From goodtracks at gbronline.com  Fri Jul  1 03:24:04 2005
From: goodtracks at gbronline.com (Jimm GoodTracks)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 22:24:04 -0500
Subject: OSAGE OTHOGRAPHY
Message-ID: <THU.30.JUN.2005.222404.0500.>

It is said that...
"Mogre Lookout has really been pushing to have Wahzhazhe spoken under the 
dance arbor.  He is also teaching the advanced language class there in 
Pawhuska.  Kathryn Red Corn's nephew Tallee Red Corn is rapidly becoming one 
of the most fluent speakers in the tribe.  Sounds like the language program 
is going well and there is talk of adding classes in Hominy and Gray Horse 
Districts."

Beyond this much, I will have to wait on further information.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Justin McBride" <jmcbride at kawnation.com>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: OSAGE OTHOGRAPHY


>> HVvBV  Hu-a (fish symb)  THV-HV
>> ZHO-KU-La(fish)  Av-KV-TSE  Av-KU-Tha (fish).
>> Hanba hua thaha    (lit:  Day coming when)
>> Zhukinla angatsi ankatha/o   (lit:  Together we go we go forth)
>
> Wow.  That's news to me, too!  It must be a very new development.  When I 
> visited their classes a few months ago, they were just using a Roman 
> alphabet with no special characters other than a hyphen and an apostrophe 
> (well, and maybe a superscript n, but I can't remember).  I seem to recall 
> that they were using all caps.  I don't think they distinguished between x 
> and <gamma>. Nor did they distinguish between preaspirate hp, ht, hk, and 
> hc and their plain unaspirated counterparts p, t, k, and c in the 
> orthography, thus blurring the contrast between 1st person and 3rd person 
> forms of certain verbs.  For example, TON-PE stood for both htoNpe 'I see' 
> and toNpe 's/he sees.'  From what I saw, that confused some of the 
> students.  But otherwise, most of the class appeared to understand the 
> writing system and could easily read it.  I wonder what prompted the 
> change...
>
> -jm
>
>
> 


From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  1 16:36:27 2005
From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:36:27 -0700
Subject: OSAGE OTHOGRAPHY
In-Reply-To: <005001c57def$aff9b300$74660945@JIMM>
Message-ID: <FRI.1.JUL.2005.093627.0700.>

This is really good news about the Osage revitalization program!  I hope things keep moving in the right direction, for Osage as well as the many other languages starting revitalization programs!
 
Dave
 

Jimm GoodTracks <goodtracks at gbronline.com> wrote:
It is said that...
"Mogre Lookout has really been pushing to have Wahzhazhe spoken under the 
dance arbor. He is also teaching the advanced language class there in 
Pawhuska. Kathryn Red Corn's nephew Tallee Red Corn is rapidly becoming one 
of the most fluent speakers in the tribe. Sounds like the language program 
is going well and there is talk of adding classes in Hominy and Gray Horse 
Districts."

Beyond this much, I will have to wait on further information.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Justin McBride" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: OSAGE OTHOGRAPHY


>> HVvBV Hu-a (fish symb) THV-HV
>> ZHO-KU-La(fish) Av-KV-TSE Av-KU-Tha (fish).
>> Hanba hua thaha (lit: Day coming when)
>> Zhukinla angatsi ankatha/o (lit: Together we go we go forth)
>
> Wow. That's news to me, too! It must be a very new development. When I 
> visited their classes a few months ago, they were just using a Roman 
> alphabet with no special characters other than a hyphen and an apostrophe 
> (well, and maybe a superscript n, but I can't remember). I seem to recall 
> that they were using all caps. I don't think they distinguished between x 
> and . Nor did they distinguish between preaspirate hp, ht, hk, and 
> hc and their plain unaspirated counterparts p, t, k, and c in the 
> orthography, thus blurring the contrast between 1st person and 3rd person 
> forms of certain verbs. For example, TON-PE stood for both htoNpe 'I see' 
> and toNpe 's/he sees.' From what I saw, that confused some of the 
> students. But otherwise, most of the class appeared to understand the 
> writing system and could easily read it. I wonder what prompted the 
> change...
>
> -jm
>
>
> 



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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu Jul  7 06:14:01 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 00:14:01 -0600
Subject: Pa Snuta (Eggheads?)
Message-ID: <THU.7.JUL.2005.001401.0600.>

John Ludwickson drew my attention to the Omaha-Ponca legend of the pa
snuta.  Dorsey, in a letter to the M. Anatole Bamps, published in the
Proceedings of the International Congress of Americanists, 3rd Session,
1879, pp. 760-766, mentions them, pp. 760-761.  (There's a lot else of
interest in this letter, by the way.  It's more or less "email from JOD.")

"The Omaha say that there was once a people in this land before the
Indians came.  They were the "Pa" Snuta, a tall race, with immense heads
(oblong).  They were very wise.  They had guns.  They knew not the Great
Spirit; that is, they used to say, "We will do as we please. The Great
Spirit has nothing to do with us."  So the Great Spirit at last sent a
flood upon them to punish them; and all died.  Afterwards the Indians were
made, and dwelt in this land."

I'm certain I've seen another reference to them, in Howard or maybe
Fletcher & LaFlesche, but I can't seem to relocate it.  In any event, I
suspect there are others on the list better qualified to comment on the pa
snuta as legendary beings and on parallels to them among neighboring
people.

I've been thinking more about the etymology of pa snuta myself.  I think
the term must be ppa' snu'tta - pa' snu'ta in the practical orthographies.
Dorsey essentially glosses this in repeating the description "(they had)
immense heads (oblong)," which he presumably had from his source(s).  That
is, ppa' 'head' and snu'tta 'immense (oblong)'.

Snu'tta doesn't occur in the Dorsey texts, or Swetland's UmoNhoN Iye of
Elizabeth Stabler.  It's easy to think it might have something to do with
snede' 'long', but that would be an unusual pattern of derivation.

Looking further afield I have found the following in Bob Rankin's
unpublished lexicons:

Ks sto'sta 'oval, elliptical (JOD), pear shaped (MR)'
Qu stokka' 'oblong, elliptical'

In the Quapaw entry Bob Rankin includes one of Dorsey's comparisons, which
is Omaha sno'kka (or snu'kka in the more familiar approach to Omaha-Ponca
vowels).  The Dorsey texts contain only a small art of the OP vocabulary
collected by Dorsey.  There seems to have been a lot just plain word
elicitation and hearing and remembering, too.

Os "snu'-k.a" 'oval, egg-shaped'

This is a LaFlesche form, which as we have discussed before, means
Omaha-Ponca influenced, and I suspect in Osage guise it would be something
more like *sto'hka.

Further afield, in Miner's Winnebago Field Lexicon:

Wi soro'c^ 'narrow and high, like pottery shape; be cone-shaped'

In the context, Ken Miner cites a derivative (ks^ee)so'roc^ 'pear', i.e.,
'elliptical (apple)'.  Elsewhere he lists c^iiso'roc^ 'a tripod house'.

In Jimm Good Tracks Ioway-Otoe-Missouria list I found:

IO t^ro'ka 'egg-shaped, elliptical' (using t^ for theta)

There's a bit bit of variation here in the form of the stems.

*sro'h-ka is suggested by Qu stokka', OP snu'kka, and Osage sto'hka.
Probably also IO t^ro'ka, though I'd expect something like (?) t^rohka or
(?) t^rokha in that case.  A PMV form like *srok-ka would also be a
possibility, but I don't see any evidence for it elsewhere.

The Kaw form sto'sta may be a reduplication *sro'(h)-sro(h).

*srot-ka would explain OP snu'tta.

This is because PMV *tk > PDh *tt.   This is illustrated in forms like OP
z^a'tta 'forked' < *z^a't-ka vs. Te z^a'ta 'forked', Wi -z^ac^ 'spread out
at top like a bucket' < *z^a't-(a). For a more organic instance of *tk, or
at least one more consistantly formed, consider OP we'tta 'egg', Te i'tka,
Wi hiic^ge', all from *i'tka (or maybe *i't-ka).  OP has a prefixed *wa-,
a frequent characteristic of unpossessed forms in Dhegiha.

Note that -ka is being used above as a formant for stative verbs, although
it also appears potentially in *i'tka 'egg' as a noun formant.  (There are
clear examples of *-ka as a noun formant, but let's not go down that side
path.)

*sro't- (maybe actually *sro'te or *sro'ta) is suggested by Winnebago
soroc^ and underlies *sro't-ka, too, of course.

This leads to a possible Dakota congate, which is slo'ta ~ slol', as in

Te slol...ya' 'to know, have knowledge of anything or person', a causative
formed from the dependent stem slol-.

Buechel also lists

slo'ta, apparently extracted from ie'slota 'one who tells the truth,
perhaps'.  I believe this turn of phrase means not that the person may or
may not be telling the truth, but that Buechel is not sure whether 'one
who tells the truth' is a satisfactory gloss.  I'd suggest 'one who speaks
knowledgably' as a possibility.

Both these forms are consistent with *srot-, the root suggested in the
Winnebago, and in OP snu'tta < *sro't-ka in ppa' snu'tta.

This explanation of slolya' may seem a bit odd.  It's not the first
attested instance of 'egg-headed' as an adjective for 'intelligent' (or
perhaps 'over-demonstrative of intelligence') in the world, but it might
seem to be a bit rendolent of European culture. How reasonable it is in
the context might depend on whether the head is seen as the seat of
intelligence in Siouan cultures and I don't know if this is true or not.
However, Dorsey's account of the ppa' snu'tta is also consistant with a
gloss of 'smart people' or 'people too smart for their own good'.  Since
snu'tta is so far attested only in this phrase, one might imagine the
whole phrase to be adapted from some other language, perhaps from a form
like (Dakotan) *pha slotka, though I don't know of any actual attestation
of such a form.


John E. Koontz
http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Jul  7 14:45:40 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:45:40 -0500
Subject: [Spam:0008 SpamScore] Pa Snuta (Eggheads?)
Message-ID: <THU.7.JUL.2005.094540.0500.>

If you check under 'pecan' in Quapaw you'll find the more expected cognate, /stotta/.  It is the 'oblong nut'.  Kansa uses /sceje/ in a similar compound, even tho' it has a stative verb /stotta/.  I wasn't aware that Quapaw apparently had doublets (with tt/kk) from older -tk-.  That's a nice find.
 
Our server is still awarding John a "spam score" of eight stars.  :-)
 
Bob
 

	-----Original Message----- 
	From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Koontz John E 
	Sent: Thu 7/7/2005 1:14 AM 
	To: Siouan List 
	Cc: John Ludwickson 
	Subject: [Spam:0008 SpamScore] Pa Snuta (Eggheads?)
	
	

	John Ludwickson drew my attention to the Omaha-Ponca legend of the pa
	snuta.  Dorsey, in a letter to the M. Anatole Bamps, published in the
	Proceedings of the International Congress of Americanists, 3rd Session,
	1879, pp. 760-766, mentions them, pp. 760-761.  (There's a lot else of
	interest in this letter, by the way.  It's more or less "email from JOD.")
	
	"The Omaha say that there was once a people in this land before the
	Indians came.  They were the "Pa" Snuta, a tall race, with immense heads
	(oblong).  They were very wise.  They had guns.  They knew not the Great
	Spirit; that is, they used to say, "We will do as we please. The Great
	Spirit has nothing to do with us."  So the Great Spirit at last sent a
	flood upon them to punish them; and all died.  Afterwards the Indians were
	made, and dwelt in this land."
	
	I'm certain I've seen another reference to them, in Howard or maybe
	Fletcher & LaFlesche, but I can't seem to relocate it.  In any event, I
	suspect there are others on the list better qualified to comment on the pa
	snuta as legendary beings and on parallels to them among neighboring
	people.
	
	I've been thinking more about the etymology of pa snuta myself.  I think
	the term must be ppa' snu'tta - pa' snu'ta in the practical orthographies.
	Dorsey essentially glosses this in repeating the description "(they had)
	immense heads (oblong)," which he presumably had from his source(s).  That
	is, ppa' 'head' and snu'tta 'immense (oblong)'.
	
	Snu'tta doesn't occur in the Dorsey texts, or Swetland's UmoNhoN Iye of
	Elizabeth Stabler.  It's easy to think it might have something to do with
	snede' 'long', but that would be an unusual pattern of derivation.
	
	Looking further afield I have found the following in Bob Rankin's
	unpublished lexicons:
	
	Ks sto'sta 'oval, elliptical (JOD), pear shaped (MR)'
	Qu stokka' 'oblong, elliptical'
	
	In the Quapaw entry Bob Rankin includes one of Dorsey's comparisons, which
	is Omaha sno'kka (or snu'kka in the more familiar approach to Omaha-Ponca
	vowels).  The Dorsey texts contain only a small art of the OP vocabulary
	collected by Dorsey.  There seems to have been a lot just plain word
	elicitation and hearing and remembering, too.
	
	Os "snu'-k.a" 'oval, egg-shaped'
	
	This is a LaFlesche form, which as we have discussed before, means
	Omaha-Ponca influenced, and I suspect in Osage guise it would be something
	more like *sto'hka.
	
	Further afield, in Miner's Winnebago Field Lexicon:
	
	Wi soro'c^ 'narrow and high, like pottery shape; be cone-shaped'
	
	In the context, Ken Miner cites a derivative (ks^ee)so'roc^ 'pear', i.e.,
	'elliptical (apple)'.  Elsewhere he lists c^iiso'roc^ 'a tripod house'.
	
	In Jimm Good Tracks Ioway-Otoe-Missouria list I found:
	
	IO t^ro'ka 'egg-shaped, elliptical' (using t^ for theta)
	
	There's a bit bit of variation here in the form of the stems.
	
	*sro'h-ka is suggested by Qu stokka', OP snu'kka, and Osage sto'hka.
	Probably also IO t^ro'ka, though I'd expect something like (?) t^rohka or
	(?) t^rokha in that case.  A PMV form like *srok-ka would also be a
	possibility, but I don't see any evidence for it elsewhere.
	
	The Kaw form sto'sta may be a reduplication *sro'(h)-sro(h).
	
	*srot-ka would explain OP snu'tta.
	
	This is because PMV *tk > PDh *tt.   This is illustrated in forms like OP
	z^a'tta 'forked' < *z^a't-ka vs. Te z^a'ta 'forked', Wi -z^ac^ 'spread out
	at top like a bucket' < *z^a't-(a). For a more organic instance of *tk, or
	at least one more consistantly formed, consider OP we'tta 'egg', Te i'tka,
	Wi hiic^ge', all from *i'tka (or maybe *i't-ka).  OP has a prefixed *wa-,
	a frequent characteristic of unpossessed forms in Dhegiha.
	
	Note that -ka is being used above as a formant for stative verbs, although
	it also appears potentially in *i'tka 'egg' as a noun formant.  (There are
	clear examples of *-ka as a noun formant, but let's not go down that side
	path.)
	
	*sro't- (maybe actually *sro'te or *sro'ta) is suggested by Winnebago
	soroc^ and underlies *sro't-ka, too, of course.
	
	This leads to a possible Dakota congate, which is slo'ta ~ slol', as in
	
	Te slol...ya' 'to know, have knowledge of anything or person', a causative
	formed from the dependent stem slol-.
	
	Buechel also lists
	
	slo'ta, apparently extracted from ie'slota 'one who tells the truth,
	perhaps'.  I believe this turn of phrase means not that the person may or
	may not be telling the truth, but that Buechel is not sure whether 'one
	who tells the truth' is a satisfactory gloss.  I'd suggest 'one who speaks
	knowledgably' as a possibility.
	
	Both these forms are consistent with *srot-, the root suggested in the
	Winnebago, and in OP snu'tta < *sro't-ka in ppa' snu'tta.
	
	This explanation of slolya' may seem a bit odd.  It's not the first
	attested instance of 'egg-headed' as an adjective for 'intelligent' (or
	perhaps 'over-demonstrative of intelligence') in the world, but it might
	seem to be a bit rendolent of European culture. How reasonable it is in
	the context might depend on whether the head is seen as the seat of
	intelligence in Siouan cultures and I don't know if this is true or not.
	However, Dorsey's account of the ppa' snu'tta is also consistant with a
	gloss of 'smart people' or 'people too smart for their own good'.  Since
	snu'tta is so far attested only in this phrase, one might imagine the
	whole phrase to be adapted from some other language, perhaps from a form
	like (Dakotan) *pha slotka, though I don't know of any actual attestation
	of such a form.
	
	
	John E. Koontz
	http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz
	


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Jul  8 18:53:03 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:53:03 -0600
Subject: [Spam:0008 SpamScore] Pa Snuta (Eggheads?)
In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D04C533CE@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.8.JUL.2005.125303.0600.>

On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> If you check under 'pecan' in Quapaw you'll find the more expected
> cognate, /stotta/.  It is the 'oblong nut'.  Kansa uses /sceje/ in a
> similar compound, even tho' it has a stative verb /stotta/.  I wasn't
> aware that Quapaw apparently had doublets (with tt/kk) from older -tk-.
> That's a nice find.

Of course, the credit for finding and preserving the doublets is really
all Bob's and James Dorsey's.

I'd argue that stotta, stokka aren't doublets from *srotka, but reflect,
respectively, *srotka and *srohka.  In other words, this is one of the
numerous cases of alternative "root extensions" that the CSD editors
noticed and that Wes Jones reported on in MALC (and at one of the Siouan &
Caddoan meetings).  There are numerous cases of "core roots" like *CV
'sense X' appearing in different (or the same) language as reflexes of
*CVt, *CVk, *SCV, etc., with 'sense similar to X'.  I think Wes suggests
that these are relicts of earlier derivational or inflectional
morphological behavior that has disappeared leaving only these traces.

The development of *CVh-ka as CVkka in Dhegiha is in line with Bob's
analysis of the origins of *hka as a verb formant in Mississippi Valley.
I thought that the reduplicated stusta form might also suggest *sroh.

I think Bob has suggested that developments like *srotka > stotta in
Dhegiha suggest a history involving metathesis.  This explains why *tk
and *kt both become tt.

Original      *srotka   'egg-shaped'    *pre= kta  'I will go'
Metathesis    *srokta
Assimilation  *srohta                   *pre= hta

Quapaw         stotta                    pde= tta
OP             snutta                    bdhe=tta

This is paralleled by the treatment of *tk in Ioway-Otoe:

Original      *maNaNtku 'bow'
Metathesis     maNaNktu
Assimilation   maNaNhtu

IO             maNaNhdu
Wi             maNaNc^gu

I won't try to remember the IO future, because I seem to recall that it
has special complications.  Basically it, too, reflects *kt as
developments of *ht.


From rankin at ku.edu  Fri Jul  8 19:24:44 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 14:24:44 -0500
Subject: [Spam:0008 SpamScore] Pa Snuta (Eggheads?)
Message-ID: <FRI.8.JUL.2005.142444.0500.>

I think 'drink' is the easiest -tk- word to find good cognates for.

	 
	> I'd argue that stotta, stokka aren't doublets from *srotka, but reflect,
	respectively, *srotka and *srohka.  
	 
	If there is a root *sroh-ka, it should turn up in Dakotan as /slo'kha/ with the usual metathesis.  Perhaps something like /sro'khe/ in Otoe and Ioway.  I haven't checked for any of these.  
	 
	Bob


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Jul  8 23:30:18 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:30:18 -0600
Subject: Pa Snuta (Eggheads?)
In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D04C533D9@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.8.JUL.2005.173018.0600.>

On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> I think 'drink' is the easiest -tk- word to find good cognates for.

Yes - I couldn't think of the clasical example.

> If there is a root *sroh-ka, it should turn up in Dakotan as /slo'kha/
> with the usual metathesis.  Perhaps something like /sro'khe/ in Otoe and
> Ioway.  I haven't checked for any of these.

Well, I'm not too worried if it appears only in one or two languages, in
this case, since I'm not so much creating an entry in the CSD as
explaining a small list of forms, but to continue the analogy, I'd expect
*soroke' in Winnebago.  I guess Mandan would be something like *s^oro ~
*s^orohe.

It's a pity that only -ka binds tightly enough to a stem to form a
preaspirate with a stem final h.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sat Jul  9 20:27:52 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 14:27:52 -0600
Subject: Pa Snuta (Eggheads?)
In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D04C533CE@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.9.JUL.2005.142752.0600.>

On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote:

> If you check under 'pecan' in Quapaw you'll find the more expected
> cognate, /stotta/.  It is the 'oblong nut'.  Kansa uses /sceje/ in a
> similar compound, even tho' it has a stative verb /stotta/.  I wasn't
> aware that Quapaw apparently had doublets (with tt/kk) from older -tk-.
> That's a nice find.

I looked further on Bob's suggestions and found

Qu sto'tta     in wata'stotta 'pecan'

I also found for Kaw

Ks sto'sta     in wada'stosta wac^hiN'
                  'a comic dance performed wearing masks'

We already had sto'sta 'oval, elliptical (JOD), pear shaped (MR)', but the
usual term for pecan is something else.  This does seem to be 'pecan
dance' in some sense.

Following Bob's hint, I also found previous unnoitced (by me)

Os sto'sta     in wata'stosta 'pecan'

I looked for additional *sroh-ka forms without any luck.

I did find *srot-ka in Biloxi

Bi "sditka', sdutka" 'be elliptical'

I checked in Mandan without finding anything, but I did find these Crow
and Hidatsa forms that may be relevant.  Fo rthe sense 'narrow', see Wi
soro'c^ 'narrow hand high, like pottery shape; be cone-shaped'.

Cr chilo'ochi 'slender, slim'
Cr chilu'chi 'narrow (strip)'
Cr chua' 'narrow'

Hi "tsua" 'narrow'   (and "tsua(dsi)" 'narrowish')

The first two forms, which Randy in his list suggested might be doublets,
seem to reflect *srot(e).  The second might be a contraction of *sroh(a),
i.e., *sroha > PCH *ciro(h)a, ciru(h)a > cua.  I'm not  sure if there's
any parallel for loss of -ir- in Dorsey's Law clusters.

However, there was also this pair:

Cr chiwu'sa 'brains'
Hi "tsuata" 'brains'

These seem to suggest PCH *ciwuata 'brains'.  However, I'm not sure if
there is any connection to be drawn to 'narrow', but perhaps the
similarity here might help explain Dakotan (ie)slota, slol(ya).

Incidentally, I've located an additional 'know' form in Dakotan, a Santee
form in Riggs.

Sa sdoc^a' 'to know'  (also sdonya')

I'm not sure how to account for c^ (c^h?) here.  Maybe this is really
sdotya', a variant of sdonya'?

Since Bob Rankin suggested *ratkaN 'to drink' as a tk set:

Da yatkAN'

OP dhattaN' (rest of Dhegiha analogous)

IO rahtaN'  (or perhaps it should be rahdaN' notationally)

Wi rac^gaN"

Apparently this set doesn't extend outside of Mississippi Valley.


From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net  Fri Jul 15 07:14:01 2005
From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 00:14:01 -0700
Subject: FW: 37e Congr=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E8s?= des Algonquinistes/37th
 Algonquian Conference
Message-ID: <FRI.15.JUL.2005.001401.0700.>

just FYI...


Dear Algonquianists,
The first call for papers has just been mailed, and we're busy planning for
October.
Please note that the conference will be held a week earlier than usual this
year, from 21-23 October.
Our website has just been updated to include accommodation information, as
well as print-friendly Registration forms and the Call for Papers:
www.umanitoba.ca/algonquian/registration.pdf
 <http://www.umanitoba.ca/algonquian/registration.pdf>
www.umanitoba.ca/algonquian/CFP2005-Eng.pdf

 <http://www.umanitoba.ca/algonquian/CFP2005-Eng.pdf> Additional information
(including the conference program) will be posted as
it becomes available at www.umanitoba.ca/algonquian
 <http://www.umanitoba.ca/algonquian> Please address any further questions
to the organizer, Marie-Odile Junker mojunker at ccs.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------



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From are2 at buffalo.edu  Wed Jul 20 21:56:57 2005
From: are2 at buffalo.edu (are2 at buffalo.edu)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:56:57 -0400
Subject: Comparative Grammar workshop
In-Reply-To: <001e01c57c1a$a490bcb0$2bb5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <WED.20.JUL.2005.175657.0400.>

Hey!  I'm just returning to email after baby delivery. I am interested 
in taking on a topic (the articles would be what first comes to mind, 
but Bob is more qualified and has already written on them) for the 
comparative wkshop.  I don't care where but some time to prepare would 
be good.
-Ardis

PS My little Siouanist info:
Beatrice Grace
7lb 14 oz
21"
6/20/05
Healthy and already 10 lbs.


Quoting "R. Rankin" <rankin at ku.edu>:

> Yes, the 2 Johns and I are keeping track.  We'd like 
> lists of suggestions for topics, I think.  It shouldn't 
> be up to us to make such decisions -- we're just trying 
> to organize what comes in.  Once we have a pretty good 
> list of topics, we can list 'em all and people can 
> volunteer then.
> 
> Speaking only for myself, I still like the idea of 
> Billings.             Bob
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> 
> > Is someone (e.g. Bob or John B.) keeping track of all 
> > the people
> > who have said they want to be included and/or 
> > volunteer to do "chapters"?
> > Yes, it could be reconstructed later, but it'd be a 
> > lot easier to do it
> > now.  Volunteer "secretary"?
> 
> 
> 


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Jul 21 19:09:21 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:09:21 -0500
Subject: Comparative Grammar workshop
Message-ID: <THU.21.JUL.2005.140921.0500.>

Congratulations, Ardis!!  

I assume people are cogitating over the list of possible topics still,
as the list has been quiet lately.  Sometime soon we ought to begin
putting the topic list together.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of are2 at buffalo.edu
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 4:57 PM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: Re: Comparative Grammar workshop


Hey!  I'm just returning to email after baby delivery. I am interested 
in taking on a topic (the articles would be what first comes to mind, 
but Bob is more qualified and has already written on them) for the 
comparative wkshop.  I don't care where but some time to prepare would 
be good.
-Ardis

PS My little Siouanist info:
Beatrice Grace
7lb 14 oz
21"
6/20/05
Healthy and already 10 lbs.


Quoting "R. Rankin" <rankin at ku.edu>:

> Yes, the 2 Johns and I are keeping track.  We'd like
> lists of suggestions for topics, I think.  It shouldn't 
> be up to us to make such decisions -- we're just trying 
> to organize what comes in.  Once we have a pretty good 
> list of topics, we can list 'em all and people can 
> volunteer then.
> 
> Speaking only for myself, I still like the idea of 
> Billings.             Bob
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> 
> > Is someone (e.g. Bob or John B.) keeping track of all
> > the people
> > who have said they want to be included and/or 
> > volunteer to do "chapters"?
> > Yes, it could be reconstructed later, but it'd be a 
> > lot easier to do it
> > now.  Volunteer "secretary"?
> 
> 
> 


From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu  Fri Jul 22 18:02:12 2005
From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:02:12 -0500
Subject: Comparative Grammar workshop
Message-ID: <FRI.22.JUL.2005.130212.0500.>

congratulations!   Now we can stop refering to baby as "it" and switch to "she".  
 
We're pretty much free the next few weeks (and very un-free after Aug. 22, when classes start).  Would love to see you & Beatrice whenever it would work for you.  Are you in Walthill?  
Catherine

>>> are2 at buffalo.edu 7/20/2005 4:56 PM >>>

 ...
Beatrice Grace
7lb 14 oz
21"
6/20/05
Healthy and already 10 lbs.


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From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu  Fri Jul 22 18:05:00 2005
From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:05:00 -0500
Subject: Comparative Grammar workshop
Message-ID: <FRI.22.JUL.2005.130500.0500.>

Sorry sorry sorry!  someday I WILL learn to check the "to" box before hitting "send".
 

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From goodtracks at gbronline.com  Fri Jul  1 03:24:04 2005
From: goodtracks at gbronline.com (Jimm GoodTracks)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 22:24:04 -0500
Subject: OSAGE OTHOGRAPHY
Message-ID: <THU.30.JUN.2005.222404.0500.>

It is said that...
"Mogre Lookout has really been pushing to have Wahzhazhe spoken under the 
dance arbor.  He is also teaching the advanced language class there in 
Pawhuska.  Kathryn Red Corn's nephew Tallee Red Corn is rapidly becoming one 
of the most fluent speakers in the tribe.  Sounds like the language program 
is going well and there is talk of adding classes in Hominy and Gray Horse 
Districts."

Beyond this much, I will have to wait on further information.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Justin McBride" <jmcbride at kawnation.com>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: OSAGE OTHOGRAPHY


>> HVvBV  Hu-a (fish symb)  THV-HV
>> ZHO-KU-La(fish)  Av-KV-TSE  Av-KU-Tha (fish).
>> Hanba hua thaha    (lit:  Day coming when)
>> Zhukinla angatsi ankatha/o   (lit:  Together we go we go forth)
>
> Wow.  That's news to me, too!  It must be a very new development.  When I 
> visited their classes a few months ago, they were just using a Roman 
> alphabet with no special characters other than a hyphen and an apostrophe 
> (well, and maybe a superscript n, but I can't remember).  I seem to recall 
> that they were using all caps.  I don't think they distinguished between x 
> and <gamma>. Nor did they distinguish between preaspirate hp, ht, hk, and 
> hc and their plain unaspirated counterparts p, t, k, and c in the 
> orthography, thus blurring the contrast between 1st person and 3rd person 
> forms of certain verbs.  For example, TON-PE stood for both htoNpe 'I see' 
> and toNpe 's/he sees.'  From what I saw, that confused some of the 
> students.  But otherwise, most of the class appeared to understand the 
> writing system and could easily read it.  I wonder what prompted the 
> change...
>
> -jm
>
>
> 


From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  1 16:36:27 2005
From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:36:27 -0700
Subject: OSAGE OTHOGRAPHY
In-Reply-To: <005001c57def$aff9b300$74660945@JIMM>
Message-ID: <FRI.1.JUL.2005.093627.0700.>

This is really good news about the Osage revitalization program!  I hope things keep moving in the right direction, for Osage as well as the many other languages starting revitalization programs!
 
Dave
 

Jimm GoodTracks <goodtracks at gbronline.com> wrote:
It is said that...
"Mogre Lookout has really been pushing to have Wahzhazhe spoken under the 
dance arbor. He is also teaching the advanced language class there in 
Pawhuska. Kathryn Red Corn's nephew Tallee Red Corn is rapidly becoming one 
of the most fluent speakers in the tribe. Sounds like the language program 
is going well and there is talk of adding classes in Hominy and Gray Horse 
Districts."

Beyond this much, I will have to wait on further information.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Justin McBride" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: OSAGE OTHOGRAPHY


>> HVvBV Hu-a (fish symb) THV-HV
>> ZHO-KU-La(fish) Av-KV-TSE Av-KU-Tha (fish).
>> Hanba hua thaha (lit: Day coming when)
>> Zhukinla angatsi ankatha/o (lit: Together we go we go forth)
>
> Wow. That's news to me, too! It must be a very new development. When I 
> visited their classes a few months ago, they were just using a Roman 
> alphabet with no special characters other than a hyphen and an apostrophe 
> (well, and maybe a superscript n, but I can't remember). I seem to recall 
> that they were using all caps. I don't think they distinguished between x 
> and . Nor did they distinguish between preaspirate hp, ht, hk, and 
> hc and their plain unaspirated counterparts p, t, k, and c in the 
> orthography, thus blurring the contrast between 1st person and 3rd person 
> forms of certain verbs. For example, TON-PE stood for both htoNpe 'I see' 
> and toNpe 's/he sees.' From what I saw, that confused some of the 
> students. But otherwise, most of the class appeared to understand the 
> writing system and could easily read it. I wonder what prompted the 
> change...
>
> -jm
>
>
> 



__________________________________________________
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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu Jul  7 06:14:01 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 00:14:01 -0600
Subject: Pa Snuta (Eggheads?)
Message-ID: <THU.7.JUL.2005.001401.0600.>

John Ludwickson drew my attention to the Omaha-Ponca legend of the pa
snuta.  Dorsey, in a letter to the M. Anatole Bamps, published in the
Proceedings of the International Congress of Americanists, 3rd Session,
1879, pp. 760-766, mentions them, pp. 760-761.  (There's a lot else of
interest in this letter, by the way.  It's more or less "email from JOD.")

"The Omaha say that there was once a people in this land before the
Indians came.  They were the "Pa" Snuta, a tall race, with immense heads
(oblong).  They were very wise.  They had guns.  They knew not the Great
Spirit; that is, they used to say, "We will do as we please. The Great
Spirit has nothing to do with us."  So the Great Spirit at last sent a
flood upon them to punish them; and all died.  Afterwards the Indians were
made, and dwelt in this land."

I'm certain I've seen another reference to them, in Howard or maybe
Fletcher & LaFlesche, but I can't seem to relocate it.  In any event, I
suspect there are others on the list better qualified to comment on the pa
snuta as legendary beings and on parallels to them among neighboring
people.

I've been thinking more about the etymology of pa snuta myself.  I think
the term must be ppa' snu'tta - pa' snu'ta in the practical orthographies.
Dorsey essentially glosses this in repeating the description "(they had)
immense heads (oblong)," which he presumably had from his source(s).  That
is, ppa' 'head' and snu'tta 'immense (oblong)'.

Snu'tta doesn't occur in the Dorsey texts, or Swetland's UmoNhoN Iye of
Elizabeth Stabler.  It's easy to think it might have something to do with
snede' 'long', but that would be an unusual pattern of derivation.

Looking further afield I have found the following in Bob Rankin's
unpublished lexicons:

Ks sto'sta 'oval, elliptical (JOD), pear shaped (MR)'
Qu stokka' 'oblong, elliptical'

In the Quapaw entry Bob Rankin includes one of Dorsey's comparisons, which
is Omaha sno'kka (or snu'kka in the more familiar approach to Omaha-Ponca
vowels).  The Dorsey texts contain only a small art of the OP vocabulary
collected by Dorsey.  There seems to have been a lot just plain word
elicitation and hearing and remembering, too.

Os "snu'-k.a" 'oval, egg-shaped'

This is a LaFlesche form, which as we have discussed before, means
Omaha-Ponca influenced, and I suspect in Osage guise it would be something
more like *sto'hka.

Further afield, in Miner's Winnebago Field Lexicon:

Wi soro'c^ 'narrow and high, like pottery shape; be cone-shaped'

In the context, Ken Miner cites a derivative (ks^ee)so'roc^ 'pear', i.e.,
'elliptical (apple)'.  Elsewhere he lists c^iiso'roc^ 'a tripod house'.

In Jimm Good Tracks Ioway-Otoe-Missouria list I found:

IO t^ro'ka 'egg-shaped, elliptical' (using t^ for theta)

There's a bit bit of variation here in the form of the stems.

*sro'h-ka is suggested by Qu stokka', OP snu'kka, and Osage sto'hka.
Probably also IO t^ro'ka, though I'd expect something like (?) t^rohka or
(?) t^rokha in that case.  A PMV form like *srok-ka would also be a
possibility, but I don't see any evidence for it elsewhere.

The Kaw form sto'sta may be a reduplication *sro'(h)-sro(h).

*srot-ka would explain OP snu'tta.

This is because PMV *tk > PDh *tt.   This is illustrated in forms like OP
z^a'tta 'forked' < *z^a't-ka vs. Te z^a'ta 'forked', Wi -z^ac^ 'spread out
at top like a bucket' < *z^a't-(a). For a more organic instance of *tk, or
at least one more consistantly formed, consider OP we'tta 'egg', Te i'tka,
Wi hiic^ge', all from *i'tka (or maybe *i't-ka).  OP has a prefixed *wa-,
a frequent characteristic of unpossessed forms in Dhegiha.

Note that -ka is being used above as a formant for stative verbs, although
it also appears potentially in *i'tka 'egg' as a noun formant.  (There are
clear examples of *-ka as a noun formant, but let's not go down that side
path.)

*sro't- (maybe actually *sro'te or *sro'ta) is suggested by Winnebago
soroc^ and underlies *sro't-ka, too, of course.

This leads to a possible Dakota congate, which is slo'ta ~ slol', as in

Te slol...ya' 'to know, have knowledge of anything or person', a causative
formed from the dependent stem slol-.

Buechel also lists

slo'ta, apparently extracted from ie'slota 'one who tells the truth,
perhaps'.  I believe this turn of phrase means not that the person may or
may not be telling the truth, but that Buechel is not sure whether 'one
who tells the truth' is a satisfactory gloss.  I'd suggest 'one who speaks
knowledgably' as a possibility.

Both these forms are consistent with *srot-, the root suggested in the
Winnebago, and in OP snu'tta < *sro't-ka in ppa' snu'tta.

This explanation of slolya' may seem a bit odd.  It's not the first
attested instance of 'egg-headed' as an adjective for 'intelligent' (or
perhaps 'over-demonstrative of intelligence') in the world, but it might
seem to be a bit rendolent of European culture. How reasonable it is in
the context might depend on whether the head is seen as the seat of
intelligence in Siouan cultures and I don't know if this is true or not.
However, Dorsey's account of the ppa' snu'tta is also consistant with a
gloss of 'smart people' or 'people too smart for their own good'.  Since
snu'tta is so far attested only in this phrase, one might imagine the
whole phrase to be adapted from some other language, perhaps from a form
like (Dakotan) *pha slotka, though I don't know of any actual attestation
of such a form.


John E. Koontz
http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Jul  7 14:45:40 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:45:40 -0500
Subject: [Spam:0008 SpamScore] Pa Snuta (Eggheads?)
Message-ID: <THU.7.JUL.2005.094540.0500.>

If you check under 'pecan' in Quapaw you'll find the more expected cognate, /stotta/.  It is the 'oblong nut'.  Kansa uses /sceje/ in a similar compound, even tho' it has a stative verb /stotta/.  I wasn't aware that Quapaw apparently had doublets (with tt/kk) from older -tk-.  That's a nice find.
 
Our server is still awarding John a "spam score" of eight stars.  :-)
 
Bob
 

	-----Original Message----- 
	From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Koontz John E 
	Sent: Thu 7/7/2005 1:14 AM 
	To: Siouan List 
	Cc: John Ludwickson 
	Subject: [Spam:0008 SpamScore] Pa Snuta (Eggheads?)
	
	

	John Ludwickson drew my attention to the Omaha-Ponca legend of the pa
	snuta.  Dorsey, in a letter to the M. Anatole Bamps, published in the
	Proceedings of the International Congress of Americanists, 3rd Session,
	1879, pp. 760-766, mentions them, pp. 760-761.  (There's a lot else of
	interest in this letter, by the way.  It's more or less "email from JOD.")
	
	"The Omaha say that there was once a people in this land before the
	Indians came.  They were the "Pa" Snuta, a tall race, with immense heads
	(oblong).  They were very wise.  They had guns.  They knew not the Great
	Spirit; that is, they used to say, "We will do as we please. The Great
	Spirit has nothing to do with us."  So the Great Spirit at last sent a
	flood upon them to punish them; and all died.  Afterwards the Indians were
	made, and dwelt in this land."
	
	I'm certain I've seen another reference to them, in Howard or maybe
	Fletcher & LaFlesche, but I can't seem to relocate it.  In any event, I
	suspect there are others on the list better qualified to comment on the pa
	snuta as legendary beings and on parallels to them among neighboring
	people.
	
	I've been thinking more about the etymology of pa snuta myself.  I think
	the term must be ppa' snu'tta - pa' snu'ta in the practical orthographies.
	Dorsey essentially glosses this in repeating the description "(they had)
	immense heads (oblong)," which he presumably had from his source(s).  That
	is, ppa' 'head' and snu'tta 'immense (oblong)'.
	
	Snu'tta doesn't occur in the Dorsey texts, or Swetland's UmoNhoN Iye of
	Elizabeth Stabler.  It's easy to think it might have something to do with
	snede' 'long', but that would be an unusual pattern of derivation.
	
	Looking further afield I have found the following in Bob Rankin's
	unpublished lexicons:
	
	Ks sto'sta 'oval, elliptical (JOD), pear shaped (MR)'
	Qu stokka' 'oblong, elliptical'
	
	In the Quapaw entry Bob Rankin includes one of Dorsey's comparisons, which
	is Omaha sno'kka (or snu'kka in the more familiar approach to Omaha-Ponca
	vowels).  The Dorsey texts contain only a small art of the OP vocabulary
	collected by Dorsey.  There seems to have been a lot just plain word
	elicitation and hearing and remembering, too.
	
	Os "snu'-k.a" 'oval, egg-shaped'
	
	This is a LaFlesche form, which as we have discussed before, means
	Omaha-Ponca influenced, and I suspect in Osage guise it would be something
	more like *sto'hka.
	
	Further afield, in Miner's Winnebago Field Lexicon:
	
	Wi soro'c^ 'narrow and high, like pottery shape; be cone-shaped'
	
	In the context, Ken Miner cites a derivative (ks^ee)so'roc^ 'pear', i.e.,
	'elliptical (apple)'.  Elsewhere he lists c^iiso'roc^ 'a tripod house'.
	
	In Jimm Good Tracks Ioway-Otoe-Missouria list I found:
	
	IO t^ro'ka 'egg-shaped, elliptical' (using t^ for theta)
	
	There's a bit bit of variation here in the form of the stems.
	
	*sro'h-ka is suggested by Qu stokka', OP snu'kka, and Osage sto'hka.
	Probably also IO t^ro'ka, though I'd expect something like (?) t^rohka or
	(?) t^rokha in that case.  A PMV form like *srok-ka would also be a
	possibility, but I don't see any evidence for it elsewhere.
	
	The Kaw form sto'sta may be a reduplication *sro'(h)-sro(h).
	
	*srot-ka would explain OP snu'tta.
	
	This is because PMV *tk > PDh *tt.   This is illustrated in forms like OP
	z^a'tta 'forked' < *z^a't-ka vs. Te z^a'ta 'forked', Wi -z^ac^ 'spread out
	at top like a bucket' < *z^a't-(a). For a more organic instance of *tk, or
	at least one more consistantly formed, consider OP we'tta 'egg', Te i'tka,
	Wi hiic^ge', all from *i'tka (or maybe *i't-ka).  OP has a prefixed *wa-,
	a frequent characteristic of unpossessed forms in Dhegiha.
	
	Note that -ka is being used above as a formant for stative verbs, although
	it also appears potentially in *i'tka 'egg' as a noun formant.  (There are
	clear examples of *-ka as a noun formant, but let's not go down that side
	path.)
	
	*sro't- (maybe actually *sro'te or *sro'ta) is suggested by Winnebago
	soroc^ and underlies *sro't-ka, too, of course.
	
	This leads to a possible Dakota congate, which is slo'ta ~ slol', as in
	
	Te slol...ya' 'to know, have knowledge of anything or person', a causative
	formed from the dependent stem slol-.
	
	Buechel also lists
	
	slo'ta, apparently extracted from ie'slota 'one who tells the truth,
	perhaps'.  I believe this turn of phrase means not that the person may or
	may not be telling the truth, but that Buechel is not sure whether 'one
	who tells the truth' is a satisfactory gloss.  I'd suggest 'one who speaks
	knowledgably' as a possibility.
	
	Both these forms are consistent with *srot-, the root suggested in the
	Winnebago, and in OP snu'tta < *sro't-ka in ppa' snu'tta.
	
	This explanation of slolya' may seem a bit odd.  It's not the first
	attested instance of 'egg-headed' as an adjective for 'intelligent' (or
	perhaps 'over-demonstrative of intelligence') in the world, but it might
	seem to be a bit rendolent of European culture. How reasonable it is in
	the context might depend on whether the head is seen as the seat of
	intelligence in Siouan cultures and I don't know if this is true or not.
	However, Dorsey's account of the ppa' snu'tta is also consistant with a
	gloss of 'smart people' or 'people too smart for their own good'.  Since
	snu'tta is so far attested only in this phrase, one might imagine the
	whole phrase to be adapted from some other language, perhaps from a form
	like (Dakotan) *pha slotka, though I don't know of any actual attestation
	of such a form.
	
	
	John E. Koontz
	http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz
	


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Jul  8 18:53:03 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:53:03 -0600
Subject: [Spam:0008 SpamScore] Pa Snuta (Eggheads?)
In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D04C533CE@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.8.JUL.2005.125303.0600.>

On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> If you check under 'pecan' in Quapaw you'll find the more expected
> cognate, /stotta/.  It is the 'oblong nut'.  Kansa uses /sceje/ in a
> similar compound, even tho' it has a stative verb /stotta/.  I wasn't
> aware that Quapaw apparently had doublets (with tt/kk) from older -tk-.
> That's a nice find.

Of course, the credit for finding and preserving the doublets is really
all Bob's and James Dorsey's.

I'd argue that stotta, stokka aren't doublets from *srotka, but reflect,
respectively, *srotka and *srohka.  In other words, this is one of the
numerous cases of alternative "root extensions" that the CSD editors
noticed and that Wes Jones reported on in MALC (and at one of the Siouan &
Caddoan meetings).  There are numerous cases of "core roots" like *CV
'sense X' appearing in different (or the same) language as reflexes of
*CVt, *CVk, *SCV, etc., with 'sense similar to X'.  I think Wes suggests
that these are relicts of earlier derivational or inflectional
morphological behavior that has disappeared leaving only these traces.

The development of *CVh-ka as CVkka in Dhegiha is in line with Bob's
analysis of the origins of *hka as a verb formant in Mississippi Valley.
I thought that the reduplicated stusta form might also suggest *sroh.

I think Bob has suggested that developments like *srotka > stotta in
Dhegiha suggest a history involving metathesis.  This explains why *tk
and *kt both become tt.

Original      *srotka   'egg-shaped'    *pre= kta  'I will go'
Metathesis    *srokta
Assimilation  *srohta                   *pre= hta

Quapaw         stotta                    pde= tta
OP             snutta                    bdhe=tta

This is paralleled by the treatment of *tk in Ioway-Otoe:

Original      *maNaNtku 'bow'
Metathesis     maNaNktu
Assimilation   maNaNhtu

IO             maNaNhdu
Wi             maNaNc^gu

I won't try to remember the IO future, because I seem to recall that it
has special complications.  Basically it, too, reflects *kt as
developments of *ht.


From rankin at ku.edu  Fri Jul  8 19:24:44 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 14:24:44 -0500
Subject: [Spam:0008 SpamScore] Pa Snuta (Eggheads?)
Message-ID: <FRI.8.JUL.2005.142444.0500.>

I think 'drink' is the easiest -tk- word to find good cognates for.

	 
	> I'd argue that stotta, stokka aren't doublets from *srotka, but reflect,
	respectively, *srotka and *srohka.  
	 
	If there is a root *sroh-ka, it should turn up in Dakotan as /slo'kha/ with the usual metathesis.  Perhaps something like /sro'khe/ in Otoe and Ioway.  I haven't checked for any of these.  
	 
	Bob


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Jul  8 23:30:18 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:30:18 -0600
Subject: Pa Snuta (Eggheads?)
In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D04C533D9@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.8.JUL.2005.173018.0600.>

On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> I think 'drink' is the easiest -tk- word to find good cognates for.

Yes - I couldn't think of the clasical example.

> If there is a root *sroh-ka, it should turn up in Dakotan as /slo'kha/
> with the usual metathesis.  Perhaps something like /sro'khe/ in Otoe and
> Ioway.  I haven't checked for any of these.

Well, I'm not too worried if it appears only in one or two languages, in
this case, since I'm not so much creating an entry in the CSD as
explaining a small list of forms, but to continue the analogy, I'd expect
*soroke' in Winnebago.  I guess Mandan would be something like *s^oro ~
*s^orohe.

It's a pity that only -ka binds tightly enough to a stem to form a
preaspirate with a stem final h.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sat Jul  9 20:27:52 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 14:27:52 -0600
Subject: Pa Snuta (Eggheads?)
In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D04C533CE@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.9.JUL.2005.142752.0600.>

On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote:

> If you check under 'pecan' in Quapaw you'll find the more expected
> cognate, /stotta/.  It is the 'oblong nut'.  Kansa uses /sceje/ in a
> similar compound, even tho' it has a stative verb /stotta/.  I wasn't
> aware that Quapaw apparently had doublets (with tt/kk) from older -tk-.
> That's a nice find.

I looked further on Bob's suggestions and found

Qu sto'tta     in wata'stotta 'pecan'

I also found for Kaw

Ks sto'sta     in wada'stosta wac^hiN'
                  'a comic dance performed wearing masks'

We already had sto'sta 'oval, elliptical (JOD), pear shaped (MR)', but the
usual term for pecan is something else.  This does seem to be 'pecan
dance' in some sense.

Following Bob's hint, I also found previous unnoitced (by me)

Os sto'sta     in wata'stosta 'pecan'

I looked for additional *sroh-ka forms without any luck.

I did find *srot-ka in Biloxi

Bi "sditka', sdutka" 'be elliptical'

I checked in Mandan without finding anything, but I did find these Crow
and Hidatsa forms that may be relevant.  Fo rthe sense 'narrow', see Wi
soro'c^ 'narrow hand high, like pottery shape; be cone-shaped'.

Cr chilo'ochi 'slender, slim'
Cr chilu'chi 'narrow (strip)'
Cr chua' 'narrow'

Hi "tsua" 'narrow'   (and "tsua(dsi)" 'narrowish')

The first two forms, which Randy in his list suggested might be doublets,
seem to reflect *srot(e).  The second might be a contraction of *sroh(a),
i.e., *sroha > PCH *ciro(h)a, ciru(h)a > cua.  I'm not  sure if there's
any parallel for loss of -ir- in Dorsey's Law clusters.

However, there was also this pair:

Cr chiwu'sa 'brains'
Hi "tsuata" 'brains'

These seem to suggest PCH *ciwuata 'brains'.  However, I'm not sure if
there is any connection to be drawn to 'narrow', but perhaps the
similarity here might help explain Dakotan (ie)slota, slol(ya).

Incidentally, I've located an additional 'know' form in Dakotan, a Santee
form in Riggs.

Sa sdoc^a' 'to know'  (also sdonya')

I'm not sure how to account for c^ (c^h?) here.  Maybe this is really
sdotya', a variant of sdonya'?

Since Bob Rankin suggested *ratkaN 'to drink' as a tk set:

Da yatkAN'

OP dhattaN' (rest of Dhegiha analogous)

IO rahtaN'  (or perhaps it should be rahdaN' notationally)

Wi rac^gaN"

Apparently this set doesn't extend outside of Mississippi Valley.


From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net  Fri Jul 15 07:14:01 2005
From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 00:14:01 -0700
Subject: FW: 37e Congr=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E8s?= des Algonquinistes/37th
 Algonquian Conference
Message-ID: <FRI.15.JUL.2005.001401.0700.>

just FYI...


Dear Algonquianists,
The first call for papers has just been mailed, and we're busy planning for
October.
Please note that the conference will be held a week earlier than usual this
year, from 21-23 October.
Our website has just been updated to include accommodation information, as
well as print-friendly Registration forms and the Call for Papers:
www.umanitoba.ca/algonquian/registration.pdf
 <http://www.umanitoba.ca/algonquian/registration.pdf>
www.umanitoba.ca/algonquian/CFP2005-Eng.pdf

 <http://www.umanitoba.ca/algonquian/CFP2005-Eng.pdf> Additional information
(including the conference program) will be posted as
it becomes available at www.umanitoba.ca/algonquian
 <http://www.umanitoba.ca/algonquian> Please address any further questions
to the organizer, Marie-Odile Junker mojunker at ccs.carleton.ca
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From are2 at buffalo.edu  Wed Jul 20 21:56:57 2005
From: are2 at buffalo.edu (are2 at buffalo.edu)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:56:57 -0400
Subject: Comparative Grammar workshop
In-Reply-To: <001e01c57c1a$a490bcb0$2bb5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <WED.20.JUL.2005.175657.0400.>

Hey!  I'm just returning to email after baby delivery. I am interested 
in taking on a topic (the articles would be what first comes to mind, 
but Bob is more qualified and has already written on them) for the 
comparative wkshop.  I don't care where but some time to prepare would 
be good.
-Ardis

PS My little Siouanist info:
Beatrice Grace
7lb 14 oz
21"
6/20/05
Healthy and already 10 lbs.


Quoting "R. Rankin" <rankin at ku.edu>:

> Yes, the 2 Johns and I are keeping track.  We'd like 
> lists of suggestions for topics, I think.  It shouldn't 
> be up to us to make such decisions -- we're just trying 
> to organize what comes in.  Once we have a pretty good 
> list of topics, we can list 'em all and people can 
> volunteer then.
> 
> Speaking only for myself, I still like the idea of 
> Billings.             Bob
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> 
> > Is someone (e.g. Bob or John B.) keeping track of all 
> > the people
> > who have said they want to be included and/or 
> > volunteer to do "chapters"?
> > Yes, it could be reconstructed later, but it'd be a 
> > lot easier to do it
> > now.  Volunteer "secretary"?
> 
> 
> 


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Jul 21 19:09:21 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:09:21 -0500
Subject: Comparative Grammar workshop
Message-ID: <THU.21.JUL.2005.140921.0500.>

Congratulations, Ardis!!  

I assume people are cogitating over the list of possible topics still,
as the list has been quiet lately.  Sometime soon we ought to begin
putting the topic list together.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of are2 at buffalo.edu
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 4:57 PM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: Re: Comparative Grammar workshop


Hey!  I'm just returning to email after baby delivery. I am interested 
in taking on a topic (the articles would be what first comes to mind, 
but Bob is more qualified and has already written on them) for the 
comparative wkshop.  I don't care where but some time to prepare would 
be good.
-Ardis

PS My little Siouanist info:
Beatrice Grace
7lb 14 oz
21"
6/20/05
Healthy and already 10 lbs.


Quoting "R. Rankin" <rankin at ku.edu>:

> Yes, the 2 Johns and I are keeping track.  We'd like
> lists of suggestions for topics, I think.  It shouldn't 
> be up to us to make such decisions -- we're just trying 
> to organize what comes in.  Once we have a pretty good 
> list of topics, we can list 'em all and people can 
> volunteer then.
> 
> Speaking only for myself, I still like the idea of 
> Billings.             Bob
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> 
> > Is someone (e.g. Bob or John B.) keeping track of all
> > the people
> > who have said they want to be included and/or 
> > volunteer to do "chapters"?
> > Yes, it could be reconstructed later, but it'd be a 
> > lot easier to do it
> > now.  Volunteer "secretary"?
> 
> 
> 


From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu  Fri Jul 22 18:02:12 2005
From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:02:12 -0500
Subject: Comparative Grammar workshop
Message-ID: <FRI.22.JUL.2005.130212.0500.>

congratulations!   Now we can stop refering to baby as "it" and switch to "she".  
 
We're pretty much free the next few weeks (and very un-free after Aug. 22, when classes start).  Would love to see you & Beatrice whenever it would work for you.  Are you in Walthill?  
Catherine

>>> are2 at buffalo.edu 7/20/2005 4:56 PM >>>

 ...
Beatrice Grace
7lb 14 oz
21"
6/20/05
Healthy and already 10 lbs.


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From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu  Fri Jul 22 18:05:00 2005
From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:05:00 -0500
Subject: Comparative Grammar workshop
Message-ID: <FRI.22.JUL.2005.130500.0500.>

Sorry sorry sorry!  someday I WILL learn to check the "to" box before hitting "send".
 

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