From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Feb 1 18:08:31 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 19:08:31 +0100 Subject: Non-Dakotan Siouan speech online Message-ID: "(Constantine:) Hello everybody. I wonder are there speech samples of Non-Dakotan Siouan languages online" Hi Kostya, all I can recall is a site (of the Kaw nation) with a small list of phrases etc. in Kansa with one sound file added to listen to it. http://www.niwic.net/hello-oklahoma/kanza.htm (I guess, Prof. Rankin and/or Justin McBride are able to give you further feedback on this.) Best regards na toksa ake Alfred -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From parksd at indiana.edu Tue Feb 1 19:07:14 2005 From: parksd at indiana.edu (Parks, Douglas R.) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:07:14 -0500 Subject: Finally -- the Quapaw sketch. Message-ID: Bob, I have finally had a chance to see why there was a problem with the portrayal of the vowels in your Quapaw sketch. In the proofs that you were sent, they appear just as they do in the printed piece. In your proofing you did not indicate that the alignments were incorrect. The author is responsible for proofing and catching mistakes like these, and had you caught them take at that stage, they would have been corrected. Best -- Doug __________________________________________________ Douglas R. Parks Professor of Anthropology Associate Director, American Indian Studies Research Institute Indiana University 422 North Indiana Avenue Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone 812.855.4123 Fax 812.855.7529 || E-mail parksd at indiana.edu || AISRI web site http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of R. Rankin Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 6:24 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Finally -- the Quapaw sketch. I received my freebie copies of _Native Languages of the Southeastern United States_ from the Nebraska Press in the mail today and was relieved to see that they did a pretty fair job of reproducing my Quapaw grammar sketch manuscript. Thus far the only errors I've caught are in the listing of the vowel inventory. The problem there seems to be due to the fact that Microsoft Word appears to randomly destroy horizontal tabular formatting when identical files with identical templates are displayed on two different computers (I'm sure most of you have experience with THAT.) So the Quapaw oral vowel "triangle" came out as a vowel "diamond" when they set the type. It should be: i e o a . . . but it came out as: i e o a Likewise the nasal vowels lost tabular formatting. They should display as: iN oN aN . . . but they emerged as a vertical column: iN oN aN So if anyone buys or checks out this volume, you might want to make those minor corrections. At least the sketch is finally out, and a lot is now in print that I've wanted to get out for over 10 years. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Tue Feb 1 19:51:14 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:51:14 -0600 Subject: Finally -- the Quapaw sketch. Message-ID: Don't worry, it's not a big problem. I'm not a great proofer and I knew they were correct in what I sent in. The problem lies with the tendency of Microsoft Word not to produce comparable output of identical files (especially tabs) on two different machines. It's just too bad that, with all the time that's passed, I couldn't have made it "perfect". The volume, along with the Osage Grammar, look quite nice and I'm glad to see both in print. Cheers, Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Parks, Douglas R. Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 1:07 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Finally -- the Quapaw sketch. Bob, I have finally had a chance to see why there was a problem with the portrayal of the vowels in your Quapaw sketch. In the proofs that you were sent, they appear just as they do in the printed piece. In your proofing you did not indicate that the alignments were incorrect. The author is responsible for proofing and catching mistakes like these, and had you caught them take at that stage, they would have been corrected. Best -- Doug __________________________________________________ Douglas R. Parks Professor of Anthropology Associate Director, American Indian Studies Research Institute Indiana University 422 North Indiana Avenue Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone 812.855.4123 Fax 812.855.7529 || E-mail parksd at indiana.edu || AISRI web site http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of R. Rankin Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 6:24 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Finally -- the Quapaw sketch. I received my freebie copies of _Native Languages of the Southeastern United States_ from the Nebraska Press in the mail today and was relieved to see that they did a pretty fair job of reproducing my Quapaw grammar sketch manuscript. Thus far the only errors I've caught are in the listing of the vowel inventory. The problem there seems to be due to the fact that Microsoft Word appears to randomly destroy horizontal tabular formatting when identical files with identical templates are displayed on two different computers (I'm sure most of you have experience with THAT.) So the Quapaw oral vowel "triangle" came out as a vowel "diamond" when they set the type. It should be: i e o a . . . but it came out as: i e o a Likewise the nasal vowels lost tabular formatting. They should display as: iN oN aN . . . but they emerged as a vertical column: iN oN aN So if anyone buys or checks out this volume, you might want to make those minor corrections. At least the sketch is finally out, and a lot is now in print that I've wanted to get out for over 10 years. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Tue Feb 1 20:06:15 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:06:15 -0600 Subject: Congratulations! Message-ID: . . . To Carolyn Quintero on the Osage Grammar, which just appeared from the Univ. of Nebraska Press!! Bob From rankin at ku.edu Tue Feb 1 20:10:00 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:10:00 -0600 Subject: Non-Dakotan Siouan speech online Message-ID: Dear Friends, I have not yet checked the Kaw Nation language program website, but if the voice is a woman's, then it is Mrs. Maude Rowe, one of the last fluent speakers of Kaw and the person with whom I did the vast majority of my recording in the mid 1970s. If the recording is of a man speaking, I'm afraid it is probably me. Sooner or later there will be recorded material from speakers on the website. Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of "Alfred W. Tüting" Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 12:09 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Non-Dakotan Siouan speech online "(Constantine:) Hello everybody. I wonder are there speech samples of Non-Dakotan Siouan languages online" Hi Kostya, all I can recall is a site (of the Kaw nation) with a small list of phrases etc. in Kansa with one sound file added to listen to it. http://www.niwic.net/hello-oklahoma/kanza.htm (I guess, Prof. Rankin and/or Justin McBride are able to give you further feedback on this.) Best regards na toksa ake Alfred -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Feb 1 20:14:20 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:14:20 -0600 Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan Message-ID: I received this from this scholar in the Netherlands. I haven't replied to it yet, but I'm sure he would be overjoyed to hear from any of you who can help him. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Leon Stassen [mailto:l.stassen at let.ru.nl] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 7:51 PM To: Rankin, Robert L Subject: possessive constructions in siouan Dear Professor Rankin, You probably do not know who I am, so allow me to introduce myself: my name is Leon Stassen, and I am a language typologist working at the universities of Nijmegen and Utrecht in the Netherlands. I have gotten your name and e-mail address from Marianne Mithun (UCSB), who recommended you as a leading specialist on Siouan. I wonder if I could ask you some information on these languages? Such information would be most welcome for the project on which I am currently working. My project concerns the expression of (alienable) predicative possession in the languages of the world. To put it rather bluntly, I am interested in the various ways in which a sentence of the type The man has a house/car/ horse (or whatever things one may alienably possess in the society at issue) is formally encoded. As is already known in the literature (e.g. Heine 1998), there are a number of frequently recurring patterns for such sentences, such as a) the Have pattern, featuring a transitive verb, with the possessor as the subject and the possessed item as the direct object; English is of course an example; b) the Locative Possessive, of the type To/at/near the man, a/his horse is/exists c) the Topic-possessive, of the type The man, a/his horse exists d) the With-Possessive, of the type The man exists/is with a/his horse but I have found that these are by no means the only ways of predicative possession encoding. In fact, what I have seen of Siouan languages so far would not seem to fit straightforwardly into one of these types. If I am right in interpreting the data so far (but I would appreciate it very much if you would correct me) , a sentence like 'I have a dog' would, in at least some of the Siouan languages such as Lakota and Crow, have the rough form of something like dog 1SG.PATIENT-exist but, of course, I can't be sure about this, and in any event, I have a serious shortage of data. It would be very helpful if you could provide me with a sample sentence from one or more of these languages; and, if it is not too much trouble, perhaps you might be so kind as to gloss it? Another thing that is problematic for me is the fact that, in some grammars of Siouan languages, a verb is featured which is constantly glossed as a transitve 'have'- item; the Lakota verb 'yuka' and the Biloxi verb ''ita' are cases in point. Now, as far as my sample goes, North America is not really a place to have original transitive HAVE-verbs; in fact, Lakota and Biloxi would stand alone on the continent if they had this feature. Therefore my question is: is it possible that these 'have'-items are in fact the products of reanalysis from an erstwhile positional verb such as 'to stand, to lie' etc. ? This, then, would put these languages on a par with a development that can be documented for Algonquian, where a positional verb 'aya' (which means 'to be' in Ojibwa and other Algonquian languages) has been 'transitivized' into a 'have'-verb in Plains Cree. I am fully aware that you, as a specialist, must receive quite a few of requests such as these, and that, moreover, you have more pressing things to do than to answer all of these queries. Nonetheless, I would be most grateful if you could find the time for an answer. Best regards, Leon Stassen. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 20:27:56 2005 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:27:56 -0800 Subject: World Languages Message-ID: Howdy, I recently found a site that I thought some of you on the list may find interesting. http://www.worldlanguage.com/Languages/List/O.htm WorldLanguage.com promotes itself as "The Ultimate Language Store" with products (in the categories shown below) in over hundreds of languages, including many Siouan languages: Computers / NotebooksDictionaryESL-English as Second LanguageGamesGift Items!Handheld DictionaryKaraokeKeyboard StickersKeyboardsKidsLearnMicrosoft OfficeMicrosoft WindowsMovies/VideosSoftware - MacSoftware - WindowsSpell CheckingTranslationMore... The site is run by: World Language Resources 2130 Sawtelle Blvd. Suite 304A Los Angeles, CA 90025 Tel: 310-996-2300 Fax: 310-996-2303 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 20:43:47 2005 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:43:47 -0800 Subject: Non-Dakotan Siouan speech online In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D01233BE1@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Are you aware of this Library of Congress Website?: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/omhhtml/omhhome.html At this site you will find: Omaha Indian Music features traditional Omaha music from the 1890s and 1980s. The multiformat ethnographic field collection contains 44 wax cylinder recordings collected by Francis La Flesche and Alice Cunningham Fletcher between 1895 and 1897, 323 songs and speeches from the 1983 Omaha harvest celebration pow-wow, and 25 songs and speeches from the 1985 Hethu'shka Society concert at the Library of Congress. Segments from interviews with members of the Omaha tribe conducted in 1983 and 1999 provide contextual information for the songs and speeches included in the collection. Supplementing the collection are black-and-white and color photographs taken during the 1983 pow-wow and the 1985 concert, as well as research materials that include fieldnotes and tape logs pertaining to the pow-wow. This presentation is made possible by the generous support of The Texaco Foundation. In addition, there is a link related Omaha/Ponca "Spoken Word" links at: http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/S?ammem/omhbib:@field(NUMBER(@range(s0001+s0999))) Good Luck, Jonathan "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: Dear Friends, I have not yet checked the Kaw Nation language program website, but if the voice is a woman's, then it is Mrs. Maude Rowe, one of the last fluent speakers of Kaw and the person with whom I did the vast majority of my recording in the mid 1970s. If the recording is of a man speaking, I'm afraid it is probably me. Sooner or later there will be recorded material from speakers on the website. Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of "Alfred W. T�ting" Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 12:09 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Non-Dakotan Siouan speech online "(Constantine:) Hello everybody. I wonder are there speech samples of Non-Dakotan Siouan languages online" Hi Kostya, all I can recall is a site (of the Kaw nation) with a small list of phrases etc. in Kansa with one sound file added to listen to it. http://www.niwic.net/hello-oklahoma/kanza.htm (I guess, Prof. Rankin and/or Justin McBride are able to give you further feedback on this.) Best regards na toksa ake Alfred --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! � Try it today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmcbride at kawnation.com Tue Feb 1 21:33:04 2005 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:33:04 -0600 Subject: Non-Dakotan Siouan speech online Message-ID: Message----- Original Message ----- From: Rankin, Robert L > I have not yet checked the Kaw Nation language program website, > but if the voice is a woman's, then it is Mrs. Maude Rowe, one of the > last fluent speakers of Kaw and the person with whom I did the vast > majority of my recording in the mid 1970s. If the recording is of a > man speaking, I'm afraid it is probably me. Sooner or later there will > be recorded material from speakers on the website. Oh, it's far worse than that, I'm afraid. It's me! The former Kanza Language Teacher and I made this series of recordings as part of a langauge class for adults from a few years back. I recorded about half and the Language Teacher did the most of the others. A few recordings may have even come from one or more of the students. At that time we were working on several simultaneous projects using the same list of about 800 words, so we just decided to attach the recordings to the word list text and post the whole thing online. It didn't work out nearly as well as I'd hoped. But maybe that's okay, as it's not the greatest quality product to begin with. We used a pair of upturned headphones instead of a microphone, and recorded very long sections of text without breaking. In some of the recordings there's probably much more noisy breathing than intelligible speeech. And with numerous errors in the text and a couple of missing sound files, all I can say is that it was never intended to be the final product. But, like so many things, it just got placed on the backburner. NEVER FEAR... as Dr. Rankin said, we are planning a full-scale revision of the tribe's language website. When it's all done (give us a coupla years on this one), it will be a fantastic Siouan resource, combining a vast amount of native speaker material with full-function web accesibility... or so we hope! We'll keep you posted. Justin McBride Language Coordinator & Acting Webdesigner Kaw Nation of Oklahoma Drawer 50 Kaw City, OK 74641 PH (580) 269-2552 ext 241 FX (580) 269-2204 attn Language/Web Dev jmcbride at kawnation.com http://www.kawnation.com/langhome.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 23:29:47 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:29:47 -0800 Subject: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi Message-ID: Hi all, Bob, John K, and I have been having some discussion re: Biloxi pronunciation and Dorsey's and Swanton's diacritic marks. One of these involves their use of u-circumflex, which Dorsey and Swanton describe as "u in but," which sounds like the schwa to me. I'm particularly wondering about its use in the word su(circumflex)pi, meaning "black," which according to this, should be pronounced something like "suppy". This would mean, I think, that perhaps in Biloxi a schwa could be stressed. I think Bob mentions Ofo having a similar stressed schwa sound. Do any other Siouan languages have this schwa sound in stressed syllables? Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Feb 2 00:32:39 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 18:32:39 -0600 Subject: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi In-Reply-To: <20050201232947.50275.qmail@web53810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: David Kaufman wrote: > Bob, John K, and I have been having some discussion re: Biloxi > pronunciation and Dorsey's and Swanton's diacritic marks. One of these > involves their use of *u-circumflex*, which Dorsey and Swanton describe > as "/u/ in b/u/t," which sounds like the schwa to me. I'm particularly > wondering about its use in the word *su(circumflex)pi*, meaning "black," > which according to this, should be pronounced something like "suppy". > This would mean, I think, that perhaps in Biloxi a schwa could > be stressed. I think Bob mentions Ofo having a similar stressed schwa > sound. Do any other Siouan languages have this schwa sound in stressed > syllables? American English dictionaries often use the schwa symbol in both unstressed and stressed positions, as in 'above'. Phonemically these may be the same, but phonetically they differ, the second one (reversed capital V in IPA) being, lower and backer than the first and probably like u-circumflex. (The word 'schwa' in English can mean both 1.) a vowel, like the in 'above', and 2.) the symbol, which can represent in different systems a.) only the schwa-sound, or b.) the schwa-sound and the revV-sound.) Alan From mary.marino at usask.ca Tue Feb 1 23:09:34 2005 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:09:34 -0600 Subject: Dakota Dialects Message-ID: Hello Doug, Thanks, this is helpful. Mary At 04:43 PM 1/27/2005, you wrote: >John and Mary, > >Allow me to clarify several points that have been under discussion. > >(1) The Yanktonai, like the Yanktons, identify themselves in English as >"Dakotas." There is no historical evidence that the Yanktonai ever >identified themselves as nakhota, and I have never heard a contemporary >speaker (and here I mean on all the five reservations where the >subdialects are spoken) self-identify using an n. Cook in 1880-82 >similarly recorded the term with an initial d. The history of the >fallacy that Yanktonais referred to themselves with an n is given in >DeMallie's and my paper, pp. 242-48. James Howard is the 20th century >promoter of the use of the n form, and his assertions have been accepted >by many, particularly younger people who like the "neat" classification >that it provides. > >(2) There actually has been a fair amount of work accomplished on >Yanktonai, although unpublished. Based on work with speakers from >Standing Rock and Devil's Lake, but including the other communities, >I've compiled a reasonably extensive dictionary database, and Ray has >recorded and transcribed a modest collection of texts. (See HNAI >13(1):98.) > >(3) For the Ochethi Shakowin, see DeMallie (HNAI 13(2):735-48). > >Doug > >__________________________________________________ > >Douglas R. Parks >Professor of Anthropology From Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc Wed Feb 2 15:01:02 2005 From: Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc (Louis Garcia) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:01:02 -0600 Subject: Dakota Dialects In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050201170741.01de1b68@sask.usask.ca> Message-ID: Members: Please allow me to put my two cents in on this subject. I live here on the Spirit Lake Dakota Reservation (formerly called Devils Lake). I have been here about 38 years. When I called the residents Santee they bit my head off. They were Sisseton - Wahpeton and Yanktonai. Later I discovered the political split. Santee treaty of 1851, and the Sisseton - Wahpeton treaty of 1851 (Traverse des Sioux). Two separate treaties. I think where Jim Howard got the Nakota idea is that the speakers here use "Na" on the ends of their words instead of the expected "Dan". The speakers further explained that the "na" ending does not always mean a something small. I use the term "familiarity" as I am not a linguist. Example: Sungtokcana (wolf) meaning you know that wolf that has been hanging around. I am not talking about a new wolf. Toksta ake, Louie From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Wed Feb 2 15:42:35 2005 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:42:35 -0600 Subject: Congratulations! Message-ID: Thanks, Bob. I didn't know it was out! Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" Sent: Feb 1, 2005 2:06 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Congratulations! . . . To Carolyn Quintero on the Osage Grammar, which just appeared from the Univ. of Nebraska Press!! Bob From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 2 19:16:40 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 11:16:40 -0800 Subject: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi In-Reply-To: <42001FA7.7000805@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for this insight, Alan. Another interesting Dorsey symbol for Biloxi represents something like d followed by a voiced th sound (like th in this). Is this another sound common to Siouan? I don't believe these pronunciation matters were adequately addressed in Einaudi's Biloxi dissertation, and I'm wondering if some of these "finer" sound distinctions apparently happened upon by Dorsey warrant some more review. I will probably have to do some extensive cross-linguistic comparisons with other Siouan languages to narrow this down, at least in particular words. I'm becoming more convinced however, since Dorsey did specifically mention the pronunciation of u circumflex as u in but, that this schwa-like (upside-down V) sound existed, and perhaps s[u-circumflex]pi (black) and pst(u circumflex)ki (sew) should both be pronounced something more like [suppy] and [pstucky], with perhaps a new character to represent this, rather than /supi/ and /pstuki/ as they appear in the dissertation. Unless this sounds totally un-Siouan!? Dave "Alan H. Hartley" wrote: David Kaufman wrote: > Bob, John K, and I have been having some discussion re: Biloxi > pronunciation and Dorsey's and Swanton's diacritic marks. One of these > involves their use of *u-circumflex*, which Dorsey and Swanton describe > as "/u/ in b/u/t," which sounds like the schwa to me. I'm particularly > wondering about its use in the word *su(circumflex)pi*, meaning "black," > which according to this, should be pronounced something like "suppy". > This would mean, I think, that perhaps in Biloxi a schwa could > be stressed. I think Bob mentions Ofo having a similar stressed schwa > sound. Do any other Siouan languages have this schwa sound in stressed > syllables? American English dictionaries often use the schwa symbol in both unstressed and stressed positions, as in 'above'. Phonemically these may be the same, but phonetically they differ, the second one (reversed capital V in IPA) being, lower and backer than the first and probably like u-circumflex. (The word 'schwa' in English can mean both 1.) a vowel, like the in 'above', and 2.) the symbol, which can represent in different systems a.) only the schwa-sound, or b.) the schwa-sound and the revV-sound.) Alan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Feb 2 19:24:14 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:24:14 -0600 Subject: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi Message-ID: The only thing I can add to what I said before is that, in Ofo, all the instances of stressed schwa that I can locate are reflexes of denasalized /aN/. Schwa can come from both nasal and oral /a/ unaccented, but AFAIK only from stressed nasal A. (The way I know it's a denasalized aN is by comparing it with cognates in Biloxi, Tutelo or some more distant Siouan language with a cognate lexeme). The term for 'black' can come from either of two different etyma. *(i)sa:pe or *(i)sepi. I would think the former would underlie the Biloxi word, but can't say for sure. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Kaufman" To: "Siouan List" Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 5:29 PM Subject: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi > Hi all, > > Bob, John K, and I have been having some discussion > re: Biloxi pronunciation and Dorsey's and Swanton's > diacritic marks. One of these involves their use of > u-circumflex, which Dorsey and Swanton describe as "u > in but," which sounds like the schwa to me. I'm > particularly wondering about its use in the word > su(circumflex)pi, meaning "black," which according to > this, should be pronounced something like "suppy". > This would mean, I think, that perhaps in Biloxi a > schwa could be stressed. I think Bob mentions Ofo > having a similar stressed schwa sound. Do any other > Siouan languages have this schwa sound in stressed > syllables? > > Dave > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com From rankin at ku.edu Wed Feb 2 19:34:59 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:34:59 -0600 Subject: Dorsey Ddh in Biloxi Message-ID: He only writes ddh occasionally in Biloxi, but he writes it all the time in Quapaw for the local reflex of Proto-Siouan /r/. What I heard for this in the 1970's was just a lamino-dental voiced stop. I write it simply as /d/. I've never heard an actual fricative offglide. Bob ----- Original Message ----- > Another interesting Dorsey symbol for Biloxi > represents something like d followed by a voiced th > sound (like th in this). Is this another sound > common to Siouan? From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 2 20:58:13 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:58:13 -0800 Subject: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi In-Reply-To: <003a01c5095c$c9127b40$28b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Bob, I guess a lot of my confusion is just from a lack of overall Siouan knowledge at this point, but just to make sure I've got this straight: you're saying that a stressed schwa can only come about from a previously nasalized stressed A. And I suppose there's no reason to suspect that the underlying Siouan sa:pe or sepi (a or e) would have become nasalized in Biloxi, then denasalized again to a stressed schwa. Interesting. What a puzzle! Thanks for the comments on the ddh as well. Sounds like /d/ is appropriate here. Dave "R. Rankin" wrote: The only thing I can add to what I said before is that, in Ofo, all the instances of stressed schwa that I can locate are reflexes of denasalized /aN/. Schwa can come from both nasal and oral /a/ unaccented, but AFAIK only from stressed nasal A. (The way I know it's a denasalized aN is by comparing it with cognates in Biloxi, Tutelo or some more distant Siouan language with a cognate lexeme). The term for 'black' can come from either of two different etyma. *(i)sa:pe or *(i)sepi. I would think the former would underlie the Biloxi word, but can't say for sure. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Kaufman" To: "Siouan List" Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 5:29 PM Subject: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi > Hi all, > > Bob, John K, and I have been having some discussion > re: Biloxi pronunciation and Dorsey's and Swanton's > diacritic marks. One of these involves their use of > u-circumflex, which Dorsey and Swanton describe as "u > in but," which sounds like the schwa to me. I'm > particularly wondering about its use in the word > su(circumflex)pi, meaning "black," which according to > this, should be pronounced something like "suppy". > This would mean, I think, that perhaps in Biloxi a > schwa could be stressed. I think Bob mentions Ofo > having a similar stressed schwa sound. Do any other > Siouan languages have this schwa sound in stressed > syllables? > > Dave > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 2 22:13:46 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 15:13:46 -0700 Subject: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi In-Reply-To: <20050202205813.67766.qmail@web53810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, David Kaufman wrote: > I guess a lot of my confusion is just from a lack of overall Siouan > knowledge at this point, but just to make sure I've got this straight: > you're saying that a stressed schwa can only come about from a > previously nasalized stressed A. To be precise - and I apologize if David just omitted this for simplicity in his restatement - Bob actually said that in Ofo (as opposed to Siouan in general or Biloxi) he has observed unaccented schwa representing what comparison suggests is an unaccented /a/ or unaccented /aN/, and accented schwa representing accented /aN/. However, I suspect Bob meant this an encouragement to interpret schwa, accented or not, as a or aN, if other evidence supported it, or, more simply as a, with nasalization determined from other evidence. I mentioned that I have heard unaccented final schwa representing unaccented aN in Omaha and seen the corresponding words spelled occasionally in various contexts with final a (not a + raised n), e.g. /umaNhaN/ as [umaNh], egaN as [eg] or [ig], gdhebaN as [gdheb], and so on. In a family with vowel systems that typically amount to aeiou aNiNuN or aeiu aNiN (or aNiNoN?) neglecting length it's reasonable to suspect a schwa in "preliminary transcription" might represent a or aN, accented or not. Dorsey and Swanton worked in innocence of any formal phonemic concept and probably had no real concept of contextual variation either. In their approach the height of linguistic rigor was a narrow phonetic trancription. Dorsey uses a broad phonetic transcription for most purposes, and notes unusual contextual variants more narrowly. Some sorts of phonetic detail clearly attract his attention more than others. He does a lot more specification of phonetic detail in Biloxi, it seems to me, than elsewhere, perhaps because it was unfamiliar. Or maybe I'm just more familiar with the key than the data in this case! A broad phonetic transcriptions might in some cases amount to a phonemic transcription, but not always. It depends on what guides the instincts in broadening - merging - things and on how far one goes. The mapping of vowel phonemes and their allophones to phonetic vowels can sometimes be surprising. Check out Marshallese - an example I noticed recently. > And I suppose there's no reason to suspect that the underlying Siouan > sa:pe or sepi (a or e) would have become nasalized in Biloxi, then > denasalized again to a stressed schwa. Interesting. What a puzzle! Nope on the process in my judgement. I expect it's just *sapi written spi. Siouan nasal vowels are often apparently denasalized in certain contexts (e.g., after a nasal sonorant or finally or initially). I've heard it asserted that some speakers nasalize or denasalize more than others. Speakers may denasalize sporadically, perhaps more often in certain contexts, perhaps more often in certain words. Thus one utterance of a word might seem to differ from another utterance at another time by the same speaker. Denasalization may affect only vowels or also nasal sonorants. Nasalization is essentially a supersegmental quantity in most Siouan languages and can spread across certain consonants (sonorants, semi-vowels, laryngeals, etc.). Some languages display regular variations in nasality of vowels or sonorants determined by morphological processes that result in adding or removing sources of nasality or barriers to its spreading. Nasalization may "occur" scrunched up at one end of a sequence over which it can spread. One could account for /umaNhaN/ as [umaNh] in those terms, too. Nasalization sometimes simply lands off the target vowel, even on an adjacent vowel across a theoretically "impermeable" consonant, e.g., I've heard an Omaha speaker say [iNga] (or maybe [iNg] in fast speech for [egaN]. From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 2 22:33:55 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 14:33:55 -0800 Subject: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks John, this is great! After giving it more thought, I still want to do a cross-linguistic comparison of other Siouan language words that correspond to Dorsey's Biloxi [u circumflex] words. But it's beginning to look more reasonable that [u circumflex] should just be /a/. At least I may use that for my working hypothesis right now, anyway. There's not that much difference really between /schwa/ and /a/, and it's reasonable to expect that Dorsey may have thought he heard /schwa/ when he really just heard /a/. This would mean of course that Einaudi's /supi/ would become, per this theory, /sapi/ and pstuki /pstaki/. Dave Koontz John E wrote: On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, David Kaufman wrote: > I guess a lot of my confusion is just from a lack of overall Siouan > knowledge at this point, but just to make sure I've got this straight: > you're saying that a stressed schwa can only come about from a > previously nasalized stressed A. To be precise - and I apologize if David just omitted this for simplicity in his restatement - Bob actually said that in Ofo (as opposed to Siouan in general or Biloxi) he has observed unaccented schwa representing what comparison suggests is an unaccented /a/ or unaccented /aN/, and accented schwa representing accented /aN/. However, I suspect Bob meant this an encouragement to interpret schwa, accented or not, as a or aN, if other evidence supported it, or, more simply as a, with nasalization determined from other evidence. I mentioned that I have heard unaccented final schwa representing unaccented aN in Omaha and seen the corresponding words spelled occasionally in various contexts with final a (not a + raised n), e.g. /umaNhaN/ as [umaNh], egaN as [eg] or [ig], gdhebaN as [gdheb], and so on. In a family with vowel systems that typically amount to aeiou aNiNuN or aeiu aNiN (or aNiNoN?) neglecting length it's reasonable to suspect a schwa in "preliminary transcription" might represent a or aN, accented or not. Dorsey and Swanton worked in innocence of any formal phonemic concept and probably had no real concept of contextual variation either. In their approach the height of linguistic rigor was a narrow phonetic trancription. Dorsey uses a broad phonetic transcription for most purposes, and notes unusual contextual variants more narrowly. Some sorts of phonetic detail clearly attract his attention more than others. He does a lot more specification of phonetic detail in Biloxi, it seems to me, than elsewhere, perhaps because it was unfamiliar. Or maybe I'm just more familiar with the key than the data in this case! A broad phonetic transcriptions might in some cases amount to a phonemic transcription, but not always. It depends on what guides the instincts in broadening - merging - things and on how far one goes. The mapping of vowel phonemes and their allophones to phonetic vowels can sometimes be surprising. Check out Marshallese - an example I noticed recently. > And I suppose there's no reason to suspect that the underlying Siouan > sa:pe or sepi (a or e) would have become nasalized in Biloxi, then > denasalized again to a stressed schwa. Interesting. What a puzzle! Nope on the process in my judgement. I expect it's just *sapi written spi. Siouan nasal vowels are often apparently denasalized in certain contexts (e.g., after a nasal sonorant or finally or initially). I've heard it asserted that some speakers nasalize or denasalize more than others. Speakers may denasalize sporadically, perhaps more often in certain contexts, perhaps more often in certain words. Thus one utterance of a word might seem to differ from another utterance at another time by the same speaker. Denasalization may affect only vowels or also nasal sonorants. Nasalization is essentially a supersegmental quantity in most Siouan languages and can spread across certain consonants (sonorants, semi-vowels, laryngeals, etc.). Some languages display regular variations in nasality of vowels or sonorants determined by morphological processes that result in adding or removing sources of nasality or barriers to its spreading. Nasalization may "occur" scrunched up at one end of a sequence over which it can spread. One could account for /umaNhaN/ as [umaNh] in those terms, too. Nasalization sometimes simply lands off the target vowel, even on an adjacent vowel across a theoretically "impermeable" consonant, e.g., I've heard an Omaha speaker say [iNga] (or maybe [iNg] in fast speech for [egaN]. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Feb 3 02:20:17 2005 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 20:20:17 -0600 Subject: Emigrant Algonquian words for 'dime'? In-Reply-To: <20050202223355.36587.qmail@web53803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have a question for anyone who does "emigrant" (->Kansas->Oklahoma) Indian languages, especially Sauk-Fox, Kickapoo, Delaware, Wyandot or Shawnee: What is their term for 'dime'? My motivation is trying to figure out when and how the term came into Omaha. The Omaha term is s^uga'z^iNga, which parses as "thick-little", or "little thick" if Omaha word order is respected. Until recently, I thought this formulation occurred only in OP, and I supposed that it came in in the early 19th century any time after Lewis and Clark. Recently I had the privilege of examining a copy of Jimm Good Tracks' 1992 dictionary of Iowa-Otoe-Missouria, and found that the term existed there too. Since the construction is so improbable, I concluded that it probably came in during the Omahas' Bellevue period, from 1846-1856, when they were camped in close proximity to the Otos near the city that bears their name. This was the period of the great wagon trains rolling west right by where they were camped, the first missions, and early tourists on steamboats with the Bellevue trading post as an important way station. It was during this time that one might expect them to have become familiar with American monetary terms. Now I've had a chance to look at the wonderful Kaw language site, put up, I understand, by Justin with support from Bob, which Alfred kindly pointed out to us. Apparently Kaw also has the same "thick-little" formulation as Omaha and Iowa-Otoe-Missouria. The Kaw, however, were not located at Bellevue at this time. Instead, in 1846, they signed a treaty relinquishing most of their lands and moved to a reservation starting somewhere west of Topeka. Various eastern Indian tribes were moved into reservations along the eastern side of Kansas. Between the Kaw and Bellevue were reservations for Sauks and Foxes, Kickapoos, Delawares and Wyandots, with Shawnees just to the southeast. Now this forces me to revise my theory again. If this odd term for 'dime' was coined in the Bellevue period, then it must have been common, not only for the Omahas, Otos, Missourias, Iowas and Kaws, but probably for all the displaced Indian groups on the reservations between them as well. But if these other groups did not use any sort of "thick-little" term for 'dime', then the term must have been established among Missouri Siouan tribes from northeastern Kansas to northeastern Nebraska prior to 1846. (Osage and the Dakotan languages do not have this formulation so far as I know.) Pawnee, of course, would also be of interest. Thanks, Rory From rankin at ku.edu Thu Feb 3 17:03:03 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:03:03 -0600 Subject: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi Message-ID: Well, I think the generalization is that accented schwa would generally come from nasal A. That doesn't mean there aren't exceptions though. No telling just what Dorsey heard. Did Haas and Swadesh record any accented schwas? Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 2:58 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi Bob, I guess a lot of my confusion is just from a lack of overall Siouan knowledge at this point, but just to make sure I've got this straight: you're saying that a stressed schwa can only come about from a previously nasalized stressed A. And I suppose there's no reason to suspect that the underlying Siouan sa:pe or sepi (a or e) would have become nasalized in Biloxi, then denasalized again to a stressed schwa. Interesting. What a puzzle! Thanks for the comments on the ddh as well. Sounds like /d/ is appropriate here. Dave "R. Rankin" wrote: The only thing I can add to what I said before is that, in Ofo, all the instances of stressed schwa that I can locate are reflexes of denasalized /aN/. Schwa can come from both nasal and oral /a/ unaccented, but AFAIK only from stressed nasal A. (The way I know it's a denasalized aN is by comparing it with cognates in Biloxi, Tutelo or some more distant Siouan language with a cognate lexeme). The term for 'black' can come from either of two different etyma. *(i)sa:pe or *(i)sepi. I would think the former would underlie the Biloxi word, but can't say for sure. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Kaufman" To: "Siouan List" Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 5:29 PM Subject: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi > Hi all, > >! Bob, John K, and I have been having some discussion > re: Biloxi pronunciation and Dorsey's and Swanton's > diacritic marks. One of these involves their use of > u-circumflex, which Dorsey and Swanton describe as "u > in but," which sounds like the schwa to me. I'm > particularly wondering about its use in the word > su(circumflex)pi, meaning "black," which according to > this, should be pronounced something like "suppy". > This would mean, I think, that perhaps in Biloxi a > schwa could be stressed. I think Bob mentions Ofo > having a similar stressed schwa sound. Do any other > Siouan languages have this schwa sound in stressed > syllables? > > Dave > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu Feb 3 17:09:06 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:09:06 -0600 Subject: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi Message-ID: It occurs to me that it might be good to look at original field notes on Biloxi. Gatschet (who was not the world's greatest phonetician) did some Biloxi before Dorsey did and JOD incorporated his notes supposedly. It might be interesting to see what Gatschet wrote for 'black' in BI. Bob -----Original Message----- > Nope on the process in my judgement. I expect it's just *sapi written spi. From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 3 17:51:25 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 09:51:25 -0800 Subject: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D01233BE5@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I don't believe Haas recorded any stressed schwas in her article. Although she did record length, another challenge on the Biloxi horizon. -- It occurs to me that it might be good to look at original field notes on Biloxi. -- Yes, I thought of this too. I hope that in the not too distant future, finances and time permitting, perhaps I can make a trip to the Smithsonian and see all the original field notes for Biloxi. Gatschet also seemed to have some interesting notes, according to Einaudi, such as representing Dorsey's k-dot as g. It would definitely be nice to have copies of all that. Who knows what tidbits lurk in the details! Dave "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: It occurs to me that it might be good to look at original field notes on Biloxi. Gatschet (who was not the world's greatest phonetician) did some Biloxi before Dorsey did and JOD incorporated his notes supposedly. It might be interesting to see what Gatschet wrote for 'black' in BI. Bob -----Original Message----- > Nope on the process in my judgement. I expect it's just *sapi written spi. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstelfer at ucalgary.ca Thu Feb 3 23:40:14 2005 From: cstelfer at ucalgary.ca (cstelfer at ucalgary.ca) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 16:40:14 -0700 Subject: Siouan root constraints In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D01233BE5@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Hey out there, I was wondering if anybody has ever taken a look at the root constraints on stops in any of the Siouan languages. What I want to know is: are there very many roots with two voiceless unaspirated stops? The nomenclature for this type of root might be something like TVT(V). It seems to me that a lot of roots have one aspirated and one unaspirated stop. Is this accurate? Also, would it be fair to say that ejectives are relatively rare in the Siouan languages that have them? Thanks, Corey. PS. I use the word "root", but I think most Siouanists prefer "stem". If someone wants to clarify the difference between these two terms in their Siouan usage I would appreciate it, but perhaps that's a question for another day. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 4 02:03:31 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 19:03:31 -0700 Subject: What is a root? A Stem? (Re: Siouan root constraints) In-Reply-To: <3116.136.159.141.36.1107474014.squirrel@136.159.141.36> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 cstelfer at ucalgary.ca wrote: > PS. I use the word "root", but I think most Siouanists prefer "stem". If > someone wants to clarify the difference between these two terms in their > Siouan usage I would appreciate it, but perhaps that's a question for > another day. I'm not sure I'm representative, but for me a root is a minimal non-inflectional, non-derivational morphological element, while a stem is something that can stand alone as a word, e.g., a noun stem (s^uNka as opposed to just s^uNk-) and/or be inflected, e.g., a syncopating verb stem. I think this is the usual Indo-Europeanist logic, though I gather the behavioral basis of the approach tends to fall apart at the Germanic or Romance level. To a certain limited extent I'm prepared to refer to the independent form of a noun or verb (including only the additional stem-forming -a or -e or -ya or -ye) as a root. At least one problematic issue here would be the status of the form underlying a suppletive non-third person inflected form. It's inflectable, but can't stand alone. This only occurs with inflectable forms, being inflectable suffices. So sap- and s^uNk- are roots, and sapa or s^uNka are both stems and also roots (by courtesy), while yuha is a stem made up of a derivational prefix yu- and a root -ha, and any adverbial root would be a root that isn't a stem. I suppose paha would be an example of a noun form that was both a stem and the root. In Omaha, e=...e (first, second) ~ e (third) ~ dhaN (inclusive) are the suppletive stems of 'to say'. Or dadi (first, vocative) ~ (dh)adi (second, third) are the suppletive stems of 'father'. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 4 02:03:49 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 19:03:49 -0700 Subject: Siouan root constraints In-Reply-To: <3116.136.159.141.36.1107474014.squirrel@136.159.141.36> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 cstelfer at ucalgary.ca wrote: > I was wondering if anybody has ever taken a look at the root > constraints on stops in any of the Siouan languages. What I want to > know is: are there very many roots with two voiceless unaspirated > stops? The nomenclature for this type of root might be something like > TVT(V). It seems to me that a lot of roots have one aspirated and one > unaspirated stop. Is this accurate? Apologies in advance if I'm doing violence to the notation. I'm using Th for both *hT and the much rarer *Th forms. These contrast in Dhegiha, but fall together as Th in Dakotan (except that *Th comes out h with one exception, *matho 'grizzly'). In Ioway-Otoe and Winnebago the *Th falls together with *T as T while *hT becomes Th. (There's some subsequent shuffling in Winnebago to arrive at a T vs. D contrast.) With that in mind: ThVT(V) is relatively common. Lots of examples. TVT(V) is relatively rare. See below. T(h)VThV is vanishingly rare. Off hand I'm no thinking of any examples, as roots, anyway. Of course there are other patterns of roots. The statements above apply with little modification to more general forms like these: ThVC(V) ~ CCVC(V) is relatively common. TVC(V) is relatively rare. C(C)VThV is vanishingly rare. Again there are other classes of roots, e.g., various V and CV forms, CVC(V) with initial fricatives (voiceless, sometimes voiced), forms with ejectives or glottalized fricatives, rare trisyllabic patterns, etc. The standard sources for odd forms are numerals and loan words, and there's a sporting chance that the relevant numerals are just really old loans. Actually, forms with initial T (unaspirated stops) are distributionally limited in general. - They occur in demonstratives, e.g., *ka 'yon', maybe *te 'this' (but the cognate sets suggest *re and *Re, too). - They occur in enclitics, e.g., *tu 'in' seems to account for Dakotan -l ~ tu and OP -di. Or Winnebago has -gi in comparable contexts, from *-ki. They occur with instrumentals of the shape TV. These involve at least two patterns: - the instrumental forms with PS/PMV *p, i.e., *pa 'by pushing', *pi 'by pressing', which seem originally to have been syncopating (A1 *p-pa-, A2 *s^-pa-, A3 *pa-), and - the instrumental forms with *k, PMV *ka- 'by striking', which in Mississippi Valley often involves traces of k-loss or lenition (e.g., OP A1 a-(a)'-, A2 dha-(a)'-, A3 ga-), most likely because the original form is *(r)aka- (inflected A1 *w-aka-, A2 *r-aka-, A3 *(i)raka-) and there has been a lot of analogical repair in the paradigms. - The dative and suus particles often include reflexes of a prefix *ki-. Lately I've been thinking that the dative might have been *(r)iki, parallel with *ka. It would explain a lot. Apart from this there are certain verbs with initial *p, *t, *k. The standard Dhegiha set is something like: - *p-instrumental verbs - *taNpe 'see, look at' - *kaghe 'to make' (originally 'to make marks') - *kaNdha 'to donate' (not sure I have this form right by memory) - *kaNze 'to immitate, demonstrate' - *kaNyiNka 'not to want to' - *kaN=ra 'to want' For 'see', Ioway-Otoe and Winnebago substitute: - *a...ta 'to see' These verbs are usually syncopating in Dhegiha. Most are syncopating Ioway-Otoe and Winnebago. Many have trace irregularities due to syncopation in Dakotan. There are traces of others in this class, e.g., *paN 'to call out to', maybe *ta 'to get up', and so on. Nouns with initial T are also rare. The one I remember easily is - Da paha 'hill' I remember it because the set here is irregular, since OP, etc., ppahe suggests *hpah-, while the Dakotan form suggests *pah-. > Also, would it be fair to say that ejectives are relatively rare in the > Siouan languages that have them? Ejectives and glottalized fricatives are rare. I don't think you ever get more than one in a root except by reduplication. Mandan seems to have *T?V as TV? Glottalized obstruents are about as rare as T-initials. They are aways root initial, and the roots tend to have the form T?V (or S?V), though you find forms like Omaha iNs^?age (*s^?ak-) or s?adhe (*s?a(r)-). From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 4 02:17:17 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 19:17:17 -0700 Subject: Siouan root constraints In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2005, Koontz John E wrote: > I'm using Th > for both *hT and the much rarer *Th forms. These contrast in Dhegiha, but > fall together as Th in Dakotan (except that *Th Oops, correction, I made a meta-error. only *th becomes h in Dakotan, as in Da phehaN 'crane' vs. OP ppethaN < *hpethaN. (In some cases in Dhegiha, Winnebago, and Ioway-Otoe *ph comes out h.) > comes out h with one exception, *matho 'grizzly'). Da ma(N)tho, OP maNc^hu < *maNtho. Other common sets are *thi 'arrive here', *pethaN 'fold', *thu 'copulate', *wathe 'skirt', *the ~ thaN 'upright'. These Da h : OP th comparisons were first made by James Dorsey in the lists appended to his Comparative Phonology paper. Allan Taylor rediscovered *thi in his motion verb paper and provided the first process based account of what was happening. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Fri Feb 4 04:41:21 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 20:41:21 -0800 Subject: What is a root? A Stem? (Re: Siouan root constraints) Message-ID: To make a brief non-Siouan digression, 'root' and 'stem' are not the same thing in Algonquian, either. Basically, a stem is something inflectible. Roots, however, are essentially minimal derivational parts, and combine with other derivational parts to make inflectible stems. Some roots can also function as stems, but not most. David > I use the word "root", but I think most Siouanists prefer "stem". If someone > wants to clarify the difference between these two terms in their Siouan usage > I would appreciate it, but perhaps that's a question for another day. From rankin at ku.edu Fri Feb 4 15:07:52 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 09:07:52 -0600 Subject: Siouan root constraints Message-ID: I think we'd probably all agree that a root is always a single morpheme and is the semantically central morpheme in the word. A stem may contain more than one root (as in compounds) and is "everything you have in the word up to the point where you want to add something new." There are a few instances in which a single root cannot be isolated synchronically in Siouan. These include 2-part verbs like /ma-ni/ 'walk' or, in Dhegiha, /koN-ra/ 'want'. Historically, I can identify the roots here, but synchronically, no. And in some, both parts of the verb are inflected and you just have to say they are a single verb. As for Ch and C?, there are definite trends but no absolute rules. By and large both types of complex stops are restricted to roots. (Grammaticalization and a couple of phonological processes belie this as anything absolute.) Ch is, for the vast majority of cases, historically linked to accent. Therefore you expect to find these consonant types as the onset to accented syllables, and this is indeed true. Lack of accent accounts for why you so seldom find them in enclitics and affixes. From this, you would expect that accented syllables with a plain C onset would not exist, and, indeed, they are pretty rare. But they do exist, and I don't think we are sure why that is so. John listed several important examples. The historical relationship between accent and aspiration is no longer in operation except in Ofo. As I recall, Mandan, Hidatsa and Crow all have the reflex of glottalization in syllable codas. In Mandan and, I think, Hidatsa the corresponding form to Dakotan C?V is CV?. In Crow the same thing happens, but apparently Crow has then vocalized the ? as vowel length. Bob > I was wondering if anybody has ever taken a look at > the root > constraints on stops in any of the Siouan languages. > What I want to > know is: are there very many roots with two voiceless > unaspirated > stops? The nomenclature for this type of root might > be something like > TVT(V). It seems to me that a lot of roots have one > aspirated and one > unaspirated stop. Is this accurate? Also, would it > be fair to say > that ejectives are relatively rare in the Siouan > languages that have > them? From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 4 18:56:14 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:56:14 -0700 Subject: Siouan root constraints In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2005, Koontz John E wrote: > Apart from this there are certain verbs with initial *p, *t, *k. The > standard Dhegiha set is something like: > > - *p-instrumental verbs > - *taNpe 'see, look at' > - *kaghe 'to make' (originally 'to make marks') > - *kaNdha 'to donate' (not sure I have this form right by memory) > - *kaNze 'to immitate, demonstrate' > - *kaNyiNka 'not to want to' > - *kaN=ra 'to want' These were intended as sort of Omaha-Ponca influenced Proto-Dhegiha, but Bob's post reminds me that at least *koNze, *koNyiNka, and *koN=ra are probably not aN forms. I suspect the first syllables of the last two are etymologically connected. *koNyiNka 'not to want to' looks like 'to desire little to'. > Nouns with initial T are also rare. The one I remember easily is > > - Da paha 'hill' At one point the extreme rarity of *T-initial nouns and demonstatives and "outer preverbs" - things that precede all pronouns, not just non-inclusive pronouns in verb inflection - led me to suggest that the *R and *W phonemes of Proto-Mississippi Valley (and maybe Proto-Siouan) are the "strict word initial" or maybe "proto-Siouan phrase initial" reflexes of *t and *p. There isn't a potential corresponding velar alternation. At least *R and *W do occur initially in all of the forms listed and not usually in other contexts. One "within-Dhegiha" exception would be OP ama : Osage apa for 'the (mostly animate plural proximate)', also used for what Dorsey called 'purposefully moving singular', though Ardis Eschenberg and Carolyn Quintero have been arguing for more sophisticated analyses that amount to "degrees of proximity." The main thing to note with *T in Siouan is that, like voiced fricatives, it is very limited in pre-tonic distribution. Also, liked sonorants, but unlike voiced fricatives, it is generally associated historically with anomalous "lost vowel" patterns of behavior in regularly occurring preceding elements, e.g., syncopated inflectional prefixes and *ki-prefixes. And the flip side of this is that *hT and *Tr- and voiceless fricatives are generally limited to pretonic positions and associated with either loss of a preceding syllabic element (often there is evidence of former *wV- in various capacities) or with regular occurrence of preceding elements ending in a retained (or perhaps epenthetic) vowel, e.g., regular inflectional prefixes and *ki-prefixes. One possibility is that *hT is a conditioned allophone of *T in an environment like *#(CV)_V', which seems to be how aspiration works in Ofo. However, it's not clear how that would interact with the presence/absence of vowels in prefix patterns. Perhaps the inflectional pattern was created after the *hT : *T opposition was no longer productive. Cases of *Th seem to result from contractions and cases of *C? might involve realignment of glottalization, perhaps epenthetic glottal transitions following some stems. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sat Feb 5 11:39:33 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 12:39:33 +0100 Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan Message-ID: Dear all, Leon's query to me is quite interesting so it stirred up some reflective thoughts on my side ;-) > My project concerns the expression of (alienable) predicative possession in the languages of the world. To put it rather bluntly, I am interested in the various ways in which a sentence of the type "The man has a house/car/ horse" (or whatever things one may alienably possess in the society at issue) is formally encoded. As is already known in the literature (e.g. Heine 1998), there are a number of frequently recurring patterns for such sentences, such as a) the Have pattern, featuring a transitive verb, with the possessor as the subject and the possessed item as the direct object; English is of course an example; b) the Locative Possessive, of the type "To/at/near the man, a/his horse is/exists" c) the Topic-possessive, of the type "The man, a/his horse exists" d) With-Possessive, of the type "The man exists/is with a/his horse" (...) << More generally speaking, there are two groups of language patterns, namely "to have" languages and "to be" languages: "To have" languages are mostly European languages such as English, German and French. They use the verb "to have" to express an idea of possession, as in "I have a car" or "He has a brother". "To be" languages are presented by Russian, Japanese and others which say about possession as quality or even location. For instance, Russians normally use structures like ???-?? ? ????-?? ???? (there is smth. at smb.) or ???-?? ???-?? ???? (there is smth. somewhere) to express possession. A possessor is passive in the languages of a "to be" group. E.g. Russian: U menya yest koshka ? ???? ???? ????? (I have a cat) U sestry yest koshka ? ?????? ???? ????? (the sister has a cat) (to-me/the sister's exists - a - cat) Hungarian: (Nekem) van házam/házam van. (I have a house) Szomszédomnak háza van. (My neighbour has a house) (Neki) van háza/háza van. (S/he has a house) (I/neighbour-my/he-dative exists house-my/his) Hebrew: Yesh li bait (I have a house) Ein li kesef (I don't have money) (exists/lacks to-me house/money) Ein lanu zman (we don't have time) (lacks to-us time) Yesh la-ish sus (the man has a horse) (exists to-the-man horse) Ein la-student kesef (the student has no money) (lacks to-the-student money) Latin Mihi domus est (I have a house) (I-dative is/exists house) The "to-have" languages are well-known. > Another thing that is problematic for me is the fact that, in some grammars of Siouan languages, a verb is featured which is constantly glossed as a transitve 'have'- item; the Lakota verb 'yuka' and the Biloxi verb ''ita' are cases in point. Now, as far as my sample goes, North America is not really a place to have original transitive HAVE-verbs; in fact, Lakota and Biloxi would stand alone on the continent if they had this feature. Therefore my question is: is it possible that these 'have'-items are in fact the products of reanalysis from an erstwhile positional verb such as 'to stand, to lie' etc. ? (...) << I think it should be _yuha'_ (instead of _*yuka_ ). As far as I can judge this, it actually seems to be a transitive "to-have" verb like in most European languages! I don't know the etymology of Dakotan _yuha'_ (i.e. where the root -ha derives), but most strikingly the prefix yu- seems to be denoting "hand"-action. In Spanish, "to have" is expressed by "tener" (tengo etc.) Latin _tenere_ (to hold - with the hand), and going into the etymology of German "haben", interestingly also yields results pointing in this direction: durativum to germanic *haf-ja- (German "heben"=to hold/grasp with the hand). Interestingly, German "heben" is said to be related to ig. (indoeuropean) *kap- -> Latin "capio" (I take/seize) -> e.g. mancipatio (the legal act of "taking by/with the hand i.e. take possession of [e.g. a slave]). But modern Chinese (Putonghua) too is a "to-have" language! E.g. _you3_ (to have/there is): "Wo you qian." (I have money). In this use, it clearly is transitive! (although there are other functions too, e.g. "you ren shuo..." - there are men saying -> men say/it is said..., yet, this doesn't matter in this context). Interestingly that the character's etymology also points into the direction elaborated on above: the modern version depicts a hand (sic) above the moon (or maybe also meat), whereas the ancient character just displayed a hand as such. So, here again, (and far off the European linguistic influence) the idea of "to have/possess" is expressed by "to hold in the hand/grasp with the hand". All this said, I am not at all surprized to find _yuha'_ in Dakotan. Anyhow, on a continent like America there are so many very different native tongues, why not also this type of "to-have" language. (If you're interested, here's a maybe provocative opinion http://members.tripod.com/~kajJ/images2/Dakota.html that could make this matter still more plausible ;-) ) Alfred From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 6 00:09:06 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 16:09:06 -0800 Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan In-Reply-To: <4204B075.9030703@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: -- Russians normally use structures like ???-?? ? ????-?? ???? (there is smth. at smb.) or ???-?? ???-?? ???? (there is smth. somewhere) to express possession. -- I think Russian falls into both categories here, because there is also the verb "imyet' " (to have or possess), which takes direct object, e.g. "ya imyeyu koshku", as well as "u menya koshka". -- Another thing that is problematic for me is the fact that, in some grammars of Siouan languages, a verb is featured which is constantly glossed as a transitve 'have'- item; the Lakota verb 'yuka' and the Biloxi verb ''ita' are cases in point. -- This is good for me to know too! Dorsey translates "ta" and "ita" as "have" in his dictionary, although it doesn't seem to be used as a transitive verb, at least as far as I can see so far. One way of saying someone has something in Biloxi is by saying something "moves" or "sits" (exists?), as in Dorsey's examples: "conki ktak ande" (dog his/her moves) and "conki ktak nanki" (dog his/her sits). (Not sure exactly what the "ktak" is here!) Are you looking into Polynesian languages too? Hawaiian, and apparently other Polynesian languages, are among the only languages in the world where possession can bounce between alienable and inalienable (represented by the type of possessive pronoun used). Dave "Alfred W. T�ting" wrote: Dear all, Leon's query to me is quite interesting so it stirred up some reflective thoughts on my side ;-) > My project concerns the expression of (alienable) predicative possession in the languages of the world. To put it rather bluntly, I am interested in the various ways in which a sentence of the type "The man has a house/car/ horse" (or whatever things one may alienably possess in the society at issue) is formally encoded. As is already known in the literature (e.g. Heine 1998), there are a number of frequently recurring patterns for such sentences, such as a) the Have pattern, featuring a transitive verb, with the possessor as the subject and the possessed item as the direct object; English is of course an example; b) the Locative Possessive, of the type "To/at/near the man, a/his horse is/exists" c) the Topic-possessive, of the type "The man, a/his horse exists" d) With-Possessive, of the type "The man exists/is with a/his horse" (...) << More generally speaking, there are two groups of language patterns, namely "to have" languages and "to be" languages: "To have" languages are mostly European languages such as English, German and French. They use the verb "to have" to express an idea of possession, as in "I have a car" or "He has a brother". "To be" languages are presented by Russian, Japanese and others which say about possession as quality or even location. For instance, Russians normally use structures like ???-?? ? ????-?? ???? (there is smth. at smb.) or ???-?? ???-?? ???? (there is smth. somewhere) to express possession. A possessor is passive in the languages of a "to be" group. E.g. Russian: U menya yest koshka ? ???? ???? ????? (I have a cat) U sestry yest koshka ? ?????? ???? ????? (the sister has a cat) (to-me/the sister's exists - a - cat) Hungarian: (Nekem) van h�zam/h�zam van. (I have a house) Szomsz�domnak h�za van. (My neighbour has a house) (Neki) van h�za/h�za van. (S/he has a house) (I/neighbour-my/he-dative exists house-my/his) Hebrew: Yesh li bait (I have a house) Ein li kesef (I don't have money) (exists/lacks to-me house/money) Ein lanu zman (we don't have time) (lacks to-us time) Yesh la-ish sus (the man has a horse) (exists to-the-man horse) Ein la-student kesef (the student has no money) (lacks to-the-student money) Latin Mihi domus est (I have a house) (I-dative is/exists house) The "to-have" languages are well-known. > Another thing that is problematic for me is the fact that, in some grammars of Siouan languages, a verb is featured which is constantly glossed as a transitve 'have'- item; the Lakota verb 'yuka' and the Biloxi verb ''ita' are cases in point. Now, as far as my sample goes, North America is not really a place to have original transitive HAVE-verbs; in fact, Lakota and Biloxi would stand alone on the continent if they had this feature. Therefore my question is: is it possible that these 'have'-items are in fact the products of reanalysis from an erstwhile positional verb such as 'to stand, to lie' etc. ? (...) << I think it should be _yuha'_ (instead of _*yuka_ ). As far as I can judge this, it actually seems to be a transitive "to-have" verb like in most European languages! I don't know the etymology of Dakotan _yuha'_ (i.e. where the root -ha derives), but most strikingly the prefix yu- seems to be denoting "hand"-action. In Spanish, "to have" is expressed by "tener" (tengo etc.) Latin _tenere_ (to hold - with the hand), and going into the etymology of German "haben", interestingly also yields results pointing in this direction: durativum to germanic *haf-ja- (German "heben"=to hold/grasp with the hand). Interestingly, German "heben" is said to be related to ig. (indoeuropean) *kap- -> Latin "capio" (I take/seize) -> e.g. mancipatio (the legal act of "taking by/with the hand i.e. take possession of [e.g. a slave]). But modern Chinese (Putonghua) too is a "to-have" language! E.g. _you3_ (to have/there is): "Wo you qian." (I have money). In this use, it clearly is transitive! (although there are other functions too, e.g. "you ren shuo..." - there are men saying -> men say/it is said..., yet, this doesn't matter in this context). Interestingly that the character's etymology also points into the direction elaborated on above: the modern version depicts a hand (sic) above the moon (or maybe also meat), whereas the ancient character just displayed a hand as such. So, here again, (and far off the European linguistic influence) the idea of "to have/possess" is expressed by "to hold in the hand/grasp with the hand". All this said, I am not at all surprized to find _yuha'_ in Dakotan. Anyhow, on a continent like America there are so many very different native tongues, why not also this type of "to-have" language. (If you're interested, here's a maybe provocative opinion http://members.tripod.com/~kajJ/images2/Dakota.html that could make this matter still more plausible ;-) ) Alfred --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sun Feb 6 12:39:05 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 13:39:05 +0100 Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan Message-ID: > Are you looking into Polynesian languages too? Hawaiian, and apparently other Polynesian languages, are among the only languages in the world where possession can bounce between alienable and inalienable (represented by the type of possessive pronoun used). << Yes, (although I only provided examples of languages I'm more or less familiar with - except for Russian that I dealt with about 50 years back - and have forgotten most of it :( ). But don't also Dakotan tongues - theoretically - can "bounce between alienable and inalienable" possession (albeit in more complex ways)? In Hawaiian, it appears to be much less complex: "The possessive pronominals of Hawaiian can occur either postnominally as analytic pronouns or prenominally, bound to the definite article. These pronouns express alienable/inalienable distinctions through the thematic vowel o/a." (e.g. your hat: ka pa:ale a'u or k-a'u pa:ale glossed as: DEF hat ALIENABLE.you.POSS or DEF.ALIENABLE.you.POSS hat). Most probably using the same structure for, say, niho (tooth) would be ungrammatical and it should be ka niho o'u/ko'u niho instead. Alfred From rankin at ku.edu Sun Feb 6 15:30:24 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 09:30:24 -0600 Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan Message-ID: > Are you looking into Polynesian languages too? > Hawaiian, and apparently other Polynesian languages, > are among the only languages in the world where > possession can bounce between alienable and > inalienable (represented by the type of possessive > pronoun used). If I understand the question here, Choctaw can do that too. /sassish/ and /amissish/ both meaning 'my blood', but in one case it's in your body and inalienable, while in the other it's dripped out of a cut and is on the table -- and alienable. The pronominals are sa- and am-. bob From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Sun Feb 6 22:13:45 2005 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 15:13:45 -0700 Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan In-Reply-To: <4204B075.9030703@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: I have joined this discussion without reading all that has preceded it, so maybe this is redundant, but let me add my two cents anyway. Lakhota has several verbs for showing possession. "Yuha" is used most commonly today, but apparently its more subtle meaning has to do with temporary possession, sort of like "hold". So you can't use it with kinship terms or body parts, i.e. the things that are inalienably possessed. This is very much parallel in structure to European transitive verbs for 'to have'. Note also its derivatives, like "wayuha" 'to have stuff', 'to be rich', and the fact that you can use it for 'I have a cold', too --- clearly a calque from English. For inalienable posessions you must use "yukhaN" (is this Alfred's "yuka"??), which means something more literally like 'exist for' -- 'two arms exist for me" -- not a very good translation, but perhaps you see the point. The absence of posession is the ordinary negative for yuha, but the negative of yukhaN is "nica" or "wanica" 'to fail to exist, to be absent'. I have never been sure I understood the difference between those two, but it sometimes looks as if one of them refers to the absence of something that you have to have, like fathers, as opposed to something that you might have, like brothers. I don't know which is which. To complicate matters more, the range of possible objects for "nica" is larger than that for "yukhaN", since you (routinely, for many of us) say "mazaska manice" for 'I don't have any money", lit. 'money is non-existent for me'. Note, too, that these (i.e. both yukhaN and nica) have weird argument structure: they take stative affixes for the possessor, but there is always a second argument in the construction. Note that "yuha" is also used for children -- 'I have two children" uses "wichabluha", and that holds if you list them separately as sons and daughters, too, at least with the words "wakhaNyezha" 'child', "hoks^ila" 'boy', and "wiciNcala" 'girl'. I'm not sure what you do with the actual kin terms "chiNks^i" 'son' and "chuNks^i" 'daughter'. The other posessessive verb is "thawa", meaning 'belongs to', e.g. "He mithawa" 'that's mine' (note the irregular "i" vowel in the first person prefix; it recurs in the plural uNkithawapi 'our'; its source is a mystery, but there are other instances of mi- as a possessive prefix). It is used preferentially for objects that are not normally possessed, like a rock that you have in your hand at the moment, rather than the prefixed possessive forms. The latter are preferred otherwise, e.g. manape 'my hand' (maybe it's minape, though I don't think so right now) (nape 'hand'), and "mitha'iyechiNkiyaNke" 'my car' (iyechiNkiyaNke 'car'), but wowapi mithawa ki 'my book' (wowapi 'book', ki 'the'). (In the prefixes, -tha- is required for inalienably possessed items.)You can use "thawa" either attributively or predicatively -- "He wowaypi mithawa" 'that book is mine; that's my book.' And finally, kin terms have yet another system, in addition to yukhaN and nica: the causative verb -ya can be sufffixed to any of them to show possession. E.g. "ate" 'father' "atewaye" 'my father; he is my father'. Note that now the possessor is marked with ACTIVE prefixes; "inamaye" means 'I am his/her mother'. We gloss these as 'to have as...', though the style level is wrong for that (I have him as father = atewaye), since these are apparently fairly high frequency in Lakhota -- but it gets the arguments in the right places. Now isn't that a lot more than you wanted to know about possession marking in Lakhota? I don't think you can call this a "have" language or a "be" language. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Sat, 5 Feb 2005, [ISO-8859-1] "Alfred W. T�ting" wrote: > Dear all, > > Leon's query to me is quite interesting so it stirred up some reflective > thoughts on my side ;-) > > > My project concerns the expression of (alienable) predicative > possession in the languages of the world. To put it rather bluntly, I am > interested in the various ways in which a sentence of the type "The man > has a house/car/ horse" (or whatever things one may alienably possess in > the society at issue) is formally encoded. As is already known in the > literature (e.g. Heine 1998), there are a number of frequently recurring > patterns for such sentences, such as > > a) the Have pattern, featuring a transitive verb, with the possessor as > the subject and the possessed item as the direct object; English is of > course an example; > b) the Locative Possessive, of the type "To/at/near the man, a/his horse > is/exists" > c) the Topic-possessive, of the type "The man, a/his horse exists" > d) With-Possessive, of the type "The man exists/is with a/his horse" > (...) << > > > More generally speaking, there are two groups of language patterns, > namely "to have" languages and "to be" languages: > > "To have" languages are mostly European languages such as English, > German and French. They use the verb "to have" to express an idea of > possession, as in "I have a car" or "He has a brother". > > "To be" languages are presented by Russian, Japanese and others which > say about possession as quality or even location. For instance, Russians > normally use structures like ???-?? ? ????-?? ???? (there is smth. at > smb.) or ???-?? ???-?? ???? (there is smth. somewhere) to express > possession. A possessor is passive in the languages of a "to be" group. > > E.g. > Russian: U menya yest koshka ? ???? ???? ????? (I have a cat) > U sestry yest koshka ? ?????? ???? ????? (the sister has a cat) > (to-me/the sister's exists - a - cat) > > Hungarian: (Nekem) van h�zam/h�zam van. (I have a house) > Szomsz�domnak h�za van. (My neighbour has a house) > (Neki) van h�za/h�za van. (S/he has a house) > (I/neighbour-my/he-dative exists house-my/his) > > Hebrew: Yesh li bait (I have a house) > Ein li kesef (I don't have money) > (exists/lacks to-me house/money) > Ein lanu zman (we don't have time) > (lacks to-us time) > Yesh la-ish sus (the man has a horse) > (exists to-the-man horse) > Ein la-student kesef (the student has no money) > (lacks to-the-student money) > > Latin Mihi domus est (I have a house) > (I-dative is/exists house) > > > The "to-have" languages are well-known. > > > > Another thing that is problematic for me is the fact that, in some > grammars of Siouan languages, a verb is featured which is constantly > glossed as a transitve 'have'- item; the Lakota verb 'yuka' and the > Biloxi verb ''ita' are cases in point. Now, as far as my sample goes, > North America is not really a place to have original transitive > HAVE-verbs; in fact, Lakota and Biloxi would stand alone on the > continent if they had this feature. Therefore my question is: is it > possible that these 'have'-items are in fact the products of reanalysis > from an erstwhile positional verb such as 'to stand, to lie' etc. ? (...) << > > > I think it should be _yuha'_ (instead of _*yuka_ ). > As far as I can judge this, it actually seems to be a transitive > "to-have" verb like in most European languages! > I don't know the etymology of Dakotan _yuha'_ (i.e. where the root -ha > derives), but most strikingly the prefix yu- seems to be denoting > "hand"-action. > > In Spanish, "to have" is expressed by "tener" (tengo etc.) Latin > _tenere_ (to hold - with the hand), and going into the etymology of > German "haben", interestingly also yields results pointing in this > direction: durativum to germanic *haf-ja- (German "heben"=to hold/grasp > with the hand). Interestingly, German "heben" is said to be related to > ig. (indoeuropean) *kap- -> Latin "capio" (I take/seize) -> e.g. > mancipatio (the legal act of "taking by/with the hand i.e. take > possession of [e.g. a slave]). > > But modern Chinese (Putonghua) too is a "to-have" language! > E.g. _you3_ (to have/there is): "Wo you qian." (I have money). In this > use, it clearly is transitive! (although there are other functions too, > e.g. "you ren shuo..." - there are men saying -> men say/it is said..., > yet, this doesn't matter in this context). > Interestingly that the character's etymology also points into the > direction elaborated on above: the modern version depicts a hand (sic) > above the moon (or maybe also meat), whereas the ancient character just > displayed a hand as such. So, here again, (and far off the European > linguistic influence) the idea of "to have/possess" is expressed by "to > hold in the hand/grasp with the hand". > > All this said, I am not at all surprized to find _yuha'_ in Dakotan. > Anyhow, on a continent like America there are so many very different > native tongues, why not also this type of "to-have" language. > (If you're interested, here's a maybe provocative opinion > > http://members.tripod.com/~kajJ/images2/Dakota.html > > that could make this matter still more plausible ;-) ) > > Alfred > > > > > > From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 03:35:00 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 19:35:00 -0800 Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan In-Reply-To: <42060FE9.8010308@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: Alfred T. wrote: -- These pronouns express alienable/inalienable distinctions through the thematic vowel o/a." (e.g. your hat: ka pa:ale a'u or k-a'u pa:ale glossed as: DEF hat ALIENABLE.you.POSS or DEF.ALIENABLE.you.POSS hat). Most probably using the same structure for, say, niho (tooth) would be ungrammatical and it should be ka niho o'u/ko'u niho instead. -- Exactly. In Hawaiian, things like body parts and family members (like Siouan) as well as house, canoe, thoughts, one's chief, etc. are considered inalienable taking the ko'u pronominal. Bob R. wrote: -- Choctaw can do that too. /sassish/ and /amissish/ both meaning 'my blood', but in one case it's in your body and inalienable, while in the other it's dripped out of a cut and is on the table -- and alienable. -- This is more like what I had in mind for Hawaiian, where some nouns can take either the inalienable ko'u or the alienable ka'u with changes in meaning, e.g.: ka'u nani (my pretty one) vs. ko'u nani (my fine looks); ka'u lei (lei made by me) vs. ko'u lei (lei that I'm wearing). Hope that makes some sense! Dave "Alfred W. T�ting" wrote: > Are you looking into Polynesian languages too? Hawaiian, and apparently other Polynesian languages, are among the only languages in the world where possession can bounce between alienable and inalienable (represented by the type of possessive pronoun used). << Yes, (although I only provided examples of languages I'm more or less familiar with - except for Russian that I dealt with about 50 years back - and have forgotten most of it :( ). But don't also Dakotan tongues - theoretically - can "bounce between alienable and inalienable" possession (albeit in more complex ways)? In Hawaiian, it appears to be much less complex: "The possessive pronominals of Hawaiian can occur either postnominally as analytic pronouns or prenominally, bound to the definite article. These pronouns express alienable/inalienable distinctions through the thematic vowel o/a." (e.g. your hat: ka pa:ale a'u or k-a'u pa:ale glossed as: DEF hat ALIENABLE.you.POSS or DEF.ALIENABLE.you.POSS hat). Most probably using the same structure for, say, niho (tooth) would be ungrammatical and it should be ka niho o'u/ko'u niho instead. Alfred --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Mon Feb 7 17:23:48 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 18:23:48 +0100 Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan Message-ID: Thanks to David for elaborating on this. > Lakhota has several verbs for showing possession. "Yuha" is used most commonly today, but apparently its more subtle meaning has to do with temporary possession, sort of like "hold". So you can't use it with kinship terms or body parts, i.e. the things that are inalienably possessed. This is very much parallel in structure to European transitive verbs for 'to have'(...) << That's exactly what I - pretty "lengthily" - wanted to point out referring to the "hand" thing in pretty different languages all around the globe. > For inalienable possessions you must use "yukhaN" (is this Alfred's "yuka"??), which means something more literally like 'exist for' -- 'two arms exist for me" -- not a very good translation, but perhaps you see the point (...) << Yes, I thought of _yukxaN_ too. Yet, since Leon focussed on alienable possession and (questionable) transitive use of _*yuka_, I think this is a typo. Of course, [yukxaN'] is different: "Igmu sinte yukan" (cats have tails). It also seems that different shades of meaning can be expressed according to the use of poss. prefix: managi vs. minagi (Oglala: my shadow vs. my spirit/ghost). > The absence of posession is the ordinary negative for yuha, but the negative of yukhaN is "nica" or "wanica" 'to fail to exist, to be absent'. I have never been sure I understood the difference between those two, but it sometimes looks as if one of them refers to the absence of something that you have to have, like fathers, as opposed to something that you might have, like brothers. I don't know which is which.<< I often fail to understand Buechel: according to B. _nica_ [ni'ca] is an active verb (va) -> manice/ninice (to be destute of, to have none of), whereas _wanica_ is an adjective (adj) with the meaning "none, without any" - but, at the same time giving the same forms as for _nica_ i.e. manica/ninica/unicapi! I'd tend to see wanica as a verb with a generic object. > Now isn't that a lot more than you wanted to know about possession marking in Lakhota? I don't think you can call this a "have" language or a "be" language. << Did I express this? Misunderstanding! I'm aware of the pretty complicated possession marking in Dakota and just wanted to focus on alienable possession in the sense of "I have money": Ich habe Geld. Tengo dinero. Mazaska bluha. Wo you qian. vs. Van pénzem. Yesh li kesef. etc. Under this (limited) aspect, Dakota can be called a to-have language. Alfred From rankin at ku.edu Mon Feb 7 20:15:38 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 14:15:38 -0600 Subject: possessive constructions in siouan Message-ID: Are you fellows forwarding these comments to the guy who wrote me and asked the original question, or should one of us do that? Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: ""Alfred W. Tüting"" To: Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 11:23 AM Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan > Thanks to David for elaborating on this. > >> Lakhota has several verbs for showing possession. >> "Yuha" is used > most commonly today, but apparently its more subtle > meaning has to do with temporary possession, sort of > like "hold". So you can't use it with kinship terms > or body parts, i.e. the things that are inalienably > possessed. This is very much parallel in structure > to European transitive verbs for 'to have'(...) << > > That's exactly what I - pretty "lengthily" - wanted > to point out referring to the "hand" thing in pretty > different languages all around the globe. > > > > For inalienable possessions you must use "yukhaN" > > (is this > Alfred's "yuka"??), which means something more > literally like 'exist for' -- 'two arms exist for > me" -- not a very good translation, but perhaps you > see the point (...) << > > > Yes, I thought of _yukxaN_ too. Yet, since Leon > focussed on alienable possession and (questionable) > transitive use of _*yuka_, I think this is a typo. > Of course, [yukxaN'] is different: "Igmu sinte yukan" > (cats have tails). > > It also seems that different shades of meaning can be > expressed according to the use of poss. prefix: > managi vs. minagi (Oglala: my shadow vs. my > spirit/ghost). > > > > The absence of posession is the ordinary negative > > for yuha, but the > negative of yukhaN is "nica" or "wanica" 'to fail to > exist, to be absent'. I have never been sure I > understood the difference between those two, but it > sometimes looks as if one of them refers to the > absence of something that you have to have, like > fathers, as opposed to something that you might have, > like brothers. I don't know which is which.<< > > I often fail to understand Buechel: according to B. > _nica_ [ni'ca] is an active verb (va) -> > manice/ninice (to be destute of, to have none of), > whereas _wanica_ is an adjective (adj) with the > meaning "none, without any" - but, at the same time > giving the same forms as for _nica_ i.e. > manica/ninica/unicapi! I'd tend to see wanica as a > verb with a generic object. > > > > Now isn't that a lot more than you wanted to know > > about possession > marking in Lakhota? I don't think you can call this > a "have" language or a "be" language. << > > > Did I express this? Misunderstanding! I'm aware of > the pretty complicated possession marking in Dakota > and just wanted to focus on alienable possession in > the sense of "I have money": > Ich habe Geld. > Tengo dinero. > Mazaska bluha. > Wo you qian. > > vs. > > Van pénzem. > Yesh li kesef. > etc. > > Under this (limited) aspect, Dakota can be called a > to-have language. > > > Alfred > > > > > > > > > From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon Feb 7 20:41:32 2005 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 13:41:32 -0700 Subject: possessive constructions in siouan In-Reply-To: <004701c50d51$cb4f6fa0$2eb5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: I have only been writing to the Siouanist list -- I'm not sure where the first question came from. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, R. Rankin wrote: > Are you fellows forwarding these comments to the guy > who wrote me and asked the original question, or should > one of us do that? > > Bob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ""Alfred W. Tüting"" > To: > Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 11:23 AM > Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan > > > > Thanks to David for elaborating on this. > > > >> Lakhota has several verbs for showing possession. > >> "Yuha" is used > > most commonly today, but apparently its more subtle > > meaning has to do with temporary possession, sort of > > like "hold". So you can't use it with kinship terms > > or body parts, i.e. the things that are inalienably > > possessed. This is very much parallel in structure > > to European transitive verbs for 'to have'(...) << > > > > That's exactly what I - pretty "lengthily" - wanted > > to point out referring to the "hand" thing in pretty > > different languages all around the globe. > > > > > > > For inalienable possessions you must use "yukhaN" > > > (is this > > Alfred's "yuka"??), which means something more > > literally like 'exist for' -- 'two arms exist for > > me" -- not a very good translation, but perhaps you > > see the point (...) << > > > > > > Yes, I thought of _yukxaN_ too. Yet, since Leon > > focussed on alienable possession and (questionable) > > transitive use of _*yuka_, I think this is a typo. > > Of course, [yukxaN'] is different: "Igmu sinte yukan" > > (cats have tails). > > > > It also seems that different shades of meaning can be > > expressed according to the use of poss. prefix: > > managi vs. minagi (Oglala: my shadow vs. my > > spirit/ghost). > > > > > > > The absence of posession is the ordinary negative > > > for yuha, but the > > negative of yukhaN is "nica" or "wanica" 'to fail to > > exist, to be absent'. I have never been sure I > > understood the difference between those two, but it > > sometimes looks as if one of them refers to the > > absence of something that you have to have, like > > fathers, as opposed to something that you might have, > > like brothers. I don't know which is which.<< > > > > I often fail to understand Buechel: according to B. > > _nica_ [ni'ca] is an active verb (va) -> > > manice/ninice (to be destute of, to have none of), > > whereas _wanica_ is an adjective (adj) with the > > meaning "none, without any" - but, at the same time > > giving the same forms as for _nica_ i.e. > > manica/ninica/unicapi! I'd tend to see wanica as a > > verb with a generic object. > > > > > > > Now isn't that a lot more than you wanted to know > > > about possession > > marking in Lakhota? I don't think you can call this > > a "have" language or a "be" language. << > > > > > > Did I express this? Misunderstanding! I'm aware of > > the pretty complicated possession marking in Dakota > > and just wanted to focus on alienable possession in > > the sense of "I have money": > > Ich habe Geld. > > Tengo dinero. > > Mazaska bluha. > > Wo you qian. > > > > vs. > > > > Van pénzem. > > Yesh li kesef. > > etc. > > > > Under this (limited) aspect, Dakota can be called a > > to-have language. > > > > > > Alfred > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Feb 8 12:06:13 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:06:13 +0100 Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan Message-ID: > (Prof, Rankin) Are you fellows forwarding these comments to the guy who wrote me and asked the original question, or should one of us do that? << If this thread can be regarded as closed, I'd be grateful if you did. Alfred From rankin at ku.edu Tue Feb 8 17:22:23 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:22:23 -0600 Subject: possessive constructions in siouan Message-ID: No problem. Unless someone objects, I'll collect all the responses and forward them to the fellow who wrote me. Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of "Alfred W. Tüting" Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 6:06 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan > (Prof, Rankin) Are you fellows forwarding these comments to the guy who wrote me and asked the original question, or should one of us do that? << If this thread can be regarded as closed, I'd be grateful if you did. Alfred From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Feb 8 17:55:06 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:55:06 +0100 Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan Message-ID: > (Prof. Rankin) No problem. Unless someone objects, I'll collect all the responses and forward them to the fellow who wrote me. << He un lila pilamayayin ktelo. Alfred From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Feb 10 03:31:00 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:31:00 -0600 Subject: Unicode again Message-ID: Bob, After all the work on that Word doc for character-picking, I found Richard Ishida's site, http://people.w3.org/rishida/scripts/pickers/ See especially the IPA and Latin+ pickers. They're beautifully done and very easy to use (assuming your browser is Unicode-compliant). It's fun to sit and plunk away at them. (Note the simplicity of making composite characters--and the right-to-left text entry for Arabic and Hebrew.) I've downloaded them onto my hard-drive, and they work fine that way also, so you don't need to be on line. Best, Alan P.S. to the list: Bob's remarks about the difficulties of composing characters (with ogonek, I think) prompted me to make a list of the characters I encounter frequently in working with pronunciations and (mostly Native American) etymologies. The Word file that resulted is wholly superseded by Ishida's Web-based pickers. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Fri Feb 11 15:09:27 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:09:27 +0100 Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan Message-ID: > (Alan) After all the work on that Word doc for character-picking, I found Richard Ishida's site, http://people.w3.org/rishida/scripts/pickers/ See especially the IPA and Latin+ pickers. They're beautifully done and very easy to use (assuming your browser is Unicode-compliant). It's fun to sit and plunk away at them. (Note the simplicity of making composite characters--and the right-to-left text entry for Arabic and Hebrew.) I've downloaded them onto my hard-drive, and they work fine that way also, so you don't need to be on line. << It's done nicely, yet typing in a longer text, say in Lakota, is quite cumbersome. I did it with some Yidish below, but am quite unsure whether or not you will be able to read it under html encoding. It's from right to left but after copy paste, this format is not at all sufficient regarding right alignment. (I usually am using a script I wrote for Mac SILKey which with regard to typing in longer texts is much more comfortable. I also tried to do that for Dakota but for unknown reasons failed in addressing the different special characters - maybe because SILKey doesn't support Unicode?). ??????! ?'???? ??????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ????, ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????, ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? Alfred From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri Feb 11 15:34:40 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:34:40 -0600 Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan In-Reply-To: <420CCAA7.1050809@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: Alfred W. Tüting wrote: > It's done nicely, yet typing in a longer text, say in Lakota, is quite > cumbersome. I did it with some Yidish below, but am quite unsure whether > or not you will be able to read it under html encoding. It's from right > to left but after copy paste, this format is not at all sufficient > regarding right alignment. (I usually am using a script I wrote for Mac > SILKey which with regard to typing in longer texts is much more > comfortable. I also tried to do that for Dakota but for unknown reasons > failed in addressing the different special characters - maybe because > SILKey doesn't support Unicode?). For me, the Yiddish shows up as ????? Maybe you sent your message as plain (ascii) text rather than as HTML. (You have to set your email program to compose in HTML, and of course, your recipients have to have an HTML-compatible mail program too.) Alan From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Fri Feb 11 15:57:20 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?UTF-8?B?IkFsZnJlZCBXLiBUw7x0aW5nIg==?=) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:57:20 +0100 Subject: Unicode again Message-ID: Sorry for the erroneous subject in my previous post! I now have switched my mail program (Mac Netscape 7.1) to UTF8 and right align - and it seems to work so far. So, please be patient with me - only one more try with the Hebrew encoding :-) דיז זאָל זײַר דער לעצטער פאַרזוך דאָ צו שרײַבן אַ פַאָר װערטער אױף ייִדיש. אַ דאַנק פאַר אײַך אַלע אן זײַט געזונט אַלפרעד (diz zol zayn der letster farzukh do tsu shraybn a por verter af yidish. a dank far aykh ale un zayt gezunt. This shall be my last try here to write some words in Yiddish. Thanks to you all and good bye.) Alfred -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Fri Feb 11 17:28:21 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:28:21 -0600 Subject: Unicode again Message-ID: Hey, that looks great! And I can even read quite a bit of the transliterated version. Who knew?! But this brings up an important point. I've noticed in corresponding with members of the list that my unicode messages come out all bollixed up if the reader at the other end doesn't have his browser/email program set to "Unicode". Most of the characters that form the upper case on the numeral keys on the top row of the keyboard come out wrong. So setting your mailer for unicode is important. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: ""Alfred W. Tüting"" To: Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 9:57 AM Subject: Unicode again > Sorry for the erroneous subject in my previous post! > > I now have switched my mail program (Mac Netscape > 7.1) to UTF8 and right > align - and it seems to work so far. > So, please be patient with me - only one more try > with the Hebrew > encoding :-) > > דיז זאָל זײַר דער לעצטער פאַרזוך דאָ צו שרײַבן אַ > פַאָר װערטער אױף ייִדיש. אַ דאַנק > פאַר אײַך אַלע אן זײַט געזונט > אַלפרעד > > > (diz zol zayn der letster farzukh do tsu shraybn a > por verter af yidish. > a dank far aykh ale un zayt gezunt. This shall be my > last try here to > write some words in Yiddish. Thanks to you all and > good bye.) > > Alfred > From rankin at ku.edu Fri Feb 11 17:31:52 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:31:52 -0600 Subject: Stoney beans. Message-ID: Dear all, Can anyone tell me if the Stoney dialects have a reflex of Dakotan /omnica/ 'beans'? Assiniboine apparently only has /uNkshukshuna/ (sh is s[hacek]) (thanks to Linda and to Doug's on-line dictionary for this). I'm curious whether Stoney is like this also. Bob From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Fri Feb 11 19:06:05 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?UTF-8?B?IkFsZnJlZCBXLiBUw7x0aW5nIg==?=) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:06:05 +0100 Subject: correction (Unicode again) Message-ID: Just one (last!) correction - my Yiddish's got pretty rusty ;-): דאָס װערטל ״*דיז״ איז נישט ריכטיק אַז׳ס זאָל הײסן אױף ייִדיש ״דאָס״. צום באַדױערן מוז איך זאָגן, אז ״*דיז״ איז דײַטשמעריש און נישט קײַן ייִדיש dos vertl "*diz" iz nisht rikhtik az's zol heysn af yidish "dos". tsum badoyern muz ikh zogn, az "*diz" iz daytshmerish un nisht kayn yidish. The little word "*diz" is not correct and should be "dos" instead. Sorry I've to say that "*diz" is a "Germanizm" and not correct Yiddish.) Alfred -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri Feb 11 20:13:23 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:13:23 -0600 Subject: Unicode again In-Reply-To: <001601c5105f$160f34c0$26b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Alfred's HTML Yiddish comes out beautifully for me too. I think it would be useful to know how many list-members can read Unicoded characters in HTML mail. Below are a few Lakota words chosen because they include non-ascii characters. The words are copied from Rood & Taylor's Sketch in HNAI 17: yuwášte húͅku [wakhæ̂ͅˑža] uͅyɔ̂̂ͅͅˑkte |ečháʔuͅ| I would appreciate it if everyone so inclined would respond off-list to let me know whether they can read the words properly. I'll then count the yes and no answers and send the tally to the list. It would help if you could use standard subject lines, "Unicode yes" and "Unicode no" (without the quotation marks). It would also be very helpful to know what email programs you used in your attempt. (I know that Web mail clients sometimes have trouble with Unicode.) Thanks, Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri Feb 11 22:29:23 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:29:23 -0600 Subject: Unicode (second try) Message-ID: Several people have already kindly responded: for none of them was my message fully readable, and for none were the discrepancies the same. So much for my naivete! I'm trying again, having figured out how to change my the character encoding for my outgoing mail to Unicode (UTF-8). (Jan Ullrich set his mail program to the character encoding UTF-8 for incoming mail, which should work for those who can control the way their incoming messages are displayed.) If this looks better to you than my first attempt, please let me know. My apologies for cluttering up your mailboxes, but I do think it's important to make a stab at using Unicode. In the long run, I think we'll all be using it by default (and it'll be much easier!) I /do/ appreciate all your contributions. Alan yuwášte yuw[a-acute][s-hacek]te húͅku h[u-acute-hookunder]ku wakhæ̂ͅˑža [wakh[ae-circumflex-hookunder][half-length mark][z-hacek]a] uͅyɔ̂̂ͅͅˑkte [u-hook under][low/mid back rounded vowel-circumflex-hookunder][half-length mark]kte ečháʔų e[c-hacek]h[a-acute][glottal stop][u-hookunder] From rankin at ku.edu Sat Feb 12 16:56:08 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:56:08 -0600 Subject: More on phonetic characters Message-ID: I'm probably telling everybody what they already knew, but I didn't know this, so . . . . I was experimenting with CHARMAP.EXE, the little Microsoft utility that comes with Windows (just search for the file name), and found that if you 'select' a character from any of your fonts, you can 'drag and drop' it quickly and easily into your document. I had given up on this utility because its buttons, 'select' and 'copy' did NOT function with Microsoft Word. But the utility DOES work in the 'drag and drop' function. And it provides a more concise, but not as convenient and well-organized, interface than the Ishida files. There are some circumstances when charmap.exe is quicker and easier than using the 'insert symbol' utility within Word. And 'insert symbol' doesn't allow 'drag and drop' -- you have to follow the button routine. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Sat Feb 12 19:56:37 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:56:37 -0600 Subject: Dinosaur gets a Kaw name (Wichita Eagle-Beacon) Message-ID: Justin and I had a small hand in this. Bob R E L A T E D L I N K S • THE NAMING OF A FOSSIL Kansas lends name to extinct sea lizard The 65-million-year-old species of ocean lizard will be officially named after the state this spring. BY BECCY TANNER The Wichita Eagle It has finally happened. Derby paleontologist Mike Everhart's 10-year quest to name a mosasaur fossil for Kansas has succeeded. Tylosaurus kansasensis will become the official Latin name of a giant sea lizard this spring when the name is published in the Netherlands Journal of Geosciences. Unofficially, this type of mosasaur -- a 25-foot-long sea lizard that lived in the ocean more than 65 million years ago -- will be known as "je-walushka-tanga" (pronounced jay wah-LOOSH-gah DUNG-gah"), meaning "great ocean lizard" in the language of the Kaw or Kanza tribe. "It's nice to name a mosasaur after Kansas -- after all, Kansas is where most of the mosasaurs have been found," said Larry Martin, curator of vertebrate paleontology at the University of Kansas Natural History Museum. "If you were going to pick a fossil that would typify Kansas, a mosasaur is a good choice." Everhart, who serves as the adjunct curator of paleontology at the Sternberg Museum of Natural History in Hays, said he wanted the name of the fossil to reflect Kansas's heritage. "The Indian name just makes the fossil a little more special," Everhart said. "There are hundreds of different kinds of fossils sitting in boxes in all kinds of places. Few of them have a life of their own. The T. rex Sue at the Field Museum (in Chicago) is one that does. I want this one to also come alive in people's imagination." This isn't the first fossil to be named "kansasensis," Everhart said. At least 20 other fossils bear that name, including several clams, a mouse and some trilobites. The new name also touts the state's fossil heritage and how these rolling farm plains were once at the bottom of a 600-foot-deep ocean. Since the late 1860s, the Smoky Hill chalk beds of western Kansas have been known throughout the world for containing fossils dating to the Cretaceous period, nearly 87 million years ago. The mosasaurs, some species of which could grow as long as 45 feet, were among the most terrifying animals of their time. "They ruled the oceans at the end of the age of the dinosaur," Everhart said. "They were a big predator." They were monsters that ate everything in their way, swallowing prey whole. "In Kansas, there were more than a dozen types of mosasaurs," Everhart said. "Worldwide, the number is more than 40." This particular species of mosasaur has been found only in Kansas, he said, and has been unnamed for nearly 140 years. There are 13 known specimens of this type of mosasaur -- nine of which are in the Sternberg Museum's collection in Hays. Anyone can name an unnamed fossil, Everhart said. But a name gains credibility only when it is published in a recognized journal. In his paper, Everhart wrote that the fossil is named after the Kanza Indians, "from which the name of the state... is derived and where all of the known specimens have been collected." The Kanza people originally lived in the Ohio River valley. By the early 1800s, they had moved to what is now the Kansas, or Kaw, River valley to claim a territory that covered roughly two-fifths of modern-day Kansas. In 1873, the tribe was forced to move to Indian Territory, in present-day Oklahoma. Justin McBride, language coordinator for the Kanza Language Project with the Kaw Nation of Oklahoma, said the naming is an honor. "The Kaw language is no longer spoken fluently," he said. "It is easy for mainstream Americans to think that native languages were of lesser importance. But they are every bit as rich as other languages in the world. I think Mike Everhart's wish of going back to the source, going back to 'kansasensis' is a very positive move." -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: state+ADs-kw+AD0-center6+ADs-c2+AD0-state+ADs-c3+AD0-state+AF8-homepage+ADs-pos+AD0-center6+ADs-group+AD0-rectangle+ADs-ord+AD0-1108237856102? Type: application/octet-stream Size: 29652 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: spacer.gif Type: image/gif Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available URL: From munro at ucla.edu Sat Feb 12 20:03:27 2005 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:03:27 -0800 Subject: Dinosaur gets a Kaw name (Wichita Eagle-Beacon) In-Reply-To: <001301c5113d$113af180$07b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Kind of too bad that the name as they write it has DUNG in it....:) But this is great! Congratulations! Pam R. Rankin wrote: > Justin and I had a small hand in this. Bob > > > > R E L A T E D L I N K S > • THE NAMING OF A FOSSIL > > > > > Kansas lends name to extinct sea lizard > > The 65-million-year-old species of ocean lizard will be > officially named after the state this spring. > > BY BECCY TANNER > > The Wichita Eagle > > > It has finally happened. > > Derby paleontologist Mike Everhart's 10-year quest to name a > mosasaur fossil for Kansas has succeeded. > > Tylosaurus kansasensis will become the official Latin name of a > giant sea lizard this spring when the name is published in the > Netherlands Journal of Geosciences. > > Unofficially, this type of mosasaur -- a 25-foot-long sea lizard > that lived in the ocean more than 65 million years ago -- will be > known as "je-walushka-tanga" (pronounced jay wah-LOOSH-gah DUNG-gah"), > meaning "great ocean lizard" in the language of the Kaw or Kanza tribe. > > "It's nice to name a mosasaur after Kansas -- after all, Kansas > is where most of the mosasaurs have been found," said Larry Martin, > curator of vertebrate paleontology at the University of Kansas Natural > History Museum. > > "If you were going to pick a fossil that would typify Kansas, a > mosasaur is a good choice." > > Everhart, who serves as the adjunct curator of paleontology at > the Sternberg Museum of Natural History in Hays, said he wanted the > name of the fossil to reflect Kansas's heritage. > > "The Indian name just makes the fossil a little more special," > Everhart said. "There are hundreds of different kinds of fossils > sitting in boxes in all kinds of places. Few of them have a life of > their own. The T. rex Sue at the Field Museum (in Chicago) is one that > does. I want this one to also come alive in people's imagination." > > This isn't the first fossil to be named "kansasensis," Everhart > said. > > At least 20 other fossils bear that name, including several > clams, a mouse and some trilobites. > > The new name also touts the state's fossil heritage and how these > rolling farm plains were once at the bottom of a 600-foot-deep ocean. > > Since the late 1860s, the Smoky Hill chalk beds of western Kansas > have been known throughout the world for containing fossils dating to > the Cretaceous period, nearly 87 million years ago. > > The mosasaurs, some species of which could grow as long as 45 > feet, were among the most terrifying animals of their time. > > "They ruled the oceans at the end of the age of the dinosaur," > Everhart said. "They were a big predator." > > They were monsters that ate everything in their way, swallowing > prey whole. > > "In Kansas, there were more than a dozen types of mosasaurs," > Everhart said. "Worldwide, the number is more than 40." > > This particular species of mosasaur has been found only in > Kansas, he said, and has been unnamed for nearly 140 years. There are > 13 known specimens of this type of mosasaur -- nine of which are in > the Sternberg Museum's collection in Hays. > > Anyone can name an unnamed fossil, Everhart said. But a name > gains credibility only when it is published in a recognized journal. > > In his paper, Everhart wrote that the fossil is named after the > Kanza Indians, "from which the name of the state... is derived and > where all of the known specimens have been collected." > > The Kanza people originally lived in the Ohio River valley. By > the early 1800s, they had moved to what is now the Kansas, or Kaw, > River valley to claim a territory that covered roughly two-fifths of > modern-day Kansas. > > In 1873, the tribe was forced to move to Indian Territory, in > present-day Oklahoma. > > Justin McBride, language coordinator for the Kanza Language > Project with the Kaw Nation of Oklahoma, said the naming is an honor. > > "The Kaw language is no longer spoken fluently," he said. "It is > easy for mainstream Americans to think that native languages were of > lesser importance. But they are every bit as rich as other languages > in the world. I think Mike Everhart's wish of going back to the > source, going back to 'kansasensis' is a very positive move." > > -- Pamela Munro, Professor, Linguistics, UCLA UCLA Box 951543 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/munro/munro.htm From rankin at ku.edu Sun Feb 13 15:21:22 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:21:22 -0600 Subject: Dinosaur gets a Kaw name (Wichita Eagle-Beacon) Message-ID: Heh, heh -- yeah, those are the risks you run when 'sea' is 'je' and 'dung' is 'zhe'. Nice minimal pair. Maybe the museum has a dinosaur coprolite that we can name 'zhe tanga'? Bob ----- Original Message ----- > Kind of too bad that the name as they write it has > DUNG in it....:) From cstelfer at ucalgary.ca Tue Feb 15 22:58:34 2005 From: cstelfer at ucalgary.ca (cstelfer at ucalgary.ca) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:58:34 -0700 Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -And a dictionary or two wouldn't go amiss either. I'm especially > interested in the impact that Cree has had on Stoney. > > Anthony I responded to this comment earlier by saying that I didn't think Cree had had any impact on Stoney, however, I forgot that the Paul Band reserves are mixed with both Cree and Stoney people. Unfortunately to my knowledge Stoney is not really spoken there anymore, which is not surprising considering the linguistic pressures exerted by both English and Cree. The Northern Stoney data I have is from the Alexis Band, so it has no Cree influence. If there was any Cree influence on the Paul Band dialect of Stoney, I think it would be quite hard to detect it at this point in time. Corey. > >>>> rankin at ku.edu 25/01/2005 16:01:39 >>> >> I was talking with John Newman at Edmonton in October >> and he felt that the two major Stoney dialect clusters >> might be different in this regard. > >> I guess I should always distinguish between South Stoney (Morley, > Eden > Valley and Big Horn reserves) and North Stoney (Alexis and Paul bands). > > The South Stoneys have apparently lost the glottalized set of stops > and > collapsed them with the aspirated series, but the Northern group have > not. > > And the South group has those neat pharyngeals. . . . > > Newman said the two groups migrated to their current locations in > southern and central Alberta via very different routes, suggesting > some > significant time depth between the dialects. Gee, a coupla good > reference grammars would be a good thing! :-) Bob > > ----------------------------------------------------- > This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions > presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent > those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended > recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and > all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, > distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the > intended recipient. > > The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to > identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor > content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access > business communications during staff absence. > > Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments > are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to > ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge > Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. > <<<>>> > From rankin at ku.edu Tue Feb 15 23:46:31 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:46:31 -0600 Subject: Siouan/Caddoan linguistics conference--2005. Message-ID: Let me reiterate what I guess I wasn't totally clear about before. Our plans at present are to hold the SCLC at the Kaw Tribal complex in Kaw City, Oklahoma on June 17, 18 and the morning of the 19th. (That's Friday, Saturday and Sunday.) We have not yet reserved rooms in Ponca City, OK motels for this and will announce it here on the list when we do. If anything catastrophic gets in the way (for example of the Conoco Oil Co. books all the rooms in town that weekend), we will also let everyone know immediately. I'll post when I have more. There'll be a "Call for Papers" later in the Spring, but, as usual, we'll only expect some sort of title and info on how much time you'll need, etc. This was the weekend that seemed to be best for everyone who responded. We hope that this will be the weekend that the Osages skip in their dance schedule. That way, any of them who wish may attend our meetings and any linguists wishing to attend one or more of the Osages dances on adjacent weekends may plan to come for the SCLC a week early or late and see the dancing too More later as things develop.. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 16 06:38:06 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:38:06 -0700 Subject: Dakota Dialects In-Reply-To: <52BA675BF5A226458392EB21207B522A014E2DD2@iu-mssg-mbx06.exchange.iu.edu> Message-ID: I've been meaning to get back to the issue of Dakota dialects, because I thought that I'd done a rather poor job of the subject, mainly by wading in without rereading any of the relevant materials. I wanted to particularly thank Doug Parks for clarifying and correcting various points. On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Parks, Douglas R. wrote: > Allow me to clarify several points that have been under discussion. > > (1) The Yanktonai, like the Yanktons, identify themselves in English as > "Dakotas." There is no historical evidence that the Yanktonai ever > identified themselves as nakhota, and I have never heard a contemporary > speaker (and here I mean on all the five reservations where the > subdialects are spoken) self-identify using an n. Cook in 1880-82 > similarly recorded the term with an initial d. The history of the > fallacy that Yanktonais referred to themselves with an n is given in > DeMallie's and my paper, pp. 242-48. Having relocating my copy of the paper - it took me a while to realize that I had an actual copy of the journal volume - I see that I had indeed forgotten the major section of this paper that recaps and summarizes the history of the understanding of Dakota dialects, which would have answered my questions on this subject. (See a subsequent posting for details.) > (2) There actually has been a fair amount of work accomplished on > Yanktonai, although unpublished. Based on work with speakers from > Standing Rock and Devil's Lake, but including the other communities, > I've compiled a reasonably extensive dictionary database, and Ray has > recorded and transcribed a modest collection of texts. (See HNAI > 13(1):98.) I feel that I owe Doug an apology for overlooking this. In fact, now that I am reminded of it, work on Yanktonai is mentioned at the AISRI Web site, e.g., http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri/projects/research.html. What I seem remember now is that at one point there were some sound files that included words in Yanktonai. > (3) For the Ochethi Shakowin, see DeMallie (HNAI 13(2):735-48). Next order of business! I've put off ordering this for various reasons, but that clearly can't go on. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 16 08:19:01 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:19:01 -0700 Subject: Dakota Dialects In-Reply-To: <52BA675BF5A226458392EB21207B522A014E2DD2@iu-mssg-mbx06.exchange.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Parks, Douglas R. wrote: > ... The history of the fallacy that Yanktonais referred to themselves > with an n is given in DeMallie's and my paper, pp. 242-48. James Howard > is the 20th century promoter of the use of the n form, and his > assertions have been accepted by many, particularly younger people who > like the "neat" classification that it provides. JEK: > Which would indicate that the canonicalization of the d-n-l division was > subsequent to Riggs. I wonder what the history of it was? From: Parks, Douglas R. and Raymond DeMallie. 1992. Sioux, Assiniboine, and Stoney Dialects: A Classification. Anthropological Linguistics 34, Nos. 1-4, Special Issue: Florence M. Voegelin Mwemorial Volume, pp. 233-255. This is a summary of the survey that Parks & DeMallie present, pp. 234-240. Their classificaiton of Dakota dialects is inserted first for reference. Parks & DeMallie Santee- Yankton- Teton Assiniboine Stoney (1992:251) Sisseton Yanktonai Gallatin Eastern Yankton Teton Assiniboine (1836:124) Dahcota The Pond, Riggs, et al., mission(s) and associated linguistic work began in 1834. Riggs 1) IsaNti IhaNktoNwaN TitoNwaN ----- (1852:viii-ix) 2) SisitoNwaN (Lake Traverse) Riggs discusses some subdialects of IsaNti and distinguishes it generally from the variety of SisitoNwaN spoken at Lake Traverse. Supressing these distinctions arising from his closer study of Santee, he distinguishes three dialects, but without reference to Assiniboine and Stoney. In other words, up to this point his analysis concurs with that of Gallatin. Riggs (1893:188) mentions the Assiniboine dialect, saying "Their language differs less from the Dakota in general, than the dialects of the Dakota do from each other. ... The Assiniboin are said to have broken off from the Pine Shooters (Wazikute), a branch of the IhaNktoNwaNna." From these two remarks, the first of which is misinformed and the second of which is unattributed, one might deduce, albeit falsely, that Assiniboine is much like Yanktonais, which would presumably be much like Yankton, with Assiniboine differing less from Yankton than Yankton differed from Santee, etc. In spite of this, the early Siouanists followed Gallatin's lead and listed four dialects of Dakota. Dorsey (1885:919) Santee Yankton Teton Assiniboine Boas & Swanton Santee Yankton Teton Assiniboine (1911:879) Problems crept in with Lowie's Indians of the Plains. Lowie evidently made the deductions that Riggs (1893) supports. Lowie (1954:8) Eastern Central Western (Dakota) (Nakota) (Lakota) (var. Assiniboine) Howard's work on the Dakota separates Assiniboine back out, but retains the erronious characterization of Yankton(-Yanktonais) as like Assiniboine. Howard Dakota *Nakota Lakota Nakoda (1960:249, n. 2; (Santee) (Yankton) (Teton) (Assiniboine) 1966:4) Howard's scheme in particular, caught the attention of anthropologists, and was widely cited thereafter. Hassrick (1964:6), Powers (1972:7, 1977:11), Schusky (1975:3), Grobsmith (1981:3), Elias (1988:xiii), Biolsi (1992:4) I thought it might be interesting to see what the Siouan comparativists thought, since their fell into this time range. Interestingly, they actually say very little, perhaps sensing that the issue was a vexed one. Wolff Santee Teton (1950 I:63, 1951) Matthews (1958:5-6) Santee Yankton Teton Matthews (1959:253) Santee Teton Assiniboine - Montana - Canada Wolff's list is certainly not intended to be complete. Matthews seems implicitly to follow Lowie or Howard, but comments in his kinship term study that Canadian Assiniboine (perhaps meaning Stoney) differs dialectally from Montana Assiniboine. Incidentally, Alexander Lesser's 1958 dissertation on Siouan Kinship finds it convenient to discuss Dakotan terminology in terms of Santee, Yankton, Teton, and Assiniboine lists, and he finds some diffferences between his two Assiniboine authorities, Morgan and Lowie, that seem to come down to a difference between Assiniboine and Stoney. At last certain forms are listed specifically as Stoney. Lesser says of the Assiniboine "according to Lowie, their speech must be considered at least a major dialect of Dakota, differing from Santee and Teton perhaps to a greater degree than these dialects differ amongst themselves." (Lesser 1958:14) It's not clear what work of Lowie's he is citing, but the implication is that it is Lowie's 1910 monograph The Assiniboine. So, it appears that Lowie's perceptions of Nakota are based on Assiniboine, and that it is Yankton-Yanktonais that is being overlooked. Returning to the presentation in Parks & DeMallie, we join the company of the more recent Siouanists: Chafe (1973:1179) Santee Yankton Teton (Dakota proper) & Assin. (Lakota) (Nakota) Chafe follows Lowie, essentially, but indicates specifically that there is a Canadian variety of Assiniboine called Stoney. At this point more extensive field experience, close study of the earlier materials, and, I suspect, rumors of the Dakota Dialect Survey's findings, begin to assert themselves again in the Siouanist community. Shaw, for example, distinguishes essentially the same scheme as Parks & DeMallie. Shaw Santee Yankton Teton Assiniboine Stoney (1976:4-5) - MdewaNtuNwaN - WaxpetuNwaN Shaw's Santee subdialects are not intended to be exhaustive, I think. Rood Santee Yankton Teton Yanktonai Assiniboine Stoney (1979:236) Rood's list is again the modern one, but with Yanktonai retained as separate, probably on the strength of the original comments in Riggs. The most complete study, and the best documented linguistically (and historiographically) is Parks & DeMallie 1992. However, Riggs and Shaw provide a certain number of comparative forms, too. From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Wed Feb 16 09:46:02 2005 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:46:02 +0000 Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney. Message-ID: What about Stoney items such as the Cree-derived word meaning 'money'? Anthony >>> cstelfer at ucalgary.ca 15/02/2005 22:58:34 >>> > -And a dictionary or two wouldn't go amiss either. I'm especially > interested in the impact that Cree has had on Stoney. > > Anthony I responded to this comment earlier by saying that I didn't think Cree had had any impact on Stoney, however, I forgot that the Paul Band reserves are mixed with both Cree and Stoney people. Unfortunately to my knowledge Stoney is not really spoken there anymore, which is not surprising considering the linguistic pressures exerted by both English and Cree. The Northern Stoney data I have is from the Alexis Band, so it has no Cree influence. If there was any Cree influence on the Paul Band dialect of Stoney, I think it would be quite hard to detect it at this point in time. Corey. > >>>> rankin at ku.edu 25/01/2005 16:01:39 >>> >> I was talking with John Newman at Edmonton in October >> and he felt that the two major Stoney dialect clusters >> might be different in this regard. > >> I guess I should always distinguish between South Stoney (Morley, > Eden > Valley and Big Horn reserves) and North Stoney (Alexis and Paul bands). > > The South Stoneys have apparently lost the glottalized set of stops > and > collapsed them with the aspirated series, but the Northern group have > not. > > And the South group has those neat pharyngeals. . . . > > Newman said the two groups migrated to their current locations in > southern and central Alberta via very different routes, suggesting > some > significant time depth between the dialects. Gee, a coupla good > reference grammars would be a good thing! :-) Bob > > ----------------------------------------------------- > This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions > presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent > those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended > recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and > all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, > distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the > intended recipient. > > The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to > identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor > content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access > business communications during staff absence. > > Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments > are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to > ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge > Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. > <<<>>> > From parksd at indiana.edu Wed Feb 16 16:15:18 2005 From: parksd at indiana.edu (Parks, Douglas R.) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:15:18 -0500 Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney. Message-ID: Maybe you people are too new to the field, but Allan Taylor addressed this very issue in a paper delivered at the AAA ca. 1980. It isn't published, so perhaps John can get a copy of it from Allan and maybe scan it for web "publication." Allan cites data, not hunches. Doug __________________________________________________ Douglas R. Parks Professor of Anthropology Associate Director, American Indian Studies Research Institute Indiana University 422 North Indiana Avenue Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone 812.855.4123 Fax 812.855.7529 || E-mail parksd at indiana.edu || AISRI web site http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Grant Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 4:46 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Assiniboine and Stoney. What about Stoney items such as the Cree-derived word meaning 'money'? Anthony >>> cstelfer at ucalgary.ca 15/02/2005 22:58:34 >>> > -And a dictionary or two wouldn't go amiss either. I'm especially > interested in the impact that Cree has had on Stoney. > > Anthony I responded to this comment earlier by saying that I didn't think Cree had had any impact on Stoney, however, I forgot that the Paul Band reserves are mixed with both Cree and Stoney people. Unfortunately to my knowledge Stoney is not really spoken there anymore, which is not surprising considering the linguistic pressures exerted by both English and Cree. The Northern Stoney data I have is from the Alexis Band, so it has no Cree influence. If there was any Cree influence on the Paul Band dialect of Stoney, I think it would be quite hard to detect it at this point in time. Corey. > >>>> rankin at ku.edu 25/01/2005 16:01:39 >>> >> I was talking with John Newman at Edmonton in October >> and he felt that the two major Stoney dialect clusters >> might be different in this regard. > >> I guess I should always distinguish between South Stoney (Morley, > Eden > Valley and Big Horn reserves) and North Stoney (Alexis and Paul bands). > > The South Stoneys have apparently lost the glottalized set of stops > and > collapsed them with the aspirated series, but the Northern group have > not. > > And the South group has those neat pharyngeals. . . . > > Newman said the two groups migrated to their current locations in > southern and central Alberta via very different routes, suggesting > some > significant time depth between the dialects. Gee, a coupla good > reference grammars would be a good thing! :-) Bob > > ----------------------------------------------------- > This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions > presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent > those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended > recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and > all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, > distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the > intended recipient. > > The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to > identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor > content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access > business communications during staff absence. > > Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments > are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to > ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge > Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. > <<<>>> > From mary.marino at usask.ca Wed Feb 16 16:39:47 2005 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:39:47 -0600 Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney. Message-ID: Thanks, Doug. I have seen references to this paper, and if Alan or John, or someone else, could get it into circulation it would be much appreciated. Mary At 10:15 AM 2/16/2005, you wrote: >Maybe you people are too new to the field, but Allan Taylor addressed >this very issue in a paper delivered at the AAA ca. 1980. It isn't >published, so perhaps John can get a copy of it from Allan and maybe >scan it for web "publication." Allan cites data, not hunches. > >Doug > >__________________________________________________ > >Douglas R. Parks >Professor of Anthropology >Associate Director, American Indian Studies Research Institute >Indiana University >422 North Indiana Avenue >Bloomington, IN 47408 > >Phone 812.855.4123 >Fax 812.855.7529 || E-mail parksd at indiana.edu || AISRI web site >http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu >[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Grant >Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 4:46 AM >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: RE: Assiniboine and Stoney. > >What about Stoney items such as the Cree-derived word meaning 'money'? > >Anthony > > >>> cstelfer at ucalgary.ca 15/02/2005 22:58:34 >>> > > -And a dictionary or two wouldn't go amiss either. I'm especially > > interested in the impact that Cree has had on Stoney. > > > > Anthony > >I responded to this comment earlier by saying that I didn't think Cree >had >had any impact on Stoney, however, I forgot that the Paul Band >reserves >are mixed with both Cree and Stoney people. Unfortunately to my >knowledge >Stoney is not really spoken there anymore, which is not surprising >considering the linguistic pressures exerted by both English and Cree. > >The Northern Stoney data I have is from the Alexis Band, so it has no >Cree >influence. If there was any Cree influence on the Paul Band dialect >of >Stoney, I think it would be quite hard to detect it at this point in >time. > >Corey. > > > > > > > >>>> rankin at ku.edu 25/01/2005 16:01:39 >>> > >> I was talking with John Newman at Edmonton in October > >> and he felt that the two major Stoney dialect clusters > >> might be different in this regard. > > > >> I guess I should always distinguish between South Stoney (Morley, > > Eden > > Valley and Big Horn reserves) and North Stoney (Alexis and Paul >bands). > > > > The South Stoneys have apparently lost the glottalized set of stops > > and > > collapsed them with the aspirated series, but the Northern group >have > > not. > > > > And the South group has those neat pharyngeals. . . . > > > > Newman said the two groups migrated to their current locations in > > southern and central Alberta via very different routes, suggesting > > some > > significant time depth between the dialects. Gee, a coupla good > > reference grammars would be a good thing! :-) Bob > > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely >for > > the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or >opinions > > presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily >represent > > those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the >intended > > recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete >it and > > all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, >disclose, > > distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not >the > > intended recipient. > > > > The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to > > identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively >monitor > > content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to >access > > business communications during staff absence. > > > > Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any >attachments > > are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient >to > > ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by >Edge > > Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. > > <<<>>> > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 16 18:59:19 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:59:19 -0700 Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney. In-Reply-To: <52BA675BF5A226458392EB21207B522A966B81@iu-mssg-mbx06.exchange.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Parks, Douglas R. wrote: > Maybe you people are too new to the field, but Allan Taylor addressed > this very issue in a paper delivered at the AAA ca. 1980. It isn't > published, so perhaps John can get a copy of it from Allan and maybe > scan it for web "publication." Allan cites data, not hunches. It came out in the Siouan and Caddoan Newsletter that David Rood used to send out. I actually looked for my copy of it last night, but I haven't located it yet. I'll keep looking. I don't suppose it's one John Boyle has on file? I remember Allan addressed the issue of Cree influence, and I think he might have been favorable, but I don't recall details. Presumably any Cree influence antedated the present reserve situations. From parksd at indiana.edu Wed Feb 16 19:35:00 2005 From: parksd at indiana.edu (Parks, Douglas R.) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:35:00 -0500 Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney. Message-ID: John, Thanks for the reminder---I'd forgotten that it was published. I have a complete set of Siouan Newsletters at home and can provide a citation in the morning. Yes, Allan felt (and probably still does) that Stoney---both dialects, as I recall---showed definite Cree influence. In fact, Assiniboine, too, has pretty clearly been influenced by Cree. And it's not surprising since Crees and Assiniboines have been closely associated historically, with intermarriage common, and today (actually, late 20th century) many Assiniboines, especially in Canada, speak Cree as well as A. Doug __________________________________________________ Douglas R. Parks Professor of Anthropology Associate Director, American Indian Studies Research Institute Indiana University 422 North Indiana Avenue Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone 812.855.4123 Fax 812.855.7529 || E-mail parksd at indiana.edu || AISRI web site http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Koontz John E Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 1:59 PM To: Siouan List Subject: RE: Assiniboine and Stoney. On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Parks, Douglas R. wrote: > Maybe you people are too new to the field, but Allan Taylor addressed > this very issue in a paper delivered at the AAA ca. 1980. It isn't > published, so perhaps John can get a copy of it from Allan and maybe > scan it for web "publication." Allan cites data, not hunches. It came out in the Siouan and Caddoan Newsletter that David Rood used to send out. I actually looked for my copy of it last night, but I haven't located it yet. I'll keep looking. I don't suppose it's one John Boyle has on file? I remember Allan addressed the issue of Cree influence, and I think he might have been favorable, but I don't recall details. Presumably any Cree influence antedated the present reserve situations. From mckay020 at umn.edu Wed Feb 16 21:26:22 2005 From: mckay020 at umn.edu (cantemaza) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:26:22 -0600 Subject: Dakota Dialects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dr. Parks, How can I get a copy of this publication"Sioux, Assiniboine, and Stoney Dialects: A Classification"? Thanks much. Also, it is intersting when visitng with speakers on this subject. I had a long conversation with an elder at the Lake Andes Dakota Language. She spoke Ihanktunwan Dakota and I spoke Bdewakantunwan Dakota and we talked about the differences in the words and where we come from. She said they considered themselves to be Dakotaand they spoke Dakota, not Nakota or Nakoda. Also, I had a chance to speak briefly with a woman from Fort Belknap Reservation and she said she was Nakota. We swapped emails, and I said Pidamayaye do (thank you). She asked about four times, "Ake! (again!)" because she didn't know what I was saying. Then I said it slowly and then she said "Ohhh, OK, you mean Pinamayaye." -Cantemaza de miye do. (Neil McKay) University of Minnesota Dakota Language Dept. Koontz John E wrote: >On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Parks, Douglas R. wrote: > > >>... The history of the fallacy that Yanktonais referred to themselves >>with an n is given in DeMallie's and my paper, pp. 242-48. James Howard >>is the 20th century promoter of the use of the n form, and his >>assertions have been accepted by many, particularly younger people who >>like the "neat" classification that it provides. >> >> > >JEK: > > > >>Which would indicate that the canonicalization of the d-n-l division was >>subsequent to Riggs. I wonder what the history of it was? >> >> > >From: > >Parks, Douglas R. and Raymond DeMallie. 1992. Sioux, Assiniboine, and >Stoney Dialects: A Classification. Anthropological Linguistics 34, Nos. >1-4, Special Issue: Florence M. Voegelin Mwemorial Volume, pp. 233-255. > >This is a summary of the survey that Parks & DeMallie present, pp. >234-240. Their classificaiton of Dakota dialects is inserted first for >reference. > >Parks & DeMallie Santee- Yankton- Teton Assiniboine Stoney >(1992:251) Sisseton Yanktonai > > > >Gallatin Eastern Yankton Teton Assiniboine >(1836:124) Dahcota > >The Pond, Riggs, et al., mission(s) and associated linguistic work began >in 1834. > >Riggs 1) IsaNti IhaNktoNwaN TitoNwaN ----- >(1852:viii-ix) 2) SisitoNwaN > (Lake Traverse) > >Riggs discusses some subdialects of IsaNti and distinguishes it generally >from the variety of SisitoNwaN spoken at Lake Traverse. Supressing these >distinctions arising from his closer study of Santee, he distinguishes >three dialects, but without reference to Assiniboine and Stoney. In other >words, up to this point his analysis concurs with that of Gallatin. > >Riggs (1893:188) mentions the Assiniboine dialect, saying "Their language >differs less from the Dakota in general, than the dialects of the Dakota >do from each other. ... The Assiniboin are said to have broken off from >the Pine Shooters (Wazikute), a branch of the IhaNktoNwaNna." From these >two remarks, the first of which is misinformed and the second of which is >unattributed, one might deduce, albeit falsely, that Assiniboine is much >like Yanktonais, which would presumably be much like Yankton, with >Assiniboine differing less from Yankton than Yankton differed from Santee, >etc. > >In spite of this, the early Siouanists followed Gallatin's lead and listed >four dialects of Dakota. > >Dorsey (1885:919) Santee Yankton Teton Assiniboine > >Boas & Swanton Santee Yankton Teton Assiniboine >(1911:879) > >Problems crept in with Lowie's Indians of the Plains. Lowie evidently >made the deductions that Riggs (1893) supports. > >Lowie (1954:8) Eastern Central Western > (Dakota) (Nakota) (Lakota) > (var. Assiniboine) > >Howard's work on the Dakota separates Assiniboine back out, but retains >the erronious characterization of Yankton(-Yanktonais) as like >Assiniboine. > >Howard Dakota *Nakota Lakota Nakoda >(1960:249, n. 2; (Santee) (Yankton) (Teton) (Assiniboine) >1966:4) > >Howard's scheme in particular, caught the attention of anthropologists, >and was widely cited thereafter. > >Hassrick (1964:6), Powers (1972:7, 1977:11), Schusky (1975:3), Grobsmith >(1981:3), Elias (1988:xiii), Biolsi (1992:4) > >I thought it might be interesting to see what the Siouan comparativists >thought, since their fell into this time range. Interestingly, they >actually say very little, perhaps sensing that the issue was a vexed one. > >Wolff Santee Teton >(1950 I:63, 1951) > >Matthews (1958:5-6) Santee Yankton Teton >Matthews (1959:253) Santee Teton Assiniboine > - Montana > - Canada > >Wolff's list is certainly not intended to be complete. Matthews seems >implicitly to follow Lowie or Howard, but comments in his kinship term >study that Canadian Assiniboine (perhaps meaning Stoney) differs >dialectally from Montana Assiniboine. > >Incidentally, Alexander Lesser's 1958 dissertation on Siouan Kinship finds >it convenient to discuss Dakotan terminology in terms of Santee, Yankton, >Teton, and Assiniboine lists, and he finds some diffferences between his >two Assiniboine authorities, Morgan and Lowie, that seem to come down to a >difference between Assiniboine and Stoney. At last certain forms are >listed specifically as Stoney. > >Lesser says of the Assiniboine "according to Lowie, their speech must be >considered at least a major dialect of Dakota, differing from Santee and >Teton perhaps to a greater degree than these dialects differ amongst >themselves." (Lesser 1958:14) It's not clear what work of Lowie's he is >citing, but the implication is that it is Lowie's 1910 monograph The >Assiniboine. So, it appears that Lowie's perceptions of Nakota are based >on Assiniboine, and that it is Yankton-Yanktonais that is being >overlooked. > >Returning to the presentation in Parks & DeMallie, we join the company of >the more recent Siouanists: > >Chafe (1973:1179) Santee Yankton Teton > (Dakota proper) & Assin. (Lakota) > (Nakota) > >Chafe follows Lowie, essentially, but indicates specifically that there is >a Canadian variety of Assiniboine called Stoney. > >At this point more extensive field experience, close study of the earlier >materials, and, I suspect, rumors of the Dakota Dialect Survey's findings, >begin to assert themselves again in the Siouanist community. Shaw, for >example, distinguishes essentially the same scheme as Parks & DeMallie. > >Shaw Santee Yankton Teton Assiniboine Stoney >(1976:4-5) - MdewaNtuNwaN > - WaxpetuNwaN > >Shaw's Santee subdialects are not intended to be exhaustive, I think. > >Rood Santee Yankton Teton Yanktonai Assiniboine Stoney >(1979:236) > >Rood's list is again the modern one, but with Yanktonai retained as >separate, probably on the strength of the original comments in Riggs. > >The most complete study, and the best documented linguistically (and >historiographically) is Parks & DeMallie 1992. However, Riggs and Shaw >provide a certain number of comparative forms, too. > > > >. > > > From parksd at indiana.edu Thu Feb 17 18:07:49 2005 From: parksd at indiana.edu (Parks, Douglas R.) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:07:49 -0500 Subject: Taylor reference Message-ID: The reference to Allan Taylor's paper is: "Variation in Canadian Assiniboine" in Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Newsletter, no. 4 (June 1981), pp. 9-16. __________________________________________________ Douglas R. Parks Professor of Anthropology Associate Director, American Indian Studies Research Institute Indiana University 422 North Indiana Avenue Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone 812.855.4123 Fax 812.855.7529 || E-mail parksd at indiana.edu || AISRI web site http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lcumberl at indiana.edu Thu Feb 17 20:17:40 2005 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:17:40 -0500 Subject: Taylor reference In-Reply-To: <52BA675BF5A226458392EB21207B522A966B8E@iu-mssg-mbx06.exchange.iu.edu> Message-ID: Thanks - It turns out I have a copy already. -L Quoting "Parks, Douglas R." : > The reference to Allan Taylor's paper is: > > "Variation in Canadian Assiniboine" in Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics > Newsletter, no. 4 (June 1981), pp. 9-16. > > __________________________________________________ > > Douglas R. Parks > Professor of Anthropology > Associate Director, American Indian Studies Research Institute > Indiana University > 422 North Indiana Avenue > Bloomington, IN 47408 > > Phone 812.855.4123 > Fax 812.855.7529 || E-mail parksd at indiana.edu > || AISRI web site > http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri > > > From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Fri Feb 18 09:04:37 2005 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:04:37 +0000 Subject: Taylor reference Message-ID: How can one get a copy of this? The Parks and DeMallie article is no problem for me 9Doug very kindly sent me an offprint), but Allan's papers on Assiniboine (I believe there's also one of his on Assiniboine in a Canadian anthropology journal) are, um, rather hard to get hold of over here in Britain. Anthony >>> lcumberl at indiana.edu 17/02/2005 20:17:40 >>> Thanks - It turns out I have a copy already. -L Quoting "Parks, Douglas R." : > The reference to Allan Taylor's paper is: > > "Variation in Canadian Assiniboine" in Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics > Newsletter, no. 4 (June 1981), pp. 9-16. > > __________________________________________________ > > Douglas R. Parks > Professor of Anthropology > Associate Director, American Indian Studies Research Institute > Indiana University > 422 North Indiana Avenue > Bloomington, IN 47408 > > Phone 812.855.4123 > Fax 812.855.7529 || E-mail parksd at indiana.edu > || AISRI web site > http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri > > > ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From lcumberl at indiana.edu Fri Feb 18 15:33:00 2005 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:33:00 -0500 Subject: Taylor reference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I could scan my copy as .jpg (and if you want, save the .jpg's as full-size pages in Word), if no one has a better suggestion. I would have to send each page as a separate attachment. Linda Quoting Anthony Grant : > How can one get a copy of this? The Parks and DeMallie article is no > problem for me 9Doug very kindly sent me an offprint), but Allan's > papers on Assiniboine (I believe there's also one of his on Assiniboine > in a Canadian anthropology journal) are, um, rather hard to get hold of > over here in Britain. > > Anthony > > >>> lcumberl at indiana.edu 17/02/2005 20:17:40 >>> > Thanks - It turns out I have a copy already. -L > > Quoting "Parks, Douglas R." : > > > The reference to Allan Taylor's paper is: > > > > "Variation in Canadian Assiniboine" in Siouan and Caddoan > Linguistics > > Newsletter, no. 4 (June 1981), pp. 9-16. > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Douglas R. Parks > > Professor of Anthropology > > Associate Director, American Indian Studies Research Institute > > Indiana University > > 422 North Indiana Avenue > > Bloomington, IN 47408 > > > > Phone 812.855.4123 > > Fax 812.855.7529 || E-mail parksd at indiana.edu > > || AISRI web site > > http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri From are2 at buffalo.edu Fri Feb 18 16:07:21 2005 From: are2 at buffalo.edu (are2 at buffalo.edu) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:07:21 -0500 Subject: Taylor reference In-Reply-To: <1108740780.42160aace02ae@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: If you scan it and send it to me, I could post it at the SACC website (which I need to update soon anyway). That way it'd be more accessible to everyone and you wouldn't have to keep sending it. I'd send the exact link to the list as soon as it's up. It'd be nicer if say someone had an electronic version of the text already to post (smaller file size), but I don't have a much better solution. Best regards, Ardis Quoting lcumberl at indiana.edu: > I could scan my copy as .jpg (and if you want, save the .jpg's as > full-size > pages in Word), if no one has a better suggestion. I would have to > send each > page as a separate attachment. > > Linda > > Quoting Anthony Grant : > > > How can one get a copy of this? The Parks and DeMallie article is > no > > problem for me 9Doug very kindly sent me an offprint), but Allan's > > papers on Assiniboine (I believe there's also one of his on > Assiniboine > > in a Canadian anthropology journal) are, um, rather hard to get > hold of > > over here in Britain. > > > > Anthony > > > > >>> lcumberl at indiana.edu 17/02/2005 20:17:40 >>> > > Thanks - It turns out I have a copy already. -L > > > > Quoting "Parks, Douglas R." : > > > > > The reference to Allan Taylor's paper is: > > > > > > "Variation in Canadian Assiniboine" in Siouan and Caddoan > > Linguistics > > > Newsletter, no. 4 (June 1981), pp. 9-16. > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > > Douglas R. Parks > > > Professor of Anthropology > > > Associate Director, American Indian Studies Research Institute > > > Indiana University > > > 422 North Indiana Avenue > > > Bloomington, IN 47408 > > > > > > Phone 812.855.4123 > > > Fax 812.855.7529 || E-mail parksd at indiana.edu > > > || AISRI web site > > > http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 18 18:06:49 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:06:49 -0700 Subject: Taylor reference In-Reply-To: <1108740780.42160aace02ae@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 lcumberl at indiana.edu wrote: > I could scan my copy .... I'd recommend also sending a hard copy to John Boyle, who to some extent - he might want to clarify this! - acts as a clearing house on things like this, unpublished or "under published," and maintains a bibliography site, too, at http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/siouan_language.html. From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 22:04:20 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:04:20 -0800 Subject: Biloxi "ko" Message-ID: Hi, I've been looking over Dorsey's dictionary and sample sentences noting a few of the uses of "ko" which is often glossed as a definite article or as 'when'. I came up with a hunch based on some sample sentences I found, one of which I have below for illustration: aNsep noNpa amaNki ko kta = the two standing axes are his. aNsep = ax, noNpa = two, amaNki = dual/plural def. article, ko (simply glossed as ob. 'object'?), kta = his. There are several sentences with 'ko' glossed this way and occuring even with another definite article, in this case 'amaNki.' Thus, my hunch is that 'ko' in this case may be sort of a Japanese 'wa', loosely translated as "as concerns it", thus, 'as concerns the two standing axes, they're his.' Are there any examples of this type of 'ko' particle having such a meaning in other Siouan languages? Thanks, Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sat Feb 19 10:02:35 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 11:02:35 +0100 Subject: ko Message-ID: I would think of Lakota _ko_ [kxo'], a stative verb: to be included; to be counted in; also; as well; too ?? Alfred -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sat Feb 19 18:11:25 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 12:11:25 -0600 Subject: Biloxi "ko" Message-ID: > I've been looking over Dorsey's dictionary and sample > sentences noting a few of the uses of "ko" which is > often glossed as a definite article or as 'when'. I > came up with a hunch based on some sample sentences I > found, one of which I have below for illustration: > aNsep noNpa amaNki ko kta = the two standing axes are > his. aNsep = ax, noNpa = two, amaNki = dual/plural > def. article, ko (simply glossed as ob. 'object'?), > kta = his. > There are several sentences with 'ko' glossed this > way and occuring even with another definite article, > in this case 'amaNki.' Thus, my hunch is that 'ko' > in this case may be sort of a Japanese 'wa', loosely > translated as "as concerns it", thus, 'as concerns > the two standing axes, they're his.' I don't think /amaNki/ is a definite article. It may be partially grammaticalized, but it is a positional verb, etymologically 'lying'. Positional use in demonstrative/locative phrases/clauses is a SE areal feature that is very widespread. The /ko/ is definitely a demonstrative or article of some sort, of course. There are some comparative possibilities, but any reconstructible meaning remains fairly elusive. Crow /ko/ 'nonagentive reference' Crow /ko/ 'that, abstract reference' Hidatsa /ku/ 'that one' Biloxi /ko/ 'demonstrative, various usages' (not very revealing) There is another (or related) */ko:/ in Mississippi Valley Siouan languages, meaning roughly 'that, remote'. Beyond that, you're pretty much on your own, I'm afraid. If I were doing it, I'd extract all examples of sentences with the particle from the BI texts and see what emerges -- but you've probably done that already. Beyond that, you probably want to try to deal with all the demonstratives as a group and see if a system emerges that might have 'pigeon holes' that might help organize the results. Somewhere in the Archives of the Siouan List should be a message with an attachment from me listing the prominent demonstrative cognate sets. Generally a three term system is evident, as in older English: demonstratives THIS, THAT, YON; deictics HERE, THERE, YONDER; and temporals NOW, THEN, YORE. But there are numerous variants, and this schema does not account for differences in detail in the various languages. Your analysis in terms of something like Japanese wa/ga sounds interesting and might work out. . . . Bob From shanwest at shaw.ca Sun Feb 20 00:31:24 2005 From: shanwest at shaw.ca (Shannon West) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:31:24 -0800 Subject: Algonquian List Message-ID: Hi everyone, I've got plans to set up an Algonquian listserver, and I had planned to do this earlier, but I just found out I have to move, so it's on hold until I do that and get my computer set up in the new place. Sorry for the delay. In other news, I've had some email issues lately, and some email is not getting through to me. If you've emailed me about anything, and I've not replied, please accept my apology and resend. Thanks, Shannon West From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 20 00:41:28 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:41:28 -0800 Subject: ko In-Reply-To: <42170EBB.6050307@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: Interesting, that would certainly make sense! Thanks, Dave "Alfred W. T�ting" wrote: I would think of Lakota _ko_ [kxo'], a stative verb: to be included; to be counted in; also; as well; too ?? Alfred __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 20 01:01:36 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 17:01:36 -0800 Subject: Biloxi "ko" In-Reply-To: <001601c516ae$6de6f3e0$1db5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Hi Bob, -- I don't think /amaNki/ is a definite article. It may be partially grammaticalized, but it is a positional verb, etymologically 'lying'. Positional use in demonstrative/locative phrases/clauses is a SE areal feature that is very widespread. -- I thought there was something suspicious about 'amaNki' glossed as a definite article because it definitely looks more like the verb, such as 'maNkiyaN' (reclining object). -- Positional use in demonstrative/locative phrases/clauses is a SE areal feature that is very widespread. -- Good to know. -- you probably want to try to deal with all the demonstratives as a group and see if a system emerges that might have 'pigeon holes' that might help organize the results.-- Yes, I'm still very much in the note-taking process with Biloxi and I'm sure things will become more evident--at least I hope so! Thanks for the info! Dave "R. Rankin" wrote: > I've been looking over Dorsey's dictionary and sample > sentences noting a few of the uses of "ko" which is > often glossed as a definite article or as 'when'. I > came up with a hunch based on some sample sentences I > found, one of which I have below for illustration: > aNsep noNpa amaNki ko kta = the two standing axes are > his. aNsep = ax, noNpa = two, amaNki = dual/plural > def. article, ko (simply glossed as ob. 'object'?), > kta = his. > There are several sentences with 'ko' glossed this > way and occuring even with another definite article, > in this case 'amaNki.' Thus, my hunch is that 'ko' > in this case may be sort of a Japanese 'wa', loosely > translated as "as concerns it", thus, 'as concerns > the two standing axes, they're his.' I don't think /amaNki/ is a definite article. It may be partially grammaticalized, but it is a positional verb, etymologically 'lying'. Positional use in demonstrative/locative phrases/clauses is a SE areal feature that is very widespread. The /ko/ is definitely a demonstrative or article of some sort, of course. There are some comparative possibilities, but any reconstructible meaning remains fairly elusive. Crow /ko/ 'nonagentive reference' Crow /ko/ 'that, abstract reference' Hidatsa /ku/ 'that one' Biloxi /ko/ 'demonstrative, various usages' (not very revealing) There is another (or related) */ko:/ in Mississippi Valley Siouan languages, meaning roughly 'that, remote'. Beyond that, you're pretty much on your own, I'm afraid. If I were doing it, I'd extract all examples of sentences with the particle from the BI texts and see what emerges -- but you've probably done that already. Beyond that, you probably want to try to deal with all the demonstratives as a group and see if a system emerges that might have 'pigeon holes' that might help organize the results. Somewhere in the Archives of the Siouan List should be a message with an attachment from me listing the prominent demonstrative cognate sets. Generally a three term system is evident, as in older English: demonstratives THIS, THAT, YON; deictics HERE, THERE, YONDER; and temporals NOW, THEN, YORE. But there are numerous variants, and this schema does not account for differences in detail in the various languages. Your analysis in terms of something like Japanese wa/ga sounds interesting and might work out. . . . Bob --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Feb 22 17:41:26 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:41:26 -0700 Subject: Biloxi "ko" In-Reply-To: <20050220010136.57751.qmail@web53809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Compare Omaha-Ponca gu, something like 'thither' or 'yonder', presumably related to ga 'that (more remote)', maybe 'yon'. The glossing of demonstratives is a tricky business, and the glosses I'm providing are not necessarily idiomatic or apt in context. The OP set is something like dhe 'this', s^e 'that (near you)', ga 'yon', and, in parallel with these, du, s^u, and gu. S^u is definitely 'toward you' and is regularly compounded with motion verbs, though du and gu occur in the pattern less commonly, too. There's also a locative particle dhu used with dhe in dhedhu. Wes Jones has an article or two in print on the tendency of similar shapes to show up on Siouan languages as both demonstrative and locative pospositions, and the probable non-coincidence of this. You can find variants of the standard Siouan demonstratives *Re (or *re ? or *te ?), *s^e (or *he ?), and *ka with the substituted vowel o or u in many of the Siouan languages, though I don't recall any clear Dakotan examples. Perhaps this results from prepending demonstratives to verbs with the *o-locative. You can find a lot of material on Siouan locatives and positionals in the archives of the Siouan list. Although use of positional verbs (stand/sit/lie/walk) with demonstratives is a Southeastern feature as Bob points out, it's pretty common in Siouan, southeastern or not. It's more or less common in Mandan, Winnebago, and Dhegiha, and, of course, in Biloxi. In Dhegiha the particles in question have become the definite articles, or, rather, some of the definite articles, but still occur regularly with demonstratives. Bob has a published article on Siouan positionals that you should probably track down. Cross-linguistically, if a language has some kind of classifier or shape/positional scheme, it is likely to use them with counting and/or with demonstrative constructions. From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Tue Feb 22 18:00:54 2005 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:00:54 +0000 Subject: Siouan/Caddoan linguistics conference--2005. In-Reply-To: <004401c513b8$956e4830$0ab5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On 15/2/05 11:46 pm, "R. Rankin" wrote: > > Let me reiterate what I guess I wasn't totally clear > about before. Our plans at present are to hold the > SCLC at the Kaw Tribal complex in Kaw City, Oklahoma on > June 17, 18 and the morning of the 19th. (That's > Friday, Saturday and Sunday.) We have not yet reserved > rooms in Ponca City, OK motels for this and will > announce it here on the list when we do. If anything > catastrophic gets in the way (for example of the Conoco > Oil Co. books all the rooms in town that weekend), we > will also let everyone know immediately. I'll post > when I have more. There'll be a "Call for Papers" > later in the Spring, but, as usual, we'll only expect > some sort of title and info on how much time you'll > need, etc. > > This was the weekend that seemed to be best for > everyone who responded. We hope that this will be the > weekend that the Osages skip in their dance schedule. > That way, any of them who wish may attend our meetings > and any linguists wishing to attend one or more of the > Osages dances on adjacent weekends may plan to come for > the SCLC a week early or late and see the dancing too > > More later as things develop.. > > Bob > > > Thanks Bob Hope to see you there Bruce From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 20:29:35 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:29:35 -0800 Subject: Biloxi "ko" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks John. I'll see what comes up after I look further into this. By the way, did you have any comments on my prior email about Dorsey's Biloxi u-circumflex actually representing /a/ based on a few more cross-comparative examples I found with Dakota, as well as a Muskogean borrowing (Chickasaw falammi > x[u circum]n[u circum]mi) which looks to be actually "xanami"? I think I have Bob fairly convinced, although I would like to gather some more cross-linguistic data to further support it. But perhaps there is at least the draft of a presentation or paper in the works with what I have so far..... Thanks, Dave Koontz John E wrote: Compare Omaha-Ponca gu, something like 'thither' or 'yonder', presumably related to ga 'that (more remote)', maybe 'yon'. The glossing of demonstratives is a tricky business, and the glosses I'm providing are not necessarily idiomatic or apt in context. The OP set is something like dhe 'this', s^e 'that (near you)', ga 'yon', and, in parallel with these, du, s^u, and gu. S^u is definitely 'toward you' and is regularly compounded with motion verbs, though du and gu occur in the pattern less commonly, too. There's also a locative particle dhu used with dhe in dhedhu. Wes Jones has an article or two in print on the tendency of similar shapes to show up on Siouan languages as both demonstrative and locative pospositions, and the probable non-coincidence of this. You can find variants of the standard Siouan demonstratives *Re (or *re ? or *te ?), *s^e (or *he ?), and *ka with the substituted vowel o or u in many of the Siouan languages, though I don't recall any clear Dakotan examples. Perhaps this results from prepending demonstratives to verbs with the *o-locative. You can find a lot of material on Siouan locatives and positionals in the archives of the Siouan list. Although use of positional verbs (stand/sit/lie/walk) with demonstratives is a Southeastern feature as Bob points out, it's pretty common in Siouan, southeastern or not. It's more or less common in Mandan, Winnebago, and Dhegiha, and, of course, in Biloxi. In Dhegiha the particles in question have become the definite articles, or, rather, some of the definite articles, but still occur regularly with demonstratives. Bob has a published article on Siouan positionals that you should probably track down. Cross-linguistically, if a language has some kind of classifier or shape/positional scheme, it is likely to use them with counting and/or with demonstrative constructions. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 21:35:07 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:35:07 -0800 Subject: Biloxi u-circumflex Message-ID: Whoops! Sorry, I actually only intended that last email for John K., but apparently I sent it to the list. I don't think I had mentioned any of the Biloxi [u-circumflex] > [a] theory over the list. But if anyone's interested in this aspect of Biloxi phonetics, I can fill you in. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Feb 1 18:08:31 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 19:08:31 +0100 Subject: Non-Dakotan Siouan speech online Message-ID: "(Constantine:) Hello everybody. I wonder are there speech samples of Non-Dakotan Siouan languages online" Hi Kostya, all I can recall is a site (of the Kaw nation) with a small list of phrases etc. in Kansa with one sound file added to listen to it. http://www.niwic.net/hello-oklahoma/kanza.htm (I guess, Prof. Rankin and/or Justin McBride are able to give you further feedback on this.) Best regards na toksa ake Alfred -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From parksd at indiana.edu Tue Feb 1 19:07:14 2005 From: parksd at indiana.edu (Parks, Douglas R.) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:07:14 -0500 Subject: Finally -- the Quapaw sketch. Message-ID: Bob, I have finally had a chance to see why there was a problem with the portrayal of the vowels in your Quapaw sketch. In the proofs that you were sent, they appear just as they do in the printed piece. In your proofing you did not indicate that the alignments were incorrect. The author is responsible for proofing and catching mistakes like these, and had you caught them take at that stage, they would have been corrected. Best -- Doug __________________________________________________ Douglas R. Parks Professor of Anthropology Associate Director, American Indian Studies Research Institute Indiana University 422 North Indiana Avenue Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone 812.855.4123 Fax 812.855.7529 || E-mail parksd at indiana.edu || AISRI web site http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of R. Rankin Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 6:24 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Finally -- the Quapaw sketch. I received my freebie copies of _Native Languages of the Southeastern United States_ from the Nebraska Press in the mail today and was relieved to see that they did a pretty fair job of reproducing my Quapaw grammar sketch manuscript. Thus far the only errors I've caught are in the listing of the vowel inventory. The problem there seems to be due to the fact that Microsoft Word appears to randomly destroy horizontal tabular formatting when identical files with identical templates are displayed on two different computers (I'm sure most of you have experience with THAT.) So the Quapaw oral vowel "triangle" came out as a vowel "diamond" when they set the type. It should be: i e o a . . . but it came out as: i e o a Likewise the nasal vowels lost tabular formatting. They should display as: iN oN aN . . . but they emerged as a vertical column: iN oN aN So if anyone buys or checks out this volume, you might want to make those minor corrections. At least the sketch is finally out, and a lot is now in print that I've wanted to get out for over 10 years. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Tue Feb 1 19:51:14 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:51:14 -0600 Subject: Finally -- the Quapaw sketch. Message-ID: Don't worry, it's not a big problem. I'm not a great proofer and I knew they were correct in what I sent in. The problem lies with the tendency of Microsoft Word not to produce comparable output of identical files (especially tabs) on two different machines. It's just too bad that, with all the time that's passed, I couldn't have made it "perfect". The volume, along with the Osage Grammar, look quite nice and I'm glad to see both in print. Cheers, Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Parks, Douglas R. Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 1:07 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Finally -- the Quapaw sketch. Bob, I have finally had a chance to see why there was a problem with the portrayal of the vowels in your Quapaw sketch. In the proofs that you were sent, they appear just as they do in the printed piece. In your proofing you did not indicate that the alignments were incorrect. The author is responsible for proofing and catching mistakes like these, and had you caught them take at that stage, they would have been corrected. Best -- Doug __________________________________________________ Douglas R. Parks Professor of Anthropology Associate Director, American Indian Studies Research Institute Indiana University 422 North Indiana Avenue Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone 812.855.4123 Fax 812.855.7529 || E-mail parksd at indiana.edu || AISRI web site http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of R. Rankin Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 6:24 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Finally -- the Quapaw sketch. I received my freebie copies of _Native Languages of the Southeastern United States_ from the Nebraska Press in the mail today and was relieved to see that they did a pretty fair job of reproducing my Quapaw grammar sketch manuscript. Thus far the only errors I've caught are in the listing of the vowel inventory. The problem there seems to be due to the fact that Microsoft Word appears to randomly destroy horizontal tabular formatting when identical files with identical templates are displayed on two different computers (I'm sure most of you have experience with THAT.) So the Quapaw oral vowel "triangle" came out as a vowel "diamond" when they set the type. It should be: i e o a . . . but it came out as: i e o a Likewise the nasal vowels lost tabular formatting. They should display as: iN oN aN . . . but they emerged as a vertical column: iN oN aN So if anyone buys or checks out this volume, you might want to make those minor corrections. At least the sketch is finally out, and a lot is now in print that I've wanted to get out for over 10 years. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Tue Feb 1 20:06:15 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:06:15 -0600 Subject: Congratulations! Message-ID: . . . To Carolyn Quintero on the Osage Grammar, which just appeared from the Univ. of Nebraska Press!! Bob From rankin at ku.edu Tue Feb 1 20:10:00 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:10:00 -0600 Subject: Non-Dakotan Siouan speech online Message-ID: Dear Friends, I have not yet checked the Kaw Nation language program website, but if the voice is a woman's, then it is Mrs. Maude Rowe, one of the last fluent speakers of Kaw and the person with whom I did the vast majority of my recording in the mid 1970s. If the recording is of a man speaking, I'm afraid it is probably me. Sooner or later there will be recorded material from speakers on the website. Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of "Alfred W. T?ting" Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 12:09 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Non-Dakotan Siouan speech online "(Constantine:) Hello everybody. I wonder are there speech samples of Non-Dakotan Siouan languages online" Hi Kostya, all I can recall is a site (of the Kaw nation) with a small list of phrases etc. in Kansa with one sound file added to listen to it. http://www.niwic.net/hello-oklahoma/kanza.htm (I guess, Prof. Rankin and/or Justin McBride are able to give you further feedback on this.) Best regards na toksa ake Alfred -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Feb 1 20:14:20 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:14:20 -0600 Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan Message-ID: I received this from this scholar in the Netherlands. I haven't replied to it yet, but I'm sure he would be overjoyed to hear from any of you who can help him. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Leon Stassen [mailto:l.stassen at let.ru.nl] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 7:51 PM To: Rankin, Robert L Subject: possessive constructions in siouan Dear Professor Rankin, You probably do not know who I am, so allow me to introduce myself: my name is Leon Stassen, and I am a language typologist working at the universities of Nijmegen and Utrecht in the Netherlands. I have gotten your name and e-mail address from Marianne Mithun (UCSB), who recommended you as a leading specialist on Siouan. I wonder if I could ask you some information on these languages? Such information would be most welcome for the project on which I am currently working. My project concerns the expression of (alienable) predicative possession in the languages of the world. To put it rather bluntly, I am interested in the various ways in which a sentence of the type The man has a house/car/ horse (or whatever things one may alienably possess in the society at issue) is formally encoded. As is already known in the literature (e.g. Heine 1998), there are a number of frequently recurring patterns for such sentences, such as a) the Have pattern, featuring a transitive verb, with the possessor as the subject and the possessed item as the direct object; English is of course an example; b) the Locative Possessive, of the type To/at/near the man, a/his horse is/exists c) the Topic-possessive, of the type The man, a/his horse exists d) the With-Possessive, of the type The man exists/is with a/his horse but I have found that these are by no means the only ways of predicative possession encoding. In fact, what I have seen of Siouan languages so far would not seem to fit straightforwardly into one of these types. If I am right in interpreting the data so far (but I would appreciate it very much if you would correct me) , a sentence like 'I have a dog' would, in at least some of the Siouan languages such as Lakota and Crow, have the rough form of something like dog 1SG.PATIENT-exist but, of course, I can't be sure about this, and in any event, I have a serious shortage of data. It would be very helpful if you could provide me with a sample sentence from one or more of these languages; and, if it is not too much trouble, perhaps you might be so kind as to gloss it? Another thing that is problematic for me is the fact that, in some grammars of Siouan languages, a verb is featured which is constantly glossed as a transitve 'have'- item; the Lakota verb 'yuka' and the Biloxi verb ''ita' are cases in point. Now, as far as my sample goes, North America is not really a place to have original transitive HAVE-verbs; in fact, Lakota and Biloxi would stand alone on the continent if they had this feature. Therefore my question is: is it possible that these 'have'-items are in fact the products of reanalysis from an erstwhile positional verb such as 'to stand, to lie' etc. ? This, then, would put these languages on a par with a development that can be documented for Algonquian, where a positional verb 'aya' (which means 'to be' in Ojibwa and other Algonquian languages) has been 'transitivized' into a 'have'-verb in Plains Cree. I am fully aware that you, as a specialist, must receive quite a few of requests such as these, and that, moreover, you have more pressing things to do than to answer all of these queries. Nonetheless, I would be most grateful if you could find the time for an answer. Best regards, Leon Stassen. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 20:27:56 2005 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:27:56 -0800 Subject: World Languages Message-ID: Howdy, I recently found a site that I thought some of you on the list may find interesting. http://www.worldlanguage.com/Languages/List/O.htm WorldLanguage.com promotes itself as "The Ultimate Language Store" with products (in the categories shown below) in over hundreds of languages, including many Siouan languages: Computers / NotebooksDictionaryESL-English as Second LanguageGamesGift Items!Handheld DictionaryKaraokeKeyboard StickersKeyboardsKidsLearnMicrosoft OfficeMicrosoft WindowsMovies/VideosSoftware - MacSoftware - WindowsSpell CheckingTranslationMore... The site is run by: World Language Resources 2130 Sawtelle Blvd. Suite 304A Los Angeles, CA 90025 Tel: 310-996-2300 Fax: 310-996-2303 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 20:43:47 2005 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:43:47 -0800 Subject: Non-Dakotan Siouan speech online In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D01233BE1@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Are you aware of this Library of Congress Website?: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/omhhtml/omhhome.html At this site you will find: Omaha Indian Music features traditional Omaha music from the 1890s and 1980s. The multiformat ethnographic field collection contains 44 wax cylinder recordings collected by Francis La Flesche and Alice Cunningham Fletcher between 1895 and 1897, 323 songs and speeches from the 1983 Omaha harvest celebration pow-wow, and 25 songs and speeches from the 1985 Hethu'shka Society concert at the Library of Congress. Segments from interviews with members of the Omaha tribe conducted in 1983 and 1999 provide contextual information for the songs and speeches included in the collection. Supplementing the collection are black-and-white and color photographs taken during the 1983 pow-wow and the 1985 concert, as well as research materials that include fieldnotes and tape logs pertaining to the pow-wow. This presentation is made possible by the generous support of The Texaco Foundation. In addition, there is a link related Omaha/Ponca "Spoken Word" links at: http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/S?ammem/omhbib:@field(NUMBER(@range(s0001+s0999))) Good Luck, Jonathan "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: Dear Friends, I have not yet checked the Kaw Nation language program website, but if the voice is a woman's, then it is Mrs. Maude Rowe, one of the last fluent speakers of Kaw and the person with whom I did the vast majority of my recording in the mid 1970s. If the recording is of a man speaking, I'm afraid it is probably me. Sooner or later there will be recorded material from speakers on the website. Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of "Alfred W. T?ting" Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 12:09 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Non-Dakotan Siouan speech online "(Constantine:) Hello everybody. I wonder are there speech samples of Non-Dakotan Siouan languages online" Hi Kostya, all I can recall is a site (of the Kaw nation) with a small list of phrases etc. in Kansa with one sound file added to listen to it. http://www.niwic.net/hello-oklahoma/kanza.htm (I guess, Prof. Rankin and/or Justin McBride are able to give you further feedback on this.) Best regards na toksa ake Alfred --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! ? Try it today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmcbride at kawnation.com Tue Feb 1 21:33:04 2005 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:33:04 -0600 Subject: Non-Dakotan Siouan speech online Message-ID: Message----- Original Message ----- From: Rankin, Robert L > I have not yet checked the Kaw Nation language program website, > but if the voice is a woman's, then it is Mrs. Maude Rowe, one of the > last fluent speakers of Kaw and the person with whom I did the vast > majority of my recording in the mid 1970s. If the recording is of a > man speaking, I'm afraid it is probably me. Sooner or later there will > be recorded material from speakers on the website. Oh, it's far worse than that, I'm afraid. It's me! The former Kanza Language Teacher and I made this series of recordings as part of a langauge class for adults from a few years back. I recorded about half and the Language Teacher did the most of the others. A few recordings may have even come from one or more of the students. At that time we were working on several simultaneous projects using the same list of about 800 words, so we just decided to attach the recordings to the word list text and post the whole thing online. It didn't work out nearly as well as I'd hoped. But maybe that's okay, as it's not the greatest quality product to begin with. We used a pair of upturned headphones instead of a microphone, and recorded very long sections of text without breaking. In some of the recordings there's probably much more noisy breathing than intelligible speeech. And with numerous errors in the text and a couple of missing sound files, all I can say is that it was never intended to be the final product. But, like so many things, it just got placed on the backburner. NEVER FEAR... as Dr. Rankin said, we are planning a full-scale revision of the tribe's language website. When it's all done (give us a coupla years on this one), it will be a fantastic Siouan resource, combining a vast amount of native speaker material with full-function web accesibility... or so we hope! We'll keep you posted. Justin McBride Language Coordinator & Acting Webdesigner Kaw Nation of Oklahoma Drawer 50 Kaw City, OK 74641 PH (580) 269-2552 ext 241 FX (580) 269-2204 attn Language/Web Dev jmcbride at kawnation.com http://www.kawnation.com/langhome.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 23:29:47 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:29:47 -0800 Subject: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi Message-ID: Hi all, Bob, John K, and I have been having some discussion re: Biloxi pronunciation and Dorsey's and Swanton's diacritic marks. One of these involves their use of u-circumflex, which Dorsey and Swanton describe as "u in but," which sounds like the schwa to me. I'm particularly wondering about its use in the word su(circumflex)pi, meaning "black," which according to this, should be pronounced something like "suppy". This would mean, I think, that perhaps in Biloxi a schwa could be stressed. I think Bob mentions Ofo having a similar stressed schwa sound. Do any other Siouan languages have this schwa sound in stressed syllables? Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Feb 2 00:32:39 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 18:32:39 -0600 Subject: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi In-Reply-To: <20050201232947.50275.qmail@web53810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: David Kaufman wrote: > Bob, John K, and I have been having some discussion re: Biloxi > pronunciation and Dorsey's and Swanton's diacritic marks. One of these > involves their use of *u-circumflex*, which Dorsey and Swanton describe > as "/u/ in b/u/t," which sounds like the schwa to me. I'm particularly > wondering about its use in the word *su(circumflex)pi*, meaning "black," > which according to this, should be pronounced something like "suppy". > This would mean, I think, that perhaps in Biloxi a schwa could > be stressed. I think Bob mentions Ofo having a similar stressed schwa > sound. Do any other Siouan languages have this schwa sound in stressed > syllables? American English dictionaries often use the schwa symbol in both unstressed and stressed positions, as in 'above'. Phonemically these may be the same, but phonetically they differ, the second one (reversed capital V in IPA) being, lower and backer than the first and probably like u-circumflex. (The word 'schwa' in English can mean both 1.) a vowel, like the in 'above', and 2.) the symbol, which can represent in different systems a.) only the schwa-sound, or b.) the schwa-sound and the revV-sound.) Alan From mary.marino at usask.ca Tue Feb 1 23:09:34 2005 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:09:34 -0600 Subject: Dakota Dialects Message-ID: Hello Doug, Thanks, this is helpful. Mary At 04:43 PM 1/27/2005, you wrote: >John and Mary, > >Allow me to clarify several points that have been under discussion. > >(1) The Yanktonai, like the Yanktons, identify themselves in English as >"Dakotas." There is no historical evidence that the Yanktonai ever >identified themselves as nakhota, and I have never heard a contemporary >speaker (and here I mean on all the five reservations where the >subdialects are spoken) self-identify using an n. Cook in 1880-82 >similarly recorded the term with an initial d. The history of the >fallacy that Yanktonais referred to themselves with an n is given in >DeMallie's and my paper, pp. 242-48. James Howard is the 20th century >promoter of the use of the n form, and his assertions have been accepted >by many, particularly younger people who like the "neat" classification >that it provides. > >(2) There actually has been a fair amount of work accomplished on >Yanktonai, although unpublished. Based on work with speakers from >Standing Rock and Devil's Lake, but including the other communities, >I've compiled a reasonably extensive dictionary database, and Ray has >recorded and transcribed a modest collection of texts. (See HNAI >13(1):98.) > >(3) For the Ochethi Shakowin, see DeMallie (HNAI 13(2):735-48). > >Doug > >__________________________________________________ > >Douglas R. Parks >Professor of Anthropology From Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc Wed Feb 2 15:01:02 2005 From: Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc (Louis Garcia) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:01:02 -0600 Subject: Dakota Dialects In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050201170741.01de1b68@sask.usask.ca> Message-ID: Members: Please allow me to put my two cents in on this subject. I live here on the Spirit Lake Dakota Reservation (formerly called Devils Lake). I have been here about 38 years. When I called the residents Santee they bit my head off. They were Sisseton - Wahpeton and Yanktonai. Later I discovered the political split. Santee treaty of 1851, and the Sisseton - Wahpeton treaty of 1851 (Traverse des Sioux). Two separate treaties. I think where Jim Howard got the Nakota idea is that the speakers here use "Na" on the ends of their words instead of the expected "Dan". The speakers further explained that the "na" ending does not always mean a something small. I use the term "familiarity" as I am not a linguist. Example: Sungtokcana (wolf) meaning you know that wolf that has been hanging around. I am not talking about a new wolf. Toksta ake, Louie From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Wed Feb 2 15:42:35 2005 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:42:35 -0600 Subject: Congratulations! Message-ID: Thanks, Bob. I didn't know it was out! Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" Sent: Feb 1, 2005 2:06 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Congratulations! . . . To Carolyn Quintero on the Osage Grammar, which just appeared from the Univ. of Nebraska Press!! Bob From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 2 19:16:40 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 11:16:40 -0800 Subject: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi In-Reply-To: <42001FA7.7000805@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for this insight, Alan. Another interesting Dorsey symbol for Biloxi represents something like d followed by a voiced th sound (like th in this). Is this another sound common to Siouan? I don't believe these pronunciation matters were adequately addressed in Einaudi's Biloxi dissertation, and I'm wondering if some of these "finer" sound distinctions apparently happened upon by Dorsey warrant some more review. I will probably have to do some extensive cross-linguistic comparisons with other Siouan languages to narrow this down, at least in particular words. I'm becoming more convinced however, since Dorsey did specifically mention the pronunciation of u circumflex as u in but, that this schwa-like (upside-down V) sound existed, and perhaps s[u-circumflex]pi (black) and pst(u circumflex)ki (sew) should both be pronounced something more like [suppy] and [pstucky], with perhaps a new character to represent this, rather than /supi/ and /pstuki/ as they appear in the dissertation. Unless this sounds totally un-Siouan!? Dave "Alan H. Hartley" wrote: David Kaufman wrote: > Bob, John K, and I have been having some discussion re: Biloxi > pronunciation and Dorsey's and Swanton's diacritic marks. One of these > involves their use of *u-circumflex*, which Dorsey and Swanton describe > as "/u/ in b/u/t," which sounds like the schwa to me. I'm particularly > wondering about its use in the word *su(circumflex)pi*, meaning "black," > which according to this, should be pronounced something like "suppy". > This would mean, I think, that perhaps in Biloxi a schwa could > be stressed. I think Bob mentions Ofo having a similar stressed schwa > sound. Do any other Siouan languages have this schwa sound in stressed > syllables? American English dictionaries often use the schwa symbol in both unstressed and stressed positions, as in 'above'. Phonemically these may be the same, but phonetically they differ, the second one (reversed capital V in IPA) being, lower and backer than the first and probably like u-circumflex. (The word 'schwa' in English can mean both 1.) a vowel, like the in 'above', and 2.) the symbol, which can represent in different systems a.) only the schwa-sound, or b.) the schwa-sound and the revV-sound.) Alan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Feb 2 19:24:14 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:24:14 -0600 Subject: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi Message-ID: The only thing I can add to what I said before is that, in Ofo, all the instances of stressed schwa that I can locate are reflexes of denasalized /aN/. Schwa can come from both nasal and oral /a/ unaccented, but AFAIK only from stressed nasal A. (The way I know it's a denasalized aN is by comparing it with cognates in Biloxi, Tutelo or some more distant Siouan language with a cognate lexeme). The term for 'black' can come from either of two different etyma. *(i)sa:pe or *(i)sepi. I would think the former would underlie the Biloxi word, but can't say for sure. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Kaufman" To: "Siouan List" Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 5:29 PM Subject: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi > Hi all, > > Bob, John K, and I have been having some discussion > re: Biloxi pronunciation and Dorsey's and Swanton's > diacritic marks. One of these involves their use of > u-circumflex, which Dorsey and Swanton describe as "u > in but," which sounds like the schwa to me. I'm > particularly wondering about its use in the word > su(circumflex)pi, meaning "black," which according to > this, should be pronounced something like "suppy". > This would mean, I think, that perhaps in Biloxi a > schwa could be stressed. I think Bob mentions Ofo > having a similar stressed schwa sound. Do any other > Siouan languages have this schwa sound in stressed > syllables? > > Dave > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com From rankin at ku.edu Wed Feb 2 19:34:59 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:34:59 -0600 Subject: Dorsey Ddh in Biloxi Message-ID: He only writes ddh occasionally in Biloxi, but he writes it all the time in Quapaw for the local reflex of Proto-Siouan /r/. What I heard for this in the 1970's was just a lamino-dental voiced stop. I write it simply as /d/. I've never heard an actual fricative offglide. Bob ----- Original Message ----- > Another interesting Dorsey symbol for Biloxi > represents something like d followed by a voiced th > sound (like th in this). Is this another sound > common to Siouan? From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 2 20:58:13 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:58:13 -0800 Subject: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi In-Reply-To: <003a01c5095c$c9127b40$28b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Bob, I guess a lot of my confusion is just from a lack of overall Siouan knowledge at this point, but just to make sure I've got this straight: you're saying that a stressed schwa can only come about from a previously nasalized stressed A. And I suppose there's no reason to suspect that the underlying Siouan sa:pe or sepi (a or e) would have become nasalized in Biloxi, then denasalized again to a stressed schwa. Interesting. What a puzzle! Thanks for the comments on the ddh as well. Sounds like /d/ is appropriate here. Dave "R. Rankin" wrote: The only thing I can add to what I said before is that, in Ofo, all the instances of stressed schwa that I can locate are reflexes of denasalized /aN/. Schwa can come from both nasal and oral /a/ unaccented, but AFAIK only from stressed nasal A. (The way I know it's a denasalized aN is by comparing it with cognates in Biloxi, Tutelo or some more distant Siouan language with a cognate lexeme). The term for 'black' can come from either of two different etyma. *(i)sa:pe or *(i)sepi. I would think the former would underlie the Biloxi word, but can't say for sure. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Kaufman" To: "Siouan List" Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 5:29 PM Subject: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi > Hi all, > > Bob, John K, and I have been having some discussion > re: Biloxi pronunciation and Dorsey's and Swanton's > diacritic marks. One of these involves their use of > u-circumflex, which Dorsey and Swanton describe as "u > in but," which sounds like the schwa to me. I'm > particularly wondering about its use in the word > su(circumflex)pi, meaning "black," which according to > this, should be pronounced something like "suppy". > This would mean, I think, that perhaps in Biloxi a > schwa could be stressed. I think Bob mentions Ofo > having a similar stressed schwa sound. Do any other > Siouan languages have this schwa sound in stressed > syllables? > > Dave > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 2 22:13:46 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 15:13:46 -0700 Subject: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi In-Reply-To: <20050202205813.67766.qmail@web53810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, David Kaufman wrote: > I guess a lot of my confusion is just from a lack of overall Siouan > knowledge at this point, but just to make sure I've got this straight: > you're saying that a stressed schwa can only come about from a > previously nasalized stressed A. To be precise - and I apologize if David just omitted this for simplicity in his restatement - Bob actually said that in Ofo (as opposed to Siouan in general or Biloxi) he has observed unaccented schwa representing what comparison suggests is an unaccented /a/ or unaccented /aN/, and accented schwa representing accented /aN/. However, I suspect Bob meant this an encouragement to interpret schwa, accented or not, as a or aN, if other evidence supported it, or, more simply as a, with nasalization determined from other evidence. I mentioned that I have heard unaccented final schwa representing unaccented aN in Omaha and seen the corresponding words spelled occasionally in various contexts with final a (not a + raised n), e.g. /umaNhaN/ as [umaNh], egaN as [eg] or [ig], gdhebaN as [gdheb], and so on. In a family with vowel systems that typically amount to aeiou aNiNuN or aeiu aNiN (or aNiNoN?) neglecting length it's reasonable to suspect a schwa in "preliminary transcription" might represent a or aN, accented or not. Dorsey and Swanton worked in innocence of any formal phonemic concept and probably had no real concept of contextual variation either. In their approach the height of linguistic rigor was a narrow phonetic trancription. Dorsey uses a broad phonetic transcription for most purposes, and notes unusual contextual variants more narrowly. Some sorts of phonetic detail clearly attract his attention more than others. He does a lot more specification of phonetic detail in Biloxi, it seems to me, than elsewhere, perhaps because it was unfamiliar. Or maybe I'm just more familiar with the key than the data in this case! A broad phonetic transcriptions might in some cases amount to a phonemic transcription, but not always. It depends on what guides the instincts in broadening - merging - things and on how far one goes. The mapping of vowel phonemes and their allophones to phonetic vowels can sometimes be surprising. Check out Marshallese - an example I noticed recently. > And I suppose there's no reason to suspect that the underlying Siouan > sa:pe or sepi (a or e) would have become nasalized in Biloxi, then > denasalized again to a stressed schwa. Interesting. What a puzzle! Nope on the process in my judgement. I expect it's just *sapi written spi. Siouan nasal vowels are often apparently denasalized in certain contexts (e.g., after a nasal sonorant or finally or initially). I've heard it asserted that some speakers nasalize or denasalize more than others. Speakers may denasalize sporadically, perhaps more often in certain contexts, perhaps more often in certain words. Thus one utterance of a word might seem to differ from another utterance at another time by the same speaker. Denasalization may affect only vowels or also nasal sonorants. Nasalization is essentially a supersegmental quantity in most Siouan languages and can spread across certain consonants (sonorants, semi-vowels, laryngeals, etc.). Some languages display regular variations in nasality of vowels or sonorants determined by morphological processes that result in adding or removing sources of nasality or barriers to its spreading. Nasalization may "occur" scrunched up at one end of a sequence over which it can spread. One could account for /umaNhaN/ as [umaNh] in those terms, too. Nasalization sometimes simply lands off the target vowel, even on an adjacent vowel across a theoretically "impermeable" consonant, e.g., I've heard an Omaha speaker say [iNga] (or maybe [iNg] in fast speech for [egaN]. From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 2 22:33:55 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 14:33:55 -0800 Subject: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks John, this is great! After giving it more thought, I still want to do a cross-linguistic comparison of other Siouan language words that correspond to Dorsey's Biloxi [u circumflex] words. But it's beginning to look more reasonable that [u circumflex] should just be /a/. At least I may use that for my working hypothesis right now, anyway. There's not that much difference really between /schwa/ and /a/, and it's reasonable to expect that Dorsey may have thought he heard /schwa/ when he really just heard /a/. This would mean of course that Einaudi's /supi/ would become, per this theory, /sapi/ and pstuki /pstaki/. Dave Koontz John E wrote: On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, David Kaufman wrote: > I guess a lot of my confusion is just from a lack of overall Siouan > knowledge at this point, but just to make sure I've got this straight: > you're saying that a stressed schwa can only come about from a > previously nasalized stressed A. To be precise - and I apologize if David just omitted this for simplicity in his restatement - Bob actually said that in Ofo (as opposed to Siouan in general or Biloxi) he has observed unaccented schwa representing what comparison suggests is an unaccented /a/ or unaccented /aN/, and accented schwa representing accented /aN/. However, I suspect Bob meant this an encouragement to interpret schwa, accented or not, as a or aN, if other evidence supported it, or, more simply as a, with nasalization determined from other evidence. I mentioned that I have heard unaccented final schwa representing unaccented aN in Omaha and seen the corresponding words spelled occasionally in various contexts with final a (not a + raised n), e.g. /umaNhaN/ as [umaNh], egaN as [eg] or [ig], gdhebaN as [gdheb], and so on. In a family with vowel systems that typically amount to aeiou aNiNuN or aeiu aNiN (or aNiNoN?) neglecting length it's reasonable to suspect a schwa in "preliminary transcription" might represent a or aN, accented or not. Dorsey and Swanton worked in innocence of any formal phonemic concept and probably had no real concept of contextual variation either. In their approach the height of linguistic rigor was a narrow phonetic trancription. Dorsey uses a broad phonetic transcription for most purposes, and notes unusual contextual variants more narrowly. Some sorts of phonetic detail clearly attract his attention more than others. He does a lot more specification of phonetic detail in Biloxi, it seems to me, than elsewhere, perhaps because it was unfamiliar. Or maybe I'm just more familiar with the key than the data in this case! A broad phonetic transcriptions might in some cases amount to a phonemic transcription, but not always. It depends on what guides the instincts in broadening - merging - things and on how far one goes. The mapping of vowel phonemes and their allophones to phonetic vowels can sometimes be surprising. Check out Marshallese - an example I noticed recently. > And I suppose there's no reason to suspect that the underlying Siouan > sa:pe or sepi (a or e) would have become nasalized in Biloxi, then > denasalized again to a stressed schwa. Interesting. What a puzzle! Nope on the process in my judgement. I expect it's just *sapi written spi. Siouan nasal vowels are often apparently denasalized in certain contexts (e.g., after a nasal sonorant or finally or initially). I've heard it asserted that some speakers nasalize or denasalize more than others. Speakers may denasalize sporadically, perhaps more often in certain contexts, perhaps more often in certain words. Thus one utterance of a word might seem to differ from another utterance at another time by the same speaker. Denasalization may affect only vowels or also nasal sonorants. Nasalization is essentially a supersegmental quantity in most Siouan languages and can spread across certain consonants (sonorants, semi-vowels, laryngeals, etc.). Some languages display regular variations in nasality of vowels or sonorants determined by morphological processes that result in adding or removing sources of nasality or barriers to its spreading. Nasalization may "occur" scrunched up at one end of a sequence over which it can spread. One could account for /umaNhaN/ as [umaNh] in those terms, too. Nasalization sometimes simply lands off the target vowel, even on an adjacent vowel across a theoretically "impermeable" consonant, e.g., I've heard an Omaha speaker say [iNga] (or maybe [iNg] in fast speech for [egaN]. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Feb 3 02:20:17 2005 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 20:20:17 -0600 Subject: Emigrant Algonquian words for 'dime'? In-Reply-To: <20050202223355.36587.qmail@web53803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have a question for anyone who does "emigrant" (->Kansas->Oklahoma) Indian languages, especially Sauk-Fox, Kickapoo, Delaware, Wyandot or Shawnee: What is their term for 'dime'? My motivation is trying to figure out when and how the term came into Omaha. The Omaha term is s^uga'z^iNga, which parses as "thick-little", or "little thick" if Omaha word order is respected. Until recently, I thought this formulation occurred only in OP, and I supposed that it came in in the early 19th century any time after Lewis and Clark. Recently I had the privilege of examining a copy of Jimm Good Tracks' 1992 dictionary of Iowa-Otoe-Missouria, and found that the term existed there too. Since the construction is so improbable, I concluded that it probably came in during the Omahas' Bellevue period, from 1846-1856, when they were camped in close proximity to the Otos near the city that bears their name. This was the period of the great wagon trains rolling west right by where they were camped, the first missions, and early tourists on steamboats with the Bellevue trading post as an important way station. It was during this time that one might expect them to have become familiar with American monetary terms. Now I've had a chance to look at the wonderful Kaw language site, put up, I understand, by Justin with support from Bob, which Alfred kindly pointed out to us. Apparently Kaw also has the same "thick-little" formulation as Omaha and Iowa-Otoe-Missouria. The Kaw, however, were not located at Bellevue at this time. Instead, in 1846, they signed a treaty relinquishing most of their lands and moved to a reservation starting somewhere west of Topeka. Various eastern Indian tribes were moved into reservations along the eastern side of Kansas. Between the Kaw and Bellevue were reservations for Sauks and Foxes, Kickapoos, Delawares and Wyandots, with Shawnees just to the southeast. Now this forces me to revise my theory again. If this odd term for 'dime' was coined in the Bellevue period, then it must have been common, not only for the Omahas, Otos, Missourias, Iowas and Kaws, but probably for all the displaced Indian groups on the reservations between them as well. But if these other groups did not use any sort of "thick-little" term for 'dime', then the term must have been established among Missouri Siouan tribes from northeastern Kansas to northeastern Nebraska prior to 1846. (Osage and the Dakotan languages do not have this formulation so far as I know.) Pawnee, of course, would also be of interest. Thanks, Rory From rankin at ku.edu Thu Feb 3 17:03:03 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:03:03 -0600 Subject: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi Message-ID: Well, I think the generalization is that accented schwa would generally come from nasal A. That doesn't mean there aren't exceptions though. No telling just what Dorsey heard. Did Haas and Swadesh record any accented schwas? Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 2:58 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi Bob, I guess a lot of my confusion is just from a lack of overall Siouan knowledge at this point, but just to make sure I've got this straight: you're saying that a stressed schwa can only come about from a previously nasalized stressed A. And I suppose there's no reason to suspect that the underlying Siouan sa:pe or sepi (a or e) would have become nasalized in Biloxi, then denasalized again to a stressed schwa. Interesting. What a puzzle! Thanks for the comments on the ddh as well. Sounds like /d/ is appropriate here. Dave "R. Rankin" wrote: The only thing I can add to what I said before is that, in Ofo, all the instances of stressed schwa that I can locate are reflexes of denasalized /aN/. Schwa can come from both nasal and oral /a/ unaccented, but AFAIK only from stressed nasal A. (The way I know it's a denasalized aN is by comparing it with cognates in Biloxi, Tutelo or some more distant Siouan language with a cognate lexeme). The term for 'black' can come from either of two different etyma. *(i)sa:pe or *(i)sepi. I would think the former would underlie the Biloxi word, but can't say for sure. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Kaufman" To: "Siouan List" Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 5:29 PM Subject: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi > Hi all, > >! Bob, John K, and I have been having some discussion > re: Biloxi pronunciation and Dorsey's and Swanton's > diacritic marks. One of these involves their use of > u-circumflex, which Dorsey and Swanton describe as "u > in but," which sounds like the schwa to me. I'm > particularly wondering about its use in the word > su(circumflex)pi, meaning "black," which according to > this, should be pronounced something like "suppy". > This would mean, I think, that perhaps in Biloxi a > schwa could be stressed. I think Bob mentions Ofo > having a similar stressed schwa sound. Do any other > Siouan languages have this schwa sound in stressed > syllables? > > Dave > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu Feb 3 17:09:06 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:09:06 -0600 Subject: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi Message-ID: It occurs to me that it might be good to look at original field notes on Biloxi. Gatschet (who was not the world's greatest phonetician) did some Biloxi before Dorsey did and JOD incorporated his notes supposedly. It might be interesting to see what Gatschet wrote for 'black' in BI. Bob -----Original Message----- > Nope on the process in my judgement. I expect it's just *sapi written spi. From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 3 17:51:25 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 09:51:25 -0800 Subject: Dorsey u circumflex in Biloxi In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D01233BE5@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I don't believe Haas recorded any stressed schwas in her article. Although she did record length, another challenge on the Biloxi horizon. -- It occurs to me that it might be good to look at original field notes on Biloxi. -- Yes, I thought of this too. I hope that in the not too distant future, finances and time permitting, perhaps I can make a trip to the Smithsonian and see all the original field notes for Biloxi. Gatschet also seemed to have some interesting notes, according to Einaudi, such as representing Dorsey's k-dot as g. It would definitely be nice to have copies of all that. Who knows what tidbits lurk in the details! Dave "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: It occurs to me that it might be good to look at original field notes on Biloxi. Gatschet (who was not the world's greatest phonetician) did some Biloxi before Dorsey did and JOD incorporated his notes supposedly. It might be interesting to see what Gatschet wrote for 'black' in BI. Bob -----Original Message----- > Nope on the process in my judgement. I expect it's just *sapi written spi. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstelfer at ucalgary.ca Thu Feb 3 23:40:14 2005 From: cstelfer at ucalgary.ca (cstelfer at ucalgary.ca) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 16:40:14 -0700 Subject: Siouan root constraints In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D01233BE5@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Hey out there, I was wondering if anybody has ever taken a look at the root constraints on stops in any of the Siouan languages. What I want to know is: are there very many roots with two voiceless unaspirated stops? The nomenclature for this type of root might be something like TVT(V). It seems to me that a lot of roots have one aspirated and one unaspirated stop. Is this accurate? Also, would it be fair to say that ejectives are relatively rare in the Siouan languages that have them? Thanks, Corey. PS. I use the word "root", but I think most Siouanists prefer "stem". If someone wants to clarify the difference between these two terms in their Siouan usage I would appreciate it, but perhaps that's a question for another day. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 4 02:03:31 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 19:03:31 -0700 Subject: What is a root? A Stem? (Re: Siouan root constraints) In-Reply-To: <3116.136.159.141.36.1107474014.squirrel@136.159.141.36> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 cstelfer at ucalgary.ca wrote: > PS. I use the word "root", but I think most Siouanists prefer "stem". If > someone wants to clarify the difference between these two terms in their > Siouan usage I would appreciate it, but perhaps that's a question for > another day. I'm not sure I'm representative, but for me a root is a minimal non-inflectional, non-derivational morphological element, while a stem is something that can stand alone as a word, e.g., a noun stem (s^uNka as opposed to just s^uNk-) and/or be inflected, e.g., a syncopating verb stem. I think this is the usual Indo-Europeanist logic, though I gather the behavioral basis of the approach tends to fall apart at the Germanic or Romance level. To a certain limited extent I'm prepared to refer to the independent form of a noun or verb (including only the additional stem-forming -a or -e or -ya or -ye) as a root. At least one problematic issue here would be the status of the form underlying a suppletive non-third person inflected form. It's inflectable, but can't stand alone. This only occurs with inflectable forms, being inflectable suffices. So sap- and s^uNk- are roots, and sapa or s^uNka are both stems and also roots (by courtesy), while yuha is a stem made up of a derivational prefix yu- and a root -ha, and any adverbial root would be a root that isn't a stem. I suppose paha would be an example of a noun form that was both a stem and the root. In Omaha, e=...e (first, second) ~ e (third) ~ dhaN (inclusive) are the suppletive stems of 'to say'. Or dadi (first, vocative) ~ (dh)adi (second, third) are the suppletive stems of 'father'. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 4 02:03:49 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 19:03:49 -0700 Subject: Siouan root constraints In-Reply-To: <3116.136.159.141.36.1107474014.squirrel@136.159.141.36> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 cstelfer at ucalgary.ca wrote: > I was wondering if anybody has ever taken a look at the root > constraints on stops in any of the Siouan languages. What I want to > know is: are there very many roots with two voiceless unaspirated > stops? The nomenclature for this type of root might be something like > TVT(V). It seems to me that a lot of roots have one aspirated and one > unaspirated stop. Is this accurate? Apologies in advance if I'm doing violence to the notation. I'm using Th for both *hT and the much rarer *Th forms. These contrast in Dhegiha, but fall together as Th in Dakotan (except that *Th comes out h with one exception, *matho 'grizzly'). In Ioway-Otoe and Winnebago the *Th falls together with *T as T while *hT becomes Th. (There's some subsequent shuffling in Winnebago to arrive at a T vs. D contrast.) With that in mind: ThVT(V) is relatively common. Lots of examples. TVT(V) is relatively rare. See below. T(h)VThV is vanishingly rare. Off hand I'm no thinking of any examples, as roots, anyway. Of course there are other patterns of roots. The statements above apply with little modification to more general forms like these: ThVC(V) ~ CCVC(V) is relatively common. TVC(V) is relatively rare. C(C)VThV is vanishingly rare. Again there are other classes of roots, e.g., various V and CV forms, CVC(V) with initial fricatives (voiceless, sometimes voiced), forms with ejectives or glottalized fricatives, rare trisyllabic patterns, etc. The standard sources for odd forms are numerals and loan words, and there's a sporting chance that the relevant numerals are just really old loans. Actually, forms with initial T (unaspirated stops) are distributionally limited in general. - They occur in demonstratives, e.g., *ka 'yon', maybe *te 'this' (but the cognate sets suggest *re and *Re, too). - They occur in enclitics, e.g., *tu 'in' seems to account for Dakotan -l ~ tu and OP -di. Or Winnebago has -gi in comparable contexts, from *-ki. They occur with instrumentals of the shape TV. These involve at least two patterns: - the instrumental forms with PS/PMV *p, i.e., *pa 'by pushing', *pi 'by pressing', which seem originally to have been syncopating (A1 *p-pa-, A2 *s^-pa-, A3 *pa-), and - the instrumental forms with *k, PMV *ka- 'by striking', which in Mississippi Valley often involves traces of k-loss or lenition (e.g., OP A1 a-(a)'-, A2 dha-(a)'-, A3 ga-), most likely because the original form is *(r)aka- (inflected A1 *w-aka-, A2 *r-aka-, A3 *(i)raka-) and there has been a lot of analogical repair in the paradigms. - The dative and suus particles often include reflexes of a prefix *ki-. Lately I've been thinking that the dative might have been *(r)iki, parallel with *ka. It would explain a lot. Apart from this there are certain verbs with initial *p, *t, *k. The standard Dhegiha set is something like: - *p-instrumental verbs - *taNpe 'see, look at' - *kaghe 'to make' (originally 'to make marks') - *kaNdha 'to donate' (not sure I have this form right by memory) - *kaNze 'to immitate, demonstrate' - *kaNyiNka 'not to want to' - *kaN=ra 'to want' For 'see', Ioway-Otoe and Winnebago substitute: - *a...ta 'to see' These verbs are usually syncopating in Dhegiha. Most are syncopating Ioway-Otoe and Winnebago. Many have trace irregularities due to syncopation in Dakotan. There are traces of others in this class, e.g., *paN 'to call out to', maybe *ta 'to get up', and so on. Nouns with initial T are also rare. The one I remember easily is - Da paha 'hill' I remember it because the set here is irregular, since OP, etc., ppahe suggests *hpah-, while the Dakotan form suggests *pah-. > Also, would it be fair to say that ejectives are relatively rare in the > Siouan languages that have them? Ejectives and glottalized fricatives are rare. I don't think you ever get more than one in a root except by reduplication. Mandan seems to have *T?V as TV? Glottalized obstruents are about as rare as T-initials. They are aways root initial, and the roots tend to have the form T?V (or S?V), though you find forms like Omaha iNs^?age (*s^?ak-) or s?adhe (*s?a(r)-). From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 4 02:17:17 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 19:17:17 -0700 Subject: Siouan root constraints In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2005, Koontz John E wrote: > I'm using Th > for both *hT and the much rarer *Th forms. These contrast in Dhegiha, but > fall together as Th in Dakotan (except that *Th Oops, correction, I made a meta-error. only *th becomes h in Dakotan, as in Da phehaN 'crane' vs. OP ppethaN < *hpethaN. (In some cases in Dhegiha, Winnebago, and Ioway-Otoe *ph comes out h.) > comes out h with one exception, *matho 'grizzly'). Da ma(N)tho, OP maNc^hu < *maNtho. Other common sets are *thi 'arrive here', *pethaN 'fold', *thu 'copulate', *wathe 'skirt', *the ~ thaN 'upright'. These Da h : OP th comparisons were first made by James Dorsey in the lists appended to his Comparative Phonology paper. Allan Taylor rediscovered *thi in his motion verb paper and provided the first process based account of what was happening. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Fri Feb 4 04:41:21 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 20:41:21 -0800 Subject: What is a root? A Stem? (Re: Siouan root constraints) Message-ID: To make a brief non-Siouan digression, 'root' and 'stem' are not the same thing in Algonquian, either. Basically, a stem is something inflectible. Roots, however, are essentially minimal derivational parts, and combine with other derivational parts to make inflectible stems. Some roots can also function as stems, but not most. David > I use the word "root", but I think most Siouanists prefer "stem". If someone > wants to clarify the difference between these two terms in their Siouan usage > I would appreciate it, but perhaps that's a question for another day. From rankin at ku.edu Fri Feb 4 15:07:52 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 09:07:52 -0600 Subject: Siouan root constraints Message-ID: I think we'd probably all agree that a root is always a single morpheme and is the semantically central morpheme in the word. A stem may contain more than one root (as in compounds) and is "everything you have in the word up to the point where you want to add something new." There are a few instances in which a single root cannot be isolated synchronically in Siouan. These include 2-part verbs like /ma-ni/ 'walk' or, in Dhegiha, /koN-ra/ 'want'. Historically, I can identify the roots here, but synchronically, no. And in some, both parts of the verb are inflected and you just have to say they are a single verb. As for Ch and C?, there are definite trends but no absolute rules. By and large both types of complex stops are restricted to roots. (Grammaticalization and a couple of phonological processes belie this as anything absolute.) Ch is, for the vast majority of cases, historically linked to accent. Therefore you expect to find these consonant types as the onset to accented syllables, and this is indeed true. Lack of accent accounts for why you so seldom find them in enclitics and affixes. From this, you would expect that accented syllables with a plain C onset would not exist, and, indeed, they are pretty rare. But they do exist, and I don't think we are sure why that is so. John listed several important examples. The historical relationship between accent and aspiration is no longer in operation except in Ofo. As I recall, Mandan, Hidatsa and Crow all have the reflex of glottalization in syllable codas. In Mandan and, I think, Hidatsa the corresponding form to Dakotan C?V is CV?. In Crow the same thing happens, but apparently Crow has then vocalized the ? as vowel length. Bob > I was wondering if anybody has ever taken a look at > the root > constraints on stops in any of the Siouan languages. > What I want to > know is: are there very many roots with two voiceless > unaspirated > stops? The nomenclature for this type of root might > be something like > TVT(V). It seems to me that a lot of roots have one > aspirated and one > unaspirated stop. Is this accurate? Also, would it > be fair to say > that ejectives are relatively rare in the Siouan > languages that have > them? From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 4 18:56:14 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:56:14 -0700 Subject: Siouan root constraints In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2005, Koontz John E wrote: > Apart from this there are certain verbs with initial *p, *t, *k. The > standard Dhegiha set is something like: > > - *p-instrumental verbs > - *taNpe 'see, look at' > - *kaghe 'to make' (originally 'to make marks') > - *kaNdha 'to donate' (not sure I have this form right by memory) > - *kaNze 'to immitate, demonstrate' > - *kaNyiNka 'not to want to' > - *kaN=ra 'to want' These were intended as sort of Omaha-Ponca influenced Proto-Dhegiha, but Bob's post reminds me that at least *koNze, *koNyiNka, and *koN=ra are probably not aN forms. I suspect the first syllables of the last two are etymologically connected. *koNyiNka 'not to want to' looks like 'to desire little to'. > Nouns with initial T are also rare. The one I remember easily is > > - Da paha 'hill' At one point the extreme rarity of *T-initial nouns and demonstatives and "outer preverbs" - things that precede all pronouns, not just non-inclusive pronouns in verb inflection - led me to suggest that the *R and *W phonemes of Proto-Mississippi Valley (and maybe Proto-Siouan) are the "strict word initial" or maybe "proto-Siouan phrase initial" reflexes of *t and *p. There isn't a potential corresponding velar alternation. At least *R and *W do occur initially in all of the forms listed and not usually in other contexts. One "within-Dhegiha" exception would be OP ama : Osage apa for 'the (mostly animate plural proximate)', also used for what Dorsey called 'purposefully moving singular', though Ardis Eschenberg and Carolyn Quintero have been arguing for more sophisticated analyses that amount to "degrees of proximity." The main thing to note with *T in Siouan is that, like voiced fricatives, it is very limited in pre-tonic distribution. Also, liked sonorants, but unlike voiced fricatives, it is generally associated historically with anomalous "lost vowel" patterns of behavior in regularly occurring preceding elements, e.g., syncopated inflectional prefixes and *ki-prefixes. And the flip side of this is that *hT and *Tr- and voiceless fricatives are generally limited to pretonic positions and associated with either loss of a preceding syllabic element (often there is evidence of former *wV- in various capacities) or with regular occurrence of preceding elements ending in a retained (or perhaps epenthetic) vowel, e.g., regular inflectional prefixes and *ki-prefixes. One possibility is that *hT is a conditioned allophone of *T in an environment like *#(CV)_V', which seems to be how aspiration works in Ofo. However, it's not clear how that would interact with the presence/absence of vowels in prefix patterns. Perhaps the inflectional pattern was created after the *hT : *T opposition was no longer productive. Cases of *Th seem to result from contractions and cases of *C? might involve realignment of glottalization, perhaps epenthetic glottal transitions following some stems. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sat Feb 5 11:39:33 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 12:39:33 +0100 Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan Message-ID: Dear all, Leon's query to me is quite interesting so it stirred up some reflective thoughts on my side ;-) > My project concerns the expression of (alienable) predicative possession in the languages of the world. To put it rather bluntly, I am interested in the various ways in which a sentence of the type "The man has a house/car/ horse" (or whatever things one may alienably possess in the society at issue) is formally encoded. As is already known in the literature (e.g. Heine 1998), there are a number of frequently recurring patterns for such sentences, such as a) the Have pattern, featuring a transitive verb, with the possessor as the subject and the possessed item as the direct object; English is of course an example; b) the Locative Possessive, of the type "To/at/near the man, a/his horse is/exists" c) the Topic-possessive, of the type "The man, a/his horse exists" d) With-Possessive, of the type "The man exists/is with a/his horse" (...) << More generally speaking, there are two groups of language patterns, namely "to have" languages and "to be" languages: "To have" languages are mostly European languages such as English, German and French. They use the verb "to have" to express an idea of possession, as in "I have a car" or "He has a brother". "To be" languages are presented by Russian, Japanese and others which say about possession as quality or even location. For instance, Russians normally use structures like ???-?? ? ????-?? ???? (there is smth. at smb.) or ???-?? ???-?? ???? (there is smth. somewhere) to express possession. A possessor is passive in the languages of a "to be" group. E.g. Russian: U menya yest koshka ? ???? ???? ????? (I have a cat) U sestry yest koshka ? ?????? ???? ????? (the sister has a cat) (to-me/the sister's exists - a - cat) Hungarian: (Nekem) van h?zam/h?zam van. (I have a house) Szomsz?domnak h?za van. (My neighbour has a house) (Neki) van h?za/h?za van. (S/he has a house) (I/neighbour-my/he-dative exists house-my/his) Hebrew: Yesh li bait (I have a house) Ein li kesef (I don't have money) (exists/lacks to-me house/money) Ein lanu zman (we don't have time) (lacks to-us time) Yesh la-ish sus (the man has a horse) (exists to-the-man horse) Ein la-student kesef (the student has no money) (lacks to-the-student money) Latin Mihi domus est (I have a house) (I-dative is/exists house) The "to-have" languages are well-known. > Another thing that is problematic for me is the fact that, in some grammars of Siouan languages, a verb is featured which is constantly glossed as a transitve 'have'- item; the Lakota verb 'yuka' and the Biloxi verb ''ita' are cases in point. Now, as far as my sample goes, North America is not really a place to have original transitive HAVE-verbs; in fact, Lakota and Biloxi would stand alone on the continent if they had this feature. Therefore my question is: is it possible that these 'have'-items are in fact the products of reanalysis from an erstwhile positional verb such as 'to stand, to lie' etc. ? (...) << I think it should be _yuha'_ (instead of _*yuka_ ). As far as I can judge this, it actually seems to be a transitive "to-have" verb like in most European languages! I don't know the etymology of Dakotan _yuha'_ (i.e. where the root -ha derives), but most strikingly the prefix yu- seems to be denoting "hand"-action. In Spanish, "to have" is expressed by "tener" (tengo etc.) Latin _tenere_ (to hold - with the hand), and going into the etymology of German "haben", interestingly also yields results pointing in this direction: durativum to germanic *haf-ja- (German "heben"=to hold/grasp with the hand). Interestingly, German "heben" is said to be related to ig. (indoeuropean) *kap- -> Latin "capio" (I take/seize) -> e.g. mancipatio (the legal act of "taking by/with the hand i.e. take possession of [e.g. a slave]). But modern Chinese (Putonghua) too is a "to-have" language! E.g. _you3_ (to have/there is): "Wo you qian." (I have money). In this use, it clearly is transitive! (although there are other functions too, e.g. "you ren shuo..." - there are men saying -> men say/it is said..., yet, this doesn't matter in this context). Interestingly that the character's etymology also points into the direction elaborated on above: the modern version depicts a hand (sic) above the moon (or maybe also meat), whereas the ancient character just displayed a hand as such. So, here again, (and far off the European linguistic influence) the idea of "to have/possess" is expressed by "to hold in the hand/grasp with the hand". All this said, I am not at all surprized to find _yuha'_ in Dakotan. Anyhow, on a continent like America there are so many very different native tongues, why not also this type of "to-have" language. (If you're interested, here's a maybe provocative opinion http://members.tripod.com/~kajJ/images2/Dakota.html that could make this matter still more plausible ;-) ) Alfred From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 6 00:09:06 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 16:09:06 -0800 Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan In-Reply-To: <4204B075.9030703@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: -- Russians normally use structures like ???-?? ? ????-?? ???? (there is smth. at smb.) or ???-?? ???-?? ???? (there is smth. somewhere) to express possession. -- I think Russian falls into both categories here, because there is also the verb "imyet' " (to have or possess), which takes direct object, e.g. "ya imyeyu koshku", as well as "u menya koshka". -- Another thing that is problematic for me is the fact that, in some grammars of Siouan languages, a verb is featured which is constantly glossed as a transitve 'have'- item; the Lakota verb 'yuka' and the Biloxi verb ''ita' are cases in point. -- This is good for me to know too! Dorsey translates "ta" and "ita" as "have" in his dictionary, although it doesn't seem to be used as a transitive verb, at least as far as I can see so far. One way of saying someone has something in Biloxi is by saying something "moves" or "sits" (exists?), as in Dorsey's examples: "conki ktak ande" (dog his/her moves) and "conki ktak nanki" (dog his/her sits). (Not sure exactly what the "ktak" is here!) Are you looking into Polynesian languages too? Hawaiian, and apparently other Polynesian languages, are among the only languages in the world where possession can bounce between alienable and inalienable (represented by the type of possessive pronoun used). Dave "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: Dear all, Leon's query to me is quite interesting so it stirred up some reflective thoughts on my side ;-) > My project concerns the expression of (alienable) predicative possession in the languages of the world. To put it rather bluntly, I am interested in the various ways in which a sentence of the type "The man has a house/car/ horse" (or whatever things one may alienably possess in the society at issue) is formally encoded. As is already known in the literature (e.g. Heine 1998), there are a number of frequently recurring patterns for such sentences, such as a) the Have pattern, featuring a transitive verb, with the possessor as the subject and the possessed item as the direct object; English is of course an example; b) the Locative Possessive, of the type "To/at/near the man, a/his horse is/exists" c) the Topic-possessive, of the type "The man, a/his horse exists" d) With-Possessive, of the type "The man exists/is with a/his horse" (...) << More generally speaking, there are two groups of language patterns, namely "to have" languages and "to be" languages: "To have" languages are mostly European languages such as English, German and French. They use the verb "to have" to express an idea of possession, as in "I have a car" or "He has a brother". "To be" languages are presented by Russian, Japanese and others which say about possession as quality or even location. For instance, Russians normally use structures like ???-?? ? ????-?? ???? (there is smth. at smb.) or ???-?? ???-?? ???? (there is smth. somewhere) to express possession. A possessor is passive in the languages of a "to be" group. E.g. Russian: U menya yest koshka ? ???? ???? ????? (I have a cat) U sestry yest koshka ? ?????? ???? ????? (the sister has a cat) (to-me/the sister's exists - a - cat) Hungarian: (Nekem) van h?zam/h?zam van. (I have a house) Szomsz?domnak h?za van. (My neighbour has a house) (Neki) van h?za/h?za van. (S/he has a house) (I/neighbour-my/he-dative exists house-my/his) Hebrew: Yesh li bait (I have a house) Ein li kesef (I don't have money) (exists/lacks to-me house/money) Ein lanu zman (we don't have time) (lacks to-us time) Yesh la-ish sus (the man has a horse) (exists to-the-man horse) Ein la-student kesef (the student has no money) (lacks to-the-student money) Latin Mihi domus est (I have a house) (I-dative is/exists house) The "to-have" languages are well-known. > Another thing that is problematic for me is the fact that, in some grammars of Siouan languages, a verb is featured which is constantly glossed as a transitve 'have'- item; the Lakota verb 'yuka' and the Biloxi verb ''ita' are cases in point. Now, as far as my sample goes, North America is not really a place to have original transitive HAVE-verbs; in fact, Lakota and Biloxi would stand alone on the continent if they had this feature. Therefore my question is: is it possible that these 'have'-items are in fact the products of reanalysis from an erstwhile positional verb such as 'to stand, to lie' etc. ? (...) << I think it should be _yuha'_ (instead of _*yuka_ ). As far as I can judge this, it actually seems to be a transitive "to-have" verb like in most European languages! I don't know the etymology of Dakotan _yuha'_ (i.e. where the root -ha derives), but most strikingly the prefix yu- seems to be denoting "hand"-action. In Spanish, "to have" is expressed by "tener" (tengo etc.) Latin _tenere_ (to hold - with the hand), and going into the etymology of German "haben", interestingly also yields results pointing in this direction: durativum to germanic *haf-ja- (German "heben"=to hold/grasp with the hand). Interestingly, German "heben" is said to be related to ig. (indoeuropean) *kap- -> Latin "capio" (I take/seize) -> e.g. mancipatio (the legal act of "taking by/with the hand i.e. take possession of [e.g. a slave]). But modern Chinese (Putonghua) too is a "to-have" language! E.g. _you3_ (to have/there is): "Wo you qian." (I have money). In this use, it clearly is transitive! (although there are other functions too, e.g. "you ren shuo..." - there are men saying -> men say/it is said..., yet, this doesn't matter in this context). Interestingly that the character's etymology also points into the direction elaborated on above: the modern version depicts a hand (sic) above the moon (or maybe also meat), whereas the ancient character just displayed a hand as such. So, here again, (and far off the European linguistic influence) the idea of "to have/possess" is expressed by "to hold in the hand/grasp with the hand". All this said, I am not at all surprized to find _yuha'_ in Dakotan. Anyhow, on a continent like America there are so many very different native tongues, why not also this type of "to-have" language. (If you're interested, here's a maybe provocative opinion http://members.tripod.com/~kajJ/images2/Dakota.html that could make this matter still more plausible ;-) ) Alfred --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sun Feb 6 12:39:05 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 13:39:05 +0100 Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan Message-ID: > Are you looking into Polynesian languages too? Hawaiian, and apparently other Polynesian languages, are among the only languages in the world where possession can bounce between alienable and inalienable (represented by the type of possessive pronoun used). << Yes, (although I only provided examples of languages I'm more or less familiar with - except for Russian that I dealt with about 50 years back - and have forgotten most of it :( ). But don't also Dakotan tongues - theoretically - can "bounce between alienable and inalienable" possession (albeit in more complex ways)? In Hawaiian, it appears to be much less complex: "The possessive pronominals of Hawaiian can occur either postnominally as analytic pronouns or prenominally, bound to the definite article. These pronouns express alienable/inalienable distinctions through the thematic vowel o/a." (e.g. your hat: ka pa:ale a'u or k-a'u pa:ale glossed as: DEF hat ALIENABLE.you.POSS or DEF.ALIENABLE.you.POSS hat). Most probably using the same structure for, say, niho (tooth) would be ungrammatical and it should be ka niho o'u/ko'u niho instead. Alfred From rankin at ku.edu Sun Feb 6 15:30:24 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 09:30:24 -0600 Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan Message-ID: > Are you looking into Polynesian languages too? > Hawaiian, and apparently other Polynesian languages, > are among the only languages in the world where > possession can bounce between alienable and > inalienable (represented by the type of possessive > pronoun used). If I understand the question here, Choctaw can do that too. /sassish/ and /amissish/ both meaning 'my blood', but in one case it's in your body and inalienable, while in the other it's dripped out of a cut and is on the table -- and alienable. The pronominals are sa- and am-. bob From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Sun Feb 6 22:13:45 2005 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 15:13:45 -0700 Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan In-Reply-To: <4204B075.9030703@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: I have joined this discussion without reading all that has preceded it, so maybe this is redundant, but let me add my two cents anyway. Lakhota has several verbs for showing possession. "Yuha" is used most commonly today, but apparently its more subtle meaning has to do with temporary possession, sort of like "hold". So you can't use it with kinship terms or body parts, i.e. the things that are inalienably possessed. This is very much parallel in structure to European transitive verbs for 'to have'. Note also its derivatives, like "wayuha" 'to have stuff', 'to be rich', and the fact that you can use it for 'I have a cold', too --- clearly a calque from English. For inalienable posessions you must use "yukhaN" (is this Alfred's "yuka"??), which means something more literally like 'exist for' -- 'two arms exist for me" -- not a very good translation, but perhaps you see the point. The absence of posession is the ordinary negative for yuha, but the negative of yukhaN is "nica" or "wanica" 'to fail to exist, to be absent'. I have never been sure I understood the difference between those two, but it sometimes looks as if one of them refers to the absence of something that you have to have, like fathers, as opposed to something that you might have, like brothers. I don't know which is which. To complicate matters more, the range of possible objects for "nica" is larger than that for "yukhaN", since you (routinely, for many of us) say "mazaska manice" for 'I don't have any money", lit. 'money is non-existent for me'. Note, too, that these (i.e. both yukhaN and nica) have weird argument structure: they take stative affixes for the possessor, but there is always a second argument in the construction. Note that "yuha" is also used for children -- 'I have two children" uses "wichabluha", and that holds if you list them separately as sons and daughters, too, at least with the words "wakhaNyezha" 'child', "hoks^ila" 'boy', and "wiciNcala" 'girl'. I'm not sure what you do with the actual kin terms "chiNks^i" 'son' and "chuNks^i" 'daughter'. The other posessessive verb is "thawa", meaning 'belongs to', e.g. "He mithawa" 'that's mine' (note the irregular "i" vowel in the first person prefix; it recurs in the plural uNkithawapi 'our'; its source is a mystery, but there are other instances of mi- as a possessive prefix). It is used preferentially for objects that are not normally possessed, like a rock that you have in your hand at the moment, rather than the prefixed possessive forms. The latter are preferred otherwise, e.g. manape 'my hand' (maybe it's minape, though I don't think so right now) (nape 'hand'), and "mitha'iyechiNkiyaNke" 'my car' (iyechiNkiyaNke 'car'), but wowapi mithawa ki 'my book' (wowapi 'book', ki 'the'). (In the prefixes, -tha- is required for inalienably possessed items.)You can use "thawa" either attributively or predicatively -- "He wowaypi mithawa" 'that book is mine; that's my book.' And finally, kin terms have yet another system, in addition to yukhaN and nica: the causative verb -ya can be sufffixed to any of them to show possession. E.g. "ate" 'father' "atewaye" 'my father; he is my father'. Note that now the possessor is marked with ACTIVE prefixes; "inamaye" means 'I am his/her mother'. We gloss these as 'to have as...', though the style level is wrong for that (I have him as father = atewaye), since these are apparently fairly high frequency in Lakhota -- but it gets the arguments in the right places. Now isn't that a lot more than you wanted to know about possession marking in Lakhota? I don't think you can call this a "have" language or a "be" language. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Sat, 5 Feb 2005, [ISO-8859-1] "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: > Dear all, > > Leon's query to me is quite interesting so it stirred up some reflective > thoughts on my side ;-) > > > My project concerns the expression of (alienable) predicative > possession in the languages of the world. To put it rather bluntly, I am > interested in the various ways in which a sentence of the type "The man > has a house/car/ horse" (or whatever things one may alienably possess in > the society at issue) is formally encoded. As is already known in the > literature (e.g. Heine 1998), there are a number of frequently recurring > patterns for such sentences, such as > > a) the Have pattern, featuring a transitive verb, with the possessor as > the subject and the possessed item as the direct object; English is of > course an example; > b) the Locative Possessive, of the type "To/at/near the man, a/his horse > is/exists" > c) the Topic-possessive, of the type "The man, a/his horse exists" > d) With-Possessive, of the type "The man exists/is with a/his horse" > (...) << > > > More generally speaking, there are two groups of language patterns, > namely "to have" languages and "to be" languages: > > "To have" languages are mostly European languages such as English, > German and French. They use the verb "to have" to express an idea of > possession, as in "I have a car" or "He has a brother". > > "To be" languages are presented by Russian, Japanese and others which > say about possession as quality or even location. For instance, Russians > normally use structures like ???-?? ? ????-?? ???? (there is smth. at > smb.) or ???-?? ???-?? ???? (there is smth. somewhere) to express > possession. A possessor is passive in the languages of a "to be" group. > > E.g. > Russian: U menya yest koshka ? ???? ???? ????? (I have a cat) > U sestry yest koshka ? ?????? ???? ????? (the sister has a cat) > (to-me/the sister's exists - a - cat) > > Hungarian: (Nekem) van h?zam/h?zam van. (I have a house) > Szomsz?domnak h?za van. (My neighbour has a house) > (Neki) van h?za/h?za van. (S/he has a house) > (I/neighbour-my/he-dative exists house-my/his) > > Hebrew: Yesh li bait (I have a house) > Ein li kesef (I don't have money) > (exists/lacks to-me house/money) > Ein lanu zman (we don't have time) > (lacks to-us time) > Yesh la-ish sus (the man has a horse) > (exists to-the-man horse) > Ein la-student kesef (the student has no money) > (lacks to-the-student money) > > Latin Mihi domus est (I have a house) > (I-dative is/exists house) > > > The "to-have" languages are well-known. > > > > Another thing that is problematic for me is the fact that, in some > grammars of Siouan languages, a verb is featured which is constantly > glossed as a transitve 'have'- item; the Lakota verb 'yuka' and the > Biloxi verb ''ita' are cases in point. Now, as far as my sample goes, > North America is not really a place to have original transitive > HAVE-verbs; in fact, Lakota and Biloxi would stand alone on the > continent if they had this feature. Therefore my question is: is it > possible that these 'have'-items are in fact the products of reanalysis > from an erstwhile positional verb such as 'to stand, to lie' etc. ? (...) << > > > I think it should be _yuha'_ (instead of _*yuka_ ). > As far as I can judge this, it actually seems to be a transitive > "to-have" verb like in most European languages! > I don't know the etymology of Dakotan _yuha'_ (i.e. where the root -ha > derives), but most strikingly the prefix yu- seems to be denoting > "hand"-action. > > In Spanish, "to have" is expressed by "tener" (tengo etc.) Latin > _tenere_ (to hold - with the hand), and going into the etymology of > German "haben", interestingly also yields results pointing in this > direction: durativum to germanic *haf-ja- (German "heben"=to hold/grasp > with the hand). Interestingly, German "heben" is said to be related to > ig. (indoeuropean) *kap- -> Latin "capio" (I take/seize) -> e.g. > mancipatio (the legal act of "taking by/with the hand i.e. take > possession of [e.g. a slave]). > > But modern Chinese (Putonghua) too is a "to-have" language! > E.g. _you3_ (to have/there is): "Wo you qian." (I have money). In this > use, it clearly is transitive! (although there are other functions too, > e.g. "you ren shuo..." - there are men saying -> men say/it is said..., > yet, this doesn't matter in this context). > Interestingly that the character's etymology also points into the > direction elaborated on above: the modern version depicts a hand (sic) > above the moon (or maybe also meat), whereas the ancient character just > displayed a hand as such. So, here again, (and far off the European > linguistic influence) the idea of "to have/possess" is expressed by "to > hold in the hand/grasp with the hand". > > All this said, I am not at all surprized to find _yuha'_ in Dakotan. > Anyhow, on a continent like America there are so many very different > native tongues, why not also this type of "to-have" language. > (If you're interested, here's a maybe provocative opinion > > http://members.tripod.com/~kajJ/images2/Dakota.html > > that could make this matter still more plausible ;-) ) > > Alfred > > > > > > From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 03:35:00 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 19:35:00 -0800 Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan In-Reply-To: <42060FE9.8010308@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: Alfred T. wrote: -- These pronouns express alienable/inalienable distinctions through the thematic vowel o/a." (e.g. your hat: ka pa:ale a'u or k-a'u pa:ale glossed as: DEF hat ALIENABLE.you.POSS or DEF.ALIENABLE.you.POSS hat). Most probably using the same structure for, say, niho (tooth) would be ungrammatical and it should be ka niho o'u/ko'u niho instead. -- Exactly. In Hawaiian, things like body parts and family members (like Siouan) as well as house, canoe, thoughts, one's chief, etc. are considered inalienable taking the ko'u pronominal. Bob R. wrote: -- Choctaw can do that too. /sassish/ and /amissish/ both meaning 'my blood', but in one case it's in your body and inalienable, while in the other it's dripped out of a cut and is on the table -- and alienable. -- This is more like what I had in mind for Hawaiian, where some nouns can take either the inalienable ko'u or the alienable ka'u with changes in meaning, e.g.: ka'u nani (my pretty one) vs. ko'u nani (my fine looks); ka'u lei (lei made by me) vs. ko'u lei (lei that I'm wearing). Hope that makes some sense! Dave "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: > Are you looking into Polynesian languages too? Hawaiian, and apparently other Polynesian languages, are among the only languages in the world where possession can bounce between alienable and inalienable (represented by the type of possessive pronoun used). << Yes, (although I only provided examples of languages I'm more or less familiar with - except for Russian that I dealt with about 50 years back - and have forgotten most of it :( ). But don't also Dakotan tongues - theoretically - can "bounce between alienable and inalienable" possession (albeit in more complex ways)? In Hawaiian, it appears to be much less complex: "The possessive pronominals of Hawaiian can occur either postnominally as analytic pronouns or prenominally, bound to the definite article. These pronouns express alienable/inalienable distinctions through the thematic vowel o/a." (e.g. your hat: ka pa:ale a'u or k-a'u pa:ale glossed as: DEF hat ALIENABLE.you.POSS or DEF.ALIENABLE.you.POSS hat). Most probably using the same structure for, say, niho (tooth) would be ungrammatical and it should be ka niho o'u/ko'u niho instead. Alfred --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Mon Feb 7 17:23:48 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 18:23:48 +0100 Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan Message-ID: Thanks to David for elaborating on this. > Lakhota has several verbs for showing possession. "Yuha" is used most commonly today, but apparently its more subtle meaning has to do with temporary possession, sort of like "hold". So you can't use it with kinship terms or body parts, i.e. the things that are inalienably possessed. This is very much parallel in structure to European transitive verbs for 'to have'(...) << That's exactly what I - pretty "lengthily" - wanted to point out referring to the "hand" thing in pretty different languages all around the globe. > For inalienable possessions you must use "yukhaN" (is this Alfred's "yuka"??), which means something more literally like 'exist for' -- 'two arms exist for me" -- not a very good translation, but perhaps you see the point (...) << Yes, I thought of _yukxaN_ too. Yet, since Leon focussed on alienable possession and (questionable) transitive use of _*yuka_, I think this is a typo. Of course, [yukxaN'] is different: "Igmu sinte yukan" (cats have tails). It also seems that different shades of meaning can be expressed according to the use of poss. prefix: managi vs. minagi (Oglala: my shadow vs. my spirit/ghost). > The absence of posession is the ordinary negative for yuha, but the negative of yukhaN is "nica" or "wanica" 'to fail to exist, to be absent'. I have never been sure I understood the difference between those two, but it sometimes looks as if one of them refers to the absence of something that you have to have, like fathers, as opposed to something that you might have, like brothers. I don't know which is which.<< I often fail to understand Buechel: according to B. _nica_ [ni'ca] is an active verb (va) -> manice/ninice (to be destute of, to have none of), whereas _wanica_ is an adjective (adj) with the meaning "none, without any" - but, at the same time giving the same forms as for _nica_ i.e. manica/ninica/unicapi! I'd tend to see wanica as a verb with a generic object. > Now isn't that a lot more than you wanted to know about possession marking in Lakhota? I don't think you can call this a "have" language or a "be" language. << Did I express this? Misunderstanding! I'm aware of the pretty complicated possession marking in Dakota and just wanted to focus on alienable possession in the sense of "I have money": Ich habe Geld. Tengo dinero. Mazaska bluha. Wo you qian. vs. Van p?nzem. Yesh li kesef. etc. Under this (limited) aspect, Dakota can be called a to-have language. Alfred From rankin at ku.edu Mon Feb 7 20:15:38 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 14:15:38 -0600 Subject: possessive constructions in siouan Message-ID: Are you fellows forwarding these comments to the guy who wrote me and asked the original question, or should one of us do that? Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: ""Alfred W. T?ting"" To: Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 11:23 AM Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan > Thanks to David for elaborating on this. > >> Lakhota has several verbs for showing possession. >> "Yuha" is used > most commonly today, but apparently its more subtle > meaning has to do with temporary possession, sort of > like "hold". So you can't use it with kinship terms > or body parts, i.e. the things that are inalienably > possessed. This is very much parallel in structure > to European transitive verbs for 'to have'(...) << > > That's exactly what I - pretty "lengthily" - wanted > to point out referring to the "hand" thing in pretty > different languages all around the globe. > > > > For inalienable possessions you must use "yukhaN" > > (is this > Alfred's "yuka"??), which means something more > literally like 'exist for' -- 'two arms exist for > me" -- not a very good translation, but perhaps you > see the point (...) << > > > Yes, I thought of _yukxaN_ too. Yet, since Leon > focussed on alienable possession and (questionable) > transitive use of _*yuka_, I think this is a typo. > Of course, [yukxaN'] is different: "Igmu sinte yukan" > (cats have tails). > > It also seems that different shades of meaning can be > expressed according to the use of poss. prefix: > managi vs. minagi (Oglala: my shadow vs. my > spirit/ghost). > > > > The absence of posession is the ordinary negative > > for yuha, but the > negative of yukhaN is "nica" or "wanica" 'to fail to > exist, to be absent'. I have never been sure I > understood the difference between those two, but it > sometimes looks as if one of them refers to the > absence of something that you have to have, like > fathers, as opposed to something that you might have, > like brothers. I don't know which is which.<< > > I often fail to understand Buechel: according to B. > _nica_ [ni'ca] is an active verb (va) -> > manice/ninice (to be destute of, to have none of), > whereas _wanica_ is an adjective (adj) with the > meaning "none, without any" - but, at the same time > giving the same forms as for _nica_ i.e. > manica/ninica/unicapi! I'd tend to see wanica as a > verb with a generic object. > > > > Now isn't that a lot more than you wanted to know > > about possession > marking in Lakhota? I don't think you can call this > a "have" language or a "be" language. << > > > Did I express this? Misunderstanding! I'm aware of > the pretty complicated possession marking in Dakota > and just wanted to focus on alienable possession in > the sense of "I have money": > Ich habe Geld. > Tengo dinero. > Mazaska bluha. > Wo you qian. > > vs. > > Van p?nzem. > Yesh li kesef. > etc. > > Under this (limited) aspect, Dakota can be called a > to-have language. > > > Alfred > > > > > > > > > From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon Feb 7 20:41:32 2005 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 13:41:32 -0700 Subject: possessive constructions in siouan In-Reply-To: <004701c50d51$cb4f6fa0$2eb5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: I have only been writing to the Siouanist list -- I'm not sure where the first question came from. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, R. Rankin wrote: > Are you fellows forwarding these comments to the guy > who wrote me and asked the original question, or should > one of us do that? > > Bob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ""Alfred W. T?ting"" > To: > Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 11:23 AM > Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan > > > > Thanks to David for elaborating on this. > > > >> Lakhota has several verbs for showing possession. > >> "Yuha" is used > > most commonly today, but apparently its more subtle > > meaning has to do with temporary possession, sort of > > like "hold". So you can't use it with kinship terms > > or body parts, i.e. the things that are inalienably > > possessed. This is very much parallel in structure > > to European transitive verbs for 'to have'(...) << > > > > That's exactly what I - pretty "lengthily" - wanted > > to point out referring to the "hand" thing in pretty > > different languages all around the globe. > > > > > > > For inalienable possessions you must use "yukhaN" > > > (is this > > Alfred's "yuka"??), which means something more > > literally like 'exist for' -- 'two arms exist for > > me" -- not a very good translation, but perhaps you > > see the point (...) << > > > > > > Yes, I thought of _yukxaN_ too. Yet, since Leon > > focussed on alienable possession and (questionable) > > transitive use of _*yuka_, I think this is a typo. > > Of course, [yukxaN'] is different: "Igmu sinte yukan" > > (cats have tails). > > > > It also seems that different shades of meaning can be > > expressed according to the use of poss. prefix: > > managi vs. minagi (Oglala: my shadow vs. my > > spirit/ghost). > > > > > > > The absence of posession is the ordinary negative > > > for yuha, but the > > negative of yukhaN is "nica" or "wanica" 'to fail to > > exist, to be absent'. I have never been sure I > > understood the difference between those two, but it > > sometimes looks as if one of them refers to the > > absence of something that you have to have, like > > fathers, as opposed to something that you might have, > > like brothers. I don't know which is which.<< > > > > I often fail to understand Buechel: according to B. > > _nica_ [ni'ca] is an active verb (va) -> > > manice/ninice (to be destute of, to have none of), > > whereas _wanica_ is an adjective (adj) with the > > meaning "none, without any" - but, at the same time > > giving the same forms as for _nica_ i.e. > > manica/ninica/unicapi! I'd tend to see wanica as a > > verb with a generic object. > > > > > > > Now isn't that a lot more than you wanted to know > > > about possession > > marking in Lakhota? I don't think you can call this > > a "have" language or a "be" language. << > > > > > > Did I express this? Misunderstanding! I'm aware of > > the pretty complicated possession marking in Dakota > > and just wanted to focus on alienable possession in > > the sense of "I have money": > > Ich habe Geld. > > Tengo dinero. > > Mazaska bluha. > > Wo you qian. > > > > vs. > > > > Van p?nzem. > > Yesh li kesef. > > etc. > > > > Under this (limited) aspect, Dakota can be called a > > to-have language. > > > > > > Alfred > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Feb 8 12:06:13 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:06:13 +0100 Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan Message-ID: > (Prof, Rankin) Are you fellows forwarding these comments to the guy who wrote me and asked the original question, or should one of us do that? << If this thread can be regarded as closed, I'd be grateful if you did. Alfred From rankin at ku.edu Tue Feb 8 17:22:23 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:22:23 -0600 Subject: possessive constructions in siouan Message-ID: No problem. Unless someone objects, I'll collect all the responses and forward them to the fellow who wrote me. Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of "Alfred W. T?ting" Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 6:06 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan > (Prof, Rankin) Are you fellows forwarding these comments to the guy who wrote me and asked the original question, or should one of us do that? << If this thread can be regarded as closed, I'd be grateful if you did. Alfred From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Feb 8 17:55:06 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:55:06 +0100 Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan Message-ID: > (Prof. Rankin) No problem. Unless someone objects, I'll collect all the responses and forward them to the fellow who wrote me. << He un lila pilamayayin ktelo. Alfred From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Feb 10 03:31:00 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:31:00 -0600 Subject: Unicode again Message-ID: Bob, After all the work on that Word doc for character-picking, I found Richard Ishida's site, http://people.w3.org/rishida/scripts/pickers/ See especially the IPA and Latin+ pickers. They're beautifully done and very easy to use (assuming your browser is Unicode-compliant). It's fun to sit and plunk away at them. (Note the simplicity of making composite characters--and the right-to-left text entry for Arabic and Hebrew.) I've downloaded them onto my hard-drive, and they work fine that way also, so you don't need to be on line. Best, Alan P.S. to the list: Bob's remarks about the difficulties of composing characters (with ogonek, I think) prompted me to make a list of the characters I encounter frequently in working with pronunciations and (mostly Native American) etymologies. The Word file that resulted is wholly superseded by Ishida's Web-based pickers. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Fri Feb 11 15:09:27 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:09:27 +0100 Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan Message-ID: > (Alan) After all the work on that Word doc for character-picking, I found Richard Ishida's site, http://people.w3.org/rishida/scripts/pickers/ See especially the IPA and Latin+ pickers. They're beautifully done and very easy to use (assuming your browser is Unicode-compliant). It's fun to sit and plunk away at them. (Note the simplicity of making composite characters--and the right-to-left text entry for Arabic and Hebrew.) I've downloaded them onto my hard-drive, and they work fine that way also, so you don't need to be on line. << It's done nicely, yet typing in a longer text, say in Lakota, is quite cumbersome. I did it with some Yidish below, but am quite unsure whether or not you will be able to read it under html encoding. It's from right to left but after copy paste, this format is not at all sufficient regarding right alignment. (I usually am using a script I wrote for Mac SILKey which with regard to typing in longer texts is much more comfortable. I also tried to do that for Dakota but for unknown reasons failed in addressing the different special characters - maybe because SILKey doesn't support Unicode?). ??????! ?'???? ??????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ????, ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????, ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? Alfred From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri Feb 11 15:34:40 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:34:40 -0600 Subject: FW: possessive constructions in siouan In-Reply-To: <420CCAA7.1050809@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: Alfred W. T?ting wrote: > It's done nicely, yet typing in a longer text, say in Lakota, is quite > cumbersome. I did it with some Yidish below, but am quite unsure whether > or not you will be able to read it under html encoding. It's from right > to left but after copy paste, this format is not at all sufficient > regarding right alignment. (I usually am using a script I wrote for Mac > SILKey which with regard to typing in longer texts is much more > comfortable. I also tried to do that for Dakota but for unknown reasons > failed in addressing the different special characters - maybe because > SILKey doesn't support Unicode?). For me, the Yiddish shows up as ????? Maybe you sent your message as plain (ascii) text rather than as HTML. (You have to set your email program to compose in HTML, and of course, your recipients have to have an HTML-compatible mail program too.) Alan From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Fri Feb 11 15:57:20 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?UTF-8?B?IkFsZnJlZCBXLiBUw7x0aW5nIg==?=) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:57:20 +0100 Subject: Unicode again Message-ID: Sorry for the erroneous subject in my previous post! I now have switched my mail program (Mac Netscape 7.1) to UTF8 and right align - and it seems to work so far. So, please be patient with me - only one more try with the Hebrew encoding :-) ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ??????. ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ??????? (diz zol zayn der letster farzukh do tsu shraybn a por verter af yidish. a dank far aykh ale un zayt gezunt. This shall be my last try here to write some words in Yiddish. Thanks to you all and good bye.) Alfred -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Fri Feb 11 17:28:21 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:28:21 -0600 Subject: Unicode again Message-ID: Hey, that looks great! And I can even read quite a bit of the transliterated version. Who knew?! But this brings up an important point. I've noticed in corresponding with members of the list that my unicode messages come out all bollixed up if the reader at the other end doesn't have his browser/email program set to "Unicode". Most of the characters that form the upper case on the numeral keys on the top row of the keyboard come out wrong. So setting your mailer for unicode is important. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: ""Alfred W. T?ting"" To: Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 9:57 AM Subject: Unicode again > Sorry for the erroneous subject in my previous post! > > I now have switched my mail program (Mac Netscape > 7.1) to UTF8 and right > align - and it seems to work so far. > So, please be patient with me - only one more try > with the Hebrew > encoding :-) > > ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ??? ?? ?????? ?? > ????? ?????? ??? ??????. ?? ????? > ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????? > ??????? > > > (diz zol zayn der letster farzukh do tsu shraybn a > por verter af yidish. > a dank far aykh ale un zayt gezunt. This shall be my > last try here to > write some words in Yiddish. Thanks to you all and > good bye.) > > Alfred > From rankin at ku.edu Fri Feb 11 17:31:52 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:31:52 -0600 Subject: Stoney beans. Message-ID: Dear all, Can anyone tell me if the Stoney dialects have a reflex of Dakotan /omnica/ 'beans'? Assiniboine apparently only has /uNkshukshuna/ (sh is s[hacek]) (thanks to Linda and to Doug's on-line dictionary for this). I'm curious whether Stoney is like this also. Bob From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Fri Feb 11 19:06:05 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?UTF-8?B?IkFsZnJlZCBXLiBUw7x0aW5nIg==?=) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:06:05 +0100 Subject: correction (Unicode again) Message-ID: Just one (last!) correction - my Yiddish's got pretty rusty ;-): ???? ????? ?*???? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??????. ??? ???????? ??? ??? ?????, ?? ?*???? ??? ?????????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? dos vertl "*diz" iz nisht rikhtik az's zol heysn af yidish "dos". tsum badoyern muz ikh zogn, az "*diz" iz daytshmerish un nisht kayn yidish. The little word "*diz" is not correct and should be "dos" instead. Sorry I've to say that "*diz" is a "Germanizm" and not correct Yiddish.) Alfred -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri Feb 11 20:13:23 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:13:23 -0600 Subject: Unicode again In-Reply-To: <001601c5105f$160f34c0$26b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Alfred's HTML Yiddish comes out beautifully for me too. I think it would be useful to know how many list-members can read Unicoded characters in HTML mail. Below are a few Lakota words chosen because they include non-ascii characters. The words are copied from Rood & Taylor's Sketch in HNAI 17: yuwa?s?te hu??ku [wakh????z?a] u?y??????kte |ec?ha??u?| I would appreciate it if everyone so inclined would respond off-list to let me know whether they can read the words properly. I'll then count the yes and no answers and send the tally to the list. It would help if you could use standard subject lines, "Unicode yes" and "Unicode no" (without the quotation marks). It would also be very helpful to know what email programs you used in your attempt. (I know that Web mail clients sometimes have trouble with Unicode.) Thanks, Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri Feb 11 22:29:23 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:29:23 -0600 Subject: Unicode (second try) Message-ID: Several people have already kindly responded: for none of them was my message fully readable, and for none were the discrepancies the same. So much for my naivete! I'm trying again, having figured out how to change my the character encoding for my outgoing mail to Unicode (UTF-8). (Jan Ullrich set his mail program to the character encoding UTF-8 for incoming mail, which should work for those who can control the way their incoming messages are displayed.) If this looks better to you than my first attempt, please let me know. My apologies for cluttering up your mailboxes, but I do think it's important to make a stab at using Unicode. In the long run, I think we'll all be using it by default (and it'll be much easier!) I /do/ appreciate all your contributions. Alan yuw??te yuw[a-acute][s-hacek]te hu??ku h[u-acute-hookunder]ku wakh????z?a [wakh[ae-circumflex-hookunder][half-length mark][z-hacek]a] u?y??????kte [u-hook under][low/mid back rounded vowel-circumflex-hookunder][half-length mark]kte e?h??? e[c-hacek]h[a-acute][glottal stop][u-hookunder] From rankin at ku.edu Sat Feb 12 16:56:08 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:56:08 -0600 Subject: More on phonetic characters Message-ID: I'm probably telling everybody what they already knew, but I didn't know this, so . . . . I was experimenting with CHARMAP.EXE, the little Microsoft utility that comes with Windows (just search for the file name), and found that if you 'select' a character from any of your fonts, you can 'drag and drop' it quickly and easily into your document. I had given up on this utility because its buttons, 'select' and 'copy' did NOT function with Microsoft Word. But the utility DOES work in the 'drag and drop' function. And it provides a more concise, but not as convenient and well-organized, interface than the Ishida files. There are some circumstances when charmap.exe is quicker and easier than using the 'insert symbol' utility within Word. And 'insert symbol' doesn't allow 'drag and drop' -- you have to follow the button routine. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Sat Feb 12 19:56:37 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:56:37 -0600 Subject: Dinosaur gets a Kaw name (Wichita Eagle-Beacon) Message-ID: Justin and I had a small hand in this. Bob R E L A T E D L I N K S ? THE NAMING OF A FOSSIL Kansas lends name to extinct sea lizard The 65-million-year-old species of ocean lizard will be officially named after the state this spring. BY BECCY TANNER The Wichita Eagle It has finally happened. Derby paleontologist Mike Everhart's 10-year quest to name a mosasaur fossil for Kansas has succeeded. Tylosaurus kansasensis will become the official Latin name of a giant sea lizard this spring when the name is published in the Netherlands Journal of Geosciences. Unofficially, this type of mosasaur -- a 25-foot-long sea lizard that lived in the ocean more than 65 million years ago -- will be known as "je-walushka-tanga" (pronounced jay wah-LOOSH-gah DUNG-gah"), meaning "great ocean lizard" in the language of the Kaw or Kanza tribe. "It's nice to name a mosasaur after Kansas -- after all, Kansas is where most of the mosasaurs have been found," said Larry Martin, curator of vertebrate paleontology at the University of Kansas Natural History Museum. "If you were going to pick a fossil that would typify Kansas, a mosasaur is a good choice." Everhart, who serves as the adjunct curator of paleontology at the Sternberg Museum of Natural History in Hays, said he wanted the name of the fossil to reflect Kansas's heritage. "The Indian name just makes the fossil a little more special," Everhart said. "There are hundreds of different kinds of fossils sitting in boxes in all kinds of places. Few of them have a life of their own. The T. rex Sue at the Field Museum (in Chicago) is one that does. I want this one to also come alive in people's imagination." This isn't the first fossil to be named "kansasensis," Everhart said. At least 20 other fossils bear that name, including several clams, a mouse and some trilobites. The new name also touts the state's fossil heritage and how these rolling farm plains were once at the bottom of a 600-foot-deep ocean. Since the late 1860s, the Smoky Hill chalk beds of western Kansas have been known throughout the world for containing fossils dating to the Cretaceous period, nearly 87 million years ago. The mosasaurs, some species of which could grow as long as 45 feet, were among the most terrifying animals of their time. "They ruled the oceans at the end of the age of the dinosaur," Everhart said. "They were a big predator." They were monsters that ate everything in their way, swallowing prey whole. "In Kansas, there were more than a dozen types of mosasaurs," Everhart said. "Worldwide, the number is more than 40." This particular species of mosasaur has been found only in Kansas, he said, and has been unnamed for nearly 140 years. There are 13 known specimens of this type of mosasaur -- nine of which are in the Sternberg Museum's collection in Hays. Anyone can name an unnamed fossil, Everhart said. But a name gains credibility only when it is published in a recognized journal. In his paper, Everhart wrote that the fossil is named after the Kanza Indians, "from which the name of the state... is derived and where all of the known specimens have been collected." The Kanza people originally lived in the Ohio River valley. By the early 1800s, they had moved to what is now the Kansas, or Kaw, River valley to claim a territory that covered roughly two-fifths of modern-day Kansas. In 1873, the tribe was forced to move to Indian Territory, in present-day Oklahoma. Justin McBride, language coordinator for the Kanza Language Project with the Kaw Nation of Oklahoma, said the naming is an honor. "The Kaw language is no longer spoken fluently," he said. "It is easy for mainstream Americans to think that native languages were of lesser importance. But they are every bit as rich as other languages in the world. I think Mike Everhart's wish of going back to the source, going back to 'kansasensis' is a very positive move." -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: state+ADs-kw+AD0-center6+ADs-c2+AD0-state+ADs-c3+AD0-state+AF8-homepage+ADs-pos+AD0-center6+ADs-group+AD0-rectangle+ADs-ord+AD0-1108237856102? Type: application/octet-stream Size: 29652 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: spacer.gif Type: image/gif Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available URL: From munro at ucla.edu Sat Feb 12 20:03:27 2005 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:03:27 -0800 Subject: Dinosaur gets a Kaw name (Wichita Eagle-Beacon) In-Reply-To: <001301c5113d$113af180$07b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Kind of too bad that the name as they write it has DUNG in it....:) But this is great! Congratulations! Pam R. Rankin wrote: > Justin and I had a small hand in this. Bob > > > > R E L A T E D L I N K S > ? THE NAMING OF A FOSSIL > > > > > Kansas lends name to extinct sea lizard > > The 65-million-year-old species of ocean lizard will be > officially named after the state this spring. > > BY BECCY TANNER > > The Wichita Eagle > > > It has finally happened. > > Derby paleontologist Mike Everhart's 10-year quest to name a > mosasaur fossil for Kansas has succeeded. > > Tylosaurus kansasensis will become the official Latin name of a > giant sea lizard this spring when the name is published in the > Netherlands Journal of Geosciences. > > Unofficially, this type of mosasaur -- a 25-foot-long sea lizard > that lived in the ocean more than 65 million years ago -- will be > known as "je-walushka-tanga" (pronounced jay wah-LOOSH-gah DUNG-gah"), > meaning "great ocean lizard" in the language of the Kaw or Kanza tribe. > > "It's nice to name a mosasaur after Kansas -- after all, Kansas > is where most of the mosasaurs have been found," said Larry Martin, > curator of vertebrate paleontology at the University of Kansas Natural > History Museum. > > "If you were going to pick a fossil that would typify Kansas, a > mosasaur is a good choice." > > Everhart, who serves as the adjunct curator of paleontology at > the Sternberg Museum of Natural History in Hays, said he wanted the > name of the fossil to reflect Kansas's heritage. > > "The Indian name just makes the fossil a little more special," > Everhart said. "There are hundreds of different kinds of fossils > sitting in boxes in all kinds of places. Few of them have a life of > their own. The T. rex Sue at the Field Museum (in Chicago) is one that > does. I want this one to also come alive in people's imagination." > > This isn't the first fossil to be named "kansasensis," Everhart > said. > > At least 20 other fossils bear that name, including several > clams, a mouse and some trilobites. > > The new name also touts the state's fossil heritage and how these > rolling farm plains were once at the bottom of a 600-foot-deep ocean. > > Since the late 1860s, the Smoky Hill chalk beds of western Kansas > have been known throughout the world for containing fossils dating to > the Cretaceous period, nearly 87 million years ago. > > The mosasaurs, some species of which could grow as long as 45 > feet, were among the most terrifying animals of their time. > > "They ruled the oceans at the end of the age of the dinosaur," > Everhart said. "They were a big predator." > > They were monsters that ate everything in their way, swallowing > prey whole. > > "In Kansas, there were more than a dozen types of mosasaurs," > Everhart said. "Worldwide, the number is more than 40." > > This particular species of mosasaur has been found only in > Kansas, he said, and has been unnamed for nearly 140 years. There are > 13 known specimens of this type of mosasaur -- nine of which are in > the Sternberg Museum's collection in Hays. > > Anyone can name an unnamed fossil, Everhart said. But a name > gains credibility only when it is published in a recognized journal. > > In his paper, Everhart wrote that the fossil is named after the > Kanza Indians, "from which the name of the state... is derived and > where all of the known specimens have been collected." > > The Kanza people originally lived in the Ohio River valley. By > the early 1800s, they had moved to what is now the Kansas, or Kaw, > River valley to claim a territory that covered roughly two-fifths of > modern-day Kansas. > > In 1873, the tribe was forced to move to Indian Territory, in > present-day Oklahoma. > > Justin McBride, language coordinator for the Kanza Language > Project with the Kaw Nation of Oklahoma, said the naming is an honor. > > "The Kaw language is no longer spoken fluently," he said. "It is > easy for mainstream Americans to think that native languages were of > lesser importance. But they are every bit as rich as other languages > in the world. I think Mike Everhart's wish of going back to the > source, going back to 'kansasensis' is a very positive move." > > -- Pamela Munro, Professor, Linguistics, UCLA UCLA Box 951543 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/munro/munro.htm From rankin at ku.edu Sun Feb 13 15:21:22 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:21:22 -0600 Subject: Dinosaur gets a Kaw name (Wichita Eagle-Beacon) Message-ID: Heh, heh -- yeah, those are the risks you run when 'sea' is 'je' and 'dung' is 'zhe'. Nice minimal pair. Maybe the museum has a dinosaur coprolite that we can name 'zhe tanga'? Bob ----- Original Message ----- > Kind of too bad that the name as they write it has > DUNG in it....:) From cstelfer at ucalgary.ca Tue Feb 15 22:58:34 2005 From: cstelfer at ucalgary.ca (cstelfer at ucalgary.ca) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:58:34 -0700 Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -And a dictionary or two wouldn't go amiss either. I'm especially > interested in the impact that Cree has had on Stoney. > > Anthony I responded to this comment earlier by saying that I didn't think Cree had had any impact on Stoney, however, I forgot that the Paul Band reserves are mixed with both Cree and Stoney people. Unfortunately to my knowledge Stoney is not really spoken there anymore, which is not surprising considering the linguistic pressures exerted by both English and Cree. The Northern Stoney data I have is from the Alexis Band, so it has no Cree influence. If there was any Cree influence on the Paul Band dialect of Stoney, I think it would be quite hard to detect it at this point in time. Corey. > >>>> rankin at ku.edu 25/01/2005 16:01:39 >>> >> I was talking with John Newman at Edmonton in October >> and he felt that the two major Stoney dialect clusters >> might be different in this regard. > >> I guess I should always distinguish between South Stoney (Morley, > Eden > Valley and Big Horn reserves) and North Stoney (Alexis and Paul bands). > > The South Stoneys have apparently lost the glottalized set of stops > and > collapsed them with the aspirated series, but the Northern group have > not. > > And the South group has those neat pharyngeals. . . . > > Newman said the two groups migrated to their current locations in > southern and central Alberta via very different routes, suggesting > some > significant time depth between the dialects. Gee, a coupla good > reference grammars would be a good thing! :-) Bob > > ----------------------------------------------------- > This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions > presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent > those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended > recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and > all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, > distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the > intended recipient. > > The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to > identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor > content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access > business communications during staff absence. > > Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments > are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to > ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge > Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. > <<<>>> > From rankin at ku.edu Tue Feb 15 23:46:31 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:46:31 -0600 Subject: Siouan/Caddoan linguistics conference--2005. Message-ID: Let me reiterate what I guess I wasn't totally clear about before. Our plans at present are to hold the SCLC at the Kaw Tribal complex in Kaw City, Oklahoma on June 17, 18 and the morning of the 19th. (That's Friday, Saturday and Sunday.) We have not yet reserved rooms in Ponca City, OK motels for this and will announce it here on the list when we do. If anything catastrophic gets in the way (for example of the Conoco Oil Co. books all the rooms in town that weekend), we will also let everyone know immediately. I'll post when I have more. There'll be a "Call for Papers" later in the Spring, but, as usual, we'll only expect some sort of title and info on how much time you'll need, etc. This was the weekend that seemed to be best for everyone who responded. We hope that this will be the weekend that the Osages skip in their dance schedule. That way, any of them who wish may attend our meetings and any linguists wishing to attend one or more of the Osages dances on adjacent weekends may plan to come for the SCLC a week early or late and see the dancing too More later as things develop.. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 16 06:38:06 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:38:06 -0700 Subject: Dakota Dialects In-Reply-To: <52BA675BF5A226458392EB21207B522A014E2DD2@iu-mssg-mbx06.exchange.iu.edu> Message-ID: I've been meaning to get back to the issue of Dakota dialects, because I thought that I'd done a rather poor job of the subject, mainly by wading in without rereading any of the relevant materials. I wanted to particularly thank Doug Parks for clarifying and correcting various points. On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Parks, Douglas R. wrote: > Allow me to clarify several points that have been under discussion. > > (1) The Yanktonai, like the Yanktons, identify themselves in English as > "Dakotas." There is no historical evidence that the Yanktonai ever > identified themselves as nakhota, and I have never heard a contemporary > speaker (and here I mean on all the five reservations where the > subdialects are spoken) self-identify using an n. Cook in 1880-82 > similarly recorded the term with an initial d. The history of the > fallacy that Yanktonais referred to themselves with an n is given in > DeMallie's and my paper, pp. 242-48. Having relocating my copy of the paper - it took me a while to realize that I had an actual copy of the journal volume - I see that I had indeed forgotten the major section of this paper that recaps and summarizes the history of the understanding of Dakota dialects, which would have answered my questions on this subject. (See a subsequent posting for details.) > (2) There actually has been a fair amount of work accomplished on > Yanktonai, although unpublished. Based on work with speakers from > Standing Rock and Devil's Lake, but including the other communities, > I've compiled a reasonably extensive dictionary database, and Ray has > recorded and transcribed a modest collection of texts. (See HNAI > 13(1):98.) I feel that I owe Doug an apology for overlooking this. In fact, now that I am reminded of it, work on Yanktonai is mentioned at the AISRI Web site, e.g., http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri/projects/research.html. What I seem remember now is that at one point there were some sound files that included words in Yanktonai. > (3) For the Ochethi Shakowin, see DeMallie (HNAI 13(2):735-48). Next order of business! I've put off ordering this for various reasons, but that clearly can't go on. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 16 08:19:01 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:19:01 -0700 Subject: Dakota Dialects In-Reply-To: <52BA675BF5A226458392EB21207B522A014E2DD2@iu-mssg-mbx06.exchange.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Parks, Douglas R. wrote: > ... The history of the fallacy that Yanktonais referred to themselves > with an n is given in DeMallie's and my paper, pp. 242-48. James Howard > is the 20th century promoter of the use of the n form, and his > assertions have been accepted by many, particularly younger people who > like the "neat" classification that it provides. JEK: > Which would indicate that the canonicalization of the d-n-l division was > subsequent to Riggs. I wonder what the history of it was? From: Parks, Douglas R. and Raymond DeMallie. 1992. Sioux, Assiniboine, and Stoney Dialects: A Classification. Anthropological Linguistics 34, Nos. 1-4, Special Issue: Florence M. Voegelin Mwemorial Volume, pp. 233-255. This is a summary of the survey that Parks & DeMallie present, pp. 234-240. Their classificaiton of Dakota dialects is inserted first for reference. Parks & DeMallie Santee- Yankton- Teton Assiniboine Stoney (1992:251) Sisseton Yanktonai Gallatin Eastern Yankton Teton Assiniboine (1836:124) Dahcota The Pond, Riggs, et al., mission(s) and associated linguistic work began in 1834. Riggs 1) IsaNti IhaNktoNwaN TitoNwaN ----- (1852:viii-ix) 2) SisitoNwaN (Lake Traverse) Riggs discusses some subdialects of IsaNti and distinguishes it generally from the variety of SisitoNwaN spoken at Lake Traverse. Supressing these distinctions arising from his closer study of Santee, he distinguishes three dialects, but without reference to Assiniboine and Stoney. In other words, up to this point his analysis concurs with that of Gallatin. Riggs (1893:188) mentions the Assiniboine dialect, saying "Their language differs less from the Dakota in general, than the dialects of the Dakota do from each other. ... The Assiniboin are said to have broken off from the Pine Shooters (Wazikute), a branch of the IhaNktoNwaNna." From these two remarks, the first of which is misinformed and the second of which is unattributed, one might deduce, albeit falsely, that Assiniboine is much like Yanktonais, which would presumably be much like Yankton, with Assiniboine differing less from Yankton than Yankton differed from Santee, etc. In spite of this, the early Siouanists followed Gallatin's lead and listed four dialects of Dakota. Dorsey (1885:919) Santee Yankton Teton Assiniboine Boas & Swanton Santee Yankton Teton Assiniboine (1911:879) Problems crept in with Lowie's Indians of the Plains. Lowie evidently made the deductions that Riggs (1893) supports. Lowie (1954:8) Eastern Central Western (Dakota) (Nakota) (Lakota) (var. Assiniboine) Howard's work on the Dakota separates Assiniboine back out, but retains the erronious characterization of Yankton(-Yanktonais) as like Assiniboine. Howard Dakota *Nakota Lakota Nakoda (1960:249, n. 2; (Santee) (Yankton) (Teton) (Assiniboine) 1966:4) Howard's scheme in particular, caught the attention of anthropologists, and was widely cited thereafter. Hassrick (1964:6), Powers (1972:7, 1977:11), Schusky (1975:3), Grobsmith (1981:3), Elias (1988:xiii), Biolsi (1992:4) I thought it might be interesting to see what the Siouan comparativists thought, since their fell into this time range. Interestingly, they actually say very little, perhaps sensing that the issue was a vexed one. Wolff Santee Teton (1950 I:63, 1951) Matthews (1958:5-6) Santee Yankton Teton Matthews (1959:253) Santee Teton Assiniboine - Montana - Canada Wolff's list is certainly not intended to be complete. Matthews seems implicitly to follow Lowie or Howard, but comments in his kinship term study that Canadian Assiniboine (perhaps meaning Stoney) differs dialectally from Montana Assiniboine. Incidentally, Alexander Lesser's 1958 dissertation on Siouan Kinship finds it convenient to discuss Dakotan terminology in terms of Santee, Yankton, Teton, and Assiniboine lists, and he finds some diffferences between his two Assiniboine authorities, Morgan and Lowie, that seem to come down to a difference between Assiniboine and Stoney. At last certain forms are listed specifically as Stoney. Lesser says of the Assiniboine "according to Lowie, their speech must be considered at least a major dialect of Dakota, differing from Santee and Teton perhaps to a greater degree than these dialects differ amongst themselves." (Lesser 1958:14) It's not clear what work of Lowie's he is citing, but the implication is that it is Lowie's 1910 monograph The Assiniboine. So, it appears that Lowie's perceptions of Nakota are based on Assiniboine, and that it is Yankton-Yanktonais that is being overlooked. Returning to the presentation in Parks & DeMallie, we join the company of the more recent Siouanists: Chafe (1973:1179) Santee Yankton Teton (Dakota proper) & Assin. (Lakota) (Nakota) Chafe follows Lowie, essentially, but indicates specifically that there is a Canadian variety of Assiniboine called Stoney. At this point more extensive field experience, close study of the earlier materials, and, I suspect, rumors of the Dakota Dialect Survey's findings, begin to assert themselves again in the Siouanist community. Shaw, for example, distinguishes essentially the same scheme as Parks & DeMallie. Shaw Santee Yankton Teton Assiniboine Stoney (1976:4-5) - MdewaNtuNwaN - WaxpetuNwaN Shaw's Santee subdialects are not intended to be exhaustive, I think. Rood Santee Yankton Teton Yanktonai Assiniboine Stoney (1979:236) Rood's list is again the modern one, but with Yanktonai retained as separate, probably on the strength of the original comments in Riggs. The most complete study, and the best documented linguistically (and historiographically) is Parks & DeMallie 1992. However, Riggs and Shaw provide a certain number of comparative forms, too. From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Wed Feb 16 09:46:02 2005 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:46:02 +0000 Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney. Message-ID: What about Stoney items such as the Cree-derived word meaning 'money'? Anthony >>> cstelfer at ucalgary.ca 15/02/2005 22:58:34 >>> > -And a dictionary or two wouldn't go amiss either. I'm especially > interested in the impact that Cree has had on Stoney. > > Anthony I responded to this comment earlier by saying that I didn't think Cree had had any impact on Stoney, however, I forgot that the Paul Band reserves are mixed with both Cree and Stoney people. Unfortunately to my knowledge Stoney is not really spoken there anymore, which is not surprising considering the linguistic pressures exerted by both English and Cree. The Northern Stoney data I have is from the Alexis Band, so it has no Cree influence. If there was any Cree influence on the Paul Band dialect of Stoney, I think it would be quite hard to detect it at this point in time. Corey. > >>>> rankin at ku.edu 25/01/2005 16:01:39 >>> >> I was talking with John Newman at Edmonton in October >> and he felt that the two major Stoney dialect clusters >> might be different in this regard. > >> I guess I should always distinguish between South Stoney (Morley, > Eden > Valley and Big Horn reserves) and North Stoney (Alexis and Paul bands). > > The South Stoneys have apparently lost the glottalized set of stops > and > collapsed them with the aspirated series, but the Northern group have > not. > > And the South group has those neat pharyngeals. . . . > > Newman said the two groups migrated to their current locations in > southern and central Alberta via very different routes, suggesting > some > significant time depth between the dialects. Gee, a coupla good > reference grammars would be a good thing! :-) Bob > > ----------------------------------------------------- > This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions > presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent > those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended > recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and > all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, > distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the > intended recipient. > > The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to > identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor > content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access > business communications during staff absence. > > Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments > are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to > ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge > Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. > <<<>>> > From parksd at indiana.edu Wed Feb 16 16:15:18 2005 From: parksd at indiana.edu (Parks, Douglas R.) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:15:18 -0500 Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney. Message-ID: Maybe you people are too new to the field, but Allan Taylor addressed this very issue in a paper delivered at the AAA ca. 1980. It isn't published, so perhaps John can get a copy of it from Allan and maybe scan it for web "publication." Allan cites data, not hunches. Doug __________________________________________________ Douglas R. Parks Professor of Anthropology Associate Director, American Indian Studies Research Institute Indiana University 422 North Indiana Avenue Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone 812.855.4123 Fax 812.855.7529 || E-mail parksd at indiana.edu || AISRI web site http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Grant Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 4:46 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Assiniboine and Stoney. What about Stoney items such as the Cree-derived word meaning 'money'? Anthony >>> cstelfer at ucalgary.ca 15/02/2005 22:58:34 >>> > -And a dictionary or two wouldn't go amiss either. I'm especially > interested in the impact that Cree has had on Stoney. > > Anthony I responded to this comment earlier by saying that I didn't think Cree had had any impact on Stoney, however, I forgot that the Paul Band reserves are mixed with both Cree and Stoney people. Unfortunately to my knowledge Stoney is not really spoken there anymore, which is not surprising considering the linguistic pressures exerted by both English and Cree. The Northern Stoney data I have is from the Alexis Band, so it has no Cree influence. If there was any Cree influence on the Paul Band dialect of Stoney, I think it would be quite hard to detect it at this point in time. Corey. > >>>> rankin at ku.edu 25/01/2005 16:01:39 >>> >> I was talking with John Newman at Edmonton in October >> and he felt that the two major Stoney dialect clusters >> might be different in this regard. > >> I guess I should always distinguish between South Stoney (Morley, > Eden > Valley and Big Horn reserves) and North Stoney (Alexis and Paul bands). > > The South Stoneys have apparently lost the glottalized set of stops > and > collapsed them with the aspirated series, but the Northern group have > not. > > And the South group has those neat pharyngeals. . . . > > Newman said the two groups migrated to their current locations in > southern and central Alberta via very different routes, suggesting > some > significant time depth between the dialects. Gee, a coupla good > reference grammars would be a good thing! :-) Bob > > ----------------------------------------------------- > This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions > presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent > those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended > recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and > all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, > distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the > intended recipient. > > The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to > identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor > content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access > business communications during staff absence. > > Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments > are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to > ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge > Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. > <<<>>> > From mary.marino at usask.ca Wed Feb 16 16:39:47 2005 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:39:47 -0600 Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney. Message-ID: Thanks, Doug. I have seen references to this paper, and if Alan or John, or someone else, could get it into circulation it would be much appreciated. Mary At 10:15 AM 2/16/2005, you wrote: >Maybe you people are too new to the field, but Allan Taylor addressed >this very issue in a paper delivered at the AAA ca. 1980. It isn't >published, so perhaps John can get a copy of it from Allan and maybe >scan it for web "publication." Allan cites data, not hunches. > >Doug > >__________________________________________________ > >Douglas R. Parks >Professor of Anthropology >Associate Director, American Indian Studies Research Institute >Indiana University >422 North Indiana Avenue >Bloomington, IN 47408 > >Phone 812.855.4123 >Fax 812.855.7529 || E-mail parksd at indiana.edu || AISRI web site >http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu >[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Grant >Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 4:46 AM >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: RE: Assiniboine and Stoney. > >What about Stoney items such as the Cree-derived word meaning 'money'? > >Anthony > > >>> cstelfer at ucalgary.ca 15/02/2005 22:58:34 >>> > > -And a dictionary or two wouldn't go amiss either. I'm especially > > interested in the impact that Cree has had on Stoney. > > > > Anthony > >I responded to this comment earlier by saying that I didn't think Cree >had >had any impact on Stoney, however, I forgot that the Paul Band >reserves >are mixed with both Cree and Stoney people. Unfortunately to my >knowledge >Stoney is not really spoken there anymore, which is not surprising >considering the linguistic pressures exerted by both English and Cree. > >The Northern Stoney data I have is from the Alexis Band, so it has no >Cree >influence. If there was any Cree influence on the Paul Band dialect >of >Stoney, I think it would be quite hard to detect it at this point in >time. > >Corey. > > > > > > > >>>> rankin at ku.edu 25/01/2005 16:01:39 >>> > >> I was talking with John Newman at Edmonton in October > >> and he felt that the two major Stoney dialect clusters > >> might be different in this regard. > > > >> I guess I should always distinguish between South Stoney (Morley, > > Eden > > Valley and Big Horn reserves) and North Stoney (Alexis and Paul >bands). > > > > The South Stoneys have apparently lost the glottalized set of stops > > and > > collapsed them with the aspirated series, but the Northern group >have > > not. > > > > And the South group has those neat pharyngeals. . . . > > > > Newman said the two groups migrated to their current locations in > > southern and central Alberta via very different routes, suggesting > > some > > significant time depth between the dialects. Gee, a coupla good > > reference grammars would be a good thing! :-) Bob > > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely >for > > the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or >opinions > > presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily >represent > > those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the >intended > > recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete >it and > > all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, >disclose, > > distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not >the > > intended recipient. > > > > The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to > > identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively >monitor > > content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to >access > > business communications during staff absence. > > > > Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any >attachments > > are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient >to > > ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by >Edge > > Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. > > <<<>>> > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Feb 16 18:59:19 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:59:19 -0700 Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney. In-Reply-To: <52BA675BF5A226458392EB21207B522A966B81@iu-mssg-mbx06.exchange.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Parks, Douglas R. wrote: > Maybe you people are too new to the field, but Allan Taylor addressed > this very issue in a paper delivered at the AAA ca. 1980. It isn't > published, so perhaps John can get a copy of it from Allan and maybe > scan it for web "publication." Allan cites data, not hunches. It came out in the Siouan and Caddoan Newsletter that David Rood used to send out. I actually looked for my copy of it last night, but I haven't located it yet. I'll keep looking. I don't suppose it's one John Boyle has on file? I remember Allan addressed the issue of Cree influence, and I think he might have been favorable, but I don't recall details. Presumably any Cree influence antedated the present reserve situations. From parksd at indiana.edu Wed Feb 16 19:35:00 2005 From: parksd at indiana.edu (Parks, Douglas R.) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:35:00 -0500 Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney. Message-ID: John, Thanks for the reminder---I'd forgotten that it was published. I have a complete set of Siouan Newsletters at home and can provide a citation in the morning. Yes, Allan felt (and probably still does) that Stoney---both dialects, as I recall---showed definite Cree influence. In fact, Assiniboine, too, has pretty clearly been influenced by Cree. And it's not surprising since Crees and Assiniboines have been closely associated historically, with intermarriage common, and today (actually, late 20th century) many Assiniboines, especially in Canada, speak Cree as well as A. Doug __________________________________________________ Douglas R. Parks Professor of Anthropology Associate Director, American Indian Studies Research Institute Indiana University 422 North Indiana Avenue Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone 812.855.4123 Fax 812.855.7529 || E-mail parksd at indiana.edu || AISRI web site http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Koontz John E Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 1:59 PM To: Siouan List Subject: RE: Assiniboine and Stoney. On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Parks, Douglas R. wrote: > Maybe you people are too new to the field, but Allan Taylor addressed > this very issue in a paper delivered at the AAA ca. 1980. It isn't > published, so perhaps John can get a copy of it from Allan and maybe > scan it for web "publication." Allan cites data, not hunches. It came out in the Siouan and Caddoan Newsletter that David Rood used to send out. I actually looked for my copy of it last night, but I haven't located it yet. I'll keep looking. I don't suppose it's one John Boyle has on file? I remember Allan addressed the issue of Cree influence, and I think he might have been favorable, but I don't recall details. Presumably any Cree influence antedated the present reserve situations. From mckay020 at umn.edu Wed Feb 16 21:26:22 2005 From: mckay020 at umn.edu (cantemaza) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:26:22 -0600 Subject: Dakota Dialects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dr. Parks, How can I get a copy of this publication"Sioux, Assiniboine, and Stoney Dialects: A Classification"? Thanks much. Also, it is intersting when visitng with speakers on this subject. I had a long conversation with an elder at the Lake Andes Dakota Language. She spoke Ihanktunwan Dakota and I spoke Bdewakantunwan Dakota and we talked about the differences in the words and where we come from. She said they considered themselves to be Dakotaand they spoke Dakota, not Nakota or Nakoda. Also, I had a chance to speak briefly with a woman from Fort Belknap Reservation and she said she was Nakota. We swapped emails, and I said Pidamayaye do (thank you). She asked about four times, "Ake! (again!)" because she didn't know what I was saying. Then I said it slowly and then she said "Ohhh, OK, you mean Pinamayaye." -Cantemaza de miye do. (Neil McKay) University of Minnesota Dakota Language Dept. Koontz John E wrote: >On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Parks, Douglas R. wrote: > > >>... The history of the fallacy that Yanktonais referred to themselves >>with an n is given in DeMallie's and my paper, pp. 242-48. James Howard >>is the 20th century promoter of the use of the n form, and his >>assertions have been accepted by many, particularly younger people who >>like the "neat" classification that it provides. >> >> > >JEK: > > > >>Which would indicate that the canonicalization of the d-n-l division was >>subsequent to Riggs. I wonder what the history of it was? >> >> > >From: > >Parks, Douglas R. and Raymond DeMallie. 1992. Sioux, Assiniboine, and >Stoney Dialects: A Classification. Anthropological Linguistics 34, Nos. >1-4, Special Issue: Florence M. Voegelin Mwemorial Volume, pp. 233-255. > >This is a summary of the survey that Parks & DeMallie present, pp. >234-240. Their classificaiton of Dakota dialects is inserted first for >reference. > >Parks & DeMallie Santee- Yankton- Teton Assiniboine Stoney >(1992:251) Sisseton Yanktonai > > > >Gallatin Eastern Yankton Teton Assiniboine >(1836:124) Dahcota > >The Pond, Riggs, et al., mission(s) and associated linguistic work began >in 1834. > >Riggs 1) IsaNti IhaNktoNwaN TitoNwaN ----- >(1852:viii-ix) 2) SisitoNwaN > (Lake Traverse) > >Riggs discusses some subdialects of IsaNti and distinguishes it generally >from the variety of SisitoNwaN spoken at Lake Traverse. Supressing these >distinctions arising from his closer study of Santee, he distinguishes >three dialects, but without reference to Assiniboine and Stoney. In other >words, up to this point his analysis concurs with that of Gallatin. > >Riggs (1893:188) mentions the Assiniboine dialect, saying "Their language >differs less from the Dakota in general, than the dialects of the Dakota >do from each other. ... The Assiniboin are said to have broken off from >the Pine Shooters (Wazikute), a branch of the IhaNktoNwaNna." From these >two remarks, the first of which is misinformed and the second of which is >unattributed, one might deduce, albeit falsely, that Assiniboine is much >like Yanktonais, which would presumably be much like Yankton, with >Assiniboine differing less from Yankton than Yankton differed from Santee, >etc. > >In spite of this, the early Siouanists followed Gallatin's lead and listed >four dialects of Dakota. > >Dorsey (1885:919) Santee Yankton Teton Assiniboine > >Boas & Swanton Santee Yankton Teton Assiniboine >(1911:879) > >Problems crept in with Lowie's Indians of the Plains. Lowie evidently >made the deductions that Riggs (1893) supports. > >Lowie (1954:8) Eastern Central Western > (Dakota) (Nakota) (Lakota) > (var. Assiniboine) > >Howard's work on the Dakota separates Assiniboine back out, but retains >the erronious characterization of Yankton(-Yanktonais) as like >Assiniboine. > >Howard Dakota *Nakota Lakota Nakoda >(1960:249, n. 2; (Santee) (Yankton) (Teton) (Assiniboine) >1966:4) > >Howard's scheme in particular, caught the attention of anthropologists, >and was widely cited thereafter. > >Hassrick (1964:6), Powers (1972:7, 1977:11), Schusky (1975:3), Grobsmith >(1981:3), Elias (1988:xiii), Biolsi (1992:4) > >I thought it might be interesting to see what the Siouan comparativists >thought, since their fell into this time range. Interestingly, they >actually say very little, perhaps sensing that the issue was a vexed one. > >Wolff Santee Teton >(1950 I:63, 1951) > >Matthews (1958:5-6) Santee Yankton Teton >Matthews (1959:253) Santee Teton Assiniboine > - Montana > - Canada > >Wolff's list is certainly not intended to be complete. Matthews seems >implicitly to follow Lowie or Howard, but comments in his kinship term >study that Canadian Assiniboine (perhaps meaning Stoney) differs >dialectally from Montana Assiniboine. > >Incidentally, Alexander Lesser's 1958 dissertation on Siouan Kinship finds >it convenient to discuss Dakotan terminology in terms of Santee, Yankton, >Teton, and Assiniboine lists, and he finds some diffferences between his >two Assiniboine authorities, Morgan and Lowie, that seem to come down to a >difference between Assiniboine and Stoney. At last certain forms are >listed specifically as Stoney. > >Lesser says of the Assiniboine "according to Lowie, their speech must be >considered at least a major dialect of Dakota, differing from Santee and >Teton perhaps to a greater degree than these dialects differ amongst >themselves." (Lesser 1958:14) It's not clear what work of Lowie's he is >citing, but the implication is that it is Lowie's 1910 monograph The >Assiniboine. So, it appears that Lowie's perceptions of Nakota are based >on Assiniboine, and that it is Yankton-Yanktonais that is being >overlooked. > >Returning to the presentation in Parks & DeMallie, we join the company of >the more recent Siouanists: > >Chafe (1973:1179) Santee Yankton Teton > (Dakota proper) & Assin. (Lakota) > (Nakota) > >Chafe follows Lowie, essentially, but indicates specifically that there is >a Canadian variety of Assiniboine called Stoney. > >At this point more extensive field experience, close study of the earlier >materials, and, I suspect, rumors of the Dakota Dialect Survey's findings, >begin to assert themselves again in the Siouanist community. Shaw, for >example, distinguishes essentially the same scheme as Parks & DeMallie. > >Shaw Santee Yankton Teton Assiniboine Stoney >(1976:4-5) - MdewaNtuNwaN > - WaxpetuNwaN > >Shaw's Santee subdialects are not intended to be exhaustive, I think. > >Rood Santee Yankton Teton Yanktonai Assiniboine Stoney >(1979:236) > >Rood's list is again the modern one, but with Yanktonai retained as >separate, probably on the strength of the original comments in Riggs. > >The most complete study, and the best documented linguistically (and >historiographically) is Parks & DeMallie 1992. However, Riggs and Shaw >provide a certain number of comparative forms, too. > > > >. > > > From parksd at indiana.edu Thu Feb 17 18:07:49 2005 From: parksd at indiana.edu (Parks, Douglas R.) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:07:49 -0500 Subject: Taylor reference Message-ID: The reference to Allan Taylor's paper is: "Variation in Canadian Assiniboine" in Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Newsletter, no. 4 (June 1981), pp. 9-16. __________________________________________________ Douglas R. Parks Professor of Anthropology Associate Director, American Indian Studies Research Institute Indiana University 422 North Indiana Avenue Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone 812.855.4123 Fax 812.855.7529 || E-mail parksd at indiana.edu || AISRI web site http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lcumberl at indiana.edu Thu Feb 17 20:17:40 2005 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:17:40 -0500 Subject: Taylor reference In-Reply-To: <52BA675BF5A226458392EB21207B522A966B8E@iu-mssg-mbx06.exchange.iu.edu> Message-ID: Thanks - It turns out I have a copy already. -L Quoting "Parks, Douglas R." : > The reference to Allan Taylor's paper is: > > "Variation in Canadian Assiniboine" in Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics > Newsletter, no. 4 (June 1981), pp. 9-16. > > __________________________________________________ > > Douglas R. Parks > Professor of Anthropology > Associate Director, American Indian Studies Research Institute > Indiana University > 422 North Indiana Avenue > Bloomington, IN 47408 > > Phone 812.855.4123 > Fax 812.855.7529 || E-mail parksd at indiana.edu > || AISRI web site > http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri > > > From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Fri Feb 18 09:04:37 2005 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:04:37 +0000 Subject: Taylor reference Message-ID: How can one get a copy of this? The Parks and DeMallie article is no problem for me 9Doug very kindly sent me an offprint), but Allan's papers on Assiniboine (I believe there's also one of his on Assiniboine in a Canadian anthropology journal) are, um, rather hard to get hold of over here in Britain. Anthony >>> lcumberl at indiana.edu 17/02/2005 20:17:40 >>> Thanks - It turns out I have a copy already. -L Quoting "Parks, Douglas R." : > The reference to Allan Taylor's paper is: > > "Variation in Canadian Assiniboine" in Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics > Newsletter, no. 4 (June 1981), pp. 9-16. > > __________________________________________________ > > Douglas R. Parks > Professor of Anthropology > Associate Director, American Indian Studies Research Institute > Indiana University > 422 North Indiana Avenue > Bloomington, IN 47408 > > Phone 812.855.4123 > Fax 812.855.7529 || E-mail parksd at indiana.edu > || AISRI web site > http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri > > > ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From lcumberl at indiana.edu Fri Feb 18 15:33:00 2005 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:33:00 -0500 Subject: Taylor reference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I could scan my copy as .jpg (and if you want, save the .jpg's as full-size pages in Word), if no one has a better suggestion. I would have to send each page as a separate attachment. Linda Quoting Anthony Grant : > How can one get a copy of this? The Parks and DeMallie article is no > problem for me 9Doug very kindly sent me an offprint), but Allan's > papers on Assiniboine (I believe there's also one of his on Assiniboine > in a Canadian anthropology journal) are, um, rather hard to get hold of > over here in Britain. > > Anthony > > >>> lcumberl at indiana.edu 17/02/2005 20:17:40 >>> > Thanks - It turns out I have a copy already. -L > > Quoting "Parks, Douglas R." : > > > The reference to Allan Taylor's paper is: > > > > "Variation in Canadian Assiniboine" in Siouan and Caddoan > Linguistics > > Newsletter, no. 4 (June 1981), pp. 9-16. > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Douglas R. Parks > > Professor of Anthropology > > Associate Director, American Indian Studies Research Institute > > Indiana University > > 422 North Indiana Avenue > > Bloomington, IN 47408 > > > > Phone 812.855.4123 > > Fax 812.855.7529 || E-mail parksd at indiana.edu > > || AISRI web site > > http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri From are2 at buffalo.edu Fri Feb 18 16:07:21 2005 From: are2 at buffalo.edu (are2 at buffalo.edu) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:07:21 -0500 Subject: Taylor reference In-Reply-To: <1108740780.42160aace02ae@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: If you scan it and send it to me, I could post it at the SACC website (which I need to update soon anyway). That way it'd be more accessible to everyone and you wouldn't have to keep sending it. I'd send the exact link to the list as soon as it's up. It'd be nicer if say someone had an electronic version of the text already to post (smaller file size), but I don't have a much better solution. Best regards, Ardis Quoting lcumberl at indiana.edu: > I could scan my copy as .jpg (and if you want, save the .jpg's as > full-size > pages in Word), if no one has a better suggestion. I would have to > send each > page as a separate attachment. > > Linda > > Quoting Anthony Grant : > > > How can one get a copy of this? The Parks and DeMallie article is > no > > problem for me 9Doug very kindly sent me an offprint), but Allan's > > papers on Assiniboine (I believe there's also one of his on > Assiniboine > > in a Canadian anthropology journal) are, um, rather hard to get > hold of > > over here in Britain. > > > > Anthony > > > > >>> lcumberl at indiana.edu 17/02/2005 20:17:40 >>> > > Thanks - It turns out I have a copy already. -L > > > > Quoting "Parks, Douglas R." : > > > > > The reference to Allan Taylor's paper is: > > > > > > "Variation in Canadian Assiniboine" in Siouan and Caddoan > > Linguistics > > > Newsletter, no. 4 (June 1981), pp. 9-16. > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > > Douglas R. Parks > > > Professor of Anthropology > > > Associate Director, American Indian Studies Research Institute > > > Indiana University > > > 422 North Indiana Avenue > > > Bloomington, IN 47408 > > > > > > Phone 812.855.4123 > > > Fax 812.855.7529 || E-mail parksd at indiana.edu > > > || AISRI web site > > > http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Feb 18 18:06:49 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:06:49 -0700 Subject: Taylor reference In-Reply-To: <1108740780.42160aace02ae@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 lcumberl at indiana.edu wrote: > I could scan my copy .... I'd recommend also sending a hard copy to John Boyle, who to some extent - he might want to clarify this! - acts as a clearing house on things like this, unpublished or "under published," and maintains a bibliography site, too, at http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/siouan_language.html. From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 22:04:20 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:04:20 -0800 Subject: Biloxi "ko" Message-ID: Hi, I've been looking over Dorsey's dictionary and sample sentences noting a few of the uses of "ko" which is often glossed as a definite article or as 'when'. I came up with a hunch based on some sample sentences I found, one of which I have below for illustration: aNsep noNpa amaNki ko kta = the two standing axes are his. aNsep = ax, noNpa = two, amaNki = dual/plural def. article, ko (simply glossed as ob. 'object'?), kta = his. There are several sentences with 'ko' glossed this way and occuring even with another definite article, in this case 'amaNki.' Thus, my hunch is that 'ko' in this case may be sort of a Japanese 'wa', loosely translated as "as concerns it", thus, 'as concerns the two standing axes, they're his.' Are there any examples of this type of 'ko' particle having such a meaning in other Siouan languages? Thanks, Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sat Feb 19 10:02:35 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 11:02:35 +0100 Subject: ko Message-ID: I would think of Lakota _ko_ [kxo'], a stative verb: to be included; to be counted in; also; as well; too ?? Alfred -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sat Feb 19 18:11:25 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 12:11:25 -0600 Subject: Biloxi "ko" Message-ID: > I've been looking over Dorsey's dictionary and sample > sentences noting a few of the uses of "ko" which is > often glossed as a definite article or as 'when'. I > came up with a hunch based on some sample sentences I > found, one of which I have below for illustration: > aNsep noNpa amaNki ko kta = the two standing axes are > his. aNsep = ax, noNpa = two, amaNki = dual/plural > def. article, ko (simply glossed as ob. 'object'?), > kta = his. > There are several sentences with 'ko' glossed this > way and occuring even with another definite article, > in this case 'amaNki.' Thus, my hunch is that 'ko' > in this case may be sort of a Japanese 'wa', loosely > translated as "as concerns it", thus, 'as concerns > the two standing axes, they're his.' I don't think /amaNki/ is a definite article. It may be partially grammaticalized, but it is a positional verb, etymologically 'lying'. Positional use in demonstrative/locative phrases/clauses is a SE areal feature that is very widespread. The /ko/ is definitely a demonstrative or article of some sort, of course. There are some comparative possibilities, but any reconstructible meaning remains fairly elusive. Crow /ko/ 'nonagentive reference' Crow /ko/ 'that, abstract reference' Hidatsa /ku/ 'that one' Biloxi /ko/ 'demonstrative, various usages' (not very revealing) There is another (or related) */ko:/ in Mississippi Valley Siouan languages, meaning roughly 'that, remote'. Beyond that, you're pretty much on your own, I'm afraid. If I were doing it, I'd extract all examples of sentences with the particle from the BI texts and see what emerges -- but you've probably done that already. Beyond that, you probably want to try to deal with all the demonstratives as a group and see if a system emerges that might have 'pigeon holes' that might help organize the results. Somewhere in the Archives of the Siouan List should be a message with an attachment from me listing the prominent demonstrative cognate sets. Generally a three term system is evident, as in older English: demonstratives THIS, THAT, YON; deictics HERE, THERE, YONDER; and temporals NOW, THEN, YORE. But there are numerous variants, and this schema does not account for differences in detail in the various languages. Your analysis in terms of something like Japanese wa/ga sounds interesting and might work out. . . . Bob From shanwest at shaw.ca Sun Feb 20 00:31:24 2005 From: shanwest at shaw.ca (Shannon West) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:31:24 -0800 Subject: Algonquian List Message-ID: Hi everyone, I've got plans to set up an Algonquian listserver, and I had planned to do this earlier, but I just found out I have to move, so it's on hold until I do that and get my computer set up in the new place. Sorry for the delay. In other news, I've had some email issues lately, and some email is not getting through to me. If you've emailed me about anything, and I've not replied, please accept my apology and resend. Thanks, Shannon West From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 20 00:41:28 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:41:28 -0800 Subject: ko In-Reply-To: <42170EBB.6050307@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: Interesting, that would certainly make sense! Thanks, Dave "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: I would think of Lakota _ko_ [kxo'], a stative verb: to be included; to be counted in; also; as well; too ?? Alfred __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 20 01:01:36 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 17:01:36 -0800 Subject: Biloxi "ko" In-Reply-To: <001601c516ae$6de6f3e0$1db5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Hi Bob, -- I don't think /amaNki/ is a definite article. It may be partially grammaticalized, but it is a positional verb, etymologically 'lying'. Positional use in demonstrative/locative phrases/clauses is a SE areal feature that is very widespread. -- I thought there was something suspicious about 'amaNki' glossed as a definite article because it definitely looks more like the verb, such as 'maNkiyaN' (reclining object). -- Positional use in demonstrative/locative phrases/clauses is a SE areal feature that is very widespread. -- Good to know. -- you probably want to try to deal with all the demonstratives as a group and see if a system emerges that might have 'pigeon holes' that might help organize the results.-- Yes, I'm still very much in the note-taking process with Biloxi and I'm sure things will become more evident--at least I hope so! Thanks for the info! Dave "R. Rankin" wrote: > I've been looking over Dorsey's dictionary and sample > sentences noting a few of the uses of "ko" which is > often glossed as a definite article or as 'when'. I > came up with a hunch based on some sample sentences I > found, one of which I have below for illustration: > aNsep noNpa amaNki ko kta = the two standing axes are > his. aNsep = ax, noNpa = two, amaNki = dual/plural > def. article, ko (simply glossed as ob. 'object'?), > kta = his. > There are several sentences with 'ko' glossed this > way and occuring even with another definite article, > in this case 'amaNki.' Thus, my hunch is that 'ko' > in this case may be sort of a Japanese 'wa', loosely > translated as "as concerns it", thus, 'as concerns > the two standing axes, they're his.' I don't think /amaNki/ is a definite article. It may be partially grammaticalized, but it is a positional verb, etymologically 'lying'. Positional use in demonstrative/locative phrases/clauses is a SE areal feature that is very widespread. The /ko/ is definitely a demonstrative or article of some sort, of course. There are some comparative possibilities, but any reconstructible meaning remains fairly elusive. Crow /ko/ 'nonagentive reference' Crow /ko/ 'that, abstract reference' Hidatsa /ku/ 'that one' Biloxi /ko/ 'demonstrative, various usages' (not very revealing) There is another (or related) */ko:/ in Mississippi Valley Siouan languages, meaning roughly 'that, remote'. Beyond that, you're pretty much on your own, I'm afraid. If I were doing it, I'd extract all examples of sentences with the particle from the BI texts and see what emerges -- but you've probably done that already. Beyond that, you probably want to try to deal with all the demonstratives as a group and see if a system emerges that might have 'pigeon holes' that might help organize the results. Somewhere in the Archives of the Siouan List should be a message with an attachment from me listing the prominent demonstrative cognate sets. Generally a three term system is evident, as in older English: demonstratives THIS, THAT, YON; deictics HERE, THERE, YONDER; and temporals NOW, THEN, YORE. But there are numerous variants, and this schema does not account for differences in detail in the various languages. Your analysis in terms of something like Japanese wa/ga sounds interesting and might work out. . . . Bob --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Feb 22 17:41:26 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:41:26 -0700 Subject: Biloxi "ko" In-Reply-To: <20050220010136.57751.qmail@web53809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Compare Omaha-Ponca gu, something like 'thither' or 'yonder', presumably related to ga 'that (more remote)', maybe 'yon'. The glossing of demonstratives is a tricky business, and the glosses I'm providing are not necessarily idiomatic or apt in context. The OP set is something like dhe 'this', s^e 'that (near you)', ga 'yon', and, in parallel with these, du, s^u, and gu. S^u is definitely 'toward you' and is regularly compounded with motion verbs, though du and gu occur in the pattern less commonly, too. There's also a locative particle dhu used with dhe in dhedhu. Wes Jones has an article or two in print on the tendency of similar shapes to show up on Siouan languages as both demonstrative and locative pospositions, and the probable non-coincidence of this. You can find variants of the standard Siouan demonstratives *Re (or *re ? or *te ?), *s^e (or *he ?), and *ka with the substituted vowel o or u in many of the Siouan languages, though I don't recall any clear Dakotan examples. Perhaps this results from prepending demonstratives to verbs with the *o-locative. You can find a lot of material on Siouan locatives and positionals in the archives of the Siouan list. Although use of positional verbs (stand/sit/lie/walk) with demonstratives is a Southeastern feature as Bob points out, it's pretty common in Siouan, southeastern or not. It's more or less common in Mandan, Winnebago, and Dhegiha, and, of course, in Biloxi. In Dhegiha the particles in question have become the definite articles, or, rather, some of the definite articles, but still occur regularly with demonstratives. Bob has a published article on Siouan positionals that you should probably track down. Cross-linguistically, if a language has some kind of classifier or shape/positional scheme, it is likely to use them with counting and/or with demonstrative constructions. From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Tue Feb 22 18:00:54 2005 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:00:54 +0000 Subject: Siouan/Caddoan linguistics conference--2005. In-Reply-To: <004401c513b8$956e4830$0ab5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On 15/2/05 11:46 pm, "R. Rankin" wrote: > > Let me reiterate what I guess I wasn't totally clear > about before. Our plans at present are to hold the > SCLC at the Kaw Tribal complex in Kaw City, Oklahoma on > June 17, 18 and the morning of the 19th. (That's > Friday, Saturday and Sunday.) We have not yet reserved > rooms in Ponca City, OK motels for this and will > announce it here on the list when we do. If anything > catastrophic gets in the way (for example of the Conoco > Oil Co. books all the rooms in town that weekend), we > will also let everyone know immediately. I'll post > when I have more. There'll be a "Call for Papers" > later in the Spring, but, as usual, we'll only expect > some sort of title and info on how much time you'll > need, etc. > > This was the weekend that seemed to be best for > everyone who responded. We hope that this will be the > weekend that the Osages skip in their dance schedule. > That way, any of them who wish may attend our meetings > and any linguists wishing to attend one or more of the > Osages dances on adjacent weekends may plan to come for > the SCLC a week early or late and see the dancing too > > More later as things develop.. > > Bob > > > Thanks Bob Hope to see you there Bruce From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 20:29:35 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:29:35 -0800 Subject: Biloxi "ko" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks John. I'll see what comes up after I look further into this. By the way, did you have any comments on my prior email about Dorsey's Biloxi u-circumflex actually representing /a/ based on a few more cross-comparative examples I found with Dakota, as well as a Muskogean borrowing (Chickasaw falammi > x[u circum]n[u circum]mi) which looks to be actually "xanami"? I think I have Bob fairly convinced, although I would like to gather some more cross-linguistic data to further support it. But perhaps there is at least the draft of a presentation or paper in the works with what I have so far..... Thanks, Dave Koontz John E wrote: Compare Omaha-Ponca gu, something like 'thither' or 'yonder', presumably related to ga 'that (more remote)', maybe 'yon'. The glossing of demonstratives is a tricky business, and the glosses I'm providing are not necessarily idiomatic or apt in context. The OP set is something like dhe 'this', s^e 'that (near you)', ga 'yon', and, in parallel with these, du, s^u, and gu. S^u is definitely 'toward you' and is regularly compounded with motion verbs, though du and gu occur in the pattern less commonly, too. There's also a locative particle dhu used with dhe in dhedhu. Wes Jones has an article or two in print on the tendency of similar shapes to show up on Siouan languages as both demonstrative and locative pospositions, and the probable non-coincidence of this. You can find variants of the standard Siouan demonstratives *Re (or *re ? or *te ?), *s^e (or *he ?), and *ka with the substituted vowel o or u in many of the Siouan languages, though I don't recall any clear Dakotan examples. Perhaps this results from prepending demonstratives to verbs with the *o-locative. You can find a lot of material on Siouan locatives and positionals in the archives of the Siouan list. Although use of positional verbs (stand/sit/lie/walk) with demonstratives is a Southeastern feature as Bob points out, it's pretty common in Siouan, southeastern or not. It's more or less common in Mandan, Winnebago, and Dhegiha, and, of course, in Biloxi. In Dhegiha the particles in question have become the definite articles, or, rather, some of the definite articles, but still occur regularly with demonstratives. Bob has a published article on Siouan positionals that you should probably track down. Cross-linguistically, if a language has some kind of classifier or shape/positional scheme, it is likely to use them with counting and/or with demonstrative constructions. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 21:35:07 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:35:07 -0800 Subject: Biloxi u-circumflex Message-ID: Whoops! Sorry, I actually only intended that last email for John K., but apparently I sent it to the list. I don't think I had mentioned any of the Biloxi [u-circumflex] > [a] theory over the list. But if anyone's interested in this aspect of Biloxi phonetics, I can fill you in. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: