raka- 'by striking' or you have /du-/ > 'by pulling or hands'. There is apparently a Hidatsa cognate for the > root, but not the prefix. The prefix is listed with U-breve in the CSD. > My only advice is to look for the same root with different instrumentals > so you'll know whether the boundary comes before or after the -k-. I suppose it must refer to somehow thatching? From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 28 16:59:15 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 10:59:15 -0600 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: <20050828015459.28305.qmail@web53807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Aug 2005, David Kaufman wrote: > Probably. It'd be interesting to know how Italian (tacchino) and > Portuguese (peru/perua) got their terms, since the Latin word was > meleagris gallopavo, the obvious source of the Spanish pavo. I think the connection there might be Latin pavo 'peacock'. The second part of the Linneaan binominal, gallopavo, would be a compound with gallus 'cock chicken'. I'm not sure, but I believe gallopavo would be a Linneaan concoction from the Latin forms. I think that Spanish pavo would be a learned term borrowed from Latin. It seems fairly clear that the connection of the turkey with the India and the East, secondarily Turkey, arises from widespread association of it with the peacock. Meleagris refers to the Meleagrides, the sisters of Meleager, "who bitterly lamented his death and were turned in birds." Peacocks have a fairly loud and harsh call, though it doesn't sound like lamentation to me! From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Aug 28 17:08:40 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 12:08:40 -0500 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > I think the connection there might be Latin pavo 'peacock'. The second > part of the Linneaan binominal, gallopavo, would be a compound with > gallus 'cock chicken'. I'm not sure, but I believe gallopavo would be a > Linneaan concoction from the Latin forms. I think that Spanish pavo would > be a learned term borrowed from Latin. Sp. pavo dates from c.1300, when it meant 'peacock'. The simplex term came to be applied to the turkey, and the peacock has since been called pavo real 'royal [true] turkey'. From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 28 18:18:19 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:18:19 -0700 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I think the connection there might be Latin pavo 'peacock'. > > the peacock has since been called pavo real 'royal [true] turkey'. > Aha. The French, Italian, Portuguese, and Rumanian cognates of pavo are paon, pavone, pava~o, and paun, respectively, all meaning "peacock." This reminds me: does anyone know of a list like this for Romance languages? Dave Koontz John E wrote: On Sat, 27 Aug 2005, David Kaufman wrote: > Probably. It'd be interesting to know how Italian (tacchino) and > Portuguese (peru/perua) got their terms, since the Latin word was > meleagris gallopavo, the obvious source of the Spanish pavo. I think the connection there might be Latin pavo 'peacock'. The second part of the Linneaan binominal, gallopavo, would be a compound with gallus 'cock chicken'. I'm not sure, but I believe gallopavo would be a Linneaan concoction from the Latin forms. I think that Spanish pavo would be a learned term borrowed from Latin. It seems fairly clear that the connection of the turkey with the India and the East, secondarily Turkey, arises from widespread association of it with the peacock. Meleagris refers to the Meleagrides, the sisters of Meleager, "who bitterly lamented his death and were turned in birds." Peacocks have a fairly loud and harsh call, though it doesn't sound like lamentation to me! --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon Aug 29 14:47:46 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 09:47:46 -0500 Subject: Turkey Message-ID: > Meleagris refers to the Meleagrides, the sisters of Meleager, "who bitterly lamented his death and were turned in birds." Peacocks have a fairly loud and harsh call, though it doesn't sound like lamentation to me! We had a pair of them wander into our farm about 7 years ago. They were all over the countryside in Leavenworth County because their owner, as it turned out, had Alzheimers and couldn't care for his flock. We sort of adopted them for about 4 months and called them "Thelma and Louise", although they turned out to be Theodore and Louis. The first time you hear them cry it's shockingly like a woman screaming. Might fit someone's definition of "lamentation". The coyotes got one of them after awhile and we got some kid from 4-H to come out and adopt the other one. We actually lured it into a cage by placing a large mirror in the back of the pen and waiting. . . . Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Aug 30 03:26:22 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:26:22 -0600 Subject: [Lexicog] Turkey In-Reply-To: <20050828181820.97730.qmail@web53807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Aug 2005, David Kaufman wrote: > Aha. The French, Italian, Portuguese, and Rumanian cognates of pavo are > paon, pavone, pava~o, and paun, respectively, all meaning "peacock." Well, probably not cognates, strictly speaking, i.e., the product of regular and parallel evolution from Vulgar Latin, but learned terms, borrowed from Classical Latin pavo/pavonis (Nom. sg., Gen sg.) into the various descendents at some later date. Historical linguistics gets complicated when the possibility of borrowing from a co-existing classical language exists, and especially when an ongoing tradition of interaction between the classical language and the daughter languages exists. Here, I think the treatment of the ending is regular - analogous with what would happen in an inherited form, but I'm not so sure about the medial /avo/ sequences, at least not in Spanish. Think of the paradigm for habeo. A somewhat similar situation exists with loans in any case. A lot of the acculturation vocabulary that Rory Larson was working with exiswts in multiple Siouan languages, ditto things like place names or ethnonyms. These often look rather like cognates, but a certain amount of outside - non-linguistic - information makes it clear thgat they can't be. Examples: 'watermelon' Santee sak[h]ayutapi, OP sakka dhide, Wi wic^aNwaNsake A very early European introduction that spread like wildfire, I believe. Regular enough in form, though this would seem to be the only OP relict of *(r)ut- 'eat', which is suspicious. 'Platte River' OP niN bdhaska, IO iN brake Perfectly regular, but probably a calque from Pawnee kickatus 'water flat'. 'Ioway' OP maxude, IO baxoj^e, Os baxoce, ppaxoce The second Osage version is irregular. Similar things happen with terms that sem like they ought to be native, e.g., 'tobacco' Dakota c^haNli, OP niNniN, Wi taaniN Tantalizingly similar, but not a regular correspondence. In fact, no two Siouan branches seem to agree.