From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue Jan  4 20:23:07 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 13:23:07 -0700
Subject: FYI - BAE Publications in PDF on Lexus-Nexus
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JAN.2005.132307.0700.>

I've been told that the Lexus-Nexus commercial service carries the BAE
publication series in PDF format.  I don't know any details, but this may
be of interest to those of you who have access through university
reference services.

John E. Koontz
http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz


From tmleonard at cox.net  Wed Jan  5 00:52:28 2005
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 18:52:28 -0600
Subject: FYI - BAE Publications in PDF on Lexus-Nexus
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JAN.2005.185228.0600.>

Lexus-Nexus Academic has a good deal of the BAE Bulletins and Annual
Reports, but not a complete collection. Plus, L-N is arranged sort of funny.
I've found the BAEs in the "Congressional Section - Full Historical Texts"
area. Use very general search terms, like "ethnology" and "bulletin" or
"report". "Smithsonian" also brings up some others. Those terms will return
a selection with the report or bulletin number. So, it helps if you have the
BAE index ahead of time (that's available in several places).

You can also limit the search by "agency" (e.g. Bureau of Ethnology-Interior
or Bureau of Ethnology-Smithsonian). Believe it or not, those limits bring
up other BAEs.

Not much after 1920 or so, but a good representation pre-1920. That gives
you nearly all of Dorsey, LaFlesche, et. al.

Anyone know of other sites for historical documents and ethnologies?


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Wed Jan  5 11:21:45 2005
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham)
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:21:45 +0000
Subject: Wanikiya Tun
In-Reply-To: <41CC24DC.4080102@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JAN.2005.112145.0000.>

On 24/12/04 2:17 pm, "Alfred W. Tüting" <ti at fa-kuan.muc.de> wrote:

> Wanikiya Tunpi Taanpetu Waste nahan Omaka Teca iyuskinyanpi ye !
> 
> (wani'kxiya txuN'pi txa?aN'petu was^te' nahaN' o'makxa txe'ca iyus^'kiNyaNpi
> ye!)
> 
> 
> Alfred
> 

Nis^ eya omaka was^te luha kta wacin
Bruce


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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Thu Jan  6 14:53:36 2005
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:53:36 +0100
Subject: Wanikiya Tun -> omaka
Message-ID: <THU.6.JAN.2005.155336.0100.>

 > Nis^ eya omaka was^te luha kta wacin

 > Bruce

He un lila pilamayayelo!


BTW, I have a question to the Siouanist experts here:
Dealing with Dell Hymes' work "In vain I tried to tell you", recently, I
ran into this statement:
"In winter the peripheral world of supernatural power and myth came
closer, spirit-power was sought and initiations into the control of
power held, and myths formally told. Myths, in fact, were not to be told
in summer for fear of rattlesnake bite. With spring, Chinookans, like
flowers, emerged from underground to a new world. The root for "world,
country, land, earth" indeed also has the meaning "year", pointing up
the interdependence of recurring time with the recurrences of the
seasonal round." (p. 21)

Apart from all this sounding very familiarily Chinese to me, here's my
query: how's this in Siouan etymology? As for Dakota, the word for
'season/year' _omaka_ obviously comprises _maka_ [makxa'] 'earth' etc.
plus the locative (or whatever) prefix _o-_.

Alfred
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From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Tue Jan 11 10:33:35 2005
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:33:35 +0000
Subject: Wanikiya Tun -> omaka
In-Reply-To: <41DD50F0.1050501@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JAN.2005.103335.0000.>

I¹m sure that the connection is as you say makha Œearth¹ and the abstract
making or locative prefix o-, linking time with the changing phases of
mother earth in the year.
    I believe that this is also true in Cree, which often mirrors Lakota in
such things although they are not etymologically related but not far from
each other geographically.  I remember that they use pipon Œwinter¹ for
Œyears of age¹ as in nisosaap e piponeyaan Œwhen I was 12 years old¹, but
I¹m sure that they also use askiy Œearth¹ in some way for year, but cannot
remember how and have not got any Cree books to hand

Bruce
> 
> 
> 
> With spring, Chinookans, like flowers, emerged from underground to a new
> world. The root for "world, country, land, earth" indeed also has the meaning
> "year", pointing up the interdependence of recurring time with the recurrences
> of the seasonal round." (p. 21)
> 
> Apart from all this sounding very familiarily Chinese to me, here's my query:
> how's this in Siouan etymology? As for Dakota, the word for 'season/year'
> _omaka_ obviously comprises _maka_ [makxa'] 'earth' etc. plus the locative (or
> whatever) prefix _o-_.
> 
> Alfred
> 


Bruce Ingham
Professor of Arabic Dialect Studies
SOAS.  London University
Thornhaugh St.  Russell Square
London WC1H OXG.  England
****************************
Tel 020 7898 4336
****************************


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From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Tue Jan 11 14:37:25 2005
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:37:25 -0600
Subject: Wanikiya Tun -> omaka
In-Reply-To: <BE095BFF.26DE%bi1@soas.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JAN.2005.083725.0600.>

> I’m sure that the connection is as you say makha ‘earth’ and the
> abstract making or locative prefix o-, linking time with the changing
> phases of mother earth in the year.
> I believe that this is also true in Cree, which often mirrors Lakota
> in such things although they are not etymologically related but not
> far from each other geographically. I remember that they use pipon
> ‘winter’ for ‘years of age’ as in nisosaap e piponeyaan ‘when I was 12
> years old’, but I’m sure that they also use askiy ‘earth’ in some way
> for year

That's really interesting, Bruce. In Wolfahrt & Ahenakew's Plains Cree
dictionary, I find aski:wi- 'be the earth, exist as world; be a year.'

Alan


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Tue Jan 11 18:32:18 2005
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:32:18 -0600
Subject: BAE in LexisNexis
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JAN.2005.123218.0600.>

Having had trouble tracking this down, despite Tom Leonard's help, I
thought I'd share this from LexisNexis:

>It appears that what you are looking for is under LN Congressional - U.S.
>Serial Set Digital Collection...Unfortunately, this cannot be found in any other LexisNexis resource.
>
Alan


From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Jan 11 19:20:04 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:20:04 -0600
Subject: FW: Native Languages of the Southeastern United States now
 available from the University of Nebraska Press
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JAN.2005.132004.0600.>

 
Just FYI...[RLR: ]   via Dave Costa. 


	The University of Nebraska Press is pleased to announce that
Native Languages of the Southeastern United States edited by Janine
Scancarelli and Heather K. Hardy is now available for purchase at the
following link: 
	
	http://www.nebraskapress.unl.edu/bookinfo/4814.html 
	
	or by calling 1-800-755-1105 
	
	Thank you for shopping with us! 
	
	Best regards, 
	
	Erica Corwin
	Direct Response Assistant
	University of Nebraska Press
	233 N 8th St.
	Lincoln  NE  68588-0255
	ecorwin1 at unl.edu
	phone: 402-472-9313
	fax: 402-472-0308
	www.nebraskapress.unl.edu 
	
	You are receiving this message because you made an electronic
request to be notified when this book became available. 
	

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From Rgraczyk at aol.com  Tue Jan 11 21:23:39 2005
From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Randolph Graczyk)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:23:39 EST
Subject: Wanikiya Tun -> omaka
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JAN.2005.162339.EST.>

In Crow the word for 'earth' awa' is also used for 'season'.

Randy
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From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Jan 11 23:20:05 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:20:05 -0600
Subject: 2005 Siouan-Caddoan Languages and Linguistics Conference.
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JAN.2005.172005.0600.>

I need to set the date for our conference in late May or early June as soon as
possible now so that we can move plans ahead.  We had talked about having the
meeting around the time of the Osage dances which occupy three weekends during
this period.  This would enable conference participants to attend one or more of
said dances if they wished.  Jimm Good Tracks made the excellent point that, if
we schedule our meeting the same weekend as any one of the Osage dances,
interested Osages would not be able to attend because of the conflict.  This
might well extend to Kaws, Quapaws and Poncas also.

Carolyn Quintero wrote:
> Pretty much we can count on Grayhorse dances being the first full weekend in
> June. (3-4-5).  Then the next week would be Hominy.  Skip a week, then the
> last week would be Pawhuska.   This is the usual pattern.

I will enquire about these dates and try to verify them during the next few
days.  If anyone knows for certain that this is the schedule, please let me
know.  If this is indeed the schedule, then we should think about the Friday,
Saturday and Sunday preceding the weekend of June 3-5, i.e., the last weekend in
May, OR we should wait until the weekend of June 17, the week between the last
two Osage dances.  Anyone have a preference?

Best wishes to everyone for the New Year!

Bob


From goodtracks at GBRonline.com  Wed Jan 12 04:00:57 2005
From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:00:57 -0600
Subject: 2005 Siouan-Caddoan Languages and Linguistics Conference.
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JAN.2005.220057.0600.>

Bob:  While Carolyn provided the usual agenda for the 3 communities, this is
not written in granite.  Gray Horse invariably is the first week end, but
afterwards, it can change.  One year, they skipped a week before Hominy, and
in another year, Hominy followed the very next weekend.  Even on one year,
Pawhuska preceeded the Hominy Iroshka.  Then there was the year when all 3
communities followed one another, with no dance on the forth -- the
hottest -- weekend.  As it is, they do not have their committee dinners
until late Spring which is when they set the dates.  If anyone says they'll
have "the" dates any time soon, are simply wishfull thinking.
Your best bet is for a week in May (27-29), although on the evening of the
29th, the PBPotawatomi have their Shinogah feast and dance in a specially
built Chakirutha (wigwam) built for the purpose at MiksiKwa (Jackson) home
place.  Then the War Mothers at GreyHorse hold their dance and feast.  In
fact, most of the Native communities have something on that week end for
commemoration of deceased relatives and veterans.  Better luck on July 4th
weekend, as there will be an opportunity for Osage attendance then, in lieu
of a large number of them attending the Pawnee Homecoming Powwow.
jgt
----- Original Message -----
From: "R. Rankin" <rankin at ku.edu>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 5:20 PM
Subject: 2005 Siouan-Caddoan Languages and Linguistics Conference.


>I need to set the date for our conference in late May or early June as soon
>as possible now so that we can move plans ahead.  We had talked about
>having the meeting around the time of the Osage dances which occupy three
>weekends during this period.   if we schedule our meeting the same weekend
>as any one of the Osage dances, interested Osages would not be able to
>attend because of the conflict.  This might well extend to Kaws, Quapaws
>and Poncas also.
>
> Carolyn Quintero wrote:
>> Pretty much we can count on Grayhorse dances being the first full weekend
>> in June. (3-4-5).  Then the next week would be Hominy.  Skip a week, then
>> the last week would be Pawhuska.   This is the usual pattern.
>
> I will enquire about these dates and try to verify them during the next
> few days.  If anyone knows for certain that this is the schedule, please
> let me know.  If this is indeed the schedule, then we should think about
> the Friday, Saturday and Sunday preceding the weekend of June 3-5, i.e.,
> the last weekend in May, OR we should wait until the weekend of June 17,
> the week between the last two Osage dances.  Anyone have a preference?
>
> Best wishes to everyone for the New Year!
>
> Bob
>


From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu  Wed Jan 12 13:38:04 2005
From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 07:38:04 -0600
Subject: 2005 Siouan-Caddoan Languages and Linguistics Conference.
Message-ID: <WED.12.JAN.2005.073804.0600.>

I don't know of any conflicts in late May/early June.


From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 12 14:27:45 2005
From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Q.)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:27:45 -0600
Subject: 2005 Siouan-Caddoan Languages and Linguistics Conference.
In-Reply-To: <007801c4f834$1662d460$29b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JAN.2005.082745.0600.>

I second what Jimm Goodtracks says about the possibility of variation in the
scheduling.

I was under the impression that the meeting at which dates are set in stone
will occur as early as late Feb.  But that's just an opinion I heard.

I think you will have to either give up coordination with Osage dance dates,
or wait until spring to set the date for our conference.

Maybe Jimm will agree that probably the best guess as to a non-dance weekend
would be June 18th weekend.  That's just a Guess.

Carolyn

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of R. Rankin
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 5:20 PM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: 2005 Siouan-Caddoan Languages and Linguistics Conference.

I need to set the date for our conference in late May or early June as soon
as
possible now so that we can move plans ahead.  We had talked about having
the
meeting around the time of the Osage dances which occupy three weekends
during
this period.  This would enable conference participants to attend one or
more of
said dances if they wished.  Jimm Good Tracks made the excellent point that,
if
we schedule our meeting the same weekend as any one of the Osage dances,
interested Osages would not be able to attend because of the conflict.  This
might well extend to Kaws, Quapaws and Poncas also.

Carolyn Quintero wrote:
> Pretty much we can count on Grayhorse dances being the first full weekend
in
> June. (3-4-5).  Then the next week would be Hominy.  Skip a week, then the
> last week would be Pawhuska.   This is the usual pattern.

I will enquire about these dates and try to verify them during the next few
days.  If anyone knows for certain that this is the schedule, please let me
know.  If this is indeed the schedule, then we should think about the
Friday,
Saturday and Sunday preceding the weekend of June 3-5, i.e., the last
weekend in
May, OR we should wait until the weekend of June 17, the week between the
last
two Osage dances.  Anyone have a preference?

Best wishes to everyone for the New Year!

Bob


From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU  Wed Jan 12 15:22:48 2005
From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:22:48 -0700
Subject: 2005 Siouan-Caddoan Languages and Linguistics Conference.
In-Reply-To: <007801c4f834$1662d460$29b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JAN.2005.082248.0700.>

I assume that the last weekend in May is Memorial Day weekend -- a time
when I don't want to be on the highway.  So I would vote for the mid-June
date, though chances are good I won't be able to be there this year
anyway.

	David

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, R. Rankin wrote:

> I need to set the date for our conference in late May or early June as soon as
> possible now so that we can move plans ahead.  We had talked about having the
> meeting around the time of the Osage dances which occupy three weekends during
> this period.  This would enable conference participants to attend one or more of
> said dances if they wished.  Jimm Good Tracks made the excellent point that, if
> we schedule our meeting the same weekend as any one of the Osage dances,
> interested Osages would not be able to attend because of the conflict.  This
> might well extend to Kaws, Quapaws and Poncas also.
>
> Carolyn Quintero wrote:
> > Pretty much we can count on Grayhorse dances being the first full weekend in
> > June. (3-4-5).  Then the next week would be Hominy.  Skip a week, then the
> > last week would be Pawhuska.   This is the usual pattern.
>
> I will enquire about these dates and try to verify them during the next few
> days.  If anyone knows for certain that this is the schedule, please let me
> know.  If this is indeed the schedule, then we should think about the Friday,
> Saturday and Sunday preceding the weekend of June 3-5, i.e., the last weekend in
> May, OR we should wait until the weekend of June 17, the week between the last
> two Osage dances.  Anyone have a preference?
>
> Best wishes to everyone for the New Year!
>
> Bob
>


From rankin at ku.edu  Wed Jan 12 23:01:46 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:01:46 -0600
Subject: 2005 Siouan-Caddoan Languages and Linguistics Conference.
Message-ID: <WED.12.JAN.2005.170146.0600.>

David's right, that's the Memorial Day weekend.

I don't mind going for June 15th, but last year, according to the Osage website
they held the dances on three successive weekends without a break.  Go figure.
I have a note from a member of the Red Corn family saying they won't set the
dates for some time yet, so I think we'd better go ahead.

If you have a problem with the weekend of June 17, 18 and 19th, please let me
know ASAP, as I would like to include everybody in the decision to the extent
possible.  I will let the Osages know our schedule so that they can make their
own informed decisions as they wish.

Bob


----- Original Message -----
From: "ROOD DAVID S" <rood at spot.Colorado.EDU>
> I assume that the last weekend in May is Memorial Day weekend -- a time
> when I don't want to be on the highway.


From jpboyle at uchicago.edu  Wed Jan 12 23:48:44 2005
From: jpboyle at uchicago.edu (John Boyle)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:48:44 -0600
Subject: 2005 Siouan-Caddoan Languages and Linguistics Conference.
In-Reply-To: <004401c4f8fb$996920e0$02b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JAN.2005.174844.0600.>

>David's right, that's the Memorial Day weekend.
>
>I don't mind going for June 15th, but last year, according to the
>Osage website they held the dances on three successive weekends
>without a break.  Go figure. I have a note from a member of the Red
>Corn family saying they won't set the dates for some time yet, so I
>think we'd better go ahead.
>
>If you have a problem with the weekend of June 17, 18 and 19th,
>please let me know ASAP, as I would like to include everybody in the
>decision to the extent possible.  I will let the Osages know our
>schedule so that they can make their own informed decisions as they
>wish.
>
>Bob
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "ROOD DAVID S" <rood at spot.Colorado.EDU>
>>I assume that the last weekend in May is Memorial Day weekend -- a time
>>when I don't want to be on the highway.

That weekend will work for me.

Thanks,

John Boyle


From are2 at buffalo.edu  Wed Jan 12 23:57:45 2005
From: are2 at buffalo.edu (are2 at buffalo.edu)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:57:45 -0500
Subject: 2005 Siouan-Caddoan Languages and Linguistics Conference.
In-Reply-To: <p05210601be0b6674f6f2@[68.78.26.231]>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JAN.2005.185745.0500.>

I won't be able to make any June dates, but I really wouldn't be able
to in late May either.
So, I wish everyone a wonderful conference!
-Ardis


Quoting John Boyle <jpboyle at uchicago.edu>:

> >David's right, that's the Memorial Day weekend.
> >
> >I don't mind going for June 15th, but last year, according to the
> >Osage website they held the dances on three successive weekends
> >without a break.  Go figure. I have a note from a member of the Red
>
> >Corn family saying they won't set the dates for some time yet, so I
>
> >think we'd better go ahead.
> >
> >If you have a problem with the weekend of June 17, 18 and 19th,
> >please let me know ASAP, as I would like to include everybody in the
>
> >decision to the extent possible.  I will let the Osages know our
> >schedule so that they can make their own informed decisions as they
>
> >wish.
> >
> >Bob
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message ----- From: "ROOD DAVID S"
> <rood at spot.Colorado.EDU>
> >>I assume that the last weekend in May is Memorial Day weekend -- a
> time
> >>when I don't want to be on the highway.
>
> That weekend will work for me.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John Boyle
>
>


From mary.marino at usask.ca  Thu Jan 13 06:27:08 2005
From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 00:27:08 -0600
Subject: 2005 Siouan-Caddoan Languages and Linguistics Conference.
In-Reply-To: <004401c4f8fb$996920e0$02b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JAN.2005.002708.0600.>

The weekend of 17/18/19 June sounds good to me.  Mary


If you have a problem with the weekend of June 17, 18 and 19th, please let
me know ASAP, as I would like to include everybody in the decision to the
extent possible.  I will let the Osages know our schedule so that they can
make their own informed decisions as they wish.

>Bob


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Jan 13 23:23:47 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 17:23:47 -0600
Subject: Finally -- the Quapaw sketch.
Message-ID: <THU.13.JAN.2005.172347.0600.>

I received my freebie copies of _Native Languages of the Southeastern United
States_ from the
Nebraska Press in the mail today and was relieved to see that they did a pretty
fair job of reproducing my Quapaw grammar sketch manuscript.  Thus far the only
errors I've caught are in the listing of the vowel inventory.  The problem there
seems to be due to the fact that Microsoft Word appears to randomly destroy
horizontal tabular formatting when identical files with identical templates are
displayed
on two different computers (I'm sure most of you have experience with THAT.)

So the Quapaw oral vowel "triangle" came out as a vowel "diamond" when they set
the type.  It should be:

i

e                     o

           a

. . . but it came out as:

           i

e                     o

          a

Likewise the nasal vowels lost tabular formatting.  They should display as:

iN

                    oN

         aN

. . . but they emerged as a vertical column:

iN

oN

aN

So if anyone buys or checks out this volume, you might want to make those minor
corrections.

At least the sketch is finally out, and a lot is now in print that I've wanted
to
get out for over 10 years.

Bob


From mary.marino at usask.ca  Fri Jan 14 03:31:50 2005
From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:31:50 -0600
Subject: Finally -- the Quapaw sketch.
In-Reply-To: <002b01c4f9c6$efa31620$13b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JAN.2005.213150.0600.>

Congratulations!  Mary

At 05:23 PM 1/13/2005, you wrote:
>I received my freebie copies of +AF8-Native Languages of the Southeastern
>United States+AF8- from the
>Nebraska Press in the mail today and was relieved to see that they did a
>pretty
>fair job of reproducing my Quapaw grammar sketch manuscript.  Thus far the
>only
>errors I've caught are in the listing of the vowel inventory.  The problem
>there
>seems to be due to the fact that Microsoft Word appears to randomly destroy
>horizontal tabular formatting when identical files with identical
>templates are displayed
>on two different computers (I'm sure most of you have experience with THAT.)
>
>So the Quapaw oral vowel +ACI-triangle+ACI- came out as a vowel
>+ACI-diamond+ACI- when they set
>the type.  It should be:
>
>i
>
>e                     o
>
>           a
>
>. . . but it came out as:
>
>           i
>
>e                     o
>
>          a
>
>Likewise the nasal vowels lost tabular formatting.  They should display as:
>
>iN
>
>                    oN
>
>         aN
>
>. . . but they emerged as a vertical column:
>
>iN
>
>oN
>
>aN
>
>So if anyone buys or checks out this volume, you might want to make those
>minor
>corrections.
>
>At least the sketch is finally out, and a lot is now in print that I've
>wanted to
>get out for over 10 years.
>
>Bob
>
>


From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Jan 16 22:38:17 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 16:38:17 -0600
Subject: A unicode Siouan, IPA, Cyrillic, Greek,
 west European font -- FREE.
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JAN.2005.163817.0600.>

If you are looking for a good font that contains all
the characters necessary to type any Siouan language
including the characters used by James Dorsey, I'd
suggest "Gentium" -- It was
recommended to me at the LSA meeting by several of the
people promoting
the use of Unicode fonts as a standard.  You can
download it free from
the following website:
http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&item_id=Gentium

It also has all the various accented characters used
across Europe, a very
complete inventory of IPA symbols plus Cyrillic and
Greek for all the Balkanists among us, and a huge
selection of overstriking diacritics for any characters
that might be wanting.  Using this as a standard would
circumvent the problem created by the fact that the
present Siouan sets don't seem to work with the Mac.
If your computer can handle Unicode, then this font
will provide just about everything you would possibly
need.

Bob


From kdshea at ku.edu  Tue Jan 18 04:05:27 2005
From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:05:27 -0600
Subject: 2005 Siouan-Caddoan Languages and Linguistics Conference.
Message-ID: <MON.17.JAN.2005.220527.0600.>

I will be teaching a summer school course at KU ("Structure of
Ponca"--anyone interested in enrolling?) the month of June.  Our department
put me down for a condensed period of 2 hours a day, 5 days a week in June,
rather than having me teach the course over the usual 2 months of June and
July of summer school, so I don't think that I can miss even one day of
classes.  I would prefer the weekend of May 20, 21, and 22.  The Poncas have
a lot going on on the following, Memorial Day weekend that would preclude
most Poncas from attending I think, and, as David points out, that's a bad
time to travel.  The first weekend in July would also be fine for me.  I
understand, though, that people attending the conference might want to look
on at some of the Osage dances in June (where, if I'm not wrong, most of the
singers and many of the dancers participating will be Poncas).  There's my
two-cents' worth, but I don't want everyone to have to plan around me, even
though  I would very much like to attend the SACC.

Kathy

----- Original Message -----
From: "R. Rankin" <rankin at ku.edu>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 5:01 PM
Subject: Re: 2005 Siouan-Caddoan Languages and Linguistics Conference.


> David's right, that's the Memorial Day weekend.
>
> I don't mind going for June 15th, but last year, according to the Osage
website
> they held the dances on three successive weekends without a break.  Go
figure.
> I have a note from a member of the Red Corn family saying they won't set
the
> dates for some time yet, so I think we'd better go ahead.
>
> If you have a problem with the weekend of June 17, 18 and 19th, please let
me
> know ASAP, as I would like to include everybody in the decision to the
extent
> possible.  I will let the Osages know our schedule so that they can make
their
> own informed decisions as they wish.
>
> Bob
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "ROOD DAVID S" <rood at spot.Colorado.EDU>
> > I assume that the last weekend in May is Memorial Day weekend -- a time
> > when I don't want to be on the highway.
>


From cstelfer at ucalgary.ca  Tue Jan 18 21:06:44 2005
From: cstelfer at ucalgary.ca (cstelfer at ucalgary.ca)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:06:44 -0700
Subject: Finally -- the Quapaw sketch.
In-Reply-To: <002b01c4f9c6$efa31620$13b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JAN.2005.140644.0700.>

> The problem there
> seems to be due to the fact that Microsoft Word appears to randomly
> destroy
> horizontal tabular formatting when identical files with identical
> templates are
> displayed
> on two different computers (I'm sure most of you have experience with
> THAT.)
>

Have you tried putting things like this in tables instead of using tabs?
Then you just make the table invisible, and it usually looks really good.
I agree that MS Word tabs need some serious work.  Unfortunately tables
don't work for my drawings involving segmental features, so I'm stuck with
tabs there.

Corey.


From cstelfer at ucalgary.ca  Tue Jan 18 21:01:17 2005
From: cstelfer at ucalgary.ca (cstelfer at ucalgary.ca)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:01:17 -0700
Subject: A unicode Siouan, IPA, Cyrillic, Greek,
 west European font -- FREE.
In-Reply-To: <003901c4fc1c$18157600$03b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JAN.2005.140117.0700.>

Hi,

   Gentium is good, but Doulos SIL is even better, or at least that's what
people around this department seem to concur.  Doulos SIL is made by
the same people as Gentium, only it's newer and they have improved some
things.  Here is the link to download it for free:

http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&item_id=DoulosSIL_download

Sorry it's so long.

Doulos SIL looks a lot more like Times New Roman, so you can easily write
your whole document in Doulos SIL and it will look more or less "normal".
I believe that Doulos SIL has all of the same characters as Gentium and
more, so finding the appropriate Siouan characters should be easy.  ONe
nice development in Doulos SIL is the combining accents, which
automatically format themselves.  This works well when you want to have an
accented nasal vowel and you use [~] to indicate nasality.  The combining
accent will automatically move above the tilde so that the two symbols do
not interfere with each other.  But you have to make sure you use the
"combining" accents to get this effect.

Doulos SIL is so useful that our phonology prof, Darin Howe, gets all of
his phonology students to download it to write their papers and
assignments.  The only real downside is that Doulos SIL makes the line
spacing slightly larger than it would be with Times New Roman, so there is
more space between lines than usual.

Hope this helps,

Corey.





> If you are looking for a good font that contains all
> the characters necessary to type any Siouan language
> including the characters used by James Dorsey, I'd
> suggest "Gentium" -- It was
> recommended to me at the LSA meeting by several of the
> people promoting
> the use of Unicode fonts as a standard.  You can
> download it free from
> the following website:
> http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&item_id=Gentium
>
> It also has all the various accented characters used
> across Europe, a very
> complete inventory of IPA symbols plus Cyrillic and
> Greek for all the Balkanists among us, and a huge
> selection of overstriking diacritics for any characters
> that might be wanting.  Using this as a standard would
> circumvent the problem created by the fact that the
> present Siouan sets don't seem to work with the Mac.
> If your computer can handle Unicode, then this font
> will provide just about everything you would possibly
> need.
>
> Bob
>
>


From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Jan 18 23:09:53 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:09:53 -0600
Subject: unicode Siouan
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JAN.2005.170953.0600.>

>   Gentium is good, but Doulos SIL is even better, or
> at least that's what
> people around this department seem to concur.

> The only real downside is that Doulos SIL makes the
> line
> spacing slightly larger than it would be with Times
> New Roman, so there is
> more space between lines than usual.

John Koontz's Siouan Doulos is based on the SIL Doulos
font and is very good.  The only problem has been the
fact that MACs seem to choke on it.  I'll have a look
at the latest version of SIL Doulos.  Actually Times
itself has nearly everything you'd want, but it lacks a
unitary character for nasal O (O with 'ogonek' beneath
it).

My own experience with the spacing problem you mention
is that the Doulos letters are actually larger than the
Times New Roman letters in the same pitch.  I have
found that it comes out nearly perfect if you type your
TNR material in 12 and your Doulos material in the same
document in 11. This brings the size and spacing into
line.  The latest version of Gentium doesn't seem to
have this problem, although it's still not identical
with the TNR font.  If you type "The quick brown fox
jumped over the lazy dog's back." in all three fonts,
you see that Gentium is fractionally longer, and SIL
Doulos is fractionally bigger and longer.  At least for
the versions I have.

Bob


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Wed Jan 19 00:29:17 2005
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:29:17 -0600
Subject: unicode Siouan
In-Reply-To: <005801c4fdb2$d2f40530$15b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JAN.2005.182917.0600.>

R. Rankin wrote:

> Times itself has nearly everything you'd want, but it lacks a unitary
> character for nasal O (O with 'ogonek' beneath it).

How about just using o-tilde?

Alan


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Jan 19 00:28:54 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:28:54 -0700
Subject: unicode Siouan
In-Reply-To: <005801c4fdb2$d2f40530$15b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JAN.2005.172854.0700.>

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, R. Rankin wrote:
> John Koontz's Siouan Doulos is based on the SIL Doulos font and is very
> good.

To clarify matters, what I somewhat ambitiously called Standard Siouan is
not really a type face, but a character set - a specified list of
character assignments to the 256 cells in an 8-bit character scheme.
Standard Siouan (abbreviated SS, I'm afraid) provides the characters
needed to represent typical modern Siouanist practice including scholarly
usage for journal publication, the Colorado Lakota Project, Ken Miner's
Winnebago alphabet, etc.  I supplemented this with three additional sets
to provide the characters used historically by (1) Dakotanists (mainly
Riggs and Buechel) and (2) the BAE, plus (3) a small supplementary group
of characters peculiar to modern phonetic transcriptions of Siouan
languages.  So there are four character sets, though the main one used is
the SS set.

I used SIL's font tools to produce renderings of these sets in three type
faces, which are (a) Doulos (SIL's proportional serif face), (b) Sophia
(SIL's proportional sans-serif face), and (c) Manuscript (SIL's monospaced
serif face).  SIL uses its own faces to avoid having to license industry
standards like Times, Helvetica, and Courier; or Dutch, Swiss, and ???;
or New Times, Arial, and New Courier (depending on your vendor).  Each of
the three SIL faces includes a standard upright version, an oblique or
Italic version, and bold versions of each of these.  So, with 3 faces and
4 variants of each face, there 12 variants for each of the 4 character
sets, or 48 fonts in all, one of which is Standard Siouan Doulos upright.

Well, actually, there are 60 fonts.  Because Doulos et al. aren't Times et
al. they don't actually match Times et al. in things like height,
baseline, descender length, etc.  Realizing this would be awkward I also
supply the standard ANSI (ISO something or Windows) character set in each
of the faces and variants.  As close to that as the SIL tools allow,
anyway.  This way, as long as you're willing to use Doulos, Sophia, or
Manuscript as a body text, you can get a body text that matches any Siouan
language materials embedded in it.  In fact, unless you need to use some
of the usual Windows "upper range" (128-255)  characters for something,
you can usually just use the Standard Siouan set in the body, too.  If you
don't, things can look fairly odd.

There are several problems with using the Standard Siouan et al. character
sets.  One is that these sets are only used - at the moment - by
Siouanists and you would be better off in the long run using a Unicode
scheme.  Just few years ago that was a pipe dream, but we are almost - not
quite - at the point where (a) you can get a complete Unicode-font in
every environment where you'd want it, in some face or other, and (b) that
environment supports entering and rendering things like vowel-ogonek-acute
for all vowels and not just most of them.

The Windows extended character sets are also a pretty good match for
Siouan now, and they may map to 16-bit Unicode (or some encoding of it)
now, too.  However, you will find problems with things like some
vowel-ogonek-acute combinations, all vowel-ogonek-grave (etc.)
combinations, some raised letters (as letters in their own right and not
superscripted regular letters), some consonant-hacek combinations
(j-hacek), and maybe some of the tailed-n letters (enye, eng?).  Oh yes,
also glottal stop.  This list may not be precisely correct, as I tend to
forget the details from one time to another, but I think it serves as a
quick list of the potential problem points you need to look at before
trying to use the extended Windows set on short notice.  If you don't need
these characters you have nothing to worry about.

Apart from the disadvantage of using the non-standard Standard Siouan
character set, there is also, of course, a disadvantage to using Doulos et
al. as faces. This disadvantage applies even with SIL's Unicode version of
Doulos.  The issue is that a publisher might well insist of Times or some
other face or set of faces to the exclusion of Doulos.  This is comparable
to the problem that Mathematicians encounter using Knuth's Computer Modern
faces with TeX.  American publishers don't like modern faces.  They like
ancient or intermediate faces (like Times), and they tend to want to pick
the fonts themselves, so they may also dislike home-brewed ancient faces
like Doulos, etc. - anything other than their usual choice.

Note:  A modern face - I think Garamond is a good example - has a strong
contrast between thick and thin strokes.  Ancient faces like Times use
about the same weight for all strokes.

The solution with TeX is that there are vendors that sell Times versions
of the TeX character set, e.g., the MathTimes set.  What Siouanists need
is Unicode tools that handle rendering of all the simple and compound
characters that Siouanists need, and do it in standard faces, if not all
faces.

We haven't achieved either one, I think, but I understand that we are
getting close to the full Siouanist character set.

I think at least one Mac adaptation of my fonts succeeded for a student of
Dick Carter, but I have never tried to keep track of the Mac adaptations
or how they were achieved, so I can't help there.


From rankin at ku.edu  Wed Jan 19 20:15:04 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:15:04 -0600
Subject: unicode Siouan
Message-ID: <WED.19.JAN.2005.141504.0600.>

> There are several problems with using the Standard
> Siouan et al. character
> sets.  One is that these sets are only used - at the
> moment - by
> Siouanists and you would be better off in the long
> run using a Unicode
> scheme.

Yes, ordinarily I've just used SSDoulos for entire
documents with a size 11 typeface, and that has worked
well and matched Times very closely.  This past
semester however I had two paper deadlines for
different publications.  One wanted strictly Courier
New and the other Times New Roman.  They were rather
inflexible about it, and I'm afraid this is going to be
happening more and more.  Happily, I discovered that
the newer versions of these two fonts that came with my
XP machine had all the vowels with macrons and breves
and other symbols necessary to reproduce Swanton's BAE
Ofo transcription and my phonemicization of it.  The
only exceptions were the /O-ogonek/, the /J-hacek/ and
the /glottal stop/.  Using the "equation" feature of
Word, I got the ogonek and hacek to overstrike the
proper segments and I ended up simply reverting to /?/
for the glottal.  Still, it's nice to have all the
additional charx that Gentium or SILDoulos provide.  I
can't really say that I prefer one or the other of
those.  The latest versions are both quite nice.  Now
if only publishers will be a little more understanding
. . . .

> The Windows extended character sets are also a pretty
> good match for
> Siouan now, and they may map to 16-bit Unicode (or
> some encoding of it)
> now, too.

That's what I found with Times, but, as you say . . .
> However, you will find problems with things like some
> vowel-ogonek-acute combinations, all
> vowel-ogonek-grave (etc.)
> combinations, some raised letters (as letters in
> their own right and not
> superscripted regular letters), some consonant-hacek
> combinations
> (j-hacek), and maybe some of the tailed-n letters
> (enye, eng?).  Oh yes,
> also glottal stop.

In Times (TNR) you can get the various accents to
overstrike other charx and compose what you need.  In
Courier, however, they will not overstrike, at least on
my machine, in Word.  Glottal stop, of course, always
gets printed as "zero", so you have to go with question
mark or apostrophe.

> We haven't achieved either one, I think, but I
> understand that we are
> getting close to the full Siouanist character set.

We're "there", I think, in the Unicode versions of
Gentium and SILDoulos, as well as the very
klunky-looking Titus Cyberbit Basic, but not quite so
in the fonts the publishers most commonly ask for.

> I think at least one Mac adaptation of my fonts
> succeeded for a student of
> Dick Carter, but I have never tried to keep track of
> the Mac adaptations
> or how they were achieved, so I can't help there.

The SIL website has separate font downloads for PC's
and Mac's, so maybe they're still a little different
(or maybe it's the download protocols that differ).

The solution to the O-ogonek problem that involves
using O-tilde instead would get into diacritic
stacking.  The unicode fonts will do this but it looks
poor.  Keeping nasalization beneath and accent on top
of vowels is the better solution.  But then I quite
generally disapprove of using IPA in phonological
transcription.  It is designed for purely phonetic
purposes, has a lot of bizarre-looking symbols, can't
really provide for phonological affricates and has a
host of other problems.  For the past few years it's
been pushed really hard by the unemployed phoneticians
who lost their own departments in many European
universities and came flocking en-masse into
Linguistics, but even though they look upon IPA as "the
metric system of transcription", using the older and
better-established Americanist symbol set just makes
more sense phonologically.  I like the mnemonic of
having common diacritics for particular features --
i.e., s,z,c,j with the hacek make more sense to
students than using the klunky S, 3, tS, d3, etc.  But
enough of the soapbox.

Bob


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Wed Jan 19 20:49:38 2005
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:49:38 -0600
Subject: unicode Siouan
In-Reply-To: <000f01c4fe63$912cb460$14b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JAN.2005.144938.0600.>

Have a look at the MS Arial Unicode font. It's big, but that's because
it has almost everything but the kitchen sink (IPA, Arabic, Hangul,
etc). It may now come with Windows, though I originally got it as a free
download.

Alan


From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 19 21:23:02 2005
From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:23:02 -0800
Subject: Male vs. female speech
Message-ID: <WED.19.JAN.2005.132302.0800.>

Hi all,

As I've been perusing the Dorsey/Swanton Biloxi dictionary and texts, I've been noticing many instances of male vs. female speech patterns.  The one simple example I can think of at the moment is the optional declarative particle na for a male speaker, and ni for a female speaker (and, if I remember correctly, the question particle wo for male, wa for female).  It seems to be most prominent in commands, and there appear to be different command forms of verbs for male to male, male to female or child, female to female, female to male, etc.

I'm wondering if this is a common feature of all Siouan languages, or is Taneks different in this respect.

Dave

		
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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Jan 19 22:11:01 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:11:01 -0700
Subject: unicode Siouan
In-Reply-To: <000f01c4fe63$912cb460$14b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JAN.2005.151101.0700.>

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005, R. Rankin wrote:
> Yes, ordinarily I've just used SSDoulos for entire
> documents with a size 11 typeface, and that has worked
> well and matched Times very closely.

In principle it would only be necessary to match Times in other papers
because of the availability of Doulos (and Sophia, etc.) in the "Windows
ANSI" set.  Or if you needed something from the extended Times set.  But
in practice, it's now often like Bob says - the publishers insist on
a particular face and don't want a mix of that face and some other face.
They are also often rather reluctant to use any non-standard font
technology even if they don't care what the face is.

One wrinkle that may help someone:  the essence of the Standard Siouan,
etc., sets is the SIL character set definition.  This definition should
work with almost any SIL template font (up to a point).  If you had a full
SIL template font in the Times face you could generate a Standard Siouan
Times font from the Standard Siouan character set definition as easily as
an SS Doulos font.  SIL actually used to license Times, Helvetica, etc.,
for the pre-TrueType version of its font generator, or rather it licensed
the Bitstream knockoffs Dutch, Swiss, etc.  When SIL decided to save money
by using its own fonts they called them Doulos and Sophia - terms of
Christian doctrinal relevance - so they could use the same abbreviations.

> In Times (TNR) you can get the various accents to overstrike other charx
> and compose what you need.  In Courier, however, they will not
> overstrike, at least on my machine, in Word.

Weird.  The hard part is overstriking proportional fonts.  Monospaced is
much easier!  Generating fonts with the SIL software entails
"precomposing" the overstrikes and assigning them to particular numbers
0-255, using a language that amounts to

take x, (overprint y positioning it at q)* and stick it in i

My only claims to fame here are picking the right characters for
Siouanists, carefully defining q depending on f, the face, and developing
a nicer notation for the commands (not the form above) and a tool to
convert them into what SIL expects.

> > We haven't achieved either one, I think, but I understand that we are
> > getting close to the full Siouanist character set.
>
> We're "there", I think, in the Unicode versions of Gentium and
> SILDoulos, ...

I meant to include supporting Unicode in standard faces in "there."

Also, strictly speaking I think there are some base + diacritic
combinations in the vowel + ogonek + acute range and maybe some other
combinations (j-hacek?) that Unicode doesn't precompose, so that you need
one of the implementations of Unicode that understands "standard" base
character + diacritic sequences, which most do not.  It doesn't quite
count if the overprinting requires the extra "non-Unicode" smarts of an
application like a word processor or even an operating system, because
then you can't export the text to something else like a Web page or
another operating system.  It's like the Word Perfect font extensions all
over again.  Works great, as long as you live inside WordPerfect.

> The SIL website has separate font downloads for PC's
> and Mac's, so maybe they're still a little different
> (or maybe it's the download protocols that differ).

Mac files have a different structure.  There are two "forks"  and, as I
recall, everything in a Windows TrueType font goes in one of these forks
called the data fork.  But you need a tool that picks up a Windows file
and restructures it as a Mac file.  Maybe not all the available tools
handle .TTF files correctly?

> The solution to the O-ogonek problem that involves
> using O-tilde instead would get into diacritic
> stacking.

Exactly.  Americanists have to deal with the combination of nasalization
and pitch accent fairly often, and they have settled on the Polish ogonek
- nasal hook - as a way of getting the accent mark out the nasalization
mark's hair.  This is done in Siouan, Atha[b]ascan, Tanoan, etc.  The only
use of tilde for nasalization in Siouan that I recall was the Wisconsin
Native Languages Project's Winnebago vocabulary, the predecessor of the
Miner Field Lexicon.

Siouanists do have a third alternative in the form of raised n ~ engma ~
eta, etc., after the vowel.  In the old days - cf. Dorsey 1890 - they
wrote the accent after this, but now it sits on the vowel.  I think the
old way was a printer's expedient.  The old GPO type must not have handled
overprints?

> But then I quite generally disapprove of using IPA in phonological
> transcription.  It is designed for purely phonetic purposes,

I remember an ardent IPAer arguing to the contrary on this point on the
Linguist List years ago and citing chapter and verse in the IPA documents,
but this is certainly the American assessment of what IPA was intended
for, perhaps arising from IPA originating before phonology was widely seen
as separate from phonetics?  Actually, many disciplines have standardized
non-IPA standards, e.g., English transcription (in America), Slavists,
Indologists, Semiticists, etc.  I agree that IPA is clunky and funny
looking and I much prefer almost anything else, though I may be prejudiced
just a bit.


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Wed Jan 19 22:38:43 2005
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:38:43 -0600
Subject: Male vs. female speech
In-Reply-To: <20050119212302.94433.qmail@web53802.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JAN.2005.163843.0600.>

Hi Dave,

> As I've been perusing the Dorsey/Swanton Biloxi dictionary and texts,
I've been noticing many instances of male vs. female speech patterns.  The
one simple example I can think of at the moment is the optional declarative
particle na for a male speaker, and ni for a female speaker (and, if I
remember correctly, the question particle wo for male, wa for female).  It
seems to be most prominent in commands, and there appear to be different
command forms of verbs for male to male, male to female or child, female to
female, female to male, etc.

> I'm wondering if this is a common feature of all Siouan languages, or is
Taneks different in this respect.

I think it's pretty common.  I've also noticed that it seems
to be most prominent in commands, next most prominent in
statements or emphatics, less prominent in questions.

In OP, the male command particle is ga! and the female
command particle is a!; the 19th century emphatic,
previously statement, marker was ha for men and he
for women; now basically ho for men only in Omaha,
with the vocative also now changed to -ho for men
only, where in the 19th century it was -ha for both
sexes.

In Lakhota, I was taught that the strong male command
particle is yo! and the female command particle is ye!;
but if the command is more polite and diffident, then
the male form is ye! and the female form is na!  The
statement form for men is yelo', and for women is kis^to'.
For questions, both use he?, unless the man is standing
on his manly authority, in which case he asks huwo'?

I recall that the forms were substantially different
in Santee, but can't recall what they were.

In Iowa-Oto-Missouria, I believe the statement form
is ke for men and ki for women, but I don't recall
the full system.

This is an interesting sociolinguistic question.  I
wonder how widespread this sort of thing is outside
of Siouan?

Rory


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Jan 19 22:30:29 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:30:29 -0700
Subject: Male vs. female speech
In-Reply-To: <20050119212302.94433.qmail@web53802.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JAN.2005.153029.0700.>

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005, David Kaufman wrote:
> As I've been perusing the Dorsey/Swanton Biloxi dictionary and texts,
> I've been noticing many instances of male vs. female speech patterns.
> The one simple example I can think of at the moment is the optional
> declarative particle na for a male speaker, and ni for a female speaker

This is consistent with a slight Siouan tendency to final a in male
particles and e in female particles, though o (au) vs. a also occurs.

> (and, if I remember correctly, the question particle wo for male, wa for
> female).  It seems to be most prominent in commands, and there appear to
> be different command forms of verbs for male to male, male to female or
> child, female to female, female to male, etc.

I'd say this is true most places where "sex" of speaker particles occur:
prominent with imperative, common with declarative, trailing off into less
frequent categories.

I think I remember noticing that the female to male imperative was
homophonous with the optative.

> I'm wondering if this is a common feature of all Siouan languages, or is
> Taneks different in this respect.

This pattern occurs in Mississippi Valley except for Winnebago, where as
far as I can recall it is absent, even though the very similar Ioway-Otoe
has it.  The patterns in Dakotan and Dhegiha are fairly similar, though
different in detail.  Ioway-Otoe is a bit different.  Systems also occur
in Biloxi and I think Tutelo.   I can't remember for sure for Tutelo, Ofo,
and Crow and Hidatsa.

Mandan uses a similar system to mark sex of addressee.

I recommend acquiring a set of non-Biloxi grammars for comparison with
Biloxi, including Boas & Deloria "Teton," Lipkind "Winnebago," Whitman
"Ioway-Otoe," Kennard "Mandan," and maybe the Swanton & Boas "Siouan" and
Boas "Ponca."  More recent Dakota grammars like Rood & Taylor and Ingham
are also great references, and at this point I think Bob's Quapaw sketch
is going to be much more useful than Boas's Ponca one.  For Hidatsa at the
moment you're pretty much stuck with Matthews.  For Crow Randy's grammar
is almost out and much better than Lowie.  Robinett's Hidatsa grammar and
Kashcube's Crow grammar are pretty easy to track down, but take a bit of
work to understand.  Stripped of the formalism there's not a lot there,
though it's more detailed on morphology than Matthews or Lowie.

In the absence of a comprehensive set of reference grammars for Siouan
it's helpful to have a full set of brief documents available for the
various languages.  If you can't find something in one, go next door.  If
it occurs it's bound to be similar enough for the discussion to be
helpful.


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Jan 20 18:23:31 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:23:31 -0600
Subject: unicode Siouan
Message-ID: <THU.20.JAN.2005.122331.0600.>

> I remember an ardent IPAer arguing to the contrary on this point on
the Linguist List years ago and citing chapter and verse in the IPA
documents, but this is certainly the American assessment of what IPA was
intended for, perhaps arising from IPA originating before phonology was
widely seen as separate from phonetics?

Yeah, IPAers are nothing if not "ardent".  Actually, I think if you read
the fine print in some of the IPA footnotes they make provision for
things like hacek and maybe ogonek as alternatives, etc.  But you never
see them actually use those symbol sets, and I suspect they were put
there as sop for central Europeans who had them in their alphabets
already.  And phonology seems to be regressing nowadays anyway.

Having spent several posts talking about newer unicode fonts, I should
express all of our gratitude to John for making life with truetype fonts
so much easier for us all over the past decade or so.  Without SSDoulos
I'd probably still be writing in diacritics by hand a lot of the time!

Bob


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Jan 20 18:31:57 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:31:57 -0600
Subject: Male vs. female speech
Message-ID: <THU.20.JAN.2005.123157.0600.>

Sara Trechter has a paper she did comparing the gender-sensitive modals
in the various Siouan languages.  I don't remember if she published it
or not.  The Mississippi Valley languages all mark gender of speaker
(except Winnebago/Hocank), but Mandan and Biloxi mark gender of
addressee (and Biloxi, the speaker as well), and at least one of the
particles was cognate between MA and BI.  There is a good deal of
cognacy within Mississippi Valley as I recall.  The Biloxi data deserve
a lot more attention.  Most of us have only looked at the tabular data
in Dorsey & Swanton.  The texts contain a lot on usage as well.  I can't
recall how much Einaudi might have said about them.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Koontz John E
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 4:30 PM
To: Siouan List
Subject: Re: Male vs. female speech


On Wed, 19 Jan 2005, David Kaufman wrote:
> As I've been perusing the Dorsey/Swanton Biloxi dictionary and texts,
> I've been noticing many instances of male vs. female speech patterns.
> The one simple example I can think of at the moment is the optional
> declarative particle na for a male speaker, and ni for a female
> speaker

This is consistent with a slight Siouan tendency to final a in male
particles and e in female particles, though o (au) vs. a also occurs.

> (and, if I remember correctly, the question particle wo for male, wa
> for female).  It seems to be most prominent in commands, and there
> appear to be different command forms of verbs for male to male, male
> to female or child, female to female, female to male, etc.

I'd say this is true most places where "sex" of speaker particles occur:
prominent with imperative, common with declarative, trailing off into
less frequent categories.

I think I remember noticing that the female to male imperative was
homophonous with the optative.

> I'm wondering if this is a common feature of all Siouan languages, or
> is Taneks different in this respect.

This pattern occurs in Mississippi Valley except for Winnebago, where as
far as I can recall it is absent, even though the very similar
Ioway-Otoe has it.  The patterns in Dakotan and Dhegiha are fairly
similar, though different in detail.  Ioway-Otoe is a bit different.
Systems also occur
in Biloxi and I think Tutelo.   I can't remember for sure for Tutelo,
Ofo,
and Crow and Hidatsa.

Mandan uses a similar system to mark sex of addressee.

I recommend acquiring a set of non-Biloxi grammars for comparison with
Biloxi, including Boas & Deloria "Teton," Lipkind "Winnebago," Whitman
"Ioway-Otoe," Kennard "Mandan," and maybe the Swanton & Boas "Siouan"
and Boas "Ponca."  More recent Dakota grammars like Rood & Taylor and
Ingham are also great references, and at this point I think Bob's Quapaw
sketch is going to be much more useful than Boas's Ponca one.  For
Hidatsa at the moment you're pretty much stuck with Matthews.  For Crow
Randy's grammar is almost out and much better than Lowie.  Robinett's
Hidatsa grammar and Kashcube's Crow grammar are pretty easy to track
down, but take a bit of work to understand.  Stripped of the formalism
there's not a lot there, though it's more detailed on morphology than
Matthews or Lowie.

In the absence of a comprehensive set of reference grammars for Siouan
it's helpful to have a full set of brief documents available for the
various languages.  If you can't find something in one, go next door.
If it occurs it's bound to be similar enough for the discussion to be
helpful.


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Jan 20 18:49:13 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:49:13 -0600
Subject: unicode Siouan
Message-ID: <THU.20.JAN.2005.124913.0600.>

Will do.  The TITUS Cyberbit basic had all those strange alphabets
(Georgian, Armenian, etc.) but their symbols were awful-looking.  It
would be nice to have everything in Ariel.    Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Alan H. Hartley
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:50 PM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: Re: unicode Siouan


Have a look at the MS Arial Unicode font. It's big, but that's because
it has almost everything but the kitchen sink (IPA, Arabic, Hangul,
etc). It may now come with Windows, though I originally got it as a free

download.

Alan


From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 20 20:15:43 2005
From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:15:43 -0800
Subject: Male vs. female speech
In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164E87@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JAN.2005.121543.0800.>

-- Sara Trechter has a paper she did comparing the gender-sensitive modals
in the various Siouan languages. -- Hmmm.  It'd be interesting to try and get a copy somehow, if it's published.

-- The Biloxi data deserve a lot more attention. Most of us have only looked at the tabular data
in Dorsey & Swanton. The texts contain a lot on usage as well. I can't recall how much Einaudi might have said about them. --  While I don't have time right at the moment to do a thorough investigation of Einaudi's dissertation (which I have), I can say that from my recent perusal it appears she only mentions it in passing in a few places, especially the particles.  I don't see much mention about how the gender issue affects verbs.

Looks like I have my work cut out for me!  : )

Dave


"Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:
Sara Trechter has a paper she did comparing the gender-sensitive modals
in the various Siouan languages. I don't remember if she published it
or not. The Mississippi Valley languages all mark gender of speaker
(except Winnebago/Hocank), but Mandan and Biloxi mark gender of
addressee (and Biloxi, the speaker as well), and at least one of the
particles was cognate between MA and BI. There is a good deal of
cognacy within Mississippi Valley as I recall. The Biloxi data deserve
a lot more attention. Most of us have only looked at the tabular data
in Dorsey & Swanton. The texts contain a lot on usage as well. I can't
recall how much Einaudi might have said about them.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Koontz John E
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 4:30 PM
To: Siouan List
Subject: Re: Male vs. female speech


On Wed, 19 Jan 2005, David Kaufman wrote:
> As I've been perusing the Dorsey/Swanton Biloxi dictionary and texts,
> I've been noticing many instances of male vs. female speech patterns.
> The one simple example I can think of at the moment is the optional
> declarative particle na for a male speaker, and ni for a female
> speaker

This is consistent with a slight Siouan tendency to final a in male
particles and e in female particles, though o (au) vs. a also occurs.

> (and, if I remember correctly, the question particle wo for male, wa
> for female). It seems to be most prominent in commands, and there
> appear to be different command forms of verbs for male to male, male
> to female or child, female to female, female to male, etc.

I'd say this is true most places where "sex" of speaker particles occur:
prominent with imperative, common with declarative, trailing off into
less frequent categories.

I think I remember noticing that the female to male imperative was
homophonous with the optative.

> I'm wondering if this is a common feature of all Siouan languages, or
> is Taneks different in this respect.

This pattern occurs in Mississippi Valley except for Winnebago, where as
far as I can recall it is absent, even though the very similar
Ioway-Otoe has it. The patterns in Dakotan and Dhegiha are fairly
similar, though different in detail. Ioway-Otoe is a bit different.
Systems also occur
in Biloxi and I think Tutelo. I can't remember for sure for Tutelo,
Ofo,
and Crow and Hidatsa.

Mandan uses a similar system to mark sex of addressee.

I recommend acquiring a set of non-Biloxi grammars for comparison with
Biloxi, including Boas & Deloria "Teton," Lipkind "Winnebago," Whitman
"Ioway-Otoe," Kennard "Mandan," and maybe the Swanton & Boas "Siouan"
and Boas "Ponca." More recent Dakota grammars like Rood & Taylor and
Ingham are also great references, and at this point I think Bob's Quapaw
sketch is going to be much more useful than Boas's Ponca one. For
Hidatsa at the moment you're pretty much stuck with Matthews. For Crow
Randy's grammar is almost out and much better than Lowie. Robinett's
Hidatsa grammar and Kashcube's Crow grammar are pretty easy to track
down, but take a bit of work to understand. Stripped of the formalism
there's not a lot there, though it's more detailed on morphology than
Matthews or Lowie.

In the absence of a comprehensive set of reference grammars for Siouan
it's helpful to have a full set of brief documents available for the
various languages. If you can't find something in one, go next door.
If it occurs it's bound to be similar enough for the discussion to be
helpful.



		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
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From STrechter at csuchico.edu  Thu Jan 20 20:41:21 2005
From: STrechter at csuchico.edu (Trechter, Sara)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:41:21 -0800
Subject: Male vs. female speech
Message-ID: <THU.20.JAN.2005.124121.0800.>

I haven't notice that gender particles as evidentials affect the use of verbs at all although they do tend to occur with certain meanings more than others.  Verbs of presence or arrival often will receive an assertion particle if such information is a change of scene or new information, and therefore have a kind of deictic effect, locating the speaker with the respect to the utterance, or so I argues in my dissertation on Lakhota gender. This seems to be the case with the OP texts I've looked at as well.   
 
Some languages like Newari and a bunch in South America (whose names aren't at the tip of my fingers) have an intricate system matching the use of specific evidentials, verb meanings, and person, but I haven't found anything like this is Lakhota.  Lakhota seems to have a more fully developed system of gendered illocutionary/affective force particles than the other Mississippi Valley languages, but the basic commands and assertion particles are probably reconstructible within the Mississippi Valley branch.  If you send me your address, I'll send you the unpublished paper, where I go into the details. 
 
BTW, Haas' (1944) article in Language mentions the Biloxi particles with brief examples.  I've also noticed that a few of the particles that Dorsy and Swanton list in their introduction don't ever seem to occur in the texts.  
 
best, sara    
 
Dr. Sara Trechter, Associate Professor
Linguistics Program and English Department
CSU, Chico
Chico, CA 95926
(530) 898-4450 (fax)
(530) 898-5447 (office)
 


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Jan 20 21:08:08 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:08:08 -0600
Subject: Male vs. female speech
Message-ID: <THU.20.JAN.2005.150808.0600.>

 >  I haven't notice that gender particles as evidentials affect the use
of verbs at all although they do tend to occur with certain meanings
more than others.  Verbs of presence or arrival often will receive an
assertion particle if such information is a change of scene or new
information, and therefore have a kind of deictic effect, locating the
speaker with the respect to the utterance, or so I argues in my
dissertation on Lakhota gender. This seems to be the case with the OP
texts I've looked at as well.   

	>  Some languages like Newari and a bunch in South America
(whose names aren't at the tip of my fingers) have an intricate system
matching the use of specific evidentials, verb meanings, and person, but
I haven't found anything like this is Lakhota.   
	 
	RLR -- I think Aleksandra Aikhenvald probably has a number of
good papers on evidentials, especially in South America.  She worked in
the Vaupes region of Amazonia in Brazil and has written on evidentials.
She doesn't do any Siouan however.
	 
	>  Lakhota seems to have a more fully developed system of
gendered illocutionary/affective force particles than the other
Mississippi Valley languages,  
	 
	RLR -- This certainly seems to be true, but I've always wondered
if part of it wasn't that most of us arrived on the scene too late to
find examples of their full usage?  Bob
	 
	 

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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu Jan 20 21:34:12 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 14:34:12 -0700
Subject: Male vs. female speech
In-Reply-To: <20050120201543.17003.qmail@web53806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JAN.2005.143412.0700.>

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005, David Kaufman wrote:
> -- Sara Trechter has a paper she did comparing the gender-sensitive
> modals in the various Siouan languages. -- Hmmm.  It'd be interesting to
> try and get a copy somehow, if it's published.

I couldn't find a reference to the survey, but there is, of course, Sara's
specific work on Lakota gender markers.  Of course, in view of her
findings one is tempted to say "gender" markers, just to show there's more
to it, but I'll leave that to her.

At John Boyle's bibliography site:
http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/siouan_language.html

> Trechter, S. (1995). The pragmatic functions of gender deixis in
> Lakhota.  Lawarence, University of Kansas: 213.

This is Sara's dissertation, cf. the SSILA site dissertation list:
http://linguistics.buffalo.edu/ssila/dissertations/inddiss/d413.htm

> Trechter, Sara Ph.D., U. of Kansas, 1995. The Pragmatic Functions of
> Gender Deixis in Lakhota. 213 pp. [T. investigates the ways in which
> Lakhota clitics indicate the gender of the speaker, through an
> examination of folktales, autobiographical material, song texts, and
> informal conversations. In the first half of her dissertation she
> provides a general description of the function, use, and interpretation
> of the clitics. In the second half, she reexamines the concept of
> categorical gender (men display one usage and women another) in Native
> American languages and finds it invalid.  Individual, contextual use,
> however, reveals that gendered speech is partially a function of affect,
> stances, and genre that are considered socially appropriate to the
> sexes. Pragmatic constructs and ideology reflect and reinforce the
> concept of categorical gender in Lakhota, but at the same time they
> allow for individuation and change in the system. DAI 56(11):4384-A]
> [Order # DA-9609525] 4-96

A reference to a published version:
http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~jmw22/EofCsyll.html

> Trechter, Sarah 1999. Contextualizing the Exotic Few: Gender Dichotomies
> in Lakhota. In Reinventing Identities: The Gendered Self in Discourse.
> M.  Bucholtz, A.C. Liang, and L.A. Sutton, eds. Pp. 101-119. New York,
> Oxford:  Oxford University Press. Web

Also, like Ardis Eschenberg, Sara has been interested in the function and
evolution of plural marking.

Incidentally, Sara Trechter was named 2003-04 Outstanding Teacher at
Chico State.  (Congratulations, Sara!)


From rankin at ku.edu  Fri Jan 21 04:38:22 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 22:38:22 -0600
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
Message-ID: <THU.20.JAN.2005.223822.0600.>

For those of you who like Kevin Costner or Floyd Red
Crow Westerman and want to hear some spoken Lakota (or
that mysterious language no one can identify that is
supposed to be Pawnee), I see that the PAX network has
the movie scheduled for tomorrow (Friday) evening at 8
p.m. Central Time.  I don't know about other zones, but
the network is nationwide.

Bob


From phute-khniyanyan at cfl.rr.com  Fri Jan 21 12:34:27 2005
From: phute-khniyanyan at cfl.rr.com (phute-khniyanyan)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 07:34:27 -0500
Subject: Algonquian ( or ther group?)  term for White Buffalo Calf Woman?
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.073427.0500.>

The Lakhota have a legend about the coming of the White Buffalo Calf
Woman, who brings the ceremonial pipe to the Lakhotas.  The Lakhota term
for this person is "Pte Hinchila Ska (or SaN) Win".  My question is: Do
groups other than Siouan have this same or similar legend?  If so, what
is this person called?
 I ask this because, years ago in BAE, I came across identical stories
of the Lakhota trickster character "Iktomi", and the strategy he uses to
capture ducks by having them dance with their eyes closed, which was
identical to an Algonquian legend and their trickster character, even
though the Algonquian source of the legend was transcribed at a time
period when the Algonquian source was located far to the northeast of
the current location of the Lakhota.
Because the Algonquian were widely dispersed, it seems that a term for
White Buffalo Calf Woman would have been existed within this group, too.


From rankin at ku.edu  Fri Jan 21 15:10:59 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:10:59 -0600
Subject: Algonquian ( or ther group?)  term for White Buffalo Calf
 Woman?
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.091059.0600.>

I'm afraid I don't know the answer to this particular
question, but the story of trickster catching game
birds (ducks, gees turkeys in different versions) by
having them dance with their eyes closed  is VERY
widespread.  I have several versions of it from Kaw,
Omaha and Dakotan speakers and I heard a Sac and Fox
version last semester.  Is there an Algonquian listserv
out there anywhere?

Bob

----- Original Message -----
From: "phute-khniyanyan" <phute-khniyanyan at cfl.rr.com>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 6:34 AM
Subject: Algonquian ( or ther group?) term for White
Buffalo Calf Woman?


> The Lakhota have a legend about the coming of the
> White Buffalo Calf Woman, who brings the ceremonial
> pipe to the Lakhotas.  The Lakhota term for this
> person is "Pte Hinchila Ska (or SaN) Win".  My
> question is: Do groups other than Siouan have this
> same or similar legend?  If so, what is this person
> called? I ask this because, years ago in BAE, I came
> across identical stories of the Lakhota trickster
> character "Iktomi", and the strategy he uses to
> capture ducks by having them dance with their eyes
> closed, which was identical to an Algonquian legend
> and their trickster character, even though the
> Algonquian source of the legend was transcribed at a
> time period when the Algonquian source was located
> far to the northeast of the current location of the
> Lakhota.
> Because the Algonquian were widely dispersed, it
> seems that a term for White Buffalo Calf Woman would
> have been existed within this group, too.
>


From okibjonathan at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 21 16:10:20 2005
From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 08:10:20 -0800
Subject: Algonquian ( or other group?)  term for White Buffalo Calf
 Woman?
In-Reply-To: <003e01c4ffcb$6bbaba60$23b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.081020.0800.>

In the text, Teton Sioux Music by Frances Densmore, 1918, Bureau of American Ethnology, Bulletin 61, Smithsonian Institution, Washington, D.C., Government Printing Office, there is a chapter on Ceremonies which begins on page 63. The first topic is the legend of the White Buffalo Calf Maiden and how she brought the White Buffalo Calf Pipe referred to in the text as(Ptehin'Cala CanoN'pa) to the Sans Arc division of the Teton Lakota as dictated by an informant named Lone Man.

In two separate footnotes, there are references to other works.

Page 63 footnote:
"In connection with this chapter see Fletcher, Alice C., The White Buffalo Festival of the Uncpapas, Peabody Museum Reports, III, Nos. 3 and 4, pp.260-75, Cambridge, 1884."

Page 65 footnote:
"Cf. Bulletin 53, pp.143, 144, in which a woman is said to have been the supernatural means of bringing permanent peace between the Chippewa (aka Ojibway) and Sioux (aka Lakota)."

I hope this may give you some leads to what you were looking for. Just a cultural note however. Most early references to this female spiritual being talk about her as a "maiden" or young girl, not a "woman". She was said to be a virgin girl, about 14 years old in some stories. Which is why the stories talk about her changing into a White Buffalo "Calf", rather than a full grown Buffalo Cow. Therefore the term Lakota word "Win" may not be the accurate term to use in this case.

Good Luck,
Jonathan Holmes


"R. Rankin" <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:
I'm afraid I don't know the answer to this particular
question, but the story of trickster catching game
birds (ducks, gees turkeys in different versions) by
having them dance with their eyes closed is VERY
widespread. I have several versions of it from Kaw,
Omaha and Dakotan speakers and I heard a Sac and Fox
version last semester. Is there an Algonquian listserv
out there anywhere?

Bob

----- Original Message -----
From: "phute-khniyanyan"

To:
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 6:34 AM
Subject: Algonquian ( or ther group?) term for White
Buffalo Calf Woman?


> The Lakhota have a legend about the coming of the
> White Buffalo Calf Woman, who brings the ceremonial
> pipe to the Lakhotas. The Lakhota term for this
> person is "Pte Hinchila Ska (or SaN) Win". My
> question is: Do groups other than Siouan have this
> same or similar legend? If so, what is this person
> called? I ask this because, years ago in BAE, I came
> across identical stories of the Lakhota trickster
> character "Iktomi", and the strategy he uses to
> capture ducks by having them dance with their eyes
> closed, which was identical to an Algonquian legend
> and their trickster character, even though the
> Algonquian source of the legend was transcribed at a
> time period when the Algonquian source was located
> far to the northeast of the current location of the
> Lakhota.
> Because the Algonquian were widely dispersed, it
> seems that a term for White Buffalo Calf Woman would
> have been existed within this group, too.
>


		
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From okibjonathan at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 21 17:23:02 2005
From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:23:02 -0800
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
In-Reply-To: <002f01c4ff73$0a7c59a0$0cb5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.092302.0800.>

When "Dances With Wolves" first came out I found out that a couple of Lakota friends (Doris Leader Charge who is also in a couple of non-speaking scenes, and Albert White Hat, Sr.) had been instrumental in teaching the cast how to speak Lakota. Unfortunately other Lakota speakers from both Pine Ridge and Rosebud who watched the movie gave the cast an overall B+ for their ability. My Pawnee friends gave higher marks for the Pawnee language used in the movie. "They spoke good Pawnee." Still, the movie did much better than some other movies in the past.


"R. Rankin" <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:
For those of you who like Kevin Costner or Floyd Red
Crow Westerman and want to hear some spoken Lakota (or
that mysterious language no one can identify that is
supposed to be Pawnee), I see that the PAX network has
the movie scheduled for tomorrow (Friday) evening at 8
p.m. Central Time. I don't know about other zones, but
the network is nationwide.

Bob


		
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From rankin at ku.edu  Fri Jan 21 17:49:06 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:49:06 -0600
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.114906.0600.>

That's interesting.  I had heard that at least one Pawnee specialist
couldn't identify the language as Pawnee in the short clip in which it
was used.  As for the Lakota, I heard several different versions.  One
was that some of the film was done in Canada and that a number of Cree
speakers had to be coached on the Lakota dialog.  Others have told me
that most of the actors were actually Lakotas.  At least Floyd Westerman
and some of the other Lakota "elders" in the film seem to be fluent.
Bob

	-----Original Message-----
	From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Jonathan Holmes
	Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 11:23 AM
	To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
	Subject: Re: Dances with Wolves.
	
	
	When "Dances With Wolves" first came out I found out that a
couple of Lakota friends (Doris Leader Charge who is also in a couple of
non-speaking scenes, and Albert White Hat, Sr.) had been instrumental in
teaching the cast how to speak Lakota. Unfortunately other Lakota
speakers from both Pine Ridge and Rosebud who watched the movie gave the
cast an overall B+ for their ability. My Pawnee friends gave higher
marks for the Pawnee language used in the movie. "They spoke good
Pawnee." Still, the movie did much better than some other movies in the
past.


	"R. Rankin" <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:

		For those of you who like Kevin Costner or Floyd Red 
		Crow Westerman and want to hear some spoken Lakota (or 
		that mysterious language no one can identify that is 
		supposed to be Pawnee), I see that the PAX network has 
		the movie scheduled for tomorrow (Friday) evening at 8 
		p.m. Central Time. I don't know about other zones, but 
		the network is nationwide.
		
		Bob 
		
		

	
  _____  

	Do you Yahoo!?
	Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=30648/*http://movies.yahoo.com/movies/featur
e/jibjabinaugural.html> 

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From lcumberl at indiana.edu  Fri Jan 21 18:05:25 2005
From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:05:25 -0500
Subject: Algonquian ( or ther group?)  term for White Buffalo Calf
 Woman?
In-Reply-To: <41F0F6D3.4000900@cfl.rr.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.130525.0500.>

The Assiniboine do not have the White Buffalo Calf Woman in their tradition,
although she seems to be finding her way in as a result of ceremony
"revitalization" that dips into the more extensive record of Lakhota traditions
as a source, and also from recruiting Sioux holy men as leaders of major
ceremonies in Assiniboine communities.  As far as I can tell, the Assiniboine do
not have a specific origin story to account for the introduction of the pipe
(and all the social behaviors presumably introduced at the same time). I have
heard a couple of different stories, but on the whole, Assiniboine people say
only that use of the pipe is ancient. If one does the arithmetic counting back
from Arvol Looking Horse as 19th carrier of the Pipe, and assuming 20 years as a
generation, the appearance of the White Buffalo Calf Woman roughly coincides
with the hypothesized date for an Assiniobine/Sioux separation, which could
account for her absence in Assiniboine tradition. (19 x 20 + 380; hypothesized
separation approx. 400 yrs.). All of this is conjecture, though.

Linda

Quoting phute-khniyanyan <phute-khniyanyan at cfl.rr.com>:

> The Lakhota have a legend about the coming of the White Buffalo Calf
> Woman, who brings the ceremonial pipe to the Lakhotas.  The Lakhota term
> for this person is "Pte Hinchila Ska (or SaN) Win".  My question is: Do
> groups other than Siouan have this same or similar legend?  If so, what
> is this person called?
>  I ask this because, years ago in BAE, I came across identical stories
> of the Lakhota trickster character "Iktomi", and the strategy he uses to
> capture ducks by having them dance with their eyes closed, which was
> identical to an Algonquian legend and their trickster character, even
> though the Algonquian source of the legend was transcribed at a time
> period when the Algonquian source was located far to the northeast of
> the current location of the Lakhota.
> Because the Algonquian were widely dispersed, it seems that a term for
> White Buffalo Calf Woman would have been existed within this group, too.
>
>
>


From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU  Fri Jan 21 20:52:43 2005
From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:52:43 -0700
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D01233BCC@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.135243.0700.>

All of the main characters in this film are speaking Lakhota that they
learned just for the movie -- essentially they learned to mouth nonsense
(to them) sounds.  That the results resemble rather comprehensible, but
definitely non-native, Lakhota is kind of a major tribute to the actors'
imitative abilities.  But there is one scene that remains my favorite.
In a tipi after the buffalo hunt, some older women are discussing the
event.  They are not only speaking native Lakhota, they are using
traditional sign language to go along with their speaches.

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote:

> That's interesting.  I had heard that at least one Pawnee specialist
> couldn't identify the language as Pawnee in the short clip in which it
> was used.  As for the Lakota, I heard several different versions.  One
> was that some of the film was done in Canada and that a number of Cree
> speakers had to be coached on the Lakota dialog.  Others have told me
> that most of the actors were actually Lakotas.  At least Floyd Westerman
> and some of the other Lakota "elders" in the film seem to be fluent.
> Bob
>
> 	-----Original Message-----
> 	From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Jonathan Holmes
> 	Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 11:23 AM
> 	To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> 	Subject: Re: Dances with Wolves.
>
>
> 	When "Dances With Wolves" first came out I found out that a
> couple of Lakota friends (Doris Leader Charge who is also in a couple of
> non-speaking scenes, and Albert White Hat, Sr.) had been instrumental in
> teaching the cast how to speak Lakota. Unfortunately other Lakota
> speakers from both Pine Ridge and Rosebud who watched the movie gave the
> cast an overall B+ for their ability. My Pawnee friends gave higher
> marks for the Pawnee language used in the movie. "They spoke good
> Pawnee." Still, the movie did much better than some other movies in the
> past.
>
>
> 	"R. Rankin" <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:
>
> 		For those of you who like Kevin Costner or Floyd Red
> 		Crow Westerman and want to hear some spoken Lakota (or
> 		that mysterious language no one can identify that is
> 		supposed to be Pawnee), I see that the PAX network has
> 		the movie scheduled for tomorrow (Friday) evening at 8
> 		p.m. Central Time. I don't know about other zones, but
> 		the network is nationwide.
>
> 		Bob
>
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> 	Do you Yahoo!?
> 	Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=30648/*http://movies.yahoo.com/movies/featur
> e/jibjabinaugural.html>
>
>


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Jan 21 21:00:20 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:00:20 -0700
Subject: Algonquian ( or ther group?)  term for White Buffalo Calf
 Woman?
In-Reply-To: <003e01c4ffcb$6bbaba60$23b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.140020.0700.>

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, R. Rankin wrote:
> I'm afraid I don't know the answer to this particular question, but the
> story of trickster catching game birds (ducks, gees turkeys in different
> versions) by having them dance with their eyes closed is VERY
> widespread.  I have several versions of it from Kaw, Omaha and Dakotan
> speakers and I heard a Sac and Fox version last semester.

I haven't really run into an parallel for WBC Woman, though there could
easily be one I don't know of.  This sounds like a question for Jimm
Goodtracks or Jan Ullrich.  Actually, my only encounters with WBC Woman
have been people asking me if I've run into a parallel outside of Dakotan.
First they explain who she is, and then I say no.

Trickster is another matter.

There is a interesting study of the Trickster cycle and some others in
Winnebago (Hochank) by Paul Radin.  English texts are provided, with
extensive footnotes and some folkloric analysis.  I've always wondered
what happened to the Winnebago originals mentioned.  Many of the Trickster
stories in this volume and many of the others, too, are represented in the
Dorsey Omaha-Ponca text collection of 1890.

The Iktomi stories I've seen have a heavy overlap with the Winnebago and
Omaha-Ponca Trickster stories, but less than you find between those two.
I'm not sure if that impression would hold up under an extensive
cataloging effort, however.

At least some of the standard Mississippi Valley Trickster stories occur
also in Mandan (and so I assume also Crow and Hidatsa), in Cheyenne, and
in Wichita.  They seem to be different from the Coyote stories you run
into elsewhere, though there is some overlap.   There are actually a few
Omaha Coyote stories, perhaps imported.

The Dakota trickster Iktomi 'Spider' shares the sense of the name which
with Cheyenne.  I think that's a Northern pattern.  The Dhegiha,
Ioway-Otoe, and Winnebago Trickster is called (Omaha-Ponca version)
Is^tiniNkhe ~ IshtidhiNkhe.  The name might be rendered Ishtinike in
English spelling, but he is usually called Monkey in English by Omahas and
- I think - Poncas.  He appears physically as a human character with an
enormous phallos, detachable, that he keeps wrapped in a raccoon skin.
The name has no clear meaning other than Trickster, though the first part
Is^t- resembles is^ta' 'eye(s)' and might connect with the raccoon idea.

Another pattern for naming Trickster that occurs in the upper Missouri
area is using a name that is also applied to whitemen, resulting in
Trickster being called Whiteman in English.  This occurs in Cheyenne, too,
where a single term is used for spider(s), whiteman, and Trickster.

Another widespread cycle - with a lot of local variation - is the Twins
story, which is considerably abbreviated and missing its beginning and
later episodes in the Omaha-Ponca texts, though this is just chance, since
longer versions are available from LaFlesche and for Ioway-Otoe.  Also
Pawnee.  This cycle is important in the Southwest and Lowie's study of the
Hidatsa (and Crow) version calls it a "national epic" in that context.
In the Omaha-Ponca version the twins are sons of the Sun and after careful
training in monster slaying by their father track down and kill the
Two-Face monster who killed their mother, using a sun arrow.  Most of this
detail is missing from the truncated story in Dorsey 1890, but obviously
parallels the Navajo and Hidatsa versions.

While some stories shared by different groups seem to be cases of a whole
cycle and collection of ideas being shared, others seem to involve random
individual stories that appealed to someone.  Examples are:

The Omaha-Ponca story of Big Turtle's (Snapping Turtle's) War Party, which
I noticed in thumbing through a Fox collection.

The Omaha-Ponca story about a nation led by grizzly bear that abandons
its children, who then form a new tribe.  This has such a different view
of the kinship system and Ishtinike that Dorsey comments on the anomalies.
I discovered it in a Blackfoot collection where it appears perfectly in
context in a society based on age-grouping.  (And I understand the
tutelary Trickster who invents arrows and warfare is a northern element,
too.)

> Is there an Algonquian listserv out there anywhere?

Shannon West has one, but I think it is inactive.  My experience is that
to start one of these things you need to go out and draft people fairly
vigorously.  It's probably not necessary to be quite as officiously chatty
after that as I am, but occasional kick(re)starting is necessary.  Also,
some sort of gentle control over the discussion has to be exerted to avoid
some of the pitfalls, like, uh, well, wandering off too far (not yet, I
hope) into folklore or politics, or allowing monomaniacs (other than
oneself) to seize the soapbox and defend the Turko-Siouan connection or
Maddocism viciously against all comers.


From shanwest at shaw.ca  Fri Jan 21 21:15:16 2005
From: shanwest at shaw.ca (Shannon West)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:15:16 -0800
Subject: Algonquian ( or ther group?)  term for White Buffalo Calf
 Woman?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0501211231030.29600@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.131516.0800.>

Koontz John E wrote:

>On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, R. Rankin wrote:
>
>
>>Is there an Algonquian listserv out there anywhere?
>>
>>
>
>Shannon West has one, but I think it is inactive.  My experience is that
>to start one of these things you need to go out and draft people fairly
>vigorously.  It's probably not necessary to be quite as officiously chatty
>after that as I am, but occasional kick(re)starting is necessary.  Also,
>some sort of gentle control over the discussion has to be exerted to avoid
>some of the pitfalls, like, uh, well, wandering off too far (not yet, I
>hope) into folklore or politics, or allowing monomaniacs (other than
>oneself) to seize the soapbox and defend the Turko-Siouan connection or
>Maddocism viciously against all comers.
>
>
This is all true. I have one, and it's inactive. I don't even know if it
works anymore, since I had it on UVic servers, and I've since graduated.
But it's been into the years category since anyone has posted.

If people are interested in it again, I'd be willing to get it going.
Email me if you're interested. If I get 5 replies, I'll start 'er up. :)

And it's the Ugric-Siouan connection! ;)

Shannon - coloured silly by headache.


From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 21 21:17:18 2005
From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:17:18 -0800
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0501211348380.18488@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.131718.0800.>


-- They are not only speaking native Lakhota, they are using traditional sign language to go along with their speaches. --  This prompts me to ask: I had always heard that tribes used sign language when communicating with other tribes who spoke different languages.  But does this Lakhota example of using sign language in "Dances With Wolves" even among themselves mean that they also routinely used sign language amongst themselves to supplement their common spoken language?  Just curious.

Dave

ROOD DAVID S <rood at spot.Colorado.EDU> wrote:

All of the main characters in this film are speaking Lakhota that they
learned just for the movie -- essentially they learned to mouth nonsense
(to them) sounds. That the results resemble rather comprehensible, but
definitely non-native, Lakhota is kind of a major tribute to the actors'
imitative abilities. But there is one scene that remains my favorite.
In a tipi after the buffalo hunt, some older women are discussing the
event. They are not only speaking native Lakhota, they are using
traditional sign language to go along with their speaches.

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote:

> That's interesting. I had heard that at least one Pawnee specialist
> couldn't identify the language as Pawnee in the short clip in which it
> was used. As for the Lakota, I heard several different versions. One
> was that some of the film was done in Canada and that a number of Cree
> speakers had to be coached on the Lakota dialog. Others have told me
> that most of the actors were actually Lakotas. At least Floyd Westerman
> and some of the other Lakota "elders" in the film seem to be fluent.
> Bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Jonathan Holmes
> Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 11:23 AM
> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> Subject: Re: Dances with Wolves.
>
>
> When "Dances With Wolves" first came out I found out that a
> couple of Lakota friends (Doris Leader Charge who is also in a couple of
> non-speaking scenes, and Albert White Hat, Sr.) had been instrumental in
> teaching the cast how to speak Lakota. Unfortunately other Lakota
> speakers from both Pine Ridge and Rosebud who watched the movie gave the
> cast an overall B+ for their ability. My Pawnee friends gave higher
> marks for the Pawnee language used in the movie. "They spoke good
> Pawnee." Still, the movie did much better than some other movies in the
> past.
>
>
> "R. Rankin" wrote:
>
> For those of you who like Kevin Costner or Floyd Red
> Crow Westerman and want to hear some spoken Lakota (or
> that mysterious language no one can identify that is
> supposed to be Pawnee), I see that the PAX network has
> the movie scheduled for tomorrow (Friday) evening at 8
> p.m. Central Time. I don't know about other zones, but
> the network is nationwide.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
> > e/jibjabinaugural.html>
>
>


		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.
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From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU  Fri Jan 21 21:28:24 2005
From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:28:24 -0700
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
In-Reply-To: <20050121211718.36602.qmail@web53806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.142824.0700.>

You need to read Brenda Farnell's book on this topic, which I have to
confess I know only from hearsay and/or conference presentations I've
seen.  As I understand it, northern plains tribes use sign language in
parallel with spoken language for story-telling; people say that it's the
signs that give the story its "atmosphere".  I once saw Brenda demonstrate
her Assiniboine tapes to an audience that included Stoneys.  The Stoneys
couldn't understand the spoken language, but related totally to the signs.


David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, David Kaufman wrote:

>  -- They are not only speaking native Lakhota, they are using
> traditional sign language to go along with their speeches. -- This
> prompts me to ask: I had always heard that tribes used sign language
> when communicating with other tribes who spoke different languages.
> But does this Lakhota example of using sign language in "Dances With
> Wolves" even among themselves mean that they also routinely used sign
> language amongst themselves to supplement their common spoken language?
> Just curious.
>
> Dave
>
> ROOD DAVID S <rood at spot.Colorado.EDU> wrote:
>
> All of the main characters in this film are speaking Lakhota that they
> learned just for the movie -- essentially they learned to mouth nonsense
> (to them) sounds. That the results resemble rather comprehensible, but
> definitely non-native, Lakhota is kind of a major tribute to the actors'
> imitative abilities. But there is one scene that remains my favorite.
> In a tipi after the buffalo hunt, some older women are discussing the
> event. They are not only speaking native Lakhota, they are using
> traditional sign language to go along with their speaches.
>
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> 295 UCB
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu
>
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
>
> > That's interesting. I had heard that at least one Pawnee specialist
> > couldn't identify the language as Pawnee in the short clip in which it
> > was used. As for the Lakota, I heard several different versions. One
> > was that some of the film was done in Canada and that a number of Cree
> > speakers had to be coached on the Lakota dialog. Others have told me
> > that most of the actors were actually Lakotas. At least Floyd Westerman
> > and some of the other Lakota "elders" in the film seem to be fluent.
> > Bob
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Jonathan Holmes
> > Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 11:23 AM
> > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> > Subject: Re: Dances with Wolves.
> >
> >
> > When "Dances With Wolves" first came out I found out that a
> > couple of Lakota friends (Doris Leader Charge who is also in a couple of
> > non-speaking scenes, and Albert White Hat, Sr.) had been instrumental in
> > teaching the cast how to speak Lakota. Unfortunately other Lakota
> > speakers from both Pine Ridge and Rosebud who watched the movie gave the
> > cast an overall B+ for their ability. My Pawnee friends gave higher
> > marks for the Pawnee language used in the movie. "They spoke good
> > Pawnee." Still, the movie did much better than some other movies in the
> > past.
> >
> >
> > "R. Rankin" wrote:
> >
> > For those of you who like Kevin Costner or Floyd Red
> > Crow Westerman and want to hear some spoken Lakota (or
> > that mysterious language no one can identify that is
> > supposed to be Pawnee), I see that the PAX network has
> > the movie scheduled for tomorrow (Friday) evening at 8
> > p.m. Central Time. I don't know about other zones, but
> > the network is nationwide.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
> > > e/jibjabinaugural.html>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.


From jmcbride at kawnation.com  Fri Jan 21 21:54:19 2005
From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:54:19 -0600
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.155419.0600.>

> This prompts me to ask: I had always heard that tribes used sign language when communicating with other tribes who spoke different languages. 
> But does this Lakhota example of using sign language in "Dances With Wolves" even among themselves mean that they also routinely used
> sign language amongst themselves to supplement their common spoken language?  Just curious.

I'v always heard that back in the day, some of the older Osage men in my hometown of Pawhuska, OK, used to sit around on parkbenches signing all day long with each other.  Supposedly it was hours of silence punctuated by occasional laughter.  I heard the same stories about the Grayhorse elders.  Whenever they came into Fairfax, they'd sign back and forth instead of talking.  I don't know how true this is, of course, but that's just what I've heard.

-Justin
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From munro at ucla.edu  Fri Jan 21 23:21:26 2005
From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:21:26 -0800
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
In-Reply-To: <20050121172302.21520.qmail@web54507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.152126.0800.>

I guess I'll throw in my story on this.

My dear departed Lakhota teacher Hannah Left Hand Bull Fixico worked
with Kevin C. in Hollywood on the editing of the movie, an experience
that deeply impressed her (she sat with him and told him when it would
make sense to cut, etc.) -- he was very polite and deferential to her,
and she just loved him.

But when we sat down on one occasion with the video and tried to make a
transcript of one of the Lakhota conversations (among non-native
speakers), she was so dismayed by the quality of the Lakhota -- when it
came to writing it down word for word, rather than just letting it flow
along -- that she became very uncomfortable and didn't want to continue.
She would not, I think, have given as high a grade as B+...

Pam

Jonathan Holmes wrote:

> When "Dances With Wolves" first came out I found out that a couple
> of Lakota friends (Doris Leader Charge who is also in a couple of
> non-speaking scenes, and Albert White Hat, Sr.) had been instrumental
> in teaching the cast how to speak Lakota. Unfortunately other Lakota
> speakers from both Pine Ridge and Rosebud who watched the movie
> gave the cast an overall B+ for their ability. My Pawnee friends gave
> higher marks for the Pawnee language used in the movie. "They spoke
> good Pawnee." Still, the movie did much better than some other movies
> in the past.
>
>
> "R. Rankin" <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:
>
>     For those of you who like Kevin Costner or Floyd Red
>     Crow Westerman and want to hear some spoken Lakota (or
>     that mysterious language no one can identify that is
>     supposed to be Pawnee), I see that the PAX network has
>     the movie scheduled for tomorrow (Friday) evening at 8
>     p.m. Central Time. I don't know about other zones, but
>     the network is nationwide.
>
>     Bob
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=30648/*http://movies.yahoo.com/movies/feature/jibjabinaugural.html>



--
----
Pamela Munro
Professor, Department of Linguistics, UCLA
UCLA Box 951543
Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 USA
http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/linguistics/people/munro/munro.htm



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From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Sat Jan 22 00:05:38 2005
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:05:38 -0600
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
In-Reply-To: <41F18E76.1040605@ucla.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.180538.0600.>

> My dear departed Lakhota teacher Hannah Left Hand Bull Fixico

Judging from her last name, she must have had a Creek connection.


From munro at ucla.edu  Sat Jan 22 00:15:19 2005
From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:15:19 -0800
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
In-Reply-To: <41F198D2.9030304@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.161519.0800.>

True. Her husband was Creek. Pam

Alan H. Hartley wrote:

>> My dear departed Lakhota teacher Hannah Left Hand Bull Fixico
>
>
> Judging from her last name, she must have had a Creek connection.
>

--
Pamela Munro,
Professor, Linguistics, UCLA
UCLA Box 951543
Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543
http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/munro/munro.htm


From okibjonathan at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 22 20:08:42 2005
From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 12:08:42 -0800
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
In-Reply-To: <001d01c50003$c4199540$6000a8c0@Language>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JAN.2005.120842.0800.>

Whenever I have had the occassion, over the last 30 years, to sit with elders amongst the Osage, Ponca, Pawnee, Comanche, Oglala Lakota, Sicangu Lakota, Southern Cheyenne, Picuni Blackfoot, Sauk & Fox, and Kiowa, there is frequently a tendency for some elders to speak and sign with their hands at the same time whether they are speaking in english or their native tongue. It seems to be a natural extention of their expressive nature when telling a story, but not a lot of younger generations are picking up the habit.
Jonathan

Justin McBride <jmcbride at kawnation.com> wrote:
> This prompts me to ask: I had always heard that tribes used sign language when communicating with other tribes who spoke different languages.
> But does this Lakhota example of using sign language in "Dances With Wolves" even among themselves mean that they also routinely used
> sign language amongst themselves to supplement their common spoken language?  Just curious.

I'v always heard that back in the day, some of the older Osage men in my hometown of Pawhuska, OK, used to sit around on parkbenches signing all day long with each other.  Supposedly it was hours of silence punctuated by occasional laughter.  I heard the same stories about the Grayhorse elders.  Whenever they came into Fairfax, they'd sign back and forth instead of talking.  I don't know how true this is, of course, but that's just what I've heard.

-Justin

		
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From goodtracks at GBRonline.com  Sun Jan 23 02:49:27 2005
From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 20:49:27 -0600
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JAN.2005.204927.0600.>


I will have to concur with Jonathan's observation and remarks which coincide with my own experience.  One old Arapaho, Custer Lumpmouth, consistently and simultaneously signed while he conversed.
Since the passing of all these elders by 1990, this form of expression is all but lost, except for some intermittent minimal signing without conversation during Native American Church tipi prayer services.
I might note that it has become popular at powwows and exhibitions, shows, etc. to have an attractive young girl, usually in a buckskin dress to sign the Lord's Prayer to a background pre-recorded tape.  Once in the 80's, I asked and elderly Ioway uncle if he could follow along with the young girl as she signed the prayer.  He curtly replied "No!".   Apparently, something is lost in the process, when the signing becomes simply an entertaining act, rather than an actual form of communication.  I say this, as the young ladies would be virtually unable to sign nor understand a more typical interactive format.  
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jonathan Holmes 
  To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu 
  Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 2:08 PM
  Subject: Re: Dances with Wolves.


  Whenever I have had the occassion, over the last 30 years, to sit with elders amongst the Osage, Ponca, Pawnee, Comanche, Oglala Lakota, Sicangu Lakota, Southern Cheyenne, Picuni Blackfoot, Sauk & Fox, and Kiowa, there is frequently a tendency for some elders to speak and sign with their hands at the same time whether they are speaking in english or their native tongue. It seems to be a natural extention of their expressive nature when telling a story, but not a lot of younger generations are picking up the habit.
  Jonathan

  Justin McBride <jmcbride at kawnation.com> wrote:
    > This prompts me to ask: I had always heard that tribes used sign language when communicating with other tribes who spoke different languages. 
    > But does this Lakhota example of using sign language in "Dances With Wolves" even among themselves mean that they also routinely used
    > sign language amongst themselves to supplement their common spoken language?  Just curious.

    I'v always heard that back in the day, some of the older Osage men in my hometown of Pawhuska, OK, used to sit around on parkbenches signing all day long with each other.  Supposedly it was hours of silence punctuated by occasional laughter.  I heard the same stories about the Grayhorse elders.  Whenever they came into Fairfax, they'd sign back and forth instead of talking.  I don't know how true this is, of course, but that's just what I've heard.

    -Justin


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From goodtracks at GBRonline.com  Sun Jan 23 05:41:48 2005
From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:41:48 -0600
Subject: Algonquian ( or ther group?)  term for White Buffalo Calf
 Woman?
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JAN.2005.234148.0600.>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Koontz John E" <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
To: "Siouan List" <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: Algonquian ( or the group?) term for White Buffalo Calf Woman?


Among the Pawnee and Arickara, the parallel is Atira Reksu/ Atina Reksu
[Mother Corn].
Such a single Sacred Personage does not occur for the IOM.  Instead, the
Sacred Pipe and Teachings are woven into each individual Clan story with the
elements being unique to each Clan version names.  The bowl of the pipe is
discovered by the Bear Brothers [an Earth moiety] in the meeting of a little
spirit man.  The stem is later secured in a revelation of seeing a snag in
the water with moss hanging from it.  Also later, the Beaver Clan give a
stem to the Brothers, after one of the Brothers chews the end of the stem.
The Buffalo are said to have already had their Pipe when they came down to
the earth [Sky moiety].  I have looked into the Winnebago/ Hochank Clan
origin legends available and find a similarity to the IOM, although the
versions available are less informative than those for the IOM.
WBC seems to be unique to the L/Dakotas.

> I haven't really run into an parallel for WBC Woman, though there could
> easily be one I don't know of.  This sounds like a question for Jimm
> Goodtracks or Jan Ullrich.  Actually, my only encounters with WBC Woman
> have been people asking me if I've run into a parallel outside of Dakotan.
>
> Trickster is another matter.
> There is a interesting study of the Trickster cycle and some others in
> Winnebago (Hochank) by Paul Radin.  English texts are provided, with
> extensive footnotes and some folkloric analysis.   Many of the Trickster
> stories in this volume and many of the others, too, are represented in the
> Dorsey Omaha-Ponca text collection of 1890.
>

Yes, it is one of several good studies by P.Radin.

> The Iktomi stories I've seen have a heavy overlap with the Winnebago and
> Omaha-Ponca Trickster stories, but less than you find between those two.
>

This is true for the IOM stories as well, and the same is true as mentioned
below for the Hidatsa and Mandan, albeit, with anticipated variation as
would be expected.  And as suggested, I can see some stories seeming to have
been exchanged from other groups.
> At least some of the standard Mississippi Valley Trickster stories occur
> also in Mandan (and so I assume also Crow and Hidatsa), in Cheyenne, and
> in Wichita.  They seem to be different from the Coyote stories
> elsewhere, though there is some overlap.   There are actually a few
> Omaha Coyote stories, perhaps imported.
>

The D/Lakota Iktomi is the IOM Ishjinki [Is^jiNki].  In English, he is
simply referred to as "Old Man Ishjinki".  There is a story that he was
orphaned as a youngster, without discussion of how so.  He was raised by a
grandfather who killed a large raccoon, tanning the hide, cutting it into
strips, so the boy could wrap his extrodinary long genital, which he carries
upon his back.  The period between his youth and the time he becomes an old
man are quite absent.  All the remaining stories of Ishjinki occurr as an
old man.  There are a number of stories that entail situations which include
the use or misuse of his long member.  This was also noted in several of the
Mandan/ Hidatsa stories.  In one episode, he encounters a ground squirrel
who teases him and taunts him that he will bite his member.  Ultimately,
Ishjinki chases the squirrel to a hole in the ground.  Ishjinki trys to prod
him out with his erect member to which the squirrel bites off the end and
continues to whittle it down further to a contemporary size.  The story
concludes that had the squirrel not done this act, the Buffalo Clan people
would still be overly endowed.
Due to the rather saucy theme of these kind of story episodes, it becomes a
rather delicate matter to relate these stories to mixed audiences of
non-Natives, and even to some Natives themselves today.  Nevertheless, I
have recordings of elderly ladies in their 80s who had no difficulty
relating the episodes which they found to be amusing and of no other
consequence, and Christian teachings to wit, notwithstanding.  They laughed
together as one sang the the Wekan (story) song that is included with the
squirrel episode, as in their minds they could picture the ridiculousness of
such an old man going along with his "re'" drapped over his shoulder down
his back and then being teased by the little squirrel who sings the song.

> The Dakota trickster Iktomi 'Spider' shares the sense of the name which
> with Cheyenne.  I think that's a Northern pattern.  The Dhegiha,
> Ioway-Otoe, and Winnebago Trickster is called (Omaha-Ponca version)
> Is^tiniNkhe ~ IshtidhiNkhe.  The name might be rendered Ishtinike in
> English spelling, but he is usually called Monkey in English by Omahas and
> - I think - Poncas.  He appears physically as a human character with an
> enormous phallos, detachable, that he keeps wrapped in a raccoon skin.
> The name has no clear meaning other than Trickster
>

 In the Twins (below) they are actually born by an act of violence  in both
the Ioway/ Otoe-Missouria version, as well as the Hidatsa-Mandan version,
although by different evil beings.  The IOM have the father taking the
younger to the woods where he is abandoned and adopted by a wood rat
Grandmother.  He does so by fact of the father's inability to raise two
infants.  The northern version has the evil headless being throwing one to
an outside spring and the other to the back of the lodge.
In a conversation with a Navajo/ Dine woman, I learned that the Dine had
legend stories about the Twin Holy Boys.  A Dine friend lent me his book
called something like Dine Bezhanni or the like, which included the Dine
version of the Twins.  While I noted some parallels, the episodes were quite
divergent, more than any other versions I had read to date.
> Another widespread cycle - with a lot of local variation - is the Twins
> story, which is considerably abbreviated and missing its beginning and
> later episodes in the Omaha-Ponca texts, though this is just chance, since
> longer versions are available from LaFlesche and for Ioway-Otoe.  Also
> Pawnee.  This cycle is important in the Southwest and Lowie's study of the
> Hidatsa (and Crow) version calls it a "national epic" in that context.
> In the Omaha-Ponca version the twins are sons of the Sun and after careful
> training in monster slaying by their father track down and kill the
> Two-Face monster who killed their mother, using a sun arrow.  Most of this
> detail is missing from the truncated story in Dorsey 1890, but obviously
> parallels the Navajo and Hidatsa versions.
>
> While some stories shared by different groups seem to be cases of a whole
> cycle and collection of ideas being shared, others seem to involve random
> individual stories that appealed to someone.  Examples are:
>
> The Omaha-Ponca story of Big Turtle's (Snapping Turtle's) War Party, which
> I noticed in thumbing through a Fox collection.
>
> The Omaha-Ponca story about a nation led by grizzly bear that abandons
> its children, who then form a new tribe.  This has such a different view
> of the kinship system and Ishtinike that Dorsey comments on the anomalies.
> I discovered it in a Blackfoot collection where it appears perfectly in
> context in a society based on age-grouping.  (And I understand the
> tutelary Trickster who invents arrows and warfare is a northern element,
> too.)
>


From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk  Sun Jan 23 12:55:01 2005
From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 12:55:01 +0000
Subject: Fixico
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JAN.2005.125501.0000.>

As I recall froma  presnetation by Bill Sturtevant on names among
Seminole groups. Fixico is Muskogee /fik-siko/ 'without a heart' -
right, Pam?

Anthony
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From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Jan 23 15:19:19 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 09:19:19 -0600
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JAN.2005.091919.0600.>

> Once in the 80's, I asked and elderly Ioway uncle if
> he could follow along with the young girl as she
> signed the prayer.  He curtly replied "No!".
> Apparently, something is lost in the process, when
> the signing becomes simply an entertaining act,
> rather than an actual form of communication.  I say
> this, as the young ladies would be virtually unable
> to sign nor understand a more typical interactive
> format.

Last year I discovered that at least some of these
presentations by powwow princesses are being learned in
American Sign Language (ASL), not the Plains Sign
Language (PSL).  These are two different languages, and
someone who knows one of them won't be able to
interpret the other.  I expect that there are quite a
lot of people who believe that there is only one "sign
language".  This comes from the idea that signing is
just a form of pantomime.  But that idea is wrong:
signs are different in the various sign languages, and
there are hundreds of different sign languages in use,
mostly in deaf communities, worldwide.

Bob


From cstelfer at ucalgary.ca  Mon Jan 24 00:03:21 2005
From: cstelfer at ucalgary.ca (cstelfer at ucalgary.ca)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 17:03:21 -0700
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0501211424050.16134@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JAN.2005.170321.0700.>

> her Assiniboine tapes to an audience that included Stoneys.  The Stoneys
> couldn't understand the spoken language, but related totally to the
> signs.
>

I recall an anecdote which suggested that Stoneys could understand the
spoken language of the Assiniboines, but the reverse was not true.  I
think it was Linda Cumberland who told a story along these lines, but I
could be mistaken, or have the relationship reversed.

On another note, I know an older Stoney man who has been mute due to a
fever he had when he was somewhere around 12-14 years old.  He has
developed his own sign language which he uses to "speak" to his family
(he can hear fine, so his family only need to know how to "listen" to the
signs, not how to produce them).  What is of interest is that this sign
language bears no relationship to Plains Sign Talk as far as I know, as
his relatives tell me that they are the only ones who can interpret for
him.  So it seems that perhaps, at this point in time, the Stoneys have
lost Plains Sign Talk altogether.  Another interesting part of this story
is that this man's wife sometimes helps him "practice" ASL, I guess
because their ad hoc sign language isn't considered to be "real".
However, for a person who lives in an isolated area, has several relatives
and descendents (he's a grandfather) who can interpret for him and who has
no contact with a deaf community, it seems completely futile to learn ASL
-which probably explains why he has never mastered it.

Corey.







>
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> 295 UCB
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu
>
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, David Kaufman wrote:
>
>>  -- They are not only speaking native Lakhota, they are using
>> traditional sign language to go along with their speeches. -- This
>> prompts me to ask: I had always heard that tribes used sign language
>> when communicating with other tribes who spoke different languages.
>> But does this Lakhota example of using sign language in "Dances With
>> Wolves" even among themselves mean that they also routinely used sign
>> language amongst themselves to supplement their common spoken language?
>> Just curious.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> ROOD DAVID S <rood at spot.Colorado.EDU> wrote:
>>
>> All of the main characters in this film are speaking Lakhota that they
>> learned just for the movie -- essentially they learned to mouth
>> nonsense
>> (to them) sounds. That the results resemble rather comprehensible, but
>> definitely non-native, Lakhota is kind of a major tribute to the
>> actors'
>> imitative abilities. But there is one scene that remains my favorite.
>> In a tipi after the buffalo hunt, some older women are discussing the
>> event. They are not only speaking native Lakhota, they are using
>> traditional sign language to go along with their speaches.
>>
>> David S. Rood
>> Dept. of Linguistics
>> Univ. of Colorado
>> 295 UCB
>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
>> USA
>> rood at colorado.edu
>>
>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
>>
>> > That's interesting. I had heard that at least one Pawnee specialist
>> > couldn't identify the language as Pawnee in the short clip in which
>> it
>> > was used. As for the Lakota, I heard several different versions. One
>> > was that some of the film was done in Canada and that a number of
>> Cree
>> > speakers had to be coached on the Lakota dialog. Others have told me
>> > that most of the actors were actually Lakotas. At least Floyd
>> Westerman
>> > and some of the other Lakota "elders" in the film seem to be fluent.
>> > Bob
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
>> > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Jonathan Holmes
>> > Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 11:23 AM
>> > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
>> > Subject: Re: Dances with Wolves.
>> >
>> >
>> > When "Dances With Wolves" first came out I found out that a
>> > couple of Lakota friends (Doris Leader Charge who is also in a couple
>> of
>> > non-speaking scenes, and Albert White Hat, Sr.) had been instrumental
>> in
>> > teaching the cast how to speak Lakota. Unfortunately other Lakota
>> > speakers from both Pine Ridge and Rosebud who watched the movie gave
>> the
>> > cast an overall B+ for their ability. My Pawnee friends gave higher
>> > marks for the Pawnee language used in the movie. "They spoke good
>> > Pawnee." Still, the movie did much better than some other movies in
>> the
>> > past.
>> >
>> >
>> > "R. Rankin" wrote:
>> >
>> > For those of you who like Kevin Costner or Floyd Red
>> > Crow Westerman and want to hear some spoken Lakota (or
>> > that mysterious language no one can identify that is
>> > supposed to be Pawnee), I see that the PAX network has
>> > the movie scheduled for tomorrow (Friday) evening at 8
>> > p.m. Central Time. I don't know about other zones, but
>> > the network is nationwide.
>> >
>> > Bob
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _____
>> >
>> > Do you Yahoo!?
>> > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>> > > e/jibjabinaugural.html>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>>  Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.
>


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Mon Jan 24 07:25:46 2005
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 08:25:46 +0100
Subject: PSL
Message-ID: <MON.24.JAN.2005.082546.0100.>

"(...) This author found that by the 1980s, Plains Sign Language was no
longer commonly used on the northern plains because forced accommodation
to the English language had led to its gradual replacement. Its decline
mirrors that of many spoken languages of the Plains Indians. In the late
twentieth century fluent sign talkers are few, but they can be found in
several communities where elders learned the language at an early age,
where traditional storytelling keeps it alive, or where deafness in a
family has preserved its practical function. Signing remains in use
among the Assiniboins, Stoneys, Blackfeet, Piegans, Bloods, Crows, and
Northern Cheyennes, in contexts involving such activities as religious
ceremonies, drumming, and storytelling. This author has also noted that,
in speaking their native language, Plains people frequently use gestures
from the sign language to accompany their speech in everyday
interactions. The revival of interest in indigenous languages, and the
efforts to preserve them, have led to a renewed interest in the Plains
Sign Language. Among the Assiniboins at Fort Belknap, and on the
Blackfoot, Crow, and Northern Cheyenne Reservations in Montana, for
example, the sign language is being incorporated into
language-maintenance programs."


(Brenda Farnell, University of Iowa)


Alfred
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From rankin at ku.edu  Mon Jan 24 15:05:49 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:05:49 -0600
Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney.
Message-ID: <MON.24.JAN.2005.090549.0600.>

> I recall an anecdote which suggested that Stoneys
> could understand the
> spoken language of the Assiniboines, but the reverse
> was not true.  I
> think it was Linda Cumberland who told a story along
> these lines, but I
> could be mistaken, or have the relationship reversed.

I was talking with John Newman at Edmonton in October
and he felt that the two major Stoney dialect clusters
might be different in this regard.  The northern group
around Alexis were more able to interact with
Assiniboine, while the group from around Morley were
less able to do so.  But I too may have the
relationship reversed -- this was a casual conversation
driving in from the airport.

> On another note, I know an older Stoney man who has
> been mute due to a
> fever he had when he was somewhere around 12-14 years
> old.  He has
> developed his own sign language which he uses to
> "speak" to his family

This has probably happened hundreds if not thousands of
times in the world.  I suppose that only in a few
instances have such languages become community or
national signing systems.  Ulrike Zeshaan in Melbourne
is doing a comparative study of various Asian, Middle
Eastern and European sign languages.

Bob


From cstelfer at ucalgary.ca  Mon Jan 24 16:41:49 2005
From: cstelfer at ucalgary.ca (cstelfer at ucalgary.ca)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:41:49 -0700
Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney.
In-Reply-To: <004001c50226$31469810$1cb5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JAN.2005.094149.0700.>

Hi,


> I was talking with John Newman at Edmonton in October
> and he felt that the two major Stoney dialect clusters
> might be different in this regard.  The northern group
> around Alexis were more able to interact with
> Assiniboine, while the group from around Morley were
> less able to do so.  But I too may have the
> relationship reversed -- this was a casual conversation
> driving in from the airport.
>

I guess I should always distinguish between South Stoney (Morley, Eden
Valley and Big Horn reserves) and North Stoney (Alexis and Paul bands).
The South Stoneys have apparently lost the glottalized set of stops and
collapsed them with the aspirated series, but the Northern group have not.
 Both groups have innovative stress patterns that differ somewhat from
Assiniboine and Dakota, and from each other.  Since the North Stoneys have
a more conservative phonemic inventory, I'm guessing that it would be
easier for them to communicate with other groups than for the South
Stoneys.  However the North Stoneys also have a more innovative stress
pattern, and that could potentially cause a lot of confusion.


> Ulrike Zeshaan in Melbourne
> is doing a comparative study of various Asian, Middle
> Eastern and European sign languages.
>

I guess cultural differences might play some kind of role in this.  In
India the typical symbol for eating is to cup one hand and move the other
hand from hand to mouth with the fingers and thumb all touching each other
(as if holding a piece of flatbread).  Here we tend to do something along
the lines of putting our hands into fists to show the use of utensils.

It just occured to me that almost all of us use our hands when talking,
only we don't have a set sign language like the plains people did.  I
always laugh at my dad, who will use his hands when talking on the phone,
which is especially funny when he's giving someone directions.  I'm sure
both linguists and anthropologists have already looked into this
phenomenon in some detail, however I'm not aware of any academic research
on the subject.

Corey.


From lcumberl at indiana.edu  Mon Jan 24 19:02:36 2005
From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:02:36 -0500
Subject: Sign Language (was Dances with Wolves)
In-Reply-To: <1193.137.186.219.181.1106525001.squirrel@137.186.219.181>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JAN.2005.140236.0500.>

Quoting cstelfer at ucalgary.ca:

>
> I recall an anecdote which suggested that Stoneys could understand the
> spoken language of the Assiniboines, but the reverse was not true.  I
> think it was Linda Cumberland who told a story along these lines, but I
> could be mistaken, or have the relationship reversed.
>
Correct - I observed this at the first "No Borders" gathering of all peoples who
self-designate as Nakota, which incluldes Assiniboine, Stoney, (and Yanktonai,
although there were only two or three of them there). The meeting was held in
Alberta, hosted by the Alexis band of Stoneys. There are way more (and younger)
Stoney speakers than Assiniboine, so many of them gave their talks in Stoney -
all the Assiniboine folks sat there uncomprehending, but when at last one of the
few fluent Assiniboine speakers (Wilma Kennedy) gave some comments in
Assiniboine, all the Stoney folks followed along just fine, laughing in all the
appropriate places along with the Assiniboine folks in attendance, some of whom,
though not fluent speakers, understand their language quite well.


 What is of interest is that this sign
> language bears no relationship to Plains Sign Talk as far as I know, as
> his relatives tell me that they are the only ones who can interpret for
> him.

Among sign language specialists (I used to work for the Georgia Registry of
Interpreters for the Deaf when I was in the interpreter training program in
Atlanta) this is known as a "home signs" system. It is quite common among
congenitally deaf children of hearing parents. Each home-signs system is unique,
originating independently of each other.

So it seems that perhaps, at this point in time, the Stoneys have
> lost Plains Sign Talk altogether.  Another interesting part of this story
> is that this man's wife sometimes helps him "practice" ASL, I guess
> because their ad hoc sign language isn't considered to be "real".

It's real, since it succeeds as a communications sytstem, just unique.

> However, for a person who lives in an isolated area, has several relatives
> and descendents (he's a grandfather) who can interpret for him and who has
> no contact with a deaf community, it seems completely futile to learn ASL
> -which probably explains why he has never mastered it.

Right again. Sign is a medium just as sound is, and just as combinations of
sound can generate an infinite number of spoken languages, so can gesture
generate an infinite number of signed languages. It makes no more sense for a
home-signer to learn ASL than it would for me to learn Navaho as a means to
understand Assiniboine better.

Linda


From lcumberl at indiana.edu  Mon Jan 24 19:12:48 2005
From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:12:48 -0500
Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney.
In-Reply-To: <1200.137.186.219.181.1106584909.squirrel@137.186.219.181>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JAN.2005.141248.0500.>

Quoting cstelfer at ucalgary.ca:

Corey,

Is there an analysis of stress patterns in Stoney somewhere? I've been trying to
work it out for Assiniboine and I'm finding it maddenly complex. Shaw's 1985
article in the IJAL doesn't seem to apply, so I'm wondering if there's something
published on Stoney that might shed some light on Asb.

Linda
>
> I guess I should always distinguish between South Stoney (Morley, Eden
> Valley and Big Horn reserves) and North Stoney (Alexis and Paul bands).
. . .
>  Both groups have innovative stress patterns that differ somewhat from
> Assiniboine and Dakota, and from each other.  . . .However the North Stoneys
also have a more innovative stress
> pattern, and that could potentially cause a lot of confusion.
>


From mary.marino at usask.ca  Tue Jan 25 15:09:05 2005
From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:09:05 -0600
Subject: Sign Language (was Dances with Wolves)
In-Reply-To: <1106593356.41f5464cd5d38@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.090905.0600.>

At 01:02 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote:
>Quoting cstelfer at ucalgary.ca:
>
>I observed this at the first "No Borders" gathering of all peoples who
>self-designate as Nakota, which incluldes Assiniboine, Stoney, (and Yanktonai,
>although there were only two or three of them there).

Do the Yanktonai self-designate as Nakota?   Parks and DeMallie say they do
not, in their 1992 article in Anthropological Linguistics, on the basis of
data gathered during the Sioux Dialect Survey.

Mary Marino/University of Saskatchewan

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From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Jan 25 16:01:39 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 10:01:39 -0600
Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney.
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.100139.0600.>

> I was talking with John Newman at Edmonton in October
> and he felt that the two major Stoney dialect clusters
> might be different in this regard.

> I guess I should always distinguish between South Stoney (Morley, Eden
Valley and Big Horn reserves) and North Stoney (Alexis and Paul bands).
The South Stoneys have apparently lost the glottalized set of stops and
collapsed them with the aspirated series, but the Northern group have
not.

And the South group has those neat pharyngeals. . . .

Newman said the two groups migrated to their current locations in
southern and central Alberta via very different routes, suggesting some
significant time depth between the dialects.  Gee, a coupla good
reference grammars would be a good thing!  :-)      Bob


From rwd0002 at unt.edu  Tue Jan 25 16:50:05 2005
From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 10:50:05 -0600
Subject: Sign Language (was Dances with Wolves)
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050124210044.01eadd48@sask.usask.ca>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.105005.0600.>

Quoting Marino <mary.marino at usask.ca>:

> At 01:02 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote:
> >Quoting cstelfer at ucalgary.ca:
> >
> >I observed this at the first "No Borders" gathering of all peoples who
> >self-designate as Nakota, which includes Assiniboine, Stoney, (and
> Yanktonai,
> >although there were only two or three of them there).
>
> Do the Yanktonai self-designate as Nakota?   Parks and DeMallie say they do
> not, in their 1992 article in Anthropological Linguistics, on the basis of
> data gathered during the Sioux Dialect Survey.
>
> Mary Marino/University of Saskatchewan

I've have always gone with Parks and DeMallie (1992) on that, and referred
(even in print) anyone who needed to be put on the path of truth to them.  They
do self-designate as Dakota, right?  That is why it is very confusing to refer
to the Yankton/Yanktonai as Nakota or N-dialect.  The only groups who self-
designate as Nakota (or Nakoda) are the Assiniboines and the Stoneys, right?
Correct me if I misunderstood.

Willem


From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk  Tue Jan 25 17:52:49 2005
From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:52:49 +0000
Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney.
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.175249.0000.>

-And a dictionary or two wouldn't go amiss either.  I'm especially
interested in the impact that Cree has had on Stoney.

Anthony

>>> rankin at ku.edu 25/01/2005 16:01:39 >>>
> I was talking with John Newman at Edmonton in October
> and he felt that the two major Stoney dialect clusters
> might be different in this regard.

> I guess I should always distinguish between South Stoney (Morley,
Eden
Valley and Big Horn reserves) and North Stoney (Alexis and Paul bands).

The South Stoneys have apparently lost the glottalized set of stops
and
collapsed them with the aspirated series, but the Northern group have
not.

And the South group has those neat pharyngeals. . . .

Newman said the two groups migrated to their current locations in
southern and central Alberta via very different routes, suggesting
some
significant time depth between the dialects.  Gee, a coupla good
reference grammars would be a good thing!  :-)      Bob

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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue Jan 25 18:12:55 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:12:55 -0700
Subject: Dakota Dialects (was RE: Sign Language (was Dances with Wolves))
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050124210044.01eadd48@sask.usask.ca>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.111255.0700.>

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Marino wrote:
> >I observed this at the first "No Borders" gathering of all peoples who
> >self-designate as Nakota, which incluldes Assiniboine, Stoney, (and
> >Yanktonai, although there were only two or three of them there).
>
> Do the Yanktonai self-designate as Nakota?   Parks and DeMallie say they do
> not, in their 1992 article in Anthropological Linguistics, on the basis of
> data gathered during the Sioux Dialect Survey.

I wondered about that myself.  I don't recall what Parks & DeMallie said
about self-identification, but I do recall that they found based on the
speech forms collected in the course of the Dakota Dialect Survey that
Yanktonai(s) and Yankton are closely related to each other and form a
distinct Dakota(n) dialect different from Stoney (North or South),
Assiniboine, Teton or what they called Santee-Sisseton.  In terms of some
of the traditional shibboleths Yankton-Yanktonais would be what might be
called a "D-dialect."  But, then, another important finding of the Survey
was that the whole scholarly tradition of a three-way D : L : N dialect
division is faulty - that there are essentially the five dialects (or
dialect groupings) which Parks & DeMallie term Santee-Sisseton,
Yankton-Yanktonais, Teton, Assiniboine, and Stoney.

Did they go on to discuss the origins of the 3-way analysis?  I seem to
recall from somewhere - some of it was definitely David Rood's lectures -
that much of the traditional analysis of Dakota divisions and dialects
originated among the Santee communities Ponds, Riggs, etc., worked with,
and reflects a somewhat Santee-centric analysis of things, e.g., in its
detailed depiction of Santee (and Yankton) subdivisions vs. its rather
sweeping treatment of Teton, Assiniboine, and Stoney, or in its allocation
of importance in terms of identifying Seven Fires within the Dakota
speakers (exclusive of the Hohe or Assiboine and Stoney).

The usual ethnographic catalog of Dakota divisions starts with a detailed
depiction of the Santee and Yankton from these sources.  Then the Teton
people are elaborated upon using as I recall detail obtained later from
other sources more familiar with them.  In the context of the "Seven
Fires" this is handled as internal detail, while the internal divisions of
the Santee are presented as major divisions in their own right.  The
Yanktonais are usually mentioned in these lists as an offshoot of the
Assiniboine who joined the Seven Council Fires.  As I recall there are 4
Santee Fires, and the Yankton, Yanktonais, and Teton are each counted as
additional Fires, while the Hohe groups are not considered part of the
alliance.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue Jan 25 18:27:37 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:27:37 -0700
Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney.
In-Reply-To: <s1f6877f.017@emma.edgehill.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.112737.0700.>

And while we're at it, I don't think there has ever been much work with
Yankton-Yanktonai(s), perhaps at least partly because it was perceived
historically as an accidental nomenclatural association of a "D-dialect"
group and an "N-dialect"  group.  But then there hasn't been much (any?)
recent work on Santee-Sisseton either, so perhaps the problem has been the
neglect of the more easterly dialects, or all dialects, really, but Teton,
though recently things have improved for Assiniboine and Stoney.

I used to wonder if the perception of Yanktonais as an n-dialect was
confusion due to the =na diminutive in the name IhaNkthuNwaN=na.  As I
understand it, Santee has =daN ~ =na, with =na occurring after nasal
vowels, but I wasn't sure everyone considering the problem had realized
that.  In other words, perhaps some ethnographer deduced that the
Yanktonais spoke an N-dialect from their name.  However, I have since
noticed that the special status of the Yankton was actually part of the
original reports from Santee sources.

I don't know how the allomorphy of the diminutive works in
Yankton-Yanktonais, of course.

It is odd that the diminutive has nasalized =daN in Santee(-Sisseton?) but
is oral =la in Teton, but there are a number of other enclitics that are
nasalized in Santee(-Sisseton?) but not in Teton.  I don't know what the
nasality of the diminutive might be in Assiniboine or Stoney.  I mention
this from time to time hoping to discover someone who has thought of an
explanation for some of the conundrums!

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Anthony Grant wrote:
> -And a dictionary or two wouldn't go amiss either.  I'm especially
> interested in the impact that Cree has had on Stoney.


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Tue Jan 25 18:42:35 2005
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:42:35 -0600
Subject: Dakota Dialects (was RE: Sign Language (was Dances with
 Wolves))
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0501251041570.16376@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.124235.0600.>

Koontz John E wrote:
>>>I observed this at the first "No Borders" gathering of all peoples who
>>>self-designate as Nakota, which incluldes Assiniboine, Stoney, (and
>>>Yanktonai, although there were only two or three of them there).
>>
>>Do the Yanktonai self-designate as Nakota?   Parks and DeMallie say they do
>>not, in their 1992 article in Anthropological Linguistics, on the basis of
>>data gathered during the Sioux Dialect Survey.
>
>
> I wondered about that myself.  I don't recall what Parks & DeMallie said
> about self-identification

"the Yanktons and Yanktonais are the least well known of the Sioux
groups. When their speech was recorded in the nineteenth century, they
called themselves dak'ota..; there is no evidence that they ever called
themselves nak'ota." (Anthropol. Ling. 34.242)

Alan


From lcumberl at indiana.edu  Tue Jan 25 20:52:26 2005
From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 15:52:26 -0500
Subject: Sign Language (was Dances with Wolves)
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050124210044.01eadd48@sask.usask.ca>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.155226.0500.>

Glad you pointed that out - I should have qualified that comment. The few who
were at the gathering claimed to belong to the "larger Nakota nation" based on
their perception of lots of 'n's in their language. The folks who organized the
conference didn't have any particular criteria for attendance beyond people's
own perceptions. I which now that I had asked more questions at the time but
there was a lot going on. I don't think the perception of these few presents any
challenge to the statment in Parks and DeMallie 1992.

-L

Quoting Marino <mary.marino at usask.ca>:

> At 01:02 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote:
> >Quoting cstelfer at ucalgary.ca:
> >
> >I observed this at the first "No Borders" gathering of all peoples who
> >self-designate as Nakota, which incluldes Assiniboine, Stoney, (and
> Yanktonai,
> >although there were only two or three of them there).
>
> Do the Yanktonai self-designate as Nakota?   Parks and DeMallie say they do
> not, in their 1992 article in Anthropological Linguistics, on the basis of
> data gathered during the Sioux Dialect Survey.
>
> Mary Marino/University of Saskatchewan
>
>


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue Jan 25 21:15:27 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:15:27 -0700
Subject: Dakota Dialects (was RE: Sign Language (was Dances with
 Wolves))
In-Reply-To: <41F6931B.8040107@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.141527.0700.>

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> Koontz John E wrote:
> > I wondered about that myself.  I don't recall what Parks & DeMallie said
> > about self-identification
>
> "the Yanktons and Yanktonais are the least well known of the Sioux
> groups. When their speech was recorded in the nineteenth century, they
> called themselves dak'ota..; there is no evidence that they ever called
> themselves nak'ota." (Anthropol. Ling. 34.242)

In regard to the last comment, it occurs to me that whether the Yanktons
and Yanktonais ever called themselves nakhota, the evidence of the Dakota
Dialect Survey is fairly definitive that if that had they would have
pronounced it dakhota.

So, I conclude that Parks & DeMallie don't say anything about
self-identification as such?  In that case, of course, it would be
potentially possible for the Yanktonais or their neighbors to make an
identification about their connections not correlated with actual
Yanktonais speech practices.  The world is full of people who perceive
their dialect or someone else's through political lenses.  Barbed wire is
a sort of isogloss, I guess!

Another possibility would be that the Yanktonais originally spoke a
dialect related to Assiniboine, but have adopted or assimilated to Yankton
since then.  Unless there were relict forms or very early evidence there
would be nothing to support this but ethnographic report.  However, this
is obviously a possibility and I think something like this might explain
another ethnographic anomaly, which is why the various historical Hidatsa
villages had stories depicting themselves originating in various disjoint
locations - in effect, some originating along the Missouri and others at
some distance to the east of it.  This would be surprising if they had all
spoken ancestral (Crow-)Hidatsa at the times recounted, but plausible if
the (early Crow-)Hidatsa language were acquired subsequently in one case
or the other.  The simplest hypothesis in the context is that Crow-Hidatsa
came in with the easterners while the Missouri group originally spoke an
early form of Mandan.  Subsequent linguistic and ethnic realignments left
all of the later Hidatsa (and Crow) ancestral groups speaking acestral
Crow-Hidatsa, but retaining separate origin stories.  Some Mandan groups
remained as well, producing the historically attested situation.

Notice that if you adopt this sort of logic you have to account for Crow
in the same breath.  It makes no more sense to derive the language Hidatsa
from two different geographical points than it does to derive Crow and
Hidatsa from two different points.  It's true that one could imagine
dividing a population of speakers of ancestral Crow-Hidatsa into several
scattered pieces and having Crow and Hidatsa develop from two of them
(though not likely Hidatsa and more Hidatsa).  However, in that case there
is still an original point of unity somewhere in the background and the
origin stories (or archaeological hypotheses) are
both true only if the earlier period is not included in the story.

Given the need to account for the Crow and Hidatsa in the same breath it
seems easier to assume Crow and Hidatsa are always part of the same
history until known to be different, and since the Crow seem to lack
definitive stories about early history, it seems simplest to go with the
Hidatsa version.  So, it seems likely that Crow derives from Missouri
River "(Crow-)Hidatsa" villages that, like the Cheyenne, were compelled by
problems (and lured by advantages) into an entirely nomadic existance,
presumably at about the same time in the 1700s.  Since essentially all of
the Missouri River villagers were actually practicing a seasonal mixture
of settlement and nomadic hunting, switching to an entirely nomadic
existence is not a complete change, but only an exansion of one pattern
that is proving successful (nomadism with advent of horses) at the expense
of one that is not (sedentarism in the face of hostile gun-armed
neighbors).

In the same vein I suspect it makes more sense to see the Kiowa as pueblo
people who converted to a nomadic existence, than as the one Tanoan group
that has always remained wanderers.  However, the Kiowa do have a very
elaborate origin story that I don't think admits any period of pueblo
existence.


From mary.marino at usask.ca  Tue Jan 25 22:25:21 2005
From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:25:21 -0600
Subject: Sign Language (was Dances with Wolves)
In-Reply-To: <1106671805.41f678bdaae6e@eaglemail.unt.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.162521.0600.>

Willem -

This is certainly my understanding, but I wonder if the "fallacy of the
Nakota Sioux" has become so entrenched that it is accepted even by D and L
speakers. Mary



At 10:50 AM 1/25/2005, you wrote:
>Quoting Marino <mary.marino at usask.ca>:
>
> > At 01:02 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote:
> > >Quoting cstelfer at ucalgary.ca:
> > >
> > >I observed this at the first "No Borders" gathering of all peoples who
> > >self-designate as Nakota, which includes Assiniboine, Stoney, (and
> > Yanktonai,
> > >although there were only two or three of them there).
> >
> > Do the Yanktonai self-designate as Nakota?   Parks and DeMallie say
> they do
> > not, in their 1992 article in Anthropological Linguistics, on the basis of
> > data gathered during the Sioux Dialect Survey.
> >
> > Mary Marino/University of Saskatchewan
>
>I've have always gone with Parks and DeMallie (1992) on that, and referred
>(even in print) anyone who needed to be put on the path of truth to
>them.  They
>do self-designate as Dakota, right?  That is why it is very confusing to
>refer
>to the Yankton/Yanktonai as Nakota or N-dialect.  The only groups who self-
>designate as Nakota (or Nakoda) are the Assiniboines and the Stoneys, right?
>Correct me if I misunderstood.
>
>Willem


From cstelfer at ucalgary.ca  Tue Jan 25 22:27:05 2005
From: cstelfer at ucalgary.ca (cstelfer at ucalgary.ca)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 15:27:05 -0700
Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney.
In-Reply-To: <s1f6877f.017@emma.edgehill.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.152705.0700.>

Hi,

   There was a guy named John Laurie who worked for the government of
Alberta who wrote a small grammar and a dictionary (for South Stoney).
I've seen them in the archives of the Glenbow Museum in downtown
Calgary, and they're not bad.  They were written in the 50's and Mr.
Laurie went and lived with a family out at Morley in order to do the
work.  He was made an honourary chief at some point in his career.  I'm
going to try and get our university library to get a copy of John
Laurie's stuff (he also wrote down a lot of stories and cultural info),
because the cost for me to copy everything myself would be quite
expensive.  I believe Dr. Newman up at the U of A is using Laurie's
stuff for his work, and last summer David Rood told me he had a copy of
the dictionary.

   As far as I know, Cree has had no impact on South Stoney.  The Cree
would have had to go all the way through Blackfoot country to get to
the Stoneys, and the Blackfoot and the Cree never got along too well.
I think that South Stoney might be more likely to have influences from
Kootenay, Tsuut'ina (Sarcee) and Blackfoot before it had influences
from Cree.  There are some Cree people who live at Morley now, but that
is a recent development I believe.  I think the Blackfoot, on the other
hand, intermarried with the Cree on occasion, and there are certainly a
good number of Cree-Blackfoot marriages now.  As for the North Stoneys,
from what I've seen the vocabulary corresponds more or less perfectly
with Stoney and other Dakotan languages - I've never heard of either of
the Stoney branches being subjected to any Cree influence either
politically or linguistically.


> -And a dictionary or two wouldn't go amiss either.  I'm especially
> interested in the impact that Cree has had on Stoney.
>
> Anthony
>
>>>> rankin at ku.edu 25/01/2005 16:01:39 >>>
>> I was talking with John Newman at Edmonton in October
>> and he felt that the two major Stoney dialect clusters
>> might be different in this regard.
>
>> I guess I should always distinguish between South Stoney (Morley,
> Eden
> Valley and Big Horn reserves) and North Stoney (Alexis and Paul bands).
>
> The South Stoneys have apparently lost the glottalized set of stops
> and
> collapsed them with the aspirated series, but the Northern group have
> not.
>
> And the South group has those neat pharyngeals. . . .
>
> Newman said the two groups migrated to their current locations in
> southern and central Alberta via very different routes, suggesting
> some
> significant time depth between the dialects.  Gee, a coupla good
> reference grammars would be a good thing!  :-)      Bob
>
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From mary.marino at usask.ca  Tue Jan 25 22:56:32 2005
From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:56:32 -0600
Subject: Dakota Dialects (was RE: Sign Language (was Dances with
 Wolves))
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0501251041570.16376@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.165632.0600.>

John,

Parks and DeMallie don't actually say anything directly about Yanktonai
self-identification, but since 'dakhota'  was one of the words they
elicited and which they offer among 20-odd sets showing the differences
among the 5 dialects, their Yanktonai respondents were clearly not
self-identifying as 'nakhota'.  Maybe 'self-identification'  in a
socio-cultural context is a different sort of mental operation from
responding to a dialect survey. This is by no means impossible, and is part
of what prompted my question.

They don't actually discuss the origins of the 3-way analysis.  Riggs
identified 4 forms of Sioux and reported the h-k-g correspondence and
seemed to assign as much importance to it, as to d-n-l.

You're right about the Council Fires.  That tradition must predate the
westward expansion and socio-political elaboration of the Teton.

Mary

At 12:12 PM 1/25/2005, you wrote:
>On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Marino wrote:
> > >I observed this at the first "No Borders" gathering of all peoples who
> > >self-designate as Nakota, which incluldes Assiniboine, Stoney, (and
> > >Yanktonai, although there were only two or three of them there).
> >
> > Do the Yanktonai self-designate as Nakota?   Parks and DeMallie say they do
> > not, in their 1992 article in Anthropological Linguistics, on the basis of
> > data gathered during the Sioux Dialect Survey.
>
>I wondered about that myself.  I don't recall what Parks & DeMallie said
>about self-identification, but I do recall that they found based on the
>speech forms collected in the course of the Dakota Dialect Survey that
>Yanktonai(s) and Yankton are closely related to each other and form a
>distinct Dakota(n) dialect different from Stoney (North or South),
>Assiniboine, Teton or what they called Santee-Sisseton.  In terms of some
>of the traditional shibboleths Yankton-Yanktonais would be what might be
>called a "D-dialect."  But, then, another important finding of the Survey
>was that the whole scholarly tradition of a three-way D : L : N dialect
>division is faulty - that there are essentially the five dialects (or
>dialect groupings) which Parks & DeMallie term Santee-Sisseton,
>Yankton-Yanktonais, Teton, Assiniboine, and Stoney.
>
>Did they go on to discuss the origins of the 3-way analysis?  I seem to
>recall from somewhere - some of it was definitely David Rood's lectures -
>that much of the traditional analysis of Dakota divisions and dialects
>originated among the Santee communities Ponds, Riggs, etc., worked with,
>and reflects a somewhat Santee-centric analysis of things, e.g., in its
>detailed depiction of Santee (and Yankton) subdivisions vs. its rather
>sweeping treatment of Teton, Assiniboine, and Stoney, or in its allocation
>of importance in terms of identifying Seven Fires within the Dakota
>speakers (exclusive of the Hohe or Assiboine and Stoney).
>
>The usual ethnographic catalog of Dakota divisions starts with a detailed
>depiction of the Santee and Yankton from these sources.  Then the Teton
>people are elaborated upon using as I recall detail obtained later from
>other sources more familiar with them.  In the context of the "Seven
>Fires" this is handled as internal detail, while the internal divisions of
>the Santee are presented as major divisions in their own right.  The
>Yanktonais are usually mentioned in these lists as an offshoot of the
>Assiniboine who joined the Seven Council Fires.  As I recall there are 4
>Santee Fires, and the Yankton, Yanktonais, and Teton are each counted as
>additional Fires, while the Hohe groups are not considered part of the
>alliance.


From cstelfer at ucalgary.ca  Tue Jan 25 22:59:23 2005
From: cstelfer at ucalgary.ca (cstelfer at ucalgary.ca)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 15:59:23 -0700
Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney.
In-Reply-To: <1106593968.41f548b0dd2e2@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.155923.0700.>

> Quoting cstelfer at ucalgary.ca:
>
> Corey,
>
> Is there an analysis of stress patterns in Stoney somewhere? I've been
> trying to
> work it out for Assiniboine and I'm finding it maddenly complex. Shaw's
> 1985
> article in the IJAL doesn't seem to apply, so I'm wondering if there's
> something
> published on Stoney that might shed some light on Asb.
>
> Linda
>>

Well, yes, a lady named Corrie Rhyassen-Erdman wrote her MA entitled
"Stress in Stoney" in 1997.  However the title is a little misleading
since she is dealing only with North Stoney (Alexis Band), which it turns
out, has a completely different stress system from South Stoney.  I am
currently writing a paper where I am analyzing both the North and South
Stoney stress patterns in Optimality Theory, and trying to figure out how
they might have historically evolved.  In doing research for this paper I
ordered Levin (1964) through our library, but after looking at the
phonology section, it appeared to me that Assiniboine stress was identical
to that of Dakota as described and analyzed by Shaw (1980).  Is this not
correct?

    I can photocopy Rhyassen-Erdman's thesis and send it to you, but I
imagine it won't be much help since the North Stoney stress pattern is
so different from both South Stoney and Dakota.  Still, it might help
to look at it, so maybe send me your address off-list if you want me
to send it to you.

    For others interested in Stoney resources, I should list the other two
University of Calgary Master's Theses written on Stoney (these are
both based on the South Stoney dialect spoken in Morley):


Bellam, Jay E.  1975.  "Studies in Stoney phonology and morphology."

Harbeck, Warren A.  1980.  "Some agreement phenomena in Stoney."


Should send copies of all three theses to John Boyle?  If anybody's
interested in seeing these please contact me.

Corey.


From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU  Tue Jan 25 23:17:54 2005
From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:17:54 -0700
Subject: Laurie's dictionary
In-Reply-To: <1174.136.159.141.36.1106693963.squirrel@136.159.141.36>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.161754.0700.>

The Siouan Archives has a copy of Laurie's dictionary and his grammar of
Stoney; the dictionary is in electronically readable form, but in the
Siouan Archive character set (only upper case roman letters with two and
three character sequences for anything else).  It's organized
alphabetically by English within part of speech categories (i.e. all the
verbs are first, all the adverbs are last, with each category alphabetized
separately).  I haven't figured out the writing system, and it doesn't
appear that he's marked stress.  Below is a little sample from the middle
of the archive's file, the nouns; line numbers refer to what we would
nowadays call "fields" in a database.  This has not been proofread.  The
whole dictionary is in seven Word files (but it's an old version of Word
-- my computer today refused to recognize the formatting, but reproduced
the substance of the files anyway).

1 PEEN YAN HEEN
2 CRANE
3 NOUN
11 P.41
1 HOO HOO GEECH ON BEEN SKADABEE
2 CRAPS
3 NOUN
11 P.41
1 PAHOO HOO
2 CRANUIM
3 NOUN
11 P.41
1 CHAN WAK'EN
2 CRATE
3 NOUN
11 P.41
1 ATHUMBEE EN#HNEE
2 CREAM (CREAM OF MILK)
3 NOUN
11 P.41


David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Jan 26 05:00:30 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:00:30 -0700
Subject: Dakota Dialects
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050125162724.01ec9480@sask.usask.ca>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.220030.0700.>

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Mary Marino wrote:
> Parks and DeMallie don't actually say anything directly about Yanktonai
> self-identification, but since 'dakhota' was one of the words they
> elicited and which they offer among 20-odd sets showing the differences
> among the 5 dialects, their Yanktonai respondents were clearly not
> self-identifying as 'nakhota'.  Maybe 'self-identification' in a
> socio-cultural context is a different sort of mental operation from
> responding to a dialect survey. This is by no means impossible, and is
> part of what prompted my question.

That's part of what I was wondering, too, along with the other issue Mary
mentioned to Cory - that perhaps identification was influenced by the
literature.  I know that folks working with Dhegiha speakers on linguistic
issues - which leads readily to culteral discussions - are widely referred
to various standards with comments like "But of course if you're
interested in that sort of thing why don't you just read (some relevant
published source)."  The impression I had was that Omaha elders like
Wilson Wolfe (deceased) were much better read in the Omaha ethnographic
literature than I was or may ever be.  So I suspect Yanktonais are quite
familiar with the report that Yanktonai(s) is an N-dialect, even though,
ironically, very little investigation of the Yanktonais language has
actually been done.  (But I may be underestimating this through ignorance
of less well known Dakotan materials.)

> They don't actually discuss the origins of the 3-way analysis.  Riggs
> identified 4 forms of Sioux and reported the h-k-g correspondence and
> seemed to assign as much importance to it, as to d-n-l.

Which would indicate that the canonicalization of the d-n-l division was
subsequent to Riggs.  I wonder what the history of it was?

> You're right about the Council Fires.  That tradition must predate the
> westward expansion and socio-political elaboration of the Teton.

I may be misunderstanding you, but I suspect that the socio-political
elaboration of the Teton is less a consequence of their westward expansion
than a post-Riggsian discovery of a pre-existing but previously unreported
situation.  There may well have been some elaboration during the
expansion.  In the same way the number of Santee divisions has probably
decreased or at least changed under the impact of American and Ojibwe
incursions.  But I think there were already several Teton divisions
comparable in nature to the Santee divisions by the time of contact.  I
think that the depiction of the seven Dakota Council Fires as we know it,
with the Teton lumped into one Fire, arises from the logic of the
presentation and from the circumstance that the presentation was of Santee
origin.

I don't know that there's any evidence at all for a formal Seven Council
Fires alliance or entity, but there was clearly some prevailing notion of
coherence arising from linguistic factors as well as others, and there
could also easily have been inter-band meetings - the colonial powers and
Americans arranged several themselves - in which the ideal of a Dakota
unity was expressed.  There is also a cultural tendency to organize things
in fours and sevens.

Given this milieu, if you asked a Santee-Sisseton speaker what the various
Dakota groups were you might well get an elaboration in terms of seven
groups.  The bulk of these would be local Santee-speaking entities - the
four Santee groups.  This nice appropriate number of local entities could
then be raised to the next appropriate number, seven, by adding to it
three more distant clumps without differentiating within them groups
comparable in size to the four Santee groups.  It would be in some sense
necessary to separate the Yankton from the Yanktonais, and to suppress the
divisions of the Teton, no matter how much information was available about
Yankton and Teton internal divisions, because only this approach would
yield the necessary number three of additional groups.  Of course, it
would also be likely that less would be known about more distant groups.

If an account of historical Dakota organization included the
Yankton-Yanktonais and Teton at the same level of detail that the Seven
Council Fires account uses for the Santee there would be more than seven
Dakota groups.  Alternatively, if the account presented the Santee at the
same level that the Seven Council Fires accounts uses for the Yankton,
Yanktonais and Teton, there would be fewer than seven groups.  Either way
it would probably do violence to the rhetorical and logical sense of the
Seven Council Fires account's presenter.  Furthermore, providing less
detail about more distant and less well known groups, and more detail
about well known local groups would probably also be in line with the
presenter's sense of duty to the subject.  It presents what can honestly
be presented and elaborates where possible.

There was probably no one absolutely correct, logically coherent,
completely satisfying account of Dakota subgrouping.  A question could
always have been raised as to whether this group or that was structurally
comparable to another group, and it would always have been unclear how
many divisions and levels of divisions to use to organize the
progressively changing continuum of bands.  So, given the difficulties of
achieving a perfect but debatable analysis, a division into seven somewhat
arbitrary but convenient groups for presentational purposes can be seen as
a rhetorical strategy rather than a falsifiable assertion about Dakota
enthnology.

Returning to the issue of the ennumeration, a reasonable consideration
would be on what basis the Assiniboine-Stoney are not included, since they
are explicitly mentioned.  This is rationalized in the Seven Council Fires
account in terms of alliance (orabsence of enmity), as I recall, while in
addition an attempt is made to connect these groups with the Yanktonais,
thus placing them within the scheme.  I think, however, that these
rationalizations is just that - a rhetorical dismissal of a apparent
deviation from the presenter's thesis.  If the Assiniboine-Stoney were
recognized as a group they would be an eighth group and the logic of the
presentation would be lost, so they are not an eighth group by one logic
or another.

This assumes that the presenter had some particular logic not known to us
for distinguishing the Yankton and Yanktonais, and so was not willing to
supress that distinction to accomodate the Assiniboine-Stoney.  The logic
may simply have been that a particular seven had already been ennumerated
and it was too late to revise it when the issue of accomodating the
Assiniboine-Stoney arose.

So I think that distinguishment of seven bodies of Dakota speakers is a
consequence not of there being seven inherent and comparable bodies, but
of seven being a conventional number of elements in a catalog.  If the
first sources on Dakota subdivisions had been Teton or Yankton the catalog
canonized in the literature would still probably have included seven
groups, but the details would probably have been quite different -
presumably four groups of Tetons or Yanktons and three of more distant
others.

Incidentally I think at one point in the BAE's Synonymy Dorsey suggests
somewhat guardedly that it looks to him like it might make more sense to
divide the Santee into five groups.  But his logic was based on comparable
entities and produced in a presentational framework that more easily
accomodated revisions.

(I have to credit this general line of thinking and some of the details to
David Rood who gave a succinct version of it in class at one point in
response to a question.  He might well want to disavow all kinds of things
in this long-winded recapitulation and elaboration.)


From wablenica at mail.ru  Wed Jan 26 08:48:54 2005
From: wablenica at mail.ru (Wablenica)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:48:54 +0300
Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney.
Message-ID: <WED.26.JAN.2005.114854.0300.>

Hello everybody.

Can anybody determine the subdialect of this 1-minute Stoney dialog:
http://iyapi.net/stoney.mp3 (~280kb)

Thank you.
Constantine.


From rankin at ku.edu  Wed Jan 26 17:44:25 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R.Rankin)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:44:25 -0600
Subject: Stoney.
Message-ID: <WED.26.JAN.2005.114425.0600.>

Wow, I wouldn't have identified it as Dakotan at first.  I definitely heard
[gamma], [s^], [z^] but no [theta] or pharyngeals, so I'd guess it isn't the
southern dialect, but I am not the best person to ask.  It certainly sounds
quite different from Lakota.

Bob

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wablenica" <wablenica at mail.ru>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 2:48 AM
Subject: [Spam:0005 SpamScore] RE: Assiniboine and Stoney.


> Hello everybody.
>
> Can anybody determine the subdialect of this 1-minute Stoney dialog:
> http://iyapi.net/stoney.mp3 (~280kb)
>
> Thank you.
> Constantine.
>
>


From mary.marino at usask.ca  Thu Jan 27 15:26:27 2005
From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:26:27 -0600
Subject: Dakota Dialects
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0501251936210.2055@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.27.JAN.2005.092627.0600.>

At 11:00 PM 1/25/2005, you wrote:
>On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Mary Marino wrote:
> > Parks and DeMallie don't actually say anything directly about Yanktonai
> > self-identification, but since 'dakhota' was one of the words they
> > elicited and which they offer among 20-odd sets showing the differences
> > among the 5 dialects, their Yanktonai respondents were clearly not
> > self-identifying as 'nakhota'.  Maybe 'self-identification' in a
> > socio-cultural context is a different sort of mental operation from
> > responding to a dialect survey. This is by no means impossible, and is
> > part of what prompted my question.
>
>That's part of what I was wondering, too, along with the other issue Mary
>mentioned to Cory - that perhaps identification was influenced by the
>literature.  I know that folks working with Dhegiha speakers on linguistic
>issues - which leads readily to culteral discussions - are widely referred
>to various standards with comments like "But of course if you're
>interested in that sort of thing why don't you just read (some relevant
>published source)."  The impression I had was that Omaha elders like
>Wilson Wolfe (deceased) were much better read in the Omaha ethnographic
>literature than I was or may ever be.  So I suspect Yanktonais are quite
>familiar with the report that Yanktonai(s) is an N-dialect, even though,
>ironically, very little investigation of the Yanktonais language has
>actually been done.  (But I may be underestimating this through ignorance
>of less well known Dakotan materials.)
>
> > They don't actually discuss the origins of the 3-way analysis.  Riggs
> > identified 4 forms of Sioux and reported the h-k-g correspondence and
> > seemed to assign as much importance to it, as to d-n-l.
>
>Which would indicate that the canonicalization of the d-n-l division was
>subsequent to Riggs.  I wonder what the history of it was?

I think a part of the "history" might simply be its fatal attraction as a
linguistic/cultural cliche.  Sound correspondence reflected in the *actual*
tribal names - one fact to remember instead of two, and easily memorable at
that.  First-year textbook stuff.


> > You're right about the Council Fires.  That tradition must predate the
> > westward expansion and socio-political elaboration of the Teton.
>
>I may be misunderstanding you, but I suspect that the socio-political
>elaboration of the Teton is less a consequence of their westward expansion
>than a post-Riggsian discovery of a pre-existing but previously unreported
>situation.  There may well have been some elaboration during the
>expansion.  In the same way the number of Santee divisions has probably
>decreased or at least changed under the impact of American and Ojibwe
>incursions.  But I think there were already several Teton divisions
>comparable in nature to the Santee divisions by the time of contact.  I
>think that the depiction of the seven Dakota Council Fires as we know it,
>with the Teton lumped into one Fire, arises from the logic of the
>presentation and from the circumstance that the presentation was of Santee
>origin.
>
>I don't know that there's any evidence at all for a formal Seven Council
>Fires alliance or entity, but there was clearly some prevailing notion of
>coherence arising from linguistic factors as well as others, and there
>could also easily have been inter-band meetings - the colonial powers and
>Americans arranged several themselves - in which the ideal of a Dakota
>unity was expressed.  There is also a cultural tendency to organize things
>in fours and sevens.
>
>Given this milieu, if you asked a Santee-Sisseton speaker what the various
>Dakota groups were you might well get an elaboration in terms of seven
>groups.  The bulk of these would be local Santee-speaking entities - the
>four Santee groups.  This nice appropriate number of local entities could
>then be raised to the next appropriate number, seven, by adding to it
>three more distant clumps without differentiating within them groups
>comparable in size to the four Santee groups.  It would be in some sense
>necessary to separate the Yankton from the Yanktonais, and to suppress the
>divisions of the Teton, no matter how much information was available about
>Yankton and Teton internal divisions, because only this approach would
>yield the necessary number three of additional groups.  Of course, it
>would also be likely that less would be known about more distant groups.
>
>If an account of historical Dakota organization included the
>Yankton-Yanktonais and Teton at the same level of detail that the Seven
>Council Fires account uses for the Santee there would be more than seven
>Dakota groups.  Alternatively, if the account presented the Santee at the
>same level that the Seven Council Fires accounts uses for the Yankton,
>Yanktonais and Teton, there would be fewer than seven groups.  Either way
>it would probably do violence to the rhetorical and logical sense of the
>Seven Council Fires account's presenter.  Furthermore, providing less
>detail about more distant and less well known groups, and more detail
>about well known local groups would probably also be in line with the
>presenter's sense of duty to the subject.  It presents what can honestly
>be presented and elaborates where possible.
>
>So I think that distinguishment of seven bodies of Dakota speakers is a
>consequence not of there being seven inherent and comparable bodies, but
>of seven being a conventional number of elements in a catalog.  If the
>first sources on Dakota subdivisions had been Teton or Yankton the catalog
>canonized in the literature would still probably have included seven
>groups, but the details would probably have been quite different -
>presumably four groups of Tetons or Yanktons and three of more distant
>others.

Well, this is way more than I had in mind, at any rate.  To unpack the
essentials:  1) there is the number 7 (of whatever-it-is that we are
discussing: a culturally approved and valued number); 2) there is the
"oceti" (council fire) concept:   elastic as a socio-political term (It
could be a territorial unit, or a band, or some other division of the
people), 3) there is the information possessed by a knowledgeable leader or
elder of the group's traditions and the existing divisions of the people in
a known region.  These elements could configure in various ways to produce
all sorts of "oceti sakowin"  sets of council-fire groups.  Does this in
fact happen?  I have only ever heard of one "oceti sakowin"  list.   Is the
oceti sakowin an important concept among Teton groups?   I can only recall
reading about it in reference to Dakota groups.

My idea is simply this:  if "oceti sakowin"  were a single, invariant
tradition, it might go back to a time when the Teton, Yankton and Yanktonai
were  three *single units* - on a par- at least in cultural understanding,
with the Santee, Wahpeton, Sisseton and Mdewakanton.


From parksd at indiana.edu  Thu Jan 27 22:43:51 2005
From: parksd at indiana.edu (Parks, Douglas R.)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:43:51 -0500
Subject: Dakota Dialects
Message-ID: <THU.27.JAN.2005.174351.0500.>

John and Mary,

Allow me to clarify several points that have been under discussion.

(1)  The Yanktonai, like the Yanktons, identify themselves in English as
"Dakotas."  There is no historical evidence that the Yanktonai ever
identified themselves as nakhota, and I have never heard a contemporary
speaker (and here I mean on all the five reservations where the
subdialects are spoken) self-identify using an n.  Cook in 1880-82
similarly recorded the term with an initial d.  The history of the
fallacy that Yanktonais referred to themselves with an n is given in
DeMallie's and my paper, pp. 242-48.  James Howard is the 20th century
promoter of the use of the n form, and his assertions have been accepted
by many, particularly younger people who like the "neat" classification
that it provides.

(2)  There actually has been a fair amount of work accomplished on
Yanktonai, although unpublished.  Based on work with speakers from
Standing Rock and Devil's Lake, but including the other communities,
I've compiled a reasonably extensive dictionary database, and Ray has
recorded and transcribed a modest collection of texts.  (See HNAI
13(1):98.)

(3)  For the Ochethi Shakowin, see DeMallie (HNAI 13(2):735-48).

Doug

__________________________________________________

Douglas R. Parks
Professor of Anthropology
Associate Director, American Indian Studies Research Institute
Indiana University
422 North Indiana Avenue
Bloomington, IN  47408

Phone  812.855.4123
Fax  812.855.7529  ||  E-mail  parksd at indiana.edu  ||  AISRI web site
http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Koontz John E
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 12:01 AM
To: Siouan List
Subject: Re: Dakota Dialects

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Mary Marino wrote:
> Parks and DeMallie don't actually say anything directly about
Yanktonai
> self-identification, but since 'dakhota' was one of the words they
> elicited and which they offer among 20-odd sets showing the
differences
> among the 5 dialects, their Yanktonai respondents were clearly not
> self-identifying as 'nakhota'.  Maybe 'self-identification' in a
> socio-cultural context is a different sort of mental operation from
> responding to a dialect survey. This is by no means impossible, and is
> part of what prompted my question.

That's part of what I was wondering, too, along with the other issue
Mary
mentioned to Cory - that perhaps identification was influenced by the
literature.  I know that folks working with Dhegiha speakers on
linguistic
issues - which leads readily to culteral discussions - are widely
referred
to various standards with comments like "But of course if you're
interested in that sort of thing why don't you just read (some relevant
published source)."  The impression I had was that Omaha elders like
Wilson Wolfe (deceased) were much better read in the Omaha ethnographic
literature than I was or may ever be.  So I suspect Yanktonais are quite
familiar with the report that Yanktonai(s) is an N-dialect, even though,
ironically, very little investigation of the Yanktonais language has
actually been done.  (But I may be underestimating this through
ignorance
of less well known Dakotan materials.)

> They don't actually discuss the origins of the 3-way analysis.  Riggs
> identified 4 forms of Sioux and reported the h-k-g correspondence and
> seemed to assign as much importance to it, as to d-n-l.

Which would indicate that the canonicalization of the d-n-l division was
subsequent to Riggs.  I wonder what the history of it was?

> You're right about the Council Fires.  That tradition must predate the
> westward expansion and socio-political elaboration of the Teton.

I may be misunderstanding you, but I suspect that the socio-political
elaboration of the Teton is less a consequence of their westward
expansion
than a post-Riggsian discovery of a pre-existing but previously
unreported
situation.  There may well have been some elaboration during the
expansion.  In the same way the number of Santee divisions has probably
decreased or at least changed under the impact of American and Ojibwe
incursions.  But I think there were already several Teton divisions
comparable in nature to the Santee divisions by the time of contact.  I
think that the depiction of the seven Dakota Council Fires as we know
it,
with the Teton lumped into one Fire, arises from the logic of the
presentation and from the circumstance that the presentation was of
Santee
origin.

I don't know that there's any evidence at all for a formal Seven Council
Fires alliance or entity, but there was clearly some prevailing notion
of
coherence arising from linguistic factors as well as others, and there
could also easily have been inter-band meetings - the colonial powers
and
Americans arranged several themselves - in which the ideal of a Dakota
unity was expressed.  There is also a cultural tendency to organize
things
in fours and sevens.

Given this milieu, if you asked a Santee-Sisseton speaker what the
various
Dakota groups were you might well get an elaboration in terms of seven
groups.  The bulk of these would be local Santee-speaking entities - the
four Santee groups.  This nice appropriate number of local entities
could
then be raised to the next appropriate number, seven, by adding to it
three more distant clumps without differentiating within them groups
comparable in size to the four Santee groups.  It would be in some sense
necessary to separate the Yankton from the Yanktonais, and to suppress
the
divisions of the Teton, no matter how much information was available
about
Yankton and Teton internal divisions, because only this approach would
yield the necessary number three of additional groups.  Of course, it
would also be likely that less would be known about more distant groups.

If an account of historical Dakota organization included the
Yankton-Yanktonais and Teton at the same level of detail that the Seven
Council Fires account uses for the Santee there would be more than seven
Dakota groups.  Alternatively, if the account presented the Santee at
the
same level that the Seven Council Fires accounts uses for the Yankton,
Yanktonais and Teton, there would be fewer than seven groups.  Either
way
it would probably do violence to the rhetorical and logical sense of the
Seven Council Fires account's presenter.  Furthermore, providing less
detail about more distant and less well known groups, and more detail
about well known local groups would probably also be in line with the
presenter's sense of duty to the subject.  It presents what can honestly
be presented and elaborates where possible.

There was probably no one absolutely correct, logically coherent,
completely satisfying account of Dakota subgrouping.  A question could
always have been raised as to whether this group or that was
structurally
comparable to another group, and it would always have been unclear how
many divisions and levels of divisions to use to organize the
progressively changing continuum of bands.  So, given the difficulties
of
achieving a perfect but debatable analysis, a division into seven
somewhat
arbitrary but convenient groups for presentational purposes can be seen
as
a rhetorical strategy rather than a falsifiable assertion about Dakota
enthnology.

Returning to the issue of the ennumeration, a reasonable consideration
would be on what basis the Assiniboine-Stoney are not included, since
they
are explicitly mentioned.  This is rationalized in the Seven Council
Fires
account in terms of alliance (orabsence of enmity), as I recall, while
in
addition an attempt is made to connect these groups with the Yanktonais,
thus placing them within the scheme.  I think, however, that these
rationalizations is just that - a rhetorical dismissal of a apparent
deviation from the presenter's thesis.  If the Assiniboine-Stoney were
recognized as a group they would be an eighth group and the logic of the
presentation would be lost, so they are not an eighth group by one logic
or another.

This assumes that the presenter had some particular logic not known to
us
for distinguishing the Yankton and Yanktonais, and so was not willing to
supress that distinction to accomodate the Assiniboine-Stoney.  The
logic
may simply have been that a particular seven had already been
ennumerated
and it was too late to revise it when the issue of accomodating the
Assiniboine-Stoney arose.

So I think that distinguishment of seven bodies of Dakota speakers is a
consequence not of there being seven inherent and comparable bodies, but
of seven being a conventional number of elements in a catalog.  If the
first sources on Dakota subdivisions had been Teton or Yankton the
catalog
canonized in the literature would still probably have included seven
groups, but the details would probably have been quite different -
presumably four groups of Tetons or Yanktons and three of more distant
others.

Incidentally I think at one point in the BAE's Synonymy Dorsey suggests
somewhat guardedly that it looks to him like it might make more sense to
divide the Santee into five groups.  But his logic was based on
comparable
entities and produced in a presentational framework that more easily
accomodated revisions.

(I have to credit this general line of thinking and some of the details
to
David Rood who gave a succinct version of it in class at one point in
response to a question.  He might well want to disavow all kinds of
things
in this long-winded recapitulation and elaboration.)


From wablenica at mail.ru  Fri Jan 28 09:14:12 2005
From: wablenica at mail.ru (Wablenica)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:14:12 +0300
Subject: Non-Dakotan Siouan speech online
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JAN.2005.121412.0300.>

Hello everybody.
I wonder are there the speech samples of Non-Dakotan Siouan languages online?

Thank you
Constantine.


From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de  Fri Jan 28 16:08:39 2005
From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Heike_B=F6deker?=)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:08:39 +0100
Subject: synchronization of gesture and speech (was: Sign Language)
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050125162158.01e96738@sask.usask.ca>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JAN.2005.170839.0100.>

There's quite impressive work on synchronization of gesture (not
necessarily coincident with sign language even where one would be
available, too) and speech by John Haviland and David Wilkins for
some Australian and Mesoamerican languages (IIRC also in comparison
to Dutch). Alas I can't offer a comprehensive bibliography right
away.

When I did fieldwork people did stress the importance of accompanying
speech by appropriate gestures. The problem is, alas, they didn't
specify what was to be considered appropriate. And neither had I read
the abovementioned authors at that time, so I didn't know even where
to start to look :-((((

All the best,

Heike


From jmcbride at kawnation.com  Fri Jan 28 17:04:05 2005
From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:04:05 -0600
Subject: synchronization of gesture and speech (was: Sign Language)
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JAN.2005.110405.0600.>

> When I did fieldwork people did stress the importance of accompanying
> speech by appropriate gestures. The problem is, alas, they didn't
> specify what was to be considered appropriate. And neither had I read
> the abovementioned authors at that time, so I didn't know even where
> to start to look :-((((

I've always wondered how about the word order in Plains Sign Language,
especially in syncronizing signs with speech.  How many of the tribes that
used the signs were typologically SOV languages?  For that matter, how many
recognized "grammars" of PSL once existed?  And if there were more than a
few varieties, was it just a more or less common lexicon that leads to its
consideration as a single language?  Is there any other info on this out
there?


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue Jan  4 20:23:07 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 13:23:07 -0700
Subject: FYI - BAE Publications in PDF on Lexus-Nexus
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JAN.2005.132307.0700.>

I've been told that the Lexus-Nexus commercial service carries the BAE
publication series in PDF format.  I don't know any details, but this may
be of interest to those of you who have access through university
reference services.

John E. Koontz
http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz


From tmleonard at cox.net  Wed Jan  5 00:52:28 2005
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 18:52:28 -0600
Subject: FYI - BAE Publications in PDF on Lexus-Nexus
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JAN.2005.185228.0600.>

Lexus-Nexus Academic has a good deal of the BAE Bulletins and Annual
Reports, but not a complete collection. Plus, L-N is arranged sort of funny.
I've found the BAEs in the "Congressional Section - Full Historical Texts"
area. Use very general search terms, like "ethnology" and "bulletin" or
"report". "Smithsonian" also brings up some others. Those terms will return
a selection with the report or bulletin number. So, it helps if you have the
BAE index ahead of time (that's available in several places).

You can also limit the search by "agency" (e.g. Bureau of Ethnology-Interior
or Bureau of Ethnology-Smithsonian). Believe it or not, those limits bring
up other BAEs.

Not much after 1920 or so, but a good representation pre-1920. That gives
you nearly all of Dorsey, LaFlesche, et. al.

Anyone know of other sites for historical documents and ethnologies?


From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Wed Jan  5 11:21:45 2005
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham)
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:21:45 +0000
Subject: Wanikiya Tun
In-Reply-To: <41CC24DC.4080102@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JAN.2005.112145.0000.>

On 24/12/04 2:17 pm, "Alfred W. T?ting" <ti at fa-kuan.muc.de> wrote:

> Wanikiya Tunpi Taanpetu Waste nahan Omaka Teca iyuskinyanpi ye !
> 
> (wani'kxiya txuN'pi txa?aN'petu was^te' nahaN' o'makxa txe'ca iyus^'kiNyaNpi
> ye!)
> 
> 
> Alfred
> 

Nis^ eya omaka was^te luha kta wacin
Bruce


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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Thu Jan  6 14:53:36 2005
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:53:36 +0100
Subject: Wanikiya Tun -> omaka
Message-ID: <THU.6.JAN.2005.155336.0100.>

 > Nis^ eya omaka was^te luha kta wacin

 > Bruce

He un lila pilamayayelo!


BTW, I have a question to the Siouanist experts here:
Dealing with Dell Hymes' work "In vain I tried to tell you", recently, I
ran into this statement:
"In winter the peripheral world of supernatural power and myth came
closer, spirit-power was sought and initiations into the control of
power held, and myths formally told. Myths, in fact, were not to be told
in summer for fear of rattlesnake bite. With spring, Chinookans, like
flowers, emerged from underground to a new world. The root for "world,
country, land, earth" indeed also has the meaning "year", pointing up
the interdependence of recurring time with the recurrences of the
seasonal round." (p. 21)

Apart from all this sounding very familiarily Chinese to me, here's my
query: how's this in Siouan etymology? As for Dakota, the word for
'season/year' _omaka_ obviously comprises _maka_ [makxa'] 'earth' etc.
plus the locative (or whatever) prefix _o-_.

Alfred
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From bi1 at soas.ac.uk  Tue Jan 11 10:33:35 2005
From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:33:35 +0000
Subject: Wanikiya Tun -> omaka
In-Reply-To: <41DD50F0.1050501@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JAN.2005.103335.0000.>

I?m sure that the connection is as you say makha ?earth? and the abstract
making or locative prefix o-, linking time with the changing phases of
mother earth in the year.
    I believe that this is also true in Cree, which often mirrors Lakota in
such things although they are not etymologically related but not far from
each other geographically.  I remember that they use pipon ?winter? for
?years of age? as in nisosaap e piponeyaan ?when I was 12 years old?, but
I?m sure that they also use askiy ?earth? in some way for year, but cannot
remember how and have not got any Cree books to hand

Bruce
> 
> 
> 
> With spring, Chinookans, like flowers, emerged from underground to a new
> world. The root for "world, country, land, earth" indeed also has the meaning
> "year", pointing up the interdependence of recurring time with the recurrences
> of the seasonal round." (p. 21)
> 
> Apart from all this sounding very familiarily Chinese to me, here's my query:
> how's this in Siouan etymology? As for Dakota, the word for 'season/year'
> _omaka_ obviously comprises _maka_ [makxa'] 'earth' etc. plus the locative (or
> whatever) prefix _o-_.
> 
> Alfred
> 


Bruce Ingham
Professor of Arabic Dialect Studies
SOAS.  London University
Thornhaugh St.  Russell Square
London WC1H OXG.  England
****************************
Tel 020 7898 4336
****************************


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From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Tue Jan 11 14:37:25 2005
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:37:25 -0600
Subject: Wanikiya Tun -> omaka
In-Reply-To: <BE095BFF.26DE%bi1@soas.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JAN.2005.083725.0600.>

> I?m sure that the connection is as you say makha ?earth? and the
> abstract making or locative prefix o-, linking time with the changing
> phases of mother earth in the year.
> I believe that this is also true in Cree, which often mirrors Lakota
> in such things although they are not etymologically related but not
> far from each other geographically. I remember that they use pipon
> ?winter? for ?years of age? as in nisosaap e piponeyaan ?when I was 12
> years old?, but I?m sure that they also use askiy ?earth? in some way
> for year

That's really interesting, Bruce. In Wolfahrt & Ahenakew's Plains Cree
dictionary, I find aski:wi- 'be the earth, exist as world; be a year.'

Alan


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Tue Jan 11 18:32:18 2005
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:32:18 -0600
Subject: BAE in LexisNexis
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JAN.2005.123218.0600.>

Having had trouble tracking this down, despite Tom Leonard's help, I
thought I'd share this from LexisNexis:

>It appears that what you are looking for is under LN Congressional - U.S.
>Serial Set Digital Collection...Unfortunately, this cannot be found in any other LexisNexis resource.
>
Alan


From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Jan 11 19:20:04 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:20:04 -0600
Subject: FW: Native Languages of the Southeastern United States now
 available from the University of Nebraska Press
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JAN.2005.132004.0600.>

 
Just FYI...[RLR: ]   via Dave Costa. 


	The University of Nebraska Press is pleased to announce that
Native Languages of the Southeastern United States edited by Janine
Scancarelli and Heather K. Hardy is now available for purchase at the
following link: 
	
	http://www.nebraskapress.unl.edu/bookinfo/4814.html 
	
	or by calling 1-800-755-1105 
	
	Thank you for shopping with us! 
	
	Best regards, 
	
	Erica Corwin
	Direct Response Assistant
	University of Nebraska Press
	233 N 8th St.
	Lincoln  NE  68588-0255
	ecorwin1 at unl.edu
	phone: 402-472-9313
	fax: 402-472-0308
	www.nebraskapress.unl.edu 
	
	You are receiving this message because you made an electronic
request to be notified when this book became available. 
	

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From Rgraczyk at aol.com  Tue Jan 11 21:23:39 2005
From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Randolph Graczyk)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:23:39 EST
Subject: Wanikiya Tun -> omaka
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JAN.2005.162339.EST.>

In Crow the word for 'earth' awa' is also used for 'season'.

Randy
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From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Jan 11 23:20:05 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:20:05 -0600
Subject: 2005 Siouan-Caddoan Languages and Linguistics Conference.
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JAN.2005.172005.0600.>

I need to set the date for our conference in late May or early June as soon as
possible now so that we can move plans ahead.  We had talked about having the
meeting around the time of the Osage dances which occupy three weekends during
this period.  This would enable conference participants to attend one or more of
said dances if they wished.  Jimm Good Tracks made the excellent point that, if
we schedule our meeting the same weekend as any one of the Osage dances,
interested Osages would not be able to attend because of the conflict.  This
might well extend to Kaws, Quapaws and Poncas also.

Carolyn Quintero wrote:
> Pretty much we can count on Grayhorse dances being the first full weekend in
> June. (3-4-5).  Then the next week would be Hominy.  Skip a week, then the
> last week would be Pawhuska.   This is the usual pattern.

I will enquire about these dates and try to verify them during the next few
days.  If anyone knows for certain that this is the schedule, please let me
know.  If this is indeed the schedule, then we should think about the Friday,
Saturday and Sunday preceding the weekend of June 3-5, i.e., the last weekend in
May, OR we should wait until the weekend of June 17, the week between the last
two Osage dances.  Anyone have a preference?

Best wishes to everyone for the New Year!

Bob


From goodtracks at GBRonline.com  Wed Jan 12 04:00:57 2005
From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:00:57 -0600
Subject: 2005 Siouan-Caddoan Languages and Linguistics Conference.
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JAN.2005.220057.0600.>

Bob:  While Carolyn provided the usual agenda for the 3 communities, this is
not written in granite.  Gray Horse invariably is the first week end, but
afterwards, it can change.  One year, they skipped a week before Hominy, and
in another year, Hominy followed the very next weekend.  Even on one year,
Pawhuska preceeded the Hominy Iroshka.  Then there was the year when all 3
communities followed one another, with no dance on the forth -- the
hottest -- weekend.  As it is, they do not have their committee dinners
until late Spring which is when they set the dates.  If anyone says they'll
have "the" dates any time soon, are simply wishfull thinking.
Your best bet is for a week in May (27-29), although on the evening of the
29th, the PBPotawatomi have their Shinogah feast and dance in a specially
built Chakirutha (wigwam) built for the purpose at MiksiKwa (Jackson) home
place.  Then the War Mothers at GreyHorse hold their dance and feast.  In
fact, most of the Native communities have something on that week end for
commemoration of deceased relatives and veterans.  Better luck on July 4th
weekend, as there will be an opportunity for Osage attendance then, in lieu
of a large number of them attending the Pawnee Homecoming Powwow.
jgt
----- Original Message -----
From: "R. Rankin" <rankin at ku.edu>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 5:20 PM
Subject: 2005 Siouan-Caddoan Languages and Linguistics Conference.


>I need to set the date for our conference in late May or early June as soon
>as possible now so that we can move plans ahead.  We had talked about
>having the meeting around the time of the Osage dances which occupy three
>weekends during this period.   if we schedule our meeting the same weekend
>as any one of the Osage dances, interested Osages would not be able to
>attend because of the conflict.  This might well extend to Kaws, Quapaws
>and Poncas also.
>
> Carolyn Quintero wrote:
>> Pretty much we can count on Grayhorse dances being the first full weekend
>> in June. (3-4-5).  Then the next week would be Hominy.  Skip a week, then
>> the last week would be Pawhuska.   This is the usual pattern.
>
> I will enquire about these dates and try to verify them during the next
> few days.  If anyone knows for certain that this is the schedule, please
> let me know.  If this is indeed the schedule, then we should think about
> the Friday, Saturday and Sunday preceding the weekend of June 3-5, i.e.,
> the last weekend in May, OR we should wait until the weekend of June 17,
> the week between the last two Osage dances.  Anyone have a preference?
>
> Best wishes to everyone for the New Year!
>
> Bob
>


From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu  Wed Jan 12 13:38:04 2005
From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 07:38:04 -0600
Subject: 2005 Siouan-Caddoan Languages and Linguistics Conference.
Message-ID: <WED.12.JAN.2005.073804.0600.>

I don't know of any conflicts in late May/early June.


From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 12 14:27:45 2005
From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Q.)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:27:45 -0600
Subject: 2005 Siouan-Caddoan Languages and Linguistics Conference.
In-Reply-To: <007801c4f834$1662d460$29b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JAN.2005.082745.0600.>

I second what Jimm Goodtracks says about the possibility of variation in the
scheduling.

I was under the impression that the meeting at which dates are set in stone
will occur as early as late Feb.  But that's just an opinion I heard.

I think you will have to either give up coordination with Osage dance dates,
or wait until spring to set the date for our conference.

Maybe Jimm will agree that probably the best guess as to a non-dance weekend
would be June 18th weekend.  That's just a Guess.

Carolyn

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu]On Behalf Of R. Rankin
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 5:20 PM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: 2005 Siouan-Caddoan Languages and Linguistics Conference.

I need to set the date for our conference in late May or early June as soon
as
possible now so that we can move plans ahead.  We had talked about having
the
meeting around the time of the Osage dances which occupy three weekends
during
this period.  This would enable conference participants to attend one or
more of
said dances if they wished.  Jimm Good Tracks made the excellent point that,
if
we schedule our meeting the same weekend as any one of the Osage dances,
interested Osages would not be able to attend because of the conflict.  This
might well extend to Kaws, Quapaws and Poncas also.

Carolyn Quintero wrote:
> Pretty much we can count on Grayhorse dances being the first full weekend
in
> June. (3-4-5).  Then the next week would be Hominy.  Skip a week, then the
> last week would be Pawhuska.   This is the usual pattern.

I will enquire about these dates and try to verify them during the next few
days.  If anyone knows for certain that this is the schedule, please let me
know.  If this is indeed the schedule, then we should think about the
Friday,
Saturday and Sunday preceding the weekend of June 3-5, i.e., the last
weekend in
May, OR we should wait until the weekend of June 17, the week between the
last
two Osage dances.  Anyone have a preference?

Best wishes to everyone for the New Year!

Bob


From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU  Wed Jan 12 15:22:48 2005
From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:22:48 -0700
Subject: 2005 Siouan-Caddoan Languages and Linguistics Conference.
In-Reply-To: <007801c4f834$1662d460$29b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JAN.2005.082248.0700.>

I assume that the last weekend in May is Memorial Day weekend -- a time
when I don't want to be on the highway.  So I would vote for the mid-June
date, though chances are good I won't be able to be there this year
anyway.

	David

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, R. Rankin wrote:

> I need to set the date for our conference in late May or early June as soon as
> possible now so that we can move plans ahead.  We had talked about having the
> meeting around the time of the Osage dances which occupy three weekends during
> this period.  This would enable conference participants to attend one or more of
> said dances if they wished.  Jimm Good Tracks made the excellent point that, if
> we schedule our meeting the same weekend as any one of the Osage dances,
> interested Osages would not be able to attend because of the conflict.  This
> might well extend to Kaws, Quapaws and Poncas also.
>
> Carolyn Quintero wrote:
> > Pretty much we can count on Grayhorse dances being the first full weekend in
> > June. (3-4-5).  Then the next week would be Hominy.  Skip a week, then the
> > last week would be Pawhuska.   This is the usual pattern.
>
> I will enquire about these dates and try to verify them during the next few
> days.  If anyone knows for certain that this is the schedule, please let me
> know.  If this is indeed the schedule, then we should think about the Friday,
> Saturday and Sunday preceding the weekend of June 3-5, i.e., the last weekend in
> May, OR we should wait until the weekend of June 17, the week between the last
> two Osage dances.  Anyone have a preference?
>
> Best wishes to everyone for the New Year!
>
> Bob
>


From rankin at ku.edu  Wed Jan 12 23:01:46 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:01:46 -0600
Subject: 2005 Siouan-Caddoan Languages and Linguistics Conference.
Message-ID: <WED.12.JAN.2005.170146.0600.>

David's right, that's the Memorial Day weekend.

I don't mind going for June 15th, but last year, according to the Osage website
they held the dances on three successive weekends without a break.  Go figure.
I have a note from a member of the Red Corn family saying they won't set the
dates for some time yet, so I think we'd better go ahead.

If you have a problem with the weekend of June 17, 18 and 19th, please let me
know ASAP, as I would like to include everybody in the decision to the extent
possible.  I will let the Osages know our schedule so that they can make their
own informed decisions as they wish.

Bob


----- Original Message -----
From: "ROOD DAVID S" <rood at spot.Colorado.EDU>
> I assume that the last weekend in May is Memorial Day weekend -- a time
> when I don't want to be on the highway.


From jpboyle at uchicago.edu  Wed Jan 12 23:48:44 2005
From: jpboyle at uchicago.edu (John Boyle)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:48:44 -0600
Subject: 2005 Siouan-Caddoan Languages and Linguistics Conference.
In-Reply-To: <004401c4f8fb$996920e0$02b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JAN.2005.174844.0600.>

>David's right, that's the Memorial Day weekend.
>
>I don't mind going for June 15th, but last year, according to the
>Osage website they held the dances on three successive weekends
>without a break.  Go figure. I have a note from a member of the Red
>Corn family saying they won't set the dates for some time yet, so I
>think we'd better go ahead.
>
>If you have a problem with the weekend of June 17, 18 and 19th,
>please let me know ASAP, as I would like to include everybody in the
>decision to the extent possible.  I will let the Osages know our
>schedule so that they can make their own informed decisions as they
>wish.
>
>Bob
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "ROOD DAVID S" <rood at spot.Colorado.EDU>
>>I assume that the last weekend in May is Memorial Day weekend -- a time
>>when I don't want to be on the highway.

That weekend will work for me.

Thanks,

John Boyle


From are2 at buffalo.edu  Wed Jan 12 23:57:45 2005
From: are2 at buffalo.edu (are2 at buffalo.edu)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:57:45 -0500
Subject: 2005 Siouan-Caddoan Languages and Linguistics Conference.
In-Reply-To: <p05210601be0b6674f6f2@[68.78.26.231]>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JAN.2005.185745.0500.>

I won't be able to make any June dates, but I really wouldn't be able
to in late May either.
So, I wish everyone a wonderful conference!
-Ardis


Quoting John Boyle <jpboyle at uchicago.edu>:

> >David's right, that's the Memorial Day weekend.
> >
> >I don't mind going for June 15th, but last year, according to the
> >Osage website they held the dances on three successive weekends
> >without a break.  Go figure. I have a note from a member of the Red
>
> >Corn family saying they won't set the dates for some time yet, so I
>
> >think we'd better go ahead.
> >
> >If you have a problem with the weekend of June 17, 18 and 19th,
> >please let me know ASAP, as I would like to include everybody in the
>
> >decision to the extent possible.  I will let the Osages know our
> >schedule so that they can make their own informed decisions as they
>
> >wish.
> >
> >Bob
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message ----- From: "ROOD DAVID S"
> <rood at spot.Colorado.EDU>
> >>I assume that the last weekend in May is Memorial Day weekend -- a
> time
> >>when I don't want to be on the highway.
>
> That weekend will work for me.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John Boyle
>
>


From mary.marino at usask.ca  Thu Jan 13 06:27:08 2005
From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 00:27:08 -0600
Subject: 2005 Siouan-Caddoan Languages and Linguistics Conference.
In-Reply-To: <004401c4f8fb$996920e0$02b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JAN.2005.002708.0600.>

The weekend of 17/18/19 June sounds good to me.  Mary


If you have a problem with the weekend of June 17, 18 and 19th, please let
me know ASAP, as I would like to include everybody in the decision to the
extent possible.  I will let the Osages know our schedule so that they can
make their own informed decisions as they wish.

>Bob


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Jan 13 23:23:47 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 17:23:47 -0600
Subject: Finally -- the Quapaw sketch.
Message-ID: <THU.13.JAN.2005.172347.0600.>

I received my freebie copies of _Native Languages of the Southeastern United
States_ from the
Nebraska Press in the mail today and was relieved to see that they did a pretty
fair job of reproducing my Quapaw grammar sketch manuscript.  Thus far the only
errors I've caught are in the listing of the vowel inventory.  The problem there
seems to be due to the fact that Microsoft Word appears to randomly destroy
horizontal tabular formatting when identical files with identical templates are
displayed
on two different computers (I'm sure most of you have experience with THAT.)

So the Quapaw oral vowel "triangle" came out as a vowel "diamond" when they set
the type.  It should be:

i

e                     o

           a

. . . but it came out as:

           i

e                     o

          a

Likewise the nasal vowels lost tabular formatting.  They should display as:

iN

                    oN

         aN

. . . but they emerged as a vertical column:

iN

oN

aN

So if anyone buys or checks out this volume, you might want to make those minor
corrections.

At least the sketch is finally out, and a lot is now in print that I've wanted
to
get out for over 10 years.

Bob


From mary.marino at usask.ca  Fri Jan 14 03:31:50 2005
From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:31:50 -0600
Subject: Finally -- the Quapaw sketch.
In-Reply-To: <002b01c4f9c6$efa31620$13b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JAN.2005.213150.0600.>

Congratulations!  Mary

At 05:23 PM 1/13/2005, you wrote:
>I received my freebie copies of +AF8-Native Languages of the Southeastern
>United States+AF8- from the
>Nebraska Press in the mail today and was relieved to see that they did a
>pretty
>fair job of reproducing my Quapaw grammar sketch manuscript.  Thus far the
>only
>errors I've caught are in the listing of the vowel inventory.  The problem
>there
>seems to be due to the fact that Microsoft Word appears to randomly destroy
>horizontal tabular formatting when identical files with identical
>templates are displayed
>on two different computers (I'm sure most of you have experience with THAT.)
>
>So the Quapaw oral vowel +ACI-triangle+ACI- came out as a vowel
>+ACI-diamond+ACI- when they set
>the type.  It should be:
>
>i
>
>e                     o
>
>           a
>
>. . . but it came out as:
>
>           i
>
>e                     o
>
>          a
>
>Likewise the nasal vowels lost tabular formatting.  They should display as:
>
>iN
>
>                    oN
>
>         aN
>
>. . . but they emerged as a vertical column:
>
>iN
>
>oN
>
>aN
>
>So if anyone buys or checks out this volume, you might want to make those
>minor
>corrections.
>
>At least the sketch is finally out, and a lot is now in print that I've
>wanted to
>get out for over 10 years.
>
>Bob
>
>


From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Jan 16 22:38:17 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 16:38:17 -0600
Subject: A unicode Siouan, IPA, Cyrillic, Greek,
 west European font -- FREE.
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JAN.2005.163817.0600.>

If you are looking for a good font that contains all
the characters necessary to type any Siouan language
including the characters used by James Dorsey, I'd
suggest "Gentium" -- It was
recommended to me at the LSA meeting by several of the
people promoting
the use of Unicode fonts as a standard.  You can
download it free from
the following website:
http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&item_id=Gentium

It also has all the various accented characters used
across Europe, a very
complete inventory of IPA symbols plus Cyrillic and
Greek for all the Balkanists among us, and a huge
selection of overstriking diacritics for any characters
that might be wanting.  Using this as a standard would
circumvent the problem created by the fact that the
present Siouan sets don't seem to work with the Mac.
If your computer can handle Unicode, then this font
will provide just about everything you would possibly
need.

Bob


From kdshea at ku.edu  Tue Jan 18 04:05:27 2005
From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:05:27 -0600
Subject: 2005 Siouan-Caddoan Languages and Linguistics Conference.
Message-ID: <MON.17.JAN.2005.220527.0600.>

I will be teaching a summer school course at KU ("Structure of
Ponca"--anyone interested in enrolling?) the month of June.  Our department
put me down for a condensed period of 2 hours a day, 5 days a week in June,
rather than having me teach the course over the usual 2 months of June and
July of summer school, so I don't think that I can miss even one day of
classes.  I would prefer the weekend of May 20, 21, and 22.  The Poncas have
a lot going on on the following, Memorial Day weekend that would preclude
most Poncas from attending I think, and, as David points out, that's a bad
time to travel.  The first weekend in July would also be fine for me.  I
understand, though, that people attending the conference might want to look
on at some of the Osage dances in June (where, if I'm not wrong, most of the
singers and many of the dancers participating will be Poncas).  There's my
two-cents' worth, but I don't want everyone to have to plan around me, even
though  I would very much like to attend the SACC.

Kathy

----- Original Message -----
From: "R. Rankin" <rankin at ku.edu>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 5:01 PM
Subject: Re: 2005 Siouan-Caddoan Languages and Linguistics Conference.


> David's right, that's the Memorial Day weekend.
>
> I don't mind going for June 15th, but last year, according to the Osage
website
> they held the dances on three successive weekends without a break.  Go
figure.
> I have a note from a member of the Red Corn family saying they won't set
the
> dates for some time yet, so I think we'd better go ahead.
>
> If you have a problem with the weekend of June 17, 18 and 19th, please let
me
> know ASAP, as I would like to include everybody in the decision to the
extent
> possible.  I will let the Osages know our schedule so that they can make
their
> own informed decisions as they wish.
>
> Bob
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "ROOD DAVID S" <rood at spot.Colorado.EDU>
> > I assume that the last weekend in May is Memorial Day weekend -- a time
> > when I don't want to be on the highway.
>


From cstelfer at ucalgary.ca  Tue Jan 18 21:06:44 2005
From: cstelfer at ucalgary.ca (cstelfer at ucalgary.ca)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:06:44 -0700
Subject: Finally -- the Quapaw sketch.
In-Reply-To: <002b01c4f9c6$efa31620$13b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JAN.2005.140644.0700.>

> The problem there
> seems to be due to the fact that Microsoft Word appears to randomly
> destroy
> horizontal tabular formatting when identical files with identical
> templates are
> displayed
> on two different computers (I'm sure most of you have experience with
> THAT.)
>

Have you tried putting things like this in tables instead of using tabs?
Then you just make the table invisible, and it usually looks really good.
I agree that MS Word tabs need some serious work.  Unfortunately tables
don't work for my drawings involving segmental features, so I'm stuck with
tabs there.

Corey.


From cstelfer at ucalgary.ca  Tue Jan 18 21:01:17 2005
From: cstelfer at ucalgary.ca (cstelfer at ucalgary.ca)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:01:17 -0700
Subject: A unicode Siouan, IPA, Cyrillic, Greek,
 west European font -- FREE.
In-Reply-To: <003901c4fc1c$18157600$03b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JAN.2005.140117.0700.>

Hi,

   Gentium is good, but Doulos SIL is even better, or at least that's what
people around this department seem to concur.  Doulos SIL is made by
the same people as Gentium, only it's newer and they have improved some
things.  Here is the link to download it for free:

http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&item_id=DoulosSIL_download

Sorry it's so long.

Doulos SIL looks a lot more like Times New Roman, so you can easily write
your whole document in Doulos SIL and it will look more or less "normal".
I believe that Doulos SIL has all of the same characters as Gentium and
more, so finding the appropriate Siouan characters should be easy.  ONe
nice development in Doulos SIL is the combining accents, which
automatically format themselves.  This works well when you want to have an
accented nasal vowel and you use [~] to indicate nasality.  The combining
accent will automatically move above the tilde so that the two symbols do
not interfere with each other.  But you have to make sure you use the
"combining" accents to get this effect.

Doulos SIL is so useful that our phonology prof, Darin Howe, gets all of
his phonology students to download it to write their papers and
assignments.  The only real downside is that Doulos SIL makes the line
spacing slightly larger than it would be with Times New Roman, so there is
more space between lines than usual.

Hope this helps,

Corey.





> If you are looking for a good font that contains all
> the characters necessary to type any Siouan language
> including the characters used by James Dorsey, I'd
> suggest "Gentium" -- It was
> recommended to me at the LSA meeting by several of the
> people promoting
> the use of Unicode fonts as a standard.  You can
> download it free from
> the following website:
> http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&item_id=Gentium
>
> It also has all the various accented characters used
> across Europe, a very
> complete inventory of IPA symbols plus Cyrillic and
> Greek for all the Balkanists among us, and a huge
> selection of overstriking diacritics for any characters
> that might be wanting.  Using this as a standard would
> circumvent the problem created by the fact that the
> present Siouan sets don't seem to work with the Mac.
> If your computer can handle Unicode, then this font
> will provide just about everything you would possibly
> need.
>
> Bob
>
>


From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Jan 18 23:09:53 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:09:53 -0600
Subject: unicode Siouan
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JAN.2005.170953.0600.>

>   Gentium is good, but Doulos SIL is even better, or
> at least that's what
> people around this department seem to concur.

> The only real downside is that Doulos SIL makes the
> line
> spacing slightly larger than it would be with Times
> New Roman, so there is
> more space between lines than usual.

John Koontz's Siouan Doulos is based on the SIL Doulos
font and is very good.  The only problem has been the
fact that MACs seem to choke on it.  I'll have a look
at the latest version of SIL Doulos.  Actually Times
itself has nearly everything you'd want, but it lacks a
unitary character for nasal O (O with 'ogonek' beneath
it).

My own experience with the spacing problem you mention
is that the Doulos letters are actually larger than the
Times New Roman letters in the same pitch.  I have
found that it comes out nearly perfect if you type your
TNR material in 12 and your Doulos material in the same
document in 11. This brings the size and spacing into
line.  The latest version of Gentium doesn't seem to
have this problem, although it's still not identical
with the TNR font.  If you type "The quick brown fox
jumped over the lazy dog's back." in all three fonts,
you see that Gentium is fractionally longer, and SIL
Doulos is fractionally bigger and longer.  At least for
the versions I have.

Bob


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Wed Jan 19 00:29:17 2005
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:29:17 -0600
Subject: unicode Siouan
In-Reply-To: <005801c4fdb2$d2f40530$15b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JAN.2005.182917.0600.>

R. Rankin wrote:

> Times itself has nearly everything you'd want, but it lacks a unitary
> character for nasal O (O with 'ogonek' beneath it).

How about just using o-tilde?

Alan


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Jan 19 00:28:54 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:28:54 -0700
Subject: unicode Siouan
In-Reply-To: <005801c4fdb2$d2f40530$15b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JAN.2005.172854.0700.>

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, R. Rankin wrote:
> John Koontz's Siouan Doulos is based on the SIL Doulos font and is very
> good.

To clarify matters, what I somewhat ambitiously called Standard Siouan is
not really a type face, but a character set - a specified list of
character assignments to the 256 cells in an 8-bit character scheme.
Standard Siouan (abbreviated SS, I'm afraid) provides the characters
needed to represent typical modern Siouanist practice including scholarly
usage for journal publication, the Colorado Lakota Project, Ken Miner's
Winnebago alphabet, etc.  I supplemented this with three additional sets
to provide the characters used historically by (1) Dakotanists (mainly
Riggs and Buechel) and (2) the BAE, plus (3) a small supplementary group
of characters peculiar to modern phonetic transcriptions of Siouan
languages.  So there are four character sets, though the main one used is
the SS set.

I used SIL's font tools to produce renderings of these sets in three type
faces, which are (a) Doulos (SIL's proportional serif face), (b) Sophia
(SIL's proportional sans-serif face), and (c) Manuscript (SIL's monospaced
serif face).  SIL uses its own faces to avoid having to license industry
standards like Times, Helvetica, and Courier; or Dutch, Swiss, and ???;
or New Times, Arial, and New Courier (depending on your vendor).  Each of
the three SIL faces includes a standard upright version, an oblique or
Italic version, and bold versions of each of these.  So, with 3 faces and
4 variants of each face, there 12 variants for each of the 4 character
sets, or 48 fonts in all, one of which is Standard Siouan Doulos upright.

Well, actually, there are 60 fonts.  Because Doulos et al. aren't Times et
al. they don't actually match Times et al. in things like height,
baseline, descender length, etc.  Realizing this would be awkward I also
supply the standard ANSI (ISO something or Windows) character set in each
of the faces and variants.  As close to that as the SIL tools allow,
anyway.  This way, as long as you're willing to use Doulos, Sophia, or
Manuscript as a body text, you can get a body text that matches any Siouan
language materials embedded in it.  In fact, unless you need to use some
of the usual Windows "upper range" (128-255)  characters for something,
you can usually just use the Standard Siouan set in the body, too.  If you
don't, things can look fairly odd.

There are several problems with using the Standard Siouan et al. character
sets.  One is that these sets are only used - at the moment - by
Siouanists and you would be better off in the long run using a Unicode
scheme.  Just few years ago that was a pipe dream, but we are almost - not
quite - at the point where (a) you can get a complete Unicode-font in
every environment where you'd want it, in some face or other, and (b) that
environment supports entering and rendering things like vowel-ogonek-acute
for all vowels and not just most of them.

The Windows extended character sets are also a pretty good match for
Siouan now, and they may map to 16-bit Unicode (or some encoding of it)
now, too.  However, you will find problems with things like some
vowel-ogonek-acute combinations, all vowel-ogonek-grave (etc.)
combinations, some raised letters (as letters in their own right and not
superscripted regular letters), some consonant-hacek combinations
(j-hacek), and maybe some of the tailed-n letters (enye, eng?).  Oh yes,
also glottal stop.  This list may not be precisely correct, as I tend to
forget the details from one time to another, but I think it serves as a
quick list of the potential problem points you need to look at before
trying to use the extended Windows set on short notice.  If you don't need
these characters you have nothing to worry about.

Apart from the disadvantage of using the non-standard Standard Siouan
character set, there is also, of course, a disadvantage to using Doulos et
al. as faces. This disadvantage applies even with SIL's Unicode version of
Doulos.  The issue is that a publisher might well insist of Times or some
other face or set of faces to the exclusion of Doulos.  This is comparable
to the problem that Mathematicians encounter using Knuth's Computer Modern
faces with TeX.  American publishers don't like modern faces.  They like
ancient or intermediate faces (like Times), and they tend to want to pick
the fonts themselves, so they may also dislike home-brewed ancient faces
like Doulos, etc. - anything other than their usual choice.

Note:  A modern face - I think Garamond is a good example - has a strong
contrast between thick and thin strokes.  Ancient faces like Times use
about the same weight for all strokes.

The solution with TeX is that there are vendors that sell Times versions
of the TeX character set, e.g., the MathTimes set.  What Siouanists need
is Unicode tools that handle rendering of all the simple and compound
characters that Siouanists need, and do it in standard faces, if not all
faces.

We haven't achieved either one, I think, but I understand that we are
getting close to the full Siouanist character set.

I think at least one Mac adaptation of my fonts succeeded for a student of
Dick Carter, but I have never tried to keep track of the Mac adaptations
or how they were achieved, so I can't help there.


From rankin at ku.edu  Wed Jan 19 20:15:04 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:15:04 -0600
Subject: unicode Siouan
Message-ID: <WED.19.JAN.2005.141504.0600.>

> There are several problems with using the Standard
> Siouan et al. character
> sets.  One is that these sets are only used - at the
> moment - by
> Siouanists and you would be better off in the long
> run using a Unicode
> scheme.

Yes, ordinarily I've just used SSDoulos for entire
documents with a size 11 typeface, and that has worked
well and matched Times very closely.  This past
semester however I had two paper deadlines for
different publications.  One wanted strictly Courier
New and the other Times New Roman.  They were rather
inflexible about it, and I'm afraid this is going to be
happening more and more.  Happily, I discovered that
the newer versions of these two fonts that came with my
XP machine had all the vowels with macrons and breves
and other symbols necessary to reproduce Swanton's BAE
Ofo transcription and my phonemicization of it.  The
only exceptions were the /O-ogonek/, the /J-hacek/ and
the /glottal stop/.  Using the "equation" feature of
Word, I got the ogonek and hacek to overstrike the
proper segments and I ended up simply reverting to /?/
for the glottal.  Still, it's nice to have all the
additional charx that Gentium or SILDoulos provide.  I
can't really say that I prefer one or the other of
those.  The latest versions are both quite nice.  Now
if only publishers will be a little more understanding
. . . .

> The Windows extended character sets are also a pretty
> good match for
> Siouan now, and they may map to 16-bit Unicode (or
> some encoding of it)
> now, too.

That's what I found with Times, but, as you say . . .
> However, you will find problems with things like some
> vowel-ogonek-acute combinations, all
> vowel-ogonek-grave (etc.)
> combinations, some raised letters (as letters in
> their own right and not
> superscripted regular letters), some consonant-hacek
> combinations
> (j-hacek), and maybe some of the tailed-n letters
> (enye, eng?).  Oh yes,
> also glottal stop.

In Times (TNR) you can get the various accents to
overstrike other charx and compose what you need.  In
Courier, however, they will not overstrike, at least on
my machine, in Word.  Glottal stop, of course, always
gets printed as "zero", so you have to go with question
mark or apostrophe.

> We haven't achieved either one, I think, but I
> understand that we are
> getting close to the full Siouanist character set.

We're "there", I think, in the Unicode versions of
Gentium and SILDoulos, as well as the very
klunky-looking Titus Cyberbit Basic, but not quite so
in the fonts the publishers most commonly ask for.

> I think at least one Mac adaptation of my fonts
> succeeded for a student of
> Dick Carter, but I have never tried to keep track of
> the Mac adaptations
> or how they were achieved, so I can't help there.

The SIL website has separate font downloads for PC's
and Mac's, so maybe they're still a little different
(or maybe it's the download protocols that differ).

The solution to the O-ogonek problem that involves
using O-tilde instead would get into diacritic
stacking.  The unicode fonts will do this but it looks
poor.  Keeping nasalization beneath and accent on top
of vowels is the better solution.  But then I quite
generally disapprove of using IPA in phonological
transcription.  It is designed for purely phonetic
purposes, has a lot of bizarre-looking symbols, can't
really provide for phonological affricates and has a
host of other problems.  For the past few years it's
been pushed really hard by the unemployed phoneticians
who lost their own departments in many European
universities and came flocking en-masse into
Linguistics, but even though they look upon IPA as "the
metric system of transcription", using the older and
better-established Americanist symbol set just makes
more sense phonologically.  I like the mnemonic of
having common diacritics for particular features --
i.e., s,z,c,j with the hacek make more sense to
students than using the klunky S, 3, tS, d3, etc.  But
enough of the soapbox.

Bob


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Wed Jan 19 20:49:38 2005
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:49:38 -0600
Subject: unicode Siouan
In-Reply-To: <000f01c4fe63$912cb460$14b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JAN.2005.144938.0600.>

Have a look at the MS Arial Unicode font. It's big, but that's because
it has almost everything but the kitchen sink (IPA, Arabic, Hangul,
etc). It may now come with Windows, though I originally got it as a free
download.

Alan


From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 19 21:23:02 2005
From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:23:02 -0800
Subject: Male vs. female speech
Message-ID: <WED.19.JAN.2005.132302.0800.>

Hi all,

As I've been perusing the Dorsey/Swanton Biloxi dictionary and texts, I've been noticing many instances of male vs. female speech patterns.  The one simple example I can think of at the moment is the optional declarative particle na for a male speaker, and ni for a female speaker (and, if I remember correctly, the question particle wo for male, wa for female).  It seems to be most prominent in commands, and there appear to be different command forms of verbs for male to male, male to female or child, female to female, female to male, etc.

I'm wondering if this is a common feature of all Siouan languages, or is Taneks different in this respect.

Dave

		
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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Jan 19 22:11:01 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:11:01 -0700
Subject: unicode Siouan
In-Reply-To: <000f01c4fe63$912cb460$14b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JAN.2005.151101.0700.>

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005, R. Rankin wrote:
> Yes, ordinarily I've just used SSDoulos for entire
> documents with a size 11 typeface, and that has worked
> well and matched Times very closely.

In principle it would only be necessary to match Times in other papers
because of the availability of Doulos (and Sophia, etc.) in the "Windows
ANSI" set.  Or if you needed something from the extended Times set.  But
in practice, it's now often like Bob says - the publishers insist on
a particular face and don't want a mix of that face and some other face.
They are also often rather reluctant to use any non-standard font
technology even if they don't care what the face is.

One wrinkle that may help someone:  the essence of the Standard Siouan,
etc., sets is the SIL character set definition.  This definition should
work with almost any SIL template font (up to a point).  If you had a full
SIL template font in the Times face you could generate a Standard Siouan
Times font from the Standard Siouan character set definition as easily as
an SS Doulos font.  SIL actually used to license Times, Helvetica, etc.,
for the pre-TrueType version of its font generator, or rather it licensed
the Bitstream knockoffs Dutch, Swiss, etc.  When SIL decided to save money
by using its own fonts they called them Doulos and Sophia - terms of
Christian doctrinal relevance - so they could use the same abbreviations.

> In Times (TNR) you can get the various accents to overstrike other charx
> and compose what you need.  In Courier, however, they will not
> overstrike, at least on my machine, in Word.

Weird.  The hard part is overstriking proportional fonts.  Monospaced is
much easier!  Generating fonts with the SIL software entails
"precomposing" the overstrikes and assigning them to particular numbers
0-255, using a language that amounts to

take x, (overprint y positioning it at q)* and stick it in i

My only claims to fame here are picking the right characters for
Siouanists, carefully defining q depending on f, the face, and developing
a nicer notation for the commands (not the form above) and a tool to
convert them into what SIL expects.

> > We haven't achieved either one, I think, but I understand that we are
> > getting close to the full Siouanist character set.
>
> We're "there", I think, in the Unicode versions of Gentium and
> SILDoulos, ...

I meant to include supporting Unicode in standard faces in "there."

Also, strictly speaking I think there are some base + diacritic
combinations in the vowel + ogonek + acute range and maybe some other
combinations (j-hacek?) that Unicode doesn't precompose, so that you need
one of the implementations of Unicode that understands "standard" base
character + diacritic sequences, which most do not.  It doesn't quite
count if the overprinting requires the extra "non-Unicode" smarts of an
application like a word processor or even an operating system, because
then you can't export the text to something else like a Web page or
another operating system.  It's like the Word Perfect font extensions all
over again.  Works great, as long as you live inside WordPerfect.

> The SIL website has separate font downloads for PC's
> and Mac's, so maybe they're still a little different
> (or maybe it's the download protocols that differ).

Mac files have a different structure.  There are two "forks"  and, as I
recall, everything in a Windows TrueType font goes in one of these forks
called the data fork.  But you need a tool that picks up a Windows file
and restructures it as a Mac file.  Maybe not all the available tools
handle .TTF files correctly?

> The solution to the O-ogonek problem that involves
> using O-tilde instead would get into diacritic
> stacking.

Exactly.  Americanists have to deal with the combination of nasalization
and pitch accent fairly often, and they have settled on the Polish ogonek
- nasal hook - as a way of getting the accent mark out the nasalization
mark's hair.  This is done in Siouan, Atha[b]ascan, Tanoan, etc.  The only
use of tilde for nasalization in Siouan that I recall was the Wisconsin
Native Languages Project's Winnebago vocabulary, the predecessor of the
Miner Field Lexicon.

Siouanists do have a third alternative in the form of raised n ~ engma ~
eta, etc., after the vowel.  In the old days - cf. Dorsey 1890 - they
wrote the accent after this, but now it sits on the vowel.  I think the
old way was a printer's expedient.  The old GPO type must not have handled
overprints?

> But then I quite generally disapprove of using IPA in phonological
> transcription.  It is designed for purely phonetic purposes,

I remember an ardent IPAer arguing to the contrary on this point on the
Linguist List years ago and citing chapter and verse in the IPA documents,
but this is certainly the American assessment of what IPA was intended
for, perhaps arising from IPA originating before phonology was widely seen
as separate from phonetics?  Actually, many disciplines have standardized
non-IPA standards, e.g., English transcription (in America), Slavists,
Indologists, Semiticists, etc.  I agree that IPA is clunky and funny
looking and I much prefer almost anything else, though I may be prejudiced
just a bit.


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Wed Jan 19 22:38:43 2005
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:38:43 -0600
Subject: Male vs. female speech
In-Reply-To: <20050119212302.94433.qmail@web53802.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JAN.2005.163843.0600.>

Hi Dave,

> As I've been perusing the Dorsey/Swanton Biloxi dictionary and texts,
I've been noticing many instances of male vs. female speech patterns.  The
one simple example I can think of at the moment is the optional declarative
particle na for a male speaker, and ni for a female speaker (and, if I
remember correctly, the question particle wo for male, wa for female).  It
seems to be most prominent in commands, and there appear to be different
command forms of verbs for male to male, male to female or child, female to
female, female to male, etc.

> I'm wondering if this is a common feature of all Siouan languages, or is
Taneks different in this respect.

I think it's pretty common.  I've also noticed that it seems
to be most prominent in commands, next most prominent in
statements or emphatics, less prominent in questions.

In OP, the male command particle is ga! and the female
command particle is a!; the 19th century emphatic,
previously statement, marker was ha for men and he
for women; now basically ho for men only in Omaha,
with the vocative also now changed to -ho for men
only, where in the 19th century it was -ha for both
sexes.

In Lakhota, I was taught that the strong male command
particle is yo! and the female command particle is ye!;
but if the command is more polite and diffident, then
the male form is ye! and the female form is na!  The
statement form for men is yelo', and for women is kis^to'.
For questions, both use he?, unless the man is standing
on his manly authority, in which case he asks huwo'?

I recall that the forms were substantially different
in Santee, but can't recall what they were.

In Iowa-Oto-Missouria, I believe the statement form
is ke for men and ki for women, but I don't recall
the full system.

This is an interesting sociolinguistic question.  I
wonder how widespread this sort of thing is outside
of Siouan?

Rory


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Jan 19 22:30:29 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:30:29 -0700
Subject: Male vs. female speech
In-Reply-To: <20050119212302.94433.qmail@web53802.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JAN.2005.153029.0700.>

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005, David Kaufman wrote:
> As I've been perusing the Dorsey/Swanton Biloxi dictionary and texts,
> I've been noticing many instances of male vs. female speech patterns.
> The one simple example I can think of at the moment is the optional
> declarative particle na for a male speaker, and ni for a female speaker

This is consistent with a slight Siouan tendency to final a in male
particles and e in female particles, though o (au) vs. a also occurs.

> (and, if I remember correctly, the question particle wo for male, wa for
> female).  It seems to be most prominent in commands, and there appear to
> be different command forms of verbs for male to male, male to female or
> child, female to female, female to male, etc.

I'd say this is true most places where "sex" of speaker particles occur:
prominent with imperative, common with declarative, trailing off into less
frequent categories.

I think I remember noticing that the female to male imperative was
homophonous with the optative.

> I'm wondering if this is a common feature of all Siouan languages, or is
> Taneks different in this respect.

This pattern occurs in Mississippi Valley except for Winnebago, where as
far as I can recall it is absent, even though the very similar Ioway-Otoe
has it.  The patterns in Dakotan and Dhegiha are fairly similar, though
different in detail.  Ioway-Otoe is a bit different.  Systems also occur
in Biloxi and I think Tutelo.   I can't remember for sure for Tutelo, Ofo,
and Crow and Hidatsa.

Mandan uses a similar system to mark sex of addressee.

I recommend acquiring a set of non-Biloxi grammars for comparison with
Biloxi, including Boas & Deloria "Teton," Lipkind "Winnebago," Whitman
"Ioway-Otoe," Kennard "Mandan," and maybe the Swanton & Boas "Siouan" and
Boas "Ponca."  More recent Dakota grammars like Rood & Taylor and Ingham
are also great references, and at this point I think Bob's Quapaw sketch
is going to be much more useful than Boas's Ponca one.  For Hidatsa at the
moment you're pretty much stuck with Matthews.  For Crow Randy's grammar
is almost out and much better than Lowie.  Robinett's Hidatsa grammar and
Kashcube's Crow grammar are pretty easy to track down, but take a bit of
work to understand.  Stripped of the formalism there's not a lot there,
though it's more detailed on morphology than Matthews or Lowie.

In the absence of a comprehensive set of reference grammars for Siouan
it's helpful to have a full set of brief documents available for the
various languages.  If you can't find something in one, go next door.  If
it occurs it's bound to be similar enough for the discussion to be
helpful.


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Jan 20 18:23:31 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:23:31 -0600
Subject: unicode Siouan
Message-ID: <THU.20.JAN.2005.122331.0600.>

> I remember an ardent IPAer arguing to the contrary on this point on
the Linguist List years ago and citing chapter and verse in the IPA
documents, but this is certainly the American assessment of what IPA was
intended for, perhaps arising from IPA originating before phonology was
widely seen as separate from phonetics?

Yeah, IPAers are nothing if not "ardent".  Actually, I think if you read
the fine print in some of the IPA footnotes they make provision for
things like hacek and maybe ogonek as alternatives, etc.  But you never
see them actually use those symbol sets, and I suspect they were put
there as sop for central Europeans who had them in their alphabets
already.  And phonology seems to be regressing nowadays anyway.

Having spent several posts talking about newer unicode fonts, I should
express all of our gratitude to John for making life with truetype fonts
so much easier for us all over the past decade or so.  Without SSDoulos
I'd probably still be writing in diacritics by hand a lot of the time!

Bob


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Jan 20 18:31:57 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:31:57 -0600
Subject: Male vs. female speech
Message-ID: <THU.20.JAN.2005.123157.0600.>

Sara Trechter has a paper she did comparing the gender-sensitive modals
in the various Siouan languages.  I don't remember if she published it
or not.  The Mississippi Valley languages all mark gender of speaker
(except Winnebago/Hocank), but Mandan and Biloxi mark gender of
addressee (and Biloxi, the speaker as well), and at least one of the
particles was cognate between MA and BI.  There is a good deal of
cognacy within Mississippi Valley as I recall.  The Biloxi data deserve
a lot more attention.  Most of us have only looked at the tabular data
in Dorsey & Swanton.  The texts contain a lot on usage as well.  I can't
recall how much Einaudi might have said about them.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Koontz John E
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 4:30 PM
To: Siouan List
Subject: Re: Male vs. female speech


On Wed, 19 Jan 2005, David Kaufman wrote:
> As I've been perusing the Dorsey/Swanton Biloxi dictionary and texts,
> I've been noticing many instances of male vs. female speech patterns.
> The one simple example I can think of at the moment is the optional
> declarative particle na for a male speaker, and ni for a female
> speaker

This is consistent with a slight Siouan tendency to final a in male
particles and e in female particles, though o (au) vs. a also occurs.

> (and, if I remember correctly, the question particle wo for male, wa
> for female).  It seems to be most prominent in commands, and there
> appear to be different command forms of verbs for male to male, male
> to female or child, female to female, female to male, etc.

I'd say this is true most places where "sex" of speaker particles occur:
prominent with imperative, common with declarative, trailing off into
less frequent categories.

I think I remember noticing that the female to male imperative was
homophonous with the optative.

> I'm wondering if this is a common feature of all Siouan languages, or
> is Taneks different in this respect.

This pattern occurs in Mississippi Valley except for Winnebago, where as
far as I can recall it is absent, even though the very similar
Ioway-Otoe has it.  The patterns in Dakotan and Dhegiha are fairly
similar, though different in detail.  Ioway-Otoe is a bit different.
Systems also occur
in Biloxi and I think Tutelo.   I can't remember for sure for Tutelo,
Ofo,
and Crow and Hidatsa.

Mandan uses a similar system to mark sex of addressee.

I recommend acquiring a set of non-Biloxi grammars for comparison with
Biloxi, including Boas & Deloria "Teton," Lipkind "Winnebago," Whitman
"Ioway-Otoe," Kennard "Mandan," and maybe the Swanton & Boas "Siouan"
and Boas "Ponca."  More recent Dakota grammars like Rood & Taylor and
Ingham are also great references, and at this point I think Bob's Quapaw
sketch is going to be much more useful than Boas's Ponca one.  For
Hidatsa at the moment you're pretty much stuck with Matthews.  For Crow
Randy's grammar is almost out and much better than Lowie.  Robinett's
Hidatsa grammar and Kashcube's Crow grammar are pretty easy to track
down, but take a bit of work to understand.  Stripped of the formalism
there's not a lot there, though it's more detailed on morphology than
Matthews or Lowie.

In the absence of a comprehensive set of reference grammars for Siouan
it's helpful to have a full set of brief documents available for the
various languages.  If you can't find something in one, go next door.
If it occurs it's bound to be similar enough for the discussion to be
helpful.


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Jan 20 18:49:13 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:49:13 -0600
Subject: unicode Siouan
Message-ID: <THU.20.JAN.2005.124913.0600.>

Will do.  The TITUS Cyberbit basic had all those strange alphabets
(Georgian, Armenian, etc.) but their symbols were awful-looking.  It
would be nice to have everything in Ariel.    Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Alan H. Hartley
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:50 PM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: Re: unicode Siouan


Have a look at the MS Arial Unicode font. It's big, but that's because
it has almost everything but the kitchen sink (IPA, Arabic, Hangul,
etc). It may now come with Windows, though I originally got it as a free

download.

Alan


From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 20 20:15:43 2005
From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:15:43 -0800
Subject: Male vs. female speech
In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164E87@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JAN.2005.121543.0800.>

-- Sara Trechter has a paper she did comparing the gender-sensitive modals
in the various Siouan languages. -- Hmmm.  It'd be interesting to try and get a copy somehow, if it's published.

-- The Biloxi data deserve a lot more attention. Most of us have only looked at the tabular data
in Dorsey & Swanton. The texts contain a lot on usage as well. I can't recall how much Einaudi might have said about them. --  While I don't have time right at the moment to do a thorough investigation of Einaudi's dissertation (which I have), I can say that from my recent perusal it appears she only mentions it in passing in a few places, especially the particles.  I don't see much mention about how the gender issue affects verbs.

Looks like I have my work cut out for me!  : )

Dave


"Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:
Sara Trechter has a paper she did comparing the gender-sensitive modals
in the various Siouan languages. I don't remember if she published it
or not. The Mississippi Valley languages all mark gender of speaker
(except Winnebago/Hocank), but Mandan and Biloxi mark gender of
addressee (and Biloxi, the speaker as well), and at least one of the
particles was cognate between MA and BI. There is a good deal of
cognacy within Mississippi Valley as I recall. The Biloxi data deserve
a lot more attention. Most of us have only looked at the tabular data
in Dorsey & Swanton. The texts contain a lot on usage as well. I can't
recall how much Einaudi might have said about them.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Koontz John E
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 4:30 PM
To: Siouan List
Subject: Re: Male vs. female speech


On Wed, 19 Jan 2005, David Kaufman wrote:
> As I've been perusing the Dorsey/Swanton Biloxi dictionary and texts,
> I've been noticing many instances of male vs. female speech patterns.
> The one simple example I can think of at the moment is the optional
> declarative particle na for a male speaker, and ni for a female
> speaker

This is consistent with a slight Siouan tendency to final a in male
particles and e in female particles, though o (au) vs. a also occurs.

> (and, if I remember correctly, the question particle wo for male, wa
> for female). It seems to be most prominent in commands, and there
> appear to be different command forms of verbs for male to male, male
> to female or child, female to female, female to male, etc.

I'd say this is true most places where "sex" of speaker particles occur:
prominent with imperative, common with declarative, trailing off into
less frequent categories.

I think I remember noticing that the female to male imperative was
homophonous with the optative.

> I'm wondering if this is a common feature of all Siouan languages, or
> is Taneks different in this respect.

This pattern occurs in Mississippi Valley except for Winnebago, where as
far as I can recall it is absent, even though the very similar
Ioway-Otoe has it. The patterns in Dakotan and Dhegiha are fairly
similar, though different in detail. Ioway-Otoe is a bit different.
Systems also occur
in Biloxi and I think Tutelo. I can't remember for sure for Tutelo,
Ofo,
and Crow and Hidatsa.

Mandan uses a similar system to mark sex of addressee.

I recommend acquiring a set of non-Biloxi grammars for comparison with
Biloxi, including Boas & Deloria "Teton," Lipkind "Winnebago," Whitman
"Ioway-Otoe," Kennard "Mandan," and maybe the Swanton & Boas "Siouan"
and Boas "Ponca." More recent Dakota grammars like Rood & Taylor and
Ingham are also great references, and at this point I think Bob's Quapaw
sketch is going to be much more useful than Boas's Ponca one. For
Hidatsa at the moment you're pretty much stuck with Matthews. For Crow
Randy's grammar is almost out and much better than Lowie. Robinett's
Hidatsa grammar and Kashcube's Crow grammar are pretty easy to track
down, but take a bit of work to understand. Stripped of the formalism
there's not a lot there, though it's more detailed on morphology than
Matthews or Lowie.

In the absence of a comprehensive set of reference grammars for Siouan
it's helpful to have a full set of brief documents available for the
various languages. If you can't find something in one, go next door.
If it occurs it's bound to be similar enough for the discussion to be
helpful.



		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
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From STrechter at csuchico.edu  Thu Jan 20 20:41:21 2005
From: STrechter at csuchico.edu (Trechter, Sara)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:41:21 -0800
Subject: Male vs. female speech
Message-ID: <THU.20.JAN.2005.124121.0800.>

I haven't notice that gender particles as evidentials affect the use of verbs at all although they do tend to occur with certain meanings more than others.  Verbs of presence or arrival often will receive an assertion particle if such information is a change of scene or new information, and therefore have a kind of deictic effect, locating the speaker with the respect to the utterance, or so I argues in my dissertation on Lakhota gender. This seems to be the case with the OP texts I've looked at as well.   
 
Some languages like Newari and a bunch in South America (whose names aren't at the tip of my fingers) have an intricate system matching the use of specific evidentials, verb meanings, and person, but I haven't found anything like this is Lakhota.  Lakhota seems to have a more fully developed system of gendered illocutionary/affective force particles than the other Mississippi Valley languages, but the basic commands and assertion particles are probably reconstructible within the Mississippi Valley branch.  If you send me your address, I'll send you the unpublished paper, where I go into the details. 
 
BTW, Haas' (1944) article in Language mentions the Biloxi particles with brief examples.  I've also noticed that a few of the particles that Dorsy and Swanton list in their introduction don't ever seem to occur in the texts.  
 
best, sara    
 
Dr. Sara Trechter, Associate Professor
Linguistics Program and English Department
CSU, Chico
Chico, CA 95926
(530) 898-4450 (fax)
(530) 898-5447 (office)
 


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Jan 20 21:08:08 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:08:08 -0600
Subject: Male vs. female speech
Message-ID: <THU.20.JAN.2005.150808.0600.>

 >  I haven't notice that gender particles as evidentials affect the use
of verbs at all although they do tend to occur with certain meanings
more than others.  Verbs of presence or arrival often will receive an
assertion particle if such information is a change of scene or new
information, and therefore have a kind of deictic effect, locating the
speaker with the respect to the utterance, or so I argues in my
dissertation on Lakhota gender. This seems to be the case with the OP
texts I've looked at as well.   

	>  Some languages like Newari and a bunch in South America
(whose names aren't at the tip of my fingers) have an intricate system
matching the use of specific evidentials, verb meanings, and person, but
I haven't found anything like this is Lakhota.   
	 
	RLR -- I think Aleksandra Aikhenvald probably has a number of
good papers on evidentials, especially in South America.  She worked in
the Vaupes region of Amazonia in Brazil and has written on evidentials.
She doesn't do any Siouan however.
	 
	>  Lakhota seems to have a more fully developed system of
gendered illocutionary/affective force particles than the other
Mississippi Valley languages,  
	 
	RLR -- This certainly seems to be true, but I've always wondered
if part of it wasn't that most of us arrived on the scene too late to
find examples of their full usage?  Bob
	 
	 

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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu Jan 20 21:34:12 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 14:34:12 -0700
Subject: Male vs. female speech
In-Reply-To: <20050120201543.17003.qmail@web53806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JAN.2005.143412.0700.>

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005, David Kaufman wrote:
> -- Sara Trechter has a paper she did comparing the gender-sensitive
> modals in the various Siouan languages. -- Hmmm.  It'd be interesting to
> try and get a copy somehow, if it's published.

I couldn't find a reference to the survey, but there is, of course, Sara's
specific work on Lakota gender markers.  Of course, in view of her
findings one is tempted to say "gender" markers, just to show there's more
to it, but I'll leave that to her.

At John Boyle's bibliography site:
http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/siouan_language.html

> Trechter, S. (1995). The pragmatic functions of gender deixis in
> Lakhota.  Lawarence, University of Kansas: 213.

This is Sara's dissertation, cf. the SSILA site dissertation list:
http://linguistics.buffalo.edu/ssila/dissertations/inddiss/d413.htm

> Trechter, Sara Ph.D., U. of Kansas, 1995. The Pragmatic Functions of
> Gender Deixis in Lakhota. 213 pp. [T. investigates the ways in which
> Lakhota clitics indicate the gender of the speaker, through an
> examination of folktales, autobiographical material, song texts, and
> informal conversations. In the first half of her dissertation she
> provides a general description of the function, use, and interpretation
> of the clitics. In the second half, she reexamines the concept of
> categorical gender (men display one usage and women another) in Native
> American languages and finds it invalid.  Individual, contextual use,
> however, reveals that gendered speech is partially a function of affect,
> stances, and genre that are considered socially appropriate to the
> sexes. Pragmatic constructs and ideology reflect and reinforce the
> concept of categorical gender in Lakhota, but at the same time they
> allow for individuation and change in the system. DAI 56(11):4384-A]
> [Order # DA-9609525] 4-96

A reference to a published version:
http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~jmw22/EofCsyll.html

> Trechter, Sarah 1999. Contextualizing the Exotic Few: Gender Dichotomies
> in Lakhota. In Reinventing Identities: The Gendered Self in Discourse.
> M.  Bucholtz, A.C. Liang, and L.A. Sutton, eds. Pp. 101-119. New York,
> Oxford:  Oxford University Press. Web

Also, like Ardis Eschenberg, Sara has been interested in the function and
evolution of plural marking.

Incidentally, Sara Trechter was named 2003-04 Outstanding Teacher at
Chico State.  (Congratulations, Sara!)


From rankin at ku.edu  Fri Jan 21 04:38:22 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 22:38:22 -0600
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
Message-ID: <THU.20.JAN.2005.223822.0600.>

For those of you who like Kevin Costner or Floyd Red
Crow Westerman and want to hear some spoken Lakota (or
that mysterious language no one can identify that is
supposed to be Pawnee), I see that the PAX network has
the movie scheduled for tomorrow (Friday) evening at 8
p.m. Central Time.  I don't know about other zones, but
the network is nationwide.

Bob


From phute-khniyanyan at cfl.rr.com  Fri Jan 21 12:34:27 2005
From: phute-khniyanyan at cfl.rr.com (phute-khniyanyan)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 07:34:27 -0500
Subject: Algonquian ( or ther group?)  term for White Buffalo Calf Woman?
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.073427.0500.>

The Lakhota have a legend about the coming of the White Buffalo Calf
Woman, who brings the ceremonial pipe to the Lakhotas.  The Lakhota term
for this person is "Pte Hinchila Ska (or SaN) Win".  My question is: Do
groups other than Siouan have this same or similar legend?  If so, what
is this person called?
 I ask this because, years ago in BAE, I came across identical stories
of the Lakhota trickster character "Iktomi", and the strategy he uses to
capture ducks by having them dance with their eyes closed, which was
identical to an Algonquian legend and their trickster character, even
though the Algonquian source of the legend was transcribed at a time
period when the Algonquian source was located far to the northeast of
the current location of the Lakhota.
Because the Algonquian were widely dispersed, it seems that a term for
White Buffalo Calf Woman would have been existed within this group, too.


From rankin at ku.edu  Fri Jan 21 15:10:59 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:10:59 -0600
Subject: Algonquian ( or ther group?)  term for White Buffalo Calf
 Woman?
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.091059.0600.>

I'm afraid I don't know the answer to this particular
question, but the story of trickster catching game
birds (ducks, gees turkeys in different versions) by
having them dance with their eyes closed  is VERY
widespread.  I have several versions of it from Kaw,
Omaha and Dakotan speakers and I heard a Sac and Fox
version last semester.  Is there an Algonquian listserv
out there anywhere?

Bob

----- Original Message -----
From: "phute-khniyanyan" <phute-khniyanyan at cfl.rr.com>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 6:34 AM
Subject: Algonquian ( or ther group?) term for White
Buffalo Calf Woman?


> The Lakhota have a legend about the coming of the
> White Buffalo Calf Woman, who brings the ceremonial
> pipe to the Lakhotas.  The Lakhota term for this
> person is "Pte Hinchila Ska (or SaN) Win".  My
> question is: Do groups other than Siouan have this
> same or similar legend?  If so, what is this person
> called? I ask this because, years ago in BAE, I came
> across identical stories of the Lakhota trickster
> character "Iktomi", and the strategy he uses to
> capture ducks by having them dance with their eyes
> closed, which was identical to an Algonquian legend
> and their trickster character, even though the
> Algonquian source of the legend was transcribed at a
> time period when the Algonquian source was located
> far to the northeast of the current location of the
> Lakhota.
> Because the Algonquian were widely dispersed, it
> seems that a term for White Buffalo Calf Woman would
> have been existed within this group, too.
>


From okibjonathan at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 21 16:10:20 2005
From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 08:10:20 -0800
Subject: Algonquian ( or other group?)  term for White Buffalo Calf
 Woman?
In-Reply-To: <003e01c4ffcb$6bbaba60$23b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.081020.0800.>

In the text, Teton Sioux Music by Frances Densmore, 1918, Bureau of American Ethnology, Bulletin 61, Smithsonian Institution, Washington, D.C., Government Printing Office, there is a chapter on Ceremonies which begins on page 63. The first topic is the legend of the White Buffalo Calf Maiden and how she brought the White Buffalo Calf Pipe referred to in the text as(Ptehin'Cala CanoN'pa) to the Sans Arc division of the Teton Lakota as dictated by an informant named Lone Man.

In two separate footnotes, there are references to other works.

Page 63 footnote:
"In connection with this chapter see Fletcher, Alice C., The White Buffalo Festival of the Uncpapas, Peabody Museum Reports, III, Nos. 3 and 4, pp.260-75, Cambridge, 1884."

Page 65 footnote:
"Cf. Bulletin 53, pp.143, 144, in which a woman is said to have been the supernatural means of bringing permanent peace between the Chippewa (aka Ojibway) and Sioux (aka Lakota)."

I hope this may give you some leads to what you were looking for. Just a cultural note however. Most early references to this female spiritual being talk about her as a "maiden" or young girl, not a "woman". She was said to be a virgin girl, about 14 years old in some stories. Which is why the stories talk about her changing into a White Buffalo "Calf", rather than a full grown Buffalo Cow. Therefore the term Lakota word "Win" may not be the accurate term to use in this case.

Good Luck,
Jonathan Holmes


"R. Rankin" <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:
I'm afraid I don't know the answer to this particular
question, but the story of trickster catching game
birds (ducks, gees turkeys in different versions) by
having them dance with their eyes closed is VERY
widespread. I have several versions of it from Kaw,
Omaha and Dakotan speakers and I heard a Sac and Fox
version last semester. Is there an Algonquian listserv
out there anywhere?

Bob

----- Original Message -----
From: "phute-khniyanyan"

To:
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 6:34 AM
Subject: Algonquian ( or ther group?) term for White
Buffalo Calf Woman?


> The Lakhota have a legend about the coming of the
> White Buffalo Calf Woman, who brings the ceremonial
> pipe to the Lakhotas. The Lakhota term for this
> person is "Pte Hinchila Ska (or SaN) Win". My
> question is: Do groups other than Siouan have this
> same or similar legend? If so, what is this person
> called? I ask this because, years ago in BAE, I came
> across identical stories of the Lakhota trickster
> character "Iktomi", and the strategy he uses to
> capture ducks by having them dance with their eyes
> closed, which was identical to an Algonquian legend
> and their trickster character, even though the
> Algonquian source of the legend was transcribed at a
> time period when the Algonquian source was located
> far to the northeast of the current location of the
> Lakhota.
> Because the Algonquian were widely dispersed, it
> seems that a term for White Buffalo Calf Woman would
> have been existed within this group, too.
>


		
---------------------------------
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From okibjonathan at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 21 17:23:02 2005
From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:23:02 -0800
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
In-Reply-To: <002f01c4ff73$0a7c59a0$0cb5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.092302.0800.>

When "Dances With Wolves" first came out I found out that a couple of Lakota friends (Doris Leader Charge who is also in a couple of non-speaking scenes, and Albert White Hat, Sr.) had been instrumental in teaching the cast how to speak Lakota. Unfortunately other Lakota speakers from both Pine Ridge and Rosebud who watched the movie gave the cast an overall B+ for their ability. My Pawnee friends gave higher marks for the Pawnee language used in the movie. "They spoke good Pawnee." Still, the movie did much better than some other movies in the past.


"R. Rankin" <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:
For those of you who like Kevin Costner or Floyd Red
Crow Westerman and want to hear some spoken Lakota (or
that mysterious language no one can identify that is
supposed to be Pawnee), I see that the PAX network has
the movie scheduled for tomorrow (Friday) evening at 8
p.m. Central Time. I don't know about other zones, but
the network is nationwide.

Bob


		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
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From rankin at ku.edu  Fri Jan 21 17:49:06 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:49:06 -0600
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.114906.0600.>

That's interesting.  I had heard that at least one Pawnee specialist
couldn't identify the language as Pawnee in the short clip in which it
was used.  As for the Lakota, I heard several different versions.  One
was that some of the film was done in Canada and that a number of Cree
speakers had to be coached on the Lakota dialog.  Others have told me
that most of the actors were actually Lakotas.  At least Floyd Westerman
and some of the other Lakota "elders" in the film seem to be fluent.
Bob

	-----Original Message-----
	From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Jonathan Holmes
	Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 11:23 AM
	To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
	Subject: Re: Dances with Wolves.
	
	
	When "Dances With Wolves" first came out I found out that a
couple of Lakota friends (Doris Leader Charge who is also in a couple of
non-speaking scenes, and Albert White Hat, Sr.) had been instrumental in
teaching the cast how to speak Lakota. Unfortunately other Lakota
speakers from both Pine Ridge and Rosebud who watched the movie gave the
cast an overall B+ for their ability. My Pawnee friends gave higher
marks for the Pawnee language used in the movie. "They spoke good
Pawnee." Still, the movie did much better than some other movies in the
past.


	"R. Rankin" <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:

		For those of you who like Kevin Costner or Floyd Red 
		Crow Westerman and want to hear some spoken Lakota (or 
		that mysterious language no one can identify that is 
		supposed to be Pawnee), I see that the PAX network has 
		the movie scheduled for tomorrow (Friday) evening at 8 
		p.m. Central Time. I don't know about other zones, but 
		the network is nationwide.
		
		Bob 
		
		

	
  _____  

	Do you Yahoo!?
	Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=30648/*http://movies.yahoo.com/movies/featur
e/jibjabinaugural.html> 

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From lcumberl at indiana.edu  Fri Jan 21 18:05:25 2005
From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:05:25 -0500
Subject: Algonquian ( or ther group?)  term for White Buffalo Calf
 Woman?
In-Reply-To: <41F0F6D3.4000900@cfl.rr.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.130525.0500.>

The Assiniboine do not have the White Buffalo Calf Woman in their tradition,
although she seems to be finding her way in as a result of ceremony
"revitalization" that dips into the more extensive record of Lakhota traditions
as a source, and also from recruiting Sioux holy men as leaders of major
ceremonies in Assiniboine communities.  As far as I can tell, the Assiniboine do
not have a specific origin story to account for the introduction of the pipe
(and all the social behaviors presumably introduced at the same time). I have
heard a couple of different stories, but on the whole, Assiniboine people say
only that use of the pipe is ancient. If one does the arithmetic counting back
from Arvol Looking Horse as 19th carrier of the Pipe, and assuming 20 years as a
generation, the appearance of the White Buffalo Calf Woman roughly coincides
with the hypothesized date for an Assiniobine/Sioux separation, which could
account for her absence in Assiniboine tradition. (19 x 20 + 380; hypothesized
separation approx. 400 yrs.). All of this is conjecture, though.

Linda

Quoting phute-khniyanyan <phute-khniyanyan at cfl.rr.com>:

> The Lakhota have a legend about the coming of the White Buffalo Calf
> Woman, who brings the ceremonial pipe to the Lakhotas.  The Lakhota term
> for this person is "Pte Hinchila Ska (or SaN) Win".  My question is: Do
> groups other than Siouan have this same or similar legend?  If so, what
> is this person called?
>  I ask this because, years ago in BAE, I came across identical stories
> of the Lakhota trickster character "Iktomi", and the strategy he uses to
> capture ducks by having them dance with their eyes closed, which was
> identical to an Algonquian legend and their trickster character, even
> though the Algonquian source of the legend was transcribed at a time
> period when the Algonquian source was located far to the northeast of
> the current location of the Lakhota.
> Because the Algonquian were widely dispersed, it seems that a term for
> White Buffalo Calf Woman would have been existed within this group, too.
>
>
>


From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU  Fri Jan 21 20:52:43 2005
From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:52:43 -0700
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D01233BCC@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.135243.0700.>

All of the main characters in this film are speaking Lakhota that they
learned just for the movie -- essentially they learned to mouth nonsense
(to them) sounds.  That the results resemble rather comprehensible, but
definitely non-native, Lakhota is kind of a major tribute to the actors'
imitative abilities.  But there is one scene that remains my favorite.
In a tipi after the buffalo hunt, some older women are discussing the
event.  They are not only speaking native Lakhota, they are using
traditional sign language to go along with their speaches.

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote:

> That's interesting.  I had heard that at least one Pawnee specialist
> couldn't identify the language as Pawnee in the short clip in which it
> was used.  As for the Lakota, I heard several different versions.  One
> was that some of the film was done in Canada and that a number of Cree
> speakers had to be coached on the Lakota dialog.  Others have told me
> that most of the actors were actually Lakotas.  At least Floyd Westerman
> and some of the other Lakota "elders" in the film seem to be fluent.
> Bob
>
> 	-----Original Message-----
> 	From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Jonathan Holmes
> 	Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 11:23 AM
> 	To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> 	Subject: Re: Dances with Wolves.
>
>
> 	When "Dances With Wolves" first came out I found out that a
> couple of Lakota friends (Doris Leader Charge who is also in a couple of
> non-speaking scenes, and Albert White Hat, Sr.) had been instrumental in
> teaching the cast how to speak Lakota. Unfortunately other Lakota
> speakers from both Pine Ridge and Rosebud who watched the movie gave the
> cast an overall B+ for their ability. My Pawnee friends gave higher
> marks for the Pawnee language used in the movie. "They spoke good
> Pawnee." Still, the movie did much better than some other movies in the
> past.
>
>
> 	"R. Rankin" <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:
>
> 		For those of you who like Kevin Costner or Floyd Red
> 		Crow Westerman and want to hear some spoken Lakota (or
> 		that mysterious language no one can identify that is
> 		supposed to be Pawnee), I see that the PAX network has
> 		the movie scheduled for tomorrow (Friday) evening at 8
> 		p.m. Central Time. I don't know about other zones, but
> 		the network is nationwide.
>
> 		Bob
>
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> 	Do you Yahoo!?
> 	Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=30648/*http://movies.yahoo.com/movies/featur
> e/jibjabinaugural.html>
>
>


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Jan 21 21:00:20 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:00:20 -0700
Subject: Algonquian ( or ther group?)  term for White Buffalo Calf
 Woman?
In-Reply-To: <003e01c4ffcb$6bbaba60$23b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.140020.0700.>

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, R. Rankin wrote:
> I'm afraid I don't know the answer to this particular question, but the
> story of trickster catching game birds (ducks, gees turkeys in different
> versions) by having them dance with their eyes closed is VERY
> widespread.  I have several versions of it from Kaw, Omaha and Dakotan
> speakers and I heard a Sac and Fox version last semester.

I haven't really run into an parallel for WBC Woman, though there could
easily be one I don't know of.  This sounds like a question for Jimm
Goodtracks or Jan Ullrich.  Actually, my only encounters with WBC Woman
have been people asking me if I've run into a parallel outside of Dakotan.
First they explain who she is, and then I say no.

Trickster is another matter.

There is a interesting study of the Trickster cycle and some others in
Winnebago (Hochank) by Paul Radin.  English texts are provided, with
extensive footnotes and some folkloric analysis.  I've always wondered
what happened to the Winnebago originals mentioned.  Many of the Trickster
stories in this volume and many of the others, too, are represented in the
Dorsey Omaha-Ponca text collection of 1890.

The Iktomi stories I've seen have a heavy overlap with the Winnebago and
Omaha-Ponca Trickster stories, but less than you find between those two.
I'm not sure if that impression would hold up under an extensive
cataloging effort, however.

At least some of the standard Mississippi Valley Trickster stories occur
also in Mandan (and so I assume also Crow and Hidatsa), in Cheyenne, and
in Wichita.  They seem to be different from the Coyote stories you run
into elsewhere, though there is some overlap.   There are actually a few
Omaha Coyote stories, perhaps imported.

The Dakota trickster Iktomi 'Spider' shares the sense of the name which
with Cheyenne.  I think that's a Northern pattern.  The Dhegiha,
Ioway-Otoe, and Winnebago Trickster is called (Omaha-Ponca version)
Is^tiniNkhe ~ IshtidhiNkhe.  The name might be rendered Ishtinike in
English spelling, but he is usually called Monkey in English by Omahas and
- I think - Poncas.  He appears physically as a human character with an
enormous phallos, detachable, that he keeps wrapped in a raccoon skin.
The name has no clear meaning other than Trickster, though the first part
Is^t- resembles is^ta' 'eye(s)' and might connect with the raccoon idea.

Another pattern for naming Trickster that occurs in the upper Missouri
area is using a name that is also applied to whitemen, resulting in
Trickster being called Whiteman in English.  This occurs in Cheyenne, too,
where a single term is used for spider(s), whiteman, and Trickster.

Another widespread cycle - with a lot of local variation - is the Twins
story, which is considerably abbreviated and missing its beginning and
later episodes in the Omaha-Ponca texts, though this is just chance, since
longer versions are available from LaFlesche and for Ioway-Otoe.  Also
Pawnee.  This cycle is important in the Southwest and Lowie's study of the
Hidatsa (and Crow) version calls it a "national epic" in that context.
In the Omaha-Ponca version the twins are sons of the Sun and after careful
training in monster slaying by their father track down and kill the
Two-Face monster who killed their mother, using a sun arrow.  Most of this
detail is missing from the truncated story in Dorsey 1890, but obviously
parallels the Navajo and Hidatsa versions.

While some stories shared by different groups seem to be cases of a whole
cycle and collection of ideas being shared, others seem to involve random
individual stories that appealed to someone.  Examples are:

The Omaha-Ponca story of Big Turtle's (Snapping Turtle's) War Party, which
I noticed in thumbing through a Fox collection.

The Omaha-Ponca story about a nation led by grizzly bear that abandons
its children, who then form a new tribe.  This has such a different view
of the kinship system and Ishtinike that Dorsey comments on the anomalies.
I discovered it in a Blackfoot collection where it appears perfectly in
context in a society based on age-grouping.  (And I understand the
tutelary Trickster who invents arrows and warfare is a northern element,
too.)

> Is there an Algonquian listserv out there anywhere?

Shannon West has one, but I think it is inactive.  My experience is that
to start one of these things you need to go out and draft people fairly
vigorously.  It's probably not necessary to be quite as officiously chatty
after that as I am, but occasional kick(re)starting is necessary.  Also,
some sort of gentle control over the discussion has to be exerted to avoid
some of the pitfalls, like, uh, well, wandering off too far (not yet, I
hope) into folklore or politics, or allowing monomaniacs (other than
oneself) to seize the soapbox and defend the Turko-Siouan connection or
Maddocism viciously against all comers.


From shanwest at shaw.ca  Fri Jan 21 21:15:16 2005
From: shanwest at shaw.ca (Shannon West)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:15:16 -0800
Subject: Algonquian ( or ther group?)  term for White Buffalo Calf
 Woman?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0501211231030.29600@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.131516.0800.>

Koontz John E wrote:

>On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, R. Rankin wrote:
>
>
>>Is there an Algonquian listserv out there anywhere?
>>
>>
>
>Shannon West has one, but I think it is inactive.  My experience is that
>to start one of these things you need to go out and draft people fairly
>vigorously.  It's probably not necessary to be quite as officiously chatty
>after that as I am, but occasional kick(re)starting is necessary.  Also,
>some sort of gentle control over the discussion has to be exerted to avoid
>some of the pitfalls, like, uh, well, wandering off too far (not yet, I
>hope) into folklore or politics, or allowing monomaniacs (other than
>oneself) to seize the soapbox and defend the Turko-Siouan connection or
>Maddocism viciously against all comers.
>
>
This is all true. I have one, and it's inactive. I don't even know if it
works anymore, since I had it on UVic servers, and I've since graduated.
But it's been into the years category since anyone has posted.

If people are interested in it again, I'd be willing to get it going.
Email me if you're interested. If I get 5 replies, I'll start 'er up. :)

And it's the Ugric-Siouan connection! ;)

Shannon - coloured silly by headache.


From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 21 21:17:18 2005
From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:17:18 -0800
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0501211348380.18488@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.131718.0800.>


-- They are not only speaking native Lakhota, they are using traditional sign language to go along with their speaches. --  This prompts me to ask: I had always heard that tribes used sign language when communicating with other tribes who spoke different languages.  But does this Lakhota example of using sign language in "Dances With Wolves" even among themselves mean that they also routinely used sign language amongst themselves to supplement their common spoken language?  Just curious.

Dave

ROOD DAVID S <rood at spot.Colorado.EDU> wrote:

All of the main characters in this film are speaking Lakhota that they
learned just for the movie -- essentially they learned to mouth nonsense
(to them) sounds. That the results resemble rather comprehensible, but
definitely non-native, Lakhota is kind of a major tribute to the actors'
imitative abilities. But there is one scene that remains my favorite.
In a tipi after the buffalo hunt, some older women are discussing the
event. They are not only speaking native Lakhota, they are using
traditional sign language to go along with their speaches.

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote:

> That's interesting. I had heard that at least one Pawnee specialist
> couldn't identify the language as Pawnee in the short clip in which it
> was used. As for the Lakota, I heard several different versions. One
> was that some of the film was done in Canada and that a number of Cree
> speakers had to be coached on the Lakota dialog. Others have told me
> that most of the actors were actually Lakotas. At least Floyd Westerman
> and some of the other Lakota "elders" in the film seem to be fluent.
> Bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Jonathan Holmes
> Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 11:23 AM
> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> Subject: Re: Dances with Wolves.
>
>
> When "Dances With Wolves" first came out I found out that a
> couple of Lakota friends (Doris Leader Charge who is also in a couple of
> non-speaking scenes, and Albert White Hat, Sr.) had been instrumental in
> teaching the cast how to speak Lakota. Unfortunately other Lakota
> speakers from both Pine Ridge and Rosebud who watched the movie gave the
> cast an overall B+ for their ability. My Pawnee friends gave higher
> marks for the Pawnee language used in the movie. "They spoke good
> Pawnee." Still, the movie did much better than some other movies in the
> past.
>
>
> "R. Rankin" wrote:
>
> For those of you who like Kevin Costner or Floyd Red
> Crow Westerman and want to hear some spoken Lakota (or
> that mysterious language no one can identify that is
> supposed to be Pawnee), I see that the PAX network has
> the movie scheduled for tomorrow (Friday) evening at 8
> p.m. Central Time. I don't know about other zones, but
> the network is nationwide.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
> > e/jibjabinaugural.html>
>
>


		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.
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From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU  Fri Jan 21 21:28:24 2005
From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:28:24 -0700
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
In-Reply-To: <20050121211718.36602.qmail@web53806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.142824.0700.>

You need to read Brenda Farnell's book on this topic, which I have to
confess I know only from hearsay and/or conference presentations I've
seen.  As I understand it, northern plains tribes use sign language in
parallel with spoken language for story-telling; people say that it's the
signs that give the story its "atmosphere".  I once saw Brenda demonstrate
her Assiniboine tapes to an audience that included Stoneys.  The Stoneys
couldn't understand the spoken language, but related totally to the signs.


David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, David Kaufman wrote:

>  -- They are not only speaking native Lakhota, they are using
> traditional sign language to go along with their speeches. -- This
> prompts me to ask: I had always heard that tribes used sign language
> when communicating with other tribes who spoke different languages.
> But does this Lakhota example of using sign language in "Dances With
> Wolves" even among themselves mean that they also routinely used sign
> language amongst themselves to supplement their common spoken language?
> Just curious.
>
> Dave
>
> ROOD DAVID S <rood at spot.Colorado.EDU> wrote:
>
> All of the main characters in this film are speaking Lakhota that they
> learned just for the movie -- essentially they learned to mouth nonsense
> (to them) sounds. That the results resemble rather comprehensible, but
> definitely non-native, Lakhota is kind of a major tribute to the actors'
> imitative abilities. But there is one scene that remains my favorite.
> In a tipi after the buffalo hunt, some older women are discussing the
> event. They are not only speaking native Lakhota, they are using
> traditional sign language to go along with their speaches.
>
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> 295 UCB
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu
>
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
>
> > That's interesting. I had heard that at least one Pawnee specialist
> > couldn't identify the language as Pawnee in the short clip in which it
> > was used. As for the Lakota, I heard several different versions. One
> > was that some of the film was done in Canada and that a number of Cree
> > speakers had to be coached on the Lakota dialog. Others have told me
> > that most of the actors were actually Lakotas. At least Floyd Westerman
> > and some of the other Lakota "elders" in the film seem to be fluent.
> > Bob
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Jonathan Holmes
> > Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 11:23 AM
> > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> > Subject: Re: Dances with Wolves.
> >
> >
> > When "Dances With Wolves" first came out I found out that a
> > couple of Lakota friends (Doris Leader Charge who is also in a couple of
> > non-speaking scenes, and Albert White Hat, Sr.) had been instrumental in
> > teaching the cast how to speak Lakota. Unfortunately other Lakota
> > speakers from both Pine Ridge and Rosebud who watched the movie gave the
> > cast an overall B+ for their ability. My Pawnee friends gave higher
> > marks for the Pawnee language used in the movie. "They spoke good
> > Pawnee." Still, the movie did much better than some other movies in the
> > past.
> >
> >
> > "R. Rankin" wrote:
> >
> > For those of you who like Kevin Costner or Floyd Red
> > Crow Westerman and want to hear some spoken Lakota (or
> > that mysterious language no one can identify that is
> > supposed to be Pawnee), I see that the PAX network has
> > the movie scheduled for tomorrow (Friday) evening at 8
> > p.m. Central Time. I don't know about other zones, but
> > the network is nationwide.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
> > > e/jibjabinaugural.html>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.


From jmcbride at kawnation.com  Fri Jan 21 21:54:19 2005
From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:54:19 -0600
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.155419.0600.>

> This prompts me to ask: I had always heard that tribes used sign language when communicating with other tribes who spoke different languages. 
> But does this Lakhota example of using sign language in "Dances With Wolves" even among themselves mean that they also routinely used
> sign language amongst themselves to supplement their common spoken language?  Just curious.

I'v always heard that back in the day, some of the older Osage men in my hometown of Pawhuska, OK, used to sit around on parkbenches signing all day long with each other.  Supposedly it was hours of silence punctuated by occasional laughter.  I heard the same stories about the Grayhorse elders.  Whenever they came into Fairfax, they'd sign back and forth instead of talking.  I don't know how true this is, of course, but that's just what I've heard.

-Justin
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From munro at ucla.edu  Fri Jan 21 23:21:26 2005
From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:21:26 -0800
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
In-Reply-To: <20050121172302.21520.qmail@web54507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.152126.0800.>

I guess I'll throw in my story on this.

My dear departed Lakhota teacher Hannah Left Hand Bull Fixico worked
with Kevin C. in Hollywood on the editing of the movie, an experience
that deeply impressed her (she sat with him and told him when it would
make sense to cut, etc.) -- he was very polite and deferential to her,
and she just loved him.

But when we sat down on one occasion with the video and tried to make a
transcript of one of the Lakhota conversations (among non-native
speakers), she was so dismayed by the quality of the Lakhota -- when it
came to writing it down word for word, rather than just letting it flow
along -- that she became very uncomfortable and didn't want to continue.
She would not, I think, have given as high a grade as B+...

Pam

Jonathan Holmes wrote:

> When "Dances With Wolves" first came out I found out that a couple
> of Lakota friends (Doris Leader Charge who is also in a couple of
> non-speaking scenes, and Albert White Hat, Sr.) had been instrumental
> in teaching the cast how to speak Lakota. Unfortunately other Lakota
> speakers from both Pine Ridge and Rosebud who watched the movie
> gave the cast an overall B+ for their ability. My Pawnee friends gave
> higher marks for the Pawnee language used in the movie. "They spoke
> good Pawnee." Still, the movie did much better than some other movies
> in the past.
>
>
> "R. Rankin" <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:
>
>     For those of you who like Kevin Costner or Floyd Red
>     Crow Westerman and want to hear some spoken Lakota (or
>     that mysterious language no one can identify that is
>     supposed to be Pawnee), I see that the PAX network has
>     the movie scheduled for tomorrow (Friday) evening at 8
>     p.m. Central Time. I don't know about other zones, but
>     the network is nationwide.
>
>     Bob
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=30648/*http://movies.yahoo.com/movies/feature/jibjabinaugural.html>



--
----
Pamela Munro
Professor, Department of Linguistics, UCLA
UCLA Box 951543
Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 USA
http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/linguistics/people/munro/munro.htm



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From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Sat Jan 22 00:05:38 2005
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:05:38 -0600
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
In-Reply-To: <41F18E76.1040605@ucla.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.180538.0600.>

> My dear departed Lakhota teacher Hannah Left Hand Bull Fixico

Judging from her last name, she must have had a Creek connection.


From munro at ucla.edu  Sat Jan 22 00:15:19 2005
From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:15:19 -0800
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
In-Reply-To: <41F198D2.9030304@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JAN.2005.161519.0800.>

True. Her husband was Creek. Pam

Alan H. Hartley wrote:

>> My dear departed Lakhota teacher Hannah Left Hand Bull Fixico
>
>
> Judging from her last name, she must have had a Creek connection.
>

--
Pamela Munro,
Professor, Linguistics, UCLA
UCLA Box 951543
Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543
http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/munro/munro.htm


From okibjonathan at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 22 20:08:42 2005
From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 12:08:42 -0800
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
In-Reply-To: <001d01c50003$c4199540$6000a8c0@Language>
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JAN.2005.120842.0800.>

Whenever I have had the occassion, over the last 30 years, to sit with elders amongst the Osage, Ponca, Pawnee, Comanche, Oglala Lakota, Sicangu Lakota, Southern Cheyenne, Picuni Blackfoot, Sauk & Fox, and Kiowa, there is frequently a tendency for some elders to speak and sign with their hands at the same time whether they are speaking in english or their native tongue. It seems to be a natural extention of their expressive nature when telling a story, but not a lot of younger generations are picking up the habit.
Jonathan

Justin McBride <jmcbride at kawnation.com> wrote:
> This prompts me to ask: I had always heard that tribes used sign language when communicating with other tribes who spoke different languages.
> But does this Lakhota example of using sign language in "Dances With Wolves" even among themselves mean that they also routinely used
> sign language amongst themselves to supplement their common spoken language?  Just curious.

I'v always heard that back in the day, some of the older Osage men in my hometown of Pawhuska, OK, used to sit around on parkbenches signing all day long with each other.  Supposedly it was hours of silence punctuated by occasional laughter.  I heard the same stories about the Grayhorse elders.  Whenever they came into Fairfax, they'd sign back and forth instead of talking.  I don't know how true this is, of course, but that's just what I've heard.

-Justin

		
---------------------------------
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 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
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From goodtracks at GBRonline.com  Sun Jan 23 02:49:27 2005
From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 20:49:27 -0600
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JAN.2005.204927.0600.>


I will have to concur with Jonathan's observation and remarks which coincide with my own experience.  One old Arapaho, Custer Lumpmouth, consistently and simultaneously signed while he conversed.
Since the passing of all these elders by 1990, this form of expression is all but lost, except for some intermittent minimal signing without conversation during Native American Church tipi prayer services.
I might note that it has become popular at powwows and exhibitions, shows, etc. to have an attractive young girl, usually in a buckskin dress to sign the Lord's Prayer to a background pre-recorded tape.  Once in the 80's, I asked and elderly Ioway uncle if he could follow along with the young girl as she signed the prayer.  He curtly replied "No!".   Apparently, something is lost in the process, when the signing becomes simply an entertaining act, rather than an actual form of communication.  I say this, as the young ladies would be virtually unable to sign nor understand a more typical interactive format.  
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jonathan Holmes 
  To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu 
  Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 2:08 PM
  Subject: Re: Dances with Wolves.


  Whenever I have had the occassion, over the last 30 years, to sit with elders amongst the Osage, Ponca, Pawnee, Comanche, Oglala Lakota, Sicangu Lakota, Southern Cheyenne, Picuni Blackfoot, Sauk & Fox, and Kiowa, there is frequently a tendency for some elders to speak and sign with their hands at the same time whether they are speaking in english or their native tongue. It seems to be a natural extention of their expressive nature when telling a story, but not a lot of younger generations are picking up the habit.
  Jonathan

  Justin McBride <jmcbride at kawnation.com> wrote:
    > This prompts me to ask: I had always heard that tribes used sign language when communicating with other tribes who spoke different languages. 
    > But does this Lakhota example of using sign language in "Dances With Wolves" even among themselves mean that they also routinely used
    > sign language amongst themselves to supplement their common spoken language?  Just curious.

    I'v always heard that back in the day, some of the older Osage men in my hometown of Pawhuska, OK, used to sit around on parkbenches signing all day long with each other.  Supposedly it was hours of silence punctuated by occasional laughter.  I heard the same stories about the Grayhorse elders.  Whenever they came into Fairfax, they'd sign back and forth instead of talking.  I don't know how true this is, of course, but that's just what I've heard.

    -Justin


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From goodtracks at GBRonline.com  Sun Jan 23 05:41:48 2005
From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:41:48 -0600
Subject: Algonquian ( or ther group?)  term for White Buffalo Calf
 Woman?
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JAN.2005.234148.0600.>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Koontz John E" <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
To: "Siouan List" <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: Algonquian ( or the group?) term for White Buffalo Calf Woman?


Among the Pawnee and Arickara, the parallel is Atira Reksu/ Atina Reksu
[Mother Corn].
Such a single Sacred Personage does not occur for the IOM.  Instead, the
Sacred Pipe and Teachings are woven into each individual Clan story with the
elements being unique to each Clan version names.  The bowl of the pipe is
discovered by the Bear Brothers [an Earth moiety] in the meeting of a little
spirit man.  The stem is later secured in a revelation of seeing a snag in
the water with moss hanging from it.  Also later, the Beaver Clan give a
stem to the Brothers, after one of the Brothers chews the end of the stem.
The Buffalo are said to have already had their Pipe when they came down to
the earth [Sky moiety].  I have looked into the Winnebago/ Hochank Clan
origin legends available and find a similarity to the IOM, although the
versions available are less informative than those for the IOM.
WBC seems to be unique to the L/Dakotas.

> I haven't really run into an parallel for WBC Woman, though there could
> easily be one I don't know of.  This sounds like a question for Jimm
> Goodtracks or Jan Ullrich.  Actually, my only encounters with WBC Woman
> have been people asking me if I've run into a parallel outside of Dakotan.
>
> Trickster is another matter.
> There is a interesting study of the Trickster cycle and some others in
> Winnebago (Hochank) by Paul Radin.  English texts are provided, with
> extensive footnotes and some folkloric analysis.   Many of the Trickster
> stories in this volume and many of the others, too, are represented in the
> Dorsey Omaha-Ponca text collection of 1890.
>

Yes, it is one of several good studies by P.Radin.

> The Iktomi stories I've seen have a heavy overlap with the Winnebago and
> Omaha-Ponca Trickster stories, but less than you find between those two.
>

This is true for the IOM stories as well, and the same is true as mentioned
below for the Hidatsa and Mandan, albeit, with anticipated variation as
would be expected.  And as suggested, I can see some stories seeming to have
been exchanged from other groups.
> At least some of the standard Mississippi Valley Trickster stories occur
> also in Mandan (and so I assume also Crow and Hidatsa), in Cheyenne, and
> in Wichita.  They seem to be different from the Coyote stories
> elsewhere, though there is some overlap.   There are actually a few
> Omaha Coyote stories, perhaps imported.
>

The D/Lakota Iktomi is the IOM Ishjinki [Is^jiNki].  In English, he is
simply referred to as "Old Man Ishjinki".  There is a story that he was
orphaned as a youngster, without discussion of how so.  He was raised by a
grandfather who killed a large raccoon, tanning the hide, cutting it into
strips, so the boy could wrap his extrodinary long genital, which he carries
upon his back.  The period between his youth and the time he becomes an old
man are quite absent.  All the remaining stories of Ishjinki occurr as an
old man.  There are a number of stories that entail situations which include
the use or misuse of his long member.  This was also noted in several of the
Mandan/ Hidatsa stories.  In one episode, he encounters a ground squirrel
who teases him and taunts him that he will bite his member.  Ultimately,
Ishjinki chases the squirrel to a hole in the ground.  Ishjinki trys to prod
him out with his erect member to which the squirrel bites off the end and
continues to whittle it down further to a contemporary size.  The story
concludes that had the squirrel not done this act, the Buffalo Clan people
would still be overly endowed.
Due to the rather saucy theme of these kind of story episodes, it becomes a
rather delicate matter to relate these stories to mixed audiences of
non-Natives, and even to some Natives themselves today.  Nevertheless, I
have recordings of elderly ladies in their 80s who had no difficulty
relating the episodes which they found to be amusing and of no other
consequence, and Christian teachings to wit, notwithstanding.  They laughed
together as one sang the the Wekan (story) song that is included with the
squirrel episode, as in their minds they could picture the ridiculousness of
such an old man going along with his "re'" drapped over his shoulder down
his back and then being teased by the little squirrel who sings the song.

> The Dakota trickster Iktomi 'Spider' shares the sense of the name which
> with Cheyenne.  I think that's a Northern pattern.  The Dhegiha,
> Ioway-Otoe, and Winnebago Trickster is called (Omaha-Ponca version)
> Is^tiniNkhe ~ IshtidhiNkhe.  The name might be rendered Ishtinike in
> English spelling, but he is usually called Monkey in English by Omahas and
> - I think - Poncas.  He appears physically as a human character with an
> enormous phallos, detachable, that he keeps wrapped in a raccoon skin.
> The name has no clear meaning other than Trickster
>

 In the Twins (below) they are actually born by an act of violence  in both
the Ioway/ Otoe-Missouria version, as well as the Hidatsa-Mandan version,
although by different evil beings.  The IOM have the father taking the
younger to the woods where he is abandoned and adopted by a wood rat
Grandmother.  He does so by fact of the father's inability to raise two
infants.  The northern version has the evil headless being throwing one to
an outside spring and the other to the back of the lodge.
In a conversation with a Navajo/ Dine woman, I learned that the Dine had
legend stories about the Twin Holy Boys.  A Dine friend lent me his book
called something like Dine Bezhanni or the like, which included the Dine
version of the Twins.  While I noted some parallels, the episodes were quite
divergent, more than any other versions I had read to date.
> Another widespread cycle - with a lot of local variation - is the Twins
> story, which is considerably abbreviated and missing its beginning and
> later episodes in the Omaha-Ponca texts, though this is just chance, since
> longer versions are available from LaFlesche and for Ioway-Otoe.  Also
> Pawnee.  This cycle is important in the Southwest and Lowie's study of the
> Hidatsa (and Crow) version calls it a "national epic" in that context.
> In the Omaha-Ponca version the twins are sons of the Sun and after careful
> training in monster slaying by their father track down and kill the
> Two-Face monster who killed their mother, using a sun arrow.  Most of this
> detail is missing from the truncated story in Dorsey 1890, but obviously
> parallels the Navajo and Hidatsa versions.
>
> While some stories shared by different groups seem to be cases of a whole
> cycle and collection of ideas being shared, others seem to involve random
> individual stories that appealed to someone.  Examples are:
>
> The Omaha-Ponca story of Big Turtle's (Snapping Turtle's) War Party, which
> I noticed in thumbing through a Fox collection.
>
> The Omaha-Ponca story about a nation led by grizzly bear that abandons
> its children, who then form a new tribe.  This has such a different view
> of the kinship system and Ishtinike that Dorsey comments on the anomalies.
> I discovered it in a Blackfoot collection where it appears perfectly in
> context in a society based on age-grouping.  (And I understand the
> tutelary Trickster who invents arrows and warfare is a northern element,
> too.)
>


From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk  Sun Jan 23 12:55:01 2005
From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 12:55:01 +0000
Subject: Fixico
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JAN.2005.125501.0000.>

As I recall froma  presnetation by Bill Sturtevant on names among
Seminole groups. Fixico is Muskogee /fik-siko/ 'without a heart' -
right, Pam?

Anthony
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From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Jan 23 15:19:19 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 09:19:19 -0600
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JAN.2005.091919.0600.>

> Once in the 80's, I asked and elderly Ioway uncle if
> he could follow along with the young girl as she
> signed the prayer.  He curtly replied "No!".
> Apparently, something is lost in the process, when
> the signing becomes simply an entertaining act,
> rather than an actual form of communication.  I say
> this, as the young ladies would be virtually unable
> to sign nor understand a more typical interactive
> format.

Last year I discovered that at least some of these
presentations by powwow princesses are being learned in
American Sign Language (ASL), not the Plains Sign
Language (PSL).  These are two different languages, and
someone who knows one of them won't be able to
interpret the other.  I expect that there are quite a
lot of people who believe that there is only one "sign
language".  This comes from the idea that signing is
just a form of pantomime.  But that idea is wrong:
signs are different in the various sign languages, and
there are hundreds of different sign languages in use,
mostly in deaf communities, worldwide.

Bob


From cstelfer at ucalgary.ca  Mon Jan 24 00:03:21 2005
From: cstelfer at ucalgary.ca (cstelfer at ucalgary.ca)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 17:03:21 -0700
Subject: Dances with Wolves.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0501211424050.16134@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JAN.2005.170321.0700.>

> her Assiniboine tapes to an audience that included Stoneys.  The Stoneys
> couldn't understand the spoken language, but related totally to the
> signs.
>

I recall an anecdote which suggested that Stoneys could understand the
spoken language of the Assiniboines, but the reverse was not true.  I
think it was Linda Cumberland who told a story along these lines, but I
could be mistaken, or have the relationship reversed.

On another note, I know an older Stoney man who has been mute due to a
fever he had when he was somewhere around 12-14 years old.  He has
developed his own sign language which he uses to "speak" to his family
(he can hear fine, so his family only need to know how to "listen" to the
signs, not how to produce them).  What is of interest is that this sign
language bears no relationship to Plains Sign Talk as far as I know, as
his relatives tell me that they are the only ones who can interpret for
him.  So it seems that perhaps, at this point in time, the Stoneys have
lost Plains Sign Talk altogether.  Another interesting part of this story
is that this man's wife sometimes helps him "practice" ASL, I guess
because their ad hoc sign language isn't considered to be "real".
However, for a person who lives in an isolated area, has several relatives
and descendents (he's a grandfather) who can interpret for him and who has
no contact with a deaf community, it seems completely futile to learn ASL
-which probably explains why he has never mastered it.

Corey.







>
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> 295 UCB
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu
>
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, David Kaufman wrote:
>
>>  -- They are not only speaking native Lakhota, they are using
>> traditional sign language to go along with their speeches. -- This
>> prompts me to ask: I had always heard that tribes used sign language
>> when communicating with other tribes who spoke different languages.
>> But does this Lakhota example of using sign language in "Dances With
>> Wolves" even among themselves mean that they also routinely used sign
>> language amongst themselves to supplement their common spoken language?
>> Just curious.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> ROOD DAVID S <rood at spot.Colorado.EDU> wrote:
>>
>> All of the main characters in this film are speaking Lakhota that they
>> learned just for the movie -- essentially they learned to mouth
>> nonsense
>> (to them) sounds. That the results resemble rather comprehensible, but
>> definitely non-native, Lakhota is kind of a major tribute to the
>> actors'
>> imitative abilities. But there is one scene that remains my favorite.
>> In a tipi after the buffalo hunt, some older women are discussing the
>> event. They are not only speaking native Lakhota, they are using
>> traditional sign language to go along with their speaches.
>>
>> David S. Rood
>> Dept. of Linguistics
>> Univ. of Colorado
>> 295 UCB
>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
>> USA
>> rood at colorado.edu
>>
>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
>>
>> > That's interesting. I had heard that at least one Pawnee specialist
>> > couldn't identify the language as Pawnee in the short clip in which
>> it
>> > was used. As for the Lakota, I heard several different versions. One
>> > was that some of the film was done in Canada and that a number of
>> Cree
>> > speakers had to be coached on the Lakota dialog. Others have told me
>> > that most of the actors were actually Lakotas. At least Floyd
>> Westerman
>> > and some of the other Lakota "elders" in the film seem to be fluent.
>> > Bob
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
>> > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Jonathan Holmes
>> > Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 11:23 AM
>> > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
>> > Subject: Re: Dances with Wolves.
>> >
>> >
>> > When "Dances With Wolves" first came out I found out that a
>> > couple of Lakota friends (Doris Leader Charge who is also in a couple
>> of
>> > non-speaking scenes, and Albert White Hat, Sr.) had been instrumental
>> in
>> > teaching the cast how to speak Lakota. Unfortunately other Lakota
>> > speakers from both Pine Ridge and Rosebud who watched the movie gave
>> the
>> > cast an overall B+ for their ability. My Pawnee friends gave higher
>> > marks for the Pawnee language used in the movie. "They spoke good
>> > Pawnee." Still, the movie did much better than some other movies in
>> the
>> > past.
>> >
>> >
>> > "R. Rankin" wrote:
>> >
>> > For those of you who like Kevin Costner or Floyd Red
>> > Crow Westerman and want to hear some spoken Lakota (or
>> > that mysterious language no one can identify that is
>> > supposed to be Pawnee), I see that the PAX network has
>> > the movie scheduled for tomorrow (Friday) evening at 8
>> > p.m. Central Time. I don't know about other zones, but
>> > the network is nationwide.
>> >
>> > Bob
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _____
>> >
>> > Do you Yahoo!?
>> > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>> > > e/jibjabinaugural.html>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>>  Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.
>


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Mon Jan 24 07:25:46 2005
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 08:25:46 +0100
Subject: PSL
Message-ID: <MON.24.JAN.2005.082546.0100.>

"(...) This author found that by the 1980s, Plains Sign Language was no
longer commonly used on the northern plains because forced accommodation
to the English language had led to its gradual replacement. Its decline
mirrors that of many spoken languages of the Plains Indians. In the late
twentieth century fluent sign talkers are few, but they can be found in
several communities where elders learned the language at an early age,
where traditional storytelling keeps it alive, or where deafness in a
family has preserved its practical function. Signing remains in use
among the Assiniboins, Stoneys, Blackfeet, Piegans, Bloods, Crows, and
Northern Cheyennes, in contexts involving such activities as religious
ceremonies, drumming, and storytelling. This author has also noted that,
in speaking their native language, Plains people frequently use gestures
from the sign language to accompany their speech in everyday
interactions. The revival of interest in indigenous languages, and the
efforts to preserve them, have led to a renewed interest in the Plains
Sign Language. Among the Assiniboins at Fort Belknap, and on the
Blackfoot, Crow, and Northern Cheyenne Reservations in Montana, for
example, the sign language is being incorporated into
language-maintenance programs."


(Brenda Farnell, University of Iowa)


Alfred
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From rankin at ku.edu  Mon Jan 24 15:05:49 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:05:49 -0600
Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney.
Message-ID: <MON.24.JAN.2005.090549.0600.>

> I recall an anecdote which suggested that Stoneys
> could understand the
> spoken language of the Assiniboines, but the reverse
> was not true.  I
> think it was Linda Cumberland who told a story along
> these lines, but I
> could be mistaken, or have the relationship reversed.

I was talking with John Newman at Edmonton in October
and he felt that the two major Stoney dialect clusters
might be different in this regard.  The northern group
around Alexis were more able to interact with
Assiniboine, while the group from around Morley were
less able to do so.  But I too may have the
relationship reversed -- this was a casual conversation
driving in from the airport.

> On another note, I know an older Stoney man who has
> been mute due to a
> fever he had when he was somewhere around 12-14 years
> old.  He has
> developed his own sign language which he uses to
> "speak" to his family

This has probably happened hundreds if not thousands of
times in the world.  I suppose that only in a few
instances have such languages become community or
national signing systems.  Ulrike Zeshaan in Melbourne
is doing a comparative study of various Asian, Middle
Eastern and European sign languages.

Bob


From cstelfer at ucalgary.ca  Mon Jan 24 16:41:49 2005
From: cstelfer at ucalgary.ca (cstelfer at ucalgary.ca)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:41:49 -0700
Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney.
In-Reply-To: <004001c50226$31469810$1cb5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JAN.2005.094149.0700.>

Hi,


> I was talking with John Newman at Edmonton in October
> and he felt that the two major Stoney dialect clusters
> might be different in this regard.  The northern group
> around Alexis were more able to interact with
> Assiniboine, while the group from around Morley were
> less able to do so.  But I too may have the
> relationship reversed -- this was a casual conversation
> driving in from the airport.
>

I guess I should always distinguish between South Stoney (Morley, Eden
Valley and Big Horn reserves) and North Stoney (Alexis and Paul bands).
The South Stoneys have apparently lost the glottalized set of stops and
collapsed them with the aspirated series, but the Northern group have not.
 Both groups have innovative stress patterns that differ somewhat from
Assiniboine and Dakota, and from each other.  Since the North Stoneys have
a more conservative phonemic inventory, I'm guessing that it would be
easier for them to communicate with other groups than for the South
Stoneys.  However the North Stoneys also have a more innovative stress
pattern, and that could potentially cause a lot of confusion.


> Ulrike Zeshaan in Melbourne
> is doing a comparative study of various Asian, Middle
> Eastern and European sign languages.
>

I guess cultural differences might play some kind of role in this.  In
India the typical symbol for eating is to cup one hand and move the other
hand from hand to mouth with the fingers and thumb all touching each other
(as if holding a piece of flatbread).  Here we tend to do something along
the lines of putting our hands into fists to show the use of utensils.

It just occured to me that almost all of us use our hands when talking,
only we don't have a set sign language like the plains people did.  I
always laugh at my dad, who will use his hands when talking on the phone,
which is especially funny when he's giving someone directions.  I'm sure
both linguists and anthropologists have already looked into this
phenomenon in some detail, however I'm not aware of any academic research
on the subject.

Corey.


From lcumberl at indiana.edu  Mon Jan 24 19:02:36 2005
From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:02:36 -0500
Subject: Sign Language (was Dances with Wolves)
In-Reply-To: <1193.137.186.219.181.1106525001.squirrel@137.186.219.181>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JAN.2005.140236.0500.>

Quoting cstelfer at ucalgary.ca:

>
> I recall an anecdote which suggested that Stoneys could understand the
> spoken language of the Assiniboines, but the reverse was not true.  I
> think it was Linda Cumberland who told a story along these lines, but I
> could be mistaken, or have the relationship reversed.
>
Correct - I observed this at the first "No Borders" gathering of all peoples who
self-designate as Nakota, which incluldes Assiniboine, Stoney, (and Yanktonai,
although there were only two or three of them there). The meeting was held in
Alberta, hosted by the Alexis band of Stoneys. There are way more (and younger)
Stoney speakers than Assiniboine, so many of them gave their talks in Stoney -
all the Assiniboine folks sat there uncomprehending, but when at last one of the
few fluent Assiniboine speakers (Wilma Kennedy) gave some comments in
Assiniboine, all the Stoney folks followed along just fine, laughing in all the
appropriate places along with the Assiniboine folks in attendance, some of whom,
though not fluent speakers, understand their language quite well.


 What is of interest is that this sign
> language bears no relationship to Plains Sign Talk as far as I know, as
> his relatives tell me that they are the only ones who can interpret for
> him.

Among sign language specialists (I used to work for the Georgia Registry of
Interpreters for the Deaf when I was in the interpreter training program in
Atlanta) this is known as a "home signs" system. It is quite common among
congenitally deaf children of hearing parents. Each home-signs system is unique,
originating independently of each other.

So it seems that perhaps, at this point in time, the Stoneys have
> lost Plains Sign Talk altogether.  Another interesting part of this story
> is that this man's wife sometimes helps him "practice" ASL, I guess
> because their ad hoc sign language isn't considered to be "real".

It's real, since it succeeds as a communications sytstem, just unique.

> However, for a person who lives in an isolated area, has several relatives
> and descendents (he's a grandfather) who can interpret for him and who has
> no contact with a deaf community, it seems completely futile to learn ASL
> -which probably explains why he has never mastered it.

Right again. Sign is a medium just as sound is, and just as combinations of
sound can generate an infinite number of spoken languages, so can gesture
generate an infinite number of signed languages. It makes no more sense for a
home-signer to learn ASL than it would for me to learn Navaho as a means to
understand Assiniboine better.

Linda


From lcumberl at indiana.edu  Mon Jan 24 19:12:48 2005
From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:12:48 -0500
Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney.
In-Reply-To: <1200.137.186.219.181.1106584909.squirrel@137.186.219.181>
Message-ID: <MON.24.JAN.2005.141248.0500.>

Quoting cstelfer at ucalgary.ca:

Corey,

Is there an analysis of stress patterns in Stoney somewhere? I've been trying to
work it out for Assiniboine and I'm finding it maddenly complex. Shaw's 1985
article in the IJAL doesn't seem to apply, so I'm wondering if there's something
published on Stoney that might shed some light on Asb.

Linda
>
> I guess I should always distinguish between South Stoney (Morley, Eden
> Valley and Big Horn reserves) and North Stoney (Alexis and Paul bands).
. . .
>  Both groups have innovative stress patterns that differ somewhat from
> Assiniboine and Dakota, and from each other.  . . .However the North Stoneys
also have a more innovative stress
> pattern, and that could potentially cause a lot of confusion.
>


From mary.marino at usask.ca  Tue Jan 25 15:09:05 2005
From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:09:05 -0600
Subject: Sign Language (was Dances with Wolves)
In-Reply-To: <1106593356.41f5464cd5d38@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.090905.0600.>

At 01:02 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote:
>Quoting cstelfer at ucalgary.ca:
>
>I observed this at the first "No Borders" gathering of all peoples who
>self-designate as Nakota, which incluldes Assiniboine, Stoney, (and Yanktonai,
>although there were only two or three of them there).

Do the Yanktonai self-designate as Nakota?   Parks and DeMallie say they do
not, in their 1992 article in Anthropological Linguistics, on the basis of
data gathered during the Sioux Dialect Survey.

Mary Marino/University of Saskatchewan

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From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Jan 25 16:01:39 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 10:01:39 -0600
Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney.
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.100139.0600.>

> I was talking with John Newman at Edmonton in October
> and he felt that the two major Stoney dialect clusters
> might be different in this regard.

> I guess I should always distinguish between South Stoney (Morley, Eden
Valley and Big Horn reserves) and North Stoney (Alexis and Paul bands).
The South Stoneys have apparently lost the glottalized set of stops and
collapsed them with the aspirated series, but the Northern group have
not.

And the South group has those neat pharyngeals. . . .

Newman said the two groups migrated to their current locations in
southern and central Alberta via very different routes, suggesting some
significant time depth between the dialects.  Gee, a coupla good
reference grammars would be a good thing!  :-)      Bob


From rwd0002 at unt.edu  Tue Jan 25 16:50:05 2005
From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 10:50:05 -0600
Subject: Sign Language (was Dances with Wolves)
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050124210044.01eadd48@sask.usask.ca>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.105005.0600.>

Quoting Marino <mary.marino at usask.ca>:

> At 01:02 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote:
> >Quoting cstelfer at ucalgary.ca:
> >
> >I observed this at the first "No Borders" gathering of all peoples who
> >self-designate as Nakota, which includes Assiniboine, Stoney, (and
> Yanktonai,
> >although there were only two or three of them there).
>
> Do the Yanktonai self-designate as Nakota?   Parks and DeMallie say they do
> not, in their 1992 article in Anthropological Linguistics, on the basis of
> data gathered during the Sioux Dialect Survey.
>
> Mary Marino/University of Saskatchewan

I've have always gone with Parks and DeMallie (1992) on that, and referred
(even in print) anyone who needed to be put on the path of truth to them.  They
do self-designate as Dakota, right?  That is why it is very confusing to refer
to the Yankton/Yanktonai as Nakota or N-dialect.  The only groups who self-
designate as Nakota (or Nakoda) are the Assiniboines and the Stoneys, right?
Correct me if I misunderstood.

Willem


From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk  Tue Jan 25 17:52:49 2005
From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:52:49 +0000
Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney.
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.175249.0000.>

-And a dictionary or two wouldn't go amiss either.  I'm especially
interested in the impact that Cree has had on Stoney.

Anthony

>>> rankin at ku.edu 25/01/2005 16:01:39 >>>
> I was talking with John Newman at Edmonton in October
> and he felt that the two major Stoney dialect clusters
> might be different in this regard.

> I guess I should always distinguish between South Stoney (Morley,
Eden
Valley and Big Horn reserves) and North Stoney (Alexis and Paul bands).

The South Stoneys have apparently lost the glottalized set of stops
and
collapsed them with the aspirated series, but the Northern group have
not.

And the South group has those neat pharyngeals. . . .

Newman said the two groups migrated to their current locations in
southern and central Alberta via very different routes, suggesting
some
significant time depth between the dialects.  Gee, a coupla good
reference grammars would be a good thing!  :-)      Bob

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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue Jan 25 18:12:55 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:12:55 -0700
Subject: Dakota Dialects (was RE: Sign Language (was Dances with Wolves))
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050124210044.01eadd48@sask.usask.ca>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.111255.0700.>

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Marino wrote:
> >I observed this at the first "No Borders" gathering of all peoples who
> >self-designate as Nakota, which incluldes Assiniboine, Stoney, (and
> >Yanktonai, although there were only two or three of them there).
>
> Do the Yanktonai self-designate as Nakota?   Parks and DeMallie say they do
> not, in their 1992 article in Anthropological Linguistics, on the basis of
> data gathered during the Sioux Dialect Survey.

I wondered about that myself.  I don't recall what Parks & DeMallie said
about self-identification, but I do recall that they found based on the
speech forms collected in the course of the Dakota Dialect Survey that
Yanktonai(s) and Yankton are closely related to each other and form a
distinct Dakota(n) dialect different from Stoney (North or South),
Assiniboine, Teton or what they called Santee-Sisseton.  In terms of some
of the traditional shibboleths Yankton-Yanktonais would be what might be
called a "D-dialect."  But, then, another important finding of the Survey
was that the whole scholarly tradition of a three-way D : L : N dialect
division is faulty - that there are essentially the five dialects (or
dialect groupings) which Parks & DeMallie term Santee-Sisseton,
Yankton-Yanktonais, Teton, Assiniboine, and Stoney.

Did they go on to discuss the origins of the 3-way analysis?  I seem to
recall from somewhere - some of it was definitely David Rood's lectures -
that much of the traditional analysis of Dakota divisions and dialects
originated among the Santee communities Ponds, Riggs, etc., worked with,
and reflects a somewhat Santee-centric analysis of things, e.g., in its
detailed depiction of Santee (and Yankton) subdivisions vs. its rather
sweeping treatment of Teton, Assiniboine, and Stoney, or in its allocation
of importance in terms of identifying Seven Fires within the Dakota
speakers (exclusive of the Hohe or Assiboine and Stoney).

The usual ethnographic catalog of Dakota divisions starts with a detailed
depiction of the Santee and Yankton from these sources.  Then the Teton
people are elaborated upon using as I recall detail obtained later from
other sources more familiar with them.  In the context of the "Seven
Fires" this is handled as internal detail, while the internal divisions of
the Santee are presented as major divisions in their own right.  The
Yanktonais are usually mentioned in these lists as an offshoot of the
Assiniboine who joined the Seven Council Fires.  As I recall there are 4
Santee Fires, and the Yankton, Yanktonais, and Teton are each counted as
additional Fires, while the Hohe groups are not considered part of the
alliance.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue Jan 25 18:27:37 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:27:37 -0700
Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney.
In-Reply-To: <s1f6877f.017@emma.edgehill.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.112737.0700.>

And while we're at it, I don't think there has ever been much work with
Yankton-Yanktonai(s), perhaps at least partly because it was perceived
historically as an accidental nomenclatural association of a "D-dialect"
group and an "N-dialect"  group.  But then there hasn't been much (any?)
recent work on Santee-Sisseton either, so perhaps the problem has been the
neglect of the more easterly dialects, or all dialects, really, but Teton,
though recently things have improved for Assiniboine and Stoney.

I used to wonder if the perception of Yanktonais as an n-dialect was
confusion due to the =na diminutive in the name IhaNkthuNwaN=na.  As I
understand it, Santee has =daN ~ =na, with =na occurring after nasal
vowels, but I wasn't sure everyone considering the problem had realized
that.  In other words, perhaps some ethnographer deduced that the
Yanktonais spoke an N-dialect from their name.  However, I have since
noticed that the special status of the Yankton was actually part of the
original reports from Santee sources.

I don't know how the allomorphy of the diminutive works in
Yankton-Yanktonais, of course.

It is odd that the diminutive has nasalized =daN in Santee(-Sisseton?) but
is oral =la in Teton, but there are a number of other enclitics that are
nasalized in Santee(-Sisseton?) but not in Teton.  I don't know what the
nasality of the diminutive might be in Assiniboine or Stoney.  I mention
this from time to time hoping to discover someone who has thought of an
explanation for some of the conundrums!

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Anthony Grant wrote:
> -And a dictionary or two wouldn't go amiss either.  I'm especially
> interested in the impact that Cree has had on Stoney.


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Tue Jan 25 18:42:35 2005
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:42:35 -0600
Subject: Dakota Dialects (was RE: Sign Language (was Dances with
 Wolves))
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0501251041570.16376@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.124235.0600.>

Koontz John E wrote:
>>>I observed this at the first "No Borders" gathering of all peoples who
>>>self-designate as Nakota, which incluldes Assiniboine, Stoney, (and
>>>Yanktonai, although there were only two or three of them there).
>>
>>Do the Yanktonai self-designate as Nakota?   Parks and DeMallie say they do
>>not, in their 1992 article in Anthropological Linguistics, on the basis of
>>data gathered during the Sioux Dialect Survey.
>
>
> I wondered about that myself.  I don't recall what Parks & DeMallie said
> about self-identification

"the Yanktons and Yanktonais are the least well known of the Sioux
groups. When their speech was recorded in the nineteenth century, they
called themselves dak'ota..; there is no evidence that they ever called
themselves nak'ota." (Anthropol. Ling. 34.242)

Alan


From lcumberl at indiana.edu  Tue Jan 25 20:52:26 2005
From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 15:52:26 -0500
Subject: Sign Language (was Dances with Wolves)
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050124210044.01eadd48@sask.usask.ca>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.155226.0500.>

Glad you pointed that out - I should have qualified that comment. The few who
were at the gathering claimed to belong to the "larger Nakota nation" based on
their perception of lots of 'n's in their language. The folks who organized the
conference didn't have any particular criteria for attendance beyond people's
own perceptions. I which now that I had asked more questions at the time but
there was a lot going on. I don't think the perception of these few presents any
challenge to the statment in Parks and DeMallie 1992.

-L

Quoting Marino <mary.marino at usask.ca>:

> At 01:02 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote:
> >Quoting cstelfer at ucalgary.ca:
> >
> >I observed this at the first "No Borders" gathering of all peoples who
> >self-designate as Nakota, which incluldes Assiniboine, Stoney, (and
> Yanktonai,
> >although there were only two or three of them there).
>
> Do the Yanktonai self-designate as Nakota?   Parks and DeMallie say they do
> not, in their 1992 article in Anthropological Linguistics, on the basis of
> data gathered during the Sioux Dialect Survey.
>
> Mary Marino/University of Saskatchewan
>
>


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue Jan 25 21:15:27 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:15:27 -0700
Subject: Dakota Dialects (was RE: Sign Language (was Dances with
 Wolves))
In-Reply-To: <41F6931B.8040107@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.141527.0700.>

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> Koontz John E wrote:
> > I wondered about that myself.  I don't recall what Parks & DeMallie said
> > about self-identification
>
> "the Yanktons and Yanktonais are the least well known of the Sioux
> groups. When their speech was recorded in the nineteenth century, they
> called themselves dak'ota..; there is no evidence that they ever called
> themselves nak'ota." (Anthropol. Ling. 34.242)

In regard to the last comment, it occurs to me that whether the Yanktons
and Yanktonais ever called themselves nakhota, the evidence of the Dakota
Dialect Survey is fairly definitive that if that had they would have
pronounced it dakhota.

So, I conclude that Parks & DeMallie don't say anything about
self-identification as such?  In that case, of course, it would be
potentially possible for the Yanktonais or their neighbors to make an
identification about their connections not correlated with actual
Yanktonais speech practices.  The world is full of people who perceive
their dialect or someone else's through political lenses.  Barbed wire is
a sort of isogloss, I guess!

Another possibility would be that the Yanktonais originally spoke a
dialect related to Assiniboine, but have adopted or assimilated to Yankton
since then.  Unless there were relict forms or very early evidence there
would be nothing to support this but ethnographic report.  However, this
is obviously a possibility and I think something like this might explain
another ethnographic anomaly, which is why the various historical Hidatsa
villages had stories depicting themselves originating in various disjoint
locations - in effect, some originating along the Missouri and others at
some distance to the east of it.  This would be surprising if they had all
spoken ancestral (Crow-)Hidatsa at the times recounted, but plausible if
the (early Crow-)Hidatsa language were acquired subsequently in one case
or the other.  The simplest hypothesis in the context is that Crow-Hidatsa
came in with the easterners while the Missouri group originally spoke an
early form of Mandan.  Subsequent linguistic and ethnic realignments left
all of the later Hidatsa (and Crow) ancestral groups speaking acestral
Crow-Hidatsa, but retaining separate origin stories.  Some Mandan groups
remained as well, producing the historically attested situation.

Notice that if you adopt this sort of logic you have to account for Crow
in the same breath.  It makes no more sense to derive the language Hidatsa
from two different geographical points than it does to derive Crow and
Hidatsa from two different points.  It's true that one could imagine
dividing a population of speakers of ancestral Crow-Hidatsa into several
scattered pieces and having Crow and Hidatsa develop from two of them
(though not likely Hidatsa and more Hidatsa).  However, in that case there
is still an original point of unity somewhere in the background and the
origin stories (or archaeological hypotheses) are
both true only if the earlier period is not included in the story.

Given the need to account for the Crow and Hidatsa in the same breath it
seems easier to assume Crow and Hidatsa are always part of the same
history until known to be different, and since the Crow seem to lack
definitive stories about early history, it seems simplest to go with the
Hidatsa version.  So, it seems likely that Crow derives from Missouri
River "(Crow-)Hidatsa" villages that, like the Cheyenne, were compelled by
problems (and lured by advantages) into an entirely nomadic existance,
presumably at about the same time in the 1700s.  Since essentially all of
the Missouri River villagers were actually practicing a seasonal mixture
of settlement and nomadic hunting, switching to an entirely nomadic
existence is not a complete change, but only an exansion of one pattern
that is proving successful (nomadism with advent of horses) at the expense
of one that is not (sedentarism in the face of hostile gun-armed
neighbors).

In the same vein I suspect it makes more sense to see the Kiowa as pueblo
people who converted to a nomadic existence, than as the one Tanoan group
that has always remained wanderers.  However, the Kiowa do have a very
elaborate origin story that I don't think admits any period of pueblo
existence.


From mary.marino at usask.ca  Tue Jan 25 22:25:21 2005
From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:25:21 -0600
Subject: Sign Language (was Dances with Wolves)
In-Reply-To: <1106671805.41f678bdaae6e@eaglemail.unt.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.162521.0600.>

Willem -

This is certainly my understanding, but I wonder if the "fallacy of the
Nakota Sioux" has become so entrenched that it is accepted even by D and L
speakers. Mary



At 10:50 AM 1/25/2005, you wrote:
>Quoting Marino <mary.marino at usask.ca>:
>
> > At 01:02 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote:
> > >Quoting cstelfer at ucalgary.ca:
> > >
> > >I observed this at the first "No Borders" gathering of all peoples who
> > >self-designate as Nakota, which includes Assiniboine, Stoney, (and
> > Yanktonai,
> > >although there were only two or three of them there).
> >
> > Do the Yanktonai self-designate as Nakota?   Parks and DeMallie say
> they do
> > not, in their 1992 article in Anthropological Linguistics, on the basis of
> > data gathered during the Sioux Dialect Survey.
> >
> > Mary Marino/University of Saskatchewan
>
>I've have always gone with Parks and DeMallie (1992) on that, and referred
>(even in print) anyone who needed to be put on the path of truth to
>them.  They
>do self-designate as Dakota, right?  That is why it is very confusing to
>refer
>to the Yankton/Yanktonai as Nakota or N-dialect.  The only groups who self-
>designate as Nakota (or Nakoda) are the Assiniboines and the Stoneys, right?
>Correct me if I misunderstood.
>
>Willem


From cstelfer at ucalgary.ca  Tue Jan 25 22:27:05 2005
From: cstelfer at ucalgary.ca (cstelfer at ucalgary.ca)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 15:27:05 -0700
Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney.
In-Reply-To: <s1f6877f.017@emma.edgehill.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.152705.0700.>

Hi,

   There was a guy named John Laurie who worked for the government of
Alberta who wrote a small grammar and a dictionary (for South Stoney).
I've seen them in the archives of the Glenbow Museum in downtown
Calgary, and they're not bad.  They were written in the 50's and Mr.
Laurie went and lived with a family out at Morley in order to do the
work.  He was made an honourary chief at some point in his career.  I'm
going to try and get our university library to get a copy of John
Laurie's stuff (he also wrote down a lot of stories and cultural info),
because the cost for me to copy everything myself would be quite
expensive.  I believe Dr. Newman up at the U of A is using Laurie's
stuff for his work, and last summer David Rood told me he had a copy of
the dictionary.

   As far as I know, Cree has had no impact on South Stoney.  The Cree
would have had to go all the way through Blackfoot country to get to
the Stoneys, and the Blackfoot and the Cree never got along too well.
I think that South Stoney might be more likely to have influences from
Kootenay, Tsuut'ina (Sarcee) and Blackfoot before it had influences
from Cree.  There are some Cree people who live at Morley now, but that
is a recent development I believe.  I think the Blackfoot, on the other
hand, intermarried with the Cree on occasion, and there are certainly a
good number of Cree-Blackfoot marriages now.  As for the North Stoneys,
from what I've seen the vocabulary corresponds more or less perfectly
with Stoney and other Dakotan languages - I've never heard of either of
the Stoney branches being subjected to any Cree influence either
politically or linguistically.


> -And a dictionary or two wouldn't go amiss either.  I'm especially
> interested in the impact that Cree has had on Stoney.
>
> Anthony
>
>>>> rankin at ku.edu 25/01/2005 16:01:39 >>>
>> I was talking with John Newman at Edmonton in October
>> and he felt that the two major Stoney dialect clusters
>> might be different in this regard.
>
>> I guess I should always distinguish between South Stoney (Morley,
> Eden
> Valley and Big Horn reserves) and North Stoney (Alexis and Paul bands).
>
> The South Stoneys have apparently lost the glottalized set of stops
> and
> collapsed them with the aspirated series, but the Northern group have
> not.
>
> And the South group has those neat pharyngeals. . . .
>
> Newman said the two groups migrated to their current locations in
> southern and central Alberta via very different routes, suggesting
> some
> significant time depth between the dialects.  Gee, a coupla good
> reference grammars would be a good thing!  :-)      Bob
>
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From mary.marino at usask.ca  Tue Jan 25 22:56:32 2005
From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:56:32 -0600
Subject: Dakota Dialects (was RE: Sign Language (was Dances with
 Wolves))
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0501251041570.16376@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.165632.0600.>

John,

Parks and DeMallie don't actually say anything directly about Yanktonai
self-identification, but since 'dakhota'  was one of the words they
elicited and which they offer among 20-odd sets showing the differences
among the 5 dialects, their Yanktonai respondents were clearly not
self-identifying as 'nakhota'.  Maybe 'self-identification'  in a
socio-cultural context is a different sort of mental operation from
responding to a dialect survey. This is by no means impossible, and is part
of what prompted my question.

They don't actually discuss the origins of the 3-way analysis.  Riggs
identified 4 forms of Sioux and reported the h-k-g correspondence and
seemed to assign as much importance to it, as to d-n-l.

You're right about the Council Fires.  That tradition must predate the
westward expansion and socio-political elaboration of the Teton.

Mary

At 12:12 PM 1/25/2005, you wrote:
>On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Marino wrote:
> > >I observed this at the first "No Borders" gathering of all peoples who
> > >self-designate as Nakota, which incluldes Assiniboine, Stoney, (and
> > >Yanktonai, although there were only two or three of them there).
> >
> > Do the Yanktonai self-designate as Nakota?   Parks and DeMallie say they do
> > not, in their 1992 article in Anthropological Linguistics, on the basis of
> > data gathered during the Sioux Dialect Survey.
>
>I wondered about that myself.  I don't recall what Parks & DeMallie said
>about self-identification, but I do recall that they found based on the
>speech forms collected in the course of the Dakota Dialect Survey that
>Yanktonai(s) and Yankton are closely related to each other and form a
>distinct Dakota(n) dialect different from Stoney (North or South),
>Assiniboine, Teton or what they called Santee-Sisseton.  In terms of some
>of the traditional shibboleths Yankton-Yanktonais would be what might be
>called a "D-dialect."  But, then, another important finding of the Survey
>was that the whole scholarly tradition of a three-way D : L : N dialect
>division is faulty - that there are essentially the five dialects (or
>dialect groupings) which Parks & DeMallie term Santee-Sisseton,
>Yankton-Yanktonais, Teton, Assiniboine, and Stoney.
>
>Did they go on to discuss the origins of the 3-way analysis?  I seem to
>recall from somewhere - some of it was definitely David Rood's lectures -
>that much of the traditional analysis of Dakota divisions and dialects
>originated among the Santee communities Ponds, Riggs, etc., worked with,
>and reflects a somewhat Santee-centric analysis of things, e.g., in its
>detailed depiction of Santee (and Yankton) subdivisions vs. its rather
>sweeping treatment of Teton, Assiniboine, and Stoney, or in its allocation
>of importance in terms of identifying Seven Fires within the Dakota
>speakers (exclusive of the Hohe or Assiboine and Stoney).
>
>The usual ethnographic catalog of Dakota divisions starts with a detailed
>depiction of the Santee and Yankton from these sources.  Then the Teton
>people are elaborated upon using as I recall detail obtained later from
>other sources more familiar with them.  In the context of the "Seven
>Fires" this is handled as internal detail, while the internal divisions of
>the Santee are presented as major divisions in their own right.  The
>Yanktonais are usually mentioned in these lists as an offshoot of the
>Assiniboine who joined the Seven Council Fires.  As I recall there are 4
>Santee Fires, and the Yankton, Yanktonais, and Teton are each counted as
>additional Fires, while the Hohe groups are not considered part of the
>alliance.


From cstelfer at ucalgary.ca  Tue Jan 25 22:59:23 2005
From: cstelfer at ucalgary.ca (cstelfer at ucalgary.ca)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 15:59:23 -0700
Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney.
In-Reply-To: <1106593968.41f548b0dd2e2@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.155923.0700.>

> Quoting cstelfer at ucalgary.ca:
>
> Corey,
>
> Is there an analysis of stress patterns in Stoney somewhere? I've been
> trying to
> work it out for Assiniboine and I'm finding it maddenly complex. Shaw's
> 1985
> article in the IJAL doesn't seem to apply, so I'm wondering if there's
> something
> published on Stoney that might shed some light on Asb.
>
> Linda
>>

Well, yes, a lady named Corrie Rhyassen-Erdman wrote her MA entitled
"Stress in Stoney" in 1997.  However the title is a little misleading
since she is dealing only with North Stoney (Alexis Band), which it turns
out, has a completely different stress system from South Stoney.  I am
currently writing a paper where I am analyzing both the North and South
Stoney stress patterns in Optimality Theory, and trying to figure out how
they might have historically evolved.  In doing research for this paper I
ordered Levin (1964) through our library, but after looking at the
phonology section, it appeared to me that Assiniboine stress was identical
to that of Dakota as described and analyzed by Shaw (1980).  Is this not
correct?

    I can photocopy Rhyassen-Erdman's thesis and send it to you, but I
imagine it won't be much help since the North Stoney stress pattern is
so different from both South Stoney and Dakota.  Still, it might help
to look at it, so maybe send me your address off-list if you want me
to send it to you.

    For others interested in Stoney resources, I should list the other two
University of Calgary Master's Theses written on Stoney (these are
both based on the South Stoney dialect spoken in Morley):


Bellam, Jay E.  1975.  "Studies in Stoney phonology and morphology."

Harbeck, Warren A.  1980.  "Some agreement phenomena in Stoney."


Should send copies of all three theses to John Boyle?  If anybody's
interested in seeing these please contact me.

Corey.


From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU  Tue Jan 25 23:17:54 2005
From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:17:54 -0700
Subject: Laurie's dictionary
In-Reply-To: <1174.136.159.141.36.1106693963.squirrel@136.159.141.36>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.161754.0700.>

The Siouan Archives has a copy of Laurie's dictionary and his grammar of
Stoney; the dictionary is in electronically readable form, but in the
Siouan Archive character set (only upper case roman letters with two and
three character sequences for anything else).  It's organized
alphabetically by English within part of speech categories (i.e. all the
verbs are first, all the adverbs are last, with each category alphabetized
separately).  I haven't figured out the writing system, and it doesn't
appear that he's marked stress.  Below is a little sample from the middle
of the archive's file, the nouns; line numbers refer to what we would
nowadays call "fields" in a database.  This has not been proofread.  The
whole dictionary is in seven Word files (but it's an old version of Word
-- my computer today refused to recognize the formatting, but reproduced
the substance of the files anyway).

1 PEEN YAN HEEN
2 CRANE
3 NOUN
11 P.41
1 HOO HOO GEECH ON BEEN SKADABEE
2 CRAPS
3 NOUN
11 P.41
1 PAHOO HOO
2 CRANUIM
3 NOUN
11 P.41
1 CHAN WAK'EN
2 CRATE
3 NOUN
11 P.41
1 ATHUMBEE EN#HNEE
2 CREAM (CREAM OF MILK)
3 NOUN
11 P.41


David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Jan 26 05:00:30 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:00:30 -0700
Subject: Dakota Dialects
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050125162724.01ec9480@sask.usask.ca>
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JAN.2005.220030.0700.>

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Mary Marino wrote:
> Parks and DeMallie don't actually say anything directly about Yanktonai
> self-identification, but since 'dakhota' was one of the words they
> elicited and which they offer among 20-odd sets showing the differences
> among the 5 dialects, their Yanktonai respondents were clearly not
> self-identifying as 'nakhota'.  Maybe 'self-identification' in a
> socio-cultural context is a different sort of mental operation from
> responding to a dialect survey. This is by no means impossible, and is
> part of what prompted my question.

That's part of what I was wondering, too, along with the other issue Mary
mentioned to Cory - that perhaps identification was influenced by the
literature.  I know that folks working with Dhegiha speakers on linguistic
issues - which leads readily to culteral discussions - are widely referred
to various standards with comments like "But of course if you're
interested in that sort of thing why don't you just read (some relevant
published source)."  The impression I had was that Omaha elders like
Wilson Wolfe (deceased) were much better read in the Omaha ethnographic
literature than I was or may ever be.  So I suspect Yanktonais are quite
familiar with the report that Yanktonai(s) is an N-dialect, even though,
ironically, very little investigation of the Yanktonais language has
actually been done.  (But I may be underestimating this through ignorance
of less well known Dakotan materials.)

> They don't actually discuss the origins of the 3-way analysis.  Riggs
> identified 4 forms of Sioux and reported the h-k-g correspondence and
> seemed to assign as much importance to it, as to d-n-l.

Which would indicate that the canonicalization of the d-n-l division was
subsequent to Riggs.  I wonder what the history of it was?

> You're right about the Council Fires.  That tradition must predate the
> westward expansion and socio-political elaboration of the Teton.

I may be misunderstanding you, but I suspect that the socio-political
elaboration of the Teton is less a consequence of their westward expansion
than a post-Riggsian discovery of a pre-existing but previously unreported
situation.  There may well have been some elaboration during the
expansion.  In the same way the number of Santee divisions has probably
decreased or at least changed under the impact of American and Ojibwe
incursions.  But I think there were already several Teton divisions
comparable in nature to the Santee divisions by the time of contact.  I
think that the depiction of the seven Dakota Council Fires as we know it,
with the Teton lumped into one Fire, arises from the logic of the
presentation and from the circumstance that the presentation was of Santee
origin.

I don't know that there's any evidence at all for a formal Seven Council
Fires alliance or entity, but there was clearly some prevailing notion of
coherence arising from linguistic factors as well as others, and there
could also easily have been inter-band meetings - the colonial powers and
Americans arranged several themselves - in which the ideal of a Dakota
unity was expressed.  There is also a cultural tendency to organize things
in fours and sevens.

Given this milieu, if you asked a Santee-Sisseton speaker what the various
Dakota groups were you might well get an elaboration in terms of seven
groups.  The bulk of these would be local Santee-speaking entities - the
four Santee groups.  This nice appropriate number of local entities could
then be raised to the next appropriate number, seven, by adding to it
three more distant clumps without differentiating within them groups
comparable in size to the four Santee groups.  It would be in some sense
necessary to separate the Yankton from the Yanktonais, and to suppress the
divisions of the Teton, no matter how much information was available about
Yankton and Teton internal divisions, because only this approach would
yield the necessary number three of additional groups.  Of course, it
would also be likely that less would be known about more distant groups.

If an account of historical Dakota organization included the
Yankton-Yanktonais and Teton at the same level of detail that the Seven
Council Fires account uses for the Santee there would be more than seven
Dakota groups.  Alternatively, if the account presented the Santee at the
same level that the Seven Council Fires accounts uses for the Yankton,
Yanktonais and Teton, there would be fewer than seven groups.  Either way
it would probably do violence to the rhetorical and logical sense of the
Seven Council Fires account's presenter.  Furthermore, providing less
detail about more distant and less well known groups, and more detail
about well known local groups would probably also be in line with the
presenter's sense of duty to the subject.  It presents what can honestly
be presented and elaborates where possible.

There was probably no one absolutely correct, logically coherent,
completely satisfying account of Dakota subgrouping.  A question could
always have been raised as to whether this group or that was structurally
comparable to another group, and it would always have been unclear how
many divisions and levels of divisions to use to organize the
progressively changing continuum of bands.  So, given the difficulties of
achieving a perfect but debatable analysis, a division into seven somewhat
arbitrary but convenient groups for presentational purposes can be seen as
a rhetorical strategy rather than a falsifiable assertion about Dakota
enthnology.

Returning to the issue of the ennumeration, a reasonable consideration
would be on what basis the Assiniboine-Stoney are not included, since they
are explicitly mentioned.  This is rationalized in the Seven Council Fires
account in terms of alliance (orabsence of enmity), as I recall, while in
addition an attempt is made to connect these groups with the Yanktonais,
thus placing them within the scheme.  I think, however, that these
rationalizations is just that - a rhetorical dismissal of a apparent
deviation from the presenter's thesis.  If the Assiniboine-Stoney were
recognized as a group they would be an eighth group and the logic of the
presentation would be lost, so they are not an eighth group by one logic
or another.

This assumes that the presenter had some particular logic not known to us
for distinguishing the Yankton and Yanktonais, and so was not willing to
supress that distinction to accomodate the Assiniboine-Stoney.  The logic
may simply have been that a particular seven had already been ennumerated
and it was too late to revise it when the issue of accomodating the
Assiniboine-Stoney arose.

So I think that distinguishment of seven bodies of Dakota speakers is a
consequence not of there being seven inherent and comparable bodies, but
of seven being a conventional number of elements in a catalog.  If the
first sources on Dakota subdivisions had been Teton or Yankton the catalog
canonized in the literature would still probably have included seven
groups, but the details would probably have been quite different -
presumably four groups of Tetons or Yanktons and three of more distant
others.

Incidentally I think at one point in the BAE's Synonymy Dorsey suggests
somewhat guardedly that it looks to him like it might make more sense to
divide the Santee into five groups.  But his logic was based on comparable
entities and produced in a presentational framework that more easily
accomodated revisions.

(I have to credit this general line of thinking and some of the details to
David Rood who gave a succinct version of it in class at one point in
response to a question.  He might well want to disavow all kinds of things
in this long-winded recapitulation and elaboration.)


From wablenica at mail.ru  Wed Jan 26 08:48:54 2005
From: wablenica at mail.ru (Wablenica)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:48:54 +0300
Subject: Assiniboine and Stoney.
Message-ID: <WED.26.JAN.2005.114854.0300.>

Hello everybody.

Can anybody determine the subdialect of this 1-minute Stoney dialog:
http://iyapi.net/stoney.mp3 (~280kb)

Thank you.
Constantine.


From rankin at ku.edu  Wed Jan 26 17:44:25 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R.Rankin)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:44:25 -0600
Subject: Stoney.
Message-ID: <WED.26.JAN.2005.114425.0600.>

Wow, I wouldn't have identified it as Dakotan at first.  I definitely heard
[gamma], [s^], [z^] but no [theta] or pharyngeals, so I'd guess it isn't the
southern dialect, but I am not the best person to ask.  It certainly sounds
quite different from Lakota.

Bob

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wablenica" <wablenica at mail.ru>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 2:48 AM
Subject: [Spam:0005 SpamScore] RE: Assiniboine and Stoney.


> Hello everybody.
>
> Can anybody determine the subdialect of this 1-minute Stoney dialog:
> http://iyapi.net/stoney.mp3 (~280kb)
>
> Thank you.
> Constantine.
>
>


From mary.marino at usask.ca  Thu Jan 27 15:26:27 2005
From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:26:27 -0600
Subject: Dakota Dialects
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0501251936210.2055@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.27.JAN.2005.092627.0600.>

At 11:00 PM 1/25/2005, you wrote:
>On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Mary Marino wrote:
> > Parks and DeMallie don't actually say anything directly about Yanktonai
> > self-identification, but since 'dakhota' was one of the words they
> > elicited and which they offer among 20-odd sets showing the differences
> > among the 5 dialects, their Yanktonai respondents were clearly not
> > self-identifying as 'nakhota'.  Maybe 'self-identification' in a
> > socio-cultural context is a different sort of mental operation from
> > responding to a dialect survey. This is by no means impossible, and is
> > part of what prompted my question.
>
>That's part of what I was wondering, too, along with the other issue Mary
>mentioned to Cory - that perhaps identification was influenced by the
>literature.  I know that folks working with Dhegiha speakers on linguistic
>issues - which leads readily to culteral discussions - are widely referred
>to various standards with comments like "But of course if you're
>interested in that sort of thing why don't you just read (some relevant
>published source)."  The impression I had was that Omaha elders like
>Wilson Wolfe (deceased) were much better read in the Omaha ethnographic
>literature than I was or may ever be.  So I suspect Yanktonais are quite
>familiar with the report that Yanktonai(s) is an N-dialect, even though,
>ironically, very little investigation of the Yanktonais language has
>actually been done.  (But I may be underestimating this through ignorance
>of less well known Dakotan materials.)
>
> > They don't actually discuss the origins of the 3-way analysis.  Riggs
> > identified 4 forms of Sioux and reported the h-k-g correspondence and
> > seemed to assign as much importance to it, as to d-n-l.
>
>Which would indicate that the canonicalization of the d-n-l division was
>subsequent to Riggs.  I wonder what the history of it was?

I think a part of the "history" might simply be its fatal attraction as a
linguistic/cultural cliche.  Sound correspondence reflected in the *actual*
tribal names - one fact to remember instead of two, and easily memorable at
that.  First-year textbook stuff.


> > You're right about the Council Fires.  That tradition must predate the
> > westward expansion and socio-political elaboration of the Teton.
>
>I may be misunderstanding you, but I suspect that the socio-political
>elaboration of the Teton is less a consequence of their westward expansion
>than a post-Riggsian discovery of a pre-existing but previously unreported
>situation.  There may well have been some elaboration during the
>expansion.  In the same way the number of Santee divisions has probably
>decreased or at least changed under the impact of American and Ojibwe
>incursions.  But I think there were already several Teton divisions
>comparable in nature to the Santee divisions by the time of contact.  I
>think that the depiction of the seven Dakota Council Fires as we know it,
>with the Teton lumped into one Fire, arises from the logic of the
>presentation and from the circumstance that the presentation was of Santee
>origin.
>
>I don't know that there's any evidence at all for a formal Seven Council
>Fires alliance or entity, but there was clearly some prevailing notion of
>coherence arising from linguistic factors as well as others, and there
>could also easily have been inter-band meetings - the colonial powers and
>Americans arranged several themselves - in which the ideal of a Dakota
>unity was expressed.  There is also a cultural tendency to organize things
>in fours and sevens.
>
>Given this milieu, if you asked a Santee-Sisseton speaker what the various
>Dakota groups were you might well get an elaboration in terms of seven
>groups.  The bulk of these would be local Santee-speaking entities - the
>four Santee groups.  This nice appropriate number of local entities could
>then be raised to the next appropriate number, seven, by adding to it
>three more distant clumps without differentiating within them groups
>comparable in size to the four Santee groups.  It would be in some sense
>necessary to separate the Yankton from the Yanktonais, and to suppress the
>divisions of the Teton, no matter how much information was available about
>Yankton and Teton internal divisions, because only this approach would
>yield the necessary number three of additional groups.  Of course, it
>would also be likely that less would be known about more distant groups.
>
>If an account of historical Dakota organization included the
>Yankton-Yanktonais and Teton at the same level of detail that the Seven
>Council Fires account uses for the Santee there would be more than seven
>Dakota groups.  Alternatively, if the account presented the Santee at the
>same level that the Seven Council Fires accounts uses for the Yankton,
>Yanktonais and Teton, there would be fewer than seven groups.  Either way
>it would probably do violence to the rhetorical and logical sense of the
>Seven Council Fires account's presenter.  Furthermore, providing less
>detail about more distant and less well known groups, and more detail
>about well known local groups would probably also be in line with the
>presenter's sense of duty to the subject.  It presents what can honestly
>be presented and elaborates where possible.
>
>So I think that distinguishment of seven bodies of Dakota speakers is a
>consequence not of there being seven inherent and comparable bodies, but
>of seven being a conventional number of elements in a catalog.  If the
>first sources on Dakota subdivisions had been Teton or Yankton the catalog
>canonized in the literature would still probably have included seven
>groups, but the details would probably have been quite different -
>presumably four groups of Tetons or Yanktons and three of more distant
>others.

Well, this is way more than I had in mind, at any rate.  To unpack the
essentials:  1) there is the number 7 (of whatever-it-is that we are
discussing: a culturally approved and valued number); 2) there is the
"oceti" (council fire) concept:   elastic as a socio-political term (It
could be a territorial unit, or a band, or some other division of the
people), 3) there is the information possessed by a knowledgeable leader or
elder of the group's traditions and the existing divisions of the people in
a known region.  These elements could configure in various ways to produce
all sorts of "oceti sakowin"  sets of council-fire groups.  Does this in
fact happen?  I have only ever heard of one "oceti sakowin"  list.   Is the
oceti sakowin an important concept among Teton groups?   I can only recall
reading about it in reference to Dakota groups.

My idea is simply this:  if "oceti sakowin"  were a single, invariant
tradition, it might go back to a time when the Teton, Yankton and Yanktonai
were  three *single units* - on a par- at least in cultural understanding,
with the Santee, Wahpeton, Sisseton and Mdewakanton.


From parksd at indiana.edu  Thu Jan 27 22:43:51 2005
From: parksd at indiana.edu (Parks, Douglas R.)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:43:51 -0500
Subject: Dakota Dialects
Message-ID: <THU.27.JAN.2005.174351.0500.>

John and Mary,

Allow me to clarify several points that have been under discussion.

(1)  The Yanktonai, like the Yanktons, identify themselves in English as
"Dakotas."  There is no historical evidence that the Yanktonai ever
identified themselves as nakhota, and I have never heard a contemporary
speaker (and here I mean on all the five reservations where the
subdialects are spoken) self-identify using an n.  Cook in 1880-82
similarly recorded the term with an initial d.  The history of the
fallacy that Yanktonais referred to themselves with an n is given in
DeMallie's and my paper, pp. 242-48.  James Howard is the 20th century
promoter of the use of the n form, and his assertions have been accepted
by many, particularly younger people who like the "neat" classification
that it provides.

(2)  There actually has been a fair amount of work accomplished on
Yanktonai, although unpublished.  Based on work with speakers from
Standing Rock and Devil's Lake, but including the other communities,
I've compiled a reasonably extensive dictionary database, and Ray has
recorded and transcribed a modest collection of texts.  (See HNAI
13(1):98.)

(3)  For the Ochethi Shakowin, see DeMallie (HNAI 13(2):735-48).

Doug

__________________________________________________

Douglas R. Parks
Professor of Anthropology
Associate Director, American Indian Studies Research Institute
Indiana University
422 North Indiana Avenue
Bloomington, IN  47408

Phone  812.855.4123
Fax  812.855.7529  ||  E-mail  parksd at indiana.edu  ||  AISRI web site
http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Koontz John E
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 12:01 AM
To: Siouan List
Subject: Re: Dakota Dialects

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Mary Marino wrote:
> Parks and DeMallie don't actually say anything directly about
Yanktonai
> self-identification, but since 'dakhota' was one of the words they
> elicited and which they offer among 20-odd sets showing the
differences
> among the 5 dialects, their Yanktonai respondents were clearly not
> self-identifying as 'nakhota'.  Maybe 'self-identification' in a
> socio-cultural context is a different sort of mental operation from
> responding to a dialect survey. This is by no means impossible, and is
> part of what prompted my question.

That's part of what I was wondering, too, along with the other issue
Mary
mentioned to Cory - that perhaps identification was influenced by the
literature.  I know that folks working with Dhegiha speakers on
linguistic
issues - which leads readily to culteral discussions - are widely
referred
to various standards with comments like "But of course if you're
interested in that sort of thing why don't you just read (some relevant
published source)."  The impression I had was that Omaha elders like
Wilson Wolfe (deceased) were much better read in the Omaha ethnographic
literature than I was or may ever be.  So I suspect Yanktonais are quite
familiar with the report that Yanktonai(s) is an N-dialect, even though,
ironically, very little investigation of the Yanktonais language has
actually been done.  (But I may be underestimating this through
ignorance
of less well known Dakotan materials.)

> They don't actually discuss the origins of the 3-way analysis.  Riggs
> identified 4 forms of Sioux and reported the h-k-g correspondence and
> seemed to assign as much importance to it, as to d-n-l.

Which would indicate that the canonicalization of the d-n-l division was
subsequent to Riggs.  I wonder what the history of it was?

> You're right about the Council Fires.  That tradition must predate the
> westward expansion and socio-political elaboration of the Teton.

I may be misunderstanding you, but I suspect that the socio-political
elaboration of the Teton is less a consequence of their westward
expansion
than a post-Riggsian discovery of a pre-existing but previously
unreported
situation.  There may well have been some elaboration during the
expansion.  In the same way the number of Santee divisions has probably
decreased or at least changed under the impact of American and Ojibwe
incursions.  But I think there were already several Teton divisions
comparable in nature to the Santee divisions by the time of contact.  I
think that the depiction of the seven Dakota Council Fires as we know
it,
with the Teton lumped into one Fire, arises from the logic of the
presentation and from the circumstance that the presentation was of
Santee
origin.

I don't know that there's any evidence at all for a formal Seven Council
Fires alliance or entity, but there was clearly some prevailing notion
of
coherence arising from linguistic factors as well as others, and there
could also easily have been inter-band meetings - the colonial powers
and
Americans arranged several themselves - in which the ideal of a Dakota
unity was expressed.  There is also a cultural tendency to organize
things
in fours and sevens.

Given this milieu, if you asked a Santee-Sisseton speaker what the
various
Dakota groups were you might well get an elaboration in terms of seven
groups.  The bulk of these would be local Santee-speaking entities - the
four Santee groups.  This nice appropriate number of local entities
could
then be raised to the next appropriate number, seven, by adding to it
three more distant clumps without differentiating within them groups
comparable in size to the four Santee groups.  It would be in some sense
necessary to separate the Yankton from the Yanktonais, and to suppress
the
divisions of the Teton, no matter how much information was available
about
Yankton and Teton internal divisions, because only this approach would
yield the necessary number three of additional groups.  Of course, it
would also be likely that less would be known about more distant groups.

If an account of historical Dakota organization included the
Yankton-Yanktonais and Teton at the same level of detail that the Seven
Council Fires account uses for the Santee there would be more than seven
Dakota groups.  Alternatively, if the account presented the Santee at
the
same level that the Seven Council Fires accounts uses for the Yankton,
Yanktonais and Teton, there would be fewer than seven groups.  Either
way
it would probably do violence to the rhetorical and logical sense of the
Seven Council Fires account's presenter.  Furthermore, providing less
detail about more distant and less well known groups, and more detail
about well known local groups would probably also be in line with the
presenter's sense of duty to the subject.  It presents what can honestly
be presented and elaborates where possible.

There was probably no one absolutely correct, logically coherent,
completely satisfying account of Dakota subgrouping.  A question could
always have been raised as to whether this group or that was
structurally
comparable to another group, and it would always have been unclear how
many divisions and levels of divisions to use to organize the
progressively changing continuum of bands.  So, given the difficulties
of
achieving a perfect but debatable analysis, a division into seven
somewhat
arbitrary but convenient groups for presentational purposes can be seen
as
a rhetorical strategy rather than a falsifiable assertion about Dakota
enthnology.

Returning to the issue of the ennumeration, a reasonable consideration
would be on what basis the Assiniboine-Stoney are not included, since
they
are explicitly mentioned.  This is rationalized in the Seven Council
Fires
account in terms of alliance (orabsence of enmity), as I recall, while
in
addition an attempt is made to connect these groups with the Yanktonais,
thus placing them within the scheme.  I think, however, that these
rationalizations is just that - a rhetorical dismissal of a apparent
deviation from the presenter's thesis.  If the Assiniboine-Stoney were
recognized as a group they would be an eighth group and the logic of the
presentation would be lost, so they are not an eighth group by one logic
or another.

This assumes that the presenter had some particular logic not known to
us
for distinguishing the Yankton and Yanktonais, and so was not willing to
supress that distinction to accomodate the Assiniboine-Stoney.  The
logic
may simply have been that a particular seven had already been
ennumerated
and it was too late to revise it when the issue of accomodating the
Assiniboine-Stoney arose.

So I think that distinguishment of seven bodies of Dakota speakers is a
consequence not of there being seven inherent and comparable bodies, but
of seven being a conventional number of elements in a catalog.  If the
first sources on Dakota subdivisions had been Teton or Yankton the
catalog
canonized in the literature would still probably have included seven
groups, but the details would probably have been quite different -
presumably four groups of Tetons or Yanktons and three of more distant
others.

Incidentally I think at one point in the BAE's Synonymy Dorsey suggests
somewhat guardedly that it looks to him like it might make more sense to
divide the Santee into five groups.  But his logic was based on
comparable
entities and produced in a presentational framework that more easily
accomodated revisions.

(I have to credit this general line of thinking and some of the details
to
David Rood who gave a succinct version of it in class at one point in
response to a question.  He might well want to disavow all kinds of
things
in this long-winded recapitulation and elaboration.)


From wablenica at mail.ru  Fri Jan 28 09:14:12 2005
From: wablenica at mail.ru (Wablenica)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:14:12 +0300
Subject: Non-Dakotan Siouan speech online
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JAN.2005.121412.0300.>

Hello everybody.
I wonder are there the speech samples of Non-Dakotan Siouan languages online?

Thank you
Constantine.


From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de  Fri Jan 28 16:08:39 2005
From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Heike_B=F6deker?=)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:08:39 +0100
Subject: synchronization of gesture and speech (was: Sign Language)
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050125162158.01e96738@sask.usask.ca>
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JAN.2005.170839.0100.>

There's quite impressive work on synchronization of gesture (not
necessarily coincident with sign language even where one would be
available, too) and speech by John Haviland and David Wilkins for
some Australian and Mesoamerican languages (IIRC also in comparison
to Dutch). Alas I can't offer a comprehensive bibliography right
away.

When I did fieldwork people did stress the importance of accompanying
speech by appropriate gestures. The problem is, alas, they didn't
specify what was to be considered appropriate. And neither had I read
the abovementioned authors at that time, so I didn't know even where
to start to look :-((((

All the best,

Heike


From jmcbride at kawnation.com  Fri Jan 28 17:04:05 2005
From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:04:05 -0600
Subject: synchronization of gesture and speech (was: Sign Language)
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JAN.2005.110405.0600.>

> When I did fieldwork people did stress the importance of accompanying
> speech by appropriate gestures. The problem is, alas, they didn't
> specify what was to be considered appropriate. And neither had I read
> the abovementioned authors at that time, so I didn't know even where
> to start to look :-((((

I've always wondered how about the word order in Plains Sign Language,
especially in syncronizing signs with speech.  How many of the tribes that
used the signs were typologically SOV languages?  For that matter, how many
recognized "grammars" of PSL once existed?  And if there were more than a
few varieties, was it just a more or less common lexicon that leads to its
consideration as a single language?  Is there any other info on this out
there?